From jay at asis.com Thu Jan 1 21:23:34 2015 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2015 18:23:34 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] wire sizing question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Happy new year all. I have a question on wire sizing for the following. 250 amp breaker, in a UL enclosure ( say midnite or outback etc) conduit from battery box to enclosure I'm wondering how folks size this for ampacity not voltage drop. thanks jay peltz power From ray at solarray.com Fri Jan 2 17:12:17 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2015 15:12:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] wire sizing question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54A717C1.4060905@solarray.com> Some other things: If you keep the conduit less than 24" long, which is recommended anyway for main battery connections, the conduit fill requirements don't apply. (see exception: 310.15(B)3a2) Using table 310.15(B)16 yeilds 230 amps for 4/0 at 75 C. Then 240.6 lists 250 amp as the next standard size of OCPD which is allowed to be used by 240.4(B) So you can just justify 4/0. Further, many manufacturers (like Midnite) use the open air ampacity table: 310.15(B)17, since the cable is not "in conduit" and 4/0 cable at 75 C is rated to 360 amps. The Free Air interpretation is not completely substantiated in the code from my read of it though. Maybe someone more knowledgable could cite the chapter and verse that defines when the free air rating can and cannot be used. Also remember those breakers are 100% duty cycle rated, and that the inverter usually can't run any where close to 250 amps continuously. Bottomline is we've been using 4/0 with 250 amp breakers for almost 20 years, and I've never seen or heard of a problem. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/1/2015 7:23 PM, jay peltz wrote: > Happy new year all. > > I have a question on wire sizing for the following. > > 250 amp breaker, in a UL enclosure ( say midnite or outback etc) > conduit from battery box to enclosure > > I'm wondering how folks size this for ampacity not voltage drop. > > thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From ray at solarray.com Fri Jan 2 13:33:13 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2015 11:33:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] wire sizing question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54A6E469.10100@solarray.com> We just always use 4/0 X flex cable with a 250 amp breaker, and call it good. (2/0 with a 175 A breaker) If you want to make life really hard, you can look at the trip curve of the breaker (Heinnemans have 3 different trip curves depending on the model I believe) and then do all the normal NEC sizing calcs (conduit fill, etc), end up buying 250 MCM that isn't flexible, break off a battery terminal trying to land the cable, then possibly damage a breaker trying to land it in the enclosure, not to mention figuring out how to get 250 MCM to land on those lugs, so you special order some type of reducing lug...... Actually, I just checked the MTW X flex we use, and its rated to 105 C, so that helps, although the temp rating of the terminals on the Midnite Breakers is only 75 C. One other thing, the batteries usually aren't UL listed anyway, so at least part of the circuit is already falling into NEC grey area anyway. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/1/2015 7:23 PM, jay peltz wrote: > Happy new year all. > > I have a question on wire sizing for the following. > > 250 amp breaker, in a UL enclosure ( say midnite or outback etc) > conduit from battery box to enclosure > > I'm wondering how folks size this for ampacity not voltage drop. > > thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri Jan 2 18:17:17 2015 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2015 15:17:17 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] wire sizing question In-Reply-To: <54A717C1.4060905@solarray.com> References: <54A717C1.4060905@solarray.com> Message-ID: 4/0 copper is good for a 24V, 4000 W inverter. What is being used for multiple inverters? I've paralleled 4/0 into outback boxes using 2, 2" PVC conduits. It gets pretty messy trying to put 4 sets of 4/0s into enclosures and battery boxes (although I have worked on such systems). Does anyone have clean solutions for these systems? Thanks, Drake > Some other things: If you keep the conduit less than 24" long, which is > recommended anyway for main battery connections, the conduit fill > requirements don't apply. (see exception: 310.15(B)3a2) > Using table 310.15(B)16 yeilds 230 amps for 4/0 at 75 C. Then 240.6 > lists 250 amp as the next standard size of OCPD which is allowed to be > used by 240.4(B) So you can just justify 4/0. > Further, many manufacturers (like Midnite) use the open air ampacity > table: 310.15(B)17, since the cable is not "in conduit" and 4/0 cable at > 75 C is rated to 360 amps. > The Free Air interpretation is not completely substantiated in the code > from my read of it though. Maybe someone more knowledgable could cite > the chapter and verse that defines when the free air rating can and > cannot be used. > Also remember those breakers are 100% duty cycle rated, and that the > inverter usually can't run any where close to 250 amps continuously. > Bottomline is we've been using 4/0 with 250 amp breakers for almost 20 > years, and I've never seen or heard of a problem. > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > On 1/1/2015 7:23 PM, jay peltz wrote: >> Happy new year all. >> >> I have a question on wire sizing for the following. >> >> 250 amp breaker, in a UL enclosure ( say midnite or outback etc) >> conduit from battery box to enclosure >> >> I'm wondering how folks size this for ampacity not voltage drop. >> >> thanks >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From larry at starlightsolar.com Fri Jan 2 17:10:18 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Larry) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2015 15:10:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] wire sizing question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54A7174A.90000@starlightsolar.com> Jay, Divide inverter capacity by LVD then divide by full load efficiency. Example: 4000 Watt inverter shuts down at 42 volts, efficiency 85% = 4000/42 = 95A/.85 = 111 Amps. Then it depends on the insulation and conductor type and the corrections for ambient temp. How can you not consider voltage drop? This is important for the surge capability of inverters. If the battery-inverter run is long you could have significant voltage drop for a wire correctly rated for ampacity. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On 1/1/15 7:23 PM, jay peltz wrote: > Happy new year all. > > I have a question on wire sizing for the following. > > 250 amp breaker, in a UL enclosure ( say midnite or outback etc) > conduit from battery box to enclosure > > I'm wondering how folks size this for ampacity not voltage drop. > > thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Jan 2 17:38:32 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2015 12:38:32 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] wire sizing question In-Reply-To: <54A7174A.90000@starlightsolar.com> References: <54A7174A.90000@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Here here always include surge and voltage drop. On Jan 2, 2015 12:10 PM, "Larry" wrote: > Jay, > > Divide inverter capacity by LVD then divide by full load efficiency. > Example: 4000 Watt inverter shuts down at 42 volts, efficiency 85% = > 4000/42 = 95A/.85 = 111 Amps. Then it depends on the insulation and > conductor type and the corrections for ambient temp. > > How can you not consider voltage drop? This is important for the surge > capability of inverters. If the battery-inverter run is long you could have > significant voltage drop for a wire correctly rated for ampacity. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > On 1/1/15 7:23 PM, jay peltz wrote: > >> Happy new year all. >> >> I have a question on wire sizing for the following. >> >> 250 amp breaker, in a UL enclosure ( say midnite or outback etc) >> conduit from battery box to enclosure >> >> I'm wondering how folks size this for ampacity not voltage drop. >> >> thanks >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Sat Jan 3 11:16:03 2015 From: Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com (Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2015 08:16:03 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] wire sizing question In-Reply-To: References: <54A717C1.4060905@solarray.com> Message-ID: Hi: This link takes you to a site in Romania so you (likely) wont be able to read the text, but it does have a lot of good pictures. This installer has been using XW since about 2007 and has a tons of experience. I like what he does with the DC wiring/busbars. The breakers are in the box below the inverters and charge controllers. http://customer.lpelectric.ro/doc/sibiu2/sibiu2_28kw_fotovoltaic.html JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | CANADA | Training & Development Specialist - Senior Phone: +604-422-2528 | Fax: +604-420-1591 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.SEsolar.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org To: "RE-wrenches" , Date: 01/02/2015 05:18 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] wire sizing question Sent by: "RE-wrenches" 4/0 copper is good for a 24V, 4000 W inverter. What is being used for multiple inverters? I've paralleled 4/0 into outback boxes using 2, 2" PVC conduits. It gets pretty messy trying to put 4 sets of 4/0s into enclosures and battery boxes (although I have worked on such systems). Does anyone have clean solutions for these systems? Thanks, Drake > Some other things: If you keep the conduit less than 24" long, which is > recommended anyway for main battery connections, the conduit fill > requirements don't apply. (see exception: 310.15(B)3a2) > Using table 310.15(B)16 yeilds 230 amps for 4/0 at 75 C. Then 240.6 > lists 250 amp as the next standard size of OCPD which is allowed to be > used by 240.4(B) So you can just justify 4/0. > Further, many manufacturers (like Midnite) use the open air ampacity > table: 310.15(B)17, since the cable is not "in conduit" and 4/0 cable at > 75 C is rated to 360 amps. > The Free Air interpretation is not completely substantiated in the code > from my read of it though. Maybe someone more knowledgable could cite > the chapter and verse that defines when the free air rating can and > cannot be used. > Also remember those breakers are 100% duty cycle rated, and that the > inverter usually can't run any where close to 250 amps continuously. > Bottomline is we've been using 4/0 with 250 amp breakers for almost 20 > years, and I've never seen or heard of a problem. > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > On 1/1/2015 7:23 PM, jay peltz wrote: >> Happy new year all. >> >> I have a question on wire sizing for the following. >> >> 250 amp breaker, in a UL enclosure ( say midnite or outback etc) >> conduit from battery box to enclosure >> >> I'm wondering how folks size this for ampacity not voltage drop. >> >> thanks >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 14092 bytes Desc: not available URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Sat Jan 3 13:48:59 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Larry) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2015 11:48:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] wire sizing question In-Reply-To: References: <54A717C1.4060905@solarray.com> Message-ID: <54A8399B.3030709@starlightsolar.com> Wow, Jarmo! That is some incredible workmanship and a great way to interconnect multiple inverters and chargers. You can tell they have done this a few times. Thanks for sharing those photos. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On 1/3/15 9:16 AM, Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com wrote: > Hi: > > This link takes you to a site in Romania so you (likely) wont be able > to read the text, but it does have a lot of good pictures. > > This installer has been using XW since about 2007 and has a tons of > experience. I like what he does with the DC wiring/busbars. The > breakers are in the box below the inverters and charge controllers. > > http://customer.lpelectric.ro/doc/sibiu2/sibiu2_28kw_fotovoltaic.html > > JARMO > _____________________________________________________________________________________ > * > Jarmo Venalainen* | *Schneider Electric **| Solar Business* | > *CANADA* | *Training & Development Specialist - Senior* * > Phone:* +604-422-2528 | *Fax:* +604-420-1591 | *Mobile:* +604-505-0291 * > Email:* _jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com_ > | > *Site:*_www.SEsolar.com_ | *Address:* 3700 > Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 > _ > _ > *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail > > > > From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org > To: "RE-wrenches" , > Date: 01/02/2015 05:18 PM > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] wire sizing question > Sent by: "RE-wrenches" > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > 4/0 copper is good for a 24V, 4000 W inverter. What is being used for > multiple inverters? > > I've paralleled 4/0 into outback boxes using 2, 2" PVC conduits. It gets > pretty messy trying to put 4 sets of 4/0s into enclosures and battery > boxes (although I have worked on such systems). Does anyone have clean > solutions for these systems? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > > > > > > Some other things: If you keep the conduit less than 24" long, which is > > recommended anyway for main battery connections, the conduit fill > > requirements don't apply. (see exception: 310.15(B)3a2) > > Using table 310.15(B)16 yeilds 230 amps for 4/0 at 75 C. Then 240.6 > > lists 250 amp as the next standard size of OCPD which is allowed to be > > used by 240.4(B) So you can just justify 4/0. > > Further, many manufacturers (like Midnite) use the open air ampacity > > table: 310.15(B)17, since the cable is not "in conduit" and 4/0 cable at > > 75 C is rated to 360 amps. > > The Free Air interpretation is not completely substantiated in the code > > from my read of it though. Maybe someone more knowledgable could cite > > the chapter and verse that defines when the free air rating can and > > cannot be used. > > Also remember those breakers are 100% duty cycle rated, and that the > > inverter usually can't run any where close to 250 amps continuously. > > Bottomline is we've been using 4/0 with 250 amp breakers for almost 20 > > years, and I've never seen or heard of a problem. > > > > R.Ray Walters > > CTO, Solarray, Inc > > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > > Licensed Master Electrician > > Solar Design Engineer > > 303 505-8760 > > > > On 1/1/2015 7:23 PM, jay peltz wrote: > >> Happy new year all. > >> > >> I have a question on wire sizing for the following. > >> > >> 250 amp breaker, in a UL enclosure ( say midnite or outback etc) > >> conduit from battery box to enclosure > >> > >> I'm wondering how folks size this for ampacity not voltage drop. > >> > >> thanks > >> > >> jay > >> > >> peltz power > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List-Archive: > >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >> > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 14092 bytes Desc: not available URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Sat Jan 3 17:58:17 2015 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2015 14:58:17 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] wire sizing question In-Reply-To: <54A8399B.3030709@starlightsolar.com> References: <54A717C1.4060905@solarray.com> <54A8399B.3030709@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <54A87409.6050604@berkeleysolar.com> Yes, beautiful. But I am still trying to figure out if it is NEC compliant. At first pass, it seems like it is missing a few disconnecting means. On 1/3/2015 10:48 AM, Larry wrote: > Wow, Jarmo! That is some incredible workmanship and a great way to > interconnect multiple inverters and chargers. You can tell they have > done this a few times. Thanks for sharing those photos. > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > On 1/3/15 9:16 AM, Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com wrote: >> Hi: >> >> This link takes you to a site in Romania so you (likely) wont be able >> to read the text, but it does have a lot of good pictures. >> >> This installer has been using XW since about 2007 and has a tons of >> experience. I like what he does with the DC wiring/busbars. The >> breakers are in the box below the inverters and charge controllers. >> >> http://customer.lpelectric.ro/doc/sibiu2/sibiu2_28kw_fotovoltaic.html >> >> JARMO >> _____________________________________________________________________________________ >> * >> Jarmo Venalainen* | *Schneider Electric ** | Solar Business* | >> *CANADA* | *Training & Development Specialist - Senior* * >> Phone:* +604-422-2528 | *Fax:* +604-420-1591 | *Mobile:* >> +604-505-0291 * >> Email:* _jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com_ >> | >> *Site:*_www.SEsolar.com_ | *Address:* 3700 >> Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 >> _ >> _ >> *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail >> >> >> >> From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org >> To: "RE-wrenches" , >> Date: 01/02/2015 05:18 PM >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] wire sizing question >> Sent by: "RE-wrenches" >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> >> 4/0 copper is good for a 24V, 4000 W inverter. What is being used for >> multiple inverters? >> >> I've paralleled 4/0 into outback boxes using 2, 2" PVC conduits. It gets >> pretty messy trying to put 4 sets of 4/0s into enclosures and battery >> boxes (although I have worked on such systems). Does anyone have clean >> solutions for these systems? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> >> >> >> >> >> > Some other things: If you keep the conduit less than 24" long, >> which is >> > recommended anyway for main battery connections, the conduit fill >> > requirements don't apply. (see exception: 310.15(B)3a2) >> > Using table 310.15(B)16 yeilds 230 amps for 4/0 at 75 C. Then 240.6 >> > lists 250 amp as the next standard size of OCPD which is allowed to be >> > used by 240.4(B) So you can just justify 4/0. >> > Further, many manufacturers (like Midnite) use the open air ampacity >> > table: 310.15(B)17, since the cable is not "in conduit" and 4/0 >> cable at >> > 75 C is rated to 360 amps. >> > The Free Air interpretation is not completely substantiated in the code >> > from my read of it though. Maybe someone more knowledgable could cite >> > the chapter and verse that defines when the free air rating can and >> > cannot be used. >> > Also remember those breakers are 100% duty cycle rated, and that the >> > inverter usually can't run any where close to 250 amps continuously. >> > Bottomline is we've been using 4/0 with 250 amp breakers for almost 20 >> > years, and I've never seen or heard of a problem. >> > >> > R.Ray Walters >> > CTO, Solarray, Inc >> > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> > Licensed Master Electrician >> > Solar Design Engineer >> > 303 505-8760 >> > >> > On 1/1/2015 7:23 PM, jay peltz wrote: >> >> Happy new year all. >> >> >> >> I have a question on wire sizing for the following. >> >> >> >> 250 amp breaker, in a UL enclosure ( say midnite or outback etc) >> >> conduit from battery box to enclosure >> >> >> >> I'm wondering how folks size this for ampacity not voltage drop. >> >> >> >> thanks >> >> >> >> jay >> >> >> >> peltz power >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> List-Archive: >> >> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> > >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 14092 bytes Desc: not available URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Sat Jan 3 18:39:07 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2015 16:39:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] wire sizing question In-Reply-To: <54A87409.6050604@berkeleysolar.com> References: <54A717C1.4060905@solarray.com> <54A8399B.3030709@starlightsolar.com> <54A87409.6050604@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: <54A87D9B.9090805@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 14092 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay at asis.com Sat Jan 3 10:10:21 2015 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2015 07:10:21 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] wire sizing question In-Reply-To: References: <54A717C1.4060905@solarray.com> Message-ID: HI Drake I don't use the FW 500 boxes, which I'm guessing you are using. ( the FW 1000 are ok for larger wire combos) because either I'm going with a single inverter (E panel) or radian. The other way I also run paralleled wires is with larger conduit. I suggest you check out midnight for some big battery cabling boxes. jay peltz power On Jan 2, 2015, at 3:17 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > 4/0 copper is good for a 24V, 4000 W inverter. What is being used for > multiple inverters? > > I've paralleled 4/0 into outback boxes using 2, 2" PVC conduits. It gets > pretty messy trying to put 4 sets of 4/0s into enclosures and battery > boxes (although I have worked on such systems). Does anyone have clean > solutions for these systems? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > > > > >> Some other things: If you keep the conduit less than 24" long, which is >> recommended anyway for main battery connections, the conduit fill >> requirements don't apply. (see exception: 310.15(B)3a2) >> Using table 310.15(B)16 yeilds 230 amps for 4/0 at 75 C. Then 240.6 >> lists 250 amp as the next standard size of OCPD which is allowed to be >> used by 240.4(B) So you can just justify 4/0. >> Further, many manufacturers (like Midnite) use the open air ampacity >> table: 310.15(B)17, since the cable is not "in conduit" and 4/0 cable at >> 75 C is rated to 360 amps. >> The Free Air interpretation is not completely substantiated in the code >> from my read of it though. Maybe someone more knowledgable could cite >> the chapter and verse that defines when the free air rating can and >> cannot be used. >> Also remember those breakers are 100% duty cycle rated, and that the >> inverter usually can't run any where close to 250 amps continuously. >> Bottomline is we've been using 4/0 with 250 amp breakers for almost 20 >> years, and I've never seen or heard of a problem. >> >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 > From dana at solarwork.com Mon Jan 5 12:58:57 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2015 10:58:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Horizontal axis Message-ID: <018f01d02911$47851030$d68f3090$@com> Hey All Long time off list - Does anyone have any decent recommendations on low wattage - horizontal axis washing machines? I have (2) off-grid clients that are at the end of their Fisher Paykal machines life (140-160 watthours per load) & I did not know what to recommend as it has been a long time since I have been asked this question. As always thanks in advance. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 - No FAX Line "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solar1online at charter.net Mon Jan 5 14:44:35 2015 From: solar1online at charter.net (Bill Loesch) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2015 13:44:35 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Horizontal axis In-Reply-To: <018f01d02911$47851030$d68f3090$@com> References: <018f01d02911$47851030$d68f3090$@com> Message-ID: <54AAE9A3.4010800@charter.net> Hi Dana, The best illustration for low power consumption Horizontal Axis washers are what are referred to as "apartment sized" units in the American trade. These European machines are smaller (and accordingly use less power than the poorly executed (IMHO) jumbo North American clones. Both ASKO and Miele ( Swedish and German respectively) make low power and water consumption machines that spin the clothes at up to 2,000 rpm (last time I looked) to truly minimize drying. Unfortunately, ASKO has recently adopted the American marketing approach to re brand a Korean manufactured American style washer to serve the less well informed consumer and deteriorate their own brand name. To the best of my knowledge ASKO still manufacturers their own "apartment size" units. Look at the gasket that the door closes on in the European models and then the American version, then judge for yourself. Caveat emptor, Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 On 05-Jan-15 11:58 AM, Dana wrote: > > Hey All Long time off list – > > Does anyone have any decent recommendations on low wattage - > horizontal axis washing machines? > > I have (2) off-grid clients that are at the end of their Fisher Paykal > machines life (140-160 watthours per load) & I did not know what to > recommend as it has been a long time since I have been asked this > question. > > As always thanks in advance. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > *Dana Orzel* > > _Great Solar Works, Inc - *NABCEP # 051112-136*_ > > *E*- dana at solarwork.com - *Web* - solarwork.com > > *O*- 970.626.5253 *C *- 208.721.7003 - No FAX Line > > *_"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" _**__* > > *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2015.0.5577 / Virus Database: 4257/8875 - Release Date: 01/05/15 > ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5577 / Virus Database: 4257/8875 - Release Date: 01/05/15 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daniel at greenwired.com Mon Jan 5 17:59:21 2015 From: daniel at greenwired.com (Dan Tittmann) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2015 15:59:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Horizontal axis In-Reply-To: <018f01d02911$47851030$d68f3090$@com> References: <018f01d02911$47851030$d68f3090$@com> Message-ID: Dana- this came from another RE-wrencher a few weeks ago. it doesn't have kWh / load but other good info. Hope this helps Daniel http://enervee.com/washers/ Daniel Tittmann CTO Greenwired www.greenwired.com daniel at greenwired.com 707-923-2001 (office) 707-206-5088 (Cell) On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 10:58 AM, Dana wrote: > Hey All Long time off list – > > > > Does anyone have any decent recommendations on low wattage - horizontal > axis washing machines? > > I have (2) off-grid clients that are at the end of their Fisher Paykal > machines life (140-160 watthours per load) & I did not know what to > recommend as it has been a long time since I have been asked this question. > > > > As always thanks in advance. > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > *Dana Orzel* > > *Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136* > > *E* - dana at solarwork.com - *Web* - solarwork.com > > *O* - 970.626.5253 *C *- 208.721.7003 - No FAX Line > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Mon Jan 5 20:16:08 2015 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2015 17:16:08 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] CPF Tools and other proposal tool options In-Reply-To: <54AAE9A3.4010800@charter.net> References: <018f01d02911$47851030$d68f3090$@com> <54AAE9A3.4010800@charter.net> Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, For the last couple of years we have been licensing CPF Tools and OnGrid to create PV proposals. Our sales reps are now almost exclusively using CPF Tools. Anyway, lately I understand that CPF (Clean Power Finance) is no longer offering phone or email support for those of us who only use their tool and not their finance option. Has any other wrench experienced this? We have noticed a couple of calculation glitches and need to get them fixed ASAP but have no one to contact. If anyone has a CPF contact they would be willing to share that would be great too. Separately, what proposal tool software are Wrenches using these days? Any recommendations? If we can’t find a way to get some support from CPF we will need to switch to another tool. Thanks as always and happy new year! Best, August Luminalt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rich at solartechvt.com Mon Jan 5 19:36:24 2015 From: rich at solartechvt.com (Rich Nicol) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2015 19:36:24 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Horizontal axis In-Reply-To: <018f01d02911$47851030$d68f3090$@com> References: <018f01d02911$47851030$d68f3090$@com> Message-ID: <009501d02948$d2ae5950$780b0bf0$@com> Hi Dana I'm researching washing machines for my off grid home - check out the attached link which is updated on a monthly basis by CEE (Consortium for Energy Efficiency) http://library.cee1.org/sites/default/files/library/9268/2014_December_CEE_R esidentialClothesWashers.pdf Rich From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dana Sent: Monday, January 05, 2015 12:59 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Horizontal axis Hey All Long time off list - Does anyone have any decent recommendations on low wattage - horizontal axis washing machines? I have (2) off-grid clients that are at the end of their Fisher Paykal machines life (140-160 watthours per load) & I did not know what to recommend as it has been a long time since I have been asked this question. As always thanks in advance. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 - No FAX Line "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solar1online at charter.net Tue Jan 6 15:31:36 2015 From: solar1online at charter.net (Bill Loesch) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2015 14:31:36 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Horizontal axis In-Reply-To: <018f01d02911$47851030$d68f3090$@com> References: <018f01d02911$47851030$d68f3090$@com> Message-ID: <54AC4628.2070006@charter.net> Hi again, Dana, Don't overlook the Staber top loading horizontal axis washer. staber.com Made in America since 1993. When Home Power reviewed the product some time ago, the issue of inclusion in the "side by side" comparison done by supposedly independent organizations came up and the omission of Staber and others by these testers was "justified" by "not a major player". I guess Tesla is not a major player in the auto world but is unquestionably a trendsetter, not unlike Staber. Best wishes, stay warm, Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 On 05-Jan-15 11:58 AM, Dana wrote: > > Hey All Long time off list – > > Does anyone have any decent recommendations on low wattage - > horizontal axis washing machines? > > I have (2) off-grid clients that are at the end of their Fisher Paykal > machines life (140-160 watthours per load) & I did not know what to > recommend as it has been a long time since I have been asked this > question. > > As always thanks in advance. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > *Dana Orzel* > > _Great Solar Works, Inc - *NABCEP # 051112-136*_ > > *E*- dana at solarwork.com - *Web* - solarwork.com > > *O*- 970.626.5253 *C *- 208.721.7003 - No FAX Line > > *_"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" _**__* > > *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2015.0.5577 / Virus Database: 4257/8875 - Release Date: 01/05/15 > ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5577 / Virus Database: 4257/8882 - Release Date: 01/06/15 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Wed Jan 7 10:45:51 2015 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (Chris Daum) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 08:45:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24V Zephyr Vent Fan from a Magnum MS4024PAE inverter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear folks: Has anyone hooked up a battery vent fan, being turned on and off using just a Magnum MS4024PAE inverter? Is there some AUX output that can be used? Thanks as always for your help! Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ntrei at 1scom.net Wed Jan 7 13:12:43 2015 From: ntrei at 1scom.net (Solarguy) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 12:12:43 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery cabinet Message-ID: <005401d02aa5$8819b160$984d1420$@1scom.net> On 12/23/2014 3:11 AM, Tom Lane wrote: > Does anyone have a source for a small 20aH battery / small controller outdoor battery box . GatorTom PS : Merry Christmas > DDB unlimited sent a list of overstock cabinets but they don't list them on their www site. Probably an email request will get an updated copy. Jim Duncan http://www.ddbunlimited.com/site-map.html Part no. Qty Disc Price Reg Price RU's Description OD-50DXC 1 $1,259.00 26 50"H x 25"W x 25"D Cream OD-62DX 8 $1,327.00 $1,721.00 33 62"H x 25"W x 25"D Unpainted PNOD-192420 17 $ 555.00 $913.00 9 19"H X 24"W X 20"D Cream PNOD-102420 4 $ 475.00 $847.00 5 11"H X 24"W X 20"D Cream PBOD-162018 3 $ 500.00 $901.00 NA 16"H X 20"W X 18"D Cream AC-2400I-H-GY 6 $1,200.00 $1626.00 NA 2400 BTU 110V (1 year in house warranty) AC-6000I2-H 6 $1,550.00 $1995.00 NA 6000 BTU 220V (1 year in house warranty) AC-5500I2-H-GY 10 $ 999.00 $1786.00 NA 5500 BTU 220V GREY(2 Year Warranty) AC-4000I2-H-GY 9 $1,391.00 $1,600.00 NA 4000 BTU 220V GREY (2 Year Warranty) AC-6000I-H 1 $1,499.00 $1,995.00 NA 6000 BTU 110V (1 year in house warranty) 39-M 9 $1,075.00 $1,575.00 20 39"H x 27"W x 25"D OUTDOOR ENCLOSURE, CREAM 39-CTS-2LOD-LS 10 $2,200.00 $3,102.66 20 39"H x 27"W x 25"D OUTDOOR ASSEMBLY, CREAM R6-30DXCW-RFK 19 $1,600.00 $2,875.00 15 RETROFIT UNIT (FOR STACKING ON R7-50 OR R7-54) DDB-RACK 19KIT 100 $300.00 $823.00 45 84" STEEL INDOOR RACK KIT. (CALL FOR DETAILS) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Wed Jan 7 17:25:55 2015 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 15:25:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24V Zephyr Vent Fan from a Magnum MS4024PAE inverter In-Reply-To: <54AD9D99.7070309@solarray.com> References: <54AD9D99.7070309@solarray.com> Message-ID: Hi Chris, If you have a Magnum router in this system, you do have access to an aux contact otherwise you'll need an external relay. Good luck On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 1:56 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > The Magnums do not have relays available like the old SWs, but you can > run a Zephyr directly from either a Outback FM controller or a Midnite > Classic. Both have a controlled 200 mA, 12 output. I've had occasional > trouble running the Zephyr because as weird as this sounds: the fan can > have a start up surge that exceeds 200 mA. Its like sizing a water pump > for mice.....you still have to look at the locked rotor current and surge > current. With the Midnite Classic, it will just shut off the 12 v output > if it exceeds 200 mA, and it doesn't seem to have an error message or > warning. > You could also use a Simple Switch, or other voltage controlled switching > device (C40, Tristar, Solar Converters, etc) > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 > > On 1/7/2015 8:45 AM, Chris Daum wrote: > > Dear folks: > > Has anyone hooked up a battery vent fan, being turned on and off using > just a Magnum MS4024PAE inverter? Is there some AUX output that can be > used? > > Thanks as always for your help! > > Chris Daum > Oasis Montana Inc. > 406-777-4309 > www.oasismontana.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gbaxter at sensata.com Wed Jan 7 18:23:24 2015 From: gbaxter at sensata.com (Baxter, Gary) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 23:23:24 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24V Zephyr Vent Fan from a Magnum MS4024PAE inverter In-Reply-To: References: <54AD9D99.7070309@solarray.com> Message-ID: Hi Chris, All the aux relays are voltage controlled so not sure what setting you would use to activate the fan? I would assume you are trying to turn the fan on based on high temperature in an enclosure or something so battery voltage wouldn’t be a good indicator. We have military and vehicle applications that use +12 or 24v to the fan via an adjustable t-stat. Check Grainger under HVAC t-stats, this one is around $25 Gary [Adjustable Fan Switch,90-130] CompareView Compare · GRAINGER APPROVED VENDOR · Adjustable From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mac Lewis Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2015 2:26 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 24V Zephyr Vent Fan from a Magnum MS4024PAE inverter Hi Chris, If you have a Magnum router in this system, you do have access to an aux contact otherwise you'll need an external relay. Good luck On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 1:56 PM, Ray Walters > wrote: The Magnums do not have relays available like the old SWs, but you can run a Zephyr directly from either a Outback FM controller or a Midnite Classic. Both have a controlled 200 mA, 12 output. I've had occasional trouble running the Zephyr because as weird as this sounds: the fan can have a start up surge that exceeds 200 mA. Its like sizing a water pump for mice.....you still have to look at the locked rotor current and surge current. With the Midnite Classic, it will just shut off the 12 v output if it exceeds 200 mA, and it doesn't seem to have an error message or warning. You could also use a Simple Switch, or other voltage controlled switching device (C40, Tristar, Solar Converters, etc) R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/7/2015 8:45 AM, Chris Daum wrote: Dear folks: Has anyone hooked up a battery vent fan, being turned on and off using just a Magnum MS4024PAE inverter? Is there some AUX output that can be used? Thanks as always for your help! Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 www.oasismontana.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5233 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Wed Jan 7 18:34:37 2015 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 16:34:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24V Zephyr Vent Fan from a Magnum MS4024PAE inverter In-Reply-To: References: <54AD9D99.7070309@solarray.com> Message-ID: Yes, with the 24V fan, you will need to run battery power (or another 24VDC source) through the contacts. That's the reason I opt for 12V vent fans typically, so they can be served with the 12VDC Aux source from the charge controller. On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 3:26 PM, jay peltz wrote: > The router version magnum remote has a dry contact relay > ME-RTR > > Jay > Peltz power. > > > > > On Jan 7, 2015, at 10:56 AM, Ray Walters wrote: > > The Magnums do not have relays available like the old SWs, but you can run > a Zephyr directly from either a Outback FM controller or a Midnite > Classic. Both have a controlled 200 mA, 12 output. I've had occasional > trouble running the Zephyr because as weird as this sounds: the fan can > have a start up surge that exceeds 200 mA. Its like sizing a water pump > for mice.....you still have to look at the locked rotor current and surge > current. With the Midnite Classic, it will just shut off the 12 v output > if it exceeds 200 mA, and it doesn't seem to have an error message or > warning. > You could also use a Simple Switch, or other voltage controlled switching > device (C40, Tristar, Solar Converters, etc) > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 > > On 1/7/2015 8:45 AM, Chris Daum wrote: > > Dear folks: > > Has anyone hooked up a battery vent fan, being turned on and off using > just a Magnum MS4024PAE inverter? Is there some AUX output that can be > used? > > Thanks as always for your help! > > Chris Daum > Oasis Montana Inc. > 406-777-4309 > www.oasismontana.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Jan 7 15:56:57 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2015 13:56:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24V Zephyr Vent Fan from a Magnum MS4024PAE inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54AD9D99.7070309@solarray.com> The Magnums do not have relays available like the old SWs, but you can run a Zephyr directly from either a Outback FM controller or a Midnite Classic. Both have a controlled 200 mA, 12 output. I've had occasional trouble running the Zephyr because as weird as this sounds: the fan can have a start up surge that exceeds 200 mA. Its like sizing a water pump for mice.....you still have to look at the locked rotor current and surge current. With the Midnite Classic, it will just shut off the 12 v output if it exceeds 200 mA, and it doesn't seem to have an error message or warning. You could also use a Simple Switch, or other voltage controlled switching device (C40, Tristar, Solar Converters, etc) R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/7/2015 8:45 AM, Chris Daum wrote: > Dear folks: > Has anyone hooked up a battery vent fan, being turned on and off using > just a Magnum MS4024PAE inverter? Is there some AUX output that can > be used? > Thanks as always for your help! > Chris Daum > Oasis Montana Inc. > 406-777-4309 > www.oasismontana.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gbaxter at sensata.com Wed Jan 7 18:15:05 2015 From: gbaxter at sensata.com (Baxter, Gary) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 23:15:05 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery cabinet In-Reply-To: <005401d02aa5$8819b160$984d1420$@1scom.net> References: <005401d02aa5$8819b160$984d1420$@1scom.net> Message-ID: [Accessories and Parts] You might try these. This is a "trailer breakaway battery box" . these are made to mount on the tongue of a trailer (so water proof) and carry a small battery to activate the trailer breaks in case it comes loose from the tow vehicle. These are like $10 available at RV and Marine stores. They come in different sizes I believe here is a link to a supplier online. http://www.etrailer.com/Accessories-and-Parts/Titan/TN65117.html Gary From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Solarguy Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2015 10:13 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery cabinet On 12/23/2014 3:11 AM, Tom Lane wrote: > Does anyone have a source for a small 20aH battery / small controller outdoor battery box . GatorTom PS : Merry Christmas > DDB unlimited sent a list of overstock cabinets but they don't list them on their www site. Probably an email request will get an updated copy. Jim Duncan http://www.ddbunlimited.com/site-map.html Part no. Qty Disc Price Reg Price RU's Description OD-50DXC 1 $1,259.00 26 50"H x 25"W x 25"D Cream OD-62DX 8 $1,327.00 $1,721.00 33 62"H x 25"W x 25"D Unpainted PNOD-192420 17 $ 555.00 $913.00 9 19"H X 24"W X 20"D Cream PNOD-102420 4 $ 475.00 $847.00 5 11"H X 24"W X 20"D Cream PBOD-162018 3 $ 500.00 $901.00 NA 16"H X 20"W X 18"D Cream AC-2400I-H-GY 6 $1,200.00 $1626.00 NA 2400 BTU 110V (1 year in house warranty) AC-6000I2-H 6 $1,550.00 $1995.00 NA 6000 BTU 220V (1 year in house warranty) AC-5500I2-H-GY 10 $ 999.00 $1786.00 NA 5500 BTU 220V GREY(2 Year Warranty) AC-4000I2-H-GY 9 $1,391.00 $1,600.00 NA 4000 BTU 220V GREY (2 Year Warranty) AC-6000I-H 1 $1,499.00 $1,995.00 NA 6000 BTU 110V (1 year in house warranty) 39-M 9 $1,075.00 $1,575.00 20 39"H x 27"W x 25"D OUTDOOR ENCLOSURE, CREAM 39-CTS-2LOD-LS 10 $2,200.00 $3,102.66 20 39"H x 27"W x 25"D OUTDOOR ASSEMBLY, CREAM R6-30DXCW-RFK 19 $1,600.00 $2,875.00 15 RETROFIT UNIT (FOR STACKING ON R7-50 OR R7-54) DDB-RACK 19KIT 100 $300.00 $823.00 45 84" STEEL INDOOR RACK KIT. (CALL FOR DETAILS) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2352 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From jay at asis.com Wed Jan 7 17:26:46 2015 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 12:26:46 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24V Zephyr Vent Fan from a Magnum MS4024PAE inverter In-Reply-To: <54AD9D99.7070309@solarray.com> References: <54AD9D99.7070309@solarray.com> Message-ID: The router version magnum remote has a dry contact relay ME-RTR Jay Peltz power. > On Jan 7, 2015, at 10:56 AM, Ray Walters wrote: > > The Magnums do not have relays available like the old SWs, but you can run a Zephyr directly from either a Outback FM controller or a Midnite Classic. Both have a controlled 200 mA, 12 output. I've had occasional trouble running the Zephyr because as weird as this sounds: the fan can have a start up surge that exceeds 200 mA. Its like sizing a water pump for mice.....you still have to look at the locked rotor current and surge current. With the Midnite Classic, it will just shut off the 12 v output if it exceeds 200 mA, and it doesn't seem to have an error message or warning. > You could also use a Simple Switch, or other voltage controlled switching device (C40, Tristar, Solar Converters, etc) > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > On 1/7/2015 8:45 AM, Chris Daum wrote: >> Dear folks: >> >> Has anyone hooked up a battery vent fan, being turned on and off using just a Magnum MS4024PAE inverter? Is there some AUX output that can be used? >> >> Thanks as always for your help! >> >> Chris Daum >> Oasis Montana Inc. >> 406-777-4309 >> www.oasismontana.com >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Thu Jan 8 01:09:32 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2015 23:09:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24V Zephyr Vent Fan from a Magnum MS4024PAE inverter In-Reply-To: References: <54AD9D99.7070309@solarray.com> Message-ID: <54AE1F1C.1030904@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daniel at greenwired.com Wed Jan 7 19:02:01 2015 From: daniel at greenwired.com (Dan Tittmann) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 17:02:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24V Zephyr Vent Fan from a Magnum MS4024PAE inverter In-Reply-To: References: <54AD9D99.7070309@solarray.com> Message-ID: If you are trying to run the fan while the magnum is charging you can just run a 12V converter run your zephyr off of the ac power supply or just get a small ac fan. If you are trying to run it when charging from other sources look for the AUX relays in the charge controllers like the above mentioned options. Daniel Daniel Tittmann CTO Greenwired www.greenwired.com daniel at greenwired.com 707-923-2001 (office) 707-206-5088 (Cell) On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 3:25 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi Chris, > > If you have a Magnum router in this system, you do have access to an aux > contact otherwise you'll need an external relay. > > Good luck > > On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 1:56 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > >> The Magnums do not have relays available like the old SWs, but you can >> run a Zephyr directly from either a Outback FM controller or a Midnite >> Classic. Both have a controlled 200 mA, 12 output. I've had occasional >> trouble running the Zephyr because as weird as this sounds: the fan can >> have a start up surge that exceeds 200 mA. Its like sizing a water pump >> for mice.....you still have to look at the locked rotor current and surge >> current. With the Midnite Classic, it will just shut off the 12 v output >> if it exceeds 200 mA, and it doesn't seem to have an error message or >> warning. >> You could also use a Simple Switch, or other voltage controlled switching >> device (C40, Tristar, Solar Converters, etc) >> >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 >> >> On 1/7/2015 8:45 AM, Chris Daum wrote: >> >> Dear folks: >> >> Has anyone hooked up a battery vent fan, being turned on and off using >> just a Magnum MS4024PAE inverter? Is there some AUX output that can be >> used? >> >> Thanks as always for your help! >> >> Chris Daum >> Oasis Montana Inc. >> 406-777-4309 >> www.oasismontana.com >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From windsine at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 19:39:00 2015 From: windsine at gmail.com (Windsine Inc.) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 18:39:00 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24V Zephyr Vent Fan from a Magnum MS4024PAE inverter In-Reply-To: <54AE1F1C.1030904@sindelarsolar.com> References: <54AD9D99.7070309@solarray.com> <54AE1F1C.1030904@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: If you do not have auxiliary relays to work with, try looking up FumeOut by LSL Products. They make a nice vent fan with a dedicated voltage controller. Only downside is it does not have a back draft damper such as the zephyr does. But it uses 2" pvc so if you wanted to get creative and make a back draft damper it wouldn't be so hard. RoyR On Jan 8, 2015 5:21 PM, "Allan Sindelar" wrote: > Gary, > No, the fan is turned on to forcibly exhaust gasses released by charging, > rather than based on temperature, so voltage-based control is exactly > what's desired. Take a look at www.zephyrvent.com; that's what we're > addressing. > Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* > > > On 1/7/2015 4:23 PM, Baxter, Gary wrote: > > Hi Chris, > > All the aux relays are voltage controlled so not sure what setting you > would use to activate the fan? I would assume you are trying to turn the > fan on based on high temperature in an enclosure or something so battery > voltage wouldn’t be a good indicator. We have military and vehicle > applications that use +12 or 24v to the fan via an adjustable t-stat. Check > Grainger under HVAC t-stats, this one is around $25 > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Jan 8 20:07:25 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2015 18:07:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24V Zephyr Vent Fan from a Magnum MS4024PAE inverter In-Reply-To: References: <54AD9D99.7070309@solarray.com> <54AE1F1C.1030904@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <54AF29CD.3080401@solarray.com> Interesting but the price puts higher than a Zephyr and a Solar Converters Simple Switch, which is about the same thing with a backdraft preventer. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/8/2015 5:39 PM, Windsine Inc. wrote: > > If you do not have auxiliary relays to work with, try looking up > FumeOut by LSL Products. They make a nice vent fan with a dedicated > voltage controller. Only downside is it does not have a back draft > damper such as the zephyr does. But it uses 2" pvc so if you wanted to > get creative and make a back draft damper it wouldn't be so hard. > > RoyR > > On Jan 8, 2015 5:21 PM, "Allan Sindelar" > wrote: > > Gary, > No, the fan is turned on to forcibly exhaust gasses released by > charging, rather than based on temperature, so voltage-based > control is exactly what's desired. Take a look at > www.zephyrvent.com ; that's what we're > addressing. > Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > On 1/7/2015 4:23 PM, Baxter, Gary wrote: >> >> Hi Chris, >> >> All the aux relays are voltage controlled so not sure what >> setting you would use to activate the fan? I would assume you are >> trying to turn the fan on based on high temperature in an >> enclosure or something so battery voltage wouldn’t be a good >> indicator. We have military and vehicle applications that use +12 >> or 24v to the fan via an adjustable t-stat. Check Grainger under >> HVAC t-stats, this one is around $25 >> >> Gary >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Jan 8 11:15:30 2015 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2015 11:15:30 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24V Zephyr Vent Fan from a Magnum MS4024PAE inverter In-Reply-To: References: <54AD9D99.7070309@solarray.com> Message-ID: <20150108161549.6823A37A065@homiemail-a80.g.dreamhost.com> I recommend using the AUX relays to trigger a separate relay which will pass current from the DC source to the fan. In this case you would want to use a 24 V vent fan. With this system, the higher the voltage the faster the fan. The AUX relay will never be subject to overcurrent, and the fan will be more powerful. At 07:02 PM 1/7/2015, you wrote: >If you are trying to run the fan while the >magnum is charging you can just run a 12V >converter run your zephyr off of the ac power >supply or just get a small ac fan. If you are >trying to run it when charging from other >sources look for the AUX relays in the charge >controllers like the above mentioned options. >Daniel > >Daniel Tittmann >CTO >Greenwired >www.greenwired.com >daniel at greenwired.com >707-923-2001 (office) >707-206-5088 (Cell) > >On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 3:25 PM, Mac Lewis ><maclewis1 at gmail.com> wrote: >Hi Chris, > >If you have a Magnum router in this system, you >do have access to an aux contact otherwise you'll need an external relay. > >Good luck > >On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 1:56 PM, Ray Walters ><ray at solarray.com> wrote: >The Magnums do not have relays available like >the old SWs, but you can run a Zephyr directly >from either a Outback FM controller or a Midnite >Classic. Both have a controlled 200 mA, 12 >output. I've had occasional trouble running >the Zephyr because as weird as this sounds: the >fan can have a start up surge that exceeds 200 >mA. Its like sizing a water pump for >mice.....you still have to look at the locked >rotor current and surge current. With the >Midnite Classic, it will just shut off the 12 v >output if it exceeds 200 mA, and it doesn't seem >to have an error message or warning. >You could also use a Simple Switch, or other >voltage controlled switching device (C40, Tristar, Solar Converters, etc) > >R.Ray Walters > >CTO, Solarray, Inc > >Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > >Licensed Master Electrician > >Solar Design Engineer > >303 505-8760 >On 1/7/2015 8:45 AM, Chris Daum wrote: >>Dear folks: >> >>Has anyone hooked up a battery vent fan, being >>turned on and off using just a Magnum MS4024PAE >>inverter? Is there some AUX output that can be used? >> >>Thanks as always for your help! >> >>Chris Daum >>Oasis Montana Inc. >>406-777-4309 >>www.oasismontana.com >> >> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >> >>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >>List Address: >>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >>Change listserver email address & settings: >> >>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >>List-Archive: >>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >>List rules & etiquette: >> >>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >>Check out or update participant bios: >> >>www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > >-- > > > >Mac Lewis > >"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at independentpowerllc.com Tue Jan 13 17:17:01 2015 From: dave at independentpowerllc.com (Dave) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 17:17:01 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wireless First Alert Smoke Alarms on OutBack inverter power Message-ID: <01bb01d02f7e$a7da22e0$f78e68a0$@com> I have an off grid home remodeling project that includes installing new hardwired, with 9v battery backup, smoke detectors (First Alert One Link). Tested them today and they did not work well on OutBack inverter power. These are wireless smokes that communicate with one another. They all begin to give false "smoke" alarms when on AC power, tested three times with same results. When disconnected from AC they operate fine on their battery power. Is this a case of inverter power incompatibility? David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-888-7194 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Jan 14 03:41:44 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 22:41:44 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wireless First Alert Smoke Alarms on OutBack inverter power In-Reply-To: <01bb01d02f7e$a7da22e0$f78e68a0$@com> References: <01bb01d02f7e$a7da22e0$f78e68a0$@com> Message-ID: is the inverter in the "ON" or "Search" mode on the mate, I have had some noise issues when in the search mode with audio equipment Jerry On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 12:17 PM, Dave wrote: > I have an off grid home remodeling project that includes installing new > hardwired, with 9v battery backup, smoke detectors (First Alert One Link). > Tested them today and they did not work well on OutBack inverter power. > These are wireless smokes that communicate with one another. They all begin > to give false "smoke" alarms when on AC power, tested three times with same > results. When disconnected from AC they operate fine on their battery power. > > > > Is this a case of inverter power incompatibility? > > > > David Palumbo > > Independent Power LLC > > 462 Solar Way Drive > > Hyde Park, VT 05655 > > 802-888-7194 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Wed Jan 14 05:05:21 2015 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 03:05:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wireless First Alert Smoke Alarms on OutBack inverter power In-Reply-To: References: <01bb01d02f7e$a7da22e0$f78e68a0$@com> Message-ID: That's an astute question Jerry. Search mode on any inverter brand can cause all sorts of problems with a variety of unexpected non-RE plain normal consumer equipment. Better to set search mode off, and instruct non-full-time residents to push the button to turn the inverter itself off when they leave and push it on when they are up there to their second home or remote cabin. But also I've seen more than a few problems with hardwired smoke and CO detectors and also GFCI outlets on off-grid inverters, search mode off and completely non-related. My guess is that "wireless" smokes doesn't mean wifi, it means injecting signals on the AC lines, and my next guess is the waveform and response of the off-grid inverter is the cause of your problems, as that injected signal doesn't come through pure. I think I'd first pull the AC bypass breakers, run generator or utility direct for a true sine wave, and see if the problem persists. Best. Dan Fink Buckville Energy IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 1:41 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > is the inverter in the "ON" or "Search" mode on the mate, I have had some > noise issues when in the search mode with audio equipment > Jerry > > On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 12:17 PM, Dave > wrote: > >> I have an off grid home remodeling project that includes installing new >> hardwired, with 9v battery backup, smoke detectors (First Alert One Link). >> Tested them today and they did not work well on OutBack inverter power. >> These are wireless smokes that communicate with one another. They all begin >> to give false "smoke" alarms when on AC power, tested three times with same >> results. When disconnected from AC they operate fine on their battery power. >> >> >> >> Is this a case of inverter power incompatibility? >> >> >> >> David Palumbo >> >> Independent Power LLC >> >> 462 Solar Way Drive >> >> Hyde Park, VT 05655 >> >> 802-888-7194 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at independentpowerllc.com Wed Jan 14 07:05:01 2015 From: dave at independentpowerllc.com (Dave) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 07:05:01 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wireless First Alert Smoke Alarms on OutBack inverter power In-Reply-To: References: <01bb01d02f7e$a7da22e0$f78e68a0$@com> Message-ID: <003201d02ff2$53968970$fac39c50$@com> Jerry, Inverters (2 VFX 3624's) are ON. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Shafer Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 3:42 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Wireless First Alert Smoke Alarms on OutBack inverter power is the inverter in the "ON" or "Search" mode on the mate, I have had some noise issues when in the search mode with audio equipment Jerry On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 12:17 PM, Dave wrote: I have an off grid home remodeling project that includes installing new hardwired, with 9v battery backup, smoke detectors (First Alert One Link). Tested them today and they did not work well on OutBack inverter power. These are wireless smokes that communicate with one another. They all begin to give false "smoke" alarms when on AC power, tested three times with same results. When disconnected from AC they operate fine on their battery power. Is this a case of inverter power incompatibility? David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-888-7194 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Mon Jan 12 23:15:33 2015 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2015 20:15:33 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar DHW References: <54AD9D99.7070309@solarray.com> <20150108161549.6823A37A065@homiemail-a80.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Wrenches, Occasionally I get wrangled into doing hot water. I used to source stuff from Solar Depot, but they are gone. For those wrenches in the NE California area, I would appreciate leads on suppliers for thermal panels, tanks (with heat exchangers), circ pumps, etc. Is UMA a candidate? Thanks for any tips. leads. Bill Feather River Solar Electric 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 / 6544 fax www.frenergy.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Jan 14 19:44:02 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 14:44:02 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar DHW In-Reply-To: References: <54AD9D99.7070309@solarray.com> <20150108161549.6823A37A065@homiemail-a80.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Bill I have only used Heliodyne for my collectors for now over 20 years, my tanks are an external wrapped heat exchanger tank as I recall is solar Aid, pumps grundfus from PACE or Calsteam and control from Steca as you may see we're not a "KIT" operation we use what works and makes for a clean install. Good Luck Jerry On Mon, Jan 12, 2015 at 6:15 PM, frenergy wrote: > Wrenches, > > Occasionally I get wrangled into doing hot water. I used to > source stuff from Solar > Depot, but they are gone. For those wrenches in the NE California area, I > would appreciate leads on suppliers for thermal panels, tanks (with heat > exchangers), circ pumps, etc. Is UMA a candidate? > > Thanks for any tips. leads. > > Bill > Feather River Solar Electric > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 / 6544 fax > www.frenergy.net > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From deant at dcn.davis.ca.us Wed Jan 14 21:30:00 2015 From: deant at dcn.davis.ca.us (Dean T. Newberry) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 18:30:00 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar DHW In-Reply-To: References: <54AD9D99.7070309@solarray.com> <20150108161549.6823A37A065@homiemail-a80.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <024b01d0306b$298b66e0$7ca234a0$@dcn.davis.ca.us> Hi Bill, We have purchased the Rheem Sol Pak from Cal Steam in Sacramento. Dean T. Newberry 216 F St. #132 Davis, CA 95616 (530) 753-1900 deant at talbottsolar.com http://www.talbottsolar.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of frenergy Sent: Monday, January 12, 2015 8:16 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar DHW Wrenches, Occasionally I get wrangled into doing hot water. I used to source stuff from Solar Depot, but they are gone. For those wrenches in the NE California area, I would appreciate leads on suppliers for thermal panels, tanks (with heat exchangers), circ pumps, etc. Is UMA a candidate? Thanks for any tips. leads. Bill Feather River Solar Electric 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 / 6544 fax www.frenergy.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lars at cal-solar.com Thu Jan 15 14:30:02 2015 From: lars at cal-solar.com (Lars Ortegren) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 11:30:02 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Extreme snow load ground mount? Message-ID: Wrenches, I have a fun one for you. We have a couple of potential clients who live in the high Sierra with a 420 LB design snow load. After hunting around, not even a three rail system comes close with any module I can find, so now I'm looking for a pole top that will dump the snow, and still handle 120 mph winds. Any ideas? I would just say sorry, no solar for you,but like many of you I love a challenge. -- *Lars Örtegren/ **President* [image: California Solar Electric Company] PO Box 480/149 E.Main St Grass Valley, CA 95945 Phone : (530)274-3671 Fax: (530)274-7518 *California C-10 Electrical Contractor #779624* ATTENTION This E-mail may contain CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended only for the use of the Individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient of this E-mail, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination or copying this E-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this E-mail in error, please immediately notify us by telephone at * (530)274-3671* or E-mail l ars at cal-solar.com or contact at cal-solar.com. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daniel at greenwired.com Thu Jan 15 14:55:42 2015 From: daniel at greenwired.com (Dan Tittmann) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 12:55:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar DHW In-Reply-To: References: <54AD9D99.7070309@solarray.com> <20150108161549.6823A37A065@homiemail-a80.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: http://www.solarhotwaterplus.com/ these guys are great. I have worked with them many times in the past and like every time. Not NE CA but NW CA hope it is close enough. Cheers- Daniel Daniel Tittmann CTO Greenwired www.greenwired.com daniel at greenwired.com 707-923-2001 (office) 707-206-5088 (Cell) On Mon, Jan 12, 2015 at 9:15 PM, frenergy wrote: > Wrenches, > > Occasionally I get wrangled into doing hot water. I used to > source stuff from Solar > Depot, but they are gone. For those wrenches in the NE California area, I > would appreciate leads on suppliers for thermal panels, tanks (with heat > exchangers), circ pumps, etc. Is UMA a candidate? > > Thanks for any tips. leads. > > Bill > Feather River Solar Electric > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 / 6544 fax > www.frenergy.net > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay at asis.com Thu Jan 15 13:44:34 2015 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 08:44:34 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] California wrenches PG&E In-Reply-To: <003201d02ff2$53968970$fac39c50$@com> References: <01bb01d02f7e$a7da22e0$f78e68a0$@com> <003201d02ff2$53968970$fac39c50$@com> Message-ID: <6D08120D-2DC6-4FF5-A419-44C8B9DDA253@asis.com> HI All, I've got someone who might want a really big array for his house, something above the 30kW form for PG&E. ( he wants 65kW) I'm looking for any information etc on larger interconnection tips, advice etc for dealing with PG&E thanks in advance. jay peltz power jay at asis.com From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Fri Jan 16 09:32:27 2015 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 09:32:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] SW4024 In-Reply-To: References: <54AD9D99.7070309@solarray.com> Message-ID: <11a63c10d677a71150cd156b2037c687.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> Hi all, I know this is a real shot in the dark, but is there a possibility someone out there has an SW4024 for sale. I have an off grid client whose has a major issue. Because they are off grid, they do not want to send the inverter off to be fixed and have to run their generator for a couple of weeks. If anyone has one, or possibly a lead, please contact me off list. Thanks, Daryl DeJoy NABCEP Certified PV installer Penobscot Solar Design www.penobscotsolar.com (207) 326-0779 From gseelhorst at gmail.com Fri Jan 16 12:31:49 2015 From: gseelhorst at gmail.com (Gregory Seelhorst) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 11:31:49 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TL Inverters & Rapid Shutdown In-Reply-To: <005101cfe3df$d657bc80$83073580$@com> References: <116701cfe236$d9be1c20$8d3a5460$@com> <41FE255D65D554478C3B17F3EB5410EF911F901A@SVR-US-EXMBX-01.sma.de> <005101cfe3df$d657bc80$83073580$@com> Message-ID: Wrenches - I wanted to bring up the topic of SMA TL inverters, SPS outlets, and Rapid Shutdown function. In light of some AHJs where the 2014 NEC is already in effect, I would appreciate how anyone has insight on how to address the topics below: *Re: SPS integrated outlet* - Citing 2014 NEC 690.61 and 690.10(B), is there any resistance to SMA's Technical paper on the topic (attached) and what is being done to appease them or make corrections any notices. Also would appreciate if you have suggestions on warning placards (to the effect of ‘this outlet only works when the switch is in the ‘ON’ position, inverter will not backfeed in the ‘OFF’ position), please contact me off-line if you like. *Re: Rapid Shutdown function* – It has come to my attention that there is (or soon to be) a Rapid Shutdown capability function which will comply with 690.12. The question being, *can or must this be used in conjunction with the SPS?* Just wanted clarification of this functionality. My understanding is that if other Rapid Shutdown devices (DC contactors, Midnite Solar relays, etc.) are used, the SPS function can not be used. My question is that *if the Rapid Shutdown function is optional or a requirement when deploying the SPS function.* Regards, Greg Seelhorst On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 11:41 AM, Randy wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > We are being forced to adopt 690.12 Rapid Shutdown requirement based on > several explanations given to our industry: > > 1. otherwise we would be ignoring the life safety and put our fire > fighters lives in peril > > 2. This product can be constructed from readily available, > over-the-counter code compliant components. This (is) to be the intent > of CMP4 when compiling the NFPA 70. > > > > We do not want to act like an industry that appears to be fighting against > safety. And we know there are a few products that are code compliant, > micro-inverters (don’t comply with 705.12 (D) (6) because there are no > products), Solaredge, and Tigo (is it approved?) yet this is not how we > choose products. > > > > And the SMA SPS inverter is not going to work in a 690.12 environment > without complications as far as I can see. > > > > Appreciate comments that might support the right decision. > > > > Thanks, > > Randy > > > > Randy Sadewic > > Cell: 505 570-0137 > > Randy at PositiveEnergySolar.com > > > > [image: > http://positiveenergysolar.com/admin/content/uploads/PES-logo-3.jpg] > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Steve Jefferson > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 07, 2014 8:33 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] TL Inverters > > > > The first gen of TL’s did have a somewhat tight window for the DC window. > > > > However, the new SBxxxxTL-US-22 (3kW – 7700kW, with secure power supply) > Start Voltage is 125, MPPT is 175-480 (max of 600Vdc) > > > > Also, for larger needs, the STP (12kW – 24kW) start voltage is 150, MPPT > is 300-800V (max of 1000Vdc). > > > > SMA America, LLC > > Steve Jefferson > > Service Line Supervisor > > 3925 Atherton Ave > > Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714 > > U.S.A. > > Tel: +1 916 625 3185 (direct) > > Fax: +1 916 625 0871 > > Mobile: +1 916 622 4253 > > Email: Steve.jefferson at SMA-America.com > > www.SMA-America.com > > > > [image: cid:image001.png at 01CF1CFA.FE18BEB0] > > > > > This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC > confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the > intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or > any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not > the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and > permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any > attachments thereto. Thank you. > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of *Mark Byington > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 07, 2014 6:59 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] TL Inverters > > > > > > Just a word of caution to those not having experience with SMA TL > inverters - the larger units (7-11 kW) have an extremely narrow input DC > voltage window. Depending on your module voltage and string design, all > you need is a module or two to be shaded to fall out of the MPPT input > voltage range. The smaller units (3-5 kW) with the Secure Power Supply > don't have this problem. We no longer use these larger SMA TL inverters > unless we can do maximum string length (e.g. strings of 8 for SunPower > 96-cell) and there is zero shade at the site. > > > > I believe SMA is in the process of adding larger units to the line that > has the Secure Power Supply. They added the 6 kW unit earlier this year, > and just announced the 7 kW unit with Secure Power Supply. > > > > Mark Byington > > Cobalt Power Systems, Inc. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6339 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.png Type: image/png Size: 30736 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EPS-US-TB-en-11.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 310532 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EPSCompl-US-TB-en-13W.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 353383 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com Fri Jan 16 11:29:42 2015 From: jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com (James Rudolph) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 06:29:42 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fall Protection Equipment Message-ID: Aloha my Wrench Brothers! We have a recent defector from a very large National Solar company here that brought in this great Fall gear (see attachment). To be honest it blew my mind how simple and light it was....Is anybody else using this rock climbing equipment as fall protection gear? Is this approved by OSHA. You would figure if humans just free climbed El Capitain with gear like this it would do just fine keeping me safe and compliant at 6 feet and above. The rope grab is made by KONG. Mahalo in advance! James Rudolph Haleakala Solar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20150114_074111.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 682193 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Jan 16 22:25:17 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 17:25:17 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] California wrenches PG&E In-Reply-To: <00a101d03205$aa0405c0$fe0c1140$@millersolar.com> References: <01bb01d02f7e$a7da22e0$f78e68a0$@com> <003201d02ff2$53968970$fac39c50$@com> <6D08120D-2DC6-4FF5-A419-44C8B9DDA253@asis.com> <00a101d03205$aa0405c0$fe0c1140$@millersolar.com> Message-ID: Well when you get that large the 3 phase makes a difference On Jan 16, 2015 5:23 PM, "William Miller" wrote: > Friends: > > > > I would hesitate before offering three phase to a residential > installation. Well pumps, booster bumps and other appliance, if configured > for 230 volts do not operate well with 208 volts. They may work but you > reduce your margin for voltage drop. > > > > William > > > > > > [image: Gradient Cap_mini] > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jerry Shafer > *Sent:* Friday, January 16, 2015 7:00 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] California wrenches PG&E > > > > Its been some time but we did a large residental system we brought in 3 > phase to make it happen it was in pg&e teratory and the main was a 800 amp, > we also added a 50 k genny > > On Jan 16, 2015 4:54 PM, "jay peltz" wrote: > > HI All, > > I've got someone who might want a really big array for his house, > something above the 30kW form for PG&E. > ( he wants 65kW) > > I'm looking for any information etc on larger interconnection tips, > advice etc for dealing with PG&E > > thanks in advance. > > jay > > peltz power > jay at asis.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Jan 16 21:59:31 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 16:59:31 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] California wrenches PG&E In-Reply-To: <6D08120D-2DC6-4FF5-A419-44C8B9DDA253@asis.com> References: <01bb01d02f7e$a7da22e0$f78e68a0$@com> <003201d02ff2$53968970$fac39c50$@com> <6D08120D-2DC6-4FF5-A419-44C8B9DDA253@asis.com> Message-ID: Its been some time but we did a large residental system we brought in 3 phase to make it happen it was in pg&e teratory and the main was a 800 amp, we also added a 50 k genny On Jan 16, 2015 4:54 PM, "jay peltz" wrote: > HI All, > > I've got someone who might want a really big array for his house, > something above the 30kW form for PG&E. > ( he wants 65kW) > > I'm looking for any information etc on larger interconnection tips, > advice etc for dealing with PG&E > > thanks in advance. > > jay > > peltz power > jay at asis.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Jan 16 22:28:28 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 19:28:28 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] California wrenches PG&E In-Reply-To: References: <01bb01d02f7e$a7da22e0$f78e68a0$@com> <003201d02ff2$53968970$fac39c50$@com> <6D08120D-2DC6-4FF5-A419-44C8B9DDA253@asis.com> Message-ID: <00a101d03205$aa0405c0$fe0c1140$@millersolar.com> Friends: I would hesitate before offering three phase to a residential installation. Well pumps, booster bumps and other appliance, if configured for 230 volts do not operate well with 208 volts. They may work but you reduce your margin for voltage drop. William Gradient Cap_mini Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Shafer Sent: Friday, January 16, 2015 7:00 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] California wrenches PG&E Its been some time but we did a large residental system we brought in 3 phase to make it happen it was in pg&e teratory and the main was a 800 amp, we also added a 50 k genny On Jan 16, 2015 4:54 PM, "jay peltz" wrote: HI All, I've got someone who might want a really big array for his house, something above the 30kW form for PG&E. ( he wants 65kW) I'm looking for any information etc on larger interconnection tips, advice etc for dealing with PG&E thanks in advance. jay peltz power jay at asis.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Fri Jan 16 23:43:20 2015 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 21:43:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar DHW In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <117BE61B-5860-417D-AE44-BF693C92515A@gmail.com> Bill, I'm based in Southern Colorado, so unfortunately don't have personal experience with NE CA distributors, but having said that, I would recommend giving SunEarth a call. They make top-notch harp-style collectors in So Cal, and they private label a host of other Solar Thermal components, including Steca controllers. The folks I have talked to from their sales team are friendly and helpful and I'm sure they can tell you who in your area distributes their stuff. They might even sell to you directly. I prefer Resol controllers for our thermal projects and have found that Alpha Thermal Systems in Massachusetts is the place to get those controls. They also distribute PAW pumpstations and will ship for a reasonable price. Best, -Luke > > Wrenches, > > Occasionally I get wrangled into doing hot water. I used to source stuff from Solar > Depot, but they are gone. For those wrenches in the NE California area, I would appreciate leads on suppliers for thermal panels, tanks (with heat exchangers), circ pumps, etc. Is UMA a candidate? > > Thanks for any tips. leads. > > Bill > Feather River Solar Electric > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 / 6544 fax > www.frenergy.net Luke Christy NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 CoSEIA Certified PV Installer Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO. 81144 SGSRenewables at Gmail.com 719.588.3044 www.sgsrenewables.com From frenergy at psln.com Sat Jan 17 00:03:09 2015 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 21:03:09 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] California wrenches PG&E References: <01bb01d02f7e$a7da22e0$f78e68a0$@com><003201d02ff2$53968970$fac39c50$@com> <6D08120D-2DC6-4FF5-A419-44C8B9DDA253@asis.com> Message-ID: <15C387CC0CEF4EB2A621F08CFF462F32@D8XG8YH1> Jay, Is this an existing home or to-be-built home? PG&E hasn't let me run anything bigger than 10% over the customer's last 12 months average monthly consumption through their interconnection/engineering. If this is a yet to be built home, the system size will need justification before its approved for interconnection. And 65KW, that sounds like a new transformer...they don't give those away. $18K was the last figure they gave to me. Bill Taylorsville ----- Original Message ----- From: "jay peltz" To: "RE-wrenches" Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2015 10:44 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] California wrenches PG&E > HI All, > > I've got someone who might want a really big array for his house, > something above the 30kW form for PG&E. > ( he wants 65kW) > > I'm looking for any information etc on larger interconnection tips, advice > etc for dealing with PG&E > > thanks in advance. > > jay > > peltz power > jay at asis.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From frenergy at psln.com Sat Jan 17 00:17:11 2015 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 21:17:11 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Extreme snow load ground mount? References: Message-ID: <1DA6EEF412B74037B59D3B6DEE418EC8@D8XG8YH1> Lars, Yes, the only way you can even consider an install like this is a pole mount, with a steep tilt in the winter to shed most of the snow. It would help to know if the place will be used in the winter or summer and how big of an array in KW or Sq Ft. Customer would have to understand that you cannot guarantee it...there are some combinations of wind-snow-temp-moisture that make snow cling to anything. If this is permitted, start dropping off cookies to an engineer. Bill Where the Sierra meets the Cascades ----- Original Message ----- From: Lars Ortegren To: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2015 11:30 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Extreme snow load ground mount? Wrenches, I have a fun one for you. We have a couple of potential clients who live in the high Sierra with a 420 LB design snow load. After hunting around, not even a three rail system comes close with any module I can find, so now I'm looking for a pole top that will dump the snow, and still handle 120 mph winds. Any ideas? I would just say sorry, no solar for you,but like many of you I love a challenge. -- Lars Örtegren/ President PO Box 480/149 E.Main St Grass Valley, CA 95945 Phone : (530)274-3671 Fax: (530)274-7518 California C-10 Electrical Contractor #779624 ATTENTION This E-mail may contain CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended only for the use of the Individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient of this E-mail, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination or copying this E-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this E-mail in error, please immediately notify us by telephone at (530)274-3671 or E-mail lars at cal-solar.com or contact at cal-solar.com. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay at asis.com Sat Jan 17 00:38:38 2015 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 19:38:38 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] California wrenches PG&E In-Reply-To: References: <01bb01d02f7e$a7da22e0$f78e68a0$@com> <003201d02ff2$53968970$fac39c50$@com> <6D08120D-2DC6-4FF5-A419-44C8B9DDA253@asis.com> <00a101d03205$aa0405c0$fe0c1140$@millersolar.com> Message-ID: <14B57666-5108-4580-AE10-129A3A734F28@asis.com> I am just asking about any advice for the paperwork process above 30kW with pg&e as I've never done one this large for a residence. Customer has a standard 400 amp 240v single phase connection. Thanks Jay Peltz power > On Jan 16, 2015, at 5:25 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Well when you get that large the 3 phase makes a difference > >> On Jan 16, 2015 5:23 PM, "William Miller" wrote: >> Friends: >> >> >> >> I would hesitate before offering three phase to a residential installation. Well pumps, booster bumps and other appliance, if configured for 230 volts do not operate well with 208 volts. They may work but you reduce your margin for voltage drop. >> >> >> >> William >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Lic 773985 >> millersolar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Sat Jan 17 01:20:07 2015 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 23:20:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fall Protection Equipment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: James, This looks like a pretty nice lanyard w/ shock-absorber, rope-grab and rope. What type/style harness did he bring along? Re: OSHA approved...great question. Prior to looking into it further I'd suspect it falls in a "grey area". Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 > On Jan 16, 2015, at 9:29 AM, James Rudolph wrote: > > Aloha my Wrench Brothers! > We have a recent defector from a very large National Solar company here that brought in this great Fall gear (see attachment). To be honest it blew my mind how simple and light it was....Is anybody else using this rock climbing equipment as fall protection gear? Is this approved by OSHA. > > You would figure if humans just free climbed El Capitain with gear like this it would do just fine keeping me safe and compliant at 6 feet and above. > > The rope grab is made by KONG. > > > Mahalo in advance! > > James Rudolph > Haleakala Solar > > <20150114_074111.jpeg> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From danbob88 at gmail.com Sat Jan 17 08:28:23 2015 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 06:28:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fall Protection Equipment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: James; There may be some specific rock climbing items that can be used, but everything for the workplace should be ANSI approved; rock climbing gear is UIAA approved but may have both. You'll need to look up each piece of equipment to see if it meets OSHA tensile strength requirements. As for the harness, it MUST be a full body harness with back and/or chest D-ring. Also note how different the two activities and types of potential falls are -- rock climbing gear is designed for light weight, constant mobility, multiple anchors, longer falls (dynamic rope) and falls from weird angles (as in a fall that is both horizontal and vertical). Workplace gear is designed for comfortable positioning in the same spot, a quick fall arrest, and keeping the worker upright after a fall. In any case, to meet OSHA standards, it is up to you, the employer, to look up each item (ABCD) and certify the employee's gear works together as a "system." My guess is that some items will be fine, and some won't meet OSHA tensile strength or shock absorbing requirements. Best regards, stay safe. Dan Fink Buckville Energy IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 9:29 AM, James Rudolph wrote: > Aloha my Wrench Brothers! > We have a recent defector from a very large National Solar company here > that brought in this great Fall gear (see attachment). To be honest it blew > my mind how simple and light it was....Is anybody else using this rock > climbing equipment as fall protection gear? Is this approved by OSHA. > > You would figure if humans just free climbed El Capitain with gear like > this it would do just fine keeping me safe and compliant at 6 feet and > above. > > The rope grab is made by KONG. > > > Mahalo in advance! > > James Rudolph > Haleakala Solar > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat Jan 17 14:00:29 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 12:00:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fall Protection Equipment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54BAB14D.2090903@solarray.com> I prefer climbing gear as its much lighter weight and doesn't drag you around. I actually think in some cases that traditional fall protection gear can be more of a tripping hazard than the safety it provides. However, I was previously under the impression that if OSHA (or in the islands: HIOSH) came around, we had to ditch the climbing gear and get into the 3 times as heavy regular harnesses. I just looked at the OSHA website though, and it doesn't seem to specify certification, just that the equipment meet the fall criteria as Dan mentioned. https://www.osha.gov/Region7/fallprotection/fall_protection_info.html This doesn't mention test procedures or certification of equipment. Here's more from the actual OSHA 1926 book: *1926.502(e)(3)* Connectors shall be drop forged, pressed or formed steel, or made of equivalent materials. *1926.502(e)(4)* Connectors shall have a corrosion-resistant finish, and all surfaces and edges shall be smooth to prevent damage to interfacing parts of this system. *1926.502(e)(5)* Connecting assemblies shall have a minimum tensile strength of 5,000 pounds (22.2 kN) *1926.502(e)(6)* Dee-rings and snaphooks shall be proof-tested to a minimum tensile load of 3,600 pounds (16 kN) without cracking, breaking, or taking permanent deformation. "Equivalent materials" ? Seems that an aluminum caribiner that meets the other criteria would be equivalent. Here, Petzl also makes a full line of worker safety equipment: http://www.petzl.com/en/Professional/Verticality?l=US#.VLqw4nuLXfc This is really interesting, and I would like to have a more definitive answer from OSHA. It would be great if we could use lighter weight climbing gear; just compare a caribiner to the heavy steel monsters you get at Grainger's. As long as it is strong enough: Lighter weight = less fatigue= safer, IMHO. As with so many discussions on this list, it will ultimately depend on your local authorities. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/16/2015 11:20 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > James, > This looks like a pretty nice lanyard w/ shock-absorber, rope-grab and rope. > > What type/style harness did he bring along? > > Re: OSHA approved...great question. Prior to looking into it further I'd suspect it falls in a "grey area". > > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy Inc. > 780-906-7807 > > >> On Jan 16, 2015, at 9:29 AM, James Rudolph wrote: >> >> Aloha my Wrench Brothers! >> We have a recent defector from a very large National Solar company here that brought in this great Fall gear (see attachment). To be honest it blew my mind how simple and light it was....Is anybody else using this rock climbing equipment as fall protection gear? Is this approved by OSHA. >> >> You would figure if humans just free climbed El Capitain with gear like this it would do just fine keeping me safe and compliant at 6 feet and above. >> >> The rope grab is made by KONG. >> >> >> Mahalo in advance! >> >> James Rudolph >> Haleakala Solar >> >> <20150114_074111.jpeg> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Jan 17 14:20:33 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 11:20:33 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fall Protection Equipment In-Reply-To: <54BAB14D.2090903@solarray.com> References: <54BAB14D.2090903@solarray.com> Message-ID: Friends: Industrial fall protection with rear attachment offers no functionality in keeping a worker in place on a steep steel roof. We install planks in these situations but would also like to be able to cinch up a line connected to the workers waist or chest in the front to provide extra stability. Rear attached harnesses do not provide that. William > On Jan 17, 2015, at 11:00 AM, Ray Walters wrote: > > I prefer climbing gear as its much lighter weight and doesn't drag you around. I actually think in some cases that traditional fall protection gear can be more of a tripping hazard than the safety it provides. However, I was previously under the impression that if OSHA (or in the islands: HIOSH) came around, we had to ditch the climbing gear and get into the 3 times as heavy regular harnesses. > I just looked at the OSHA website though, and it doesn't seem to specify certification, just that the equipment meet the fall criteria as Dan mentioned. > https://www.osha.gov/Region7/fallprotection/fall_protection_info.html > This doesn't mention test procedures or certification of equipment. Here's more from the actual OSHA 1926 book: > > 1926.502(e)(3) > Connectors shall be drop forged, pressed or formed steel, or made of equivalent materials. > 1926.502(e)(4) > Connectors shall have a corrosion-resistant finish, and all surfaces and edges shall be smooth to prevent damage to interfacing parts of this system. > 1926.502(e)(5) > Connecting assemblies shall have a minimum tensile strength of 5,000 pounds (22.2 kN) > 1926.502(e)(6) > Dee-rings and snaphooks shall be proof-tested to a minimum tensile load of 3,600 pounds (16 kN) without cracking, breaking, or taking permanent deformation. > > "Equivalent materials" ? Seems that an aluminum caribiner that meets the other criteria would be equivalent. > > Here, Petzl also makes a full line of worker safety equipment: http://www.petzl.com/en/Professional/Verticality?l=US#.VLqw4nuLXfc > > This is really interesting, and I would like to have a more definitive answer from OSHA. It would be great if we could use lighter weight climbing gear; just compare a caribiner to the heavy steel monsters you get at Grainger's. As long as it is strong enough: > Lighter weight = less fatigue= safer, IMHO. > As with so many discussions on this list, it will ultimately depend on your local authorities. > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > On 1/16/2015 11:20 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: >> James, >> This looks like a pretty nice lanyard w/ shock-absorber, rope-grab and rope. >> >> What type/style harness did he bring along? >> >> Re: OSHA approved...great question. Prior to looking into it further I'd suspect it falls in a "grey area". >> >> Benn Kilburn >> SkyFire Energy Inc. >> 780-906-7807 >> >> >>> On Jan 16, 2015, at 9:29 AM, James Rudolph wrote: >>> >>> Aloha my Wrench Brothers! >>> We have a recent defector from a very large National Solar company here that brought in this great Fall gear (see attachment). To be honest it blew my mind how simple and light it was....Is anybody else using this rock climbing equipment as fall protection gear? Is this approved by OSHA. >>> >>> You would figure if humans just free climbed El Capitain with gear like this it would do just fine keeping me safe and compliant at 6 feet and above. >>> >>> The rope grab is made by KONG. >>> >>> >>> Mahalo in advance! >>> >>> James Rudolph >>> Haleakala Solar >>> >>> <20150114_074111.jpeg> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sat Jan 17 15:12:44 2015 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 13:12:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fall Protection Equipment In-Reply-To: <54BAB14D.2090903@solarray.com> References: <54BAB14D.2090903@solarray.com> Message-ID: Ray, looking at my tower climbing class reference materials I also can find no reference that to be OSHA approved, equipment *must* be ANSI, all I see is "suggested." But the tensile strength and full-body harness requirements are in OSHA. William, harnesses with both front and rear D-rings are available. Dan Fink Buckville Energy IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 12:00 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > I prefer climbing gear as its much lighter weight and doesn't drag you > around. I actually think in some cases that traditional fall protection > gear can be more of a tripping hazard than the safety it provides. > However, I was previously under the impression that if OSHA (or in the > islands: HIOSH) came around, we had to ditch the climbing gear and get into > the 3 times as heavy regular harnesses. > I just looked at the OSHA website though, and it doesn't seem to specify > certification, just that the equipment meet the fall criteria as Dan > mentioned. > https://www.osha.gov/Region7/fallprotection/fall_protection_info.html > This doesn't mention test procedures or certification of equipment. > Here's more from the actual OSHA 1926 book: > > *1926.502(e)(3)* > > Connectors shall be drop forged, pressed or formed steel, or made of > equivalent materials. > > *1926.502(e)(4)* > > Connectors shall have a corrosion-resistant finish, and all surfaces and > edges shall be smooth to prevent damage to interfacing parts of this system. > > *1926.502(e)(5)* > > Connecting assemblies shall have a minimum tensile strength of 5,000 > pounds (22.2 kN) > > *1926.502(e)(6)* > > Dee-rings and snaphooks shall be proof-tested to a minimum tensile load of > 3,600 pounds (16 kN) without cracking, breaking, or taking permanent > deformation. > > "Equivalent materials" ? Seems that an aluminum caribiner that meets > the other criteria would be equivalent. > > Here, Petzl also makes a full line of worker safety equipment: > http://www.petzl.com/en/Professional/Verticality?l=US#.VLqw4nuLXfc > > This is really interesting, and I would like to have a more definitive > answer from OSHA. It would be great if we could use lighter weight > climbing gear; just compare a caribiner to the heavy steel monsters you get > at Grainger's. As long as it is strong enough: > Lighter weight = less fatigue= safer, IMHO. > As with so many discussions on this list, it will ultimately depend on > your local authorities. > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 > > On 1/16/2015 11:20 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > > James, > This looks like a pretty nice lanyard w/ shock-absorber, rope-grab and rope. > > What type/style harness did he bring along? > > Re: OSHA approved...great question. Prior to looking into it further I'd suspect it falls in a "grey area". > > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 > > On Jan 16, 2015, at 9:29 AM, James Rudolph wrote: > > Aloha my Wrench Brothers! > We have a recent defector from a very large National Solar company here that brought in this great Fall gear (see attachment). To be honest it blew my mind how simple and light it was....Is anybody else using this rock climbing equipment as fall protection gear? Is this approved by OSHA. > > You would figure if humans just free climbed El Capitain with gear like this it would do just fine keeping me safe and compliant at 6 feet and above. > > The rope grab is made by KONG. > > > Mahalo in advance! > > James Rudolph > Haleakala Solar > > <20150114_074111.jpeg> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sat Jan 17 16:05:50 2015 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 16:05:50 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fall Protection Equipment In-Reply-To: References: <54BAB14D.2090903@solarray.com> Message-ID: <20150117210642.69F8710084@che.dreamhost.com> Standard OSHA personal safety harnesses are designed to keep someone upright and without pressure on the diaphragm in the event of loss of consciousness. Having done substantial rock and ice climbing with state of the art climbing gear, I can tell you that it is not designed for that at all. Sincerely, Glenn Burt Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. -----Original Message----- From: "William Miller" Sent: ‎1/‎17/‎2015 14:20 To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fall Protection Equipment Friends: Industrial fall protection with rear attachment offers no functionality in keeping a worker in place on a steep steel roof. We install planks in these situations but would also like to be able to cinch up a line connected to the workers waist or chest in the front to provide extra stability. Rear attached harnesses do not provide that. William On Jan 17, 2015, at 11:00 AM, Ray Walters wrote: I prefer climbing gear as its much lighter weight and doesn't drag you around. I actually think in some cases that traditional fall protection gear can be more of a tripping hazard than the safety it provides. However, I was previously under the impression that if OSHA (or in the islands: HIOSH) came around, we had to ditch the climbing gear and get into the 3 times as heavy regular harnesses. I just looked at the OSHA website though, and it doesn't seem to specify certification, just that the equipment meet the fall criteria as Dan mentioned. https://www.osha.gov/Region7/fallprotection/fall_protection_info.html This doesn't mention test procedures or certification of equipment. Here's more from the actual OSHA 1926 book: 1926.502(e)(3) Connectors shall be drop forged, pressed or formed steel, or made of equivalent materials. 1926.502(e)(4) Connectors shall have a corrosion-resistant finish, and all surfaces and edges shall be smooth to prevent damage to interfacing parts of this system. 1926.502(e)(5) Connecting assemblies shall have a minimum tensile strength of 5,000 pounds (22.2 kN) 1926.502(e)(6) Dee-rings and snaphooks shall be proof-tested to a minimum tensile load of 3,600 pounds (16 kN) without cracking, breaking, or taking permanent deformation. "Equivalent materials" ? Seems that an aluminum caribiner that meets the other criteria would be equivalent. Here, Petzl also makes a full line of worker safety equipment: http://www.petzl.com/en/Professional/Verticality?l=US#.VLqw4nuLXfc This is really interesting, and I would like to have a more definitive answer from OSHA. It would be great if we could use lighter weight climbing gear; just compare a caribiner to the heavy steel monsters you get at Grainger's. As long as it is strong enough: Lighter weight = less fatigue= safer, IMHO. As with so many discussions on this list, it will ultimately depend on your local authorities. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760On 1/16/2015 11:20 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: James, This looks like a pretty nice lanyard w/ shock-absorber, rope-grab and rope. What type/style harness did he bring along? Re: OSHA approved...great question. Prior to looking into it further I'd suspect it falls in a "grey area". Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 On Jan 16, 2015, at 9:29 AM, James Rudolph wrote: Aloha my Wrench Brothers! We have a recent defector from a very large National Solar company here that [The entire original message is not included.] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Sat Jan 17 14:24:12 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 12:24:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fall Protection Equipment In-Reply-To: <54BAB14D.2090903@solarray.com> References: <54BAB14D.2090903@solarray.com> Message-ID: <002e01d0328b$2d829580$8887c080$@com> We use Tower climbing harnesses with dual bags, Tape measure pocket, padded, super comfortable, tough, lots of attachment points and though not the lightest light I can spend all day in one and not feel traumatized at the end of the day. I am always glad to get out of the harness any time. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 - No FAX Line "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat Jan 17 19:44:31 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 17:44:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fall Protection Equipment In-Reply-To: <20150117210642.69F8710084@che.dreamhost.com> References: <54BAB14D.2090903@solarray.com> <20150117210642.69F8710084@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <54BB01EF.2010704@solarray.com> Hi Glenn; What's your opinion on Petzl's professional line of full body harnesses? I noticed too that their cool strapped helmets are ANSI approved. I never thought regular strapless construction hard hats made sense on a roof either. (always falling off and causing a hazard to workers below.....) R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/17/2015 2:05 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: > Standard OSHA personal safety harnesses are designed to keep someone > upright and without pressure on the diaphragm in the event of loss of > consciousness. > Having done substantial rock and ice climbing with state of the art > climbing gear, I can tell you that it is not designed for that at all. > > Sincerely, > Glenn Burt > Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > From: William Miller > Sent: ‎1/‎17/‎2015 14:20 > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fall Protection Equipment > > Friends: > > Industrial fall protection with rear attachment offers no > functionality in keeping a worker in place on a steep steel roof. We > install planks in these situations but would also like to be able to > cinch up a line connected to the workers waist or chest in the front > to provide extra stability. Rear attached harnesses do not provide that. > > William > > > > On Jan 17, 2015, at 11:00 AM, Ray Walters > wrote: > >> I prefer climbing gear as its much lighter weight and doesn't drag >> you around. I actually think in some cases that traditional fall >> protection gear can be more of a tripping hazard than the safety it >> provides. However, I was previously under the impression that if >> OSHA (or in the islands: HIOSH) came around, we had to ditch the >> climbing gear and get into the 3 times as heavy regular harnesses. >> I just looked at the OSHA website though, and it doesn't seem to >> specify certification, just that the equipment meet the fall criteria >> as Dan mentioned. >> https://www.osha.gov/Region7/fallprotection/fall_protection_info.html >> This doesn't mention test procedures or certification of equipment. >> Here's more from the actual OSHA 1926 book: >> >> *1926.502(e)(3)* >> >> Connectors shall be drop forged, pressed or formed steel, or made >> of equivalent materials. >> >> *1926.502(e)(4)* >> >> Connectors shall have a corrosion-resistant finish, and all >> surfaces and edges shall be smooth to prevent damage to >> interfacing parts of this system. >> >> *1926.502(e)(5)* >> >> Connecting assemblies shall have a minimum tensile strength of >> 5,000 pounds (22.2 kN) >> >> *1926.502(e)(6)* >> >> Dee-rings and snaphooks shall be proof-tested to a minimum >> tensile load of 3,600 pounds (16 kN) without cracking, breaking, >> or taking permanent deformation. >> >> "Equivalent materials" ? Seems that an aluminum caribiner that meets >> the other criteria would be equivalent. >> >> Here, Petzl also makes a full line of worker safety equipment: >> http://www.petzl.com/en/Professional/Verticality?l=US#.VLqw4nuLXfc >> >> This is really interesting, and I would like to have a more >> definitive answer from OSHA. It would be great if we could use >> lighter weight climbing gear; just compare a caribiner to the heavy >> steel monsters you get at Grainger's. As long as it is strong enough: >> Lighter weight = less fatigue= safer, IMHO. >> As with so many discussions on this list, it will ultimately depend >> on your local authorities. >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> On 1/16/2015 11:20 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: >>> James, >>> This looks like a pretty nice lanyard w/ shock-absorber, rope-grab and rope. >>> >>> What type/style harness did he bring along? >>> >>> Re: OSHA approved...great question. Prior to looking into it further I'd suspect it falls in a "grey area". >>> >>> Benn Kilburn >>> SkyFire Energy Inc. >>> 780-906-7807 >>> >>> >>>> On Jan 16, 2015, at 9:29 AM, James Rudolph wrote: >>>> >>>> Aloha my Wrench Brothers! >>>> We have a recent defector from a very large National Solar company here that > > [The entire original message is not included.] > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sun Jan 18 08:18:03 2015 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 06:18:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fall Protection Equipment In-Reply-To: <54BB01EF.2010704@solarray.com> References: <54BAB14D.2090903@solarray.com> <20150117210642.69F8710084@che.dreamhost.com> <54BB01EF.2010704@solarray.com> Message-ID: I like the Petzel strapped helmets too Ray, I have the Elios. My only complaint is that when I have to wear a fleece balaclava under it the chin strap is too short, and when I contacted Petzl they said there are no extenders available. Solution was to buy a BIG balaclava that fits over the helmet. Mine is not approved for some wind turbine work because the close-able vents can still let in liquid. Not an issue with the work I do. I have a friend who really likes the Petzl Navaho harness, I've never tried one. The Petzl rescue device is also very ligthweight and easy to use. I love my Petzl lightweight rope grab. I also like CAMP pulleys, lightweight and great prices. I like Petzl double-locking carabiners. Also a fan of Squids tool lanyards. Rock climbing gear is great because it's lightweight and easy to adjust, you just have to check the specs to make sure OSHA will approve. I would also imagine that if an incident happened, having everything ANSI spec would be a good CYA. Never been in that situation fortunately. Best; Dan Fink Buckville Energy IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 5:44 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > Hi Glenn; > > What's your opinion on Petzl's professional line of full body harnesses? > I noticed too that their cool strapped helmets are ANSI approved. I never > thought regular strapless construction hard hats made sense on a roof > either. (always falling off and causing a hazard to workers below.....) > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 > > On 1/17/2015 2:05 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: > > Standard OSHA personal safety harnesses are designed to keep someone > upright and without pressure on the diaphragm in the event of loss of > consciousness. > Having done substantial rock and ice climbing with state of the art > climbing gear, I can tell you that it is not designed for that at all. > > Sincerely, > Glenn Burt > Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. > ------------------------------ > From: William Miller > Sent: ‎1/‎17/‎2015 14:20 > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fall Protection Equipment > > Friends: > > Industrial fall protection with rear attachment offers no functionality > in keeping a worker in place on a steep steel roof. We install planks in > these situations but would also like to be able to cinch up a line > connected to the workers waist or chest in the front to provide extra > stability. Rear attached harnesses do not provide that. > > William > > > > On Jan 17, 2015, at 11:00 AM, Ray Walters wrote: > > I prefer climbing gear as its much lighter weight and doesn't drag you > around. I actually think in some cases that traditional fall protection > gear can be more of a tripping hazard than the safety it provides. > However, I was previously under the impression that if OSHA (or in the > islands: HIOSH) came around, we had to ditch the climbing gear and get into > the 3 times as heavy regular harnesses. > I just looked at the OSHA website though, and it doesn't seem to specify > certification, just that the equipment meet the fall criteria as Dan > mentioned. > https://www.osha.gov/Region7/fallprotection/fall_protection_info.html > This doesn't mention test procedures or certification of equipment. > Here's more from the actual OSHA 1926 book: > > *1926.502(e)(3)* > > Connectors shall be drop forged, pressed or formed steel, or made of > equivalent materials. > > *1926.502(e)(4)* > > Connectors shall have a corrosion-resistant finish, and all surfaces and > edges shall be smooth to prevent damage to interfacing parts of this system. > > *1926.502(e)(5)* > > Connecting assemblies shall have a minimum tensile strength of 5,000 > pounds (22.2 kN) > > *1926.502(e)(6)* > > Dee-rings and snaphooks shall be proof-tested to a minimum tensile load of > 3,600 pounds (16 kN) without cracking, breaking, or taking permanent > deformation. > > "Equivalent materials" ? Seems that an aluminum caribiner that meets > the other criteria would be equivalent. > > Here, Petzl also makes a full line of worker safety equipment: > http://www.petzl.com/en/Professional/Verticality?l=US#.VLqw4nuLXfc > > This is really interesting, and I would like to have a more definitive > answer from OSHA. It would be great if we could use lighter weight > climbing gear; just compare a caribiner to the heavy steel monsters you get > at Grainger's. As long as it is strong enough: > Lighter weight = less fatigue= safer, IMHO. > As with so many discussions on this list, it will ultimately depend on > your local authorities. > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 > > On 1/16/2015 11:20 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > > James, > This looks like a pretty nice lanyard w/ shock-absorber, rope-grab and rope. > > What type/style harness did he bring along? > > Re: OSHA approved...great question. Prior to looking into it further I'd suspect it falls in a "grey area". > > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 > > On Jan 16, 2015, at 9:29 AM, James Rudolph wrote: > > Aloha my Wrench Brothers! > We have a recent defector from a very large National Solar company here that > > > [The entire original message is not included.] > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gseelhorst at gmail.com Sun Jan 18 15:07:48 2015 From: gseelhorst at gmail.com (Gregory Seelhorst) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 14:07:48 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TL Inverters & Rapid Shutdown Message-ID: Wrenches - I wanted to bring up the topic of SMA TL inverters, SPS outlets, and Rapid Shutdown function. In light of some AHJs where the 2014 NEC is already in effect, I would appreciate how anyone has insight on how to address the topics below: *Re: SPS integrated outlet* - Citing 2014 NEC 690.61 and 690.10(B), is there any resistance to SMA's Technical paper on the topic ( http://files.sma.de/dl/18726/EPS-US-TB-en-11.pdf) and what is being done to appease them or make corrections any notices. Also would appreciate if you have suggestions on warning placards (to the effect of ‘this outlet only works when the switch is in the ‘ON’ position, inverter will not backfeed in the ‘OFF’ position), please contact me off-line if you like. *Re: Rapid Shutdown function* – Regarding the new Rapid Shutdown capability function (http://files.sma.de/dl/18726/EPSCompl-US-TB-en-14W.pdf) which complies with 690.12; Question, *can or must this be used in conjunction with the SPS?* Just wanted clarification of this functionality. My understanding is that if other Rapid Shutdown devices (DC contactors, Midnite Solar relays, etc.) are used, the SPS function can not be used. My question is that *if the Rapid Shutdown function is optional or a requirement when deploying the SPS function.* Regards, Greg Seelhorst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Jan 18 19:16:35 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 14:16:35 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] California wrenches PG&E In-Reply-To: <25B0F120-108C-488D-AC38-7EBD77F23009@mendocinosolar.com> References: <01bb01d02f7e$a7da22e0$f78e68a0$@com> <003201d02ff2$53968970$fac39c50$@com> <6D08120D-2DC6-4FF5-A419-44C8B9DDA253@asis.com> <00a101d03205$aa0405c0$fe0c1140$@millersolar.com> <14B57666-5108-4580-AE10-129A3A734F28@asis.com> <25B0F120-108C-488D-AC38-7EBD77F23009@mendocinosolar.com> Message-ID: I dont care for big government but it would be nice if they the feds would help to standardize the NEM, PG&E have been easy compaired with Hawaii. On Jan 18, 2015 1:51 PM, "Bruce Erickson" wrote: > We've just started having problems with PG&E and NEM applications for > somewhat larger residential systems (12 kW). The NEM process is > bass-ackwards in that you install and pay for the system, THEN apply for > the interconnection. Never been a problem before, but with a recent 12 KW > application, PG&E said the transformer was too small. We had to get the > customer to sign a letter that he would only operate 41 of the 44 modules > installed (not that we can disconnect 3 modules in a string system). That > would allow the interconnection to go forward until the utility could > upgrade the transformer at their expense, in a "few months", and only > because it was shared with another customer's service. If it had been a > dedicated transformer to the customer, he would have been responsible for > the cost of an upgrade. (Eventually the utility said "never mind, operate > the whole system".) > > We had another 12 kW system coming up, and to be sure we didn't get into a > deal-killing problem, I tried to find out in advance if the transformer was > adequate. We did step one of the application (the "Agreement and Customer > Authorization" form, which specifies CEC-AC rating and annual usage, but > not specific equipment). Waited several weeks with no word, then with the > job schedule approaching, tried several times to speak to someone. Finally > got someone who said " it will probably work, but it needs to be reviewed > by engineering", so we need to submit step 2 of the forms, which normally > they won't accept unless it's accompanied by the finalled building permit. > Catch 22. He said they would "try to work around that". > > I also asked how a transformer supplying a 200 amp service could not > accept 49 amps maximum backfeed, and was told "just because it's feeding a > 200 amp panel doesn't mean it's rated for 200 amps. The transformer is only > sized to the projected load which could be smaller." I asked how > backfeeding is considered load, and was told about possible problems with > "flicker factor." So, still waiting to see if I have to give my customer > the choice of paying for a $10,000 plus transformer upgrade or downsizing > the system. Downsizing to what size? Seems like we would still need > guidance on the transformer capacity. > > This has NEVER been an issue before. > > > *Bruce Erickson* > Mendocino Solar Service > PO Box 1252 > Mendocino, CA 95460 > 707-937-1701 > 707-937-1741 fax > bruce at mendocinosolar.com > > *Celebrating 20 Years in Solar!* 1994-2014 > > > > > > On Jan 16, 2015, at 9:38 PM, jay peltz wrote: > > I am just asking about any advice for the paperwork process above 30kW > with pg&e as I've never done one this large for a residence. > > Customer has a standard 400 amp 240v single phase connection. > > Thanks > > Jay > > Peltz power > > > > On Jan 16, 2015, at 5:25 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > > Well when you get that large the 3 phase makes a difference > On Jan 16, 2015 5:23 PM, "William Miller" wrote: > >> Friends: >> >> >> >> I would hesitate before offering three phase to a residential >> installation. Well pumps, booster bumps and other appliance, if configured >> for 230 volts do not operate well with 208 volts. They may work but you >> reduce your margin for voltage drop. >> >> >> >> William >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Lic 773985 >> millersolar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bruce at mendocinosolar.com Sun Jan 18 18:51:18 2015 From: bruce at mendocinosolar.com (Bruce Erickson) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 15:51:18 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] California wrenches PG&E In-Reply-To: <14B57666-5108-4580-AE10-129A3A734F28@asis.com> References: <01bb01d02f7e$a7da22e0$f78e68a0$@com> <003201d02ff2$53968970$fac39c50$@com> <6D08120D-2DC6-4FF5-A419-44C8B9DDA253@asis.com> <00a101d03205$aa0405c0$fe0c1140$@millersolar.com> <14B57666-5108-4580-AE10-129A3A734F28@asis.com> Message-ID: <25B0F120-108C-488D-AC38-7EBD77F23009@mendocinosolar.com> We've just started having problems with PG&E and NEM applications for somewhat larger residential systems (12 kW). The NEM process is bass-ackwards in that you install and pay for the system, THEN apply for the interconnection. Never been a problem before, but with a recent 12 KW application, PG&E said the transformer was too small. We had to get the customer to sign a letter that he would only operate 41 of the 44 modules installed (not that we can disconnect 3 modules in a string system). That would allow the interconnection to go forward until the utility could upgrade the transformer at their expense, in a "few months", and only because it was shared with another customer's service. If it had been a dedicated transformer to the customer, he would have been responsible for the cost of an upgrade. (Eventually the utility said "never mind, operate the whole system".) We had another 12 kW system coming up, and to be sure we didn't get into a deal-killing problem, I tried to find out in advance if the transformer was adequate. We did step one of the application (the "Agreement and Customer Authorization" form, which specifies CEC-AC rating and annual usage, but not specific equipment). Waited several weeks with no word, then with the job schedule approaching, tried several times to speak to someone. Finally got someone who said " it will probably work, but it needs to be reviewed by engineering", so we need to submit step 2 of the forms, which normally they won't accept unless it's accompanied by the finalled building permit. Catch 22. He said they would "try to work around that". I also asked how a transformer supplying a 200 amp service could not accept 49 amps maximum backfeed, and was told "just because it's feeding a 200 amp panel doesn't mean it's rated for 200 amps. The transformer is only sized to the projected load which could be smaller." I asked how backfeeding is considered load, and was told about possible problems with "flicker factor." So, still waiting to see if I have to give my customer the choice of paying for a $10,000 plus transformer upgrade or downsizing the system. Downsizing to what size? Seems like we would still need guidance on the transformer capacity. This has NEVER been an issue before. Bruce Erickson Mendocino Solar Service PO Box 1252 Mendocino, CA 95460 707-937-1701 707-937-1741 fax bruce at mendocinosolar.com Celebrating 20 Years in Solar! 1994-2014 On Jan 16, 2015, at 9:38 PM, jay peltz wrote: > I am just asking about any advice for the paperwork process above 30kW with pg&e as I've never done one this large for a residence. > > Customer has a standard 400 amp 240v single phase connection. > > Thanks > > Jay > > Peltz power > > > > On Jan 16, 2015, at 5:25 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > >> Well when you get that large the 3 phase makes a difference >> >> On Jan 16, 2015 5:23 PM, "William Miller" wrote: >> Friends: >> >> >> >> I would hesitate before offering three phase to a residential installation. Well pumps, booster bumps and other appliance, if configured for 230 volts do not operate well with 208 volts. They may work but you reduce your margin for voltage drop. >> >> >> >> William >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Lic 773985 >> millersolar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> >> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From westbrock at positiveenergysolar.com Mon Jan 19 09:47:16 2015 From: westbrock at positiveenergysolar.com (Mark Westbrock) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 07:47:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TL Inverters & Rapid Shutdown In-Reply-To: References: <116701cfe236$d9be1c20$8d3a5460$@com> <41FE255D65D554478C3B17F3EB5410EF911F901A@SVR-US-EXMBX-01.sma.de> <005101cfe3df$d657bc80$83073580$@com> Message-ID: Hi Greg, *Re: SPS integrated outlet* We have not had any inspectors take issue with the SPS, and we have installed dozens of them. The SPS is completely isolated from the electrical system of the rest of the house and the grid. As you know, our city inspectors here have a pretty high level of attention to detail, but once it was explained to them, they had no problem with it. *Re: Rapid Shutdown function* We had a meeting with SMA about this last week, and we are hoping to see the introduction (with pricing and availability) by next week. They explained that theirs may be the only rapid shutdown device on the market that uses DC instead of AC for the control circuit. Because of this, if the grid goes down, the device will continue to operate with the NO contactors closed and thus the SPS circuit may still be utilized. Of course, if the rapid shutdown function is engaged, then the SPS will be deenergized. Installer will need to run a communications cable up to the roof, so either 600V rated CAT5 cable in your DC conduit, or a separate conduit. I hope all is well with you down in Texas. Cheers, Mark ---- *Mark Westbrock* Branch Manager & Employee-Owner NM EE98J Journeyman Electrician NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified PV Technical Sales Positive Energy, Inc. 510 S. Main St. Las Cruces, NM 88001 office: 575-524-2030 cell: 575-640-2432 mw at positiveenergysolar.com www.positiveenergysolar.com On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 10:31 AM, Gregory Seelhorst wrote: > Wrenches - > > I wanted to bring up the topic of SMA TL inverters, SPS outlets, and Rapid > Shutdown function. In light of some AHJs where the 2014 NEC is already in > effect, I would appreciate how anyone has insight on how to address the > topics below: > > *Re: SPS integrated outlet* - Citing 2014 NEC 690.61 and 690.10(B), is > there any resistance to SMA's Technical paper on the topic (attached) and > what is being done to appease them or make corrections any notices. > > Also would appreciate if you have suggestions on warning placards (to the > effect of ‘this outlet only works when the switch is in the ‘ON’ position, > inverter will not backfeed in the ‘OFF’ position), please contact me > off-line if you like. > > *Re: Rapid Shutdown function* – It has come to my attention that there is > (or soon to be) a Rapid Shutdown capability function which will comply with > 690.12. The question being, *can or must this be used in conjunction > with the SPS?* Just wanted clarification of this functionality. > > My understanding is that if other Rapid Shutdown devices (DC contactors, > Midnite Solar relays, etc.) are used, the SPS function can not be used. My > question is that *if the Rapid Shutdown function is optional or a > requirement when deploying the SPS function.* > > Regards, > Greg Seelhorst > > > On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 11:41 AM, Randy > wrote: > >> Hi Wrenches, >> >> We are being forced to adopt 690.12 Rapid Shutdown requirement based on >> several explanations given to our industry: >> >> 1. otherwise we would be ignoring the life safety and put our fire >> fighters lives in peril >> >> 2. This product can be constructed from readily available, >> over-the-counter code compliant components. This (is) to be the intent >> of CMP4 when compiling the NFPA 70. >> >> >> >> We do not want to act like an industry that appears to be fighting >> against safety. And we know there are a few products that are code >> compliant, micro-inverters (don’t comply with 705.12 (D) (6) because there >> are no products), Solaredge, and Tigo (is it approved?) yet this is not how >> we choose products. >> >> >> >> And the SMA SPS inverter is not going to work in a 690.12 environment >> without complications as far as I can see. >> >> >> >> Appreciate comments that might support the right decision. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Randy >> >> >> >> Randy Sadewic >> >> Cell: 505 570-0137 >> >> Randy at PositiveEnergySolar.com >> >> >> >> [image: >> http://positiveenergysolar.com/admin/content/uploads/PES-logo-3.jpg] >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Steve Jefferson >> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 07, 2014 8:33 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] TL Inverters >> >> >> >> The first gen of TL’s did have a somewhat tight window for the DC window. >> >> >> >> However, the new SBxxxxTL-US-22 (3kW – 7700kW, with secure power supply) >> Start Voltage is 125, MPPT is 175-480 (max of 600Vdc) >> >> >> >> Also, for larger needs, the STP (12kW – 24kW) start voltage is 150, MPPT >> is 300-800V (max of 1000Vdc). >> >> >> >> SMA America, LLC >> >> Steve Jefferson >> >> Service Line Supervisor >> >> 3925 Atherton Ave >> >> Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714 >> >> U.S.A. >> >> Tel: +1 916 625 3185 (direct) >> >> Fax: +1 916 625 0871 >> >> Mobile: +1 916 622 4253 >> >> Email: Steve.jefferson at SMA-America.com >> >> www.SMA-America.com >> >> >> >> [image: cid:image001.png at 01CF1CFA.FE18BEB0] >> >> >> >> >> This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC >> confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the >> intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or >> any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not >> the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and >> permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any >> attachments thereto. Thank you. >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >> ] *On Behalf Of *Mark Byington >> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 07, 2014 6:59 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] TL Inverters >> >> >> >> >> >> Just a word of caution to those not having experience with SMA TL >> inverters - the larger units (7-11 kW) have an extremely narrow input DC >> voltage window. Depending on your module voltage and string design, all >> you need is a module or two to be shaded to fall out of the MPPT input >> voltage range. The smaller units (3-5 kW) with the Secure Power Supply >> don't have this problem. We no longer use these larger SMA TL inverters >> unless we can do maximum string length (e.g. strings of 8 for SunPower >> 96-cell) and there is zero shade at the site. >> >> >> >> I believe SMA is in the process of adding larger units to the line that >> has the Secure Power Supply. They added the 6 kW unit earlier this year, >> and just announced the 7 kW unit with Secure Power Supply. >> >> >> >> Mark Byington >> >> Cobalt Power Systems, Inc. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6339 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.png Type: image/png Size: 30736 bytes Desc: not available URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Mon Jan 19 11:13:17 2015 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 11:13:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fall Protection Equipment In-Reply-To: <54BB01EF.2010704@solarray.com> References: <54BAB14D.2090903@solarray.com> <20150117210642.69F8710084@che.dreamhost.com> <54BB01EF.2010704@solarray.com> Message-ID: <000501d03402$d78d6050$86a820f0$@burt@glbcc.com> Hi Ray, Petzl is a good company and has been around for a long time. For climbing gear, I don’t have much of their equipment, as I prefer Chouinard (now Black Diamond). I am afraid I don’t have any experience with their personal fall arrest equipment, preferring clearly approved gear from Exofit and Elk River. It looks like the Petzl Vertex helmet has all the necessary OSHA approved ratings for impact and electrical with their ANSI Z89.1-2009 type 1 class E listing, and it sure is a good idea to have some method of keeping the brain bucket from falling off at inopportune moments… as long as you bear in mind that the Type 1 hard hat is protection from impacts from above, and not from the side (won’t protect the wearer from getting smacked in the side of the head with a piece of rail). -Glenn From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2015 7:45 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fall Protection Equipment Hi Glenn; What's your opinion on Petzl's professional line of full body harnesses? I noticed too that their cool strapped helmets are ANSI approved. I never thought regular strapless construction hard hats made sense on a roof either. (always falling off and causing a hazard to workers below.....) R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/17/2015 2:05 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: Standard OSHA personal safety harnesses are designed to keep someone upright and without pressure on the diaphragm in the event of loss of consciousness. Having done substantial rock and ice climbing with state of the art climbing gear, I can tell you that it is not designed for that at all. Sincerely, Glenn Burt Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. _____ From: William Miller Sent: ‎1/‎17/‎2015 14:20 To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fall Protection Equipment Friends: Industrial fall protection with rear attachment offers no functionality in keeping a worker in place on a steep steel roof. We install planks in these situations but would also like to be able to cinch up a line connected to the workers waist or chest in the front to provide extra stability. Rear attached harnesses do not provide that. William On Jan 17, 2015, at 11:00 AM, Ray Walters wrote: I prefer climbing gear as its much lighter weight and doesn't drag you around. I actually think in some cases that traditional fall protection gear can be more of a tripping hazard than the safety it provides. However, I was previously under the impression that if OSHA (or in the islands: HIOSH) came around, we had to ditch the climbing gear and get into the 3 times as heavy regular harnesses. I just looked at the OSHA website though, and it doesn't seem to specify certification, just that the equipment meet the fall criteria as Dan mentioned. https://www.osha.gov/Region7/fallprotection/fall_protection_info.html This doesn't mention test procedures or certification of equipment. Here's more from the actual OSHA 1926 book: 1926.502(e)(3) Connectors shall be drop forged, pressed or formed steel, or made of equivalent materials. 1926.502(e)(4) Connectors shall have a corrosion-resistant finish, and all surfaces and edges shall be smooth to prevent damage to interfacing parts of this system. 1926.502(e)(5) Connecting assemblies shall have a minimum tensile strength of 5,000 pounds (22.2 kN) 1926.502(e)(6) Dee-rings and snaphooks shall be proof-tested to a minimum tensile load of 3,600 pounds (16 kN) without cracking, breaking, or taking permanent deformation. "Equivalent materials" ? Seems that an aluminum caribiner that meets the other criteria would be equivalent. Here, Petzl also makes a full line of worker safety equipment: http://www.petzl.com/en/Professional/Verticality?l=US#.VLqw4nuLXfc This is really interesting, and I would like to have a more definitive answer from OSHA. It would be great if we could use lighter weight climbing gear; just compare a caribiner to the heavy steel monsters you get at Grainger's. As long as it is strong enough: Lighter weight = less fatigue= safer, IMHO. As with so many discussions on this list, it will ultimately depend on your local authorities. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/16/2015 11:20 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: James, This looks like a pretty nice lanyard w/ shock-absorber, rope-grab and rope. What type/style harness did he bring along? Re: OSHA approved...great question. Prior to looking into it further I'd suspect it falls in a "grey area". Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 On Jan 16, 2015, at 9:29 AM, James Rudolph wrote: Aloha my Wrench Brothers! We have a recent defector from a very large National Solar company here that [The entire original message is not included.] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From deant at dcn.davis.ca.us Sun Jan 18 23:43:29 2015 From: deant at dcn.davis.ca.us (Dean T. Newberry) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 20:43:29 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] California wrenches PG&E In-Reply-To: <25B0F120-108C-488D-AC38-7EBD77F23009@mendocinosolar.com> References: <01bb01d02f7e$a7da22e0$f78e68a0$@com> <003201d02ff2$53968970$fac39c50$@com> <6D08120D-2DC6-4FF5-A419-44C8B9DDA253@asis.com> <00a101d03205$aa0405c0$fe0c1140$@millersolar.com> <14B57666-5108-4580-AE10-129A3A734F28@asis.com> <25B0F120-108C-488D-AC38-7EBD77F23009@mendocinosolar.com> Message-ID: <000001d033a2$78a45ae0$69ed10a0$@dcn.davis.ca.us> More than you will ever want to know about "flicker factor". https://www.pacificpower.net/content/dam/pacific_power/doc/Contractors_Suppl iers/Power_Quality_Standards/1C_5_1.pdf Section 4.63 pertains to the quibble by the utility. enjoy, Dean Dean T. Newberry 216 F St. #132 Davis, CA 95616 (530) 753-1900 deant at talbottsolar.com http://www.talbottsolar.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bruce Erickson Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2015 3:51 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] California wrenches PG&E We've just started having problems with PG&E and NEM applications for somewhat larger residential systems (12 kW). The NEM process is bass-ackwards in that you install and pay for the system, THEN apply for the interconnection. Never been a problem before, but with a recent 12 KW application, PG&E said the transformer was too small. We had to get the customer to sign a letter that he would only operate 41 of the 44 modules installed (not that we can disconnect 3 modules in a string system). That would allow the interconnection to go forward until the utility could upgrade the transformer at their expense, in a "few months", and only because it was shared with another customer's service. If it had been a dedicated transformer to the customer, he would have been responsible for the cost of an upgrade. (Eventually the utility said "never mind, operate the whole system".) We had another 12 kW system coming up, and to be sure we didn't get into a deal-killing problem, I tried to find out in advance if the transformer was adequate. We did step one of the application (the "Agreement and Customer Authorization" form, which specifies CEC-AC rating and annual usage, but not specific equipment). Waited several weeks with no word, then with the job schedule approaching, tried several times to speak to someone. Finally got someone who said " it will probably work, but it needs to be reviewed by engineering", so we need to submit step 2 of the forms, which normally they won't accept unless it's accompanied by the finalled building permit. Catch 22. He said they would "try to work around that". I also asked how a transformer supplying a 200 amp service could not accept 49 amps maximum backfeed, and was told "just because it's feeding a 200 amp panel doesn't mean it's rated for 200 amps. The transformer is only sized to the projected load which could be smaller." I asked how backfeeding is considered load, and was told about possible problems with "flicker factor." So, still waiting to see if I have to give my customer the choice of paying for a $10,000 plus transformer upgrade or downsizing the system. Downsizing to what size? Seems like we would still need guidance on the transformer capacity. This has NEVER been an issue before. Bruce Erickson Mendocino Solar Service PO Box 1252 Mendocino, CA 95460 707-937-1701 707-937-1741 fax bruce at mendocinosolar.com Celebrating 20 Years in Solar! 1994-2014 On Jan 16, 2015, at 9:38 PM, jay peltz wrote: I am just asking about any advice for the paperwork process above 30kW with pg&e as I've never done one this large for a residence. Customer has a standard 400 amp 240v single phase connection. Thanks Jay Peltz power On Jan 16, 2015, at 5:25 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Well when you get that large the 3 phase makes a difference On Jan 16, 2015 5:23 PM, "William Miller" wrote: Friends: I would hesitate before offering three phase to a residential installation. Well pumps, booster bumps and other appliance, if configured for 230 volts do not operate well with 208 volts. They may work but you reduce your margin for voltage drop. William Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Mon Jan 19 11:13:17 2015 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 11:13:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fall Protection Equipment In-Reply-To: References: <54BAB14D.2090903@solarray.com> Message-ID: <000001d03402$d6a682c0$83f38840$@burt@glbcc.com> D rings in places other than in the middle of the back are characterized as positioning attachment points, and in almost all cases are not approved for a connection point to fall protection systems. Additional ropes and clips are sold for use with the positioning attachment points on many more flexible harnesses, however beware that they are not suitable for the only attachment point to your lifeline and shock absorber. There are plenty of harnesses out there with these additional points of attachment, but the price seems to skyrocket with each addition. -Glenn From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2015 2:21 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fall Protection Equipment Friends: Industrial fall protection with rear attachment offers no functionality in keeping a worker in place on a steep steel roof. We install planks in these situations but would also like to be able to cinch up a line connected to the workers waist or chest in the front to provide extra stability. Rear attached harnesses do not provide that. William On Jan 17, 2015, at 11:00 AM, Ray Walters wrote: I prefer climbing gear as its much lighter weight and doesn't drag you around. I actually think in some cases that traditional fall protection gear can be more of a tripping hazard than the safety it provides. However, I was previously under the impression that if OSHA (or in the islands: HIOSH) came around, we had to ditch the climbing gear and get into the 3 times as heavy regular harnesses. I just looked at the OSHA website though, and it doesn't seem to specify certification, just that the equipment meet the fall criteria as Dan mentioned. https://www.osha.gov/Region7/fallprotection/fall_protection_info.html This doesn't mention test procedures or certification of equipment. Here's more from the actual OSHA 1926 book: 1926.502(e)(3) Connectors shall be drop forged, pressed or formed steel, or made of equivalent materials. 1926.502(e)(4) Connectors shall have a corrosion-resistant finish, and all surfaces and edges shall be smooth to prevent damage to interfacing parts of this system. 1926.502(e)(5) Connecting assemblies shall have a minimum tensile strength of 5,000 pounds (22.2 kN) 1926.502(e)(6) Dee-rings and snaphooks shall be proof-tested to a minimum tensile load of 3,600 pounds (16 kN) without cracking, breaking, or taking permanent deformation. "Equivalent materials" ? Seems that an aluminum caribiner that meets the other criteria would be equivalent. Here, Petzl also makes a full line of worker safety equipment: http://www.petzl.com/en/Professional/Verticality?l=US#.VLqw4nuLXfc This is really interesting, and I would like to have a more definitive answer from OSHA. It would be great if we could use lighter weight climbing gear; just compare a caribiner to the heavy steel monsters you get at Grainger's. As long as it is strong enough: Lighter weight = less fatigue= safer, IMHO. As with so many discussions on this list, it will ultimately depend on your local authorities. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/16/2015 11:20 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: James, This looks like a pretty nice lanyard w/ shock-absorber, rope-grab and rope. What type/style harness did he bring along? Re: OSHA approved...great question. Prior to looking into it further I'd suspect it falls in a "grey area". Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 On Jan 16, 2015, at 9:29 AM, James Rudolph wrote: Aloha my Wrench Brothers! We have a recent defector from a very large National Solar company here that brought in this great Fall gear (see attachment). To be honest it blew my mind how simple and light it was....Is anybody else using this rock climbing equipment as fall protection gear? Is this approved by OSHA. You would figure if humans just free climbed El Capitain with gear like this it would do just fine keeping me safe and compliant at 6 feet and above. The rope grab is made by KONG. Mahalo in advance! James Rudolph Haleakala Solar <20150114_074111.jpeg> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From garrison at solarserviceinc.com Mon Jan 19 11:04:08 2015 From: garrison at solarserviceinc.com (Garrison Riegel) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 10:04:08 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fall Protection Equipment In-Reply-To: References: <54BAB14D.2090903@solarray.com> Message-ID: <00d801d03401$8eec5910$acc50b30$@solarserviceinc.com> William, As Dan mentioned there are harnesses with both front and rear D-rings. For the application you describe I would recommend using a tower harness that includes a saddle with waist strap D-rings. I personally prefer the Guardian Tower Edge harness. It is perfectly acceptable to use the front D-ring only as long as you are using it in “restraint”, where your positioning device is located so there is not enough slack in the rope to let you fall over the edge. If there is a possibility you might actually fall off the roof then the rear ring must be used. Cheers, Garrison Garrison Riegel PV Operations Manager | Solar Service Inc [p] 847-677-0950 | garrison at solarserviceinc.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2015 1:21 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fall Protection Equipment Friends: Industrial fall protection with rear attachment offers no functionality in keeping a worker in place on a steep steel roof. We install planks in these situations but would also like to be able to cinch up a line connected to the workers waist or chest in the front to provide extra stability. Rear attached harnesses do not provide that. William On Jan 17, 2015, at 11:00 AM, Ray Walters > wrote: I prefer climbing gear as its much lighter weight and doesn't drag you around. I actually think in some cases that traditional fall protection gear can be more of a tripping hazard than the safety it provides. However, I was previously under the impression that if OSHA (or in the islands: HIOSH) came around, we had to ditch the climbing gear and get into the 3 times as heavy regular harnesses. I just looked at the OSHA website though, and it doesn't seem to specify certification, just that the equipment meet the fall criteria as Dan mentioned. https://www.osha.gov/Region7/fallprotection/fall_protection_info.html This doesn't mention test procedures or certification of equipment. Here's more from the actual OSHA 1926 book: 1926.502(e)(3) Connectors shall be drop forged, pressed or formed steel, or made of equivalent materials. 1926.502(e)(4) Connectors shall have a corrosion-resistant finish, and all surfaces and edges shall be smooth to prevent damage to interfacing parts of this system. 1926.502(e)(5) Connecting assemblies shall have a minimum tensile strength of 5,000 pounds (22.2 kN) 1926.502(e)(6) Dee-rings and snaphooks shall be proof-tested to a minimum tensile load of 3,600 pounds (16 kN) without cracking, breaking, or taking permanent deformation. "Equivalent materials" ? Seems that an aluminum caribiner that meets the other criteria would be equivalent. Here, Petzl also makes a full line of worker safety equipment: http://www.petzl.com/en/Professional/Verticality?l=US#.VLqw4nuLXfc This is really interesting, and I would like to have a more definitive answer from OSHA. It would be great if we could use lighter weight climbing gear; just compare a caribiner to the heavy steel monsters you get at Grainger's. As long as it is strong enough: Lighter weight = less fatigue= safer, IMHO. As with so many discussions on this list, it will ultimately depend on your local authorities. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/16/2015 11:20 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: James, This looks like a pretty nice lanyard w/ shock-absorber, rope-grab and rope. What type/style harness did he bring along? Re: OSHA approved...great question. Prior to looking into it further I'd suspect it falls in a "grey area". Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 On Jan 16, 2015, at 9:29 AM, James Rudolph wrote: Aloha my Wrench Brothers! We have a recent defector from a very large National Solar company here that brought in this great Fall gear (see attachment). To be honest it blew my mind how simple and light it was....Is anybody else using this rock climbing equipment as fall protection gear? Is this approved by OSHA. You would figure if humans just free climbed El Capitain with gear like this it would do just fine keeping me safe and compliant at 6 feet and above. The rope grab is made by KONG. Mahalo in advance! James Rudolph Haleakala Solar <20150114_074111.jpeg> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daniel at greenwired.com Mon Jan 19 14:50:33 2015 From: daniel at greenwired.com (Dan Tittmann) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 12:50:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SW4024 In-Reply-To: <11a63c10d677a71150cd156b2037c687.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> References: <54AD9D99.7070309@solarray.com> <11a63c10d677a71150cd156b2037c687.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> Message-ID: unfortunately these great inverters after years and years of service are dropping like flies. Often the chargers go first then.... We have be replacing them with Magnum MS 4024 as the price of a new inverter is only slightly higher than the cost shipping and repairing the old and it can be done in a day. If you are set on getting the replacement SW e-bay has been my best bet. Cheers- Daniel Daniel Tittmann CTO Greenwired www.greenwired.com daniel at greenwired.com 707-923-2001 (office) 707-206-5088 (Cell) On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 7:32 AM, wrote: > Hi all, > I know this is a real shot in the dark, but is there a possibility > someone out there has an SW4024 for sale. I have an off grid client > whose has a major issue. Because they are off grid, they do not want to > send the inverter off to be fixed and have to run their generator for a > couple of weeks. > If anyone has one, or possibly a lead, please contact me off list. > > Thanks, > Daryl DeJoy > NABCEP Certified PV installer > Penobscot Solar Design > www.penobscotsolar.com > (207) 326-0779 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Tue Jan 20 06:57:53 2015 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2015 06:57:53 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fall Protection Equipment In-Reply-To: <54BB01EF.2010704@solarray.com> References: <54BAB14D.2090903@solarray.com> <20150117210642.69F8710084@che.dreamhost.com> <54BB01EF.2010704@solarray.com> Message-ID: <08267EE2-3C9D-436B-A599-9FA7551278C8@swnl.net> I would offer the Sala "Exofit" NEX style harness part # 1113040 we use this style with the front & spring loaded rear (stays easily accessible) d rings weight is ~4.2 Lbs. Light weight easily adjusted and I believe they now offer this style with out the shoulder pad protection. We also use a retractable lanyard 9' and they have a 14' as well, along with their horizontal life line prt # 7600506. Warner; the ladder folks will be out with some new safety gear soon too. What I find disappointing is that the manufacture's rep offer little education on how to purchase but much less the correct way to install. OSHA offers very little aside from suggestions. Writing test questions for NABCEP I try to include fall arresting questions & find it VERY difficult to have reference material available to all, required to back up my questions. Something as simple as where to connect your attachment points are "suggested" by the manufacture, & not often reviewed by the harness user, not by OSHA. We require our installers to read the provided manu's instruction and sign it + we review & check each tech prior to climbing. tump On Jan 17, 2015, at 7:44 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > Hi Glenn; > > What's your opinion on Petzl's professional line of full body harnesses? I noticed too that their cool strapped helmets are ANSI approved. I never thought regular strapless construction hard hats made sense on a roof either. (always falling off and causing a hazard to workers below.....) > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > On 1/17/2015 2:05 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: >> Standard OSHA personal safety harnesses are designed to keep someone upright and without pressure on the diaphragm in the event of loss of consciousness. >> Having done substantial rock and ice climbing with state of the art climbing gear, I can tell you that it is not designed for that at all. >> >> Sincerely, >> Glenn Burt >> Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. >> From: William Miller >> Sent: ‎1/‎17/‎2015 14:20 >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fall Protection Equipment >> >> Friends: >> >> Industrial fall protection with rear attachment offers no functionality in keeping a worker in place on a steep steel roof. We install planks in these situations but would also like to be able to cinch up a line connected to the workers waist or chest in the front to provide extra stability. Rear attached harnesses do not provide that. >> >> William >> >> >> >> On Jan 17, 2015, at 11:00 AM, Ray Walters wrote: >> >>> I prefer climbing gear as its much lighter weight and doesn't drag you around. I actually think in some cases that traditional fall protection gear can be more of a tripping hazard than the safety it provides. However, I was previously under the impression that if OSHA (or in the islands: HIOSH) came around, we had to ditch the climbing gear and get into the 3 times as heavy regular harnesses. >>> I just looked at the OSHA website though, and it doesn't seem to specify certification, just that the equipment meet the fall criteria as Dan mentioned. >>> https://www.osha.gov/Region7/fallprotection/fall_protection_info.html >>> This doesn't mention test procedures or certification of equipment. Here's more from the actual OSHA 1926 book: >>> >>> 1926.502(e)(3) >>> Connectors shall be drop forged, pressed or formed steel, or made of equivalent materials. >>> 1926.502(e)(4) >>> Connectors shall have a corrosion-resistant finish, and all surfaces and edges shall be smooth to prevent damage to interfacing parts of this system. >>> 1926.502(e)(5) >>> Connecting assemblies shall have a minimum tensile strength of 5,000 pounds (22.2 kN) >>> 1926.502(e)(6) >>> Dee-rings and snaphooks shall be proof-tested to a minimum tensile load of 3,600 pounds (16 kN) without cracking, breaking, or taking permanent deformation. >>> >>> "Equivalent materials" ? Seems that an aluminum caribiner that meets the other criteria would be equivalent. >>> >>> Here, Petzl also makes a full line of worker safety equipment: http://www.petzl.com/en/Professional/Verticality?l=US#.VLqw4nuLXfc >>> >>> This is really interesting, and I would like to have a more definitive answer from OSHA. It would be great if we could use lighter weight climbing gear; just compare a caribiner to the heavy steel monsters you get at Grainger's. As long as it is strong enough: >>> Lighter weight = less fatigue= safer, IMHO. >>> As with so many discussions on this list, it will ultimately depend on your local authorities. >>> R.Ray Walters >>> CTO, Solarray, Inc >>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >>> Licensed Master Electrician >>> Solar Design Engineer >>> 303 505-8760 >>> On 1/16/2015 11:20 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: >>>> James, >>>> This looks like a pretty nice lanyard w/ shock-absorber, rope-grab and rope. >>>> >>>> What type/style harness did he bring along? >>>> >>>> Re: OSHA approved...great question. Prior to looking into it further I'd suspect it falls in a "grey area". >>>> >>>> Benn Kilburn >>>> SkyFire Energy Inc. >>>> 780-906-7807 >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Jan 16, 2015, at 9:29 AM, James Rudolph wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Aloha my Wrench Brothers! >>>>> We have a recent defector from a very large National Solar company here that >> >> [The entire original message is not included.] >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com Tue Jan 20 15:21:26 2015 From: solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com (Solar Energy Solutions) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2015 20:21:26 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar DHW In-Reply-To: <117BE61B-5860-417D-AE44-BF693C92515A@gmail.com> References: <117BE61B-5860-417D-AE44-BF693C92515A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <464960040.3397083.1421785286681.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10615.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> We also like the SunEarth panels.  Please make sure you put the Rheem tanks under an 80psi pressure test for 3 days and that it holds like a ROCK.  We prefer these tanks but have also found their heat exchangers to leak from time to time.  Smiles, Andrew KoyaanisqatsiPresidentSolar Energy Solutions, Inc.Since 1987,Moving Portland and Beyond to an Environmentally Sustainable Future.503-238-4502 www.SolarEnergyOregon.com "Better one's House too little one daythan too big all the Year after." On Friday, January 16, 2015 9:01 PM, Luke Christy wrote: Bill, I'm based in Southern Colorado, so unfortunately don't have personal experience with NE CA distributors, but having said that,  I would recommend giving SunEarth a call. They make top-notch harp-style collectors in So Cal, and they private label a host of other Solar Thermal components, including Steca controllers. The folks I have talked to from their sales team are friendly and helpful and I'm sure they can tell you who in your area distributes their stuff. They might even sell to you directly. I prefer Resol controllers for our thermal projects and have found that Alpha Thermal Systems in Massachusetts is the place to get those controls. They also distribute PAW pumpstations and will ship for a reasonable price. Best, -Luke > > Wrenches, > >        Occasionally I get wrangled into doing hot water.  I used to source stuff from Solar > Depot, but they are gone.  For those wrenches in the NE California area, I would appreciate leads on suppliers for thermal panels, tanks (with heat exchangers), circ pumps, etc.  Is UMA a candidate? > > Thanks for any tips. leads. > > Bill > Feather River Solar Electric > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA  95983 > 530.284.7849 / 6544 fax > www.frenergy.net Luke Christy NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03      CoSEIA Certified PV Installer Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO. 81144 SGSRenewables at Gmail.com 719.588.3044 www.sgsrenewables.com   _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Jan 20 14:13:36 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2015 09:13:36 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LG Neon 300 watt modules Message-ID: Hello to all. Has anyone used or knows anything about the LG modules I am looking at the Neon 300 for a customer, its a 60 cell 300 watt module but I/we don't use the LG product so I am looking to the list Jerry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirk at vtsolar.com Tue Jan 20 17:14:11 2015 From: kirk at vtsolar.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2015 17:14:11 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Replacing Fall Protection Equipment Message-ID: <014201d034fe$6b6568d0$42303a70$@vtsolar.com> I just had a company safety person tell me that harnesses per OSHA are to be replaced every five years regardless of condition. Is this correct? What about lanyards, ropes, etc? Kirk Herander VT Solar, LLC Proven PV provider since 1991 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirk at vtsolar.com Tue Jan 20 18:45:03 2015 From: kirk at vtsolar.com (Kirk) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2015 18:45:03 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SW4024 In-Reply-To: References: <54AD9D99.7070309@solarray.com> <11a63c10d677a71150cd156b2037c687.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> Message-ID: <9670FB1B-D8E3-40CA-AD4A-95ECF6EA4B5F@vtsolar.com> Daryl- I do have a functional 4024 available. Please contact me off-list. Kirk Herander VSE > On Jan 19, 2015, at 2:50 PM, Dan Tittmann wrote: > > unfortunately these great inverters after years and years of service are dropping like flies. Often the chargers go first then.... We have be replacing them with Magnum MS 4024 as the price of a new inverter is only slightly higher than the cost shipping and repairing the old and it can be done in a day. If you are set on getting the replacement SW e-bay has been my best bet. > Cheers- > Daniel > > Daniel Tittmann > CTO > Greenwired > www.greenwired.com > daniel at greenwired.com > 707-923-2001 (office) > 707-206-5088 (Cell) > >> On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 7:32 AM, wrote: >> Hi all, >> I know this is a real shot in the dark, but is there a possibility >> someone out there has an SW4024 for sale. I have an off grid client >> whose has a major issue. Because they are off grid, they do not want to >> send the inverter off to be fixed and have to run their generator for a >> couple of weeks. >> If anyone has one, or possibly a lead, please contact me off list. >> >> Thanks, >> Daryl DeJoy >> NABCEP Certified PV installer >> Penobscot Solar Design >> www.penobscotsolar.com >> (207) 326-0779 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From don at energysolarnow.com Wed Jan 21 14:24:15 2015 From: don at energysolarnow.com (don at energysolarnow.com) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2015 12:24:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] circuit breaker for SW5548 Message-ID: <20150121122415.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.033790002b.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Wed Jan 21 17:52:00 2015 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2015 17:52:00 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LG Neon 300 watt modules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7033F242-C912-4C4D-97CE-DFC8FFC547B4@swnl.net> I have used the LG product line for 3/4 years now. Quality product , SLIPPERY and can be easily scratched but they are a bit lighter then most, alignment markings on the module. I get them from the QUALITY team at FOCUSED ENERGY, these folks have been my supplier since Windy Dankoff.... 505-216-5004 They are talking about an east coast warehouse presently most of the modules are in RENO On Jan 20, 2015, at 2:13 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Hello to all. > Has anyone used or knows anything about the LG modules I am looking at the Neon 300 for a customer, its a 60 cell 300 watt module but I/we don't use the LG product so I am looking to the list > Jerry > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Wed Jan 21 17:46:42 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2015 15:46:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LG Neon 300 watt modules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <009401d035cc$21c69f90$6553deb0$@com> I have not used it but I have selected the LG305 watt for snow load, efficiency, and price for my new home in Idaho. A 39” x 65” & 60 cell 305 watt module is sweet. It gives me chills to think about it. Especially going back to the day of Arco Bronze, gold & muds……………. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 - No FAX Line "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Shafer Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2015 12:14 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] LG Neon 300 watt modules Hello to all. Has anyone used or knows anything about the LG modules I am looking at the Neon 300 for a customer, its a 60 cell 300 watt module but I/we don't use the LG product so I am looking to the list Jerry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From don at energysolarnow.com Wed Jan 21 19:34:50 2015 From: don at energysolarnow.com (don at energysolarnow.com) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2015 17:34:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LG Neon 300 watt modules Message-ID: <20150121173450.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.2f25bdf664.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Jan 21 21:38:01 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2015 19:38:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] circuit breaker for SW5548 In-Reply-To: <20150121122415.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.033790002b.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> References: <20150121122415.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.033790002b.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <54C06289.4000108@solarray.com> Try Mouser electronics. Otherwise, I'd consider bypassing it, and have a regular breaker (30 or 40 amp) on theout put. The tripping was probably because the breaker was malfunctioning. Usually the SWs will trip their on board computer to shutdown for over current, and the breaker should never be used. The 5548s were kind of weird though. I never liked those. I've had SW4048s out surge the 5548s hands down. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/21/2015 12:24 PM, don at energysolarnow.com wrote: > Hi all- > I'm having some difficulty finding a replacement for the little > push-button circuit breaker on an old Trace SW5548 inverter. This is > located on the lower left corner of the box, below the wiring access > panel. The customer has had repeated tripping of this breaker from > overcurrent, so it has been doing it's job. But now the button won't > reset. > It's a 35 amp breaker. I have only been able to find smaller ones in > the online catalogs. > Anyone know of a better parts supplier? > Thanks > Don Barch > Energy Solar > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Wed Jan 21 22:02:18 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2015 20:02:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] circuit breaker for SW5548 In-Reply-To: <54C06289.4000108@solarray.com> References: <20150121122415.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.033790002b.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> <54C06289.4000108@solarray.com> Message-ID: <54C0683A.1090504@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Thu Jan 22 05:30:49 2015 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2015 05:30:49 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] circuit breaker for SW5548 In-Reply-To: <54C0683A.1090504@sindelarsolar.com> References: <20150121122415.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.033790002b.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> <54C06289.4000108@solarray.com> <54C0683A.1090504@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <64E814C1-B603-498D-9474-1831B4A1F627@swnl.net> I believe that that breaker is primarily used for the charging circuit of the SWs.I usually find this tripped during the charge cycle. I would verify; when the breaker trips, check the charge settings menu10 + the AC2 input settings, also check that you don't have a bad battery causing over charging. Let me know off list as I have in my truck a 30A breaker that I use as a replacement for the SWs.Tump On Jan 21, 2015, at 10:02 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > Two relevant details of note here: > 1. The breaker on only the 5548 model was of a "toggle switch" configuration, rather than the push button used on the rest of the models. If you have a push button as you describe, the problem may be that it was an incorrect previous replacement. > 2. As Ray has noted, the 4048 could out surge the 5548. They had different firmware, giving the 5548 a tighter voltage window during surges, resulting in less surge capacity due to less tolerance for voltage dips under surge loads. > Allan > > Allan Sindelar > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > 505 780-2738 cell > > > On 1/21/2015 7:38 PM, Ray Walters wrote: >> Try Mouser electronics. Otherwise, I'd consider bypassing it, and have a regular breaker (30 or 40 amp) on theout put. >> The tripping was probably because the breaker was malfunctioning. Usually the SWs will trip their on board computer to shutdown for over current, and the breaker should never be used. The 5548s were kind of weird though. I never liked those. I've had SW4048s out surge the 5548s hands down. >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> On 1/21/2015 12:24 PM, don at energysolarnow.com wrote: >>> Hi all- >>> I'm having some difficulty finding a replacement for the little push-button circuit breaker on an old Trace SW5548 inverter. This is located on the lower left corner of the box, below the wiring access panel. The customer has had repeated tripping of this breaker from overcurrent, so it has been doing it's job. But now the button won't reset. >>> It's a 35 amp breaker. I have only been able to find smaller ones in the online catalogs. >>> Anyone know of a better parts supplier? >>> Thanks >>> Don Barch >>> Energy Solar >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Thu Jan 22 19:41:59 2015 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2015 16:41:59 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] anyone service Trace inverters in San Jose California area Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, Please contact me offlist if you are interested in servicing a Trace grid tied battery backup system in San Jose California. Best, August August Goers Luminalt Energy Corporation august at luminalt.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Fri Jan 23 15:07:17 2015 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2015 15:07:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider 6048 power output fluctuating widely In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54C2A9F5.40505@entech-engineering.com> We installed a XW 6048 that has wide power output fluctuations over several seconds. Lights flicker, and the inverter squeals. It happens multiple times in a minute The inverter was replaced to no avail. I suspect the local utility's poor line maintenance. When the inverter begins to drop off line, the voltage sags from 123 to 117. This is still within normal parameters, so I don't understand why the inverter would begin to power down. Here is a youtube video of it if anyone has ever seen this before. Schneider has assisted us several times, but cannot find any reason for this happening as a result of their technology. http://youtu.be/EqMwv44p-lc http://youtu.be/ADaL-gEbj4w Thank you, Chris From Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Fri Jan 23 15:39:40 2015 From: Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com (Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2015 12:39:40 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider 6048 power output fluctuating widely In-Reply-To: <54C2A9F5.40505@entech-engineering.com> References: <54C2A9F5.40505@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Hi: >From your description of the problem and the video, I suspect the problem is due to: 1. The inverter is exporting very near full power. 2. The grid voltage rises which at the same AC current results in larger export power flow above the inverters limit. 3. The inverter stops exporting due to reaching its power limit 4. The inverter again starts exporting..... 5. Reaches power limit and stops. 6.etc....... I.E. since the inverter is working close to its power limit on a grid with fluctuating voltage, it goes in and out of max power limit. One way to test if this is the cause is to reduce the Sell Amps so that you are not operating at the power limit of the inverter. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | CANADA | Training & Development Specialist - Senior Phone: +604-422-2528 | Fax: +604-420-1591 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.SEsolar.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Christopher Warfel To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 01/23/2015 12:07 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider 6048 power output fluctuating widely Sent by: "RE-wrenches" We installed a XW 6048 that has wide power output fluctuations over several seconds. Lights flicker, and the inverter squeals. It happens multiple times in a minute The inverter was replaced to no avail. I suspect the local utility's poor line maintenance. When the inverter begins to drop off line, the voltage sags from 123 to 117. This is still within normal parameters, so I don't understand why the inverter would begin to power down. Here is a youtube video of it if anyone has ever seen this before. Schneider has assisted us several times, but cannot find any reason for this happening as a result of their technology. http://youtu.be/EqMwv44p-lc http://youtu.be/ADaL-gEbj4w Thank you, Chris _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 14092 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Sat Jan 24 11:17:41 2015 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2015 11:17:41 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider 6048 power output fluctuating widely In-Reply-To: References: <54C2A9F5.40505@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <54C3C5A5.8080704@entech-engineering.com> Thank you, I will see if that is the solution and get back to either way. Chris On 1/23/2015 3:39 PM, Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com wrote: > Hi: > > From your description of the problem and the video, I suspect the > problem is due to: > > 1. The inverter is exporting very near full power. > 2. The grid voltage rises which at the same AC current results in > larger export power flow above the inverters limit. > 3. The inverter stops exporting due to reaching its power limit > 4. The inverter again starts exporting..... > 5. Reaches power limit and stops. > 6.etc....... > > I.E. since the inverter is working close to its power limit on a grid > with fluctuating voltage, it goes in and out of max power limit. > > One way to test if this is the cause is to reduce the Sell Amps so > that you are not operating at the power limit of the inverter. > > JARMO > _____________________________________________________________________________________ > * > Jarmo Venalainen* | *Schneider Electric **| Solar Business* | > *CANADA* | *Training & Development Specialist - Senior* * > Phone:* +604-422-2528 | *Fax:* +604-420-1591 | *Mobile:* +604-505-0291 * > Email:* _jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com_ > | > *Site:*_www.SEsolar.com_ | *Address:* 3700 > Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 > _ > _ > *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail > > > > From: Christopher Warfel > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org, > Date: 01/23/2015 12:07 PM > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider 6048 power output fluctuating widely > Sent by: "RE-wrenches" > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > We installed a XW 6048 that has wide power output fluctuations over > several seconds. Lights flicker, and the inverter squeals. It happens > multiple times in a minute The inverter was replaced to no avail. I > suspect the local utility's poor line maintenance. When the inverter > begins to drop off line, the voltage sags from 123 to 117. This is > still within normal parameters, so I don't understand why the inverter > would begin to power down. Here is a youtube video of it if anyone has > ever seen this before. Schneider has assisted us several times, but > cannot find any reason for this happening as a result of their technology. > > http://youtu.be/EqMwv44p-lc > > > http://youtu.be/ADaL-gEbj4w > > > Thank you, Chris > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel, President ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 14092 bytes Desc: not available URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Sat Jan 24 13:37:13 2015 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2015 10:37:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider 6048 power output fluctuating widely In-Reply-To: <54C3C5A5.8080704@entech-engineering.com> References: <54C2A9F5.40505@entech-engineering.com> <54C3C5A5.8080704@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <1422124633.193730811@webmail.finestplanet.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: part3.00020005.09000602 Type: image/jpeg Size: 14092 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Sun Jan 25 17:04:23 2015 From: Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com (Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2015 14:04:23 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider 6048 power output fluctuating widely In-Reply-To: <1422124633.193730811@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <54C2A9F5.40505@entech-engineering.com> <54C3C5A5.8080704@entech-engineering.com> <1422124633.193730811@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: Hi Chris: Keeping in mind Todd's comments I'm not sure how your system is set up, but if it has Schneider MPPT charge controllers, then it should be set up in enhanced sell mode. Enhanced sell mode coordinates the sell power so that it always matches the solar harvest power, moment by moment. Using that setting will also charge the battery with a three stage charging algorithm every morning while exporting any excess solar power available which is not needed for charging. Please contact me offline of you would like to go over the settings for this mode of operation. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | CANADA | Training & Development Specialist - Senior Phone: +604-422-2528 | Fax: +604-420-1591 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.SEsolar.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: toddcory at finestplanet.com To: "RE-wrenches" , Date: 01/24/2015 10:37 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider 6048 power output fluctuating widely Sent by: "RE-wrenches" im not sure how the "brand-x" inverters work, but my home system's gvfx3648 suffers from high line voltage, where often when selling at max, the line voltage at the inverter will creep up to the 130 vac limit. when this happens, the inverter doesn't cycle off and on as suggested below, but it actually throttles back on selling current to keep the voltage below the 130 vac limit. this raises the battery voltage until the charge controller throttles back on the incoming pv current to match. todd On Saturday, January 24, 2015 8:17am, "Christopher Warfel" said: Thank you, I will see if that is the solution and get back to either way. Chris On 1/23/2015 3:39 PM, Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com wrote: Hi: >From your description of the problem and the video, I suspect the problem is due to: 1. The inverter is exporting very near full power. 2. The grid voltage rises which at the same AC current results in larger export power flow above the inverters limit. 3. The inverter stops exporting due to reaching its power limit 4. The inverter again starts exporting..... 5. Reaches power limit and stops. 6.etc....... I.E. since the inverter is working close to its power limit on a grid with fluctuating voltage, it goes in and out of max power limit. One way to test if this is the cause is to reduce the Sell Amps so that you are not operating at the power limit of the inverter. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | CANADA | Training & Development Specialist - Senior Phone: +604-422-2528 | Fax: +604-420-1591 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.SEsolar.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Christopher Warfel To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 01/23/2015 12:07 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider 6048 power output fluctuating widely Sent by: "RE-wrenches" We installed a XW 6048 that has wide power output fluctuations over several seconds. Lights flicker, and the inverter squeals. It happens multiple times in a minute The inverter was replaced to no avail. I suspect the local utility's poor line maintenance. When the inverter begins to drop off line, the voltage sags from 123 to 117. This is still within normal parameters, so I don't understand why the inverter would begin to power down. Here is a youtube video of it if anyone has ever seen this before. Schneider has assisted us several times, but cannot find any reason for this happening as a result of their technology. http://youtu.be/EqMwv44p-lc http://youtu.be/ADaL-gEbj4w Thank you, Chris _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Christopher Warfel, President ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 14092 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 14092 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dave at independentpowerllc.com Thu Jan 29 13:58:15 2015 From: dave at independentpowerllc.com (Dave) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 13:58:15 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low wattage 120vac to 24vdc transformer for LED's Message-ID: <00a501d03bf5$8a5bc240$9f1346c0$@com> We are renovating a 25 yr old off grid house and one of things being done is to change some 24vDC circuits to 120vac. The only problem that I'm having is finding a low wattage 120vac to 24vdc transformer for a few strings of 24v LED night lights (a few watts each string) that are built into some nice hardwood trim in the bedrooms. I just tested the following device and found that it uses 29 Watts to power a 3W LED. Not an acceptable load for this house. It is labeled as LED Magnetic Transformer by National Specialty Lighting part # TR24L20DC-M20L24DC-AR Input: 120vac, Output 24vdc, Maximum 20W Is there anything else available that will do this job and use a lot less power than 29 Watts? Thanks, Dave David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-888-7194 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Thu Jan 29 14:04:26 2015 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jefferson Jarvis) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 13:04:26 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low wattage 120vac to 24vdc transformer for LED's In-Reply-To: <00a501d03bf5$8a5bc240$9f1346c0$@com> References: <00a501d03bf5$8a5bc240$9f1346c0$@com> Message-ID: <54CA843A.3090405@aprsworld.com> It's called a switching power supply. There are thousands and thousands of different models. Typically universal input voltage (80 to 300 volts AC, more or less) and DC output. Should be in the upper 70's to mid-90's percent efficiency. Mean Well is a decent quality brand. Prices are good. Buy from Jameco. Just put it at the beginning of the circuit that feeds all your lights. Power supplies are efficient when they are loaded. With no load, efficiency drops to 0%. Like idling your car at the stoplight ... 0 MPG. My house is all low voltage DC lighting. I have a single 200 watt power 120VAC to 24VDC switching power supply that runs everything in the house. -James Jarvis APRS World, LLC On 1/29/2015 12:58 PM, Dave wrote: > We are renovating a 25 yr old off grid house and one of things being > done is to change some 24vDC circuits to 120vac. The only problem that > I'm having is finding a low wattage 120vac to 24vdc transformer for a > few strings of 24v LED night lights (a few watts each string) that are > built into some nice hardwood trim in the bedrooms. > > I just tested the following device and found that it uses 29 Watts to > power a 3W LED. Not an acceptable load for this house. It is labeled as > LED Magnetic Transformer by National Specialty Lighting part # > TR24L20DC-M20L24DC-AR Input: 120vac, Output 24vdc, Maximum 20W > > Is there anything else available that will do this job and use a lot > less power than 29 Watts? > > Thanks, > > Dave > > David Palumbo > > Independent Power LLC > > 462 Solar Way Drive > > Hyde Park, VT 05655 > > 802-888-7194 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 www.aprsworld.com From Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Thu Jan 29 14:08:08 2015 From: Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com (Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 14:08:08 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low wattage 120vac to 24vdc transformer for LED's In-Reply-To: <00a501d03bf5$8a5bc240$9f1346c0$@com> References: <00a501d03bf5$8a5bc240$9f1346c0$@com> Message-ID: Hi: For such a small amount of power you could consider using an energy limiting Class2 transformer as is/was used in old doorbells. You would have to put a bridge rectifier and bulk capacitor on the output to make DC, but that should be ok given the power levels. If you do this, make sure that the bridge rectifier and capacitor are physically very close to the transformer to reduce problems with diode reverse recovery losses which can stress the parts. Here's a link to Hammond transformers of that type, although they are no doubt available from many sources at most electrical supply houses. http://www.hammondmfg.com/ba.htm JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: "Dave" To: "'RE-wrenches'" , Date: 01/29/2015 10:58 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Low wattage 120vac to 24vdc transformer for LED's Sent by: "RE-wrenches" We are renovating a 25 yr old off grid house and one of things being done is to change some 24vDC circuits to 120vac. The only problem that I'm having is finding a low wattage 120vac to 24vdc transformer for a few strings of 24v LED night lights (a few watts each string) that are built into some nice hardwood trim in the bedrooms. I just tested the following device and found that it uses 29 Watts to power a 3W LED. Not an acceptable load for this house. It is labeled as LED Magnetic Transformer by National Specialty Lighting part # TR24L20DC-M20L24DC-AR Input: 120vac, Output 24vdc, Maximum 20W Is there anything else available that will do this job and use a lot less power than 29 Watts? Thanks, Dave David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-888-7194 ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solarphil at gmail.com Thu Jan 29 15:55:34 2015 From: solarphil at gmail.com (Phil Undercuffler) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 12:55:34 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low wattage 120vac to 24vdc transformer for LED's In-Reply-To: References: <00a501d03bf5$8a5bc240$9f1346c0$@com> Message-ID: I've picked up used laptop or printer power supplies at Goodwill or the local electronics recycler for a couple bucks. Take your reading glasses with you, and look for one with an output in the 24-30v range. Phil On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 11:08 AM, wrote: > Hi: > > For such a small amount of power you could consider using an energy > limiting Class2 transformer as is/was used in old doorbells. You would > have to put a bridge rectifier and bulk capacitor on the output to make DC, > but that should be ok given the power levels. If you do this, make sure > that the bridge rectifier and capacitor are physically very close to the > transformer to reduce problems with diode reverse recovery losses which can > stress the parts. > > Here's a link to Hammond transformers of that type, although they are no > doubt available from many sources at most electrical supply houses. > > http://www.hammondmfg.com/ba.htm > > JARMO > > _____________________________________________________________________________________ > > * Jarmo Venalainen* | * Schneider Electric ** | Xantrex Brand* | > *CANADA* | *Sales Application Engineer* > * Phone:* +604-422-2528 | *Tech Support:* 800-670-0707 | *Mobile:* > +604-505-0291 > * Email:* *jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com* > | *Site:** www.Xantrex.com* > | *Address:* 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC > V5G4M1 > > > > > > *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail > > > > From: "Dave" To: "'RE-wrenches'" < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>, Date: 01/29/2015 10:58 AM Subject: Re: > [RE-wrenches] Low wattage 120vac to 24vdc transformer for LED's Sent by: "RE-wrenches" > > ------------------------------ > > > > We are renovating a 25 yr old off grid house and one of things being done > is to change some 24vDC circuits to 120vac. The only problem that I'm > having is finding a low wattage 120vac to 24vdc transformer for a few > strings of 24v LED night lights (a few watts each string) that are built > into some nice hardwood trim in the bedrooms. > I just tested the following device and found that it uses 29 Watts to > power a 3W LED. Not an acceptable load for this house. It is labeled as LED > Magnetic Transformer by National Specialty Lighting part # > TR24L20DC-M20L24DC-AR Input: 120vac, Output 24vdc, Maximum 20W > Is there anything else available that will do this job and use a lot less > power than 29 Watts? > > Thanks, > Dave > > David Palumbo > Independent Power LLC > 462 Solar Way Drive > Hyde Park, VT 05655 > 802-888-7194 > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. > ______________________________________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 33543 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Jan 29 14:14:31 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 12:14:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low wattage 120vac to 24vdc transformer for LED's In-Reply-To: <00a501d03bf5$8a5bc240$9f1346c0$@com> References: <00a501d03bf5$8a5bc240$9f1346c0$@com> Message-ID: <01a701d03bf7$cfec38b0$6fc4aa10$@com> IOTA chargers; 120 vac/24 vdc are super efficient but probably larger than you need, 15 amp at 24 vdc is the smallest unit. I have used them for Sunfrost refrigerators when the utility came in and they wanted to keep the freezer or frig. IOTA chargers essentially turn off when there is no load and only use power proportional to the load when on. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 - No FAX Line "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dave Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2015 11:58 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Low wattage 120vac to 24vdc transformer for LED's We are renovating a 25 yr old off grid house and one of things being done is to change some 24vDC circuits to 120vac. The only problem that I'm having is finding a low wattage 120vac to 24vdc transformer for a few strings of 24v LED night lights (a few watts each string) that are built into some nice hardwood trim in the bedrooms. I just tested the following device and found that it uses 29 Watts to power a 3W LED. Not an acceptable load for this house. It is labeled as LED Magnetic Transformer by National Specialty Lighting part # TR24L20DC-M20L24DC-AR Input: 120vac, Output 24vdc, Maximum 20W Is there anything else available that will do this job and use a lot less power than 29 Watts? Thanks, Dave David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-888-7194 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay at asis.com Thu Jan 29 14:38:49 2015 From: jay at asis.com (Jay Peltz) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 11:38:49 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low wattage 120vac to 24vdc transformer for LED's In-Reply-To: <00a501d03bf5$8a5bc240$9f1346c0$@com> References: <00a501d03bf5$8a5bc240$9f1346c0$@com> Message-ID: I use iota or power max chargers for these old conversions. Jay Peltz power Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 29, 2015, at 10:58 AM, Dave wrote: > > We are renovating a 25 yr old off grid house and one of things being done is to change some 24vDC circuits to 120vac. The only problem that I'm having is finding a low wattage 120vac to 24vdc transformer for a few strings of 24v LED night lights (a few watts each string) that are built into some nice hardwood trim in the bedrooms. > I just tested the following device and found that it uses 29 Watts to power a 3W LED. Not an acceptable load for this house. It is labeled as LED Magnetic Transformer by National Specialty Lighting part # TR24L20DC-M20L24DC-AR Input: 120vac, Output 24vdc, Maximum 20W > Is there anything else available that will do this job and use a lot less power than 29 Watts? > > Thanks, > Dave > > David Palumbo > Independent Power LLC > 462 Solar Way Drive > Hyde Park, VT 05655 > 802-888-7194 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Fri Jan 30 20:02:28 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 18:02:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Inverter Replacement Questions Message-ID: <54CC29A4.9010608@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Jan 30 21:24:40 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 16:24:40 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Inverter Replacement Questions In-Reply-To: <54CC29A4.9010608@sindelarsolar.com> References: <54CC29A4.9010608@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: To much to cover right now but in short I have had no issues with the OB inverters, you just put one with and CC and mate 3 seams to do the trick. The Radian is nice, it is 240 VAC, its smarter but takes up allot of additional space. Cheap quick fix is to put a 2435 in the place of the SW and call it a day. Jerry On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 3:02 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > Esteemed Wrenches, > This question is prompted by a specific customer's situation, and I have a > question related to this, but I'm mainly using the situation to ask a > broader question. > > The specific situation: A customer's Xantrex SW+2524 has been acting > erratically. Fixing the inverter is not the issue; the client is quite > remote, and costs of diagnosis, parts and labor for these legacy units have > gone up enough that the customer has already decided to replace the unit > with a current product. From my perspective, the issues at hand revolve > around how to safely and cleanly install a modern inverter into a system > structured around old equipment. > > The specific question: Outback's FX series is the current product that > most readily replaces the SW/SW+ series: it's also 120V in/out, and it has > DC on the right and AC in/out on the left of a horizontally-laid out unit. > However, several times in recent years I have heard disparaging comments, > both here and in private conversations, about the purported drop in quality > of Outback's inverters and controllers since Alpha bought them, but > specifically because units, or parts of units, are now made in China, > rather than in the U.S. What I want to know, please, are answers to two+ > questions: 1) what's the real scoop? what is now made where? and 2) what > actual experiences, specifically product failures, have any of you had that > directly relate to changes directly attributable to overseas production? In > other words, how much of this is real and how much is rumor? > > The bigger question (and this issue will come up frequently in the coming > years): the SW+, like the SW before it, operates at 120V AC on both input > and output. More and more modern battery-based inverters input and output > split-phase 120/240V AC. When should I hesitate to replace a 120V legacy > inverter with a 120/240V unit? > > Among larger whole-house single inverters, Outback's FX and VFX units > operate at 120V, but these are older models. SMA's Sunny Island is 120V > only, but this is generally considered a weakness in typical SI > installations, and these expensive units don't adapt as well as > replacements in older home systems. Magnum's MS4024 is available in either > configuration. Outback's Radian and Schneider's XW and Conext SW are only > available as 120-240 units. > > Here are the issues that I see: > Don't do it if a backup generator is 120V AC-only. It will work, but is > hard on the inverters, as all charging current will come in on one leg of > the inverter's AC input. Fortunately, relatively few generators are > 120V-only; pretty much just the smaller inverter-generators. Most cheaper > gennies are 240V, and either run through a step-down balancing transformer > (which would be taken out with the old 120V inverter) or run out of > balance. Many better portable generators have a 120/120-240 switch, making > it necessary to only replace a cable and plug to add a second hot conductor. > > Also, most older AC switchgear, such as QO403 inverter bypass switches, > are set up for single pole breakers, and would thus require replacement, > and reworking in general on the AC side to handle two hot input and output > conductors. > > But once the jumper between the two hot legs is removed in the AC main > panel, and two hots are connected, making the panel 120-240, what are the > concerns that I might not have anticipated? Are there any hidden dangers, > or situations where this change could cause problems, especially in AC > distribution? > > Thanks in advance. I hope that I don't regret posting this late on a > Friday... > Allan > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Jan 30 23:45:48 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 21:45:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Inverter Replacement Questions In-Reply-To: <54CC29A4.9010608@sindelarsolar.com> References: <54CC29A4.9010608@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <54CC5DFC.6050106@solarray.com> Hi Allan; You didn't mention the DC load center used, but that would effect the decision, as well as the relative wall space. I've found customers were very happy with an E Panel setup, as they gained floor/ wall space with the upgrade as well. I'm tired of still working in old Trace DC 250 boxes, if I don't have to. For inverters, my vote would be for the Magnum over the Outback, not that we've had reliability issues with either, but mainly the bang for buck factor. The Magnum has the 120/ 240 vac output, more surge and continuous rating than an Outback, and the remote is much lower cost and much easier to use than the MATE 3. I also appreciate that Magnum is policing internet discounting, while Outback is allowing an "anything goes" pricing policy, that makes it hard for a reputable installer to compete. Magnum gets my customers more power for less money, and I can still afford to offer a service warranty and pay the bills. I think I really starting moving away from Outback when they advertised for technical support personnel: "no experience necessary". R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/30/2015 6:02 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > Esteemed Wrenches, > This question is prompted by a specific customer's situation, and I > have a question related to this, but I'm mainly using the situation to > ask a broader question. > > The specific situation: A customer's Xantrex SW+2524 has been acting > erratically. Fixing the inverter is not the issue; the client is quite > remote, and costs of diagnosis, parts and labor for these legacy units > have gone up enough that the customer has already decided to replace > the unit with a current product. From my perspective, the issues at > hand revolve around how to safely and cleanly install a modern > inverter into a system structured around old equipment. > > The specific question: Outback's FX series is the current product that > most readily replaces the SW/SW+ series: it's also 120V in/out, and it > has DC on the right and AC in/out on the left of a horizontally-laid > out unit. However, several times in recent years I have heard > disparaging comments, both here and in private conversations, about > the purported drop in quality of Outback's inverters and controllers > since Alpha bought them, but specifically because units, or parts of > units, are now made in China, rather than in the U.S. What I want to > know, please, are answers to two+ questions: 1) what's the real scoop? > what is now made where? and 2) what actual experiences, specifically > product failures, have any of you had that directly relate to changes > directly attributable to overseas production? In other words, how much > of this is real and how much is rumor? > > The bigger question (and this issue will come up frequently in the > coming years): the SW+, like the SW before it, operates at 120V AC on > both input and output. More and more modern battery-based inverters > input and output split-phase 120/240V AC. When should I hesitate to > replace a 120V legacy inverter with a 120/240V unit? > > Among larger whole-house single inverters, Outback's FX and VFX units > operate at 120V, but these are older models. SMA's Sunny Island is > 120V only, but this is generally considered a weakness in typical SI > installations, and these expensive units don't adapt as well as > replacements in older home systems. Magnum's MS4024 is available in > either configuration. Outback's Radian and Schneider's XW and Conext > SW are only available as 120-240 units. > > Here are the issues that I see: > Don't do it if a backup generator is 120V AC-only. It will work, but > is hard on the inverters, as all charging current will come in on one > leg of the inverter's AC input. Fortunately, relatively few generators > are 120V-only; pretty much just the smaller inverter-generators. Most > cheaper gennies are 240V, and either run through a step-down balancing > transformer (which would be taken out with the old 120V inverter) or > run out of balance. Many better portable generators have a 120/120-240 > switch, making it necessary to only replace a cable and plug to add a > second hot conductor. > > Also, most older AC switchgear, such as QO403 inverter bypass > switches, are set up for single pole breakers, and would thus require > replacement, and reworking in general on the AC side to handle two hot > input and output conductors. > > But once the jumper between the two hot legs is removed in the AC main > panel, and two hots are connected, making the panel 120-240, what are > the concerns that I might not have anticipated? Are there any hidden > dangers, or situations where this change could cause problems, > especially in AC distribution? > > Thanks in advance. I hope that I don't regret posting this late on a > Friday... > Allan > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > ** > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sat Jan 31 00:48:16 2015 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 22:48:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Inverter Replacement Questions In-Reply-To: <54CC5DFC.6050106@solarray.com> References: <54CC29A4.9010608@sindelarsolar.com> <54CC5DFC.6050106@solarray.com> Message-ID: On a similar but slightly different note, has anyone tried the Outback "mini" Radian 4048? The Mate3? The half size Radian still costs more than the Magnum PAE, and the Mate3 + Flexnet-DC+Hub etc. cost way more than the Magnum remote and battery monitor. I stopped using Outback a few years back because of the non-intuitive old remote that inquisitive clients could accidentally re-program; the Mate3 looks like a great improvement though. Haven't tried it. Interesting that the Big Three all have approx 4kW 48VDC 120/240 units available now. I love the Magnum remotes, I have successfully walked a client through some serious inverter and gencharger settings changes via satellite SMS texting to them in their wilderness, when I had no users manual available. "Until you click in the big black button, you are just browsing, no worries" etc. And just install the cheap Magnum battery monitor and it suddenly appears on the remote as % SOC....after a couple charge/discharges where it says "Thinkin..." customers love that. But how accurate is it? How does it compare to the Bogart gear, and the Midnite Whizbang? I've just started some testing on my home guinea pig system to try and get some data. Will report here. How does the new mini Radian compare with the Magnum PAE on surge......lights flickering when the fridge turns on, etc? Of course on the Magnum it's ugly with a 12v, noticeable with a 24v and minor with a 48v in my experience so far. Off the grid, and the more remote the install, the more I feel "married" to these systems. Just asking for any info to file away for future "pre-nups" Best regards; Dan Fink Buckville Energy IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 9:45 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > Hi Allan; > > You didn't mention the DC load center used, but that would effect the > decision, as well as the relative wall space. I've found customers were > very happy with an E Panel setup, as they gained floor/ wall space with the > upgrade as well. I'm tired of still working in old Trace DC 250 boxes, if I > don't have to. > For inverters, my vote would be for the Magnum over the Outback, not that > we've had reliability issues with either, but mainly the bang for buck > factor. > The Magnum has the 120/ 240 vac output, more surge and continuous rating > than an Outback, and the remote is much lower cost and much easier to use > than the MATE 3. I also appreciate that Magnum is policing internet > discounting, while Outback is allowing an "anything goes" pricing policy, > that makes it hard for a reputable installer to compete. Magnum gets my > customers more power for less money, and I can still afford to offer a > service warranty and pay the bills. I think I really starting moving away > from Outback when they advertised for technical support personnel: "no > experience necessary". > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Sun Feb 1 09:19:05 2015 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 09:19:05 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Inverter Replacement Questions In-Reply-To: <54CC29A4.9010608@sindelarsolar.com> References: <54CC29A4.9010608@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <5ADE3358-386A-41F5-9361-3420FB518E37@swnl.net> Allan, are you planning on replacing the battery bank as well? If so SMA is always first choice, despite their price point. As with ANY inverter you will probably have an issue. As remote as site is, I always consider what manufacture really does compensate you and how quickly do they get you a replacement...... Hands down SMA. 120 SPh works with the old gen set, works well with the Trace DC250, (and these expensive units don't adapt as well as replacements in older home systems) NOT!, talks to Midnights CCs any 220 load is readily installed w/ a t former. No longer are the manus making boards readily available so no more field servicing. If the battery bank is not to be replaced then the OBVFX product line, these units do not need additional software/computer/internet service to service unlike the some others.. .. "oh yeah you need to remove the 01-27 & replace it with the right file 01-277" sound familiar to any one else? TIME VERSES LABOR your last sentence would be a wake up call all the $$$$$$$ you will need to upgrade this old system why would you use anything other then the SMA SI if you too are going to replace the batteries. I also will do a bench test so I am not surprised with ANY remote install. Pain in the butt but certainly lot less problematic for you and your reputation. On Jan 30, 2015, at 8:02 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > Esteemed Wrenches, > This question is prompted by a specific customer's situation, and I have a question related to this, but I'm mainly using the situation to ask a broader question. > > The specific situation: A customer's Xantrex SW+2524 has been acting erratically. Fixing the inverter is not the issue; the client is quite remote, and costs of diagnosis, parts and labor for these legacy units have gone up enough that the customer has already decided to replace the unit with a current product. From my perspective, the issues at hand revolve around how to safely and cleanly install a modern inverter into a system structured around old equipment. > > The specific question: Outback's FX series is the current product that most readily replaces the SW/SW+ series: it's also 120V in/out, and it has DC on the right and AC in/out on the left of a horizontally-laid out unit. However, several times in recent years I have heard disparaging comments, both here and in private conversations, about the purported drop in quality of Outback's inverters and controllers since Alpha bought them, but specifically because units, or parts of units, are now made in China, rather than in the U.S. What I want to know, please, are answers to two+ questions: 1) what's the real scoop? what is now made where? and 2) what actual experiences, specifically product failures, have any of you had that directly relate to changes directly attributable to overseas production? In other words, how much of this is real and how much is rumor? > > The bigger question (and this issue will come up frequently in the coming years): the SW+, like the SW before it, operates at 120V AC on both input and output. More and more modern battery-based inverters input and output split-phase 120/240V AC. When should I hesitate to replace a 120V legacy inverter with a 120/240V unit? > > Among larger whole-house single inverters, Outback's FX and VFX units operate at 120V, but these are older models. SMA's Sunny Island is 120V only, but this is generally considered a weakness in typical SI installations, . Magnum's MS4024 is available in either configuration. Outback's Radian and Schneider's XW and Conext SW are only available as 120-240 units. > > Here are the issues that I see: > Don't do it if a backup generator is 120V AC-only. It will work, but is hard on the inverters, as all charging current will come in on one leg of the inverter's AC input. Fortunately, relatively few generators are 120V-only; pretty much just the smaller inverter-generators. Most cheaper gennies are 240V, and either run through a step-down balancing transformer (which would be taken out with the old 120V inverter) or run out of balance. Many better portable generators have a 120/120-240 switch, making it necessary to only replace a cable and plug to add a second hot conductor. > > Also, most older AC switchgear, such as QO403 inverter bypass switches, are set up for single pole breakers, and would thus require replacement, and reworking in general on the AC side to handle two hot input and output conductors. > > But once the jumper between the two hot legs is removed in the AC main panel, and two hots are connected, making the panel 120-240, what are the concerns that I might not have anticipated? Are there any hidden dangers, or situations where this change could cause problems, especially in AC distribution? > > Thanks in advance. I hope that I don't regret posting this late on a Friday... > Allan > -- > Allan Sindelar > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > 505 780-2738 cell > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Mon Feb 2 10:34:14 2015 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2015 10:34:14 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions In-Reply-To: <5ADE3358-386A-41F5-9361-3420FB518E37@swnl.net> References: <54CC29A4.9010608@sindelarsolar.com> <5ADE3358-386A-41F5-9361-3420FB518E37@swnl.net> Message-ID: <54CF98F6.5000505@entech-engineering.com> We have a interpretation problem among some people I work with with, and 690.12 Rapid Shut Down and the the 10 second time for reducing ac and dc conductors to 240ma, and 30V. The word "initiation" seems to indicate that all affected conductors need to be at these levels within 10 seconds of de-energizing either the ac or dc conductors. If so, then the disconnects need to be co-located to meet this requirement if this interpretation is correct. I have read Mr. Brook's article in Solar Pro, but AHJs may feel differently. Would anyone care to weigh in on their interpretation? Thank you, Chris -- Christopher Warfel, President ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 100 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Feb 2 10:43:06 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2015 05:43:06 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions In-Reply-To: <54CF98F6.5000505@entech-engineering.com> References: <54CC29A4.9010608@sindelarsolar.com> <5ADE3358-386A-41F5-9361-3420FB518E37@swnl.net> <54CF98F6.5000505@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Wrenches We have installed some of these rapid shut down units and they are always located close to the array and ours kill the DC instantly as long as the inverter was running when this accures did not test it with inverters already off. Jerry On Feb 2, 2015 5:34 AM, "Christopher Warfel" wrote: > We have a interpretation problem among some people I work with with, and > 690.12 Rapid Shut Down and the the 10 second time for reducing ac and dc > conductors to 240ma, and 30V. The word "initiation" seems to indicate that > all affected conductors need to be at these levels within 10 seconds of > de-energizing either the ac or dc conductors. If so, then the disconnects > need to be co-located to meet this requirement if this interpretation is > correct. > > I have read Mr. Brook's article in Solar Pro, but AHJs may feel > differently. > > Would anyone care to weigh in on their interpretation? > > Thank you, Chris > > > > > > -- > Christopher Warfel, President > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > 401-466-8978 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Mon Feb 2 10:49:28 2015 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2015 07:49:28 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions In-Reply-To: References: <54CC29A4.9010608@sindelarsolar.com> <5ADE3358-386A-41F5-9361-3420FB518E37@swnl.net> <54CF98F6.5000505@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <54CF9C88.6000800@berkeleysolar.com> Jerry, What unit did you use? Mark Frye On 2/2/2015 7:43 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Wrenches > We have installed some of these rapid shut down units and they are > always located close to the array and ours kill the DC instantly as > long as the inverter was running when this accures did not test it > with inverters already off. > Jerry > > On Feb 2, 2015 5:34 AM, "Christopher Warfel" > > wrote: > > We have a interpretation problem among some people I work with > with, and 690.12 Rapid Shut Down and the the 10 second time for > reducing ac and dc conductors to 240ma, and 30V. The word > "initiation" seems to indicate that all affected conductors need > to be at these levels within 10 seconds of de-energizing either > the ac or dc conductors. If so, then the disconnects need to be > co-located to meet this requirement if this interpretation is correct. > > I have read Mr. Brook's article in Solar Pro, but AHJs may feel > differently. > > Would anyone care to weigh in on their interpretation? > > Thank you, Chris > > > > > > -- > Christopher Warfel, President > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > 401-466-8978 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Mon Feb 2 11:14:51 2015 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2015 11:14:51 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions In-Reply-To: <54CF98F6.5000505@entech-engineering.com> References: <54CC29A4.9010608@sindelarsolar.com> <5ADE3358-386A-41F5-9361-3420FB518E37@swnl.net> <54CF98F6.5000505@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <000801d03f03$60e708f0$22b51ad0$@burt@glbcc.com> Chris, I am not seeing any code reference to AC being affected by 690.12. in fact it seems to specifically address only DC circuits. In Mike Holt's new PV and the NEC book, his note recommends that the rapid shutdown initiator be located near the service equipment, however this is not addressed by the code. -Glenn Burt -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Christopher Warfel Sent: Monday, February 02, 2015 10:34 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions We have a interpretation problem among some people I work with with, and 690.12 Rapid Shut Down and the the 10 second time for reducing ac and dc conductors to 240ma, and 30V. The word "initiation" seems to indicate that all affected conductors need to be at these levels within 10 seconds of de-energizing either the ac or dc conductors. If so, then the disconnects need to be co-located to meet this requirement if this interpretation is correct. I have read Mr. Brook's article in Solar Pro, but AHJs may feel differently. Would anyone care to weigh in on their interpretation? Thank you, Chris -- Christopher Warfel, President ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Feb 2 12:13:15 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2015 07:13:15 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions In-Reply-To: <54CF9C88.6000800@berkeleysolar.com> References: <54CC29A4.9010608@sindelarsolar.com> <5ADE3358-386A-41F5-9361-3420FB518E37@swnl.net> <54CF98F6.5000505@entech-engineering.com> <54CF9C88.6000800@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: The units we have used have a large contactor inside the combiner box made by AMtec Solar. this was required to control the shut down includes a fire button done on the ground floor Jerry On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 5:49 AM, Mark Frye wrote: > Jerry, > > What unit did you use? > > Mark Frye > > > On 2/2/2015 7:43 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Wrenches > We have installed some of these rapid shut down units and they are always > located close to the array and ours kill the DC instantly as long as the > inverter was running when this accures did not test it with inverters > already off. > Jerry > On Feb 2, 2015 5:34 AM, "Christopher Warfel" < > cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: > >> We have a interpretation problem among some people I work with with, and >> 690.12 Rapid Shut Down and the the 10 second time for reducing ac and dc >> conductors to 240ma, and 30V. The word "initiation" seems to indicate that >> all affected conductors need to be at these levels within 10 seconds of >> de-energizing either the ac or dc conductors. If so, then the disconnects >> need to be co-located to meet this requirement if this interpretation is >> correct. >> >> I have read Mr. Brook's article in Solar Pro, but AHJs may feel >> differently. >> >> Would anyone care to weigh in on their interpretation? >> >> Thank you, Chris >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Christopher Warfel, President >> ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >> 401-466-8978 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Mon Feb 2 13:28:43 2015 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2015 10:28:43 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions In-Reply-To: References: <54CC29A4.9010608@sindelarsolar.com> <5ADE3358-386A-41F5-9361-3420FB518E37@swnl.net> <54CF98F6.5000505@entech-engineering.com> <54CF9C88.6000800@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: <54CFC1DB.2030308@berkeleysolar.com> OK. So did you run a line 120V up to the box on the roof to energize the coil of the relay up there? Mark Frye On 2/2/2015 9:13 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > The units we have used have a large contactor inside the combiner box > made by AMtec Solar. this was required to control the shut down > includes a fire button done on the ground floor > Jerry > > On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 5:49 AM, Mark Frye > wrote: > > Jerry, > > What unit did you use? > > Mark Frye > > > On 2/2/2015 7:43 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >> >> Wrenches >> We have installed some of these rapid shut down units and they >> are always located close to the array and ours kill the DC >> instantly as long as the inverter was running when this accures >> did not test it with inverters already off. >> Jerry >> >> On Feb 2, 2015 5:34 AM, "Christopher Warfel" >> > > wrote: >> >> We have a interpretation problem among some people I work >> with with, and 690.12 Rapid Shut Down and the the 10 second >> time for reducing ac and dc conductors to 240ma, and 30V. >> The word "initiation" seems to indicate that all affected >> conductors need to be at these levels within 10 seconds of >> de-energizing either the ac or dc conductors. If so, then the >> disconnects need to be co-located to meet this requirement if >> this interpretation is correct. >> >> I have read Mr. Brook's article in Solar Pro, but AHJs may >> feel differently. >> >> Would anyone care to weigh in on their interpretation? >> >> Thank you, Chris >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Christopher Warfel, President >> ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >> 401-466-8978 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Mon Feb 2 13:52:58 2015 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2015 13:52:58 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions In-Reply-To: <54CFC1DB.2030308@berkeleysolar.com> References: <54CC29A4.9010608@sindelarsolar.com> <5ADE3358-386A-41F5-9361-3420FB518E37@swnl.net> <54CF98F6.5000505@entech-engineering.com> <54CF9C88.6000800@berkeleysolar.com> <54CFC1DB.2030308@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: <003b01d03f19$77c0f110$6742d330$@burt@glbcc.com> Looks like they use 24VDC for contactor activation, not 120VAC. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mark Frye Sent: Monday, February 02, 2015 1:29 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions OK. So did you run a line 120V up to the box on the roof to energize the coil of the relay up there? Mark Frye On 2/2/2015 9:13 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: The units we have used have a large contactor inside the combiner box made by AMtec Solar. this was required to control the shut down includes a fire button done on the ground floor Jerry On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 5:49 AM, Mark Frye wrote: Jerry, What unit did you use? Mark Frye On 2/2/2015 7:43 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Wrenches We have installed some of these rapid shut down units and they are always located close to the array and ours kill the DC instantly as long as the inverter was running when this accures did not test it with inverters already off. Jerry On Feb 2, 2015 5:34 AM, "Christopher Warfel" wrote: We have a interpretation problem among some people I work with with, and 690.12 Rapid Shut Down and the the 10 second time for reducing ac and dc conductors to 240ma, and 30V. The word "initiation" seems to indicate that all affected conductors need to be at these levels within 10 seconds of de-energizing either the ac or dc conductors. If so, then the disconnects need to be co-located to meet this requirement if this interpretation is correct. I have read Mr. Brook's article in Solar Pro, but AHJs may feel differently. Would anyone care to weigh in on their interpretation? Thank you, Chris -- Christopher Warfel, President ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Mon Feb 2 14:11:22 2015 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2015 11:11:22 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions In-Reply-To: <003b01d03f19$77c0f110$6742d330$@burt@glbcc.com> References: <54CC29A4.9010608@sindelarsolar.com> <5ADE3358-386A-41F5-9361-3420FB518E37@swnl.net> <54CF98F6.5000505@entech-engineering.com> <54CF9C88.6000800@berkeleysolar.com> <54CFC1DB.2030308@berkeleysolar.com> <003b01d03f19$77c0f110$6742d330$@burt@glbcc.com> Message-ID: <54CFCBDA.6010407@berkeleysolar.com> I see. So they have another box on the ground floor with the "kill" switch and that box includes a 120/240 vac to 24vdc xfrm to drive the contactor coil on the roof? So you run 120/240 vac to the box with the "kill" switch? Mark Frye On 2/2/2015 10:52 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: > > Looks like they use 24VDC for contactor activation, not 120VAC. > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On Behalf Of *Mark Frye > *Sent:* Monday, February 02, 2015 1:29 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule > Questions > > OK. So did you run a line 120V up to the box on the roof to energize > the coil of the relay up there? > > Mark Frye > > On 2/2/2015 9:13 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > The units we have used have a large contactor inside the combiner > box made by AMtec Solar. this was required to control the shut > down includes a fire button done on the ground floor > > Jerry > > On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 5:49 AM, Mark Frye > wrote: > > Jerry, > > What unit did you use? > > Mark Frye > > On 2/2/2015 7:43 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Wrenches > We have installed some of these rapid shut down units and they > are always located close to the array and ours kill the DC > instantly as long as the inverter was running when this > accures did not test it with inverters already off. > Jerry > > On Feb 2, 2015 5:34 AM, "Christopher Warfel" > > wrote: > > We have a interpretation problem among some people I work with > with, and 690.12 Rapid Shut Down and the the 10 second time > for reducing ac and dc conductors to 240ma, and 30V. The word > "initiation" seems to indicate that all affected conductors > need to be at these levels within 10 seconds of de-energizing > either the ac or dc conductors. If so, then the disconnects > need to be co-located to meet this requirement if this > interpretation is correct. > > I have read Mr. Brook's article in Solar Pro, but AHJs may > feel differently. > > Would anyone care to weigh in on their interpretation? > > Thank you, Chris > > > > > > -- > Christopher Warfel, President > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > 401-466-8978 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Feb 2 14:41:08 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2015 09:41:08 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions In-Reply-To: <54CFC1DB.2030308@berkeleysolar.com> References: <54CC29A4.9010608@sindelarsolar.com> <5ADE3358-386A-41F5-9361-3420FB518E37@swnl.net> <54CF98F6.5000505@entech-engineering.com> <54CF9C88.6000800@berkeleysolar.com> <54CFC1DB.2030308@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: As i recall it was 24 volt On Feb 2, 2015 8:28 AM, "Mark Frye" wrote: > OK. So did you run a line 120V up to the box on the roof to energize the > coil of the relay up there? > > Mark Frye > > On 2/2/2015 9:13 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > The units we have used have a large contactor inside the combiner box > made by AMtec Solar. this was required to control the shut down includes a > fire button done on the ground floor > Jerry > > On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 5:49 AM, Mark Frye wrote: > >> Jerry, >> >> What unit did you use? >> >> Mark Frye >> >> >> On 2/2/2015 7:43 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >> >> Wrenches >> We have installed some of these rapid shut down units and they are always >> located close to the array and ours kill the DC instantly as long as the >> inverter was running when this accures did not test it with inverters >> already off. >> Jerry >> On Feb 2, 2015 5:34 AM, "Christopher Warfel" < >> cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: >> >>> We have a interpretation problem among some people I work with with, >>> and 690.12 Rapid Shut Down and the the 10 second time for reducing ac and >>> dc conductors to 240ma, and 30V. The word "initiation" seems to indicate >>> that all affected conductors need to be at these levels within 10 seconds >>> of de-energizing either the ac or dc conductors. If so, then the >>> disconnects need to be co-located to meet this requirement if this >>> interpretation is correct. >>> >>> I have read Mr. Brook's article in Solar Pro, but AHJs may feel >>> differently. >>> >>> Would anyone care to weigh in on their interpretation? >>> >>> Thank you, Chris >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Christopher Warfel, President >>> ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >>> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >>> 401-466-8978 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Mon Feb 2 16:06:39 2015 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2015 13:06:39 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions In-Reply-To: <54CFCBDA.6010407@berkeleysolar.com> References: <54CC29A4.9010608@sindelarsolar.com> <5ADE3358-386A-41F5-9361-3420FB518E37@swnl.net> <54CF98F6.5000505@entech-engineering.com> <54CF9C88.6000800@berkeleysolar.com> <54CFC1DB.2030308@berkeleysolar.com> <003b01d03f19$77c0f110$6742d330$@burt@glbcc.com> <54CFCBDA.6010407@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: <54CFE6DF.703@berkeleysolar.com> I really do wonder then... Right now, you go up to the burning house and pull the meter, bingo, no AC anywhere. So why do we need the "kill" switch next to the service (or where ever).... IF you drive the roof top contactor with 120vac or with 24 vdc made from a power supply powered by 120vac. Either way, pull the meter, no more AC and no more power to the contactor coil on the roof, so DC limited to the location of the contactor. Not really sure how the requirement for the stop switch got into the Code. Mark Frye On 2/2/2015 11:11 AM, Mark Frye wrote: > I see. So they have another box on the ground floor with the "kill" > switch and that box includes a 120/240 vac to 24vdc xfrm to drive the > contactor coil on the roof? So you run 120/240 vac to the box with > the "kill" switch? > > Mark Frye > On 2/2/2015 10:52 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: >> >> Looks like they use 24VDC for contactor activation, not 120VAC. >> >> *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] >> *On Behalf Of *Mark Frye >> *Sent:* Monday, February 02, 2015 1:29 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule >> Questions >> >> OK. So did you run a line 120V up to the box on the roof to energize >> the coil of the relay up there? >> >> Mark Frye >> >> On 2/2/2015 9:13 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >> >> The units we have used have a large contactor inside the combiner >> box made by AMtec Solar. this was required to control the shut >> down includes a fire button done on the ground floor >> >> Jerry >> >> On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 5:49 AM, Mark Frye >> > wrote: >> >> Jerry, >> >> What unit did you use? >> >> Mark Frye >> >> On 2/2/2015 7:43 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >> >> Wrenches >> We have installed some of these rapid shut down units and >> they are always located close to the array and ours kill the >> DC instantly as long as the inverter was running when this >> accures did not test it with inverters already off. >> Jerry >> >> On Feb 2, 2015 5:34 AM, "Christopher Warfel" >> > > wrote: >> >> We have a interpretation problem among some people I work >> with with, and 690.12 Rapid Shut Down and the the 10 second >> time for reducing ac and dc conductors to 240ma, and 30V. >> The word "initiation" seems to indicate that all affected >> conductors need to be at these levels within 10 seconds of >> de-energizing either the ac or dc conductors. If so, then the >> disconnects need to be co-located to meet this requirement if >> this interpretation is correct. >> >> I have read Mr. Brook's article in Solar Pro, but AHJs may >> feel differently. >> >> Would anyone care to weigh in on their interpretation? >> >> Thank you, Chris >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Christopher Warfel, President >> ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >> 401-466-8978 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Feb 2 16:09:36 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2015 11:09:36 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions In-Reply-To: <54CFE6DF.703@berkeleysolar.com> References: <54CC29A4.9010608@sindelarsolar.com> <5ADE3358-386A-41F5-9361-3420FB518E37@swnl.net> <54CF98F6.5000505@entech-engineering.com> <54CF9C88.6000800@berkeleysolar.com> <54CFC1DB.2030308@berkeleysolar.com> <54CFCBDA.6010407@berkeleysolar.com> <54CFE6DF.703@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: You pull the meter you close the contact thats it so ypu dont hit the button but same results On Feb 2, 2015 11:06 AM, "Mark Frye" wrote: > I really do wonder then... > > Right now, you go up to the burning house and pull the meter, bingo, no AC > anywhere. So why do we need the "kill" switch next to the service (or where > ever).... IF you drive the roof top contactor with 120vac or with 24 vdc > made from a power supply powered by 120vac. Either way, pull the meter, no > more AC and no more power to the contactor coil on the roof, so DC limited > to the location of the contactor. > > Not really sure how the requirement for the stop switch got into the Code. > > Mark Frye > > On 2/2/2015 11:11 AM, Mark Frye wrote: > > I see. So they have another box on the ground floor with the "kill" switch > and that box includes a 120/240 vac to 24vdc xfrm to drive the contactor > coil on the roof? So you run 120/240 vac to the box with the "kill" switch? > > Mark Frye > On 2/2/2015 10:52 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: > > Looks like they use 24VDC for contactor activation, not 120VAC. > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of *Mark Frye > *Sent:* Monday, February 02, 2015 1:29 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule > Questions > > > > OK. So did you run a line 120V up to the box on the roof to energize the > coil of the relay up there? > > Mark Frye > > On 2/2/2015 9:13 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > The units we have used have a large contactor inside the combiner box > made by AMtec Solar. this was required to control the shut down includes a > fire button done on the ground floor > > Jerry > > > > On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 5:49 AM, Mark Frye wrote: > > Jerry, > > What unit did you use? > > Mark Frye > > > > On 2/2/2015 7:43 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Wrenches > We have installed some of these rapid shut down units and they are always > located close to the array and ours kill the DC instantly as long as the > inverter was running when this accures did not test it with inverters > already off. > Jerry > > On Feb 2, 2015 5:34 AM, "Christopher Warfel" < > cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: > > We have a interpretation problem among some people I work with with, and > 690.12 Rapid Shut Down and the the 10 second time for reducing ac and dc > conductors to 240ma, and 30V. The word "initiation" seems to indicate that > all affected conductors need to be at these levels within 10 seconds of > de-energizing either the ac or dc conductors. If so, then the disconnects > need to be co-located to meet this requirement if this interpretation is > correct. > > I have read Mr. Brook's article in Solar Pro, but AHJs may feel > differently. > > Would anyone care to weigh in on their interpretation? > > Thank you, Chris > > > > > > -- > Christopher Warfel, President > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > 401-466-8978 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Mon Feb 2 16:11:48 2015 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2015 13:11:48 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions In-Reply-To: References: <54CC29A4.9010608@sindelarsolar.com> <5ADE3358-386A-41F5-9361-3420FB518E37@swnl.net> <54CF98F6.5000505@entech-engineering.com> <54CF9C88.6000800@berkeleysolar.com> <54CFC1DB.2030308@berkeleysolar.com> <54CFCBDA.6010407@berkeleysolar.com> <54CFE6DF.703@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: <54CFE814.4010906@berkeleysolar.com> Right, so the the "kill" switch is not really needed, but yet it is required....! ? On 2/2/2015 1:09 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > You pull the meter you close the contact thats it so ypu dont hit the > button but same results > > On Feb 2, 2015 11:06 AM, "Mark Frye" > wrote: > > I really do wonder then... > > Right now, you go up to the burning house and pull the meter, > bingo, no AC anywhere. So why do we need the "kill" switch next to > the service (or where ever).... IF you drive the roof top > contactor with 120vac or with 24 vdc made from a power supply > powered by 120vac. Either way, pull the meter, no more AC and no > more power to the contactor coil on the roof, so DC limited to the > location of the contactor. > > Not really sure how the requirement for the stop switch got into > the Code. > > Mark Frye > > On 2/2/2015 11:11 AM, Mark Frye wrote: >> I see. So they have another box on the ground floor with the >> "kill" switch and that box includes a 120/240 vac to 24vdc xfrm >> to drive the contactor coil on the roof? So you run 120/240 vac >> to the box with the "kill" switch? >> >> Mark Frye >> On 2/2/2015 10:52 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: >>> >>> Looks like they use 24VDC for contactor activation, not 120VAC. >>> >>> *From:*RE-wrenches >>> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of >>> *Mark Frye >>> *Sent:* Monday, February 02, 2015 1:29 PM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second >>> Rule Questions >>> >>> OK. So did you run a line 120V up to the box on the roof to >>> energize the coil of the relay up there? >>> >>> Mark Frye >>> >>> On 2/2/2015 9:13 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >>> >>> The units we have used have a large contactor inside the >>> combiner box made by AMtec Solar. this was required to >>> control the shut down includes a fire button done on the >>> ground floor >>> >>> Jerry >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 5:49 AM, Mark Frye >>> > >>> wrote: >>> >>> Jerry, >>> >>> What unit did you use? >>> >>> Mark Frye >>> >>> On 2/2/2015 7:43 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >>> >>> Wrenches >>> We have installed some of these rapid shut down units >>> and they are always located close to the array and ours >>> kill the DC instantly as long as the inverter was >>> running when this accures did not test it with inverters >>> already off. >>> Jerry >>> >>> On Feb 2, 2015 5:34 AM, "Christopher Warfel" >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> We have a interpretation problem among some people I >>> work with with, and 690.12 Rapid Shut Down and the the >>> 10 second time for reducing ac and dc conductors to >>> 240ma, and 30V. The word "initiation" seems to indicate >>> that all affected conductors need to be at these levels >>> within 10 seconds of de-energizing either the ac or dc >>> conductors. If so, then the disconnects need to be >>> co-located to meet this requirement if this >>> interpretation is correct. >>> >>> I have read Mr. Brook's article in Solar Pro, but AHJs >>> may feel differently. >>> >>> Would anyone care to weigh in on their interpretation? >>> >>> Thank you, Chris >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Christopher Warfel, President >>> ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >>> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >>> 401-466-8978 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Mon Feb 2 16:23:40 2015 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2015 13:23:40 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How to isolate the array DC Message-ID: <54CFEADC.9080608@berkeleysolar.com> In order to clear up the conversation... I you put a relay in a box within 10 feet of the array on the roof, you can use an relay with a DC rated Normally Open contact to open and connect/isolate the array DC voltage. You can drive the coil of that relay with either AC or DC, but either way, if you lose voltage to drive the coil, the contact opens and isolates. My point is, for simple grid-tied system, there is no need for a "stop" switch anywhere in the system. It doesn't matter whether the contactor coil is driven by the premise AC or by a DC power supply connected to the premise AC, when the the main is opened or the meter pulled, the array Dc will become isolate. Therefore, there is no need for the "stop" switch and yet as I understand it, such a switch is now required by the Code. The switch is not needed but is required. Mark Frye From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Mon Feb 2 16:36:17 2015 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2015 16:36:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How to isolate the array DC In-Reply-To: <54CFEADC.9080608@berkeleysolar.com> References: <54CFEADC.9080608@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: <008401d03f30$494e4230$dbeac690$@burt@glbcc.com> I only read where it is necessary to provide the operation of rapid shutdown and the system be labeled accordingly, not that it needs a dedicated switch to perform the function. Glenn -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mark Frye Sent: Monday, February 02, 2015 4:24 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] How to isolate the array DC In order to clear up the conversation... I you put a relay in a box within 10 feet of the array on the roof, you can use an relay with a DC rated Normally Open contact to open and connect/isolate the array DC voltage. You can drive the coil of that relay with either AC or DC, but either way, if you lose voltage to drive the coil, the contact opens and isolates. My point is, for simple grid-tied system, there is no need for a "stop" switch anywhere in the system. It doesn't matter whether the contactor coil is driven by the premise AC or by a DC power supply connected to the premise AC, when the the main is opened or the meter pulled, the array Dc will become isolate. Therefore, there is no need for the "stop" switch and yet as I understand it, such a switch is now required by the Code. The switch is not needed but is required. Mark Frye _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Mon Feb 2 16:43:55 2015 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2015 16:43:55 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions In-Reply-To: <000801d03f03$60e708f0$22b51ad0$@burt@glbcc.com> References: <54CC29A4.9010608@sindelarsolar.com> <5ADE3358-386A-41F5-9361-3420FB518E37@swnl.net> <54CF98F6.5000505@entech-engineering.com> <000801d03f03$60e708f0$22b51ad0$@burt@glbcc.com> Message-ID: <54CFEF9B.3080909@entech-engineering.com> I thought it was dc only also, but PV System Conductors is not defined as dc, so it could be interpreted as ac and dc. Chris On 2/2/2015 11:14 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: > Chris, > I am not seeing any code reference to AC being affected by 690.12. in fact > it seems to specifically address only DC circuits. > In Mike Holt's new PV and the NEC book, his note recommends that the rapid > shutdown initiator be located near the service equipment, however this is > not addressed by the code. > > -Glenn Burt > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Christopher Warfel > Sent: Monday, February 02, 2015 10:34 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions > > We have a interpretation problem among some people I work with with, and > 690.12 Rapid Shut Down and the the 10 second time for reducing ac and dc > conductors to 240ma, and 30V. The word "initiation" seems to indicate that > all affected conductors need to be at these levels within > 10 seconds of de-energizing either the ac or dc conductors. If so, then the > disconnects need to be co-located to meet this requirement if this > interpretation is correct. > > I have read Mr. Brook's article in Solar Pro, but AHJs may feel differently. > > Would anyone care to weigh in on their interpretation? > > Thank you, Chris > > > > > > -- > Christopher Warfel, President > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > 401-466-8978 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Christopher Warfel, President ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 100 bytes Desc: not available URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Mon Feb 2 16:49:59 2015 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2015 13:49:59 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How to isolate the array DC In-Reply-To: <008401d03f30$494e4230$dbeac690$@burt@glbcc.com> References: <54CFEADC.9080608@berkeleysolar.com> <008401d03f30$494e4230$dbeac690$@burt@glbcc.com> Message-ID: <54CFF107.6050709@berkeleysolar.com> OK, good. So the various "initiator" switches being sold by various vendors are completely optional. Or rather, you can build a compliant rapid shut down system which does not include such a switch. On 2/2/2015 1:36 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: > I only read where it is necessary to provide the operation of rapid shutdown > and the system be labeled accordingly, not that it needs a dedicated switch > to perform the function. > > Glenn > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Mark Frye > Sent: Monday, February 02, 2015 4:24 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] How to isolate the array DC > > In order to clear up the conversation... > > I you put a relay in a box within 10 feet of the array on the roof, you can > use an relay with a DC rated Normally Open contact to open and > connect/isolate the array DC voltage. > > You can drive the coil of that relay with either AC or DC, but either way, > if you lose voltage to drive the coil, the contact opens and isolates. > > My point is, for simple grid-tied system, there is no need for a "stop" > switch anywhere in the system. It doesn't matter whether the contactor coil > is driven by the premise AC or by a DC power supply connected to the premise > AC, when the the main is opened or the meter pulled, the array Dc will > become isolate. > > Therefore, there is no need for the "stop" switch and yet as I understand > it, such a switch is now required by the Code. The switch is not needed but > is required. > > Mark Frye > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From william at millersolar.com Mon Feb 2 20:07:58 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (william at millersolar.com) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2015 17:07:58 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions In-Reply-To: References: <54CC29A4.9010608@sindelarsolar.com> <5ADE3358-386A-41F5-9361-3420FB518E37@swnl.net> <54CF98F6.5000505@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <0d1c01d03f4d$dacc2cf0$906486d0$@millersolar.com> Wrenches: Is there any issue with residual voltage on the DC feeder due to capacitor charge in the inverters? William Miller From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Shafer Sent: Monday, February 02, 2015 7:43 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions Wrenches We have installed some of these rapid shut down units and they are always located close to the array and ours kill the DC instantly as long as the inverter was running when this accures did not test it with inverters already off. Jerry On Feb 2, 2015 5:34 AM, "Christopher Warfel" wrote: We have a interpretation problem among some people I work with with, and 690.12 Rapid Shut Down and the the 10 second time for reducing ac and dc conductors to 240ma, and 30V. The word "initiation" seems to indicate that all affected conductors need to be at these levels within 10 seconds of de-energizing either the ac or dc conductors. If so, then the disconnects need to be co-located to meet this requirement if this interpretation is correct. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Feb 2 21:13:30 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2015 16:13:30 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How to isolate the array DC In-Reply-To: <54cfee0c.ca66460a.4e24.1f5fSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <54CFEADC.9080608@berkeleysolar.com> <54cfee0c.ca66460a.4e24.1f5fSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Ours does something has to do it Jerry On Feb 2, 2015 11:37 AM, "Glenn Burt" wrote: > I only read where it is necessary to provide the operation of rapid > shutdown > and the system be labeled accordingly, not that it needs a dedicated switch > to perform the function. > > Glenn > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Mark Frye > Sent: Monday, February 02, 2015 4:24 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] How to isolate the array DC > > In order to clear up the conversation... > > I you put a relay in a box within 10 feet of the array on the roof, you can > use an relay with a DC rated Normally Open contact to open and > connect/isolate the array DC voltage. > > You can drive the coil of that relay with either AC or DC, but either way, > if you lose voltage to drive the coil, the contact opens and isolates. > > My point is, for simple grid-tied system, there is no need for a "stop" > switch anywhere in the system. It doesn't matter whether the contactor coil > is driven by the premise AC or by a DC power supply connected to the > premise > AC, when the the main is opened or the meter pulled, the array Dc will > become isolate. > > Therefore, there is no need for the "stop" switch and yet as I understand > it, such a switch is now required by the Code. The switch is not needed but > is required. > > Mark Frye > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From boB at midnitesolar.com Mon Feb 2 22:01:42 2015 From: boB at midnitesolar.com (boB at midnitesolar.com) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2015 19:01:42 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How to isolate the array DC In-Reply-To: <54CFEADC.9080608@berkeleysolar.com> References: <54CFEADC.9080608@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: <54D03A16.5090408@midnitesolar.com> The inverters' input capacitors may be charged and so that must also be isolated near the inverter. A grid operated contactor will not work for a battery-back up system. Also, 600V DC can weld contacts closed and if this happens and there is no feedback to show that the contacts definitely opened, this can ruin a firefighter's day. Otherwise, a system of contactors from AC grid could work in a grid-tie only system. The new UL rapid shutdown specifications are supposed to be released very soon now. Maybe within the month ? boB Gudgel K7IQ MidNite Solar On 2/2/2015 1:23 PM, Mark Frye wrote: > In order to clear up the conversation... > > I you put a relay in a box within 10 feet of the array on the roof, > you can use an relay with a DC rated Normally Open contact to open and > connect/isolate the array DC voltage. > > You can drive the coil of that relay with either AC or DC, but either > way, if you lose voltage to drive the coil, the contact opens and > isolates. > > My point is, for simple grid-tied system, there is no need for a > "stop" switch anywhere in the system. It doesn't matter whether the > contactor coil is driven by the premise AC or by a DC power supply > connected to the premise AC, when the the main is opened or the meter > pulled, the array Dc will become isolate. > > Therefore, there is no need for the "stop" switch and yet as I > understand it, such a switch is now required by the Code. The switch > is not needed but is required. > > Mark Frye > _______________________________________________ From david.brearley at solarprofessional.com Tue Feb 3 15:04:37 2015 From: david.brearley at solarprofessional.com (David Brearley) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2015 14:04:37 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5B121A60-7EE6-4B60-B706-087FBF3AEEAB@solarprofessional.com> Mark, Bill Brooks’ rapid shutdown article for SolarPro does a nice job walking through the individual subsections of 690.12. He also addresses initiation device (type and location), which is not covered in the NEC. Here is the relevant text: What about the rapid-shutdown initiator? NEC 690.12 does not specify where you should locate the initiating device or what type of device you must install. This lack of detail is intended to provide system integrators and AHJs with the flexibility to adapt rapid-shutdown solutions to the complexities of the built environment. While the best location for a rapid-shutdown device and the required label is typically at or near the service equipment, the fire service may have preplanned emergency response tactics for some large commercial or industrial buildings that favor a different location. One of the simplest ways to initiate rapid shutdown is to set it up to occur automatically upon loss of ac power. This is why NEC 2014 does not require a specific type of rapid-shutdown initiation device. If you install a roof-mounted residential microinverter system or a commercial PV system using roof-mounted string inverters located within 10 feet of the array, you do not need any special equipment to initiate rapid shutdown; you can accomplish this function simply by interrupting utility-supplied power to the inverters. Some companies have developed various rapid-shutdown switches, and claim that rapid shutdown requires these extra switches. However, you have to install an extra rapid-shutdown switch only when you need to turn the array off by some means other than loss of utility power, as with battery-backup systems or inverters equipped with a daytime backup-power outlet. NEC 690.12 does not specify how many buttons, switches or movements of the hand are allowed to complete rapid shutdown. Ideally, the process should only require one action. As written today, however, the language in 690.12 provides system integrators and AHJs with the flexibility to consider alternatives. Note that if the system design requires more than one action to initiate rapid shutdown, the 10-second time limit still applies. Therefore, where systems are deployed with more than one initiation device or switch, they should all be in close proximity so that emergency personnel can de-energize all of the PV system circuits on the building within 10 seconds. Further, labeling must clearly identify all of the initiation devices and all of the steps required to complete rapid shutdown. Here’s a link to the complete article: http://bit.ly/1xuDxx7 I hope this is of some assistance, David Brearley Senior Technical Editor, SolarPro magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional david.brearley at solarprofessional.com Direct: 541.261.6545 Follow us on Twitter: @SolarPro Check out this AMAZING music video tribute to SolarPro: http://bit.ly/1qfMCCh > On Feb 3, 2015, at 1:50 PM, re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org wrote: > > Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > re-wrenches-owner at lists.re-wrenches.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." > When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines from the quoted message. > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions (Mark Frye) > 2. Re: Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions > (Jerry Shafer) > 3. Re: Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions (Mark Frye) > 4. How to isolate the array DC (Mark Frye) > 5. Re: How to isolate the array DC (Glenn Burt) > 6. Re: Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions > (Christopher Warfel) > 7. Re: How to isolate the array DC (Mark Frye) > 8. Re: Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions > (william at millersolar.com ) > 9. Re: How to isolate the array DC (Jerry Shafer) > 10. Re: How to isolate the array DC (boB at midnitesolar.com ) > > From: Mark Frye > > To: glenn.burt at glbcc.com , RE-wrenches > > Date: February 2, 2015 at 3:06:39 PM CST > Reply-To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions > > > I really do wonder then... > > Right now, you go up to the burning house and pull the meter, bingo, no AC anywhere. So why do we need the "kill" switch next to the service (or where ever).... IF you drive the roof top contactor with 120vac or with 24 vdc made from a power supply powered by 120vac. Either way, pull the meter, no more AC and no more power to the contactor coil on the roof, so DC limited to the location of the contactor. > > Not really sure how the requirement for the stop switch got into the Code. > > Mark Frye -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Tue Feb 3 15:10:06 2015 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2015 12:10:06 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions In-Reply-To: <5B121A60-7EE6-4B60-B706-087FBF3AEEAB@solarprofessional.com> References: <5B121A60-7EE6-4B60-B706-087FBF3AEEAB@solarprofessional.com> Message-ID: <54D12B1E.6000402@berkeleysolar.com> Thanks David, This is very helpful. Mark Frye On 2/3/2015 12:04 PM, David Brearley wrote: > Mark, > > Bill Brooks’ rapid shutdown article for SolarPro does a nice job > walking through the individual subsections of 690.12. > > He also addresses initiation device (type and location), which is not > covered in the NEC. Here is the relevant text: > > *What about the rapid-shutdown initiator?*/ NEC/ 690.12 does not > specify where you should locate the initiating device or what type of > device you must install. This lack of detail is intended to provide > system integrators and AHJs with the flexibility to adapt > rapid-shutdown solutions to the complexities of the built environment. > While the best location for a rapid-shutdown device and the required > label is typically at or near the service equipment, the fire service > may have preplanned emergency response tactics for some large > commercial or industrial buildings that favor a different location. > > One of the simplest ways to initiate rapid shutdown is to set it up to > occur automatically upon loss of ac power. This is why /NEC 2014 /does > not require a specific type of rapid-shutdown initiation device. If > you install a roof-mounted residential microinverter system or a > commercial PV system using roof-mounted string inverters located > within 10 feet of the array, you do not need any special equipment to > initiate rapid shutdown; you can accomplish this function simply by > interrupting utility-supplied power to the inverters. Some companies > have developed various rapid-shutdown switches, and claim that rapid > shutdown requires these extra switches. However, you have to install > an extra rapid-shutdown switch only when you need to turn the array > off by some means other than loss of utility power, as with > battery-backup systems or inverters equipped with a daytime > backup-power outlet. > > /NEC /690.12 does not specify how many buttons, switches or movements > of the hand are allowed to complete rapid shutdown. Ideally, the > process should only require one action. As written today, however, the > language in 690.12 provides system integrators and AHJs with the > flexibility to consider alternatives. Note that if the system design > requires more than one action to initiate rapid shutdown, the > 10-second time limit still applies. Therefore, where systems are > deployed with more than one initiation device or switch, they should > all be in close proximity so that emergency personnel can de-energize > all of the PV system circuits on the building within 10 seconds. > Further, labeling must clearly identify all of the initiation devices > and all of the steps required to complete rapid shutdown. > > Here’s a link to the complete article: http://bit.ly/1xuDxx7 > > I hope this is of some assistance, > > David Brearley > Senior Technical Editor, /SolarPro/ magazine > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > david.brearley at solarprofessional.com > > Direct: 541.261.6545 > Follow us on Twitter: @SolarPro > > Check out this AMAZING music video tribute to SolarPro: > http://bit.ly/1qfMCCh > > >> On Feb 3, 2015, at 1:50 PM, re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org >> wrote: >> >> Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> re-wrenches-owner at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." >> When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the >> Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous >> lines from the quoted message. >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions (Mark Frye) >> 2. Re: Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions >> (Jerry Shafer) >> 3. Re: Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions (Mark Frye) >> 4. How to isolate the array DC (Mark Frye) >> 5. Re: How to isolate the array DC (Glenn Burt) >> 6. Re: Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions >> (Christopher Warfel) >> 7. Re: How to isolate the array DC (Mark Frye) >> 8. Re: Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule Questions >> (william at millersolar.com ) >> 9. Re: How to isolate the array DC (Jerry Shafer) >> 10. Re: How to isolate the array DC (boB at midnitesolar.com >> ) >> >> *From:*Mark Frye > > >> *To:*glenn.burt at glbcc.com , RE-wrenches >> > > >> *Date:*February 2, 2015 at 3:06:39 PM CST >> *Reply-To:*RE-wrenches > > >> *Subject:**Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shut Down and the 10 Second Rule >> Questions* >> >> >> I really do wonder then... >> >> Right now, you go up to the burning house and pull the meter, bingo, >> no AC anywhere. So why do we need the "kill" switch next to the >> service (or where ever).... IF you drive the roof top contactor with >> 120vac or with 24 vdc made from a power supply powered by 120vac. >> Either way, pull the meter, no more AC and no more power to the >> contactor coil on the roof, so DC limited to the location of the >> contactor. >> >> Not really sure how the requirement for the stop switch got into the >> Code. >> >> Mark Frye > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarphil at gmail.com Tue Feb 3 16:57:55 2015 From: solarphil at gmail.com (Phil Undercuffler) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2015 13:57:55 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Inverter Replacement Questions In-Reply-To: <5ADE3358-386A-41F5-9361-3420FB518E37@swnl.net> References: <54CC29A4.9010608@sindelarsolar.com> <5ADE3358-386A-41F5-9361-3420FB518E37@swnl.net> Message-ID: Wrenches, Allan’s key technical question is “when should I hesitate to replace a 120V legacy inverter with a 120/240V unit?” I’ve reviewed the various scenarios and options with our engineers and tech support team, and the one “watch out” issue that could potentially cause problems when replacing 120V legacy inverters with 120/240V replacements, is how the existing inverter bypass is configured. This is something that will need to be addressed whether the old system was 120V only or 120/240V with multiple 120V inverters. With a 120/240V inverter, the bypass must operate both L1 and L2 poles simultaneously. A common practice in the early days of solar was to use a double pole and single pole breaker combo with a special wiring arrangement and a mechanical interlock to bypass both input and output for each individual phase. As you note these were typically installed in a SqD QO403 3-pole load center, but I’ve also done a similar arrangement in other enclosures which could fit QOU breakers. This worked well enough back when the Trace 120V inverter was the defacto industry standard, as the two stacked inverters were really operating as two independent units, 180 degrees out of phase. However, this type of bypass cannot and should not be used with a 120/240V inverter. If you find this type of bypass in the old system, plan on replacing it with a modern equivalent as part of the upgrade. Other issues relating to upgrading the system would be constrained by site conditions and customer choice – ie, does the current generator have split-phase output capability, is there an L2 conductor already in the ground (or room in the conduit) for both the input from the generator and output to the house, does the customer want to run higher power loads in the future, perhaps run any water pumps at 240 instead of 120 and reduce the starting surges and potential flicker. I can’t think of a situation where a home wired for 120 can’t be fed with 120/240, although the reverse is not always the case. To answer the question regarding what is made where, the vast majority of our products and inverter lines are manufactured in Bellingham, Washington or in Suwanee Georgia (now Georgia might be a little foreign to some, but last I looked it’s still part of the US-of-A). Every Radian inverter, G series inverter and Extreme charge controller is made here in Washington State. We do have an international manufacturing policy where it makes strategic sense – solar is booming in the developing world, and some regions have local content provisions or taxation barriers that require in-country manufacturing so there are a couple inverter lines such as our VFX3024E for the Rest of World market which are made in India along with the FM60 and FM80 charge controllers. However, isn’t that what we want, US businesses succeeding in the global market and bringing that business home? We don’t have any manufacturing in China, nor is there any plan to do so – however, I’m going to take a moment on a soapbox here related to China and solar. China’s citizens look to the West and want access to a similar quality of life, and the more they burn dead dinos to get it the more we are all screwed. IMHO one of the best things that can happen for survivability on this planet is for China to strongly embrace renewables. Global solar market reports show massive deployment of PV throughout China and Asia at all levels, and I’m OK with that. Bring it on. Ray, I’d like to work with you on internet discounters, it’s not our intention to allow folks to undermine the market and devalue what reputable installers such as yourself bring to the table. However, I have to push back on bashing our technical support team. David, Katee, Jorge and the rest of the team work hard to provide trained and knowledgeable support for all of our customers, not just the ones that belong to some kind of loyalty club. The people answering the phones here have experience on the manufacturing line, service depot or education in Electrical Engineering, we’re proud to have a couple Veterans on the crew, and everyone goes through both our CTP and SEI training classes. If a couple of hiring notices in the past have caused you grief I apologize for that, but I challenge you to give our team another chance. Peace, Phil Philip Undercuffler Director, Strategic Platforms OutBack Power Technologies 17825 59th Ave NE, Suite B, Arlington, WA 98223 360.618.4306 office | 425.319.2821 mobile www.outbackpower.com On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 6:19 AM, Tump wrote: > Allan, are you planning on replacing the battery bank as well? If so SMA > is always first choice, despite their price point. As with ANY inverter > you will probably have an issue. As remote as site is, I always consider > what manufacture really does compensate you and how quickly do they get you > a replacement...... Hands down SMA. 120 SPh works with the old gen set, > works well with the Trace DC250, (and these expensive units don't adapt > as well as replacements in older home systems) NOT!, talks to Midnights > CCs any 220 load is readily installed w/ a t former. No longer are the > manus making boards readily available so no more field servicing. > If the battery bank is not to be replaced then the OBVFX product line, > these units do not need additional software/computer/internet service to > service unlike the some others.. .. "oh yeah you need to remove the 01-27 & > replace it with the right file 01-277" sound familiar to any one else? > TIME VERSES LABOR your last sentence would be a wake up call all the > $$$$$$$ you will need to upgrade this old system why would you use anything > other then the SMA SI if you too are going to replace the batteries. > I also will do a bench test so I am not surprised with ANY remote install. > Pain in the butt but certainly lot less problematic for you and your > reputation. > On Jan 30, 2015, at 8:02 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > > Esteemed Wrenches, > This question is prompted by a specific customer's situation, and I have a > question related to this, but I'm mainly using the situation to ask a > broader question. > > The specific situation: A customer's Xantrex SW+2524 has been acting > erratically. Fixing the inverter is not the issue; the client is quite > remote, and costs of diagnosis, parts and labor for these legacy units have > gone up enough that the customer has already decided to replace the unit > with a current product. From my perspective, the issues at hand revolve > around how to safely and cleanly install a modern inverter into a system > structured around old equipment. > > The specific question: Outback's FX series is the current product that > most readily replaces the SW/SW+ series: it's also 120V in/out, and it has > DC on the right and AC in/out on the left of a horizontally-laid out unit. > However, several times in recent years I have heard disparaging comments, > both here and in private conversations, about the purported drop in quality > of Outback's inverters and controllers since Alpha bought them, but > specifically because units, or parts of units, are now made in China, > rather than in the U.S. What I want to know, please, are answers to two+ > questions: 1) what's the real scoop? what is now made where? and 2) what > actual experiences, specifically product failures, have any of you had that > directly relate to changes directly attributable to overseas production? In > other words, how much of this is real and how much is rumor? > > The bigger question (and this issue will come up frequently in the coming > years): the SW+, like the SW before it, operates at 120V AC on both input > and output. More and more modern battery-based inverters input and output > split-phase 120/240V AC. When should I hesitate to replace a 120V legacy > inverter with a 120/240V unit? > > Among larger whole-house single inverters, Outback's FX and VFX units > operate at 120V, but these are older models. SMA's Sunny Island is 120V > only, but this is generally considered a weakness in typical SI > installations, . Magnum's MS4024 is available in either configuration. > Outback's Radian and Schneider's XW and Conext SW are only available as > 120-240 units. > > Here are the issues that I see: > Don't do it if a backup generator is 120V AC-only. It will work, but is > hard on the inverters, as all charging current will come in on one leg of > the inverter's AC input. Fortunately, relatively few generators are > 120V-only; pretty much just the smaller inverter-generators. Most cheaper > gennies are 240V, and either run through a step-down balancing transformer > (which would be taken out with the old 120V inverter) or run out of > balance. Many better portable generators have a 120/120-240 switch, making > it necessary to only replace a cable and plug to add a second hot conductor. > > Also, most older AC switchgear, such as QO403 inverter bypass switches, > are set up for single pole breakers, and would thus require replacement, > and reworking in general on the AC side to handle two hot input and output > conductors. > > But once the jumper between the two hot legs is removed in the AC main > panel, and two hots are connected, making the panel 120-240, what are the > concerns that I might not have anticipated? Are there any hidden dangers, > or situations where this change could cause problems, especially in AC > distribution? > > Thanks in advance. I hope that I don't regret posting this late on a > Friday... > Allan > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > *Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net* > Solarwinds Northernlights > * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* > * 207-832-7574 <207-832-7574> Cl. 610-517-8401 > <610-517-8401> * > *Blair "TUMP" May* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * * > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Tue Feb 3 19:40:14 2015 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2015 20:40:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Inverter Replacement Questions In-Reply-To: References: <54CC29A4.9010608@sindelarsolar.com> <5ADE3358-386A-41F5-9361-3420FB518E37@swnl.net> Message-ID: I can vouch for the Outback Radian tech support. I have installed a Radian GS8048A based system with MATE3 and OpticsRE in our own home to gain some familiarity with this system and it is very impressive. I have had some configuration issues and the technical support people (thanks Katee) have been very knowledgeable and ready to spend time on the more complex issues. As someone who does not live in the US, I take a little issue with this "Buy only American" attitude. You want us to buy your products, movies, music and games, but you won't consider anyone else's products or allow anyone else to make anything? America needs to move off that. We're going to buy the best products on the market regardless of country of manufacture, and you should be ready to do the same. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at harvesthesun.com Wed Feb 4 00:20:53 2015 From: eric at harvesthesun.com (SunHarvest) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2015 21:20:53 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Eaton replacement guts for Sylvania panel In-Reply-To: References: <54CC29A4.9010608@sindelarsolar.com> <5ADE3358-386A-41F5-9361-3420FB518E37@swnl.net> Message-ID: <69C78FEE-7739-4629-9C43-04B9BFDF9D1B@harvesthesun.com> I have a Sylvania/Zinsco changeout to complete and I am interested in using the Eaton "panel-interior swap kit". When I went in to my local electrical supply house the service tech said, "Huh?" Then he checked and saw only 1 package has been sold in the last 3 or so years. Apparently they're not used very frequently for Syl/Zin upgrades. Does anyone have any experience with these units? (They are a guts swap package where you can leave the Sylvania box in the wall, pull out the busbar, and replace it with an Eaton bus and breakers). Thanks. Eric Stikes Owner, SunHarvest Solar CA. Solar Contractor #968280 Founding Director, GoodSun Solar CA. Non-profit Corp. 001.530.798.3738 (cell) www.harvesthesun.com [message sent from cell phone] From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Wed Feb 4 15:14:51 2015 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2015 12:14:51 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Honda EU3000 voltage all over the place Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, Wondering if anyone else has seen this and what the fix is? I have two EU3000 generators from different customers both with identical issues. Voltage is from 85-140 VAC with a constant load, eco throttle disabled. These units are normally 125.0 even and very little deviation even with loads spiking. The customer had the unit into the local Honda shop, but they didn't have electronics experience, they said it runs a skillsaw fine so it's good. Ha ha. I'm suspecting there is an issue with the internal inverter in the EU. Have already eliminated loose wires or connections. Thanks, Kevin Pegg EA Energy Alternatives Ltd. 37471 Hwy 16 E Telkwa, BC V0J 2X2 250-846-9888 Http://www.EnergyAlternatives.ca From danbob88 at gmail.com Wed Feb 4 16:02:56 2015 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2015 14:02:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Honda EU3000 voltage all over the place In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Kevin; I have had issues with 2 different Honda 3000i units, up in your neck of the woods north of Smithers incidentally. Two different inverter/chargers simply would not accept the input, and changing charger settings as suggested by tech support didn't help. Considered the honda shop repair option, and then heard from someone else that they would just swap the 3000i internal inverter board for a hefty fee -- in addition to me bringing the generators out by helicopter -- so I just punted and am charging with 2000is that work fine with the same inverter/chargers. Go figure. I avoid these evil red cubes like the plague now....and still highly recommend all the other Hondas. Dan Fink Buckville Energy IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Wed, Feb 4, 2015 at 1:14 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > Wondering if anyone else has seen this and what the fix is? I have two > EU3000 generators from different customers both with identical issues. > Voltage is from 85-140 VAC with a constant load, eco throttle disabled. > These units are normally 125.0 even and very little deviation even with > loads spiking. The customer had the unit into the local Honda shop, but > they didn't have electronics experience, they said it runs a skillsaw fine > so it's good. Ha ha. > > I'm suspecting there is an issue with the internal inverter in the EU. > Have already eliminated loose wires or connections. > > Thanks, > > Kevin Pegg > EA Energy Alternatives Ltd. > 37471 Hwy 16 E > Telkwa, BC V0J 2X2 > 250-846-9888 > Http://www.EnergyAlternatives.ca > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Wed Feb 4 17:41:36 2015 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2015 14:41:36 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Honda EU3000 voltage all over the place Message-ID: I should clarify these were previously working fine, one unit has approx 500 hrs, other 2,000 hrs. I've never had any issues with the EU3000's on inverter charging and have probably 100 of them out there. Good to know they can be problematic. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of Dan Fink Sent: February 4, 2015 1:03 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Honda EU3000 voltage all over the place Hi Kevin; I have had issues with 2 different Honda 3000i units, up in your neck of the woods north of Smithers incidentally. Two different inverter/chargers simply would not accept the input, and changing charger settings as suggested by tech support didn't help. Considered the honda shop repair option, and then heard from someone else that they would just swap the 3000i internal inverter board for a hefty fee -- in addition to me bringing the generators out by helicopter -- so I just punted and am charging with 2000is that work fine with the same inverter/chargers. Go figure. I avoid these evil red cubes like the plague now....and still highly recommend all the other Hondas. Dan Fink Buckville Energy IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Wed, Feb 4, 2015 at 1:14 PM, Kevin Pegg < kpegg at energyalternatives.ca> wrote: Hi Wrenches, Wondering if anyone else has seen this and what the fix is? I have two EU3000 generators from different customers both with identical issues. Voltage is from 85-140 VAC with a constant load, eco throttle disabled. These units are normally 125.0 even and very little deviation even with loads spiking. The customer had the unit into the local Honda shop, but they didn't have electronics experience, they said it runs a skillsaw fine so it's good. Ha ha. I'm suspecting there is an issue with the internal inverter in the EU. Have already eliminated loose wires or connections. Thanks, Kevin Pegg EA Energy Alternatives Ltd. 37471 Hwy 16 E Telkwa, BC V0J 2X2 250-846-9888 Http://www.EnergyAlternatives.ca _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Wed Feb 4 23:01:41 2015 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2015 23:01:41 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Inverter Replacement Questions In-Reply-To: <54CC29A4.9010608@sindelarsolar.com> References: <54CC29A4.9010608@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Allan, I would replace with a VFX3524 and a Mate3 as long as the backup generator is big enough. FX's don't load share or gen support. I have had lousy luck with getting several magnums repaired. All have been switched to Outback. The Radian would be a nightmare to install compared to a single FX. I sell Radians primarily for grid tie backup systems and very high demand off grid. And to replace Magnums. I have had no trouble with Outback service and getting boards for on site repairs. Quality of boards OK. The Mate 3 is more intuitive than the Mate and has lots more information. Works fabulously with OpticsRE for monitoring. I have a remote mountaintop transmitter site that has been a nightmare for years and now we finally got all the pieces together at one time to make it work.. Good generator (EcoGen) new batteries, and 4000 watts of solar on top of pole racks (to self clear of snow) VFX3648 with IOTA 12v battery charger for the DC Loads, and the MATE3 hooked up to the internet and OpticsRE. All is now calm on the mountaintop. John Blittersdorf Central Vermont Solar & wind On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 8:02 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > Esteemed Wrenches, > This question is prompted by a specific customer's situation, and I have a > question related to this, but I'm mainly using the situation to ask a > broader question. > > The specific situation: A customer's Xantrex SW+2524 has been acting > erratically. Fixing the inverter is not the issue; the client is quite > remote, and costs of diagnosis, parts and labor for these legacy units have > gone up enough that the customer has already decided to replace the unit > with a current product. From my perspective, the issues at hand revolve > around how to safely and cleanly install a modern inverter into a system > structured around old equipment. > > The specific question: Outback's FX series is the current product that > most readily replaces the SW/SW+ series: it's also 120V in/out, and it has > DC on the right and AC in/out on the left of a horizontally-laid out unit. > However, several times in recent years I have heard disparaging comments, > both here and in private conversations, about the purported drop in quality > of Outback's inverters and controllers since Alpha bought them, but > specifically because units, or parts of units, are now made in China, > rather than in the U.S. What I want to know, please, are answers to two+ > questions: 1) what's the real scoop? what is now made where? and 2) what > actual experiences, specifically product failures, have any of you had that > directly relate to changes directly attributable to overseas production? In > other words, how much of this is real and how much is rumor? > > The bigger question (and this issue will come up frequently in the coming > years): the SW+, like the SW before it, operates at 120V AC on both input > and output. More and more modern battery-based inverters input and output > split-phase 120/240V AC. When should I hesitate to replace a 120V legacy > inverter with a 120/240V unit? > > Among larger whole-house single inverters, Outback's FX and VFX units > operate at 120V, but these are older models. SMA's Sunny Island is 120V > only, but this is generally considered a weakness in typical SI > installations, and these expensive units don't adapt as well as > replacements in older home systems. Magnum's MS4024 is available in either > configuration. Outback's Radian and Schneider's XW and Conext SW are only > available as 120-240 units. > > Here are the issues that I see: > Don't do it if a backup generator is 120V AC-only. It will work, but is > hard on the inverters, as all charging current will come in on one leg of > the inverter's AC input. Fortunately, relatively few generators are > 120V-only; pretty much just the smaller inverter-generators. Most cheaper > gennies are 240V, and either run through a step-down balancing transformer > (which would be taken out with the old 120V inverter) or run out of > balance. Many better portable generators have a 120/120-240 switch, making > it necessary to only replace a cable and plug to add a second hot conductor. > > Also, most older AC switchgear, such as QO403 inverter bypass switches, > are set up for single pole breakers, and would thus require replacement, > and reworking in general on the AC side to handle two hot input and output > conductors. > > But once the jumper between the two hot legs is removed in the AC main > panel, and two hots are connected, making the panel 120-240, what are the > concerns that I might not have anticipated? Are there any hidden dangers, > or situations where this change could cause problems, especially in AC > distribution? > > Thanks in advance. I hope that I don't regret posting this late on a > Friday... > Allan > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Thu Feb 5 20:08:40 2015 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 17:08:40 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How Is Rapid Shut-Down Not A Farse... Message-ID: <54D41418.1070401@berkeleysolar.com> ...without a mandatory "Stop" switch co-located with the service meter or main breaker? How many roof top systems have been installed to date? Many, many, many, many. OK ,now I am a first responder showing up at a home that is on fire. How do I know whether or not the DC has been installed such that it provided the protections afforded by 690.12? I don't. Because it is not require for systems conforming to 690.12 to look any different to me than those that do not. So does the "stop" switch become the new "fire fighters club" logo? If you have the switch the FD will save your home, if you don't they will let it burn down, even if you have a 690.12 compliant system that does not include an "initiator switch"? Mark Frye From daveclick at fsec.ucf.edu Thu Feb 5 22:32:13 2015 From: daveclick at fsec.ucf.edu (Dave Click) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 22:32:13 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How Is Rapid Shut-Down Not A Farse... In-Reply-To: <54D41418.1070401@berkeleysolar.com> References: <54D41418.1070401@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: <54D435BD.4050408@fsec.ucf.edu> Mark- 690.56(C) provides the placard you're looking for and 690.56(B) tells the first responder where that 690.12 switch is, right? For 2017 there are a couple of proposals out there. One is trying to better educate that first responder (quickly!) as to what hazards exist. Another is clarifying some of the language for 690.12 such that we continue to have [better] array-level shutdown. Another is changing 690.12 to [basically] module-level shutdown, which has been signed onto by the IAFF, insurance companies, and... some module-level electronics vendors. We've installed many, many rooftop systems but we're only about 0.1% done with them. Regardless of how 690.12 changes, I think that in the next few years we'll all be revisiting every system we've ever worked on to make sure there's enough labeling to inform firefighters about the hazards. I'm curious how we're going to do that so that a 2027 firefighter can quickly distinguish between 2014's Rapid Shutdown, 2017's Even Rapider Shutdown, 2020's BlockOutTheSun Shutdown, 2014's Rapid Shutdown That Actually Still Works, 2011's System That Will Only Shock You If You Cut Through a Module, and 2005's Never-Code-Compliant system that incorrectly has a "Rapid Shutdown" label on it because the homeowner noticed that their neighbor had one. Somehow we need to make sure firefighters know exactly what they're up against. Non-farcically, DKC On 2015/2/5 20:08, Mark Frye wrote: > ...without a mandatory "Stop" switch co-located with the service meter > or main breaker? > > How many roof top systems have been installed to date? Many, many, many, > many. > > OK ,now I am a first responder showing up at a home that is on fire. How > do I know whether or not the DC has been installed such that it provided > the protections afforded by 690.12? I don't. Because it is not require > for systems conforming to 690.12 to look any different to me than those > that do not. > > So does the "stop" switch become the new "fire fighters club" logo? If > you have the switch the FD will save your home, if you don't they will > let it burn down, even if you have a 690.12 compliant system that does > not include an "initiator switch"? > > Mark Frye > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Feb 5 23:37:57 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 18:37:57 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How Is Rapid Shut-Down Not A Farse... In-Reply-To: <54D435BD.4050408@fsec.ucf.edu> References: <54D41418.1070401@berkeleysolar.com> <54D435BD.4050408@fsec.ucf.edu> Message-ID: Mark and the wrenches group You do have a point, in the many years of my PV life, we have had three building fires not at all related to the PV, on the first, all of the insulation on the wires inside the metal conduit was gone, the at the time required AC disconnect was turned off, and after all was over we were called in to remove our system for the re-construction at which time I found a glove print on the conduit in the attic, it was wet, smoky and had live wires inside shorted and all that was required was a solid ground which it had and worked perfect. The second fire was the result of someone else and started under the home, right next to our EMT conduit, here they were able to turn off DC disconnect at the array which was on the ground away from the home and the conduit was properly grounded. again this protected the firefighters which I support. The third fire was to far back recall to much but again it was not PV related. I hesitate to say this but all the wigets and waldos will not protect against bad installs and some non NEC following related repairs, sure shutting down the array on the roof may help, but the first time there is a system out there that does not work some guy may just go and bypass it, hell its a cheap fix. now who thinks they are protected and they are not, bad deal. We all need to remember these systems requires power and we are in the industry of reducing power demands not increasing them. home owners may in time disconnect it them selves for this same reason. We need more KIS-S Jerry On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 5:32 PM, Dave Click wrote: > Mark- > > 690.56(C) provides the placard you're looking for and 690.56(B) tells the > first responder where that 690.12 switch is, right? > > For 2017 there are a couple of proposals out there. One is trying to > better educate that first responder (quickly!) as to what hazards exist. > Another is clarifying some of the language for 690.12 such that we continue > to have [better] array-level shutdown. Another is changing 690.12 to > [basically] module-level shutdown, which has been signed onto by the IAFF, > insurance companies, and... some module-level electronics vendors. > > We've installed many, many rooftop systems but we're only about 0.1% done > with them. Regardless of how 690.12 changes, I think that in the next few > years we'll all be revisiting every system we've ever worked on to make > sure there's enough labeling to inform firefighters about the hazards. I'm > curious how we're going to do that so that a 2027 firefighter can quickly > distinguish between 2014's Rapid Shutdown, 2017's Even Rapider Shutdown, > 2020's BlockOutTheSun Shutdown, 2014's Rapid Shutdown That Actually Still > Works, 2011's System That Will Only Shock You If You Cut Through a Module, > and 2005's Never-Code-Compliant system that incorrectly has a "Rapid > Shutdown" label on it because the homeowner noticed that their neighbor had > one. Somehow we need to make sure firefighters know exactly what they're up > against. > > Non-farcically, > DKC > > > > On 2015/2/5 20:08, Mark Frye wrote: > >> ...without a mandatory "Stop" switch co-located with the service meter >> or main breaker? >> >> How many roof top systems have been installed to date? Many, many, many, >> many. >> >> OK ,now I am a first responder showing up at a home that is on fire. How >> do I know whether or not the DC has been installed such that it provided >> the protections afforded by 690.12? I don't. Because it is not require >> for systems conforming to 690.12 to look any different to me than those >> that do not. >> >> So does the "stop" switch become the new "fire fighters club" logo? If >> you have the switch the FD will save your home, if you don't they will >> let it burn down, even if you have a 690.12 compliant system that does >> not include an "initiator switch"? >> >> Mark Frye >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Feb 6 01:22:21 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 23:22:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How Is Rapid Shut-Down Not A Farse... In-Reply-To: References: <54D41418.1070401@berkeleysolar.com> <54D435BD.4050408@fsec.ucf.edu> Message-ID: <54D45D9D.7090601@solarray.com> Solar is just one tiny little issue that fire fighters have to face. There's no placard for 5 gal propane bottles stored in the basement. I'm glad we're looking to make firefighters safer, but this has really gotten a bit out of control. Whatever is planned for 2017, I hope there are some sensible exceptions for lower voltage, lower current, off grid, or systems that cover only a small percentage of the roof, short conduit runs, etc. For many years, I have supported some sort of ability to de-energize PV closer to its source, but that was based on large, higher voltage systems with long virtually unprotected wire runs. We have decades of proven safety with small off grid systems. Batteries are the hazard there. Currently, the latest code is just driving more folks to do un-inspected, DIY installs, and that's not helping the firefighters or our industry one bit. What if instead of all these electronics on every house, we get the firefighters a special foam that they spray over the modules to smother the fire and block the sun. That would work regardless of the vintage or design of the system. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 2/5/2015 9:37 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Mark and the wrenches group > You do have a point, in the many years of my PV life, we have had > three building fires not at all related to the PV, on the first, all > of the insulation on the wires inside the metal conduit was gone, the > at the time required AC disconnect was turned off, and after all was > over we were called in to remove our system for the re-construction at > which time I found a glove print on the conduit in the attic, it was > wet, smoky and had live wires inside shorted and all that was required > was a solid ground which it had and worked perfect. > The second fire was the result of someone else and started under the > home, right next to our EMT conduit, here they were able to turn off > DC disconnect at the array which was on the ground away from the home > and the conduit was properly grounded. again this protected the > firefighters which I support. > The third fire was to far back recall to much but again it was not PV > related. > I hesitate to say this but all the wigets and waldos will not protect > against bad installs and some non NEC following related repairs, sure > shutting down the array on the roof may help, but the first time there > is a system out there that does not work some guy may just go and > bypass it, hell its a cheap fix. now who thinks they are protected and > they are not, bad deal. > We all need to remember these systems requires power and we are in the > industry of reducing power demands not increasing them. home owners > may in time disconnect it them selves for this same reason. > We need more KIS-S > Jerry > > On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 5:32 PM, Dave Click > wrote: > > Mark- > > 690.56(C) provides the placard you're looking for and 690.56(B) > tells the first responder where that 690.12 switch is, right? > > For 2017 there are a couple of proposals out there. One is trying > to better educate that first responder (quickly!) as to what > hazards exist. Another is clarifying some of the language for > 690.12 such that we continue to have [better] array-level > shutdown. Another is changing 690.12 to [basically] module-level > shutdown, which has been signed onto by the IAFF, insurance > companies, and... some module-level electronics vendors. > > We've installed many, many rooftop systems but we're only about > 0.1% done with them. Regardless of how 690.12 changes, I think > that in the next few years we'll all be revisiting every system > we've ever worked on to make sure there's enough labeling to > inform firefighters about the hazards. I'm curious how we're going > to do that so that a 2027 firefighter can quickly distinguish > between 2014's Rapid Shutdown, 2017's Even Rapider Shutdown, > 2020's BlockOutTheSun Shutdown, 2014's Rapid Shutdown That > Actually Still Works, 2011's System That Will Only Shock You If > You Cut Through a Module, and 2005's Never-Code-Compliant system > that incorrectly has a "Rapid Shutdown" label on it because the > homeowner noticed that their neighbor had one. Somehow we need to > make sure firefighters know exactly what they're up against. > > Non-farcically, > DKC > > > > On 2015/2/5 20:08, Mark Frye wrote: > > ...without a mandatory "Stop" switch co-located with the > service meter > or main breaker? > > How many roof top systems have been installed to date? Many, > many, many, > many. > > OK ,now I am a first responder showing up at a home that is on > fire. How > do I know whether or not the DC has been installed such that > it provided > the protections afforded by 690.12? I don't. Because it is not > require > for systems conforming to 690.12 to look any different to me > than those > that do not. > > So does the "stop" switch become the new "fire fighters club" > logo? If > you have the switch the FD will save your home, if you don't > they will > let it burn down, even if you have a 690.12 compliant system > that does > not include an "initiator switch"? > > Mark Frye > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From boB at midnitesolar.com Fri Feb 6 01:29:58 2015 From: boB at midnitesolar.com (boB at midnitesolar.com) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 22:29:58 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How Is Rapid Shut-Down Not A Farse... In-Reply-To: References: <54D41418.1070401@berkeleysolar.com> <54D435BD.4050408@fsec.ucf.edu> Message-ID: <54D45F66.5020309@midnitesolar.com> >>>but the first time there is a system out there that does not work some guy may just go and bypass it, hell its a cheap fix. now who thinks they are protected and they are not, bad deal.<<< Sounds like a good reason for the system to have proper feedback to let the firefighters know that the PV really was disconnected. boB On 2/5/2015 8:37 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Mark and the wrenches group > You do have a point, in the many years of my PV life, we have had > three building fires not at all related to the PV, on the first, all > of the insulation on the wires inside the metal conduit was gone, the > at the time required AC disconnect was turned off, and after all was > over we were called in to remove our system for the re-construction at > which time I found a glove print on the conduit in the attic, it was > wet, smoky and had live wires inside shorted and all that was required > was a solid ground which it had and worked perfect. > The second fire was the result of someone else and started under the > home, right next to our EMT conduit, here they were able to turn off > DC disconnect at the array which was on the ground away from the home > and the conduit was properly grounded. again this protected the > firefighters which I support. > The third fire was to far back recall to much but again it was not PV > related. > I hesitate to say this but all the wigets and waldos will not protect > against bad installs and some non NEC following related repairs, sure > shutting down the array on the roof may help, but the first time there > is a system out there that does not work some guy may just go and > bypass it, hell its a cheap fix. now who thinks they are protected and > they are not, bad deal. > We all need to remember these systems requires power and we are in the > industry of reducing power demands not increasing them. home owners > may in time disconnect it them selves for this same reason. > We need more KIS-S > Jerry > > On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 5:32 PM, Dave Click > wrote: > > Mark- > > 690.56(C) provides the placard you're looking for and 690.56(B) > tells the first responder where that 690.12 switch is, right? > > For 2017 there are a couple of proposals out there. One is trying > to better educate that first responder (quickly!) as to what > hazards exist. Another is clarifying some of the language for > 690.12 such that we continue to have [better] array-level > shutdown. Another is changing 690.12 to [basically] module-level > shutdown, which has been signed onto by the IAFF, insurance > companies, and... some module-level electronics vendors. > > We've installed many, many rooftop systems but we're only about > 0.1% done with them. Regardless of how 690.12 changes, I think > that in the next few years we'll all be revisiting every system > we've ever worked on to make sure there's enough labeling to > inform firefighters about the hazards. I'm curious how we're going > to do that so that a 2027 firefighter can quickly distinguish > between 2014's Rapid Shutdown, 2017's Even Rapider Shutdown, > 2020's BlockOutTheSun Shutdown, 2014's Rapid Shutdown That > Actually Still Works, 2011's System That Will Only Shock You If > You Cut Through a Module, and 2005's Never-Code-Compliant system > that incorrectly has a "Rapid Shutdown" label on it because the > homeowner noticed that their neighbor had one. Somehow we need to > make sure firefighters know exactly what they're up against. > > Non-farcically, > DKC > > > > On 2015/2/5 20:08, Mark Frye wrote: > > ...without a mandatory "Stop" switch co-located with the > service meter > or main breaker? > > How many roof top systems have been installed to date? Many, > many, many, > many. > > OK ,now I am a first responder showing up at a home that is on > fire. How > do I know whether or not the DC has been installed such that > it provided > the protections afforded by 690.12? I don't. Because it is not > require > for systems conforming to 690.12 to look any different to me > than those > that do not. > > So does the "stop" switch become the new "fire fighters club" > logo? If > you have the switch the FD will save your home, if you don't > they will > let it burn down, even if you have a 690.12 compliant system > that does > not include an "initiator switch"? > > Mark Frye > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Feb 6 08:55:39 2015 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 06:55:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Whisper Controller Conversion Message-ID: Hello wrenches, Yesterday, we converted a Whisper 200 over from 24V to 48V operation. We lowered the turbine and rewired it. We set the Dip switches in the controller (1 & 2 to off) and rewired the dump load as specified in the manual. For some reason, when we put the 55V battery voltage to the controller, it smoked it. We triple checked all of our connections and settings. Everything looks like the manual specifies. Luckily for us, we happen to have a spare Whisper controller that I can give this guy. If it was a fluke and the controller just had a bad component, fine, no problem. However, I'd like to know if I'm missing something about the 48VDC conversion before we smoke another one. Are there known issues, operating this controller at 48V? Any insights are appreciated. Thanks, in advance. -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Fri Feb 6 11:02:29 2015 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2015 08:02:29 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How Is Rapid Shut-Down Not A Farse... In-Reply-To: <54D45F66.5020309@midnitesolar.com> References: <54D41418.1070401@berkeleysolar.com> <54D435BD.4050408@fsec.ucf.edu> <54D45F66.5020309@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: <54D4E595.2090308@berkeleysolar.com> Humm...an LED and 9V battery would serve the would-be bypasser well... ...but of course once we implement yearly inspection and certification of the PV system rapid shut down by the local FD, that will deter such tampering.... Is there an analog to our concerns vis-a-vis 690.12 in Europe or Japan? On 2/5/2015 10:29 PM, boB at midnitesolar.com wrote: > > >>>but the first time there is a system out there that does not work > some guy may just go and bypass it, > hell its a cheap fix. now who thinks they are protected and they are > not, bad deal.<<< > > Sounds like a good reason for the system to have proper feedback to > let the firefighters know that the PV really was disconnected. > > boB > > > On 2/5/2015 8:37 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >> Mark and the wrenches group >> You do have a point, in the many years of my PV life, we have had >> three building fires not at all related to the PV, on the first, all >> of the insulation on the wires inside the metal conduit was gone, the >> at the time required AC disconnect was turned off, and after all was >> over we were called in to remove our system for the re-construction >> at which time I found a glove print on the conduit in the attic, it >> was wet, smoky and had live wires inside shorted and all that was >> required was a solid ground which it had and worked perfect. >> The second fire was the result of someone else and started under the >> home, right next to our EMT conduit, here they were able to turn off >> DC disconnect at the array which was on the ground away from the home >> and the conduit was properly grounded. again this protected the >> firefighters which I support. >> The third fire was to far back recall to much but again it was not PV >> related. >> I hesitate to say this but all the wigets and waldos will not protect >> against bad installs and some non NEC following related repairs, sure >> shutting down the array on the roof may help, but the first time >> there is a system out there that does not work some guy may just go >> and bypass it, hell its a cheap fix. now who thinks they are >> protected and they are not, bad deal. >> We all need to remember these systems requires power and we are in >> the industry of reducing power demands not increasing them. home >> owners may in time disconnect it them selves for this same reason. >> We need more KIS-S >> Jerry >> >> On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 5:32 PM, Dave Click > > wrote: >> >> Mark- >> >> 690.56(C) provides the placard you're looking for and 690.56(B) >> tells the first responder where that 690.12 switch is, right? >> >> For 2017 there are a couple of proposals out there. One is trying >> to better educate that first responder (quickly!) as to what >> hazards exist. Another is clarifying some of the language for >> 690.12 such that we continue to have [better] array-level >> shutdown. Another is changing 690.12 to [basically] module-level >> shutdown, which has been signed onto by the IAFF, insurance >> companies, and... some module-level electronics vendors. >> >> We've installed many, many rooftop systems but we're only about >> 0.1% done with them. Regardless of how 690.12 changes, I think >> that in the next few years we'll all be revisiting every system >> we've ever worked on to make sure there's enough labeling to >> inform firefighters about the hazards. I'm curious how we're >> going to do that so that a 2027 firefighter can quickly >> distinguish between 2014's Rapid Shutdown, 2017's Even Rapider >> Shutdown, 2020's BlockOutTheSun Shutdown, 2014's Rapid Shutdown >> That Actually Still Works, 2011's System That Will Only Shock You >> If You Cut Through a Module, and 2005's Never-Code-Compliant >> system that incorrectly has a "Rapid Shutdown" label on it >> because the homeowner noticed that their neighbor had one. >> Somehow we need to make sure firefighters know exactly what >> they're up against. >> >> Non-farcically, >> DKC >> >> >> >> On 2015/2/5 20:08, Mark Frye wrote: >> >> ...without a mandatory "Stop" switch co-located with the >> service meter >> or main breaker? >> >> How many roof top systems have been installed to date? Many, >> many, many, >> many. >> >> OK ,now I am a first responder showing up at a home that is >> on fire. How >> do I know whether or not the DC has been installed such that >> it provided >> the protections afforded by 690.12? I don't. Because it is >> not require >> for systems conforming to 690.12 to look any different to me >> than those >> that do not. >> >> So does the "stop" switch become the new "fire fighters club" >> logo? If >> you have the switch the FD will save your home, if you don't >> they will >> let it burn down, even if you have a 690.12 compliant system >> that does >> not include an "initiator switch"? >> >> Mark Frye >> >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Richard.L.Ratico at VALLEY.NET Fri Feb 6 10:07:08 2015 From: Richard.L.Ratico at VALLEY.NET (Richard L Ratico) Date: 06 Feb 2015 10:07:08 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Whisper Controller Conversion Message-ID: <176921131@retriever.VALLEY.NET> --- You wrote: Not to hijack the thread, but is there a company that anyone could recommend to repair these controllers, or a source of wiring diagrams for them? Dick Ratico Solarwind Elecric Hello wrenches, Yesterday, we converted a Whisper 200 over from 24V to 48V operation. We lowered the turbine and rewired it. We set the Dip switches in the controller (1 & 2 to off) and rewired the dump load as specified in the manual. For some reason, when we put the 55V battery voltage to the controller, it smoked it. We triple checked all of our connections and settings. Everything looks like the manual specifies. Luckily for us, we happen to have a spare Whisper controller that I can give this guy. If it was a fluke and the controller just had a bad component, fine, no problem. However, I'd like to know if I'm missing something about the 48VDC conversion before we smoke another one. Are there known issues, operating this controller at 48V? Any insights are appreciated. Thanks, in advance. Mac Lewis --- end of quote --- From allan at sindelarsolar.com Fri Feb 6 11:28:01 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2015 09:28:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Whisper Controller Conversion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54D4EB91.6030300@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri Feb 6 10:53:00 2015 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 07:53:00 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How Is Rapid Shut-Down Not A Farse... In-Reply-To: <54D435BD.4050408@fsec.ucf.edu> References: <54D41418.1070401@berkeleysolar.com> <54D435BD.4050408@fsec.ucf.edu> Message-ID: <92a6022132ff7a139bc1ae2a2bb5d5c8.squirrel@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Is the number of firefighters hurt by PV systems still zero? If we want to make a safer world, this is not the best place to be putting our life energy. > Mark- > > 690.56(C) provides the placard you're looking for and 690.56(B) tells > the first responder where that 690.12 switch is, right? > > For 2017 there are a couple of proposals out there. One is trying to > better educate that first responder (quickly!) as to what hazards exist. > Another is clarifying some of the language for 690.12 such that we > continue to have [better] array-level shutdown. Another is changing > 690.12 to [basically] module-level shutdown, which has been signed onto > by the IAFF, insurance companies, and... some module-level electronics > vendors. > > We've installed many, many rooftop systems but we're only about 0.1% > done with them. Regardless of how 690.12 changes, I think that in the > next few years we'll all be revisiting every system we've ever worked on > to make sure there's enough labeling to inform firefighters about the > hazards. I'm curious how we're going to do that so that a 2027 > firefighter can quickly distinguish between 2014's Rapid Shutdown, > 2017's Even Rapider Shutdown, 2020's BlockOutTheSun Shutdown, 2014's > Rapid Shutdown That Actually Still Works, 2011's System That Will Only > Shock You If You Cut Through a Module, and 2005's Never-Code-Compliant > system that incorrectly has a "Rapid Shutdown" label on it because the > homeowner noticed that their neighbor had one. Somehow we need to make > sure firefighters know exactly what they're up against. > > Non-farcically, > DKC > > > On 2015/2/5 20:08, Mark Frye wrote: >> ...without a mandatory "Stop" switch co-located with the service meter >> or main breaker? >> >> How many roof top systems have been installed to date? Many, many, many, >> many. >> >> OK ,now I am a first responder showing up at a home that is on fire. How >> do I know whether or not the DC has been installed such that it provided >> the protections afforded by 690.12? I don't. Because it is not require >> for systems conforming to 690.12 to look any different to me than those >> that do not. >> >> So does the "stop" switch become the new "fire fighters club" logo? If >> you have the switch the FD will save your home, if you don't they will >> let it burn down, even if you have a 690.12 compliant system that does >> not include an "initiator switch"? >> >> Mark Frye >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From allan at sindelarsolar.com Fri Feb 6 11:39:25 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2015 09:39:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Whisper Controller Conversion In-Reply-To: <54D4EB91.6030300@sindelarsolar.com> References: <54D4EB91.6030300@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <54D4EE3D.8090304@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Fri Feb 6 12:56:39 2015 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2015 09:56:39 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Gen4 - How Is It Doing? Message-ID: <54D50057.6090406@berkeleysolar.com> Folks, How is the Gen4 Enphase (M250) holding up in the field? Any marked improvement over M215 in terms of failures? Mark Frye From windsine at gmail.com Fri Feb 6 14:33:52 2015 From: windsine at gmail.com (Windsine Inc.) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 13:33:52 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Whisper Controller Conversion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If the stator is now configured for 48v nominal, why not run it through a conventional packaged 3 phase rectifier directly stalled to the 48v battery bank through a fuse of course (that's sized to never blow under turbine current). You can also add a shorting stop switch prior to the rectifier - not after it. That's if you can't get your controller repaired. You may lose a little operating efficiency but it works fine. You could also run it through an mppt controller to get your efficiency back but you will also have to add the rectifier and stop switch. RoyR On Feb 6, 2015 7:55 AM, "Mac Lewis" wrote: > Hello wrenches, > > Yesterday, we converted a Whisper 200 over from 24V to 48V operation. We > lowered the turbine and rewired it. We set the Dip switches in the > controller (1 & 2 to off) and rewired the dump load as specified in the > manual. For some reason, when we put the 55V battery voltage to the > controller, it smoked it. We triple checked all of our connections and > settings. Everything looks like the manual specifies. > > Luckily for us, we happen to have a spare Whisper controller that I can > give this guy. If it was a fluke and the controller just had a bad > component, fine, no problem. However, I'd like to know if I'm missing > something about the 48VDC conversion before we smoke another one. Are > there known issues, operating this controller at 48V? > > Any insights are appreciated. Thanks, in advance. > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Fri Feb 6 18:35:11 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2015 16:35:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cable crimper question Message-ID: <54D54FAF.50604@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at solarnexusinternational.com Fri Feb 6 19:20:21 2015 From: eric at solarnexusinternational.com (Eric Youngren) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 16:20:21 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cable crimper question In-Reply-To: <54D54FAF.50604@sindelarsolar.com> References: <54D54FAF.50604@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Hi Allan, All the solar contractors I've worked with in Africa use these Chinese hydraulic crimpers. Yes the dies are metric and the ones I have used did not have AWG equivalents marked on them, but I've always been able to find the right die size to make good crimps on both heavy wall and thin wall lugs. Each crimp takes 20-40 seconds longer than my long-handled high leverage HexCrimp tool from QuickCable, because you have to pump the hydraulic cylinder a bunch of times, and then releasing the pressure to open it back up takes more time. Changing dies between different sizes is much slower than rotating the HexCrimp die heads. For an occasional crimp in the field the slowness is not a problem but if you are fabricating lots of short cables for series/parallel interconnects I think the slowness would get frustrating, especially if you are used to a high-leverage, one squeeze type of crimper. But they do work and are certainly affordable! As with all cheap Chinese stuff I worry about the quality of the steel and other materials, and the possibility of it just breaking apart one day, but from my experience these seem to be appropriately heavy-duty and a good value. All the best, Eric *Eric YoungrenSolar Nexus International* PO Box 894 1016 Discovery Way Eastsound, WA 98245 USA (360) 376-6842 www.solarnexusinternational.com w ww.picopowerboss.com Skype name: ericyoungren On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 3:35 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > Wrenches, > Has anyone used the cheap Chinese hydraulic cable crimpers? Any field > reports? Dies appear to be metric; do they correspond to AWG? All of these > kits run about $45, which is absurd, as a Klein manual crimper for up to > 4/0 runs $200+, and that's what I expected to buy before I came across lots > of these on Ebay. > > An example: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/16-Ton-Hydraulic-Wire-Crimper-Crimping-Tool-11-Dies-Battery-Cable-Lug-Terminal-/310896486645?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4862dfe8f5 > > I'm hesitant without good reviews, but it's tempting. No lectures, please. > > Thank you, > Allan > > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Fri Feb 6 19:31:41 2015 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 17:31:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Whisper Controller Conversion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, the "EZ-Fire" controller. I agree with Roy; there's nothing magic about the turbine alternator itself, and it's easy to build your own stop switch and rectifier/heat sink assembly. And maybe then run it thru a Midnite Classic for MPPT. I've never done it with a 200, but works fine on 100s. Dan Fink Buckville Energy IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 12:33 PM, Windsine Inc. wrote: > If the stator is now configured for 48v nominal, why not run it through a > conventional packaged 3 phase rectifier directly stalled to the 48v battery > bank through a fuse of course (that's sized to never blow under turbine > current). You can also add a shorting stop switch prior to the rectifier - > not after it. That's if you can't get your controller repaired. > > You may lose a little operating efficiency but it works fine. > You could also run it through an mppt controller to get your efficiency > back but you will also have to add the rectifier and stop switch. > > RoyR > On Feb 6, 2015 7:55 AM, "Mac Lewis" wrote: > >> Hello wrenches, >> >> Yesterday, we converted a Whisper 200 over from 24V to 48V operation. We >> lowered the turbine and rewired it. We set the Dip switches in the >> controller (1 & 2 to off) and rewired the dump load as specified in the >> manual. For some reason, when we put the 55V battery voltage to the >> controller, it smoked it. We triple checked all of our connections and >> settings. Everything looks like the manual specifies. >> >> Luckily for us, we happen to have a spare Whisper controller that I can >> give this guy. If it was a fluke and the controller just had a bad >> component, fine, no problem. However, I'd like to know if I'm missing >> something about the 48VDC conversion before we smoke another one. Are >> there known issues, operating this controller at 48V? >> >> Any insights are appreciated. Thanks, in advance. >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Feb 6 19:53:55 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2015 17:53:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cable crimper question In-Reply-To: <54D54FAF.50604@sindelarsolar.com> References: <54D54FAF.50604@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <54D56223.4060708@solarray.com> I haven't used that type, because that type of die doesn't work well with the thin battery lugs we use for off grid battery cables. Seems better for the heavy cast lugs. I currently have a type that makes a crimp similar to the hammer type crimpers: an indentation on one side and V on the other. I've been quite happy with it, but I don't use their settings, I usually crimp it tighter by a size or two till I'm happy with the compression. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Burndy-MY29-3-Dieless-Crimping-Tool-Aluminum-And-Copper-Cable-/111578027435 Nick Stallard had the Greenlee version and it also worked very well. I've cut apart quite a few lugs on my band saw, and the hex (die) crimps were not as good. The V and indent type looked like fused metal, the strands were squished so tight there was no air space between them. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 2/6/2015 4:35 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > Wrenches, > Has anyone used the cheap Chinese hydraulic cable crimpers? Any field > reports? Dies appear to be metric; do they correspond to AWG? All of > these kits run about $45, which is absurd, as a Klein manual crimper > for up to 4/0 runs $200+, and that's what I expected to buy before I > came across lots of these on Ebay. > > An example: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/16-Ton-Hydraulic-Wire-Crimper-Crimping-Tool-11-Dies-Battery-Cable-Lug-Terminal-/310896486645?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4862dfe8f5 > > I'm hesitant without good reviews, but it's tempting. No lectures, please. > > Thank you, > Allan > > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > ** > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Fri Feb 6 21:56:26 2015 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 18:56:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Whisper Controller Conversion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1423277786.9523381@webmail.finestplanet.com> my old whisper controller has 3, full wave bridge rectifiers (with capacitors in parallel) connected to the wild, 3 phase ac input... and a 4 way light switch used to short out the three wild ac legs for the brake. should be easy to build one. todd On Friday, February 6, 2015 4:31pm, "Dan Fink" said: Yes, the "EZ-Fire" controller. I agree with Roy; there's nothing magic about the turbine alternator itself, and it's easy to build your own stop switch and rectifier/heat sink assembly. And maybe then run it thru a Midnite Classic for MPPT. I've never done it with a 200, but works fine on 100s. Dan Fink Buckville Energy IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reellison at gmail.com Sat Feb 7 08:35:54 2015 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2015 08:35:54 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cable crimper question In-Reply-To: <54D54FAF.50604@sindelarsolar.com> References: <54D54FAF.50604@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: If there actually is a small hydraulic pump connected between those handles? I have had previous experience a lot Chinese hydraulics, engines, generators Chinese hydraulics and engines have bad habits of seeping oil if not downright leaking! Their certainly looks like there's no room there for a reasonably sized reservoir to store the hydraulic oil. If it's being sold for 50 bucks it's probably coming out of China for 10 ! Then you still have to consider the fact that if, unless it has changed I believe the crimpers still need to be UL listed No way they're going to spend the money for that! Interesting toy to play with but I don't think it would hold up, do good cramps or be legal Bob Ellison > On Feb 6, 2015, at 6:35 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > > Wrenches, > Has anyone used the cheap Chinese hydraulic cable crimpers? Any field reports? Dies appear to be metric; do they correspond to AWG? All of these kits run about $45, which is absurd, as a Klein manual crimper for up to 4/0 runs $200+, and that's what I expected to buy before I came across lots of these on Ebay. > > An example: http://www.ebay.com/itm/16-Ton-Hydraulic-Wire-Crimper-Crimping-Tool-11-Dies-Battery-Cable-Lug-Terminal-/310896486645?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4862dfe8f5 > > I'm hesitant without good reviews, but it's tempting. No lectures, please. > > Thank you, > Allan > > -- > Allan Sindelar > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > 505 780-2738 cell > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Sat Feb 7 10:28:00 2015 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2015 10:28:00 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP consultant fee Message-ID: <015001d042ea$aa1fb6d0$fe5f2470$@solarandwindfx.com> Good Day All, While I'm unsure how all states handle NABCEP, here in New York in order to obtain state incentives you or someone within your company must be a NABCEP PV professional. With the growth that our industry is experiencing there are more and more non-PV companies jumping into the scene. These companies are seeking out NABCEP individuals to add to their staffs without actually adding them to the payroll. My question to my NABCEP peers is what are you charging per project or how are you getting financially reimburse for your time/skills? Per watt, per project? If you're uncomfortable making this public feel free to share your thoughts with me off list via my email or give me a call. Sincerely, Christopher Schaefer Chris Schaefer's SolarWindFX Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 12101 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.png Type: image/png Size: 44233 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image012.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2759 bytes Desc: not available URL: From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Sat Feb 7 10:29:59 2015 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2015 10:29:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cable crimper question In-Reply-To: References: <54D54FAF.50604@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: I'm with Ray on this, Allan. 27 years of using Burndy and Greenlee crimpers with tinned copper lugs on battery and inverter cables without a failure says a lot. Like Ray, we do set it a little "tighter" than the scale indicates. Daryl > If there actually is a small hydraulic pump connected between those > handles? > I have had previous experience a lot Chinese hydraulics, engines, > generators > > Chinese hydraulics and engines have bad habits of seeping oil if not > downright leaking! > Their certainly looks like there's no room there for a reasonably sized > reservoir to store the hydraulic oil. > > If it's being sold for 50 bucks it's probably coming out of China for 10 ! > > Then you still have to consider the fact that if, unless it has changed I > believe the crimpers still need to be UL listed > > No way they're going to spend the money for that! > > Interesting toy to play with but I don't think it would hold up, do good > cramps or be legal > > > Bob Ellison > >> On Feb 6, 2015, at 6:35 PM, Allan Sindelar >> wrote: >> >> Wrenches, >> Has anyone used the cheap Chinese hydraulic cable crimpers? Any field >> reports? Dies appear to be metric; do they correspond to AWG? All of >> these kits run about $45, which is absurd, as a Klein manual crimper for >> up to 4/0 runs $200+, and that's what I expected to buy before I came >> across lots of these on Ebay. >> >> An example: >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/16-Ton-Hydraulic-Wire-Crimper-Crimping-Tool-11-Dies-Battery-Cable-Lug-Terminal-/310896486645?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4862dfe8f5 >> >> I'm hesitant without good reviews, but it's tempting. No lectures, >> please. >> >> Thank you, >> Allan >> >> -- >> Allan Sindelar >> allan at sindelarsolar.com >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional >> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >> 505 780-2738 cell >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Sat Feb 7 12:18:20 2015 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2015 13:18:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cable crimper question In-Reply-To: References: <54D54FAF.50604@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: I have a couple of those cheap chinese metric hydraulic crimpers. They crimp fine, there is a conversion table in the box for AWG sizes. It's a lot cheaper to give each crew a $40 crimper than sharing a $2,000 Greenlee, and when the seals go you buy another one. On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 11:29 AM, wrote: > I'm with Ray on this, Allan. 27 years of using Burndy and Greenlee > crimpers with tinned copper lugs on battery and inverter cables without a > failure says a lot. Like Ray, we do set it a little "tighter" than the > scale indicates. > > Daryl > > > > If there actually is a small hydraulic pump connected between those > > handles? > > I have had previous experience a lot Chinese hydraulics, engines, > > generators > > > > Chinese hydraulics and engines have bad habits of seeping oil if not > > downright leaking! > > Their certainly looks like there's no room there for a reasonably sized > > reservoir to store the hydraulic oil. > > > > If it's being sold for 50 bucks it's probably coming out of China for 10 > ! > > > > Then you still have to consider the fact that if, unless it has changed I > > believe the crimpers still need to be UL listed > > > > No way they're going to spend the money for that! > > > > Interesting toy to play with but I don't think it would hold up, do good > > cramps or be legal > > > > > > Bob Ellison > > > >> On Feb 6, 2015, at 6:35 PM, Allan Sindelar > >> wrote: > >> > >> Wrenches, > >> Has anyone used the cheap Chinese hydraulic cable crimpers? Any field > >> reports? Dies appear to be metric; do they correspond to AWG? All of > >> these kits run about $45, which is absurd, as a Klein manual crimper for > >> up to 4/0 runs $200+, and that's what I expected to buy before I came > >> across lots of these on Ebay. > >> > >> An example: > >> > http://www.ebay.com/itm/16-Ton-Hydraulic-Wire-Crimper-Crimping-Tool-11-Dies-Battery-Cable-Lug-Terminal-/310896486645?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4862dfe8f5 > >> > >> I'm hesitant without good reviews, but it's tempting. No lectures, > >> please. > >> > >> Thank you, > >> Allan > >> > >> -- > >> Allan Sindelar > >> allan at sindelarsolar.com > >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > >> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > >> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > >> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > >> 505 780-2738 cell > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List-Archive: > >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >> > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sat Feb 7 14:40:26 2015 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2015 12:40:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cable crimper question In-Reply-To: References: <54D54FAF.50604@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: I have the $50 harbor freight one, and it works fine once you do the metric conversion and then ignore the die size and do your own testing. For the big stuff of #2 and above, I use my hammer crimper. But this cheap tool will certainly crimp the s**t out of smaller sizes. Lots of us older folk have wrist issues, and applying enough pressure with the usual Klein tool is painful, and you never know how much pressure is really applied. All I can say is that my wrists are happy.$50 plus $50 = no pain. Dan Fink Buckville Energy IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 10:18 AM, Chris Mason wrote: > I have a couple of those cheap chinese metric hydraulic crimpers. They > crimp fine, there is a conversion table in the box for AWG sizes. It's a > lot cheaper to give each crew a $40 crimper than sharing a $2,000 Greenlee, > and when the seals go you buy another one. > > On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 11:29 AM, wrote: > >> I'm with Ray on this, Allan. 27 years of using Burndy and Greenlee >> crimpers with tinned copper lugs on battery and inverter cables without a >> failure says a lot. Like Ray, we do set it a little "tighter" than the >> scale indicates. >> >> Daryl >> >> >> > If there actually is a small hydraulic pump connected between those >> > handles? >> > I have had previous experience a lot Chinese hydraulics, engines, >> > generators >> > >> > Chinese hydraulics and engines have bad habits of seeping oil if not >> > downright leaking! >> > Their certainly looks like there's no room there for a reasonably sized >> > reservoir to store the hydraulic oil. >> > >> > If it's being sold for 50 bucks it's probably coming out of China for >> 10 ! >> > >> > Then you still have to consider the fact that if, unless it has changed >> I >> > believe the crimpers still need to be UL listed >> > >> > No way they're going to spend the money for that! >> > >> > Interesting toy to play with but I don't think it would hold up, do good >> > cramps or be legal >> > >> > >> > Bob Ellison >> > >> >> On Feb 6, 2015, at 6:35 PM, Allan Sindelar >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> Wrenches, >> >> Has anyone used the cheap Chinese hydraulic cable crimpers? Any field >> >> reports? Dies appear to be metric; do they correspond to AWG? All >> of >> >> these kits run about $45, which is absurd, as a Klein manual crimper >> for >> >> up to 4/0 runs $200+, and that's what I expected to buy before I came >> >> across lots of these on Ebay. >> >> >> >> An example: >> >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/16-Ton-Hydraulic-Wire-Crimper-Crimping-Tool-11-Dies-Battery-Cable-Lug-Terminal-/310896486645?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4862dfe8f5 >> >> >> >> I'm hesitant without good reviews, but it's tempting. No lectures, >> >> please. >> >> >> >> Thank you, >> >> Allan >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Allan Sindelar >> >> allan at sindelarsolar.com >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> >> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional >> >> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >> >> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >> >> 505 780-2738 cell >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> List-Archive: >> >> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> > >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > -- > Chris Mason > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Design Engineer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > www.cometsolar.com > 264.235.5670 > 869.662.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirk at vtsolar.com Sat Feb 7 15:43:23 2015 From: kirk at vtsolar.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2015 15:43:23 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] tax credit carryover Message-ID: <005e01d04316$b7b924d0$272b6e70$@vtsolar.com> What is the length of carryover for the Federal tax credit (individual)? It's clear in the tax code a business has a one year carry back & 20 year carry forward. For the residential, it seems to indicate only a 1 year carry forward, but not explicitly stated. Thoughts? Thanks. Kirk Herander VT Solar, LLC Proven PV provider since 1991 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at szumlanski.com Sun Feb 8 09:46:10 2015 From: jason at szumlanski.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 09:46:10 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Gen4 - How Is It Doing? In-Reply-To: <54D50057.6090406@berkeleysolar.com> References: <54D50057.6090406@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: M215 failures? I've seen only 1 or 2 out of thousands. The M215 was a remarkable improvement over the M190. Are you having a different experience? Jason Szumlanski On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 12:56 PM, Mark Frye wrote: > Folks, > > How is the Gen4 Enphase (M250) holding up in the field? Any marked > improvement over M215 in terms of failures? > > Mark Frye > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Sun Feb 8 10:54:17 2015 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 10:54:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Gen4 - How Is It Doing? In-Reply-To: References: <54D50057.6090406@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: <361d81edbaafe1dfe53a2775d56d4038.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> We have 0 M-215 failures out of about 300 installed. Pretty good failure rate, if I do say so myself.... > M215 failures? I've seen only 1 or 2 out of thousands. The M215 was a > remarkable improvement over the M190. Are you having a different > experience? > > Jason Szumlanski > > On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 12:56 PM, Mark Frye > wrote: > >> Folks, >> >> How is the Gen4 Enphase (M250) holding up in the field? Any marked >> improvement over M215 in terms of failures? >> >> Mark Frye >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From markf at berkeleysolar.com Sun Feb 8 12:14:34 2015 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2015 09:14:34 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Gen4 - How Is It Doing? In-Reply-To: References: <54D50057.6090406@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: <54D7997A.5090306@berkeleysolar.com> All my M215's are stable in the field. (100% of M190 and M380 replaced at Enphase's cost) Anyone using the M250? Any feedback? Mark On 2/8/2015 6:46 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > M215 failures? I've seen only 1 or 2 out of thousands. The M215 was a > remarkable improvement over the M190. Are you having a different > experience? > > Jason Szumlanski > > On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 12:56 PM, Mark Frye > wrote: > > Folks, > > How is the Gen4 Enphase (M250) holding up in the field? Any marked > improvement over M215 in terms of failures? > > Mark Frye > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Sun Feb 8 12:18:08 2015 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 07:18:08 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120V grid-tie inverter Message-ID: <007501d043c3$37aea320$a70be960$@com> Aloha all, I'm looking for a 2-3 kW grid-tie inverter @ 120V. Any suggestions, please? Thanks, marco -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Sun Feb 8 13:41:40 2015 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (Mike Nelson) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 10:41:40 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Gen4 - How Is It Doing? In-Reply-To: <54D7997A.5090306@berkeleysolar.com> References: <54D50057.6090406@berkeleysolar.com> <54D7997A.5090306@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: <0ED03AAF-59C9-45D3-80DB-D38D31EDE313@gmail.com> I've had a couple of M-215 failures and 1 M-250 failure. Had MANY 190 and 210 failures. Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com Sent from my iPhone > On Feb 8, 2015, at 9:14 AM, Mark Frye wrote: > > All my M215's are stable in the field. (100% of M190 and M380 replaced at Enphase's cost) > > Anyone using the M250? Any feedback? > > Mark > >> On 2/8/2015 6:46 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >> M215 failures? I've seen only 1 or 2 out of thousands. The M215 was a remarkable improvement over the M190. Are you having a different experience? >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 12:56 PM, Mark Frye wrote: >>> Folks, >>> >>> How is the Gen4 Enphase (M250) holding up in the field? Any marked improvement over M215 in terms of failures? >>> >>> Mark Frye > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bill at berkssolar.com Sun Feb 8 15:15:36 2015 From: bill at berkssolar.com (Bill Hennessy) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 20:15:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] 300W 72 cell micro inverters In-Reply-To: <0ED03AAF-59C9-45D3-80DB-D38D31EDE313@gmail.com> References: <0ED03AAF-59C9-45D3-80DB-D38D31EDE313@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1273087486.368372.1423426536207.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi folks-- We're planning a micro inverter install using 300W 72 cell modules for an area with a fair amount of shading. The choices we've found are ABB micro 0.3 or APS YC500A. Any stories to tell about either of these or another suggestion? Thanks for your time.  Bill Hennessy Berks Solar, LLC 371 Centennial Rd Mertztown, PA 19539 o 610 682 4300 c 484 560 4666 NABCEP certified installer PA contractor #44411 www.berkssolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From louis at woofenden.net Sun Feb 8 15:57:19 2015 From: louis at woofenden.net (Louis Woofenden) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2015 13:57:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Gen4 - How Is It Doing? In-Reply-To: References: <54D50057.6090406@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: <54D7CDAF.7050808@woofenden.net> We've had two M250 failures, out of a couple thousand. Both failed in the first few weeks of operation. Our M215 experience is similar. Still doing M190 replacements just about every week, and a few whole-site swaps. Best, Louis Woofenden On 2/8/15 7:46 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > M215 failures? I've seen only 1 or 2 out of thousands. The M215 was a > remarkable improvement over the M190. Are you having a different > experience? > > Jason Szumlanski > > On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 12:56 PM, Mark Frye > wrote: > > Folks, > > How is the Gen4 Enphase (M250) holding up in the field? Any marked > improvement over M215 in terms of failures? > > Mark Frye > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > -- Louis Woofenden Engineering Director Net Zero Solar, LLC 101. W. 5th St., Tucson, AZ 85705 Arizona ROC #248710, 259756, 259521 Phone:520.207.4053 Ex. 2 Cell:520.237.5040 Fax:520.203.7230 E-mail:louis at netzerosolar.net NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professionalâ„¢ NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installerâ„¢ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Feb 8 15:58:17 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 10:58:17 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120V grid-tie inverter In-Reply-To: <007501d043c3$37aea320$a70be960$@com> References: <007501d043c3$37aea320$a70be960$@com> Message-ID: Outback On Feb 8, 2015 7:49 AM, "Marco Mangelsdorf" wrote: > Aloha all, > > > > I’m looking for a 2-3 kW grid-tie inverter @ 120V. > > > > Any suggestions, please? > > > > Thanks, > > marco > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sun Feb 8 15:58:26 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 15:58:26 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 300W 72 cell micro inverters In-Reply-To: <1273087486.368372.1423426536207.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <0ED03AAF-59C9-45D3-80DB-D38D31EDE313@gmail.com> <1273087486.368372.1423426536207.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The ABB micros seem to be solid and easy to install. We have two sites with them with no issues. Unfortunately, the monitoring system sucks compared to Enphase and was far more difficult to set up. I really wish Enphase would come up with a good 72 cell option because we find ourselves competing with 300W modules occasionally, and consumers (irrationally) jump to the conclusion that bigger is better. [image: Logo-Sq-80.png] Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer Florida Solar Design Group (239) 491-8010 office (239) 410-4985 mobile Authorized Sales Agent for Fafco Solar [image: Fafco-Solar-Enphase-Logo.png] License CVC56701 On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 3:15 PM, Bill Hennessy wrote: > Hi folks-- > > We're planning a micro inverter install using 300W 72 cell modules for an > area with a fair amount of shading. The choices we've found are ABB micro > 0.3 or APS YC500A. > Any stories to tell about either of these or another suggestion? > > Thanks for your time. > > Bill Hennessy > Berks Solar, LLC > 371 Centennial Rd > Mertztown, PA 19539 > > o 610 682 4300 > c 484 560 4666 > NABCEP certified installer > PA contractor #44411 > www.berkssolar.com > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- *Florida Solar Design Group is not an engineering or architectural firm and acts only as a consultant and authorized independent sales agent. Any advice or work product provided shall not be considered licensed professional services provided under Florida Statute Chapters 471, 481, or 491.* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com Sun Feb 8 16:51:27 2015 From: nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com (Nick Soleil) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 13:51:27 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 300W 72 cell micro inverters In-Reply-To: References: <0ED03AAF-59C9-45D3-80DB-D38D31EDE313@gmail.com> <1273087486.368372.1423426536207.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Jason, The Enphase C250 Microinverters for three-phase commercial applications does work with 72 cell modules. On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 12:58 PM, Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > The ABB micros seem to be solid and easy to install. We have two sites > with them with no issues. Unfortunately, the monitoring system sucks > compared to Enphase and was far more difficult to set up. I really wish > Enphase would come up with a good 72 cell option because we find ourselves > competing with 300W modules occasionally, and consumers (irrationally) jump > to the conclusion that bigger is better. > > > [image: Logo-Sq-80.png] > > Jason Szumlanski > > Principal Solar Designer > > Florida Solar Design Group > > (239) 491-8010 office > > (239) 410-4985 mobile > > Authorized Sales Agent for Fafco Solar > > [image: Fafco-Solar-Enphase-Logo.png] > > License CVC56701 > > > On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 3:15 PM, Bill Hennessy wrote: > >> Hi folks-- >> >> We're planning a micro inverter install using 300W 72 cell modules for an >> area with a fair amount of shading. The choices we've found are ABB micro >> 0.3 or APS YC500A. >> Any stories to tell about either of these or another suggestion? >> >> Thanks for your time. >> >> Bill Hennessy >> Berks Solar, LLC >> 371 Centennial Rd >> Mertztown, PA 19539 >> >> o 610 682 4300 >> c 484 560 4666 >> NABCEP certified installer >> PA contractor #44411 >> www.berkssolar.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > *Florida Solar Design Group is not an engineering or architectural firm > and acts only as a consultant and authorized independent sales agent. Any > advice or work product provided shall not be considered licensed > professional services provided under Florida Statute Chapters 471, 481, or > 491.* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Cordially, Nick Soleil *Enphase Energy* | Field Applications Engineer office 707-763-4784 <%28707%29%20763.%204784> x7267 cell 07-321-2937 *Powering What’s Next*™* | *The Enphase Energy Management System NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 Texas Master Electrician #284451 “Don’t get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It’s just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there’s an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it’s wireless!” - William McDonough This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not an intended recipient, you may not review, use, copy, disclose or distribute this message. If you received this message in error, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Sun Feb 8 19:32:57 2015 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 19:32:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] 300W 72 cell micro inverters In-Reply-To: References: <0ED03AAF-59C9-45D3-80DB-D38D31EDE313@gmail.com> <1273087486.368372.1423426536207.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <983c8f6c63e827b39de73a7206cab93b.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> Hey Jason, The M-250's work well with LG 300 watt (60 cell) modules. Daryl > Hi Jason, > > The Enphase C250 Microinverters for three-phase commercial applications > does work with 72 cell modules. > > On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 12:58 PM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> The ABB micros seem to be solid and easy to install. We have two sites >> with them with no issues. Unfortunately, the monitoring system sucks >> compared to Enphase and was far more difficult to set up. I really wish >> Enphase would come up with a good 72 cell option because we find >> ourselves >> competing with 300W modules occasionally, and consumers (irrationally) >> jump >> to the conclusion that bigger is better. >> >> >> [image: Logo-Sq-80.png] >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> Principal Solar Designer >> >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> (239) 491-8010 office >> >> (239) 410-4985 mobile >> >> Authorized Sales Agent for Fafco Solar >> >> [image: Fafco-Solar-Enphase-Logo.png] >> >> License CVC56701 >> >> >> On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 3:15 PM, Bill Hennessy >> wrote: >> >>> Hi folks-- >>> >>> We're planning a micro inverter install using 300W 72 cell modules for >>> an >>> area with a fair amount of shading. The choices we've found are ABB >>> micro >>> 0.3 or APS YC500A. >>> Any stories to tell about either of these or another suggestion? >>> >>> Thanks for your time. >>> >>> Bill Hennessy >>> Berks Solar, LLC >>> 371 Centennial Rd >>> Mertztown, PA 19539 >>> >>> o 610 682 4300 >>> c 484 560 4666 >>> NABCEP certified installer >>> PA contractor #44411 >>> www.berkssolar.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> *Florida Solar Design Group is not an engineering or architectural firm >> and acts only as a consultant and authorized independent sales agent. >> Any >> advice or work product provided shall not be considered licensed >> professional services provided under Florida Statute Chapters 471, 481, >> or >> 491.* >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > > Cordially, > > Nick Soleil > *Enphase Energy* | Field Applications Engineer > > office 707-763-4784 <%28707%29%20763.%204784> x7267 > cell 07-321-2937 > > > > *Powering What’s Next*™* | *The Enphase Energy Management System > > > > > > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 > > California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 > > Texas Master Electrician #284451 > > > > “Don’t get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It’s just that I prefer > fusion > to fission. And it just so happens that there’s an enormous fusion > reactor > safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could > ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it’s wireless!” > > - William McDonough > > > > This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and > may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not an > intended recipient, you may not review, use, copy, disclose or distribute > this message. If you received this message in error, please contact the > sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From marco at pvthawaii.com Sun Feb 8 19:39:34 2015 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 14:39:34 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 300W 72 cell micro inverters In-Reply-To: <983c8f6c63e827b39de73a7206cab93b.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> References: <0ED03AAF-59C9-45D3-80DB-D38D31EDE313@gmail.com> <1273087486.368372.1423426536207.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <983c8f6c63e827b39de73a7206cab93b.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> Message-ID: <011e01d04400$e22af820$a680e860$@com> Yeah....if you're OK with a not insignificant amount of clipping going on. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2015 2:33 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 300W 72 cell micro inverters Hey Jason, The M-250's work well with LG 300 watt (60 cell) modules. Daryl > Hi Jason, > > The Enphase C250 Microinverters for three-phase commercial > applications does work with 72 cell modules. > > On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 12:58 PM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> The ABB micros seem to be solid and easy to install. We have two >> sites with them with no issues. Unfortunately, the monitoring system >> sucks compared to Enphase and was far more difficult to set up. I >> really wish Enphase would come up with a good 72 cell option because >> we find ourselves competing with 300W modules occasionally, and >> consumers (irrationally) jump to the conclusion that bigger is >> better. >> >> >> [image: Logo-Sq-80.png] >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> Principal Solar Designer >> >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> (239) 491-8010 office >> >> (239) 410-4985 mobile >> >> Authorized Sales Agent for Fafco Solar >> >> [image: Fafco-Solar-Enphase-Logo.png] >> >> License CVC56701 >> >> >> On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 3:15 PM, Bill Hennessy >> wrote: >> >>> Hi folks-- >>> >>> We're planning a micro inverter install using 300W 72 cell modules >>> for an area with a fair amount of shading. The choices we've found >>> are ABB micro >>> 0.3 or APS YC500A. >>> Any stories to tell about either of these or another suggestion? >>> >>> Thanks for your time. >>> >>> Bill Hennessy >>> Berks Solar, LLC >>> 371 Centennial Rd >>> Mertztown, PA 19539 >>> >>> o 610 682 4300 >>> c 484 560 4666 >>> NABCEP certified installer >>> PA contractor #44411 >>> www.berkssolar.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/mailli >>> st.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> *Florida Solar Design Group is not an engineering or architectural >> firm and acts only as a consultant and authorized independent sales agent. >> Any >> advice or work product provided shall not be considered licensed >> professional services provided under Florida Statute Chapters 471, >> 481, or >> 491.* >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillis >> t.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > > Cordially, > > Nick Soleil > *Enphase Energy* | Field Applications Engineer > > office 707-763-4784 <%28707%29%20763.%204784> x7267 cell 07-321-2937 > > > > *Powering What’s Next*â„¢* | *The Enphase Energy Management System > > > > > > > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 > > California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 > > Texas Master Electrician #284451 > > > > “Don’t get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It’s just that I > prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there’s an > enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It > delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And > it’s wireless!” > > - William McDonough > > > > This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) > and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are > not an intended recipient, you may not review, use, copy, disclose or > distribute this message. If you received this message in error, please > contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From marco at pvthawaii.com Sun Feb 8 18:04:48 2015 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 13:04:48 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120V grid-tie inverter In-Reply-To: References: <007501d043c3$37aea320$a70be960$@com> Message-ID: <015b01d043f3$a4e61380$eeb23a80$@com> Thanks, Jerry. I should mentioned the need for the inverter to be battery-less. marco From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Shafer Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2015 10:58 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 120V grid-tie inverter Outback On Feb 8, 2015 7:49 AM, "Marco Mangelsdorf" wrote: Aloha all, I’m looking for a 2-3 kW grid-tie inverter @ 120V. Any suggestions, please? Thanks, marco _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Feb 8 19:54:18 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 14:54:18 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120V grid-tie inverter In-Reply-To: <015b01d043f3$a4e61380$eeb23a80$@com> References: <007501d043c3$37aea320$a70be960$@com> <015b01d043f3$a4e61380$eeb23a80$@com> Message-ID: Use a enphase with a autotransformer to get the 120 output to the grid, it works well and outback does and I think midnight sells the 4.0 k 120/240 trsnformer. Jerry On Feb 8, 2015 2:44 PM, "Marco Mangelsdorf" wrote: > Thanks, Jerry. I should mentioned the need for the inverter to be > battery-less. > > > > marco > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jerry Shafer > *Sent:* Sunday, February 08, 2015 10:58 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] 120V grid-tie inverter > > > > Outback > > On Feb 8, 2015 7:49 AM, "Marco Mangelsdorf" wrote: > > Aloha all, > > > > I’m looking for a 2-3 kW grid-tie inverter @ 120V. > > > > Any suggestions, please? > > > > Thanks, > > marco > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Mon Feb 9 10:22:00 2015 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 10:22:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] 300W 72 cell micro inverters In-Reply-To: <011e01d04400$e22af820$a680e860$@com> References: <0ED03AAF-59C9-45D3-80DB-D38D31EDE313@gmail.com> <1273087486.368372.1423426536207.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <983c8f6c63e827b39de73a7206cab93b.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> <011e01d04400$e22af820$a680e860$@com> Message-ID: <40f3070730ee3afe89f0da3ad9ee0891.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> What do you typically get out of a 300 watt panel for production when you are grid tied? I know in theory (STC) it is a 300 watt module but we rarely if ever (except in very cold weather)see near that for an output. I use (as a general, 77 degrees F) design parameter, 77% for overall power production output output. I'm sure you would get a little clipping, but I guess a significant amount would depend on a number of variables on the site, time of the year, weather conditions, etc. Daryl > Yeah....if you're OK with a not insignificant amount of clipping going on. > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of penobscotsolar at midmaine.com > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2015 2:33 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 300W 72 cell micro inverters > > Hey Jason, > The M-250's work well with LG 300 watt (60 cell) modules. > > Daryl > > >> Hi Jason, >> >> The Enphase C250 Microinverters for three-phase commercial >> applications does work with 72 cell modules. >> >> On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 12:58 PM, Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> The ABB micros seem to be solid and easy to install. We have two >>> sites with them with no issues. Unfortunately, the monitoring system >>> sucks compared to Enphase and was far more difficult to set up. I >>> really wish Enphase would come up with a good 72 cell option because >>> we find ourselves competing with 300W modules occasionally, and >>> consumers (irrationally) jump to the conclusion that bigger is >>> better. >>> >>> >>> [image: Logo-Sq-80.png] >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> >>> Principal Solar Designer >>> >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> (239) 491-8010 office >>> >>> (239) 410-4985 mobile >>> >>> Authorized Sales Agent for Fafco Solar >>> >>> [image: Fafco-Solar-Enphase-Logo.png] >>> >>> License CVC56701 >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 3:15 PM, Bill Hennessy >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi folks-- >>>> >>>> We're planning a micro inverter install using 300W 72 cell modules >>>> for an area with a fair amount of shading. The choices we've found >>>> are ABB micro >>>> 0.3 or APS YC500A. >>>> Any stories to tell about either of these or another suggestion? >>>> >>>> Thanks for your time. >>>> >>>> Bill Hennessy >>>> Berks Solar, LLC >>>> 371 Centennial Rd >>>> Mertztown, PA 19539 >>>> >>>> o 610 682 4300 >>>> c 484 560 4666 >>>> NABCEP certified installer >>>> PA contractor #44411 >>>> www.berkssolar.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/mailli >>>> st.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> *Florida Solar Design Group is not an engineering or architectural >>> firm and acts only as a consultant and authorized independent sales >>> agent. >>> Any >>> advice or work product provided shall not be considered licensed >>> professional services provided under Florida Statute Chapters 471, >>> 481, or >>> 491.* >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillis >>> t.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> Cordially, >> >> Nick Soleil >> *Enphase Energy* | Field Applications Engineer >> >> office 707-763-4784 <%28707%29%20763.%204784> x7267 cell 07-321-2937 >> >> >> >> *Powering What’s Next*â„¢* | *The Enphase Energy Management >> System >> >> >> >> >> >> >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 >> >> California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 >> >> Texas Master Electrician #284451 >> >> >> >> “Don’t get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It’s >> just that I >> prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there’s an >> enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It >> delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And >> it’s wireless!” >> >> - William McDonough >> >> >> >> This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) >> and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are >> not an intended recipient, you may not review, use, copy, disclose or >> distribute this message. If you received this message in error, please >> contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original >> message. >> > _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist >> .html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From daniel at greenwired.com Mon Feb 9 14:14:11 2015 From: daniel at greenwired.com (Dan Tittmann) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 12:14:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Inverter Replacement Questions In-Reply-To: References: <54CC29A4.9010608@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: AS someone who works almost exclusively with off grid battery based inverters for years. I would recommend staying away from the outback line of inverters. We are seeing outback failures in units that are only 2 to 3 years old, once you get through to the Tech Support generally a 30 to 40 min hold time and forget about the "call you back feature" unless you want a call back in three days. The board replacements that we get are a total crap shoot. I have had replacement boards fail within minutes and many of them within in months and there is no warranty on the boards. I would go with Magun Hybrid as it is a 120 V AC unit and has load assist like the old SW's. We are always sorry to replace the old SW units but after 20+ years of service I guess they have put in their work. Magnum has provided us with reliable service since we started installing them 6 Years ago. I hope they keep their product as reliable with the new owners. my two cents Daniel Daniel Tittmann CTO Greenwired www.greenwired.com daniel at greenwired.com 707-923-2001 (office) 707-206-5088 (Cell) On Wed, Feb 4, 2015 at 9:01 PM, John Blittersdorf < john.blittersdorf at gmail.com> wrote: > Allan, > I would replace with a VFX3524 and a Mate3 as long as the backup > generator is big enough. FX's don't load share or gen support. I have had > lousy luck with getting several magnums repaired. All have been switched > to Outback. The Radian would be a nightmare to install compared to a > single FX. I sell Radians primarily for grid tie backup systems and very > high demand off grid. And to replace Magnums. I have had no trouble with > Outback service and getting boards for on site repairs. Quality of boards > OK. The Mate 3 is more intuitive than the Mate and has lots more > information. Works fabulously with OpticsRE for monitoring. I have a > remote mountaintop transmitter site that has been a nightmare for years and > now we finally got all the pieces together at one time to make it work.. > Good generator (EcoGen) new batteries, and 4000 watts of solar on top of > pole racks (to self clear of snow) VFX3648 with IOTA 12v battery charger > for the DC Loads, and the MATE3 hooked up to the internet and OpticsRE. > All is now calm on the mountaintop. > > John Blittersdorf > Central Vermont Solar & wind > > On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 8:02 PM, Allan Sindelar > wrote: > >> Esteemed Wrenches, >> This question is prompted by a specific customer's situation, and I have >> a question related to this, but I'm mainly using the situation to ask a >> broader question. >> >> The specific situation: A customer's Xantrex SW+2524 has been acting >> erratically. Fixing the inverter is not the issue; the client is quite >> remote, and costs of diagnosis, parts and labor for these legacy units have >> gone up enough that the customer has already decided to replace the unit >> with a current product. From my perspective, the issues at hand revolve >> around how to safely and cleanly install a modern inverter into a system >> structured around old equipment. >> >> The specific question: Outback's FX series is the current product that >> most readily replaces the SW/SW+ series: it's also 120V in/out, and it has >> DC on the right and AC in/out on the left of a horizontally-laid out unit. >> However, several times in recent years I have heard disparaging comments, >> both here and in private conversations, about the purported drop in quality >> of Outback's inverters and controllers since Alpha bought them, but >> specifically because units, or parts of units, are now made in China, >> rather than in the U.S. What I want to know, please, are answers to two+ >> questions: 1) what's the real scoop? what is now made where? and 2) what >> actual experiences, specifically product failures, have any of you had that >> directly relate to changes directly attributable to overseas production? In >> other words, how much of this is real and how much is rumor? >> >> The bigger question (and this issue will come up frequently in the coming >> years): the SW+, like the SW before it, operates at 120V AC on both input >> and output. More and more modern battery-based inverters input and output >> split-phase 120/240V AC. When should I hesitate to replace a 120V legacy >> inverter with a 120/240V unit? >> >> Among larger whole-house single inverters, Outback's FX and VFX units >> operate at 120V, but these are older models. SMA's Sunny Island is 120V >> only, but this is generally considered a weakness in typical SI >> installations, and these expensive units don't adapt as well as >> replacements in older home systems. Magnum's MS4024 is available in either >> configuration. Outback's Radian and Schneider's XW and Conext SW are only >> available as 120-240 units. >> >> Here are the issues that I see: >> Don't do it if a backup generator is 120V AC-only. It will work, but is >> hard on the inverters, as all charging current will come in on one leg of >> the inverter's AC input. Fortunately, relatively few generators are >> 120V-only; pretty much just the smaller inverter-generators. Most cheaper >> gennies are 240V, and either run through a step-down balancing transformer >> (which would be taken out with the old 120V inverter) or run out of >> balance. Many better portable generators have a 120/120-240 switch, making >> it necessary to only replace a cable and plug to add a second hot conductor. >> >> Also, most older AC switchgear, such as QO403 inverter bypass switches, >> are set up for single pole breakers, and would thus require replacement, >> and reworking in general on the AC side to handle two hot input and output >> conductors. >> >> But once the jumper between the two hot legs is removed in the AC main >> panel, and two hots are connected, making the panel 120-240, what are the >> concerns that I might not have anticipated? Are there any hidden dangers, >> or situations where this change could cause problems, especially in AC >> distribution? >> >> Thanks in advance. I hope that I don't regret posting this late on a >> Friday... >> Allan >> -- >> >> *Allan Sindelar* >> allan at sindelarsolar.com >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional >> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >> *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Mon Feb 9 18:22:07 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Larry) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2015 16:22:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Inverter Replacement Questions In-Reply-To: References: <54CC29A4.9010608@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <54D9411F.9090800@starlightsolar.com> Dan and Allan, I was not going to comment on this thread since my info is a few years old. But since you brought up recent failures I will tell my experience. A few year ago we were having failures with new FM60 and FM80 controllers. Brand new DOA controllers were replaced with used, warranty repaired controllers. One customer had 3 controllers replaced in 30 days. After too many calls to Outback and not one penny in compensation, we totally quit selling all Outback products. Since then we have sold hundreds of Magnum Energy inverters. The only failure we have had was very recently with their new MSH series. For charge controllers we switched to Midnight Classic. We install 10-15 Classic 150's per month. We have had 1 DOA but Midnite responded well and sent a new replacement. Attention manufacturers...Customer service is everything to me. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On 2/9/15 12:14 PM, Dan Tittmann wrote: > AS someone who works almost exclusively with off grid battery based > inverters for years. I would recommend staying away from the outback > line of inverters. We are seeing outback failures in units that are > only 2 to 3 years old, once you get through to the Tech Support > generally a 30 to 40 min hold time and forget about the "call you back > feature" unless you want a call back in three days. The board > replacements that we get are a total crap shoot. I have had > replacement boards fail within minutes and many of them within in > months and there is no warranty on the boards. > > I would go with Magun Hybrid as it is a 120 V AC unit and has load > assist like the old SW's. We are always sorry to replace the old SW > units but after 20+ years of service I guess they have put in their > work. Magnum has provided us with reliable service since we started > installing them 6 Years ago. I hope they keep their product as > reliable with the new owners. > > my two cents > Daniel > > > > Daniel Tittmann > CTO > Greenwired > www.greenwired.com > daniel at greenwired.com > 707-923-2001 (office) > 707-206-5088 (Cell) > On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 8:02 PM, Allan Sindelar > > wrote: > > Esteemed Wrenches, > > ....What I want to know, please, are answers to two+ > questions: 1) what's the real scoop? what is now made where? > and 2) what actual experiences, specifically product failures, > have any of you had that directly relate to changes directly > attributable to overseas production? In other words, how much > of this is real and how much is rumor?.... > > > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Mon Feb 9 19:12:14 2015 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 19:12:14 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Inverter Replacement Questions In-Reply-To: <54D9411F.9090800@starlightsolar.com> References: <54CC29A4.9010608@sindelarsolar.com> <54D9411F.9090800@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <3E67A046-379F-42AB-976F-02D5F7DADCAD@swnl.net> One of my main reasons for owning and first choice is the SMA SI. One hel* of a product, yeah the price IS hi but.......SMA is I believe the ONLY manufacture that will open a claim ticket for repair and give you 90 days to send in for labor compensation. As for the Sunny Island products.... I tell customers if these units fail, a 48 Hr delivery replacement from SMA, but SMA says 24hr. Round trip shipping IS INCLUDED! Tech support IS available and right on top of things. Someone at SMA may want to confirm but this has always been my experience. On Feb 9, 2015, at 6:22 PM, Larry wrote: > Dan and Allan, > > I was not going to comment on this thread since my info is a few years old. But since you brought up recent failures I will tell my experience. A few year ago we were having failures with new FM60 and FM80 controllers. Brand new DOA controllers were replaced with used, warranty repaired controllers. One customer had 3 controllers replaced in 30 days. After too many calls to Outback and not one penny in compensation, we totally quit selling all Outback products. > > Since then we have sold hundreds of Magnum Energy inverters. The only failure we have had was very recently with their new MSH series. For charge controllers we switched to Midnight Classic. We install 10-15 Classic 150's per month. We have had 1 DOA but Midnite responded well and sent a new replacement. > > Attention manufacturers...Customer service is everything to me. > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > On 2/9/15 12:14 PM, Dan Tittmann wrote: >> AS someone who works almost exclusively with off grid battery based inverters for years. I would recommend staying away from the outback line of inverters. We are seeing outback failures in units that are only 2 to 3 years old, once you get through to the Tech Support generally a 30 to 40 min hold time and forget about the "call you back feature" unless you want a call back in three days. The board replacements that we get are a total crap shoot. I have had replacement boards fail within minutes and many of them within in months and there is no warranty on the boards. >> >> I would go with Magun Hybrid as it is a 120 V AC unit and has load assist like the old SW's. We are always sorry to replace the old SW units but after 20+ years of service I guess they have put in their work. Magnum has provided us with reliable service since we started installing them 6 Years ago. I hope they keep their product as reliable with the new owners. >> >> my two cents >> Daniel >> >> >> >> Daniel Tittmann >> CTO >> Greenwired >> www.greenwired.com >> daniel at greenwired.com >> 707-923-2001 (office) >> 707-206-5088 (Cell) > >> On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 8:02 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: >> Esteemed Wrenches, >> ....What I want to know, please, are answers to two+ questions: 1) what's the real scoop? what is now made where? and 2) what actual experiences, specifically product failures, have any of you had that directly relate to changes directly attributable to overseas production? In other words, how much of this is real and how much is rumor?.... >> >> >> -- >> Allan Sindelar >> allan at sindelarsolar.com >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional >> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >> 505 780-2738 cell >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Feb 9 19:19:16 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 14:19:16 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 300W 72 cell micro inverters In-Reply-To: References: <0ED03AAF-59C9-45D3-80DB-D38D31EDE313@gmail.com> <1273087486.368372.1423426536207.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Nick I need some help with Enphase I have a customer with broken End caps (3) and Enhpase is not inclined to help, can you help me get some replacements please Jerry On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 11:51 AM, Nick Soleil wrote: > Hi Jason, > > The Enphase C250 Microinverters for three-phase commercial applications > does work with 72 cell modules. > > On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 12:58 PM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> The ABB micros seem to be solid and easy to install. We have two sites >> with them with no issues. Unfortunately, the monitoring system sucks >> compared to Enphase and was far more difficult to set up. I really wish >> Enphase would come up with a good 72 cell option because we find ourselves >> competing with 300W modules occasionally, and consumers (irrationally) jump >> to the conclusion that bigger is better. >> >> >> [image: Logo-Sq-80.png] >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> Principal Solar Designer >> >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> (239) 491-8010 office >> >> (239) 410-4985 mobile >> >> Authorized Sales Agent for Fafco Solar >> >> [image: Fafco-Solar-Enphase-Logo.png] >> >> License CVC56701 >> >> >> On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 3:15 PM, Bill Hennessy >> wrote: >> >>> Hi folks-- >>> >>> We're planning a micro inverter install using 300W 72 cell modules for >>> an area with a fair amount of shading. The choices we've found are ABB >>> micro 0.3 or APS YC500A. >>> Any stories to tell about either of these or another suggestion? >>> >>> Thanks for your time. >>> >>> Bill Hennessy >>> Berks Solar, LLC >>> 371 Centennial Rd >>> Mertztown, PA 19539 >>> >>> o 610 682 4300 >>> c 484 560 4666 >>> NABCEP certified installer >>> PA contractor #44411 >>> www.berkssolar.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> *Florida Solar Design Group is not an engineering or architectural firm >> and acts only as a consultant and authorized independent sales agent. Any >> advice or work product provided shall not be considered licensed >> professional services provided under Florida Statute Chapters 471, 481, or >> 491.* >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > > Cordially, > > Nick Soleil > *Enphase Energy* | Field Applications Engineer > > office 707-763-4784 <%28707%29%20763.%204784> x7267 > cell 07-321-2937 > > > > *Powering What’s Next*™* | *The Enphase Energy Management System > > > > > > > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 > > California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 > > Texas Master Electrician #284451 > > > > “Don’t get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It’s just that I prefer fusion > to fission. And it just so happens that there’s an enormous fusion reactor > safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could > ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it’s wireless!” > > - William McDonough > > > This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not an intended recipient, you may not review, use, copy, disclose or distribute this message. If you received this message in error, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Feb 10 09:03:57 2015 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 09:03:57 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 300W 72 cell micro inverters In-Reply-To: <40f3070730ee3afe89f0da3ad9ee0891.squirrel@mail.myottmail.c om> References: <0ED03AAF-59C9-45D3-80DB-D38D31EDE313@gmail.com> <1273087486.368372.1423426536207.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <983c8f6c63e827b39de73a7206cab93b.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> <011e01d04400$e22af820$a680e860$@com> <40f3070730ee3afe89f0da3ad9ee0891.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> Message-ID: <20150210140423.23C6628205F@homiemail-a82.g.dreamhost.com> That would be at the 120% rating, so by rule of thumb, OK. I have a ground mount that has a ration of 1.15% with M-190s (figuring 199 W / inverter). It has quite a bit of clipping in the spring. It has optimized tilt for the location. A ballasted roof mount with a 10 or 15 degree tilt likely wouldn't have that issue. This system went in the spring of 2010, and has only had one M-190 failure out of 24, amazingly enough. At 10:22 AM 2/9/2015, you wrote: >What do you typically get out of a 300 watt panel for production when you >are grid tied? I know in theory (STC) it is a 300 watt module but we >rarely if ever (except in very cold weather)see near that for an output. I >use (as a general, 77 degrees F) design parameter, 77% for overall power >production output output. I'm sure you would get a little clipping, but I >guess a significant amount would depend on a number of variables on the >site, time of the year, weather conditions, etc. > >Daryl > > > > Yeah....if you're OK with a not insignificant amount of clipping going on. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > > Behalf Of penobscotsolar at midmaine.com > > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2015 2:33 PM > > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 300W 72 cell micro inverters > > > > Hey Jason, > > The M-250's work well with LG 300 watt (60 cell) modules. > > > > Daryl > > > > > >> Hi Jason, > >> > >> The Enphase C250 Microinverters for three-phase commercial > >> applications does work with 72 cell modules. > >> > >> On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 12:58 PM, Jason Szumlanski < > >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> > >>> The ABB micros seem to be solid and easy to install. We have two > >>> sites with them with no issues. Unfortunately, the monitoring system > >>> sucks compared to Enphase and was far more difficult to set up. I > >>> really wish Enphase would come up with a good 72 cell option because > >>> we find ourselves competing with 300W modules occasionally, and > >>> consumers (irrationally) jump to the conclusion that bigger is > >>> better. > >>> > >>> > >>> [image: Logo-Sq-80.png] > >>> > >>> Jason Szumlanski > >>> > >>> Principal Solar Designer > >>> > >>> Florida Solar Design Group > >>> > >>> (239) 491-8010 office > >>> > >>> (239) 410-4985 mobile > >>> > >>> Authorized Sales Agent for Fafco Solar > >>> > >>> [image: Fafco-Solar-Enphase-Logo.png] > >>> > >>> License CVC56701 > >>> > >>> > >>> On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 3:15 PM, Bill Hennessy > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Hi folks-- > >>>> > >>>> We're planning a micro inverter install using 300W 72 cell modules > >>>> for an area with a fair amount of shading. The choices we've found > >>>> are ABB micro > >>>> 0.3 or APS YC500A. > >>>> Any stories to tell about either of these or another suggestion? > >>>> > >>>> Thanks for your time. > >>>> > >>>> Bill Hennessy > >>>> Berks Solar, LLC > >>>> 371 Centennial Rd > >>>> Mertztown, PA 19539 > >>>> > >>>> o 610 682 4300 > >>>> c 484 560 4666 > >>>> NABCEP certified installer > >>>> PA contractor #44411 > >>>> www.berkssolar.com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >>>> > >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >>>> > >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: > >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >>>> > >>>> List-Archive: > >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/mailli > >>>> st.html > >>>> > >>>> List rules & etiquette: > >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >>>> > >>>> Check out or update participant bios: > >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> *Florida Solar Design Group is not an engineering or architectural > >>> firm and acts only as a consultant and authorized independent sales > >>> agent. > >>> Any > >>> advice or work product provided shall not be considered licensed > >>> professional services provided under Florida Statute Chapters 471, > >>> 481, or > >>> 491.* > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >>> > >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> Change listserver email address & settings: > >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> List-Archive: > >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillis > >>> t.html > >>> > >>> List rules & etiquette: > >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >>> > >>> Check out or update participant bios: > >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> Cordially, > >> > >> Nick Soleil > >> *Enphase Energy* | Field Applications Engineer > >> > >> office 707-763-4784 <%28707%29%20763.%204784> x7267 cell 07-321-2937 > >> > >> > >> > >> *Powering What’s Next*â„¢* | *The Enphase Energy Management > >> System > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 > >> > >> California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 > >> > >> Texas Master Electrician #284451 > >> > >> > >> > >> “Don’t get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It’s > >> just that I > >> prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there’s an > >> enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It > >> delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And > >> it’s wireless!” > >> > >> - William McDonough > >> > >> > >> > >> This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) > >> and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are > >> not an intended recipient, you may not review, use, copy, disclose or > >> distribute this message. If you received this message in error, please > >> contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original > >> message. > >> > > _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List-Archive: > >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > >> .html > >> > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org From solman at legacysolar.com Tue Feb 10 12:54:54 2015 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 11:54:54 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] tax credit carryover In-Reply-To: <005e01d04316$b7b924d0$272b6e70$@vtsolar.com> References: <005e01d04316$b7b924d0$272b6e70$@vtsolar.com> Message-ID: I am interested in the answer to your question, Kirk. If you find it somewhere other than on this thread, can you please let me know. I have heard 5 years, but not from a CPA. Thanks, Kris On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 2:43 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: > What is the length of carryover for the Federal tax credit (individual)? > It’s clear in the tax code a business has a one year carry back & 20 year > carry forward. For the residential, it seems to indicate only a 1 year > carry forward, but not explicitly stated. Thoughts? Thanks. > > > > *Kirk Herander* > > *VT Solar, LLC * > > *Proven PV provider since 1991* > > *www.vermontsolarnow.com * > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > 802.863.1202 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installer Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Tue Feb 10 13:01:17 2015 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 12:01:17 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP consultant fee In-Reply-To: <015001d042ea$aa1fb6d0$fe5f2470$@solarandwindfx.com> References: <015001d042ea$aa1fb6d0$fe5f2470$@solarandwindfx.com> Message-ID: Chris, I have done this in the past. WI incentives used to require NABCEP cert. Looking back, i probably undercharged. Given that you are putting your reputation and certification on the line and therefor will need to be involved in design, planning, and inspection, i think that a percentage of the installed cost would be a good way to approach it. I see this service as very similar to a construction manager who typically receives 5-7% of project cost. Just my .02 Kris On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 9:28 AM, Chris Schaefer wrote: > Good Day All, > > While I’m unsure how all states handle NABCEP, here in New > York in order to obtain state incentives you or someone within your company > must be a NABCEP PV professional. With the growth that our industry is > experiencing there are more and more non-PV companies jumping into the > scene. These companies are seeking out NABCEP individuals to add to their > staffs without actually adding them to the payroll. My question to my > NABCEP peers is what are you charging per project or how are you getting > financially reimburse for your time/skills? Per watt, per project? If > you’re uncomfortable making this public feel free to share your thoughts > with me off list via my email or give me a call. > > > > Sincerely, > > Christopher Schaefer > > > > Chris Schaefer’s > > [image: SolarWindFX] > > * Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 <585-229-2083> or Cell > 585-748-1870 <585-748-1870> * > > * 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424* > > *www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: > chris at solarandwindfx.com * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to > exist > when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who > would not." > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installer Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image009.png Type: image/png Size: 24285 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image012.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2759 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image011.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2415 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image010.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2593 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Tue Feb 10 13:05:05 2015 From: Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com (Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 13:05:05 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 300W 72 cell micro inverters In-Reply-To: <20150210140423.23C6628205F@homiemail-a82.g.dreamhost.com> References: <0ED03AAF-59C9-45D3-80DB-D38D31EDE313@gmail.com> <1273087486.368372.1423426536207.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <983c8f6c63e827b39de73a7206cab93b.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> <011e01d04400$e22af820$a680e860$@com> <40f3070730ee3afe89f0da3ad9ee0891.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> <20150210140423.23C6628205F@homiemail-a82.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Hi: One thing to keep in mind with clipping, (module over sizing), is that if a system has 10%-15% off clipping, that will not affect total annual energy harvest and depending on dust and temperature conditions will likely even improve it. Heres' a graph which shows the energy harvest graphically for a 250W module with a 250W inverter and a and 300W module with a 250W inverter. Please note the graph does not include any dust effects. To compensate for dust, the modules should always be of the order of 4% more powerful than the inverter, unless you plan on washing modules every month. Related to this, large commercial systems we have been supplying inverters to are 30-70% oversized as the sinking cost of modules makes the return on investment come out as maximized in that range of oversizing, JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Drake To: RE-wrenches , Date: 02/10/2015 06:51 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 300W 72 cell micro inverters Sent by: "RE-wrenches" That would be at the 120% rating, so by rule of thumb, OK. I have a ground mount that has a ration of 1.15% with M-190s (figuring 199 W / inverter). It has quite a bit of clipping in the spring. It has optimized tilt for the location. A ballasted roof mount with a 10 or 15 degree tilt likely wouldn't have that issue. This system went in the spring of 2010, and has only had one M-190 failure out of 24, amazingly enough. At 10:22 AM 2/9/2015, you wrote: >What do you typically get out of a 300 watt panel for production when you >are grid tied? I know in theory (STC) it is a 300 watt module but we >rarely if ever (except in very cold weather)see near that for an output. I >use (as a general, 77 degrees F) design parameter, 77% for overall power >production output output. I'm sure you would get a little clipping, but I >guess a significant amount would depend on a number of variables on the >site, time of the year, weather conditions, etc. > >Daryl > > > > Yeah....if you're OK with a not insignificant amount of clipping going on. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > > Behalf Of penobscotsolar at midmaine.com > > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2015 2:33 PM > > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 300W 72 cell micro inverters > > > > Hey Jason, > > The M-250's work well with LG 300 watt (60 cell) modules. > > > > Daryl > > > > > >> Hi Jason, > >> > >> The Enphase C250 Microinverters for three-phase commercial > >> applications does work with 72 cell modules. > >> > >> On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 12:58 PM, Jason Szumlanski < > >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> > >>> The ABB micros seem to be solid and easy to install. We have two > >>> sites with them with no issues. Unfortunately, the monitoring system > >>> sucks compared to Enphase and was far more difficult to set up. I > >>> really wish Enphase would come up with a good 72 cell option because > >>> we find ourselves competing with 300W modules occasionally, and > >>> consumers (irrationally) jump to the conclusion that bigger is > >>> better. > >>> > >>> > >>> [image: Logo-Sq-80.png] > >>> > >>> Jason Szumlanski > >>> > >>> Principal Solar Designer > >>> > >>> Florida Solar Design Group > >>> > >>> (239) 491-8010 office > >>> > >>> (239) 410-4985 mobile > >>> > >>> Authorized Sales Agent for Fafco Solar > >>> > >>> [image: Fafco-Solar-Enphase-Logo.png] > >>> > >>> License CVC56701 > >>> > >>> > >>> On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 3:15 PM, Bill Hennessy > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Hi folks-- > >>>> > >>>> We're planning a micro inverter install using 300W 72 cell modules > >>>> for an area with a fair amount of shading. The choices we've found > >>>> are ABB micro > >>>> 0.3 or APS YC500A. > >>>> Any stories to tell about either of these or another suggestion? > >>>> > >>>> Thanks for your time. > >>>> > >>>> Bill Hennessy > >>>> Berks Solar, LLC > >>>> 371 Centennial Rd > >>>> Mertztown, PA 19539 > >>>> > >>>> o 610 682 4300 > >>>> c 484 560 4666 > >>>> NABCEP certified installer > >>>> PA contractor #44411 > >>>> www.berkssolar.com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >>>> > >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >>>> > >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: > >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >>>> > >>>> List-Archive: > >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/mailli > >>>> st.html > >>>> > >>>> List rules & etiquette: > >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >>>> > >>>> Check out or update participant bios: > >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> *Florida Solar Design Group is not an engineering or architectural > >>> firm and acts only as a consultant and authorized independent sales > >>> agent. > >>> Any > >>> advice or work product provided shall not be considered licensed > >>> professional services provided under Florida Statute Chapters 471, > >>> 481, or > >>> 491.* > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >>> > >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> Change listserver email address & settings: > >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> List-Archive: > >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillis > >>> t.html > >>> > >>> List rules & etiquette: > >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >>> > >>> Check out or update participant bios: > >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> Cordially, > >> > >> Nick Soleil > >> *Enphase Energy* | Field Applications Engineer > >> > >> office 707-763-4784 <%28707%29%20763.%204784> x7267 cell 07-321-2937 > >> > >> > >> > >> *Powering What’s Next*â„¢* | *The Enphase Energy Management > >> System > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 > >> > >> California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 > >> > >> Texas Master Electrician #284451 > >> > >> > >> > >> “Don’t get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It’s > >> just that I > >> prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there’s an > >> enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It > >> delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And > >> it’s wireless!” > >> > >> - William McDonough > >> > >> > >> > >> This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) > >> and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are > >> not an intended recipient, you may not review, use, copy, disclose or > >> distribute this message. If you received this message in error, please > >> contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original > >> message. > >> > > _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List-Archive: > >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > >> .html > >> > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41767 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay at asis.com Tue Feb 10 14:09:02 2015 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 11:09:02 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Inverter Replacement Questions In-Reply-To: References: <54CC29A4.9010608@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <3E143D40-8856-44EE-BD12-1BFFACE60982@asis.com> It's amazing how different our experiences are with the same equipment! I've installed hundreds of outbacks, and fixed my share to be sure. But they are the only one I know of that sends just boards and that you don't have to send the inverter back ( offgrid ). In the dozens of rebuilt outbacks, I've never had to re-fix one. Their ship time on board sets is pretty fast. The CC issue is long in the past, FYI Out of the dozen magnums I've installed I've had one DOA, another fail in 2 months, and a 3rd that had such bad rf noise I had to replace it with a VFX. My last failure took almost 3 weeks from removal to replacement while I waited to get it back. Yes fixed for free. Schneider no longer sends board sets. I just had a customer buy a new XW, vs try and repair it, given the unknown repair time or cost, truck cost both ways, my time etc. SMA, wish I could get my clients to afford them! So I'm with john. Jay Peltz power. > On Feb 4, 2015, at 8:01 PM, John Blittersdorf wrote: > > Allan, > I would replace with a VFX3524 and a Mate3 as long as the backup generator is big enough. FX's don't load share or gen support. I have had lousy luck with getting several magnums repaired. All have been switched to Outback. The Radian would be a nightmare to install compared to a single FX. I sell Radians primarily for grid tie backup systems and very high demand off grid. And to replace Magnums. I have had no trouble with Outback service and getting boards for on site repairs. Quality of boards OK. The Mate 3 is more intuitive than the Mate and has lots more information. Works fabulously with OpticsRE for monitoring. I have a remote mountaintop transmitter site that has been a nightmare for years and now we finally got all the pieces together at one time to make it work.. Good generator (EcoGen) new batteries, and 4000 watts of solar on top of pole racks (to self clear of snow) VFX3648 with IOTA 12v battery charger for the DC Loads, and the MATE3 hooked up to the internet and OpticsRE. All is now calm on the mountaintop. > > John Blittersdorf > Central Vermont Solar & wind > >> On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 8:02 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: >> Esteemed Wrenches, >> This question is prompted by a specific customer's situation, and I have a question related to this, but I'm mainly using the situation to ask a broader question. >> >> The specific situation: A customer's Xantrex SW+2524 has been acting erratically. Fixing the inverter is not the issue; the client is quite remote, and costs of diagnosis, parts and labor for these legacy units have gone up enough that the customer has already decided to replace the unit with a current product. From my perspective, the issues at hand revolve around how to safely and cleanly install a modern inverter into a system structured around old equipment. >> >> The specific question: Outback's FX series is the current product that most readily replaces the SW/SW+ series: it's also 120V in/out, and it has DC on the right and AC in/out on the left of a horizontally-laid out unit. However, several times in recent years I have heard disparaging comments, both here and in private conversations, about the purported drop in quality of Outback's inverters and controllers since Alpha bought them, but specifically because units, or parts of units, are now made in China, rather than in the U.S. What I want to know, please, are answers to two+ questions: 1) what's the real scoop? what is now made where? and 2) what actual experiences, specifically product failures, have any of you had that directly relate to changes directly attributable to overseas production? In other words, how much of this is real and how much is rumor? >> >> The bigger question (and this issue will come up frequently in the coming years): the SW+, like the SW before it, operates at 120V AC on both input and output. More and more modern battery-based inverters input and output split-phase 120/240V AC. When should I hesitate to replace a 120V legacy inverter with a 120/240V unit? >> >> Among larger whole-house single inverters, Outback's FX and VFX units operate at 120V, but these are older models. SMA's Sunny Island is 120V only, but this is generally considered a weakness in typical SI installations, and these expensive units don't adapt as well as replacements in older home systems. Magnum's MS4024 is available in either configuration. Outback's Radian and Schneider's XW and Conext SW are only available as 120-240 units. >> >> Here are the issues that I see: >> Don't do it if a backup generator is 120V AC-only. It will work, but is hard on the inverters, as all charging current will come in on one leg of the inverter's AC input. Fortunately, relatively few generators are 120V-only; pretty much just the smaller inverter-generators. Most cheaper gennies are 240V, and either run through a step-down balancing transformer (which would be taken out with the old 120V inverter) or run out of balance. Many better portable generators have a 120/120-240 switch, making it necessary to only replace a cable and plug to add a second hot conductor. >> >> Also, most older AC switchgear, such as QO403 inverter bypass switches, are set up for single pole breakers, and would thus require replacement, and reworking in general on the AC side to handle two hot input and output conductors. >> >> But once the jumper between the two hot legs is removed in the AC main panel, and two hots are connected, making the panel 120-240, what are the concerns that I might not have anticipated? Are there any hidden dangers, or situations where this change could cause problems, especially in AC distribution? >> >> Thanks in advance. I hope that I don't regret posting this late on a Friday... >> Allan >> -- >> Allan Sindelar >> allan at sindelarsolar.com >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional >> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >> 505 780-2738 cell >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Tue Feb 10 18:36:33 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 16:36:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Inverter Replacement Questions In-Reply-To: <3E143D40-8856-44EE-BD12-1BFFACE60982@asis.com> References: <54CC29A4.9010608@sindelarsolar.com> <3E143D40-8856-44EE-BD12-1BFFACE60982@asis.com> Message-ID: <02db01d0458a$686642c0$3932c840$@com> I have to share Jays experience here. I have lost track of how many OB inverters and charge controllers I have installed since OB hit the scene. I have never had a dead unit out of a box and have only had to swap out 4 sets of circuit broads over the years(mostly due to lightning related). I have never had a bad board initially and not had a replacement die. I can say that the wait on the tech line has lengthened severely over time and leaving a message for a call back is a joke (3 days till a response on the last message I left). I have to applaud the OB collection of equipment for compatibility OB to OB and communication has been great. The old Trace SW series used to have “HAL2001” on the front panel as a reference to 2001 Space Odyssey movie because it ran the ship. I would have to say that today’s OB equipment has taken that a step further. I live in OB GTVFX grid tied with battery backup for the last 10 years and it has been flawless. I caution the new owners of OB to not get complacent (Xanterex is a prime example) and keep the quality that they were famous for and improve the tech support access. When I am on a site 2 hours from the shop, barely have cell service, & need tech support, I need it then not in 3 days & the email response time is typically the same as leaving a message. I will continue for now to install OB. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 - No FAX Line "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay peltz Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2015 12:09 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Inverter Replacement Questions It's amazing how different our experiences are with the same equipment! I've installed hundreds of outbacks, and fixed my share to be sure. But they are the only one I know of that sends just boards and that you don't have to send the inverter back ( offgrid ). In the dozens of rebuilt outbacks, I've never had to re-fix one. Their ship time on board sets is pretty fast. The CC issue is long in the past, FYI Out of the dozen magnums I've installed I've had one DOA, another fail in 2 months, and a 3rd that had such bad rf noise I had to replace it with a VFX. My last failure took almost 3 weeks from removal to replacement while I waited to get it back. Yes fixed for free. Schneider no longer sends board sets. I just had a customer buy a new XW, vs try and repair it, given the unknown repair time or cost, truck cost both ways, my time etc. SMA, wish I could get my clients to afford them! So I'm with john. Jay Peltz power. On Feb 4, 2015, at 8:01 PM, John Blittersdorf wrote: Allan, I would replace with a VFX3524 and a Mate3 as long as the backup generator is big enough. FX's don't load share or gen support. I have had lousy luck with getting several magnums repaired. All have been switched to Outback. The Radian would be a nightmare to install compared to a single FX. I sell Radians primarily for grid tie backup systems and very high demand off grid. And to replace Magnums. I have had no trouble with Outback service and getting boards for on site repairs. Quality of boards OK. The Mate 3 is more intuitive than the Mate and has lots more information. Works fabulously with OpticsRE for monitoring. I have a remote mountaintop transmitter site that has been a nightmare for years and now we finally got all the pieces together at one time to make it work.. Good generator (EcoGen) new batteries, and 4000 watts of solar on top of pole racks (to self clear of snow) VFX3648 with IOTA 12v battery charger for the DC Loads, and the MATE3 hooked up to the internet and OpticsRE. All is now calm on the mountaintop. John Blittersdorf Central Vermont Solar & wind On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 8:02 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: Esteemed Wrenches, This question is prompted by a specific customer's situation, and I have a question related to this, but I'm mainly using the situation to ask a broader question. The specific situation: A customer's Xantrex SW+2524 has been acting erratically. Fixing the inverter is not the issue; the client is quite remote, and costs of diagnosis, parts and labor for these legacy units have gone up enough that the customer has already decided to replace the unit with a current product. From my perspective, the issues at hand revolve around how to safely and cleanly install a modern inverter into a system structured around old equipment. The specific question: Outback's FX series is the current product that most readily replaces the SW/SW+ series: it's also 120V in/out, and it has DC on the right and AC in/out on the left of a horizontally-laid out unit. However, several times in recent years I have heard disparaging comments, both here and in private conversations, about the purported drop in quality of Outback's inverters and controllers since Alpha bought them, but specifically because units, or parts of units, are now made in China, rather than in the U.S. What I want to know, please, are answers to two+ questions: 1) what's the real scoop? what is now made where? and 2) what actual experiences, specifically product failures, have any of you had that directly relate to changes directly attributable to overseas production? In other words, how much of this is real and how much is rumor? The bigger question (and this issue will come up frequently in the coming years): the SW+, like the SW before it, operates at 120V AC on both input and output. More and more modern battery-based inverters input and output split-phase 120/240V AC. When should I hesitate to replace a 120V legacy inverter with a 120/240V unit? Among larger whole-house single inverters, Outback's FX and VFX units operate at 120V, but these are older models. SMA's Sunny Island is 120V only, but this is generally considered a weakness in typical SI installations, and these expensive units don't adapt as well as replacements in older home systems. Magnum's MS4024 is available in either configuration. Outback's Radian and Schneider's XW and Conext SW are only available as 120-240 units. Here are the issues that I see: Don't do it if a backup generator is 120V AC-only. It will work, but is hard on the inverters, as all charging current will come in on one leg of the inverter's AC input. Fortunately, relatively few generators are 120V-only; pretty much just the smaller inverter-generators. Most cheaper gennies are 240V, and either run through a step-down balancing transformer (which would be taken out with the old 120V inverter) or run out of balance. Many better portable generators have a 120/120-240 switch, making it necessary to only replace a cable and plug to add a second hot conductor. Also, most older AC switchgear, such as QO403 inverter bypass switches, are set up for single pole breakers, and would thus require replacement, and reworking in general on the AC side to handle two hot input and output conductors. But once the jumper between the two hot legs is removed in the AC main panel, and two hots are connected, making the panel 120-240, what are the concerns that I might not have anticipated? Are there any hidden dangers, or situations where this change could cause problems, especially in AC distribution? Thanks in advance. I hope that I don't regret posting this late on a Friday... Allan -- Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swingjunkie at gmail.com Tue Feb 10 20:50:43 2015 From: swingjunkie at gmail.com (Carl Adams) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 20:50:43 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] tax credit carryover In-Reply-To: References: <005e01d04316$b7b924d0$272b6e70$@vtsolar.com> Message-ID: My CPA said that for residential customers, the credit could be carried forward until the year the credit expires (2016) Carl Adams NABCEP Ceritifed Solar Installer Sunrock Solar On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 12:54 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: > I am interested in the answer to your question, Kirk. If you find it > somewhere other than on this thread, can you please let me know. I have > heard 5 years, but not from a CPA. > > Thanks, > Kris > > On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 2:43 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: > >> What is the length of carryover for the Federal tax credit (individual)? >> It’s clear in the tax code a business has a one year carry back & 20 year >> carry forward. For the residential, it seems to indicate only a 1 year >> carry forward, but not explicitly stated. Thoughts? Thanks. >> >> >> >> *Kirk Herander* >> >> *VT Solar, LLC * >> >> *Proven PV provider since 1991* >> >> *www.vermontsolarnow.com * >> >> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >> >> NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant >> >> VT RE Incentive Program Partner >> >> 802.863.1202 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 864 Clam Falls Trail > Frederic, WI 54837 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daveclick at fsec.ucf.edu Tue Feb 10 22:12:07 2015 From: daveclick at fsec.ucf.edu (Dave Click) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 22:12:07 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 300W 72 cell micro inverters In-Reply-To: References: <0ED03AAF-59C9-45D3-80DB-D38D31EDE313@gmail.com> <1273087486.368372.1423426536207.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <983c8f6c63e827b39de73a7206cab93b.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> <011e01d04400$e22af820$a680e860$@com> <40f3070730ee3afe89f0da3ad9ee0891.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> <20150210140423.23C6628205F@homiemail-a82.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <54DAC887.6080305@fsec.ucf.edu> Regarding the clipping, which the power electronics guys would rather I=20 call "power limiting"... To be clear, "Longer 100% production around noon" (implied in that image=20 that this is somehow beneficial) means "this system could have produced=20 more energy but didn't because the inverter was too small." Assuming=20 similar efficiencies, a 300W micro-inverter clearly would have produced=20 more energy on that day than the 250W inverter. I imagine that what you=20 mean was that if you're locked into a certain ac limit here (either you=20 can only use a 250W micro, or maybe your service conductors limit your=20 ac rating) then yes, a higher dc/ac ratio may have more power limiting=20 but will produce more energy at the expense of your kWh / kWdc yield (a=20 consideration for some projects). Given that the ABB inverters have their highest efficiencies at the=20 higher end of their power outputs, which is not where PV modules=20 typically operate (unless you stick a 400W module on it), I'm curious=20 whether a typical 280W module would actually produce more energy over a=20 year with an Enphase 240W vs the ABB 300W in most locations. Over the=20 full Enphase power range it's more efficient than the ABB: At ~100W dc input, Enphase is at about 96.4% efficient and the ABB 300W=20 is at 95.8%. At ~250W input: Enphase 96.4%, ABB 96.1%. And yes, at 315W input: Enphase 76.2% steady-state, ABB 96.4%. It could go without saying (but I have momentum) that you should not=20 spend $2000 on a larger inverter(s) that will help your array produce=20 $200 more energy over its 25-year life. It's up to you to figure that=20 out given your site conditions and as noted in the last thread that=20 addressed this topic, weather data probably underestimates the benefit=20 due to its averaging out most short-term edge-of-cloud effects. Anyway, maybe C250s would meet the OP's needs and they're actually the=20 slightest bit more efficient than the standard 240W unit. That is, until=20 you add the transformer since the output is 220-248V L-N. That=20 presumably makes the ABB the efficiency winner, but hopefully the above=20 is still useful. Sorry, no personal experience with any of the=20 ABB/APS/C250 units. I probably should have opened with that to save you=20 some time. DKC On 2015/2/10 13:05, Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com wrote: > Hi: > > One thing to keep in mind with clipping, (module over sizing), is that=20 > if a system has 10%-15% off clipping, that will not affect total=20 > annual energy harvest and depending on dust and temperature conditions=20 > will likely even improve it. > > Heres' a graph which shows the energy harvest graphically for a 250W=20 > module with a 250W inverter and a and 300W module with a 250W inverter. > > > Please note the graph does not include any dust effects. To=20 > compensate for dust, the modules should always be of the order of 4%=20 > more powerful than the inverter, unless you plan on washing modules=20 > every month. > > Related to this, large commercial systems we have been supplying=20 > inverters to are 30-70% oversized as the sinking cost of modules makes=20 > the return on investment come out as maximized in that range of=20 > oversizing, > > JARMO > _________________________________________________________________________= ____________ > * > Jarmo Venalainen* | *Schneider Electric **| Xantrex Brand* |=20 > *CANADA* | *Sales Application Engineer* * > Phone:* +604-422-2528 | *Tech Support:* 800-670-0707 | *Mobile:*=20 > +604-505-0291 * > Email:* _jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com_=20 > |=20 > *Site:*_www.Xantrex.com_ | *Address:* 3700=20 > Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 > > > =09 > =09 > =09 > > > > > *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail > > > > From: Drake > To: RE-wrenches , > Date: 02/10/2015 06:51 AM > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 300W 72 cell micro inverters > Sent by: "RE-wrenches" > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > That would be at the 120% rating, so by rule of > thumb, OK. I have a ground mount that has a > ration of 1.15% with M-190s (figuring 199 W / > inverter). It has quite a bit of clipping in the > spring. It has optimized tilt for the location. A > ballasted roof mount with a 10 or 15 degree tilt > likely wouldn't have that issue. > > This system went in the spring of 2010, and has > only had one M-190 failure out of 24, amazingly enough. > > At 10:22 AM 2/9/2015, you wrote: > >What do you typically get out of a 300 watt panel for production when you > >are grid tied? I know in theory (STC) it is a 300 watt module but we > >rarely if ever (except in very cold weather)see near that for an=20 > output. I > >use (as a general, 77 degrees F) design parameter, 77% for overall power > >production output output. I'm sure you would get a little clipping, but I > >guess a significant amount would depend on a number of variables on the > >site, time of the year, weather conditions, etc. > > > >Daryl > > > > > > > Yeah....if you're OK with a not insignificant amount of clipping=20 > going on. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: RE-wrenches=20 > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > > > Behalf Of penobscotsolar at midmaine.com > > > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2015 2:33 PM > > > To: RE-wrenches > > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 300W 72 cell micro inverters > > > > > > Hey Jason, > > > The M-250's work well with LG 300 watt (60 cell) modules. > > > > > > Daryl > > > > > > > > >> Hi Jason, > > >> > > >> The Enphase C250 Microinverters for three-phase commercial > > >> applications does work with 72 cell modules. > > >> > > >> On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 12:58 PM, Jason Szumlanski < > > >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > >> > > >>> The ABB micros seem to be solid and easy to install. We have two > > >>> sites with them with no issues. Unfortunately, the monitoring system > > >>> sucks compared to Enphase and was far more difficult to set up. I > > >>> really wish Enphase would come up with a good 72 cell option because > > >>> we find ourselves competing with 300W modules occasionally, and > > >>> consumers (irrationally) jump to the conclusion that bigger is > > >>> better. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> [image: Logo-Sq-80.png] > > >>> > > >>> Jason Szumlanski > > >>> > > >>> Principal Solar Designer > > >>> > > >>> Florida Solar Design Group > > >>> > > >>> (239) 491-8010 office > > >>> > > >>> (239) 410-4985 mobile > > >>> > > >>> Authorized Sales Agent for Fafco Solar > > >>> > > >>> [image: Fafco-Solar-Enphase-Logo.png] > > >>> > > >>> License CVC56701 > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 3:15 PM, Bill Hennessy > > >>> wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> Hi folks-- > > >>>> > > >>>> We're planning a micro inverter install using 300W 72 cell modules > > >>>> for an area with a fair amount of shading. The choices we've found > > >>>> are ABB micro > > >>>> 0.3 or APS YC500A. > > >>>> Any stories to tell about either of these or another suggestion? > > >>>> > > >>>> Thanks for your time. > > >>>> > > >>>> Bill Hennessy > > >>>> Berks Solar, LLC > > >>>> 371 Centennial Rd > > >>>> Mertztown, PA 19539 > > >>>> > > >>>> o 610 682 4300 > > >>>> c 484 560 4666 > > >>>> NABCEP certified installer > > >>>> PA contractor #44411 > > >>>> www.berkssolar.com > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > >>>> > > >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > >>>> > > >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: > > >>>>=20 > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > >>>> > > >>>> List-Archive: > > >>>>=20 > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/mailli > > >>>> st.html > > >>>> > > >>>> List rules & etiquette: > > >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > >>>> > > >>>> Check out or update participant bios: > > >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>> > > >>> *Florida Solar Design Group is not an engineering or architectural > > >>> firm and acts only as a consultant and authorized independent sales > > >>> agent. > > >>> Any > > >>> advice or work product provided shall not be considered licensed > > >>> professional services provided under Florida Statute Chapters 471, > > >>> 481, or > > >>> 491.* > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > >>> > > >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > >>> > > >>> Change listserver email address & settings: > > >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > >>> > > >>> List-Archive: > > >>>=20 > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillis > > >>> t.html > > >>> > > >>> List rules & etiquette: > > >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > >>> > > >>> Check out or update participant bios: > > >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> > > >> Cordially, > > >> > > >> Nick Soleil > > >> *Enphase Energy* | Field Applications Engineer > > >> > > >> office 707-763-4784 <%28707%29%20763.%204784> x7267 cell 07-321-2937 > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> *Powering What=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2s Next*=C3=A2=E2=80=9E=C2=A2* = | *The Enphase Energy=20 > Management > > >> System > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 > > >> > > >> California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 > > >> > > >> Texas Master Electrician #284451 > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93Don=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2t get me wrong: I lo= ve nuclear energy! It=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2s > > >> just that I > > >> prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that=20 > there=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2s an > > >> enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It > > >> delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And > > >> it=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2s wireless!=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=9D > > >> > > >> - William McDonough > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) > > >> and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If=20 > you are > > >> not an intended recipient, you may not review, use, copy, disclose or > > >> distribute this message. If you received this message in error,=20 > please > > >> contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the=20 > original > > >> message. > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > >> > > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > >> > > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > >> > > >> List-Archive: > > >>=20 > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > > >> .html > > >> > > >> List rules & etiquette: > > >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > >> > > >> Check out or update participant bios: > > >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > > > List-Archive: > > >=20 > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht= ml > > > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > > > List-Archive: > > >=20 > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht= ml > > > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > >Change listserver email address & settings: > >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > >List-Archive: > >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.h= tml > > > >List rules & etiquette: > >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > >Check out or update participant bios: > >www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive:=20 > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht= ml > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41767 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Wed Feb 11 11:09:20 2015 From: Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com (Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 11:09:20 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 300W 72 cell micro inverters In-Reply-To: <54DAC887.6080305@fsec.ucf.edu> References: <0ED03AAF-59C9-45D3-80DB-D38D31EDE313@gmail.com> <1273087486.368372.1423426536207.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <983c8f6c63e827b39de73a7206cab93b.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> <011e01d04400$e22af820$a680e860$@com> <40f3070730ee3afe89f0da3ad9ee0891.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> <20150210140423.23C6628205F@homiemail-a82.g.dreamhost.com> <54DAC887.6080305@fsec.ucf.edu> Message-ID: Hi: It's all about cost versus benefit. The following goes through it in more detail. http://enphase.com/global/files/Enphase_White_Paper_Module_Rightsizing.pdf With large commercial systems, the best return on money invested is with 30% to 70% oversizing. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Dave Click To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 02/10/2015 07:12 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 300W 72 cell micro inverters Sent by: "RE-wrenches" Regarding the clipping, which the power electronics guys would rather I call "power limiting"... To be clear, "Longer 100% production around noon" (implied in that image that this is somehow beneficial) means "this system could have produced more energy but didn't because the inverter was too small." Assuming similar efficiencies, a 300W micro-inverter clearly would have produced more energy on that day than the 250W inverter. I imagine that what you mean was that if you're locked into a certain ac limit here (either you can only use a 250W micro, or maybe your service conductors limit your ac rating) then yes, a higher dc/ac ratio may have more power limiting but will produce more energy at the expense of your kWh / kWdc yield (a consideration for some projects). Given that the ABB inverters have their highest efficiencies at the higher end of their power outputs, which is not where PV modules typically operate (unless you stick a 400W module on it), I'm curious whether a typical 280W module would actually produce more energy over a year with an Enphase 240W vs the ABB 300W in most locations. Over the full Enphase power range it's more efficient than the ABB: At ~100W dc input, Enphase is at about 96.4% efficient and the ABB 300W is at 95.8%. At ~250W input: Enphase 96.4%, ABB 96.1%. And yes, at 315W input: Enphase 76.2% steady-state, ABB 96.4%. It could go without saying (but I have momentum) that you should not spend $2000 on a larger inverter(s) that will help your array produce $200 more energy over its 25-year life. It's up to you to figure that out given your site conditions and as noted in the last thread that addressed this topic, weather data probably underestimates the benefit due to its averaging out most short-term edge-of-cloud effects. Anyway, maybe C250s would meet the OP's needs and they're actually the slightest bit more efficient than the standard 240W unit. That is, until you add the transformer since the output is 220-248V L-N. That presumably makes the ABB the efficiency winner, but hopefully the above is still useful. Sorry, no personal experience with any of the ABB/APS/C250 units. I probably should have opened with that to save you some time. DKC On 2015/2/10 13:05, Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com wrote: Hi: One thing to keep in mind with clipping, (module over sizing), is that if a system has 10%-15% off clipping, that will not affect total annual energy harvest and depending on dust and temperature conditions will likely even improve it. Heres' a graph which shows the energy harvest graphically for a 250W module with a 250W inverter and a and 300W module with a 250W inverter. Please note the graph does not include any dust effects. To compensate for dust, the modules should always be of the order of 4% more powerful than the inverter, unless you plan on washing modules every month. Related to this, large commercial systems we have been supplying inverters to are 30-70% oversized as the sinking cost of modules makes the return on investment come out as maximized in that range of oversizing, JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Drake To: RE-wrenches , Date: 02/10/2015 06:51 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 300W 72 cell micro inverters Sent by: "RE-wrenches" That would be at the 120% rating, so by rule of thumb, OK. I have a ground mount that has a ration of 1.15% with M-190s (figuring 199 W / inverter). It has quite a bit of clipping in the spring. It has optimized tilt for the location. A ballasted roof mount with a 10 or 15 degree tilt likely wouldn't have that issue. This system went in the spring of 2010, and has only had one M-190 failure out of 24, amazingly enough. At 10:22 AM 2/9/2015, you wrote: >What do you typically get out of a 300 watt panel for production when you >are grid tied? I know in theory (STC) it is a 300 watt module but we >rarely if ever (except in very cold weather)see near that for an output. I >use (as a general, 77 degrees F) design parameter, 77% for overall power >production output output. I'm sure you would get a little clipping, but I >guess a significant amount would depend on a number of variables on the >site, time of the year, weather conditions, etc. > >Daryl > > > > Yeah....if you're OK with a not insignificant amount of clipping going on. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > > Behalf Of penobscotsolar at midmaine.com > > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2015 2:33 PM > > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 300W 72 cell micro inverters > > > > Hey Jason, > > The M-250's work well with LG 300 watt (60 cell) modules. > > > > Daryl > > > > > >> Hi Jason, > >> > >> The Enphase C250 Microinverters for three-phase commercial > >> applications does work with 72 cell modules. > >> > >> On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 12:58 PM, Jason Szumlanski < > >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> > >>> The ABB micros seem to be solid and easy to install. We have two > >>> sites with them with no issues. Unfortunately, the monitoring system > >>> sucks compared to Enphase and was far more difficult to set up. I > >>> really wish Enphase would come up with a good 72 cell option because > >>> we find ourselves competing with 300W modules occasionally, and > >>> consumers (irrationally) jump to the conclusion that bigger is > >>> better. > >>> > >>> > >>> [image: Logo-Sq-80.png] > >>> > >>> Jason Szumlanski > >>> > >>> Principal Solar Designer > >>> > >>> Florida Solar Design Group > >>> > >>> (239) 491-8010 office > >>> > >>> (239) 410-4985 mobile > >>> > >>> Authorized Sales Agent for Fafco Solar > >>> > >>> [image: Fafco-Solar-Enphase-Logo.png] > >>> > >>> License CVC56701 > >>> > >>> > >>> On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 3:15 PM, Bill Hennessy > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Hi folks-- > >>>> > >>>> We're planning a micro inverter install using 300W 72 cell modules > >>>> for an area with a fair amount of shading. The choices we've found > >>>> are ABB micro > >>>> 0.3 or APS YC500A. > >>>> Any stories to tell about either of these or another suggestion? > >>>> > >>>> Thanks for your time. > >>>> > >>>> Bill Hennessy > >>>> Berks Solar, LLC > >>>> 371 Centennial Rd > >>>> Mertztown, PA 19539 > >>>> > >>>> o 610 682 4300 > >>>> c 484 560 4666 > >>>> NABCEP certified installer > >>>> PA contractor #44411 > >>>> www.berkssolar.com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >>>> > >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >>>> > >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: > >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >>>> > >>>> List-Archive: > >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/mailli > >>>> st.html > >>>> > >>>> List rules & etiquette: > >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >>>> > >>>> Check out or update participant bios: > >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> *Florida Solar Design Group is not an engineering or architectural > >>> firm and acts only as a consultant and authorized independent sales > >>> agent. > >>> Any > >>> advice or work product provided shall not be considered licensed > >>> professional services provided under Florida Statute Chapters 471, > >>> 481, or > >>> 491.* > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >>> > >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> Change listserver email address & settings: > >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> List-Archive: > >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillis > >>> t.html > >>> > >>> List rules & etiquette: > >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >>> > >>> Check out or update participant bios: > >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> Cordially, > >> > >> Nick Soleil > >> *Enphase Energy* | Field Applications Engineer > >> > >> office 707-763-4784 <%28707%29%20763.%204784> x7267 cell 07-321-2937 > >> > >> > >> > >> *Powering What’s Next*â„¢* | *The Enphase Energy Management > >> System > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 > >> > >> California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 > >> > >> Texas Master Electrician #284451 > >> > >> > >> > >> “Don’t get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It’s > >> just that I > >> prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there’s an > >> enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It > >> delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And > >> it’s wireless!” > >> > >> - William McDonough > >> > >> > >> > >> This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) > >> and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are > >> not an intended recipient, you may not review, use, copy, disclose or > >> distribute this message. If you received this message in error, please > >> contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original > >> message. > >> > > _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List-Archive: > >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > >> .html > >> > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41767 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Feb 11 13:33:54 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 13:33:54 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 300W 72 cell micro inverters In-Reply-To: References: <0ED03AAF-59C9-45D3-80DB-D38D31EDE313@gmail.com> <1273087486.368372.1423426536207.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <983c8f6c63e827b39de73a7206cab93b.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> <011e01d04400$e22af820$a680e860$@com> <40f3070730ee3afe89f0da3ad9ee0891.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> <20150210140423.23C6628205F@homiemail-a82.g.dreamhost.com> <54DAC887.6080305@fsec.ucf.edu> Message-ID: In the heat of SWFL we rarely see clipping with 255W modules on M215's and almost never with 270W modules. I attached a graph of my 10.2kWdc system that should be cranking here in April (on week of April 2014 shown). This is 40 modules at 255W on M215's. I don't see any significant clipping to speak of. In fact, the peak watts shows 8,875W on one day, which is 222W/microinverter (less than the 225 actual limit). I understand that some may have over-performed and some under-performed at times, but the clipping would have to be very minimal and for a short period. I agree that is is all a cost/benefit analysis. I'm still explaining oversizing to inspectors an plan reviewers - consumers are so far behind that learning curve at this point. >From a marketing standpoint, oversizing makes a lot of sense since pricing is done on a $/Wdc basis, and comparisons are made versus competition on that same basis. If I'm offering a 270W/M250 system and my competitor offers a 270W/M215 system, I am at a disadvantage since we are both offering 270W of rated power for price comparison purposes. We probably won't shift to the M250 until 60 cell 290W+ modules become widely available and cheap or some other competitive pressure pushes us in that direction. That's when I think it will be a real cost-benefit win for the consumer (here at least). Sub-optimal tilt/orientation is another obvious reason to oversize. My next challenge will be explaining to inspectors the 280W module on the M215 since the spec sheet lists recommended power up to 270W only. I haven't figured that out (or asked) why that figure is listed by Enphase when white papers by the manufacturer suggest higher watt modules may result in higher energy harvest, and are definitely supported and encouraged. (Nick - care to weigh in on that?) [image: Inline image 1] Jason Szumlanski On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 11:09 AM, wrote: > Hi: > > It's all about cost versus benefit. The following goes through it in more > detail. > > http://enphase.com/global/files/Enphase_White_Paper_Module_Rightsizing.pdf > > With large commercial systems, the best return on money invested is with > 30% to 70% oversizing. > > JARMO > > _____________________________________________________________________________________ > > * Jarmo Venalainen* | * Schneider Electric ** | Xantrex Brand* | > *CANADA* | *Sales Application Engineer* > * Phone:* +604-422-2528 | *Tech Support:* 800-670-0707 | *Mobile:* > +604-505-0291 > * Email:* *jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com* > | *Site:** www.Xantrex.com* > | *Address:* 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC > V5G4M1 > > > > > > *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail > > > > From: Dave Click To: > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 02/10/2015 07:12 PM Subject: Re: > [RE-wrenches] 300W 72 cell micro inverters Sent by: "RE-wrenches" < > re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org> > ------------------------------ > > > > Regarding the clipping, which the power electronics guys would rather I > call "power limiting"... > > To be clear, "Longer 100% production around noon" (implied in that image > that this is somehow beneficial) means "this system could have produced > more energy but didn't because the inverter was too small." Assuming > similar efficiencies, a 300W micro-inverter clearly would have produced > more energy on that day than the 250W inverter. I imagine that what you > mean was that if you're locked into a certain ac limit here (either you can > only use a 250W micro, or maybe your service conductors limit your ac > rating) then yes, a higher dc/ac ratio may have more power limiting but > will produce more energy at the expense of your kWh / kWdc yield (a > consideration for some projects). > > Given that the ABB inverters have their highest efficiencies at the higher > end of their power outputs, which is not where PV modules typically operate > (unless you stick a 400W module on it), I'm curious whether a typical 280W > module would actually produce more energy over a year with an Enphase 240W > vs the ABB 300W in most locations. Over the full Enphase power range it's > more efficient than the ABB: > > At ~100W dc input, Enphase is at about 96.4% efficient and the ABB 300W is > at 95.8%. > At ~250W input: Enphase 96.4%, ABB 96.1%. > And yes, at 315W input: Enphase 76.2% steady-state, ABB 96.4%. > > It could go without saying (but I have momentum) that you should not spend > $2000 on a larger inverter(s) that will help your array produce $200 more > energy over its 25-year life. It's up to you to figure that out given your > site conditions and as noted in the last thread that addressed this topic, > weather data probably underestimates the benefit due to its averaging out > most short-term edge-of-cloud effects. > > Anyway, maybe C250s would meet the OP's needs and they're actually the > slightest bit more efficient than the standard 240W unit. That is, until > you add the transformer since the output is 220-248V L-N. That presumably > makes the ABB the efficiency winner, but hopefully the above is still > useful. Sorry, no personal experience with any of the ABB/APS/C250 units. I > probably should have opened with that to save you some time. > > DKC > > On 2015/2/10 13:05, *Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com* > wrote: > Hi: > > One thing to keep in mind with clipping, (module over sizing), is that if > a system has 10%-15% off clipping, that will not affect total annual energy > harvest and depending on dust and temperature conditions will likely even > improve it. > > Heres' a graph which shows the energy harvest graphically for a 250W > module with a 250W inverter and a and 300W module with a 250W inverter. > > > Please note the graph does not include any dust effects. To compensate > for dust, the modules should always be of the order of 4% more powerful > than the inverter, unless you plan on washing modules every month. > > Related to this, large commercial systems we have been supplying inverters > to are 30-70% oversized as the sinking cost of modules makes the return on > investment come out as maximized in that range of oversizing, > > JARMO > > _____________________________________________________________________________________ > > * Jarmo Venalainen* | * Schneider Electric ** | Xantrex Brand* | > *CANADA* | *Sales Application Engineer* > * Phone:* +604-422-2528 | *Tech Support:* 800-670-0707 | *Mobile:* > +604-505-0291 > * Email:* *jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com* > | *Site:** www.Xantrex.com* > | *Address:* 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC > V5G4M1 > > > > *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail > > > From: Drake ** > To: RE-wrenches > ** , > Date: 02/10/2015 06:51 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 300W 72 cell micro > inverters Sent by: "RE-wrenches" > ** > > > ------------------------------ > > > > That would be at the 120% rating, so by rule of > thumb, OK. I have a ground mount that has a > ration of 1.15% with M-190s (figuring 199 W / > inverter). It has quite a bit of clipping in the > spring. It has optimized tilt for the location. A > ballasted roof mount with a 10 or 15 degree tilt > likely wouldn't have that issue. > > This system went in the spring of 2010, and has > only had one M-190 failure out of 24, amazingly enough. > > At 10:22 AM 2/9/2015, you wrote: > >What do you typically get out of a 300 watt panel for production when you > >are grid tied? I know in theory (STC) it is a 300 watt module but we > >rarely if ever (except in very cold weather)see near that for an output. I > >use (as a general, 77 degrees F) design parameter, 77% for overall power > >production output output. I'm sure you would get a little clipping, but I > >guess a significant amount would depend on a number of variables on the > >site, time of the year, weather conditions, etc. > > > >Daryl > > > > > > > Yeah....if you're OK with a not insignificant amount of clipping going > on. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: RE-wrenches [*mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org* > ] On > > > Behalf Of *penobscotsolar at midmaine.com* > > > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2015 2:33 PM > > > To: RE-wrenches > > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 300W 72 cell micro inverters > > > > > > Hey Jason, > > > The M-250's work well with LG 300 watt (60 cell) modules. > > > > > > Daryl > > > > > > > > >> Hi Jason, > > >> > > >> The Enphase C250 Microinverters for three-phase commercial > > >> applications does work with 72 cell modules. > > >> > > >> On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 12:58 PM, Jason Szumlanski < > > >> *jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com* > > wrote: > > >> > > >>> The ABB micros seem to be solid and easy to install. We have two > > >>> sites with them with no issues. Unfortunately, the monitoring system > > >>> sucks compared to Enphase and was far more difficult to set up. I > > >>> really wish Enphase would come up with a good 72 cell option because > > >>> we find ourselves competing with 300W modules occasionally, and > > >>> consumers (irrationally) jump to the conclusion that bigger is > > >>> better. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> [image: Logo-Sq-80.png] > > >>> > > >>> Jason Szumlanski > > >>> > > >>> Principal Solar Designer > > >>> > > >>> Florida Solar Design Group > > >>> > > >>> (239) 491-8010 office > > >>> > > >>> (239) 410-4985 mobile > > >>> > > >>> Authorized Sales Agent for Fafco Solar > > >>> > > >>> [image: Fafco-Solar-Enphase-Logo.png] > > >>> > > >>> License CVC56701 > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 3:15 PM, Bill Hennessy > ** > > >>> wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> Hi folks-- > > >>>> > > >>>> We're planning a micro inverter install using 300W 72 cell modules > > >>>> for an area with a fair amount of shading. The choices we've found > > >>>> are ABB micro > > >>>> 0.3 or APS YC500A. > > >>>> Any stories to tell about either of these or another suggestion? > > >>>> > > >>>> Thanks for your time. > > >>>> > > >>>> Bill Hennessy > > >>>> Berks Solar, LLC > > >>>> 371 Centennial Rd > > >>>> Mertztown, PA 19539 > > >>>> > > >>>> o 610 682 4300 > > >>>> c 484 560 4666 > > >>>> NABCEP certified installer > > >>>> PA contractor #44411 > > >>>> *www.berkssolar.com* > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > >>>> > > >>>> List Address: *RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org* > > > >>>> > > >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: > > >>>> > *http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org* > > > >>>> > > >>>> List-Archive: > > >>>> > *http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/mailli* > > > >>>> st.html > > >>>> > > >>>> List rules & etiquette: > > >>>> *www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm* > > > >>>> > > >>>> Check out or update participant bios: > > >>>> *www.members.re-wrenches.org* > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>> > > >>> *Florida Solar Design Group is not an engineering or architectural > > >>> firm and acts only as a consultant and authorized independent sales > > >>> agent. > > >>> Any > > >>> advice or work product provided shall not be considered licensed > > >>> professional services provided under Florida Statute Chapters 471, > > >>> 481, or > > >>> 491.* > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > >>> > > >>> List Address: *RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org* > > > >>> > > >>> Change listserver email address & settings: > > >>> > *http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org* > > > >>> > > >>> List-Archive: > > >>> > *http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillis* > > > >>> t.html > > >>> > > >>> List rules & etiquette: > > >>> *www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm* > > > >>> > > >>> Check out or update participant bios: > > >>> *www.members.re-wrenches.org* > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> > > >> Cordially, > > >> > > >> Nick Soleil > > >> *Enphase Energy* | Field Applications Engineer > > >> > > >> office 707-763-4784 <%28707%29%20763.%204784> x7267 cell 07-321-2937 > > >> > > >> <*http://enphase.com/* > > > >> > > >> *Powering What’s Next*â„¢* | *The Enphase Energy Management > > >> System > > >> <*http://ow.ly/HbVS3* > < > *http://community.enphaseenergy.com/* > > > > >> <*http://facebook.com/EnphaseEnergy* > > > > >> <*http://twitter.com/Enphase* > > > >> <*http://linkedin.com/company/enphase-energy* > > > > >> > > >> > > >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 > > >> > > >> California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 > > >> > > >> Texas Master Electrician #284451 > > >> > > >> ** > > >> > > >> “Don’t get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It’s > > >> just that I > > >> prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there’s > an > > >> enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It > > >> delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And > > >> it’s wireless!†> > >> > > >> - William McDonough > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) > > >> and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are > > >> not an intended recipient, you may not review, use, copy, disclose or > > >> distribute this message. 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Any advice or work product provided shall not be considered licensed professional services provided under Florida Statute Chapters 471, 481, or 491.* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41767 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 79408 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Feb 11 19:44:54 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (william at millersolar.com) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 16:44:54 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island Failure and various related issues Message-ID: <026001d0465d$1eac3710$5c04a530$@millersolar.com> Friends: I have an existing service issue with a Sunny Island 4548 system shutting down unexpectedly. The system is off-grid with generator, two inverters, DC coupled charging. The batteries are a set of used Full River VRLA L-16s (3 strings of 8). We tested the at-rest battery voltages and they were good and consistent. The system was running fine and then experienced some generator failures. The inverters went into battery protect mode twice. We found and repaired the generator problem. A few days later, about 10 minutes after I assured the owner that all was well, the system shut down again. We responded and found the generator was willing and able to start. The reason the system shut down is not apparent. Here is what I have been told: 1. The system reports the temp sensor lead has been unplugged. There is a temp sensor and it appears to be connected and in good condition. SMA repeatedly points to this as a contributory cause but I have trouble figuring out how lack of a temp sensor cable could cause other than inefficient charging. We will replace the temp sensor tomorrow. 2. The system does not have a battery shunt. I am told this is also a serious lack because the inverter "does not know what is going on with the batteries". I always thought the PV charge control and AC charge systems operated independently and the inverter responded solely to battery voltage. Maybe not so with the Sunny Island? Could the inverter shut down unexpectedly to protect batteries, even though voltage and SOC were at a reasonable level at the time? The system does report marginal SOH. We will install a shunt tomorrow. 3. Does anyone have any experience resolving mysterious shut-downs of Sunny Island systems and have any insight they may provide? 4. We download and read the SD data files in-house. We have developed some crude Excel macros that we use to paste the records into Excel and to hide and reveal selected columns. We find this tool to be very handy. I know that SMA uses an Excel tool as well. I have been meaning to ask if I may have a copy but keep forgetting. Do any of you analyze Sunny Island data files in-house? Do you have any tools or procedures that you could share or describe? 5. The Sunny Island line is significantly lacking in BOS equipment. They do not provide any AC or DC OPCD equipment nor do they provide any type of AC bypass. After we realized this we proceeded to provide an Outback FX1000 cabinet with every Sunny Island install, neatly mated to the system with gutter infrastructure. We provide Square D panel boards with custom interlock hardware for AC OPCD switching and bypassing. The SMA phone support technicians do not seem to understand the concepts behind this application and are automatically dismissive of the outboard gear and blame it for all problems. Below is a link to another system we had to work with SMA tech support on, and that we were never quite able to convince them that we knew what we were doing: http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/Portfolio/Commercial/RM/R_M.html 6. I have had a difficult time working with most of the phone support technicians at SMA. From the very beginning most of them have presented an attitude of arrogance and condescension. I have had the quality of my work called into question without any evidence to support that position. I have experienced long delays in receiving replies. I have seen technicians present incomplete diagnoses. Fortunately Scoey Wildey of SMA was in town while we were rebuilding a commercial Sunny Boy system and he came and inspected our work and could vouch for it. I have found one highly professional, competent person at SMA who used to be in tech support who will take my calls. I'd like to give him credit but I don't want to share him. Also, Steve Jefferson and Scoey Wildey have intervened on my behalf on a few occasions and I am grateful to them. 7. I am wondering if anyone else has had a similar experience with SMA tech support. If it is not just me, maybe several of us could contact SMA management and ask that they augment the training of the phone support crew. I am sure they are capable of improving on their skills, both technical and interpersonal. We all know people in the industry that stand above the rest in professional demeanor, Rick Cullen, for example. I try to emulate his always-available, always-helpful, open-minded approach to dealing with people and challenges. We should expect this of all manufacturer's representatives. Thanks to any of you who are willing to review my many questions and offer suggestions or comments. Sincerely, William Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Feb 11 23:40:04 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 21:40:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island Failure and various related issues In-Reply-To: <026001d0465d$1eac3710$5c04a530$@millersolar.com> References: <026001d0465d$1eac3710$5c04a530$@millersolar.com> Message-ID: <54DC2EA4.4010602@solarray.com> Hi William; Yes I'm getting too old to let manufacturers off the hook anymore. They just don't pay me enough (wink, maybe if I ever was compensated for service calls?) Unfortunately I have had the exact same experience with SMA's phone tech support. I was having setup issues that were not covered in the manual and they acted like I was an idiot. They walked me through it and I got it working , and then after I asked "where does it say that in the manual?" I then recited several verses from their manual that bolstered my faulty reasoning. He finally mellowed out a bit, realized I was somewhat knowledgable, and admitted it wasn't in the manual, and that they needed to update it. (hmmm...) Ultimately, I can deal with the attitude as long as they answer the phone and can fix the problem; it's better than someone being super nice but just wasting your time. Of course both fixing the problem and being friendly would be even better. Attention SMA tech support: William, I, and many on this list were installing off grid systems when you were still fudging in your diapers. We read the manual first, and only call when we still can't figure it out. We're the ones out there in the woods trying to make SMA equipment work while the nervous customer looks over our shoulder. Respect. Thanks, R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 2/11/2015 5:44 PM, william at millersolar.com wrote: > > Friends: > > 6.I have had a difficult time working with most of the phone support > technicians at SMA. From the very beginning most of them have > presented an attitude of arrogance and condescension. I have had the > quality of my work called into question without any evidence to > support that position. I have experienced long delays in receiving > replies. I have seen technicians present incomplete diagnoses. > Fortunately Scoey Wildey of SMA was in town while we were rebuilding a > commercial Sunny Boy system and he came and inspected our work and > could vouch for it. I have found one highly professional, competent > person at SMA who used to be in tech support who will take my calls. > I’d like to give him credit but I don’t want to share him. Also, Steve > Jefferson and Scoey Wildey have intervened on my behalf on a few > occasions and I am grateful to them. > > 7.I am wondering if anyone else has had a similar experience with SMA > tech support. If it is not just me, maybe several of us could contact > SMA management and ask that they augment the training of the phone > support crew. I am sure they are capable of improving on their > skills, both technical and interpersonal. We all know people in the > industry that stand above the rest in professional demeanor, Rick > Cullen, for example. I try to emulate his always-available, > always-helpful, open-minded approach to dealing with people and > challenges. We should expect this of all manufacturer’s representatives. > > Thanks to any of you who are willing to review my many questions and > offer suggestions or comments. > > Sincerely, > > William Miller > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Feb 12 07:45:09 2015 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 05:45:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island Failure and various related issues In-Reply-To: <54DC2EA4.4010602@solarray.com> References: <026001d0465d$1eac3710$5c04a530$@millersolar.com> <54DC2EA4.4010602@solarray.com> Message-ID: Hi William, I want to talk directly to your problem at hand. I think installing the shunt and properly calibrating it, will fix this system . In a DC coupled system with a Sunny Island, it is imperative that you use a shunt, unless you are using the Midnite charge controllers with the communications to accurately report all charging (or the non-UL listed SMA charge controllers). There are so many functions and calculations that the Sunny Island performs that needs accurate SOC calculations. All of the shutdowns that you are seeing are resulting from faulty SOC measurements. I wouldn't believe the reported state of health either, because it is using the faulty SOC measurements. Don't believe state of health until you have a couple of months of operation with the shunt. *Right now, with the system as is, it isn't accounting for the charge coming from the charge controller(s)*. It is shutting down because its only accounting for AC power processed through the Sunny Island. I once had a Sunny Island system with an improperly calibrated shunt and it acted just as you describe, strange shutdowns, bad SOC output etc. After I got it calibrated, it has worked flawlessly. Take your time when you are calibrating the shunt. Follow the (odd) directions perfectly and it should work. Verify Sunny Island readings match your DC clamp meter and you should be good. As far as SMA not having a BOS solution, its true, and you can tell that it is not in their expertise. I like the Midnite cabinets that are made for the Sunny Island. They are pricey but look sharp and are functional. And yes, the Sunny Island documentation is very strange and incomplete and could use a serious revision. Some of the information must be lost in translation. Good Luck! On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 9:40 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > Hi William; > > Yes I'm getting too old to let manufacturers off the hook anymore. They > just don't pay me enough (wink, maybe if I ever was compensated for service > calls?) > Unfortunately I have had the exact same experience with SMA's phone tech > support. I was having setup issues that were not covered in the manual and > they acted like I was an idiot. They walked me through it and I got it > working , and then after I asked "where does it say that in the manual?" I > then recited several verses from their manual that bolstered my faulty > reasoning. He finally mellowed out a bit, realized I was somewhat > knowledgable, and admitted it wasn't in the manual, and that they needed to > update it. (hmmm...) > Ultimately, I can deal with the attitude as long as they answer the phone > and can fix the problem; it's better than someone being super nice but just > wasting your time. Of course both fixing the problem and being friendly > would be even better. > > Attention SMA tech support: William, I, and many on this list were > installing off grid systems when you were still fudging in your diapers. > We read the manual first, and only call when we still can't figure it out. > We're the ones out there in the woods trying to make SMA equipment work > while the nervous customer looks over our shoulder. > Respect. > > Thanks, > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 > > On 2/11/2015 5:44 PM, william at millersolar.com wrote: > > Friends: > > 6. I have had a difficult time working with most of the phone support > technicians at SMA. From the very beginning most of them have presented an > attitude of arrogance and condescension. I have had the quality of my work > called into question without any evidence to support that position. I have > experienced long delays in receiving replies. I have seen technicians > present incomplete diagnoses. Fortunately Scoey Wildey of SMA was in town > while we were rebuilding a commercial Sunny Boy system and he came and > inspected our work and could vouch for it. I have found one highly > professional, competent person at SMA who used to be in tech support who > will take my calls. I’d like to give him credit but I don’t want to share > him. Also, Steve Jefferson and Scoey Wildey have intervened on my behalf > on a few occasions and I am grateful to them. > > 7. I am wondering if anyone else has had a similar experience with SMA > tech support. If it is not just me, maybe several of us could contact SMA > management and ask that they augment the training of the phone support > crew. I am sure they are capable of improving on their skills, both > technical and interpersonal. We all know people in the industry that stand > above the rest in professional demeanor, Rick Cullen, for example. I try > to emulate his always-available, always-helpful, open-minded approach to > dealing with people and challenges. We should expect this of all > manufacturer’s representatives. > > > > Thanks to any of you who are willing to review my many questions and offer > suggestions or comments. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > William Miller > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Feb 12 07:52:28 2015 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 05:52:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback AGS & eq Message-ID: Hello wrenches, I have a question about how the global equalization function works with the Auto Gen Start on the Mate-2. Is there a way to set up a global equalization that will ensure that the generator will shutdown after the equalization has occurred? If so, how do you set it up? Thanks in advance -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Feb 12 10:53:59 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 07:53:59 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island Failure and various related issues In-Reply-To: References: <026001d0465d$1eac3710$5c04a530$@millersolar.com> <54DC2EA4.4010602@solarray.com> Message-ID: Mac > On Feb 12, 2015, at 4:45 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Hi William, > > I want to talk directly to your problem at hand. I think installing the shunt and properly calibrating it, will fix this system . In a DC coupled system with a Sunny Island, it is imperative that you use a shunt, unless you are using the Midnite charge controllers with the communications to accurately report all charging (or the non-UL listed SMA charge controllers). There are so many functions and calculations that the Sunny Island performs that needs accurate SOC calculations. All of the shutdowns that you are seeing are resulting from faulty SOC measurements. I wouldn't believe the reported state of health either, because it is using the faulty SOC measurements. Don't believe state of health until you have a couple of months of operation with the shunt. > > Right now, with the system as is, it isn't accounting for the charge coming from the charge controller(s). It is shutting down because its only accounting for AC power processed through the Sunny Island. I once had a Sunny Island system with an improperly calibrated shunt and it acted just as you describe, strange shutdowns, bad SOC output etc. After I got it calibrated, it has worked flawlessly. > > Take your time when you are calibrating the shunt. Follow the (odd) directions perfectly and it should work. Verify Sunny Island readings match your DC clamp meter and you should be good. > > As far as SMA not having a BOS solution, its true, and you can tell that it is not in their expertise. I like the Midnite cabinets that are made for the Sunny Island. They are pricey but look sharp and are functional. > > And yes, the Sunny Island documentation is very strange and incomplete and could use a serious revision. Some of the information must be lost in translation. > > Good Luck! > >> On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 9:40 PM, Ray Walters wrote: >> Hi William; >> >> Yes I'm getting too old to let manufacturers off the hook anymore. They just don't pay me enough (wink, maybe if I ever was compensated for service calls?) >> Unfortunately I have had the exact same experience with SMA's phone tech support. I was having setup issues that were not covered in the manual and they acted like I was an idiot. They walked me through it and I got it working , and then after I asked "where does it say that in the manual?" I then recited several verses from their manual that bolstered my faulty reasoning. He finally mellowed out a bit, realized I was somewhat knowledgable, and admitted it wasn't in the manual, and that they needed to update it. (hmmm...) >> Ultimately, I can deal with the attitude as long as they answer the phone and can fix the problem; it's better than someone being super nice but just wasting your time. Of course both fixing the problem and being friendly would be even better. >> >> Attention SMA tech support: William, I, and many on this list were installing off grid systems when you were still fudging in your diapers. We read the manual first, and only call when we still can't figure it out. We're the ones out there in the woods trying to make SMA equipment work while the nervous customer looks over our shoulder. >> Respect. >> >> Thanks, >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> On 2/11/2015 5:44 PM, william at millersolar.com wrote: >>> Friends: >>> >>> 6. I have had a difficult time working with most of the phone support technicians at SMA. From the very beginning most of them have presented an attitude of arrogance and condescension. I have had the quality of my work called into question without any evidence to support that position. I have experienced long delays in receiving replies. I have seen technicians present incomplete diagnoses. Fortunately Scoey Wildey of SMA was in town while we were rebuilding a commercial Sunny Boy system and he came and inspected our work and could vouch for it. I have found one highly professional, competent person at SMA who used to be in tech support who will take my calls. I’d like to give him credit but I don’t want to share him. Also, Steve Jefferson and Scoey Wildey have intervened on my behalf on a few occasions and I am grateful to them. >>> >>> 7. I am wondering if anyone else has had a similar experience with SMA tech support. If it is not just me, maybe several of us could contact SMA management and ask that they augment the training of the phone support crew. I am sure they are capable of improving on their skills, both technical and interpersonal. We all know people in the industry that stand above the rest in professional demeanor, Rick Cullen, for example. I try to emulate his always-available, always-helpful, open-minded approach to dealing with people and challenges. We should expect this of all manufacturer’s representatives. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks to any of you who are willing to review my many questions and offer suggestions or comments. >>> >>> >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> >>> >>> William Miller >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Feb 12 10:58:52 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 07:58:52 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island Failure and various related issues In-Reply-To: References: <026001d0465d$1eac3710$5c04a530$@millersolar.com> <54DC2EA4.4010602@solarray.com> Message-ID: Mac: Thanks for the advice. We will install the shunt today. A few more questions: 1. Will the Outback 50ma shunt be compatible. My research indicates the value is correct. 2. DC clamps are notoriously inaccurate, particularly at low amperages. Will this be a problem, or is shorting the leads adequate? Thanks again. William Miller PS: We looked at the Midnite cabinets but they put the OPCD too far from the batteries. William > On Feb 12, 2015, at 4:45 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Hi William, > > I want to talk directly to your problem at hand. I think installing the shunt and properly calibrating it, will fix this system . In a DC coupled system with a Sunny Island, it is imperative that you use a shunt, unless you are using the Midnite charge controllers with the communications to accurately report all charging (or the non-UL listed SMA charge controllers). There are so many functions and calculations that the Sunny Island performs that needs accurate SOC calculations. All of the shutdowns that you are seeing are resulting from faulty SOC measurements. I wouldn't believe the reported state of health either, because it is using the faulty SOC measurements. Don't believe state of health until you have a couple of months of operation with the shunt. > > Right now, with the system as is, it isn't accounting for the charge coming from the charge controller(s). It is shutting down because its only accounting for AC power processed through the Sunny Island. I once had a Sunny Island system with an improperly calibrated shunt and it acted just as you describe, strange shutdowns, bad SOC output etc. After I got it calibrated, it has worked flawlessly. > > Take your time when you are calibrating the shunt. Follow the (odd) directions perfectly and it should work. Verify Sunny Island readings match your DC clamp meter and you should be good. > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Feb 12 09:52:59 2015 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 06:52:59 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Alarm Message-ID: <56fed2952c161c67a83d612feabf9d9a.squirrel@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> We are looking for an audible alarm that will not drive the pets crazy if it stays on for hours when no one is home. At present, only a red indicator light goes on when the grid is down. It would need to run off 120 VAC. Does anyone have any suggestions? Thanks, Drake From dana at solarwork.com Thu Feb 12 11:31:48 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 09:31:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Alarm In-Reply-To: <56fed2952c161c67a83d612feabf9d9a.squirrel@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> References: <56fed2952c161c67a83d612feabf9d9a.squirrel@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <003a01d046e1$66a21ab0$33e65010$@com> Try your local alarm company? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 - No FAX Line "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2015 7:53 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Alarm We are looking for an audible alarm that will not drive the pets crazy if it stays on for hours when no one is home. At present, only a red indicator light goes on when the grid is down. It would need to run off 120 VAC. Does anyone have any suggestions? Thanks, Drake _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From jay at asis.com Thu Feb 12 11:54:29 2015 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 08:54:29 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback AGS & eq In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8E74E460-1221-489C-A413-289896722836@asis.com> Hi Mac I don't think there is a global eq function. Eq continues to be manual on inverters. Gen to manual on Initiate EQ Gen to auto Done Jay Peltz power. > On Feb 12, 2015, at 4:52 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Hello wrenches, > > I have a question about how the global equalization function works with the Auto Gen Start on the Mate-2. > > Is there a way to set up a global equalization that will ensure that the generator will shutdown after the equalization has occurred? If so, how do you set it up? > > Thanks in advance > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Feb 12 12:11:17 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 10:11:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Alarm In-Reply-To: <56fed2952c161c67a83d612feabf9d9a.squirrel@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> References: <56fed2952c161c67a83d612feabf9d9a.squirrel@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <54DCDEB5.8030204@solarray.com> We looked into this recently as well, and didn't find any good options that didn't involve us making a custom gizmo of some type. The closest off the shelf product I found was just an AC smoke alarm that chirps when it loses AC. I think some of the little UPS boxes also have an alarm when they lose AC input. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 2/12/2015 7:52 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > We are looking for an audible alarm that will not drive the pets crazy if > it stays on for hours when no one is home. At present, only a red indicator > light goes on when the grid is down. > > It would need to run off 120 VAC. Does anyone have any suggestions? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Feb 12 12:11:43 2015 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 10:11:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island Failure and various related issues In-Reply-To: References: <026001d0465d$1eac3710$5c04a530$@millersolar.com> <54DC2EA4.4010602@solarray.com> Message-ID: Hi William, Yes the Outback shunt should be fine for this application. See page 72 here for the calibration: http://files.sma.de/dl/15216/SI4548-6048-US-BE-en-20.pdf As far as verifying with your clamp meter, I'd say if you can verify within 15% (remember to check polarity) then it is properly calibrated. It should do a better job than your clamp meter, but that will help make sure you are close. Check parameter 120.06 TotBatCur to see what the Sunny Island thinks the battery current is (in older versions of firmware it may be elsewhere). I have found that with my fluke DC clamp meter (don't know the model off the top of my head), I am easily within 5% when the current is around 20ADC. Good Luck On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 8:58 AM, William Miller wrote: > Mac: > > Thanks for the advice. We will install the shunt today. A few more > questions: > > 1. Will the Outback 50ma shunt be compatible. My research indicates the > value is correct. > > 2. DC clamps are notoriously inaccurate, particularly at low amperages. > Will this be a problem, or is shorting the leads adequate? > > Thanks again. > > William Miller > > PS: We looked at the Midnite cabinets but they put the OPCD too far from > the batteries. > > William > > > > On Feb 12, 2015, at 4:45 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Hi William, > > I want to talk directly to your problem at hand. I think installing the > shunt and properly calibrating it, will fix this system . In a DC coupled > system with a Sunny Island, it is imperative that you use a shunt, unless > you are using the Midnite charge controllers with the communications to > accurately report all charging (or the non-UL listed SMA charge > controllers). There are so many functions and calculations that the Sunny > Island performs that needs accurate SOC calculations. All of the shutdowns > that you are seeing are resulting from faulty SOC measurements. I wouldn't > believe the reported state of health either, because it is using the faulty > SOC measurements. Don't believe state of health until you have a couple of > months of operation with the shunt. > > *Right now, with the system as is, it isn't accounting for the charge > coming from the charge controller(s)*. It is shutting down because its > only accounting for AC power processed through the Sunny Island. I once > had a Sunny Island system with an improperly calibrated shunt and it acted > just as you describe, strange shutdowns, bad SOC output etc. After I got > it calibrated, it has worked flawlessly. > > Take your time when you are calibrating the shunt. Follow the (odd) > directions perfectly and it should work. Verify Sunny Island readings > match your DC clamp meter and you should be good. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Feb 12 12:21:28 2015 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 10:21:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island Failure and various related issues In-Reply-To: References: <026001d0465d$1eac3710$5c04a530$@millersolar.com> <54DC2EA4.4010602@solarray.com> Message-ID: Hi William, One other thing. Remember to specify the 50mV shunt. "225.01 BatCurSnsTyp". I believe that means it will drop 50 mV across the shunt with 500A current throughput. It's this proportion that determines the value for 225.03 BatCurGain. In your case, that should be 50, but I think it defaults to that if you select a 50 mV shunt. On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 10:11 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi William, > > Yes the Outback shunt should be fine for this application. See page 72 > here for the calibration: > http://files.sma.de/dl/15216/SI4548-6048-US-BE-en-20.pdf > As far as verifying with your clamp meter, I'd say if you can verify > within 15% (remember to check polarity) then it is properly calibrated. It > should do a better job than your clamp meter, but that will help make sure > you are close. Check parameter 120.06 TotBatCur to see what the Sunny > Island thinks the battery current is (in older versions of firmware it may > be elsewhere). I have found that with my fluke DC clamp meter (don't know > the model off the top of my head), I am easily within 5% when the current > is around 20ADC. > > Good Luck > > On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 8:58 AM, William Miller > wrote: > >> Mac: >> >> Thanks for the advice. We will install the shunt today. A few more >> questions: >> >> 1. Will the Outback 50ma shunt be compatible. My research indicates the >> value is correct. >> >> 2. DC clamps are notoriously inaccurate, particularly at low amperages. >> Will this be a problem, or is shorting the leads adequate? >> >> Thanks again. >> >> William Miller >> >> PS: We looked at the Midnite cabinets but they put the OPCD too far from >> the batteries. >> >> William >> >> >> >> On Feb 12, 2015, at 4:45 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: >> >> Hi William, >> >> I want to talk directly to your problem at hand. I think installing the >> shunt and properly calibrating it, will fix this system . In a DC coupled >> system with a Sunny Island, it is imperative that you use a shunt, unless >> you are using the Midnite charge controllers with the communications to >> accurately report all charging (or the non-UL listed SMA charge >> controllers). There are so many functions and calculations that the Sunny >> Island performs that needs accurate SOC calculations. All of the shutdowns >> that you are seeing are resulting from faulty SOC measurements. I wouldn't >> believe the reported state of health either, because it is using the faulty >> SOC measurements. Don't believe state of health until you have a couple of >> months of operation with the shunt. >> >> *Right now, with the system as is, it isn't accounting for the charge >> coming from the charge controller(s)*. It is shutting down because its >> only accounting for AC power processed through the Sunny Island. I once >> had a Sunny Island system with an improperly calibrated shunt and it acted >> just as you describe, strange shutdowns, bad SOC output etc. After I got >> it calibrated, it has worked flawlessly. >> >> Take your time when you are calibrating the shunt. Follow the (odd) >> directions perfectly and it should work. Verify Sunny Island readings >> match your DC clamp meter and you should be good. >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Feb 12 12:47:01 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (william at millersolar.com) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 09:47:01 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback AGS & eq In-Reply-To: <8E74E460-1221-489C-A413-289896722836@asis.com> References: <8E74E460-1221-489C-A413-289896722836@asis.com> Message-ID: <01ac01d046eb$e831a190$b894e4b0$@millersolar.com> Friends: I understood the generator had to be started and stopped manually. I have a client who was using the sequence below to stop the generator automatically. To have the generator stop automatically has a convenience factor, but I do like my clients to verify the cycle has accomplished the prescribed regimen, and walking away from the process does not accomplish that. I spoke with Outback regarding the procedure of engaging the auto mode prior to completion of the EQ and the reply was that the system had not been engineered to operate this way so the results could not be guaranteed. William From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay peltz Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2015 8:54 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback AGS & eq Hi Mac I don't think there is a global eq function. Eq continues to be manual on inverters. Gen to manual on Initiate EQ Gen to auto Done Jay Peltz power. On Feb 12, 2015, at 4:52 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: Hello wrenches, I have a question about how the global equalization function works with the Auto Gen Start on the Mate-2. Is there a way to set up a global equalization that will ensure that the generator will shutdown after the equalization has occurred? If so, how do you set it up? Thanks in advance -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at seesolar.com Thu Feb 12 12:04:24 2015 From: max at seesolar.com (Max Balchowsky) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 17:04:24 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Alarm In-Reply-To: <56fed2952c161c67a83d612feabf9d9a.squirrel@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> References: <56fed2952c161c67a83d612feabf9d9a.squirrel@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <1200667819.2352618.1423760664439.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> There are monitoring systems that will send text or email alerts.... Max Balchowsky Design Engineer Golden Bridge Development 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 760-403-6810"Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" From: "drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org" To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2015 6:52 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Alarm We are looking for an audible alarm that will not drive the pets crazy if it stays on for hours when no one is home. At present, only a red indicator light goes on when the grid is down. It would need to run off 120 VAC. Does anyone have any suggestions? Thanks, Drake _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Thu Feb 12 13:15:03 2015 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 13:15:03 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Alarm In-Reply-To: <56fed2952c161c67a83d612feabf9d9a.squirrel@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> References: <56fed2952c161c67a83d612feabf9d9a.squirrel@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <20150212181513.5D24E10275@che.dreamhost.com> Sounds like a perfect use for an Arduino driven speaker. There are thousands of publicly posted circuits that will probably net a simple solution, or the name of a local person who would love to help/ adapt one for this purpose. Sincerely, Glenn Burt Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. -----Original Message----- From: "drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org" Sent: ‎2/‎12/‎2015 9:52 To: "re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org" Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Alarm We are looking for an audible alarm that will not drive the pets crazy if it stays on for hours when no one is home. At present, only a red indicator light goes on when the grid is down. It would need to run off 120 VAC. Does anyone have any suggestions? Thanks, Drake _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dyoung at dovetailsolar.com Thu Feb 12 13:32:59 2015 From: dyoung at dovetailsolar.com (Daniel Young) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 13:32:59 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Alarm In-Reply-To: <20150212181513.5D24E10275@che.dreamhost.com> References: <56fed2952c161c67a83d612feabf9d9a.squirrel@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <20150212181513.5D24E10275@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <00ff01d046f2$5408b0b0$fc1a1210$@com> Might this work? http://www.galco.com/buy/Edwards-Signaling/1064-N5?source=googleshopping &kpid=1064-N5-EDWD&gclid=Cj0KEQiAu_GmBRDhtK-kzqKcuJwBEiQAJvB8n49GEUrgP8Uur3FaS47lpinWK8HaY1q0l_Eq9p6pPqoaAiMd8P8HAQ 120V, adjustable volume. I’ve not used it, so I have no idea if it will fit the bill. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 NABCEP Certified Solar Heating InstallerTM: Cert #SH031409-13 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2015 1:15 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Alarm Sounds like a perfect use for an Arduino driven speaker. There are thousands of publicly posted circuits that will probably net a simple solution, or the name of a local person who would love to help/ adapt one for this purpose. Sincerely, Glenn Burt Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. _____ From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sent: ‎2/‎12/‎2015 9:52 To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Alarm We are looking for an audible alarm that will not drive the pets crazy if it stays on for hours when no one is home. At present, only a red indicator light goes on when the grid is down. It would need to run off 120 VAC. Does anyone have any suggestions? Thanks, Drake _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2249 / Virus Database: 4257/8600 - Release Date: 02/12/15 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Feb 12 13:54:29 2015 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 11:54:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback AGS & eq In-Reply-To: <01ac01d046eb$e831a190$b894e4b0$@millersolar.com> References: <8E74E460-1221-489C-A413-289896722836@asis.com> <01ac01d046eb$e831a190$b894e4b0$@millersolar.com> Message-ID: Hi William, I don't see the "sequence below" that you are referencing. Thanks On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 10:47 AM, wrote: > Friends: > > > > I understood the generator had to be started and stopped manually. I have > a client who was using the sequence below to stop the generator > automatically. To have the generator stop automatically has a convenience > factor, but I do like my clients to verify the cycle has accomplished the > prescribed regimen, and walking away from the process does not accomplish > that. > > > > I spoke with Outback regarding the procedure of engaging the auto mode > prior to completion of the EQ and the reply was that the system had not > been engineered to operate this way so the results could not be guaranteed. > > > > > > William > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *jay peltz > *Sent:* Thursday, February 12, 2015 8:54 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback AGS & eq > > > > Hi Mac > > > > I don't think there is a global eq function. > > Eq continues to be manual on inverters. > > > > Gen to manual on > > Initiate EQ > > Gen to auto > > Done > > > > > > Jay > > Peltz power. > > > > > > > > > > > On Feb 12, 2015, at 4:52 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Hello wrenches, > > > > I have a question about how the global equalization function works with > the Auto Gen Start on the Mate-2. > > > > Is there a way to set up a global equalization that will ensure that the > generator will shutdown after the equalization has occurred? If so, how do > you set it up? > > > > Thanks in advance > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." *-Sócrates* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wapalco at rockisland.com Thu Feb 12 14:05:00 2015 From: wapalco at rockisland.com (Jason Lerner) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 11:05:00 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback AGS & eq In-Reply-To: <01ac01d046eb$e831a190$b894e4b0$@millersolar.com> References: <8E74E460-1221-489C-A413-289896722836@asis.com> <01ac01d046eb$e831a190$b894e4b0$@millersolar.com> Message-ID: Hi All, It’s my understanding that that yes the EQ on the inverter/charger needs to be started manually, but if the gen is running for an EQ cycle and it turns off (say runs out of fuel) before the EQ cycle is complete, the Outback charge controllers can still be in EQ mode. This happened to a few customers, and they were doing an EQ from the sun without knowing it. This was a while ago, so maybe there has been a firmware revision?? Best, Jason Lerner Waldron Power and Light Co. On Feb 12, 2015, at 9:47 AM, william at millersolar.com wrote: > Friends: > > I understood the generator had to be started and stopped manually. I have a client who was using the sequence below to stop the generator automatically. To have the generator stop automatically has a convenience factor, but I do like my clients to verify the cycle has accomplished the prescribed regimen, and walking away from the process does not accomplish that. > > I spoke with Outback regarding the procedure of engaging the auto mode prior to completion of the EQ and the reply was that the system had not been engineered to operate this way so the results could not be guaranteed. > > > William > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay peltz > Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2015 8:54 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback AGS & eq > > Hi Mac > > I don't think there is a global eq function. > Eq continues to be manual on inverters. > > Gen to manual on > Initiate EQ > Gen to auto > Done > > > Jay > Peltz power. > > > > > > > > On Feb 12, 2015, at 4:52 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Hello wrenches, > > I have a question about how the global equalization function works with the Auto Gen Start on the Mate-2. > > Is there a way to set up a global equalization that will ensure that the generator will shutdown after the equalization has occurred? If so, how do you set it up? > > Thanks in advance > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From William.White at rgsenergy.com Thu Feb 12 14:14:25 2015 From: William.White at rgsenergy.com (Will White) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 19:14:25 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Gen4 - How Is It Doing? In-Reply-To: <54D7997A.5090306@berkeleysolar.com> References: <54D50057.6090406@berkeleysolar.com> <54D7997A.5090306@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: We've found the M250 to be just as stable as the M215. Usually when we have an issue it's right out of the box. Thanks, Will Will White Director of Construction - East Coast RGS Energy 64 Main St. |Montpelier, VT 05602 tel 802.223.7804 | mobile 802.234.3167 | fax 802.223.8980 RGSEnergy.com | william.white at rgsenergy.com Confidentiality Note: This e-mail message may contain confidential or legally privileged information and is intended only for the use of the intended recipient(s). Any unauthorized disclosure, dissemination, distribution, copying or the taking of any action in reliance on the information herein is prohibited. E-mails are not secure and cannot be guaranteed to be error free as they can be intercepted, amended, or contain viruses. Anyone who communicates with us by e-mail is deemed to have accepted these risks. RGS Energy is not responsible for errors or omissions in this message and denies any responsibility for any damage arising from the use of e-mail. Any opinion and other statement contained in this message and any attachment are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mark Frye Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2015 12:15 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Gen4 - How Is It Doing? All my M215's are stable in the field. (100% of M190 and M380 replaced at Enphase's cost) Anyone using the M250? Any feedback? Mark On 2/8/2015 6:46 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: M215 failures? I've seen only 1 or 2 out of thousands. The M215 was a remarkable improvement over the M190. Are you having a different experience? Jason Szumlanski On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 12:56 PM, Mark Frye > wrote: Folks, How is the Gen4 Enphase (M250) holding up in the field? Any marked improvement over M215 in terms of failures? Mark Frye -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Feb 12 14:33:51 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (william at millersolar.com) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 11:33:51 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback AGS & eq In-Reply-To: References: <8E74E460-1221-489C-A413-289896722836@asis.com> <01ac01d046eb$e831a190$b894e4b0$@millersolar.com> Message-ID: <030901d046fa$d4de6f60$7e9b4e20$@millersolar.com> Mac: I meant the sequence that Jay had listed: Gen to manual on Initiate EQ Gen to auto Done William From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mac Lewis Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2015 10:54 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback AGS & eq Hi William, I don't see the "sequence below" that you are referencing. Thanks On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 10:47 AM, wrote: Friends: I understood the generator had to be started and stopped manually. I have a client who was using the sequence below to stop the generator automatically. To have the generator stop automatically has a convenience factor, but I do like my clients to verify the cycle has accomplished the prescribed regimen, and walking away from the process does not accomplish that. I spoke with Outback regarding the procedure of engaging the auto mode prior to completion of the EQ and the reply was that the system had not been engineered to operate this way so the results could not be guaranteed. William From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay peltz Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2015 8:54 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback AGS & eq Hi Mac I don't think there is a global eq function. Eq continues to be manual on inverters. Gen to manual on Initiate EQ Gen to auto Done Jay Peltz power. On Feb 12, 2015, at 4:52 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: Hello wrenches, I have a question about how the global equalization function works with the Auto Gen Start on the Mate-2. Is there a way to set up a global equalization that will ensure that the generator will shutdown after the equalization has occurred? If so, how do you set it up? Thanks in advance -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay at asis.com Thu Feb 12 12:45:04 2015 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 09:45:04 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback AGS & eq In-Reply-To: <01ac01d046eb$e831a190$b894e4b0$@millersolar.com> References: <8E74E460-1221-489C-A413-289896722836@asis.com> <01ac01d046eb$e831a190$b894e4b0$@millersolar.com> Message-ID: <213578BE-7436-4CCE-8E2F-D0BEC7780F33@asis.com> I"ve had clients do it for years with no problems that I know of. jay peltz power On Feb 12, 2015, at 9:47 AM, wrote: > Friends: > > I understood the generator had to be started and stopped manually. I have a client who was using the sequence below to stop the generator automatically. To have the generator stop automatically has a convenience factor, but I do like my clients to verify the cycle has accomplished the prescribed regimen, and walking away from the process does not accomplish that. > > I spoke with Outback regarding the procedure of engaging the auto mode prior to completion of the EQ and the reply was that the system had not been engineered to operate this way so the results could not be guaranteed. > > > William > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay peltz > Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2015 8:54 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback AGS & eq > > Hi Mac > > I don't think there is a global eq function. > Eq continues to be manual on inverters. > > Gen to manual on > Initiate EQ > Gen to auto > Done > > > Jay > Peltz power. > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Feb 12 13:43:57 2015 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 10:43:57 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Alarm In-Reply-To: <003a01d046e1$66a21ab0$33e65010$@com> References: <56fed2952c161c67a83d612feabf9d9a.squirrel@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <003a01d046e1$66a21ab0$33e65010$@com> Message-ID: <8e72fbdad816f54280eb97c1f3e1f1e8.squirrel@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> The alarm system is already set up. It involves and Idec ice cube relay with a 240 V coil connected between L-1 AND L-2 of the AC in bus bars. When the grid drops out, the relay reverts to the N/C position, allowing a 120 V contact to send power to a box in the dining room (that has the indicator light on it). I've done this before, and it works well. The only issue with this one is that the client wants to have an audible alarm as well as the light. Doorbell buzzers (according to tech support) will burn out if left on, and would make a lot of racket. Chimes are one shot ding dongs. We may try to find an old fashion radio that you can plug in (and leave on) and have it go on as soon as its attachment cord is energized. A CHEAP device that would create some sound is all we are looking for. Thanks, Drake > Try your local alarm company? > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dana Orzel > Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 > E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com > O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 - No FAX Line > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >  Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org > Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2015 7:53 AM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Alarm > > > > We are looking for an audible alarm that will not drive the pets crazy if > it stays on for hours when no one is home. At present, only a red > indicator light goes on when the grid is down. > > It would need to run off 120 VAC. Does anyone have any suggestions? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > ______________________________________ From jay at asis.com Thu Feb 12 16:13:59 2015 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 13:13:59 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] older magnum MS In-Reply-To: <8e72fbdad816f54280eb97c1f3e1f1e8.squirrel@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> References: <56fed2952c161c67a83d612feabf9d9a.squirrel@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <003a01d046e1$66a21ab0$33e65010$@com> <8e72fbdad816f54280eb97c1f3e1f1e8.squirrel@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <9FC85663-8A4B-431B-8195-AF65136B07B1@asis.com> HI All, I"ve had someone ask me about the following magnum and I know there are many more experienced folks that maybe can chime in. MS4448 V1-00138 2007 The problem is that for the life of the inverter it hasn't worked well for things like digital/electronic washer/dryers, even glow bar ovens etc. I don't have all the specifics yet and haven't visited the site. With new units I've not seen this. Are there some issues with these older units? And if so, any fixes? thanks jay peltz power From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Feb 12 18:18:20 2015 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 16:18:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback AGS & eq In-Reply-To: <213578BE-7436-4CCE-8E2F-D0BEC7780F33@asis.com> References: <8E74E460-1221-489C-A413-289896722836@asis.com> <01ac01d046eb$e831a190$b894e4b0$@millersolar.com> <213578BE-7436-4CCE-8E2F-D0BEC7780F33@asis.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay & William, Just so I understand, you can put the mate into auto right after the eq is enabled (not after eq has finished), and it will manage the generator? Is that right? Thanks On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 10:45 AM, jay peltz wrote: > I"ve had clients do it for years with no problems that I know of. > > jay > > peltz power > > > > On Feb 12, 2015, at 9:47 AM, wrote: > > Friends: > > I understood the generator had to be started and stopped manually. I have > a client who was using the sequence below to stop the generator > automatically. To have the generator stop automatically has a convenience > factor, but I do like my clients to verify the cycle has accomplished the > prescribed regimen, and walking away from the process does not accomplish > that. > > I spoke with Outback regarding the procedure of engaging the auto mode > prior to completion of the EQ and the reply was that the system had not > been engineered to operate this way so the results could not be guaranteed. > > > William > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *jay peltz > *Sent:* Thursday, February 12, 2015 8:54 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback AGS & eq > > Hi Mac > > I don't think there is a global eq function. > Eq continues to be manual on inverters. > > Gen to manual on > Initiate EQ > Gen to auto > Done > > > Jay > Peltz power. > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Feb 12 18:27:05 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 15:27:05 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback AGS & eq In-Reply-To: References: <8E74E460-1221-489C-A413-289896722836@asis.com> <01ac01d046eb$e831a190$b894e4b0$@millersolar.com> <213578BE-7436-4CCE-8E2F-D0BEC7780F33@asis.com> Message-ID: <6C16FF48-A572-4903-A665-6D0D9E6BFC9E@millersolar.com> Mac: Apparently so, but this operation is not supported. It supposedly works. William > On Feb 12, 2015, at 3:18 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Hi Jay & William, > > Just so I understand, you can put the mate into auto right after the eq is enabled (not after eq has finished), and it will manage the generator? Is that right? > > Thanks > >> On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 10:45 AM, jay peltz wrote: >> I"ve had clients do it for years with no problems that I know of. >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> >> >> >>> On Feb 12, 2015, at 9:47 AM, wrote: >>> >>> Friends: >>> >>> I understood the generator had to be started and stopped manually. I have a client who was using the sequence below to stop the generator automatically. To have the generator stop automatically has a convenience factor, but I do like my clients to verify the cycle has accomplished the prescribed regimen, and walking away from the process does not accomplish that. >>> >>> I spoke with Outback regarding the procedure of engaging the auto mode prior to completion of the EQ and the reply was that the system had not been engineered to operate this way so the results could not be guaranteed. >>> >>> >>> William >>> >>> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay peltz >>> Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2015 8:54 AM >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback AGS & eq >>> >>> Hi Mac >>> >>> I don't think there is a global eq function. >>> Eq continues to be manual on inverters. >>> >>> Gen to manual on >>> Initiate EQ >>> Gen to auto >>> Done >>> >>> >>> Jay >>> Peltz power. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Thu Feb 12 19:07:29 2015 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (dan at foxfire-energy.com) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 17:07:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback AGS & eq Message-ID: <20150212170729.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.ef59522ee9.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sigimg0 Type: image/png Size: 25138 bytes Desc: not available URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Thu Feb 12 19:57:51 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 17:57:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] older magnum MS In-Reply-To: <9FC85663-8A4B-431B-8195-AF65136B07B1@asis.com> References: <56fed2952c161c67a83d612feabf9d9a.squirrel@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <003a01d046e1$66a21ab0$33e65010$@com> <8e72fbdad816f54280eb97c1f3e1f1e8.squirrel@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <9FC85663-8A4B-431B-8195-AF65136B07B1@asis.com> Message-ID: <54DD4C0F.4070400@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Thu Feb 12 23:27:41 2015 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2015 04:27:41 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback AGS & eq In-Reply-To: <20150212170729.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.ef59522ee9.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> References: <20150212170729.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.ef59522ee9.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <414D424906AE60489EF1829E1EFA55712C943427@sbc-exch.sbcdomain.local> Hey guys, For me this was a long, long time ago….But I figured that I’d chime in on the subject. Yes Technically if you do as Jay says it’ll work… There was one firmware version of the mate that this was changed (One of the early 4.?? versions) or fixed, then it was “re-fixed” shortly thereafter, as it was a feature that was unintended. If you have the most recent Mate firmware revision (Mate2, Mate) it’ll work this way. I do not know about the Mate3 as I left Outback shortly after the Mate 3 was released. Steve Higgins Technical Services Manager P: +1.902.597.4020 M: +1.206.790.5840 F: +1.902.597.8447 Surrette Battery Company Exclusive manufacturer of [cid:rollsddac31] From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of dan at foxfire-energy.com Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2015 4:07 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback AGS & eq Seems I was once told that (Depending on software revision), successful Switching from Manual to Auto depended on whether or not the system itself called for a start to begin with i.e. whether the start criteria was met in either AGS or a charge mode when the genny was started in manual. My problem was the customer just wanted to run the genset periodically to top off the batteries.. He would start the genny in manual (from the mate 2), and as soon as he kicked it into auto, the genny would shut down. As i recall, we found the smoking gun under timers.. If a clock was still running (Or stopped short) you could switch to auto and it would run out the clock. But if the timers were satisfied, AGS would shut down the genny. Good Luck db Dan Brown Foxfire Energy Corp. Renewable Energy Systems (802)-483-2564 www.Foxfire-Energy.com NABCEP #092907-44 [cid:image001.png at 01D04702.29CAD610] -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback AGS & eq From: William Miller > Date: Thu, February 12, 2015 6:27 pm To: RE-wrenches > Mac: Apparently so, but this operation is not supported. It supposedly works. William On Feb 12, 2015, at 3:18 PM, Mac Lewis > wrote: Hi Jay & William, Just so I understand, you can put the mate into auto right after the eq is enabled (not after eq has finished), and it will manage the generator? Is that right? Thanks On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 10:45 AM, jay peltz > wrote: I"ve had clients do it for years with no problems that I know of. jay peltz power On Feb 12, 2015, at 9:47 AM, > wrote: Friends: I understood the generator had to be started and stopped manually. I have a client who was using the sequence below to stop the generator automatically. To have the generator stop automatically has a convenience factor, but I do like my clients to verify the cycle has accomplished the prescribed regimen, and walking away from the process does not accomplish that. I spoke with Outback regarding the procedure of engaging the auto mode prior to completion of the EQ and the reply was that the system had not been engineered to operate this way so the results could not be guaranteed. William From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay peltz Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2015 8:54 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback AGS & eq Hi Mac I don't think there is a global eq function. Eq continues to be manual on inverters. Gen to manual on Initiate EQ Gen to auto Done Jay Peltz power. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org This email and its attachments have been scanned by mailWatch E-Mail Firewall for viruses, spam, and malicious content. The information transmitted in this email is intended only for the entity or person to which it is addressed and may contain confidential/privileged material. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any review, retransmission, dissemination, or other use of this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 25138 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: rollsddac31 Type: image/jpeg Size: 11941 bytes Desc: rollsddac31 URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Feb 12 20:04:05 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 18:04:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] older magnum MS In-Reply-To: <54DD4C0F.4070400@sindelarsolar.com> References: <56fed2952c161c67a83d612feabf9d9a.squirrel@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <003a01d046e1$66a21ab0$33e65010$@com> <8e72fbdad816f54280eb97c1f3e1f1e8.squirrel@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <9FC85663-8A4B-431B-8195-AF65136B07B1@asis.com> <54DD4C0F.4070400@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <002801d04728$f74df650$e5e9e2f0$@com> The old Trace SW series had a similar issue with Rogers-White(?) boiler controls. It had to do with how the sine (pseudo) wave crossed the X axis. It was too long a space and the controllers just sat there definitely on but doing nothing. I was shown this on an oscilloscope and it was very obvious. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 - No FAX Line "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2015 5:58 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] older magnum MS Jay, I can't answer your question, but only relate that I had a similar experience. An early Magnum MS4448AE would not reliably start and run a modern hydronic boiler in an off grid home. I had opened a case with Magnum tech support, but the frustrated HVAC contractor pulled the unit and installed a different brand of boiler and the problem disappeared. In my own home my MS4024AE has nothing it won't run, and it's a newer unit. But whether that's coincidental or the result of an inverter firmware or hardware upgrade, I can't say. Maybe Gary Baxter can? Allan Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell On 2/12/2015 2:13 PM, jay peltz wrote: HI All, I"ve had someone ask me about the following magnum and I know there are many more experienced folks that maybe can chime in. MS4448 V1-00138 2007 The problem is that for the life of the inverter it hasn't worked well for things like digital/electronic washer/dryers, even glow bar ovens etc. I don't have all the specifics yet and haven't visited the site. With new units I've not seen this. Are there some issues with these older units? And if so, any fixes? thanks jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rich at solartechvt.com Fri Feb 13 09:16:54 2015 From: rich at solartechvt.com (Rich Nicol) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2015 09:16:54 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mounting on Steel and Fabric Buildings In-Reply-To: <20150212170729.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.ef59522ee9.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> References: <20150212170729.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.ef59522ee9.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <004301d04797$bce08950$36a19bf0$@com> Hello Wrenches I am in the initial planning stage of a 150kw roof mount installation. It’s new construction and the architect for this commercial agricultural building is strongly considering a steel (manufacture is Legacy) and fabric building. Any insights or experiences with steel & fabric buildings? Any recommendations for attachment methods or product manufacturers? Thanks Rich From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of dan at foxfire-energy.com Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2015 7:07 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback AGS & eq Seems I was once told that (Depending on software revision), successful Switching from Manual to Auto depended on whether or not the system itself called for a start to begin with i.e. whether the start criteria was met in either AGS or a charge mode when the genny was started in manual. My problem was the customer just wanted to run the genset periodically to top off the batteries.. He would start the genny in manual (from the mate 2), and as soon as he kicked it into auto, the genny would shut down. As i recall, we found the smoking gun under timers.. If a clock was still running (Or stopped short) you could switch to auto and it would run out the clock. But if the timers were satisfied, AGS would shut down the genny. Good Luck db Dan Brown Foxfire Energy Corp. Renewable Energy Systems (802)-483-2564 www.Foxfire-Energy.com NABCEP #092907-44 -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback AGS & eq From: William Miller Date: Thu, February 12, 2015 6:27 pm To: RE-wrenches Mac: Apparently so, but this operation is not supported. It supposedly works. William On Feb 12, 2015, at 3:18 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: Hi Jay & William, Just so I understand, you can put the mate into auto right after the eq is enabled (not after eq has finished), and it will manage the generator? Is that right? Thanks On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 10:45 AM, jay peltz wrote: I"ve had clients do it for years with no problems that I know of. jay peltz power On Feb 12, 2015, at 9:47 AM, wrote: Friends: I understood the generator had to be started and stopped manually. I have a client who was using the sequence below to stop the generator automatically. To have the generator stop automatically has a convenience factor, but I do like my clients to verify the cycle has accomplished the prescribed regimen, and walking away from the process does not accomplish that. I spoke with Outback regarding the procedure of engaging the auto mode prior to completion of the EQ and the reply was that the system had not been engineered to operate this way so the results could not be guaranteed. William From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay peltz Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2015 8:54 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback AGS & eq Hi Mac I don't think there is a global eq function. Eq continues to be manual on inverters. Gen to manual on Initiate EQ Gen to auto Done Jay Peltz power. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _____ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 25138 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mjames at outbackpower.com Fri Feb 13 12:17:49 2015 From: mjames at outbackpower.com (Matt James) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2015 17:17:49 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback AGS & eq In-Reply-To: <414D424906AE60489EF1829E1EFA55712C943427@sbc-exch.sbcdomain.local> References: <20150212170729.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.ef59522ee9.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> <414D424906AE60489EF1829E1EFA55712C943427@sbc-exch.sbcdomain.local> Message-ID: <1A9E4057FEE5F848B47583910E2B2E709E27B6@bliexch.alpha-bli.com> Hi All, I confirmed that a Mate3 with 002.017.000 firmware or later will stop after an EQ cycle if the AGS gen control function is changed from Manual to Auto after the genny is started. It may also work with earlier firmware revs, but I only had a 2.17 rev close by for testing. Matt James Applications Engineering Manager OutBack Power Technologies Inc. Direct: (360) 618-4364 Cell: (360) 618-2869 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Steve Higgins Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2015 8:28 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback AGS & eq Hey guys, For me this was a long, long time ago….But I figured that I’d chime in on the subject. Yes Technically if you do as Jay says it’ll work… There was one firmware version of the mate that this was changed (One of the early 4.?? versions) or fixed, then it was “re-fixed” shortly thereafter, as it was a feature that was unintended. If you have the most recent Mate firmware revision (Mate2, Mate) it’ll work this way. I do not know about the Mate3 as I left Outback shortly after the Mate 3 was released. Steve Higgins Technical Services Manager P: +1.902.597.4020 M: +1.206.790.5840 F: +1.902.597.8447 Surrette Battery Company Exclusive manufacturer of [cid:image002.jpg at 01D0476D.2B76AEB0] From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of dan at foxfire-energy.com Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2015 4:07 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback AGS & eq Seems I was once told that (Depending on software revision), successful Switching from Manual to Auto depended on whether or not the system itself called for a start to begin with i.e. whether the start criteria was met in either AGS or a charge mode when the genny was started in manual. My problem was the customer just wanted to run the genset periodically to top off the batteries.. He would start the genny in manual (from the mate 2), and as soon as he kicked it into auto, the genny would shut down. As i recall, we found the smoking gun under timers.. If a clock was still running (Or stopped short) you could switch to auto and it would run out the clock. But if the timers were satisfied, AGS would shut down the genny. Good Luck db Dan Brown Foxfire Energy Corp. Renewable Energy Systems (802)-483-2564 www.Foxfire-Energy.com NABCEP #092907-44 [cid:image003.png at 01D0476D.2B76AEB0] -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback AGS & eq From: William Miller > Date: Thu, February 12, 2015 6:27 pm To: RE-wrenches > Mac: Apparently so, but this operation is not supported. It supposedly works. William On Feb 12, 2015, at 3:18 PM, Mac Lewis > wrote: Hi Jay & William, Just so I understand, you can put the mate into auto right after the eq is enabled (not after eq has finished), and it will manage the generator? Is that right? Thanks On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 10:45 AM, jay peltz > wrote: I"ve had clients do it for years with no problems that I know of. jay peltz power On Feb 12, 2015, at 9:47 AM, > wrote: Friends: I understood the generator had to be started and stopped manually. I have a client who was using the sequence below to stop the generator automatically. To have the generator stop automatically has a convenience factor, but I do like my clients to verify the cycle has accomplished the prescribed regimen, and walking away from the process does not accomplish that. I spoke with Outback regarding the procedure of engaging the auto mode prior to completion of the EQ and the reply was that the system had not been engineered to operate this way so the results could not be guaranteed. William From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay peltz Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2015 8:54 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback AGS & eq Hi Mac I don't think there is a global eq function. Eq continues to be manual on inverters. Gen to manual on Initiate EQ Gen to auto Done Jay Peltz power. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org This email and its attachments have been scanned by mailWatch E-Mail Firewall for viruses, spam, and malicious content. The information transmitted in this email is intended only for the entity or person to which it is addressed and may contain confidential/privileged material. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any review, retransmission, dissemination, or other use of this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 11941 bytes Desc: image002.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 25138 bytes Desc: image003.png URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Feb 13 14:15:23 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (william at millersolar.com) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2015 11:15:23 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SI/Midnite enclosure In-Reply-To: <329605834.4289842.1423834160035.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <329605834.4289842.1423834160035.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <038801d047c1$6b07adf0$411709d0$@millersolar.com> Tom: Look at the panorama at the bottom of this page: http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/Portfolio/Commercial/RM/Equipment_room.html Notice that we need to run battery cables through about 10 feet of gutter to the furthest left Sunny Island. If I had used the Midnite Sunny Island interface boxes the OCPD contained therein would have been at the end of this cable run. I thought this a poor idea. Look at the photo at the bottom of this page and click on it for a full size view: http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/Portfolio/Commercial/RM/Batteries.html Note that there is a lot of battery cabling to correctly combine the three battery strings. Although I have bolted Class T fuses to battery flags before, there are problems with that approach: 1. In this case that would mean a lot of fuses. 2. Fuses are not meant to be mechanical supports for 4/0 cable. 3. If you blow a fuse bolted to a battery flag replacing one is tedious and done in a dangerous environment. Instead, we try to locate breaker OCPD devices as close to the batteries as possible and run all cabling carefully and protected in conduit. If you look at the panorama in the top photo, the FX1000 cabinet can be seen in the corner. This is just on the other side of the wall from the batteries and the upstream cable run is short and direct to the breakers. This was our best compromise for this project and is typical of how we deal with this challenge. William From: Tom DeBates [mailto:habitek83 at yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, February 13, 2015 5:29 AM To: William Miller Subject: SMA SI/Midnite enclosure Hello William, We've had contact previously... PS: We looked at the Midnite cabinets but they put the OPCD too far from the batteries. Isn;t this a problem with any enclosure, including the OB FW1000? Why not bolt a class T fuse to the battery terminal? ...this is where it should be anyways. Tom DeBates Habi-Tek 524 Summit St. Geneva,IL. 60134 630-262-8193 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay at asis.com Sat Feb 14 15:44:17 2015 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 12:44:17 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] older magnum MS In-Reply-To: <002801d04728$f74df650$e5e9e2f0$@com> References: <56fed2952c161c67a83d612feabf9d9a.squirrel@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <003a01d046e1$66a21ab0$33e65010$@com> <8e72fbdad816f54280eb97c1f3e1f1e8.squirrel@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <9FC85663-8A4B-431B-8195-AF65136B07B1@asis.com> <54DD4C0F.4070400@sindelarsolar.com> <002801d04728$f74df650$e5e9e2f0$@com> Message-ID: <4569ABD7-E1C9-4374-B20D-67AC5E744F9D@asis.com> HI Dana, and others. I talked to Magnum yesterday and they said there have been no upgrades really since new. ( my clients has serial # 136) Except better control of the search mode, around serial number 350. This doesn't seem to jive with what a few others have said or my experience, but I guess that leaves no where to go with it. I also asked about upgrading it, and yes cheaper to buy a new one. If anyone else has any info I"m still interested, thanks jay peltz power PS if I get really motivated I"ll borrow an oscilloscope and test the old one vs a new one. On Feb 12, 2015, at 5:04 PM, "Dana" wrote: > The old Trace SW series had a similar issue with Rogers-White(?) boiler controls. It had to do with how the sine (pseudo) wave crossed the X axis. It was too long a space and the controllers just sat there definitely on but doing nothing. I was shown this on an oscilloscope and it was very obvious. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dana Orzel > Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 > E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com > O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 - No FAX Line > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar > Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2015 5:58 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] older magnum MS > > Jay, > I can't answer your question, but only relate that I had a similar experience. > > An early Magnum MS4448AE would not reliably start and run a modern hydronic boiler in an off grid home. I had opened a case with Magnum tech support, but the frustrated HVAC contractor pulled the unit and installed a different brand of boiler and the problem disappeared. > > In my own home my MS4024AE has nothing it won't run, and it's a newer unit. But whether that's coincidental or the result of an inverter firmware or hardware upgrade, I can't say. Maybe Gary Baxter can? > Allan > > Allan Sindelar > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > 505 780-2738 cell > > > On 2/12/2015 2:13 PM, jay peltz wrote: > HI All, > > I"ve had someone ask me about the following magnum and I know there are many more experienced folks that maybe can chime in. > > MS4448 > V1-00138 > 2007 > > The problem is that for the life of the inverter it hasn't worked well for things like digital/electronic washer/dryers, even glow bar ovens etc. > I don't have all the specifics yet and haven't visited the site. > > With new units I've not seen this. Are there some issues with these older units? > And if so, any fixes? > > thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat Feb 14 19:01:36 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 17:01:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] older magnum MS In-Reply-To: <4569ABD7-E1C9-4374-B20D-67AC5E744F9D@asis.com> References: <56fed2952c161c67a83d612feabf9d9a.squirrel@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <003a01d046e1$66a21ab0$33e65010$@com> <8e72fbdad816f54280eb97c1f3e1f1e8.squirrel@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <9FC85663-8A4B-431B-8195-AF65136B07B1@asis.com> <54DD4C0F.4070400@sindelarsolar.com> <002801d04728$f74df650$e5e9e2f0$@com> <4569ABD7-E1C9-4374-B20D-67AC5E744F9D@asis.com> Message-ID: <54DFE1E0.60809@solarray.com> I know we beat this earlier on the thread, but I had similar problems with SW inverters back in the day, that were fixed with a 50 mF cap. Reread that whole throead as there were definitely potential problems associated with that fix, but we found it worked fine, and never had any other issues. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 2/14/2015 1:44 PM, jay peltz wrote: > HI Dana, and others. > > I talked to Magnum yesterday and they said there have been no upgrades > really since new. ( my clients has serial # 136) > Except better control of the search mode, around serial number 350. > > This doesn't seem to jive with what a few others have said or my > experience, but I guess that leaves no where to go with it. > > I also asked about upgrading it, and yes cheaper to buy a new one. > > If anyone else has any info I"m still interested, > > thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > PS if I get really motivated I"ll borrow an oscilloscope and test the > old one vs a new one. > > > > > > > On Feb 12, 2015, at 5:04 PM, "Dana" > wrote: > >> The old Trace SW series had a similar issue with Rogers-White(?) >> boiler controls. It had to do with how the sine (pseudo) wave crossed >> the X axis. It was too long a space and the controllers just sat >> there definitely on but doing nothing. I was shown this on an >> oscilloscope and it was very obvious. >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> *Dana Orzel* >> _Great Solar Works, Inc - *NABCEP # 051112-136*_ >> *E*-dana at solarwork.com >> -*Web*-solarwork.com >> *O*- 970.626.5253 *C*- 208.721.7003 - No FAX Line >> *_"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" _**__* >> *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >> ]*On Behalf Of*Allan >> Sindelar >> *Sent:*Thursday, February 12, 2015 5:58 PM >> *To:*RE-wrenches >> *Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] older magnum MS >> >> Jay, >> I can't answer your question, but only relate that I had a similar >> experience. >> >> An early Magnum MS4448AE would not reliably start and run a modern >> hydronic boiler in an off grid home. I had opened a case with Magnum >> tech support, but the frustrated HVAC contractor pulled the unit and >> installed a different brand of boiler and the problem disappeared. >> >> In my own home my MS4024AE has nothing it won't run, and it's a newer >> unit. But whether that's coincidental or the result of an inverter >> firmware or hardware upgrade, I can't say. Maybe Gary Baxter can? >> Allan >> >> *Allan Sindelar* >> allan at sindelarsolar.com >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional >> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >> *505 780-2738 cell* >> >> On 2/12/2015 2:13 PM, jay peltz wrote: >> >> HI All, >> >> >> >> I"ve had someone ask me about the following magnum and I know there are many more experienced folks that maybe can chime in. >> >> >> >> MS4448 >> >> V1-00138 >> >> 2007 >> >> >> >> The problem is that for the life of the inverter it hasn't worked well for things like digital/electronic washer/dryers, even glow bar ovens etc. >> >> I don't have all the specifics yet and haven't visited the site. >> >> >> >> With new units I've not seen this. Are there some issues with these older units? >> >> And if so, any fixes? >> >> >> >> thanks >> >> >> >> jay >> >> >> >> peltz power >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sun Feb 15 16:12:48 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Florida Solar Design Group) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 21:12:48 -0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Join me on Pinterest Message-ID: <20150215211248.15675.21494@jobs-weeklyemail-lines-43d82c87.ec2.pin220.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarworks at gmail.com Sun Feb 15 21:55:55 2015 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal Khalsa) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 18:55:55 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquian Energy Batteries. Message-ID: Hi Wrenches!! A customer just passed me some info about a battery company based out of Pittsburgh named Aquian Energy.....They make a battery they call Aqueous Hybrid Ion (AHI™) Batteries .....I looked at their web site and the specs for the batteries look pretty impressive.....I don't want to be the first kid on the block and was wondering if any of you have used them and if you had any feedback.... Their web site is http://www.aquionenergy.com/ I tried contacting the company to find request some more information but they haven't responded to my requests Thanks in advance for your feedback.... Cheers! Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-218-0201 m 541-299-0402 o -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From boB at midnitesolar.com Sun Feb 15 22:00:39 2015 From: boB at midnitesolar.com (boB at midnitesolar.com) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 19:00:39 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquian Energy Batteries. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54E15D57.70001@midnitesolar.com> They have made quite a bit of progress since they first started out. Getting better. I don't know personally but one of our employees lives off grid with a couple stacks of these things. So far, so good. boB On 2/15/2015 6:55 PM, Kirpal Khalsa wrote: > Hi Wrenches!! A customer just passed me some info about a battery > company based out of Pittsburgh named Aquian Energy.....They make a > battery they call > > > Aqueous Hybrid Ion (AHIâ„¢) Batteries > > > .....I looked at their web site and the specs for the batteries look > pretty impressive.....I don't want to be the first kid on the block > and was wondering if any of you have used them and if you had any > feedback.... > Their web site is > http://www.aquionenergy.com/ > I tried contacting the company to find request some more information > but they haven't responded to my requests > > Thanks in advance for your feedback.... > Cheers! > > Sunny Regards, > Kirpal Khalsa > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Oregon Solarworks LLC > www.oregonsolarworks.com > 541-218-0201 m > 541-299-0402 o > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Feb 15 22:08:38 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 17:08:38 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquian Energy Batteries. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches I looked at there products at SPI and ya they look good at first but I was not impressed with the gauge of wire used and if you look at the output voltage graph, I cant see my Outbacks operating at that low of voltage with out having other issues. Have you seen how much space is required for a 750 amp hr package. Jerry On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 4:55 PM, Kirpal Khalsa wrote: > Hi Wrenches!! A customer just passed me some info about a battery company > based out of Pittsburgh named Aquian Energy.....They make a battery they > call Aqueous Hybrid Ion (AHI™) Batteries > .....I looked at > their web site and the specs for the batteries look pretty impressive.....I > don't want to be the first kid on the block and was wondering if any of you > have used them and if you had any feedback.... > Their web site is > http://www.aquionenergy.com/ > I tried contacting the company to find request some more information but > they haven't responded to my requests > > Thanks in advance for your feedback.... > Cheers! > > Sunny Regards, > Kirpal Khalsa > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Oregon Solarworks LLC > www.oregonsolarworks.com > 541-218-0201 m > 541-299-0402 o > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Mon Feb 16 12:29:08 2015 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 12:29:08 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquian Energy Batteries. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000301d04a0e$138f9980$3aaecc80$@burt@glbcc.com> I came across a blog post on these batteries on the AltE Direct site that may be of interest to you. http://www.altestore.com/blog/2014/10/going-solar-doesn%E2%80%99t-have-to-cost-as-much-as-you-think/ -Glenn From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirpal Khalsa Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2015 9:56 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquian Energy Batteries. Hi Wrenches!! A customer just passed me some info about a battery company based out of Pittsburgh named Aquian Energy.....They make a battery they call Aqueous Hybrid Ion (AHI™) Batteries .....I looked at their web site and the specs for the batteries look pretty impressive.....I don't want to be the first kid on the block and was wondering if any of you have used them and if you had any feedback.... Their web site is http://www.aquionenergy.com/ I tried contacting the company to find request some more information but they haven't responded to my requests Thanks in advance for your feedback.... Cheers! Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-218-0201 m 541-299-0402 o -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rebekah.hren at gmail.com Mon Feb 16 12:38:55 2015 From: rebekah.hren at gmail.com (Rebekah Hren) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 12:38:55 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquian Energy Batteries. In-Reply-To: <54e22931.471b450a.638b.78a8SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <54e22931.471b450a.638b.78a8SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Just a reminder that there was a long list thread about these batteries in the fall: https://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=re-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org&q=aquion&submit.x=20&submit.y=17 In particular Phil Undercuffler had some very interesting comments: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org/msg18576.html Rebekah On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 12:29 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: > I came across a blog post on these batteries on the AltE Direct site that > may be of interest to you. > > > > > http://www.altestore.com/blog/2014/10/going-solar-doesn%E2%80%99t-have-to-cost-as-much-as-you-think/ > > > > -Glenn > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Kirpal Khalsa > *Sent:* Sunday, February 15, 2015 9:56 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Aquian Energy Batteries. > > > > Hi Wrenches!! A customer just passed me some info about a battery company > based out of Pittsburgh named Aquian Energy.....They make a battery they > call > Aqueous Hybrid Ion (AHI™) Batteries > > > .....I looked at their web site and the specs for the batteries look > pretty impressive.....I don't want to be the first kid on the block and was > wondering if any of you have used them and if you had any feedback.... > > Their web site is > > http://www.aquionenergy.com/ > > I tried contacting the company to find request some more information but > they haven't responded to my requests > > > > Thanks in advance for your feedback.... > > Cheers! > > > > Sunny Regards, > Kirpal Khalsa > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Oregon Solarworks LLC > www.oregonsolarworks.com > 541-218-0201 m > 541-299-0402 o > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Tel: 336.266.8800 NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 NC Licensed Electrical Contractor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gbaxter at sensata.com Mon Feb 16 13:47:04 2015 From: gbaxter at sensata.com (Baxter, Gary) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 18:47:04 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] older magnum MS In-Reply-To: <54DD4C0F.4070400@sindelarsolar.com> References: <56fed2952c161c67a83d612feabf9d9a.squirrel@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <003a01d046e1$66a21ab0$33e65010$@com> <8e72fbdad816f54280eb97c1f3e1f1e8.squirrel@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <9FC85663-8A4B-431B-8195-AF65136B07B1@asis.com>, <54DD4C0F.4070400@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Sorry for the late reply. I did confirm what our customer support said which is the PAE models had the search mode setting improved but that was about it. In the case of sensitive controls it is most likely distortion causing the issue. As suggested a 50mf cap at the appliance sometimes can help. There is a big difference in the waveform verses the old SW. The Magnum switches at 40kHz so not the obvious steps the SW had but switching still creates noise and may be sensitive to some controls. Gary Baxter Marketing Manager Magnum/Dimensions On Feb 12, 2015, at 4:58 PM, Allan Sindelar > wrote: Jay, I can't answer your question, but only relate that I had a similar experience. An early Magnum MS4448AE would not reliably start and run a modern hydronic boiler in an off grid home. I had opened a case with Magnum tech support, but the frustrated HVAC contractor pulled the unit and installed a different brand of boiler and the problem disappeared. In my own home my MS4024AE has nothing it won't run, and it's a newer unit. But whether that's coincidental or the result of an inverter firmware or hardware upgrade, I can't say. Maybe Gary Baxter can? Allan Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell On 2/12/2015 2:13 PM, jay peltz wrote: HI All, I"ve had someone ask me about the following magnum and I know there are many more experienced folks that maybe can chime in. MS4448 V1-00138 2007 The problem is that for the life of the inverter it hasn't worked well for things like digital/electronic washer/dryers, even glow bar ovens etc. I don't have all the specifics yet and haven't visited the site. With new units I've not seen this. Are there some issues with these older units? And if so, any fixes? thanks jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Mon Feb 16 12:02:10 2015 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 07:02:10 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Energy Batteries. Message-ID: <008c01d04a0a$4f5e8fb0$ee1baf10$@com> Hey Kirpal, I have one of their ~ 22 kWh stacks in my warehouse….looking for a good home. It cost $12,000, including shipping, to get it from PA. to Hawaii. On paper, it looks quite impressive; 3,000 cycles @ 100 percent DOD, which assumes that whatever inverter is used has the DC voltage range to allow for that kind of 100 percent cycling. I did some rough calcs to compare this bugger to standard lead-acid (Trojan, Interstate, U.S. Battery, etc.) and the Sony Li-Fe-Po. If you assume that you are going to need, say, 20 kWhs/day every day from your battery bank, what would be the cost to do so using these three options? (If anyone is interested in the Sony spec sheet, let me know off-list.) For the lead-acid, you would actually need 40 kWhs worth of storage to get 20 kWhs/day since those batteries are typically rated at only 50 percent DOD. Whereas using either the Aquion ion hybrid or Sony Li-Fe-Po you would only need 20 kWhs worth since both are rated at 100 percent DOD. (The Sony battery is rated at 5,000 cycles DOD.) The numbers I’ve come up with: · Lead-acid with 40 kWhs = $6,000 · Aquion with 22 kWhs = $12,00 · Sony with 20 kWhs = $24,000 Conclusion of story, given today’s prices: pay less upfront to get a good, ole fashioned Trojan L16HC (or equivalent) and replace ‘em in five years or so or pay a lot more upfront and have a battery that will last a helluva lot longer. marco From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirpal Khalsa Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2015 4:56 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquian Energy Batteries. Hi Wrenches!! A customer just passed me some info about a battery company based out of Pittsburgh named Aquian Energy.....They make a battery they call Aqueous Hybrid Ion (AHI™) Batteries .....I looked at their web site and the specs for the batteries look pretty impressive.....I don't want to be the first kid on the block and was wondering if any of you have used them and if you had any feedback.... Their web site is http://www.aquionenergy.com/ I tried contacting the company to find request some more information but they haven't responded to my requests Thanks in advance for your feedback.... Cheers! Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-218-0201 m 541-299-0402 o -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swingjunkie at gmail.com Mon Feb 16 19:30:49 2015 From: swingjunkie at gmail.com (Carl Adams) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 19:30:49 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Yingli modules Message-ID: <915C6D3E-39E6-4817-8898-5FBDC6633D4F@gmail.com> I have a customer who insists he must have Yingli modules. So far I can't find them in distribution anywhere. Anyone have a source? With Regards Carl Adams, President SunRock Solar 513.290.9072 (cell) 513.766.6025 (office) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kevin at ecohousesolar.com Mon Feb 16 20:44:58 2015 From: kevin at ecohousesolar.com (Kevin Eigel) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 20:44:58 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Yingli modules In-Reply-To: <915C6D3E-39E6-4817-8898-5FBDC6633D4F@gmail.com> References: <915C6D3E-39E6-4817-8898-5FBDC6633D4F@gmail.com> Message-ID: HI Carl: You could try Focused Energy for the the Yingli modules. Kevin Eigel Ecohouse Solar 614-805-5776 On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 7:30 PM, Carl Adams wrote: > I have a customer who insists he must have Yingli modules. So far I can't > find them in distribution anywhere. Anyone have a source? > > With Regards > Carl Adams, President > SunRock Solar > 513.290.9072 (cell) > 513.766.6025 (office) > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Kevin Eigel *President & Owner* *Ecohouse Solar* www.ecohousesolar.com 1857 Northwest Blvd., Ste. 201 *Columbus, OH 43212614-805-5776* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swingjunkie at gmail.com Mon Feb 16 23:24:20 2015 From: swingjunkie at gmail.com (Carl Adams) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 23:24:20 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Yingli modules In-Reply-To: References: <915C6D3E-39E6-4817-8898-5FBDC6633D4F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <92CFF15F-109F-491A-A70D-24C1C740FB02@gmail.com> Thanks Kevin. I'll check them out With Regards Carl Adams, President SunRock Solar 513.290.9072 (cell) 513.766.6025 (office) On Feb 16, 2015, at 8:44 PM, Kevin Eigel wrote: HI Carl: You could try Focused Energy for the the Yingli modules. Kevin Eigel Ecohouse Solar 614-805-5776 > On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 7:30 PM, Carl Adams wrote: > I have a customer who insists he must have Yingli modules. So far I can't find them in distribution anywhere. Anyone have a source? > > With Regards > Carl Adams, President > SunRock Solar > 513.290.9072 (cell) > 513.766.6025 (office) > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Kevin Eigel President & Owner Ecohouse Solar www.ecohousesolar.com 1857 Northwest Blvd., Ste. 201 Columbus, OH 43212 614-805-5776 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarworks at gmail.com Tue Feb 17 00:28:47 2015 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal Khalsa) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 21:28:47 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquian Energy Batteries. In-Reply-To: References: <54e22931.471b450a.638b.78a8SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Thank you for the comments on these batteries....Rebekah...thanks for pointing to the comments from the past....i tried searching the archives but somehow missed it..... They look like a promising technology....after looking at the spec sheets and seeing how the batteries react to full discharge it looks like even though they can tolerate full discharge, the electronics attached to them may need to cut off before then....giving a smaller available capacity than the battery may actually have. But their tolerance for this high state of discharge is still attractive... On this go around my customer and I decided on good old fashioned Rolls Surrettes.......Perhaps on the next go around or when i update my personal home system I will guinea pig myself....... I am glad we are starting to get more options for energy storage.....This is an area with much room for improvement and growth in our industry......As well as an area that still regularly gets criticized for its environmental foot print...... Cheers to all the good work you all do! Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-218-0201 m 541-299-0402 o On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 9:38 AM, Rebekah Hren wrote: > Just a reminder that there was a long list thread about these batteries in > the fall: > > > https://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=re-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org&q=aquion&submit.x=20&submit.y=17 > > In particular Phil Undercuffler had some very interesting comments: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org/msg18576.html > > Rebekah > > On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 12:29 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: > >> I came across a blog post on these batteries on the AltE Direct site that >> may be of interest to you. >> >> >> >> >> http://www.altestore.com/blog/2014/10/going-solar-doesn%E2%80%99t-have-to-cost-as-much-as-you-think/ >> >> >> >> -Glenn >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Kirpal Khalsa >> *Sent:* Sunday, February 15, 2015 9:56 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Aquian Energy Batteries. >> >> >> >> Hi Wrenches!! A customer just passed me some info about a battery company >> based out of Pittsburgh named Aquian Energy.....They make a battery they >> call >> Aqueous Hybrid Ion (AHI™) Batteries >> >> >> .....I looked at their web site and the specs for the batteries look >> pretty impressive.....I don't want to be the first kid on the block and was >> wondering if any of you have used them and if you had any feedback.... >> >> Their web site is >> >> http://www.aquionenergy.com/ >> >> I tried contacting the company to find request some more information but >> they haven't responded to my requests >> >> >> >> Thanks in advance for your feedback.... >> >> Cheers! >> >> >> >> Sunny Regards, >> Kirpal Khalsa >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> Oregon Solarworks LLC >> www.oregonsolarworks.com >> 541-218-0201 m >> 541-299-0402 o >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > Tel: 336.266.8800 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 > NC Licensed Electrical Contractor > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john at gosolar.co.nz Tue Feb 17 02:49:05 2015 From: john at gosolar.co.nz (John) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 20:49:05 +1300 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Shurflo 9325 pump..... Message-ID: <003101d04a86$341440c0$9c3cc240$@gosolar.co.nz> Hi all, Can I call on the expertise of anyone involved with these pumps. The problem seems to be that the manufacturer wants to supply *kit* of parts and not individual parts, like the brushes, which apparently need to be replaced every year. Same with the cable adaptor - you have to buy a kit that includes all sorts, when you only need one individual piece. I realize why the manufacturers do this, but if you only need brushes, why have to buy a whole Upper Housing kit. And the Lower Housing kit only seems to have the Beige/cream colored diaphragm instead of a black one - are the black replacement ones unobtainable?? Also buying outside the U.S. poses a problem as agents don't always have what you need/want. These are a good little pump and it appears they are a part of the great Planned Obsolence way of the world, replacing next higher assemblies instead of the required necessary parts. Any good contacts on the West Coast for some bits & pieces for these good little pumps. Cheers for any & all help/advice - John Veix, New Zealand -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Tue Feb 17 06:33:07 2015 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 06:33:07 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Shurflo 9325 pump..... In-Reply-To: <003101d04a86$341440c0$9c3cc240$@gosolar.co.nz> References: <003101d04a86$341440c0$9c3cc240$@gosolar.co.nz> Message-ID: I have in the past just removed the brushes and gone to a GOOD hardware store of a starter alternator shop and found something similar and used sandpaper to "fit" the brushes. The brush material is quite soft. On Feb 17, 2015, at 2:49 AM, John wrote: > Hi all, > > Can I call on the expertise of anyone involved with these pumps. The problem seems to be that the manufacturer wants to supply *kit* of parts and not individual parts, like the brushes, which apparently need to be replaced every year. Same with the cable adaptor – you have to buy a kit that includes all sorts, when you only need one individual piece. > > I realize why the manufacturers do this, but if you only need brushes, why have to buy a whole Upper Housing kit. And the Lower Housing kit only seems to have the Beige/cream colored diaphragm instead of a black one – are the black replacement ones unobtainable?? > > Also buying outside the U.S. poses a problem as agents don’t always have what you need/want. > > These are a good little pump and it appears they are a part of the great Planned Obsolence way of the world, replacing next higher assemblies instead of the required necessary parts. Any good contacts on the West Coast for some bits & pieces for these good little pumps. > > Cheers for any & all help/advice – John Veix, New Zealand > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amfrish at aeonsolar.com Tue Feb 17 09:17:02 2015 From: amfrish at aeonsolar.com (Allen Frishman) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 09:17:02 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Main Service Fuse rated higher than Bus Rating of attached sections? Message-ID: Wrenchers, I run into lots of Service Equipment that has a Large Service Switch which feeds multiple Sections with the Bus bar on each section rated significantly less than the main bus. A specific example that I am currently looking at has a 4000Amp Switch with a 3500 Amp Fuse which feeds 3 (1000 Amp) switchgear sections. How is it possible that the 3500 Amp Fuse protects the (3) 1000 Amp Sections? In this particular case each of the 1000 Amp Sections has between 3 and 6 fused switches on them. The sum of those switch/fuse ratings exceeds 1000 Amps in each case. For reference - This service gear is over 40 years old. All thoughts are appreciated. Al Frishman AeonSolar (917) 699-6641 - cell (888) 460-2867 www.aeonsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Tue Feb 17 10:23:30 2015 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 07:23:30 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Main Service Fuse rated higher than Bus Rating of attached sections? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54E35CF2.2010200@berkeleysolar.com> NEC 2008, 240.21 (B)(1)(1) a. Each of the smaller buss sections are feeders which are sized according to the tap rules. I believe the answer to your question is that the larger fuse can't protect the smaller buss. *But*, the likelihood of a short developing in that section of the circuit is very small and if one did, damage to the equipment would be limited that area. This is the essence of allowing taps. Mark Frye On 2/17/2015 6:17 AM, Allen Frishman wrote:Wrenchers, > I run into lots of Service Equipment that has a Large Service Switch > which feeds multiple Sections with the Bus bar on each section rated > significantly less than the main bus. A specific example that I am > currently looking at has a 4000Amp Switch with a 3500 Amp Fuse which > feeds 3 (1000 Amp) switchgear sections. How is it possible that > the 3500 Amp Fuse protects the (3) 1000 Amp Sections? In this > particular case each of the 1000 Amp Sections has between 3 and 6 > fused switches on them. The sum of those switch/fuse ratings > exceeds 1000 Amps in each case. For reference - This service gear > is over 40 years old. > > All thoughts are appreciated. > > /Al Frishman/ > AeonSolar > > /(917) 699-6641 - cell/ > /(888) 460-2867 / > /www.aeonsolar.com / > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amfrish at aeonsolar.com Tue Feb 17 10:37:06 2015 From: amfrish at aeonsolar.com (Allen Frishman) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 10:37:06 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Main Service Fuse rated higher than Bus Rating of attached sections? In-Reply-To: <54E35CF2.2010200@berkeleysolar.com> References: <54E35CF2.2010200@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: Mark, Thank you, your response is very helpful! How does the 120% rule get applied to the 1000A sections in my example? When grid connecting downstream on the load side of the switches on the 1000A sections do we ignore the rating of the 1000A bus bar being protected by a 3500 Amp Fuse? If yes what section in the code allows this? Al Frishman AeonSolar (917) 699-6641 - cell (888) 460-2867 www.aeonsolar.com On Feb 17, 2015, at 10:23 AM, Mark Frye wrote: > NEC 2008, 240.21 (B)(1)(1) a. > > Each of the smaller buss sections are feeders which are sized according to the tap rules. I believe the answer to your question is that the larger fuse can't protect the smaller buss. But, the likelihood of a short developing in that section of the circuit is very small and if one did, damage to the equipment would be limited that area. This is the essence of allowing taps. > > Mark Frye > > On 2/17/2015 6:17 AM, Allen Frishman wrote:Wrenchers, >> I run into lots of Service Equipment that has a Large Service Switch which feeds multiple Sections with the Bus bar on each section rated significantly less than the main bus. A specific example that I am currently looking at has a 4000Amp Switch with a 3500 Amp Fuse which feeds 3 (1000 Amp) switchgear sections. How is it possible that the 3500 Amp Fuse protects the (3) 1000 Amp Sections? In this particular case each of the 1000 Amp Sections has between 3 and 6 fused switches on them. The sum of those switch/fuse ratings exceeds 1000 Amps in each case. For reference - This service gear is over 40 years old. >> >> All thoughts are appreciated. >> Al Frishman >> AeonSolar >> >> (917) 699-6641 - cell >> (888) 460-2867 >> www.aeonsolar.com >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay at asis.com Tue Feb 17 10:50:17 2015 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 07:50:17 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Shurflo 9325 pump..... In-Reply-To: <003101d04a86$341440c0$9c3cc240$@gosolar.co.nz> References: <003101d04a86$341440c0$9c3cc240$@gosolar.co.nz> Message-ID: Hi john What you are looking for on the brushes is End bell brush kit. $27 But I highly recommend Sunpumps brand submersible pumps. Vastly superior design, much easier to repair, and connecting the wires is super easy and won't leak On the overall pump design all these diaphragm pumps require rebuilding or they will fail internally, then leak, then fill up with water which is kind of hard on them. If you look at life cycle cost, the grundfos SQflex, is a much better deal, IMHO Jay Peltz power. > On Feb 16, 2015, at 11:49 PM, "John" wrote: > > Hi all, > > Can I call on the expertise of anyone involved with these pumps. The problem seems to be that the manufacturer wants to supply *kit* of parts and not individual parts, like the brushes, which apparently need to be replaced every year. Same with the cable adaptor – you have to buy a kit that includes all sorts, when you only need one individual piece. > > I realize why the manufacturers do this, but if you only need brushes, why have to buy a whole Upper Housing kit. And the Lower Housing kit only seems to have the Beige/cream colored diaphragm instead of a black one – are the black replacement ones unobtainable?? > > Also buying outside the U.S. poses a problem as agents don’t always have what you need/want. > > These are a good little pump and it appears they are a part of the great Planned Obsolence way of the world, replacing next higher assemblies instead of the required necessary parts. Any good contacts on the West Coast for some bits & pieces for these good little pumps. > > Cheers for any & all help/advice – John Veix, New Zealand > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Tue Feb 17 11:37:00 2015 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 08:37:00 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Main Service Fuse rated higher than Bus Rating of attached sections? In-Reply-To: References: <54E35CF2.2010200@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: <54E36E2C.2020708@berkeleysolar.com> 1. You need to know the actual rating of any sub-section buss that you will be backfeeding with PV. Do not backfeed this buss with more than 100% of it's ampacity. 2. Evaluate 120% of the 4000A buss against the 3500A main and all PV backfeed all of the subsections. Mark Frye On 2/17/2015 7:37 AM, Allen Frishman wrote: > Mark, > Thank you, your response is very helpful! How does the 120% rule > get applied to the 1000A sections in my example? When grid connecting > downstream on the load side of the switches on the 1000A sections do > we ignore the rating of the 1000A bus bar being protected by a 3500 > Amp Fuse? If yes what section in the code allows this? > > > /Al Frishman/ > AeonSolar > > /(917) 699-6641 - cell/ > /(888) 460-2867 / > /www.aeonsolar.com / > > > On Feb 17, 2015, at 10:23 AM, Mark Frye wrote: > >> NEC 2008, 240.21 (B)(1)(1) a. >> >> Each of the smaller buss sections are feeders which are sized >> according to the tap rules. I believe the answer to your question is >> that the larger fuse can't protect the smaller buss. *But*, the >> likelihood of a short developing in that section of the circuit is >> very small and if one did, damage to the equipment would be limited >> that area. This is the essence of allowing taps. >> >> Mark Frye >> >> On 2/17/2015 6:17 AM, Allen Frishman wrote:Wrenchers, >>> I run into lots of Service Equipment that has a Large Service Switch >>> which feeds multiple Sections with the Bus bar on each section rated >>> significantly less than the main bus. A specific example that I >>> am currently looking at has a 4000Amp Switch with a 3500 Amp Fuse >>> which feeds 3 (1000 Amp) switchgear sections. How is it possible >>> that the 3500 Amp Fuse protects the (3) 1000 Amp Sections? In >>> this particular case each of the 1000 Amp Sections has between 3 and >>> 6 fused switches on them. The sum of those switch/fuse ratings >>> exceeds 1000 Amps in each case. For reference - This service gear >>> is over 40 years old. >>> >>> All thoughts are appreciated. >>> >>> /Al Frishman/ >>> AeonSolar >>> >>> /(917) 699-6641 - cell/ >>> /(888) 460-2867 / >>> /www.aeonsolar.com / >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Tue Feb 17 12:08:55 2015 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 10:08:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Yingli modules In-Reply-To: <915C6D3E-39E6-4817-8898-5FBDC6633D4F@gmail.com> References: <915C6D3E-39E6-4817-8898-5FBDC6633D4F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <99D1CFCE-9379-41E8-9BB7-0EB0BB1854F5@skyfireenergy.com> You can check with Conergy. Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 > On Feb 16, 2015, at 5:30 PM, Carl Adams wrote: > > I have a customer who insists he must have Yingli modules. So far I can't find them in distribution anywhere. Anyone have a source? > > With Regards > Carl Adams, President > SunRock Solar > 513.290.9072 (cell) > 513.766.6025 (office) > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From greg at remotepowerinc.com Tue Feb 17 13:33:33 2015 From: greg at remotepowerinc.com (Greg) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 09:33:33 -0900 Subject: [RE-wrenches] older magnum MS - capacitor remedy Message-ID: <54E3897D.3060205@remotepowerinc.com> Gary, We've had problems from time to time with toyostoves and other sensitive electronics not liking the waveform coming from the inverter. 50 mcf, what voltage? How is it wired? Is there a schematic and any other info on the Magnum site for this fix? Thanks! Greg Egan Remote Power Inc. From greg at remotepowerinc.com Tue Feb 17 13:56:20 2015 From: greg at remotepowerinc.com (Greg) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 09:56:20 -0900 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion batteries - batteries in general Message-ID: <54E38ED4.405@remotepowerinc.com> Marco and all wrenches, Thanks for the cost /benefit comparison on batteries. We need batteries that won't freeze easily. Even if the cost was the same we'd need to know more about the Aquions before we could risk installing them in the North. I need a fact check from someone on Lead Acids: Years ago I'd heard that lead acid batts sold in the US were built from 90+% recycled materials. Supposedly there was somewhere in California that put them in a big mixer and busted them up. Plastic floated to the top and was recycled, lead went to the bottom, also recycled. Electrolyte was also at least partially recycled. If this is true it would make the lead acids relatively benign since no new smelting would be needed. Any recent info/links on lead acid battery recycling in the US would be greatly appreciated I like lead acids. There's a little booklet from New England Solar Electric called "BATTERY BOOK FOR YOUR PV HOME" that I give away with each set of batteries we sell. It doesn't completely cure premature battery death from neglect but I think it helps a lot. They're inexpensive and if you buy them by the dozen they'll cut you a deal on them. Keep using your super powers for good! Greg Egan Remote Power Inc. NABCEP Solar Installation Professional Alaska #00106064 Journeyman Electrician From swingjunkie at gmail.com Tue Feb 17 15:33:06 2015 From: swingjunkie at gmail.com (Carl Adams) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 15:33:06 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Yingli modules In-Reply-To: <99D1CFCE-9379-41E8-9BB7-0EB0BB1854F5@skyfireenergy.com> References: <915C6D3E-39E6-4817-8898-5FBDC6633D4F@gmail.com> <99D1CFCE-9379-41E8-9BB7-0EB0BB1854F5@skyfireenergy.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the tips. Focused Energy is carrying the Poly 255 Yingli black frame white backsheet. Conergy referred me to Soligent and they are not carrying the Yingli brand. Rumor is the Panda mono from Yingli are not available in the US. Can anyone confirm this rumor? Cheers Carl Adams NABCEP Certified PV Installer SunRock Solar On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 12:08 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > You can check with Conergy. > > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy Inc. > 780-906-7807 > > > On Feb 16, 2015, at 5:30 PM, Carl Adams wrote: > > I have a customer who insists he must have Yingli modules. So far I can't > find them in distribution anywhere. Anyone have a source? > > With Regards > Carl Adams, President > SunRock Solar > 513.290.9072 (cell) > 513.766.6025 (office) > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Feb 17 15:35:49 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 10:35:49 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Yingli modules In-Reply-To: References: <915C6D3E-39E6-4817-8898-5FBDC6633D4F@gmail.com> <99D1CFCE-9379-41E8-9BB7-0EB0BB1854F5@skyfireenergy.com> Message-ID: Carl Did you call Joe if its available he can get it to you Jerry On Feb 17, 2015 12:33 PM, "Carl Adams" wrote: > > Thanks for the tips. Focused Energy is carrying the Poly 255 Yingli black > frame white backsheet. Conergy referred me to Soligent and they are not > carrying the Yingli brand. Rumor is the Panda mono from Yingli are not > available in the US. Can anyone confirm this rumor? > > Cheers > Carl Adams > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > SunRock Solar > > On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 12:08 PM, Benn Kilburn > wrote: > >> You can check with Conergy. >> >> Benn Kilburn >> SkyFire Energy Inc. >> 780-906-7807 >> >> >> On Feb 16, 2015, at 5:30 PM, Carl Adams wrote: >> >> I have a customer who insists he must have Yingli modules. So far I can't >> find them in distribution anywhere. Anyone have a source? >> >> With Regards >> Carl Adams, President >> SunRock Solar >> 513.290.9072 (cell) >> 513.766.6025 (office) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bill at berkssolar.com Tue Feb 17 16:37:31 2015 From: bill at berkssolar.com (Bill Hennessy) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 21:37:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion batteries - batteries in general In-Reply-To: <54E38ED4.405@remotepowerinc.com> References: <54E38ED4.405@remotepowerinc.com> Message-ID: <1546217414.2187403.1424209051930.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Greg--I've attached a link to East Penn Manufacturing (aka Deka or MK Batteries) recycling brochure. They have the largest battery plant in the world and recycle 200 million pounds of lead and 11 million pounds of plastic a year in their battery production. We live near them and we're in an area littered with superfund sites, but their commitment to the environment is impressive. Maybe cuz they're privately held. I don't work for them or benefit financially from them. http://www.eastpennmanufacturing.com/wp-content/uploads/Recycling-Brochure-0103.pdf That said, Aquion is producing a battery without using lead. The price tag is much higher and the batteries come with only a two-year warranty. I haven't seen anything on their site as to how one could tell if a battery is underperforming. Our systems are almost always grid-tie with battery backup, so reduced maintenance and long shelf life are the drivers--agm or gel. With their ability to function with a partial state of charge, Aquions would do well in a distributed generation scenario and provide great support  for frequency and load managing. Imagine the net metering possibilities.  Bill Hennessy Berks Solar, LLC 371 Centennial Rd Mertztown, PA 19539 o 610 682 4300 c 484 560 4666 NABCEP certified installer PA contractor #44411 www.berkssolar.com From: Greg To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2015 1:56 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion batteries - batteries in general Marco and all wrenches, Thanks for the cost /benefit comparison on batteries.  We need batteries that won't freeze easily.  Even if the cost was the same we'd need to know more about the Aquions before we could risk installing them in the North. I need a fact check from someone on Lead Acids:  Years ago I'd heard that lead acid batts sold in the US were built from 90+% recycled materials.  Supposedly there was somewhere in California that put them in a big mixer and busted them up.  Plastic floated to the top and was recycled, lead went to the bottom, also recycled. Electrolyte was also at least partially recycled.  If this is true it would make the lead acids relatively benign since no new smelting would be needed.  Any recent info/links on lead acid battery recycling in the US would be greatly appreciated I like lead acids.  There's a little booklet from New England Solar Electric called "BATTERY BOOK FOR YOUR PV HOME" that I give away with each set of batteries we sell.  It doesn't completely cure premature battery death from neglect but I think it helps a lot. They're inexpensive and if you buy them by the dozen they'll cut you a deal on them. Keep using your super powers for good! Greg Egan Remote Power Inc. NABCEP Solar Installation Professional Alaska #00106064 Journeyman Electrician _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gbaxter at sensata.com Wed Feb 18 11:46:26 2015 From: gbaxter at sensata.com (Baxter, Gary) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 16:46:26 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] older magnum MS - capacitor remedy In-Reply-To: <54E3897D.3060205@remotepowerinc.com> References: <54E3897D.3060205@remotepowerinc.com> Message-ID: <0992EA98-16DA-46C5-B296-4CF828A37358@sensata.com> Hi Greg Should be a minimum 300 vac usually 370 vac rated. Gary Gary Baxter Marketing Manager Magnum/Dimensions > On Feb 17, 2015, at 10:34 AM, Greg wrote: > > Gary, > > We've had problems from time to time with toyostoves and other sensitive electronics not liking the waveform coming from the inverter. 50 mcf, what voltage? How is it wired? Is there a schematic and any other info on the Magnum site for this fix? > > Thanks! > > Greg Egan > Remote Power Inc. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Wed Feb 18 14:06:44 2015 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 15:06:44 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Yingli modules In-Reply-To: References: <915C6D3E-39E6-4817-8898-5FBDC6633D4F@gmail.com> <99D1CFCE-9379-41E8-9BB7-0EB0BB1854F5@skyfireenergy.com> Message-ID: Yingli will not import the high efficiency Panda modules to the US because of the tariffs. The cells used in the Panda are made in China. On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 4:33 PM, Carl Adams wrote: > > Thanks for the tips. Focused Energy is carrying the Poly 255 Yingli black > frame white backsheet. Conergy referred me to Soligent and they are not > carrying the Yingli brand. Rumor is the Panda mono from Yingli are not > available in the US. Can anyone confirm this rumor? > > Cheers > Carl Adams > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > SunRock Solar > > On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 12:08 PM, Benn Kilburn > wrote: > >> You can check with Conergy. >> >> Benn Kilburn >> SkyFire Energy Inc. >> 780-906-7807 >> >> >> On Feb 16, 2015, at 5:30 PM, Carl Adams wrote: >> >> I have a customer who insists he must have Yingli modules. So far I can't >> find them in distribution anywhere. Anyone have a source? >> >> With Regards >> Carl Adams, President >> SunRock Solar >> 513.290.9072 (cell) >> 513.766.6025 (office) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john at gosolar.co.nz Wed Feb 18 16:09:23 2015 From: john at gosolar.co.nz (John) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 10:09:23 +1300 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Shurflo 9325 pump..... In-Reply-To: References: <003101d04a86$341440c0$9c3cc240$@gosolar.co.nz> Message-ID: <002301d04bbf$2cdd9420$8698bc60$@gosolar.co.nz> Hi Jay, thanks for that info – as a matter of interest, do you happen to have a Shurflo part number for that “End Bell Brush kit” Where do you obtain that part from? Also appreciate your comments on Sunpumps & Grundfos SQflex. Cheers, John V From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay peltz Sent: Wednesday, 18 February 2015 4:50 a.m. To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Shurflo 9325 pump..... Hi john What you are looking for on the brushes is End bell brush kit. $27 But I highly recommend Sunpumps brand submersible pumps. Vastly superior design, much easier to repair, and connecting the wires is super easy and won't leak On the overall pump design all these diaphragm pumps require rebuilding or they will fail internally, then leak, then fill up with water which is kind of hard on them. If you look at life cycle cost, the grundfos SQflex, is a much better deal, IMHO Jay Peltz power. On Feb 16, 2015, at 11:49 PM, "John" wrote: Hi all, Can I call on the expertise of anyone involved with these pumps. The problem seems to be that the manufacturer wants to supply *kit* of parts and not individual parts, like the brushes, which apparently need to be replaced every year. Same with the cable adaptor – you have to buy a kit that includes all sorts, when you only need one individual piece. I realize why the manufacturers do this, but if you only need brushes, why have to buy a whole Upper Housing kit. And the Lower Housing kit only seems to have the Beige/cream colored diaphragm instead of a black one – are the black replacement ones unobtainable?? Also buying outside the U.S. poses a problem as agents don’t always have what you need/want. These are a good little pump and it appears they are a part of the great Planned Obsolence way of the world, replacing next higher assemblies instead of the required necessary parts. Any good contacts on the West Coast for some bits & pieces for these good little pumps. Cheers for any & all help/advice – John Veix, New Zealand _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Feb 18 19:23:48 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 14:23:48 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion batteries - batteries in general In-Reply-To: <1546217414.2187403.1424209051930.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <54E38ED4.405@remotepowerinc.com> <1546217414.2187403.1424209051930.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Wrenches California still does recycling of batteries they in city of industry and recycle everything from the battery Jerry On Feb 17, 2015 1:37 PM, "Bill Hennessy" wrote: > Greg--I've attached a link to East Penn Manufacturing (aka Deka or MK > Batteries) recycling brochure. They have the largest battery plant in the > world and recycle 200 million pounds of lead and 11 million pounds of > plastic a year in their battery production. We live near them and we're in > an area littered with superfund sites, but their commitment to the > environment is impressive. Maybe cuz they're privately held. I don't work > for them or benefit financially from them. > > > http://www.eastpennmanufacturing.com/wp-content/uploads/Recycling-Brochure-0103.pdf > > That said, Aquion is producing a battery without using lead. The price tag > is much higher and the batteries come with only a two-year warranty. I > haven't seen anything on their site as to how one could tell if a battery > is underperforming. Our systems are almost always grid-tie with battery > backup, so reduced maintenance and long shelf life are the drivers--agm or > gel. > > With their ability to function with a partial state of charge, Aquions > would do well in a distributed generation scenario and provide great > support for frequency and load managing. Imagine the net metering > possibilities. > > > Bill Hennessy > Berks Solar, LLC > 371 Centennial Rd > Mertztown, PA 19539 > > o 610 682 4300 > c 484 560 4666 > NABCEP certified installer > PA contractor #44411 > www.berkssolar.com > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Greg > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Sent:* Tuesday, February 17, 2015 1:56 PM > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Aquion batteries - batteries in general > > Marco and all wrenches, > > Thanks for the cost /benefit comparison on batteries. We need batteries > that won't freeze easily. Even if the cost was the same we'd need to > know more about the Aquions before we could risk installing them in the > North. > > I need a fact check from someone on Lead Acids: Years ago I'd heard > that lead acid batts sold in the US were built from 90+% recycled > materials. Supposedly there was somewhere in California that put them > in a big mixer and busted them up. Plastic floated to the top and was > recycled, lead went to the bottom, also recycled. Electrolyte was also > at least partially recycled. If this is true it would make the lead > acids relatively benign since no new smelting would be needed. Any > recent info/links on lead acid battery recycling in the US would be > greatly appreciated > > I like lead acids. There's a little booklet from New England Solar > Electric called "BATTERY BOOK FOR YOUR PV HOME" that I give away with > each set of batteries we sell. It doesn't completely cure premature > battery death from neglect but I think it helps a lot. They're > inexpensive and if you buy them by the dozen they'll cut you a deal on > them. > > Keep using your super powers for good! > > Greg Egan > Remote Power Inc. > NABCEP Solar Installation Professional > Alaska #00106064 Journeyman Electrician > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From greg at remotepowerinc.com Wed Feb 18 20:47:40 2015 From: greg at remotepowerinc.com (Greg) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 16:47:40 -0900 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion batteries - batteries in general In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54E540BC.3010106@remotepowerinc.com> Bill & Jerry, Thanks for the updated intel on lead acid battery recycling. I hope the Aquions turn out to be an awesome product. If I ever get a set installed I'll report back : ). Cheers, Greg Egan Remote Power Inc. NABCEP Solar Installation Professional Alaska #00106064 Journeyman Electrician -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay at asis.com Wed Feb 18 16:41:18 2015 From: jay at asis.com (Jay Peltz) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 16:41:18 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Shurflo 9325 pump..... In-Reply-To: <002301d04bbf$2cdd9420$8698bc60$@gosolar.co.nz> References: <003101d04a86$341440c0$9c3cc240$@gosolar.co.nz> <002301d04bbf$2cdd9420$8698bc60$@gosolar.co.nz> Message-ID: Hi john, From the old memory banks. The motors for most shurflos are the same. No I don't have a part number. You'll have to google it Jay Peltz power Sent from my iPhone > On Feb 18, 2015, at 4:09 PM, John wrote: > > Hi Jay, thanks for that info – as a matter of interest, do you happen to have a Shurflo part number for that “End Bell Brush kit” Where do you obtain that part from? > > Also appreciate your comments on Sunpumps & Grundfos SQflex. Cheers, John V > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay peltz > Sent: Wednesday, 18 February 2015 4:50 a.m. > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Shurflo 9325 pump..... > > Hi john > > What you are looking for on the brushes is > > End bell brush kit. $27 > > But I highly recommend Sunpumps brand submersible pumps. Vastly superior design, much easier to repair, and connecting the wires is super easy and won't leak > > On the overall pump design all these diaphragm pumps require rebuilding or they will fail internally, then leak, then fill up with water which is kind of hard on them. > > If you look at life cycle cost, the grundfos SQflex, is a much better deal, IMHO > > Jay > > Peltz power. > > > > > > > On Feb 16, 2015, at 11:49 PM, "John" wrote: > > Hi all, > > Can I call on the expertise of anyone involved with these pumps. The problem seems to be that the manufacturer wants to supply *kit* of parts and not individual parts, like the brushes, which apparently need to be replaced every year. Same with the cable adaptor – you have to buy a kit that includes all sorts, when you only need one individual piece. > > I realize why the manufacturers do this, but if you only need brushes, why have to buy a whole Upper Housing kit. And the Lower Housing kit only seems to have the Beige/cream colored diaphragm instead of a black one – are the black replacement ones unobtainable?? > > Also buying outside the U.S. poses a problem as agents don’t always have what you need/want. > > These are a good little pump and it appears they are a part of the great Planned Obsolence way of the world, replacing next higher assemblies instead of the required necessary parts. Any good contacts on the West Coast for some bits & pieces for these good little pumps. > > Cheers for any & all help/advice – John Veix, New Zealand > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Thu Feb 19 06:07:51 2015 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 06:07:51 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery maintenance booklets In-Reply-To: <54E38ED4.405@remotepowerinc.com> References: <54E38ED4.405@remotepowerinc.com> Message-ID: <721DD5D6-6275-40DE-8855-D9E02973EF99@swnl.net> I would suggest that you look at the Surrette web site for some VERY informative, up to date battery info. They have a maintenance booklet as well as a care and feeding booklet. The maintenance book has place to log one's Spg & voltages. The folks up there, Steve Higgins for one, worked hard to put this together and those of us who use their product waited for a bit but now its the only thing that we give our customers along w/ a refractometer, safety gloves & glasses. Hard copies available. Thats not to say the folks at NEsolar do not also have a good booklet its been around for quite some time and they also do a decent job..... On Feb 17, 2015, at 1:56 PM, Greg wrote: > Marco and all wrenches, > > Thanks for the cost /benefit comparison on batteries. We need batteries that won't freeze easily. Even if the cost was the same we'd need to know more about the Aquions before we could risk installing them in the North. > > I need a fact check from someone on Lead Acids: Years ago I'd heard that lead acid batts sold in the US were built from 90+% recycled materials. Supposedly there was somewhere in California that put them in a big mixer and busted them up. Plastic floated to the top and was recycled, lead went to the bottom, also recycled. Electrolyte was also at least partially recycled. If this is true it would make the lead acids relatively benign since no new smelting would be needed. Any recent info/links on lead acid battery recycling in the US would be greatly appreciated > > I like lead acids. There's a little booklet from New England Solar Electric called "BATTERY BOOK FOR YOUR PV HOME" that I give away with each set of batteries we sell. It doesn't completely cure premature battery death from neglect but I think it helps a lot. They're inexpensive and if you buy them by the dozen they'll cut you a deal on them. > > Keep using your super powers for good! > > Greg Egan > Remote Power Inc. > NABCEP Solar Installation Professional > Alaska #00106064 Journeyman Electrician > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Fri Feb 20 09:56:02 2015 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 09:56:02 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Screw augers for GM Arrays Message-ID: Would like some feed back on this type of mounting and a supplier for said augers. Please feel free to contact me off list. Thanks in advance. Tump > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com Fri Feb 20 11:37:26 2015 From: bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com (Brian Teitelbaum) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 08:37:26 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Shurflo 9325 pump..... In-Reply-To: <002301d04bbf$2cdd9420$8698bc60$@gosolar.co.nz> References: <003101d04a86$341440c0$9c3cc240$@gosolar.co.nz> <002301d04bbf$2cdd9420$8698bc60$@gosolar.co.nz> Message-ID: John, The part numbers and a parts diagram can be found in the SHURflo manual, here: http://legacy.shurflo.com/pdf/industry/solar/911/911-9325-043-101.pdf Brian Teitelbaum AEE Solar *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *John *Sent:* Wednesday, February 18, 2015 1:09 PM *To:* 'RE-wrenches' *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Shurflo 9325 pump..... Hi Jay, thanks for that info – as a matter of interest, do you happen to have a Shurflo part number for that “End Bell Brush kit” Where do you obtain that part from? Also appreciate your comments on Sunpumps & Grundfos SQflex. Cheers, John V *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] *On Behalf Of *jay peltz *Sent:* Wednesday, 18 February 2015 4:50 a.m. *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Shurflo 9325 pump..... Hi john What you are looking for on the brushes is End bell brush kit. $27 But I highly recommend Sunpumps brand submersible pumps. Vastly superior design, much easier to repair, and connecting the wires is super easy and won't leak On the overall pump design all these diaphragm pumps require rebuilding or they will fail internally, then leak, then fill up with water which is kind of hard on them. If you look at life cycle cost, the grundfos SQflex, is a much better deal, IMHO Jay Peltz power. On Feb 16, 2015, at 11:49 PM, "John" wrote: Hi all, Can I call on the expertise of anyone involved with these pumps. The problem seems to be that the manufacturer wants to supply **kit** of parts and not individual parts, like the brushes, which apparently need to be replaced every year. Same with the cable adaptor – you have to buy a kit that includes all sorts, when you only need one individual piece. I realize why the manufacturers do this, but if you only need brushes, why have to buy a whole Upper Housing kit. And the Lower Housing kit only seems to have the Beige/cream colored diaphragm instead of a black one – are the black replacement ones unobtainable?? Also buying outside the U.S. poses a problem as agents don’t always have what you need/want. These are a good little pump and it appears they are a part of the great Planned Obsolence way of the world, replacing next higher assemblies instead of the required necessary parts. Any good contacts on the West Coast for some bits & pieces for these good little pumps. Cheers for any & all help/advice – John Veix, New Zealand _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john at gosolar.co.nz Fri Feb 20 13:58:02 2015 From: john at gosolar.co.nz (John) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 07:58:02 +1300 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Shurflo 9325 pump..... In-Reply-To: References: <003101d04a86$341440c0$9c3cc240$@gosolar.co.nz> <002301d04bbf$2cdd9420$8698bc60$@gosolar.co.nz> Message-ID: <001b01d04d3f$272c2fb0$75848f10$@gosolar.co.nz> Hi Brian, thanks for that information, but the devil is in the detail. Or in this instance, not in the detail. I have that manual and if you look close, they only show the motor as one unit (T) – there is no breakdown for the End Bell kit – which include the brushes. Not even a mention of them. I guess that instead of replacing the brushes (worth $U.S. 27), they want you to replace the whole motor assembly, worth $U.S. XXXXX Interesting that. Thanks for trying, cheers, John V From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Brian Teitelbaum Sent: Saturday, 21 February 2015 5:37 a.m. To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Shurflo 9325 pump..... John, The part numbers and a parts diagram can be found in the SHURflo manual, here: http://legacy.shurflo.com/pdf/industry/solar/911/911-9325-043-101.pdf Brian Teitelbaum AEE Solar From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of John Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2015 1:09 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Shurflo 9325 pump..... Hi Jay, thanks for that info – as a matter of interest, do you happen to have a Shurflo part number for that “End Bell Brush kit” Where do you obtain that part from? Also appreciate your comments on Sunpumps & Grundfos SQflex. Cheers, John V From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay peltz Sent: Wednesday, 18 February 2015 4:50 a.m. To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Shurflo 9325 pump..... Hi john What you are looking for on the brushes is End bell brush kit. $27 But I highly recommend Sunpumps brand submersible pumps. Vastly superior design, much easier to repair, and connecting the wires is super easy and won't leak On the overall pump design all these diaphragm pumps require rebuilding or they will fail internally, then leak, then fill up with water which is kind of hard on them. If you look at life cycle cost, the grundfos SQflex, is a much better deal, IMHO Jay Peltz power. On Feb 16, 2015, at 11:49 PM, "John" wrote: Hi all, Can I call on the expertise of anyone involved with these pumps. The problem seems to be that the manufacturer wants to supply *kit* of parts and not individual parts, like the brushes, which apparently need to be replaced every year. Same with the cable adaptor – you have to buy a kit that includes all sorts, when you only need one individual piece. I realize why the manufacturers do this, but if you only need brushes, why have to buy a whole Upper Housing kit. And the Lower Housing kit only seems to have the Beige/cream colored diaphragm instead of a black one – are the black replacement ones unobtainable?? Also buying outside the U.S. poses a problem as agents don’t always have what you need/want. These are a good little pump and it appears they are a part of the great Planned Obsolence way of the world, replacing next higher assemblies instead of the required necessary parts. Any good contacts on the West Coast for some bits & pieces for these good little pumps. Cheers for any & all help/advice – John Veix, New Zealand _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Tue Feb 24 13:43:45 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Larry) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 11:43:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunwize or industrial PV modules Message-ID: <54ECC661.9060208@starlightsolar.com> Hello Wrenches, Does anyone know where to by small 20 to 75 Watt modules like Sunwize used to sell? They were what I considered industrial grade with a junction box. I checked with Soligent but they don't have any. Thanks, Larry From solarworks at gmail.com Tue Feb 24 13:49:16 2015 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal Khalsa) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 10:49:16 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunwize or industrial PV modules In-Reply-To: <54ECC661.9060208@starlightsolar.com> References: <54ECC661.9060208@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Larry....Try Erika Karnitz at Backwoods Solar......They usually have those sizes of modules. Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-218-0201 m 541-299-0402 o On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 10:43 AM, Larry wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > Does anyone know where to by small 20 to 75 Watt modules like Sunwize used > to sell? They were what I considered industrial grade with a junction box. > I checked with Soligent but they don't have any. > > Thanks, Larry > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Tue Feb 24 13:52:14 2015 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 11:52:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunwize or industrial PV modules In-Reply-To: <54ECC661.9060208@starlightsolar.com> References: <54ECC661.9060208@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Try Ameresco Solar Jeremy Rodriguez All Solar, Inc. 1463 M Penrose Colorado 81240 719-372-3808 office 719-372-3804 fax www.asolarelectric.com Jeremy and Amy Rodriguez Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > On Feb 24, 2015, at 11:44 AM, "Larry" wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > Does anyone know where to by small 20 to 75 Watt modules like Sunwize used to sell? They were what I considered industrial grade with a junction box. I checked with Soligent but they don't have any. > > Thanks, Larry > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From chris at OasisMontana.com Tue Feb 24 13:51:47 2015 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (Chris Daum) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 11:51:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunwize or industrial PV modules In-Reply-To: <54ECC661.9060208@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <21D507386BFE4BC788472FB3A6F75A10@OasisChris> Try AEE, 888-840-7191 You might have to go up to 90W.... --Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Larry Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2015 11:44 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunwize or industrial PV modules Hello Wrenches, Does anyone know where to by small 20 to 75 Watt modules like Sunwize used to sell? They were what I considered industrial grade with a junction box. I checked with Soligent but they don't have any. Thanks, Larry _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Feb 24 14:20:50 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 09:20:50 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunwize or industrial PV modules In-Reply-To: <54ECC661.9060208@starlightsolar.com> References: <54ECC661.9060208@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Solar world has small modules like that Jerry On Feb 24, 2015 8:44 AM, "Larry" wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > Does anyone know where to by small 20 to 75 Watt modules like Sunwize used > to sell? They were what I considered industrial grade with a junction box. > I checked with Soligent but they don't have any. > > Thanks, Larry > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Feb 24 17:58:10 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 15:58:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunwize or industrial PV modules In-Reply-To: References: <54ECC661.9060208@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <54ED0202.5090306@solarray.com> Where do you get the Solarworld small modules from? I haven't seen those in a very long time. AEE is carrying Dasol 12 v modules, from 20 w up to 135 w. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 2/24/2015 12:20 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Solar world has small modules like that > Jerry > > On Feb 24, 2015 8:44 AM, "Larry" > wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > Does anyone know where to by small 20 to 75 Watt modules like > Sunwize used to sell? They were what I considered industrial grade > with a junction box. I checked with Soligent but they don't have any. > > Thanks, Larry > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Wed Feb 25 01:00:19 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 23:00:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunwize or industrial PV modules In-Reply-To: <54ED0202.5090306@solarray.com> References: <54ECC661.9060208@starlightsolar.com> <54ED0202.5090306@solarray.com> Message-ID: <54ED64F3.1040706@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Feb 25 01:02:41 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 20:02:41 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunwize or industrial PV modules In-Reply-To: <54ED0202.5090306@solarray.com> References: <54ECC661.9060208@starlightsolar.com> <54ED0202.5090306@solarray.com> Message-ID: I just ask my rep an they are in my hand in a couple days Jerry On Feb 24, 2015 12:58 PM, "Ray Walters" wrote: > Where do you get the Solarworld small modules from? I haven't seen > those in a very long time. > AEE is carrying Dasol 12 v modules, from 20 w up to 135 w. > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 > > On 2/24/2015 12:20 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Solar world has small modules like that > Jerry > On Feb 24, 2015 8:44 AM, "Larry" wrote: > >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> Does anyone know where to by small 20 to 75 Watt modules like Sunwize >> used to sell? They were what I considered industrial grade with a junction >> box. I checked with Soligent but they don't have any. >> >> Thanks, Larry >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tom at ecs-solar.com Tue Feb 24 18:00:38 2015 From: tom at ecs-solar.com (Tom Lane) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 18:00:38 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SunWise or Small 12 or 24 Volts Modules Message-ID: SunLand USA at www.sunlandusa.com has a large range of 5 to 180 watt PV modules that are all 12 or 24 volt . The modules are well made and their service is great . They only sell 12 and 24 watt mono and poly modules . I have been happy with their 10 , 20 , 25 , 45 , and 75 , 80 , 85 , 120,140, 160 I have purchased and their other 12 and 24 volt equipment . GatorTom From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Feb 25 12:08:42 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 07:08:42 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SunWise or Small 12 or 24 Volts Modules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I will agree, sunland does produce a bunch of modules in this range Jerry On Feb 25, 2015 7:06 AM, "Tom Lane" wrote: > > > SunLand USA at www.sunlandusa.com has a large range of 5 to 180 watt PV > modules that are all 12 or 24 volt . The modules are well made and their > service is great . They only sell 12 and 24 watt mono and poly modules . I > have been happy with their 10 , 20 , 25 , 45 , and 75 , 80 , 85 , 120,140, > 160 I have purchased and their other 12 and 24 volt equipment . GatorTom > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Wed Feb 25 13:19:48 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Larry) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 11:19:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SunWise or Small 12 or 24 Volts Modules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54EE1244.3030502@starlightsolar.com> Hi Tom, For some reason your link goes nowhere and when I Google "sunlandusa" get nothing related to PV solar. Thank you, Larry Crutcher On 2/24/15 4:00 PM, Tom Lane wrote: > > SunLand USA at www.sunlandusa.com has a large range of 5 to 180 watt PV modules that are all 12 or 24 volt . The modules are well made and their service is great . They only sell 12 and 24 watt mono and poly modules . I have been happy with their 10 , 20 , 25 , 45 , and 75 , 80 , 85 , 120,140, 160 I have purchased and their other 12 and 24 volt equipment . GatorTom > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > From tom at ecs-solar.com Wed Feb 25 17:16:41 2015 From: tom at ecs-solar.com (Tom Lane) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 17:16:41 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small PV modules Message-ID: Oops SunLandUSA or www.solarlandusa.com for 3 to 180 watt 12 or 24 volt modules , sorry for brain lock . GatorTom Sent from my iPad From Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Fri Feb 27 13:09:10 2015 From: Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com (Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 13:09:10 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for a Heart Interface Link2000 Message-ID: Hi: Much appreciated if anyone can help me chase down a working Heart Interface Link2000 If you know of a possible whereabouts of one, please reply off-line. Thanks JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Sun Mar 1 21:04:53 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2015 19:04:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Chofu Hot Tub Heater Message-ID: <54F3C545.7040605@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Mon Mar 2 00:05:21 2015 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2015 21:05:21 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Chofu Hot Tub Heater References: <54F3C545.7040605@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Hey Allan Around these parts the Snorkel Tub is the backwoods basic hot tub of choice. Its just a hot...tub, woodfired, in the past, no circ pumps. www.snorkel.com/ Of course by now they may have some of the amenities of today's conventional tubs. Oh, I see they now have gas and electric fired versions. Bill Feather River Solar Electric 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 / 6544 fax ----- Original Message ----- From: Allan Sindelar To: RE-wrenches Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 6:04 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Chofu Hot Tub Heater Wrenches, I have an off grid client who wants a hot tub, and would prefer a propane heater rather than wood. The Chofu appears to be the only unit that doesn't require a circulation pump. He had located this on his own, but told me that "The propane fired, self igniting, hydrosiphoning Chofu is no longer available domestically. Seems the Japanese do not wish to export these to the USA anymore. I will keep looking as this was the most sane idea for the project and of course cheapest. Chofu listed on Island Hot Tub is currently unavailable. I talked to him a week ago and it sounded like there was no availability for the foreseeable future." Does anyone have a line on where one can be located before they're all gone? Or a good alternative? Thanks, Allan -- Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Tom at thesolar.biz Mon Mar 2 10:40:26 2015 From: Tom at thesolar.biz (Tom Duffy) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 15:40:26 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Chofu Hot Tub Heater In-Reply-To: <54F3C545.7040605@sindelarsolar.com> References: <54F3C545.7040605@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Hi Allan Contact me off list as we have three different all stainless steel size wood fired thermosiphon heaters that actually work. The old Chofu was really made for a special charcoal block and didn’t work well on wood Kind regards Tom Duffy Senior Solar Design Engineer [Real-logo-X-195] E-Mail: tom at thesolar.biz Panama Office: 507-6126-1253 Direct Toll Free: 888-503-6772 International: 575-539-2111 SKYPE Address: thesolarbiz NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off… It should have been solar. Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 9:05 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Chofu Hot Tub Heater Wrenches, I have an off grid client who wants a hot tub, and would prefer a propane heater rather than wood. The Chofu appears to be the only unit that doesn't require a circulation pump. He had located this on his own, but told me that "The propane fired, self igniting, hydrosiphoning Chofu is no longer available domestically. Seems the Japanese do not wish to export these to the USA anymore. I will keep looking as this was the most sane idea for the project and of course cheapest. Chofu listed on Island Hot Tub is currently unavailable. I talked to him a week ago and it sounded like there was no availability for the foreseeable future." Does anyone have a line on where one can be located before they're all gone? Or a good alternative? Thanks, Allan -- Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 17364 bytes Desc: image002.png URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Mon Mar 2 10:09:19 2015 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 11:09:19 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Chofu Hot Tub Heater In-Reply-To: References: <54F3C545.7040605@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: "In addition, we also offer convenient digital push-button technology with our gas and electrically heated hot tub systems." I think you found your product. On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 1:05 AM, frenergy wrote: > Hey Allan > > Around these parts the Snorkel Tub is the backwoods basic hot tub > of choice. Its just a hot...tub, woodfired, in the past, no circ pumps. > www.snorkel.com/ > > Of course by now they may have some of the amenities of today's > conventional tubs. Oh, I see they now have gas and electric fired versions. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 / 6544 fax > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Allan Sindelar > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Sunday, March 01, 2015 6:04 PM > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Chofu Hot Tub Heater > > Wrenches, > I have an off grid client who wants a hot tub, and would prefer a propane > heater rather than wood. The Chofu appears to be the only unit that doesn't > require a circulation pump. He had located this on his own, but told me > that "The propane fired, self igniting, hydrosiphoning Chofu is no longer > available domestically. Seems the Japanese do not wish to export these to > the USA anymore. I will keep looking as this was the most sane idea for > the project and of course cheapest. Chofu listed on Island Hot Tub is > currently unavailable. I talked to him a week ago and it sounded like there > was no availability for the foreseeable future." > > Does anyone have a line on where one can be located before they're all > gone? Or a good alternative? > > Thanks, Allan > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Mon Mar 2 11:02:31 2015 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 09:02:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Chofu Hot Tub Heater In-Reply-To: <54F3C545.7040605@sindelarsolar.com> References: <54F3C545.7040605@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Snorkel or their Scuba. The Scuba is made for shallow 2 ft stock tanks.My 2 installations have been fine for a couple decades. No plumbing required. The Chofu had a thermosiphon thing going on. For the Snorkels.I do use a circulation pump a few minutes at a time-- just a submerisble bilge pump at the bottom, otherwise you'll be out there with a canoe paddle eliminating stratification, which (ahem) tends to make some body parts uncomfortably toasty for a short period of time as one eases into the tub. At some point I wish to put my Scuba in a small greenhouse to make it work year-round, and pre-heat with a simple solar DHW system. Dan Fink Buckville Energy IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Sun, Mar 1, 2015 at 7:04 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > Wrenches, > I have an off grid client who wants a hot tub, and would prefer a propane > heater rather than wood. The Chofu appears to be the only unit that doesn't > require a circulation pump. He had located this on his own, but told me > that "The propane fired, self igniting, hydrosiphoning Chofu is no longer > available domestically. Seems the Japanese do not wish to export these to > the USA anymore. I will keep looking as this was the most sane idea for > the project and of course cheapest. Chofu listed on Island Hot Tub is > currently unavailable. I talked to him a week ago and it sounded like there > was no availability for the foreseeable future." > > Does anyone have a line on where one can be located before they're all > gone? Or a good alternative? > > Thanks, Allan > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com Mon Mar 2 14:15:32 2015 From: bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com (Brian Teitelbaum) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 11:15:32 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Chofu Hot Tub Heater In-Reply-To: <54F3C545.7040605@sindelarsolar.com> References: <54F3C545.7040605@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <3c14330a1cb1960a43ce6352c22e17b1@mail.gmail.com> Hey Allan, For many years, my wife and I have been using an old 6’ long claw-foot tub as our hot tub on the mountain. The 6’ tub is large enough, but very cozy for two people. We just run straight hot water from our Aquastar propane water heater into it, which gets it very hot. It takes a little time to let it heat up the cast iron tub, which cools it down just enough for a great soak. It stays hot for a pretty long period of time, but If it gets too cool, we just run more hot water into it. Then we just use the gray water for garden irrigation the next day. No chemicals, filters, or electricity needed. Brian Teitelbaum AEE Solar *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Allan Sindelar *Sent:* Sunday, March 01, 2015 6:05 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Chofu Hot Tub Heater Wrenches, I have an off grid client who wants a hot tub, and would prefer a propane heater rather than wood. The Chofu appears to be the only unit that doesn't require a circulation pump. He had located this on his own, but told me that "The propane fired, self igniting, hydrosiphoning Chofu is no longer available domestically. Seems the Japanese do not wish to export these to the USA anymore. I will keep looking as this was the most sane idea for the project and of course cheapest. Chofu listed on Island Hot Tub is currently unavailable. I talked to him a week ago and it sounded like there was no availability for the foreseeable future." Does anyone have a line on where one can be located before they're all gone? Or a good alternative? Thanks, Allan -- *Allan Sindelar* *allan at sindelarsolar.com* NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Mon Mar 2 11:22:46 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 09:22:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Chofu Hot Tub Heater In-Reply-To: References: <54F3C545.7040605@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <01c401d05505$1ef5d850$5ce188f0$@com> We had an off grid client who did not want a wood fired heater or wood tub & did a battery based circ pump (Dankoff) @ 24 vdc for the spa and propane heaters about 30 ft away out of sight & it worked really well. Bought a hot tub shell at a wholesaler in Denver, super insulated the 2” supply & return lines, & created the controls at 24 VDC. No blower or bubbles! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 - No FAX Line "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dan Fink Sent: Monday, March 02, 2015 9:03 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Chofu Hot Tub Heater Snorkel or their Scuba. The Scuba is made for shallow 2 ft stock tanks.My 2 installations have been fine for a couple decades. No plumbing required. The Chofu had a thermosiphon thing going on. For the Snorkels.I do use a circulation pump a few minutes at a time-- just a submerisble bilge pump at the bottom, otherwise you'll be out there with a canoe paddle eliminating stratification, which (ahem) tends to make some body parts uncomfortably toasty for a short period of time as one eases into the tub. At some point I wish to put my Scuba in a small greenhouse to make it work year-round, and pre-heat with a simple solar DHW system. Dan Fink Buckville Energy IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Sun, Mar 1, 2015 at 7:04 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: Wrenches, I have an off grid client who wants a hot tub, and would prefer a propane heater rather than wood. The Chofu appears to be the only unit that doesn't require a circulation pump. He had located this on his own, but told me that "The propane fired, self igniting, hydrosiphoning Chofu is no longer available domestically. Seems the Japanese do not wish to export these to the USA anymore. I will keep looking as this was the most sane idea for the project and of course cheapest. Chofu listed on Island Hot Tub is currently unavailable. I talked to him a week ago and it sounded like there was no availability for the foreseeable future." Does anyone have a line on where one can be located before they're all gone? Or a good alternative? Thanks, Allan -- Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solar1online at charter.net Tue Mar 3 09:30:26 2015 From: solar1online at charter.net (Bill Loesch) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2015 08:30:26 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Chofu Hot Tub Heater In-Reply-To: <3c14330a1cb1960a43ce6352c22e17b1@mail.gmail.com> References: <54F3C545.7040605@sindelarsolar.com> <3c14330a1cb1960a43ce6352c22e17b1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <54F5C582.3000205@charter.net> Hi Brian, Great alternative and _proven_ solution. Moreover, the sanitation aspect to heat the water once per use all but eliminates the prospect of breeding "bugs" in the stagnant warm water. It is my understanding that spas/hot tubs that continuously reheat the same water need to have chemicals added to keep them sanitary (at least that is the way it works here for a public spa/hot tub). One other item, necessary to mention for all the rest of us not living in the relatively mild CA/coastal climate-since the tankless stores no heated water all tankless water heaters are subject to freezing conditions. Oh, yes, one can take on Mother Nature and add electric heaters, anti-freezing firing, etc. but for real world practicality, don't subject water to freezing conditions. Solution: mount the tankless inside the heated structure and run the hot tub line through a freeze protected faucet. Thanks for sharing, Brian, Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 On 02-Mar-15 1:15 PM, Brian Teitelbaum wrote: > > Hey Allan, > > For many years, my wife and I have been using an old 6’ long claw-foot > tub as our hot tub on the mountain. The 6’ tub is large enough, but > very cozy for two people. We just run straight hot water from our > Aquastar propane water heater into it, which gets it very hot. It > takes a little time to let it heat up the cast iron tub, which cools > it down just enough for a great soak. It stays hot for a pretty long > period of time, but If it gets too cool, we just run more hot water > into it. > > Then we just use the gray water for garden irrigation the next day. No > chemicals, filters, or electricity needed. > > Brian Teitelbaum > > AEE Solar > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of > *Allan Sindelar > *Sent:* Sunday, March 01, 2015 6:05 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Chofu Hot Tub Heater > > Wrenches, > I have an off grid client who wants a hot tub, and would prefer a > propane heater rather than wood. The Chofu appears to be the only unit > that doesn't require a circulation pump. He had located this on his > own, but told me that "The propane fired, self igniting, > hydrosiphoning Chofu is no longer available domestically. Seems the > Japanese do not wish to export these to the USA anymore. I will keep > looking as this was the most sane idea for the project and of course > cheapest. Chofu listed on Island Hot Tub is currently unavailable. I > talked to him a week ago and it sounded like there was no availability > for the foreseeable future." > > Does anyone have a line on where one can be located before they're all > gone? Or a good alternative? > > Thanks, Allan > > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > _allan at sindelarsolar.com_ > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2015.0.5646 / Virus Database: 4299/9212 - Release Date: 03/02/15 > ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5646 / Virus Database: 4299/9217 - Release Date: 03/03/15 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Mar 3 13:30:59 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2015 11:30:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Chofu Hot Tub Heater In-Reply-To: <54F5C582.3000205@charter.net> References: <54F3C545.7040605@sindelarsolar.com> <3c14330a1cb1960a43ce6352c22e17b1@mail.gmail.com> <54F5C582.3000205@charter.net> Message-ID: <54F5FDE3.4090301@solarray.com> I think the jet tub is the better way to go for off grid. You are only heating the water and running the circ pumps a few hours/ week, and as Bill mentioned: no chemicals. I've tried all of the choices, and while hot water alone is nice, having the massage bubblers is definitely better. Not having chemicals and/ or nasty recirculated bacteria is also much better than regular hot tubs. Off grid folks don't have to do with out modern conveniences, instead they can do it even better. If you wanted to get savvy, you could recycle the water after to a grey water cistern dedicated for toilet flushing and irrigation. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 3/3/2015 7:30 AM, Bill Loesch wrote: > > Hi Brian, > > Great alternative and _proven_ solution. Moreover, the sanitation > aspect to heat the water once per use all but eliminates the prospect > of breeding "bugs" in the stagnant warm water. It is my understanding > that spas/hot tubs that continuously reheat the same water need to > have chemicals added to keep them sanitary (at least that is the way > it works here for a public spa/hot tub). > > One other item, necessary to mention for all the rest of us not living > in the relatively mild CA/coastal climate-since the tankless stores no > heated water all tankless water heaters are subject to freezing > conditions. Oh, yes, one can take on Mother Nature and add electric > heaters, anti-freezing firing, etc. but for real world practicality, > don't subject water to freezing conditions. Solution: mount the > tankless inside the heated structure and run the hot tub line through > a freeze protected faucet. > > Thanks for sharing, Brian, > Bill Loesch > Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar > 314 631 1094 > On 02-Mar-15 1:15 PM, Brian Teitelbaum wrote: >> >> Hey Allan, >> >> For many years, my wife and I have been using an old 6’ long >> claw-foot tub as our hot tub on the mountain. The 6’ tub is large >> enough, but very cozy for two people. We just run straight hot water >> from our Aquastar propane water heater into it, which gets it very >> hot. It takes a little time to let it heat up the cast iron tub, >> which cools it down just enough for a great soak. It stays hot for a >> pretty long period of time, but If it gets too cool, we just run more >> hot water into it. >> >> Then we just use the gray water for garden irrigation the next day. >> No chemicals, filters, or electricity needed. >> >> Brian Teitelbaum >> >> AEE Solar >> >> *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >> ] *On Behalf Of >> *Allan Sindelar >> *Sent:* Sunday, March 01, 2015 6:05 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Chofu Hot Tub Heater >> >> Wrenches, >> I have an off grid client who wants a hot tub, and would prefer a >> propane heater rather than wood. The Chofu appears to be the only >> unit that doesn't require a circulation pump. He had located this on >> his own, but told me that "The propane fired, self igniting, >> hydrosiphoning Chofu is no longer available domestically. Seems the >> Japanese do not wish to export these to the USA anymore. I will keep >> looking as this was the most sane idea for the project and of course >> cheapest. Chofu listed on Island Hot Tub is currently unavailable. I >> talked to him a week ago and it sounded like there was no >> availability for the foreseeable future." >> >> Does anyone have a line on where one can be located before they're >> all gone? Or a good alternative? >> >> Thanks, Allan >> >> -- >> >> *Allan Sindelar* >> _allan at sindelarsolar.com_ >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional >> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >> *505 780-2738 cell* >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2015.0.5646 / Virus Database: 4299/9212 - Release Date: 03/02/15 >> > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2015.0.5646 / Virus Database: 4299/9217 - Release Date: 03/03/15 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Mar 3 18:33:19 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 15:33:19 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Chofu Hot Tub Heater In-Reply-To: <54F5FDE3.4090301@solarray.com> References: <54F3C545.7040605@sindelarsolar.com> <3c14330a1cb1960a43ce6352c22e17b1@mail.gmail.com> <54F5C582.3000205@charter.net> <54F5FDE3.4090301@solarray.com> Message-ID: <974C6BC6-3096-49E0-A825-C3DFE7DBD55A@millersolar.com> Ray: Nothing is more civilized than heated flush water! William > On Mar 3, 2015, at 10:30 AM, Ray Walters wrote: > > I think the jet tub is the better way to go for off grid. You are only heating the water and running the circ pumps a few hours/ week, and as Bill mentioned: no chemicals. > I've tried all of the choices, and while hot water alone is nice, having the massage bubblers is definitely better. Not having chemicals and/ or nasty recirculated bacteria is also much better than regular hot tubs. Off grid folks don't have to do with out modern conveniences, instead they can do it even better. > If you wanted to get savvy, you could recycle the water after to a grey water cistern dedicated for toilet flushing and irrigation. > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > On 3/3/2015 7:30 AM, Bill Loesch wrote: >> >> Hi Brian, >> >> Great alternative and proven solution. Moreover, the sanitation aspect to heat the water once per use all but eliminates the prospect of breeding "bugs" in the stagnant warm water. It is my understanding that spas/hot tubs that continuously reheat the same water need to have chemicals added to keep them sanitary (at least that is the way it works here for a public spa/hot tub). >> >> One other item, necessary to mention for all the rest of us not living in the relatively mild CA/coastal climate-since the tankless stores no heated water all tankless water heaters are subject to freezing conditions. Oh, yes, one can take on Mother Nature and add electric heaters, anti-freezing firing, etc. but for real world practicality, don't subject water to freezing conditions. Solution: mount the tankless inside the heated structure and run the hot tub line through a freeze protected faucet. >> >> Thanks for sharing, Brian, >> Bill Loesch >> Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar >> 314 631 1094 >> On 02-Mar-15 1:15 PM, Brian Teitelbaum wrote: >>> Hey Allan, >>> >>> For many years, my wife and I have been using an old 6’ long claw-foot tub as our hot tub on the mountain. The 6’ tub is large enough, but very cozy for two people. We just run straight hot water from our Aquastar propane water heater into it, which gets it very hot. It takes a little time to let it heat up the cast iron tub, which cools it down just enough for a great soak. It stays hot for a pretty long period of time, but If it gets too cool, we just run more hot water into it. >>> >>> Then we just use the gray water for garden irrigation the next day. No chemicals, filters, or electricity needed. >>> >>> Brian Teitelbaum >>> AEE Solar >>> >>> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar >>> Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 6:05 PM >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Chofu Hot Tub Heater >>> >>> Wrenches, >>> I have an off grid client who wants a hot tub, and would prefer a propane heater rather than wood. The Chofu appears to be the only unit that doesn't require a circulation pump. He had located this on his own, but told me that "The propane fired, self igniting, hydrosiphoning Chofu is no longer available domestically. Seems the Japanese do not wish to export these to the USA anymore. I will keep looking as this was the most sane idea for the project and of course cheapest. Chofu listed on Island Hot Tub is currently unavailable. I talked to him a week ago and it sounded like there was no availability for the foreseeable future." >>> >>> Does anyone have a line on where one can be located before they're all gone? Or a good alternative? >>> >>> Thanks, Allan >>> -- >>> >>> Allan Sindelar >>> allan at sindelarsolar.com >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional >>> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >>> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >>> 505 780-2738 cell >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> No virus found in this message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 2015.0.5646 / Virus Database: 4299/9212 - Release Date: 03/02/15 >>> >> >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2015.0.5646 / Virus Database: 4299/9217 - Release Date: 03/03/15 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From russo.lou at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 18:33:38 2015 From: russo.lou at gmail.com (Lou Russo) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 13:33:38 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Uni-Solar 68w Laminate panel removal Message-ID: Wrenches, Has anyone ever removed these from a metal standing seam roof? If so, was the module or roof damaged? If not, then is there a market for these used panels? Thanks for any insight. Aloha, Lou Russo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Tue Mar 3 20:46:23 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Larry) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2015 18:46:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Uni-Solar 68w Laminate panel removal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54F663EF.5030308@starlightsolar.com> Hi Lou, There should be two screws at the top of the module. Remove these and on a very hot day you should be able to start at the top edge and peel it down. Don't hurry. Once started, a heat gun to the bottom will speed it up. If some stick-um gets left on the roof, you'll need a solvent to loosen it (can't remember, WD40?). So, after all that effort you will have a used Uni-Solar 68 Watt PV mod that is worth about $50 to someone that knows about the performance of those amazing modules. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On 3/3/15 4:33 PM, Lou Russo wrote: > Wrenches, > > Has anyone ever removed these from a metal standing seam roof? If so, > was the module or roof damaged? If not, then is there a market for > these used panels? > > Thanks for any insight. > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > > From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 21:58:22 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 16:58:22 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Uni-Solar 68w Laminate panel removal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have removed them from the snall 3 cell up to the 136/142 modules not pretty i have never tried to save the cells, i used heats and a lot of time makes a mess of both. I have also used ice and its a cleaner seperation but the panels are junk afterwords either way. Jerry On Mar 3, 2015 1:34 PM, "Lou Russo" wrote: > Wrenches, > > Has anyone ever removed these from a metal standing seam roof? If so, was > the module or roof damaged? If not, then is there a market for these used > panels? > > Thanks for any insight. > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarjon at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 12:17:38 2015 From: solarjon at gmail.com (Jonathan Hill) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 09:17:38 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Chofu Hot Tub Heater In-Reply-To: <974C6BC6-3096-49E0-A825-C3DFE7DBD55A@millersolar.com> References: <54F3C545.7040605@sindelarsolar.com> <3c14330a1cb1960a43ce6352c22e17b1@mail.gmail.com> <54F5C582.3000205@charter.net> <54F5FDE3.4090301@solarray.com> <974C6BC6-3096-49E0-A825-C3DFE7DBD55A@millersolar.com> Message-ID: <067FE1DB-E3C1-4225-90A4-7A72DA04B309@gmail.com> I used to use bromine, but it irritated my skin. I switched to a product called Clearwater Blue. Its active ingredient is copper sulphate. I add a cap full every week. It keeps the water clear for a couple of months and is gentle on skin. Highly recommend it. Available from Spa Depot. Jonathan Hill, senior solar applications engineer 530-559-3781 solarjon at gmail.com > On Mar 3, 2015, at 3:33 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Ray: > > Nothing is more civilized than heated flush water! > > William > > > > On Mar 3, 2015, at 10:30 AM, Ray Walters > wrote: > >> I think the jet tub is the better way to go for off grid. You are only heating the water and running the circ pumps a few hours/ week, and as Bill mentioned: no chemicals. >> I've tried all of the choices, and while hot water alone is nice, having the massage bubblers is definitely better. Not having chemicals and/ or nasty recirculated bacteria is also much better than regular hot tubs. Off grid folks don't have to do with out modern conveniences, instead they can do it even better. >> If you wanted to get savvy, you could recycle the water after to a grey water cistern dedicated for toilet flushing and irrigation. >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> On 3/3/2015 7:30 AM, Bill Loesch wrote: >>> >>> Hi Brian, >>> >>> Great alternative and proven solution. Moreover, the sanitation aspect to heat the water once per use all but eliminates the prospect of breeding "bugs" in the stagnant warm water. It is my understanding that spas/hot tubs that continuously reheat the same water need to have chemicals added to keep them sanitary (at least that is the way it works here for a public spa/hot tub). >>> >>> One other item, necessary to mention for all the rest of us not living in the relatively mild CA/coastal climate-since the tankless stores no heated water all tankless water heaters are subject to freezing conditions. Oh, yes, one can take on Mother Nature and add electric heaters, anti-freezing firing, etc. but for real world practicality, don't subject water to freezing conditions. Solution: mount the tankless inside the heated structure and run the hot tub line through a freeze protected faucet. >>> >>> Thanks for sharing, Brian, >>> Bill Loesch >>> Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar >>> 314 631 1094 >>> On 02-Mar-15 1:15 PM, Brian Teitelbaum wrote: >>>> Hey Allan, >>>> >>>> For many years, my wife and I have been using an old 6’ long claw-foot tub as our hot tub on the mountain. The 6’ tub is large enough, but very cozy for two people. We just run straight hot water from our Aquastar propane water heater into it, which gets it very hot. It takes a little time to let it heat up the cast iron tub, which cools it down just enough for a great soak. It stays hot for a pretty long period of time, but If it gets too cool, we just run more hot water into it. >>>> >>>> Then we just use the gray water for garden irrigation the next day. No chemicals, filters, or electricity needed. >>>> >>>> Brian Teitelbaum >>>> AEE Solar >>>> >>>> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar >>>> Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 6:05 PM >>>> To: RE-wrenches >>>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Chofu Hot Tub Heater >>>> >>>> Wrenches, >>>> I have an off grid client who wants a hot tub, and would prefer a propane heater rather than wood. The Chofu appears to be the only unit that doesn't require a circulation pump. He had located this on his own, but told me that "The propane fired, self igniting, hydrosiphoning Chofu is no longer available domestically. Seems the Japanese do not wish to export these to the USA anymore. I will keep looking as this was the most sane idea for the project and of course cheapest. Chofu listed on Island Hot Tub is currently unavailable. I talked to him a week ago and it sounded like there was no availability for the foreseeable future." >>>> >>>> Does anyone have a line on where one can be located before they're all gone? Or a good alternative? >>>> >>>> Thanks, Allan >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Allan Sindelar >>>> allan at sindelarsolar.com >>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>>> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional >>>> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >>>> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >>>> 505 780-2738 cell >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> No virus found in this message. >>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>> Version: 2015.0.5646 / Virus Database: 4299/9212 - Release Date: 03/02/15 >>>> >>> >>> No virus found in this message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 2015.0.5646 / Virus Database: 4299/9217 - Release Date: 03/03/15 >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Mar 4 13:55:19 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2015 11:55:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Chofu Hot Tub Heater In-Reply-To: <974C6BC6-3096-49E0-A825-C3DFE7DBD55A@millersolar.com> References: <54F3C545.7040605@sindelarsolar.com> <3c14330a1cb1960a43ce6352c22e17b1@mail.gmail.com> <54F5C582.3000205@charter.net> <54F5FDE3.4090301@solarray.com> <974C6BC6-3096-49E0-A825-C3DFE7DBD55A@millersolar.com> Message-ID: <54F75517.2060006@solarray.com> Well it seems perverse, but if the warm water sat for an hour in the toilet before the flush, most of the heat would be paid back into the house. I'm envisioning a steaming septic field......Easy to find the leech lines, all the snow is melted there..... R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 3/3/2015 4:33 PM, William Miller wrote: > Ray: > > Nothing is more civilized than heated flush water! > > William > > > > On Mar 3, 2015, at 10:30 AM, Ray Walters > wrote: > >> I think the jet tub is the better way to go for off grid. You are >> only heating the water and running the circ pumps a few hours/ week, >> and as Bill mentioned: no chemicals. >> I've tried all of the choices, and while hot water alone is nice, >> having the massage bubblers is definitely better. Not having >> chemicals and/ or nasty recirculated bacteria is also much better >> than regular hot tubs. Off grid folks don't have to do with out >> modern conveniences, instead they can do it even better. >> If you wanted to get savvy, you could recycle the water after to a >> grey water cistern dedicated for toilet flushing and irrigation. >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> On 3/3/2015 7:30 AM, Bill Loesch wrote: >>> >>> Hi Brian, >>> >>> Great alternative and _proven_ solution. Moreover, the sanitation >>> aspect to heat the water once per use all but eliminates the >>> prospect of breeding "bugs" in the stagnant warm water. It is my >>> understanding that spas/hot tubs that continuously reheat the same >>> water need to have chemicals added to keep them sanitary (at least >>> that is the way it works here for a public spa/hot tub). >>> >>> One other item, necessary to mention for all the rest of us not >>> living in the relatively mild CA/coastal climate-since the tankless >>> stores no heated water all tankless water heaters are subject to >>> freezing conditions. Oh, yes, one can take on Mother Nature and add >>> electric heaters, anti-freezing firing, etc. but for real world >>> practicality, don't subject water to freezing conditions. Solution: >>> mount the tankless inside the heated structure and run the hot tub >>> line through a freeze protected faucet. >>> >>> Thanks for sharing, Brian, >>> Bill Loesch >>> Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar >>> 314 631 1094 >>> On 02-Mar-15 1:15 PM, Brian Teitelbaum wrote: >>>> >>>> Hey Allan, >>>> >>>> For many years, my wife and I have been using an old 6’ long >>>> claw-foot tub as our hot tub on the mountain. The 6’ tub is large >>>> enough, but very cozy for two people. We just run straight hot >>>> water from our Aquastar propane water heater into it, which gets it >>>> very hot. It takes a little time to let it heat up the cast iron >>>> tub, which cools it down just enough for a great soak. It stays hot >>>> for a pretty long period of time, but If it gets too cool, we just >>>> run more hot water into it. >>>> >>>> Then we just use the gray water for garden irrigation the next day. >>>> No chemicals, filters, or electricity needed. >>>> >>>> Brian Teitelbaum >>>> >>>> AEE Solar >>>> >>>> *From:*RE-wrenches >>>> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> ] *On Behalf Of >>>> *Allan Sindelar >>>> *Sent:* Sunday, March 01, 2015 6:05 PM >>>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Chofu Hot Tub Heater >>>> >>>> Wrenches, >>>> I have an off grid client who wants a hot tub, and would prefer a >>>> propane heater rather than wood. The Chofu appears to be the only >>>> unit that doesn't require a circulation pump. He had located this >>>> on his own, but told me that "The propane fired, self igniting, >>>> hydrosiphoning Chofu is no longer available domestically. Seems the >>>> Japanese do not wish to export these to the USA anymore. I will >>>> keep looking as this was the most sane idea for the project and of >>>> course cheapest. Chofu listed on Island Hot Tub is currently >>>> unavailable. I talked to him a week ago and it sounded like there >>>> was no availability for the foreseeable future." >>>> >>>> Does anyone have a line on where one can be located before they're >>>> all gone? Or a good alternative? >>>> >>>> Thanks, Allan >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> *Allan Sindelar* >>>> _allan at sindelarsolar.com_ >>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>>> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional >>>> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >>>> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >>>> *505 780-2738 cell* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> No virus found in this message. >>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>> Version: 2015.0.5646 / Virus Database: 4299/9212 - Release Date: >>>> 03/02/15 >>>> >>> >>> No virus found in this message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 2015.0.5646 / Virus Database: 4299/9217 - Release Date: >>> 03/03/15 >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solar1online at charter.net Wed Mar 4 14:14:59 2015 From: solar1online at charter.net (Bill Loesch) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2015 13:14:59 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Chofu Hot Tub Heater In-Reply-To: <974C6BC6-3096-49E0-A825-C3DFE7DBD55A@millersolar.com> References: <54F3C545.7040605@sindelarsolar.com> <3c14330a1cb1960a43ce6352c22e17b1@mail.gmail.com> <54F5C582.3000205@charter.net> <54F5FDE3.4090301@solarray.com> <974C6BC6-3096-49E0-A825-C3DFE7DBD55A@millersolar.com> Message-ID: <54F759B3.6080805@charter.net> Gentlemen and Ladies, If you really want a powerful therapeutic whirlpool in your hot tub, the best solution I have experienced is a portable vintage Jacuzzi J300-B, 1/3 HP, 115 VAC, 5.6 A, manufactured by Jacuzzi Research, Inc. in Berkley, CA. 28 pounds. This model was available before GFCIs became commonly available, so original users were more than a bit of an adventuresome breed. It is intended for tub use but a snorkel on the air tube would allow "deep water" placement. Today, eBay has six units listed, ranging from $100 to $450 plus shipping including pink and turquoise as well as white, some sellers quote 1950's vintage. Not exactly the longevity you would get from a current day Jacuzzi _branded_ product. http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xjacuzzi+j300-b.TRS0&_nkw=jacuzzi+j300-b&ghostText=&_sacat=0 Stay warm, Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 On 03-Mar-15 5:33 PM, William Miller wrote: > Ray: > > Nothing is more civilized than heated flush water! > > William > > > > On Mar 3, 2015, at 10:30 AM, Ray Walters > wrote: > >> I think the jet tub is the better way to go for off grid. You are >> only heating the water and running the circ pumps a few hours/ week, >> and as Bill mentioned: no chemicals. >> I've tried all of the choices, and while hot water alone is nice, >> having the massage bubblers is definitely better. Not having >> chemicals and/ or nasty recirculated bacteria is also much better >> than regular hot tubs. Off grid folks don't have to do with out >> modern conveniences, instead they can do it even better. >> If you wanted to get savvy, you could recycle the water after to a >> grey water cistern dedicated for toilet flushing and irrigation. >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> On 3/3/2015 7:30 AM, Bill Loesch wrote: >>> >>> Hi Brian, >>> >>> Great alternative and _proven_ solution. Moreover, the sanitation >>> aspect to heat the water once per use all but eliminates the >>> prospect of breeding "bugs" in the stagnant warm water. It is my >>> understanding that spas/hot tubs that continuously reheat the same >>> water need to have chemicals added to keep them sanitary (at least >>> that is the way it works here for a public spa/hot tub). >>> >>> One other item, necessary to mention for all the rest of us not >>> living in the relatively mild CA/coastal climate-since the tankless >>> stores no heated water all tankless water heaters are subject to >>> freezing conditions. Oh, yes, one can take on Mother Nature and add >>> electric heaters, anti-freezing firing, etc. but for real world >>> practicality, don't subject water to freezing conditions. Solution: >>> mount the tankless inside the heated structure and run the hot tub >>> line through a freeze protected faucet. >>> >>> Thanks for sharing, Brian, >>> Bill Loesch >>> Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar >>> 314 631 1094 >>> On 02-Mar-15 1:15 PM, Brian Teitelbaum wrote: >>>> >>>> Hey Allan, >>>> >>>> For many years, my wife and I have been using an old 6’ long >>>> claw-foot tub as our hot tub on the mountain. The 6’ tub is large >>>> enough, but very cozy for two people. We just run straight hot >>>> water from our Aquastar propane water heater into it, which gets it >>>> very hot. It takes a little time to let it heat up the cast iron >>>> tub, which cools it down just enough for a great soak. It stays hot >>>> for a pretty long period of time, but If it gets too cool, we just >>>> run more hot water into it. >>>> >>>> Then we just use the gray water for garden irrigation the next day. >>>> No chemicals, filters, or electricity needed. >>>> >>>> Brian Teitelbaum >>>> >>>> AEE Solar >>>> >>>> *From:*RE-wrenches >>>> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> ] *On Behalf Of >>>> *Allan Sindelar >>>> *Sent:* Sunday, March 01, 2015 6:05 PM >>>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Chofu Hot Tub Heater >>>> >>>> Wrenches, >>>> I have an off grid client who wants a hot tub, and would prefer a >>>> propane heater rather than wood. The Chofu appears to be the only >>>> unit that doesn't require a circulation pump. He had located this >>>> on his own, but told me that "The propane fired, self igniting, >>>> hydrosiphoning Chofu is no longer available domestically. Seems the >>>> Japanese do not wish to export these to the USA anymore. I will >>>> keep looking as this was the most sane idea for the project and of >>>> course cheapest. Chofu listed on Island Hot Tub is currently >>>> unavailable. I talked to him a week ago and it sounded like there >>>> was no availability for the foreseeable future." >>>> >>>> Does anyone have a line on where one can be located before they're >>>> all gone? Or a good alternative? >>>> >>>> Thanks, Allan >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> *Allan Sindelar* >>>> _allan at sindelarsolar.com_ >>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>>> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional >>>> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >>>> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >>>> *505 780-2738 cell* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> No virus found in this message. >>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>> Version: 2015.0.5646 / Virus Database: 4299/9212 - Release Date: >>>> 03/02/15 >>>> >>> >>> No virus found in this message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 2015.0.5646 / Virus Database: 4299/9217 - Release Date: >>> 03/03/15 >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2015.0.5646 / Virus Database: 4299/9226 - Release Date: 03/04/15 > ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5646 / Virus Database: 4299/9226 - Release Date: 03/04/15 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tom at wagonmaker.com Wed Mar 4 14:34:30 2015 From: tom at wagonmaker.com (Tom Elliot) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 09:34:30 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Chofu Hot Tub Heater In-Reply-To: <54F759B3.6080805@charter.net> References: <54F3C545.7040605@sindelarsolar.com> <3c14330a1cb1960a43ce6352c22e17b1@mail.gmail.com> <54F5C582.3000205@charter.net><54F5FDE3.4090301@solarray.com><974C6BC6-3096-49E0-A825-C3DFE7DBD55A@millersolar.com> <54F759B3.6080805@charter.net> Message-ID: We chose not to put any pumps or filters on our Snorkel stove heated cedar tub and would never choose otherwise for off-grid. Wood heats water faster than any other fuel and even in the coldest winter the tub can freeze and both tub and stove survive quite nicely and heat up faster than you’d think. Also in winter water treatment isn’t an issue, we’d just change out the water every few weeks (not as big a deal as it sounds) and occasionally scrub down the tub inside in summer when we changed the water. The beauty of the Snorkel stove is the silence. At 9000’ and miles from anyone in winter the silence was amazing. Sitting in a steaming tub listening to the Earth breathe is an unbeatable experience. I’ve never liked bubbles, jets or motors running. Even better the Snorkel stove and cedar tub we ordered had, hands down, the absolute best instructions on any piece of equipment that needed assembly that I’ve ever seen. Not a blind alley in any of the instructions. Follow them to the letter and the whole things goes together perfectly. Tom From: Bill Loesch Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2015 9:14 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Chofu Hot Tub Heater Gentlemen and Ladies, If you really want a powerful therapeutic whirlpool in your hot tub, the best solution I have experienced is a portable vintage Jacuzzi J300-B, 1/3 HP, 115 VAC, 5.6 A, manufactured by Jacuzzi Research, Inc. in Berkley, CA. 28 pounds. This model was available before GFCIs became commonly available, so original users were more than a bit of an adventuresome breed. It is intended for tub use but a snorkel on the air tube would allow "deep water" placement. Today, eBay has six units listed, ranging from $100 to $450 plus shipping including pink and turquoise as well as white, some sellers quote 1950's vintage. Not exactly the longevity you would get from a current day Jacuzzi branded product. http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xjacuzzi+j300-b.TRS0&_nkw=jacuzzi+j300-b&ghostText=&_sacat=0 Stay warm, Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094On 03-Mar-15 5:33 PM, William Miller wrote: Ray: Nothing is more civilized than heated flush water! William On Mar 3, 2015, at 10:30 AM, Ray Walters wrote: I think the jet tub is the better way to go for off grid. You are only heating the water and running the circ pumps a few hours/ week, and as Bill mentioned: no chemicals. I've tried all of the choices, and while hot water alone is nice, having the massage bubblers is definitely better. Not having chemicals and/ or nasty recirculated bacteria is also much better than regular hot tubs. Off grid folks don't have to do with out modern conveniences, instead they can do it even better. If you wanted to get savvy, you could recycle the water after to a grey water cistern dedicated for toilet flushing and irrigation. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760On 3/3/2015 7:30 AM, Bill Loesch wrote: Hi Brian, Great alternative and proven solution. Moreover, the sanitation aspect to heat the water once per use all but eliminates the prospect of breeding "bugs" in the stagnant warm water. It is my understanding that spas/hot tubs that continuously reheat the same water need to have chemicals added to keep them sanitary (at least that is the way it works here for a public spa/hot tub). One other item, necessary to mention for all the rest of us not living in the relatively mild CA/coastal climate-since the tankless stores no heated water all tankless water heaters are subject to freezing conditions. Oh, yes, one can take on Mother Nature and add electric heaters, anti-freezing firing, etc. but for real world practicality, don't subject water to freezing conditions. Solution: mount the tankless inside the heated structure and run the hot tub line through a freeze protected faucet. Thanks for sharing, Brian, Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094On 02-Mar-15 1:15 PM, Brian Teitelbaum wrote: Hey Allan, For many years, my wife and I have been using an old 6’ long claw-foot tub as our hot tub on the mountain. The 6’ tub is large enough, but very cozy for two people. We just run straight hot water from our Aquastar propane water heater into it, which gets it very hot. It takes a little time to let it heat up the cast iron tub, which cools it down just enough for a great soak. It stays hot for a pretty long period of time, but If it gets too cool, we just run more hot water into it. Then we just use the gray water for garden irrigation the next day. No chemicals, filters, or electricity needed. Brian Teitelbaum AEE Solar From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 6:05 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Chofu Hot Tub Heater Wrenches, I have an off grid client who wants a hot tub, and would prefer a propane heater rather than wood. The Chofu appears to be the only unit that doesn't require a circulation pump. He had located this on his own, but told me that "The propane fired, self igniting, hydrosiphoning Chofu is no longer available domestically. Seems the Japanese do not wish to export these to the USA anymore. I will keep looking as this was the most sane idea for the project and of course cheapest. Chofu listed on Island Hot Tub is currently unavailable. I talked to him a week ago and it sounded like there was no availability for the foreseeable future." Does anyone have a line on where one can be located before they're all gone? Or a good alternative? Thanks, Allan -- Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5646 / Virus Database: 4299/9212 - Release Date: 03/02/15 No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5646 / Virus Database: 4299/9217 - Release Date: 03/03/15 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5646 / Virus Database: 4299/9226 - Release Date: 03/04/15 No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5646 / Virus Database: 4299/9226 - Release Date: 03/04/15 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5751 / Virus Database: 4299/9226 - Release Date: 03/04/15 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 14:46:41 2015 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 12:46:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Chofu Hot Tub Heater In-Reply-To: References: <54F3C545.7040605@sindelarsolar.com> <3c14330a1cb1960a43ce6352c22e17b1@mail.gmail.com> <54F5C582.3000205@charter.net> <54F5FDE3.4090301@solarray.com> <974C6BC6-3096-49E0-A825-C3DFE7DBD55A@millersolar.com> <54F759B3.6080805@charter.net> Message-ID: Tom I sure agree with the silence on the Snorkel and the Scuba, here off grid at 8200 ft! The issue one client had with the redwood tub was draining for the winter (summer only folk) and the wood shrunk; the easy and cheap solution was the plastic liner from Snorkel. I Have the Scuba and a stock tank (Snorkel 3 ft deep, Scuba 2 ft deep) This tub and stove have been in place since about 1986 - 8 years before I was in the business. The canoe paddle works fine against stratification, the cabin has a tiny power system and great that zero electricity is needed; Bubbles and jets are possible as long as you say "excuse me" afterwards. Dan Fink Buckville Energy IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 12:34 PM, Tom Elliot wrote: > We chose not to put any pumps or filters on our Snorkel stove heated > cedar tub and would never choose otherwise for off-grid. Wood heats water > faster than any other fuel and even in the coldest winter the tub can > freeze and both tub and stove survive quite nicely and heat up faster than > you’d think. Also in winter water treatment isn’t an issue, we’d just > change out the water every few weeks (not as big a deal as it sounds) and > occasionally scrub down the tub inside in summer when we changed the water. > > The beauty of the Snorkel stove is the silence. At 9000’ and miles from > anyone in winter the silence was amazing. Sitting in a steaming tub > listening to the Earth breathe is an unbeatable experience. I’ve never > liked bubbles, jets or motors running. > > Even better the Snorkel stove and cedar tub we ordered had, hands down, > the absolute best instructions on any piece of equipment that needed > assembly that I’ve ever seen. Not a blind alley in any of the > instructions. Follow them to the letter and the whole things goes together > perfectly. > > Tom > > *From:* Bill Loesch > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 04, 2015 9:14 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Chofu Hot Tub Heater > > > Gentlemen and Ladies, > > If you really want a powerful therapeutic whirlpool in your hot tub, the > best solution I have experienced is a portable vintage Jacuzzi J300-B, 1/3 > HP, 115 VAC, 5.6 A, manufactured by Jacuzzi Research, Inc. in Berkley, CA. > 28 pounds. This model was available before GFCIs became commonly available, > so original users were more than a bit of an adventuresome breed. It is > intended for tub use but a snorkel on the air tube would allow "deep water" > placement. > > Today, eBay has six units listed, ranging from $100 to $450 plus shipping > including pink and turquoise as well as white, some sellers quote 1950's > vintage. Not exactly the longevity you would get from a current day Jacuzzi > *branded* product. > > http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xjacuzzi+j300-b.TRS0&_nkw=jacuzzi+j300-b&ghostText=&_sacat=0 > > Stay warm, > > Bill Loesch > Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar314 631 1094 > > On 03-Mar-15 5:33 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Ray: > > Nothing is more civilized than heated flush water! > > William > > > > On Mar 3, 2015, at 10:30 AM, Ray Walters wrote: > > I think the jet tub is the better way to go for off grid. You are only > heating the water and running the circ pumps a few hours/ week, and as Bill > mentioned: no chemicals. > I've tried all of the choices, and while hot water alone is nice, having > the massage bubblers is definitely better. Not having chemicals and/ or > nasty recirculated bacteria is also much better than regular hot tubs. Off > grid folks don't have to do with out modern conveniences, instead they can > do it even better. > If you wanted to get savvy, you could recycle the water after to a grey > water cistern dedicated for toilet flushing and irrigation. > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 > > On 3/3/2015 7:30 AM, Bill Loesch wrote: > > > Hi Brian, > > Great alternative and *proven* solution. Moreover, the sanitation aspect > to heat the water once per use all but eliminates the prospect of breeding > "bugs" in the stagnant warm water. It is my understanding that spas/hot > tubs that continuously reheat the same water need to have chemicals added > to keep them sanitary (at least that is the way it works here for a public > spa/hot tub). > > One other item, necessary to mention for all the rest of us not living in > the relatively mild CA/coastal climate-since the tankless stores no heated > water all tankless water heaters are subject to freezing conditions. Oh, > yes, one can take on Mother Nature and add electric heaters, anti-freezing > firing, etc. but for real world practicality, don't subject water to > freezing conditions. Solution: mount the tankless inside the heated > structure and run the hot tub line through a freeze protected faucet. > > Thanks for sharing, Brian, > > Bill Loesch > Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar314 631 1094 > > On 02-Mar-15 1:15 PM, Brian Teitelbaum wrote: > > Hey Allan, > > > > For many years, my wife and I have been using an old 6’ long claw-foot tub > as our hot tub on the mountain. The 6’ tub is large enough, but very cozy > for two people. We just run straight hot water from our Aquastar propane > water heater into it, which gets it very hot. It takes a little time to let > it heat up the cast iron tub, which cools it down just enough for a great > soak. It stays hot for a pretty long period of time, but If it gets too > cool, we just run more hot water into it. > > > > Then we just use the gray water for garden irrigation the next day. No > chemicals, filters, or electricity needed. > > > > Brian Teitelbaum > > AEE Solar > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Allan Sindelar > *Sent:* Sunday, March 01, 2015 6:05 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Chofu Hot Tub Heater > > > > Wrenches, > I have an off grid client who wants a hot tub, and would prefer a propane > heater rather than wood. The Chofu appears to be the only unit that doesn't > require a circulation pump. He had located this on his own, but told me > that "The propane fired, self igniting, hydrosiphoning Chofu is no longer > available domestically. Seems the Japanese do not wish to export these to > the USA anymore. I will keep looking as this was the most sane idea for > the project and of course cheapest. Chofu listed on Island Hot Tub is > currently unavailable. I talked to him a week ago and it sounded like there > was no availability for the foreseeable future." > > Does anyone have a line on where one can be located before they're all > gone? Or a good alternative? > > Thanks, Allan > > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > *allan at sindelarsolar.com* > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2015.0.5646 / Virus Database: 4299/9212 - Release Date: 03/02/15 > > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2015.0.5646 / Virus Database: 4299/9217 - Release Date: 03/03/15 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2015.0.5646 / Virus Database: 4299/9226 - Release Date: 03/04/15 > > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2015.0.5646 / Virus Database: 4299/9226 - Release Date: 03/04/15 > > ------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > ------------------------------ > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2015.0.5751 / Virus Database: 4299/9226 - Release Date: 03/04/15 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wstahle at pacific.net Wed Mar 4 15:50:02 2015 From: wstahle at pacific.net (Wallace Stahle) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 12:50:02 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Chofu and other Hot Tubs In-Reply-To: <54F3C545.7040605@sindelarsolar.com> References: <54F3C545.7040605@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: For those interested in non electric hot tubs for unique customer tastes check out these 20 versions. http://forgreenheat.blogspot.com/2014/12/10-stunning-wood-fired-hot-tubs-from.html?utm_source=January+2015+Newsletter&utm_campaign=Jan15+Newsletter&utm_medium=emai From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Wed Mar 4 16:15:29 2015 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2015 13:15:29 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Chofu Hot Tub Heater In-Reply-To: References: <54F3C545.7040605@sindelarsolar.com> <3c14330a1cb1960a43ce6352c22e17b1@mail.gmail.com> <54F5C582.3000205@charter.net> <54F5FDE3.4090301@solarray.com> <974C6BC6-3096-49E0-A825-C3DFE7DBD55A@millersolar.com> <54F759B3.6080805@charter.net> Message-ID: <151363.95023.bm@smtp112.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi gang. It's been interesting, but also has gotten too far afield from wrenching. If you have any further suggestions for Allan, please contact him off list. From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Thu Mar 5 11:00:33 2015 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2015 11:00:33 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Corrugated Roof Brackets Message-ID: Hey Wrenchers, Anyone have feedback or preferences on mounting systems for corrugated roofs? I'm looking at the S-5! CorruBracket . Its for a very small system on a hunting cabin. The pitch is probably about 20 degrees and and I'm concerned about leaks over time. Any recommendations are appreciated. Thanks Adam Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies 4872 State Route 9G Germantown NY, 12526 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Mar 5 11:02:49 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2015 06:02:49 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Corrugated Roof Brackets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Also look at Sunmodo they have some nice brackets and are state side Jerry On Mar 5, 2015 6:00 AM, "AE Solar" wrote: > Hey Wrenchers, > Anyone have feedback or preferences on mounting systems for corrugated > roofs? I'm looking at the S-5! CorruBracket > . Its for a very small system > on a hunting cabin. The pitch is probably about 20 degrees and and I'm > concerned about leaks over time. Any recommendations are appreciated. Thanks > Adam > > Adam Katzman > Autonomous Energies > 4872 State Route 9G > Germantown NY, 12526 > www.autonomousenergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Mar 5 11:15:14 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2015 11:15:14 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Corrugated Roof Brackets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've tried the Versabracket, which uses a similar sealing method, with great results. I can't speak for the Corrubracket specifically. Jason Szumlanski On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 11:00 AM, AE Solar wrote: > Hey Wrenchers, > Anyone have feedback or preferences on mounting systems for corrugated > roofs? I'm looking at the S-5! CorruBracket > . Its for a very small system > on a hunting cabin. The pitch is probably about 20 degrees and and I'm > concerned about leaks over time. Any recommendations are appreciated. Thanks > Adam > > Adam Katzman > Autonomous Energies > 4872 State Route 9G > Germantown NY, 12526 > www.autonomousenergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- *Florida Solar Design Group is not an engineering or architectural firm and acts only as a consultant and authorized independent sales agent. Any advice or work product provided shall not be considered licensed professional services provided under Florida Statute Chapters 471, 481, or 491.* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Thu Mar 5 11:09:30 2015 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2015 06:09:30 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Corrugated Roof Brackets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00a801d0575e$c4cf59d0$4e6e0d70$@com> Our S-5! friends have come up with a new bracket for sinusoidal, corrugated roofs with the penetration points being ON TOP of the ridges and not in the valleys, which is a more bettah design (as we say here in Hawaii). S-5! is only now supplying them to their distributor chain, so you may want to contact S-5! directly to get them. They're in the ~ $10/piece (ouch!) range. marco From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of AE Solar Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2015 6:01 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Corrugated Roof Brackets Hey Wrenchers, Anyone have feedback or preferences on mounting systems for corrugated roofs? I'm looking at the S-5! CorruBracket . Its for a very small system on a hunting cabin. The pitch is probably about 20 degrees and and I'm concerned about leaks over time. Any recommendations are appreciated. Thanks Adam Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies 4872 State Route 9G Germantown NY, 12526 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2250 / Virus Database: 4257/8730 - Release Date: 03/05/15 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From westbrock at positiveenergysolar.com Thu Mar 5 12:46:00 2015 From: westbrock at positiveenergysolar.com (Mark Westbrock) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2015 10:46:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Corrugated Roof Brackets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We like the SnapNrack corrugated roof blocks . They are simple, effective, and not too expensive (I think around $3.50 each). The only trick is that you need access to the roofing members because you will need to add blocking or sister up trusses so that you have a structural member directly below a corrugation peak. ---- *Mark Westbrock* Branch Manager & Employee-Owner NM EE98J Journeyman Electrician NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified PV Technical Sales Positive Energy, Inc. 510 S. Main St. Las Cruces, NM 88001 office: 575-524-2030 cell: 575-640-2432 mw at positiveenergysolar.com www.positiveenergysolar.com On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 9:00 AM, AE Solar wrote: > Hey Wrenchers, > Anyone have feedback or preferences on mounting systems for corrugated > roofs? I'm looking at the S-5! CorruBracket > . Its for a very small system > on a hunting cabin. The pitch is probably about 20 degrees and and I'm > concerned about leaks over time. Any recommendations are appreciated. Thanks > Adam > > Adam Katzman > Autonomous Energies > 4872 State Route 9G > Germantown NY, 12526 > www.autonomousenergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Thu Mar 5 12:33:49 2015 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2015 13:33:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] adjustable cordless impact drivers In-Reply-To: <2A7BF9B0-9330-4FC8-A8E4-8851921FD828@asis.com> References: <50143BE1.8060108@finestplanet.com> <8A9F8CCF-7017-4CA0-A2AF-042C16982412@asis.com> <2A7BF9B0-9330-4FC8-A8E4-8851921FD828@asis.com> Message-ID: Here's a new product from S5 that seems to meet this requirement. http://www.s-5.com/clamps/assemblytools/index_5221.cfm On Sat, Aug 4, 2012 at 3:56 PM, jay peltz wrote: > Hi All, > > Has anyone found a adjustable impact or drill that can be torque set? > > IE for installing racking/ modules? > > thanks, > > jay > > peltz power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Options & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay at asis.com Thu Mar 5 17:40:19 2015 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2015 14:40:19 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Corrugated Roof Brackets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DE29E4D-26DF-40DF-9056-1D79BE3B65B4@asis.com> Hi Mark, I'm curious how you seal the hole. thanks jay peltz power On Mar 5, 2015, at 9:46 AM, Mark Westbrock wrote: > We like the SnapNrack corrugated roof blocks. They are simple, effective, and not too expensive (I think around $3.50 each). The only trick is that you need access to the roofing members because you will need to add blocking or sister up trusses so that you have a structural member directly below a corrugation peak. > ---- > Mark Westbrock > Branch Manager & Employee-Owner > NM EE98J Journeyman Electrician > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified PV Technical Sales > > Positive Energy, Inc. > 510 S. Main St. > Las Cruces, NM 88001 > office: 575-524-2030 > cell: 575-640-2432 > mw at positiveenergysolar.com > www.positiveenergysolar.com > > > > On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 9:00 AM, AE Solar wrote: > Hey Wrenchers, > Anyone have feedback or preferences on mounting systems for corrugated roofs? I'm looking at the S-5! CorruBracket. Its for a very small system on a hunting cabin. The pitch is probably about 20 degrees and and I'm concerned about leaks over time. Any recommendations are appreciated. Thanks > Adam > > Adam Katzman > Autonomous Energies > 4872 State Route 9G > Germantown NY, 12526 > www.autonomousenergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at seesolar.com Thu Mar 5 20:05:23 2015 From: max at seesolar.com (Max Balchowsky) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2015 01:05:23 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Corrugated Roof Brackets In-Reply-To: <4DE29E4D-26DF-40DF-9056-1D79BE3B65B4@asis.com> References: <4DE29E4D-26DF-40DF-9056-1D79BE3B65B4@asis.com> Message-ID: <1462114832.3729225.1425603923890.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> we've installed hundreds of these and use rubber grommets  Max Balchowsky Design Engineer Golden Bridge Development 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 760-403-6810"Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" From: jay peltz To: RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2015 2:40 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Corrugated Roof Brackets Hi Mark, I'm curious how you seal the hole. thanks jay peltz power On Mar 5, 2015, at 9:46 AM, Mark Westbrock wrote: We like the SnapNrack corrugated roof blocks.  They are simple, effective, and not too expensive (I think around $3.50 each).  The only trick is that you need access to the roofing members because you will need to add blocking or sister up trusses so that you have a structural member directly below a corrugation peak.---- Mark Westbrock Branch Manager & Employee-OwnerNM EE98J Journeyman Electrician NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalNABCEP Certified PV Technical Sales Positive Energy, Inc. 510 S. Main St.Las Cruces, NM 88001 office: 575-524-2030 cell: 575-640-2432 mw at positiveenergysolar.com www.positiveenergysolar.com          On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 9:00 AM, AE Solar wrote: Hey Wrenchers,Anyone have feedback or preferences on mounting systems for corrugated roofs? I'm looking at the S-5! CorruBracket. Its for a very small system on a hunting cabin. The pitch is probably about 20 degrees and and I'm concerned about leaks over time. Any recommendations are appreciated. ThanksAdam Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies 4872 State Route 9G Germantown NY, 12526 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From westbrock at positiveenergysolar.com Fri Mar 6 10:29:53 2015 From: westbrock at positiveenergysolar.com (Mark Westbrock) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2015 08:29:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Corrugated Roof Brackets In-Reply-To: <4DE29E4D-26DF-40DF-9056-1D79BE3B65B4@asis.com> References: <4DE29E4D-26DF-40DF-9056-1D79BE3B65B4@asis.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay, Just use your roofing sealant of choice: fill the pilot hole, leaving a nice big dab on the surface. Because all holes are in the peaks of the corrugations, the penetration point should see very little water there. In my opinion, this is less risky than trying to seal the corrugations with a dynaflash. Although the manufacturer's literature also shows using this product with pro-panel type roofs, for those we prefer either standoffs with dyna-flash or Schletter Fix-Ts. Cheers, Mark ---- *Mark Westbrock* Branch Manager & Employee-Owner NM EE98J Journeyman Electrician NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified PV Technical Sales Positive Energy, Inc. 510 S. Main St. Las Cruces, NM 88001 office: 575-524-2030 cell: 575-640-2432 mw at positiveenergysolar.com www.positiveenergysolar.com On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 3:40 PM, jay peltz wrote: > Hi Mark, > > I'm curious how you seal the hole. > > thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > > On Mar 5, 2015, at 9:46 AM, Mark Westbrock < > westbrock at positiveenergysolar.com> wrote: > > We like the SnapNrack corrugated roof blocks > . They are > simple, effective, and not too expensive (I think around $3.50 each). The > only trick is that you need access to the roofing members because you will > need to add blocking or sister up trusses so that you have a structural > member directly below a corrugation peak. > ---- > *Mark Westbrock* > Branch Manager & Employee-Owner > NM EE98J Journeyman Electrician > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified PV Technical Sales > > Positive Energy, Inc. > 510 S. Main St. > Las Cruces, NM 88001 > office: 575-524-2030 > cell: 575-640-2432 > mw at positiveenergysolar.com > www.positiveenergysolar.com > > > > On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 9:00 AM, AE Solar > wrote: > >> Hey Wrenchers, >> Anyone have feedback or preferences on mounting systems for corrugated >> roofs? I'm looking at the S-5! CorruBracket >> . Its for a very small system >> on a hunting cabin. The pitch is probably about 20 degrees and and I'm >> concerned about leaks over time. Any recommendations are appreciated. Thanks >> Adam >> >> Adam Katzman >> Autonomous Energies >> 4872 State Route 9G >> Germantown NY, 12526 >> www.autonomousenergies.com >> (518) 567-1468 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Mar 6 12:33:27 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (william at millersolar.com) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2015 09:33:27 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Corrugated Roof Brackets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <06cc01d05833$a80ee830$f82cb890$@millersolar.com> Adam: We used the Corrubracket, I thought they were sub-standard in many ways. I dislike that the penetration is in the low point of the profile. Also, the threaded hubs stripped easily. The overall feel was that it was flimsy. We subsequently tried the SnapNRack Corrugated Roof Block and found it to be quite adequate. It is displayed on the web page with the 500 series product line. The SNR product works on industrial corrugated metal (narrow ridges and wide valleys) and historic barn corrugations (sine wave profile) alike. They are priced at less than $5.00 each (not including fastener). Coincidentally, I am placing an order for a quantity of them today. We are waiting for a sample of a product made by EJOT. This is a bolt that penetrates through the high point of the corrugation (always a better option) and includes a rain guard of some sort. The rain guard is pictured on industrial roofing and I am not sure it will work on barn corrugation profile. The product has threads for wood or metal. I always like to touch hardware to get a better feel for the quality and usability. I will report when I get my hands on a sample. William Miller From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of AE Solar Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2015 8:01 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Corrugated Roof Brackets Hey Wrenchers, Anyone have feedback or preferences on mounting systems for corrugated roofs? I'm looking at the S-5! CorruBracket . Its for a very small system on a hunting cabin. The pitch is probably about 20 degrees and and I'm concerned about leaks over time. Any recommendations are appreciated. Thanks Adam Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies 4872 State Route 9G Germantown NY, 12526 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Fri Mar 6 15:40:52 2015 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2015 13:40:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Corrugated Roof Brackets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Adam, I'm a big fan of the Corrubracket. We've installed hundreds of them on a whole range of different types of corrugated roofing, with zero problems so far. The peel-and stick sealant that comes attached to the bracket works really well, but it can get pulled aside as the fastener goes through and grabs the sealant. I always try to check the bracket after attachment to make sure that the sealant is fully between the bracket and the roofing, and often I will daub polyurethane caulking on top of the fasteners. The only thing I don't like is the price point and the fact that the span of the four mounting holes often necessitates some form of blocking. -Luke Luke Christy NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 CoSEIA Certified PV Installer Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO. 81144 SGSRenewables at Gmail.com 719.588.3044 www.sgsrenewables.com > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of AE Solar > Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2015 8:01 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Corrugated Roof Brackets > > > > Hey Wrenchers, > > Anyone have feedback or preferences on mounting systems for corrugated > roofs? I'm looking at the S-5! CorruBracket > . Its for a very small system on > a hunting cabin. The pitch is probably about 20 degrees and and I'm > concerned about leaks over time. Any recommendations are appreciated. Thanks > > Adam > > > > > Adam Katzman > Autonomous Energies > 4872 State Route 9G > Germantown NY, 12526 > www.autonomousenergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > ****************************************** From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Fri Mar 6 15:50:45 2015 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (Mike Nelson) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2015 12:50:45 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Corrugated Roof Brackets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7CF939E8-2FF3-47A9-B7D3-36CF64A9DDA8@gmail.com> Here is the sunmodo corrubracket, just received and am installing next week, looks and feels like a quality product. Again, mounting holes on TOP of the corrugation. I am supplying my own stainless steel hex head screws with gaskets. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 131227 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image2.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 121552 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image3.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 120482 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 6, 2015, at 12:40 PM, Luke Christy wrote: > > Adam, > I'm a big fan of the Corrubracket. We've installed hundreds of them on a whole range of different types of corrugated roofing, with zero problems so far. > The peel-and stick sealant that comes attached to the bracket works really well, but it can get pulled aside as the fastener goes through and grabs the sealant. I always try to check the bracket after attachment to make sure that the sealant is fully between the bracket and the roofing, and often I will daub polyurethane caulking on top of the fasteners. > > The only thing I don't like is the price point and the fact that the span of the four mounting holes often necessitates some form of blocking. > > -Luke > > > Luke Christy > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 > NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 > CoSEIA Certified PV Installer > > Solar Gain Services, LLC > PO Box 531 > Monte Vista, CO. 81144 > SGSRenewables at Gmail.com > 719.588.3044 > www.sgsrenewables.com > > >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On >> Behalf Of AE Solar >> Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2015 8:01 AM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Corrugated Roof Brackets >> >> >> >> Hey Wrenchers, >> >> Anyone have feedback or preferences on mounting systems for corrugated >> roofs? I'm looking at the S-5! CorruBracket >> . Its for a very small system on >> a hunting cabin. The pitch is probably about 20 degrees and and I'm >> concerned about leaks over time. Any recommendations are appreciated. Thanks >> >> Adam >> >> >> >> >> Adam Katzman >> Autonomous Energies >> 4872 State Route 9G >> Germantown NY, 12526 >> www.autonomousenergies.com >> (518) 567-1468 >> >> ****************************************** > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From larry at starlightsolar.com Mon Mar 9 17:48:59 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Larry) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2015 14:48:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace SWRC remote Message-ID: <54FE154B.5060301@starlightsolar.com> Does anyone know where I can find a working SWRC remote for Trace PS and SW inverters? -- Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 17:53:26 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2015 11:53:26 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace SWRC remote In-Reply-To: <54FE154B.5060301@starlightsolar.com> References: <54FE154B.5060301@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: I might, its either for a gt or a sw, i dont recall still new in the box in storage in California, how soon do you need it? Jerry On Mar 9, 2015 11:49 AM, "Larry" wrote: > Does anyone know where I can find a working SWRC remote for Trace PS and > SW inverters? > > -- > Thank you, > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Mon Mar 9 19:46:46 2015 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2015 16:46:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FW: Solmetric News - SunEye Discontinued Message-ID: Wrenches, You may have received this rather sad email today too. Does anyone have an alternate shade tool that they like? I still like the old fashioned Pathfinder but it is too time consuming for the quantity of shade shots that we have to process. Best, August Luminalt *From:* Solmetric Corporation [mailto:info at solmetric.ccsend.com] *On Behalf Of *Solmetric Corporation *Sent:* Monday, March 09, 2015 10:08 AM *Subject:* Solmetric News - SunEye Discontinued Having trouble viewing this email? Click here [image: logo] *Solmetric SunEye Product Line and Accessories Discontinued. * Having reached the end of the product lifecycle, the Solmetric SunEye 210 and its line of products - including PV Designer, Solmetric Shade Training, and the SunEye Extension Platform - will no longer be available. The popular Solmetric PV Analyzer I-V Curve Tracer (PVA-1000S) will continue to be available. New software features for the PVA are under development and will be made available as free upgrades in the coming months. "With almost nine years of SunEye shipments, it's been a very successful product line and a fun ride. We are grateful for the many years of enthusiastic SunEye customers," says former Solmetric President, Willard MacDonald. Mr. MacDonald will be continuing as the Vice President of Solar Labs. *Full Press Release to follow:* *Vivint Solar Creates New Technology Team - Solar Labs* *Former Solmetric SunEye Products to be Discontinued; New Research and Development Team to Focus on Advanced Photovoltaic Installation Instruments* LEHI, Utah, Feb. 26, 2015 /PRNewswire/ -- Vivint Solar (NYSE: VSLR), a leading provider of residential solar systems in the United States announced today that its Solmetric team will be fully integrated into the Vivint Solar operating structure and be known as Vivint Solar Labs. The new research and development team will focus on proprietary photovoltaic installation instruments and software. Having reached the end of the product lifecycle, the Solmetric SunEye 210 and its line of products - including PV Designer, Solmetric Shade Training and the SunEye Extension Platform - will no longer be available. PV Analyzer will continue to be available. "We are pleased with the integration of the Solmetric team of engineers and staff into Vivint Solar Labs," said Greg Butterfield, CEO of Vivint Solar. "We look forward to further development of advanced photovoltaic installation technology that will significantly reduce our cost per watt and expedite solar installations for our customers." Vivint Solar acquired Solmetric Corporation in January 2014. Vivint Solar is the second largest installer of solar energy systems to the U.S. residential market with approximately 16 percent market share in the third quarter of 2014, according to GTM Research. In 2014, the company established 23 new sales and installation offices to its 16 previously existing offices. The company plans to expand further in 2015. *About Vivint Solar* Vivint Solar is a leading provider of distributed solar energy - electricity generated by a solar energy system installed at a customer's location - to residential customers in the United States. Vivint Solar's customers pay little to no money upfront, receive significant savings relative to utility generated electricity and continue to benefit from guaranteed energy prices over the 20-year term of their contracts. Vivint Solar finances, designs, installs, monitors and services the solar energy systems to make things easy for its customers. For more information, visit www.vivintsolar.com or follow @VivintSolar. *Note on Forward-looking Statements* This press release contains forward-looking statements as defined within the meaning of the federal securities laws, including statements regarding Vivint Solar's growth plans and prospects, including its plans and prospects for the former Solmetric team and Vivint Solar Labs, and the expected benefits associated with Vivint Solar Labs and the growth of the company's business. Forward-looking statements are inherently subject to risks and uncertainties, some of which cannot be predicted or quantified. Forward-looking statements should not be read as a guarantee of future performance or results, and they will not necessarily be accurate indications of the times at, or by, which such performance or results will be achieved, if at all. These statements are based on current expectations and assumptions regarding future events and business performance as of the date of this press release, and they are subject to risks and uncertainties that could cause actual performance or results to differ materially from those expressed in or suggested by the forward-looking statements, including but not limited to the availability of additional financing on acceptable terms; changes in retail price of traditional utility generated electricity; changes in electric utility policies and regulations; the availability of rebates, tax credits and other incentives that affect the pricing of our offering, including regulations related to net metering; changes in regulations, tariffs and other trade barriers and tax policy affecting the company and its industry; our ability to manage our recent and future growth effectively, including attracting, training and retaining sales personnel and solar energy system installers; the availability and price of solar panels and other system components; and the other risks identified in the registration statements and reports that Vivint Solar files with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission, which are available on the Investor Relations section of our website at www.vivintsolar.com . Vivint Solar does not undertake any obligation to publicly update or revise any forward-looking statement, whether as a result of new information, future developments or otherwise. *Contact* Vivint Solar Kady Cooper Director of Public Relations 415-706-9778 kady.cooper at vivintsolar.com *SunEye Warranty and Service Information* Solmetric will continue to provide technical support and repair services for in- and out-of-warranty SunEye 210 units. Solmetric discontinued support of the SunEye 100/110 in earlier announcements. For more information contact our support team: http://www.solmetric.com/support-form.html *Solmetric at Solar Asset Management - April 2015* [image: PVA1000] Come see a demo of the PVA-1000S I-V Curve Tracer at Solar Asset Management North America, San Francisco, April 1-2, 2015 Solmetric is now on [image: Find us on Facebook] Facebook and [image: View our profile on LinkedIn] LinkedIn. Our pages are updated with upcoming webinars, events, news and articles. Feel free to contact us if you have any questions at 707.823.4600 or by email to support at solmetric.com. *Forward email * This email was sent to eric at luminalt.com by marketing at solmetric.com | Update Profile/Email Address | Rapid removal with SafeUnsubscribe ™ | Privacy Policy . Solmetric Corporation | 117 Morris Street | Suite 100 | Sebastopol | CA | 95472 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Tue Mar 10 05:22:18 2015 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2015 05:22:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace SWRC remote In-Reply-To: <54FE154B.5060301@starlightsolar.com> References: <54FE154B.5060301@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <4B4B4D00-F41B-4ACE-8C5D-43431D04A096@swnl.net> please contact me off list FMI. TUMP On Mar 9, 2015, at 5:48 PM, Larry wrote: > Does anyone know where I can find a working SWRC remote for Trace PS and SW inverters? > > -- > Thank you, > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daveclick at fsec.ucf.edu Tue Mar 10 15:01:29 2015 From: daveclick at fsec.ucf.edu (Dave Click) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2015 15:01:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TL Inverters & Rapid Shutdown In-Reply-To: <00aa01cfe3ea$f796eeb0$e6c4cc10$@com> References: <116701cfe236$d9be1c20$8d3a5460$@com> <41FE255D65D554478C3B17F3EB5410EF911F901A@SVR-US-EXMBX-01.sma.de> <005101cfe3df$d657bc80$83073580$@com> <41FE255D65D554478C3B17F3EB5410EF911F9888@SVR-US-EXMBX-01.sma.de> <00aa01cfe3ea$f796eeb0$e6c4cc10$@com> Message-ID: <54FF3F89.1050704@fsec.ucf.edu> All, please excuse the late addition to the thread, but I just noticed that SMA has a PDF up describing their Rapid Shutdown solution. I think it's just been uploaded in the last few weeks, so in case you hadn't seen it: http://www.sma-america.com/fileadmin/content/www.sma-america.com/Products/Documents/SMA_Rapid_Shutdown.pdf Dave On 2014/10/9 14:00, Randy wrote: > > Steve, > > Will there be a retro kit? > > Thanks > > Randy > > Randy Sadewic > > Cell: 505 570-0137 > > Randy at PositiveEnergySolar.com > > http://positiveenergysolar.com/admin/content/uploads/PES-logo-3.jpg > > *From:*Steve Jefferson [mailto:Steve.Jefferson at sma-america.com] > *Sent:* Thursday, October 09, 2014 11:31 AM > *To:* randy at positiveenergysolar.com; RE-wrenches > *Subject:* RE: [RE-wrenches] TL Inverters & Rapid Shutdown > > Morning Wrenches, > > SMA is developing a product to meet 690.12 requirements. > > It will be shown at SPI in Las Vegas. > > Also, you will still be able to have SPS function with the provided > solution. > > Thanks > > SMA America, LLC > > Steve Jefferson > > Service Line Supervisor > > 3925 Atherton Ave > > Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714 > > U.S.A. > > Tel: +1 916 625 3185 (direct) > > Fax: +1 916 625 0871 > > Mobile: +1 916 622 4253 > > Email: Steve.jefferson at SMA-America.com > > > www.SMA-America.com > > cid:image001.png at 01CF1CFA.FE18BEB0 > > > This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC > confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the > intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email > (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you > are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately > and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and > any attachments thereto. Thank you. > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On Behalf Of *Randy > *Sent:* Thursday, October 09, 2014 9:41 AM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] TL Inverters & Rapid Shutdown > > Hi Wrenches, > > We are being forced to adopt 690.12 Rapid Shutdown requirement based > on several explanations given to our industry: > > 1.otherwise we would be ignoring the life safety and put our fire > fighters lives in peril > > 2.This product can be constructed from readily available, > over-the-counter code compliant components. This (is) to be the > intent of CMP4when compiling the NFPA70. > > We do not want to act like an industry that appears to be fighting > against safety. And we know there are a few products that are code > compliant, micro-inverters (don’t comply with 705.12 (D) (6) because > there are no products), Solaredge, and Tigo (is it approved?) yet this > is not how we choose products. > > And the SMA SPS inverter is not going to work in a 690.12 environment > without complications as far as I can see. > > Appreciate comments that might support the right decision. > > Thanks, > > Randy > > Randy Sadewic > > Cell: 505 570-0137 > > Randy at PositiveEnergySolar.com > > http://positiveenergysolar.com/admin/content/uploads/PES-logo-3.jpg > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 6339 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 30736 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 6339 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Mar 10 18:09:46 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (william at millersolar.com) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2015 15:09:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount Wire Shielding Message-ID: <003001d05b7e$ebe9cf40$c3bd6dc0$@millersolar.com> Colleagues: I am in need of an authoritative source to provide criteria for wire shielding on ground mount PV racking. Ideally this would be an industry publication or learned professional like Bill Brooks that would provide some specific information about the requirement for full coverage wire shielding on the back of readily accessible PV arrays. If you have any sources, I would sincerely appreciate knowing about them. Sincerely, William Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Wed Mar 11 16:19:27 2015 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 13:19:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, Customer in remote location has a strange situation come up on an existing system installed (by others) 6 or so years go. Quad stack VFX3648. Last night gen start was triggered by low voltage - a normal system operation. Approx 1h into charge, they lost 1/2 the circuits in house - L2 de-energized. Caretaker went to check power system and noticed the X240 breakers tripped. Tried to reset but it tripped out right away. So he left it as is and called me in the morning. Here's what I've been able to determine today: - The x240 is installed to bridge L1 & L2 on the load side. - with master inverter on, 3 slaves off, both L1 and L2 energized so suggests x240 is working. - within 10 seconds of generator on and charging, x240 breaker trips (and makes L2 go dark). - loads are minor, ~1,000 w of misc lights and such, isn't all loaded up on one leg. Appreciate any thoughts to remedy. I'm not as familiar with this config as others. Kevin Pegg EA Energy Alternatives Ltd. 37471 Hwy 16 E Telkwa, BC V0J 2X2 250-846-9888 Http://www.EnergyAlternatives.ca From jay at asis.com Wed Mar 11 16:40:42 2015 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 14:40:42 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51406BD7-3B6E-4EF5-9BDB-1C783B740623@asis.com> HI Kevin, I'd start with a new breaker. I've had them go bad. jay peltz power On Mar 11, 2015, at 2:19 PM, "Kevin Pegg" wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > Customer in remote location has a strange situation come up on an existing system installed (by others) 6 or so years go. Quad stack VFX3648. > > Last night gen start was triggered by low voltage - a normal system operation. > > Approx 1h into charge, they lost 1/2 the circuits in house - L2 de-energized. Caretaker went to check power system and noticed the X240 breakers tripped. Tried to reset but it tripped out right away. So he left it as is and called me in the morning. > > Here's what I've been able to determine today: > > - The x240 is installed to bridge L1 & L2 on the load side. > - with master inverter on, 3 slaves off, both L1 and L2 energized so suggests x240 is working. > - within 10 seconds of generator on and charging, x240 breaker trips (and makes L2 go dark). > - loads are minor, ~1,000 w of misc lights and such, isn't all loaded up on one leg. > > Appreciate any thoughts to remedy. I'm not as familiar with this config as others. > > Kevin Pegg > EA Energy Alternatives Ltd. > 37471 Hwy 16 E > Telkwa, BC V0J 2X2 > 250-846-9888 > Http://www.EnergyAlternatives.ca > > > > _ From chris at solarwindworks.com Wed Mar 11 17:59:30 2015 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 14:59:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping Message-ID: Hi Kevin,  I have seen the  X240's  trip off like this when theyare over loaded. When this was happening to us the slave inverters had blown AC  boards and some times Control and FET boards too. We had a hard time diagnosing this as their  green lights were on.  Using a clamp on  amp meter on each inverter's AC IN conductor while charging with the gen set allowed us to compare their charging currents to each other. Typically the ones with blown  AC boards output would be close to zero amps. So the X240's were doing double duty and they will smoke too if the inverters aren't delta with.  Sincerely,  Chris Worcester 530-448-9692   Sent from my Galaxy S®III
-------- Original message --------
From: Kevin Pegg
Date:03/11/2015 1:19 PM (GMT-08:00)
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping
Hello Wrenches, Customer in remote location has a strange situation come up on an existing system installed (by others) 6 or so years go. Quad stack VFX3648. Last night gen start was triggered by low voltage - a normal system operation. Approx 1h into charge, they lost 1/2 the circuits in house - L2 de-energized. Caretaker went to check power system and noticed the X240 breakers tripped. Tried to reset but it tripped out right away. So he left it as is and called me in the morning. Here's what I've been able to determine today: - The x240 is installed to bridge L1 & L2 on the load side. - with master inverter on, 3 slaves off, both L1 and L2 energized so suggests x240 is working. - within 10 seconds of generator on and charging, x240 breaker trips (and makes L2 go dark). - loads are minor, ~1,000 w of misc lights and such, isn't all loaded up on one leg. Appreciate any thoughts to remedy. I'm not as familiar with this config as others. Kevin Pegg EA Energy Alternatives Ltd. 37471 Hwy 16 E Telkwa, BC V0J 2X2 250-846-9888 Http://www.EnergyAlternatives.ca _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Thu Mar 12 02:54:46 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 00:54:46 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar cooker plans request Message-ID: <55013836.9060404@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ericyoungren at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 04:01:13 2015 From: ericyoungren at gmail.com (Eric Youngren) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 01:01:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar cooker plans request In-Reply-To: <55013836.9060404@sindelarsolar.com> References: <55013836.9060404@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Hi Alan, Aprovecho Research Center in Cottage Grove Oregon has a great little free publication for downloading called "Capturing Heat" That book has step by step illustrated instructions for building the classic Maria Telkes box cooker from wood, glass, cardboard, aluminum foil and black paint. They also discuss rocket stoves and haybox cookers and a conical solar cooker. A more recent innovation in solar cooking that I'd love to see grow in popularity is the blazing tube . That one uses an evacuated tube SHW collector in a parabolic trough to heat an oil transfer fluid to move the heat up to a cook box located at a comfortable working height and potentially out of the sunshine completely with the addition of a shade structure or umbrella. It seems like the most practical approach I've seen yet but I've never actually seen one in action. I see from an update on their website that they now have a design that integrates a rocket stove firebox so the cooker can be used with wood or other biomass during cloudy weather or at night. That is more of a project than your friends in Guatemala will probably be able to tackle but I think its a cool innovation in solar cooking. all the best, Eric On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 11:54 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > Wrenches, > Our closest rural neighbor spends part of each year in Guatemala. She > emailed me a request: > > I have a friend who can help me construct a solar oven or cooker if we can > find good plans. Illustrations are the most important. I have access to > pine lumber, glass, but nothing too technologically advanced. > I also want to buy panels when I get back to NM to install on my home > here. I have an electrician friend with experience here. > Any help is greatly appreciated > > This is a bit off of our usual topics, but still consistent with RE. Can > anyone send a good web link or other resource that meets this request? I > will forward it on. > Thanks, Allan > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solar1online at charter.net Thu Mar 12 06:04:38 2015 From: solar1online at charter.net (Bill Loesch) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 05:04:38 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar cooker plans request In-Reply-To: <55013836.9060404@sindelarsolar.com> References: <55013836.9060404@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <550164B6.400@charter.net> Hi Allan, You might remember Sharkey, one of the original, perhaps founding RE-wrenches, who has craftsman skills that would easily qualify at an artist level. He built his own solar thermal panel and in the end acknowledged that (even with his outstanding skills) would have been wiser to buy (rather than build) the finished product. The last time I looked, at least one of the solar cooker manufacturers built their model to be collapsible into a much smaller package than the "traditional bread box" which certainly would aid in storage and shipping. An actual sample is IMHO so very superior to any plans/drawings in as much as it allows the new user to maximize their creative skills to reverse engineer their local knockoff AND compare their results with what is available from an existing commercial product. One of the details that I remember from some 15 years ago was the gasketing on the commercially manufactured unit that kept the heat in the box quite well. In the 13th edition of the Solar Living Sourcebook, copyright 2008, the author mentions "The non-profit Solar Cookers International group provides cookers and simple cardboard and aluminum foil construction plans to developing countries." A Google search yielded the result below. solarcookers.org Good luck, Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 On 12-Mar-15 1:54 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > Wrenches, > Our closest rural neighbor spends part of each year in Guatemala. She > emailed me a request: > > I have a friend who can help me construct a solar oven or cooker > if we can find good plans. Illustrations are the most important. > I have access to pine lumber, glass, but nothing too > technologically advanced. > I also want to buy panels when I get back to NM to install on > my home here. I have an electrician friend with experience here. > Any help is greatly appreciated > > This is a bit off of our usual topics, but still consistent with RE. > Can anyone send a good web link or other resource that meets this > request? I will forward it on. > Thanks, Allan > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > ** > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5646 / Virus Database: 4306/9282 - Release Date: 03/12/15 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reellison at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 07:55:35 2015 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 07:55:35 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fall restraint Message-ID: <010c01d05cbb$7c3c49f0$74b4ddd0$@com> Here is a link I just got to a standing seam roof anchor for a single man attachment for fall restraint. http://www.constructionmagnet.com/metal-builder/fall-protection-distributors -releases-standing-seam-roof-anchor-ssra1 Just thought I would pass it on. Bob Ellison -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From westbrock at positiveenergysolar.com Thu Mar 12 09:33:50 2015 From: westbrock at positiveenergysolar.com (Mark Westbrock) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 07:33:50 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar cooker plans request In-Reply-To: <550164B6.400@charter.net> References: <55013836.9060404@sindelarsolar.com> <550164B6.400@charter.net> Message-ID: About nine years ago, my wife and I built a Navahorno from the plans featured in Home Power #37 (1993). The article is linked here: http://www11.zetatalk.com/docs/Solar/Cooking/Solar_Cookers_2004.pdf The materials should be readily available to your friend in Guatemala. It was fun to build and served us well until we could afford to buy a Global Sun Oven, which gets much hotter. My recollection is that our Navahorno never achieved a temperature above about 300F, but the article claims a high temp of 330F. I'm sure results vary for each individual oven, and of course, climatic conditions. Cheers, Mark ---- *Mark Westbrock* Branch Manager & Employee-Owner NM EE98J Journeyman Electrician NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified PV Technical Sales Positive Energy, Inc. 510 S. Main St. Las Cruces, NM 88001 office: 575-524-2030 cell: 575-640-2432 mw at positiveenergysolar.com www.positiveenergysolar.com On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 4:04 AM, Bill Loesch wrote: > > Hi Allan, > > You might remember Sharkey, one of the original, perhaps founding > RE-wrenches, who has craftsman skills that would easily qualify at an > artist level. He built his own solar thermal panel and in the end > acknowledged that (even with his outstanding skills) would have been wiser > to buy (rather than build) the finished product. > > The last time I looked, at least one of the solar cooker manufacturers > built their model to be collapsible into a much smaller package than the > "traditional bread box" which certainly would aid in storage and shipping. > An actual sample is IMHO so very superior to any plans/drawings in as much > as it allows the new user to maximize their creative skills to reverse > engineer their local knockoff AND compare their results with what is > available from an existing commercial product. One of the details that I > remember from some 15 years ago was the gasketing on the commercially > manufactured unit that kept the heat in the box quite well. > > In the 13th edition of the Solar Living Sourcebook, copyright 2008, the > author mentions "The non-profit Solar Cookers International group provides > cookers and simple cardboard and aluminum foil construction plans to > developing countries." A Google search yielded the result below. > > solarcookers.org > > Good luck, > > Bill Loesch > Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar314 631 1094 > > On 12-Mar-15 1:54 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > > Wrenches, > Our closest rural neighbor spends part of each year in Guatemala. She > emailed me a request: > > I have a friend who can help me construct a solar oven or cooker if we can > find good plans. Illustrations are the most important. I have access to > pine lumber, glass, but nothing too technologically advanced. > I also want to buy panels when I get back to NM to install on my home > here. I have an electrician friend with experience here. > Any help is greatly appreciated > > This is a bit off of our usual topics, but still consistent with RE. Can > anyone send a good web link or other resource that meets this request? I > will forward it on. > Thanks, Allan > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2015.0.5646 / Virus Database: 4306/9282 - Release Date: 03/12/15 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Mar 12 13:14:51 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 11:14:51 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar cooker plans request In-Reply-To: <55013836.9060404@sindelarsolar.com> References: <55013836.9060404@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <5501C98B.9090703@solarray.com> I recall seeing simple cardboard box models being demonstrated by NMSEA at Solar Fest. They would get to about 275 F, while their huge trailer mounted mirror device got to about 325F, as I recall. The main flaw in all solar cookers is no backup source of heat, so that if it gets cloudy, etc. the temp could drop and allow stuff to possibly spoil. I always wanted to come up with a design that used propane if the temp couldn't be maintained with solar. I think we would see much wider adoption of the technology. Adding thermal mass would help too. I think that is one advantage of the traditional Orno adobe ovens: they conserve wood, and heat very evenly. Solar cooking won't replace a skillet, but it lends itself to crockpot type simmering; if the sun is shinning.... R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 3/12/2015 12:54 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > Wrenches, > Our closest rural neighbor spends part of each year in Guatemala. She > emailed me a request: > > I have a friend who can help me construct a solar oven or cooker > if we can find good plans. Illustrations are the most important. > I have access to pine lumber, glass, but nothing too > technologically advanced. > I also want to buy panels when I get back to NM to install on > my home here. I have an electrician friend with experience here. > Any help is greatly appreciated > > This is a bit off of our usual topics, but still consistent with RE. > Can anyone send a good web link or other resource that meets this > request? I will forward it on. > Thanks, Allan > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > ** > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com Thu Mar 12 13:51:43 2015 From: solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com (Solar Energy Solutions) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 10:51:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar cooker plans request In-Reply-To: <5501C98B.9090703@solarray.com> References: <55013836.9060404@sindelarsolar.com> <5501C98B.9090703@solarray.com> Message-ID: I have not followed these guys for a while but they always look to be a great organization.I am thinking they will have everything you need as well as excellent perspective. http://www.solarcookers.org/ Andrew Koyaanisqatsi President Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. Since 1987, Moving Portland and Beyond to an Environmentally Sustainable Future. 503-238-4502 http://www.solarenergyoregon.com/ "Better one's House too little one day than too big all the Year after." > On Mar 12, 2015, at 10:14 AM, Ray Walters wrote: > > I recall seeing simple cardboard box models being demonstrated by NMSEA at Solar Fest. They would get to about 275 F, while their huge trailer mounted mirror device got to about 325F, as I recall. The main flaw in all solar cookers is no backup source of heat, so that if it gets cloudy, etc. the temp could drop and allow stuff to possibly spoil. I always wanted to come up with a design that used propane if the temp couldn't be maintained with solar. I think we would see much wider adoption of the technology. Adding thermal mass would help too. I think that is one advantage of the traditional Orno adobe ovens: they conserve wood, and heat very evenly. > Solar cooking won't replace a skillet, but it lends itself to crockpot type simmering; if the sun is shinning.... > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 >> On 3/12/2015 12:54 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: >> Wrenches, >> Our closest rural neighbor spends part of each year in Guatemala. She emailed me a request: >> I have a friend who can help me construct a solar oven or cooker if we can find good plans. Illustrations are the most important. I have access to pine lumber, glass, but nothing too technologically advanced. >> I also want to buy panels when I get back to NM to install on my home here. I have an electrician friend with experience here. >> Any help is greatly appreciated >> This is a bit off of our usual topics, but still consistent with RE. Can anyone send a good web link or other resource that meets this request? I will forward it on. >> Thanks, Allan >> -- >> Allan Sindelar >> allan at sindelarsolar.com >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional >> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >> 505 780-2738 cell >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dahlsolar at gmail.com Sat Mar 14 20:58:55 2015 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Solar) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2015 19:58:55 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar cooker plans request In-Reply-To: <55013836.9060404@sindelarsolar.com> References: <55013836.9060404@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <3A1C5033-5CBB-4EBA-86DE-FC400624677A@gmail.com> I don't have a link but the MREA in WI does cool stuff with Solar Cookers. Their site might have something. Jesse Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 12, 2015, at 1:54 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > > Wrenches, > Our closest rural neighbor spends part of each year in Guatemala. She emailed me a request: > I have a friend who can help me construct a solar oven or cooker if we can find good plans. Illustrations are the most important. I have access to pine lumber, glass, but nothing too technologically advanced. > I also want to buy panels when I get back to NM to install on my home here. I have an electrician friend with experience here. > Any help is greatly appreciated > This is a bit off of our usual topics, but still consistent with RE. Can anyone send a good web link or other resource that meets this request? I will forward it on. > Thanks, Allan > -- > Allan Sindelar > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > 505 780-2738 cell > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 17:04:11 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 11:04:11 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches OK if the X240 blows the fuse which is on the output of the inverter while the inverter is charging, excessive current must be passing through from one inverter and back to the output of another inverter ( a form of AC coupling gone bad). The time delay fits as the inverter ramps up, I would look at the contactors in each slave as one may be hanging or ther may be a bad board, easy way to test is to isolate each inverter and with a amp meter connected at the X240 see if current goes away in the X240 as it should not be doing much with light loads on the "House" side of the inverters. The X240 is 25 amps while the inverters are 50 amps. Sounds like a interesting one to diagnose. Jerry On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 11:59 AM, Chris Worcester wrote: > Hi Kevin, > I have seen the X240's trip off like this when theyare over loaded. When > this was happening to us the slave inverters had blown AC boards and some > times Control and FET boards too. We had a hard time diagnosing this as > their green lights were on. Using a clamp on amp meter on each > inverter's AC IN conductor while charging with the gen set allowed us to > compare their charging currents to each other. Typically the ones with > blown AC boards output would be close to zero amps. So the X240's were > doing double duty and they will smoke too if the inverters aren't delta > with. > > > Sincerely, > Chris Worcester > 530-448-9692 > Sent from my Galaxy S®III > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Kevin Pegg > Date:03/11/2015 1:19 PM (GMT-08:00) > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping > > Hello Wrenches, > > Customer in remote location has a strange situation come up on an existing > system installed (by others) 6 or so years go. Quad stack VFX3648. > > Last night gen start was triggered by low voltage - a normal system > operation. > > Approx 1h into charge, they lost 1/2 the circuits in house - L2 > de-energized. Caretaker went to check power system and noticed the X240 > breakers tripped. Tried to reset but it tripped out right away. So he left > it as is and called me in the morning. > > Here's what I've been able to determine today: > > - The x240 is installed to bridge L1 & L2 on the load side. > - with master inverter on, 3 slaves off, both L1 and L2 energized so > suggests x240 is working. > - within 10 seconds of generator on and charging, x240 breaker trips (and > makes L2 go dark). > - loads are minor, ~1,000 w of misc lights and such, isn't all loaded up > on one leg. > > Appreciate any thoughts to remedy. I'm not as familiar with this config as > others. > > Kevin Pegg > EA Energy Alternatives Ltd. > 37471 Hwy 16 E > Telkwa, BC V0J 2X2 > 250-846-9888 > Http://www.EnergyAlternatives.ca > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter.parrish at calsolareng.com Sun Mar 15 18:42:04 2015 From: peter.parrish at calsolareng.com (Peter Parrish) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 15:42:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schematic for AES Inverter In-Reply-To: <1392369209.609489.1413978625396.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxuslxltgw07.lxa.perfora.net> References: <20141021075412.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.7eec600f56.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> <1392369209.609489.1413978625396.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxuslxltgw07.lxa.perfora.net> Message-ID: <024301d05f71$43364e40$c9a2eac0$@parrish@calsolareng.com> Wrenches, Many years ago, I had the opportunity to remove four of the old Advanced Energy Systems GC-1000-SA inverters and replace with a single Fronius IG-5000. If I remember correctly, the PV modules were SP-65s! I spend a lot of time teaching PV theory, sales and installation courses in the Los Angeles area, now, and I was wondering if my students could tear down these GC-1000s, and with the aid of component-level (part level) schematic, make sense of how the functionality of a grid tied, sine wave, MPP inverter is realized in a concrete example. Does anyone have an idea as to how I could get a schematic of the GC-1000? As I remember, Siemens Solar acquired the AES assets. Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 NABCEP™ Certified PV Professional #031806-26 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of peter.parrish at calsolareng.com Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 4:50 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Mounting height As I remember, anything that needs to be inspected or manually operated needs to be between 6'-6" and 2'-6". - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. SolarGnosis On October 22, 2014 at 12:28 AM Bob-O Schultze wrote: If it has some sort of switch or CB, the top of the handle cannot be higher than 6'7". As to the lower limit, I think that would depend on the location. In a garage, for example, the AHJ could make a case for 18" as that's where outlets generally live, but there is no lower limit that I'm aware of. On Oct 21, 2014, at 9:02 PM, frenergy wrote: Wrenches, I can't seem to find a reference to the heights allowable for inverter installs, either minimum or maximum (need both). For that matter, AC combiners, DC discos, any switchgear related to the inverter(s). Any help appreciated. Bill Feather River Solar Electric solar powered since 1982 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Sun Mar 15 18:52:18 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 16:52:18 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schematic for AES Inverter In-Reply-To: <024301d05f71$43364e40$c9a2eac0$@parrish@calsolareng.com> References: <20141021075412.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.7eec600f56.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> <1392369209.609489.1413978625396.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxuslxltgw07.lxa.perfora.net> <024301d05f71$43364e40$c9a2eac0$@parrish@calsolareng.com> Message-ID: <55060D22.9060101@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Mon Mar 16 08:39:33 2015 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 08:39:33 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33679084-8323-431D-A892-ABE66FC78843@swnl.net> Have you turned the breaker on the t240 to the off position? One does NOT have to have that operational for the system to operate correctly.The old t240 has about the same parasitic draw as an inverter. Isolate, Isolate, Isolate. If the system functions correctly w/ the t240 off and the stacking is correct on this q stack disconnect it(the t240). Otherwise I would remove the inverter com cables and only connect 1 pair of inverters at a time, reset the mate with the correct com cables connected to P1& P2. Sometimes something so simple as disconnecting & reconnection the mate can have quite a benefit. Again I would, if you are really stuck on having the t240 operational, then try it with each inverter as a single unit then try the second set of inverters. Disconnect the #s1&2 inverters and do the same; connect #s 3&4 P1 & P2, to see exactly which component may be your problem. You are more then happy to contact me off list if you choose. contact info below. Tump On Mar 15, 2015, at 5:04 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches > OK if the X240 blows the fuse which is on the output of the inverter while the inverter is charging, excessive current must be passing through from one inverter and back to the output of another inverter ( a form of AC coupling gone bad). The time delay fits as the inverter ramps up, I would look at the contactors in each slave as one may be hanging or ther may be a bad board, easy way to test is to isolate each inverter and with a amp meter connected at the X240 see if current goes away in the X240 as it should not be doing much with light loads on the "House" side of the inverters. The X240 is 25 amps while the inverters are 50 amps. Sounds like a interesting one to diagnose. > Jerry > > On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 11:59 AM, Chris Worcester wrote: > Hi Kevin, > I have seen the X240's trip off like this when theyare over loaded. When this was happening to us the slave inverters had blown AC boards and some times Control and FET boards too. We had a hard time diagnosing this as their green lights were on. Using a clamp on amp meter on each inverter's AC IN conductor while charging with the gen set allowed us to compare their charging currents to each other. Typically the ones with blown AC boards output would be close to zero amps. So the X240's were doing double duty and they will smoke too if the inverters aren't delta with. > > > Sincerely, > Chris Worcester > 530-448-9692 > Sent from my Galaxy S®III > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Kevin Pegg > Date:03/11/2015 1:19 PM (GMT-08:00) > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping > > Hello Wrenches, > > Customer in remote location has a strange situation come up on an existing system installed (by others) 6 or so years go. Quad stack VFX3648. > > Last night gen start was triggered by low voltage - a normal system operation. > > Approx 1h into charge, they lost 1/2 the circuits in house - L2 de-energized. Caretaker went to check power system and noticed the X240 breakers tripped. Tried to reset but it tripped out right away. So he left it as is and called me in the morning. > > Here's what I've been able to determine today: > > - The x240 is installed to bridge L1 & L2 on the load side. > - with master inverter on, 3 slaves off, both L1 and L2 energized so suggests x240 is working. > - within 10 seconds of generator on and charging, x240 breaker trips (and makes L2 go dark). > - loads are minor, ~1,000 w of misc lights and such, isn't all loaded up on one leg. > > Appreciate any thoughts to remedy. I'm not as familiar with this config as others. > > Kevin Pegg > EA Energy Alternatives Ltd. > 37471 Hwy 16 E > Telkwa, BC V0J 2X2 > 250-846-9888 > Http://www.EnergyAlternatives.ca > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Mon Mar 16 10:19:45 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 08:19:45 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping In-Reply-To: <33679084-8323-431D-A892-ABE66FC78843@swnl.net> References: <33679084-8323-431D-A892-ABE66FC78843@swnl.net> Message-ID: <5506E681.5060806@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Mon Mar 16 10:37:58 2015 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 07:37:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping References: <33679084-8323-431D-A892-ABE66FC78843@swnl.net> Message-ID: Kevin, Not to add any confusion but I recently had to re-program the slave in a 2 VFX with Xfrmr system as it was doing the same thing...the 2 pole xfrmr breaker was tripping when a moderate load was on. Granted this was not happening during charging though. I think I changed the slave from OB slave L1 to OB slave L2 and all was good. It doesn't seem likely the programming in your case would have been messed with having been working well for years prior. Curious to hear though of a solution eventually. Bill Feather River Solar Electric 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 / 6544 fax ----- Original Message ----- From: Tump To: RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, March 16, 2015 5:39 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping Have you turned the breaker on the t240 to the off position? One does NOT have to have that operational for the system to operate correctly.The old t240 has about the same parasitic draw as an inverter. Isolate, Isolate, Isolate. If the system functions correctly w/ the t240 off and the stacking is correct on this q stack disconnect it(the t240). Otherwise I would remove the inverter com cables and only connect 1 pair of inverters at a time, reset the mate with the correct com cables connected to P1& P2. Sometimes something so simple as disconnecting & reconnection the mate can have quite a benefit. Again I would, if you are really stuck on having the t240 operational, then try it with each inverter as a single unit then try the second set of inverters. Disconnect the #s1&2 inverters and do the same; connect #s 3&4 P1 & P2, to see exactly which component may be your problem. You are more then happy to contact me off list if you choose. contact info below. Tump On Mar 15, 2015, at 5:04 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Wrenches OK if the X240 blows the fuse which is on the output of the inverter while the inverter is charging, excessive current must be passing through from one inverter and back to the output of another inverter ( a form of AC coupling gone bad). The time delay fits as the inverter ramps up, I would look at the contactors in each slave as one may be hanging or ther may be a bad board, easy way to test is to isolate each inverter and with a amp meter connected at the X240 see if current goes away in the X240 as it should not be doing much with light loads on the "House" side of the inverters. The X240 is 25 amps while the inverters are 50 amps. Sounds like a interesting one to diagnose. Jerry On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 11:59 AM, Chris Worcester wrote: Hi Kevin, I have seen the X240's trip off like this when theyare over loaded. When this was happening to us the slave inverters had blown AC boards and some times Control and FET boards too. We had a hard time diagnosing this as their green lights were on. Using a clamp on amp meter on each inverter's AC IN conductor while charging with the gen set allowed us to compare their charging currents to each other. Typically the ones with blown AC boards output would be close to zero amps. So the X240's were doing double duty and they will smoke too if the inverters aren't delta with. Sincerely, Chris Worcester 530-448-9692 Sent from my Galaxy S®III -------- Original message -------- From: Kevin Pegg Date:03/11/2015 1:19 PM (GMT-08:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping Hello Wrenches, Customer in remote location has a strange situation come up on an existing system installed (by others) 6 or so years go. Quad stack VFX3648. Last night gen start was triggered by low voltage - a normal system operation. Approx 1h into charge, they lost 1/2 the circuits in house - L2 de-energized. Caretaker went to check power system and noticed the X240 breakers tripped. Tried to reset but it tripped out right away. So he left it as is and called me in the morning. Here's what I've been able to determine today: - The x240 is installed to bridge L1 & L2 on the load side. - with master inverter on, 3 slaves off, both L1 and L2 energized so suggests x240 is working. - within 10 seconds of generator on and charging, x240 breaker trips (and makes L2 go dark). - loads are minor, ~1,000 w of misc lights and such, isn't all loaded up on one leg. Appreciate any thoughts to remedy. I'm not as familiar with this config as others. Kevin Pegg EA Energy Alternatives Ltd. 37471 Hwy 16 E Telkwa, BC V0J 2X2 250-846-9888 Http://www.EnergyAlternatives.ca _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net Solarwinds Northernlights Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 Blair "TUMP" May ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Mon Mar 16 13:51:12 2015 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 10:51:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping Message-ID: Thanks for everyone's advise on this one. I've done as much as I can working with the caretaker remotely and will need to attend myself with some test gear to fully diagnose. This site is remote (10h of driving then 1h boat ride). I generally make a point of avoiding Outback product so feel much better informed to diagnose when onsite - later in the week. Thanks. Curious what is going on with Outback's tech support. I waited on hold for a bit on Wednesday, then left a message for callback and am still waiting for that callback 3 business days later. My client is most upset that Outback can't even bother to return a tech call. His instructions to me are if we find multiple failed components in the system and not simple fixes to remove the gear and replace with "anything as long as it's not Outback". Will advise the list what was discovered once onsite. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of frenergy Sent: March 16, 2015 6:38 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping Kevin, Not to add any confusion but I recently had to re-program the slave in a 2 VFX with Xfrmr system as it was doing the same thing...the 2 pole xfrmr breaker was tripping when a moderate load was on. Granted this was not happening during charging though. I think I changed the slave from OB slave L1 to OB slave L2 and all was good. It doesn't seem likely the programming in your case would have been messed with having been working well for years prior. Curious to hear though of a solution eventually. Bill Feather River Solar Electric 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 / 6544 fax ----- Original Message ----- From: Tump To: RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, March 16, 2015 5:39 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping Have you turned the breaker on the t240 to the off position? One does NOT have to have that operational for the system to operate correctly.The old t240 has about the same parasitic draw as an inverter. Isolate, Isolate, Isolate. If the system functions correctly w/ the t240 off and the stacking is correct on this q stack disconnect it(the t240). Otherwise I would remove the inverter com cables and only connect 1 pair of inverters at a time, reset the mate with the correct com cables connected to P1& P2. Sometimes something so simple as disconnecting & reconnection the mate can have quite a benefit. Again I would, if you are really stuck on having the t240 operational, then try it with each inverter as a single unit then try the second set of inverters. Disconnect the #s1&2 inverters and do the same; connect #s 3&4 P1 & P2, to see exactly which component may be your problem. You are more then happy to contact me off list if you choose. contact info below. Tump On Mar 15, 2015, at 5:04 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Wrenches OK if the X240 blows the fuse which is on the output of the inverter while the inverter is charging, excessive current must be passing through from one inverter and back to the output of another inverter ( a form of AC coupling gone bad). The time delay fits as the inverter ramps up, I would look at the contactors in each slave as one may be hanging or ther may be a bad board, easy way to test is to isolate each inverter and with a amp meter connected at the X240 see if current goes away in the X240 as it should not be doing much with light loads on the "House" side of the inverters. The X240 is 25 amps while the inverters are 50 amps. Sounds like a interesting one to diagnose. Jerry On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 11:59 AM, Chris Worcester < chris at solarwindworks.com> wrote: Hi Kevin, I have seen the X240's trip off like this when theyare over loaded. When this was happening to us the slave inverters had blown AC boards and some times Control and FET boards too. We had a hard time diagnosing this as their green lights were on. Using a clamp on amp meter on each inverter's AC IN conductor while charging with the gen set allowed us to compare their charging currents to each other. Typically the ones with blown AC boards output would be close to zero amps. So the X240's were doing double duty and they will smoke too if the inverters aren't delta with. Sincerely, Chris Worcester 530-448-9692 Sent from my Galaxy S®III -------- Original message -------- From: Kevin Pegg Date:03/11/2015 1:19 PM (GMT-08:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping Hello Wrenches, Customer in remote location has a strange situation come up on an existing system installed (by others) 6 or so years go. Quad stack VFX3648. Last night gen start was triggered by low voltage - a normal system operation. Approx 1h into charge, they lost 1/2 the circuits in house - L2 de-energized. Caretaker went to check power system and noticed the X240 breakers tripped. Tried to reset but it tripped out right away. So he left it as is and called me in the morning. Here's what I've been able to determine today: - The x240 is installed to bridge L1 & L2 on the load side. - with master inverter on, 3 slaves off, both L1 and L2 energized so suggests x240 is working. - within 10 seconds of generator on and charging, x240 breaker trips (and makes L2 go dark). - loads are minor, ~1,000 w of misc lights and such, isn't all loaded up on one leg. Appreciate any thoughts to remedy. I'm not as familiar with this config as others. Kevin Pegg EA Energy Alternatives Ltd. 37471 Hwy 16 E Telkwa, BC V0J 2X2 250-846-9888 Http://www.EnergyAlternatives.ca _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net Solarwinds Northernlights Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 Blair "TUMP" May ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" _____ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Tue Mar 17 14:41:12 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Larry) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 11:41:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank Message-ID: <55087548.2040101@starlightsolar.com> I am repairing and restoring a pair of poorly designed lithium-ion battery bank that suffered over discharge, damaging many cells. After cell replacement I need to perform a discharge test with a 10kW load to verify the remaining capacity. The battery voltage is 105 volts @ 100% SoC and 89.6 volts @ 0% I would like advice on how I can create an economical 10kW load. Water heating element? Wire wound resistors? Are there any GT inverters that will operate at these voltages? Thanks. -- Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems From ray at solarray.com Tue Mar 17 14:59:01 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 12:59:01 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank In-Reply-To: <55087548.2040101@starlightsolar.com> References: <55087548.2040101@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <55087975.8080101@solarray.com> Hi Larry, I think you hit on the best load already: water heater elements rated for 120 v. We have also used dump loads for wind turbines like the air heating elements from Bergey, but they are only about 1 kW each. Another possible source are the resistor banks for old golf carts (before they had controllers, they used resistor banks to operate at slow speeds) A very long time ago, an inverter company had a demonstration that used a large bank of incandescent light bulbs. They used to make a 300 watt bulb for mining, so 33 of those would work. (maybe a few more bulbs, since your voltage is bit lower than 120 v) Cheap electric space heaters would work too. You also might look around at an electronics surplus store. Whatever you do, it sounds like a lot of time and work to set up. Any chance of doing a smaller load test for subsets of the total bank? You might be able to use a standard 12 v battery load tester then. Good Luck. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 3/17/2015 12:41 PM, Larry wrote: > I am repairing and restoring a pair of poorly designed lithium-ion > battery bank that suffered over discharge, damaging many cells. After > cell replacement I need to perform a discharge test with a 10kW load > to verify the remaining capacity. The battery voltage is 105 volts @ > 100% SoC and 89.6 volts @ 0% > > I would like advice on how I can create an economical 10kW load. Water > heating element? Wire wound resistors? Are there any GT inverters that > will operate at these voltages? > > Thanks. > From larry at starlightsolar.com Tue Mar 17 15:40:35 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Larry) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 12:40:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank In-Reply-To: <55087975.8080101@solarray.com> References: <55087548.2040101@starlightsolar.com> <55087975.8080101@solarray.com> Message-ID: <55088333.6020707@starlightsolar.com> Hey Ray, I remember seeing huge banks of light bulbs as loads back in the early 70's. I need to test the entire bank as one unit as the first cell of 32 to reach 2.8 volts determines the capacity for the bank. I just saw Home Depot has a 2kW 120 volt water heater for $10. Guess I need to do some welding. Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On 3/17/15 11:59 AM, Ray Walters wrote: > Hi Larry, > > I think you hit on the best load already: water heater elements rated > for 120 v. We have also used dump loads for wind turbines like the > air heating elements from Bergey, but they are only about 1 kW each. > Another possible source are the resistor banks for old golf carts > (before they had controllers, they used resistor banks to operate at > slow speeds) > A very long time ago, an inverter company had a demonstration that > used a large bank of incandescent light bulbs. They used to make a > 300 watt bulb for mining, so 33 of those would work. (maybe a few > more bulbs, since your voltage is bit lower than 120 v) Cheap > electric space heaters would work too. You also might look around at > an electronics surplus store. > Whatever you do, it sounds like a lot of time and work to set up. Any > chance of doing a smaller load test for subsets of the total bank? > You might be able to use a standard 12 v battery load tester then. > > Good Luck. > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > On 3/17/2015 12:41 PM, Larry wrote: >> I am repairing and restoring a pair of poorly designed lithium-ion >> battery bank that suffered over discharge, damaging many cells. After >> cell replacement I need to perform a discharge test with a 10kW load >> to verify the remaining capacity. The battery voltage is 105 volts @ >> 100% SoC and 89.6 volts @ 0% >> >> I would like advice on how I can create an economical 10kW load. >> Water heating element? Wire wound resistors? Are there any GT >> inverters that will operate at these voltages? >> >> Thanks. >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > From ray at solarray.com Tue Mar 17 16:07:00 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 14:07:00 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank In-Reply-To: <55088333.6020707@starlightsolar.com> References: <55087548.2040101@starlightsolar.com> <55087975.8080101@solarray.com> <55088333.6020707@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <55088964.6010508@solarray.com> Those look like your solution. Also water can take more heat with less trouble than air heaters. I've had air heaters start melting things, etc. You can just install those in the side of a 55 gal barrel with a bulkhead fitting, or yes, weld the appropriate plumbing fitting to the side of the barrel. Might even be able to install them into a section of pipe with Ts and run water through it to cool the elements. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 3/17/2015 1:40 PM, Larry wrote: > Hey Ray, > > I remember seeing huge banks of light bulbs as loads back in the early > 70's. > > I need to test the entire bank as one unit as the first cell of 32 to > reach 2.8 volts determines the capacity for the bank. I just saw Home > Depot has a 2kW 120 volt water heater for $10. Guess I need to do some > welding. > > Thank you, > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > On 3/17/15 11:59 AM, Ray Walters wrote: >> Hi Larry, >> >> I think you hit on the best load already: water heater elements rated >> for 120 v. We have also used dump loads for wind turbines like the >> air heating elements from Bergey, but they are only about 1 kW each. >> Another possible source are the resistor banks for old golf carts >> (before they had controllers, they used resistor banks to operate at >> slow speeds) >> A very long time ago, an inverter company had a demonstration that >> used a large bank of incandescent light bulbs. They used to make a >> 300 watt bulb for mining, so 33 of those would work. (maybe a few >> more bulbs, since your voltage is bit lower than 120 v) Cheap >> electric space heaters would work too. You also might look around at >> an electronics surplus store. >> Whatever you do, it sounds like a lot of time and work to set up. Any >> chance of doing a smaller load test for subsets of the total bank? >> You might be able to use a standard 12 v battery load tester then. >> >> Good Luck. >> >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 3/17/2015 12:41 PM, Larry wrote: >>> I am repairing and restoring a pair of poorly designed lithium-ion >>> battery bank that suffered over discharge, damaging many cells. >>> After cell replacement I need to perform a discharge test with a >>> 10kW load to verify the remaining capacity. The battery voltage is >>> 105 volts @ 100% SoC and 89.6 volts @ 0% >>> >>> I would like advice on how I can create an economical 10kW load. >>> Water heating element? Wire wound resistors? Are there any GT >>> inverters that will operate at these voltages? >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 16:01:12 2015 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 16:01:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank In-Reply-To: <55087548.2040101@starlightsolar.com> References: <55087548.2040101@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: I would rent a load bank, it will give you the versatility to change loads as needed. On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 2:41 PM, Larry wrote: > I am repairing and restoring a pair of poorly designed lithium-ion battery > bank that suffered over discharge, damaging many cells. After cell > replacement I need to perform a discharge test with a 10kW load to verify > the remaining capacity. The battery voltage is 105 volts @ 100% SoC and > 89.6 volts @ 0% > > I would like advice on how I can create an economical 10kW load. Water > heating element? Wire wound resistors? Are there any GT inverters that will > operate at these voltages? > > Thanks. > > -- > > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Tue Mar 17 15:49:32 2015 From: Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com (Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 15:49:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank In-Reply-To: <55087548.2040101@starlightsolar.com> References: <55087548.2040101@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Hi: Please be careful when working with solar system size Lithium packs on the cell level. We have been doing on-going testing with Lion battery packs from various suppliers and even with their built in temp sensors and other BMS circuits, have already had two "thermal events". Lion is very unforgiving with regards low state of charge, high state of charge, temperature (110F is the max temp at which they should be charged and 140F is the max they can handle). Given the low thermal mass of Lion cells, a high rate of discharge or charge quickly gets the cell temperature into the 110F+ range. As soon as you cross the line things start happening and if the BMS doesn't put a stop to it by turning the battery pack off, it's a very quick slide down the hill from there. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Larry To: RE-wrenches , Date: 03/17/2015 11:41 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank Sent by: "RE-wrenches" I am repairing and restoring a pair of poorly designed lithium-ion battery bank that suffered over discharge, damaging many cells. After cell replacement I need to perform a discharge test with a 10kW load to verify the remaining capacity. The battery voltage is 105 volts @ 100% SoC and 89.6 volts @ 0% I would like advice on how I can create an economical 10kW load. Water heating element? Wire wound resistors? Are there any GT inverters that will operate at these voltages? Thanks. -- Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Tue Mar 17 16:11:52 2015 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jefferson Jarvis) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 15:11:52 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank In-Reply-To: <55088964.6010508@solarray.com> References: <55087548.2040101@starlightsolar.com> <55087975.8080101@solarray.com> <55088333.6020707@starlightsolar.com> <55088964.6010508@solarray.com> Message-ID: <55088A88.7040501@aprsworld.com> On 3/17/2015 3:07 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > Those look like your solution. Also water can take more heat with less > trouble than air heaters. I've had air heaters start melting things, > etc. You can just install those in the side of a 55 gal barrel with a > bulkhead fitting, or yes, weld the appropriate plumbing fitting to the > side of the barrel. Might even be able to install them into a section of > pipe with Ts and run water through it to cool the elements. Note that water heater elements are NPSM (National Pipe Straight Mechanical) and not NPT. So you need that type of half coupling or "bung" to weld in. The vegi-oil people seem to have this sort of stuff as they build water heater elements into things. -- -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 www.aprsworld.com From mjames at outbackpower.com Tue Mar 17 16:21:30 2015 From: mjames at outbackpower.com (Matt James) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 20:21:30 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1A9E4057FEE5F848B47583910E2B2E70A1FD1E@bliexch.alpha-bli.com> Kevin, Not sure what happened on the dropped communication, but I had responded to you last week with some possible answers and things to check. I think I made the mistake of replying directly to your email address and not sending to the entire Re-Wrenches forum, sorry for that as I know this is information that could be helpful to others as well. In any case, Tump is right -- on an existing system where everything has been working fine for some time but now isn't, the key is to isolate, isolate, isolate. Turn off all AC input, output and transformer breakers, then wake up each inverter by increasing the Power Save Level Master Adjust one step at a time. Confirm proper AC voltage line to neutral at the inverter's AC output terminals - all breakers are still open. Close the breaker to the X240 balancing transformer, then close the AC output breakers of one inverter at a time, starting with the Master. Confirm that all inverters are on and have proper voltage and phasing by verifying proper AC voltage line to neutral, line to line as measured at the AC output terminals and to the output bus bars - all inverters should show 120 L-N, and any inverters programmed as L1 Slaves should show 0v L-L to the Master and 240v L-L to L2 Slaves. L2 slaves This establishes a baseline to ensure that all the power electronics, magnetics, wiring and programming are working properly. Next, start the generator and close all the input breakers. Measure AC voltage at the inverter's input terminals, confirm that each is seeing the proper voltage and phasing. Verify that the inverters sync to and connect to the generator, and begin to charge. Measure the AC current on both phases of the generator, and verify that they are balanced. Some potential issues are: 1. Bad X240 breaker. Take a spare, 20A 2 pole DIN. 2. Transformer insulation damaged, typically by overheating. Rather unlikely, but possible. 3. Failed or mis-wired or mis-programmed inverter, likely on L2. Due to the distance to the site, consider taking a replacement board set with you. Alternately, the system can operate on both legs with the other inverters, even if it's an uneven number, through OutBack Stacking until you can schedule another trip. 4. Heavily imbalanced load or generator. If the charging currents on the generator are imbalanced, one possible solution is to disconnect the neutral from the generator at the power system end. This presents a pure 240v load to the genset, which will force the currents to be balanced on both phases. Feel free to contact me directly if you have any problems or questions. Best Regards, Matt James Applications Engineering Manager OutBack Power Technologies Inc. Direct: (360) 618-4364 Cell: (360) 618-2869 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Pegg Sent: Monday, March 16, 2015 10:51 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping Thanks for everyone's advise on this one. I've done as much as I can working with the caretaker remotely and will need to attend myself with some test gear to fully diagnose. This site is remote (10h of driving then 1h boat ride). I generally make a point of avoiding Outback product so feel much better informed to diagnose when onsite - later in the week. Thanks. Curious what is going on with Outback's tech support. I waited on hold for a bit on Wednesday, then left a message for callback and am still waiting for that callback 3 business days later. My client is most upset that Outback can't even bother to return a tech call. His instructions to me are if we find multiple failed components in the system and not simple fixes to remove the gear and replace with "anything as long as it's not Outback". Will advise the list what was discovered once onsite. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of frenergy Sent: March 16, 2015 6:38 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping Kevin, Not to add any confusion but I recently had to re-program the slave in a 2 VFX with Xfrmr system as it was doing the same thing...the 2 pole xfrmr breaker was tripping when a moderate load was on. Granted this was not happening during charging though. I think I changed the slave from OB slave L1 to OB slave L2 and all was good. It doesn't seem likely the programming in your case would have been messed with having been working well for years prior. Curious to hear though of a solution eventually. Bill Feather River Solar Electric 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 / 6544 fax ----- Original Message ----- From: Tump To: RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, March 16, 2015 5:39 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping Have you turned the breaker on the t240 to the off position? One does NOT have to have that operational for the system to operate correctly.The old t240 has about the same parasitic draw as an inverter. Isolate, Isolate, Isolate. If the system functions correctly w/ the t240 off and the stacking is correct on this q stack disconnect it(the t240). Otherwise I would remove the inverter com cables and only connect 1 pair of inverters at a time, reset the mate with the correct com cables connected to P1& P2. Sometimes something so simple as disconnecting & reconnection the mate can have quite a benefit. Again I would, if you are really stuck on having the t240 operational, then try it with each inverter as a single unit then try the second set of inverters. Disconnect the #s1&2 inverters and do the same; connect #s 3&4 P1 & P2, to see exactly which component may be your problem. You are more then happy to contact me off list if you choose. contact info below. Tump On Mar 15, 2015, at 5:04 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Wrenches OK if the X240 blows the fuse which is on the output of the inverter while the inverter is charging, excessive current must be passing through from one inverter and back to the output of another inverter ( a form of AC coupling gone bad). The time delay fits as the inverter ramps up, I would look at the contactors in each slave as one may be hanging or ther may be a bad board, easy way to test is to isolate each inverter and with a amp meter connected at the X240 see if current goes away in the X240 as it should not be doing much with light loads on the "House" side of the inverters. The X240 is 25 amps while the inverters are 50 amps. Sounds like a interesting one to diagnose. Jerry On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 11:59 AM, Chris Worcester > wrote: Hi Kevin, I have seen the X240's trip off like this when theyare over loaded. When this was happening to us the slave inverters had blown AC boards and some times Control and FET boards too. We had a hard time diagnosing this as their green lights were on. Using a clamp on amp meter on each inverter's AC IN conductor while charging with the gen set allowed us to compare their charging currents to each other. Typically the ones with blown AC boards output would be close to zero amps. So the X240's were doing double duty and they will smoke too if the inverters aren't delta with. Sincerely, Chris Worcester 530-448-9692 Sent from my Galaxy S(r)III -------- Original message -------- From: Kevin Pegg Date:03/11/2015 1:19 PM (GMT-08:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping Hello Wrenches, Customer in remote location has a strange situation come up on an existing system installed (by others) 6 or so years go. Quad stack VFX3648. Last night gen start was triggered by low voltage - a normal system operation. Approx 1h into charge, they lost 1/2 the circuits in house - L2 de-energized. Caretaker went to check power system and noticed the X240 breakers tripped. Tried to reset but it tripped out right away. So he left it as is and called me in the morning. Here's what I've been able to determine today: - The x240 is installed to bridge L1 & L2 on the load side. - with master inverter on, 3 slaves off, both L1 and L2 energized so suggests x240 is working. - within 10 seconds of generator on and charging, x240 breaker trips (and makes L2 go dark). - loads are minor, ~1,000 w of misc lights and such, isn't all loaded up on one leg. Appreciate any thoughts to remedy. I'm not as familiar with this config as others. Kevin Pegg EA Energy Alternatives Ltd. 37471 Hwy 16 E Telkwa, BC V0J 2X2 250-846-9888 Http://www.EnergyAlternatives.ca _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net Solarwinds Northernlights Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 Blair "TUMP" May ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" ________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Mar 17 16:35:10 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 14:35:10 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank In-Reply-To: <55088A88.7040501@aprsworld.com> References: <55087548.2040101@starlightsolar.com> <55087975.8080101@solarray.com> <55088333.6020707@starlightsolar.com> <55088964.6010508@solarray.com> <55088A88.7040501@aprsworld.com> Message-ID: <55088FFE.2070801@solarray.com> Hi James; So couldn't Larry weld in rigid conduit fittings? Aren't they NPSM, or do I have that wrong? I suppose the Zinc plating would make a messier weld and possibly be poisonous.... Also to Chris Mason, I was not aware that load banks were available for rent. That sounds like a good option to consider. Do you have a recommendation on who rents those? 3rd response to Jarmo: do you have any pictures of the Li+ thermal issues? Are we talking structure fire potential, or just destruction of the batteries themselves? Is this another reason not to use plywood battery boxes? R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 > Note that water heater elements are NPSM (National Pipe Straight > Mechanical) and not NPT. So you need that type of half coupling or > "bung" to weld in. The vegi-oil people seem to have this sort of stuff > as they build water heater elements into things. > > From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Tue Mar 17 16:56:15 2015 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 13:56:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping Message-ID: Thanks, Matt for the details here. I will be heading out to the site in the next little while and will report back what was found. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of Matt James Sent: March 17, 2015 12:22 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping Kevin, Not sure what happened on the dropped communication, but I had responded to you last week with some possible answers and things to check. I think I made the mistake of replying directly to your email address and not sending to the entire Re-Wrenches forum, sorry for that as I know this is information that could be helpful to others as well. In any case, Tump is right -- on an existing system where everything has been working fine for some time but now isn't, the key is to isolate, isolate, isolate. Turn off all AC input, output and transformer breakers, then wake up each inverter by increasing the Power Save Level Master Adjust one step at a time. Confirm proper AC voltage line to neutral at the inverter's AC output terminals - all breakers are still open. Close the breaker to the X240 balancing transformer, then close the AC output breakers of one inverter at a time, starting with the Master. Confirm that all inverters are on and have proper voltage and phasing by verifying proper AC voltage line to neutral, line to line as measured at the AC output terminals and to the output bus bars - all inverters should show 120 L-N, and any inverters programmed as L1 Slaves should show 0v L-L to the Master and 240v L-L to L2 Slaves. L2 slaves This establishes a baseline to ensure that all the power electronics, magnetics, wiring and programming are working properly. Next, start the generator and close all the input breakers. Measure AC voltage at the inverter's input terminals, confirm that each is seeing the proper voltage and phasing. Verify that the inverters sync to and connect to the generator, and begin to charge. Measure the AC current on both phases of the generator, and verify that they are balanced. Some potential issues are: 1. Bad X240 breaker. Take a spare, 20A 2 pole DIN. 2. Transformer insulation damaged, typically by overheating. Rather unlikely, but possible. 3. Failed or mis-wired or mis-programmed inverter, likely on L2. Due to the distance to the site, consider taking a replacement board set with you. Alternately, the system can operate on both legs with the other inverters, even if it's an uneven number, through OutBack Stacking until you can schedule another trip. 4. Heavily imbalanced load or generator. If the charging currents on the generator are imbalanced, one possible solution is to disconnect the neutral from the generator at the power system end. This presents a pure 240v load to the genset, which will force the currents to be balanced on both phases. Feel free to contact me directly if you have any problems or questions. Best Regards, Matt James Applications Engineering Manager OutBack Power Technologies Inc. Direct: (360) 618-4364 Cell: (360) 618-2869 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Pegg Sent: Monday, March 16, 2015 10:51 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping Thanks for everyone's advise on this one. I've done as much as I can working with the caretaker remotely and will need to attend myself with some test gear to fully diagnose. This site is remote (10h of driving then 1h boat ride). I generally make a point of avoiding Outback product so feel much better informed to diagnose when onsite - later in the week. Thanks. Curious what is going on with Outback's tech support. I waited on hold for a bit on Wednesday, then left a message for callback and am still waiting for that callback 3 business days later. My client is most upset that Outback can't even bother to return a tech call. His instructions to me are if we find multiple failed components in the system and not simple fixes to remove the gear and replace with "anything as long as it's not Outback". Will advise the list what was discovered once onsite. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [ mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of frenergy Sent: March 16, 2015 6:38 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping Kevin, Not to add any confusion but I recently had to re-program the slave in a 2 VFX with Xfrmr system as it was doing the same thing...the 2 pole xfrmr breaker was tripping when a moderate load was on. Granted this was not happening during charging though. I think I changed the slave from OB slave L1 to OB slave L2 and all was good. It doesn't seem likely the programming in your case would have been messed with having been working well for years prior. Curious to hear though of a solution eventually. Bill Feather River Solar Electric 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 / 6544 fax ----- Original Message ----- From: Tump To: RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, March 16, 2015 5:39 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping Have you turned the breaker on the t240 to the off position? One does NOT have to have that operational for the system to operate correctly.The old t240 has about the same parasitic draw as an inverter. Isolate, Isolate, Isolate. If the system functions correctly w/ the t240 off and the stacking is correct on this q stack disconnect it(the t240). Otherwise I would remove the inverter com cables and only connect 1 pair of inverters at a time, reset the mate with the correct com cables connected to P1& P2. Sometimes something so simple as disconnecting & reconnection the mate can have quite a benefit. Again I would, if you are really stuck on having the t240 operational, then try it with each inverter as a single unit then try the second set of inverters. Disconnect the #s1&2 inverters and do the same; connect #s 3&4 P1 & P2, to see exactly which component may be your problem. You are more then happy to contact me off list if you choose. contact info below. Tump On Mar 15, 2015, at 5:04 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Wrenches OK if the X240 blows the fuse which is on the output of the inverter while the inverter is charging, excessive current must be passing through from one inverter and back to the output of another inverter ( a form of AC coupling gone bad). The time delay fits as the inverter ramps up, I would look at the contactors in each slave as one may be hanging or ther may be a bad board, easy way to test is to isolate each inverter and with a amp meter connected at the X240 see if current goes away in the X240 as it should not be doing much with light loads on the "House" side of the inverters. The X240 is 25 amps while the inverters are 50 amps. Sounds like a interesting one to diagnose. Jerry On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 11:59 AM, Chris Worcester < chris at solarwindworks.com> wrote: Hi Kevin, I have seen the X240's trip off like this when theyare over loaded. When this was happening to us the slave inverters had blown AC boards and some times Control and FET boards too. We had a hard time diagnosing this as their green lights were on. Using a clamp on amp meter on each inverter's AC IN conductor while charging with the gen set allowed us to compare their charging currents to each other. Typically the ones with blown AC boards output would be close to zero amps. So the X240's were doing double duty and they will smoke too if the inverters aren't delta with. Sincerely, Chris Worcester 530-448-9692 Sent from my Galaxy S®III -------- Original message -------- From: Kevin Pegg Date:03/11/2015 1:19 PM (GMT-08:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping Hello Wrenches, Customer in remote location has a strange situation come up on an existing system installed (by others) 6 or so years go. Quad stack VFX3648. Last night gen start was triggered by low voltage - a normal system operation. Approx 1h into charge, they lost 1/2 the circuits in house - L2 de-energized. Caretaker went to check power system and noticed the X240 breakers tripped. Tried to reset but it tripped out right away. So he left it as is and called me in the morning. Here's what I've been able to determine today: - The x240 is installed to bridge L1 & L2 on the load side. - with master inverter on, 3 slaves off, both L1 and L2 energized so suggests x240 is working. - within 10 seconds of generator on and charging, x240 breaker trips (and makes L2 go dark). - loads are minor, ~1,000 w of misc lights and such, isn't all loaded up on one leg. Appreciate any thoughts to remedy. I'm not as familiar with this config as others. Kevin Pegg EA Energy Alternatives Ltd. 37471 Hwy 16 E Telkwa, BC V0J 2X2 250-846-9888 Http://www.EnergyAlternatives.ca _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net Solarwinds Northernlights Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 Blair "TUMP" May ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" _____ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Tue Mar 17 17:06:05 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Larry) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 14:06:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank In-Reply-To: <55088964.6010508@solarray.com> References: <55087548.2040101@starlightsolar.com> <55087975.8080101@solarray.com> <55088333.6020707@starlightsolar.com> <55088964.6010508@solarray.com> Message-ID: <5508973D.5000000@starlightsolar.com> I was thinking of mounting the water heat elements into an aluminum plate, laying the plate flat over a 55 gallon drum and filling the water level up to the plate. Stratified water may make the top pretty hot but I guess it will work. Larry On 3/17/15 1:07 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > Those look like your solution. Also water can take more heat with > less trouble than air heaters. I've had air heaters start melting > things, etc. You can just install those in the side of a 55 gal > barrel with a bulkhead fitting, or yes, weld the appropriate plumbing > fitting to the side of the barrel. Might even be able to install them > into a section of pipe with Ts and run water through it to cool the > elements. > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > On 3/17/2015 1:40 PM, Larry wrote: >> Hey Ray, >> >> I remember seeing huge banks of light bulbs as loads back in the >> early 70's. >> >> I need to test the entire bank as one unit as the first cell of 32 to >> reach 2.8 volts determines the capacity for the bank. I just saw Home >> Depot has a 2kW 120 volt water heater for $10. Guess I need to do >> some welding. >> >> Thank you, >> >> Larry Crutcher >> Starlight Solar Power Systems >> >> On 3/17/15 11:59 AM, Ray Walters wrote: >>> Hi Larry, >>> >>> I think you hit on the best load already: water heater elements >>> rated for 120 v. We have also used dump loads for wind turbines >>> like the air heating elements from Bergey, but they are only about 1 >>> kW each. Another possible source are the resistor banks for old >>> golf carts (before they had controllers, they used resistor banks to >>> operate at slow speeds) >>> A very long time ago, an inverter company had a demonstration that >>> used a large bank of incandescent light bulbs. They used to make a >>> 300 watt bulb for mining, so 33 of those would work. (maybe a few >>> more bulbs, since your voltage is bit lower than 120 v) Cheap >>> electric space heaters would work too. You also might look around >>> at an electronics surplus store. >>> Whatever you do, it sounds like a lot of time and work to set up. >>> Any chance of doing a smaller load test for subsets of the total >>> bank? You might be able to use a standard 12 v battery load tester >>> then. >>> >>> Good Luck. >>> >>> R.Ray Walters >>> CTO, Solarray, Inc >>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >>> Licensed Master Electrician >>> Solar Design Engineer >>> 303 505-8760 >>> >>> On 3/17/2015 12:41 PM, Larry wrote: >>>> I am repairing and restoring a pair of poorly designed lithium-ion >>>> battery bank that suffered over discharge, damaging many cells. >>>> After cell replacement I need to perform a discharge test with a >>>> 10kW load to verify the remaining capacity. The battery voltage is >>>> 105 volts @ 100% SoC and 89.6 volts @ 0% >>>> >>>> I would like advice on how I can create an economical 10kW load. >>>> Water heating element? Wire wound resistors? Are there any GT >>>> inverters that will operate at these voltages? >>>> >>>> Thanks. >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > From Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Tue Mar 17 17:12:03 2015 From: Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com (Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 17:12:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank In-Reply-To: <55088FFE.2070801@solarray.com> References: <55087548.2040101@starlightsolar.com> <55087975.8080101@solarray.com> <55088333.6020707@starlightsolar.com> <55088964.6010508@solarray.com> <55088A88.7040501@aprsworld.com> <55088FFE.2070801@solarray.com> Message-ID: Hi: I cant put out anything which may show proprietary info, but here are a couple close up fragments of images of failure trials where the BMS system was not able to catch the issue before the event went out of bounds thermal. As you can see some kind of corrosive gas coated many surfaces inside the battery pack while reacting with and discoloring any aluminium which was in the near vicinity of the cells I definitely would not use any material other than metal or some other very chemical/heat/fire resistant materials in and around Lion cells and I'd vent the battery pack to the outdoors. I'm sure there will be many perfectly reliable and safe packs, but soon there will also be something like a melted laptop or cell phone on steroids as a typical solar system battery has about 3000X as much energy as the cell phone/laptop. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Ray Walters To: RE-wrenches , Date: 03/17/2015 01:35 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank Sent by: "RE-wrenches" Hi James; So couldn't Larry weld in rigid conduit fittings? Aren't they NPSM, or do I have that wrong? I suppose the Zinc plating would make a messier weld and possibly be poisonous.... Also to Chris Mason, I was not aware that load banks were available for rent. That sounds like a good option to consider. Do you have a recommendation on who rents those? 3rd response to Jarmo: do you have any pictures of the Li+ thermal issues? Are we talking structure fire potential, or just destruction of the batteries themselves? Is this another reason not to use plywood battery boxes? R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 > Note that water heater elements are NPSM (National Pipe Straight > Mechanical) and not NPT. So you need that type of half coupling or > "bung" to weld in. The vegi-oil people seem to have this sort of stuff > as they build water heater elements into things. > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Tue Mar 17 17:36:45 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Larry) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 14:36:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank In-Reply-To: References: <55087548.2040101@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <55089E6D.4040508@starlightsolar.com> Hi Jarmo, One of the reasons I chose to sell and install GBS batteries is the chemistry is safer, they have vent caps (like AGM) and they offer an integrated solution where the battery, EMS/BMS and CPU are all designed specifically for each other instead of adding various parts from different manufacturers. The chemistry is LFMP (lithium iron manganese) not LFP. There are seven monitored fault events, including temperature, current and voltage, that will disconnect the battery from any load or any charge source. Since we are installing in RV's, there are multiple charge sources and all must be controlled. The systems I design do this very well. Also, our charge and discharge rates are far lower than the industry normally expects; rarely reaching .5C. I have seen private videos of destructive testing of GBS cells. Steel rods fired through entire packs; slow crush tests from top and sides, impact tests, even cells blown away on a gun range (that was more for fun I think as not too likely you will experience that). No fire, no thermal events. Bottom line for me is these are likely the safest Lithium battery I can offer. Many customers have already had shut down events because they were not being responsible. A simple reset and they're back in business. What was the lithium chemistry that you had trouble with? Thank you, Larry Crutcher On 3/17/15 12:49 PM, Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com wrote: > Hi: > > Please be careful when working with solar system size Lithium packs on > the cell level. > > We have been doing on-going testing with Lion battery packs from > various suppliers and even with their built in temp sensors and other > BMS circuits, have already had two "thermal events". > > Lion is very unforgiving with regards low state of charge, high state > of charge, temperature (110F is the max temp at which they should be > charged and 140F is the max they can handle). > > Given the low thermal mass of Lion cells, a high rate of discharge or > charge quickly gets the cell temperature into the 110F+ range. > > As soon as you cross the line things start happening and if the BMS > doesn't put a stop to it by turning the battery pack off, it's a very > quick slide down the hill from there. > > JARMO > _____________________________________________________________________________________ > * > Jarmo Venalainen* | *Schneider Electric **| Xantrex Brand* | > *CANADA* | *Sales Application Engineer* * > Phone:* +604-422-2528 | *Tech Support:* 800-670-0707 | *Mobile:* > +604-505-0291 * > Email:* _jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com_ > | > *Site:*_www.Xantrex.com_ | *Address:* 3700 > Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 > > > > > > > > *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail > > > > From: Larry > To: RE-wrenches , > Date: 03/17/2015 11:41 AM > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank > Sent by: "RE-wrenches" > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 17:38:02 2015 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 17:38:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank In-Reply-To: <55088FFE.2070801@solarray.com> References: <55087548.2040101@starlightsolar.com> <55087975.8080101@solarray.com> <55088333.6020707@starlightsolar.com> <55088964.6010508@solarray.com> <55088A88.7040501@aprsworld.com> <55088FFE.2070801@solarray.com> Message-ID: Load banks are for rent, I am in the generator business and it is a common requirement to provide a load bank upon installation. http://www.comrent.com/Solutions/load-bank-rentals.html On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 4:35 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > Hi James; > > So couldn't Larry weld in rigid conduit fittings? Aren't they NPSM, or do > I have that wrong? I suppose the Zinc plating would make a messier weld and > possibly be poisonous.... > > Also to Chris Mason, I was not aware that load banks were available for > rent. That sounds like a good option to consider. Do you have a > recommendation on who rents those? > > 3rd response to Jarmo: do you have any pictures of the Li+ thermal > issues? Are we talking structure fire potential, or just destruction of > the batteries themselves? > Is this another reason not to use plywood battery boxes? > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > > Note that water heater elements are NPSM (National Pipe Straight >> Mechanical) and not NPT. So you need that type of half coupling or "bung" >> to weld in. The vegi-oil people seem to have this sort of stuff as they >> build water heater elements into things. >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Tue Mar 17 21:11:40 2015 From: Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com (Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 21:11:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank In-Reply-To: <55089E6D.4040508@starlightsolar.com> References: <55087548.2040101@starlightsolar.com> <55089E6D.4040508@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Hi: I may sound like I'm a detractor against using Lion, but that's not it. What I want to bring to light is that, being as the technology is new, not all the issues are known and there are things to learn for all early adopters in the foreseeable future. >From what I can gather the framework for the issues lies in that Lion technology is based on intercalation, that is, a reversible insertion and removal of Li molecules into compounds with microscopically layered structures. This predicates that there must be no chemical reaction in the battery, but rather only the shelving of the highly reactive Li ions. If there are any chemical reactions taking place, then in the least the battery performance is compromised and in the most there is a thermal event or worse There are some very robust Lion battery packs, a favorite of mine being from a local company from Vancouver, (well Richmond, which is a suburb of Vancouver). It's a small company, but they have designed, developed, built and successfully approved their 6 kWh Lion pack for use in large car ferries in Scandinavia. The ferries have stacks of these packs in the 100's, in the MWh size. It can be done. What I'm advocating is that its best to work with companies that have the time, interest and resources to work through the wrinkles, and if not, then carefully put in reliable and precise BMS circuitry which includes things like fail safe circuits for single point failures of critical sensing circuits, the foremost of which is cell temperature. When you're pushing large currents, all it takes is one poor connection or broken temp sensor on one cell...... Here's a link to the Lion battery pack manufacturer, Corvus, http://corvus-energy.com/ I know they do a good job, but they're not cheap,.... for now... JARMO Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Larry To: RE-wrenches , Date: 03/17/2015 02:37 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank Sent by: "RE-wrenches" Hi Jarmo, One of the reasons I chose to sell and install GBS batteries is the chemistry is safer, they have vent caps (like AGM) and they offer an integrated solution where the battery, EMS/BMS and CPU are all designed specifically for each other instead of adding various parts from different manufacturers. The chemistry is LFMP (lithium iron manganese) not LFP. There are seven monitored fault events, including temperature, current and voltage, that will disconnect the battery from any load or any charge source. Since we are installing in RV's, there are multiple charge sources and all must be controlled. The systems I design do this very well. Also, our charge and discharge rates are far lower than the industry normally expects; rarely reaching .5C. I have seen private videos of destructive testing of GBS cells. Steel rods fired through entire packs; slow crush tests from top and sides, impact tests, even cells blown away on a gun range (that was more for fun I think as not too likely you will experience that). No fire, no thermal events. Bottom line for me is these are likely the safest Lithium battery I can offer. Many customers have already had shut down events because they were not being responsible. A simple reset and they're back in business. What was the lithium chemistry that you had trouble with? Thank you, Larry Crutcher On 3/17/15 12:49 PM, Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com wrote: Hi: Please be careful when working with solar system size Lithium packs on the cell level. We have been doing on-going testing with Lion battery packs from various suppliers and even with their built in temp sensors and other BMS circuits, have already had two "thermal events". Lion is very unforgiving with regards low state of charge, high state of charge, temperature (110F is the max temp at which they should be charged and 140F is the max they can handle). Given the low thermal mass of Lion cells, a high rate of discharge or charge quickly gets the cell temperature into the 110F+ range. As soon as you cross the line things start happening and if the BMS doesn't put a stop to it by turning the battery pack off, it's a very quick slide down the hill from there. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Larry To: RE-wrenches , Date: 03/17/2015 11:41 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank Sent by: "RE-wrenches" _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solar1online at charter.net Wed Mar 18 09:57:22 2015 From: solar1online at charter.net (Bill Loesch) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 08:57:22 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Recommendation for torque tools Message-ID: <55098442.1080108@charter.net> Wrenches, Do you have a favorite brand/model of torque wrenches when assembling mounts to manufacturer's specs? How do you handle calibration? TIA, -- Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5751 / Virus Database: 4311/9328 - Release Date: 03/18/15 From larry at starlightsolar.com Wed Mar 18 11:57:56 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Larry) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 08:57:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank In-Reply-To: References: <55087548.2040101@starlightsolar.com> <55089E6D.4040508@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <5509A084.7040306@starlightsolar.com> Hi Jarmo, I agree and recognize your urgency in making us aware of the proper use and charging of Li-ion batteries as well as the dangers of mistreating them. As an early adopter myself, I am very cautious in my approach even to the point of refusing to sell to some customers. Lithium battery technology is in a state of rapid evolution. Not wanting to harp on the GBS brand that I sell, but one of your points goes to prove the safety of their integrated approach. You said, "...all it takes is one poor connection or broken temp sensor on one cell." The GBS EMS system has cell level sensors for temperature (and other data) and each sensor board requires constant communication with the CPU. If the EMS fails to communicate any information with any cell, the CPU immediately shuts down both safety solenoids, disconnecting the battery. With the non integrated systems, failures that don't report information to the management system could lead to disaster. Please keep offering us the knowledge you are gaining as I am a firm believer that Lithium technology is a large part of the inevitable replacement the aged lead battery. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On 3/17/15 6:11 PM, Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com wrote: > Hi: > > I may sound like I'm a detractor against using Lion, but that's not it. > > What I want to bring to light is that, being as the technology is new, > not all the issues are known and there are things to learn for all > early adopters in the foreseeable future. > > From what I can gather the framework for the issues lies in that Lion > technology is based on intercalation, that is, a reversible insertion > and removal of Li molecules into compounds with microscopically > layered structures. This predicates that there must be no chemical > reaction in the battery, but rather only the shelving of the highly > reactive Li ions. If there are any chemical reactions taking place, > then in the least the battery performance is compromised and in the > most there is a thermal event or worse > > There are some very robust Lion battery packs, a favorite of mine > being from a local company from Vancouver, (well Richmond, which is a > suburb of Vancouver). It's a small company, but they have designed, > developed, built and successfully approved their 6 kWh Lion pack for > use in large car ferries in Scandinavia. The ferries have stacks of > these packs in the 100's, in the MWh size. It can be done. > > What I'm advocating is that its best to work with companies that have > the time, interest and resources to work through the wrinkles, and if > not, then carefully put in reliable and precise BMS circuitry which > includes things like fail safe circuits for single point failures of > critical sensing circuits, the foremost of which is cell temperature. > When you're pushing large currents, all it takes is one poor > connection or broken temp sensor on one cell...... > > Here's a link to the Lion battery pack manufacturer, Corvus, > > http://corvus-energy.com/ > > I know they do a good job, but they're not cheap,.... for now... > > JARMO > > * > Jarmo Venalainen* | *Schneider Electric **| Xantrex Brand* | > *CANADA* | *Sales Application Engineer* * > Phone:* +604-422-2528 | *Tech Support:* 800-670-0707 | *Mobile:* > +604-505-0291 * > Email:* _jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com_ > | > *Site:*_www.Xantrex.com_ | *Address:* 3700 > Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Wed Mar 18 13:34:42 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 11:34:42 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5509B732.7060608@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at seesolar.com Wed Mar 18 14:13:41 2015 From: max at seesolar.com (Max Balchowsky) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 18:13:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank In-Reply-To: <5509A084.7040306@starlightsolar.com> References: <5509A084.7040306@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <661601290.1348482.1426702422707.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> We're leaning toward the LiFePO4 batteries (low internal resistance) GBS have  a medium high resistance so they warm faster and have a lower C rate efficiency, were gathering info as we go...... Max Balchowsky Design Engineer Golden Bridge Development 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 760-403-6810"Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" From: Larry To: RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2015 8:57 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank Hi Jarmo, I agree and recognize your urgency in making us aware of the proper use and charging of Li-ion batteries as well as the dangers of mistreating them. As an early adopter myself, I am very cautious in my approach even to the point of refusing to sell to some customers. Lithium battery technology is in a state of rapid evolution. Not wanting to harp on the GBS brand that I sell, but one of your points goes to prove the safety of their integrated approach. You said, "...all it takes is one poor connection or broken temp sensor on one cell." The GBS EMS system has cell level sensors for temperature (and other data) and each sensor board requires constant communication with the CPU. If the EMS fails to communicate any information with any cell, the CPU immediately shuts down both safety solenoids, disconnecting the battery. With the non integrated systems, failures that don't report information to the management system could lead to disaster. Please keep offering us the knowledge you are gaining as I am a firm believer that Lithium technology is a large part of the inevitable replacement the aged lead battery. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems   On 3/17/15 6:11 PM, Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com wrote: Hi: I may sound like I'm a detractor against using Lion, but that's not it. What I want to bring to light is that, being as the technology is new, not all the issues are known and there are things to learn for all early adopters in the foreseeable future. From what I can gather the framework for the issues lies in that Lion technology is based on intercalation, that is, a reversible insertion and removal of Li molecules into compounds with microscopically layered structures.  This predicates that there must be no chemical reaction in the battery, but rather only the shelving of the highly reactive Li ions.  If there are any chemical reactions taking place, then in the least the battery performance is compromised and in the most there is a thermal event or worse There are some very robust Lion battery packs, a favorite of mine being from a local company from Vancouver, (well Richmond, which is a suburb of Vancouver).  It's a small company, but they have designed, developed, built and successfully approved their 6 kWh Lion pack for use in large car ferries in Scandinavia.  The ferries have stacks of these packs in the 100's, in the MWh size.  It can be done. What I'm advocating is that its best to work with companies that have the time, interest and resources to work through the wrinkles, and if not, then carefully put in reliable and precise BMS circuitry which includes things like fail safe circuits for single point failures of critical sensing circuits, the foremost of which is cell temperature.  When you're pushing large currents, all it takes is one poor connection or broken temp sensor on one cell...... Here's a link to the Lion battery pack manufacturer, Corvus, http://corvus-energy.com/ I know they do a good job, but they're not cheap,.... for now... JARMO Jarmo Venalainen  |   Schneider Electric   |  Xantrex Brand  |   CANADA  |   Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528  |   Tech Support: 800-670-0707  |   Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com  |   Site: www.Xantrex.com  |   Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 | | | | | | | | | _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solarphil at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 16:04:20 2015 From: solarphil at gmail.com (Phil Undercuffler) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 13:04:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping In-Reply-To: <5509B732.7060608@sindelarsolar.com> References: <5509B732.7060608@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: The PSX-240 (independent unit in enclosure) has active cooling, so it has a higher capacity and therefore the 25A breaker. The X-240 (bare xformer) should have a 20A. The good news is, in OutBack Stacking the xformer is balancing the phases, which since there are inverters on both phases means that it typically is only processing 1-2kW or so, usually much less. Phil On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 10:34 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > Kevin and Matt, > Good advice from Matt. Just one detail: On the Outback PSX-240 (the > independent unit with enclosure) the output breakers are 25A, not 20A. I > suspect that the 2P > breaker for the X-240 would be the same. As the unit often operates at > close to its capacity, this could make a difference. > Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* > > > On 3/17/2015 2:56 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: > > Thanks, Matt for the details here. > > I will be heading out to the site in the next little while and will report > back what was found. > > Kevin > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ]*On Behalf Of *Matt James > *Sent:* March 17, 2015 12:22 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping > > Kevin, > > > > Not sure what happened on the dropped communication, but I had responded > to you last week with some possible answers and things to check. I think I > made the mistake of replying directly to your email address and not sending > to the entire Re-Wrenches forum, sorry for that as I know this is > information that could be helpful to others as well. > > > > In any case, Tump is right -- on an existing system where everything has > been working fine for some time but now isn’t, the key is to isolate, > isolate, isolate. Turn off all AC input, output and transformer breakers, > then wake up each inverter by increasing the Power Save Level Master Adjust > one step at a time. Confirm proper AC voltage line to neutral at the > inverter’s AC output terminals – all breakers are still open. > > > > Close the breaker to the X240 balancing transformer, then close the AC > output breakers of one inverter at a time, starting with the Master. > Confirm that all inverters are on and have proper voltage and phasing by > verifying proper AC voltage line to neutral, line to line as measured at > the AC output terminals and to the output bus bars – all inverters should > show 120 L-N, and any inverters programmed as L1 Slaves should show 0v L-L > to the Master and 240v L-L to L2 Slaves. L2 slaves > > > > This establishes a baseline to ensure that all the power electronics, > magnetics, wiring and programming are working properly. > > > > Next, start the generator and close all the input breakers. Measure AC > voltage at the inverter’s input terminals, confirm that each is seeing the > proper voltage and phasing. Verify that the inverters sync to and connect > to the generator, and begin to charge. Measure the AC current on both > phases of the generator, and verify that they are balanced. > > > > Some potential issues are: > > 1. Bad X240 breaker. Take a spare, 20A 2 pole DIN. > > 2. Transformer insulation damaged, typically by overheating. > Rather unlikely, but possible. > > 3. Failed or mis-wired or mis-programmed inverter, likely on L2. > Due to the distance to the site, consider taking a replacement board set > with you. Alternately, the system can operate on both legs with the other > inverters, even if it’s an uneven number, through OutBack Stacking until > you can schedule another trip. > > 4. Heavily imbalanced load or generator. > > > > If the charging currents on the generator are imbalanced, one possible > solution is to disconnect the neutral from the generator at the power > system end. This presents a pure 240v load to the genset, which will force > the currents to be balanced on both phases. > > > > Feel free to contact me directly if you have any problems or questions. > > > > Best Regards, > > > > Matt James > > Applications Engineering Manager > > OutBack Power Technologies Inc. > > Direct: (360) 618-4364 > > Cell: (360) 618-2869 > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of *Kevin Pegg > *Sent:* Monday, March 16, 2015 10:51 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping > > > > Thanks for everyone's advise on this one. I've done as much as I can > working with the caretaker remotely and will need to attend myself with > some test gear to fully diagnose. This site is remote (10h of driving then > 1h boat ride). I generally make a point of avoiding Outback product so feel > much better informed to diagnose when onsite - later in the week. Thanks. > > > > Curious what is going on with Outback's tech support. I waited on hold for > a bit on Wednesday, then left a message for callback and am still waiting > for that callback 3 business days later. > > > > My client is most upset that Outback can't even bother to return a tech > call. His instructions to me are if we find multiple failed components in > the system and not simple fixes to remove the gear and replace with > "anything as long as it's not Outback". > > > > Will advise the list what was discovered once onsite. > > > > Kevin > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ]*On Behalf Of *frenergy > *Sent:* March 16, 2015 6:38 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping > > Kevin, > > > > Not to add any confusion but I recently had to re-program the > slave in a 2 VFX with Xfrmr system as it was doing the same thing...the 2 > pole xfrmr breaker was tripping when a moderate load was on. Granted this > was not happening during charging though. I think I changed the slave from > OB slave L1 to OB slave L2 and all was good. It doesn't seem likely the > programming in your case would have been messed with having been working > well for years prior. Curious to hear though of a solution eventually. > > > > Bill > > > > Feather River Solar Electric > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 / 6544 fax > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* Tump > > *To:* RE-wrenches > > *Sent:* Monday, March 16, 2015 5:39 AM > > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping > > > > Have you turned the breaker on the t240 to the off position? One does NOT > have to have that operational for the system to operate correctly.The old > t240 has about the same parasitic draw as an inverter. Isolate, Isolate, > Isolate. If the system functions correctly w/ the t240 off and the stacking > is correct on this q stack disconnect it(the t240). Otherwise I would > remove the inverter com cables and only connect 1 pair of inverters at a > time, reset the mate with the correct com cables connected to P1& P2. > Sometimes something so simple as disconnecting & reconnection the mate can > have quite a benefit. Again I would, if you are really stuck on having the > t240 operational, then try it with each inverter as a single unit then try > the second set of inverters. Disconnect the #s1&2 inverters and do the > same; connect #s 3&4 P1 & P2, to see exactly which component may be your > problem. > > You are more then happy to contact me off list if you choose. contact info > below. Tump > > On Mar 15, 2015, at 5:04 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > > > Wrenches > OK if the X240 blows the fuse which is on the output of the inverter while > the inverter is charging, excessive current must be passing through from > one inverter and back to the output of another inverter ( a form of AC > coupling gone bad). The time delay fits as the inverter ramps up, I would > look at the contactors in each slave as one may be hanging or ther may be a > bad board, easy way to test is to isolate each inverter and with a amp > meter connected at the X240 see if current goes away in the X240 as it > should not be doing much with light loads on the "House" side of the > inverters. The X240 is 25 amps while the inverters are 50 amps. Sounds like > a interesting one to diagnose. > > Jerry > > > > On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 11:59 AM, Chris Worcester < > chris at solarwindworks.com> wrote: > > Hi Kevin, > > I have seen the X240's trip off like this when theyare over loaded. When > this was happening to us the slave inverters had blown AC boards and some > times Control and FET boards too. We had a hard time diagnosing this as > their green lights were on. Using a clamp on amp meter on each > inverter's AC IN conductor while charging with the gen set allowed us to > compare their charging currents to each other. Typically the ones with > blown AC boards output would be close to zero amps. So the X240's were > doing double duty and they will smoke too if the inverters aren't delta > with. > > > > > > Sincerely, > > Chris Worcester > > 530-448-9692 > > Sent from my Galaxy S®III > > > > -------- Original message -------- > > From: Kevin Pegg > > Date:03/11/2015 1:19 PM (GMT-08:00) > > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping > > > > Hello Wrenches, > > Customer in remote location has a strange situation come up on an existing > system installed (by others) 6 or so years go. Quad stack VFX3648. > > Last night gen start was triggered by low voltage - a normal system > operation. > > Approx 1h into charge, they lost 1/2 the circuits in house - L2 > de-energized. Caretaker went to check power system and noticed the X240 > breakers tripped. Tried to reset but it tripped out right away. So he left > it as is and called me in the morning. > > Here's what I've been able to determine today: > > - The x240 is installed to bridge L1 & L2 on the load side. > - with master inverter on, 3 slaves off, both L1 and L2 energized so > suggests x240 is working. > - within 10 seconds of generator on and charging, x240 breaker trips (and > makes L2 go dark). > - loads are minor, ~1,000 w of misc lights and such, isn't all loaded up > on one leg. > > Appreciate any thoughts to remedy. I'm not as familiar with this config as > others. > > Kevin Pegg > EA Energy Alternatives Ltd. > 37471 Hwy 16 E > Telkwa, BC V0J 2X2 > 250-846-9888 > Http://www.EnergyAlternatives.ca > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > *Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net* > > Solarwinds Northernlights > > * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* > * 207-832-7574 <207-832-7574> Cl. 610-517-8401 > <610-517-8401> * > > *Blair "TUMP" May* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 16:18:20 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 10:18:20 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping In-Reply-To: References: <5509B732.7060608@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Phil Please confirm i have built lots of ps2 and 4 seams to always have 25's on the x240 not 20's Jerry On Mar 18, 2015 10:04 AM, "Phil Undercuffler" wrote: > The PSX-240 (independent unit in enclosure) has active cooling, so it has > a higher capacity and therefore the 25A breaker. The X-240 (bare xformer) > should have a 20A. The good news is, in OutBack Stacking the xformer is > balancing the phases, which since there are inverters on both phases means > that it typically is only processing 1-2kW or so, usually much less. > > Phil > > On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 10:34 AM, Allan Sindelar > wrote: > >> Kevin and Matt, >> Good advice from Matt. Just one detail: On the Outback PSX-240 (the >> independent unit with enclosure) the output breakers are 25A, not 20A. I >> suspect that the 2P >> breaker for the X-240 would be the same. As the unit often operates at >> close to its capacity, this could make a difference. >> Allan >> >> *Allan Sindelar* >> allan at sindelarsolar.com >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional >> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >> *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* >> >> >> On 3/17/2015 2:56 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: >> >> Thanks, Matt for the details here. >> >> I will be heading out to the site in the next little while and will >> report back what was found. >> >> Kevin >> >> -----Original Message----- >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >> ]*On Behalf Of *Matt James >> *Sent:* March 17, 2015 12:22 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping >> >> Kevin, >> >> >> >> Not sure what happened on the dropped communication, but I had responded >> to you last week with some possible answers and things to check. I think I >> made the mistake of replying directly to your email address and not sending >> to the entire Re-Wrenches forum, sorry for that as I know this is >> information that could be helpful to others as well. >> >> >> >> In any case, Tump is right -- on an existing system where everything has >> been working fine for some time but now isn’t, the key is to isolate, >> isolate, isolate. Turn off all AC input, output and transformer breakers, >> then wake up each inverter by increasing the Power Save Level Master Adjust >> one step at a time. Confirm proper AC voltage line to neutral at the >> inverter’s AC output terminals – all breakers are still open. >> >> >> >> Close the breaker to the X240 balancing transformer, then close the AC >> output breakers of one inverter at a time, starting with the Master. >> Confirm that all inverters are on and have proper voltage and phasing by >> verifying proper AC voltage line to neutral, line to line as measured at >> the AC output terminals and to the output bus bars – all inverters should >> show 120 L-N, and any inverters programmed as L1 Slaves should show 0v L-L >> to the Master and 240v L-L to L2 Slaves. L2 slaves >> >> >> >> This establishes a baseline to ensure that all the power electronics, >> magnetics, wiring and programming are working properly. >> >> >> >> Next, start the generator and close all the input breakers. Measure AC >> voltage at the inverter’s input terminals, confirm that each is seeing the >> proper voltage and phasing. Verify that the inverters sync to and connect >> to the generator, and begin to charge. Measure the AC current on both >> phases of the generator, and verify that they are balanced. >> >> >> >> Some potential issues are: >> >> 1. Bad X240 breaker. Take a spare, 20A 2 pole DIN. >> >> 2. Transformer insulation damaged, typically by overheating. >> Rather unlikely, but possible. >> >> 3. Failed or mis-wired or mis-programmed inverter, likely on L2. >> Due to the distance to the site, consider taking a replacement board set >> with you. Alternately, the system can operate on both legs with the other >> inverters, even if it’s an uneven number, through OutBack Stacking until >> you can schedule another trip. >> >> 4. Heavily imbalanced load or generator. >> >> >> >> If the charging currents on the generator are imbalanced, one possible >> solution is to disconnect the neutral from the generator at the power >> system end. This presents a pure 240v load to the genset, which will force >> the currents to be balanced on both phases. >> >> >> >> Feel free to contact me directly if you have any problems or questions. >> >> >> >> Best Regards, >> >> >> >> Matt James >> >> Applications Engineering Manager >> >> OutBack Power Technologies Inc. >> >> Direct: (360) 618-4364 >> >> Cell: (360) 618-2869 >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >> ] *On Behalf Of *Kevin Pegg >> *Sent:* Monday, March 16, 2015 10:51 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping >> >> >> >> Thanks for everyone's advise on this one. I've done as much as I can >> working with the caretaker remotely and will need to attend myself with >> some test gear to fully diagnose. This site is remote (10h of driving then >> 1h boat ride). I generally make a point of avoiding Outback product so feel >> much better informed to diagnose when onsite - later in the week. Thanks. >> >> >> >> Curious what is going on with Outback's tech support. I waited on hold >> for a bit on Wednesday, then left a message for callback and am still >> waiting for that callback 3 business days later. >> >> >> >> My client is most upset that Outback can't even bother to return a tech >> call. His instructions to me are if we find multiple failed components in >> the system and not simple fixes to remove the gear and replace with >> "anything as long as it's not Outback". >> >> >> >> Will advise the list what was discovered once onsite. >> >> >> >> Kevin >> >> -----Original Message----- >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >> ]*On Behalf Of *frenergy >> *Sent:* March 16, 2015 6:38 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping >> >> Kevin, >> >> >> >> Not to add any confusion but I recently had to re-program the >> slave in a 2 VFX with Xfrmr system as it was doing the same thing...the 2 >> pole xfrmr breaker was tripping when a moderate load was on. Granted this >> was not happening during charging though. I think I changed the slave from >> OB slave L1 to OB slave L2 and all was good. It doesn't seem likely the >> programming in your case would have been messed with having been working >> well for years prior. Curious to hear though of a solution eventually. >> >> >> >> Bill >> >> >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> 4291 Nelson St. >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.7849 / 6544 fax >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> *From:* Tump >> >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> >> *Sent:* Monday, March 16, 2015 5:39 AM >> >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping >> >> >> >> Have you turned the breaker on the t240 to the off position? One does NOT >> have to have that operational for the system to operate correctly.The old >> t240 has about the same parasitic draw as an inverter. Isolate, Isolate, >> Isolate. If the system functions correctly w/ the t240 off and the stacking >> is correct on this q stack disconnect it(the t240). Otherwise I would >> remove the inverter com cables and only connect 1 pair of inverters at a >> time, reset the mate with the correct com cables connected to P1& P2. >> Sometimes something so simple as disconnecting & reconnection the mate can >> have quite a benefit. Again I would, if you are really stuck on having the >> t240 operational, then try it with each inverter as a single unit then try >> the second set of inverters. Disconnect the #s1&2 inverters and do the >> same; connect #s 3&4 P1 & P2, to see exactly which component may be your >> problem. >> >> You are more then happy to contact me off list if you choose. contact >> info below. Tump >> >> On Mar 15, 2015, at 5:04 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >> >> >> >> Wrenches >> OK if the X240 blows the fuse which is on the output of the inverter >> while the inverter is charging, excessive current must be passing through >> from one inverter and back to the output of another inverter ( a form of AC >> coupling gone bad). The time delay fits as the inverter ramps up, I would >> look at the contactors in each slave as one may be hanging or ther may be a >> bad board, easy way to test is to isolate each inverter and with a amp >> meter connected at the X240 see if current goes away in the X240 as it >> should not be doing much with light loads on the "House" side of the >> inverters. The X240 is 25 amps while the inverters are 50 amps. Sounds like >> a interesting one to diagnose. >> >> Jerry >> >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 11:59 AM, Chris Worcester < >> chris at solarwindworks.com> wrote: >> >> Hi Kevin, >> >> I have seen the X240's trip off like this when theyare over loaded. >> When this was happening to us the slave inverters had blown AC boards and >> some times Control and FET boards too. We had a hard time diagnosing this >> as their green lights were on. Using a clamp on amp meter on each >> inverter's AC IN conductor while charging with the gen set allowed us to >> compare their charging currents to each other. Typically the ones with >> blown AC boards output would be close to zero amps. So the X240's were >> doing double duty and they will smoke too if the inverters aren't delta >> with. >> >> >> >> >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Chris Worcester >> >> 530-448-9692 >> >> Sent from my Galaxy S®III >> >> >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> >> From: Kevin Pegg >> >> Date:03/11/2015 1:19 PM (GMT-08:00) >> >> To: RE-wrenches >> >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping >> >> >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> Customer in remote location has a strange situation come up on an >> existing system installed (by others) 6 or so years go. Quad stack VFX3648. >> >> Last night gen start was triggered by low voltage - a normal system >> operation. >> >> Approx 1h into charge, they lost 1/2 the circuits in house - L2 >> de-energized. Caretaker went to check power system and noticed the X240 >> breakers tripped. Tried to reset but it tripped out right away. So he left >> it as is and called me in the morning. >> >> Here's what I've been able to determine today: >> >> - The x240 is installed to bridge L1 & L2 on the load side. >> - with master inverter on, 3 slaves off, both L1 and L2 energized so >> suggests x240 is working. >> - within 10 seconds of generator on and charging, x240 breaker trips (and >> makes L2 go dark). >> - loads are minor, ~1,000 w of misc lights and such, isn't all loaded up >> on one leg. >> >> Appreciate any thoughts to remedy. I'm not as familiar with this config >> as others. >> >> Kevin Pegg >> EA Energy Alternatives Ltd. >> 37471 Hwy 16 E >> Telkwa, BC V0J 2X2 >> 250-846-9888 >> Http://www.EnergyAlternatives.ca >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> *Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net* >> >> Solarwinds Northernlights >> >> * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* >> * 207-832-7574 <207-832-7574> Cl. 610-517-8401 >> <610-517-8401> * >> >> *Blair "TUMP" May* >> >> >> * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** >> NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* >> >> >> * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** >> Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 17:30:17 2015 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 15:30:17 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank Message-ID: Larry, I've been checking out the [current] viability of Li+ technologies for RE systems, and I'm encouraged to hear of the success you've apparently had. What is the typical kWh size of the battery packs you've been putting together? Are you sourcing the GBS batteries directly from the manufacturer? I appreciate both your and Jarmo's comments about the safety concerns with this rapidly evolving technology. Feeling good about the long term safety of a large RE-scale Li-ion battery pack for my customers has been a major stumbling block for me thus far. Thanks, -Luke Luke Christy NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 CoSEIA Certified PV Installer Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO. 81144 SGSRenewables at Gmail.com 719.588.3044 www.sgsrenewables.com From larry at starlightsolar.com Wed Mar 18 17:41:48 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Larry) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 14:41:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank In-Reply-To: References: <55087548.2040101@starlightsolar.com> <55087975.8080101@solarray.com> <55088333.6020707@starlightsolar.com> <55088964.6010508@solarray.com> <55088A88.7040501@aprsworld.com> <55088FFE.2070801@solarray.com> Message-ID: <5509F11C.9060508@starlightsolar.com> Hi Chris, Thanks for the recommendation. I received a quote from Comrent....$1800 to rent a load for 1 week. Ouch! I'll go with the $10 water elements and a little fabrication time. I have AH counters and controllers to stop the discharge. Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On 3/17/15 2:38 PM, Chris Mason wrote: > Load banks are for rent, I am in the generator business and it is a > common requirement to provide a load bank upon installation. > http://www.comrent.com/Solutions/load-bank-rentals.html > From solarphil at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 19:46:18 2015 From: solarphil at gmail.com (Phil Undercuffler) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 16:46:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping In-Reply-To: References: <5509B732.7060608@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: There was a certification update the last year or so where UL standards on transformers changed. If you have an X240 that came with a 25, then it was from the old math. The X240s that ship under the new math have 20A breakers. Like you, I've installed tons of X240s with 25A breakers, but either one works. Phil On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 1:18 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Phil > Please confirm i have built lots of ps2 and 4 seams to always have 25's on > the x240 not 20's > Jerry > On Mar 18, 2015 10:04 AM, "Phil Undercuffler" wrote: > >> The PSX-240 (independent unit in enclosure) has active cooling, so it has >> a higher capacity and therefore the 25A breaker. The X-240 (bare xformer) >> should have a 20A. The good news is, in OutBack Stacking the xformer is >> balancing the phases, which since there are inverters on both phases means >> that it typically is only processing 1-2kW or so, usually much less. >> >> Phil >> >> On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 10:34 AM, Allan Sindelar > > wrote: >> >>> Kevin and Matt, >>> Good advice from Matt. Just one detail: On the Outback PSX-240 (the >>> independent unit with enclosure) the output breakers are 25A, not 20A. I >>> suspect that the 2P >>> breaker for the X-240 would be the same. As the unit often operates at >>> close to its capacity, this could make a difference. >>> Allan >>> >>> *Allan Sindelar* >>> allan at sindelarsolar.com >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional >>> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >>> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >>> *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* >>> >>> >>> On 3/17/2015 2:56 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: >>> >>> Thanks, Matt for the details here. >>> >>> I will be heading out to the site in the next little while and will >>> report back what was found. >>> >>> Kevin >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> ]*On Behalf Of *Matt James >>> *Sent:* March 17, 2015 12:22 PM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping >>> >>> Kevin, >>> >>> >>> >>> Not sure what happened on the dropped communication, but I had responded >>> to you last week with some possible answers and things to check. I think I >>> made the mistake of replying directly to your email address and not sending >>> to the entire Re-Wrenches forum, sorry for that as I know this is >>> information that could be helpful to others as well. >>> >>> >>> >>> In any case, Tump is right -- on an existing system where everything has >>> been working fine for some time but now isn’t, the key is to isolate, >>> isolate, isolate. Turn off all AC input, output and transformer breakers, >>> then wake up each inverter by increasing the Power Save Level Master Adjust >>> one step at a time. Confirm proper AC voltage line to neutral at the >>> inverter’s AC output terminals – all breakers are still open. >>> >>> >>> >>> Close the breaker to the X240 balancing transformer, then close the AC >>> output breakers of one inverter at a time, starting with the Master. >>> Confirm that all inverters are on and have proper voltage and phasing by >>> verifying proper AC voltage line to neutral, line to line as measured at >>> the AC output terminals and to the output bus bars – all inverters should >>> show 120 L-N, and any inverters programmed as L1 Slaves should show 0v L-L >>> to the Master and 240v L-L to L2 Slaves. L2 slaves >>> >>> >>> >>> This establishes a baseline to ensure that all the power electronics, >>> magnetics, wiring and programming are working properly. >>> >>> >>> >>> Next, start the generator and close all the input breakers. Measure AC >>> voltage at the inverter’s input terminals, confirm that each is seeing the >>> proper voltage and phasing. Verify that the inverters sync to and connect >>> to the generator, and begin to charge. Measure the AC current on both >>> phases of the generator, and verify that they are balanced. >>> >>> >>> >>> Some potential issues are: >>> >>> 1. Bad X240 breaker. Take a spare, 20A 2 pole DIN. >>> >>> 2. Transformer insulation damaged, typically by overheating. >>> Rather unlikely, but possible. >>> >>> 3. Failed or mis-wired or mis-programmed inverter, likely on L2. >>> Due to the distance to the site, consider taking a replacement board set >>> with you. Alternately, the system can operate on both legs with the other >>> inverters, even if it’s an uneven number, through OutBack Stacking until >>> you can schedule another trip. >>> >>> 4. Heavily imbalanced load or generator. >>> >>> >>> >>> If the charging currents on the generator are imbalanced, one possible >>> solution is to disconnect the neutral from the generator at the power >>> system end. This presents a pure 240v load to the genset, which will force >>> the currents to be balanced on both phases. >>> >>> >>> >>> Feel free to contact me directly if you have any problems or questions. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> >>> >>> >>> Matt James >>> >>> Applications Engineering Manager >>> >>> OutBack Power Technologies Inc. >>> >>> Direct: (360) 618-4364 >>> >>> Cell: (360) 618-2869 >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> ] *On Behalf Of *Kevin Pegg >>> *Sent:* Monday, March 16, 2015 10:51 AM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for everyone's advise on this one. I've done as much as I can >>> working with the caretaker remotely and will need to attend myself with >>> some test gear to fully diagnose. This site is remote (10h of driving then >>> 1h boat ride). I generally make a point of avoiding Outback product so feel >>> much better informed to diagnose when onsite - later in the week. Thanks. >>> >>> >>> >>> Curious what is going on with Outback's tech support. I waited on hold >>> for a bit on Wednesday, then left a message for callback and am still >>> waiting for that callback 3 business days later. >>> >>> >>> >>> My client is most upset that Outback can't even bother to return a tech >>> call. His instructions to me are if we find multiple failed components in >>> the system and not simple fixes to remove the gear and replace with >>> "anything as long as it's not Outback". >>> >>> >>> >>> Will advise the list what was discovered once onsite. >>> >>> >>> >>> Kevin >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> ]*On Behalf Of *frenergy >>> *Sent:* March 16, 2015 6:38 AM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping >>> >>> Kevin, >>> >>> >>> >>> Not to add any confusion but I recently had to re-program the >>> slave in a 2 VFX with Xfrmr system as it was doing the same thing...the 2 >>> pole xfrmr breaker was tripping when a moderate load was on. Granted this >>> was not happening during charging though. I think I changed the slave from >>> OB slave L1 to OB slave L2 and all was good. It doesn't seem likely the >>> programming in your case would have been messed with having been working >>> well for years prior. Curious to hear though of a solution eventually. >>> >>> >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> >>> >>> Feather River Solar Electric >>> 4291 Nelson St. >>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>> 530.284.7849 / 6544 fax >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >>> *From:* Tump >>> >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> >>> *Sent:* Monday, March 16, 2015 5:39 AM >>> >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping >>> >>> >>> >>> Have you turned the breaker on the t240 to the off position? One does >>> NOT have to have that operational for the system to operate correctly.The >>> old t240 has about the same parasitic draw as an inverter. Isolate, >>> Isolate, Isolate. If the system functions correctly w/ the t240 off and the >>> stacking is correct on this q stack disconnect it(the t240). Otherwise I >>> would remove the inverter com cables and only connect 1 pair of inverters >>> at a time, reset the mate with the correct com cables connected to P1& P2. >>> Sometimes something so simple as disconnecting & reconnection the mate can >>> have quite a benefit. Again I would, if you are really stuck on having the >>> t240 operational, then try it with each inverter as a single unit then try >>> the second set of inverters. Disconnect the #s1&2 inverters and do the >>> same; connect #s 3&4 P1 & P2, to see exactly which component may be your >>> problem. >>> >>> You are more then happy to contact me off list if you choose. contact >>> info below. Tump >>> >>> On Mar 15, 2015, at 5:04 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Wrenches >>> OK if the X240 blows the fuse which is on the output of the inverter >>> while the inverter is charging, excessive current must be passing through >>> from one inverter and back to the output of another inverter ( a form of AC >>> coupling gone bad). The time delay fits as the inverter ramps up, I would >>> look at the contactors in each slave as one may be hanging or ther may be a >>> bad board, easy way to test is to isolate each inverter and with a amp >>> meter connected at the X240 see if current goes away in the X240 as it >>> should not be doing much with light loads on the "House" side of the >>> inverters. The X240 is 25 amps while the inverters are 50 amps. Sounds like >>> a interesting one to diagnose. >>> >>> Jerry >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 11:59 AM, Chris Worcester < >>> chris at solarwindworks.com> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Kevin, >>> >>> I have seen the X240's trip off like this when theyare over loaded. >>> When this was happening to us the slave inverters had blown AC boards and >>> some times Control and FET boards too. We had a hard time diagnosing this >>> as their green lights were on. Using a clamp on amp meter on each >>> inverter's AC IN conductor while charging with the gen set allowed us to >>> compare their charging currents to each other. Typically the ones with >>> blown AC boards output would be close to zero amps. So the X240's were >>> doing double duty and they will smoke too if the inverters aren't delta >>> with. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Chris Worcester >>> >>> 530-448-9692 >>> >>> Sent from my Galaxy S®III >>> >>> >>> >>> -------- Original message -------- >>> >>> From: Kevin Pegg >>> >>> Date:03/11/2015 1:19 PM (GMT-08:00) >>> >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> >>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping >>> >>> >>> >>> Hello Wrenches, >>> >>> Customer in remote location has a strange situation come up on an >>> existing system installed (by others) 6 or so years go. Quad stack VFX3648. >>> >>> Last night gen start was triggered by low voltage - a normal system >>> operation. >>> >>> Approx 1h into charge, they lost 1/2 the circuits in house - L2 >>> de-energized. Caretaker went to check power system and noticed the X240 >>> breakers tripped. Tried to reset but it tripped out right away. So he left >>> it as is and called me in the morning. >>> >>> Here's what I've been able to determine today: >>> >>> - The x240 is installed to bridge L1 & L2 on the load side. >>> - with master inverter on, 3 slaves off, both L1 and L2 energized so >>> suggests x240 is working. >>> - within 10 seconds of generator on and charging, x240 breaker trips >>> (and makes L2 go dark). >>> - loads are minor, ~1,000 w of misc lights and such, isn't all loaded up >>> on one leg. >>> >>> Appreciate any thoughts to remedy. I'm not as familiar with this config >>> as others. >>> >>> Kevin Pegg >>> EA Energy Alternatives Ltd. >>> 37471 Hwy 16 E >>> Telkwa, BC V0J 2X2 >>> 250-846-9888 >>> Http://www.EnergyAlternatives.ca >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> *Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net* >>> >>> Solarwinds Northernlights >>> >>> * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* >>> * 207-832-7574 <207-832-7574> Cl. 610-517-8401 >>> <610-517-8401> * >>> >>> *Blair "TUMP" May* >>> >>> >>> * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** >>> NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* >>> >>> >>> * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** >>> Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > 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URL: From bruce at mendocinosolar.com Wed Mar 18 19:52:44 2015 From: bruce at mendocinosolar.com (Bruce Erickson) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 16:52:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank In-Reply-To: <5509A084.7040306@starlightsolar.com> References: <55087548.2040101@starlightsolar.com> <55089E6D.4040508@starlightsolar.com> <5509A084.7040306@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <69ECAF42-45B1-4A24-B54C-7EFDF1AEA0B6@mendocinosolar.com> If a communication failure with a single cell (not even an actual fault) can cause total battery shutdown, does that lead to a lot of nuisance tripping? Bruce Erickson Mendocino Solar Service PO Box 1252 Mendocino, CA 95460 707-937-1701 707-937-1741 fax bruce at mendocinosolar.com Celebrating 20 Years in Solar! 1994-2014 On Mar 18, 2015, at 8:57 AM, Larry wrote: > Hi Jarmo, > > I agree and recognize your urgency in making us aware of the proper use and charging of Li-ion batteries as well as the dangers of mistreating them. As an early adopter myself, I am very cautious in my approach even to the point of refusing to sell to some customers. Lithium battery technology is in a state of rapid evolution. > > Not wanting to harp on the GBS brand that I sell, but one of your points goes to prove the safety of their integrated approach. You said, "...all it takes is one poor connection or broken temp sensor on one cell." The GBS EMS system has cell level sensors for temperature (and other data) and each sensor board requires constant communication with the CPU. If the EMS fails to communicate any information with any cell, the CPU immediately shuts down both safety solenoids, disconnecting the battery. With the non integrated systems, failures that don't report information to the management system could lead to disaster. > > Please keep offering us the knowledge you are gaining as I am a firm believer that Lithium technology is a large part of the inevitable replacement the aged lead battery. > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > On 3/17/15 6:11 PM, Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com wrote: >> Hi: >> >> I may sound like I'm a detractor against using Lion, but that's not it. >> >> What I want to bring to light is that, being as the technology is new, not all the issues are known and there are things to learn for all early adopters in the foreseeable future. >> >> From what I can gather the framework for the issues lies in that Lion technology is based on intercalation, that is, a reversible insertion and removal of Li molecules into compounds with microscopically layered structures. This predicates that there must be no chemical reaction in the battery, but rather only the shelving of the highly reactive Li ions. If there are any chemical reactions taking place, then in the least the battery performance is compromised and in the most there is a thermal event or worse >> >> There are some very robust Lion battery packs, a favorite of mine being from a local company from Vancouver, (well Richmond, which is a suburb of Vancouver). It's a small company, but they have designed, developed, built and successfully approved their 6 kWh Lion pack for use in large car ferries in Scandinavia. The ferries have stacks of these packs in the 100's, in the MWh size. It can be done. >> >> What I'm advocating is that its best to work with companies that have the time, interest and resources to work through the wrinkles, and if not, then carefully put in reliable and precise BMS circuitry which includes things like fail safe circuits for single point failures of critical sensing circuits, the foremost of which is cell temperature. When you're pushing large currents, all it takes is one poor connection or broken temp sensor on one cell...... >> >> Here's a link to the Lion battery pack manufacturer, Corvus, >> >> http://corvus-energy.com/ >> >> I know they do a good job, but they're not cheap,.... for now... >> >> JARMO >> >> >> Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer >> Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 >> Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 >> >> >> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Wed Mar 18 20:17:28 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Larry) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 17:17:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank In-Reply-To: <69ECAF42-45B1-4A24-B54C-7EFDF1AEA0B6@mendocinosolar.com> References: <55087548.2040101@starlightsolar.com> <55089E6D.4040508@starlightsolar.com> <5509A084.7040306@starlightsolar.com> <69ECAF42-45B1-4A24-B54C-7EFDF1AEA0B6@mendocinosolar.com> Message-ID: <550A1598.603@starlightsolar.com> Not at all. The EMS boards are well built and are protected under a cover with the terminals. I have not had any failures of the EMS boards or any failure to communicate with them. Larry On 3/18/15 4:52 PM, Bruce Erickson wrote: > If a communication failure with a single cell (not even an actual > fault) can cause total battery shutdown, does that lead to a lot of > nuisance tripping? > > *Bruce Erickson* > Mendocino Solar Service > PO Box 1252 > Mendocino, CA 95460 > 707-937-1701 > 707-937-1741 fax > bruce at mendocinosolar.com > > /Celebrating 20 Years in Solar!/1994-2014 > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 21:57:27 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 15:57:27 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank In-Reply-To: <69ECAF42-45B1-4A24-B54C-7EFDF1AEA0B6@mendocinosolar.com> References: <55087548.2040101@starlightsolar.com> <55089E6D.4040508@starlightsolar.com> <5509A084.7040306@starlightsolar.com> <69ECAF42-45B1-4A24-B54C-7EFDF1AEA0B6@mendocinosolar.com> Message-ID: We use elite batteries with BMS no problems, the BMS sensor does seem to run warm we are now setting up 4, 100 Ah banks with no problems so far. Jerry On Mar 18, 2015 1:52 PM, "Bruce Erickson" wrote: > If a communication failure with a single cell (not even an actual fault) > can cause total battery shutdown, does that lead to a lot of nuisance > tripping? > > *Bruce Erickson* > Mendocino Solar Service > PO Box 1252 > Mendocino, CA 95460 > 707-937-1701 > 707-937-1741 fax > bruce at mendocinosolar.com > > *Celebrating 20 Years in Solar!* 1994-2014 > > > > > > On Mar 18, 2015, at 8:57 AM, Larry wrote: > > Hi Jarmo, > > I agree and recognize your urgency in making us aware of the proper use > and charging of Li-ion batteries as well as the dangers of mistreating > them. As an early adopter myself, I am very cautious in my approach even to > the point of refusing to sell to some customers. Lithium battery technology > is in a state of rapid evolution. > > Not wanting to harp on the GBS brand that I sell, but one of your points > goes to prove the safety of their integrated approach. You said, "...all > it takes is one poor connection or broken temp sensor on one cell." The > GBS EMS system has cell level sensors for temperature (and other data) and > each sensor board requires constant communication with the CPU. If the EMS > fails to communicate any information with any cell, the CPU immediately > shuts down both safety solenoids, disconnecting the battery. With the non > integrated systems, failures that don't report information to the > management system could lead to disaster. > > Please keep offering us the knowledge you are gaining as I am a firm > believer that Lithium technology is a large part of the inevitable > replacement the aged lead battery. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > On 3/17/15 6:11 PM, Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com wrote: > > Hi: > > I may sound like I'm a detractor against using Lion, but that's not it. > > What I want to bring to light is that, being as the technology is new, not > all the issues are known and there are things to learn for all early > adopters in the foreseeable future. > > From what I can gather the framework for the issues lies in that Lion > technology is based on intercalation, that is, a reversible insertion and > removal of Li molecules into compounds with microscopically layered > structures. This predicates that there must be no chemical reaction in the > battery, but rather only the shelving of the highly reactive Li ions. If > there are any chemical reactions taking place, then in the least the > battery performance is compromised and in the most there is a thermal event > or worse > > There are some very robust Lion battery packs, a favorite of mine being > from a local company from Vancouver, (well Richmond, which is a suburb of > Vancouver). It's a small company, but they have designed, developed, built > and successfully approved their 6 kWh Lion pack for use in large car > ferries in Scandinavia. The ferries have stacks of these packs in the > 100's, in the MWh size. It can be done. > > What I'm advocating is that its best to work with companies that have the > time, interest and resources to work through the wrinkles, and if not, then > carefully put in reliable and precise BMS circuitry which includes things > like fail safe circuits for single point failures of critical sensing > circuits, the foremost of which is cell temperature. When you're pushing > large currents, all it takes is one poor connection or broken temp sensor > on one cell...... > > Here's a link to the Lion battery pack manufacturer, Corvus, > > http://corvus-energy.com/ > > I know they do a good job, but they're not cheap,.... for now... > > JARMO > > > * Jarmo Venalainen* | * Schneider Electric ** | Xantrex Brand* | > *CANADA* | *Sales Application Engineer* > * Phone:* +604-422-2528 | *Tech Support:* 800-670-0707 | *Mobile:* > +604-505-0291 > * Email:* *jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com* > | *Site:** www.Xantrex.com* > | *Address:* 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC > V5G4M1 > Attachment.gif> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay at asis.com Wed Mar 18 21:32:19 2015 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 18:32:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback radian question In-Reply-To: References: <5509B732.7060608@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: HI All, My question is. are there any known issues with the Radian interfacing with a generator? I have a customer with flickering lights. The lights are LED ( some dimmer/some on/off) The generator supplier says that there are lots of problems with the Radian. I've not heard this and don't believe it. symptoms: radian alone: no flicker generator alone: no flicker generator/charging flicker. different generator: no flicker. So there is no doubt its the generator. I'm trying to get more information to go back to the customer. Thanks jay peltz power From solarworks at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 23:17:32 2015 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal Khalsa) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 20:17:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback radian question In-Reply-To: References: <5509B732.7060608@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Are LED's on dimmers and non dimmers flickering or just dimmer switch connected lights....i have had problems with LED's on dimmer switches even with LED specific dimmer switches. .. Just an idea. ... On Mar 18, 2015 7:39 PM, "jay peltz" wrote: > HI All, > > My question is. are there any known issues with the Radian interfacing > with a generator? > > I have a customer with flickering lights. > The lights are LED ( some dimmer/some on/off) > > The generator supplier says that there are lots of problems with the > Radian. > I've not heard this and don't believe it. > > symptoms: > radian alone: no flicker > generator alone: no flicker > generator/charging flicker. > different generator: no flicker. > > So there is no doubt its the generator. > > I'm trying to get more information to go back to the customer. > > Thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Wed Mar 18 23:20:42 2015 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 20:20:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback radian question Message-ID: This sounds like the exact same issue with the FX and VFX inverters. Meter the power quality while under charge - nasty. We found a lot of computerized control systems on furnaces and boilers would either reject the power and not power up, or would behave erratically, some would be ok if you powered it up before generator on, some not. They were fine on inverter, fine on generator, but under charge bad. Ended up swapping out a lot of inverters since customers were not so keen on certain loads not operating properly when under generator charge. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of jay peltz Sent: March 18, 2015 5:32 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback radian question HI All, My question is. are there any known issues with the Radian interfacing with a generator? I have a customer with flickering lights. The lights are LED ( some dimmer/some on/off) The generator supplier says that there are lots of problems with the Radian. I've not heard this and don't believe it. symptoms: radian alone: no flicker generator alone: no flicker generator/charging flicker. different generator: no flicker. So there is no doubt its the generator. I'm trying to get more information to go back to the customer. Thanks jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 23:32:16 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 17:32:16 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback radian question In-Reply-To: References: <5509B732.7060608@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: I have not had any issues with either the FX or Radian. I have had lots of bad gennys fields failed, over under voltage, Check programming possible overloading of the genny Jerry On Mar 18, 2015 4:39 PM, "jay peltz" wrote: > HI All, > > My question is. are there any known issues with the Radian interfacing > with a generator? > > I have a customer with flickering lights. > The lights are LED ( some dimmer/some on/off) > > The generator supplier says that there are lots of problems with the > Radian. > I've not heard this and don't believe it. > > symptoms: > radian alone: no flicker > generator alone: no flicker > generator/charging flicker. > different generator: no flicker. > > So there is no doubt its the generator. > > I'm trying to get more information to go back to the customer. > > Thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay at asis.com Wed Mar 18 23:29:55 2015 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 20:29:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback radian question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6EBBACF6-4F92-46BB-8AE3-E2A0BCD7C663@asis.com> HI kevin, I agree, but with two different generators I had different outcomes. So I don't think its the inverter but the generator not having good regulation. And so far the answer isn't that the Radian has any special issues, which means I"m putting this down to the specific generator. thanks jay On Mar 18, 2015, at 8:20 PM, "Kevin Pegg" wrote: > This sounds like the exact same issue with the FX and VFX inverters. Meter the power quality while under charge - nasty. We found a lot of computerized control systems on furnaces and boilers would either reject the power and not power up, or would behave erratically, some would be ok if you powered it up before generator on, some not. They were fine on inverter, fine on generator, but under charge bad. > > Ended up swapping out a lot of inverters since customers were not so keen on certain loads not operating properly when under generator charge. > > Kevin > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On > Behalf Of jay peltz > Sent: March 18, 2015 5:32 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback radian question > > > HI All, > > My question is. are there any known issues with the Radian interfacing with a generator? > > I have a customer with flickering lights. > The lights are LED ( some dimmer/some on/off) > > The generator supplier says that there are lots of problems with the Radian. > I've not heard this and don't believe it. > > symptoms: > radian alone: no flicker > generator alone: no flicker > generator/charging flicker. > different generator: no flicker. > > So there is no doubt its the generator. > > I'm trying to get more information to go back to the customer. > > Thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From jay at asis.com Wed Mar 18 23:38:57 2015 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 20:38:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback radian question In-Reply-To: References: <5509B732.7060608@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: HI Jerry, I've done that. No change no matter where I set the charge rate. IE light load on genny ( few hundred watts) or high load. So thats not the problem. jay On Mar 18, 2015, at 8:32 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > I have not had any issues with either the FX or Radian. I have had lots of bad gennys fields failed, over under voltage, Check programming possible overloading of the genny > Jerry > > On Mar 18, 2015 4:39 PM, "jay peltz" wrote: > HI All, > > My question is. are there any known issues with the Radian interfacing with a generator? > > I have a customer with flickering lights. > The lights are LED ( some dimmer/some on/off) > > The generator supplier says that there are lots of problems with the Radian. > I've not heard this and don't believe it. > > symptoms: > radian alone: no flicker > generator alone: no flicker > generator/charging flicker. > different generator: no flicker. > > So there is no doubt its the generator. > > I'm trying to get more information to go back to the customer. > > Thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at harvesthesun.com Thu Mar 19 11:33:56 2015 From: eric at harvesthesun.com (eric at harvesthesun.com) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 08:33:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Mod skylight (clear backsheet) Message-ID: <20150319083356.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.262a902bd6.mailapi@email13.secureserver.net> Anyone have a recommendation for a PV module that doubles as a skylight, i.e., has a clear backsheet? I have a client who would like to explore the option of putting solar on his greenhouse. I mentioned that the sunlight transmission would be significantly reduced but he saw it in action somewhere else and he wants a solarized greenhouse. Thanks. SunHarvest Solar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Thu Mar 19 10:56:22 2015 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 07:56:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load sheet References: <5509B732.7060608@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <6A0F2F09091A47A3BCC292EFBF4629EA@D8XG8YH1> Wrenches, I'm always trying to update my reference for KWhrs/day for various loads, especially as time marches on folks are of course wishing to power the latest gizmo with an off-grid system. I can't seem to find very current info. The days of going into search are certainly long gone with the advent of answering/cordless phones, satellite dishes, routers, security systems, etc...creating a heck-of-a "phantom load" 24/7. Specifically, this time I'm hoping some of you have first-hand numbers on KWhrs/day for a propane fired hot tub (still has brains of some kind, ignition, pump(s), satellite dish for internet/TV and I'm not counting on-demand water heater as much of a load due to its intermittent use unless others have seen otherwise. I've never taken the "kit" approach, hoping a cookie cutter sized system will fit a need, instead trying to really nail the consumption-production dance leaving room for expansion. If there is a favorite website anyone has for more current numbers (KWhrs/day or even just watts) on current household appliances, I would appreciate it. Thx, Bill Battagin Feather River Solar Electric 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 / 6544 fax -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Thu Mar 19 11:38:11 2015 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jefferson Jarvis) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 10:38:11 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Mod skylight (clear backsheet) In-Reply-To: <20150319083356.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.262a902bd6.mailapi@email13.secureserver.net> References: <20150319083356.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.262a902bd6.mailapi@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <550AED63.8070102@aprsworld.com> Silicon Energy has panels that let light through. Expensive, but very strong. http://silicon-energy.com/ -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 www.aprsworld.com From sunengser at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 11:39:46 2015 From: sunengser at gmail.com (Bill Hoffer) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 08:39:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Mod skylight (clear backsheet) In-Reply-To: <20150319083356.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.262a902bd6.mailapi@email13.secureserver.net> References: <20150319083356.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.262a902bd6.mailapi@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: Eric Try Lumos Solarscape s Bill On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 8:33 AM, wrote: > Anyone have a recommendation for a PV module that doubles as a skylight, > i.e., has a clear backsheet? I have a client who would like to explore the > option of putting solar on his greenhouse. I mentioned that the sunlight > transmission would be significantly reduced but he saw it in action > somewhere else and he wants a solarized greenhouse. Thanks. > > SunHarvest Solar > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- William Hoffer 161 SE Fourth Ave P.O. Box 1823 White Salmon, WA 98672-1823 sunengser at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Thu Mar 19 11:54:34 2015 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 11:54:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load sheet In-Reply-To: <6A0F2F09091A47A3BCC292EFBF4629EA@D8XG8YH1> References: <5509B732.7060608@sindelarsolar.com> <6A0F2F09091A47A3BCC292EFBF4629EA@D8XG8YH1> Message-ID: <20150319155451.F40B2102F3@che.dreamhost.com> You can find a lot of loads on the energy star website. Sincerely, Glenn Burt Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. -----Original Message----- From: "frenergy" Sent: ‎3/‎19/‎2015 10:56 To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load sheet Wrenches, I'm always trying to update my reference for KWhrs/day for various loads, especially as time marches on folks are of course wishing to power the latest gizmo with an off-grid system. I can't seem to find very current info. The days of going into search are certainly long gone with the advent of answering/cordless phones, satellite dishes, routers, security systems, etc...creating a heck-of-a "phantom load" 24/7. Specifically, this time I'm hoping some of you have first-hand numbers on KWhrs/day for a propane fired hot tub (still has brains of some kind, ignition, pump(s), satellite dish for internet/TV and I'm not counting on-demand water heater as much of a load due to its intermittent use unless others have seen otherwise. I've never taken the "kit" approach, hoping a cookie cutter sized system will fit a need, instead trying to really nail the consumption-production dance leaving room for expansion. If there is a favorite website anyone has for more current numbers (KWhrs/day or even just watts) on current household appliances, I would appreciate it. Thx, Bill Battagin Feather River Solar Electric 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 / 6544 fax -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sunengser at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 12:07:03 2015 From: sunengser at gmail.com (Bill Hoffer) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 09:07:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Recommendation for torque tools In-Reply-To: <55098442.1080108@charter.net> References: <55098442.1080108@charter.net> Message-ID: Bill I like the CDI product line and use a dual scale dial indicator model for larger fasteners and their driver for smaller electrical connections. Good quality and pricing. They contract produce for SnapOn ( owned by them now) and have had their own line now for quite awhile. I prefer the dial indicator over click style to keep from over torquing the connection, especially stainless on aluminum rails! They also sell calibration tool that you can use in the shop to check when you might need to send it in for re-calibration. I believe that it is not as critical with the dial indicators because it is using a bending beam to measure rather than a spring clik mechanism. Since I do 3rd party commissioning I do check my calibration at the shop before after each job to insure accuracy. It is becoming common practice to check torques on electrical connections by using a thermal camera while under loads to identify connections that need re-torquing to keep from over torquing and busting off connectors. Loose connections show a significant higher temperature than tight ones. Bill On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 6:57 AM, Bill Loesch wrote: > > Wrenches, > > Do you have a favorite brand/model of torque wrenches when assembling > mounts to manufacturer's specs? How do you handle calibration? > > TIA, > > -- > Bill Loesch > Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar > 314 631 1094 > > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2015.0.5751 / Virus Database: 4311/9328 - Release Date: 03/18/15 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- William Hoffer 161 SE Fourth Ave P.O. Box 1823 White Salmon, WA 98672-1823 sunengser at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From starpower4u at juno.com Thu Mar 19 12:53:23 2015 From: starpower4u at juno.com (Jeff Oldham) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 16:53:23 GMT Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using a Midnite Classic for Hydro Message-ID: <20150319.095323.29712.2@webmail03.vgs.untd.com> Finding this application quite frustrating - Harris 120Vdc 1kW turbine, Classic 250, 48V batt., 1200W load dump. The manual downloaded just before purchase stated: "This mode will NOT go to resting even when the input has been disconnected and will always stay awake so the turbine has the least chance of over-spinning." It now seems that this is not the case and this sentence is no longer in the manual. My installer cannot get Midnite to confirm one way or the other and they have been guessing for over a month on how to keep the CC from going into RESTING that open circuits the hydro and puts the CC into hyperVOC at 253V and will never reconnect. To complicate things there is also ~4kW of PV on FM60's, when they drive up batt V. to above what the Classic wants it drops into RESTING and back into HyperVoc. Midnite has been very responsive and have suggested every possible setting and combination and my installer has made the 3 hour RT drive far too many times to only find the most recent "suggestion to try" another approach not working. INSOMNIA does not do as the name implies and still allows the CC to step out if external charging elevates the V above what the Classic wants. i.e. FM60 in Bulk, Absorb or EQ. when the Classic wants to Float. I fully realize that the Clipper will deal with this for a considerable amount of money, but I've heard of several folks using a Classic or Outback w/o a Clipper to deal with turbines w/o allowing freewheeling and runaway VOC. If the turbine is not dropped by the Classic the VOC will never exceed 120Vdc. Is there anyone of you out there that knows: 1) Is there a way to keep a Classic from ever moving into RESTING, a true INSOMNIA? If it will not do as originally stated in the manual I need someone to step up and say so, so we can stop guessing and wasting time.2) If so what is the secret, please? I really like all of Midnite's products and they are better than most with reasonable prices, support has always been 1st rate. This application oddly seems to have all of us at a loss pulling our hair out and losing money. With much appreciation for all input. >From the Solar, Wind and Hydro powered office of Jeff Oldham/Regenerative SOLutions ____________________________________________________________ Man, 63, Avoids Wrinkles 63 Yr Old Man Shares Simple DIY Skin Tightening Method He Uses At Home http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/550aff4de71bf7f4d66bfst04vuc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Mar 19 13:05:12 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 11:05:12 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback radian question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <550B01C8.5070002@solarray.com> Hi Kevin; I have both a comment and a question: Comment) I thought that while charging, the AC loads were simply powered directly by the generator, and the inverters were operating strictly as chargers. My experience is that it is almost always an issue of poor waveform regulation with the generator. This is easy to check with a Fluke 87 or 89. Set to quick peak capture, and see what the peak of the waveform is. A clean sine wave of 120 vac will have a peak that is 1.41 times the RMS, or 169 vac. I've seen them as low as 135, or alternatively have weird spikes into the 200s. Of course a scope reading is better, but not everyone can afford those. Question) Which inverter did you switch to that cured the problem? Thanks, R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 3/18/2015 9:20 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: > This sounds like the exact same issue with the FX and VFX inverters. Meter the power quality while under charge - nasty. We found a lot of computerized control systems on furnaces and boilers would either reject the power and not power up, or would behave erratically, some would be ok if you powered it up before generator on, some not. They were fine on inverter, fine on generator, but under charge bad. > > Ended up swapping out a lot of inverters since customers were not so keen on certain loads not operating properly when under generator charge. > > Kevin > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On > Behalf Of jay peltz > Sent: March 18, 2015 5:32 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback radian question > > > HI All, > > My question is. are there any known issues with the Radian interfacing with a generator? > > I have a customer with flickering lights. > The lights are LED ( some dimmer/some on/off) > > The generator supplier says that there are lots of problems with the Radian. > I've not heard this and don't believe it. > > symptoms: > radian alone: no flicker > generator alone: no flicker > generator/charging flicker. > different generator: no flicker. > > So there is no doubt its the generator. > > I'm trying to get more information to go back to the customer. > > Thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From william at millersolar.com Thu Mar 19 13:19:22 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (william at millersolar.com) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 10:19:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Recommendation for torque tools In-Reply-To: <55098442.1080108@charter.net> References: <55098442.1080108@charter.net> Message-ID: <02d901d06268$d7a54dc0$86efe940$@millersolar.com> Bill: We use inexpensive, generic torque wrenches. It is my impression that accuracy in torque settings is not crucial. We discovered that if we wrench tighten and come back to verify with the torque tool, we have consistently torqued at a somewhat but not significantly greater value than the tool would have. This tells me that hand tightening is not all that bad. What is a bigger concern is missing critical bolts in the torqueing process. We have developed some guidelines for this procedure: We go back and re-torque every bolt. No talking or interruptions are allowed while doing this. Every crew member is assigned a specific colored felt pen and every nut must be marked. William -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill Loesch Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2015 6:57 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Recommendation for torque tools Wrenches, Do you have a favorite brand/model of torque wrenches when assembling mounts to manufacturer's specs? How do you handle calibration? TIA, -- Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5751 / Virus Database: 4311/9328 - Release Date: 03/18/15 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From dana at solarwork.com Thu Mar 19 13:14:23 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 11:14:23 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off grid loads Load sheet In-Reply-To: <6A0F2F09091A47A3BCC292EFBF4629EA@D8XG8YH1> References: <5509B732.7060608@sindelarsolar.com> <6A0F2F09091A47A3BCC292EFBF4629EA@D8XG8YH1> Message-ID: <002901d06268$266f3ed0$734dbc70$@com> There is wide spread on the hot tubs. I have an offgrid client who bought a super-insulated (6-12" of foam) tub that heats the water with the waste heat from the (very inefficient) motor @ 120 vac. It went away when he was enlightened as to how it heated the water. I did not measure the load but it sank his battery bank. I have measured a few sat systems; 32-35 watts/hour about the same as a blue ray and DVD/CD player, & Routers at 4-12 watts/hr, answer mach @ 12-15 watts/hr with cordless phone charger charging, Garage door openers from 25-80 watts/hr depends on Manu, Motion detectors at 4-12 watts/hour depends on Manu. I have several watt hour meters I loan out for folks to do their "homework" on their loads before I do a design that helps & I see lots of variation on items. 2 years ago in LA, I went into Costco with my Brand watt hour meter and 60" flat screens were pulling 65-83 watts. I was elated to find some real efficiency and a larger screen. I went in this last holiday season and ran the meter on the "NEW Smart" 60" flat screens and the lowest draw was 95+ watts and a lot were in the 125+ watt range. The new 60" flat screens come with a wireless keyboard and were full on computers with every cable and internet ready application you can imagine. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 - No FAX Line "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of frenergy Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2015 8:56 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load sheet Wrenches, I'm always trying to update my reference for KWhrs/day for various loads, especially as time marches on folks are of course wishing to power the latest gizmo with an off-grid system. I can't seem to find very current info. The days of going into search are certainly long gone with the advent of answering/cordless phones, satellite dishes, routers, security systems, etc...creating a heck-of-a "phantom load" 24/7. Specifically, this time I'm hoping some of you have first-hand numbers on KWhrs/day for a propane fired hot tub (still has brains of some kind, ignition, pump(s), satellite dish for internet/TV and I'm not counting on-demand water heater as much of a load due to its intermittent use unless others have seen otherwise. I've never taken the "kit" approach, hoping a cookie cutter sized system will fit a need, instead trying to really nail the consumption-production dance leaving room for expansion. If there is a favorite website anyone has for more current numbers (KWhrs/day or even just watts) on current household appliances, I would appreciate it. Thx, Bill Battagin Feather River Solar Electric 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 / 6544 fax -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From windsine at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 13:26:42 2015 From: windsine at gmail.com (Windsine Inc.) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 12:26:42 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using a Midnite Classic for Hydro In-Reply-To: <20150319.095323.29712.2@webmail03.vgs.untd.com> References: <20150319.095323.29712.2@webmail03.vgs.untd.com> Message-ID: You could use a triac to feed AC from turbine directly to the dump load just before HyperVOC using the Aux relay in classic to fire the Triac. Then program the Aux logic to revert to normal when turbine voltage/RPM drops from dump load loading. Kinda like an Aux triggered bypass circuit Roy Rakobitsch NABCEP Certified Small Wind Installer® NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® NYSERDA eligible Small Wind installer Certified Advanced Tower Climbing, Safety & Rescue Wind/PV Design Engineer Windsine LLC 631-514-4166 www.windsine.org On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 11:53 AM, Jeff Oldham wrote: > Finding this application quite frustrating - Harris 120Vdc 1kW turbine, > Classic 250, 48V batt., 1200W load dump. The manual downloaded just before > purchase stated: "This mode will NOT go to resting even when the input has > been disconnected and will always stay awake so the turbine has the least > chance of over-spinning." It now seems that this is not the case and this > sentence is no longer in the manual. My installer cannot get Midnite to > confirm one way or the other and they have been guessing for over a month > on how to keep the CC from going into RESTING that open circuits the hydro > and puts the CC into hyperVOC at 253V and will never reconnect. To > complicate things there is also ~4kW of PV on FM60's, when they drive up > batt V. to above what the Classic wants it drops into RESTING and back into > HyperVoc. Midnite has been very responsive and have suggested every > possible setting and combination and my installer has made the 3 hour RT > drive far too many times to only find the most recent "suggestion to try" > another approach not working. INSOMNIA does not do as the name implies and > still allows the CC to step out if external charging elevates the V above > what the Classic wants. i.e. FM60 in Bulk, Absorb or EQ. when the Classic > wants to Float. > > I fully realize that the Clipper will deal with this for a considerable > amount of money, but I've heard of several folks using a Classic or Outback > w/o a Clipper to deal with turbines w/o allowing freewheeling and runaway > VOC. If the turbine is not dropped by the Classic the VOC will never exceed > 120Vdc. Is there anyone of you out there that knows: > > 1) Is there a way to keep a Classic from ever moving into RESTING, a true > INSOMNIA? If it will not do as originally stated in the manual I need > someone to step up and say so, so we can stop guessing and wasting time. > 2) If so what is the secret, please? > > I really like all of Midnite's products and they are better than most with > reasonable prices, support has always been 1st rate. This application oddly > seems to have all of us at a loss pulling our hair out and losing money. > > With much appreciation for all input. > > > From the Solar, Wind and Hydro powered office of Jeff Oldham/Regenerative > SOLutions > > > ____________________________________________________________ > *Man, 63, Avoids Wrinkles* > 63 Yr Old Man Shares Simple DIY Skin Tightening Method He Uses At Home > > healthylivinglifeguide.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Thu Mar 19 13:06:09 2015 From: Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com (Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 13:06:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback radian question In-Reply-To: References: <5509B732.7060608@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Hi: Here's a really good paper from Victron about in the interaction of small generators and inverters. It has waveforms and explanations about different types of generators and how they interact with the Victron inverters, but all inverters behave in very similar ways. It's a good read for getting your head around the reasons that there are, and likely will continue to be learning opportunities for both manufacturers and users of inverters and generators. All the people on Wrenches are working out the user solutions, we as inverter manufacturers are likewise working on the design solutions which will get all of us to point where we have good solutions, good business and happy customers. http://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/VE_Marine_generator_test_RVA_07-jan-2008.pdf We are all very lucky to have this forum, I'm certainly enjoying all that I'm learning. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: jay peltz To: RE-wrenches , Date: 03/19/2015 12:59 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] outback radian question Sent by: "RE-wrenches" HI Jerry, I've done that. No change no matter where I set the charge rate. IE light load on genny ( few hundred watts) or high load. So thats not the problem. jay On Mar 18, 2015, at 8:32 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: I have not had any issues with either the FX or Radian. I have had lots of bad gennys fields failed, over under voltage, Check programming possible overloading of the genny Jerry On Mar 18, 2015 4:39 PM, "jay peltz" wrote: HI All, My question is. are there any known issues with the Radian interfacing with a generator? I have a customer with flickering lights. The lights are LED ( some dimmer/some on/off) The generator supplier says that there are lots of problems with the Radian. I've not heard this and don't believe it. symptoms: radian alone: no flicker generator alone: no flicker generator/charging flicker. different generator: no flicker. So there is no doubt its the generator. I'm trying to get more information to go back to the customer. Thanks jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From boB at midnitesolar.com Thu Mar 19 14:57:03 2015 From: boB at midnitesolar.com (boB at midnitesolar.com) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 11:57:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using a Midnite Classic for Hydro In-Reply-To: References: <20150319.095323.29712.2@webmail03.vgs.untd.com> Message-ID: <550B1BFF.1020908@midnitesolar.com> Jeff, I am sorry you did not get a proper answer from tech support to a very basic question like this. I don't know who you talked with so we will flog all of them equally. I am glad that particular sentence was removed from the manual as it was not correct. You can only keep the charge controller ON if it is safe for the batteries to do so. The reason that the Classic goes to resting is because raising the input voltage is (usually) the only way to reduce battery voltage and current on its own. Insomnia will not keep the Classic operating above 250 volts input... What "Insomnia" does is to keep the Classic from going to Resting due to low power output (< ~20 watts). It won't help when the batteries are full or over full. Since you are VERY slightly over 250 volts when free-wheeling, the first thing I would try is to turn OFF the Classic mode and adjust the nozzles or flow to the turbine until it drops below 250 volts. Then no matter what, it will turn on... That is, as long as the water flow does not increase too much to cause the voltage to rise above 250 volts again when nobody is looking. Another thing that can be done, or in addition to reducing the free running Voc is to lightly load the turbine with a resistor. Better yet, use 2 or 3 resistors to load the AC side a wee bit. This works well especially if the Max Power Point voltage is quite a ways below the Voc so these resistors don't have to dissipate all that much power. I would think that this method would not be necessary though. NEXT thing to do is to adjust the Classic's battery charge set point voltage to somewhat higher than that of the FM charge controllers so that the Classic is almost always charging (when not in Float). OR, adjust the FM60/80 charge voltages slightly lower than the Classics' set point voltage. Or, a compromise, one slightly higher than wanted and the other slightly lower charge voltage to give both systems that "distance" between them. This way, the FMs will always be helping out in MPPT modes and Absorb/Float just won't matter much where that current comes from. This method will mean that the Classic is always loaded some except for those times when the charge current required from it is zero or very close to zero. Roy Rakobitsch also has a good idea which is closer to being a Clipper by using a 3-phase AC SSR, (3 Triacs), connecting all 3 phases of the turbine together. Doing this on the AC side is important. You don't want to short out the rectified DC input to a charge controller for various reasons. If you go this route, the best control is to use Aux 2. Be sure to go to Clipper mode to make sure it is set to AC mode. You could then use Clipper mode or PV ON HIGH mode using higher frequency PWM activation of the SSR. I like the Teledyne 3-phase triac SSRs personally if you decide to go this route. First, just turn down the flow slightly to reduce that free running Voc. That is probably the quickest, simplest and cheapest method. boB On 3/19/2015 10:26 AM, Windsine Inc. wrote: > You could use a triac to feed AC from turbine directly to the dump > load just before HyperVOC using the Aux relay in classic to fire the > Triac. Then program the Aux logic to revert to normal when turbine > voltage/RPM drops from dump load loading. > > Kinda like an Aux triggered bypass circuit > > Roy Rakobitsch > NABCEP Certified Small Wind Installer® > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® > NYSERDA eligible Small Wind installer > Certified Advanced Tower Climbing, Safety & Rescue > Wind/PV Design Engineer > Windsine LLC > 631-514-4166 > www.windsine.org > > > On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 11:53 AM, Jeff Oldham > wrote: > > Finding this application quite frustrating - Harris 120Vdc 1kW > turbine, Classic 250, 48V batt., 1200W load dump. The manual > downloaded just before purchase stated: "This mode will NOT go to > resting even when the input has been disconnected and will always > stay awake so the turbine has the least chance of over-spinning." > It now seems that this is not the case and this sentence is no > longer in the manual. My installer cannot get Midnite to confirm > one way or the other and they have been guessing for over a month > on how to keep the CC from going into RESTING that open circuits > the hydro and puts the CC into hyperVOC at 253V and will never > reconnect. To complicate things there is also ~4kW of PV on > FM60's, when they drive up batt V. to above what the Classic wants > it drops into RESTING and back into HyperVoc. Midnite has been > very responsive and have suggested every possible setting and > combination and my installer has made the 3 hour RT drive far too > many times to only find the most recent "suggestion to try" > another approach not working. INSOMNIA does not do as the name > implies and still allows the CC to step out if external charging > elevates the V above what the Classic wants. i.e. FM60 in Bulk, > Absorb or EQ. when the Classic wants to Float. > I fully realize that the Clipper will deal with this for a > considerable amount of money, but I've heard of several folks > using a Classic or Outback w/o a Clipper to deal with turbines w/o > allowing freewheeling and runaway VOC. If the turbine is not > dropped by the Classic the VOC will never exceed 120Vdc. Is there > anyone of you out there that knows: > 1) Is there a way to keep a Classic from ever moving into RESTING, > a true INSOMNIA? If it will not do as originally stated in the > manual I need someone to step up and say so, so we can stop > guessing and wasting time. > 2) If so what is the secret, please? > I really like all of Midnite's products and they are better than > most with reasonable prices, support has always been 1st rate. > This application oddly seems to have all of us at a loss pulling > our hair out and losing money. > With much appreciation for all input. > > > From the Solar, Wind and Hydro powered office of Jeff > Oldham/Regenerative SOLutions > > > ____________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From boB at midnitesolar.com Thu Mar 19 15:18:18 2015 From: boB at midnitesolar.com (boB at midnitesolar.com) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 12:18:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using a Midnite Classic for Hydro In-Reply-To: <550B1BFF.1020908@midnitesolar.com> References: <20150319.095323.29712.2@webmail03.vgs.untd.com> <550B1BFF.1020908@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: <550B20FA.4000900@midnitesolar.com> I forgot to mention one basic thing in the last email... I mentioned how the CC reduces the output current and output voltage but what I didn't mention is that when the battery gets fully charged, and/or the battery side can not use the power from the solar or hydro or wind source, the controller opens up the input letting the turbine free-wheel. It may either raise the input voltage as high as it can go to keep the battery voltage and current in check, OR in your case it went above 250 volts and then to Resting which is OFF. The primary purpose of the CC is to keep the battery voltage from rising above the charging set point and to give the battery maximum power/current when it needs charging. Most MPPT charge controllers operate this way. boB On 3/19/2015 11:57 AM, boB at midnitesolar.com wrote: > > Jeff, I am sorry you did not get a proper answer from tech support to > a very basic question like this. > I don't know who you talked with so we will flog all of them equally. > > I am glad that particular sentence was removed from the manual as it > was not correct. You can only > keep the charge controller ON if it is safe for the batteries to do so. > > The reason that the Classic goes to resting is because raising the > input voltage is (usually) the only way to > reduce battery voltage and current on its own. Insomnia will not keep > the Classic operating above 250 volts > input... What "Insomnia" does is to keep the Classic from going to > Resting due to low power output (< ~20 watts). > It won't help when the batteries are full or over full. > > Since you are VERY slightly over 250 volts when free-wheeling, the > first thing I would try is to turn OFF > the Classic mode and adjust the nozzles or flow to the turbine until > it drops below 250 volts. Then no > matter what, it will turn on... That is, as long as the water flow > does not increase too much to cause > the voltage to rise above 250 volts again when nobody is looking. > > Another thing that can be done, or in addition to reducing the free > running Voc is to lightly load the > turbine with a resistor. Better yet, use 2 or 3 resistors to load > the AC side a wee bit. This works well > especially if the Max Power Point voltage is quite a ways below the > Voc so these resistors don't have > to dissipate all that much power. I would think that this method > would not be necessary though. > > NEXT thing to do is to adjust the Classic's battery charge set point > voltage to somewhat higher > than that of the FM charge controllers so that the Classic is almost > always charging (when not in Float). > OR, adjust the FM60/80 charge voltages slightly lower than the > Classics' set point voltage. > Or, a compromise, one slightly higher than wanted and the other > slightly lower charge voltage > to give both systems that "distance" between them. This way, the FMs > will always be helping out > in MPPT modes and Absorb/Float just won't matter much where that > current comes from. > This method will mean that the Classic is always loaded some except > for those times when the > charge current required from it is zero or very close to zero. > > Roy Rakobitsch also has a good idea which is closer to being a Clipper > by using a 3-phase AC SSR, > (3 Triacs), connecting all 3 phases of the turbine together. Doing > this on the AC side is important. > You don't want to short out the rectified DC input to a charge > controller for various reasons. > If you go this route, the best control is to use Aux 2. Be sure to go > to Clipper mode to make > sure it is set to AC mode. You could then use Clipper mode or PV ON > HIGH mode using > higher frequency PWM activation of the SSR. I like the Teledyne > 3-phase triac SSRs personally > if you decide to go this route. > > First, just turn down the flow slightly to reduce that free running > Voc. That is probably the > quickest, simplest and cheapest method. > > boB > > > > > On 3/19/2015 10:26 AM, Windsine Inc. wrote: >> You could use a triac to feed AC from turbine directly to the dump >> load just before HyperVOC using the Aux relay in classic to fire the >> Triac. Then program the Aux logic to revert to normal when turbine >> voltage/RPM drops from dump load loading. >> >> Kinda like an Aux triggered bypass circuit >> >> Roy Rakobitsch >> NABCEP Certified Small Wind Installer® >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® >> NYSERDA eligible Small Wind installer >> Certified Advanced Tower Climbing, Safety & Rescue >> Wind/PV Design Engineer >> Windsine LLC >> 631-514-4166 >> www.windsine.org >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 11:53 AM, Jeff Oldham > > wrote: >> >> Finding this application quite frustrating - Harris 120Vdc 1kW >> turbine, Classic 250, 48V batt., 1200W load dump. The manual >> downloaded just before purchase stated: "This mode will NOT go to >> resting even when the input has been disconnected and will always >> stay awake so the turbine has the least chance of over-spinning." >> It now seems that this is not the case and this sentence is no >> longer in the manual. My installer cannot get Midnite to confirm >> one way or the other and they have been guessing for over a month >> on how to keep the CC from going into RESTING that open circuits >> the hydro and puts the CC into hyperVOC at 253V and will never >> reconnect. To complicate things there is also ~4kW of PV on >> FM60's, when they drive up batt V. to above what the Classic >> wants it drops into RESTING and back into HyperVoc. Midnite has >> been very responsive and have suggested every possible setting >> and combination and my installer has made the 3 hour RT drive far >> too many times to only find the most recent "suggestion to try" >> another approach not working. INSOMNIA does not do as the name >> implies and still allows the CC to step out if external charging >> elevates the V above what the Classic wants. i.e. FM60 in Bulk, >> Absorb or EQ. when the Classic wants to Float. >> I fully realize that the Clipper will deal with this for a >> considerable amount of money, but I've heard of several folks >> using a Classic or Outback w/o a Clipper to deal with turbines >> w/o allowing freewheeling and runaway VOC. If the turbine is not >> dropped by the Classic the VOC will never exceed 120Vdc. Is there >> anyone of you out there that knows: >> 1) Is there a way to keep a Classic from ever moving into >> RESTING, a true INSOMNIA? If it will not do as originally stated >> in the manual I need someone to step up and say so, so we can >> stop guessing and wasting time. >> 2) If so what is the secret, please? >> I really like all of Midnite's products and they are better than >> most with reasonable prices, support has always been 1st rate. >> This application oddly seems to have all of us at a loss pulling >> our hair out and losing money. >> With much appreciation for all input. >> >> >> From the Solar, Wind and Hydro powered office of Jeff >> Oldham/Regenerative SOLutions >> >> >> ____________ >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daniel at greenwired.com Thu Mar 19 15:58:48 2015 From: daniel at greenwired.com (Dan Tittmann) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 13:58:48 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using a Midnite Classic for Hydro In-Reply-To: References: <20150319.095323.29712.2@webmail03.vgs.untd.com> Message-ID: would try contacting Deric @ http://www.homehydro.com/ he likely will be able to help you. *hipower at asis.com * Daniel Tittmann CTO Greenwired www.greenwired.com daniel at greenwired.com 707-923-2001 (office) 707-206-5088 (Cell) On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 11:26 AM, Windsine Inc. wrote: > You could use a triac to feed AC from turbine directly to the dump load > just before HyperVOC using the Aux relay in classic to fire the Triac. Then > program the Aux logic to revert to normal when turbine voltage/RPM drops > from dump load loading. > > Kinda like an Aux triggered bypass circuit > > Roy Rakobitsch > NABCEP Certified Small Wind Installer® > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® > NYSERDA eligible Small Wind installer > Certified Advanced Tower Climbing, Safety & Rescue > Wind/PV Design Engineer > Windsine LLC > 631-514-4166 > www.windsine.org > > > On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 11:53 AM, Jeff Oldham > wrote: > >> Finding this application quite frustrating - Harris 120Vdc 1kW turbine, >> Classic 250, 48V batt., 1200W load dump. The manual downloaded just before >> purchase stated: "This mode will NOT go to resting even when the input has >> been disconnected and will always stay awake so the turbine has the least >> chance of over-spinning." It now seems that this is not the case and this >> sentence is no longer in the manual. My installer cannot get Midnite to >> confirm one way or the other and they have been guessing for over a month >> on how to keep the CC from going into RESTING that open circuits the hydro >> and puts the CC into hyperVOC at 253V and will never reconnect. To >> complicate things there is also ~4kW of PV on FM60's, when they drive up >> batt V. to above what the Classic wants it drops into RESTING and back into >> HyperVoc. Midnite has been very responsive and have suggested every >> possible setting and combination and my installer has made the 3 hour RT >> drive far too many times to only find the most recent "suggestion to try" >> another approach not working. INSOMNIA does not do as the name implies and >> still allows the CC to step out if external charging elevates the V above >> what the Classic wants. i.e. FM60 in Bulk, Absorb or EQ. when the Classic >> wants to Float. >> >> I fully realize that the Clipper will deal with this for a considerable >> amount of money, but I've heard of several folks using a Classic or Outback >> w/o a Clipper to deal with turbines w/o allowing freewheeling and runaway >> VOC. If the turbine is not dropped by the Classic the VOC will never exceed >> 120Vdc. Is there anyone of you out there that knows: >> >> 1) Is there a way to keep a Classic from ever moving into RESTING, a true >> INSOMNIA? If it will not do as originally stated in the manual I need >> someone to step up and say so, so we can stop guessing and wasting time. >> 2) If so what is the secret, please? >> >> I really like all of Midnite's products and they are better than most >> with reasonable prices, support has always been 1st rate. This application >> oddly seems to have all of us at a loss pulling our hair out and losing >> money. >> >> With much appreciation for all input. >> >> >> From the Solar, Wind and Hydro powered office of Jeff Oldham/Regenerative >> SOLutions >> >> >> ____________________________________________________________ >> *Man, 63, Avoids Wrinkles* >> 63 Yr Old Man Shares Simple DIY Skin Tightening Method He Uses At Home >> >> healthylivinglifeguide.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 15:55:59 2015 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 15:55:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback radian question In-Reply-To: References: <5509B732.7060608@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Jay, What generators are you trying? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Mar 19 17:11:47 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 15:11:47 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using a Midnite Classic for Hydro In-Reply-To: References: <20150319.095323.29712.2@webmail03.vgs.untd.com> Message-ID: <550B3B93.1000403@solarray.com> I'm sure somebody more knowledgable already mentioned this, but back in the last century, when wiring up C40 charge controllers for micro hydro, they were wired between the battery and the dump load, not between the hydro unit and the batteries. Basically the turbine ran fully loaded all the time, and when the batteries were full it started sending a PWM regulated current to the resistor bank. I was always under the impression that letting turbines (wind or hydro) free wheel was a really bad idea. Again we don't do a ton of hydro, hence my initial disclaimer. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 3/19/2015 1:58 PM, Dan Tittmann wrote: > would try contacting Deric @ > http://www.homehydro.com/ > he likely will be able to help you. > *hipower at asis.com * > > Daniel Tittmann > CTO > Greenwired > www.greenwired.com > daniel at greenwired.com > 707-923-2001 (office) > 707-206-5088 (Cell) > > On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 11:26 AM, Windsine Inc. > wrote: > > You could use a triac to feed AC from turbine directly to the dump > load just before HyperVOC using the Aux relay in classic to fire > the Triac. Then program the Aux logic to revert to normal when > turbine voltage/RPM drops from dump load loading. > > Kinda like an Aux triggered bypass circuit > > Roy Rakobitsch > NABCEP Certified Small Wind Installer® > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® > NYSERDA eligible Small Wind installer > Certified Advanced Tower Climbing, Safety & Rescue > Wind/PV Design Engineer > Windsine LLC > 631-514-4166 > www.windsine.org > > > On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 11:53 AM, Jeff Oldham > > wrote: > > Finding this application quite frustrating - Harris 120Vdc 1kW > turbine, Classic 250, 48V batt., 1200W load dump. The manual > downloaded just before purchase stated: "This mode will NOT go > to resting even when the input has been disconnected and will > always stay awake so the turbine has the least chance of > over-spinning." It now seems that this is not the case and > this sentence is no longer in the manual. My installer cannot > get Midnite to confirm one way or the other and they have been > guessing for over a month on how to keep the CC from going > into RESTING that open circuits the hydro and puts the CC into > hyperVOC at 253V and will never reconnect. To complicate > things there is also ~4kW of PV on FM60's, when they drive up > batt V. to above what the Classic wants it drops into RESTING > and back into HyperVoc. Midnite has been very responsive and > have suggested every possible setting and combination and my > installer has made the 3 hour RT drive far too many times to > only find the most recent "suggestion to try" another approach > not working. INSOMNIA does not do as the name implies and > still allows the CC to step out if external charging elevates > the V above what the Classic wants. i.e. FM60 in Bulk, Absorb > or EQ. when the Classic wants to Float. > I fully realize that the Clipper will deal with this for a > considerable amount of money, but I've heard of several folks > using a Classic or Outback w/o a Clipper to deal with turbines > w/o allowing freewheeling and runaway VOC. If the turbine is > not dropped by the Classic the VOC will never exceed 120Vdc. > Is there anyone of you out there that knows: > 1) Is there a way to keep a Classic from ever moving into > RESTING, a true INSOMNIA? If it will not do as originally > stated in the manual I need someone to step up and say so, so > we can stop guessing and wasting time. > 2) If so what is the secret, please? > I really like all of Midnite's products and they are better > than most with reasonable prices, support has always been 1st > rate. This application oddly seems to have all of us at a loss > pulling our hair out and losing money. > With much appreciation for all input. > > > From the Solar, Wind and Hydro powered office of Jeff > Oldham/Regenerative SOLutions > > > ____________________________________________________________ > *Man, 63, Avoids Wrinkles* > 63 Yr Old Man Shares Simple DIY Skin Tightening Method He Uses > At Home > healthylivinglifeguide.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > -- > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Thu Mar 19 17:40:29 2015 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 14:40:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback radian question Message-ID: Hi Ray, This is a bit of old news for us, goes back probably 8 years ago or so, so this is from memory and have not been able to locate the testing reports we created. We conducted extensive testing of the issue, were able to easily replicate it, didn't matter what generator being used. There was some harmonics and "noise" on the line that was specifically caused by the Outback charging circuit. We presented this information to Outback, and the response was something of the line of "ya we know but don't think it's a problem and so won't be any effort to resolve". Where we work in Canada and the north the winter sun is quite scarce and such being reliant on generators was a reality. And the most problematic loads were furnace boiler control systems that of course the clients needed to run. At the time we moved to Magnum units primarily, and then to Xantrex XW once available. The issues were immediately and permanently solved by replacing the inverter with another brand. It certainly jaded my opinion of Outback as we had to replace several systems at our cost. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: March 19, 2015 9:05 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] outback radian question Hi Kevin; I have both a comment and a question: Comment) I thought that while charging, the AC loads were simply powered directly by the generator, and the inverters were operating strictly as chargers. My experience is that it is almost always an issue of poor waveform regulation with the generator. This is easy to check with a Fluke 87 or 89. Set to quick peak capture, and see what the peak of the waveform is. A clean sine wave of 120 vac will have a peak that is 1.41 times the RMS, or 169 vac. I've seen them as low as 135, or alternatively have weird spikes into the 200s. Of course a scope reading is better, but not everyone can afford those. Question) Which inverter did you switch to that cured the problem? Thanks, R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 3/18/2015 9:20 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: > This sounds like the exact same issue with the FX and VFX inverters. Meter the power quality while under charge - nasty. We found a lot of computerized control systems on furnaces and boilers would either reject the power and not power up, or would behave erratically, some would be ok if you powered it up before generator on, some not. They were fine on inverter, fine on generator, but under charge bad. > > Ended up swapping out a lot of inverters since customers were not so keen on certain loads not operating properly when under generator charge. > > Kevin > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On > Behalf Of jay peltz > Sent: March 18, 2015 5:32 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback radian question > > > HI All, > > My question is. are there any known issues with the Radian interfacing with a generator? > > I have a customer with flickering lights. > The lights are LED ( some dimmer/some on/off) > > The generator supplier says that there are lots of problems with the Radian. > I've not heard this and don't believe it. > > symptoms: > radian alone: no flicker > generator alone: no flicker > generator/charging flicker. > different generator: no flicker. > > So there is no doubt its the generator. > > I'm trying to get more information to go back to the customer. > > Thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From russo.lou at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 19:17:38 2015 From: russo.lou at gmail.com (Lou Russo) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 13:17:38 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sub-Metering Message-ID: Aloha Wrenches, I am putting together a proposal for a grid-tied system on a 8 unit apartment building, that has yet to be built. There will be 1 utility meter for the entire building with building owner sub metering for each unit. Does anyone have any input on a simple and affordable outdoor rated metering setup, not including the standard utility meter? I am have found the following products: http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/SectionDisplay.jsp?section=37716&minisite=10251 http://www.elkor.net/product/WattsOn-Mark_II (Not sure of the enclosure on this one) Any insight or addition products would be greatly appreciated. Aloha, Lou Russo (440) 345 6762 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From starpower4u at juno.com Thu Mar 19 18:56:39 2015 From: starpower4u at juno.com (Jeff Oldham) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 22:56:39 GMT Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using a Midnite Classic for Hydro Message-ID: <20150319.155639.32402.0@webmail05.vgs.untd.com> Thanks Bob and all for the feedback. I would prefer to avoid the hassle and expense of the Triac's and gutting the hydro to remove the rectification for an AC output. We are not sure what the actual VOC freewheeling potential is because it was shutdown when it soared to 253V quickly as he did not want to smoke the Classic. I'm not thrilled about reducing jet flow rates to control VOC because that also means a reduction in output. Does anyone see any issue with my thought of setting the Classic setpoints comfortably above all Solar FM60 setpoints and letting the lower settings driving the AUX do the charge regulation via load dump? Is this just too simple and easy to be a effective solution? The load dump is a custom heater in the customers bathroom that he desires to get the most heat possible. Thus not wanting to limit hydro production that is not all that large to begin with. With continued appreciation, -jeff >From the Solar, Wind and Hydro powered office of Jeff Oldham/Regenerative SOLutions ____________________________________________________________ Man, 63, Avoids Wrinkles 63 Yr Old Man Shares Simple DIY Skin Tightening Method He Uses At Home http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/550b546822c2354685bf0st01vuc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarphil at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 22:37:38 2015 From: solarphil at gmail.com (Phil Undercuffler) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 19:37:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback radian question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There are two generator charging modes in the Radian -- Generator, and Support. Generator is also known as diode style charging (there's a diode symbol that shows up in the Mate3 screen when in this mode) because it's a simple circuit that allows the inverter to work with lower quality generators with poor regulation -- as long as the voltage is higher on that side of the circuit, energy will flow from the generator to the battery. Generators with less than ideal regulation will distort their waveform (see Jamo's reference to that very informative whitepaper), especially as loads increase or if reactive loads are present, but the battery will get charged. In Support mode, the Radian can operate in parallel with the generator, to both support loads that exceed the generator's rating but also to improve the load's power factor presented to the generator. If you're seeing spurious behavior with the customer's generator and one of the charging modes, try the other charging mode. BTW, I picked up an inexpensive USB o'scope a couple years ago from a company called Pico, it uses my laptop to be both the memory and screen. I will admit to being a bit of a gear geek, but the ability to see both voltage and current waveform overlaid on each other in real-world field conditions has been an eye opener. It's a permanent fixture in my meter bag nowadays. HTH, Phil On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 2:40 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: > Hi Ray, > > This is a bit of old news for us, goes back probably 8 years ago or so, so > this is from memory and have not been able to locate the testing reports we > created. > > We conducted extensive testing of the issue, were able to easily replicate > it, didn't matter what generator being used. There was some harmonics and > "noise" on the line that was specifically caused by the Outback charging > circuit. > > We presented this information to Outback, and the response was something > of the line of "ya we know but don't think it's a problem and so won't be > any effort to resolve". Where we work in Canada and the north the winter > sun is quite scarce and such being reliant on generators was a reality. And > the most problematic loads were furnace boiler control systems that of > course the clients needed to run. > > At the time we moved to Magnum units primarily, and then to Xantrex XW > once available. The issues were immediately and permanently solved by > replacing the inverter with another brand. > > It certainly jaded my opinion of Outback as we had to replace several > systems at our cost. > > Kevin > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On > Behalf Of Ray Walters > Sent: March 19, 2015 9:05 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] outback radian question > > > Hi Kevin; > > I have both a comment and a question: > > Comment) I thought that while charging, the AC loads were simply powered > directly by the generator, and the inverters were operating strictly as > chargers. My experience is that it is almost always an issue of poor > waveform regulation with the generator. This is easy to check with a > Fluke 87 or 89. Set to quick peak capture, and see what the peak of the > waveform is. A clean sine wave of 120 vac will have a peak that is 1.41 > times the RMS, or 169 vac. I've seen them as low as 135, or > alternatively have weird spikes into the 200s. > Of course a scope reading is better, but not everyone can afford those. > > Question) Which inverter did you switch to that cured the problem? > > Thanks, > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > On 3/18/2015 9:20 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: > > This sounds like the exact same issue with the FX and VFX inverters. > Meter the power quality while under charge - nasty. We found a lot of > computerized control systems on furnaces and boilers would either reject > the power and not power up, or would behave erratically, some would be ok > if you powered it up before generator on, some not. They were fine on > inverter, fine on generator, but under charge bad. > > > > Ended up swapping out a lot of inverters since customers were not so > keen on certain loads not operating properly when under generator charge. > > > > Kevin > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On > > Behalf Of jay peltz > > Sent: March 18, 2015 5:32 PM > > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback radian question > > > > > > HI All, > > > > My question is. are there any known issues with the Radian interfacing > with a generator? > > > > I have a customer with flickering lights. > > The lights are LED ( some dimmer/some on/off) > > > > The generator supplier says that there are lots of problems with the > Radian. > > I've not heard this and don't believe it. > > > > symptoms: > > radian alone: no flicker > > generator alone: no flicker > > generator/charging flicker. > > different generator: no flicker. > > > > So there is no doubt its the generator. > > > > I'm trying to get more information to go back to the customer. > > > > Thanks > > > > jay > > > > peltz power > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarphil at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 23:09:36 2015 From: solarphil at gmail.com (Phil Undercuffler) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 20:09:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback radian question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I wanted to expand on my prior post. Attached is a capture from a job where the CFL and LED lights in the house kept burning out. The generator was suspected (they always seemed to fail after the generator ran), but its voltage and frequency read "normal"on my Fluke 87, even a little bit low. The red trace is the current, the blue is the voltage. Note the voltage line runs off the page -- yep, the loads were seeing over 200v line to neutral, 400 L-L when charging due to the way that inverter and that generator's regulation circuit fought. I backed off the charging current until the peak voltage came back within line, there was still a spike but it wasn't sooo distorted. O'scopes and generators. Darned handy. Phil On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 7:37 PM, Phil Undercuffler wrote: > There are two generator charging modes in the Radian -- Generator, and > Support. Generator is also known as diode style charging (there's a diode > symbol that shows up in the Mate3 screen when in this mode) because it's a > simple circuit that allows the inverter to work with lower quality > generators with poor regulation -- as long as the voltage is higher on that > side of the circuit, energy will flow from the generator to the battery. > Generators with less than ideal regulation will distort their waveform (see > Jamo's reference to that very informative whitepaper), especially as loads > increase or if reactive loads are present, but the battery will get > charged. In Support mode, the Radian can operate in parallel with the > generator, to both support loads that exceed the generator's rating but > also to improve the load's power factor presented to the generator. > > If you're seeing spurious behavior with the customer's generator and one > of the charging modes, try the other charging mode. > > BTW, I picked up an inexpensive USB o'scope a couple years ago from a > company called Pico, it uses my laptop to be both the memory and screen. I > will admit to being a bit of a gear geek, but the ability to see both > voltage and current waveform overlaid on each other in real-world field > conditions has been an eye opener. It's a permanent fixture in my meter > bag nowadays. > > HTH, > > Phil > > On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 2:40 PM, Kevin Pegg > wrote: > >> Hi Ray, >> >> This is a bit of old news for us, goes back probably 8 years ago or so, >> so this is from memory and have not been able to locate the testing reports >> we created. >> >> We conducted extensive testing of the issue, were able to easily >> replicate it, didn't matter what generator being used. There was some >> harmonics and "noise" on the line that was specifically caused by the >> Outback charging circuit. >> >> We presented this information to Outback, and the response was something >> of the line of "ya we know but don't think it's a problem and so won't be >> any effort to resolve". Where we work in Canada and the north the winter >> sun is quite scarce and such being reliant on generators was a reality. And >> the most problematic loads were furnace boiler control systems that of >> course the clients needed to run. >> >> At the time we moved to Magnum units primarily, and then to Xantrex XW >> once available. The issues were immediately and permanently solved by >> replacing the inverter with another brand. >> >> It certainly jaded my opinion of Outback as we had to replace several >> systems at our cost. >> >> Kevin >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On >> Behalf Of Ray Walters >> Sent: March 19, 2015 9:05 AM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] outback radian question >> >> >> Hi Kevin; >> >> I have both a comment and a question: >> >> Comment) I thought that while charging, the AC loads were simply powered >> directly by the generator, and the inverters were operating strictly as >> chargers. My experience is that it is almost always an issue of poor >> waveform regulation with the generator. This is easy to check with a >> Fluke 87 or 89. Set to quick peak capture, and see what the peak of the >> waveform is. A clean sine wave of 120 vac will have a peak that is 1.41 >> times the RMS, or 169 vac. I've seen them as low as 135, or >> alternatively have weird spikes into the 200s. >> Of course a scope reading is better, but not everyone can afford those. >> >> Question) Which inverter did you switch to that cured the problem? >> >> Thanks, >> >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 3/18/2015 9:20 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: >> > This sounds like the exact same issue with the FX and VFX inverters. >> Meter the power quality while under charge - nasty. We found a lot of >> computerized control systems on furnaces and boilers would either reject >> the power and not power up, or would behave erratically, some would be ok >> if you powered it up before generator on, some not. They were fine on >> inverter, fine on generator, but under charge bad. >> > >> > Ended up swapping out a lot of inverters since customers were not so >> keen on certain loads not operating properly when under generator charge. >> > >> > Kevin >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On >> > Behalf Of jay peltz >> > Sent: March 18, 2015 5:32 PM >> > To: RE-wrenches >> > Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback radian question >> > >> > >> > HI All, >> > >> > My question is. are there any known issues with the Radian interfacing >> with a generator? >> > >> > I have a customer with flickering lights. >> > The lights are LED ( some dimmer/some on/off) >> > >> > The generator supplier says that there are lots of problems with the >> Radian. >> > I've not heard this and don't believe it. >> > >> > symptoms: >> > radian alone: no flicker >> > generator alone: no flicker >> > generator/charging flicker. >> > different generator: no flicker. >> > >> > So there is no doubt its the generator. >> > >> > I'm trying to get more information to go back to the customer. >> > >> > Thanks >> > >> > jay >> > >> > peltz power >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Voltage Spike Charging.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 49174 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 22:24:56 2015 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 22:24:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sub-Metering In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Why don't you use standard utility meters? Cheap, available, revenue grade. http://www.hialeahmeter.com/ On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 7:17 PM, Lou Russo wrote: > Aloha Wrenches, > > I am putting together a proposal for a grid-tied system on a 8 unit > apartment building, that has yet to be built. There will be 1 utility meter > for the entire building with building owner sub metering for each unit. > Does anyone have any input on a simple and affordable outdoor rated > metering setup, not including the standard utility meter? I am have found > the following products: > > > http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/SectionDisplay.jsp?section=37716&minisite=10251 > > http://www.elkor.net/product/WattsOn-Mark_II (Not sure of the enclosure > on this one) > > Any insight or addition products would be greatly appreciated. > > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > (440) 345 6762 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay at asis.com Thu Mar 19 21:22:00 2015 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 18:22:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using a Midnite Classic for Hydro In-Reply-To: <20150319.155639.32402.0@webmail05.vgs.untd.com> References: <20150319.155639.32402.0@webmail05.vgs.untd.com> Message-ID: <0D82C6B7-19B6-4AFC-B638-5627809A9956@asis.com> HI All, Here are a number of issues and fixes for this problem. 1. Order up a lower voltage stator from Denis at Harris Hydro. That way it won't go above the 250voc. Depending on head/flow/wire it might be the easy fix. 2. The turbine will produce higher VOC with more water feeding it. 3. You can't treat a turbine like PV. You have to set the CC to NOT regulate. IE you set the CC set points to 66v then it won't regulate. That way it'll stay connected. But there are times that you could run into trouble. If you have a specific set of conditions and the OCP trips for example on the classic, then it'll go VOC and while it probably won't damage the classic with a 48v system it will never reconnect. Or if someone turns on the hydro too fast, it might not connect. 4. Yes you can install the clipper ( its the right thing to do) as this will prevent the problem from happening. its the cost of doing biz. 5. Its really really really hard on the turbine to spin it at VOC. Tears up bearings. If the bearings go, then it'll wobble, then it'll start to wear into the magnets and then its toast. Can happen fast. 6. Yes installing the diversion controller/DC load on the output breaker of the CC is also correct. But that is for another reason, its to prevent problems IE VOC if someone disconnects the batteries or the breaker trips or someone ( or something like the cat) trips the CC output breaker. Because if the CC somehow has an issue then it'll never get to the diversion controller, and the turbine goes VOC 7.Other options. Run it 3 phase AC to a transformer/rectifier box to some lower voltage then you won't have this issue with going above the VOC of the CC. 8. Other option. You can run the CC set points 5v above what you want and then run AUX 2 5v below ( or what you actually want) and then connect the AUX 2 to the dump load. So it'll dump as the bulk/absorb/float. So the CC will never disconnect, but the diversion load will act like it is. There are more options but thats enough for now. Hope this helps. jay peltz power On Mar 19, 2015, at 3:56 PM, "Jeff Oldham" wrote: > Thanks Bob and all for the feedback. I would prefer to avoid the hassle and expense of the Triac's and gutting the hydro to remove the rectification for an AC output. We are not sure what the actual VOC freewheeling potential is because it was shutdown when it soared to 253V quickly as he did not want to smoke the Classic. I'm not thrilled about reducing jet flow rates to control VOC because that also means a reduction in output. > > Does anyone see any issue with my thought of setting the Classic setpoints comfortably above all Solar FM60 setpoints and letting the lower settings driving the AUX do the charge regulation via load dump? Is this just too simple and easy to be a effective solution? > > The load dump is a custom heater in the customers bathroom that he desires to get the most heat possible. Thus not wanting to limit hydro production that is not all that large to begin with. > > With continued appreciation, > > -jeff > > > From the Solar, Wind and Hydro powered office of Jeff Oldham/Regenerative SOLutions > > > ____________________________________________________________ > Man, 63, Avoids Wrinkles > 63 Yr Old Man Shares Simple DIY Skin Tightening Method He Uses At Home > healthylivinglifeguide.com_______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solar1online at charter.net Fri Mar 20 08:11:25 2015 From: solar1online at charter.net (Bill Loesch) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 07:11:25 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Recommendation for torque tools In-Reply-To: References: <55098442.1080108@charter.net> Message-ID: <550C0E6D.6000608@charter.net> Bill, Thanks for the tips, sources and the news that thermal imaging has another application. FLIR offers some DIY training courses but nowhere do I remember seeing this application. Thanks again. Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 On 19-Mar-15 11:07 AM, Bill Hoffer wrote: > Bill > > I like the CDI product line and use a dual > scale dial indicator model for larger fasteners and their driver for > smaller electrical connections. Good quality and pricing. They > contract produce for SnapOn ( owned by them now) and have had their > own line now for quite awhile. I prefer the dial indicator over click > style to keep from over torquing the connection, especially stainless > on aluminum rails! They also sell calibration tool that you can use > in the shop to check when you might need to send it in for > re-calibration. I believe that it is not as critical with the dial > indicators because it is using a bending beam to measure rather than a > spring clik mechanism. Since I do 3rd party commissioning I do check > my calibration at the shop before after each job to insure accuracy. > It is becoming common practice to check torques on electrical > connections by using a thermal camera while under loads to identify > connections that need re-torquing to keep from over torquing and > busting off connectors. Loose connections show a significant higher > temperature than tight ones. > > Bill > > On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 6:57 AM, Bill Loesch > wrote: > > > Wrenches, > > Do you have a favorite brand/model of torque wrenches when > assembling mounts to manufacturer's specs? How do you handle > calibration? > > TIA, > > -- > Bill Loesch > Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar > 314 631 1094 > > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2015.0.5751 / Virus Database: 4311/9328 - Release Date: > 03/18/15 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > -- > William Hoffer > 161 SE Fourth Ave > P.O. Box 1823 > White Salmon, WA 98672-1823 > sunengser at gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2015.0.5751 / Virus Database: 4311/9338 - Release Date: 03/19/15 > ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5751 / Virus Database: 4311/9342 - Release Date: 03/20/15 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Fri Mar 20 09:27:18 2015 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 06:27:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off grid loads Load sheet References: <5509B732.7060608@sindelarsolar.com> <6A0F2F09091A47A3BCC292EFBF4629EA@D8XG8YH1> <002901d06268$266f3ed0$734dbc70$@com> Message-ID: <591DBD8AC8D848B5B18242E1D8DB635E@D8XG8YH1> Dana, Specifically, I was looking for the power consumption of a propane-fired hot tub...interesting story about heating the water with the motor's waste heat though. Yes, I have several watthour meters also but the idea of going into a store and (I'm sure asking first) measuring watts of various appliances is great. Why didn't I think of that?! Maybe the best test would be going into some of my neighbors' houses and conducting the same test after all the other 'related' equipment is added the a system, EG satellite dish, dvd, computer for streaming, etc. and get some real world totals with the phantom load that goes with it (and to share with my customer to convince him/her to use a switched plugstrip). Thanks for all the other info for other loads, very helpful. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: Dana To: 'RE-wrenches' Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2015 10:14 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off grid loads Load sheet There is wide spread on the hot tubs. I have an offgrid client who bought a super-insulated (6-12" of foam) tub that heats the water with the waste heat from the (very inefficient) motor @ 120 vac. It went away when he was enlightened as to how it heated the water. I did not measure the load but it sank his battery bank. I have measured a few sat systems; 32-35 watts/hour about the same as a blue ray and DVD/CD player, & Routers at 4-12 watts/hr, answer mach @ 12-15 watts/hr with cordless phone charger charging, Garage door openers from 25-80 watts/hr depends on Manu, Motion detectors at 4-12 watts/hour depends on Manu. I have several watt hour meters I loan out for folks to do their "homework" on their loads before I do a design that helps & I see lots of variation on items. 2 years ago in LA, I went into Costco with my Brand watt hour meter and 60" flat screens were pulling 65-83 watts. I was elated to find some real efficiency and a larger screen. I went in this last holiday season and ran the meter on the "NEW Smart" 60" flat screens and the lowest draw was 95+ watts and a lot were in the 125+ watt range. The new 60" flat screens come with a wireless keyboard and were full on computers with every cable and internet ready application you can imagine. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 - No FAX Line "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of frenergy Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2015 8:56 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load sheet Wrenches, I'm always trying to update my reference for KWhrs/day for various loads, especially as time marches on folks are of course wishing to power the latest gizmo with an off-grid system. I can't seem to find very current info. The days of going into search are certainly long gone with the advent of answering/cordless phones, satellite dishes, routers, security systems, etc...creating a heck-of-a "phantom load" 24/7. Specifically, this time I'm hoping some of you have first-hand numbers on KWhrs/day for a propane fired hot tub (still has brains of some kind, ignition, pump(s), satellite dish for internet/TV and I'm not counting on-demand water heater as much of a load due to its intermittent use unless others have seen otherwise. I've never taken the "kit" approach, hoping a cookie cutter sized system will fit a need, instead trying to really nail the consumption-production dance leaving room for expansion. If there is a favorite website anyone has for more current numbers (KWhrs/day or even just watts) on current household appliances, I would appreciate it. Thx, Bill Battagin Feather River Solar Electric 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 / 6544 fax ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: FRS_working_logo, 50%.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 8424 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bzp at brick.net Fri Mar 20 08:59:40 2015 From: bzp at brick.net (frank -bz products) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 07:59:40 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using a Midnite Classic for Hydro In-Reply-To: <20150319.155639.32402.0@webmail05.vgs.untd.com> References: <20150319.155639.32402.0@webmail05.vgs.untd.com> Message-ID: <550C19BC.9030304@brick.net> Why not use a 2:1 step down transformer? The open circuit VOC would be manageable. Cost is reasonable too. Frank Lewon BZP. BZ Products INC. 8801 Gravois Rd. St.Louis MO 63123 USA 314-644-2490 www.bz-products.net --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com From jay at asis.com Fri Mar 20 10:45:03 2015 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 07:45:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using a Midnite Classic for Hydro In-Reply-To: <550C19BC.9030304@brick.net> References: <20150319.155639.32402.0@webmail05.vgs.untd.com> <550C19BC.9030304@brick.net> Message-ID: <7EF61177-CD09-4A0F-967A-68CC3D61F66E@asis.com> Hi frank Yes you can. However, that might put the volts to low and get line loss issues. My hydro guru uses multi tap transformers to get the best output voltage. You'll need three, so,they don't have to be large for a 1kw turbine. Jay Peltz power > On Mar 20, 2015, at 5:59 AM, frank -bz products wrote: > > Why not use a 2:1 step down transformer? The open circuit VOC would be manageable. Cost is reasonable too. > > Frank Lewon BZP. > > BZ Products INC. > 8801 Gravois Rd. > St.Louis MO 63123 USA > 314-644-2490 > www.bz-products.net > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > http://www.avast.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From dana at solarwork.com Fri Mar 20 11:23:33 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 09:23:33 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off grid loads Load sheet In-Reply-To: <591DBD8AC8D848B5B18242E1D8DB635E@D8XG8YH1> References: <5509B732.7060608@sindelarsolar.com> <6A0F2F09091A47A3BCC292EFBF4629EA@D8XG8YH1> <002901d06268$266f3ed0$734dbc70$@com> <591DBD8AC8D848B5B18242E1D8DB635E@D8XG8YH1> Message-ID: <003301d06321$d48793f0$7d96bbd0$@com> Motor size and run schedule. I have done DC pumped hot tubs with a Dankoff circulator pump on a timer and temp sensor. You could amp clamp the AC motor and look at run time and add 25% for inverter & battery and get relatively close along with expected soaking usage run time. Yes, I asked first and had a small crowd (6) watching by the time I was done and the TV sales rep was fascinated by the variation in power draw and why I was metering. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 - No FAX Line "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of frenergy Sent: Friday, March 20, 2015 7:27 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off grid loads Load sheet Dana, Specifically, I was looking for the power consumption of a propane-fired hot tub...interesting story about heating the water with the motor's waste heat though. Yes, I have several watthour meters also but the idea of going into a store and (I'm sure asking first) measuring watts of various appliances is great. Why didn't I think of that?! Maybe the best test would be going into some of my neighbors' houses and conducting the same test after all the other 'related' equipment is added the a system, EG satellite dish, dvd, computer for streaming, etc. and get some real world totals with the phantom load that goes with it (and to share with my customer to convince him/her to use a switched plugstrip). Thanks for all the other info for other loads, very helpful. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: Dana To: 'RE-wrenches' Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2015 10:14 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off grid loads Load sheet There is wide spread on the hot tubs. I have an offgrid client who bought a super-insulated (6-12" of foam) tub that heats the water with the waste heat from the (very inefficient) motor @ 120 vac. It went away when he was enlightened as to how it heated the water. I did not measure the load but it sank his battery bank. I have measured a few sat systems; 32-35 watts/hour about the same as a blue ray and DVD/CD player, & Routers at 4-12 watts/hr, answer mach @ 12-15 watts/hr with cordless phone charger charging, Garage door openers from 25-80 watts/hr depends on Manu, Motion detectors at 4-12 watts/hour depends on Manu. I have several watt hour meters I loan out for folks to do their "homework" on their loads before I do a design that helps & I see lots of variation on items. 2 years ago in LA, I went into Costco with my Brand watt hour meter and 60" flat screens were pulling 65-83 watts. I was elated to find some real efficiency and a larger screen. I went in this last holiday season and ran the meter on the "NEW Smart" 60" flat screens and the lowest draw was 95+ watts and a lot were in the 125+ watt range. The new 60" flat screens come with a wireless keyboard and were full on computers with every cable and internet ready application you can imagine. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 - No FAX Line "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of frenergy Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2015 8:56 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load sheet Wrenches, I'm always trying to update my reference for KWhrs/day for various loads, especially as time marches on folks are of course wishing to power the latest gizmo with an off-grid system. I can't seem to find very current info. The days of going into search are certainly long gone with the advent of answering/cordless phones, satellite dishes, routers, security systems, etc...creating a heck-of-a "phantom load" 24/7. Specifically, this time I'm hoping some of you have first-hand numbers on KWhrs/day for a propane fired hot tub (still has brains of some kind, ignition, pump(s), satellite dish for internet/TV and I'm not counting on-demand water heater as much of a load due to its intermittent use unless others have seen otherwise. I've never taken the "kit" approach, hoping a cookie cutter sized system will fit a need, instead trying to really nail the consumption-production dance leaving room for expansion. If there is a favorite website anyone has for more current numbers (KWhrs/day or even just watts) on current household appliances, I would appreciate it. Thx, Bill Battagin Feather River Solar Electric 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 / 6544 fax _____ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 8424 bytes Desc: not available URL: From starpower4u at juno.com Fri Mar 20 12:31:14 2015 From: starpower4u at juno.com (Jeff Oldham) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 16:31:14 GMT Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using a Midnite Classic for Hydro Message-ID: <20150320.093114.8448.0@webmail10.vgs.untd.com> Thanks Jay. My preferred method and most economical as well as no cost was also mentioned by you I was just asking if anyone can fault it - "8. Other option. You can run the CC set points 5v above what you want and then run AUX 2 5v below ( or what you actually want) and then connect the AUX 2 to the dump load. So it'll dump as the bulk/absorb/float. So the CC will never disconnect, but the diversion load will act like it is". This gives me full charge regulation while the CC is ALWAYS charging with the AUX doing the actual regulation. I'll stick in a time delay to minimize rapid cycling and we're good to go. I would have approached this design very differently had I known that the Classic would not actually protect the turbine from freewheeling w/o a $1000+ add on. I probably would have gone with 48V transmission and spent the money or highly reliable wire instead. However, the more I think about this AUX control method the better it is sounding as it allows high V transmission. >From the Solar, Wind and Hydro powered office of Jeff Oldham/Regenerative SOLutions ____________________________________________________________ Old School Yearbook Pics View Class Yearbooks Online Free. Search by School & Year. Look Now! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/550c4b8ccd8834b8c07e6st04vuc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Mar 20 13:15:02 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 11:15:02 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback radian question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <550C5596.2020104@solarray.com> Hi Kevin; That makes sense, if the charger is enough of a reactive load, it could introduce noise into the entire system. Just something like a hair dryer can put noise into the entire system. Did it improve with large enough generators, or not? Was this a problem when charging from the grid? Did you have any issues with controls not working on the Magnums? Thanks, R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 3/19/2015 3:40 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: > Hi Ray, > > This is a bit of old news for us, goes back probably 8 years ago or so, so this is from memory and have not been able to locate the testing reports we created. > > We conducted extensive testing of the issue, were able to easily replicate it, didn't matter what generator being used. There was some harmonics and "noise" on the line that was specifically caused by the Outback charging circuit. > > We presented this information to Outback, and the response was something of the line of "ya we know but don't think it's a problem and so won't be any effort to resolve". Where we work in Canada and the north the winter sun is quite scarce and such being reliant on generators was a reality. And the most problematic loads were furnace boiler control systems that of course the clients needed to run. > > At the time we moved to Magnum units primarily, and then to Xantrex XW once available. The issues were immediately and permanently solved by replacing the inverter with another brand. > > It certainly jaded my opinion of Outback as we had to replace several systems at our cost. > > Kevin > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On > Behalf Of Ray Walters > Sent: March 19, 2015 9:05 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] outback radian question > > > Hi Kevin; > > I have both a comment and a question: > > Comment) I thought that while charging, the AC loads were simply powered > directly by the generator, and the inverters were operating strictly as > chargers. My experience is that it is almost always an issue of poor > waveform regulation with the generator. This is easy to check with a > Fluke 87 or 89. Set to quick peak capture, and see what the peak of the > waveform is. A clean sine wave of 120 vac will have a peak that is 1.41 > times the RMS, or 169 vac. I've seen them as low as 135, or > alternatively have weird spikes into the 200s. > Of course a scope reading is better, but not everyone can afford those. > > Question) Which inverter did you switch to that cured the problem? > > Thanks, > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > On 3/18/2015 9:20 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: >> This sounds like the exact same issue with the FX and VFX inverters. Meter the power quality while under charge - nasty. We found a lot of computerized control systems on furnaces and boilers would either reject the power and not power up, or would behave erratically, some would be ok if you powered it up before generator on, some not. They were fine on inverter, fine on generator, but under charge bad. >> >> Ended up swapping out a lot of inverters since customers were not so keen on certain loads not operating properly when under generator charge. >> >> Kevin >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On >> Behalf Of jay peltz >> Sent: March 18, 2015 5:32 PM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback radian question >> >> >> HI All, >> >> My question is. are there any known issues with the Radian interfacing with a generator? >> >> I have a customer with flickering lights. >> The lights are LED ( some dimmer/some on/off) >> >> The generator supplier says that there are lots of problems with the Radian. >> I've not heard this and don't believe it. >> >> symptoms: >> radian alone: no flicker >> generator alone: no flicker >> generator/charging flicker. >> different generator: no flicker. >> >> So there is no doubt its the generator. >> >> I'm trying to get more information to go back to the customer. >> >> Thanks >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From bzp at brick.net Fri Mar 20 13:09:50 2015 From: bzp at brick.net (frank -bz products) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 12:09:50 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using a Midnite Classic for Hydro In-Reply-To: <7EF61177-CD09-4A0F-967A-68CC3D61F66E@asis.com> References: <20150319.155639.32402.0@webmail05.vgs.untd.com> <550C19BC.9030304@brick.net> <7EF61177-CD09-4A0F-967A-68CC3D61F66E@asis.com> Message-ID: <550C545E.2040608@brick.net> Industrial 3 phase multi-tap transformers taped at say 75% might be another option. Lots of transformers out there. Frank Lewon. BZ Products INC. 8801 Gravois Rd. St.Louis MO 63123 USA 314-644-2490 www.bz-products.net On 3/20/2015 9:45 AM, jay peltz wrote: > Hi frank > > Yes you can. > However, that might put the volts to low and get line loss issues. > My hydro guru uses multi tap transformers to get the best output voltage. > You'll need three, so,they don't have to be large for a 1kw turbine. > > Jay > Peltz power > > > > >> On Mar 20, 2015, at 5:59 AM, frank -bz products wrote: >> >> Why not use a 2:1 step down transformer? The open circuit VOC would be manageable. Cost is reasonable too. >> >> Frank Lewon BZP. >> >> BZ Products INC. >> 8801 Gravois Rd. >> St.Louis MO 63123 USA >> 314-644-2490 >> www.bz-products.net >> >> >> >> --- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> http://www.avast.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Fri Mar 20 13:43:44 2015 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 10:43:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback radian question Message-ID: Hi Ray, Our work is almost exclusively off-grid so wasn't able to test if same result charging from grid. These sites also had previously installed generators of different types, all tested out fine, commonly 12 kW or better capacity. Can't think of a single issue where Magnums exhibited any of the same problems. Replaced inverters, problem solved and then moved onto other tasks. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: March 20, 2015 9:15 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] outback radian question Hi Kevin; That makes sense, if the charger is enough of a reactive load, it could introduce noise into the entire system. Just something like a hair dryer can put noise into the entire system. Did it improve with large enough generators, or not? Was this a problem when charging from the grid? Did you have any issues with controls not working on the Magnums? Thanks, R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 3/19/2015 3:40 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: > Hi Ray, > > This is a bit of old news for us, goes back probably 8 years ago or so, so this is from memory and have not been able to locate the testing reports we created. > > We conducted extensive testing of the issue, were able to easily replicate it, didn't matter what generator being used. There was some harmonics and "noise" on the line that was specifically caused by the Outback charging circuit. > > We presented this information to Outback, and the response was something of the line of "ya we know but don't think it's a problem and so won't be any effort to resolve". Where we work in Canada and the north the winter sun is quite scarce and such being reliant on generators was a reality. And the most problematic loads were furnace boiler control systems that of course the clients needed to run. > > At the time we moved to Magnum units primarily, and then to Xantrex XW once available. The issues were immediately and permanently solved by replacing the inverter with another brand. > > It certainly jaded my opinion of Outback as we had to replace several systems at our cost. > > Kevin > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On > Behalf Of Ray Walters > Sent: March 19, 2015 9:05 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] outback radian question > > > Hi Kevin; > > I have both a comment and a question: > > Comment) I thought that while charging, the AC loads were simply powered > directly by the generator, and the inverters were operating strictly as > chargers. My experience is that it is almost always an issue of poor > waveform regulation with the generator. This is easy to check with a > Fluke 87 or 89. Set to quick peak capture, and see what the peak of the > waveform is. A clean sine wave of 120 vac will have a peak that is 1.41 > times the RMS, or 169 vac. I've seen them as low as 135, or > alternatively have weird spikes into the 200s. > Of course a scope reading is better, but not everyone can afford those. > > Question) Which inverter did you switch to that cured the problem? > > Thanks, > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > On 3/18/2015 9:20 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: >> This sounds like the exact same issue with the FX and VFX inverters. Meter the power quality while under charge - nasty. We found a lot of computerized control systems on furnaces and boilers would either reject the power and not power up, or would behave erratically, some would be ok if you powered it up before generator on, some not. They were fine on inverter, fine on generator, but under charge bad. >> >> Ended up swapping out a lot of inverters since customers were not so keen on certain loads not operating properly when under generator charge. >> >> Kevin >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On >> Behalf Of jay peltz >> Sent: March 18, 2015 5:32 PM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback radian question >> >> >> HI All, >> >> My question is. are there any known issues with the Radian interfacing with a generator? >> >> I have a customer with flickering lights. >> The lights are LED ( some dimmer/some on/off) >> >> The generator supplier says that there are lots of problems with the Radian. >> I've not heard this and don't believe it. >> >> symptoms: >> radian alone: no flicker >> generator alone: no flicker >> generator/charging flicker. >> different generator: no flicker. >> >> So there is no doubt its the generator. >> >> I'm trying to get more information to go back to the customer. >> >> Thanks >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From ray at solarray.com Fri Mar 20 14:04:33 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 12:04:33 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback radian question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <550C6131.4020604@solarray.com> Hi Kevin; How do you deal with the cost of the inverter replacement? Do you resell the old ones? Luckily the RE Wrenches list has helped us dodge that bullet over the years. Thanks Everybody, R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 3/20/2015 11:43 AM, Kevin Pegg wrote: > Hi Ray, > > Our work is almost exclusively off-grid so wasn't able to test if same result charging from grid. These sites also had previously installed generators of different types, all tested out fine, commonly 12 kW or better capacity. Can't think of a single issue where Magnums exhibited any of the same problems. Replaced inverters, problem solved and then moved onto other tasks. > > Kevin > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On > Behalf Of Ray Walters > Sent: March 20, 2015 9:15 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] outback radian question > > > Hi Kevin; > > That makes sense, if the charger is enough of a reactive load, it could > introduce noise into the entire system. Just something like a hair > dryer can put noise into the entire system. Did it improve with large > enough generators, or not? Was this a problem when charging from the > grid? Did you have any issues with controls not working on the Magnums? > > Thanks, > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > On 3/19/2015 3:40 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: >> Hi Ray, >> >> This is a bit of old news for us, goes back probably 8 years ago or so, so this is from memory and have not been able to locate the testing reports we created. >> >> We conducted extensive testing of the issue, were able to easily replicate it, didn't matter what generator being used. There was some harmonics and "noise" on the line that was specifically caused by the Outback charging circuit. >> >> We presented this information to Outback, and the response was something of the line of "ya we know but don't think it's a problem and so won't be any effort to resolve". Where we work in Canada and the north the winter sun is quite scarce and such being reliant on generators was a reality. And the most problematic loads were furnace boiler control systems that of course the clients needed to run. >> >> At the time we moved to Magnum units primarily, and then to Xantrex XW once available. The issues were immediately and permanently solved by replacing the inverter with another brand. >> >> It certainly jaded my opinion of Outback as we had to replace several systems at our cost. >> >> Kevin >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On >> Behalf Of Ray Walters >> Sent: March 19, 2015 9:05 AM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] outback radian question >> >> >> Hi Kevin; >> >> I have both a comment and a question: >> >> Comment) I thought that while charging, the AC loads were simply powered >> directly by the generator, and the inverters were operating strictly as >> chargers. My experience is that it is almost always an issue of poor >> waveform regulation with the generator. This is easy to check with a >> Fluke 87 or 89. Set to quick peak capture, and see what the peak of the >> waveform is. A clean sine wave of 120 vac will have a peak that is 1.41 >> times the RMS, or 169 vac. I've seen them as low as 135, or >> alternatively have weird spikes into the 200s. >> Of course a scope reading is better, but not everyone can afford those. >> >> Question) Which inverter did you switch to that cured the problem? >> >> Thanks, >> >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 3/18/2015 9:20 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: >>> This sounds like the exact same issue with the FX and VFX inverters. Meter the power quality while under charge - nasty. We found a lot of computerized control systems on furnaces and boilers would either reject the power and not power up, or would behave erratically, some would be ok if you powered it up before generator on, some not. They were fine on inverter, fine on generator, but under charge bad. >>> >>> Ended up swapping out a lot of inverters since customers were not so keen on certain loads not operating properly when under generator charge. >>> >>> Kevin >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On >>> Behalf Of jay peltz >>> Sent: March 18, 2015 5:32 PM >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback radian question >>> >>> >>> HI All, >>> >>> My question is. are there any known issues with the Radian interfacing with a generator? >>> >>> I have a customer with flickering lights. >>> The lights are LED ( some dimmer/some on/off) >>> >>> The generator supplier says that there are lots of problems with the Radian. >>> I've not heard this and don't believe it. >>> >>> symptoms: >>> radian alone: no flicker >>> generator alone: no flicker >>> generator/charging flicker. >>> different generator: no flicker. >>> >>> So there is no doubt its the generator. >>> >>> I'm trying to get more information to go back to the customer. >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> jay >>> >>> peltz power >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Fri Mar 20 14:33:33 2015 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 11:33:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback radian question Message-ID: Hi Ray, Lost a lot of money, that's how. We did not charge customers for the replacement, our focus was on making customers happy. Some clients more understanding than others. Over time were able to resell the used outback units to sites that were more summer-only recreational cottages that didn't require significant generator input, or don't have the same kind of sensitive loads and recover some money, but the labour & travel costs were losses. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: March 20, 2015 10:05 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] outback radian question Hi Kevin; How do you deal with the cost of the inverter replacement? Do you resell the old ones? Luckily the RE Wrenches list has helped us dodge that bullet over the years. Thanks Everybody, R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 3/20/2015 11:43 AM, Kevin Pegg wrote: > Hi Ray, > > Our work is almost exclusively off-grid so wasn't able to test if same result charging from grid. These sites also had previously installed generators of different types, all tested out fine, commonly 12 kW or better capacity. Can't think of a single issue where Magnums exhibited any of the same problems. Replaced inverters, problem solved and then moved onto other tasks. > > Kevin > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On > Behalf Of Ray Walters > Sent: March 20, 2015 9:15 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] outback radian question > > > Hi Kevin; > > That makes sense, if the charger is enough of a reactive load, it could > introduce noise into the entire system. Just something like a hair > dryer can put noise into the entire system. Did it improve with large > enough generators, or not? Was this a problem when charging from the > grid? Did you have any issues with controls not working on the Magnums? > > Thanks, > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > On 3/19/2015 3:40 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: >> Hi Ray, >> >> This is a bit of old news for us, goes back probably 8 years ago or so, so this is from memory and have not been able to locate the testing reports we created. >> >> We conducted extensive testing of the issue, were able to easily replicate it, didn't matter what generator being used. There was some harmonics and "noise" on the line that was specifically caused by the Outback charging circuit. >> >> We presented this information to Outback, and the response was something of the line of "ya we know but don't think it's a problem and so won't be any effort to resolve". Where we work in Canada and the north the winter sun is quite scarce and such being reliant on generators was a reality. And the most problematic loads were furnace boiler control systems that of course the clients needed to run. >> >> At the time we moved to Magnum units primarily, and then to Xantrex XW once available. The issues were immediately and permanently solved by replacing the inverter with another brand. >> >> It certainly jaded my opinion of Outback as we had to replace several systems at our cost. >> >> Kevin >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On >> Behalf Of Ray Walters >> Sent: March 19, 2015 9:05 AM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] outback radian question >> >> >> Hi Kevin; >> >> I have both a comment and a question: >> >> Comment) I thought that while charging, the AC loads were simply powered >> directly by the generator, and the inverters were operating strictly as >> chargers. My experience is that it is almost always an issue of poor >> waveform regulation with the generator. This is easy to check with a >> Fluke 87 or 89. Set to quick peak capture, and see what the peak of the >> waveform is. A clean sine wave of 120 vac will have a peak that is 1.41 >> times the RMS, or 169 vac. I've seen them as low as 135, or >> alternatively have weird spikes into the 200s. >> Of course a scope reading is better, but not everyone can afford those. >> >> Question) Which inverter did you switch to that cured the problem? >> >> Thanks, >> >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 3/18/2015 9:20 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: >>> This sounds like the exact same issue with the FX and VFX inverters. Meter the power quality while under charge - nasty. We found a lot of computerized control systems on furnaces and boilers would either reject the power and not power up, or would behave erratically, some would be ok if you powered it up before generator on, some not. They were fine on inverter, fine on generator, but under charge bad. >>> >>> Ended up swapping out a lot of inverters since customers were not so keen on certain loads not operating properly when under generator charge. >>> >>> Kevin >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On >>> Behalf Of jay peltz >>> Sent: March 18, 2015 5:32 PM >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback radian question >>> >>> >>> HI All, >>> >>> My question is. are there any known issues with the Radian interfacing with a generator? >>> >>> I have a customer with flickering lights. >>> The lights are LED ( some dimmer/some on/off) >>> >>> The generator supplier says that there are lots of problems with the Radian. >>> I've not heard this and don't believe it. >>> >>> symptoms: >>> radian alone: no flicker >>> generator alone: no flicker >>> generator/charging flicker. >>> different generator: no flicker. >>> >>> So there is no doubt its the generator. >>> >>> I'm trying to get more information to go back to the customer. >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> jay >>> >>> peltz power >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From jay at asis.com Sat Mar 21 20:12:31 2015 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 17:12:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Actual IV curves needed In-Reply-To: <550C6131.4020604@solarray.com> References: <550C6131.4020604@solarray.com> Message-ID: Hi all I'm trying to locate actual IV curves of newer modules ( I'd like to see either 36 or 72 cell, 75-250watt) In 2 conditions. 1. As close to STC as possible And 2. 1000 wm2 but at 60-70c cell temp. I can find all sorts of IV curves on line, but I don't know if they are real or drawn. And I don't know if they've been normalized or extrapolated. The reason is somewhat esoteric, and has to do with the actual I/V location using non-MPP controllers and power loss with hot temps while charging batteries. Feel free to contact me off list for more if you want. Thanks in advance Jay Peltz Power. From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Sun Mar 22 11:28:29 2015 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 11:28:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TL Code Reference Message-ID: Hey Wrenchers, Can someone point me towards where the code references the need to disconnect both conductors in an install with transformerless/ungrounded inverters? Thanks Adam Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies 4872 State Route 9G Germantown NY, 12526 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Sun Mar 22 10:06:45 2015 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 07:06:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Actual IV curves needed References: <550C6131.4020604@solarray.com> Message-ID: As another interested wrench, feel free to post this info to the list. Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric ----- Original Message ----- From: "jay peltz" To: "RE-wrenches" Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2015 5:12 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Actual IV curves needed > Hi all > > I'm trying to locate actual IV curves of newer modules ( I'd like to see > either 36 or 72 cell, 75-250watt) > > In 2 conditions. > 1. As close to STC as possible > And > 2. 1000 wm2 but at 60-70c cell temp. > > I can find all sorts of IV curves on line, but I don't know if they are > real or drawn. > And I don't know if they've been normalized or extrapolated. > > The reason is somewhat esoteric, and has to do with the actual I/V > location using non-MPP controllers and power loss with hot temps while > charging batteries. > Feel free to contact me off list for more if you want. > > Thanks in advance > > Jay > Peltz Power. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sun Mar 22 12:45:22 2015 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 12:45:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TL Code Reference In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000501d064bf$97e0af00$c7a20d00$@burt@glbcc.com> 690.13 110.3(B) -Glenn From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of AE Solar Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2015 11:28 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] TL Code Reference Hey Wrenchers, Can someone point me towards where the code references the need to disconnect both conductors in an install with transformerless/ungrounded inverters? Thanks Adam Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies 4872 State Route 9G Germantown NY, 12526 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Sun Mar 22 17:58:12 2015 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 17:58:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TL Code Reference In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In the 2014 NEC, 690.35(B) states that overcurrent protection for ungrounded PV power systems must be installed in accordance with 690.9. 690.9(E) states that an overcurrent protection device must be installed on each ungrounded conductor, i.e. both the positive and negative in ungrounded PV power sources. Also note 240.15, which also requires overcurrent protection in series with all ungrounded conductors. Cheers, Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 PV Curriculum Developer and Instructor Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 11:28 AM, AE Solar wrote: > Hey Wrenchers, > Can someone point me towards where the code references the need to > disconnect both conductors in an install with transformerless/ungrounded > inverters? Thanks > Adam > > Adam Katzman > Autonomous Energies > 4872 State Route 9G > Germantown NY, 12526 > www.autonomousenergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Sun Mar 22 18:03:26 2015 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 18:03:26 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TL Code Reference In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Whoops, hit send a little early there... In the 2014 NEC, 690.35(B) states that overcurrent protection for ungrounded PV power systems must be installed in accordance with 690.9. 690.9(E) states that an overcurrent protection device must be installed on each ungrounded conductor, i.e. both the positive and negative in ungrounded PV power sources. 690.16(A) and (B) state that disconnecting means be provided to for fuses energized on both sides (i.e. from parallel connected PV source circuits or PV output circuits). So along with 690.13, it is pretty clear that disconnects and overcurrent protection are required on both ungrounded circuit conductors. Now whether or not that'll always be the case in the future is a different story. Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 PV Curriculum Developer and Instructor Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 5:58 PM, Brian Mehalic wrote: > In the 2014 NEC, 690.35(B) states that overcurrent protection for > ungrounded PV power systems must be installed in accordance with 690.9. > 690.9(E) states that an overcurrent protection device must be installed on > each ungrounded conductor, i.e. both the positive and negative in > ungrounded PV power sources. > > Also note 240.15, which also requires overcurrent protection in series > with all ungrounded conductors. > > Cheers, > > > Brian Mehalic > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 > > PV Curriculum Developer and Instructor > Solar Energy International > http://www.solarenergy.org > > On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 11:28 AM, AE Solar > wrote: > >> Hey Wrenchers, >> Can someone point me towards where the code references the need to >> disconnect both conductors in an install with transformerless/ungrounded >> inverters? Thanks >> Adam >> >> Adam Katzman >> Autonomous Energies >> 4872 State Route 9G >> Germantown NY, 12526 >> www.autonomousenergies.com >> (518) 567-1468 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sun Mar 22 18:15:54 2015 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 18:15:54 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TL Code Reference In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20150322221629.EB04910111@che.dreamhost.com> Here in NY, we are still on the 2008 code cycle. Sincerely, Glenn Burt Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. -----Original Message----- From: "Brian Mehalic" Sent: ‎3/‎22/‎2015 17:58 To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] TL Code Reference In the 2014 NEC, 690.35(B) states that overcurrent protection for ungrounded PV power systems must be installed in accordance with 690.9. 690.9(E) states that an overcurrent protection device must be installed on each ungrounded conductor, i.e. both the positive and negative in ungrounded PV power sources. Also note 240.15, which also requires overcurrent protection in series with all ungrounded conductors. Cheers, Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 PV Curriculum Developer and Instructor Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 11:28 AM, AE Solar wrote: > Hey Wrenchers, > Can someone point me towards where the code references the need to > disconnect both conductors in an install with transformerless/ungrounded > inverters? Thanks > Adam > > Adam Katzman > Autonomous Energies > 4872 State Route 9G > Germantown NY, 12526 > www.autonomousenergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Tue Mar 24 18:11:18 2015 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 16:11:18 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging Multiple Battery Banks Message-ID: Wrenches, I have a client that wants to charge a 24v battery bank and a 48v bank with the same array. Different charge controllers, with some type of relay is what I was thinking, and using the controller's aux. 12v output for the relay control. The primary battery to be charged would be the 24v bank, then once it is fully charged, divert the pv to the secondary controller at the 48v bank. Any comments or recommendations on this would be helpful. Jeremy Rodriguez All Solar Inc. Penrose, CO -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 18:17:20 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 12:17:20 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging Multiple Battery Banks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: How big of a system are you looking at as some of the smaller charge controllers are auto sensing Jerry On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 12:11 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > Wrenches, > I have a client that wants to charge a 24v battery bank and a 48v bank > with the same array. Different charge controllers, with some type of relay > is what I was thinking, and using the controller's aux. 12v output for the > relay control. > The primary battery to be charged would be the 24v bank, then once it is > fully charged, divert the pv to the secondary controller at the 48v bank. > > Any comments or recommendations on this would be helpful. > > Jeremy Rodriguez > All Solar Inc. > Penrose, CO > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Tue Mar 24 19:07:50 2015 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 17:07:50 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging Multiple Battery Banks In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: It would be 2kw of PV Jeremy All Solar Penrose, CO Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 12:17:20 -1000 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging Multiple Battery Banks How big of a system are you looking at as some of the smaller charge controllers are auto sensing Jerry On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 12:11 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: Wrenches, I have a client that wants to charge a 24v battery bank and a 48v bank with the same array. Different charge controllers, with some type of relay is what I was thinking, and using the controller's aux. 12v output for the relay control. The primary battery to be charged would be the 24v bank, then once it is fully charged, divert the pv to the secondary controller at the 48v bank. Any comments or recommendations on this would be helpful. Jeremy Rodriguez All Solar Inc. Penrose, CO _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Mar 24 19:31:15 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 17:31:15 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging Multiple Battery Banks In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <5511F3C3.1020301@solarray.com> What's the reasoning behind two different battery banks at different voltages? What is the other equipment involved: batteries type, age, inverters, etc.? R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 3/24/2015 5:07 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > It would be 2kw of PV > > Jeremy > All Solar > Penrose, CO > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 12:17:20 -1000 > From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging Multiple Battery Banks > > How big of a system are you looking at as some of the smaller charge > controllers are auto sensing > Jerry > > On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 12:11 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez > > wrote: > > Wrenches, > I have a client that wants to charge a 24v battery bank and a 48v > bank with the same array. Different charge controllers, with some > type of relay is what I was thinking, and using the controller's > aux. 12v output for the relay control. > The primary battery to be charged would be the 24v bank, then once > it is fully charged, divert the pv to the secondary controller at > the 48v bank. > > Any comments or recommendations on this would be helpful. > > Jeremy Rodriguez > All Solar Inc. > Penrose, CO > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by > Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or > update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Tue Mar 24 21:11:08 2015 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 19:11:08 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging Multiple Battery Banks In-Reply-To: <5511F3C3.1020301@solarray.com> References: <5511F3C3.1020301@solarray.com> Message-ID: The thought was to charge the batteries for a new building utilizing an SW4024 with new classic controller and new L A batteries, and once those batteries are charged send the PV to the house system which is the 48v setup with dual outback inverters and dual SB3048 CCs. Lead acid batteries as well. 3 years old I've never had this come up in 16 years! Jeremy Rodriguez All Solar, Inc. 1463 M Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > On Mar 24, 2015, at 5:31 PM, "Ray Walters" wrote: > > What's the reasoning behind two different battery banks at different voltages? What is the other equipment involved: batteries type, age, inverters, etc.? > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 >> On 3/24/2015 5:07 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: >> It would be 2kw of PV >> >> Jeremy >> All Solar >> Penrose, CO >> >> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 12:17:20 -1000 >> From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com >> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging Multiple Battery Banks >> >> How big of a system are you looking at as some of the smaller charge controllers are auto sensing >> Jerry >> >> On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 12:11 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: >> Wrenches, >> I have a client that wants to charge a 24v battery bank and a 48v bank with the same array. Different charge controllers, with some type of relay is what I was thinking, and using the controller's aux. 12v output for the relay control. >> The primary battery to be charged would be the 24v bank, then once it is fully charged, divert the pv to the secondary controller at the 48v bank. >> >> Any comments or recommendations on this would be helpful. >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> All Solar Inc. >> Penrose, CO >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Tue Mar 24 21:54:11 2015 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 18:54:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging Multiple Battery Banks Message-ID: Interesting! I was head-scratching as to how to do an identical task. I'd think a contactor on the HV PV output side suitably rated for voltage/current triggered by the aux output once the Classic goes into float would do the trick. I recall the Classic has that feature but never used it yet. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of Jeremy Rodriguez Sent: March 24, 2015 5:11 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging Multiple Battery Banks The thought was to charge the batteries for a new building utilizing an SW4024 with new classic controller and new L A batteries, and once those batteries are charged send the PV to the house system which is the 48v setup with dual outback inverters and dual SB3048 CCs. Lead acid batteries as well. 3 years old I've never had this come up in 16 years! Jeremy Rodriguez All Solar, Inc. 1463 M Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! On Mar 24, 2015, at 5:31 PM, "Ray Walters" < ray at solarray.com> wrote: What's the reasoning behind two different battery banks at different voltages? What is the other equipment involved: batteries type, age, inverters, etc.? R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 3/24/2015 5:07 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: It would be 2kw of PV Jeremy All Solar Penrose, CO _____ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 12:17:20 -1000 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging Multiple Battery Banks How big of a system are you looking at as some of the smaller charge controllers are auto sensing Jerry On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 12:11 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez < allsolarjeremy at msn.com> wrote: Wrenches, I have a client that wants to charge a 24v battery bank and a 48v bank with the same array. Different charge controllers, with some type of relay is what I was thinking, and using the controller's aux. 12v output for the relay control. The primary battery to be charged would be the 24v bank, then once it is fully charged, divert the pv to the secondary controller at the 48v bank. Any comments or recommendations on this would be helpful. Jeremy Rodriguez All Solar Inc. Penrose, CO _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 23:15:07 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 17:15:07 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging Multiple Battery Banks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: OK wrenches here me out, yes this does work simple path of least resistance. I did this for a alarm system, 1 PV array connected to two OB MX-60's both get the the same array leads and one went to AGM's and the other went to FLA L-16's, mine were all 48 volt banks but i dont see that being an issue. I set the volts and max amps where i wanted. Once the the AGM's get full the CC just stoped feeding it and instead it flows to the L-16's. Now if the L-16's are low in the AM, that CC will feed them first until current drops enough then its picked up by the AGM's. You will just have to try it to see but if you need put a contactor on the output thats voltage controlled. Untill you try it and get the CC's set it is hard to beleave but it works Jerry On Mar 24, 2015 3:54 PM, "Kevin Pegg" wrote: > Interesting! I was head-scratching as to how to do an identical task. > I'd think a contactor on the HV PV output side suitably rated for > voltage/current triggered by the aux output once the Classic goes into > float would do the trick. I recall the Classic has that feature but never > used it yet. > > Kevin > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]*On > Behalf Of *Jeremy Rodriguez > *Sent:* March 24, 2015 5:11 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging Multiple Battery Banks > > The thought was to charge the batteries for a new building utilizing an > SW4024 with new classic controller and new L A batteries, and once those > batteries are charged send the PV to the house system which is the 48v > setup with dual outback inverters and dual SB3048 CCs. Lead acid batteries > as well. 3 years old > I've never had this come up in 16 years! > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > > On Mar 24, 2015, at 5:31 PM, "Ray Walters" wrote: > > What's the reasoning behind two different battery banks at different > voltages? What is the other equipment involved: batteries type, age, > inverters, etc.? > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 > > On 3/24/2015 5:07 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > > It would be 2kw of PV > > Jeremy > All Solar > Penrose, CO > > ------------------------------ > Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 12:17:20 -1000 > From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging Multiple Battery Banks > > How big of a system are you looking at as some of the smaller charge > controllers are auto sensing > Jerry > > On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 12:11 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez > wrote: > > Wrenches, > I have a client that wants to charge a 24v battery bank and a 48v bank > with the same array. Different charge controllers, with some type of relay > is what I was thinking, and using the controller's aux. 12v output for the > relay control. > The primary battery to be charged would be the 24v bank, then once it is > fully charged, divert the pv to the secondary controller at the 48v bank. > > Any comments or recommendations on this would be helpful. > > Jeremy Rodriguez > All Solar Inc. > Penrose, CO > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood > Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change > listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or > update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Wed Mar 25 12:36:49 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Larry) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 09:36:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging Multiple Battery Banks In-Reply-To: References: <5511F3C3.1020301@solarray.com> Message-ID: <5512E421.3080808@starlightsolar.com> Keep in mind that the Midnite controller has a combined PV and bat. negative and the Blue Sky requires isolated PV and bat. negative. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On 3/24/15 6:11 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > The thought was to charge the batteries for a new building utilizing > an SW4024 with new classic controller and new L A batteries, and once > those batteries are charged send the PV to the house system which is > the 48v setup with dual outback inverters and dual SB3048 CCs. Lead > acid batteries as well. 3 years old > I've never had this come up in 16 years! > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > > On Mar 24, 2015, at 5:31 PM, "Ray Walters" > wrote: > >> What's the reasoning behind two different battery banks at different >> voltages? What is the other equipment involved: batteries type, age, >> inverters, etc.? >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> On 3/24/2015 5:07 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: >>> It would be 2kw of PV >>> >>> Jeremy >>> All Solar >>> Penrose, CO >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 12:17:20 -1000 >>> From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com >>> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging Multiple Battery Banks >>> >>> How big of a system are you looking at as some of the smaller charge >>> controllers are auto sensing >>> Jerry >>> >>> On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 12:11 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez >>> > wrote: >>> >>> Wrenches, >>> I have a client that wants to charge a 24v battery bank and a >>> 48v bank with the same array. Different charge controllers, with >>> some type of relay is what I was thinking, and using the >>> controller's aux. 12v output for the relay control. >>> The primary battery to be charged would be the 24v bank, then >>> once it is fully charged, divert the pv to the secondary >>> controller at the 48v bank. >>> >>> Any comments or recommendations on this would be helpful. >>> >>> Jeremy Rodriguez >>> All Solar Inc. >>> Penrose, CO >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by >>> Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out >>> or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Mar 25 13:24:52 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 11:24:52 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging Multiple Battery Banks In-Reply-To: <5512E421.3080808@starlightsolar.com> References: <5511F3C3.1020301@solarray.com> <5512E421.3080808@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <5512EF64.90605@solarray.com> Hi Jeremy; I usually would combine both buildings all into one system, KISS principle, and also less cost. Later when those batteries die, replace with a properly sized bank. I also wouldn't be building a new system around an SW4024, those are getting really dated. Great inverter, but they don't last forever. They have excellent resell value on Ebay for folks that need replacements in dual and quad systems. Having said that, Jerry's idea of 2 controllers on one array sounds like it would work, but not with Blue Sky because of the grounding as Larry mentioned. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 3/25/2015 10:36 AM, Larry wrote: > Keep in mind that the Midnite controller has a combined PV and bat. > negative and the Blue Sky requires isolated PV and bat. negative. > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > On 3/24/15 6:11 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: >> The thought was to charge the batteries for a new building utilizing >> an SW4024 with new classic controller and new L A batteries, and once >> those batteries are charged send the PV to the house system which is >> the 48v setup with dual outback inverters and dual SB3048 CCs. Lead >> acid batteries as well. 3 years old >> I've never had this come up in 16 years! >> >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> All Solar, Inc. >> 1463 M >> Penrose Colorado 81240 >> >> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! >> >> On Mar 24, 2015, at 5:31 PM, "Ray Walters" > > wrote: >> >>> What's the reasoning behind two different battery banks at different >>> voltages? What is the other equipment involved: batteries type, age, >>> inverters, etc.? >>> R.Ray Walters >>> CTO, Solarray, Inc >>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >>> Licensed Master Electrician >>> Solar Design Engineer >>> 303 505-8760 >>> On 3/24/2015 5:07 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: >>>> It would be 2kw of PV >>>> >>>> Jeremy >>>> All Solar >>>> Penrose, CO >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 12:17:20 -1000 >>>> From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com >>>> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging Multiple Battery Banks >>>> >>>> How big of a system are you looking at as some of the smaller >>>> charge controllers are auto sensing >>>> Jerry >>>> >>>> On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 12:11 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Wrenches, >>>> I have a client that wants to charge a 24v battery bank and a >>>> 48v bank with the same array. Different charge controllers, >>>> with some type of relay is what I was thinking, and using the >>>> controller's aux. 12v output for the relay control. >>>> The primary battery to be charged would be the 24v bank, then >>>> once it is fully charged, divert the pv to the secondary >>>> controller at the 48v bank. >>>> >>>> Any comments or recommendations on this would be helpful. >>>> >>>> Jeremy Rodriguez >>>> All Solar Inc. >>>> Penrose, CO >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by >>>> Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out >>>> or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay at asis.com Wed Mar 25 11:51:22 2015 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 08:51:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging Multiple Battery Banks In-Reply-To: References: <5511F3C3.1020301@solarray.com> Message-ID: How about running AC between the two locations and then you can battery charge via external charger or SW4024.? Jay peltz power On Mar 24, 2015, at 6:11 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > The thought was to charge the batteries for a new building utilizing an SW4024 with new classic controller and new L A batteries, and once those batteries are charged send the PV to the house system which is the 48v setup with dual outback inverters and dual SB3048 CCs. Lead acid batteries as well. 3 years old > I've never had this come up in 16 years! > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > > On Mar 24, 2015, at 5:31 PM, "Ray Walters" wrote: > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Wed Mar 25 14:04:52 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Larry) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 11:04:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging Multiple Battery Banks In-Reply-To: <5512EF64.90605@solarray.com> References: <5511F3C3.1020301@solarray.com> <5512E421.3080808@starlightsolar.com> <5512EF64.90605@solarray.com> Message-ID: <5512F8C4.6000302@starlightsolar.com> The Blue Sky should still work as long as he switches PV positive and negative. However, I like the idea of charging just the 24 volt system and feeding AC to the Outbacks to charge the 48 volt bank. A little more loss but mush easier to implement. You could easily control when AC is fed to the 48 volt system based on voltage of the 24 volt battery. Larry On 3/25/15 10:24 AM, Ray Walters wrote: > Hi Jeremy; > > I usually would combine both buildings all into one system, KISS > principle, and also less cost. Later when those batteries die, replace > with a properly sized bank. I also wouldn't be building a new system > around an SW4024, those are getting really dated. Great inverter, but > they don't last forever. They have excellent resell value on Ebay for > folks that need replacements in dual and quad systems. > Having said that, Jerry's idea of 2 controllers on one array sounds > like it would work, but not with Blue Sky because of the grounding as > Larry mentioned. > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > On 3/25/2015 10:36 AM, Larry wrote: >> Keep in mind that the Midnite controller has a combined PV and bat. >> negative and the Blue Sky requires isolated PV and bat. negative. >> Larry Crutcher >> Starlight Solar Power Systems >> On 3/24/15 6:11 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: >>> The thought was to charge the batteries for a new building utilizing >>> an SW4024 with new classic controller and new L A batteries, and >>> once those batteries are charged send the PV to the house system >>> which is the 48v setup with dual outback inverters and dual SB3048 >>> CCs. Lead acid batteries as well. 3 years old >>> I've never had this come up in 16 years! >>> >>> >>> Jeremy Rodriguez >>> All Solar, Inc. >>> 1463 M >>> Penrose Colorado 81240 >>> >>> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! >>> >>> On Mar 24, 2015, at 5:31 PM, "Ray Walters" >> > wrote: >>> >>>> What's the reasoning behind two different battery banks at >>>> different voltages? What is the other equipment involved: batteries >>>> type, age, inverters, etc.? >>>> R.Ray Walters >>>> CTO, Solarray, Inc >>>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >>>> Licensed Master Electrician >>>> Solar Design Engineer >>>> 303 505-8760 >>>> On 3/24/2015 5:07 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: >>>>> It would be 2kw of PV >>>>> >>>>> Jeremy >>>>> All Solar >>>>> Penrose, CO >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 12:17:20 -1000 >>>>> From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com >>>>> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging Multiple Battery Banks >>>>> >>>>> How big of a system are you looking at as some of the smaller >>>>> charge controllers are auto sensing >>>>> Jerry >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 12:11 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez >>>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Wrenches, >>>>> I have a client that wants to charge a 24v battery bank and a >>>>> 48v bank with the same array. Different charge controllers, >>>>> with some type of relay is what I was thinking, and using the >>>>> controller's aux. 12v output for the relay control. >>>>> The primary battery to be charged would be the 24v bank, then >>>>> once it is fully charged, divert the pv to the secondary >>>>> controller at the 48v bank. >>>>> >>>>> Any comments or recommendations on this would be helpful. >>>>> >>>>> Jeremy Rodriguez >>>>> All Solar Inc. >>>>> Penrose, CO >>>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Wed Mar 25 16:00:33 2015 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 16:00:33 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging Multiple Battery Banks In-Reply-To: <5512EF64.90605@solarray.com> References: <5511F3C3.1020301@solarray.com> <5512E421.3080808@starlightsolar.com> <5512EF64.90605@solarray.com> Message-ID: Try looking at the New Midnite Kid, allows for two parallel charge controllers off the same input. I too have systems that I use 2 CCs for alarm systems pull the 2nd CC "PV source input" from the 48 VBB and charge the 24 VBB. disable MPPT I will also agree RU outta of yer mind? Yep the SW 4024s were.... that is were!, work horses but not to many around. can you say a ticking Tbomb if this is powering a load in some remote place w/ hi customer expectations On Mar 25, 2015, at 1:24 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > Hi Jeremy; > > I usually would combine both buildings all into one system, KISS principle, and also less cost. Later when those batteries die, replace with a properly sized bank. I also wouldn't be building a new system around an SW4024, those are getting really dated. Great inverter, but they don't last forever. They have excellent resell value on Ebay for folks that need replacements in dual and quad systems. > Having said that, Jerry's idea of 2 controllers on one array sounds like it would work, but not with Blue Sky because of the grounding as Larry mentioned. > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > On 3/25/2015 10:36 AM, Larry wrote: >> Keep in mind that the Midnite controller has a combined PV and bat. negative and the Blue Sky requires isolated PV and bat. negative. >> Larry Crutcher >> Starlight Solar Power Systems >> On 3/24/15 6:11 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: >>> The thought was to charge the batteries for a new building utilizing an SW4024 with new classic controller and new L A batteries, and once those batteries are charged send the PV to the house system which is the 48v setup with dual outback inverters and dual SB3048 CCs. Lead acid batteries as well. 3 years old >>> I've never had this come up in 16 years! >>> >>> >>> Jeremy Rodriguez >>> All Solar, Inc. >>> 1463 M >>> Penrose Colorado 81240 >>> >>> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! >>> >>> On Mar 24, 2015, at 5:31 PM, "Ray Walters" wrote: >>> >>>> What's the reasoning behind two different battery banks at different voltages? What is the other equipment involved: batteries type, age, inverters, etc.? >>>> R.Ray Walters >>>> CTO, Solarray, Inc >>>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >>>> Licensed Master Electrician >>>> Solar Design Engineer >>>> 303 505-8760 >>>> On 3/24/2015 5:07 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: >>>>> It would be 2kw of PV >>>>> >>>>> Jeremy >>>>> All Solar >>>>> Penrose, CO >>>>> >>>>> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 12:17:20 -1000 >>>>> From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com >>>>> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging Multiple Battery Banks >>>>> >>>>> How big of a system are you looking at as some of the smaller charge controllers are auto sensing >>>>> Jerry >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 12:11 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: >>>>> Wrenches, >>>>> I have a client that wants to charge a 24v battery bank and a 48v bank with the same array. Different charge controllers, with some type of relay is what I was thinking, and using the controller's aux. 12v output for the relay control. >>>>> The primary battery to be charged would be the 24v bank, then once it is fully charged, divert the pv to the secondary controller at the 48v bank. >>>>> >>>>> Any comments or recommendations on this would be helpful. >>>>> >>>>> Jeremy Rodriguez >>>>> All Solar Inc. >>>>> Penrose, CO >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Wed Mar 25 16:13:26 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 14:13:26 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SW4024 In-Reply-To: References: <5511F3C3.1020301@solarray.com> <5512E421.3080808@starlightsolar.com> <5512EF64.90605@solarray.com> Message-ID: <006c01d06738$27b46e30$771d4a90$@com> (5) SW4024 change outs last year, they just wore out. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 - No FAX Line "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Tump Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2015 2:01 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging Multiple Battery Banks Try looking at the New Midnite Kid, allows for two parallel charge controllers off the same input. I too have systems that I use 2 CCs for alarm systems pull the 2nd CC "PV source input" from the 48 VBB and charge the 24 VBB. disable MPPT I will also agree RU outta of yer mind? Yep the SW 4024s were.... that is were!, work horses but not to many around. can you say a ticking Tbomb if this is powering a load in some remote place w/ hi customer expectations On Mar 25, 2015, at 1:24 PM, Ray Walters wrote: Hi Jeremy; I usually would combine both buildings all into one system, KISS principle, and also less cost. Later when those batteries die, replace with a properly sized bank. I also wouldn't be building a new system around an SW4024, those are getting really dated. Great inverter, but they don't last forever. They have excellent resell value on Ebay for folks that need replacements in dual and quad systems. Having said that, Jerry's idea of 2 controllers on one array sounds like it would work, but not with Blue Sky because of the grounding as Larry mentioned. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 3/25/2015 10:36 AM, Larry wrote: Keep in mind that the Midnite controller has a combined PV and bat. negative and the Blue Sky requires isolated PV and bat. negative. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On 3/24/15 6:11 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: The thought was to charge the batteries for a new building utilizing an SW4024 with new classic controller and new L A batteries, and once those batteries are charged send the PV to the house system which is the 48v setup with dual outback inverters and dual SB3048 CCs. Lead acid batteries as well. 3 years old I've never had this come up in 16 years! Jeremy Rodriguez All Solar, Inc. 1463 M Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! On Mar 24, 2015, at 5:31 PM, "Ray Walters" wrote: What's the reasoning behind two different battery banks at different voltages? What is the other equipment involved: batteries type, age, inverters, etc.? R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 3/24/2015 5:07 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: It would be 2kw of PV Jeremy All Solar Penrose, CO _____ Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 12:17:20 -1000 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging Multiple Battery Banks How big of a system are you looking at as some of the smaller charge controllers are auto sensing Jerry On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 12:11 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: Wrenches, I have a client that wants to charge a 24v battery bank and a 48v bank with the same array. Different charge controllers, with some type of relay is what I was thinking, and using the controller's aux. 12v output for the relay control. The primary battery to be charged would be the 24v bank, then once it is fully charged, divert the pv to the secondary controller at the 48v bank. Any comments or recommendations on this would be helpful. Jeremy Rodriguez All Solar Inc. Penrose, CO _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net Solarwinds Northernlights Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 Blair "TUMP" May ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Wed Mar 25 20:10:20 2015 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 17:10:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping Message-ID: Wrenches, A site visit discovered two of the AC input breakers on L2 inverters had tripped but the handles didn't move. A forced reset of the breakers resolved the issue. System back to proper operations and customer is happy. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of Phil Undercuffler Sent: March 18, 2015 3:46 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping There was a certification update the last year or so where UL standards on transformers changed. If you have an X240 that came with a 25, then it was from the old math. The X240s that ship under the new math have 20A breakers. Like you, I've installed tons of X240s with 25A breakers, but either one works. Phil On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 1:18 PM, Jerry Shafer < jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com> wrote: Phil Please confirm i have built lots of ps2 and 4 seams to always have 25's on the x240 not 20's Jerry On Mar 18, 2015 10:04 AM, "Phil Undercuffler" < solarphil at gmail.com> wrote: The PSX-240 (independent unit in enclosure) has active cooling, so it has a higher capacity and therefore the 25A breaker. The X-240 (bare xformer) should have a 20A. The good news is, in OutBack Stacking the xformer is balancing the phases, which since there are inverters on both phases means that it typically is only processing 1-2kW or so, usually much less. Phil On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 10:34 AM, Allan Sindelar < allan at sindelarsolar.com> wrote: Kevin and Matt, Good advice from Matt. Just one detail: On the Outback PSX-240 (the independent unit with enclosure) the output breakers are 25A, not 20A. I suspect that the 2P breaker for the X-240 would be the same. As the unit often operates at close to its capacity, this could make a difference. Allan Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell On 3/17/2015 2:56 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: Thanks, Matt for the details here. I will be heading out to the site in the next little while and will report back what was found. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [ mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of Matt James Sent: March 17, 2015 12:22 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping Kevin, Not sure what happened on the dropped communication, but I had responded to you last week with some possible answers and things to check. I think I made the mistake of replying directly to your email address and not sending to the entire Re-Wrenches forum, sorry for that as I know this is information that could be helpful to others as well. In any case, Tump is right -- on an existing system where everything has been working fine for some time but now isn’t, the key is to isolate, isolate, isolate. Turn off all AC input, output and transformer breakers, then wake up each inverter by increasing the Power Save Level Master Adjust one step at a time. Confirm proper AC voltage line to neutral at the inverter’s AC output terminals – all breakers are still open. Close the breaker to the X240 balancing transformer, then close the AC output breakers of one inverter at a time, starting with the Master. Confirm that all inverters are on and have proper voltage and phasing by verifying proper AC voltage line to neutral, line to line as measured at the AC output terminals and to the output bus bars – all inverters should show 120 L-N, and any inverters programmed as L1 Slaves should show 0v L-L to the Master and 240v L-L to L2 Slaves. L2 slaves This establishes a baseline to ensure that all the power electronics, magnetics, wiring and programming are working properly. Next, start the generator and close all the input breakers. Measure AC voltage at the inverter’s input terminals, confirm that each is seeing the proper voltage and phasing. Verify that the inverters sync to and connect to the generator, and begin to charge. Measure the AC current on both phases of the generator, and verify that they are balanced. Some potential issues are: 1. Bad X240 breaker. Take a spare, 20A 2 pole DIN. 2. Transformer insulation damaged, typically by overheating. Rather unlikely, but possible. 3. Failed or mis-wired or mis-programmed inverter, likely on L2. Due to the distance to the site, consider taking a replacement board set with you. Alternately, the system can operate on both legs with the other inverters, even if it’s an uneven number, through OutBack Stacking until you can schedule another trip. 4. Heavily imbalanced load or generator. If the charging currents on the generator are imbalanced, one possible solution is to disconnect the neutral from the generator at the power system end. This presents a pure 240v load to the genset, which will force the currents to be balanced on both phases. Feel free to contact me directly if you have any problems or questions. Best Regards, Matt James Applications Engineering Manager OutBack Power Technologies Inc. Direct: (360) 618-4364 Cell: (360) 618-2869 From: RE-wrenches [ mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Pegg Sent: Monday, March 16, 2015 10:51 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping Thanks for everyone's advise on this one. I've done as much as I can working with the caretaker remotely and will need to attend myself with some test gear to fully diagnose. This site is remote (10h of driving then 1h boat ride). I generally make a point of avoiding Outback product so feel much better informed to diagnose when onsite - later in the week. Thanks. Curious what is going on with Outback's tech support. I waited on hold for a bit on Wednesday, then left a message for callback and am still waiting for that callback 3 business days later. My client is most upset that Outback can't even bother to return a tech call. His instructions to me are if we find multiple failed components in the system and not simple fixes to remove the gear and replace with "anything as long as it's not Outback". Will advise the list what was discovered once onsite. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [ mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of frenergy Sent: March 16, 2015 6:38 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping Kevin, Not to add any confusion but I recently had to re-program the slave in a 2 VFX with Xfrmr system as it was doing the same thing...the 2 pole xfrmr breaker was tripping when a moderate load was on. Granted this was not happening during charging though. I think I changed the slave from OB slave L1 to OB slave L2 and all was good. It doesn't seem likely the programming in your case would have been messed with having been working well for years prior. Curious to hear though of a solution eventually. Bill Feather River Solar Electric 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 / 6544 fax ----- Original Message ----- From: Tump To: RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, March 16, 2015 5:39 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping Have you turned the breaker on the t240 to the off position? One does NOT have to have that operational for the system to operate correctly.The old t240 has about the same parasitic draw as an inverter. Isolate, Isolate, Isolate. If the system functions correctly w/ the t240 off and the stacking is correct on this q stack disconnect it(the t240). Otherwise I would remove the inverter com cables and only connect 1 pair of inverters at a time, reset the mate with the correct com cables connected to P1& P2. Sometimes something so simple as disconnecting & reconnection the mate can have quite a benefit. Again I would, if you are really stuck on having the t240 operational, then try it with each inverter as a single unit then try the second set of inverters. Disconnect the #s1&2 inverters and do the same; connect #s 3&4 P1 & P2, to see exactly which component may be your problem. You are more then happy to contact me off list if you choose. contact info below. Tump On Mar 15, 2015, at 5:04 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Wrenches OK if the X240 blows the fuse which is on the output of the inverter while the inverter is charging, excessive current must be passing through from one inverter and back to the output of another inverter ( a form of AC coupling gone bad). The time delay fits as the inverter ramps up, I would look at the contactors in each slave as one may be hanging or ther may be a bad board, easy way to test is to isolate each inverter and with a amp meter connected at the X240 see if current goes away in the X240 as it should not be doing much with light loads on the "House" side of the inverters. The X240 is 25 amps while the inverters are 50 amps. Sounds like a interesting one to diagnose. Jerry On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 11:59 AM, Chris Worcester < chris at solarwindworks.com> wrote: Hi Kevin, I have seen the X240's trip off like this when theyare over loaded. When this was happening to us the slave inverters had blown AC boards and some times Control and FET boards too. We had a hard time diagnosing this as their green lights were on. Using a clamp on amp meter on each inverter's AC IN conductor while charging with the gen set allowed us to compare their charging currents to each other. Typically the ones with blown AC boards output would be close to zero amps. So the X240's were doing double duty and they will smoke too if the inverters aren't delta with. Sincerely, Chris Worcester 530-448-9692 Sent from my Galaxy S®III -------- Original message -------- From: Kevin Pegg Date:03/11/2015 1:19 PM (GMT-08:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping Hello Wrenches, Customer in remote location has a strange situation come up on an existing system installed (by others) 6 or so years go. Quad stack VFX3648. Last night gen start was triggered by low voltage - a normal system operation. Approx 1h into charge, they lost 1/2 the circuits in house - L2 de-energized. Caretaker went to check power system and noticed the X240 breakers tripped. Tried to reset but it tripped out right away. So he left it as is and called me in the morning. Here's what I've been able to determine today: - The x240 is installed to bridge L1 & L2 on the load side. - with master inverter on, 3 slaves off, both L1 and L2 energized so suggests x240 is working. - within 10 seconds of generator on and charging, x240 breaker trips (and makes L2 go dark). - loads are minor, ~1,000 w of misc lights and such, isn't all loaded up on one leg. Appreciate any thoughts to remedy. I'm not as familiar with this config as others. Kevin Pegg EA Energy Alternatives Ltd. 37471 Hwy 16 E Telkwa, BC V0J 2X2 250-846-9888 Http://www.EnergyAlternatives.ca _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net Solarwinds Northernlights Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 Blair "TUMP" May ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" _____ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Wed Mar 25 23:07:53 2015 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 21:07:53 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging Multiple Battery Banks In-Reply-To: <5512EF64.90605@solarray.com> References: <5511F3C3.1020301@solarray.com> <5512E421.3080808@starlightsolar.com> <5512EF64.90605@solarray.com> Message-ID: I'm sure he will use the SW until it dies. I would. Never thought of running AC from the 24v side to the dual outbacks to charge the 48 V BB. Would need a xfmr though right? I would install a separate Midnite CC for each battery bank. I know the classics output 12v at the aux, so what type of relay could be used? Does it need to be solid state ? I would feel better using some type of control, or as was mentioned, maybe talk him into just hooking everything up to the OB system at the house. The 24v side would be for occasional use only. Thanks for the input! Jeremy Rodriguez All Solar, Inc. 1463 M Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > On Mar 25, 2015, at 11:25 AM, "Ray Walters" wrote: > > Hi Jeremy; > > I usually would combine both buildings all into one system, KISS principle, and also less cost. Later when those batteries die, replace with a properly sized bank. I also wouldn't be building a new system around an SW4024, those are getting really dated. Great inverter, but they don't last forever. They have excellent resell value on Ebay for folks that need replacements in dual and quad systems. > Having said that, Jerry's idea of 2 controllers on one array sounds like it would work, but not with Blue Sky because of the grounding as Larry mentioned. > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 >> On 3/25/2015 10:36 AM, Larry wrote: >> Keep in mind that the Midnite controller has a combined PV and bat. negative and the Blue Sky requires isolated PV and bat. negative. >> Larry Crutcher >> Starlight Solar Power Systems >>> On 3/24/15 6:11 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: >>> The thought was to charge the batteries for a new building utilizing an SW4024 with new classic controller and new L A batteries, and once those batteries are charged send the PV to the house system which is the 48v setup with dual outback inverters and dual SB3048 CCs. Lead acid batteries as well. 3 years old >>> I've never had this come up in 16 years! >>> >>> >>> Jeremy Rodriguez >>> All Solar, Inc. >>> 1463 M >>> Penrose Colorado 81240 >>> >>> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! >>> >>> On Mar 24, 2015, at 5:31 PM, "Ray Walters" wrote: >>> >>>> What's the reasoning behind two different battery banks at different voltages? What is the other equipment involved: batteries type, age, inverters, etc.? >>>> R.Ray Walters >>>> CTO, Solarray, Inc >>>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >>>> Licensed Master Electrician >>>> Solar Design Engineer >>>> 303 505-8760 >>>>> On 3/24/2015 5:07 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: >>>>> It would be 2kw of PV >>>>> >>>>> Jeremy >>>>> All Solar >>>>> Penrose, CO >>>>> >>>>> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 12:17:20 -1000 >>>>> From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com >>>>> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging Multiple Battery Banks >>>>> >>>>> How big of a system are you looking at as some of the smaller charge controllers are auto sensing >>>>> Jerry >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 12:11 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: >>>>> Wrenches, >>>>> I have a client that wants to charge a 24v battery bank and a 48v bank with the same array. Different charge controllers, with some type of relay is what I was thinking, and using the controller's aux. 12v output for the relay control. >>>>> The primary battery to be charged would be the 24v bank, then once it is fully charged, divert the pv to the secondary controller at the 48v bank. >>>>> >>>>> Any comments or recommendations on this would be helpful. >>>>> >>>>> Jeremy Rodriguez >>>>> All Solar Inc. >>>>> Penrose, CO >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at seesolar.com Thu Mar 26 04:58:42 2015 From: max at seesolar.com (Max Balchowsky) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 08:58:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging Multiple Battery Banks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <295886075.2018500.1427360322518.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Does anyone have any experience with the PowerGrid battery system (by Clean Energy)? we are getting ready to install a 27kW array with a 22kWH Battery Bank and 4 Schneider/Xantrex XW 6848's. Max Balchowsky Design Engineer Golden Bridge Development 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 760-403-6810"Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" From: Jeremy Rodriguez To: RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2015 8:07 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging Multiple Battery Banks I'm sure he will use the SW until it dies. I would. Never thought of running AC from the 24v side to the dual outbacks to charge the 48 V BB. Would need a xfmr though right?I would install a separate Midnite CC for each battery bank. I know the classics output 12v at the aux, so what type of relay could be used? Does it need to be solid state ?I would feel better using some type of control, or as was mentioned, maybe talk him into just hooking everything up to the OB system at the house. The 24v side would be for occasional use only.  Thanks for the input! Jeremy Rodriguez All Solar, Inc. 1463 M Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! On Mar 25, 2015, at 11:25 AM, "Ray Walters" wrote: Hi Jeremy; I usually would combine both buildings all into one system, KISS principle, and also less cost. Later when those batteries die, replace with a properly sized bank.  I also wouldn't be building a new system around an SW4024, those are getting really dated. Great inverter, but they don't last forever.  They have excellent resell value on Ebay for folks that need replacements in dual and quad systems. Having said that, Jerry's idea of 2 controllers on one array sounds like it would work, but not with Blue Sky because of the grounding as Larry mentioned. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 3/25/2015 10:36 AM, Larry wrote: Keep in mind that the Midnite controller has a combined PV and bat. negative and the Blue Sky requires isolated PV and bat. negative. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On 3/24/15 6:11 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: The thought was to charge the batteries for a new building utilizing an SW4024 with new classic controller and new L A batteries, and once those batteries are charged send the PV to the house system which is the 48v setup with dual outback inverters and dual SB3048 CCs.  Lead acid batteries as well. 3 years old  I've never had this come up in 16 years! Jeremy Rodriguez  All Solar, Inc.  1463 M Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! On Mar 24, 2015, at 5:31 PM, "Ray Walters" wrote: What's the reasoning behind two different battery banks at different voltages? What is the other equipment involved: batteries type, age, inverters, etc.? R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 3/24/2015 5:07 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: #yiv6321955796 #yiv6321955796 --.yiv6321955796hmmessage P{margin:0px;padding:0px;}#yiv6321955796 body.yiv6321955796hmmessage{font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}#yiv6321955796 It would be 2kw of PV Jeremy All Solar Penrose, CO Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 12:17:20 -1000 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging Multiple Battery Banks How big of a system are you looking at as some of the smaller charge controllers are auto sensing Jerry On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 12:11 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: Wrenches, I have a client that wants to charge a 24v battery bank and a 48v bank with the same array. Different charge controllers, with some type of relay is what I was thinking, and using the controller's aux. 12v output for the relay control. The primary battery to be charged would be the 24v bank, then once it is fully charged, divert the pv to the secondary controller at the 48v bank. Any comments or recommendations on this would be helpful. Jeremy Rodriguez All Solar Inc. Penrose, CO _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay at asis.com Thu Mar 26 11:05:26 2015 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 08:05:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging Multiple Battery Banks In-Reply-To: <295886075.2018500.1427360322518.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <295886075.2018500.1427360322518.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <73A5A612-CCC6-4F56-95A3-ED282EB85F63@asis.com> Do,you have a web site for them? And do you mean 220kwh? Jay Peltz power > On Mar 26, 2015, at 1:58 AM, Max Balchowsky wrote: > > Does anyone have any experience with the PowerGrid battery system (by Clean Energy)? we are getting ready to install a 27kW array with a 22kWH Battery Bank and > 4 Schneider/Xantrex XW 6848's. > > > Max Balchowsky > Design Engineer > Golden Bridge Development > 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 > Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 > 760-403-6810 > "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" > > From: Jeremy Rodriguez > To: RE-wrenches > Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2015 8:07 PM > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging Multiple Battery Banks > > I'm sure he will use the SW until it dies. I would. > Never thought of running AC from the 24v side to the dual outbacks to charge the 48 V BB. Would need a xfmr though right? > I would install a separate Midnite CC for each battery bank. I know the classics output 12v at the aux, so what type of relay could be used? Does it need to be solid state ? > I would feel better using some type of control, or as was mentioned, maybe talk him into just hooking everything up to the OB system at the house. > The 24v side would be for occasional use only. > > Thanks for the input! > > Jeremy Rodriguez > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > > > >> On Mar 25, 2015, at 11:25 AM, "Ray Walters" wrote: >> > > > Hi Jeremy; > > I usually would combine both buildings all into one system, KISS principle, and also less cost. Later when those batteries die, replace with a properly sized bank. I also wouldn't be building a new system around an SW4024, those are getting really dated. Great inverter, but they don't last forever. They have excellent resell value on Ebay for folks that need replacements in dual and quad systems. > Having said that, Jerry's idea of 2 controllers on one array sounds like it would work, but not with Blue Sky because of the grounding as Larry mentioned. > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 >> On 3/25/2015 10:36 AM, Larry wrote: > > Keep in mind that the Midnite controller has a combined PV and bat. negative and the Blue Sky requires isolated PV and bat. negative. > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems >> On 3/24/15 6:11 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > > The thought was to charge the batteries for a new building utilizing an SW4024 with new classic controller and new L A batteries, and once those batteries are charged send the PV to the house system which is the 48v setup with dual outback inverters and dual SB3048 CCs. Lead acid batteries as well. 3 years old > I've never had this come up in 16 years! > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > > On Mar 24, 2015, at 5:31 PM, "Ray Walters" wrote: > > > What's the reasoning behind two different battery banks at different voltages? What is the other equipment involved: batteries type, age, inverters, etc.? > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 >> On 3/24/2015 5:07 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: >> It would be 2kw of PV >> >> Jeremy >> All Solar >> Penrose, CO >> >> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 12:17:20 -1000 >> From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com >> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging Multiple Battery Banks >> >> How big of a system are you looking at as some of the smaller charge controllers are auto sensing >> Jerry >> >> On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 12:11 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: >> Wrenches, >> I have a client that wants to charge a 24v battery bank and a 48v bank with the same array. Different charge controllers, with some type of relay is what I was thinking, and using the controller's aux. 12v output for the relay control. >> The primary battery to be charged would be the 24v bank, then once it is fully charged, divert the pv to the secondary controller at the 48v bank. >> >> Any comments or recommendations on this would be helpful. >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> All Solar Inc. >> Penrose, CO >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > 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URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Mar 26 13:28:31 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 11:28:31 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24 VDC constant power supply off of 24 volt PV system Message-ID: <012401d067ea$4844eff0$d8cecfd0$@com> Hey All, I am tasked to supply a frontage sign that uses 24 VDC but the voltage window is a low 24 & max of 25-26 volts. Is anyone aware of an efficient DC/DC fixed power supply 24-29 vdc battery range and 24-26 vdc output/ Load is 60-70 watts? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 - No FAX Line "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bzp at brick.net Thu Mar 26 15:35:58 2015 From: bzp at brick.net (frank -bz products) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 14:35:58 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24 VDC constant power supply off of 24 volt PV system In-Reply-To: <012401d067ea$4844eff0$d8cecfd0$@com> References: <012401d067ea$4844eff0$d8cecfd0$@com> Message-ID: <55145F9E.5080800@brick.net> Hi Dana, Check Mouser or Future electronics. BZ Products INC. 8801 Gravois Rd. St.Louis MO 63123 USA 314-644-2490 www.bz-products.net On 3/26/2015 12:28 PM, Dana wrote: > > Hey All, > > I am tasked to supply a frontage sign that uses 24 VDC but the voltage > window is a low 24 & max of 25-26 volts. > > Is anyone aware of an efficient DC/DC fixed power supply 24-29 vdc > battery range and 24-26 vdc output/ Load is 60-70 watts? > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > *Dana Orzel* > > _Great Solar Works, Inc - *NABCEP # 051112-136*_ > > *E*- dana at solarwork.com - *Web* - solarwork.com > > *O*- 970.626.5253 *C *- 208.721.7003 - No FAX Line > > *_"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" _**__* > > *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarwindworks.com Thu Mar 26 15:33:50 2015 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 12:33:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 48 VDC to 24 VDC Relay Message-ID: <031301d067fb$ca2eeeb0$5e8ccc10$@solarwindworks.com> Hello fellow wrenches; We are attempting to control a small 24 VDC motorized damper motor on a nominal 48 VDC off grid system. The damper is next to an Air Heater divert load in a wall that is controlled by a MorningStar TS60 to take the top off the 48 V battery bank at 56.8 volts. We have a 48 VDC Bergey XL.1 on the system now. So I really can use some advice on finding a relay that will allow power to the damper motor, when the TS60 is on. We are powering the damper motor with a 48V to 24 V DC to DC converter, that is working well, we have an on/off switch in the circuit, for a manual over ride. Thanks in advance for any and all help! Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP Certified PV Installer Office 530-582-4503 Cell 530-448-9692 Fax 530-582-4603 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 17:44:16 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 11:44:16 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 48 VDC to 24 VDC Relay In-Reply-To: <031301d067fb$ca2eeeb0$5e8ccc10$@solarwindworks.com> References: <031301d067fb$ca2eeeb0$5e8ccc10$@solarwindworks.com> Message-ID: There is a liniar converter avalible they convert either from 48 to 24 and the other way too. I am away till next week so i cant the brand. Jerry On Mar 26, 2015 10:47 AM, "Chris Worcester" wrote: > Hello fellow wrenches; > > We are attempting to control a small 24 VDC motorized damper motor on a > nominal 48 VDC off grid system. The damper is next to an Air Heater divert > load in a wall that is controlled by a MorningStar TS60 to take the top off > the 48 V battery bank at 56.8 volts. We have a 48 VDC Bergey XL.1 on the > system now. > > So I really can use some advice on finding a relay that will allow power > to the damper motor, when the TS60 is on. We are powering the damper motor > with a 48V to 24 V DC to DC converter, that is working well, we have an > on/off switch in the circuit, for a manual over ride. Thanks in advance for > any and all help! > > > > Chris Worcester > > Solar Wind Works > > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > > Office 530-582-4503 > > Cell 530-448-9692 > > Fax 530-582-4603 > > www.solarwindworks.com > > chris at solarwindworks.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Thu Mar 26 17:45:01 2015 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 14:45:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24 VDC constant power supply off of 24 volt PV system Message-ID: The website doesn't list all products, but their CV Constant Voltage series will do this. Built to order to your needs. Give them a call. http://www.solarconverters.com/index.php/products/85-dc-dc-step-up-controllers-cv Kevin -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of Dana Sent: March 26, 2015 9:29 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24 VDC constant power supply off of 24 volt PV system Hey All, I am tasked to supply a frontage sign that uses 24 VDC but the voltage window is a low 24 & max of 25-26 volts. Is anyone aware of an efficient DC/DC fixed power supply 24-29 vdc battery range and 24-26 vdc output/ Load is 60-70 watts? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 - No FAX Line "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at independentpowerllc.com Thu Mar 26 20:24:28 2015 From: dave at independentpowerllc.com (Dave) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 20:24:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex SW 4048 inverter and Frigidaire Message-ID: <018101d06824$63d550e0$2b7ff2a0$@com> Wrenches, Older off grid system having trouble with Frigidaire washer and dryer needing expensive repairs every year or so when run on a Xantrex SW 4048/S inverter manufactured in June 2005. Not one of my installs so I don't know the particulars. Homeowners are looking for advice on what would work better with this ten year old SW. Or, should they invest in a new inverter? Thanks, Dave David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-888-7194 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay at asis.com Thu Mar 26 20:48:17 2015 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 17:48:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex SW 4048 inverter and Frigidaire In-Reply-To: <018101d06824$63d550e0$2b7ff2a0$@com> References: <018101d06824$63d550e0$2b7ff2a0$@com> Message-ID: HI Dave, Could be the SW, but I would check it on a scope to see the wave form. Lots of other reasons for the failure. New inverter might be in order, but I'd check to see what else is going on. jay peltz power On Mar 26, 2015, at 5:24 PM, "Dave" wrote: > Wrenches, > > Older off grid system having trouble with Frigidaire washer and dryer needing expensive repairs every year or so when run on a Xantrex SW 4048/S inverter manufactured in June 2005. > > Not one of my installs so I don't know the particulars. > > Homeowners are looking for advice on what would work better with this ten year old SW. Or, should they invest in a new inverter? > > Thanks, > Dave > > David Palumbo > Independent Power LLC > 462 Solar Way Drive > Hyde Park, VT 05655 > 802-888-7194 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Thu Mar 26 22:29:44 2015 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 19:29:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex SW 4048 inverter and Frigidaire References: <018101d06824$63d550e0$2b7ff2a0$@com> Message-ID: <7AACF8B4060045E6A914FE779165682A@D8XG8YH1> Dave, Do you know what it is that's failing?...electronics or motor? Is it the same in both? Have these failures been happening since the 4048 was fired up or more recently? Is there a lot of generator run time? Bill Feather River Solar Electric ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave To: 'RE-wrenches' Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2015 5:24 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex SW 4048 inverter and Frigidaire Wrenches, Older off grid system having trouble with Frigidaire washer and dryer needing expensive repairs every year or so when run on a Xantrex SW 4048/S inverter manufactured in June 2005. Not one of my installs so I don't know the particulars. Homeowners are looking for advice on what would work better with this ten year old SW. Or, should they invest in a new inverter? Thanks, Dave David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-888-7194 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Fri Mar 27 00:30:37 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 22:30:37 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex SW 4048 inverter and Frigidaire In-Reply-To: <7AACF8B4060045E6A914FE779165682A@D8XG8YH1> References: <018101d06824$63d550e0$2b7ff2a0$@com> <7AACF8B4060045E6A914FE779165682A@D8XG8YH1> Message-ID: <5514DCED.2030207@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Fri Mar 27 05:52:17 2015 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 05:52:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex SW 4048 inverter and Frigidaire In-Reply-To: <5514DCED.2030207@sindelarsolar.com> References: <018101d06824$63d550e0$2b7ff2a0$@com> <7AACF8B4060045E6A914FE779165682A@D8XG8YH1> <5514DCED.2030207@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <5B09F73A-93E9-414A-9E66-A02225173AF7@swnl.net> As for the older SWs we installed the cap on the output side, that being said I have seen GFIC outlets causing problems but I have not seen these issues w/ my SMA SI. Sounds to me that; being the professional you are, suggesting the replacement of the older SW with something that may be less frustrating ( new inverters and their firm ware upgrades, less frustrating yeah right!?) better performance and eliminating costly washer repairs. If I were to try and rectify the issue, then I will usual start w/ the removal of the gfic, cap on the ac output, (we would just installed it on the questionable load's circuit,0 OR offer a credit for the old SW and try to sell them the SMA SI 6K inverter and then work your way down to their budget. On Mar 27, 2015, at 12:30 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > Dave, > This was a Wrenches discussion topic, somewhere between 2001 and 2005.There was a fundamental incompatibility between the SW series and the electronics of certain new model washers. The early Maytag Neptunes and front-loading, electronically-controlled Frigidaires had issues with the mod-sine waveform of the SW series. I looked in my archives but have nothing saved about that. You might find the original thread in the online archives. If the "expensive controls" include control boards or related, this could be an ongoing issue with this combination. > > We only had one experience with the issue, and it doesn't offer a useful solution. A Y2K installation with dual SW55548s wouldn't run a Frigidaire front-load washer. Adding a large power capacitor across the input (per Wrenches and possibly Xantrex tech support advice) didn't solve it; switching the washer circuit to the other inverter did. We never did figure that one out. > > Just yesterday there was a thread here on "charging multiple battery banks" dual systems, 24 and 48V, sharing a switched array. The 24V was a SW4024. Many of us still care for systems based on that series, and have good respect for it, but as they get older and support gets tougher, the energy seems to be shifting toward replacement. > Allan > > Allan Sindelar > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > 505 780-2738 cell > > > On 3/26/2015 8:29 PM, frenergy wrote: >> Dave, >> >> Do you know what it is that's failing?...electronics or motor? Is it the same in both? Have these failures been happening since the 4048 was fired up or more recently? Is there a lot of generator run time? >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Dave >> To: 'RE-wrenches' >> Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2015 5:24 PM >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex SW 4048 inverter and Frigidaire >> >> Wrenches, >> >> Older off grid system having trouble with Frigidaire washer and dryer needing expensive repairs every year or so when run on a Xantrex SW 4048/S inverter manufactured in June 2005. >> >> Not one of my installs so I don't know the particulars. >> >> Homeowners are looking for advice on what would work better with this ten year old SW. Or, should they invest in a new inverter? >> >> Thanks, >> Dave >> >> David Palumbo >> Independent Power LLC >> 462 Solar Way Drive >> Hyde Park, VT 05655 >> 802-888-7194 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Fri Mar 27 08:18:59 2015 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (dan at foxfire-energy.com) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 05:18:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs Roof Mount for Shedding snow Message-ID: <20150327051859.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.627f7a3f02.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sigimg0 Type: image/png Size: 25138 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dave at independentpowerllc.com Fri Mar 27 09:55:58 2015 From: dave at independentpowerllc.com (Dave) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 09:55:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex SW 4048 inverter and Frigidaire In-Reply-To: <5B09F73A-93E9-414A-9E66-A02225173AF7@swnl.net> References: <018101d06824$63d550e0$2b7ff2a0$@com> <7AACF8B4060045E6A914FE779165682A@D8XG8YH1> <5514DCED.2030207@sindelarsolar.com> <5B09F73A-93E9-414A-9E66-A02225173AF7@swnl.net> Message-ID: <021001d06895$c0ed3010$42c79030$@com> Tump, Allan, Bill & Jay; Good advice as always. I spoke with homeowner this morning and he says that it has been the control boards on the Frigidaire's that have failed on the SW4048. He did get advice a couple of yrs ago to add a capacitor and that did not help. Inverter is not having any other problems that he knows of, as of yet. He will decide between changing the inverter or changing his washer & dryer. Thank you, Dave From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Tump Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 5:52 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex SW 4048 inverter and Frigidaire As for the older SWs we installed the cap on the output side, that being said I have seen GFIC outlets causing problems but I have not seen these issues w/ my SMA SI. Sounds to me that; being the professional you are, suggesting the replacement of the older SW with something that may be less frustrating ( new inverters and their firm ware upgrades, less frustrating yeah right!?) better performance and eliminating costly washer repairs. If I were to try and rectify the issue, then I will usual start w/ the removal of the gfic, cap on the ac output, (we would just installed it on the questionable load's circuit,0 OR offer a credit for the old SW and try to sell them the SMA SI 6K inverter and then work your way down to their budget. On Mar 27, 2015, at 12:30 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: Dave, This was a Wrenches discussion topic, somewhere between 2001 and 2005.There was a fundamental incompatibility between the SW series and the electronics of certain new model washers. The early Maytag Neptunes and front-loading, electronically-controlled Frigidaires had issues with the mod-sine waveform of the SW series. I looked in my archives but have nothing saved about that. You might find the original thread in the online archives. If the "expensive controls" include control boards or related, this could be an ongoing issue with this combination. We only had one experience with the issue, and it doesn't offer a useful solution. A Y2K installation with dual SW55548s wouldn't run a Frigidaire front-load washer. Adding a large power capacitor across the input (per Wrenches and possibly Xantrex tech support advice) didn't solve it; switching the washer circuit to the other inverter did. We never did figure that one out. Just yesterday there was a thread here on "charging multiple battery banks" dual systems, 24 and 48V, sharing a switched array. The 24V was a SW4024. Many of us still care for systems based on that series, and have good respect for it, but as they get older and support gets tougher, the energy seems to be shifting toward replacement. Allan Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell On 3/26/2015 8:29 PM, frenergy wrote: Dave, Do you know what it is that's failing?...electronics or motor? Is it the same in both? Have these failures been happening since the 4048 was fired up or more recently? Is there a lot of generator run time? Bill Feather River Solar Electric ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave To: 'RE-wrenches' Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2015 5:24 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex SW 4048 inverter and Frigidaire Wrenches, Older off grid system having trouble with Frigidaire washer and dryer needing expensive repairs every year or so when run on a Xantrex SW 4048/S inverter manufactured in June 2005. Not one of my installs so I don't know the particulars. Homeowners are looking for advice on what would work better with this ten year old SW. Or, should they invest in a new inverter? Thanks, Dave David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-888-7194 _____ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net Solarwinds Northernlights Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 Blair "TUMP" May ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at independentpowerllc.com Fri Mar 27 10:32:52 2015 From: dave at independentpowerllc.com (Dave) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 10:32:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs Roof Mount for Shedding snow In-Reply-To: <20150327051859.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.627f7a3f02.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> References: <20150327051859.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.627f7a3f02.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <022101d0689a$e88336b0$b989a410$@com> Dan, What do you mean by "tilt up racking". Would an example be a rack that adds 15 degrees to a 5/12 roof? Good idea (as long as wind load is taken care of) for cold snow country (certainly for off grid) to get the tilt angle higher which helps with snow shedding. BUT if it's super cold like this winter here in northern New England nothing helps as much as a snow rake. On a side note. I had a couple of monitored grid tied systems with second story roof top arrays that produced very little power from January through second week of March. 80% less kWh than similar first story roof top arrays where the homeowner raked off snow. It was so cold that in one period this winter that it did not get over 30 degrees F for 48 consecutive days here, with many nights at 15 to 30 below zero. February was the coldest on record (since 1886) with temps that were 15 degrees below average for the month. No snow shedding going on at all. On another type of array. My adjustable ground mount here set at 90 degrees had a great winter as I regularly saw 1,750 to 1,950W out of my Apollo CC from a 1,440W array on sunny days because of MPPT and the reflective bounce of sunlight off the snow in front of the array. I never have to touch those modules from mid November, when I tilt them to 90 degrees, until after it stops snowing significantly (mid April usually). Best, Dave David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-888-7194 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of dan at foxfire-energy.com Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 8:19 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs Roof Mount for Shedding snow Hi Guys, I have a customer who seems convinced that tilt up racking sheds snow better than conventional roof mounted arrays (irregardless of angle or panel manufacturer). Anyone else find this is true? Thanks db Dan Brown Foxfire Energy Corp. Renewable Energy Systems (802)-483-2564 www.Foxfire-Energy.com NABCEP #092907-44 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 25138 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dana at solarwork.com Fri Mar 27 10:12:49 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 08:12:49 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs Roof Mount for Shedding snow In-Reply-To: <20150327051859.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.627f7a3f02.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> References: <20150327051859.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.627f7a3f02.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <01bf01d06898$238a2c80$6a9e8580$@com> Snow starts to naturally avalanche at 32+ deg. There are a couple of aspects that I design with if you want snow to slide: Angle & the big thing is giving the snow somewhere to go. If it builds up and accumulates it does not matter what angle you set it to. To install 2 modules in a column on a roof and allow for snow (depending on elevation & yearly snow levels) I will allow for 24-36 inches below just to allow the snow to drop off & accumulate slide away or melt. Roof composition influences this also, as painted metal roofs tend to slide, rusty metal kind of stick and comp roofs just hold the snow till it melts. When it melts go boating! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 - No FAX Line "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of dan at foxfire-energy.com Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 6:19 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs Roof Mount for Shedding snow Hi Guys, I have a customer who seems convinced that tilt up racking sheds snow better than conventional roof mounted arrays (irregardless of angle or panel manufacturer). Anyone else find this is true? Thanks db Dan Brown Foxfire Energy Corp. Renewable Energy Systems (802)-483-2564 www.Foxfire-Energy.com NABCEP #092907-44 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 25138 bytes Desc: not available URL: From frenergy at psln.com Fri Mar 27 10:26:34 2015 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 07:26:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs Roof Mount for Shedding snow References: <20150327051859.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.627f7a3f02.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <1679A3C5A99146339E479D223C0EAF58@D8XG8YH1> Hey Dan, Of course we need to discuss the surroundings of any particular roof...valleys, vents, type of top-down clamps, are the PVs at, below or slightly above the ridge of the roof, etc. I assume we're talking about a metal roof? Some roofs see more warmth than others from the structure to which they are mounted. If its a comp roof, all bets are off. Bill Feather River Solar Electric ----- Original Message ----- From: dan at foxfire-energy.com To: RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 5:18 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs Roof Mount for Shedding snow Hi Guys, I have a customer who seems convinced that tilt up racking sheds snow better than conventional roof mounted arrays (irregardless of angle or panel manufacturer). Anyone else find this is true? Thanks db Dan Brown Foxfire Energy Corp. Renewable Energy Systems (802)-483-2564 www.Foxfire-Energy.com NABCEP #092907-44 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sigimg0 Type: image/png Size: 25138 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Fri Mar 27 11:15:23 2015 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 10:15:23 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ITC Message-ID: I have been told by a client who was told by his tax advisor that the 30% tax credit does not apply to self employment tax. Can anyone confirm or deny this assertion? -- Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installer Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at independentpowerllc.com Fri Mar 27 11:25:28 2015 From: dave at independentpowerllc.com (Dave) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 11:25:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ITC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005001d068a2$41ceffe0$c56cffa0$@com> Sounds like BS. Earned income is earned income. I am self employed and have taken the 30% ITC on solar for my own home. David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-888-7194 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kristopher Schmid Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 11:15 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] ITC I have been told by a client who was told by his tax advisor that the 30% tax credit does not apply to self employment tax. Can anyone confirm or deny this assertion? -- Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installer Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Fri Mar 27 11:33:02 2015 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 10:33:02 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ITC In-Reply-To: <005001d068a2$41ceffe0$c56cffa0$@com> References: <005001d068a2$41ceffe0$c56cffa0$@com> Message-ID: I just looked over my 1040 and indeed the credit is subtracted BEFORE the self employment tax is added in. At first blush, it appears to be the case. If you have enough 1099 income, the tax credit would apply to taxes paid on that income...i think? On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 10:25 AM, Dave wrote: > Sounds like BS. Earned income is earned income. I am self employed and > have taken the 30% ITC on solar for my own home. > > > > David Palumbo > > Independent Power LLC > > 462 Solar Way Drive > > Hyde Park, VT 05655 > > 802-888-7194 > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Kristopher Schmid > *Sent:* Friday, March 27, 2015 11:15 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] ITC > > > > I have been told by a client who was told by his tax advisor that the 30% > tax credit does not apply to self employment tax. Can anyone confirm or > deny this assertion? > > > -- > > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 864 Clam Falls Trail > Frederic, WI 54837 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installer Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at independentpowerllc.com Fri Mar 27 11:41:58 2015 From: dave at independentpowerllc.com (Dave) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 11:41:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ITC In-Reply-To: References: <005001d068a2$41ceffe0$c56cffa0$@com> Message-ID: <005f01d068a4$8fcd0e10$af672a30$@com> That makes sense now. The ITC comes off the income. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kristopher Schmid Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 11:33 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] ITC I just looked over my 1040 and indeed the credit is subtracted BEFORE the self employment tax is added in. At first blush, it appears to be the case. If you have enough 1099 income, the tax credit would apply to taxes paid on that income...i think? On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 10:25 AM, Dave wrote: Sounds like BS. Earned income is earned income. I am self employed and have taken the 30% ITC on solar for my own home. David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-888-7194 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kristopher Schmid Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 11:15 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] ITC I have been told by a client who was told by his tax advisor that the 30% tax credit does not apply to self employment tax. Can anyone confirm or deny this assertion? -- Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installer Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installer Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Fri Mar 27 11:59:33 2015 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (dan at foxfire-energy.com) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 08:59:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs Roof Mount for Shedding snow Message-ID: <20150327085933.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.14beb3b506.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 25138 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sigimg0 Type: image/png Size: 25138 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rebekah.hren at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 12:10:49 2015 From: rebekah.hren at gmail.com (Rebekah Hren) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 12:10:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ITC In-Reply-To: References: <005001d068a2$41ceffe0$c56cffa0$@com> Message-ID: Yes, I agree with Kris. The tax credit is applied as a deduction to line 44 tax (on taxable income) but the self-employment tax is then added on line 56. But the same is true of all other deductions, exemptions, and credits too. And it doesn't change the fact that if someone has no taxable income they won't get the credit. I'm self-employed and have happily used the RE credit. I'm also certainly not qualified to give anyone tax advice, but I do love to do my taxes with pencil and paper every year so I can see exactly what the heck is going on instead of letting software do the crunching! Plus in NC there is no software/e-filing that can handle the state RE credit, it has to be on paper. Cheers, Rebekah ​ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at independentpowerllc.com Fri Mar 27 12:15:02 2015 From: dave at independentpowerllc.com (Dave) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 12:15:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs Roof Mount for Shedding snow In-Reply-To: <20150327085933.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.14beb3b506.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> References: <20150327085933.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.14beb3b506.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <008701d068a9$2ea4fa30$8beeee90$@com> I will back up your opinion that open back has not a lot to do with it. I have several arrays that I care for here in my off grid neighborhood and some are tilted 20 degrees off of roofs to 45 degree array angle and one is a TPM that is set at 60 degrees for winter and all of these experience severe snow cover problems unless it warms up for a significant amount of time, or the roof rake is used. As you know, building the rack far off of the roof AND minimize costs do not go together. Extra material and extra strength for wind loads. Dave From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of dan at foxfire-energy.com Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 12:00 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs Roof Mount for Shedding snow My customers neighbor has 1.1k of 110W panels on a tilt up rack set at about 45° (Some 20° from the roof). Her array pretty much stayed clear all winter with minimal futzing. My customer has a 7.2k array (Four rows of six) in portrait, mounted on unirack solar mount on an asphalt tile roof at around 45° (Off Grid), on an unheated garage. My customers panels got a thin coat of ice on the array early on that held some 12'' of snow all winter. We did set it up so the bottom two rows were on their own CC and could be cleared from the ground, but they never did totally clear. The neighbor now wants to expand her system, is willing to build a shed for the array, but wants me to elevate the array as far off the roof as possible (and minimize costs). I'm working on my diplomacey here. I suggested it might be a combination of factors that contributed to my customers array not sheding, but the neighbor insists it has something to do with the array being open backed. I offered to put it out to the group for opinions. Thanks db Dan Brown Foxfire Energy Corp. Renewable Energy Systems (802)-483-2564 www.Foxfire-Energy.com NABCEP #092907-44 -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs Roof Mount for Shedding snow From: "Dave" < dave at independentpowerllc.com> Date: Fri, March 27, 2015 10:32 am To: "'RE-wrenches'" < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> Dan, What do you mean by "tilt up racking". Would an example be a rack that adds 15 degrees to a 5/12 roof? Good idea (as long as wind load is taken care of) for cold snow country (certainly for off grid) to get the tilt angle higher which helps with snow shedding. BUT if it's super cold like this winter here in northern New England nothing helps as much as a snow rake. On a side note. I had a couple of monitored grid tied systems with second story roof top arrays that produced very little power from January through second week of March. 80% less kWh than similar first story roof top arrays where the homeowner raked off snow. It was so cold that in one period this winter that it did not get over 30 degrees F for 48 consecutive days here, with many nights at 15 to 30 below zero. February was the coldest on record (since 1886) with temps that were 15 degrees below average for the month. No snow shedding going on at all. On another type of array. My adjustable ground mount here set at 90 degrees had a great winter as I regularly saw 1,750 to 1,950W out of my Apollo CC from a 1,440W array on sunny days because of MPPT and the reflective bounce of sunlight off the snow in front of the array. I never have to touch those modules from mid November, when I tilt them to 90 degrees, until after it stops snowing significantly (mid April usually). Best, Dave David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-888-7194 From: RE-wrenches [ mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of dan at foxfire-energy.com Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 8:19 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs Roof Mount for Shedding snow Hi Guys, I have a customer who seems convinced that tilt up racking sheds snow better than conventional roof mounted arrays (irregardless of angle or panel manufacturer). Anyone else find this is true? Thanks db Dan Brown Foxfire Energy Corp. Renewable Energy Systems (802)-483-2564 www.Foxfire-Energy.com NABCEP #092907-44 _____ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 25138 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dave at independentpowerllc.com Fri Mar 27 12:36:45 2015 From: dave at independentpowerllc.com (Dave) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 12:36:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs. Roof Mount for Shedding snow In-Reply-To: <20150327085933.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.14beb3b506.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> References: <20150327085933.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.14beb3b506.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <009201d068ac$3785bec0$a6913c40$@com> BTW Dan. I have designed and installed power sheds here in the north with tilt up arrays using adjustable leg sets that allow up to 80 degree tilt angles! Pretty ugly if it's staring you in the face, but quite effective when the bottom of the array is directly over the eave of the roof. Allow 18" or so distance from roof to bottom of modules to allow the snow on the surface of the roof to be cleaned occasionally with a roof rake. Adjustable legs will allow experience to be your guide going forward on how much of a tilt is needed (and tolerated appearance wise). Of course the wind loads are severe with a design like this and must be managed. Dave From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of dan at foxfire-energy.com Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 12:00 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs Roof Mount for Shedding snow My customers neighbor has 1.1k of 110W panels on a tilt up rack set at about 45° (Some 20° from the roof). Her array pretty much stayed clear all winter with minimal futzing. My customer has a 7.2k array (Four rows of six) in portrait, mounted on unirack solar mount on an asphalt tile roof at around 45° (Off Grid), on an unheated garage. My customers panels got a thin coat of ice on the array early on that held some 12'' of snow all winter. We did set it up so the bottom two rows were on their own CC and could be cleared from the ground, but they never did totally clear. The neighbor now wants to expand her system, is willing to build a shed for the array, but wants me to elevate the array as far off the roof as possible (and minimize costs). I'm working on my diplomacey here. I suggested it might be a combination of factors that contributed to my customers array not sheding, but the neighbor insists it has something to do with the array being open backed. I offered to put it out to the group for opinions. Thanks db Dan Brown Foxfire Energy Corp. Renewable Energy Systems (802)-483-2564 www.Foxfire-Energy.com NABCEP #092907-44 -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs Roof Mount for Shedding snow From: "Dave" < dave at independentpowerllc.com> Date: Fri, March 27, 2015 10:32 am To: "'RE-wrenches'" < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> Dan, What do you mean by "tilt up racking". Would an example be a rack that adds 15 degrees to a 5/12 roof? Good idea (as long as wind load is taken care of) for cold snow country (certainly for off grid) to get the tilt angle higher which helps with snow shedding. BUT if it's super cold like this winter here in northern New England nothing helps as much as a snow rake. On a side note. I had a couple of monitored grid tied systems with second story roof top arrays that produced very little power from January through second week of March. 80% less kWh than similar first story roof top arrays where the homeowner raked off snow. It was so cold that in one period this winter that it did not get over 30 degrees F for 48 consecutive days here, with many nights at 15 to 30 below zero. February was the coldest on record (since 1886) with temps that were 15 degrees below average for the month. No snow shedding going on at all. On another type of array. My adjustable ground mount here set at 90 degrees had a great winter as I regularly saw 1,750 to 1,950W out of my Apollo CC from a 1,440W array on sunny days because of MPPT and the reflective bounce of sunlight off the snow in front of the array. I never have to touch those modules from mid November, when I tilt them to 90 degrees, until after it stops snowing significantly (mid April usually). Best, Dave David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-888-7194 From: RE-wrenches [ mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of dan at foxfire-energy.com Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 8:19 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs Roof Mount for Shedding snow Hi Guys, I have a customer who seems convinced that tilt up racking sheds snow better than conventional roof mounted arrays (irregardless of angle or panel manufacturer). Anyone else find this is true? Thanks db Dan Brown Foxfire Energy Corp. Renewable Energy Systems (802)-483-2564 www.Foxfire-Energy.com NABCEP #092907-44 _____ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 25138 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 12:43:41 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 06:43:41 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex SW 4048 inverter and Frigidaire In-Reply-To: <018101d06824$63d550e0$2b7ff2a0$@com> References: <018101d06824$63d550e0$2b7ff2a0$@com> Message-ID: Older installs done by others but I have had chargers and electronic failures caused by the modified sine wave inverters, along with some electonic noise on audio equipment. I do not have these issues with OutBack. On Mar 26, 2015 2:24 PM, "Dave" wrote: > Wrenches, > > > > Older off grid system having trouble with Frigidaire washer and dryer > needing expensive repairs every year or so when run on a Xantrex SW 4048/S > inverter manufactured in June 2005. > > > > Not one of my installs so I don't know the particulars. > > > > Homeowners are looking for advice on what would work better with this ten > year old SW. Or, should they invest in a new inverter? > > > > Thanks, > > Dave > > > > David Palumbo > > Independent Power LLC > > 462 Solar Way Drive > > Hyde Park, VT 05655 > > 802-888-7194 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Fri Mar 27 13:11:06 2015 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 12:11:06 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs. Roof Mount for Shedding snow In-Reply-To: <009201d068ac$3785bec0$a6913c40$@com> References: <20150327085933.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.14beb3b506.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> <009201d068ac$3785bec0$a6913c40$@com> Message-ID: Ignoring the effect of roofing material friction and tilt angle, i would surmise that the array being "open-backed" would reduce heat build up and actually decrease the snow shedding ability. On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 11:36 AM, Dave wrote: > BTW Dan. I have designed and installed power sheds here in the north with > tilt up arrays using adjustable leg sets that allow up to 80 degree tilt > angles! Pretty ugly if it's staring you in the face, but quite effective > when the bottom of the array is directly over the eave of the roof. Allow > 18" or so distance from roof to bottom of modules to allow the snow on the > surface of the roof to be cleaned occasionally with a roof rake. Adjustable > legs will allow experience to be your guide going forward on how much of a > tilt is needed (and tolerated appearance wise). Of course the wind loads > are severe with a design like this and must be managed. > > Dave > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *dan at foxfire-energy.com > *Sent:* Friday, March 27, 2015 12:00 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs Roof Mount for Shedding snow > > > > My customers neighbor has 1.1k of 110W panels on a tilt up rack set at > about 45° (Some 20° from the roof). Her array pretty much stayed clear all > winter with minimal futzing. My customer has a 7.2k array (Four rows of > six) in portrait, mounted on unirack solar mount on an asphalt tile roof at > around 45° (Off Grid), on an unheated garage. My customers panels got a > thin coat of ice on the array early on that held some 12'' of snow all > winter. We did set it up so the bottom two rows were on their own CC and > could be cleared from the ground, but they never did totally clear. The > neighbor now wants to expand her system, is willing to build a shed for the > array, but wants me to elevate the array as far off the roof as possible > (and minimize costs). I'm working on my diplomacey here. I suggested it > might be a combination of factors that contributed to my customers array > not sheding, but the neighbor insists it has something to do with the array > being open backed. I offered to put it out to the group for opinions. > Thanks db > > > > > > Dan Brown > Foxfire Energy Corp. > Renewable Energy Systems > (802)-483-2564 > www.Foxfire-Energy.com > NABCEP #092907-44 > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs Roof Mount for Shedding snow > From: "Dave" > Date: Fri, March 27, 2015 10:32 am > To: "'RE-wrenches'" > > Dan, > > > > What do you mean by "tilt up racking". Would an example be a rack that > adds 15 degrees to a 5/12 roof? Good idea (as long as wind load is taken > care of) for cold snow country (certainly for off grid) to get the tilt > angle higher which helps with snow shedding. BUT if it's super cold like > this winter here in northern New England nothing helps as much as a snow > rake. > > > > On a side note. I had a couple of monitored grid tied systems with second > story roof top arrays that produced very little power from January through > second week of March. 80% less kWh than similar first story roof top arrays > where the homeowner raked off snow. It was so cold that in one period this > winter that it did not get over 30 degrees F for 48 consecutive days here, > with many nights at 15 to 30 below zero. February was the coldest on record > (since 1886) with temps that were 15 degrees below average for the month. > No snow shedding going on at all. > > > > On another type of array. My adjustable ground mount here set at 90 > degrees had a great winter as I regularly saw 1,750 to 1,950W out of my > Apollo CC from a 1,440W array on sunny days because of MPPT and the > reflective bounce of sunlight off the snow in front of the array. I never > have to touch those modules from mid November, when I tilt them to 90 > degrees, until after it stops snowing significantly (mid April usually). > > > > Best, > > Dave > > > > David Palumbo > > Independent Power LLC > > 462 Solar Way Drive > > Hyde Park, VT 05655 > > 802-888-7194 > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [*mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org* > ] *On Behalf Of * > *dan at foxfire-energy.com* > *Sent:* Friday, March 27, 2015 8:19 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs Roof Mount for Shedding snow > > > > > > > > Hi Guys, I have a customer who seems convinced that tilt up racking sheds > snow better than conventional roof mounted arrays (irregardless of angle or > panel manufacturer). Anyone else find this is true? Thanks db > > > > > > > > Dan Brown > Foxfire Energy Corp. > Renewable Energy Systems > (802)-483-2564 > *www.Foxfire-Energy.com* > NABCEP #092907-44 > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: *RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org* > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > *http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org* > > > List-Archive: > *http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html* > > > List rules & etiquette: > *www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm* > > > Check out or update participant bios: > *www.members.re-wrenches.org* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installer Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 25138 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Mar 27 13:16:04 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 11:16:04 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex SW 4048 inverter and Frigidaire In-Reply-To: <021001d06895$c0ed3010$42c79030$@com> References: <018101d06824$63d550e0$2b7ff2a0$@com> <7AACF8B4060045E6A914FE779165682A@D8XG8YH1> <5514DCED.2030207@sindelarsolar.com> <5B09F73A-93E9-414A-9E66-A02225173AF7@swnl.net> <021001d06895$c0ed3010$42c79030$@com> Message-ID: <55159054.1040607@solarray.com> Also, the Frigidaire washer is really delicate; I had one cooking controls every year as described, and it was On Grid. The solution there was to put it on an Outback backup power supply, as the grid was often out of voltage specs. Another thing I saw once with the SW inverters is they can partially fail and put out very weird wave forms and voltages. The onboard meter claims 120 vac, but independent true RMS metering was showing 144 vac. Lights were working, etc. but odd things were happening. We had the inverters repaired and it was attributed to lightning damage on the control board. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 3/27/2015 7:55 AM, Dave wrote: > > Tump, Allan, Bill & Jay; > > Good advice as always. I spoke with homeowner this morning and he says > that it has been the control boards on the Frigidaire's that have > failed on the SW4048. He did get advice a couple of yrs ago to add a > capacitor and that did not help. Inverter is not having any other > problems that he knows of, as of yet. He will decide between changing > the inverter or changing his washer & dryer. > > Thank you, > > Dave > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On Behalf Of *Tump > *Sent:* Friday, March 27, 2015 5:52 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex SW 4048 inverter and Frigidaire > > As for the older SWs we installed the cap on the output side, that > being said I have seen GFIC outlets causing problems but I have not > seen these issues w/ my SMA SI. Sounds to me that; being the > professional you are, suggesting the replacement of the older SW with > something that may be less frustrating ( new inverters and their firm > ware upgrades, less frustrating yeah right!?) better performance and > eliminating costly washer repairs. If I were to try and rectify the > issue, then I will usual start w/ the removal of the gfic, cap on the > ac output, (we would just installed it on the questionable load's > circuit,0 OR offer a credit for the old SW and try to sell them the > SMA SI 6K inverter and then work your way down to their budget. > > On Mar 27, 2015, at 12:30 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > > > > Dave, > This was a Wrenches discussion topic, somewhere between 2001 and > 2005.There was a fundamental incompatibility between the SW series and > the electronics of certain new model washers. The early Maytag > Neptunes and front-loading, electronically-controlled Frigidaires had > issues with the mod-sine waveform of the SW series. I looked in my > archives but have nothing saved about that. You might find the > original thread in the online archives. If the "expensive controls" > include control boards or related, this could be an ongoing issue with > this combination. > > We only had one experience with the issue, and it doesn't offer a > useful solution. A Y2K installation with dual SW55548s wouldn't run a > Frigidaire front-load washer. Adding a large power capacitor across > the input (per Wrenches and possibly Xantrex tech support advice) > didn't solve it; switching the washer circuit to the other inverter > did. We never did figure that one out. > > Just yesterday there was a thread here on "charging multiple battery > banks" dual systems, 24 and 48V, sharing a switched array. The 24V was > a SW4024. Many of us still care for systems based on that series, and > have good respect for it, but as they get older and support gets > tougher, the energy seems to be shifting toward replacement. > Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > On 3/26/2015 8:29 PM, frenergy wrote: > > Dave, > > Do you know what it is that's failing?...electronics or > motor? Is it the same in both? Have these failures been > happening since the 4048 was fired up or more recently? Is there > a lot of generator run time? > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:*Dave > > *To:*'RE-wrenches' > > *Sent:*Thursday, March 26, 2015 5:24 PM > > *Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex SW 4048 inverter and > Frigidaire > > Wrenches, > > Older off grid system having trouble with Frigidaire washer > and dryer needing expensive repairs every year or so when run > on a Xantrex SW 4048/S inverter manufactured in June 2005. > > Not one of my installs so I don't know the particulars. > > Homeowners are looking for advice on what would work better > with this ten year old SW. Or, should they invest in a new > inverter? > > Thanks, > > Dave > > David Palumbo > > Independent Power LLC > > 462 Solar Way Drive > > Hyde Park, VT 05655 > > 802-888-7194 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > *Tump at swnl.net > **www.SWNL.net* > > > Solarwinds Northernlights// > > */ Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California/**/ > /**/ 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 /* > > *//**/Blair "TUMP" May/* > > */ ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > /**/_ NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"_/**/_ > _/**/ > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > /**/_ Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"_/* > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Fri Mar 27 13:24:39 2015 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 10:24:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs. Roof Mount for Shedding snow In-Reply-To: References: <20150327085933.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.14beb3b506.wbe@email14.secur eserver.net> <009201d068ac$3785bec0$a6913c40$@com> Message-ID: <1427477079.330930379@webmail.finestplanet.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 25138 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 13:25:17 2015 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 11:25:17 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs Roof Mount for Shedding snow In-Reply-To: <008701d068a9$2ea4fa30$8beeee90$@com> References: <20150327085933.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.14beb3b506.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> <008701d068a9$2ea4fa30$8beeee90$@com> Message-ID: Another thing that makes a big difference here in Colorado is to use dark colored frames and cells as opposed to silver frames and lighter colored cells. We get a lot of cold but clear days and dark color makes a huge difference in how quickly shedding will occur. This same phenomenon will work against you in the summer but for off-grid our design day is mid-winter typically. We prefer pole mounts where snow can be broomed off and tilts optimized throughout the winter. Cheers On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 10:15 AM, Dave wrote: > I will back up your opinion that open back has not a lot to do with it. I > have several arrays that I care for here in my off grid neighborhood and > some are tilted 20 degrees off of roofs to 45 degree array angle and one is > a TPM that is set at 60 degrees for winter and all of these experience > severe snow cover problems unless it warms up for a significant amount of > time, or the roof rake is used. > > > > As you know, building the rack far off of the roof AND minimize costs do > not go together. Extra material and extra strength for wind loads. > > > > Dave > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *dan at foxfire-energy.com > *Sent:* Friday, March 27, 2015 12:00 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs Roof Mount for Shedding snow > > > > My customers neighbor has 1.1k of 110W panels on a tilt up rack set at > about 45° (Some 20° from the roof). Her array pretty much stayed clear all > winter with minimal futzing. My customer has a 7.2k array (Four rows of > six) in portrait, mounted on unirack solar mount on an asphalt tile roof at > around 45° (Off Grid), on an unheated garage. My customers panels got a > thin coat of ice on the array early on that held some 12'' of snow all > winter. We did set it up so the bottom two rows were on their own CC and > could be cleared from the ground, but they never did totally clear. The > neighbor now wants to expand her system, is willing to build a shed for the > array, but wants me to elevate the array as far off the roof as possible > (and minimize costs). I'm working on my diplomacey here. I suggested it > might be a combination of factors that contributed to my customers array > not sheding, but the neighbor insists it has something to do with the array > being open backed. I offered to put it out to the group for opinions. > Thanks db > > > > > > Dan Brown > Foxfire Energy Corp. > Renewable Energy Systems > (802)-483-2564 > www.Foxfire-Energy.com > NABCEP #092907-44 > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs Roof Mount for Shedding snow > From: "Dave" > Date: Fri, March 27, 2015 10:32 am > To: "'RE-wrenches'" > > Dan, > > > > What do you mean by "tilt up racking". Would an example be a rack that > adds 15 degrees to a 5/12 roof? Good idea (as long as wind load is taken > care of) for cold snow country (certainly for off grid) to get the tilt > angle higher which helps with snow shedding. BUT if it's super cold like > this winter here in northern New England nothing helps as much as a snow > rake. > > > > On a side note. I had a couple of monitored grid tied systems with second > story roof top arrays that produced very little power from January through > second week of March. 80% less kWh than similar first story roof top arrays > where the homeowner raked off snow. It was so cold that in one period this > winter that it did not get over 30 degrees F for 48 consecutive days here, > with many nights at 15 to 30 below zero. February was the coldest on record > (since 1886) with temps that were 15 degrees below average for the month. > No snow shedding going on at all. > > > > On another type of array. My adjustable ground mount here set at 90 > degrees had a great winter as I regularly saw 1,750 to 1,950W out of my > Apollo CC from a 1,440W array on sunny days because of MPPT and the > reflective bounce of sunlight off the snow in front of the array. I never > have to touch those modules from mid November, when I tilt them to 90 > degrees, until after it stops snowing significantly (mid April usually). > > > > Best, > > Dave > > > > David Palumbo > > Independent Power LLC > > 462 Solar Way Drive > > Hyde Park, VT 05655 > > 802-888-7194 > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [*mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org* > ] *On Behalf Of * > *dan at foxfire-energy.com* > *Sent:* Friday, March 27, 2015 8:19 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs Roof Mount for Shedding snow > > > > > > > > Hi Guys, I have a customer who seems convinced that tilt up racking sheds > snow better than conventional roof mounted arrays (irregardless of angle or > panel manufacturer). Anyone else find this is true? Thanks db > > > > > > > > Dan Brown > Foxfire Energy Corp. > Renewable Energy Systems > (802)-483-2564 > *www.Foxfire-Energy.com* > NABCEP #092907-44 > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: *RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org* > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > *http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org* > > > List-Archive: > *http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html* > > > List rules & etiquette: > *www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm* > > > Check out or update participant bios: > *www.members.re-wrenches.org* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 25138 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Mar 27 13:27:03 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 11:27:03 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs. Roof Mount for Shedding snow In-Reply-To: References: <20150327085933.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.14beb3b506.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> <009201d068ac$3785bec0$a6913c40$@com> Message-ID: <551592E7.3070704@solarray.com> This has been an issue on some of our systems, but strangely not most of them. I have not figured out a correlation yet. We have dozens of pole mount and roof systems that shed snow as soon as the sun comes out, and then some that ice up and are a real mess all winter. The only difference I seem to see is wind speed. Has anyone ever tried insulating the backs of the modules in the winter? (of course that would be removed in the Spring) Or what about a black module backing that would pick up snow reflected light in the winter, but not in the summer? R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 3/27/2015 11:11 AM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: > Ignoring the effect of roofing material friction and tilt angle, i > would surmise that the array being "open-backed" would reduce heat > build up and actually decrease the snow shedding ability. > > On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 11:36 AM, Dave > wrote: > > BTW Dan. I have designed and installed power sheds here in the > north with tilt up arrays using adjustable leg sets that allow up > to 80 degree tilt angles! Pretty ugly if it's staring you in the > face, but quite effective when the bottom of the array is directly > over the eave of the roof. Allow 18" or so distance from roof to > bottom of modules to allow the snow on the surface of the roof to > be cleaned occasionally with a roof rake. Adjustable legs will > allow experience to be your guide going forward on how much of a > tilt is needed (and tolerated appearance wise). Of course the wind > loads are severe with a design like this and must be managed. > > Dave > > *From:*RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of > *dan at foxfire-energy.com > *Sent:* Friday, March 27, 2015 12:00 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs Roof Mount for > Shedding snow > > My customers neighbor has 1.1k of 110W panels on a tilt up rack > set at about 45° (Some 20° from the roof). Her array pretty much > stayed clear all winter with minimal futzing. My customer has a > 7.2k array (Four rows of six) in portrait, mounted on unirack > solar mount on an asphalt tile roof at around 45° (Off Grid), on > an unheated garage. My customers panels got a thin coat of ice on > the array early on that held some 12'' of snow all winter. We did > set it up so the bottom two rows were on their own CC and could be > cleared from the ground, but they never did totally clear. The > neighbor now wants to expand her system, is willing to build a > shed for the array, but wants me to elevate the array as far off > the roof as possible (and minimize costs). I'm working on my > diplomacey here. I suggested it might be a combination of factors > that contributed to my customers array not sheding, but the > neighbor insists it has something to do with the array being open > backed. I offered to put it out to the group for opinions. Thanks db > > > Dan Brown > Foxfire Energy Corp. > Renewable Energy Systems > (802)-483-2564 > www.Foxfire-Energy.com > NABCEP #092907-44 > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs Roof Mount for > Shedding snow > From: "Dave" > > Date: Fri, March 27, 2015 10:32 am > To: "'RE-wrenches'" > > > Dan, > > What do you mean by "tilt up racking". Would an example be a > rack that adds 15 degrees to a 5/12 roof? Good idea (as long > as wind load is taken care of) for cold snow country > (certainly for off grid) to get the tilt angle higher which > helps with snow shedding. BUT if it's super cold like this > winter here in northern New England nothing helps as much as a > snow rake. > > On a side note. I had a couple of monitored grid tied systems > with second story roof top arrays that produced very little > power from January through second week of March. 80% less kWh > than similar first story roof top arrays where the homeowner > raked off snow. It was so cold that in one period this winter > that it did not get over 30 degrees F for 48 consecutive days > here, with many nights at 15 to 30 below zero. February was > the coldest on record (since 1886) with temps that were 15 > degrees below average for the month. No snow shedding going on > at all. > > On another type of array. My adjustable ground mount here set > at 90 degrees had a great winter as I regularly saw 1,750 to > 1,950W out of my Apollo CC from a 1,440W array on sunny days > because of MPPT and the reflective bounce of sunlight off the > snow in front of the array. I never have to touch those > modules from mid November, when I tilt them to 90 degrees, > until after it stops snowing significantly (mid April usually). > > Best, > > Dave > > David Palumbo > > Independent Power LLC > > 462 Solar Way Drive > > Hyde Park, VT 05655 > > 802-888-7194 > > *From:*RE-wrenches > [_mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org_] *On > Behalf Of *_dan at foxfire-energy.com_ > > *Sent:* Friday, March 27, 2015 8:19 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs Roof Mount for > Shedding snow > > Hi Guys, I have a customer who seems convinced that tilt up > racking sheds snow better than conventional roof mounted > arrays (irregardless of angle or panel manufacturer). Anyone > else find this is true? Thanks db > > Dan Brown > Foxfire Energy Corp. > Renewable Energy Systems > (802)-483-2564 > _www.Foxfire-Energy.com_ > NABCEP #092907-44 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: _RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org_ > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > _http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org_ > > List-Archive: > _http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html_ > > List rules & etiquette: > _www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm_ > > > Check out or update participant bios: > _www.members.re-wrenches.org_ > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > -- > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 864 Clam Falls Trail > Frederic, WI 54837 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 25138 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dave at independentpowerllc.com Fri Mar 27 13:32:56 2015 From: dave at independentpowerllc.com (Dave) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 13:32:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs Roof Mount for Shedding snow In-Reply-To: References: <20150327085933.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.14beb3b506.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> <008701d068a9$2ea4fa30$8beeee90$@com> Message-ID: <00e201d068b4$1090c730$31b25590$@com> Black on black modules help a little but not really enough here where it can be really cold for many weeks at a time. I have a black on black array (55 degree tilt on a 6/12 roof) on a rental house that needs to be roof raked after every snow, OR, run the generator. I much prefer to use the roof rake. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mac Lewis Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 1:25 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs Roof Mount for Shedding snow Another thing that makes a big difference here in Colorado is to use dark colored frames and cells as opposed to silver frames and lighter colored cells. We get a lot of cold but clear days and dark color makes a huge difference in how quickly shedding will occur. This same phenomenon will work against you in the summer but for off-grid our design day is mid-winter typically. We prefer pole mounts where snow can be broomed off and tilts optimized throughout the winter. Cheers On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 10:15 AM, Dave wrote: I will back up your opinion that open back has not a lot to do with it. I have several arrays that I care for here in my off grid neighborhood and some are tilted 20 degrees off of roofs to 45 degree array angle and one is a TPM that is set at 60 degrees for winter and all of these experience severe snow cover problems unless it warms up for a significant amount of time, or the roof rake is used. As you know, building the rack far off of the roof AND minimize costs do not go together. Extra material and extra strength for wind loads. Dave From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of dan at foxfire-energy.com Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 12:00 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs Roof Mount for Shedding snow My customers neighbor has 1.1k of 110W panels on a tilt up rack set at about 45° (Some 20° from the roof). Her array pretty much stayed clear all winter with minimal futzing. My customer has a 7.2k array (Four rows of six) in portrait, mounted on unirack solar mount on an asphalt tile roof at around 45° (Off Grid), on an unheated garage. My customers panels got a thin coat of ice on the array early on that held some 12'' of snow all winter. We did set it up so the bottom two rows were on their own CC and could be cleared from the ground, but they never did totally clear. The neighbor now wants to expand her system, is willing to build a shed for the array, but wants me to elevate the array as far off the roof as possible (and minimize costs). I'm working on my diplomacey here. I suggested it might be a combination of factors that contributed to my customers array not sheding, but the neighbor insists it has something to do with the array being open backed. I offered to put it out to the group for opinions. Thanks db Dan Brown Foxfire Energy Corp. Renewable Energy Systems (802)-483-2564 www.Foxfire-Energy.com NABCEP #092907-44 -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs Roof Mount for Shedding snow From: "Dave" < dave at independentpowerllc.com> Date: Fri, March 27, 2015 10:32 am To: "'RE-wrenches'" < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> Dan, What do you mean by "tilt up racking". Would an example be a rack that adds 15 degrees to a 5/12 roof? Good idea (as long as wind load is taken care of) for cold snow country (certainly for off grid) to get the tilt angle higher which helps with snow shedding. BUT if it's super cold like this winter here in northern New England nothing helps as much as a snow rake. On a side note. I had a couple of monitored grid tied systems with second story roof top arrays that produced very little power from January through second week of March. 80% less kWh than similar first story roof top arrays where the homeowner raked off snow. It was so cold that in one period this winter that it did not get over 30 degrees F for 48 consecutive days here, with many nights at 15 to 30 below zero. February was the coldest on record (since 1886) with temps that were 15 degrees below average for the month. No snow shedding going on at all. On another type of array. My adjustable ground mount here set at 90 degrees had a great winter as I regularly saw 1,750 to 1,950W out of my Apollo CC from a 1,440W array on sunny days because of MPPT and the reflective bounce of sunlight off the snow in front of the array. I never have to touch those modules from mid November, when I tilt them to 90 degrees, until after it stops snowing significantly (mid April usually). Best, Dave David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-888-7194 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of dan at foxfire-energy.com Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 8:19 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs Roof Mount for Shedding snow Hi Guys, I have a customer who seems convinced that tilt up racking sheds snow better than conventional roof mounted arrays (irregardless of angle or panel manufacturer). Anyone else find this is true? Thanks db Dan Brown Foxfire Energy Corp. Renewable Energy Systems (802)-483-2564 www.Foxfire-Energy.com NABCEP #092907-44 _____ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 25138 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gary at windstreamsolar.com Fri Mar 27 15:23:07 2015 From: gary at windstreamsolar.com (Gary Higbee) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 12:23:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider XW 48 volt Message-ID: <33208678-DACC-4F14-A23E-76654B8F6C64@windstreamsolar.com> Hi all, I'd appreciate hearing about your experience with the Conext 5548 or 6848 inverter systems. I've installed quite a few Outback systems and lived with one but am considering using XW 5548's for a couple off-grid installs. At the same time I have no experience with the Schneider systems. One of the installs will be a bit over 10Kw and we're considering two 5548's and a few high voltage charge controllers for the ground mount array. This customer requires 25 kWh/day so we're looking at a substantial battery bank, gen, so forth. What is your experience with the 48 volt XW's as off-grid systems (install, reliability, support, repairs, features you like and don't like)? It will be either this or Outback. Thank you! Gary From chris at solarwindworks.com Fri Mar 27 14:20:39 2015 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 11:20:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 48 VDC to 24 VDC Relay In-Reply-To: References: <031301d067fb$ca2eeeb0$5e8ccc10$@solarwindworks.com> Message-ID: <026301d068ba$bb5f38d0$321daa70$@solarwindworks.com> HI Jerry, We do have the damper motor running on the Samlex 48V to 24V converter, now we need a relay to switch the motor when the divert load switches on/off. Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP Certified PV Installer Office 530-582-4503 Cell 530-448-9692 Fax 530-582-4603 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Shafer Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2015 2:44 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 48 VDC to 24 VDC Relay There is a liniar converter avalible they convert either from 48 to 24 and the other way too. I am away till next week so i cant the brand. Jerry On Mar 26, 2015 10:47 AM, "Chris Worcester" wrote: Hello fellow wrenches; We are attempting to control a small 24 VDC motorized damper motor on a nominal 48 VDC off grid system. The damper is next to an Air Heater divert load in a wall that is controlled by a MorningStar TS60 to take the top off the 48 V battery bank at 56.8 volts. We have a 48 VDC Bergey XL.1 on the system now. So I really can use some advice on finding a relay that will allow power to the damper motor, when the TS60 is on. We are powering the damper motor with a 48V to 24 V DC to DC converter, that is working well, we have an on/off switch in the circuit, for a manual over ride. Thanks in advance for any and all help! Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP Certified PV Installer Office 530-582-4503 Cell 530-448-9692 Fax 530-582-4603 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Fri Mar 27 15:45:56 2015 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jefferson Jarvis) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 14:45:56 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 48 VDC to 24 VDC Relay In-Reply-To: <026301d068ba$bb5f38d0$321daa70$@solarwindworks.com> References: <031301d067fb$ca2eeeb0$5e8ccc10$@solarwindworks.com> <026301d068ba$bb5f38d0$321daa70$@solarwindworks.com> Message-ID: <5515B374.5040702@aprsworld.com> On 3/27/2015 1:20 PM, Chris Worcester wrote: > We do have the damper motor running on the Samlex 48V to 24V converter, > now we need a relay to switch the motor when the divert load switches > on/off. The divert controller is going to be PWM'ing whatever is connected to. A relay won't be happy being driven by that. You need a voltage controlled switch that will come on at the same time as your dump controller should. Outback and Midnite charger controllers will have an AUX contact that can do that. Morningstar has their Relay Driver. And there are a host of other outfits that make voltage controlled switches. Or you could control the actuator based on temperature, like they usually are. Good luck, -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 www.aprsworld.com From Gary at IcarusSolarServices.com Fri Mar 27 16:04:33 2015 From: Gary at IcarusSolarServices.com (Gary Willett) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 15:04:33 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ITC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5515B7D1.4020100@IcarusSolarServices.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From taiyoko at positiveenergysolar.com Fri Mar 27 16:46:29 2015 From: taiyoko at positiveenergysolar.com (Taiyoko Sadewic) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 14:46:29 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ITC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kris, Yes that is correct. If you look on the tax form 1040 itself, the logic proves that. Thanks On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 9:15 AM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: > I have been told by a client who was told by his tax advisor that the 30% > tax credit does not apply to self employment tax. Can anyone confirm or > deny this assertion? > > -- > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 864 Clam Falls Trail > Frederic, WI 54837 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- *Taiyoko Sadewic* *Chief Financial OfficerChief Technical Officer* *POSITIVE ENERGY SOLAR* NABCEP Certified PV Installer NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Taiyoko at PositiveEnergySolar.com www.PositiveEnergySolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Mar 27 17:27:35 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 17:27:35 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ITC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Self employment tax is not income tax. It goes toward social security and medicare. Nobody can take the ITC against these taxes. No big deal... http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/Self-Employment-Tax-Social-Security-and-Medicare-Taxes Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 11:15 AM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: > I have been told by a client who was told by his tax advisor that the 30% > tax credit does not apply to self employment tax. Can anyone confirm or > deny this assertion? > > -- > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 864 Clam Falls Trail > Frederic, WI 54837 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Fri Mar 27 19:34:43 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Larry) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 16:34:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ITC In-Reply-To: <5515B7D1.4020100@IcarusSolarServices.com> References: <5515B7D1.4020100@IcarusSolarServices.com> Message-ID: <5515E913.8070309@starlightsolar.com> On 3/27/15 1:04 PM, Gary Willett wrote: > ....but if a business owned PV system is involved, and does not > involve a personal 1040 tax return /_or a residential PV system, the > 30% residential energy credit does not apply_/ - the Form 3468 > investment tax credit is used. > > Regards, > > Gary Willett > Icarus Solar > Irving TX Hi Gary, The PV system does not have to be a residential system to qualify. The tax credit applies to any "dwelling unit" owned by the individual including a recreational vehicle. We have had hundreds of customers take the credit over the last few years for systems installed on RV's. Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems www.starlightsolar.com (928) 342-9103 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Fri Mar 27 19:41:29 2015 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 16:41:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ITC - updated question on post-2016 In-Reply-To: <5515E913.8070309@starlightsolar.com> References: <5515B7D1.4020100@IcarusSolarServices.com> <5515E913.8070309@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <2386e3beb2ec8f2de213a35cb4b6c511@mail.gmail.com> Hi Wrenches, Since we’re on the topic of the ITC, I have another question someone might be able to help with. Assuming that a system is placed into service prior to the end of 2016, it should qualify for the 30% tax credit. Some people do not have enough tax liability to take the whole credit in the same year of the installation and I believe they typically have 5 years to take the credit. Do this apply to post-2016 as well? In other words, if a system is placed into service in 2016 but the owner doesn’t have a tax appetite until sometime after 2016, can they still take the tax credit (within 5 years)? I’m assuming the answer is yes, but thought some of you might be more versed in the tax code. Thanks, August -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Fri Mar 27 20:07:41 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Larry) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 17:07:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ITC - updated question on post-2016 In-Reply-To: <2386e3beb2ec8f2de213a35cb4b6c511@mail.gmail.com> References: <5515B7D1.4020100@IcarusSolarServices.com> <5515E913.8070309@starlightsolar.com> <2386e3beb2ec8f2de213a35cb4b6c511@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5515F0CD.3040008@starlightsolar.com> The tax credit can be carried back one year and forward 20 years. Unless the credit is extended, it applies to systems placed in service on any dwelling unit by Dec. 31, 2016. Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On 3/27/15 4:41 PM, August Goers wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, > > Since we’re on the topic of the ITC, I have another question someone > might be able to help with. Assuming that a system is placed into > service prior to the end of 2016, it should qualify for the 30% tax > credit. Some people do not have enough tax liability to take the whole > credit in the same year of the installation and I believe they > typically have 5 years to take the credit. Do this apply to post-2016 > as well? In other words, if a system is placed into service in 2016 > but the owner doesn’t have a tax appetite until sometime after 2016, > can they still take the tax credit (within 5 years)? I’m assuming the > answer is yes, but thought some of you might be more versed in the tax > code. > > Thanks, > > August > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 01:42:30 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 19:42:30 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider XW 48 volt In-Reply-To: <33208678-DACC-4F14-A23E-76654B8F6C64@windstreamsolar.com> References: <33208678-DACC-4F14-A23E-76654B8F6C64@windstreamsolar.com> Message-ID: Wrenches i have service contracts with both product lines thst customer has, the XW has had some programming issues, i use Radians and for years the FX's. It seems that i have had more calls on XW machines even i have a smaller customer base with that product. I like and perferr the Outback product but its what you want to take care of for ever Jerry On Mar 27, 2015 9:23 AM, "Gary Higbee" wrote: > Hi all, I'd appreciate hearing about your experience with the Conext 5548 > or 6848 inverter systems. I've installed quite a few Outback systems and > lived with one but am considering using XW 5548's for a couple off-grid > installs. At the same time I have no experience with the Schneider systems. > One of the installs will be a bit over 10Kw and we're considering two > 5548's and a few high voltage charge controllers for the ground mount > array. This customer requires 25 kWh/day so we're looking at a substantial > battery bank, gen, so forth. > > What is your experience with the 48 volt XW's as off-grid systems > (install, reliability, support, repairs, features you like and don't like)? > It will be either this or Outback. > > Thank you! > > Gary > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 02:03:15 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 20:03:15 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs. Roof Mount for Shedding snow In-Reply-To: <009201d068ac$3785bec0$a6913c40$@com> References: <20150327085933.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.14beb3b506.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> <009201d068ac$3785bec0$a6913c40$@com> Message-ID: I designed an array with a tempered glass sheet over the module gilted at 75 degrees, it was vented to prevent the effect of green housing. The glass area was alot larger then the modules but snow always shed off the glass and the modules were facing the sun. I designed it to be lifted but the customer never did never needed to. Note the glass sheets were 4 feet by 10 feet. I expected a hit on performance but has not been an issue. In part that we dont loose durng the sunny days between storms. Jerry On Mar 27, 2015 6:36 AM, "Dave" wrote: > BTW Dan. I have designed and installed power sheds here in the north with > tilt up arrays using adjustable leg sets that allow up to 80 degree tilt > angles! Pretty ugly if it's staring you in the face, but quite effective > when the bottom of the array is directly over the eave of the roof. Allow > 18" or so distance from roof to bottom of modules to allow the snow on the > surface of the roof to be cleaned occasionally with a roof rake. Adjustable > legs will allow experience to be your guide going forward on how much of a > tilt is needed (and tolerated appearance wise). Of course the wind loads > are severe with a design like this and must be managed. > > Dave > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *dan at foxfire-energy.com > *Sent:* Friday, March 27, 2015 12:00 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs Roof Mount for Shedding snow > > > > My customers neighbor has 1.1k of 110W panels on a tilt up rack set at > about 45° (Some 20° from the roof). Her array pretty much stayed clear all > winter with minimal futzing. My customer has a 7.2k array (Four rows of > six) in portrait, mounted on unirack solar mount on an asphalt tile roof at > around 45° (Off Grid), on an unheated garage. My customers panels got a > thin coat of ice on the array early on that held some 12'' of snow all > winter. We did set it up so the bottom two rows were on their own CC and > could be cleared from the ground, but they never did totally clear. The > neighbor now wants to expand her system, is willing to build a shed for the > array, but wants me to elevate the array as far off the roof as possible > (and minimize costs). I'm working on my diplomacey here. I suggested it > might be a combination of factors that contributed to my customers array > not sheding, but the neighbor insists it has something to do with the array > being open backed. I offered to put it out to the group for opinions. > Thanks db > > > > > > Dan Brown > Foxfire Energy Corp. > Renewable Energy Systems > (802)-483-2564 > www.Foxfire-Energy.com > NABCEP #092907-44 > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs Roof Mount for Shedding snow > From: "Dave" > Date: Fri, March 27, 2015 10:32 am > To: "'RE-wrenches'" > > Dan, > > > > What do you mean by "tilt up racking". Would an example be a rack that > adds 15 degrees to a 5/12 roof? Good idea (as long as wind load is taken > care of) for cold snow country (certainly for off grid) to get the tilt > angle higher which helps with snow shedding. BUT if it's super cold like > this winter here in northern New England nothing helps as much as a snow > rake. > > > > On a side note. I had a couple of monitored grid tied systems with second > story roof top arrays that produced very little power from January through > second week of March. 80% less kWh than similar first story roof top arrays > where the homeowner raked off snow. It was so cold that in one period this > winter that it did not get over 30 degrees F for 48 consecutive days here, > with many nights at 15 to 30 below zero. February was the coldest on record > (since 1886) with temps that were 15 degrees below average for the month. > No snow shedding going on at all. > > > > On another type of array. My adjustable ground mount here set at 90 > degrees had a great winter as I regularly saw 1,750 to 1,950W out of my > Apollo CC from a 1,440W array on sunny days because of MPPT and the > reflective bounce of sunlight off the snow in front of the array. I never > have to touch those modules from mid November, when I tilt them to 90 > degrees, until after it stops snowing significantly (mid April usually). > > > > Best, > > Dave > > > > David Palumbo > > Independent Power LLC > > 462 Solar Way Drive > > Hyde Park, VT 05655 > > 802-888-7194 > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [*mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org* > ] *On Behalf Of * > *dan at foxfire-energy.com* > *Sent:* Friday, March 27, 2015 8:19 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs Roof Mount for Shedding snow > > > > > > > > Hi Guys, I have a customer who seems convinced that tilt up racking sheds > snow better than conventional roof mounted arrays (irregardless of angle or > panel manufacturer). Anyone else find this is true? Thanks db > > > > > > > > Dan Brown > Foxfire Energy Corp. > Renewable Energy Systems > (802)-483-2564 > *www.Foxfire-Energy.com* > NABCEP #092907-44 > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: *RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org* > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > *http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org* > > > List-Archive: > *http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html* > > > List rules & etiquette: > *www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm* > > > Check out or update participant bios: > *www.members.re-wrenches.org* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 25138 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dana at solarwork.com Sat Mar 28 09:17:13 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (dana at solarwork.com) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2015 07:17:13 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs Roof Mount for Shedding snow In-Reply-To: <20150327085933.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.14beb3b506.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> References: <20150327085933.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.14beb3b506.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <0EE16EE6-1F3E-4660-8AE6-2FB136C97C43@solarwork.com> I would be curious to hear if there's a difference in how different manufacturers modules hold snow and ice, Has anyone seen particular module manufacturers that tend to hold more snow ? this would be really good information for those of us in snow country Dana Orzel 208.721.7003 Encourage Free Thinking Self Responsible Free Range Children On Mar 27, 2015, at 9:59 AM, wrote: My customers neighbor has 1.1k of 110W panels on a tilt up rack set at about 45° (Some 20° from the roof). Her array pretty much stayed clear all winter with minimal futzing. My customer has a 7.2k array (Four rows of six) in portrait, mounted on unirack solar mount on an asphalt tile roof at around 45° (Off Grid), on an unheated garage. My customers panels got a thin coat of ice on the array early on that held some 12'' of snow all winter. We did set it up so the bottom two rows were on their own CC and could be cleared from the ground, but they never did totally clear. The neighbor now wants to expand her system, is willing to build a shed for the array, but wants me to elevate the array as far off the roof as possible (and minimize costs). I'm working on my diplomacey here. I suggested it might be a combination of factors that contributed to my customers array not sheding, but the neighbor insists it has something to do with the array being open backed. I offered to put it out to the group for opinions. Thanks db Dan Brown Foxfire Energy Corp. Renewable Energy Systems (802)-483-2564 www.Foxfire-Energy.com NABCEP #092907-44 -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs Roof Mount for Shedding snow From: "Dave" Date: Fri, March 27, 2015 10:32 am To: "'RE-wrenches'" Dan, What do you mean by "tilt up racking". Would an example be a rack that adds 15 degrees to a 5/12 roof? Good idea (as long as wind load is taken care of) for cold snow country (certainly for off grid) to get the tilt angle higher which helps with snow shedding. BUT if it's super cold like this winter here in northern New England nothing helps as much as a snow rake. On a side note. I had a couple of monitored grid tied systems with second story roof top arrays that produced very little power from January through second week of March. 80% less kWh than similar first story roof top arrays where the homeowner raked off snow. It was so cold that in one period this winter that it did not get over 30 degrees F for 48 consecutive days here, with many nights at 15 to 30 below zero. February was the coldest on record (since 1886) with temps that were 15 degrees below average for the month. No snow shedding going on at all. On another type of array. My adjustable ground mount here set at 90 degrees had a great winter as I regularly saw 1,750 to 1,950W out of my Apollo CC from a 1,440W array on sunny days because of MPPT and the reflective bounce of sunlight off the snow in front of the array. I never have to touch those modules from mid November, when I tilt them to 90 degrees, until after it stops snowing significantly (mid April usually). Best, Dave David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-888-7194 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of dan at foxfire-energy.com Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 8:19 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs Roof Mount for Shedding snow Hi Guys, I have a customer who seems convinced that tilt up racking sheds snow better than conventional roof mounted arrays (irregardless of angle or panel manufacturer). Anyone else find this is true? Thanks db Dan Brown Foxfire Energy Corp. Renewable Energy Systems (802)-483-2564 www.Foxfire-Energy.com NABCEP #092907-44 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Sat Mar 28 12:02:52 2015 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2015 11:02:52 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs Roof Mount for Shedding snow In-Reply-To: <0EE16EE6-1F3E-4660-8AE6-2FB136C97C43@solarwork.com> References: <20150327085933.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.14beb3b506.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> <0EE16EE6-1F3E-4660-8AE6-2FB136C97C43@solarwork.com> Message-ID: I am betting on the frameless glass on glass module with un-textured glass. Lumos, Trina, Silicon Energy, ... On Sat, Mar 28, 2015 at 8:17 AM, dana at solarwork.com wrote: > I would be curious to hear if there's a difference in how different > manufacturers modules hold snow and ice, > Has anyone seen particular module manufacturers that tend to hold more > snow ? > this would be really good information for those of us in snow country > > Dana Orzel 208.721.7003 > Encourage Free Thinking Self Responsible Free Range Children > > On Mar 27, 2015, at 9:59 AM, < > dan at foxfire-energy.com> wrote: > > My customers neighbor has 1.1k of 110W panels on a tilt up rack set at > about 45° (Some 20° from the roof). Her array pretty much stayed clear all > winter with minimal futzing. My customer has a 7.2k array (Four rows of > six) in portrait, mounted on unirack solar mount on an asphalt tile roof at > around 45° (Off Grid), on an unheated garage. My customers panels got a > thin coat of ice on the array early on that held some 12'' of snow all > winter. We did set it up so the bottom two rows were on their own CC and > could be cleared from the ground, but they never did totally clear. The > neighbor now wants to expand her system, is willing to build a shed for the > array, but wants me to elevate the array as far off the roof as possible > (and minimize costs). I'm working on my diplomacey here. I suggested it > might be a combination of factors that contributed to my customers array > not sheding, but the neighbor insists it has something to do with the array > being open backed. I offered to put it out to the group for opinions. > Thanks db > > > > Dan Brown > Foxfire Energy Corp. > Renewable Energy Systems > (802)-483-2564 > www.Foxfire-Energy.com > NABCEP #092907-44 > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs Roof Mount for Shedding snow > From: "Dave" > Date: Fri, March 27, 2015 10:32 am > To: "'RE-wrenches'" > > Dan, > > What do you mean by "tilt up racking". Would an example be a rack that > adds 15 degrees to a 5/12 roof? Good idea (as long as wind load is taken > care of) for cold snow country (certainly for off grid) to get the tilt > angle higher which helps with snow shedding. BUT if it's super cold like > this winter here in northern New England nothing helps as much as a snow > rake. > > On a side note. I had a couple of monitored grid tied systems with second > story roof top arrays that produced very little power from January through > second week of March. 80% less kWh than similar first story roof top arrays > where the homeowner raked off snow. It was so cold that in one period this > winter that it did not get over 30 degrees F for 48 consecutive days here, > with many nights at 15 to 30 below zero. February was the coldest on record > (since 1886) with temps that were 15 degrees below average for the month. > No snow shedding going on at all. > > On another type of array. My adjustable ground mount here set at 90 > degrees had a great winter as I regularly saw 1,750 to 1,950W out of my > Apollo CC from a 1,440W array on sunny days because of MPPT and the > reflective bounce of sunlight off the snow in front of the array. I never > have to touch those modules from mid November, when I tilt them to 90 > degrees, until after it stops snowing significantly (mid April usually). > > Best, > Dave > > David Palumbo > Independent Power LLC > 462 Solar Way Drive > Hyde Park, VT 05655 > 802-888-7194 > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of * > dan at foxfire-energy.com > *Sent:* Friday, March 27, 2015 8:19 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs Roof Mount for Shedding snow > > > > Hi Guys, I have a customer who seems convinced that tilt up racking sheds > snow better than conventional roof mounted arrays (irregardless of angle or > panel manufacturer). Anyone else find this is true? Thanks db > > > > Dan Brown > Foxfire Energy Corp. > Renewable Energy Systems > (802)-483-2564 > www.Foxfire-Energy.com > NABCEP #092907-44 > > > ------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installer Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Sat Mar 28 12:17:00 2015 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2015 09:17:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs Roof Mount for Shedding snow In-Reply-To: <0EE16EE6-1F3E-4660-8AE6-2FB136C97C43@solarwork.com> References: <20150327085933.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.14beb3b506.wbe@email14.secur eserver.net> <0EE16EE6-1F3E-4660-8AE6-2FB136C97C43@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <1427559420.40649690@webmail.finestplanet.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 399640_10150479244473864_443869878_n.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 95548 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_0104a.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 297136 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dave at independentpowerllc.com Sat Mar 28 14:27:24 2015 From: dave at independentpowerllc.com (Dave) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2015 14:27:24 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs Roof Mount for Shedding snow In-Reply-To: <0EE16EE6-1F3E-4660-8AE6-2FB136C97C43@solarwork.com> References: <20150327085933.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.14beb3b506.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> <0EE16EE6-1F3E-4660-8AE6-2FB136C97C43@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <01ec01d06984$d6aa7800$83ff6800$@com> Several years ago I think someone was talking about using Rain-X on the glass of the modules so the snow would come off easier. I never have tried this. Anyone who has? Results? David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-888-7194 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of dana at solarwork.com Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2015 9:17 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs Roof Mount for Shedding snow I would be curious to hear if there's a difference in how different manufacturers modules hold snow and ice, Has anyone seen particular module manufacturers that tend to hold more snow ? this would be really good information for those of us in snow country Dana Orzel 208.721.7003 Encourage Free Thinking Self Responsible Free Range Children On Mar 27, 2015, at 9:59 AM, wrote: My customers neighbor has 1.1k of 110W panels on a tilt up rack set at about 45° (Some 20° from the roof). Her array pretty much stayed clear all winter with minimal futzing. My customer has a 7.2k array (Four rows of six) in portrait, mounted on unirack solar mount on an asphalt tile roof at around 45° (Off Grid), on an unheated garage. My customers panels got a thin coat of ice on the array early on that held some 12'' of snow all winter. We did set it up so the bottom two rows were on their own CC and could be cleared from the ground, but they never did totally clear. The neighbor now wants to expand her system, is willing to build a shed for the array, but wants me to elevate the array as far off the roof as possible (and minimize costs). I'm working on my diplomacey here. I suggested it might be a combination of factors that contributed to my customers array not sheding, but the neighbor insists it has something to do with the array being open backed. I offered to put it out to the group for opinions. Thanks db Dan Brown Foxfire Energy Corp. Renewable Energy Systems (802)-483-2564 www.Foxfire-Energy.com NABCEP #092907-44 -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs Roof Mount for Shedding snow From: "Dave" < dave at independentpowerllc.com> Date: Fri, March 27, 2015 10:32 am To: "'RE-wrenches'" < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> Dan, What do you mean by "tilt up racking". Would an example be a rack that adds 15 degrees to a 5/12 roof? Good idea (as long as wind load is taken care of) for cold snow country (certainly for off grid) to get the tilt angle higher which helps with snow shedding. BUT if it's super cold like this winter here in northern New England nothing helps as much as a snow rake. On a side note. I had a couple of monitored grid tied systems with second story roof top arrays that produced very little power from January through second week of March. 80% less kWh than similar first story roof top arrays where the homeowner raked off snow. It was so cold that in one period this winter that it did not get over 30 degrees F for 48 consecutive days here, with many nights at 15 to 30 below zero. February was the coldest on record (since 1886) with temps that were 15 degrees below average for the month. No snow shedding going on at all. On another type of array. My adjustable ground mount here set at 90 degrees had a great winter as I regularly saw 1,750 to 1,950W out of my Apollo CC from a 1,440W array on sunny days because of MPPT and the reflective bounce of sunlight off the snow in front of the array. I never have to touch those modules from mid November, when I tilt them to 90 degrees, until after it stops snowing significantly (mid April usually). Best, Dave David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-888-7194 From: RE-wrenches [ mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of dan at foxfire-energy.com Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 8:19 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs Roof Mount for Shedding snow Hi Guys, I have a customer who seems convinced that tilt up racking sheds snow better than conventional roof mounted arrays (irregardless of angle or panel manufacturer). Anyone else find this is true? Thanks db Dan Brown Foxfire Energy Corp. Renewable Energy Systems (802)-483-2564 www.Foxfire-Energy.com NABCEP #092907-44 _____ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay at asis.com Sat Mar 28 14:08:13 2015 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2015 11:08:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs Roof Mount for Shedding snow In-Reply-To: <0EE16EE6-1F3E-4660-8AE6-2FB136C97C43@solarwork.com> References: <20150327085933.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.14beb3b506.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> <0EE16EE6-1F3E-4660-8AE6-2FB136C97C43@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <51C9A6F1-E7E5-47DB-924D-28E6A1D90734@asis.com> Textured vs smooth glass. Jay Peltz power. > On Mar 28, 2015, at 6:17 AM, "dana at solarwork.com" wrote: > > I would be curious to hear if there's a difference in how different manufacturers modules hold snow and ice, > Has anyone seen particular module manufacturers that tend to hold more snow ? > this would be really good information for those of us in snow country > > Dana Orzel 208.721.7003 > Encourage Free Thinking Self Responsible Free Range Children > > On Mar 27, 2015, at 9:59 AM, wrote: > > My customers neighbor has 1.1k of 110W panels on a tilt up rack set at about 45° (Some 20° from the roof). Her array pretty much stayed clear all winter with minimal futzing. My customer has a 7.2k array (Four rows of six) in portrait, mounted on unirack solar mount on an asphalt tile roof at around 45° (Off Grid), on an unheated garage. My customers panels got a thin coat of ice on the array early on that held some 12'' of snow all winter. We did set it up so the bottom two rows were on their own CC and could be cleared from the ground, but they never did totally clear. The neighbor now wants to expand her system, is willing to build a shed for the array, but wants me to elevate the array as far off the roof as possible (and minimize costs). I'm working on my diplomacey here. I suggested it might be a combination of factors that contributed to my customers array not sheding, but the neighbor insists it has something to do with the array being open backed. I offered to put it out to the group for opinions. Thanks db > > > > Dan Brown > Foxfire Energy Corp. > Renewable Energy Systems > (802)-483-2564 > www.Foxfire-Energy.com > NABCEP #092907-44 > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs Roof Mount for Shedding snow > From: "Dave" > Date: Fri, March 27, 2015 10:32 am > To: "'RE-wrenches'" > > Dan, > > What do you mean by "tilt up racking". Would an example be a rack that adds 15 degrees to a 5/12 roof? Good idea (as long as wind load is taken care of) for cold snow country (certainly for off grid) to get the tilt angle higher which helps with snow shedding. BUT if it's super cold like this winter here in northern New England nothing helps as much as a snow rake. > > On a side note. I had a couple of monitored grid tied systems with second story roof top arrays that produced very little power from January through second week of March. 80% less kWh than similar first story roof top arrays where the homeowner raked off snow. It was so cold that in one period this winter that it did not get over 30 degrees F for 48 consecutive days here, with many nights at 15 to 30 below zero. February was the coldest on record (since 1886) with temps that were 15 degrees below average for the month. No snow shedding going on at all. > > On another type of array. My adjustable ground mount here set at 90 degrees had a great winter as I regularly saw 1,750 to 1,950W out of my Apollo CC from a 1,440W array on sunny days because of MPPT and the reflective bounce of sunlight off the snow in front of the array. I never have to touch those modules from mid November, when I tilt them to 90 degrees, until after it stops snowing significantly (mid April usually). > > Best, > Dave > > David Palumbo > Independent Power LLC > 462 Solar Way Drive > Hyde Park, VT 05655 > 802-888-7194 > > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of dan at foxfire-energy.com > Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 8:19 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs Roof Mount for Shedding snow > > > > Hi Guys, I have a customer who seems convinced that tilt up racking sheds snow better than conventional roof mounted arrays (irregardless of angle or panel manufacturer). Anyone else find this is true? Thanks db > > > > Dan Brown > Foxfire Energy Corp. > Renewable Energy Systems > (802)-483-2564 > www.Foxfire-Energy.com > NABCEP #092907-44 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Richard.L.Ratico at valley.net Sun Mar 29 09:17:24 2015 From: Richard.L.Ratico at valley.net (Richard L Ratico) Date: 29 Mar 2015 09:17:24 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tilt Racking vs Roof Mount for Shedding snow Message-ID: <177846082@retriever.VALLEY.NET> Dan, It's surprising the lower two rows of modules did not heat up sufficiently to melt completely clear once most of the snow had been removed. In my experience any remaining layer of ice starts melting immediately once the sun reaches the cells and they begin to warm up when they start producing power. Dick Ratico You wrote, We did set it up so the bottom two rows were on their own CC and could be cleared from the ground, but they never did totally clear. From howie at suncatchervt.com Sun Mar 29 14:25:13 2015 From: howie at suncatchervt.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 14:25:13 -0400 (Eas) Subject: [RE-wrenches] ITC - updated question on post-2016 Message-ID: <26907.66.220.236.87.1427653513.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com> I recently researched just this question, and from what I could gather from the SEIA website and some other online references which I'm not certain were up-to-date information, the residential tax credit can only be rolled forward 1 year, which is very different than what I had read in the past, and what I have told clients before. Apparently there is more flexibility using the business tax credit. I may have misinterpretted the information presented, but that is the best I could come up with. Certainly would appreciate hearing from someone more officially informed that the credit can be rolled forward more than 1 year. Howie Larry Crutcher wrote: The tax credit can be carried back one year and forward 20 years. Unless the credit is extended, it applies to systems placed in service on any dwelling unit by Dec. 31, 2016. Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On 3/27/15 4:41 PM, August Goers wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, > > > > Since we’re on the topic of the ITC, I have another question someone might be able to help with. Assuming that a system is placed into service prior to the end of 2016, it should qualify for the 30% tax credit. Some people do not have enough tax liability to take the whole credit in the same year of the installation and I believe they typically have 5 years to take the credit. Do this apply to post-2016 as well? In other words, if a system is placed into service in 2016 but the owner doesn’t have a tax appetite until sometime after 2016, can they still take the tax credit (within 5 years)? I’m assuming the answer is yes, but thought some of you might be more versed in the tax code. > > > > Thanks, > > > > August -- Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ Catamount Solar, LLC Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric & Hot Water Incentive Partner http://www.CatamountSolar.com 802-272-0004 From frenergy at psln.com Mon Mar 30 12:03:38 2015 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 09:03:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Acid containment References: <26907.66.220.236.87.1427653513.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com> Message-ID: Fellow Wrenches, I just called Tap Plastics hoping they would solve my problem of battery acid containment within a plywood battery box. I was surprised by their response that the acrylic was not impervious to acid and polyethylene would not work because sealants nor caulking adhere to it properly. They did not have anything that would work. I've used those individual battery boxes from an auto parts store (~$12/each) but they take up more space than just the batteries. Has anyone ever used ice dam underpayment, like Grace? Better idea? Thanks for any advice, Bill Feather River Solar Electric From solarworks at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 12:26:58 2015 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal Khalsa) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 09:26:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Acid containment In-Reply-To: References: <26907.66.220.236.87.1427653513.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com> Message-ID: Bill....We line our battery boxes with PVC liners like what is used in shower pans.....It is a thick PVC membrane....It is available at just about any tile supply store.....It is strong and impervious to battery acid..... Good luck. Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-218-0201 m 541-299-0402 o On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 9:03 AM, frenergy wrote: > Fellow Wrenches, > > I just called Tap Plastics hoping they would solve my problem of > battery acid containment within a plywood battery box. I was surprised by > their response that the acrylic was not impervious to acid and polyethylene > would not work because sealants nor caulking adhere to it properly. They > did not have anything that would work. > > I've used those individual battery boxes from an auto parts store > (~$12/each) but they take up more space than just the batteries. Has > anyone ever used ice dam underpayment, like Grace? Better idea? > > Thanks for any advice, > > Bill > Feather River Solar Electric > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Mon Mar 30 12:26:58 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 10:26:58 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Acid containment In-Reply-To: References: <26907.66.220.236.87.1427653513.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com> Message-ID: <55197952.7090302@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Mon Mar 30 12:36:02 2015 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 10:36:02 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Acid containment In-Reply-To: References: <26907.66.220.236.87.1427653513.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com> Message-ID: <55BA2BAE-F384-4547-8F4B-1D7B0763FEE6@skyfireenergy.com> Hi Bill, Think "spray-on". Build your box then spray on the liner. Have you seen "spray in box liners" for pick up trucks? It's pretty tough stuff and I would think that it would be able to hold acid. There are plenty of places, at least around here (Alberta), that do this and I'd also think that you could buy/rent what you need to do it yourself, onsite. Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 > On Mar 30, 2015, at 10:03 AM, "frenergy" wrote: > > Fellow Wrenches, > > I just called Tap Plastics hoping they would solve my problem of battery acid containment within a plywood battery box. I was surprised by their response that the acrylic was not impervious to acid and polyethylene would not work because sealants nor caulking adhere to it properly. They did not have anything that would work. > > I've used those individual battery boxes from an auto parts store (~$12/each) but they take up more space than just the batteries. Has anyone ever used ice dam underpayment, like Grace? Better idea? > > Thanks for any advice, > > Bill > Feather River Solar Electric > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From dana at solarwork.com Mon Mar 30 12:29:32 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 10:29:32 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Acid containment In-Reply-To: References: <26907.66.220.236.87.1427653513.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com> Message-ID: <008a01d06b06$b5f7b4f0$21e71ed0$@com> EDPM with is sold in rolls as pond liner is a great though floppy option. It is a H2SO4 safe option but it is hard to roll over with wheels when installing the larger heavier battery options. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 - No FAX Line "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of frenergy Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 10:04 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Acid containment Fellow Wrenches, I just called Tap Plastics hoping they would solve my problem of battery acid containment within a plywood battery box. I was surprised by their response that the acrylic was not impervious to acid and polyethylene would not work because sealants nor caulking adhere to it properly. They did not have anything that would work. I've used those individual battery boxes from an auto parts store (~$12/each) but they take up more space than just the batteries. Has anyone ever used ice dam underpayment, like Grace? Better idea? Thanks for any advice, Bill Feather River Solar Electric _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From benn at skyfireenergy.com Mon Mar 30 12:48:39 2015 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 10:48:39 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Acid containment In-Reply-To: <55197952.7090302@sindelarsolar.com> References: <26907.66.220.236.87.1427653513.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com> <55197952.7090302@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <90F92F62-1AA2-4A84-A31F-E4EB5A9565CA@skyfireenergy.com> Allan, How would you deal with a seam that happens to lay within the containment area? Do you seal/adhere it somehow? With what? Or do you find that you can get the liner sheets large enough that you just 'stuff it in' (for lack of a better term), and then in the corners do you just double it over to make a tight fit? Or make cuts in the corners...? Thanks, Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 > On Mar 30, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > > Bill, > We have lined plywood boxes with either EPDM roofing membrane or vinyl pond liner, depending on local availability, and both have worked well. Being a flexible sheet, it is folded up the sides and stapled above the containment zone. > Allan > > Allan Sindelar > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > 505 780-2738 cell > > >> On 3/30/2015 10:03 AM, frenergy wrote: >> Fellow Wrenches, >> >> I just called Tap Plastics hoping they would solve my problem of battery acid containment within a plywood battery box. I was surprised by their response that the acrylic was not impervious to acid and polyethylene would not work because sealants nor caulking adhere to it properly. They did not have anything that would work. >> >> I've used those individual battery boxes from an auto parts store (~$12/each) but they take up more space than just the batteries. Has anyone ever used ice dam underpayment, like Grace? Better idea? >> >> Thanks for any advice, >> >> Bill >> Feather River Solar Electric >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarwindworks.com Mon Mar 30 12:55:21 2015 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 09:55:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Acid containment In-Reply-To: References: <26907.66.220.236.87.1427653513.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com> Message-ID: <010701d06b0a$502dfae0$f089f0a0$@solarwindworks.com> Hi Bill, If you dabble in fiberglass, we had a client do his own layup in a plywood battery box, it worked well. Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP Certified PV Installer Office 530-582-4503 Cell 530-448-9692 Fax 530-582-4603 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of frenergy Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 9:04 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Acid containment Fellow Wrenches, I just called Tap Plastics hoping they would solve my problem of battery acid containment within a plywood battery box. I was surprised by their response that the acrylic was not impervious to acid and polyethylene would not work because sealants nor caulking adhere to it properly. They did not have anything that would work. I've used those individual battery boxes from an auto parts store (~$12/each) but they take up more space than just the batteries. Has anyone ever used ice dam underpayment, like Grace? Better idea? Thanks for any advice, Bill Feather River Solar Electric _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From frenergy at psln.com Mon Mar 30 13:19:15 2015 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 10:19:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Acid containment References: <26907.66.220.236.87.1427653513.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com><55197952.7090302@sindelarsolar.com> <90F92F62-1AA2-4A84-A31F-E4EB5A9565CA@skyfireenergy.com> Message-ID: <139322EF87BA41939E608E5DDFC43285@D8XG8YH1> Kirpal, Allen, Dana, Benn Yes, I'm curious about sealing laps, joints, corners, etc also. I've seen the PVC shower pan material...we'll see if its wide enough for our application, I always banked on about 3" up the side of a battery box would hold many gallons of acid. Benn, I did a search on this in the Wrench archives and someone mentioned the spray liner would soften (and then fail?) over time when exposed to acid. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: Benn Kilburn To: RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 9:48 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Acid containment Allan, How would you deal with a seam that happens to lay within the containment area? Do you seal/adhere it somehow? With what? Or do you find that you can get the liner sheets large enough that you just 'stuff it in' (for lack of a better term), and then in the corners do you just double it over to make a tight fit? Or make cuts in the corners...? Thanks, Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 On Mar 30, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: Bill, We have lined plywood boxes with either EPDM roofing membrane or vinyl pond liner, depending on local availability, and both have worked well. Being a flexible sheet, it is folded up the sides and stapled above the containment zone. Allan Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell On 3/30/2015 10:03 AM, frenergy wrote: Fellow Wrenches, I just called Tap Plastics hoping they would solve my problem of battery acid containment within a plywood battery box. I was surprised by their response that the acrylic was not impervious to acid and polyethylene would not work because sealants nor caulking adhere to it properly. They did not have anything that would work. I've used those individual battery boxes from an auto parts store (~$12/each) but they take up more space than just the batteries. Has anyone ever used ice dam underpayment, like Grace? Better idea? Thanks for any advice, Bill Feather River Solar Electric _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Mar 30 13:22:09 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 13:22:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Acid containment In-Reply-To: References: <26907.66.220.236.87.1427653513.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com> Message-ID: I have tested shower pan liners successfully as well. They are impervious to battery acid, even after long exposure. [image: Logo-Sq-80.png] Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer Florida Solar Design Group (239) 491-8010 office (239) 410-4985 mobile Authorized Sales Agent for Fafco Solar [image: Fafco-Solar-Enphase-Logo.png] License CVC56701 On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 12:26 PM, Kirpal Khalsa wrote: > Bill....We line our battery boxes with PVC liners like what is used in > shower pans.....It is a thick PVC membrane....It is available at just about > any tile supply store.....It is strong and impervious to battery acid..... > Good luck. > > Sunny Regards, > Kirpal Khalsa > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Oregon Solarworks LLC > www.oregonsolarworks.com > 541-218-0201 m > 541-299-0402 o > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 9:03 AM, frenergy wrote: > >> Fellow Wrenches, >> >> I just called Tap Plastics hoping they would solve my problem of >> battery acid containment within a plywood battery box. I was surprised by >> their response that the acrylic was not impervious to acid and polyethylene >> would not work because sealants nor caulking adhere to it properly. They >> did not have anything that would work. >> >> I've used those individual battery boxes from an auto parts store >> (~$12/each) but they take up more space than just the batteries. Has >> anyone ever used ice dam underpayment, like Grace? Better idea? >> >> Thanks for any advice, >> >> Bill >> Feather River Solar Electric >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Mon Mar 30 13:35:54 2015 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 10:35:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Acid containment In-Reply-To: <139322EF87BA41939E608E5DDFC43285@D8XG8YH1> References: <26907.66.220.236.87.1427653513.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com><55197952.7090302@sindelarsolar.com> <90F92F62-1AA2-4A84-A31F-E4EB5A9565CA@skyfireenergy.com> <139322EF87BA41939E608E5DDFC43285@D8XG8YH1> Message-ID: <97c8ac0e1684278699611ba28a0dfc60@mail.gmail.com> Bill, Off the shelf plastic tool boxes also work, we’ve used those in the past. You wouldn’t necessarily need to build a wood box around the plastic tool box(es) since they will hold up on their own. It all goes back to the size and number of batteries that you need and whether you can find a box that has appropriate dimensions. You’ve probably already considered this option, but I thought I’d mention it anyway. See attached pic as an example. Best, August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *frenergy *Sent:* Monday, March 30, 2015 10:19 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Acid containment Kirpal, Allen, Dana, Benn Yes, I'm curious about sealing laps, joints, corners, etc also. I've seen the PVC shower pan material...we'll see if its wide enough for our application, I always banked on about 3" up the side of a battery box would hold many gallons of acid. Benn, I did a search on this in the Wrench archives and someone mentioned the spray liner would soften (and then fail?) over time when exposed to acid. Bill ----- Original Message ----- *From:* Benn Kilburn *To:* RE-wrenches *Sent:* Monday, March 30, 2015 9:48 AM *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Acid containment Allan, How would you deal with a seam that happens to lay within the containment area? Do you seal/adhere it somehow? With what? Or do you find that you can get the liner sheets large enough that you just 'stuff it in' (for lack of a better term), and then in the corners do you just double it over to make a tight fit? Or make cuts in the corners...? Thanks, Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 On Mar 30, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: Bill, We have lined plywood boxes with either EPDM roofing membrane or vinyl pond liner, depending on local availability, and both have worked well. Being a flexible sheet, it is folded up the sides and stapled above the containment zone. Allan *Allan Sindelar* *allan at sindelarsolar.com* NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* On 3/30/2015 10:03 AM, frenergy wrote: Fellow Wrenches, I just called Tap Plastics hoping they would solve my problem of battery acid containment within a plywood battery box. I was surprised by their response that the acrylic was not impervious to acid and polyethylene would not work because sealants nor caulking adhere to it properly. They did not have anything that would work. I've used those individual battery boxes from an auto parts store (~$12/each) but they take up more space than just the batteries. Has anyone ever used ice dam underpayment, like Grace? Better idea? Thanks for any advice, Bill Feather River Solar Electric _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: *RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org* Change listserver email address & settings: *http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org* List-Archive: *http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html* List rules & etiquette: *www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm* Check out or update participant bios: *www.members.re-wrenches.org* _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: *RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org* Change listserver email address & settings: *http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org* List-Archive: *http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html* List rules & etiquette: *www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm* Check out or update participant bios: *www.members.re-wrenches.org* ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: plastic battery box Luminalt.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 73713 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dana at solarwork.com Mon Mar 30 13:37:21 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 11:37:21 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Acid containment In-Reply-To: <139322EF87BA41939E608E5DDFC43285@D8XG8YH1> References: <26907.66.220.236.87.1427653513.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com><55197952.7090302@sindelarsolar.com> <90F92F62-1AA2-4A84-A31F-E4EB5A9565CA@skyfireenergy.com> <139322EF87BA41939E608E5DDFC43285@D8XG8YH1> Message-ID: <00d001d06b10$2d8dc960$88a95c20$@com> If you call up a chemical resistant chart the options are not huge PVC is good that's why battery vents are PVC. On the EDPM: you fold & only cut up high! I was thinking on this and you could lay the EDPM down folded up & tacked on the back & sides and then lay down a sheet of plywood to "protect" the EDPM from getting damaged as you move your battery bank into place, then pull the front EDPM up, attach the front panel and secure the EDPM to the upper inside front panel. It's like origami or making an envelope out of a flat sheet of paper. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 - No FAX Line "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of frenergy Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 11:19 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Acid containment Kirpal, Allen, Dana, Benn Yes, I'm curious about sealing laps, joints, corners, etc also. I've seen the PVC shower pan material...we'll see if its wide enough for our application, I always banked on about 3" up the side of a battery box would hold many gallons of acid. Benn, I did a search on this in the Wrench archives and someone mentioned the spray liner would soften (and then fail?) over time when exposed to acid. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: Benn Kilburn To: RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 9:48 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Acid containment Allan, How would you deal with a seam that happens to lay within the containment area? Do you seal/adhere it somehow? With what? Or do you find that you can get the liner sheets large enough that you just 'stuff it in' (for lack of a better term), and then in the corners do you just double it over to make a tight fit? Or make cuts in the corners...? Thanks, Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 On Mar 30, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: Bill, We have lined plywood boxes with either EPDM roofing membrane or vinyl pond liner, depending on local availability, and both have worked well. Being a flexible sheet, it is folded up the sides and stapled above the containment zone. Allan Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell On 3/30/2015 10:03 AM, frenergy wrote: Fellow Wrenches, I just called Tap Plastics hoping they would solve my problem of battery acid containment within a plywood battery box. I was surprised by their response that the acrylic was not impervious to acid and polyethylene would not work because sealants nor caulking adhere to it properly. They did not have anything that would work. I've used those individual battery boxes from an auto parts store (~$12/each) but they take up more space than just the batteries. Has anyone ever used ice dam underpayment, like Grace? Better idea? Thanks for any advice, Bill Feather River Solar Electric _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _____ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Mar 30 14:13:33 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 12:13:33 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Acid containment In-Reply-To: References: <26907.66.220.236.87.1427653513.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com> Message-ID: <5519924D.7020609@solarray.com> We have used the underlayment material to line battery boxes. Turns out it gets eaten by the acid too, not recommended. Really the best product I've ever used is just the heavy plastic sheeting to line the inside of the box. I had batteries crack and leak acid almost 2 inches deep, and the plastic sheeting held it. We try to use large plastic tool/ cargo boxes. The auto parts single boxes are not a good idea for more than a single battery: exposed cables and jumpers. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 3/30/2015 10:03 AM, frenergy wrote: > Fellow Wrenches, > > I just called Tap Plastics hoping they would solve my problem > of battery acid containment within a plywood battery box. I was > surprised by their response that the acrylic was not impervious to > acid and polyethylene would not work because sealants nor caulking > adhere to it properly. They did not have anything that would work. > > I've used those individual battery boxes from an auto parts > store (~$12/each) but they take up more space than just the > batteries. Has anyone ever used ice dam underpayment, like Grace? > Better idea? > > Thanks for any advice, > > Bill > Feather River Solar Electric > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From ray at solarray.com Mon Mar 30 14:14:40 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 12:14:40 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Acid containment In-Reply-To: <55BA2BAE-F384-4547-8F4B-1D7B0763FEE6@skyfireenergy.com> References: <26907.66.220.236.87.1427653513.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com> <55BA2BAE-F384-4547-8F4B-1D7B0763FEE6@skyfireenergy.com> Message-ID: <55199290.9000608@solarray.com> Acid will eat spray on bed liner too R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 3/30/2015 10:36 AM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > Hi Bill, > Think "spray-on". Build your box then spray on the liner. > Have you seen "spray in box liners" for pick up trucks? It's pretty tough stuff and I would think that it would be able to hold acid. There are plenty of places, at least around here (Alberta), that do this and I'd also think that you could buy/rent what you need to do it yourself, onsite. > > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy Inc. > 780-906-7807 > > >> On Mar 30, 2015, at 10:03 AM, "frenergy" wrote: >> >> Fellow Wrenches, >> >> I just called Tap Plastics hoping they would solve my problem of battery acid containment within a plywood battery box. I was surprised by their response that the acrylic was not impervious to acid and polyethylene would not work because sealants nor caulking adhere to it properly. They did not have anything that would work. >> >> I've used those individual battery boxes from an auto parts store (~$12/each) but they take up more space than just the batteries. Has anyone ever used ice dam underpayment, like Grace? Better idea? >> >> Thanks for any advice, >> >> Bill >> Feather River Solar Electric >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From wayne at pureenergysolar.com Mon Mar 30 14:29:16 2015 From: wayne at pureenergysolar.com (Wayne Irwin) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 14:29:16 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Acid containment In-Reply-To: References: <26907.66.220.236.87.1427653513.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com>, Message-ID: Shower pan liner would probably work very well. Wayne Irwin, President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com http://PureEnergySolar.com http://SolarChargingStation.net 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. > From: frenergy at psln.com > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 09:03:38 -0700 > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Acid containment > > Fellow Wrenches, > > I just called Tap Plastics hoping they would solve my problem of > battery acid containment within a plywood battery box. I was surprised by > their response that the acrylic was not impervious to acid and polyethylene > would not work because sealants nor caulking adhere to it properly. They > did not have anything that would work. > > I've used those individual battery boxes from an auto parts store > (~$12/each) but they take up more space than just the batteries. Has anyone > ever used ice dam underpayment, like Grace? Better idea? > > Thanks for any advice, > > Bill > Feather River Solar Electric > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at independentpowerllc.com Mon Mar 30 14:38:20 2015 From: dave at independentpowerllc.com (Dave) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 14:38:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Acid containment In-Reply-To: References: <26907.66.220.236.87.1427653513.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com> Message-ID: <005301d06b18$b2963540$17c29fc0$@com> Bill, I have lined our plywood battery boxes for many years with 6 mil polyethylene sheeting. I do two layers, neatly fold the corners so it form fits then run it up the side walls about 10 inches only and staple the poly to the plywood. To protect the poly liner from the weight of the batteries I use 1" x 3" softwood strapping that I sand down so no rough edges will damage the poly. I first spread out a small amount of baking soda on the bottom of the battery box (on the plywood) before installing the poly liner, then on the poly before placing the batteries on top of the strapping. Two runs of strapping for one row of batteries and four rows of strapping for two rows of batteries. This is simple and cost effective method that has had excellent results over the years. Recently removed the second battery bank from a twenty year old battery box set up in this method. We removed the poly liner for the first time and we found the 3/4" plywood to be in good enough shape to use for the third set of batteries. - Dave David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-888-7194 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of frenergy Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 12:04 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Acid containment Fellow Wrenches, I just called Tap Plastics hoping they would solve my problem of battery acid containment within a plywood battery box. I was surprised by their response that the acrylic was not impervious to acid and polyethylene would not work because sealants nor caulking adhere to it properly. They did not have anything that would work. I've used those individual battery boxes from an auto parts store (~$12/each) but they take up more space than just the batteries. Has anyone ever used ice dam underpayment, like Grace? Better idea? Thanks for any advice, Bill Feather River Solar Electric _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From hiltondier at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 16:10:15 2015 From: hiltondier at gmail.com (Hilton Dier III) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 16:10:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Acid containment Message-ID: <5519ADA7.9070108@gmail.com> US Plastic (usplastic.com) carries polyethylene tanks used in industry for acids. You can get them in various sizes - 24" x 36" x 20" deep and larger. They will custom heat weld whatever you want. Kind of pricey (~$300) but heavy duty. Hilton -- Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Partner, Solar Gain LLC 453 East Hill Rd. Middlesex, VT 05602 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Mar 31 13:40:45 2015 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 10:40:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Upgrading old inverters to TL? Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, We commonly upgrade old failed out-of-warranty grid tied inverters as part of our O&M business. Anyway, we’ve been using standard transformer based isolated inverters just like the good old days. However, as the industry progresses it seems like transformer based inverters are going the way of the dodo. Does anyone know of a code compliant way to install a transformerless ungrounded inverter on an old PV array with USE-2 wire? The problem is that the modules from just a few years ago all or mostly had USE-2 and I can’t find a way to meet NEC 690.35(D)(3). Best, August August Goers Luminalt Energy Corporation o:415.641.4000 august at luminalt.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Mar 31 15:44:39 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 15:44:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Upgrading old inverters to TL? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Probably not what you want to hear, but microinverters might work depending on the module. Jason On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 1:40 PM, August Goers wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > > > We commonly upgrade old failed out-of-warranty grid tied inverters as part > of our O&M business. Anyway, we’ve been using standard transformer based > isolated inverters just like the good old days. However, as the industry > progresses it seems like transformer based inverters are going the way of > the dodo. Does anyone know of a code compliant way to install a > transformerless ungrounded inverter on an old PV array with USE-2 wire? The > problem is that the modules from just a few years ago all or mostly had > USE-2 and I can’t find a way to meet NEC 690.35(D)(3). > > > > Best, > > > > August > > > > August Goers > > Luminalt Energy Corporation > > o:415.641.4000 > > august at luminalt.com > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Mar 31 17:44:28 2015 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 14:44:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ITC - updated question on post-2016 In-Reply-To: <26907.66.220.236.87.1427653513.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com> References: <26907.66.220.236.87.1427653513.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com> Message-ID: <07929ba03bb48868c80e5a9ccb45497d@mail.gmail.com> I guess this just goes to show how confusing this issue is. DSIRE says the following in the Summary section for the residential ITC: "The excess credit may be carried forward until 2016, but it is unclear whether the unused tax credit can be carried forward after then." http://programs.dsireusa.org/system/program/detail/1235 And I can't really make out what the actual code is trying to say (see section (2) Carryforward of unused credit): http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2011-title26/pdf/USCODE-2011-title26-s ubtitleA-chap1-subchapA-partIV-subpartA-sec25D.pdf Best, August -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Howie Michaelson Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 11:25 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] ITC - updated question on post-2016 I recently researched just this question, and from what I could gather from the SEIA website and some other online references which I'm not certain were up-to-date information, the residential tax credit can only be rolled forward 1 year, which is very different than what I had read in the past, and what I have told clients before. Apparently there is more flexibility using the business tax credit. I may have misinterpretted the information presented, but that is the best I could come up with. Certainly would appreciate hearing from someone more officially informed that the credit can be rolled forward more than 1 year. Howie Larry Crutcher wrote: The tax credit can be carried back one year and forward 20 years. Unless the credit is extended, it applies to systems placed in service on any dwelling unit by Dec. 31, 2016. Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On 3/27/15 4:41 PM, August Goers wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, > > > > Since we're on the topic of the ITC, I have another question someone might be able to help with. Assuming that a system is placed into service prior to the end of 2016, it should qualify for the 30% tax credit. Some people do not have enough tax liability to take the whole credit in the same year of the installation and I believe they typically have 5 years to take the credit. Do this apply to post-2016 as well? In other words, if a system is placed into service in 2016 but the owner doesn't have a tax appetite until sometime after 2016, can they still take the tax credit (within 5 years)? I'm assuming the answer is yes, but thought some of you might be more versed in the tax code. > > > > Thanks, > > > > August -- Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalT Catamount Solar, LLC Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric & Hot Water Incentive Partner http://www.CatamountSolar.com 802-272-0004 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htm l List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From allan at sindelarsolar.com Wed Apr 1 18:06:29 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2015 16:06:29 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Acid containment In-Reply-To: <90F92F62-1AA2-4A84-A31F-E4EB5A9565CA@skyfireenergy.com> References: <26907.66.220.236.87.1427653513.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com> <55197952.7090302@sindelarsolar.com> <90F92F62-1AA2-4A84-A31F-E4EB5A9565CA@skyfireenergy.com> Message-ID: <551C6BE5.8070801@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Wed Apr 1 18:13:19 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2015 16:13:19 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Acid containment - large plastic box In-Reply-To: <97c8ac0e1684278699611ba28a0dfc60@mail.gmail.com> References: <26907.66.220.236.87.1427653513.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com><55197952.7090302@sindelarsolar.com> <90F92F62-1AA2-4A84-A31F-E4EB5A9565CA@skyfireenergy.com> <139322EF87BA41939E608E5DDFC43285@D8XG8YH1> <97c8ac0e1684278699611ba28a0dfc60@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <551C6D7F.3020505@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 18:22:35 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2015 12:22:35 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Acid containment In-Reply-To: <551C6BE5.8070801@sindelarsolar.com> References: <26907.66.220.236.87.1427653513.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com> <55197952.7090302@sindelarsolar.com> <90F92F62-1AA2-4A84-A31F-E4EB5A9565CA@skyfireenergy.com> <551C6BE5.8070801@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Same stuff we use EPDM you can also get it from roofers Jerry On Apr 1, 2015 12:06 PM, "Allan Sindelar" wrote: > Benn, > Seams have never been an issue, because the material is large enough that > it doesn't require seams. Pond liner comes on a roll about 15' wide, so a > 48" or 66" slice can line 2-3 boxes. We cut a rectangle about 12-14" longer > in each direction than the floor, centering the material with 6-7" up each > side and stapled in place along the top edge. A simple corner fold at each > corner works well. I have found it in stock (typically depending on the > season) at Home Depot. > Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* > > > On 3/30/2015 10:48 AM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > > Allan, > How would you deal with a seam that happens to lay within the containment > area? Do you seal/adhere it somehow? With what? Or do you find that you > can get the liner sheets large enough that you just 'stuff it in' (for lack > of a better term), and then in the corners do you just double it over to > make a tight fit? Or make cuts in the corners...? > Thanks, > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy Inc. > 780-906-7807 > > > On Mar 30, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Allan Sindelar > wrote: > > Bill, > We have lined plywood boxes with either EPDM roofing membrane or vinyl > pond liner, depending on local availability, and both have worked well. > Being a flexible sheet, it is folded up the sides and stapled above the > containment zone. > Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* > > > On 3/30/2015 10:03 AM, frenergy wrote: > > Fellow Wrenches, > > I just called Tap Plastics hoping they would solve my problem of > battery acid containment within a plywood battery box. I was surprised by > their response that the acrylic was not impervious to acid and polyethylene > would not work because sealants nor caulking adhere to it properly. They > did not have anything that would work. > > I've used those individual battery boxes from an auto parts store > (~$12/each) but they take up more space than just the batteries. Has > anyone ever used ice dam underpayment, like Grace? Better idea? > > Thanks for any advice, > > Bill > Feather River Solar Electric > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay at asis.com Wed Apr 1 21:28:38 2015 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2015 18:28:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] follow up In-Reply-To: <55159054.1040607@solarray.com> References: <018101d06824$63d550e0$2b7ff2a0$@com> <7AACF8B4060045E6A914FE779165682A@D8XG8YH1> <5514DCED.2030207@sindelarsolar.com> <5B09F73A-93E9-414A-9E66-A02225173AF7@swnl.net> <021001d06895$c0ed3010$42c79030$@com> <55159054.1040607@solarray.com> Message-ID: Hi All, I wanted to follow up to a post thread a few weeks ago. I had a generator/outback radian issue with pulsing LED lights. I finally was able to get out there. Once I put the Radian into generator support mode, all the problems went away. Pretty impressive. You could watch the input voltage swing around a bit, but the output voltage was totally stable. All the LED lights worked like they should, the dimmers also. Most impressive. Much thanks to all the support/design at Outback. Jay Peltz power -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Thu Apr 2 17:43:58 2015 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2015 17:43:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank In-Reply-To: References: <55087548.2040101@starlightsolar.com> <55089E6D.4040508@starlightsolar.com> <5509A084.7040306@starlightsolar.com> <69ECAF42-45B1-4A24-B54C-7EFDF1AEA0B6@mendocinosolar.com> Message-ID: <01ea01d06d8e$21703610$6450a230$@solarandwindfx.com> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Shafer Sent: Wednesday, 18 March, 2015 21:57 To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank We use elite batteries with BMS no problems, the BMS sensor does seem to run warm we are now setting up 4, 100 Ah banks with no problems so far. Jerry Not at all. The EMS boards are well built and are protected under a cover with the terminals. I have not had any failures of the EMS boards or any failure to communicate with them. Larry On Mar 18, 2015 1:52 PM, "Bruce Erickson" wrote: If a communication failure with a single cell (not even an actual fault) can cause total battery shutdown, does that lead to a lot of nuisance tripping? Bruce Erickson Mendocino Solar Service PO Box 1252 Mendocino, CA 95460 707-937-1701 707-937-1741 fax bruce at mendocinosolar.com Celebrating 20 Years in Solar! 1994-2014 On Mar 18, 2015, at 8:57 AM, Larry wrote: Hi Jarmo, I agree and recognize your urgency in making us aware of the proper use and charging of Li-ion batteries as well as the dangers of mistreating them. As an early adopter myself, I am very cautious in my approach even to the point of refusing to sell to some customers. Lithium battery technology is in a state of rapid evolution. Not wanting to harp on the GBS brand that I sell, but one of your points goes to prove the safety of their integrated approach. You said, "...all it takes is one poor connection or broken temp sensor on one cell." The GBS EMS system has cell level sensors for temperature (and other data) and each sensor board requires constant communication with the CPU. If the EMS fails to communicate any information with any cell, the CPU immediately shuts down both safety solenoids, disconnecting the battery. With the non integrated systems, failures that don't report information to the management system could lead to disaster. Please keep offering us the knowledge you are gaining as I am a firm believer that Lithium technology is a large part of the inevitable replacement the aged lead battery. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On 3/17/15 6:11 PM, Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com wrote: Hi: I may sound like I'm a detractor against using Lion, but that's not it. What I want to bring to light is that, being as the technology is new, not all the issues are known and there are things to learn for all early adopters in the foreseeable future. >From what I can gather the framework for the issues lies in that Lion technology is based on intercalation, that is, a reversible insertion and removal of Li molecules into compounds with microscopically layered structures. This predicates that there must be no chemical reaction in the battery, but rather only the shelving of the highly reactive Li ions. If there are any chemical reactions taking place, then in the least the battery performance is compromised and in the most there is a thermal event or worse There are some very robust Lion battery packs, a favorite of mine being from a local company from Vancouver, (well Richmond, which is a suburb of Vancouver). It's a small company, but they have designed, developed, built and successfully approved their 6 kWh Lion pack for use in large car ferries in Scandinavia. The ferries have stacks of these packs in the 100's, in the MWh size. It can be done. What I'm advocating is that its best to work with companies that have the time, interest and resources to work through the wrinkles, and if not, then carefully put in reliable and precise BMS circuitry which includes things like fail safe circuits for single point failures of critical sensing circuits, the foremost of which is cell temperature. When you're pushing large currents, all it takes is one poor connection or broken temp sensor on one cell...... Here's a link to the Lion battery pack manufacturer, Corvus, http://corvus-energy.com/ I know they do a good job, but they're not cheap,.... for now... JARMO Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kelly at whidbeysunwind.com Thu Apr 2 18:19:11 2015 From: kelly at whidbeysunwind.com (Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2015 15:19:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV step-up transformer design Message-ID: <7010DA9F-54AD-477E-B855-6DEC65CF890A@whidbeysunwind.com> Wrenches, We have issues with a 1-1/2 year old 25 kW grid-tied PV system utilizing 2 step up transformers from the array to grid. Actually it’s two identical, 12.5 kW systems (for incentive and financing reasons) on each transformer. Note that the inverter size and voltage selection was also dictated by incentives. Each of the two systems are designed as follows: - 3, 3.8 kW, 240 Vac inverters (16A max output current) across each phase of the 240V, 3-ph Delta primary of a 15 kVA transformer. Each inverter 1-ph output has a fused disconnect. The output of all three inverters is combined into 3 phase delta configuration with terminal blocks before the transformer. Other than the inverter AC disconnects there is no OCPD on the 3-ph primary side of the transformer. - Transformer secondary to grid is 277/480 wye. The secondary output has two fused disconnects (one at each end of the 600-ft run between array and line-side connection) each with 20-A fuses. After more than year of operation we noticed one inverter, in one of the two identical systems, was down (monitoring showed it happened past December), indicating a grid problem. One fuse (of the 3) in the secondary (grid-side) fused disco had blown. Replaced that fuse, but then 2 fuses at the disconnect near the meter, 600 feet away, popped. Systematic checking of the system reveals no shorted conductors, but a problem at the transformer. Close inspection revealed that the insulation on our 90˚C neutral conductor had slightly melted where it touched the X-O neutral wire of the transformer (the splice looked fine). Now it gets more interesting…. In the last week, while troubleshooting the first 12.5 kW system, its adjacent twin system had an inverter quit with a ground-fault error (these inverters commonly will display ground fault errors for other reasons). One of the 20A fuses in the secondary (grid 277/480) side had popped. And, yup, the neutral wire had signs of overheating. We shut all three inverters down in that system. The transformer doesn’t seem damaged, hopefully because we caught it in time. But we’re looking at a replacement transformer for the first system. Here’s what we think may have happened: The grid went down and, on coming back on, the in-rush current to the secondary side of the transformer popped a (undersized) fuse, taking out one leg of the 480. One inverter on the primary side saw a bad grid and dropped out, but the other two connected and kept producing. This unbalanced production resulted in the neutral of the secondary wye (grid) side of the transformer, being overloaded. Over 3 months this unbalanced operation damaged the transformer. Initially we replaced the fuses near the line-connection with 60A (it’s a hot-swap and we don’t want those to go again unless the conductors need it), and the fuses near the array transformer secondary with 30A, thinking that will handle the inrush current to the transformer after a grid outage better than the 20A fuses. However, after a lot of discussion, research, and consideration of the risk (of replacing another transformer) we’re wondering if we need to alter the design more substantially. The main design change we’re considering is to replace the fused disconnect on the secondary side with a 3-phase breaker, that will shut off all phases of the grid supply simultaneously in case of an over-current fault. But, what if one inverter just plain quits and that breaker stays on? Will the neutral on the secondary still be overloaded from the other two? Other changes we’re pondering include: - Do we need a ganged 3-ph breaker on the inverter side, so that all three inverters go off at once? This will only be useful in case of over current on an inverter output, which isn’t likely, and is now addressed with the fused 240 AC 1-ph disconnects on the inverter outputs. - Use a step-down transformer in reverse. I.E. use a 277/480 wye primary and 240 delta secondary and back feed the secondary with the PV. Some info from other sources suggest that this will reduce the inrush current from the grid after an outage. I think this would be inefficient at transmitting the PV power. - Can/should we remove the neutral connection to the transformer on the secondary side? There are no 277 loads or sources. - Can/should we put OCP on the neutral to the transformer? Your suggestions and experience will be appreciated. This has additional importance as we are preparing to install another 75 kW at the same site utilizing 240Vac inverters to the 277/480 grid. Thanks, -Kelly Kelly Keilwitz, P.E. Principal Whidbey Sun & Wind Renewable Energy Systems NABCEP PV Installation Professional WA Electrical Administrator kelly at whidbeysunwind.com PH & FAX: 360.678.7131 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Thu Apr 2 19:09:04 2015 From: Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com (Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2015 19:09:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV step-up transformer design In-Reply-To: <7010DA9F-54AD-477E-B855-6DEC65CF890A@whidbeysunwind.com> References: <7010DA9F-54AD-477E-B855-6DEC65CF890A@whidbeysunwind.com> Message-ID: Hi: You've run into one of the reasons why single phase inverters which are operated as a 3-phase cluster, are supposed to have built in circuits/comm wires which send a shutdown signal from one to the others so that if one stops, they all do. The Xantrex GT / Conext TX have an RJ-11 wire connection called AC-sync which takes cares of this requirement. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: "Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind" To: RE Wrenches listserve , Date: 04/02/2015 03:19 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV step-up transformer design Sent by: "RE-wrenches" Wrenches, We have issues with a 1-1/2 year old 25 kW grid-tied PV system utilizing 2 step up transformers from the array to grid. Actually it’s two identical, 12.5 kW systems (for incentive and financing reasons) on each transformer. Note that the inverter size and voltage selection was also dictated by incentives. Each of the two systems are designed as follows: - 3, 3.8 kW, 240 Vac inverters (16A max output current) across each phase of the 240V, 3-ph Delta primary of a 15 kVA transformer. Each inverter 1-ph output has a fused disconnect. The output of all three inverters is combined into 3 phase delta configuration with terminal blocks before the transformer. Other than the inverter AC disconnects there is no OCPD on the 3-ph primary side of the transformer. - Transformer secondary to grid is 277/480 wye. The secondary output has two fused disconnects (one at each end of the 600-ft run between array and line-side connection) each with 20-A fuses. After more than year of operation we noticed one inverter, in one of the two identical systems, was down (monitoring showed it happened past December), indicating a grid problem. One fuse (of the 3) in the secondary (grid-side) fused disco had blown. Replaced that fuse, but then 2 fuses at the disconnect near the meter, 600 feet away, popped. Systematic checking of the system reveals no shorted conductors, but a problem at the transformer. Close inspection revealed that the insulation on our 90?C neutral conductor had slightly melted where it touched the X-O neutral wire of the transformer (the splice looked fine). Now it gets more interesting…. In the last week, while troubleshooting the first 12.5 kW system, its adjacent twin system had an inverter quit with a ground-fault error (these inverters commonly will display ground fault errors for other reasons). One of the 20A fuses in the secondary (grid 277/480) side had popped. And, yup, the neutral wire had signs of overheating. We shut all three inverters down in that system. The transformer doesn’t seem damaged, hopefully because we caught it in time. But we’re looking at a replacement transformer for the first system. Here’s what we think may have happened: The grid went down and, on coming back on, the in-rush current to the secondary side of the transformer popped a (undersized) fuse, taking out one leg of the 480. One inverter on the primary side saw a bad grid and dropped out, but the other two connected and kept producing. This unbalanced production resulted in the neutral of the secondary wye (grid) side of the transformer, being overloaded. Over 3 months this unbalanced operation damaged the transformer. Initially we replaced the fuses near the line-connection with 60A (it’s a hot-swap and we don’t want those to go again unless the conductors need it), and the fuses near the array transformer secondary with 30A, thinking that will handle the inrush current to the transformer after a grid outage better than the 20A fuses. However, after a lot of discussion, research, and consideration of the risk (of replacing another transformer) we’re wondering if we need to alter the design more substantially. The main design change we’re considering is to replace the fused disconnect on the secondary side with a 3-phase breaker, that will shut off all phases of the grid supply simultaneously in case of an over-current fault. But, what if one inverter just plain quits and that breaker stays on? Will the neutral on the secondary still be overloaded from the other two? Other changes we’re pondering include: - Do we need a ganged 3-ph breaker on the inverter side, so that all three inverters go off at once? This will only be useful in case of over current on an inverter output, which isn’t likely, and is now addressed with the fused 240 AC 1-ph disconnects on the inverter outputs. - Use a step-down transformer in reverse. I.E. use a 277/480 wye primary and 240 delta secondary and back feed the secondary with the PV. Some info from other sources suggest that this will reduce the inrush current from the grid after an outage. I think this would be inefficient at transmitting the PV power. - Can/should we remove the neutral connection to the transformer on the secondary side? There are no 277 loads or sources. - Can/should we put OCP on the neutral to the transformer? Your suggestions and experience will be appreciated. This has additional importance as we are preparing to install another 75 kW at the same site utilizing 240Vac inverters to the 277/480 grid. Thanks, -Kelly Kelly Keilwitz, P.E. Principal Whidbey Sun & Wind Renewable Energy Systems NABCEP PV Installation Professional WA Electrical Administrator kelly at whidbeysunwind.com PH & FAX: 360.678.7131 ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gary at windstreamsolar.com Thu Apr 2 22:47:41 2015 From: gary at windstreamsolar.com (Gary Higbee) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2015 19:47:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Gen preheat in cold climates Message-ID: <32758040-7448-480E-9E83-E520867C9F75@windstreamsolar.com> Wrenches, I'm curious what strategies you use to preheat a propane gen in cold climates. This is a large off-grid design in a sub-zero winter climate and ideal would be to turn on a block heater an hour or two in advance, then run the gen cycle. We plan to use either a Schneider XW or Outback Radian configuration (still very interested in which you'd use and why). We could set up a logic/relay system to first send the gen request to the heater for a while and then turn off and initiate a gen cycle but that would eliminate the ability for autostart on short notice. I've read of heat lamps on a thermostat, just wondering if you have seen other solutions. Thanks! Gary From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 23:10:03 2015 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2015 21:10:03 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Gen preheat in cold climates In-Reply-To: <32758040-7448-480E-9E83-E520867C9F75@windstreamsolar.com> References: <32758040-7448-480E-9E83-E520867C9F75@windstreamsolar.com> Message-ID: Hi Gary, We have implemented a preheat strategy that has really worked well at a site using dual sunny islands. They have a load shed function built in with the control relays. We are using that function to add the block heater load. When a generator start is likely (~50% SOC) it triggers a relay that energized the block heater. The generator start is then programmed at a lower SOC (~30% SOC). It takes some guesswork to know how many watt hours its going to take to get the block heated up, but we conservatively chose and have fiddled with it. I imagine this can be done with either the Radian or the XW, and you could trigger with voltage instead of SOC, but SOC is a superior way to do it. Another way is to use a propane block heater. This will work well, but they use quite a bit of propane, and are very expensive (~$1500). Good luck On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 8:47 PM, Gary Higbee wrote: > Wrenches, > > I'm curious what strategies you use to preheat a propane gen in cold > climates. This is a large off-grid design in a sub-zero winter climate and > ideal would be to turn on a block heater an hour or two in advance, then > run the gen cycle. We plan to use either a Schneider XW or Outback Radian > configuration (still very interested in which you'd use and why). We could > set up a logic/relay system to first send the gen request to the heater for > a while and then turn off and initiate a gen cycle but that would eliminate > the ability for autostart on short notice. I've read of heat lamps on a > thermostat, just wondering if you have seen other solutions. > > Thanks! > > Gary > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Fri Apr 3 01:34:01 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2015 23:34:01 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Gen preheat in cold climates In-Reply-To: References: <32758040-7448-480E-9E83-E520867C9F75@windstreamsolar.com> Message-ID: <551E2649.8060600@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri Apr 3 10:32:26 2015 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 07:32:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Gen preheat in cold climates In-Reply-To: References: <32758040-7448-480E-9E83-E520867C9F75@windstreamsolar.com> Message-ID: <7f7dde622ccc488324976d9b7c2485e2.squirrel@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> We are dealing with a generator that absolutely won't start when cold, so I was considering a block heater. Below 20 deg F it has proven worthless, and we can see -20 F on occasion. My concern is using power from a low battery on a cold cloudy day to heat a generator. How long does it take to make a difference? Has this method proven 100% reliable? Thanks, Drake > Hi Gary, > > We have implemented a preheat strategy that has really worked well at a > site using dual sunny islands. They have a load shed function built in > with the control relays. We are using that function to add the block > heater load. When a generator start is likely (~50% SOC) it triggers a > relay that energized the block heater. The generator start is then > programmed at a lower SOC (~30% SOC). It takes some guesswork to know how > many watt hours its going to take to get the block heated up, but we > conservatively chose and have fiddled with it. I imagine this can be done > with either the Radian or the XW, and you could trigger with voltage > instead of SOC, but SOC is a superior way to do it. > > Another way is to use a propane block heater. This will work well, but > they use quite a bit of propane, and are very expensive (~$1500). > > Good luck > > On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 8:47 PM, Gary Higbee > wrote: > >> Wrenches, >> >> I'm curious what strategies you use to preheat a propane gen in cold >> climates. This is a large off-grid design in a sub-zero winter climate >> and >> ideal would be to turn on a block heater an hour or two in advance, then >> run the gen cycle. We plan to use either a Schneider XW or Outback >> Radian >> configuration (still very interested in which you'd use and why). We >> could >> set up a logic/relay system to first send the gen request to the heater >> for >> a while and then turn off and initiate a gen cycle but that would >> eliminate >> the ability for autostart on short notice. I've read of heat lamps on a >> thermostat, just wondering if you have seen other solutions. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Gary >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From jj at aprsworld.com Fri Apr 3 11:21:03 2015 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jefferson Jarvis) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2015 10:21:03 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Gen preheat in cold climates In-Reply-To: <7f7dde622ccc488324976d9b7c2485e2.squirrel@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> References: <32758040-7448-480E-9E83-E520867C9F75@windstreamsolar.com> <7f7dde622ccc488324976d9b7c2485e2.squirrel@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <551EAFDF.3000301@aprsworld.com> On 4/3/2015 9:32 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > We are dealing with a generator that absolutely won't start when cold, so > I was considering a block heater. Below 20 deg F it has proven worthless, > and we can see -20 F on occasion. I had a generator like that. Below zero it wouldn't start. Replaced it's cranking battery with a bigger battery and it starts great. There are also super-capacitor based solutions to get better cranking. If you have a 24 volt system and your generator is near your battery bank, you may even be able to put a 24 volt starter on the generator and start from your battery bank. > My concern is using power from a low battery on a cold cloudy day to heat > a generator. How long does it take to make a difference? Has this method > proven 100% reliable? What type and how big of engine are you talking about? How big is the block heater? My limited block heater experience with vehicles, tractors, etc is that an hour won't be enough. A couple hours is needed. With coolant heaters and fuel injected engines, an hour can actually cause problems. A pocket of coolant gets warm and tricks the engine management computer into thinking the coolant is warm. Then it tries to do a warm start and fails. Getting a generator that starts reliably is the best solution I see for a moderate sized off grid installation. Otherwise you are putting a lot of energy into warming up an engine that might not start. And leaving you in a worse situation than you started. -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 www.aprsworld.com From dan at foxfire-energy.com Fri Apr 3 11:50:14 2015 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (dan at foxfire-energy.com) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2015 08:50:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Gen preheat in cold climates Message-ID: <20150403085014.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.316a3bd304.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sigimg0 Type: image/png Size: 25138 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Fri Apr 3 11:56:00 2015 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (dan at foxfire-energy.com) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2015 08:56:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Gen preheat in cold climates Message-ID: <20150403085600.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.0b28a2006f.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sigimg0 Type: image/png Size: 25138 bytes Desc: not available URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Fri Apr 3 13:51:45 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Larry) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2015 10:51:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Gen preheat in cold climates In-Reply-To: <551E2649.8060600@sindelarsolar.com> References: <32758040-7448-480E-9E83-E520867C9F75@windstreamsolar.com> <551E2649.8060600@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <551ED331.4000802@starlightsolar.com> About the carb heat idea...LP is a liquid at -44=C2=B0F. The liquid does no= t=20 combust, it must be vaporized. As the ambient temperature drops closer=20 to the LP liquid temperature, there would be a reduction in how fast=20 liquid is vaporizing and therefor a reduction in volume. What you need=20 in cold weather is enough volume to maintain at least 11" wc while=20 cranking or running the engine. You can test the vapor pressure with a=20 manometer while cranking to verify if this is the problem. If this is the reason the engine does not run, my thoughts are that=20 heating the LP regulator would be much more economical from an energy=20 standpoint, than heating the whole engine block. Perhaps an insulated=20 enclosure with silicone heaters appropriately attached would work. They=20 are available in many DC or AC and at various voltages. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On 4/2/15 10:34 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > Gary, > Mac's approach is intelligent and will work well, as an automated=20 > system with the right hardware. We took a quite different approach on=20 > a somewhat similar scenario in 2009. > > This was a Kohler 8.5REZ, with the electric carb heater and AC charter=20 > for the starting battery. No block heater, but that could have been=20 > handled the same way. The inverter was a Magnum MS4024PAE, but that=20 > doesn't matter here. When we ran the bundle of gennie output=20 > conductors, we added a separate load circuit conductor, on its own=20 > breaker in the system E-Panel. Here's an excerpt from the original=20 > proposal description about our approach: > > The unit uses an electronic generator controller with modest > (estimated at 200-700 mA, depending on state of operation) draw on > the starting battery. This controller drops to minimal =E2=80=9Csleep= =E2=80=9D > draw automatically after 48 hours of non-operation. This generator > does not have a starting battery charging coil, but rather uses a > separate AC battery trickle charger to maintain the battery. I > will install a 20W PV module and small charge controller on the > generator to keep the starting battery charged. I will also > install the AC charger to operate whenever the generator is > running. While this combined setup has worked successfully for > other installers with whom I have spoken, if this proves > insufficient I can later add a switch and relay to allow the > charger to also operate off of inverter AC if ever needed. > > The unit also requires a built-in carburetor heater to operate > during cold weather. This heater is normally controlled by a > thermostat to conservatively come on at or below 40=C2=B0F, which wou= ld > mean that it would operate nearly continuously during Taos=E2=80=99 w= inter > months, draining the PV system. My solution is to put the > carburetor heater on a manual mechanical one-hour time switch > located at the generator; you will activate the heater through > this switch 15-30 minutes before starting the generator. > > This may not work for you. This is a modern doublewide serving as a=20 > seasonal family meeting place, rather than a full time residence. With=20 > our usual sunny winters, we figure that if nobody is there, loads are=20 > minimal, and we don't want automatic (unattended) generator operation.=20 > I think we used a DG WP box inside the generator enclosure, with a=20 > mechanical timer (maybe one-hour) controlling a GFCI receptacle, with=20 > carb heater and battery charger plugged in. > > I hope that gives you some ideas you can use. > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > ** > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From don at energysolarnow.com Fri Apr 3 13:53:11 2015 From: don at energysolarnow.com (don at energysolarnow.com) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2015 10:53:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV step-up transformer design Message-ID: <20150403105311.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.db052093b3.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Fri Apr 3 11:11:40 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (dana at solarwork.com) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 09:11:40 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Gen preheat in cold climates In-Reply-To: <32758040-7448-480E-9E83-E520867C9F75@windstreamsolar.com> References: <32758040-7448-480E-9E83-E520867C9F75@windstreamsolar.com> Message-ID: <4E361047-1972-47DE-AB42-EB3A72B7A2D0@solarwork.com> At our high elevation installs the generator gets installed indoors with the balance of the offgrid system we utilize the heat for the room Dana Orzel 208.721.7003 Encourage Free Thinking Self Responsible Free Range Children On Apr 2, 2015, at 8:47 PM, Gary Higbee wrote: Wrenches, I'm curious what strategies you use to preheat a propane gen in cold climates. This is a large off-grid design in a sub-zero winter climate and ideal would be to turn on a block heater an hour or two in advance, then run the gen cycle. We plan to use either a Schneider XW or Outback Radian configuration (still very interested in which you'd use and why). We could set up a logic/relay system to first send the gen request to the heater for a while and then turn off and initiate a gen cycle but that would eliminate the ability for autostart on short notice. I've read of heat lamps on a thermostat, just wondering if you have seen other solutions. Thanks! Gary _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 13:56:39 2015 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 13:56:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Gen preheat in cold climates In-Reply-To: <551ED331.4000802@starlightsolar.com> References: <32758040-7448-480E-9E83-E520867C9F75@windstreamsolar.com> <551E2649.8060600@sindelarsolar.com> <551ED331.4000802@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Heating the regulator won't help if the propane is not vapourizing. You would need to heat the tank. However, you do not need to heat it very much, just enough to let it vapourize. Think about putting it somewhere with a little heat, or burying it. On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 1:51 PM, Larry wrote: > About the carb heat idea...LP is a liquid at -44°F. The liquid does not > combust, it must be vaporized. As the ambient temperature drops closer to > the LP liquid temperature, there would be a reduction in how fast liquid is > vaporizing and therefor a reduction in volume. What you need in cold > weather is enough volume to maintain at least 11" wc while cranking or > running the engine. You can test the vapor pressure with a manometer while > cranking to verify if this is the problem. > > If this is the reason the engine does not run, my thoughts are that > heating the LP regulator would be much more economical from an energy > standpoint, than heating the whole engine block. Perhaps an insulated > enclosure with silicone heaters appropriately attached would work. They are > available in many DC or AC and at various voltages. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > On 4/2/15 10:34 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > > Gary, > Mac's approach is intelligent and will work well, as an automated system > with the right hardware. We took a quite different approach on a somewhat > similar scenario in 2009. > > This was a Kohler 8.5REZ, with the electric carb heater and AC charter for > the starting battery. No block heater, but that could have been handled the > same way. The inverter was a Magnum MS4024PAE, but that doesn't matter > here. When we ran the bundle of gennie output conductors, we added a > separate load circuit conductor, on its own breaker in the system E-Panel. > Here's an excerpt from the original proposal description about our approach: > > The unit uses an electronic generator controller with modest (estimated > at 200-700 mA, depending on state of operation) draw on the starting > battery. This controller drops to minimal “sleep” draw automatically after > 48 hours of non-operation. This generator does not have a starting battery > charging coil, but rather uses a separate AC battery trickle charger to > maintain the battery. I will install a 20W PV module and small charge > controller on the generator to keep the starting battery charged. I will > also install the AC charger to operate whenever the generator is running. > While this combined setup has worked successfully for other installers with > whom I have spoken, if this proves insufficient I can later add a switch > and relay to allow the charger to also operate off of inverter AC if ever > needed. > > > > The unit also requires a built-in carburetor heater to operate during cold > weather. This heater is normally controlled by a thermostat to > conservatively come on at or below 40°F, which would mean that it would > operate nearly continuously during Taos’ winter months, draining the PV > system. My solution is to put the carburetor heater on a manual mechanical > one-hour time switch located at the generator; you will activate the heater > through this switch 15-30 minutes before starting the generator. > > This may not work for you. This is a modern doublewide serving as a > seasonal family meeting place, rather than a full time residence. With our > usual sunny winters, we figure that if nobody is there, loads are minimal, > and we don't want automatic (unattended) generator operation. I think we > used a DG WP box inside the generator enclosure, with a mechanical timer > (maybe one-hour) controlling a GFCI receptacle, with carb heater and > battery charger plugged in. > > I hope that gives you some ideas you can use. > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay at asis.com Fri Apr 3 11:45:09 2015 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 08:45:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Gen preheat in cold climates In-Reply-To: <551EAFDF.3000301@aprsworld.com> References: <32758040-7448-480E-9E83-E520867C9F75@windstreamsolar.com> <7f7dde622ccc488324976d9b7c2485e2.squirrel@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <551EAFDF.3000301@aprsworld.com> Message-ID: <0300FE6C-75B2-4D45-873F-CBDD3854AEC2@asis.com> Hi guys, I don't live in super cold. I'm curious about the block heater part. With the good synthetic oils that are thin at really cold Is the issue heating the block or battery or heating the intake for propane units? Thanks Jay Peltz power > On Apr 3, 2015, at 8:21 AM, James Jefferson Jarvis wrote: > >> On 4/3/2015 9:32 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: >> We are dealing with a generator that absolutely won't start when cold, so >> I was considering a block heater. Below 20 deg F it has proven worthless, >> and we can see -20 F on occasion. > > I had a generator like that. Below zero it wouldn't start. Replaced it's cranking battery with a bigger battery and it starts great. There are also super-capacitor based solutions to get better cranking. If you have a 24 volt system and your generator is near your battery bank, you may even be able to put a 24 volt starter on the generator and start from your battery bank. > > >> My concern is using power from a low battery on a cold cloudy day to heat >> a generator. How long does it take to make a difference? Has this method >> proven 100% reliable? > > What type and how big of engine are you talking about? How big is the block heater? My limited block heater experience with vehicles, tractors, etc is that an hour won't be enough. A couple hours is needed. With coolant heaters and fuel injected engines, an hour can actually cause problems. A pocket of coolant gets warm and tricks the engine management computer into thinking the coolant is warm. Then it tries to do a warm start and fails. > > Getting a generator that starts reliably is the best solution I see for a moderate sized off grid installation. Otherwise you are putting a lot of energy into warming up an engine that might not start. And leaving you in a worse situation than you started. > > -James Jefferson Jarvis > APRS World, LLC > +1-507-454-2727 > www.aprsworld.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 14:47:02 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 08:47:02 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Gen preheat in cold climates In-Reply-To: <32758040-7448-480E-9E83-E520867C9F75@windstreamsolar.com> References: <32758040-7448-480E-9E83-E520867C9F75@windstreamsolar.com> Message-ID: You may want to contact the gen set manufacture to see if the genny can go cold "freeze protection" at sub zero because it may be required to operate 24/7in that condition. you may be able to install a thermostat to control the block heater, this way its not always on. PS I would use the Outback products. Jerry On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 4:47 PM, Gary Higbee wrote: > Wrenches, > > I'm curious what strategies you use to preheat a propane gen in cold > climates. This is a large off-grid design in a sub-zero winter climate and > ideal would be to turn on a block heater an hour or two in advance, then > run the gen cycle. We plan to use either a Schneider XW or Outback Radian > configuration (still very interested in which you'd use and why). We could > set up a logic/relay system to first send the gen request to the heater for > a while and then turn off and initiate a gen cycle but that would eliminate > the ability for autostart on short notice. I've read of heat lamps on a > thermostat, just wondering if you have seen other solutions. > > Thanks! > > Gary > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reellison at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 14:51:27 2015 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 14:51:27 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Gen preheat in cold climates In-Reply-To: <0300FE6C-75B2-4D45-873F-CBDD3854AEC2@asis.com> References: <32758040-7448-480E-9E83-E520867C9F75@windstreamsolar.com> <7f7dde622ccc488324976d9b7c2485e2.squirrel@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <551EAFDF.3000301@aprsworld.com> <0300FE6C-75B2-4D45-873F-CBDD3854AEC2@asis.com> Message-ID: <001901d06e3f$31be8970$953b9c50$@com> A block heater and off grid will not mix well at all. Might want to look at a "Wabasto heater" It is a mini furnace designed for over the road trucks. Reasonable on fuel and power consumption. I think it is www.webasto.com Just a thought, Bob -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay peltz Sent: Friday, April 03, 2015 11:45 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Gen preheat in cold climates Hi guys, I don't live in super cold. I'm curious about the block heater part. With the good synthetic oils that are thin at really cold Is the issue heating the block or battery or heating the intake for propane units? Thanks Jay Peltz power > On Apr 3, 2015, at 8:21 AM, James Jefferson Jarvis wrote: > >> On 4/3/2015 9:32 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: >> We are dealing with a generator that absolutely won't start when >> cold, so I was considering a block heater. Below 20 deg F it has >> proven worthless, and we can see -20 F on occasion. > > I had a generator like that. Below zero it wouldn't start. Replaced it's cranking battery with a bigger battery and it starts great. There are also super-capacitor based solutions to get better cranking. If you have a 24 volt system and your generator is near your battery bank, you may even be able to put a 24 volt starter on the generator and start from your battery bank. > > >> My concern is using power from a low battery on a cold cloudy day to >> heat a generator. How long does it take to make a difference? Has >> this method proven 100% reliable? > > What type and how big of engine are you talking about? How big is the block heater? My limited block heater experience with vehicles, tractors, etc is that an hour won't be enough. A couple hours is needed. With coolant heaters and fuel injected engines, an hour can actually cause problems. A pocket of coolant gets warm and tricks the engine management computer into thinking the coolant is warm. Then it tries to do a warm start and fails. > > Getting a generator that starts reliably is the best solution I see for a moderate sized off grid installation. Otherwise you are putting a lot of energy into warming up an engine that might not start. And leaving you in a worse situation than you started. > > -James Jefferson Jarvis > APRS World, LLC > +1-507-454-2727 > www.aprsworld.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From larry at starlightsolar.com Fri Apr 3 15:22:57 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Larry) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2015 12:22:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Gen preheat in cold climates In-Reply-To: References: <32758040-7448-480E-9E83-E520867C9F75@windstreamsolar.com> <551E2649.8060600@sindelarsolar.com> <551ED331.4000802@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <551EE891.6010700@starlightsolar.com> Hi Chris, LP will boil (vaporize) at -44° so until your ambient temperature is below that it is vaporizing. Heating the tank will increase the liquid and vapor pressure in the tank but it is still liquid, not vapor, that is plumbed to a cold regulator, or vaporizer if they have one, where the vaporization takes place for the engine. I can't see that increase tank temperature would solve the issue. In 1981 I bought a truck with dual fuel capability. The J-valve regulator had liquid heater lines from the coolant system to heat the LP liquid at the point of vaporization. The tank was in the bed and never heated. In very cold weather I had to start the engine on gas then switch to LP after hot water hit the regulator. All worked well with a warm regulator. Larry On 4/3/15 10:56 AM, Chris Mason wrote: > Heating the regulator won't help if the propane is not vapourizing. > You would need to heat the tank. > However, you do not need to heat it very much, just enough to let it > vapourize. Think about putting it somewhere with a little heat, or > burying it. > > On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 1:51 PM, Larry > wrote: > > About the carb heat idea...LP is a liquid at -44°F. The liquid > does not combust, it must be vaporized. As the ambient temperature > drops closer to the LP liquid temperature, there would be a > reduction in how fast liquid is vaporizing and therefor a > reduction in volume. What you need in cold weather is enough > volume to maintain at least 11" wc while cranking or running the > engine. You can test the vapor pressure with a manometer while > cranking to verify if this is the problem. > > If this is the reason the engine does not run, my thoughts are > that heating the LP regulator would be much more economical from > an energy standpoint, than heating the whole engine block. Perhaps > an insulated enclosure with silicone heaters appropriately > attached would work. They are available in many DC or AC and at > various voltages. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Fri Apr 3 15:42:36 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Larry) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2015 12:42:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Gen preheat in cold climates In-Reply-To: References: <32758040-7448-480E-9E83-E520867C9F75@windstreamsolar.com> <551E2649.8060600@sindelarsolar.com> <551ED331.4000802@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <551EED2C.30508@starlightsolar.com> Chris, After I hit the send button, I thought about how a small generator or gas grill will use tank pressure through a vapor regulator. If this generator is plumbed that way, there lies a problem that your solution of heating the tank will work with. Personally I would not plumb a generator with vapor lines from the tank, especially is it is a long distance away. Since Gary said this was a large system, I am assuming it is liquid delivery to the generator. Gary, is the LP to the generator vapor or liquid from the tank? Larry On 4/3/15 10:56 AM, Chris Mason wrote: > Heating the regulator won't help if the propane is not vapourizing. > You would need to heat the tank. > However, you do not need to heat it very much, just enough to let it > vapourize. Think about putting it somewhere with a little heat, or > burying it. > > On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 1:51 PM, Larry > wrote: > > About the carb heat idea...LP is a liquid at -44°F. The liquid > does not combust, it must be vaporized. As the ambient temperature > drops closer to the LP liquid temperature, there would be a > reduction in how fast liquid is vaporizing and therefor a > reduction in volume. What you need in cold weather is enough > volume to maintain at least 11" wc while cranking or running the > engine. You can test the vapor pressure with a manometer while > cranking to verify if this is the problem. > > If this is the reason the engine does not run, my thoughts are > that heating the LP regulator would be much more economical from > an energy standpoint, than heating the whole engine block. Perhaps > an insulated enclosure with silicone heaters appropriately > attached would work. They are available in many DC or AC and at > various voltages. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Fri Apr 3 16:23:08 2015 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 14:23:08 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Gen preheat in cold climates In-Reply-To: <4E361047-1972-47DE-AB42-EB3A72B7A2D0@solarwork.com> References: <32758040-7448-480E-9E83-E520867C9F75@windstreamsolar.com> <4E361047-1972-47DE-AB42-EB3A72B7A2D0@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <9D5487BC-52B5-4FD3-A9C6-D15596BDC06F@skyfireenergy.com> Hi Dana, I have an off-grid client (central/northern Alberta) who tried this but the heat from the gen would shut down the magnum inverter due to over temp. This was in an enclosed room (~15'x15') in a much larger shop. The gen was being exhausted outside but it was an air-cooled unit, so blew a lot of heat. He ended up modifying it so the hot air was blown "up" thru the gens enclosure cover (rather than down) and from the ceiling he hung a heavy duty tarp/welding blanket around the gen with an exhaust fan above on the ceiling that operated on a thermostat. Was a great work-around to the overheating issue of having the gen inside. Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 > On Apr 3, 2015, at 9:11 AM, "dana at solarwork.com" wrote: > > At our high elevation installs the generator gets installed indoors with the balance of the offgrid system we utilize the heat for the room > > Dana Orzel 208.721.7003 > Encourage Free Thinking Self Responsible Free Range Children > > On Apr 2, 2015, at 8:47 PM, Gary Higbee wrote: > > Wrenches, > > I'm curious what strategies you use to preheat a propane gen in cold climates. This is a large off-grid design in a sub-zero winter climate and ideal would be to turn on a block heater an hour or two in advance, then run the gen cycle. We plan to use either a Schneider XW or Outback Radian configuration (still very interested in which you'd use and why). We could set up a logic/relay system to first send the gen request to the heater for a while and then turn off and initiate a gen cycle but that would eliminate the ability for autostart on short notice. I've read of heat lamps on a thermostat, just wondering if you have seen other solutions. > > Thanks! > > Gary > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From august at luminalt.com Fri Apr 3 19:02:57 2015 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 16:02:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV step-up transformer design In-Reply-To: <7010DA9F-54AD-477E-B855-6DEC65CF890A@whidbeysunwind.com> References: <7010DA9F-54AD-477E-B855-6DEC65CF890A@whidbeysunwind.com> Message-ID: <76eb7d90b0e255ac14de0402308bb0c7@mail.gmail.com> Hi Kelly, Sounds like a doozey. As others have posted, it sounds like an imbalance issue. However, it might be possible to solve the problem without replacing the major equipment (could just be wire size, phasing, fuses, etc?). Do you have a single line diagram you can share? Best, August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind *Sent:* Thursday, April 02, 2015 3:19 PM *To:* RE Wrenches listserve *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] PV step-up transformer design Wrenches, We have issues with a 1-1/2 year old 25 kW grid-tied PV system utilizing 2 step up transformers from the array to grid. Actually it’s two identical, 12.5 kW systems (for incentive and financing reasons) on each transformer. Note that the inverter size and voltage selection was also dictated by incentives. Each of the two systems are designed as follows: - 3, 3.8 kW, 240 Vac inverters (16A max output current) across each phase of the 240V, 3-ph Delta primary of a 15 kVA transformer. Each inverter 1-ph output has a fused disconnect. The output of all three inverters is combined into 3 phase delta configuration with terminal blocks before the transformer. Other than the inverter AC disconnects there is no OCPD on the 3-ph primary side of the transformer. - Transformer secondary to grid is 277/480 wye. The secondary output has two fused disconnects (one at each end of the 600-ft run between array and line-side connection) each with 20-A fuses. After more than year of operation we noticed one inverter, in one of the two identical systems, was down (monitoring showed it happened past December), indicating a grid problem. One fuse (of the 3) in the secondary (grid-side) fused disco had blown. Replaced that fuse, but then 2 fuses at the disconnect near the meter, 600 feet away, popped. Systematic checking of the system reveals no shorted conductors, but a problem at the transformer. Close inspection revealed that the insulation on our 90˚C neutral conductor had slightly melted where it touched the X-O neutral wire of the transformer (the splice looked fine). Now it gets more interesting…. In the last week, while troubleshooting the first 12.5 kW system, its adjacent twin system had an inverter quit with a ground-fault error (these inverters commonly will display ground fault errors for other reasons). One of the 20A fuses in the secondary (grid 277/480) side had popped. And, yup, the neutral wire had signs of overheating. We shut all three inverters down in that system. The transformer doesn’t seem damaged, hopefully because we caught it in time. But we’re looking at a replacement transformer for the first system. Here’s what we think may have happened: The grid went down and, on coming back on, the in-rush current to the secondary side of the transformer popped a (undersized) fuse, taking out one leg of the 480. One inverter on the primary side saw a bad grid and dropped out, but the other two connected and kept producing. This unbalanced production resulted in the neutral of the secondary wye (grid) side of the transformer, being overloaded. Over 3 months this unbalanced operation damaged the transformer. Initially we replaced the fuses near the line-connection with 60A (it’s a hot-swap and we don’t want those to go again unless the conductors need it), and the fuses near the array transformer secondary with 30A, thinking that will handle the inrush current to the transformer after a grid outage better than the 20A fuses. However, after a lot of discussion, research, and consideration of the risk (of replacing another transformer) we’re wondering if we need to alter the design more substantially. The main design change we’re considering is to replace the fused disconnect on the secondary side with a 3-phase breaker, that will shut off all phases of the grid supply simultaneously in case of an over-current fault. But, what if one inverter just plain quits and that breaker stays on? Will the neutral on the secondary still be overloaded from the other two? Other changes we’re pondering include: - Do we need a ganged 3-ph breaker on the inverter side, so that all three inverters go off at once? This will only be useful in case of over current on an inverter output, which isn’t likely, and is now addressed with the fused 240 AC 1-ph disconnects on the inverter outputs. - Use a step-down transformer in reverse. I.E. use a 277/480 wye primary and 240 delta secondary and back feed the secondary with the PV. Some info from other sources suggest that this will reduce the inrush current from the grid after an outage. I think this would be inefficient at transmitting the PV power. - Can/should we remove the neutral connection to the transformer on the secondary side? There are no 277 loads or sources. - Can/should we put OCP on the neutral to the transformer? Your suggestions and experience will be appreciated. This has additional importance as we are preparing to install another 75 kW at the same site utilizing 240Vac inverters to the 277/480 grid. Thanks, -Kelly Kelly Keilwitz, P.E. Principal Whidbey Sun & Wind Renewable Energy Systems NABCEP PV Installation Professional WA Electrical Administrator kelly at whidbeysunwind.com PH & FAX: 360.678.7131 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Fri Apr 3 19:32:06 2015 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 19:32:06 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Gen preheat in cold climates In-Reply-To: <551EAFDF.3000301@aprsworld.com> References: <32758040-7448-480E-9E83-E520867C9F75@windstreamsolar.com> <7f7dde622ccc488324976d9b7c2485e2.squirrel@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <551EAFDF.3000301@aprsworld.com> Message-ID: We have installed many low ambient temp propane genset and here are a few suggestions. I would recommend underground 1k propane tank this allows constant 50* temp improves the evap rate of liquid propane and prevents fuel starvation /lean burn conditions due to low evap rates. Primary reg set for 10 lbs if the unit is say over 100' (this is calculated BTU consumption@ full load and pipe size,) then secondary regulator inside of gen shed with the vent of regulator outside. Zero synthetic weight oil and dual HD crank batteries. In severe climes there are times when a battery heater mounted close to the gen offers enough heat to aid in block heating. We also have installed electric louvered vents controlled by a thermostat. The Gen wizard also has inputs for low starter battery voltage start settings, additionally there start on low water/block, low gen room start temps to. Sometimes we have reset the gen start attempts from 3 to 5. Propane in the ground would be my first recommendation then syn oil and dual batteries. On Apr 3, 2015, at 11:21 AM, James Jefferson Jarvis wrote: > On 4/3/2015 9:32 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: >> We are dealing with a generator that absolutely won't start when cold, so >> I was considering a block heater. Below 20 deg F it has proven worthless, >> and we can see -20 F on occasion. > > I had a generator like that. Below zero it wouldn't start. Replaced it's cranking battery with a bigger battery and it starts great. There are also super-capacitor based solutions to get better cranking. If you have a 24 volt system and your generator is near your battery bank, you may even be able to put a 24 volt starter on the generator and start from your battery bank. > > >> My concern is using power from a low battery on a cold cloudy day to heat >> a generator. How long does it take to make a difference? Has this method >> proven 100% reliable? > > What type and how big of engine are you talking about? How big is the block heater? My limited block heater experience with vehicles, tractors, etc is that an hour won't be enough. A couple hours is needed. With coolant heaters and fuel injected engines, an hour can actually cause problems. A pocket of coolant gets warm and tricks the engine management computer into thinking the coolant is warm. Then it tries to do a warm start and fails. > > Getting a generator that starts reliably is the best solution I see for a moderate sized off grid installation. Otherwise you are putting a lot of energy into warming up an engine that might not start. And leaving you in a worse situation than you started. > > -James Jefferson Jarvis > APRS World, LLC > +1-507-454-2727 > www.aprsworld.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 19:38:15 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 13:38:15 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV step-up transformer design In-Reply-To: <76eb7d90b0e255ac14de0402308bb0c7@mail.gmail.com> References: <7010DA9F-54AD-477E-B855-6DEC65CF890A@whidbeysunwind.com> <76eb7d90b0e255ac14de0402308bb0c7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Wrenches We just had a utility side issue that had the same transfomer damage on only neutral wire. This was a larger 3/0 inverter 333 k but the utility may be a direction to look at. This was one of three systems, none of the others showed damage either. There should be next to nothing on that wire with 240 volt inverters. Jerry On Apr 3, 2015 1:03 PM, "August Goers" wrote: > Hi Kelly, > > > > Sounds like a doozey. As others have posted, it sounds like an imbalance > issue. However, it might be possible to solve the problem without replacing > the major equipment (could just be wire size, phasing, fuses, etc?). Do you > have a single line diagram you can share? > > > > Best, > > > > August > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind > *Sent:* Thursday, April 02, 2015 3:19 PM > *To:* RE Wrenches listserve > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] PV step-up transformer design > > > > Wrenches, > > We have issues with a 1-1/2 year old 25 kW grid-tied PV system utilizing 2 > step up transformers from the array to grid. Actually it’s two identical, > 12.5 kW systems (for incentive and financing reasons) on each transformer. > Note that the inverter size and voltage selection was also dictated by > incentives. Each of the two systems are designed as follows: > > > > - 3, 3.8 kW, 240 Vac inverters (16A max output current) across each phase > of the 240V, 3-ph Delta primary of a 15 kVA transformer. Each inverter 1-ph > output has a fused disconnect. The output of all three inverters is > combined into 3 phase delta configuration with terminal blocks before the > transformer. Other than the inverter AC disconnects there is no OCPD on the > 3-ph primary side of the transformer. > > > > - Transformer secondary to grid is 277/480 wye. The secondary output has > two fused disconnects (one at each end of the 600-ft run between array and > line-side connection) each with 20-A fuses. > > > > After more than year of operation we noticed one inverter, in one of the > two identical systems, was down (monitoring showed it happened past > December), indicating a grid problem. One fuse (of the 3) in the secondary > (grid-side) fused disco had blown. Replaced that fuse, but then 2 fuses at > the disconnect near the meter, 600 feet away, popped. > > > > Systematic checking of the system reveals no shorted conductors, but a > problem at the transformer. Close inspection revealed that the insulation > on our 90˚C neutral conductor had slightly melted where it touched the X-O > neutral wire of the transformer (the splice looked fine). Now it gets more > interesting…. > > > > In the last week, while troubleshooting the first 12.5 kW system, its > adjacent twin system had an inverter quit with a ground-fault error (these > inverters commonly will display ground fault errors for other reasons). One > of the 20A fuses in the secondary (grid 277/480) side had popped. And, yup, > the neutral wire had signs of overheating. We shut all three inverters down > in that system. The transformer doesn’t seem damaged, hopefully because we > caught it in time. But we’re looking at a replacement transformer for the > first system. > > > > Here’s what we think may have happened: The grid went down and, on coming > back on, the in-rush current to the secondary side of the transformer > popped a (undersized) fuse, taking out one leg of the 480. One inverter on > the primary side saw a bad grid and dropped out, but the other two > connected and kept producing. This unbalanced production resulted in the > neutral of the secondary wye (grid) side of the transformer, being > overloaded. Over 3 months this unbalanced operation damaged the transformer. > > > > Initially we replaced the fuses near the line-connection with 60A (it’s a > hot-swap and we don’t want those to go again unless the conductors need > it), and the fuses near the array transformer secondary with 30A, thinking > that will handle the inrush current to the transformer after a grid outage > better than the 20A fuses. However, after a lot of discussion, research, > and consideration of the risk (of replacing another transformer) we’re > wondering if we need to alter the design more substantially. > > > > The main design change we’re considering is to replace the fused > disconnect on the secondary side with a 3-phase breaker, that will shut off > all phases of the grid supply simultaneously in case of an over-current > fault. But, what if one inverter just plain quits and that breaker stays > on? Will the neutral on the secondary still be overloaded from the other > two? > > Other changes we’re pondering include: > > - Do we need a ganged 3-ph breaker on the inverter side, so that all three > inverters go off at once? This will only be useful in case of over current > on an inverter output, which isn’t likely, and is now addressed with the > fused 240 AC 1-ph disconnects on the inverter outputs. > > - Use a step-down transformer in reverse. I.E. use a 277/480 wye primary > and 240 delta secondary and back feed the secondary with the PV. Some info > from other sources suggest that this will reduce the inrush current from > the grid after an outage. I think this would be inefficient at transmitting > the PV power. > > - Can/should we remove the neutral connection to the transformer on the > secondary side? There are no 277 loads or sources. > > - Can/should we put OCP on the neutral to the transformer? > > > > Your suggestions and experience will be appreciated. This has additional > importance as we are preparing to install another 75 kW at the same site > utilizing 240Vac inverters to the 277/480 grid. > > > > Thanks, > > -Kelly > > > > Kelly Keilwitz, P.E. > Principal > Whidbey Sun & Wind > Renewable Energy Systems > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > WA Electrical Administrator > kelly at whidbeysunwind.com > PH & FAX: 360.678.7131 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Fri Apr 3 19:42:15 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2015 17:42:15 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Gen preheat in cold climates In-Reply-To: <20150403085600.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.0b28a2006f.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> References: <20150403085600.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.0b28a2006f.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <551F2557.4000202@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 25138 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dana at solarwork.com Fri Apr 3 19:03:29 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 17:03:29 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Gen preheat in cold climates In-Reply-To: <9D5487BC-52B5-4FD3-A9C6-D15596BDC06F@skyfireenergy.com> References: <32758040-7448-480E-9E83-E520867C9F75@windstreamsolar.com> <4E361047-1972-47DE-AB42-EB3A72B7A2D0@solarwork.com> <9D5487BC-52B5-4FD3-A9C6-D15596BDC06F@skyfireenergy.com> Message-ID: <001501d06e62$66de7610$349b6230$@com> My apologies for the brief response I was on the road. There are two options I have done. I normally try to get batteries stored in a heated room, so adding the gen if there is room there is an initial easy fix. We vent the exhaust air with a motorized louvered damper controlled by a room thermostat( located up high in the room opening around 90 deg F. Until the air is dumped outdoors it outdoors there is a spring loaded bypass door to dump the heated cooling air in the room. Most decent sheet metal shop can assist you in this setup. I have also tapped the glycol coolant on the gen and via a heat exchanger run heat thru the radiant floor slab to heat the entire room and again this was controlled for overheat. We did not use the gen heat till the unit was up to temp and then the floor pump cycled on and off till the return water was stable. A 4-6 hour run can totally heat a decent sized shed with an insulated concrete 6" slab. Rodents like this one best! __________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc -  NABCEP # 051112-136 dana at solarwork.com  - www.solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253    F - 970.626.4140   c - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Benn Kilburn Sent: Friday, April 03, 2015 2:23 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Gen preheat in cold climates Hi Dana, I have an off-grid client (central/northern Alberta) who tried this but the heat from the gen would shut down the magnum inverter due to over temp. This was in an enclosed room (~15'x15') in a much larger shop. The gen was being exhausted outside but it was an air-cooled unit, so blew a lot of heat. He ended up modifying it so the hot air was blown "up" thru the gens enclosure cover (rather than down) and from the ceiling he hung a heavy duty tarp/welding blanket around the gen with an exhaust fan above on the ceiling that operated on a thermostat. Was a great work-around to the overheating issue of having the gen inside. Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 > On Apr 3, 2015, at 9:11 AM, "dana at solarwork.com" wrote: > > At our high elevation installs the generator gets installed indoors with the balance of the offgrid system we utilize the heat for the room > > Dana Orzel 208.721.7003 > Encourage Free Thinking Self Responsible Free Range Children > > On Apr 2, 2015, at 8:47 PM, Gary Higbee wrote: > > Wrenches, > > I'm curious what strategies you use to preheat a propane gen in cold climates. This is a large off-grid design in a sub-zero winter climate and ideal would be to turn on a block heater an hour or two in advance, then run the gen cycle. We plan to use either a Schneider XW or Outback Radian configuration (still very interested in which you'd use and why). We could set up a logic/relay system to first send the gen request to the heater for a while and then turn off and initiate a gen cycle but that would eliminate the ability for autostart on short notice. I've read of heat lamps on a thermostat, just wondering if you have seen other solutions. > > Thanks! > > Gary > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Fri Apr 3 21:56:11 2015 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 18:56:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Gen preheat in cold climates Message-ID: We have successfully plumbed in RV-style hot water heaters with tiny tanks in them, and set the thermostat to kick in at -20C (or whatever is required). Locating the hot water heater on the floor beside the generator it thermosiphons. One site has been working like this for 8 years unattended and buried in snow all winter long. An improvement on this would be tied to SOC or battery voltage so the heater only kicks in when there is a probability of requiring generator use. That would save some propane. Alternative is a similar idea but using Webasto diesel heaters for trucks in a similar manner. We've not had long-term success with any manner of using electric block heaters, uses too much power, or takes too long to warm up. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of Gary Higbee Sent: April 2, 2015 6:48 PM To: RE-wrenches at lists.RE-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Gen preheat in cold climates Wrenches, I'm curious what strategies you use to preheat a propane gen in cold climates. This is a large off-grid design in a sub-zero winter climate and ideal would be to turn on a block heater an hour or two in advance, then run the gen cycle. We plan to use either a Schneider XW or Outback Radian configuration (still very interested in which you'd use and why). We could set up a logic/relay system to first send the gen request to the heater for a while and then turn off and initiate a gen cycle but that would eliminate the ability for autostart on short notice. I've read of heat lamps on a thermostat, just wondering if you have seen other solutions. Thanks! Gary _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From maclewis1 at gmail.com Sat Apr 4 12:52:13 2015 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2015 10:52:13 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ABB solar pump drive Message-ID: Hello wrenches, Does anyone have experience using ABBs solar pump drive (ACS355)? I am looking to specify one of these, but have never worked with them. They appear to make any pump with asynchronous motors and permanent magnet motors solar compatible. If anyone has any training documents, or know of an expert that I could talk with, I would appreciate it. Thanks -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Apr 5 13:50:57 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2015 10:50:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Heat exchangers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Hi all I'm looking for information on heat exchangers for the following: Solar thermal connected to a salt water pool. Most heat exchangers are designed for hi temp, I'm looking for low temp. Please respond off site, Thanks, Jay Peltz power New email. Jay.peltz at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From deant at dcn.davis.ca.us Sun Apr 5 14:43:06 2015 From: deant at dcn.davis.ca.us (Dean T. Newberry) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2015 11:43:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Heat exchangers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006d01d06fd0$5b4629f0$11d27dd0$@dcn.davis.ca.us> Hi Jay, We purchase heat exchangers from Doucette Industries (800) 445-7511 They do the engineering too. As I recall we used Titanium for salt water applications. Dean T. Newberry 216 F St. #132 Davis, CA 95616 (530) 753-1900 deant at talbottsolar.com http://www.talbottsolar.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2015 10:51 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Heat exchangers Hi all I'm looking for information on heat exchangers for the following: Solar thermal connected to a salt water pool. Most heat exchangers are designed for hi temp, I'm looking for low temp. Please respond off site, Thanks, Jay Peltz power New email. Jay.peltz at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Apr 5 15:51:43 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2015 09:51:43 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Heat exchangers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jay I have used a manufacture in Richmond Ca. they are next to Heliodyne, call them i am sure they will give you the number. They are made for low temp transfer. Jerry On Apr 5, 2015 8:30 AM, "Jay" wrote: > Hi all > > > I'm looking for information on heat exchangers for the following: > > Solar thermal connected to a salt water pool. > Most heat exchangers are designed for hi temp, I'm looking for low temp. > > Please respond off site, > > Thanks, > > Jay > Peltz power > > New email. > Jay.peltz at gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tom at ecs-solar.com Sun Apr 5 19:56:58 2015 From: tom at ecs-solar.com (Tom Lane) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2015 19:56:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Heat Exchangers Topic for Swimming Pools Message-ID: Most heat exchangers for swimming pools are designed for boilers delivering 140F or 190F as a heat source based on the size and/ or the number gallons in the pool . The solution for a low temperature source like solar in order to keep the approach temperature low to the flat plate collectors ( and efficiency high ) is to use either double the number of heat exchangers recommend for the boiler or using a much larger heat exchanger ( twice the size required by a boiler for the recommend pool size ) . Make sure you use a titanium or stainless steel one designed for pool chemicals including salt water . DO NOT USE EVACUATED TUBES TO HEAT A SWIMMING POOL , ! Use selective coated flat plate collectors if the ambient air temperature is -20F to 60 F when you are heating an indoor swimming pool to less than 95F . Quality Pool Manufacturing , Aico , Triangle Tube , and Spirec are among many who make heat exchangers for swimming pools suitable for the high flow rates required by solar systems . GatorTom PS : yes they can be used for heating water for alligator farms . From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Apr 5 20:49:24 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2015 17:49:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Heat Exchangers Topic for Swimming Pools In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <19EDED9E-9975-48E3-B885-297DA9FF6019@gmail.com> Hi Tom Is your doubling of the HE an rule of thumb or is there a formula? As to system information. 510 sq ft collector 100,000 btu HE ( main problem I think) 70,000 gal pool Uncovered ( other main problem. ) The problem is that it's not getting the pool warm. Thanks for all the help and advice. Jay Peltz power Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 5, 2015, at 4:56 PM, Tom Lane wrote: > > Most heat exchangers for swimming pools are designed for boilers delivering 140F or 190F as a heat source based on the size and/ or the number gallons in the pool . The solution for a low temperature source like solar in order to keep the approach temperature low to the flat plate collectors ( and efficiency high ) is to use either double the number of heat exchangers recommend for the boiler or using a much larger heat exchanger ( twice the size required by a boiler for the recommend pool size ) . Make sure you use a titanium or stainless steel one designed for pool chemicals including salt water . DO NOT USE EVACUATED TUBES TO HEAT A SWIMMING POOL , ! Use selective coated flat plate collectors if the ambient air temperature is -20F to 60 F when you are heating an indoor swimming pool to less than 95F . Quality Pool Manufacturing , Aico , Triangle Tube , and Spirec are among many who make heat exchangers for swimming pools suitable for the high flow rates required by sol > ar systems . GatorTom PS : yes they can be used for heating water for alligator farms . > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From kelly at whidbeysunwind.com Mon Apr 6 01:05:26 2015 From: kelly at whidbeysunwind.com (Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2015 22:05:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV step-up transformer design In-Reply-To: <76eb7d90b0e255ac14de0402308bb0c7@mail.gmail.com> References: <7010DA9F-54AD-477E-B855-6DEC65CF890A@whidbeysunwind.com> <76eb7d90b0e255ac14de0402308bb0c7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi August, Yes, it’s difficult to understand what’s going on from my text description. I’ll forward a copy of the schematic to all who replied, when I get in the office tomorrow. Any wrenches lurking who’d like to look at the schematic let me know off-line. -Kelly On Apr 3, 2015, at 16:02, August Goers wrote: > Hi Kelly, > > Sounds like a doozey. As others have posted, it sounds like an imbalance issue. However, it might be possible to solve the problem without replacing the major equipment (could just be wire size, phasing, fuses, etc?). Do you have a single line diagram you can share? > > Best, > > August > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind > Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2015 3:19 PM > To: RE Wrenches listserve > Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV step-up transformer design > > Wrenches, > We have issues with a 1-1/2 year old 25 kW grid-tied PV system utilizing 2 step up transformers from the array to grid. Actually it’s two identical, 12.5 kW systems (for incentive and financing reasons) on each transformer. Note that the inverter size and voltage selection was also dictated by incentives. Each of the two systems are designed as follows: > > - 3, 3.8 kW, 240 Vac inverters (16A max output current) across each phase of the 240V, 3-ph Delta primary of a 15 kVA transformer. Each inverter 1-ph output has a fused disconnect. The output of all three inverters is combined into 3 phase delta configuration with terminal blocks before the transformer. Other than the inverter AC disconnects there is no OCPD on the 3-ph primary side of the transformer. > > - Transformer secondary to grid is 277/480 wye. The secondary output has two fused disconnects (one at each end of the 600-ft run between array and line-side connection) each with 20-A fuses. > > After more than year of operation we noticed one inverter, in one of the two identical systems, was down (monitoring showed it happened past December), indicating a grid problem. One fuse (of the 3) in the secondary (grid-side) fused disco had blown. Replaced that fuse, but then 2 fuses at the disconnect near the meter, 600 feet away, popped. > > Systematic checking of the system reveals no shorted conductors, but a problem at the transformer. Close inspection revealed that the insulation on our 90˚C neutral conductor had slightly melted where it touched the X-O neutral wire of the transformer (the splice looked fine). Now it gets more interesting…. > > In the last week, while troubleshooting the first 12.5 kW system, its adjacent twin system had an inverter quit with a ground-fault error (these inverters commonly will display ground fault errors for other reasons). One of the 20A fuses in the secondary (grid 277/480) side had popped. And, yup, the neutral wire had signs of overheating. We shut all three inverters down in that system. The transformer doesn’t seem damaged, hopefully because we caught it in time. But we’re looking at a replacement transformer for the first system. > > Here’s what we think may have happened: The grid went down and, on coming back on, the in-rush current to the secondary side of the transformer popped a (undersized) fuse, taking out one leg of the 480. One inverter on the primary side saw a bad grid and dropped out, but the other two connected and kept producing. This unbalanced production resulted in the neutral of the secondary wye (grid) side of the transformer, being overloaded. Over 3 months this unbalanced operation damaged the transformer. > > Initially we replaced the fuses near the line-connection with 60A (it’s a hot-swap and we don’t want those to go again unless the conductors need it), and the fuses near the array transformer secondary with 30A, thinking that will handle the inrush current to the transformer after a grid outage better than the 20A fuses. However, after a lot of discussion, research, and consideration of the risk (of replacing another transformer) we’re wondering if we need to alter the design more substantially. > > The main design change we’re considering is to replace the fused disconnect on the secondary side with a 3-phase breaker, that will shut off all phases of the grid supply simultaneously in case of an over-current fault. But, what if one inverter just plain quits and that breaker stays on? Will the neutral on the secondary still be overloaded from the other two? > Other changes we’re pondering include: > - Do we need a ganged 3-ph breaker on the inverter side, so that all three inverters go off at once? This will only be useful in case of over current on an inverter output, which isn’t likely, and is now addressed with the fused 240 AC 1-ph disconnects on the inverter outputs. > - Use a step-down transformer in reverse. I.E. use a 277/480 wye primary and 240 delta secondary and back feed the secondary with the PV. Some info from other sources suggest that this will reduce the inrush current from the grid after an outage. I think this would be inefficient at transmitting the PV power. > - Can/should we remove the neutral connection to the transformer on the secondary side? There are no 277 loads or sources. > - Can/should we put OCP on the neutral to the transformer? > > Your suggestions and experience will be appreciated. This has additional importance as we are preparing to install another 75 kW at the same site utilizing 240Vac inverters to the 277/480 grid. > > Thanks, > -Kelly > > Kelly Keilwitz, P.E. > Principal > Whidbey Sun & Wind > Renewable Energy Systems > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > WA Electrical Administrator > kelly at whidbeysunwind.com > PH & FAX: 360.678.7131 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kelly at whidbeysunwind.com Mon Apr 6 01:16:22 2015 From: kelly at whidbeysunwind.com (Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2015 22:16:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV step-up transformer design In-Reply-To: References: <7010DA9F-54AD-477E-B855-6DEC65CF890A@whidbeysunwind.com> <76eb7d90b0e255ac14de0402308bb0c7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Jerry, A utility-side cause is a suspicion for our system issue, especially after a year and a half of operation. However, in our case the little 15 kVA step-up transformers are between the inverters and the main utility inverter for this facility. Our design should be robust enough to handle whatever the utility throws at it. With the neutral between the 15 kVA 277/480 secondary and the utility transformer doing nothing I’m leaning toward disconnecting it - unless any of you see a problem with doing so. -Kelly Kelly Keilwitz, P.E. Principal Whidbey Sun & Wind Renewable Energy Systems NABCEP PV Installation Professional WA Electrical Administrator kelly at whidbeysunwind.com PH & FAX: 360.678.7131 On Apr 3, 2015, at 16:38, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches > > We just had a utility side issue that had the same transfomer damage on only neutral wire. This was a larger 3/0 inverter 333 k but the utility may be a direction to look at. This was one of three systems, none of the others showed damage either. There should be next to nothing on that wire with 240 volt inverters. > Jerry > > On Apr 3, 2015 1:03 PM, "August Goers" wrote: > Hi Kelly, > > > Sounds like a doozey. As others have posted, it sounds like an imbalance issue. However, it might be possible to solve the problem without replacing the major equipment (could just be wire size, phasing, fuses, etc?). Do you have a single line diagram you can share? > > > Best, > > > August > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind > Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2015 3:19 PM > To: RE Wrenches listserve > Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV step-up transformer design > > > Wrenches, > > We have issues with a 1-1/2 year old 25 kW grid-tied PV system utilizing 2 step up transformers from the array to grid. Actually it’s two identical, 12.5 kW systems (for incentive and financing reasons) on each transformer. Note that the inverter size and voltage selection was also dictated by incentives. Each of the two systems are designed as follows: > > > - 3, 3.8 kW, 240 Vac inverters (16A max output current) across each phase of the 240V, 3-ph Delta primary of a 15 kVA transformer. Each inverter 1-ph output has a fused disconnect. The output of all three inverters is combined into 3 phase delta configuration with terminal blocks before the transformer. Other than the inverter AC disconnects there is no OCPD on the 3-ph primary side of the transformer. > > > - Transformer secondary to grid is 277/480 wye. The secondary output has two fused disconnects (one at each end of the 600-ft run between array and line-side connection) each with 20-A fuses. > > > After more than year of operation we noticed one inverter, in one of the two identical systems, was down (monitoring showed it happened past December), indicating a grid problem. One fuse (of the 3) in the secondary (grid-side) fused disco had blown. Replaced that fuse, but then 2 fuses at the disconnect near the meter, 600 feet away, popped. > > > Systematic checking of the system reveals no shorted conductors, but a problem at the transformer. Close inspection revealed that the insulation on our 90˚C neutral conductor had slightly melted where it touched the X-O neutral wire of the transformer (the splice looked fine). Now it gets more interesting…. > > > In the last week, while troubleshooting the first 12.5 kW system, its adjacent twin system had an inverter quit with a ground-fault error (these inverters commonly will display ground fault errors for other reasons). One of the 20A fuses in the secondary (grid 277/480) side had popped. And, yup, the neutral wire had signs of overheating. We shut all three inverters down in that system. The transformer doesn’t seem damaged, hopefully because we caught it in time. But we’re looking at a replacement transformer for the first system. > > > Here’s what we think may have happened: The grid went down and, on coming back on, the in-rush current to the secondary side of the transformer popped a (undersized) fuse, taking out one leg of the 480. One inverter on the primary side saw a bad grid and dropped out, but the other two connected and kept producing. This unbalanced production resulted in the neutral of the secondary wye (grid) side of the transformer, being overloaded. Over 3 months this unbalanced operation damaged the transformer. > > > Initially we replaced the fuses near the line-connection with 60A (it’s a hot-swap and we don’t want those to go again unless the conductors need it), and the fuses near the array transformer secondary with 30A, thinking that will handle the inrush current to the transformer after a grid outage better than the 20A fuses. However, after a lot of discussion, research, and consideration of the risk (of replacing another transformer) we’re wondering if we need to alter the design more substantially. > > > The main design change we’re considering is to replace the fused disconnect on the secondary side with a 3-phase breaker, that will shut off all phases of the grid supply simultaneously in case of an over-current fault. But, what if one inverter just plain quits and that breaker stays on? Will the neutral on the secondary still be overloaded from the other two? > > Other changes we’re pondering include: > > - Do we need a ganged 3-ph breaker on the inverter side, so that all three inverters go off at once? This will only be useful in case of over current on an inverter output, which isn’t likely, and is now addressed with the fused 240 AC 1-ph disconnects on the inverter outputs. > > - Use a step-down transformer in reverse. I.E. use a 277/480 wye primary and 240 delta secondary and back feed the secondary with the PV. Some info from other sources suggest that this will reduce the inrush current from the grid after an outage. I think this would be inefficient at transmitting the PV power. > > - Can/should we remove the neutral connection to the transformer on the secondary side? There are no 277 loads or sources. > > - Can/should we put OCP on the neutral to the transformer? > > > Your suggestions and experience will be appreciated. This has additional importance as we are preparing to install another 75 kW at the same site utilizing 240Vac inverters to the 277/480 grid. > > > Thanks, > > -Kelly > > > Kelly Keilwitz, P.E. > Principal > Whidbey Sun & Wind > Renewable Energy Systems > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > WA Electrical Administrator > kelly at whidbeysunwind.com > PH & FAX: 360.678.7131 > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 09:01:11 2015 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 09:01:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Heat exchangers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jay, we build solar pool heaters from PVC mats, I'm sure you have seen them. https://www.dropbox.com/s/pwk8c1pv3xu1qs0/2015-03-25%2014.56.28.jpg?dl=0 You could put one system on a roof to heat the water and another in the pool of water, on the bottom, to transfer the heat. The material is impervious to salt water. All you would have to do is circulate the water. As it is unglazed, the systems work best to transfer small temperature differences to large amounts of water (swimming pools, for example.) But there is no reason it would not work for other uses. On Sun, Apr 5, 2015 at 1:50 PM, Jay wrote: > Hi all > > > I'm looking for information on heat exchangers for the following: > > Solar thermal connected to a salt water pool. > Most heat exchangers are designed for hi temp, I'm looking for low temp. > > Please respond off site, > > Thanks, > > Jay > Peltz power > > New email. > Jay.peltz at gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Gary at IcarusSolarServices.com Mon Apr 6 12:33:11 2015 From: Gary at IcarusSolarServices.com (Gary Willett) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 11:33:11 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Heat Exchangers Topic for Swimming Pools In-Reply-To: <19EDED9E-9975-48E3-B885-297DA9FF6019@gmail.com> References: <19EDED9E-9975-48E3-B885-297DA9FF6019@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3AD60495-D12E-46A2-B2B4-95AF67C740CC@IcarusSolarServices.com> 1 BTU = energy required to heat 1 lb of water 1 degree F in 1 hour 1 gallon of water = 8.34 lbs @ 62F 15000 gal water = 125,100 lbs A 100 kBTU heater would heat the pool about 0.7F per hour. Sent from my iPhone 5s > On Apr 5, 2015, at 7:49 PM, Jay wrote: > > Hi Tom > > Is your doubling of the HE an rule of thumb or is there a formula? > > As to system information. > 510 sq ft collector > 100,000 btu HE ( main problem I think) > 70,000 gal pool > Uncovered ( other main problem. ) > > The problem is that it's not getting the pool warm. > > Thanks for all the help and advice. > > Jay > Peltz power > > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Apr 5, 2015, at 4:56 PM, Tom Lane wrote: >> >> Most heat exchangers for swimming pools are designed for boilers delivering 140F or 190F as a heat source based on the size and/ or the number gallons in the pool . The solution for a low temperature source like solar in order to keep the approach temperature low to the flat plate collectors ( and efficiency high ) is to use either double the number of heat exchangers recommend for the boiler or using a much larger heat exchanger ( twice the size required by a boiler for the recommend pool size ) . Make sure you use a titanium or stainless steel one designed for pool chemicals including salt water . DO NOT USE EVACUATED TUBES TO HEAT A SWIMMING POOL , ! Use selective coated flat plate collectors if the ambient air temperature is -20F to 60 F when you are heating an indoor swimming pool to less than 95F . Quality Pool Manufacturing , Aico , Triangle Tube , and Spirec are among many who make heat exchangers for swimming pools suitable for the high flow rates required by s > ol >> ar systems . GatorTom PS : yes they can be used for heating water for alligator farms . >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Apr 6 13:12:05 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 13:12:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Heat Exchangers Topic for Swimming Pools In-Reply-To: <19EDED9E-9975-48E3-B885-297DA9FF6019@gmail.com> References: <19EDED9E-9975-48E3-B885-297DA9FF6019@gmail.com> Message-ID: Unglazed solar pool heaters are typically sized based on surface area, not gallons, because most of the heat loss occurs at the surface. They are rated in daily BTU output, but the test condition rating can be deceiving. You are really trying to overcome the loss of heat in the long-term, not heat a particular volume of water. The amount of heating you need varies with the weather, which causes the heat loss. 70k gallons is a very big pool. Sounds like your pool is probably about 2000 sq ft. In sunny SW Florida we shoot for 100% of the surface area. I'm not sure if we are talking about an unglazed collector, but 25% coverage isn't going to put an appreciable dent in the heating needs. There are other sources of potential heat loss, like trenched feed and return plumbing, low flow rates, features like waterfalls, spillovers, and fountains, and others. You may want to look at the Florida Solar Energy Center (FSEC) resources for solar pool heating: http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/en/consumer/solar_hot_water/pools/sizing.htm Jason Szumlanski On Sun, Apr 5, 2015 at 8:49 PM, Jay wrote: > Hi Tom > > Is your doubling of the HE an rule of thumb or is there a formula? > > As to system information. > 510 sq ft collector > 100,000 btu HE ( main problem I think) > 70,000 gal pool > Uncovered ( other main problem. ) > > The problem is that it's not getting the pool warm. > > Thanks for all the help and advice. > > Jay > Peltz power > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Apr 5, 2015, at 4:56 PM, Tom Lane wrote: > > > > Most heat exchangers for swimming pools are designed for boilers > delivering 140F or 190F as a heat source based on the size and/ or the > number gallons in the pool . The solution for a low temperature source like > solar in order to keep the approach temperature low to the flat plate > collectors ( and efficiency high ) is to use either double the number of > heat exchangers recommend for the boiler or using a much larger heat > exchanger ( twice the size required by a boiler for the recommend pool > size ) . Make sure you use a titanium or stainless steel one designed for > pool chemicals including salt water . DO NOT USE EVACUATED TUBES TO HEAT A > SWIMMING POOL , ! Use selective coated flat plate collectors if the ambient > air temperature is -20F to 60 F when you are heating an indoor swimming > pool to less than 95F . Quality Pool Manufacturing , Aico , Triangle Tube > , and Spirec are among many who make heat exchangers for swimming pools > suitable for the high flow rates required by s > ol > > ar systems . GatorTom PS : yes they can be used for heating water for > alligator farms . > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Apr 8 13:28:13 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (william at millersolar.com) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2015 10:28:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW2048 for sale Message-ID: <051901d07221$645bcf10$2d136d30$@millersolar.com> Friends: I am selling a Xantrex XW2048 on eBay. If you are interested, the item number is 261843216511. If you have any questions, reply off list, of course. William Gradient Cap_mini Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mick at abrahamsolar.com Wed Apr 8 16:15:10 2015 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2015 14:15:10 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How can I calculate ROI when the kWh rate varies through the day? Message-ID: Hello, Mechanix~ A client requested a pure grid tie PV quote and of course I wish to help him project ROI return on investment. PV Watts only allows a single value to be keyed for the cents per kilowatt-hour, but my customer is on a TOU "time of use" billing program, so from 1 P.M. to 5 P.M. the value of his generated power is ~50% of the value during all other sunny hours. Is there a more sophisticated ROI calculation tool that allows $0.xx per kilowatt hour for one time interval then $0.yy in for a different time interval? This particular situation then also needs $0.zz for a third interval to get an accurate projection. The rooftop is skewed to the east so that skews the power delivery to benefit those hours before the value per kilowatt hour drops, so the ideal ROI tool would factor in that non-180 degree azimuth orientation, roof pitch etc. If I can think of any way to make this question more complicated, I'll post a follow up (!) Thanks in advance. The Wrench List is da bomb! Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Voice: 970-731-4675 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Wed Apr 8 17:23:59 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2015 15:23:59 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators Message-ID: <01a001d07242$54a175e0$fde461a0$@com> Hey All - I just got off of a phone call with my Onan generator supplier. Last conversation with Kohler was the same story basically. I was informed that their smallest water cooled generator, the RS22 (22 KW) is now no longer "rated "for off grid. They actually called me to confirm that this generator was for backup power to a utility inter connected house. Tier 4 generators in the EPA CFR 40 is the Federal code what covers this, & you are allowed 100 hours of run time for standby power and maintenance per year. Q - Why am I using ridiculous sized generators for something that an 82-8300 watt generator does just fine? A - The EPA current requirements, a shrinking economy, & manufacturers that have to meet very expensive air quality compliance. The Penalty - If you get caught running a "standby power only" generator the fine is now $39,000 per day! Now I am far from a polluting kind of individual and all for air quality but this is getting the best of us. The 13KW air cooled generators are only good for 2000 hours, & the water cooled go 20 years of moderate usage but cost a boat load. I hate having the "Generator" talk with a new client they look at me like I am crazy. So the air cooled units are basically throwaways and the 22KW units are way more than we need and what a client needs to spend money on, unless you are at 10,000 ft el. If you figure 30 amps/120 VAC input per inverter +/- x 2 = 7.2KW plus say 10-15% fudge or elevation factors would require an 8200-8300 watt generator. Air cooled at 3600 RPM = 80 MPH & 1800 RPM = 40 MPH. Even if the generator were a bit smaller, ran slow (1200-1800 rpm) and ran a bit longer that would be acceptable. So, why are we installing even 13KW air cooled or 22 KW water generators? There is a business opportunity here folks. What are you all installing? Why? Is it reliable? Would you use it on your house? Thanks for sharing all the wisdom and knowledge. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 - No FAX Line "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Apr 8 21:01:33 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2015 15:01:33 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators In-Reply-To: <01a001d07242$54a175e0$fde461a0$@com> References: <01a001d07242$54a175e0$fde461a0$@com> Message-ID: We don't install anything smaller then a 13 k its air cooled but works well, as far as the numbers you have, Mine are somewhat different I use max potential load and max potential charge as when the batteries are low the genny must not only supply the home but also charge the bank back up at a reasonable rate, so if the loads are high and the genny only has enough to maintain that load then what about the batteries plus I only use 75% of the genny rating for optimum or improved duty cycle. This is only me and I am sure every shop has there own math. Jerry On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Dana wrote: > Hey All – > > > > I just got off of a phone call with my Onan generator supplier. Last > conversation with Kohler was the same story basically. > > > > I was informed that their smallest water cooled generator, the RS22 (22 > KW) is now no longer “rated “for off grid. They actually called me to > confirm that this generator was for backup power to a utility inter > connected house. Tier 4 generators in the EPA CFR 40 is the Federal code > what covers this, & you are allowed 100 hours of run time for standby power > and maintenance per year. > > Q - Why am I using ridiculous sized generators for something that an > 82-8300 watt generator does just fine? > > A - The EPA current requirements, a shrinking economy, & manufacturers > that have to meet very expensive air quality compliance. > > The Penalty - If you get caught running a “standby power only” generator > the fine is now $39,000 per day! > > Now I am far from a polluting kind of individual and all for air quality > but this is getting the best of us. The 13KW air cooled generators are only > good for 2000 hours, & the water cooled go 20 years of moderate usage but > cost a boat load. I hate having the “Generator” talk with a new client they > look at me like I am crazy. So the air cooled units are basically > throwaways and the 22KW units are way more than we need and what a client > needs to spend money on, unless you are at 10,000 ft el. > > > > If you figure 30 amps/120 VAC input per inverter +/- x 2 = 7.2KW plus say > 10-15% fudge or elevation factors would require an 8200-8300 watt > generator. Air cooled at 3600 RPM = 80 MPH & 1800 RPM = 40 MPH. Even if > the generator were a bit smaller, ran slow (1200-1800 rpm) and ran a bit > longer that would be acceptable. > > So, why are we installing even 13KW air cooled or 22 KW water generators? > > There is a business opportunity here folks. > > > > What are you all installing? > > Why? > > Is it reliable? > > Would you use it on your house? > > > > Thanks for sharing all the wisdom and knowledge. > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > *Dana Orzel* > > *Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136* > > *E* - dana at solarwork.com - *Web* - solarwork.com > > *O* - 970.626.5253 *C *- 208.721.7003 - No FAX Line > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From corey at joule-energy.com Wed Apr 8 21:58:59 2015 From: corey at joule-energy.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2015 20:58:59 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Supply Side Interconnection - Parallel Conductors Message-ID: Wrenches, We are developing the design for an upcoming commercial project with the following service equipment: - MDP: 600A, main-lug, 6 main disconnect breakers, parallel 350kcmil service conductors feeding each main lug Would anything prevent a supply side interconnection in this scenario? (I understand that we would need to interconnect on *both* conductors in each parallel pair) -- Corey Shalanski Joule Energy New Orleans, LA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Wed Apr 8 22:04:26 2015 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2015 20:04:26 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How can I calculate ROI when the kWh rate varies through the day? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Mick, There are many tools that would do this. As far as free tools, NREL has a program call the System Advisor Model (SAM) https://sam.nrel.gov/ that you can download for free. There is a learning curve with it for sure, but its powerful. If you are comfortable with spreadsheets, you can use PV watts to generate hourly output and then apply time of use pricing to energy outputs. I believe they are both built on the same computational engine, but PV watts is much simpler. On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 2:15 PM, Mick Abraham wrote: > Hello, Mechanix~ > > A client requested a pure grid tie PV quote and of course I wish to help > him project ROI return on investment. PV Watts only allows a single value > to be keyed for the cents per kilowatt-hour, but my customer is on a TOU > "time of use" billing program, so from 1 P.M. to 5 P.M. the value of his > generated power is ~50% of the value during all other sunny hours. > > Is there a more sophisticated ROI calculation tool that allows $0.xx per > kilowatt hour for one time interval then $0.yy in for a different time > interval? This particular situation then also needs $0.zz for a third > interval to get an accurate projection. The rooftop is skewed to the east > so that skews the power delivery to benefit those hours before the value > per kilowatt hour drops, so the ideal ROI tool would factor in that non-180 > degree azimuth orientation, roof pitch etc. > > If I can think of any way to make this question more complicated, I'll > post a follow up (!) > > Thanks in advance. The Wrench List is da bomb! > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com > > Voice: 970-731-4675 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daveclick at fsec.ucf.edu Wed Apr 8 22:05:11 2015 From: daveclick at fsec.ucf.edu (Dave Click) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2015 22:05:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How can I calculate ROI when the kWh rate varies through the day? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5525DE57.7060002@fsec.ucf.edu> SAM is what you're looking for: https://sam.nrel.gov/ I didn't have much luck last time I tried to import TOU utility data, but you can enter your parameters manually if the auto-import doesn't work for you. Dave On 2015/4/8 16:15, Mick Abraham wrote: > Hello, Mechanix~ > > A client requested a pure grid tie PV quote and of course I wish to > help him project ROI return on investment. PV Watts only allows a > single value to be keyed for the cents per kilowatt-hour, but my > customer is on a TOU "time of use" billing program, so from 1 P.M. to > 5 P.M. the value of his generated power is ~50% of the value during > all other sunny hours. > > Is there a more sophisticated ROI calculation tool that allows $0.xx > per kilowatt hour for one time interval then $0.yy in for a different > time interval? This particular situation then also needs $0.zz for a > third interval to get an accurate projection. The rooftop is skewed to > the east so that skews the power delivery to benefit those hours > before the value per kilowatt hour drops, so the ideal ROI tool would > factor in that non-180 degree azimuth orientation, roof pitch etc. > > If I can think of any way to make this question more complicated, I'll > post a follow up (!) > > Thanks in advance. The Wrench List is da bomb! > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com > > Voice: 970-731-4675 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Wed Apr 8 22:47:20 2015 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2015 20:47:20 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Freeze protection Seasonal well Message-ID: Hello wrenches, Ive got a potential client that has purchased a Shurflo 9302 submersible pump that he wants to use at a seasonal cabin. Does this type of pump reliably drain back when it is not energized? If not, do you have any simple ways to keep the piping from freezing near the top of the well head? Thanks -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Wed Apr 8 23:29:57 2015 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2015 20:29:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Freeze protection Seasonal well In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1428550197.047117411@webmail.finestplanet.com> drill a tiny hole in the delivery line at the top of the casing, so when the water is not pumping it will empty into the well... yes, some will leak when the pump is running but the only other "non-automatic" option is a seasonal drain valve. todd On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 7:47pm, "Mac Lewis" said: Hello wrenches, Ive got a potential client that has purchased a Shurflo 9302 submersible pump that he wants to use at a seasonal cabin. Does this type of pump reliably drain back when it is not energized? If not, do you have any simple ways to keep the piping from freezing near the top of the well head? Thanks -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Thu Apr 9 08:03:28 2015 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 08:03:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Freeze protection Seasonal well In-Reply-To: <1428550197.047117411@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <1428550197.047117411@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: That is certainly one way of doing this but up here in the north country we install a "piss valve" available at your local plumbing or pump supply store. It is a small valve installed in the water line below freeze level in the well and when pump is operating the valve closes due to the rise of pipe pressure when pump is off it drains. On Apr 8, 2015, at 11:29 PM, toddcory at finestplanet.com wrote: > drill a tiny hole in the delivery line at the top of the casing, so when the water is not pumping it will empty into the well... yes, some will leak when the pump is running but the only other "non-automatic" option is a seasonal drain valve. > > todd > > > > > On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 7:47pm, "Mac Lewis" said: > > Hello wrenches, > Ive got a potential client that has purchased a Shurflo 9302 submersible pump that he wants to use at a seasonal cabin. Does this type of pump reliably drain back when it is not energized? > If not, do you have any simple ways to keep the piping from freezing near the top of the well head? > Thanks > -- > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Thu Apr 9 09:06:25 2015 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 07:06:25 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Freeze protection Seasonal well In-Reply-To: References: <1428550197.047117411@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: <66A27820-4C8F-4B0A-94A9-5448DA717FCC@skyfireenergy.com> Piss valve...aka yard hydrant. For the sake of Google searching ;) Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 > On Apr 9, 2015, at 6:03 AM, Tump wrote: > > That is certainly one way of doing this but up here in the north country we install a "piss valve" available at your local plumbing or pump supply store. It is a small valve installed in the water line below freeze level in the well and when pump is operating the valve closes due to the rise of pipe pressure when pump is off it drains. >> On Apr 8, 2015, at 11:29 PM, toddcory at finestplanet.com wrote: >> >> drill a tiny hole in the delivery line at the top of the casing, so when the water is not pumping it will empty into the well... yes, some will leak when the pump is running but the only other "non-automatic" option is a seasonal drain valve. >> >> todd >> >> >> >> >> On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 7:47pm, "Mac Lewis" said: >> >> Hello wrenches, >> Ive got a potential client that has purchased a Shurflo 9302 submersible pump that he wants to use at a seasonal cabin. Does this type of pump reliably drain back when it is not energized? >> If not, do you have any simple ways to keep the piping from freezing near the top of the well head? >> Thanks >> -- >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >> >> >> >> Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > >> Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net >> Solarwinds Northernlights >> Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California >> 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 >> Blair "TUMP" May >> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" >> >> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Thu Apr 9 09:39:50 2015 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 09:39:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Freeze protection Seasonal well In-Reply-To: <66A27820-4C8F-4B0A-94A9-5448DA717FCC@skyfireenergy.com> References: <1428550197.047117411@webmail.finestplanet.com> <66A27820-4C8F-4B0A-94A9-5448DA717FCC@skyfireenergy.com> Message-ID: <358650D6-6A2A-48C4-8D9C-1A28B774EB40@swnl.net> NOPE this is a small in line valve inside the well casing. Check valve at the pump at the bottom of well ck valve at the "tank"tee" when one opens the system in the fall pressure inside the feed line pressure drops and this little valve opens and drains residual H20 from the line. On Apr 9, 2015, at 9:06 AM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > Piss valve...aka yard hydrant. For the sake of Google searching ;) > > > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy Inc. > 780-906-7807 > > > On Apr 9, 2015, at 6:03 AM, Tump wrote: > >> That is certainly one way of doing this but up here in the north country we install a "piss valve" available at your local plumbing or pump supply store. It is a small valve installed in the water line below freeze level in the well and when pump is operating the valve closes due to the rise of pipe pressure when pump is off it drains. >> On Apr 8, 2015, at 11:29 PM, toddcory at finestplanet.com wrote: >> >>> drill a tiny hole in the delivery line at the top of the casing, so when the water is not pumping it will empty into the well... yes, some will leak when the pump is running but the only other "non-automatic" option is a seasonal drain valve. >>> >>> todd >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 7:47pm, "Mac Lewis" said: >>> >>> Hello wrenches, >>> Ive got a potential client that has purchased a Shurflo 9302 submersible pump that he wants to use at a seasonal cabin. Does this type of pump reliably drain back when it is not energized? >>> If not, do you have any simple ways to keep the piping from freezing near the top of the well head? >>> Thanks >>> -- >>> >>> Mac Lewis >>> >>> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> >>> Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net >>> Solarwinds Northernlights >>> Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California >>> 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 >>> Blair "TUMP" May >>> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>> NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" >>> >>> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>> Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Apr 9 09:15:55 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 09:15:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Supply Side Interconnection - Parallel Conductors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We just went through a similar scenario connecting between a 600A main breaker and five subpanels that were tapped off conductors in a wiring trough. In this case it was a load side interconnection, so the 120% rule applied. We tapped the conductors in the trough and went to our solar fusible disconnect. The parallel conductors in the trough needed to be sized to carry no more than 120% of the load from the 600A main and the 150A solar disconnect, which required upsizing the conductors to 625A parallel capacity. There was no issue with interconnecting with parallel conductors from the solar disconnect as you suggested. On the supply side you have it easier, not needing to comply with the 120% rule. I don't think you will have any issue unless your PV inverter output rating is greater than 600A! Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:58 PM, Corey Shalanski wrote: > Wrenches, > > We are developing the design for an upcoming commercial project with the > following service equipment: > - MDP: 600A, main-lug, 6 main disconnect breakers, parallel 350kcmil > service conductors feeding each main lug > > Would anything prevent a supply side interconnection in this scenario? (I > understand that we would need to interconnect on *both* conductors in each > parallel pair) > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Joule Energy > New Orleans, LA > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reellison at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 10:03:59 2015 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 10:03:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Freeze protection Seasonal well In-Reply-To: References: <1428550197.047117411@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: <00d001d072ce$2b3c83c0$81b58b40$@com> a tiny hole below water level and a check valve in the water line to prevent the water tank from dumping back into the well will work. In the winter just drain the tank. Bob From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Tump Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2015 8:03 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Freeze protection Seasonal well That is certainly one way of doing this but up here in the north country we install a "piss valve" available at your local plumbing or pump supply store. It is a small valve installed in the water line below freeze level in the well and when pump is operating the valve closes due to the rise of pipe pressure when pump is off it drains. On Apr 8, 2015, at 11:29 PM, toddcory at finestplanet.com wrote: drill a tiny hole in the delivery line at the top of the casing, so when the water is not pumping it will empty into the well... yes, some will leak when the pump is running but the only other "non-automatic" option is a seasonal drain valve. todd On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 7:47pm, "Mac Lewis" said: Hello wrenches, Ive got a potential client that has purchased a Shurflo 9302 submersible pump that he wants to use at a seasonal cabin. Does this type of pump reliably drain back when it is not energized? If not, do you have any simple ways to keep the piping from freezing near the top of the well head? Thanks -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net Solarwinds Northernlights Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 Blair "TUMP" May ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Thu Apr 9 11:13:05 2015 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 09:13:05 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Freeze protection Seasonal well In-Reply-To: <358650D6-6A2A-48C4-8D9C-1A28B774EB40@swnl.net> References: <1428550197.047117411@webmail.finestplanet.com> <66A27820-4C8F-4B0A-94A9-5448DA717FCC@skyfireenergy.com> <358650D6-6A2A-48C4-8D9C-1A28B774EB40@swnl.net> Message-ID: Yeah, i jumped the gun on that one. A yard hydrant was the first thing that came to mind but realized as soon as i hit send that they were completely different. *Benn Kilburn * CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc 6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7 P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com [image: email] [image: facebook] [image: twitter] [image: linkedin] [image: google] [image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal] On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 7:39 AM, Tump wrote: > NOPE this is a small in line valve inside the well casing. Check valve at > the pump at the bottom of well ck valve at the "tank"tee" when one opens > the system in the fall pressure inside the feed line pressure drops and > this little valve opens and drains residual H20 from the line. > > On Apr 9, 2015, at 9:06 AM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > > Piss valve...aka yard hydrant. For the sake of Google searching ;) > > > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy Inc. > 780-906-7807 > > > On Apr 9, 2015, at 6:03 AM, Tump wrote: > > That is certainly one way of doing this but up here in the north country > we install a "piss valve" available at your local plumbing or pump supply > store. It is a small valve installed in the water line below freeze level > in the well and when pump is operating the valve closes due to the rise of > pipe pressure when pump is off it drains. > On Apr 8, 2015, at 11:29 PM, toddcory at finestplanet.com wrote: > > drill a tiny hole in the delivery line at the top of the casing, so when > the water is not pumping it will empty into the well... yes, some will leak > when the pump is running but the only other "non-automatic" option is a > seasonal drain valve. > > > todd > > > > > > > On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 7:47pm, "Mac Lewis" > said: > > Hello wrenches, > Ive got a potential client that has purchased a Shurflo 9302 submersible > pump that he wants to use at a seasonal cabin. Does this type of pump > reliably drain back when it is not energized? > If not, do you have any simple ways to keep the piping from freezing near > the top of the well head? > Thanks > -- > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > *Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net* > Solarwinds Northernlights > * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* > * 207-832-7574 <207-832-7574> Cl. 610-517-8401 > <610-517-8401> * > *Blair "TUMP" May* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * * > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > *Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net* > Solarwinds Northernlights > * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* > * 207-832-7574 <207-832-7574> Cl. 610-517-8401 > <610-517-8401> * > *Blair "TUMP" May* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * * > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Apr 9 10:17:44 2015 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 07:17:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators In-Reply-To: References: <01a001d07242$54a175e0$fde461a0$@com> Message-ID: you wrote: The Penalty - If you get caught running a “standby power only” generator the fine is now $39,000 per day! ....you are allowed 100 hours of run time for standby power and maintenance per year. *************************************************************** Can this really be true? Is there any clarification on this? Does this mean that if a residence that was in a blackout that lasted a week ran the generator the entire time, which would be three days or running over the 100 hour mark, the owner could be fined $117,000? We had a 10 day blackout a few years back. With this scenario, everyone in our village who ran generators would have lost their houses. >> >> >> I just got off of a phone call with my Onan generator supplier. Last >> conversation with Kohler was the same story basically. >> >> >> >> I was informed that their smallest water cooled generator, the RS22 (22 >> KW) is now no longer “rated “for off grid. They actually called me >> to >> confirm that this generator was for backup power to a utility inter >> connected house. Tier 4 generators in the EPA CFR 40 is the Federal code >> what covers this, & you are allowed 100 hours of run time for standby >> power >> and maintenance per year. >> >> Q - Why am I using ridiculous sized generators for something that an >> 82-8300 watt generator does just fine? >> >> A - The EPA current requirements, a shrinking economy, & manufacturers >> that have to meet very expensive air quality compliance. >> >> The Penalty - If you get caught running a “standby power only” >> generator >> the fine is now $39,000 per day! >> >> Now I am far from a polluting kind of individual and all for air quality >> but this is getting the best of us. The 13KW air cooled generators are >> only >> good for 2000 hours, & the water cooled go 20 years of moderate usage >> but >> cost a boat load. I hate having the “Generator” talk with a new >> client they >> look at me like I am crazy. So the air cooled units are basically >> throwaways and the 22KW units are way more than we need and what a >> client >> needs to spend money on, unless you are at 10,000 ft el. >> >> >> >> If you figure 30 amps/120 VAC input per inverter +/- x 2 = 7.2KW plus >> say >> 10-15% fudge or elevation factors would require an 8200-8300 watt >> generator. Air cooled at 3600 RPM = 80 MPH & 1800 RPM = 40 MPH. Even if >> the generator were a bit smaller, ran slow (1200-1800 rpm) and ran a bit >> longer that would be acceptable. >> >> So, why are we installing even 13KW air cooled or 22 KW water >> generators? >> >> There is a business opportunity here folks. >> >> >> >> What are you all installing? >> >> Why? >> >> Is it reliable? >> >> Would you use it on your house? >> >> >> >> Thanks for sharing all the wisdom and knowledge. >> >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> *Dana Orzel* >> >> *Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136* >> >> *E* - dana at solarwork.com - *Web* - solarwork.com >> >> *O* - 970.626.5253 *C *- 208.721.7003 - No FAX Line >> >> *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * >> >> *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From dana at solarwork.com Thu Apr 9 10:56:26 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 08:56:26 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators In-Reply-To: References: <01a001d07242$54a175e0$fde461a0$@com> Message-ID: <007201d072d5$5b431d70$11c95850$@com> I agree but full load charging usually only lasts but a few minutes as the inverter charge rate drops readily as voltage rises. 8300 watt -10,000 watts or 13000 watts the point is why we are installing air cooled throw away generators that run so fast & hot that they need to be replaced in 2,000 hours, not to mention the fuel consumed at 80 MPH? Is there a slow speed (1200-1800 rpm) water cooled 8-13 KW generator out there? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: Jerry Shafer [mailto:jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 7:02 PM To: dana at solarwork.com; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators We don't install anything smaller then a 13 k its air cooled but works well, as far as the numbers you have, Mine are somewhat different I use max potential load and max potential charge as when the batteries are low the genny must not only supply the home but also charge the bank back up at a reasonable rate, so if the loads are high and the genny only has enough to maintain that load then what about the batteries plus I only use 75% of the genny rating for optimum or improved duty cycle. This is only me and I am sure every shop has there own math. Jerry On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Dana wrote: Hey All – I just got off of a phone call with my Onan generator supplier. Last conversation with Kohler was the same story basically. I was informed that their smallest water cooled generator, the RS22 (22 KW) is now no longer “rated “for off grid. They actually called me to confirm that this generator was for backup power to a utility inter connected house. Tier 4 generators in the EPA CFR 40 is the Federal code what covers this, & you are allowed 100 hours of run time for standby power and maintenance per year. Q - Why am I using ridiculous sized generators for something that an 82-8300 watt generator does just fine? A - The EPA current requirements, a shrinking economy, & manufacturers that have to meet very expensive air quality compliance. The Penalty - If you get caught running a “standby power only” generator the fine is now $39,000 per day! Now I am far from a polluting kind of individual and all for air quality but this is getting the best of us. The 13KW air cooled generators are only good for 2000 hours, & the water cooled go 20 years of moderate usage but cost a boat load. I hate having the “Generator” talk with a new client they look at me like I am crazy. So the air cooled units are basically throwaways and the 22KW units are way more than we need and what a client needs to spend money on, unless you are at 10,000 ft el. If you figure 30 amps/120 VAC input per inverter +/- x 2 = 7.2KW plus say 10-15% fudge or elevation factors would require an 8200-8300 watt generator. Air cooled at 3600 RPM = 80 MPH & 1800 RPM = 40 MPH. Even if the generator were a bit smaller, ran slow (1200-1800 rpm) and ran a bit longer that would be acceptable. So, why are we installing even 13KW air cooled or 22 KW water generators? There is a business opportunity here folks. What are you all installing? Why? Is it reliable? Would you use it on your house? Thanks for sharing all the wisdom and knowledge. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 - No FAX Line "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Apr 9 13:15:45 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 11:15:45 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators In-Reply-To: References: <01a001d07242$54a175e0$fde461a0$@com> Message-ID: <00b001d072e8$d154f750$73fee5f0$@com> "If" the utility is out the back up is OK. For a Tier 4 generator to be used on "offgrid" application yes the fine is $39,000 per day see the EPA CFR section 40. This is how it was explained to me by my ONAN rep. They are so concerned that they ask as to the use on each sale now. Please check with your generator reps as to this issue. For short periods of utility power out higher pollution levels are allowed and for off grid which as he quoted the solar "fails" at sunset each day per the EPA, this is not allowed and the generator need to be a cleaner running unit. However there is a CI cubic in displacement that allows the 13 KW sized engines and under to be exempt for off grid. That’s fine but why is there only 3600 RPM air cooled available when a slower 1200-1800 rpm would last longer, run quieter, and use less fuel? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2015 8:18 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators you wrote: The Penalty - If you get caught running a “standby power only” generator the fine is now $39,000 per day! ....you are allowed 100 hours of run time for standby power and maintenance per year. *************************************************************** Can this really be true? Is there any clarification on this? Does this mean that if a residence that was in a blackout that lasted a week ran the generator the entire time, which would be three days or running over the 100 hour mark, the owner could be fined $117,000? We had a 10 day blackout a few years back. With this scenario, everyone in our village who ran generators would have lost their houses. >> >> >> I just got off of a phone call with my Onan generator supplier. Last >> conversation with Kohler was the same story basically. >> >> >> >> I was informed that their smallest water cooled generator, the RS22 >> (22 >> KW) is now no longer “rated “for off grid. They actually called >> me to confirm that this generator was for backup power to a utility >> inter connected house. Tier 4 generators in the EPA CFR 40 is the >> Federal code what covers this, & you are allowed 100 hours of run >> time for standby power and maintenance per year. >> >> Q - Why am I using ridiculous sized generators for something that an >> 82-8300 watt generator does just fine? >> >> A - The EPA current requirements, a shrinking economy, & >> manufacturers that have to meet very expensive air quality compliance. >> >> The Penalty - If you get caught running a “standby power only” >> generator the fine is now $39,000 per day! >> >> Now I am far from a polluting kind of individual and all for air >> quality but this is getting the best of us. The 13KW air cooled >> generators are only good for 2000 hours, & the water cooled go 20 >> years of moderate usage but cost a boat load. I hate having the >> “Generator” talk with a new client they look at me like I am >> crazy. So the air cooled units are basically throwaways and the 22KW >> units are way more than we need and what a client needs to spend >> money on, unless you are at 10,000 ft el. >> >> >> >> If you figure 30 amps/120 VAC input per inverter +/- x 2 = 7.2KW plus >> say 10-15% fudge or elevation factors would require an 8200-8300 watt >> generator. Air cooled at 3600 RPM = 80 MPH & 1800 RPM = 40 MPH. Even >> if the generator were a bit smaller, ran slow (1200-1800 rpm) and ran >> a bit longer that would be acceptable. >> >> So, why are we installing even 13KW air cooled or 22 KW water >> generators? >> >> There is a business opportunity here folks. >> >> >> >> What are you all installing? >> >> Why? >> >> Is it reliable? >> >> Would you use it on your house? >> >> >> >> Thanks for sharing all the wisdom and knowledge. >> >> >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ------- >> >> *Dana Orzel* >> >> *Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136* >> >> *E* - dana at solarwork.com - *Web* - solarwork.com >> >> *O* - 970.626.5253 *C *- 208.721.7003 - No FAX Line >> >> *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * >> >> *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillis >> t.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 13:54:07 2015 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 11:54:07 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators Message-ID: <553122A5-FD6B-4E73-9BE4-08EDCA47F2B1@gmail.com> Dana, I find this emissions-related issue pretty interesting. It hasn't been totally clear to me why these generator manufacturers keep taking various models off their "off-grid rated" lists, but this seems to shed a little more light on the issue. However, I've been under the impression that the really restrictive tier 4 regulations were mainly targeted at high horsepower diesel gensets. Does a tiny (relatively speaking) propane genset have to meet the same runtime restrictions, etc? In this penalty scenario where someone is getting fined $39k/day for running a standby power only generator in a non-standby situation, who is at risk of getting fined? Surely not the property owner… And how could that possibly be enforced? Best, -Luke Luke Christy NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 CoSEIA Certified PV Installer Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO. 81144 SGSRenewables at Gmail.com 719.588.3044 www.sgsrenewables.com Message: 3 Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2015 15:23:59 -0600 From: "Dana" To: "'RE-wrenches'" Subject: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators Message-ID: <01a001d07242$54a175e0$fde461a0$@com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hey All - I just got off of a phone call with my Onan generator supplier. Last conversation with Kohler was the same story basically. I was informed that their smallest water cooled generator, the RS22 (22 KW) is now no longer "rated "for off grid. They actually called me to confirm that this generator was for backup power to a utility inter connected house. Tier 4 generators in the EPA CFR 40 is the Federal code what covers this, & you are allowed 100 hours of run time for standby power and maintenance per year. Q - Why am I using ridiculous sized generators for something that an 82-8300 watt generator does just fine? A - The EPA current requirements, a shrinking economy, & manufacturers that have to meet very expensive air quality compliance. The Penalty - If you get caught running a "standby power only" generator the fine is now $39,000 per day! Now I am far from a polluting kind of individual and all for air quality but this is getting the best of us. The 13KW air cooled generators are only good for 2000 hours, & the water cooled go 20 years of moderate usage but cost a boat load. I hate having the "Generator" talk with a new client they look at me like I am crazy. So the air cooled units are basically throwaways and the 22KW units are way more than we need and what a client needs to spend money on, unless you are at 10,000 ft el. If you figure 30 amps/120 VAC input per inverter +/- x 2 = 7.2KW plus say 10-15% fudge or elevation factors would require an 8200-8300 watt generator. Air cooled at 3600 RPM = 80 MPH & 1800 RPM = 40 MPH. Even if the generator were a bit smaller, ran slow (1200-1800 rpm) and ran a bit longer that would be acceptable. So, why are we installing even 13KW air cooled or 22 KW water generators? There is a business opportunity here folks. What are you all installing? Why? Is it reliable? Would you use it on your house? Thanks for sharing all the wisdom and knowledge. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 - No FAX Line "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From reellison at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 14:51:29 2015 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 14:51:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators In-Reply-To: <007201d072d5$5b431d70$11c95850$@com> References: <01a001d07242$54a175e0$fde461a0$@com> <007201d072d5$5b431d70$11c95850$@com> Message-ID: <36D93537-53A9-4DA0-82AC-AAD05EAF9806@gmail.com> I haven't looked lately but check out hardy diesels, 16 kW three cylinder Perkins I have some customers that are real happy with them they have enough power to run charging and the household loads of the same time The price only hurts for a little while Bob Ellison > On Apr 9, 2015, at 10:56 AM, Dana wrote: > > I agree but full load charging usually only lasts but a few minutes as the inverter charge rate drops readily as voltage rises. 8300 watt -10,000 watts or 13000 watts the point is why we are installing air cooled throw away generators that run so fast & hot that they need to be replaced in 2,000 hours, not to mention the fuel consumed at 80 MPH? > > Is there a slow speed (1200-1800 rpm) water cooled 8-13 KW generator out there? > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dana Orzel > Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 > E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com > O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > From: Jerry Shafer [mailto:jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 7:02 PM > To: dana at solarwork.com; RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators > > We don't install anything smaller then a 13 k its air cooled but works well, as far as the numbers you have, Mine are somewhat different I use max potential load and max potential charge as when the batteries are low the genny must not only supply the home but also charge the bank back up at a reasonable rate, so if the loads are high and the genny only has enough to maintain that load then what about the batteries plus I only use 75% of the genny rating for optimum or improved duty cycle. This is only me and I am sure every shop has there own math. > Jerry > > On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Dana wrote: > Hey All – > > I just got off of a phone call with my Onan generator supplier. Last conversation with Kohler was the same story basically. > > I was informed that their smallest water cooled generator, the RS22 (22 KW) is now no longer “rated “for off grid. They actually called me to confirm that this generator was for backup power to a utility inter connected house. Tier 4 generators in the EPA CFR 40 is the Federal code what covers this, & you are allowed 100 hours of run time for standby power and maintenance per year. > Q - Why am I using ridiculous sized generators for something that an 82-8300 watt generator does just fine? > A - The EPA current requirements, a shrinking economy, & manufacturers that have to meet very expensive air quality compliance. > The Penalty - If you get caught running a “standby power only” generator the fine is now $39,000 per day! > Now I am far from a polluting kind of individual and all for air quality but this is getting the best of us. The 13KW air cooled generators are only good for 2000 hours, & the water cooled go 20 years of moderate usage but cost a boat load. I hate having the “Generator” talk with a new client they look at me like I am crazy. So the air cooled units are basically throwaways and the 22KW units are way more than we need and what a client needs to spend money on, unless you are at 10,000 ft el. > > If you figure 30 amps/120 VAC input per inverter +/- x 2 = 7.2KW plus say 10-15% fudge or elevation factors would require an 8200-8300 watt generator. Air cooled at 3600 RPM = 80 MPH & 1800 RPM = 40 MPH. Even if the generator were a bit smaller, ran slow (1200-1800 rpm) and ran a bit longer that would be acceptable. > So, why are we installing even 13KW air cooled or 22 KW water generators? > There is a business opportunity here folks. > > What are you all installing? > Why? > Is it reliable? > Would you use it on your house? > > Thanks for sharing all the wisdom and knowledge. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dana Orzel > Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 > E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com > O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 - No FAX Line > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Apr 9 14:38:44 2015 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2015 14:38:44 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators In-Reply-To: <553122A5-FD6B-4E73-9BE4-08EDCA47F2B1@gmail.com> References: <553122A5-FD6B-4E73-9BE4-08EDCA47F2B1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20150409183845.3B0883DC05E@homiemail-a92.g.dreamhost.com> Are people still happy with the Generac EcoGen? Has anyone tried the 15 KW yet? Hopefully it won't get booted from off grid status. At 01:54 PM 4/9/2015, you wrote: >Dana, >I find this emissions-related issue pretty >interesting. It hasn't been totally clear to me >why these generator manufacturers keep taking >various models off their "off-grid rated" lists, >but this seems to shed a little more light on the issue. > >However, I've been under the impression that the >really restrictive tier 4 regulations were >mainly targeted at high horsepower diesel >gensets. Does a tiny (relatively >speaking) propane genset have to meet the same runtime restrictions, etc? > >In this penalty scenario where someone is >getting fined $39k/day for running a standby >power only generator in a non-standby situation, >who is at risk of getting fined? Surely not the >property owner And how could that possibly be enforced? > >Best, >-Luke > > >Luke Christy > >NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 >NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 >CoSEIA Certified PV Installer > >Solar Gain Services, LLC >PO Box 531 >Monte Vista, CO. 81144 >SGSRenewables at Gmail.com >719.588.3044 >www.sgsrenewables.com > > >Message: 3 >Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2015 15:23:59 -0600 >From: "Dana" >To: "'RE-wrenches'" >Subject: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators >Message-ID: <01a001d07242$54a175e0$fde461a0$@com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >Hey All - > > > >I just got off of a phone call with my Onan generator supplier. Last >conversation with Kohler was the same story basically. > > > >I was informed that their smallest water cooled generator, the RS22 (22 KW) >is now no longer "rated "for off grid. They actually called me to confirm >that this generator was for backup power to a utility inter connected house. >Tier 4 generators in the EPA CFR 40 is the Federal code what covers this, & >you are allowed 100 hours of run time for standby power and maintenance per >year. > >Q - Why am I using ridiculous sized generators for something that an 82-8300 >watt generator does just fine? > >A - The EPA current requirements, a shrinking economy, & manufacturers that >have to meet very expensive air quality compliance. > >The Penalty - If you get caught running a "standby power only" generator the >fine is now $39,000 per day! > >Now I am far from a polluting kind of individual and all for air quality but >this is getting the best of us. The 13KW air cooled generators are only good >for 2000 hours, & the water cooled go 20 years of moderate usage but cost a >boat load. I hate having the "Generator" talk with a new client they look at >me like I am crazy. So the air cooled units are basically throwaways and the >22KW units are way more than we need and what a client needs to spend money >on, unless you are at 10,000 ft el. > > > >If you figure 30 amps/120 VAC input per inverter +/- x 2 = 7.2KW plus say >10-15% fudge or elevation factors would require an 8200-8300 watt generator. >Air cooled at 3600 RPM = 80 MPH & 1800 RPM = 40 MPH. Even if the generator >were a bit smaller, ran slow (1200-1800 rpm) and ran a bit longer that would >be acceptable. > >So, why are we installing even 13KW air cooled or 22 KW water generators? > >There is a business opportunity here folks. > > > >What are you all installing? > >Why? > >Is it reliable? > >Would you use it on your house? > > > >Thanks for sharing all the wisdom and knowledge. > > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Dana Orzel > >Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 > >E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com > >O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 - No FAX Line > >"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > >P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org From Gary at IcarusSolarServices.com Thu Apr 9 16:40:48 2015 From: Gary at IcarusSolarServices.com (Gary Willett) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2015 15:40:48 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators In-Reply-To: <007201d072d5$5b431d70$11c95850$@com> References: <01a001d07242$54a175e0$fde461a0$@com> <007201d072d5$5b431d70$11c95850$@com> Message-ID: <5526E3D0.1060202@IcarusSolarServices.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Apr 9 16:22:35 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 14:22:35 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators In-Reply-To: <553122A5-FD6B-4E73-9BE4-08EDCA47F2B1@gmail.com> References: <553122A5-FD6B-4E73-9BE4-08EDCA47F2B1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00b701d07302$eb583620$c208a260$@com> The home owner gets fined & typically they sue the installer & supplier. This is why ONAN was actually calling me to verify that the installation is for a utility supplied home and not an off grid installation. This is happening. I am just passing along the gist of a 43 minute phone call with Onan. I have contacted several other genset suppliers late yesterday and they concurred with the Onan reps statements. This applies regardless of the fuel type. I am going to try to get some written definition and will pass it along. In the mean time: Is there a generator supplier on the list that can fill us in a bit more? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Luke Christy Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2015 11:54 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators Dana, I find this emissions-related issue pretty interesting. It hasn't been totally clear to me why these generator manufacturers keep taking various models off their "off-grid rated" lists, but this seems to shed a little more light on the issue. However, I've been under the impression that the really restrictive tier 4 regulations were mainly targeted at high horsepower diesel gensets. Does a tiny (relatively speaking) propane genset have to meet the same runtime restrictions, etc? In this penalty scenario where someone is getting fined $39k/day for running a standby power only generator in a non-standby situation, who is at risk of getting fined? Surely not the property owner… And how could that possibly be enforced? Best, -Luke Luke Christy NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 CoSEIA Certified PV Installer Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO. 81144 SGSRenewables at Gmail.com 719.588.3044 www.sgsrenewables.com Message: 3 Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2015 15:23:59 -0600 From: "Dana" To: "'RE-wrenches'" Subject: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators Message-ID: <01a001d07242$54a175e0$fde461a0$@com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hey All - I just got off of a phone call with my Onan generator supplier. Last conversation with Kohler was the same story basically. I was informed that their smallest water cooled generator, the RS22 (22 KW) is now no longer "rated "for off grid. They actually called me to confirm that this generator was for backup power to a utility inter connected house. Tier 4 generators in the EPA CFR 40 is the Federal code what covers this, & you are allowed 100 hours of run time for standby power and maintenance per year. Q - Why am I using ridiculous sized generators for something that an 82-8300 watt generator does just fine? A - The EPA current requirements, a shrinking economy, & manufacturers that have to meet very expensive air quality compliance. The Penalty - If you get caught running a "standby power only" generator the fine is now $39,000 per day! Now I am far from a polluting kind of individual and all for air quality but this is getting the best of us. The 13KW air cooled generators are only good for 2000 hours, & the water cooled go 20 years of moderate usage but cost a boat load. I hate having the "Generator" talk with a new client they look at me like I am crazy. So the air cooled units are basically throwaways and the 22KW units are way more than we need and what a client needs to spend money on, unless you are at 10,000 ft el. If you figure 30 amps/120 VAC input per inverter +/- x 2 = 7.2KW plus say 10-15% fudge or elevation factors would require an 8200-8300 watt generator. Air cooled at 3600 RPM = 80 MPH & 1800 RPM = 40 MPH. Even if the generator were a bit smaller, ran slow (1200-1800 rpm) and ran a bit longer that would be acceptable. So, why are we installing even 13KW air cooled or 22 KW water generators? There is a business opportunity here folks. What are you all installing? Why? Is it reliable? Would you use it on your house? Thanks for sharing all the wisdom and knowledge. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 - No FAX Line "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From ray at solarray.com Thu Apr 9 17:17:51 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2015 15:17:51 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators In-Reply-To: <5526E3D0.1060202@IcarusSolarServices.com> References: <01a001d07242$54a175e0$fde461a0$@com> <007201d072d5$5b431d70$11c95850$@com> <5526E3D0.1060202@IcarusSolarServices.com> Message-ID: <5526EC7F.8090107@solarray.com> I used an Ecogen recently, and I liked many aspects of it. However the=20 continuous draw of the on board electronics is just ridiculous for an=20 off grid generator. A 15 w solar module charging the start battery was barely able to keep=20 up with the draw. Running AC off the inverter to the generator is also=20 just another unnecessary 24/7 phantom load. We may be 20 years into the future, but no one has built a generator=20 that can hold a candle to the old water cooled, 1800 RPM Kohlers. Most=20 of those are still in service, and had simple 2 wire start. The Ecogen's=20 onboard computer is a serious design flaw IMO. We don't need the=20 generator to "think" in an off grid system; we already have inverters=20 that do a much better job of that. The generator just needs to start=20 reliably when its called upon. I would appreciate if someone with more experience with the Ecogens=20 could explain why the on board electronics are good, or...... how to=20 bypass them completely. We had a great off grid generator solution 2 decades ago, and the closer=20 today's manufacturers can get back to that, the better we and our=20 customers will all be. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 4/9/2015 2:40 PM, Gary Willett wrote: > Dana: > > Take a look at the new Generac EcoGen 15kW that was purpose built for=20 > a renewable energy system* > /* including an inverter, battery bank and alternative energy power=20 > source/ > > http://gens.lccdn.com/generaccorporate/media/library/content/all-products= /generators/home-generators/ecogen-series/15kw-6103/0k8466-c-15kw-ecogen-hs= b.pdf > > The 15kW EcoGen has the same footprint as the 6kW EcoGen (LP only) and=20 > is natural gas or LP gas capable. The generator has a constant=20 > frequency / variable speed AVR based on electrical demand. > > Also, 500 run hours between oil changes. And a 3-year or 2000 hour=20 > warranty. > http://gens.lccdn.com/generaccorporate/media/library/content/all-products= /generators/home-generators/ecogen-series/ecogen-warranty-0j1629-revb.pdf > > Regards, > > Gary Willett > Icarus Engineering & Solar Services LLC > > > On 4/9/15 9:56 AM, Dana wrote: >> >> I agree but full load charging usually only lasts but a few minutes=20 >> as the inverter charge rate drops readily as voltage rises. 8300 watt=20 >> -10,000 watts or 13000 watts the point is why we are installing air=20 >> cooled throw away generators that run so fast & hot that they need to=20 >> be replaced in 2,000 hours, not to mention the fuel consumed at 80 MPH? >> >> Is there a slow speed (1200-1800 rpm) water cooled 8-13 KW generator=20 >> out there? >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- >> >> Dana Orzel >> >> Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 >> >> E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com >> >> O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 >> >> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >> >> *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> *From:*Jerry Shafer [mailto:jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com] >> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 08, 2015 7:02 PM >> *To:* dana at solarwork.com; RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators >> >> We don't install anything smaller then a 13 k its air cooled but=20 >> works well, as far as the numbers you have, Mine are somewhat=20 >> different I use max potential load and max potential charge as when=20 >> the batteries are low the genny must not only supply the home but=20 >> also charge the bank back up at a reasonable rate, so if the loads=20 >> are high and the genny only has enough to maintain that load then=20 >> what about the batteries plus I only use 75% of the genny rating for=20 >> optimum or improved duty cycle. This is only me and I am sure every=20 >> shop has there own math. >> >> Jerry >> >> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Dana > > wrote: >> >> Hey All =E2=80=93 >> >> I just got off of a phone call with my Onan generator supplier. Last=20 >> conversation with Kohler was the same story basically. >> >> I was informed that their smallest water cooled generator, the RS22=20 >> (22 KW) is now no longer =E2=80=9Crated =E2=80=9Cfor off grid. They actu= ally called=20 >> me to confirm that this generator was for backup power to a utility=20 >> inter connected house. Tier 4 generators in the EPA CFR 40 is the=20 >> Federal code what covers this, & you are allowed 100 hours of run=20 >> time for standby power and maintenance per year. >> >> Q - Why am I using ridiculous sized generators for something that an=20 >> 82-8300 watt generator does just fine? >> >> A - The EPA current requirements, a shrinking economy, &=20 >> manufacturers that have to meet very expensive air quality compliance. >> >> The Penalty - If you get caught running a =E2=80=9Cstandby power only=E2= =80=9D=20 >> generator the fine is now $39,000 per day! >> >> Now I am far from a polluting kind of individual and all for air=20 >> quality but this is getting the best of us. The 13KW air cooled=20 >> generators are only good for 2000 hours, & the water cooled go 20=20 >> years of moderate usage but cost a boat load. I hate having the=20 >> =E2=80=9CGenerator=E2=80=9D talk with a new client they look at me like = I am crazy.=20 >> So the air cooled units are basically throwaways and the 22KW units=20 >> are way more than we need and what a client needs to spend money on,=20 >> unless you are at 10,000 ft el. >> >> If you figure 30 amps/120 VAC input per inverter +/- x 2 =3D 7.2KW plus = >> say 10-15% fudge or elevation factors would require an 8200-8300 watt=20 >> generator. Air cooled at 3600 RPM =3D 80 MPH & 1800 RPM =3D 40 MPH. Eve= n=20 >> if the generator were a bit smaller, ran slow (1200-1800 rpm) and ran=20 >> a bit longer that would be acceptable. >> >> So, why are we installing even 13KW air cooled or 22 KW water generators? >> >> There is a business opportunity here folks. >> >> What are you all installing? >> >> Why? >> >> Is it reliable? >> >> Would you use it on your house? >> >> Thanks for sharing all the wisdom and knowledge. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- >> >> *Dana Orzel* >> >> _Great Solar Works, Inc - *NABCEP # 051112-136*_ >> >> *E*- dana at solarwork.com - *Web* -=20 >> solarwork.com >> >> *O*- 970.626.5253 *C *- 208.721.7003=20 >> - No FAX Line >> >> *_"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" _* >> >> *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org=20 >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:=20 >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.h= tml >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm=20 >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Thu Apr 9 17:24:13 2015 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (dan at foxfire-energy.com) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2015 14:24:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators Message-ID: <20150409142413.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.6b03ebc6e6.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sigimg0 Type: image/png Size: 25138 bytes Desc: not available URL: From boB at midnitesolar.com Thu Apr 9 17:38:38 2015 From: boB at midnitesolar.com (boB at midnitesolar.com) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2015 14:38:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators In-Reply-To: <5526EC7F.8090107@solarray.com> References: <01a001d07242$54a175e0$fde461a0$@com> <007201d072d5$5b431d70$11c95850$@com> <5526E3D0.1060202@IcarusSolarServices.com> <5526EC7F.8090107@solarray.com> Message-ID: <5526F15E.7080908@midnitesolar.com> Maybe that control board could be disconnected when the generator is=20 in-between uses ? boB On 4/9/2015 2:17 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > I used an Ecogen recently, and I liked many aspects of it. However the=20 > continuous draw of the on board electronics is just ridiculous for an=20 > off grid generator. > A 15 w solar module charging the start battery was barely able to keep=20 > up with the draw. Running AC off the inverter to the generator is=20 > also just another unnecessary 24/7 phantom load. > We may be 20 years into the future, but no one has built a generator=20 > that can hold a candle to the old water cooled, 1800 RPM Kohlers. =20 > Most of those are still in service, and had simple 2 wire start. The=20 > Ecogen's onboard computer is a serious design flaw IMO. We don't=20 > need the generator to "think" in an off grid system; we already have=20 > inverters that do a much better job of that. The generator just needs=20 > to start reliably when its called upon. > I would appreciate if someone with more experience with the Ecogens=20 > could explain why the on board electronics are good, or...... how to=20 > bypass them completely. > We had a great off grid generator solution 2 decades ago, and the=20 > closer today's manufacturers can get back to that, the better we and=20 > our customers will all be. > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > On 4/9/2015 2:40 PM, Gary Willett wrote: >> Dana: >> >> Take a look at the new Generac EcoGen 15kW that was purpose built for=20 >> a renewable energy system* >> /* including an inverter, battery bank and alternative energy power=20 >> source/ >> >> http://gens.lccdn.com/generaccorporate/media/library/content/all-product= s/generators/home-generators/ecogen-series/15kw-6103/0k8466-c-15kw-ecogen-h= sb.pdf >> >> The 15kW EcoGen has the same footprint as the 6kW EcoGen (LP only)=20 >> and is natural gas or LP gas capable. The generator has a constant=20 >> frequency / variable speed AVR based on electrical demand. >> >> Also, 500 run hours between oil changes. And a 3-year or 2000 hour=20 >> warranty. >> http://gens.lccdn.com/generaccorporate/media/library/content/all-product= s/generators/home-generators/ecogen-series/ecogen-warranty-0j1629-revb.pdf >> >> Regards, >> >> Gary Willett >> Icarus Engineering & Solar Services LLC >> >> >> On 4/9/15 9:56 AM, Dana wrote: >>> >>> I agree but full load charging usually only lasts but a few minutes=20 >>> as the inverter charge rate drops readily as voltage rises. 8300=20 >>> watt -10,000 watts or 13000 watts the point is why we are installing=20 >>> air cooled throw away generators that run so fast & hot that they=20 >>> need to be replaced in 2,000 hours, not to mention the fuel consumed=20 >>> at 80 MPH? >>> >>> Is there a slow speed (1200-1800 rpm) water cooled 8-13 KW generator=20 >>> out there? >>> >>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- >>> >>> Dana Orzel >>> >>> Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 >>> >>> E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com >>> >>> O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 >>> >>> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >>> >>> *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email. >>> >>> *From:*Jerry Shafer [mailto:jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com] >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 08, 2015 7:02 PM >>> *To:* dana at solarwork.com; RE-wrenches >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators >>> >>> We don't install anything smaller then a 13 k its air cooled but=20 >>> works well, as far as the numbers you have, Mine are somewhat=20 >>> different I use max potential load and max potential charge as when=20 >>> the batteries are low the genny must not only supply the home but=20 >>> also charge the bank back up at a reasonable rate, so if the loads=20 >>> are high and the genny only has enough to maintain that load then=20 >>> what about the batteries plus I only use 75% of the genny rating for=20 >>> optimum or improved duty cycle. This is only me and I am sure every=20 >>> shop has there own math. >>> >>> Jerry >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Dana >> > wrote: >>> >>> Hey All =E2=80=93 >>> >>> I just got off of a phone call with my Onan generator supplier. Last=20 >>> conversation with Kohler was the same story basically. >>> >>> I was informed that their smallest water cooled generator, the RS22=20 >>> (22 KW) is now no longer =E2=80=9Crated =E2=80=9Cfor off grid. They act= ually called=20 >>> me to confirm that this generator was for backup power to a utility=20 >>> inter connected house. Tier 4 generators in the EPA CFR 40 is the=20 >>> Federal code what covers this, & you are allowed 100 hours of run=20 >>> time for standby power and maintenance per year. >>> >>> Q - Why am I using ridiculous sized generators for something that an=20 >>> 82-8300 watt generator does just fine? >>> >>> A - The EPA current requirements, a shrinking economy, &=20 >>> manufacturers that have to meet very expensive air quality compliance. >>> >>> The Penalty - If you get caught running a =E2=80=9Cstandby power only= =E2=80=9D=20 >>> generator the fine is now $39,000 per day! >>> >>> Now I am far from a polluting kind of individual and all for air=20 >>> quality but this is getting the best of us. The 13KW air cooled=20 >>> generators are only good for 2000 hours, & the water cooled go 20=20 >>> years of moderate usage but cost a boat load. I hate having the=20 >>> =E2=80=9CGenerator=E2=80=9D talk with a new client they look at me like= I am crazy.=20 >>> So the air cooled units are basically throwaways and the 22KW units=20 >>> are way more than we need and what a client needs to spend money on,=20 >>> unless you are at 10,000 ft el. >>> >>> If you figure 30 amps/120 VAC input per inverter +/- x 2 =3D 7.2KW=20 >>> plus say 10-15% fudge or elevation factors would require an=20 >>> 8200-8300 watt generator. Air cooled at 3600 RPM =3D 80 MPH & 1800 RPM = >>> =3D 40 MPH. Even if the generator were a bit smaller, ran slow=20 >>> (1200-1800 rpm) and ran a bit longer that would be acceptable. >>> >>> So, why are we installing even 13KW air cooled or 22 KW water=20 >>> generators? >>> >>> There is a business opportunity here folks. >>> >>> What are you all installing? >>> >>> Why? >>> >>> Is it reliable? >>> >>> Would you use it on your house? >>> >>> Thanks for sharing all the wisdom and knowledge. >>> >>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- >>> >>> *Dana Orzel* >>> >>> _Great Solar Works, Inc - *NABCEP # 051112-136*_ >>> >>> *E*- dana at solarwork.com - *Web* -=20 >>> solarwork.com >>> >>> *O*- 970.626.5253 *C *- 208.721.7003=20 >>> - No FAX Line >>> >>> *_"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" _* >>> >>> *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email. >>> >>> >>> ______________________ >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Apr 9 17:17:53 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 15:17:53 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators In-Reply-To: <5526E3D0.1060202@IcarusSolarServices.com> References: <01a001d07242$54a175e0$fde461a0$@com> <007201d072d5$5b431d70$11c95850$@com> <5526E3D0.1060202@IcarusSolarServices.com> Message-ID: <00d101d0730a$a511aa90$ef34ffb0$@com> I am going out on a limb here - In 26 years of installing generators I have only seen (2) Generacs that were actually working, one was a 30 KW and the other smaller. I have removed/replaced in excess of (25) Generacs that have died for a variety of issues: fire, controller blew up, engine seized (several times) over that time span. Primarily because the owners were totally fed up with getting them fixed and having to rent a temp replacement while the wreck was in the shop. For some of these people they had to drive 2+ hours each way to get it to an approved service center. Enough said I will stop there. I am aware of the ECOGen and again it is 2,700 to 3,600 RPM. 3,600 RPM is 80 miles per hour with an air cooled engine. How do you expect long and reliable life there? Interesting on the 2000 hour warranty that seems to be the hour limit on most air cooled 3,600 rpm unit where they fail, & Oil changes at 40,000 miles exceeds AMSOILs synthetic 25,000 mile best oil rating by 15,000 miles. However the prior 26 years of experience have taught me to be very careful here. I am curious as to actual life on these units and other folk's experience. Chime in here. Still looking & voting for a water cooled slow rpm 10 KW..... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Gary Willett Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2015 2:41 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators Dana: Take a look at the new Generac EcoGen 15kW that was purpose built for a renewable energy system* * including an inverter, battery bank and alternative energy power source http://gens.lccdn.com/generaccorporate/media/library/content/all-products/ge nerators/home-generators/ecogen-series/15kw-6103/0k8466-c-15kw-ecogen-hsb.pd f The 15kW EcoGen has the same footprint as the 6kW EcoGen (LP only) and is natural gas or LP gas capable. The generator has a constant frequency / variable speed AVR based on electrical demand. Also, 500 run hours between oil changes. And a 3-year or 2000 hour warranty. http://gens.lccdn.com/generaccorporate/media/library/content/all-products/ge nerators/home-generators/ecogen-series/ecogen-warranty-0j1629-revb.pdf Regards, Gary Willett Icarus Engineering & Solar Services LLC On 4/9/15 9:56 AM, Dana wrote: I agree but full load charging usually only lasts but a few minutes as the inverter charge rate drops readily as voltage rises. 8300 watt -10,000 watts or 13000 watts the point is why we are installing air cooled throw away generators that run so fast & hot that they need to be replaced in 2,000 hours, not to mention the fuel consumed at 80 MPH? Is there a slow speed (1200-1800 rpm) water cooled 8-13 KW generator out there? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: Jerry Shafer [mailto:jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 7:02 PM To: dana at solarwork.com; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators We don't install anything smaller then a 13 k its air cooled but works well, as far as the numbers you have, Mine are somewhat different I use max potential load and max potential charge as when the batteries are low the genny must not only supply the home but also charge the bank back up at a reasonable rate, so if the loads are high and the genny only has enough to maintain that load then what about the batteries plus I only use 75% of the genny rating for optimum or improved duty cycle. This is only me and I am sure every shop has there own math. Jerry On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Dana wrote: Hey All - I just got off of a phone call with my Onan generator supplier. Last conversation with Kohler was the same story basically. I was informed that their smallest water cooled generator, the RS22 (22 KW) is now no longer "rated "for off grid. They actually called me to confirm that this generator was for backup power to a utility inter connected house. Tier 4 generators in the EPA CFR 40 is the Federal code what covers this, & you are allowed 100 hours of run time for standby power and maintenance per year. Q - Why am I using ridiculous sized generators for something that an 82-8300 watt generator does just fine? A - The EPA current requirements, a shrinking economy, & manufacturers that have to meet very expensive air quality compliance. The Penalty - If you get caught running a "standby power only" generator the fine is now $39,000 per day! Now I am far from a polluting kind of individual and all for air quality but this is getting the best of us. The 13KW air cooled generators are only good for 2000 hours, & the water cooled go 20 years of moderate usage but cost a boat load. I hate having the "Generator" talk with a new client they look at me like I am crazy. So the air cooled units are basically throwaways and the 22KW units are way more than we need and what a client needs to spend money on, unless you are at 10,000 ft el. If you figure 30 amps/120 VAC input per inverter +/- x 2 = 7.2KW plus say 10-15% fudge or elevation factors would require an 8200-8300 watt generator. Air cooled at 3600 RPM = 80 MPH & 1800 RPM = 40 MPH. Even if the generator were a bit smaller, ran slow (1200-1800 rpm) and ran a bit longer that would be acceptable. So, why are we installing even 13KW air cooled or 22 KW water generators? There is a business opportunity here folks. What are you all installing? Why? Is it reliable? Would you use it on your house? Thanks for sharing all the wisdom and knowledge. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 - No FAX Line "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Apr 9 17:32:42 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 15:32:42 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators In-Reply-To: <5526EC7F.8090107@solarray.com> References: <01a001d07242$54a175e0$fde461a0$@com> <007201d072d5$5b431d70$11c95850$@com> <5526E3D0.1060202@IcarusSolarServices.com> <5526EC7F.8090107@solarray.com> Message-ID: <00e201d0730c$b6e3d250$24ab76f0$@com> KOHLERS RSA14 - 14 KW is the same I have to run and AC circuit to the gen to run a battery charger from the inverter. A 30 Watt PV module in the winter is not enough if it is cloudy for a week. The battery dies and has frozen. Again the control board is too much draw and does way too much. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2015 3:18 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators I used an Ecogen recently, and I liked many aspects of it. However the continuous draw of the on board electronics is just ridiculous for an off grid generator. A 15 w solar module charging the start battery was barely able to keep up with the draw. Running AC off the inverter to the generator is also just another unnecessary 24/7 phantom load. We may be 20 years into the future, but no one has built a generator that can hold a candle to the old water cooled, 1800 RPM Kohlers. Most of those are still in service, and had simple 2 wire start. The Ecogen's onboard computer is a serious design flaw IMO. We don't need the generator to "think" in an off grid system; we already have inverters that do a much better job of that. The generator just needs to start reliably when its called upon. I would appreciate if someone with more experience with the Ecogens could explain why the on board electronics are good, or...... how to bypass them completely. We had a great off grid generator solution 2 decades ago, and the closer today's manufacturers can get back to that, the better we and our customers will all be. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 4/9/2015 2:40 PM, Gary Willett wrote: Dana: Take a look at the new Generac EcoGen 15kW that was purpose built for a renewable energy system* * including an inverter, battery bank and alternative energy power source http://gens.lccdn.com/generaccorporate/media/library/content/all-products/ge nerators/home-generators/ecogen-series/15kw-6103/0k8466-c-15kw-ecogen-hsb.pd f The 15kW EcoGen has the same footprint as the 6kW EcoGen (LP only) and is natural gas or LP gas capable. The generator has a constant frequency / variable speed AVR based on electrical demand. Also, 500 run hours between oil changes. And a 3-year or 2000 hour warranty. http://gens.lccdn.com/generaccorporate/media/library/content/all-products/ge nerators/home-generators/ecogen-series/ecogen-warranty-0j1629-revb.pdf Regards, Gary Willett Icarus Engineering & Solar Services LLC On 4/9/15 9:56 AM, Dana wrote: I agree but full load charging usually only lasts but a few minutes as the inverter charge rate drops readily as voltage rises. 8300 watt -10,000 watts or 13000 watts the point is why we are installing air cooled throw away generators that run so fast & hot that they need to be replaced in 2,000 hours, not to mention the fuel consumed at 80 MPH? Is there a slow speed (1200-1800 rpm) water cooled 8-13 KW generator out there? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: Jerry Shafer [mailto:jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 7:02 PM To: dana at solarwork.com; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators We don't install anything smaller then a 13 k its air cooled but works well, as far as the numbers you have, Mine are somewhat different I use max potential load and max potential charge as when the batteries are low the genny must not only supply the home but also charge the bank back up at a reasonable rate, so if the loads are high and the genny only has enough to maintain that load then what about the batteries plus I only use 75% of the genny rating for optimum or improved duty cycle. This is only me and I am sure every shop has there own math. Jerry On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Dana wrote: Hey All - I just got off of a phone call with my Onan generator supplier. Last conversation with Kohler was the same story basically. I was informed that their smallest water cooled generator, the RS22 (22 KW) is now no longer "rated "for off grid. They actually called me to confirm that this generator was for backup power to a utility inter connected house. Tier 4 generators in the EPA CFR 40 is the Federal code what covers this, & you are allowed 100 hours of run time for standby power and maintenance per year. Q - Why am I using ridiculous sized generators for something that an 82-8300 watt generator does just fine? A - The EPA current requirements, a shrinking economy, & manufacturers that have to meet very expensive air quality compliance. The Penalty - If you get caught running a "standby power only" generator the fine is now $39,000 per day! Now I am far from a polluting kind of individual and all for air quality but this is getting the best of us. The 13KW air cooled generators are only good for 2000 hours, & the water cooled go 20 years of moderate usage but cost a boat load. I hate having the "Generator" talk with a new client they look at me like I am crazy. So the air cooled units are basically throwaways and the 22KW units are way more than we need and what a client needs to spend money on, unless you are at 10,000 ft el. If you figure 30 amps/120 VAC input per inverter +/- x 2 = 7.2KW plus say 10-15% fudge or elevation factors would require an 8200-8300 watt generator. Air cooled at 3600 RPM = 80 MPH & 1800 RPM = 40 MPH. Even if the generator were a bit smaller, ran slow (1200-1800 rpm) and ran a bit longer that would be acceptable. So, why are we installing even 13KW air cooled or 22 KW water generators? There is a business opportunity here folks. What are you all installing? Why? Is it reliable? Would you use it on your house? Thanks for sharing all the wisdom and knowledge. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 - No FAX Line "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 19:50:10 2015 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 19:50:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators In-Reply-To: <01a001d07242$54a175e0$fde461a0$@com> References: <01a001d07242$54a175e0$fde461a0$@com> Message-ID: I don't understand the inference that you can only install an air cooled propane high speed generator. Generac has a 15kW watercooled Diesel that runs at 1800, these are nice units, inexpensive, aluminium enclosures and should be very long life units. http://gens.lccdn.com/generaccorporate/media/library/content/all-products/generators/business-generators/protector-series/0k4729-protector-series-diesel-spec-sheet.pdf The reason your ecogen takes a lot of standby power is the controller includes the battery charger. If you don't keep the battery charged it is not going to be very reliable. However, you could probably put a switch on the T1 circuit to turn that off if you wanted to save the power, but the generator won't auto start then. If you don't care about that, use a timer to turn it on during daytime to charge the battery while there is sun. I'll pass on the concern about high standby draw to Generac. On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 5:23 PM, Dana wrote: > Hey All – > > > > I just got off of a phone call with my Onan generator supplier. Last > conversation with Kohler was the same story basically. > > > > I was informed that their smallest water cooled generator, the RS22 (22 > KW) is now no longer “rated “for off grid. They actually called me to > confirm that this generator was for backup power to a utility inter > connected house. Tier 4 generators in the EPA CFR 40 is the Federal code > what covers this, & you are allowed 100 hours of run time for standby power > and maintenance per year. > > Q - Why am I using ridiculous sized generators for something that an > 82-8300 watt generator does just fine? > > A - The EPA current requirements, a shrinking economy, & manufacturers > that have to meet very expensive air quality compliance. > > The Penalty - If you get caught running a “standby power only” generator > the fine is now $39,000 per day! > > Now I am far from a polluting kind of individual and all for air quality > but this is getting the best of us. The 13KW air cooled generators are only > good for 2000 hours, & the water cooled go 20 years of moderate usage but > cost a boat load. I hate having the “Generator” talk with a new client they > look at me like I am crazy. So the air cooled units are basically > throwaways and the 22KW units are way more than we need and what a client > needs to spend money on, unless you are at 10,000 ft el. > > > > If you figure 30 amps/120 VAC input per inverter +/- x 2 = 7.2KW plus say > 10-15% fudge or elevation factors would require an 8200-8300 watt > generator. Air cooled at 3600 RPM = 80 MPH & 1800 RPM = 40 MPH. Even if > the generator were a bit smaller, ran slow (1200-1800 rpm) and ran a bit > longer that would be acceptable. > > So, why are we installing even 13KW air cooled or 22 KW water generators? > > There is a business opportunity here folks. > > > > What are you all installing? > > Why? > > Is it reliable? > > Would you use it on your house? > > > > Thanks for sharing all the wisdom and knowledge. > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > *Dana Orzel* > > *Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136* > > *E* - dana at solarwork.com - *Web* - solarwork.com > > *O* - 970.626.5253 *C *- 208.721.7003 - No FAX Line > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 22:43:02 2015 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 20:43:02 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators References: Message-ID: <6BC6F578-30B2-404F-B8C4-6247C387F37E@gmail.com> Drake, We have installed a few of the 6kW EcoGen units, and they have been pretty reliable thus far. The oldest one has about 700 hours on it now, and we haven't had any major issues with it. However, I have to agree with Ray about the power-sucking on-board electronics. It is annoying to deal with whether you use a small module to keep the starting battery charged or whether you connect to the inverter and accept the 24/7 power draw. In addition, even though our units haven't given any major trouble, I'm somewhat disappointed in the quality. The engines just seem cheaply made, with lots of plastic parts. The unit we have out there that runs the most seems to leak oily vapor from somewhere- I think from the plastic air filter housing/pcv valve assembly, and that makes a nasty mess inside the enclosure. Don't get me started on the "240V conversion kit", which is essentially a $10 2-pole Siemens breaker with a short wire pigtail that goes for $200+. So, -fairly reliable- thus far for me at least, but with definite shortcomings. Luke Christy NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 CoSEIA Certified PV Installer Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO. 81144 SGSRenewables at Gmail.com 719.588.3044 www.sgsrenewables.com Message: 4 Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2015 14:38:44 -0400 From: Drake Are people still happy with the Generac EcoGen? Has anyone tried the 15 KW yet? Hopefully it won't get booted from off grid status. From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Thu Apr 9 23:35:45 2015 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 20:35:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators Message-ID: I'll echo the avoid Generac, at least under 50 kW or so. When people are price shopping between cheapo generators I sarcastically suggest they get 3 of the cheap ones, then there is a good chance one will actually work when needed. The 10 year ago model of the Onan / Cummins RS12,000 was a great LPG generator. Then they went and put a fancy computer board in them with the associated parasitic power draw issue so made it no longer suited to off-grid. We have been using the Cummins Onan Commercial Mobile series for many remote off-grid sites recreational or commercial ie repeaters. 2880 RPM. Available in 2.5, 3.6, 5.5 and 6.5 kW sizes, LPG or gasoline. Three wire remote start units that just work. Just a bit small for larger sites, where we typically move into a diesel. We have several dozen of them out there and they work reliably. The models have been the same for many years, these are used by OEM's for integration into all manner of RVs, ambulances, etc. Have many units over 7,000 hrs of operation. They start pretty reliably down to -30oC. For customers who are in it for the long haul with larger power demands I generally move them to a small 1800 RPM diesel, Kubota, Isuzu, Yanmar brands. Install it properly maintain it properly and will get at least 30,000 hrs from it. Twice the cost to buy but half the cost to run. Wins in the long haul. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of Dana Sent: April 9, 2015 2:18 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators I am going out on a limb here - In 26 years of installing generators I have only seen (2) Generacs that were actually working, one was a 30 KW and the other smaller. I have removed/replaced in excess of (25) Generacs that have died for a variety of issues: fire, controller blew up, engine seized (several times) over that time span. Primarily because the owners were totally fed up with getting them fixed and having to rent a temp replacement while the wreck was in the shop. For some of these people they had to drive 2+ hours each way to get it to an approved service center. Enough said I will stop there. I am aware of the ECOGen and again it is 2,700 to 3,600 RPM. 3,600 RPM is 80 miles per hour with an air cooled engine. How do you expect long and reliable life there? Interesting on the 2000 hour warranty that seems to be the hour limit on most air cooled 3,600 rpm unit where they fail, & Oil changes at 40,000 miles exceeds AMSOILs synthetic 25,000 mile best oil rating by 15,000 miles. However the prior 26 years of experience have taught me to be very careful here. I am curious as to actual life on these units and other folk's experience. Chime in here... Still looking & voting for a water cooled slow rpm 10 KW............. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Gary Willett Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2015 2:41 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators Dana: Take a look at the new Generac EcoGen 15kW that was purpose built for a renewable energy system* * including an inverter, battery bank and alternative energy power source http://gens.lccdn.com/generaccorporate/media/library/content/all-products/generators/home-generators/ecogen-series/15kw-6103/0k8466-c-15kw-ecogen-hsb.pdf The 15kW EcoGen has the same footprint as the 6kW EcoGen (LP only) and is natural gas or LP gas capable. The generator has a constant frequency / variable speed AVR based on electrical demand. Also, 500 run hours between oil changes. And a 3-year or 2000 hour warranty. http://gens.lccdn.com/generaccorporate/media/library/content/all-products/generators/home-generators/ecogen-series/ecogen-warranty-0j1629-revb.pdf Regards, Gary Willett Icarus Engineering & Solar Services LLC On 4/9/15 9:56 AM, Dana wrote: I agree but full load charging usually only lasts but a few minutes as the inverter charge rate drops readily as voltage rises. 8300 watt -10,000 watts or 13000 watts the point is why we are installing air cooled throw away generators that run so fast & hot that they need to be replaced in 2,000 hours, not to mention the fuel consumed at 80 MPH? Is there a slow speed (1200-1800 rpm) water cooled 8-13 KW generator out there? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: Jerry Shafer [ mailto:jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 7:02 PM To: dana at solarwork.com; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators We don't install anything smaller then a 13 k its air cooled but works well, as far as the numbers you have, Mine are somewhat different I use max potential load and max potential charge as when the batteries are low the genny must not only supply the home but also charge the bank back up at a reasonable rate, so if the loads are high and the genny only has enough to maintain that load then what about the batteries plus I only use 75% of the genny rating for optimum or improved duty cycle. This is only me and I am sure every shop has there own math. Jerry On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Dana < dana at solarwork.com> wrote: Hey All - I just got off of a phone call with my Onan generator supplier. Last conversation with Kohler was the same story basically. I was informed that their smallest water cooled generator, the RS22 (22 KW) is now no longer "rated "for off grid. They actually called me to confirm that this generator was for backup power to a utility inter connected house. Tier 4 generators in the EPA CFR 40 is the Federal code what covers this, & you are allowed 100 hours of run time for standby power and maintenance per year. Q - Why am I using ridiculous sized generators for something that an 82-8300 watt generator does just fine? A - The EPA current requirements, a shrinking economy, & manufacturers that have to meet very expensive air quality compliance. The Penalty - If you get caught running a "standby power only" generator the fine is now $39,000 per day! Now I am far from a polluting kind of individual and all for air quality but this is getting the best of us. The 13KW air cooled generators are only good for 2000 hours, & the water cooled go 20 years of moderate usage but cost a boat load. I hate having the "Generator" talk with a new client they look at me like I am crazy. So the air cooled units are basically throwaways and the 22KW units are way more than we need and what a client needs to spend money on, unless you are at 10,000 ft el. If you figure 30 amps/120 VAC input per inverter +/- x 2 = 7.2KW plus say 10-15% fudge or elevation factors would require an 8200-8300 watt generator. Air cooled at 3600 RPM = 80 MPH & 1800 RPM = 40 MPH. Even if the generator were a bit smaller, ran slow (1200-1800 rpm) and ran a bit longer that would be acceptable. So, why are we installing even 13KW air cooled or 22 KW water generators? There is a business opportunity here folks. What are you all installing? Why? Is it reliable? Would you use it on your house? Thanks for sharing all the wisdom and knowledge. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 - No FAX Line "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Fri Apr 10 00:08:54 2015 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 21:08:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators References: <01a001d07242$54a175e0$fde461a0$@com> <007201d072d5$5b431d70$11c95850$@com> <5526E3D0.1060202@IcarusSolarServices.com><5526EC7F.8090107@solarray.com> <00e201d0730c$b6e3d250$24ab76f0$@com> Message-ID: <6B5C426E0FDC4EFDBD0BFC27BC53DE82@D8XG8YH1> Dana, Exact same experience with the Kohler 14KW. I don't think I'm even getting a week of cloudy weather to "lose" the battery with a 30W PV. Also, Chris mentioned its the battery charger pulling (the majority?) of the phantom load. It has always been my understanding that start batteries are higher in calcium and have a very low inherent discharge rate. It may be the battery charger that is pulling the power to keep the battery charged but to me it seems that it is because the battery is being drawn down by the control board. Bill Feather River Solar Electric solar powered since 1982 ----- Original Message ----- From: Dana To: 'RE-wrenches' Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2015 2:32 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators KOHLERS RSA14 - 14 KW is the same I have to run and AC circuit to the gen to run a battery charger from the inverter. A 30 Watt PV module in the winter is not enough if it is cloudy for a week. The battery dies and has frozen. Again the control board is too much draw and does way too much. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Apr 10 01:17:16 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 19:17:16 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators In-Reply-To: <6B5C426E0FDC4EFDBD0BFC27BC53DE82@D8XG8YH1> References: <01a001d07242$54a175e0$fde461a0$@com> <007201d072d5$5b431d70$11c95850$@com> <5526E3D0.1060202@IcarusSolarServices.com> <5526EC7F.8090107@solarray.com> <00e201d0730c$b6e3d250$24ab76f0$@com> <6B5C426E0FDC4EFDBD0BFC27BC53DE82@D8XG8YH1> Message-ID: Wrenches The "off grid" i used to install had a 50 to 75 mA draw they did require a battery charger not much but if there was no charger the "on board" processor will kill the battery in less then a week. All the grid versions had a charger in the switch gear. Jerry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Fri Apr 10 09:21:49 2015 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 07:21:49 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators In-Reply-To: References: <01a001d07242$54a175e0$fde461a0$@com> <007201d072d5$5b431d70$11c95850$@com> <5526E3D0.1060202@IcarusSolarServices.com> <5526EC7F.8090107@solarray.com> <00e201d0730c$b6e3d250$24ab76f0$@com> <6B5C426E0FDC4EFDBD0BFC27BC53DE82@D8XG8YH1> Message-ID: Has anyone else used the Gillette SPS series? We have had good luck with them. Petty simple unit, made in Indiana..... Jeremy Rodriguez All Solar, Inc. 1463 M Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > On Apr 9, 2015, at 11:17 PM, "Jerry Shafer" wrote: > > Wrenches > The "off grid" i used to install had a 50 to 75 mA draw they did require a battery charger not much but if there was no charger the "on board" processor will kill the battery in less then a week. All the grid versions had a charger in the switch gear. > Jerry > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From howie at suncatchervt.com Fri Apr 10 10:50:13 2015 From: howie at suncatchervt.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 10:50:13 -0400 (Eas) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators Message-ID: <49418.73.167.49.246.1428677413.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com> We have always recommended the Kohler 8.5 over the years, even though they have stopped warranting them for off-grid several years ago (a local dealer is willing to work with clients to make this work...) . We are definitely interested in finding a reliable off-grid generator that is warranted as such, that we can recommend. I have been told by a reliable source, that the Generac water cooled gennies are a low rpm, reliable beast, completely different than the air cooled line, although I have no direct experience with them. This is from a dealer that won't sell their air cooled generators. Curios to hear if anyone has used them. Howie -- Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ Catamount Solar, LLC Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric & Hot Water Incentive Partner http://www.CatamountSolar.com 802-272-0004 From howie at suncatchervt.com Fri Apr 10 11:07:56 2015 From: howie at suncatchervt.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 11:07:56 -0400 (Eas) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid deep well pumps Message-ID: <49610.73.167.49.246.1428678476.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com> Hi All, I'm trying to locate archives about deep well pumps with little luck. Particularly information comparing Grundfos to other viable options (for a pump at about 200 feet with a static water level of about 70 feet) 120vAC off-grid VFX3648 system. I am just making a recommendation to my client, and have seen the Grundfos controller be somewhat susceptible to lightening surges, which is likely to be an issue in this location. If someone could point me to pertinent threads, I'd appreciate it. Or if anyone wanted to chime in with their own experience, that would be very helpful. Thanks in advance, Howie -- Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ Catamount Solar, LLC Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric & Hot Water Incentive Partner http://www.CatamountSolar.com 802-272-0004 From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri Apr 10 11:03:55 2015 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 08:03:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87fba238725d0eaaff1dbdfd3fde0441.squirrel@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> You Wrote: We have been using the Cummins Onan Commercial Mobile series for many remote off-grid sites recreational or commercial ie repeaters. 2880 RPM. Available in 2.5, 3.6, 5.5 and 6.5 kW sizes, LPG or gasoline. ************************************************** I thought these ran into difficulties with the EPA decades ago. These were great. Where is a good source for them? From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Apr 10 11:24:27 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 08:24:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid deep well pumps In-Reply-To: <49610.73.167.49.246.1428678476.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com> References: <49610.73.167.49.246.1428678476.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com> Message-ID: <6FC99D75-1951-46D6-BEED-7AE7E9510822@gmail.com> Hi howie, You don't need the CU-200 for the. SQF Another choice is the SQ. Soft start, but not as efficient as the SQF, way cheaper. Jay Peltz power. > On Apr 10, 2015, at 8:07 AM, "Howie Michaelson" wrote: > > Hi All, > > I'm trying to locate archives about deep well pumps with little luck. > Particularly information comparing Grundfos to other viable options (for a > pump at about 200 feet with a static water level of about 70 feet) 120vAC > off-grid VFX3648 system. I am just making a recommendation to my client, > and have seen the Grundfos controller be somewhat susceptible to > lightening surges, which is likely to be an issue in this location. If > someone could point me to pertinent threads, I'd appreciate it. Or if > anyone wanted to chime in with their own experience, that would be very > helpful. > > Thanks in advance, > Howie > -- > Howie Michaelson > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ > > Catamount Solar, LLC > Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service > VT Solar Electric & Hot Water Incentive Partner > http://www.CatamountSolar.com > 802-272-0004 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From ray at solarray.com Fri Apr 10 12:43:10 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 10:43:10 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid deep well pumps In-Reply-To: <6FC99D75-1951-46D6-BEED-7AE7E9510822@gmail.com> References: <49610.73.167.49.246.1428678476.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com> <6FC99D75-1951-46D6-BEED-7AE7E9510822@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5527FD9E.4050607@solarray.com> SQE is what we use. Much cheaper than the SQF line, but still has no start up surge, and is constant pressure so you save money and space on not needing a large pressure tank. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 4/10/2015 9:24 AM, Jay wrote: > Hi howie, > > You don't need the CU-200 for the. SQF > > > Another choice is the SQ. Soft start, but not as efficient as the SQF, way cheaper. > > > Jay > Peltz power. > > > > >> On Apr 10, 2015, at 8:07 AM, "Howie Michaelson" wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> >> I'm trying to locate archives about deep well pumps with little luck. >> Particularly information comparing Grundfos to other viable options (for a >> pump at about 200 feet with a static water level of about 70 feet) 120vAC >> off-grid VFX3648 system. I am just making a recommendation to my client, >> and have seen the Grundfos controller be somewhat susceptible to >> lightening surges, which is likely to be an issue in this location. If >> someone could point me to pertinent threads, I'd appreciate it. Or if >> anyone wanted to chime in with their own experience, that would be very >> helpful. >> >> Thanks in advance, >> Howie >> -- >> Howie Michaelson >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ >> >> Catamount Solar, LLC >> Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service >> VT Solar Electric & Hot Water Incentive Partner >> http://www.CatamountSolar.com >> 802-272-0004 >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Fri Apr 10 12:52:17 2015 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 09:52:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators Message-ID: Up here in Canada, there are no rules or regulations on pollution from generators. And so thus EPA rules aren't an issue. I kinda wish there was, though, as the amount of waste and un-needed air pollution is just staggering. 100's of remote sites with small generators, operating inefficiently, 24x7x365.... As for sourcing, we buy generators directly from Cummins. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sent: April 10, 2015 8:04 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators You Wrote: We have been using the Cummins Onan Commercial Mobile series for many remote off-grid sites recreational or commercial ie repeaters. 2880 RPM. Available in 2.5, 3.6, 5.5 and 6.5 kW sizes, LPG or gasoline. ************************************************** I thought these ran into difficulties with the EPA decades ago. These were great. Where is a good source for them? _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From howie at suncatchervt.com Fri Apr 10 13:25:15 2015 From: howie at suncatchervt.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 13:25:15 -0400 (Eas) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid deep well pumps Message-ID: <52528.73.167.49.246.1428686715.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com> Thanks everyone for the feedback - as always the best source of hands on info anywhere! So as I understand it, the 2 basic choices are the SQ,SQE line or the SQFlex line. Advantages of the SQE are: * cheaper * Constant pressure Advantages of the SQFlex are: * More efficient (how much?) * Can run on AC or DC Both are soft start, and both can run without the controller. No controller looses the display readout and a couple other smaller bells and whistles, but otherwise no operational change. I haven't be able to determine the difference between the SQ & SQE lines. Are there any durability differences between the SQ, SQE, and SQF lines? Howie -- Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ Catamount Solar, LLC Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric & Hot Water Incentive Partner http://www.CatamountSolar.com 802-272-0004 From ray at solarray.com Fri Apr 10 13:30:19 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 11:30:19 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid deep well pumps In-Reply-To: <52528.73.167.49.246.1428686715.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com> References: <52528.73.167.49.246.1428686715.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com> Message-ID: <552808AB.9090007@solarray.com> I think you've started a good rundown of the three pump lines, I believe they all use the same basic multistage pump head. The SQ line has just a simple AC motor; no constant pressure, and the usual starting surge associated with regular AC submersibles. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 4/10/2015 11:25 AM, Howie Michaelson wrote: > Thanks everyone for the feedback - as always the best source of hands on > info anywhere! > > So as I understand it, the 2 basic choices are the SQ,SQE line or the > SQFlex line. > Advantages of the SQE are: > * cheaper > * Constant pressure > Advantages of the SQFlex are: > * More efficient (how much?) > * Can run on AC or DC > > Both are soft start, and both can run without the controller. No > controller looses the display readout and a couple other smaller bells and > whistles, but otherwise no operational change. I haven't be able to > determine the difference between the SQ & SQE lines. Are there any > durability differences between the SQ, SQE, and SQF lines? > > Howie From allan at sindelarsolar.com Fri Apr 10 13:52:09 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 11:52:09 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid deep well pumps In-Reply-To: <52528.73.167.49.246.1428686715.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com> References: <52528.73.167.49.246.1428686715.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com> Message-ID: <55280DC9.8000302@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Fri Apr 10 13:52:54 2015 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jefferson Jarvis) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 12:52:54 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid deep well pumps In-Reply-To: <552808AB.9090007@solarray.com> References: <52528.73.167.49.246.1428686715.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com> <552808AB.9090007@solarray.com> Message-ID: <55280DF6.6010509@aprsworld.com> The SQ is not just a simple AC motor. It has the soft start and pretty much all of the same features as the SQE, besides the variable speed that makes the constant pressure work well. http://www.grundfos.com/products/find-product/sq.html I use SQ on my own two wells. Both run perfectly on Magnum MS4024PAE (single inverter). Both are around 300 ft deep with ~100' static water level. Use 3/4 HP in one and 1 HP in the other. No starting surges. Can't even tell it is running. Can run 12 AWG wire out and down the well and voltage drop won't cause them to run any slower. -James Jarvis APRS World, LLC http://www.aprsworld.com On 4/10/2015 12:30 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > I think you've started a good rundown of the three pump lines, I believe > they all use the same basic multistage pump head. The SQ line has just > a simple AC motor; no constant pressure, and the usual starting surge > associated with regular AC submersibles. > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > On 4/10/2015 11:25 AM, Howie Michaelson wrote: >> Thanks everyone for the feedback - as always the best source of hands on >> info anywhere! >> >> So as I understand it, the 2 basic choices are the SQ,SQE line or the >> SQFlex line. >> Advantages of the SQE are: >> * cheaper >> * Constant pressure >> Advantages of the SQFlex are: >> * More efficient (how much?) >> * Can run on AC or DC >> >> Both are soft start, and both can run without the controller. No >> controller looses the display readout and a couple other smaller bells >> and >> whistles, but otherwise no operational change. I haven't be able to >> determine the difference between the SQ & SQE lines. Are there any >> durability differences between the SQ, SQE, and SQF lines? >> >> Howie > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 www.aprsworld.com From dana at solarwork.com Fri Apr 10 12:44:20 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 10:44:20 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid deep well pumps In-Reply-To: <49610.73.167.49.246.1428678476.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com> References: <49610.73.167.49.246.1428678476.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com> Message-ID: <003301d073ad$a5f1ad40$f1d507c0$@com> We have had several CU200 fail they are not the most stable controller & I do not think that they are required. The soft start is built into the motor on the pump. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Howie Michaelson Sent: Friday, April 10, 2015 9:08 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid deep well pumps Hi All, I'm trying to locate archives about deep well pumps with little luck. Particularly information comparing Grundfos to other viable options (for a pump at about 200 feet with a static water level of about 70 feet) 120vAC off-grid VFX3648 system. I am just making a recommendation to my client, and have seen the Grundfos controller be somewhat susceptible to lightening surges, which is likely to be an issue in this location. If someone could point me to pertinent threads, I'd appreciate it. Or if anyone wanted to chime in with their own experience, that would be very helpful. Thanks in advance, Howie -- Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ Catamount Solar, LLC Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric & Hot Water Incentive Partner http://www.CatamountSolar.com 802-272-0004 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From dana at solarwork.com Fri Apr 10 12:46:16 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 10:46:16 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid deep well pumps In-Reply-To: <5527FD9E.4050607@solarray.com> References: <49610.73.167.49.246.1428678476.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com> <6FC99D75-1951-46D6-BEED-7AE7E9510822@gmail.com> <5527FD9E.4050607@solarray.com> Message-ID: <003401d073ad$dd3aa950$97affbf0$@com> Ditto after much research in to a variety of options AC/DC/ Battery direct and 230 VAC inverted we selected the SQE for our next off grid project. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Friday, April 10, 2015 10:43 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid deep well pumps SQE is what we use. Much cheaper than the SQF line, but still has no start up surge, and is constant pressure so you save money and space on not needing a large pressure tank. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 4/10/2015 9:24 AM, Jay wrote: > Hi howie, > > You don't need the CU-200 for the. SQF > > > Another choice is the SQ. Soft start, but not as efficient as the SQF, way cheaper. > > > Jay > Peltz power. > > > > >> On Apr 10, 2015, at 8:07 AM, "Howie Michaelson" wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> >> I'm trying to locate archives about deep well pumps with little luck. >> Particularly information comparing Grundfos to other viable options >> (for a pump at about 200 feet with a static water level of about 70 >> feet) 120vAC off-grid VFX3648 system. I am just making a >> recommendation to my client, and have seen the Grundfos controller be >> somewhat susceptible to lightening surges, which is likely to be an >> issue in this location. If someone could point me to pertinent >> threads, I'd appreciate it. Or if anyone wanted to chime in with >> their own experience, that would be very helpful. >> >> Thanks in advance, >> Howie >> -- >> Howie Michaelson >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ >> >> Catamount Solar, LLC >> Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric & Hot >> Water Incentive Partner http://www.CatamountSolar.com >> 802-272-0004 >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillis >> t.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From dana at solarwork.com Fri Apr 10 13:26:02 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 11:26:02 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid deep well pumps In-Reply-To: <52528.73.167.49.246.1428686715.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com> References: <52528.73.167.49.246.1428686715.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com> Message-ID: <008901d073b3$6bae7540$430b5fc0$@com> I would call Brian Teitelbaum (forgive my spelling Brian) at AEE for pump advice, @ 805.242.7856 He helped me look at my options a while back. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Howie Michaelson Sent: Friday, April 10, 2015 11:25 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid deep well pumps Thanks everyone for the feedback - as always the best source of hands on info anywhere! So as I understand it, the 2 basic choices are the SQ,SQE line or the SQFlex line. Advantages of the SQE are: * cheaper * Constant pressure Advantages of the SQFlex are: * More efficient (how much?) * Can run on AC or DC Both are soft start, and both can run without the controller. No controller looses the display readout and a couple other smaller bells and whistles, but otherwise no operational change. I haven't be able to determine the difference between the SQ & SQE lines. Are there any durability differences between the SQ, SQE, and SQF lines? Howie -- Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ Catamount Solar, LLC Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric & Hot Water Incentive Partner http://www.CatamountSolar.com 802-272-0004 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sat Apr 11 10:10:48 2015 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2015 07:10:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid deep well pumps In-Reply-To: <55280DC9.8000302@sindelarsolar.com> References: <52528.73.167.49.246.1428686715.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com> <55280DC9.8000302@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: How long do these stay in the hole before the need to be maintained or replaced? Do they last as well as standard AC deep well pumps? > I believe that the SQE has the constant-pressure capability, and the > SQ doesn't. I have never used it in that manner, due to the idle > load. Either can be used with a pressure switch.
>
> Ray, both are soft-start AC. From the manual: > > From toddcory at finestplanet.com Sat Apr 11 12:47:48 2015 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2015 09:47:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid deep well pumps In-Reply-To: References: <52528.73.167.49.246.1428686715.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com> <55280DC9.8000302@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <1428770868.775314524@webmail.finestplanet.com> i would also like to hear service reports on this too, specifically the standard grundfos centrifugal pumps with dc motor (SQF). helical rotors wear faster, so of course their life would not be as long. by comparison, i have a 26 year old, 3/4 hp standard well pump which is still fully operational and in irrigation season, pumps ~2500 gallons a day. todd On Saturday, April 11, 2015 7:10am, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org said: > How long do these stay in the hole before the need to be maintained or > replaced? Do they last as well as standard AC deep well pumps? > > > > I believe that the SQE has the constant-pressure capability, and the > > SQ doesn't. I have never used it in that manner, due to the idle > > load. Either can be used with a pressure switch.
> >
> > Ray, both are soft-start AC. From the manual: > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Sat Apr 11 13:36:46 2015 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (PRP) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2015 11:36:46 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid deep well pumps In-Reply-To: <1428770868.775314524@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <52528.73.167.49.246.1428686715.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com> <55280DC9.8000302@sindelarsolar.com> <1428770868.775314524@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: <35A27C3D026046AFBB6C91806AEE7509@pineridgeproducts.com> I have used a 1.5hp SQ for over 10 years with no problems is set at 350 feet and our house tank PSI is set at 60 PSI. We drip irrigate a large area and stock water for cattle. Works flawless on our system, the 240 V soft start is real nice to our slow acting Magnum inverters. Logan -- Pine Ridge Products LLC 1646 East Highwood Rd Belt, MT 59412 On Saturday, April 11, 2015 at 10:47 -Apr 11, toddcory at finestplanet.com wrote: > > i would also like to hear service reports on this too, specifically the standard grundfos centrifugal pumps with dc motor (SQF). helical rotors wear faster, so of course their life would not be as long. > > by comparison, i have a 26 year old, 3/4 hp standard well pump which is still fully operational and in irrigation season, pumps ~2500 gallons a day. > > > > > > todd > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Saturday, April 11, 2015 7:10am, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (mailto:drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) said: > > > > > > How long do these stay in the hole before the need to be maintained or > > replaced? Do they last as well as standard AC deep well pumps? > > > > > > > I believe that the SQE has the constant-pressure capability, and the > > > SQ doesn't. I have never used it in that manner, due to the idle > > > load. Either can be used with a pressure switch.
> > >
> > > Ray, both are soft-start AC. From the manual: > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org (mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org) > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm (http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm) > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org (http://www.members.re-wrenches.org) > > > > > > > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org (mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org) > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm (http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm) > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org (http://www.members.re-wrenches.org) > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Richard.L.Ratico at valley.net Sun Apr 12 07:44:20 2015 From: Richard.L.Ratico at valley.net (Richard L Ratico) Date: 12 Apr 2015 07:44:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid deep well pumps Message-ID: <178093193@retriever.VALLEY.NET> 1/2 HP, 120V SQ. Going on 20 years or so. No problems. Great pump. Dick Ratico --- You wrote: How long do these stay in the hole before the need to be maintained or replaced? Do they last as well as standard AC deep well pumps? --- end of quote --- From frenergy at psln.com Sun Apr 12 11:14:47 2015 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2015 08:14:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid deep well pumps References: <52528.73.167.49.246.1428686715.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com><55280DC9.8000302@sindelarsolar.com> <1428770868.775314524@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: Maybe equally as important is performance. I also have a conventional 1/2 HP 120 vac Sta-rite submersible supplying our water for 21 years with no issues. It certainly has it's surge at start however the 2, OBFX3524's (120 vac only) running it seems to have dealt with it for many years. Water elevation during pumping is at 110 feet and then pumped 83' feet vertical to open discharge storage tank. So at 193' of head, I'm getting 5.2 gal/min. It would be great to know how the grundfos compares...in real life, not from a chart. Bill Feather River Solar Electric ----- Original Message ----- From: toddcory at finestplanet.com To: RE-wrenches Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2015 9:47 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid deep well pumps i would also like to hear service reports on this too, specifically the standard grundfos centrifugal pumps with dc motor (SQF). helical rotors wear faster, so of course their life would not be as long. by comparison, i have a 26 year old, 3/4 hp standard well pump which is still fully operational and in irrigation season, pumps ~2500 gallons a day. todd On Saturday, April 11, 2015 7:10am, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org said: > How long do these stay in the hole before the need to be maintained or > replaced? Do they last as well as standard AC deep well pumps? > > > > I believe that the SQE has the constant-pressure capability, and the > > SQ doesn't. I have never used it in that manner, due to the idle > > load. Either can be used with a pressure switch.
> >
> > Ray, both are soft-start AC. From the manual: > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Sun Apr 12 11:18:02 2015 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2015 08:18:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RTS interference? References: <178093193@retriever.VALLEY.NET> Message-ID: Hey folks, Has anyone found a problem running a RTS cable in FMC conduit with the battery-to-inverter cables? Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric From jason at westcoastsustainables.com Sun Apr 12 13:33:45 2015 From: jason at westcoastsustainables.com (Jason Andrade) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2015 10:33:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grundfos crflex Message-ID: <2f3vlm7d2bmqvexcbh8uyif9.1428859309039@email.android.com> I see grundfos has the new crflex surface pump out, has anyone installed this that can review it.  I recently started using the Dankoff Surface pumps and they are awesome but I need one that can pump off generator or pv and I have had good experiences with the grundfos seflex in the past Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org Date:04/12/2015 10:15 AM (GMT-08:00) To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 8, Issue 103 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Sun Apr 12 15:05:44 2015 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2015 12:05:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid deep well pumps Message-ID: We have been supplying and installing the SQFlex series for about a decade. I'd estimate something around 80-100 pumps out there, some PV direct filling cisterns, some inverter powered directly pressurizing. We have had a couple failures of the dry run switch, in water sources that were high in minerals (sensor gets all covered in scale). Had one of the very first pumps installed motor failed a year ago, replaced with new and back it goes down the hole. Just had first CU200 failure in queue to diagnose soon. I consider the SQFlex a very solid product. But the product does not have the multi-decade field experience so hard to say how long will last. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of toddcory at finestplanet.com Sent: April 11, 2015 9:48 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid deep well pumps i would also like to hear service reports on this too, specifically the standard grundfos centrifugal pumps with dc motor (SQF). helical rotors wear faster, so of course their life would not be as long. by comparison, i have a 26 year old, 3/4 hp standard well pump which is still fully operational and in irrigation season, pumps ~2500 gallons a day. todd On Saturday, April 11, 2015 7:10am, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org said: > How long do these stay in the hole before the need to be maintained or > replaced? Do they last as well as standard AC deep well pumps? > > > > I believe that the SQE has the constant-pressure capability, and the > > SQ doesn't. I have never used it in that manner, due to the idle > > load. Either can be used with a pressure switch.
> >
> > Ray, both are soft-start AC. From the manual: > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Mon Apr 13 16:19:50 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2015 14:19:50 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators In-Reply-To: <007201d072d5$5b431d70$11c95850$@com> References: <01a001d07242$54a175e0$fde461a0$@com> <007201d072d5$5b431d70$11c95850$@com> Message-ID: <552C24E6.5040609@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Mon Apr 13 16:30:36 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2015 14:30:36 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators In-Reply-To: <5526EC7F.8090107@solarray.com> References: <01a001d07242$54a175e0$fde461a0$@com> <007201d072d5$5b431d70$11c95850$@com> <5526E3D0.1060202@IcarusSolarServices.com> <5526EC7F.8090107@solarray.com> Message-ID: <552C276C.2090605@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Mon Apr 13 18:59:35 2015 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2015 15:59:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Acid containment - large plastic box In-Reply-To: <551C6D7F.3020505@sindelarsolar.com> References: <26907.66.220.236.87.1427653513.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com><55197952.7090302@sindelarsolar.com> <90F92F62-1AA2-4A84-A31F-E4EB5A9565CA@skyfireenergy.com> <139322EF87BA41939E608E5DDFC43285@D8XG8YH1> <97c8ac0e1684278699611ba28a0dfc60@mail.gmail.com> <551C6D7F.3020505@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <26a393e9bbcb57d61e9813cf104774b7@mail.gmail.com> Allan, Sorry for the delay – we installed this particular system several years ago and I was having a hard time tracking down the info on the box. The box we used was sold by West Marine as a Fiberglass Dock Box: http://www.westmarine.com/buy/west-marine--fiberglass-dock-boxes--P005_157_002_513 One obvious downside as you can see in the first photo I sent was that the dimensions weren’t quite right to fit two rows of L16s side by side. So, it took a little extra wire to connect the batteries together. Best, August Luminalt *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Allan Sindelar *Sent:* Wednesday, April 01, 2015 3:13 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Acid containment - large plastic box August, That's a nice enclosure in your attached photo, of a box that I have never seen before. Can you provide a manufacturer and website or other access, please? Allan *Allan Sindelar* *allan at sindelarsolar.com* NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* On 3/30/2015 11:35 AM, August Goers wrote: Bill, Off the shelf plastic tool boxes also work, we’ve used those in the past. You wouldn’t necessarily need to build a wood box around the plastic tool box(es) since they will hold up on their own. It all goes back to the size and number of batteries that you need and whether you can find a box that has appropriate dimensions. You’ve probably already considered this option, but I thought I’d mention it anyway. See attached pic as an example. Best, August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:*re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org* ] *On Behalf Of *frenergy *Sent:* Monday, March 30, 2015 10:19 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Acid containment Kirpal, Allen, Dana, Benn Yes, I'm curious about sealing laps, joints, corners, etc also. I've seen the PVC shower pan material...we'll see if its wide enough for our application, I always banked on about 3" up the side of a battery box would hold many gallons of acid. Benn, I did a search on this in the Wrench archives and someone mentioned the spray liner would soften (and then fail?) over time when exposed to acid. Bill ----- Original Message ----- *From:* *Benn Kilburn* *To:* *RE-wrenches* *Sent:* Monday, March 30, 2015 9:48 AM *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Acid containment Allan, How would you deal with a seam that happens to lay within the containment area? Do you seal/adhere it somehow? With what? Or do you find that you can get the liner sheets large enough that you just 'stuff it in' (for lack of a better term), and then in the corners do you just double it over to make a tight fit? Or make cuts in the corners...? Thanks, Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 On Mar 30, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Allan Sindelar <*allan at sindelarsolar.com* > wrote: Bill, We have lined plywood boxes with either EPDM roofing membrane or vinyl pond liner, depending on local availability, and both have worked well. Being a flexible sheet, it is folded up the sides and stapled above the containment zone. Allan *Allan Sindelar* *allan at sindelarsolar.com* NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* On 3/30/2015 10:03 AM, frenergy wrote: Fellow Wrenches, I just called Tap Plastics hoping they would solve my problem of battery acid containment within a plywood battery box. I was surprised by their response that the acrylic was not impervious to acid and polyethylene would not work because sealants nor caulking adhere to it properly. They did not have anything that would work. I've used those individual battery boxes from an auto parts store (~$12/each) but they take up more space than just the batteries. Has anyone ever used ice dam underpayment, like Grace? Better idea? Thanks for any advice, Bill Feather River Solar Electric _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: *RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org* Change listserver email address & settings: *http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org* List-Archive: *http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html* List rules & etiquette: *www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm* Check out or update participant bios: *www.members.re-wrenches.org* _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: *RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org* Change listserver email address & settings: *http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org* List-Archive: *http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html* List rules & etiquette: *www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm* Check out or update participant bios: *www.members.re-wrenches.org* ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: *RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org* Change listserver email address & settings: *http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org* List-Archive: *http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html* List rules & etiquette: *www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm* Check out or update participant bios: *www.members.re-wrenches.org* _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: *RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org* Change listserver email address & settings: *http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org* List-Archive: *http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html* List rules & etiquette: *www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm* Check out or update participant bios: *www.members.re-wrenches.org* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 20:17:41 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2015 14:17:41 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RTS interference? In-Reply-To: References: <178093193@retriever.VALLEY.NET> Message-ID: Never had a problem with DC . Jerry On Apr 12, 2015 6:16 AM, "frenergy" wrote: > Hey folks, > > Has anyone found a problem running a RTS cable in FMC conduit with > the battery-to-inverter cables? > > Thanks, > > Bill > Feather River Solar Electric > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reellison at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 22:26:17 2015 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2015 22:26:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RTS interference? In-Reply-To: References: <178093193@retriever.VALLEY.NET> Message-ID: <03b701d0765a$649672e0$2dc358a0$@com> Hate to ask, but, is it on the negative terminal? Bob From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Shafer Sent: Monday, April 13, 2015 8:18 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] RTS interference? Never had a problem with DC . Jerry On Apr 12, 2015 6:16 AM, "frenergy" wrote: Hey folks, Has anyone found a problem running a RTS cable in FMC conduit with the battery-to-inverter cables? Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Tue Apr 14 00:27:39 2015 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2015 21:27:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RTS interference? References: <178093193@retriever.VALLEY.NET> <03b701d0765a$649672e0$2dc358a0$@com> Message-ID: <589B53EE302A4041AAED253C7254689C@D8XG8YH1> Bob, To clarify, I'd like to run RTS sensor wires from an MX or FX through a three foot long, 2" flexible metal conduit that also has both of the pos and neg 4/0 battery-to-inverter cables in it. I was wondering about the effect of the RF, EMF or whatever else might have on the RTS wires for that 3 feet and the signal imposed (or not)back to the MX or FX. I usually stick the RTS itself on one of the battery cases in the middle of the pack. Thanks, Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: RE Ellison To: 'RE-wrenches' Sent: Monday, April 13, 2015 7:26 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] RTS interference? Hate to ask, but, is it on the negative terminal? Bob From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Shafer Sent: Monday, April 13, 2015 8:18 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] RTS interference? Never had a problem with DC . Jerry On Apr 12, 2015 6:16 AM, "frenergy" wrote: Hey folks, Has anyone found a problem running a RTS cable in FMC conduit with the battery-to-inverter cables? Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Tue Apr 14 08:41:38 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 06:41:38 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RTS interference? In-Reply-To: <589B53EE302A4041AAED253C7254689C@D8XG8YH1> References: <178093193@retriever.VALLEY.NET> <03b701d0765a$649672e0$2dc358a0$@com> <589B53EE302A4041AAED253C7254689C@D8XG8YH1> Message-ID: <552D0B02.3020801@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tech at aessolar.com Wed Apr 15 11:07:03 2015 From: tech at aessolar.com (Advanced Energy Solutions) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 10:07:03 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solexel investing Message-ID: I have a high level investor asking my opinion (he is my cousin) about http://solexel.com/attributes.php ? Check out this video https://vimeo.com/122593464 password Solexel with capital s Talked to Mark Ketstens (sp) CFO who quickly ran out of the ability to answer my technical questions and said he will refer me to their tech person David Morgan. R & D Factory in CA but expect to ramp up to a pilot 15 MG plant soon . Still needs UL testing. Expect to ship product Aug 2016 I found out some more information about their product. They claim that the cell is .40 thick (is regular one .150 or so?) which makes it flexible and that modules are extremely high voltage ( 432 Vdc) so they need to wired in parallel. Also that due to the high voltage ~8 volts a cell they can put a diode on each cell. No product until Aug 2016. Claims their crystalline silicon cell Sunpower like and is .40 microns thick (while regular cell is ~.150 or .180??) on resin like material which is why it is flexible. He claims 20% module level and 21% at cell for it to be 310 watts for standard sized module. -- #GetEnergized w/Renewable Energy #GoSolar, PEACE> Aur J Beck, NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ 032611-24 NABCEP Certified PV Technical Sales™ PVTS032412-6 chief tech of Energy Network (Green Geek Squad*™ *) Advanced Energy Solutions Group, Inc (618) 893-1717 | (800) 229-0453 | www.AESsolar.com | tech at AESsolar.com We Empower YOU to Get Energized! Why choose us: Installing since 1999 NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ 032611-24 NABCEP Certified PV Technical Sales™ PVTS032412-6 We only do solar so we are not doing this part time Our chief tech has lived off grid for 18 years We have designed and worked on tiny off grid systems all the way up to 100kW system We have a strong focus on education so we try to set up systems to be showcased We design and install systems to last the full 25 year warranty of the modules Be an Energy Patriot Living on Earth is Expensive, but it does include a FREE trip around the Sun! Oil Addicts Anonymous International (a real 12 step program) www.IamanOilAddict.org This communication is the property of Advanced Energy Solutions Group, Inc and is intended only for use by the recipient identified. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify the sender and delete the original communication. Any use of this message without the Advanced Energy Solutions Group, Inc's consent is prohibited. ü Please consider the environment before printing this email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Apr 16 18:49:43 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2015 16:49:43 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Apprentice Message-ID: <55303C87.9080401@solarray.com> Hi Folks; I am considering hiring an apprentice, and I wanted to know if any else has tried this, and what advice and experience everyone had to offer. Also what would be the best way to advertise: Craig's List? / Wanted passionate techy soul to share warm fires and cold brews with, watch beautiful sunsets over off grid arrays in remote locations, sometimes carry leaky hazardous materials/..... mmmm. Obviously I need some help. Thanks in Advance, -- R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 19:05:51 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2015 13:05:51 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Apprentice In-Reply-To: <55303C87.9080401@solarray.com> References: <55303C87.9080401@solarray.com> Message-ID: Sounds more like a dating site. When i am looking i start with facts what we do and how it helps, driving record, schooling, training, brews and sunsets dont get included but thats just me. Not judging. Jerry Hi Folks; I am considering hiring an apprentice, and I wanted to know if any else has tried this, and what advice and experience everyone had to offer. Also what would be the best way to advertise: Craig's List? * Wanted passionate techy soul to share warm fires and cold brews with, watch beautiful sunsets over off grid arrays in remote locations, sometimes carry leaky hazardous materials*..... mmmm. Obviously I need some help. Thanks in Advance, -- R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com Thu Apr 16 19:34:39 2015 From: solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com (Solar Energy Solutions) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2015 23:34:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Apprentice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2084700183.5722406.1429227279153.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Here is our ad. We are looking to hire a highly motivated individualinterested and excited about a career in solar energy.  During your apprenticeship you will learn howto design, service and install solar hot water heating systems, solar poolheating systems, and photovoltaic systems. To consider this as a career, a person must be extremely physically fit andable to work under the most strenuous of environmental conditions. Solarinstallation work is both physically and mentally difficult work and not forthe faint of heart.  Able to run one mileand perform several hours of Bikram in a row would be good watermarks.  The work consists of conditions including andnot limited to high temperatures in summer and cold and wet in the winter,ladders extended 40 feet, very steep roofs with cliff like fall-offs, hot, hotattics, swimming through insulation in hot, hot attic and using a variety ofpower tools for work while swimming through insulation in hot, hot attics. A professional appearance is required and applicants should be personable,willing to take direction and able to maintain a positive and pleasant attitude.Pay is negotiable, but usually starts out at around $11.00/hour. Rapidincreases in wages are the goal. The top wage in the industry is about$22.00/hour. Along with a letter telling us why you feel you are suited, and skilled forthis particular job opening, send a resume and referrals.  Andrew KoyaanisqatsiPresidentSolar Energy Solutions, Inc.Since 1987,Moving Portland and Beyond to an Environmentally Sustainable Future.503-238-4502 www.SolarEnergyOregon.com "Better one's House too little one daythan too big all the Year after." On Thursday, April 16, 2015 4:05 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Sounds more like a dating site. When i am looking i start with facts what we do and how it helps, driving record, schooling, training, brews and sunsets dont get included but thats just me. Not judging. Jerry Hi Folks; I am considering hiring an apprentice, and I wanted to know if any else has tried this, and what advice and experience everyone had to offer. Also what would be the best way to advertise: Craig's List?  Wanted passionate techy soul to share warm fires and cold brews with, watch beautiful sunsets over off grid arrays in remote locations, sometimes carry leaky hazardous materials..... mmmm.  Obviously I need some help. Thanks in Advance, -- R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Apr 16 19:27:24 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2015 17:27:24 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Apprentice interview In-Reply-To: <55303C87.9080401@solarray.com> References: <55303C87.9080401@solarray.com> Message-ID: <007701d0789c$e5a65960$b0f30c20$@com> I interview & definitely check references including: look at a tape measure and tell me what those little marks are between 0 & 1”, & I look in their truck or car. If it’s clean they may take care of your vehicle then same and if it’s a mess that’s what you can expect them to do to your truck. Are they smokers? Is that OK in your truck? Can they work without checking their cell phone every time it goes Ding or rings? Do they have their own tools and do they know how to operate tools like your hydraulic draw punch or wire tugger without F%$ing it up or hurting themselves? Does anyone do a background check on new hires? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2015 4:50 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Apprentice Hi Folks; I am considering hiring an apprentice, and I wanted to know if any else has tried this, and what advice and experience everyone had to offer. Also what would be the best way to advertise: Craig's List? Wanted passionate techy soul to share warm fires and cold brews with, watch beautiful sunsets over off grid arrays in remote locations, sometimes carry leaky hazardous materials..... mmmm. Obviously I need some help. Thanks in Advance, -- R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 07:20:38 2015 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 07:20:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire protection for ground mount Message-ID: Hey Wrenchers, Does anyone have suggestions for netting/protecting wires behind a ground mount (for keeping hands out of there...not animals). I have seen quite a few home-made'ish looking options on systems around here (screwing hardware cloth onto the back of frames/racking, etc) but am looking for a more professional option....ideally something that is as clean looking as possible. For what its worth the panels will be (4) high in landscape. Thanks for any thoughts. Adam Adam Katzman - Owner/Operator Autonomous Energies 4872 State Route 9G Germantown NY, 12526 www.AutonomousEnergies.com (518) 567-1468 -- Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies 4872 State Route 9G Germantown NY, 12526 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at getpimby.com Fri Apr 17 09:08:08 2015 From: matt at getpimby.com (Matt Sherald) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 09:08:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire protection for ground mount In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Adam, I've used aluminum perforated sheet metal in the past. It matches the other aluminum on the ground mount and it can be zipped up with self drilling screws. Looks pretty sharp when it is done - kinda like it was meant to be there all along. -Matt On Fri, Apr 17, 2015 at 7:20 AM, AE Solar wrote: > Hey Wrenchers, > > Does anyone have suggestions for netting/protecting wires behind a ground > mount (for keeping hands out of there...not animals). I have seen quite a > few home-made'ish looking options on systems around here (screwing hardware > cloth onto the back of frames/racking, etc) but am looking for a more > professional option....ideally something that is as clean looking as > possible. For what its worth the panels will be (4) high in landscape. > Thanks for any thoughts. > > Adam > > Adam Katzman - Owner/Operator > Autonomous Energies > 4872 State Route 9G > Germantown NY, 12526 > www.AutonomousEnergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > > -- > Adam Katzman > Autonomous Energies > 4872 State Route 9G > Germantown NY, 12526 > www.autonomousenergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® 304-704-5943 www.getpimby.blogspot.com www.getpimby.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri Apr 17 09:35:04 2015 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 09:35:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire protection for ground mount In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20150417133536.1C2F110863@che.dreamhost.com> Just be sure to properly bond it to ground per 250.8 & 12, and 250.4. Sincerely, Glenn Burt Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. -----Original Message----- From: "Matt Sherald" Sent: ‎4/‎17/‎2015 9:08 To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Wire protection for ground mount Adam, I've used aluminum perforated sheet metal in the past. It matches the other aluminum on the ground mount and it can be zipped up with self drilling screws. Looks pretty sharp when it is done - kinda like it was meant to be there all along. -Matt On Fri, Apr 17, 2015 at 7:20 AM, AE Solar wrote: > Hey Wrenchers, > > Does anyone have suggestions for netting/protecting wires behind a ground > mount (for keeping hands out of there...not animals). I have seen quite a > few home-made'ish looking options on systems around here (screwing hardware > cloth onto the back of frames/racking, etc) but am looking for a more > professional option....ideally something that is as clean looking as > possible. For what its worth the panels will be (4) high in landscape. > Thanks for any thoughts. > > Adam > > Adam Katzman - Owner/Operator > Autonomous Energies > 4872 State Route 9G > Germantown NY, 12526 > www.AutonomousEnergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > > -- > Adam Katzman > Autonomous Energies > 4872 State Route 9G > Germantown NY, 12526 > www.autonomousenergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® 304-704-5943 www.getpimby.blogspot.com www.getpimby.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daveclick at fsec.ucf.edu Fri Apr 17 09:38:17 2015 From: daveclick at fsec.ucf.edu (Dave Click) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 09:38:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire protection for ground mount In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55310CC9.2030903@fsec.ucf.edu> I think someone here long ago recommended solarscrim.com; when I recommended it to three contractors I heard: 1) "awesome, I just bought some and I'll use this on every project!" 2) "too expensive, I'm getting some tennis court screening on my own and doing it myself." 3) "too expensive, I'm getting some landscape cloth(?) and doing it myself." IMHO it looks pretty nice and you would only need it over where the wiring is (unless you or your customer wanted to pay for the full back to be covered, of course), but I can't comment on its cost relative to alternatives. Issue with hardware cloth, perforated metal, etc. is that you'd need to find a way to reliably bond it, and sometimes a homemade solution may have some sharp edges/points. You may be able to use a cable tray instead (depending on your BOS approach, could run that E-W to your inverters/combiner boxes in combination with N-S rolls of scrim). Or of course, look to plethora of excellent wire management options provided by your racking manufacturer. Ha ha ha. Dave On 2015/4/17 7:20, AE Solar wrote: > Hey Wrenchers, > > Does anyone have suggestions for netting/protecting wires behind a > ground mount (for keeping hands out of there...not animals). I have > seen quite a few home-made'ish looking options on systems around here > (screwing hardware cloth onto the back of frames/racking, etc) but am > looking for a more professional option....ideally something that is > as clean looking as possible. For what its worth the panels will be > (4) high in landscape. Thanks for any thoughts. > > Adam > > Adam Katzman - Owner/Operator > Autonomous Energies > 4872 State Route 9G > Germantown NY, 12526 > www.AutonomousEnergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > > -- > Adam Katzman > Autonomous Energies > 4872 State Route 9G > Germantown NY, 12526 > www.autonomousenergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Fri Apr 17 09:50:40 2015 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 06:50:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire protection for ground mount In-Reply-To: <55310CC9.2030903@fsec.ucf.edu> References: <55310CC9.2030903@fsec.ucf.edu> Message-ID: We had a relatively good experience with solarscrim. The pricing was really quite reasonable and it is nice having the heavy duty grommets to fasten it in place. We used Heyco SunBundler vinyl jacketed stainless cable ties to hold it in place. See attached. -August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Dave Click *Sent:* Friday, April 17, 2015 6:38 AM *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Wire protection for ground mount I think someone here long ago recommended solarscrim.com; when I recommended it to three contractors I heard: 1) "awesome, I just bought some and I'll use this on every project!" 2) "too expensive, I'm getting some tennis court screening on my own and doing it myself." 3) "too expensive, I'm getting some landscape cloth(?) and doing it myself." IMHO it looks pretty nice and you would only need it over where the wiring is (unless you or your customer wanted to pay for the full back to be covered, of course), but I can't comment on its cost relative to alternatives. Issue with hardware cloth, perforated metal, etc. is that you'd need to find a way to reliably bond it, and sometimes a homemade solution may have some sharp edges/points. You may be able to use a cable tray instead (depending on your BOS approach, could run that E-W to your inverters/combiner boxes in combination with N-S rolls of scrim). Or of course, look to plethora of excellent wire management options provided by your racking manufacturer. Ha ha ha. Dave On 2015/4/17 7:20, AE Solar wrote: Hey Wrenchers, Does anyone have suggestions for netting/protecting wires behind a ground mount (for keeping hands out of there...not animals). I have seen quite a few home-made'ish looking options on systems around here (screwing hardware cloth onto the back of frames/racking, etc) but am looking for a more professional option....ideally something that is as clean looking as possible. For what its worth the panels will be (4) high in landscape. Thanks for any thoughts. Adam Adam Katzman - Owner/Operator Autonomous Energies 4872 State Route 9G Germantown NY, 12526 www.AutonomousEnergies.com (518) 567-1468 -- Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies 4872 State Route 9G Germantown NY, 12526 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Luminalt Solar Scrim (Medium).jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 432421 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Apr 17 09:33:25 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 09:33:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Apprentice In-Reply-To: <2084700183.5722406.1429227279153.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2084700183.5722406.1429227279153.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I like this a lot, and have used similar language. The attic stuff can't be overstated. The professional appearance thing brings up another question... how do you reconcile wanting your installers to look professional with swimming through insulation? One is seemingly impossible with the other. It's easy to sho up looking professional. Leaving the job site looking anything but ragged is the challenge. Jason Szumlanski On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 7:34 PM, Solar Energy Solutions < solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com> wrote: > Here is our ad. > > We are looking to hire a highly motivated individual interested and > excited about a career in solar energy. During your apprenticeship you > will learn how to design, service and install solar hot water heating > systems, solar pool heating systems, and photovoltaic systems. > > To consider this as a career, a person must be extremely physically fit > and able to work under the most strenuous of environmental conditions. > Solar installation work is both physically and mentally difficult work and > not for the faint of heart. Able to run one mile and perform several > hours of Bikram in a row would be good watermarks. The work consists of > conditions including and not limited to high temperatures in summer and > cold and wet in the winter, ladders extended 40 feet, very steep roofs with > cliff like fall-offs, hot, hot attics, swimming through insulation in hot, > hot attic and using a variety of power tools for work while swimming > through insulation in hot, hot attics. > > A professional appearance is required and applicants should be personable, > willing to take direction and able to maintain a positive and pleasant > attitude. Pay is negotiable, but usually starts out at around $11.00/hour. > Rapid increases in wages are the goal. The top wage in the industry is > about $22.00/hour. > > Along with a letter telling us why you feel you are suited, and skilled > for this particular job opening, send a resume and referrals. > > *Andrew Koyaanisqatsi* > *President* > *Solar Energy Solutions, Inc.* > *Since 1987,* > *Moving Portland and Beyond * > *to an Environmentally Sustainable Future.* > > *503-238-4502 <503-238-4502>www.SolarEnergyOregon.com > * > > > > On Thursday, April 16, 2015 4:05 PM, Jerry Shafer < > jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Sounds more like a dating site. When i am looking i start with facts what > we do and how it helps, driving record, schooling, training, brews and > sunsets dont get included but thats just me. Not judging. > Jerry > Hi Folks; > > I am considering hiring an apprentice, and I wanted to know if any else > has tried this, and what advice and experience everyone had to offer. > Also what would be the best way to advertise: Craig's List? > > * Wanted passionate techy soul to share warm fires and cold brews with, > watch beautiful sunsets over off grid arrays in remote locations, sometimes > carry leaky hazardous materials*..... > mmmm. Obviously I need some help. > > Thanks in Advance, > > -- > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 08:22:38 2015 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 08:22:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Apprentice interview In-Reply-To: <007701d0789c$e5a65960$b0f30c20$@com> References: <55303C87.9080401@solarray.com> <007701d0789c$e5a65960$b0f30c20$@com> Message-ID: I'm not sure how the term is used in America, but generally "apprentice" does not mean cheap labour. An apprentice program should be an education path to a qualification with state recognized standards, such as Electrician or Plumber. if you just want inexpensive labour, that's not an apprentice, that's a helper, labourer, intern. As someone who started life as an electrical apprentice, I object to seeing apprenticeships shortchanging the applicants. On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 7:27 PM, Dana wrote: > I interview & definitely check references including: look at a tape > measure and tell me what those little marks are between 0 & 1”, & I look in > their truck or car. > > If it’s clean they may take care of your vehicle then same and if it’s a > mess that’s what you can expect them to do to your truck. > > Are they smokers? Is that OK in your truck? > > Can they work without checking their cell phone every time it goes Ding or > rings? > > Do they have their own tools and do they know how to operate tools like > your hydraulic draw punch or wire tugger without F%$ing it up or hurting > themselves? > > > > Does anyone do a background check on new hires? > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel > > Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 > > E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com > > O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 > > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Ray Walters > *Sent:* Thursday, April 16, 2015 4:50 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Apprentice > > > > Hi Folks; > > I am considering hiring an apprentice, and I wanted to know if any else > has tried this, and what advice and experience everyone had to offer. > Also what would be the best way to advertise: Craig's List? > > *Wanted passionate techy soul to share warm fires and cold brews with, > watch beautiful sunsets over off grid arrays in remote locations, sometimes > carry leaky hazardous materials*..... > mmmm. Obviously I need some help. > > Thanks in Advance, > > -- > > R.Ray Walters > > CTO, Solarray, Inc > > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > > Licensed Master Electrician > > Solar Design Engineer > > 303 505-8760 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Apr 17 09:38:15 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 09:38:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire protection for ground mount In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What are you screwing the aluminum into? Any chance of getting a picture? On Fri, Apr 17, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Matt Sherald wrote: > Adam, > > I've used aluminum perforated sheet metal in the past. It matches the > other aluminum on the ground mount and it can be zipped up with self > drilling screws. Looks pretty sharp when it is done - kinda like it was > meant to be there all along. > > -Matt > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2015 at 7:20 AM, AE Solar > wrote: > >> Hey Wrenchers, >> >> Does anyone have suggestions for netting/protecting wires behind a ground >> mount (for keeping hands out of there...not animals). I have seen quite a >> few home-made'ish looking options on systems around here (screwing hardware >> cloth onto the back of frames/racking, etc) but am looking for a more >> professional option....ideally something that is as clean looking as >> possible. For what its worth the panels will be (4) high in landscape. >> Thanks for any thoughts. >> >> Adam >> >> Adam Katzman - Owner/Operator >> Autonomous Energies >> 4872 State Route 9G >> Germantown NY, 12526 >> www.AutonomousEnergies.com >> (518) 567-1468 >> > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri Apr 17 11:52:59 2015 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 11:52:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Apprentice interview In-Reply-To: References: <55303C87.9080401@solarray.com> <007701d0789c$e5a65960$b0f30c20$@com> Message-ID: <004501d07926$9600fe30$c202fa90$@burt@glbcc.com> Unions adopting the term notwithstanding, Merriam-Webster defines it as such: Full Definition of APPRENTICE 1 a : one bound by indenture to serve another for a prescribed period with a view to learning an art or trade b : one who is learning by practical experience under skilled workers a trade, art, or calling 2 : an inexperienced person : novice — ap·pren·tice·ship \-tə(sh)-ˌship, -təs-ˌship\ noun Clearly it would apply to someone who fits the descriptions being discussed. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Mason Sent: Friday, April 17, 2015 8:23 AM To: dana at solarwork.com; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Apprentice interview I'm not sure how the term is used in America, but generally "apprentice" does not mean cheap labour. An apprentice program should be an education path to a qualification with state recognized standards, such as Electrician or Plumber. if you just want inexpensive labour, that's not an apprentice, that's a helper, labourer, intern. As someone who started life as an electrical apprentice, I object to seeing apprenticeships shortchanging the applicants. On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 7:27 PM, Dana wrote: I interview & definitely check references including: look at a tape measure and tell me what those little marks are between 0 & 1”, & I look in their truck or car. If it’s clean they may take care of your vehicle then same and if it’s a mess that’s what you can expect them to do to your truck. Are they smokers? Is that OK in your truck? Can they work without checking their cell phone every time it goes Ding or rings? Do they have their own tools and do they know how to operate tools like your hydraulic draw punch or wire tugger without F%$ing it up or hurting themselves? Does anyone do a background check on new hires? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2015 4:50 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Apprentice Hi Folks; I am considering hiring an apprentice, and I wanted to know if any else has tried this, and what advice and experience everyone had to offer. Also what would be the best way to advertise: Craig's List? Wanted passionate techy soul to share warm fires and cold brews with, watch beautiful sunsets over off grid arrays in remote locations, sometimes carry leaky hazardous materials..... mmmm. Obviously I need some help. Thanks in Advance, -- R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri Apr 17 11:52:59 2015 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 11:52:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Apprentice In-Reply-To: References: <2084700183.5722406.1429227279153.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004a01d07926$97010910$c5031b30$@burt@glbcc.com> Tyvek coverall comes to mind. It is what the insulation pros wear. Another option would be a simple Dickies coverall – can be worn with minimal underclothing and changed into and out of at jobsite (in a discrete location).. -Glenn From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Friday, April 17, 2015 9:33 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Apprentice I like this a lot, and have used similar language. The attic stuff can't be overstated. The professional appearance thing brings up another question... how do you reconcile wanting your installers to look professional with swimming through insulation? One is seemingly impossible with the other. It's easy to sho up looking professional. Leaving the job site looking anything but ragged is the challenge. Jason Szumlanski On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 7:34 PM, Solar Energy Solutions wrote: Here is our ad. We are looking to hire a highly motivated individual interested and excited about a career in solar energy. During your apprenticeship you will learn how to design, service and install solar hot water heating systems, solar pool heating systems, and photovoltaic systems. To consider this as a career, a person must be extremely physically fit and able to work under the most strenuous of environmental conditions. Solar installation work is both physically and mentally difficult work and not for the faint of heart. Able to run one mile and perform several hours of Bikram in a row would be good watermarks. The work consists of conditions including and not limited to high temperatures in summer and cold and wet in the winter, ladders extended 40 feet, very steep roofs with cliff like fall-offs, hot, hot attics, swimming through insulation in hot, hot attic and using a variety of power tools for work while swimming through insulation in hot, hot attics. A professional appearance is required and applicants should be personable, willing to take direction and able to maintain a positive and pleasant attitude. Pay is negotiable, but usually starts out at around $11.00/hour. Rapid increases in wages are the goal. The top wage in the industry is about $22.00/hour. Along with a letter telling us why you feel you are suited, and skilled for this particular job opening, send a resume and referrals. Andrew Koyaanisqatsi President Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. Since 1987, Moving Portland and Beyond to an Environmentally Sustainable Future. 503-238-4502 www.SolarEnergyOregon.com On Thursday, April 16, 2015 4:05 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Sounds more like a dating site. When i am looking i start with facts what we do and how it helps, driving record, schooling, training, brews and sunsets dont get included but thats just me. Not judging. Jerry Hi Folks; I am considering hiring an apprentice, and I wanted to know if any else has tried this, and what advice and experience everyone had to offer. Also what would be the best way to advertise: Craig's List? Wanted passionate techy soul to share warm fires and cold brews with, watch beautiful sunsets over off grid arrays in remote locations, sometimes carry leaky hazardous materials..... mmmm. Obviously I need some help. Thanks in Advance, -- R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirk at vtsolar.com Fri Apr 17 13:21:14 2015 From: kirk at vtsolar.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 13:21:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] flushing DHW collectors Message-ID: <010d01d07932$e8a445f0$b9ecd1d0$@vtsolar.com> Hello, I have an older 10 collector system in which the glycol has stagnated due to a defective collector sensor, apparently for some time. I was able to drain the collectors, the cooked glycol is black with a good bit of sediment. I tried to flush the system with water but my ½ hp utility pump could not pump the water entirely through the collectors. Suction slowed down and stopped after just a few gallons, as if the pump couldn’t overcome the effective head of the system. I had no problem using this pump to charge the loop when it was commissioned. I suspect the collectors may be gummed up with cooked glycol. I guess compressed air is next to try. Are there any safe chemicals to use to purge / un-gum the collectors? Thanks. Kirk Herander VT Solar, LLC Proven PV provider since 1991 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Apr 17 13:11:52 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 13:11:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Apprentice In-Reply-To: <55312c9b.64f4440a.5bb2.ffff9730SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <2084700183.5722406.1429227279153.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <55312c9b.64f4440a.5bb2.ffff9730SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Given the attic temperatures around here and the propensity of Tyvek to get snagged on roof nails, I don't think these are great options for us. It's hard enough wearing long pants and sleeves in Florida, which is the minimum I require for attic work. I've seen insulation guys in short sleeved shirts around here. I don't know how they get away with it (or endure the itching). Then again, a lot of new homes are going in with foam or blown-in insulation. On Fri, Apr 17, 2015 at 11:52 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: > Tyvek coverall comes to mind. It is what the insulation pros wear. > > Another option would be a simple Dickies coverall – can be worn with > minimal underclothing and changed into and out of at jobsite (in a discrete > location).. > > > > -Glenn > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski > *Sent:* Friday, April 17, 2015 9:33 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Apprentice > > > > I like this a lot, and have used similar language. The attic stuff can't > be overstated. The professional appearance thing brings up another > question... how do you reconcile wanting your installers to look > professional with swimming through insulation? One is seemingly impossible > with the other. It's easy to sho up looking professional. Leaving the job > site looking anything but ragged is the challenge. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 7:34 PM, Solar Energy Solutions < > solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com> wrote: > > Here is our ad. > > > > We are looking to hire a highly motivated individual interested and > excited about a career in solar energy. During your apprenticeship you > will learn how to design, service and install solar hot water heating > systems, solar pool heating systems, and photovoltaic systems. > > > To consider this as a career, a person must be extremely physically fit > and able to work under the most strenuous of environmental conditions. > Solar installation work is both physically and mentally difficult work and > not for the faint of heart. Able to run one mile and perform several hours > of Bikram in a row would be good watermarks. The work consists of > conditions including and not limited to high temperatures in summer and > cold and wet in the winter, ladders extended 40 feet, very steep roofs with > cliff like fall-offs, hot, hot attics, swimming through insulation in hot, > hot attic and using a variety of power tools for work while swimming > through insulation in hot, hot attics. > > > A professional appearance is required and applicants should be personable, > willing to take direction and able to maintain a positive and pleasant > attitude. Pay is negotiable, but usually starts out at around $11.00/hour. > Rapid increases in wages are the goal. The top wage in the industry is > about $22.00/hour. > > > Along with a letter telling us why you feel you are suited, and skilled > for this particular job opening, send a resume and referrals. > > > > *Andrew Koyaanisqatsi* > > *President* > > *Solar Energy Solutions, Inc.* > > *Since 1987,* > > *Moving Portland and Beyond * > > *to an Environmentally Sustainable Future.* > > > *503-238-4502 <503-238-4502>www.SolarEnergyOregon.com > * > > > > > > On Thursday, April 16, 2015 4:05 PM, Jerry Shafer < > jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Sounds more like a dating site. When i am looking i start with facts what > we do and how it helps, driving record, schooling, training, brews and > sunsets dont get included but thats just me. Not judging. > Jerry > > Hi Folks; > > I am considering hiring an apprentice, and I wanted to know if any else > has tried this, and what advice and experience everyone had to offer. > Also what would be the best way to advertise: Craig's List? > > *Wanted passionate techy soul to share warm fires and cold brews with, > watch beautiful sunsets over off grid arrays in remote locations, sometimes > carry leaky hazardous materials*..... > mmmm. Obviously I need some help. > > Thanks in Advance, > > -- > > R.Ray Walters > > CTO, Solarray, Inc > > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > > Licensed Master Electrician > > Solar Design Engineer > > 303 505-8760 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri Apr 17 14:05:16 2015 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 14:05:16 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] flushing DHW collectors In-Reply-To: <010d01d07932$e8a445f0$b9ecd1d0$@vtsolar.com> References: <010d01d07932$e8a445f0$b9ecd1d0$@vtsolar.com> Message-ID: <007801d07939$0ffe5f90$2ffb1eb0$@burt@glbcc.com> When I was installing them and using Tom Lane’s book, he recommended a solution of TSP be used for cleaning lines prior to charging with HTF. 1 cup per gallon of water is what I read. He suggests running it for 30 min, then flushing with clean water for another 30 before charging with HTF. -Glenn From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirk Herander Sent: Friday, April 17, 2015 1:21 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] flushing DHW collectors Hello, I have an older 10 collector system in which the glycol has stagnated due to a defective collector sensor, apparently for some time. I was able to drain the collectors, the cooked glycol is black with a good bit of sediment. I tried to flush the system with water but my ½ hp utility pump could not pump the water entirely through the collectors. Suction slowed down and stopped after just a few gallons, as if the pump couldn’t overcome the effective head of the system. I had no problem using this pump to charge the loop when it was commissioned. I suspect the collectors may be gummed up with cooked glycol. I guess compressed air is next to try. Are there any safe chemicals to use to purge / un-gum the collectors? Thanks. Kirk Herander VT Solar, LLC Proven PV provider since 1991 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Fri Apr 17 15:59:34 2015 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 15:59:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] flushing DHW collectors In-Reply-To: <007801d07939$0ffe5f90$2ffb1eb0$@burt@glbcc.com> References: <010d01d07932$e8a445f0$b9ecd1d0$@vtsolar.com> <007801d07939$0ffe5f90$2ffb1eb0$@burt@glbcc.com> Message-ID: <55316626.2070502@entech-engineering.com> We have had luck using a 25% solution of white vinegar, pumping the solution into the system until the pump cannot overcome the friction, capping the inlet(where the pump was pumping), make sure the outlet is open, let the sun superheat the solution and blow the obstruction out through the outlet. (Just have to make sure that no one, nothing is in the way of the outlet) Chris On 4/17/2015 2:05 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: > > When I was installing them and using Tom Lane’s book, he recommended a > solution of TSP be used for cleaning lines prior to charging with HTF. > 1 cup per gallon of water is what I read. He suggests running it for > 30 min, then flushing with clean water for another 30 before charging > with HTF. > > -Glenn > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On Behalf Of *Kirk Herander > *Sent:* Friday, April 17, 2015 1:21 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] flushing DHW collectors > > Hello, > > I have an older 10 collector system in which the glycol has stagnated > due to a defective collector sensor, apparently for some time. I was > able to drain the collectors, the cooked glycol is black with a good > bit of sediment. I tried to flush the system with water but my ½ hp > utility pump could not pump the water entirely through the collectors. > Suction slowed down and stopped after just a few gallons, as if the > pump couldn’t overcome the effective head of the system. I had no > problem using this pump to charge the loop when it was commissioned. I > suspect the collectors may be gummed up with cooked glycol. I guess > compressed air is next to try. Are there any safe chemicals to use to > purge / un-gum the collectors? Thanks. > > *Kirk Herander* > > *VT Solar, LLC * > > */Proven PV provider since 1991/* > > *www.vermontsolarnow.com* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEP^TM Inaugural Certificant > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > 802.863.1202 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel, President ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 100 bytes Desc: not available URL: From august at luminalt.com Fri Apr 17 16:17:32 2015 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 13:17:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] flushing DHW collectors In-Reply-To: <010d01d07932$e8a445f0$b9ecd1d0$@vtsolar.com> References: <010d01d07932$e8a445f0$b9ecd1d0$@vtsolar.com> Message-ID: <9fd6dc36772e162890ad1fe379496f18@mail.gmail.com> Kirk, Any idea what kind of glycol was in the system? I’ve seen systems stagnate for several years where the propylene glycol was still fine if it was good quality. I’ve seen people use the automotive grade propylene glycol such as Sierra brand antifreeze with poor results. I think Glenn’s suggestion of flushing with a TSP solution is a good way to go. Good luck, sounds like a messy situation! Best, August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Kirk Herander *Sent:* Friday, April 17, 2015 10:21 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] flushing DHW collectors Hello, I have an older 10 collector system in which the glycol has stagnated due to a defective collector sensor, apparently for some time. I was able to drain the collectors, the cooked glycol is black with a good bit of sediment. I tried to flush the system with water but my ½ hp utility pump could not pump the water entirely through the collectors. Suction slowed down and stopped after just a few gallons, as if the pump couldn’t overcome the effective head of the system. I had no problem using this pump to charge the loop when it was commissioned. I suspect the collectors may be gummed up with cooked glycol. I guess compressed air is next to try. Are there any safe chemicals to use to purge / un-gum the collectors? Thanks. *Kirk Herander* *VT Solar, LLC * *Proven PV provider since 1991* *www.vermontsolarnow.com * dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Apr 17 16:52:53 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 14:52:53 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Apprentice interview In-Reply-To: References: <55303C87.9080401@solarray.com> <007701d0789c$e5a65960$b0f30c20$@com> Message-ID: <553172A5.2080308@solarray.com> Hi All; Thanks for the replies so far; I apologize for my misunderstood attempt=20 at humor in my initial post. I agree with Chris here, I hire contract=20 labor all the time, but an apprenticeship is different. Laborers top=20 out pretty quickly and just aren't capable of learning the nuances of=20 off grid electric design. Much of the time that's all that's needed:=20 pick this up and take it over there,dig here, etc. I'm not looking for=20 labor, as much as someone who could some day take over the business (=20 I'm 50 now) and go out and troubleshoot systems on their own. I=20 consider off grid solar to be more of a craft than mere construction=20 contracting. An apprenticeship implies a much longer term arrangement where they may=20 be paid less, but can expect training to the point of getting their=20 electrical license and making a career out of it. I'm having a much=20 harder time finding the sort of person that wants to make that sort of=20 commitment both in time and in learning. Folks that have the smarts and=20 ambition necessary are already busy. Thanks, R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 4/17/2015 6:22 AM, Chris Mason wrote: > I'm not sure how the term is used in America, but generally=20 > "apprentice" does not mean cheap labour. An apprentice program should=20 > be an education path to a qualification with state recognized=20 > standards, such as Electrician or Plumber. if you just want=20 > inexpensive labour, that's not an apprentice, that's a helper,=20 > labourer, intern. As someone who started life as an electrical=20 > apprentice, I object to seeing apprenticeships shortchanging the=20 > applicants. > > On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 7:27 PM, Dana > wrote: > > I interview & definitely check references including: look at a > tape measure and tell me what those little marks are between 0 & > 1=E2=80=9D, & I look in their truck or car. > > If it=E2=80=99s clean they may take care of your vehicle then same an= d if > it=E2=80=99s a mess that=E2=80=99s what you can expect them to do to = your truck. > > Are they smokers? Is that OK in your truck? > > Can they work without checking their cell phone every time it goes > Ding or rings? > > Do they have their own tools and do they know how to operate tools > like your hydraulic draw punch or wire tugger without F%$ing it up > or hurting themselves? > > Does anyone do a background check on new hires? > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- > > Dana Orzel > > Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 > > E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - > solarwork.com > > O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 > > > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > *From:*RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of > *Ray Walters > *Sent:* Thursday, April 16, 2015 4:50 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Apprentice > > Hi Folks; > > I am considering hiring an apprentice, and I wanted to know if any > else has tried this, and what advice and experience everyone had > to offer. > Also what would be the best way to advertise: Craig's List? / > > Wanted passionate techy soul to share warm fires and cold brews > with, watch beautiful sunsets over off grid arrays in remote > locations, sometimes carry leaky hazardous materials/..... > mmmm. Obviously I need some help. > > Thanks in Advance, > > --=20 > > R.Ray Walters > > CTO, Solarray, Inc > > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > > Licensed Master Electrician > > Solar Design Engineer > > 303 505-8760 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillis= t.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > --=20 > Chris Mason > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer=E2=84=A2 > Solar Design Engineer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > www.cometsolar.com > 264.235.5670 > 869.662.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 16:55:39 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 10:55:39 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] flushing DHW collectors In-Reply-To: <010d01d07932$e8a445f0$b9ecd1d0$@vtsolar.com> References: <010d01d07932$e8a445f0$b9ecd1d0$@vtsolar.com> Message-ID: We will use a vinigar water solution but you will need more volume fill it and run it for some time then flush, repeat as nessesary. Cooked glycol is messy to clean. Jerry On Apr 17, 2015 7:21 AM, "Kirk Herander" wrote: > Hello, > > > > I have an older 10 collector system in which the glycol has stagnated due > to a defective collector sensor, apparently for some time. I was able to > drain the collectors, the cooked glycol is black with a good bit of > sediment. I tried to flush the system with water but my ½ hp utility pump > could not pump the water entirely through the collectors. Suction slowed > down and stopped after just a few gallons, as if the pump couldn’t overcome > the effective head of the system. I had no problem using this pump to > charge the loop when it was commissioned. I suspect the collectors may be > gummed up with cooked glycol. I guess compressed air is next to try. Are > there any safe chemicals to use to purge / un-gum the collectors? Thanks. > > > > *Kirk Herander* > > *VT Solar, LLC * > > *Proven PV provider since 1991* > > *www.vermontsolarnow.com * > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > 802.863.1202 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Fri Apr 17 16:35:06 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 14:35:06 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] flushing DHW collectors In-Reply-To: <55316626.2070502@entech-engineering.com> References: <010d01d07932$e8a445f0$b9ecd1d0$@vtsolar.com> <007801d07939$0ffe5f90$2ffb1eb0$@burt@glbcc.com> <55316626.2070502@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <009701d0794d$fdd37200$f97a5600$@com> Lowe’s has a portable irrigation pump that I will buy when mine glycol pumps die. My brother-in-law who does a lot of glycol pumping for snowmelt in ID came up with this. UTILITECH – 1 HP – Portable lawn pump, Part # 0024840 – 120 volt it pumps 100% glycol like no tomorrow. Easy to carry frame and made for standard hose connections. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Christopher Warfel Sent: Friday, April 17, 2015 2:00 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] flushing DHW collectors We have had luck using a 25% solution of white vinegar, pumping the solution into the system until the pump cannot overcome the friction, capping the inlet(where the pump was pumping), make sure the outlet is open, let the sun superheat the solution and blow the obstruction out through the outlet. (Just have to make sure that no one, nothing is in the way of the outlet) Chris On 4/17/2015 2:05 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: When I was installing them and using Tom Lane’s book, he recommended a solution of TSP be used for cleaning lines prior to charging with HTF. 1 cup per gallon of water is what I read. He suggests running it for 30 min, then flushing with clean water for another 30 before charging with HTF. -Glenn From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirk Herander Sent: Friday, April 17, 2015 1:21 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] flushing DHW collectors Hello, I have an older 10 collector system in which the glycol has stagnated due to a defective collector sensor, apparently for some time. I was able to drain the collectors, the cooked glycol is black with a good bit of sediment. I tried to flush the system with water but my ½ hp utility pump could not pump the water entirely through the collectors. Suction slowed down and stopped after just a few gallons, as if the pump couldn’t overcome the effective head of the system. I had no problem using this pump to charge the loop when it was commissioned. I suspect the collectors may be gummed up with cooked glycol. I guess compressed air is next to try. Are there any safe chemicals to use to purge / un-gum the collectors? Thanks. Kirk Herander VT Solar, LLC Proven PV provider since 1991 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Christopher Warfel, President ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Fri Apr 17 17:34:15 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 15:34:15 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Apprentice interview In-Reply-To: <553172A5.2080308@solarray.com> References: <55303C87.9080401@solarray.com> <007701d0789c$e5a65960$b0f30c20$@com> <553172A5.2080308@solarray.com> Message-ID: <00b301d07956$413c17b0$c3b44710$@com> Finding someone who is or has lived off grid helps a lot. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Friday, April 17, 2015 2:53 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Apprentice interview Hi All; Thanks for the replies so far; I apologize for my misunderstood attempt at humor in my initial post. I agree with Chris here, I hire contract labor all the time, but an apprenticeship is different. Laborers top out pretty quickly and just aren't capable of learning the nuances of off grid electric design. Much of the time that's all that's needed: pick this up and take it over there,dig here, etc. I'm not looking for labor, as much as someone who could some day take over the business ( I'm 50 now) and go out and troubleshoot systems on their own. I consider off grid solar to be more of a craft than mere construction contracting. An apprenticeship implies a much longer term arrangement where they may be paid less, but can expect training to the point of getting their electrical license and making a career out of it. I'm having a much harder time finding the sort of person that wants to make that sort of commitment both in time and in learning. Folks that have the smarts and ambition necessary are already busy. Thanks, R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 4/17/2015 6:22 AM, Chris Mason wrote: I'm not sure how the term is used in America, but generally "apprentice" does not mean cheap labour. An apprentice program should be an education path to a qualification with state recognized standards, such as Electrician or Plumber. if you just want inexpensive labour, that's not an apprentice, that's a helper, labourer, intern. As someone who started life as an electrical apprentice, I object to seeing apprenticeships shortchanging the applicants. On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 7:27 PM, Dana wrote: I interview & definitely check references including: look at a tape measure and tell me what those little marks are between 0 & 1", & I look in their truck or car. If it's clean they may take care of your vehicle then same and if it's a mess that's what you can expect them to do to your truck. Are they smokers? Is that OK in your truck? Can they work without checking their cell phone every time it goes Ding or rings? Do they have their own tools and do they know how to operate tools like your hydraulic draw punch or wire tugger without F%$ing it up or hurting themselves? Does anyone do a background check on new hires? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2015 4:50 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Apprentice Hi Folks; I am considering hiring an apprentice, and I wanted to know if any else has tried this, and what advice and experience everyone had to offer. Also what would be the best way to advertise: Craig's List? Wanted passionate techy soul to share warm fires and cold brews with, watch beautiful sunsets over off grid arrays in remote locations, sometimes carry leaky hazardous materials..... mmmm. Obviously I need some help. Thanks in Advance, -- R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV InstallerT Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Apr 17 22:04:55 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 20:04:55 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Apprentice interview In-Reply-To: <00b301d07956$413c17b0$c3b44710$@com> References: <55303C87.9080401@solarray.com> <007701d0789c$e5a65960$b0f30c20$@com> <553172A5.2080308@solarray.com> <00b301d07956$413c17b0$c3b44710$@com> Message-ID: <5531BBC7.2010904@solarray.com> I agree, but the offgrid lifestyle often makes travel issues and work=20 ethics more difficult. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 4/17/2015 3:34 PM, Dana wrote: > > Finding someone who is or has lived off grid helps a lot. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- > > Dana Orzel > > Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 > > E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com > > O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 > > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]=20 > *On Behalf Of *Ray Walters > *Sent:* Friday, April 17, 2015 2:53 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Apprentice interview > > Hi All; > > Thanks for the replies so far; I apologize for my misunderstood=20 > attempt at humor in my initial post. I agree with Chris here, I hire=20 > contract labor all the time, but an apprenticeship is different. =20 > Laborers top out pretty quickly and just aren't capable of learning=20 > the nuances of off grid electric design. Much of the time that's all=20 > that's needed: pick this up and take it over there,dig here, etc. I'm=20 > not looking for labor, as much as someone who could some day take over=20 > the business ( I'm 50 now) and go out and troubleshoot systems on=20 > their own. I consider off grid solar to be more of a craft than mere=20 > construction contracting. > An apprenticeship implies a much longer term arrangement where they=20 > may be paid less, but can expect training to the point of getting=20 > their electrical license and making a career out of it. I'm having a=20 > much harder time finding the sort of person that wants to make that=20 > sort of commitment both in time and in learning. Folks that have the=20 > smarts and ambition necessary are already busy. > > Thanks, > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > On 4/17/2015 6:22 AM, Chris Mason wrote: > > I'm not sure how the term is used in America, but generally > "apprentice" does not mean cheap labour. An apprentice program > should be an education path to a qualification with state > recognized standards, such as Electrician or Plumber. if you just > want inexpensive labour, that's not an apprentice, that's a > helper, labourer, intern. As someone who started life as an > electrical apprentice, I object to seeing apprenticeships > shortchanging the applicants. > > On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 7:27 PM, Dana > wrote: > > I interview & definitely check references including: look at a > tape measure and tell me what those little marks are between 0 & > 1=E2=80=9D, & I look in their truck or car. > > If it=E2=80=99s clean they may take care of your vehicle then same an= d if > it=E2=80=99s a mess that=E2=80=99s what you can expect them to do to = your truck. > > Are they smokers? Is that OK in your truck? > > Can they work without checking their cell phone every time it goes > Ding or rings? > > Do they have their own tools and do they know how to operate tools > like your hydraulic draw punch or wire tugger without F%$ing it up > or hurting themselves? > > Does anyone do a background check on new hires? > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- > > Dana Orzel > > Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 > > E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - > solarwork.com > > O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 > > > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > *From:*RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of > *Ray Walters > *Sent:* Thursday, April 16, 2015 4:50 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Apprentice > > Hi Folks; > > I am considering hiring an apprentice, and I wanted to know if any > else has tried this, and what advice and experience everyone had > to offer. > Also what would be the best way to advertise: Craig's List? / > > Wanted passionate techy soul to share warm fires and cold brews > with, watch beautiful sunsets over off grid arrays in remote > locations, sometimes carry leaky hazardous materials/..... > mmmm. Obviously I need some help. > > Thanks in Advance, > > --=20 > > R.Ray Walters > > CTO, Solarray, Inc > > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > > Licensed Master Electrician > > Solar Design Engineer > > 303 505-8760 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillis= t.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > --=20 > > Chris Mason > > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer=E2=84=A2 > > Solar Design Engineer > > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > www.cometsolar.com > > 264.235.5670 > > 869.662.5670 > > Skype: netconcepts > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > =20 > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > =20 > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > =20 > > List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenche= s.org/maillist.html > > =20 > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > =20 > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > =20 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 20:41:59 2015 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 20:41:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Apprentice interview In-Reply-To: <553172A5.2080308@solarray.com> References: <55303C87.9080401@solarray.com> <007701d0789c$e5a65960$b0f30c20$@com> <553172A5.2080308@solarray.com> Message-ID: The US currently puts little value on craft versus academia, now everyone smart is expected to go to college. Consequently there is a stigma on vocational education. When I did my electrical apprenticeship in Ireland, we did two years of college, one year of training school and one year in the field. There were 8, 000 applicants for a handful of positions. I had a third year electrical apprentice from the US work for me on a three month project we took on. He was absolutely unqualified and could not answer the most basic questions on electrical theory. I recommend you detail the educational opportunities and fund adequate training enabling the apprentice to acheive the target qualification. On Apr 17, 2015 4:53 PM, "Ray Walters" wrote: > Hi All; > > Thanks for the replies so far; I apologize for my misunderstood attempt at > humor in my initial post. I agree with Chris here, I hire contract labor > all the time, but an apprenticeship is different. Laborers top out pretty > quickly and just aren't capable of learning the nuances of off grid > electric design. Much of the time that's all that's needed: pick this up > and take it over there,dig here, etc. I'm not looking for labor, as much > as someone who could some day take over the business ( I'm 50 now) and go > out and troubleshoot systems on their own. I consider off grid solar to be > more of a craft than mere construction contracting. > An apprenticeship implies a much longer term arrangement where they may be > paid less, but can expect training to the point of getting their electrical > license and making a career out of it. I'm having a much harder time > finding the sort of person that wants to make that sort of commitment both > in time and in learning. Folks that have the smarts and ambition necessary > are already busy. > > Thanks, > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 > > On 4/17/2015 6:22 AM, Chris Mason wrote: > > I'm not sure how the term is used in America, but generally "apprentice" > does not mean cheap labour. An apprentice program should be an education > path to a qualification with state recognized standards, such as > Electrician or Plumber. if you just want inexpensive labour, that's not an > apprentice, that's a helper, labourer, intern. As someone who started life > as an electrical apprentice, I object to seeing apprenticeships > shortchanging the applicants. > > On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 7:27 PM, Dana wrote: > >> I interview & definitely check references including: look at a tape >> measure and tell me what those little marks are between 0 & 1”, & I look in >> their truck or car. >> >> If it’s clean they may take care of your vehicle then same and if it’s a >> mess that’s what you can expect them to do to your truck. >> >> Are they smokers? Is that OK in your truck? >> >> Can they work without checking their cell phone every time it goes Ding >> or rings? >> >> Do they have their own tools and do they know how to operate tools like >> your hydraulic draw punch or wire tugger without F%$ing it up or hurting >> themselves? >> >> >> >> Does anyone do a background check on new hires? >> >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Dana Orzel >> >> Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 >> >> E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com >> >> O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 >> >> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >> >> *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Ray Walters >> *Sent:* Thursday, April 16, 2015 4:50 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Apprentice >> >> >> >> Hi Folks; >> >> I am considering hiring an apprentice, and I wanted to know if any else >> has tried this, and what advice and experience everyone had to offer. >> Also what would be the best way to advertise: Craig's List? >> >> * Wanted passionate techy soul to share warm fires and cold brews with, >> watch beautiful sunsets over off grid arrays in remote locations, sometimes >> carry leaky hazardous materials*..... >> mmmm. Obviously I need some help. >> >> Thanks in Advance, >> >> -- >> >> R.Ray Walters >> >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> >> Licensed Master Electrician >> >> Solar Design Engineer >> >> 303 505-8760 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > Chris Mason > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Design Engineer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > www.cometsolar.com > 264.235.5670 > 869.662.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john at gosolar.co.nz Sat Apr 18 16:29:09 2015 From: john at gosolar.co.nz (John) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2015 08:29:09 +1200 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Manufacturers warranty...... Message-ID: <000b01d07a16$533c3bf0$f9b4b3d0$@gosolar.co.nz> Hi All, what sort of policy applies in the U.S. when one has to go out to replace a product covered under the manufacturer's warranty. I realize that this is a historic problem for those in the U.S. but what did it take to change the manufacturers minds about this. We have a local manufacturer of Grid-tied inverters (Enasolar) that refuses to pay out for us to go out and replace their inverter under their 5 year warranty. Otherwise they are a good company and good manufacturer of quality product. Their reason they have for that policy is that it is "because of the pricing and business model that we have implemented" I have let them know that the next time this might occur, they can go out themselves and own up to their warranty. Thanks for any advice - cheers, John Veix, N.Z. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solar1online at charter.net Sun Apr 19 00:17:22 2015 From: solar1online at charter.net (Bill Loesch) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2015 23:17:22 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Manufacturers warranty...... In-Reply-To: <000b01d07a16$533c3bf0$f9b4b3d0$@gosolar.co.nz> References: <000b01d07a16$533c3bf0$f9b4b3d0$@gosolar.co.nz> Message-ID: <55332C52.2060209@charter.net> Hi John, There are some critical details lacking in your question; however, I=20 would be most interested in the manufacturers of US product (or let me=20 say that more accurately, manufacturers "based" in the US providing=20 warranty of their US or China or ??? manufactured product) response to=20 this question. Compare and contrast is the term I remember from school (almost eons ago). Thanks, Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 On 18-Apr-15 3:29 PM, John wrote: > > Hi All, what sort of policy applies in the U.S. when one has to go=20 > out to replace a product covered under the manufacturer=E2=80=99s warrant= y. I=20 > realize that this is a historic problem for those in the U.S. but what=20 > did it take to change the manufacturers minds about this. > > We have a local manufacturer of Grid-tied inverters (Enasolar) that=20 > refuses to pay out for us to go out and replace their inverter under=20 > their 5 year warranty. Otherwise they are a good company and good=20 > manufacturer of quality product. > > Their reason they have for that policy is that it is =E2=80=9Cbecause of= the=20 > pricing and business model that we have implemented=E2=80=9D > > I have let them know that the next time this might occur, they can go=20 > out themselves and own up to their warranty. > > Thanks for any advice =E2=80=93 cheers, John Veix, N.Z. > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2015.0.5863 / Virus Database: 4331/9568 - Release Date: 04/18/15 > ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5863 / Virus Database: 4331/9570 - Release Date: 04/18/15 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Mon Apr 20 09:37:10 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 07:37:10 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Manufacturers warranty...... In-Reply-To: <000b01d07a16$533c3bf0$f9b4b3d0$@gosolar.co.nz> References: <000b01d07a16$533c3bf0$f9b4b3d0$@gosolar.co.nz> Message-ID: <55350106.3090009@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wayne at pureenergysolar.com Mon Apr 20 09:39:13 2015 From: wayne at pureenergysolar.com (Wayne Irwin) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 09:39:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Manufacturers warranty...... In-Reply-To: <55350106.3090009@sindelarsolar.com> References: <000b01d07a16$533c3bf0$f9b4b3d0$@gosolar.co.nz>, <55350106.3090009@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Same story with OB. We just have to eat it. Wayne Irwin, President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com http://PureEnergySolar.com http://SolarChargingStation.net 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 07:37:10 -0600 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Manufacturers warranty...... John, There hasn't been much response to your question yet. What little I can offer is that there are no relevant laws here governing product warranty policies. I think that the only approaches that you have are 1) to let the company know (by emailed letter to the named person in the highest position that you can identify, with cc's to a few others at the company to make your letter harder to bury or ignore) that until their no-compensation policy is corrected, you will look elsewhere for equivalent products; and 2) to attempt to motivate others in the industry down there to do the same - that is, public shaming. Based on what you wrote, you certainly have a valid case in the court of public opinion. Allan Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell Hi All, what sort of policy applies in the U.S. when one has to go out to replace a product covered under the manufacturer’s warranty. I realize that this is a historic problem for those in the U.S. but what did it take to change the manufacturers minds about this. We have a local manufacturer of Grid-tied inverters (Enasolar) that refuses to pay out for us to go out and replace their inverter under their 5 year warranty. Otherwise they are a good company and good manufacturer of quality product. Their reason they have for that policy is that it is “because of the pricing and business model that we have implemented” I have let them know that the next time this might occur, they can go out themselves and own up to their warranty. Thanks for any advice – cheers, John Veix, N.Z. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 09:47:44 2015 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 07:47:44 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Manufacturers warranty...... In-Reply-To: References: <000b01d07a16$533c3bf0$f9b4b3d0$@gosolar.co.nz> <55350106.3090009@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Hi John, I've never had a problem with a grid-tied inverter products here in the states, getting some compensation for warranty work. As far as off-grid, I think only SMA will compensate you for warranty work here. I think $250/inverter is typical for string inverters, and I'm not sure with microinverters. The compensation is not really enough to cover the time, but at least its something. Good Luck On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 7:39 AM, Wayne Irwin wrote: > Same story with OB. We just have to eat it. > > > Wayne Irwin, > President > License #CVC56695 > State Licensed Solar Contractor > Pure Energy Solar International Inc. > Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com > http://PureEnergySolar.com > http://SolarChargingStation.net > 352 377-6527 Office > 352 336-3299 Fax > > > The Sun Is Always Shining! > > The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are > not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use > or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail > and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. > > > ------------------------------ > Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 07:37:10 -0600 > From: allan at sindelarsolar.com > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Manufacturers warranty...... > > John, > There hasn't been much response to your question yet. What little I can > offer is that there are no relevant laws here governing product warranty > policies. I think that the only approaches that you have are 1) to let the > company know (by emailed letter to the named person in the highest position > that you can identify, with cc's to a few others at the company to make > your letter harder to bury or ignore) that until their no-compensation > policy is corrected, you will look elsewhere for equivalent products; and > 2) to attempt to motivate others in the industry down there to do the same > - that is, public shaming. Based on what you wrote, you certainly have a > valid case in the court of public opinion. > Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* > > Hi All, what sort of policy applies in the U.S. when one has to go out > to replace a product covered under the manufacturer’s warranty. I realize > that this is a historic problem for those in the U.S. but what did it take > to change the manufacturers minds about this. > > > > We have a local manufacturer of Grid-tied inverters (Enasolar) that > refuses to pay out for us to go out and replace their inverter under their > 5 year warranty. Otherwise they are a good company and good manufacturer > of quality product. > > > > Their reason they have for that policy is that it is “because of the > pricing and business model that we have implemented” > > > > I have let them know that the next time this might occur, they can go out > themselves and own up to their warranty. > > > > Thanks for any advice – cheers, John Veix, N.Z. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood > Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change > listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or > update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solar1online at charter.net Mon Apr 20 13:08:51 2015 From: solar1online at charter.net (Bill Loesch) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 12:08:51 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace DR Series-Control Board Commonality Between Units In-Reply-To: <55332C52.2060209@charter.net> References: <000b01d07a16$533c3bf0$f9b4b3d0$@gosolar.co.nz> <55332C52.2060209@charter.net> Message-ID: <553532A3.8090604@charter.net> Hi GreyBeards, Does anyone remember the Trace DR Series of transformer based inverters? I have a user who has suffered a lightning strike and has wasted the control board on their 1512 (no lights when battery power is applied). The board from my 3624 fits precisely into the space and after changing the jumpers, the lights light up and powers a small load. The small load is all I've tried so far. It occurred to me to verify this is an approved solution before I waste a good board, if I haven't already. If these boards are interchangeable, does anyone have defunct DR equipment (with a serviceable control board) or if they are not interchangeable, specifically a 1512 control board? Alternatively, does anyone provide board level diagnostics/repair? As always, thanks for the wisdom that this newsgroup offers, Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5863 / Virus Database: 4331/9583 - Release Date: 04/20/15 From boB at midnitesolar.com Mon Apr 20 13:38:45 2015 From: boB at midnitesolar.com (boB at midnitesolar.com) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 10:38:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace DR Series-Control Board Commonality Between Units In-Reply-To: <553532A3.8090604@charter.net> References: <000b01d07a16$533c3bf0$f9b4b3d0$@gosolar.co.nz> <55332C52.2060209@charter.net> <553532A3.8090604@charter.net> Message-ID: <553539A5.9070502@midnitesolar.com> You didn't touch the power board ? If changing out the control board seems to make it work and regulate output voltage properly, it's probably good and I would try running some larger loads to test it. You may have gotten lucky. Unless you want to keep that old replacement board for a special occasion, I'd go with it. Can't hurt, right ? It may or may not charge though ? The charger uses a triac that may or may not be good still. boB On 4/20/2015 10:08 AM, Bill Loesch wrote: > > Hi GreyBeards, > > Does anyone remember the Trace DR Series of transformer based > inverters? I have a user who has suffered a lightning strike and has > wasted the control board on their 1512 (no lights when battery power > is applied). The board from my 3624 fits precisely into the space and > after changing the jumpers, the lights light up and powers a small > load. The small load is all I've tried so far. It occurred to me to > verify this is an approved solution before I waste a good board, if I > haven't already. > > If these boards are interchangeable, does anyone have defunct DR > equipment (with a serviceable control board) or if they are not > interchangeable, specifically a 1512 control board? Alternatively, > does anyone provide board level diagnostics/repair? > > As always, thanks for the wisdom that this newsgroup offers, > > Bill Loesch > Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar > 314 631 1094 > > > From dana at solarwork.com Mon Apr 20 13:31:10 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 11:31:10 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace DR Series-Control Board Commonality Between Units In-Reply-To: <553532A3.8090604@charter.net> References: <000b01d07a16$533c3bf0$f9b4b3d0$@gosolar.co.nz> <55332C52.2060209@charter.net> <553532A3.8090604@charter.net> Message-ID: <004b01d07b8f$cb6bbe00$62433a00$@com> Try - Robert @ the One stop custom shop - 719.495.2740 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill Loesch Sent: Monday, April 20, 2015 11:09 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace DR Series-Control Board Commonality Between Units Hi GreyBeards, Does anyone remember the Trace DR Series of transformer based inverters? I have a user who has suffered a lightning strike and has wasted the control board on their 1512 (no lights when battery power is applied). The board from my 3624 fits precisely into the space and after changing the jumpers, the lights light up and powers a small load. The small load is all I've tried so far. It occurred to me to verify this is an approved solution before I waste a good board, if I haven't already. If these boards are interchangeable, does anyone have defunct DR equipment (with a serviceable control board) or if they are not interchangeable, specifically a 1512 control board? Alternatively, does anyone provide board level diagnostics/repair? As always, thanks for the wisdom that this newsgroup offers, Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5863 / Virus Database: 4331/9583 - Release Date: 04/20/15 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From chris at OasisMontana.com Tue Apr 21 17:44:43 2015 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (Chris Daum) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 15:44:43 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators In-Reply-To: <5526E3D0.1060202@IcarusSolarServices.com> Message-ID: Hi folks: Does anyone have a half dozen or so Kyocera 54 cell modules on hand? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Tue Apr 21 17:47:28 2015 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (Chris Daum) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 15:47:28 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Older Kyocera modules In-Reply-To: <5526E3D0.1060202@IcarusSolarServices.com> Message-ID: Hi folks: Does anyone have a half dozen or so Kyocera 54 cell modules on hand? 205's or 210/s, 54 cell modules? Also any smaller modules (60 - 80W range) that are 24V nominal? THANKS and feel free to contact me offlist. Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. info at oasismontana.com 406-777-4309 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Tue Apr 21 19:35:12 2015 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 19:35:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Manufacturers warranty...... In-Reply-To: References: <000b01d07a16$533c3bf0$f9b4b3d0$@gosolar.co.nz> <55350106.3090009@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: This is exactly why I push the SMA SI/SB product lines. Yep quite the price point but hassle free (my personal experience) tech support & IF required, hassle free replacement + shipping both ways on them! Something I stress with my clients... your off grid, why do you want a product that the manufacture is unwilling to replace repair or compensate the installer, just makes for an all around pissed off bunch of folks. Some pay up front and some wish they had! On Apr 20, 2015, at 9:47 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi John, > > I've never had a problem with a grid-tied inverter products here in the states, getting some compensation for warranty work. As far as off-grid, I think only SMA will compensate you for warranty work here. I think $250/inverter is typical for string inverters, and I'm not sure with microinverters. The compensation is not really enough to cover the time, but at least its something. > > Good Luck > > On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 7:39 AM, Wayne Irwin wrote: > Same story with OB. We just have to eat it. > > > Wayne Irwin, > President > License #CVC56695 > State Licensed Solar Contractor > Pure Energy Solar International Inc. > Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com > http://PureEnergySolar.com > http://SolarChargingStation.net > 352 377-6527 Office > 352 336-3299 Fax > > > The Sun Is Always Shining! > > The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. > > > > Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 07:37:10 -0600 > From: allan at sindelarsolar.com > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Manufacturers warranty...... > > John, > There hasn't been much response to your question yet. What little I can offer is that there are no relevant laws here governing product warranty policies. I think that the only approaches that you have are 1) to let the company know (by emailed letter to the named person in the highest position that you can identify, with cc's to a few others at the company to make your letter harder to bury or ignore) that until their no-compensation policy is corrected, you will look elsewhere for equivalent products; and 2) to attempt to motivate others in the industry down there to do the same - that is, public shaming. Based on what you wrote, you certainly have a valid case in the court of public opinion. > Allan > > Allan Sindelar > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > 505 780-2738 cell > > Hi All, what sort of policy applies in the U.S. when one has to go out to replace a product covered under the manufacturer’s warranty. I realize that this is a historic problem for those in the U.S. but what did it take to change the manufacturers minds about this. > > > We have a local manufacturer of Grid-tied inverters (Enasolar) that refuses to pay out for us to go out and replace their inverter under their 5 year warranty. Otherwise they are a good company and good manufacturer of quality product. > > > Their reason they have for that policy is that it is “because of the pricing and business model that we have implemented” > > > I have let them know that the next time this might occur, they can go out themselves and own up to their warranty. > > > Thanks for any advice – cheers, John Veix, N.Z. > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Wed Apr 22 01:03:01 2015 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 22:03:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Manufacturers warranty...... References: <000b01d07a16$533c3bf0$f9b4b3d0$@gosolar.co.nz><55350106.3090009@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <39CF6970BB364AF18B739B790B64864C@D8XG8YH1> My recent experience with SMA was $150 for the warranty change out of one of their string inverters. It was a significant hassle and took months to receive a check. You have to know that they offer the $150, If you don't ask, they won't offer it. Whereas Fronius almost insists they pay you $250 for a warranty change out, easy and prompt. SMA used to ship from Rocklin, CA, now you have to wait for it to come from Colorado. Anybody know Magnum's policy? Bill Feather River Solar Electric ----- Original Message ----- From: Mac Lewis To: RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, April 20, 2015 6:47 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Manufacturers warranty...... Hi John, I've never had a problem with a grid-tied inverter products here in the states, getting some compensation for warranty work. As far as off-grid, I think only SMA will compensate you for warranty work here. I think $250/inverter is typical for string inverters, and I'm not sure with microinverters. The compensation is not really enough to cover the time, but at least its something. Good Luck -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Wed Apr 22 14:38:59 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Larry) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 11:38:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Manufacturers warranty...... In-Reply-To: <39CF6970BB364AF18B739B790B64864C@D8XG8YH1> References: <000b01d07a16$533c3bf0$f9b4b3d0$@gosolar.co.nz><55350106.3090009@sindelarsolar.com> <39CF6970BB364AF18B739B790B64864C@D8XG8YH1> Message-ID: <5537EAC3.90807@starlightsolar.com> Hi Bill, Because of the nature of my business, we have designed and installed thousands of small RE systems. As a result I install a much higher volume of components and consequently deal with a greater number of failed units. Over the last 14 years, Magnum Energy and Kyocera are the only companies that have offered hassle free compensation for labor. Magnum has established time for each repair whereas Kyocera pays for all of our R&R time. Fronius? Took me a year and many arguments, pleading, emails and phone calls to get them to cough up payment for an inverter that _they insisted_ I return to them. (BTW, this was the 3rd inverter swap) Then, instead of mailing me a check, they issued a credit to Sunwize that only applied to future Fronius purchases, something which I will never do again. A boat load of crap later I got the credit applied to my account. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On 4/21/15 10:03 PM, frenergy wrote: > My recent experience with SMA was $150 for the warranty change out of > one of their string inverters. It was a significant hassle and took > months to receive a check. You have to know that they offer the $150, > If you don't ask, they won't offer it. Whereas Fronius almost insists > they pay you $250 for a warranty change out, easy and prompt. SMA > used to ship from Rocklin, CA, now you have to wait for it to come > from Colorado. > Anybody know Magnum's policy? > Bill > Feather River Solar Electric > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Apr 22 15:44:20 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 15:44:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Manufacturers warranty...... In-Reply-To: <5537EAC3.90807@starlightsolar.com> References: <000b01d07a16$533c3bf0$f9b4b3d0$@gosolar.co.nz> <55350106.3090009@sindelarsolar.com> <39CF6970BB364AF18B739B790B64864C@D8XG8YH1> <5537EAC3.90807@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: While Fronius did pay us for many $250 inverter swaps, the process was a real hassle. They made us talk to customer service from the site to do diagnostics (which is not always possible due to the hours we work). They made us do this despite obvious need for replacement in 100% of the cases. It was just a bunch of BS hoops to jump through. It gets expensive when you have to make 2 or 3 trips just to do what you know is inevitably coming. I can't complain about the payment time-frame, but they frequently sent us paperwork with no job reference, so tying everything together was a hassle as well. We dealt with the dealer credit nonsense and the multiple inverter swap confusion with them multiple times, too. Fortunately most of the swaps were for customers of a defunct dealer, so they were ultimately happy with us for helping them out. Some calls are still trickling in. Jason Szumlanski On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 2:38 PM, Larry wrote: > Hi Bill, > > Because of the nature of my business, we have designed and installed > thousands of small RE systems. As a result I install a much higher volume > of components and consequently deal with a greater number of failed units. > Over the last 14 years, Magnum Energy and Kyocera are the only companies > that have offered hassle free compensation for labor. Magnum has > established time for each repair whereas Kyocera pays for all of our R&R > time. > > Fronius? Took me a year and many arguments, pleading, emails and phone > calls to get them to cough up payment for an inverter that *they insisted* > I return to them. (BTW, this was the 3rd inverter swap) Then, instead of > mailing me a check, they issued a credit to Sunwize that only applied to > future Fronius purchases, something which I will never do again. A boat > load of crap later I got the credit applied to my account. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > On 4/21/15 10:03 PM, frenergy wrote: > > My recent experience with SMA was $150 for the warranty change out of one > of their string inverters. It was a significant hassle and took months to > receive a check. You have to know that they offer the $150, If you don't > ask, they won't offer it. Whereas Fronius almost insists they pay you $250 > for a warranty change out, easy and prompt. SMA used to ship from > Rocklin, CA, now you have to wait for it to come from Colorado. > > Anybody know Magnum's policy? > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 20:15:53 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay peltz) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 17:15:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Manufacturers warranty...... In-Reply-To: <5537EAC3.90807@starlightsolar.com> References: <000b01d07a16$533c3bf0$f9b4b3d0$@gosolar.co.nz> <55350106.3090009@sindelarsolar.com> <39CF6970BB364AF18B739B790B64864C@D8XG8YH1> <5537EAC3.90807@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: HI Larry, How much does Magnum pay you? For me, I've had nothing but horror stories with magnum warranty, and now to find out I've been getting screwed out of payment? Now I'm really unhappy. jay peltz power On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 11:38 AM, Larry wrote: > Hi Bill, > > Because of the nature of my business, we have designed and installed > thousands of small RE systems. As a result I install a much higher volume > of components and consequently deal with a greater number of failed units. > Over the last 14 years, Magnum Energy and Kyocera are the only companies > that have offered hassle free compensation for labor. Magnum has > established time for each repair whereas Kyocera pays for all of our R&R > time. > > Fronius? Took me a year and many arguments, pleading, emails and phone > calls to get them to cough up payment for an inverter that *they insisted* > I return to them. (BTW, this was the 3rd inverter swap) Then, instead of > mailing me a check, they issued a credit to Sunwize that only applied to > future Fronius purchases, something which I will never do again. A boat > load of crap later I got the credit applied to my account. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > On 4/21/15 10:03 PM, frenergy wrote: > > My recent experience with SMA was $150 for the warranty change out of one > of their string inverters. It was a significant hassle and took months to > receive a check. You have to know that they offer the $150, If you don't > ask, they won't offer it. Whereas Fronius almost insists they pay you $250 > for a warranty change out, easy and prompt. SMA used to ship from > Rocklin, CA, now you have to wait for it to come from Colorado. > > Anybody know Magnum's policy? > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- jay peltz peltz power jay.peltz at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Richard.L.Ratico at valley.net Wed Apr 22 20:32:49 2015 From: Richard.L.Ratico at valley.net (Richard L Ratico) Date: 22 Apr 2015 20:32:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Manufacturers warranty...... Message-ID: <178281045@retriever.VALLEY.NET> I had a similar bad experience with Fronius. I was initially told they would cut me a check. When it came down to it, that changed to a an offer of a credit for future Fronius products purchased through my distributer. They owed me $500.00. I didn't bother with their credit and have only sold / installed their competitors products since. Dick Ratico Solarwind Electric --- You wrote: Hi Bill, Because of the nature of my business, we have designed and installed thousands of small RE systems. As a result I install a much higher volume of components and consequently deal with a greater number of failed units. Over the last 14 years, Magnum Energy and Kyocera are the only companies that have offered hassle free compensation for labor. Magnum has established time for each repair whereas Kyocera pays for all of our R&R time. Fronius? Took me a year and many arguments, pleading, emails and phone calls to get them to cough up payment for an inverter that _they insisted_ I return to them. (BTW, this was the 3rd inverter swap) Then, instead of mailing me a check, they issued a credit to Sunwize that only applied to future Fronius purchases, something which I will never do again. A boat load of crap later I got the credit applied to my account. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On 4/21/15 10:03 PM, frenergy wrote: > My recent experience with SMA was $150 for the warranty change out of > one of their string inverters. It was a significant hassle and took > months to receive a check. You have to know that they offer the $150, > If you don't ask, they won't offer it. Whereas Fronius almost insists > they pay you $250 for a warranty change out, easy and prompt. SMA > used to ship from Rocklin, CA, now you have to wait for it to come > from Colorado. > Anybody know Magnum's policy? > Bill > Feather River Solar Electric > --- end of quote --- From larry at starlightsolar.com Wed Apr 22 21:03:38 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Larry) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 18:03:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Manufacturers warranty...... In-Reply-To: References: <000b01d07a16$533c3bf0$f9b4b3d0$@gosolar.co.nz> <55350106.3090009@sindelarsolar.com> <39CF6970BB364AF18B739B790B64864C@D8XG8YH1> <5537EAC3.90807@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <553844EA.5080404@starlightsolar.com> Jay, There is a Warranty Claim form that you need to fill out. (see attachment). Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On 4/22/15 5:15 PM, jay peltz wrote: > HI Larry, > > How much does Magnum pay you? For me, I've had nothing but horror > stories with magnum warranty, > and now to find out I've been getting screwed out of payment? > Now I'm really unhappy. > > jay > peltz power > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jhihhfjj. Type: image/png Size: 173710 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 21:19:16 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay peltz) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 18:19:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Manufacturers warranty...... In-Reply-To: References: <000b01d07a16$533c3bf0$f9b4b3d0$@gosolar.co.nz> <55350106.3090009@sindelarsolar.com> <39CF6970BB364AF18B739B790B64864C@D8XG8YH1> <5537EAC3.90807@starlightsolar.com> <553844EA.5080404@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 6:08 PM, jay peltz wrote: > HI Larry, > thanks. I'm still Pissed. I've spent what 20-30+ ( I'm happy to expand > on this for those who care) hrs talking to them over the years, and no > mention, funny how that works. > But they still want me to buy their stuff. > Humm I think there are other companies out there. > > thanks again, > jay > > -- jay peltz peltz power jay.peltz at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at ecologicalsystems.biz Thu Apr 23 00:26:59 2015 From: sky at ecologicalsystems.biz (sky at ecologicalsystems.biz) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 00:26:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have some KD205's here's a link to their spec sheet. http://www.kyocerasolar.com/assets/001/5206.pdf Sky www.EcologicalSystems.biz > On Apr 21, 2015, at 5:44 PM, Chris Daum wrote: > > Hi folks: > > Does anyone have a half dozen or so Kyocera 54 cell modules on hand? > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Thu Apr 23 10:03:05 2015 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (Chris Daum) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 08:03:05 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Kyocera modules In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <845704D2A2BB49A0AFC836B1AF97E809@OasisChris> Hi Sky: Do you have six and what would you want for them? Sincerely, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 406-777-0830 fax www.oasismontana.com _____ From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of sky at ecologicalsystems.biz Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2015 10:27 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Kyocera modules I have some KD205's here's a link to their spec sheet. http://www.kyocerasolar.com/assets/001/5206.pdf Sky www.EcologicalSystems.biz On Apr 21, 2015, at 5:44 PM, Chris Daum wrote: Hi folks: Does anyone have a half dozen or so Kyocera 54 cell modules on hand? _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bruce at willpowerelect.com Sat Apr 25 15:40:52 2015 From: bruce at willpowerelect.com (bruce at willpowerelect.com) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2015 12:40:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Extreme_snow_load_ground_mount=3F?= Message-ID: <20150425124052.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.c9acbaf1ec.wbe@email02.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sigimg0 Type: image/jpeg Size: 3467 bytes Desc: not available URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Sat Apr 25 16:36:33 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2015 14:36:33 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Water level testing In-Reply-To: <89491615-42B1-4123-B0DB-0ED8F0AC9D74@mac.com> References: <89491615-42B1-4123-B0DB-0ED8F0AC9D74@mac.com> Message-ID: <553BFAD1.90002@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Measuring water well levels.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 78896 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dana at solarwork.com Sat Apr 25 15:48:30 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2015 13:48:30 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Extreme snow load ground mount? In-Reply-To: <20150425124052.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.c9acbaf1ec.wbe@email02.secureserver.net> References: <20150425124052.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.c9acbaf1ec.wbe@email02.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <004b01d07f90$cec0e2b0$6c42a810$@com> What is the highest PV module snow rating? 113 PSF is the highest I have seen I here in CO & ID 100 is the highest required . __________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 dana at solarwork.com - www.solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 F - 970.626.4140 c - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of bruce at willpowerelect.com Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2015 1:41 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Extreme snow load ground mount? Would this work for you? http://willpowerelectric.blogspot.com/p/h2e-is-harsh-to-extreme-solution.html Bruce Fiero-RMI Willpower Electric LLC 4115 S Pacific Hwy Medford, OR 97501-9103 Phone: 541-535-3965 Fax: 541-512-0061 Email: bruce at willpowerelect.com Web: www.willpower-electric.com Oregon Electrical Contractor C681 CCB 191852 DUNS 191470363 NABCEP Certified PV Trade Ally of Energy Trust of Oregon Oregon Solar Tax Credit Certified Technician "I'd put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don't have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that." T. Edison, 1931 -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Extreme snow load ground mount? From: "frenergy" Date: Fri, January 16, 2015 9:17 pm To: "RE-wrenches"  Lars, Yes, the only way you can even consider an install like this is a pole mount, with a steep tilt in the winter to shed most of the snow. It would help to know if the place will be used in the winter or summer and how big of an array in KW or Sq Ft. Customer would have to understand that you cannot guarantee it...there are some combinations of wind-snow-temp-moisture that make snow cling to anything. If this is permitted, start dropping off cookies to an engineer. Bill Where the Sierra meets the Cascades ----- Original Message ----- From: Lars Ortegren To: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2015 11:30 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Extreme snow load ground mount? Wrenches, I have a fun one for you. We have a couple of potential clients who live in the high Sierra with a 420 LB design snow load. After hunting around, not even a three rail system comes close with any module I can find, so now I'm looking for a pole top that will dump the snow, and still handle 120 mph winds. Any ideas? I would just say sorry, no solar for you,but like many of you I love a challenge. -- Lars Örtegren/ President California Solar Electric Company PO Box 480/149 E.Main St Grass Valley, CA 95945 Phone : (530)274-3671 Fax: (530)274-7518 California C-10 Electrical Contractor #779624 ATTENTION This E-mail may contain CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended only for the use of the Individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient of this E-mail, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination or copying this E-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this E-mail in error, please immediately notify us by telephone at (530)274-3671 or E-mail lars at cal-solar.com or contact at cal-solar.com. _____ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _____ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2889 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solarjon at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 19:33:09 2015 From: solarjon at gmail.com (Jonathan Hill) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2015 16:33:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Extreme snow load ground mount? In-Reply-To: <004b01d07f90$cec0e2b0$6c42a810$@com> References: <20150425124052.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.c9acbaf1ec.wbe@email02.secureserver.net> <004b01d07f90$cec0e2b0$6c42a810$@com> Message-ID: <87F9EDC7-BD78-4EC4-A53C-C41B5A9681B6@gmail.com> Lars- What Bill said. Done it several times without incident. Jonathan Hill, senior solar applications engineer 530-559-3781 solarjon at gmail.com > On Apr 25, 2015, at 12:48 PM, Dana wrote: > > What is the highest PV module snow rating? 113 PSF is the highest I have seen I here in CO & ID 100 is the highest required . > > __________________________________________________________ > Dana Orzel > Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 > dana at solarwork.com - www.solarwork.com > O - 970.626.5253 F - 970.626.4140 c - 208.721.7003 > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of bruce at willpowerelect.com > Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2015 1:41 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Extreme snow load ground mount? > > Would this work for you? > > http://willpowerelectric.blogspot.com/p/h2e-is-harsh-to-extreme-solution.html > > > Bruce Fiero-RMI > > > > Willpower Electric LLC > 4115 S Pacific Hwy > Medford, OR 97501-9103 > Phone: 541-535-3965 > Fax: 541-512-0061 > Email: bruce at willpowerelect.com > Web: www.willpower-electric.com > > Oregon Electrical Contractor C681 > CCB 191852 > DUNS 191470363 > NABCEP Certified PV > Trade Ally of Energy Trust of Oregon > Oregon Solar Tax Credit Certified Technician > > > "I'd put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don't have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that." T. Edison, 1931 > > >> -------- Original Message -------- >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Extreme snow load ground mount? >> From: "frenergy" > >> Date: Fri, January 16, 2015 9:17 pm >> To: "RE-wrenches" > >> >>  >> Lars, >> >> Yes, the only way you can even consider an install like this is a pole mount, with a steep tilt in the winter to shed most of the snow. It would help to know if the place will be used in the winter or summer and how big of an array in KW or Sq Ft. Customer would have to understand that you cannot guarantee it...there are some combinations of wind-snow-temp-moisture that make snow cling to anything. If this is permitted, start dropping off cookies to an engineer. >> >> Bill >> Where the Sierra meets the Cascades >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Lars Ortegren >>> To: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2015 11:30 AM >>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Extreme snow load ground mount? >>> >>> Wrenches, >>> I have a fun one for you. We have a couple of potential clients who live in the high Sierra with a 420 LB design snow load. After hunting around, not even a three rail system comes close with any module I can find, so now I'm looking for a pole top that will dump the snow, and still handle 120 mph winds. Any ideas? I would just say sorry, no solar for you,but like many of you I love a challenge. >>> >>> -- >>> Lars Örtegren/ President >>> >>> PO Box 480/149 E.Main St >>> Grass Valley, CA 95945 >>> Phone : (530)274-3671 Fax: (530)274-7518 >>> California C-10 Electrical Contractor #779624 >>> >>> ATTENTION >>> This E-mail may contain CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended only for the use of the Individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient of this E-mail, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination or copying this E-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this E-mail in error, please immediately notify us by telephone at (530)274-3671 or E-mail l ars at cal-solar.com or contact at cal-solar.com . >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat Apr 25 20:30:03 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2015 18:30:03 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Water level testing In-Reply-To: <553BFAD1.90002@sindelarsolar.com> References: <89491615-42B1-4123-B0DB-0ED8F0AC9D74@mac.com> <553BFAD1.90002@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <553C318B.8030902@solarray.com> I agree with Windy and this article, the electric sounders can be finicky. I've never tried the airline method, but some well folks from Texas taught me to use an inverted plumbing fitting on a string. When it hits the water you can feel it on the line, because the small pocket of trapped air causes the weight to stall momentarily. You can confirm by repeatedly raising it and "popping" it at the water surface. If its quiet, you can hear it too. The bottom of the well can be sounded just like with any weighted line: raise and lower repeatedly, finding the spot that the line goes slack. I've used this as deep as 800 ft. For shallower wells we just attach this fitting straight to our 300 ft measuring tape; if it's deeper, we tape the string to mark the water level and Total depth, then measure the string after. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 4/25/2015 2:36 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > For those Wrenches that work with deep-well water pumping > installations, the attached guide is useful to file away for later > use. Windy sent it to me, and it has three options for determining the > depth of water in a well. > I taped a 1/4" plastic irrigation tube to the hand-installation-method > bundle of flexible pipe, wire, signal wire and safety rope in an > installation yesterday. Easy rough-in for testing water table drop and > pump submergence over years. > > The guide was published in 2000 by the Oregon State University > Extension Service. > Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > ** > > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > Subject: air tube for water level testing > Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 19:07:37 -0600 > From: Windy Dankoff > To: Allan Sindelar > > > Following is a very cheap means of testing depth to water, pump running or not. > > Allan - Get 230 feet of 1/4" irrigation tube to put down the well. It will be used to make pressure test at any time, using a bicycle pump. > > Instructions attached. This will be for use of the "Air Line" method shown on this doc. Tape the tubing to the pipe, along with the level probe > cable. The bottom of tube can be where the probe is - just above the check valve. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Sun Apr 26 17:56:30 2015 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2015 17:56:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Water level testing In-Reply-To: <553BFAD1.90002@sindelarsolar.com> References: <89491615-42B1-4123-B0DB-0ED8F0AC9D74@mac.com> <553BFAD1.90002@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: There's an Arduino project that uses the same method but uses an aquarium pump and an electronic pressure sensor. The advantage is you get constant data over the network and you can use a relay to disable to the pump at predetermined depths. http://www.practicalarduino.com/projects/water-tank-depth-sensor On Sat, Apr 25, 2015 at 4:36 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > For those Wrenches that work with deep-well water pumping installations, > the attached guide is useful to file away for later use. Windy sent it to > me, and it has three options for determining the depth of water in a well. > I taped a 1/4" plastic irrigation tube to the hand-installation-method > bundle of flexible pipe, wire, signal wire and safety rope in an > installation yesterday. Easy rough-in for testing water table drop and pump > submergence over years. > > The guide was published in 2000 by the Oregon State University Extension > Service. > Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* > > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: air tube for water level > testing Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 19:07:37 -0600 From: Windy Dankoff To: Allan > Sindelar > > Following is a very cheap means of testing depth to water, pump running or not. > > Allan - Get 230 feet of 1/4" irrigation tube to put down the well. It will be used to make pressure test at any time, using a bicycle pump. > > Instructions attached. This will be for use of the "Air Line" method shown on this doc. Tape the tubing to the pipe, along with the level probe > cable. The bottom of tube can be where the probe is - just above the check valve. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Sun Apr 26 16:32:59 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2015 14:32:59 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Extreme snow load ground mount? In-Reply-To: <87F9EDC7-BD78-4EC4-A53C-C41B5A9681B6@gmail.com> References: <20150425124052.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.c9acbaf1ec.wbe@email02.secureserver.net> <004b01d07f90$cec0e2b0$6c42a810$@com> <87F9EDC7-BD78-4EC4-A53C-C41B5A9681B6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <005001d08060$303638e0$90a2aaa0$@com> Nice rack! However if the panels are not rated for more the 100-113 PSF, the design is still not acceptable if the AHJ wants 420 PSF right? Q – What is the stoutest PV module out there? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan Hill Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2015 5:33 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Extreme snow load ground mount? Lars- What Bill said. Done it several times without incident. Jonathan Hill, senior solar applications engineer 530-559-3781 solarjon at gmail.com On Apr 25, 2015, at 12:48 PM, Dana wrote: What is the highest PV module snow rating? 113 PSF is the highest I have seen I here in CO & ID 100 is the highest required . __________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 dana at solarwork.com - www.solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 F - 970.626.4140 c - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" From: RE-wrenches [ mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of bruce at willpowerelect.com Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2015 1:41 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Extreme snow load ground mount? Would this work for you? http://willpowerelectric.blogspot.com/p/h2e-is-harsh-to-extreme-solution.html Bruce Fiero-RMI Willpower Electric LLC 4115 S Pacific Hwy Medford, OR 97501-9103 Phone: 541-535-3965 Fax: 541-512-0061 Email: bruce at willpowerelect.com Web: www.willpower-electric.com Oregon Electrical Contractor C681 CCB 191852 DUNS 191470363 NABCEP Certified PV Trade Ally of Energy Trust of Oregon Oregon Solar Tax Credit Certified Technician "I'd put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don't have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that." T. Edison, 1931 -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Extreme snow load ground mount? From: "frenergy" < frenergy at psln.com> Date: Fri, January 16, 2015 9:17 pm To: "RE-wrenches" < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>  Lars, Yes, the only way you can even consider an install like this is a pole mount, with a steep tilt in the winter to shed most of the snow. It would help to know if the place will be used in the winter or summer and how big of an array in KW or Sq Ft. Customer would have to understand that you cannot guarantee it...there are some combinations of wind-snow-temp-moisture that make snow cling to anything. If this is permitted, start dropping off cookies to an engineer. Bill Where the Sierra meets the Cascades ----- Original Message ----- From: Lars Ortegren To: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2015 11:30 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Extreme snow load ground mount? Wrenches, I have a fun one for you. We have a couple of potential clients who live in the high Sierra with a 420 LB design snow load. After hunting around, not even a three rail system comes close with any module I can find, so now I'm looking for a pole top that will dump the snow, and still handle 120 mph winds. Any ideas? I would just say sorry, no solar for you,but like many of you I love a challenge. -- Lars Örtegren/ President California Solar Electric Company PO Box 480/149 E.Main St Grass Valley, CA 95945 Phone : (530)274-3671 Fax: (530)274-7518 California C-10 Electrical Contractor #779624 ATTENTION This E-mail may contain CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended only for the use of the Individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient of this E-mail, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination or copying this E-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this E-mail in error, please immediately notify us by telephone at (530)274-3671 or E-mail l ars at cal-solar.com or contact at cal-solar.com. _____ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _____ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Apr 27 12:33:47 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2015 10:33:47 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Extreme snow load ground mount? In-Reply-To: <005001d08060$303638e0$90a2aaa0$@com> References: <20150425124052.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.c9acbaf1ec.wbe@email02.secureserver.net> <004b01d07f90$cec0e2b0$6c42a810$@com> <87F9EDC7-BD78-4EC4-A53C-C41B5A9681B6@gmail.com> <005001d08060$303638e0$90a2aaa0$@com> Message-ID: <553E64EB.1060206@solarray.com> Gravity only acts downward. The modules are rated to 113 PSF which is with the module laying flat. If the module is at an angle, it can take more downward force. For instance if it is at 70 degree tilt, It could take a downward force of 113 PSF / cos 70 or 330 PSF. Its possibly reasonable to assume that the snow might not slide off, but the total snow load is not going to act perpendicular to a tilted module. If the AHJ wants to argue the point, ask him what the snow load requirements are against a surface of a wall. A vertical surface would only see wind loading, not snow loading. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 4/26/2015 2:32 PM, Dana wrote: > > Nice rack! > > However if the panels are not rated for more the 100-113 PSF, the > design is still not acceptable if the AHJ wants 420 PSF right? > > Q – What is the stoutest PV module out there? > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel > > Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 > > E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com > > O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 > > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On Behalf Of *Jonathan Hill > *Sent:* Saturday, April 25, 2015 5:33 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Extreme snow load ground mount? > > Lars- > > What Bill said. Done it several times without incident. > > Jonathan Hill, senior solar applications engineer > 530-559-3781 > solarjon at gmail.com > > On Apr 25, 2015, at 12:48 PM, Dana > wrote: > > What is the highest PV module snow rating? 113 PSF is the highest > I have seen I here in CO & ID 100 is the highest required . > > __________________________________________________________ > > *Dana Orzel* > > Great Solar Works, Inc - *NABCEP # 051112-136* > > dana at solarwork.com -www.solarwork.com > > > *O*- 970.626.5253 *F*- 970.626.4140 c*-*208.721.7003 > > *_"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988_**_" _* > > *From:*RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]*On Behalf > Of*bruce at willpowerelect.com > *Sent:*Saturday, April 25, 2015 1:41 PM > *To:*RE-wrenches > *Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] Extreme snow load ground mount? > > Would this work for you? > > http://willpowerelectric.blogspot.com/p/h2e-is-harsh-to-extreme-solution.html > > Bruce Fiero-RMI > > > > *Willpower Electric LLC* > > 4115 S Pacific Hwy > > Medford, OR 97501-9103 > *Phone:*541-535-3965 > > *Fax:*541-512-0061 > > *Email:*bruce at willpowerelect.com > > *Web:*www.willpower-electric.com > > Oregon Electrical Contractor C681 > > CCB 191852 > > DUNS 191470363 > NABCEP Certified PV > > Trade Ally of Energy Trust of Oregon > Oregon Solar Tax Credit Certified Technician > > *"I'd put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of > power! I hope we don't have to wait until oil and coal run out > before we tackle that." T. Edison, 1931* > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Extreme snow load ground mount? > From: "frenergy" > > Date: Fri, January 16, 2015 9:17 pm > To: "RE-wrenches" > > >  > > Lars, > > Yes, the only way you can even consider an install like > this is a pole mount, with a steep tilt in the winter to shed > most of the snow. It would help to know if the place will be > used in the winter or summer and how big of an array in KW or > Sq Ft. Customer would have to understand that you cannot > guarantee it...there are some combinations of > wind-snow-temp-moisture that make snow cling to anything. If > this is permitted, start dropping off cookies to an engineer. > > Bill > > Where the Sierra meets the Cascades > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:*Lars Ortegren > > *To:*RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > *Sent:*Thursday, January 15, 2015 11:30 AM > > *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Extreme snow load ground mount? > > Wrenches, > > I have a fun one for you. We have a couple of potential > clients who live in the high Sierra with a 420 LB design > snow load. After hunting around, not even a three rail > system comes close with any module I can find, so now I'm > looking for a pole top that will dump the snow, and still > handle 120 mph winds. Any ideas? I would just say sorry, > no solar for you,but like many of you I love a challenge. > > -- > > */Lars Örtegren/ President/* > > California Solar Electric Company > > > PO Box 480/149 E.Main St > Grass Valley, CA 95945 > Phone : (530)274-3671 Fax: (530)274-7518 > */California C-10 Electrical Contractor #779624/* > > ATTENTION* > *This E-mail may contain CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended > only for the use of the Individual(s) named above. If you > are not the intended recipient of this E-mail, or the > employee or agent responsible for delivering it to the > intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any > dissemination or copying this E-mail is strictly > prohibited. If you have received this E-mail in error, > please immediately notify us by telephone > at_ (530)274-3671_ or E-mail l > ars at cal-solar.com > orcontact at cal-solar.com > . > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Mon Apr 27 13:19:26 2015 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2015 13:19:26 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Extreme snow load ground mount? In-Reply-To: <553E64EB.1060206@solarray.com> References: <20150425124052.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.c9acbaf1ec.wbe@email02.secureserver.net> <004b01d07f90$cec0e2b0$6c42a810$@com> <87F9EDC7-BD78-4EC4-A53C-C41B5A9681B6@gmail.com> <005001d08060$303638e0$90a2aaa0$@com> <553E64EB.1060206@solarray.com> Message-ID: <20150427173935.D04D9100DC@che.dreamhost.com> I have seen published an adjustment factor used when calculating pitched roof snow loads that is used to modify the published flat snow load value. Can't put my finger on it right now, but you could probably get more information with an intern search. I have used it on ground mount calculations. Sincerely, Glenn Burt Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. -----Original Message----- From: "Ray Walters" Sent: ‎4/‎27/‎2015 12:33 To: "dana at solarwork.com" ; "RE-wrenches" Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Extreme snow load ground mount? Gravity only acts downward. The modules are rated to 113 PSF which is with the module laying flat. If the module is at an angle, it can take more downward force. For instance if it is at 70 degree tilt, It could take a downward force of 113 PSF / cos 70 or 330 PSF. Its possibly reasonable to assume that the snow might not slide off, but the total snow load is not going to act perpendicular to a tilted module. If the AHJ wants to argue the point, ask him what the snow load requirements are against a surface of a wall. A vertical surface would only see wind loading, not snow loading. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 4/26/2015 2:32 PM, Dana wrote: > > Nice rack! > > However if the panels are not rated for more the 100-113 PSF, the > design is still not acceptable if the AHJ wants 420 PSF right? > > Q – What is the stoutest PV module out there? > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel > > Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 > > E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com > > O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 > > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On Behalf Of *Jonathan Hill > *Sent:* Saturday, April 25, 2015 5:33 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Extreme snow load ground mount? > > Lars- > > What Bill said. Done it several times without incident. > > Jonathan Hill, senior solar applications engineer > 530-559-3781 > solarjon at gmail.com > > On Apr 25, 2015, at 12:48 PM, Dana > wrote: > > What is the highest PV module snow rating? 113 PSF is the highest > I have seen I here in CO & ID 100 is the highest required . > > __________________________________________________________ > > *Dana Orzel* > > Great Solar Works, Inc - *NABCEP # 051112-136* > > dana at solarwork.com -www.solarwork.com > > > *O*- 970.626.5253 *F*- 970.626.4140 c*-*208.721.7003 > > *_"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988_**_" _* > > *From:*RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]*On Behalf > Of*bruce at willpowerelect.com > *Sent:*Saturday, April 25, 2015 1:41 PM > *To:*RE-wrenches > *Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] Extreme snow load ground mount? > > Would this work for you? > > http://willpowerelectric.blogspot.com/p/h2e-is-harsh-to-extreme-solution.html > > Bruce Fiero-RMI > > > > *Willpower Electric LLC* > > 4115 S Pacific Hwy > > Medford, OR 97501-9103 > *Phone:*541-535-3965 > > *Fax:*541-512-0061 > > *Email:*bruce at willpowerelect.com > > *Web:*www.willpower-electric.com > > Oregon Electrical Contractor C681 > > CCB 191852 > > DUNS 191470363 > NABCEP Certified PV > > Trade Ally of Energy Trust of Oregon > Oregon Solar Tax Credit Certified Technician > > *"I'd put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of > power! I hope we don't have to wait until oil and coal run out > before we tackle that." T. Edison, 1931* > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Extreme snow load ground mount? > From: "frenergy" > > Date: Fri, January 16, 2015 9:17 pm > To: "RE-wrenches" > > >  > > Lars, > > Yes, the only way you can even consider an install like > this is a pole mount, with a steep tilt in the winter to shed > most of the snow. It would help to know if the place will be > used in the winter or summer and how big of an array in KW or > Sq Ft. Customer would have to understand that you cannot > guarantee it...there are some combinations of > wind-snow-temp-moisture that make snow cling to anything. If > this is permitted, start dropping off cookies to an engineer. > > Bill > > Where the Sierra meets the Cascades > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:*Lars Ortegren > > *To:*RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > *Sent:*Thursday, January 15, 2015 11:30 AM > > *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Extreme snow load ground mount? > > Wrenches, > > I have a fun one for you. We have a couple of potential > clients who live in the high Sierra with a 420 LB design > snow load. After hunting around, not even a three rail > system comes close with any module I can find, so now I'm > looking for a pole top that will dump the snow, and still > handle 120 mph winds. Any ideas? I would just say sorry, > no solar for you,but like many of you I love a challenge. > > -- > > */Lars Örtegren/ President/* > > California Solar Electric Company > > > PO Box 480/149 E.Main St > Grass Valley, CA 95945 > Phone : (530)274-3671 Fax: (530)274-7518 > */California C-10 Electrical Contractor #779624/* > > ATTENTION* > *This E-mail may contain CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended > only for the use of the Individual(s) named above. If you > are not the intended recipient of this E-mail, or the > employee or agent responsible for delivering it to the > intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any > dissemination or copying this E-mail is strictly > prohibited. If you have received this E-mail in error, > please immediately notify us by telephone > at_ (530)274-3671_ or E-mail l > ars at cal-solar.com > orcontact at cal-solar.com > . > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [The entire original message is not included.] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob-o at electronconnection.com Tue Apr 28 16:03:29 2015 From: bob-o at electronconnection.com (Bob-O Schultze) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 13:03:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Apprentice interview In-Reply-To: References: <55303C87.9080401@solarray.com> <007701d0789c$e5a65960$b0f30c20$@com> <553172A5.2080308@solarray.com> Message-ID: <2FF9D644-6F53-4CE9-A472-ABD856017B55@electronconnection.com> An apprenticeship is the original 4 year degree. If the trainers are good, high quality workpersons, and the apprentice WANTS to learn, the apprentice will learn the trade. It's exactly the same in a college situation except that the newly minted journeyman, unlike a college graduate, will actually HAVE a trade and experience. On Apr 17, 2015, at 5:41 PM, Chris Mason wrote: The US currently puts little value on craft versus academia, now everyone smart is expected to go to college. Consequently there is a stigma on vocational education. When I did my electrical apprenticeship in Ireland, we did two years of college, one year of training school and one year in the field. There were 8, 000 applicants for a handful of positions. I had a third year electrical apprentice from the US work for me on a three month project we took on. He was absolutely unqualified and could not answer the most basic questions on electrical theory. I recommend you detail the educational opportunities and fund adequate training enabling the apprentice to acheive the target qualification. On Apr 17, 2015 4:53 PM, "Ray Walters" wrote: Hi All; Thanks for the replies so far; I apologize for my misunderstood attempt at humor in my initial post. I agree with Chris here, I hire contract labor all the time, but an apprenticeship is different. Laborers top out pretty quickly and just aren't capable of learning the nuances of off grid electric design. Much of the time that's all that's needed: pick this up and take it over there,dig here, etc. I'm not looking for labor, as much as someone who could some day take over the business ( I'm 50 now) and go out and troubleshoot systems on their own. I consider off grid solar to be more of a craft than mere construction contracting. An apprenticeship implies a much longer term arrangement where they may be paid less, but can expect training to the point of getting their electrical license and making a career out of it. I'm having a much harder time finding the sort of person that wants to make that sort of commitment both in time and in learning. Folks that have the smarts and ambition necessary are already busy. Thanks, R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 4/17/2015 6:22 AM, Chris Mason wrote: > I'm not sure how the term is used in America, but generally "apprentice" does not mean cheap labour. An apprentice program should be an education path to a qualification with state recognized standards, such as Electrician or Plumber. if you just want inexpensive labour, that's not an apprentice, that's a helper, labourer, intern. As someone who started life as an electrical apprentice, I object to seeing apprenticeships shortchanging the applicants. > > On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 7:27 PM, Dana wrote: > I interview & definitely check references including: look at a tape measure and tell me what those little marks are between 0 & 1”, & I look in their truck or car. > > If it’s clean they may take care of your vehicle then same and if it’s a mess that’s what you can expect them to do to your truck. > > Are they smokers? Is that OK in your truck? > > Can they work without checking their cell phone every time it goes Ding or rings? > > Do they have their own tools and do they know how to operate tools like your hydraulic draw punch or wire tugger without F%$ing it up or hurting themselves? > > > Does anyone do a background check on new hires? > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel > > Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 > > E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com > > O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 > > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters > Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2015 4:50 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Apprentice > > > Hi Folks; > > I am considering hiring an apprentice, and I wanted to know if any else has tried this, and what advice and experience everyone had to offer. > Also what would be the best way to advertise: Craig's List? > > Wanted passionate techy soul to share warm fires and cold brews with, watch beautiful sunsets over off grid arrays in remote locations, sometimes carry leaky hazardous materials..... > mmmm. Obviously I need some help. > > Thanks in Advance, > > -- > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > -- > Chris Mason > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Design Engineer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > www.cometsolar.com > 264.235.5670 > 869.662.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Apr 28 16:50:11 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (william at millersolar.com) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 13:50:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attaching to roof sheeting Message-ID: <0d9701d081f4$ebb11a00$c3134e00$@millersolar.com> Friends: I'd like to bring up the subject of fastening roof mounts directly to roof sheeting. We have occasionally a need to do a roof mount on tile or comp roofs where we cannot guarantee finding rafters in a useable locations. We researched this in 2013. We discovered the DPW EZ feet product. When we researched further, the manufacturer of the screws being used told us that the screw had not been tested with standard roof sheeting materials. The need has occurred again and we want to renew our search for options. Are there any direct-to-sheeting attachment options that have been certified for suitability in North America? Thanks in advance. William Miller Gradient Cap_mini Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Tue Apr 28 19:45:19 2015 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 19:45:19 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attaching to roof sheeting In-Reply-To: <0d9701d081f4$ebb11a00$c3134e00$@millersolar.com> References: <0d9701d081f4$ebb11a00$c3134e00$@millersolar.com> Message-ID: <20150428234530.9BDFE1013A@che.dreamhost.com> I have seen a lot of installs using the Zilla Phantom mount. Can't speak to its adherence to standards however, as your mileage may vary. Sincerely, Glenn Burt Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. -----Original Message----- From: "william at millersolar.com" Sent: ‎4/‎28/‎2015 16:50 To: "RE-wrenches " Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attaching to roof sheeting Friends: I'd like to bring up the subject of fastening roof mounts directly to roof sheeting. We have occasionally a need to do a roof mount on tile or comp roofs where we cannot guarantee finding rafters in a useable locations. We researched this in 2013. We discovered the DPW EZ feet product. When we researched further, the manufacturer of the screws being used told us that the screw had not been tested with standard roof sheeting materials. The need has occurred again and we want to renew our search for options. Are there any direct-to-sheeting attachment options that have been certified for suitability in North America? Thanks in advance. William Miller Gradient Cap_mini Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Apr 28 19:46:14 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 13:46:14 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attaching to roof sheeting In-Reply-To: <0d9701d081f4$ebb11a00$c3134e00$@millersolar.com> References: <0d9701d081f4$ebb11a00$c3134e00$@millersolar.com> Message-ID: As a policy we will not fasten to sheeting alone as some may be less then 1/2" thick. In the event that we do need to locate a mount where there is not material we have installed blocking either from below or above. Tile is the easest to add blocking if needed, comp is more involved. Jerry On Apr 28, 2015 11:14 AM, wrote: > Friends: > > > > I’d like to bring up the subject of fastening roof mounts directly to roof > sheeting. We have occasionally a need to do a roof mount on tile or comp > roofs where we cannot guarantee finding rafters in a useable locations. We > researched this in 2013. > > > > We discovered the DPW EZ feet product. When we researched further, the > manufacturer of the screws being used told us that the screw had not been > tested with standard roof sheeting materials. The need has occurred again > and we want to renew our search for options. > > > > Are there any direct-to-sheeting attachment options that have been > certified for suitability in North America? > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William Miller > > > > > > [image: Gradient Cap_mini] > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Apr 28 20:45:39 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 18:45:39 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Apprentice interview In-Reply-To: <2FF9D644-6F53-4CE9-A472-ABD856017B55@electronconnection.com> References: <55303C87.9080401@solarray.com> <007701d0789c$e5a65960$b0f30c20$@com> <553172A5.2080308@solarray.com> <2FF9D644-6F53-4CE9-A472-ABD856017B55@electronconnection.com> Message-ID: <554029B3.6050002@solarray.com> Hi Bob; That's an excellent point. I'm trying to figure out what is a fair=20 arrangement: 4 years of training is worth quite a sum of money vs. 4=20 years of labor in the off grid mines. Straight up $10/ hr and I'll train them for as long as they can be=20 trained with raises as they reach milestones like: they can go on a=20 troubleshooting visit on their own. I think some off grid living experience is a prerequisite as mentioned=20 before, also they've got to be able to deal with basic math and=20 electrical equations. Any other prerequisites before I create an unobtainable person? R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 4/28/2015 2:03 PM, Bob-O Schultze wrote: > An apprenticeship is the original 4 year degree. If the trainers are=20 > good, high quality workpersons, and the apprentice WANTS to learn, the=20 > apprentice will learn the trade. It's exactly the same in a college=20 > situation except that the newly minted journeyman, unlike a college=20 > graduate, will actually HAVE a trade and experience. > > On Apr 17, 2015, at 5:41 PM, Chris Mason wrote: > > The US currently puts little value on craft versus academia, now=20 > everyone smart is expected to go to college. Consequently there is a=20 > stigma on vocational education. When I did my electrical=20 > apprenticeship in Ireland, we did two years of college, one year of=20 > training school and one year in the field. There were 8, 000=20 > applicants for a handful of positions. > I had a third year electrical apprentice from the US work for me on a=20 > three month project we took on. He was absolutely unqualified and=20 > could not answer the most basic questions on electrical theory. > I recommend you detail the educational opportunities and fund adequate=20 > training enabling the apprentice to acheive the target qualification. > > On Apr 17, 2015 4:53 PM, "Ray Walters" > wrote: > > Hi All; > > Thanks for the replies so far; I apologize for my misunderstood > attempt at humor in my initial post. I agree with Chris here, I > hire contract labor all the time, but an apprenticeship is > different. Laborers top out pretty quickly and just aren't > capable of learning the nuances of off grid electric design. Much > of the time that's all that's needed: pick this up and take it > over there,dig here, etc. I'm not looking for labor, as much as > someone who could some day take over the business ( I'm 50 now) > and go out and troubleshoot systems on their own. I consider off > grid solar to be more of a craft than mere construction contracting. > An apprenticeship implies a much longer term arrangement where > they may be paid less, but can expect training to the point of > getting their electrical license and making a career out of it.=20 > I'm having a much harder time finding the sort of person that > wants to make that sort of commitment both in time and in > learning. Folks that have the smarts and ambition necessary are > already busy. > > Thanks, > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > On 4/17/2015 6:22 AM, Chris Mason wrote: >> I'm not sure how the term is used in America, but generally >> "apprentice" does not mean cheap labour. An apprentice program >> should be an education path to a qualification with state >> recognized standards, such as Electrician or Plumber. if you just >> want inexpensive labour, that's not an apprentice, that's a >> helper, labourer, intern. As someone who started life as an >> electrical apprentice, I object to seeing apprenticeships >> shortchanging the applicants. >> >> On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 7:27 PM, Dana > > wrote: >> >> I interview & definitely check references including: look at >> a tape measure and tell me what those little marks are >> between 0 & 1=E2=80=9D, & I look in their truck or car. >> >> If it=E2=80=99s clean they may take care of your vehicle then sa= me >> and if it=E2=80=99s a mess that=E2=80=99s what you can expect th= em to do to >> your truck. >> >> Are they smokers? Is that OK in your truck? >> >> Can they work without checking their cell phone every time it >> goes Ding or rings? >> >> Do they have their own tools and do they know how to operate >> tools like your hydraulic draw punch or wire tugger without >> F%$ing it up or hurting themselves? >> >> >> Does anyone do a background check on new hires? >> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------= ------------ >> >> Dana Orzel >> >> Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 >> >> E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - >> solarwork.com >> >> O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 >> >> >> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >> >> *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> >> >> *From:*RE-wrenches >> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >> ] *On >> Behalf Of *Ray Walters >> *Sent:* Thursday, April 16, 2015 4:50 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Apprentice >> >> >> Hi Folks; >> >> I am considering hiring an apprentice, and I wanted to know >> if any else has tried this, and what advice and experience >> everyone had to offer. >> Also what would be the best way to advertise: Craig's List? / >> >> Wanted passionate techy soul to share warm fires and cold >> brews with, watch beautiful sunsets over off grid arrays in >> remote locations, sometimes carry leaky hazardous materials/..... >> mmmm. Obviously I need some help. >> >> Thanks in Advance, >> >> --=20 >> >> R.Ray Walters >> >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> >> Licensed Master Electrician >> >> Solar Design Engineer >> >> 303 505-8760 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches= .org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ma= illist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> >> --=20 >> Chris Mason >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer=E2=84=A2 >> Solar Design Engineer >> Generac Generators Industrial technician >> >> www.cometsolar.com >> 264.235.5670 >> 869.662.5670 >> Skype: netconcepts >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrench= es.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillis= t.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org=20 > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive:=20 > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht= ml > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Tue Apr 28 21:35:45 2015 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 19:35:45 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Apprentice interview In-Reply-To: <554029B3.6050002@solarray.com> References: <55303C87.9080401@solarray.com> <007701d0789c$e5a65960$b0f30c20$@com> <553172A5.2080308@solarray.com> <2FF9D644-6F53-4CE9-A472-ABD856017B55@electronconnection.com> <554029B3.6050002@solarray.com> Message-ID: Esteemed Wrenches: I teach hands-on *Intro to PV* and* Intro to Solar Therma*l at a 2-year technical college in Denver. Some of my students are on track to be field installers or designers (and will take more advanced classes next term), while others are focusing more on green building, LEED, sustainability etc. *To pass my classes, at the end of the term they need to:* - Be familiar with the basic terminology of each technology - Know how to read a system diagram and understand how the system works - Look at a real system in the field and draw a system diagram of it, and know the function of each component - Know how to correctly use basic instruments (multimeter, solar pathfinder etc) to take measurements - Know how to safely enable and disable a system to safely troubleshoot problems - Be able to look up and understand manufacturer's specifications and installation manuals online (example - torque specs) - Know all safety and PPE requirements for any field task - Have basic knowledge of safe and effective use of basic installation tools - Assemble their own basic tool kit so they are prepared for their first internship/apprenticeship etc - Be able to safely perform a simple task on their first job, for example "Test and record the Voc and Isc of each PV module in this array, each string and the whole array." or "Test, record, and maintain each battery in this bank" and (*hopefully*) "The system isn't charging the battery bank/ pumps are not circulating the HTF -- see if you can find out what's wrong." I am trying my best to educate, but it always depends on the student's dedication, goals and dreams. And if one of my students ever uses me as a reference to you, I promise you an honest assessment. And if they can't do these things in an advanced class next term, I'll certainly hear about it from the other professors! Dan Fink Buckville Energy IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 6:45 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > Hi Bob; > > That's an excellent point. I'm trying to figure out what is a fair > arrangement: 4 years of training is worth quite a sum of money vs. 4 years > of labor in the off grid mines. > Straight up $10/ hr and I'll train them for as long as they can be trained > with raises as they reach milestones like: they can go on a troubleshooting > visit on their own. > I think some off grid living experience is a prerequisite as mentioned > before, also they've got to be able to deal with basic math and electrical > equations. > Any other prerequisites before I create an unobtainable person? > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 > > On 4/28/2015 2:03 PM, Bob-O Schultze wrote: > > An apprenticeship is the original 4 year degree. If the trainers are good, > high quality workpersons, and the apprentice WANTS to learn, the apprentice > will learn the trade. It's exactly the same in a college situation except > that the newly minted journeyman, unlike a college graduate, will actually > HAVE a trade and experience. > > On Apr 17, 2015, at 5:41 PM, Chris Mason wrote: > > The US currently puts little value on craft versus academia, now everyone > smart is expected to go to college. Consequently there is a stigma on > vocational education. When I did my electrical apprenticeship in Ireland, > we did two years of college, one year of training school and one year in > the field. There were 8, 000 applicants for a handful of positions. > I had a third year electrical apprentice from the US work for me on a > three month project we took on. He was absolutely unqualified and could not > answer the most basic questions on electrical theory. > I recommend you detail the educational opportunities and fund adequate > training enabling the apprentice to acheive the target qualification. > On Apr 17, 2015 4:53 PM, "Ray Walters" wrote: > >> Hi All; >> >> Thanks for the replies so far; I apologize for my misunderstood attempt >> at humor in my initial post. I agree with Chris here, I hire contract >> labor all the time, but an apprenticeship is different. Laborers top out >> pretty quickly and just aren't capable of learning the nuances of off grid >> electric design. Much of the time that's all that's needed: pick this up >> and take it over there,dig here, etc. I'm not looking for labor, as much >> as someone who could some day take over the business ( I'm 50 now) and go >> out and troubleshoot systems on their own. I consider off grid solar to be >> more of a craft than mere construction contracting. >> An apprenticeship implies a much longer term arrangement where they may >> be paid less, but can expect training to the point of getting their >> electrical license and making a career out of it. I'm having a much harder >> time finding the sort of person that wants to make that sort of commitment >> both in time and in learning. Folks that have the smarts and ambition >> necessary are already busy. >> >> Thanks, >> >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 >> >> On 4/17/2015 6:22 AM, Chris Mason wrote: >> >> I'm not sure how the term is used in America, but generally "apprentice" >> does not mean cheap labour. An apprentice program should be an education >> path to a qualification with state recognized standards, such as >> Electrician or Plumber. if you just want inexpensive labour, that's not an >> apprentice, that's a helper, labourer, intern. As someone who started life >> as an electrical apprentice, I object to seeing apprenticeships >> shortchanging the applicants. >> >> On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 7:27 PM, Dana wrote: >> >>> I interview & definitely check references including: look at a tape >>> measure and tell me what those little marks are between 0 & 1”, & I look in >>> their truck or car. >>> >>> If it’s clean they may take care of your vehicle then same and if it’s a >>> mess that’s what you can expect them to do to your truck. >>> >>> Are they smokers? Is that OK in your truck? >>> >>> Can they work without checking their cell phone every time it goes Ding >>> or rings? >>> >>> Do they have their own tools and do they know how to operate tools like >>> your hydraulic draw punch or wire tugger without F%$ing it up or hurting >>> themselves? >>> >>> >>> Does anyone do a background check on new hires? >>> >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Dana Orzel >>> >>> Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 >>> >>> E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com >>> >>> O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 >>> >>> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >>> >>> *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >>> Behalf Of *Ray Walters >>> *Sent:* Thursday, April 16, 2015 4:50 PM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Apprentice >>> >>> >>> Hi Folks; >>> >>> I am considering hiring an apprentice, and I wanted to know if any else >>> has tried this, and what advice and experience everyone had to offer. >>> Also what would be the best way to advertise: Craig's List? >>> >>> * Wanted passionate techy soul to share warm fires and cold brews with, >>> watch beautiful sunsets over off grid arrays in remote locations, sometimes >>> carry leaky hazardous materials*..... >>> mmmm. Obviously I need some help. >>> >>> Thanks in Advance, >>> >>> -- >>> >>> R.Ray Walters >>> >>> CTO, Solarray, Inc >>> >>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >>> >>> Licensed Master Electrician >>> >>> Solar Design Engineer >>> >>> 303 505-8760 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Chris Mason >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >> Solar Design Engineer >> Generac Generators Industrial technician >> >> www.cometsolar.com >> 264.235.5670 >> 869.662.5670 >> Skype: netconcepts >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Apr 28 18:34:39 2015 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 18:34:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Water level testing In-Reply-To: <553C318B.8030902@solarray.com> References: <89491615-42B1-4123-B0DB-0ED8F0AC9D74@mac.com> <553BFAD1.90002@sindelarsolar.com> <553C318B.8030902@solarray.com> Message-ID: <20150428223451.26486480A1@homiemail-a45.g.dreamhost.com> I was wondering if anyone had a source for 24 or 48 VDC "depth gauges" that could be used in a cistern or shallow well. A SCUBA depth gauge on the wrist is fairly accurate. It would seem like a signal could be sent electronically though a wire and be read outside the tank. I've never heard of one, however. Does such a device exist? Thanks, Drake At 08:30 PM 4/25/2015, you wrote: >I agree with Windy and this article, the electric sounders can be >finicky. I've never tried the airline method, but some well folks >from Texas taught me to use an inverted plumbing fitting on a >string. When it hits the water you can feel it on the line, >because the small pocket of trapped air causes the weight to stall >momentarily. You can confirm by repeatedly raising it and >"popping" it at the water surface. If its quiet, you can hear it >too. The bottom of the well can be sounded just like with any >weighted line: raise and lower repeatedly, finding the spot that the >line goes slack. I've used this as deep as 800 ft. >For shallower wells we just attach this fitting straight to our 300 >ft measuring tape; if it's deeper, we tape the string to mark the >water level and Total depth, then measure the string after. > >R.Ray Walters >CTO, Solarray, Inc >Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >Licensed Master Electrician >Solar Design Engineer >303 505-8760On 4/25/2015 2:36 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: >>For those Wrenches that work with deep-well water pumping >>installations, the attached guide is useful to file away for later >>use. Windy sent it to me, and it has three options for determining >>the depth of water in a well. >>I taped a 1/4" plastic irrigation tube to the >>hand-installation-method bundle of flexible pipe, wire, signal wire >>and safety rope in an installation yesterday. Easy rough-in for >>testing water table drop and pump submergence over years. >> >>The guide was published in 2000 by the Oregon State University >>Extension Service. >>Allan >> >>Allan Sindelar >>allan at sindelarsolar.com >>NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional >>New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >>Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >>505 780-2738 cell >> >> >>-------- Forwarded Message -------- >>Subject: air tube for water level testing >>Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 19:07:37 -0600 >>From: Windy Dankoff >>To: Allan Sindelar >> >> >>Following is a very cheap means of testing depth to water, pump >>running or not. >> >>Allan - Get 230 feet of 1/4" irrigation tube to put down the well. >>It will be used to make pressure test at any time, using a bicycle pump. >> >>Instructions attached. This will be for use of the "Air Line" >>method shown on this doc. Tape the tubing to the pipe, along with >>the level probe >>cable. The bottom of tube can be where the probe is - just above >>the check valve. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >>List Address: >>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >>Change listserver email address & settings: >>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >>List-Archive: >>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >>List rules & etiquette: >>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >>Check out or update participant bios: >>www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Tue Apr 28 20:52:34 2015 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 20:52:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Apprentice interview In-Reply-To: <554029B3.6050002@solarray.com> References: <55303C87.9080401@solarray.com> <007701d0789c$e5a65960$b0f30c20$@com> <553172A5.2080308@solarray.com> <2FF9D644-6F53-4CE9-A472-ABD856017B55@electronconnection.com> <554029B3.6050002@solarray.com> Message-ID: I think you should describe the job as a trainee. You can do anything you want after that. Just don't call it an apprenticeship. On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 8:45 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > Hi Bob; > > That's an excellent point. I'm trying to figure out what is a fair > arrangement: 4 years of training is worth quite a sum of money vs. 4 years > of labor in the off grid mines. > Straight up $10/ hr and I'll train them for as long as they can be trained > with raises as they reach milestones like: they can go on a troubleshooting > visit on their own. > I think some off grid living experience is a prerequisite as mentioned > before, also they've got to be able to deal with basic math and electrical > equations. > Any other prerequisites before I create an unobtainable person? > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 > > On 4/28/2015 2:03 PM, Bob-O Schultze wrote: > > An apprenticeship is the original 4 year degree. If the trainers are good, > high quality workpersons, and the apprentice WANTS to learn, the apprentice > will learn the trade. It's exactly the same in a college situation except > that the newly minted journeyman, unlike a college graduate, will actually > HAVE a trade and experience. > > On Apr 17, 2015, at 5:41 PM, Chris Mason wrote: > > The US currently puts little value on craft versus academia, now everyone > smart is expected to go to college. Consequently there is a stigma on > vocational education. When I did my electrical apprenticeship in Ireland, > we did two years of college, one year of training school and one year in > the field. There were 8, 000 applicants for a handful of positions. > I had a third year electrical apprentice from the US work for me on a > three month project we took on. He was absolutely unqualified and could not > answer the most basic questions on electrical theory. > I recommend you detail the educational opportunities and fund adequate > training enabling the apprentice to acheive the target qualification. > On Apr 17, 2015 4:53 PM, "Ray Walters" wrote: > >> Hi All; >> >> Thanks for the replies so far; I apologize for my misunderstood attempt >> at humor in my initial post. I agree with Chris here, I hire contract >> labor all the time, but an apprenticeship is different. Laborers top out >> pretty quickly and just aren't capable of learning the nuances of off grid >> electric design. Much of the time that's all that's needed: pick this up >> and take it over there,dig here, etc. I'm not looking for labor, as much >> as someone who could some day take over the business ( I'm 50 now) and go >> out and troubleshoot systems on their own. I consider off grid solar to be >> more of a craft than mere construction contracting. >> An apprenticeship implies a much longer term arrangement where they may >> be paid less, but can expect training to the point of getting their >> electrical license and making a career out of it. I'm having a much harder >> time finding the sort of person that wants to make that sort of commitment >> both in time and in learning. Folks that have the smarts and ambition >> necessary are already busy. >> >> Thanks, >> >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 >> >> On 4/17/2015 6:22 AM, Chris Mason wrote: >> >> I'm not sure how the term is used in America, but generally "apprentice" >> does not mean cheap labour. An apprentice program should be an education >> path to a qualification with state recognized standards, such as >> Electrician or Plumber. if you just want inexpensive labour, that's not an >> apprentice, that's a helper, labourer, intern. As someone who started life >> as an electrical apprentice, I object to seeing apprenticeships >> shortchanging the applicants. >> >> On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 7:27 PM, Dana wrote: >> >>> I interview & definitely check references including: look at a tape >>> measure and tell me what those little marks are between 0 & 1”, & I look in >>> their truck or car. >>> >>> If it’s clean they may take care of your vehicle then same and if it’s a >>> mess that’s what you can expect them to do to your truck. >>> >>> Are they smokers? Is that OK in your truck? >>> >>> Can they work without checking their cell phone every time it goes Ding >>> or rings? >>> >>> Do they have their own tools and do they know how to operate tools like >>> your hydraulic draw punch or wire tugger without F%$ing it up or hurting >>> themselves? >>> >>> >>> Does anyone do a background check on new hires? >>> >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Dana Orzel >>> >>> Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 >>> >>> E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com >>> >>> O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 >>> >>> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >>> >>> *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >>> Behalf Of *Ray Walters >>> *Sent:* Thursday, April 16, 2015 4:50 PM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Apprentice >>> >>> >>> Hi Folks; >>> >>> I am considering hiring an apprentice, and I wanted to know if any else >>> has tried this, and what advice and experience everyone had to offer. >>> Also what would be the best way to advertise: Craig's List? >>> >>> * Wanted passionate techy soul to share warm fires and cold brews with, >>> watch beautiful sunsets over off grid arrays in remote locations, sometimes >>> carry leaky hazardous materials*..... >>> mmmm. Obviously I need some help. >>> >>> Thanks in Advance, >>> >>> -- >>> >>> R.Ray Walters >>> >>> CTO, Solarray, Inc >>> >>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >>> >>> Licensed Master Electrician >>> >>> Solar Design Engineer >>> >>> 303 505-8760 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Chris Mason >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >> Solar Design Engineer >> Generac Generators Industrial technician >> >> www.cometsolar.com >> 264.235.5670 >> 869.662.5670 >> Skype: netconcepts >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From boB at midnitesolar.com Tue Apr 28 22:01:55 2015 From: boB at midnitesolar.com (boB at midnitesolar.com) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 19:01:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Apprentice interview In-Reply-To: References: <55303C87.9080401@solarray.com> <007701d0789c$e5a65960$b0f30c20$@com> <553172A5.2080308@solarray.com> <2FF9D644-6F53-4CE9-A472-ABD856017B55@electronconnection.com> <554029B3.6050002@solarray.com> Message-ID: <55403B93.8060200@midnitesolar.com> May I please add.... 1) Must know the difference between AC and DC. 2) Must be able to identify what each prong is when shown an AC plug. boB On 4/28/2015 6:35 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > Esteemed Wrenches: > > I teach hands-on /Intro to PV/ and/Intro to Solar Therma/l at a 2-year=20 > technical college in Denver. Some of my students are on track to be=20 > field installers or designers (and will take more advanced classes=20 > next term), while others are focusing more on green building, LEED,=20 > sustainability etc. > > *To pass my classes, at the end of the term they need to:* > > * Be familiar with the basic terminology of each technology > * Know how to read a system diagram and understand how the system works > * Look at a real system in the field and draw a system diagram of > it, and know the function of each component > * Know how to correctly use basic instruments (multimeter, solar > pathfinder etc) to take measurements > * Know how to safely enable and disable a system to safely > troubleshoot problems > * Be able to look up and understand manufacturer's specifications > and installation manuals online (example - torque specs) > * Know all safety and PPE requirements for any field task > * Have basic knowledge of safe and effective use of basic > installation tools > * Assemble their own basic tool kit so they are prepared for their > first internship/apprenticeship etc > * Be able to safely perform a simple task on their first job, for > example "Test and record the Voc and Isc of each PV module in this > array, each string and the whole array." or "Test, record, and > maintain each battery in this bank" and (*hopefully*) "The system > isn't charging the battery bank/ pumps are not circulating the HTF > -- see if you can find out what's wrong." > > I am trying my best to educate, but it always depends on the student's=20 > dedication, goals and dreams. And if one of my students ever uses me=20 > as a reference to you, I promise you an honest assessment. And if they=20 > can't do these things in an advanced class next term, I'll certainly=20 > hear about it from the other professors! > > > > > Dan Fink > Buckville Energy > IREC Certified Instructor=E2=84=A2 for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers=E2=84=A2 > 970.672.4342 > > > On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 6:45 PM, Ray Walters > wrote: > > Hi Bob; > > That's an excellent point. I'm trying to figure out what is a fair > arrangement: 4 years of training is worth quite a sum of money > vs. 4 years of labor in the off grid mines. > Straight up $10/ hr and I'll train them for as long as they can be > trained with raises as they reach milestones like: they can go on > a troubleshooting visit on their own. > I think some off grid living experience is a prerequisite as > mentioned before, also they've got to be able to deal with basic > math and electrical equations. > Any other prerequisites before I create an unobtainable person? > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > On 4/28/2015 2:03 PM, Bob-O Schultze wrote: >> An apprenticeship is the original 4 year degree. If the trainers >> are good, high quality workpersons, and the apprentice WANTS to >> learn, the apprentice will learn the trade. It's exactly the same >> in a college situation except that the newly minted journeyman, >> unlike a college graduate, will actually HAVE a trade and >> experience. >> >> On Apr 17, 2015, at 5:41 PM, Chris Mason wrote: >> >> The US currently puts little value on craft versus academia, now >> everyone smart is expected to go to college. Consequently there >> is a stigma on vocational education. When I did my electrical >> apprenticeship in Ireland, we did two years of college, one year >> of training school and one year in the field. There were 8, 000 >> applicants for a handful of positions. >> I had a third year electrical apprentice from the US work for me >> on a three month project we took on. He was absolutely >> unqualified and could not answer the most basic questions on >> electrical theory. >> I recommend you detail the educational opportunities and fund >> adequate training enabling the apprentice to acheive the target >> qualification. >> >> On Apr 17, 2015 4:53 PM, "Ray Walters" > > wrote: >> >> Hi All; >> >> Thanks for the replies so far; I apologize for my >> misunderstood attempt at humor in my initial post. I agree >> with Chris here, I hire contract labor all the time, but an >> apprenticeship is different. Laborers top out pretty quickly >> and just aren't capable of learning the nuances of off grid >> electric design. Much of the time that's all that's needed: >> pick this up and take it over there,dig here, etc. I'm not >> looking for labor, as much as someone who could some day take >> over the business ( I'm 50 now) and go out and troubleshoot >> systems on their own. I consider off grid solar to be more >> of a craft than mere construction contracting. >> An apprenticeship implies a much longer term arrangement >> where they may be paid less, but can expect training to the >> point of getting their electrical license and making a career >> out of it. I'm having a much harder time finding the sort of >> person that wants to make that sort of commitment both in >> time and in learning. Folks that have the smarts and >> ambition necessary are already busy. >> >> Thanks, >> >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 4/17/2015 6:22 AM, Chris Mason wrote: >>> I'm not sure how the term is used in America, but generally >>> "apprentice" does not mean cheap labour. An apprentice >>> program should be an education path to a qualification with >>> state recognized standards, such as Electrician or Plumber. >>> if you just want inexpensive labour, that's not an >>> apprentice, that's a helper, labourer, intern. As someone >>> who started life as an electrical apprentice, I object to >>> seeing apprenticeships shortchanging the applicants. >>> >>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 7:27 PM, Dana >> > wrote: >>> >>> I interview & definitely check references including: >>> look at a tape measure and tell me what those little >>> marks are between 0 & 1=E2=80=9D, & I look in their truck o= r car. >>> >>> If it=E2=80=99s clean they may take care of your vehicle th= en >>> same and if it=E2=80=99s a mess that=E2=80=99s what you can= expect them >>> to do to your truck. >>> >>> Are they smokers? Is that OK in your truck? >>> >>> Can they work without checking their cell phone every >>> time it goes Ding or rings? >>> >>> Do they have their own tools and do they know how to >>> operate tools like your hydraulic draw punch or wire >>> tugger without F%$ing it up or hurting themselves? >>> >>> >>> Does anyone do a background check on new hires? >>> >>> >>> -----------------------------------------------------------= ----------------- >>> >>> Dana Orzel >>> >>> Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 >>> >>> E - dana at solarwork.com - Web >>> - solarwork.com >>> >>> O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 >>> >>> >>> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since >>> 1988" >>> >>> *P*Please consider the environment before printing this >>> email. >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:*RE-wrenches >>> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> ] *On >>> Behalf Of *Ray Walters >>> *Sent:* Thursday, April 16, 2015 4:50 PM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Apprentice >>> >>> >>> Hi Folks; >>> >>> I am considering hiring an apprentice, and I wanted to >>> know if any else has tried this, and what advice and >>> experience everyone had to offer. >>> Also what would be the best way to advertise: Craig's >>> List? / >>> >>> Wanted passionate techy soul to share warm fires and >>> cold brews with, watch beautiful sunsets over off grid >>> arrays in remote locations, sometimes carry leaky >>> hazardous materials/..... >>> mmmm. Obviously I need some help. >>> >>> Thanks in Advance, >>> >>> --=20 >>> >>> R.Ray Walters >>> >>> CTO, Solarray, Inc >>> >>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >>> >>> Licensed Master Electrician >>> >>> Solar Design Engineer >>> >>> 303 505-8760 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wre= nches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> --=20 >>> Chris Mason >>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer=E2=84=A2 >>> Solar Design Engineer >>> Generac Generators Industrial technician >>> >>> www.cometsolar.com >>> 264.235.5670 >>> 869.662.5670 >>> Skype: netconcepts >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Apr 29 00:06:48 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 22:06:48 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Apprentice interview In-Reply-To: References: <55303C87.9080401@solarray.com> <007701d0789c$e5a65960$b0f30c20$@com> <553172A5.2080308@solarray.com> <2FF9D644-6F53-4CE9-A472-ABD856017B55@electronconnection.com> <554029B3.6050002@solarray.com> Message-ID: <554058D8.1020601@solarray.com> I don't understand; are there legal reasons to not call it an apprenticeship? (sounds like indentured servitude....?) When I got started in the biz, I would have loved to been offered an apprenticeship. Instead, I went out in the woods while my family suffered through my well intentioned, but misinformed experiments. After many years I got better, but I still had no one to sign off for my license or NABCEP. The next generation of installer does not need to suffer ( at least as much) R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 4/28/2015 6:52 PM, Chris Mason wrote: > I think you should describe the job as a trainee. You can do anything > you want after that. Just don't call it an apprenticeship. > > On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 8:45 PM, Ray Walters > wrote: > > Hi Bob; > > That's an excellent point. I'm trying to figure out what is a fair > arrangement: 4 years of training is worth quite a sum of money > vs. 4 years of labor in the off grid mines. > Straight up $10/ hr and I'll train them for as long as they can be > trained with raises as they reach milestones like: they can go on > a troubleshooting visit on their own. > I think some off grid living experience is a prerequisite as > mentioned before, also they've got to be able to deal with basic > math and electrical equations. > Any other prerequisites before I create an unobtainable person? > > R > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Richard.L.Ratico at VALLEY.NET Wed Apr 29 04:06:28 2015 From: Richard.L.Ratico at VALLEY.NET (Richard L Ratico) Date: 29 Apr 2015 04:06:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Apprentice interview Message-ID: <178390891@retriever.VALLEY.NET> Ray, In VT and NH, at least, electrical apprenticeships are defined and regulated by the state. Apprentices must be registered and enrolled in approved formal coursework as well as meet specific employment requirements for paid, hands on work in the field. Dick Ratico Solarwind Electric --- You wrote: I don't understand; are there legal reasons to not call it an apprenticeship? (sounds like indentured servitude....?) When I got started in the biz, I would have loved to been offered an apprenticeship. Instead, I went out in the woods while my family suffered through my well intentioned, but misinformed experiments. After many years I got better, but I still had no one to sign off for my license or NABCEP. The next generation of installer does not need to suffer ( at least as much) R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 4/28/2015 6:52 PM, Chris Mason wrote: > I think you should describe the job as a trainee. You can do anything > you want after that. Just don't call it an apprenticeship. > > On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 8:45 PM, Ray Walters > wrote: > > Hi Bob; > > That's an excellent point. I'm trying to figure out what is a fair > arrangement: 4 years of training is worth quite a sum of money > vs. 4 years of labor in the off grid mines. > Straight up $10/ hr and I'll train them for as long as they can be > trained with raises as they reach milestones like: they can go on > a troubleshooting visit on their own. > I think some off grid living experience is a prerequisite as > mentioned before, also they've got to be able to deal with basic > math and electrical equations. > Any other prerequisites before I create an unobtainable person? > > R > --- end of quote --- From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Apr 29 08:13:07 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2015 08:13:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attaching to roof sheeting In-Reply-To: <0d9701d081f4$ebb11a00$c3134e00$@millersolar.com> References: <0d9701d081f4$ebb11a00$c3134e00$@millersolar.com> Message-ID: There are products for connection to sheathing/decking only. It might not answer your question directly, but... Check out the Eco-Fasten Eco-44/65. It was designed for SIP panels and low-slope membrane roofs. We have fastened these to wood and steel decking only. They have 6 or 8 holes for fasteners. If flashed properly, it's a plausible option on composite roofs even through the manufacturer does not market it for that use. There is plenty of data out there for screw pull-out strength in OSB and plywood from fastener manufacturers. Maybe Eco-Fasten can point you to the right fastener type recommended (required?) for their product in a variety of substrates. Another good example is the VersaBracket from S-5!. On a 5V metal roof with vertical trusses there is no way to hit trusses that land under the V crimps, so blocking would be necessary for other methods (like the EcoFasten SimpleSeal). If you can't access the attic, you are out of luck for blocking, so the Versabracket is an option we have used, even in the high velocity hurricane zones in Florida. S-5! even publishes load test data in 1/2" OSB for Versabrackets using the fastener (14 x 1.5" TYPE 17 w/washer 3/8" HWH). The Versabracket-67 has an allowable load normal to the deck of 181 pounds. That usually requires 12"-32" spacing depending on roof zone around here. It's a lot of brackets, but they are pretty cheap. For tile roofs, tile hooks usually allow an easy way to find a truss, but if the trusses go the wrong way, blocking is the only option I am aware of. Comp roofs - I can't imagine why it couldn't be done from an engineering standpoint, but the flashing is the more difficult question in my mind. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 4:50 PM, wrote: > Friends: > > > > I’d like to bring up the subject of fastening roof mounts directly to roof > sheeting. We have occasionally a need to do a roof mount on tile or comp > roofs where we cannot guarantee finding rafters in a useable locations. We > researched this in 2013. > > > > We discovered the DPW EZ feet product. When we researched further, the > manufacturer of the screws being used told us that the screw had not been > tested with standard roof sheeting materials. The need has occurred again > and we want to renew our search for options. > > > > Are there any direct-to-sheeting attachment options that have been > certified for suitability in North America? > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William Miller > > > > > > [image: Gradient Cap_mini] > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Wed Apr 29 14:03:41 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Larry) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2015 11:03:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Copper bar current capacity? Message-ID: <55411CFD.7040303@starlightsolar.com> Hi Wrenches, In building lithium battery systems, I have many components that need to be connected in series from the battery. Sometimes the space is very limited making it difficult to bend 2/0 cables. I would like to use copper flat bar and make parts to replace the cables. Does anyone know how much current I can run through copper bar based on its size? For example, 1" or 3/4" wide by .0625" up to .125" thick. The pieces will only be a few inches long and bolted to solenoids, shunt and terminal posts. -- Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems From august at luminalt.com Wed Apr 29 14:27:41 2015 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2015 11:27:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Copper bar current capacity? In-Reply-To: <55411CFD.7040303@starlightsolar.com> References: <55411CFD.7040303@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <7d284681ce84acbf8cf5f1e911e9b9e2@mail.gmail.com> Larry, There are many resources for this online. A quick search for "copper bar current rating chart" yields results like this: http://www.watteredge.com/pdf/Ampacity_Tables.pdf Best, August -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Larry Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 11:04 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Copper bar current capacity? Hi Wrenches, In building lithium battery systems, I have many components that need to be connected in series from the battery. Sometimes the space is very limited making it difficult to bend 2/0 cables. I would like to use copper flat bar and make parts to replace the cables. Does anyone know how much current I can run through copper bar based on its size? For example, 1" or 3/4" wide by .0625" up to .125" thick. The pieces will only be a few inches long and bolted to solenoids, shunt and terminal posts. -- Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htm l List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From larry at starlightsolar.com Wed Apr 29 15:41:41 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Larry) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2015 12:41:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Copper bar current capacity? In-Reply-To: <7d284681ce84acbf8cf5f1e911e9b9e2@mail.gmail.com> References: <55411CFD.7040303@starlightsolar.com> <7d284681ce84acbf8cf5f1e911e9b9e2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <554133F5.1090904@starlightsolar.com> I did see these AC 60Hz tables like your link. Is it the same for DC current? Seems like I read that there was a difference. Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On 4/29/15 11:27 AM, August Goers wrote: > Larry, > > There are many resources for this online. A quick search for "copper bar > current rating chart" yields results like this: > > http://www.watteredge.com/pdf/Ampacity_Tables.pdf > > Best, > > August > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Larry > Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 11:04 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Copper bar current capacity? > > Hi Wrenches, > > In building lithium battery systems, I have many components that need to > be connected in series from the battery. Sometimes the space is very > limited making it difficult to bend 2/0 cables. I would like to use copper > flat bar and make parts to replace the cables. Does anyone know how much > current I can run through copper bar based on its size? For example, 1" or > 3/4" wide by .0625" up to .125" thick. The pieces will only be a few > inches long and bolted to solenoids, shunt and terminal posts. > > -- > Thank you, > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htm > l > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > From garrison at solarserviceinc.com Wed Apr 29 16:00:11 2015 From: garrison at solarserviceinc.com (Garrison Riegel) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2015 15:00:11 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Copper bar current capacity? In-Reply-To: <554133F5.1090904@starlightsolar.com> References: <55411CFD.7040303@starlightsolar.com> <7d284681ce84acbf8cf5f1e911e9b9e2@mail.gmail.com> <554133F5.1090904@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <00c801d082b7$1a3ebe50$4ebc3af0$@solarserviceinc.com> Hi Larry, It sounds like the Copper Development Association would agree. Take a look at this table on DC copper bus bar ampacities: http://www.copper.org/applications/electrical/busbar/busbar_ampacities.html Best, Garrison Riegel PV Operations Manager | Solar Service Inc [p] 847-677-0950 | garrison at solarserviceinc.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalT -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Larry Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 2:42 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Copper bar current capacity? I did see these AC 60Hz tables like your link. Is it the same for DC current? Seems like I read that there was a difference. Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On 4/29/15 11:27 AM, August Goers wrote: > Larry, > > There are many resources for this online. A quick search for "copper > bar current rating chart" yields results like this: > > http://www.watteredge.com/pdf/Ampacity_Tables.pdf > > Best, > > August > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > On Behalf Of Larry > Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 11:04 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Copper bar current capacity? > > Hi Wrenches, > > In building lithium battery systems, I have many components that need > to be connected in series from the battery. Sometimes the space is > very limited making it difficult to bend 2/0 cables. I would like to > use copper flat bar and make parts to replace the cables. Does anyone > know how much current I can run through copper bar based on its size? > For example, 1" or 3/4" wide by .0625" up to .125" thick. The pieces > will only be a few inches long and bolted to solenoids, shunt and terminal posts. > > -- > Thank you, > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .htm > l > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Wed Apr 29 14:19:00 2015 From: Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com (Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2015 14:19:00 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Copper bar current capacity? In-Reply-To: <55411CFD.7040303@starlightsolar.com> References: <55411CFD.7040303@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Hi: You could relate the cross sectional area of the copper bar to circular mils using, 1 circular mil = 0.166 sq-in Then look up the current carrying capacity for wires of various sizes in circular mils. A copper bar with the same size in circular mils will carry the same current as a wire of that size in circular mils; actually more current as the copper is not insulated and is not round. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Larry To: RE-wrenches , Date: 04/29/2015 11:03 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Copper bar current capacity? Sent by: "RE-wrenches" Hi Wrenches, In building lithium battery systems, I have many components that need to be connected in series from the battery. Sometimes the space is very limited making it difficult to bend 2/0 cables. I would like to use copper flat bar and make parts to replace the cables. Does anyone know how much current I can run through copper bar based on its size? For example, 1" or 3/4" wide by .0625" up to .125" thick. The pieces will only be a few inches long and bolted to solenoids, shunt and terminal posts. -- Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 38319 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 4274 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 1869 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 1897 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From russo.lou at gmail.com Wed Apr 29 17:31:26 2015 From: russo.lou at gmail.com (Lou Russo) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2015 11:31:26 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Geda Solarlift Message-ID: Wrenches, Anybody out there using the GEDA Solarlift (or any other lift for that matter)? If so what is your opinion of it? Setup time seems a little long, but it could easily make up for it in safety and array installation time. Any input is appreciated. Past Wrenches discussions only seem to talk about lifts in general. Aloha, Lou Russo (440) 345 6762 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Wed Apr 29 20:23:14 2015 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2015 18:23:14 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Geda Solarlift In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I made one from the design that was in HomePower a few years back. Actually just in the process of rebuilding the wooden mod holder portion. It still has life left in it but I want to make a couple modifications. It has worked great for the past several years. As simple and cheap as it is, not sure if I'd spend the $ on a manufactured one? Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 > On Apr 29, 2015, at 3:31 PM, Lou Russo wrote: > > Wrenches, > > Anybody out there using the GEDA Solarlift (or any other lift for that matter)? If so what is your opinion of it? Setup time seems a little long, but it could easily make up for it in safety and array installation time. Any input is appreciated. > > Past Wrenches discussions only seem to talk about lifts in general. > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > (440) 345 6762 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Wed Apr 29 22:35:23 2015 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2015 22:35:23 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Geda Solarlift In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'd be interested in seeing that homemade design....or a link to the home power article. We used a conventional lift for a while...it was pretty noisy, smelly, heavy and loud....but I suppose it was safer than most other ways of getting panels to the roof... > > On Wednesday, April 29, 2015, Benn Kilburn > wrote: > >> I made one from the design that was in HomePower a few years back. >> Actually just in the process of rebuilding the wooden mod holder >> portion. It still has life left in it but I want to make a couple >> modifications. >> It has worked great for the past several years. As simple and cheap as it >> is, not sure if I'd spend the $ on a manufactured one? >> >> Benn Kilburn >> SkyFire Energy Inc. >> 780-906-7807 >> >> >> > On Apr 29, 2015, at 3:31 PM, Lou Russo wrote: >> > >> > Wrenches, >> > >> > Anybody out there using the GEDA Solarlift (or any other lift for that >> matter)? If so what is your opinion of it? Setup time seems a little long, >> but it could easily make up for it in safety and array installation time. >> Any input is appreciated. >> > >> > Past Wrenches discussions only seem to talk about lifts in general. >> > >> > Aloha, >> > >> > Lou Russo >> > (440) 345 6762 >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > Adam Katzman - Owner/Operator > Autonomous Energies > 4872 State Route 9G > Germantown NY, 12526 > www.AutonomousEnergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > -- Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies 4872 State Route 9G Germantown NY, 12526 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarworks at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 11:26:16 2015 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal Khalsa) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2015 08:26:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Evergreen 190 Message-ID: Anybody have any Evergreen 190's they would be willing to part with for broken panel replacement? Please contact me off line if so..... Thank you!!! Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-218-0201 m 541-299-0402 o -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Thu Apr 30 11:55:09 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Larry) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2015 08:55:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Apprentice interview In-Reply-To: <55403B93.8060200@midnitesolar.com> References: <55303C87.9080401@solarray.com> <007701d0789c$e5a65960$b0f30c20$@com> <553172A5.2080308@solarray.com> <2FF9D644-6F53-4CE9-A472-ABD856017B55@electronconnection.com> <554029B3.6050002@solarray.com> <55403B93.8060200@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: <5542505D.6050501@starlightsolar.com> Or... know the difference between an amp and an amp-hour or a Watt and a Watt-hour? Or can they explain what is wrong with someone saying "amps per hour"? Can they explain what is wrong with this PV solar install? Ray, I hope you find a student that will appreciate the wisdom of a graybeard. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On 4/28/15 7:01 PM, boB at midnitesolar.com wrote: > > > May I please add.... > > > 1) Must know the difference between AC and DC. > > 2) Must be able to identify what each prong is when shown an AC plug. > > boB > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: aegfcaji. Type: image/png Size: 143548 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Apr 30 12:06:54 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2015 10:06:54 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Apprentice interview In-Reply-To: <5542505D.6050501@starlightsolar.com> References: <55303C87.9080401@solarray.com> <007701d0789c$e5a65960$b0f30c20$@com> <553172A5.2080308@solarray.com> <2FF9D644-6F53-4CE9-A472-ABD856017B55@electronconnection.com> <554029B3.6050002@solarray.com> <55403B93.8060200@midnitesolar.com> <5542505D.6050501@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <00de01d0835f$ad8b6570$08a23050$@com> How about tool competence, & ownership: #1 vs. #2 vs. #3 Phillips and flat blade screw drivers, Square drive sizes, safe operation of wire tuggers, hydraulic punches, porta bands saws, drill press, grinders, etc. I have banned assistants from"borrowing" tools out of my bag as I work, if they have it I cannot have it to use. Basic hand tools they provide & need to arrive with each day or go home. I do not require a tool belt (tool bag or bucket is OK) when working at ground level only on ladders and scaffolding & roofs. I have had too many people in 26 years trash, loose, & generally disrespect my tools to allow this anymore. I had one guy who worked with me for 13 years and I still find his tools under houses and in & on top of equipment boxes years later, great guy & excellent friend, but he lost HIS tools like there was an never ending supply. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Larry Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2015 9:55 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Apprentice interview Or... know the difference between an amp and an amp-hour or a Watt and a Watt-hour? Or can they explain what is wrong with someone saying "amps per hour"? Can they explain what is wrong with this PV solar install? Ray, I hope you find a student that will appreciate the wisdom of a graybeard. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On 4/28/15 7:01 PM, boB at midnitesolar.com wrote: May I please add.... 1) Must know the difference between AC and DC. 2) Must be able to identify what each prong is when shown an AC plug. boB -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 143548 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 14:46:28 2015 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2015 12:46:28 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Apprentice interview In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5CCE266C-DB6E-4CEF-A8E0-5503851DEF2B@gmail.com> Since we're pretty far down the road of throwing out traits that define the mythic ideal employee/apprentice, I'm going to add what I think is one of the most important (and probably most difficult to find) traits, which is the ability to THINK (preferably quickly) on one's feet to solve a problem, as well as willingness/desire to learn new skills and improve the skills one already has. It doesn't seem like it's asking too much to find someone with those abilities, but it sure is rare to come across. -Lukw Luke Christy NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 CoSEIA Certified PV Installer Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO. 81144 SGSRenewables at Gmail.com 719.588.3044 www.sgsrenewables.com From solarworks at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 15:02:37 2015 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal Khalsa) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2015 12:02:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SunEye 210 Message-ID: Friends.... Speaking of items that are no longer available....Anyone have an extra Solmetric Suneye 210 they want to part with...used and in good working condition is fine..... Thanks!!! Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-218-0201 m 541-299-0402 o -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 15:04:49 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2015 09:04:49 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SunEye 210 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Got one, complete with the case how much$$ Jerry On Apr 30, 2015 9:02 AM, "Kirpal Khalsa" wrote: > Friends.... > Speaking of items that are no longer available....Anyone have an extra > Solmetric Suneye 210 they want to part with...used and in good working > condition is fine..... > Thanks!!! > > Sunny Regards, > Kirpal Khalsa > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Oregon Solarworks LLC > www.oregonsolarworks.com > 541-218-0201 m > 541-299-0402 o > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Apr 30 15:06:51 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2015 13:06:51 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Apprentice interview In-Reply-To: <5CCE266C-DB6E-4CEF-A8E0-5503851DEF2B@gmail.com> References: <5CCE266C-DB6E-4CEF-A8E0-5503851DEF2B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55427D4B.7010109@solarray.com> Hi Luke; I would say that the ability to think is the primary attribute I'm looking for, and the difference between an apprentice and a laborer. It is indeed rare. Most folks really just don't soak up much of the knowledge we're trying to pass on, either due to lack of interest or lack of background. They're going to need to put in some study time on their own, reading Solar Pro, Homepower, the RE Wrenches list, the NEC code, product brochures, manuals, PV Design books, and then ask lots of questions when they come back to work. As mentioned before, living off grid is a crash course in this subject; you've got to understand what's going on with the system or you'll soon be sitting in the dark. It creates an innate desire to study up on the subject. I have some very well informed customers that will not suffer talking to fools. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 4/30/2015 12:46 PM, Luke Christy wrote: > Since we're pretty far down the road of throwing out traits that define the mythic ideal employee/apprentice, I'm going to add what I think is one of the most important (and probably most difficult to find) traits, which is the ability to THINK (preferably quickly) on one's feet to solve a problem, as well as willingness/desire to learn new skills and improve the skills one already has. > It doesn't seem like it's asking too much to find someone with those abilities, but it sure is rare to come across. > > -Lukw > > Luke Christy > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professionalâ„¢: Certification #031409-25 > NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installerâ„¢: Certification #ST032611-03 > CoSEIA Certified PV Installer > > Solar Gain Services, LLC > PO Box 531 > Monte Vista, CO. 81144 > SGSRenewables at Gmail.com > 719.588.3044 > www.sgsrenewables.com > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From taiyoko at positiveenergysolar.com Thu Apr 30 15:40:20 2015 From: taiyoko at positiveenergysolar.com (Taiyoko) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2015 13:40:20 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SunEye 210 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <012501d0837d$7f4c6c90$7de545b0$@com> Kirpal, I have not tried this yet, however I plan to. $16 app for droid? http://comovingmagnetics.com/wp/?app=solar-shades Taiyoko (Randy) Sadewic Cell: 505 570-0137 Taiyoko at positiveenergysolar.com http://positiveenergysolar.com/admin/content/uploads/PES-logo-3.jpg From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirpal Khalsa Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2015 1:03 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] SunEye 210 Friends.... Speaking of items that are no longer available....Anyone have an extra Solmetric Suneye 210 they want to part with...used and in good working condition is fine..... Thanks!!! Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-218-0201 m 541-299-0402 o -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6339 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 16:40:52 2015 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2015 13:40:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Apprentice interview In-Reply-To: <55427D4B.7010109@solarray.com> References: <5CCE266C-DB6E-4CEF-A8E0-5503851DEF2B@gmail.com> <55427D4B.7010109@solarray.com> Message-ID: <4FD4784D-F155-4DC1-BEFB-E2C337DA2D1D@gmail.com> Having gone through a traditional five year electrical apprenticeship, almost thirty years ago, and working as a foreman on large industrial projects, I came to know hundreds and hundreds of apprentices. Some were fresh out of high school while others were making a mid-life career change. There are, in my opinion, two types of candidates that are almost guaranteed to make ace mechanics, or as a friend used to say “A journeyman’s dream”. The first is a young person fresh off the ranch. Clean, polite, and not afraid of work. Most likely, his or her parents instilled many of the values and attitudes we are looking for. There’s a good chance they have mechanical skills. The second type of candidate is someone who is already a tradesperson doing craftsmanship level work. At 35, I took a five year break from AE/Electrical work and went through a five year long traditional Japanese carpentry apprenticeship. I landed the gig because my sponsor had seen how I worked, and the level of work I was doing. With very few exceptions, he only hired young men who’s families lived and worked in the woods. I survived (it was a brutal apprenticeship) only because of what I brought from my past trade. Funny, after the 2007 meltdown, that work dried up and I went back into business with one of my “teachers” as my apprentice. He was hands down the best I’ve ever had. Too bad it only lasted a few years. Having said all this, I’ve pretty much winded down my career and business for lack of good help. Two weeks ago, a young client of mine’s wife insisted on helping me wire their new barn. She grabbed two bundles of 1/2” emt, shouldered them, and then squatted to pick up a box of fittings AND the cordless bandsaw. She was awesome. She also grew up on a local ranch. Michael Morningstar On Apr 30, 2015, at 12:06 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > Hi Luke; > > I would say that the ability to think is the primary attribute I'm looking for, and the difference between an apprentice and a laborer. It is indeed rare. Most folks really just don't soak up much of the knowledge we're trying to pass on, either due to lack of interest or lack of background. They're going to need to put in some study time on their own, reading Solar Pro, Homepower, the RE Wrenches list, the NEC code, product brochures, manuals, PV Design books, and then ask lots of questions when they come back to work. > As mentioned before, living off grid is a crash course in this subject; you've got to understand what's going on with the system or you'll soon be sitting in the dark. It creates an innate desire to study up on the subject. I have some very well informed customers that will not suffer talking to fools. > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > On 4/30/2015 12:46 PM, Luke Christy wrote: >> Since we're pretty far down the road of throwing out traits that define the mythic ideal employee/apprentice, I'm going to add what I think is one of the most important (and probably most difficult to find) traits, which is the ability to THINK (preferably quickly) on one's feet to solve a problem, as well as willingness/desire to learn new skills and improve the skills one already has. >> It doesn't seem like it's asking too much to find someone with those abilities, but it sure is rare to come across. >> >> -Lukw >> >> Luke Christy >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 >> NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 >> CoSEIA Certified PV Installer >> >> Solar Gain Services, LLC >> PO Box 531 >> Monte Vista, CO. 81144 >> SGSRenewables at Gmail.com >> 719.588.3044 >> www.sgsrenewables.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Thu Apr 30 16:47:16 2015 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2015 13:47:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Geda Solarlift In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <684994.83429.bm@smtp113.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Apr 30 15:06:41 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2015 15:06:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Apprentice interview In-Reply-To: <5CCE266C-DB6E-4CEF-A8E0-5503851DEF2B@gmail.com> References: <5CCE266C-DB6E-4CEF-A8E0-5503851DEF2B@gmail.com> Message-ID: You're talking to the people who have those rare skills. Unfortunately, we're all working for ourselves, not each other! (let's go ahead and pat ourselves on the back) We've found some success taking people from other disciplines in trade schools. At least they are in "learn mode" and have done something recently to improves themselves. Unfortunately, the other trades are heating up, too (pun intended). It's not easy or cheap to find and keep the best, or to lure them from another trade. If I need a job one day, I'll give you a ring. I love Colorado. :) Jason On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 2:46 PM, Luke Christy wrote: > > Since we're pretty far down the road of throwing out traits that define > the mythic ideal employee/apprentice, I'm going to add what I think is one > of the most important (and probably most difficult to find) traits, which > is the ability to THINK (preferably quickly) on one's feet to solve a > problem, as well as willingness/desire to learn new skills and improve the > skills one already has. > It doesn't seem like it's asking too much to find someone with those > abilities, but it sure is rare to come across. > > -Lukw > > Luke Christy > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 > NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 > CoSEIA Certified PV Installer > > Solar Gain Services, LLC > PO Box 531 > Monte Vista, CO. 81144 > SGSRenewables at Gmail.com > 719.588.3044 > www.sgsrenewables.com > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Apr 30 15:33:55 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2015 13:33:55 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LARGE Underground vault box Message-ID: <011701d0837c$990e02c0$cb2a0840$@com> Hey All you wise ones! I am doing a pathway ice& snow melt project for one of our local geothermal hot springs. I need to set a 48x48x36 vault in the ground in a location where we cannot get even remotely close with a vehicle or concrete truck. It would be a very long a reach for a small & reasonably priced crane. The vault needs to be reasonably water tight on the sides and bottom & the top would or will be hinged I am looking on the web, but if anyone has a wise suggestion on a source for a fiberglass or HDPE box 48x48x36 deep vault. Any suppliers you would suggest would be appreciated. Any brilliant ideas entertained. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Apr 30 17:25:32 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2015 15:25:32 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LARGE Underground vault box In-Reply-To: <011701d0837c$990e02c0$cb2a0840$@com> References: <011701d0837c$990e02c0$cb2a0840$@com> Message-ID: <55429DCC.9010601@solarray.com> oldcastleprecast.com/enclosuresolutions I was just looking at these enclosures for a potential battery enclosure to set in the ground for more stable temperatures. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 4/30/2015 1:33 PM, Dana wrote: > > Hey All you wise ones! > > I am doing a pathway ice& snow melt project for one of our local > geothermal hot springs. > > I need to set a 48x48x36 vault in the ground in a location where we > cannot get even remotely close with a vehicle or concrete truck. It > would be a very long a reach for a small & reasonably priced crane. > The vault needs to be reasonably water tight on the sides and bottom & > the top would or will be hinged > > I am looking on the web, but if anyone has a wise suggestion on a > source for a fiberglass or HDPE box 48x48x36 deep vault. > > Any suppliers you would suggest would be appreciated. Any brilliant > ideas entertained. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel > > Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 > > E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com > > O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 > > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 18:15:11 2015 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2015 16:15:11 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SunEye 210 In-Reply-To: <012501d0837d$7f4c6c90$7de545b0$@com> References: <012501d0837d$7f4c6c90$7de545b0$@com> Message-ID: Esteemed Wrenches; I have tested the SolarShades app against a Solar Pathfinder, and the app is great for a quick assessment. Unfortunately accuracy depends on how you hold your phone and rotate yourself and especially how you tilt it. If you do it exactly right, I found the accuracy to be within 5-10% of the pathfinder. But the app relies on the tilt sensor of the smartphone, so if you move your arms up or down while rotating yourself to keep the crosshairs on target of obstructions as you rotate, it ruins the reading (and you can see it in the generated sunpath diagram)---but after much practice I kind of have the hang of it. If someone could devise an android phone holder bracket that could be used on a tilt/pan tripod, I think the SolarShades app could be very accurate. Also, I believe there is a similar app for Iphone, Solarshades only works on android last time I checked. Dan Fink Buckville Energy IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 1:40 PM, Taiyoko wrote: > Kirpal, > > I have not tried this yet, however I plan to. > > > > $16 app for droid? > http://comovingmagnetics.com/wp/?app=solar-shades > > > > > > Taiyoko (Randy) Sadewic > > Cell: 505 570-0137 > > Taiyoko at positiveenergysolar.com > > > > [image: > http://positiveenergysolar.com/admin/content/uploads/PES-logo-3.jpg] > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Kirpal Khalsa > *Sent:* Thursday, April 30, 2015 1:03 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] SunEye 210 > > > > Friends.... > > Speaking of items that are no longer available....Anyone have an extra > Solmetric Suneye 210 they want to part with...used and in good working > condition is fine..... > > Thanks!!! > > > Sunny Regards, > Kirpal Khalsa > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Oregon Solarworks LLC > www.oregonsolarworks.com > 541-218-0201 m > 541-299-0402 o > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6339 bytes Desc: not available URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 18:31:08 2015 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2015 16:31:08 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SunEye 210 In-Reply-To: References: <012501d0837d$7f4c6c90$7de545b0$@com> Message-ID: Here are two examples of my test SolarShades app results, taken from the same spot on a roof, one on my first try and one after some practice. You will see the obvious difference in the results. Some sort of tripod mount would be the key to making this app useful on a professional level, though I still find it useful for quick assessments. Dan Fink Buckville Energy IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 4:15 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > Esteemed Wrenches, Kirpal; > > I have tested the SolarShades app against a Solar Pathfinder, and the app > is great for a quick assessment. Unfortunately accuracy depends on how you > hold your phone and rotate yourself and especially how you tilt it. If you > do it exactly right, I found the accuracy to be within 5-10% of the > pathfinder. But the app relies on the tilt sensor of the smartphone, so if > you move your arms up or down while rotating yourself to keep the > crosshairs on target of obstructions as you rotate, it ruins the reading > (and you can see it in the generated sunpath diagrams)---but after much > practice I kind of have the hang of it. > > If someone could devise an android phone holder bracket that could be used > on a tilt/pan tripod, I think the SolarShades app could be very accurate. > Also, I believe there is a similar app for Iphone, Solarshades only works > on android last time I checked. > > Dan Fink > Buckville Energy > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > > On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 1:40 PM, Taiyoko > wrote: > >> Kirpal, >> >> I have not tried this yet, however I plan to. >> >> >> >> $16 app for droid? >> http://comovingmagnetics.com/wp/?app=solar-shades >> >> >> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Eagan existing-line.bmp Type: image/bmp Size: 102856 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: egn-line.bmp Type: image/bmp Size: 63790 bytes Desc: not available URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Thu Apr 30 20:20:38 2015 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2015 20:20:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SunEye 210 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000d01d083a4$a814e040$f83ea0c0$@burt@glbcc.com> I bought a 110 on ebay for $1000 and a 210 for $3500 not long after they were discontinued. For comparison purposes only… they both has GPS options. -Glenn From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Shafer Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2015 3:05 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SunEye 210 Got one, complete with the case how much$$ Jerry On Apr 30, 2015 9:02 AM, "Kirpal Khalsa" wrote: Friends.... Speaking of items that are no longer available....Anyone have an extra Solmetric Suneye 210 they want to part with...used and in good working condition is fine..... Thanks!!! Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-218-0201 m 541-299-0402 o _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Thu Apr 30 20:20:38 2015 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2015 20:20:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Geda Solarlift In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001201d083a4$a8d0dd40$fa7297c0$@burt@glbcc.com> http://www.homepower.com/articles/solar-electricity/design-installation/pv-m odule-lift -Glenn From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of AE Solar Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 10:35 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Geda Solarlift I'd be interested in seeing that homemade design....or a link to the home power article. We used a conventional lift for a while...it was pretty noisy, smelly, heavy and loud....but I suppose it was safer than most other ways of getting panels to the roof... On Wednesday, April 29, 2015, Benn Kilburn > wrote: I made one from the design that was in HomePower a few years back. Actually just in the process of rebuilding the wooden mod holder portion. It still has life left in it but I want to make a couple modifications. It has worked great for the past several years. As simple and cheap as it is, not sure if I'd spend the $ on a manufactured one? Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 > On Apr 29, 2015, at 3:31 PM, Lou Russo wrote: > > Wrenches, > > Anybody out there using the GEDA Solarlift (or any other lift for that matter)? If so what is your opinion of it? Setup time seems a little long, but it could easily make up for it in safety and array installation time. Any input is appreciated. > > Past Wrenches discussions only seem to talk about lifts in general. > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > (440) 345 6762 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Adam Katzman - Owner/Operator Autonomous Energies 4872 State Route 9G Germantown NY, 12526 www.AutonomousEnergies.com (518) 567-1468 -- Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies 4872 State Route 9G Germantown NY, 12526 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri May 1 00:23:30 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2015 18:23:30 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LARGE Underground vault box In-Reply-To: <55429DCC.9010601@solarray.com> References: <011701d0837c$990e02c0$cb2a0840$@com> <55429DCC.9010601@solarray.com> Message-ID: Would a concrete pumper and hose do the trick Jerry On Apr 30, 2015 11:25 AM, "Ray Walters" wrote: > oldcastleprecast.com/enclosuresolutions > > I was just looking at these enclosures for a potential battery enclosure > to set in the ground for more stable temperatures. > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 > > On 4/30/2015 1:33 PM, Dana wrote: > > Hey All you wise ones! > > > > I am doing a pathway ice& snow melt project for one of our local > geothermal hot springs. > > I need to set a 48x48x36 vault in the ground in a location where we cannot > get even remotely close with a vehicle or concrete truck. It would be a > very long a reach for a small & reasonably priced crane. The vault needs to > be reasonably water tight on the sides and bottom & the top would or will > be hinged > > I am looking on the web, but if anyone has a wise suggestion on a source > for a fiberglass or HDPE box 48x48x36 deep vault. > > > > Any suppliers you would suggest would be appreciated. Any brilliant ideas > entertained. > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel > > Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 > > E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com > > O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 > > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 20:38:21 2015 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2015 20:38:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LARGE Underground vault box In-Reply-To: <011701d0837c$990e02c0$cb2a0840$@com> References: <011701d0837c$990e02c0$cb2a0840$@com> Message-ID: We use Quazite for our medium voltage and low voltage manholes. https://www.google.com.ai/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hubbellpowersystems.com%2Fabout%2Fquazite%2F&ei=78pCVcq0LMqYgwTgmYG4Bw&usg=AFQjCNGhEAhJNMZ5U7bfErgrPcr-oxd9HA&bvm=bv.92189499,d.eXY On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 3:33 PM, Dana wrote: > Hey All you wise ones! > > > > I am doing a pathway ice& snow melt project for one of our local > geothermal hot springs. > > I need to set a 48x48x36 vault in the ground in a location where we cannot > get even remotely close with a vehicle or concrete truck. It would be a > very long a reach for a small & reasonably priced crane. The vault needs to > be reasonably water tight on the sides and bottom & the top would or will > be hinged > > I am looking on the web, but if anyone has a wise suggestion on a source > for a fiberglass or HDPE box 48x48x36 deep vault. > > > > Any suppliers you would suggest would be appreciated. Any brilliant ideas > entertained. > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel > > Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 > > E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com > > O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 > > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 20:45:15 2015 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2015 20:45:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Apprentice interview In-Reply-To: <5542505D.6050501@starlightsolar.com> References: <55303C87.9080401@solarray.com> <007701d0789c$e5a65960$b0f30c20$@com> <553172A5.2080308@solarray.com> <2FF9D644-6F53-4CE9-A472-ABD856017B55@electronconnection.com> <554029B3.6050002@solarray.com> <55403B93.8060200@midnitesolar.com> <5542505D.6050501@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Apprentices don't need to know anything. THat's why they are in training. And if they get it wrong, it's the fault of the teacher, not the student. Many of you are missing my point, thankfully Richard Ratico was able to clarify the situation. This is not about whether young people are good workers, it is about the use and abuse of the term "apprentice". America is too young to have a history in the guilds, but in Europe, the apprentice system is an historic arrangement. In London, the Guild Hall is a venerable building dedicated to the crafts. There is a lot of history there, and to demean it by confusing apprentices with cheap labour is not the right way to get validation for a young industry. If solar is to rank with Electricians and Plumbers, it has to recognize the value of a standardized education and to adopt real standards. You cannot let just any yobo call themselves a solar installer and expect to have any credibility. On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 11:55 AM, Larry wrote: > Or... > know the difference between an amp and an amp-hour or a Watt and a > Watt-hour? > Or can they explain what is wrong with someone saying "amps per hour"? > Can they explain what is wrong with this PV solar install? > > > > Ray, I hope you find a student that will appreciate the wisdom of a > graybeard. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > On 4/28/15 7:01 PM, boB at midnitesolar.com wrote: > > > > May I please add.... > > > 1) Must know the difference between AC and DC. > > 2) Must be able to identify what each prong is when shown an AC plug. > > boB > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: aegfcaji. Type: image/png Size: 143548 bytes Desc: not available URL: From swingjunkie at gmail.com Fri May 1 09:45:44 2015 From: swingjunkie at gmail.com (Carl Adams) Date: Fri, 1 May 2015 09:45:44 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: 72 cell Mono modules needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, I am looking for a good tier 1 module for an upcoming project. The architect has speced mono crystalline modules in the 300w - 325w range, approximate size 77" x 40". Any recommendations on a product and supplier would be appreciated. With regards Carl Adams NABCEP Certified PV Installer SunRock Solar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Fri May 1 09:49:31 2015 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (Mike Nelson) Date: Fri, 1 May 2015 06:49:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: 72 cell Mono modules needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2A90FD8F-17FC-4ACB-A2D6-A83CD1E0C14E@gmail.com> Solarworld. Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com Sent from my iPhone > On May 1, 2015, at 6:45 AM, Carl Adams wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > I am looking for a good tier 1 module for an upcoming project. The architect has speced mono crystalline modules in the 300w - 325w range, approximate size 77" x 40". Any recommendations on a product and supplier would be appreciated. > > With regards > Carl Adams > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > SunRock Solar > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri May 1 09:12:33 2015 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Fri, 01 May 2015 09:12:33 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LARGE Underground vault box In-Reply-To: References: <011701d0837c$990e02c0$cb2a0840$@com> <55429DCC.9010601@solarray.com> Message-ID: <20150501131234.764F5284058@homiemail-a47.g.dreamhost.com> During WW II a method of mixing concrete for the trenches was developed that works incredibly well. The only equipment needed is a tarp. It takes two reasonably strong bodies, but is not an athletic feat. All you do is dump the bag of dry mix in the middle of the tarp, the pour in water. The two people on the tarp mix it by simultaneously pulling up opposing corners of the tarp. It takes only a minute or so to mix an 80 pound bag of ready mix. It is quicker than a mixer, and clean up is really easy. It can consist of letting the tarp dry and then shaking it. The tarp is useful in funneling the concrete into the desired area. Three of us filled a 5' deep by 3' diameter pole mount footer in about 90 minutes. It is too easy. I will never rent a mixer again. Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ At 12:23 AM 5/1/2015, you wrote: >Would a concrete pumper and hose do the trick >Jerry >On Apr 30, 2015 11:25 AM, "Ray Walters" ><ray at solarray.com> wrote: >oldcastleprecast.com/enclosuresolutions > >I was just looking at these enclosures for a >potential battery enclosure to set in the ground for more stable temperatures. > >R.Ray Walters > >CTO, Solarray, Inc > >Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > >Licensed Master Electrician > >Solar Design Engineer > >303 505-8760 >On 4/30/2015 1:33 PM, Dana wrote: >> >>Hey All you wise ones! >> >> >> >>I am doing a pathway ice& snow melt project for >>one of our local geothermal hot springs. >> >>I need to set a 48x48x36 vault in the ground in >>a location where we cannot get even remotely >>close with a vehicle or concrete truck. It >>would be a very long a reach for a small & >>reasonably priced crane. The vault needs to be >>reasonably water tight on the sides and bottom >>& the top would or will be hinged >> >>I am looking on the web, but if anyone has a >>wise suggestion on a source for a fiberglass or HDPE box 48x48x36 deep vault. >> >> >> >>Any suppliers you would suggest would be >>appreciated. Any brilliant ideas entertained. >> >> >> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>Dana Orzel >> >>Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 >> >>E - >>dana at solarwork.com >>- Web - solarwork.com >> >>O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 >> >>"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >> >>P Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >> >>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >>List Address: >>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >>Change listserver email address & settings: >> >>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >>List-Archive: >>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >>List rules & etiquette: >> >>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >>Check out or update participant bios: >> >>www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Fri May 1 10:02:09 2015 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Fri, 1 May 2015 10:02:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: 72 cell Mono modules needed In-Reply-To: <2A90FD8F-17FC-4ACB-A2D6-A83CD1E0C14E@gmail.com> References: <2A90FD8F-17FC-4ACB-A2D6-A83CD1E0C14E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <010f01d08417$6a35a840$3ea0f8c0$@solarandwindfx.com> SunPower especially if you have sqft restrictions. Christopher Chris Schaefer’s SolarWindFX Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mike Nelson Sent: Friday, 01 May, 2015 09:50 To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: 72 cell Mono modules needed Solarworld. Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com Sent from my iPhone On May 1, 2015, at 6:45 AM, Carl Adams wrote: Hello Wrenches, I am looking for a good tier 1 module for an upcoming project. The architect has speced mono crystalline modules in the 300w - 325w range, approximate size 77" x 40". Any recommendations on a product and supplier would be appreciated. With regards Carl Adams NABCEP Certified PV Installer SunRock Solar _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 12101 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image012.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2816 bytes Desc: not available URL: From august at luminalt.com Fri May 1 18:49:50 2015 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 1 May 2015 15:49:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar Message-ID: <7fc2a1270dc92a5ba825fe82ab411d45@mail.gmail.com> Hi Wrenches, I’m sure you’ve seen the Tesla Powerwall press releases by now: http://www.teslamotors.com/presskit/teslaenergy We are already getting calls from interested homeowners. The product mostly seems like a toy for wealthy people but nonetheless I would like to be educated in how it works. There is mention that the battery pairs with Solar Edge inverters which makes sense because both the Powerwall and Solar Edge work off of ~350 VDC. But, I can’t figure out how off grid operation would work during power outages. Maybe another battery inverter like a Schneider Conext is required? Any thoughts on this product for better or worse? Best, August -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri May 1 19:46:43 2015 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Fri, 1 May 2015 19:46:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar In-Reply-To: <7fc2a1270dc92a5ba825fe82ab411d45@mail.gmail.com> References: <7fc2a1270dc92a5ba825fe82ab411d45@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000301d08469$15890c40$409b24c0$@burt@glbcc.com> I can tell you that the Solar Edge inverters do not support AC coupling, as their reps told me at the NABCEP CE conference… I have seen pictures of some Solar City battery systems that use an XW as the inverter. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers Sent: Friday, May 01, 2015 6:50 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar Hi Wrenches, I’m sure you’ve seen the Tesla Powerwall press releases by now: http://www.teslamotors.com/presskit/teslaenergy We are already getting calls from interested homeowners. The product mostly seems like a toy for wealthy people but nonetheless I would like to be educated in how it works. There is mention that the battery pairs with Solar Edge inverters which makes sense because both the Powerwall and Solar Edge work off of ~350 VDC. But, I can’t figure out how off grid operation would work during power outages. Maybe another battery inverter like a Schneider Conext is required? Any thoughts on this product for better or worse? Best, August -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Fri May 1 19:12:29 2015 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (Mike Nelson) Date: Fri, 1 May 2015 16:12:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar In-Reply-To: <7fc2a1270dc92a5ba825fe82ab411d45@mail.gmail.com> References: <7fc2a1270dc92a5ba825fe82ab411d45@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: August, I've been wondering the same things myself all day long. What we need is a battery based inverter that can work off of 350 V DC nominal battery voltage? Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com Sent from my iPhone > On May 1, 2015, at 3:49 PM, August Goers wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, > > I’m sure you’ve seen the Tesla Powerwall press releases by now: > > http://www.teslamotors.com/presskit/teslaenergy > > We are already getting calls from interested homeowners. The product mostly seems like a toy for wealthy people but nonetheless I would like to be educated in how it works. > > There is mention that the battery pairs with Solar Edge inverters which makes sense because both the Powerwall and Solar Edge work off of ~350 VDC. But, I can’t figure out how off grid operation would work during power outages. Maybe another battery inverter like a Schneider Conext is required? > > Any thoughts on this product for better or worse? > > Best, > > August > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri May 1 20:06:07 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 1 May 2015 17:06:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Demand charges for residential In-Reply-To: <55441081.8359440a.7879.630aSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <7fc2a1270dc92a5ba825fe82ab411d45@mail.gmail.com> <55441081.8359440a.7879.630aSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <7BD9C70E-A709-4C1B-B3F3-E89FEDD45964@gmail.com> > Hi all A different question. The tesla sites makes the claim that " often power companies charge for peak rates " My question is where is this happening in the us for residential customers? Thanks Jay. Peltz power. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri May 1 20:02:13 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 1 May 2015 17:02:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar In-Reply-To: <55441081.8359440a.7879.630aSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <7fc2a1270dc92a5ba825fe82ab411d45@mail.gmail.com> <55441081.8359440a.7879.630aSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: From what I've read on teslas website. The batteries are 350-450vdc. These are not for existing 12-48v battery based inverters. Jay Peltz power > On May 1, 2015, at 4:46 PM, "Glenn Burt" wrote: > > I can tell you that the Solar Edge inverters do not support AC coupling, as their reps told me at the NABCEP CE conference… > I have seen pictures of some Solar City battery systems that use an XW as the inverter. > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers > Sent: Friday, May 01, 2015 6:50 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar > > Hi Wrenches, > > I’m sure you’ve seen the Tesla Powerwall press releases by now: > > http://www.teslamotors.com/presskit/teslaenergy > > We are already getting calls from interested homeowners. The product mostly seems like a toy for wealthy people but nonetheless I would like to be educated in how it works. > > There is mention that the battery pairs with Solar Edge inverters which makes sense because both the Powerwall and Solar Edge work off of ~350 VDC. But, I can’t figure out how off grid operation would work during power outages. Maybe another battery inverter like a Schneider Conext is required? > > Any thoughts on this product for better or worse? > > Best, > > August > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From boB at midnitesolar.com Sat May 2 03:12:16 2015 From: boB at midnitesolar.com (boB at midnitesolar.com) Date: Sat, 02 May 2015 00:12:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar In-Reply-To: References: <7fc2a1270dc92a5ba825fe82ab411d45@mail.gmail.com> <55441081.8359440a.7879.630aSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <554478D0.9040708@midnitesolar.com> When I was at Intersolar 2 years ago in Munich I saw Solar Edge's system. This article mentioned them as one of their partners. This was for Europe's "Self Consumption" program. The solar array is somewhere around 400 volts DC, regulated somewhat by the optimizers, and feeds into the input of the bi-directional inverter and at the same time, to the bi-directional charge controller and into the batteries (48V I think) So the charge controller can take from the batteries and feed to the 400V (ish) bus and come out the inverter as AC to the grid and of course to power the house. There was a whole bunch of this kind of battery-solar interactive stuff at that show. It was a pretty cool thing. They (Germany, etc) want to be able to offset the utility usage during peak times to relieve the grid. I figured it was just a matter of time before something like this might show up here. I think this may be similar except at 400V battery. But this new system, with the inverters as small power wise as they are going to start out as, will not quite "power your house" ? The article I read made it sound like this was something brand new. Imagine, people making their own electricity ? Can't be done ! Can it ? boB On 5/1/2015 5:02 PM, Jay wrote: > From what I've read on teslas website. > The batteries are 350-450vdc. > These are not for existing 12-48v battery based inverters. > > Jay > Peltz power > > > > > On May 1, 2015, at 4:46 PM, "Glenn Burt" > wrote: > >> I can tell you that the Solar Edge inverters do not support AC >> coupling, as their reps told me at the NABCEP CE conference… >> >> I have seen pictures of some Solar City battery systems that use an >> XW as the inverter. >> >> *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] >> *On Behalf Of *August Goers >> *Sent:* Friday, May 01, 2015 6:50 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar >> >> Hi Wrenches, >> >> I’m sure you’ve seen the Tesla Powerwall press releases by now: >> >> http://www.teslamotors.com/presskit/teslaenergy >> >> We are already getting calls from interested homeowners. The product >> mostly seems like a toy for wealthy people but nonetheless I would >> like to be educated in how it works. >> >> There is mention that the battery pairs with Solar Edge inverters >> which makes sense because both the Powerwall and Solar Edge work off >> of ~350 VDC. But, I can’t figure out how off grid operation would >> work during power outages. Maybe another battery inverter like a >> Schneider Conext is required? >> >> Any thoughts on this product for better or worse? >> >> Best, >> >> August >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirk at vtsolar.com Sat May 2 07:21:48 2015 From: kirk at vtsolar.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Sat, 2 May 2015 07:21:48 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar In-Reply-To: <000301d08469$15890c40$409b24c0$@burt@glbcc.com> References: <7fc2a1270dc92a5ba825fe82ab411d45@mail.gmail.com> <000301d08469$15890c40$409b24c0$@burt@glbcc.com> Message-ID: <002101d084ca$2f1e4ec0$8d5aec40$@vtsolar.com> John Berdner of Solaredge (still with them??) in a previous discussion on this forum has stated that Solaredge can be AC-coupled, with a firmware tweak I believe he said. Kirk Herander VT Solar, LLC Proven PV provider since 1991 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt Sent: Friday, May 01, 2015 7:47 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar I can tell you that the Solar Edge inverters do not support AC coupling, as their reps told me at the NABCEP CE conference… I have seen pictures of some Solar City battery systems that use an XW as the inverter. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers Sent: Friday, May 01, 2015 6:50 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar Hi Wrenches, I’m sure you’ve seen the Tesla Powerwall press releases by now: http://www.teslamotors.com/presskit/teslaenergy We are already getting calls from interested homeowners. The product mostly seems like a toy for wealthy people but nonetheless I would like to be educated in how it works. There is mention that the battery pairs with Solar Edge inverters which makes sense because both the Powerwall and Solar Edge work off of ~350 VDC. But, I can’t figure out how off grid operation would work during power outages. Maybe another battery inverter like a Schneider Conext is required? Any thoughts on this product for better or worse? Best, August -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Sat May 2 08:45:47 2015 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Sat, 2 May 2015 08:45:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar In-Reply-To: <002101d084ca$2f1e4ec0$8d5aec40$@vtsolar.com> References: <7fc2a1270dc92a5ba825fe82ab411d45@mail.gmail.com> <000301d08469$15890c40$409b24c0$@burt@glbcc.com> <002101d084ca$2f1e4ec0$8d5aec40$@vtsolar.com> Message-ID: <00a101d084d5$e9d427c0$bd7c7740$@solarandwindfx.com> Kurt, since you’re a vermonter perhaps you’ve got an inside contact with Green Mountain Power that can shed some light? Same issue here in NY, I’ve got phone messages and emails asking about it. So we kinda need to know what the battery voltage is in order to figure out how many amp hours the bank is. Wonder how many life cycles, suggested DOD? Christopher Chris Schaefer’s SolarWindFX Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirk Herander Sent: Saturday, 02 May, 2015 07:22 To: glenn.burt at glbcc.com; 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar John Berdner of Solaredge (still with them??) in a previous discussion on this forum has stated that Solaredge can be AC-coupled, with a firmware tweak I believe he said. Kirk Herander VT Solar, LLC Proven PV provider since 1991 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt Sent: Friday, May 01, 2015 7:47 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar I can tell you that the Solar Edge inverters do not support AC coupling, as their reps told me at the NABCEP CE conference… I have seen pictures of some Solar City battery systems that use an XW as the inverter. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers Sent: Friday, May 01, 2015 6:50 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar Hi Wrenches, I’m sure you’ve seen the Tesla Powerwall press releases by now: http://www.teslamotors.com/presskit/teslaenergy We are already getting calls from interested homeowners. The product mostly seems like a toy for wealthy people but nonetheless I would like to be educated in how it works. There is mention that the battery pairs with Solar Edge inverters which makes sense because both the Powerwall and Solar Edge work off of ~350 VDC. But, I can’t figure out how off grid operation would work during power outages. Maybe another battery inverter like a Schneider Conext is required? Any thoughts on this product for better or worse? Best, August -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image011.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2385 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image012.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2816 bytes Desc: not available URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sat May 2 09:03:46 2015 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sat, 2 May 2015 07:03:46 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar In-Reply-To: <00a101d084d5$e9d427c0$bd7c7740$@solarandwindfx.com> References: <7fc2a1270dc92a5ba825fe82ab411d45@mail.gmail.com> <002101d084ca$2f1e4ec0$8d5aec40$@vtsolar.com> <00a101d084d5$e9d427c0$bd7c7740$@solarandwindfx.com> Message-ID: The Tesla media kit describes 2 models, a 7kwh and a 10kwh: Tesla’s selling price to installers is $3500 for 10kWh and $3000 for 7kWh. (Price excludes inverter and installation.) Deliveries begin in late Summer. Powerwall specs: - Mounting: Wall Mounted Indoor/Outdoor - Inverter: Pairs with growing list of inverters - Energy: 7 kWh or 10 kWh - Continuous Power: 2 kW - Peak Power: 3.3 kW - Round Trip Efficiency: >92% - Operating Temperature Range: -20C (-4F) to 43C (110F) - Warranty: 10 years - Dimensions: H: 1300mm W: 860mm D:180mm Nice price point, no info on the BMS or usable DOD. Power only 2kW with peak of 3.3kW? Ouch, most off grid homes do better than that. Also 7-10 kWh of energy storage would be fine for an small, efficient off-grid home and conservative user, but my math shows only a few hours of autonomy time for the typical American homeowner. Dan Fink Buckville Energy IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 6:45 AM, Chris Schaefer wrote: > Kurt, since you’re a vermonter perhaps you’ve got an inside contact with > Green Mountain Power that can shed some light? Same issue here in NY, I’ve > got phone messages and emails asking about it. So we kinda need to know > what the battery voltage is in order to figure out how many amp hours the > bank is. Wonder how many life cycles, suggested DOD? > > > > Christopher > > Chris Schaefer’s > > [image: SolarWindFX] > > * Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 <585-229-2083> or Cell > 585-748-1870 <585-748-1870> * > > * 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424* > > *www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: > chris at solarandwindfx.com * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Kirk Herander > *Sent:* Saturday, 02 May, 2015 07:22 > *To:* glenn.burt at glbcc.com; 'RE-wrenches' > > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar > > > > John Berdner of Solaredge (still with them??) in a previous discussion on > this forum has stated that Solaredge can be AC-coupled, with a firmware > tweak I believe he said. > > > > *Kirk Herander* > > *VT Solar, LLC * > > *Proven PV provider since 1991* > > *www.vermontsolarnow.com * > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > 802.863.1202 > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of *Glenn Burt > *Sent:* Friday, May 01, 2015 7:47 PM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar > > > > I can tell you that the Solar Edge inverters do not support AC coupling, > as their reps told me at the NABCEP CE conference… > > I have seen pictures of some Solar City battery systems that use an XW as > the inverter. > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *August Goers > *Sent:* Friday, May 01, 2015 6:50 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar > > > > Hi Wrenches, > > > > I’m sure you’ve seen the Tesla Powerwall press releases by now: > > > > http://www.teslamotors.com/presskit/teslaenergy > > > > We are already getting calls from interested homeowners. The product > mostly seems like a toy for wealthy people but nonetheless I would like to > be educated in how it works. > > > > There is mention that the battery pairs with Solar Edge inverters which > makes sense because both the Powerwall and Solar Edge work off of ~350 > VDC. But, I can’t figure out how off grid operation would work during > power outages. Maybe another battery inverter like a Schneider Conext is > required? > > > > Any thoughts on this product for better or worse? > > > > Best, > > > > August > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image009.png Type: image/png Size: 18652 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image011.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2385 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image012.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2816 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image010.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2566 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dave at independentpowerllc.com Sat May 2 09:07:29 2015 From: dave at independentpowerllc.com (Dave) Date: Sat, 2 May 2015 09:07:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar In-Reply-To: References: <7fc2a1270dc92a5ba825fe82ab411d45@mail.gmail.com> <002101d084ca$2f1e4ec0$8d5aec40$@vtsolar.com> <00a101d084d5$e9d427c0$bd7c7740$@solarandwindfx.com> Message-ID: <014e01d084d8$f20a2d60$d61e8820$@com> These "walls" are smallish, so can you parallel them in a simple manner to fit the need? David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-888-7194 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dan Fink Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2015 9:04 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar The Tesla media kit describes 2 models, a 7kwh and a 10kwh: Tesla’s selling price to installers is $3500 for 10kWh and $3000 for 7kWh. (Price excludes inverter and installation.) Deliveries begin in late Summer. Powerwall specs: · Mounting: Wall Mounted Indoor/Outdoor · Inverter: Pairs with growing list of inverters · Energy: 7 kWh or 10 kWh · Continuous Power: 2 kW · Peak Power: 3.3 kW · Round Trip Efficiency: >92% · Operating Temperature Range: -20C (-4F) to 43C (110F) · Warranty: 10 years · Dimensions: H: 1300mm W: 860mm D:180mm Nice price point, no info on the BMS or usable DOD. Power only 2kW with peak of 3.3kW? Ouch, most off grid homes do better than that. Also 7-10 kWh of energy storage would be fine for an small, efficient off-grid home and conservative user, but my math shows only a few hours of autonomy time for the typical American homeowner. Dan Fink Buckville Energy IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 6:45 AM, Chris Schaefer wrote: Kurt, since you’re a vermonter perhaps you’ve got an inside contact with Green Mountain Power that can shed some light? Same issue here in NY, I’ve got phone messages and emails asking about it. So we kinda need to know what the battery voltage is in order to figure out how many amp hours the bank is. Wonder how many life cycles, suggested DOD? Christopher Chris Schaefer’s SolarWindFX Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirk Herander Sent: Saturday, 02 May, 2015 07:22 To: glenn.burt at glbcc.com; 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar John Berdner of Solaredge (still with them??) in a previous discussion on this forum has stated that Solaredge can be AC-coupled, with a firmware tweak I believe he said. Kirk Herander VT Solar, LLC Proven PV provider since 1991 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt Sent: Friday, May 01, 2015 7:47 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar I can tell you that the Solar Edge inverters do not support AC coupling, as their reps told me at the NABCEP CE conference… I have seen pictures of some Solar City battery systems that use an XW as the inverter. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers Sent: Friday, May 01, 2015 6:50 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar Hi Wrenches, I’m sure you’ve seen the Tesla Powerwall press releases by now: http://www.teslamotors.com/presskit/teslaenergy We are already getting calls from interested homeowners. The product mostly seems like a toy for wealthy people but nonetheless I would like to be educated in how it works. There is mention that the battery pairs with Solar Edge inverters which makes sense because both the Powerwall and Solar Edge work off of ~350 VDC. But, I can’t figure out how off grid operation would work during power outages. Maybe another battery inverter like a Schneider Conext is required? Any thoughts on this product for better or worse? Best, August _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 18652 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2566 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2385 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2816 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat May 2 06:59:15 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 2 May 2015 06:59:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar In-Reply-To: <7fc2a1270dc92a5ba825fe82ab411d45@mail.gmail.com> References: <7fc2a1270dc92a5ba825fe82ab411d45@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Yep, the calls are already flowing in. It drives me nuts when people think a $3,000 battery is going to solve all of their energy woes. It's akin to people asking me why a PV system is not $0.65/w installed. >From what I read, the battery will have a DC-DC converter, presumably 400V-48V. That's how it can be connected to a standard battery-based inverter. I haven't seen detailed specs, but the marketing fluff seems to indicate it will pair nicely with off-the-shelf inverters, which leads me to believe that any brand will do. I'm thinking Radian or Conext or something like that. I hate to be negative, but there seems to be nothing revolutionary here except that it will be commercially available, it's consumer friendly (cute), and financing will be readily available. There is no dollars and cents benefit that I can see compared to existing solutions. If they can scale it up to drop the price, then we might have something to talk about. Jason Szumlanski On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 6:49 PM, August Goers wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > > > I’m sure you’ve seen the Tesla Powerwall press releases by now: > > > > http://www.teslamotors.com/presskit/teslaenergy > > > > We are already getting calls from interested homeowners. The product > mostly seems like a toy for wealthy people but nonetheless I would like to > be educated in how it works. > > > > There is mention that the battery pairs with Solar Edge inverters which > makes sense because both the Powerwall and Solar Edge work off of ~350 > VDC. But, I can’t figure out how off grid operation would work during > power outages. Maybe another battery inverter like a Schneider Conext is > required? > > > > Any thoughts on this product for better or worse? > > > > Best, > > > > August > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sat May 2 11:04:10 2015 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Sat, 2 May 2015 11:04:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar In-Reply-To: <002101d084ca$2f1e4ec0$8d5aec40$@vtsolar.com> References: <7fc2a1270dc92a5ba825fe82ab411d45@mail.gmail.com> <000301d08469$15890c40$409b24c0$@burt@glbcc.com> <002101d084ca$2f1e4ec0$8d5aec40$@vtsolar.com> Message-ID: <004e01d084e9$40378090$c0a681b0$@burt@glbcc.com> Well on March 31st I had a conversation with Luc Collin who is a Field Application Engineer with Solar Edge, and I asked him if they support AC coupling with their systems. He told me that no, they do not, and I took that as the official Solar Edge position from a warranty standpoint. Now if John said something different since then, I do not recall it, however if it were stated prior to March of this year, perhaps he said it with a wink-wink, nudge-nudge as in it could be done, but perhaps he did not clearly state that SE would support it or honor warranty claims for a system that is installed that way. Glenn Burt glb, Consulting Company 1949 East Road Bennington, VT 05201 glenn.burt at glbcc.com (518) 587-7745 (518) 681-2274 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional TM Microsoft Certified Professional Member IEEE From: Kirk Herander [mailto:kirk at vtsolar.com] Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2015 7:22 AM To: glenn.burt at glbcc.com; 'RE-wrenches' Subject: RE: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar John Berdner of Solaredge (still with them??) in a previous discussion on this forum has stated that Solaredge can be AC-coupled, with a firmware tweak I believe he said. Kirk Herander VT Solar, LLC Proven PV provider since 1991 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt Sent: Friday, May 01, 2015 7:47 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar I can tell you that the Solar Edge inverters do not support AC coupling, as their reps told me at the NABCEP CE conference… I have seen pictures of some Solar City battery systems that use an XW as the inverter. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers Sent: Friday, May 01, 2015 6:50 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar Hi Wrenches, I’m sure you’ve seen the Tesla Powerwall press releases by now: http://www.teslamotors.com/presskit/teslaenergy We are already getting calls from interested homeowners. The product mostly seems like a toy for wealthy people but nonetheless I would like to be educated in how it works. There is mention that the battery pairs with Solar Edge inverters which makes sense because both the Powerwall and Solar Edge work off of ~350 VDC. But, I can’t figure out how off grid operation would work during power outages. Maybe another battery inverter like a Schneider Conext is required? Any thoughts on this product for better or worse? Best, August -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Sat May 2 18:57:51 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Sat, 02 May 2015 16:57:51 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar In-Reply-To: References: <7fc2a1270dc92a5ba825fe82ab411d45@mail.gmail.com> <002101d084ca$2f1e4ec0$8d5aec40$@vtsolar.com> <00a101d084d5$e9d427c0$bd7c7740$@solarandwindfx.com> Message-ID: <5545566F.9020108@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 18652 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 2566 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 2385 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 2816 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tom at wagonmaker.com Sat May 2 19:01:04 2015 From: tom at wagonmaker.com (Tom at wagonmaker) Date: Sat, 2 May 2015 13:01:04 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar In-Reply-To: <5545566F.9020108@sindelarsolar.com> References: <7fc2a1270dc92a5ba825fe82ab411d45@mail.gmail.com> <002101d084ca$2f1e4ec0$8d5aec40$@vtsolar.com> <00a101d084d5$e9d427c0$bd7c7740$@solarandwindfx.com> <5545566F.9020108@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <1AEC13905B0147278CF8B20312E9800A@TomsHP> The ability to string multiple powerwalls together to get up to 90 KWhrs of storage makes them modular and likely quite easy to install. The price is rather high but I haven’t priced batteries lately for comparison. The built in safety features will make for a good selling point too. I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt for now. Tom From: Allan Sindelar Sent: Saturday, May 2, 2015 12:57 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar Well, I'll go out on a limb and speculate that this is a game changer. There will be a lot of buzz, and it'll shift general public perceptions. There'll be a greater mainstream awareness that "batteries" are improving. A number of my off grid clients are quite ready for an alternative to FLA batteries. The Teslas may have strictly limited applications now, but I'll predict that these are the start of a seismic shift. Allan Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell On 5/2/2015 7:03 AM, Dan Fink wrote: The Tesla media kit describes 2 models, a 7kwh and a 10kwh: Tesla’s selling price to installers is $3500 for 10kWh and $3000 for 7kWh. (Price excludes inverter and installation.) Deliveries begin in late Summer. Powerwall specs: a.. Mounting: Wall Mounted Indoor/Outdoor b.. Inverter: Pairs with growing list of inverters c.. Energy: 7 kWh or 10 kWh d.. Continuous Power: 2 kW e.. Peak Power: 3.3 kW f.. Round Trip Efficiency: >92% g.. Operating Temperature Range: -20C (-4F) to 43C (110F) h.. Warranty: 10 years i.. Dimensions: H: 1300mm W: 860mm D:180mm Nice price point, no info on the BMS or usable DOD. Power only 2kW with peak of 3.3kW? Ouch, most off grid homes do better than that. Also 7-10 kWh of energy storage would be fine for an small, efficient off-grid home and conservative user, but my math shows only a few hours of autonomy time for the typical American homeowner. Dan Fink Buckville Energy IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 6:45 AM, Chris Schaefer wrote: Kurt, since you’re a vermonter perhaps you’ve got an inside contact with Green Mountain Power that can shed some light? Same issue here in NY, I’ve got phone messages and emails asking about it. So we kinda need to know what the battery voltage is in order to figure out how many amp hours the bank is. Wonder how many life cycles, suggested DOD? Christopher Chris Schaefer’s Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirk Herander Sent: Saturday, 02 May, 2015 07:22 To: glenn.burt at glbcc.com; 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar John Berdner of Solaredge (still with them??) in a previous discussion on this forum has stated that Solaredge can be AC-coupled, with a firmware tweak I believe he said. Kirk Herander VT Solar, LLC Proven PV provider since 1991 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt Sent: Friday, May 01, 2015 7:47 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar I can tell you that the Solar Edge inverters do not support AC coupling, as their reps told me at the NABCEP CE conference… I have seen pictures of some Solar City battery systems that use an XW as the inverter. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers Sent: Friday, May 01, 2015 6:50 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar Hi Wrenches, I’m sure you’ve seen the Tesla Powerwall press releases by now: http://www.teslamotors.com/presskit/teslaenergy We are already getting calls from interested homeowners. The product mostly seems like a toy for wealthy people but nonetheless I would like to be educated in how it works. There is mention that the battery pairs with Solar Edge inverters which makes sense because both the Powerwall and Solar Edge work off of ~350 VDC. But, I can’t figure out how off grid operation would work during power outages. Maybe another battery inverter like a Schneider Conext is required? Any thoughts on this product for better or worse? Best, August _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 2816 bytes Desc: not available URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sat May 2 19:25:41 2015 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sat, 2 May 2015 17:25:41 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar In-Reply-To: <5545566F.9020108@sindelarsolar.com> References: <7fc2a1270dc92a5ba825fe82ab411d45@mail.gmail.com> <002101d084ca$2f1e4ec0$8d5aec40$@vtsolar.com> <00a101d084d5$e9d427c0$bd7c7740$@solarandwindfx.com> <5545566F.9020108@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: UN-fortunately I predict there will soon be an onslaught of misinformed journalists who don't really understand units of measure squeaking and squawking about "kilowatts per day" and such power vs energy confusion nonsense. Brace yourselves, it's already pouring in on social media, and will be on your doorstep soon from real potential clients. I love Watts and being off-grid especially KWH, they are SI, US and all the rest. . Best of luck trying to pitch a sale with them, though, with all the new hype. Dan Fink Buckville Energy IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 4:57 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > Well, I'll go out on a limb and speculate that this is a game changer. > There will be a lot of buzz, and it'll shift general public perceptions. > There'll be a greater mainstream awareness that "batteries" are improving. > A number of my off grid clients are quite ready for an alternative to FLA > batteries. The Teslas may have strictly limited applications now, but I'll > predict that these are the start of a seismic shift. > Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* > > > On 5/2/2015 7:03 AM, Dan Fink wrote: > > The Tesla media kit describes 2 models, a 7kwh and a 10kwh: > > Tesla’s selling price to installers is $3500 for 10kWh and $3000 for 7kWh. > (Price excludes inverter and installation.) Deliveries begin in late Summer. > > Powerwall specs: > > - Mounting: Wall Mounted Indoor/Outdoor > - Inverter: Pairs with growing list of inverters > - Energy: 7 kWh or 10 kWh > - Continuous Power: 2 kW > - Peak Power: 3.3 kW > - Round Trip Efficiency: >92% > - Operating Temperature Range: -20C (-4F) to 43C (110F) > - Warranty: 10 years > - Dimensions: H: 1300mm W: 860mm D:180mm > > Nice price point, no info on the BMS or usable DOD. > > Power only 2kW with peak of 3.3kW? Ouch, most off grid homes do better > than that. Also 7-10 kWh of energy storage would be fine for an small, > efficient off-grid home and conservative user, but my math shows only a few > hours of autonomy time for the typical American homeowner. > > Dan Fink > Buckville Energy > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > > On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 6:45 AM, Chris Schaefer > wrote: > >> Kurt, since you’re a vermonter perhaps you’ve got an inside contact >> with Green Mountain Power that can shed some light? Same issue here in NY, >> I’ve got phone messages and emails asking about it. So we kinda need to >> know what the battery voltage is in order to figure out how many amp hours >> the bank is. Wonder how many life cycles, suggested DOD? >> >> >> >> Christopher >> >> Chris Schaefer’s >> >> [image: SolarWindFX] >> >> * Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 <585-229-2083> or Cell >> 585-748-1870 <585-748-1870> * >> >> * 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424* >> >> *www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: >> chris at solarandwindfx.com * >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >> willing to work and give to those who would not." >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Kirk Herander >> *Sent:* Saturday, 02 May, 2015 07:22 >> *To:* glenn.burt at glbcc.com; 'RE-wrenches' >> >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar >> >> >> >> John Berdner of Solaredge (still with them??) in a previous discussion on >> this forum has stated that Solaredge can be AC-coupled, with a firmware >> tweak I believe he said. >> >> >> >> *Kirk Herander* >> >> *VT Solar, LLC * >> >> *Proven PV provider since 1991* >> >> *www.vermontsolarnow.com * >> >> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >> >> NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant >> >> VT RE Incentive Program Partner >> >> 802.863.1202 >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >> ] *On Behalf Of *Glenn Burt >> *Sent:* Friday, May 01, 2015 7:47 PM >> *To:* 'RE-wrenches' >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar >> >> >> >> I can tell you that the Solar Edge inverters do not support AC coupling, >> as their reps told me at the NABCEP CE conference… >> >> I have seen pictures of some Solar City battery systems that use an XW as >> the inverter. >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *August Goers >> *Sent:* Friday, May 01, 2015 6:50 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar >> >> >> >> Hi Wrenches, >> >> >> >> I’m sure you’ve seen the Tesla Powerwall press releases by now: >> >> >> >> http://www.teslamotors.com/presskit/teslaenergy >> >> >> >> We are already getting calls from interested homeowners. The product >> mostly seems like a toy for wealthy people but nonetheless I would like to >> be educated in how it works. >> >> >> >> There is mention that the battery pairs with Solar Edge inverters which >> makes sense because both the Powerwall and Solar Edge work off of ~350 >> VDC. But, I can’t figure out how off grid operation would work during >> power outages. Maybe another battery inverter like a Schneider Conext is >> required? >> >> >> >> Any thoughts on this product for better or worse? >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> >> >> August >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 18652 bytes Desc: not available URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Sat May 2 19:31:36 2015 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Sat, 2 May 2015 16:31:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar In-Reply-To: References: <7fc2a1270dc92a5ba825fe82ab411d45@mail.gmail.com> <002101d084ca$2f1e4ec0$8d5aec40$@vtsolar.com> <00a101d084d5$e9d427c0$bd7c7740$@solarandwindfx.com> <5545566F.9020108@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <1430609496.10813842@webmail.finestplanet.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: part3.05030008.00020709 Type: image/png Size: 18652 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: part8.08000002.04020901 Type: image/jpeg Size: 2566 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: part9.04090901.03030907 Type: image/jpeg Size: 2385 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: part10.06080901.00010404 Type: image/jpeg Size: 2816 bytes Desc: not available URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sat May 2 19:46:04 2015 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sat, 2 May 2015 17:46:04 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar In-Reply-To: <5545566F.9020108@sindelarsolar.com> References: <7fc2a1270dc92a5ba825fe82ab411d45@mail.gmail.com> <002101d084ca$2f1e4ec0$8d5aec40$@vtsolar.com> <00a101d084d5$e9d427c0$bd7c7740$@solarandwindfx.com> <5545566F.9020108@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: The modular aspect is great, any rich townie just buys a whole bunch of them in parallel.. My worry is the long term, and what equipment works with them, nice 10 year warranty but what is the actual DOD vs cycle life?. And as Todd just pointed at, be realistic, off grid PV professionals, sorry folks - the game that just changed was the PR game, not our real world, batteries. Now you have to convince your potential clients that your actual math on kWh autonomy time is real, and how to break down what the TV news said into watts, amps, amp-hours and watt-hours. And the new game-changer won't give you any details. Dan Fink Buckville Energy IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 4:57 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > Well, I'll go out on a limb and speculate that this is a game changer. > There will be a lot of buzz, and it'll shift general public perceptions. > There'll be a greater mainstream awareness that "batteries" are improving. > A number of my off grid clients are quite ready for an alternative to FLA > batteries. The Teslas may have strictly limited applications now, but I'll > predict that these are the start of a seismic shift. > Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* > > > On 5/2/2015 7:03 AM, Dan Fink wrote: > > The Tesla media kit describes 2 models, a 7kwh and a 10kwh: > > Tesla’s selling price to installers is $3500 for 10kWh and $3000 for 7kWh. > (Price excludes inverter and installation.) Deliveries begin in late Summer. > > Powerwall specs: > > - Mounting: Wall Mounted Indoor/Outdoor > - Inverter: Pairs with growing list of inverters > - Energy: 7 kWh or 10 kWh > - Continuous Power: 2 kW > - Peak Power: 3.3 kW > - Round Trip Efficiency: >92% > - Operating Temperature Range: -20C (-4F) to 43C (110F) > - Warranty: 10 years > - Dimensions: H: 1300mm W: 860mm D:180mm > > Nice price point, no info on the BMS or usable DOD. > > Power only 2kW with peak of 3.3kW? Ouch, most off grid homes do better > than that. Also 7-10 kWh of energy storage would be fine for an small, > efficient off-grid home and conservative user, but my math shows only a few > hours of autonomy time for the typical American homeowner. > > Dan Fink > Buckville Energy > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > > On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 6:45 AM, Chris Schaefer > wrote: > >> Kurt, since you’re a vermonter perhaps you’ve got an inside contact >> with Green Mountain Power that can shed some light? Same issue here in NY, >> I’ve got phone messages and emails asking about it. So we kinda need to >> know what the battery voltage is in order to figure out how many amp hours >> the bank is. Wonder how many life cycles, suggested DOD? >> >> >> >> Christopher >> >> Chris Schaefer’s >> >> [image: SolarWindFX] >> >> * Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 <585-229-2083> or Cell >> 585-748-1870 <585-748-1870> * >> >> * 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424* >> >> *www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: >> chris at solarandwindfx.com * >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >> willing to work and give to those who would not." >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Kirk Herander >> *Sent:* Saturday, 02 May, 2015 07:22 >> *To:* glenn.burt at glbcc.com; 'RE-wrenches' >> >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar >> >> >> >> John Berdner of Solaredge (still with them??) in a previous discussion on >> this forum has stated that Solaredge can be AC-coupled, with a firmware >> tweak I believe he said. >> >> >> >> *Kirk Herander* >> >> *VT Solar, LLC * >> >> *Proven PV provider since 1991* >> >> *www.vermontsolarnow.com * >> >> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >> >> NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant >> >> VT RE Incentive Program Partner >> >> 802.863.1202 >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >> ] *On Behalf Of *Glenn Burt >> *Sent:* Friday, May 01, 2015 7:47 PM >> *To:* 'RE-wrenches' >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar >> >> >> >> I can tell you that the Solar Edge inverters do not support AC coupling, >> as their reps told me at the NABCEP CE conference… >> >> I have seen pictures of some Solar City battery systems that use an XW as >> the inverter. >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *August Goers >> *Sent:* Friday, May 01, 2015 6:50 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar >> >> >> >> Hi Wrenches, >> >> >> >> I’m sure you’ve seen the Tesla Powerwall press releases by now: >> >> >> >> http://www.teslamotors.com/presskit/teslaenergy >> >> >> >> We are already getting calls from interested homeowners. The product >> mostly seems like a toy for wealthy people but nonetheless I would like to >> be educated in how it works. >> >> >> >> There is mention that the battery pairs with Solar Edge inverters which >> makes sense because both the Powerwall and Solar Edge work off of ~350 >> VDC. But, I can’t figure out how off grid operation would work during >> power outages. Maybe another battery inverter like a Schneider Conext is >> required? >> >> >> >> Any thoughts on this product for better or worse? >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> >> >> August >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 18652 bytes Desc: not available URL: From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Sat May 2 20:07:12 2015 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Sat, 02 May 2015 17:07:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar In-Reply-To: References: <7fc2a1270dc92a5ba825fe82ab411d45@mail.gmail.com> <002101d084ca$2f1e4ec0$8d5aec40$@vtsolar.com> <00a101d084d5$e9d427c0$bd7c7740$@solarandwindfx.com> <5545566F.9020108@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <727867.32282.bm@smtp113.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hey gang. This has been interesting, but let's get the list back to wrenching. Let's move any further discussion to the RE-Marketing list, or the RE-Bitching list. Thanks. From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Sat May 2 22:59:05 2015 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (William Dorsett) Date: Sat, 2 May 2015 21:59:05 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Demand charges for residential In-Reply-To: <7BD9C70E-A709-4C1B-B3F3-E89FEDD45964@gmail.com> References: <7fc2a1270dc92a5ba825fe82ab411d45@mail.gmail.com> <55441081.8359440a.7879.630aSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <7BD9C70E-A709-4C1B-B3F3-E89FEDD45964@gmail.com> Message-ID: <006a01d0854d$1ea218a0$5be649e0$@sbcglobal.net> Jay, residential demand charges are becoming a big thing. The argument as I’m sure you know, is that solar customers aren’t paying their share of the expenses in generation and distribution. So our utility, Westar, has a rate increase before the corporation commission “decoupling” their fixed costs from energy costs. And from that they are proposing to charge new solar customers a high base fee for the use of the grid (~73% of the total bill) and a lower energy charge…plus a demand charge for capacity required for the highest fifteen minutes of use each month. This is becoming common across the US as utilities try to assure their long term rate base. How it plays out for us is that a high fixed charge leaves not much that solar or efficiency can change. A 50% reduction of the 27% left for the energy charge leaves only 13.5% that’s variable. When they add in the demand charge, it kills the investment incentive that solar offers. Now it would be possible to deal with high demand charges in the same ways we used in trying to keep the loads from overloading old and relatively expensive inverters…timers and lockout relays and such to keep large loads from coming on simultaneously. Continuous cat and mouse game with the utilities. Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay Sent: Friday, May 01, 2015 7:06 PM To: glenn.burt at glbcc.com; RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Demand charges for residential Hi all A different question. The tesla sites makes the claim that " often power companies charge for peak rates " My question is where is this happening in the us for residential customers? Thanks Jay. Peltz power. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at ecologicalsystems.biz Sun May 3 07:48:22 2015 From: sky at ecologicalsystems.biz (Sky Sims) Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 07:48:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Demand charges for residential In-Reply-To: <006a01d0854d$1ea218a0$5be649e0$@sbcglobal.net> References: <7fc2a1270dc92a5ba825fe82ab411d45@mail.gmail.com> <55441081.8359440a.7879.630aSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <7BD9C70E-A709-4C1B-B3F3-E89FEDD45964@gmail.com> <006a01d0854d$1ea218a0$5be649e0$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <2F3675EE-FD87-4522-9CAD-CFEFF027F08D@ecologicalsystems.biz> Peak and off peak rates are pretty typical on the east coast. Residential customers usually have to request that they be put on peak off peak billing. The fact that energy and transmission costs are usually substantially lower at night during off peak hours, is one of the reasons why utilities should be paying a higher premium for solar energy. Utilities are getting peak rate power at the point of use from solar facilities, which radically lowers their cost of supplying peak power. And then through net metering they give back cheap off peak power. The deal is currently lopsided in favor of power distribution companies. Srec's and feed in tariffs (FIT) have historically been used to compensate solar facilities for the added value they are providing. But FIT and Srec are best suited for compensating for the more complex (health and environmental) benefits of clean non-polluting energy production. The utility company should be passing through a portion of its distribution cost savings to the solar facility. If the solar energy passes through less than a mile of public grid and coal energy has to pass through 100miles of public grid, the utility company should be compensating that solar facility for the obviously reduced expense. Net metering is a start toward proper compensation, but it does not go far enough. Sky > On May 2, 2015, at 10:59 PM, William Dorsett wrote: > > Jay, residential demand charges are becoming a big thing. The argument as I’m sure you know, is that solar customers aren’t paying their share of the expenses in generation and distribution. So our utility, Westar, has a rate increase before the corporation commission “decoupling” their fixed costs from energy costs. And from that they are proposing to charge new solar customers a high base fee for the use of the grid (~73% of the total bill) and a lower energy charge…plus a demand charge for capacity required for the highest fifteen minutes of use each month. This is becoming common across the US as utilities try to assure their long term rate base. How it plays out for us is that a high fixed charge leaves not much that solar or efficiency can change. A 50% reduction of the 27% left for the energy charge leaves only 13.5% that’s variable. When they add in the demand charge, it kills the investment incentive that solar offers. Now it would be possible to deal with high demand charges in the same ways we used in trying to keep the loads from overloading old and relatively expensive inverters…timers and lockout relays and such to keep large loads from coming on simultaneously. Continuous cat and mouse game with the utilities. > > Bill Dorsett > Manhattan, KS > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay > Sent: Friday, May 01, 2015 7:06 PM > To: glenn.burt at glbcc.com; RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Demand charges for residential > > Hi all > > A different question. The tesla sites makes the claim that " often power companies charge for peak rates " > > My question is where is this happening in the us for residential customers? > > Thanks > > Jay. > Peltz power. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun May 3 10:46:01 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay peltz) Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 07:46:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Demand charges for residential In-Reply-To: <006a01d0854d$1ea218a0$5be649e0$@sbcglobal.net> References: <7fc2a1270dc92a5ba825fe82ab411d45@mail.gmail.com> <55441081.8359440a.7879.630aSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <7BD9C70E-A709-4C1B-B3F3-E89FEDD45964@gmail.com> <006a01d0854d$1ea218a0$5be649e0$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: HI William, Yes thanks for that added information. I didn't realize that the solar demand charges were getting so bad beyond the monthly base rate ( which is bad enough) I reread that part on the website and its a really good bit of marketing as it doesn't specifically talk about solar. Feels like Y2K again. jay peltz power On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 7:59 PM, William Dorsett wrote: > Jay, residential demand charges are becoming a big thing. The argument as > I’m sure you know, is that solar customers aren’t paying their share of the > expenses in generation and distribution. So our utility, Westar, has a rate > increase before the corporation commission “decoupling” their fixed costs > from energy costs. And from that they are proposing to charge new solar > customers a high base fee for the use of the grid (~73% of the total bill) > and a lower energy charge…plus a demand charge for capacity required for > the highest fifteen minutes of use each month. This is becoming common > across the US as utilities try to assure their long term rate base. How it > plays out for us is that a high fixed charge leaves not much that solar or > efficiency can change. A 50% reduction of the 27% left for the energy > charge leaves only 13.5% that’s variable. When they add in the demand > charge, it kills the investment incentive that solar offers. Now it would > be possible to deal with high demand charges in the same ways we used in > trying to keep the loads from overloading old and relatively expensive > inverters…timers and lockout relays and such to keep large loads from > coming on simultaneously. Continuous cat and mouse game with the utilities. > > > > Bill Dorsett > > Manhattan, KS > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jay > *Sent:* Friday, May 01, 2015 7:06 PM > *To:* glenn.burt at glbcc.com; RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Demand charges for residential > > > > Hi all > > > > A different question. The tesla sites makes the claim that " often power > companies charge for peak rates " > > > > My question is where is this happening in the us for residential customers? > > > > Thanks > > > > Jay. > > Peltz power. > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- jay peltz peltz power jay.peltz at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sunmountain at netstep.net Sun May 3 13:24:47 2015 From: sunmountain at netstep.net (Larry Brown) Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 13:24:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar In-Reply-To: <727867.32282.bm@smtp113.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <7fc2a1270dc92a5ba825fe82ab411d45@mail.gmail.com> <002101d084ca$2f1e4ec0$8d5aec40$@vtsolar.com> <00a101d084d5$e9d427c0$bd7c7740$@solarandwindfx.com> <5545566F.9020108@sindelarsolar.com> <727867.32282.bm@smtp113.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2C8898F3-5354-4F15-92CF-F0CD65DE70B9@netstep.net> Michael, How do i access the marketing list? Thanks Larry Larry Brown Sun Mountain On May 2, 2015, at 8:07 PM, Michael Welch wrote: > Hey gang. This has been interesting, but let's get the list back to wrenching. > > Let's move any further discussion to the RE-Marketing list, or the RE-Bitching list. > > Thanks. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Mon May 4 13:10:56 2015 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Mon, 04 May 2015 10:10:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Other list servers you may qualify for In-Reply-To: <2C8898F3-5354-4F15-92CF-F0CD65DE70B9@netstep.net> References: <7fc2a1270dc92a5ba825fe82ab411d45@mail.gmail.com> <002101d084ca$2f1e4ec0$8d5aec40$@vtsolar.com> <00a101d084d5$e9d427c0$bd7c7740$@solarandwindfx.com> <5545566F.9020108@sindelarsolar.com> <727867.32282.bm@smtp113.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <2C8898F3-5354-4F15-92CF-F0CD65DE70B9@netstep.net> Message-ID: <188590.7518.bm@smtp116.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bruce.g at ruralinzone.net Mon May 4 22:00:42 2015 From: bruce.g at ruralinzone.net (Bruce Geddes) Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 14:00:42 +1200 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Other list servers you may qualify for In-Reply-To: <188590.7518.bm@smtp116.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <7fc2a1270dc92a5ba825fe82ab411d45@mail.gmail.com> <002101d084ca$2f1e4ec0$8d5aec40$@vtsolar.com> <00a101d084d5$e9d427c0$bd7c7740$@solarandwindfx.com> <5545566F.9020108@sindelarsolar.com> <727867.32282.bm@smtp113.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <2C8898F3-5354-4F15-92CF-F0CD65DE70B9@netstep.net> <188590.7518.bm@smtp116.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002001d086d7$4d300e30$e7902a90$@ruralinzone.net> Hi Michael, I would like to join the wind list. 4. Home-Wind-Tech This list is strictly for discussing technical and installation-business subjects for the home wind industry. Private archives. If you would like to participate in this wind list, just respond to me off list with the following info: Name: Bruce Geddes Email Address you wish to use for the wind list: bruce.g at ruralinzone.net Company: Freedom Energy Ltd Your profession relative to small-wind: specifier/supplier/installer Your technical level in the industry: 20 years in RE including wind _____ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue May 5 10:36:28 2015 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 08:36:28 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pumping Message-ID: Hello wrenches, I've got an off-grid pumping application question. The scenario is 400' of head, with needs of about 1400-2500 gallons per day. We are trying to pump from a low pond on the property to a high pond on the property, for pressurized water delivery all over the property. I can do a solar direct pump quite easily and serve this need. However, I'm also interested in efficient AC pumping options. He is currently undergoing an remodel and considering upgrading his off-grid equipment and bulking up his system. It may make sense to do an efficient AC pump and put the money saved by going with an AC pump, into his off grid system upgrade. What are some pumps worth looking at for this application? Does anyone know the efficiency of an SQFlex pump operated in AC mode? I can't find it in the literature. Thanks in advance -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solar1online at charter.net Tue May 5 11:35:52 2015 From: solar1online at charter.net (Bill Loesch) Date: Tue, 05 May 2015 10:35:52 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pumping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5548E358.9090300@charter.net> Hi Mac, It has been a while since I kept up with pumping applications; however, the last time I looked, using electronically commutated motors (ECM) offered significant energy savings over other types. My understand is that the voltage tolerances must be tightly controlled to allow the ECM to reach it's design life. Perhaps offerings/ECM technology have improved today? Best wishes, Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 On 05-May-15 9:36 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > Hello wrenches, > > I've got an off-grid pumping application question. The scenario is > 400' of head, with needs of about 1400-2500 gallons per day. We are > trying to pump from a low pond on the property to a high pond on the > property, for pressurized water delivery all over the property. I > can do a solar direct pump quite easily and serve this need. However, > I'm also interested in efficient AC pumping options. > > He is currently undergoing an remodel and considering upgrading his > off-grid equipment and bulking up his system. It may make sense to do > an efficient AC pump and put the money saved by going with an AC pump, > into his off grid system upgrade. > > What are some pumps worth looking at for this application? > Does anyone know the efficiency of an SQFlex pump operated in AC > mode? I can't find it in the literature. > > Thanks in advance > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > * > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > * > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2015.0.5863 / Virus Database: 4342/9701 - Release Date: 05/05/15 > ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5863 / Virus Database: 4342/9701 - Release Date: 05/05/15 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Tue May 5 15:15:58 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 13:15:58 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pumping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004201d08767$eb213e30$c163ba90$@com> My current pump guru is Brian @ AEE phone - 805.242.7856 & they sell Grundfoss, Aquatec, SHURflo, Franklin, & Dankoff. Brian is very well versed on all of the options. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mac Lewis Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 8:36 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pumping Hello wrenches, I've got an off-grid pumping application question. The scenario is 400' of head, with needs of about 1400-2500 gallons per day. We are trying to pump from a low pond on the property to a high pond on the property, for pressurized water delivery all over the property. I can do a solar direct pump quite easily and serve this need. However, I'm also interested in efficient AC pumping options. He is currently undergoing an remodel and considering upgrading his off-grid equipment and bulking up his system. It may make sense to do an efficient AC pump and put the money saved by going with an AC pump, into his off grid system upgrade. What are some pumps worth looking at for this application? Does anyone know the efficiency of an SQFlex pump operated in AC mode? I can't find it in the literature. Thanks in advance -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Wed May 6 17:07:12 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Wed, 06 May 2015 15:07:12 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pumping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <554A8280.4000108@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Wed May 6 22:56:53 2015 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Wed, 6 May 2015 22:56:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 3" Pipe Fittings/Pinning Message-ID: Does anyone have a products/methods they recommend for pinning 3” galve pipe to rock for a ground mount? I have a situation where I am pretty sure pinning will be our best option for some of the posts, but I’m not finding any kee klamp or similar fittings for 3” pipe. Thanks for any thoughts/tips... Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies 4872 State Route 9G Germantown NY, 12526 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dwells at thesolarspecialists.com Thu May 7 09:37:36 2015 From: dwells at thesolarspecialists.com (Doug Wells) Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 09:37:36 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 3" Pipe Fittings/Pinning Message-ID: <842A2F72-FC6D-43B7-9F61-BE38BC0EFA28@thesolarspecialists.com> Adam, We have never pinned the pipe directly. But we have pinned into ledge with a short but wide sono tube. Cold Rolled steel rods through the 3" pipes to lock into the pour. In this case we let pipe condensate drain into small sand bed under the concrete pour. Extremely solid install in windy location on ledge. Doug Wells The Solar Specialists Morrisville, VT 05661 (p) 802-223-7014 (c) 802-498-5856 www.thesolarspecialists.com From reellison at gmail.com Thu May 7 09:59:34 2015 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 09:59:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 3" Pipe Fittings/Pinning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0B65AA96-28DD-4345-AE1E-561C0D14B853@gmail.com> If you know somebody with a well drilling rig and a sense of humor pound a few 6 inch holes in the correct places set the pipe in Cross drilled with rebar in it and set the posts in concrete A big core drill might work also The 6 inch holes give you room to move things around to line them up correctly I have one up here that I may have to do that on luckily I know a guy with a well drilling rig that I have done some favors for in the past Bob Ellison > On May 6, 2015, at 10:56 PM, AE Solar wrote: > > Does anyone have a products/methods they recommend for pinning 3” galve pipe to rock for a ground mount? I have a situation where I am pretty sure pinning will be our best option for some of the posts, but I’m not finding any kee klamp or similar fittings for 3” pipe. Thanks for any thoughts/tips... > > > > > > > Adam Katzman > Autonomous Energies > 4872 State Route 9G > Germantown NY, 12526 > www.autonomousenergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu May 7 09:43:30 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 07:43:30 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 3" Pipe Fittings/Pinning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004201d088cb$ce3039b0$6a90ad10$@com> Welded foot plates with epoxy’d rock anchor bolts. Installed several in a high wind location of a canyon with basic overkill design ideas worked out with structural engineer years back and still stout. We had a center pole with 3 outrigger legs. All 4 points rock drilled and epoxy anchored. __________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 dana at solarwork.com - www.solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 F - 970.626.4140 c - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of AE Solar Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 8:57 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] 3" Pipe Fittings/Pinning Does anyone have a products/methods they recommend for pinning 3” galve pipe to rock for a ground mount? I have a situation where I am pretty sure pinning will be our best option for some of the posts, but I’m not finding any kee klamp or similar fittings for 3” pipe. Thanks for any thoughts/tips... Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies 4872 State Route 9G Germantown NY, 12526 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From starpower4u at juno.com Thu May 7 14:08:21 2015 From: starpower4u at juno.com (Jeff Oldham) Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 18:08:21 GMT Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pumping Message-ID: <20150507.110821.26726.0@webmail03.vgs.untd.com> I would look at the AC options. The money saved over the DC or AC\DC pumps may well purchase the extra PV required for the increase in energy draw. Come winter time that larger array with a much lower pumping load will be most welcome for any OTG system further increasing the value of this option lowering genset run time. With PV so cheap these days the highest efficiency is not always the best option anymore for OTG. >From the Solar, Wind and Hydro powered office of Jeff Oldham/Regenerative SOLutions ____________________________________________________________ High School Yearbooks View Class Yearbooks Online Free. Reminisce & Buy a Reprint Today! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/554baa60101bf2a5f0c85st01vuc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu May 7 15:23:55 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 13:23:55 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pumping In-Reply-To: <20150507.110821.26726.0@webmail03.vgs.untd.com> References: <20150507.110821.26726.0@webmail03.vgs.untd.com> Message-ID: <006801d088fb$5cd69540$1683bfc0$@com> I second that opinion & when you look at flow rates the AC pumps out pump most DC only or AC/DC pumps. I am going the Franklin AC pump way as I move back off grid. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Oldham Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2015 12:08 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Pumping I would look at the AC options. The money saved over the DC or AC\DC pumps may well purchase the extra PV required for the increase in energy draw. Come winter time that larger array with a much lower pumping load will be most welcome for any OTG system further increasing the value of this option lowering genset run time. With PV so cheap these days the highest efficiency is not always the best option anymore for OTG. >From the Solar, Wind and Hydro powered office of Jeff Oldham/Regenerative SOLutions ____________________________________________________________ High School Yearbooks View Class Yearbooks Online Free. Reminisce & Buy a Reprint Today! Classmates.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mick at abrahamsolar.com Sat May 9 14:42:24 2015 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Sat, 9 May 2015 12:42:24 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee Sub Scanner versus Bosch D-Tect versus others? Message-ID: Hello, Mechanix~ "Sub Scanner" was mentioned a couple of seasons back so I wonder if those who "bought in" could "weigh in" with their opinions? My main goal is to scan through composition shingles and find the trusses for anchor points...with no goofs. Also I'd like to find wall studs when scanning through synthetic stucco & exterior rigid foam insulation. Bosch D-Tect 150 is a more costly version in this glorified "stud finder" category; that one seems to have a bigger display and no need for calibration. Could I get user opinions on that? ...and then DeWalt had their version which picked up some bad reviews and I think that was replaced with a new model so now I'm thoroughly confused but looking for installer opinions on these type products. Contact me "off List" if there's an extra scanner-gizmo available for purchase or for lease. Thanks in advance. The Wrench List is the Bomb! Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Voice: 970-731-4675 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com Sun May 10 00:40:44 2015 From: solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com (SES) Date: Sat, 9 May 2015 21:40:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee Sub Scanner versus Bosch D-Tect versus others? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Pleeeeease don't reply offlist. I would kill for a rooftop rafter finder that points to anything but me. Sent from my iPad > On May 9, 2015, at 11:42 AM, Mick Abraham wrote: > > Hello, Mechanix~ > > "Sub Scanner" was mentioned a couple of seasons back so I wonder if those who "bought in" could "weigh in" with their opinions? My main goal is to scan through composition shingles and find the trusses for anchor points...with no goofs. Also I'd like to find wall studs when scanning through synthetic stucco & exterior rigid foam insulation. > > Bosch D-Tect 150 is a more costly version in this glorified "stud finder" category; that one seems to have a bigger display and no need for calibration. Could I get user opinions on that? > > ...and then DeWalt had their version which picked up some bad reviews and I think that was replaced with a new model so now I'm thoroughly confused but looking for installer opinions on these type products. > > Contact me "off List" if there's an extra scanner-gizmo available for purchase or for lease. Thanks in advance. The Wrench List is the Bomb! > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com > > Voice: 970-731-4675 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at solar-energy-solutions.com Sun May 10 09:02:40 2015 From: matt at solar-energy-solutions.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 09:02:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee Sub Scanner versus Bosch D-Tect versus others? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <94d17a5bba69a410182bf7cd4edaf8ea.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> We have tried a number of products. The D-Tect is in amazing stud finder but did very little on shingle roofs. The mechanism by which you run it across a surface is clearly not made for shingles. It is basically a $1000 sculpture on the top shelf in our shop. I am still not aware of any great method for identifying rafters. On Sun, May 10, 2015 12:40 am, SES wrote: > Pleeeeease don't reply offlist. I would kill for a rooftop rafter finder > that points to anything but me. > > Sent from my iPad > > >> On May 9, 2015, at 11:42 AM, Mick Abraham >> wrote: >> >> >> Hello, Mechanix~ >> >> >> "Sub Scanner" was mentioned a couple of seasons back so I wonder if >> those who "bought in" could "weigh in" with their opinions? My main >> goal is to scan through composition shingles and find the trusses for >> anchor points...with no goofs. Also I'd like to find wall studs when >> scanning through synthetic stucco & exterior rigid foam insulation. >> >> Bosch D-Tect 150 is a more costly version in this glorified "stud >> finder" category; that one seems to have a bigger display and no need >> for calibration. Could I get user opinions on that? >> >> ...and then DeWalt had their version which picked up some bad reviews >> and I think that was replaced with a new model so now I'm thoroughly >> confused but looking for installer opinions on these type products. >> >> Contact me "off List" if there's an extra scanner-gizmo available for >> purchase or for lease. Thanks in advance. The Wrench List is the Bomb! >> >> Mick Abraham, Proprietor >> www.abrahamsolar.com >> >> Voice: 970-731-4675 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist. >> html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht > ml > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions LLC (877) 312-7456 matt at solar-energy-solutions.com From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Sun May 10 09:16:51 2015 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 09:16:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee Sub Scanner versus Bosch D-Tect versus others? In-Reply-To: <94d17a5bba69a410182bf7cd4edaf8ea.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> References: <94d17a5bba69a410182bf7cd4edaf8ea.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> Message-ID: If you have access to the rafters, we clamp two welding magnets to the rafter with a woodworkers clamp, and run another over the top. The magnets are setup to repel, so the rafter is the low point between the magnets. On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 9:02 AM, Matt Partymiller < matt at solar-energy-solutions.com> wrote: > We have tried a number of products. The D-Tect is in amazing stud finder > but did very little on shingle roofs. The mechanism by which you run it > across a surface is clearly not made for shingles. It is basically a > $1000 sculpture on the top shelf in our shop. > > I am still not aware of any great method for identifying rafters. > > > On Sun, May 10, 2015 12:40 am, SES wrote: > > Pleeeeease don't reply offlist. I would kill for a rooftop rafter finder > > that points to anything but me. > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > > > >> On May 9, 2015, at 11:42 AM, Mick Abraham > >> wrote: > >> > >> > >> Hello, Mechanix~ > >> > >> > >> "Sub Scanner" was mentioned a couple of seasons back so I wonder if > >> those who "bought in" could "weigh in" with their opinions? My main > >> goal is to scan through composition shingles and find the trusses for > >> anchor points...with no goofs. Also I'd like to find wall studs when > >> scanning through synthetic stucco & exterior rigid foam insulation. > >> > >> Bosch D-Tect 150 is a more costly version in this glorified "stud > >> finder" category; that one seems to have a bigger display and no need > >> for calibration. Could I get user opinions on that? > >> > >> ...and then DeWalt had their version which picked up some bad reviews > >> and I think that was replaced with a new model so now I'm thoroughly > >> confused but looking for installer opinions on these type products. > >> > >> Contact me "off List" if there's an extra scanner-gizmo available for > >> purchase or for lease. Thanks in advance. The Wrench List is the Bomb! > >> > >> Mick Abraham, Proprietor > >> www.abrahamsolar.com > >> > >> Voice: 970-731-4675 > >> _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> > >> List-Archive: > >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist. > >> html > >> > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > > > List-Archive: > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht > > ml > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > Matthew Partymiller > Solar Energy Solutions LLC > (877) 312-7456 > matt at solar-energy-solutions.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Sun May 10 13:36:28 2015 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 10:36:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee Sub Scanner versus Bosch D-Tect versus others? In-Reply-To: <94d17a5bba69a410182bf7cd4edaf8ea.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> References: <94d17a5bba69a410182bf7cd4edaf8ea.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> Message-ID: <554F971C.9050907@berkeleysolar.com> Indeed. I am sad to say that I have the same sculpture on a shelf around here somewhere. The trouble is that all the nails used to tack down the shingles interfere. The same happens with a flat roof with the first layer of tar paper tacked down. On one flat roof job I was able to get good confidence on the rafter location by doing many many passes in order to develop a kind of night sky of markings where the rafter showed up as the milky way. Haven't used the D-Tect since. Mark Frye On 5/10/2015 6:02 AM, Matt Partymiller wrote: > We have tried a number of products. The D-Tect is in amazing stud finder > but did very little on shingle roofs. The mechanism by which you run it > across a surface is clearly not made for shingles. It is basically a > $1000 sculpture on the top shelf in our shop. > > I am still not aware of any great method for identifying rafters. > > > On Sun, May 10, 2015 12:40 am, SES wrote: >> Pleeeeease don't reply offlist. I would kill for a rooftop rafter finder >> that points to anything but me. >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> >>> On May 9, 2015, at 11:42 AM, Mick Abraham >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hello, Mechanix~ >>> >>> >>> "Sub Scanner" was mentioned a couple of seasons back so I wonder if >>> those who "bought in" could "weigh in" with their opinions? My main >>> goal is to scan through composition shingles and find the trusses for >>> anchor points...with no goofs. Also I'd like to find wall studs when >>> scanning through synthetic stucco & exterior rigid foam insulation. >>> >>> Bosch D-Tect 150 is a more costly version in this glorified "stud >>> finder" category; that one seems to have a bigger display and no need >>> for calibration. Could I get user opinions on that? >>> >>> ...and then DeWalt had their version which picked up some bad reviews >>> and I think that was replaced with a new model so now I'm thoroughly >>> confused but looking for installer opinions on these type products. >>> >>> Contact me "off List" if there's an extra scanner-gizmo available for >>> purchase or for lease. Thanks in advance. The Wrench List is the Bomb! >>> >>> Mick Abraham, Proprietor >>> www.abrahamsolar.com >>> >>> Voice: 970-731-4675 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist. >>> html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht >> ml >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > Matthew Partymiller > Solar Energy Solutions LLC > (877) 312-7456 > matt at solar-energy-solutions.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From william at millersolar.com Sun May 10 14:16:20 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (william at millersolar.com) Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 11:16:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee Sub Scanner versus Bosch D-Tect versus others? In-Reply-To: <554F971C.9050907@berkeleysolar.com> References: <94d17a5bba69a410182bf7cd4edaf8ea.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> <554F971C.9050907@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: <261701d08b4d$6a467750$3ed365f0$@millersolar.com> Friends: Below are images of the high-tech rafter detectors we use. If you need directions, contact me off list. William -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image005.png Type: image/png Size: 14541 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1281 bytes Desc: not available URL: From frenergy at psln.com Sun May 10 20:14:43 2015 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 17:14:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee Sub Scanner versus Bosch D-Tect versusothers? References: <94d17a5bba69a410182bf7cd4edaf8ea.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com><554F971C.9050907@berkeleysolar.com> <261701d08b4d$6a467750$3ed365f0$@millersolar.com> Message-ID: <75712E12E26A45529A77DFC090D4E69E@D8XG8YH1> I wasn't going to say anything but I have to now say "right-on". I only saw one image (hammer) in your email, William, so maybe the other image is the other high-tech tool we use...a fist. If its one comp roof layer, this method is very accurate, maybe because I've used it so many times over the 35+ years I've worked on roofs and developed "the touch". If you have more than one layer of comp it gets more and more difficult to pin point the buggers. And yes, Mark, flat roofs are a real challenge. It would still be nice to hear from someone who has found the scanner that works on the difficult-to-find -rafter roofs. Bill Feather River Solar Electric ----- Original Message ----- From: william at millersolar.com To: 'RE-wrenches' Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2015 11:16 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee Sub Scanner versus Bosch D-Tect versusothers? Friends: Below are images of the high-tech rafter detectors we use. If you need directions, contact me off list. William ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image005.png Type: image/png Size: 14541 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1281 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Sun May 10 17:39:24 2015 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (William Dorsett) Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 16:39:24 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee Sub Scanner versus Bosch D-Tect versus others? In-Reply-To: References: <94d17a5bba69a410182bf7cd4edaf8ea.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> Message-ID: <014b01d08b69$c95210d0$5bf63270$@sbcglobal.net> Chris, that is very clever. If there is access to the rafters, I’ve always measured down from the ridge to where I want the top l-leg, and angled up from the edge of the rafter to where I guess the center of the rafter will be. And then redrill a pilot hole straight down from the top through the exit hole. Cathedral ceilings are another thing. Welding magnets would be good there to find drywall screws. Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Mason Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2015 8:17 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee Sub Scanner versus Bosch D-Tect versus others? If you have access to the rafters, we clamp two welding magnets to the rafter with a woodworkers clamp, and run another over the top. The magnets are setup to repel, so the rafter is the low point between the magnets. On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 9:02 AM, Matt Partymiller wrote: We have tried a number of products. The D-Tect is in amazing stud finder but did very little on shingle roofs. The mechanism by which you run it across a surface is clearly not made for shingles. It is basically a $1000 sculpture on the top shelf in our shop. I am still not aware of any great method for identifying rafters. On Sun, May 10, 2015 12:40 am, SES wrote: > Pleeeeease don't reply offlist. I would kill for a rooftop rafter finder > that points to anything but me. > > Sent from my iPad > > >> On May 9, 2015, at 11:42 AM, Mick Abraham >> wrote: >> >> >> Hello, Mechanix~ >> >> >> "Sub Scanner" was mentioned a couple of seasons back so I wonder if >> those who "bought in" could "weigh in" with their opinions? My main >> goal is to scan through composition shingles and find the trusses for >> anchor points...with no goofs. Also I'd like to find wall studs when >> scanning through synthetic stucco & exterior rigid foam insulation. >> >> Bosch D-Tect 150 is a more costly version in this glorified "stud >> finder" category; that one seems to have a bigger display and no need >> for calibration. Could I get user opinions on that? >> >> ...and then DeWalt had their version which picked up some bad reviews >> and I think that was replaced with a new model so now I'm thoroughly >> confused but looking for installer opinions on these type products. >> >> Contact me "off List" if there's an extra scanner-gizmo available for >> purchase or for lease. Thanks in advance. The Wrench List is the Bomb! >> >> Mick Abraham, Proprietor >> www.abrahamsolar.com >> >> Voice: 970-731-4675 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist. >> html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht > ml > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions LLC (877) 312-7456 matt at solar-energy-solutions.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Sun May 10 21:24:53 2015 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (Michael Nelson) Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 18:24:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee Sub Scanner versus Bosch D-Tect versusothers? In-Reply-To: <75712E12E26A45529A77DFC090D4E69E@D8XG8YH1> References: <94d17a5bba69a410182bf7cd4edaf8ea.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> <554F971C.9050907@berkeleysolar.com> <261701d08b4d$6a467750$3ed365f0$@millersolar.com> <75712E12E26A45529A77DFC090D4E69E@D8XG8YH1> Message-ID: <4C5750B8-143A-4A86-A654-865FE0B8208D@gmail.com> Maybe a flir? Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com > On May 10, 2015, at 5:14 PM, frenergy wrote: > > I wasn't going to say anything but I have to now say "right-on". I only saw one image (hammer) in your email, William, so maybe the other image is the other high-tech tool we use...a fist. > > If its one comp roof layer, this method is very accurate, maybe because I've used it so many times over the 35+ years I've worked on roofs and developed "the touch". If you have more than one layer of comp it gets more and more difficult to pin point the buggers. And yes, Mark, flat roofs are a real challenge. > > It would still be nice to hear from someone who has found the scanner that works on the difficult-to-find -rafter roofs. > > Bill > Feather River Solar Electric > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: william at millersolar.com > To: 'RE-wrenches' > Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2015 11:16 AM > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee Sub Scanner versus Bosch D-Tect versusothers? > > Friends: > > Below are images of the high-tech rafter detectors we use. > > > > > If you need directions, contact me off list. > > William > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1281 bytes Desc: not available URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Sun May 10 22:58:52 2015 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 20:58:52 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ice on array Message-ID: Hello I have a client who has experienced this twice now. After a snow storm, two of his arrays, when brushing snow from, will clear very easy. The third, which is of similar age as one that sheds well, gets ice underneath the snow and is not cleaned as easily..... Any ideas? Jeremy Rodriguez All Solar, Inc. 1463 M Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! From william at millersolar.com Mon May 11 11:49:21 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 08:49:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee Sub Scanner versus Bosch D-Tect versusothers? In-Reply-To: <75712E12E26A45529A77DFC090D4E69E@D8XG8YH1> References: <94d17a5bba69a410182bf7cd4edaf8ea.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> <554F971C.9050907@berkeleysolar.com> <261701d08b4d$6a467750$3ed365f0$@millersolar.com> <75712E12E26A45529A77DFC090D4E69E@D8XG8YH1> Message-ID: <19399B04-7D63-41DF-8A82-2942E8E3A0F4@millersolar.com> Bill: The other image is a garden variety landscape flag. Bend a 45 in the lower end and stick it through your pilot hole. Spin it and when the end touches the side of a rafter you will know exactly where the rafter is. Circle your pilot hole with a lumber crayon so you don't forget to patch it. Hopefully the pilot hole will lie under your flashing. If you do need to go into the attic for blocking, roll up the flag and stick that end through the hole. It will unfurl in the attic making it easy to find your location. William > On May 10, 2015, at 5:14 PM, frenergy wrote: > > I wasn't going to say anything but I have to now say "right-on". I only saw one image (hammer) in your email, William, so maybe the other image is the other high-tech tool we use...a fist. > > If its one comp roof layer, this method is very accurate, maybe because I've used it so many times over the 35+ years I've worked on roofs and developed "the touch". If you have more than one layer of comp it gets more and more difficult to pin point the buggers. And yes, Mark, flat roofs are a real challenge. > > It would still be nice to hear from someone who has found the scanner that works on the difficult-to-find -rafter roofs. > > Bill > Feather River Solar Electric > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: william at millersolar.com > To: 'RE-wrenches' > Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2015 11:16 AM > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee Sub Scanner versus Bosch D-Tect versusothers? > > Friends: > > Below are images of the high-tech rafter detectors we use. > > > > > If you need directions, contact me off list. > > William > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image005.png Type: image/png Size: 14541 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1281 bytes Desc: not available URL: From august at luminalt.com Mon May 11 15:45:31 2015 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 12:45:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee Sub Scanner versus Bosch D-Tect versus others? In-Reply-To: <94d17a5bba69a410182bf7cd4edaf8ea.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> References: <94d17a5bba69a410182bf7cd4edaf8ea.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> Message-ID: <05aa8024c03543b8329c4489511298e4@mail.gmail.com> Wrenches, We have a Bosch D-tect 100 and Milwaukee M12 sub-scanner. The Milwaukee is one of the most worthless stud finders I have ever used. It might be helpful for scanning concrete but is basically useless for any other scanning task that I've tried. It definitely won't work on a roof. The D-tect has been helpful for rooftop use over the years. It is also helpful for scanning concrete to find rebar and post-tension cables. Although I can't say that it should be relied on to find post-tension cables (that is a big liability)! In order to use the D-tect on the roof you have a use a thin piece of cardboard (like a manila folder) or a thin flexible cutting board to get it to roll properly. It is not easy and takes quite a bit of finesse. It has, however, been able to find rafters in difficult cases where hammers and other tricks aren't working well. There is no question that it is difficult to use on comp shingle or other bumpy roofs and I've found that most of our installers give up before getting any benefit. The bottom line is that the old fashioned hammer and measuring up from below is the best way to reliably find rafters. You might find an occasional roof where the D-tect will help but for the most part it is more finicky than it is worth on a roof. Has anyone tried using an infrared camera to see rafters in the morning when there might be a temperature differential? I've been wanting to give that a try but haven't yet. Best, August -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Matt Partymiller Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2015 6:03 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee Sub Scanner versus Bosch D-Tect versus others? We have tried a number of products. The D-Tect is in amazing stud finder but did very little on shingle roofs. The mechanism by which you run it across a surface is clearly not made for shingles. It is basically a $1000 sculpture on the top shelf in our shop. I am still not aware of any great method for identifying rafters. On Sun, May 10, 2015 12:40 am, SES wrote: > Pleeeeease don't reply offlist. I would kill for a rooftop rafter > finder that points to anything but me. > > Sent from my iPad > > >> On May 9, 2015, at 11:42 AM, Mick Abraham >> wrote: >> >> >> Hello, Mechanix~ >> >> >> "Sub Scanner" was mentioned a couple of seasons back so I wonder if >> those who "bought in" could "weigh in" with their opinions? My main >> goal is to scan through composition shingles and find the trusses for >> anchor points...with no goofs. Also I'd like to find wall studs when >> scanning through synthetic stucco & exterior rigid foam insulation. >> >> Bosch D-Tect 150 is a more costly version in this glorified "stud >> finder" category; that one seems to have a bigger display and no need >> for calibration. Could I get user opinions on that? >> >> ...and then DeWalt had their version which picked up some bad reviews >> and I think that was replaced with a new model so now I'm thoroughly >> confused but looking for installer opinions on these type products. >> >> Contact me "off List" if there's an extra scanner-gizmo available for >> purchase or for lease. Thanks in advance. The Wrench List is the Bomb! >> >> Mick Abraham, Proprietor >> www.abrahamsolar.com >> >> Voice: 970-731-4675 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist. >> html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .ht > ml > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions LLC (877) 312-7456 matt at solar-energy-solutions.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htm l List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From David.Opalinsky at sunpower.com Tue May 12 12:11:03 2015 From: David.Opalinsky at sunpower.com (Isaac Opalinsky) Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 16:11:03 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee Sub Scanner versus Bosch D-Tect versus others? In-Reply-To: <05aa8024c03543b8329c4489511298e4@mail.gmail.com> References: <94d17a5bba69a410182bf7cd4edaf8ea.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> <05aa8024c03543b8329c4489511298e4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: August, Taken today using Seek Thermal for Android. $249 list. 11:15 AM, light overcast sky, ~80 ambient temp. Architectural composition shingles on 15/32" OSB (and some plywood stitched in); 2x4 rafters. Insulated ceilings (not rafters). Definitely takes some practice to get the color scale correct, and really, you should have a partner so you can mark the rafters in real time by pointing to them in the IR image. I've never had a chance to attempt the same procedure on tongue-in-groove, with timber frame, through SIP's, or in a cathedral ceiling. Basically, this is an example of a really fancy, expensive tool working just as well as a hammer on this roof. I too would like to hear of anyone using IR on a more challenging roof. Isaac Opalinsky | Technical Trainer | SunPower Corporation -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers Sent: Monday, May 11, 2015 3:46 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee Sub Scanner versus Bosch D-Tect versus others? Wrenches, We have a Bosch D-tect 100 and Milwaukee M12 sub-scanner. The Milwaukee is one of the most worthless stud finders I have ever used. It might be helpful for scanning concrete but is basically useless for any other scanning task that I've tried. It definitely won't work on a roof. The D-tect has been helpful for rooftop use over the years. It is also helpful for scanning concrete to find rebar and post-tension cables. Although I can't say that it should be relied on to find post-tension cables (that is a big liability)! In order to use the D-tect on the roof you have a use a thin piece of cardboard (like a manila folder) or a thin flexible cutting board to get it to roll properly. It is not easy and takes quite a bit of finesse. It has, however, been able to find rafters in difficult cases where hammers and other tricks aren't working well. There is no question that it is difficult to use on comp shingle or other bumpy roofs and I've found that most of our installers give up before getting any benefit. The bottom line is that the old fashioned hammer and measuring up from below is the best way to reliably find rafters. You might find an occasional roof where the D-tect will help but for the most part it is more finicky than it is worth on a roof. Has anyone tried using an infrared camera to see rafters in the morning when there might be a temperature differential? I've been wanting to give that a try but haven't yet. Best, August -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Matt Partymiller Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2015 6:03 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee Sub Scanner versus Bosch D-Tect versus others? We have tried a number of products. The D-Tect is in amazing stud finder but did very little on shingle roofs. The mechanism by which you run it across a surface is clearly not made for shingles. It is basically a $1000 sculpture on the top shelf in our shop. I am still not aware of any great method for identifying rafters. On Sun, May 10, 2015 12:40 am, SES wrote: > Pleeeeease don't reply offlist. I would kill for a rooftop rafter > finder that points to anything but me. > > Sent from my iPad > > >> On May 9, 2015, at 11:42 AM, Mick Abraham >> wrote: >> >> >> Hello, Mechanix~ >> >> >> "Sub Scanner" was mentioned a couple of seasons back so I wonder if >> those who "bought in" could "weigh in" with their opinions? My main >> goal is to scan through composition shingles and find the trusses for >> anchor points...with no goofs. Also I'd like to find wall studs when >> scanning through synthetic stucco & exterior rigid foam insulation. >> >> Bosch D-Tect 150 is a more costly version in this glorified "stud >> finder" category; that one seems to have a bigger display and no need >> for calibration. Could I get user opinions on that? >> >> ...and then DeWalt had their version which picked up some bad reviews >> and I think that was replaced with a new model so now I'm thoroughly >> confused but looking for installer opinions on these type products. >> >> Contact me "off List" if there's an extra scanner-gizmo available for >> purchase or for lease. Thanks in advance. The Wrench List is the Bomb! >> >> Mick Abraham, Proprietor >> www.abrahamsolar.com >> >> Voice: 970-731-4675 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist. >> html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .ht > ml > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions LLC (877) 312-7456 matt at solar-energy-solutions.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htm l List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: img_thermal_1431445226616.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 289785 bytes Desc: img_thermal_1431445226616.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: img_thermal_1431445336858.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 332700 bytes Desc: img_thermal_1431445336858.jpg URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Wed May 13 09:14:10 2015 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 07:14:10 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Photowatt Modules Message-ID: Does anyone know of any Photowatt PWX 12-24v mods? I need one. I know it's a long shot. Thanks. Jeremy Rodriguez All Solar, Inc. 1463 M Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! From chris at solarwindworks.com Wed May 13 14:44:24 2015 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 11:44:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Evergreen ES A 210 Message-ID: <029d01d08dac$d5c911c0$815b3540$@solarwindworks.com> If you have any Evergreen ES A 210's available please let me know off list, thanks! I have a client with a broken module, and he'd like to add another string of 6 too, wish list, right! Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP Certified PV Installer Office 530-582-4503 Cell 530-448-9692 Fax 530-582-4603 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Wed May 13 15:36:35 2015 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 15:36:35 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Working Space Message-ID: Hey Wrenches, We are installing some inverters in a basement where the height we hang them at is limited by some windows. I'm trying to find a code reference that says how far off the ground the DC/AC disco on the inverter needs to be but am not finding one. Could be that they are in the 3' range. Not ideal but might be our best option. Anyone know where I could look up compliance? Thanks Adam Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies 4872 State Route 9G Germantown NY, 12526 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed May 13 15:42:50 2015 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 12:42:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Working Space In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <25f5671bfd91d0844bac48c74ee665e9@mail.gmail.com> Hi Adam, To the best of my knowledge there is no minimum height specified in the NEC. However, many inverter manufacturers specify a minimum height. You’ll need refer to the manual for that. Best, August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *AE Solar *Sent:* Wednesday, May 13, 2015 12:37 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Working Space Hey Wrenches, We are installing some inverters in a basement where the height we hang them at is limited by some windows. I'm trying to find a code reference that says how far off the ground the DC/AC disco on the inverter needs to be but am not finding one. Could be that they are in the 3' range. Not ideal but might be our best option. Anyone know where I could look up compliance? Thanks Adam Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies 4872 State Route 9G Germantown NY, 12526 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Wed May 13 15:47:43 2015 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 15:47:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Working Space In-Reply-To: <25f5671bfd91d0844bac48c74ee665e9@mail.gmail.com> References: <25f5671bfd91d0844bac48c74ee665e9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Great thanks. SMA says 36" to the bottom of the disco so will go with that. On Wednesday, May 13, 2015, August Goers wrote: > Hi Adam, > > > > To the best of my knowledge there is no minimum height specified in the > NEC. However, many inverter manufacturers specify a minimum height. You’ll > need refer to the manual for that. > > > > Best, August > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] > *On Behalf Of *AE Solar > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 13, 2015 12:37 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Working Space > > > > Hey Wrenches, > > We are installing some inverters in a basement where the height we hang > them at is limited by some windows. I'm trying to find a code reference > that says how far off the ground the DC/AC disco on the inverter needs to > be but am not finding one. Could be that they are in the 3' range. Not > ideal but might be our best option. Anyone know where I could look up > compliance? > > Thanks > > Adam > > > > Adam Katzman > Autonomous Energies > 4872 State Route 9G > Germantown NY, 12526 > www.autonomousenergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > -- Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies 4872 State Route 9G Germantown NY, 12526 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daveclick at fsec.ucf.edu Wed May 13 16:08:58 2015 From: daveclick at fsec.ucf.edu (Dave Click) Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 16:08:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Working Space In-Reply-To: References: <25f5671bfd91d0844bac48c74ee665e9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5553AF5A.7040908@fsec.ucf.edu> I learned in a Xantrex GT training (way back) that their 36" bottom clearance requirement was to avoid [most] lawn sprinklers, so that may be the case here too. I'd still plan for it to be high enough to avoid any basement flooding and to remain easy to access. May be worth discussing with SMA ahead of time in case the AHJ complains about it during the field inspection. Dave On 2015/5/13 15:47, AE Solar wrote: > Great thanks. SMA says 36" to the bottom of the disco so will go with > that. > > On Wednesday, May 13, 2015, August Goers > wrote: > > Hi Adam, > > To the best of my knowledge there is no minimum height specified > in the NEC. However, many inverter manufacturers specify a minimum > height. You’ll need refer to the manual for that. > > Best, August > > *From:*RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] > *On Behalf Of *AE Solar > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 13, 2015 12:37 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Working Space > > Hey Wrenches, > > We are installing some inverters in a basement where the height we > hang them at is limited by some windows. I'm trying to find a code > reference that says how far off the ground the DC/AC disco on the > inverter needs to be but am not finding one. Could be that they > are in the 3' range. Not ideal but might be our best option. > Anyone know where I could look up compliance? > > Thanks > > Adam > > Adam Katzman > Autonomous Energies > 4872 State Route 9G > Germantown NY, 12526 > www.autonomousenergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > > > -- > Adam Katzman > Autonomous Energies > 4872 State Route 9G > Germantown NY, 12526 > www.autonomousenergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Steve.Jefferson at sma-america.com Wed May 13 16:38:36 2015 From: Steve.Jefferson at sma-america.com (Steve Jefferson) Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 20:38:36 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Working Space In-Reply-To: References: <25f5671bfd91d0844bac48c74ee665e9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <41FE255D65D554478C3B17F3EB5410EF91352D8E@SVR-US-EXMBX-01.sma.de> From our manual (available free for download and viewing on our website) “If the inverter is mounted outdoors, the clearance between the DC Disconnect and the floor must be 3 ft. (914 mm). This prevents the ingress of splashing water into the DC Disconnect.” And “The mounting location must not be exposed to direct sources of water spray such as sprinklers or gutters.” SMA America, LLC Steve Jefferson Service Line Supervisor 3925 Atherton Ave Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714 U.S.A. Tel: +1 916 625 3185 (direct) Fax: +1 916 625 0871 Mobile: +1 916 622 4253 Email: Steve.jefferson at SMA-America.com www.SMA-America.com [cid:image001.png at 01CF1CFA.FE18BEB0] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of AE Solar Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 12:48 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Working Space Great thanks. SMA says 36" to the bottom of the disco so will go with that. On Wednesday, May 13, 2015, August Goers > wrote: Hi Adam, To the best of my knowledge there is no minimum height specified in the NEC. However, many inverter manufacturers specify a minimum height. You’ll need refer to the manual for that. Best, August From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of AE Solar Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 12:37 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Working Space Hey Wrenches, We are installing some inverters in a basement where the height we hang them at is limited by some windows. I'm trying to find a code reference that says how far off the ground the DC/AC disco on the inverter needs to be but am not finding one. Could be that they are in the 3' range. Not ideal but might be our best option. Anyone know where I could look up compliance? Thanks Adam Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies 4872 State Route 9G Germantown NY, 12526 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -- Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies 4872 State Route 9G Germantown NY, 12526 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 30736 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: From Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Wed May 13 16:21:17 2015 From: Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com (Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com) Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 16:21:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Working Space In-Reply-To: <5553AF5A.7040908@fsec.ucf.edu> References: <25f5671bfd91d0844bac48c74ee665e9@mail.gmail.com> <5553AF5A.7040908@fsec.ucf.edu> Message-ID: Hi: Back in the day when I was giving the Xantrex training for the GT, I was informed by our regulatory folks that we will base the 36" height on an interpretation of the electrical code whereby the switch is considered to be the same as any other electrical wall switch or outdoor receptacle. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Dave Click To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 05/13/2015 01:09 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Working Space Sent by: "RE-wrenches" I learned in a Xantrex GT training (way back) that their 36" bottom clearance requirement was to avoid [most] lawn sprinklers, so that may be the case here too. I'd still plan for it to be high enough to avoid any basement flooding and to remain easy to access. May be worth discussing with SMA ahead of time in case the AHJ complains about it during the field inspection. Dave On 2015/5/13 15:47, AE Solar wrote: Great thanks. SMA says 36" to the bottom of the disco so will go with that. On Wednesday, May 13, 2015, August Goers wrote: Hi Adam, To the best of my knowledge there is no minimum height specified in the NEC. However, many inverter manufacturers specify a minimum height. You’ll need refer to the manual for that. Best, August From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of AE Solar Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 12:37 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Working Space Hey Wrenches, We are installing some inverters in a basement where the height we hang them at is limited by some windows. I'm trying to find a code reference that says how far off the ground the DC/AC disco on the inverter needs to be but am not finding one. Could be that they are in the 3' range. Not ideal but might be our best option. Anyone know where I could look up compliance? Thanks Adam Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies 4872 State Route 9G Germantown NY, 12526 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -- Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies 4872 State Route 9G Germantown NY, 12526 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dana at solarwork.com Wed May 13 16:18:30 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 14:18:30 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Working Space In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01ec01d08db9$fb5c22d0$f2146870$@com> I have been told by more than AHJ here (and that is the best person to ask is your AHJ): “6’- 8” to the highest and as long as the floor will not flood it could rest on the floor.” ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of AE Solar Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 1:37 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Working Space Hey Wrenches, We are installing some inverters in a basement where the height we hang them at is limited by some windows. I'm trying to find a code reference that says how far off the ground the DC/AC disco on the inverter needs to be but am not finding one. Could be that they are in the 3' range. Not ideal but might be our best option. Anyone know where I could look up compliance? Thanks Adam Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies 4872 State Route 9G Germantown NY, 12526 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed May 13 16:53:29 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 10:53:29 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Working Space In-Reply-To: <01ec01d08db9$fb5c22d0$f2146870$@com> References: <01ec01d08db9$fb5c22d0$f2146870$@com> Message-ID: Looking at risk analysis around safe working conditions, we will not install any servicable components below 36" this includes gutters. All servicable components aldo must have at least 36" clear working space in front of the item not the wall behind it. Refer to NFPA 70E for arc safety specs. that do apply Jerry On May 13, 2015 10:44 AM, "Dana" wrote: > I have been told by more than AHJ here (and that is the best person to ask > is your AHJ): “6’- 8” to the highest and as long as the floor will not > flood it could rest on the floor.” > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel > > Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 > > E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com > > O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 > > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *AE Solar > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 13, 2015 1:37 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Working Space > > > > Hey Wrenches, > > We are installing some inverters in a basement where the height we hang > them at is limited by some windows. I'm trying to find a code reference > that says how far off the ground the DC/AC disco on the inverter needs to > be but am not finding one. Could be that they are in the 3' range. Not > ideal but might be our best option. Anyone know where I could look up > compliance? > > Thanks > > Adam > > > > Adam Katzman > Autonomous Energies > 4872 State Route 9G > Germantown NY, 12526 > www.autonomousenergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu May 14 19:12:00 2015 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 19:12:00 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex C-40 Drifting Message-ID: <20150514231203.E98433DC05B@homiemail-a92.g.dreamhost.com> I have a Xantrex C-40 that won't keep its settings. It is important that it does because it is for a maintainer array (80 W) on an AGM battery bank, on an AC coupled backup system. Not only could high voltage damage the batteries, but when the voltage goes over 30 Volts, the AUX relay opens and the grid tie inverter is isolated from the grid. After numerous sessions of reprogramming, Xantrex tech support sent me a new unit. The problem persisted as before. A new temperature sensor helped, but the settings still drift. It seems that rebooting the charge controller helps for a day or so, but then it drifts again. The potentiometer settings are way below the calculated setting for 29.4 V, but it still peaks in the high 30s. I check the temperature compensated voltages on the Outback Mate, and the temp compensated voltage runs high. In a related side issue, the AUX relay of the FX inverters is not based on temperature compensated voltage, which makes setting AC coupling charge set points more problematic. Has anyone experienced a C-40 CC that drifts in its settings. What would be a good (inexpensive) charge controller to accurately control 80 W of PV? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Fri May 15 01:06:14 2015 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 22:06:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex C-40 Drifting Message-ID: We have lots of C40's out there, though not generally with such small PV input, don't recall any issues with drifting. I just installed one and verifying the potentiometer settings with DVM was bang on. For a recommended substitute, consider the Blue Sky units such as: http://www.blueskyenergyinc.com/products/details/solar_boost_1524ix We use in lots of industrial telemetry sites with similar configs - small PV with AGM batts. Solid performing controller with a bonus of some datalogging. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of Drake Sent: May 14, 2015 4:12 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex C-40 Drifting I have a Xantrex C-40 that won't keep its settings. It is important that it does because it is for a maintainer array (80 W) on an AGM battery bank, on an AC coupled backup system. Not only could high voltage damage the batteries, but when the voltage goes over 30 Volts, the AUX relay opens and the grid tie inverter is isolated from the grid. After numerous sessions of reprogramming, Xantrex tech support sent me a new unit. The problem persisted as before. A new temperature sensor helped, but the settings still drift. It seems that rebooting the charge controller helps for a day or so, but then it drifts again. The potentiometer settings are way below the calculated setting for 29.4 V, but it still peaks in the high 30s. I check the temperature compensated voltages on the Outback Mate, and the temp compensated voltage runs high. In a related side issue, the AUX relay of the FX inverters is not based on temperature compensated voltage, which makes setting AC coupling charge set points more problematic. Has anyone experienced a C-40 CC that drifts in its settings. What would be a good (inexpensive) charge controller to accurately control 80 W of PV? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Fri May 15 00:25:10 2015 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 21:25:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC conduit References: <20150514231203.E98433DC05B@homiemail-a92.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Esteemed Wrenches, One of my customers (who is also an Electrical contractor) asked me why metal conduit is required from the combiner to the inverter. In this case the DC run will go under the house in the crawl space before exiting the foundation and up to the DC disco on the inverter. With inverters that incorporate AFCI on the PV side, I couldn't come up with a good answer. Bill Battagin Feather River Solar Electric 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 / 6544 fax -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri May 15 06:43:37 2015 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Fri, 15 May 2015 06:43:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC conduit In-Reply-To: References: <20150514231203.E98433DC05B@homiemail-a92.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <20150515104353.16E9E100CE@che.dreamhost.com> Take a look at 690.31(G) - 2014 NEC. Sincerely, Glenn Burt Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. -----Original Message----- From: "frenergy" Sent: ‎5/‎15/‎2015 0:25 To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC conduit Esteemed Wrenches, One of my customers (who is also an Electrical contractor) asked me why metal conduit is required from the combiner to the inverter. In this case the DC run will go under the house in the crawl space before exiting the foundation and up to the DC disco on the inverter. With inverters that incorporate AFCI on the PV side, I couldn't come up with a good answer. Bill Battagin Feather River Solar Electric 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 / 6544 fax -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri May 15 09:30:10 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay peltz) Date: Fri, 15 May 2015 07:30:10 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex C-40 Drifting In-Reply-To: <20150514231203.E98433DC05B@homiemail-a92.g.dreamhost.com> References: <20150514231203.E98433DC05B@homiemail-a92.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: HI Drake, Iv'e never seen this happen. But have you considered a small morningstar or similar? A question, you list 29.4v, that seems high? jay On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 5:12 PM, Drake wrote: > I have a Xantrex C-40 that won't keep its settings. It is important that > it does because it is for a maintainer array (80 W) on an AGM battery bank, > on an AC coupled backup system. Not only could high voltage damage the > batteries, but when the voltage goes over 30 Volts, the AUX relay opens and > the grid tie inverter is isolated from the grid. > > After numerous sessions of reprogramming, Xantrex tech support sent me a > new unit. The problem persisted as before. A new temperature sensor helped, > but the settings still drift. It seems that rebooting the charge controller > helps for a day or so, but then it drifts again. > > The potentiometer settings are way below the calculated setting for 29.4 > V, but it still peaks in the high 30s. I check the temperature compensated > voltages on the Outback Mate, and the temp compensated voltage runs high. > > In a related side issue, the AUX relay of the FX inverters is not based on > temperature compensated voltage, which makes setting AC coupling charge set > points more problematic. > > Has anyone experienced a C-40 CC that drifts in its settings. What would > be a good (inexpensive) charge controller to accurately control 80 W of PV? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > -- Jay Peltz Peltz Power jay.peltz at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri May 15 10:09:53 2015 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Fri, 15 May 2015 10:09:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex C-40 Drifting In-Reply-To: References: <20150514231203.E98433DC05B@homiemail-a92.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <20150515140958.A0EC628205F@homiemail-a82.g.dreamhost.com> I was thinking of a Blue Sky or a Morning Star replacement. The Full River AGM L-16 batteries recommend a 29.4 absorption, very high for a maintenance free battery. I've triple checked this one. At 09:30 AM 5/15/2015, you wrote: >HI Drake, > >Iv'e never seen this happen.  >But have you considered a small morningstar or similar? > >A question, you list 29.4v, that seems high? > >jay > > > >On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 5:12 PM, Drake ><drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> >wrote: >I have a Xantrex C-40 that won't keep its >settings. It is important that it does because >it is for a maintainer array (80 W) on an AGM >battery bank, on an AC coupled backup system. >Not only could high voltage damage the >batteries, but when the voltage goes over 30 >Volts, the AUX relay opens and the grid tie inverter is isolated from the grid. > >After numerous sessions of reprogramming, >Xantrex tech support sent me a new unit. The >problem persisted as before. A new temperature >sensor helped, but the settings still drift. It >seems that rebooting the charge controller helps >for a day or so, but then it drifts again. > >The potentiometer settings are way below the >calculated setting for 29.4 V, but it still >peaks in the high 30s. I check the temperature >compensated voltages on the Outback Mate, and >the temp compensated voltage runs high. > >In a related side issue, the AUX relay of the FX >inverters is not based on temperature >compensated voltage, which makes setting AC >coupling charge set points more problematic. > >Has anyone experienced a C-40 CC that drifts in >its settings. What would be a good (inexpensive) >charge controller to accurately control 80 W of PV? > >Thanks, > >Drake > > > > >-- >Jay Peltz >Peltz Power >jay.peltz at gmail.com >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Fri May 15 13:43:47 2015 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (Howard "Scot" Arey) Date: Fri, 15 May 2015 12:43:47 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Whole house solar backup using service entrance conductors from utility - transfer switch or stacked inverters to get 200amp through during normal grid ops? Message-ID: <00b201d08f36$b24c3890$16e4a9b0$@solarcentex.com> Hi, Situation is owner wants grid-tied battery backup. 200amp switch on side of home with two main panels buried deep in this older home = limited ability to create a critical loads panel. House has poor solar siting and really no space for battery room nor indoor space for Outback Radian setup. Opportunity is that the meter and utility pole is right next to boat house 100 yards away. This boat house has great potential for solar and the space is perfect for batteries and inverters. My goal is to do "whole house backup" with customer doing manual load shedding as required. I'd like to interconnect at the service entrance conductors after the utility meter (next to boat house). My dilemma is that the Radian has a 50-amp AC pass through rating so to prevent a bottleneck (code violation, too?) I think I need to stack 4 Radians to get 200 amp pass through capability for when grid is operating normally. As you might see, this is quite expensive and I think over-kill for the owner's backup power requirements. I know there are whole house auto transfer switches for generators. Question - is there some sort of whole house auto transfer switch where both the grid and the backup position are open (still allows PV grid-tied operations to sell back to grid and partially offset loads during normal grid ops) but closes the grid connection during grid failures so that the battery backup provides power (with 2 Radians only). Howard "Scot" Arey 254-300-1228 scot.arey at solarcentex.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 31944 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri May 15 15:32:16 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 15 May 2015 09:32:16 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Whole house solar backup using service entrance conductors from utility - transfer switch or stacked inverters to get 200amp through during normal grid ops? In-Reply-To: <00b201d08f36$b24c3890$16e4a9b0$@solarcentex.com> References: <00b201d08f36$b24c3890$16e4a9b0$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: Connecting multiple Radians is an issue with the manual bypass at each machine has one it is wise to replace them with a single 100 amp and in your case maybe a 200 amp. There are some work-a-rounds but that has other issues connected to it to. I have one of the first dual radian sun power installs and there was quite a list of questions that came across when this was done now some 3 years ago. We had the issue with Chillers needing to operate and required the 100 amp pass through and operation in the off grid mode. Jerry On Fri, May 15, 2015 at 7:43 AM, Howard "Scot" Arey < scot.arey at solarcentex.com> wrote: > Hi, > > > > Situation is owner wants grid-tied battery backup. 200amp switch on side > of home with two main panels buried deep in this older home = limited > ability to create a critical loads panel. House has poor solar siting and > really no space for battery room nor indoor space for Outback Radian setup. > > > > Opportunity is that the meter and utility pole is right next to boat house > 100 yards away. This boat house has great potential for solar and the > space is perfect for batteries and inverters. > > > > My goal is to do “whole house backup” with customer doing manual load > shedding as required. I’d like to interconnect at the service entrance > conductors after the utility meter (next to boat house). > > > > My dilemma is that the Radian has a 50-amp AC pass through rating so to > prevent a bottleneck (code violation, too?) I think I need to stack 4 > Radians to get 200 amp pass through capability for when grid is operating > normally. > > > > As you might see, this is quite expensive and I think over-kill for the > owner’s backup power requirements. > > > > I know there are whole house auto transfer switches for generators. > > > > Question – is there some sort of whole house auto transfer switch where > both the grid and the backup position are open (still allows PV grid-tied > operations to sell back to grid and partially offset loads during normal > grid ops) but closes the grid connection during grid failures so that the > battery backup provides power (with 2 Radians only). > > > > *Howard “Scot” Arey* > > 254-300-1228 > > scot.arey at solarcentex.com > > > > [image: logo from letterhead] > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 31944 bytes Desc: not available URL: From habitek83 at yahoo.com Mon May 18 12:01:32 2015 From: habitek83 at yahoo.com (Tom DeBates) Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 16:01:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Seward PV150 Test Kit Message-ID: <1914361575.1442823.1431964892583.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hello Wrenches,   Has anyone used the Seward PV150 Test Kit?   If so, and you also have experience with the Solmetric PVA-600+ and/or the Solmetric PVA 1000s, how would you compare the products?Thank you,Tom  Tom DeBates Habi-Tek -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Mon May 18 19:10:23 2015 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 23:10:23 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex C-40 Drifting In-Reply-To: <20150515140958.A0EC628205F@homiemail-a82.g.dreamhost.com> References: <20150514231203.E98433DC05B@homiemail-a92.g.dreamhost.com> <20150515140958.A0EC628205F@homiemail-a82.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <414D424906AE60489EF1829E1EFA55712C9C56F2@sbc-exch.sbcdomain.local> Hey Drake, How large is the battery bank? I've seen this before on VRLA's with a couple of companies controllers. Usually this will happen with small battery banks. Best way to explain it is when the battery bank is charging and you remove the charge, the battery is a chemical reaction... it's still charging for a short period of time even though you have removed the source. Steve Higgins Technical Services Manager P: +1.902.597.4020 M: +1.206.790.5840 F: +1.902.597.8447 Surrette Battery Company Exclusive manufacturer of [cid:rolls17a5ec] From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Friday, May 15, 2015 7:10 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex C-40 Drifting I was thinking of a Blue Sky or a Morning Star replacement. The Full River AGM L-16 batteries recommend a 29.4 absorption, very high for a maintenance free battery. I've triple checked this one. At 09:30 AM 5/15/2015, you wrote: HI Drake, Iv'e never seen this happen.  But have you considered a small morningstar or similar? A question, you list 29.4v, that seems high? jay On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 5:12 PM, Drake < drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> wrote: I have a Xantrex C-40 that won't keep its settings. It is important that it does because it is for a maintainer array (80 W) on an AGM battery bank, on an AC coupled backup system. Not only could high voltage damage the batteries, but when the voltage goes over 30 Volts, the AUX relay opens and the grid tie inverter is isolated from the grid. After numerous sessions of reprogramming, Xantrex tech support sent me a new unit. The problem persisted as before. A new temperature sensor helped, but the settings still drift. It seems that rebooting the charge controller helps for a day or so, but then it drifts again. The potentiometer settings are way below the calculated setting for 29.4 V, but it still peaks in the high 30s. I check the temperature compensated voltages on the Outback Mate, and the temp compensated voltage runs high. In a related side issue, the AUX relay of the FX inverters is not based on temperature compensated voltage, which makes setting AC coupling charge set points more problematic. Has anyone experienced a C-40 CC that drifts in its settings. What would be a good (inexpensive) charge controller to accurately control 80 W of PV? Thanks, Drake -- Jay Peltz Peltz Power jay.peltz at gmail.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org This email and its attachments have been scanned by mailWatch E-Mail Firewall for viruses, spam, and malicious content. The information transmitted in this email is intended only for the entity or person to which it is addressed and may contain confidential/privileged material. 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Name: rolls17a5ec Type: image/jpeg Size: 11941 bytes Desc: rolls17a5ec URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Mon May 18 19:58:25 2015 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 19:58:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex C-40 Drifting In-Reply-To: <414D424906AE60489EF1829E1EFA55712C9C56F2@sbc-exch.sbcdomai n.local> References: <20150514231203.E98433DC05B@homiemail-a92.g.dreamhost.com> <20150515140958.A0EC628205F@homiemail-a82.g.dreamhost.com> <414D424906AE60489EF1829E1EFA55712C9C56F2@sbc-exch.sbcdomain.local> Message-ID: <20150518235829.A4B176B80E8@homiemail-a52.g.dreamhost.com> Hi Steve, The battery bank consists of four, 415 AH in a Full River AGM deep cycle batteries wired in a 24 volt series. That is a new concept to me. Does the battery bank charge itself through its own chemical reaction? Would there be any issues with gassing in the VRLA batteries? Would you recommend doing anything about this situation, like change charge controllers? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ At 07:10 PM 5/18/2015, you wrote: >Content-Language: en-US >Content-Type: multipart/related; > >boundary="_004_414D424906AE60489EF1829E1EFA55712C9C56F2sbcexchsbcdomai_"; > type="multipart/alternative" > >Hey Drake, > >How large is the battery bank? > >I’ve seen this before on VRLA’s with a couple of >companies controllers. Usually this will happen with small battery banks. > >Best way to explain it is when the battery bank >is charging and you remove the charge, the >battery is a chemical reaction it’s still >charging for a short period of time even though >you have removed the source. > > > > >Steve Higgins >Technical Services Manager >P: +1.902.597.4020 >M: +1.206.790.5840 >F: +1.902.597.8447 >Surrette Battery Company >Exclusive manufacturer of > >[] > > >From: RE-wrenches >[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake >Sent: Friday, May 15, 2015 7:10 AM >To: RE-wrenches >Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex C-40 Drifting > >I was thinking of a Blue Sky or a Morning Star replacement. > >The Full River AGM L-16 batteries recommend a >29.4 absorption, very high for a maintenance >free battery. I've triple checked this one. > >At 09:30 AM 5/15/2015, you wrote: > >HI Drake, > >Iv'e never seen this happen.  >But have you considered a small morningstar or similar? > >A question, you list 29.4v, that seems high? > >jay > > > >On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 5:12 PM, Drake >< >drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> wrote: >I have a Xantrex C-40 that won't keep its >settings. It is important that it does because >it is for a maintainer array (80 W) on an AGM >battery bank, on an AC coupled backup system. >Not only could high voltage damage the >batteries, but when the voltage goes over 30 >Volts, the AUX relay opens and the grid tie inverter is isolated from the grid. >After numerous sessions of reprogramming, >Xantrex tech support sent me a new unit. The >problem persisted as before. A new temperature >sensor helped, but the settings still drift. It >seems that rebooting the charge controller helps >for a day or so, but then it drifts again. >The potentiometer settings are way below the >calculated setting for 29.4 V, but it still >peaks in the high 30s. I check the temperature >compensated voltages on the Outback Mate, and >the temp compensated voltage runs high. >In a related side issue, the AUX relay of the FX >inverters is not based on temperature >compensated voltage, which makes setting AC >coupling charge set points more problematic. >Has anyone experienced a C-40 CC that drifts in >its settings. What would be a good (inexpensive) >charge controller to accurately control 80 W of PV? >Thanks, >Drake > > > >-- >Jay Peltz >Peltz Power >jay.peltz at gmail.com >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > >This email and its attachments have been scanned >by mailWatch E-Mail Firewall for viruses, spam, >and malicious content. The information >transmitted in this email is intended only for >the entity or person to which it is addressed >and may contain confidential/privileged >material. If you received this in error, please >contact the sender and delete the material from >any computer. Any review, retransmission, >dissemination, or other use of this information >by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited > > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 6d6db2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 11941 bytes Desc: not available URL: From steve at surrette.com Tue May 19 11:06:39 2015 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 15:06:39 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex C-40 Drifting In-Reply-To: <20150518235829.A4B176B80E8@homiemail-a52.g.dreamhost.com> References: <20150514231203.E98433DC05B@homiemail-a92.g.dreamhost.com> <20150515140958.A0EC628205F@homiemail-a82.g.dreamhost.com> <414D424906AE60489EF1829E1EFA55712C9C56F2@sbc-exch.sbcdomain.local> <20150518235829.A4B176B80E8@homiemail-a52.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <414D424906AE60489EF1829E1EFA55712C9C588C@sbc-exch.sbcdomain.local> That's a pretty good size battery bank compared to the charge coming in, normally you only see this with very small battery banks. A battery when under charge is going thru a chemical reaction, this reaction doesn't immediately stop when you remove the charge, if you have a strong source on a small battery bank. The chemical reaction can keep going on for several minutes after the charge has been removed. The battery isn't charging it's self the chemical reaction is just still continuing. To test this, you can put a small DC load (couple of 12volt light bulbs in series) across the battery, when you shut off the controller, turn on the dc load for a second or two and see where the voltage is... Compare it to cooking a roast... when you pull it out of the oven, it's still cooking for about 30-45 minutes past the time you remove it out of the oven. Some controller manufactures will actually back feed the panels for a short period of time to regulate, and prevent the overvoltage. On flooded batteries this isn't much of a problem, but VRLA's if the time is excessive it can be an issue in the long term for the batteries. Just a note... those full rivers can accept a bit more voltage than a standard AGM... http://www.fullriverbattery.com/product/batteries/DC400-6 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 4:58 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex C-40 Drifting Hi Steve, The battery bank consists of four, 415 AH in a Full River AGM deep cycle batteries wired in a 24 volt series. That is a new concept to me. Does the battery bank charge itself through its own chemical reaction? Would there be any issues with gassing in the VRLA batteries? Would you recommend doing anything about this situation, like change charge controllers? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ At 07:10 PM 5/18/2015, you wrote: Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="_004_414D424906AE60489EF1829E1EFA55712C9C56F2sbcexchsbcdomai_"; type="multipart/alternative" Hey Drake, How large is the battery bank? I've seen this before on VRLA's with a couple of companies controllers. Usually this will happen with small battery banks. Best way to explain it is when the battery bank is charging and you remove the charge, the battery is a chemical reaction... it's still charging for a short period of time even though you have removed the source. Steve Higgins Technical Services Manager P: +1.902.597.4020 M: +1.206.790.5840 F: +1.902.597.8447 Surrette Battery Company Exclusive manufacturer of [[]] From: RE-wrenches [ mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Friday, May 15, 2015 7:10 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex C-40 Drifting I was thinking of a Blue Sky or a Morning Star replacement. The Full River AGM L-16 batteries recommend a 29.4 absorption, very high for a maintenance free battery. I've triple checked this one. At 09:30 AM 5/15/2015, you wrote: HI Drake, Iv'e never seen this happen.  But have you considered a small morningstar or similar? A question, you list 29.4v, that seems high? jay On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 5:12 PM, Drake < drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> wrote: I have a Xantrex C-40 that won't keep its settings. It is important that it does because it is for a maintainer array (80 W) on an AGM battery bank, on an AC coupled backup system. Not only could high voltage damage the batteries, but when the voltage goes over 30 Volts, the AUX relay opens and the grid tie inverter is isolated from the grid. After numerous sessions of reprogramming, Xantrex tech support sent me a new unit. The problem persisted as before. A new temperature sensor helped, but the settings still drift. It seems that rebooting the charge controller helps for a day or so, but then it drifts again. The potentiometer settings are way below the calculated setting for 29.4 V, but it still peaks in the high 30s. I check the temperature compensated voltages on the Outback Mate, and the temp compensated voltage runs high. In a related side issue, the AUX relay of the FX inverters is not based on temperature compensated voltage, which makes setting AC coupling charge set points more problematic. Has anyone experienced a C-40 CC that drifts in its settings. What would be a good (inexpensive) charge controller to accurately control 80 W of PV? Thanks, Drake -- Jay Peltz Peltz Power jay.peltz at gmail.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org This email and its attachments have been scanned by mailWatch E-Mail Firewall for viruses, spam, and malicious content. The information transmitted in this email is intended only for the entity or person to which it is addressed and may contain confidential/privileged material. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any review, retransmission, dissemination, or other use of this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org This email and its attachments have been scanned by mailWatch E-Mail Firewall for viruses, spam, and malicious content. The information transmitted in this email is intended only for the entity or person to which it is addressed and may contain confidential/privileged material. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any review, retransmission, dissemination, or other use of this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 11941 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Tue May 19 12:31:04 2015 From: Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com (Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com) Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 12:31:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fw: Xantrex C-40 Drifting Message-ID: Hi: I didn't know that there were systems out there where a PWM charge controller such as the C-40 was producing an unhealthy, high battery voltage. Since there are, I may have a possible explanation. The C-series and other PWM type charge controllers operate by PWM whereby they very very quickly connect/disconnect the solar module to the battery bank. The amount of time which the module is connected to the array is the PWM on-period. These controllers do not have the ability to "smooth out" the output voltage. All they can do is apply the full module voltage OR not apply any module voltage to the battery. Here are some graphs that show this, It 's supposed to work out when the battery absorbs, smooths out and averages the output voltage pulses coming out of the PWM controller. Except, I'm hearing that, that is not necessarily true. It sounds like on some systems the batteries will not average voltage very well over time and indeed experience increasing and undesirably high terminal voltages over time. If this is the mechanism, I think one way alleviate or perhaps even eliminate the rising voltage problem is by matching the module Voc voltage to the desired battery float voltage. For example, if a 28 VDC float voltage was desired, then the solar module Voc should be chosen as something slightly above 28 VDC. i.e. I think the trick is to match the module Voc voltage to the desired battery float voltage. Perhaps a 32 Voc module for a 28 VDC float voltage. I'm not sure what the right number is, but if I'm correct about this mechanism, then a 50 Voc module on a 12 VDC battery, should the kind of system which experiences this overcharging/over voltage problem. You guys have seen many systems. Maybe you can comment on whether the systems which have had this trouble are also ones where the module Voc is much higher than the desired battery float voltage. Perhaps the "trouble systems" also tend to have a specific battery chemistry or even particular battery type. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail ----- Forwarded by Jarmo Venalainen/Canada/Schneider on 05/18/2015 07:02 PM ----- From: Drake To: Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com, Date: 05/18/2015 03:35 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex C-40 Drifting Hi JARMO, The battery bank consists of four, 415 AH in a Full River AGM deep cycle batteries wired in a 24 volt series. The 80 W array is strictly a maintainer to keep the batteries charged when the AC coupled system is detached from the direct grid tie inverters. The only constant loads on the system are about 3 W of power that keeps the metering awake. The batteries are low self discharge. Thanks, Drake At 07:47 PM 5/14/2015, you wrote: Hi: 80W is a really small PV source, so I'm wondering how it can raise the battery voltage so much. What size is the battery? JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail ----- Forwarded by Jarmo Venalainen/Canada/Schneider on 05/14/2015 04:45 PM ----- From: Drake To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 05/14/2015 04:30 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex C-40 Drifting Sent by: "RE-wrenches" I have a Xantrex C-40 that won't keep its settings. It is important that it does because it is for a maintainer array (80 W) on an AGM battery bank, on an AC coupled backup system. Not only could high voltage damage the batteries, but when the voltage goes over 30 Volts, the AUX relay opens and the grid tie inverter is isolated from the grid. After numerous sessions of reprogramming, Xantrex tech support sent me a new unit. The problem persisted as before. A new temperature sensor helped, but the settings still drift. It seems that rebooting the charge controller helps for a day or so, but then it drifts again. The potentiometer settings are way below the calculated setting for 29.4 V, but it still peaks in the high 30s. I check the temperature compensated voltages on the Outback Mate, and the temp compensated voltage runs high. In a related side issue, the AUX relay of the FX inverters is not based on temperature compensated voltage, which makes setting AC coupling charge set points more problematic. Has anyone experienced a C-40 CC that drifts in its settings. What would be a good (inexpensive) charge controller to accurately control 80 W of PV? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue May 19 14:00:22 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 12:00:22 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fw: Xantrex C-40 Drifting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <555B7A36.8080405@solarray.com> Hi Jarmo; Early solar systems actually tried to use the principle of matching array Vmpp to battery voltage in lieu of charge controllers. The biggest issue is that when it is is hot the module voltage can drop below the battery voltage needed, and when its cold the voltage will still be too high. Batteries were either over charged or never reached full charge depending on the conditions. I've used the C40 successfully for decades, so I'm wondering if the circuitry changed recently, or if different tolerance components were substituted that may be causing the drift? Thanks, R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 5/19/2015 10:31 AM, Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com wrote: > Hi: > > I didn't know that there were systems out there where a PWM charge > controller such as the C-40 was producing an unhealthy, high battery > voltage. Since there are, I may have a possible explanation. > > The C-series and other PWM type charge controllers operate by PWM > whereby they very very quickly connect/disconnect the solar module to > the battery bank. The amount of time which the module is connected to > the array is the PWM on-period. These controllers do not have the > ability to "smooth out" the output voltage. All they can do is apply > the full module voltage OR not a -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Tue May 19 18:04:10 2015 From: Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com (Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com) Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 18:04:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fw: Xantrex C-40 Drifting In-Reply-To: <555B7A36.8080405@solarray.com> References: <555B7A36.8080405@solarray.com> Message-ID: Hi: We haven't changed anything the in C40. The essence of my idea was that perhaps the "trouble" systems are the ones which have much higher module Voc versus battery Vfloat. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Ray Walters To: RE-wrenches , Date: 05/19/2015 11:00 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fw: Xantrex C-40 Drifting Sent by: "RE-wrenches" Hi Jarmo; Early solar systems actually tried to use the principle of matching array Vmpp to battery voltage in lieu of charge controllers. The biggest issue is that when it is is hot the module voltage can drop below the battery voltage needed, and when its cold the voltage will still be too high. Batteries were either over charged or never reached full charge depending on the conditions. I've used the C40 successfully for decades, so I'm wondering if the circuitry changed recently, or if different tolerance components were substituted that may be causing the drift? Thanks, R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 5/19/2015 10:31 AM, Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com wrote: Hi: I didn't know that there were systems out there where a PWM charge controller such as the C-40 was producing an unhealthy, high battery voltage. Since there are, I may have a possible explanation. The C-series and other PWM type charge controllers operate by PWM whereby they very very quickly connect/disconnect the solar module to the battery bank. The amount of time which the module is connected to the array is the PWM on-period. These controllers do not have the ability to "smooth out" the output voltage. All they can do is apply the full module voltage OR not a ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed May 20 10:34:58 2015 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 10:34:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fw: Xantrex C-40 Drifting In-Reply-To: References: <555B7A36.8080405@solarray.com> Message-ID: <20150520143505.CB9F410068@che.dreamhost.com> The modules are Sunwise 22 V, 40 W modules. The model number of the modules is SW-S40P SWT. The are wired in series for a 24 V nominal system. That would be an mppt voltage of 44 V on a system that directs batteries to absorb at 29.4 volts. I'm not sure what the NOCT voltage would be, but it would seem like it would be an ok fit? I think you are on the right track with the MPPT charging graph. The CC likely allows pulses of full charge to hit when the batteries are at their maximum set point voltage. Would a very short pulse of high voltage be a problem of a VRLA battery? Could any significant gassing take place? Thanks, Drake At 06:04 PM 5/19/2015, you wrote: >Hi: > >We haven't changed anything the in C40. The essence of my idea was >that perhaps the "trouble" systems are the ones which have much >higher module Voc versus battery Vfloat. > >JARMO >_____________________________________________________________________________________ > > >Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex >Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer >Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: >+604-505-0291 >Email: >jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com >| Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 > >[] > >[] > >[] > >[] > > > >*** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail > > > >From: Ray Walters >To: RE-wrenches , >Date: 05/19/2015 11:00 AM >Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fw: Xantrex C-40 Drifting >Sent by: "RE-wrenches" > > > > >Hi Jarmo; > >Early solar systems actually tried to use the principle of matching >array Vmpp to battery voltage in lieu of charge controllers. The >biggest issue is that when it is is hot the module voltage can drop >below the battery voltage needed, and when its cold the voltage will >still be too high. Batteries were either over charged or never >reached full charge depending on the conditions. >I've used the C40 successfully for decades, so I'm wondering if the >circuitry changed recently, or if different tolerance components >were substituted that may be causing the drift? > >Thanks, >R.Ray Walters >CTO, Solarray, Inc >Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >Licensed Master Electrician >Solar Design Engineer >303 505-8760 >On 5/19/2015 10:31 AM, >Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com >wrote: >Hi: > >I didn't know that there were systems out there where a PWM charge >controller such as the C-40 was producing an unhealthy, high battery >voltage. Since there are, I may have a possible explanation. > >The C-series and other PWM type charge controllers operate by PWM >whereby they very very quickly connect/disconnect the solar module >to the battery bank. The amount of time which the module is >connected to the array is the PWM on-period. These controllers do >not have the ability to "smooth out" the output voltage. All they >can do is apply the full module voltage OR not a > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. >_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: 8b64c39.gif Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Richard.L.Ratico at VALLEY.NET Wed May 20 13:32:52 2015 From: Richard.L.Ratico at VALLEY.NET (Richard L Ratico) Date: 20 May 2015 13:32:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Array easily adjustable from 30 to 90 degrees Message-ID: <178777539@retriever.VALLEY.NET> Hi Wrenches, Can anyone recommend a commercially available, ground mount array racking system with an adjustment range of 30 to 90 degrees. Ideally this would be easily accomplished by one person. Here in Vermont, in winter, the 90 degree, vertical orientation can provide satisfactory production while virtually eliminating the need to manually clear snow from the modules. This is particularly helpful in off-grid, seasonal home situations, when no one is available to do the clearing, but expensive batteries still need to be charged. I've contacted DPW already, and am awaiting a return call from their engineers, but so far, it seems they may not be willing or able to provide a solution. Thank you, Dick Ratico Solarwind Electric Bradford, VT From reellison at gmail.com Wed May 20 14:24:22 2015 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 14:24:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Array easily adjustable from 30 to 90 degrees In-Reply-To: <178777539@retriever.VALLEY.NET> References: <178777539@retriever.VALLEY.NET> Message-ID: <000001d0932a$3272acb0$97580610$@com> Try www.ussolarmounts.com -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Richard L Ratico Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2015 1:33 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Array easily adjustable from 30 to 90 degrees Hi Wrenches, Can anyone recommend a commercially available, ground mount array racking system with an adjustment range of 30 to 90 degrees. Ideally this would be easily accomplished by one person. Here in Vermont, in winter, the 90 degree, vertical orientation can provide satisfactory production while virtually eliminating the need to manually clear snow from the modules. This is particularly helpful in off-grid, seasonal home situations, when no one is available to do the clearing, but expensive batteries still need to be charged. I've contacted DPW already, and am awaiting a return call from their engineers, but so far, it seems they may not be willing or able to provide a solution. Thank you, Dick Ratico Solarwind Electric Bradford, VT _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed May 20 16:18:06 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 10:18:06 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Array easily adjustable from 30 to 90 degrees In-Reply-To: <178777539@retriever.VALLEY.NET> References: <178777539@retriever.VALLEY.NET> Message-ID: Wrenches I have used DPW/ DWP? top of pole in snow areas and as i recall they can go close to 90 degrees. Any oole mount should be able to get close to that number, you may also consider even extending the prop rod. Jerry On May 20, 2015 8:11 AM, "Richard L Ratico" wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > Can anyone recommend a commercially available, ground mount array racking > system > with an adjustment range of 30 to 90 degrees. Ideally this would be easily > accomplished by one person. > Here in Vermont, in winter, the 90 degree, vertical orientation can provide > satisfactory production while virtually eliminating the need to manually > clear > snow from the modules. This is particularly helpful in off-grid, seasonal > home > situations, when no one is available to do the clearing, but expensive > batteries > still need to be charged. I've contacted DPW already, and am awaiting a > return > call from their engineers, but so far, it seems they may not be willing or > able > to provide a solution. > > Thank you, > Dick Ratico > Solarwind Electric > Bradford, VT > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Richard.L.Ratico at valley.net Wed May 20 17:04:53 2015 From: Richard.L.Ratico at valley.net (Richard L Ratico) Date: 20 May 2015 17:04:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Array easily adjustable from 30 to 90 degrees Message-ID: <178782770@retriever.VALLEY.NET> Bob Ellison, Thanks for your quick reply. Checked them out. They only go to 50 degrees and require max. 66" high posts. Looks like radical modification of the recommended post and foundations would be necessary for their product to work. Dick --- You wrote: Try www.ussolarmounts.com -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Richard L Ratico Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2015 1:33 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Array easily adjustable from 30 to 90 degrees Hi Wrenches, Can anyone recommend a commercially available, ground mount array racking system with an adjustment range of 30 to 90 degrees. Ideally this would be easily accomplished by one person. Here in Vermont, in winter, the 90 degree, vertical orientation can provide satisfactory production while virtually eliminating the need to manually clear snow from the modules. This is particularly helpful in off-grid, seasonal home situations, when no one is available to do the clearing, but expensive batteries still need to be charged. I've contacted DPW already, and am awaiting a return call from their engineers, but so far, it seems they may not be willing or able to provide a solution. Thank you, Dick Ratico Solarwind Electric Bradford, VT --- end of quote --- From maclewis1 at gmail.com Wed May 20 18:16:02 2015 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 16:16:02 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Array easily adjustable from 30 to 90 degrees In-Reply-To: References: <178777539@retriever.VALLEY.NET> Message-ID: Hi Richard, A relatively new pole mount racking manufacturer called MT Solar has a pole mount that assembles on the ground and can tip to 90 degrees. It is an innovative mount but not yet refined. It has a hand crank that one person can adjust the array from the ground. They can be found here: http://www.polemount.solar/ It's not a perfect product, but its got a lot of very good characteristics and it seems like they are improving it every day. Much quicker lead time than the other pole mount manufacturers as well. I would call them and tell them what you are trying to do and see if its a good fit. Good Luck On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 2:18 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches > I have used DPW/ DWP? top of pole in snow areas and as i recall they can > go close to 90 degrees. Any oole mount should be able to get close to that > number, you may also consider even extending the prop rod. > Jerry > On May 20, 2015 8:11 AM, "Richard L Ratico" > wrote: > >> Hi Wrenches, >> >> Can anyone recommend a commercially available, ground mount array racking >> system >> with an adjustment range of 30 to 90 degrees. Ideally this would be easily >> accomplished by one person. >> Here in Vermont, in winter, the 90 degree, vertical orientation can >> provide >> satisfactory production while virtually eliminating the need to manually >> clear >> snow from the modules. This is particularly helpful in off-grid, seasonal >> home >> situations, when no one is available to do the clearing, but expensive >> batteries >> still need to be charged. I've contacted DPW already, and am awaiting a >> return >> call from their engineers, but so far, it seems they may not be willing >> or able >> to provide a solution. >> >> Thank you, >> Dick Ratico >> Solarwind Electric >> Bradford, VT >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Wed May 20 18:22:01 2015 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 15:22:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Array easily adjustable from 30 to 90 degrees In-Reply-To: References: <178777539@retriever.VALLEY.NET> Message-ID: <1432160521.379612339@webmail.finestplanet.com> and if you do, please report back to the list with your experiences with them as pole mounts are mostly what i do. todd On Wednesday, May 20, 2015 3:16pm, "Mac Lewis" said: Hi Richard, A relatively new pole mount racking manufacturer called MT Solar has a pole mount that assembles on the ground and can tip to 90 degrees. It is an innovative mount but not yet refined. It has a hand crank that one person can adjust the array from the ground. They can be found here: [ http://www.polemount.solar/ ]( http://www.polemount.solar/ ) It's not a perfect product, but its got a lot of very good characteristics and it seems like they are improving it every day. Much quicker lead time than the other pole mount manufacturers as well. I would call them and tell them what you are trying to do and see if its a good fit. Good Luck Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Wed May 20 19:46:17 2015 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 17:46:17 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Array easily adjustable from 30 to 90 degrees In-Reply-To: <178782770@retriever.VALLEY.NET> References: <178782770@retriever.VALLEY.NET> Message-ID: Try www.mtsolar.us On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 3:04 PM, Richard L Ratico < Richard.L.Ratico at valley.net> wrote: > Bob Ellison, > Thanks for your quick reply. Checked them out. They only go to 50 degrees > and > require max. 66" high posts. Looks like radical modification of the > recommended > post and foundations would be necessary for their product to work. > Dick > > > --- You wrote: > Try www.ussolarmounts.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Richard L Ratico > Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2015 1:33 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Array easily adjustable from 30 to 90 degrees > > > > Hi Wrenches, > > > > Can anyone recommend a commercially available, ground mount array racking > system with an adjustment range of 30 to 90 degrees. Ideally this would be > easily accomplished by one person. > > Here in Vermont, in winter, the 90 degree, vertical orientation can provide > satisfactory production while virtually eliminating the need to manually > clear snow from the modules. This is particularly helpful in off-grid, > seasonal home situations, when no one is available to do the clearing, but > expensive batteries still need to be charged. I've contacted DPW already, > and am awaiting a return call from their engineers, but so far, it seems > they may not be willing or able to provide a solution. > > > > Thank you, > > Dick Ratico > > Solarwind Electric > > Bradford, VT > --- end of quote --- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Pine Ridge Products LLC 1646 East Highwood Rd Belt, MT 59412 www.pineridgeproducts.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed May 20 21:48:02 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 19:48:02 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Array easily adjustable from 30 to 90 degrees In-Reply-To: <1432160521.379612339@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <178777539@retriever.VALLEY.NET> <1432160521.379612339@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: <555D3952.5040001@solarray.com> Most pole mounts do not go to 90 deg. BTW. The pivot would need to stick out South of the pole. We make specialty racks, and could build something like this for you. Contact me off list. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 5/20/2015 4:22 PM, toddcory at finestplanet.com wrote: > > and if you do, please report back to the list with your experiences > with them as pole mounts are mostly what i do. > > todd > > > > On Wednesday, May 20, 2015 3:16pm, "Mac Lewis" said: > > Hi Richard, > A relatively new pole mount racking manufacturer called MT Solar has a > pole mount that assembles on the ground and can tip to 90 degrees. It > is an innovative mount but not yet refined. It has a hand crank that > one person can adjust the array from the ground. They can be found > here: http://www.polemount.solar/ > It's not a perfect product, but its got a lot of very good > characteristics and it seems like they are improving it every day. > Much quicker lead time than the other pole mount manufacturers as well. > I would call them and tell them what you are trying to do and see if > its a good fit. > Good Luck > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Wed May 20 21:34:05 2015 From: Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com (Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com) Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 21:34:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fw: Xantrex C-40 Drifting In-Reply-To: <20150520143505.CB9F410068@che.dreamhost.com> References: <555B7A36.8080405@solarray.com> <20150520143505.CB9F410068@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Hi: My thought is that the mechanism by which the battery voltage slowly rises under the influence of a solar module connected through a C40 type PWM controller is due to the fact that the PWM type controllers don't regulate voltage but rather connect the full output voltage of the module/array to the battery on a pulse width limited basis. Seems that those high voltage pulses, brief as they may be thanks to the PWM, are still none the less able to slowly raise the resting terminal voltage of at least some types of AGM batteries. I don't know enough about batteries to know if that is a problem or not. Perhaps its perfectly normal as almost any new lead acid battery will retain a higher than normal measurable "ghost voltage" just after it has been fully charged. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Drake To: RE-wrenches , Date: 05/20/2015 11:11 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fw: Xantrex C-40 Drifting Sent by: "RE-wrenches" The modules are Sunwise 22 V, 40 W modules. The model number of the modules is SW-S40P SWT. The are wired in series for a 24 V nominal system. That would be an mppt voltage of 44 V on a system that directs batteries to absorb at 29.4 volts. I'm not sure what the NOCT voltage would be, but it would seem like it would be an ok fit? I think you are on the right track with the MPPT charging graph. The CC likely allows pulses of full charge to hit when the batteries are at their maximum set point voltage. Would a very short pulse of high voltage be a problem of a VRLA battery? Could any significant gassing take place? Thanks, Drake At 06:04 PM 5/19/2015, you wrote: Hi: We haven't changed anything the in C40. The essence of my idea was that perhaps the "trouble" systems are the ones which have much higher module Voc versus battery Vfloat. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Ray Walters To: RE-wrenches , Date: 05/19/2015 11:00 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fw: Xantrex C-40 Drifting Sent by: "RE-wrenches" Hi Jarmo; Early solar systems actually tried to use the principle of matching array Vmpp to battery voltage in lieu of charge controllers. The biggest issue is that when it is is hot the module voltage can drop below the battery voltage needed, and when its cold the voltage will still be too high. Batteries were either over charged or never reached full charge depending on the conditions. I've used the C40 successfully for decades, so I'm wondering if the circuitry changed recently, or if different tolerance components were substituted that may be causing the drift? Thanks, R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 5/19/2015 10:31 AM, Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com wrote: Hi: I didn't know that there were systems out there where a PWM charge controller such as the C-40 was producing an unhealthy, high battery voltage. Since there are, I may have a possible explanation. The C-series and other PWM type charge controllers operate by PWM whereby they very very quickly connect/disconnect the solar module to the battery bank. The amount of time which the module is connected to the array is the PWM on-period. These controllers do not have the ability to "smooth out" the output voltage. All they can do is apply the full module voltage OR not a ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 38319 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 4274 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 1869 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 1897 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 4274 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 1869 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 1897 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sbell at morningstarcorp.com Thu May 21 12:25:28 2015 From: sbell at morningstarcorp.com (Steve Bell) Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 10:25:28 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fw: Xantrex C-40 Drifting In-Reply-To: References: <555B7A36.8080405@solarray.com> <20150520143505.CB9F410068@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, I have been following this C-40 drifting thread. From my personal experience the C-40 always had about a 0.2 to 0.4 volt drift since the early days (1994-95). This was on a 48-volt system, so the drift might be less at lower battery voltages. The drift was not a simple mis-calibration; one day 0.3 volt high, another day 0.4 volts low. I don't know if this is a component of the problem, but thought I would mention it. Best Regards, Steve Bell On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 7:34 PM, wrote: > Hi: > > My thought is that the mechanism by which the battery voltage slowly rises > under the influence of a solar module connected through a C40 type PWM > controller is due to the fact that the PWM type controllers don't regulate > voltage but rather connect the full output voltage of the module/array to > the battery on a pulse width limited basis. > > Seems that those high voltage pulses, brief as they may be thanks to the > PWM, are still none the less able to slowly raise the resting terminal > voltage of at least some types of AGM batteries. > > I don't know enough about batteries to know if that is a problem or not. > Perhaps its perfectly normal as almost any new lead acid battery will > retain a higher than normal measurable "ghost voltage" just after it has > been fully charged. > > JARMO > > > > _____________________________________________________________________________________ > > * Jarmo Venalainen* | * Schneider Electric ** | Xantrex Brand* | > *CANADA* | *Sales Application Engineer* > * Phone:* +604-422-2528 | *Tech Support:* 800-670-0707 | *Mobile:* > +604-505-0291 > * Email:* *jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com* > | *Site:** www.Xantrex.com* > | *Address:* 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC > V5G4M1 > > > > > > *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail > > > > From: Drake To: RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>, Date: 05/20/2015 11:11 AM Subject: Re: > [RE-wrenches] Fw: Xantrex C-40 Drifting Sent by: "RE-wrenches" < > re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org> > ------------------------------ > > > > The modules are Sunwise 22 V, 40 W modules. The model number of the > modules is SW-S40P SWT. The are wired in series for a 24 V nominal > system. That would be an mppt voltage of 44 V on a system that directs > batteries to absorb at 29.4 volts. I'm not sure what the NOCT voltage would > be, but it would seem like it would be an ok fit? > > I think you are on the right track with the MPPT charging graph. The CC > likely allows pulses of full charge to hit when the batteries are at their > maximum set point voltage. > > Would a very short pulse of high voltage be a problem of a VRLA battery? > Could any significant gassing take place? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > > > At 06:04 PM 5/19/2015, you wrote: > Hi: > > We haven't changed anything the in C40. The essence of my idea was that > perhaps the "trouble" systems are the ones which have much higher module > Voc versus battery Vfloat. > > JARMO > > _____________________________________________________________________________________ > > * Jarmo Venalainen* | *Schneider Electric ** | Xantrex Brand* | > *CANADA* | *Sales Application Engineer* > * Phone:* +604-422-2528 | *Tech Support:* 800-670-0707 | *Mobile:* > +604-505-0291 > * Email:* *jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com* > | *Site:* > *www.Xantrex.com* | > *Address:* 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 > [image: []] [image: []] > [image: []] > [image: []] > > > *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail > > > > From: Ray Walters > To: RE-wrenches , > Date: 05/19/2015 11:00 AM > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fw: Xantrex C-40 Drifting > Sent by: "RE-wrenches" > > > > > Hi Jarmo; > > Early solar systems actually tried to use the principle of matching array > Vmpp to battery voltage in lieu of charge controllers. The biggest issue > is that when it is is hot the module voltage can drop below the battery > voltage needed, and when its cold the voltage will still be too high. > Batteries were either over charged or never reached full charge depending > on the conditions. > I've used the C40 successfully for decades, so I'm wondering if the > circuitry changed recently, or if different tolerance components were > substituted that may be causing the drift? > > Thanks, > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > On 5/19/2015 10:31 AM, *Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com* > wrote: > Hi: > > I didn't know that there were systems out there where a PWM charge > controller such as the C-40 was producing an unhealthy, high battery > voltage. Since there are, I may have a possible explanation. > > The C-series and other PWM type charge controllers operate by PWM whereby > they very very quickly connect/disconnect the solar module to the battery > bank. The amount of time which the module is connected to the array is the > PWM on-period. These controllers do not have the ability to "smooth out" > the output voltage. All they can do is apply the full module voltage OR > not a > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. > ______________________________________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > *http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org* > > > List-Archive: > *http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html* > > > List rules & etiquette: > *www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm* > > > Check out or update participant bios: > *www.members.re-wrenches.org* > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > *http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org* > > > List-Archive: > *http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html* > > > List rules & etiquette: > *www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm* > > > Check out or update participant bios: > *www.members.re-wrenches.org* > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. > ______________________________________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 4274 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 1897 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 1869 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 4274 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 1869 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 38319 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 1897 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mick at abrahamsolar.com Thu May 21 12:32:07 2015 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 10:32:07 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Array easily adjustable from 30 to 90 degrees Message-ID: Hi, Wrenchies~ I would like to hear feedback from other purchasers about the "MT Solar" crating & packaging. In 2014 we bought two of their "six module" poletop mounts, but in our case all the protective packaging got trashed somewhere along the way. It looked less like a shipment and more like a yard sale! I suspect that a nameless trucker purposely broke down our pallets to "make things easier". With bulky bundles, it's important for the packaging to be teamster resistant...so a Wrench Wreport about MT's packaging would be appreciated. I might use these poletop racks again in the future, especially if "MT Solar" would switch to a powder coat for the steel instead of the "wet" painting process they were using in 2014. The Wrench List is the Bomb! Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Voice: 970-731-4675 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Thu May 21 13:56:15 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 11:56:15 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery setpoints with larger arrays Message-ID: <555E1C3F.40503@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Thu May 21 12:47:43 2015 From: Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com (Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com) Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 12:47:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fw: Xantrex C-40 Drifting In-Reply-To: References: <555B7A36.8080405@solarray.com> <20150520143505.CB9F410068@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Hi: The C40 circuit is a really simple circuit made up of a set of resistors, capacitors, op-amps, a time-base crystal and PWM. Simple electronic components, so I don't see drift issues, except maybe under large temperature changes. What does change a lot is the intensity of the sun and thereby the Voc, Vmp, Imp, etc. of the module/array. Given that the PWM applies the varying "raw" available array voltage/current directly to the battery, I think that's how the output voltage variation issue arises. It's an idea. It may be right or wrong. Some trials would be needed to prove or disprove it. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Steve Bell To: RE-wrenches , Date: 05/21/2015 09:25 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fw: Xantrex C-40 Drifting Sent by: "RE-wrenches" Hello Wrenches, I have been following this C-40 drifting thread. From my personal experience the C-40 always had about a 0.2 to 0.4 volt drift since the early days (1994-95). This was on a 48-volt system, so the drift might be less at lower battery voltages. The drift was not a simple mis-calibration; one day 0.3 volt high, another day 0.4 volts low. I don't know if this is a component of the problem, but thought I would mention it. Best Regards, Steve Bell On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 7:34 PM, wrote: Hi: My thought is that the mechanism by which the battery voltage slowly rises under the influence of a solar module connected through a C40 type PWM controller is due to the fact that the PWM type controllers don't regulate voltage but rather connect the full output voltage of the module/array to the battery on a pulse width limited basis. Seems that those high voltage pulses, brief as they may be thanks to the PWM, are still none the less able to slowly raise the resting terminal voltage of at least some types of AGM batteries. I don't know enough about batteries to know if that is a problem or not. Perhaps its perfectly normal as almost any new lead acid battery will retain a higher than normal measurable "ghost voltage" just after it has been fully charged. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Drake To: RE-wrenches , Date: 05/20/2015 11:11 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fw: Xantrex C-40 Drifting Sent by: "RE-wrenches" The modules are Sunwise 22 V, 40 W modules. The model number of the modules is SW-S40P SWT. The are wired in series for a 24 V nominal system. That would be an mppt voltage of 44 V on a system that directs batteries to absorb at 29.4 volts. I'm not sure what the NOCT voltage would be, but it would seem like it would be an ok fit? I think you are on the right track with the MPPT charging graph. The CC likely allows pulses of full charge to hit when the batteries are at their maximum set point voltage. Would a very short pulse of high voltage be a problem of a VRLA battery? Could any significant gassing take place? Thanks, Drake At 06:04 PM 5/19/2015, you wrote: Hi: We haven't changed anything the in C40. The essence of my idea was that perhaps the "trouble" systems are the ones which have much higher module Voc versus battery Vfloat. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Ray Walters To: RE-wrenches , Date: 05/19/2015 11:00 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fw: Xantrex C-40 Drifting Sent by: "RE-wrenches" Hi Jarmo; Early solar systems actually tried to use the principle of matching array Vmpp to battery voltage in lieu of charge controllers. The biggest issue is that when it is is hot the module voltage can drop below the battery voltage needed, and when its cold the voltage will still be too high. Batteries were either over charged or never reached full charge depending on the conditions. I've used the C40 successfully for decades, so I'm wondering if the circuitry changed recently, or if different tolerance components were substituted that may be causing the drift? Thanks, R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 5/19/2015 10:31 AM, Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com wrote: Hi: I didn't know that there were systems out there where a PWM charge controller such as the C-40 was producing an unhealthy, high battery voltage. Since there are, I may have a possible explanation. The C-series and other PWM type charge controllers operate by PWM whereby they very very quickly connect/disconnect the solar module to the battery bank. The amount of time which the module is connected to the array is the PWM on-period. These controllers do not have the ability to "smooth out" the output voltage. All they can do is apply the full module voltage OR not a ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 1869 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 1897 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From boB at midnitesolar.com Thu May 21 15:07:43 2015 From: boB at midnitesolar.com (boB at midnitesolar.com) Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 12:07:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fw: Xantrex C-40 Drifting In-Reply-To: References: <555B7A36.8080405@solarray.com> <20150520143505.CB9F410068@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <555E2CFF.9080807@midnitesolar.com> The old 48V SW inverter, designed by the same person (Greg) that designed the C-40, C-12, C-6 and C-60 only has a 0.4 volt resolution. Does the C-series CC's also have this resolution ? Maybe that's why you might see a +-0.2 or 0.3 volt variation ? Not that big of a deal usually for a 48V battery. That circuit, like most PWM chargers, regulate the "average" DC battery voltage so some peak and valley voltages are going to happen. boB On 5/21/2015 9:47 AM, Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com wrote: > Hi: > > The C40 circuit is a really simple circuit made up of a set of > resistors, capacitors, op-amps, a time-base crystal and PWM. Simple > electronic components, so I don't see drift issues, except maybe under > large temperature changes. > > What does change a lot is the intensity of the sun and thereby the > Voc, Vmp, Imp, etc. of the module/array. > > Given that the PWM applies the varying "raw" available array > voltage/current directly to the battery, I think that's how the output > voltage variation issue arises. > > It's an idea. It may be right or wrong. Some trials would be needed > to prove or disprove it. > > JARMO > _____________________________________________________________________________________ > * > Jarmo Venalainen* | *Schneider Electric **| Xantrex Brand* | > *CANADA* | *Sales Application Engineer* * > Phone:* +604-422-2528 | *Tech Support:* 800-670-0707 | *Mobile:* > +604-505-0291 * > Email:* _jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com_ > | > *Site:*_www.Xantrex.com_ | *Address:* 3700 > Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 > > > > > > > > *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail > > > > From: Steve Bell > To: RE-wrenches , > Date: 05/21/2015 09:25 AM > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fw: Xantrex C-40 Drifting > Sent by: "RE-wrenches" > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > Hello Wrenches, > > I have been following this C-40 drifting thread. From my personal > experience the C-40 always had about a 0.2 to 0.4 volt drift since the > early days (1994-95). This was on a 48-volt system, so the drift might > be less at lower battery voltages. The drift was not a simple > mis-calibration; one day 0.3 volt high, another day 0.4 volts low. > I don't know if this is a component of the problem, but thought I > would mention it. > > Best Regards, > > Steve Bell > > > > > On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 7:34 PM, > <_Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com_ > > wrote: > Hi: > > My thought is that the mechanism by which the battery voltage slowly > rises under the influence of a solar module connected through a C40 > type PWM controller is due to the fact that the PWM type controllers > don't regulate voltage but rather connect the full output voltage of > the module/array to the battery on a pulse width limited basis. > > Seems that those high voltage pulses, brief as they may be thanks to > the PWM, are still none the less able to slowly raise the resting > terminal voltage of at least some types of AGM batteries. > > I don't know enough about batteries to know if that is a problem or > not. Perhaps its perfectly normal as almost any new lead acid battery > will retain a higher than normal measurable "ghost voltage" just after > it has been fully charged. > > JARMO > > > _____________________________________________________________________________________* > > Jarmo Venalainen* | *Schneider Electric **| Xantrex Brand* | > *CANADA* | *Sales Application Engineer* * > Phone:* _+604-422-2528_ | *Tech Support:* > _800-670-0707_ | *Mobile:* _+604-505-0291_ > * > Email:* _jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com_ > | > *Site:*_www.Xantrex.com_ | *Address:* 3700 > Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 > > > > > > > > > *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail > > > From: Drake <_drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org_ > > > To: RE-wrenches <_re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org_ > >, > Date: 05/20/2015 11:11 AM > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fw: Xantrex C-40 Drifting > Sent by: "RE-wrenches" <_re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org_ > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > The modules are Sunwise 22 V, 40 W modules. The model number of the > modules is SW-S40P SWT. The are wired in series for a 24 V nominal > system. That would be an mppt voltage of 44 V on a system that > directs batteries to absorb at 29.4 volts. I'm not sure what the NOCT > voltage would be, but it would seem like it would be an ok fit? > > I think you are on the right track with the MPPT charging graph. The > CC likely allows pulses of full charge to hit when the batteries are > at their maximum set point voltage. > > Would a very short pulse of high voltage be a problem of a VRLA > battery? Could any significant gassing take place? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > > > At 06:04 PM 5/19/2015, you wrote: > Hi: > > We haven't changed anything the in C40. The essence of my idea was > that perhaps the "trouble" systems are the ones which have much higher > module Voc versus battery Vfloat. > > JARMO > _____________________________________________________________________________________* > > Jarmo Venalainen* | *Schneider Electric ** | Xantrex Brand* | > *CANADA* | *Sales Application Engineer* * > Phone:* _+604-422-2528_ | *Tech Support:* > _800-670-0707_ | *Mobile:* _+604-505-0291_ > * > Email:* _jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com_ > | *Site:*__ > _www.Xantrex.com_ > __ | *Address:* 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, > BC V5G4M1 _ > _[] __[] [] > [] > > > *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail > > > > From:Ray Walters <_ray at solarray.com_ > > To:RE-wrenches <_re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org_ > >, > Date:05/19/2015 11:00 AM > Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Fw: Xantrex C-40 Drifting > Sent by:"RE-wrenches" <_re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org_ > > > > > > > Hi Jarmo; > > Early solar systems actually tried to use the principle of matching > array Vmpp to battery voltage in lieu of charge controllers. The > biggest issue is that when it is is hot the module voltage can drop > below the battery voltage needed, and when its cold the voltage will > still be too high. Batteries were either over charged or never > reached full charge depending on the conditions. > I've used the C40 successfully for decades, so I'm wondering if the > circuitry changed recently, or if different tolerance components were > substituted that may be causing the drift? > > Thanks, > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer_ > __303 505-8760_ > On 5/19/2015 10:31 AM, _Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com_ > wrote: > Hi: > > I didn't know that there were systems out there where a PWM charge > controller such as the C-40 was producing an unhealthy, high battery > voltage. Since there are, I may have a possible explanation. > > The C-series and other PWM type charge controllers operate by PWM > whereby they very very quickly connect/disconnect the solar module to > the battery bank. The amount of time which the module is connected to > the array is the PWM on-period. These controllers do not have the > ability to "smooth out" the output voltage. All they can do is apply > the full module voltage OR not a > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 38319 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 4274 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From howie at suncatchervt.com Thu May 21 16:02:27 2015 From: howie at suncatchervt.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 16:02:27 -0400 (Eas) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fw: Xantrex C-40 Drifting In-Reply-To: <555E2CFF.9080807@midnitesolar.com> References: <555B7A36.8080405@solarray.com> <20150520143505.CB9F410068@che.dreamhost.com> <555E2CFF.9080807@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: <65060.73.167.49.246.1432238547.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com> At the risk of adding more confusion to this conversation, I thought I'd mention something that may be completely unrelated. This would possibly pertain to this issue if there is a Trace TM500 in the system. Many years ago, I made many trips to an off-grid site with an SW5548, C40, and the old Trace TM500 meter, due to the C40 reportedly not working. After not seeing the problem on several trips, I finally saw the C40 behave erratically and shut-off for significant periods. I cannot remember the exact scenario which caused the problem, but it was directly related to the TM500's circuit board which was bolted to the shunt. Apparently this circuit board created enough noise that it confused the C40 and shut it off. At the time, Xantrex did not "know" of any problem related to this, but talking with Ralph Hiesey at Bogart Engineering (who had sold Xantrex the design for the meter), he said that he had cautioned Trace to not split the circuit board up and place it on the shunt, for the reason that it would put unwanted noise into the system. This was apparently only caused trouble in 48volt systems. Xantrex eventually admitted that there was some internal research being done on the issue and they had only known about it for the previous 6 months! I believe that was the "support" incident that convinced me to not use Xantrex equipment anymore - fortunately, by then we had Outback as an alternative to move to... This is obviously different than the issue at hand, but just thought I'd mention the history in case there was something similar going on. Howie -- Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ Catamount Solar, LLC Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric & Hot Water Incentive Partner http://www.CatamountSolar.com 802-272-0004 On Thu, May 21, 2015 3:07 pm, boB at midnitesolar.com wrote: > > > The old 48V SW inverter, designed by the same person (Greg) that designed > the C-40, C-12, C-6 and C-60 only has a 0.4 volt resolution. Does the > C-series > CC's also have this resolution ? Maybe that's why you might see a +-0.2 > or 0.3 volt > variation ? Not that big of a deal usually for a 48V battery. > > That circuit, like most PWM chargers, regulate the "average" DC battery > voltage so some > peak and valley voltages are going to happen. > > boB > > > > On 5/21/2015 9:47 AM, Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com wrote: >> Hi: >> >> The C40 circuit is a really simple circuit made up of a set of >> resistors, capacitors, op-amps, a time-base crystal and PWM. Simple >> electronic components, so I don't see drift issues, except maybe under >> large temperature changes. >> >> What does change a lot is the intensity of the sun and thereby the >> Voc, Vmp, Imp, etc. of the module/array. >> >> Given that the PWM applies the varying "raw" available array >> voltage/current directly to the battery, I think that's how the output >> voltage variation issue arises. >> >> It's an idea. It may be right or wrong. Some trials would be needed >> to prove or disprove it. >> >> JARMO >> _____________________________________________________________________________________ >> * >> Jarmo Venalainen* | *Schneider Electric **| Xantrex Brand* | >> *CANADA* | *Sales Application Engineer* * >> Phone:* +604-422-2528 | *Tech Support:* 800-670-0707 | *Mobile:* >> +604-505-0291 * >> Email:* _jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com_ >> | >> *Site:*_www.Xantrex.com_ | *Address:* 3700 >> Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail >> >> >> >> From: Steve Bell >> To: RE-wrenches , >> Date: 05/21/2015 09:25 AM >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fw: Xantrex C-40 Drifting >> Sent by: "RE-wrenches" >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> I have been following this C-40 drifting thread. From my personal >> experience the C-40 always had about a 0.2 to 0.4 volt drift since the >> early days (1994-95). This was on a 48-volt system, so the drift might >> be less at lower battery voltages. The drift was not a simple >> mis-calibration; one day 0.3 volt high, another day 0.4 volts low. >> I don't know if this is a component of the problem, but thought I >> would mention it. >> >> Best Regards, >> >> Steve Bell >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 7:34 PM, >> <_Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com_ >> > wrote: >> Hi: >> >> My thought is that the mechanism by which the battery voltage slowly >> rises under the influence of a solar module connected through a C40 >> type PWM controller is due to the fact that the PWM type controllers >> don't regulate voltage but rather connect the full output voltage of >> the module/array to the battery on a pulse width limited basis. >> >> Seems that those high voltage pulses, brief as they may be thanks to >> the PWM, are still none the less able to slowly raise the resting >> terminal voltage of at least some types of AGM batteries. >> >> I don't know enough about batteries to know if that is a problem or >> not. Perhaps its perfectly normal as almost any new lead acid battery >> will retain a higher than normal measurable "ghost voltage" just after >> it has been fully charged. >> >> JARMO >> >> >> _____________________________________________________________________________________* >> >> Jarmo Venalainen* | *Schneider Electric **| Xantrex Brand* | >> *CANADA* | *Sales Application Engineer* * >> Phone:* _+604-422-2528_ | *Tech Support:* >> _800-670-0707_ | *Mobile:* _+604-505-0291_ >> * >> Email:* _jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com_ >> | >> *Site:*_www.Xantrex.com_ | *Address:* 3700 >> Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail >> >> >> From: Drake <_drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org_ >> > >> To: RE-wrenches <_re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org_ >> >, >> Date: 05/20/2015 11:11 AM >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fw: Xantrex C-40 Drifting >> Sent by: "RE-wrenches" <_re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org_ >> > >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> >> >> The modules are Sunwise 22 V, 40 W modules. The model number of the >> modules is SW-S40P SWT. The are wired in series for a 24 V nominal >> system. That would be an mppt voltage of 44 V on a system that >> directs batteries to absorb at 29.4 volts. I'm not sure what the NOCT >> voltage would be, but it would seem like it would be an ok fit? >> >> I think you are on the right track with the MPPT charging graph. The >> CC likely allows pulses of full charge to hit when the batteries are >> at their maximum set point voltage. >> >> Would a very short pulse of high voltage be a problem of a VRLA >> battery? Could any significant gassing take place? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> >> >> >> At 06:04 PM 5/19/2015, you wrote: >> Hi: >> >> We haven't changed anything the in C40. The essence of my idea was >> that perhaps the "trouble" systems are the ones which have much higher >> module Voc versus battery Vfloat. >> >> JARMO >> _____________________________________________________________________________________* >> >> Jarmo Venalainen* | *Schneider Electric ** | Xantrex Brand* | >> *CANADA* | *Sales Application Engineer* * >> Phone:* _+604-422-2528_ | *Tech Support:* >> _800-670-0707_ | *Mobile:* _+604-505-0291_ >> * >> Email:* _jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com_ >> | *Site:*__ >> _www.Xantrex.com_ >> __ | *Address:* 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, >> BC V5G4M1 _ >> _[] __[] [] >> [] >> >> >> *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail >> >> >> >> From:Ray Walters <_ray at solarray.com_ > >> To:RE-wrenches <_re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org_ >> >, >> Date:05/19/2015 11:00 AM >> Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Fw: Xantrex C-40 Drifting >> Sent by:"RE-wrenches" <_re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org_ >> > >> >> >> >> >> Hi Jarmo; >> >> Early solar systems actually tried to use the principle of matching >> array Vmpp to battery voltage in lieu of charge controllers. The >> biggest issue is that when it is is hot the module voltage can drop >> below the battery voltage needed, and when its cold the voltage will >> still be too high. Batteries were either over charged or never >> reached full charge depending on the conditions. >> I've used the C40 successfully for decades, so I'm wondering if the >> circuitry changed recently, or if different tolerance components were >> substituted that may be causing the drift? >> >> Thanks, >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer_ >> __303 505-8760_ >> On 5/19/2015 10:31 AM, _Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com_ >> wrote: >> Hi: >> >> I didn't know that there were systems out there where a PWM charge >> controller such as the C-40 was producing an unhealthy, high battery >> voltage. Since there are, I may have a possible explanation. >> >> The C-series and other PWM type charge controllers operate by PWM >> whereby they very very quickly connect/disconnect the solar module to >> the battery bank. The amount of time which the module is connected to >> the array is the PWM on-period. These controllers do not have the >> ability to "smooth out" the output voltage. All they can do is apply >> the full module voltage OR not a >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From wayne at pureenergysolar.com Thu May 21 19:28:47 2015 From: wayne at pureenergysolar.com (Wayne Irwin) Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 19:28:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lightning Strike Fries Array Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, Today we visited a 10KW residential ground mounted system where there was a recent lightning strike that fried phones, irrigation system, cable and apparently the array. There was no external visible damage but also no voltage at the combiner. We pulled 10-15 module junction box covers off and only saw clear evidence of damage to one diode. There was no Voc on any of the modules. While I recognize that Florida is arguably the lightning capital of N America, I have never seen an entire array fried. Has anyone on the list ever seen an entire array fried? The modules are Schuco 230's. Obviously not covered by warranty and Schuco has pretty much bailed out of the US market. Does anyone have experience repairing these modules? Any similar experience and/or advice would be appreciated. Wayne Irwin, President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com http://PureEnergySolar.com http://SolarChargingStation.net 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax 352 316-1637 Cell The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at getpimby.com Thu May 21 19:46:06 2015 From: matt at getpimby.com (Matt Sherald) Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 19:46:06 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lightning Strike Fries Array In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Wayne, Several years back I had all sixteen SolarWorld modules on a tracker get zapped. The two other trackers adjacent to this one had no damaged modules. The same strike blew out the phone box at the end of the road (some distance away). The SolarWorld jboxes were all sealed with no way to get to the diodes. The homeowners insurance covered the loss and I replaced the modules with something similar (SW had since stopped manufacturing 175s). It would have been nice to have had access to the diodes. -- Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® 304-704-5943 www.getpimby.blogspot.com www.getpimby.com On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 7:28 PM, Wayne Irwin wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > Today we visited a 10KW residential ground mounted system where there was > a recent lightning strike that fried phones, irrigation system, cable and > apparently the array. > > There was no external visible damage but also no voltage at the combiner. > We pulled 10-15 module junction box covers off and only saw clear evidence > of damage to one diode. There was no Voc on any of the modules. > While I recognize that Florida is arguably the lightning capital of N > America, I have never seen an entire array fried. > > Has anyone on the list ever seen an entire array fried? > > The modules are Schuco 230's. > Obviously not covered by warranty and Schuco has pretty much bailed out of > the US market. > > Does anyone have experience repairing these modules? > > Any similar experience and/or advice would be appreciated. > > > Wayne Irwin, > President > License #CVC56695 > State Licensed Solar Contractor > Pure Energy Solar International Inc. > Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com > http://PureEnergySolar.com > http://SolarChargingStation.net > 352 377-6527 Office > 352 336-3299 Fax > 352 316-1637 Cell > > The Sun Is Always Shining! > > The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are > not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use > or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail > and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® 304-704-5943 www.getpimby.blogspot.com www.getpimby.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Richard.L.Ratico at VALLEY.NET Thu May 21 18:04:13 2015 From: Richard.L.Ratico at VALLEY.NET (Richard L Ratico) Date: 21 May 2015 18:04:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery setpoints with larger arrays Message-ID: <178804150@retriever.VALLEY.NET> Hi Allan, Like you, we now design for larger arrays and smaller batteries, but have not yet tweaked CC settings as well. Our Vermont weather is a bit different than yours to say the least, though tweaks may still be something to consider. Batteries do use more water. I've installed, and will continue to encourage customers to purchase and install battery watering systems as well as go with a single string of cells. Anything that makes the watering chore easier is sure to help batteries achieve their design potential. And, thanks for offering to send me the info on the Whisper wind turbine awhile back. I decided it was best to take a pass on that job. Dick Ratico Solarwind Electric From toddcory at finestplanet.com Thu May 21 20:38:02 2015 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 17:38:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lightning Strike Fries Array In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1432255082.035725215@webmail.finestplanet.com> but under a surge like a lightning strike wouldn't the diodes open rather than short? i always considered the pv's to be the least likely thing to be damaged from lightning and inverters and charge controllers (electronics) to be the most vulnerable. what in a pv would fail? an intercell connecting wire or would it actually damage the cell on a semiconductor level? todd On Thursday, May 21, 2015 4:46pm, "Matt Sherald" said: Hi Wayne, Several years back I had all sixteen SolarWorld modules on a tracker get zapped. The two other trackers adjacent to this one had no damaged modules. The same strike blew out the phone box at the end of the road (some distance away). The SolarWorld jboxes were all sealed with no way to get to the diodes. The homeowners insurance covered the loss and I replaced the modules with something similar (SW had since stopped manufacturing 175s). It would have been nice to have had access to the diodes. -- Matt SheraldPIMBY Energy, LLC NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer®304-704-5943 [ www.getpimby.blogspot.com ]( http://www.getpimby.blogspot.com )[ www.getpimby.com ]( http://www.getpimby.com ) On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 7:28 PM, Wayne Irwin <[ wayne at pureenergysolar.com ]( mailto:wayne at pureenergysolar.com )> wrote: Hello Wrenches, Today we visited a 10KW residential ground mounted system where there was a recent lightning strike that fried phones, irrigation system, cable and apparently the array. There was no external visible damage but also no voltage at the combiner. We pulled 10-15 module junction box covers off and only saw clear evidence of damage to one diode. There was no Voc on any of the modules. While I recognize that Florida is arguably the lightning capital of N America, I have never seen an entire array fried. Has anyone on the list ever seen an entire array fried? The modules are Schuco 230's. Obviously not covered by warranty and Schuco has pretty much bailed out of the US market. Does anyone have experience repairing these modules? Any similar experience and/or advice would be appreciated. Wayne Irwin, President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. [ Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com ]( mailto:PureEnergySolar at hotmail.com ) [ ]( http://pureenergysolar.net/ )[ http://PureEnergySolar.com ]( http://PureEnergySolar.com ) [ http://SolarChargingStation.net ]( https://solarchargingstation.net ) [ 352 377-6527 ]( tel:352%20377-6527 ) Office [ 352 336-3299 ]( tel:352%20336-3299 ) Fax [ 352 316-1637 ]( tel:352%20316-1637 ) Cell The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: [ RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ) Change listserver email address & settings: [ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ]( http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ) List-Archive: [ http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html ]( http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html ) List rules & etiquette: [ www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ]( http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ) Check out or update participant bios: [ www.members.re-wrenches.org ]( http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ) -- Matt SheraldPIMBY Energy, LLC NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer®304-704-5943 [ www.getpimby.blogspot.com ]( http://www.getpimby.blogspot.com ) [ www.getpimby.com ]( http://www.getpimby.com ) Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Thu May 21 21:55:24 2015 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 21:55:24 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] UL 508 Listing Message-ID: Wrenchers, I am interested in using a 6 Pole DC disconnect for a project with TL inverters. It’s made by a company called DC SunVolt. The data sheet says “Suitable as PV disconnect switch in accordance with Article 690 of NFPA (NEC) UL 508, including the requirements for PV applications. UL 508i by UL”. IT IS NOT UL 1741 listed though. My understanding is that this is OK , because it’s not a combiner…it’s just a switch (6 conductors in and 6 conductors out). A colleague expressed concern that an inspector might give me a warm time about it. I’ve reached out repeatedly to the inspector and not heard back. Anyone have thoughts? Thanks Adam Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies 4872 State Route 9G Germantown NY, 12526 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From louis at woofenden.net Thu May 21 23:44:45 2015 From: louis at woofenden.net (Louis Woofenden) Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 20:44:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Milwaukee Sub Scanner versus Bosch D-Tect versus others? In-Reply-To: <05aa8024c03543b8329c4489511298e4@mail.gmail.com> References: <94d17a5bba69a410182bf7cd4edaf8ea.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> <05aa8024c03543b8329c4489511298e4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <555EA62D.7020104@woofenden.net> August and all, Been meaning to post these, but keep forgetting when I'm on the correct computer. These were taken on my roof with a FLIR E4 (about $1000) in January. Probably an unfair advantage, as the house was warm, and I don't have very good insulation in my roof. Haven't had a chance to use the E4 much on customer sites. I'm just too used to picking up the hammer, tape measure, and taking clues from vents, skylights, etc. Best, Louis > August Goers > May 11, 2015 at 12:45 PM > Wrenches, > > We have a Bosch D-tect 100 and Milwaukee M12 sub-scanner. The Milwaukee is > one of the most worthless stud finders I have ever used. It might be > helpful for scanning concrete but is basically useless for any other > scanning task that I've tried. It definitely won't work on a roof. > > The D-tect has been helpful for rooftop use over the years. It is also > helpful for scanning concrete to find rebar and post-tension cables. > Although I can't say that it should be relied on to find post-tension > cables (that is a big liability)! > > In order to use the D-tect on the roof you have a use a thin piece of > cardboard (like a manila folder) or a thin flexible cutting board to get > it to roll properly. It is not easy and takes quite a bit of finesse. It > has, however, been able to find rafters in difficult cases where hammers > and other tricks aren't working well. There is no question that it is > difficult to use on comp shingle or other bumpy roofs and I've found that > most of our installers give up before getting any benefit. > > The bottom line is that the old fashioned hammer and measuring up from > below is the best way to reliably find rafters. You might find an > occasional roof where the D-tect will help but for the most part it is > more finicky than it is worth on a roof. > > Has anyone tried using an infrared camera to see rafters in the morning > when there might be a temperature differential? I've been wanting to give > that a try but haven't yet. > > Best, > > August > > -- > Louis Woofenden > Engineering Director > Net Zero Solar, LLC > 101. W. 5th St., Tucson, AZ 85705 > Arizona ROC #248710, 259756, 259521 > > Phone:520.207.4053 Ex. 2 > Cell:520.237.5040 > Fax:520.203.7230 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional^(TM) > NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer^(TM) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: compose-unknown-contact.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 770 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: FLIR0013.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 51865 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: FLIR0012.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 62458 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Richard.L.Ratico at VALLEY.NET Thu May 21 20:35:22 2015 From: Richard.L.Ratico at VALLEY.NET (Richard L Ratico) Date: 21 May 2015 20:35:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lightning Strike Fries Array Message-ID: <178806000@retriever.VALLEY.NET> Wayne, Never had an entire array fried. My experience consists of a total of less than 10 modules out of a total of maybe 50 at two different sites. One site had the much more common (these days) modules with leads and diodes potted in an epoxy-like material. We use a Dremel tool with a burr bit to access the diodes. Pretty labor intensive, but modules of the right size were no longer available. If the junction boxes have removeable covers, that's half the battle won. You can test the individual diodes and cell strings. Diodes are inexpensive and not too hard to replace. I think we got them through Mouser. Dick Ratico Solarwind Electric --- You wrote: Hi Wayne, Several years back I had all sixteen SolarWorld modules on a tracker get zapped. The two other trackers adjacent to this one had no damaged modules. The same strike blew out the phone box at the end of the road (some distance away). The SolarWorld jboxes were all sealed with no way to get to the diodes. The homeowners insurance covered the loss and I replaced the modules with something similar (SW had since stopped manufacturing 175s). It would have been nice to have had access to the diodes. -- Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer^AE 304-704-5943 www.getpimby.blogspot.com www.getpimby.com On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 7:28 PM, Wayne Irwin wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > Today we visited a 10KW residential ground mounted system where there was > a recent lightning strike that fried phones, irrigation system, cable and > apparently the array. > > There was no external visible damage but also no voltage at the combiner. > We pulled 10-15 module junction box covers off and only saw clear evidence > of damage to one diode. There was no Voc on any of the modules. > While I recognize that Florida is arguably the lightning capital of N > America, I have never seen an entire array fried. > > Has anyone on the list ever seen an entire array fried? > > The modules are Schuco 230's. > Obviously not covered by warranty and Schuco has pretty much bailed out of > the US market. > > Does anyone have experience repairing these modules? > > Any similar experience and/or advice would be appreciated. > > > Wayne Irwin, --- end of quote --- From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu May 21 22:50:54 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay peltz) Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 19:50:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lightning Strike Fries Array In-Reply-To: <1432255082.035725215@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <1432255082.035725215@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: Hi Guys, The high current can be in the form of higher irradience, not the current in the lightning. That can destroy the diodes. you should be able to test on the module side of the diodes to see if there is voltage on the cell side. And that will tell you if its worth trying to replace the diodes. jay On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 5:38 PM, wrote: > but under a surge like a lightning strike wouldn't the diodes open rather > than short? > > > > i always considered the pv's to be the least likely thing to be damaged > from lightning and inverters and charge controllers (electronics) to be the > most vulnerable. what in a pv would fail? an intercell connecting wire or > would it actually damage the cell on a semiconductor level? > > > > todd > > > > > > > > On Thursday, May 21, 2015 4:46pm, "Matt Sherald" said: > > Hi Wayne, > > Several years back I had all sixteen SolarWorld modules on a tracker get > zapped. The two other trackers adjacent to this one had no damaged > modules. The same strike blew out the phone box at the end of the road > (some distance away). > > The SolarWorld jboxes were all sealed with no way to get to the diodes. > The homeowners insurance covered the loss and I replaced the modules with > something similar (SW had since stopped manufacturing 175s). It would have > been nice to have had access to the diodes. > > > -- > Matt Sherald > PIMBY Energy, LLC > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® > 304-704-5943 > > www.getpimby.blogspot.com > www.getpimby.com > > On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 7:28 PM, Wayne Irwin > wrote: > >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> Today we visited a 10KW residential ground mounted system where there was >> a recent lightning strike that fried phones, irrigation system, cable and >> apparently the array. >> >> There was no external visible damage but also no voltage at the combiner. >> We pulled 10-15 module junction box covers off and only saw clear evidence >> of damage to one diode. There was no Voc on any of the modules. >> While I recognize that Florida is arguably the lightning capital of N >> America, I have never seen an entire array fried. >> >> Has anyone on the list ever seen an entire array fried? >> >> The modules are Schuco 230's. >> Obviously not covered by warranty and Schuco has pretty much bailed out >> of the US market. >> >> Does anyone have experience repairing these modules? >> >> Any similar experience and/or advice would be appreciated. >> >> >> Wayne Irwin, >> Presid >> ____ >> > > > > -- Jay Peltz Peltz Power jay.peltz at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu May 21 23:07:47 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay peltz) Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 20:07:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery setpoints with larger arrays In-Reply-To: <555E1C3F.40503@sindelarsolar.com> References: <555E1C3F.40503@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Hi Allan, I like the classic/wiz bang jr. This allows really good end amp control as all loads are accounted for. Higher C rates equal higher internal temps which definitely will shorten the life. On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 10:56 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > Wrenches, > In the last few years I have changed my approach to off grid system > sizing, primarily due to higher battery costs and lower module costs. > Rather than shooting for a traditional 80-90% of winter load profile > target, I will size a larger array and smaller battery bank, figuring > (especially here in the sunny Southwest) that batteries will recharge more > quickly, will spend more of their time full (and thus last longer), and > will be at least partially charged during cloudy weather. This even allows > for smaller battery banks that are cycled more deeply (as long as there's a > backup gennie in the mix); the lower cost of a smaller size may allow for a > set of higher-quality industrial cells. > > I first began to rethink my design approach after reading Christopher > Freitas' Solar Pro article on large battery banks a few years ago. Being > able to refill in a day was part of his strategic approach to battery bank > design. I used and wrote about this approach in my tiny house article in > the current Home Power. However, I'm just beginning to get owner feedback > about greater water consumption and the need for more frequent watering. > This is especially the case when I add array to an existing system, and the > old watering schedule is suddenly not enough. > > When I design new systems I now encourage larger arrays and smaller > battery banks, as the batteries spend more of their time happily full and > recover more quickly after a discharge period. But I am thinking that I > will have to begin changing charging setpoints in response. Flooded > batteries have a range of recommended bulk setpoints, from 28.8 to 29.6 > volts on a 24V system. When arrays were smaller we set to the higher end of > the range to take advantage of topping off when available, and a two hour > or longer absorption was considered beneficial, as long as the CC could > transition to float at 2% of capacity or so. With a larger array a better > approach may be to lower the bulk/absorption setting, as well as reduce > absorption time and raise the float transition current ("done amps"). > > I'm writing to encourage a discussion among off grid Wrenches. Are you > changing the relative relationship between array and battery capacities? If > so, how are you adjusting charge controller setpoint programming? For > example, how would you program a Midnite Classic, Outback FM or Schneider > XW if you could achieve a C/10 or C/15 charge rate? > > Thanks, Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* > > > -- Jay Peltz Peltz Power jay.peltz at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu May 21 23:14:41 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay peltz) Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 20:14:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery setpoints with larger arrays In-Reply-To: References: <555E1C3F.40503@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Sorry about that. I'd like to hear Steve Higgens view on all this. And the Classic I think has the best adjustments for end of charge time/amps etc. Curious why you would raise the end amps with large array/small bank? jay > Jay Peltz Peltz Power jay.peltz at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Fri May 22 10:37:25 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 08:37:25 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery setpoints with larger arrays In-Reply-To: References: <555E1C3F.40503@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <555F3F25.4090809@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Gary at hudsonsolar.com Fri May 22 12:16:09 2015 From: Gary at hudsonsolar.com (Gary Bassett) Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 16:16:09 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lightning Strike Fries Array In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005652ca24e64dd79592b496f09748e1@Hosted-MS-3.elcomp.local> We had the fortunate luck of having lightning strikes a two Schuco ground mount arrays one with Schuco 180's the other one was with Schuco 230's. In both cases there were damaged diodes on a few there was visable damage to the junction box due to heat. For the most part it required testing of all the diodes. For the Schuco 230's we replaced the diodes from [cid:image003.png at 01D09489.3AB20500] Part # information 621-SBR12A45SD1-T MFG Part No:SBR12A45SD1-T Diodes Incorporated Schottky Diode US HTS:8541100080 ECCN:EAR99 COO:CN Gary [cid:55B44DB1-8648-4A44-97C2-50FBD3E2B4BD] Gary Bassett Engineering Manager Hudson Solar 13 Hook Road Rhinebeck, NY T: (866) 452-7652 x113 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional HudsonSolar.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Wayne Irwin Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2015 7:29 PM To: Wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lightning Strike Fries Array Hello Wrenches, Today we visited a 10KW residential ground mounted system where there was a recent lightning strike that fried phones, irrigation system, cable and apparently the array. There was no external visible damage but also no voltage at the combiner. We pulled 10-15 module junction box covers off and only saw clear evidence of damage to one diode. There was no Voc on any of the modules. While I recognize that Florida is arguably the lightning capital of N America, I have never seen an entire array fried. Has anyone on the list ever seen an entire array fried? The modules are Schuco 230's. Obviously not covered by warranty and Schuco has pretty much bailed out of the US market. Does anyone have experience repairing these modules? Any similar experience and/or advice would be appreciated. Wayne Irwin, President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com http://PureEnergySolar.com http://SolarChargingStation.net 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax 352 316-1637 Cell The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 3144 bytes Desc: image003.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 4809 bytes Desc: image004.jpg URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri May 22 12:53:08 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 10:53:08 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery setpoints with larger arrays In-Reply-To: <555E1C3F.40503@sindelarsolar.com> References: <555E1C3F.40503@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <555F5EF4.9060601@solarray.com> Hi Allan; This is an interesting thread, as all of us ( I think) have gone heavier on the solar arrays and lighter on the battery banks based on economics. I too have noticed higher gassing and more water consumption, and I too have adjusted set points down slightly to account for this. I think that it is really too early to tell what this will mean for battery life. While the batteries will be reaching full charge more often as you noted, they also will be cycled more deeply on a regular basis. I also have concerns with acid loss, and over heating; both of which lead to shorter battery life. Over the years I've actually found that my systems with larger battery banks lasted a long time because daily cycles were shallower, but as you noted it depends on whether the user makes sure they reach full charge regularly. Without proper management, heavy banks can be stuck in Purgatory: never fully discharged, but never fully charged either. Meanwhile small battery banks are being charged and discharged at much higher rates, which is both less efficient and creates additional heat. With this design trend to smaller battery banks, I think we all need to revisit our thermal management strategies as well. The old days of super insulating the battery box can actually lead to serious battery over heating. Midnite Solar is looking at adding charge disconnect programming based on the temp sensor. Basically, most batteries need to be completely disconnected from a charge source at battery temps over 105F. Cycle life deteriorates rapidly at temperatures over 85F. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 5/21/2015 11:56 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > Wrenches, > In the last few years I have changed my approach to off grid system > sizing, primarily due to higher battery costs and lower module costs. > Rather than shooting for a traditional 80-90% of winter load profile > target, I will size a larger array and smaller battery bank, figuring > (especially here in the sunny Southwest) that batteries will recharge > more quickly, will spend more of their time full (and thus last > longer), and will be at least partially charged during cloudy weather. > This even allows for smaller battery banks that are cycled more deeply > (as long as there's a backup gennie in the mix); the lower cost of a > smaller size may allow for a set of higher-quality industrial cells. > > I first began to rethink my design approach after reading Christopher > Freitas' Solar Pro article on large battery banks a few years ago. > Being able to refill in a day was part of his strategic approach to > battery bank design. I used and wrote about this approach in my tiny > house article in the current Home Power. However, I'm just beginning > to get owner feedback about greater water consumption and the need for > more frequent watering. This is especially the case when I add array > to an existing system, and the old watering schedule is suddenly not > enough. > > When I design new systems I now encourage larger arrays and smaller > battery banks, as the batteries spend more of their time happily full > and recover more quickly after a discharge period. But I am thinking > that I will have to begin changing charging setpoints in response. > Flooded batteries have a range of recommended bulk setpoints, from > 28.8 to 29.6 volts on a 24V system. When arrays were smaller we set to > the higher end of the range to take advantage of topping off when > available, and a two hour or longer absorption was considered > beneficial, as long as the CC could transition to float at 2% of > capacity or so. With a larger array a better approach may be to lower > the bulk/absorption setting, as well as reduce absorption time and > raise the float transition current ("done amps"). > > I'm writing to encourage a discussion among off grid Wrenches. Are you > changing the relative relationship between array and battery > capacities? If so, how are you adjusting charge controller setpoint > programming? For example, how would you program a Midnite Classic, > Outback FM or Schneider XW if you could achieve a C/10 or C/15 charge > rate? > > Thanks, Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > ** > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Fri May 22 10:28:12 2015 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 07:28:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery setpoints with larger arrays References: <555E1C3F.40503@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <609229E21C2B4D109453FE0CE1F8D323@D8XG8YH1> Hey Jay, From what I've heard form battery manus, the C rates likely even in a well PV-ed system still will not produce C-rates high enough to approach a high or "longevity reducing" internal battery temp, assuming a typical bulk, absorb, float cycle. Of course, battery environmental location (typical temps) would set a baseline from which batt temp would rise from. Here in the Sierra, ambients are not very high 95% of the time. Just curious, how does the wiz bang account for all loads...2 shunts? Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric ----- Original Message ----- From: jay peltz To: RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2015 8:07 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery setpoints with larger arrays Hi Allan, I like the classic/wiz bang jr. This allows really good end amp control as all loads are accounted for. Higher C rates equal higher internal temps which definitely will shorten the life. On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 10:56 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: Wrenches, In the last few years I have changed my approach to off grid system sizing, primarily due to higher battery costs and lower module costs. Rather than shooting for a traditional 80-90% of winter load profile target, I will size a larger array and smaller battery bank, figuring (especially here in the sunny Southwest) that batteries will recharge more quickly, will spend more of their time full (and thus last longer), and will be at least partially charged during cloudy weather. This even allows for smaller battery banks that are cycled more deeply (as long as there's a backup gennie in the mix); the lower cost of a smaller size may allow for a set of higher-quality industrial cells. I first began to rethink my design approach after reading Christopher Freitas' Solar Pro article on large battery banks a few years ago. Being able to refill in a day was part of his strategic approach to battery bank design. I used and wrote about this approach in my tiny house article in the current Home Power. However, I'm just beginning to get owner feedback about greater water consumption and the need for more frequent watering. This is especially the case when I add array to an existing system, and the old watering schedule is suddenly not enough. When I design new systems I now encourage larger arrays and smaller battery banks, as the batteries spend more of their time happily full and recover more quickly after a discharge period. But I am thinking that I will have to begin changing charging setpoints in response. Flooded batteries have a range of recommended bulk setpoints, from 28.8 to 29.6 volts on a 24V system. When arrays were smaller we set to the higher end of the range to take advantage of topping off when available, and a two hour or longer absorption was considered beneficial, as long as the CC could transition to float at 2% of capacity or so. With a larger array a better approach may be to lower the bulk/absorption setting, as well as reduce absorption time and raise the float transition current ("done amps"). I'm writing to encourage a discussion among off grid Wrenches. Are you changing the relative relationship between array and battery capacities? If so, how are you adjusting charge controller setpoint programming? For example, how would you program a Midnite Classic, Outback FM or Schneider XW if you could achieve a C/10 or C/15 charge rate? Thanks, Allan Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell -- Jay Peltz Peltz Power jay.peltz at gmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Fri May 22 13:17:16 2015 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 11:17:16 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery setpoints with larger arrays In-Reply-To: <609229E21C2B4D109453FE0CE1F8D323@D8XG8YH1> References: <555E1C3F.40503@sindelarsolar.com> <609229E21C2B4D109453FE0CE1F8D323@D8XG8YH1> Message-ID: Bill; The Whizbang can mount on the main shunt, and has an included mounting option that lets you piggyback the wires from another amp-hourt meter on it. I have mine with a magnum ME-BMK piggybacked on it. Dan Fink Buckville Energy IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 8:28 AM, frenergy wrote: > Hey Jay, > > From what I've heard form battery manus, the C rates likely > even in a well PV-ed system still will not produce C-rates high enough to > approach a high or "longevity reducing" internal battery temp, assuming a > typical bulk, absorb, float cycle. Of course, battery environmental > location (typical temps) would set a baseline from which batt temp would > rise from. Here in the Sierra, ambients are not very high 95% of the time. > > Just curious, how does the wiz bang account for all loads...2 > shunts? > > Thanks, > > Bill > Feather River Solar Electric > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* jay peltz > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Thursday, May 21, 2015 8:07 PM > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery setpoints with larger arrays > > Hi Allan, > > I like the classic/wiz bang jr. This allows really good end amp control > as all loads are accounted for. > > Higher C rates equal higher internal temps which definitely will shorten > the life. > > On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 10:56 AM, Allan Sindelar > wrote: > >> Wrenches, >> In the last few years I have changed my approach to off grid system >> sizing, primarily due to higher battery costs and lower module costs. >> Rather than shooting for a traditional 80-90% of winter load profile >> target, I will size a larger array and smaller battery bank, figuring >> (especially here in the sunny Southwest) that batteries will recharge more >> quickly, will spend more of their time full (and thus last longer), and >> will be at least partially charged during cloudy weather. This even allows >> for smaller battery banks that are cycled more deeply (as long as there's a >> backup gennie in the mix); the lower cost of a smaller size may allow for a >> set of higher-quality industrial cells. >> >> I first began to rethink my design approach after reading Christopher >> Freitas' Solar Pro article on large battery banks a few years ago. Being >> able to refill in a day was part of his strategic approach to battery bank >> design. I used and wrote about this approach in my tiny house article in >> the current Home Power. However, I'm just beginning to get owner feedback >> about greater water consumption and the need for more frequent watering. >> This is especially the case when I add array to an existing system, and the >> old watering schedule is suddenly not enough. >> >> When I design new systems I now encourage larger arrays and smaller >> battery banks, as the batteries spend more of their time happily full and >> recover more quickly after a discharge period. But I am thinking that I >> will have to begin changing charging setpoints in response. Flooded >> batteries have a range of recommended bulk setpoints, from 28.8 to 29.6 >> volts on a 24V system. When arrays were smaller we set to the higher end of >> the range to take advantage of topping off when available, and a two hour >> or longer absorption was considered beneficial, as long as the CC could >> transition to float at 2% of capacity or so. With a larger array a better >> approach may be to lower the bulk/absorption setting, as well as reduce >> absorption time and raise the float transition current ("done amps"). >> >> I'm writing to encourage a discussion among off grid Wrenches. Are you >> changing the relative relationship between array and battery capacities? If >> so, how are you adjusting charge controller setpoint programming? For >> example, how would you program a Midnite Classic, Outback FM or Schneider >> XW if you could achieve a C/10 or C/15 charge rate? >> >> Thanks, Allan >> >> *Allan Sindelar* >> allan at sindelarsolar.com >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional >> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >> *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* >> >> >> >> > > -- > Jay Peltz > Peltz Power > jay.peltz at gmail.com > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Fri May 22 14:38:57 2015 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 18:38:57 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery set points with larger arrays Message-ID: <414D424906AE60489EF1829E1EFA55712C9C67E9@sbc-exch.sbcdomain.local> Hey guys… I’ve attached a white paper link that I’ve been working on(below)… This white paper has to do with Rolls Batteries and starting set points… The WP is prerelease and frankly I’m done looking at it as I need to move on to the next. I don’t think that I’ll ever be accused of being a writer! The next one will be addressing the changes you will need to make to Off-Grid system settings based on SG, and Load test measurements… Just a note, I’ve tried to keep the system examples as generic as possible, thanks. If you have any constructive, or even destructive criticism I will be happy to accept off list at steve at surrette.com. The majority of the systems I see, the batteries are in a state of severe deficit cycling, and undercharged… The root of the problem is, every system the end users are all different, thus if you install the same system in 10 different locations you can get easily 5 different setups. Yes, I too like to undersize the battery bank, and yes that does tend to use up more water than you would if you had a larger battery bank. I personally would rather “use up” the battery rather than under use it and have to replace early anyway due to undercharging. This is where flooded batteries are best… that is if you have the time you can play with the settings… Adjusting Float voltage a bit higher 2.3vpc instead of 2.2vpc. This will lower gassing rates, but a higher float voltage could shorten absorb times. Higher Absorb Voltages, with shorter absorb times.. This will shorten the overall cycle, but may use up water faster… In colder climates this could be an option. Lower Absorb Voltage for longer periods. This will lengthen your overall absorb timers, but won’t go thru water as fast. The gist is… there are many ways to charge a battery…. The bottom line is on systems where you are cycling the battery bank hard every 1-2 days it’s a good idea to run thru a full absorb cycle about every 7-10 days… On a system where you are cycling every 4-5 days you can go about 20-30 days between full absorb cycles. Link to White Paper!.. https://www.dropbox.com/s/bxm8x7456n7g5cg/Technote%20System%20Settings%20for%20Flooded%20Off%20Grid.pdf?dl=0 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dan Fink Sent: Friday, May 22, 2015 10:17 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery setpoints with larger arrays Bill; The Whizbang can mount on the main shunt, and has an included mounting option that lets you piggyback the wires from another amp-hourt meter on it. I have mine with a magnum ME-BMK piggybacked on it. Dan Fink Buckville Energy IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 8:28 AM, frenergy > wrote: Hey Jay, From what I've heard form battery manus, the C rates likely even in a well PV-ed system still will not produce C-rates high enough to approach a high or "longevity reducing" internal battery temp, assuming a typical bulk, absorb, float cycle. Of course, battery environmental location (typical temps) would set a baseline from which batt temp would rise from. Here in the Sierra, ambients are not very high 95% of the time. Just curious, how does the wiz bang account for all loads...2 shunts? Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Steve Higgins Technical Services Manager P: +1.902.597.4020 M: +1.206.790.5840 F: +1.902.597.8447 Surrette Battery Company Exclusive manufacturer of [cid:rolls656db1] ----- Original Message ----- From: jay peltz To: RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2015 8:07 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery setpoints with larger arrays Hi Allan, I like the classic/wiz bang jr. This allows really good end amp control as all loads are accounted for. Higher C rates equal higher internal temps which definitely will shorten the life. On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 10:56 AM, Allan Sindelar > wrote: Wrenches, In the last few years I have changed my approach to off grid system sizing, primarily due to higher battery costs and lower module costs. Rather than shooting for a traditional 80-90% of winter load profile target, I will size a larger array and smaller battery bank, figuring (especially here in the sunny Southwest) that batteries will recharge more quickly, will spend more of their time full (and thus last longer), and will be at least partially charged during cloudy weather. This even allows for smaller battery banks that are cycled more deeply (as long as there's a backup gennie in the mix); the lower cost of a smaller size may allow for a set of higher-quality industrial cells. I first began to rethink my design approach after reading Christopher Freitas' Solar Pro article on large battery banks a few years ago. Being able to refill in a day was part of his strategic approach to battery bank design. I used and wrote about this approach in my tiny house article in the current Home Power. However, I'm just beginning to get owner feedback about greater water consumption and the need for more frequent watering. This is especially the case when I add array to an existing system, and the old watering schedule is suddenly not enough. When I design new systems I now encourage larger arrays and smaller battery banks, as the batteries spend more of their time happily full and recover more quickly after a discharge period. But I am thinking that I will have to begin changing charging setpoints in response. Flooded batteries have a range of recommended bulk setpoints, from 28.8 to 29.6 volts on a 24V system. When arrays were smaller we set to the higher end of the range to take advantage of topping off when available, and a two hour or longer absorption was considered beneficial, as long as the CC could transition to float at 2% of capacity or so. With a larger array a better approach may be to lower the bulk/absorption setting, as well as reduce absorption time and raise the float transition current ("done amps"). I'm writing to encourage a discussion among off grid Wrenches. Are you changing the relative relationship between array and battery capacities? If so, how are you adjusting charge controller setpoint programming? For example, how would you program a Midnite Classic, Outback FM or Schneider XW if you could achieve a C/10 or C/15 charge rate? Thanks, Allan Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell -- Jay Peltz Peltz Power jay.peltz at gmail.com ________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org This email and its attachments have been scanned by mailWatch E-Mail Firewall for viruses, spam, and malicious content. 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Name: rolls656db1 Type: image/jpeg Size: 11941 bytes Desc: rolls656db1 URL: From boB at midnitesolar.com Fri May 22 14:47:20 2015 From: boB at midnitesolar.com (boB at midnitesolar.com) Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 11:47:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery setpoints with larger arrays In-Reply-To: References: <555E1C3F.40503@sindelarsolar.com> <609229E21C2B4D109453FE0CE1F8D323@D8XG8YH1> Message-ID: <555F79B8.3060009@midnitesolar.com> In addition, when someone leaves the system for long periods of time, the ending amps can help BUT that is not the same as giving them a good de-sulfating Absorb cycle once in a while. This is where it is nice to give them a good Absorb for some hours without the ending amps but only every so often. Maybe once per week or two ? Jay and I talked about a "Vacation Mode" a while back.. The Classic can be set to skip a number of days of Bulk/Absorb cycles. This works well. You can also set a high battery temperature to stop charging at. It's in one of the CHARGE menus. There are all sorts of neat things you could do to keep FLA batteries alive longer I think. Like what Kent Osterberg in Oregon mentioned... Every so many days, start a timed Absorb after the current has fallen below ending amps. So many good ideas, so little time ! boB On 5/22/2015 10:17 AM, Dan Fink wrote: > Bill; The Whizbang can mount on the main shunt, and has an included > mounting option that lets you piggyback the wires from another > amp-hourt meter on it. I have mine with a magnum ME-BMK piggybacked on it. > > Dan Fink > Buckville Energy > IREC Certified Instructorâ„¢ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providersâ„¢ > 970.672.4342 > > > On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 8:28 AM, frenergy > wrote: > > Hey Jay, > From what I've heard form battery manus, the C rates > likely even in a well PV-ed system still will not produce C-rates > high enough to approach a high or "longevity reducing" internal > battery temp, assuming a typical bulk, absorb, float cycle. Of > course, battery environmental location (typical temps) would set a > baseline from which batt temp would rise from. Here in the > Sierra, ambients are not very high 95% of the time. > Just curious, how does the wiz bang account for all > loads...2 shunts? > Thanks, > Bill > Feather River Solar Electric > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* jay peltz > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Thursday, May 21, 2015 8:07 PM > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery setpoints with larger > arrays > > Hi Allan, > > I like the classic/wiz bang jr. This allows really good end > amp control as all loads are accounted for. > > Higher C rates equal higher internal temps which definitely > will shorten the life. > > On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 10:56 AM, Allan Sindelar > > wrote: > > Wrenches, > In the last few years I have changed my approach to off > grid system sizing, primarily due to higher battery costs > and lower module costs. Rather than shooting for a > traditional 80-90% of winter load profile target, I will > size a larger array and smaller battery bank, figuring > (especially here in the sunny Southwest) that batteries > will recharge more quickly, will spend more of their time > full (and thus last longer), and will be at least > partially charged during cloudy weather. This even allows > for smaller battery banks that are cycled more deeply (as > long as there's a backup gennie in the mix); the lower > cost of a smaller size may allow for a set of > higher-quality industrial cells. > > I first began to rethink my design approach after reading > Christopher Freitas' Solar Pro article on large battery > banks a few years ago. Being able to refill in a day was > part of his strategic approach to battery bank design. I > used and wrote about this approach in my tiny house > article in the current Home Power. However, I'm just > beginning to get owner feedback about greater water > consumption and the need for more frequent watering. This > is especially the case when I add array to an existing > system, and the old watering schedule is suddenly not enough. > > When I design new systems I now encourage larger arrays > and smaller battery banks, as the batteries spend more of > their time happily full and recover more quickly after a > discharge period. But I am thinking that I will have to > begin changing charging setpoints in response. Flooded > batteries have a range of recommended bulk setpoints, from > 28.8 to 29.6 volts on a 24V system. When arrays were > smaller we set to the higher end of the range to take > advantage of topping off when available, and a two hour or > longer absorption was considered beneficial, as long as > the CC could transition to float at 2% of capacity or so. > With a larger array a better approach may be to lower the > bulk/absorption setting, as well as reduce absorption time > and raise the float transition current ("done amps"). > > I'm writing to encourage a discussion among off grid > Wrenches. Are you changing the relative relationship > between array and battery capacities? If so, how are you > adjusting charge controller setpoint programming? For > example, how would you program a Midnite Classic, Outback > FM or Schneider XW if you could achieve a C/10 or C/15 > charge rate? > > Thanks, Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell*-- > > Jay Peltz > Peltz Power > jay.peltz at gmail.com > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri May 22 15:56:14 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 13:56:14 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery setpoints with larger arrays In-Reply-To: <609229E21C2B4D109453FE0CE1F8D323@D8XG8YH1> References: <555E1C3F.40503@sindelarsolar.com> <609229E21C2B4D109453FE0CE1F8D323@D8XG8YH1> Message-ID: <555F89DE.6000302@solarray.com> Hi Bill; If the battery is in an insulated box indoors, it definitely can over heat. Also if ambient temps get into the 90s, the additional heat from charging can push the battery into the danger zone. In hot desert or tropical climates, it may actually be difficult to keep the battery below 105F. I'm very glad to hear Midnite added the high temp disconnect to their system. They may have saved a life. Bob, is battery temp logged, so we could see how often a system quits charging for high temp, and just what the battery temps are running? Many of our systems may need additional cooling. A recent HUP install in Haiti comes to mind..... R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 5/22/2015 8:28 AM, frenergy wrote: > Hey Jay, > From what I've heard form battery manus, the C rates likely > even in a well PV-ed system still will not produce C-rates high enough > to approach a high or "longevity reducing" internal battery temp, > assuming a typical bulk, absorb, float cycle. Of course, battery > environmental location (typical temps) would set a baseline from which > batt temp would rise from. Here in the Sierra, ambients are not very > high 95% of the time. > Just curious, how does the wiz bang account for all loads...2 > shunts? > Thanks, > Bill > Feather River Solar Electric > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* jay peltz > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Thursday, May 21, 2015 8:07 PM > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery setpoints with larger arrays > > Hi Allan, > > I like the classic/wiz bang jr. This allows really good end amp > control as all loads are accounted for. > > Higher C rates equal higher internal temps which definitely will > shorten the life. > > On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 10:56 AM, Allan Sindelar > > wrote: > > Wrenches, > In the last few years I have changed my approach to off grid > system sizing, primarily due to higher battery costs and lower > module costs. Rather than shooting for a traditional 80-90% of > winter load profile target, I will size a larger array and > smaller battery bank, figuring (especially here in the sunny > Southwest) that batteries will recharge more quickly, will > spend more of their time full (and thus last longer), and will > be at least partially charged during cloudy weather. This even > allows for smaller battery banks that are cycled more deeply > (as long as there's a backup gennie in the mix); the lower > cost of a smaller size may allow for a set of higher-quality > industrial cells. > > I first began to rethink my design approach after reading > Christopher Freitas' Solar Pro article on large battery banks > a few years ago. Being able to refill in a day was part of his > strategic approach to battery bank design. I used and wrote > about this approach in my tiny house article in the current > Home Power. However, I'm just beginning to get owner feedback > about greater water consumption and the need for more frequent > watering. This is especially the case when I add array to an > existing system, and the old watering schedule is suddenly not > enough. > > When I design new systems I now encourage larger arrays and > smaller battery banks, as the batteries spend more of their > time happily full and recover more quickly after a discharge > period. But I am thinking that I will have to begin changing > charging setpoints in response. Flooded batteries have a range > of recommended bulk setpoints, from 28.8 to 29.6 volts on a > 24V system. When arrays were smaller we set to the higher end > of the range to take advantage of topping off when available, > and a two hour or longer absorption was considered beneficial, > as long as the CC could transition to float at 2% of capacity > or so. With a larger array a better approach may be to lower > the bulk/absorption setting, as well as reduce absorption time > and raise the float transition current ("done amps"). > > I'm writing to encourage a discussion among off grid Wrenches. > Are you changing the relative relationship between array and > battery capacities? If so, how are you adjusting charge > controller setpoint programming? For example, how would you > program a Midnite Classic, Outback FM or Schneider XW if you > could achieve a C/10 or C/15 charge rate? > > Thanks, Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > > -- > Jay Peltz > Peltz Power > jay.peltz at gmail.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Gary at IcarusSolarServices.com Fri May 22 15:56:49 2015 From: Gary at IcarusSolarServices.com (Gary Willett) Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 14:56:49 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lightning Strike Fries Array In-Reply-To: <178806000@retriever.VALLEY.NET> References: <178806000@retriever.VALLEY.NET> Message-ID: <555F8A01.2030703@IcarusSolarServices.com> Wayne, et al: I also recommend that you perform a Megger test on the DC Source Circuit conductors before recommissioning the system. There could be wiring faults caused by the lightning strike that may go undetected. It's also possible that an undetected ground fault might have occurred during initial construction. The presence of a longitudinal imbalance on the PV conductors could make the equipment more susceptible to lightning induced voltage. I was contracted to troubleshoot and determine the extent of damage for a lightning strike on a 21 module (3-strings of 7) ground mount system located about 180' from the garage where the string inverter was located. The lightning irreparably fried the 7 modules in the middle landscape oriented string (furthest from the N-S support posts) and the string inverter. The other two strings were unaffected. When I did a Megger test on the PV conductors for all 3 strings, I found that the home run wiring for the lightning damaged middle string had a 4.5 k-Ohm ground fault on the PV+ conductor to ground. The ground fault resistance was too high to blow the inverter's 1A GFDI fuse. If left uncorrected, the ground fault would have seriously affected the performance of this string. I measured the performance of this string with my Solmetric PVA1000 analyzer after the damaged modules were replaced. The ground fault caused a 44% reduction in PV production as compared to the other two strings. It was not possible to replace just the faulty conductor without damaging the other wires in the buried conduit. The solution was to install the replacement inverter at the ground mounted array, then reuse the remaining good wiring for the inverter's PV output circuit. Regards, Gary Willett PE Icarus Solar Services / Engineering Irving TX USA On 5/21/15 7:35 PM, Richard L Ratico wrote: > Wayne, > > Never had an entire array fried. My experience consists of a total of less than > 10 modules out of a total of maybe 50 at two different sites. One site had the > much more common (these days) modules with leads and diodes potted in an > epoxy-like material. We use a Dremel tool with a burr bit to access the diodes. > Pretty labor intensive, but modules of the right size were no longer available. > > If the junction boxes have removeable covers, that's half the battle won. You > can test the individual diodes and cell strings. Diodes are inexpensive and not > too hard to replace. I think we got them through Mouser. > > Dick Ratico > Solarwind Electric > > > > > > --- You wrote: > Hi Wayne, > > Several years back I had all sixteen SolarWorld modules on a tracker get > zapped. The two other trackers adjacent to this one had no damaged > modules. The same strike blew out the phone box at the end of the road > (some distance away). > > The SolarWorld jboxes were all sealed with no way to get to the diodes. > The homeowners insurance covered the loss and I replaced the modules with > something similar (SW had since stopped manufacturing 175s). It would have > been nice to have had access to the diodes. > > From boB at midnitesolar.com Fri May 22 17:24:30 2015 From: boB at midnitesolar.com (boB at midnitesolar.com) Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 14:24:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery setpoints with larger arrays In-Reply-To: <555F89DE.6000302@solarray.com> References: <555E1C3F.40503@sindelarsolar.com> <609229E21C2B4D109453FE0CE1F8D323@D8XG8YH1> <555F89DE.6000302@solarray.com> Message-ID: <555F9E8E.60200@midnitesolar.com> On 5/22/2015 12:56 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > Hi Bill; > > If the battery is in an insulated box indoors, it definitely can over > heat. Also if ambient temps get into the 90s, the additional heat > from charging can push the battery into the danger zone. In hot > desert or tropical climates, it may actually be difficult to keep the > battery below 105F. > I'm very glad to hear Midnite added the high temp disconnect to their > system. They may have saved a life. > Bob, is battery temp logged, so we could see how often a system quits > charging for high temp, and just what the battery temps are running? No, but that is on the list as are other things to data log. Hopefully the temperature is adjusted higher than it would ever get to under normal circumstances. I could see some future systems wanting to be able to regulate Absorb on battery temperature mixed with other parameters some day. Could get REALLY complicated if you wanted to. We're learning more and more about what is good for batteries. boB > Many of our systems may need additional cooling. A recent HUP install > in Haiti comes to mind..... > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > On 5/22/2015 8:28 AM, frenergy wrote: >> Hey Jay, >> From what I've heard form battery manus, the C rates likely >> even in a well PV-ed system still will not produce C-rates high >> enough to approach a high or "longevity reducing" internal battery >> temp, assuming a typical bulk, absorb, float cycle. Of course, >> battery environmental location (typical temps) would set a baseline >> from which batt temp would rise from. Here in the Sierra, ambients >> are not very high 95% of the time. >> Just curious, how does the wiz bang account for all loads...2 >> shunts? >> Thanks, >> Bill >> Feather River Solar Electric >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* jay peltz >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Thursday, May 21, 2015 8:07 PM >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery setpoints with larger arrays >> >> Hi Allan, >> >> I like the classic/wiz bang jr. This allows really good end amp >> control as all loads are accounted for. >> >> Higher C rates equal higher internal temps which definitely will >> shorten the life. >> >> On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 10:56 AM, Allan Sindelar >> > wrote: >> >> Wrenches, >> In the last few years I have changed my approach to off grid >> system sizing, primarily due to higher battery costs and >> lower module costs. Rather than shooting for a traditional >> 80-90% of winter load profile target, I will size a larger >> array and smaller battery bank, figuring (especially here in >> the sunny Southwest) that batteries will recharge more >> quickly, will spend more of their time full (and thus last >> longer), and will be at least partially charged during cloudy >> weather. This even allows for smaller battery banks that are >> cycled more deeply (as long as there's a backup gennie in the >> mix); the lower cost of a smaller size may allow for a set of >> higher-quality industrial cells. >> >> I first began to rethink my design approach after reading >> Christopher Freitas' Solar Pro article on large battery banks >> a few years ago. Being able to refill in a day was part of >> his strategic approach to battery bank design. I used and >> wrote about this approach in my tiny house article in the >> current Home Power. However, I'm just beginning to get owner >> feedback about greater water consumption and the need for >> more frequent watering. This is especially the case when I >> add array to an existing system, and the old watering >> schedule is suddenly not enough. >> >> When I design new systems I now encourage larger arrays and >> smaller battery banks, as the batteries spend more of their >> time happily full and recover more quickly after a discharge >> period. But I am thinking that I will have to begin changing >> charging setpoints in response. Flooded batteries have a >> range of recommended bulk setpoints, from 28.8 to 29.6 volts >> on a 24V system. When arrays were smaller we set to the >> higher end of the range to take advantage of topping off when >> available, and a two hour or longer absorption was considered >> beneficial, as long as the CC could transition to float at 2% >> of capacity or so. With a larger array a better approach may >> be to lower the bulk/absorption setting, as well as reduce >> absorption time and raise the float transition current ("done >> amps"). >> >> I'm writing to encourage a discussion among off grid >> Wrenches. Are you changing the relative relationship between >> array and battery capacities? If so, how are you adjusting >> charge controller setpoint programming? For example, how >> would you program a Midnite Classic, Outback FM or Schneider >> XW if you could achieve a C/10 or C/15 charge rate? >> >> Thanks, Allan >> >> *Allan Sindelar* >> allan at sindelarsolar.com >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional >> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >> *505 780-2738 cell* >> >> Jay Peltz >> Peltz Power >> jay.peltz at gmail.com >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kevin at ecohousesolar.com Fri May 22 17:38:24 2015 From: kevin at ecohousesolar.com (Kevin Eigel) Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 17:38:24 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discrepency between inverter kWH reading and solar production meter Message-ID: I recently installed a Solaredge 7600 inverter and two feet away from it installed a GE 210 solar kWh utility grade meter. Over the course of three months the kWh production measured by the inverter is more than 200 kWh greater then the production showing on the GE meter. I changed out the GE meter for the last week and the discrepancy has continued, so it looks like it is not the meter. I am looking for any help in understanding whey there is this large discrepancy on the kWh reading between the inverter and the production meter, when they are so close together. The Solaredge technical help desk has been of no use. -- Kevin Eigel President Ecohouse Solar 1857 Northwest Blvd. Ste 201, Columbus, OH 43212 www,ecohousesolar.com 614-805-5776 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri May 22 18:33:18 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 16:33:18 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery setpoints with larger arrays In-Reply-To: <555F9E8E.60200@midnitesolar.com> References: <555E1C3F.40503@sindelarsolar.com> <609229E21C2B4D109453FE0CE1F8D323@D8XG8YH1> <555F89DE.6000302@solarray.com> <555F9E8E.60200@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: <555FAEAE.1090309@solarray.com> I thought I'd post some info on Battery Temp from a few manus: HUP Solar One: do not exceed 105 F Full River AGMs: max recommended operating temp 104F and from Trojan: for every 10C increase in temperature the reaction rate doubles. Thus, a month of operation at 35C is equivalent to 2 months at 25C. Heat is the enemy of ALL lead acid batteries. Even small increases in temperature will have a major influence on battery life. Their T105 RE battery has a max operating temperature of 113 F I think more batteries are hitting high temperatures than we may realize. This info from Trojan that a battery at 95F (35C) will only last half its rated life (at 25C) is very concerning. Once again, thanks Bob and Midnite for giving us a tool to combat over temperature of batteries. We always knew cold was a problem, now I'm realizing heat could be just as important. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 5/22/2015 3:24 PM, boB at midnitesolar.com wrote: > I'm very glad to hear Midnite added the high temp disconnect to their > system. They may have saved a life. >> Bob, is battery temp logged, so we could see how often a system quits >> charging for high temp, and just what the battery temps are running? > > > No, but that is on the list as are other things to data log. > > Hopefully the temperature is adjusted higher than it would ever get to > under normal circumstances. > > I could see some future systems wanting to be able to regulate Absorb > on battery temperature mixed with other > parameters some day. Could get REALLY complicated if you wanted to. > We're learning more and more > about what is good for batteries. > > boB > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Fri May 22 19:00:43 2015 From: Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com (Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com) Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 19:00:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discrepency between inverter kWH reading and solar production meter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi: The difference is in the accuracy of revenue grade versus inverter KWh meters. Revenue grade is typically much more accurate. Beyond that, even if the accuracy of both was really good at lets say +/- 0.5%, you could still get a 1% overall difference in readings as one could be +0.5% and other -0.5%, even though they are both working to spec. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Kevin Eigel To: RE-wrenches , Date: 05/22/2015 02:38 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discrepency between inverter kWH reading and solar production meter Sent by: "RE-wrenches" I recently installed a Solaredge 7600 inverter and two feet away from it installed a GE 210 solar kWh utility grade meter. Over the course of three months the kWh production measured by the inverter is more than 200 kWh greater then the production showing on the GE meter. I changed out the GE meter for the last week and the discrepancy has continued, so it looks like it is not the meter. I am looking for any help in understanding whey there is this large discrepancy on the kWh reading between the inverter and the production meter, when they are so close together. The Solaredge technical help desk has been of no use. -- Kevin Eigel President Ecohouse Solar 1857 Northwest Blvd. Ste 201, Columbus, OH 43212 www,ecohousesolar.com 614-805-5776 ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From frenergy at psln.com Fri May 22 20:26:03 2015 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 17:26:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discrepency between inverter kWH reading andsolar production meter References: Message-ID: <0BE69B97A858410EB59AC7A79ADFA33A@D8XG8YH1> Hopefully there tech department can shed some light on this for you, however, it would certainly be to SolarEdge's benefit to appear to be producing more power than it really is, well, unless, Hmmmm .......... Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com To: RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, May 22, 2015 4:00 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Discrepency between inverter kWH reading andsolar production meter Hi: The difference is in the accuracy of revenue grade versus inverter KWh meters. Revenue grade is typically much more accurate. Beyond that, even if the accuracy of both was really good at lets say +/- 0.5%, you could still get a 1% overall difference in readings as one could be +0.5% and other -0.5%, even though they are both working to spec. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Kevin Eigel To: RE-wrenches , Date: 05/22/2015 02:38 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discrepency between inverter kWH reading and solar production meter Sent by: "RE-wrenches" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I recently installed a Solaredge 7600 inverter and two feet away from it installed a GE 210 solar kWh utility grade meter. Over the course of three months the kWh production measured by the inverter is more than 200 kWh greater then the production showing on the GE meter. I changed out the GE meter for the last week and the discrepancy has continued, so it looks like it is not the meter. I am looking for any help in understanding whey there is this large discrepancy on the kWh reading between the inverter and the production meter, when they are so close together. The Solaredge technical help desk has been of no use. -- Kevin Eigel President Ecohouse Solar 1857 Northwest Blvd. Ste 201, Columbus, OH 43212 www,ecohousesolar.com 614-805-5776 ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri May 22 20:07:05 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay peltz) Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 17:07:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery setpoints with larger arrays In-Reply-To: <555FAEAE.1090309@solarray.com> References: <555E1C3F.40503@sindelarsolar.com> <609229E21C2B4D109453FE0CE1F8D323@D8XG8YH1> <555F89DE.6000302@solarray.com> <555F9E8E.60200@midnitesolar.com> <555FAEAE.1090309@solarray.com> Message-ID: Hi Ray, Cold isn't a problem. It reduces capacity and yes they could freeze, but it doesn't shorten life ( I mean besides the freezing part) in fact cooler batteries last longer. But hot is a problem. Those max temps are not the same thing as reduced life from running at a hotter temperature. As to internal temps, its really hard to do this. IR cameras are pretty good. Temp sensors which stick to the outside of the case's are not as good as ones that bolt to the post. The post is a good thermal conductor vs the plastic case. The glue/stick on ones come loose as we all know and that means less accurate metering. My premise for bring up the temp concern is that with a larger array and smaller battery which equals higher C rates you will have higher internal temps, no way around it. How high, how much/will it shorten the life unclear but probably, how much, ? Let me rephrase it, do you think hotter temperatures are increasing the lifespan of the battery? While on this subject, I've done some quick calcs and with hot areas, its cheaper to add PV for installing daytime AC vs battery life lost due to the heat. We can thank the cheap world of PV for that. And while I've thought about what Allan started this conversion with in regards to sizing batteries. I continue to size my batteries around best life for the battery ( best daily average % DOD). There are many ways to consider the size/cost etc of batteries: For a larger battery (less DOD) you could view it as buying lead futures, longer time between problems, etc. For smaller bank ( higher DOD) my only reason for doing it at this point is a bridge battery to when Li-Ion/other technologies will overtake LA for cost/ease/MX/capabilities. I'd be curious to hear what others think about that last part, jay On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 3:33 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > I thought I'd post some info on Battery Temp from a few manus: > HUP Solar One: do not exceed 105 F > Full River AGMs: max recommended operating temp 104F > and from Trojan: for every 10C increase in temperature the reaction rate > doubles. Thus, a month of operation at 35C is equivalent to 2 months at > 25C. Heat is the enemy of ALL lead acid batteries. Even small increases > in temperature will have a major influence on battery life. > Their T105 RE battery has a max operating temperature of 113 F > > I think more batteries are hitting high temperatures than we may realize. > This info from Trojan that a battery at 95F (35C) will only last half its > rated life (at 25C) is very concerning. > Once again, thanks Bob and Midnite for giving us a tool to combat over > temperature of batteries. We always knew cold was a problem, now I'm > realizing heat could be just as important. > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 > > On 5/22/2015 3:24 PM, boB at midnitesolar.com wrote: > > I'm very glad to hear Midnite added the high temp disconnect to their > system. They may have saved a life. > > Bob, is battery temp logged, so we could see how often a system quits > charging for high temp, and just what the battery temps are running? > > > > No, but that is on the list as are other things to data log. > > Hopefully the temperature is adjusted higher than it would ever get to > under normal circumstances. > > I could see some future systems wanting to be able to regulate Absorb on > battery temperature mixed with other > parameters some day. Could get REALLY complicated if you wanted to. > We're learning more and more > about what is good for batteries. > > boB > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Jay Peltz Peltz Power jay.peltz at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Fri May 22 20:08:33 2015 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 17:08:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery setpoints with larger arrays References: <555E1C3F.40503@sindelarsolar.com> <609229E21C2B4D109453FE0CE1F8D323@D8XG8YH1> <555F89DE.6000302@solarray.com><555F9E8E.60200@midnitesolar.com> <555FAEAE.1090309@solarray.com> Message-ID: <7D714F34218641C2A98798DF31E49548@D8XG8YH1> This is good stuff, enlightening...but begs another small? detail that has obvious big ramifications. Where o where does the BTS get placed to best read the actual "temperature of the battery"? It's too big to fit on many terminals especially once cabled, it's certainly not very accurate when stuck to the outer case of a dual cased Surrette and probably only somewhat more accurate when stuck to an L-16 top. Aren't we looking for electrolyte temps? Many times the BTS doesn't survive its original location after a few years of battery acid. Rather than "insulated" from the surface its been assigned to with 2-sided tape, it seems like it should be in direct contact with that surface with a dab of thermal grease between. Or, couldn't a wrench be trusted to drill a 1/4" hole in the top of a representative cell and insert an acid proof sensor into the electrolyte with a formed snap-in plug (rubber, silicone, nylon??) behind it on the lead, to seal it where it enters the battery case? Just saying, if we really need (and I think we do) accurate battery temp for temp regulation and battery health, what we're using now is substandard. Bill Feather River Solar Electric ----- Original Message ----- From: Ray Walters To: RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, May 22, 2015 3:33 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery setpoints with larger arrays I thought I'd post some info on Battery Temp from a few manus: HUP Solar One: do not exceed 105 F Full River AGMs: max recommended operating temp 104F and from Trojan: for every 10C increase in temperature the reaction rate doubles. Thus, a month of operation at 35C is equivalent to 2 months at 25C. Heat is the enemy of ALL lead acid batteries. Even small increases in temperature will have a major influence on battery life. Their T105 RE battery has a max operating temperature of 113 F I think more batteries are hitting high temperatures than we may realize. This info from Trojan that a battery at 95F (35C) will only last half its rated life (at 25C) is very concerning. Once again, thanks Bob and Midnite for giving us a tool to combat over temperature of batteries. We always knew cold was a problem, now I'm realizing heat could be just as important. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760On 5/22/2015 3:24 PM, boB at midnitesolar.com wrote: I'm very glad to hear Midnite added the high temp disconnect to their system. They may have saved a life. Bob, is battery temp logged, so we could see how often a system quits charging for high temp, and just what the battery temps are running? No, but that is on the list as are other things to data log. Hopefully the temperature is adjusted higher than it would ever get to under normal circumstances. I could see some future systems wanting to be able to regulate Absorb on battery temperature mixed with other parameters some day. Could get REALLY complicated if you wanted to. We're learning more and more about what is good for batteries. boB ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri May 22 21:43:11 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay peltz) Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 18:43:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery setpoints with larger arrays In-Reply-To: <7D714F34218641C2A98798DF31E49548@D8XG8YH1> References: <555E1C3F.40503@sindelarsolar.com> <609229E21C2B4D109453FE0CE1F8D323@D8XG8YH1> <555F89DE.6000302@solarray.com> <555F9E8E.60200@midnitesolar.com> <555FAEAE.1090309@solarray.com> <7D714F34218641C2A98798DF31E49548@D8XG8YH1> Message-ID: agreed. Again, maybe Steve has an view of the builder, but having it on the post is pretty close. Maybe there is a white paper on temp sensor locations pros/cons? jay On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 5:08 PM, frenergy wrote: > This is good stuff, enlightening...but begs another small? detail that > has obvious big ramifications. Where o where does the BTS get placed to > best read the actual "temperature of the battery"? It's too big to fit on > many terminals especially once cabled, it's certainly not very accurate > when stuck to the outer case of a dual cased Surrette and probably only > somewhat more accurate when stuck to an L-16 top. Aren't we looking for > electrolyte temps? > > Many times the BTS doesn't survive its original location after a > few years of battery acid. Rather than "insulated" from the surface its > been assigned to with 2-sided tape, it seems like it should be in direct > contact with that surface with a dab of thermal grease between. Or, > couldn't a wrench be trusted to drill a 1/4" hole in the top of a > representative cell and insert an acid proof sensor into the electrolyte > with a formed snap-in plug (rubber, silicone, nylon??) behind it on the > lead, to seal it where it enters the battery case? > > Just saying, if we really need (and I think we do) accurate > battery temp for temp regulation and battery health, what we're using now > is substandard. > > Bill > Feather River Solar Electric > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Ray Walters > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Friday, May 22, 2015 3:33 PM > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery setpoints with larger arrays > > I thought I'd post some info on Battery Temp from a few manus: > HUP Solar One: do not exceed 105 F > Full River AGMs: max recommended operating temp 104F > and from Trojan: for every 10C increase in temperature the reaction rate > doubles. Thus, a month of operation at 35C is equivalent to 2 months at > 25C. Heat is the enemy of ALL lead acid batteries. Even small increases > in temperature will have a major influence on battery life. > Their T105 RE battery has a max operating temperature of 113 F > > I think more batteries are hitting high temperatures than we may realize. > This info from Trojan that a battery at 95F (35C) will only last half its > rated life (at 25C) is very concerning. > Once again, thanks Bob and Midnite for giving us a tool to combat over > temperature of batteries. We always knew cold was a problem, now I'm > realizing heat could be just as important. > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar De > > -- Jay Peltz Peltz Power jay.peltz at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From boB at midnitesolar.com Sat May 23 02:44:43 2015 From: boB at midnitesolar.com (boB at midnitesolar.com) Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 23:44:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery setpoints with larger arrays In-Reply-To: References: <555E1C3F.40503@sindelarsolar.com> <609229E21C2B4D109453FE0CE1F8D323@D8XG8YH1> <555F89DE.6000302@solarray.com> <555F9E8E.60200@midnitesolar.com> <555FAEAE.1090309@solarray.com> <7D714F34218641C2A98798DF31E49548@D8XG8YH1> Message-ID: <556021DB.9010803@midnitesolar.com> On 5/22/2015 6:43 PM, jay peltz wrote: > agreed. > Again, maybe Steve has an view of the builder, but having it on the > post is pretty close. If it's the typical flat type of BTS, wedged right between two batteries will give a good average temperature of the two of them. boB > > > Maybe there is a white paper on temp sensor locations pros/cons? > > jay > > > > > On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 5:08 PM, frenergy > wrote: > > This is good stuff, enlightening...but begs another small? detail > that has obvious big ramifications. Where o where does the BTS get > placed to best read the actual "temperature of the battery"? It's > too big to fit on many terminals especially once cabled, it's > certainly not very accurate when stuck to the outer case of a dual > cased Surrette and probably only somewhat more accurate when stuck > to an L-16 top. Aren't we looking for electrolyte temps? > Many times the BTS doesn't survive its original location > after a few years of battery acid. Rather than "insulated" from > the surface its been assigned to with 2-sided tape, it seems like > it should be in direct contact with that surface with a dab of > thermal grease between. Or, couldn't a wrench be trusted to drill > a 1/4" hole in the top of a representative cell and insert an acid > proof sensor into the electrolyte with a formed snap-in plug > (rubber, silicone, nylon??) behind it on the lead, to seal it > where it enters the battery case? > Just saying, if we really need (and I think we do) > accurate battery temp for temp regulation and battery health, what > we're using now is substandard. > Bill > Feather River Solar Electric > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Ray Walters > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Friday, May 22, 2015 3:33 PM > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery setpoints with larger > arrays > > I thought I'd post some info on Battery Temp from a few manus: > HUP Solar One: do not exceed 105 F > Full River AGMs: max recommended operating temp 104F > and from Trojan: for every 10C increase in temperature the > reaction rate doubles. Thus, a month of operation at 35C is > equivalent to 2 months at 25C. Heat is the enemy of ALL lead > acid batteries. Even small increases in temperature will have > a major influence on battery life. > Their T105 RE battery has a max operating temperature of 113 F > > I think more batteries are hitting high temperatures than we > may realize. This info from Trojan that a battery at 95F > (35C) will only last half its rated life (at 25C) is very > concerning. > Once again, thanks Bob and Midnite for giving us a tool to > combat over temperature of batteries. We always knew cold was > a problem, now I'm realizing heat could be just as important. > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar De > > -- > Jay Peltz > Peltz Power > jay.peltz at gmail.com > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swingjunkie at gmail.com Sat May 23 13:51:13 2015 From: swingjunkie at gmail.com (Carl Adams) Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 13:51:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discrepency between inverter kWH reading andsolar production meter In-Reply-To: <0BE69B97A858410EB59AC7A79ADFA33A@D8XG8YH1> References: <0BE69B97A858410EB59AC7A79ADFA33A@D8XG8YH1> Message-ID: Kevin, My experience with inverter based kilowatt hour readings is that they are always optimistic. My experience with SolarEdge shows the SolarEdge kilowatt hour reading runs about 2 percent higher then the utility grade meter. I have found similar discrepancies with SMA , Fronius and other inverter manufacturers. Carl Adams President, SunRock Solar mobile 513.290.9072 On May 22, 2015 8:39 PM, "frenergy" wrote: > Hopefully there tech department can shed some light on this for you, > however, it would certainly be to SolarEdge's benefit to appear to be > producing more power than it really is, well, unless, Hmmmm .......... > > Bill > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Friday, May 22, 2015 4:00 PM > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Discrepency between inverter kWH reading > andsolar production meter > > Hi: > > The difference is in the accuracy of revenue grade versus inverter KWh > meters. Revenue grade is typically much more accurate. > > Beyond that, even if the accuracy of both was really good at lets say +/- > 0.5%, you could still get a 1% overall difference in readings as one could > be +0.5% and other -0.5%, even though they are both working to spec. > > JARMO > > _____________________________________________________________________________________ > > *Jarmo Venalainen* | * Schneider Electric ** | Xantrex Brand* | > *CANADA* | *Sales Application Engineer* > *Phone:* +604-422-2528 | *Tech Support:* 800-670-0707 | *Mobile:* > +604-505-0291 > *Email:* *jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com* > | *Site:** www.Xantrex.com* > | *Address:* 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC > V5G4M1 > > > > > > *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail > > > > From: Kevin Eigel To: RE-wrenches < > RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>, Date: 05/22/2015 02:38 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] > Discrepency between inverter kWH reading and solar production meter Sent > by: "RE-wrenches" > ------------------------------ > > > > I recently installed a Solaredge 7600 inverter and two feet away from it > installed a GE 210 solar kWh utility grade meter. Over the course of three > months the kWh production measured by the inverter is more than 200 kWh > greater then the production showing on the GE meter. I changed out the GE > meter for the last week and the discrepancy has continued, so it looks like > it is not the meter. > I am looking for any help in understanding whey there is this large > discrepancy on the kWh reading between the inverter and the production > meter, when they are so close together. The Solaredge technical help desk > has been of no use. > > -- > Kevin Eigel > President > Ecohouse Solar > 1857 Northwest Blvd. Ste 201, Columbus, OH 43212 > www,*ecohousesolar.com* > 614-805-5776 > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. > ______________________________________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 38319 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Sat May 23 14:37:55 2015 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 12:37:55 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery setpoints with larger arrays In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <26C3EC91-D268-4F00-A9DF-36540376C189@gmail.com> Jay's point about adding PV to offset daytime AC for the battery bank brings up the issue of active cooling. How many folks out there are installing some form of cooling for LA battery banks, and how are you implementing it? The issue of excess heat being an enemy of battery life has had me concerned for several years now, and I have started installing multiple fans in battery boxes to increase the cooling from air circulation, but I'm not sure I have the effectiveness dialed yet. Interested to hear what others are doing here. As always, I appreciate the great resource that is this list. -Luke Message: 2 Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 17:07:05 -0700 From: jay peltz To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery setpoints with larger arrays Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Hi Ray, Cold isn't a problem. It reduces capacity and yes they could freeze, but it doesn't shorten life ( I mean besides the freezing part) in fact cooler batteries last longer. But hot is a problem. Those max temps are not the same thing as reduced life from running at a hotter temperature. As to internal temps, its really hard to do this. IR cameras are pretty good. Temp sensors which stick to the outside of the case's are not as good as ones that bolt to the post. The post is a good thermal conductor vs the plastic case. The glue/stick on ones come loose as we all know and that means less accurate metering. My premise for bring up the temp concern is that with a larger array and smaller battery which equals higher C rates you will have higher internal temps, no way around it. How high, how much/will it shorten the life unclear but probably, how much, ? Let me rephrase it, do you think hotter temperatures are increasing the lifespan of the battery? While on this subject, I've done some quick calcs and with hot areas, its cheaper to add PV for installing daytime AC vs battery life lost due to the heat. We can thank the cheap world of PV for that. And while I've thought about what Allan started this conversion with in regards to sizing batteries. I continue to size my batteries around best life for the battery ( best daily average % DOD). There are many ways to consider the size/cost etc of batteries: For a larger battery (less DOD) you could view it as buying lead futures, longer time between problems, etc. For smaller bank ( higher DOD) my only reason for doing it at this point is a bridge battery to when Li-Ion/other technologies will overtake LA for cost/ease/MX/capabilities. I'd be curious to hear what others think about that last part, jay Luke Christy NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 CoSEIA Certified PV Installer Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO. 81144 SGSRenewables at Gmail.com 719.588.3044 www.sgsrenewables.com From ray at solarray.com Sat May 23 16:01:37 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 14:01:37 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery setpoints with larger arrays In-Reply-To: References: <555E1C3F.40503@sindelarsolar.com> <609229E21C2B4D109453FE0CE1F8D323@D8XG8YH1> <555F89DE.6000302@solarray.com> <555F9E8E.60200@midnitesolar.com> <555FAEAE.1090309@solarray.com> Message-ID: <5560DCA1.5060206@solarray.com> Hi Folks; In our area, below 0F cold is definitely an issue, but I agree it does extend battery life if it doesn't freeze. From a design stand point you can end up with a really large battery: double the size to account for only discharging it 50% for freeze protection, then double it again because it will only have half its capacity when cold. Freezing is a very real problem in subzero weather, and many charge controller's default LVD (low voltage disconnect) settings are too low to adequately protect the battery. By the time we see the system, the acid has thawed back out, leaked everywhere, and caused all sorts of additional havoc. To be fair, this usually happens in systems with DC loads and no LVD. I once saw an indoor battery froze, it was the cell right next to the battery vent, which was just a pipe straight through the wall. Here's some #s for thought from the HUP manual: Battery acid at 55% discharge can freeze at -15F, which corresponds to a steady state voltage of about 12.0 v, on a 12 v system. A standard LVD set to shut off at 11v is too low in this case. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 5/22/2015 6:07 PM, jay peltz wrote: > Hi Ray, > > Cold isn't a problem. It reduces capacity and yes they could freeze, > but it doesn't shorten life ( I mean besides the freezing part) in > fact cooler batteries last longer. > But hot is a problem. Those max temps are not the same thing as > reduced life from running at a hotter temperature. > > From boB at midnitesolar.com Sat May 23 20:59:11 2015 From: boB at midnitesolar.com (boB at midnitesolar.com) Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 17:59:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery setpoints with larger arrays In-Reply-To: <26C3EC91-D268-4F00-A9DF-36540376C189@gmail.com> References: <26C3EC91-D268-4F00-A9DF-36540376C189@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5561225F.6040805@midnitesolar.com> On 5/23/2015 11:37 AM, Luke Christy wrote: > Jay's point about adding PV to offset daytime AC for the battery bank brings up the issue of active cooling. > > How many folks out there are installing some form of cooling for LA battery banks, and how are you implementing it? As long as some FLA battery systems use "vent fans", just arrange them so that they move air past the batteries to cool them at the same time ? That's when they're going to get hottest anyway. FLA batteries will freeze easier if they are discharged. I suppose that you could use the battery temp sensor to make sure you charge them up good when the temp gets cold enough. boB > > The issue of excess heat being an enemy of battery life has had me concerned for several years now, and I have started installing multiple fans in battery boxes to increase the cooling from air circulation, but I'm not sure I have the effectiveness dialed yet. > > Interested to hear what others are doing here. > > As always, I appreciate the great resource that is this list. > > -Luke > > > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 17:07:05 -0700 > From: jay peltz > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery setpoints with larger arrays > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Hi Ray, > > Cold isn't a problem. It reduces capacity and yes they could freeze, but > it doesn't shorten life ( I mean besides the freezing part) in fact cooler > batteries last longer. > But hot is a problem. Those max temps are not the same thing as reduced > life from running at a hotter temperature. > > > As to internal temps, its really hard to do this. IR cameras are pretty > good. Temp sensors which stick to the outside of the case's are not as > good as ones that bolt to the post. The post is a good thermal conductor > vs the plastic case. The glue/stick on ones come loose as we all know and > that means less accurate metering. > > My premise for bring up the temp concern is that with a larger array and > smaller battery which equals higher C rates you will have higher internal > temps, no way around it. How high, how much/will it shorten the life > unclear but probably, how much, ? > > Let me rephrase it, do you think hotter temperatures are increasing the > lifespan of the battery? > > While on this subject, I've done some quick calcs and with hot areas, its > cheaper to add PV for installing daytime AC vs battery life lost due to the > heat. We can thank the cheap world of PV for that. > > And while I've thought about what Allan started this conversion with in > regards to sizing batteries. > I continue to size my batteries around best life for the battery ( best > daily average % DOD). > There are many ways to consider the size/cost etc of batteries: For a > larger battery (less DOD) you could view it as buying lead futures, longer > time between problems, etc. For smaller bank ( higher DOD) my only reason > for doing it at this point is a bridge battery to when Li-Ion/other > technologies will overtake LA for cost/ease/MX/capabilities. > > I'd be curious to hear what others think about that last part, > > jay > > > > > Luke Christy > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professionalâ„¢: Certification #031409-25 > NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installerâ„¢: Certification #ST032611-03 > CoSEIA Certified PV Installer > > Solar Gain Services, LLC > PO Box 531 > Monte Vista, CO. 81144 > SGSRenewables at Gmail.com > 719.588.3044 > www.sgsrenewables.com > > From ray at solarray.com Sat May 23 23:05:24 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 21:05:24 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery setpoints with larger arrays In-Reply-To: <5561225F.6040805@midnitesolar.com> References: <26C3EC91-D268-4F00-A9DF-36540376C189@gmail.com> <5561225F.6040805@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: <55613FF4.1080409@solarray.com> Having the LVD be temperature compensated so that the load is always disconnected above the freeze point of the battery would be a Huge Improvement on the whole concept of LVD. In combination with State of Charge monitoring, like the Whiz bang Jr, would be the most effective, and just program the disconnect to stay above freezing for a typical lead acid battery. I got this from a Trojan White Paper: R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 > > FLA batteries will freeze easier if they are discharged. I suppose > that you could > use the battery temp sensor to make sure you charge them up good when > the temp gets cold enough. > > boB -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: fijehdgi.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 42122 bytes Desc: not available URL: From frenergy at psln.com Mon May 25 00:39:14 2015 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Sun, 24 May 2015 21:39:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Supply side References: <26C3EC91-D268-4F00-A9DF-36540376C189@gmail.com><5561225F.6040805@midnitesolar.com> <55613FF4.1080409@solarray.com> Message-ID: <811788075B334B25B9A0A9F8CF59CC57@D8XG8YH1> Wrenches, Customer currently has a hacked up 200 amp Sylvania meter/mains panel. He also is averaging a load of 74 KWhrs/day! which will require about 15 KW system size at this site. Obviously a system this size cannot backfeed the busses in the load center. Because the exiting panel is a mess anyway, I'm suggesting it gets changed out. What sort of new 200 amp service would facilitate a clean supply side connection. One thought is have separate Utility meter socket then a 12 X 12 J-box with a monster power distribution block in it and then a distribution panel (without the meter socket)...this being a way to insert a means to grid-tie between the meter and the 200 amp main breaker. A little spendy but nothing like going to higher amp service to be able to load side connect. A 400 amp panel is not an option as the existing 165' of 3" pvc underground conduit to the pole currently has 4/0 alum. The utility says it would have to be 4" for the new cable and the cost $10K+ for the upgrade. Other ideas?? Thanks in advance Bill Feather River Solar Electric -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Mon May 25 08:18:44 2015 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Mon, 25 May 2015 06:18:44 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Supply side In-Reply-To: <811788075B334B25B9A0A9F8CF59CC57@D8XG8YH1> References: <26C3EC91-D268-4F00-A9DF-36540376C189@gmail.com> <5561225F.6040805@midnitesolar.com> <55613FF4.1080409@solarray.com> <811788075B334B25B9A0A9F8CF59CC57@D8XG8YH1> Message-ID: Hi Bill, Square D has a nice 225A panel that may work Model # QO142L225PG. If you can work with a 70A backfed breaker, you could use a 200A MCB and do a load side connection. Cheers On Sun, May 24, 2015 at 10:39 PM, frenergy wrote: > Wrenches, > > Customer currently has a hacked up 200 amp Sylvania meter/mains > panel. He also is averaging a load of 74 KWhrs/day! which will require > about 15 KW system size at this site. Obviously a system this size cannot > backfeed the busses in the load center. Because the exiting panel is a > mess anyway, I'm suggesting it gets changed out. > > What sort of new 200 amp service would facilitate a clean supply > side connection. One thought is have separate Utility meter socket then a > 12 X 12 J-box with a monster power distribution block in it and then a > distribution panel (without the meter socket)...this being a way to insert > a means to grid-tie between the meter and the 200 amp main breaker. A > little spendy but nothing like going to higher amp service to be able to > load side connect. > > A 400 amp panel is not an option as the existing 165' of 3" pvc > underground conduit to the pole currently has 4/0 alum. The utility says > it would have to be 4" for the new cable and the cost $10K+ for the upgrade. > > Other ideas?? > > Thanks in advance > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From windsine at gmail.com Mon May 25 08:21:32 2015 From: windsine at gmail.com (Roy Rakobitsch) Date: Mon, 25 May 2015 07:21:32 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Supply side In-Reply-To: <811788075B334B25B9A0A9F8CF59CC57@D8XG8YH1> References: <26C3EC91-D268-4F00-A9DF-36540376C189@gmail.com> <5561225F.6040805@midnitesolar.com> <55613FF4.1080409@solarray.com> <811788075B334B25B9A0A9F8CF59CC57@D8XG8YH1> Message-ID: Why not a simple line side tap? Roy Rakobitsch NABCEP Certified Small Wind Installer® NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® Certified Advanced Tower Climbing, Safety & Rescue Wind/PV Design Engineer Windsine LLC 631-514-4166 www.windsine.org On May 25, 2015 3:00 AM, "frenergy" wrote: > Wrenches, > > Customer currently has a hacked up 200 amp Sylvania meter/mains > panel. He also is averaging a load of 74 KWhrs/day! which will require > about 15 KW system size at this site. Obviously a system this size cannot > backfeed the busses in the load center. Because the exiting panel is a > mess anyway, I'm suggesting it gets changed out. > > What sort of new 200 amp service would facilitate a clean supply > side connection. One thought is have separate Utility meter socket then a > 12 X 12 J-box with a monster power distribution block in it and then a > distribution panel (without the meter socket)...this being a way to insert > a means to grid-tie between the meter and the 200 amp main breaker. A > little spendy but nothing like going to higher amp service to be able to > load side connect. > > A 400 amp panel is not an option as the existing 165' of 3" pvc > underground conduit to the pole currently has 4/0 alum. The utility says > it would have to be 4" for the new cable and the cost $10K+ for the upgrade. > > Other ideas?? > > Thanks in advance > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon May 25 11:21:20 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay peltz) Date: Mon, 25 May 2015 08:21:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Supply side In-Reply-To: References: <26C3EC91-D268-4F00-A9DF-36540376C189@gmail.com> <5561225F.6040805@midnitesolar.com> <55613FF4.1080409@solarray.com> <811788075B334B25B9A0A9F8CF59CC57@D8XG8YH1> Message-ID: Hi bill Google solar ready load centers or pump ready load centers These both have 60 amp ( is what I've seen) separate breaker spot that is not part of the main buss. Which means you also have the 40 amp in the main for 100a total. Super clean Jay On Monday, May 25, 2015, Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi Bill, > > Square D has a nice 225A panel that may work Model # QO142L225PG. If you > can work with a 70A backfed breaker, you could use a 200A MCB and do a load > side connection. > > Cheers > > On Sun, May 24, 2015 at 10:39 PM, frenergy > wrote: > >> Wrenches, >> >> Customer currently has a hacked up 200 amp Sylvania meter/mains >> panel. He also is averaging a load of 74 KWhrs/day! which will require >> about 15 KW system size at this site. Obviously a system this size cannot >> backfeed the busses in the load center. Because the exiting panel is a >> mess anyway, I'm suggesting it gets changed out. >> >> What sort of new 200 amp service would facilitate a clean supply >> side connection. One thought is have separate Utility meter socket then a >> 12 X 12 J-box with a monster power distribution block in it and then a >> distribution panel (without the meter socket)...this being a way to insert >> a means to grid-tie between the meter and the 200 amp main breaker. A >> little spendy but nothing like going to higher amp service to be able to >> load side connect. >> >> A 400 amp panel is not an option as the existing 165' of 3" pvc >> underground conduit to the pole currently has 4/0 alum. The utility says >> it would have to be 4" for the new cable and the cost $10K+ for the upgrade. >> >> Other ideas?? >> >> Thanks in advance >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> >> _______________________________________________ >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > -- Jay Peltz Peltz Power jay.peltz at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Mon May 25 13:14:33 2015 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Mon, 25 May 2015 17:14:33 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery set points with larger arrays Message-ID: <414D424906AE60489EF1829E1EFA55712C9C6C9E@sbc-exch.sbcdomain.local> Typically you want the BTS installed and any and every case... The BTS should be installed below the level of the plates not on the top of the battery. To do this you need to have the BTS about 1/3 to ½ the way down the side (Single Wall) of the battery, and I would suggest running some duct tape around the battery on the sensor to keep it on the side of the battery. For a Double wall battery, Although the sensor will be close, it will get better readings in between the plastic walls. To do so you can pull the top off the battery and put it between the walls. There is usually some black silicone around the pos/neg terminals, all you need to do is replace that with regular old RTV silicone... Post mounts are okay, but Surrette prefers the side mounts with another method of securing the sensors... The post mounts only sense the plate temp, not the overall temp of the battery. Temperature is a killer, and my years at Outback, and Trace I had no idea of how damaging this was until I came to work for Surrette. For every 10 Degrees C above 25 you lose 50% of your life cycles... For example if you installed these in the Mojave desert where six month of the year they would reach 95F+ you would probably lose about 25-30% of your life cycles... One of the ways to combat this if you can is vault them...it's a lot of work, but the earth even in those environments will keep them cooler. Steve Higgins Technical Services Manager P: +1.902.597.4020 M: +1.206.790.5840 F: +1.902.597.8447 Surrette Battery Company Exclusive manufacturer of [cid:rollsafb380] From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2015 8:05 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery setpoints with larger arrays Having the LVD be temperature compensated so that the load is always disconnected above the freeze point of the battery would be a Huge Improvement on the whole concept of LVD. In combination with State of Charge monitoring, like the Whiz bang Jr, would be the most effective, and just program the disconnect to stay above freezing for a typical lead acid battery. I got this from a Trojan White Paper: [cid:image001.jpg at 01D096D3.8E8C7560] R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 FLA batteries will freeze easier if they are discharged. I suppose that you could use the battery temp sensor to make sure you charge them up good when the temp gets cold enough. boB This email and its attachments have been scanned by mailWatch E-Mail Firewall for viruses, spam, and malicious content. The information transmitted in this email is intended only for the entity or person to which it is addressed and may contain confidential/privileged material. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any review, retransmission, dissemination, or other use of this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 42122 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: rollsafb380 Type: image/jpeg Size: 11941 bytes Desc: rollsafb380 URL: From darren at self.org Mon May 25 14:05:34 2015 From: darren at self.org (Darren Anderson) Date: Mon, 25 May 2015 18:05:34 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery setpoints with larger arrays Message-ID: <7D7B83AB-560F-4D63-930B-DE730A3E15F0@self.org> I’d also be interested to know if anyone is doing active or passive cooling for battery banks and what solutions they have come up with. We have been exploring various options including solar direct drive cooling, DC aircon units, and high efficiency AC aircon units. As far as I know there are no solar direct drive solutions that are commercially available or affordable. There are options in DC-powered units - used frequently in the Telecom industry. But the easiest solution, especially for AC coupled systems, could be high efficiency AC units that could be made to operate with photocell control for daytime operation only. One could just cool an insulated battery box, or better yet, the entire control room since heat is also the enemy of electronics and it might extend the life of inverters and charge controllers as well. _________________________ Darren Anderson | Project Manager Solar Electric Light Fund | www.SELF.org >Message: 1 >Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 12:37:55 -0600 >From: Luke Christy >To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery setpoints with larger arrays >Message-ID: <26C3EC91-D268-4F00-A9DF-36540376C189 at gmail.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > >Jay's point about adding PV to offset daytime AC for the battery bank brings up the issue of active cooling. > >How many folks out there are installing some form of cooling for LA battery banks, and how are you implementing it? > >The issue of excess heat being an enemy of battery life has had me concerned for several years now, and I have started installing multiple fans in battery boxes to increase the cooling from air circulation, but I'm not sure I have the effectiveness dialed yet. > >Interested to hear what others are doing here. > >As always, I appreciate the great resource that is this list. > >-Luke From danbob88 at gmail.com Mon May 25 14:28:22 2015 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Mon, 25 May 2015 12:28:22 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery setpoints with larger arrays In-Reply-To: <7D7B83AB-560F-4D63-930B-DE730A3E15F0@self.org> References: <7D7B83AB-560F-4D63-930B-DE730A3E15F0@self.org> Message-ID: I have always wondered about the thermal math on a new-fangled heat-pump water heater in a utility room. They basically air-condition the room to heat water, and the hotter the room, the more efficiently they work. They do use up some watt-hours for the compressor, not a good choice in a small off-grid system, but with grid-tie / battery backup maybe so and extend battery life too? Anyone tried this? Dan Fink Buckville Energy IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 12:05 PM, Darren Anderson wrote: > I’d also be interested to know if anyone is doing active or passive > cooling for battery banks and what solutions they have come up with. We > have been exploring various options including solar direct drive cooling, > DC aircon units, and high efficiency AC aircon units. > > As far as I know there are no solar direct drive solutions that are > commercially available or affordable. There are options in DC-powered units > - used frequently in the Telecom industry. But the easiest solution, > especially for AC coupled systems, could be high efficiency AC units that > could be made to operate with photocell control for daytime operation only. > One could just cool an insulated battery box, or better yet, the entire > control room since heat is also the enemy of electronics and it might > extend the life of inverters and charge controllers as well. > _________________________ > Darren Anderson | Project Manager > Solar Electric Light Fund | www.SELF.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mick at abrahamsolar.com Mon May 25 15:59:04 2015 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Mon, 25 May 2015 13:59:04 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Array easily adjustable from 30 to 90 degrees Message-ID: Hi, Mechanix~ I got no reports from other purchasers about the "MT Solar" crating & packaging. My post to the List did, however, generate an "ouch!" from the manufacturer. Michael Welch has authorized me to relay MT's response to the List along with one of the 2015 packaging photos they sent. Here's what Janelle @ MT Solar:says: ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Hi Mick - One of our customers mentioned your post on Wrenches regarding our freight, and I wanted to reach out again and assure you that we have made several improvements to our method. We now strap and shrink wrap our pallets with heavy-duty plastic (see attached photos) and have had good luck with this so far. Although we've had our fair share of freight hiccups, I still have never, ever seen anything like what happened with your shipment. That was truly an anomaly and I can't begin to imagine what would go through someone's head as they cut apart a pallet and tossed it around piece by piece. To this day, I haven't used Midwest Motor Freight again. I would be delighted if you'd share these photos on Wrenches, or at least give our mounts another shot and post your own experience. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by the improvements. Please let me know if you still have any questions or concerns. Thank you! ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Mick concludes: Nobody could explain why my 2014 shipment from "MT Solar" arrived pre-unwrapped. "Worst. Freight. Experience. Ever." Maybe my bundles were dropped from a lofty height in a tall freight terminal. Maybe that unnamed trucker is "Murphy". Janelle worked hard to help us and she submitted a freight claim on our behalf. Seven months later, my customer got a phat check. If given the choice between paying full price for first quality or saving hundreds with "cosmetic seconds", he might have actually chosen the "seconds". Once some of the Mechanix on Re-Wrenches receive "MT Solar" shipments in good "teamster resistant" condition, I'm sure Janelle and all of us would appreciate seeing your feedback.on the List. I certainly will post a follow up once I get a chance to evaluate their packaging first hand. Pristine freight arrivals are important to us all. The Wrench List is the Bomb! Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Voice: 970-731-4675 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: MT Solar 2015 Packaging.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 98739 bytes Desc: not available URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Mon May 25 19:48:17 2015 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Mon, 25 May 2015 19:48:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Supply side In-Reply-To: <811788075B334B25B9A0A9F8CF59CC57@D8XG8YH1> References: <26C3EC91-D268-4F00-A9DF-36540376C189@gmail.com> <5561225F.6040805@midnitesolar.com> <55613FF4.1080409@solarray.com> <811788075B334B25B9A0A9F8CF59CC57@D8XG8YH1> Message-ID: Bill, One clean way to do it would be to use a ConnectDER, but the max input is 11.5 kw. We have used several of these for under 10 k installations and have saved lots of install time. They are not cheap (approx $300+). Our power company sells them to installers. John Blittersdorf Central Vermont Solar & Wind On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 12:39 AM, frenergy wrote: > Wrenches, > > Customer currently has a hacked up 200 amp Sylvania meter/mains > panel. He also is averaging a load of 74 KWhrs/day! which will require > about 15 KW system size at this site. Obviously a system this size cannot > backfeed the busses in the load center. Because the exiting panel is a > mess anyway, I'm suggesting it gets changed out. > > What sort of new 200 amp service would facilitate a clean supply > side connection. One thought is have separate Utility meter socket then a > 12 X 12 J-box with a monster power distribution block in it and then a > distribution panel (without the meter socket)...this being a way to insert > a means to grid-tie between the meter and the 200 amp main breaker. A > little spendy but nothing like going to higher amp service to be able to > load side connect. > > A 400 amp panel is not an option as the existing 165' of 3" pvc > underground conduit to the pole currently has 4/0 alum. The utility says > it would have to be 4" for the new cable and the cost $10K+ for the upgrade. > > Other ideas?? > > Thanks in advance > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Mon May 25 19:58:32 2015 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Mon, 25 May 2015 16:58:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] ConnectDER In-Reply-To: References: <26C3EC91-D268-4F00-A9DF-36540376C189@gmail.com> <5561225F.6040805@midnitesolar.com> <55613FF4.1080409@solarray.com> <811788075B334B25B9A0A9F8CF59CC57@D8XG8YH1> Message-ID: <1432598312.60728626@webmail.finestplanet.com> wow, engenius. thanks for posting this. [ http://connectder.com/products ]( http://connectder.com/products ) todd On Monday, May 25, 2015 4:48pm, "John Blittersdorf" said: Bill, One clean way to do it would be to use a ConnectDER, but the max input is 11.5 kw. We have used several of these for under 10 k installations and have saved lots of install time. They are not cheap (approx $300+). Our power company sells them to installers. John Blittersdorf Central Vermont Solar & Wind On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 12:39 AM, frenergy <[ frenergy at psln.com ]( mailto:frenergy at psln.com )> wrote: Wrenches, Customer currently has a hacked up 200 amp Sylvania meter/mains panel. He also is averaging a load of 74 KWhrs/day! which will require about 15 KW system size at this site. Obviously a system this size cannot backfeed the busses in the load center. Because the exiting panel is a mess anyway, I'm suggesting it gets changed out. What sort of new 200 amp service would facilitate a clean supply side connection. One thought is have separate Utility meter socket then a 12 X 12 J-box with a monster power distribution block in it and then a distribution panel (without the meter socket)...this being a way to insert a means to grid-tie between the meter and the 200 amp main breaker. A little spendy but nothing like going to higher amp service to be able to load side connect. A 400 amp panel is not an option as the existing 165' of 3" pvc underground conduit to the pole currently has 4/0 alum. The utility says it would have to be 4" for the new cable and the cost $10K+ for the upgrade. Other ideas?? Thanks in advance Bill Feather River Solar Electric _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: [ RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ) Change listserver email address & settings: [ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ]( http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ) List-Archive: [ http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html ]( http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html ) List rules & etiquette: [ www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ]( http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ) Check out or update participant bios: [ www.members.re-wrenches.org ]( http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ) Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Mon May 25 20:09:45 2015 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Mon, 25 May 2015 20:09:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lightning Strike Fries Array In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wayne, I have successfully repaired Evergreen EC110's with the potted J-Box by whittling out the potting material (which fortunately was clear) around the diode and soldering in new ones. We just repaired 4 for a customer. Tedious but worth the effort. All 4 were repaired in a little over an hour of shop time. John Blittersdorf Central Vermont Solar & Wind > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Mon May 25 22:03:42 2015 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Mon, 25 May 2015 22:03:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Supply side In-Reply-To: References: <26C3EC91-D268-4F00-A9DF-36540376C189@gmail.com> <5561225F.6040805@midnitesolar.com> <55613FF4.1080409@solarray.com> <811788075B334B25B9A0A9F8CF59CC57@D8XG8YH1> Message-ID: <20150526020355.C98FE10318@che.dreamhost.com> Indeed, refer to the latest issue of Home Power for another installer's positive experience with this device. Sincerely, Glenn Burt Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. -----Original Message----- From: "John Blittersdorf" Sent: ‎5/‎25/‎2015 19:48 To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Supply side Bill, One clean way to do it would be to use a ConnectDER, but the max input is 11.5 kw. We have used several of these for under 10 k installations and have saved lots of install time. They are not cheap (approx $300+). Our power company sells them to installers. John Blittersdorf Central Vermont Solar & Wind On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 12:39 AM, frenergy wrote: > Wrenches, > > Customer currently has a hacked up 200 amp Sylvania meter/mains > panel. He also is averaging a load of 74 KWhrs/day! which will require > about 15 KW system size at this site. Obviously a system this size cannot > backfeed the busses in the load center. Because the exiting panel is a > mess anyway, I'm suggesting it gets changed out. > > What sort of new 200 amp service would facilitate a clean supply > side connection. One thought is have separate Utility meter socket then a > 12 X 12 J-box with a monster power distribution block in it and then a > distribution panel (without the meter socket)...this being a way to insert > a means to grid-tie between the meter and the 200 amp main breaker. A > little spendy but nothing like going to higher amp service to be able to > load side connect. > > A 400 amp panel is not an option as the existing 165' of 3" pvc > underground conduit to the pole currently has 4/0 alum. The utility says > it would have to be 4" for the new cable and the cost $10K+ for the upgrade. > > Other ideas?? > > Thanks in advance > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon May 25 22:02:02 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay peltz) Date: Mon, 25 May 2015 19:02:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback opticsRE communication Message-ID: Hi all Any recommendations for communications from mate 3 to router? Power line carrier, wifi, parts? Thanks Jay Peltz power -- Jay Peltz Peltz Power jay.peltz at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon May 25 15:49:50 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 25 May 2015 15:49:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery set points with larger arrays In-Reply-To: <414D424906AE60489EF1829E1EFA55712C9C6C9E@sbc-exch.sbcdomain.local> References: <414D424906AE60489EF1829E1EFA55712C9C6C9E@sbc-exch.sbcdomain.local> Message-ID: Steve, Can you elaborate on how heat affects batteries that sit in float service at high temperatures? What kind of cycle/capacity changes can we expect? Say, for example, that a bank of S-530 batteries are 5 years old and have spent days at 40C and nights at 25C, and have essentially been in float service except for a couple dozen cycles to 50% over the years. If these batteries are now put into regular daily cycles at the same temperatures, would they act much differently than batteries that were stored at a constant 25C? I guess my question boils down to whether cycling during high temperatures is more damaging than just being "stored" at high temperatures. Thanks, Jason On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 1:14 PM, Steve Higgins wrote: > Typically you want the BTS installed and any and every case… The BTS > should be installed below the level of the plates not on the top of the > battery. To do this you need to have the BTS about 1/3 to ½ the way down > the side (Single Wall) of the battery, and I would suggest running some > duct tape around the battery on the sensor to keep it on the side of the > battery. > > > > For a Double wall battery, Although the sensor will be close, it will get > better readings in between the plastic walls. To do so you can pull the > top off the battery and put it between the walls. There is usually some > black silicone around the pos/neg terminals, all you need to do is replace > that with regular old RTV silicone… > > > > Post mounts are okay, but Surrette prefers the side mounts with another > method of securing the sensors… The post mounts only sense the plate temp, > not the overall temp of the battery. > > > > Temperature is a killer, and my years at Outback, and Trace I had no idea > of how damaging this was until I came to work for Surrette. > > For every 10 Degrees C above 25 you lose 50% of your life cycles… For > example if you installed these in the Mojave desert where six month of the > year they would reach 95F+ you would probably lose about 25-30% of your > life cycles… One of the ways to combat this if you can is vault them…it’s a > lot of work, but the earth even in those environments will keep them > cooler. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Steve Higgins Technical Services Manager *P: +1.902.597.4020 > M: +1.206.790.5840 > F: +1.902.597.8447 > > *Surrette Battery Company *Exclusive manufacturer of > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Ray Walters > *Sent:* Saturday, May 23, 2015 8:05 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery setpoints with larger arrays > > > > Having the LVD be temperature compensated so that the load is always > disconnected above the freeze point of the battery would be a Huge > Improvement on the whole concept of LVD. In combination with State of > Charge monitoring, like the Whiz bang Jr, would be the most effective, and > just program the disconnect to stay above freezing for a typical lead acid > battery. I got this from a Trojan White Paper: > > > R.Ray Walters > > CTO, Solarray, Inc > > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > > Licensed Master Electrician > > Solar Design Engineer > > 303 505-8760 > > > > > FLA batteries will freeze easier if they are discharged. I suppose that > you could > use the battery temp sensor to make sure you charge them up good when > the temp gets cold enough. > > boB > > This email and its attachments have been scanned by mailWatch E-Mail > Firewall for viruses, spam, and malicious content. The information > transmitted in this email is intended only for the entity or person to > which it is addressed and may contain confidential/privileged material. If > you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the > material from any computer. Any review, retransmission, dissemination, or > other use of this information by persons or entities other than the > intended recipient is strictly prohibited > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 42122 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: rollsafb380 Type: image/jpeg Size: 11941 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tom at ecs-solar.com Mon May 25 17:58:37 2015 From: tom at ecs-solar.com (Tom Lane) Date: Mon, 25 May 2015 17:58:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Water Heater Heat Pumps Message-ID: <5190D0C8-920E-4E73-B3BB-E70AFE977357@ecs-solar.com> Water heater heat pumps make excellent sense in a garage in HOT HUMID SOUTHERN CLIMATES and about 700 square feet of garage space is necessary AND you must run a condensate line like an air conditioner . DO NOT PUT THEM IN CLOSETS AND OR SMALL LAUNDRY ROOMS UNLESS YOU CAN VENT 700 square feet of unconditioned air space to them . They are noisy , but a garage in a humid hot southern climate is a good choice and with a time clock set for 11:00 AM to 4: 00 PM when the air in the garage is hot AND solar grid tied system is operating is a great strategy . GatorTom Sent from my iPad From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon May 25 19:42:44 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay peltz) Date: Mon, 25 May 2015 16:42:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery set points with larger arrays In-Reply-To: <414D424906AE60489EF1829E1EFA55712C9C6C9E@sbc-exch.sbcdomain.local> References: <414D424906AE60489EF1829E1EFA55712C9C6C9E@sbc-exch.sbcdomain.local> Message-ID: HI Steve, Can you explain the difference between plate temperature and over all battery temperature? What sort of temperature difference are you seeing? IE post is hotter or cooler and by how much. thanks jay On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 10:14 AM, Steve Higgins wrote: > Typically you want the BTS installed and any and every case… The BTS > should be installed below the level of the plates not on the top of the > battery. To do this you need to have the BTS about 1/3 to ½ the way down > the side (Single Wall) of the battery, and I would suggest running some > duct tape around the battery on the sensor to keep it on the side of the > battery. > > > > For a Double wall battery, Although the sensor will be close, it will get > better readings in between the plastic walls. To do so you can pull the > top off the battery and put it between the walls. There is usually some > black silicone around the pos/neg terminals, all you need to do is replace > that with regular old RTV silicone… > > > > Post mounts are okay, but Surrette prefers the side mounts with another > method of securing the sensors… The post mounts only sense the plate temp, > not the overall temp of the battery. > > > > Temperature is a killer, and my years at Outback, and Trace I had no idea > of how damaging this was until I came to work for Surrette. > > For every 10 Degrees C above 25 you lose 50% of your life cycles… For > example if you installed these in the Mojave desert where six month of the > year they would reach 95F+ you would probably lose about 25-30% of your > life cycles… One of the ways to combat this if you can is vault them…it’s a > lot of work, but the earth even in those environments will keep them > cooler. > > > > > > > > *Steve Higgins Technical Services Manager *P: +1.902.597.4020 > M: +1.206.790.5840 > F: +1.902.597.8447 > > *Surrette Battery Company* > -- Jay Peltz Peltz Power jay.peltz at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon May 25 12:31:46 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 25 May 2015 12:31:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Supply side In-Reply-To: <811788075B334B25B9A0A9F8CF59CC57@D8XG8YH1> References: <26C3EC91-D268-4F00-A9DF-36540376C189@gmail.com> <5561225F.6040805@midnitesolar.com> <55613FF4.1080409@solarray.com> <811788075B334B25B9A0A9F8CF59CC57@D8XG8YH1> Message-ID: If you are looking for Square D, Page 1-24: http://static.schneider-electric.us/assets/digest/17601.pdf There is a solar ready lug kit (part number SR69094A) to add lugs to the line side of the main breaker. The easiest combination devices I have seen have a separate standard 2-pole breaker that is a separate service disconnect. We see these a lot, but usually the second service disconnect is already feeding a pool subpanel or detached garage. Regardless of what you choose, make sure it's on the "approved list" with your utility. [image: Logo-Sq-80.png] Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer Florida Solar Design Group (239) 491-8010 office (239) 322-5079 direct/mobile Authorized Sales Agent for Fafco Solar [image: Fafco-Solar-Enphase-Logo.png] License CVC56701 On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 12:39 AM, frenergy wrote: > Wrenches, > > Customer currently has a hacked up 200 amp Sylvania meter/mains > panel. He also is averaging a load of 74 KWhrs/day! which will require > about 15 KW system size at this site. Obviously a system this size cannot > backfeed the busses in the load center. Because the exiting panel is a > mess anyway, I'm suggesting it gets changed out. > > What sort of new 200 amp service would facilitate a clean supply > side connection. One thought is have separate Utility meter socket then a > 12 X 12 J-box with a monster power distribution block in it and then a > distribution panel (without the meter socket)...this being a way to insert > a means to grid-tie between the meter and the 200 amp main breaker. A > little spendy but nothing like going to higher amp service to be able to > load side connect. > > A 400 amp panel is not an option as the existing 165' of 3" pvc > underground conduit to the pole currently has 4/0 alum. The utility says > it would have to be 4" for the new cable and the cost $10K+ for the upgrade. > > Other ideas?? > > Thanks in advance > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirk at vtsolar.com Tue May 26 01:10:45 2015 From: kirk at vtsolar.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 01:10:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback opticsRE communication In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003601d09772$52e723d0$f8b56b70$@vtsolar.com> Jay, I have a unique system with both a 10kw Solaredge and a 12kw Outback radian setup. From the router I use AC powerline adapters to the inverter room. There I use a multi-port internet switch and both Solaredge inverter and Mate3 are plugged into it. Works fine. Kirk Herander VT Solar, LLC Proven PV provider since 1991 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay peltz Sent: Monday, May 25, 2015 10:02 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback opticsRE communication Hi all Any recommendations for communications from mate 3 to router? Power line carrier, wifi, parts? Thanks Jay Peltz power -- Jay Peltz Peltz Power jay.peltz at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Tue May 26 10:32:16 2015 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 14:32:16 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery set points with larger arrays In-Reply-To: References: <414D424906AE60489EF1829E1EFA55712C9C6C9E@sbc-exch.sbcdomain.local> Message-ID: <414D424906AE60489EF1829E1EFA55712C9C70DD@sbc-exch.sbcdomain.local> Jason, Even a battery stored in a warehouse at say 35C before even put into service can/will degrade. It won’t degrade much over such a short period of time of storage, but even batteries that sit for years if they are not boosted properly and kept in that 77F range (25C) can develop issues. Higher temps, above 25C regardless of manufacture (Lead Acid) always reduces life cycle, lower temps, below 25C reduce overall capacity. That capacity does recover once the battery temperature recovers. Unfortunately high temperatures you don’t get recovery, because you’ve actually caused plate damage. When it comes to stocking temperatures, if your battery supplier is in the South west, most of them manage stock fairly well, but there are still some who don’t seem to understand. It’s always prudent to note the shipping dates on the batteries just to make sure you’re getting fresh stock. It’s also a good idea to check SG’s at the distributors location just to make sure that they’ve been boosted before you accept them. When designing for heat you just have to figure a “duty” cycle, If the installation is in the south west about 1/3 to ½ the time they are going to be hotter than normal. If I was installing in BCS Mexico, unless you added air conditioning to the battery room you are going to see a 20-30% degradation in life cycles because 4-6 months of the year the average battery easily see’s 90-100 degree temps… If installing in Alberta Canada, and the residents are full time, I may add capacity due to excessive cold temps during the winter. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Monday, May 25, 2015 12:50 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery set points with larger arrays Steve, Can you elaborate on how heat affects batteries that sit in float service at high temperatures? What kind of cycle/capacity changes can we expect? Say, for example, that a bank of S-530 batteries are 5 years old and have spent days at 40C and nights at 25C, and have essentially been in float service except for a couple dozen cycles to 50% over the years. If these batteries are now put into regular daily cycles at the same temperatures, would they act much differently than batteries that were stored at a constant 25C? I guess my question boils down to whether cycling during high temperatures is more damaging than just being "stored" at high temperatures. Thanks, Jason On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 1:14 PM, Steve Higgins > wrote: Typically you want the BTS installed and any and every case… The BTS should be installed below the level of the plates not on the top of the battery. To do this you need to have the BTS about 1/3 to ½ the way down the side (Single Wall) of the battery, and I would suggest running some duct tape around the battery on the sensor to keep it on the side of the battery. For a Double wall battery, Although the sensor will be close, it will get better readings in between the plastic walls. To do so you can pull the top off the battery and put it between the walls. There is usually some black silicone around the pos/neg terminals, all you need to do is replace that with regular old RTV silicone… Post mounts are okay, but Surrette prefers the side mounts with another method of securing the sensors… The post mounts only sense the plate temp, not the overall temp of the battery. Temperature is a killer, and my years at Outback, and Trace I had no idea of how damaging this was until I came to work for Surrette. For every 10 Degrees C above 25 you lose 50% of your life cycles… For example if you installed these in the Mojave desert where six month of the year they would reach 95F+ you would probably lose about 25-30% of your life cycles… One of the ways to combat this if you can is vault them…it’s a lot of work, but the earth even in those environments will keep them cooler. Steve Higgins Technical Services Manager P: +1.902.597.4020 M: +1.206.790.5840 F: +1.902.597.8447 Surrette Battery Company Exclusive manufacturer of [cid:image002.jpg at 01D09781.6AFE2400] From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2015 8:05 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery setpoints with larger arrays Having the LVD be temperature compensated so that the load is always disconnected above the freeze point of the battery would be a Huge Improvement on the whole concept of LVD. In combination with State of Charge monitoring, like the Whiz bang Jr, would be the most effective, and just program the disconnect to stay above freezing for a typical lead acid battery. I got this from a Trojan White Paper: [cid:image003.jpg at 01D09781.6AFE2400] R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 FLA batteries will freeze easier if they are discharged. I suppose that you could use the battery temp sensor to make sure you charge them up good when the temp gets cold enough. boB This email and its attachments have been scanned by mailWatch E-Mail Firewall for viruses, spam, and malicious content. The information transmitted in this email is intended only for the entity or person to which it is addressed and may contain confidential/privileged material. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any review, retransmission, dissemination, or other use of this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org This email and its attachments have been scanned by mailWatch E-Mail Firewall for viruses, spam, and malicious content. The information transmitted in this email is intended only for the entity or person to which it is addressed and may contain confidential/privileged material. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any review, retransmission, dissemination, or other use of this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 11941 bytes Desc: image002.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 42122 bytes Desc: image003.jpg URL: From steve at surrette.com Tue May 26 10:48:47 2015 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 14:48:47 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery set points with larger arrays In-Reply-To: References: <414D424906AE60489EF1829E1EFA55712C9C6C9E@sbc-exch.sbcdomain.local> Message-ID: <414D424906AE60489EF1829E1EFA55712C9C7112@sbc-exch.sbcdomain.local> There are many things that can affect that post temperature, so to get the overall temperature of the battery on the side of the battery tends to be more accurate. When I take temp measurements on a flooded battery it’s primarily the electrolyte temp via the well. If I suspect a shorted plate/cell I will do the side of the battery, if I suspect a loose connection I’ll check the posts, both pos and neg. Most of the time just by checking the electrolyte well, you will detect most temperature problems with the temp of the electrolyte, but the electrolyte being made up mostly of water will also act as a heat sink, so it’s best to have a temp sensor attached to the side, about 1/3 below the top level of the plates. A post temp sensor it just measuring the neg, or positive grouping, if there is an problem with the opposite grouping, or physically elsewhere in the battery the post sensor may not see the added heat while the side sensor will see the added heat within the electrolyte. Some, not all of the post sensors can be mounted on the post or the side of the battery, Rolls likes the side mount better in general. If you had a choice between a post mount sensor and no sensor at all I would choose the post mounted sensor as something is always better than nothing. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay peltz Sent: Monday, May 25, 2015 4:43 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery set points with larger arrays HI Steve, Can you explain the difference between plate temperature and over all battery temperature? What sort of temperature difference are you seeing? IE post is hotter or cooler and by how much. thanks jay On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 10:14 AM, Steve Higgins > wrote: Typically you want the BTS installed and any and every case… The BTS should be installed below the level of the plates not on the top of the battery. To do this you need to have the BTS about 1/3 to ½ the way down the side (Single Wall) of the battery, and I would suggest running some duct tape around the battery on the sensor to keep it on the side of the battery. For a Double wall battery, Although the sensor will be close, it will get better readings in between the plastic walls. To do so you can pull the top off the battery and put it between the walls. There is usually some black silicone around the pos/neg terminals, all you need to do is replace that with regular old RTV silicone… Post mounts are okay, but Surrette prefers the side mounts with another method of securing the sensors… The post mounts only sense the plate temp, not the overall temp of the battery. Temperature is a killer, and my years at Outback, and Trace I had no idea of how damaging this was until I came to work for Surrette. For every 10 Degrees C above 25 you lose 50% of your life cycles… For example if you installed these in the Mojave desert where six month of the year they would reach 95F+ you would probably lose about 25-30% of your life cycles… One of the ways to combat this if you can is vault them…it’s a lot of work, but the earth even in those environments will keep them cooler. Steve Higgins Technical Services Manager P: +1.902.597.4020 M: +1.206.790.5840 F: +1.902.597.8447 Surrette Battery Company -- Jay Peltz Peltz Power jay.peltz at gmail.com Steve Higgins Technical Services Manager P: +1.902.597.4020 M: +1.206.790.5840 F: +1.902.597.8447 Surrette Battery Company Exclusive manufacturer of [cid:rollsad3206] This email and its attachments have been scanned by mailWatch E-Mail Firewall for viruses, spam, and malicious content. The information transmitted in this email is intended only for the entity or person to which it is addressed and may contain confidential/privileged material. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any review, retransmission, dissemination, or other use of this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: rollsad3206 Type: image/jpeg Size: 11941 bytes Desc: rollsad3206 URL: From dana at solarwork.com Tue May 26 10:53:57 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 08:53:57 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Water Heater Heat Pumps In-Reply-To: <5190D0C8-920E-4E73-B3BB-E70AFE977357@ecs-solar.com> References: <5190D0C8-920E-4E73-B3BB-E70AFE977357@ecs-solar.com> Message-ID: <00dc01d097c3$cbfb8620$63f29260$@com> What kind of power draw do you see on this unit? & what kind of duty cycle do you see for 2 people or 4 people? I amp clamped a 1800 sqft house heat pump for DHW & house heat in full power and measured 4338 watts & have a rough time recommending heat pumps for off grid. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Tom Lane Sent: Monday, May 25, 2015 3:59 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Water Heater Heat Pumps Water heater heat pumps make excellent sense in a garage in HOT HUMID SOUTHERN CLIMATES and about 700 square feet of garage space is necessary AND you must run a condensate line like an air conditioner . DO NOT PUT THEM IN CLOSETS AND OR SMALL LAUNDRY ROOMS UNLESS YOU CAN VENT 700 square feet of unconditioned air space to them . They are noisy , but a garage in a humid hot southern climate is a good choice and with a time clock set for 11:00 AM to 4: 00 PM when the air in the garage is hot AND solar grid tied system is operating is a great strategy . GatorTom Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From daveclick at fsec.ucf.edu Tue May 26 11:10:55 2015 From: daveclick at fsec.ucf.edu (Dave Click) Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 11:10:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ConnectDER In-Reply-To: <1432598312.60728626@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <26C3EC91-D268-4F00-A9DF-36540376C189@gmail.com> <5561225F.6040805@midnitesolar.com> <55613FF4.1080409@solarray.com> <811788075B334B25B9A0A9F8CF59CC57@D8XG8YH1> <1432598312.60728626@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: <55648CFF.1020100@fsec.ucf.edu> I have had two of these on my house (I upgraded my system, so had to get a larger model) and I really like them. Great guys at the company and great product. Major issue is that most utilities don't have a blanket allowance for meter collars like this one, so you may end up spending a fair amount of time trying to get a utility's approval without guarantee of success. For utilities who think that customer-owned PV is The Devil, it could be a tough sell trying to get them to make your job easier. This can be a lifesaver on some projects where strict 690.64 compliance can be expensive-- encountering a 60A interconnection on a 150A service makes this worth fighting for, especially on all-in-ones or older equipment that the homeowner isn't ready to replace. Dave On 2015/5/25 19:58, toddcory at finestplanet.com wrote: > > wow, engenius. thanks for posting this. > > http://connectder.com/products > > todd > > > > On Monday, May 25, 2015 4:48pm, "John Blittersdorf" > said: > > Bill, > One clean way to do it would be to use a ConnectDER, but the max > input is 11.5 kw. We have used several of these for under 10 k > installations and have saved lots of install time. They are not > cheap (approx $300+). Our power company sells them to installers. > John Blittersdorf > Central Vermont Solar & Wind > > On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 12:39 AM, frenergy > wrote: > > Wrenches, > Customer currently has a hacked up 200 amp Sylvania > meter/mains panel. He also is averaging a load of 74 KWhrs/day! > which will require about 15 KW system size at this site. > Obviously a system this size cannot backfeed the busses in the > load center. Because the exiting panel is a mess anyway, I'm > suggesting it gets changed out. > What sort of new 200 amp service would facilitate a clean > supply side connection. One thought is have separate Utility > meter socket then a 12 X 12 J-box with a monster power > distribution block in it and then a distribution panel (without > the meter socket)...this being a way to insert a means to grid-tie > between the meter and the 200 amp main breaker. A little spendy > but nothing like going to higher amp service to be able to load > side connect. > A 400 amp panel is not an option as the existing 165' of > 3" pvc underground conduit to the pole currently has 4/0 alum. > The utility says it would have to be 4" for the new cable and the > cost $10K+ for the upgrade. > Other ideas?? > Thanks in advance > Bill > Feather River Solar Electric > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rebekah.hren at gmail.com Tue May 26 11:27:21 2015 From: rebekah.hren at gmail.com (Rebekah Hren) Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 11:27:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ConnectDER In-Reply-To: <55648CFF.1020100@fsec.ucf.edu> References: <26C3EC91-D268-4F00-A9DF-36540376C189@gmail.com> <5561225F.6040805@midnitesolar.com> <55613FF4.1080409@solarray.com> <811788075B334B25B9A0A9F8CF59CC57@D8XG8YH1> <1432598312.60728626@webmail.finestplanet.com> <55648CFF.1020100@fsec.ucf.edu> Message-ID: Relevant article in HP includes good commentary: http://www.homepower.com/articles/solar-electricity/design-installation/methods-streamlined-supply-side-interconnection On Tue, May 26, 2015 at 11:10 AM, Dave Click wrote: > I have had two of these on my house (I upgraded my system, so had to get > a larger model) and I really like them. Great guys at the company and great > product. Major issue is that most utilities don't have a blanket allowance > for meter collars like this one, so you may end up spending a fair amount > of time trying to get a utility's approval without guarantee of success. > For utilities who think that customer-owned PV is The Devil, it could be a > tough sell trying to get them to make your job easier. This can be a > lifesaver on some projects where strict 690.64 compliance can be > expensive-- encountering a 60A interconnection on a 150A service makes this > worth fighting for, especially on all-in-ones or older equipment that the > homeowner isn't ready to replace. > > Dave > > > > > On 2015/5/25 19:58, toddcory at finestplanet.com wrote: > > wow, engenius. thanks for posting this. > > > > http://connectder.com/products > > > > todd > > > > > > > > > > On Monday, May 25, 2015 4:48pm, "John Blittersdorf" > said: > > Bill, > One clean way to do it would be to use a ConnectDER, but the max input > is 11.5 kw. We have used several of these for under 10 k installations and > have saved lots of install time. They are not cheap (approx $300+). Our > power company sells them to installers. > John Blittersdorf > Central Vermont Solar & Wind > > On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 12:39 AM, frenergy wrote: > >> Wrenches, >> >> Customer currently has a hacked up 200 amp Sylvania meter/mains >> panel. He also is averaging a load of 74 KWhrs/day! which will require >> about 15 KW system size at this site. Obviously a system this size cannot >> backfeed the busses in the load center. Because the exiting panel is a >> mess anyway, I'm suggesting it gets changed out. >> >> What sort of new 200 amp service would facilitate a clean supply >> side connection. One thought is have separate Utility meter socket then a >> 12 X 12 J-box with a monster power distribution block in it and then a >> distribution panel (without the meter socket)...this being a way to insert >> a means to grid-tie between the meter and the 200 amp main breaker. A >> little spendy but nothing like going to higher amp service to be able to >> load side connect. >> >> A 400 amp panel is not an option as the existing 165' of 3" pvc >> underground conduit to the pole currently has 4/0 alum. The utility says >> it would have to be 4" for the new cable and the cost $10K+ for the upgrade. >> >> Other ideas?? >> >> Thanks in advance >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Tel: 336.266.8800 NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 NC Licensed Electrical Contractor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue May 26 11:04:35 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 11:04:35 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ConnectDER In-Reply-To: <1432598312.60728626@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <26C3EC91-D268-4F00-A9DF-36540376C189@gmail.com> <5561225F.6040805@midnitesolar.com> <55613FF4.1080409@solarray.com> <811788075B334B25B9A0A9F8CF59CC57@D8XG8YH1> <1432598312.60728626@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: My understanding is that this needs to be approved by each individual utility like any collar device (i.e. surge suppression). The process is not extremely simple, but the manufacturer is looking to establish more utility relationships. I put them in contact with our two local utilities, but no word yet on approval. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 7:58 PM, wrote: > wow, engenius. thanks for posting this. > > > > http://connectder.com/products > > > > todd > > > > > > > > > > On Monday, May 25, 2015 4:48pm, "John Blittersdorf" < > john.blittersdorf at gmail.com> said: > > Bill, > One clean way to do it would be to use a ConnectDER, but the max input > is 11.5 kw. We have used several of these for under 10 k installations and > have saved lots of install time. They are not cheap (approx $300+). Our > power company sells them to installers. > John Blittersdorf > Central Vermont Solar & Wind > > On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 12:39 AM, frenergy wrote: > >> Wrenches, >> >> Customer currently has a hacked up 200 amp Sylvania meter/mains >> panel. He also is averaging a load of 74 KWhrs/day! which will require >> about 15 KW system size at this site. Obviously a system this size cannot >> backfeed the busses in the load center. Because the exiting panel is a >> mess anyway, I'm suggesting it gets changed out. >> >> What sort of new 200 amp service would facilitate a clean supply >> side connection. One thought is have separate Utility meter socket then a >> 12 X 12 J-box with a monster power distribution block in it and then a >> distribution panel (without the meter socket)...this being a way to insert >> a means to grid-tie between the meter and the 200 amp main breaker. A >> little spendy but nothing like going to higher amp service to be able to >> load side connect. >> >> A 400 amp panel is not an option as the existing 165' of 3" pvc >> underground conduit to the pole currently has 4/0 alum. The utility says >> it would have to be 4" for the new cable and the cost $10K+ for the upgrade. >> >> Other ideas?? >> >> Thanks in advance >> >> Bill >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Tue May 26 11:30:22 2015 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 08:30:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Water Heater Heat Pumps References: <5190D0C8-920E-4E73-B3BB-E70AFE977357@ecs-solar.com> <00dc01d097c3$cbfb8620$63f29260$@com> Message-ID: <6D304A08160040ABABC346905DE8D794@D8XG8YH1> Dana, I am no expert with ground source heat pumps, but I suspect that the measurement you took was when the resistance heat strips were on, which will only be used very infrequently in a properly designed and operated GSHP system. Despite that, GSHP can be used off-grid with the heat strips off, but add a couple more KWs to the array and insulate the heck out of the structure, plus I suggest a LPG back-up. GSHP's are not a slam-dunk install. It is very important to find someone that will take a careful look at the particulars of a job (house, climate zone, soil type, etc....) to be sure the final product is efficient in its operation, esp for off-grid. Bill Feather River Solar Electric ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dana" To: "'RE-wrenches'" Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2015 7:53 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Water Heater Heat Pumps > What kind of power draw do you see on this unit? & what kind of duty cycle do you see for 2 people or 4 people? > > I amp clamped a 1800 sqft house heat pump for DHW & house heat in full power and measured 4338 watts & have a rough time recommending heat pumps for off grid. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dana Orzel > Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 > E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com > O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >  Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Tom Lane > Sent: Monday, May 25, 2015 3:59 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Water Heater Heat Pumps > > Water heater heat pumps make excellent sense in a garage in HOT HUMID SOUTHERN CLIMATES and about 700 square feet of garage space is necessary AND you must run a condensate line like an air conditioner . DO NOT PUT THEM IN CLOSETS AND OR SMALL LAUNDRY ROOMS UNLESS YOU CAN VENT 700 square feet of unconditioned air space to them . They are noisy , but a garage in a humid hot southern climate is a good choice and with a time clock set for 11:00 AM to 4: 00 PM when the air in the garage is hot AND solar grid tied system is operating is a great strategy . GatorTom > > Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Tue May 26 12:35:05 2015 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (William Dorsett) Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 11:35:05 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Water Heater Heat Pumps In-Reply-To: <00dc01d097c3$cbfb8620$63f29260$@com> References: <5190D0C8-920E-4E73-B3BB-E70AFE977357@ecs-solar.com> <00dc01d097c3$cbfb8620$63f29260$@com> Message-ID: <012a01d097d1$ecc92a70$c65b7f50$@sbcglobal.net> Dan was this a mini-split? The one's I've installed (typically not for 1800sqft house) spec AWG 14 or 12 so the full power draw on these can't be anywhere near that. In fact, there are two or three which are PV direct i.e.: http://www.hotspotenergy.com/solar-air-conditioner/HotSpot-ACDC12b.pdf which looks rebranded but with a SEER of 35, it's certainly worth a look. Gree also has one for which I don't have the tech sheet. The highest AC brand that I know of is Fujitsu and the SEER on it is ~26. Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dana Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2015 9:54 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Water Heater Heat Pumps What kind of power draw do you see on this unit? & what kind of duty cycle do you see for 2 people or 4 people? I amp clamped a 1800 sqft house heat pump for DHW & house heat in full power and measured 4338 watts & have a rough time recommending heat pumps for off grid. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Tom Lane Sent: Monday, May 25, 2015 3:59 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Water Heater Heat Pumps Water heater heat pumps make excellent sense in a garage in HOT HUMID SOUTHERN CLIMATES and about 700 square feet of garage space is necessary AND you must run a condensate line like an air conditioner . DO NOT PUT THEM IN CLOSETS AND OR SMALL LAUNDRY ROOMS UNLESS YOU CAN VENT 700 square feet of unconditioned air space to them . They are noisy , but a garage in a humid hot southern climate is a good choice and with a time clock set for 11:00 AM to 4: 00 PM when the air in the garage is hot AND solar grid tied system is operating is a great strategy . GatorTom Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From solar1online at charter.net Tue May 26 14:04:58 2015 From: solar1online at charter.net (Bill Loesch) Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 13:04:58 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Water Heater Heat Pumps In-Reply-To: <012a01d097d1$ecc92a70$c65b7f50$@sbcglobal.net> References: <5190D0C8-920E-4E73-B3BB-E70AFE977357@ecs-solar.com> <00dc01d097c3$cbfb8620$63f29260$@com> <012a01d097d1$ecc92a70$c65b7f50$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <5564B5CA.1060605@charter.net> Friends, Are we confusing two distinct technologies? Water Heater Heat Pumps are _not_ Water Source Heat Pumps. Thanks, Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 On 26-May-15 11:35 AM, William Dorsett wrote: > Dan was this a mini-split? The one's I've installed (typically not for 1800sqft house) spec AWG 14 or 12 so the full power draw on these can't be anywhere near that. In fact, there are two or three which are PV direct i.e.: > http://www.hotspotenergy.com/solar-air-conditioner/HotSpot-ACDC12b.pdf > > which looks rebranded but with a SEER of 35, it's certainly worth a look. Gree also has one for which I don't have the tech sheet. The highest AC brand that I know of is Fujitsu and the SEER on it is ~26. > > Bill Dorsett > Manhattan, KS > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dana > Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2015 9:54 AM > To: 'RE-wrenches' > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Water Heater Heat Pumps > > What kind of power draw do you see on this unit? & what kind of duty cycle do you see for 2 people or 4 people? > > I amp clamped a 1800 sqft house heat pump for DHW & house heat in full power and measured 4338 watts & have a rough time recommending heat pumps for off grid. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dana Orzel > Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Tom Lane > Sent: Monday, May 25, 2015 3:59 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Water Heater Heat Pumps > > Water heater heat pumps make excellent sense in a garage in HOT HUMID SOUTHERN CLIMATES and about 700 square feet of garage space is necessary AND you must run a condensate line like an air conditioner . DO NOT PUT THEM IN CLOSETS AND OR SMALL LAUNDRY ROOMS UNLESS YOU CAN VENT 700 square feet of unconditioned air space to them . They are noisy , but a garage in a humid hot southern climate is a good choice and with a time clock set for 11:00 AM to 4: 00 PM when the air in the garage is hot AND solar grid tied system is operating is a great strategy . GatorTom > > Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2015.0.5941 / Virus Database: 4354/9872 - Release Date: 05/26/15 > > ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5941 / Virus Database: 4354/9872 - Release Date: 05/26/15 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bill at berkssolar.com Tue May 26 14:36:19 2015 From: bill at berkssolar.com (Bill Hennessy) Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 18:36:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Water Heater Heat Pumps In-Reply-To: <00dc01d097c3$cbfb8620$63f29260$@com> References: <00dc01d097c3$cbfb8620$63f29260$@com> Message-ID: <255278335.1270095.1432665379388.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi folks,I'm a little confused. Is the heat pump water heater used w radiant floor heating to also heat the house? If so, 4338W/240v=18A.  Pretty good for dhw and house heating. If we convert 4338W to btuh, it's about 14,000 btuh and at 1800 sqft, about  8 btuh/sqft, again a good number for a heating load. Going to net zero carbon, a heat pump water heater in a garage or cellar might work well for a tight, well-insulated house. regards, bill  Bill Hennessy Berks Solar, LLC 371 Centennial Rd Mertztown, PA 19539 o 610 682 4300 c 484 560 4666 NABCEP certified installer PA contractor #44411 www.berkssolar.com From: Dana To: 'RE-wrenches' Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2015 10:53 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Water Heater Heat Pumps What kind of power draw do you see on this unit? & what kind of duty cycle do you see for 2 people or 4 people? I amp clamped a 1800 sqft house heat pump for DHW & house heat in full power and measured 4338 watts & have a rough time recommending heat pumps for off grid. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc -  NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com  - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253  C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"   Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Tom Lane Sent: Monday, May 25, 2015 3:59 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Water Heater Heat Pumps Water heater heat pumps make excellent sense in a garage in HOT HUMID SOUTHERN CLIMATES and about 700 square feet of garage space is necessary AND you must run a condensate line like an air conditioner . DO NOT PUT THEM IN CLOSETS AND OR SMALL LAUNDRY ROOMS UNLESS YOU CAN VENT 700 square feet of unconditioned air space to them . They are noisy , but a garage in a humid hot southern climate is a good choice and with a time clock set for 11:00 AM to 4: 00 PM when the air in the garage is hot AND solar grid tied system is operating is a great strategy . GatorTom Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Tue May 26 14:12:14 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 12:12:14 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Water Heater Heat Pumps In-Reply-To: <5564B5CA.1060605@charter.net> References: <5190D0C8-920E-4E73-B3BB-E70AFE977357@ecs-solar.com> <00dc01d097c3$cbfb8620$63f29260$@com> <012a01d097d1$ecc92a70$c65b7f50$@sbcglobal.net> <5564B5CA.1060605@charter.net> Message-ID: <014f01d097df$7f161840$7d4248c0$@com> The unit I clamped was a ground sourced heat pump. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill Loesch Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2015 12:05 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Water Heater Heat Pumps Friends, Are we confusing two distinct technologies? Water Heater Heat Pumps are not Water Source Heat Pumps. Thanks, Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 On 26-May-15 11:35 AM, William Dorsett wrote: Dan was this a mini-split? The one's I've installed (typically not for 1800sqft house) spec AWG 14 or 12 so the full power draw on these can't be anywhere near that. In fact, there are two or three which are PV direct i.e.: http://www.hotspotenergy.com/solar-air-conditioner/HotSpot-ACDC12b.pdf which looks rebranded but with a SEER of 35, it's certainly worth a look. Gree also has one for which I don't have the tech sheet. The highest AC brand that I know of is Fujitsu and the SEER on it is ~26. Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dana Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2015 9:54 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Water Heater Heat Pumps What kind of power draw do you see on this unit? & what kind of duty cycle do you see for 2 people or 4 people? I amp clamped a 1800 sqft house heat pump for DHW & house heat in full power and measured 4338 watts & have a rough time recommending heat pumps for off grid. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Tom Lane Sent: Monday, May 25, 2015 3:59 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Water Heater Heat Pumps Water heater heat pumps make excellent sense in a garage in HOT HUMID SOUTHERN CLIMATES and about 700 square feet of garage space is necessary AND you must run a condensate line like an air conditioner . DO NOT PUT THEM IN CLOSETS AND OR SMALL LAUNDRY ROOMS UNLESS YOU CAN VENT 700 square feet of unconditioned air space to them . They are noisy , but a garage in a humid hot southern climate is a good choice and with a time clock set for 11:00 AM to 4: 00 PM when the air in the garage is hot AND solar grid tied system is operating is a great strategy . GatorTom Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5941 / Virus Database: 4354/9872 - Release Date: 05/26/15 No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5941 / Virus Database: 4354/9872 - Release Date: 05/26/15 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Tue May 26 15:19:29 2015 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (wmdorsett) Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 14:19:29 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Water Heater Heat Pumps Message-ID: At 14,000 btus,  It is in easy range of even a small a mini-split. While the output is dumped into a large room, usually the living/dining, its heat or cool will in reasonable time get to the rest of the house. Bill Dorsett Manhattan.Ks Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Bill Hennessy
Date:05/26/2015 1:36 PM (GMT-06:00)
To: dana at solarwork.com, RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Water Heater Heat Pumps
Hi folks, I'm a little confused. Is the heat pump water heater used w radiant floor heating to also heat the house? If so, 4338W/240v=18A. Pretty good for dhw and house heating. If we convert 4338W to btuh, it's about 14,000 btuh and at 1800 sqft, about 8 btuh/sqft, again a good number for a heating load. Going to net zero carbon, a heat pump water heater in a garage or cellar might work well for a tight, well-insulated house. regards, bill Bill Hennessy Berks Solar, LLC 371 Centennial Rd Mertztown, PA 19539 o 610 682 4300 c 484 560 4666 NABCEP certified installer PA contractor #44411 www.berkssolar.com From: Dana To: 'RE-wrenches' Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2015 10:53 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Water Heater Heat Pumps What kind of power draw do you see on this unit? & what kind of duty cycle do you see for 2 people or 4 people? I amp clamped a 1800 sqft house heat pump for DHW & house heat in full power and measured 4338 watts & have a rough time recommending heat pumps for off grid. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Tom Lane Sent: Monday, May 25, 2015 3:59 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Water Heater Heat Pumps Water heater heat pumps make excellent sense in a garage in HOT HUMID SOUTHERN CLIMATES and about 700 square feet of garage space is necessary AND you must run a condensate line like an air conditioner . DO NOT PUT THEM IN CLOSETS AND OR SMALL LAUNDRY ROOMS UNLESS YOU CAN VENT 700 square feet of unconditioned air space to them . They are noisy , but a garage in a humid hot southern climate is a good choice and with a time clock set for 11:00 AM to 4: 00 PM when the air in the garage is hot AND solar grid tied system is operating is a great strategy . GatorTom Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tom at ecs-solar.com Tue May 26 17:35:13 2015 From: tom at ecs-solar.com (Tom Lane) Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 17:35:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hot water heater heat pumps Message-ID: <0AACA782-06AD-4F2F-B5F8-51F9F08E4B48@ecs-solar.com> The water heater heat pump tanks , I am referring to are ONLY FOR HEATING DOMESTIC HOT WATER for washing clothes , showers , baths , and dish washing . On April 15 the Feds mandated all new standards for water heaters , ALL ELECTRIC AND GAS HOT WATER HEATERS ARE NOW ABOUT TWO INCHES IN DIAMETER AND SIX INCHES TALLER that were MANUFACTURED AFTER THAT DATE . All 66 , 80 and 120 gallon electric water heaters were OUTLAWED except for Solar Hot Water Tanks and 80 gallon water heater heat pumps are allowed . The normal size 30 , 40 , and 55 gallon electric and gas water heaters are now wider and taller ! Water heater heat pump tanks are usually 55 or 50 gallons or 80 gallons and have a heat pump only , hybrid ( heat pump and electric ) , electric only and off modes - for vacation . The idiot Feds think they should be used all over the USA , however , my research , sez to only use them in hot humid climates in garages ( which they will cool and dehumidify ) in climates in the hot humid south and East Texas . Do your own research , or look at the research done at the Florida Solar Energy Center . GatorTom PS : rumor has it that the Feds may rescind the order from their hot water Czar on 80 and 120 gallon electric water heaters ! Or maybe they will send SWAT teams into plumbing supply houses to check on that and also their outlawing brass fittings with tiny amounts of lead . Sent from my iPad From pforest at southmountain.com Tue May 26 18:43:15 2015 From: pforest at southmountain.com (Phil Forest) Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 18:43:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hot water heater heat pumps In-Reply-To: <0AACA782-06AD-4F2F-B5F8-51F9F08E4B48@ecs-solar.com> References: <0AACA782-06AD-4F2F-B5F8-51F9F08E4B48@ecs-solar.com> Message-ID: <3EA620B5-1D93-4FB0-98A5-5ABB9BEA96E6@southmountain.com> Wrenches, My take so far on this great discussion about heat pump hot water heaters (HPHW's) for domestic hot water: A HPHW powered by off-grid PV could be very effective, if there was a timer which controlled it to only operate during daylight, so it doesn't load the batteries at night. And the HPHW cools and dries the appropriately large space where installed, which food, beer and batteries are stored. Phil Forest South Mountain Company > On May 26, 2015, at 5:35 PM, Tom Lane wrote: > > The water heater heat pump tanks , I am referring to are ONLY FOR HEATING DOMESTIC HOT WATER for washing clothes , showers , baths , and dish washing . On April 15 the Feds mandated all new standards for water heaters , ALL ELECTRIC AND GAS HOT WATER HEATERS ARE NOW ABOUT TWO INCHES IN DIAMETER AND SIX INCHES TALLER that were MANUFACTURED AFTER THAT DATE . All 66 , 80 and 120 gallon electric water heaters were OUTLAWED except for Solar Hot Water Tanks and 80 gallon water heater heat pumps are allowed . The normal size 30 , 40 , and 55 gallon electric and gas water heaters are now wider and taller ! Water heater heat pump tanks are usually 55 or 50 gallons or 80 gallons and have a heat pump only , hybrid ( heat pump and electric ) , electric only and off modes - for vacation . The idiot Feds think they should be used all over the USA , however , my research , sez to only use them in hot humid climates in garages ( which they will cool and dehumidify ) in climates in the h > ot humid south and East Texas . Do your own research , or look at the research done at the Florida Solar Energy Center . GatorTom PS : rumor has it that the Feds may rescind the order from their hot water Czar on 80 and 120 gallon electric water heaters ! Or maybe they will send SWAT teams into plumbing supply houses to check on that and also their outlawing brass fittings with tiny amounts of lead . > > > Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Tue May 26 18:59:29 2015 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar .) Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 15:59:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hot water heater heat pumps In-Reply-To: <3EA620B5-1D93-4FB0-98A5-5ABB9BEA96E6@southmountain.com> References: <0AACA782-06AD-4F2F-B5F8-51F9F08E4B48@ecs-solar.com> <3EA620B5-1D93-4FB0-98A5-5ABB9BEA96E6@southmountain.com> Message-ID: Just installed one. A little noisy (like a small refrigerator running) but installed on a 15A/240V breaker. Sonoma County, coastal, but it's working fine so far. Challenge was enough airspace, definitely puts out cold, conditioned air. Mike On Tue, May 26, 2015 at 3:43 PM, Phil Forest wrote: > Wrenches, > My take so far on this great discussion about heat pump hot water heaters > (HPHW's) for domestic hot water: > A HPHW powered by off-grid PV could be very effective, if there was a > timer which controlled it to only operate during daylight, so it doesn't > load the batteries at night. And the HPHW cools and dries the > appropriately large space where installed, which food, beer and batteries > are stored. > > Phil Forest > South Mountain Company > > > On May 26, 2015, at 5:35 PM, Tom Lane wrote: > > > > The water heater heat pump tanks , I am referring to are ONLY FOR > HEATING DOMESTIC HOT WATER for washing clothes , showers , baths , and dish > washing . On April 15 the Feds mandated all new standards for water heaters > , ALL ELECTRIC AND GAS HOT WATER HEATERS ARE NOW ABOUT TWO INCHES IN > DIAMETER AND SIX INCHES TALLER that were MANUFACTURED AFTER THAT DATE . All > 66 , 80 and 120 gallon electric water heaters were OUTLAWED except for > Solar Hot Water Tanks and 80 gallon water heater heat pumps are allowed . > The normal size 30 , 40 , and 55 gallon electric and gas water heaters are > now wider and taller ! Water heater heat pump tanks are usually 55 or 50 > gallons or 80 gallons and have a heat pump only , hybrid ( heat pump and > electric ) , electric only and off modes - for vacation . The idiot Feds > think they should be used all over the USA , however , my research , sez to > only use them in hot humid climates in garages ( which they will cool and > dehumidify ) in climates in the > h > > ot humid south and East Texas . Do your own research , or look at the > research done at the Florida Solar Energy Center . GatorTom PS : rumor has > it that the Feds may rescind the order from their hot water Czar on 80 and > 120 gallon electric water heaters ! Or maybe they will send SWAT teams > into plumbing supply houses to check on that and also their outlawing brass > fittings with tiny amounts of lead . > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael & Jessica Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. Office: 707-884-1862 Cell: 707-684-0064 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Tue May 26 19:57:06 2015 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 17:57:06 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Photocom inverter Message-ID: Does anyone have any contact info for a former Photocom rep? I've got a client with one that's acting up. Regards, Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue May 26 22:05:58 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay peltz) Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 19:05:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries for Polaris Message-ID: Hi All, I've got a call about lithium batteries for the battery powered polaris EV ranger. I've looked but can't find any. Anybody know of a supplier for this? Sorry in advance if this is supposed to go to marketing. jay peltz power -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Tue May 26 23:21:46 2015 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 21:21:46 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hot water heater heat pumps In-Reply-To: <0AACA782-06AD-4F2F-B5F8-51F9F08E4B48@ecs-solar.com> References: <0AACA782-06AD-4F2F-B5F8-51F9F08E4B48@ecs-solar.com> Message-ID: If you are doing a replacement or new, anything 55 gallons and below is just extra insulation and slightly more efficient heating (and slightly larger size). Above 55 gallons, the mandate is basically new technology. I work only off the grid, and heat pump electric uses as much energy as a full size refrigerator, not an option (unless maybe with a timer as suggested in this thread, and a large PV system). The gas side of the mandate is condensing heaters that recover waste flue heat; we already have those on the on-demand side. Hopefully the SWAT teams can do double duty and seize toilets that use too many gallons per flush also. Dan Fink Buckville Energy IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Tue, May 26, 2015 at 3:35 PM, Tom Lane wrote: > The water heater heat pump tanks , I am referring to are ONLY FOR HEATING > DOMESTIC HOT WATER for washing clothes , showers , baths , and dish washing > . On April 15 the Feds mandated all new standards for water heaters , ALL > ELECTRIC AND GAS HOT WATER HEATERS ARE NOW ABOUT TWO INCHES IN DIAMETER AND > SIX INCHES TALLER that were MANUFACTURED AFTER THAT DATE . All 66 , 80 and > 120 gallon electric water heaters were OUTLAWED except for Solar Hot Water > Tanks and 80 gallon water heater heat pumps are allowed . The normal size > 30 , 40 , and 55 gallon electric and gas water heaters are now wider and > taller ! Water heater heat pump tanks are usually 55 or 50 gallons or 80 > gallons and have a heat pump only , hybrid ( heat pump and electric ) , > electric only and off modes - for vacation . The idiot Feds think they > should be used all over the USA , however , my research , sez to only use > them in hot humid climates in garages ( which they will cool and dehumidify > ) in climates in the h > ot humid south and East Texas . Do your own research , or look at the > research done at the Florida Solar Energy Center . GatorTom PS : rumor has > it that the Feds may rescind the order from their hot water Czar on 80 and > 120 gallon electric water heaters ! Or maybe they will send SWAT teams > into plumbing supply houses to check on that and also their outlawing brass > fittings with tiny amounts of lead . > > > Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From howie at suncatchervt.com Tue May 26 23:30:56 2015 From: howie at suncatchervt.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 23:30:56 -0400 (Eas) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Design Class Recommendations Message-ID: <26514.66.220.236.87.1432697456.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com> Hi, We are hiring a new person to begin to take on generating our residential installation packets for the field crews. We looked for someone with experience, but have had to go with someone with lots of PV field project management experience, reasonably good computer program skills, but not a great deal of understanding of Code and equipment choices. We are looking for some course work that will help shorten the learning curve and teaching burden. I found several potential classes, but any recommendations for either online courses or intensive live classes would be very appreciated. Cost is less of a concern than finding something that is effective and efficient. Thanks, Howie -- Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ Catamount Solar, LLC Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric & Hot Water Incentive Partner http://www.CatamountSolar.com 802-272-0004 From sunengser at gmail.com Wed May 27 00:06:03 2015 From: sunengser at gmail.com (Bill Hoffer) Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 21:06:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Design Class Recommendations In-Reply-To: <26514.66.220.236.87.1432697456.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com> References: <26514.66.220.236.87.1432697456.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com> Message-ID: Howie I am biased to SEI. Full disclosure I do teach for them. Great instructors and a solid curriculum. Options for online, in person and hands on. Great thing about SEI is most instructors are part time teachers working full time in the industry, so students get a good industry perspective. Reference material alone is worth taking the online...I use it in my work on a regular basis. Great Alumni network too! SEI rocks! Bill On May 26, 2015 8:25 PM, "Howie Michaelson" wrote: > Hi, > > We are hiring a new person to begin to take on generating our residential > installation packets for the field crews. We looked for someone with > experience, but have had to go with someone with lots of PV field project > management experience, reasonably good computer program skills, but not a > great deal of understanding of Code and equipment choices. We are looking > for some course work that will help shorten the learning curve and > teaching burden. I found several potential classes, but any > recommendations for either online courses or intensive live classes would > be very appreciated. Cost is less of a concern than finding something that > is effective and efficient. > > Thanks, > Howie > -- > Howie Michaelson > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional(tm) > > Catamount Solar, LLC > Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service > VT Solar Electric & Hot Water Incentive Partner > http://www.CatamountSolar.com > 802-272-0004 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Wed May 27 01:24:57 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 23:24:57 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Photocom inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55655529.8020306@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reellison at gmail.com Wed May 27 10:29:50 2015 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 10:29:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hot water heater heat pumps In-Reply-To: References: <0AACA782-06AD-4F2F-B5F8-51F9F08E4B48@ecs-solar.com> Message-ID: <5E96E841-A279-446E-8DB0-1CA0E212A80E@gmail.com> They will have to pry my toilet from my cold dead rear end Bob Ellison > On May 26, 2015, at 11:21 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > > If you are doing a replacement or new, anything 55 gallons and below is just extra insulation and slightly more efficient heating (and slightly larger size). Above 55 gallons, the mandate is basically new technology. I work only off the grid, and heat pump electric uses as much energy as a full size refrigerator, not an option (unless maybe with a timer as suggested in this thread, and a large PV system). The gas side of the mandate is condensing heaters that recover waste flue heat; we already have those on the on-demand side. Hopefully the SWAT teams can do double duty and seize toilets that use too many gallons per flush also. > > Dan Fink > Buckville Energy > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > >> On Tue, May 26, 2015 at 3:35 PM, Tom Lane wrote: >> The water heater heat pump tanks , I am referring to are ONLY FOR HEATING DOMESTIC HOT WATER for washing clothes , showers , baths , and dish washing . On April 15 the Feds mandated all new standards for water heaters , ALL ELECTRIC AND GAS HOT WATER HEATERS ARE NOW ABOUT TWO INCHES IN DIAMETER AND SIX INCHES TALLER that were MANUFACTURED AFTER THAT DATE . All 66 , 80 and 120 gallon electric water heaters were OUTLAWED except for Solar Hot Water Tanks and 80 gallon water heater heat pumps are allowed . The normal size 30 , 40 , and 55 gallon electric and gas water heaters are now wider and taller ! Water heater heat pump tanks are usually 55 or 50 gallons or 80 gallons and have a heat pump only , hybrid ( heat pump and electric ) , electric only and off modes - for vacation . The idiot Feds think they should be used all over the USA , however , my research , sez to only use them in hot humid climates in garages ( which they will cool and dehumidify ) in climates in the h >> ot humid south and East Texas . Do your own research , or look at the research done at the Florida Solar Energy Center . GatorTom PS : rumor has it that the Feds may rescind the order from their hot water Czar on 80 and 120 gallon electric water heaters ! Or maybe they will send SWAT teams into plumbing supply houses to check on that and also their outlawing brass fittings with tiny amounts of lead . >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Randy at BrooksSolar.com Wed May 27 15:10:59 2015 From: Randy at BrooksSolar.com (Randy Brooks) Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 12:10:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries for Polaris Ranger EV Message-ID: Jay, I saw your post on RE-Wrenches, asking about a source for lithium batteries for the Polaris Ranger EV utility vehicle. I’m friends with a Polaris Ranger EV owner who recently converted his to lithium. His contact info is: Jack Anderson jmasea at prodigy.net 509-784-1747 Jack can provide you details. I helped range test the lithium version. Very nice. take care, Randy Brooks Brooks Solar, Inc. Chelan, WA 509-682-9646 Randy at BrooksSolar.com From: jay peltz > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries for Polaris Date: May 26, 2015 at 7:05:58 PM PDT To: RE-wrenches > Reply-To: RE-wrenches > Hi All, I've got a call about lithium batteries for the battery powered polaris EV ranger. I've looked but can't find any. Anybody know of a supplier for this? Sorry in advance if this is supposed to go to marketing. jay peltz power -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Wed May 27 19:45:01 2015 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 16:45:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries for Polaris Ranger EV References: Message-ID: <1F928229AD3D4F9C908B57962794B97A@D8XG8YH1> Jay, I hate to throw cold water on the Li-ion alternative for an ATV, but I did exactly that when my Li-ion pack caught on fire in my E-Force ATV that was converted to Li-ion. I'm now back to sealed LA. The cells and BOS were about 4 years old so maybe all that is getting more dialed in by now...I know not all Li-ion batteries are the same. I Hope it works out for you. The range was a bit better. Bill Feather River Solar Electric ----- Original Message ----- From: Randy Brooks To: RE Wrenches ; jay.peltz at gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2015 12:10 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries for Polaris Ranger EV Jay, I saw your post on RE-Wrenches, asking about a source for lithium batteries for the Polaris Ranger EV utility vehicle. I’m friends with a Polaris Ranger EV owner who recently converted his to lithium. His contact info is: Jack Anderson jmasea at prodigy.net 509-784-1747 Jack can provide you details. I helped range test the lithium version. Very nice. take care, Randy Brooks Brooks Solar, Inc. Chelan, WA 509-682-9646 Randy at BrooksSolar.com From: jay peltz Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries for Polaris Date: May 26, 2015 at 7:05:58 PM PDT To: RE-wrenches Reply-To: RE-wrenches Hi All, I've got a call about lithium batteries for the battery powered polaris EV ranger. I've looked but can't find any. Anybody know of a supplier for this? Sorry in advance if this is supposed to go to marketing. jay peltz power ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solareagle at solareagle.com Thu May 28 22:21:39 2015 From: solareagle at solareagle.com (RM You) Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 19:21:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] iron & aluminum Message-ID: <00D47901-C2D7-4BE7-A3FD-9117A6D826C2@solareagle.com> Hi Wrenches, I have had a couple of customers want to fabricate their own PV pole mounts and racks out of iron. Aside from the galvanic corrosion and weight issues is there anything else I should caution these guys about? Any stories about failures etc? My druthers are to stay with the engineered aluminum pole mounts but when you’re dealing with someone with fabrication experience and the cost for pre-fab is high then the obvious outcome occurs. If the unit is properly treated/painted I imagine it could last many years. Is there a way to attach an anode to such a rack or would simple non conductive insulation between panels and rack be the best answer? Ron Young From windsine at gmail.com Thu May 28 22:45:43 2015 From: windsine at gmail.com (Roy Rakobitsch) Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 21:45:43 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] iron & aluminum In-Reply-To: <00D47901-C2D7-4BE7-A3FD-9117A6D826C2@solareagle.com> References: <00D47901-C2D7-4BE7-A3FD-9117A6D826C2@solareagle.com> Message-ID: Ive fabricated many steel racks and pole mounts. Some fabbed in my shop and others simply welded together on site. If they know what they are getting into and are aware of the risks involved, id say go for it. Show them pictures of good designs and maybe they can try to duplicate something similar. As far as galvanic reactions, i have used thick nylon washers under aluminum L-feet and rail to mount to steel beams and tube. I use a stainless bolt to bolt it down to the steel as to have the stainless in contact with the aluminum and steel via the nylon washer so those two metals are never in contact. Use a nylon washer (or similar) small enough diameter to be hidden under the L-foot so UV (sun light) will never contact it. There are probably other good solutions as well. Roy Rakobitsch NABCEP Certified Small Wind Installer® NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® Certified Advanced Tower Climbing, Safety & Rescue Wind/PV Design Engineer Windsine LLC 631-514-4166 www.windsine.org On May 28, 2015 9:21 PM, "RM You" wrote: > Hi Wrenches, I have had a couple of customers want to fabricate their own > PV pole mounts and racks out of iron. Aside from the galvanic corrosion and > weight issues is there anything else I should caution these guys about? Any > stories about failures etc? My druthers are to stay with the engineered > aluminum pole mounts but when you’re dealing with someone with fabrication > experience and the cost for pre-fab is high then the obvious outcome > occurs. If the unit is properly treated/painted I imagine it could last > many years. Is there a way to attach an anode to such a rack or would > simple non conductive insulation between panels and rack be the best answer? > > Ron Young > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri May 29 15:05:20 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 13:05:20 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] iron & aluminum In-Reply-To: <00D47901-C2D7-4BE7-A3FD-9117A6D826C2@solareagle.com> References: <00D47901-C2D7-4BE7-A3FD-9117A6D826C2@solareagle.com> Message-ID: <5568B870.5070003@solarray.com> I've seen a couple of homemade pole mounts that were really good, but most are not properly designed. Fabrication experience is good, but the problems I've seen were design issues, not bad welding. (this goes for commercial racks too) Ground mounts are less prone to errors, but pole mounts are actually relatively complicated designs. One gusset missing, and the whole thing could twist off the pole in a storm. On the steel vs aluminum issue, it depends on the how wet it is. In dry climates I've seen painted steel last for decades. In Hawaii, I've seen painted steel completely gone in 5 years. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 5/28/2015 8:21 PM, RM You wrote: > Hi Wrenches, I have had a couple of customers want to fabricate their own PV pole mounts and racks out of iron. Aside from the galvanic corrosion and weight issues is there anything else I should caution these guys about? Any stories about failures etc? My druthers are to stay with the engineered aluminum pole mounts but when you’re dealing with someone with fabrication experience and the cost for pre-fab is high then the obvious outcome occurs. If the unit is properly treated/painted I imagine it could last many years. Is there a way to attach an anode to such a rack or would simple non conductive insulation between panels and rack be the best answer? > > Ron Young > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri May 29 15:53:02 2015 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 15:53:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] iron & aluminum In-Reply-To: <00D47901-C2D7-4BE7-A3FD-9117A6D826C2@solareagle.com> References: <00D47901-C2D7-4BE7-A3FD-9117A6D826C2@solareagle.com> Message-ID: <20150529195342.9951010C28@che.dreamhost.com> Stainless steel bolts and nuts as well as Ss flat washers where the dissimilar metals meet to keep them separated works OK. Sincerely, Glenn Burt Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. -----Original Message----- From: "RM You" Sent: ‎5/‎28/‎2015 22:21 To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: [RE-wrenches] iron & aluminum Hi Wrenches, I have had a couple of customers want to fabricate their own PV pole mounts and racks out of iron. Aside from the galvanic corrosion and weight issues is there anything else I should caution these guys about? Any stories about failures etc? My druthers are to stay with the engineered aluminum pole mounts but when you’re dealing with someone with fabrication experience and the cost for pre-fab is high then the obvious outcome occurs. If the unit is properly treated/painted I imagine it could last many years. Is there a way to attach an anode to such a rack or would simple non conductive insulation between panels and rack be the best answer? Ron Young _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Fri May 29 16:23:54 2015 From: Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com (Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com) Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 16:23:54 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] iron & aluminum In-Reply-To: <00D47901-C2D7-4BE7-A3FD-9117A6D826C2@solareagle.com> References: <00D47901-C2D7-4BE7-A3FD-9117A6D826C2@solareagle.com> Message-ID: Hi: One thing which has come up a lot since the solar industry really took off in the last 10 years is that of corrosion and degradation of exposed metal on racks and modules. Corrosion due to dissimilar metals, aka galvanic corrosion, is due to the natural characteristics of the metals. To get a relative sense of the magnitude of the problem, all the metals can be stacked up in table where at one end are the metals which don't corrode and the other, the ones which do. With this layout, the farther apart they are in table, the faster the corrodible metal will corrode. (This shows that zinc is a good sacrificial metal for every other metal except Magnesium). There is another effect which is at least as, or in some cases even more significant. That is the dissimilar coefficients of thermal expansion. The table below lists a bunch of common metals. The units for the numbers are, micro-meters per meter per degree Celsius. Most Expansive Zinc 30 Cadmium 30 Lead 28 Magnesium 25 Tin 23 Aluminium 22 Silver 20 Brass 19 Copper 16 Stainless Steel 16 Gold 14 Steel/Iron 11 Titanium 8 Graphite 8 Least Expansive As in the previous table, the farther apart the metals are the worse is the situation as the metals are cycled through mid winter lows to high noon summer temperatures. You can also see that steel/iron has an issue with almost every other metal. One way to deal with the galvanic corrosion is by having a zinc coating or perhaps zinc anodes up in the framework in such a place so that the zinc residue will run down the posts as the zinc oxidizes. With the thermal expansion, the use of rubber/plastic/nylon bushings will allow for thermal cycling without allowing metal fatigue and/or damage. In the case of iron, the galvanic potential between itself and aluminium is virtually non-existent. It's the thermal expansion which messes things up. Using bushings gives flexibility at the joint to allow for non-detrimental thermal expansion cycling. One other related thing to note is the the thermal coefficient of expansion for masonry is in the range of 3-4. That's a lot different than aluminium, so the "rubbery" joints help a lot in this case. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: RM You To: RE-wrenches , Date: 05/28/2015 07:21 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] iron & aluminum Sent by: "RE-wrenches" Hi Wrenches, I have had a couple of customers want to fabricate their own PV pole mounts and racks out of iron. Aside from the galvanic corrosion and weight issues is there anything else I should caution these guys about? Any stories about failures etc? My druthers are to stay with the engineered aluminum pole mounts but when you’re dealing with someone with fabrication experience and the cost for pre-fab is high then the obvious outcome occurs. If the unit is properly treated/painted I imagine it could last many years. Is there a way to attach an anode to such a rack or would simple non conductive insulation between panels and rack be the best answer? Ron Young _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dana at solarwork.com Fri May 29 15:59:24 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 13:59:24 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] iron & aluminum In-Reply-To: <20150529195342.9951010C28@che.dreamhost.com> References: <00D47901-C2D7-4BE7-A3FD-9117A6D826C2@solareagle.com> <20150529195342.9951010C28@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <007a01d09a49$f69def20$e3d9cd60$@com> I visited a PV array owner built out of pressure treated wood and AL angle. The wood had warped and twisted and several modules were cracked as a result of the tension on the panels. As I tried to move the thought process to all metal (either AL or iron) I met total resistance. I wished him a great day and got in my truck & drove off. It takes all types in this world. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt Sent: Friday, May 29, 2015 1:53 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] iron & aluminum Stainless steel bolts and nuts as well as Ss flat washers where the dissimilar metals meet to keep them separated works OK. Sincerely, Glenn Burt Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. _____ From: RM You Sent: ‎5/‎28/‎2015 22:21 To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] iron & aluminum Hi Wrenches, I have had a couple of customers want to fabricate their own PV pole mounts and racks out of iron. Aside from the galvanic corrosion and weight issues is there anything else I should caution these guys about? Any stories about failures etc? My druthers are to stay with the engineered aluminum pole mounts but when you’re dealing with someone with fabrication experience and the cost for pre-fab is high then the obvious outcome occurs. If the unit is properly treated/painted I imagine it could last many years. Is there a way to attach an anode to such a rack or would simple non conductive insulation between panels and rack be the best answer? Ron Young _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri May 29 17:30:14 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 15:30:14 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] iron & aluminum In-Reply-To: <007a01d09a49$f69def20$e3d9cd60$@com> References: <00D47901-C2D7-4BE7-A3FD-9117A6D826C2@solareagle.com> <20150529195342.9951010C28@che.dreamhost.com> <007a01d09a49$f69def20$e3d9cd60$@com> Message-ID: <5568DA66.8010404@solarray.com> Around here, wood dry rots around the screws, so after about 5 years, timber built frames are blowing apart. While it might be possible to do a decent timber base frame using pressure treated wood and carriage bolts for the attachments, you could not use wood for the final cross rails as you noted. Actually any of us that do roof mounts are technically using a timber base frame, but certainly not for the rails! R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 5/29/2015 1:59 PM, Dana wrote: > > I visited a PV array owner built out of pressure treated wood and AL > angle. The wood had warped and twisted and several modules were > cracked as a result of the tension on the panels. > > As I tried to move the thought process to all metal (either AL or > iron) I met total resistance. I wished him a great day and got in my > truck & drove off. > > It takes all types in this world. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel > > Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 > > E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com > > O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 > > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On Behalf Of *Glenn Burt > *Sent:* Friday, May 29, 2015 1:53 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] iron & aluminum > > Stainless steel bolts and nuts as well as Ss flat washers where the > dissimilar metals meet to keep them separated works OK. > > Sincerely, > Glenn Burt > Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From: *RM You > *Sent: *‎5/‎28/‎2015 22:21 > *To: *RE-wrenches > *Subject: *[RE-wrenches] iron & aluminum > > Hi Wrenches, I have had a couple of customers want to fabricate their > own PV pole mounts and racks out of iron. Aside from the galvanic > corrosion and weight issues is there anything else I should caution > these guys about? Any stories about failures etc? My druthers are to > stay with the engineered aluminum pole mounts but when you’re dealing > with someone with fabrication experience and the cost for pre-fab is > high then the obvious outcome occurs. If the unit is properly > treated/painted I imagine it could last many years. Is there a way to > attach an anode to such a rack or would simple non conductive > insulation between panels and rack be the best answer? > > Ron Young > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tom at ecs-solar.com Fri May 29 18:19:12 2015 From: tom at ecs-solar.com (Tom Lane) Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 18:19:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Iron and aluminum Message-ID: <947954FD-6594-4ACC-B5D7-0054404C8E56@ecs-solar.com> If you use iron rails with aluminum framed modules a ALL THE FASTENERS BETTER BE MARINE GRADE STAINLESS STEEL and be careful of galling . GatorTom Sent from my iPad From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Sun May 31 13:55:46 2015 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 11:55:46 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Voltage Degradation with Uni-Solar laminate Message-ID: Hello Off-Grid Wrenches, I recently made a periodic maintenance visit to a residential off-grid system I take care of here in Southern CO, and discovered an interesting problem. This system has an array of 48x Uni-Solar PVL-68 laminate modules applied directly to standing-seam metal roofing. The data logging on the controller (Outback MX-60) indicated that the system was having trouble completing a charge cycle and going to float. Initially I assumed was due to heavy electrical use by the occupants (renters). After a little checking, I noticed that the module string voltage was only about 0.5V above the battery voltage! This was a cool late morning, with full sun, and the array was charging almost 2kW at 54.5V. The module strings were running at 55V. I've noticed the module voltage being lower than I'd like before, but it has never been this low. I suspect this is the real reason the system hasn't been able to complete a charge cycle. By removing the loads I was able to get an open-circuit voltage of 71V, but that still seems pretty low. Has anyone else experienced a voltage degradation issue with the Uni-Solar laminate? What was the expected annual voltage degradation for this technology? These modules do have some age on them. The system was installed about 15 years ago (by a competent installer who is now retired). The system was installed before MPPT controllers were common, so I assume the modules are wired in strings of 4 for 48V nominal. Any experiences or opinions are appreciated. Thanks in advance. -Luke Luke Christy NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 CoSEIA Certified PV Installer Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO. 81144 SGSRenewables at Gmail.com 719.588.3044 www.sgsrenewables.com From ray at solarray.com Sun May 31 14:31:01 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 12:31:01 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Voltage Degradation with Uni-Solar laminate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <556B5365.7030703@solarray.com> Yes, amorphous modules degrade faster then crystalline cells. 15 years will really start catching up with you, that's why we always tried to stick to monocrystalline when we could. I think your best option for now is to rewire the array for much higher voltage. Even your current voltage problem aside, the system will run more efficiently at higher voltage: Less current = less voltage drop. I would probably just jump the 4 module sets in series in the combiner box to 8 in series. Should be a quick fix, and really show an improvement. I've seen this same issue with low voltage polys and undersized wiring. Usually the MPP controllers like some room to play with; as soon as the MPP voltage gets close to or less than battery voltage, the current drops off substantially. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 5/31/2015 11:55 AM, Luke Christy wrote: > Hello Off-Grid Wrenches, > > I recently made a periodic maintenance visit to a residential off-grid system I take care of here in Southern CO, and discovered an interesting problem. > > This system has an array of 48x Uni-Solar PVL-68 laminate modules applied directly to standing-seam metal roofing. > > The data logging on the controller (Outback MX-60) indicated that the system was having trouble completing a charge cycle and going to float. Initially I assumed was due to heavy electrical use by the occupants (renters). After a little checking, I noticed that the module string voltage was only about 0.5V above the battery voltage! > This was a cool late morning, with full sun, and the array was charging almost 2kW at 54.5V. The module strings were running at 55V. I've noticed the module voltage being lower than I'd like before, but it has never been this low. I suspect this is the real reason the system hasn't been able to complete a charge cycle. > > By removing the loads I was able to get an open-circuit voltage of 71V, but that still seems pretty low. > > Has anyone else experienced a voltage degradation issue with the Uni-Solar laminate? What was the expected annual voltage degradation for this technology? > > These modules do have some age on them. The system was installed about 15 years ago (by a competent installer who is now retired). The system was installed before MPPT controllers were common, so I assume the modules are wired in strings of 4 for 48V nominal. > > Any experiences or opinions are appreciated. > Thanks in advance. > > -Luke > > > Luke Christy > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professionalâ„¢: Certification #031409-25 > NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installerâ„¢: Certification #ST032611-03 > CoSEIA Certified PV Installer > > Solar Gain Services, LLC > PO Box 531 > Monte Vista, CO. 81144 > SGSRenewables at Gmail.com > 719.588.3044 > www.sgsrenewables.com > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: hddbigbh.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6310 bytes Desc: not available URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Sun May 31 15:48:45 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 13:48:45 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Voltage Degradation with Uni-Solar laminate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <59854A2A-1B1A-4004-9801-CFE1C718CADA@sindelarsolar.com> Luke, I have never worked with Uni-Solar laminates, although I expect to for the first time this summer, at 12,800' in the White-Inyo mountains, but that's another story. I installed one small cabin system with US64s in 1999 (the rancher wanted modules that would keep performing with a few vandals' bullet holes, which never happened) and they continue to perform as new. So take my two comments with that disclaimer in mind. First, you measured only 63% of rated output. That's pretty low at the controller, even if the roof is hot. Could there be something else to search for as a cause? Assuming it's indeed simply weak voltage, consider a Midnite Classic 200 or 250, to give the voltage window to allow repairing to a higher nominal input, maybe 72 or 96 volts, so that the charge voltage will always be higher than battery voltage. Allan > On May 31, 2015, at 11:55 AM, Luke Christy wrote: > > Hello Off-Grid Wrenches, > > I recently made a periodic maintenance visit to a residential off-grid system I take care of here in Southern CO, and discovered an interesting problem. > > This system has an array of 48x Uni-Solar PVL-68 laminate modules applied directly to standing-seam metal roofing. > > The data logging on the controller (Outback MX-60) indicated that the system was having trouble completing a charge cycle and going to float. Initially I assumed was due to heavy electrical use by the occupants (renters). After a little checking, I noticed that the module string voltage was only about 0.5V above the battery voltage! > This was a cool late morning, with full sun, and the array was charging almost 2kW at 54.5V. The module strings were running at 55V. I've noticed the module voltage being lower than I'd like before, but it has never been this low. I suspect this is the real reason the system hasn't been able to complete a charge cycle. > > By removing the loads I was able to get an open-circuit voltage of 71V, but that still seems pretty low. > > Has anyone else experienced a voltage degradation issue with the Uni-Solar laminate? What was the expected annual voltage degradation for this technology? > > These modules do have some age on them. The system was installed about 15 years ago (by a competent installer who is now retired). The system was installed before MPPT controllers were common, so I assume the modules are wired in strings of 4 for 48V nominal. > > Any experiences or opinions are appreciated. > Thanks in advance. > > -Luke > > > Luke Christy > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 > NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 > CoSEIA Certified PV Installer > > Solar Gain Services, LLC > PO Box 531 > Monte Vista, CO. 81144 > SGSRenewables at Gmail.com > 719.588.3044 > www.sgsrenewables.com > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From windsine at gmail.com Sun May 31 15:53:32 2015 From: windsine at gmail.com (Roy Rakobitsch) Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 14:53:32 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Voltage Degradation with Uni-Solar laminate In-Reply-To: <59854A2A-1B1A-4004-9801-CFE1C718CADA@sindelarsolar.com> References: <59854A2A-1B1A-4004-9801-CFE1C718CADA@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Ive installed a few systems with these laminates years ago, but havent kept up with performance much unfortunately. I have heard of the diodes going bad (which are glued into the laminate along the sides). Maybe thats your issue? Just speculating... Roy Rakobitsch NABCEP Certified Small Wind Installer® NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® Certified Advanced Tower Climbing, Safety & Rescue Wind/PV Design Engineer Windsine LLC 631-514-4166 www.windsine.org On May 31, 2015 2:49 PM, "Allan Sindelar" wrote: > Luke, > I have never worked with Uni-Solar laminates, although I expect to for the > first time this summer, at 12,800' in the White-Inyo mountains, but that's > another story. I installed one small cabin system with US64s in 1999 (the > rancher wanted modules that would keep performing with a few vandals' > bullet holes, which never happened) and they continue to perform as new. > > So take my two comments with that disclaimer in mind. First, you measured > only 63% of rated output. That's pretty low at the controller, even if the > roof is hot. Could there be something else to search for as a cause? > > Assuming it's indeed simply weak voltage, consider a Midnite Classic 200 > or 250, to give the voltage window to allow repairing to a higher nominal > input, maybe 72 or 96 volts, so that the charge voltage will always be > higher than battery voltage. > > Allan > > > On May 31, 2015, at 11:55 AM, Luke Christy > wrote: > > > > Hello Off-Grid Wrenches, > > > > I recently made a periodic maintenance visit to a residential off-grid > system I take care of here in Southern CO, and discovered an interesting > problem. > > > > This system has an array of 48x Uni-Solar PVL-68 laminate modules > applied directly to standing-seam metal roofing. > > > > The data logging on the controller (Outback MX-60) indicated that the > system was having trouble completing a charge cycle and going to float. > Initially I assumed was due to heavy electrical use by the occupants > (renters). After a little checking, I noticed that the module string > voltage was only about 0.5V above the battery voltage! > > This was a cool late morning, with full sun, and the array was charging > almost 2kW at 54.5V. The module strings were running at 55V. I've noticed > the module voltage being lower than I'd like before, but it has never been > this low. I suspect this is the real reason the system hasn't been able to > complete a charge cycle. > > > > By removing the loads I was able to get an open-circuit voltage of 71V, > but that still seems pretty low. > > > > Has anyone else experienced a voltage degradation issue with the > Uni-Solar laminate? What was the expected annual voltage degradation for > this technology? > > > > These modules do have some age on them. The system was installed about > 15 years ago (by a competent installer who is now retired). The system was > installed before MPPT controllers were common, so I assume the modules are > wired in strings of 4 for 48V nominal. > > > > Any experiences or opinions are appreciated. > > Thanks in advance. > > > > -Luke > > > > > > Luke Christy > > > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 > > NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 > > CoSEIA Certified PV Installer > > > > Solar Gain Services, LLC > > PO Box 531 > > Monte Vista, CO. 81144 > > SGSRenewables at Gmail.com > > 719.588.3044 > > www.sgsrenewables.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Sun May 31 14:42:13 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 12:42:13 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Voltage Degradation with Uni-Solar laminate In-Reply-To: <556B5365.7030703@solarray.com> References: <556B5365.7030703@solarray.com> Message-ID: <001e01d09bd1$8369bf00$8a3d3d00$@com> I have a new client in ID that has the same product. The 48 volt system has a relay style era charge controller that we will upgrade this summer. He has no issues achieving equalization voltages PV direct without the generator. For a product that had a lot of press in the early days this is only the 2nd Unisolar system I have seen since Jan of '88. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2015 12:31 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Voltage Degradation with Uni-Solar laminate Yes, amorphous modules degrade faster then crystalline cells. 15 years will really start catching up with you, that's why we always tried to stick to monocrystalline when we could. I think your best option for now is to rewire the array for much higher voltage. Even your current voltage problem aside, the system will run more efficiently at higher voltage: Less current = less voltage drop. I would probably just jump the 4 module sets in series in the combiner box to 8 in series. Should be a quick fix, and really show an improvement. I've seen this same issue with low voltage polys and undersized wiring. Usually the MPP controllers like some room to play with; as soon as the MPP voltage gets close to or less than battery voltage, the current drops off substantially. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 5/31/2015 11:55 AM, Luke Christy wrote: Hello Off-Grid Wrenches, I recently made a periodic maintenance visit to a residential off-grid system I take care of here in Southern CO, and discovered an interesting problem. This system has an array of 48x Uni-Solar PVL-68 laminate modules applied directly to standing-seam metal roofing. The data logging on the controller (Outback MX-60) indicated that the system was having trouble completing a charge cycle and going to float. Initially I assumed was due to heavy electrical use by the occupants (renters). After a little checking, I noticed that the module string voltage was only about 0.5V above the battery voltage! This was a cool late morning, with full sun, and the array was charging almost 2kW at 54.5V. The module strings were running at 55V. I've noticed the module voltage being lower than I'd like before, but it has never been this low. I suspect this is the real reason the system hasn't been able to complete a charge cycle. By removing the loads I was able to get an open-circuit voltage of 71V, but that still seems pretty low. Has anyone else experienced a voltage degradation issue with the Uni-Solar laminate? What was the expected annual voltage degradation for this technology? These modules do have some age on them. The system was installed about 15 years ago (by a competent installer who is now retired). The system was installed before MPPT controllers were common, so I assume the modules are wired in strings of 4 for 48V nominal. Any experiences or opinions are appreciated. Thanks in advance. -Luke Luke Christy NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalT: Certification #031409-25 NABCEP Certified Solar Heating InstallerT: Certification #ST032611-03 CoSEIA Certified PV Installer Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO. 81144 SGSRenewables at Gmail.com 719.588.3044 www.sgsrenewables.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6310 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun May 31 16:23:35 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay peltz) Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 13:23:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Voltage Degradation with Uni-Solar laminate In-Reply-To: <556B5365.7030703@solarray.com> References: <556B5365.7030703@solarray.com> Message-ID: HI Luke, To add here. I'm unclear if you have measured each string or the whole array at 71v. I would check each string for voc/isc. And then if they are consistent, I agree that putting 2 strings in series with a new controller might help out. You can try it with the MX-60 as you are at only 142v. If it works better then a new higher voltage CC would be required for winter higher voc. Let us know what you find out. jay On 5/31/2015 11:55 AM, Luke Christy wrote: > Hello Off-Grid Wrenches, > > I recently made a periodic maintenance visit to a residential off-grid system I take care of here in Southern CO, and discovered an interesting problem. > > This system has an array of 48x Uni-Solar PVL-68 laminate modules applied directly to standing-seam metal roofing. > > The data logging on the controller (Outback MX-60) indicated that the system was having trouble completing a charge cycle and going to float. Initially I assumed was due to heavy electrical use by the occupants (renters). After a little checking, I noticed that the module string voltage was only about 0.5V above the battery voltage! > This was a cool late morning, with full sun, and the array was charging almost 2kW at 54.5V. The module strings were running at 55V. I've noticed the module voltage being lower than I'd like before, but it has never been this low. I suspect this is the real reason the system hasn't been able to complete a charge cycle. > > By removing the loads I was able to get an open-circuit voltage of 71V, but that still seems pretty low. > > Has anyone else experienced a voltage degradation issue with the Uni-Solar laminate? What was the expected annual voltage degradation for this technology? > > These modules do have some age on them. The system was installed about 15 years ago (by a competent installer who is now retired). The system was installed before MPPT controllers were common, so I assume the modules are wired in strings of 4 for 48V nominal. > > Any experiences or opinions are appreciated. > Thanks in advance. > > -Luke > > > Luke Christy > > > > Jay Peltz Peltz Power jay.peltz at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Randy at BrooksSolar.com Sun May 31 19:03:07 2015 From: Randy at BrooksSolar.com (Randy Brooks) Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 16:03:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Voltage Degradation with Uni-Solar laminate In-Reply-To: References: <556B5365.7030703@solarray.com> Message-ID: <99D7D8C2-2098-4EF7-B067-3FAD963143AC@BrooksSolar.com> I second Jay. If one string is significantly lower, I’d check each module in the string. Could be a bad module. Randy > On May 31, 2015, at 1:23 PM, jay peltz wrote: > > HI Luke, > > To add here. I'm unclear if you have measured each string or the whole array at 71v. > I would check each string for voc/isc. > > And then if they are consistent, I agree that putting 2 strings in series with a new controller might help out. > You can try it with the MX-60 as you are at only 142v. If it works better then a new higher voltage CC would be required for winter higher voc. > > Let us know what you find out. > > jay > > > On 5/31/2015 11:55 AM, Luke Christy wrote: >> Hello Off-Grid Wrenches, >> >> I recently made a periodic maintenance visit to a residential off-grid system I take care of here in Southern CO, and discovered an interesting problem. >> >> This system has an array of 48x Uni-Solar PVL-68 laminate modules applied directly to standing-seam metal roofing. >> >> The data logging on the controller (Outback MX-60) indicated that the system was having trouble completing a charge cycle and going to float. Initially I assumed was due to heavy electrical use by the occupants (renters). After a little checking, I noticed that the module string voltage was only about 0.5V above the battery voltage! >> This was a cool late morning, with full sun, and the array was charging almost 2kW at 54.5V. The module strings were running at 55V. I've noticed the module voltage being lower than I'd like before, but it has never been this low. I suspect this is the real reason the system hasn't been able to complete a charge cycle. >> >> By removing the loads I was able to get an open-circuit voltage of 71V, but that still seems pretty low. >> >> Has anyone else experienced a voltage degradation issue with the Uni-Solar laminate? What was the expected annual voltage degradation for this technology? >> >> These modules do have some age on them. The system was installed about 15 years ago (by a competent installer who is now retired). The system was installed before MPPT controllers were common, so I assume the modules are wired in strings of 4 for 48V nominal. >> >> Any experiences or opinions are appreciated. >> Thanks in advance. >> >> -Luke >> >> >> Luke Christy >> >> > > Jay Peltz > Peltz Power > jay.peltz at gmail.com _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun May 31 21:52:30 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 15:52:30 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Voltage Degradation with Uni-Solar laminate In-Reply-To: <99D7D8C2-2098-4EF7-B067-3FAD963143AC@BrooksSolar.com> References: <556B5365.7030703@solarray.com> <99D7D8C2-2098-4EF7-B067-3FAD963143AC@BrooksSolar.com> Message-ID: One solution is to restring up to the max of the outback, say double what you got now, easy to do on the combined. This will not change the fact of cause that the modules are molding some of the power but will get the input voltage up where it needs to be Jerry On May 31, 2015 4:03 PM, "Randy Brooks" wrote: > I second Jay. If one string is significantly lower, I’d check each module > in the string. Could be a bad module. > > Randy > > On May 31, 2015, at 1:23 PM, jay peltz wrote: > > HI Luke, > > To add here. I'm unclear if you have measured each string or the whole > array at 71v. > I would check each string for voc/isc. > > And then if they are consistent, I agree that putting 2 strings in series > with a new controller might help out. > You can try it with the MX-60 as you are at only 142v. If it works better > then a new higher voltage CC would be required for winter higher voc. > > Let us know what you find out. > > jay > > > On 5/31/2015 11:55 AM, Luke Christy wrote: > >> Hello Off-Grid Wrenches, >> >> I recently made a periodic maintenance visit to a residential off-grid system I take care of here in Southern CO, and discovered an interesting problem. >> >> This system has an array of 48x Uni-Solar PVL-68 laminate modules applied directly to standing-seam metal roofing. >> >> The data logging on the controller (Outback MX-60) indicated that the system was having trouble completing a charge cycle and going to float. Initially I assumed was due to heavy electrical use by the occupants (renters). After a little checking, I noticed that the module string voltage was only about 0.5V above the battery voltage! >> This was a cool late morning, with full sun, and the array was charging almost 2kW at 54.5V. The module strings were running at 55V. I've noticed the module voltage being lower than I'd like before, but it has never been this low. I suspect this is the real reason the system hasn't been able to complete a charge cycle. >> >> By removing the loads I was able to get an open-circuit voltage of 71V, but that still seems pretty low. >> >> Has anyone else experienced a voltage degradation issue with the Uni-Solar laminate? What was the expected annual voltage degradation for this technology? >> >> These modules do have some age on them. The system was installed about 15 years ago (by a competent installer who is now retired). The system was installed before MPPT controllers were common, so I assume the modules are wired in strings of 4 for 48V nominal. >> >> Any experiences or opinions are appreciated. >> Thanks in advance. >> >> -Luke >> >> >> Luke Christy >> >> >> >> Jay Peltz > Peltz Power > jay.peltz at gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Mon Jun 1 00:59:07 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 22:59:07 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Voltage Degradation with Uni-Solar laminate In-Reply-To: References: <556B5365.7030703@solarray.com> Message-ID: <556BE69B.7040608@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 01:08:27 2015 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 23:08:27 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Voltage Degradation with Uni-Solar laminate Message-ID: <5635C9A8-C0E7-43B6-844B-487C595DB85F@gmail.com> Jay, the 71V I measured was the array VOC. Accessing the wiring for individual strings is fairly difficult as the combiners are high up in a hot attic. I didn't have a lot of time on site the day I observed this problem, so didn't gather as much information as I could have otherwise. A re-wire for more voltage looks like the solution. With 8 modules in series, allowing for a wintertime extreme minimum temp of -30C is really going to drive the VOC up there. That looks like Classic 250 territory for a long-term solution -Luke As On May 31, 2015, at 1:23 PM, jay peltz wrote: HI Luke, To add here. I'm unclear if you have measured each string or the whole array at 71v. I would check each string for voc/isc. And then if they are consistent, I agree that putting 2 strings in series with a new controller might help out. You can try it with the MX-60 as you are at only 142v. If it works better then a new higher voltage CC would be required for winter higher voc. Let us know what you find out. jay Luke Christy NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 CoSEIA Certified PV Installer Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO. 81144 SGSRenewables at Gmail.com 719.588.3044 www.sgsrenewables.com From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 01:22:36 2015 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 23:22:36 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Voltage Degradation with Uni-Solar laminate In-Reply-To: <556BE69B.7040608@sindelarsolar.com> References: <556B5365.7030703@solarray.com> <556BE69B.7040608@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <0D5EF23C-D1A6-49B9-8EC7-F92FFACB11D2@gmail.com> Allen, With 8 modules in series I think I'll be looking at a Classic 250 for sure to be comfortable with winter morning VOC. I don't really know what kind of combiner situation I'll find up in the attic. It may be easy enough to re-wire into strings of 6 instead of strings of 8, though that is still probably going to push me just over the 150 VOC hard limit of the MX-60. I may not be able to get around replacing the controller. -Luke On May 31, 2015, at 10:59 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > Jay, > Whoa, I'd be careful there. Unless there's been a change while I was away on my bicycle, Outbacks are still 140V rated maximum voltage and 150V hard maximum. 142Voc in May suggests that doubling strings in series will easily exceed max Voc in winter. That's why I previously suggested Classic 200 or 250. Am I missing something? > Allan > > Allan Sindelar > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > 505 780-2738 cell > > > On 5/31/2015 2:23 PM, jay peltz wrote: >> HI Luke, >> >> To add here. I'm unclear if you have measured each string or the whole array at 71v. >> I would check each string for voc/isc. >> >> And then if they are consistent, I agree that putting 2 strings in series with a new controller might help out. >> You can try it with the MX-60 as you are at only 142v. If it works better then a new higher voltage CC would be required for winter higher voc. >> >> Let us know what you find out. >> >> jay >> >> Luke Christy NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 CoSEIA Certified PV Installer Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO. 81144 SGSRenewables at Gmail.com 719.588.3044 www.sgsrenewables.com From ray at solarray.com Mon Jun 1 01:24:58 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 23:24:58 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Voltage Degradation with Uni-Solar laminate In-Reply-To: <556BE69B.7040608@sindelarsolar.com> References: <556B5365.7030703@solarray.com> <556BE69B.7040608@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <556BECAA.1000805@solarray.com> I agree, scratch my previous suggestion of 8 in series on the Outback controller. I got so used to Midnites that I forgot how unforgiving the Outback controllers are with high Voc. Run the Unisolar modules through the Midnite sizer. http://www.midnitesolar.com/sizingTool/index.php R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 5/31/2015 10:59 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > Jay, > Whoa, I'd be careful there. Unless there's been a change while I was > away on my bicycle, Outbacks are still 140V rated maximum voltage and > 150V hard maximum. 142Voc in May suggests that doubling strings in > series will easily exceed max Voc in winter. That's why I previously > suggested Classic 200 or 250. Am I missing something? > Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > ** > > On 5/31/2015 2:23 PM, jay peltz wrote: >> HI Luke, >> >> To add here. I'm unclear if you have measured each string or the >> whole array at 71v. >> I would check each string for voc/isc. >> >> And then if they are consistent, I agree that putting 2 strings in >> series with a new controller might help out. >> You can try it with the MX-60 as you are at only 142v. If it works >> better then a new higher voltage CC would be required for winter >> higher voc. >> >> Let us know what you find out. >> >> jay >> >> >> On 5/31/2015 11:55 AM, Luke Christy wrote: >> >>> Hello Off-Grid Wrenches, >>> >>> I recently made a periodic maintenance visit to a residential off-grid system I take care of here in Southern CO, and discovered an interesting problem. >>> >>> This system has an array of 48x Uni-Solar PVL-68 laminate modules applied directly to standing-seam metal roofing. >>> >>> The data logging on the controller (Outback MX-60) indicated that the system was having trouble completing a charge cycle and going to float. Initially I assumed was due to heavy electrical use by the occupants (renters). After a little checking, I noticed that the module string voltage was only about 0.5V above the battery voltage! >>> This was a cool late morning, with full sun, and the array was charging almost 2kW at 54.5V. The module strings were running at 55V. I've noticed the module voltage being lower than I'd like before, but it has never been this low. I suspect this is the real reason the system hasn't been able to complete a charge cycle. >>> >>> By removing the loads I was able to get an open-circuit voltage of 71V, but that still seems pretty low. >>> >>> Has anyone else experienced a voltage degradation issue with the Uni-Solar laminate? What was the expected annual voltage degradation for this technology? >>> >>> These modules do have some age on them. The system was installed about 15 years ago (by a competent installer who is now retired). The system was installed before MPPT controllers were common, so I assume the modules are wired in strings of 4 for 48V nominal. >>> >>> Any experiences or opinions are appreciated. >>> Thanks in advance. >>> >>> -Luke >>> >>> >>> Luke Christy >>> >>> >> >> Jay Peltz >> Peltz Power >> jay.peltz at gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Mon Jun 1 01:30:02 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 23:30:02 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Voltage Degradation with Uni-Solar laminate In-Reply-To: <0D5EF23C-D1A6-49B9-8EC7-F92FFACB11D2@gmail.com> References: <556B5365.7030703@solarray.com> <556BE69B.7040608@sindelarsolar.com> <0D5EF23C-D1A6-49B9-8EC7-F92FFACB11D2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <556BEDDA.7050108@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 02:27:18 2015 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 00:27:18 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Voltage Degradation with Uni-Solar laminate In-Reply-To: <556BEDDA.7050108@sindelarsolar.com> References: <556B5365.7030703@solarray.com> <556BE69B.7040608@sindelarsolar.com> <0D5EF23C-D1A6-49B9-8EC7-F92FFACB11D2@gmail.com> <556BEDDA.7050108@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <32FC0706-2B6B-4762-9011-9D974F43ECA5@gmail.com> Thanks to everyone for your responses, both on and off-list. You guys rock. Allan, The system was originally installed in 2000 with an Ananda controller/disconnect box. The giant one with the mercury relays. It failed about 6 years ago and an MX-60 was installed to replace it. I agree that a modern controller is a no-brainer. I'd like to avoid having to replace the MX-60, but i don't see any way around it if I do a re-wire. To Ray's point, doing the string sizing exercise shows that a Classic 250 with 8 mods in series is probably the easiest solution, although there might be clipping in some circumstances. The existing MX-60 is in trouble for anything over 5 in series. -Luke On May 31, 2015, at 11:30 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > Luke, > I deleted your first message, but I thought you wrote that the system was pre-MPPT, with strings wired as 4 12 Vnom in series. IT seems to me that given insufficient Vmp, a modern controller is a no-brainer anyway, and it's only a matter to which one to use. > > A Classic 250 is the easy route that lets you solve a major problem with a simple and sensible component upgrade. It'll cost the customer nearly as much for a winter return trip to estimate Voc. > But I agree with Jay and Randy: first check the existing array for failures. > Allan > > Allan Sindelar > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > 505 780-2738 cell > > > On 5/31/2015 11:22 PM, Luke Christy wrote: >> Allen, >> With 8 modules in series I think I'll be looking at a Classic 250 for sure to be comfortable with winter morning VOC. >> I don't really know what kind of combiner situation I'll find up in the attic. It may be easy enough to re-wire into strings of 6 instead of strings of 8, though that is still probably going to push me just over the 150 VOC hard limit of the MX-60. I may not be able to get around replacing the controller. >> >> -Luke >> >> >> >> On May 31, 2015, at 10:59 PM, Allan Sindelar >> >> wrote: >> >> >>> Jay, >>> Whoa, I'd be careful there. Unless there's been a change while I was away on my bicycle, Outbacks are still 140V rated maximum voltage and 150V hard maximum. 142Voc in May suggests that doubling strings in series will easily exceed max Voc in winter. That's why I previously suggested Classic 200 or 250. Am I missing something? >>> Allan >>> >>> Allan Sindelar >>> >>> allan at sindelarsolar.com >>> >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional >>> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >>> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >>> 505 780-2738 cell >>> >>> >>> On 5/31/2015 2:23 PM, jay peltz wrote: >>> >>>> HI Luke, >>>> >>>> To add here. I'm unclear if you have measured each string or the whole array at 71v. >>>> I would check each string for voc/isc. >>>> >>>> And then if they are consistent, I agree that putting 2 strings in series with a new controller might help out. >>>> You can try it with the MX-60 as you are at only 142v. If it works better then a new higher voltage CC would be required for winter higher voc. >>>> >>>> Let us know what you find out. >>>> >>>> jay >>>> >>>> >>>> >> Luke Christy >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 >> NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 >> CoSEIA Certified PV Installer >> >> Solar Gain Services, LLC >> PO Box 531 >> Monte Vista, CO. 81144 >> >> SGSRenewables at Gmail.com >> >> 719.588.3044 >> >> www.sgsrenewables.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: >> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > Luke Christy NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 CoSEIA Certified PV Installer Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO. 81144 SGSRenewables at Gmail.com 719.588.3044 www.sgsrenewables.com From frenergy at psln.com Mon Jun 1 10:30:38 2015 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 07:30:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ham Radio interference References: <556B5365.7030703@solarray.com> <556BE69B.7040608@sindelarsolar.com><0D5EF23C-D1A6-49B9-8EC7-F92FFACB11D2@gmail.com><556BEDDA.7050108@sindelarsolar.com> <32FC0706-2B6B-4762-9011-9D974F43ECA5@gmail.com> Message-ID: Folks, I looked back in the archives with no luck..... Specifically, has anyone experienced any problems with RF/Ham radio operation and SMA TL-22 inverters. I seem to be pretty partial to them lately and I have a potential job with the customer asking about possible problems with interference. Where better to ask than here. I know we've talked about this before but I don't think any "new" discussion has come up with these newer TLs. Thanks for all the great options for a supply side connection. Bill Feather River Solar Electric From kirk at vtsolar.com Mon Jun 1 10:47:23 2015 From: kirk at vtsolar.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 10:47:23 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] washing machines Message-ID: <005c01d09c79$defd6a30$9cf83e90$@vtsolar.com> I have an off-grid customer with a 15 year old Xantrex SW5548 inverter and Staber washer. They need to replace the washer, and want to buy something local. Any name brands you can think of that are compatible with the Xantrex staircased waveform? Thanks. Kirk Herander VT Solar, LLC Proven PV provider since 1991 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Mon Jun 1 11:22:16 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 09:22:16 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] washing machines In-Reply-To: <005c01d09c79$defd6a30$9cf83e90$@vtsolar.com> References: <005c01d09c79$defd6a30$9cf83e90$@vtsolar.com> Message-ID: <007d01d09c7e$bf0b1010$3d213030$@com> Great success with the Fisher/Paykal at 140-160 watt hours per load. I have used one for over 10 years now. Early models had a few maint. problems and the last washer is now over 8 years and going strong. They are kind of Plain Jane old style which has turned off a couple of clients as they wanted the "new" (behemoth) look in washers. I will probably get another F/P if I can talk my wife out of a "new" looking unit...... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirk Herander Sent: Monday, June 01, 2015 8:47 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] washing machines I have an off-grid customer with a 15 year old Xantrex SW5548 inverter and Staber washer. They need to replace the washer, and want to buy something local. Any name brands you can think of that are compatible with the Xantrex staircased waveform? Thanks. Kirk Herander VT Solar, LLC Proven PV provider since 1991 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Mon Jun 1 11:58:25 2015 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 08:58:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] washing machines References: <005c01d09c79$defd6a30$9cf83e90$@vtsolar.com> Message-ID: Kirk, Staber used to tout the tolerance their machines had to Mod sine inverters and they are made in the US. I guess you'd have to define "local". We just replaced our old Staber a year ago, which suffered through our family of 4 for 17 years...and we bought another Staber. Bill Feather River Solar Electric 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 / 6544 fax ----- Original Message ----- From: Kirk Herander To: RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, June 01, 2015 7:47 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] washing machines I have an off-grid customer with a 15 year old Xantrex SW5548 inverter and Staber washer. They need to replace the washer, and want to buy something local. Any name brands you can think of that are compatible with the Xantrex staircased waveform? Thanks. Kirk Herander VT Solar, LLC Proven PV provider since 1991 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Mon Jun 1 12:48:41 2015 From: Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com (Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 12:48:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Voltage Degradation with Uni-Solar laminate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi: With the rapid increase in the number of new installs and installers, the question of determining the lowest Voc for a system which uses PWM or MPPT charge controllers has come up more often recently. I did a slide for it in our training, a. PWM and MPPT charge controllers cannot boost the incoming voltage. The input voltage always has to higher than the desired charging output voltage. b. Charge controllers have a loss in the range of 2-4%, depending on array voltage, battery voltage, charging current, temperature etc. c. The charge controller loss will cause a voltage drop from input to output which will be proportional to the loss percentage. d. Additional losses will be present due to system wiring, terminations, etc. e. The total system loss will typically be in the range of 4 -6 %, depending on the particulars of the design and operating conditions such as temperature, sun intensity etc. f. The lowest possible Vmp of any module is approximately 75% to 90% of the highest possible Voc for virtually all modules depending on module type and whole bunch of other environmental and operating variables. In other words, by the time you go through the math, the Voc of typical PWM or MPPT systems needs to be in the range of 1.3 X the highest desired charging voltage, (1.3X equalize voltage if that is to be used, 1.3X bulk if that's the highest desired). If you don't have enough margin, then the effect is that the module/array will still provide charging current, but it will forced to operate at a voltage somewhere between Voc and Vmp. It will therefore produce a reduced amount of charging current less than Imp and possibly approaching zero if the module/array is asked to operate at or very near Voc. Marginal design along with the guaranteed variable nature of sun intensity and ambient temperature throughout the year, very likely can result in a system which will provide a charging current, but wont be able to quite reach bulk voltage and that of course is not a good thing. Whatever the cause, you need more Voc. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Luke Christy To: "re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org" , Date: 05/31/2015 10:55 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Voltage Degradation with Uni-Solar laminate Sent by: "RE-wrenches" Hello Off-Grid Wrenches, I recently made a periodic maintenance visit to a residential off-grid system I take care of here in Southern CO, and discovered an interesting problem. This system has an array of 48x Uni-Solar PVL-68 laminate modules applied directly to standing-seam metal roofing. The data logging on the controller (Outback MX-60) indicated that the system was having trouble completing a charge cycle and going to float. Initially I assumed was due to heavy electrical use by the occupants (renters). After a little checking, I noticed that the module string voltage was only about 0.5V above the battery voltage! This was a cool late morning, with full sun, and the array was charging almost 2kW at 54.5V. The module strings were running at 55V. I've noticed the module voltage being lower than I'd like before, but it has never been this low. I suspect this is the real reason the system hasn't been able to complete a charge cycle. By removing the loads I was able to get an open-circuit voltage of 71V, but that still seems pretty low. Has anyone else experienced a voltage degradation issue with the Uni-Solar laminate? What was the expected annual voltage degradation for this technology? These modules do have some age on them. The system was installed about 15 years ago (by a competent installer who is now retired). The system was installed before MPPT controllers were common, so I assume the modules are wired in strings of 4 for 48V nominal. Any experiences or opinions are appreciated. Thanks in advance. -Luke Luke Christy NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 CoSEIA Certified PV Installer Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO. 81144 SGSRenewables at Gmail.com 719.588.3044 www.sgsrenewables.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rebekah.hren at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 13:24:05 2015 From: rebekah.hren at gmail.com (Rebekah Hren) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 13:24:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Voltage Degradation with Uni-Solar laminate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Attached is a screenshot of an example calculation from SEI for minimum modules in series for controllers, similar to Jarmo's but more system-specific. And fairly conservative because of the 1.2 factor for degradation over time (which includes voltage drop). Note there are values specific to the site, batteries, and module - this example was for a roof mounted array thus the 30ºC cell temp adder. SEI recommends not going lower than 1.1 times bulk voltage for the target minimum array voltage although 1.2 is a good target to start with. One thing I'd note is that for systems without a generator or other charging source besides PV the target array voltage should be 1.2 times *equalize voltage* not bulk voltage. And of course a maximum modules in series calc has to be done too. [image: Inline image 1]. Cheers, Rebekah ​ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2015-06-01 at 1.07.47 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 158070 bytes Desc: not available URL: From august at luminalt.com Mon Jun 1 13:30:11 2015 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 10:30:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Properly disposing solar modules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8b33b6caa02c4125246f8b1a899cb8e2@mail.gmail.com> All – Does anyone know that proper way to dispose of junk PV modules? I’ve heard that they should be recyclable but I’m having a hard time finding a place to take them. We’ve dealt with several BP recalls and they just take them to the landfill which seems like a shame. Best, August -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Mon Jun 1 14:21:05 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 11:21:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Voltage Degradation with Uni-Solar laminate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Luke, For reference, we sold/installed many hundreds of Uni-Solar products since 2002. I have never seen anywhere near that much Voc loss. Since the PVL-68 has an open circuit of 23.1V (92.4V) but you only see 14.2V (71V), a loss of 25%, I do not believe degradation is the culprit even at 15 years. The rated degradation is 0.73% per year. That should put you at 82.3 Voc. But, Uni-Solar consistantly outputs at least 10% more than rated power, even with age it should be higher than 82 volts. Proper Uni-Solar installation required 2 screws into the roof up near the top. A misplaced screw and time or an open seam may be causing a ground fault, pulling down the voltage of the array. Start by using a Megger at the combiner to check for leakage. No one likes crawling in a hot attic but I think you may need to. Larry Crutcher Hello Off-Grid Wrenches, I recently made a periodic maintenance visit to a residential off-grid system I take care of here in Southern CO, and discovered an interesting problem. This system has an array of 48x Uni-Solar PVL-68 laminate modules applied directly to standing-seam metal roofing. The data logging on the controller (Outback MX-60) indicated that the system was having trouble completing a charge cycle and going to float. Initially I assumed was due to heavy electrical use by the occupants (renters). After a little checking, I noticed that the module string voltage was only about 0.5V above the battery voltage! This was a cool late morning, with full sun, and the array was charging almost 2kW at 54.5V. The module strings were running at 55V. I've noticed the module voltage being lower than I'd like before, but it has never been this low. I suspect this is the real reason the system hasn't been able to complete a charge cycle. By removing the loads I was able to get an open-circuit voltage of 71V, but that still seems pretty low. Has anyone else experienced a voltage degradation issue with the Uni-Solar laminate? What was the expected annual voltage degradation for this technology? These modules do have some age on them. The system was installed about 15 years ago (by a competent installer who is now retired). The system was installed before MPPT controllers were common, so I assume the modules are wired in strings of 4 for 48V nominal. Any experiences or opinions are appreciated. Thanks in advance. -Luke Luke Christy NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 CoSEIA Certified PV Installer Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO. 81144 SGSRenewables at Gmail.com 719.588.3044 www.sgsrenewables.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From boB at midnitesolar.com Mon Jun 1 14:28:54 2015 From: boB at midnitesolar.com (boB at midnitesolar.com) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2015 11:28:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Voltage Degradation with Uni-Solar laminate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <556CA466.40703@midnitesolar.com> Partial shading will also reduce the MPP voltage and to a much smaller extent, the Voc. I don't suppose there are some new trees or something at the site ? Jarmo, I like your presentation. boB On 6/1/2015 11:21 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > Luke, > > For reference, we sold/installed many hundreds of Uni-Solar products > since 2002. I have never seen anywhere near that much Voc loss. > > Since the PVL-68 has an open circuit of 23.1V (92.4V) but you only see > 14.2V (71V), a loss of 25%, I do not believe degradation is the > culprit even at 15 years. The rated degradation is 0.73% per year. > That should put you at 82.3 Voc. But, Uni-Solar consistantly outputs > at least 10% more than rated power, even with age it should be higher > than 82 volts. > > Proper Uni-Solar installation required 2 screws into the roof up near > the top. A misplaced screw and time or an open seam may be causing a > ground fault, pulling down the voltage of the array. Start by using a > Megger at the combiner to check for leakage. No one likes crawling in > a hot attic but I think you may need to. > > > Larry Crutcher > > > > Hello Off-Grid Wrenches, > > I recently made a periodic maintenance visit to a residential off-grid > system I take care of here in Southern CO, and discovered an > interesting problem. > > This system has an array of 48x Uni-Solar PVL-68 laminate modules > applied directly to standing-seam metal roofing. > > The data logging on the controller (Outback MX-60) indicated that the > system was having trouble completing a charge cycle and going to > float. Initially I assumed was due to heavy electrical use by the > occupants (renters). After a little checking, I noticed that the > module string voltage was only about 0.5V above the battery voltage! > This was a cool late morning, with full sun, and the array was > charging almost 2kW at 54.5V. The module strings were running at 55V. > I've noticed the module voltage being lower than I'd like before, but > it has never been this low. I suspect this is the real reason the > system hasn't been able to complete a charge cycle. > > By removing the loads I was able to get an open-circuit voltage of > 71V, but that still seems pretty low. > > Has anyone else experienced a voltage degradation issue with the > Uni-Solar laminate? What was the expected annual voltage degradation > for this technology? > > These modules do have some age on them. The system was installed about > 15 years ago (by a competent installer who is now retired). The system > was installed before MPPT controllers were common, so I assume the > modules are wired in strings of 4 for 48V nominal. > > Any experiences or opinions are appreciated. > Thanks in advance. > > -Luke > > > Luke Christy > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professionalâ„¢: Certification #031409-25 > NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installerâ„¢: Certification #ST032611-03 > CoSEIA Certified PV Installer > > Solar Gain Services, LLC > PO Box 531 > Monte Vista, CO. 81144 > SGSRenewables at Gmail.com > 719.588.3044 > www.sgsrenewables.com > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Mon Jun 1 14:30:07 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 11:30:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Voltage Degradation with Uni-Solar laminate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <729B3555-7A40-419F-AC62-337240494039@starlightsolar.com> Sorry...I meant to type 17.75V (71V). On Jun 1, 2015, at 11:21 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: Luke, For reference, we sold/installed many hundreds of Uni-Solar products since 2002. I have never seen anywhere near that much Voc loss. Since the PVL-68 has an open circuit of 23.1V (92.4V) but you only see 14.2V (71V), a loss of 25%, I do not believe degradation is the culprit even at 15 years. The rated degradation is 0.73% per year. That should put you at 82.3 Voc. But, Uni-Solar consistantly outputs at least 10% more than rated power, even with age it should be higher than 82 volts. Proper Uni-Solar installation required 2 screws into the roof up near the top. A misplaced screw and time or an open seam may be causing a ground fault, pulling down the voltage of the array. Start by using a Megger at the combiner to check for leakage. No one likes crawling in a hot attic but I think you may need to. Larry Crutcher Hello Off-Grid Wrenches, I recently made a periodic maintenance visit to a residential off-grid system I take care of here in Southern CO, and discovered an interesting problem. This system has an array of 48x Uni-Solar PVL-68 laminate modules applied directly to standing-seam metal roofing. The data logging on the controller (Outback MX-60) indicated that the system was having trouble completing a charge cycle and going to float. Initially I assumed was due to heavy electrical use by the occupants (renters). After a little checking, I noticed that the module string voltage was only about 0.5V above the battery voltage! This was a cool late morning, with full sun, and the array was charging almost 2kW at 54.5V. The module strings were running at 55V. I've noticed the module voltage being lower than I'd like before, but it has never been this low. I suspect this is the real reason the system hasn't been able to complete a charge cycle. By removing the loads I was able to get an open-circuit voltage of 71V, but that still seems pretty low. Has anyone else experienced a voltage degradation issue with the Uni-Solar laminate? What was the expected annual voltage degradation for this technology? These modules do have some age on them. The system was installed about 15 years ago (by a competent installer who is now retired). The system was installed before MPPT controllers were common, so I assume the modules are wired in strings of 4 for 48V nominal. Any experiences or opinions are appreciated. Thanks in advance. -Luke Luke Christy NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 CoSEIA Certified PV Installer Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO. 81144 SGSRenewables at Gmail.com 719.588.3044 www.sgsrenewables.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From boB at midnitesolar.com Mon Jun 1 14:35:04 2015 From: boB at midnitesolar.com (boB at midnitesolar.com) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2015 11:35:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Voltage Degradation with Uni-Solar laminate In-Reply-To: <556CA466.40703@midnitesolar.com> References: <556CA466.40703@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: <556CA5D8.1080000@midnitesolar.com> Oooo... Or maybe a module or more are shorted and being bypassed ? A FLIR can sometimes come in handy to look at the entire array and of course detect bad/hot connections. But a shorted module will be almost as hot as a working module at MPP voltage. boB On 6/1/2015 11:28 AM, boB at midnitesolar.com wrote: > > > Partial shading will also reduce the MPP voltage and to a much smaller > extent, the Voc. > > I don't suppose there are some new trees or something at the site ? > > Jarmo, I like your presentation. > > boB > > > On 6/1/2015 11:21 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: >> Luke, >> >> For reference, we sold/installed many hundreds of Uni-Solar products >> since 2002. I have never seen anywhere near that much Voc loss. >> >> Since the PVL-68 has an open circuit of 23.1V (92.4V) but you only >> see 14.2V (71V), a loss of 25%, I do not believe degradation is the >> culprit even at 15 years. The rated degradation is 0.73% per year. >> That should put you at 82.3 Voc. But, Uni-Solar consistantly outputs >> at least 10% more than rated power, even with age it should be >> higher than 82 volts. >> >> Proper Uni-Solar installation required 2 screws into the roof up near >> the top. A misplaced screw and time or an open seam may be causing a >> ground fault, pulling down the voltage of the array. Start by using a >> Megger at the combiner to check for leakage. No one likes crawling in >> a hot attic but I think you may need to. >> >> >> Larry Crutcher >> >> >> >> Hello Off-Grid Wrenches, >> >> I recently made a periodic maintenance visit to a residential >> off-grid system I take care of here in Southern CO, and discovered an >> interesting problem. >> >> This system has an array of 48x Uni-Solar PVL-68 laminate modules >> applied directly to standing-seam metal roofing. >> >> The data logging on the controller (Outback MX-60) indicated that the >> system was having trouble completing a charge cycle and going to >> float. Initially I assumed was due to heavy electrical use by the >> occupants (renters). After a little checking, I noticed that the >> module string voltage was only about 0.5V above the battery voltage! >> This was a cool late morning, with full sun, and the array was >> charging almost 2kW at 54.5V. The module strings were running at 55V. >> I've noticed the module voltage being lower than I'd like before, but >> it has never been this low. I suspect this is the real reason the >> system hasn't been able to complete a charge cycle. >> >> By removing the loads I was able to get an open-circuit voltage of >> 71V, but that still seems pretty low. >> >> Has anyone else experienced a voltage degradation issue with the >> Uni-Solar laminate? What was the expected annual voltage degradation >> for this technology? >> >> These modules do have some age on them. The system was installed >> about 15 years ago (by a competent installer who is now retired). The >> system was installed before MPPT controllers were common, so I assume >> the modules are wired in strings of 4 for 48V nominal. >> >> Any experiences or opinions are appreciated. >> Thanks in advance. >> >> -Luke >> >> >> Luke Christy >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professionalâ„¢: Certification #031409-25 >> NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installerâ„¢: Certification #ST032611-03 >> CoSEIA Certified PV Installer >> >> Solar Gain Services, LLC >> PO Box 531 >> Monte Vista, CO. 81144 >> SGSRenewables at Gmail.com >> 719.588.3044 >> www.sgsrenewables.com >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Mon Jun 1 15:10:50 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 12:10:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Finally, a simple battery backup switch/controller Message-ID: <6E614147-A6B8-4A4F-BF74-CC3EAFF15F08@starlightsolar.com> Many years ago I thought of something like this and wondered why it was not being made. It’s great to see a product arrive that will make battery backup direct and simple. No need for dump loads. I like it! http://www.morningstarcorp.com/backup-power-grid-tied-solar-systems/ Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 14:13:02 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 08:13:02 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Voltage Degradation with Uni-Solar laminate In-Reply-To: <99D7D8C2-2098-4EF7-B067-3FAD963143AC@BrooksSolar.com> References: <556B5365.7030703@solarray.com> <99D7D8C2-2098-4EF7-B067-3FAD963143AC@BrooksSolar.com> Message-ID: Do you or anyone you know have a IR Curve tester Jerry On May 31, 2015 4:03 PM, "Randy Brooks" wrote: > I second Jay. If one string is significantly lower, I’d check each module > in the string. Could be a bad module. > > Randy > > On May 31, 2015, at 1:23 PM, jay peltz wrote: > > HI Luke, > > To add here. I'm unclear if you have measured each string or the whole > array at 71v. > I would check each string for voc/isc. > > And then if they are consistent, I agree that putting 2 strings in series > with a new controller might help out. > You can try it with the MX-60 as you are at only 142v. If it works better > then a new higher voltage CC would be required for winter higher voc. > > Let us know what you find out. > > jay > > > On 5/31/2015 11:55 AM, Luke Christy wrote: > >> Hello Off-Grid Wrenches, >> >> I recently made a periodic maintenance visit to a residential off-grid system I take care of here in Southern CO, and discovered an interesting problem. >> >> This system has an array of 48x Uni-Solar PVL-68 laminate modules applied directly to standing-seam metal roofing. >> >> The data logging on the controller (Outback MX-60) indicated that the system was having trouble completing a charge cycle and going to float. Initially I assumed was due to heavy electrical use by the occupants (renters). After a little checking, I noticed that the module string voltage was only about 0.5V above the battery voltage! >> This was a cool late morning, with full sun, and the array was charging almost 2kW at 54.5V. The module strings were running at 55V. I've noticed the module voltage being lower than I'd like before, but it has never been this low. I suspect this is the real reason the system hasn't been able to complete a charge cycle. >> >> By removing the loads I was able to get an open-circuit voltage of 71V, but that still seems pretty low. >> >> Has anyone else experienced a voltage degradation issue with the Uni-Solar laminate? What was the expected annual voltage degradation for this technology? >> >> These modules do have some age on them. The system was installed about 15 years ago (by a competent installer who is now retired). The system was installed before MPPT controllers were common, so I assume the modules are wired in strings of 4 for 48V nominal. >> >> Any experiences or opinions are appreciated. >> Thanks in advance. >> >> -Luke >> >> >> Luke Christy >> >> >> >> Jay Peltz > Peltz Power > jay.peltz at gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 19:46:30 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay peltz) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 16:46:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Voltage Degradation with Uni-Solar laminate In-Reply-To: <556B5365.7030703@solarray.com> References: <556B5365.7030703@solarray.com> Message-ID: HI Ray, Can you tell me/us where you have your data on the a-Si having higher voltage degradation over time? thanks jay On Sun, May 31, 2015 at 11:31 AM, Ray Walters wrote: > Yes, amorphous modules degrade faster then crystalline cells. 15 years > will really start catching up with you, that's why we always tried to stick > to monocrystalline when we could. > I think your best option for now is to rewire the array for much higher > voltage. Even your current voltage problem aside, the system will run more > efficiently at higher voltage: Less current = less voltage drop. I would > probably just jump the 4 module sets in series in the combiner box to 8 in > series. Should be a quick fix, and really show an improvement. I've seen > this same issue with low voltage polys and undersized wiring. Usually the > MPP controllers like some room to play with; as soon as the MPP voltage > gets close to or less than battery voltage, the current drops off > substantially. > > > > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 > > Jay Peltz Peltz Power jay.peltz at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 23:41:17 2015 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 21:41:17 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Voltage Degradation with Uni-Solar laminate In-Reply-To: References: <556B5365.7030703@solarray.com> <99D7D8C2-2098-4EF7-B067-3FAD963143AC@BrooksSolar.com> Message-ID: <3752A786-0054-47F9-A0B9-A01ACFC02047@gmail.com> Unfortunately I don't have easy access to a Curve Tracer. That would be nice for this situation though. -Luke On Jun 1, 2015, at 12:13 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Do you or anyone you know have a IR Curve tester > Jerry > Luke Christy NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 CoSEIA Certified PV Installer Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO. 81144 SGSRenewables at Gmail.com 719.588.3044 www.sgsrenewables.com From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 23:41:21 2015 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 21:41:21 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Voltage Degradation with Uni-Solar laminate In-Reply-To: <729B3555-7A40-419F-AC62-337240494039@starlightsolar.com> References: <729B3555-7A40-419F-AC62-337240494039@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <1F7F4800-529F-41DC-A4AC-7467CEAF2B4B@gmail.com> Larry, Thanks. This is helpful. I think it's pretty clear that this system should have been designed with at least 5 or 6 modules in series to keep the VOC higher, but that wasn't very feasible with the original controller when the system was installed 15 years ago. Still, it has worked pretty well for a decade and a half, and I've never noticed the array voltage that low before. I fear I'm in for a hot attic crawl to do some more testing and checking for faults. -Luke On Jun 1, 2015, at 12:30 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > Sorry...I meant to type 17.75V (71V). > > > > On Jun 1, 2015, at 11:21 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > > Luke, > > For reference, we sold/installed many hundreds of Uni-Solar products since 2002. I have never seen anywhere near that much Voc loss. > > Since the PVL-68 has an open circuit of 23.1V (92.4V) but you only see 14.2V (71V), a loss of 25%, I do not believe degradation is the culprit even at 15 years. The rated degradation is 0.73% per year. That should put you at 82.3 Voc. But, Uni-Solar consistantly outputs at least 10% more than rated power, even with age it should be higher than 82 volts. > > Proper Uni-Solar installation required 2 screws into the roof up near the top. A misplaced screw and time or an open seam may be causing a ground fault, pulling down the voltage of the array. Start by using a Megger at the combiner to check for leakage. No one likes crawling in a hot attic but I think you may need to. > > > Larry Crutcher > > From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Jun 2 11:34:51 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2015 11:34:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ConnectDER In-Reply-To: <1432598312.60728626@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <26C3EC91-D268-4F00-A9DF-36540376C189@gmail.com> <5561225F.6040805@midnitesolar.com> <55613FF4.1080409@solarray.com> <811788075B334B25B9A0A9F8CF59CC57@D8XG8YH1> <1432598312.60728626@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: One of our local utilities just denied the use of the ConnectDER... some nonsense about excess weight if the customer also has a surge suppressor and generator input collar device already. They just blanket prohibited it even for customers that have no existing collar devices installed. #smallminds Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 7:58 PM, wrote: > wow, engenius. thanks for posting this. > > > > http://connectder.com/products > > > > todd > > > > > > > > > > On Monday, May 25, 2015 4:48pm, "John Blittersdorf" < > john.blittersdorf at gmail.com> said: > > Bill, > One clean way to do it would be to use a ConnectDER, but the max input > is 11.5 kw. We have used several of these for under 10 k installations and > have saved lots of install time. They are not cheap (approx $300+). Our > power company sells them to installers. > John Blittersdorf > Central Vermont Solar & Wind > > On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 12:39 AM, frenergy wrote: > >> Wrenches, >> >> Customer currently has a hacked up 200 amp Sylvania meter/mains >> panel. He also is averaging a load of 74 KWhrs/day! which will require >> about 15 KW system size at this site. Obviously a system this size cannot >> backfeed the busses in the load center. Because the exiting panel is a >> mess anyway, I'm suggesting it gets changed out. >> >> What sort of new 200 amp service would facilitate a clean supply >> side connection. One thought is have separate Utility meter socket then a >> 12 X 12 J-box with a monster power distribution block in it and then a >> distribution panel (without the meter socket)...this being a way to insert >> a means to grid-tie between the meter and the 200 amp main breaker. A >> little spendy but nothing like going to higher amp service to be able to >> load side connect. >> >> A 400 amp panel is not an option as the existing 165' of 3" pvc >> underground conduit to the pole currently has 4/0 alum. The utility says >> it would have to be 4" for the new cable and the cost $10K+ for the upgrade. >> >> Other ideas?? >> >> Thanks in advance >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tom at ecs-solar.com Tue Jun 2 16:46:31 2015 From: tom at ecs-solar.com (Tom Lane) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2015 16:46:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Morningstar new battery backup , more comments and opinions Message-ID: <9EF62A5A-D5D1-456F-ADAB-C8F93AA4439B@ecs-solar.com> I would appreciate more opinions and comments on the new Morningstar Controller for Grid connected systems . I developed a simple transfer switch back for this type of application back when Grid Connected systems were 48 volts . This seems like a great idea for high voltage Grid Connected System . Tom Sent from my iPad From sunmountain at netstep.net Tue Jun 2 17:27:36 2015 From: sunmountain at netstep.net (Larry Brown) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2015 17:27:36 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] These Wind Turbines Generate Energy Without any Blades | Digital Trends Message-ID: Wrenches, Does anyone have any comments or knowledge on this new product about to enter the Renewable Energy world? Larry Larry Brown Sun Mountain http://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech/vortex-bladeless-wind-turbine-indiegogo/ From roy at four-winds-energy.com Tue Jun 2 18:11:36 2015 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2015 18:11:36 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] These Wind Turbines Generate Energy Without any Blades | Digital Trends In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <556E2A18.90007@four-winds-energy.com> Larry, Another concept that will likely not pan out. And like most VAWTs, that poor alternator shaft is the Achilles heel. As for further comments, if I proceed with mine, Michael will ban me for life! Roy Butler NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® NYSERDA eligible PV & wind installer Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC 8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807 607-324-9747 www.four-winds-energy.com Don't miss the 11th Annual Small Wind Conference A Gathering of Installers, Manufacturers, Dealers, & Distributors June 15-17, 2015 in Stevens Point, Wisconsin www.smallwindconference.com Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. On 6/2/2015 5:27 PM, Larry Brown wrote: > Wrenches, > > Does anyone have any comments or knowledge on this new product about to enter the Renewable Energy world? > > Larry > > Larry Brown > Sun Mountain > > > http://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech/vortex-bladeless-wind-turbine-indiegogo/ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > From chris at OasisMontana.com Tue Jun 2 17:14:54 2015 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (Chris Daum) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2015 15:14:54 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for two Kyocera KD180GX-LP (or 185s) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi folks: I have a customer looking for a pair to add to her array, and of course these have been discontinued for a while. Anybody got two? Feel free to contact me off list. Sincerely, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 406-777-0830 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nathanjstumpff at gmail.com Wed Jun 3 10:21:57 2015 From: nathanjstumpff at gmail.com (Nathan J. Stumpff) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2015 10:21:57 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Larger single phase inverters Message-ID: Wrenches, We are finding ourselves working on larger and larger single phase projects (50-150 kW.) The largest inverter available from our usual-go-to-manufacturers is 11.4 kW, does anyone know of, have any experience with or would recommend any available larger units? It is of course easy enough to combine the outputs, but we are looking for other options for a cleaner install where appropriate. Many thanks, -Nathan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Wed Jun 3 08:02:58 2015 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2015 08:02:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Morningstar new battery backup , more comments and opinions In-Reply-To: <9EF62A5A-D5D1-456F-ADAB-C8F93AA4439B@ecs-solar.com> References: <9EF62A5A-D5D1-456F-ADAB-C8F93AA4439B@ecs-solar.com> Message-ID: I'm having trouble understanding the application for this product. I have the tristar 600V CC in my own home. If I want to have backup and also export to the grid, the Outback radian does that without the need to change anything over. WHy would you want to have the Radian as a backup AND have a grid tied inverter, and have to change over a manual switch to provide power to the CC? What am I missing? On Tue, Jun 2, 2015 at 4:46 PM, Tom Lane wrote: > I would appreciate more opinions and comments on the new Morningstar > Controller for Grid connected systems . I developed a simple transfer > switch back for this type of application back when Grid Connected systems > were 48 volts . This seems like a great idea for high voltage Grid > Connected System . Tom > > Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Wed Jun 3 10:53:56 2015 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2015 08:53:56 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Morningstar new battery backup , more comments and opinions In-Reply-To: References: <9EF62A5A-D5D1-456F-ADAB-C8F93AA4439B@ecs-solar.com> Message-ID: Hi Chris, I think this would be a product mainly used in existing grid-tied retrofits. If there is an existing grid-tied only inverter, you could route the DC conductors through this transfer switch first giving the homeowner a grid-tied or off-grid option if the grid was down. You'd still need another battery based inverter with an AC transfer switch, critical load panel etc. On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 6:02 AM, Chris Mason wrote: > I'm having trouble understanding the application for this product. I have > the tristar 600V CC in my own home. > If I want to have backup and also export to the grid, the Outback radian > does that without the need to change anything over. WHy would you want to > have the Radian as a backup AND have a grid tied inverter, and have to > change over a manual switch to provide power to the CC? What am I missing? > > On Tue, Jun 2, 2015 at 4:46 PM, Tom Lane wrote: > >> I would appreciate more opinions and comments on the new Morningstar >> Controller for Grid connected systems . I developed a simple transfer >> switch back for this type of application back when Grid Connected systems >> were 48 volts . This seems like a great idea for high voltage Grid >> Connected System . Tom >> >> Sent from my iPad >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > -- > Chris Mason > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Design Engineer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > www.cometsolar.com > 264.235.5670 > 869.662.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From phil at insoltechsolar.com Wed Jun 3 10:54:33 2015 From: phil at insoltechsolar.com (Phil Lawes) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2015 07:54:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Morningstar new battery backup , more comments and opinions In-Reply-To: References: <9EF62A5A-D5D1-456F-ADAB-C8F93AA4439B@ecs-solar.com> Message-ID: <022501d09e0d$33d98040$9b8c80c0$@com> Yes thank you. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Mason Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2015 5:03 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Morningstar new battery backup , more comments and opinions I'm having trouble understanding the application for this product. I have the tristar 600V CC in my own home. If I want to have backup and also export to the grid, the Outback radian does that without the need to change anything over. WHy would you want to have the Radian as a backup AND have a grid tied inverter, and have to change over a manual switch to provide power to the CC? What am I missing? On Tue, Jun 2, 2015 at 4:46 PM, Tom Lane wrote: I would appreciate more opinions and comments on the new Morningstar Controller for Grid connected systems . I developed a simple transfer switch back for this type of application back when Grid Connected systems were 48 volts . This seems like a great idea for high voltage Grid Connected System . Tom Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Wed Jun 3 10:56:52 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2015 08:56:52 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Morningstar new battery backup , more comments and opinions In-Reply-To: References: <9EF62A5A-D5D1-456F-ADAB-C8F93AA4439B@ecs-solar.com> Message-ID: <556F15B4.5040704@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Wed Jun 3 11:58:22 2015 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2015 09:58:22 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] These Wind Turbines Generate Energy Without any Blades | Digital Trends In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sounds like it is still very much in "concept" mode, like "solar paint" or solar roadways. All the best to them in their R&D and i'm sure if they can come up with some positive energy output production numbers, keep durability/reliability issues in check and keep manufacturing costs within reason, then we just may see them on the market sometime down the road..... *Benn Kilburn * CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc 6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7 P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com [image: email] [image: facebook] [image: twitter] [image: linkedin] [image: google] [image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal] On Tue, Jun 2, 2015 at 3:27 PM, Larry Brown wrote: > Wrenches, > > Does anyone have any comments or knowledge on this new product about to > enter the Renewable Energy world? > > Larry > > Larry Brown > Sun Mountain > > > > http://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech/vortex-bladeless-wind-turbine-indiegogo/ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Jun 3 11:03:16 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (william at millersolar.com) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2015 08:03:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Morningstar new battery backup , more comments and opinions In-Reply-To: References: <9EF62A5A-D5D1-456F-ADAB-C8F93AA4439B@ecs-solar.com> Message-ID: <06c201d09e0e$6c00d8f0$44028ad0$@millersolar.com> Chris: The market Morningstar is going for is the customers with non-battery, grid-tie only inverters. If you then add the Morningstar product and a whole lot of other items and a lot of labor, you can have battery backup. If you already have a complete GTBB system, such as you describe in your home, you cannot benefit from this product. I viewed the demo video and I find it disingenuous. The block diagram presented shows a battery bank, a batter inverter and a critical loads sub-panel. The verbal description they offer of this system and interconnection is: “some wiring.” This is a vast understatement in most cases. Adding a sub-panel and segregating loads is major surgery in a majority of homes, not to mention creating a safe storage container for batteries, interconnecting 600VDC PV feeders, AC Feeders, etc., etc. To pre-bias the customer by saying such a project can be completed in one day makes it really hard to present a realistic bid for what can be a pretty significant project. I liken this to the Tesla hoopla about how easy it is to screw a small box to your garage wall and you will have endless power without reliance on the grid. It’s a lot of over-simplification to sell product, and a disservice to the installing community. I’d like to see a response from Morningstar on this point. William Miller From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Mason Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2015 5:03 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Morningstar new battery backup , more comments and opinions I'm having trouble understanding the application for this product. I have the tristar 600V CC in my own home. If I want to have backup and also export to the grid, the Outback radian does that without the need to change anything over. WHy would you want to have the Radian as a backup AND have a grid tied inverter, and have to change over a manual switch to provide power to the CC? What am I missing? On Tue, Jun 2, 2015 at 4:46 PM, Tom Lane wrote: I would appreciate more opinions and comments on the new Morningstar Controller for Grid connected systems . I developed a simple transfer switch back for this type of application back when Grid Connected systems were 48 volts . This seems like a great idea for high voltage Grid Connected System . Tom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Jun 3 11:25:11 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2015 08:25:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Morningstar new battery backup , more comments and opinions In-Reply-To: <556F15B4.5040704@sindelarsolar.com> References: <9EF62A5A-D5D1-456F-ADAB-C8F93AA4439B@ecs-solar.com> <556F15B4.5040704@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <0C64973B-9AD1-4631-A2C4-6D1EA9A9B5F2@gmail.com> Hi all I also question this. Ok so there is a power outage. If I understand correctly it's a manual disco. So now you have be home and know what to do, and you have to remember to turn it back the other way. And it's going to be expensive. Their straight disco one is what $1700? VS. AC coupling which will do it all automatically. Biggest reason I could see is for the small amount of folks with non AC coupling battery back up inverters. I think it's a cool piece of kit, but I don't see it as a big seller. Jay Peltz power. > On Jun 3, 2015, at 7:56 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > > Chris, > My first take on it is that it's been developed for those who already have batteryless GT systems and now want to add backup capability. The Tesla Powerwall has generated plenty of buzz, even though it's still expensive and unavailable, for battery backup. Seems like smart marketing to me, to have a ready solution to allow a relatively simple add-on package, with batteries, battery-based inverter, and controller/transfer switch, that allows the array to recharge the batteries during an outage. The Radian (or Schneider XW) are good approaches for new systems, but there are thousands of batteryless string-inverter systems out there, and this is a key part of an add-on package. Seems to me it beats an AC-coupled add-on package. > Just my $0.02001, as Matt used to write... > Allan > > Allan Sindelar > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > 505 780-2738 cell > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Jun 3 14:17:22 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2015 11:17:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off grid generators In-Reply-To: <06c201d09e0e$6c00d8f0$44028ad0$@millersolar.com> References: <9EF62A5A-D5D1-456F-ADAB-C8F93AA4439B@ecs-solar.com> <06c201d09e0e$6c00d8f0$44028ad0$@millersolar.com> Message-ID: <27DFB2C4-6C01-4852-A9A7-703C06050390@gmail.com> Hi all We've talked about small 6-10kw gensets for off grid. Kohler Onan Generac Who am I missing? Thanks. Jay Peltz power. From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Wed Jun 3 14:43:55 2015 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2015 11:43:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off grid generators Message-ID: Are you focused on LPG/CNG only? If diesel more names to add Kubota, Isuzu, Yanmar, etc. If Gasoline Honda, etc. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of Jay Sent: June 3, 2015 11:17 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off grid generators Hi all We've talked about small 6-10kw gensets for off grid. Kohler Onan Generac Who am I missing? Thanks. Jay Peltz power. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Jun 3 15:56:34 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2015 12:56:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off grid generators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Kevin Yes I'm sorry I didn't include the fuel Propane. Thanks Jay Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 3, 2015, at 11:43 AM, Kevin Pegg wrote: > > Are you focused on LPG/CNG only? If diesel more names to add Kubota, Isuzu, Yanmar, etc. If Gasoline Honda, etc. > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On > Behalf Of Jay > Sent: June 3, 2015 11:17 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off grid generators > > > Hi all > > We've talked about small 6-10kw gensets for off grid. > Kohler > Onan > Generac > > Who am I missing? > Thanks. > Jay > > Peltz power. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From dana at solarwork.com Wed Jun 3 16:18:54 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2015 14:18:54 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generators again Message-ID: <00c201d09e3a$83c56d30$8b504790$@com> I hate to bring this up again I just talked to ONA, KOHLER & another multi generator supplier in ref to generators for off grid application. I have gotten the following mix of responses in reference to 1800 RPM/water cooled LPG generators: "That's only available if its back up with the utility present" "That unit is available but if it's off grid then its prime power & no warranty" "That unit is limited to less than 100 hours per year" "That unit is available with unlimited hours but no weather enclosure" & last & moist common "We only have a 3600 RPM air cooled for off grid." One supplier says diesel is excluded and another says with all certainty that gas is excluded and it only applies to diesel. Does anyone have an explanation and or a supplier for a 1800 RPM water cooled 10-15 KW LPG generator? Thank you all in advance. (Headed into the field for a couple of hours.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sbell at morningstarcorp.com Wed Jun 3 16:41:49 2015 From: sbell at morningstarcorp.com (Steve Bell) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2015 14:41:49 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Morningstar new battery backup , more comments and opinions In-Reply-To: <06c201d09e0e$6c00d8f0$44028ad0$@millersolar.com> References: <9EF62A5A-D5D1-456F-ADAB-C8F93AA4439B@ecs-solar.com> <06c201d09e0e$6c00d8f0$44028ad0$@millersolar.com> Message-ID: Hello William, I had not seen the video prior to your posting. I totally agree that a one day install of a complete battery back-up retro-fit is completely unrealistic. Perhaps 4 to 7 days, depending on the complexity and size of the retro-fit. Yes, one day might suffice to install and wire just the TS-MPPT-600-TR, but creating a sub-panel, installing and wiring the battery-based inverter and the battery bank will require significantly more time. I have spoken with our marketing department, and they will be addressing this misrepresentation. I believe all our printed literature for the TS-MPPT-600 is accurate and does not contain any misrepresentations. I am sorry for the unrealistic expectation that the video currently creates. Unrealistic expectations are never good for the industry. Respectfully, Steve Bell Technical Support Morningstar Corporation sbell at morningstarcorp.com www.morningstarcorp.com On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 9:03 AM, wrote: > Chris: > > > > The market Morningstar is going for is the customers with non-battery, > grid-tie only inverters. If you then add the Morningstar product and a > whole lot of other items and a lot of labor, you can have battery backup. > If you already have a complete GTBB system, such as you describe in your > home, you cannot benefit from this product. > > > > I viewed the demo video and I find it disingenuous. The block diagram > presented shows a battery bank, a batter inverter and a critical loads > sub-panel. The verbal description they offer of this system and > interconnection is: “some wiring.” This is a vast understatement in most > cases. Adding a sub-panel and segregating loads is major surgery in a > majority of homes, not to mention creating a safe storage container for > batteries, interconnecting 600VDC PV feeders, AC Feeders, etc., etc. To > pre-bias the customer by saying such a project can be completed in one day > makes it really hard to present a realistic bid for what can be a pretty > significant project. I liken this to the Tesla hoopla about how easy it is > to screw a small box to your garage wall and you will have endless power > without reliance on the grid. It’s a lot of over-simplification to sell > product, and a disservice to the installing community. > > > > I’d like to see a response from Morningstar on this point. > > > > William Miller > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Chris Mason > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 03, 2015 5:03 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Morningstar new battery backup , more > comments and opinions > > > > I'm having trouble understanding the application for this product. I have > the tristar 600V CC in my own home. > > If I want to have backup and also export to the grid, the Outback radian > does that without the need to change anything over. WHy would you want to > have the Radian as a backup AND have a grid tied inverter, and have to > change over a manual switch to provide power to the CC? What am I missing? > > > > On Tue, Jun 2, 2015 at 4:46 PM, Tom Lane wrote: > > I would appreciate more opinions and comments on the new Morningstar > Controller for Grid connected systems . I developed a simple transfer > switch back for this type of application back when Grid Connected systems > were 48 volts . This seems like a great idea for high voltage Grid > Connected System . Tom > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Jun 3 17:05:16 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (william at millersolar.com) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2015 14:05:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generators again In-Reply-To: <00c201d09e3a$83c56d30$8b504790$@com> References: <00c201d09e3a$83c56d30$8b504790$@com> Message-ID: <055501d09e40$fe2aae90$fa800bb0$@millersolar.com> Dana: Our local Kohler dealer has taken a liberal interpretation of the warranty provisions. As long as: the battery-inverter system is robust, we keep the generator hours at a minimum, purchase a startup checkup with their technician and verify proper maintenance, the dealer is honoring warranty claims. In other words, with the right dealer and the right circumstances, I think this point is negotiable. William Miller From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dana Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2015 1:19 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generators again I hate to bring this up again I just talked to ONA, KOHLER & another multi generator supplier in ref to generators for off grid application. I have gotten the following mix of responses in reference to 1800 RPM/water cooled LPG generators: "That's only available if its back up with the utility present" "That unit is available but if it's off grid then its prime power & no warranty" "That unit is limited to less than 100 hours per year" "That unit is available with unlimited hours but no weather enclosure" & last & moist common "We only have a 3600 RPM air cooled for off grid." One supplier says diesel is excluded and another says with all certainty that gas is excluded and it only applies to diesel. Does anyone have an explanation and or a supplier for a 1800 RPM water cooled 10-15 KW LPG generator? Thank you all in advance. (Headed into the field for a couple of hours.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Jun 3 17:05:16 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (william at millersolar.com) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2015 14:05:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Morningstar new battery backup , more comments and opinions In-Reply-To: References: <9EF62A5A-D5D1-456F-ADAB-C8F93AA4439B@ecs-solar.com> <06c201d09e0e$6c00d8f0$44028ad0$@millersolar.com> Message-ID: <053901d09e40$fde2f730$f9a8e590$@millersolar.com> Steve: Thank you for your very gracious and professional reply. Maybe we can chalk this one up to over-excited, under-informed marketing people. I guess it’s common. I appreciate you schooling them and being willing to modify the message. I am impressed by your candor. Sincerely, William Miller PS: Battery storage has developed quite a buzz lately and I fear there is a dearth of experience on the subject amongst manufacturers. I lunched recently with representatives for a major inverter manufacturer. They indicated they were developing a new battery-less inverter featuring a “plug and play” battery upgrade. They indicated they would be marketing this is an “easy” upgrade from battery-less to battery backup. I told them this transition was not as simple as they described it. This is the same scenario as we are discussing. WM From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Steve Bell Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2015 1:42 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Morningstar new battery backup , more comments and opinions Hello William, I had not seen the video prior to your posting. I totally agree that a one day install of a complete battery back-up retro-fit is completely unrealistic. Perhaps 4 to 7 days, depending on the complexity and size of the retro-fit. Yes, one day might suffice to install and wire just the TS-MPPT-600-TR, but creating a sub-panel, installing and wiring the battery-based inverter and the battery bank will require significantly more time. I have spoken with our marketing department, and they will be addressing this misrepresentation. I believe all our printed literature for the TS-MPPT-600 is accurate and does not contain any misrepresentations. I am sorry for the unrealistic expectation that the video currently creates. Unrealistic expectations are never good for the industry. Respectfully, Steve Bell Technical Support Morningstar Corporation sbell at morningstarcorp.com www.morningstarcorp.com On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 9:03 AM, wrote: Chris: The market Morningstar is going for is the customers with non-battery, grid-tie only inverters. If you then add the Morningstar product and a whole lot of other items and a lot of labor, you can have battery backup. If you already have a complete GTBB system, such as you describe in your home, you cannot benefit from this product. I viewed the demo video and I find it disingenuous. The block diagram presented shows a battery bank, a batter inverter and a critical loads sub-panel. The verbal description they offer of this system and interconnection is: “some wiring.” This is a vast understatement in most cases. Adding a sub-panel and segregating loads is major surgery in a majority of homes, not to mention creating a safe storage container for batteries, interconnecting 600VDC PV feeders, AC Feeders, etc., etc. To pre-bias the customer by saying such a project can be completed in one day makes it really hard to present a realistic bid for what can be a pretty significant project. I liken this to the Tesla hoopla about how easy it is to screw a small box to your garage wall and you will have endless power without reliance on the grid. It’s a lot of over-simplification to sell product, and a disservice to the installing community. I’d like to see a response from Morningstar on this point. William Miller From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Mason Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2015 5:03 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Morningstar new battery backup , more comments and opinions I'm having trouble understanding the application for this product. I have the tristar 600V CC in my own home. If I want to have backup and also export to the grid, the Outback radian does that without the need to change anything over. WHy would you want to have the Radian as a backup AND have a grid tied inverter, and have to change over a manual switch to provide power to the CC? What am I missing? On Tue, Jun 2, 2015 at 4:46 PM, Tom Lane wrote: I would appreciate more opinions and comments on the new Morningstar Controller for Grid connected systems . I developed a simple transfer switch back for this type of application back when Grid Connected systems were 48 volts . This seems like a great idea for high voltage Grid Connected System . Tom _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed Jun 3 17:16:38 2015 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2015 14:16:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Morningstar new battery backup , more comments and opinions In-Reply-To: References: <9EF62A5A-D5D1-456F-ADAB-C8F93AA4439B@ecs-solar.com> <06c201d09e0e$6c00d8f0$44028ad0$@millersolar.com> Message-ID: All – On a related note to the one-day battery backup install, you may have seen Solarcity’s description of their battery backup offering. They are keeping the critical loads and scope very limited: http://www.solarcity.com/residential/backup-power-supply SolarCity will provide backup power for up to four (4) electrical circuits rated at 120 VAC and up to 20 amps each. The battery backup system can power up to 1,900 watts of backup loads at any given time. Typical backup loads include refrigerators and other kitchen equipment, lights, outlets that power computers, phones and Internet routers, and home security systems. We will never offer backup to circuits greater than 20 amps including most pool pumps, well pumps, electric heaters, electric water heaters, air conditioners, and hot tubs. Eligible loads must be located in the same electrical panel being used to connect your solar PV system at the time we install. If we cannot provide backup power to the four (4) 20 amp, 120 VAC circuits that you request due to access or electrical constraints, you may cancel your battery backup installation at no cost to you. Financing terms vary by location and are not available in all areas. For Lease and PPA backup battery customers, $1,000 deposit due upon contract signing. Balance of $4,000, exclusive of taxes and fees, due upon installation. Taxes and fees vary by location. SolarCity Corporation will repair or replace broken warranted components. Best, August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Steve Bell *Sent:* Wednesday, June 03, 2015 1:42 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Morningstar new battery backup , more comments and opinions Hello William, I had not seen the video prior to your posting. I totally agree that a one day install of a complete battery back-up retro-fit is completely unrealistic. Perhaps 4 to 7 days, depending on the complexity and size of the retro-fit. Yes, one day might suffice to install and wire just the TS-MPPT-600-TR, but creating a sub-panel, installing and wiring the battery-based inverter and the battery bank will require significantly more time. I have spoken with our marketing department, and they will be addressing this misrepresentation. I believe all our printed literature for the TS-MPPT-600 is accurate and does not contain any misrepresentations. I am sorry for the unrealistic expectation that the video currently creates. Unrealistic expectations are never good for the industry. Respectfully, Steve Bell Technical Support Morningstar Corporation sbell at morningstarcorp.com www.morningstarcorp.com On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 9:03 AM, wrote: Chris: The market Morningstar is going for is the customers with non-battery, grid-tie only inverters. If you then add the Morningstar product and a whole lot of other items and a lot of labor, you can have battery backup. If you already have a complete GTBB system, such as you describe in your home, you cannot benefit from this product. I viewed the demo video and I find it disingenuous. The block diagram presented shows a battery bank, a batter inverter and a critical loads sub-panel. The verbal description they offer of this system and interconnection is: “some wiring.” This is a vast understatement in most cases. Adding a sub-panel and segregating loads is major surgery in a majority of homes, not to mention creating a safe storage container for batteries, interconnecting 600VDC PV feeders, AC Feeders, etc., etc. To pre-bias the customer by saying such a project can be completed in one day makes it really hard to present a realistic bid for what can be a pretty significant project. I liken this to the Tesla hoopla about how easy it is to screw a small box to your garage wall and you will have endless power without reliance on the grid. It’s a lot of over-simplification to sell product, and a disservice to the installing community. I’d like to see a response from Morningstar on this point. William Miller *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Chris Mason *Sent:* Wednesday, June 03, 2015 5:03 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Morningstar new battery backup , more comments and opinions I'm having trouble understanding the application for this product. I have the tristar 600V CC in my own home. If I want to have backup and also export to the grid, the Outback radian does that without the need to change anything over. WHy would you want to have the Radian as a backup AND have a grid tied inverter, and have to change over a manual switch to provide power to the CC? What am I missing? On Tue, Jun 2, 2015 at 4:46 PM, Tom Lane wrote: I would appreciate more opinions and comments on the new Morningstar Controller for Grid connected systems . I developed a simple transfer switch back for this type of application back when Grid Connected systems were 48 volts . This seems like a great idea for high voltage Grid Connected System . Tom _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bill at berkssolar.com Wed Jun 3 21:26:36 2015 From: bill at berkssolar.com (Bill Hennessy) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 01:26:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Morningstar new battery backup , more comments and opinions In-Reply-To: <9EF62A5A-D5D1-456F-ADAB-C8F93AA4439B@ecs-solar.com> References: <9EF62A5A-D5D1-456F-ADAB-C8F93AA4439B@ecs-solar.com> Message-ID: <740807105.2400245.1433381196160.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> We've been using ac coupling with Magnum's when adding backup to a grid-tied system. The switchover is automatic and fast. With the Magnums, there is need for a charge controller, but the installation and wiring does take more than a day (meow). Why would anyone want a manual transfer switch for backup? If you are gone and the power fails, it would be nice to know the sump pump will continue to work, the freezer will run and the heating system will keep the pipes from freezing.  Bill Hennessy Berks Solar, LLC 371 Centennial Rd Mertztown, PA 19539 o 610 682 4300 c 484 560 4666 NABCEP certified installer PA contractor #44411 www.berkssolar.com From: Tom Lane To: "re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org" Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2015 4:46 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Morningstar new battery backup , more comments and opinions I would appreciate more opinions and comments on the new Morningstar Controller for Grid connected systems .  I developed a simple transfer switch back for this type of application back when Grid Connected systems were 48 volts . This seems like a great idea for high voltage Grid Connected System . Tom Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Wed Jun 3 23:56:08 2015 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2015 22:56:08 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PVWatts Message-ID: Anyone else notice that the PVWatts website is not working or do i have a personal (computer) problem. I sent feedback to no avail and there is nothing on their twitter account about an issue. When i enter a location, it tells me to enter a different location and says that it's loading the map, but never does. -- Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installer Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Gary at IcarusSolarServices.com Thu Jun 4 00:02:09 2015 From: Gary at IcarusSolarServices.com (Gary Willett) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2015 23:02:09 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PVWatts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You're not alone. I tried several times today and it's not working for me either. I sent a Tweet on #PVWATTS but no response there either. Gary Willett Icarus Engineering LLC Sent from my iPhone 5s > On Jun 3, 2015, at 10:56 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: > > Anyone else notice that the PVWatts website is not working or do i have a personal (computer) problem. I sent feedback to no avail and there is nothing on their twitter account about an issue. When i enter a location, it tells me to enter a different location and says that it's loading the map, but never does. > > -- > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 864 Clam Falls Trail > Frederic, WI 54837 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Thu Jun 4 00:06:39 2015 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2015 23:06:39 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PVWatts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <66CEF939-CAB8-4E7F-875A-BEDAE0847272@solarenergy.org> Same deal, multiple computers and browsers, no luck, and no reply to an email about it either. Brian > On Jun 3, 2015, at 11:02 PM, Gary Willett wrote: > > You're not alone. I tried several times today and it's not working for me either. I sent a Tweet on #PVWATTS but no response there either. > > Gary Willett > Icarus Engineering LLC > > Sent from my iPhone 5s > >> On Jun 3, 2015, at 10:56 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: >> >> Anyone else notice that the PVWatts website is not working or do i have a personal (computer) problem. I sent feedback to no avail and there is nothing on their twitter account about an issue. When i enter a location, it tells me to enter a different location and says that it's loading the map, but never does. >> >> -- >> Shine On! >> >> Kris Schmid >> Legacy Solar, LLC >> 864 Clam Falls Trail >> Frederic, WI 54837 >> www.legacysolar.com >> 715-653-4295 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installer >> Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician >> BSEE >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 00:20:21 2015 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2015 22:20:21 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PVWatts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Location intrergation is not working for me either. I hope they get the API fixed before start of my class next monday, it's the focus of my classes next week. Dan Fink Buckville Energy IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 10:02 PM, Gary Willett wrote: > You're not alone. I tried several times today and it's not working for me > either. I sent a Tweet on #PVWATTS but no response there either. > > Gary Willett > Icarus Engineering LLC > > Sent from my iPhone 5s > > On Jun 3, 2015, at 10:56 PM, Kristopher Schmid > wrote: > > Anyone else notice that the PVWatts website is not working or do i have a > personal (computer) problem. I sent feedback to no avail and there is > nothing on their twitter account about an issue. When i enter a location, > it tells me to enter a different location and says that it's loading the > map, but never does. > > -- > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 864 Clam Falls Trail > Frederic, WI 54837 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Randy at BrooksSolar.com Thu Jun 4 00:25:27 2015 From: Randy at BrooksSolar.com (Randy Brooks) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2015 21:25:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PVWatts In-Reply-To: <66CEF939-CAB8-4E7F-875A-BEDAE0847272@solarenergy.org> References: <66CEF939-CAB8-4E7F-875A-BEDAE0847272@solarenergy.org> Message-ID: <3C34A9D4-6817-4340-B5CB-9EF6C7F75DB5@BrooksSolar.com> The new version just worked for me. Maybe they fixed it. I liked v1 but it looks like it’s history now. My bookmark goes only to the new version, which seems fine. I use a MacBook Pro (OS X 10.10.3, and Safari 8.0.6). Randy > On Jun 3, 2015, at 9:06 PM, Brian Mehalic wrote: > > Same deal, multiple computers and browsers, no luck, and no reply to an email about it either. > > Brian > > On Jun 3, 2015, at 11:02 PM, Gary Willett > wrote: > >> You're not alone. I tried several times today and it's not working for me either. I sent a Tweet on #PVWATTS but no response there either. >> >> Gary Willett >> Icarus Engineering LLC >> >> Sent from my iPhone 5s >> >> On Jun 3, 2015, at 10:56 PM, Kristopher Schmid > wrote: >> >>> Anyone else notice that the PVWatts website is not working or do i have a personal (computer) problem. I sent feedback to no avail and there is nothing on their twitter account about an issue. When i enter a location, it tells me to enter a different location and says that it's loading the map, but never does. >>> >>> -- >>> Shine On! >>> >>> Kris Schmid >>> Legacy Solar, LLC >>> 864 Clam Falls Trail >>> Frederic, WI 54837 >>> www.legacysolar.com >>> 715-653-4295 >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installer >>> Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician >>> BSEE >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Jun 4 00:45:10 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2015 22:45:10 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Voltage Degradation with Uni-Solar laminate In-Reply-To: References: <556B5365.7030703@solarray.com> Message-ID: <556FD7D6.80600@solarray.com> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/02/140213122404.htm http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy12osti/51664.pdf go to the conclusion on page 18. Thanks, R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 6/1/2015 5:46 PM, jay peltz wrote: > HI Ray, > > Can you tell me/us where you have your data on the a-Si having higher > voltage degradation over time? > > thanks > jay > > > > On Sun, May 31, 2015 at 11:31 AM, Ray Walters > wrote: > > Yes, amorphous modules degrade faster then crystalline cells. 15 > years will really start catching up with you, that's why we always > tried to stick to monocrystalline when we could. > I think your best option for now is to rewire the array for much > higher voltage. Even your current voltage problem aside, the > system will run more efficiently at higher voltage: Less current > = less voltage drop. I would probably just jump the 4 module sets > in series in the combiner box to 8 in series. Should be a quick > fix, and really show an improvement. I've seen this same issue > with low voltage polys and undersized wiring. Usually the MPP > controllers like some room to play with; as soon as the MPP > voltage gets close to or less than battery voltage, the current > drops off substantially. > > > > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > > Jay Peltz > Peltz Power > jay.peltz at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solar1online at charter.net Thu Jun 4 06:03:44 2015 From: solar1online at charter.net (Bill Loesch) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2015 05:03:44 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Voltage Degradation with Uni-Solar laminate In-Reply-To: <556FD7D6.80600@solarray.com> References: <556B5365.7030703@solarray.com> <556FD7D6.80600@solarray.com> Message-ID: <55702280.800@charter.net> Some interesting results: ie. High altitude BIPV suffers reduced degradation because of minimal snow loading. (I assume because of less flexing of the substrate?) Array degradation was often listed as twice the module degradation. Offering a challenge to make the installation better? I left those Ivory Towers d.b.a. failure analysis to avoid sitting at a desk but still find a fascination in their results. Thanks, Ray, Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 On 03-Jun-15 11:45 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/02/140213122404.htm > http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy12osti/51664.pdf > go to the conclusion on page 18. > > Thanks, > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > On 6/1/2015 5:46 PM, jay peltz wrote: >> HI Ray, >> >> Can you tell me/us where you have your data on the a-Si having higher >> voltage degradation over time? >> >> thanks >> jay >> >> >> >> On Sun, May 31, 2015 at 11:31 AM, Ray Walters > > wrote: >> >> Yes, amorphous modules degrade faster then crystalline cells. 15 >> years will really start catching up with you, that's why we >> always tried to stick to monocrystalline when we could. >> I think your best option for now is to rewire the array for much >> higher voltage. Even your current voltage problem aside, the >> system will run more efficiently at higher voltage: Less current >> = less voltage drop. I would probably just jump the 4 module >> sets in series in the combiner box to 8 in series. Should be a >> quick fix, and really show an improvement. I've seen this same >> issue with low voltage polys and undersized wiring. Usually the >> MPP controllers like some room to play with; as soon as the MPP >> voltage gets close to or less than battery voltage, the current >> drops off substantially. >> >> >> >> >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> >> >> Jay Peltz >> Peltz Power >> jay.peltz at gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2015.0.5961 / Virus Database: 4355/9940 - Release Date: 06/04/15 > ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5961 / Virus Database: 4355/9940 - Release Date: 06/04/15 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jun 4 08:55:01 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 08:55:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PVWatts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Clear your browser cache and cookies. I had the same problem and resolved it by doing this. Jason On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 12:20 AM, Dan Fink wrote: > Location intrergation is not working for me either. I hope they get the > API fixed before start of my class next monday, it's the focus of my > classes next week. > > Dan Fink > Buckville Energy > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > > On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 10:02 PM, Gary Willett < > Gary at icarussolarservices.com> wrote: > >> You're not alone. I tried several times today and it's not working for me >> either. I sent a Tweet on #PVWATTS but no response there either. >> >> Gary Willett >> Icarus Engineering LLC >> >> Sent from my iPhone 5s >> >> On Jun 3, 2015, at 10:56 PM, Kristopher Schmid >> wrote: >> >> Anyone else notice that the PVWatts website is not working or do i have a >> personal (computer) problem. I sent feedback to no avail and there is >> nothing on their twitter account about an issue. When i enter a location, >> it tells me to enter a different location and says that it's loading the >> map, but never does. >> >> -- >> Shine On! >> >> Kris Schmid >> Legacy Solar, LLC >> 864 Clam Falls Trail >> Frederic, WI 54837 >> www.legacysolar.com >> 715-653-4295 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installer >> Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician >> BSEE >> >> _________________ >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From garrison at solarserviceinc.com Thu Jun 4 14:03:19 2015 From: garrison at solarserviceinc.com (Garrison Riegel) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 13:03:19 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Integrating with Lightning Protection Message-ID: <008001d09ef0$bd6be990$3843bcb0$@solarserviceinc.com> Wrenches, Does anyone have any best practice recommendations (or books, articles, etc) for integrating a roof mounted PV system with a lightning protection system? Bare #6 copper and a split bolt to the braided copper connecting air terminals? At both ends of the array? Or should we not bond these systems on the roof? Opinions on a 2009 Wrenches thread varied, but I've heard it from a few sources that these should be bonded directly. Wondering if there is a general consensus at this point? Or strong opinions one way or the other? Thanks for your thoughts. Garrison Riegel PV Operations Manager | Solar Service Inc [p] 847-677-0950 | garrison at solarserviceinc.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalT -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarworks at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 14:11:46 2015 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal Khalsa) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 11:11:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] #2 -#8 AWG Crimpers Message-ID: Greetings wrenches. ....we would like to vet a good quality crimper for crimping copper ring terminals to our mid range wire sizes....Any of you have a good quality crimping tool you can recommend. ...wire sizes I am looking to crimp are #2-#8 AWG..... Thanks in advance! Kirpal Khalsa Oregon Solarworks -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Jun 4 14:37:55 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2015 12:37:55 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Integrating with Lightning Protection In-Reply-To: <008001d09ef0$bd6be990$3843bcb0$@solarserviceinc.com> References: <008001d09ef0$bd6be990$3843bcb0$@solarserviceinc.com> Message-ID: <55709B03.8080701@solarray.com> I think an important point, is not to connect to their system in more than one place. You don't want to create any loops that would pick up the induced current from a lightning strike. We've bonded to the lightning rod systems at their attachment to ground. The idea being that if their system takes a strike, you wouldn't want any of that current taking a parallel path through the solar equipment to ground. The opposite argument is that you don't want large potential voltages between the array and their lightning rods in a strike. I don't subscribe to this though, and think that limiting current flow through the equipment and then using Midnite surge suppressors to bleed voltage to ground is better. Its difficult to test these theories though, so it begins to fall almost into the realm of religion. None of us completely understand lightning. Either way, I highly recommend bonding the grounding system to a steel cased well and/or the rebar in the foundation (Ufer ground) The lower the impedance of the actual grounding electrode system, the better: that we can all agree on. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 6/4/2015 12:03 PM, Garrison Riegel wrote: > > Wrenches, > > Does anyone have any best practice recommendations (or books, > articles, etc) for integrating a roof mounted PV system with a > lightning protection system? Bare #6 copper and a split bolt to the > braided copper connecting air terminals? At both ends of the array? > > Or should we not bond these systems on the roof? Opinions on a 2009 > Wrenches thread varied, but I’ve heard it from a few sources that > these should be bonded directly. Wondering if there is a general > consensus at this point? Or strong opinions one way or the other? > > Thanks for your thoughts. > > Garrison Riegel > > PV Operations Manager | /Solar Service Inc/ > > > [p] 847-677-0950 | garrison at solarserviceinc.com > > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professionalâ„¢ > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Thu Jun 4 15:01:52 2015 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 14:01:52 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Integrating with Lightning Protection In-Reply-To: <008001d09ef0$bd6be990$3843bcb0$@solarserviceinc.com> References: <008001d09ef0$bd6be990$3843bcb0$@solarserviceinc.com> Message-ID: <473FBC74-9AF2-4E9C-A76F-CFE2B86E06EA@solarenergy.org> DEHN has some great resources for various types of PV systems, and a chapter on it in their free lightning protection guide. Haven't looked in a while but seemed like great info. Brian > On Jun 4, 2015, at 1:03 PM, Garrison Riegel wrote: > > Wrenches, > > Does anyone have any best practice recommendations (or books, articles, etc) for integrating a roof mounted PV system with a lightning protection system? Bare #6 copper and a split bolt to the braided copper connecting air terminals? At both ends of the array? > > Or should we not bond these systems on the roof? Opinions on a 2009 Wrenches thread varied, but I’ve heard it from a few sources that these should be bonded directly. Wondering if there is a general consensus at this point? Or strong opinions one way or the other? > > Thanks for your thoughts. > > Garrison Riegel > PV Operations Manager | Solar Service Inc > [p] 847-677-0950 | garrison at solarserviceinc.com > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 15:26:43 2015 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 13:26:43 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] #2 -#8 AWG Crimpers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <741E041E-8D62-42C4-BFC3-9CA3175462D2@gmail.com> Hi Khirpa, We use a high quality mini hex crimper with rotatable dies for #8-1/0 AWG. It is basically a miniature version of the Hex-Crimp battery lug crimper sold by Quick Cable. The one I have is older and no longer has the manufacturer label, but I believe it was marketed as a Cub Crimper. A quick web search shows that there is still a similar crimper sold under that name. At any rate, I have been very pleased with this crimper, and I'd recommend it. Best, -Luke On Jun 4, 2015, at 12:11 PM, Kirpal Khalsa wrote: > Greetings wrenches. ....we would like to vet a good quality crimper for crimping copper ring terminals to our mid range wire sizes....Any of you have a good quality crimping tool you can recommend. ...wire sizes I am looking to crimp are #2-#8 AWG..... > Thanks in advance! > Kirpal Khalsa > Oregon Solarworks > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > Luke Christy NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 CoSEIA Certified PV Installer Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO. 81144 SGSRenewables at Gmail.com 719.588.3044 www.sgsrenewables.com From dana at solarwork.com Thu Jun 4 14:12:45 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 12:12:45 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Integrating with Lightning Protection In-Reply-To: <008001d09ef0$bd6be990$3843bcb0$@solarserviceinc.com> References: <008001d09ef0$bd6be990$3843bcb0$@solarserviceinc.com> Message-ID: <01b901d09ef2$0f49bf70$2ddd3e50$@com> Depending on your lightning rat of incidence would determine what would work best. I have used Heary Brothers in NY for almost 20 years now check their website out. They have a device that is called an "early stream emission device" that comes with a lifetime $10 million guarantee policy that you will not take a direct strike. This does not cover surge protection just direct strikes. I have clients at 10,000 ft el that have been in their house with multiple strikes radiating around the house many times and never in 18 years take a strike. The MCG surge systems prevented anything coming in to the house. www.hearybros.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Garrison Riegel Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2015 12:03 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] Integrating with Lightning Protection Wrenches, Does anyone have any best practice recommendations (or books, articles, etc) for integrating a roof mounted PV system with a lightning protection system? Bare #6 copper and a split bolt to the braided copper connecting air terminals? At both ends of the array? Or should we not bond these systems on the roof? Opinions on a 2009 Wrenches thread varied, but I've heard it from a few sources that these should be bonded directly. Wondering if there is a general consensus at this point? Or strong opinions one way or the other? Thanks for your thoughts. Garrison Riegel PV Operations Manager | Solar Service Inc [p] 847-677-0950 | garrison at solarserviceinc.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalT -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 15:13:40 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 12:13:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] #2 -#8 AWG Crimpers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5C01A89F-7D08-42C0-B824-925E41830D06@gmail.com> Have you checked Del City? Jay Peltz power > On Jun 4, 2015, at 11:11 AM, Kirpal Khalsa wrote: > > Greetings wrenches. ....we would like to vet a good quality crimper for crimping copper ring terminals to our mid range wire sizes....Any of you have a good quality crimping tool you can recommend. ...wire sizes I am looking to crimp are #2-#8 AWG..... > Thanks in advance! > Kirpal Khalsa > Oregon Solarworks > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Thu Jun 4 15:35:22 2015 From: Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com (Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 15:35:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Integrating with Lightning Protection In-Reply-To: <473FBC74-9AF2-4E9C-A76F-CFE2B86E06EA@solarenergy.org> References: <008001d09ef0$bd6be990$3843bcb0$@solarserviceinc.com> <473FBC74-9AF2-4E9C-A76F-CFE2B86E06EA@solarenergy.org> Message-ID: Hi: I really like the very thorough lightning protection guide they have available for download. Here's the link http://www.dehn-international.com/sites/default/files/uploads/dehn/pdf/blitzplaner/bpl2015/lpg_2015_e_complete.pdf Thanks for the referral Brian. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Brian Mehalic To: RE-wrenches , Date: 06/04/2015 12:02 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Integrating with Lightning Protection Sent by: "RE-wrenches" DEHN has some great resources for various types of PV systems, and a chapter on it in their free lightning protection guide. Haven't looked in a while but seemed like great info. Brian On Jun 4, 2015, at 1:03 PM, Garrison Riegel wrote: Wrenches, Does anyone have any best practice recommendations (or books, articles, etc) for integrating a roof mounted PV system with a lightning protection system? Bare #6 copper and a split bolt to the braided copper connecting air terminals? At both ends of the array? Or should we not bond these systems on the roof? Opinions on a 2009 Wrenches thread varied, but I’ve heard it from a few sources that these should be bonded directly. Wondering if there is a general consensus at this point? Or strong opinions one way or the other? Thanks for your thoughts. Garrison Riegel PV Operations Manager | Solar Service Inc [p] 847-677-0950 | garrison at solarserviceinc.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 15:50:32 2015 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 13:50:32 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] #2 -#8 AWG Crimpers In-Reply-To: <5C01A89F-7D08-42C0-B824-925E41830D06@gmail.com> References: <5C01A89F-7D08-42C0-B824-925E41830D06@gmail.com> Message-ID: <68088F78-245B-4AB4-B119-0330BFD50CCB@gmail.com> Jay, I haven't checked there in a while but I just took a look. The crimper I'm talking about is identical to the Junior Crimper sold by Del City. -Luke On Jun 4, 2015, at 1:13 PM, Jay wrote: > Have you checked Del City? > > Jay > Peltz power > > > Luke Christy NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 CoSEIA Certified PV Installer Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO. 81144 SGSRenewables at Gmail.com 719.588.3044 www.sgsrenewables.com From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Thu Jun 4 16:46:02 2015 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 16:46:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Integrating with Lightning Protection In-Reply-To: <008001d09ef0$bd6be990$3843bcb0$@solarserviceinc.com> References: <008001d09ef0$bd6be990$3843bcb0$@solarserviceinc.com> Message-ID: <20150604204613.A004010C43@che.dreamhost.com> Have you looked at NFPA 780-2011, standard for the installation of lightning protection systems as mentioned in 250.106? I recently read somewhere else that any conductive material in contact with or in the vicinity of a LPS has a negative effect on the designed efficiency of the LPS, but have not investigated further. Sincerely, Glenn Burt Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. -----Original Message----- From: "Garrison Riegel" Sent: ‎6/‎4/‎2015 14:03 To: "'RE-wrenches'" Subject: [RE-wrenches] Integrating with Lightning Protection Wrenches, Does anyone have any best practice recommendations (or books, articles, etc) for integrating a roof mounted PV system with a lightning protection system? Bare #6 copper and a split bolt to the braided copper connecting air terminals? At both ends of the array? Or should we not bond these systems on the roof? Opinions on a 2009 Wrenches thread varied, but I've heard it from a few sources that these should be bonded directly. Wondering if there is a general consensus at this point? Or strong opinions one way or the other? Thanks for your thoughts. Garrison Riegel PV Operations Manager | Solar Service Inc [p] 847-677-0950 | garrison at solarserviceinc.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalT -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mick at abrahamsolar.com Thu Jun 4 18:36:24 2015 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 16:36:24 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] #2 -#8 AWG Crimpers Message-ID: Kirpal asked about a lug crimp tool in the smaller sizes. I like my ILSCO ILC-10-N since it can be squozed with one hand especially in #6 heavy lugs or smaller. Hold things in position with one hand & squoze with the other. The handles are cushioned; tool length is about one foot long tip to tip; it's a "controlled cycle" on the crimp but there's also an easy release trigger in case the die was not rotated to the ideal position for the particular lug in use. Controlled cycle is nice even if one must switch to double handing the levers because by then the lug is slightly squozed and held in place by the spring mechanism. The swage is sort of a rhomboid after crimping...instead of a hex crimp as the finished product, for instance. There are two different dies...interchangeable...but I almost never put the bigger one in place. The smaller die rotates to four positions...labeled for #8, #6, #4, & #2. The bigger lug says that's for #1 & for #0 but it's a two handed operation in those bigger sizes so I tend to reach for my bigger Quick-Cable crunchers instead. I think this tool was a bit spendy but it's never failed and I bought it so long ago that I can't remember what I paid. Lesson there, right? I actually lost the bigger die for awhile and ILSCO was unwilling to sell me a replacement...but then >hey< I found the lost child and the hairpin retaining clip has kept it from wandering again. I trust this will be helpful, Friend Khalsa. Crimp On! The Wrench List is the Bomb! Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Voice: 970-731-4675 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarworks at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 19:42:31 2015 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal Khalsa) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 16:42:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] #2 -#8 AWG Crimpers In-Reply-To: <741E041E-8D62-42C4-BFC3-9CA3175462D2@gmail.com> References: <741E041E-8D62-42C4-BFC3-9CA3175462D2@gmail.com> Message-ID: Luke, Mick Jay.....Thank you for the feedback..I just ordered a set of the cub crimpers...I think it is going to be a useful addition to our tool chest. What prompted this is that we often solder our ring terminals on but it tends to stiffen the copper wire.....We use alot of the Midnite panel mount breakers and the 300VDC breakers still have the really chincy terminal posts which break off with just the slightest twisting of the wire....Over the years Outback Power also used those breakers and we have piles of those brand new crappy breakers which have a broken terminal post....I noted some of the single pole panel mount breakers have a sturdier terminal post and this problem is going away....I am hoping this can happen for all the panel mount breakers these manufacturers sell. Made me realize a high quality crimp without the stiffening of the wire will help reduce this problem. Those breakers are expensive! Thanks for the advice!! Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-218-0201 m 541-299-0402 o On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 12:26 PM, Luke Christy wrote: > Hi Khirpa, > We use a high quality mini hex crimper with rotatable dies for #8-1/0 AWG. > It is basically a miniature version of the Hex-Crimp battery lug crimper > sold by Quick Cable. The one I have is older and no longer has the > manufacturer label, but I believe it was marketed as a Cub Crimper. A quick > web search shows that there is still a similar crimper sold under that > name. At any rate, I have been very pleased with this crimper, and I'd > recommend it. > > Best, > -Luke > > On Jun 4, 2015, at 12:11 PM, Kirpal Khalsa wrote: > > > Greetings wrenches. ....we would like to vet a good quality crimper for > crimping copper ring terminals to our mid range wire sizes....Any of you > have a good quality crimping tool you can recommend. ...wire sizes I am > looking to crimp are #2-#8 AWG..... > > Thanks in advance! > > Kirpal Khalsa > > Oregon Solarworks > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > Luke Christy > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 > NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 > CoSEIA Certified PV Installer > > Solar Gain Services, LLC > PO Box 531 > Monte Vista, CO. 81144 > SGSRenewables at Gmail.com > 719.588.3044 > www.sgsrenewables.com > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 20:46:22 2015 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 18:46:22 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] #2 -#8 AWG Crimpers In-Reply-To: References: <741E041E-8D62-42C4-BFC3-9CA3175462D2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A19F4DD-5A03-40B3-BD1B-81D914DC539B@gmail.com> Kirpal, Glad to help. By the way, I just realized that I completely butchered your name in my earlier post…My apologies for that. Typing on a smartphone didn't help. -Luke On Jun 4, 2015, at 5:42 PM, Kirpal Khalsa wrote: > Luke, Mick Jay.....Thank you for the feedback..I just ordered a set of the cub crimpers...I think it is going to be a useful addition to our tool chest. > What prompted this is that we often solder our ring terminals on but it tends to stiffen the copper wire.....We use alot of the Midnite panel mount breakers and the 300VDC breakers still have the really chincy terminal posts which break off with just the slightest twisting of the wire....Over the years Outback Power also used those breakers and we have piles of those brand new crappy breakers which have a broken terminal post....I noted some of the single pole panel mount breakers have a sturdier terminal post and this problem is going away....I am hoping this can happen for all the panel mount breakers these manufacturers sell. > Made me realize a high quality crimp without the stiffening of the wire will help reduce this problem. Those breakers are expensive! > Thanks for the advice!! > > Sunny Regards, > Kirpal Khalsa > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Oregon Solarworks LLC > www.oregonsolarworks.com > 541-218-0201 m > 541-299-0402 o > From solman at legacysolar.com Thu Jun 4 21:05:16 2015 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 20:05:16 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PVWatts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That worked, Jason! Thanks! On Jun 4, 2015 8:02 AM, "Jason Szumlanski" < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Clear your browser cache and cookies. I had the same problem and resolved > it by doing this. > > Jason > > On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 12:20 AM, Dan Fink wrote: > >> Location intrergation is not working for me either. I hope they get the >> API fixed before start of my class next monday, it's the focus of my >> classes next week. >> >> Dan Fink >> Buckville Energy >> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: >> ~ PV Installation Professional >> ~ Small Wind Installer >> NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ >> 970.672.4342 >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 10:02 PM, Gary Willett < >> Gary at icarussolarservices.com> wrote: >> >>> You're not alone. I tried several times today and it's not working for >>> me either. I sent a Tweet on #PVWATTS but no response there either. >>> >>> Gary Willett >>> Icarus Engineering LLC >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone 5s >>> >>> On Jun 3, 2015, at 10:56 PM, Kristopher Schmid >>> wrote: >>> >>> Anyone else notice that the PVWatts website is not working or do i have >>> a personal (computer) problem. I sent feedback to no avail and there is >>> nothing on their twitter account about an issue. When i enter a location, >>> it tells me to enter a different location and says that it's loading the >>> map, but never does. >>> >>> -- >>> Shine On! >>> >>> Kris Schmid >>> Legacy Solar, LLC >>> 864 Clam Falls Trail >>> Frederic, WI 54837 >>> www.legacysolar.com >>> 715-653-4295 >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installer >>> Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician >>> BSEE >>> >>> _________________ >>> >>> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Jun 4 21:21:02 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2015 19:21:02 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] #2 -#8 AWG Crimpers In-Reply-To: References: <741E041E-8D62-42C4-BFC3-9CA3175462D2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5570F97E.5060503@solarray.com> The breaker post weakness came up on the list a couple of years back, and Midnite responded by switching to the sturdier post. I haven't tried the 300 v versions though. I also haven't kept up with what Outback is using, but that post design should have never been used on anything beyond stranded 10 ga. They regularly had them on 80 amp breakers. I still have to deal with this issue every time I work on an system older than a couple of years, so this is going to still haunt us for decades......... R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 6/4/2015 5:42 PM, Kirpal Khalsa wrote: > Luke, Mick Jay.....Thank you for the feedback..I just ordered a set of > the cub crimpers...I think it is going to be a useful addition to our > tool chest. > What prompted this is that we often solder our ring terminals on but > it tends to stiffen the copper wire.....We use alot of the Midnite > panel mount breakers and the 300VDC breakers still have the really > chincy terminal posts which break off with just the slightest twisting > of the wire....Over the years Outback Power also used those breakers > and we have piles of those brand new crappy breakers which have a > broken terminal post....I noted some of the single pole panel mount > breakers have a sturdier terminal post and this problem is going > away....I am hoping this can happen for all the panel mount breakers > these manufacturers sell. > Made me realize a high quality crimp without the stiffening of the > wire will help reduce this problem. Those breakers are expensive! > Thanks for the advice!! > > Sunny Regards, > Kirpal Khalsa > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Oregon Solarworks LLC > www.oregonsolarworks.com > 541-218-0201 m > 541-299-0402 o > > On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 12:26 PM, Luke Christy > wrote: > > Hi Khirpa, > We use a high quality mini hex crimper with rotatable dies for > #8-1/0 AWG. It is basically a miniature version of the Hex-Crimp > battery lug crimper sold by Quick Cable. The one I have is older > and no longer has the manufacturer label, but I believe it was > marketed as a Cub Crimper. A quick web search shows that there is > still a similar crimper sold under that name. At any rate, I have > been very pleased with this crimper, and I'd recommend it. > > Best, > -Luke > > On Jun 4, 2015, at 12:11 PM, Kirpal Khalsa > wrote: > > > Greetings wrenches. ....we would like to vet a good quality > crimper for crimping copper ring terminals to our mid range wire > sizes....Any of you have a good quality crimping tool you can > recommend. ...wire sizes I am looking to crimp are #2-#8 AWG..... > > Thanks in advance! > > Kirpal Khalsa > > Oregon Solarworks > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > Luke Christy > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professionalâ„¢: Certification > #031409-25 > NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installerâ„¢: Certification #ST032611-03 > CoSEIA Certified PV Installer > > Solar Gain Services, LLC > PO Box 531 > Monte Vista, CO. 81144 > SGSRenewables at Gmail.com > 719.588.3044 > www.sgsrenewables.com > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 22:56:25 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 19:56:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] #2 -#8 AWG Crimpers In-Reply-To: <5570F97E.5060503@solarray.com> References: <741E041E-8D62-42C4-BFC3-9CA3175462D2@gmail.com> <5570F97E.5060503@solarray.com> Message-ID: <1F409841-0FC9-4ABE-A956-4AC397275920@gmail.com> I recommend arctic ultra flex wire, amazing stuff. Jay Peltz power > On Jun 4, 2015, at 6:21 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > > The breaker post weakness came up on the list a couple of years back, and Midnite responded by switching to the sturdier post. I haven't tried the 300 v versions though. I also haven't kept up with what Outback is using, but that post design should have never been used on anything beyond stranded 10 ga. They regularly had them on 80 amp breakers. I still have to deal with this issue every time I work on an system older than a couple of years, so this is going to still haunt us for decades......... > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > From brian at solarenergy.org Fri Jun 5 11:00:36 2015 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2015 09:00:36 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PVWatts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An incognito window in Chrome worked for me; had no problems in Firefox, which I had never used for PVWatts before; no matter what I did in Safari I could not get it to work. I'm assuming it totally rocks in IE?!? :) Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 PV Curriculum Developer and Instructor Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 7:05 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: > That worked, Jason! > > Thanks! > On Jun 4, 2015 8:02 AM, "Jason Szumlanski" < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> Clear your browser cache and cookies. I had the same problem and resolved >> it by doing this. >> >> Jason >> >> On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 12:20 AM, Dan Fink wrote: >> >>> Location intrergation is not working for me either. I hope they get the >>> API fixed before start of my class next monday, it's the focus of my >>> classes next week. >>> >>> Dan Fink >>> Buckville Energy >>> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: >>> ~ PV Installation Professional >>> ~ Small Wind Installer >>> NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ >>> 970.672.4342 >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 10:02 PM, Gary Willett < >>> Gary at icarussolarservices.com> wrote: >>> >>>> You're not alone. I tried several times today and it's not working for >>>> me either. I sent a Tweet on #PVWATTS but no response there either. >>>> >>>> Gary Willett >>>> Icarus Engineering LLC >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone 5s >>>> >>>> On Jun 3, 2015, at 10:56 PM, Kristopher Schmid >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Anyone else notice that the PVWatts website is not working or do i have >>>> a personal (computer) problem. I sent feedback to no avail and there is >>>> nothing on their twitter account about an issue. When i enter a location, >>>> it tells me to enter a different location and says that it's loading the >>>> map, but never does. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Shine On! >>>> >>>> Kris Schmid >>>> Legacy Solar, LLC >>>> 864 Clam Falls Trail >>>> Frederic, WI 54837 >>>> www.legacysolar.com >>>> 715-653-4295 >>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installer >>>> Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician >>>> BSEE >>>> >>>> _________________ >>>> >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From garrison at solarserviceinc.com Fri Jun 5 12:59:49 2015 From: garrison at solarserviceinc.com (Garrison Riegel) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2015 11:59:49 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Integrating with Lightning Protection In-Reply-To: <20150604204613.A004010C43@che.dreamhost.com> References: <008001d09ef0$bd6be990$3843bcb0$@solarserviceinc.com> <20150604204613.A004010C43@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <003401d09fb1$090ae0c0$1b20a240$@solarserviceinc.com> Thanks for the reference Brian and the link Jarmo. Thanks also Glenn for the NEC reference, which is consistent with Dehn saying that PV systems on roofs should be bonded to lightning protection systems if the required “separation distance” cannot be maintained. If this separation distance is not maintained then “flashover” could jump from the LPS to the array possibly resulting in fire. This separation distance is based on a number of site specific factors and is not necessarily easy to determine unfortunately. It looks like the distance will be just over 3’ for the project I’m working on…assuming I did my calculations correctly. Interestingly Dehn says that on buildings with metal roofs there is no way to maintain the necessary separation distance and therefore the PV array needs to be directly connected to the external LPS in all cases. Ray, I like your approach, which sounds like the safest design especially when this “separation distance” can be maintained. Thanks all for the replies. Much appreciated. Garrison From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2015 3:46 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Integrating with Lightning Protection Have you looked at NFPA 780-2011, standard for the installation of lightning protection systems as mentioned in 250.106? I recently read somewhere else that any conductive material in contact with or in the vicinity of a LPS has a negative effect on the designed efficiency of the LPS, but have not investigated further. Sincerely, Glenn Burt Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. _____ From: Garrison Riegel Sent: ‎6/‎4/‎2015 14:03 To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] Integrating with Lightning Protection Wrenches, Does anyone have any best practice recommendations (or books, articles, etc) for integrating a roof mounted PV system with a lightning protection system? Bare #6 copper and a split bolt to the braided copper connecting air terminals? At both ends of the array? Or should we not bond these systems on the roof? Opinions on a 2009 Wrenches thread varied, but I’ve heard it from a few sources that these should be bonded directly. Wondering if there is a general consensus at this point? Or strong opinions one way or the other? Thanks for your thoughts. Garrison Riegel PV Operations Manager | Solar Service Inc [p] 847-677-0950 | garrison at solarserviceinc.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dahlsolar at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 18:02:23 2015 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Solar) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2015 17:02:23 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Design Class Recommendations In-Reply-To: References: <26514.66.220.236.87.1432697456.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com> Message-ID: <86211AD1-2CCF-4767-A370-EA5979BC99DE@gmail.com> Check with the MREA in Wisconsin. Not sure if they have a class that fits with what you are looking for but they are good people over there and do some excellent training. Jesse Sent from my iPhone > On May 26, 2015, at 11:06 PM, Bill Hoffer wrote: > > Howie > > I am biased to SEI. Full disclosure I do teach for them. Great instructors and a solid curriculum. Options for online, in person and hands on. Great thing about SEI is most instructors are part time teachers working full time in the industry, so students get a good industry perspective. Reference material alone is worth taking the online...I use it in my work on a regular basis. Great Alumni network too! SEI rocks! > > Bill > >> On May 26, 2015 8:25 PM, "Howie Michaelson" wrote: >> Hi, >> >> We are hiring a new person to begin to take on generating our residential >> installation packets for the field crews. We looked for someone with >> experience, but have had to go with someone with lots of PV field project >> management experience, reasonably good computer program skills, but not a >> great deal of understanding of Code and equipment choices. We are looking >> for some course work that will help shorten the learning curve and >> teaching burden. I found several potential classes, but any >> recommendations for either online courses or intensive live classes would >> be very appreciated. Cost is less of a concern than finding something that >> is effective and efficient. >> >> Thanks, >> Howie >> -- >> Howie Michaelson >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ >> >> Catamount Solar, LLC >> Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service >> VT Solar Electric & Hot Water Incentive Partner >> http://www.CatamountSolar.com >> 802-272-0004 >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Sat Jun 6 09:39:55 2015 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2015 06:39:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SI/SB MicroGrid - Recovery From Low Battery Shut Off Message-ID: <5572F82B.2030506@berkeleysolar.com> Hi Guys, Just wondering about how a SI/SB microgrid works. If all the PV is connected to SB inverters, what happens if the loads manage to drain the batteries to their low voltage shutdown? Wouldn't the SB stop providing the AC sync so then the SB wouldn't have anything to sync to even if they had power available from the PV? How is this handled? It seems to me you would always want to have some amount of PV DC coupled. Thanks, Mark Frye Berkeley Solar Electric Systems From maclewis1 at gmail.com Sat Jun 6 10:23:24 2015 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2015 08:23:24 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SI/SB MicroGrid - Recovery From Low Battery Shut Off In-Reply-To: <5572F82B.2030506@berkeleysolar.com> References: <5572F82B.2030506@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: Hi Mark, The Sunny Island has various battery protection modes and will shutdown based on user programmable state of charge levels. Level 2 battery protection will start the Sunny Island every 2 hours in an attempt to get charge into the batteries. You should set this level up at times when energy input is likely. See page 113-114 here: http://files.sma.de/dl/15216/SI4548-6048-US-BE-en-20.pdf If it doesn't get any charging to the batteries for 10 minutes, it will shut down and wait again. This is an advantage of having at least some DC coupled solar input. On Sat, Jun 6, 2015 at 7:39 AM, Mark Frye wrote: > Hi Guys, > > Just wondering about how a SI/SB microgrid works. If all the PV is > connected to SB inverters, what happens if the loads manage to drain the > batteries to their low voltage shutdown? Wouldn't the SB stop providing the > AC sync so then the SB wouldn't have anything to sync to even if they had > power available from the PV? > > How is this handled? It seems to me you would always want to have some > amount of PV DC coupled. > > Thanks, > > Mark Frye > Berkeley Solar Electric Systems > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Jun 6 12:11:12 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2015 06:11:12 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SI/SB MicroGrid - Recovery From Low Battery Shut Off In-Reply-To: <5572F82B.2030506@berkeleysolar.com> References: <5572F82B.2030506@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: This seams to be a very common ovetsite by some solar pro's you are correct if the system shuts down even in the case of an SI battery sensor or low voltage the entire system is down, if there is a genny on site this may prevent it if it has fuel. I see this issue and get asked a lot what can be done and a simple but not cheap fix is to put part of the array on a CC with some panels just to help the battery connect voltage come back. The newer SI software will increase run tome to give the inverters time to re-start before the crash again, this will help once you get your voltage back up. We have also used a 48 volt battery charger to do this with a back up genny. I am sire there has to be some other work arounds but this is what I have done. Jerry Ca, Hi, Tx, Co, Nv, Gm. On Jun 6, 2015 6:39 AM, "Mark Frye" wrote: > Hi Guys, > > Just wondering about how a SI/SB microgrid works. If all the PV is > connected to SB inverters, what happens if the loads manage to drain the > batteries to their low voltage shutdown? Wouldn't the SB stop providing the > AC sync so then the SB wouldn't have anything to sync to even if they had > power available from the PV? > > How is this handled? It seems to me you would always want to have some > amount of PV DC coupled. > > Thanks, > > Mark Frye > Berkeley Solar Electric Systems > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Sat Jun 6 10:49:07 2015 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2015 07:49:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SI/SB MicroGrid - Recovery From Low Battery Shut Off In-Reply-To: References: <5572F82B.2030506@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: Hi Mark Set up properly with the 3 protection thresholds plus generator auto start you shouldn't need any DC PV input. Seems a shame to spend the money on a charge control etc when SMA has carefully provided a built in solution. If you do decide to go that route you'll need to install a Shunt and set up the DC Current Sense circuit so the inverter knows what other current is flowing to and fro the batteries. Best, Jeff Sent from my iPhone On Jun 6, 2015, at 7:23 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi Mark, > > The Sunny Island has various battery protection modes and will shutdown based on user programmable state of charge levels. Level 2 battery protection will start the Sunny Island every 2 hours in an attempt to get charge into the batteries. You should set this level up at times when energy input is likely. See page 113-114 here: http://files.sma.de/dl/15216/SI4548-6048-US-BE-en-20.pdf If it doesn't get any charging to the batteries for 10 minutes, it will shut down and wait again. > > This is an advantage of having at least some DC coupled solar input. > > > > On Sat, Jun 6, 2015 at 7:39 AM, Mark Frye wrote: >> Hi Guys, >> >> Just wondering about how a SI/SB microgrid works. If all the PV is connected to SB inverters, what happens if the loads manage to drain the batteries to their low voltage shutdown? Wouldn't the SB stop providing the AC sync so then the SB wouldn't have anything to sync to even if they had power available from the PV? >> >> How is this handled? It seems to me you would always want to have some amount of PV DC coupled. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Mark Frye >> Berkeley Solar Electric Systems >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat Jun 6 16:05:00 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2015 14:05:00 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SI/SB MicroGrid - Recovery From Low Battery Shut Off In-Reply-To: References: <5572F82B.2030506@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: <5573526C.8040604@solarray.com> Actually its much more cost effective to use charge controllers than GT inverters for the PV input. Just price out a 4 Kw GT inverter of your choice compared to a Midnite Classic for instance. It's in the ball park of 25 cents/ watt savings, and that's not chump change. I only use AC coupling when the GT system is already in place, and we're adding battery backup. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 6/6/2015 8:49 AM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: > Hi Mark > Seems a shame to spend the money on a charge control etc when SMA > has carefully provided a built in solution. > > If you do decide to go that route you'll need to install a Shunt and > set up the DC Current Sense circuit so the inverter knows what other > current is flowing to and fro the batteries. > > Best, > > Jeff > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 6, 2015, at 7:23 AM, Mac Lewis > wrote: > >> Hi Mark, >> >> The Sunny Island has various battery protection modes and will >> shutdown based on user programmable state of charge levels. Level 2 >> battery protection will start the Sunny Island every 2 hours in an >> attempt to get charge into the batteries. You should set this level >> up at times when energy input is likely. See page 113-114 here: >> http://files.sma.de/dl/15216/SI4548-6048-US-BE-en-20.pdf If it >> doesn't get any charging to the batteries for 10 minutes, it will >> shut down and wait again. >> >> This is an advantage of having at least some DC coupled solar input. >> >> >> >> On Sat, Jun 6, 2015 at 7:39 AM, Mark Frye > > wrote: >> >> Hi Guys, >> >> Just wondering about how a SI/SB microgrid works. If all the PV >> is connected to SB inverters, what happens if the loads manage to >> drain the batteries to their low voltage shutdown? Wouldn't the >> SB stop providing the AC sync so then the SB wouldn't have >> anything to sync to even if they had power available from the PV? >> >> How is this handled? It seems to me you would always want to have >> some amount of PV DC coupled. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Mark Frye >> Berkeley Solar Electric Systems >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> * >> >> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >> >> * >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Jun 6 16:15:54 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2015 10:15:54 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SI/SB MicroGrid - Recovery From Low Battery Shut Off In-Reply-To: References: <5572F82B.2030506@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: Gennys and battery settings are all good but if the battery died in the genny or its out of fuel then all bets are off so things happen more often then you might think. Backing up is insurance, like I said there are other options out there. Jerry On Jun 6, 2015 10:54 AM, "Jeff Clearwater" wrote: > Hi Mark > > Set up properly with the 3 protection thresholds plus generator auto > start you shouldn't need any DC PV input. Seems a shame to spend the money > on a charge control etc when SMA has carefully provided a built in > solution. > > If you do decide to go that route you'll need to install a Shunt and set > up the DC Current Sense circuit so the inverter knows what other current is > flowing to and fro the batteries. > > Best, > > Jeff > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 6, 2015, at 7:23 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Hi Mark, > > The Sunny Island has various battery protection modes and will shutdown > based on user programmable state of charge levels. Level 2 battery > protection will start the Sunny Island every 2 hours in an attempt to get > charge into the batteries. You should set this level up at times when > energy input is likely. See page 113-114 here: > http://files.sma.de/dl/15216/SI4548-6048-US-BE-en-20.pdf If it doesn't > get any charging to the batteries for 10 minutes, it will shut down and > wait again. > > This is an advantage of having at least some DC coupled solar input. > > > > On Sat, Jun 6, 2015 at 7:39 AM, Mark Frye wrote: > >> Hi Guys, >> >> Just wondering about how a SI/SB microgrid works. If all the PV is >> connected to SB inverters, what happens if the loads manage to drain the >> batteries to their low voltage shutdown? Wouldn't the SB stop providing the >> AC sync so then the SB wouldn't have anything to sync to even if they had >> power available from the PV? >> >> How is this handled? It seems to me you would always want to have some >> amount of PV DC coupled. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Mark Frye >> Berkeley Solar Electric Systems >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Sat Jun 6 17:51:09 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2015 15:51:09 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SI/SB MicroGrid - Recovery From Low Battery Shut Off In-Reply-To: References: <5572F82B.2030506@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: <55736B4D.6070909@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gary at arp-solar.com Sun Jun 7 08:53:26 2015 From: gary at arp-solar.com (gary easton) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2015 08:53:26 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery charger Message-ID: I have a customer with an outback Radian system as well as an SMA TL inverter. He would like to plug a small battery charger into the emergency outlet on the SMA if the grid goes down and send that little extra juice into his battery bank. Is there an issue with two systems charging the same bank? -- Sent from Gmail Mobile -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Sun Jun 7 10:34:00 2015 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (William Dorsett) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2015 09:34:00 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SI/SB MicroGrid - Recovery From Low Battery Shut Off In-Reply-To: <5572F82B.2030506@berkeleysolar.com> References: <5572F82B.2030506@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: <004301d0a12e$ff49f970$fdddec50$@sbcglobal.net> This discussion reminds me of the microgrids installed in Nepal. Once they had electricity, villagers loaded down their houses with loads they could never have before. Soon the NGO's were searching houses for browned out light bulbs with flashlights. In Nepal they could use fuse wire. Whether it is a fishing camp, a neighborhood system or simply members of the same family, and regardless of the technology, this is a chronic conflict of social responsibility vers "I'll get mine." It will remain an issue with microgrids. Bill Dorsett -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mark Frye Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2015 8:40 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] SI/SB MicroGrid - Recovery From Low Battery Shut Off Hi Guys, Just wondering about how a SI/SB microgrid works. If all the PV is connected to SB inverters, what happens if the loads manage to drain the batteries to their low voltage shutdown? Wouldn't the SB stop providing the AC sync so then the SB wouldn't have anything to sync to even if they had power available from the PV? How is this handled? It seems to me you would always want to have some amount of PV DC coupled. Thanks, Mark Frye Berkeley Solar Electric Systems _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sun Jun 7 12:15:49 2015 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2015 12:15:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SI/SB MicroGrid - Recovery From Low Battery Shut Off In-Reply-To: <55736B4D.6070909@sindelarsolar.com> References: <5572F82B.2030506@berkeleysolar.com> <55736B4D.6070909@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <20150607161646.2C7C6564057@homiemail-a59.g.dreamhost.com> That is what we did for our home system. The main impetus was to keep the batteries charged without having to charge from the grid using the on-board battery chargers. Grid charging uses a lot of utility power. This system has stacked Outback inverters. We keep the backup inverters turned off at the Mate, but with the instrumentation running. If we did have a low battery situation, the voltage would rise enough to start the system back up from the 80 W of DC coupled PV. Another way to recover from low battery shutdown would be to program the shut down parameters below battery voltage when the sun came back out. Also, it is likely that if the system were completely turned off at the DC breaker, the battery voltage would rise enough to start the inverter(s) when solar resources improved. At 05:51 PM 6/6/2015, you wrote: >Years ago, when I was researching SB/SI >microgrid solutions for a Ted Turner high-end >off grid rich man's lodge, John Berdner (at that >time the head of SMA-America) had made me the >same recommendation: that a small amount of PV >be wired as a DC charge-controller-based input. >This was a final fail-safe approach, in case the >array was insufficient and the gennie didn't >start. It would bring the batteries to a minimal >voltage level, such that the SB/SI system would >return to operation once the batteries recovered. >Allan > >Allan Sindelar >allan at sindelarsolar.com >NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional >New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >505 780-2738 cell > > >On 6/6/2015 8:23 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: >>Hi Mark, >> >>The Sunny Island has various battery protection >>modes and will shutdown based on user >>programmable state of charge levels. Level 2 >>battery protection will start the Sunny Island >>every 2 hours in an attempt to get charge into >>the batteries. You should set this level up at >>times when energy input is likely. See page >>113-114 here: >>http://files.sma.de/dl/15216/SI4548-6048-US-BE-en-20.pdf >>If it doesn't get any charging to the batteries >>for 10 minutes, it will shut down and wait again. >> >>This is an advantage of having at least some DC coupled solar input. >> >> >> >>On Sat, Jun 6, 2015 at 7:39 AM, Mark Frye >><markf at berkeleysolar.com> wrote: >>Hi Guys, >> >>Just wondering about how a SI/SB microgrid >>works. If all the PV is connected to SB >>inverters, what happens if the loads manage to >>drain the batteries to their low voltage >>shutdown? Wouldn't the SB stop providing the AC >>sync so then the SB wouldn't have anything to >>sync to even if they had power available from the PV? >> >>How is this handled? It seems to me you would >>always want to have some amount of PV DC coupled. >> >>Thanks, >> >>Mark Frye >>Berkeley Solar Electric Systems >>_______________________________________________ >>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >>List Address: >>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >>Change listserver email address & settings: >>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >>List-Archive: >>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >>List rules & etiquette: >>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >>Check out or update participant bios: >>www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >>-- >> >> >> >>Mac Lewis >> >>"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >>List Address: >>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >>Change listserver email address & settings: >>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >>List-Archive: >>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >>List rules & etiquette: >>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >>Check out or update participant bios: >>www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 11:52:46 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay peltz) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2015 08:52:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery charger In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: HI Gary, So these two systems are not AC coupled? Jay On Sun, Jun 7, 2015 at 5:53 AM, gary easton wrote: > I have a customer with an outback Radian system as well as an SMA TL > inverter. He would like to plug a small battery charger into the emergency > outlet on the SMA if the grid goes down and send that little extra juice > into his battery bank. Is there an issue with two systems charging the > same bank? > > -- > Sent from Gmail Mobile > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Jay Peltz Peltz Power jay.peltz at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 12:38:02 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2015 06:38:02 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery charger In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No, however you will need to keep the tl charger input demand well within the tl capability. There are a lot of 48 volt golf cart chargers out there but most are fixed output. You might consider AC coupling the tl to the Radian skip the charger altogether. Just a thhought. On Jun 7, 2015 5:53 AM, "gary easton" wrote: > I have a customer with an outback Radian system as well as an SMA TL > inverter. He would like to plug a small battery charger into the emergency > outlet on the SMA if the grid goes down and send that little extra juice > into his battery bank. Is there an issue with two systems charging the > same bank? > > -- > Sent from Gmail Mobile > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 14:01:21 2015 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar .) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2015 11:01:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery charger In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Why not use an IOTA 48V plug in battery charger? In a backup situation, the TL can output at 120V up to 1500W, should be enough to help out. Mike On Sun, Jun 7, 2015 at 9:38 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > No, however you will need to keep the tl charger input demand well within > the tl capability. There are a lot of 48 volt golf cart chargers out there > but most are fixed output. > You might consider AC coupling the tl to the Radian skip the charger > altogether. Just a thhought. > On Jun 7, 2015 5:53 AM, "gary easton" wrote: > >> I have a customer with an outback Radian system as well as an SMA TL >> inverter. He would like to plug a small battery charger into the emergency >> outlet on the SMA if the grid goes down and send that little extra juice >> into his battery bank. Is there an issue with two systems charging the >> same bank? >> >> -- >> Sent from Gmail Mobile >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Michael & Jessica Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. Office: 707-884-1862 Cell: 707-684-0064 *We prefer to have ALL documentation E-mailed ** prevent paper waste**please think before you print* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Sun Jun 7 23:08:45 2015 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (William Dorsett) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2015 22:08:45 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SI/SB MicroGrid - Recovery From Low Battery Shut Off In-Reply-To: <20150607161646.2C7C6564057@homiemail-a59.g.dreamhost.com> References: <5572F82B.2030506@berkeleysolar.com> <55736B4D.6070909@sindelarsolar.com> <20150607161646.2C7C6564057@homiemail-a59.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <008b01d0a198$6f547010$4dfd5030$@sbcglobal.net> Do these same concerns apply to XW? There is a minimum battery (I think 100Ah) required. Bill Dorsett From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2015 11:16 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SI/SB MicroGrid - Recovery From Low Battery Shut Off That is what we did for our home system. The main impetus was to keep the batteries charged without having to charge from the grid using the on-board battery chargers. Grid charging uses a lot of utility power. This system has stacked Outback inverters. We keep the backup inverters turned off at the Mate, but with the instrumentation running. If we did have a low battery situation, the voltage would rise enough to start the system back up from the 80 W of DC coupled PV. Another way to recover from low battery shutdown would be to program the shut down parameters below battery voltage when the sun came back out. Also, it is likely that if the system were completely turned off at the DC breaker, the battery voltage would rise enough to start the inverter(s) when solar resources improved. At 05:51 PM 6/6/2015, you wrote: Years ago, when I was researching SB/SI microgrid solutions for a Ted Turner high-end off grid rich man's lodge, John Berdner (at that time the head of SMA-America) had made me the same recommendation: that a small amount of PV be wired as a DC charge-controller-based input. This was a final fail-safe approach, in case the array was insufficient and the gennie didn't start. It would bring the batteries to a minimal voltage level, such that the SB/SI system would return to operation once the batteries recovered. Allan Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell On 6/6/2015 8:23 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: Hi Mark, The Sunny Island has various battery protection modes and will shutdown based on user programmable state of charge levels. Level 2 battery protection will start the Sunny Island every 2 hours in an attempt to get charge into the batteries. You should set this level up at times when energy input is likely. See page 113-114 here: http://files.sma.de/dl/15216/SI4548-6048-US-BE-en-20.pdf If it doesn't get any charging to the batteries for 10 minutes, it will shut down and wait again. This is an advantage of having at least some DC coupled solar input. On Sat, Jun 6, 2015 at 7:39 AM, Mark Frye wrote: Hi Guys, Just wondering about how a SI/SB microgrid works. If all the PV is connected to SB inverters, what happens if the loads manage to drain the batteries to their low voltage shutdown? Wouldn't the SB stop providing the AC sync so then the SB wouldn't have anything to sync to even if they had power available from the PV? How is this handled? It seems to me you would always want to have some amount of PV DC coupled. Thanks, Mark Frye Berkeley Solar Electric Systems _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 00:17:10 2015 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2015 22:17:10 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SI/SB MicroGrid - Recovery From Low Battery Shut Off In-Reply-To: <008b01d0a198$6f547010$4dfd5030$@sbcglobal.net> References: <5572F82B.2030506@berkeleysolar.com> <55736B4D.6070909@sindelarsolar.com> <20150607161646.2C7C6564057@homiemail-a59.g.dreamhost.com> <008b01d0a198$6f547010$4dfd5030$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Hi William, These same concerns apply to any AC coupled inverter system. The reason that it doesn't apply to DC coupled charge controllers is that they are in direct electrical contact with the battery bank, if a battery bank is there and within the acceptable battery voltage range, they should boot up and start charging the batteries when the sun is around. In an AC coupled system, the battery based inverter is responsible for "tricking" the solar inverter into thinking that there is a grid there. If the battery based inverter shuts down on low battery (or on any other fault) there is no "grid" to export solar power and so the grid-tied inverter could stay off. This can cause a circular problem, no solar charging because there is no micro-grid, no micro-grid because the batteries are low etc etc). In a DC coupled system, the battery based inverter can shut down the loads while the charge controllers are bringing the battery state of charge up. The real issue is that in an AC coupled system, your charging system and your loads are on the same AC bus. There is no way to isolate solar input bus from the load bus. This is why its a good idea to have load-shedding contactors in AC coupled systems. This gives the system control over some of the heavy loads at least. On Sun, Jun 7, 2015 at 9:08 PM, William Dorsett wrote: > Do these same concerns apply to XW? There is a minimum battery (I think > 100Ah) required. > > > > Bill Dorsett > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Drake > *Sent:* Sunday, June 07, 2015 11:16 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SI/SB MicroGrid - Recovery From Low Battery > Shut Off > > > > That is what we did for our home system. The main impetus was to keep the > batteries charged without having to charge from the grid using the on-board > battery chargers. Grid charging uses a lot of utility power. > > This system has stacked Outback inverters. We keep the backup inverters > turned off at the Mate, but with the instrumentation running. If we did > have a low battery situation, the voltage would rise enough to start the > system back up from the 80 W of DC coupled PV. > > Another way to recover from low battery shutdown would be to program the > shut down parameters below battery voltage when the sun came back out. > Also, it is likely that if the system were completely turned off at the DC > breaker, the battery voltage would rise enough to start the inverter(s) > when solar resources improved. > > At 05:51 PM 6/6/2015, you wrote: > > Years ago, when I was researching SB/SI microgrid solutions for a Ted > Turner high-end off grid rich man's lodge, John Berdner (at that time the > head of SMA-America) had made me the same recommendation: that a small > amount of PV be wired as a DC charge-controller-based input. This was a > final fail-safe approach, in case the array was insufficient and the gennie > didn't start. It would bring the batteries to a minimal voltage level, such > that the SB/SI system would return to operation once the batteries > recovered. > Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* > > > On 6/6/2015 8:23 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Hi Mark, > > The Sunny Island has various battery protection modes and will shutdown > based on user programmable state of charge levels. Level 2 battery > protection will start the Sunny Island every 2 hours in an attempt to get > charge into the batteries. You should set this level up at times when > energy input is likely. See page 113-114 here: > http://files.sma.de/dl/15216/SI4548-6048-US-BE-en-20.pdf If it doesn't > get any charging to the batteries for 10 minutes, it will shut down and > wait again. > > This is an advantage of having at least some DC coupled solar input. > > > > On Sat, Jun 6, 2015 at 7:39 AM, Mark Frye > wrote: > > Hi Guys, > > Just wondering about how a SI/SB microgrid works. If all the PV is > connected to SB inverters, what happens if the loads manage to drain the > batteries to their low voltage shutdown? Wouldn't the SB stop providing the > AC sync so then the SB wouldn't have anything to sync to even if they had > power available from the PV? > > How is this handled? It seems to me you would always want to have some > amount of PV DC coupled. > > Thanks, > > Mark Frye > > Berkeley Solar Electric Systems > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: > > > > RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Mon Jun 8 13:30:37 2015 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 11:30:37 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] bare copper in contact with aluminum Message-ID: Wrenches, I'm looking specifically for photo evidence of (corrosion) issues with installing bare copper in contact with aluminum (for example: a bare #6 in contact with an aluminum rail or PV module frame.) Anecdotal stories alone are welcome but accompanying pictures are what I'm looking for. Thanks, *Benn Kilburn * CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc 6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7 P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com [image: email] [image: facebook] [image: twitter] [image: linkedin] [image: google] [image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirk at vtsolar.com Mon Jun 8 14:51:34 2015 From: kirk at vtsolar.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 14:51:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] tesla powerwall Message-ID: <00bf01d0a21c$247a8e60$6d6fab20$@vtsolar.com> I see there are a few more but not much more specs on the Tesla website. Apparently this is not much more than a battery enclosure with batteries. No inverter included. I don't know how an OEM can market something with so little info available. No install manual, no formal spec sheet. Does anyone know if these details are available anywhere? Kirk Herander VT Solar, LLC Proven PV provider since 1991 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirk at vtsolar.com Mon Jun 8 16:21:57 2015 From: kirk at vtsolar.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 16:21:57 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] tesla powerwall Message-ID: <00f501d0a228$c4fd23a0$4ef76ae0$@vtsolar.com> What bums me out is I have clients who won’t commit to a PV system until grid compatibility(if there is any) with the Powerwall is fully understood. But I just saw it’s sold out through 2016 anyway. http://gas2.org/2015/05/12/tesla-powerwall-sells-out-through-2016-brings-in-800-million/ Unbelievable. Amazing all this hype, considering no one I know can get much info out of the company. Manuals and full specs are impossible to find. This article is not very complimentary for other reasons, such as financial. At least I can tell my customers to give up the pipe dream. Kirk Herander VT Solar, LLC Proven PV provider since 1991 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com [mailto:toddcory at finestplanet.com] Sent: Monday, June 08, 2015 3:10 PM To: kirk at vtsolar.com Subject: RE: [RE-wrenches] tesla powerwall a colleague in the re biz, calls these the "tesla bullshit wall". what saddened me the most, was how few people understand reality and just want a free lunch to allow unlimited growth on a finite planet... so we have magic solar, magic wind and now, magic batteries. "I don’t know how an OEM can market something with so little info available." musk is nothing more than a cornucopian charleton marketing bulshit. you made the mistake of looking behind the curtain. todd On Monday, June 8, 2015 11:51am, "Kirk Herander" said: I see there are a few more but not much more specs on the Tesla website. Apparently this is not much more than a battery enclosure with batteries. No inverter included. I don’t know how an OEM can market something with so little info available. No install manual, no formal spec sheet. Does anyone know if these details are available anywhere? Kirk Herander VT Solar, LLC Proven PV provider since 1991 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 19:38:06 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2015 13:38:06 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] tesla powerwall In-Reply-To: <00bf01d0a21c$247a8e60$6d6fab20$@vtsolar.com> References: <00bf01d0a21c$247a8e60$6d6fab20$@vtsolar.com> Message-ID: If anybody remembers when they released the car it was much the same very early on. Its all marketing research right now. On Jun 8, 2015 8:51 AM, "Kirk Herander" wrote: > I see there are a few more but not much more specs on the Tesla website. > Apparently this is not much more than a battery enclosure with batteries. > No inverter included. I don’t know how an OEM can market something with so > little info available. No install manual, no formal spec sheet. Does anyone > know if these details are available anywhere? > > > > *Kirk Herander* > > *VT Solar, LLC * > > *Proven PV provider since 1991* > > *www.vermontsolarnow.com * > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > 802.863.1202 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 00:11:03 2015 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2015 00:11:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] tesla powerwall In-Reply-To: <00bf01d0a21c$247a8e60$6d6fab20$@vtsolar.com> References: <00bf01d0a21c$247a8e60$6d6fab20$@vtsolar.com> Message-ID: Kirk, From what I have been able to get from GMP is that they don't even know much about it except they are partnering with Tesla.... whatever that means. I'm on a list to get info as soon as they have it but I'm not holding my breath. John Blittersdorf Central Vermont Solar & Wind. On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 2:51 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: > I see there are a few more but not much more specs on the Tesla website. > Apparently this is not much more than a battery enclosure with batteries. > No inverter included. I don’t know how an OEM can market something with so > little info available. No install manual, no formal spec sheet. Does anyone > know if these details are available anywhere? > > > > *Kirk Herander* > > *VT Solar, LLC * > > *Proven PV provider since 1991* > > *www.vermontsolarnow.com * > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > 802.863.1202 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 9 12:01:26 2015 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (William Dorsett) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2015 11:01:26 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] tesla powerwall In-Reply-To: <00bf01d0a21c$247a8e60$6d6fab20$@vtsolar.com> References: <00bf01d0a21c$247a8e60$6d6fab20$@vtsolar.com> Message-ID: <018901d0a2cd$8afdf940$a0f9ebc0$@sbcglobal.net> Tesla is is not the only game in town, and is prominent only because of its spokesperson. There are a number of smart battery companies in the market, Sharp, Panasonic, GE: http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/articles/print/volume-18/issue-3/feature s/solar-and-energy-storage/quantifying-returns-does-energy-storage-coupled-w ith-pv-offer-big-savings.html And for those of us using Enphase hardware, they are coming out with an "AC Battery" in about the same time frame as Tesla, Q2 of 2016. From the picture in their brochure, it just mounts on the wall and plugs into the trunk cable with the connectors we're all familiar with: http://enphase.com/sites/default/files/Enphase-AC-Battery-Brochure-1.pdf Stacked in multiples of 1.2 kWh capacity, they are certainly not for an independent system but they are a response to the utilities' demand charges for less than 100% peak generation. In our area, that will only require 2 or 3 (at who knows what price). That is the battle we are fighting in Kansas right now. Bill Dorsett From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirk Herander Sent: Monday, June 08, 2015 1:52 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] tesla powerwall I see there are a few more but not much more specs on the Tesla website. Apparently this is not much more than a battery enclosure with batteries. No inverter included. I don't know how an OEM can market something with so little info available. No install manual, no formal spec sheet. Does anyone know if these details are available anywhere? Kirk Herander VT Solar, LLC Proven PV provider since 1991 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Jun 9 13:55:36 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2015 13:55:36 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] tesla powerwall In-Reply-To: <018901d0a2cd$8afdf940$a0f9ebc0$@sbcglobal.net> References: <00bf01d0a21c$247a8e60$6d6fab20$@vtsolar.com> <018901d0a2cd$8afdf940$a0f9ebc0$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: >From what I understand, the Enphase offering will include an inverter (inverter/charger?). I assume they are using a similar architecture to the PV microinverters, which is a modular approach to solving the problem. This will undoubtedly cost more, but will make design and implementation very easy. The monitoring capability will surely be a major selling point. Jason Szumlanski On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 12:01 PM, William Dorsett wrote: > Tesla is is not the only game in town, and is prominent only because of > its spokesperson. There are a number of smart battery companies in the > market, Sharp, Panasonic, GE: > > > > > http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/articles/print/volume-18/issue-3/features/solar-and-energy-storage/quantifying-returns-does-energy-storage-coupled-with-pv-offer-big-savings.html > > > > And for those of us using Enphase hardware, they are coming out with an > “AC Battery” in about the same time frame as Tesla, Q2 of 2016. From the > picture in their brochure, it just mounts on the wall and plugs into the > trunk cable with the connectors we’re all familiar with: > > > > http://enphase.com/sites/default/files/Enphase-AC-Battery-Brochure-1.pdf > > > > Stacked in multiples of 1.2 kWh capacity, they are certainly not for an > independent system but they are a response to the utilities’ demand charges > for less than 100% peak generation. In our area, that will only require 2 > or 3 (at who knows what price). That is the battle we are fighting in > Kansas right now. > > > > Bill Dorsett > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Kirk Herander > *Sent:* Monday, June 08, 2015 1:52 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] tesla powerwall > > > > I see there are a few more but not much more specs on the Tesla website. > Apparently this is not much more than a battery enclosure with batteries. > No inverter included. I don’t know how an OEM can market something with so > little info available. No install manual, no formal spec sheet. Does anyone > know if these details are available anywhere? > > > > *Kirk Herander* > > *VT Solar, LLC * > > *Proven PV provider since 1991* > > *www.vermontsolarnow.com * > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > 802.863.1202 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Gary at IcarusSolarServices.com Tue Jun 9 23:33:19 2015 From: Gary at IcarusSolarServices.com (Gary Willett) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2015 22:33:19 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MidNite Solar SMA Relay Board (MNSMARB) Message-ID: <5577AFFF.9010808@IcarusSolarServices.com> Fellow Esteemed Wrenches: Working on a on-grid battery back-up system with generator where client wants to use SMA Sunny Island / Sunny Boy. Anybody know where to find the MidNite Solar SMA Relay Board (MNSMARB), or a functional equivalent? It is intended to be installed inside the MidNite SMA E-Panel. I searched the MidNite site and found the attached document, but no other info. Thanks! Gary Willett PE Icarus Engineering / Solar Services -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SMARB-GENERATOR-REVA.pdf Type: application/octetstream Size: 113096 bytes Desc: not available URL: From davis at mckernongroup.com Wed Jun 10 15:06:39 2015 From: davis at mckernongroup.com (Davis Terrell) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2015 19:06:39 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fastening to light-guage steel framing Message-ID: Esteemed Wrenches, We are looking at a roof mounted PV system on a building with light gauge steel roof frame. Only attachment that looks to be compatible out of the box is the EcoFastenSolar Quickfoot because it uses OMG XHD screws which are intended for such an application. We have used this before and are comfortable with it, but anyone have any other products they have used successfully? I know no one here wants to give professional engineering advice (and I would not take it as such) but does anyone have any success stories or things to look out for? Thanks, Davis Terrell Project Manager Green Earth Energy davis at mckernongroup.com office: (802) 247-1200 mobile: (802) 989-1661 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed Jun 10 15:29:34 2015 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2015 12:29:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fastening to light-guage steel framing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Davis, What type of roof is it? Corrugated steel? Best, August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Davis Terrell *Sent:* Wednesday, June 10, 2015 12:07 PM *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Fastening to light-guage steel framing Esteemed Wrenches, We are looking at a roof mounted PV system on a building with light gauge steel roof frame. Only attachment that looks to be compatible out of the box is the EcoFastenSolar Quickfoot because it uses OMG XHD screws which are intended for such an application. We have used this before and are comfortable with it, but anyone have any other products they have used successfully? I know no one here wants to give professional engineering advice (and I would not take it as such) but does anyone have any success stories or things to look out for? Thanks, Davis Terrell Project Manager Green Earth Energy davis at mckernongroup.com office: (802) 247-1200 mobile: (802) 989-1661 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From boB at midnitesolar.com Wed Jun 10 16:53:22 2015 From: boB at midnitesolar.com (boB at midnitesolar.com) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2015 13:53:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MidNite Solar SMA Relay Board (MNSMARB) In-Reply-To: <5577AFFF.9010808@IcarusSolarServices.com> References: <5577AFFF.9010808@IcarusSolarServices.com> Message-ID: <5578A3C2.2020501@midnitesolar.com> After spending a lot of time and money to make the SMA Sunny Island work with a grid tie inverter system of twice the Sunny Island capacity we dropped the project. The problem we had is that the system is complicated and we were spending far too much time working with the people in the field as well as with our own internal wiring shop. We have made changes in our own shop and can now better build these systems. We have one customer that uses a lot of these because he insists on putting 20 to 24KW of PV on double stacked AC coupled Sunny Island systems. We have had no issues at all in the field when the SMARB system is properly installed. We are very leery of opening this back up to installers because it is quit often being installed by people who are not really qualified to do this in the field. We have begun building these once again for this one customer on pre-wired systems. We doubled the price though since we were losing money at the old price. We do not know if we will open it up for sales as a kit to be installed in the field? For a competent installer (old off-grid guys), it is a snap. We welcome your comments as we pride ourselves on coming up with solutions for problems. This one turned out to be tough even for us, but once we had it all figured out, it became a nice product, but had a bad history of support due to a moving target of how to make it work. Robin Gudgel MidNite Solar On 6/9/2015 8:33 PM, Gary Willett wrote: > Fellow Esteemed Wrenches: > > Working on a on-grid battery back-up system with generator where > client wants to use SMA Sunny Island / Sunny Boy. > > Anybody know where to find the MidNite Solar SMA Relay Board > (MNSMARB), or a functional equivalent? It is intended to be installed > inside the MidNite SMA E-Panel. > > I searched the MidNite site and found the attached document, but no > other info. > > Thanks! > > Gary Willett PE > Icarus Engineering / Solar Services -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Thu Jun 11 00:10:04 2015 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2015 06:10:04 +0200 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fastening to light-guage steel framing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm fond of the SnapNRack metal roof base. You can use it with any suitable fastener. http://www.snapnrack.com/metal-roof-base-simplified On Jun 10, 2015 9:07 PM, "Davis Terrell" wrote: > Esteemed Wrenches, > > > > We are looking at a roof mounted PV system on a building with light gauge > steel roof frame. Only attachment that looks to be compatible out of the > box is the EcoFastenSolar Quickfoot because it uses OMG XHD screws which > are intended for such an application. We have used this before and are > comfortable with it, but anyone have any other products they have used > successfully? I know no one here wants to give professional engineering > advice (and I would not take it as such) but does anyone have any success > stories or things to look out for? Thanks, > > > > > > Davis Terrell > > Project Manager > > Green Earth Energy > > davis at mckernongroup.com > > office: (802) 247-1200 > > mobile: (802) 989-1661 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarworks at gmail.com Thu Jun 11 09:14:44 2015 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal Khalsa) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2015 06:14:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fastening to light-guage steel framing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We never got a chance to use them but looked into them numerous times. A product called Rivstud. Essentially a rivet with a stud on top which you can mount the L foot to....worth looking into....especially if it is a big job. On Jun 11, 2015 4:13 AM, "Chris Mason" wrote: > I'm fond of the SnapNRack metal roof base. You can use it with any > suitable fastener. > http://www.snapnrack.com/metal-roof-base-simplified > On Jun 10, 2015 9:07 PM, "Davis Terrell" wrote: > >> Esteemed Wrenches, >> >> >> >> We are looking at a roof mounted PV system on a building with light gauge >> steel roof frame. Only attachment that looks to be compatible out of the >> box is the EcoFastenSolar Quickfoot because it uses OMG XHD screws which >> are intended for such an application. We have used this before and are >> comfortable with it, but anyone have any other products they have used >> successfully? I know no one here wants to give professional engineering >> advice (and I would not take it as such) but does anyone have any success >> stories or things to look out for? Thanks, >> >> >> >> >> >> Davis Terrell >> >> Project Manager >> >> Green Earth Energy >> >> davis at mckernongroup.com >> >> office: (802) 247-1200 >> >> mobile: (802) 989-1661 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Thu Jun 11 10:51:18 2015 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:51:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fastening to light-guage steel framing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20150611145127.5E87510815@che.dreamhost.com> I would be very wary of a riveted solution. A few years ago we had an engineer design a type of L foot attachment for a steel roof on a storage barn. He designs it to use blind stainless steel rivets, and we installed it with his supervision. It didn't survive a single winter here in upstate NY. We had to remove the array, install blocking and normal L feet to secure the array the next summer. The rivets tore through the sheet steel and many feet were no longer attached. It also caused a ground fault when conductors were abraded from metal movement. Sincerely, Glenn Burt Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. -----Original Message----- From: "Kirpal Khalsa" Sent: ‎6/‎11/‎2015 9:14 To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fastening to light-guage steel framing We never got a chance to use them but looked into them numerous times. A product called Rivstud. Essentially a rivet with a stud on top which you can mount the L foot to....worth looking into....especially if it is a big job. On Jun 11, 2015 4:13 AM, "Chris Mason" wrote: > I'm fond of the SnapNRack metal roof base. You can use it with any > suitable fastener. > http://www.snapnrack.com/metal-roof-base-simplified > On Jun 10, 2015 9:07 PM, "Davis Terrell" wrote: > >> Esteemed Wrenches, >> >> >> >> We are looking at a roof mounted PV system on a building with light gauge >> steel roof frame. Only attachment that looks to be compatible out of the >> box is the EcoFastenSolar Quickfoot because it uses OMG XHD screws which >> are intended for such an application. We have used this before and are >> comfortable with it, but anyone have any other products they have used >> successfully? I know no one here wants to give professional engineering >> advice (and I would not take it as such) but does anyone have any success >> stories or things to look out for? Thanks, >> >> >> >> >> >> Davis Terrell >> >> Project Manager >> >> Green Earth Energy >> >> davis at mckernongroup.com >> >> office: (802) 247-1200 >> >> mobile: (802) 989-1661 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Gary at IcarusSolarServices.com Thu Jun 11 11:27:43 2015 From: Gary at IcarusSolarServices.com (Gary Willett) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:27:43 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MidNite Solar SMA Relay Board (MNSMARB) In-Reply-To: <5578A3C2.2020501@midnitesolar.com> References: <5577AFFF.9010808@IcarusSolarServices.com> <5578A3C2.2020501@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: <5579A8EF.8070707@IcarusSolarServices.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davis at mckernongroup.com Thu Jun 11 13:44:31 2015 From: davis at mckernongroup.com (Davis Terrell) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2015 17:44:31 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fastening to light-guage steel framing Message-ID: Sorry for not being more specific. This is a "traditional" pitched roof in that it is sheathed with plywood and roofed with comp shingles, but the framing underneath is cold-formed light gauge steel. After some more research I am looking at the EcoFastenSolar Greenfasten1 with a ¼" SS TEK screw. Davis Terrell Project Manager Green Earth Energy davis at mckernongroup.com office: (802) 247-1200 mobile: (802) 989-1661 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Fri Jun 12 20:45:26 2015 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2015 17:45:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Recommendations on diversion load Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, We have been using AEE's HL-75 and HL-100 for many years but understand that product has been discontinued and have used the last one in stock. It was an ok product but we had additional sheet metal fabricated to space it away from the wall further. Curious what other wrenches are using for this? In particular needing something that can handle up to 1 kW @ 48 VDC nominal. Not really wanting to go back to the hacked up dryer elements of days earlier. Kevin From danbob88 at gmail.com Sat Jun 13 01:02:57 2015 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2015 23:02:57 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Recommendations on diversion load In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Kevin; I agree those dump loads were marginal as far as construction and capacity. I believe the actual manufacturer was Missouri Wind and Sun, the HL-75/100 units still show on video on their site. The riveted connections to the resistor lugs were not good, and backside heat problems as you mention, and serious expansion and contraction issues. Now they just sell the resistors, no enclosure. There is a need for a sturdy and reliable product here. Unfortunately getting a UL listing is so expensive.....but that may not be an issue for you out back of beyond Smithers, I know and love the area! The usual DC replacement water heater elements available everywhere have always worked fine for me. Another need for a product is one that also has a switchable 120VAC capability for shore power. At this time I don't know of any solutions for this situation that don't involve hacking together your own enclosure and air heating elements, and i would suggest a fan, as you are dumping power anyway. Best of luck and best regards; Dan Fink Buckville Energy IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 6:45 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > We have been using AEE's HL-75 and HL-100 for many years but understand > that product has been discontinued and have used the last one in stock. It > was an ok product but we had additional sheet metal fabricated to space it > away from the wall further. > > Curious what other wrenches are using for this? In particular needing > something that can handle up to 1 kW @ 48 VDC nominal. Not really wanting > to go back to the hacked up dryer elements of days earlier. > > Kevin > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Sat Jun 13 09:07:23 2015 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Shasta Daiku) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2015 06:07:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Recommendations on diversion load In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <67A3C819-C3E7-4158-9C58-1C3EBBDD37FE@gmail.com> Jerry Ostermeir at Alternative Power & Machine in Grants Pass Oregon fabricates custom diversion loads. Very high quality. It’s great to be able to specify exactly what the load is to be, and fine tune a system. Michael > On Jun 12, 2015, at 10:02 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > > Hi Kevin; > I agree those dump loads were marginal as far as construction and capacity. I believe the actual manufacturer was Missouri Wind and Sun, the HL-75/100 units still show on video on their site. The riveted connections to the resistor lugs were not good, and backside heat problems as you mention, and serious expansion and contraction issues. Now they just sell the resistors, no enclosure. There is a need for a sturdy and reliable product here. Unfortunately getting a UL listing is so expensive.....but that may not be an issue for you out back of beyond Smithers, I know and love the area! > The usual DC replacement water heater elements available everywhere have always worked fine for me. Another need for a product is one that also has a switchable 120VAC capability for shore power. > At this time I don't know of any solutions for this situation that don't involve hacking together your own enclosure and air heating elements, and i would suggest a fan, as you are dumping power anyway. > Best of luck and best regards; > > > Dan Fink > Buckville Energy > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > > On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 6:45 PM, Kevin Pegg > wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > We have been using AEE's HL-75 and HL-100 for many years but understand that product has been discontinued and have used the last one in stock. It was an ok product but we had additional sheet metal fabricated to space it away from the wall further. > > Curious what other wrenches are using for this? In particular needing something that can handle up to 1 kW @ 48 VDC nominal. Not really wanting to go back to the hacked up dryer elements of days earlier. > > Kevin > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gpgridtie at gmail.com Sat Jun 13 10:00:39 2015 From: gpgridtie at gmail.com (Bob Maynard) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2015 07:00:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Recommendations on diversion load In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Alternative Power and Machine makes a decent built diversion load. http://apmhydro.com/products/ Bob Maynard On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 10:02 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > Hi Kevin; > I agree those dump loads were marginal as far as construction and > capacity. I believe the actual manufacturer was Missouri Wind and Sun, the > HL-75/100 units still show on video on their site. The riveted connections > to the resistor lugs were not good, and backside heat problems as you > mention, and serious expansion and contraction issues. Now they just sell > the resistors, no enclosure. There is a need for a sturdy and reliable > product here. Unfortunately getting a UL listing is so expensive.....but > that may not be an issue for you out back of beyond Smithers, I know and > love the area! > The usual DC replacement water heater elements available everywhere have > always worked fine for me. Another need for a product is one that also has > a switchable 120VAC capability for shore power. > At this time I don't know of any solutions for this situation that don't > involve hacking together your own enclosure and air heating elements, and i > would suggest a fan, as you are dumping power anyway. > Best of luck and best regards; > > > Dan Fink > Buckville Energy > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > > On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 6:45 PM, Kevin Pegg > wrote: > >> Hi Wrenches, >> >> We have been using AEE's HL-75 and HL-100 for many years but understand >> that product has been discontinued and have used the last one in stock. It >> was an ok product but we had additional sheet metal fabricated to space it >> away from the wall further. >> >> Curious what other wrenches are using for this? In particular needing >> something that can handle up to 1 kW @ 48 VDC nominal. Not really wanting >> to go back to the hacked up dryer elements of days earlier. >> >> Kevin >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Jun 13 11:02:46 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay peltz) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2015 09:02:46 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Recommendations on diversion load In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: HI All, You can buy those exact products from Derik at hipowerhydro.com He has made a number of upgrades to reduce the bad connection problems and therefor increase life. jay On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 8:00 AM, Bob Maynard wrote: > Alternative Power and Machine makes a decent built diversion load. > http://apmhydro.com/products/ > > Bob Maynard > > On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 10:02 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > >> Hi Kevin; >> I agree those dump loads were marginal as far as construction and >> capacity. I believe the actual manufacturer was Missouri Wind and Sun, the >> HL-75/100 units still show on video on their site. The riveted connections >> to the resistor lugs were not good, and backside heat problems as you >> mention, and serious expansion and contraction issues. Now they just sell >> the resistors, no enclosure. There is a need for a sturdy and reliable >> product here. Unfortunately getting a UL listing is so expensive.....but >> that may not be an issue for you out back of beyond Smithers, I know and >> love the area! >> The usual DC replacement water heater elements available everywhere have >> always worked fine for me. Another need for a product is one that also >> > > > -- Jay Peltz Peltz Power jay.peltz at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirk at vtsolar.com Tue Jun 16 15:30:42 2015 From: kirk at vtsolar.com (Kirk) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2015 15:30:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aurora inverter protocol adapter Message-ID: <00BD3526-4E97-4BC6-B100-24CE29A9E8FB@vtsolar.com> Hello - looking for the part # of an ABB aurora to modbus RDU protocol adapter. I'm changing the monitoring platform of a 50kw system using Aurora pvi-6000 inverters. Thanks. Kirk Herander VSE Sent from a job site somewhere From chris at solarandwindfx.com Wed Jun 17 15:03:53 2015 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 15:03:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Finally, a simple battery backup switch/controller for Grid-Tied existing systems Message-ID: <015801d0a930$5ad04f70$1070ee50$@solarandwindfx.com> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Starlight Solar Power Systems Sent: Monday, 01 June, 2015 15:11 To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Finally, a simple battery backup switch/controller Many years ago I thought of something like this and wondered why it was not being made. It’s great to see a product arrive that will make battery backup direct and simple. No need for dump loads. I like it! http://www.morningstarcorp.com/backup-power-grid-tied-solar-systems/ Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems New Morningstar Charge Controller Is Now Available June 2015 https://staticapp.icpsc.com/icp/loadimage.php/mogile/1011583/92525fc96c03732570c02d1f677d6605/image/png Morningstar's New TriStar MPPT 600V™ Controller With DC Transfer Switch Is Now Available! https://staticapp.icpsc.com/icp/loadimage.php/mogile/1011583/c01065c510390efae9bac1ab9f16f6f0/image/png Morningstar's TriStar MPPT 600V Controller With DC Transfer Switch enables battery backup to existing grid-tied systems. It features: * Double pole, double throw DC Transfer Switch * Grid-tie inverter terminals * Parallel operation of multiple controllers from a single PV array * Single phase backup power on three phase systems * Lowest total cost for battery backup Please click on one of the links below to register for an upcoming Live Webinar to learn more about this controller and its DC coupled backup application (make sure to check your time zones). June 4, 2015 at 9am US Eastern Time June 4, 2015 at 2pm US Eastern Time June 4, 2015 at 9pm US Eastern Time Also, see the product application brochure and the three minute video. https://staticapp.icpsc.com/icp/loadimage.php/mogile/1011583/cc58068c263d9b1c0886751d2bc0a9bc/image/png http://staticapp.icpsc.com/icp/loadimage.php/mogile/1011583/76026bcbb5908d0a8a71cdb5fdc5da08/image/png http://staticapp.icpsc.com/icp/loadimage.php/mogile/1011583/eccc507e4826fc34dd305b60625840e1/image/png http://staticapp.icpsc.com/icp/loadimage.php/mogile/1011583/78ac3e31534fed1293e6b952047f6abf/image/png http://staticapp.icpsc.com/icp/loadimage.php/mogile/1011583/cbc490264a0ac2c91a20a9e20f04e0be/image/jpeg ©2015 Morningstar Corporation. All Rights Reserved. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image019.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1139 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dave at independentpowerllc.com Wed Jun 17 17:16:08 2015 From: dave at independentpowerllc.com (Dave) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 17:16:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Best replacement for SW4024 Message-ID: <005501d0a942$d9b83c50$8d28b4f0$@com> All in all what are the best options for replacement of a failed Trace SW4024. The home was off grid for years and now is operated primarily with the grid being used as to charge the batteries when the solar is deficient. There is a generator on site to back up the grid also. Utility grid is also used for some primary loads in the neighborhood (maple syrup production), but that is a separate system from the Trace. The inverter system is a relatively simple 120VAC deal (one inverter). I have not had my hands on the new Schneider inverters. Are they the best swap in for this home? - Relative time saving ease for the AC and DC wiring is fairly important, but not the only consideration. Thanks, David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-888-7194 802-371-8678 cell -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Wed Jun 17 17:40:34 2015 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 14:40:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Best replacement for SW4024 Message-ID: If was my customer, I'd advise an XW series inverter, as it has dual AC inputs. You can have one for grid, one for gen backup. XW's are native 120/240 but you can field adapt to 120V if it's easier to wire in with existing wiring. If site has any surplus power has capability to synch with grid and back feed. Could do the same thing with an SW or Magnum with single AC input and external transfer but not as elegant and simple. I'd not recommend the new SW inverter. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of Dave Sent: June 17, 2015 2:16 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Best replacement for SW4024 All in all what are the best options for replacement of a failed Trace SW4024. The home was off grid for years and now is operated primarily with the grid being used as to charge the batteries when the solar is deficient. There is a generator on site to back up the grid also. Utility grid is also used for some primary loads in the neighborhood (maple syrup production), but that is a separate system from the Trace. The inverter system is a relatively simple 120VAC deal (one inverter). I have not had my hands on the new Schneider inverters. Are they the best swap in for this home? - Relative time saving ease for the AC and DC wiring is fairly important, but not the only consideration. Thanks, David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-888-7194 802-371-8678 cell -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Wed Jun 17 14:53:22 2015 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (Chris Daum) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 12:53:22 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Seeking a single Sanyo module... In-Reply-To: <556FD7D6.80600@solarray.com> Message-ID: <748C2EF71D974BF48DACA5BF27661DA1@OasisChris> ...an HIP195BA5. Anybody got one? If so, please contact me off list. Thanks! Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 406-777-0830 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Wed Jun 17 20:18:50 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 18:18:50 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Best replacement for SW4024 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <74C1EDCD-84CF-40A7-91A0-BB09DB56A970@sindelarsolar.com> > On Jun 17, 2015, at 3:40 PM, "Kevin Pegg" wrote: > > I'd not recommend the new SW inverter. > Kevin Kevin, Why not? While I have only installed two to date, both have performed flawlessly, and I kinda like them. What is your experience? Allan Sindelar, Sindelarsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed Jun 17 20:34:58 2015 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 20:34:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Best replacement for SW4024 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000601d0a95e$9c0026e0$d40074a0$@burt@glbcc.com> I was unaware that Magnum made an inverter that could work in grid interactive mode, as the SW could? Glenn From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Pegg Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 5:41 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Best replacement for SW4024 If was my customer, I'd advise an XW series inverter, as it has dual AC inputs. You can have one for grid, one for gen backup. XW's are native 120/240 but you can field adapt to 120V if it's easier to wire in with existing wiring. If site has any surplus power has capability to synch with grid and back feed. Could do the same thing with an SW or Magnum with single AC input and external transfer but not as elegant and simple. I'd not recommend the new SW inverter. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of Dave Sent: June 17, 2015 2:16 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Best replacement for SW4024 All in all what are the best options for replacement of a failed Trace SW4024. The home was off grid for years and now is operated primarily with the grid being used as to charge the batteries when the solar is deficient. There is a generator on site to back up the grid also. Utility grid is also used for some primary loads in the neighborhood (maple syrup production), but that is a separate system from the Trace. The inverter system is a relatively simple 120VAC deal (one inverter). I have not had my hands on the new Schneider inverters. Are they the best swap in for this home? - Relative time saving ease for the AC and DC wiring is fairly important, but not the only consideration. Thanks, David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-888-7194 802-371-8678 cell -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com Wed Jun 17 20:38:02 2015 From: solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com (Solar Energy Solutions) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 00:38:02 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Seeking a single Sanyo module... In-Reply-To: <748C2EF71D974BF48DACA5BF27661DA1@OasisChris> References: <748C2EF71D974BF48DACA5BF27661DA1@OasisChris> Message-ID: <439362017.971174.1434587882761.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>  We had a great experience dealing with Jim.  However, we had to send him back to for some rather aggressive pencil sharpening. Jim Dunphy Group Manager of Operations Panasonic Enterprise Solutions Company  Jim.Dunphy at us.panasonic.com T 201-392-6776 F 201-392-4379 C 201-214-7185   Panasonic Enterprise Solutions Company PESCO, 5th Floor Two Riverfront Plaza Newark, NJ 07102  Andrew KoyaanisqatsiPresidentSolar Energy Solutions, Inc.Since 1987,Moving Portland and Beyond to an Environmentally Sustainable Future.503-238-4502 www.SolarEnergyOregon.com "Better one's House too little one daythan too big all the Year after." On Wednesday, June 17, 2015 4:57 PM, Chris Daum wrote: ...an HIP195BA5.  Anybody got one?  If so, please contact me off list. Thanks! Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 406-777-0830 fax www.oasismontana.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at independentpowerllc.com Wed Jun 17 20:46:07 2015 From: dave at independentpowerllc.com (Dave) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 20:46:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Best replacement for SW4024 In-Reply-To: <74C1EDCD-84CF-40A7-91A0-BB09DB56A970@sindelarsolar.com> References: <74C1EDCD-84CF-40A7-91A0-BB09DB56A970@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <008401d0a960$29ffd110$7dff7330$@com> Allan, Is the new SW you are referring to the Schneider Conext SW and, or, Conext SW-NA? Dave Palumbo From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 8:19 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Best replacement for SW4024 On Jun 17, 2015, at 3:40 PM, "Kevin Pegg" wrote: I'd not recommend the new SW inverter. Kevin Kevin, Why not? While I have only installed two to date, both have performed flawlessly, and I kinda like them. What is your experience? Allan Sindelar, Sindelarsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 22:39:16 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 16:39:16 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Best replacement for SW4024 In-Reply-To: <74C1EDCD-84CF-40A7-91A0-BB09DB56A970@sindelarsolar.com> References: <74C1EDCD-84CF-40A7-91A0-BB09DB56A970@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: You can also use the outback radian, uses less space Jerry On Jun 17, 2015 2:19 PM, "Allan Sindelar" wrote: > > > On Jun 17, 2015, at 3:40 PM, "Kevin Pegg" > wrote: > > > I'd not recommend the new SW inverter. > Kevin > > > Kevin, > Why not? While I have only installed two to date, both have performed > flawlessly, and I kinda like them. What is your experience? > > Allan Sindelar, > Sindelarsolar.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 20:39:44 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 18:39:44 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Best replacement for SW4024 In-Reply-To: <5582126f.a516460a.3b47.ffffdbebSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <5582126f.a516460a.3b47.ffffdbebSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Magnum makes their 4000 watt 120v RE series with 2 AC inputs. It won't sell to the grid, but has AC coupling Jay Peltz power. Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 17, 2015, at 6:34 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: > > I was unaware that Magnum made an inverter that could work in grid interactive mode, as the SW could? > > Glenn > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Pegg > Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 5:41 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Best replacement for SW4024 > > If was my customer, I'd advise an XW series inverter, as it has dual AC inputs. You can have one for grid, one for gen backup. XW's are native 120/240 but you can field adapt to 120V if it's easier to wire in with existing wiring. If site has any surplus power has capability to synch with grid and back feed. > > Could do the same thing with an SW or Magnum with single AC input and external transfer but not as elegant and simple. > > I'd not recommend the new SW inverter. > > Kevin > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of Dave > Sent: June 17, 2015 2:16 PM > To: 'RE-wrenches' > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Best replacement for SW4024 > > All in all what are the best options for replacement of a failed Trace SW4024. The home was off grid for years and now is operated primarily with the grid being used as to charge the batteries when the solar is deficient. There is a generator on site to back up the grid also. Utility grid is also used for some primary loads in the neighborhood (maple syrup production), but that is a separate system from the Trace. > > The inverter system is a relatively simple 120VAC deal (one inverter). > > I have not had my hands on the new Schneider inverters. Are they the best swap in for this home? > - Relative time saving ease for the AC and DC wiring is fairly important, but not the only consideration. > > Thanks, > > David Palumbo > Independent Power LLC > 462 Solar Way Drive > Hyde Park, VT 05655 > 802-888-7194 > 802-371-8678 cell > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Thu Jun 18 08:30:44 2015 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (Howard "Scot" Arey) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 07:30:44 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Repetitive and unknown arc-fault codes with this combination...Sunpreme bi-facial and Fronius IG Message-ID: <001901d0a9c2$9950bfe0$cbf23fa0$@solarcentex.com> I need some help please! I'm quickly losing credibility with two of my customers. We have two installations with Sunpreme GxB 350 bi-facial modules and Fronius IG inverters. They keep throwing Error code 240 - arc fault on the Fronius IG. We've been up and down these installation three times checking connections, replacing connectors, tightening connections, checking for chafed wires. Nothing to cause any visible angst. The team here is wondering is perhaps the module itself might be the source of the problem, with some DC arcing inside the J-Box. Any thoughts? We can't open the j-box on an broken module (be careful handling frameless glass on glass modules :)) because there doesn't appear to anything accessible with modern potted j-boxes. As for the conditions when we get these arc fault codes - typically the peak of a sunny day when they're making max power. Each of the installations is a bit different. On the 7KW install with Fronius 7.5, we've run the two strings (10 modules each) back to the inverter separately. On the 10.5KW install with the Fronius 10.0, we ran 3 strings of 10 to a combiner box, then one set of conductor back to the Fronius 10.0 where we used the distribution plate to spead the amperage across the six string input channels. I'm stuck - any thoughts on other potential arc-fault causes? Howard "Scot" Arey 254-300-1228 scot.arey at solarcentex.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 31944 bytes Desc: not available URL: From matt at solar-energy-solutions.com Thu Jun 18 08:41:30 2015 From: matt at solar-energy-solutions.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 08:41:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Repetitive and unknown arc-fault codes with this combination...Sunpreme bi-facial and Fronius IG In-Reply-To: <001901d0a9c2$9950bfe0$cbf23fa0$@solarcentex.com> References: <001901d0a9c2$9950bfe0$cbf23fa0$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: <1a533d367b439dca3363f497732982e3.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> How quickly, after reset, do you see a new arc-fault error? Same day? Month later? Have you tested string volts/amps? On Thu, June 18, 2015 8:30 am, Howard \"Scot\" Arey wrote: > I need some help please! I'm quickly losing credibility with two of my > customers. > > > > We have two installations with Sunpreme GxB 350 bi-facial modules and > Fronius IG inverters. They keep throwing Error code 240 - arc fault on > the Fronius IG. > > > > > We've been up and down these installation three times checking > connections, replacing connectors, tightening connections, checking for > chafed wires. Nothing to cause any visible angst. > > > > > The team here is wondering is perhaps the module itself might be the > source of the problem, with some DC arcing inside the J-Box. Any > thoughts? We can't open the j-box on an broken module (be careful > handling frameless glass on glass modules :)) because there doesn't appear > to anything accessible with modern potted j-boxes. > > > > As for the conditions when we get these arc fault codes - typically the > peak of a sunny day when they're making max power. > > > > Each of the installations is a bit different. On the 7KW install with > Fronius 7.5, we've run the two strings (10 modules each) back to the > inverter separately. On the 10.5KW install with the Fronius 10.0, we ran > 3 > strings of 10 to a combiner box, then one set of conductor back to the > Fronius 10.0 where we used the distribution plate to spead the amperage > across the six string input channels. > > > > I'm stuck - any thoughts on other potential arc-fault causes? > > > > > Howard "Scot" Arey > > > 254-300-1228 > > > scot.arey at solarcentex.com > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht > ml > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions LLC (877) 312-7456 matt at solar-energy-solutions.com From august at luminalt.com Thu Jun 18 09:40:46 2015 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 06:40:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Repetitive and unknown arc-fault codes with this combination...Sunpreme bi-facial and Fronius IG In-Reply-To: <001901d0a9c2$9950bfe0$cbf23fa0$@solarcentex.com> References: <001901d0a9c2$9950bfe0$cbf23fa0$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: <4c2e954d83cb2d31e6744a4b0076334a@mail.gmail.com> Howard, We haven’t installed Fronius inverters for a while, but I have some similar experience with SMA and ABB arc-fault inverters. In only one case did we have an issue where we actually had a workmanship issue – we found an MC4 connector where the terminal wasn’t fully seated in the housing. We had another case with a SunPower array where we had to update the firmware in the SMA Tripower because it was falsely tripping. We had many sites with ABB/Power-One inverters where the arc sensors needed to be replaced. We have a few sites with intermittent arc faults that were reset and haven’t occurred again – I still don’t know what caused those. After researching and speaking with tech support many times, I believe that it is also possible that an AC-side arc or surge can cause an arc fault trip. Examples could be a well pump surging, a old treadmill or other appliance, faulty breaker, grid issue, etc. It seems unlikely, however, that this is your case if the same problem is occurring on two different sites. All that said, I think you are on the right track in thinking it might be an issue with the Sunpreme modules or a compatibility issue between the Fronius and Sunpreme. You may need to get the manufacturers involved. If they know what is good for them, they will give you ample support to fix the problem. Good luck! Best, August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Howard "Scot" Arey *Sent:* Thursday, June 18, 2015 5:31 AM *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Repetitive and unknown arc-fault codes with this combination...Sunpreme bi-facial and Fronius IG I need some help please! I’m quickly losing credibility with two of my customers. We have two installations with Sunpreme GxB 350 bi-facial modules and Fronius IG inverters. They keep throwing Error code 240 – arc fault on the Fronius IG. We’ve been up and down these installation three times checking connections, replacing connectors, tightening connections, checking for chafed wires. Nothing to cause any visible angst. The team here is wondering is perhaps the module itself might be the source of the problem, with some DC arcing inside the J-Box. Any thoughts? We can’t open the j-box on an broken module (be careful handling frameless glass on glass modules J) because there doesn’t appear to anything accessible with modern potted j-boxes. As for the conditions when we get these arc fault codes – typically the peak of a sunny day when they’re making max power. Each of the installations is a bit different. On the 7KW install with Fronius 7.5, we’ve run the two strings (10 modules each) back to the inverter separately. On the 10.5KW install with the Fronius 10.0, we ran 3 strings of 10 to a combiner box, then one set of conductor back to the Fronius 10.0 where we used the distribution plate to spead the amperage across the six string input channels. I’m stuck – any thoughts on other potential arc-fault causes? *Howard “Scot” Arey* 254-300-1228 scot.arey at solarcentex.com [image: logo from letterhead] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 31944 bytes Desc: not available URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Thu Jun 18 10:31:26 2015 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 10:31:26 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Repetitive and unknown arc-fault codes with this combination...Sunpreme bi-facial and Fronius IG In-Reply-To: <001901d0a9c2$9950bfe0$cbf23fa0$@solarcentex.com> References: <001901d0a9c2$9950bfe0$cbf23fa0$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: <20150618143137.9867910BA3@che.dreamhost.com> Have you performed insulation resistance tests on the DC conductors (megger)? Sincerely, Glenn Burt Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. -----Original Message----- From: "Howard Scot Arey" Sent: ‎6/‎18/‎2015 8:30 To: "re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org" Subject: [RE-wrenches] Repetitive and unknown arc-fault codes with this combination...Sunpreme bi-facial and Fronius IG I need some help please! I'm quickly losing credibility with two of my customers. We have two installations with Sunpreme GxB 350 bi-facial modules and Fronius IG inverters. They keep throwing Error code 240 - arc fault on the Fronius IG. We've been up and down these installation three times checking connections, replacing connectors, tightening connections, checking for chafed wires. Nothing to cause any visible angst. The team here is wondering is perhaps the module itself might be the source of the problem, with some DC arcing inside the J-Box. Any thoughts? We can't open the j-box on an broken module (be careful handling frameless glass on glass modules :)) because there doesn't appear to anything accessible with modern potted j-boxes. As for the conditions when we get these arc fault codes - typically the peak of a sunny day when they're making max power. Each of the installations is a bit different. On the 7KW install with Fronius 7.5, we've run the two strings (10 modules each) back to the inverter separately. On the 10.5KW install with the Fronius 10.0, we ran 3 strings of 10 to a combiner box, then one set of conductor back to the Fronius 10.0 where we used the distribution plate to spead the amperage across the six string input channels. I'm stuck - any thoughts on other potential arc-fault causes? Howard "Scot" Arey 254-300-1228 scot.arey at solarcentex.com [The entire original message is not included.] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 13:06:57 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 07:06:57 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Repetitive and unknown arc-fault codes with this combination...Sunpreme bi-facial and Fronius IG In-Reply-To: <20150618143137.9867910BA3@che.dreamhost.com> References: <001901d0a9c2$9950bfe0$cbf23fa0$@solarcentex.com> <20150618143137.9867910BA3@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: We had an installation with 3, 7 let SMA's we did the same checks you did. We found a AC contactor that was causing the problem, SMA agrees that this can happen. Just a thought Jerry On Jun 18, 2015 4:31 AM, "Glenn Burt" wrote: > Have you performed insulation resistance tests on the DC conductors > (megger)? > > Sincerely, > Glenn Burt > Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. > ------------------------------ > From: Howard Scot Arey > Sent: ‎6/‎18/‎2015 8:30 > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Repetitive and unknown arc-fault codes with this > combination...Sunpreme bi-facial and Fronius IG > > I need some help please! I’m quickly losing credibility with two of my > customers. > > > > We have two installations with Sunpreme GxB 350 bi-facial modules and > Fronius IG inverters. They keep throwing Error code 240 – arc fault on the > Fronius IG. > > > > We’ve been up and down these installation three times checking > connections, replacing connectors, tightening connections, checking for > chafed wires. Nothing to cause any visible angst. > > > > The team here is wondering is perhaps the module itself might be the > source of the problem, with some DC arcing inside the J-Box. Any > thoughts? We can’t open the j-box on an broken module (be careful handling > frameless glass on glass modules J) because there doesn’t appear to > anything accessible with modern potted j-boxes. > > > > As for the conditions when we get these arc fault codes – typically the > peak of a sunny day when they’re making max power. > > > > Each of the installations is a bit different. On the 7KW install with > Fronius 7.5, we’ve run the two strings (10 modules each) back to the > inverter separately. On the 10.5KW install with the Fronius 10.0, we ran 3 > strings of 10 to a combiner box, then one set of conductor back to the > Fronius 10.0 where we used the distribution plate to spead the amperage > across the six string input channels. > > > > I’m stuck – any thoughts on other potential arc-fault causes? > > > > *Howard “Scot” Arey* > > 254-300-1228 > > scot.arey at solarcentex.com > > > > [image: logo from letterhead] > > > > [The entire original message is not included.] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Thu Jun 18 19:39:09 2015 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 16:39:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] flat concrete tile product of choice Message-ID: <16c4ee59284f9d0750bc769aed65c1d8@mail.gmail.com> Hi Wrenches, We have an upcoming install on a flat concrete roof. See attached pic. We’ve used the Unirac tile hook, Pro Solar TileTrac, and QuickMount QBase products all with mixed results. I would like to find something better. Does anyone have a concrete tile product that they like? Best, August August Goers Luminalt Energy Corporation m: 415.559.1525 o:415.641.4000 august at luminalt.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: flatconcretetile (Small).jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 87040 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tump at swnl.net Fri Jun 19 09:15:38 2015 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2015 09:15:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Repetitive and unknown arc-fault codes with this combination...Sunpreme bi-facial and Fronius IG In-Reply-To: <001901d0a9c2$9950bfe0$cbf23fa0$@solarcentex.com> References: <001901d0a9c2$9950bfe0$cbf23fa0$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: Have you tried to isolate the inverters & / or each of the PV strings , shut 1 down disconnecting any DC source and see if you get your fault code. I am assuming that you are getting the same fault code for both inverters, correct? There are no communication cabling between the inverters. I would begin by isolating each string one at a time. yes this can be quite time consuming if this fault is not occurring immediately. both DCSC, (source circuits) are they run inside the same conduit from array, then breaking out to their respective inverters? Isolate isolate isolate! On Jun 18, 2015, at 8:30 AM, Howard Scot Arey wrote: > I need some help please! I’m quickly losing credibility with two of my customers. > > We have two installations with Sunpreme GxB 350 bi-facial modules and Fronius IG inverters. They keep throwing Error code 240 – arc fault on the Fronius IG. > > We’ve been up and down these installation three times checking connections, replacing connectors, tightening connections, checking for chafed wires. Nothing to cause any visible angst. > > The team here is wondering is perhaps the module itself might be the source of the problem, with some DC arcing inside the J-Box. Any thoughts? We can’t open the j-box on an broken module (be careful handling frameless glass on glass modules J) because there doesn’t appear to anything accessible with modern potted j-boxes. > > As for the conditions when we get these arc fault codes – typically the peak of a sunny day when they’re making max power. > > Each of the installations is a bit different. On the 7KW install with Fronius 7.5, we’ve run the two strings (10 modules each) back to the inverter separately. On the 10.5KW install with the Fronius 10.0, we ran 3 strings of 10 to a combiner box, then one set of conductor back to the Fronius 10.0 where we used the distribution plate to spead the amperage across the six string input channels. > > I’m stuck – any thoughts on other potential arc-fault causes? > > Howard “Scot” Arey > 254-300-1228 > scot.arey at solarcentex.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirk at vtsolar.com Fri Jun 19 15:52:39 2015 From: kirk at vtsolar.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2015 15:52:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aurora inverter protocol adapter In-Reply-To: <00BD3526-4E97-4BC6-B100-24CE29A9E8FB@vtsolar.com> References: <00BD3526-4E97-4BC6-B100-24CE29A9E8FB@vtsolar.com> Message-ID: <001c01d0aac9$7fb57050$7f2050f0$@vtsolar.com> PVI-RS485-MODBUS-STRING - that's the part# I'm looking for. Can't find it anywhere in stock. ABB has at least a two week lead time. Pls contact me off-list if you know where I can find one. Thanks. Kirk Herander VT Solar, LLC Proven PV provider since 1991 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirk Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2015 3:31 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aurora inverter protocol adapter Hello - looking for the part # of an ABB aurora to modbus RDU protocol adapter. I'm changing the monitoring platform of a 50kw system using Aurora pvi-6000 inverters. Thanks. Kirk Herander VSE Sent from a job site somewhere _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From allan at sindelarsolar.com Mon Jun 22 12:59:13 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 10:59:13 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid deep well pumps In-Reply-To: <55280DF6.6010509@aprsworld.com> References: <52528.73.167.49.246.1428686715.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com> <552808AB.9090007@solarray.com> <55280DF6.6010509@aprsworld.com> Message-ID: <55883EE1.8030107@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Mon Jun 22 13:07:42 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 11:07:42 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid deep well pumps In-Reply-To: <55883EE1.8030107@sindelarsolar.com> References: <52528.73.167.49.246.1428686715.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com> <552808AB.9090007@solarray.com> <55280DF6.6010509@aprsworld.com> <55883EE1.8030107@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <01a701d0ad0d$f4627e20$dd277a60$@com> One thing to add on the horizontal installation: Even with the soft start I have had the pump break & unscrew partially Sched 40 PVC pipe in more than one installation. I would add a couple of horizontal pieces of unistrut and (I think its 2.5 or 3") unistrut clamps around the pump to keep the pump from twisting. It is an un-needed service call to avoid. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar Sent: Monday, June 22, 2015 10:59 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid deep well pumps Adding to James' post about Grundfos SQ pumps: The 1/2 HP models (only) are available in 115V as well as 230V. The 5SQ05-180 pumps around 5-6 gpm at up to about 300' of TDH, or 200' plus pressurizing in a single-pump installation. This makes it an ideal replacement in certain situations where existing 24V DC pumps have failed or wells have dropped and inverted AC is available, but only 120V, such as Outback FX and old Trace SW. It's soft-start, so there's no surge and no flickering lights. I have used this solution several times successfully, and just installed one in place of a failed Lorentz running at 24V. This pump can also safely be laid horizontally in a storage tank and used as a pressurizing pump. Both the 5SQ05-140 and the 5SQ05-180 will work in this application, controlled by a standard pressure switch. I will generally mount the pump in a sleeve (also offered by Grundfos), with spacers to keep the pump off of the tank bottom. This is a good approach for rainwater catchment, as the pump will tolerate some sediment, unlike some better surface pressurizing pumps. Allan Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell On 4/10/2015 11:52 AM, James Jefferson Jarvis wrote: The SQ is not just a simple AC motor. It has the soft start and pretty much all of the same features as the SQE, besides the variable speed that makes the constant pressure work well. http://www.grundfos.com/products/find-product/sq.html I use SQ on my own two wells. Both run perfectly on Magnum MS4024PAE (single inverter). Both are around 300 ft deep with ~100' static water level. Use 3/4 HP in one and 1 HP in the other. No starting surges. Can't even tell it is running. Can run 12 AWG wire out and down the well and voltage drop won't cause them to run any slower. -James Jarvis APRS World, LLC http://www.aprsworld.com On 4/10/2015 12:30 PM, Ray Walters wrote: I think you've started a good rundown of the three pump lines, I believe they all use the same basic multistage pump head. The SQ line has just a simple AC motor; no constant pressure, and the usual starting surge associated with regular AC submersibles. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 4/10/2015 11:25 AM, Howie Michaelson wrote: Thanks everyone for the feedback - as always the best source of hands on info anywhere! So as I understand it, the 2 basic choices are the SQ,SQE line or the SQFlex line. Advantages of the SQE are: * cheaper * Constant pressure Advantages of the SQFlex are: * More efficient (how much?) * Can run on AC or DC Both are soft start, and both can run without the controller. No controller looses the display readout and a couple other smaller bells and whistles, but otherwise no operational change. I haven't be able to determine the difference between the SQ & SQE lines. Are there any durability differences between the SQ, SQE, and SQF lines? Howie _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Mon Jun 22 14:31:59 2015 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 12:31:59 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module defect? Cell interconnections Message-ID: <11594F80-AB82-4236-AFE3-B510F3027FFC@skyfireenergy.com> Wrenches, Have any of you noticed misaligned cell interconnections like the ones in the attached photo? I'm hesitant to use these and I already returned another module back to the distributer that had several cells with misaligned conductors as well, but just came across these in the order we just picked up. I'm waiting for a reply from he mfgr but in the meantime I'm wondering if any of you have seen this and should we be concerned with quality or safety (arcing?) in the short or long term? Thanks, Benn -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: photo.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 319129 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 From brian at solarenergy.org Mon Jun 22 14:39:55 2015 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 12:39:55 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module defect? Cell interconnections In-Reply-To: <11594F80-AB82-4236-AFE3-B510F3027FFC@skyfireenergy.com> References: <11594F80-AB82-4236-AFE3-B510F3027FFC@skyfireenergy.com> Message-ID: I've seen similar on what I considered to be some "low grade" modules used on a project in Peru. Returning them / doing anything about it wasn't an option due to the remote nature, but I sure didn't like it. Best case, you lose a tiny bit of current due to cell coverage; worst case is internal arcing at some point during their life. I have to imagine this is outside of the mfg's spec/tolerances, though I question how they got through quality control, and I wouldn't want to put them on my roof for the next several decades. Drunk/tired robots I suppose... Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 PV Curriculum Developer and Instructor Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 12:31 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > Wrenches, > Have any of you noticed misaligned cell interconnections like the ones in > the attached photo? > I'm hesitant to use these and I already returned another module back to > the distributer that had several cells with misaligned conductors as well, > but just came across these in the order we just picked up. > I'm waiting for a reply from he mfgr but in the meantime I'm wondering if > any of you have seen this and should we be concerned with quality or safety > (arcing?) in the short or long term? > > Thanks, > Benn > > > > > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy Inc. > 780-906-7807 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Tue Jun 23 17:42:58 2015 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2015 15:42:58 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module defect? Cell interconnections In-Reply-To: <11594F80-AB82-4236-AFE3-B510F3027FFC@skyfireenergy.com> References: <11594F80-AB82-4236-AFE3-B510F3027FFC@skyfireenergy.com> Message-ID: Thanks for your comments Brian. I would also consider these to be "low grade", even though we did not order or pay for "low grade". I did get in touch with the module manufacturer and found out that these did sneak past their QC checkpoint. I was told that their general tolerance for the bus/ribbon alignment is within 1/2 the ribbon width. I was told that internal arcing is not a concern here because the individual cell is at the same potential, so arcing should not happen with the ribbon/bus being misaligned. Yes, the small amount of cell shading will reduce output, but it is a minute amount of shading, so the loss is negligible.(?) I would appreciate any feedback from any other module manufacturers on this, if we have any on this list? Benn *Benn Kilburn * CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc 6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7 P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com [image: email] [image: facebook] [image: twitter] [image: linkedin] [image: google] [image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal] On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 12:31 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > Wrenches, > Have any of you noticed misaligned cell interconnections like the ones in > the attached photo? > I'm hesitant to use these and I already returned another module back to > the distributer that had several cells with misaligned conductors as well, > but just came across these in the order we just picked up. > I'm waiting for a reply from he mfgr but in the meantime I'm wondering if > any of you have seen this and should we be concerned with quality or safety > (arcing?) in the short or long term? > > Thanks, > Benn > > > > > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy Inc. > 780-906-7807 > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Jun 23 20:31:16 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2015 18:31:16 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Genasun Message-ID: <5589FA54.306@solarray.com> HI All; Anyone heard of or tried these controllers: https://genasun.com/products-store/mppt-solar-charge-controllers/golf-cart-solar-charge-boost-controllers/ They seem like a great idea: use a single 60 cell module to charge a 36v or 48v golfcart battery pack. The good old 60 cell (39" x 65") is a good fit for a golf cart roof, without becoming a head banger. Unfortunately the Genasun seems to be obsolete before even getting any where; it is limited to 8 amps of input current which is less than 250 watts for a typical 60 cell module. (I can't even find any modules that low a power now) We called the manu, and their support said we could only push the controller to maybe 8.2 amps.....I've tried other layouts with 12 v modules, and it either doesn't fit or negates any benefits from this controller. As always, thanks in advance for your input. -- R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Wed Jun 24 08:12:33 2015 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2015 08:12:33 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Genasun In-Reply-To: <5589FA54.306@solarray.com> References: <5589FA54.306@solarray.com> Message-ID: Ray, Timing is everything. I wish they had been around 5 years ago. My golf cart that has been plug in free for 5 years could have used that. Guess I continue with the 3 Sunwize 80 watt panels. I was having trouble finding a good outdoor charge controller until Midnite came out with the BRAT. Just hooking that up now to prevent overcharging. John On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 8:31 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > HI All; > > Anyone heard of or tried these controllers: > > https://genasun.com/products-store/mppt-solar-charge-controllers/golf-cart-solar-charge-boost-controllers/ > > They seem like a great idea: use a single 60 cell module to charge a 36v > or 48v golfcart battery pack. The good old 60 cell (39" x 65") is a good > fit for a golf cart roof, without becoming a head banger. Unfortunately the > Genasun seems to be obsolete before even getting any where; it is limited > to 8 amps of input current which is less than 250 watts for a typical 60 > cell module. (I can't even find any modules that low a power now) We > called the manu, and their support said we could only push the controller > to maybe 8.2 amps.....I've tried other layouts with 12 v modules, and it > either doesn't fit or negates any benefits from this controller. > > As always, thanks in advance for your input. > > -- > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From garrison at solarserviceinc.com Wed Jun 24 09:09:01 2015 From: garrison at solarserviceinc.com (Garrison Riegel) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2015 08:09:01 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Genasun In-Reply-To: <5589FA54.306@solarray.com> References: <5589FA54.306@solarray.com> Message-ID: <004401d0ae7e$f0c180f0$d24482d0$@solarserviceinc.com> Looks like a good fit for either a SunPower or Kyocera. Although with SunPower you might be paying as much for the single module as you did for the cart... Garrison Riegel PV Operations Manager | Solar Service Inc [p] 847-677-0950 | garrison at solarserviceinc.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalT -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2015 7:31 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Genasun HI All; Anyone heard of or tried these controllers: https://genasun.com/products-store/mppt-solar-charge-controllers/golf-cart-s olar-charge-boost-controllers/ They seem like a great idea: use a single 60 cell module to charge a 36v or 48v golfcart battery pack. The good old 60 cell (39" x 65") is a good fit for a golf cart roof, without becoming a head banger. Unfortunately the Genasun seems to be obsolete before even getting any where; it is limited to 8 amps of input current which is less than 250 watts for a typical 60 cell module. (I can't even find any modules that low a power now) We called the manu, and their support said we could only push the controller to maybe 8.2 amps.....I've tried other layouts with 12 v modules, and it either doesn't fit or negates any benefits from this controller. As always, thanks in advance for your input. -- R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From dana at ecotechenergy.com Wed Jun 24 17:55:33 2015 From: dana at ecotechenergy.com (Dana Brandt) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2015 14:55:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack In-Reply-To: References: <20130601003227.8A69B6B8227@homiemail-a52.g.dreamhost.com> <00e101ce5e75$b6c03f00$2440bd00$@1scom.net> <1370097670.35860.YahooMailNeo@web2803.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <9F9D749A-4DB6-4A49-9B56-A5021C5B30C6@aeonsolar.com> <1391622304.14269.YahooMailNeo@web2805.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Jason, We've used Unirac for years but have been contemplating Ironridge. I'm curious what your experience was and why you went back to Unirac? Anyone else have input on best racking systems for flush-mounted residential systems on comp roof? Thanks, Dana Dana Brandt Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC www.ecotechenergy.com dana at ecotechenergy.com 360.318.7646 On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:09 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > By Snap N Rack, you mean Sun Run... > > > http://cleantechnica.com/2014/02/05/sunrun-acquires-rec-solars-residential-business-aee-solar-snapnrack-means/ > > I'm curious if these vertical integrators will still make their acquired > brands available to small dealers through distribution. When SolarCity > snatched up Zep, I had concerns about being able to service or add onto > existing Zep systems we installed. That's definitely a concern going > forward, and reason to perhaps stick with the most compatible racking > solutions available. We used IronRidge for a while, which is largely > compatible with Unirac, but now we're back on the Unirac bandwagon. > > Interesting times... > > > Jason Szumlanski > > ​Fafco Solar​ > > > > On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Max Balchowsky wrote: > >> We have been using Snap N' Rack for a while, Have lots of installs in >> Hawaii - so far no problems, I like the convenience of the design for >> snapping in the slider nut in mid rail, and also the ability to install the >> panels flush with the end of the rails…. >> >> Max Balchowsky >> Design Engineer >> SEE Systems >> 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 >> Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 >> 760-403-6810 >> "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Allen Frishman >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 5, 2014 6:17 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack >> >> I am curious about the mid clamps on the snapnrack. The flange that >> rests on top of the solar panel frame is so small ~ 3/16". Anyone >> experience any problems with these failing in a big storm? With solar >> panel frames not being square it is nice to have a little extra to grab - I >> am always curious as to why these clips are made with such a small area to >> hold the panels down. >> >> All feedback on these clips is appreciated. >> *Al Frishman* >> AeonSolar >> *(917) 699-6641 - cell* >> *(888) 460-2867* >> *www.aeonsolar.com * >> >> On Jun 1, 2013, at 10:41 AM, Max Balchowsky wrote: >> >> Have installed last three systems (35Kw)with snap n rack. >> love it.... >> >> Max Balchowsky >> Design Engineer >> SEE Systems >> 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 >> Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 >> 760-403-6810 >> "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Solarguy >> *To:* 'RE-wrenches' >> *Sent:* Friday, May 31, 2013 10:11 PM >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack >> >> The only complaint with the Snapnrack rails is the thin wall can easily >> be distorted. This will allow the nut to drop out of its groove. Love the >> universal end clamps but have learned to assemble every one to check for >> proper fit before getting on the roof. >> Jim Duncan >> -----Original Message----- >> From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto: >> re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake >> Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 7:32 PM >> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> How would you rate the SnapNrack mounting systems against Unirac and >> other mounting systems? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> Preferences >> § >> 1 >> 2 >> 3 >> 4 >> 5 >> 6 >> 7 >> 8 >> 9 >> 0 >> - >> = >> Backspace >> Tab >> q >> w >> e >> r >> t >> y >> u >> i >> o >> p >> [ >> ] >> Return >> capslock >> a >> s >> d >> f >> g >> h >> j >> k >> l >> ; >> ' >> \ >> shift >> ` >> z >> x >> c >> v >> b >> n >> m >> , >> . >> / >> shift >> English >> Deutsch >> Español >> Français >> Italiano >> Polski >> Português >> Русский >> alt >> alt >> Preferences >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Wed Jun 24 18:09:14 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2015 16:09:14 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack In-Reply-To: References: <20130601003227.8A69B6B8227@homiemail-a52.g.dreamhost.com> <00e101ce5e75$b6c03f00$2440bd00$@1scom.net> <1370097670.35860.YahooMailNeo@web2803.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <9F9D749A-4DB6-4A49-9B56-A5021C5B30C6@aeonsolar.com> <1391622304.14269.YahooMailNeo@web2805.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003401d0aeca$68b518b0$3a1f4a10$@com> After many years of UniRac we switched to SnapnRack. We have never had to wait for product. AEE ships within 48 hours (usually) there are lots of options for different roofs and they all seem to work well. Flush mount rail is the same for ground mount. We have “custom” over engineered racks at 10,000 ft.el., many times that were like doing erector sets on a roof and are so stout that it is wonderful. Service has been excellent with question & suggestions. I am sold can you tell? Flush mount is a an easy install too check out their online design & components www.snapnrack.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dana Brandt Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2015 3:56 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack Hi Jason, We've used Unirac for years but have been contemplating Ironridge. I'm curious what your experience was and why you went back to Unirac? Anyone else have input on best racking systems for flush-mounted residential systems on comp roof? Thanks, Dana Dana Brandt Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC www.ecotechenergy.com dana at ecotechenergy.com 360.318.7646 On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:09 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: By Snap N Rack, you mean Sun Run... http://cleantechnica.com/2014/02/05/sunrun-acquires-rec-solars-residential-business-aee-solar-snapnrack-means/ I'm curious if these vertical integrators will still make their acquired brands available to small dealers through distribution. When SolarCity snatched up Zep, I had concerns about being able to service or add onto existing Zep systems we installed. That's definitely a concern going forward, and reason to perhaps stick with the most compatible racking solutions available. We used IronRidge for a while, which is largely compatible with Unirac, but now we're back on the Unirac bandwagon. Interesting times... Jason Szumlanski ​Fafco Solar​ On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Max Balchowsky wrote: We have been using Snap N' Rack for a while, Have lots of installs in Hawaii - so far no problems, I like the convenience of the design for snapping in the slider nut in mid rail, and also the ability to install the panels flush with the end of the rails…. Max Balchowsky Design Engineer SEE Systems 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 760-403-6810 "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" _____ From: Allen Frishman To: RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, February 5, 2014 6:17 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack I am curious about the mid clamps on the snapnrack. The flange that rests on top of the solar panel frame is so small ~ 3/16". Anyone experience any problems with these failing in a big storm? With solar panel frames not being square it is nice to have a little extra to grab - I am always curious as to why these clips are made with such a small area to hold the panels down. All feedback on these clips is appreciated. Al Frishman AeonSolar (917) 699-6641 - cell (888) 460-2867 www.aeonsolar.com On Jun 1, 2013, at 10:41 AM, Max Balchowsky wrote: Have installed last three systems (35Kw)with snap n rack. love it.... Max Balchowsky Design Engineer SEE Systems 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 760-403-6810 "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" _____ From: Solarguy To: 'RE-wrenches' Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 10:11 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack The only complaint with the Snapnrack rails is the thin wall can easily be distorted. This will allow the nut to drop out of its groove. Love the universal end clamps but have learned to assemble every one to check for proper fit before getting on the roof. Jim Duncan -----Original Message----- From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 7:32 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack Hello Wrenches, How would you rate the SnapNrack mounting systems against Unirac and other mounting systems? Thanks, Drake _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Preferences § 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 - = Backspace Tab q w e r t y u i o p [ ] Return capslock a s d f g h j k l ; ' \ shift ` z x c v b n m , . / shift English Deutsch Español Français Italiano Polski Português Русский alt alt Preferences _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Jun 24 21:36:40 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2015 15:36:40 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack Message-ID: Wrenches For the more traditional roofs we use unitary products but we use the iron ridge Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Dana
Date:06/24/2015 12:09 PM (GMT-10:00)
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack
After many years of UniRac we switched to SnapnRack. We have never had to wait for product. AEE ships within 48 hours (usually) there are lots of options for different roofs and they all seem to work well. Flush mount rail is the same for ground mount. We have “custom” over engineered racks at 10,000 ft.el., many times that were like doing erector sets on a roof and are so stout that it is wonderful. Service has been excellent with question & suggestions. I am sold can you tell? Flush mount is a an easy install too check out their online design & components www.snapnrack.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dana Brandt Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2015 3:56 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack Hi Jason, We've used Unirac for years but have been contemplating Ironridge. I'm curious what your experience was and why you went back to Unirac? Anyone else have input on best racking systems for flush-mounted residential systems on comp roof? Thanks, Dana Dana Brandt Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC www.ecotechenergy.com dana at ecotechenergy.com 360.318.7646 On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:09 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: By Snap N Rack, you mean Sun Run... http://cleantechnica.com/2014/02/05/sunrun-acquires-rec-solars-residential-business-aee-solar-snapnrack-means/ I'm curious if these vertical integrators will still make their acquired brands available to small dealers through distribution. When SolarCity snatched up Zep, I had concerns about being able to service or add onto existing Zep systems we installed. That's definitely a concern going forward, and reason to perhaps stick with the most compatible racking solutions available. We used IronRidge for a while, which is largely compatible with Unirac, but now we're back on the Unirac bandwagon. Interesting times... Jason Szumlanski ​Fafco Solar​ On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Max Balchowsky wrote: We have been using Snap N' Rack for a while, Have lots of installs in Hawaii - so far no problems, I like the convenience of the design for snapping in the slider nut in mid rail, and also the ability to install the panels flush with the end of the rails…. Max Balchowsky Design Engineer SEE Systems 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 760-403-6810 "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" From: Allen Frishman To: RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, February 5, 2014 6:17 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack I am curious about the mid clamps on the snapnrack. The flange that rests on top of the solar panel frame is so small ~ 3/16". Anyone experience any problems with these failing in a big storm? With solar panel frames not being square it is nice to have a little extra to grab - I am always curious as to why these clips are made with such a small area to hold the panels down. All feedback on these clips is appreciated. Al Frishman AeonSolar (917) 699-6641 - cell (888) 460-2867 www.aeonsolar.com On Jun 1, 2013, at 10:41 AM, Max Balchowsky wrote: Have installed last three systems (35Kw)with snap n rack. love it.... Max Balchowsky Design Engineer SEE Systems 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 760-403-6810 "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" From: Solarguy To: 'RE-wrenches' Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 10:11 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack The only complaint with the Snapnrack rails is the thin wall can easily be distorted. This will allow the nut to drop out of its groove. Love the universal end clamps but have learned to assemble every one to check for proper fit before getting on the roof. Jim Duncan -----Original Message----- From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 7:32 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack Hello Wrenches, How would you rate the SnapNrack mounting systems against Unirac and other mounting systems? Thanks, Drake _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Preferences § 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 - = Backspace Tab q w e r t y u i o p [ ] Return capslock a s d f g h j k l ; ' \ shift ` z x c v b n m , . / shift English Deutsch Español Français Italiano Polski Português Русский alt alt Preferences _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swingjunkie at gmail.com Thu Jun 25 07:59:24 2015 From: swingjunkie at gmail.com (Carl Adams) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2015 07:59:24 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We standardized on snap and rack about 3 years ago as well. Previous to that we used a number of systems unirac, iron Ridge etcetera. Good hardware and easy to assemble. We recently installed our first Snap and Rack residential ground mount. That installed very nicely and it priced out better than the UNIVRAC ULA. The online configurator for the residential ground mount has a few bugs. A call to snap and rack tech support resolved the issues and they ran the configurations thru their internal tools to verify measurements. They were very accessible and helpful in their response. Carl Adams President, SunRock Solar mobile 513.290.9072 On Jun 24, 2015 9:43 PM, "jerrysgarage01" wrote: > Wrenches > For the more traditional roofs we use unitary products but we use the iron > ridge > > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Dana > Date:06/24/2015 12:09 PM (GMT-10:00) > To: 'RE-wrenches' > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack > > After many years of UniRac we switched to SnapnRack. We have never had to > wait for product. AEE ships within 48 hours (usually) there are lots of > options for different roofs and they all seem to work well. Flush mount > rail is the same for ground mount. We have “custom” over engineered racks > at 10,000 ft.el., many times that were like doing erector sets on a roof > and are so stout that it is wonderful. Service has been excellent with > question & suggestions. I am sold can you tell? > > Flush mount is a an easy install too check out their online design & > components *www.**snapnrack**.com/* > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel > > Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 > > E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com > > O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 > > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Dana Brandt > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 24, 2015 3:56 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack > > > > Hi Jason, > > We've used Unirac for years but have been contemplating Ironridge. I'm > curious what your experience was and why you went back to Unirac? > > Anyone else have input on best racking systems for flush-mounted > residential systems on comp roof? > > Thanks, > > > Dana > > Dana Brandt > Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC > www.ecotechenergy.com > dana at ecotechenergy.com > 360.318.7646 > > > > On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:09 PM, Jason Szumlanski > wrote: > > By Snap N Rack, you mean Sun Run... > > > > > http://cleantechnica.com/2014/02/05/sunrun-acquires-rec-solars-residential-business-aee-solar-snapnrack-means/ > > > > I'm curious if these vertical integrators will still make their acquired > brands available to small dealers through distribution. When SolarCity > snatched up Zep, I had concerns about being able to service or add onto > existing Zep systems we installed. That's definitely a concern going > forward, and reason to perhaps stick with the most compatible racking > solutions available. We used IronRidge for a while, which is largely > compatible with Unirac, but now we're back on the Unirac bandwagon. > > > > Interesting times... > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > ​Fafco Solar​ > > > > > > On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Max Balchowsky wrote: > > We have been using Snap N' Rack for a while, Have lots of installs in > Hawaii - so far no problems, I like the convenience of the design for > snapping in the slider nut in mid rail, and also the ability to install the > panels flush with the end of the rails…. > > > > Max Balchowsky > Design Engineer > SEE Systems > 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 > Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 > 760-403-6810 > > "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Allen Frishman > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 5, 2014 6:17 AM > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack > > > > I am curious about the mid clamps on the snapnrack. The flange that > rests on top of the solar panel frame is so small ~ 3/16". Anyone > experience any problems with these failing in a big storm? With solar > panel frames not being square it is nice to have a little extra to grab - I > am always curious as to why these clips are made with such a small area to > hold the panels down. > > > > All feedback on these clips is appreciated. > > *Al Frishman* > AeonSolar > > *(917) 699-6641 <%28917%29%20699-6641> - cell* > *(888) 460-2867 <%28888%29%20460-2867>* > *www.aeonsolar.com * > > > > On Jun 1, 2013, at 10:41 AM, Max Balchowsky wrote: > > > > Have installed last three systems (35Kw)with snap n rack. > > love it.... > > > > Max Balchowsky > Design Engineer > SEE Systems > 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 > Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 > 760-403-6810 > > "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Solarguy > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Sent:* Friday, May 31, 2013 10:11 PM > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack > > > > The only complaint with the Snapnrack rails is the thin wall can easily be > distorted. This will allow the nut to drop out of its groove. Love the > universal end clamps but have learned to assemble every one to check for > proper fit before getting on the roof. > > Jim Duncan > > -----Original Message----- > From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto: > re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake > Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 7:32 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack > > > > Hello Wrenches, > > > > How would you rate the SnapNrack mounting systems against Unirac and other > mounting systems? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Drake > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > Preferences > > § > > 1 > > 2 > > 3 > > 4 > > 5 > > 6 > > 7 > > 8 > > 9 > > 0 > > - > > = > > Backspace > > Tab > > q > > w > > e > > r > > t > > y > > u > > i > > o > > p > > [ > > ] > > Return > > capslock > > a > > s > > d > > f > > g > > h > > j > > k > > l > > ; > > ' > > \ > > shift > > ` > > z > > x > > c > > v > > b > > n > > m > > , > > . > > / > > shift > > English > > Deutsch > > Español > > Français > > Italiano > > Polski > > Português > > Русский > > alt > > alt > > Preferences > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Thu Jun 25 09:00:44 2015 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2015 07:00:44 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island Sizing Message-ID: Hello So far I've been unsuccessful in getting SMA to return a call Does anyone have a direct line to one of their design engineers? •Off grid SI/SB 3Phase Help..... Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! From Steve.Jefferson at sma-america.com Thu Jun 25 12:32:08 2015 From: Steve.Jefferson at sma-america.com (Steve Jefferson) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2015 16:32:08 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island Sizing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41FE255D65D554478C3B17F3EB5410EF91392145@SVR-US-EXMBX-01.sma.de> Morning Jeremy, SMA does not have design engineers. I recommend contacting Ameresco Solar, they provide both design and integration assistance. Any questions, let me know. SMA America, LLC Steve Jefferson Service Line Supervisor 3925 Atherton Ave Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714 U.S.A. Tel:  +1 916 625 3185 (direct) Fax: +1 916 625 0871 Mobile: +1 916 622 4253 Email: Steve.jefferson at SMA-America.com www.SMA-America.com   This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Rodriguez Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2015 6:01 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island Sizing Hello So far I've been unsuccessful in getting SMA to return a call Does anyone have a direct line to one of their design engineers? •Off grid SI/SB 3Phase Help..... Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Thu Jun 25 12:58:50 2015 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2015 12:58:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island Sizing In-Reply-To: <41FE255D65D554478C3B17F3EB5410EF91392145@SVR-US-EXMBX-01.sma.de> References: <41FE255D65D554478C3B17F3EB5410EF91392145@SVR-US-EXMBX-01.sma.de> Message-ID: <20150625165859.051DD100E2@che.dreamhost.com> Really? I clearly remember at many SMA training events being told that SMA had engineers available to help with SI off grid designs. When was that ability discontinued? Sincerely, Glenn Burt Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. -----Original Message----- From: "Steve Jefferson" Sent: ‎6/‎25/‎2015 12:32 To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island Sizing Morning Jeremy, SMA does not have design engineers. I recommend contacting Ameresco Solar, they provide both design and integration assistance. Any questions, let me know. SMA America, LLC Steve Jefferson Service Line Supervisor 3925 Atherton Ave Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714 U.S.A. Tel:  +1 916 625 3185 (direct) Fax: +1 916 625 0871 Mobile: +1 916 622 4253 Email: Steve.jefferson at SMA-America.com www.SMA-America.com   This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Rodriguez Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2015 6:01 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island Sizing Hello So far I've been unsuccessful in getting SMA to return a call Does anyone have a direct line to one of their design engineers? •Off grid SI/SB 3Phase Help..... Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jun 25 16:13:20 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2015 16:13:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack In-Reply-To: References: <20130601003227.8A69B6B8227@homiemail-a52.g.dreamhost.com> <00e101ce5e75$b6c03f00$2440bd00$@1scom.net> <1370097670.35860.YahooMailNeo@web2803.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <9F9D749A-4DB6-4A49-9B56-A5021C5B30C6@aeonsolar.com> <1391622304.14269.YahooMailNeo@web2805.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: That decision was based on our distribution network offering better pricing on Unirac, and engineers being comfortable with it. Now with the integrated grounding from Unirac, I can't see moving away from it again barring a significant cost benefit. It also stacks and stocks easier than the Ironridge rails. On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 5:55 PM, Dana Brandt wrote: > Hi Jason, > > We've used Unirac for years but have been contemplating Ironridge. I'm > curious what your experience was and why you went back to Unirac? > > Anyone else have input on best racking systems for flush-mounted > residential systems on comp roof? > > Thanks, > > Dana > > Dana Brandt > Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC > www.ecotechenergy.com > dana at ecotechenergy.com > 360.318.7646 > > On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:09 PM, Jason Szumlanski > wrote: > >> By Snap N Rack, you mean Sun Run... >> >> >> http://cleantechnica.com/2014/02/05/sunrun-acquires-rec-solars-residential-business-aee-solar-snapnrack-means/ >> >> I'm curious if these vertical integrators will still make their acquired >> brands available to small dealers through distribution. When SolarCity >> snatched up Zep, I had concerns about being able to service or add onto >> existing Zep systems we installed. That's definitely a concern going >> forward, and reason to perhaps stick with the most compatible racking >> solutions available. We used IronRidge for a while, which is largely >> compatible with Unirac, but now we're back on the Unirac bandwagon. >> >> Interesting times... >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> ​Fafco Solar​ >> >> >> >> On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Max Balchowsky wrote: >> >>> We have been using Snap N' Rack for a while, Have lots of installs in >>> Hawaii - so far no problems, I like the convenience of the design for >>> snapping in the slider nut in mid rail, and also the ability to install the >>> panels flush with the end of the rails…. >>> >>> Max Balchowsky >>> Design Engineer >>> SEE Systems >>> 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 >>> Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 >>> 760-403-6810 >>> "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* Allen Frishman >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 5, 2014 6:17 AM >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack >>> >>> I am curious about the mid clamps on the snapnrack. The flange that >>> rests on top of the solar panel frame is so small ~ 3/16". Anyone >>> experience any problems with these failing in a big storm? With solar >>> panel frames not being square it is nice to have a little extra to grab - I >>> am always curious as to why these clips are made with such a small area to >>> hold the panels down. >>> >>> All feedback on these clips is appreciated. >>> *Al Frishman* >>> AeonSolar >>> *(917) 699-6641 - cell* >>> *(888) 460-2867* >>> *www.aeonsolar.com * >>> >>> On Jun 1, 2013, at 10:41 AM, Max Balchowsky wrote: >>> >>> Have installed last three systems (35Kw)with snap n rack. >>> love it.... >>> >>> Max Balchowsky >>> Design Engineer >>> SEE Systems >>> 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 >>> Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 >>> 760-403-6810 >>> "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* Solarguy >>> *To:* 'RE-wrenches' >>> *Sent:* Friday, May 31, 2013 10:11 PM >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack >>> >>> The only complaint with the Snapnrack rails is the thin wall can easily >>> be distorted. This will allow the nut to drop out of its groove. Love the >>> universal end clamps but have learned to assemble every one to check for >>> proper fit before getting on the roof. >>> Jim Duncan >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto: >>> re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake >>> Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 7:32 PM >>> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack >>> >>> Hello Wrenches, >>> >>> How would you rate the SnapNrack mounting systems against Unirac and >>> other mounting systems? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Drake >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> Preferences >>> § >>> 1 >>> 2 >>> 3 >>> 4 >>> 5 >>> 6 >>> 7 >>> 8 >>> 9 >>> 0 >>> - >>> = >>> Backspace >>> Tab >>> q >>> w >>> e >>> r >>> t >>> y >>> u >>> i >>> o >>> p >>> [ >>> ] >>> Return >>> capslock >>> a >>> s >>> d >>> f >>> g >>> h >>> j >>> k >>> l >>> ; >>> ' >>> \ >>> shift >>> ` >>> z >>> x >>> c >>> v >>> b >>> n >>> m >>> , >>> . >>> / >>> shift >>> English >>> Deutsch >>> Español >>> Français >>> Italiano >>> Polski >>> Português >>> Русский >>> alt >>> alt >>> Preferences >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Thu Jun 25 18:07:00 2015 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2015 18:07:00 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island Sizing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3D0B04D8-11AE-4E39-9806-7575FF4C03B4@swnl.net> While they recently have down sized their staff I find this surprising. I have CCed an engineer and someone you can Btch slap...... enjoy Greg! TUMP Contact me off list if you still have a problem I do SI/SB installs On Jun 25, 2015, at 9:00 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > Hello > So far I've been unsuccessful in getting SMA to return a call > Does anyone have a direct line to one of their design engineers? > •Off grid SI/SB 3Phase > Help..... > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation And Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarwindworks.com Thu Jun 25 19:11:46 2015 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2015 16:11:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack In-Reply-To: References: <20130601003227.8A69B6B8227@homiemail-a52.g.dreamhost.com> <00e101ce5e75$b6c03f00$2440bd00$@1scom.net> <1370097670.35860.YahooMailNeo@web2803.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <9F9D749A-4DB6-4A49-9B56-A5021C5B30C6@aeonsolar.com> <1391622304.14269.YahooMailNeo@web2805.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <024f01d0af9c$505fa9b0$f11efd10$@solarwindworks.com> Hi Jason, Have you or others been using the new UniRac SM mid and end clamps with the integrated bonding yet? My concern is the “Stainless steel Midclamp points, 2 per module, pierce module frame anodization to bond module to module through clamp.” We had an MSI Alpha + self-bonding midclamp shatter the glass on an LG 280 last fall, as the factory set point was sticking out too far, so as it was being tightened down, on top of the module the point dug through the module’s top frame hitting the glass, shattering it. I do wonder if there are any issues with this “point” on the UniRac midclamps potential for doing the same damage? Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP Certified PV Installer Office 530-582-4503 Cell 530-448-9692 Fax 530-582-4603 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2015 1:13 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack That decision was based on our distribution network offering better pricing on Unirac, and engineers being comfortable with it. Now with the integrated grounding from Unirac, I can't see moving away from it again barring a significant cost benefit. It also stacks and stocks easier than the Ironridge rails. On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 5:55 PM, Dana Brandt wrote: Hi Jason, We've used Unirac for years but have been contemplating Ironridge. I'm curious what your experience was and why you went back to Unirac? Anyone else have input on best racking systems for flush-mounted residential systems on comp roof? Thanks, Dana Dana Brandt Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC www.ecotechenergy.com dana at ecotechenergy.com 360.318.7646 On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:09 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: By Snap N Rack, you mean Sun Run... http://cleantechnica.com/2014/02/05/sunrun-acquires-rec-solars-residential-business-aee-solar-snapnrack-means/ I'm curious if these vertical integrators will still make their acquired brands available to small dealers through distribution. When SolarCity snatched up Zep, I had concerns about being able to service or add onto existing Zep systems we installed. That's definitely a concern going forward, and reason to perhaps stick with the most compatible racking solutions available. We used IronRidge for a while, which is largely compatible with Unirac, but now we're back on the Unirac bandwagon. Interesting times... Jason Szumlanski ​Fafco Solar​ On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Max Balchowsky wrote: We have been using Snap N' Rack for a while, Have lots of installs in Hawaii - so far no problems, I like the convenience of the design for snapping in the slider nut in mid rail, and also the ability to install the panels flush with the end of the rails…. Max Balchowsky Design Engineer SEE Systems 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 760-403-6810 "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" _____ From: Allen Frishman To: RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, February 5, 2014 6:17 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack I am curious about the mid clamps on the snapnrack. The flange that rests on top of the solar panel frame is so small ~ 3/16". Anyone experience any problems with these failing in a big storm? With solar panel frames not being square it is nice to have a little extra to grab - I am always curious as to why these clips are made with such a small area to hold the panels down. All feedback on these clips is appreciated. Al Frishman AeonSolar (917) 699-6641 - cell (888) 460-2867 www.aeonsolar.com On Jun 1, 2013, at 10:41 AM, Max Balchowsky wrote: Have installed last three systems (35Kw)with snap n rack. love it.... Max Balchowsky Design Engineer SEE Systems 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 760-403-6810 "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" _____ From: Solarguy To: 'RE-wrenches' Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 10:11 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack The only complaint with the Snapnrack rails is the thin wall can easily be distorted. This will allow the nut to drop out of its groove. Love the universal end clamps but have learned to assemble every one to check for proper fit before getting on the roof. Jim Duncan -----Original Message----- From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 7:32 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack Hello Wrenches, How would you rate the SnapNrack mounting systems against Unirac and other mounting systems? Thanks, Drake _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Preferences § 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 - = Backspace Tab q w e r t y u i o p [ ] Return capslock a s d f g h j k l ; ' \ shift ` z x c v b n m , . / shift English Deutsch Español Français Italiano Polski Português Русский alt alt Preferences _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmcpheeters at yahoo.com Fri Jun 26 02:52:23 2015 From: gmcpheeters at yahoo.com (Greg McPheeters) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2015 06:52:23 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <565843739.166417.1435301543821.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> I may be a little biased but just wanted to weigh in quickly on this thread: - with the merger of SnapNrack and SunRun there has never been any intention of private labeling the product line.  We heard this concern a lot when the merger first happened, but that was almost a year and a half ago - we don't hear it too much lately. - I have personally run many load tests on SnapNrack mid clamps, we run them to over 2,000 lbs and you can't even tell they have any load on them.  That load corresponds to over 200 psf of uplift on a typical module . . . so they have a healthy safety factor and I believe that if we were to benchmark against other mid clamps we would be among the strongest in the industry, especially with the addition of bonding pins last year as part of our UL2703 listing.  Greg McPheetersSenior Engineering Manager, SnapNrack From: Jason Szumlanski To: RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2015 1:13 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack That decision was based on our distribution network offering better pricing on Unirac, and engineers being comfortable with it. Now with the integrated grounding from Unirac, I can't see moving away from it again barring a significant cost benefit. It also stacks and stocks easier than the Ironridge rails. On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 5:55 PM, Dana Brandt wrote: Hi Jason, We've used Unirac for years but have been contemplating Ironridge. I'm curious what your experience was and why you went back to Unirac? Anyone else have input on best racking systems for flush-mounted residential systems on comp roof? Thanks, Dana Dana Brandt Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC www.ecotechenergy.com dana at ecotechenergy.com 360.318.7646 On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:09 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: By Snap N Rack, you mean Sun Run... http://cleantechnica.com/2014/02/05/sunrun-acquires-rec-solars-residential-business-aee-solar-snapnrack-means/ I'm curious if these vertical integrators will still make their acquired brands available to small dealers through distribution. When SolarCity snatched up Zep, I had concerns about being able to service or add onto existing Zep systems we installed. That's definitely a concern going forward, and reason to perhaps stick with the most compatible racking solutions available. We used IronRidge for a while, which is largely compatible with Unirac, but now we're back on the Unirac bandwagon.  Interesting times... Jason Szumlanski​Fafco Solar​ On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Max Balchowsky wrote: We have been using Snap N' Rack for a while, Have lots of installs in Hawaii - so far no problems, I like the convenience of the design for snapping in the slider nut in mid rail, and also the ability to install the panels flush with the end of the rails…. Max Balchowsky Design Engineer SEE Systems 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 760-403-6810"Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" From: Allen Frishman To: RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, February 5, 2014 6:17 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack I am curious about the mid clamps on the snapnrack.   The flange that rests on top of the solar panel frame is so small ~ 3/16".    Anyone experience any problems with these failing in a big storm?    With solar panel frames not being square it is nice to have a little extra to grab - I am always curious as to why these clips are made with such a small area to hold the panels down.    All feedback on these clips is appreciated. Al Frishman AeonSolar(917) 699-6641 - cell (888) 460-2867 www.aeonsolar.com On Jun 1, 2013, at 10:41 AM, Max Balchowsky wrote: Have installed last three systems (35Kw)with snap n rack.love it.... Max Balchowsky Design Engineer SEE Systems 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 760-403-6810"Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" From: Solarguy To: 'RE-wrenches' Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 10:11 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack The only complaint with the Snapnrack rails is the thin wall can easily be distorted. This will allow the nut to drop out of its groove. Love the universal end clamps but have learned to assemble every one to check for proper fit before getting on the roof.Jim Duncan-----Original Message----- From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 7:32 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack  Hello Wrenches,  How would you rate the SnapNrack mounting systems against Unirac and other mounting systems?  Thanks,  Drake  _______________________________________________List sponsored by Home Power magazine  List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org  Change email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org  List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org  List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm  Check out participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Preferences § 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 - = Backspace Tab q w e r t y u i o p [ ] Return capslock a s d f g h j k l ; ' \ shift ` z x c v b n m , . / shiftEnglishDeutschEspañolFrançaisItalianoPolskiPortuguêsРусский alt altPreferences_______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amfrish at aeonsolar.com Fri Jun 26 09:26:37 2015 From: amfrish at aeonsolar.com (Allen Frishman) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2015 09:26:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] central vrs string inverters Message-ID: <019EB462-3F67-4A7F-8622-6884D5B39CEB@aeonsolar.com> Hi Wrenchers, I am considering using 8 SMA Tri-power Inverters for a project with a 3 phase 208V Grid which means I have to add a step down transformer (480V to 208V). I am comparing this option to a central inverter. I have done many of the central inverter systems at the 208V but have yet to try the 20+ KW string inverters with the addition of a step down transformer. I know that both systems have there own pros and cons and I will really appreciate some feedback from those that have experience doing both types. For the central inverter there are fewer inverters to malfunction however when one does the entire system is down. In my experience the Central Inverters that I have used have been very reliable. - Anyone seeing reliability issues with the SMA Tri-power 20KW and 24KW string inverters? Note: My project is under NEC 2008. All feedback is appreciated. Al Frishman AeonSolar (917) 699-6641 - cell (888) 460-2867 www.aeonsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Jun 26 06:44:38 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2015 06:44:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack In-Reply-To: <024f01d0af9c$505fa9b0$f11efd10$@solarwindworks.com> References: <20130601003227.8A69B6B8227@homiemail-a52.g.dreamhost.com> <00e101ce5e75$b6c03f00$2440bd00$@1scom.net> <1370097670.35860.YahooMailNeo@web2803.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <9F9D749A-4DB6-4A49-9B56-A5021C5B30C6@aeonsolar.com> <1391622304.14269.YahooMailNeo@web2805.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <024f01d0af9c$505fa9b0$f11efd10$@solarwindworks.com> Message-ID: So far, so good. No issues like that. However, on one job we had a problem with the bolt heads not "catching" in the rail channel and modules popping up. I chalked that up to an installation error by an installer that was easily resolved. Despite the convenience, I'm not a huge fan of t-bolts for top clamps. Square head bolts that you slide into the channel seem much more secure and less prone to error. However, the bonding feature makes the T-bolts worth the tradeoff. Jason On Thu, Jun 25, 2015 at 7:11 PM, Chris Worcester wrote: > Hi Jason, > > Have you or others been using the new UniRac SM mid and end clamps with > the integrated bonding yet? My concern is the “Stainless steel Midclamp > points, 2 per module, pierce module frame anodization to bond module to > module through clamp.” > > We had an MSI Alpha + self-bonding midclamp shatter the glass on an LG 280 > last fall, as the factory set point was sticking out too far, so as it was > being tightened down, on top of the module the point dug through the > module’s top frame hitting the glass, shattering it. > > I do wonder if there are any issues with this “point” on the UniRac > midclamps potential for doing the same damage? > > > > Chris Worcester > > Solar Wind Works > > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > > Office 530-582-4503 > > Cell 530-448-9692 > > Fax 530-582-4603 > > www.solarwindworks.com > > chris at solarwindworks.com > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski > *Sent:* Thursday, June 25, 2015 1:13 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack > > > > That decision was based on our distribution network offering better > pricing on Unirac, and engineers being comfortable with it. Now with the > integrated grounding from Unirac, I can't see moving away from it again > barring a significant cost benefit. It also stacks and stocks easier than > the Ironridge rails. > > > > > > > On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 5:55 PM, Dana Brandt > wrote: > > Hi Jason, > > We've used Unirac for years but have been contemplating Ironridge. I'm > curious what your experience was and why you went back to Unirac? > > Anyone else have input on best racking systems for flush-mounted > residential systems on comp roof? > > Thanks, > > > Dana > > Dana Brandt > Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC > www.ecotechenergy.com > dana at ecotechenergy.com > 360.318.7646 > > > > On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:09 PM, Jason Szumlanski > wrote: > > By Snap N Rack, you mean Sun Run... > > > > > http://cleantechnica.com/2014/02/05/sunrun-acquires-rec-solars-residential-business-aee-solar-snapnrack-means/ > > > > I'm curious if these vertical integrators will still make their acquired > brands available to small dealers through distribution. When SolarCity > snatched up Zep, I had concerns about being able to service or add onto > existing Zep systems we installed. That's definitely a concern going > forward, and reason to perhaps stick with the most compatible racking > solutions available. We used IronRidge for a while, which is largely > compatible with Unirac, but now we're back on the Unirac bandwagon. > > > > Interesting times... > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > ​Fafco Solar​ > > > > > > On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Max Balchowsky wrote: > > We have been using Snap N' Rack for a while, Have lots of installs in > Hawaii - so far no problems, I like the convenience of the design for > snapping in the slider nut in mid rail, and also the ability to install the > panels flush with the end of the rails…. > > > > Max Balchowsky > Design Engineer > SEE Systems > 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 > Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 > 760-403-6810 > > "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Allen Frishman > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 5, 2014 6:17 AM > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack > > > > I am curious about the mid clamps on the snapnrack. The flange that > rests on top of the solar panel frame is so small ~ 3/16". Anyone > experience any problems with these failing in a big storm? With solar > panel frames not being square it is nice to have a little extra to grab - I > am always curious as to why these clips are made with such a small area to > hold the panels down. > > > > All feedback on these clips is appreciated. > > *Al Frishman* > AeonSolar > > *(917) 699-6641 <%28917%29%20699-6641> - cell* > *(888) 460-2867 <%28888%29%20460-2867>* > *www.aeonsolar.com * > > > > On Jun 1, 2013, at 10:41 AM, Max Balchowsky wrote: > > > > Have installed last three systems (35Kw)with snap n rack. > > love it.... > > > > Max Balchowsky > Design Engineer > SEE Systems > 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 > Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 > 760-403-6810 > > "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Solarguy > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Sent:* Friday, May 31, 2013 10:11 PM > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack > > > > The only complaint with the Snapnrack rails is the thin wall can easily be > distorted. This will allow the nut to drop out of its groove. Love the > universal end clamps but have learned to assemble every one to check for > proper fit before getting on the roof. > > Jim Duncan > > -----Original Message----- > From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto: > re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake > Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 7:32 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack > > > > Hello Wrenches, > > > > How would you rate the SnapNrack mounting systems against Unirac and other > mounting systems? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Drake > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Fri Jun 26 10:50:23 2015 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2015 07:50:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack In-Reply-To: <024f01d0af9c$505fa9b0$f11efd10$@solarwindworks.com> References: <20130601003227.8A69B6B8227@homiemail-a52.g.dreamhost.com> <00e101ce5e75$b6c03f00$2440bd00$@1scom.net> <1370097670.35860.YahooMailNeo@web2803.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <9F9D749A-4DB6-4A49-9B56-A5021C5B30C6@aeonsolar.com> <1391622304.14269.YahooMailNeo@web2805.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <024f01d0af9c$505fa9b0$f11efd10$@solarwindworks.com> Message-ID: <7ade0129e7643dd4d66c8e810de91bf8@mail.gmail.com> Chris, We’ve been using the new Unirac SM clamps with integrated grounding and our crews like them so far. No shattered modules. I’m happy that you brought this up as a potential issue and it seems like a good reminder for our crews to carefully torque our clamps. Best, August August Goers Luminalt Energy Corporation m: 415.559.1525 o:415.641.4000 august at luminalt.com *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Chris Worcester *Sent:* Thursday, June 25, 2015 4:12 PM *To:* 'RE-wrenches' *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack Hi Jason, Have you or others been using the new UniRac SM mid and end clamps with the integrated bonding yet? My concern is the “Stainless steel Midclamp points, 2 per module, pierce module frame anodization to bond module to module through clamp.” We had an MSI Alpha + self-bonding midclamp shatter the glass on an LG 280 last fall, as the factory set point was sticking out too far, so as it was being tightened down, on top of the module the point dug through the module’s top frame hitting the glass, shattering it. I do wonder if there are any issues with this “point” on the UniRac midclamps potential for doing the same damage? Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP Certified PV Installer Office 530-582-4503 Cell 530-448-9692 Fax 530-582-4603 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] *On Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski *Sent:* Thursday, June 25, 2015 1:13 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack That decision was based on our distribution network offering better pricing on Unirac, and engineers being comfortable with it. Now with the integrated grounding from Unirac, I can't see moving away from it again barring a significant cost benefit. It also stacks and stocks easier than the Ironridge rails. On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 5:55 PM, Dana Brandt wrote: Hi Jason, We've used Unirac for years but have been contemplating Ironridge. I'm curious what your experience was and why you went back to Unirac? Anyone else have input on best racking systems for flush-mounted residential systems on comp roof? Thanks, Dana Dana Brandt Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC www.ecotechenergy.com dana at ecotechenergy.com 360.318.7646 On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:09 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: By Snap N Rack, you mean Sun Run... http://cleantechnica.com/2014/02/05/sunrun-acquires-rec-solars-residential-business-aee-solar-snapnrack-means/ I'm curious if these vertical integrators will still make their acquired brands available to small dealers through distribution. When SolarCity snatched up Zep, I had concerns about being able to service or add onto existing Zep systems we installed. That's definitely a concern going forward, and reason to perhaps stick with the most compatible racking solutions available. We used IronRidge for a while, which is largely compatible with Unirac, but now we're back on the Unirac bandwagon. Interesting times... Jason Szumlanski ​Fafco Solar​ On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Max Balchowsky wrote: We have been using Snap N' Rack for a while, Have lots of installs in Hawaii - so far no problems, I like the convenience of the design for snapping in the slider nut in mid rail, and also the ability to install the panels flush with the end of the rails…. Max Balchowsky Design Engineer SEE Systems 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 760-403-6810 "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" ------------------------------ *From:* Allen Frishman *To:* RE-wrenches *Sent:* Wednesday, February 5, 2014 6:17 AM *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack I am curious about the mid clamps on the snapnrack. The flange that rests on top of the solar panel frame is so small ~ 3/16". Anyone experience any problems with these failing in a big storm? With solar panel frames not being square it is nice to have a little extra to grab - I am always curious as to why these clips are made with such a small area to hold the panels down. All feedback on these clips is appreciated. *Al Frishman* AeonSolar *(917) 699-6641 - cell* *(888) 460-2867* *www.aeonsolar.com * On Jun 1, 2013, at 10:41 AM, Max Balchowsky wrote: Have installed last three systems (35Kw)with snap n rack. love it.... Max Balchowsky Design Engineer SEE Systems 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 760-403-6810 "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" ------------------------------ *From:* Solarguy *To:* 'RE-wrenches' *Sent:* Friday, May 31, 2013 10:11 PM *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack The only complaint with the Snapnrack rails is the thin wall can easily be distorted. This will allow the nut to drop out of its groove. Love the universal end clamps but have learned to assemble every one to check for proper fit before getting on the roof. Jim Duncan -----Original Message----- From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 7:32 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack Hello Wrenches, How would you rate the SnapNrack mounting systems against Unirac and other mounting systems? Thanks, Drake _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Preferences § 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 - = Backspace Tab q w e r t y u i o p [ ] Return capslock a s d f g h j k l ; ' \ shift ` z x c v b n m , . / shift English Deutsch Español Français Italiano Polski Português Русский alt alt Preferences _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com Fri Jun 26 12:59:08 2015 From: solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com (Solar Energy Solutions) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2015 16:59:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack In-Reply-To: References: <20130601003227.8A69B6B8227@homiemail-a52.g.dreamhost.com> <00e101ce5e75$b6c03f00$2440bd00$@1scom.net> <1370097670.35860.YahooMailNeo@web2803.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <9F9D749A-4DB6-4A49-9B56-A5021C5B30C6@aeonsolar.com> <1391622304.14269.YahooMailNeo@web2805.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <024f01d0af9c$505fa9b0$f11efd10$@solarwindworks.com> Message-ID: <2017054151.525683.1435337948425.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> We had a situation where an extra square head was left in place under a panel.  It must have been thought to be more trouble than it was worth to remove.  10 year later...Crack goes the Sanyo!  Installer error, we had to do the right thing... it hurt!  Andrew KoyaanisqatsiPresidentSolar Energy Solutions, Inc.Since 1987,Moving Portland and Beyond to an Environmentally Sustainable Future.503-238-4502 www.SolarEnergyOregon.com "Better one's House too little one daythan too big all the Year after." On Friday, June 26, 2015 7:33 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: So far, so good. No issues like that. However, on one job we had a problem with the bolt heads not "catching" in the rail channel and modules popping up. I chalked that up to an installation error by an installer that was easily resolved. Despite the convenience, I'm not a huge fan of t-bolts for top clamps. Square head bolts that you slide into the channel seem much more secure and less prone to error. However, the bonding feature makes the T-bolts worth the tradeoff. Jason On Thu, Jun 25, 2015 at 7:11 PM, Chris Worcester wrote: Hi Jason,Have you or others been using the new UniRac SM mid and end clamps with the integrated bonding yet? My concern is the “Stainless steel Midclamp points, 2 per module, pierce module frame anodization to bond module to module through clamp.”We had an MSI Alpha + self-bonding midclamp shatter the glass on an LG 280 last fall, as the factory set point was sticking out too far, so as it was being tightened down, on top of the module the point dug through the module’s top frame hitting the glass, shattering it.I do wonder if there are any issues with this “point” on the UniRac midclamps potential for doing the same damage? Chris WorcesterSolar Wind WorksNABCEP Certified PV InstallerOffice 530-582-4503Cell 530-448-9692Fax 530-582-4603www.solarwindworks.comchris at solarwindworks.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2015 1:13 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack That decision was based on our distribution network offering better pricing on Unirac, and engineers being comfortable with it. Now with the integrated grounding from Unirac, I can't see moving away from it again barring a significant cost benefit. It also stacks and stocks easier than the Ironridge rails.   On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 5:55 PM, Dana Brandt wrote:Hi Jason,We've used Unirac for years but have been contemplating Ironridge. I'm curious what your experience was and why you went back to Unirac? Anyone else have input on best racking systems for flush-mounted residential systems on comp roof? Thanks, Dana Dana Brandt Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC www.ecotechenergy.com dana at ecotechenergy.com 360.318.7646 On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:09 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote:By Snap N Rack, you mean Sun Run... http://cleantechnica.com/2014/02/05/sunrun-acquires-rec-solars-residential-business-aee-solar-snapnrack-means/ I'm curious if these vertical integrators will still make their acquired brands available to small dealers through distribution. When SolarCity snatched up Zep, I had concerns about being able to service or add onto existing Zep systems we installed. That's definitely a concern going forward, and reason to perhaps stick with the most compatible racking solutions available. We used IronRidge for a while, which is largely compatible with Unirac, but now we're back on the Unirac bandwagon.  Interesting times... Jason Szumlanski​Fafco Solar​  On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Max Balchowsky wrote:We have been using Snap N' Rack for a while, Have lots of installs in Hawaii - so far no problems, I like the convenience of the design for snapping in the slider nut in mid rail, and also the ability to install the panels flush with the end of the rails…. Max Balchowsky Design Engineer SEE Systems 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 760-403-6810"Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" From: Allen Frishman To: RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, February 5, 2014 6:17 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack I am curious about the mid clamps on the snapnrack.   The flange that rests on top of the solar panel frame is so small ~ 3/16".    Anyone experience any problems with these failing in a big storm?    With solar panel frames not being square it is nice to have a little extra to grab - I am always curious as to why these clips are made with such a small area to hold the panels down.    All feedback on these clips is appreciated.Al Frishman AeonSolar(917) 699-6641 - cell (888) 460-2867 www.aeonsolar.com On Jun 1, 2013, at 10:41 AM, Max Balchowsky wrote: Have installed last three systems (35Kw)with snap n rack.love it.... Max Balchowsky Design Engineer SEE Systems 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 760-403-6810"Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" From: Solarguy To: 'RE-wrenches' Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 10:11 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack The only complaint with the Snapnrack rails is the thin wall can easily be distorted. This will allow the nut to drop out of its groove. Love the universal end clamps but have learned to assemble every one to check for proper fit before getting on the roof.Jim Duncan-----Original Message----- From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 7:32 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack Hello Wrenches, How would you rate the SnapNrack mounting systems against Unirac and other mounting systems? Thanks, Drake  _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Fri Jun 26 17:40:40 2015 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2015 17:40:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack In-Reply-To: References: <20130601003227.8A69B6B8227@homiemail-a52.g.dreamhost.com> <00e101ce5e75$b6c03f00$2440bd00$@1scom.net> <1370097670.35860.YahooMailNeo@web2803.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <9F9D749A-4DB6-4A49-9B56-A5021C5B30C6@aeonsolar.com> <1391622304.14269.YahooMailNeo@web2805.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <558DC6D8.2070409@entech-engineering.com> Someone in this thread mentioned a Unirac integrated bonding end clamp. Our supplier has that on the packing slip, but it was still the same end clamp we always receive. I have checked their website and do not see an integrated bonding end clamp; just mid clamp. Does Unirac make an integrated bonding end clamp? Thanks for any help. Chris On 6/25/2015 4:13 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > That decision was based on our distribution network offering better > pricing on Unirac, and engineers being comfortable with it. Now with > the integrated grounding from Unirac, I can't see moving away from it > again barring a significant cost benefit. It also stacks and stocks > easier than the Ironridge rails. > > > > On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 5:55 PM, Dana Brandt > wrote: > > Hi Jason, > > We've used Unirac for years but have been contemplating Ironridge. > I'm curious what your experience was and why you went back to Unirac? > > Anyone else have input on best racking systems for flush-mounted > residential systems on comp roof? > > Thanks, > > Dana > > Dana Brandt > Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC > www.ecotechenergy.com > dana at ecotechenergy.com > 360.318.7646 > > On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:09 PM, Jason Szumlanski > > wrote: > > By Snap N Rack, you mean Sun Run... > > http://cleantechnica.com/2014/02/05/sunrun-acquires-rec-solars-residential-business-aee-solar-snapnrack-means/ > > I'm curious if these vertical integrators will still make > their acquired brands available to small dealers through > distribution. When SolarCity snatched up Zep, I had concerns > about being able to service or add onto existing Zep systems > we installed. That's definitely a concern going forward, and > reason to perhaps stick with the most compatible racking > solutions available. We used IronRidge for a while, which is > largely compatible with Unirac, but now we're back on the > Unirac bandwagon. > > Interesting times... > > > Jason Szumlanski > > ​Fafco Solar​ > > > > On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Max Balchowsky > > wrote: > > We have been using Snap N' Rack for a while, Have lots of > installs in Hawaii - so far no problems, I like the > convenience of the design for snapping in the slider nut > in mid rail, and also the ability to install the panels > flush with the end of the rails…. > Max Balchowsky > Design Engineer > SEE Systems > 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 > Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 > 760-403-6810 > "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Allen Frishman > > *To:* RE-wrenches > > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 5, 2014 6:17 AM > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack > > I am curious about the mid clamps on the snapnrack. The > flange that rests on top of the solar panel frame is so > small ~ 3/16". Anyone experience any problems with > these failing in a big storm? With solar panel frames > not being square it is nice to have a little extra to grab > - I am always curious as to why these clips are made with > such a small area to hold the panels down. > > All feedback on these clips is appreciated. > /Al Frishman/ > AeonSolar > /(917) 699-6641 - cell/ > /(888) 460-2867/ > /www.aeonsolar.com / > > On Jun 1, 2013, at 10:41 AM, Max Balchowsky wrote: > >> Have installed last three systems (35Kw)with snap n rack. >> love it.... >> Max Balchowsky >> Design Engineer >> SEE Systems >> 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 >> Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 >> 760-403-6810 >> "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *From:* Solarguy > >> *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > > >> *Sent:* Friday, May 31, 2013 10:11 PM >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack >> >> The only complaint with the Snapnrack rails is the thin >> wall can easily be distorted. This will allow the nut to >> drop out of its groove. Love the universal end clamps but >> have learned to assemble every one to check for proper >> fit before getting on the roof. >> Jim Duncan >> -----Original Message----- >> From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >> ] On >> Behalf Of Drake >> Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 7:32 PM >> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack >> Hello Wrenches, >> How would you rate the SnapNrack mounting systems against >> Unirac and other mounting systems? >> Thanks, >> Drake >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> Preferences >> § >> 1 >> 2 >> 3 >> 4 >> 5 >> 6 >> 7 >> 8 >> 9 >> 0 >> - >> = >> Backspace >> Tab >> q >> w >> e >> r >> t >> y >> u >> i >> o >> p >> [ >> ] >> Return >> capslock >> a >> s >> d >> f >> g >> h >> j >> k >> l >> ; >> ' >> \ >> shift >> ` >> z >> x >> c >> v >> b >> n >> m >> , >> . >> / >> shift >> English >> Deutsch >> Español >> Français >> Italiano >> Polski >> Português >> Русский >> alt >> alt >> Preferences >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel, President ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 100 bytes Desc: not available URL: From august at luminalt.com Fri Jun 26 17:49:35 2015 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2015 14:49:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack In-Reply-To: <558DC6D8.2070409@entech-engineering.com> References: <20130601003227.8A69B6B8227@homiemail-a52.g.dreamhost.com> <00e101ce5e75$b6c03f00$2440bd00$@1scom.net> <1370097670.35860.YahooMailNeo@web2803.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <9F9D749A-4DB6-4A49-9B56-A5021C5B30C6@aeonsolar.com> <1391622304.14269.YahooMailNeo@web2805.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <558DC6D8.2070409@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <0b0b4ea5408d5cced7c23998f3491925@mail.gmail.com> Chris, You are correct – there is just a bonding Unirac mid clamp. The new SM end clamp is basically the same as the old clamp but now comes preassembled with little rubberbands to keep it upright when placed on the rail. Best, August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Christopher Warfel *Sent:* Friday, June 26, 2015 2:41 PM *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack Someone in this thread mentioned a Unirac integrated bonding end clamp. Our supplier has that on the packing slip, but it was still the same end clamp we always receive. I have checked their website and do not see an integrated bonding end clamp; just mid clamp. Does Unirac make an integrated bonding end clamp? Thanks for any help. Chris On 6/25/2015 4:13 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: That decision was based on our distribution network offering better pricing on Unirac, and engineers being comfortable with it. Now with the integrated grounding from Unirac, I can't see moving away from it again barring a significant cost benefit. It also stacks and stocks easier than the Ironridge rails. On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 5:55 PM, Dana Brandt wrote: Hi Jason, We've used Unirac for years but have been contemplating Ironridge. I'm curious what your experience was and why you went back to Unirac? Anyone else have input on best racking systems for flush-mounted residential systems on comp roof? Thanks, Dana Dana Brandt Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC www.ecotechenergy.com dana at ecotechenergy.com 360.318.7646 On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:09 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: By Snap N Rack, you mean Sun Run... http://cleantechnica.com/2014/02/05/sunrun-acquires-rec-solars-residential-business-aee-solar-snapnrack-means/ I'm curious if these vertical integrators will still make their acquired brands available to small dealers through distribution. When SolarCity snatched up Zep, I had concerns about being able to service or add onto existing Zep systems we installed. That's definitely a concern going forward, and reason to perhaps stick with the most compatible racking solutions available. We used IronRidge for a while, which is largely compatible with Unirac, but now we're back on the Unirac bandwagon. Interesting times... Jason Szumlanski ​Fafco Solar​ On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Max Balchowsky wrote: We have been using Snap N' Rack for a while, Have lots of installs in Hawaii - so far no problems, I like the convenience of the design for snapping in the slider nut in mid rail, and also the ability to install the panels flush with the end of the rails…. Max Balchowsky Design Engineer SEE Systems 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 760-403-6810 "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" ------------------------------ *From:* Allen Frishman *To:* RE-wrenches *Sent:* Wednesday, February 5, 2014 6:17 AM *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack I am curious about the mid clamps on the snapnrack. The flange that rests on top of the solar panel frame is so small ~ 3/16". Anyone experience any problems with these failing in a big storm? With solar panel frames not being square it is nice to have a little extra to grab - I am always curious as to why these clips are made with such a small area to hold the panels down. All feedback on these clips is appreciated. *Al Frishman* AeonSolar *(917) 699-6641 - cell* *(888) 460-2867* *www.aeonsolar.com * On Jun 1, 2013, at 10:41 AM, Max Balchowsky wrote: Have installed last three systems (35Kw)with snap n rack. love it.... Max Balchowsky Design Engineer SEE Systems 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 760-403-6810 "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" ------------------------------ *From:* Solarguy *To:* 'RE-wrenches' *Sent:* Friday, May 31, 2013 10:11 PM *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack The only complaint with the Snapnrack rails is the thin wall can easily be distorted. This will allow the nut to drop out of its groove. Love the universal end clamps but have learned to assemble every one to check for proper fit before getting on the roof. Jim Duncan -----Original Message----- From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 7:32 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack Hello Wrenches, How would you rate the SnapNrack mounting systems against Unirac and other mounting systems? Thanks, Drake _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Preferences § 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 - = Backspace Tab q w e r t y u i o p [ ] Return capslock a s d f g h j k l ; ' \ shift ` z x c v b n m , . / shift English Deutsch Español Français Italiano Polski Português Русский alt alt Preferences _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Christopher Warfel, President ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Fri Jun 26 13:45:14 2015 From: Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com (Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2015 13:45:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Bank to Inverter Wiring Message-ID: Hi: >From time to time over the years I've come across systems where the routing of DC cables between the batteries and the inverter has been the cause of issues. I'm not referring to wire thickness or quality of terminations. For the purposes of this discussion, just assume that wire thickness and terminations are perfect. What I am referring to is the routing of the positive and negative battery cables. In particular, the loop area within the + and - cables as shown in the image below, The problem I've seen in systems with a large loop in the setup is that the inverter does not provide good surge power and can even go into low voltage shutdown during large surges. Recently this happened again and I wanted to get a better feel for it, so I did some math. For a cable length of about 12', the loop is an inductor which has a value of inductance of about 1 uH for side by side cables and as much as 6 uH for cables about 1 foot apart. This inductance is greatly multiplied by any ferrous metal in the loop and can easily be in the range of 10's to 100's of uH. Examples being cables which run in steel conduits or along the steel frame of a motor home. Inductance causes a voltage drop proportional to the rate at which the current is changing. To get an idea of how large that rate can be for typical inverters, I did surge tests with a 5kW inverter and found that the rate of change of current can be as high as 100A per milli-second or 100,000 Amps/second. Given that, the voltage drop of the wire inductance is then , Vdrop = (rate of change of current) x (inductance), Vdrop for 1 uH = (100,000 A/s) x (0.000001 H) = 0.1V Vdrop for 10 uH = (100,000 A/s) x (0.000001 H) = 1.0V Vdrop for 100 uH = (100,000 A/s) x (0.000001 H) = 10.0V clearly this is a problem. Have any of the wrenches had systems with this issue? If so, how often. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 14647 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 40194 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Jun 26 15:38:52 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2015 15:38:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] central vrs string inverters In-Reply-To: <019EB462-3F67-4A7F-8622-6884D5B39CEB@aeonsolar.com> References: <019EB462-3F67-4A7F-8622-6884D5B39CEB@aeonsolar.com> Message-ID: I don't have anything in terms of advice on the Tri-Power, but I have done microinverters on straight 208V three-phase and also 480V with a step-down transformer. While there are more potential points of failure, future service is straightforward. There are lots of capable people who can swap a micro. We have been called out to several 20-100kW central inverters that were essentially unserviceable due to obsolescence, bankruptcy, parts availability, and lack of qualified personnel. That could be a function of the crummy Florida commercial solar market, but it's something to consider. Lifetime service and replacement costs need to be considered in the ROI analysis, and despite micro's higher initial cost, there is a good argument to be made... On the other hand, while I have never used a Tri-Power, SMA's Sunny Boy's have been rock solid around here in demanding conditions. Jason Szumlanski On Fri, Jun 26, 2015 at 9:26 AM, Allen Frishman wrote: > Hi Wrenchers, > I am considering using 8 SMA Tri-power Inverters for a project with a 3 > phase 208V Grid which means I have to add a step down transformer (480V to > 208V). I am comparing this option to a central inverter. I have done > many of the central inverter systems at the 208V but have yet to try the > 20+ KW string inverters with the addition of a step down transformer. > > I know that both systems have there own pros and cons and I will really > appreciate some feedback from those that have experience doing both types. > > > For the central inverter there are fewer inverters to malfunction however > when one does the entire system is down. In my experience the Central > Inverters that I have used have been very reliable. > - Anyone seeing reliability issues with the SMA Tri-power 20KW and 24KW > string inverters? > > Note: My project is under NEC 2008. > > All feedback is appreciated. > > *Al Frishman* > AeonSolar > > *(917) 699-6641 <%28917%29%20699-6641> - cell* > *(888) 460-2867 <%28888%29%20460-2867>* > *www.aeonsolar.com * > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john at gosolar.co.nz Sat Jun 27 04:40:56 2015 From: john at gosolar.co.nz (John) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2015 20:40:56 +1200 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Bank to Inverter Wiring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002101d0b0b4$fc5f24c0$f51d6e40$@gosolar.co.nz> That is why for years we have been twisting those leads around each other. I was told it was to cancel out the opposing fields on the wires, but for whatever the correct technical reason is, we have always twisted those heavy wires. John V. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Sent: Saturday, 27 June 2015 5:45 a.m. To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Bank to Inverter Wiring Hi: >From time to time over the years I've come across systems where the routing of DC cables between the batteries and the inverter has been the cause of issues. I'm not referring to wire thickness or quality of terminations. For the purposes of this discussion, just assume that wire thickness and terminations are perfect. What I am referring to is the routing of the positive and negative battery cables. In particular, the loop area within the + and - cables as shown in the image below, The problem I've seen in systems with a large loop in the setup is that the inverter does not provide good surge power and can even go into low voltage shutdown during large surges. Recently this happened again and I wanted to get a better feel for it, so I did some math. For a cable length of about 12', the loop is an inductor which has a value of inductance of about 1 uH for side by side cables and as much as 6 uH for cables about 1 foot apart. This inductance is greatly multiplied by any ferrous metal in the loop and can easily be in the range of 10's to 100's of uH. Examples being cables which run in steel conduits or along the steel frame of a motor home. Inductance causes a voltage drop proportional to the rate at which the current is changing. To get an idea of how large that rate can be for typical inverters, I did surge tests with a 5kW inverter and found that the rate of change of current can be as high as 100A per milli-second or 100,000 Amps/second. Given that, the voltage drop of the wire inductance is then , Vdrop = (rate of change of current) x (inductance), Vdrop for 1 uH = (100,000 A/s) x (0.000001 H) = 0.1V Vdrop for 10 uH = (100,000 A/s) x (0.000001 H) = 1.0V Vdrop for 100 uH = (100,000 A/s) x (0.000001 H) = 10.0V clearly this is a problem. Have any of the wrenches had systems with this issue? If so, how often. JARMO ____________________________________________________________________________ _________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 14647 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 141 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image006.gif Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Jun 27 04:23:41 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2015 22:23:41 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Bank to Inverter Wiring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches Going back many many years, twisting the pairs together was the preferred way to run the cables between the inverter and batteries, this seamed to reduce noise, I have personally seen improvement of audio conditions. Doing this on the AC side does the opposite and creates noise on sound mixers and powered amps. Jerry On Fri, Jun 26, 2015 at 7:45 AM, wrote: > Hi: > > From time to time over the years I've come across systems where the > routing of DC cables between the batteries and the inverter has been the > cause of issues. > > I'm not referring to wire thickness or quality of terminations. For the > purposes of this discussion, just assume that wire thickness and > terminations are perfect. > > What I am referring to is the routing of the positive and negative battery > cables. In particular, the loop area within the + and - cables as shown in > the image below, > > > The problem I've seen in systems with a large loop in the setup is that > the inverter does not provide good surge power and can even go into low > voltage shutdown during large surges. > > Recently this happened again and I wanted to get a better feel for it, so > I did some math. > > For a cable length of about 12', the loop is an inductor which has a value > of inductance of about 1 uH for side by side cables and as much as 6 uH for > cables about 1 foot apart. > > This inductance is greatly multiplied by any ferrous metal in the loop and > can easily be in the range of 10's to 100's of uH. Examples being cables > which run in steel conduits or along the steel frame of a motor home. > > Inductance causes a voltage drop proportional to the rate at which the > current is changing. To get an idea of how large that rate can be for > typical inverters, I did surge tests with a 5kW inverter and found that the > rate of change of current can be as high as 100A per milli-second or > 100,000 Amps/second. > > Given that, the voltage drop of the wire inductance is then , Vdrop = > (rate of change of current) x (inductance), > > Vdrop for 1 uH = (100,000 A/s) x (0.000001 H) = 0.1V > Vdrop for 10 uH = (100,000 A/s) x (0.000001 H) = 1.0V > Vdrop for 100 uH = (100,000 A/s) x (0.000001 H) = 10.0V clearly this is > a problem. > > Have any of the wrenches had systems with this issue? If so, how often. > > > JARMO > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________________________ > > * Jarmo Venalainen* | * Schneider Electric ** | Xantrex Brand* | > *CANADA* | *Sales Application Engineer* > * Phone:* +604-422-2528 | *Tech Support:* 800-670-0707 | *Mobile:* > +604-505-0291 > * Email:* *jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com* > | *Site:** www.Xantrex.com* > | *Address:* 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC > V5G4M1 > > > > > > *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 40194 bytes Desc: not available URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Sat Jun 27 12:57:01 2015 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2015 06:57:01 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] central vrs string inverters In-Reply-To: References: <019EB462-3F67-4A7F-8622-6884D5B39CEB@aeonsolar.com> Message-ID: <000901d0b0fa$4ba8a340$e2f9e9c0$@com> Hey Al, I had a similar choice to make several months ago. There are not that many options out here in Hawaii—given the more demanding utility requirements for grid-tie inverters—for string inverters that are true 3-phase 120/208 while the choices are more abundant if you have 277/480 as the service voltage. The Fronius Symo has a 12 kW @ 120/208 model which I plan to use soon. For this last ~ 100 kW system we did, we used five SMA Tripowers and a step-down x-former to bring the voltage down to 120/208. As for transformers, note that Dongan (made in the U.S.) offers such high-efficiency x-formers even in stainless steel enclosures at a very reasonable price. Given the 1,000V DC max input possible for the Tripowers, we went into unknown territory with the AHJ here on the Big Island. While I spec’ed out 1 kV-rated conductors for the + and – DC conductors, I realized late in the game that I needed to use 1 kV-rated EGC wire from the roof as well. D’oh! Trying finding some of that at your local electrical supply. Finally, to my surprise and somewhat annoyance, we are being required to erect a protective barrier, i.e., fence, around the inverters—which are mounted on the exterior wall of a medical professional building—in order to keep them beyond the reach of the public, even though one would have to take covers off in order to expose the conductors. Always an adventure. marco From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Friday, June 26, 2015 9:39 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] central vrs string inverters I don't have anything in terms of advice on the Tri-Power, but I have done microinverters on straight 208V three-phase and also 480V with a step-down transformer. While there are more potential points of failure, future service is straightforward. There are lots of capable people who can swap a micro. We have been called out to several 20-100kW central inverters that were essentially unserviceable due to obsolescence, bankruptcy, parts availability, and lack of qualified personnel. That could be a function of the crummy Florida commercial solar market, but it's something to consider. Lifetime service and replacement costs need to be considered in the ROI analysis, and despite micro's higher initial cost, there is a good argument to be made... On the other hand, while I have never used a Tri-Power, SMA's Sunny Boy's have been rock solid around here in demanding conditions. Jason Szumlanski On Fri, Jun 26, 2015 at 9:26 AM, Allen Frishman wrote: Hi Wrenchers, I am considering using 8 SMA Tri-power Inverters for a project with a 3 phase 208V Grid which means I have to add a step down transformer (480V to 208V). I am comparing this option to a central inverter. I have done many of the central inverter systems at the 208V but have yet to try the 20+ KW string inverters with the addition of a step down transformer. I know that both systems have there own pros and cons and I will really appreciate some feedback from those that have experience doing both types. For the central inverter there are fewer inverters to malfunction however when one does the entire system is down. In my experience the Central Inverters that I have used have been very reliable. - Anyone seeing reliability issues with the SMA Tri-power 20KW and 24KW string inverters? Note: My project is under NEC 2008. All feedback is appreciated. Al Frishman AeonSolar (917) 699-6641 - cell (888) 460-2867 www.aeonsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Jun 27 12:51:24 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2015 12:51:24 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack In-Reply-To: <0b0b4ea5408d5cced7c23998f3491925@mail.gmail.com> References: <20130601003227.8A69B6B8227@homiemail-a52.g.dreamhost.com> <00e101ce5e75$b6c03f00$2440bd00$@1scom.net> <1370097670.35860.YahooMailNeo@web2803.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <9F9D749A-4DB6-4A49-9B56-A5021C5B30C6@aeonsolar.com> <1391622304.14269.YahooMailNeo@web2805.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <558DC6D8.2070409@entech-engineering.com> <0b0b4ea5408d5cced7c23998f3491925@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Yeah, if you have a single module on two rails, you still need to use WEEBs or another bonding method. Jason On Fri, Jun 26, 2015 at 5:49 PM, August Goers wrote: > Chris, > > > > You are correct – there is just a bonding Unirac mid clamp. The new SM end > clamp is basically the same as the old clamp but now comes preassembled > with little rubberbands to keep it upright when placed on the rail. > > > > Best, August > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Christopher Warfel > *Sent:* Friday, June 26, 2015 2:41 PM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack > > > > Someone in this thread mentioned a Unirac integrated bonding end clamp. > Our supplier has that on the packing slip, but it was still the same end > clamp we always receive. I have checked their website and do not see an > integrated bonding end clamp; just mid clamp. Does Unirac make an > integrated bonding end clamp? Thanks for any help. > > Chris > > On 6/25/2015 4:13 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > That decision was based on our distribution network offering better > pricing on Unirac, and engineers being comfortable with it. Now with the > integrated grounding from Unirac, I can't see moving away from it again > barring a significant cost benefit. It also stacks and stocks easier than > the Ironridge rails. > > > > > > > On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 5:55 PM, Dana Brandt > wrote: > > Hi Jason, > > We've used Unirac for years but have been contemplating Ironridge. I'm > curious what your experience was and why you went back to Unirac? > > Anyone else have input on best racking systems for flush-mounted > residential systems on comp roof? > > Thanks, > > > Dana > > Dana Brandt > Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC > www.ecotechenergy.com > dana at ecotechenergy.com > 360.318.7646 > > > > On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:09 PM, Jason Szumlanski > wrote: > > By Snap N Rack, you mean Sun Run... > > > > > http://cleantechnica.com/2014/02/05/sunrun-acquires-rec-solars-residential-business-aee-solar-snapnrack-means/ > > > > I'm curious if these vertical integrators will still make their acquired > brands available to small dealers through distribution. When SolarCity > snatched up Zep, I had concerns about being able to service or add onto > existing Zep systems we installed. That's definitely a concern going > forward, and reason to perhaps stick with the most compatible racking > solutions available. We used IronRidge for a while, which is largely > compatible with Unirac, but now we're back on the Unirac bandwagon. > > > > Interesting times... > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > ​Fafco Solar​ > > > > > > On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Max Balchowsky wrote: > > We have been using Snap N' Rack for a while, Have lots of installs in > Hawaii - so far no problems, I like the convenience of the design for > snapping in the slider nut in mid rail, and also the ability to install the > panels flush with the end of the rails…. > > > > Max Balchowsky > Design Engineer > SEE Systems > 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 > Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 > 760-403-6810 > > "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Allen Frishman > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 5, 2014 6:17 AM > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack > > > > I am curious about the mid clamps on the snapnrack. The flange that > rests on top of the solar panel frame is so small ~ 3/16". Anyone > experience any problems with these failing in a big storm? With solar > panel frames not being square it is nice to have a little extra to grab - I > am always curious as to why these clips are made with such a small area to > hold the panels down. > > > > All feedback on these clips is appreciated. > > *Al Frishman* > AeonSolar > > *(917) 699-6641 <%28917%29%20699-6641> - cell* > *(888) 460-2867 <%28888%29%20460-2867>* > *www.aeonsolar.com * > > > > On Jun 1, 2013, at 10:41 AM, Max Balchowsky wrote: > > > > Have installed last three systems (35Kw)with snap n rack. > > love it.... > > > > Max Balchowsky > Design Engineer > SEE Systems > 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 > Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 > 760-403-6810 > > "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Solarguy > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Sent:* Friday, May 31, 2013 10:11 PM > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack > > > > The only complaint with the Snapnrack rails is the thin wall can easily be > distorted. This will allow the nut to drop out of its groove. Love the > universal end clamps but have learned to assemble every one to check for > proper fit before getting on the roof. > > Jim Duncan > > -----Original Message----- > From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto: > re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake > Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 7:32 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack > > > > Hello Wrenches, > > > > How would you rate the SnapNrack mounting systems against Unirac and other > mounting systems? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Drake > > > > __________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Sun Jun 28 12:20:00 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2015 10:20:00 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Bank to Inverter Wiring In-Reply-To: <002101d0b0b4$fc5f24c0$f51d6e40$@gosolar.co.nz> References: <002101d0b0b4$fc5f24c0$f51d6e40$@gosolar.co.nz> Message-ID: <55901EB0.4070507@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 14647 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 141 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 4274 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Sun Jun 28 17:06:57 2015 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2015 15:06:57 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack In-Reply-To: <024f01d0af9c$505fa9b0$f11efd10$@solarwindworks.com> References: <20130601003227.8A69B6B8227@homiemail-a52.g.dreamhost.com> <00e101ce5e75$b6c03f00$2440bd00$@1scom.net> <1370097670.35860.YahooMailNeo@web2803.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <9F9D749A-4DB6-4A49-9B56-A5021C5B30C6@aeonsolar.com> <1391622304.14269.YahooMailNeo@web2805.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <024f01d0af9c$505fa9b0$f11efd10$@solarwindworks.com> Message-ID: Chris, It sounds (to me) that you are describing the bonding "tooth" dug through the aluminum frame and into the glass? or at least compressed the frame enough to break the glass? If that is the case then i'm betting that the clamp bolt was way over-torqued. You need to check the recommended tightening torque for the module and for the racking system you are using. For example, what we are using these days, Kinetic, the tightening torque for mid and end clamps is 12 ft-lb and here are some recommended clamping torques from some different module mfgrs.... Conergy 8 NM - 6 ft-lb Hanwha 5 NM - 3.7 ft-lb JA Solar 18-24 NM - 13-18 ft-lb These likely vary based on the construction of the module frame. I've also found that some module mfgrs do not list recommended tightening torques in their install manuals, so best to use discretion. We had a module break after clamping it down. The crew described it as 'putting the module in place, clamping it down and turning around to grab the next module and hearing a 'crack' followed by the crackling glass sound (if you have ever heard a module break, the crackling sound can last for a few minutes). The break pattern in the glass seemed to focus on a particular mid clamp. I used a torque wrench, set at around 10 ft-lb and checked all the mid-clamp bolts, increasing the torque setting by a few ft-lb each time until it finally turned a bolt instead of clicking. I found that most of the bolts were close to 30 ft-lb and the one that appeared to break the glass was about 34 ft-lb. Suffice to say, we were getting carried away with tightening using cordless impact drivers. At that point i and the rest of the crew started using the torque wrench as we were going along until we had a better feel for what was the proper torque. (i've done this before, but it is something that needs to be self "re-calibrated" often. *Benn Kilburn * CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc 6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7 P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com [image: email] [image: facebook] [image: twitter] [image: linkedin] [image: google] [image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal] On Thu, Jun 25, 2015 at 5:11 PM, Chris Worcester wrote: > Hi Jason, > > Have you or others been using the new UniRac SM mid and end clamps with > the integrated bonding yet? My concern is the “Stainless steel Midclamp > points, 2 per module, pierce module frame anodization to bond module to > module through clamp.” > > We had an MSI Alpha + self-bonding midclamp shatter the glass on an LG 280 > last fall, as the factory set point was sticking out too far, so as it was > being tightened down, on top of the module the point dug through the > module’s top frame hitting the glass, shattering it. > > I do wonder if there are any issues with this “point” on the UniRac > midclamps potential for doing the same damage? > > > > Chris Worcester > > Solar Wind Works > > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > > Office 530-582-4503 > > Cell 530-448-9692 > > Fax 530-582-4603 > > www.solarwindworks.com > > chris at solarwindworks.com > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski > *Sent:* Thursday, June 25, 2015 1:13 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack > > > > That decision was based on our distribution network offering better > pricing on Unirac, and engineers being comfortable with it. Now with the > integrated grounding from Unirac, I can't see moving away from it again > barring a significant cost benefit. It also stacks and stocks easier than > the Ironridge rails. > > > > > > > On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 5:55 PM, Dana Brandt > wrote: > > Hi Jason, > > We've used Unirac for years but have been contemplating Ironridge. I'm > curious what your experience was and why you went back to Unirac? > > Anyone else have input on best racking systems for flush-mounted > residential systems on comp roof? > > Thanks, > > > Dana > > Dana Brandt > Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC > www.ecotechenergy.com > dana at ecotechenergy.com > 360.318.7646 > > > > On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:09 PM, Jason Szumlanski > wrote: > > By Snap N Rack, you mean Sun Run... > > > > > http://cleantechnica.com/2014/02/05/sunrun-acquires-rec-solars-residential-business-aee-solar-snapnrack-means/ > > > > I'm curious if these vertical integrators will still make their acquired > brands available to small dealers through distribution. When SolarCity > snatched up Zep, I had concerns about being able to service or add onto > existing Zep systems we installed. That's definitely a concern going > forward, and reason to perhaps stick with the most compatible racking > solutions available. We used IronRidge for a while, which is largely > compatible with Unirac, but now we're back on the Unirac bandwagon. > > > > Interesting times... > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > ​Fafco Solar​ > > > > > > On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Max Balchowsky wrote: > > We have been using Snap N' Rack for a while, Have lots of installs in > Hawaii - so far no problems, I like the convenience of the design for > snapping in the slider nut in mid rail, and also the ability to install the > panels flush with the end of the rails…. > > > > Max Balchowsky > Design Engineer > SEE Systems > 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 > Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 > 760-403-6810 > > "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Allen Frishman > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 5, 2014 6:17 AM > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack > > > > I am curious about the mid clamps on the snapnrack. The flange that > rests on top of the solar panel frame is so small ~ 3/16". Anyone > experience any problems with these failing in a big storm? With solar > panel frames not being square it is nice to have a little extra to grab - I > am always curious as to why these clips are made with such a small area to > hold the panels down. > > > > All feedback on these clips is appreciated. > > *Al Frishman* > AeonSolar > > *(917) 699-6641 <%28917%29%20699-6641> - cell* > *(888) 460-2867 <%28888%29%20460-2867>* > *www.aeonsolar.com * > > > > On Jun 1, 2013, at 10:41 AM, Max Balchowsky wrote: > > > > Have installed last three systems (35Kw)with snap n rack. > > love it.... > > > > Max Balchowsky > Design Engineer > SEE Systems > 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 > Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 > 760-403-6810 > > "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Solarguy > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Sent:* Friday, May 31, 2013 10:11 PM > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack > > > > The only complaint with the Snapnrack rails is the thin wall can easily be > distorted. This will allow the nut to drop out of its groove. Love the > universal end clamps but have learned to assemble every one to check for > proper fit before getting on the roof. > > Jim Duncan > > -----Original Message----- > From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto: > re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake > Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 7:32 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack > > > > Hello Wrenches, > > > > How would you rate the SnapNrack mounting systems against Unirac and other > mounting systems? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Drake > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > Preferences > > § > > 1 > > 2 > > 3 > > 4 > > 5 > > 6 > > 7 > > 8 > > 9 > > 0 > > - > > = > > Backspace > > Tab > > q > > w > > e > > r > > t > > y > > u > > i > > o > > p > > [ > > ] > > Return > > capslock > > a > > s > > d > > f > > g > > h > > j > > k > > l > > ; > > ' > > \ > > shift > > ` > > z > > x > > c > > v > > b > > n > > m > > , > > . > > / > > shift > > English > > Deutsch > > Español > > Français > > Italiano > > Polski > > Português > > Русский > > alt > > alt > > Preferences > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sun Jun 28 17:27:36 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2015 15:27:36 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack In-Reply-To: References: <20130601003227.8A69B6B8227@homiemail-a52.g.dreamhost.com> <00e101ce5e75$b6c03f00$2440bd00$@1scom.net> <1370097670.35860.YahooMailNeo@web2803.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <9F9D749A-4DB6-4A49-9B56-A5021C5B30C6@aeonsolar.com> <1391622304.14269.YahooMailNeo@web2805.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <024f01d0af9c$505fa9b0$f11efd10$@solarwindworks.com> Message-ID: <559066C8.40207@solarray.com> Besides your note that cordless impact drivers can over torque the clamps, also they spin the bolts too fast which can lead to spalling of the SS hardware. We now hand torque those connects. Finally, most torque specs are for lubricated bolts. We use anti-seize on the threads before torquing. Using a cordless impact driver and no lube can cause not only module damage but also clamp damage, and end up with clamps not actually securing the modules, because the bolts spalled out before fully clamping. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 6/28/2015 3:06 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > Chris, > It sounds (to me) that you are describing the bonding "tooth" dug > through the aluminum frame and into the glass? or at least compressed > the frame enough to break the glass? If that is the case then i'm > betting that the clamp bolt was way over-torqued. > > You need to check the recommended tightening torque for the module and > for the racking system you are using. For example, what we are using > these days, Kinetic, the tightening torque for mid and end clamps is > 12 ft-lb and here are some recommended clamping torques from some > different module mfgrs.... > Conergy 8 NM - 6 ft-lb > Hanwha 5 NM - 3.7 ft-lb > JA Solar 18-24 NM - 13-18 ft-lb > These likely vary based on the construction of the module frame. > I've also found that some module mfgrs do not list recommended > tightening torques in their install manuals, so best to use discretion. > > We had a module break after clamping it down. The crew described it > as 'putting the module in place, clamping it down and turning around > to grab the next module and hearing a 'crack' followed by the > crackling glass sound (if you have ever heard a module break, the > crackling sound can last for a few minutes). The break pattern in the > glass seemed to focus on a particular mid clamp. I used a torque > wrench, set at around 10 ft-lb and checked all the mid-clamp bolts, > increasing the torque setting by a few ft-lb each time until it > finally turned a bolt instead of clicking. I found that most of the > bolts were close to 30 ft-lb and the one that appeared to break the > glass was about 34 ft-lb. > Suffice to say, we were getting carried away with tightening using > cordless impact drivers. > At that point i and the rest of the crew started using the torque > wrench as we were going along until we had a better feel for what was > the proper torque. (i've done this before, but it is something that > needs to be self "re-calibrated" often. > > > *Benn Kilburn * > CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc > 6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7 > P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com > > email facebook > twitter > linkedin > > google > > SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal > > > On Thu, Jun 25, 2015 at 5:11 PM, Chris Worcester > > wrote: > > Hi Jason, > > Have you or others been using the new UniRac SM mid and end clamps > with the integrated bonding yet? My concern is the “Stainless > steel Midclamp points, 2 per module, pierce module frame > anodization to bond module to module through clamp.” > > We had an MSI Alpha + self-bonding midclamp shatter the glass on > an LG 280 last fall, as the factory set point was sticking out too > far, so as it was being tightened down, on top of the module the > point dug through the module’s top frame hitting the glass, > shattering it. > > I do wonder if there are any issues with this “point” on the > UniRac midclamps potential for doing the same damage? > > Chris Worcester > > Solar Wind Works > > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > > Office 530-582-4503 > > Cell 530-448-9692 > > Fax 530-582-4603 > > www.solarwindworks.com > > chris at solarwindworks.com > > *From:*RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of > *Jason Szumlanski > *Sent:* Thursday, June 25, 2015 1:13 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack > > That decision was based on our distribution network offering > better pricing on Unirac, and engineers being comfortable with it. > Now with the integrated grounding from Unirac, I can't see moving > away from it again barring a significant cost benefit. It also > stacks and stocks easier than the Ironridge rails. > > > On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 5:55 PM, Dana Brandt > > wrote: > > Hi Jason, > > We've used Unirac for years but have been contemplating Ironridge. > I'm curious what your experience was and why you went back to Unirac? > > Anyone else have input on best racking systems for flush-mounted > residential systems on comp roof? > > Thanks, > > > Dana > > Dana Brandt > Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC > www.ecotechenergy.com > dana at ecotechenergy.com > 360.318.7646 > > On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:09 PM, Jason Szumlanski > > wrote: > > By Snap N Rack, you mean Sun Run... > > http://cleantechnica.com/2014/02/05/sunrun-acquires-rec-solars-residential-business-aee-solar-snapnrack-means/ > > I'm curious if these vertical integrators will still make their > acquired brands available to small dealers through distribution. > When SolarCity snatched up Zep, I had concerns about being able to > service or add onto existing Zep systems we installed. That's > definitely a concern going forward, and reason to perhaps stick > with the most compatible racking solutions available. We used > IronRidge for a while, which is largely compatible with Unirac, > but now we're back on the Unirac bandwagon. > > Interesting times... > > Jason Szumlanski > > ​Fafco Solar​ > > On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Max Balchowsky > wrote: > > We have been using Snap N' Rack for a while, Have lots of installs > in Hawaii - so far no problems, I like the convenience of the > design for snapping in the slider nut in mid rail, and also the > ability to install the panels flush with the end of the rails…. > > Max Balchowsky > Design Engineer > SEE Systems > 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 > Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 > 760-403-6810 > > "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:*Allen Frishman > > *To:* RE-wrenches > > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 5, 2014 6:17 AM > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack > > I am curious about the mid clamps on the snapnrack. The flange > that rests on top of the solar panel frame is so small ~ 3/16". > Anyone experience any problems with these failing in a big storm? > With solar panel frames not being square it is nice to have a > little extra to grab - I am always curious as to why these clips > are made with such a small area to hold the panels down. > > All feedback on these clips is appreciated. > > /Al Frishman/ > AeonSolar > > /(917) 699-6641 - cell/ > /(888) 460-2867 / > /www.aeonsolar.com / > > On Jun 1, 2013, at 10:41 AM, Max Balchowsky wrote: > > > > Have installed last three systems (35Kw)with snap n rack. > > love it.... > > Max Balchowsky > Design Engineer > SEE Systems > 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 > Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 > 760-403-6810 > > "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:*Solarguy > > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > > *Sent:* Friday, May 31, 2013 10:11 PM > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack > > The only complaint with the Snapnrack rails is the thin wall can > easily be distorted. This will allow the nut to drop out of its > groove. Love the universal end clamps but have learned to assemble > every one to check for proper fit before getting on the roof. > > Jim Duncan > > -----Original Message----- > From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] On Behalf Of Drake > Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 7:32 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack > > Hello Wrenches, > > How would you rate the SnapNrack mounting systems against Unirac > and other mounting systems? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > Preferences > > § > > 1 > > 2 > > 3 > > 4 > > 5 > > 6 > > 7 > > 8 > > 9 > > 0 > > - > > = > > Backspace > > Tab > > q > > w > > e > > r > > t > > y > > u > > i > > o > > p > > [ > > ] > > Return > > capslock > > a > > s > > d > > f > > g > > h > > j > > k > > l > > ; > > ' > > \ > > shift > > ` > > z > > x > > c > > v > > b > > n > > m > > , > > . > > / > > shift > > English > > Deutsch > > Español > > Français > > Italiano > > Polski > > Português > > Русский > > alt > > alt > > Preferences > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sun Jun 28 19:15:56 2015 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2015 19:15:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack In-Reply-To: <559066C8.40207@solarray.com> References: <20130601003227.8A69B6B8227@homiemail-a52.g.dreamhost.com> <00e101ce5e75$b6c03f00$2440bd00$@1scom.net> <1370097670.35860.YahooMailNeo@web2803.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <9F9D749A-4DB6-4A49-9B56-A5021C5B30C6@aeonsolar.com> <1391622304.14269.YahooMailNeo@web2805.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <024f01d0af9c$505fa9b0$f11efd10$@solarwindworks.com> <559066C8.40207@solarray.com> Message-ID: <20150628231621.D4A8910315@che.dreamhost.com> I think you are referring to galling, not spalling which is a concrete and rock phenomenon. Sincerely, Glenn Burt Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. -----Original Message----- From: "Ray Walters" Sent: ‎6/‎28/‎2015 17:27 To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack Besides your note that cordless impact drivers can over torque the clamps, also they spin the bolts too fast which can lead to spalling of the SS hardware. We now hand torque those connects. Finally, most torque specs are for lubricated bolts. We use anti-seize on the threads before torquing. Using a cordless impact driver and no lube can cause not only module damage but also clamp damage, and end up with clamps not actually securing the modules, because the bolts spalled out before fully clamping. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 6/28/2015 3:06 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > Chris, > It sounds (to me) that you are describing the bonding "tooth" dug > through the aluminum frame and into the glass? or at least compressed > the frame enough to break the glass? If that is the case then i'm > betting that the clamp bolt was way over-torqued. > > You need to check the recommended tightening torque for the module and > for the racking system you are using. For example, what we are using > these days, Kinetic, the tightening torque for mid and end clamps is > 12 ft-lb and here are some recommended clamping torques from some > different module mfgrs.... > Conergy 8 NM - 6 ft-lb > Hanwha 5 NM - 3.7 ft-lb > JA Solar 18-24 NM - 13-18 ft-lb > These likely vary based on the construction of the module frame. > I've also found that some module mfgrs do not list recommended > tightening torques in their install manuals, so best to use discretion. > > We had a module break after clamping it down. The crew described it > as 'putting the module in place, clamping it down and turning around > to grab the next module and hearing a 'crack' followed by the > crackling glass sound (if you have ever heard a module break, the > crackling sound can last for a few minutes). The break pattern in the > glass seemed to focus on a particular mid clamp. I used a torque > wrench, set at around 10 ft-lb and checked all the mid-clamp bolts, > increasing the torque setting by a few ft-lb each time until it > finally turned a bolt instead of clicking. I found that most of the > bolts were close to 30 ft-lb and the one that appeared to break the > glass was about 34 ft-lb. > Suffice to say, we were getting carried away with tightening using > cordless impact drivers. > At that point i and the rest of the crew started using the torque > wrench as we were going along until we had a better feel for what was > the proper torque. (i've done this before, but it is something that > needs to be self "re-calibrated" often. > > > *Benn Kilburn * > CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc > 6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7 > P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com > > email facebook > twitter > linkedin > > google > > SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal > > > On Thu, Jun 25, 2015 at 5:11 PM, Chris Worcester > > wrote: > > Hi Jason, > > Have you or others been using the new UniRac SM mid and end clamps > with the integrated bonding yet? My concern is the “Stainless > steel Midclamp points, 2 per module, pierce module frame > anodization to bond module to module through clamp.” > > We had an MSI Alpha + self-bonding midclamp shatter the glass on > an LG 280 last fall, as the factory set point was sticking out too > far, so as it was being tightened down, on top of the module the > point dug through the module’s top frame hitting the glass, > shattering it. > > I do wonder if there are any issues with this “point” on the > UniRac midclamps potential for doing the same damage? > > Chris Worcester > > Solar Wind Works > > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > > Office 530-582-4503 > > Cell 530-448-9692 > > Fax 530-582-4603 > > www.solarwindworks.com > > chris at solarwindworks.com > > *From:*RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of > *Jason Szumlanski > *Sent:* Thursday, June 25, 2015 1:13 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack > > That decision was based on our distribution network offering > better pricing on Unirac, and engineers being comfortable with it. > Now with the integrated grounding from Unirac, I can't see moving > away from it again barring a significant cost benefit. It also > stacks and stocks easier than the Ironridge rails. > > > On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 5:55 PM, Dana Brandt > > wrote: > > Hi Jason, > > We've used Unirac for years but have been contemplating Ironridge. > I'm curious what your experience was and why you went back to Unirac? > > Anyone else have input on best racking systems for flush-mounted > residential systems on comp roof? > > Thanks, > > > Dana > > Dana Brandt > Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC > www.ecotechenergy.com > dana at ecotechenergy.com > 360.318.7646 > > On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:09 PM, Jason Szumlanski > > wrote: > > By Snap N Rack, you mean Sun Run... > > http://cleantechnica.com/2014/02/05/sunrun-acquires-rec-solars-residential-business-aee-solar-snapnrack-means/ > > I'm curious if these vertical integrators will still make their > acquired brands available to small dealers through distribution. > When SolarCity snatched up Zep, I had concerns about being able to > service or add onto existing Zep systems we installed. That's > definitely a concern going forward, and reason to perhaps stick > with the most compatible racking solutions available. We used > IronRidge for a while, which is largely compatible with Unirac, > but now we're back on the Unirac bandwagon. > > Interesting times... > > Jason Szumlanski > > ​Fafco Solar​ > > On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Max Balchowsky > wrote: > > We have been using Snap N' Rack for a while, Have lots of installs > in Hawaii - so far no problems, I like the convenience of the > design for snapping in the slider nut in mid rail, and also the > ability to install the panels flush with the end of the rails…. > > Max Balchowsky > Design Engineer > SEE Systems > 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 > Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 > 760-403-6810 > > "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:*Allen Frishman > > *To:* RE-wrenches > > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 5, 2014 6:17 AM > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack > > I am curious about the mid clamps on the snapnrack. The flange > that rests on top of the solar panel frame is so small ~ 3/16". > Anyone experience any problems with these failing in a big storm? > With solar panel frames not being square it is nice to have a > little extra to grab - I am always curious as to why these clips > are made with such a small area to hold the panels down. > > All feedback on these clips is appreciated. > > /Al Frishman/ > AeonSolar > > /(917) 699-6641 - cell/ > /(888) 460-2867 / > /www.aeonsolar.com / > > On Jun 1, 2013, at 10:41 AM, Max Balchowsky wrote: > > > > Have installed last three systems (35Kw)with snap n rack. > > love it.... > > Max Balchowsky > Design Engineer > SEE Systems > 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 > Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 > 760-403-6810 > > "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:*Solarguy > > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > > *Sent:* Friday, May 31, 2013 10:11 PM > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack > > The only complaint with the Snapnrack rails is the thin wall can > easily be distorted. This will allow the nut to drop out of its > groove. Love the universal end clamps but have learned to assemble > every one to check for proper fit before getting on the roof. > > Jim Duncan > > -----Original Message----- > From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] On Behalf Of Drake > Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 7:32 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack > > Hello Wrenches, > > How would you rate the SnapNrack mounting systems against Unirac > and other mounting systems? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > [The entire original message is not included.] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sun Jun 28 23:48:40 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2015 21:48:40 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack In-Reply-To: <20150628231621.D4A8910315@che.dreamhost.com> References: <20130601003227.8A69B6B8227@homiemail-a52.g.dreamhost.com> <00e101ce5e75$b6c03f00$2440bd00$@1scom.net> <1370097670.35860.YahooMailNeo@web2803.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <9F9D749A-4DB6-4A49-9B56-A5021C5B30C6@aeonsolar.com> <1391622304.14269.YahooMailNeo@web2805.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <024f01d0af9c$505fa9b0$f11efd10$@solarwindworks.com> <559066C8.40207@solarray.com> <20150628231621.D4A8910315@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <5590C018.4070207@solarray.com> Thanks Glenn. I always get those wrong. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 6/28/2015 5:15 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: > I think you are referring to galling, not spalling which is a concrete > and rock phenomenon. > > Sincerely, > Glenn Burt > Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > From: Ray Walters > Sent: ‎6/‎28/‎2015 17:27 > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack > > Besides your note that cordless impact drivers can over torque the > clamps, also they spin the bolts too fast which can lead to spalling of > the SS hardware. > We now hand torque those connects. Finally, most torque specs are for > lubricated bolts. We use anti-seize on the threads before torquing. > Using a cordless impact driver and no lube can cause not only module > damage but also clamp damage, and end up with clamps not actually > securing the modules, because the bolts spalled out before fully clamping. > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > On 6/28/2015 3:06 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > > Chris, > > It sounds (to me) that you are describing the bonding "tooth" dug > > through the aluminum frame and into the glass? or at least compressed > > the frame enough to break the glass? If that is the case then i'm > > betting that the clamp bolt was way over-torqued. > > > > You need to check the recommended tightening torque for the module and > > for the racking system you are using. For example, what we are using > > these days, Kinetic, the tightening torque for mid and end clamps is > > 12 ft-lb and here are some recommended clamping torques from some > > different module mfgrs.... > > Conergy 8 NM - 6 ft-lb > > Hanwha 5 NM - 3.7 ft-lb > > JA Solar 18-24 NM - 13-18 ft-lb > > These likely vary based on the construction of the module frame. > > I've also found that some module mfgrs do not list recommended > > tightening torques in their install manuals, so best to use discretion. > > > > We had a module break after clamping it down. The crew described it > > as 'putting the module in place, clamping it down and turning around > > to grab the next module and hearing a 'crack' followed by the > > crackling glass sound (if you have ever heard a module break, the > > crackling sound can last for a few minutes). The break pattern in the > > glass seemed to focus on a particular mid clamp. I used a torque > > wrench, set at around 10 ft-lb and checked all the mid-clamp bolts, > > increasing the torque setting by a few ft-lb each time until it > > finally turned a bolt instead of clicking. I found that most of the > > bolts were close to 30 ft-lb and the one that appeared to break the > > glass was about 34 ft-lb. > > Suffice to say, we were getting carried away with tightening using > > cordless impact drivers. > > At that point i and the rest of the crew started using the torque > > wrench as we were going along until we had a better feel for what was > > the proper torque. (i've done this before, but it is something that > > needs to be self "re-calibrated" often. > > > > > > *Benn Kilburn * > > CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc > > 6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7 > > P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com > > > > email facebook > > twitter > > linkedin > > > > > > google > > > > SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 25, 2015 at 5:11 PM, Chris Worcester > > > wrote: > > > > Hi Jason, > > > > Have you or others been using the new UniRac SM mid and end clamps > > with the integrated bonding yet? My concern is the “Stainless > > steel Midclamp points, 2 per module, pierce module frame > > anodization to bond module to module through clamp.” > > > > We had an MSI Alpha + self-bonding midclamp shatter the glass on > > an LG 280 last fall, as the factory set point was sticking out too > > far, so as it was being tightened down, on top of the module the > > point dug through the module’s top frame hitting the glass, > > shattering it. > > > > I do wonder if there are any issues with this “point” on the > > UniRac midclamps potential for doing the same damage? > > > > Chris Worcester > > > > Solar Wind Works > > > > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > > > > Office 530-582-4503 > > > > Cell 530-448-9692 > > > > Fax 530-582-4603 > > > > www.solarwindworks.com > > > > chris at solarwindworks.com > > > > *From:*RE-wrenches > > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > > ] *On Behalf Of > > *Jason Szumlanski > > *Sent:* Thursday, June 25, 2015 1:13 PM > > *To:* RE-wrenches > > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack > > > > That decision was based on our distribution network offering > > better pricing on Unirac, and engineers being comfortable with it. > > Now with the integrated grounding from Unirac, I can't see moving > > away from it again barring a significant cost benefit. It also > > stacks and stocks easier than the Ironridge rails. > > > > > > On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 5:55 PM, Dana Brandt > > > wrote: > > > > Hi Jason, > > > > We've used Unirac for years but have been contemplating Ironridge. > > I'm curious what your experience was and why you went back to > Unirac? > > > > Anyone else have input on best racking systems for flush-mounted > > residential systems on comp roof? > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Dana > > > > Dana Brandt > > Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC > > www.ecotechenergy.com > > dana at ecotechenergy.com > > 360.318.7646 > > > > On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:09 PM, Jason Szumlanski > > > wrote: > > > > By Snap N Rack, you mean Sun Run... > > > > > http://cleantechnica.com/2014/02/05/sunrun-acquires-rec-solars-residential-business-aee-solar-snapnrack-means/ > > > > I'm curious if these vertical integrators will still make their > > acquired brands available to small dealers through distribution. > > When SolarCity snatched up Zep, I had concerns about being able to > > service or add onto existing Zep systems we installed. That's > > definitely a concern going forward, and reason to perhaps stick > > with the most compatible racking solutions available. We used > > IronRidge for a while, which is largely compatible with Unirac, > > but now we're back on the Unirac bandwagon. > > > > Interesting times... > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > ​Fafco Solar​ > > > > On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Max Balchowsky > > wrote: > > > > We have been using Snap N' Rack for a while, Have lots of installs > > in Hawaii - so far no problems, I like the convenience of the > > design for snapping in the slider nut in mid rail, and also the > > ability to install the panels flush with the end of the rails…. > > > > Max Balchowsky > > Design Engineer > > SEE Systems > > 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 > > Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 > > 760-403-6810 > > > > "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > *From:*Allen Frishman > > > > *To:* RE-wrenches > > > > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 5, 2014 6:17 AM > > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack > > > > I am curious about the mid clamps on the snapnrack. The flange > > that rests on top of the solar panel frame is so small ~ 3/16". > > Anyone experience any problems with these failing in a big storm? > > With solar panel frames not being square it is nice to have a > > little extra to grab - I am always curious as to why these clips > > are made with such a small area to hold the panels down. > > > > All feedback on these clips is appreciated. > > > > /Al Frishman/ > > AeonSolar > > > > /(917) 699-6641 - cell/ > > /(888) 460-2867 / > > /www.aeonsolar.com / > > > > On Jun 1, 2013, at 10:41 AM, Max Balchowsky wrote: > > > > > > > > Have installed last three systems (35Kw)with snap n rack. > > > > love it.... > > > > Max Balchowsky > > Design Engineer > > SEE Systems > > 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 > > Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 > > 760-403-6810 > > > > "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > *From:*Solarguy > > > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > > > > *Sent:* Friday, May 31, 2013 10:11 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack > > > > The only complaint with the Snapnrack rails is the thin wall can > > easily be distorted. This will allow the nut to drop out of its > > groove. Love the universal end clamps but have learned to assemble > > every one to check for proper fit before getting on the roof. > > > > Jim Duncan > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > > ] On Behalf Of > Drake > > Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 7:32 PM > > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack > > > > Hello Wrenches, > > > > How would you rate the SnapNrack mounting systems against Unirac > > and other mounting systems? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Drake > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > > > [The entire original message is not included.] > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Mon Jun 29 00:48:54 2015 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2015 22:48:54 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Combiner Message-ID: Hi REwrenches, Does anyone know where I can get a UL listed battery combiner good for <1500A DC, 48V, preferably with a shunt? Does this exist? Thanks -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From boB at midnitesolar.com Mon Jun 29 01:30:19 2015 From: boB at midnitesolar.com (boB at midnitesolar.com) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2015 22:30:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Bank to Inverter Wiring In-Reply-To: <55901EB0.4070507@sindelarsolar.com> References: <002101d0b0b4$fc5f24c0$f51d6e40$@gosolar.co.nz> <55901EB0.4070507@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <5590D7EB.2090004@midnitesolar.com> On 6/28/2015 9:20 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: >>>>I'm not an EE, but I can't see what difference twisting would make in the absence of a building/collapsing field as is normal with AC.<<<< It is little known that with the typical inverters that use the heavy power transformers, have a lot of AC 120 Hz (or 100 Hz for 50 Hz systems) current mixed in with that DC battery current. The AC output current reflects back to the input as ripple current. This is why you want to have at least short as possible Sbattery cable runs AND keep the wires as close together as possible. Twisting the battery cables may help a bit but that is probably overkill. The problem has to do with inductance in the battery cables. You can use as big of cable as you can fit in to reduce resistance, but that will not help to lower the inductance. The problems you can sometimes have with high inductance is that L-C resonance at the inverter can raise the peak voltages seen at the inverter input terminals and can be hard on the inverter. Then again, the high frequency, lighter weight inverters will typically keep most of that ripple inside, between the DC input and AC output and battery cable inductance will not be as much of a problem on the battery cables. boB Gudgel On 6/28/2015 9:20 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > As a matter of course I have always run the positive and negative > conductors of high-current cable pairs together, but have never > deliberately twisted them, and have never known of any related problems. > The most obvious example of this would be 4/0 battery/inverter cables > in a 24V system, with a 250A GJ-class breaker or (prior to that) a > 300A or 400A Class T fuse. It's pretty tough to thread a twisted pair > of 4/0 USE/RHH/RHW cables through a 2" elbow or LB from inverter > enclosure to battery enclosure. > I'm not an EE, but I can't see what difference twisting would make in > the absence of a building/collapsing field as is normal with AC. > I have twisted AC conductors together in the past when clients have > expressed concerns about EMF from their equipment and wiring, but only AC. > Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > ** > > On 6/27/2015 2:40 AM, John wrote: >> >> That is why for years we have been twisting those leads around each >> other. I was told it was to cancel out the opposing fields on the >> wires, but for whatever the correct technical reason is, we have >> always twisted those heavy wires. John V. >> >> *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] >> *On Behalf Of *Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com >> *Sent:* Saturday, 27 June 2015 5:45 a.m. >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Battery Bank to Inverter Wiring >> >> Hi: >> >> From time to time over the years I've come across systems where the >> routing of DC cables between the batteries and the inverter has been >> the cause of issues. >> >> I'm not referring to wire thickness or quality of terminations. For >> the purposes of this discussion, just assume that wire thickness and >> terminations are perfect. >> >> What I am referring to is the routing of the positive and negative >> battery cables. In particular, the loop area within the + and - >> cables as shown in the image below, >> >> The problem I've seen in systems with a large loop in the setup is >> that the inverter does not provide good surge power and can even go >> into low voltage shutdown during large surges. >> >> Recently this happened again and I wanted to get a better feel for >> it, so I did some math. >> >> For a cable length of about 12', the loop is an inductor which has a >> value of inductance of about 1 uH for side by side cables and as much >> as 6 uH for cables about 1 foot apart. >> >> This inductance is greatly multiplied by any ferrous metal in the >> loop and can easily be in the range of 10's to 100's of uH. Examples >> being cables which run in steel conduits or along the steel frame of >> a motor home. >> >> Inductance causes a voltage drop proportional to the rate at which >> the current is changing. To get an idea of how large that rate can >> be for typical inverters, I did surge tests with a 5kW inverter and >> found that the rate of change of current can be as high as 100A per >> milli-second or 100,000 Amps/second. >> >> Given that, the voltage drop of the wire inductance is then , Vdrop = >> (rate of change of current) x (inductance), >> >> Vdrop for 1 uH = (100,000 A/s) x (0.000001 H) = 0.1V >> Vdrop for 10 uH = (100,000 A/s) x (0.000001 H) = 1.0V >> Vdrop for 100 uH = (100,000 A/s) x (0.000001 H) = 10.0V clearly this >> is a problem. >> >> Have any of the wrenches had systems with this issue? If so, how often. >> >> >> JARMO >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Richard.L.Ratico at valley.net Mon Jun 29 06:56:38 2015 From: Richard.L.Ratico at valley.net (Richard L Ratico) Date: 29 Jun 2015 06:56:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Combiner Message-ID: <179447752@retriever.VALLEY.NET> Mac, Try Boltswitch. http://www.boltswitch.com/pdf/135.pdf Dick Ratico Solarwind Electric -- --- You wrote: Hi REwrenches, Does anyone know where I can get a UL listed battery combiner good for <1500A DC, 48V, preferably with a shunt? Does this exist? Thanks -- Mac Lewis --- end of quote --- From sunengser at gmail.com Mon Jun 29 10:15:14 2015 From: sunengser at gmail.com (Bill Hoffer) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 07:15:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module defect? Cell interconnections In-Reply-To: References: <11594F80-AB82-4236-AFE3-B510F3027FFC@skyfireenergy.com> Message-ID: Benn I personally would not accept these modules, the defect is what you can see and makes me wonder of how good the remainder of the soldered connection is. It is a red flag and very likely will become a problem in the future under load thermal cycling. Shading of the cell is the least of the worries. I have seen cells in the Star Center ( granted 15 years + age and early technology) that did have hot spots developing where there was obvious misalignment of bus bars. Movement of the module can lift the bus bar enough to cause frictional heating. At a very minimum these modules then to be on a watch list to detect issues before they become a real problem. At the module plant I work for this would be an immediate down grade to a B module if it flashed properly and a C grade module if it flashed low. We size our bus bars slightly larger then then the silk screen and if we see any silk screening on the sides it becomes a B grade module and is priced accordingly. Bill On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 2:42 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > > Thanks for your comments Brian. I would also consider these to be "low > grade", even though we did not order or pay for "low grade". I did get in > touch with the module manufacturer and found out that these did sneak past > their QC checkpoint. I was told that their general tolerance for the > bus/ribbon alignment is within 1/2 the ribbon width. > > I was told that internal arcing is not a concern here because the > individual cell is at the same potential, so arcing should not happen with > the ribbon/bus being misaligned. > Yes, the small amount of cell shading will reduce output, but it is a > minute amount of shading, so the loss is negligible.(?) > > I would appreciate any feedback from any other module manufacturers on > this, if we have any on this list? > > Benn > > *Benn Kilburn * > CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc > 6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7 > P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com > [image: email] [image: facebook] > [image: twitter] > [image: linkedin] > > [image: google] > > [image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal] > > On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 12:31 PM, Benn Kilburn > wrote: > >> Wrenches, >> Have any of you noticed misaligned cell interconnections like the ones in >> the attached photo? >> I'm hesitant to use these and I already returned another module back to >> the distributer that had several cells with misaligned conductors as well, >> but just came across these in the order we just picked up. >> I'm waiting for a reply from he mfgr but in the meantime I'm wondering if >> any of you have seen this and should we be concerned with quality or safety >> (arcing?) in the short or long term? >> >> Thanks, >> Benn >> >> >> >> >> Benn Kilburn >> SkyFire Energy Inc. >> 780-906-7807 >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- William Hoffer 161 SE Fourth Ave P.O. Box 1823 White Salmon, WA 98672-1823 sunengser at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirk at vtsolar.com Mon Jun 29 10:57:57 2015 From: kirk at vtsolar.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 10:57:57 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solaredge Storedge Message-ID: <00c801d0b27b$fc5bf1b0$f513d510$@vtsolar.com> Hello, Anyone have detailed info on the Storedge battery-compatible system from Solaredge? I only found a brochure on their website. Apparently batteries can be added to a new or existing Solaredge inverter (the brochure says they have partnered with Tesla's Powerwall) for backup power. They call it "DC-coupling". Kirk Herander VT Solar, LLC Proven PV provider since 1991 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Mon Jun 29 13:03:06 2015 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 11:03:06 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack In-Reply-To: <559066C8.40207@solarray.com> References: <20130601003227.8A69B6B8227@homiemail-a52.g.dreamhost.com> <00e101ce5e75$b6c03f00$2440bd00$@1scom.net> <1370097670.35860.YahooMailNeo@web2803.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <9F9D749A-4DB6-4A49-9B56-A5021C5B30C6@aeonsolar.com> <1391622304.14269.YahooMailNeo@web2805.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <024f01d0af9c$505fa9b0$f11efd10$@solarwindworks.com> <559066C8.40207@solarray.com> Message-ID: <4DE275F1-FBC8-45DB-9181-9033D5C16F2B@skyfireenergy.com> Good points Ray. I always warn the crews of galling and to avoid spinning the SS hardware to fast. Another tip is to try to keep the SS hardware out of direct sun prior to using it. Kinetic tells me that their threaded hardware comes with a clear coat of anti-seize. Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 > On Jun 28, 2015, at 3:27 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > > Besides your note that cordless impact drivers can over torque the clamps, also they spin the bolts too fast which can lead to spalling of the SS hardware. > We now hand torque those connects. Finally, most torque specs are for lubricated bolts. We use anti-seize on the threads before torquing. > Using a cordless impact driver and no lube can cause not only module damage but also clamp damage, and end up with clamps not actually securing the modules, because the bolts spalled out before fully clamping. > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 >> On 6/28/2015 3:06 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: >> Chris, >> It sounds (to me) that you are describing the bonding "tooth" dug through the aluminum frame and into the glass? or at least compressed the frame enough to break the glass? If that is the case then i'm betting that the clamp bolt was way over-torqued. >> >> You need to check the recommended tightening torque for the module and for the racking system you are using. For example, what we are using these days, Kinetic, the tightening torque for mid and end clamps is 12 ft-lb and here are some recommended clamping torques from some different module mfgrs.... >> Conergy 8 NM - 6 ft-lb >> Hanwha 5 NM - 3.7 ft-lb >> JA Solar 18-24 NM - 13-18 ft-lb >> These likely vary based on the construction of the module frame. >> I've also found that some module mfgrs do not list recommended tightening torques in their install manuals, so best to use discretion. >> >> We had a module break after clamping it down. The crew described it as 'putting the module in place, clamping it down and turning around to grab the next module and hearing a 'crack' followed by the crackling glass sound (if you have ever heard a module break, the crackling sound can last for a few minutes). The break pattern in the glass seemed to focus on a particular mid clamp. I used a torque wrench, set at around 10 ft-lb and checked all the mid-clamp bolts, increasing the torque setting by a few ft-lb each time until it finally turned a bolt instead of clicking. I found that most of the bolts were close to 30 ft-lb and the one that appeared to break the glass was about 34 ft-lb. >> Suffice to say, we were getting carried away with tightening using cordless impact drivers. >> At that point i and the rest of the crew started using the torque wrench as we were going along until we had a better feel for what was the proper torque. (i've done this before, but it is something that needs to be self "re-calibrated" often. >> >> >> Benn Kilburn >> CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc >> 6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7 >> P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jun 25, 2015 at 5:11 PM, Chris Worcester wrote: >>> Hi Jason, >>> >>> Have you or others been using the new UniRac SM mid and end clamps with the integrated bonding yet? My concern is the “Stainless steel Midclamp points, 2 per module, pierce module frame anodization to bond module to module through clamp.” >>> >>> We had an MSI Alpha + self-bonding midclamp shatter the glass on an LG 280 last fall, as the factory set point was sticking out too far, so as it was being tightened down, on top of the module the point dug through the module’s top frame hitting the glass, shattering it. >>> >>> I do wonder if there are any issues with this “point” on the UniRac midclamps potential for doing the same damage? >>> >>> >>> >>> Chris Worcester >>> >>> Solar Wind Works >>> >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installer >>> >>> Office 530-582-4503 >>> >>> Cell 530-448-9692 >>> >>> Fax 530-582-4603 >>> >>> www.solarwindworks.com >>> >>> chris at solarwindworks.com >>> >>> >>> >>> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski >>> Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2015 1:13 PM >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack >>> >>> >>> >>> That decision was based on our distribution network offering better pricing on Unirac, and engineers being comfortable with it. Now with the integrated grounding from Unirac, I can't see moving away from it again barring a significant cost benefit. It also stacks and stocks easier than the Ironridge rails. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 5:55 PM, Dana Brandt wrote: >>> >>> Hi Jason, >>> >>> We've used Unirac for years but have been contemplating Ironridge. I'm curious what your experience was and why you went back to Unirac? >>> >>> Anyone else have input on best racking systems for flush-mounted residential systems on comp roof? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> >>> Dana >>> >>> Dana Brandt >>> Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC >>> www.ecotechenergy.com >>> dana at ecotechenergy.com >>> 360.318.7646 >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:09 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>> >>> By Snap N Rack, you mean Sun Run... >>> >>> >>> >>> http://cleantechnica.com/2014/02/05/sunrun-acquires-rec-solars-residential-business-aee-solar-snapnrack-means/ >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm curious if these vertical integrators will still make their acquired brands available to small dealers through distribution. When SolarCity snatched up Zep, I had concerns about being able to service or add onto existing Zep systems we installed. That's definitely a concern going forward, and reason to perhaps stick with the most compatible racking solutions available. We used IronRidge for a while, which is largely compatible with Unirac, but now we're back on the Unirac bandwagon. >>> >>> >>> >>> Interesting times... >>> >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> ​Fafco Solar​ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Max Balchowsky wrote: >>> >>> We have been using Snap N' Rack for a while, Have lots of installs in Hawaii - so far no problems, I like the convenience of the design for snapping in the slider nut in mid rail, and also the ability to install the panels flush with the end of the rails…. >>> >>> >>> >>> Max Balchowsky >>> Design Engineer >>> SEE Systems >>> 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 >>> Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 >>> 760-403-6810 >>> >>> "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" >>> >>> >>> >>> From: Allen Frishman >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> Sent: Wednesday, February 5, 2014 6:17 AM >>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack >>> >>> >>> >>> I am curious about the mid clamps on the snapnrack. The flange that rests on top of the solar panel frame is so small ~ 3/16". Anyone experience any problems with these failing in a big storm? With solar panel frames not being square it is nice to have a little extra to grab - I am always curious as to why these clips are made with such a small area to hold the panels down. >>> >>> >>> >>> All feedback on these clips is appreciated. >>> >>> Al Frishman >>> AeonSolar >>> >>> (917) 699-6641 - cell >>> (888) 460-2867 >>> www.aeonsolar.com >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jun 1, 2013, at 10:41 AM, Max Balchowsky wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Have installed last three systems (35Kw)with snap n rack. >>> >>> love it.... >>> >>> >>> >>> Max Balchowsky >>> Design Engineer >>> SEE Systems >>> 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 >>> Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 >>> 760-403-6810 >>> >>> "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" >>> >>> >>> >>> From: Solarguy >>> To: 'RE-wrenches' >>> Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 10:11 PM >>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack >>> >>> >>> >>> The only complaint with the Snapnrack rails is the thin wall can easily be distorted. This will allow the nut to drop out of its groove. Love the universal end clamps but have learned to assemble every one to check for proper fit before getting on the roof. >>> >>> Jim Duncan >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake >>> Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 7:32 PM >>> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack >>> >>> >>> >>> Hello Wrenches, >>> >>> >>> >>> How would you rate the SnapNrack mounting systems against Unirac and other mounting systems? >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> >>> >>> Drake >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >>> >>> >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> Change email address & settings: >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> >>> Check out participant bios: >>> >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Preferences >>> >>> § >>> >>> 1 >>> >>> 2 >>> >>> 3 >>> >>> 4 >>> >>> 5 >>> >>> 6 >>> >>> 7 >>> >>> 8 >>> >>> 9 >>> >>> 0 >>> >>> - >>> >>> = >>> >>> Backspace >>> >>> Tab >>> >>> q >>> >>> w >>> >>> e >>> >>> r >>> >>> t >>> >>> y >>> >>> u >>> >>> i >>> >>> o >>> >>> p >>> >>> [ >>> >>> ] >>> >>> Return >>> >>> capslock >>> >>> a >>> >>> s >>> >>> d >>> >>> f >>> >>> g >>> >>> h >>> >>> j >>> >>> k >>> >>> l >>> >>> ; >>> >>> ' >>> >>> \ >>> >>> shift >>> >>> ` >>> >>> z >>> >>> x >>> >>> c >>> >>> v >>> >>> b >>> >>> n >>> >>> m >>> >>> , >>> >>> . >>> >>> / >>> >>> shift >>> >>> English >>> >>> Deutsch >>> >>> Español >>> >>> Français >>> >>> Italiano >>> >>> Polski >>> >>> Português >>> >>> Русский >>> >>> alt >>> >>> alt >>> >>> Preferences >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kjenergysystems at gmail.com Mon Jun 29 13:05:15 2015 From: kjenergysystems at gmail.com (Kurt Johnsen) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 13:05:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack In-Reply-To: <559066C8.40207@solarray.com> References: <20130601003227.8A69B6B8227@homiemail-a52.g.dreamhost.com> <00e101ce5e75$b6c03f00$2440bd00$@1scom.net> <1370097670.35860.YahooMailNeo@web2803.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <9F9D749A-4DB6-4A49-9B56-A5021C5B30C6@aeonsolar.com> <1391622304.14269.YahooMailNeo@web2805.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <024f01d0af9c$505fa9b0$f11efd10$@solarwindworks.com> <559066C8.40207@solarray.com> Message-ID: Esteemed Wrenches, Does anyone know of a less tedious and messy way to lube the bolts than squeeze tube anti-seize? My 2 cents; I believe that the torque specs for an engineered assembly are put in there for a reason. Ignoring them puts the installer on the hook for any failures. Aside from being the right thing to do, using torque wrenches helps avoid assuming unnecessary financial risk which my thin margins cannot afford. Kurt Johnsen On Sun, Jun 28, 2015 at 5:27 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > Besides your note that cordless impact drivers can over torque the > clamps, also they spin the bolts too fast which can lead to spalling of the > SS hardware. > We now hand torque those connects. Finally, most torque specs are for > lubricated bolts. We use anti-seize on the threads before torquing. > Using a cordless impact driver and no lube can cause not only module > damage but also clamp damage, and end up with clamps not actually securing > the modules, because the bolts spalled out before fully clamping. > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 > > On 6/28/2015 3:06 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > > Chris, > It sounds (to me) that you are describing the bonding "tooth" dug > through the aluminum frame and into the glass? or at least compressed the > frame enough to break the glass? If that is the case then i'm betting that > the clamp bolt was way over-torqued. > > You need to check the recommended tightening torque for the module and for > the racking system you are using. For example, what we are using these > days, Kinetic, the tightening torque for mid and end clamps is 12 ft-lb and > here are some recommended clamping torques from some different module > mfgrs.... > Conergy 8 NM - 6 ft-lb > Hanwha 5 NM - 3.7 ft-lb > JA Solar 18-24 NM - 13-18 ft-lb > These likely vary based on the construction of the module frame. > I've also found that some module mfgrs do not list recommended tightening > torques in their install manuals, so best to use discretion. > > We had a module break after clamping it down. The crew described it as > 'putting the module in place, clamping it down and turning around to grab > the next module and hearing a 'crack' followed by the crackling glass sound > (if you have ever heard a module break, the crackling sound can last for a > few minutes). The break pattern in the glass seemed to focus on a > particular mid clamp. I used a torque wrench, set at around 10 ft-lb and > checked all the mid-clamp bolts, increasing the torque setting by a few > ft-lb each time until it finally turned a bolt instead of clicking. I > found that most of the bolts were close to 30 ft-lb and the one that > appeared to break the glass was about 34 ft-lb. > Suffice to say, we were getting carried away with tightening using > cordless impact drivers. > At that point i and the rest of the crew started using the torque wrench > as we were going along until we had a better feel for what was the proper > torque. (i've done this before, but it is something that needs to be self > "re-calibrated" often. > > > *Benn Kilburn * > CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc > 6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7 > P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com > [image: email] [image: facebook] > [image: twitter] > [image: linkedin] > > [image: google] > > [image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal] > > On Thu, Jun 25, 2015 at 5:11 PM, Chris Worcester > wrote: > >> Hi Jason, >> >> Have you or others been using the new UniRac SM mid and end clamps with >> the integrated bonding yet? My concern is the “Stainless steel Midclamp >> points, 2 per module, pierce module frame anodization to bond module to >> module through clamp.” >> >> We had an MSI Alpha + self-bonding midclamp shatter the glass on an LG >> 280 last fall, as the factory set point was sticking out too far, so as it >> was being tightened down, on top of the module the point dug through the >> module’s top frame hitting the glass, shattering it. >> >> I do wonder if there are any issues with this “point” on the UniRac >> midclamps potential for doing the same damage? >> >> >> >> Chris Worcester >> >> Solar Wind Works >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installer >> >> Office 530-582-4503 >> >> Cell 530-448-9692 >> >> Fax 530-582-4603 >> >> www.solarwindworks.com >> >> chris at solarwindworks.com >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski >> *Sent:* Thursday, June 25, 2015 1:13 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack >> >> >> >> That decision was based on our distribution network offering better >> pricing on Unirac, and engineers being comfortable with it. Now with the >> integrated grounding from Unirac, I can't see moving away from it again >> barring a significant cost benefit. It also stacks and stocks easier than >> the Ironridge rails. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 5:55 PM, Dana Brandt >> wrote: >> >> Hi Jason, >> >> We've used Unirac for years but have been contemplating Ironridge. I'm >> curious what your experience was and why you went back to Unirac? >> >> Anyone else have input on best racking systems for flush-mounted >> residential systems on comp roof? >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> Dana >> >> Dana Brandt >> Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC >> www.ecotechenergy.com >> dana at ecotechenergy.com >> 360.318.7646 >> >> >> >> On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:09 PM, Jason Szumlanski >> wrote: >> >> By Snap N Rack, you mean Sun Run... >> >> >> >> >> http://cleantechnica.com/2014/02/05/sunrun-acquires-rec-solars-residential-business-aee-solar-snapnrack-means/ >> >> >> >> I'm curious if these vertical integrators will still make their acquired >> brands available to small dealers through distribution. When SolarCity >> snatched up Zep, I had concerns about being able to service or add onto >> existing Zep systems we installed. That's definitely a concern going >> forward, and reason to perhaps stick with the most compatible racking >> solutions available. We used IronRidge for a while, which is largely >> compatible with Unirac, but now we're back on the Unirac bandwagon. >> >> >> >> Interesting times... >> >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> ​Fafco Solar​ >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Max Balchowsky wrote: >> >> We have been using Snap N' Rack for a while, Have lots of installs in >> Hawaii - so far no problems, I like the convenience of the design for >> snapping in the slider nut in mid rail, and also the ability to install the >> panels flush with the end of the rails…. >> >> >> >> Max Balchowsky >> Design Engineer >> SEE Systems >> 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 >> Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 >> 760-403-6810 >> >> "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From:* Allen Frishman >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 5, 2014 6:17 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack >> >> >> >> I am curious about the mid clamps on the snapnrack. The flange that >> rests on top of the solar panel frame is so small ~ 3/16". Anyone >> experience any problems with these failing in a big storm? With solar >> panel frames not being square it is nice to have a little extra to grab - I >> am always curious as to why these clips are made with such a small area to >> hold the panels down. >> >> >> >> All feedback on these clips is appreciated. >> >> *Al Frishman* >> AeonSolar >> >> *(917) 699-6641 <%28917%29%20699-6641> - cell* >> *(888) 460-2867 <%28888%29%20460-2867>* >> *www.aeonsolar.com * >> >> >> >> On Jun 1, 2013, at 10:41 AM, Max Balchowsky wrote: >> >> >> >> Have installed last three systems (35Kw)with snap n rack. >> >> love it.... >> >> >> >> Max Balchowsky >> Design Engineer >> SEE Systems >> 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 >> Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 >> 760-403-6810 >> >> "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From:* Solarguy >> *To:* 'RE-wrenches' >> *Sent:* Friday, May 31, 2013 10:11 PM >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack >> >> >> >> The only complaint with the Snapnrack rails is the thin wall can easily >> be distorted. This will allow the nut to drop out of its groove. Love the >> universal end clamps but have learned to assemble every one to check for >> proper fit before getting on the roof. >> >> Jim Duncan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto: >> re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake >> Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 7:32 PM >> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack >> >> >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> >> >> How would you rate the SnapNrack mounting systems against Unirac and >> other mounting systems? >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> >> Drake >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >> >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> Change email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> >> Check out participant bios: >> >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Preferences >> >> § >> >> 1 >> >> 2 >> >> 3 >> >> 4 >> >> 5 >> >> 6 >> >> 7 >> >> 8 >> >> 9 >> >> 0 >> >> - >> >> = >> >> Backspace >> >> Tab >> >> q >> >> w >> >> e >> >> r >> >> t >> >> y >> >> u >> >> i >> >> o >> >> p >> >> [ >> >> ] >> >> Return >> >> capslock >> >> a >> >> s >> >> d >> >> f >> >> g >> >> h >> >> j >> >> k >> >> l >> >> ; >> >> ' >> >> \ >> >> shift >> >> ` >> >> z >> >> x >> >> c >> >> v >> >> b >> >> n >> >> m >> >> , >> >> . >> >> / >> >> shift >> >> English >> >> Deutsch >> >> Español >> >> Français >> >> Italiano >> >> Polski >> >> Português >> >> Русский >> >> alt >> >> alt >> >> Preferences >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Mon Jun 29 13:12:03 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 11:12:03 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack In-Reply-To: References: <20130601003227.8A69B6B8227@homiemail-a52.g.dreamhost.com> <00e101ce5e75$b6c03f00$2440bd00$@1scom.net> <1370097670.35860.YahooMailNeo@web2803.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <9F9D749A-4DB6-4A49-9B56-A5021C5B30C6@aeonsolar.com> <1391622304.14269.YahooMailNeo@web2805.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <024f01d0af9c$505fa9b0$f11efd10$@solarwindworks.com> <559066C8.40207@solarray.com> Message-ID: <55917C63.80709@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Jun 29 13:32:21 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 11:32:21 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack In-Reply-To: <55917C63.80709@sindelarsolar.com> References: <20130601003227.8A69B6B8227@homiemail-a52.g.dreamhost.com> <00e101ce5e75$b6c03f00$2440bd00$@1scom.net> <1370097670.35860.YahooMailNeo@web2803.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <9F9D749A-4DB6-4A49-9B56-A5021C5B30C6@aeonsolar.com> <1391622304.14269.YahooMailNeo@web2805.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <024f01d0af9c$505fa9b0$f11efd10$@solarwindworks.com> <559066C8.40207@solarray.com> <55917C63.80709@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <55918125.5000504@solarray.com> Anti seize also comes in larger cans with a brush, but it still can get messy. Also on the torque issue, I found just using the T handle hex wrench from the manufacturer (we use S Flex) gets the torque where it should be, and even a gorilla can't over torque it too far. Old fashioned, but we have less heavy tools to carry on the roof, and no over torque issues. With lubed threads, the T handle wrench can twirl, which is almost as fast as using a power tool. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 6/29/2015 11:12 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > Kurt, > Less messy, yes; less tedious, maybe: anti-seize also comes in a > semi-solid stick form, like a large lip balm tube with a cap and a > twist dial on the bottom to raise the level of the anti-seize as it's > used. One quick rub on the threads per bolt. Purchased through Fastenal. > Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > ** > > On 6/29/2015 11:05 AM, Kurt Johnsen wrote: >> Esteemed Wrenches, >> Does anyone know of a less tedious and messy way to lube the bolts >> than squeeze tube anti-seize? >> >> My 2 cents; I believe that the torque specs for an engineered >> assembly are put in there for a reason. Ignoring them puts the >> installer on the hook for any failures. Aside from being the right >> thing to do, using torque wrenches helps avoid assuming unnecessary >> financial risk which my thin margins cannot afford. >> >> Kurt Johnsen >> >> On Sun, Jun 28, 2015 at 5:27 PM, Ray Walters > > wrote: >> >> Besides your note that cordless impact drivers can over torque >> the clamps, also they spin the bolts too fast which can lead to >> spalling of the SS hardware. >> We now hand torque those connects. Finally, most torque specs >> are for lubricated bolts. We use anti-seize on the threads >> before torquing. >> Using a cordless impact driver and no lube can cause not only >> module damage but also clamp damage, and end up with clamps not >> actually securing the modules, because the bolts spalled out >> before fully clamping. >> >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 6/28/2015 3:06 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: >>> Chris, >>> It sounds (to me) that you are describing the bonding "tooth" >>> dug through the aluminum frame and into the glass? or at least >>> compressed the frame enough to break the glass? If that is the >>> case then i'm betting that the clamp bolt was way over-torqued. >>> >>> You need to check the recommended tightening torque for the >>> module and for the racking system you are using. For example, >>> what we are using these days, Kinetic, the tightening torque for >>> mid and end clamps is 12 ft-lb and here are some recommended >>> clamping torques from some different module mfgrs.... >>> Conergy 8 NM - 6 ft-lb >>> Hanwha 5 NM - 3.7 ft-lb >>> JA Solar 18-24 NM - 13-18 ft-lb >>> These likely vary based on the construction of the module frame. >>> I've also found that some module mfgrs do not list recommended >>> tightening torques in their install manuals, so best to use >>> discretion. >>> >>> We had a module break after clamping it down. The crew described >>> it as 'putting the module in place, clamping it down and turning >>> around to grab the next module and hearing a 'crack' followed by >>> the crackling glass sound (if you have ever heard a module >>> break, the crackling sound can last for a few minutes). The >>> break pattern in the glass seemed to focus on a particular mid >>> clamp. I used a torque wrench, set at around 10 ft-lb and >>> checked all the mid-clamp bolts, increasing the torque setting >>> by a few ft-lb each time until it finally turned a bolt instead >>> of clicking. I found that most of the bolts were close to 30 >>> ft-lb and the one that appeared to break the glass was about 34 >>> ft-lb. >>> Suffice to say, we were getting carried away with tightening >>> using cordless impact drivers. >>> At that point i and the rest of the crew started using the >>> torque wrench as we were going along until we had a better feel >>> for what was the proper torque. (i've done this before, but it >>> is something that needs to be self "re-calibrated" often. >>> >>> >>> *Benn Kilburn * >>> CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire >>> Energy Inc >>> 6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7 >>> P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 >>> | www.skyfireenergy.com >>> >>> email facebook >>> twitter >>> linkedin >>> >>> google >>> >>> SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jun 25, 2015 at 5:11 PM, Chris Worcester >>> > wrote: >>> >>> Hi Jason, >>> >>> Have you or others been using the new UniRac SM mid and end >>> clamps with the integrated bonding yet? My concern is the >>> “Stainless steel Midclamp points, 2 per module, pierce >>> module frame anodization to bond module to module through >>> clamp.” >>> >>> We had an MSI Alpha + self-bonding midclamp shatter the >>> glass on an LG 280 last fall, as the factory set point was >>> sticking out too far, so as it was being tightened down, on >>> top of the module the point dug through the module’s top >>> frame hitting the glass, shattering it. >>> >>> I do wonder if there are any issues with this “point” on the >>> UniRac midclamps potential for doing the same damage? >>> >>> Chris Worcester >>> >>> Solar Wind Works >>> >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installer >>> >>> Office 530-582-4503 >>> >>> Cell 530-448-9692 >>> >>> Fax 530-582-4603 >>> >>> www.solarwindworks.com >>> >>> chris at solarwindworks.com >>> >>> *From:*RE-wrenches >>> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> ] *On >>> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski >>> *Sent:* Thursday, June 25, 2015 1:13 PM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack >>> >>> That decision was based on our distribution network offering >>> better pricing on Unirac, and engineers being comfortable >>> with it. Now with the integrated grounding from Unirac, I >>> can't see moving away from it again barring a significant >>> cost benefit. It also stacks and stocks easier than the >>> Ironridge rails. >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 5:55 PM, Dana Brandt >>> > wrote: >>> >>> Hi Jason, >>> >>> We've used Unirac for years but have been contemplating >>> Ironridge. I'm curious what your experience was and why you >>> went back to Unirac? >>> >>> Anyone else have input on best racking systems for >>> flush-mounted residential systems on comp roof? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> >>> Dana >>> >>> Dana Brandt >>> Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC >>> www.ecotechenergy.com >>> dana at ecotechenergy.com >>> 360.318.7646 >>> >>> On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:09 PM, Jason Szumlanski >>> > wrote: >>> >>> By Snap N Rack, you mean Sun Run... >>> >>> http://cleantechnica.com/2014/02/05/sunrun-acquires-rec-solars-residential-business-aee-solar-snapnrack-means/ >>> >>> I'm curious if these vertical integrators will still make >>> their acquired brands available to small dealers through >>> distribution. When SolarCity snatched up Zep, I had concerns >>> about being able to service or add onto existing Zep systems >>> we installed. That's definitely a concern going forward, and >>> reason to perhaps stick with the most compatible racking >>> solutions available. We used IronRidge for a while, which is >>> largely compatible with Unirac, but now we're back on the >>> Unirac bandwagon. >>> >>> Interesting times... >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> >>> ​Fafco Solar​ >>> >>> On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Max Balchowsky >>> > wrote: >>> >>> We have been using Snap N' Rack for a while, Have lots of >>> installs in Hawaii - so far no problems, I like the >>> convenience of the design for snapping in the slider nut in >>> mid rail, and also the ability to install the panels flush >>> with the end of the rails…. >>> >>> Max Balchowsky >>> Design Engineer >>> SEE Systems >>> 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 >>> Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 >>> 760-403-6810 >>> >>> "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> *From:*Allen Frishman >> > >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >> > >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 5, 2014 6:17 AM >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack >>> >>> I am curious about the mid clamps on the snapnrack. The >>> flange that rests on top of the solar panel frame is so >>> small ~ 3/16". Anyone experience any problems with these >>> failing in a big storm? With solar panel frames not being >>> square it is nice to have a little extra to grab - I am >>> always curious as to why these clips are made with such a >>> small area to hold the panels down. >>> >>> All feedback on these clips is appreciated. >>> >>> /Al Frishman/ >>> AeonSolar >>> >>> /(917) 699-6641 - cell/ >>> /(888) 460-2867 / >>> /www.aeonsolar.com / >>> >>> On Jun 1, 2013, at 10:41 AM, Max Balchowsky wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Have installed last three systems (35Kw)with snap n rack. >>> >>> love it.... >>> >>> Max Balchowsky >>> Design Engineer >>> SEE Systems >>> 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 >>> Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 >>> 760-403-6810 >>> >>> "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> *From:*Solarguy > >>> *To:* 'RE-wrenches' >> > >>> *Sent:* Friday, May 31, 2013 10:11 PM >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack >>> >>> The only complaint with the Snapnrack rails is the thin wall >>> can easily be distorted. This will allow the nut to drop out >>> of its groove. Love the universal end clamps but have >>> learned to assemble every one to check for proper fit before >>> getting on the roof. >>> >>> Jim Duncan >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> ] On >>> Behalf Of Drake >>> Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 7:32 PM >>> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack >>> >>> Hello Wrenches, >>> >>> How would you rate the SnapNrack mounting systems against >>> Unirac and other mounting systems? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Drake >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change email address & settings: >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out participant bios: >>> >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> Preferences >>> >>> § >>> >>> 1 >>> >>> 2 >>> >>> 3 >>> >>> 4 >>> >>> 5 >>> >>> 6 >>> >>> 7 >>> >>> 8 >>> >>> 9 >>> >>> 0 >>> >>> - >>> >>> = >>> >>> Backspace >>> >>> Tab >>> >>> q >>> >>> w >>> >>> e >>> >>> r >>> >>> t >>> >>> y >>> >>> u >>> >>> i >>> >>> o >>> >>> p >>> >>> [ >>> >>> ] >>> >>> Return >>> >>> capslock >>> >>> a >>> >>> s >>> >>> d >>> >>> f >>> >>> g >>> >>> h >>> >>> j >>> >>> k >>> >>> l >>> >>> ; >>> >>> ' >>> >>> \ >>> >>> shift >>> >>> ` >>> >>> z >>> >>> x >>> >>> c >>> >>> v >>> >>> b >>> >>> n >>> >>> m >>> >>> , >>> >>> . >>> >>> / >>> >>> shift >>> >>> English >>> >>> Deutsch >>> >>> Español >>> >>> Français >>> >>> Italiano >>> >>> Polski >>> >>> Português >>> >>> Русский >>> >>> alt >>> >>> alt >>> >>> Preferences >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update 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rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From windsine at gmail.com Mon Jun 29 13:37:48 2015 From: windsine at gmail.com (Roy Rakobitsch) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 12:37:48 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack In-Reply-To: <55918125.5000504@solarray.com> References: <20130601003227.8A69B6B8227@homiemail-a52.g.dreamhost.com> <00e101ce5e75$b6c03f00$2440bd00$@1scom.net> <1370097670.35860.YahooMailNeo@web2803.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <9F9D749A-4DB6-4A49-9B56-A5021C5B30C6@aeonsolar.com> <1391622304.14269.YahooMailNeo@web2805.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <024f01d0af9c$505fa9b0$f11efd10$@solarwindworks.com> <559066C8.40207@solarray.com> <55917C63.80709@sindelarsolar.com> <55918125.5000504@solarray.com> Message-ID: Loctite makes anti seize in aerosol cans. Not necessarily less messy but certainly less tedious if all bolts are prepped on the ground and carried up in a bucket for assembly. Roy Rakobitsch NABCEP Certified Small Wind Installer® NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® Certified Advanced Tower Climbing, Safety & Rescue Wind/PV Design Engineer Windsine LLC 631-514-4166 www.windsine.org On Jun 29, 2015 12:32 PM, "Ray Walters" wrote: > Anti seize also comes in larger cans with a brush, but it still can get > messy. > Also on the torque issue, I found just using the T handle hex wrench from > the manufacturer (we use S Flex) gets the torque where it should be, and > even a gorilla can't over torque it too far. > Old fashioned, but we have less heavy tools to carry on the roof, and no > over torque issues. With lubed threads, the T handle wrench can twirl, > which is almost as fast as using a power tool. > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 > > On 6/29/2015 11:12 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > > Kurt, > Less messy, yes; less tedious, maybe: anti-seize also comes in a > semi-solid stick form, like a large lip balm tube with a cap and a twist > dial on the bottom to raise the level of the anti-seize as it's used. One > quick rub on the threads per bolt. Purchased through Fastenal. > Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* > > > On 6/29/2015 11:05 AM, Kurt Johnsen wrote: > > Esteemed Wrenches, > Does anyone know of a less tedious and messy way to lube the bolts than > squeeze tube anti-seize? > > My 2 cents; I believe that the torque specs for an engineered assembly are > put in there for a reason. Ignoring them puts the installer on the hook for > any failures. Aside from being the right thing to do, using torque wrenches > helps avoid assuming unnecessary financial risk which my thin margins > cannot afford. > > Kurt Johnsen > > On Sun, Jun 28, 2015 at 5:27 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > >> Besides your note that cordless impact drivers can over torque the >> clamps, also they spin the bolts too fast which can lead to spalling of the >> SS hardware. >> We now hand torque those connects. Finally, most torque specs are for >> lubricated bolts. We use anti-seize on the threads before torquing. >> Using a cordless impact driver and no lube can cause not only module >> damage but also clamp damage, and end up with clamps not actually securing >> the modules, because the bolts spalled out before fully clamping. >> >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 >> >> On 6/28/2015 3:06 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: >> >> Chris, >> It sounds (to me) that you are describing the bonding "tooth" dug >> through the aluminum frame and into the glass? or at least compressed the >> frame enough to break the glass? If that is the case then i'm betting that >> the clamp bolt was way over-torqued. >> >> You need to check the recommended tightening torque for the module and >> for the racking system you are using. For example, what we are using these >> days, Kinetic, the tightening torque for mid and end clamps is 12 ft-lb and >> here are some recommended clamping torques from some different module >> mfgrs.... >> Conergy 8 NM - 6 ft-lb >> Hanwha 5 NM - 3.7 ft-lb >> JA Solar 18-24 NM - 13-18 ft-lb >> These likely vary based on the construction of the module frame. >> I've also found that some module mfgrs do not list recommended tightening >> torques in their install manuals, so best to use discretion. >> >> We had a module break after clamping it down. The crew described it as >> 'putting the module in place, clamping it down and turning around to grab >> the next module and hearing a 'crack' followed by the crackling glass sound >> (if you have ever heard a module break, the crackling sound can last for a >> few minutes). The break pattern in the glass seemed to focus on a >> particular mid clamp. I used a torque wrench, set at around 10 ft-lb and >> checked all the mid-clamp bolts, increasing the torque setting by a few >> ft-lb each time until it finally turned a bolt instead of clicking. I >> found that most of the bolts were close to 30 ft-lb and the one that >> appeared to break the glass was about 34 ft-lb. >> Suffice to say, we were getting carried away with tightening using >> cordless impact drivers. >> At that point i and the rest of the crew started using the torque >> wrench as we were going along until we had a better feel for what was the >> proper torque. (i've done this before, but it is something that needs to >> be self "re-calibrated" often. >> >> >> *Benn Kilburn * >> CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc >> 6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7 >> P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com >> [image: email] [image: facebook] >> [image: twitter] >> [image: linkedin] >> >> [image: google] >> >> [image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal] >> >> On Thu, Jun 25, 2015 at 5:11 PM, Chris Worcester < >> chris at solarwindworks.com> wrote: >> >>> Hi Jason, >>> >>> Have you or others been using the new UniRac SM mid and end clamps with >>> the integrated bonding yet? My concern is the “Stainless steel Midclamp >>> points, 2 per module, pierce module frame anodization to bond module to >>> module through clamp.” >>> >>> We had an MSI Alpha + self-bonding midclamp shatter the glass on an LG >>> 280 last fall, as the factory set point was sticking out too far, so as it >>> was being tightened down, on top of the module the point dug through the >>> module’s top frame hitting the glass, shattering it. >>> >>> I do wonder if there are any issues with this “point” on the UniRac >>> midclamps potential for doing the same damage? >>> >>> >>> >>> Chris Worcester >>> >>> Solar Wind Works >>> >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installer >>> >>> Office 530-582-4503 >>> >>> Cell 530-448-9692 >>> >>> Fax 530-582-4603 >>> >>> www.solarwindworks.com >>> >>> chris at solarwindworks.com >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >>> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski >>> *Sent:* Thursday, June 25, 2015 1:13 PM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack >>> >>> >>> >>> That decision was based on our distribution network offering better >>> pricing on Unirac, and engineers being comfortable with it. Now with the >>> integrated grounding from Unirac, I can't see moving away from it again >>> barring a significant cost benefit. It also stacks and stocks easier than >>> the Ironridge rails. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 5:55 PM, Dana Brandt >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Jason, >>> >>> We've used Unirac for years but have been contemplating Ironridge. I'm >>> curious what your experience was and why you went back to Unirac? >>> >>> Anyone else have input on best racking systems for flush-mounted >>> residential systems on comp roof? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> >>> Dana >>> >>> Dana Brandt >>> Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC >>> www.ecotechenergy.com >>> dana at ecotechenergy.com >>> 360.318.7646 >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:09 PM, Jason Szumlanski >>> wrote: >>> >>> By Snap N Rack, you mean Sun Run... >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> http://cleantechnica.com/2014/02/05/sunrun-acquires-rec-solars-residential-business-aee-solar-snapnrack-means/ >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm curious if these vertical integrators will still make their acquired >>> brands available to small dealers through distribution. When SolarCity >>> snatched up Zep, I had concerns about being able to service or add onto >>> existing Zep systems we installed. That's definitely a concern going >>> forward, and reason to perhaps stick with the most compatible racking >>> solutions available. We used IronRidge for a while, which is largely >>> compatible with Unirac, but now we're back on the Unirac bandwagon. >>> >>> >>> >>> Interesting times... >>> >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> >>> ​Fafco Solar​ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Max Balchowsky >>> wrote: >>> >>> We have been using Snap N' Rack for a while, Have lots of installs in >>> Hawaii - so far no problems, I like the convenience of the design for >>> snapping in the slider nut in mid rail, and also the ability to install the >>> panels flush with the end of the rails…. >>> >>> >>> >>> Max Balchowsky >>> Design Engineer >>> SEE Systems >>> 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 >>> Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 >>> 760-403-6810 >>> >>> "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> *From:* Allen Frishman >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 5, 2014 6:17 AM >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack >>> >>> >>> >>> I am curious about the mid clamps on the snapnrack. The flange that >>> rests on top of the solar panel frame is so small ~ 3/16". Anyone >>> experience any problems with these failing in a big storm? With solar >>> panel frames not being square it is nice to have a little extra to grab - I >>> am always curious as to why these clips are made with such a small area to >>> hold the panels down. >>> >>> >>> >>> All feedback on these clips is appreciated. >>> >>> *Al Frishman* >>> AeonSolar >>> >>> *(917) 699-6641 <%28917%29%20699-6641> - cell* >>> *(888) 460-2867 <%28888%29%20460-2867>* >>> *www.aeonsolar.com * >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jun 1, 2013, at 10:41 AM, Max Balchowsky wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Have installed last three systems (35Kw)with snap n rack. >>> >>> love it.... >>> >>> >>> >>> Max Balchowsky >>> Design Engineer >>> SEE Systems >>> 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 >>> Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 >>> 760-403-6810 >>> >>> "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> *From:* Solarguy >>> *To:* 'RE-wrenches' >>> *Sent:* Friday, May 31, 2013 10:11 PM >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack >>> >>> >>> >>> The only complaint with the Snapnrack rails is the thin wall can easily >>> be distorted. This will allow the nut to drop out of its groove. Love the >>> universal end clamps but have learned to assemble every one to check for >>> proper fit before getting on the roof. >>> >>> Jim Duncan >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto: >>> re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake >>> Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 7:32 PM >>> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack >>> >>> >>> >>> Hello Wrenches, >>> >>> >>> >>> How would you rate the SnapNrack mounting systems against Unirac and >>> other mounting systems? >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> >>> >>> Drake >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >>> >>> >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> Change email address & settings: >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> >>> Check out participant bios: >>> >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Preferences >>> >>> § >>> >>> 1 >>> >>> 2 >>> >>> 3 >>> >>> 4 >>> >>> 5 >>> >>> 6 >>> >>> 7 >>> >>> 8 >>> >>> 9 >>> >>> 0 >>> >>> - >>> >>> = >>> >>> Backspace >>> >>> Tab >>> >>> q >>> >>> w >>> >>> e >>> >>> r >>> >>> t >>> >>> y >>> >>> u >>> >>> i >>> >>> o >>> >>> p >>> >>> [ >>> >>> ] >>> >>> Return >>> >>> capslock >>> >>> a >>> >>> s >>> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > ... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rebekah.hren at gmail.com Mon Jun 29 14:06:45 2015 From: rebekah.hren at gmail.com (Rebekah Hren) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 12:06:45 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solaredge Storedge In-Reply-To: <00c801d0b27b$fc5bf1b0$f513d510$@vtsolar.com> References: <00c801d0b27b$fc5bf1b0$f513d510$@vtsolar.com> Message-ID: I don't have any info, but the StorEdge diagram is confusing to me when it says "energy independence." I can see a simple compatibility between the Powerwall DC voltage (300 to 400VDC) and the SolarEdge operating voltage, ~350VDC, and I can also see how this setup could be used to maximize self-consumption (a grid-zero type system). What is confusing is the AC output of the inverter - it is not diagrammed as a multimode system, which is what "energy independence" would indicate to me. The brochure is not showing an AC loads panel that can be isolated from the grid, or any kind of separate transfer switch - which would be necessary for a multimode system. I would be curious to hear what the technical requirements will be to install the system as a multimode system, if that is indeed a possibility - which it may not be. Rebekah On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 8:57 AM, Kirk Herander wrote: > Hello, > > Anyone have detailed info on the Storedge battery-compatible system from > Solaredge? I only found a brochure on their website. Apparently batteries > can be added to a new or existing Solaredge inverter (the brochure says > they have partnered with Tesla’s Powerwall) for backup power. They call it > “DC-coupling”. > > > > *Kirk Herander* > > *VT Solar, LLC * > > *Proven PV provider since 1991* > > *www.vermontsolarnow.com * > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > 802.863.1202 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Tel: 336.266.8800 NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 NC Licensed Electrical Contractor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Jun 29 14:35:15 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 12:35:15 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack In-Reply-To: References: <20130601003227.8A69B6B8227@homiemail-a52.g.dreamhost.com> <00e101ce5e75$b6c03f00$2440bd00$@1scom.net> <1370097670.35860.YahooMailNeo@web2803.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <9F9D749A-4DB6-4A49-9B56-A5021C5B30C6@aeonsolar.com> <1391622304.14269.YahooMailNeo@web2805.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <024f01d0af9c$505fa9b0$f11efd10$@solarwindworks.com> <559066C8.40207@solarray.com> <55917C63.80709@sindelarsolar.com> <55918125.5000504@solarray.com> Message-ID: <55918FE3.8080400@solarray.com> We also found that a Q-tip works great for applying the anti seize to the threads without having to disassemble the clamp. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 6/29/2015 11:37 AM, Roy Rakobitsch wrote: > > Loctite makes anti seize in aerosol cans. Not necessarily less messy > but certainly less tedious if all bolts are prepped on the ground and > carried up in a bucket for assembly. > > Roy Rakobitsch > NABCEP Certified Small Wind Installer® > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® > Certified Advanced Tower Climbing, Safety & Rescue > Wind/PV Design Engineer > Windsine LLC > 631-514-4166 > www.windsine.org > > On Jun 29, 2015 12:32 PM, "Ray Walters" > wrote: > > Anti seize also comes in larger cans with a brush, but it still > can get messy. > Also on the torque issue, I found just using the T handle hex > wrench from the manufacturer (we use S Flex) gets the torque where > it should be, and even a gorilla can't over torque it too far. > Old fashioned, but we have less heavy tools to carry on the roof, > and no over torque issues. With lubed threads, the T handle > wrench can twirl, which is almost as fast as using a power tool. > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > On 6/29/2015 11:12 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: >> Kurt, >> Less messy, yes; less tedious, maybe: anti-seize also comes in a >> semi-solid stick form, like a large lip balm tube with a cap and >> a twist dial on the bottom to raise the level of the anti-seize >> as it's used. One quick rub on the threads per bolt. Purchased >> through Fastenal. >> Allan >> >> *Allan Sindelar* >> allan at sindelarsolar.com >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional >> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >> *505 780-2738 cell* >> >> On 6/29/2015 11:05 AM, Kurt Johnsen wrote: >>> Esteemed Wrenches, >>> Does anyone know of a less tedious and messy way to lube the >>> bolts than squeeze tube anti-seize? >>> >>> My 2 cents; I believe that the torque specs for an engineered >>> assembly are put in there for a reason. Ignoring them puts the >>> installer on the hook for any failures. Aside from being the >>> right thing to do, using torque wrenches helps avoid assuming >>> unnecessary financial risk which my thin margins cannot afford. >>> >>> Kurt Johnsen >>> >>> On Sun, Jun 28, 2015 at 5:27 PM, Ray Walters >> > wrote: >>> >>> Besides your note that cordless impact drivers can over >>> torque the clamps, also they spin the bolts too fast which >>> can lead to spalling of the SS hardware. >>> We now hand torque those connects. Finally, most torque >>> specs are for lubricated bolts. We use anti-seize on the >>> threads before torquing. >>> Using a cordless impact driver and no lube can cause not >>> only module damage but also clamp damage, and end up with >>> clamps not actually securing the modules, because the bolts >>> spalled out before fully clamping. >>> >>> R.Ray Walters >>> CTO, Solarray, Inc >>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >>> Licensed Master Electrician >>> Solar Design Engineer >>> 303 505-8760 >>> >>> On 6/28/2015 3:06 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: >>>> Chris, >>>> It sounds (to me) that you are describing the bonding >>>> "tooth" dug through the aluminum frame and into the glass? >>>> or at least compressed the frame enough to break the glass? >>>> If that is the case then i'm betting that the clamp bolt >>>> was way over-torqued. >>>> >>>> You need to check the recommended tightening torque for the >>>> module and for the racking system you are using. For >>>> example, what we are using these days, Kinetic, the >>>> tightening torque for mid and end clamps is 12 ft-lb and >>>> here are some recommended clamping torques from some >>>> different module mfgrs.... >>>> Conergy 8 NM - 6 ft-lb >>>> Hanwha 5 NM - 3.7 ft-lb >>>> JA Solar 18-24 NM - 13-18 ft-lb >>>> These likely vary based on the construction of the module >>>> frame. >>>> I've also found that some module mfgrs do not list >>>> recommended tightening torques in their install manuals, so >>>> best to use discretion. >>>> >>>> We had a module break after clamping it down. The crew >>>> described it as 'putting the module in place, clamping it >>>> down and turning around to grab the next module and hearing >>>> a 'crack' followed by the crackling glass sound (if you >>>> have ever heard a module break, the crackling sound can >>>> last for a few minutes). The break pattern in the glass >>>> seemed to focus on a particular mid clamp. I used a torque >>>> wrench, set at around 10 ft-lb and checked all the >>>> mid-clamp bolts, increasing the torque setting by a few >>>> ft-lb each time until it finally turned a bolt instead of >>>> clicking. I found that most of the bolts were close to 30 >>>> ft-lb and the one that appeared to break the glass was >>>> about 34 ft-lb. >>>> Suffice to say, we were getting carried away with >>>> tightening using cordless impact drivers. >>>> At that point i and the rest of the crew started using the >>>> torque wrench as we were going along until we had a better >>>> feel for what was the proper torque. (i've done this >>>> before, but it is something that needs to be self >>>> "re-calibrated" often. >>>> >>>> >>>> *Benn Kilburn * >>>> CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, >>>> SkyFire Energy Inc >>>> 6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7 >>>> P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 >>>> | www.skyfireenergy.com >>>> >>>> email facebook >>>> twitter >>>> linkedin >>>> >>>> google >>>> >>>> SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jun 25, 2015 at 5:11 PM, Chris Worcester >>>> >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Jason, >>>> >>>> Have you or others been using the new UniRac SM mid and >>>> end clamps with the integrated bonding yet? My concern >>>> is the “Stainless steel Midclamp points, 2 per module, >>>> pierce module frame anodization to bond module to >>>> module through clamp.” >>>> >>>> We had an MSI Alpha + self-bonding midclamp shatter the >>>> glass on an LG 280 last fall, as the factory set point >>>> was sticking out too far, so as it was being tightened >>>> down, on top of the module the point dug through the >>>> module’s top frame hitting the glass, shattering it. >>>> >>>> I do wonder if there are any issues with this “point” >>>> on the UniRac midclamps potential for doing the same >>>> damage? >>>> >>>> Chris Worcester >>>> >>>> Solar Wind Works >>>> >>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installer >>>> >>>> Office 530-582-4503 >>>> >>>> Cell 530-448-9692 >>>> >>>> Fax 530-582-4603 >>>> >>>> www.solarwindworks.com >>>> >>>> chris at solarwindworks.com >>>> >>>> *From:*RE-wrenches >>>> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> ] *On >>>> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, June 25, 2015 1:13 PM >>>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack >>>> >>>> That decision was based on our distribution network >>>> offering better pricing on Unirac, and engineers being >>>> comfortable with it. Now with the integrated grounding >>>> from Unirac, I can't see moving away from it again >>>> barring a significant cost benefit. It also stacks and >>>> stocks easier than the Ironridge rails. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 5:55 PM, Dana Brandt >>>> >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Jason, >>>> >>>> We've used Unirac for years but have been contemplating >>>> Ironridge. I'm curious what your experience was and why >>>> you went back to Unirac? >>>> >>>> Anyone else have input on best racking systems for >>>> flush-mounted residential systems on comp roof? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> >>>> Dana >>>> >>>> Dana Brandt >>>> Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC >>>> www.ecotechenergy.com >>>> dana at ecotechenergy.com >>>> 360.318.7646 >>>> >>>> On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:09 PM, Jason Szumlanski >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> By Snap N Rack, you mean Sun Run... >>>> >>>> http://cleantechnica.com/2014/02/05/sunrun-acquires-rec-solars-residential-business-aee-solar-snapnrack-means/ >>>> >>>> I'm curious if these vertical integrators will still >>>> make their acquired brands available to small dealers >>>> through distribution. When SolarCity snatched up Zep, I >>>> had concerns about being able to service or add onto >>>> existing Zep systems we installed. That's definitely a >>>> concern going forward, and reason to perhaps stick with >>>> the most compatible racking solutions available. We >>>> used IronRidge for a while, which is largely compatible >>>> with Unirac, but now we're back on the Unirac bandwagon. >>>> >>>> Interesting times... >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> >>>> ​Fafco Solar​ >>>> >>>> On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Max Balchowsky >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> We have been using Snap N' Rack for a while, Have lots >>>> of installs in Hawaii - so far no problems, I like the >>>> convenience of the design for snapping in the slider >>>> nut in mid rail, and also the ability to install the >>>> panels flush with the end of the rails…. >>>> >>>> Max Balchowsky >>>> Design Engineer >>>> SEE Systems >>>> 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 >>>> Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 >>>> 760-403-6810 >>>> >>>> "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> *From:*Allen Frishman >>> > >>>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> > >>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 5, 2014 6:17 AM >>>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack >>>> >>>> I am curious about the mid clamps on the snapnrack. The >>>> flange that rests on top of the solar panel frame is so >>>> small ~ 3/16". Anyone experience any problems with >>>> these failing in a big storm? With solar panel >>>> frames not being square it is nice to have a little >>>> extra to grab - I am always curious as to why these >>>> clips are made with such a small area to hold the >>>> panels down. >>>> >>>> All feedback on these clips is appreciated. >>>> >>>> /Al Frishman/ >>>> AeonSolar >>>> >>>> /(917) 699-6641 - cell/ >>>> /(888) 460-2867 / >>>> /www.aeonsolar.com / >>>> >>>> On Jun 1, 2013, at 10:41 AM, Max Balchowsky wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Have installed last three systems (35Kw)with snap n rack. >>>> >>>> love it.... >>>> >>>> Max Balchowsky >>>> Design Engineer >>>> SEE Systems >>>> 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 >>>> Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 >>>> 760-403-6810 >>>> >>>> "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> *From:*Solarguy > >>>> *To:* 'RE-wrenches' >>> > >>>> *Sent:* Friday, May 31, 2013 10:11 PM >>>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack >>>> >>>> The only complaint with the Snapnrack rails is the thin >>>> wall can easily be distorted. This will allow the nut >>>> to drop out of its groove. Love the universal end >>>> clamps but have learned to assemble every one to check >>>> for proper fit before getting on the roof. >>>> >>>> Jim Duncan >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> ] On >>>> Behalf Of Drake >>>> Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 7:32 PM >>>> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack >>>> >>>> Hello Wrenches, >>>> >>>> How would you rate the SnapNrack mounting systems >>>> against Unirac and other mounting systems? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Drake >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change email address & settings: >>>> >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out participant bios: >>>> >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Preferences >>>> >>>> § >>>> >>>> 1 >>>> >>>> 2 >>>> >>>> 3 >>>> >>>> 4 >>>> >>>> 5 >>>> >>>> 6 >>>> >>>> 7 >>>> >>>> 8 >>>> >>>> 9 >>>> >>>> 0 >>>> >>>> - >>>> >>>> = >>>> >>>> Backspace >>>> >>>> Tab >>>> >>>> q >>>> >>>> w >>>> >>>> e >>>> >>>> r >>>> >>>> t >>>> >>>> y >>>> >>>> u >>>> >>>> i >>>> >>>> o >>>> >>>> p >>>> >>>> [ >>>> >>>> ] >>>> >>>> Return >>>> >>>> capslock >>>> >>>> a >>>> >>>> s >>>> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > ... > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Mon Jun 29 12:28:46 2015 From: Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com (Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 12:28:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Bank to Inverter Wiring In-Reply-To: <5590D7EB.2090004@midnitesolar.com> References: <002101d0b0b4$fc5f24c0$f51d6e40$@gosolar.co.nz> <55901EB0.4070507@sindelarsolar.com> <5590D7EB.2090004@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: Hi: >From the comments so far, it appears that within the wrenches group, good practices are the rule and DC cables are kept side by side, so the problem I mentioned hasn't come up much. I have seen "large loop" battery cables a couple of times in solar installs myself out on islands way down south. Also on boats/RV's/motor homes. Please keep the cable loop in mind when you do bench tests of inverters, as it may screw up the results and make it seem like there is something wrong with the inverter. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: "boB at midnitesolar.com" To: RE-wrenches , Date: 06/28/2015 10:30 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Bank to Inverter Wiring Sent by: "RE-wrenches" On 6/28/2015 9:20 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: >>>>I'm not an EE, but I can't see what difference twisting would make in the absence of a building/collapsing field as is normal with AC.<<<< It is little known that with the typical inverters that use the heavy power transformers, have a lot of AC 120 Hz (or 100 Hz for 50 Hz systems) current mixed in with that DC battery current. The AC output current reflects back to the input as ripple current. This is why you want to have at least short as possible Sbattery cable runs AND keep the wires as close together as possible. Twisting the battery cables may help a bit but that is probably overkill. The problem has to do with inductance in the battery cables. You can use as big of cable as you can fit in to reduce resistance, but that will not help to lower the inductance. The problems you can sometimes have with high inductance is that L-C resonance at the inverter can raise the peak voltages seen at the inverter input terminals and can be hard on the inverter. Then again, the high frequency, lighter weight inverters will typically keep most of that ripple inside, between the DC input and AC output and battery cable inductance will not be as much of a problem on the battery cables. boB Gudgel On 6/28/2015 9:20 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: As a matter of course I have always run the positive and negative conductors of high-current cable pairs together, but have never deliberately twisted them, and have never known of any related problems. The most obvious example of this would be 4/0 battery/inverter cables in a 24V system, with a 250A GJ-class breaker or (prior to that) a 300A or 400A Class T fuse. It's pretty tough to thread a twisted pair of 4/0 USE/RHH/RHW cables through a 2" elbow or LB from inverter enclosure to battery enclosure. I'm not an EE, but I can't see what difference twisting would make in the absence of a building/collapsing field as is normal with AC. I have twisted AC conductors together in the past when clients have expressed concerns about EMF from their equipment and wiring, but only AC. Allan Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell On 6/27/2015 2:40 AM, John wrote: That is why for years we have been twisting those leads around each other. I was told it was to cancel out the opposing fields on the wires, but for whatever the correct technical reason is, we have always twisted those heavy wires. John V. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Sent: Saturday, 27 June 2015 5:45 a.m. To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Bank to Inverter Wiring Hi: >From time to time over the years I've come across systems where the routing of DC cables between the batteries and the inverter has been the cause of issues. I'm not referring to wire thickness or quality of terminations. For the purposes of this discussion, just assume that wire thickness and terminations are perfect. What I am referring to is the routing of the positive and negative battery cables. In particular, the loop area within the + and - cables as shown in the image below, The problem I've seen in systems with a large loop in the setup is that the inverter does not provide good surge power and can even go into low voltage shutdown during large surges. Recently this happened again and I wanted to get a better feel for it, so I did some math. For a cable length of about 12', the loop is an inductor which has a value of inductance of about 1 uH for side by side cables and as much as 6 uH for cables about 1 foot apart. This inductance is greatly multiplied by any ferrous metal in the loop and can easily be in the range of 10's to 100's of uH. Examples being cables which run in steel conduits or along the steel frame of a motor home. Inductance causes a voltage drop proportional to the rate at which the current is changing. To get an idea of how large that rate can be for typical inverters, I did surge tests with a 5kW inverter and found that the rate of change of current can be as high as 100A per milli-second or 100,000 Amps/second. Given that, the voltage drop of the wire inductance is then , Vdrop = (rate of change of current) x (inductance), Vdrop for 1 uH = (100,000 A/s) x (0.000001 H) = 0.1V Vdrop for 10 uH = (100,000 A/s) x (0.000001 H) = 1.0V Vdrop for 100 uH = (100,000 A/s) x (0.000001 H) = 10.0V clearly this is a problem. Have any of the wrenches had systems with this issue? If so, how often. JARMO ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From chris at solarwindworks.com Mon Jun 29 12:13:20 2015 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 09:13:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack In-Reply-To: References: <20130601003227.8A69B6B8227@homiemail-a52.g.dreamhost.com> <00e101ce5e75$b6c03f00$2440bd00$@1scom.net> <1370097670.35860.YahooMailNeo@web2803.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <9F9D749A-4DB6-4A49-9B56-A5021C5B30C6@aeonsolar.com> <1391622304.14269.YahooMailNeo@web2805.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <024f01d0af9c$505fa9b0$f11efd10$@solarwindworks.com> Message-ID: <022301d0b286$859bdad0$90d39070$@solarwindworks.com> Hi Benn, The Alpha+ mid clamps are unique, in that they have mini hex head set screws epoxied into place on the top of the mid clamps, with their sharp little points sticking down to bite into the top of the module’s frame. One of these small set screws was sticking out about an 1/8”, not good, all the rest of them are set at less than 1/16” more like a 1/32”. After it shattered the glass we figured out what had happened, and really started to pay attention to this factory glued in grounding point carefully! That is why I’m wondering about the UniRac’s mid clamp bent down points and the degree of tolerance that UniRac bends these to. Hand torqueing is the best bet for sure, although in the case of this mid clamp it never got close to torque spec when the module’s glass shattered. Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP Certified PV Installer Office 530-582-4503 Cell 530-448-9692 Fax 530-582-4603 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Benn Kilburn Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2015 2:07 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack Chris, It sounds (to me) that you are describing the bonding "tooth" dug through the aluminum frame and into the glass? or at least compressed the frame enough to break the glass? If that is the case then i'm betting that the clamp bolt was way over-torqued. You need to check the recommended tightening torque for the module and for the racking system you are using. For example, what we are using these days, Kinetic, the tightening torque for mid and end clamps is 12 ft-lb and here are some recommended clamping torques from some different module mfgrs.... Conergy 8 NM - 6 ft-lb Hanwha 5 NM - 3.7 ft-lb JA Solar 18-24 NM - 13-18 ft-lb These likely vary based on the construction of the module frame. I've also found that some module mfgrs do not list recommended tightening torques in their install manuals, so best to use discretion. We had a module break after clamping it down. The crew described it as 'putting the module in place, clamping it down and turning around to grab the next module and hearing a 'crack' followed by the crackling glass sound (if you have ever heard a module break, the crackling sound can last for a few minutes). The break pattern in the glass seemed to focus on a particular mid clamp. I used a torque wrench, set at around 10 ft-lb and checked all the mid-clamp bolts, increasing the torque setting by a few ft-lb each time until it finally turned a bolt instead of clicking. I found that most of the bolts were close to 30 ft-lb and the one that appeared to break the glass was about 34 ft-lb. Suffice to say, we were getting carried away with tightening using cordless impact drivers. At that point i and the rest of the crew started using the torque wrench as we were going along until we had a better feel for what was the proper torque. (i've done this before, but it is something that needs to be self "re-calibrated" often. Benn Kilburn CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc 6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7 P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com email facebook twitter linkedin google SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal On Thu, Jun 25, 2015 at 5:11 PM, Chris Worcester wrote: Hi Jason, Have you or others been using the new UniRac SM mid and end clamps with the integrated bonding yet? My concern is the “Stainless steel Midclamp points, 2 per module, pierce module frame anodization to bond module to module through clamp.” We had an MSI Alpha + self-bonding midclamp shatter the glass on an LG 280 last fall, as the factory set point was sticking out too far, so as it was being tightened down, on top of the module the point dug through the module’s top frame hitting the glass, shattering it. I do wonder if there are any issues with this “point” on the UniRac midclamps potential for doing the same damage? Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP Certified PV Installer Office 530-582-4503 Cell 530-448-9692 Fax 530-582-4603 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2015 1:13 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack That decision was based on our distribution network offering better pricing on Unirac, and engineers being comfortable with it. Now with the integrated grounding from Unirac, I can't see moving away from it again barring a significant cost benefit. It also stacks and stocks easier than the Ironridge rails. On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 5:55 PM, Dana Brandt wrote: Hi Jason, We've used Unirac for years but have been contemplating Ironridge. I'm curious what your experience was and why you went back to Unirac? Anyone else have input on best racking systems for flush-mounted residential systems on comp roof? Thanks, Dana Dana Brandt Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC www.ecotechenergy.com dana at ecotechenergy.com 360.318.7646 On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:09 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: By Snap N Rack, you mean Sun Run... http://cleantechnica.com/2014/02/05/sunrun-acquires-rec-solars-residential-business-aee-solar-snapnrack-means/ I'm curious if these vertical integrators will still make their acquired brands available to small dealers through distribution. When SolarCity snatched up Zep, I had concerns about being able to service or add onto existing Zep systems we installed. That's definitely a concern going forward, and reason to perhaps stick with the most compatible racking solutions available. We used IronRidge for a while, which is largely compatible with Unirac, but now we're back on the Unirac bandwagon. Interesting times... Jason Szumlanski ​Fafco Solar​ On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Max Balchowsky wrote: We have been using Snap N' Rack for a while, Have lots of installs in Hawaii - so far no problems, I like the convenience of the design for snapping in the slider nut in mid rail, and also the ability to install the panels flush with the end of the rails…. Max Balchowsky Design Engineer SEE Systems 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 760-403-6810 "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" _____ From: Allen Frishman To: RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, February 5, 2014 6:17 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack I am curious about the mid clamps on the snapnrack. The flange that rests on top of the solar panel frame is so small ~ 3/16". Anyone experience any problems with these failing in a big storm? With solar panel frames not being square it is nice to have a little extra to grab - I am always curious as to why these clips are made with such a small area to hold the panels down. All feedback on these clips is appreciated. Al Frishman AeonSolar (917) 699-6641 - cell (888) 460-2867 www.aeonsolar.com On Jun 1, 2013, at 10:41 AM, Max Balchowsky wrote: Have installed last three systems (35Kw)with snap n rack. love it.... Max Balchowsky Design Engineer SEE Systems 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 760-403-6810 "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" _____ From: Solarguy To: 'RE-wrenches' Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 10:11 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack The only complaint with the Snapnrack rails is the thin wall can easily be distorted. This will allow the nut to drop out of its groove. Love the universal end clamps but have learned to assemble every one to check for proper fit before getting on the roof. Jim Duncan -----Original Message----- From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 7:32 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack Hello Wrenches, How would you rate the SnapNrack mounting systems against Unirac and other mounting systems? Thanks, Drake _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Preferences § 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 - = Backspace Tab q w e r t y u i o p [ ] Return capslock a s d f g h j k l ; ' \ shift ` z x c v b n m , . / shift English Deutsch Español Français Italiano Polski Português Русский alt alt Preferences _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From boB at midnitesolar.com Mon Jun 29 14:56:06 2015 From: boB at midnitesolar.com (boB at midnitesolar.com) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 11:56:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solaredge Storedge In-Reply-To: References: <00c801d0b27b$fc5bf1b0$f513d510$@vtsolar.com> Message-ID: <559194C6.9060007@midnitesolar.com> I would think that Solar City would know all about this. Or, maybe I wouldn't ? boB On 6/29/2015 11:06 AM, Rebekah Hren wrote: > I don't have any info, but the StorEdge diagram is confusing to me=20 > when it says "energy independence." I can see a simple compatibility=20 > between the Powerwall DC voltage (300 to 400VDC) and the SolarEdge=20 > operating voltage, ~350VDC, and I can also see how this setup could be=20 > used to maximize self-consumption (a grid-zero type system). > > What is confusing is the AC output of the inverter - it is not=20 > diagrammed as a multimode system, which is what "energy independence"=20 > would indicate to me. The brochure is not showing an AC loads panel=20 > that can be isolated from the grid, or any kind of separate transfer=20 > switch - which would be necessary for a multimode system. > I would be curious to hear what the technical requirements will be to=20 > install the system as a multimode system, if that is indeed a=20 > possibility - which it may not be. > > > Rebekah > > On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 8:57 AM, Kirk Herander > wrote: > > Hello, > > Anyone have detailed info on the Storedge battery-compatible > system from Solaredge? I only found a brochure on their website. > Apparently batteries can be added to a new or existing Solaredge > inverter (the brochure says they have partnered with Tesla=E2=80=99s > Powerwall) for backup power. They call it =E2=80=9CDC-coupling=E2=80= =9D. > > *Kirk Herander* > > *VT Solar, LLC * > > */Proven PV provider since 1991/* > > *www.vermontsolarnow.com * > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEP^TM Inaugural Certificant > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > 802.863.1202 > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Mon Jun 29 15:00:07 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 12:00:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack - Anti-seize In-Reply-To: References: <20130601003227.8A69B6B8227@homiemail-a52.g.dreamhost.com> <00e101ce5e75$b6c03f00$2440bd00$@1scom.net> <1370097670.35860.YahooMailNeo@web2803.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <9F9D749A-4DB6-4A49-9B56-A5021C5B30C6@aeonsolar.com> <1391622304.14269.YahooMailNeo@web2805.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <024f01d0af9c$505fa9b0$f11efd10$@solarwindworks.com> <559066C8.40207@solarray.com> Message-ID: You can use a thin sponge soaked anti-seize and just touch the threads to the sponge. Since it only takes a minute amount of lube to prevent galling, you can prep all your bolts in the shop and bag them. Zip lock the sponge for the next job. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jun 29, 2015, at 10:05 AM, Kurt Johnsen > wrote: Esteemed Wrenches, Does anyone know of a less tedious and messy way to lube the bolts than squeeze tube anti-seize? My 2 cents; I believe that the torque specs for an engineered assembly are put in there for a reason. Ignoring them puts the installer on the hook for any failures. Aside from being the right thing to do, using torque wrenches helps avoid assuming unnecessary financial risk which my thin margins cannot afford. Kurt Johnsen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmcpheeters at yahoo.com Mon Jun 29 15:10:30 2015 From: gmcpheeters at yahoo.com (Greg McPheeters) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 19:10:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack In-Reply-To: <55918125.5000504@solarray.com> References: <55918125.5000504@solarray.com> Message-ID: <996876062.2248485.1435605030196.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> With all this talk of anti-seize in an email thread with "SnapNrack" as the subject line, I just wanted to add another comment which is that we have for several years now shipped all SnapNrack hardware with a wax coating.  This significantly reduces issues with hardware galling even when anti-seize is not used at all.  The coating process on the black hardware seems to even further reduce galling. We still recommend application of anti-seize as a "best practice" but I suspect that 90% (or more) of installs go in without any and feedback from customers on hardware galling has gone down dramatically since we rolled this in.  Perhaps we should promote it more - Greg  Greg McPheetersSenior Engineering Manager, SnapNrack From: Ray Walters To: RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, June 29, 2015 10:32 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack Anti seize also comes in larger cans with a brush, but it still can get messy. Also on the torque issue,  I found just using the T handle hex wrench from the manufacturer (we use S Flex) gets the torque where it should be, and even a gorilla can't over torque it too far. Old fashioned, but we have less heavy tools to carry on the roof, and no over torque issues.   With lubed threads, the T handle wrench can twirl, which is almost as fast as using a power tool. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 6/29/2015 11:12 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: Kurt, Less messy, yes; less tedious, maybe: anti-seize also comes in a semi-solid stick form, like a large lip balm tube with a cap and a twist dial on the bottom to raise the level of the anti-seize as it's used. One quick rub on the threads per bolt. Purchased through Fastenal. Allan Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell   On 6/29/2015 11:05 AM, Kurt Johnsen wrote: Esteemed Wrenches, Does anyone know of a less tedious and messy way to lube the bolts than squeeze tube anti-seize? My 2 cents; I believe that the torque specs for an engineered assembly are put in there for a reason. Ignoring them puts the installer on the hook for any failures. Aside from being the right thing to do, using torque wrenches helps avoid assuming unnecessary financial risk which my thin margins cannot afford. Kurt Johnsen On Sun, Jun 28, 2015 at 5:27 PM, Ray Walters wrote: Besides your note that cordless impact drivers can over torque the clamps, also they spin the bolts too fast which can lead to spalling of the SS hardware. We now hand torque those connects.  Finally, most torque specs are for lubricated bolts.  We use anti-seize on the threads before torquing. Using a cordless impact driver and no lube can cause not only module damage but also clamp damage, and end up with clamps not actually securing the modules, because the bolts spalled out before fully clamping. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 6/28/2015 3:06 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: Chris, It sounds (to me) that you are describing the bonding "tooth" dug through the aluminum frame and into the glass? or at least compressed the frame enough to break the glass?  If that is the case then i'm betting that the clamp bolt was way over-torqued. You need to check the recommended tightening torque for the module and for the racking system you are using.  For example, what we are using these days, Kinetic, the tightening torque for mid and end clamps is 12 ft-lb and here are some recommended clamping torques from some different module mfgrs.... Conergy 8 NM - 6 ft-lb Hanwha 5 NM - 3.7 ft-lb JA Solar 18-24 NM - 13-18 ft-lb These likely vary based on the construction of the module frame. I've also found that some module mfgrs do not list recommended tightening torques in their install manuals, so best to use discretion. We had a module break after clamping it down.  The crew described it as 'putting the module in place, clamping it down and turning around to grab the next module and hearing a 'crack' followed by the crackling glass sound (if you have ever heard a module break, the crackling sound can last for a few minutes).  The break pattern in the glass seemed to focus on a particular mid clamp.  I used a torque wrench, set at around 10 ft-lb and checked all the mid-clamp bolts, increasing the torque setting by a few ft-lb each time until it finally turned a bolt instead of clicking.  I found that most of the bolts were close to 30 ft-lb and the one that appeared to break the glass was about 34 ft-lb. Suffice to say, we were getting carried away with tightening using cordless impact drivers.  At that point i and the rest of the crew started using the torque wrench as we were going along until we had a better feel for what was the proper torque.  (i've done this before, but it is something that needs to be self "re-calibrated" often.  Benn Kilburn  CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc 6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7 P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com      On Thu, Jun 25, 2015 at 5:11 PM, Chris Worcester wrote: Hi Jason, Have you or others been using the new UniRac SM mid and end clamps with the integrated bonding yet? My concern is the “Stainless steel Midclamp points, 2 per module, pierce module frame anodization to bond module to module through clamp.” We had an MSI Alpha + self-bonding midclamp shatter the glass on an LG 280 last fall, as the factory set point was sticking out too far, so as it was being tightened down, on top of the module the point dug through the module’s top frame hitting the glass, shattering it. I do wonder if there are any issues with this “point” on the UniRac midclamps potential for doing the same damage?   Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP Certified PV Installer Office 530-582-4503 Cell 530-448-9692 Fax 530-582-4603 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com   From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2015 1:13 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack   That decision was based on our distribution network offering better pricing on Unirac, and engineers being comfortable with it. Now with the integrated grounding from Unirac, I can't see moving away from it again barring a significant cost benefit. It also stacks and stocks easier than the Ironridge rails.     On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 5:55 PM, Dana Brandt wrote: Hi Jason, We've used Unirac for years but have been contemplating Ironridge. I'm curious what your experience was and why you went back to Unirac? Anyone else have input on best racking systems for flush-mounted residential systems on comp roof? Thanks, Dana Dana Brandt Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC www.ecotechenergy.com dana at ecotechenergy.com 360.318.7646   On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:09 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: By Snap N Rack, you mean Sun Run...   http://cleantechnica.com/2014/02/05/sunrun-acquires-rec-solars-residential-business-aee-solar-snapnrack-means/   I'm curious if these vertical integrators will still make their acquired brands available to small dealers through distribution. When SolarCity snatched up Zep, I had concerns about being able to service or add onto existing Zep systems we installed. That's definitely a concern going forward, and reason to perhaps stick with the most compatible racking solutions available. We used IronRidge for a while, which is largely compatible with Unirac, but now we're back on the Unirac bandwagon.    Interesting times...   Jason Szumlanski ​Fafco Solar​     On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Max Balchowsky wrote: We have been using Snap N' Rack for a while, Have lots of installs in Hawaii - so far no problems, I like the convenience of the design for snapping in the slider nut in mid rail, and also the ability to install the panels flush with the end of the rails….   Max Balchowsky Design Engineer SEE Systems 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 760-403-6810 "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation"   From: Allen Frishman To: RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, February 5, 2014 6:17 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack   I am curious about the mid clamps on the snapnrack.   The flange that rests on top of the solar panel frame is so small ~ 3/16".    Anyone experience any problems with these failing in a big storm?    With solar panel frames not being square it is nice to have a little extra to grab - I am always curious as to why these clips are made with such a small area to hold the panels down.      All feedback on these clips is appreciated. Al Frishman AeonSolar (917) 699-6641 - cell (888) 460-2867 www.aeonsolar.com   On Jun 1, 2013, at 10:41 AM, Max Balchowsky wrote: Have installed last three systems (35Kw)with snap n rack. love it....   Max Balchowsky Design Engineer SEE Systems 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 760-403-6810 "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation"   From: Solarguy To: 'RE-wrenches' Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 10:11 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack   The only complaint with the Snapnrack rails is the thin wall can easily be distorted. This will allow the nut to drop out of its groove. Love the universal end clamps but have learned to assemble every one to check for proper fit before getting on the roof. Jim Duncan -----Original Message----- From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 7:32 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack   Hello Wrenches,   How would you rate the SnapNrack mounting systems against Unirac and other mounting systems?   Thanks,   Drake   _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine   List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org   Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org   List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org   List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm   Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change email 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URL: From kirk at vtsolar.com Mon Jun 29 15:36:45 2015 From: kirk at vtsolar.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 15:36:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solaredge Storedge In-Reply-To: <559194C6.9060007@midnitesolar.com> References: <00c801d0b27b$fc5bf1b0$f513d510$@vtsolar.com> <559194C6.9060007@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: <01ec01d0b2a2$ef1bd890$cd5389b0$@vtsolar.com> Here's the reply I just got back from Solaredge: "As this stands ATM Tesla has only announced the product, not finished developing it. As Tesla finalizes it the details will become available. Please click StorEdge on the bottom right of the web page and sign up for the announcements as they come available. Furthermore all of our inverters are compatible with this announcement " I get a funny vibe about all this hype / vaporware. Announced, but still in development. Kind of like the Powerwall itself. The Powerwall is supposedly sold out through 2016, with $800 mil in advance orders, and no product being shipped. Are there any Powerwalls in operation anywhere in the real world? Even in beta test? Available tech info on both Powerwall and Storedge is basically zero. Too bad nonsense marketing like this causes some potential customers to delay their commitment to install a system. Kirk Herander VT Solar, LLC Proven PV provider since 1991 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of boB at midnitesolar.com Sent: Monday, June 29, 2015 2:56 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solaredge Storedge I would think that Solar City would know all about this. Or, maybe I wouldn't ? boB On 6/29/2015 11:06 AM, Rebekah Hren wrote: I don't have any info, but the StorEdge diagram is confusing to me when it says "energy independence." I can see a simple compatibility between the Powerwall DC voltage (300 to 400VDC) and the SolarEdge operating voltage, ~350VDC, and I can also see how this setup could be used to maximize self-consumption (a grid-zero type system). What is confusing is the AC output of the inverter - it is not diagrammed as a multimode system, which is what "energy independence" would indicate to me. The brochure is not showing an AC loads panel that can be isolated from the grid, or any kind of separate transfer switch - which would be necessary for a multimode system. I would be curious to hear what the technical requirements will be to install the system as a multimode system, if that is indeed a possibility - which it may not be. Rebekah On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 8:57 AM, Kirk Herander wrote: Hello, Anyone have detailed info on the Storedge battery-compatible system from Solaredge? I only found a brochure on their website. Apparently batteries can be added to a new or existing Solaredge inverter (the brochure says they have partnered with Tesla's Powerwall) for backup power. They call it "DC-coupling". Kirk Herander VT Solar, LLC Proven PV provider since 1991 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Mon Jun 29 17:55:03 2015 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 15:55:03 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Bank to Inverter Wiring In-Reply-To: References: <002101d0b0b4$fc5f24c0$f51d6e40$@gosolar.co.nz> <55901EB0.4070507@sindelarsolar.com> <5590D7EB.2090004@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: What about when you have the (+) and (-) terminals at opposite ends of a larger battery bank? Sure you can run the conductors side-by-side once they meet up on their way to the inverter, but would you consider the distance between the end terminals a "large loop"? Ideally the battery string is laid out so the end terminals are close together and close to the inverter, but this isn't always the case. Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 > On Jun 29, 2015, at 10:28 AM, Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com wrote: > > Hi: > > From the comments so far, it appears that within the wrenches group, good practices are the rule and DC cables are kept side by side, so the problem I mentioned hasn't come up much. > > I have seen "large loop" battery cables a couple of times in solar installs myself out on islands way down south. Also on boats/RV's/motor homes. > > Please keep the cable loop in mind when you do bench tests of inverters, as it may screw up the results and make it seem like there is something wrong with the inverter. > > JARMO > _____________________________________________________________________________________ > > Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer > Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 > Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 > > > > > > *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail > > > > From: "boB at midnitesolar.com" > To: RE-wrenches , > Date: 06/28/2015 10:30 PM > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Bank to Inverter Wiring > Sent by: "RE-wrenches" > > > > > > On 6/28/2015 9:20 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > >>>>I'm not an EE, but I can't see what difference twisting would make in > the absence of a building/collapsing field as is normal with AC.<<<< > > It is little known that with the typical inverters that use the heavy power transformers, > have a lot of AC 120 Hz (or 100 Hz for 50 Hz systems) current mixed in with that DC battery current. > > The AC output current reflects back to the input as ripple current. This is why you want to > have at least short as possible Sbattery cable runs AND keep the wires as close together as possible. > > Twisting the battery cables may help a bit but that is probably overkill. > > The problem has to do with inductance in the battery cables. You can use as big of cable > as you can fit in to reduce resistance, but that will not help to lower the inductance. > The problems you can sometimes have with high inductance is that L-C resonance at the > inverter can raise the peak voltages seen at the inverter input terminals and can be hard on > the inverter. > > Then again, the high frequency, lighter weight inverters will typically keep most of that ripple > inside, between the DC input and AC output and battery cable inductance will not be as much > of a problem on the battery cables. > > boB Gudgel > > > > > On 6/28/2015 9:20 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > As a matter of course I have always run the positive and negative conductors of high-current cable pairs together, but have never deliberately twisted them, and have never known of any related problems. > The most obvious example of this would be 4/0 battery/inverter cables in a 24V system, with a 250A GJ-class breaker or (prior to that) a 300A or 400A Class T fuse. It's pretty tough to thread a twisted pair of 4/0 USE/RHH/RHW cables through a 2" elbow or LB from inverter enclosure to battery enclosure. > I'm not an EE, but I can't see what difference twisting would make in the absence of a building/collapsing field as is normal with AC. > I have twisted AC conductors together in the past when clients have expressed concerns about EMF from their equipment and wiring, but only AC. > Allan > Allan Sindelar > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > 505 780-2738 cell > > > > On 6/27/2015 2:40 AM, John wrote: > That is why for years we have been twisting those leads around each other. I was told it was to cancel out the opposing fields on the wires, but for whatever the correct technical reason is, we have always twisted those heavy wires. John V. > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com > Sent: Saturday, 27 June 2015 5:45 a.m. > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Bank to Inverter Wiring > > Hi: > > From time to time over the years I've come across systems where the routing of DC cables between the batteries and the inverter has been the cause of issues. > > I'm not referring to wire thickness or quality of terminations. For the purposes of this discussion, just assume that wire thickness and terminations are perfect. > > What I am referring to is the routing of the positive and negative battery cables. In particular, the loop area within the + and - cables as shown in the image below, > > The problem I've seen in systems with a large loop in the setup is that the inverter does not provide good surge power and can even go into low voltage shutdown during large surges. > > Recently this happened again and I wanted to get a better feel for it, so I did some math. > > For a cable length of about 12', the loop is an inductor which has a value of inductance of about 1 uH for side by side cables and as much as 6 uH for cables about 1 foot apart. > > This inductance is greatly multiplied by any ferrous metal in the loop and can easily be in the range of 10's to 100's of uH. Examples being cables which run in steel conduits or along the steel frame of a motor home. > > Inductance causes a voltage drop proportional to the rate at which the current is changing. To get an idea of how large that rate can be for typical inverters, I did surge tests with a 5kW inverter and found that the rate of change of current can be as high as 100A per milli-second or 100,000 Amps/second. > > Given that, the voltage drop of the wire inductance is then , Vdrop = (rate of change of current) x (inductance), > > Vdrop for 1 uH = (100,000 A/s) x (0.000001 H) = 0.1V > Vdrop for 10 uH = (100,000 A/s) x (0.000001 H) = 1.0V > Vdrop for 100 uH = (100,000 A/s) x (0.000001 H) = 10.0V clearly this is a problem. > > Have any of the wrenches had systems with this issue? If so, how often. > > > JARMO > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. > _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Jun 29 18:05:40 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 16:05:40 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Bank to Inverter Wiring In-Reply-To: References: <002101d0b0b4$fc5f24c0$f51d6e40$@gosolar.co.nz> <55901EB0.4070507@sindelarsolar.com> <5590D7EB.2090004@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: <5591C134.7010003@solarray.com> This is fascinating because while I knew the DC cables had an AC component, I never realized how much inductance played in the volt drop to the inverter. Thanks for bringing this to our attention Jarmo. Which brings up another question based on Benn's question: isn't the battery itself part of the inductive loop? and would the lead inside and steel cases act to increase the inductance? Should we consider changing battery layouts not just to shorten cable lengths, but to counter inductance in the batteries themselves? If needed, we could actually wire the batteries to "twist" by putting every other 2 v cell in the opposite row. My guess is that it wouldn't be worth it, but I've been wrong many times....... R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 6/29/2015 3:55 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > What about when you have the (+) and (-) terminals at opposite ends of > a larger battery bank? Sure you can run the conductors side-by-side > once they meet up on their way to the inverter, but would you consider > the distance between the end terminals a "large loop"? > Ideally the battery string is laid out so the end terminals are close > together and close to the inverter, but this isn't always the case. > > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy Inc. > 780-906-7807 > > > On Jun 29, 2015, at 10:28 AM, Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com > wrote: > >> Hi: >> >> From the comments so far, it appears that within the wrenches group, >> good practices are the rule and DC cables are kept side by side, so >> the problem I mentioned hasn't come up much. >> >> I have seen "large loop" battery cables a couple of times in solar >> installs myself out on islands way down south. Also on >> boats/RV's/motor homes. >> >> Please keep the cable loop in mind when you do bench tests of >> inverters, as it may screw up the results and make it seem like there >> is something wrong with the inverter. >> >> JARMO >> _____________________________________________________________________________________ >> * >> Jarmo Venalainen* | *Schneider Electric **| Xantrex Brand* | >> *CANADA* | *Sales Application Engineer* * >> Phone:* +604-422-2528 | *Tech Support:* 800-670-0707 | *Mobile:* >> +604-505-0291 * >> Email:* _jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com_ >> | >> *Site:*_www.Xantrex.com_ | *Address:* 3700 >> Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail >> >> >> >> From: "boB at midnitesolar.com " >> > >> To: RE-wrenches > >, >> Date: 06/28/2015 10:30 PM >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Bank to Inverter Wiring >> Sent by: "RE-wrenches" > > >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> >> >> On 6/28/2015 9:20 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: >> >>>>I'm not an EE, but I can't see what difference twisting would make in >> the absence of a building/collapsing field as is normal with AC.<<<< >> >> It is little known that with the typical inverters that use the heavy >> power transformers, >> have a lot of AC 120 Hz (or 100 Hz for 50 Hz systems) current mixed >> in with that DC battery current. >> >> The AC output current reflects back to the input as ripple current. >> This is why you want to >> have at least short as possible Sbattery cable runs AND keep the >> wires as close together as possible. >> >> Twisting the battery cables may help a bit but that is probably overkill. >> >> The problem has to do with inductance in the battery cables. You can >> use as big of cable >> as you can fit in to reduce resistance, but that will not help to >> lower the inductance. >> The problems you can sometimes have with high inductance is that L-C >> resonance at the >> inverter can raise the peak voltages seen at the inverter input >> terminals and can be hard on >> the inverter. >> >> Then again, the high frequency, lighter weight inverters will >> typically keep most of that ripple >> inside, between the DC input and AC output and battery cable >> inductance will not be as much >> of a problem on the battery cables. >> >> boB Gudgel >> >> >> >> >> On 6/28/2015 9:20 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: >> As a matter of course I have always run the positive and negative >> conductors of high-current cable pairs together, but have never >> deliberately twisted them, and have never known of any related problems. >> The most obvious example of this would be 4/0 battery/inverter cables >> in a 24V system, with a 250A GJ-class breaker or (prior to that) a >> 300A or 400A Class T fuse. It's pretty tough to thread a twisted pair >> of 4/0 USE/RHH/RHW cables through a 2" elbow or LB from inverter >> enclosure to battery enclosure. >> I'm not an EE, but I can't see what difference twisting would make in >> the absence of a building/collapsing field as is normal with AC. >> I have twisted AC conductors together in the past when clients have >> expressed concerns about EMF from their equipment and wiring, but >> only AC. >> Allan >> >> *Allan Sindelar*_ >> __allan at sindelarsolar.com_ >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional >> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.* >> 505 780-2738 cell* >> >> On 6/27/2015 2:40 AM, John wrote: >> That is why for years we have been twisting those leads around each >> other. I was told it was to cancel out the opposing fields on the >> wires, but for whatever the correct technical reason is, we have >> always twisted those heavy wires. John V. >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches >> [_mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org_] *On Behalf Of >> *_Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com_ >> * >> Sent:* Saturday, 27 June 2015 5:45 a.m.* >> To:* RE-wrenches* >> Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Battery Bank to Inverter Wiring >> >> Hi: >> >> From time to time over the years I've come across systems where the >> routing of DC cables between the batteries and the inverter has been >> the cause of issues. >> >> I'm not referring to wire thickness or quality of terminations. For >> the purposes of this discussion, just assume that wire thickness and >> terminations are perfect. >> >> What I am referring to is the routing of the positive and negative >> battery cables. In particular, the loop area within the + and - >> cables as shown in the image below, >> >> The problem I've seen in systems with a large loop in the setup is >> that the inverter does not provide good surge power and can even go >> into low voltage shutdown during large surges. >> >> Recently this happened again and I wanted to get a better feel for >> it, so I did some math. >> >> For a cable length of about 12', the loop is an inductor which has a >> value of inductance of about 1 uH for side by side cables and as much >> as 6 uH for cables about 1 foot apart. >> >> This inductance is greatly multiplied by any ferrous metal in the >> loop and can easily be in the range of 10's to 100's of uH. Examples >> being cables which run in steel conduits or along the steel frame of >> a motor home. >> >> Inductance causes a voltage drop proportional to the rate at which >> the current is changing. To get an idea of how large that rate can >> be for typical inverters, I did surge tests with a 5kW inverter and >> found that the rate of change of current can be as high as 100A per >> milli-second or 100,000 Amps/second. >> >> Given that, the voltage drop of the wire inductance is then , Vdrop = >> (rate of change of current) x (inductance), >> >> Vdrop for 1 uH = (100,000 A/s) x (0.000001 H) = 0.1V >> Vdrop for 10 uH = (100,000 A/s) x (0.000001 H) = 1.0V >> Vdrop for 100 uH = (100,000 A/s) x (0.000001 H) = 10.0V clearly this >> is a problem. >> >> Have any of the wrenches had systems with this issue? If so, how often. >> >> >> JARMO >> >> >> >> >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. >> _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From windsine at gmail.com Mon Jun 29 18:15:16 2015 From: windsine at gmail.com (Roy Rakobitsch) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 17:15:16 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Bank to Inverter Wiring In-Reply-To: <5591C134.7010003@solarray.com> References: <002101d0b0b4$fc5f24c0$f51d6e40$@gosolar.co.nz> <55901EB0.4070507@sindelarsolar.com> <5590D7EB.2090004@midnitesolar.com> <5591C134.7010003@solarray.com> Message-ID: In my experience, adding large electrolytic filter caps at the inverter seems to help quite a bit with ac ripple issues and increases inverter efficiency a bit as well. Roy Rakobitsch NABCEP Certified Small Wind Installer® NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® Certified Advanced Tower Climbing, Safety & Rescue Wind/PV Design Engineer Windsine LLC 631-514-4166 www.windsine.org On Jun 29, 2015 5:05 PM, "Ray Walters" wrote: > This is fascinating because while I knew the DC cables had an AC > component, I never realized how much inductance played in the volt drop to > the inverter. Thanks for bringing this to our attention Jarmo. > Which brings up another question based on Benn's question: isn't the > battery itself part of the inductive loop? and would the lead inside and > steel cases act to increase the inductance? Should we consider changing > battery layouts not just to shorten cable lengths, but to counter > inductance in the batteries themselves? If needed, we could actually wire > the batteries to "twist" by putting every other 2 v cell in the opposite > row. > My guess is that it wouldn't be worth it, but I've been wrong many > times....... > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 > > On 6/29/2015 3:55 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > > What about when you have the (+) and (-) terminals at opposite ends of a > larger battery bank? Sure you can run the conductors side-by-side once > they meet up on their way to the inverter, but would you consider the > distance between the end terminals a "large loop"? > Ideally the battery string is laid out so the end terminals are close > together and close to the inverter, but this isn't always the case. > > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy Inc. > 780-906-7807 > > > On Jun 29, 2015, at 10:28 AM, Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com > wrote: > > Hi: > > From the comments so far, it appears that within the wrenches group, good > practices are the rule and DC cables are kept side by side, so the problem > I mentioned hasn't come up much. > > I have seen "large loop" battery cables a couple of times in solar > installs myself out on islands way down south. Also on boats/RV's/motor > homes. > > Please keep the cable loop in mind when you do bench tests of inverters, > as it may screw up the results and make it seem like there is something > wrong with the inverter. > > JARMO > > _____________________________________________________________________________________ > > * Jarmo Venalainen* | * Schneider Electric ** | Xantrex Brand* | > *CANADA* | *Sales Application Engineer* > * Phone:* +604-422-2528 | *Tech Support:* 800-670-0707 | *Mobile:* > +604-505-0291 > * Email:* *jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com* > | *Site:** www.Xantrex.com* > | *Address:* 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC > V5G4M1 > > > > > > > > *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail > > > > From: "boB at midnitesolar.com" To: RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>, Date: 06/28/2015 10:30 PM Subject: Re: > [RE-wrenches] Battery Bank to Inverter Wiring Sent by: "RE-wrenches" < > re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org> > ------------------------------ > > > > > On 6/28/2015 9:20 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > >>>>I'm not an EE, but I can't see what difference twisting would make in > the absence of a building/collapsing field as is normal with AC.<<<< > > It is little known that with the typical inverters that use the heavy > power transformers, > have a lot of AC 120 Hz (or 100 Hz for 50 Hz systems) current mixed in > with that DC battery current. > > The AC output current reflects back to the input as ripple current. This > is why you want to > have at least short as possible Sbattery cable runs AND keep the wires as > close together as possible. > > Twisting the battery cables may help a bit but that is probably overkill. > > The problem has to do with inductance in the battery cables. You can use > as big of cable > as you can fit in to reduce resistance, but that will not help to lower > the inductance. > The problems you can sometimes have with high inductance is that L-C > resonance at the > inverter can raise the peak voltages seen at the inverter input terminals > and can be hard on > the inverter. > > Then again, the high frequency, lighter weight inverters will typically > keep most of that ripple > inside, between the DC input and AC output and battery cable inductance > will not be as much > of a problem on the battery cables. > > boB Gudgel > > > > > On 6/28/2015 9:20 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > As a matter of course I have always run the positive and negative > conductors of high-current cable pairs together, but have never > deliberately twisted them, and have never known of any related problems. > The most obvious example of this would be 4/0 battery/inverter cables in a > 24V system, with a 250A GJ-class breaker or (prior to that) a 300A or 400A > Class T fuse. It's pretty tough to thread a twisted pair of 4/0 USE/RHH/RHW > cables through a 2" elbow or LB from inverter enclosure to battery > enclosure. > I'm not an EE, but I can't see what difference twisting would make in the > absence of a building/collapsing field as is normal with AC. > I have twisted AC conductors together in the past when clients have > expressed concerns about EMF from their equipment and wiring, but only AC. > Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > *allan at sindelarsolar.com* > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > * 505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* > > > > On 6/27/2015 2:40 AM, John wrote: > That is why for years we have been twisting those leads around each > other. I was told it was to cancel out the opposing fields on the wires, > but for whatever the correct technical reason is, we have always twisted > those heavy wires. John V. > > *From:* RE-wrenches [*mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org* > ] *On Behalf Of * > *Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com* > > * Sent:* Saturday, 27 June 2015 5:45 a.m. > * To:* RE-wrenches > * Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Battery Bank to Inverter Wiring > > Hi: > > From time to time over the years I've come across systems where the > routing of DC cables between the batteries and the inverter has been the > cause of issues. > > I'm not referring to wire thickness or quality of terminations. For the > purposes of this discussion, just assume that wire thickness and > terminations are perfect. > > What I am referring to is the routing of the positive and negative battery > cables. In particular, the loop area within the + and - cables as shown in > the image below, > > The problem I've seen in systems with a large loop in the setup is that > the inverter does not provide good surge power and can even go into low > voltage shutdown during large surges. > > Recently this happened again and I wanted to get a better feel for it, so > I did some math. > > For a cable length of about 12', the loop is an inductor which has a value > of inductance of about 1 uH for side by side cables and as much as 6 uH for > cables about 1 foot apart. > > This inductance is greatly multiplied by any ferrous metal in the loop and > can easily be in the range of 10's to 100's of uH. Examples being cables > which run in steel conduits or along the steel frame of a motor home. > > Inductance causes a voltage drop proportional to the rate at which the > current is changing. To get an idea of how large that rate can be for > typical inverters, I did surge tests with a 5kW inverter and found that the > rate of change of current can be as high as 100A per milli-second or > 100,000 Amps/second. > > Given that, the voltage drop of the wire inductance is then , Vdrop = > (rate of change of current) x (inductance), > > Vdrop for 1 uH = (100,000 A/s) x (0.000001 H) = 0.1V > Vdrop for 10 uH = (100,000 A/s) x (0.000001 H) = 1.0V > Vdrop for 100 uH = (100,000 A/s) x (0.000001 H) = 10.0V clearly this is > a problem. > > Have any of the wrenches had systems with this issue? If so, how often. > > > JARMO > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. > ______________________________________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From boB at midnitesolar.com Mon Jun 29 19:06:14 2015 From: boB at midnitesolar.com (boB at midnitesolar.com) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 16:06:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Bank to Inverter Wiring In-Reply-To: References: <002101d0b0b4$fc5f24c0$f51d6e40$@gosolar.co.nz> <55901EB0.4070507@sindelarsolar.com> <5590D7EB.2090004@midnitesolar.com> <5591C134.7010003@solarray.com> Message-ID: <5591CF66.8050708@midnitesolar.com> On 6/29/2015 3:15 PM, Roy Rakobitsch wrote: > > In my experience, adding large electrolytic filter caps at the > inverter seems to help quite a bit with ac ripple issues and increases > inverter efficiency a bit as well. > Yep, that usually helps. Turns out that if you get just the right amount of battery cable inductance AND just the right amount of inductance, then you can have an LC resonant circuit that makes the voltage go sky high and let out the smoke. But typically, raising the capacitance lowers the resonant frequency enough below 120 Hz that it helps the situation. As far as batteries being part of the loop, yes they are. Just picture their layout as a piece of wire and you can get a feel for that contribution to the loop. You could also place a capacitor or two right where the battery cables come together again. But you gotta stop somewhere. This is more educational or a way to visualize what is going on so that you use the best wiring practices when at all possible. There are other related best practices sort of relating to this as well, as far as wiring chargers and inverters electrically close to the batteries. If you have the charge controllers wired too close to the inverter battery terminals and also have long battery cables, then the inverter will tend to draw more current from the charge controllers rather than the batteries and cause problems with the CC. By wiring the CC positive and negatives closer to the battery terminals, then the inverter MUST draw its power from the battery terminal... The battery acts as kind of a filter for the CC and the CC doesn't get jerked around so much by the inverter's input ripple current. This can help reduce wear and tear on the CC somewhat. But we've been used to wiring the batteries to bus bars inside of a main connector box (E-panel, flexware, whatever), and aren't really given the opportunity to make nice best practice connections, except maybe to make the battery cables as short as possible and twist them as best we can. boB > Roy Rakobitsch > NABCEP Certified Small Wind Installer® > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® > Certified Advanced Tower Climbing, Safety & Rescue > Wind/PV Design Engineer > Windsine LLC > 631-514-4166 > www.windsine.org > > On Jun 29, 2015 5:05 PM, "Ray Walters" > wrote: > > This is fascinating because while I knew the DC cables had an AC > component, I never realized how much inductance played in the volt > drop to the inverter. Thanks for bringing this to our attention > Jarmo. > Which brings up another question based on Benn's question: isn't > the battery itself part of the inductive loop? and would the lead > inside and steel cases act to increase the inductance? Should we > consider changing battery layouts not just to shorten cable > lengths, but to counter inductance in the batteries themselves? > If needed, we could actually wire the batteries to "twist" by > putting every other 2 v cell in the opposite row. > My guess is that it wouldn't be worth it, but I've been wrong many > times....... > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > On 6/29/2015 3:55 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: >> What about when you have the (+) and (-) terminals at opposite >> ends of a larger battery bank? Sure you can run the conductors >> side-by-side once they meet up on their way to the inverter, but >> would you consider the distance between the end terminals a >> "large loop"? >> Ideally the battery string is laid out so the end terminals are >> close together and close to the inverter, but this isn't always >> the case. >> >> Benn Kilburn >> SkyFire Energy Inc. >> 780-906-7807 >> >> >> On Jun 29, 2015, at 10:28 AM, >> Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com >> wrote: >> >>> Hi: >>> >>> From the comments so far, it appears that within the wrenches >>> group, good practices are the rule and DC cables are kept side >>> by side, so the problem I mentioned hasn't come up much. >>> >>> I have seen "large loop" battery cables a couple of times in >>> solar installs myself out on islands way down south. Also on >>> boats/RV's/motor homes. >>> >>> Please keep the cable loop in mind when you do bench tests of >>> inverters, as it may screw up the results and make it seem like >>> there is something wrong with the inverter. >>> >>> JARMO >>> _____________________________________________________________________________________ >>> * >>> Jarmo Venalainen* | *Schneider Electric **| Xantrex Brand* | >>> *CANADA* | *Sales Application Engineer* * >>> Phone:* +604-422-2528 | *Tech Support:* >>> 800-670-0707 | *Mobile:* +604-505-0291 >>> * >>> Email:* _jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com_ >>> | >>> *Site:*_www.Xantrex.com_ | *Address:* >>> 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail >>> >>> >>> >>> From: "boB at midnitesolar.com " >>> > >>> To: RE-wrenches >> >, >>> Date: 06/28/2015 10:30 PM >>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Bank to Inverter Wiring >>> Sent by: "RE-wrenches" >>> >> > >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 6/28/2015 9:20 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: >>> >>>>I'm not an EE, but I can't see what difference twisting >>> would make in >>> the absence of a building/collapsing field as is normal with AC.<<<< >>> >>> It is little known that with the typical inverters that use the >>> heavy power transformers, >>> have a lot of AC 120 Hz (or 100 Hz for 50 Hz systems) current >>> mixed in with that DC battery current. >>> >>> The AC output current reflects back to the input as ripple >>> current. This is why you want to >>> have at least short as possible Sbattery cable runs AND keep the >>> wires as close together as possible. >>> >>> Twisting the battery cables may help a bit but that is probably >>> overkill. >>> >>> The problem has to do with inductance in the battery cables. >>> You can use as big of cable >>> as you can fit in to reduce resistance, but that will not help >>> to lower the inductance. >>> The problems you can sometimes have with high inductance is that >>> L-C resonance at the >>> inverter can raise the peak voltages seen at the inverter input >>> terminals and can be hard on >>> the inverter. >>> >>> Then again, the high frequency, lighter weight inverters will >>> typically keep most of that ripple >>> inside, between the DC input and AC output and battery cable >>> inductance will not be as much >>> of a problem on the battery cables. >>> >>> boB Gudgel >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 6/28/2015 9:20 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: >>> As a matter of course I have always run the positive and >>> negative conductors of high-current cable pairs together, but >>> have never deliberately twisted them, and have never known of >>> any related problems. >>> The most obvious example of this would be 4/0 battery/inverter >>> cables in a 24V system, with a 250A GJ-class breaker or (prior >>> to that) a 300A or 400A Class T fuse. It's pretty tough to >>> thread a twisted pair of 4/0 USE/RHH/RHW cables through a 2" >>> elbow or LB from inverter enclosure to battery enclosure. >>> I'm not an EE, but I can't see what difference twisting would >>> make in the absence of a building/collapsing field as is normal >>> with AC. >>> I have twisted AC conductors together in the past when clients >>> have expressed concerns about EMF from their equipment and >>> wiring, but only AC. >>> Allan >>> >>> *Allan Sindelar*_ >>> __allan at sindelarsolar.com_ >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional >>> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >>> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.* >>> 505 780-2738 cell* >>> >>> On 6/27/2015 2:40 AM, John wrote: >>> That is why for years we have been twisting those leads around >>> each other. I was told it was to cancel out the opposing fields >>> on the wires, but for whatever the correct technical reason is, >>> we have always twisted those heavy wires. John V. >>> >>> *From:* RE-wrenches >>> [_mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org_] *On Behalf >>> Of *_Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com_ >>> * >>> Sent:* Saturday, 27 June 2015 5:45 a.m.* >>> To:* RE-wrenches* >>> Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Battery Bank to Inverter Wiring >>> >>> Hi: >>> >>> From time to time over the years I've come across systems where >>> the routing of DC cables between the batteries and the inverter >>> has been the cause of issues. >>> >>> I'm not referring to wire thickness or quality of terminations. >>> For the purposes of this discussion, just assume that wire >>> thickness and terminations are perfect. >>> >>> What I am referring to is the routing of the positive and >>> negative battery cables. In particular, the loop area within >>> the + and - cables as shown in the image below, >>> >>> The problem I've seen in systems with a large loop in the setup >>> is that the inverter does not provide good surge power and can >>> even go into low voltage shutdown during large surges. >>> >>> Recently this happened again and I wanted to get a better feel >>> for it, so I did some math. >>> >>> For a cable length of about 12', the loop is an inductor which >>> has a value of inductance of about 1 uH for side by side cables >>> and as much as 6 uH for cables about 1 foot apart. >>> >>> This inductance is greatly multiplied by any ferrous metal in >>> the loop and can easily be in the range of 10's to 100's of uH. >>> Examples being cables which run in steel conduits or along the >>> steel frame of a motor home. >>> >>> Inductance causes a voltage drop proportional to the rate at >>> which the current is changing. To get an idea of how large that >>> rate can be for typical inverters, I did surge tests with a 5kW >>> inverter and found that the rate of change of current can be as >>> high as 100A per milli-second or 100,000 Amps/second. >>> >>> Given that, the voltage drop of the wire inductance is then , >>> Vdrop = (rate of change of current) x (inductance), >>> >>> Vdrop for 1 uH = (100,000 A/s) x (0.000001 H) = 0.1V >>> Vdrop for 10 uH = (100,000 A/s) x (0.000001 H) = 1.0V >>> Vdrop for 100 uH = (100,000 A/s) x (0.000001 H) = 10.0V >>> clearly this is a problem. >>> >>> Have any of the wrenches had systems with this issue? If so, >>> how often. >>> >>> >>> JARMO >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Mon Jun 29 20:51:42 2015 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 17:51:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solaredge Storedge In-Reply-To: <01ec01d0b2a2$ef1bd890$cd5389b0$@vtsolar.com> References: <00c801d0b27b$fc5bf1b0$f513d510$@vtsolar.com> <559194C6.9060007@midnitesolar.com> <01ec01d0b2a2$ef1bd890$cd5389b0$@vtsolar.com> Message-ID: <1435625502.459430601@webmail.finestplanet.com> sadly, all we have left is hopium On Monday, June 29, 2015 12:36pm, "Kirk Herander" said: Here’s the reply I just got back from Solaredge: “As this stands ATM Tesla has only announced the product, not finished developing it. As Tesla finalizes it the details will become available. Please click StorEdge on the bottom right of the web page and sign up for the announcements as they come available. Furthermore all of our inverters are compatible with this announcement “ I get a funny vibe about all this hype / vaporware. Announced, but still in development. Kind of like the Powerwall itself. The Powerwall is supposedly sold out through 2016, with $800 mil in advance orders, and no product being shipped. Are there any Powerwalls in operation anywhere in the real world? Even in beta test? Available tech info on both Powerwall and Storedge is basically zero. Too bad nonsense marketing like this causes some potential customers to delay their commitment to install a system. Kirk Herander VT Solar, LLC Proven PV provider since 1991 [ www.vermontsolarnow.com ]( www.vermontsolarnow.com ) dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of boB at midnitesolar.com Sent: Monday, June 29, 2015 2:56 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solaredge Storedge I would think that Solar City would know all about this. Or, maybe I wouldn't ? boB On 6/29/2015 11:06 AM, Rebekah Hren wrote: I don't have any info, but the StorEdge diagram is confusing to me when it says "energy independence." I can see a simple compatibility between the Powerwall DC voltage (300 to 400VDC) and the SolarEdge operating voltage, ~350VDC, and I can also see how this setup could be used to maximize self-consumption (a grid-zero type system). What is confusing is the AC output of the inverter - it is not diagrammed as a multimode system, which is what "energy independence" would indicate to me. The brochure is not showing an AC loads panel that can be isolated from the grid, or any kind of separate transfer switch - which would be necessary for a multimode system. I would be curious to hear what the technical requirements will be to install the system as a multimode system, if that is indeed a possibility - which it may not be. Rebekah On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 8:57 AM, Kirk Herander <[ kirk at vtsolar.com ]( mailto:kirk at vtsolar.com )> wrote: Hello, Anyone have detailed info on the Storedge battery-compatible system from Solaredge? I only found a brochure on their website. Apparently batteries can be added to a new or existing Solaredge inverter (the brochure says they have partnered with Tesla’s Powerwall) for backup power. They call it “DC-coupling”. Kirk Herander VT Solar, LLC Proven PV provider since 1991 [ www.vermontsolarnow.com ]( http://www.vermontsolarnow.com ) dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Jun 29 18:21:26 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 12:21:26 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Bank to Inverter Wiring Message-ID: Wrenches We always try to minimize in connection cables as well as home run cables to the shorted length possible, restating batteries to aid this should always be considered as well as positive and negative runs Jerry Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Ray Walters
Date:06/29/2015 12:05 PM (GMT-10:00)
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Bank to Inverter Wiring
This is fascinating because while I knew the DC cables had an AC component, I never realized how much inductance played in the volt drop to the inverter. Thanks for bringing this to our attention Jarmo. Which brings up another question based on Benn's question: isn't the battery itself part of the inductive loop? and would the lead inside and steel cases act to increase the inductance? Should we consider changing battery layouts not just to shorten cable lengths, but to counter inductance in the batteries themselves? If needed, we could actually wire the batteries to "twist" by putting every other 2 v cell in the opposite row. My guess is that it wouldn't be worth it, but I've been wrong many times....... R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 6/29/2015 3:55 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: What about when you have the (+) and (-) terminals at opposite ends of a larger battery bank? Sure you can run the conductors side-by-side once they meet up on their way to the inverter, but would you consider the distance between the end terminals a "large loop"? Ideally the battery string is laid out so the end terminals are close together and close to the inverter, but this isn't always the case. Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 On Jun 29, 2015, at 10:28 AM, Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com wrote: Hi: From the comments so far, it appears that within the wrenches group, good practices are the rule and DC cables are kept side by side, so the problem I mentioned hasn't come up much. I have seen "large loop" battery cables a couple of times in solar installs myself out on islands way down south. Also on boats/RV's/motor homes. Please keep the cable loop in mind when you do bench tests of inverters, as it may screw up the results and make it seem like there is something wrong with the inverter. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: "boB at midnitesolar.com" To: RE-wrenches , Date: 06/28/2015 10:30 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Bank to Inverter Wiring Sent by: "RE-wrenches" On 6/28/2015 9:20 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: >>>>I'm not an EE, but I can't see what difference twisting would make in the absence of a building/collapsing field as is normal with AC.<<<< It is little known that with the typical inverters that use the heavy power transformers, have a lot of AC 120 Hz (or 100 Hz for 50 Hz systems) current mixed in with that DC battery current. The AC output current reflects back to the input as ripple current. This is why you want to have at least short as possible Sbattery cable runs AND keep the wires as close together as possible. Twisting the battery cables may help a bit but that is probably overkill. The problem has to do with inductance in the battery cables. You can use as big of cable as you can fit in to reduce resistance, but that will not help to lower the inductance. The problems you can sometimes have with high inductance is that L-C resonance at the inverter can raise the peak voltages seen at the inverter input terminals and can be hard on the inverter. Then again, the high frequency, lighter weight inverters will typically keep most of that ripple inside, between the DC input and AC output and battery cable inductance will not be as much of a problem on the battery cables. boB Gudgel On 6/28/2015 9:20 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: As a matter of course I have always run the positive and negative conductors of high-current cable pairs together, but have never deliberately twisted them, and have never known of any related problems. The most obvious example of this would be 4/0 battery/inverter cables in a 24V system, with a 250A GJ-class breaker or (prior to that) a 300A or 400A Class T fuse. It's pretty tough to thread a twisted pair of 4/0 USE/RHH/RHW cables through a 2" elbow or LB from inverter enclosure to battery enclosure. I'm not an EE, but I can't see what difference twisting would make in the absence of a building/collapsing field as is normal with AC. I have twisted AC conductors together in the past when clients have expressed concerns about EMF from their equipment and wiring, but only AC. Allan Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell On 6/27/2015 2:40 AM, John wrote: That is why for years we have been twisting those leads around each other. I was told it was to cancel out the opposing fields on the wires, but for whatever the correct technical reason is, we have always twisted those heavy wires. John V. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Sent: Saturday, 27 June 2015 5:45 a.m. To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Bank to Inverter Wiring Hi: From time to time over the years I've come across systems where the routing of DC cables between the batteries and the inverter has been the cause of issues. I'm not referring to wire thickness or quality of terminations. For the purposes of this discussion, just assume that wire thickness and terminations are perfect. What I am referring to is the routing of the positive and negative battery cables. In particular, the loop area within the + and - cables as shown in the image below, The problem I've seen in systems with a large loop in the setup is that the inverter does not provide good surge power and can even go into low voltage shutdown during large surges. Recently this happened again and I wanted to get a better feel for it, so I did some math. For a cable length of about 12', the loop is an inductor which has a value of inductance of about 1 uH for side by side cables and as much as 6 uH for cables about 1 foot apart. This inductance is greatly multiplied by any ferrous metal in the loop and can easily be in the range of 10's to 100's of uH. Examples being cables which run in steel conduits or along the steel frame of a motor home. Inductance causes a voltage drop proportional to the rate at which the current is changing. To get an idea of how large that rate can be for typical inverters, I did surge tests with a 5kW inverter and found that the rate of change of current can be as high as 100A per milli-second or 100,000 Amps/second. Given that, the voltage drop of the wire inductance is then , Vdrop = (rate of change of current) x (inductance), Vdrop for 1 uH = (100,000 A/s) x (0.000001 H) = 0.1V Vdrop for 10 uH = (100,000 A/s) x (0.000001 H) = 1.0V Vdrop for 100 uH = (100,000 A/s) x (0.000001 H) = 10.0V clearly this is a problem. Have any of the wrenches had systems with this issue? If so, how often. JARMO ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Mon Jun 29 18:28:33 2015 From: Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com (Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 18:28:33 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Bank to Inverter Wiring In-Reply-To: <5591C134.7010003@solarray.com> References: <002101d0b0b4$fc5f24c0$f51d6e40$@gosolar.co.nz> <55901EB0.4070507@sindelarsolar.com> <5590D7EB.2090004@midnitesolar.com> <5591C134.7010003@solarray.com> Message-ID: Hi: I'm not sure how much trouble this has caused, so that's why I asked the question. With large battery banks, it is possible to end up with a cabling layout which has a potentially very large loop area as was the case at one of the sites where I saw problems. Here's a picture of the battery bank they had created. The + and - cables were not run side by side and the rack is made out of steel. The inverters did not like it until we ran the cables along the battery bank and then side by side. Once that was done, things worked as expected. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Ray Walters To: RE-wrenches , Date: 06/29/2015 03:05 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Bank to Inverter Wiring Sent by: "RE-wrenches" This is fascinating because while I knew the DC cables had an AC component, I never realized how much inductance played in the volt drop to the inverter. Thanks for bringing this to our attention Jarmo. Which brings up another question based on Benn's question: isn't the battery itself part of the inductive loop? and would the lead inside and steel cases act to increase the inductance? Should we consider changing battery layouts not just to shorten cable lengths, but to counter inductance in the batteries themselves? If needed, we could actually wire the batteries to "twist" by putting every other 2 v cell in the opposite row. My guess is that it wouldn't be worth it, but I've been wrong many times....... R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 6/29/2015 3:55 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: What about when you have the (+) and (-) terminals at opposite ends of a larger battery bank? Sure you can run the conductors side-by-side once they meet up on their way to the inverter, but would you consider the distance between the end terminals a "large loop"? Ideally the battery string is laid out so the end terminals are close together and close to the inverter, but this isn't always the case. Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 On Jun 29, 2015, at 10:28 AM, Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com wrote: Hi: >From the comments so far, it appears that within the wrenches group, good practices are the rule and DC cables are kept side by side, so the problem I mentioned hasn't come up much. I have seen "large loop" battery cables a couple of times in solar installs myself out on islands way down south. Also on boats/RV's/motor homes. Please keep the cable loop in mind when you do bench tests of inverters, as it may screw up the results and make it seem like there is something wrong with the inverter. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: "boB at midnitesolar.com" To: RE-wrenches , Date: 06/28/2015 10:30 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Bank to Inverter Wiring Sent by: "RE-wrenches" On 6/28/2015 9:20 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: >>>>I'm not an EE, but I can't see what difference twisting would make in the absence of a building/collapsing field as is normal with AC.<<<< It is little known that with the typical inverters that use the heavy power transformers, have a lot of AC 120 Hz (or 100 Hz for 50 Hz systems) current mixed in with that DC battery current. The AC output current reflects back to the input as ripple current. This is why you want to have at least short as possible Sbattery cable runs AND keep the wires as close together as possible. Twisting the battery cables may help a bit but that is probably overkill. The problem has to do with inductance in the battery cables. You can use as big of cable as you can fit in to reduce resistance, but that will not help to lower the inductance. The problems you can sometimes have with high inductance is that L-C resonance at the inverter can raise the peak voltages seen at the inverter input terminals and can be hard on the inverter. Then again, the high frequency, lighter weight inverters will typically keep most of that ripple inside, between the DC input and AC output and battery cable inductance will not be as much of a problem on the battery cables. boB Gudgel On 6/28/2015 9:20 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: As a matter of course I have always run the positive and negative conductors of high-current cable pairs together, but have never deliberately twisted them, and have never known of any related problems. The most obvious example of this would be 4/0 battery/inverter cables in a 24V system, with a 250A GJ-class breaker or (prior to that) a 300A or 400A Class T fuse. It's pretty tough to thread a twisted pair of 4/0 USE/RHH/RHW cables through a 2" elbow or LB from inverter enclosure to battery enclosure. I'm not an EE, but I can't see what difference twisting would make in the absence of a building/collapsing field as is normal with AC. I have twisted AC conductors together in the past when clients have expressed concerns about EMF from their equipment and wiring, but only AC. Allan Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell On 6/27/2015 2:40 AM, John wrote: That is why for years we have been twisting those leads around each other. I was told it was to cancel out the opposing fields on the wires, but for whatever the correct technical reason is, we have always twisted those heavy wires. John V. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Sent: Saturday, 27 June 2015 5:45 a.m. To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Bank to Inverter Wiring Hi: >From time to time over the years I've come across systems where the routing of DC cables between the batteries and the inverter has been the cause of issues. I'm not referring to wire thickness or quality of terminations. For the purposes of this discussion, just assume that wire thickness and terminations are perfect. What I am referring to is the routing of the positive and negative battery cables. In particular, the loop area within the + and - cables as shown in the image below, The problem I've seen in systems with a large loop in the setup is that the inverter does not provide good surge power and can even go into low voltage shutdown during large surges. Recently this happened again and I wanted to get a better feel for it, so I did some math. For a cable length of about 12', the loop is an inductor which has a value of inductance of about 1 uH for side by side cables and as much as 6 uH for cables about 1 foot apart. This inductance is greatly multiplied by any ferrous metal in the loop and can easily be in the range of 10's to 100's of uH. Examples being cables which run in steel conduits or along the steel frame of a motor home. Inductance causes a voltage drop proportional to the rate at which the current is changing. To get an idea of how large that rate can be for typical inverters, I did surge tests with a 5kW inverter and found that the rate of change of current can be as high as 100A per milli-second or 100,000 Amps/second. Given that, the voltage drop of the wire inductance is then , Vdrop = (rate of change of current) x (inductance), Vdrop for 1 uH = (100,000 A/s) x (0.000001 H) = 0.1V Vdrop for 10 uH = (100,000 A/s) x (0.000001 H) = 1.0V Vdrop for 100 uH = (100,000 A/s) x (0.000001 H) = 10.0V clearly this is a problem. Have any of the wrenches had systems with this issue? If so, how often. JARMO ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From frenergy at psln.com Mon Jun 29 19:50:07 2015 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 16:50:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rack hardware, galling References: <20130601003227.8A69B6B8227@homiemail-a52.g.dreamhost.com><00e101ce5e75$b6c03f00$2440bd00$@1scom.net><1370097670.35860.YahooMailNeo@web2803.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com><9F9D749A-4DB6-4A49-9B56-A5021C5B30C6@aeonsolar.com><1391622304.14269.YahooMailNeo@web2805.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com><024f01d0af9c$505fa9b0$f11efd10$@solarwindworks.com><559066C8.40207@solarray.com> <4DE275F1-FBC8-45DB-9181-9033D5C16F2B@skyfireenergy.com> Message-ID: <42F85A0F6D354525BD7512B98C0F145A@D8XG8YH1> For about the last year, DPW has been sending all the 5/16" nuts which work with their mid and end clamps plus the foot-to-rail connection, splices, etc with a polymer coating on the threads. Since then I have had zero issues with galling or backing nuts off for fine tuning alignments. If your rack manu is not doing this job for you, maybe its time for a phone call. Bill Feather River Solar Electric ----- Original Message ----- From: Benn Kilburn To: RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, June 29, 2015 10:03 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack Good points Ray. I always warn the crews of galling and to avoid spinning the SS hardware to fast. Another tip is to try to keep the SS hardware out of direct sun prior to using it. Kinetic tells me that their threaded hardware comes with a clear coat of anti-seize. Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 On Jun 28, 2015, at 3:27 PM, Ray Walters wrote: Besides your note that cordless impact drivers can over torque the clamps, also they spin the bolts too fast which can lead to spalling of the SS hardware. We now hand torque those connects. Finally, most torque specs are for lubricated bolts. We use anti-seize on the threads before torquing. Using a cordless impact driver and no lube can cause not only module damage but also clamp damage, and end up with clamps not actually securing the modules, because the bolts spalled out before fully clamping. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760On 6/28/2015 3:06 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: Chris, It sounds (to me) that you are describing the bonding "tooth" dug through the aluminum frame and into the glass? or at least compressed the frame enough to break the glass? If that is the case then i'm betting that the clamp bolt was way over-torqued. You need to check the recommended tightening torque for the module and for the racking system you are using. For example, what we are using these days, Kinetic, the tightening torque for mid and end clamps is 12 ft-lb and here are some recommended clamping torques from some different module mfgrs.... Conergy 8 NM - 6 ft-lb Hanwha 5 NM - 3.7 ft-lb JA Solar 18-24 NM - 13-18 ft-lb These likely vary based on the construction of the module frame. I've also found that some module mfgrs do not list recommended tightening torques in their install manuals, so best to use discretion. We had a module break after clamping it down. The crew described it as 'putting the module in place, clamping it down and turning around to grab the next module and hearing a 'crack' followed by the crackling glass sound (if you have ever heard a module break, the crackling sound can last for a few minutes). The break pattern in the glass seemed to focus on a particular mid clamp. I used a torque wrench, set at around 10 ft-lb and checked all the mid-clamp bolts, increasing the torque setting by a few ft-lb each time until it finally turned a bolt instead of clicking. I found that most of the bolts were close to 30 ft-lb and the one that appeared to break the glass was about 34 ft-lb. Suffice to say, we were getting carried away with tightening using cordless impact drivers. At that point i and the rest of the crew started using the torque wrench as we were going along until we had a better feel for what was the proper torque. (i've done this before, but it is something that needs to be self "re-calibrated" often. Benn Kilburn CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc 6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7 P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com On Thu, Jun 25, 2015 at 5:11 PM, Chris Worcester wrote: Hi Jason, Have you or others been using the new UniRac SM mid and end clamps with the integrated bonding yet? My concern is the “Stainless steel Midclamp points, 2 per module, pierce module frame anodization to bond module to module through clamp.” We had an MSI Alpha + self-bonding midclamp shatter the glass on an LG 280 last fall, as the factory set point was sticking out too far, so as it was being tightened down, on top of the module the point dug through the module’s top frame hitting the glass, shattering it. I do wonder if there are any issues with this “point” on the UniRac midclamps potential for doing the same damage? Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP Certified PV Installer Office 530-582-4503 Cell 530-448-9692 Fax 530-582-4603 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2015 1:13 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack That decision was based on our distribution network offering better pricing on Unirac, and engineers being comfortable with it. Now with the integrated grounding from Unirac, I can't see moving away from it again barring a significant cost benefit. It also stacks and stocks easier than the Ironridge rails. On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 5:55 PM, Dana Brandt wrote: Hi Jason, We've used Unirac for years but have been contemplating Ironridge. I'm curious what your experience was and why you went back to Unirac? Anyone else have input on best racking systems for flush-mounted residential systems on comp roof? Thanks, Dana Dana Brandt Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC www.ecotechenergy.com dana at ecotechenergy.com 360.318.7646 On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:09 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: By Snap N Rack, you mean Sun Run... http://cleantechnica.com/2014/02/05/sunrun-acquires-rec-solars-residential-business-aee-solar-snapnrack-means/ I'm curious if these vertical integrators will still make their acquired brands available to small dealers through distribution. When SolarCity snatched up Zep, I had concerns about being able to service or add onto existing Zep systems we installed. That's definitely a concern going forward, and reason to perhaps stick with the most compatible racking solutions available. We used IronRidge for a while, which is largely compatible with Unirac, but now we're back on the Unirac bandwagon. Interesting times... Jason Szumlanski ​Fafco Solar​ On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Max Balchowsky wrote: We have been using Snap N' Rack for a while, Have lots of installs in Hawaii - so far no problems, I like the convenience of the design for snapping in the slider nut in mid rail, and also the ability to install the panels flush with the end of the rails…. Max Balchowsky Design Engineer SEE Systems 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 760-403-6810 "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Allen Frishman To: RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, February 5, 2014 6:17 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack I am curious about the mid clamps on the snapnrack. The flange that rests on top of the solar panel frame is so small ~ 3/16". Anyone experience any problems with these failing in a big storm? With solar panel frames not being square it is nice to have a little extra to grab - I am always curious as to why these clips are made with such a small area to hold the panels down. All feedback on these clips is appreciated. Al Frishman AeonSolar (917) 699-6641 - cell (888) 460-2867 www.aeonsolar.com On Jun 1, 2013, at 10:41 AM, Max Balchowsky wrote: Have installed last three systems (35Kw)with snap n rack. love it.... Max Balchowsky Design Engineer SEE Systems 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 760-403-6810 "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Solarguy To: 'RE-wrenches' Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 10:11 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack The only complaint with the Snapnrack rails is the thin wall can easily be distorted. This will allow the nut to drop out of its groove. Love the universal end clamps but have learned to assemble every one to check for proper fit before getting on the roof. Jim Duncan -----Original Message----- From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 7:32 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack Hello Wrenches, How would you rate the SnapNrack mounting systems against Unirac and other mounting systems? 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URL: From Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Mon Jun 29 18:06:47 2015 From: Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com (Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 18:06:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Bank to Inverter Wiring In-Reply-To: References: <002101d0b0b4$fc5f24c0$f51d6e40$@gosolar.co.nz> <55901EB0.4070507@sindelarsolar.com> <5590D7EB.2090004@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: Hi: It's not possible to have no loop area at all, but cables should be run in ways to minimize the loop area. If you run the + or - along the side of the batteries for example, then that has the effect of minimizing the total loop. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Benn Kilburn To: RE-wrenches , Date: 06/29/2015 02:55 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Bank to Inverter Wiring Sent by: "RE-wrenches" What about when you have the (+) and (-) terminals at opposite ends of a larger battery bank? Sure you can run the conductors side-by-side once they meet up on their way to the inverter, but would you consider the distance between the end terminals a "large loop"? Ideally the battery string is laid out so the end terminals are close together and close to the inverter, but this isn't always the case. Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 On Jun 29, 2015, at 10:28 AM, Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com wrote: Hi: >From the comments so far, it appears that within the wrenches group, good practices are the rule and DC cables are kept side by side, so the problem I mentioned hasn't come up much. I have seen "large loop" battery cables a couple of times in solar installs myself out on islands way down south. Also on boats/RV's/motor homes. Please keep the cable loop in mind when you do bench tests of inverters, as it may screw up the results and make it seem like there is something wrong with the inverter. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: "boB at midnitesolar.com" To: RE-wrenches , Date: 06/28/2015 10:30 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Bank to Inverter Wiring Sent by: "RE-wrenches" On 6/28/2015 9:20 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: >>>>I'm not an EE, but I can't see what difference twisting would make in the absence of a building/collapsing field as is normal with AC.<<<< It is little known that with the typical inverters that use the heavy power transformers, have a lot of AC 120 Hz (or 100 Hz for 50 Hz systems) current mixed in with that DC battery current. The AC output current reflects back to the input as ripple current. This is why you want to have at least short as possible Sbattery cable runs AND keep the wires as close together as possible. Twisting the battery cables may help a bit but that is probably overkill. The problem has to do with inductance in the battery cables. You can use as big of cable as you can fit in to reduce resistance, but that will not help to lower the inductance. The problems you can sometimes have with high inductance is that L-C resonance at the inverter can raise the peak voltages seen at the inverter input terminals and can be hard on the inverter. Then again, the high frequency, lighter weight inverters will typically keep most of that ripple inside, between the DC input and AC output and battery cable inductance will not be as much of a problem on the battery cables. boB Gudgel On 6/28/2015 9:20 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: As a matter of course I have always run the positive and negative conductors of high-current cable pairs together, but have never deliberately twisted them, and have never known of any related problems. The most obvious example of this would be 4/0 battery/inverter cables in a 24V system, with a 250A GJ-class breaker or (prior to that) a 300A or 400A Class T fuse. It's pretty tough to thread a twisted pair of 4/0 USE/RHH/RHW cables through a 2" elbow or LB from inverter enclosure to battery enclosure. I'm not an EE, but I can't see what difference twisting would make in the absence of a building/collapsing field as is normal with AC. I have twisted AC conductors together in the past when clients have expressed concerns about EMF from their equipment and wiring, but only AC. Allan Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell On 6/27/2015 2:40 AM, John wrote: That is why for years we have been twisting those leads around each other. I was told it was to cancel out the opposing fields on the wires, but for whatever the correct technical reason is, we have always twisted those heavy wires. John V. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Sent: Saturday, 27 June 2015 5:45 a.m. To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Bank to Inverter Wiring Hi: >From time to time over the years I've come across systems where the routing of DC cables between the batteries and the inverter has been the cause of issues. I'm not referring to wire thickness or quality of terminations. For the purposes of this discussion, just assume that wire thickness and terminations are perfect. What I am referring to is the routing of the positive and negative battery cables. In particular, the loop area within the + and - cables as shown in the image below, The problem I've seen in systems with a large loop in the setup is that the inverter does not provide good surge power and can even go into low voltage shutdown during large surges. Recently this happened again and I wanted to get a better feel for it, so I did some math. For a cable length of about 12', the loop is an inductor which has a value of inductance of about 1 uH for side by side cables and as much as 6 uH for cables about 1 foot apart. This inductance is greatly multiplied by any ferrous metal in the loop and can easily be in the range of 10's to 100's of uH. Examples being cables which run in steel conduits or along the steel frame of a motor home. Inductance causes a voltage drop proportional to the rate at which the current is changing. To get an idea of how large that rate can be for typical inverters, I did surge tests with a 5kW inverter and found that the rate of change of current can be as high as 100A per milli-second or 100,000 Amps/second. Given that, the voltage drop of the wire inductance is then , Vdrop = (rate of change of current) x (inductance), Vdrop for 1 uH = (100,000 A/s) x (0.000001 H) = 0.1V Vdrop for 10 uH = (100,000 A/s) x (0.000001 H) = 1.0V Vdrop for 100 uH = (100,000 A/s) x (0.000001 H) = 10.0V clearly this is a problem. Have any of the wrenches had systems with this issue? If so, how often. JARMO ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tump at swnl.net Tue Jun 30 05:53:10 2015 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 05:53:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Bank to Inverter Wiring In-Reply-To: References: <002101d0b0b4$fc5f24c0$f51d6e40$@gosolar.co.nz> <55901EB0.4070507@sindelarsolar.com> <5590D7EB.2090004@midnitesolar.com> <5591C134.7010003@solarray.com> Message-ID: This is a good representation of poor battery design. Reducing the # of strings by increasing the capacity of the battery should always be considered. Yes this is a cheap way to go but in the long run this type of install can be very expensive. Without someone as experienced as Jarmo, the installer may never have figured this out. LESS STRINGS & more Ahours = less interconnects & potential for inductance and gives one far better performance charging & discharging. One bad cell and one is chasing their tail for quite a while w/ this install. On Jun 29, 2015, at 6:28 PM, Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com wrote: > Hi: > > I'm not sure how much trouble this has caused, so that's why I asked the question. With large battery banks, it is possible to end up with a cabling layout which has a potentially very large loop area as was the case at one of the sites where I saw problems. Here's a picture of the battery bank they had created. > > > > The + and - cables were not run side by side and the rack is made out of steel. The inverters did not like it until we ran the cables along the battery bank and then side by side. Once that was done, things worked as expected. > > JARMO > _____________________________________________________________________________________ > > Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer > Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 > Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 > > > > > > *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail > > > > From: Ray Walters > To: RE-wrenches , > Date: 06/29/2015 03:05 PM > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Bank to Inverter Wiring > Sent by: "RE-wrenches" > > > > > This is fascinating because while I knew the DC cables had an AC component, I never realized how much inductance played in the volt drop to the inverter. Thanks for bringing this to our attention Jarmo. > Which brings up another question based on Benn's question: isn't the battery itself part of the inductive loop? and would the lead inside and steel cases act to increase the inductance? Should we consider changing battery layouts not just to shorten cable lengths, but to counter inductance in the batteries themselves? If needed, we could actually wire the batteries to "twist" by putting every other 2 v cell in the opposite row. > My guess is that it wouldn't be worth it, but I've been wrong many times....... > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > On 6/29/2015 3:55 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > What about when you have the (+) and (-) terminals at opposite ends of a larger battery bank? Sure you can run the conductors side-by-side once they meet up on their way to the inverter, but would you consider the distance between the end terminals a "large loop"? > Ideally the battery string is laid out so the end terminals are close together and close to the inverter, but this isn't always the case. > > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy Inc. > 780-906-7807 > > > On Jun 29, 2015, at 10:28 AM, Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com wrote: > > Hi: > > From the comments so far, it appears that within the wrenches group, good practices are the rule and DC cables are kept side by side, so the problem I mentioned hasn't come up much. > > I have seen "large loop" battery cables a couple of times in solar installs myself out on islands way down south. Also on boats/RV's/motor homes. > > Please keep the cable loop in mind when you do bench tests of inverters, as it may screw up the results and make it seem like there is something wrong with the inverter. > > JARMO > _____________________________________________________________________________________ > > Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer > Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 > Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 > > > > > > > *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail > > > From: "boB at midnitesolar.com" > To: RE-wrenches , > Date: 06/28/2015 10:30 PM > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Bank to Inverter Wiring > Sent by: "RE-wrenches" > > > > > > > On 6/28/2015 9:20 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > >>>>I'm not an EE, but I can't see what difference twisting would make in > the absence of a building/collapsing field as is normal with AC.<<<< > > It is little known that with the typical inverters that use the heavy power transformers, > have a lot of AC 120 Hz (or 100 Hz for 50 Hz systems) current mixed in with that DC battery current. > > The AC output current reflects back to the input as ripple current. This is why you want to > have at least short as possible Sbattery cable runs AND keep the wires as close together as possible. > > Twisting the battery cables may help a bit but that is probably overkill. > > The problem has to do with inductance in the battery cables. You can use as big of cable > as you can fit in to reduce resistance, but that will not help to lower the inductance. > The problems you can sometimes have with high inductance is that L-C resonance at the > inverter can raise the peak voltages seen at the inverter input terminals and can be hard on > the inverter. > > Then again, the high frequency, lighter weight inverters will typically keep most of that ripple > inside, between the DC input and AC output and battery cable inductance will not be as much > of a problem on the battery cables. > > boB Gudgel > > > > > On 6/28/2015 9:20 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > As a matter of course I have always run the positive and negative conductors of high-current cable pairs together, but have never deliberately twisted them, and have never known of any related problems. > The most obvious example of this would be 4/0 battery/inverter cables in a 24V system, with a 250A GJ-class breaker or (prior to that) a 300A or 400A Class T fuse. It's pretty tough to thread a twisted pair of 4/0 USE/RHH/RHW cables through a 2" elbow or LB from inverter enclosure to battery enclosure. > I'm not an EE, but I can't see what difference twisting would make in the absence of a building/collapsing field as is normal with AC. > I have twisted AC conductors together in the past when clients have expressed concerns about EMF from their equipment and wiring, but only AC. > Allan > Allan Sindelar > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > 505 780-2738 cell > > > On 6/27/2015 2:40 AM, John wrote: > That is why for years we have been twisting those leads around each other. I was told it was to cancel out the opposing fields on the wires, but for whatever the correct technical reason is, we have always twisted those heavy wires. John V. > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com > Sent: Saturday, 27 June 2015 5:45 a.m. > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Bank to Inverter Wiring > > Hi: > > From time to time over the years I've come across systems where the routing of DC cables between the batteries and the inverter has been the cause of issues. > > I'm not referring to wire thickness or quality of terminations. For the purposes of this discussion, just assume that wire thickness and terminations are perfect. > > What I am referring to is the routing of the positive and negative battery cables. In particular, the loop area within the + and - cables as shown in the image below, > > The problem I've seen in systems with a large loop in the setup is that the inverter does not provide good surge power and can even go into low voltage shutdown during large surges. > > Recently this happened again and I wanted to get a better feel for it, so I did some math. > > For a cable length of about 12', the loop is an inductor which has a value of inductance of about 1 uH for side by side cables and as much as 6 uH for cables about 1 foot apart. > > This inductance is greatly multiplied by any ferrous metal in the loop and can easily be in the range of 10's to 100's of uH. Examples being cables which run in steel conduits or along the steel frame of a motor home. > > Inductance causes a voltage drop proportional to the rate at which the current is changing. To get an idea of how large that rate can be for typical inverters, I did surge tests with a 5kW inverter and found that the rate of change of current can be as high as 100A per milli-second or 100,000 Amps/second. > > Given that, the voltage drop of the wire inductance is then , Vdrop = (rate of change of current) x (inductance), > > Vdrop for 1 uH = (100,000 A/s) x (0.000001 H) = 0.1V > Vdrop for 10 uH = (100,000 A/s) x (0.000001 H) = 1.0V > Vdrop for 100 uH = (100,000 A/s) x (0.000001 H) = 10.0V clearly this is a problem. > > Have any of the wrenches had systems with this issue? If so, how often. > > > JARMO > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. > _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. > _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tom at ecs-solar.com Tue Jun 30 06:40:33 2015 From: tom at ecs-solar.com (Tom Lane) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 06:40:33 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolaEdge Outback AC Coupling Message-ID: Has anyone AC Coupled an Outback System with SolarEdge ? I would like to see a wiring diagram and know what components from Outback you used with SolarEdge . I have been told variously that SolarEdge does not approve AC Coupling and that they have approve it , depending on who I get on the phone . SolarEdge and Outback have no official diagrams or components list that I can find . I would like some help here as we are in Hurricane season in Gator Land ! Sent from my iPad From frenergy at psln.com Tue Jun 30 00:16:36 2015 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 21:16:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mitsu 170's References: <002101d0b0b4$fc5f24c0$f51d6e40$@gosolar.co.nz> <55901EB0.4070507@sindelarsolar.com> <5590D7EB.2090004@midnitesolar.com> <5591C134.7010003@solarray.com> <5591CF66.8050708@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: <24CA29F970D64BF58D9C28A6D094B576@D8XG8YH1> Wrenches, I'm trying to find at least 2 Mitsubishi 170's (PV-MF170EB3). Please contact off-list. Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Tue Jun 30 04:04:42 2015 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 10:04:42 +0200 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solaredge Storedge In-Reply-To: <00c801d0b27b$fc5bf1b0$f513d510$@vtsolar.com> References: <00c801d0b27b$fc5bf1b0$f513d510$@vtsolar.com> Message-ID: Just to add a little perspective on the development of inverter based storage, I have just attended InterSolar Europe in Munich. Every inverter manufacturer is showing some type of add-on battery storage system. SolarEdge was huge, they had the largest visibility of the inverter manufacturers. The reason for the rush to develop storage is the change in the European market. Grid tied solar on a large scale is largely dead in Europe. There were a number of panel discussions about where the focus should be, and all the module and inverter manufacturers were pretty glum. The only perceived area of growth is self consumption, and to maximize that, inverter manufacturers need to have storage. So the aim is not to provide grid independent systems, the design goal is to use all the power production in house and to avoid exports to the grid, while being grid-tied. So the development of these products is not US focussed, which explains why the US distribution people don't know what's going on. On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 4:57 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: > Hello, > > Anyone have detailed info on the Storedge battery-compatible system from > Solaredge? I only found a brochure on their website. Apparently batteries > can be added to a new or existing Solaredge inverter (the brochure says > they have partnered with Tesla’s Powerwall) for backup power. They call it > “DC-coupling”. > > > > *Kirk Herander* > > *VT Solar, LLC * > > *Proven PV provider since 1991* > > *www.vermontsolarnow.com * > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > 802.863.1202 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarworks at gmail.com Tue Jun 30 09:45:18 2015 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal Khalsa) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 06:45:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolaEdge Outback AC Coupling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tom....I haven't AC coupled Solaredge and Outback, but I have AC Coupled Outback with various other inverter manufacturers and their Radian AC Coupled Load center will work with any AC source....It doesn't directly communicate with any other inverter but its remote operated circuit breakers allow it to disconnect AC Power from any other inverter when batteries reach a preset voltage....It is not as elegant as a sunny island/sunnyboy system because it doesn't provide multistage charging buy it is easy to implement and install.....You should be able to find all the information on the Outback Radian site. You would need the GSLC-AC-120/240 load center and it comes pre wired with the remote operated circuit breaker which makes it a breeze to install.... Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-218-0201 m 541-299-0402 o On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 3:40 AM, Tom Lane wrote: > Has anyone AC Coupled an Outback System with SolarEdge ? I would like to > see a wiring diagram and know what components from Outback you used with > SolarEdge . I have been told variously that SolarEdge does not approve AC > Coupling and that they have approve it , depending on who I get on the > phone . SolarEdge and Outback have no official diagrams or components list > that I can find . I would like some help here as we are in Hurricane season > in Gator Land ! > > Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sunengser at gmail.com Tue Jun 30 12:01:07 2015 From: sunengser at gmail.com (Bill Hoffer) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 09:01:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolaEdge Outback AC Coupling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kirpal Actually the Radian system does adjust the battery voltage point that it disconnects the grid inverter based on the stage of the charge timers using the 3 stage inverter charger set points. The FNDC will also over ride the timers if all fully charged parameters are met. It has the advantage of being able to safely use a back up generator in the system and will physically disconnect from grid and the AC coupled inverter before connecting the generator. So there are some advantages over a SMA AC coupled system too! Even though there is no official application notes on AC coupling a Radian and Solaredge, I have seen it done with good results. The nice thing about an AC coupled Radian is it should work with any grid tie inverter system out there. Bill On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 6:45 AM, Kirpal Khalsa wrote: > Tom....I haven't AC coupled Solaredge and Outback, but I have AC Coupled > Outback with various other inverter manufacturers and their Radian AC > Coupled Load center will work with any AC source....It doesn't directly > communicate with any other inverter but its remote operated circuit > breakers allow it to disconnect AC Power from any other inverter when > batteries reach a preset voltage....It is not as elegant as a sunny > island/sunnyboy system because it doesn't provide multistage charging buy > it is easy to implement and install.....You should be able to find all the > information on the Outback Radian site. You would need the GSLC-AC-120/240 > load center and it comes pre wired with the remote operated circuit breaker > which makes it a breeze to install.... > > > Sunny Regards, > Kirpal Khalsa > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Oregon Solarworks LLC > www.oregonsolarworks.com > 541-218-0201 m > 541-299-0402 o > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 3:40 AM, Tom Lane wrote: > >> Has anyone AC Coupled an Outback System with SolarEdge ? I would like to >> see a wiring diagram and know what components from Outback you used with >> SolarEdge . I have been told variously that SolarEdge does not approve AC >> Coupling and that they have approve it , depending on who I get on the >> phone . SolarEdge and Outback have no official diagrams or components list >> that I can find . I would like some help here as we are in Hurricane season >> in Gator Land ! >> >> Sent from my iPad >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- William Hoffer 161 SE Fourth Ave P.O. Box 1823 White Salmon, WA 98672-1823 sunengser at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kjenergysystems at gmail.com Tue Jun 30 21:54:45 2015 From: kjenergysystems at gmail.com (Kurt Johnsen) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 21:54:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SnapNrack - Anti-seize In-Reply-To: References: <20130601003227.8A69B6B8227@homiemail-a52.g.dreamhost.com> <00e101ce5e75$b6c03f00$2440bd00$@1scom.net> <1370097670.35860.YahooMailNeo@web2803.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <9F9D749A-4DB6-4A49-9B56-A5021C5B30C6@aeonsolar.com> <1391622304.14269.YahooMailNeo@web2805.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <024f01d0af9c$505fa9b0$f11efd10$@solarwindworks.com> <559066C8.40207@solarray.com> Message-ID: Thank you everyone for all of the great responses on anti-seize methods! Kurt Johnsen On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 3:00 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems < larry at starlightsolar.com> wrote: > You can use a thin sponge soaked anti-seize and just touch the threads to > the sponge. Since it only takes a minute amount of lube to prevent galling, > you can prep all your bolts in the shop and bag them. Zip lock the sponge > for the next job. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > On Jun 29, 2015, at 10:05 AM, Kurt Johnsen > wrote: > > Esteemed Wrenches, > Does anyone know of a less tedious and messy way to lube the bolts than > squeeze tube anti-seize? > > My 2 cents; I believe that the torque specs for an engineered assembly are > put in there for a reason. Ignoring them puts the installer on the hook for > any failures. Aside from being the right thing to do, using torque wrenches > helps avoid assuming unnecessary financial risk which my thin margins > cannot afford. > > Kurt Johnsen > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarworks at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 08:59:48 2015 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal Khalsa) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 05:59:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolaEdge Outback AC Coupling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Bill...my understanding of the Outback AC coupled solution is that it does not offer multi stage charging from the grid tied inverter as it does not have any way to regulate the amount of power coming in from that inverter...based on the state of charge of the batteries and at pre set voltage set points it can operate the remote breaker but it does not have the ability to taper the amount of in coming power from the grid tied inverter.. This is why the frequency shift AC coupling such as found with SMA and others is a nice solution as the amount of incoming power from the grid tied inverters is regulated allowing for healthy multi stage charging. Another thing to consider if using the Outback Ac coupled solution is that your DC coupling options becomes limited in the same load center.... Cheers Kirpal On Jun 30, 2015 9:01 AM, "Bill Hoffer" wrote: > Kirpal > > Actually the Radian system does adjust the battery voltage point that it > disconnects the grid inverter based on the stage of the charge timers using > the 3 stage inverter charger set points. The FNDC will also over ride the > timers if all fully charged parameters are met. It has the advantage of > being able to safely use a back up generator in the system and will > physically disconnect from grid and the AC coupled inverter before > connecting the generator. So there are some advantages over a SMA AC > coupled system too! > > Even though there is no official application notes on AC coupling a Radian > and Solaredge, I have seen it done with good results. The nice thing about > an AC coupled Radian is it should work with any grid tie inverter system > out there. > > Bill > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 6:45 AM, Kirpal Khalsa > wrote: > >> Tom....I haven't AC coupled Solaredge and Outback, but I have AC Coupled >> Outback with various other inverter manufacturers and their Radian AC >> Coupled Load center will work with any AC source....It doesn't directly >> communicate with any other inverter but its remote operated circuit >> breakers allow it to disconnect AC Power from any other inverter when >> batteries reach a preset voltage....It is not as elegant as a sunny >> island/sunnyboy system because it doesn't provide multistage charging buy >> it is easy to implement and install.....You should be able to find all the >> information on the Outback Radian site. You would need the GSLC-AC-120/240 >> load center and it comes pre wired with the remote operated circuit breaker >> which makes it a breeze to install.... >> >> >> Sunny Regards, >> Kirpal Khalsa >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> Oregon Solarworks LLC >> www.oregonsolarworks.com >> 541-218-0201 m >> 541-299-0402 o >> >> On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 3:40 AM, Tom Lane wrote: >> >>> Has anyone AC Coupled an Outback System with SolarEdge ? I would like to >>> see a wiring diagram and know what components from Outback you used with >>> SolarEdge . I have been told variously that SolarEdge does not approve AC >>> Coupling and that they have approve it , depending on who I get on the >>> phone . SolarEdge and Outback have no official diagrams or components list >>> that I can find . I would like some help here as we are in Hurricane season >>> in Gator Land ! >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > William Hoffer > 161 SE Fourth Ave > P.O. Box 1823 > White Salmon, WA 98672-1823 > sunengser at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rebekah.hren at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 10:00:34 2015 From: rebekah.hren at gmail.com (Rebekah Hren) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 08:00:34 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solaredge Storedge In-Reply-To: <01ec01d0b2a2$ef1bd890$cd5389b0$@vtsolar.com> References: <00c801d0b27b$fc5bf1b0$f513d510$@vtsolar.com> <559194C6.9060007@midnitesolar.com> <01ec01d0b2a2$ef1bd890$cd5389b0$@vtsolar.com> Message-ID: I hear you loud and clear Kirk. On the one hand it is pretty cool to see so much interest in battery-based systems, on the other hand the level of misinformation being spread around is frightening and time-consuming to combat. There is a Bill McKibbon article in the New Yorker this week where he unfortunately, loudly and clearly, repeats the Tesla marketing spiel. He reports from the CEO of Green Mountain Power - "Powell was excited by its low price: three thousand dollars, far below what analysts had predicted, and low enough that her company could immediately begin installing it for customers, especially those who wanted backup electricity in case a snow-storm disabled the grid." Here's a link the article: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/06/29/power-to-the-people The more I re-read this the angrier I get, and honestly it would be awesome to send a group co-signed letter to the New Yorker refuting this inanity and telling Bill M to do his homework. Send me an email off-list if anyone wants to follow-up. Rebekah Hren On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 1:36 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: > Here’s the reply I just got back from Solaredge: > > > > “As this stands ATM Tesla has only announced the product, not finished > developing it. As Tesla finalizes it the details will become available. > Please click StorEdge on the bottom right of the web page and sign up for > the announcements as they come available. Furthermore all of our inverters > are compatible with this announcement “ > > > > I get a funny vibe about all this hype / vaporware. Announced, but still > in development. Kind of like the Powerwall itself. The Powerwall is > supposedly sold out through 2016, with $800 mil in advance orders, and no > product being shipped. Are there any Powerwalls in operation anywhere in > the real world? Even in beta test? > > > > Available tech info on both Powerwall and Storedge is basically zero. Too > bad nonsense marketing like this causes some potential customers to delay > their commitment to install a system. > > > > *Kirk Herander* > > *VT Solar, LLC * > > *Proven PV provider since 1991* > > *www.vermontsolarnow.com * > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > 802.863.1202 > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *boB at midnitesolar.com > *Sent:* Monday, June 29, 2015 2:56 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Solaredge Storedge > > > > > I would think that Solar City would know all about this. > > Or, maybe I wouldn't ? > > boB > > > > On 6/29/2015 11:06 AM, Rebekah Hren wrote: > > I don't have any info, but the StorEdge diagram is confusing to me when it > says "energy independence." I can see a simple compatibility between the > Powerwall DC voltage (300 to 400VDC) and the SolarEdge operating voltage, > ~350VDC, and I can also see how this setup could be used to maximize > self-consumption (a grid-zero type system). > > > > What is confusing is the AC output of the inverter - it is not diagrammed > as a multimode system, which is what "energy independence" would indicate > to me. The brochure is not showing an AC loads panel that can be isolated > from the grid, or any kind of separate transfer switch - which would be > necessary for a multimode system. > > I would be curious to hear what the technical requirements will be to > install the system as a multimode system, if that is indeed a possibility - > which it may not be. > > > > > > Rebekah > > > > On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 8:57 AM, Kirk Herander wrote: > > Hello, > > Anyone have detailed info on the Storedge battery-compatible system from > Solaredge? I only found a brochure on their website. Apparently batteries > can be added to a new or existing Solaredge inverter (the brochure says > they have partnered with Tesla’s Powerwall) for backup power. They call it > “DC-coupling”. > > > > *Kirk Herander* > > *VT Solar, LLC * > > *Proven PV provider since 1991* > > *www.vermontsolarnow.com * > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > 802.863.1202 > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Tel: 336.266.8800 NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 NC Licensed Electrical Contractor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Wed Jul 1 15:01:35 2015 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 09:01:35 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1000-volt circuits Message-ID: <003301d0b430$5b688230$12398690$@com> Hola amigos y amigas. We're doing our first projects here on the Big Island of Hawaii using 1000-volt rated inverters. The AHJ is informing us that those electricians working on these circuits require training specific to working on 600+ volt circuits. Anyone know of such training(s)? As in where to go to find/get such training? Mahalo, marco -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed Jul 1 15:56:32 2015 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 15:56:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolaEdge Outback AC Coupling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000001d0b438$07ffd780$17ff8680$@burt@glbcc.com> Tom, I have had a few email exchanges and extensive discussions in person with this engineer, and the Solar Edge position is that they do not support AC coupling of their systems with anything. ------------------------------------------------- Luc Collin | Field Application Engineer - US East SolarEdge Technologies, Inc. Kingston, NY Office: +1 510.458.0145 Mobile: +1 845.481.0599 [best number to call] Email: Luc.Collin at solaredge.com Tech Support: +1 877-360-5292 Tech Support email: ussupport at solaredge.com ---------------------------------------------------- Your mileage may vary. -Glenn -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Tom Lane Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 6:41 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolaEdge Outback AC Coupling Has anyone AC Coupled an Outback System with SolarEdge ? I would like to see a wiring diagram and know what components from Outback you used with SolarEdge . I have been told variously that SolarEdge does not approve AC Coupling and that they have approve it , depending on who I get on the phone . SolarEdge and Outback have no official diagrams or components list that I can find . I would like some help here as we are in Hurricane season in Gator Land ! Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From sunengser at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 16:04:06 2015 From: sunengser at gmail.com (Bill Hoffer) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 13:04:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolaEdge Outback AC Coupling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kirpal True there is no current control, but more like a rough Pulse width modulated control through motorized breaker that does maintain the proper voltage level for a multistage charging at Bulk Absorb and Float settings. Bill On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 5:59 AM, Kirpal Khalsa wrote: > Hey Bill...my understanding of the Outback AC coupled solution is that it > does not offer multi stage charging from the grid tied inverter as it does > not have any way to regulate the amount of power coming in from that > inverter...based on the state of charge of the batteries and at pre set > voltage set points it can operate the remote breaker but it does not have > the ability to taper the amount of in coming power from the grid tied > inverter.. This is why the frequency shift AC coupling such as found with > SMA and others is a nice solution as the amount of incoming power from the > grid tied inverters is regulated allowing for healthy multi stage > charging. > Another thing to consider if using the Outback Ac coupled solution is that > your DC coupling options becomes limited in the same load center.... > Cheers > Kirpal > On Jun 30, 2015 9:01 AM, "Bill Hoffer" wrote: > >> Kirpal >> >> Actually the Radian system does adjust the battery voltage point that it >> disconnects the grid inverter based on the stage of the charge timers using >> the 3 stage inverter charger set points. The FNDC will also over ride the >> timers if all fully charged parameters are met. It has the advantage of >> being able to safely use a back up generator in the system and will >> physically disconnect from grid and the AC coupled inverter before >> connecting the generator. So there are some advantages over a SMA AC >> coupled system too! >> >> Even though there is no official application notes on AC coupling a >> Radian and Solaredge, I have seen it done with good results. The nice >> thing about an AC coupled Radian is it should work with any grid tie >> inverter system out there. >> >> Bill >> >> On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 6:45 AM, Kirpal Khalsa >> wrote: >> >>> Tom....I haven't AC coupled Solaredge and Outback, but I have AC Coupled >>> Outback with various other inverter manufacturers and their Radian AC >>> Coupled Load center will work with any AC source....It doesn't directly >>> communicate with any other inverter but its remote operated circuit >>> breakers allow it to disconnect AC Power from any other inverter when >>> batteries reach a preset voltage....It is not as elegant as a sunny >>> island/sunnyboy system because it doesn't provide multistage charging buy >>> it is easy to implement and install.....You should be able to find all the >>> information on the Outback Radian site. You would need the GSLC-AC-120/240 >>> load center and it comes pre wired with the remote operated circuit breaker >>> which makes it a breeze to install.... >>> >>> >>> Sunny Regards, >>> Kirpal Khalsa >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>> Oregon Solarworks LLC >>> www.oregonsolarworks.com >>> 541-218-0201 m >>> 541-299-0402 o >>> >>> On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 3:40 AM, Tom Lane wrote: >>> >>>> Has anyone AC Coupled an Outback System with SolarEdge ? I would like >>>> to see a wiring diagram and know what components from Outback you used with >>>> SolarEdge . I have been told variously that SolarEdge does not approve AC >>>> Coupling and that they have approve it , depending on who I get on the >>>> phone . SolarEdge and Outback have no official diagrams or components list >>>> that I can find . I would like some help here as we are in Hurricane season >>>> in Gator Land ! >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> William Hoffer >> 161 SE Fourth Ave >> P.O. Box 1823 >> White Salmon, WA 98672-1823 >> sunengser at gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- William Hoffer 161 SE Fourth Ave P.O. Box 1823 White Salmon, WA 98672-1823 sunengser at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 15:51:20 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 09:51:20 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1000-volt circuits In-Reply-To: <003301d0b430$5b688230$12398690$@com> References: <003301d0b430$5b688230$12398690$@com> Message-ID: Marco Does not sound like you have the correct license, this is as per state of Hawaii its all in the last line, everything from wire connectors and boxes may need additional ratings as well Jerry NABCEP 051112-169 C-63 High voltage electrical contractor To place, install, erect, or connect any electrical wires, fixtures, appliances, apparatus, conduits, raceways, and to do trenching, backfilling, patching, and surface restoration in connection with the installation of conduits and lines which transmit, transform, or utilize electrical energy of more than 600 volts phase to phase On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 9:01 AM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: > Hola amigos y amigas. > > > > We’re doing our first projects here on the Big Island of Hawaii using > 1000-volt rated inverters. > > > > The AHJ is informing us that those electricians working on these circuits > require training specific to working on 600+ volt circuits. > > > > Anyone know of such training(s)? As in where to go to find/get such > training? > > > > Mahalo, > > marco > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirk at vtsolar.com Thu Jul 2 10:28:00 2015 From: kirk at vtsolar.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 10:28:00 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solaredge Storedge In-Reply-To: References: <00c801d0b27b$fc5bf1b0$f513d510$@vtsolar.com> <559194C6.9060007@midnitesolar.com> <01ec01d0b2a2$ef1bd890$cd5389b0$@vtsolar.com> Message-ID: <004201d0b4d3$4c8a1000$e59e3000$@vtsolar.com> The hype is deafening on this. I agree in the Storedge design there appears to be no way to separate out critical loads for operation during an outage, unless the homeowner manually turns off non-critical circuits. Not ideal. As for the Powerwall itself(not part of the Storedge system), they say 10kwh od storage costs $3,500. Hypothetically, that might be good for 24hrs of critical load power, maybe. But not usually in Vermont(Green Mountain Power territory), where multi-day outages are not uncommon. So in my area you might need two of the Powerwalls and still need a battery-based inverter. I haven’t read the article yet, but do have a copy. My question is what makes the Powerwall anything more than a wall-hung battery enclosure with lithium-ion batteries? Look at all the extras you need to make it work without(we hope) limitations. I am disappointed that GMP, my State’s largest utility, can paint such a rosy picture of an unproven product. The romance will quickly fade when sticker-shock of the real expense of battery –back up is exposed. It could turn into a PR nightmare for GMP. Kirk Herander VT Solar, LLC Proven PV provider since 1991 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Rebekah Hren Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2015 10:01 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solaredge Storedge I hear you loud and clear Kirk. On the one hand it is pretty cool to see so much interest in battery-based systems, on the other hand the level of misinformation being spread around is frightening and time-consuming to combat. There is a Bill McKibbon article in the New Yorker this week where he unfortunately, loudly and clearly, repeats the Tesla marketing spiel. He reports from the CEO of Green Mountain Power - "Powell was excited by its low price: three thousand dollars, far below what analysts had predicted, and low enough that her company could immediately begin installing it for customers, especially those who wanted backup electricity in case a snow-storm disabled the grid." Here's a link the article: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/06/29/power-to-the-people The more I re-read this the angrier I get, and honestly it would be awesome to send a group co-signed letter to the New Yorker refuting this inanity and telling Bill M to do his homework. Send me an email off-list if anyone wants to follow-up. Rebekah Hren On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 1:36 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: Here’s the reply I just got back from Solaredge: “As this stands ATM Tesla has only announced the product, not finished developing it. As Tesla finalizes it the details will become available. Please click StorEdge on the bottom right of the web page and sign up for the announcements as they come available. Furthermore all of our inverters are compatible with this announcement “ I get a funny vibe about all this hype / vaporware. Announced, but still in development. Kind of like the Powerwall itself. The Powerwall is supposedly sold out through 2016, with $800 mil in advance orders, and no product being shipped. Are there any Powerwalls in operation anywhere in the real world? Even in beta test? Available tech info on both Powerwall and Storedge is basically zero. Too bad nonsense marketing like this causes some potential customers to delay their commitment to install a system. Kirk Herander VT Solar, LLC Proven PV provider since 1991 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of boB at midnitesolar.com Sent: Monday, June 29, 2015 2:56 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solaredge Storedge I would think that Solar City would know all about this. Or, maybe I wouldn't ? boB On 6/29/2015 11:06 AM, Rebekah Hren wrote: I don't have any info, but the StorEdge diagram is confusing to me when it says "energy independence." I can see a simple compatibility between the Powerwall DC voltage (300 to 400VDC) and the SolarEdge operating voltage, ~350VDC, and I can also see how this setup could be used to maximize self-consumption (a grid-zero type system). What is confusing is the AC output of the inverter - it is not diagrammed as a multimode system, which is what "energy independence" would indicate to me. The brochure is not showing an AC loads panel that can be isolated from the grid, or any kind of separate transfer switch - which would be necessary for a multimode system. I would be curious to hear what the technical requirements will be to install the system as a multimode system, if that is indeed a possibility - which it may not be. Rebekah On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 8:57 AM, Kirk Herander wrote: Hello, Anyone have detailed info on the Storedge battery-compatible system from Solaredge? I only found a brochure on their website. Apparently batteries can be added to a new or existing Solaredge inverter (the brochure says they have partnered with Tesla’s Powerwall) for backup power. They call it “DC-coupling”. Kirk Herander VT Solar, LLC Proven PV provider since 1991 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Tel: 336.266.8800 NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 NC Licensed Electrical Contractor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william.miller at millersolar.com Thu Jul 2 10:40:25 2015 From: william.miller at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 07:40:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solaredge Storedge In-Reply-To: <004201d0b4d3$4c8a1000$e59e3000$@vtsolar.com> References: <00c801d0b27b$fc5bf1b0$f513d510$@vtsolar.com> <559194C6.9060007@midnitesolar.com> <01ec01d0b2a2$ef1bd890$cd5389b0$@vtsolar.com> <004201d0b4d3$4c8a1000$e59e3000$@vtsolar.com> Message-ID: <009401d0b4d5$096ff3f0$1c4fdbd0$@millersolar.com> Kirk: And a PR nightmare for integrators. The customer will be very disappointed that you have to charge at least several times the cost of the battery pack to make it provide back-up power. The overly rosy picture painted is a disservice to the industry. On a related note: It is 2015-- where is my flying car? William PS: I can see retrofit battery banks as practical when used for peak shaving, as long as you can live with the losses. Providing back-up power, other than cord connected, however, is a much more difficult endeavor. Wm Gradient Cap_mini Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 …It could turn into a PR nightmare for GMP. Kirk Herander -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rebecca.lundberg at powerfullygreen.com Thu Jul 2 19:20:10 2015 From: rebecca.lundberg at powerfullygreen.com (Rebecca Lundberg) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 18:20:10 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC modules O & M challenges Message-ID: Does anyone else have installations of the AUO/BenQ AC modules in the field? If not, do you have other brand installations of AC modules with SolarBridge microinverters? We have a site in MN that has modules installed in 2011, and a phase two in 2013. The overall performance is exceptional. However, we have had many inverters (9 at most recent count) at this residential site fail, and it does not seem to be slowing down. Our customer is notably concerned about the long term scenario for his product, because we are doing the O and M on good will and we won't be doing this forever. I do not need a lecture on O and M and residential customer service, I choose highest quality products and understand the expected risk involved (we do not do battery systems). But this product is proving to be more challenging than any others, and the manufacturer (when they respond) says nobody else has any issues, we are an anomoly.. We are receiving RMA units but not a stipend for replacement (and the site is 45 minutes away). BenQ said they would replace the entire unit, but they are really sending a new microinverter and we have to replace that on the roof. The screws and attachments were not designed to be used more than once... BenQ says they have a stipend for replacement, but realistically we have not received it after years of this repair stuff and invoices being sent, etc. At first our BenQ rep was very responsive. Recently I send four or five emails and get no response. At one point the BenQ rep copied the SunPower tech support person in the response (because SolarBridge sold to SunPower) but I have not heard a word from them either. Does anyone know how these companies are doing? We chose a product that appeared to have bankable companies behind them even if they were a bit new to solar, but right now BenQ, AUO, and SunPower have all been silent for many weeks. Most recently I replaced three microinveters at the site but a return label for the box was not included. I emailed and emailed and emailed and called, asking if they wanted the units back so they could test them and try to figure out what is going wrong, but have received NO response from anyone. I was told that there are no problems on any other site but mine. Sure, maybe MN winter is different from CA, but there must be others experiencing something like this. I would welcome any input. Sincerely, Rebecca Lundberg CEO, Powerfully Green (MN) -- Rebecca Lundberg NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer ® Owner/President *Powerfully Green*® 763.438.1976 | Rebecca.Lundberg at PowerfullyGreen.com Powered by the Sun! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Thu Jul 2 19:59:15 2015 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 16:59:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC modules O & M challenges In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Rebecca, My experience with ACPV is all SunPower but I imagine that the SolarBridge product is similar to what is used with BenQ. We have something in the range of 500 SunPower ACPV modules installed, almost all of the gen 1 SolarBridge variety. We’ve had several problems with the ACPV supervisor monitoring box but probably only a half dozen or so micro failures spread out on different sites. We definitely haven’t had a group of micros go down like you’re experiencing. Are you aware that the connectors are very finicky? The gen 1 connectors were very problematic and if not carefully and fully seated there can be connection issues. I wonder if part of your pain is due to the SunPower acquisition of SolarBridge. Is BenQ still selling their ACPV product? Certainly we deal with SunPower RMAs on a daily basis and they are responsive. Sorry I don’t have much more concrete ideas for you, but I thought I’d share my experience just so you have a reference point. Best, August Luminalt *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Rebecca Lundberg *Sent:* Thursday, July 02, 2015 4:20 PM *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] AC modules O & M challenges Does anyone else have installations of the AUO/BenQ AC modules in the field? If not, do you have other brand installations of AC modules with SolarBridge microinverters? We have a site in MN that has modules installed in 2011, and a phase two in 2013. The overall performance is exceptional. However, we have had many inverters (9 at most recent count) at this residential site fail, and it does not seem to be slowing down. Our customer is notably concerned about the long term scenario for his product, because we are doing the O and M on good will and we won't be doing this forever. I do not need a lecture on O and M and residential customer service, I choose highest quality products and understand the expected risk involved (we do not do battery systems). But this product is proving to be more challenging than any others, and the manufacturer (when they respond) says nobody else has any issues, we are an anomoly.. We are receiving RMA units but not a stipend for replacement (and the site is 45 minutes away). BenQ said they would replace the entire unit, but they are really sending a new microinverter and we have to replace that on the roof. The screws and attachments were not designed to be used more than once... BenQ says they have a stipend for replacement, but realistically we have not received it after years of this repair stuff and invoices being sent, etc. At first our BenQ rep was very responsive. Recently I send four or five emails and get no response. At one point the BenQ rep copied the SunPower tech support person in the response (because SolarBridge sold to SunPower) but I have not heard a word from them either. Does anyone know how these companies are doing? We chose a product that appeared to have bankable companies behind them even if they were a bit new to solar, but right now BenQ, AUO, and SunPower have all been silent for many weeks. Most recently I replaced three microinveters at the site but a return label for the box was not included. I emailed and emailed and emailed and called, asking if they wanted the units back so they could test them and try to figure out what is going wrong, but have received NO response from anyone. I was told that there are no problems on any other site but mine. Sure, maybe MN winter is different from CA, but there must be others experiencing something like this. I would welcome any input. Sincerely, Rebecca Lundberg CEO, Powerfully Green (MN) -- Rebecca Lundberg NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer ® Owner/President *Powerfully Green*® 763.438.1976 | Rebecca.Lundberg at PowerfullyGreen.com Powered by the Sun! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com Mon Jul 6 14:35:02 2015 From: jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com (James Rudolph) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2015 08:35:02 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1000-volt circuits In-Reply-To: <003301d0b430$5b688230$12398690$@com> References: <003301d0b430$5b688230$12398690$@com> Message-ID: Aloha Marco, Did you come up with any solutions to this problem? We may have a few here on Oahu in development that may go this way as well. Mahalo Nui Loa, *James B. Rudolph* *Haleakala Solar* *Director of Operations* *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155* On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 9:01 AM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: > Hola amigos y amigas. > > > > We’re doing our first projects here on the Big Island of Hawaii using > 1000-volt rated inverters. > > > > The AHJ is informing us that those electricians working on these circuits > require training specific to working on 600+ volt circuits. > > > > Anyone know of such training(s)? As in where to go to find/get such > training? > > > > Mahalo, > > marco > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gary at arp-solar.com Mon Jul 6 15:36:28 2015 From: gary at arp-solar.com (gary easton) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2015 15:36:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bird droppings Message-ID: I have a customer with a bit of a bird problem. The array is ground mounted and can be easily cleaned but he is wondering what the impact of for instance droppings on one cell. And how it adds up. Is there a rule of thumb for this? Does it depend where the cell is located in the module? -- Sent from Gmail Mobile -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Mon Jul 6 15:28:07 2015 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2015 09:28:07 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1000-volt circuits In-Reply-To: References: <003301d0b430$5b688230$12398690$@com> Message-ID: <011d01d0b821$e4fc0ea0$aef42be0$@com> It’s likely going to come down to the AHJ, James, though the City and County of Honolulu electrical department should already have at least some exposure to up to 1,000-volt DC circuits. One interesting thing I’ve learned is that the standard Hawaii C-13 electrical license may NOT be adequate to pull permits for projects beyond 600 volts. If the four counties hear decide to make life more difficult and play hardball, a C-63 (high voltage) license may be required. And how many companies have that in house? I don’t. For now, regarding our Hilo project, we will need to erect a fence (7’ tall no less!) around the five SMA Tripowers with the required clearance from the front of the inverters. And since the fence would be taller than 6’, it will require a building permit! Argh….. marco From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of James Rudolph Sent: Monday, July 06, 2015 8:35 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 1000-volt circuits Aloha Marco, Did you come up with any solutions to this problem? We may have a few here on Oahu in development that may go this way as well. Mahalo Nui Loa, James B. Rudolph Haleakala Solar Director of Operations NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155 On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 9:01 AM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: Hola amigos y amigas. We’re doing our first projects here on the Big Island of Hawaii using 1000-volt rated inverters. The AHJ is informing us that those electricians working on these circuits require training specific to working on 600+ volt circuits. Anyone know of such training(s)? As in where to go to find/get such training? Mahalo, marco _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dyoung at dovetailsolar.com Mon Jul 6 16:15:19 2015 From: dyoung at dovetailsolar.com (Daniel Young) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2015 16:15:19 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bird droppings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001b01d0b828$7c1c3390$74549ab0$@com> Hey Gary, Basically the area of the dropping will lower the current of that module (and the current of that string if this is a string inverter). The amount of current loss will be the % of the dropping area vs the area of the cell it landed on. Voltage won’t be affected by things the scale of a few bird droppings. If this is a string inverter, theoretically if one module on the string took a hit, then every other module on the string can take a hit too and not really increase the impact, as they are all already current limited by the first module to take a hit. The current of that string will just be the same as the current from the most affected module in the string. So multiple droppings really don’t have a big additive affect. Assume all birds drop the same size load (you’re not getting seagulls over there so you’re talking starlings, robins, barn swallows, all similar size :) once one module in a string is hit, there will not be any further impact on production until some module in the string gets 2 hits on the same cell on the same module. Cells are just a string mounted in a module frame. So you could have a module with 5 droppings on it if they were all on different cells, and it would do the same as a module with just one dropping, if they were all the same size. At some point that above example breaks down, because the bypass diodes will start to kick in if one cell grouping gets hit too hard. As for where on the module….untill you get to the point where bypass diodes are kicking in, I don’t think there is a difference. And at what point would the diodes kick in, you’d need to get an I-V curve tracer out and play around with paintballs or something to help quantify that J That’s the way I understand it at least. I have not gone out with my I-V tracer and dug into this in detail. It’s just based of the core parallel vs series wiring of the typical PV source circuit. I have not seen much impact to date from bird droppings on our Solaredge installs so far (the ones I KNOW where hit by birdie bombers were so close to those that weren’t that I can’t pick them out on the monitoring portal, they just look like typical manufacturing variances [all within the +/- x% power tolerances]) With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 Lead Systems Designer for: Dovetail 2013 cmyk 300dpi.jpg www.dovetailsolar.com Ph: 740-274-0139 We’ve completed nearly 400 renewable energy projects! Check out a few in our photo gallery: http://www.dovetailsolar.com/Our-Work.aspx?path=commercial+-+solar+electric This email message and attachments are intended only for the addressee. It may contain information which is legally privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, you may not disclose, print, copy or disseminate this message and/or the information contained in the message. If you have received this message in error, please reply and notify the sender (only) and delete this message along with any attachments. Unauthorized interception of this email is a violation of criminal laws and laws covering electronic communications privacy matters. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of gary easton Sent: Monday, July 06, 2015 3:36 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bird droppings I have a customer with a bit of a bird problem. The array is ground mounted and can be easily cleaned but he is wondering what the impact of for instance droppings on one cell. And how it adds up. Is there a rule of thumb for this? Does it depend where the cell is located in the module? -- Sent from Gmail Mobile _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2250 / Virus Database: 4365/9671 - Release Date: 07/06/15 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 4343 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gary at arp-solar.com Mon Jul 6 16:21:44 2015 From: gary at arp-solar.com (gary easton) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2015 16:21:44 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bird droppings In-Reply-To: <001b01d0b828$7c1c3390$74549ab0$@com> References: <001b01d0b828$7c1c3390$74549ab0$@com> Message-ID: Thanks Daniel! On Monday, July 6, 2015, Daniel Young wrote: > Hey Gary, > > > > Basically the area of the dropping will lower the current of that module > (and the current of that string if this is a string inverter). The amount > of current loss will be the % of the dropping area vs the area of the cell > it landed on. Voltage won’t be affected by things the scale of a few bird > droppings. > > > > If this is a string inverter, theoretically if one module on the string > took a hit, then every other module on the string can take a hit too and > not really increase the impact, as they are all already current limited by > the first module to take a hit. The current of that string will just be the > same as the current from the most affected module in the string. So > multiple droppings really don’t have a big additive affect. > > > > Assume all birds drop the same size load (you’re not getting seagulls over > there so you’re talking starlings, robins, barn swallows, all similar size > :) once one module in a string is hit, there will not be any further impact > on production until some module in the string gets 2 hits on the *same > cell on the same module.* Cells are just a string mounted in a module > frame. So you could have a module with 5 droppings on it if they were all > on different cells, and it would do the same as a module with just one > dropping, if they were all the same size. > > > > At some point that above example breaks down, because the bypass diodes > will start to kick in if one cell grouping gets hit too hard. > > > > As for where on the module….untill you get to the point where bypass > diodes are kicking in, I don’t think there is a difference. And at what > point would the diodes kick in, you’d need to get an I-V curve tracer out > and play around with paintballs or something to help quantify that J > > > > That’s the way I understand it at least. I have not gone out with my I-V > tracer and dug into this in detail. It’s just based of the core parallel vs > series wiring of the typical PV source circuit. I have not seen much impact > to date from bird droppings on our Solaredge installs so far (the ones I > KNOW where hit by birdie bombers were so close to those that weren’t that I > can’t pick them out on the monitoring portal, they just look like typical > manufacturing variances [all within the +/- x% power tolerances]) > > > > With Regards, > > > > Daniel Young, > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > > Lead Systems Designer for: > > [image: Dovetail 2013 cmyk 300dpi.jpg] > > *www.dovetailsolar.com * > > Ph: 740-274-0139 > > > > We’ve completed nearly 400 renewable energy projects! Check out a few in > our photo gallery: *http://www.dovetailsolar.com/Our-Work.aspx?path=commercial+-+solar+electric > * > > This email message and attachments are intended only for the addressee. > It may contain information which is legally privileged, confidential and > exempt from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient of this > message, you may not disclose, print, copy or disseminate this message > and/or the information contained in the message. If you have received this > message in error, please reply and notify the sender (only) and delete this > message along with any attachments. Unauthorized interception of this > email is a violation of criminal laws and laws covering electronic > communications privacy matters. > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] > *On Behalf Of *gary easton > *Sent:* Monday, July 06, 2015 3:36 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Bird droppings > > > > I have a customer with a bit of a bird problem. The array is ground > mounted and can be easily cleaned but he is wondering what the impact of > for instance droppings on one cell. And how it adds up. Is there a rule > of thumb for this? Does it depend where the cell is located in the module? > > > > -- > Sent from Gmail Mobile > ------------------------------ > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.2250 / Virus Database: 4365/9671 - Release Date: 07/06/15 > -- Sent from Gmail Mobile -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 4343 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lars at cal-solar.com Wed Jul 8 17:01:59 2015 From: lars at cal-solar.com (Lars Ortegren) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2015 14:01:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Slate roof attachment? Message-ID: Wrenches, Anyone out there attach to slate roofs? we've had one, that ended with us re-roofing the portion of the roof under the array, but I'm wondering if there is a great product out there that others have used? Thus far, the only attachment I can find is the PV Quickmount shake flashing that even mentions slate. Ideas? -- *Lars Örtegren/ **President* [image: California Solar Electric Company] PO Box 480/149 E.Main St Grass Valley, CA 95945 Phone : (530)274-3671 Fax: (530)274-7518 *California C-10 Electrical Contractor #779624* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed Jul 8 17:28:01 2015 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2015 14:28:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Slate roof attachment? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <162dff4d096e7cd12f9fc987caa95d91@mail.gmail.com> Hi Lars, Slate is a tough one. We’ve always hired a roofer to work with us on slate roofs – they can setup toe boards (if it is steep) and work with our installers as we mount stanchions. We’ve used standard cylindrical posts such as Unirac standoffs or Pro Solar Fast Jacks and then they flash them with copper flashings. They can also replace slates as they break. I would never attempt to work on a slate roof without a roofer involved – it is simply too fragile. Best, August Luminalt *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Lars Ortegren *Sent:* Wednesday, July 08, 2015 2:02 PM *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Slate roof attachment? Wrenches, Anyone out there attach to slate roofs? we've had one, that ended with us re-roofing the portion of the roof under the array, but I'm wondering if there is a great product out there that others have used? Thus far, the only attachment I can find is the PV Quickmount shake flashing that even mentions slate. Ideas? -- *Lars Örtegren/ President* [image: California Solar Electric Company] PO Box 480/149 E.Main St Grass Valley, CA 95945 Phone : (530)274-3671 Fax: (530)274-7518 *California C-10 Electrical Contractor #779624* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Wed Jul 8 19:32:20 2015 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2015 17:32:20 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island Sizing In-Reply-To: <3D0B04D8-11AE-4E39-9806-7575FF4C03B4@swnl.net> References: <3D0B04D8-11AE-4E39-9806-7575FF4C03B4@swnl.net> Message-ID: Still no luck with SMA. I did have one call back and waited for an email, with no avail. I have since sent numerous emails to people mentioned on this list. I hope the support after the sale is better! Not sure if I should even be putting this on the wrenches list or not. I know it doesn't apply to working in the field, but..... Jeremy Rodriguez All Solar, Inc. 1463 M Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > On Jun 25, 2015, at 4:07 PM, Tump wrote: > > While they recently have down sized their staff I find this surprising. I have CCed an engineer and someone you can Btch slap...... enjoy Greg! TUMP > Contact me off list if you still have a problem I do SI/SB installs >> On Jun 25, 2015, at 9:00 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: >> >> Hello >> So far I've been unsuccessful in getting SMA to return a call >> Does anyone have a direct line to one of their design engineers? >> •Off grid SI/SB 3Phase >> Help..... >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> Solar Installation And Design Expert >> All Solar, Inc. >> 1463 M >> Penrose Colorado 81240 >> >> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net >> Solarwinds Northernlights >> Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California >> 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 >> Blair "TUMP" May >> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" >> >> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Jul 8 20:13:33 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2015 17:13:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island Sizing In-Reply-To: References: <3D0B04D8-11AE-4E39-9806-7575FF4C03B4@swnl.net> Message-ID: <5888CD3F-5350-46AB-B3C1-94AD6867718F@gmail.com> Out of curiosity what is the design question? And I'd heard rumors that SMA was dropping the SI in the USA. Know anyone going to intersolar? I bet there are Sma folks there Jay Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 8, 2015, at 4:32 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > > Still no luck with SMA. > I did have one call back and waited for an email, with no avail. I have since sent numerous emails to people mentioned on this list. > I hope the support after the sale is better! Not sure if I should even be putting this on the wrenches list or not. I know it doesn't apply to working in the field, but..... > > Jeremy Rodriguez > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > >> On Jun 25, 2015, at 4:07 PM, Tump wrote: >> >> While they recently have down sized their staff I find this surprising. I have CCed an engineer and someone you can Btch slap...... enjoy Greg! TUMP >> Contact me off list if you still have a problem I do SI/SB installs >>> On Jun 25, 2015, at 9:00 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: >>> >>> Hello >>> So far I've been unsuccessful in getting SMA to return a call >>> Does anyone have a direct line to one of their design engineers? >>> •Off grid SI/SB 3Phase >>> Help..... >>> >>> Jeremy Rodriguez >>> Solar Installation And Design Expert >>> All Solar, Inc. >>> 1463 M >>> Penrose Colorado 81240 >>> >>> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >>> Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net >>> Solarwinds Northernlights >>> Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California >>> 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 >>> Blair "TUMP" May >>> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>> NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" >>> >>> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>> Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Jul 8 18:32:42 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2015 12:32:42 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Slate roof attachment? Message-ID: Completely agree, slate brakes if you look at it wrong and that being said who is responsible to remove the modules to replace the tiles for the next  how many years Jerry Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: August Goers Date: 07/08/2015 11:28 AM (GMT-10:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Slate roof attachment? Hi Lars, Slate is a tough one. We’ve always hired a roofer to work with us on slate roofs – they can setup toe boards (if it is steep) and work with our installers as we mount stanchions. We’ve used standard cylindrical posts such as Unirac standoffs or Pro Solar Fast Jacks and then they flash them with copper flashings. They can also replace slates as they break. I would never attempt to work on a slate roof without a roofer involved – it is simply too fragile. Best, August Luminalt From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Lars Ortegren Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2015 2:02 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Slate roof attachment? Wrenches,Anyone out there attach to slate roofs? we've had one, that ended with us re-roofing the portion of the roof under the array, but I'm wondering if there is a great product out there that others have used? Thus far, the only attachment I can find is the PV Quickmount shake flashing that even mentions slate.  Ideas?  -- Lars Örtegren/ President PO Box 480/149 E.Main St Grass Valley, CA 95945 Phone : (530)274-3671 Fax: (530)274-7518 California C-10 Electrical Contractor #779624     -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Wed Jul 8 21:05:52 2015 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2015 21:05:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island Sizing In-Reply-To: <5888CD3F-5350-46AB-B3C1-94AD6867718F@gmail.com> References: <3D0B04D8-11AE-4E39-9806-7575FF4C03B4@swnl.net> <5888CD3F-5350-46AB-B3C1-94AD6867718F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5B6FF830-B82F-4AD2-8113-75AEA36C7BFE@solarenergy.org> Last year SMA didn't have a booth at Intersolar, just the company can illegally parked outside. Not sure about this year but I do know Greg Smith just left. Brian > On Jul 8, 2015, at 8:13 PM, Jay wrote: > > Out of curiosity what is the design question? > > And I'd heard rumors that SMA was dropping the SI in the USA. > > Know anyone going to intersolar? I bet there are Sma folks there > > Jay > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jul 8, 2015, at 4:32 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: >> >> Still no luck with SMA. >> I did have one call back and waited for an email, with no avail. I have since sent numerous emails to people mentioned on this list. >> I hope the support after the sale is better! Not sure if I should even be putting this on the wrenches list or not. I know it doesn't apply to working in the field, but..... >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> All Solar, Inc. >> 1463 M >> Penrose Colorado 81240 >> >> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! >> >>> On Jun 25, 2015, at 4:07 PM, Tump wrote: >>> >>> While they recently have down sized their staff I find this surprising. I have CCed an engineer and someone you can Btch slap...... enjoy Greg! TUMP >>> Contact me off list if you still have a problem I do SI/SB installs >>>> On Jun 25, 2015, at 9:00 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: >>>> >>>> Hello >>>> So far I've been unsuccessful in getting SMA to return a call >>>> Does anyone have a direct line to one of their design engineers? >>>> •Off grid SI/SB 3Phase >>>> Help..... >>>> >>>> Jeremy Rodriguez >>>> Solar Installation And Design Expert >>>> All Solar, Inc. >>>> 1463 M >>>> Penrose Colorado 81240 >>>> >>>> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>>> Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net >>>> Solarwinds Northernlights >>>> Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California >>>> 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 >>>> Blair "TUMP" May >>>> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>>> NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" >>>> >>>> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>>> Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william.miller at millersolar.com Wed Jul 8 22:28:26 2015 From: william.miller at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2015 19:28:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island Sizing In-Reply-To: <5B6FF830-B82F-4AD2-8113-75AEA36C7BFE@solarenergy.org> References: <3D0B04D8-11AE-4E39-9806-7575FF4C03B4@swnl.net> <5888CD3F-5350-46AB-B3C1-94AD6867718F@gmail.com> <5B6FF830-B82F-4AD2-8113-75AEA36C7BFE@solarenergy.org> Message-ID: <040d01d0b9ee$f1b413d0$d51c3b70$@millersolar.com> They parked their can outside?!?! That’s rude! J Gradient Cap_mini Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Brian Mehalic Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2015 6:06 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island Sizing Last year SMA didn't have a booth at Intersolar, just the company can illegally parked outside. Not sure about this year but I do know Greg Smith just left. Brian On Jul 8, 2015, at 8:13 PM, Jay wrote: Out of curiosity what is the design question? And I'd heard rumors that SMA was dropping the SI in the USA. Know anyone going to intersolar? I bet there are Sma folks there Jay Sent from my iPhone On Jul 8, 2015, at 4:32 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: Still no luck with SMA. I did have one call back and waited for an email, with no avail. I have since sent numerous emails to people mentioned on this list. I hope the support after the sale is better! Not sure if I should even be putting this on the wrenches list or not. I know it doesn't apply to working in the field, but..... Jeremy Rodriguez All Solar, Inc. 1463 M Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! On Jun 25, 2015, at 4:07 PM, Tump wrote: While they recently have down sized their staff I find this surprising. I have CCed an engineer and someone you can Btch slap...... enjoy Greg! TUMP Contact me off list if you still have a problem I do SI/SB installs On Jun 25, 2015, at 9:00 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: Hello So far I've been unsuccessful in getting SMA to return a call Does anyone have a direct line to one of their design engineers? •Off grid SI/SB 3Phase Help..... Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net Solarwinds Northernlights Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 Blair "TUMP" May ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1461 bytes Desc: not available URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Wed Jul 8 22:41:05 2015 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2015 22:41:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island Sizing In-Reply-To: <040d01d0b9ee$f1b413d0$d51c3b70$@millersolar.com> References: <3D0B04D8-11AE-4E39-9806-7575FF4C03B4@swnl.net> <5888CD3F-5350-46AB-B3C1-94AD6867718F@gmail.com> <5B6FF830-B82F-4AD2-8113-75AEA36C7BFE@solarenergy.org> <040d01d0b9ee$f1b413d0$d51c3b70$@millersolar.com> Message-ID: <43D75D60-C3CB-4464-BFFF-63E15656B273@solarenergy.org> Er van. Dunno if inside there was a can. Brian > On Jul 8, 2015, at 10:28 PM, William Miller wrote: > > They parked their can outside?!?! That’s rude! J > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Brian Mehalic > Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2015 6:06 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island Sizing > > Last year SMA didn't have a booth at Intersolar, just the company can illegally parked outside. Not sure about this year but I do know Greg Smith just left. > > > > Brian > > On Jul 8, 2015, at 8:13 PM, Jay wrote: > > Out of curiosity what is the design question? > > And I'd heard rumors that SMA was dropping the SI in the USA. > > Know anyone going to intersolar? I bet there are Sma folks there > > Jay > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jul 8, 2015, at 4:32 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > > Still no luck with SMA. > I did have one call back and waited for an email, with no avail. I have since sent numerous emails to people mentioned on this list. > I hope the support after the sale is better! Not sure if I should even be putting this on the wrenches list or not. I know it doesn't apply to working in the field, but..... > > Jeremy Rodriguez > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > > On Jun 25, 2015, at 4:07 PM, Tump wrote: > > While they recently have down sized their staff I find this surprising. I have CCed an engineer and someone you can Btch slap...... enjoy Greg! TUMP > Contact me off list if you still have a problem I do SI/SB installs > On Jun 25, 2015, at 9:00 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > > > Hello > So far I've been unsuccessful in getting SMA to return a call > Does anyone have a direct line to one of their design engineers? > •Off grid SI/SB 3Phase > Help..... > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation And Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1461 bytes Desc: not available URL: From William.White at rgsenergy.com Thu Jul 9 08:01:21 2015 From: William.White at rgsenergy.com (Will White) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2015 12:01:21 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Slate roof attachment? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We recently did a slate roof. We used the Unirac standoff posts and Oatey flashings. We had the roofer who installed the slate put the posts in. He also left his staging up for us to work on. This is the only slate roof we’ve ever done because the cost of the roofer usually makes the job too expensive. I wouldn’t install the mounts in house because slate is so difficult to work with. You also can’t walk on it or it cracks. Good Luck, Will Will White Director of Construction – East Coast RGS Energy 64 Main St. |Montpelier, VT 05602 tel 802.223.7804 | mobile 802.234.3167 | fax 802.223.8980 RGSEnergy.com | william.white at rgsenergy.com Confidentiality Note: This e-mail message may contain confidential or legally privileged information and is intended only for the use of the intended recipient(s). Any unauthorized disclosure, dissemination, distribution, copying or the taking of any action in reliance on the information herein is prohibited. E-mails are not secure and cannot be guaranteed to be error free as they can be intercepted, amended, or contain viruses. Anyone who communicates with us by e-mail is deemed to have accepted these risks. RGS Energy is not responsible for errors or omissions in this message and denies any responsibility for any damage arising from the use of e-mail. Any opinion and other statement contained in this message and any attachment are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Lars Ortegren Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2015 5:02 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Slate roof attachment? Wrenches, Anyone out there attach to slate roofs? we've had one, that ended with us re-roofing the portion of the roof under the array, but I'm wondering if there is a great product out there that others have used? Thus far, the only attachment I can find is the PV Quickmount shake flashing that even mentions slate. Ideas? -- Lars Örtegren/ President [California Solar Electric Company] PO Box 480/149 E.Main St Grass Valley, CA 95945 Phone : (530)274-3671 Fax: (530)274-7518 California C-10 Electrical Contractor #779624 [http://i57.tinypic.com/14w6aac.jpg][http://i61.tinypic.com/13znwa8.jpg] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Jul 9 09:26:37 2015 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2015 09:26:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Slate roof attachment? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20150709132646.9C07CA806C@homiemail-a81.g.dreamhost.com> We did a slate roof project. We got the equipment from Quickmount. The system involved a standoff bolted to the purlins with an oversized flashing. Three slates needed to be removed for each attachment, and a hole cut in the slate for the standoff. The system works well, but was expensive and slow to install. Don't use any system that requires compressing the slate. Such an approach had originally been recommended, but our roofer agreed that it was a very bad method. You will need a slate roof guy to remove and replace the slates, and repair any damage that occurs. Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ At 05:01 PM 7/8/2015, you wrote: >Wrenches, >Anyone out there attach to slate roofs? we've >had one, that ended with us re-roofing the >portion of the roof under the array, but I'm >wondering if there is a great product out there >that others have used? Thus far, the only >attachment I can find is the PV Quickmount shake >flashing that even mentions slate. Ideas? > >-- > >Lars Örtegren/ President > > > California Solar Electric Company > > >PO Box 480/149 E.Main St >Grass Valley, CA 95945 >Phone : (530)274-3671 Fax: (530)274-7518 >California C-10 Electrical Contractor #779624 > >[] >[] >  > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Jul 11 15:30:58 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2015 12:30:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate Drop and Charge Functions Message-ID: <8D1FE9EC-3255-4190-BF18-C3562B60F5DA@millersolar.com> Friends: How many of you have customers who have accidentally engaged the "drop" function or disabled all battery charge functions whilst simply trying to stop a generator or EQ cycle? I have seen customers ruin battery banks by mistaking these functions. I think it is a big mistake to put these similar-appearing functions together. The drop and charge functions really should be behind a password or deleted altogether. Either function can be accomplished by opening the correct circuit breaker. I am engaged in a conversation with Outback strongly encouraging them to fix this problem. More voices would help. William Miller From frenergy at psln.com Sat Jul 11 21:23:42 2015 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2015 18:23:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate Drop and Charge Functions References: <8D1FE9EC-3255-4190-BF18-C3562B60F5DA@millersolar.com> Message-ID: William, Maybe an easy fix for the more critical functions would be to have another window (like on a computer, often) pop-up when, in this case, "drop" is chosen that asks in more detail "Are you sure you wish to disable the charging function of the generator?".. so they would know they are not stopping the genny of stopping EQ or whatever. There are a few screens on the Mate 3 that I am not sure what it is they are trying to convey. For the same reason I can't stand being lost, I'm the first one to ask for directions...same with the Mate, I keep the user manual close by and use it often as there is a lot in there. Homeowners are another matter. Bill Feather River Solar Electric ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Miller" To: "RE-wrenches" Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 12:30 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate Drop and Charge Functions > Friends: > > How many of you have customers who have accidentally engaged the "drop" > function or disabled all battery charge functions whilst simply trying to > stop a generator or EQ cycle? I have seen customers ruin battery banks by > mistaking these functions. > > I think it is a big mistake to put these similar-appearing functions > together. The drop and charge functions really should be behind a password > or deleted altogether. Either function can be accomplished by opening the > correct circuit breaker. > > I am engaged in a conversation with Outback strongly encouraging them to > fix this problem. More voices would help. > > William Miller > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From toddcory at finestplanet.com Sun Jul 12 12:00:13 2015 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2015 09:00:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate Drop and Charge Functions Message-ID: <1436716813.80856850@webmail.finestplanet.com> i have had this happen, but only with one very elderly customer who didnt know what he was doing. he is 93 now, and has wisely hired a neighbor to maintain his system. having people "press buttons" who dont understand their function or correct settings is a recipe for problems. a ruined battery bank is an expensive lesson. in all my years of designing and building systems (mostly all off-grid) i only had one customer who was so challenged with flying the system, that after she destroyed two sets of battery banks in 5 years, she decided living off-grid was too complicated, and she moved back to town. she rented her place and the renters actually operated the system with no problem. the point is, some people are better at understanding and operating a battery/inverter/solar system than others. sure, the MATE could be easier, but i have never had any difficulty navigating and changing the menu settings and options. usually it is "operator/customer error". todd On Saturday, July 11, 2015 12:30pm, "William Miller" said: > Friends: > > How many of you have customers who have accidentally engaged the "drop" function > or disabled all battery charge functions whilst simply trying to stop a generator > or EQ cycle? I have seen customers ruin battery banks by mistaking these > functions. > > I think it is a big mistake to put these similar-appearing functions together. The > drop and charge functions really should be behind a password or deleted > altogether. Either function can be accomplished by opening the correct circuit > breaker. > > I am engaged in a conversation with Outback strongly encouraging them to fix this > problem. More voices would help. > > William Miller > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sun Jul 12 12:27:20 2015 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2015 10:27:20 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate Drop and Charge Functions In-Reply-To: <1436716813.80856850@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <1436716813.80856850@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: I really like Outback and the performance of their products, but the non-intuitive interface of the old Mate is why I stopped installing Outback and moved to Magnum. With the inexpensive Magnum remote, I can guide zero-knowledge remote-area clients through the diagnostic process via satphone or sat text messaging with no RTFM paperwork in front of me. For example "You are only browsing until you push in the big black button. Rotate it to Charge Rate and tell me what it says.100%? Now push it in. Now dial it to 70% charge rate. Push the big black button in again to change the setting. Does your generator not stall now? " Little things like this save me a whole bunch of stress and time. I have not yet tried the new Mate, I'll need convincing info on the zero-information user friendly-nes first. And camp managers can change every year....all previous client training lost. Dan Fink Buckville Energy IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sun Jul 12 14:19:54 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2015 11:19:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate Drop and Charge Functions In-Reply-To: <1436716813.80856850@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <1436716813.80856850@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: Todd, wrenches: I should have known this thread would bring up the broader issue of human interface. I believe in two levels of interface: user and installer. The drop and charge functions are installer level. Gen start and EQ are user. The installer items should be password protected. The problem is exacerbated by the nearly identical appearance of the gen-start, drop and charge screens. Outback claims they can't make these changes because the memory is full. If true, I advocate reducing the lines of code by eliminating the drop and charge functions altogether. These functions can be performed with circuit breakers. Should this is accomplished I will systematically upgrade all of my customer's Mates. This complaint extends to the manuals. The industry writes terrible manuals. I rewrite all of the manuals and produce a highly condensed user manual with detachable, laminated instructions for common tasks. William > On Jul 12, 2015, at 9:00 AM, toddcory at finestplanet.com wrote: > > i have had this happen, but only with one very elderly customer who didnt know what he was doing. he is 93 now, and has wisely hired a neighbor to maintain his system. > > having people "press buttons" who dont understand their function or correct settings is a recipe for problems. a ruined battery bank is an expensive lesson. > > in all my years of designing and building systems (mostly all off-grid) i only had one customer who was so challenged with flying the system, that after she destroyed two sets of battery banks in 5 years, she decided living off-grid was too complicated, and she moved back to town. she rented her place and the renters actually operated the system with no problem. > > the point is, some people are better at understanding and operating a battery/inverter/solar system than others. sure, the MATE could be easier, but i have never had any difficulty navigating and changing the menu settings and options. usually it is "operator/customer error". > > todd > > > > > > On Saturday, July 11, 2015 12:30pm, "William Miller" said: > > > Friends: > > > > How many of you have customers who have accidentally engaged the "drop" function > > or disabled all battery charge functions whilst simply trying to stop a generator > > or EQ cycle? I have seen customers ruin battery banks by mistaking these > > functions. > > > > I think it is a big mistake to put these similar-appearing functions together. The > > drop and charge functions really should be behind a password or deleted > > altogether. Either function can be accomplished by opening the correct circuit > > breaker. > > > > I am engaged in a conversation with Outback strongly encouraging them to fix this > > problem. More voices would help. > > > > William Miller > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sun Jul 12 14:56:31 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2015 12:56:31 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] [SPAM] Re: Mate Drop and Charge Functions In-Reply-To: References: <1436716813.80856850@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: <55A2B85F.3080501@solarray.com> You would think that a computer device that retails for more than many laptops would be able to afford more memory, a bigger screen, and an interface that didn't feel like preWindows DOS. I just don't even bother with Outback much anymore. Other companies' solutions work better, are easier to support, and don't cost near as much. End of story. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 7/12/2015 12:19 PM, William Miller wrote: Outback claims they can't make these changes because the memory is full. If true, I advocate reducing the lines of code by eliminating the drop and charge functions altogether. These functions can be performed with circuit breakers. Should this is accomplished I will systematically upgrade all of my customer's Mates. William -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Jul 12 19:37:32 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2015 16:37:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] [SPAM] Re: Mate Drop and Charge Functions In-Reply-To: <55A2B85F.3080501@solarray.com> References: <1436716813.80856850@webmail.finestplanet.com> <55A2B85F.3080501@solarray.com> Message-ID: All the different remote controls have their pros/cons. However I find the web based videos from outback to be the most helpful of any. I refer folks to them more and more with really good results. I have a different view than some about locked out remotes. Its the customer’s system, not mine. I know some folks don’t even leave a remote at all. if they want to screw it up, thats their problem. And its the only way they will ever get to know their system and be empowered to run it. As to outback, I don’t believe they are going to spend any time/energy on the mate 1. And really the mate 3 should be completely redesigned as well but it does eliminate that problem that William started this with, which I’ve had many times over the year, people messing with it instead of AGS. And in Outbacks favor the ability to upgrade their mate 3, new CC and VFXR/Radian with a SD card is super easy. Magnum, no updating Schnieider, you’ll have to fight with the dongle SMA SI yep, SD card. that all said, getting to the 21st century with our remotes ( blue tooth, wifi, apps etc) would be really cool though. jay peltz power From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Jul 12 12:22:35 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2015 09:22:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate Drop and Charge Functions In-Reply-To: <1436716813.80856850@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <1436716813.80856850@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: <8B65AC0B-7762-48FA-9E23-436E2FF1CD98@gmail.com> Hi All, I’m with William, Its happened a number of times. But I doubt that outback is going to change anything with the mate 1. jay peltz power > On Jul 12, 2015, at 9:00 AM, toddcory at finestplanet.com wrote: > > i have had this happen, but only with one very elderly customer who didnt know what he was doing. he is 93 now, and has wisely hired a neighbor to maintain his system. > > having people "press buttons" who dont understand their function or correct settings is a recipe for problems. a ruined battery bank is an expensive lesson. > > in all my years of designing and building systems (mostly all off-grid) i only had one customer who was so challenged with flying the system, that after she destroyed two sets of battery banks in 5 years, she decided living off-grid was too complicated, and she moved back to town. she rented her place and the renters actually operated the system with no problem. > > the point is, some people are better at understanding and operating a battery/inverter/solar system than others. sure, the MATE could be easier, but i have never had any difficulty navigating and changing the menu settings and options. usually it is "operator/customer error". > > todd > > bers.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reellison at gmail.com Sun Jul 12 20:10:01 2015 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2015 20:10:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate Drop and Charge Functions In-Reply-To: <8B65AC0B-7762-48FA-9E23-436E2FF1CD98@gmail.com> References: <1436716813.80856850@webmail.finestplanet.com> <8B65AC0B-7762-48FA-9E23-436E2FF1CD98@gmail.com> Message-ID: <012d01d0bd00$49d12f80$dd738e80$@com> I doubt that Outback could change the Mate and improve it. I still find it difficult to deal with and switched to Magnum for that reason. In my opinion the “improvements” made to the MX 60 in moving to the FM 60 were not an improvement. I have a customer with 2 identical racks and the MX60 did better every time we checked. Just my opinion, Bob From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2015 12:23 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Mate Drop and Charge Functions Hi All, I’m with William, Its happened a number of times. But I doubt that outback is going to change anything with the mate 1. jay peltz power On Jul 12, 2015, at 9:00 AM, toddcory at finestplanet.com wrote: i have had this happen, but only with one very elderly customer who didnt know what he was doing. he is 93 now, and has wisely hired a neighbor to maintain his system. having people "press buttons" who dont understand their function or correct settings is a recipe for problems. a ruined battery bank is an expensive lesson. in all my years of designing and building systems (mostly all off-grid) i only had one customer who was so challenged with flying the system, that after she destroyed two sets of battery banks in 5 years, she decided living off-grid was too complicated, and she moved back to town. she rented her place and the renters actually operated the system with no problem. the point is, some people are better at understanding and operating a battery/inverter/solar system than others. sure, the MATE could be easier, but i have never had any difficulty navigating and changing the menu settings and options. usually it is "operator/customer error". todd bers.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Sun Jul 12 21:00:03 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2015 18:00:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] [SPAM] Re: Mate Drop and Charge Functions In-Reply-To: References: <1436716813.80856850@webmail.finestplanet.com> <55A2B85F.3080501@solarray.com> Message-ID: <1A584B7A-21D0-4BF2-93EC-4161F43F9D39@starlightsolar.com> Hey Jay, Magnum Energy does do firmware updates on their remotes and even does it for free if the customer buys a product that requires it, e.g. ME-BMK or ME-AGS. The remote must be sent in to ME, though. The very idea that one must spend time with videos to understand how to operate their power system speaks to the reason for this thread. I was selling mostly Outback but had too many customers (far south into Mexico) screwing up the programming. I switched to Magnum Energy a few years ago and customer use problems basically went away. Using a Magnum Energy system is easy for the customer and as Dan Fink so aptly described, you can walk the customer through changes quickly. Even though we have several hundred Magnum inverters installed, this rarely happens. I will say, however, with the growing list of features, the manual is getting quite long. With the soon release of their new 100 amp charge controller, ME will have a complete solution through one remote. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jul 12, 2015, at 4:37 PM, jay wrote: All the different remote controls have their pros/cons. However I find the web based videos from outback to be the most helpful of any. I refer folks to them more and more with really good results. I have a different view than some about locked out remotes. Its the customer’s system, not mine. I know some folks don’t even leave a remote at all. if they want to screw it up, thats their problem. And its the only way they will ever get to know their system and be empowered to run it. As to outback, I don’t believe they are going to spend any time/energy on the mate 1. And really the mate 3 should be completely redesigned as well but it does eliminate that problem that William started this with, which I’ve had many times over the year, people messing with it instead of AGS. And in Outbacks favor the ability to upgrade their mate 3, new CC and VFXR/Radian with a SD card is super easy. Magnum, no updating Schnieider, you’ll have to fight with the dongle SMA SI yep, SD card. that all said, getting to the 21st century with our remotes ( blue tooth, wifi, apps etc) would be really cool though. jay peltz power From solarphil at gmail.com Sun Jul 12 21:32:56 2015 From: solarphil at gmail.com (Phil Undercuffler) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2015 18:32:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate Drop and Charge Functions In-Reply-To: <012d01d0bd00$49d12f80$dd738e80$@com> References: <1436716813.80856850@webmail.finestplanet.com> <8B65AC0B-7762-48FA-9E23-436E2FF1CD98@gmail.com> <012d01d0bd00$49d12f80$dd738e80$@com> Message-ID: Hi all, I'm going to chime in here because Sandra Herrera recently took over from Matt James as our Applications Engineering Manager and voice to the Wrenches, but I'm not sure she's fully set up yet to respond. If this is a duplicate post, please forgive. We at OutBack believe in an empowered system owner, and we want to give system owners the tools and flexibility to manage their own power and investment in whatever way they see fit. The MATE3 also gives you tools to control user access, to lock the system down to prevent inadvertent changes, with multiple user-levels so depending upon whether the system is managed by a tenant, a tinkerer or a technogeek, they can have the right levels of access (or limit access if desired). With more and more variable utility rates and demand management programs beginning to be available, we see the Drop and Use commands being used more and more frequently as people want to manage their grid use. I don't see that going away. In terms of the Charger, the MATE3 does have a warning screen as you cycle the Charger through On/Off/Auto, to let you know what to expect. William, it is the original MATE which has reached its limits in terms of upgradability. All future development and updates are focusing on our MATE3 and AXS Port, and we release new features at least twice a year, if not quarterly. If you are afraid of homeowner "tinkeritis" you may want to look at our AXS Port -- our most recent update to its firmware gives it all of the intelligence and capabilities of our MATE3, only with zero buttons. All controls are via OpticsRE, our free web portal, and you can check in on all of your systems every morning if you wish. If you're not happy with the original generation MATE, I challenge you to take a new look at the MATE3. Respectfully yours, Phil Undercuffler Director of Strategic Platforms OutBack Power On Sunday, July 12, 2015, RE Ellison wrote: > I doubt that Outback could change the Mate and improve it. I still find it > difficult to deal with and switched to Magnum for that reason. > > In my opinion the “improvements” made to the MX 60 in moving to the FM 60 > were not an improvement. I have a customer with 2 identical racks and the > MX60 did better every time we checked. > > > > Just my opinion, > > Bob > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] > *On Behalf Of *jay > *Sent:* Sunday, July 12, 2015 12:23 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Mate Drop and Charge Functions > > > > Hi All, > > > > I’m with William, Its happened a number of times. > > > > But I doubt that outback is going to change anything with the mate 1. > > > > jay > > > > peltz power > > > > > > On Jul 12, 2015, at 9:00 AM, toddcory at finestplanet.com > wrote: > > > > i have had this happen, but only with one very elderly customer who didnt > know what he was doing. he is 93 now, and has wisely hired a neighbor to > maintain his system. > > > > having people "press buttons" who dont understand their function or > correct settings is a recipe for problems. a ruined battery bank is an > expensive lesson. > > > > in all my years of designing and building systems (mostly all off-grid) i > only had one customer who was so challenged with flying the system, that > after she destroyed two sets of battery banks in 5 years, she decided > living off-grid was too complicated, and she moved back to town. she rented > her place and the renters actually operated the system with no problem. > > > > the point is, some people are better at understanding and operating a > battery/inverter/solar system than others. sure, the MATE could be easier, > but i have never had any difficulty navigating and changing the menu > settings and options. usually it is "operator/customer error". > > > > todd > > > > bers.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Jul 12 23:06:24 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2015 20:06:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate Drop and Charge Functions In-Reply-To: <5B7063F4-B8D4-4C06-A983-BFD3B949F52F@gmail.com> References: <1436716813.80856850@webmail.finestplanet.com> <55A2B85F.3080501@solarray.com> <1A584B7A-21D0-4BF2-93EC-4161F43F9D39@starlightsolar.com> <5B7063F4-B8D4-4C06-A983-BFD3B949F52F@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On Jul 12, 2015, at 6:02 PM, jay wrote: > > HI Larry, > > I understand you but don’t agree. > And I’ve had so many problems with magnum inverters that I’m not using them any more unless there are no other options. > > jay > > > > >> On Jul 12, 2015, at 6:00 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: >> >> Hey Jay, >> >> Magnum Energy does do firmware updates on their remotes and even does it for free if the customer buys a product that requires it, e.g. ME-BMK or ME-AGS. The remote must be sent in to ME, though. >> >> The very idea that one must spend time with videos to understand how to operate their power system speaks to the reason for this thread. I was selling mostly Outback but had too many customers (far south into Mexico) screwing up the programming. >> >> I switched to Magnum Energy a few years ago and customer use problems basically went away. Using a Magnum Energy system is easy for the customer and as Dan Fink so aptly described, you can walk the customer through changes quickly. Even though we have several hundred Magnum inverters installed, this rarely happens. I will say, however, with the growing list of features, the manual is getting quite long. With the soon release of their new 100 amp charge controller, ME will have a complete solution through one remote. >> >> Larry Crutcher >> Starlight Solar Power Systems >> >> >> >> On Jul 12, 2015, at 4:37 PM, jay wrote: >> >> All the different remote controls have their pros/cons. >> However I find the web based videos from outback to be the most helpful of any. >> I refer folks to them more and more with really good results. >> >> I have a different view than some about locked out remotes. Its the customer’s system, not mine. >> I know some folks don’t even leave a remote at all. >> if they want to screw it up, thats their problem. >> And its the only way they will ever get to know their system and be empowered to run it. >> >> As to outback, I don’t believe they are going to spend any time/energy on the mate 1. >> And really the mate 3 should be completely redesigned as well but it does eliminate that problem that William started this with, which I’ve had many times over the year, people messing with it instead of AGS. >> >> And in Outbacks favor the ability to upgrade their mate 3, new CC and VFXR/Radian with a SD card is super easy. >> Magnum, no updating >> Schnieider, you’ll have to fight with the dongle >> SMA SI yep, SD card. >> >> that all said, getting to the 21st century with our remotes ( blue tooth, wifi, apps etc) would be really cool though. >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > From William.White at rgsenergy.com Mon Jul 13 08:29:25 2015 From: William.White at rgsenergy.com (Will White) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 12:29:25 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate Drop and Charge Functions In-Reply-To: <8D1FE9EC-3255-4190-BF18-C3562B60F5DA@millersolar.com> References: <8D1FE9EC-3255-4190-BF18-C3562B60F5DA@millersolar.com> Message-ID: I live off grid with an Outback system and I occasionally manually run my generator. I always drop the charging for a few minutes before I shut the generator off and I have to remember to put it back in Use or the generator won't charge the next time it automatically comes on. It's kind of a pain and I could see how a less savvy customer could mess this up pretty easily. Thanks, Will Will White Director of Construction - East Coast RGS Energy 64 Main St. |Montpelier, VT 05602 tel 802.223.7804 | mobile 802.234.3167 | fax 802.223.8980 RGSEnergy.com | william.white at rgsenergy.com Confidentiality Note: This e-mail message may contain confidential or legally privileged information and is intended only for the use of the intended recipient(s). Any unauthorized disclosure, dissemination, distribution, copying or the taking of any action in reliance on the information herein is prohibited. E-mails are not secure and cannot be guaranteed to be error free as they can be intercepted, amended, or contain viruses. Anyone who communicates with us by e-mail is deemed to have accepted these risks. RGS Energy is not responsible for errors or omissions in this message and denies any responsibility for any damage arising from the use of e-mail. Any opinion and other statement contained in this message and any attachment are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 3:31 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate Drop and Charge Functions Friends: How many of you have customers who have accidentally engaged the "drop" function or disabled all battery charge functions whilst simply trying to stop a generator or EQ cycle? I have seen customers ruin battery banks by mistaking these functions. I think it is a big mistake to put these similar-appearing functions together. The drop and charge functions really should be behind a password or deleted altogether. Either function can be accomplished by opening the correct circuit breaker. I am engaged in a conversation with Outback strongly encouraging them to fix this problem. More voices would help. William Miller _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From Steve.Jefferson at sma-america.com Mon Jul 13 10:58:29 2015 From: Steve.Jefferson at sma-america.com (Steve Jefferson) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 14:58:29 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island Sizing In-Reply-To: References: <3D0B04D8-11AE-4E39-9806-7575FF4C03B4@swnl.net> Message-ID: <41FE255D65D554478C3B17F3EB5410EF913A3746@SVR-US-EXMBX-01.sma.de> SMA no longer offers design for the Sunny Island. Contact me off list and I will get you contact info for a distributor that can assist in design. Our Contact Center will support the product once installed. Thanks SMA America, LLC Steve Jefferson Service Line Supervisor 3925 Atherton Ave Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714 U.S.A. Tel: +1 916 625 3185 (direct) Fax: +1 916 625 0871 Mobile: +1 916 622 4253 Email: Steve.jefferson at SMA-America.com www.SMA-America.com [cid:image001.png at 01CF1CFA.FE18BEB0] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Rodriguez Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2015 4:32 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island Sizing Still no luck with SMA. I did have one call back and waited for an email, with no avail. I have since sent numerous emails to people mentioned on this list. I hope the support after the sale is better! Not sure if I should even be putting this on the wrenches list or not. I know it doesn't apply to working in the field, but..... Jeremy Rodriguez All Solar, Inc. 1463 M Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! On Jun 25, 2015, at 4:07 PM, Tump > wrote: While they recently have down sized their staff I find this surprising. I have CCed an engineer and someone you can Btch slap...... enjoy Greg! TUMP Contact me off list if you still have a problem I do SI/SB installs On Jun 25, 2015, at 9:00 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: Hello So far I've been unsuccessful in getting SMA to return a call Does anyone have a direct line to one of their design engineers? •Off grid SI/SB 3Phase Help..... Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net Solarwinds Northernlights Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 Blair "TUMP" May ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 30736 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: From Steve.Jefferson at sma-america.com Mon Jul 13 10:59:26 2015 From: Steve.Jefferson at sma-america.com (Steve Jefferson) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 14:59:26 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island Sizing In-Reply-To: <5888CD3F-5350-46AB-B3C1-94AD6867718F@gmail.com> References: <3D0B04D8-11AE-4E39-9806-7575FF4C03B4@swnl.net> <5888CD3F-5350-46AB-B3C1-94AD6867718F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <41FE255D65D554478C3B17F3EB5410EF913A377E@SVR-US-EXMBX-01.sma.de> The Sunny Island is not going anywhere, in fact there are some great changes coming soon. SMA America, LLC Steve Jefferson Service Line Supervisor 3925 Atherton Ave Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714 U.S.A. Tel: +1 916 625 3185 (direct) Fax: +1 916 625 0871 Mobile: +1 916 622 4253 Email: Steve.jefferson at SMA-America.com www.SMA-America.com [cid:image001.png at 01CF1CFA.FE18BEB0] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2015 5:14 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island Sizing Out of curiosity what is the design question? And I'd heard rumors that SMA was dropping the SI in the USA. Know anyone going to intersolar? I bet there are Sma folks there Jay Sent from my iPhone On Jul 8, 2015, at 4:32 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez > wrote: Still no luck with SMA. I did have one call back and waited for an email, with no avail. I have since sent numerous emails to people mentioned on this list. I hope the support after the sale is better! Not sure if I should even be putting this on the wrenches list or not. I know it doesn't apply to working in the field, but..... Jeremy Rodriguez All Solar, Inc. 1463 M Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! On Jun 25, 2015, at 4:07 PM, Tump > wrote: While they recently have down sized their staff I find this surprising. I have CCed an engineer and someone you can Btch slap...... enjoy Greg! TUMP Contact me off list if you still have a problem I do SI/SB installs On Jun 25, 2015, at 9:00 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: Hello So far I've been unsuccessful in getting SMA to return a call Does anyone have a direct line to one of their design engineers? •Off grid SI/SB 3Phase Help..... Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net Solarwinds Northernlights Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 Blair "TUMP" May ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 30736 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: From Steve.Jefferson at sma-america.com Mon Jul 13 11:01:07 2015 From: Steve.Jefferson at sma-america.com (Steve Jefferson) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 15:01:07 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island Sizing In-Reply-To: <5B6FF830-B82F-4AD2-8113-75AEA36C7BFE@solarenergy.org> References: <3D0B04D8-11AE-4E39-9806-7575FF4C03B4@swnl.net> <5888CD3F-5350-46AB-B3C1-94AD6867718F@gmail.com> <5B6FF830-B82F-4AD2-8113-75AEA36C7BFE@solarenergy.org> Message-ID: <41FE255D65D554478C3B17F3EB5410EF913A379A@SVR-US-EXMBX-01.sma.de> SMA is extremely responsible when it comes to recycling our cans. NO cans were left illegally at intersolar last year. Thanks SMA America, LLC Steve Jefferson Service Line Supervisor 3925 Atherton Ave Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714 U.S.A. Tel: +1 916 625 3185 (direct) Fax: +1 916 625 0871 Mobile: +1 916 622 4253 Email: Steve.jefferson at SMA-America.com www.SMA-America.com [cid:image001.png at 01CF1CFA.FE18BEB0] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Brian Mehalic Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2015 6:06 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island Sizing Last year SMA didn't have a booth at Intersolar, just the company can illegally parked outside. Not sure about this year but I do know Greg Smith just left. Brian On Jul 8, 2015, at 8:13 PM, Jay > wrote: Out of curiosity what is the design question? And I'd heard rumors that SMA was dropping the SI in the USA. Know anyone going to intersolar? I bet there are Sma folks there Jay Sent from my iPhone On Jul 8, 2015, at 4:32 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez > wrote: Still no luck with SMA. I did have one call back and waited for an email, with no avail. I have since sent numerous emails to people mentioned on this list. I hope the support after the sale is better! Not sure if I should even be putting this on the wrenches list or not. I know it doesn't apply to working in the field, but..... Jeremy Rodriguez All Solar, Inc. 1463 M Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! On Jun 25, 2015, at 4:07 PM, Tump > wrote: While they recently have down sized their staff I find this surprising. I have CCed an engineer and someone you can Btch slap...... enjoy Greg! TUMP Contact me off list if you still have a problem I do SI/SB installs On Jun 25, 2015, at 9:00 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: Hello So far I've been unsuccessful in getting SMA to return a call Does anyone have a direct line to one of their design engineers? •Off grid SI/SB 3Phase Help..... Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net Solarwinds Northernlights Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 Blair "TUMP" May ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 30736 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: From dana at solarwork.com Mon Jul 13 10:36:00 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 08:36:00 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Clients & Mates In-Reply-To: <8B65AC0B-7762-48FA-9E23-436E2FF1CD98@gmail.com> References: <1436716813.80856850@webmail.finestplanet.com> <8B65AC0B-7762-48FA-9E23-436E2FF1CD98@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000c01d0bd79$3d7ed880$b87c8980$@com> In our solar society range of clients overall there are many younger & “older” clients that do very well with the Mate III and some that are total zeros on even basic comprehension of what the hey is going on. I have one sweet older guy in his early 70’s client in particular; who is very mechanically & construction savvy (built 7 ski areas in the Rocky Mountains) who cannot, (even after writing settings & procedures down over 4 times) get what battery bulk, absorption & float & EQ are all about. I initially tried to get him to use a sealed type battery, but no, he said he could handle the responsibility of a wet lead acid battery. He is at one end of the spectrum. There are folks that are older, less mechanically savvy with no electrical back ground what so ever that; after moving from Mate I to Mate III are elated as to the range features and especially the data on history. I cover this, Use VS Drop function very clearly as to the consequences and function and I have yet to have a single client issue on this aspect. Clients are like family you can try to train them but usually it’s pretty hopeless if they cannot or will not to learn. It’s their experience after all; there is the Grid for those that cannot handle the responsibility of being their own power system managers. Personal responsibility is a huge step for most in our society. One that many folks are not qualified to venture towards. Smile, breath, explain again slowly, draw pictures, replace the damage, be patient, & invoice……… ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2015 10:23 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Mate Drop and Charge Functions Hi All, I’m with William, Its happened a number of times. But I doubt that outback is going to change anything with the mate 1. jay peltz power On Jul 12, 2015, at 9:00 AM, toddcory at finestplanet.com wrote: i have had this happen, but only with one very elderly customer who didnt know what he was doing. he is 93 now, and has wisely hired a neighbor to maintain his system. having people "press buttons" who dont understand their function or correct settings is a recipe for problems. a ruined battery bank is an expensive lesson. in all my years of designing and building systems (mostly all off-grid) i only had one customer who was so challenged with flying the system, that after she destroyed two sets of battery banks in 5 years, she decided living off-grid was too complicated, and she moved back to town. she rented her place and the renters actually operated the system with no problem. the point is, some people are better at understanding and operating a battery/inverter/solar system than others. sure, the MATE could be easier, but i have never had any difficulty navigating and changing the menu settings and options. usually it is "operator/customer error". todd bers.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Mon Jul 13 11:12:43 2015 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 11:12:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island Sizing In-Reply-To: <41FE255D65D554478C3B17F3EB5410EF913A377E@SVR-US-EXMBX-01.sma.de> References: <3D0B04D8-11AE-4E39-9806-7575FF4C03B4@swnl.net> <5888CD3F-5350-46AB-B3C1-94AD6867718F@gmail.com> <41FE255D65D554478C3B17F3EB5410EF913A377E@SVR-US-EXMBX-01.sma.de> Message-ID: <021301d0bd7e$5e5ee270$1b1ca750$@solarandwindfx.com> All we want to hear from SMA on the SI is it is coming as a 240Vac unitJ Christopher Chris Schaefer’s SolarWindFX Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Steve Jefferson Sent: Monday, 13 July, 2015 10:59 To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island Sizing The Sunny Island is not going anywhere, in fact there are some great changes coming soon. SMA America, LLC Steve Jefferson Service Line Supervisor 3925 Atherton Ave Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714 U.S.A. Tel: +1 916 625 3185 (direct) Fax: +1 916 625 0871 Mobile: +1 916 622 4253 Email: Steve.jefferson at SMA-America.com www.SMA-America.com cid:image001.png at 01CF1CFA.FE18BEB0 This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2015 5:14 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island Sizing Out of curiosity what is the design question? And I'd heard rumors that SMA was dropping the SI in the USA. Know anyone going to intersolar? I bet there are Sma folks there Jay Sent from my iPhone On Jul 8, 2015, at 4:32 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: Still no luck with SMA. I did have one call back and waited for an email, with no avail. I have since sent numerous emails to people mentioned on this list. I hope the support after the sale is better! Not sure if I should even be putting this on the wrenches list or not. I know it doesn't apply to working in the field, but..... Jeremy Rodriguez All Solar, Inc. 1463 M Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! On Jun 25, 2015, at 4:07 PM, Tump wrote: While they recently have down sized their staff I find this surprising. I have CCed an engineer and someone you can Btch slap...... enjoy Greg! TUMP Contact me off list if you still have a problem I do SI/SB installs On Jun 25, 2015, at 9:00 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: Hello So far I've been unsuccessful in getting SMA to return a call Does anyone have a direct line to one of their design engineers? •Off grid SI/SB 3Phase Help..... Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net Solarwinds Northernlights Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 Blair "TUMP" May ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image011.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2566 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image012.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2385 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image013.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2816 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hiltondier at gmail.com Mon Jul 13 11:42:01 2015 From: hiltondier at gmail.com (Hilton Dier III) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 11:42:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] line shading Message-ID: <55A3DC49.3020509@gmail.com> Hello esteemed wrenches, I have a client who wants a ground mounted array. He has field with his power line running east-west across it to a pole with his meter on it and then buried conduit to his house. Because of the size of the array it makes sense to do a line side input at the pole. The field slopes down to a river, so we would like to stay back from the lowlands to avoid flooding and saturated soil. The problem is that the really high ground is to the north of the power line. Is there any received wisdom out there about how far to put modules from a power line to avoid line shading? I know that we can check the solstice sun angles against the wire height and top and bottom heights of the array. But if the array ends up inside that angle range, how far away does it have to be for that shadow to interfere into a non-issue? Thanks, Hilton -- Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Partner, Solar Gain LLC 453 East Hill Rd. Middlesex, VT 05602 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hiltondier at gmail.com Mon Jul 13 11:52:18 2015 From: hiltondier at gmail.com (Hilton Dier III) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 11:52:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Clients and mates Message-ID: <55A3DEB2.8000200@gmail.com> After reading this I get the idea that there should be an aptitude test for potential off-grid clients. "No, I'm sorry, you failed basic battery maintenance. You'll have to go with sealed batteries and a service contract." I think we all eyeball clients with this kind of thought in mind. I had an off grid client with a 48 volt battery bank, the usual 8 each 6 volt batteries. He was dissatisfied with its performance so without consulting me he added four more batteries to the string. Then he called me to complain when that set was truly hosed. I went to his site, not knowing what he had done, and opened the battery box. Y'know those old wood-block prints of angry samurai warriors with squinted/bulging eyes? I must have looked kind of like that. I'll say it again: The most important client is the one you turn away. -- Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Partner, Solar Gain LLC 453 East Hill Rd. Middlesex, VT 05602 Tel: 802-223-6652 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Mon Jul 13 12:58:40 2015 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 12:58:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC conductors in metallic raceway/conduit In-Reply-To: <55A3DC49.3020509@gmail.com> References: <55A3DC49.3020509@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55A3EE40.8070900@entech-engineering.com> I was under the assumption that dc conductors could only be run inside a building when in metallic raceway/conduit (up to a readily accessible disconnect switch) . The building being occupied/residence. A contractor ran 5 feet of pvc from the wall penetration to the charge controller in a concrete block garage. I don't see anything that allows this by what I find in the NEC. Has anyone have a reference that permits this? Thank you for any assistance. -- Christopher Warfel, President ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 100 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Mon Jul 13 12:55:11 2015 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 09:55:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island Sizing In-Reply-To: <021301d0bd7e$5e5ee270$1b1ca750$@solarandwindfx.com> References: <3D0B04D8-11AE-4E39-9806-7575FF4C03B4@swnl.net> <5888CD3F-5350-46AB-B3C1-94AD6867718F@gmail.com> <41FE255D65D554478C3B17F3EB5410EF913A377E@SVR-US-EXMBX-01.sma.de> <021301d0bd7e$5e5ee270$1b1ca750$@solarandwindfx.com> Message-ID: <7EEB9E5D-B288-4817-909D-0ED2697379AB@villagepowerdesign.com> Yes Christopher - well actually we want to hear its coming in Split Phase 120/240 VAC. ! Sent from my iPhone On Jul 13, 2015, at 8:12 AM, "Chris Schaefer" wrote: > All we want to hear from SMA on the SI is it is coming as a 240Vac unitJ > > Christopher > Chris Schaefer’s > > Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 > 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > > > > > > > > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Steve Jefferson > Sent: Monday, 13 July, 2015 10:59 > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island Sizing > > The Sunny Island is not going anywhere, in fact there are some great changes coming soon. > > SMA America, LLC > Steve Jefferson > Service Line Supervisor > 3925 Atherton Ave > Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714 > U.S.A. > Tel: +1 916 625 3185 (direct) > Fax: +1 916 625 0871 > Mobile: +1 916 622 4253 > Email: Steve.jefferson at SMA-America.com > www.SMA-America.com > > > > This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay > Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2015 5:14 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island Sizing > > Out of curiosity what is the design question? > > And I'd heard rumors that SMA was dropping the SI in the USA. > > Know anyone going to intersolar? I bet there are Sma folks there > > Jay > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jul 8, 2015, at 4:32 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > > Still no luck with SMA. > I did have one call back and waited for an email, with no avail. I have since sent numerous emails to people mentioned on this list. > I hope the support after the sale is better! Not sure if I should even be putting this on the wrenches list or not. I know it doesn't apply to working in the field, but..... > > Jeremy Rodriguez > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > > On Jun 25, 2015, at 4:07 PM, Tump wrote: > > While they recently have down sized their staff I find this surprising. I have CCed an engineer and someone you can Btch slap...... enjoy Greg! TUMP > Contact me off list if you still have a problem I do SI/SB installs > On Jun 25, 2015, at 9:00 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > > > Hello > So far I've been unsuccessful in getting SMA to return a call > Does anyone have a direct line to one of their design engineers? > •Off grid SI/SB 3Phase > Help..... > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation And Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Mon Jul 13 13:01:27 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 11:01:27 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC conductors in metallic raceway/conduit In-Reply-To: <55A3EE40.8070900@entech-engineering.com> References: <55A3DC49.3020509@gmail.com> <55A3EE40.8070900@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <001b01d0bd8d$8f168300$ad438900$@com> Your assumption is the rule here. Metal inside a building envelope and it cannot transition at the penetration it must be metal before entry. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Christopher Warfel Sent: Monday, July 13, 2015 10:59 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC conductors in metallic raceway/conduit I was under the assumption that dc conductors could only be run inside a building when in metallic raceway/conduit (up to a readily accessible disconnect switch) . The building being occupied/residence. A contractor ran 5 feet of pvc from the wall penetration to the charge controller in a concrete block garage. I don't see anything that allows this by what I find in the NEC. Has anyone have a reference that permits this? Thank you for any assistance. -- Christopher Warfel, President ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 From danbob88 at gmail.com Mon Jul 13 14:11:51 2015 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 12:11:51 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate Drop and Charge Functions In-Reply-To: References: <8D1FE9EC-3255-4190-BF18-C3562B60F5DA@millersolar.com> Message-ID: This is a great list and great conversation. Phil, I'd love to try the Mate 3, but the price point on it, flexnet DC and hub (or whatever the new one is called) is really high. A hard sell.My 'challenge' is getting a customer to buy it since I specialize in small, very remote off grid systems. Jay, I have problems with Magnum too especially with load surge performance, and certain generator models that it just won't play nice with for charging. And in my own personal off-grid situation, making Magnum play nice with NiFe batteries, but the remote tipped my scales to Magnum. On a side note, password protection features on a Bogart system monitor and outback charge controller saved my butt a few years ago. The client was an irresponsible 23 year old trust fund baby, and he burned through 8 nice L-16s in a year and said it was my fault. He tried to scramble all the settings to erase DOD and votage readings, but could only erase recent info. Lawyers involved, etc, and the meeting was under an hour -- unlock the 2 units with the password, show the lawyer the data, and give him a copy of my battery care/maintenance booklet and maint logs (untouched). Even got the contract to replace the batteries before the place went up for sale. Dan Fink Buckville Energy IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 6:29 AM, Will White wrote: > I live off grid with an Outback system and I occasionally manually run my > generator. I always drop the charging for a few minutes before I shut the > generator off and I have to remember to put it back in Use or the generator > won't charge the next time it automatically comes on. It's kind of a pain > and I could see how a less savvy customer could mess this up pretty easily. > > Thanks, > Will > > Will White > Director of Construction - East Coast > RGS Energy > > 64 Main St. |Montpelier, VT 05602 > tel 802.223.7804 | mobile 802.234.3167 | fax 802.223.8980 > RGSEnergy.com | william.white at rgsenergy.com > Confidentiality Note: This e-mail message may contain confidential or > legally privileged information and is intended only for the use of the > intended recipient(s). Any unauthorized disclosure, dissemination, > distribution, copying or the taking of any action in reliance on the > information herein is prohibited. E-mails are not secure and cannot be > guaranteed to be error free as they can be intercepted, amended, or contain > viruses. Anyone who communicates with us by e-mail is deemed to have > accepted these risks. RGS Energy is not responsible for errors or omissions > in this message and denies any responsibility for any damage arising from > the use of e-mail. Any opinion and other statement contained in this > message and any attachment are solely those of the author and do not > necessarily represent those of the company. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of William Miller > Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 3:31 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate Drop and Charge Functions > > Friends: > > How many of you have customers who have accidentally engaged the "drop" > function or disabled all battery charge functions whilst simply trying to > stop a generator or EQ cycle? I have seen customers ruin battery banks by > mistaking these functions. > > I think it is a big mistake to put these similar-appearing functions > together. The drop and charge functions really should be behind a password > or deleted altogether. Either function can be accomplished by opening the > correct circuit breaker. > > I am engaged in a conversation with Outback strongly encouraging them to > fix this problem. More voices would help. > > William Miller > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Mon Jul 13 14:31:45 2015 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 14:31:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island Sizing In-Reply-To: <7EEB9E5D-B288-4817-909D-0ED2697379AB@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <3D0B04D8-11AE-4E39-9806-7575FF4C03B4@swnl.net> <5888CD3F-5350-46AB-B3C1-94AD6867718F@gmail.com> <41FE255D65D554478C3B17F3EB5410EF913A377E@SVR-US-EXMBX-01.sma.de> <021301d0bd7e$5e5ee270$1b1ca750$@solarandwindfx.com> <7EEB9E5D-B288-4817-909D-0ED2697379AB@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <002b01d0bd9a$2ce89e40$86b9dac0$@burt@glbcc.com> I remember this promise 3-4 years ago – the 240VAC version was coming ‘real soon now’… From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Clearwater Sent: Monday, July 13, 2015 12:55 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island Sizing Yes Christopher - well actually we want to hear its coming in Split Phase 120/240 VAC. ! Sent from my iPhone On Jul 13, 2015, at 8:12 AM, "Chris Schaefer" wrote: All we want to hear from SMA on the SI is it is coming as a 240Vac unitJ Christopher Chris Schaefer’s Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Steve Jefferson Sent: Monday, 13 July, 2015 10:59 To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island Sizing The Sunny Island is not going anywhere, in fact there are some great changes coming soon. SMA America, LLC Steve Jefferson Service Line Supervisor 3925 Atherton Ave Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714 U.S.A. Tel: +1 916 625 3185 (direct) Fax: +1 916 625 0871 Mobile: +1 916 622 4253 Email: Steve.jefferson at SMA-America.com www.SMA-America.com This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2015 5:14 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island Sizing Out of curiosity what is the design question? And I'd heard rumors that SMA was dropping the SI in the USA. Know anyone going to intersolar? I bet there are Sma folks there Jay Sent from my iPhone On Jul 8, 2015, at 4:32 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: Still no luck with SMA. I did have one call back and waited for an email, with no avail. I have since sent numerous emails to people mentioned on this list. I hope the support after the sale is better! Not sure if I should even be putting this on the wrenches list or not. I know it doesn't apply to working in the field, but..... Jeremy Rodriguez All Solar, Inc. 1463 M Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! On Jun 25, 2015, at 4:07 PM, Tump wrote: While they recently have down sized their staff I find this surprising. I have CCed an engineer and someone you can Btch slap...... enjoy Greg! TUMP Contact me off list if you still have a problem I do SI/SB installs On Jun 25, 2015, at 9:00 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: Hello So far I've been unsuccessful in getting SMA to return a call Does anyone have a direct line to one of their design engineers? •Off grid SI/SB 3Phase Help..... Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net Solarwinds Northernlights Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 Blair "TUMP" May ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Mon Jul 13 15:09:27 2015 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (markf at berkeleysolar.com) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 12:09:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island Sizing In-Reply-To: <41FE255D65D554478C3B17F3EB5410EF913A377E@SVR-US-EXMBX-01.sma.de> References: <3D0B04D8-11AE-4E39-9806-7575FF4C03B4@swnl.net> <5888CD3F-5350-46AB-B3C1-94AD6867718F@gmail.com> <41FE255D65D554478C3B17F3EB5410EF913A377E@SVR-US-EXMBX-01.sma.de> Message-ID: <50235.66.117.140.17.1436814567.squirrel@webmail.lmi.net> So when these great changes come out, we have to call a distributor to learn about them? > The Sunny Island is not going anywhere, in fact there are some great > changes coming soon. > > SMA America, LLC > Steve Jefferson > Service Line Supervisor > 3925 Atherton Ave > Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714 > U.S.A. > Tel: +1 916 625 3185 (direct) > Fax: +1 916 625 0871 > Mobile: +1 916 622 4253 > Email: > Steve.jefferson at SMA-America.com > www.SMA-America.com > > [cid:image001.png at 01CF1CFA.FE18BEB0] > > This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC > confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the > intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or > any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not > the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and > permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any > attachments thereto. Thank you. > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Jay > Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2015 5:14 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island Sizing > > Out of curiosity what is the design question? > > And I'd heard rumors that SMA was dropping the SI in the USA. > > Know anyone going to intersolar? I bet there are Sma folks there > > Jay > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jul 8, 2015, at 4:32 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez > > wrote: > Still no luck with SMA. > I did have one call back and waited for an email, with no avail. I have > since sent numerous emails to people mentioned on this list. > I hope the support after the sale is better! Not sure if I should even be > putting this on the wrenches list or not. I know it doesn't apply to > working in the field, but..... > > Jeremy Rodriguez > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > > On Jun 25, 2015, at 4:07 PM, Tump > > wrote: > While they recently have down sized their staff I find this surprising. I > have CCed an engineer and someone you can Btch slap...... enjoy Greg! > TUMP > Contact me off list if you still have a problem I do SI/SB installs > On Jun 25, 2015, at 9:00 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > > > Hello > So far I've been unsuccessful in getting SMA to return a call > Does anyone have a direct line to one of their design engineers? > •Off grid SI/SB 3Phase > Help..... > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation And Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: > RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net > > www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: > RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: > RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From Steve.Jefferson at sma-america.com Mon Jul 13 15:17:08 2015 From: Steve.Jefferson at sma-america.com (Steve Jefferson) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 19:17:08 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island Sizing In-Reply-To: <50235.66.117.140.17.1436814567.squirrel@webmail.lmi.net> References: <3D0B04D8-11AE-4E39-9806-7575FF4C03B4@swnl.net> <5888CD3F-5350-46AB-B3C1-94AD6867718F@gmail.com> <41FE255D65D554478C3B17F3EB5410EF913A377E@SVR-US-EXMBX-01.sma.de> <50235.66.117.140.17.1436814567.squirrel@webmail.lmi.net> Message-ID: <41FE255D65D554478C3B17F3EB5410EF913A4354@SVR-US-EXMBX-01.sma.de> Let's not be dramatic. Of course our marketing and sales team will feature new products when they are coming to market. Thanks SMA America, LLC Steve Jefferson Contact Center Supervisor 3925 Atherton Ave Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714 U.S.A. Tel:  +1 916 625 3185 (direct) Fax: +1 916 625 0871 Mobile: +1 916 622 4253 Email: Steve.jefferson at SMA-America.com www.SMA-America.com   This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of markf at berkeleysolar.com Sent: Monday, July 13, 2015 12:09 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island Sizing So when these great changes come out, we have to call a distributor to learn about them? > The Sunny Island is not going anywhere, in fact there are some great > changes coming soon. > > SMA America, LLC > Steve Jefferson > Service Line Supervisor > 3925 Atherton Ave > Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714 > U.S.A. > Tel: +1 916 625 3185 (direct) > Fax: +1 916 625 0871 > Mobile: +1 916 622 4253 > Email: > Steve.jefferson at SMA-America.com > www.SMA-America.com > > [cid:image001.png at 01CF1CFA.FE18BEB0] WzPuyqhzo&feature=youtu.be> > > This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC > confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the > intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email > (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you > are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately > and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and > any attachments thereto. Thank you. > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > On Behalf Of Jay > Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2015 5:14 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island Sizing > > Out of curiosity what is the design question? > > And I'd heard rumors that SMA was dropping the SI in the USA. > > Know anyone going to intersolar? I bet there are Sma folks there > > Jay > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jul 8, 2015, at 4:32 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez > > wrote: > Still no luck with SMA. > I did have one call back and waited for an email, with no avail. I > have since sent numerous emails to people mentioned on this list. > I hope the support after the sale is better! Not sure if I should even > be putting this on the wrenches list or not. I know it doesn't apply > to working in the field, but..... > > Jeremy Rodriguez > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > > On Jun 25, 2015, at 4:07 PM, Tump > > > wrote: > While they recently have down sized their staff I find this > surprising. I have CCed an engineer and someone you can Btch slap...... enjoy Greg! > TUMP > Contact me off list if you still have a problem I do SI/SB installs On > Jun 25, 2015, at 9:00 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > > > Hello > So far I've been unsuccessful in getting SMA to return a call Does > anyone have a direct line to one of their design engineers? > •Off grid SI/SB 3Phase > Help..... > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation And Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: > RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org .org> > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm .htm> > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net ilto:Tump at swnl.net> > > www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: > RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org .org> > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm .htm> > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: > RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org .org> > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm .htm> > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From solar1online at charter.net Mon Jul 13 21:51:39 2015 From: solar1online at charter.net (Bill Loesch) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 20:51:39 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island Sizing In-Reply-To: <41FE255D65D554478C3B17F3EB5410EF913A4354@SVR-US-EXMBX-01.sma.de> References: <3D0B04D8-11AE-4E39-9806-7575FF4C03B4@swnl.net> <5888CD3F-5350-46AB-B3C1-94AD6867718F@gmail.com> <41FE255D65D554478C3B17F3EB5410EF913A377E@SVR-US-EXMBX-01.sma.de> <50235.66.117.140.17.1436814567.squirrel@webmail.lmi.net> <41FE255D65D554478C3B17F3EB5410EF913A4354@SVR-US-EXMBX-01.sma.de> Message-ID: <55A46B2B.6000808@charter.net> Steve, "Let's not be dramatic."(?) Three messages on the same subject in three minutes? Please, please, "Let's not be dramatic." I'm glad your multiple posts slipped by the Moderator, it shows your foresight, planning and motivation. If this newsgroup is going to assist fellow wrenches, then I must ask, "Why, out of all the products that SMA manufactures/supports has the Sunny Boy design assistance fell out of disfavor? That info might be more relevant than your other responses and why the RE-_wrenches_ is open to manufacturers. Respectfully, Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 On 13-Jul-15 2:17 PM, Steve Jefferson wrote: > Let's not be dramatic. > > Of course our marketing and sales team will feature new products when they are coming to market. > > Thanks > > SMA America, LLC > Steve Jefferson > Contact Center Supervisor > 3925 Atherton Ave > Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714 > U.S.A. > Tel: +1 916 625 3185 (direct) > Fax: +1 916 625 0871 > Mobile: +1 916 622 4253 > Email: Steve.jefferson at SMA-America.com > www.SMA-America.com > > > > This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of markf at berkeleysolar.com > Sent: Monday, July 13, 2015 12:09 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island Sizing > > So when these great changes come out, we have to call a distributor to learn about them? > >> The Sunny Island is not going anywhere, in fact there are some great >> changes coming soon. >> >> SMA America, LLC >> Steve Jefferson >> Service Line Supervisor >> 3925 Atherton Ave >> Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714 >> U.S.A. >> Tel: +1 916 625 3185 (direct) >> Fax: +1 916 625 0871 >> Mobile: +1 916 622 4253 >> Email: >> Steve.jefferson at SMA-America.com>> www.SMA-America.com >> [cid:image001.png at 01CF1CFA.FE18BEB0]> WzPuyqhzo&feature=youtu.be> >> >> This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC >> confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the >> intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email >> (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you >> are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately >> and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and >> any attachments thereto. Thank you. >> >> >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] >> On Behalf Of Jay >> Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2015 5:14 PM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island Sizing >> >> Out of curiosity what is the design question? >> >> And I'd heard rumors that SMA was dropping the SI in the USA. >> >> Know anyone going to intersolar? I bet there are Sma folks there >> >> Jay >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Jul 8, 2015, at 4:32 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez >> > wrote: >> Still no luck with SMA. >> I did have one call back and waited for an email, with no avail. I >> have since sent numerous emails to people mentioned on this list. >> I hope the support after the sale is better! Not sure if I should even >> be putting this on the wrenches list or not. I know it doesn't apply >> to working in the field, but..... >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> All Solar, Inc. >> 1463 M >> Penrose Colorado 81240 >> >> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! >> >> On Jun 25, 2015, at 4:07 PM, Tump >> > >> wrote: >> While they recently have down sized their staff I find this >> surprising. I have CCed an engineer and someone you can Btch slap...... enjoy Greg! >> TUMP >> Contact me off list if you still have a problem I do SI/SB installs On >> Jun 25, 2015, at 9:00 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: >> >> >> Hello >> So far I've been unsuccessful in getting SMA to return a call Does >> anyone have a direct line to one of their design engineers? >> •Off grid SI/SB 3Phase >> Help..... >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> Solar Installation And Design Expert >> All Solar, Inc. >> 1463 M >> Penrose Colorado 81240 >> >> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: >> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> .org> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist >> .html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm> .htm> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> Tump at swnl.net> ilto:Tump at swnl.net> >> >> www.SWNL.net >> Solarwinds Northernlights >> Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California >> 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 >> Blair "TUMP" May >> >> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" >> >> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: >> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> .org> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist >> .html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm> .htm> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: >> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> .org> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist >> .html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm> .htm> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist >> .html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2015.0.6081 / Virus Database: 4392/10224 - Release Date: 07/13/15 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6081 / Virus Database: 4392/10224 - Release Date: 07/13/15 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solar1online at charter.net Mon Jul 13 21:55:45 2015 From: solar1online at charter.net (Bill Loesch) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 20:55:45 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island Sizing In-Reply-To: <55A46B2B.6000808@charter.net> References: <3D0B04D8-11AE-4E39-9806-7575FF4C03B4@swnl.net> <5888CD3F-5350-46AB-B3C1-94AD6867718F@gmail.com> <41FE255D65D554478C3B17F3EB5410EF913A377E@SVR-US-EXMBX-01.sma.de> <50235.66.117.140.17.1436814567.squirrel@webmail.lmi.net> <41FE255D65D554478C3B17F3EB5410EF913A4354@SVR-US-EXMBX-01.sma.de> <55A46B2B.6000808@charter.net> Message-ID: <55A46C21.5040801@charter.net> Sunny Boy design assistance should have been Sunny Island design assistance. Sorry for the typo. Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 On 13-Jul-15 8:51 PM, Bill Loesch wrote: > > Steve, > > "Let's not be dramatic."(?) Three messages on the same subject in > three minutes? Please, please, "Let's not be dramatic." I'm glad your > multiple posts slipped by the Moderator, it shows your foresight, > planning and motivation. > If this newsgroup is going to assist fellow wrenches, then I must ask, > "Why, out of all the products that SMA manufactures/supports has the > Sunny Boy design assistance fell out of disfavor? That info might be > more relevant than your other responses and why the RE-_wrenches_ is > open to manufacturers. > > Respectfully, > Bill Loesch > Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar > 314 631 1094 > On 13-Jul-15 2:17 PM, Steve Jefferson wrote: >> Let's not be dramatic. >> >> Of course our marketing and sales team will feature new products when they are coming to market. >> >> Thanks >> >> SMA America, LLC >> Steve Jefferson >> Contact Center Supervisor >> 3925 Atherton Ave >> Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714 >> U.S.A. >> Tel: +1 916 625 3185 (direct) >> Fax: +1 916 625 0871 >> Mobile: +1 916 622 4253 >> Email:Steve.jefferson at SMA-America.com >> www.SMA-America.com >> >> >> >> This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Ofmarkf at berkeleysolar.com >> Sent: Monday, July 13, 2015 12:09 PM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island Sizing >> >> So when these great changes come out, we have to call a distributor to learn about them? >> >>> The Sunny Island is not going anywhere, in fact there are some great >>> changes coming soon. >>> >>> SMA America, LLC >>> Steve Jefferson >>> Service Line Supervisor >>> 3925 Atherton Ave >>> Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714 >>> U.S.A. >>> Tel: +1 916 625 3185 (direct) >>> Fax: +1 916 625 0871 >>> Mobile: +1 916 622 4253 >>> Email: >>> Steve.jefferson at SMA-America.com>>> www.SMA-America.com >>> [cid:image001.png at 01CF1CFA.FE18BEB0]>> WzPuyqhzo&feature=youtu.be> >>> >>> This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC >>> confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the >>> intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email >>> (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you >>> are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately >>> and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and >>> any attachments thereto. Thank you. >>> >>> >>> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] >>> On Behalf Of Jay >>> Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2015 5:14 PM >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island Sizing >>> >>> Out of curiosity what is the design question? >>> >>> And I'd heard rumors that SMA was dropping the SI in the USA. >>> >>> Know anyone going to intersolar? I bet there are Sma folks there >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Jul 8, 2015, at 4:32 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez >>> > wrote: >>> Still no luck with SMA. >>> I did have one call back and waited for an email, with no avail. I >>> have since sent numerous emails to people mentioned on this list. >>> I hope the support after the sale is better! Not sure if I should even >>> be putting this on the wrenches list or not. I know it doesn't apply >>> to working in the field, but..... >>> >>> Jeremy Rodriguez >>> All Solar, Inc. >>> 1463 M >>> Penrose Colorado 81240 >>> >>> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! >>> >>> On Jun 25, 2015, at 4:07 PM, Tump >>> > >>> wrote: >>> While they recently have down sized their staff I find this >>> surprising. I have CCed an engineer and someone you can Btch slap...... enjoy Greg! >>> TUMP >>> Contact me off list if you still have a problem I do SI/SB installs On >>> Jun 25, 2015, at 9:00 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hello >>> So far I've been unsuccessful in getting SMA to return a call Does >>> anyone have a direct line to one of their design engineers? >>> •Off grid SI/SB 3Phase >>> Help..... >>> >>> Jeremy Rodriguez >>> Solar Installation And Design Expert >>> All Solar, Inc. >>> 1463 M >>> Penrose Colorado 81240 >>> >>> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: >>> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>> .org> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist >>> .html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm>> .htm> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Tump at swnl.net>> ilto:Tump at swnl.net> >>> >>> www.SWNL.net >>> Solarwinds Northernlights >>> Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California >>> 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 >>> Blair "TUMP" May >>> >>> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>> NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" >>> >>> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>> Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: >>> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>> .org> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist >>> .html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm>> .htm> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: >>> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>> .org> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist >>> .html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm>> .htm> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist >>> .html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG -www.avg.com >> Version: 2015.0.6081 / Virus Database: 4392/10224 - Release Date: 07/13/15 > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2015.0.6081 / Virus Database: 4392/10224 - Release Date: 07/13/15 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2015.0.6081 / Virus Database: 4392/10224 - Release Date: 07/13/15 > ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6081 / Virus Database: 4392/10224 - Release Date: 07/13/15 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davis at mckernongroup.com Tue Jul 14 07:21:10 2015 From: davis at mckernongroup.com (Davis Terrell) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 11:21:10 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarBridge Inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We have had some problems with the SolarBridge inverters. I have replaced 3, with another 3 just received in the mail, at one site of 22, 1 at a site of 27 and 4 at a site of 17. They have been both ET and Mage make. SunPower has been pretty good about replacing them, although who knows how long that will last, and SolarBridge was always good about warranty issues, but Mage NEVER was. Contact me off-list for a good person to talk to at SunPower. Thanks, Davis Terrell Project Manager Green Earth Energy davis at mckernongroup.com office: (802) 247-1200 mobile: (802) 989-1661 Hi Rebecca, My experience with ACPV is all SunPower but I imagine that the SolarBridge product is similar to what is used with BenQ. We have something in the range of 500 SunPower ACPV modules installed, almost all of the gen 1 SolarBridge variety. We?ve had several problems with the ACPV supervisor monitoring box but probably only a half dozen or so micro failures spread out on different sites. We definitely haven?t had a group of micros go down like you?re experiencing. Are you aware that the connectors are very finicky? The gen 1 connectors were very problematic and if not carefully and fully seated there can be connection issues. I wonder if part of your pain is due to the SunPower acquisition of SolarBridge. Is BenQ still selling their ACPV product? Certainly we deal with SunPower RMAs on a daily basis and they are responsive. Sorry I don?t have much more concrete ideas for you, but I thought I?d share my experience just so you have a reference point. Best, August Luminalt * Does anyone else have installations of the AUO/BenQ AC modules in the field? If not, do you have other brand installations of AC modules with SolarBridge microinverters? We have a site in MN that has modules installed in 2011, and a phase two in 2013. The overall performance is exceptional. However, we have had many inverters (9 at most recent count) at this residential site fail, and it does not seem to be slowing down. Our customer is notably concerned about the long term scenario for his product, because we are doing the O and M on good will and we won't be doing this forever. I do not need a lecture on O and M and residential customer service, I choose highest quality products and understand the expected risk involved (we do not do battery systems). But this product is proving to be more challenging than any others, and the manufacturer (when they respond) says nobody else has any issues, we are an anomoly.. We are receiving RMA units but not a stipend for replacement (and the site is 45 minutes away). BenQ said they would replace the entire unit, but they are really sending a new microinverter and we have to replace that on the roof. The screws and attachments were not designed to be used more than once... BenQ says they have a stipend for replacement, but realistically we have not received it after years of this repair stuff and invoices being sent, etc. At first our BenQ rep was very responsive. Recently I send four or five emails and get no response. At one point the BenQ rep copied the SunPower tech support person in the response (because SolarBridge sold to SunPower) but I have not heard a word from them either. Does anyone know how these companies are doing? We chose a product that appeared to have bankable companies behind them even if they were a bit new to solar, but right now BenQ, AUO, and SunPower have all been silent for many weeks. Most recently I replaced three microinveters at the site but a return label for the box was not included. I emailed and emailed and emailed and called, asking if they wanted the units back so they could test them and try to figure out what is going wrong, but have received NO response from anyone. I was told that there are no problems on any other site but mine. Sure, maybe MN winter is different from CA, but there must be others experiencing something like this. I would welcome any input. From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue Jul 14 09:01:34 2015 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 07:01:34 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generac QT series In-Reply-To: <9C26EC4D-DE54-4C5C-8486-7ED0896D5650@gmail.com> References: <128C1A1E-6A75-470C-905E-73EFDDEA62B8@sensata.com> <9C26EC4D-DE54-4C5C-8486-7ED0896D5650@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello wrenches, Last December I posted about a Magnum 4448 and a Generac 22 kW generator that aren't working well together. The symptom was that the Magnum transformer would overheat very quickly, even at very low charge rates (<2A DC). We have verified 120/240 VAC operation of the generator. We were able to get up to the site with an oscilloscope and see if we could find anything out. I've attached some photos of the oscilloscope output. I don't have anything to compare it to, so I'd like to see if anyone has some insight into why this may be occurring. The 4 photos are as follows (all photos L1-L2): 1. Generator Waveform No Load: Unloaded Generator Voltage Waveform 2. Charger 1st Connected: AC Input Voltage waveform immediately after charger connects 3. Steady State Operation Editted: AC Input Voltage waveform after about 10 seconds, this waveform continues until transformer overheats (in about 2 minutes) Note the disturbances. 4. Zoomed In Ripple: Closer view of the disturbances noted in #3. We have tried replacing the Magnum with an identical unit, and we had the same issue. We also tried a Honda 6500 with atrocious voltage and frequency regulation and it worked fine with the Magnum. Since I did not sell him the generator, the easy out is to replace the generator. However, there is some custom exhaust duct work and it will be much more expensive to replace the generator than to try a new inverter. I think that over all it is preferable for the client to replace the inverter/charger with a different brand. I have no problem doing that except that I'd like to be relatively sure that this is anomalous behavior between the Magnum and the Generac and not a generator issue. What are the chances that I'd have the same issue with a different inverter? What might cause this? All voltage and frequency measurements have been perfect with the Generac. Your comments or thoughts are appreciated. Thanks On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 11:15 AM, RE Ellison wrote: > If memory serves me correctly and this is the off grid Generac they are > available as a 120 volt and it takes a new breaker and rewiring to get 120 > / 240 out of them > > I run into this in the past they actually had it wired for 240 into a > balancing transformer to feed 120 into the inverter > > We could've just left it at 120 volt > > Later, > Bob ellison > > > Bob Ellison > > On Dec 16, 2014, at 11:33 AM, "Baxter, Gary" wrote: > > Hi Mac, > Jay just had the same issue and it was 120v from the gen instead of > 120/240. The inverter was charging using half the windings causing it to > Overtemp. > > Check the 60A breakers on the side of the inverter. Also make sure to > remove the wires from the input terminal block before measuring voltage as > the inverter will make 120v look like 120/240v at the terminals. > > If the generator is 3 Phase it won't work with this inverter unless you > only use one leg. This will work but you will need to turn the charge rate > to 50% in order to prevent Overtemp. Sometimes it works as high as 70%. > > Gary Baxter > Product Manager > Magnum/Dimensions > > On Dec 15, 2014, at 12:12 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Hi jarmo, > > We have verified this is split phase 120/240. My multimeter gets 120 L-N > and 240 L-L. > > Thanks > On Dec 15, 2014 10:25 AM, wrote: > >> Hi: >> >> The Generac QT02224GNAX ships as a three-phase 120/208 VAC. I believe >> the Magnum is a 120/240 VAC. >> >> JARMO >> >> _____________________________________________________________________________________ >> >> * Jarmo Venalainen* | * Schneider Electric ** | Solar Business* | >> *CANADA* | *Training & Development Specialist - Senior* >> * Phone:* +604-422-2528 | *Fax:* +604-420-1591 | *Mobile:* >> +604-505-0291 >> * Email:* *jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com* >> | *Site:** www.SEsolar.com* >> | *Address:* 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC >> V5G4M1 >> >> >> *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail >> >> >> >> From: Mac Lewis To: RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>, Date: 12/15/2014 05:52 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] >> Generac QT series Sent by: "RE-wrenches" < >> re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org> >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> >> Hello wrenches, >> >> We have a newly installed system that has a 22 kW Generac Quiet Source >> QT02224GNAX with a Magnum MS4448-PAE. When we start the generator, the >> Magnum's internal transformer temperature climbs to overtemp (240F) within >> a 2 minutes. The batteries are being floated at the time, and haven't seen >> more than 5A coming out of the generator. We swapped the Magnum out, and >> we have the exact same issue. We then got a job-site gas generator 6500W >> and ran it. No problem whatsoever. The problem appears to be with the >> Generac, or with the interaction between the Generac & the Magnum. I >> didn't have a scope on site but the fluke multimeter doesn't detect >> anything wrong with the voltage or frequency coming from the Generac. >> >> Has anyone had issues with the Generac QT? Anyone paired one with a >> Magnum PAE before? I want to get my scope up there and look for triplen >> harmonics, but I'm not sure how to filter these out. Any references on how >> to effectively do that is appreciated. >> >> Thanks in advance >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >> >> >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: Zoomed In Ripple.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 127882 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Tue Jul 14 09:18:02 2015 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 09:18:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generac QT series In-Reply-To: References: <128C1A1E-6A75-470C-905E-73EFDDEA62B8@sensata.com> <9C26EC4D-DE54-4C5C-8486-7ED0896D5650@gmail.com> Message-ID: I suggest you get a Fluke 435 and put it on the Generac output. I would expect this to be a power factor problem, the inductive nature of the transformer is reacting with the alternator of the generator and shifting the phase angle of the current with respect to the voltage, causing heating. If you have a device such as the Fluke, you can see the phase relation of current and voltage. With the oscilloscope, you are only seeing the voltage waveform. The waveform you are showing is not a problem, the THD is pretty small and the transformer will damp the higher harmonics anyway. Try adding a resistive load to the generator in parallel with the Magnum, that will help to correct the power factor. You can play with capacitance once you can measure the power factor. On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 9:01 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > Hello wrenches, > > Last December I posted about a Magnum 4448 and a Generac 22 kW generator > that aren't working well together. The symptom was that the Magnum > transformer would overheat very quickly, even at very low charge rates (<2A > DC). We have verified 120/240 VAC operation of the generator. > > We were able to get up to the site with an oscilloscope and see if we > could find anything out. I've attached some photos of the oscilloscope > output. I don't have anything to compare it to, so I'd like to see if > anyone has some insight into why this may be occurring. > The 4 photos are as follows (all photos L1-L2): > 1. Generator Waveform No Load: Unloaded Generator Voltage Waveform > 2. Charger 1st Connected: AC Input Voltage waveform immediately after > charger connects > 3. Steady State Operation Editted: AC Input Voltage waveform after about > 10 seconds, this waveform continues until transformer overheats (in about 2 > minutes) Note the disturbances. > 4. Zoomed In Ripple: Closer view of the disturbances noted in #3. > > We have tried replacing the Magnum with an identical unit, and we had the > same issue. We also tried a Honda 6500 with atrocious voltage and > frequency regulation and it worked fine with the Magnum. Since I did not > sell him the generator, the easy out is to replace the generator. However, > there is some custom exhaust duct work and it will be much more expensive > to replace the generator than to try a new inverter. > > I think that over all it is preferable for the client to replace the > inverter/charger with a different brand. I have no problem doing that > except that I'd like to be relatively sure that this is anomalous behavior > between the Magnum and the Generac and not a generator issue. What are the > chances that I'd have the same issue with a different inverter? What might > cause this? All voltage and frequency measurements have been perfect with > the Generac. > > Your comments or thoughts are appreciated. > > Thanks > > > > On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 11:15 AM, RE Ellison wrote: > >> If memory serves me correctly and this is the off grid Generac they are >> available as a 120 volt and it takes a new breaker and rewiring to get 120 >> / 240 out of them >> >> I run into this in the past they actually had it wired for 240 into a >> balancing transformer to feed 120 into the inverter >> >> We could've just left it at 120 volt >> >> Later, >> Bob ellison >> >> >> Bob Ellison >> >> On Dec 16, 2014, at 11:33 AM, "Baxter, Gary" wrote: >> >> Hi Mac, >> Jay just had the same issue and it was 120v from the gen instead of >> 120/240. The inverter was charging using half the windings causing it to >> Overtemp. >> >> Check the 60A breakers on the side of the inverter. Also make sure to >> remove the wires from the input terminal block before measuring voltage as >> the inverter will make 120v look like 120/240v at the terminals. >> >> If the generator is 3 Phase it won't work with this inverter unless you >> only use one leg. This will work but you will need to turn the charge rate >> to 50% in order to prevent Overtemp. Sometimes it works as high as 70%. >> >> Gary Baxter >> Product Manager >> Magnum/Dimensions >> >> On Dec 15, 2014, at 12:12 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: >> >> Hi jarmo, >> >> We have verified this is split phase 120/240. My multimeter gets 120 L-N >> and 240 L-L. >> >> Thanks >> On Dec 15, 2014 10:25 AM, >> wrote: >> >>> Hi: >>> >>> The Generac QT02224GNAX ships as a three-phase 120/208 VAC. I believe >>> the Magnum is a 120/240 VAC. >>> >>> JARMO >>> >>> _____________________________________________________________________________________ >>> >>> * Jarmo Venalainen* | * Schneider Electric ** | Solar Business* | >>> *CANADA* | *Training & Development Specialist - Senior* >>> * Phone:* +604-422-2528 | *Fax:* +604-420-1591 | *Mobile:* >>> +604-505-0291 >>> * Email:* *jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com* >>> | *Site:** www.SEsolar.com* >>> | *Address:* 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC >>> V5G4M1 >>> >>> >>> *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail >>> >>> >>> >>> From: Mac Lewis To: RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>, Date: 12/15/2014 05:52 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] >>> Generac QT series Sent by: "RE-wrenches" < >>> re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> >>> >>> Hello wrenches, >>> >>> We have a newly installed system that has a 22 kW Generac Quiet Source >>> QT02224GNAX with a Magnum MS4448-PAE. When we start the generator, the >>> Magnum's internal transformer temperature climbs to overtemp (240F) within >>> a 2 minutes. The batteries are being floated at the time, and haven't seen >>> more than 5A coming out of the generator. We swapped the Magnum out, and >>> we have the exact same issue. We then got a job-site gas generator 6500W >>> and ran it. No problem whatsoever. The problem appears to be with the >>> Generac, or with the interaction between the Generac & the Magnum. I >>> didn't have a scope on site but the fluke multimeter doesn't detect >>> anything wrong with the voltage or frequency coming from the Generac. >>> >>> Has anyone had issues with the Generac QT? Anyone paired one with a >>> Magnum PAE before? I want to get my scope up there and look for triplen >>> harmonics, but I'm not sure how to filter these out. Any references on how >>> to effectively do that is appreciated. >>> >>> Thanks in advance >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> Mac Lewis >>> >>> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >>> >>> >>> ______________________________________________________________________ >>> This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. >>> ______________________________________________________________________ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jul 14 10:19:17 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 07:19:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generac QT series In-Reply-To: References: <128C1A1E-6A75-470C-905E-73EFDDEA62B8@sensata.com> <9C26EC4D-DE54-4C5C-8486-7ED0896D5650@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Mac What does magnum have to say? ( we've never seen this before?) I don't understand what is going on, but I had a similar problem told to me and fixed with using a transformer. Yes just running the AC in and out but it worked. Good luck Jay > On Jul 14, 2015, at 6:01 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Hello wrenches, > > Last December I posted about a Magnum 4448 and a Generac 22 kW generator that aren't working well together. The symptom was that the Magnum transformer would overheat very quickly, even at very low charge rates (<2A DC). We have verified 120/240 VAC operation of the generator. > > We were able to get up to the site with an oscilloscope and see if we could find anything out. I've attached some photos of the oscilloscope output. I don't have anything to compare it to, so I'd like to see if anyone has some insight into why this may be occurring. > The 4 photos are as follows (all photos L1-L2): > 1. Generator Waveform No Load: Unloaded Generator Voltage Waveform > 2. Charger 1st Connected: AC Input Voltage waveform immediately after charger connects > 3. Steady State Operation Editted: AC Input Voltage waveform after about 10 seconds, this waveform continues until transformer overheats (in about 2 minutes) Note the disturbances. > 4. Zoomed In Ripple: Closer view of the disturbances noted in #3. > > We have tried replacing the Magnum with an identical unit, and we had the same issue. We also tried a Honda 6500 with atrocious voltage and frequency regulation and it worked fine with the Magnum. Since I did not sell him the generator, the easy out is to replace the generator. However, there is some custom exhaust duct work and it will be much more expensive to replace the generator than to try a new inverter. > > I think that over all it is preferable for the client to replace the inverter/charger with a different brand. I have no problem doing that except that I'd like to be relatively sure that this is anomalous behavior between the Magnum and the Generac and not a generator issue. What are the chances that I'd have the same issue with a different inverter? What might cause this? All voltage and frequency measurements have been perfect with the Generac. > > Your comments or thoughts are appreciated. > > Thanks > > > From larry at starlightsolar.com Tue Jul 14 12:28:37 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 09:28:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generac QT series In-Reply-To: References: <128C1A1E-6A75-470C-905E-73EFDDEA62B8@sensata.com> <9C26EC4D-DE54-4C5C-8486-7ED0896D5650@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hey Mac, We have installed many Magnum inverters in power systems that use home standby (like the Generac), RV style and all kinds of portable generators and have never experienced this issue. I have a Scopemeter also and have seen far worse waveform distortions than you are showing in the photos so I believe your problem is not as simple as the sine waveform. From the cost standpoint, I’de guess you have to try a different brand inverter first. However, since the problem only occurs with that particular generator, I would not trust it. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jul 14, 2015, at 6:01 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: Hello wrenches, Last December I posted about a Magnum 4448 and a Generac 22 kW generator that aren't working well together. The symptom was that the Magnum transformer would overheat very quickly, even at very low charge rates (<2A DC). We have verified 120/240 VAC operation of the generator. We were able to get up to the site with an oscilloscope and see if we could find anything out. I've attached some photos of the oscilloscope output. I don't have anything to compare it to, so I'd like to see if anyone has some insight into why this may be occurring. The 4 photos are as follows (all photos L1-L2): 1. Generator Waveform No Load: Unloaded Generator Voltage Waveform 2. Charger 1st Connected: AC Input Voltage waveform immediately after charger connects 3. Steady State Operation Editted: AC Input Voltage waveform after about 10 seconds, this waveform continues until transformer overheats (in about 2 minutes) Note the disturbances. 4. Zoomed In Ripple: Closer view of the disturbances noted in #3. We have tried replacing the Magnum with an identical unit, and we had the same issue. We also tried a Honda 6500 with atrocious voltage and frequency regulation and it worked fine with the Magnum. Since I did not sell him the generator, the easy out is to replace the generator. However, there is some custom exhaust duct work and it will be much more expensive to replace the generator than to try a new inverter. I think that over all it is preferable for the client to replace the inverter/charger with a different brand. I have no problem doing that except that I'd like to be relatively sure that this is anomalous behavior between the Magnum and the Generac and not a generator issue. What are the chances that I'd have the same issue with a different inverter? What might cause this? All voltage and frequency measurements have been perfect with the Generac. Your comments or thoughts are appreciated. Thanks -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Tue Jul 14 12:43:11 2015 From: Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com (Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 12:43:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generac QT series In-Reply-To: References: <128C1A1E-6A75-470C-905E-73EFDDEA62B8@sensata.com> <9C26EC4D-DE54-4C5C-8486-7ED0896D5650@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi: I'm assuming the oscilloscope waveforms are voltages. If so, they don't look bad. I would get a current for the oscilloscope and and measure the L1, L2 and Neutral currents. That should reveal what is going on. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Mac Lewis To: RE-wrenches , Date: 07/14/2015 06:01 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Generac QT series Sent by: "RE-wrenches" Hello wrenches, Last December I posted about a Magnum 4448 and a Generac 22 kW generator that aren't working well together. The symptom was that the Magnum transformer would overheat very quickly, even at very low charge rates (<2A DC). We have verified 120/240 VAC operation of the generator. We were able to get up to the site with an oscilloscope and see if we could find anything out. I've attached some photos of the oscilloscope output. I don't have anything to compare it to, so I'd like to see if anyone has some insight into why this may be occurring. The 4 photos are as follows (all photos L1-L2): 1. Generator Waveform No Load: Unloaded Generator Voltage Waveform 2. Charger 1st Connected: AC Input Voltage waveform immediately after charger connects 3. Steady State Operation Editted: AC Input Voltage waveform after about 10 seconds, this waveform continues until transformer overheats (in about 2 minutes) Note the disturbances. 4. Zoomed In Ripple: Closer view of the disturbances noted in #3. We have tried replacing the Magnum with an identical unit, and we had the same issue. We also tried a Honda 6500 with atrocious voltage and frequency regulation and it worked fine with the Magnum. Since I did not sell him the generator, the easy out is to replace the generator. However, there is some custom exhaust duct work and it will be much more expensive to replace the generator than to try a new inverter. I think that over all it is preferable for the client to replace the inverter/charger with a different brand. I have no problem doing that except that I'd like to be relatively sure that this is anomalous behavior between the Magnum and the Generac and not a generator issue. What are the chances that I'd have the same issue with a different inverter? What might cause this? All voltage and frequency measurements have been perfect with the Generac. Your comments or thoughts are appreciated. Thanks On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 11:15 AM, RE Ellison wrote: If memory serves me correctly and this is the off grid Generac they are available as a 120 volt and it takes a new breaker and rewiring to get 120 / 240 out of them I run into this in the past they actually had it wired for 240 into a balancing transformer to feed 120 into the inverter We could've just left it at 120 volt Later, Bob ellison Bob Ellison On Dec 16, 2014, at 11:33 AM, "Baxter, Gary" wrote: Hi Mac, Jay just had the same issue and it was 120v from the gen instead of 120/240. The inverter was charging using half the windings causing it to Overtemp. Check the 60A breakers on the side of the inverter. Also make sure to remove the wires from the input terminal block before measuring voltage as the inverter will make 120v look like 120/240v at the terminals. If the generator is 3 Phase it won't work with this inverter unless you only use one leg. This will work but you will need to turn the charge rate to 50% in order to prevent Overtemp. Sometimes it works as high as 70%. Gary Baxter Product Manager Magnum/Dimensions On Dec 15, 2014, at 12:12 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: Hi jarmo, We have verified this is split phase 120/240. My multimeter gets 120 L-N and 240 L-L. Thanks On Dec 15, 2014 10:25 AM, wrote: Hi: The Generac QT02224GNAX ships as a three-phase 120/208 VAC. I believe the Magnum is a 120/240 VAC. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | CANADA | Training & Development Specialist - Senior Phone: +604-422-2528 | Fax: +604-420-1591 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.SEsolar.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Mac Lewis To: RE-wrenches , Date: 12/15/2014 05:52 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generac QT series Sent by: "RE-wrenches" Hello wrenches, We have a newly installed system that has a 22 kW Generac Quiet Source QT02224GNAX with a Magnum MS4448-PAE. When we start the generator, the Magnum's internal transformer temperature climbs to overtemp (240F) within a 2 minutes. The batteries are being floated at the time, and haven't seen more than 5A coming out of the generator. We swapped the Magnum out, and we have the exact same issue. We then got a job-site gas generator 6500W and ran it. No problem whatsoever. The problem appears to be with the Generac, or with the interaction between the Generac & the Magnum. I didn't have a scope on site but the fluke multimeter doesn't detect anything wrong with the voltage or frequency coming from the Generac. Has anyone had issues with the Generac QT? Anyone paired one with a Magnum PAE before? I want to get my scope up there and look for triplen harmonics, but I'm not sure how to filter these out. Any references on how to effectively do that is appreciated. Thanks in advance -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________[attachment "Generator Waveform No Load.jpg" deleted by Jarmo Venalainen/Canada/Schneider] [attachment "Charger 1st Connected.jpg" deleted by Jarmo Venalainen/Canada/Schneider] [attachment "Steady State Operation Editted.jpg" deleted by Jarmo Venalainen/Canada/Schneider] [attachment "Zoomed In Ripple.jpg" deleted by Jarmo Venalainen/Canada/Schneider] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From swingjunkie at gmail.com Tue Jul 14 16:35:17 2015 From: swingjunkie at gmail.com (Carl Adams) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 16:35:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Optics RE Message-ID: Hello Wrenches I am interested to see if any of you have the Outback Optics RE up and running. I attended a seminar recently and they could not demo it. I have watched the canned demo on the website, but the engineer in me has a problem with canned demos vs. live demonstrations. Any field experience would be appreciated. Carl Adams NABBCEP Certified PV Installer SunRock Solar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Tue Jul 14 17:59:37 2015 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 17:59:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Optics RE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have. I can add you as a user if you want. I have suggested to outback that they should not password protect the read only site, currently you cannot view without a password. Chris Mason Comet Systems Anguilla (264) 235-5670 St. Kitts (869) 662-5670 skype netconcepts NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Renewable Energy Systems professional Generac Generators Factory technician On Jul 14, 2015 5:37 PM, "Carl Adams" wrote: > Hello Wrenches > > I am interested to see if any of you have the Outback Optics RE up and > running. I attended a seminar recently and they could not demo it. I have > watched the canned demo on the website, but the engineer in me has a > problem with canned demos vs. live demonstrations. > > Any field experience would be appreciated. > > Carl Adams > NABBCEP Certified PV Installer > SunRock Solar > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue Jul 14 21:45:02 2015 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 19:45:02 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generac QT series In-Reply-To: References: <128C1A1E-6A75-470C-905E-73EFDDEA62B8@sensata.com> <9C26EC4D-DE54-4C5C-8486-7ED0896D5650@gmail.com> Message-ID: Wrenches, Thanks for these productive responses. I will attempt to get an instrument that can examine the current waveform. I want to understand power factor possibility a bit more. I neglected to mention that during the oscilloscope tests, we turned off the AC output of the inverter so the only loading of the generator would have been the charger on the Magnum. The Magnum has power factor corrected charger, so I am assuming that when I measure the power factor, it should be near unity. I was talking to an electrical engineering friend about it and he said that most generators have a pf of about 0.8. This confuses me because I thought current (and hence power factor) is determined by the load. How does the power source influence power factor (assuming we aren't near its current production limit)? Thanks in advance On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 10:43 AM, wrote: > Hi: > > I'm assuming the oscilloscope waveforms are voltages. If so, they don't > look bad. > > I would get a current for the oscilloscope and and measure the L1, L2 and > Neutral currents. That should reveal what is going on. > > JARMO > > _____________________________________________________________________________________ > > * Jarmo Venalainen* | * Schneider Electric ** | Xantrex Brand* | > *CANADA* | *Sales Application Engineer* > * Phone:* +604-422-2528 | *Tech Support:* 800-670-0707 | *Mobile:* > +604-505-0291 > * Email:* *jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com* > | *Site:** www.Xantrex.com* > | *Address:* 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC > V5G4M1 > > > > > > *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail > > > > From: Mac Lewis To: RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>, Date: 07/14/2015 06:01 AM Subject: Re: > [RE-wrenches] Generac QT series Sent by: "RE-wrenches" < > re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org> > > ------------------------------ > > > > Hello wrenches, > > Last December I posted about a Magnum 4448 and a Generac 22 kW generator > that aren't working well together. The symptom was that the Magnum > transformer would overheat very quickly, even at very low charge rates (<2A > DC). We have verified 120/240 VAC operation of the generator. > > We were able to get up to the site with an oscilloscope and see if we > could find anything out. I've attached some photos of the oscilloscope > output. I don't have anything to compare it to, so I'd like to see if > anyone has some insight into why this may be occurring. > The 4 photos are as follows (all photos L1-L2): > 1. Generator Waveform No Load: Unloaded Generator Voltage Waveform > 2. Charger 1st Connected: AC Input Voltage waveform immediately after > charger connects > 3. Steady State Operation Editted: AC Input Voltage waveform after about > 10 seconds, this waveform continues until transformer overheats (in about 2 > minutes) Note the disturbances. > 4. Zoomed In Ripple: Closer view of the disturbances noted in #3. > > We have tried replacing the Magnum with an identical unit, and we had the > same issue. We also tried a Honda 6500 with atrocious voltage and > frequency regulation and it worked fine with the Magnum. Since I did not > sell him the generator, the easy out is to replace the generator. However, > there is some custom exhaust duct work and it will be much more expensive > to replace the generator than to try a new inverter. > > I think that over all it is preferable for the client to replace the > inverter/charger with a different brand. I have no problem doing that > except that I'd like to be relatively sure that this is anomalous behavior > between the Magnum and the Generac and not a generator issue. What are the > chances that I'd have the same issue with a different inverter? What might > cause this? All voltage and frequency measurements have been perfect with > the Generac. > > Your comments or thoughts are appreciated. > > Thanks > > > > On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 11:15 AM, RE Ellison <*reellison at gmail.com* > > wrote: > If memory serves me correctly and this is the off grid Generac they are > available as a 120 volt and it takes a new breaker and rewiring to get 120 > / 240 out of them > > I run into this in the past they actually had it wired for 240 into a > balancing transformer to feed 120 into the inverter > > We could've just left it at 120 volt > > Later, > Bob ellison > > > Bob Ellison > > On Dec 16, 2014, at 11:33 AM, "Baxter, Gary" <*gbaxter at sensata.com* > > wrote: > > Hi Mac, > Jay just had the same issue and it was 120v from the gen instead of > 120/240. The inverter was charging using half the windings causing it to > Overtemp. > > Check the 60A breakers on the side of the inverter. Also make sure to > remove the wires from the input terminal block before measuring voltage as > the inverter will make 120v look like 120/240v at the terminals. > > If the generator is 3 Phase it won't work with this inverter unless you > only use one leg. This will work but you will need to turn the charge rate > to 50% in order to prevent Overtemp. Sometimes it works as high as 70%. > > Gary Baxter > Product Manager > Magnum/Dimensions > > On Dec 15, 2014, at 12:12 PM, Mac Lewis <*maclewis1 at gmail.com* > > wrote: > > Hi jarmo, > > We have verified this is split phase 120/240. My multimeter gets 120 L-N > and 240 L-L. > > Thanks > > On Dec 15, 2014 10:25 AM, <*Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com* > > wrote: > Hi: > > The Generac QT02224GNAX ships as a three-phase 120/208 VAC. I believe the > Magnum is a 120/240 VAC. > > JARMO > > _____________________________________________________________________________________ > > * Jarmo Venalainen* | * Schneider Electric ** | Solar Business* | > *CANADA* | *Training & Development Specialist - Senior* > * Phone:* *+604-422-2528* <%2B604-422-2528> | *Fax:* *+604-420-1591* > <%2B604-420-1591> | *Mobile:* *+604-505-0291* <%2B604-505-0291> > * Email:* *jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com* > | *Site:** www.SEsolar.com* > | *Address:* 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC > V5G4M1 > > ** > *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail > > > From: Mac Lewis <*maclewis1 at gmail.com* > To: RE-wrenches > <*re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org* >, > Date: 12/15/2014 05:52 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generac QT series Sent > by: "RE-wrenches" <*re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org* > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Hello wrenches, > > We have a newly installed system that has a 22 kW Generac Quiet Source > QT02224GNAX with a Magnum MS4448-PAE. When we start the generator, the > Magnum's internal transformer temperature climbs to overtemp (240F) within > a 2 minutes. The batteries are being floated at the time, and haven't seen > more than 5A coming out of the generator. We swapped the Magnum out, and > we have the exact same issue. We then got a job-site gas generator 6500W > and ran it. No problem whatsoever. The problem appears to be with the > Generac, or with the interaction between the Generac & the Magnum. I > didn't have a scope on site but the fluke multimeter doesn't detect > anything wrong with the voltage or frequency coming from the Generac. > > Has anyone had issues with the Generac QT? Anyone paired one with a > Magnum PAE before? I want to get my scope up there and look for triplen > harmonics, but I'm not sure how to filter these out. Any references on how > to effectively do that is appreciated. > > Thanks in advance > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. > ______________________________________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: *RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org* > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > *http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org* > > > List-Archive: > *http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html* > > > List rules & etiquette: > *www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm* > > > Check out or update participant bios: > *www.members.re-wrenches.org* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: *RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org* > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > *http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org* > > > List-Archive: > *http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html* > > > List rules & etiquette: > *www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm* > > > Check out or update participant bios: > *www.members.re-wrenches.org* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: *RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org* > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > *http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org* > > > List-Archive: > *http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html* > > > List rules & etiquette: > *www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm* > > > Check out or update participant bios: > *www.members.re-wrenches.org* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: *RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org* > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > *http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org* > > > List-Archive: > *http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html* > > > List rules & etiquette: > *www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm* > > > Check out or update participant bios: > *www.members.re-wrenches.org* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: *RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org* > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > *http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org* > > > List-Archive: > *http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html* > > > List rules & etiquette: > *www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm* > > > Check out or update participant bios: > *www.members.re-wrenches.org* > > > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. > ______________________________________________________________________[attachment > "Generator Waveform No Load.jpg" deleted by Jarmo > Venalainen/Canada/Schneider] [attachment "Charger 1st Connected.jpg" > deleted by Jarmo Venalainen/Canada/Schneider] [attachment "Steady State > Operation Editted.jpg" deleted by Jarmo Venalainen/Canada/Schneider] > [attachment "Zoomed In Ripple.jpg" deleted by Jarmo > Venalainen/Canada/Schneider] > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 1897 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dave at independentpowerllc.com Tue Jul 14 22:12:38 2015 From: dave at independentpowerllc.com (Dave) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 22:12:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OutBack 2024 troubleshooting question Message-ID: <01a301d0bea3$b9915300$2cb3f900$@com> Wrenches, Responding to a neighbors call for help troubleshooting their off grid PV system with a ten year old OutBack 2024T inverter I came upon a problem that I don't recall seeing before. I may have seen it but my semi-retired brain cannot remember this particular problem. Issue is that the inverter will not synchronize and charge with a seemingly good Honda 7000i generator. . Generator output as measured with Fluke 126Vac 59.99Hz 165Vac Peak runs loads fine on its own . Connected through to OB2024 the typical 30 second delay before transferring and charging happens per usual (Red LED blinks a couple of times then stays off and Amber charging light blinks for the delay period). . Upon transfer 300 Watts of AC loads on inverter seem to run OK on generator BUT generator output falls to 95Vac and no charging is initiated. Hz stays good and there is no audible change in the generator performance that I can tell. . No Red LED error light on OutBack. Just Amber charging light is on, but no charging happens (no rise in voltage and no positive amps showing on a fully functional TirMetric meter). . No Mate on this system and I did not have one in my truck. Signed, Easily stumped in Vermont David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-371-8678 cell 802-888-4917 home -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Jul 14 23:24:17 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 21:24:17 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OutBack 2024 troubleshooting question In-Reply-To: <01a301d0bea3$b9915300$2cb3f900$@com> References: <01a301d0bea3$b9915300$2cb3f900$@com> Message-ID: <55A5D261.3010600@solarray.com> Seems like something wrong with the generator, if the Vac is going that low, or there's a loose connection eating voltage somewhere. The Outback might still try to charge, but not be able to actually produce any amps with that low an input voltage. Check the Vac at the genny when this is happening, and if its still good there, work towards the inverter looking for where those pesky missing volts are going. Might be the input plug right at the genny, those take a beating and quit making good contact. After a while they'll get so hot they melt. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 7/14/2015 8:12 PM, Dave wrote: > > Wrenches, > > Responding to a neighbors call for help troubleshooting their off grid > PV system with a ten year old OutBack 2024T inverter I came upon a > problem that I don't recall seeing before. I may have seen it but my > semi-retired brain cannot remember this particular problem. Issue is > that the inverter will not synchronize and charge with a seemingly > good Honda 7000i generator. > > ·Generator output as measured with Fluke 126Vac 59.99Hz 165Vac Peak > runs loads fine on its own > > ·Connected through to OB2024 the typical 30 second delay before > transferring and charging happens per usual (Red LED blinks a couple > of times then stays off and Amber charging light blinks for the delay > period). > > ·Upon transfer 300 Watts of AC loads on inverter seem to run OK on > generator BUT generator output falls to 95Vac and no charging is > initiated. Hz stays good and there is no audible change in the > generator performance that I can tell. > > ·_No_ Red LED error light on OutBack. Just Amber charging light is > on, but no charging happens (no rise in voltage and no positive amps > showing on a fully functional TirMetric meter). > > ·No Mate on this system and I did not have one in my truck. > > Signed, > > Easily stumped in Vermont > > David Palumbo > > Independent Power LLC > > 462 Solar Way Drive > > Hyde Park, VT 05655 > > 802-371-8678 cell > > 802-888-4917 home > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Gary at IcarusSolarServices.com Wed Jul 15 01:55:17 2015 From: Gary at IcarusSolarServices.com (Gary Willett) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2015 00:55:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generac QT series In-Reply-To: References: <128C1A1E-6A75-470C-905E-73EFDDEA62B8@sensata.com> <9C26EC4D-DE54-4C5C-8486-7ED0896D5650@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55A5F5C5.90004@IcarusSolarServices.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 40194 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 4274 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 1869 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 1897 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tump at swnl.net Wed Jul 15 12:12:22 2015 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2015 12:12:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island Sizing In-Reply-To: <55A46B2B.6000808@charter.net> References: <3D0B04D8-11AE-4E39-9806-7575FF4C03B4@swnl.net> <5888CD3F-5350-46AB-B3C1-94AD6867718F@gmail.com> <41FE255D65D554478C3B17F3EB5410EF913A377E@SVR-US-EXMBX-01.sma.de> <50235.66.117.140.17.1436814567.squirrel@webmail.lmi.net> <41FE255D65D554478C3B17F3EB5410EF913A4354@SVR-US-EXMBX-01.sma.de> <55A46B2B.6000808@charter.net> Message-ID: <275A1416-BD7A-478F-BD5E-2F4957D96BD2@swnl.net> I must concur w/ Bill, this is somewhat troubling to me as well. THE ONE thing that has kept me using the SMA product line WAS the access to quality products and personnel that has always been supportive with not only design questions but trouble shooting and prompt compensaited component swap out in a warrantee situation. This industry has ALWAYS been plagued w/ vapor ware, products looming on the horizon and over stated product performance that we as installers and the folks who are contributing to the bottom line of the manus have to rectify and explain to our clients that we were sold a bill of goods that the manus are not able to deliver. This is just the products.... not to mention the musical chair scenario for personnel that also seems to plague this industry...... most reciently & NOT only, Greg Smith & quite a few other valuable & enthusiastic former SMA persons recently let go! oh and lets not forget Sandra Herrera formerly of Xantrex. Were these folks let go or leave due to their frustration caused by lack of corporate responses to the problems with their products in industry? Can you say; SI inverters that have yet to see the light of day or the battery over charging firmware of the Connex series, in the AC coupled mode!..... that has yet to be discussed on this list. NO it is quite easy for persons "not to be dramatic", who get a pay check despite vapor ware or the inability of quality design and service persons to help those of us paying their salary. Tump On Jul 13, 2015, at 9:51 PM, Bill Loesch wrote: > > Steve, > > "Let's not be dramatic."(?) Three messages on the same subject in three minutes? Please, please, "Let's not be dramatic." I'm glad your multiple posts slipped by the Moderator, it shows your foresight, planning and motivation. > If this newsgroup is going to assist fellow wrenches, then I must ask, "Why, out of all the products that SMA manufactures/supports has the Sunny Boy design assistance fell out of disfavor? That info might be more relevant than your other responses and why the RE-wrenches is open to manufacturers. > > Respectfully, > Bill Loesch > Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar > 314 631 1094 > On 13-Jul-15 2:17 PM, Steve Jefferson wrote: >> Let's not be dramatic. >> >> Of course our marketing and sales team will feature new products when they are coming to market. >> >> Thanks >> >> SMA America, LLC >> Steve Jefferson >> Contact Center Supervisor >> 3925 Atherton Ave >> Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714 >> U.S.A. >> Tel: +1 916 625 3185 (direct) >> Fax: +1 916 625 0871 >> Mobile: +1 916 622 4253 >> Email: Steve.jefferson at SMA-America.com >> www.SMA-America.com >> >> >> >> This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of markf at berkeleysolar.com >> Sent: Monday, July 13, 2015 12:09 PM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island Sizing >> >> So when these great changes come out, we have to call a distributor to learn about them? >> >>> The Sunny Island is not going anywhere, in fact there are some great >>> changes coming soon. >>> >>> SMA America, LLC >>> Steve Jefferson >>> Service Line Supervisor >>> 3925 Atherton Ave >>> Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714 >>> U.S.A. >>> Tel: +1 916 625 3185 (direct) >>> Fax: +1 916 625 0871 >>> Mobile: +1 916 622 4253 >>> Email: >>> Steve.jefferson at SMA-America.com>>> www.SMA-America.com >>> [cid:image001.png at 01CF1CFA.FE18BEB0]>> WzPuyqhzo&feature=youtu.be> >>> >>> This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC >>> confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the >>> intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email >>> (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you >>> are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately >>> and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and >>> any attachments thereto. Thank you. >>> >>> >>> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] >>> On Behalf Of Jay >>> Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2015 5:14 PM >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island Sizing >>> >>> Out of curiosity what is the design question? >>> >>> And I'd heard rumors that SMA was dropping the SI in the USA. >>> >>> Know anyone going to intersolar? I bet there are Sma folks there >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Jul 8, 2015, at 4:32 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez >>> > wrote: >>> Still no luck with SMA. >>> I did have one call back and waited for an email, with no avail. I >>> have since sent numerous emails to people mentioned on this list. >>> I hope the support after the sale is better! Not sure if I should even >>> be putting this on the wrenches list or not. I know it doesn't apply >>> to working in the field, but..... >>> >>> Jeremy Rodriguez >>> All Solar, Inc. >>> 1463 M >>> Penrose Colorado 81240 >>> >>> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! >>> >>> On Jun 25, 2015, at 4:07 PM, Tump >>> > >>> wrote: >>> While they recently have down sized their staff I find this >>> surprising. I have CCed an engineer and someone you can Btch slap...... enjoy Greg! >>> TUMP >>> Contact me off list if you still have a problem I do SI/SB installs On >>> Jun 25, 2015, at 9:00 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hello >>> So far I've been unsuccessful in getting SMA to return a call Does >>> anyone have a direct line to one of their design engineers? >>> •Off grid SI/SB 3Phase >>> Help..... >>> >>> Jeremy Rodriguez >>> Solar Installation And Design Expert >>> All Solar, Inc. >>> 1463 M >>> Penrose Colorado 81240 >>> >>> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: >>> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>> .org> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist >>> .html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm>> .htm> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Tump at swnl.net>> ilto:Tump at swnl.net> >>> >>> www.SWNL.net >>> Solarwinds Northernlights >>> Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California >>> 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 >>> Blair "TUMP" May >>> >>> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>> NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" >>> >>> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>> Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: >>> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>> .org> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist >>> .html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm>> .htm> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: >>> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>> .org> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist >>> .html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm>> .htm> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist >>> .html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2015.0.6081 / Virus Database: 4392/10224 - Release Date: 07/13/15 > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2015.0.6081 / Virus Database: 4392/10224 - Release Date: 07/13/15 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Jul 15 19:20:20 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2015 17:20:20 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Clamp on Meter Message-ID: <55A6EAB4.2070403@solarray.com> Hi All; My Fluke 36 clamp on DC meter just died again. It will not zero. This happened before, and I had it repaired, but I think its time for a new one, as its 15 years old. What are folks using these days? I'm looking at the Fluke 376; it does AC/DC current, but also is rated to 1000 v, which makes it useful for the new higher voltage arrays. I was also looking at some of the clamp on Power Quality meters, like the Amprobe ACD-41PQ, or the Extech 382075 Power quality meter. The Fluke 345 is beyond my budget right now, and doesn't go to 1000 v. I need the DC current ability now, but adding power factor, and THD readings would be a serious bonus. I may just get the Fluke 376, and save my pennies up for the power quality meter for Christmas.... As always your invaluable input and experiences are greatly appreciated. -- R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 From dana at solarwork.com Wed Jul 15 19:23:47 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2015 17:23:47 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Clamp on Meter In-Reply-To: <55A6EAB4.2070403@solarray.com> References: <55A6EAB4.2070403@solarray.com> Message-ID: <01bf01d0bf55$4d803e80$e880bb80$@com> Fluke is making GREENLEES meters I have a couple and they are as accurate as the FLUKES. I cannot quote model #'s but good buy for less $ & same bomber rubber exterior as FLUKE. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2015 5:20 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Clamp on Meter Hi All; My Fluke 36 clamp on DC meter just died again. It will not zero. This happened before, and I had it repaired, but I think its time for a new one, as its 15 years old. What are folks using these days? I'm looking at the Fluke 376; it does AC/DC current, but also is rated to 1000 v, which makes it useful for the new higher voltage arrays. I was also looking at some of the clamp on Power Quality meters, like the Amprobe ACD-41PQ, or the Extech 382075 Power quality meter. The Fluke 345 is beyond my budget right now, and doesn't go to 1000 v. I need the DC current ability now, but adding power factor, and THD readings would be a serious bonus. I may just get the Fluke 376, and save my pennies up for the power quality meter for Christmas.... As always your invaluable input and experiences are greatly appreciated. -- R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From august at luminalt.com Wed Jul 15 19:44:49 2015 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2015 16:44:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Clamp on Meter In-Reply-To: <55A6EAB4.2070403@solarray.com> References: <55A6EAB4.2070403@solarray.com> Message-ID: I have a couple Fluke 381 meters which I love. The iflex current probe is great for checking individual branch circuit loads if you ever need to do that kind of work. The detachable display is handy but not completely necessary. Very good quality build. However, I would probably just buy the 376 if I had to do it again (the extra cost for the removable display isn't justified for my work) - I believe Amazon was only selling 381s at the time when I made the purchases. Best, August Luminalt -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2015 4:20 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Clamp on Meter Hi All; My Fluke 36 clamp on DC meter just died again. It will not zero. This happened before, and I had it repaired, but I think its time for a new one, as its 15 years old. What are folks using these days? I'm looking at the Fluke 376; it does AC/DC current, but also is rated to 1000 v, which makes it useful for the new higher voltage arrays. I was also looking at some of the clamp on Power Quality meters, like the Amprobe ACD-41PQ, or the Extech 382075 Power quality meter. The Fluke 345 is beyond my budget right now, and doesn't go to 1000 v. I need the DC current ability now, but adding power factor, and THD readings would be a serious bonus. I may just get the Fluke 376, and save my pennies up for the power quality meter for Christmas.... As always your invaluable input and experiences are greatly appreciated. -- R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htm l List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From sunengser at gmail.com Wed Jul 15 19:45:07 2015 From: sunengser at gmail.com (Bill Hoffer) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2015 16:45:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Clamp on Meter In-Reply-To: <01bf01d0bf55$4d803e80$e880bb80$@com> References: <55A6EAB4.2070403@solarray.com> <01bf01d0bf55$4d803e80$e880bb80$@com> Message-ID: Dana I highly recommend the Power Quality Clamp meter. My most useful meter, I will never buy just a plain old clamp meter again, for a few dollars more having the ability to measure ac/dc power directly is huge! I have had the Seaward Power Clamp for several years now, when it was the only single phase power meter available. Nice to see others coming out now from Exceltech and Amprobe , should get the price down some with competition. Fluke needs to get a model in that function and price range too! With their new Fluke Connect Blue tooth that would make performance validation a breeze! Bill On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 4:23 PM, Dana wrote: > Fluke is making GREENLEES meters I have a couple and they are as accurate > as the FLUKES. I cannot quote model #'s but good buy for less $ & same > bomber rubber exterior as FLUKE. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dana Orzel > Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 > E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com > O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >  Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Ray Walters > Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2015 5:20 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Clamp on Meter > > Hi All; > > My Fluke 36 clamp on DC meter just died again. It will not zero. This > happened before, and I had it repaired, but I think its time for a new one, > as its 15 years old. > What are folks using these days? I'm looking at the Fluke 376; it does > AC/DC current, but also is rated to 1000 v, which makes it useful for the > new higher voltage arrays. > I was also looking at some of the clamp on Power Quality meters, like the > Amprobe ACD-41PQ, or the Extech 382075 Power quality meter. The Fluke 345 > is beyond my budget right now, and doesn't go to 1000 v. > I need the DC current ability now, but adding power factor, and THD > readings would be a serious bonus. > I may just get the Fluke 376, and save my pennies up for the power quality > meter for Christmas.... > As always your invaluable input and experiences are greatly appreciated. > > -- > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- William Hoffer 161 SE Fourth Ave P.O. Box 1823 White Salmon, WA 98672-1823 sunengser at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Jul 15 20:36:15 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2015 18:36:15 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Clamp on Meter In-Reply-To: References: <55A6EAB4.2070403@solarray.com> <01bf01d0bf55$4d803e80$e880bb80$@com> Message-ID: <55A6FC7F.6030206@solarray.com> Thanks Bill for pointing me to Seaward's power clamp. That was exactly what I was looking for; it does both AC power quality, PF, THD, and it does DC power as well. None of the other meters I looked at did it all. Also I found it for about the same cost as the Fluke 376. Score another point for the RE List. Now you folks will have to groan through my inane posts about PF and THD, and other things not fully understood. Thanks again, R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 7/15/2015 5:45 PM, Bill Hoffer wrote: > Dana > > I highly recommend the Power Quality Clamp meter. My most useful > meter, I will never buy just a plain old clamp meter again, for a few > dollars more having the ability to measure ac/dc power directly is > huge! I have had the Seaward Power Clamp for several years now, when > it was the only single phase power meter available. Nice to see > others coming out now from Exceltech and Amprobe , should get the > price down some with competition. Fluke needs to get a model in that > function and price range too! With their new Fluke Connect Blue tooth > that would make performance validation a breeze! > > Bill > > On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 4:23 PM, Dana > wrote: > > Fluke is making GREENLEES meters I have a couple and they are as > accurate as the FLUKES. I cannot quote model #'s but good buy for > less $ & same bomber rubber exterior as FLUKE. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dana Orzel > Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 > E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - > solarwork.com > O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 > > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >  Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] On Behalf Of > Ray Walters > Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2015 5:20 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Clamp on Meter > > Hi All; > > My Fluke 36 clamp on DC meter just died again. It will not zero. > This happened before, and I had it repaired, but I think its time > for a new one, as its 15 years old. > What are folks using these days? I'm looking at the Fluke 376; it > does AC/DC current, but also is rated to 1000 v, which makes it > useful for the new higher voltage arrays. > I was also looking at some of the clamp on Power Quality meters, > like the Amprobe ACD-41PQ, or the Extech 382075 Power quality > meter. The Fluke 345 is beyond my budget right now, and doesn't > go to 1000 v. > I need the DC current ability now, but adding power factor, and > THD readings would be a serious bonus. > I may just get the Fluke 376, and save my pennies up for the power > quality meter for Christmas.... > As always your invaluable input and experiences are greatly > appreciated. > > -- > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > -- > William Hoffer > 161 SE Fourth Ave > P.O. Box 1823 > White Salmon, WA 98672-1823 > sunengser at gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Wed Jul 15 20:23:13 2015 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2015 20:23:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generac QT series In-Reply-To: References: <128C1A1E-6A75-470C-905E-73EFDDEA62B8@sensata.com> <9C26EC4D-DE54-4C5C-8486-7ED0896D5650@gmail.com> Message-ID: Generally speaking, three phase generators are rated at 0.8pf, and single phase are rated at 1pf. Power factor is rarely an issue in residential work. The power factor of a generator, or more correctly an alternator, is not the power factor of the generator, it is the power factor of the load that the generator is rated to deliver its rated power. The power factor of a load can be anything, and the generator will produce power at that power factor. So to refer to the generator's power factor is not correct. The Generac Quiet Source QT02224GNAX is a commercial generator, it can be 120/240 or three phase, so this unit is 120/240 and correct. The generac is a 22kW unit, so it has tons of capacity for the Magnum, which is only 4kW. However, I notice in the specs that the Magnum has a Power Factor Corrected Charger, and that might be an indication of the problem. When you combine electronically controlled equipment loads with generators, there can be interactions of the switching transistors and the alternator's excitation driver. The switching transistors in the power supply can cause weird problems with the alternator's voltage sensing circuits. Heavy correction capacitors on the output of the Magnum could be drawing a lot of amperage without any power output, causing heating. My recommendation is to load down the generator with a heavy resistive load like a big convection oven and try again. In the long run, the two may not be compatible, and my guess is that this will be a common problem with commercial generators and this Magnum. The "job-site" generator alternators are pretty dumb, they do very little voltage regulation and so they don't react to the Magnum's power factor issues. Chris On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 9:45 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > Wrenches, > > Thanks for these productive responses. I will attempt to get an > instrument that can examine the current waveform. I want to understand > power factor possibility a bit more. I neglected to mention that during > the oscilloscope tests, we turned off the AC output of the inverter so the > only loading of the generator would have been the charger on the Magnum. > The Magnum has power factor corrected charger, so I am assuming that when I > measure the power factor, it should be near unity. > > > I was talking to an electrical engineering friend about it and he said > that most generators have a pf of about 0.8. This confuses me because I > thought current (and hence power factor) is determined by the load. How > does the power source influence power factor (assuming we aren't near its > current production limit)? > > Thanks in advance > > On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 10:43 AM, > wrote: > >> Hi: >> >> I'm assuming the oscilloscope waveforms are voltages. If so, they don't >> look bad. >> >> I would get a current for the oscilloscope and and measure the L1, L2 and >> Neutral currents. That should reveal what is going on. >> >> JARMO >> >> _____________________________________________________________________________________ >> >> * Jarmo Venalainen* | * Schneider Electric ** | Xantrex Brand* | >> *CANADA* | *Sales Application Engineer* >> * Phone:* +604-422-2528 | *Tech Support:* 800-670-0707 | *Mobile:* >> +604-505-0291 >> * Email:* *jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com* >> | *Site:** www.Xantrex.com* >> | *Address:* 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC >> V5G4M1 >> >> >> >> >> >> *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail >> >> >> >> From: Mac Lewis To: RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>, Date: 07/14/2015 06:01 AM Subject: Re: >> [RE-wrenches] Generac QT series Sent by: "RE-wrenches" < >> re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> >> Hello wrenches, >> >> Last December I posted about a Magnum 4448 and a Generac 22 kW generator >> that aren't working well together. The symptom was that the Magnum >> transformer would overheat very quickly, even at very low charge rates (<2A >> DC). We have verified 120/240 VAC operation of the generator. >> >> We were able to get up to the site with an oscilloscope and see if we >> could find anything out. I've attached some photos of the oscilloscope >> output. I don't have anything to compare it to, so I'd like to see if >> anyone has some insight into why this may be occurring. >> The 4 photos are as follows (all photos L1-L2): >> 1. Generator Waveform No Load: Unloaded Generator Voltage Waveform >> 2. Charger 1st Connected: AC Input Voltage waveform immediately after >> charger connects >> 3. Steady State Operation Editted: AC Input Voltage waveform after about >> 10 seconds, this waveform continues until transformer overheats (in about 2 >> minutes) Note the disturbances. >> 4. Zoomed In Ripple: Closer view of the disturbances noted in #3. >> >> We have tried replacing the Magnum with an identical unit, and we had the >> same issue. We also tried a Honda 6500 with atrocious voltage and >> frequency regulation and it worked fine with the Magnum. Since I did not >> sell him the generator, the easy out is to replace the generator. However, >> there is some custom exhaust duct work and it will be much more expensive >> to replace the generator than to try a new inverter. >> >> I think that over all it is preferable for the client to replace the >> inverter/charger with a different brand. I have no problem doing that >> except that I'd like to be relatively sure that this is anomalous behavior >> between the Magnum and the Generac and not a generator issue. What are the >> chances that I'd have the same issue with a different inverter? What might >> cause this? All voltage and frequency measurements have been perfect with >> the Generac. >> >> Your comments or thoughts are appreciated. >> >> Thanks >> >> >> >> On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 11:15 AM, RE Ellison <*reellison at gmail.com* >> > wrote: >> If memory serves me correctly and this is the off grid Generac they are >> available as a 120 volt and it takes a new breaker and rewiring to get 120 >> / 240 out of them >> >> I run into this in the past they actually had it wired for 240 into a >> balancing transformer to feed 120 into the inverter >> >> We could've just left it at 120 volt >> >> Later, >> Bob ellison >> >> >> Bob Ellison >> >> On Dec 16, 2014, at 11:33 AM, "Baxter, Gary" <*gbaxter at sensata.com* >> > wrote: >> >> Hi Mac, >> Jay just had the same issue and it was 120v from the gen instead of >> 120/240. The inverter was charging using half the windings causing it to >> Overtemp. >> >> Check the 60A breakers on the side of the inverter. Also make sure to >> remove the wires from the input terminal block before measuring voltage as >> the inverter will make 120v look like 120/240v at the terminals. >> >> If the generator is 3 Phase it won't work with this inverter unless you >> only use one leg. This will work but you will need to turn the charge rate >> to 50% in order to prevent Overtemp. Sometimes it works as high as 70%. >> >> Gary Baxter >> Product Manager >> Magnum/Dimensions >> >> On Dec 15, 2014, at 12:12 PM, Mac Lewis <*maclewis1 at gmail.com* >> > wrote: >> >> Hi jarmo, >> >> We have verified this is split phase 120/240. My multimeter gets 120 L-N >> and 240 L-L. >> >> Thanks >> >> On Dec 15, 2014 10:25 AM, <*Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com* >> > wrote: >> Hi: >> >> The Generac QT02224GNAX ships as a three-phase 120/208 VAC. I believe >> the Magnum is a 120/240 VAC. >> >> JARMO >> >> _____________________________________________________________________________________ >> >> * Jarmo Venalainen* | * Schneider Electric ** | Solar Business* | >> *CANADA* | *Training & Development Specialist - Senior* >> * Phone:* *+604-422-2528* <%2B604-422-2528> | *Fax:* *+604-420-1591* >> <%2B604-420-1591> | *Mobile:* *+604-505-0291* <%2B604-505-0291> >> * Email:* *jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com* >> | *Site:** www.SEsolar.com* >> | *Address:* 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC >> V5G4M1 >> >> ** >> *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail >> >> >> From: Mac Lewis <*maclewis1 at gmail.com* > To: RE-wrenches >> <*re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org* >, >> Date: 12/15/2014 05:52 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generac QT series Sent >> by: "RE-wrenches" <*re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org* >> > >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> >> Hello wrenches, >> >> We have a newly installed system that has a 22 kW Generac Quiet Source >> QT02224GNAX with a Magnum MS4448-PAE. When we start the generator, the >> Magnum's internal transformer temperature climbs to overtemp (240F) within >> a 2 minutes. The batteries are being floated at the time, and haven't seen >> more than 5A coming out of the generator. We swapped the Magnum out, and >> we have the exact same issue. We then got a job-site gas generator 6500W >> and ran it. No problem whatsoever. The problem appears to be with the >> Generac, or with the interaction between the Generac & the Magnum. I >> didn't have a scope on site but the fluke multimeter doesn't detect >> anything wrong with the voltage or frequency coming from the Generac. >> >> Has anyone had issues with the Generac QT? Anyone paired one with a >> Magnum PAE before? I want to get my scope up there and look for triplen >> harmonics, but I'm not sure how to filter these out. Any references on how >> to effectively do that is appreciated. >> >> Thanks in advance >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >> >> >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: *RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org* >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> *http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org* >> >> >> List-Archive: >> *http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html* >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> *www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm* >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> *www.members.re-wrenches.org* >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: *RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org* >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> *http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org* >> >> >> List-Archive: >> *http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html* >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> *www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm* >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> *www.members.re-wrenches.org* >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: *RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org* >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> *http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org* >> >> >> List-Archive: >> *http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html* >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> *www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm* >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> *www.members.re-wrenches.org* >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: *RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org* >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> *http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org* >> >> >> List-Archive: >> *http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html* >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> *www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm* >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> *www.members.re-wrenches.org* >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: *RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org* >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> *http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org* >> >> >> List-Archive: >> *http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html* >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> *www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm* >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> *www.members.re-wrenches.org* >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >> >> >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. >> ______________________________________________________________________[attachment >> "Generator Waveform No Load.jpg" deleted by Jarmo >> Venalainen/Canada/Schneider] [attachment "Charger 1st Connected.jpg" >> deleted by Jarmo Venalainen/Canada/Schneider] [attachment "Steady State >> Operation Editted.jpg" deleted by Jarmo Venalainen/Canada/Schneider] >> [attachment "Zoomed In Ripple.jpg" deleted by Jarmo >> Venalainen/Canada/Schneider] >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 1869 bytes Desc: not available URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Thu Jul 16 08:20:16 2015 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2015 05:20:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Energy Message-ID: <55A7A180.70408@berkeleysolar.com> Does anyone have any thoughts/experience with the Aquion Energy battery? Mark Frye Berkeley Solar Electric Systems From larry at starlightsolar.com Thu Jul 16 10:27:47 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2015 07:27:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Energy In-Reply-To: <55A7A180.70408@berkeleysolar.com> References: <55A7A180.70408@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: <631606B8-AAE8-4D2A-9B58-E13FA696D8B0@starlightsolar.com> Hi Mark, There was some discussion back in November 2014 on this list. They claim 100% DoD but I can’t see how you can use the full capacity of the battery due to the broad operating voltage. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jul 16, 2015, at 5:20 AM, Mark Frye wrote: Does anyone have any thoughts/experience with the Aquion Energy battery? Mark Frye Berkeley Solar Electric Systems _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From frenergy at psln.com Thu Jul 16 11:03:25 2015 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2015 08:03:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator brains References: <55A7A180.70408@berkeleysolar.com> <631606B8-AAE8-4D2A-9B58-E13FA696D8B0@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <09A7F65DDBE447458C90DDF70284EA4B@D8XG8YH1> Wrenches, We recently discussed the significant load the brains of many gensets requires, especially in off-grid. I have been trying to keep the start battery and brains of a Kohler 14KW gen charged with a ~40 PV. This works fine until the winter. Any issues with keeping that PV connected (with its charge controller) and re-connecting the supplied-by-Kohler power source connection to keep the battery and brains happy? I would like to think the PV would take some of the load off the AC connection to the main off-grid system, with no conflicts. TIA Bill Feather River Solar Electric From roland at renewablenergy.com Thu Jul 16 13:13:12 2015 From: roland at renewablenergy.com (Roland Shackelford) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2015 07:13:12 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Energy In-Reply-To: <631606B8-AAE8-4D2A-9B58-E13FA696D8B0@starlightsolar.com> References: <55A7A180.70408@berkeleysolar.com> <631606B8-AAE8-4D2A-9B58-E13FA696D8B0@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Aloha All, We have been integrating Aquion Energy batteries into select Off Grid homes for just over a year now, with great success. The key is designing them for what they are, and not as if they were a lead acid battery. The biggest added design criteria is taking into consideration their power limitation's along with energy sizing. Most lead acid batteries only needed to be designed around energy and not power. Often, specially with Aquion first generation S10 stacks, sizing the battery around a customers power required a larger battery then their energy requirements. Aquion's first generation stacks had a very high impedance, causing large voltage swings with any thing larger then a 2 amp per stack charge or discharge cycle. If you designed a battery matching just the energy concerns, you would most likely run into power limitations and therefore the batteries voltage would drop below most inverters operating window. The first generation S10 stack, would drop down to 30V! Aquion's third generation S20P stack is currently shipping it has a much lower impedance allowing full capacity discharge above 40Vdc. Their ability to have a fluctuating SOC, and not require charging to 100% without shortening their cycle life is a major advantage over lead acid, not to mention, being the only non hazardous battery in the world, no maintenance and not requiring to be equalized. Mahalo, Roland Shackelford NABCEP CERTIFIED PV INSTALLER Vice President Renewable Energy Services (RES), Inc. 45-487 Lehua St. P.O. Box 1518 Honoka'a, HI 96727 Office: 808-775-7410 Fax: 808-775-7756 Mobile: *808-938-9239 * E-Mail: roland at renewablenergy.com www.renewablenergy.com *Privileged And Confidential Communication. This electronic transmission, and any documents attached hereto, (a) are protected by the Electronic Privacy Act (18 USC ?? 2510-2521), (b) may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information, and (c) are for the sole use of the intended recipient named above. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify the sender and delete the electronic message. Any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the contents of the information received in error is strictly prohibited. * *IRS Circular 230 Notice: Pursuant to the Internal Revenue Service requirements we inform you that, unless specifically indicated otherwise, any tax advise contained in this e-mail, including any attachments, is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, by the recipient or any other person for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties that may be imposed under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing, or recommending to another party any tax-related matter addressed herein. * On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 4:27 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems < larry at starlightsolar.com> wrote: > Hi Mark, > > There was some discussion back in November 2014 on this list. They claim > 100% DoD but I can’t see how you can use the full capacity of the battery > due to the broad operating voltage. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > On Jul 16, 2015, at 5:20 AM, Mark Frye wrote: > > Does anyone have any thoughts/experience with the Aquion Energy battery? > > Mark Frye > Berkeley Solar Electric Systems > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Thu Jul 16 13:54:18 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2015 10:54:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator brains In-Reply-To: <09A7F65DDBE447458C90DDF70284EA4B@D8XG8YH1> References: <55A7A180.70408@berkeleysolar.com> <631606B8-AAE8-4D2A-9B58-E13FA696D8B0@starlightsolar.com> <09A7F65DDBE447458C90DDF70284EA4B@D8XG8YH1> Message-ID: <3E18BF53-EB33-4077-A33F-D40837DAAFBA@sindelarsolar.com> Bill, This is the new reality, for better or worse. Most gennies are primarily built for residential backup and use the grid AC to maintain readiness. In a new installation, running one more conductor to carry system AC for the generator, often no larger than 14awg, with the output and signal bundle, makes the gennie's tare just another base load. > On Jul 16, 2015, at 8:03 AM, "frenergy" wrote: > > Wrenches, > > We recently discussed the significant load the brains of many gensets requires, especially in off-grid. I have been trying to keep the start battery and brains of a Kohler 14KW gen charged with a ~40 PV. This works fine until the winter. > > Any issues with keeping that PV connected (with its charge controller) and re-connecting the supplied-by-Kohler power source connection to keep the battery and brains happy? I would like to think the PV would take some of the load off the AC connection to the main off-grid system, with no conflicts. > > TIA > > Bill > Feather River Solar Electric > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From tump at swnl.net Thu Jul 16 13:55:17 2015 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2015 13:55:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator brains In-Reply-To: <09A7F65DDBE447458C90DDF70284EA4B@D8XG8YH1> References: <55A7A180.70408@berkeleysolar.com> <631606B8-AAE8-4D2A-9B58-E13FA696D8B0@starlightsolar.com> <09A7F65DDBE447458C90DDF70284EA4B@D8XG8YH1> Message-ID: Using a Atksen Gen wizard will allow the installer to have a; start on low starter battery voltage as well as start on low temp feature. If its a propane unit I always use the carb heater 1) helps the unit start &20 cycles the unit more often in the winter due to the load of the carb heater. OR Why don't you set the ex period for a shorter cycle say 3 days? On Jul 16, 2015, at 11:03 AM, frenergy wrote: > Wrenches, > > We recently discussed the significant load the brains of many gensets requires, especially in off-grid. I have been trying to keep the start battery and brains of a Kohler 14KW gen charged with a ~40 PV. This works fine until the winter. > > Any issues with keeping that PV connected (with its charge controller) and re-connecting the supplied-by-Kohler power source connection to keep the battery and brains happy? I would like to think the PV would take some of the load off the AC connection to the main off-grid system, with no conflicts. > > TIA > > Bill > Feather River Solar Electric > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Thu Jul 16 14:03:22 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2015 11:03:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator brains In-Reply-To: <09A7F65DDBE447458C90DDF70284EA4B@D8XG8YH1> References: <55A7A180.70408@berkeleysolar.com> <631606B8-AAE8-4D2A-9B58-E13FA696D8B0@starlightsolar.com> <09A7F65DDBE447458C90DDF70284EA4B@D8XG8YH1> Message-ID: <941B0AB2-C49D-4CAA-B348-6ACDCD888A43@sindelarsolar.com> (Accidentally hit send before finished) A few years ago we addressed this on a Kohler 11RES installation. We put a 20w module and controller on the starting battery for the control load. The other loads - carb heater and something else I don't recall - ran off the inverter's AC, but with a manual spring-wound timer at the gennie. That way the heater load only runs when needed to prepare for a cold-weather start. Works well. Allan, Sindelar Solar > On Jul 16, 2015, at 8:03 AM, "frenergy" wrote: > > Wrenches, > > We recently discussed the significant load the brains of many gensets requires, especially in off-grid. I have been trying to keep the start battery and brains of a Kohler 14KW gen charged with a ~40 PV. This works fine until the winter. > > Any issues with keeping that PV connected (with its charge controller) and re-connecting the supplied-by-Kohler power source connection to keep the battery and brains happy? I would like to think the PV would take some of the load off the AC connection to the main off-grid system, with no conflicts. > > TIA > > Bill > Feather River Solar Electric > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From William.White at rgsenergy.com Thu Jul 16 14:04:54 2015 From: William.White at rgsenergy.com (Will White) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2015 18:04:54 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator brains In-Reply-To: <3E18BF53-EB33-4077-A33F-D40837DAAFBA@sindelarsolar.com> References: <55A7A180.70408@berkeleysolar.com> <631606B8-AAE8-4D2A-9B58-E13FA696D8B0@starlightsolar.com> <09A7F65DDBE447458C90DDF70284EA4B@D8XG8YH1> <3E18BF53-EB33-4077-A33F-D40837DAAFBA@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: This is what I did at my house. There's large conductors going to the house for the generator output and small conductors coming back from the main load center to power the charger and electronics. I live off the grid and the load isn't noticeable. Thanks, Will Will White Director of Construction - East Coast RGS Energy 64 Main St. |Montpelier, VT 05602 tel 802.223.7804 | mobile 802.234.3167 | fax 802.223.8980 RGSEnergy.com | william.white at rgsenergy.com -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2015 1:54 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator brains Bill, This is the new reality, for better or worse. Most gennies are primarily built for residential backup and use the grid AC to maintain readiness. In a new installation, running one more conductor to carry system AC for the generator, often no larger than 14awg, with the output and signal bundle, makes the gennie's tare just another base load. > On Jul 16, 2015, at 8:03 AM, "frenergy" wrote: > > Wrenches, > > We recently discussed the significant load the brains of many gensets requires, especially in off-grid. I have been trying to keep the start battery and brains of a Kohler 14KW gen charged with a ~40 PV. This works fine until the winter. > > Any issues with keeping that PV connected (with its charge controller) and re-connecting the supplied-by-Kohler power source connection to keep the battery and brains happy? I would like to think the PV would take some of the load off the AC connection to the main off-grid system, with no conflicts. > > TIA > > Bill > Feather River Solar Electric > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Thu Jul 16 12:03:21 2015 From: Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com (Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2015 12:03:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Energy In-Reply-To: <55A7A180.70408@berkeleysolar.com> References: <55A7A180.70408@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: Hi: There was a lot of talk about on this forum some months ago. Aquion is a very unique word, so a keyword search should work very well. Michael, is there a method by which we can do a keyword search of past posts? JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Mark Frye To: RE-wrenches , Date: 07/16/2015 05:20 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Energy Sent by: "RE-wrenches" Does anyone have any thoughts/experience with the Aquion Energy battery? Mark Frye Berkeley Solar Electric Systems _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Thu Jul 16 12:26:57 2015 From: Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com (Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2015 12:26:57 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator brains In-Reply-To: <09A7F65DDBE447458C90DDF70284EA4B@D8XG8YH1> References: <55A7A180.70408@berkeleysolar.com> <631606B8-AAE8-4D2A-9B58-E13FA696D8B0@starlightsolar.com> <09A7F65DDBE447458C90DDF70284EA4B@D8XG8YH1> Message-ID: Hi: Having both connected will work the way you want, only if you make sure the solar charger charging voltage is higher than the Kohler charger voltage. When the solar charging source has higher voltage it will trump the lower Kohler charging voltage an do the charging when the sun is out. When the sun is not out, the Kohler will do the job. However, if the solar charging source is never higher, the solar charger will not be able to create any charging current as it will always see an already high battery terminal voltage as maintained by the Kohler. If there is no charging voltage adjustment on the Solar or Kohler charger, you could put one, (or more as required) diodes, in series on the Kohler charging wire to drop its voltage enough to make sure the solar charger voltage is slightly higher. The diodes could be anything as long as they can handle the full charge current from the Kohler. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: "frenergy" To: "RE-wrenches" , Date: 07/16/2015 08:23 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator brains Sent by: "RE-wrenches" Wrenches, We recently discussed the significant load the brains of many gensets requires, especially in off-grid. I have been trying to keep the start battery and brains of a Kohler 14KW gen charged with a ~40 PV. This works fine until the winter. Any issues with keeping that PV connected (with its charge controller) and re-connecting the supplied-by-Kohler power source connection to keep the battery and brains happy? I would like to think the PV would take some of the load off the AC connection to the main off-grid system, with no conflicts. TIA Bill Feather River Solar Electric _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From peter.parrish at calsolareng.com Thu Jul 16 12:08:57 2015 From: peter.parrish at calsolareng.com (Peter Parrish) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2015 09:08:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trina Module Annual Degradation In-Reply-To: <09A7F65DDBE447458C90DDF70284EA4B@D8XG8YH1> References: <55A7A180.70408@berkeleysolar.com> <631606B8-AAE8-4D2A-9B58-E13FA696D8B0@starlightsolar.com> <09A7F65DDBE447458C90DDF70284EA4B@D8XG8YH1> Message-ID: <019001d0bfe1$b90c1cf0$2b2456d0$@parrish@calsolareng.com> I have recently been in discussion with a company that builds a large number of medium-sized PV ground mount system (30 kW to over 100 kW). They claim that they have been seeing something on the order of 0.7% annual degradation in the output of their systems due to intrinsic degradation in the PV modules. They also claim that this number is supported by the PV module manufacturer. Many years ago (2007?) I remember reading a report containing data gathered by NREL that showed the number was about 0.4%, and I thought the number was actually decreasing over time. The module in question is the Trina TSM-310 (PA14.8, I believe, if it makes any difference). Has anyone read anything recent about annual degradation in general or Trina modules in particular? - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 NABCEP Certified PV Installer #031806-26 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com From Steve.Jefferson at sma-america.com Thu Jul 16 13:05:36 2015 From: Steve.Jefferson at sma-america.com (Steve Jefferson) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2015 17:05:36 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island Sizing In-Reply-To: <275A1416-BD7A-478F-BD5E-2F4957D96BD2@swnl.net> References: <3D0B04D8-11AE-4E39-9806-7575FF4C03B4@swnl.net> <5888CD3F-5350-46AB-B3C1-94AD6867718F@gmail.com> <41FE255D65D554478C3B17F3EB5410EF913A377E@SVR-US-EXMBX-01.sma.de> <50235.66.117.140.17.1436814567.squirrel@webmail.lmi.net> <41FE255D65D554478C3B17F3EB5410EF913A4354@SVR-US-EXMBX-01.sma.de> <55A46B2B.6000808@charter.net> <275A1416-BD7A-478F-BD5E-2F4957D96BD2@swnl.net> Message-ID: <41FE255D65D554478C3B17F3EB5410EF913A554B@SVR-US-EXMBX-01.sma.de> You know, I think I mis-spoke about not offering design support. We do offer design support, and it is called the SMA Off-Grid Configurator (much like the Sunny Design Tool). There is both a free and a paid version. Found here: http://www.sma-america.com/products/planning-software/sma-off-grid-configurator.html If you have questions about this support tool, or anything else. Please contact me off-list. Thanks SMA America, LLC Steve Jefferson Service Line Supervisor 3925 Atherton Ave Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714 U.S.A. Tel: +1 916 625 3185 (direct) Fax: +1 916 625 0871 Mobile: +1 916 622 4253 Email: Steve.jefferson at SMA-America.com www.SMA-America.com [cid:image001.png at 01CF1CFA.FE18BEB0] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Tump Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2015 9:12 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island Sizing I must concur w/ Bill, this is somewhat troubling to me as well. THE ONE thing that has kept me using the SMA product line WAS the access to quality products and personnel that has always been supportive with not only design questions but trouble shooting and prompt compensaited component swap out in a warrantee situation. This industry has ALWAYS been plagued w/ vapor ware, products looming on the horizon and over stated product performance that we as installers and the folks who are contributing to the bottom line of the manus have to rectify and explain to our clients that we were sold a bill of goods that the manus are not able to deliver. This is just the products.... not to mention the musical chair scenario for personnel that also seems to plague this industry...... most reciently & NOT only, Greg Smith & quite a few other valuable & enthusiastic former SMA persons recently let go! oh and lets not forget Sandra Herrera formerly of Xantrex. Were these folks let go or leave due to their frustration caused by lack of corporate responses to the problems with their products in industry? Can you say; SI inverters that have yet to see the light of day or the battery over charging firmware of the Connex series, in the AC coupled mode!..... that has yet to be discussed on this list. NO it is quite easy for persons "not to be dramatic", who get a pay check despite vapor ware or the inability of quality design and service persons to help those of us paying their salary. Tump On Jul 13, 2015, at 9:51 PM, Bill Loesch wrote: Steve, "Let's not be dramatic."(?) Three messages on the same subject in three minutes? Please, please, "Let's not be dramatic." I'm glad your multiple posts slipped by the Moderator, it shows your foresight, planning and motivation. If this newsgroup is going to assist fellow wrenches, then I must ask, "Why, out of all the products that SMA manufactures/supports has the Sunny Boy design assistance fell out of disfavor? That info might be more relevant than your other responses and why the RE-wrenches is open to manufacturers. Respectfully, Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 On 13-Jul-15 2:17 PM, Steve Jefferson wrote: Let's not be dramatic. Of course our marketing and sales team will feature new products when they are coming to market. Thanks SMA America, LLC Steve Jefferson Contact Center Supervisor 3925 Atherton Ave Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714 U.S.A. Tel: +1 916 625 3185 (direct) Fax: +1 916 625 0871 Mobile: +1 916 622 4253 Email: Steve.jefferson at SMA-America.com www.SMA-America.com This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of markf at berkeleysolar.com Sent: Monday, July 13, 2015 12:09 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island Sizing So when these great changes come out, we have to call a distributor to learn about them? The Sunny Island is not going anywhere, in fact there are some great changes coming soon. SMA America, LLC Steve Jefferson Service Line Supervisor 3925 Atherton Ave Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714 U.S.A. Tel: +1 916 625 3185 (direct) Fax: +1 916 625 0871 Mobile: +1 916 622 4253 Email: Steve.jefferson at SMA-America.com [cid:image001.png at 01CF1CFA.FE18BEB0] WzPuyqhzo&feature=youtu.be> This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2015 5:14 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island Sizing Out of curiosity what is the design question? And I'd heard rumors that SMA was dropping the SI in the USA. Know anyone going to intersolar? I bet there are Sma folks there Jay Sent from my iPhone On Jul 8, 2015, at 4:32 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez > wrote: Still no luck with SMA. I did have one call back and waited for an email, with no avail. I have since sent numerous emails to people mentioned on this list. I hope the support after the sale is better! Not sure if I should even be putting this on the wrenches list or not. I know it doesn't apply to working in the field, but..... Jeremy Rodriguez All Solar, Inc. 1463 M Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! On Jun 25, 2015, at 4:07 PM, Tump > wrote: While they recently have down sized their staff I find this surprising. I have CCed an engineer and someone you can Btch slap...... enjoy Greg! TUMP Contact me off list if you still have a problem I do SI/SB installs On Jun 25, 2015, at 9:00 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: Hello So far I've been unsuccessful in getting SMA to return a call Does anyone have a direct line to one of their design engineers? •Off grid SI/SB 3Phase Help..... Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org .org> Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist .html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm .htm> Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Tump at swnl.net> www.SWNL.net> Solarwinds Northernlights Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 Blair "TUMP" May ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org .org> Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist .html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm .htm> Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org .org> Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist .html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm .htm> Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist .html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6081 / Virus Database: 4392/10224 - Release Date: 07/13/15 No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6081 / Virus Database: 4392/10224 - Release Date: 07/13/15 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net Solarwinds Northernlights Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 Blair "TUMP" May ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 30736 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Thu Jul 16 15:13:08 2015 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2015 12:13:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Energy In-Reply-To: References: <55A7A180.70408@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: <440985.70843.bm@smtp116.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Jul 16 15:14:13 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2015 13:14:13 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Energy In-Reply-To: <55A7A180.70408@berkeleysolar.com> References: <55A7A180.70408@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: <007801d0bffb$9a545920$cefd0b60$@com> I just asked the same question to Brad @AEE, they have a set hooked up for test but test has not started yet. From an environmental point of view they are safer than anything on the market. I attempted to contact Aquion, I have emailed & called, I left several messages and never heard back. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mark Frye Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2015 6:20 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Energy Does anyone have any thoughts/experience with the Aquion Energy battery? Mark Frye Berkeley Solar Electric Systems _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From james at abundantsolar.com Thu Jul 16 16:21:25 2015 From: james at abundantsolar.com (James Reismiller) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2015 13:21:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Substitute for Solmetric? Message-ID: <001201d0c004$fdd34cf0$f979e6d0$@abundantsolar.com> Hi Folks, My ~7 year old Solmetric 110n is having issues and I’m looking for a substitute. Seeing that Solmetric was bought by another company and the 210 is discontinued, I’m hoping to find a similar site evaluation tool that would be acceptable to incentive programs. I really don’t want to go back to my Pathfinder if I can help it. Any news on another tool? There must be something that is used in Europe for example to easily make suncharts. Regards, James Reismiller NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® Abundant Solar 541-231-8772 CCB#175919 www.abundantsolar.com ”I’d put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don’t have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that.”-Thomas Edison -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 5025 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Jul 16 17:32:21 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2015 11:32:21 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Energy In-Reply-To: <55A7A180.70408@berkeleysolar.com> References: <55A7A180.70408@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: Wrenches We did research on this battery going back close to two years, we found that there was an unusable part of the battery capacity that was to far out of range to consider refer to the charts from Aquion, also look at the mass or space required. I do like the idea but the "cupcake" holder has such a large amount of wasted space that we are holding back on it. space shipping and usable capacity did not add up compared to other technologies Jerry On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 2:20 AM, Mark Frye wrote: > Does anyone have any thoughts/experience with the Aquion Energy battery? > > Mark Frye > Berkeley Solar Electric Systems > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com Thu Jul 16 18:13:22 2015 From: solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com (Solar Energy Solutions) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2015 22:13:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Substitute for Solmetric? In-Reply-To: <001201d0c004$fdd34cf0$f979e6d0$@abundantsolar.com> References: <001201d0c004$fdd34cf0$f979e6d0$@abundantsolar.com> Message-ID: <371160826.2509439.1437084802605.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Jaimes and All, We have been using the updated Pathfinder software for Windows tablets with great success.  The software is only compatible with Widows, Not Androids or Apple or anything else.  Check out the link below and the Pathfinder staff have been super easy to work with.  We raced out to buy a cheapo pad as soon as we discovered this latest and greatest TSRF breakthrough! http://www.solarpathfinder.com/APV   Andrew KoyaanisqatsiPresidentSolar Energy Solutions, Inc.Since 1987,Moving Portland and Beyond to an Environmentally Sustainable Future.503-238-4502 www.SolarEnergyOregon.com "Better one's House too little one daythan too big all the Year after." On Thursday, July 16, 2015 1:21 PM, James Reismiller wrote: Hi Folks,My ~7 year old Solmetric 110n is having issues and I’m looking for a substitute.  Seeing that Solmetric was bought by another company and the 210 is discontinued, I’m hoping to find a similar site evaluation tool that would be acceptable to incentive programs.  I really don’t want to go back to my Pathfinder if I can help it.  Any news on another tool?  There must be something  that is used in Europe for example to easily make suncharts.  Regards,James ReismillerNABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer®Abundant Solar541-231-8772CCB#175919www.abundantsolar.com  ”I’d put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don’t have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that.”-Thomas Edison     _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 5025 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jul 16 21:24:37 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2015 18:24:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trina Module Annual Degradation In-Reply-To: <55a7f6fb.48ed420a.316a.733cSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <55A7A180.70408@berkeleysolar.com> <631606B8-AAE8-4D2A-9B58-E13FA696D8B0@starlightsolar.com> <09A7F65DDBE447458C90DDF70284EA4B@D8XG8YH1> <55a7f6fb.48ed420a.316a.733cSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: HI Peter, I’ll bite. From the folks I know who deal with multi mega watt systems, are seeing less than that level of degradation. That said, the standard module 25 yr warranty to 80% is just on .7% year if I have my math correct. jay peltz power > On Jul 16, 2015, at 9:08 AM, Peter Parrish wrote: > > I have recently been in discussion with a company that builds a large number > of medium-sized PV ground mount system (30 kW to over 100 kW). They claim > that they have been seeing something on the order of 0.7% annual degradation > in the output of their systems due to intrinsic degradation in the PV > modules. They also claim that this number is supported by the PV module > manufacturer. Many years ago (2007?) I remember reading a report containing > data gathered by NREL that showed the number was about 0.4%, and I thought > the number was actually decreasing over time. > > The module in question is the Trina TSM-310 (PA14.8, I believe, if it makes > any difference). > > Has anyone read anything recent about annual degradation in general or Trina > modules in particular? > > - Peter > > Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. > President, SolarGnosis > 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > NABCEP Certified PV Installer #031806-26 > (323) 839-6108 > petertor at pobox.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From boB at midnitesolar.com Thu Jul 16 22:01:32 2015 From: boB at midnitesolar.com (boB at midnitesolar.com) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2015 19:01:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trina Module Annual Degradation In-Reply-To: References: <55A7A180.70408@berkeleysolar.com> <631606B8-AAE8-4D2A-9B58-E13FA696D8B0@starlightsolar.com> <09A7F65DDBE447458C90DDF70284EA4B@D8XG8YH1> <55a7f6fb.48ed420a.316a.733cSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <55A861FC.4050301@midnitesolar.com> It's too bad that when a module goes to a REAL high degradation, like, 100% down to nothing before that 25 year "warranty" is up, that it is NOT considered degradation and is not covered under "warranty". P.S. This has nothing to do with Trina or any PV company in particular. boB On 7/16/2015 6:24 PM, jay wrote: > HI Peter, > > I’ll bite. > > From the folks I know who deal with multi mega watt systems, are seeing less than that level of degradation. > > That said, the standard module 25 yr warranty to 80% is just on .7% year if I have my math correct. > > jay > > peltz power > > > > >> On Jul 16, 2015, at 9:08 AM, Peter Parrish wrote: >> >> I have recently been in discussion with a company that builds a large number >> of medium-sized PV ground mount system (30 kW to over 100 kW). They claim >> that they have been seeing something on the order of 0.7% annual degradation >> in the output of their systems due to intrinsic degradation in the PV >> modules. They also claim that this number is supported by the PV module >> manufacturer. Many years ago (2007?) I remember reading a report containing >> data gathered by NREL that showed the number was about 0.4%, and I thought >> the number was actually decreasing over time. >> >> The module in question is the Trina TSM-310 (PA14.8, I believe, if it makes >> any difference). >> >> Has anyone read anything recent about annual degradation in general or Trina >> modules in particular? >> >> - Peter >> >> Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. >> President, SolarGnosis >> 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 >> South Pasadena, CA 91030 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installer #031806-26 >> (323) 839-6108 >> petertor at pobox.com >> >> From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Jul 17 01:33:19 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2015 19:33:19 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trina Module Annual Degradation Message-ID: <5wekotfdd3tbx5ixyqk9ewa9.1437110218613@email.android.com> Wrenches We used to use Sharp but now its Trina,  containers of 250 watt modules,  data logging has not shown any abnormal power loss. Now that I say this Trina as the story  goes debates there data so that is true it softens the blow a little. I have seen  some another brand that are cracking poly cells looks like snail tracks, manufacture says it does not effect performance Jerry Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: boB at midnitesolar.com
Date:07/16/2015 4:01 PM (GMT-10:00)
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trina Module Annual Degradation
It's too bad that when a module goes to a REAL high degradation, like, 100% down to nothing before that 25 year "warranty" is up, that it is NOT considered degradation and is not covered under "warranty". P.S. This has nothing to do with Trina or any PV company in particular. boB On 7/16/2015 6:24 PM, jay wrote: > HI Peter, > > I’ll bite. > > From the folks I know who deal with multi mega watt systems, are seeing less than that level of degradation. > > That said, the standard module 25 yr warranty to 80% is just on .7% year if I have my math correct. > > jay > > peltz power > > > > >> On Jul 16, 2015, at 9:08 AM, Peter Parrish wrote: >> >> I have recently been in discussion with a company that builds a large number >> of medium-sized PV ground mount system (30 kW to over 100 kW). They claim >> that they have been seeing something on the order of 0.7% annual degradation >> in the output of their systems due to intrinsic degradation in the PV >> modules. They also claim that this number is supported by the PV module >> manufacturer. Many years ago (2007?) I remember reading a report containing >> data gathered by NREL that showed the number was about 0.4%, and I thought >> the number was actually decreasing over time. >> >> The module in question is the Trina TSM-310 (PA14.8, I believe, if it makes >> any difference). >> >> Has anyone read anything recent about annual degradation in general or Trina >> modules in particular? >> >> - Peter >> >> Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. >> President, SolarGnosis >> 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 >> South Pasadena, CA 91030 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installer #031806-26 >> (323) 839-6108 >> petertor at pobox.com >> >> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Fri Jul 17 07:48:46 2015 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 07:48:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC conductors in metallic raceway/conduit In-Reply-To: <001b01d0bd8d$8f168300$ad438900$@com> References: <55A3DC49.3020509@gmail.com> <55A3EE40.8070900@entech-engineering.com> <001b01d0bd8d$8f168300$ad438900$@com> Message-ID: <55A8EB9E.1090706@entech-engineering.com> The reason behind this rule, going back through some history, was to reduce the possibility of a nail penetrating hidden conduit (conduit behind a wall). Since the conduit is exposed/visible, the chances of that action happening are small to none. So, the installer is saying that a literal interpretation is not consistent with the intent of the NEC. May have to ask the AHJ for their position. On 7/13/2015 1:01 PM, Dana wrote: > Your assumption is the rule here. Metal inside a building envelope and it cannot transition at the penetration it must be metal before entry. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dana Orzel > Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 > E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com > O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >  Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Christopher Warfel > Sent: Monday, July 13, 2015 10:59 AM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC conductors in metallic raceway/conduit > > I was under the assumption that dc conductors could only be run inside a building when in metallic raceway/conduit (up to a readily accessible > disconnect switch) . The building being occupied/residence. A > contractor ran 5 feet of pvc from the wall penetration to the charge controller in a concrete block garage. I don't see anything that allows this by what I find in the NEC. Has anyone have a reference that permits this? Thank you for any assistance. > > > > -- > Christopher Warfel, President > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > 401-466-8978 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel, President ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 100 bytes Desc: not available URL: From august at luminalt.com Fri Jul 17 09:55:23 2015 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 06:55:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trina Module Annual Degradation In-Reply-To: <55A861FC.4050301@midnitesolar.com> References: <55A7A180.70408@berkeleysolar.com> <631606B8-AAE8-4D2A-9B58-E13FA696D8B0@starlightsolar.com> <09A7F65DDBE447458C90DDF70284EA4B@D8XG8YH1> <55a7f6fb.48ed420a.316a.733cSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <55A861FC.4050301@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: <3044576add7e3d8fac786811b788a560@mail.gmail.com> boB - I am under the impression that a manufacturer module power output warranty is just that - a warranty to guarantee the power output at a certain minimum level unless a warranty exclusion occurred such as physical damage, incorrect installation, etc. So, if a module is producing zero power it could very well be covered under warranty. Best, August Luminalt -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of boB at midnitesolar.com Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2015 7:02 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trina Module Annual Degradation It's too bad that when a module goes to a REAL high degradation, like, 100% down to nothing before that 25 year "warranty" is up, that it is NOT considered degradation and is not covered under "warranty". P.S. This has nothing to do with Trina or any PV company in particular. boB On 7/16/2015 6:24 PM, jay wrote: > HI Peter, > > I’ll bite. > > From the folks I know who deal with multi mega watt systems, are seeing > less than that level of degradation. > > That said, the standard module 25 yr warranty to 80% is just on .7% year > if I have my math correct. > > jay > > peltz power > > > > >> On Jul 16, 2015, at 9:08 AM, Peter Parrish >> wrote: >> >> I have recently been in discussion with a company that builds a large >> number of medium-sized PV ground mount system (30 kW to over 100 kW). >> They claim that they have been seeing something on the order of 0.7% >> annual degradation in the output of their systems due to intrinsic >> degradation in the PV modules. They also claim that this number is >> supported by the PV module manufacturer. Many years ago (2007?) I >> remember reading a report containing data gathered by NREL that >> showed the number was about 0.4%, and I thought the number was actually >> decreasing over time. >> >> The module in question is the Trina TSM-310 (PA14.8, I believe, if it >> makes any difference). >> >> Has anyone read anything recent about annual degradation in general >> or Trina modules in particular? >> >> - Peter >> >> Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. >> President, SolarGnosis >> 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 >> South Pasadena, CA 91030 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installer #031806-26 >> (323) 839-6108 >> petertor at pobox.com >> >> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From sunengser at gmail.com Fri Jul 17 11:07:08 2015 From: sunengser at gmail.com (Bill Hoffer) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 08:07:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trina Module Annual Degradation In-Reply-To: <5wekotfdd3tbx5ixyqk9ewa9.1437110218613@email.android.com> References: <5wekotfdd3tbx5ixyqk9ewa9.1437110218613@email.android.com> Message-ID: Jerry Unfortunately snail trails are a clear indication of micro cracks that will in time open up and degrade the output of the module substantially. They may not have a performance problem yet , but give it time to show up! It usually takes awhile for the snail trail to appear, the micro cracks allow ions to pass through the cell attracted by the polarity and cause the discoloration around the micro cracks. I have heard of initial installs with them , which is a very bad sign, and the same response from the manufacturer that it does not effect performance ( yes they were flash tested with the micro cracks present). IMHO it is a manufacturing defect and has nothing to do with performance....yet, and should be covered under manufacturing defects! Good luck with that though! I am sure that we have had this problem all along, but because we are seeing 1000 vdc transformer-less systems it is occurring more quickly. Bill Hoffer On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 10:33 PM, jerrysgarage01 wrote: > Wrenches > We used to use Sharp but now its Trina, containers of 250 watt modules, > data logging has not shown any abnormal power loss. Now that I say this > Trina as the story goes debates there data so that is true it softens the > blow a little. I have seen some another brand that are cracking poly cells > looks like snail tracks, manufacture says it does not effect performance > Jerry > > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: boB at midnitesolar.com > Date:07/16/2015 4:01 PM (GMT-10:00) > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trina Module Annual Degradation > > > > It's too bad that when a module goes to a REAL high degradation, like, > 100% down to nothing > before that 25 year "warranty" is up, that it is NOT considered > degradation and is not covered > under "warranty". > > P.S. This has nothing to do with Trina or any PV company in particular. > > boB > > On 7/16/2015 6:24 PM, jay wrote: > > HI Peter, > > > > I’ll bite. > > > > From the folks I know who deal with multi mega watt systems, are seeing > less than that level of degradation. > > > > That said, the standard module 25 yr warranty to 80% is just on .7% > year if I have my math correct. > > > > jay > > > > peltz power > > > > > > > > > >> On Jul 16, 2015, at 9:08 AM, Peter Parrish < > peter.parrish at calsolareng.com> wrote: > >> > >> I have recently been in discussion with a company that builds a large > number > >> of medium-sized PV ground mount system (30 kW to over 100 kW). They > claim > >> that they have been seeing something on the order of 0.7% annual > degradation > >> in the output of their systems due to intrinsic degradation in the PV > >> modules. They also claim that this number is supported by the PV module > >> manufacturer. Many years ago (2007?) I remember reading a report > containing > >> data gathered by NREL that showed the number was about 0.4%, and I > thought > >> the number was actually decreasing over time. > >> > >> The module in question is the Trina TSM-310 (PA14.8, I believe, if it > makes > >> any difference). > >> > >> Has anyone read anything recent about annual degradation in general or > Trina > >> modules in particular? > >> > >> - Peter > >> > >> Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. > >> President, SolarGnosis > >> 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 > >> South Pasadena, CA 91030 > >> NABCEP Certified PV Installer #031806-26 > >> (323) 839-6108 > >> petertor at pobox.com > >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- William Hoffer 161 SE Fourth Ave P.O. Box 1823 White Salmon, WA 98672-1823 sunengser at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Jul 17 13:26:39 2015 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 11:26:39 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, I am working on a rapid shutdown design with an SMA multi-cluster box with 6 x 6048 Sunny Island Inverters, 2 per phase. I will be utilizing a Midnite system for some roof top combiners. Is there a way to shutdown the Sunny Islands via communication from the Midnite rapid shut down box? Or do I need to do shunt-trip breakering? Thanks -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Jul 17 13:42:40 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 07:42:40 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trina Module Annual Degradation In-Reply-To: References: <5wekotfdd3tbx5ixyqk9ewa9.1437110218613@email.android.com> Message-ID: I completely agree with you and the "snail trails" will effect the performance sooner then later, and the manufactures a kicking the can down the road. We are also a small scale 42 watt to 110 watt module manufacture and cracks are something we avoid at all costs. Jerry On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 5:07 AM, Bill Hoffer wrote: > Jerry > > Unfortunately snail trails are a clear indication of micro cracks that > will in time open up and degrade the output of the module substantially. > They may not have a performance problem yet , but give it time to show up! > It usually takes awhile for the snail trail to appear, the micro cracks > allow ions to pass through the cell attracted by the polarity and cause the > discoloration around the micro cracks. I have heard of initial installs > with them , which is a very bad sign, and the same response from the > manufacturer that it does not effect performance ( yes they were flash > tested with the micro cracks present). IMHO it is a manufacturing defect > and has nothing to do with performance....yet, and should be covered under > manufacturing defects! Good luck with that though! I am sure that we have > had this problem all along, but because we are seeing 1000 vdc > transformer-less systems it is occurring more quickly. > > Bill Hoffer > > On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 10:33 PM, jerrysgarage01 > wrote: > >> Wrenches >> We used to use Sharp but now its Trina, containers of 250 watt modules, >> data logging has not shown any abnormal power loss. Now that I say this >> Trina as the story goes debates there data so that is true it softens the >> blow a little. I have seen some another brand that are cracking poly cells >> looks like snail tracks, manufacture says it does not effect performance >> Jerry >> >> >> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone >> >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: boB at midnitesolar.com >> Date:07/16/2015 4:01 PM (GMT-10:00) >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trina Module Annual Degradation >> >> >> >> It's too bad that when a module goes to a REAL high degradation, like, >> 100% down to nothing >> before that 25 year "warranty" is up, that it is NOT considered >> degradation and is not covered >> under "warranty". >> >> P.S. This has nothing to do with Trina or any PV company in particular. >> >> boB >> >> On 7/16/2015 6:24 PM, jay wrote: >> > HI Peter, >> > >> > I’ll bite. >> > >> > From the folks I know who deal with multi mega watt systems, are >> seeing less than that level of degradation. >> > >> > That said, the standard module 25 yr warranty to 80% is just on .7% >> year if I have my math correct. >> > >> > jay >> > >> > peltz power >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> On Jul 16, 2015, at 9:08 AM, Peter Parrish < >> peter.parrish at calsolareng.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> I have recently been in discussion with a company that builds a large >> number >> >> of medium-sized PV ground mount system (30 kW to over 100 kW). They >> claim >> >> that they have been seeing something on the order of 0.7% annual >> degradation >> >> in the output of their systems due to intrinsic degradation in the PV >> >> modules. They also claim that this number is supported by the PV module >> >> manufacturer. Many years ago (2007?) I remember reading a report >> containing >> >> data gathered by NREL that showed the number was about 0.4%, and I >> thought >> >> the number was actually decreasing over time. >> >> >> >> The module in question is the Trina TSM-310 (PA14.8, I believe, if it >> makes >> >> any difference). >> >> >> >> Has anyone read anything recent about annual degradation in general or >> Trina >> >> modules in particular? >> >> >> >> - Peter >> >> >> >> Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. >> >> President, SolarGnosis >> >> 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 >> >> South Pasadena, CA 91030 >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installer #031806-26 >> >> (323) 839-6108 >> >> petertor at pobox.com >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > William Hoffer > 161 SE Fourth Ave > P.O. Box 1823 > White Salmon, WA 98672-1823 > sunengser at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Steve.Jefferson at sma-america.com Fri Jul 17 13:30:02 2015 From: Steve.Jefferson at sma-america.com (Steve Jefferson) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 17:30:02 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41FE255D65D554478C3B17F3EB5410EF913A5967@SVR-US-EXMBX-01.sma.de> Mac, Do you mean to ask for a way to shut down the Sunny Boys connected to the Multicluster box? Sunny Islands are not applicable to the rapid shutdown requirements. They are not PV. SMA America, LLC Steve Jefferson Service Line Supervisor 3925 Atherton Ave Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714 U.S.A. Tel: +1 916 625 3185 (direct) Fax: +1 916 625 0871 Mobile: +1 916 622 4253 Email: Steve.jefferson at SMA-America.com www.SMA-America.com [cid:image001.png at 01CF1CFA.FE18BEB0] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mac Lewis Sent: Friday, July 17, 2015 10:27 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Hi Wrenches, I am working on a rapid shutdown design with an SMA multi-cluster box with 6 x 6048 Sunny Island Inverters, 2 per phase. I will be utilizing a Midnite system for some roof top combiners. Is there a way to shutdown the Sunny Islands via communication from the Midnite rapid shut down box? Or do I need to do shunt-trip breakering? Thanks -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 30736 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Jul 17 15:14:35 2015 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 13:14:35 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown In-Reply-To: <41FE255D65D554478C3B17F3EB5410EF913A5967@SVR-US-EXMBX-01.sma.de> References: <41FE255D65D554478C3B17F3EB5410EF913A5967@SVR-US-EXMBX-01.sma.de> Message-ID: Hey Steve, Yes I'm reading that code article closely and I think its open to interpretation. If you consider PV circuits to include the battery based inverters, you would need to include them in rapid shutdown. For some reason I thought it applied to all of the DC conductors, including the battery cabling, but it looks like that isn't explicitly called out. Midnites system does have a way to do it.. That will probably show up on the next code cycle. Thanks for pointing that out. On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 11:30 AM, Steve Jefferson < Steve.Jefferson at sma-america.com> wrote: > Mac, > > > > Do you mean to ask for a way to shut down the Sunny Boys connected to the > Multicluster box? > > Sunny Islands are not applicable to the rapid shutdown requirements. They > are not PV. > > > > SMA America, LLC > > Steve Jefferson > > Service Line Supervisor > > 3925 Atherton Ave > > Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714 > > U.S.A. > > Tel: +1 916 625 3185 (direct) > > Fax: +1 916 625 0871 > > Mobile: +1 916 622 4253 > > Email: Steve.jefferson at SMA-America.com > > www.SMA-America.com > > > > [image: cid:image001.png at 01CF1CFA.FE18BEB0] > > > > > This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC > confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the > intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or > any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not > the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and > permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any > attachments thereto. Thank you. > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Mac Lewis > *Sent:* Friday, July 17, 2015 10:27 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown > > > > Hi Wrenches, > > > > I am working on a rapid shutdown design with an SMA multi-cluster box with > 6 x 6048 Sunny Island Inverters, 2 per phase. I will be utilizing a > Midnite system for some roof top combiners. Is there a way to shutdown the > Sunny Islands via communication from the Midnite rapid shut down box? Or > do I need to do shunt-trip breakering? > > > > Thanks > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." *-Sócrates* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 30736 bytes Desc: not available URL: From boB at midnitesolar.com Fri Jul 17 21:03:38 2015 From: boB at midnitesolar.com (boB at midnitesolar.com) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 18:03:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown In-Reply-To: References: <41FE255D65D554478C3B17F3EB5410EF913A5967@SVR-US-EXMBX-01.sma.de> Message-ID: <55A9A5EA.7030606@midnitesolar.com> FYI... Every [Midnite] SMA E-Panel comes with a shunt trip breaker. SMA requested this when they asked MidNite to design an E-Panel for them. You will need the battery disconnect module to go with each E-Panel though. The battery disconnect modules connect to the Birdhouse and to the shunt trip breakers. Robin On 7/17/2015 12:14 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > Hey Steve, > > Yes I'm reading that code article closely and I think its open to > interpretation. If you consider PV circuits to include the battery > based inverters, you would need to include them in rapid shutdown. > > For some reason I thought it applied to all of the DC conductors, > including the battery cabling, but it looks like that isn't explicitly > called out. Midnites system does have a way to do it.. That will > probably show up on the next code cycle. > > Thanks for pointing that out. > > On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 11:30 AM, Steve Jefferson > > wrote: > > Mac, > > Do you mean to ask for a way to shut down the Sunny Boys connected > to the Multicluster box? > > Sunny Islands are not applicable to the rapid shutdown > requirements. They are not PV. > > SMA America, LLC > > Steve Jefferson > > Service Line Supervisor > > 3925 Atherton Ave > > Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714 > > U.S.A. > > Tel: +1 916 625 3185 (direct) > > Fax: +1 916 625 0871 > > Mobile: +1 916 622 4253 > > Email: Steve.jefferson at SMA-America.com > > > www.SMA-America.com > > cid:image001.png at 01CF1CFA.FE18BEB0 > > > This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, > LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use > of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of > this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly > prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact > the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any > copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. > > *From:*RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of > *Mac Lewis > *Sent:* Friday, July 17, 2015 10:27 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown > > Hi Wrenches, > > I am working on a rapid shutdown design with an SMA multi-cluster > box with 6 x 6048 Sunny Island Inverters, 2 per phase. I will be > utilizing a Midnite system for some roof top combiners. Is there > a way to shutdown the Sunny Islands via communication from the > Midnite rapid shut down box? Or do I need to do shunt-trip > breakering? > > Thanks > > Mac Lewis** > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." *-Sócrates*** > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 30736 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solar1online at charter.net Sat Jul 18 06:29:17 2015 From: solar1online at charter.net (solar1online at charter.net) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2015 05:29:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trina Module Annual Degradation Message-ID: boB, Can you expand on the warranty coverage in this situation? TIA, Bill -----------------------------------------From: "boB at midnitesolar.com" To: "RE-wrenches" Cc: Sent: Thu, 16 Jul 2015 19:01:32 -0700 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trina Module Annual Degradation It's too bad that when a module goes to a REAL high degradation, like, 100% down to nothing before that 25 year "warranty" is up, that it is NOT considered degradation and is not covered under "warranty". P.S. This has nothing to do with Trina or any PV company in particular. boB On 7/16/2015 6:24 PM, jay wrote: > HI Peter, > > I’ll bite. > > From the folks I know who deal with multi mega watt systems, are seeing less than that level of degradation. > > That said, the standard module 25 yr warranty to 80% is just on .7% year if I have my math correct. > > jay > > peltz power > > > > >> On Jul 16, 2015, at 9:08 AM, Peter Parrish wrote: >> >> I have recently been in discussion with a company that builds a large number >> of medium-sized PV ground mount system (30 kW to over 100 kW). They claim >> that they have been seeing something on the order of 0.7% annual degradation >> in the output of their systems due to intrinsic degradation in the PV >> modules. They also claim that this number is supported by the PV module >> manufacturer. Many years ago (2007?) I remember reading a report containing >> data gathered by NREL that showed the number was about 0.4%, and I thought >> the number was actually decreasing over time. >> >> The module in question is the Trina TSM-310 (PA14.8, I believe, if it makes >> any difference). >> >> Has anyone read anything recent about annual degradation in general or Trina >> modules in particular? >> >> - Peter >> >> Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. >> President, SolarGnosis >> 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 >> South Pasadena, CA 91030 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installer #031806-26 >> (323) 839-6108 >> petertor at pobox.com >> >> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Jul 18 06:58:25 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2015 12:58:25 +0200 Subject: [RE-wrenches] APT Beaker Message-ID: <3F01181E-86D6-4172-B97E-E506D94E1107@millersolar.com> Friends: I am adding an MPPT charge controller to a functioning APT power center. I need one breaker for the job. The breakers are like those used in the Trace DC250 cabinets but surface mount. Where do I look for one of these, please? Thank you very much. William From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Jul 18 11:46:42 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2015 08:46:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] armored phone wire In-Reply-To: References: <3F01181E-86D6-4172-B97E-E506D94E1107@millersolar.com> Message-ID: <1309B0C4-B687-49BB-8F04-423C9FB9FCBA@gmail.com> HI All, I”m wondering if its a sign of the times, but I can’t find armored phone wire anymore. 18-19ga, 2 pair, 700' Any recommendations? thanks jay peltz power From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Jul 18 11:45:07 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2015 08:45:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] APT Beaker In-Reply-To: <3F01181E-86D6-4172-B97E-E506D94E1107@millersolar.com> References: <3F01181E-86D6-4172-B97E-E506D94E1107@millersolar.com> Message-ID: HI William, AEE carries them. Pg 173, CF/GJ breakers. jay > On Jul 18, 2015, at 3:58 AM, William Miller wrote: > > Friends: > > I am adding an MPPT charge controller to a functioning APT power center. I need one breaker for the job. The breakers are like those used in the Trace DC250 cabinets but surface mount. Where do I look for one of these, please? > > Thank you very much. > > William > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From boB at midnitesolar.com Sat Jul 18 14:09:52 2015 From: boB at midnitesolar.com (boB at midnitesolar.com) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2015 11:09:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trina Module Annual Degradation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55AA9670.9000002@midnitesolar.com> Hi Bill From what I understand, and I have asked this question to different people at different companies, the 25 year warranty people hear about concerning PV is not for a broken panel within 25 years but the degradation in performance over the years. If a PV module just plain old "breaks" (goes to zero output) in, say 20 years and it has a 25 year degradation warranty, the PV manufacturer, (if still in business), is not obligated to replace the defective module.... ...Even if it resulted from a factory defect. I do not know what the warranty period is for manufacturing defects. I hear warranty times of around 10 years. I am not exactly sure on that though. Having said all this, there are companies that do replace modules after their short term memory is up due to manufacturing defects. Kyocera comes to mind immediately. These are typically larger companies from what I see. I'm just repeating what I have heard over the years regarding PV. It just seems to me somewhat misleading the words "25 year warranty". There may be some companies that actually DO offer a full 25 yr. warranty these days but what if they aren't around before then ? I bet that Bill Hoffer could offer way better information than I can about this. boB On 7/18/2015 3:29 AM, solar1online at charter.net wrote: > boB, > Can you expand on the warranty coverage in this situation? > TIA, > Bill > > ----------------------------------------- > > From: "boB at midnitesolar.com" > To: "RE-wrenches" > Cc: > Sent: Thu, 16 Jul 2015 19:01:32 -0700 > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trina Module Annual Degradation > > > > It's too bad that when a module goes to a REAL high degradation, like, > 100% down to nothing > before that 25 year "warranty" is up, that it is NOT considered > degradation and is not covered > under "warranty". > > P.S. This has nothing to do with Trina or any PV company in particular. > > boB > > On 7/16/2015 6:24 PM, jay wrote: > > HI Peter, > > > > I’ll bite. > > > > From the folks I know who deal with multi mega watt systems, are > seeing less than that level of degradation. > > > > That said, the standard module 25 yr warranty to 80% is just on .7% > year if I have my math correct. > > > > jay > > > > peltz power > > > > > > > > > >> On Jul 16, 2015, at 9:08 AM, Peter Parrish > wrote: > >> > >> I have recently been in discussion with a company that builds a > large number > >> of medium-sized PV ground mount system (30 kW to over 100 kW). They > claim > >> that they have been seeing something on the order of 0.7% annual > degradation > >> in the output of their systems due to intrinsic degradation in the PV > >> modules. They also claim that this number is supported by the PV module > >> manufacturer. Many years ago (2007?) I remember reading a report > containing > >> data gathered by NREL that showed the number was about 0.4%, and I > thought > >> the number was actually decreasing over time. > >> > >> The module in question is the Trina TSM-310 (PA14.8, I believe, if > it makes > >> any difference). > >> > >> Has anyone read anything recent about annual degradation in general > or Trina > >> modules in particular? > >> > >> - Peter > >> > >> Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. > >> President, SolarGnosis > >> 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 > >> South Pasadena, CA 91030 > >> NABCEP Certified PV Installer #031806-26 > >> (323) 839-6108 > >> petertor at pobox.com > >> > >> > > ____________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From boB at midnitesolar.com Sat Jul 18 14:17:22 2015 From: boB at midnitesolar.com (boB at midnitesolar.com) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2015 11:17:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trina Module Annual Degradation In-Reply-To: <55AA9670.9000002@midnitesolar.com> References: <55AA9670.9000002@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: <55AA9832.7040202@midnitesolar.com> Darn ! I must have been talking about myself !!! I said "short term memory" when I mean "short term warranty" boB On 7/18/2015 11:09 AM, boB at midnitesolar.com wrote: > > Hi Bill > > From what I understand, and I have asked this question to different > people at different companies, the 25 year warranty people hear about > concerning PV is not for a broken panel within 25 years but the > degradation in performance over the years. > > If a PV module just plain old "breaks" (goes to zero output) in, say > 20 years and it has a 25 year degradation warranty, the PV manufacturer, > (if still in business), is not obligated to replace the defective > module.... > ...Even if it resulted from a factory defect. > > I do not know what the warranty period is for manufacturing defects. > I hear warranty times of around 10 years. I am not exactly sure on that > though. > > Having said all this, there are companies that do replace modules after > their short term memory is up due to manufacturing defects. > Kyocera comes to mind immediately. These are typically larger > companies from what I see. > > I'm just repeating what I have heard over the years regarding PV. > > It just seems to me somewhat misleading the words "25 year warranty". > There may be some companies that actually DO offer a full 25 yr. warranty > these days but what if they aren't around before then ? > > I bet that Bill Hoffer could offer way better information than I can > about this. > > boB > > > On 7/18/2015 3:29 AM, solar1online at charter.net wrote: >> boB, >> Can you expand on the warranty coverage in this situation? >> TIA, >> Bill >> >> ----------------------------------------- >> >> From: "boB at midnitesolar.com" >> To: "RE-wrenches" >> Cc: >> Sent: Thu, 16 Jul 2015 19:01:32 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trina Module Annual Degradation >> >> >> >> It's too bad that when a module goes to a REAL high degradation, like, >> 100% down to nothing >> before that 25 year "warranty" is up, that it is NOT considered >> degradation and is not covered >> under "warranty". >> >> P.S. This has nothing to do with Trina or any PV company in particular. >> >> boB >> >> On 7/16/2015 6:24 PM, jay wrote: >> > HI Peter, >> > >> > I’ll bite. >> > >> > From the folks I know who deal with multi mega watt systems, are >> seeing less than that level of degradation. >> > >> > That said, the standard module 25 yr warranty to 80% is just on .7% >> year if I have my math correct. >> > >> > jay >> > >> > peltz power >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> On Jul 16, 2015, at 9:08 AM, Peter Parrish >> wrote: >> >> >> >> I have recently been in discussion with a company that builds a >> large number >> >> of medium-sized PV ground mount system (30 kW to over 100 kW). >> They claim >> >> that they have been seeing something on the order of 0.7% annual >> degradation >> >> in the output of their systems due to intrinsic degradation in the PV >> >> modules. They also claim that this number is supported by the PV >> module >> >> manufacturer. Many years ago (2007?) I remember reading a report >> containing >> >> data gathered by NREL that showed the number was about 0.4%, and I >> thought >> >> the number was actually decreasing over time. >> >> >> >> The module in question is the Trina TSM-310 (PA14.8, I believe, if >> it makes >> >> any difference). >> >> >> >> Has anyone read anything recent about annual degradation in >> general or Trina >> >> modules in particular? >> >> >> >> - Peter >> >> >> >> Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. >> >> President, SolarGnosis >> >> 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 >> >> South Pasadena, CA 91030 >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installer #031806-26 >> >> (323) 839-6108 >> >> petertor at pobox.com >> >> >> >> >> >> ____________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Sat Jul 18 12:26:00 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2015 10:26:00 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] armored phone wire In-Reply-To: <1309B0C4-B687-49BB-8F04-423C9FB9FCBA@gmail.com> References: <3F01181E-86D6-4172-B97E-E506D94E1107@millersolar.com> <1309B0C4-B687-49BB-8F04-423C9FB9FCBA@gmail.com> Message-ID: <014101d0c176$6f544600$4dfcd200$@com> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CFgQFjAGahUKEwjeo6_ki-XGAhUIoIAKHVtmDgk&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.discount-low-voltage.com%2FCable%2FDirect-Burial-Telephone-Cable%2F7071608&ei=s32qVZ7-HIjAggTbzLlI&usg=AFQjCNErNbEmMBNV4ek17Ytq1I2NR-44Xg&bvm=bv.98197061,d.eXY One of many online. My local electrical supply CED orders it when I need it, ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2015 9:47 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] armored phone wire HI All, I”m wondering if its a sign of the times, but I can’t find armored phone wire anymore. 18-19ga, 2 pair, 700' Any recommendations? thanks jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Sat Jul 18 12:36:30 2015 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (William Dorsett) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2015 11:36:30 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] APT Beaker In-Reply-To: <3F01181E-86D6-4172-B97E-E506D94E1107@millersolar.com> References: <3F01181E-86D6-4172-B97E-E506D94E1107@millersolar.com> Message-ID: <011601d0c177$e72f2540$b58d6fc0$@sbcglobal.net> Those were Eaton/Heinemann Breakers, and distributors can be found at http://www.sourceesb.com/eatonheinemannproducts/distributors-and-vendors/. Wish Ananda Power was still around. Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2015 5:58 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] APT Beaker Friends: I am adding an MPPT charge controller to a functioning APT power center. I need one breaker for the job. The breakers are like those used in the Trace DC250 cabinets but surface mount. Where do I look for one of these, please? Thank you very much. William _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From larry at starlightsolar.com Sat Jul 18 15:42:19 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2015 12:42:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trina Module Annual Degradation In-Reply-To: <55AA9670.9000002@midnitesolar.com> References: <55AA9670.9000002@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: To simplify the 25 year Power Warranty, which is different than the material, defect warranty: if the PV module is still functioning in year 25, it must produce 80% (if that is the number) of rated power. Anything that caused it to stop working is not covered by the power warranty. Just FYI, Kyocera, 13 years after the 1 Year Limited Warranty expired, is STILL replacing the KC120 and 80 Watt modules with a rebuilt unit and they are STILL paying us labor to replace them. What a company! Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jul 18, 2015, at 11:09 AM, boB at midnitesolar.com wrote: Hi Bill From what I understand, and I have asked this question to different people at different companies, the 25 year warranty people hear about concerning PV is not for a broken panel within 25 years but the degradation in performance over the years. If a PV module just plain old "breaks" (goes to zero output) in, say 20 years and it has a 25 year degradation warranty, the PV manufacturer, (if still in business), is not obligated to replace the defective module.... ...Even if it resulted from a factory defect. I do not know what the warranty period is for manufacturing defects. I hear warranty times of around 10 years. I am not exactly sure on that though. Having said all this, there are companies that do replace modules after their short term memory is up due to manufacturing defects. Kyocera comes to mind immediately. These are typically larger companies from what I see. I'm just repeating what I have heard over the years regarding PV. It just seems to me somewhat misleading the words "25 year warranty". There may be some companies that actually DO offer a full 25 yr. warranty these days but what if they aren't around before then ? I bet that Bill Hoffer could offer way better information than I can about this. boB -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Sat Jul 18 17:52:31 2015 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (William Dorsett) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2015 16:52:31 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trina Module Annual Degradation In-Reply-To: <55AA9670.9000002@midnitesolar.com> References: <55AA9670.9000002@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: <014001d0c1a4$0cee1030$26ca3090$@sbcglobal.net> boB, this is the reason that we've gone with Canadian Solar. Their warranty is backed up by the Chub Insurance Group so if CS goes belly up, Chub will honor that. I don't know of another company which does that. Having said that, what constitutes a module defect ???? Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of boB at midnitesolar.com Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2015 1:10 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trina Module Annual Degradation Hi Bill >From what I understand, and I have asked this question to different people at different companies, the 25 year warranty people hear about concerning PV is not for a broken panel within 25 years but the degradation in performance over the years. If a PV module just plain old "breaks" (goes to zero output) in, say 20 years and it has a 25 year degradation warranty, the PV manufacturer, (if still in business), is not obligated to replace the defective module.... ...Even if it resulted from a factory defect. I do not know what the warranty period is for manufacturing defects. I hear warranty times of around 10 years. I am not exactly sure on that though. Having said all this, there are companies that do replace modules after their short term memory is up due to manufacturing defects. Kyocera comes to mind immediately. These are typically larger companies from what I see. I'm just repeating what I have heard over the years regarding PV. It just seems to me somewhat misleading the words "25 year warranty". There may be some companies that actually DO offer a full 25 yr. warranty these days but what if they aren't around before then ? I bet that Bill Hoffer could offer way better information than I can about this. boB On 7/18/2015 3:29 AM, solar1online at charter.net wrote: boB, Can you expand on the warranty coverage in this situation? TIA, Bill ----------------------------------------- From: "boB at midnitesolar.com" To: "RE-wrenches" Cc: Sent: Thu, 16 Jul 2015 19:01:32 -0700 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trina Module Annual Degradation It's too bad that when a module goes to a REAL high degradation, like, 100% down to nothing before that 25 year "warranty" is up, that it is NOT considered degradation and is not covered under "warranty". P.S. This has nothing to do with Trina or any PV company in particular. boB On 7/16/2015 6:24 PM, jay wrote: > HI Peter, > > I'll bite. > > From the folks I know who deal with multi mega watt systems, are seeing less than that level of degradation. > > That said, the standard module 25 yr warranty to 80% is just on .7% year if I have my math correct. > > jay > > peltz power > > > > >> On Jul 16, 2015, at 9:08 AM, Peter Parrish wrote: >> >> I have recently been in discussion with a company that builds a large number >> of medium-sized PV ground mount system (30 kW to over 100 kW). They claim >> that they have been seeing something on the order of 0.7% annual degradation >> in the output of their systems due to intrinsic degradation in the PV >> modules. They also claim that this number is supported by the PV module >> manufacturer. Many years ago (2007?) I remember reading a report containing >> data gathered by NREL that showed the number was about 0.4%, and I thought >> the number was actually decreasing over time. >> >> The module in question is the Trina TSM-310 (PA14.8, I believe, if it makes >> any difference). >> >> Has anyone read anything recent about annual degradation in general or Trina >> modules in particular? >> >> - Peter >> >> Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. >> President, SolarGnosis >> 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 >> South Pasadena, CA 91030 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installer #031806-26 >> (323) 839-6108 >> petertor at pobox.com >> >> ____________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Sat Jul 18 21:46:00 2015 From: Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com (Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2015 21:46:00 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trina Module Annual Degradation In-Reply-To: <55AA9670.9000002@midnitesolar.com> References: <55AA9670.9000002@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: Hi: This thread reminded me of an article I saw about 2 years ago, where the researcher had compiled a graph of solar module start-ups per year up until 2012, with the limiting constraint that the companies had to UL 1703 listed and qualify for the California Solar Initiative. Virtually all the companies started their business less than 10 years ago during the first boom in the second half of the 2000's. Only three have actually been through a 25 year warranty period. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: "boB at midnitesolar.com" To: RE-wrenches , Date: 07/18/2015 11:09 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trina Module Annual Degradation Sent by: "RE-wrenches" Hi Bill From what I understand, and I have asked this question to different people at different companies, the 25 year warranty people hear about concerning PV is not for a broken panel within 25 years but the degradation in performance over the years. If a PV module just plain old "breaks" (goes to zero output) in, say 20 years and it has a 25 year degradation warranty, the PV manufacturer, (if still in business), is not obligated to replace the defective module.... ...Even if it resulted from a factory defect. I do not know what the warranty period is for manufacturing defects. I hear warranty times of around 10 years. I am not exactly sure on that though. Having said all this, there are companies that do replace modules after their short term memory is up due to manufacturing defects. Kyocera comes to mind immediately. These are typically larger companies from what I see. I'm just repeating what I have heard over the years regarding PV. It just seems to me somewhat misleading the words "25 year warranty". There may be some companies that actually DO offer a full 25 yr. warranty these days but what if they aren't around before then ? I bet that Bill Hoffer could offer way better information than I can about this. boB On 7/18/2015 3:29 AM, solar1online at charter.net wrote: boB, Can you expand on the warranty coverage in this situation? TIA, Bill ----------------------------------------- From: "boB at midnitesolar.com" To: "RE-wrenches" Cc: Sent: Thu, 16 Jul 2015 19:01:32 -0700 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trina Module Annual Degradation It's too bad that when a module goes to a REAL high degradation, like, 100% down to nothing before that 25 year "warranty" is up, that it is NOT considered degradation and is not covered under "warranty". P.S. This has nothing to do with Trina or any PV company in particular. boB On 7/16/2015 6:24 PM, jay wrote: > HI Peter, > > I’ll bite. > > From the folks I know who deal with multi mega watt systems, are seeing less than that level of degradation. > > That said, the standard module 25 yr warranty to 80% is just on .7% year if I have my math correct. > > jay > > peltz power > > > > >> On Jul 16, 2015, at 9:08 AM, Peter Parrish wrote: >> >> I have recently been in discussion with a company that builds a large number >> of medium-sized PV ground mount system (30 kW to over 100 kW). They claim >> that they have been seeing something on the order of 0.7% annual degradation >> in the output of their systems due to intrinsic degradation in the PV >> modules. They also claim that this number is supported by the PV module >> manufacturer. Many years ago (2007?) I remember reading a report containing >> data gathered by NREL that showed the number was about 0.4%, and I thought >> the number was actually decreasing over time. >> >> The module in question is the Trina TSM-310 (PA14.8, I believe, if it makes >> any difference). >> >> Has anyone read anything recent about annual degradation in general or Trina >> modules in particular? >> >> - Peter >> >> Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. >> President, SolarGnosis >> 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 >> South Pasadena, CA 91030 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installer #031806-26 >> (323) 839-6108 >> petertor at pobox.com >> >> ____________ ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat Jul 18 23:27:29 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2015 21:27:29 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] APT Beaker In-Reply-To: <011601d0c177$e72f2540$b58d6fc0$@sbcglobal.net> References: <3F01181E-86D6-4172-B97E-E506D94E1107@millersolar.com> <011601d0c177$e72f2540$b58d6fc0$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <55AB1921.1000801@solarray.com> I thought the APT panels had Square D QOU breakers? Also Midnite makes an adapter plate that lets you use a newer panel mount DC breaker in the place of the old medium Heini breakers. Might not help there. I added an MPPT controller to an APT center a couple years ago, and I just added a small secondary breaker box, because I didn't have right size QOU. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 7/18/2015 10:36 AM, William Dorsett wrote: > Those were Eaton/Heinemann Breakers, and distributors can be found at > http://www.sourceesb.com/eatonheinemannproducts/distributors-and-vendors/. > Wish Ananda Power was still around. > > Bill Dorsett > Manhattan, KS > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of William Miller > Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2015 5:58 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] APT Beaker > > Friends: > > I am adding an MPPT charge controller to a functioning APT power center. I > need one breaker for the job. The breakers are like those used in the Trace > DC250 cabinets but surface mount. Where do I look for one of these, please? > > Thank you very much. > > William > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From allan at sindelarsolar.com Sat Jul 18 23:51:56 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2015 20:51:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] APT Beaker In-Reply-To: <55AB1921.1000801@solarray.com> References: <3F01181E-86D6-4172-B97E-E506D94E1107@millersolar.com> <011601d0c177$e72f2540$b58d6fc0$@sbcglobal.net> <55AB1921.1000801@solarray.com> Message-ID: <55AB1EDC.5020402@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sun Jul 19 01:27:14 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2015 23:27:14 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] APT Beaker In-Reply-To: <55AB1EDC.5020402@sindelarsolar.com> References: <3F01181E-86D6-4172-B97E-E506D94E1107@millersolar.com> <011601d0c177$e72f2540$b58d6fc0$@sbcglobal.net> <55AB1921.1000801@solarray.com> <55AB1EDC.5020402@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <55AB3532.709@solarray.com> I've seen both on the DC side. The QOU also had a high VDC rating (125 v as I recall). R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 7/18/2015 9:51 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > Ray, > The AC breakers were SqD QOU; the DC were Heineman/Carling/Airpax CF > series. > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > ** > > On 7/18/2015 8:27 PM, Ray Walters wrote: >> I thought the APT panels had Square D QOU breakers? Also Midnite >> makes an adapter plate that lets you use a newer panel mount DC >> breaker in the place of the old medium Heini breakers. Might not help >> there. >> I added an MPPT controller to an APT center a couple years ago, and I >> just added a small secondary breaker box, because I didn't have right >> size QOU. >> >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 7/18/2015 10:36 AM, William Dorsett wrote: >>> Those were Eaton/Heinemann Breakers, and distributors can be found at >>> http://www.sourceesb.com/eatonheinemannproducts/distributors-and-vendors/. >>> >>> Wish Ananda Power was still around. >>> >>> Bill Dorsett >>> Manhattan, KS >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On >>> Behalf Of William Miller >>> Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2015 5:58 AM >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] APT Beaker >>> >>> Friends: >>> >>> I am adding an MPPT charge controller to a functioning APT power >>> center. I >>> need one breaker for the job. The breakers are like those used in >>> the Trace >>> DC250 cabinets but surface mount. Where do I look for one of these, >>> please? >>> >>> Thank you very much. >>> >>> William >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sun Jul 19 03:09:12 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2015 09:09:12 +0200 Subject: [RE-wrenches] QOU Message-ID: Ray: QOU breakers are manufacturer rated for 125 VDC, UL rated for 45 VDC. Wm From marco at pvthawaii.com Sun Jul 19 12:03:51 2015 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2015 06:03:51 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Tripower Message-ID: <008001d0c23c$81de4c00$859ae400$@com> Hey Steve Jefferson, Re: the SMA TPs.can you please explain what the difference is between the "rated MPPT voltage range" versus the "MPPT operating voltage range"? As far as performance, how important is it that the array voltage be 300V as opposed to as low as 150V? Thanks, marco -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 117002 bytes Desc: not available URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Sun Jul 19 13:34:40 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2015 10:34:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] APT Beaker In-Reply-To: <55AB3532.709@solarray.com> References: <3F01181E-86D6-4172-B97E-E506D94E1107@millersolar.com> <011601d0c177$e72f2540$b58d6fc0$@sbcglobal.net> <55AB1921.1000801@solarray.com> <55AB1EDC.5020402@sindelarsolar.com> <55AB3532.709@solarray.com> Message-ID: <55ABDFB0.3070406@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sun Jul 19 20:22:01 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2015 18:22:01 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] APT Beaker In-Reply-To: <55ABDFB0.3070406@sindelarsolar.com> References: <3F01181E-86D6-4172-B97E-E506D94E1107@millersolar.com> <011601d0c177$e72f2540$b58d6fc0$@sbcglobal.net> <55AB1921.1000801@solarray.com> <55AB1EDC.5020402@sindelarsolar.com> <55AB3532.709@solarray.com> <55ABDFB0.3070406@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <55AC3F29.3020507@solarray.com> Possibly added after market, but I've seen quite a few APTs with QOUs used on the DC side. I don't recall the exact mounting configuration. In the days of DC loads, I would see the Heine's on the charge controller in, and then the QOUs used as PV inputs and DC load circuits. I never sold the APTs; we built our own DC load centers until Outback and Midnite came along with saner pricing and better charge controllers. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 7/19/2015 11:34 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > Ray, > If you have, it wasn't correct. The CFs are 1" wide, the QOUs are > 3/4", and the mounting holes are 1" apart. Are you sure? > The CFs have a 125 VDC rating. > Allan > > > ** > > On 7/18/2015 10:27 PM, Ray Walters wrote: >> I've seen both on the DC side. The QOU also had a high VDC rating >> (125 v as I recall). >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> On 7/18/2015 9:51 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: >>> Ray, >>> The AC breakers were SqD QOU; the DC were Heineman/Carling/Airpax CF >>> series. >>> >>> *Allan Sindelar* >>> allan at sindelarsolar.com >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional >>> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >>> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >>> *505 780-2738 cell* >>> >>> ** >>> >>> On 7/18/2015 8:27 PM, Ray Walters wrote: >>>> I thought the APT panels had Square D QOU breakers? Also Midnite >>>> makes an adapter plate that lets you use a newer panel mount DC >>>> breaker in the place of the old medium Heini breakers. Might not >>>> help there. >>>> I added an MPPT controller to an APT center a couple years ago, and >>>> I just added a small secondary breaker box, because I didn't have >>>> right size QOU. >>>> >>>> R.Ray Walters >>>> CTO, Solarray, Inc >>>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >>>> Licensed Master Electrician >>>> Solar Design Engineer >>>> 303 505-8760 >>>> >>>> On 7/18/2015 10:36 AM, William Dorsett wrote: >>>>> Those were Eaton/Heinemann Breakers, and distributors can be found at >>>>> http://www.sourceesb.com/eatonheinemannproducts/distributors-and-vendors/. >>>>> >>>>> Wish Ananda Power was still around. >>>>> >>>>> Bill Dorsett >>>>> Manhattan, KS >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: RE-wrenches >>>>> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On >>>>> Behalf Of William Miller >>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2015 5:58 AM >>>>> To: RE-wrenches >>>>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] APT Beaker >>>>> >>>>> Friends: >>>>> >>>>> I am adding an MPPT charge controller to a functioning APT power >>>>> center. I >>>>> need one breaker for the job. The breakers are like those used in >>>>> the Trace >>>>> DC250 cabinets but surface mount. Where do I look for one of >>>>> these, please? >>>>> >>>>> Thank you very much. >>>>> >>>>> William >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Jul 19 22:19:21 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2015 19:19:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] APT Beaker In-Reply-To: <55AC3F29.3020507@solarray.com> References: <3F01181E-86D6-4172-B97E-E506D94E1107@millersolar.com> <011601d0c177$e72f2540$b58d6fc0$@sbcglobal.net> <55AB1921.1000801@solarray.com> <55AB1EDC.5020402@sindelarsolar.com> <55AB3532.709@solarray.com> <55ABDFB0.3070406@sindelarsolar.com> <55AC3F29.3020507@solarray.com> Message-ID: <872DAD5D-E63C-4D10-9669-BF78632373EB@gmail.com> Hi all I believe in the early days of Anada power technologies they were all QOU with pull out fuse blocks ( class T). Back then it was 12 or 24v. 48v was really rare. And there were really big code fights over the QOU listing. Was it 48v actual or nominal? To John Wiles it was actual, most everyone else nominal. Those " fights" seem comically simple compared to today. REV 2? 3?, ( maybe when it became APT) they upgraded to the 125vdc breakers for,the DC side and kept the QOU for,the AC side. I've still got one ( and still in use in my house system) and its set up for the airpax for DC, QOU on the AC side. Oh and it's got 2 x 250 amp main breakers instead of the class T Jay Peltz power > On Jul 19, 2015, at 5:22 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > > Possibly added after market, but I've seen quite a few APTs with QOUs used on the DC side. I don't recall the exact mounting configuration. > In the days of DC loads, I would see the Heine's on the charge controller in, and then the QOUs used as PV inputs and DC load circuits. > I never sold the APTs; we built our own DC load centers until Outback and Midnite came along with saner pricing and better charge controllers. > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 >> On 7/19/2015 11:34 AM, Allan Si > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Thu Jul 16 19:57:29 2015 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2015 19:57:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Additional shake up at SMA Message-ID: <4AE427B2-B5E4-4000-BEAA-54F3650A6AF5@swnl.net> "just confirmed via text that the CEO of the US op was fired too." Who knows where all will end..... This was sent to me by a good friend in the industry > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Mon Jul 20 09:46:08 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2015 06:46:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] APT DC breakers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55ACFBA0.4060802@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 18959 bytes Desc: not available URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Mon Jul 20 12:18:40 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2015 09:18:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] APT Beaker In-Reply-To: <55AC3F29.3020507@solarray.com> References: <3F01181E-86D6-4172-B97E-E506D94E1107@millersolar.com> <011601d0c177$e72f2540$b58d6fc0$@sbcglobal.net> <55AB1921.1000801@solarray.com> <55AB1EDC.5020402@sindelarsolar.com> <55AB3532.709@solarray.com> <55ABDFB0.3070406@sindelarsolar.com> <55AC3F29.3020507@solarray.com> Message-ID: <55AD1F60.5010807@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Steve.Jefferson at sma-america.com Mon Jul 20 12:36:15 2015 From: Steve.Jefferson at sma-america.com (Steve Jefferson) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2015 16:36:15 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Tripower In-Reply-To: <008001d0c23c$81de4c00$859ae400$@com> References: <008001d0c23c$81de4c00$859ae400$@com> Message-ID: <41FE255D65D554478C3B17F3EB5410EF913A60F9@SVR-US-EXMBX-01.sma.de> Marco, The main difference between Rated and Range is that to achieve maximum efficiency claimed (97.5% CEC on a 12kW unit), you would want to design your array voltages to fit in the rated window (300-800Vdc). The MPPT will operate throughout the entire voltage window of the inverter, this is the Range. Thanks SMA America, LLC Steve Jefferson Service Line Supervisor 3925 Atherton Ave Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714 U.S.A. Tel: +1 916 625 3185 (direct) Fax: +1 916 625 0871 Mobile: +1 916 622 4253 Email: Steve.jefferson at SMA-America.com www.SMA-America.com [cid:image001.png at 01CF1CFA.FE18BEB0] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Marco Mangelsdorf Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2015 9:04 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Tripower Hey Steve Jefferson, Re: the SMA TPs...can you please explain what the difference is between the "rated MPPT voltage range" versus the "MPPT operating voltage range"? As far as performance, how important is it that the array voltage be 300V as opposed to as low as 150V? Thanks, marco [cid:image003.png at 01D0C2CF.84A44000] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 30736 bytes Desc: image002.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 117002 bytes Desc: image003.png URL: From kirk at vtsolar.com Mon Jul 20 17:13:25 2015 From: kirk at vtsolar.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2015 17:13:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] meggering module-level electronics Message-ID: <000801d0c330$eb0ae270$c120a750$@vtsolar.com> I recently had to megger (IRT) a Solaredge array to debug an inverter failure. I didn't think it possible, but a SE tech told me how to do it without frying the optimizers. I had to float, then short both pos/neg string leads and then megger this connection to ground. I'm not sure if it meggered all the way through to the panels or just through the optimizer series output. I assume the module input is isolated under this condition. Anyone have experience IRT'ing Solaredge or other (Enphase, Tigo, etc.) mod-level electronics? Thanks. Kirk Herander VT Solar, LLC Proven PV provider since 1991 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Mon Jul 20 17:33:29 2015 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2015 14:33:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for a replacement Sanyo HIP-200BA3 panel Message-ID: <916432.16860.bm@smtp111.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com Mon Jul 20 19:02:23 2015 From: nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com (Nick Soleil) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2015 16:02:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] meggering module-level electronics In-Reply-To: <000801d0c330$eb0ae270$c120a750$@vtsolar.com> References: <000801d0c330$eb0ae270$c120a750$@vtsolar.com> Message-ID: Hi Kirk, There is little to no need to megger test Enphase cabling, and we would not recommend it as part of the normal installation process. Since the microinverters are connected to the cabling in parallel, a microinverter or module failure will not impact the other microinverters/modules on the branch circuit, so it is pretty easy to find where a problem has occurred. If a fault occurs on the DC wiring of the microinverter/module pair, then only that one microinverter will be affected. If you want to perform an insulation resistance test on an Enphase array, you must ensure that the microinverters are unplugged from the Engage cabling. The surge suppression hardware within the Enphase microinverters will provide a false positive reading if you try to megger test the cabling with the microinverters attached to the cabling. On Mon, Jul 20, 2015 at 2:13 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: > I recently had to megger (IRT) a Solaredge array to debug an inverter > failure. I didn’t think it possible, but a SE tech told me how to do it > without frying the optimizers. I had to float, then short both pos/neg > string leads and then megger this connection to ground. I’m not sure if it > meggered all the way through to the panels or just through the optimizer > series output. I assume the module input is isolated under this condition. > Anyone have experience IRT’ing Solaredge or other (Enphase, Tigo, etc.) > mod-level electronics? Thanks. > > > > *Kirk Herander* > > *VT Solar, LLC * > > *Proven PV provider since 1991* > > *www.vermontsolarnow.com * > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > 802.863.1202 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Cordially, Nick Soleil *Enphase Energy* | Field Applications Engineer office 707-763-4784 <%28707%29%20763.%204784> x7267 cell 07-321-2937 *Powering What’s Next*™* | *The Enphase Energy Management System NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 Texas Master Electrician #284451 “Don’t get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It’s just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there’s an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it’s wireless!” - William McDonough -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amfrish at aeonsolar.com Tue Jul 21 08:36:33 2015 From: amfrish at aeonsolar.com (Allen Frishman) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2015 08:36:33 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Megger Test level for grid feeders Message-ID: <8348B94D-0D79-40D0-A0D3-A20A131118BC@aeonsolar.com> Hi Wrenchers, I have a client that has an aging electric grid with in their group of 32 buildings. The Electric service for this complex all comes into one building which has switch gear that feeds all of the buildings in the complex. The feeders were megger tested with varying results. Some were in such poor condition that the megger test could not be completed. The client has agreed to replace the feeders over time and I am trying to specify a minimum requirement for the quality of the feeders in order for the Solar Inverters to perform as expected. I am looking for a spec that defines a minimum megger reading for feeders or some other way of defining the required quality. I appreciate any and all thoughts on this. Al Frishman AeonSolar (917) 699-6641 - cell (888) 460-2867 www.aeonsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Jul 21 09:46:26 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2015 09:46:26 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Multiple Outback Radians with AC Coupling Message-ID: Does Outback (or anyone else) have a wiring diagram for multiple Radians in AC coupled configuration? Specifically, I would like to see quad-GS8048 Radians coupled with 24kW of PV. Jason Szumlanski -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jul 21 12:55:36 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2015 09:55:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Tripower In-Reply-To: <41FE255D65D554478C3B17F3EB5410EF913A60F9@SVR-US-EXMBX-01.sma.de> References: <008001d0c23c$81de4c00$859ae400$@com> <41FE255D65D554478C3B17F3EB5410EF913A60F9@SVR-US-EXMBX-01.sma.de> Message-ID: <62E86973-3306-47AF-9EEC-92B184D74146@gmail.com> Hi steve Are you saying the 97.5 % is flat from 300-800v? Thanks Jay. Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 20, 2015, at 9:36 AM, Steve Jefferson wrote: > > Marco, > > The main difference between Rated and Range is that to achieve maximum efficiency claimed (97.5% CEC on a 12kW unit), you would want to design your array voltages to fit in the rated window (300-800Vdc). > > The MPPT will operate throughout the entire voltage window of the inverter, this is the Range. > > Thanks > > SMA America, LLC > Steve Jefferson > Service Line Supervisor > 3925 Atherton Ave > Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714 > U.S.A. > Tel: +1 916 625 3185 (direct) > Fax: +1 916 625 0871 > Mobile: +1 916 622 4253 > Email: Steve.jefferson at SMA-America.com > www.SMA-America.com > > > > This email -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 30736 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Jul 22 13:37:44 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2015 07:37:44 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC conductor line loss numbers Message-ID: Wrenches Some time back there was discussion on the conductor size and efficiency rating requirement for long DC runs. What I am looking at is this, 400 feet of MCM 400 to keep the line loss at or below 1% per NEC code for an off grid application, cost vs return is not acceptable. 2/0 is less than 2.5% and the cost is far less. Specs are 4 strings of 3, 250 watt modules feeding one Outback FM 80 charge controller. There are lots of things I can do like SMA instread, or 200 VDC charge controller but nothing can be changed except the wire gauge. Does anyone recall a thread with this topic. thoughts ?? Jerry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From windsine at gmail.com Wed Jul 22 15:07:55 2015 From: windsine at gmail.com (Roy Rakobitsch) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2015 14:07:55 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC conductor line loss numbers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Maybe 600vdc charge controller? Roy Rakobitsch NABCEP Certified Small Wind Installer® NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® Certified Advanced Tower Climbing, Safety & Rescue Wind/PV Design Engineer Windsine LLC 631-514-4166 www.windsine.org On Jul 22, 2015 1:52 PM, "Jerry Shafer" wrote: > Wrenches > Some time back there was discussion on the conductor size and efficiency > rating requirement for long DC runs. > What I am looking at is this, 400 feet of MCM 400 to keep the line loss at > or below 1% per NEC code for an off grid application, cost vs return is not > acceptable. 2/0 is less than 2.5% and the cost is far less. Specs are 4 > strings of 3, 250 watt modules feeding one Outback FM 80 charge controller. > There are lots of things I can do like SMA instread, or 200 VDC charge > controller but nothing can be changed except the wire gauge. Does anyone > recall a thread with this topic. > > thoughts ?? > Jerry > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atruitt at gmail.com Wed Jul 22 15:17:10 2015 From: atruitt at gmail.com (Andrew Truitt) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2015 13:17:10 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conduit across walkways Message-ID: Wrenches - What is your take on conduit across walkways on commercial rooftops? [image: Inline image 1] The 2012 IFC says "The DC combiner boxes shall be located such that conduit runs are minimized in the pathways between arrays." so that would indicate that this is acceptable. Is there anything in the NEC or OSHA that requires some type of step or protection for conduits in access walkways? I am concerned with a scenario where the conduit is covered with snow and becomes an even bigger trip hazard and potential source of damage to the DC conductors. For a brighter energy future, Andrew Truitt Principal Truitt Renewable Energy Consulting, LLC (202) 486-7507 LinkedIn Profile Company Website NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 <%28202%29%20486-7507> [image: 24 copy.jpg] "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" ~William McDonough -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 51019 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 35142 bytes Desc: not available URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Wed Jul 22 16:00:29 2015 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2015 14:00:29 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rodent/Pigeon/Critter Guards Message-ID: Wrenches, I've looked and found a few older threads on the topic but thought it is a good time to refresh our collective info on this as we are getting more requests to install these (and it is also going to be required by code on some systems when our province adopts the 2015 Canadian Electrical Code. We currently use the 2012 code) The issue that we are directly addressing is mostly pigeons hanging out/nesting under rooftop arrays, for now. I haven't heard of any specific rodent issues in our region. I have installed the SnapNRack Edge Screen. This was on a concrete tile roof so the problem i saw with that was the screen did not contour the tile, leaving a small gap where one tile overlaps the one below it, roughly 25mm (1"). This would not be an issue with keeping out pigeons, but i could imagine that a persistent rodent could squeeze its way thru the small gap. This would not be an issue on the more common asphalt shingle roofs and i would say it is a solid product. The products i'm aware of are: SnapNRack Kinetic Heyco spiffysolar solatrim.com Kinetic, Heyco, and Spiffy each seem to be basically the same; wire mesh and a j-hook that attaches to the module frame. SnapNRack is wire mesh but attaches with a more more robust clip that also provides more vertical support to the mesh. (It was suggested that rodents may be able to push under the mesh when its only supported at the top with j-hooks) I've seen the wire mesh installed so that it comes down only as far as the roof, so the height of the mesh is essentially the height from the top of the mod frame to the roof surface, but i have also seen it where the mesh is taller than this and the excess (rather than being trimmed to size) comes down and lays out on the roof in an outward direction. It was suggested that this may be more of a deterrent to rodents that would otherwise push their way under the mesh if it only comes down to meet the roof. Comments/Suggestions? The last product mentioned, solatrim, is completely different from the rest. It looks much more solid that the rest and uses a peel-and-stick approach using a 3M adhesive tape. My first and only initial apprehension with this one is the adhesive. While 3M makes darn good adhesives, it leaves to question how it will hold up against our seasonal ambient temperature swings of above +30degC to below -40degC. Their spec sheet states it is good btwn -34.4degC to 149degC. So for me to even try it would not be within the mfgr's specs :( What products have you used? What did you like/dislike about them? Cheers, *Benn Kilburn * CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc 6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7 P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com [image: email] [image: facebook] [image: twitter] [image: linkedin] [image: google] [image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed Jul 22 16:20:21 2015 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2015 16:20:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conduit across walkways In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20150722202031.7759410803@che.dreamhost.com> We would paint them a bright contrasting color (not blue, red or yellow) and place ballast blocks on either side as protection. Sincerely, Glenn Burt Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. -----Original Message----- From: "Andrew Truitt" Sent: ‎7/‎22/‎2015 15:17 To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conduit across walkways Wrenches - What is your take on conduit across walkways on commercial rooftops? [image: Inline image 1] The 2012 IFC says "The DC combiner boxes shall be located such that conduit runs are minimized in the pathways between arrays." so that would indicate that this is acceptable. Is there anything in the NEC or OSHA that requires some type of step or protection for conduits in access walkways? I am concerned with a scenario where the conduit is covered with snow and becomes an even bigger trip hazard and potential source of damage to the DC conductors. For a brighter energy future, Andrew Truitt Principal Truitt Renewable Energy Consulting, LLC (202) 486-7507 LinkedIn Profile Company Website NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 <%28202%29%20486-7507> [image: 24 copy.jpg] "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" ~William McDonough -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 51019 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 35142 bytes Desc: not available URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Wed Jul 22 17:28:54 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2015 14:28:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC conductor line loss numbers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jerry, A long distance wire run is practical now days using a high voltage controller. Have a look at Schneider and Morningstar 600Vdc controllers. Not sure what you mean "by nothing can be changed but wire size” but you will have to rewire the strings into series and protect the wire run. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jul 22, 2015, at 10:37 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Wrenches Some time back there was discussion on the conductor size and efficiency rating requirement for long DC runs. What I am looking at is this, 400 feet of MCM 400 to keep the line loss at or below 1% per NEC code for an off grid application, cost vs return is not acceptable. 2/0 is less than 2.5% and the cost is far less. Specs are 4 strings of 3, 250 watt modules feeding one Outback FM 80 charge controller. There are lots of things I can do like SMA instread, or 200 VDC charge controller but nothing can be changed except the wire gauge. Does anyone recall a thread with this topic. thoughts ?? Jerry ________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed Jul 22 19:26:43 2015 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2015 16:26:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conduit across walkways In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6662b9b55ecd797a36482ec5bb82b80f@mail.gmail.com> Andrew, I’m by no means an expert in this area, but it has come up over and over again for our commercial and residential installations. There is no question that a) avoiding conduit in walkways is nearly impossible and b) it is a trip hazard. I’m not aware of any particular OSHA requirements, this link has the closest info I could find: https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS&p_id=9714 Typically a rooftop is not considered a readily accessible area so I don’t think the OSHA stuff really applies. Once again, I haven’t deeply researched it so I may be wrong. If, for example, you have EMT on the roof then NEC article 358 would apply. 358.12(1) Uses Not Permitted – Where, during installation or afterward, it will be subject to sever physical damage. I think it is hard to make a case for severe physical damage on a roof. The 2013 California Fire Code section 605.11.2 specifies locations of DC conductors. I can’t copy the paste the language because the pdf I have a copy protected, but in a nutshell they want conduit run as close as possible to a ridge or hip or valley (doesn’t apply to flat commercial roofs) and then run as directly as possible to outside walls. Common sense dictates that the conduit should be marked with a bright paint or tape of some sort when they cross walkway areas. Anyone who’s spent time on the roof has probably tripped on conduit and or ground wire while working on the array. It would be even better to put some ramps to avoid the trip hazard altogether but that gets expensive really fast. -August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Andrew Truitt *Sent:* Wednesday, July 22, 2015 12:17 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Conduit across walkways Wrenches - What is your take on conduit across walkways on commercial rooftops? [image: Inline image 1] The 2012 IFC says "The DC combiner boxes shall be located such that conduit runs are minimized in the pathways between arrays." so that would indicate that this is acceptable. Is there anything in the NEC or OSHA that requires some type of step or protection for conduits in access walkways? I am concerned with a scenario where the conduit is covered with snow and becomes an even bigger trip hazard and potential source of damage to the DC conductors. For a brighter energy future, Andrew Truitt Principal Truitt Renewable Energy Consulting, LLC (202) 486-7507 LinkedIn Profile Company Website NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 [image: 24 copy.jpg] "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" ~William McDonough -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 51019 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5239 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Wed Jul 22 19:09:45 2015 From: Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com (Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2015 19:09:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC conductor line loss numbers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi: Copper conduction losses are proportional to (current) x (current) x (resistance). For the same wire gauge, double the current means that the losses increase by 4X. Going from 150 VDC to 300 VDC will therefore allow you use 4X thinner wire and going up to 600 VDC will allow you to use 16X thinner wire. It's very non-linear. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Jerry Shafer To: RE-wrenches , Date: 07/22/2015 11:52 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC conductor line loss numbers Sent by: "RE-wrenches" Wrenches Some time back there was discussion on the conductor size and efficiency rating requirement for long DC runs. What I am looking at is this, 400 feet of MCM 400 to keep the line loss at or below 1% per NEC code for an off grid application, cost vs return is not acceptable. 2/0 is less than 2.5% and the cost is far less. Specs are 4 strings of 3, 250 watt modules feeding one Outback FM 80 charge controller. There are lots of things I can do like SMA instread, or 200 VDC charge controller but nothing can be changed except the wire gauge. Does anyone recall a thread with this topic. thoughts ?? Jerry ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Wed Jul 22 19:39:21 2015 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2015 17:39:21 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conduit across walkways In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <39C69B7C-15BE-4E70-852A-D55B2E6E2747@skyfireenergy.com> If it is in a walking traffic area of concern, build a short step or steps over the conduit. Use unistrut and have it sitting (ballasted perhaps so it won't move) on dura blocks. Google "Cooper B-line" They have a line of strut products for just about everything and you can probably get some good ideas from them. Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 > On Jul 22, 2015, at 1:17 PM, Andrew Truitt wrote: > > > Wrenches - What is your take on conduit across walkways on commercial rooftops? > > > > > > The 2012 IFC says "The DC combiner boxes shall be located such that conduit runs are minimized in the pathways between arrays." so that would indicate that this is acceptable. Is there anything in the NEC or OSHA that requires some type of step or protection for conduits in access walkways? I am concerned with a scenario where the conduit is covered with snow and becomes an even bigger trip hazard and potential source of damage to the DC conductors. > > > > For a brighter energy future, > > > Andrew Truitt > > Principal > Truitt Renewable Energy Consulting, LLC > > (202) 486-7507 > > LinkedIn Profile > > Company Website > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 > > Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 > > > > "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" > > ~William McDonough > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com Wed Jul 22 21:29:00 2015 From: bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com (Brian Teitelbaum) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2015 18:29:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC conductor line loss numbers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <69bbe55cc6a5b5b50115e9d7dafa31fa@mail.gmail.com> Jerry, 2.5% loss is fine, especially considering the cost of reducing that further. Remember that you are calculating the line loss at the peak power output of the array, at noon on a sunny day. Since the array will only provide peak output for a rather small part of the day (unless you have a tracking mount), your losses will be much less most of the time. At 50% of peak sunlight, you will only have 50% of the voltage drop. Efficiency on a less than fully sunny day will be very high, as will mornings and afternoons on a sunny day. Voltage drop losses in PV source circuits are not nearly the problem that t used to be when PV was very expensive and before we had MPPT charge controllers. Back in the day when we had 36-cell modules, or even 33 or 35-cell modules, charging 12V batteries, and we only had relay or PWM controllers, it was very important to reduce voltage drop as much as we could. First, PV power was very expensive, so it was cost effective to spend more money on wire. Secondly, because the array voltage was only slightly higher than the battery voltage, too much voltage drop in the wiring could drop the charging voltage below the voltage that the battery needed to get fully charged, especially on hot days. Now, with PV “cheap” and MPPT controllers allowing array voltages way above the battery voltage, these are not big problems anymore. Certainly, any lost power is indeed lost power, but it doesn’t affect the actual functioning of the system. I think that if you were to calculate the “cost” of the lost power due to using a smaller gauge wire, it would be below the cost of the larger wire. On a 3 kW array (60A at 50 VDC) a 1.5% loss (the difference between 2.5% and 1% losses) is only 45W. That’s only about $40 worth of PV, and less than a quarter of a kWh/day average in a 5 peak sun-hour location. Your PV sizing for an off-grid system shouldn’t be so tight that this would make any real difference I n system performance. Brian Teitelbaum AEE Solar *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jerry Shafer *Sent:* Wednesday, July 22, 2015 10:38 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] DC conductor line loss numbers Wrenches Some time back there was discussion on the conductor size and efficiency rating requirement for long DC runs. What I am looking at is this, 400 feet of MCM 400 to keep the line loss at or below 1% per NEC code for an off grid application, cost vs return is not acceptable. 2/0 is less than 2.5% and the cost is far less. Specs are 4 strings of 3, 250 watt modules feeding one Outback FM 80 charge controller. There are lots of things I can do like SMA instread, or 200 VDC charge controller but nothing can be changed except the wire gauge. Does anyone recall a thread with this topic. thoughts ?? Jerry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From howie at suncatchervt.com Thu Jul 23 08:18:35 2015 From: howie at suncatchervt.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2015 08:18:35 -0400 (Eas) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Meggers for1000 volt arrays Message-ID: <26802.66.220.236.87.1437653915.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com> We are starting to work with 1000 volt arrays. What different settings should we be using for testing insulation on these array? Anyone have a favorite megger for testing these arrays. Thanks as always, Howie -- Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ Catamount Solar, LLC From kirk at vtsolar.com Thu Jul 23 13:34:15 2015 From: kirk at vtsolar.com (Kirk) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2015 13:34:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Meggers for1000 volt arrays In-Reply-To: <26802.66.220.236.87.1437653915.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com> References: <26802.66.220.236.87.1437653915.squirrel@mail4.atypica.com> Message-ID: Howie, If meggering an array, first of all, check with your panel oem to see what voltage they recommend to safely IRT. In a series string, you are effectively meggering at the meter voltage plus the cumulative series string voltage. If the meter is set to 500v, and you are measuring a string which is 500 vdc open circuit, the last panel in the string is meggered at 1000v, the middle panel 750v, etc. Kirk Herander VSE Sent from a job site somewhere > On Jul 23, 2015, at 8:18 AM, Howie Michaelson wrote: > > We are starting to work with 1000 volt arrays. What different settings > should we be using for testing insulation on these array? Anyone have a > favorite megger for testing these arrays. > > Thanks as always, > Howie > -- > Howie Michaelson > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ > Catamount Solar, LLC > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From david.brearley at solarprofessional.com Thu Jul 23 17:38:11 2015 From: david.brearley at solarprofessional.com (David Brearley) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2015 16:38:11 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Environmental extremes (high snow, wind or corrosivity) Message-ID: <9A70C85B-E8B9-4B45-A82C-54DB9512AE4C@solarprofessional.com> Greetings wrenches, Anyone have any photos they'd like to share for an interview-based article in SolarPro about designing PV systems for extreme environments? For the purposes of this article, we’re focusing on mechanical loads and stresses. Think high design wind speeds (Florida), high snow loads (high elevations and latitudes), and coastal corrosion. We’re interested in both: Photos of best practices, Photos of common mistakes And photos of field failures (separated frames, laminates sucked out of frames, broken modules, etc.) Generally speaking, we run photos of the best practices with a courtesy credit and photos of failures anonymously without a credit. In terms of field failures, I think damages resulting from an act of God are just as interesting to installers as photos of avoidable damages. We can clarify which is which in the caption. If you have any photos or expertise you’d like to share, please contact me directly via email: david.brearley at solarprofessional.com Thanks! David Brearley Senior Technical Editor, SolarPro magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional david.brearley at solarprofessional.com Direct: 541.261.6545 Follow us on Twitter: @SolarPro Check out this AMAZING music video tribute to SolarPro: http://bit.ly/1qfMCCh -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Jul 24 05:49:27 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2015 05:49:27 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA 1800u not generating power Message-ID: I am looking at a 1800u from 2004 that has a green light and in mpp mode, but Pac is zero. Grid and DC voltage are good. No other indication of problems. I saw Pac tick up to 2W a couple of times, but that's it. It's just not delivering AC power. Any thoughts? Sadly, it doesn't make much financial sense for the owner to replace it with a current model, as the replacement cost would take almost 10 years to recover with the small BIPV array connected to it. I'm hoping for a field repair option. Jason Szumlanski -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at ecologicalsystems.biz Fri Jul 24 10:04:05 2015 From: sky at ecologicalsystems.biz (Sky Sims) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2015 10:04:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA 1800u not generating power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is a known issue. I've come across a bunch of their inverters that have had this problem. In addition to seeing this issue on their 1800's I've seen it happen on their 2500's as well. Shows a solid green light but isn't putting out power. The first time I came across this issue they had a refurbishment program, where they would rebuild the inverter and send it back with a one year warranty for under $400. The refurbishment program was a great program that I hope they bring back someday. The last few times I contacted SMA about one of these defective inverters, they said the product was not under warranty and they no longer supported it. Only option they gave was to buy a new unit. Sky Sims Ecological Systems > On Jul 24, 2015, at 5:49 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > I am looking at a 1800u from 2004 that has a green light and in mpp mode, but Pac is zero. Grid and DC voltage are good. No other indication of problems. I saw Pac tick up to 2W a couple of times, but that's it. It's just not delivering AC power. > > Any thoughts? > > Sadly, it doesn't make much financial sense for the owner to replace it with a current model, as the replacement cost would take almost 10 years to recover with the small BIPV array connected to it. I'm hoping for a field repair option. > > Jason Szumlanski > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Jul 24 10:25:35 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2015 10:25:35 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA 1800u not generating power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Someone contacted me off list and said this company does out of warranty SMA repairs: http://www.shop.solarcowboyzoutlet.com/Inverter-Repair-Service-Inverter-Repair-Service.htm Looks like there is a risk in how big the repair is, but apparently they are willing to talk about the diagnostics before you send it in, and fix minor problems for a flat rate. One bad part about these small systems is that labor to repair or replace failed units can easily turn into a cost equivalent to years of energy production, not to mention the hardware cost itself... I've only sold a few "tiny" systems over the years, and never really considered this. It makes much more financial sense for an owner to replace a failed 5kW inverter when the labor is basically the same as a 2kW. Jason Szumlanski On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Sky Sims wrote: > This is a known issue. I've come across a bunch of their inverters that > have had this problem. In addition to seeing this issue on their 1800's > I've seen it happen on their 2500's as well. Shows a solid green light but > isn't putting out power. > The first time I came across this issue they had a refurbishment program, > where they would rebuild the inverter and send it back with a one year > warranty for under $400. The refurbishment program was a great program that > I hope they bring back someday. > The last few times I contacted SMA about one of these defective inverters, > they said the product was not under warranty and they no longer supported > it. Only option they gave was to buy a new unit. > > Sky Sims > Ecological Systems > > > On Jul 24, 2015, at 5:49 AM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > I am looking at a 1800u from 2004 that has a green light and in mpp mode, > but Pac is zero. Grid and DC voltage are good. No other indication of > problems. I saw Pac tick up to 2W a couple of times, but that's it. It's > just not delivering AC power. > > Any thoughts? > > Sadly, it doesn't make much financial sense for the owner to replace it > with a current model, as the replacement cost would take almost 10 years to > recover with the small BIPV array connected to it. I'm hoping for a field > repair option. > > Jason Szumlanski > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Jul 24 12:57:50 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2015 06:57:50 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA 1800u not generating power Message-ID: SMA used to to do repairs but last I heard they no longer have replacement parts. I have used the new SMA TL-22 because of the low voltage dc input. If you added some additional modules to the "B" input it might qualify for the tax credit (I did say might) Good luck Jerry Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Jason Szumlanski
Date:07/24/2015 4:25 AM (GMT-10:00)
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA 1800u not generating power
Someone contacted me off list and said this company does out of warranty SMA repairs: http://www.shop.solarcowboyzoutlet.com/Inverter-Repair-Service-Inverter-Repair-Service.htm Looks like there is a risk in how big the repair is, but apparently they are willing to talk about the diagnostics before you send it in, and fix minor problems for a flat rate. One bad part about these small systems is that labor to repair or replace failed units can easily turn into a cost equivalent to years of energy production, not to mention the hardware cost itself... I've only sold a few "tiny" systems over the years, and never really considered this. It makes much more financial sense for an owner to replace a failed 5kW inverter when the labor is basically the same as a 2kW. Jason Szumlanski On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Sky Sims wrote: This is a known issue. I've come across a bunch of their inverters that have had this problem. In addition to seeing this issue on their 1800's I've seen it happen on their 2500's as well. Shows a solid green light but isn't putting out power. The first time I came across this issue they had a refurbishment program, where they would rebuild the inverter and send it back with a one year warranty for under $400. The refurbishment program was a great program that I hope they bring back someday. The last few times I contacted SMA about one of these defective inverters, they said the product was not under warranty and they no longer supported it. Only option they gave was to buy a new unit. Sky Sims Ecological Systems On Jul 24, 2015, at 5:49 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: I am looking at a 1800u from 2004 that has a green light and in mpp mode, but Pac is zero. Grid and DC voltage are good. No other indication of problems. I saw Pac tick up to 2W a couple of times, but that's it. It's just not delivering AC power. Any thoughts? Sadly, it doesn't make much financial sense for the owner to replace it with a current model, as the replacement cost would take almost 10 years to recover with the small BIPV array connected to it. I'm hoping for a field repair option. Jason Szumlanski _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri Jul 24 14:14:19 2015 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2015 14:14:19 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA 1800u not generating power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20150724181429.7C01E10921@che.dreamhost.com> How do you get around the code requirement for the use of PV wire with a TL inverter on the existing array? Sincerely, Glenn Burt Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. -----Original Message----- From: "jerrysgarage01" Sent: ‎7/‎24/‎2015 12:57 To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA 1800u not generating power SMA used to to do repairs but last I heard they no longer have replacement parts. I have used the new SMA TL-22 because of the low voltage dc input. If you added some additional modules to the "B" input it might qualify for the tax credit (I did say might) Good luck Jerry Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Jason Szumlanski
Date:07/24/2015 4:25 AM (GMT-10:00)
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA 1800u not generating power
Someone contacted me off list and said this company does out of warranty SMA repairs: http://www.shop.solarcowboyzoutlet.com/Inverter-Repair-Service-Inverter-Repair-Service.htm Looks like there is a risk in how big the repair is, but apparently they are willing to talk about the diagnostics before you send it in, and fix minor problems for a flat rate. One bad part about these small systems is that labor to repair or replace failed units can easily turn into a cost equivalent to years of energy production, not to mention the hardware cost itself... I've only sold a few "tiny" systems over the years, and never really considered this. It makes much more financial sense for an owner to replace a failed 5kW inverter when the labor is basically the same as a 2kW. Jason Szumlanski On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Sky Sims wrote: This is a known issue. I've come across a bunch of their inverters that have had this problem. In addition to seeing this issue on their 1800's I've seen it happen on their 2500's as well. Shows a solid green light but isn't putting out power. The first time I came across this issue they had a refurbishment program, where they would rebuild the inverter and send it back with a one year warranty for under $400. The refurbishment program was a great program that I hope they bring back someday. The last few times I contacted SMA about one of these defective inverters, they said the product was not under warranty and they no longer supported it. Only option they gave was to buy a new unit. Sky Sims Ecological Systems On Jul 24, 2015, at 5:49 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: I am looking at a 1800u from 2004 that has a green light and in mpp mode, but Pac is zero. Grid and DC voltage are good. No other indication of problems. I saw Pac tick up to 2W a couple of times, but that's it. It's just not delivering AC power. Any thoughts? Sadly, it doesn't make much financial sense for the owner to replace it with a current model, as the replacement cost would take almost 10 years to recover with the small BIPV array connected to it. I'm hoping for a field repair option. Jason Szumlanski _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Jul 24 14:40:34 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2015 08:40:34 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA 1800u not generating power Message-ID: Replacing the wire would be in most cases a simple solution Jerry Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Glenn Burt
Date:07/24/2015 8:14 AM (GMT-10:00)
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA 1800u not generating power
How do you get around the code requirement for the use of PV wire with a TL inverter on the existing array? Sincerely, Glenn Burt Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. From: jerrysgarage01 Sent: ‎7/‎24/‎2015 12:57 To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA 1800u not generating power SMA used to to do repairs but last I heard they no longer have replacement parts. I have used the new SMA TL-22 because of the low voltage dc input. If you added some additional modules to the "B" input it might qualify for the tax credit (I did say might) Good luck Jerry Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Jason Szumlanski Date:07/24/2015 4:25 AM (GMT-10:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA 1800u not generating power Someone contacted me off list and said this company does out of warranty SMA repairs: http://www.shop.solarcowboyzoutlet.com/Inverter-Repair-Service-Inverter-Repair-Service.htm Looks like there is a risk in how big the repair is, but apparently they are willing to talk about the diagnostics before you send it in, and fix minor problems for a flat rate. One bad part about these small systems is that labor to repair or replace failed units can easily turn into a cost equivalent to years of energy production, not to mention the hardware cost itself... I've only sold a few "tiny" systems over the years, and never really considered this. It makes much more financial sense for an owner to replace a failed 5kW inverter when the labor is basically the same as a 2kW. Jason Szumlanski On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Sky Sims wrote: This is a known issue. I've come across a bunch of their inverters that have had this problem. In addition to seeing this issue on their 1800's I've seen it happen on their 2500's as well. Shows a solid green light but isn't putting out power. The first time I came across this issue they had a refurbishment program, where they would rebuild the inverter and send it back with a one year warranty for under $400. The refurbishment program was a great program that I hope they bring back someday. The last few times I contacted SMA about one of these defective inverters, they said the product was not under warranty and they no longer supported it. Only option they gave was to buy a new unit. Sky Sims Ecological Systems On Jul 24, 2015, at 5:49 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: I am looking at a 1800u from 2004 that has a green light and in mpp mode, but Pac is zero. Grid and DC voltage are good. No other indication of problems. I saw Pac tick up to 2W a couple of times, but that's it. It's just not delivering AC power. Any thoughts? Sadly, it doesn't make much financial sense for the owner to replace it with a current model, as the replacement cost would take almost 10 years to recover with the small BIPV array connected to it. I'm hoping for a field repair option. Jason Szumlanski _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Fri Jul 24 15:30:53 2015 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2015 12:30:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA 1800u not generating power In-Reply-To: <20150724181429.7C01E10921@che.dreamhost.com> References: <20150724181429.7C01E10921@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <9ba562a133f99b886bb5703b53a5df52@mail.gmail.com> Hi Glenn and All – Most of these old systems have module cables made out of USE-2. So, just changing out the array USE-2 home runs won’t technically cut it. Something should be written into the code to allow old systems to use TL inverters for upgrades, especially since TL inverters are safer than their transformer based (isolated) counterparts. For now I guess we either make a decision to source transformer based inverters for replacements or install TL inverters despite the code violation. It is definitely a bummer that SMA isn’t doing the refurbished program anymore with their old units. Best, August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Glenn Burt *Sent:* Friday, July 24, 2015 11:14 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA 1800u not generating power How do you get around the code requirement for the use of PV wire with a TL inverter on the existing array? Sincerely, Glenn Burt Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. ------------------------------ *From: *jerrysgarage01 *Sent: *‎7/‎24/‎2015 12:57 *To: *RE-wrenches *Subject: *Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA 1800u not generating power SMA used to to do repairs but last I heard they no longer have replacement parts. I have used the new SMA TL-22 because of the low voltage dc input. If you added some additional modules to the "B" input it might qualify for the tax credit (I did say might) Good luck Jerry Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Jason Szumlanski Date:07/24/2015 4:25 AM (GMT-10:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA 1800u not generating power Someone contacted me off list and said this company does out of warranty SMA repairs: http://www.shop.solarcowboyzoutlet.com/Inverter-Repair-Service-Inverter-Repair-Service.htm Looks like there is a risk in how big the repair is, but apparently they are willing to talk about the diagnostics before you send it in, and fix minor problems for a flat rate. One bad part about these small systems is that labor to repair or replace failed units can easily turn into a cost equivalent to years of energy production, not to mention the hardware cost itself... I've only sold a few "tiny" systems over the years, and never really considered this. It makes much more financial sense for an owner to replace a failed 5kW inverter when the labor is basically the same as a 2kW. Jason Szumlanski On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Sky Sims wrote: This is a known issue. I've come across a bunch of their inverters that have had this problem. In addition to seeing this issue on their 1800's I've seen it happen on their 2500's as well. Shows a solid green light but isn't putting out power. The first time I came across this issue they had a refurbishment program, where they would rebuild the inverter and send it back with a one year warranty for under $400. The refurbishment program was a great program that I hope they bring back someday. The last few times I contacted SMA about one of these defective inverters, they said the product was not under warranty and they no longer supported it. Only option they gave was to buy a new unit. Sky Sims Ecological Systems On Jul 24, 2015, at 5:49 AM, Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: I am looking at a 1800u from 2004 that has a green light and in mpp mode, but Pac is zero. Grid and DC voltage are good. No other indication of problems. I saw Pac tick up to 2W a couple of times, but that's it. It's just not delivering AC power. Any thoughts? Sadly, it doesn't make much financial sense for the owner to replace it with a current model, as the replacement cost would take almost 10 years to recover with the small BIPV array connected to it. I'm hoping for a field repair option. Jason Szumlanski _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Jul 24 16:24:59 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2015 10:24:59 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA 1800u not generating power In-Reply-To: <9ba562a133f99b886bb5703b53a5df52@mail.gmail.com> References: <20150724181429.7C01E10921@che.dreamhost.com> <9ba562a133f99b886bb5703b53a5df52@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: >From what I was told from SMA the board level components are no longer available from there lower level manufactures. Jerry On Jul 24, 2015 9:30 AM, "August Goers" wrote: > Hi Glenn and All – > > > > Most of these old systems have module cables made out of USE-2. So, just > changing out the array USE-2 home runs won’t technically cut it. > > > > Something should be written into the code to allow old systems to use TL > inverters for upgrades, especially since TL inverters are safer than their > transformer based (isolated) counterparts. > > > > For now I guess we either make a decision to source transformer based > inverters for replacements or install TL inverters despite the code > violation. > > > > It is definitely a bummer that SMA isn’t doing the refurbished program > anymore with their old units. > > > > Best, > > > > August > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Glenn Burt > *Sent:* Friday, July 24, 2015 11:14 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA 1800u not generating power > > > > How do you get around the code requirement for the use of PV wire with a > TL inverter on the existing array? > > Sincerely, > Glenn Burt > Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. > ------------------------------ > > *From: *jerrysgarage01 > *Sent: *‎7/‎24/‎2015 12:57 > *To: *RE-wrenches > *Subject: *Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA 1800u not generating power > > SMA used to to do repairs but last I heard they no longer have replacement > parts. I have used the new SMA TL-22 because of the low voltage dc input. > If you added some additional modules to the "B" input it might qualify for > the tax credit (I did say might) > > Good luck > > Jerry > > > > > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone > > > > -------- Original message -------- > > From: Jason Szumlanski > > Date:07/24/2015 4:25 AM (GMT-10:00) > > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA 1800u not generating power > > > > Someone contacted me off list and said this company does out of warranty > SMA repairs: > > > > > http://www.shop.solarcowboyzoutlet.com/Inverter-Repair-Service-Inverter-Repair-Service.htm > > > > Looks like there is a risk in how big the repair is, but apparently they > are willing to talk about the diagnostics before you send it in, and fix > minor problems for a flat rate. > > > > One bad part about these small systems is that labor to repair or replace > failed units can easily turn into a cost equivalent to years of energy > production, not to mention the hardware cost itself... I've only sold a few > "tiny" systems over the years, and never really considered this. It makes > much more financial sense for an owner to replace a failed 5kW inverter > when the labor is basically the same as a 2kW. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Sky Sims > wrote: > > This is a known issue. I've come across a bunch of their inverters that > have had this problem. In addition to seeing this issue on their 1800's > I've seen it happen on their 2500's as well. Shows a solid green light but > isn't putting out power. > > The first time I came across this issue they had a refurbishment program, > where they would rebuild the inverter and send it back with a one year > warranty for under $400. The refurbishment program was a great program that > I hope they bring back someday. > > The last few times I contacted SMA about one of these defective inverters, > they said the product was not under warranty and they no longer supported > it. Only option they gave was to buy a new unit. > > Sky Sims > > Ecological Systems > > > On Jul 24, 2015, at 5:49 AM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > I am looking at a 1800u from 2004 that has a green light and in mpp mode, > but Pac is zero. Grid and DC voltage are good. No other indication of > problems. I saw Pac tick up to 2W a couple of times, but that's it. It's > just not delivering AC power. > > Any thoughts? > > Sadly, it doesn't make much financial sense for the owner to replace it > with a current model, as the replacement cost would take almost 10 years to > recover with the small BIPV array connected to it. I'm hoping for a field > repair option. > > Jason Szumlanski > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Jul 24 16:59:04 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2015 22:59:04 +0200 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA 1800u not generating power In-Reply-To: <20150724181429.7C01E10921@che.dreamhost.com> References: <20150724181429.7C01E10921@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <53AA0EFA-DF96-4509-99E8-8614CD93E424@millersolar.com> Put it in conduit. > On Jul 24, 2015, at 8:14 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: > > How do you get around the code requirement for the use of PV wire with a TL inverter on the existing array? > > Sincerely, > Glenn Burt > Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. > From: jerrysgarage01 > Sent: ‎7/‎24/‎2015 12:57 > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA 1800u not generating power > > SMA used to to do repairs but last I heard they no longer have replacement parts. I have used the new SMA TL-22 because of the low voltage dc input. If you added some additional modules to the "B" input it might qualify for the tax credit (I did say might) > Good luck > Jerry > > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Jason Szumlanski > Date:07/24/2015 4:25 AM (GMT-10:00) > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA 1800u not generating power > > Someone contacted me off list and said this company does out of warranty SMA repairs: > > http://www.shop.solarcowboyzoutlet.com/Inverter-Repair-Service-Inverter-Repair-Service.htm > > Looks like there is a risk in how big the repair is, but apparently they are willing to talk about the diagnostics before you send it in, and fix minor problems for a flat rate. > > One bad part about these small systems is that labor to repair or replace failed units can easily turn into a cost equivalent to years of energy production, not to mention the hardware cost itself... I've only sold a few "tiny" systems over the years, and never really considered this. It makes much more financial sense for an owner to replace a failed 5kW inverter when the labor is basically the same as a 2kW. > > Jason Szumlanski > > >> On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Sky Sims wrote: >> This is a known issue. I've come across a bunch of their inverters that have had this problem. In addition to seeing this issue on their 1800's I've seen it happen on their 2500's as well. Shows a solid green light but isn't putting out power. >> The first time I came across this issue they had a refurbishment program, where they would rebuild the inverter and send it back with a one year warranty for under $400. The refurbishment program was a great program that I hope they bring back someday. >> The last few times I contacted SMA about one of these defective inverters, they said the product was not under warranty and they no longer supported it. Only option they gave was to buy a new unit. >> >> Sky Sims >> Ecological Systems >> >> >>> On Jul 24, 2015, at 5:49 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>> >>> I am looking at a 1800u from 2004 that has a green light and in mpp mode, but Pac is zero. Grid and DC voltage are good. No other indication of problems. I saw Pac tick up to 2W a couple of times, but that's it. It's just not delivering AC power. >>> >>> Any thoughts? >>> >>> Sadly, it doesn't make much financial sense for the owner to replace it with a current model, as the replacement cost would take almost 10 years to recover with the small BIPV array connected to it. I'm hoping for a field repair option. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri Jul 24 17:14:19 2015 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2015 17:14:19 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA 1800u not generating power In-Reply-To: <53AA0EFA-DF96-4509-99E8-8614CD93E424@millersolar.com> References: <20150724181429.7C01E10921@che.dreamhost.com> <53AA0EFA-DF96-4509-99E8-8614CD93E424@millersolar.com> Message-ID: <20150724211429.9D0D51096E@che.dreamhost.com> All the way back to the module jboxes? Sounds pricey. That is assuming the module jboxes accept conduit. Indeed it I not only the home runs that need to be concerned with the PV rating, but the module conductors as well, as there is no distinction made in the code between them. Sincerely, Glenn Burt Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. -----Original Message----- From: "William Miller" Sent: ‎7/‎24/‎2015 16:59 To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA 1800u not generating power Put it in conduit. > On Jul 24, 2015, at 8:14 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: > > How do you get around the code requirement for the use of PV wire with a TL inverter on the existing array? > > Sincerely, > Glenn Burt > Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. > From: jerrysgarage01 > Sent: ‎7/‎24/‎2015 12:57 > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA 1800u not generating power > > SMA used to to do repairs but last I heard they no longer have replacement parts. I have used the new SMA TL-22 because of the low voltage dc input. If you added some additional modules to the "B" input it might qualify for the tax credit (I did say might) > Good luck > Jerry > > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Jason Szumlanski > Date:07/24/2015 4:25 AM (GMT-10:00) > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA 1800u not generating power > > Someone contacted me off list and said this company does out of warranty SMA repairs: > > http://www.shop.solarcowboyzoutlet.com/Inverter-Repair-Service-Inverter-Repair-Service.htm > > Looks like there is a risk in how big the repair is, but apparently they are willing to talk about the diagnostics before you send it in, and fix minor problems for a flat rate. > > One bad part about these small systems is that labor to repair or replace failed units can easily turn into a cost equivalent to years of energy production, not to mention the hardware cost itself... I've only sold a few "tiny" systems over the years, and never really considered this. It makes much more financial sense for an owner to replace a failed 5kW inverter when the labor is basically the same as a 2kW. > > Jason Szumlanski > > >> On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Sky Sims wrote: >> This is a known issue. I've come across a bunch of their inverters that have had this problem. In addition to seeing this issue on their 1800's I've seen it happen on their 2500's as well. Shows a solid green light but isn't putting out power. >> The first time I came across this issue they had a refurbishment program, where they would rebuild the inverter and send it back with a one year warranty for under $400. The refurbishment program was a great program that I hope they bring back someday. >> The last few times I contacted SMA about one of these defective inverters, they said the product was not under warranty and they no longer supported it. Only option they gave was to buy a new unit. >> >> Sky Sims >> Ecological Systems >> >> >>> On Jul 24, 2015, at 5:49 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>> >>> I am looking at a 1800u from 2004 that has a green light and in mpp mode, but Pac is zero. Grid and DC voltage are good. No other indication of problems. I saw Pac tick up to 2W a couple of times, but that's it. It's just not delivering AC power. >>> >>> Any thoughts? >>> >>> Sadly, it doesn't make much financial sense for the owner to replace it with a current model, as the replacement cost would take almost 10 years to recover with the small BIPV array connected to it. I'm hoping for a field repair option. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > [The entire original message is not included.] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Jul 24 17:09:33 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2015 11:09:33 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA 1800u not generating power In-Reply-To: <53AA0EFA-DF96-4509-99E8-8614CD93E424@millersolar.com> References: <20150724181429.7C01E10921@che.dreamhost.com> <53AA0EFA-DF96-4509-99E8-8614CD93E424@millersolar.com> Message-ID: There you go, I just assumed it was Jerry On Jul 24, 2015 10:59 AM, "William Miller" wrote: > Put it in conduit. > > > > On Jul 24, 2015, at 8:14 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: > > How do you get around the code requirement for the use of PV wire with a > TL inverter on the existing array? > > Sincerely, > Glenn Burt > Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. > ------------------------------ > From: jerrysgarage01 > Sent: ‎7/‎24/‎2015 12:57 > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA 1800u not generating power > > SMA used to to do repairs but last I heard they no longer have replacement > parts. I have used the new SMA TL-22 because of the low voltage dc input. > If you added some additional modules to the "B" input it might qualify for > the tax credit (I did say might) > Good luck > Jerry > > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Jason Szumlanski > Date:07/24/2015 4:25 AM (GMT-10:00) > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA 1800u not generating power > > Someone contacted me off list and said this company does out of warranty > SMA repairs: > > > http://www.shop.solarcowboyzoutlet.com/Inverter-Repair-Service-Inverter-Repair-Service.htm > > Looks like there is a risk in how big the repair is, but apparently they > are willing to talk about the diagnostics before you send it in, and fix > minor problems for a flat rate. > > One bad part about these small systems is that labor to repair or replace > failed units can easily turn into a cost equivalent to years of energy > production, not to mention the hardware cost itself... I've only sold a few > "tiny" systems over the years, and never really considered this. It makes > much more financial sense for an owner to replace a failed 5kW inverter > when the labor is basically the same as a 2kW. > > Jason Szumlanski > > > On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Sky Sims > wrote: > >> This is a known issue. I've come across a bunch of their inverters that >> have had this problem. In addition to seeing this issue on their 1800's >> I've seen it happen on their 2500's as well. Shows a solid green light but >> isn't putting out power. >> The first time I came across this issue they had a refurbishment program, >> where they would rebuild the inverter and send it back with a one year >> warranty for under $400. The refurbishment program was a great program that >> I hope they bring back someday. >> The last few times I contacted SMA about one of these defective >> inverters, they said the product was not under warranty and they no longer >> supported it. Only option they gave was to buy a new unit. >> >> Sky Sims >> Ecological Systems >> >> >> On Jul 24, 2015, at 5:49 AM, Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >> I am looking at a 1800u from 2004 that has a green light and in mpp >> mode, but Pac is zero. Grid and DC voltage are good. No other indication >> of problems. I saw Pac tick up to 2W a couple of times, but that's it. >> It's just not delivering AC power. >> >> Any thoughts? >> >> Sadly, it doesn't make much financial sense for the owner to replace it >> with a current model, as the replacement cost would take almost 10 years to >> recover with the small BIPV array connected to it. I'm hoping for a field >> repair option. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 24 19:07:10 2015 From: billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net (billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2015 16:07:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA 1800u not generating power In-Reply-To: <20150724211429.9D0D51096E@che.dreamhost.com> References: <20150724181429.7C01E10921@che.dreamhost.com> <53AA0EFA-DF96-4509-99E8-8614CD93E424@millersolar.com> <20150724211429.9D0D51096E@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <014d01d0c665$79a30df0$6ce929d0$@sbcglobal.net> Glenn, While the installation may not claim exact compliance with the current NEC (debatable), you can easily show that the TL inverter is much safer than the older 1800U. The TL has arc-fault detection and much better ground-fault detection. Conduit is not the answer since it breaks several other code requirements like the module manufacturer’s instructions (110.3(B)). Bill Brooks. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt Sent: Friday, July 24, 2015 2:14 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA 1800u not generating power All the way back to the module jboxes? Sounds pricey. That is assuming the module jboxes accept conduit. Indeed it I not only the home runs that need to be concerned with the PV rating, but the module conductors as well, as there is no distinction made in the code between them. Sincerely, Glenn Burt Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. _____ From: William Miller Sent: ‎7/‎24/‎2015 16:59 To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA 1800u not generating power Put it in conduit. On Jul 24, 2015, at 8:14 PM, Glenn Burt > wrote: How do you get around the code requirement for the use of PV wire with a TL inverter on the existing array? Sincerely, Glenn Burt Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. _____ From: jerrysgarage01 Sent: ‎7/‎24/‎2015 12:57 To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA 1800u not generating power SMA used to to do repairs but last I heard they no longer have replacement parts. I have used the new SMA TL-22 because of the low voltage dc input. If you added some additional modules to the "B" input it might qualify for the tax credit (I did say might) Good luck Jerry Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Jason Szumlanski Date:07/24/2015 4:25 AM (GMT-10:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA 1800u not generating power Someone contacted me off list and said this company does out of warranty SMA repairs: http://www.shop.solarcowboyzoutlet.com/Inverter-Repair-Service-Inverter-Repair-Service.htm Looks like there is a risk in how big the repair is, but apparently they are willing to talk about the diagnostics before you send it in, and fix minor problems for a flat rate. One bad part about these small systems is that labor to repair or replace failed units can easily turn into a cost equivalent to years of energy production, not to mention the hardware cost itself... I've only sold a few "tiny" systems over the years, and never really considered this. It makes much more financial sense for an owner to replace a failed 5kW inverter when the labor is basically the same as a 2kW. Jason Szumlanski On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Sky Sims > wrote: This is a known issue. I've come across a bunch of their inverters that have had this problem. In addition to seeing this issue on their 1800's I've seen it happen on their 2500's as well. Shows a solid green light but isn't putting out power. The first time I came across this issue they had a refurbishment program, where they would rebuild the inverter and send it back with a one year warranty for under $400. The refurbishment program was a great program that I hope they bring back someday. The last few times I contacted SMA about one of these defective inverters, they said the product was not under warranty and they no longer supported it. Only option they gave was to buy a new unit. Sky Sims Ecological Systems On Jul 24, 2015, at 5:49 AM, Jason Szumlanski > wrote: I am looking at a 1800u from 2004 that has a green light and in mpp mode, but Pac is zero. Grid and DC voltage are good. No other indication of problems. I saw Pac tick up to 2W a couple of times, but that's it. It's just not delivering AC power. Any thoughts? Sadly, it doesn't make much financial sense for the owner to replace it with a current model, as the replacement cost would take almost 10 years to recover with the small BIPV array connected to it. I'm hoping for a field repair option. Jason Szumlanski _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.ma [The entire original message is not included.] --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri Jul 24 21:13:29 2015 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2015 21:13:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA 1800u not generating power In-Reply-To: <014d01d0c665$79a30df0$6ce929d0$@sbcglobal.net> References: <20150724181429.7C01E10921@che.dreamhost.com> <53AA0EFA-DF96-4509-99E8-8614CD93E424@millersolar.com> <20150724211429.9D0D51096E@che.dreamhost.com> <014d01d0c665$79a30df0$6ce929d0$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <000901d0c677$1fdd7780$5f986680$@burt@glbcc.com> Bill, Thanks for chiming in and going on the record with a good position! -Glenn Burt From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net Sent: Friday, July 24, 2015 7:07 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA 1800u not generating power Glenn, While the installation may not claim exact compliance with the current NEC (debatable), you can easily show that the TL inverter is much safer than the older 1800U. The TL has arc-fault detection and much better ground-fault detection. Conduit is not the answer since it breaks several other code requirements like the module manufacturer’s instructions (110.3(B)). Bill Brooks. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt Sent: Friday, July 24, 2015 2:14 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA 1800u not generating power All the way back to the module jboxes? Sounds pricey. That is assuming the module jboxes accept conduit. Indeed it I not only the home runs that need to be concerned with the PV rating, but the module conductors as well, as there is no distinction made in the code between them. Sincerely, Glenn Burt Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. _____ From: William Miller Sent: ‎7/‎24/‎2015 16:59 To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA 1800u not generating power Put it in conduit. On Jul 24, 2015, at 8:14 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: How do you get around the code requirement for the use of PV wire with a TL inverter on the existing array? Sincerely, Glenn Burt Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. _____ From: jerrysgarage01 Sent: ‎7/‎24/‎2015 12:57 To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA 1800u not generating power SMA used to to do repairs but last I heard they no longer have replacement parts. I have used the new SMA TL-22 because of the low voltage dc input. If you added some additional modules to the "B" input it might qualify for the tax credit (I did say might) Good luck Jerry Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Jason Szumlanski Date:07/24/2015 4:25 AM (GMT-10:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA 1800u not generating power Someone contacted me off list and said this company does out of warranty SMA repairs: http://www.shop.solarcowboyzoutlet.com/Inverter-Repair-Service-Inverter-Repair-Service.htm Looks like there is a risk in how big the repair is, but apparently they are willing to talk about the diagnostics before you send it in, and fix minor problems for a flat rate. One bad part about these small systems is that labor to repair or replace failed units can easily turn into a cost equivalent to years of energy production, not to mention the hardware cost itself... I've only sold a few "tiny" systems over the years, and never really considered this. It makes much more financial sense for an owner to replace a failed 5kW inverter when the labor is basically the same as a 2kW. Jason Szumlanski On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Sky Sims wrote: This is a known issue. I've come across a bunch of their inverters that have had this problem. In addition to seeing this issue on their 1800's I've seen it happen on their 2500's as well. Shows a solid green light but isn't putting out power. The first time I came across this issue they had a refurbishment program, where they would rebuild the inverter and send it back with a one year warranty for under $400. The refurbishment program was a great program that I hope they bring back someday. The last few times I contacted SMA about one of these defective inverters, they said the product was not under warranty and they no longer supported it. Only option they gave was to buy a new unit. Sky Sims Ecological Systems On Jul 24, 2015, at 5:49 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: I am looking at a 1800u from 2004 that has a green light and in mpp mode, but Pac is zero. Grid and DC voltage are good. No other indication of problems. I saw Pac tick up to 2W a couple of times, but that's it. It's just not delivering AC power. Any thoughts? Sadly, it doesn't make much financial sense for the owner to replace it with a current model, as the replacement cost would take almost 10 years to recover with the small BIPV array connected to it. I'm hoping for a field repair option. Jason Szumlanski _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.ma [The entire original message is not included.] _____ Avast logo This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 2145 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Jul 24 23:52:51 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2015 17:52:51 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC conductor line loss numbers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches I have 3 engineering firms and one in-house engineer that only use 1% because in the NEC it is stated as a suggestion and not a requirement but they take this as a must not exceed instead, I cant change CC as it will be remotely monitored via the Outback connection, the Engineers refuse to make any changes to the 1% and still stamp the drawings. This is what I have found in my research it came from Mike Holt Contrary to common belief, the NEC generally doesn't require you to size conductors to accommodate voltage drop. It merely suggests in the Fine Print Notes to 210.19(A), 215.2(A)(4), 230.31(C), and 310.15(A)(1) that you adjust for voltage drop when sizing conductors. It's important for you to remember that Fine Print Notes are recommendations, not requirements [90.5(C)]. The NEC recommends that the maximum combined voltage drop for both the feeder and branch circuit shouldn't exceed 5%, and the maximum on the feeder or branch circuit shouldn't exceed 3%. This recommendation is a performance issue, not a safety issue. Jerry On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 11:28 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems < larry at starlightsolar.com> wrote: > Jerry, > > A long distance wire run is practical now days using a high voltage > controller. Have a look at Schneider and Morningstar 600Vdc controllers. > Not sure what you mean "by nothing can be changed but wire size” but you > will have to rewire the strings into series and protect the wire run. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > On Jul 22, 2015, at 10:37 AM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > > Wrenches > Some time back there was discussion on the conductor size and efficiency > rating requirement for long DC runs. > What I am looking at is this, 400 feet of MCM 400 to keep the line loss at > or below 1% per NEC code for an off grid application, cost vs return is not > acceptable. 2/0 is less than 2.5% and the cost is far less. Specs are 4 > strings of 3, 250 watt modules feeding one Outback FM 80 charge controller. > There are lots of things I can do like SMA instread, or 200 VDC charge > controller but nothing can be changed except the wire gauge. Does anyone > recall a thread with this topic. > > thoughts ?? > Jerry > ________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Jul 25 02:46:45 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2015 08:46:45 +0200 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC conductor line loss numbers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have worked out the area under the daily bell curve. A 2% loss at max current equals 1% loss average. Maybe this logic could allow some flexibility. William > On Jul 25, 2015, at 5:52 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Wrenches > I have 3 engineering firms and one in-house engineer that only use 1% because in the NEC it is stated as a suggestion and not a requirement but they take this as a must not exceed instead, > I cant change CC as it will be remotely monitored via the Outback connection, the Engineers refuse to make any changes to the 1% and still stamp the drawings. This is what I have found in my research it came from Mike Holt > > Contrary to common belief, the NEC generally doesn't require you to size conductors to accommodate voltage drop. It merely suggests in the Fine Print Notes to 210.19(A), 215.2(A)(4), 230.31(C), and 310.15(A)(1) that you adjust for voltage drop when sizing conductors. It's important for you to remember that Fine Print Notes are recommendations, not requirements [90.5(C)]. > > The NEC recommends that the maximum combined voltage drop for both the feeder and branch circuit shouldn't exceed 5%, and the maximum on the feeder or branch circuit shouldn't exceed 3%. This recommendation is a performance issue, not a safety issue. > > Jerry > > >> On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 11:28 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: >> Jerry, >> >> A long distance wire run is practical now days using a high voltage controller. Have a look at Schneider and Morningstar 600Vdc controllers. Not sure what you mean "by nothing can be changed but wire size” but you will have to rewire the strings into series and protect the wire run. >> >> Larry Crutcher >> Starlight Solar Power Systems >> >> >> >> On Jul 22, 2015, at 10:37 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >> >> Wrenches >> Some time back there was discussion on the conductor size and efficiency rating requirement for long DC runs. >> What I am looking at is this, 400 feet of MCM 400 to keep the line loss at or below 1% per NEC code for an off grid application, cost vs return is not acceptable. 2/0 is less than 2.5% and the cost is far less. Specs are 4 strings of 3, 250 watt modules feeding one Outback FM 80 charge controller. There are lots of things I can do like SMA instread, or 200 VDC charge controller but nothing can be changed except the wire gauge. Does anyone recall a thread with this topic. >> >> thoughts ?? >> Jerry >> ________________________ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Sat Jul 25 10:45:37 2015 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2015 07:45:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA 1800u not generating power References: <20150724181429.7C01E10921@che.dreamhost.com> <53AA0EFA-DF96-4509-99E8-8614CD93E424@millersolar.com><20150724211429.9D0D51096E@che.dreamhost.com> <014d01d0c665$79a30df0$6ce929d0$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Is another possible solution.....use the prior version of the SB (non-TL)?, of course if the VDC of the strings works out. You wouldn't need to worry about any of the wiring, or trying to convince a clueless AHJ one inverter in safer than another. I've used exclusively TL's in all my installs lately, I assume the non-TL SB's are still available. Bill Feather River Solar Electric ----- Original Message ----- From: billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net To: 'RE-wrenches' Sent: Friday, July 24, 2015 4:07 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA 1800u not generating power Glenn, While the installation may not claim exact compliance with the current NEC (debatable), you can easily show that the TL inverter is much safer than the older 1800U. The TL has arc-fault detection and much better ground-fault detection. Conduit is not the answer since it breaks several other code requirements like the module manufacturer’s instructions (110.3(B)). Bill Brooks. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Sat Jul 25 12:51:41 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2015 09:51:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Effects of Elevation on Air Cooling Message-ID: <55B3BE9D.8050403@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: High Altitude Cooling.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 585132 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Sat Jul 25 15:20:04 2015 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2015 15:20:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC conductor line loss numbers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It should be noted that the NEC recommendations for feeder circuits are to do with acceptable voltages at the load, i.e., you do not want your 208V equipment running on 200V. PV circuits are not feeder circuits, voltage drop is irrelevant. Power loss may be relevant, but only in terms of economic value. If it is preferable to add more PV and lose 10% of the power, as long as there are no issues of heat and potential fire, why shouldn't you be able to make that decision? As PV gets cheaper, replacing cables costing $10,000 to save $10 a year does not make sense. The NEC rules on voltage drop were never designed for PV source circuits. On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 11:52 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches > I have 3 engineering firms and one in-house engineer that only use 1% > because in the NEC it is stated as a suggestion and not a requirement but > they take this as a must not exceed instead, > I cant change CC as it will be remotely monitored via the Outback > connection, the Engineers refuse to make any changes to the 1% and still > stamp the drawings. This is what I have found in my research it came from > Mike Holt > > > Contrary to common belief, the NEC generally doesn't require you to size > conductors to accommodate voltage drop. It merely suggests in the Fine > Print Notes to 210.19(A), 215.2(A)(4), 230.31(C), and 310.15(A)(1) that you > adjust for voltage drop when sizing conductors. It's important for you to > remember that Fine Print Notes are recommendations, not requirements > [90.5(C)]. > > The NEC recommends that the maximum combined voltage drop for both the > feeder and branch circuit shouldn't exceed 5%, and the maximum on the > feeder or branch circuit shouldn't exceed 3%. This recommendation is a > performance issue, not a safety issue. > > Jerry > > On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 11:28 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems < > larry at starlightsolar.com> wrote: > >> Jerry, >> >> A long distance wire run is practical now days using a high voltage >> controller. Have a look at Schneider and Morningstar 600Vdc controllers. >> Not sure what you mean "by nothing can be changed but wire size” but you >> will have to rewire the strings into series and protect the wire run. >> >> Larry Crutcher >> Starlight Solar Power Systems >> >> >> >> On Jul 22, 2015, at 10:37 AM, Jerry Shafer >> wrote: >> >> Wrenches >> Some time back there was discussion on the conductor size and efficiency >> rating requirement for long DC runs. >> What I am looking at is this, 400 feet of MCM 400 to keep the line loss >> at or below 1% per NEC code for an off grid application, cost vs return is >> not acceptable. 2/0 is less than 2.5% and the cost is far less. Specs are 4 >> strings of 3, 250 watt modules feeding one Outback FM 80 charge controller. >> There are lots of things I can do like SMA instread, or 200 VDC charge >> controller but nothing can be changed except the wire gauge. Does anyone >> recall a thread with this topic. >> >> thoughts ?? >> Jerry >> ________________________ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sat Jul 25 15:45:40 2015 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2015 15:45:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC conductor line loss numbers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20150725194556.41D93109A8@che.dreamhost.com> You would want to confirm hot temp PV circuit values with chosen Vdrop to ensure the irrelevant value doesn't drop you out of the inverters' operational limit, however. Sincerely, Glenn Burt Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. -----Original Message----- From: "Chris Mason" Sent: ‎7/‎25/‎2015 15:20 To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] DC conductor line loss numbers It should be noted that the NEC recommendations for feeder circuits are to do with acceptable voltages at the load, i.e., you do not want your 208V equipment running on 200V. PV circuits are not feeder circuits, voltage drop is irrelevant. Power loss may be relevant, but only in terms of economic value. If it is preferable to add more PV and lose 10% of the power, as long as there are no issues of heat and potential fire, why shouldn't you be able to make that decision? As PV gets cheaper, replacing cables costing $10,000 to save $10 a year does not make sense. The NEC rules on voltage drop were never designed for PV source circuits. On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 11:52 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches > I have 3 engineering firms and one in-house engineer that only use 1% > because in the NEC it is stated as a suggestion and not a requirement but > they take this as a must not exceed instead, > I cant change CC as it will be remotely monitored via the Outback > connection, the Engineers refuse to make any changes to the 1% and still > stamp the drawings. This is what I have found in my research it came from > Mike Holt > > > Contrary to common belief, the NEC generally doesn't require you to size > conductors to accommodate voltage drop. It merely suggests in the Fine > Print Notes to 210.19(A), 215.2(A)(4), 230.31(C), and 310.15(A)(1) that you > adjust for voltage drop when sizing conductors. It's important for you to > remember that Fine Print Notes are recommendations, not requirements > [90.5(C)]. > > The NEC recommends that the maximum combined voltage drop for both the > feeder and branch circuit shouldn't exceed 5%, and the maximum on the > feeder or branch circuit shouldn't exceed 3%. This recommendation is a > performance issue, not a safety issue. > > Jerry > > On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 11:28 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems < > larry at starlightsolar.com> wrote: > >> Jerry, >> >> A long distance wire run is practical now days using a high voltage >> controller. Have a look at Schneider and Morningstar 600Vdc controllers. >> Not sure what you mean "by nothing can be changed but wire size” but you >> will have to rewire the strings into series and protect the wire run. >> >> Larry Crutcher >> Starlight Solar Power Systems >> >> >> >> On Jul 22, 2015, at 10:37 AM, Jerry Shafer >> wrote: >> >> Wrenches >> Some time back there was discussion on the conductor size and efficiency >> rating requirement for long DC runs. >> What I am looking at is this, 400 feet of MCM 400 to keep the line loss >> at or below 1% per NEC code for an off grid application, cost vs return is >> not acceptable. 2/0 is less than 2.5% and the cost is far less. Specs are 4 >> strings of 3, 250 watt modules feeding one Outback FM 80 charge controller. >> There are lots of things I can do like SMA instread, or 200 VDC charge >> controller but nothing can be changed except the wire gauge. Does anyone >> recall a thread with this topic. >> >> thoughts ?? >> Jerry >> ________________________ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts [The entire original message is not included.] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Jul 25 16:17:35 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2015 13:17:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] phone app/shading programs In-Reply-To: <20150725194556.41D93109A8@che.dreamhost.com> References: <20150725194556.41D93109A8@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: HI All, I’m wondering what the recommendations are for phone app/ shading programs. I used to have the Solmetric but they no longer support anything, and it won’t work with new IOS. thoughts/recommendations. thanks jay PS and if there are any that work without cell service? jay Peltz Power From danbob88 at gmail.com Sat Jul 25 17:40:36 2015 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2015 15:40:36 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] phone app/shading programs In-Reply-To: References: <20150725194556.41D93109A8@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Solar Shading from Comoving Magnetics, for android. Accurate enough once you learn how to tilt your phone instead of moving your arms. Dan Fink Buckville Energy IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Sat, Jul 25, 2015 at 2:17 PM, jay wrote: > HI All, > > I’m wondering what the recommendations are for phone app/ shading programs. > > > I used to have the Solmetric but they no longer support anything, and it > won’t work with new IOS. > > thoughts/recommendations. > > thanks > > jay > > > PS and if there are any that work without cell service? > > jay > > Peltz Power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirk at vtsolar.com Sat Jul 25 17:47:41 2015 From: kirk at vtsolar.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2015 17:47:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] phone app/shading programs In-Reply-To: References: <20150725194556.41D93109A8@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <001601d0c723$886c8320$99458960$@vtsolar.com> Jay, I've used a couple iphone apps. One is from RBI Solar called "shading calculator". Rudimentary, but good for discovering distances between tilt-up / pole mount racks so they don't shade each other. The one I like and often use instead of my classic pathfinder is "Sun Seeker". Amongst other things you can take a picture with solstice and equinox sun paths on it. Neither requires wifi access to operate. Kirk Herander VT Solar, LLC Proven PV provider since 1991 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2015 4:18 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] phone app/shading programs HI All, I’m wondering what the recommendations are for phone app/ shading programs. I used to have the Solmetric but they no longer support anything, and it won’t work with new IOS. thoughts/recommendations. thanks jay PS and if there are any that work without cell service? jay Peltz Power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From tom at ecs-solar.com Sun Jul 26 19:34:49 2015 From: tom at ecs-solar.com (Tom Lane) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2015 19:34:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Iron Edison Batteries Message-ID: <42AEB7A8-68B0-4222-A07F-54846DFAB1DA@ecs-solar.com> I have a friend who has forty ( 40 ) Iron Edison Batteries , he says they are each 1.5 volts and wants to use them for a backup to his aquatics business's . Continuous load 24/7 is only 365 watts with surges to 1200 watts . My guess is that ___# of batteries ( maybe 32 to 36 ? ) can be wire as a 48 volt system ? Any suggestion on charge controllers - Morningstar or MidNite ? . .? A Samplex pure sign wave inverter 2000 watts at 48 volts and an Iota 54 volt battery charger is my guess that it might be the way to power the load - any suggestions . Anyone have experience with Iron Edison .any suggestions appreciated ! Gator tom PS : any suggested websites ? Sent from my iPad From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Jul 26 20:46:23 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2015 14:46:23 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Iron Edison Batteries In-Reply-To: <42AEB7A8-68B0-4222-A07F-54846DFAB1DA@ecs-solar.com> References: <42AEB7A8-68B0-4222-A07F-54846DFAB1DA@ecs-solar.com> Message-ID: I have installed these batteries, they require a high Charge control voltage setting. It would be good to service the batteries, changing the fluid now would prevent the need to pull everything apart later Jerry On Jul 26, 2015 2:41 PM, "Tom Lane" wrote: > I have a friend who has forty ( 40 ) Iron Edison Batteries , he says they > are each 1.5 volts and wants to use them for a backup to his aquatics > business's . Continuous load 24/7 is only 365 watts with surges to 1200 > watts . My guess is that ___# of batteries ( maybe 32 to 36 ? ) can be wire > as a 48 volt system ? Any suggestion on charge controllers - Morningstar or > MidNite ? . .? A Samplex pure sign wave inverter 2000 watts at 48 volts and > an Iota 54 volt battery charger is my guess that it might be the way to > power the load - any suggestions . Anyone have experience with Iron Edison > .any suggestions appreciated ! Gator tom PS : any suggested websites ? > > Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Sun Jul 26 20:49:56 2015 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2015 19:49:56 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Iron Edison Batteries In-Reply-To: <42AEB7A8-68B0-4222-A07F-54846DFAB1DA@ecs-solar.com> References: <42AEB7A8-68B0-4222-A07F-54846DFAB1DA@ecs-solar.com> Message-ID: <209F081A-F6FD-4764-8A8F-F33A3BA85B7D@mavericksolar.com> Tom, You will use all 40 batteries in a 48V system. I am guessing they are 300AH cells, so that would be 48V nominal at 300AH. Absorb will be set to about 66.8Vdc and Float is set to about 58.8. So make sure all of your equipment is ok at those voltages. Midnite Classic works well in this case. I can’t remember to 0% SOC Voltage, but it is lower than normal, so be sure the Samplex is ok with that. Thank you, Maverick > On Jul 26, 2015, at 6:34 PM, Tom Lane wrote: > > I have a friend who has forty ( 40 ) Iron Edison Batteries , he says they are each 1.5 volts and wants to use them for a backup to his aquatics business's . Continuous load 24/7 is only 365 watts with surges to 1200 watts . My guess is that ___# of batteries ( maybe 32 to 36 ? ) can be wire as a 48 volt system ? Any suggestion on charge controllers - Morningstar or MidNite ? . .? A Samplex pure sign wave inverter 2000 watts at 48 volts and an Iota 54 volt battery charger is my guess that it might be the way to power the load - any suggestions . Anyone have experience with Iron Edison .any suggestions appreciated ! Gator tom PS : any suggested websites ? > > Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Jul 26 20:55:06 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2015 17:55:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Iron Edison Batteries In-Reply-To: <42AEB7A8-68B0-4222-A07F-54846DFAB1DA@ecs-solar.com> References: <42AEB7A8-68B0-4222-A07F-54846DFAB1DA@ecs-solar.com> Message-ID: HI Tom, They are considered 1.2v nominal. Charge range is up to 1.7v per cell. For a 24v system usually you pull out 1 cell or 19 cells 19 x 1.7 = 32.3v For a 48, usually 2 or 3 , or 37-38 cells. If you use much less, then the voltage swings really low, if you go more the voltage is too high for most inverters. The Iota isn’t going to charge them up fully with that low a voltage. But I don’t know if that version Iota is adjustable, many of the older ones had a internal pot you could turn up. But heck give it a try and play with it. jay peltz power > On Jul 26, 2015, at 4:34 PM, Tom Lane wrote: > > I have a friend who has forty ( 40 ) Iron Edison Batteries , he says they are each 1.5 volts and wants to use them for a backup to his aquatics business's . Continuous load 24/7 is only 365 watts with surges to 1200 watts . My guess is that ___# of batteries ( maybe 32 to 36 ? ) can be wire as a 48 volt system ? Any suggestion on charge controllers - Morningstar or MidNite ? . .? A Samplex pure sign wave inverter 2000 watts at 48 volts and an Iota 54 volt battery charger is my guess that it might be the way to power the load - any suggestions . Anyone have experience with Iron Edison .any suggestions appreciated ! Gator tom PS : any suggested websites ? > > Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From danbob88 at gmail.com Sun Jul 26 23:11:11 2015 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2015 21:11:11 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Iron Edison Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <42AEB7A8-68B0-4222-A07F-54846DFAB1DA@ecs-solar.com> Message-ID: I made myself a guinea pig on Iron Edison NiFe cells this year, before I try to install them for any customer. I have now about 90 days on them. 1.65 volts per cell charging is what they want and need. PV controllers MPPT type are fine with this. just change the settings (assuming the sun is shining) . Inverter/chargers are not fine, at least not my Magnum OMG! over 1.6v per cell!! Overvoltage! Shut down! So I have rewired battery bank as recommended by Mrf with 9 cells at 1.2v instead of 10 cells. And now with my 10.8v battery bank I get surge low voltage wonky waveform hits from the fridge turning on, etc. that reboot the satellite internet, tv etc. My plan is to add another 1kw of solar here for an increase of 50% and rely more on the incoming PV that can bring it all up to 1.65v per cell rather than the generator that can't do it thanks to the inverter firmware. I think my new NiFe batteries will do just great in the long run. But their charge/discharge behavior is a continuing lesson. And I am SO glad to learn these lessons myself, instead of in front of a critical customer. Dan Fink Buckville Energy IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 6:55 PM, jay wrote: > HI Tom, > > They are considered 1.2v nominal. > > Charge range is up to 1.7v per cell. > For a 24v system usually you pull out 1 cell or 19 cells 19 x 1.7 = 32.3v > For a 48, usually 2 or 3 , or 37-38 cells. > > If you use much less, then the voltage swings really low, if you go more > the voltage is too high for most inverters. > The Iota isn’t going to charge them up fully with that low a voltage. But > I don’t know if that version Iota is adjustable, many of the older ones had > a internal pot you could turn up. > > But heck give it a try and play with it. > > jay > > peltz power > > > > > > On Jul 26, 2015, at 4:34 PM, Tom Lane wrote: > > > > I have a friend who has forty ( 40 ) Iron Edison Batteries , he says > they are each 1.5 volts and wants to use them for a backup to his aquatics > business's . Continuous load 24/7 is only 365 watts with surges to 1200 > watts . My guess is that ___# of batteries ( maybe 32 to 36 ? ) can be wire > as a 48 volt system ? Any suggestion on charge controllers - Morningstar or > MidNite ? . .? A Samplex pure sign wave inverter 2000 watts at 48 volts and > an Iota 54 volt battery charger is my guess that it might be the way to > power the load - any suggestions . Anyone have experience with Iron Edison > .any suggestions appreciated ! Gator tom PS : any suggested websites ? > > > > Sent from my iPad > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Mon Jul 27 09:52:13 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2015 06:52:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island guide request Message-ID: <55B6378C.5050506@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Jul 27 10:47:07 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2015 07:47:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Iron Edison Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <42AEB7A8-68B0-4222-A07F-54846DFAB1DA@ecs-solar.com> Message-ID: Hi dan I'm curious why you opted for NiFe vs lithium? Jay Peltz power. > On Jul 26, 2015, at 8:11 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > > I made myself a guinea pig on Iron Edison NiFe cells this year, before I try to install them for any customer. I have now about 90 days on them. > 1.65 volts per cell charging is what they want and need. PV controllers MPPT type are fine with this. just change the settings (assuming the sun is shining) > . Inverter/chargers are not fine, at least not my Magnum OMG! over 1.6v per cell!! Overvoltage! Shut down! > So I have rewired battery bank as recommended by Mrf with 9 cells at 1.2v instead of 10 cells. And now with my 10.8v battery bank I get surge low voltage wonky waveform hits from the fridge turning on, etc. that reboot the satellite internet, tv etc. > My plan is to add another 1kw of solar here for an increase of 50% and rely more on the incoming PV that can bring it all up to 1.65v per cell rather than the generator that can't do it thanks to the inverter firmware. > I think my new NiFe batteries will do just great in the long run. But their charge/discharge behavior is a continuing lesson. And I am SO glad to learn these lessons myself, instead of in front of a critical customer. > > > > Dan Fink > Buckville Energy > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > >> On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 6:55 PM, jay wrote: >> HI Tom, >> >> They are considered 1.2v nominal. >> >> Charge range is up to 1.7v per cell. >> For a 24v system usually you pull out 1 cell or 19 cells 19 x 1.7 = 32.3v >> For a 48, usually 2 or 3 , or 37-38 cells. >> >> If you use much less, then the voltage swings really low, if you go more the voltage is too high for most inverters. >> The Iota isn’t going to charge them up fully with that low a voltage. But I don’t know if that version Iota is adjustable, many of the older ones had a internal pot you could turn up. >> >> But heck give it a try and play with it. >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> >> >> >> >> > On Jul 26, 2015, at 4:34 PM, Tom Lane wrote: >> > >> > I have a friend who has forty ( 40 ) Iron Edison Batteries , he says they are each 1.5 volts and wants to use them for a backup to his aquatics business's . Continuous load 24/7 is only 365 watts with surges to 1200 watts . My guess is that ___# of batteries ( maybe 32 to 36 ? ) can be wire as a 48 volt system ? Any suggestion on charge controllers - Morningstar or MidNite ? . .? A Samplex pure sign wave inverter 2000 watts at 48 volts and an Iota 54 volt battery charger is my guess that it might be the way to power the load - any suggestions . Anyone have experience with Iron Edison .any suggestions appreciated ! Gator tom PS : any suggested websites ? >> > >> > Sent from my iPad >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Mon Jul 27 11:43:59 2015 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2015 09:43:59 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Iron Edison Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <42AEB7A8-68B0-4222-A07F-54846DFAB1DA@ecs-solar.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay; Price, proven long-term reliability, no high-tech computerized Battery Management System, and finally lots of questions about NiFe from potential prepper clients. A lot of grid-connected folks are best served by a backup generator, but want to have batteries stored in pristine condition in their vault for doomsday 5-20 years from now. A bank of L-16s even on careful float charge will have significantly degraded on the far side of that time frame. "Dry charged" FLA batteries these days are really "moist charged" IE at the factory filled, charged to "form" the plates, and drained. That only gives you an extra 18 months before damage occurs, maybe 3 years with a strict rehab regime afterwards for a couple weeks (thanks to Rolls/Surrette for that tidbet, and to my buddy at the local ATV/jetski/snowmobile/boat store who has to mix up electrolyte and fill moist-charged batteries and put them out on the shelves).(saves hazmat shipping fees) Another advantage I see on NiFe cells is that you can add another string to the battery bank years down the road.....drain and dispose of the electrolyte in the original bank, mix and refill with fresh, and the new string will match the old closely.You can get spare electrolyte powder from the battery mfr packed for long term storage. I made myself a guinea pig on these, but hey, my L-16s were shot after the flood. I'm going to add more PV to help get that 1.65v per cell on a daily basis, and then hopefully add battery #10 back in the string once my PV can maintain that daily, as the inverter/charger refuses to try. Best regards; Dan Fink Buckville Energy IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Mon, Jul 27, 2015 at 8:47 AM, Jay wrote: > Hi dan > > I'm curious why you opted for NiFe vs lithium? > > Jay > Peltz power. > > > > > On Jul 26, 2015, at 8:11 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > > I made myself a guinea pig on Iron Edison NiFe cells this year, before I > try to install them for any customer. I have now about 90 days on them. > 1.65 volts per cell charging is what they want and need. PV controllers > MPPT type are fine with this. just change the settings (assuming the sun is > shining) > . Inverter/chargers are not fine, at least not my Magnum OMG! over 1.6v > per cell!! Overvoltage! Shut down! > So I have rewired battery bank as recommended by Mrf with 9 cells at 1.2v > instead of 10 cells. And now with my 10.8v battery bank I get surge low > voltage wonky waveform hits from the fridge turning on, etc. that reboot > the satellite internet, tv etc. > My plan is to add another 1kw of solar here for an increase of 50% and > rely more on the incoming PV that can bring it all up to 1.65v per cell > rather than the generator that can't do it thanks to the inverter firmware. > I think my new NiFe batteries will do just great in the long run. But > their charge/discharge behavior is a continuing lesson. And I am SO glad to > learn these lessons myself, instead of in front of a critical customer. > > > > Dan Fink > Buckville Energy > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > > On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 6:55 PM, jay wrote: > >> HI Tom, >> >> They are considered 1.2v nominal. >> >> Charge range is up to 1.7v per cell. >> For a 24v system usually you pull out 1 cell or 19 cells 19 x 1.7 = 32.3v >> For a 48, usually 2 or 3 , or 37-38 cells. >> >> If you use much less, then the voltage swings really low, if you go more >> the voltage is too high for most inverters. >> The Iota isn’t going to charge them up fully with that low a voltage. >> But I don’t know if that version Iota is adjustable, many of the older ones >> had a internal pot you could turn up. >> >> But heck give it a try and play with it. >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> >> >> >> >> > On Jul 26, 2015, at 4:34 PM, Tom Lane wrote: >> > >> > I have a friend who has forty ( 40 ) Iron Edison Batteries , he says >> they are each 1.5 volts and wants to use them for a backup to his aquatics >> business's . Continuous load 24/7 is only 365 watts with surges to 1200 >> watts . My guess is that ___# of batteries ( maybe 32 to 36 ? ) can be wire >> as a 48 volt system ? Any suggestion on charge controllers - Morningstar or >> MidNite ? . .? A Samplex pure sign wave inverter 2000 watts at 48 volts and >> an Iota 54 volt battery charger is my guess that it might be the way to >> power the load - any suggestions . Anyone have experience with Iron Edison >> .any suggestions appreciated ! Gator tom PS : any suggested websites ? >> > >> > Sent from my iPad >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Jul 27 11:15:09 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2015 05:15:09 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Iron Edison Batteries Message-ID: WrenchesI have had good experiences with these batteries and with the same issues with the magnum on 12 volts, don't seam to have any issues with my 48 volt systems. We did double up the cables to reduce the high load (overdriving) the radians with no issues. It's just the cost, but it should be the last battery you buyJerry Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Jay Date: 07/27/2015 4:47 AM (GMT-10:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Iron Edison Batteries Hi dan I'm curious why you opted for NiFe vs lithium? JayPeltz power.  On Jul 26, 2015, at 8:11 PM, Dan Fink wrote: I made myself a guinea pig on Iron Edison NiFe cells this year, before I try to install them for any customer. I have now about 90 days on them.1.65 volts per cell charging is what they want and need. PV controllers MPPT type are fine with this. just change the settings (assuming the sun is shining) . Inverter/chargers are not fine, at least not my Magnum OMG! over 1.6v per cell!! Overvoltage! Shut down!So I have rewired battery bank as recommended by Mrf with 9 cells at 1.2v instead of 10 cells. And now with my 10.8v battery bank I get surge low voltage wonky waveform hits from the fridge turning on, etc. that reboot  the satellite internet, tv etc.My plan is to add another 1kw of solar here for an increase of 50% and rely more on the incoming PV that can bring it all up to 1.65v per cell rather than the generator that can't do it thanks to the inverter firmware. I think my new NiFe batteries will do just great in the long run. But their charge/discharge behavior is a continuing lesson. And I am SO glad to learn these lessons myself, instead of in front of a critical customer.  Dan FinkBuckville EnergyIREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional~ Small Wind InstallerNABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342   On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 6:55 PM, jay wrote: HI Tom, They are considered 1.2v nominal. Charge range is up to 1.7v per cell. For a 24v system usually you pull out 1 cell or 19 cells 19 x 1.7 = 32.3v For a 48, usually 2 or 3 , or 37-38 cells. If you use much less, then the voltage swings really low, if you go more the voltage is too high for most inverters. The Iota isn’t going to charge them up fully with that low a voltage.  But I don’t know if that version Iota is adjustable, many of the older ones had a internal pot you could turn up. But heck give it a try and play with it. jay peltz power > On Jul 26, 2015, at 4:34 PM, Tom Lane wrote: > > I have a friend who has forty ( 40 ) Iron Edison Batteries , he says they are each 1.5 volts and wants to use them for a backup to his aquatics business's . Continuous load 24/7 is only 365 watts with surges to 1200 watts . My guess is that ___# of batteries ( maybe 32 to 36 ? ) can be wire as a 48 volt system ? Any suggestion on charge controllers - Morningstar or MidNite ? . .? A Samplex pure sign wave inverter 2000 watts at 48 volts and an Iota 54 volt battery charger is my guess that it might be the way to power the load - any suggestions  . Anyone have experience with Iron Edison .any suggestions appreciated !  Gator tom PS : any suggested websites ? > > Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Mon Jul 27 11:34:22 2015 From: Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com (Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2015 11:34:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC conductor line loss numbers In-Reply-To: <20150725194556.41D93109A8@che.dreamhost.com> References: <20150725194556.41D93109A8@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Hi: When deciding on voltage drops and otherwise working out the design of a solar system, one thing that needs careful attention is to make sure that the array voltage does not drop below a level at which the inverter cannot produce full power. This voltage will occur when the inverter is working at full input current such as a hypothetical 3000 W inverter which can handle a maximum of 10 Amps of input current to produce its full rated 3000 Watts (10Amps @ 300 Vdc). At any voltage less than 300 Vdc, the power will be limited by the maximum 10 Amps. For example at 290 Vdc you get 2.9 kW, 280 Vdc you get 2.8kW, and so on. Even if the inverter can operate down to 100 Vdc, you don't want to be anywhere near there, especially not during the midday hours as that will hurt peak power production, a lot. In this case -0.3% loss for every volt below 300Vdc. Identifying this voltage for a particular inverter may not however be straightforward due to wide variety of wording used in specifying ratings. Wording such as, 1. operating voltage range 2. full power operating voltage range 3. MPPT operating voltage range 4. minimum operating voltage 5. minimum MPPT operating voltage 6. rated operating voltage range 7. Rated MPPT operating voltage range 8. starting voltage 9. nominal operating voltage range 10. maximum input current 11. minimum input voltage 12. minimum DC voltage 13. nominal DC input current 14. maximum operating DC input current 15. maximum continuous operating DC input current 17......... When looking for the voltage below which you don't want go, look for the following: 1. The maximum operating input current 2. The minimum MPPT operating voltage Then make sure the array can produce at least that much voltage and current when its really hot when the resistance of all the wires is more than at room temperature. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Glenn Burt To: RE-wrenches , Date: 07/25/2015 12:46 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] DC conductor line loss numbers Sent by: "RE-wrenches" You would want to confirm hot temp PV circuit values with chosen Vdrop to ensure the irrelevant value doesn't drop you out of the inverters' operational limit, however. Sincerely, Glenn Burt Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. From: Chris Mason Sent: ‎7/‎25/‎2015 15:20 To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] DC conductor line loss numbers It should be noted that the NEC recommendations for feeder circuits are to do with acceptable voltages at the load, i.e., you do not want your 208V equipment running on 200V. PV circuits are not feeder circuits, voltage drop is irrelevant. Power loss may be relevant, but only in terms of economic value. If it is preferable to add more PV and lose 10% of the power, as long as there are no issues of heat and potential fire, why shouldn't you be able to make that decision? As PV gets cheaper, replacing cables costing $10,000 to save $10 a year does not make sense. The NEC rules on voltage drop were never designed for PV source circuits. On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 11:52 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Wrenches I have 3 engineering firms and one in-house engineer that only use 1% because in the NEC it is stated as a suggestion and not a requirement but they take this as a must not exceed instead, I cant change CC as it will be remotely monitored via the Outback connection, the Engineers refuse to make any changes to the 1% and still stamp the drawings. This is what I have found in my research it came from Mike Holt Contrary to common belief, the NEC generally doesn't require you to size conductors to accommodate voltage drop. It merely suggests in the Fine Print Notes to 210.19(A), 215.2(A)(4), 230.31(C), and 310.15(A)(1) that you adjust for voltage drop when sizing conductors. It's important for you to remember that Fine Print Notes are recommendations, not requirements [90.5(C)]. The NEC recommends that the maximum combined voltage drop for both the feeder and branch circuit shouldn't exceed 5%, and the maximum on the feeder or branch circuit shouldn't exceed 3%. This recommendation is a performance issue, not a safety issue. Jerry On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 11:28 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems < larry at starlightsolar.com> wrote: Jerry, A long distance wire run is practical now days using a high voltage controller. Have a look at Schneider and Morningstar 600Vdc controllers. Not sure what you mean "by nothing can be changed but wire size” but you will have to rewire the strings into series and protect the wire run. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jul 22, 2015, at 10:37 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Wrenches Some time back there was discussion on the conductor size and efficiency rating requirement for long DC runs. What I am looking at is this, 400 feet of MCM 400 to keep the line loss at or below 1% per NEC code for an off grid application, cost vs return is not acceptable. 2/0 is less than 2.5% and the cost is far less. Specs are 4 strings of 3, 250 watt modules feeding one Outback FM 80 charge controller. There are lots of things I can do like SMA instread, or 200 VDC charge controller but nothing can be changed except the wire gauge. Does anyone recall a thread with this topic. thoughts ?? Jerry ________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com [The entire original message is not included.] ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Jul 27 14:08:51 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2015 08:08:51 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC conductor line loss numbers Message-ID: Wrenchesthe VD is 105 VDC into  a charge controller, the engineer is looking good at it like it a grid tie running at wide open all the time, he will not listen to sugestions, that's the problem I haveJerry Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Date: 07/27/2015 5:34 AM (GMT-10:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] DC conductor line loss numbers Hi: When deciding on voltage drops and otherwise working out the design of a solar system, one thing that needs careful attention is to make sure that the array voltage does not drop below a level at which the inverter cannot produce full power. This voltage will occur when the inverter is working at full input current such as a hypothetical 3000 W inverter which can handle a maximum of 10 Amps of input current to produce its full rated 3000 Watts (10Amps @ 300 Vdc).   At any voltage less than 300 Vdc, the power will be limited by the maximum 10 Amps.  For example at 290 Vdc you get 2.9 kW, 280 Vdc you get 2.8kW, and so on. Even if the inverter can operate down to 100 Vdc, you don't want to be anywhere near there, especially not during the midday hours as that will hurt peak power production, a lot.  In this case -0.3% loss for every volt below 300Vdc. Identifying this voltage for a particular inverter may not however be straightforward due to wide variety of wording used in specifying ratings.  Wording such as, 1. operating voltage range 2. full power operating voltage range 3. MPPT operating voltage range 4. minimum operating voltage 5. minimum MPPT operating voltage 6. rated operating voltage range 7. Rated MPPT operating voltage range 8. starting voltage 9. nominal operating voltage range 10. maximum input current 11. minimum input voltage 12. minimum DC voltage 13. nominal DC input current 14. maximum operating DC input current 15. maximum continuous operating DC input current 17......... When looking for the voltage below which you don't want go, look for the following: 1. The maximum operating input current 2. The minimum MPPT operating voltage Then make sure the array can produce at least that much voltage and current when its really hot when the resistance of all the wires is more than at room temperature. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen  |   Schneider Electric   |  Xantrex Brand  |   CANADA  |   Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528  |   Tech Support: 800-670-0707  |   Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com  |   Site: www.Xantrex.com  |   Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Glenn Burt To: RE-wrenches , -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter.parrish at calsolareng.com Tue Jul 28 01:21:14 2015 From: peter.parrish at calsolareng.com (Peter Parrish) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2015 22:21:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof In-Reply-To: References: <42AEB7A8-68B0-4222-A07F-54846DFAB1DA@ecs-solar.com> Message-ID: <001501d0c8f5$39da1280$ad8e3780$@parrish@calsolareng.com> I recently read a short piece that caught me up short, and I quote: “The fast dropping cost of solar, while a huge boon to the adoption of solar PV, has counter-intuitively altered design parameters. No longer is the north-facing roof considered unusable because limited application in less-than optimal orientations can still show a positive net benefit. Arrays are thus designed now with elements or sub-arrays in these locations, increasing overall kW installation while reducing the energy production per capacity installed. This might have been anticipated based on sheer economic analysis from a users perspective, but so long has solar been expensive that these less optimal orientations were never seriously considered.” I doubt that the individual who wrote this piece came to these conclusions him/herself. Does anyone know of a recent article that argued this perspective? Is this an emerging design practice? If so, I’d like to know more about it. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave., Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Jul 28 03:28:31 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2015 21:28:31 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof Message-ID: WrenchesI see this working south of the tropic of cancer but at 1000 watts per meter squared tilted north might work for a month a year but I don't think the tax credits were proposed for poor performance module installations. I see enphase annual  readings prove the point. Jerry Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Peter Parrish Date: 07/27/2015 7:21 PM (GMT-10:00) To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof I recently read a short piece that caught me up short, and I quote: “The fast dropping cost of solar, while a huge boon to the adoption of solar PV, has counter-intuitively altered design parameters. No longer is the north-facing roof considered unusable because limited application in less-than optimal orientations can still show a positive net benefit. Arrays are thus designed now with elements or sub-arrays in these locations, increasing overall kW installation while reducing the energy production per capacity installed. This might have been anticipated based on sheer economic analysis from a users perspective, but so long has solar been expensive that these less optimal orientations were never seriously considered.” I doubt that the individual who wrote this piece came to these conclusions him/herself. Does anyone know of a recent article that argued this perspective? Is this an emerging design practice? If so, I’d like to know more about it.  -          Peter  Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D.President, SolarGnosis1107 Fair Oaks Ave., Suite 351South Pasadena, CA 91030(323) 839-6108petertor at pobox.com  -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Tue Jul 28 10:31:11 2015 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2015 08:31:11 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof In-Reply-To: <55b72da7.02e8420a.3e43.ffffcf51SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <42AEB7A8-68B0-4222-A07F-54846DFAB1DA@ecs-solar.com> <55b72da7.02e8420a.3e43.ffffcf51SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Within the last year a fairly large (~100-130kW?) system was installed on a 4-sided building in Alberta that had PV installed on all four vertical walls. Each side's PV system operating independently, of course. We were not involved in this project and i'm not totally up to speed on the why's, how's and expected productions and so on... but i know the designer and i'm pretty sure he already has a good idea what range the production output of each different facing wall will fall in. I can inquire if he has any articles or insight he would be willing to share with this group. *Benn Kilburn * CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc 6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7 P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com [image: email] [image: facebook] [image: twitter] [image: linkedin] [image: google] [image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal] On Mon, Jul 27, 2015 at 11:21 PM, Peter Parrish < peter.parrish at calsolareng.com> wrote: > I recently read a short piece that caught me up short, and I quote: > > “The fast dropping cost of solar, while a huge boon to the adoption of > solar PV, has counter-intuitively altered design parameters. No longer is > the north-facing roof considered unusable because limited application in > less-than optimal orientations can still show a positive net benefit. > Arrays are thus designed now with elements or sub-arrays in these > locations, increasing overall kW installation while reducing the energy > production per capacity installed. This might have been anticipated based > on sheer economic analysis from a users perspective, but so long has solar > been expensive that these less optimal orientations were never seriously > considered.” > > > > I doubt that the individual who wrote this piece came to these conclusions > him/herself. Does anyone know of a recent article that argued this > perspective? Is this an emerging design practice? If so, I’d like to know > more about it. > > > > - Peter > > > > Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. > > President, SolarGnosis > > 1107 Fair Oaks Ave., Suite 351 > > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > > (323) 839-6108 > > petertor at pobox.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Jul 28 10:43:37 2015 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2015 07:43:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9d09df0cb4a68b19b72e6bec215fb274@mail.gmail.com> I think the point of view Peter shared has more to do with lower sloped North facing or other non-ideal orientations. The proof is in the pudding – just simulate the production and utility bill offset and see if the proposed orientation makes sense financially. We haven’t done any North facing arrays (yet?) but we have a few that are North-West in orientation and they are working as projected. I think a side question that this poses is whether, for example, it makes sense to install a reverse tilt on a North facing roof or just mount the panels flush and install more of them. My calculations show that the reverse tilt is still a better economical choice but it is no longer as cut and dry as it once was when modules were more expensive. Of course reverse tilt arrays pose structural engineering and aesthetic considerations so we really try to shy away from them. Best, August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *jerrysgarage01 *Sent:* Tuesday, July 28, 2015 12:29 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof Wrenches I see this working south of the tropic of cancer but at 1000 watts per meter squared tilted north might work for a month a year but I don't think the tax credits were proposed for poor performance module installations. I see enphase annual readings prove the point. Jerry Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Peter Parrish Date: 07/27/2015 7:21 PM (GMT-10:00) To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof I recently read a short piece that caught me up short, and I quote: “The fast dropping cost of solar, while a huge boon to the adoption of solar PV, has counter-intuitively altered design parameters. No longer is the north-facing roof considered unusable because limited application in less-than optimal orientations can still show a positive net benefit. Arrays are thus designed now with elements or sub-arrays in these locations, increasing overall kW installation while reducing the energy production per capacity installed. This might have been anticipated based on sheer economic analysis from a users perspective, but so long has solar been expensive that these less optimal orientations were never seriously considered.” I doubt that the individual who wrote this piece came to these conclusions him/herself. Does anyone know of a recent article that argued this perspective? Is this an emerging design practice? If so, I’d like to know more about it. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave., Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Jul 28 10:46:01 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2015 10:46:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof In-Reply-To: <55b72da7.4b41420a.d4dca.33e3SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <42AEB7A8-68B0-4222-A07F-54846DFAB1DA@ecs-solar.com> <55b72da7.4b41420a.d4dca.33e3SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: We get this question all the time, mostly due to aesthetic concerns. The location is obviously a huge factor in this decision, but the mounting pitch is also very important. I did a PVWATTS-based study recently based on our local area, and the results are here: http://floridasolardesigngroup.com/solar-electricity-output-based-on-tilt-and-orientation/ Other related resources: http://floridasolardesigngroup.com/pitch-solar-panels-on-my-roof-is-it-necessary/ http://floridasolardesigngroup.com/can-i-put-solar-panels-on-my-north-roof-in-southwest-florida/ The bottom line is that the marginal cost of adding solar panels to a north roof may be completely viable in some scenarios, and even a completely north facing array in others. It often depends on the investment requirements of the buyer. I can see benefits to off-grid systems, too, where production on even a north vertical wall can provide critical power at certain times of day at certain latitudes. If aligning production with consumption is important in a situation, every pitch and azimuth is on the table for analysis. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 1:21 AM, Peter Parrish < peter.parrish at calsolareng.com> wrote: > I recently read a short piece that caught me up short, and I quote: > > “The fast dropping cost of solar, while a huge boon to the adoption of > solar PV, has counter-intuitively altered design parameters. No longer is > the north-facing roof considered unusable because limited application in > less-than optimal orientations can still show a positive net benefit. > Arrays are thus designed now with elements or sub-arrays in these > locations, increasing overall kW installation while reducing the energy > production per capacity installed. This might have been anticipated based > on sheer economic analysis from a users perspective, but so long has solar > been expensive that these less optimal orientations were never seriously > considered.” > > > > I doubt that the individual who wrote this piece came to these conclusions > him/herself. Does anyone know of a recent article that argued this > perspective? Is this an emerging design practice? If so, I’d like to know > more about it. > > > > - Peter > > > > Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. > > President, SolarGnosis > > 1107 Fair Oaks Ave., Suite 351 > > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > > (323) 839-6108 > > petertor at pobox.com > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Tue Jul 28 11:03:33 2015 From: Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com (Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2015 11:03:33 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof In-Reply-To: <001501d0c8f5$39da1280$ad8e3780$@parrish@calsolareng.com> References: <42AEB7A8-68B0-4222-A07F-54846DFAB1DA@ecs-solar.com> <001501d0c8f5$39da1280$ad8e3780$@parrish@calsolareng.com> Message-ID: I did a slide on the effect of North facing modules. For even a fairly aggressive rotation North as shown, the effect is "only" a 50% reduction. The questions of whether or not to do it, are, - is the mounting structure simpler, lower cost - security against wind - can I put a larger array on the roof (typically yes, if you make back to back pyramid shaped structures) - overall, what is the cost versus benefit JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: "Peter Parrish" To: "'RE-wrenches'" , Date: 07/28/2015 12:22 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof Sent by: "RE-wrenches" I recently read a short piece that caught me up short, and I quote: “The fast dropping cost of solar, while a huge boon to the adoption of solar PV, has counter-intuitively altered design parameters. No longer is the north-facing roof considered unusable because limited application in less-than optimal orientations can still show a positive net benefit. Arrays are thus designed now with elements or sub-arrays in these locations, increasing overall kW installation while reducing the energy production per capacity installed. This might have been anticipated based on sheer economic analysis from a users perspective, but so long has solar been expensive that these less optimal orientations were never seriously considered.” I doubt that the individual who wrote this piece came to these conclusions him/herself. Does anyone know of a recent article that argued this perspective? Is this an emerging design practice? If so, I’d like to know more about it. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave., Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Jul 28 12:15:40 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2015 12:15:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof In-Reply-To: References: <42AEB7A8-68B0-4222-A07F-54846DFAB1DA@ecs-solar.com> Message-ID: Maybe I'm a bit slow, but I don't understand this slide at all. This might make sense for expected momentary power output at a particular static sun position (perpendicular to the south panel face) under test conditions, but it doesn't relate to real world energy output with weather and sun position throughout each day relative to the panels. Can you explain further what this slide is intended to show? Jason On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 11:03 AM, wrote: > I did a slide on the effect of North facing modules. For even a fairly > aggressive rotation North as shown, the effect is "only" a 50% reduction. > > The questions of whether or not to do it, are, > > - is the mounting structure simpler, lower cost > - security against wind > - can I put a larger array on the roof (typically yes, if you make back > to back pyramid shaped structures) > - overall, what is the cost versus benefit > > JARMO > > _____________________________________________________________________________________ > > * Jarmo Venalainen* | * Schneider Electric ** | Xantrex Brand* | > *CANADA* | *Sales Application Engineer* > * Phone:* +604-422-2528 | *Tech Support:* 800-670-0707 | *Mobile:* > +604-505-0291 > * Email:* *jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com* > | *Site:** www.Xantrex.com* > | *Address:* 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC > V5G4M1 > > > > > > *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail > > > > From: "Peter Parrish" To: "'RE-wrenches'" > , Date: 07/28/2015 12:22 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] > Using the North Facing Roof Sent by: "RE-wrenches" < > re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org> > ------------------------------ > > > > I recently read a short piece that caught me up short, and I quote: > > “The fast dropping cost of solar, while a huge boon to the adoption of > solar PV, has counter-intuitively altered design parameters. No longer is > the north-facing roof considered unusable because limited application in > less-than optimal orientations can still show a positive net benefit. > Arrays are thus designed now with elements or sub-arrays in these > locations, increasing overall kW installation while reducing the energy > production per capacity installed. This might have been anticipated based > on sheer economic analysis from a users perspective, but so long has solar > been expensive that these less optimal orientations were never seriously > considered.” > > I doubt that the individual who wrote this piece came to these conclusions > him/herself. Does anyone know of a recent article that argued this > perspective? Is this an emerging design practice? If so, I’d like to know > more about it. > > - Peter > > Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. > President, SolarGnosis > 1107 Fair Oaks Ave., Suite 351 > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > (323) 839-6108 > petertor at pobox.com > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 1869 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 4274 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 40194 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 1897 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 7678 bytes Desc: not available URL: From billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 28 12:24:59 2015 From: billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net (billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2015 09:24:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof In-Reply-To: References: <42AEB7A8-68B0-4222-A07F-54846DFAB1DA@ecs-solar.com> <001501d0c8f5$39da1280$ad8e3780$@parrish@calsolareng.com> Message-ID: <021601d0c951$f59e7180$e0db5480$@sbcglobal.net> Jarmo, The sun’s geometry is not nearly that simple. To understand the impact of north-facing arrays, you have to perform a simulation. PV:WATTS does this just fine and it is easy to show that a 18-degreed North-facing tilt produces 75% of a perfect 30-degree south-facing array. Far more than your assumption of 50%. To compare 15-degrees South to 15-degrees North, the numbers are slightly better at 77%. We are going to see a lot of north-facing arrays once people understand that low tilt angles are very forgiving on North slopes. Steep slopes are a totally different story and you have to run the numbers…. Bill. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 8:04 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof I did a slide on the effect of North facing modules. For even a fairly aggressive rotation North as shown, the effect is "only" a 50% reduction. The questions of whether or not to do it, are, - is the mounting structure simpler, lower cost - security against wind - can I put a larger array on the roof (typically yes, if you make back to back pyramid shaped structures) - overall, what is the cost versus benefit JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: "Peter Parrish" > To: "'RE-wrenches'" >, Date: 07/28/2015 12:22 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof Sent by: "RE-wrenches" > _____ I recently read a short piece that caught me up short, and I quote: “The fast dropping cost of solar, while a huge boon to the adoption of solar PV, has counter-intuitively altered design parameters. No longer is the north-facing roof considered unusable because limited application in less-than optimal orientations can still show a positive net benefit. Arrays are thus designed now with elements or sub-arrays in these locations, increasing overall kW installation while reducing the energy production per capacity installed. This might have been anticipated based on sheer economic analysis from a users perspective, but so long has solar been expensive that these less optimal orientations were never seriously considered.” I doubt that the individual who wrote this piece came to these conclusions him/herself. Does anyone know of a recent article that argued this perspective? Is this an emerging design practice? If so, I’d like to know more about it. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave., Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image007.gif Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Tue Jul 28 12:41:20 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2015 10:41:20 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof In-Reply-To: <001501d0c8f5$39da1280$ad8e3780$@parrish@calsolareng.com> References: <42AEB7A8-68B0-4222-A07F-54846DFAB1DA@ecs-solar.com> <001501d0c8f5$39da1280$ad8e3780$@parrish@calsolareng.com> Message-ID: In Yuma, AZ, north facing modules will have direct sunlight for small part of the year. In the picture, look at the yellow area above the East-West line. Thats direct sunlight from the north. The green top line in the picture shows summer solstice showing sunlight from sunrise to about 0930 and from 1530 to sunset. The energy harvested during those hours will be tiny compared to the peak sun hours on the south side. The angle of incidence will also reduce the total power generated during those hours. The thin brown middle line is the equinox. By then, there is no direct sunlight on the north side. I can not see any benefit in AZ even at todays low prices. Now, if I were building in Quetzaltenango, Guatemala, that would be a different story. But then again, I would have to clean off the volcanic ash each morning. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems chart came from http://www.gaisma.com/en/ On Jul 27, 2015, at 11:21 PM, Peter Parrish wrote: I recently read a short piece that caught me up short, and I quote: “The fast dropping cost of solar, while a huge boon to the adoption of solar PV, has counter-intuitively altered design parameters. No longer is the north-facing roof considered unusable because limited application in less-than optimal orientations can still show a positive net benefit. Arrays are thus designed now with elements or sub-arrays in these locations, increasing overall kW installation while reducing the energy production per capacity installed. This might have been anticipated based on sheer economic analysis from a users perspective, but so long has solar been expensive that these less optimal orientations were never seriously considered.” I doubt that the individual who wrote this piece came to these conclusions him/herself. Does anyone know of a recent article that argued this perspective? Is this an emerging design practice? If so, I’d like to know more about it. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave., Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2015-07-28 at 10.18.43 AM.png Type: image/png Size: 31020 bytes Desc: not available URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Tue Jul 28 12:48:24 2015 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2015 10:48:24 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof In-Reply-To: <021601d0c951$f59e7180$e0db5480$@sbcglobal.net> References: <42AEB7A8-68B0-4222-A07F-54846DFAB1DA@ecs-solar.com> <021601d0c951$f59e7180$e0db5480$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: The analysis of 50% of south facing production is too simplistic; running some modeling shows that, depending on the latitude, the difference can be much smaller, approaching 25% less for the north facing. I think this layout could become more common especially on low slope commercial roofs, where the north facing module would occupy space that was already unused due to interrow shading. Of course the closer to the equator the less difference between production of the north and south arrays...and you better be careful when stringing them in series so as not to mix N and S facing..plus filling in all those gaps between rows could make servicing the array a bit problematic! Cheers, Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 PV Curriculum Developer and Instructor Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 10:24 AM, wrote: > Jarmo, > > > > The sun’s geometry is not nearly that simple. To understand the impact of > north-facing arrays, you have to perform a simulation. PV:WATTS does this > just fine and it is easy to show that a 18-degreed North-facing tilt > produces 75% of a perfect 30-degree south-facing array. Far more than your > assumption of 50%. > > > > To compare 15-degrees South to 15-degrees North, the numbers are slightly > better at 77%. We are going to see a lot of north-facing arrays once people > understand that low tilt angles are very forgiving on North slopes. Steep > slopes are a totally different story and you have to run the numbers…. > > > > Bill. > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 28, 2015 8:04 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof > > > > I did a slide on the effect of North facing modules. For even a fairly > aggressive rotation North as shown, the effect is "only" a 50% reduction. > > The questions of whether or not to do it, are, > > - is the mounting structure simpler, lower cost > - security against wind > - can I put a larger array on the roof (typically yes, if you make back > to back pyramid shaped structures) > - overall, what is the cost versus benefit > > JARMO > > _____________________________________________________________________________________ > > *Jarmo Venalainen* | * Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand* | > *CANADA* | *Sales Application Engineer* > *Phone:* +604-422-2528 | *Tech Support:* 800-670-0707 | *Mobile:* > +604-505-0291 > *Email:* jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | *Site:* > www.Xantrex.com | *Address:* 3700 Gilmore > Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail > > > From: > > "Peter Parrish" > > To: > > "'RE-wrenches'" , > > Date: > > 07/28/2015 12:22 AM > > Subject: > > [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof > > Sent by: > > "RE-wrenches" > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > I recently read a short piece that caught me up short, and I quote: > > “The fast dropping cost of solar, while a huge boon to the adoption of > solar PV, has counter-intuitively altered design parameters. No longer is > the north-facing roof considered unusable because limited application in > less-than optimal orientations can still show a positive net benefit. > Arrays are thus designed now with elements or sub-arrays in these > locations, increasing overall kW installation while reducing the energy > production per capacity installed. This might have been anticipated based > on sheer economic analysis from a users perspective, but so long has solar > been expensive that these less optimal orientations were never seriously > considered.” > > I doubt that the individual who wrote this piece came to these conclusions > him/herself. Does anyone know of a recent article that argued this > perspective? Is this an emerging design practice? If so, I’d like to know > more about it. > > - Peter > > Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. > President, SolarGnosis > 1107 Fair Oaks Ave., Suite 351 > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > (323) 839-6108 > petertor at pobox.com > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. > ______________________________________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > ------------------------------ > [image: Avast logo] > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 7678 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Tue Jul 28 13:42:50 2015 From: Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com (Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2015 10:42:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof In-Reply-To: References: <42AEB7A8-68B0-4222-A07F-54846DFAB1DA@ecs-solar.com> <021601d0c951$f59e7180$e0db5480$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Hi: Granted that the description is very simple, but that is the intent. The essence of it is that the "loss" for small variations in angle of incidence is approximately bounded by, (less than), the sin of the angle between the orientations of two panels/arrays in question. 10 degrees ---> minus 17% 20 degrees ---> minus 33% 30 degrees ---> minus 50% If you go through the detailed math and take into account atmospheric effects, especially when the sun is near the horizons, temperature, location, weather, etc., the result will vary, but will not be worse than the sin of the angle. I'll draw out better picture with more detail for Vancouver. We're at a fairly high latitude, so overall array orientation is a more sensitive factor than farther south. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Brian Mehalic To: RE-wrenches , Date: 07/28/2015 09:48 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof Sent by: "RE-wrenches" The analysis of 50% of south facing production is too simplistic; running some modeling shows that, depending on the latitude, the difference can be much smaller, approaching 25% less for the north facing. I think this layout could become more common especially on low slope commercial roofs, where the north facing module would occupy space that was already unused due to interrow shading. Of course the closer to the equator the less difference between production of the north and south arrays...and you better be careful when stringing them in series so as not to mix N and S facing..plus filling in all those gaps between rows could make servicing the array a bit problematic! Cheers, Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 PV Curriculum Developer and Instructor Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 10:24 AM, wrote: Jarmo, The sun’s geometry is not nearly that simple. To understand the impact of north-facing arrays, you have to perform a simulation. PV:WATTS does this just fine and it is easy to show that a 18-degreed North-facing tilt produces 75% of a perfect 30-degree south-facing array. Far more than your assumption of 50%. To compare 15-degrees South to 15-degrees North, the numbers are slightly better at 77%. We are going to see a lot of north-facing arrays once people understand that low tilt angles are very forgiving on North slopes. Steep slopes are a totally different story and you have to run the numbers…. Bill. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 8:04 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof I did a slide on the effect of North facing modules. For even a fairly aggressive rotation North as shown, the effect is "only" a 50% reduction. The questions of whether or not to do it, are, - is the mounting structure simpler, lower cost - security against wind - can I put a larger array on the roof (typically yes, if you make back to back pyramid shaped structures) - overall, what is the cost versus benefit JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: "Peter Parrish" To: "'RE-wrenches'" , Date: 07/28/2015 12:22 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof Sent by: "RE-wrenches" I recently read a short piece that caught me up short, and I quote: “The fast dropping cost of solar, while a huge boon to the adoption of solar PV, has counter-intuitively altered design parameters. No longer is the north-facing roof considered unusable because limited application in less-than optimal orientations can still show a positive net benefit. Arrays are thus designed now with elements or sub-arrays in these locations, increasing overall kW installation while reducing the energy production per capacity installed. This might have been anticipated based on sheer economic analysis from a users perspective, but so long has solar been expensive that these less optimal orientations were never seriously considered.” I doubt that the individual who wrote this piece came to these conclusions him/herself. Does anyone know of a recent article that argued this perspective? Is this an emerging design practice? If so, I’d like to know more about it. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave., Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Tue Jul 28 13:50:00 2015 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2015 13:50:00 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof In-Reply-To: <021601d0c951$f59e7180$e0db5480$@sbcglobal.net> References: <42AEB7A8-68B0-4222-A07F-54846DFAB1DA@ecs-solar.com> <021601d0c951$f59e7180$e0db5480$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: In the Caribbean, low tilt roofs that face North can work very well, we (16 degrees) are below the Tropic of Cancer (23 degrees) and the sun is in the North for much of the year. On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 12:24 PM, wrote: > Jarmo, > > > > The sun’s geometry is not nearly that simple. To understand the impact of > north-facing arrays, you have to perform a simulation. PV:WATTS does this > just fine and it is easy to show that a 18-degreed North-facing tilt > produces 75% of a perfect 30-degree south-facing array. Far more than your > assumption of 50%. > > > > To compare 15-degrees South to 15-degrees North, the numbers are slightly > better at 77%. We are going to see a lot of north-facing arrays once people > understand that low tilt angles are very forgiving on North slopes. Steep > slopes are a totally different story and you have to run the numbers…. > > > > Bill. > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 28, 2015 8:04 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof > > > > I did a slide on the effect of North facing modules. For even a fairly > aggressive rotation North as shown, the effect is "only" a 50% reduction. > > The questions of whether or not to do it, are, > > - is the mounting structure simpler, lower cost > - security against wind > - can I put a larger array on the roof (typically yes, if you make back > to back pyramid shaped structures) > - overall, what is the cost versus benefit > > JARMO > > _____________________________________________________________________________________ > > *Jarmo Venalainen* | * Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand* | > *CANADA* | *Sales Application Engineer* > *Phone:* +604-422-2528 | *Tech Support:* 800-670-0707 | *Mobile:* > +604-505-0291 > *Email:* jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | *Site:* > www.Xantrex.com | *Address:* 3700 Gilmore > Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail > > > From: > > "Peter Parrish" > > To: > > "'RE-wrenches'" , > > Date: > > 07/28/2015 12:22 AM > > Subject: > > [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof > > Sent by: > > "RE-wrenches" > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > I recently read a short piece that caught me up short, and I quote: > > “The fast dropping cost of solar, while a huge boon to the adoption of > solar PV, has counter-intuitively altered design parameters. No longer is > the north-facing roof considered unusable because limited application in > less-than optimal orientations can still show a positive net benefit. > Arrays are thus designed now with elements or sub-arrays in these > locations, increasing overall kW installation while reducing the energy > production per capacity installed. This might have been anticipated based > on sheer economic analysis from a users perspective, but so long has solar > been expensive that these less optimal orientations were never seriously > considered.” > > I doubt that the individual who wrote this piece came to these conclusions > him/herself. Does anyone know of a recent article that argued this > perspective? Is this an emerging design practice? If so, I’d like to know > more about it. > > - Peter > > Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. > President, SolarGnosis > 1107 Fair Oaks Ave., Suite 351 > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > (323) 839-6108 > petertor at pobox.com > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. > ______________________________________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > ------------------------------ > [image: Avast logo] > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image006.gif Type: image/gif Size: 1897 bytes Desc: not available URL: From William.White at rgsenergy.com Tue Jul 28 14:23:41 2015 From: William.White at rgsenergy.com (Will White) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2015 18:23:41 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof In-Reply-To: References: <42AEB7A8-68B0-4222-A07F-54846DFAB1DA@ecs-solar.com> <021601d0c951$f59e7180$e0db5480$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: I did a quick simulation using PV Watts for a small system in Western Mass. Here’s what I found: Azimuth Roof Pitch kWH/year % of optimum 180 40 2593 100% 0 40 1291 49% 0 10 1996 79% 75 40 1829 70% Looks like roof pitch makes a pretty big difference in our area. Thanks, Will Will White Director of Construction – East Coast RGS Energy 64 Main St. |Montpelier, VT 05602 tel 802.223.7804 | mobile 802.234.3167 | fax 802.223.8980 RGSEnergy.com | william.white at rgsenergy.com Confidentiality Note: This e-mail message may contain confidential or legally privileged information and is intended only for the use of the intended recipient(s). Any unauthorized disclosure, dissemination, distribution, copying or the taking of any action in reliance on the information herein is prohibited. E-mails are not secure and cannot be guaranteed to be error free as they can be intercepted, amended, or contain viruses. Anyone who communicates with us by e-mail is deemed to have accepted these risks. RGS Energy is not responsible for errors or omissions in this message and denies any responsibility for any damage arising from the use of e-mail. Any opinion and other statement contained in this message and any attachment are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Mason Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 1:50 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof In the Caribbean, low tilt roofs that face North can work very well, we (16 degrees) are below the Tropic of Cancer (23 degrees) and the sun is in the North for much of the year. On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 12:24 PM, > wrote: Jarmo, The sun’s geometry is not nearly that simple. To understand the impact of north-facing arrays, you have to perform a simulation. PV:WATTS does this just fine and it is easy to show that a 18-degreed North-facing tilt produces 75% of a perfect 30-degree south-facing array. Far more than your assumption of 50%. To compare 15-degrees South to 15-degrees North, the numbers are slightly better at 77%. We are going to see a lot of north-facing arrays once people understand that low tilt angles are very forgiving on North slopes. Steep slopes are a totally different story and you have to run the numbers…. Bill. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 8:04 AM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof I did a slide on the effect of North facing modules. For even a fairly aggressive rotation North as shown, the effect is "only" a 50% reduction. The questions of whether or not to do it, are, - is the mounting structure simpler, lower cost - security against wind - can I put a larger array on the roof (typically yes, if you make back to back pyramid shaped structures) - overall, what is the cost versus benefit [cid:image001.gif at 01D0C941.007047C0] JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 [cid:image003.gif at 01D0C941.007047C0] [cid:image004.gif at 01D0C941.007047C0] [cid:image005.gif at 01D0C941.007047C0] [cid:image006.gif at 01D0C941.007047C0] *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: "Peter Parrish" > To: "'RE-wrenches'" >, Date: 07/28/2015 12:22 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof Sent by: "RE-wrenches" > ________________________________ I recently read a short piece that caught me up short, and I quote: “The fast dropping cost of solar, while a huge boon to the adoption of solar PV, has counter-intuitively altered design parameters. No longer is the north-facing roof considered unusable because limited application in less-than optimal orientations can still show a positive net benefit. Arrays are thus designed now with elements or sub-arrays in these locations, increasing overall kW installation while reducing the energy production per capacity installed. This might have been anticipated based on sheer economic analysis from a users perspective, but so long has solar been expensive that these less optimal orientations were never seriously considered.” I doubt that the individual who wrote this piece came to these conclusions him/herself. Does anyone know of a recent article that argued this perspective? Is this an emerging design practice? If so, I’d like to know more about it. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave., Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ________________________________ [Avast logo] This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image006.gif Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: image006.gif URL: From billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 28 14:15:37 2015 From: billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net (billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2015 11:15:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof In-Reply-To: References: <42AEB7A8-68B0-4222-A07F-54846DFAB1DA@ecs-solar.com> <001501d0c8f5$39da1280$ad8e3780$@parrish@calsolareng.com> Message-ID: <028101d0c961$68a9bef0$39fd3cd0$@sbcglobal.net> Larry and Peter, You are too old-school to think outside the box. It’s not about direct sunlight—it’s all about kWh/m^2/day and those numbers don’t lie. Your analysis is not correct and this is why simple analyses will always give you a wrong answer. North-facing arrays have been financially attractive for years, but many have not done it due to taboos or bad analysis. Reverse-tilt arrays often look horrible and should be avoided particularly on the street-side of a house. Also, the structural impacts of tilted arrays on residential rooftops are not well-understood so wind-loading calculations are complex at best. We have been using east and west facing roofs for your years so what’s the big deal about north? I put together the one of the first tables of orientation version performance way back in 2001 for the California Energy Commission to combat the misconceptions that PV arrays had to be mounted at 45-degrees facing South (the prevailing misconception at the time). I didn’t print the North facing numbers because the concept would have blown people’s minds at the time—they weren’t ready for the truth. 30-degrees facing south is optimal in most latitudes from 20-degrees to 50-degrees. (perfect in most locations) 4:12 pitch (18-degrees) facing south is 97% of perfect. 4:12 pitch east or west is 88% of perfect. Flat is 89% of perfect. 4:12 pitch facing north is 75% of perfect. The truth shall set you FREE. Bill. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Starlight Solar Power Systems Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 9:41 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof In Yuma, AZ, north facing modules will have direct sunlight for small part of the year. In the picture, look at the yellow area above the East-West line. Thats direct sunlight from the north. The green top line in the picture shows summer solstice showing sunlight from sunrise to about 0930 and from 1530 to sunset. The energy harvested during those hours will be tiny compared to the peak sun hours on the south side. The angle of incidence will also reduce the total power generated during those hours. The thin brown middle line is the equinox. By then, there is no direct sunlight on the north side. I can not see any benefit in AZ even at todays low prices. Now, if I were building in Quetzaltenango, Guatemala, that would be a different story. But then again, I would have to clean off the volcanic ash each morning. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems chart came from http://www.gaisma.com/en/ On Jul 27, 2015, at 11:21 PM, Peter Parrish > wrote: I recently read a short piece that caught me up short, and I quote: “The fast dropping cost of solar, while a huge boon to the adoption of solar PV, has counter-intuitively altered design parameters. No longer is the north-facing roof considered unusable because limited application in less-than optimal orientations can still show a positive net benefit. Arrays are thus designed now with elements or sub-arrays in these locations, increasing overall kW installation while reducing the energy production per capacity installed. This might have been anticipated based on sheer economic analysis from a users perspective, but so long has solar been expensive that these less optimal orientations were never seriously considered.” I doubt that the individual who wrote this piece came to these conclusions him/herself. Does anyone know of a recent article that argued this perspective? Is this an emerging design practice? If so, I’d like to know more about it. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave., Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com _______________________________________________ --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 31020 bytes Desc: not available URL: From billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 28 14:32:36 2015 From: billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net (billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2015 11:32:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof In-Reply-To: References: <42AEB7A8-68B0-4222-A07F-54846DFAB1DA@ecs-solar.com> <021601d0c951$f59e7180$e0db5480$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <028701d0c963$c7bd4680$5737d380$@sbcglobal.net> Jarmo, Unfortunately, simple is wrong in this case—and detrimental to the PV industry that needs all the roof real estate it can find. Bill. Bill Brooks, PE Principal Brooks Engineering From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 10:43 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof Hi: Granted that the description is very simple, but that is the intent. The essence of it is that the "loss" for small variations in angle of incidence is approximately bounded by, (less than), the sin of the angle between the orientations of two panels/arrays in question. 10 degrees ---> minus 17% 20 degrees ---> minus 33% 30 degrees ---> minus 50% If you go through the detailed math and take into account atmospheric effects, especially when the sun is near the horizons, temperature, location, weather, etc., the result will vary, but will not be worse than the sin of the angle. I'll draw out better picture with more detail for Vancouver. We're at a fairly high latitude, so overall array orientation is a more sensitive factor than farther south. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Brian Mehalic > To: RE-wrenches >, Date: 07/28/2015 09:48 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof Sent by: "RE-wrenches" > _____ The analysis of 50% of south facing production is too simplistic; running some modeling shows that, depending on the latitude, the difference can be much smaller, approaching 25% less for the north facing. I think this layout could become more common especially on low slope commercial roofs, where the north facing module would occupy space that was already unused due to interrow shading. Of course the closer to the equator the less difference between production of the north and south arrays...and you better be careful when stringing them in series so as not to mix N and S facing..plus filling in all those gaps between rows could make servicing the array a bit problematic! Cheers, Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 PV Curriculum Developer and Instructor Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 10:24 AM, > wrote: Jarmo, The sun’s geometry is not nearly that simple. To understand the impact of north-facing arrays, you have to perform a simulation. PV:WATTS does this just fine and it is easy to show that a 18-degreed North-facing tilt produces 75% of a perfect 30-degree south-facing array. Far more than your assumption of 50%. To compare 15-degrees South to 15-degrees North, the numbers are slightly better at 77%. We are going to see a lot of north-facing arrays once people understand that low tilt angles are very forgiving on North slopes. Steep slopes are a totally different story and you have to run the numbers…. Bill. From: RE-wrenches [mailto: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 8:04 AM To: RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof I did a slide on the effect of North facing modules. For even a fairly aggressive rotation North as shown, the effect is "only" a 50% reduction. The questions of whether or not to do it, are, - is the mounting structure simpler, lower cost - security against wind - can I put a larger array on the roof (typically yes, if you make back to back pyramid shaped structures) - overall, what is the cost versus benefit JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: "Peter Parrish" < peter.parrish at calsolareng.com> To: "'RE-wrenches'" < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>, Date: 07/28/2015 12:22 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof Sent by: "RE-wrenches" < re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org> _____ I recently read a short piece that caught me up short, and I quote: “The fast dropping cost of solar, while a huge boon to the adoption of solar PV, has counter-intuitively altered design parameters. No longer is the north-facing roof considered unusable because limited application in less-than optimal orientations can still show a positive net benefit. Arrays are thus designed now with elements or sub-arrays in these locations, increasing overall kW installation while reducing the energy production per capacity installed. This might have been anticipated based on sheer economic analysis from a users perspective, but so long has solar been expensive that these less optimal orientations were never seriously considered.” I doubt that the individual who wrote this piece came to these conclusions him/herself. Does anyone know of a recent article that argued this perspective? Is this an emerging design practice? If so, I’d like to know more about it. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave., Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _____ This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image006.gif Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Tue Jul 28 15:44:48 2015 From: Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com (Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2015 12:44:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof In-Reply-To: <028701d0c963$c7bd4680$5737d380$@sbcglobal.net> References: <42AEB7A8-68B0-4222-A07F-54846DFAB1DA@ecs-solar.com> <021601d0c951$f59e7180$e0db5480$@sbcglobal.net> <028701d0c963$c7bd4680$5737d380$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: The intent of the simple example was to show that production is not severely affected by unusual orientations. I will clarify my message. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: To: "'RE-wrenches'" , Date: 07/28/2015 12:20 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof Sent by: "RE-wrenches" Jarmo, Unfortunately, simple is wrong in this case—and detrimental to the PV industry that needs all the roof real estate it can find. Bill. Bill Brooks, PE Principal Brooks Engineering From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 10:43 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof Hi: Granted that the description is very simple, but that is the intent. The essence of it is that the "loss" for small variations in angle of incidence is approximately bounded by, (less than), the sin of the angle between the orientations of two panels/arrays in question. 10 degrees ---> minus 17% 20 degrees ---> minus 33% 30 degrees ---> minus 50% If you go through the detailed math and take into account atmospheric effects, especially when the sun is near the horizons, temperature, location, weather, etc., the result will vary, but will not be worse than the sin of the angle. I'll draw out better picture with more detail for Vancouver. We're at a fairly high latitude, so overall array orientation is a more sensitive factor than farther south. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Brian Mehalic To: RE-wrenches , Date: 07/28/2015 09:48 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof Sent by: "RE-wrenches" The analysis of 50% of south facing production is too simplistic; running some modeling shows that, depending on the latitude, the difference can be much smaller, approaching 25% less for the north facing. I think this layout could become more common especially on low slope commercial roofs, where the north facing module would occupy space that was already unused due to interrow shading. Of course the closer to the equator the less difference between production of the north and south arrays...and you better be careful when stringing them in series so as not to mix N and S facing..plus filling in all those gaps between rows could make servicing the array a bit problematic! Cheers, Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 PV Curriculum Developer and Instructor Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 10:24 AM, wrote: Jarmo, The sun’s geometry is not nearly that simple. To understand the impact of north-facing arrays, you have to perform a simulation. PV:WATTS does this just fine and it is easy to show that a 18-degreed North-facing tilt produces 75% of a perfect 30-degree south-facing array. Far more than your assumption of 50%. To compare 15-degrees South to 15-degrees North, the numbers are slightly better at 77%. We are going to see a lot of north-facing arrays once people understand that low tilt angles are very forgiving on North slopes. Steep slopes are a totally different story and you have to run the numbers…. Bill. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 8:04 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof I did a slide on the effect of North facing modules. For even a fairly aggressive rotation North as shown, the effect is "only" a 50% reduction. The questions of whether or not to do it, are, - is the mounting structure simpler, lower cost - security against wind - can I put a larger array on the roof (typically yes, if you make back to back pyramid shaped structures) - overall, what is the cost versus benefit JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: "Peter Parrish" To: "'RE-wrenches'" , Date: 07/28/2015 12:22 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof Sent by: "RE-wrenches" I recently read a short piece that caught me up short, and I quote: “The fast dropping cost of solar, while a huge boon to the adoption of solar PV, has counter-intuitively altered design parameters. No longer is the north-facing roof considered unusable because limited application in less-than optimal orientations can still show a positive net benefit. Arrays are thus designed now with elements or sub-arrays in these locations, increasing overall kW installation while reducing the energy production per capacity installed. This might have been anticipated based on sheer economic analysis from a users perspective, but so long has solar been expensive that these less optimal orientations were never seriously considered.” I doubt that the individual who wrote this piece came to these conclusions him/herself. Does anyone know of a recent article that argued this perspective? Is this an emerging design practice? If so, I’d like to know more about it. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave., Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Jul 28 16:31:42 2015 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2015 13:31:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof In-Reply-To: <028101d0c961$68a9bef0$39fd3cd0$@sbcglobal.net> References: <42AEB7A8-68B0-4222-A07F-54846DFAB1DA@ecs-solar.com> <001501d0c8f5$39da1280$ad8e3780$@parrish@calsolareng.com> <028101d0c961$68a9bef0$39fd3cd0$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <3188e78b046cf2dd620bf9d0f4960173@mail.gmail.com> Bill and Wrenches, I have been battling this issue for a while. Our sales folks are up against fierce competition and want to design a system that has the best return on investment. So, they will choose a reverse tilt system over a North facing array unless there is a strong deterrent to going with reverse tilt. This deterrent could come in the form of a company policy “no reverse tilts” or by adding significant costs to reverse tilt systems. We’ve tried some of both and there are still cases where reverse tilts prevail – but we do them very seldom and only with careful consideration. Let’s say we have a 5 kW grid tied system (off grid is a whole other ball of wax) and we’re analyzing our options between flush mount North 18 degrees (4:12 pitch) and reverse tilt to South at 5 degrees. The North facing array will produce about 24% less than the South facing reverse tilt system assuming no differences in shade for our Bay Area location or 5126 kWh/yr for North versus 6758 kWh/yr for South. At $0.20/w for electricity this amounts to $326/yr of extra savings for the South facing reverse tilt system. We might charge about an extra $1500 to install the reverse tilt system to account for the engineering cost to check the structure and extra racking material and labor. This means that the reverse tilt system pays off in less than 5 years. The numbers would be more in favor of the reverse tilt if the North facing pitch was steeper. I guess all I’m saying is that the pure numbers still support reverse tilts in some cases. Despite that, my gut is that we should avoid them for the same reasons that Bill lists below. Best, August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net *Sent:* Tuesday, July 28, 2015 11:16 AM *To:* 'RE-wrenches' *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof Larry and Peter, You are too old-school to think outside the box. It’s not about direct sunlight—it’s all about kWh/m^2/day and those numbers don’t lie. Your analysis is not correct and this is why simple analyses will always give you a wrong answer. North-facing arrays have been financially attractive for years, but many have not done it due to taboos or bad analysis. Reverse-tilt arrays often look horrible and should be avoided particularly on the street-side of a house. Also, the structural impacts of tilted arrays on residential rooftops are not well-understood so wind-loading calculations are complex at best. We have been using east and west facing roofs for your years so what’s the big deal about north? I put together the one of the first tables of orientation version performance way back in 2001 for the California Energy Commission to combat the misconceptions that PV arrays had to be mounted at 45-degrees facing South (the prevailing misconception at the time). I didn’t print the North facing numbers because the concept would have blown people’s minds at the time—they weren’t ready for the truth. 30-degrees facing south is optimal in most latitudes from 20-degrees to 50-degrees. (perfect in most locations) 4:12 pitch (18-degrees) facing south is 97% of perfect. 4:12 pitch east or west is 88% of perfect. Flat is 89% of perfect. 4:12 pitch facing north is 75% of perfect. The truth shall set you FREE. Bill. *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] *On Behalf Of *Starlight Solar Power Systems *Sent:* Tuesday, July 28, 2015 9:41 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof In Yuma, AZ, north facing modules will have direct sunlight for small part of the year. In the picture, look at the yellow area above the East-West line. Thats direct sunlight from the north. The green top line in the picture shows summer solstice showing sunlight from sunrise to about 0930 and from 1530 to sunset. The energy harvested during those hours will be tiny compared to the peak sun hours on the south side. The angle of incidence will also reduce the total power generated during those hours. The thin brown middle line is the equinox. By then, there is no direct sunlight on the north side. I can not see any benefit in AZ even at todays low prices. Now, if I were building in Quetzaltenango, Guatemala, that would be a different story. But then again, I would have to clean off the volcanic ash each morning. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems chart came from http://www.gaisma.com/en/ On Jul 27, 2015, at 11:21 PM, Peter Parrish wrote: I recently read a short piece that caught me up short, and I quote: “The fast dropping cost of solar, while a huge boon to the adoption of solar PV, has counter-intuitively altered design parameters. No longer is the north-facing roof considered unusable because limited application in less-than optimal orientations can still show a positive net benefit. Arrays are thus designed now with elements or sub-arrays in these locations, increasing overall kW installation while reducing the energy production per capacity installed. This might have been anticipated based on sheer economic analysis from a users perspective, but so long has solar been expensive that these less optimal orientations were never seriously considered.” I doubt that the individual who wrote this piece came to these conclusions him/herself. Does anyone know of a recent article that argued this perspective? Is this an emerging design practice? If so, I’d like to know more about it. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave., Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com _______________________________________________ ------------------------------ [image: Avast logo] This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 31020 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Jul 28 17:27:16 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2015 17:27:16 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof In-Reply-To: References: <42AEB7A8-68B0-4222-A07F-54846DFAB1DA@ecs-solar.com> <021601d0c951$f59e7180$e0db5480$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: This assumes 180º is optimum, which it may be for you, but 170º is actually closer to modeled optimum in my area. Bill Brooks nailed it by clarifying that it's all about the kWh/m^2/day, or more accurately kWh/m^2/year for netmetered customers without TOU metering. My research at the link below covers 36 azimuth at five popular roof pitches in my area (180 data points). This is the analysis you need to do if you want really good answers fro your customers, which is what Will has done below on a smaller scale. http://floridasolardesigngroup.com/solar-electricity-output-based-on-tilt-and-orientation/ If you are familiar with APIs, you can get the data from PVWATTS programmatically without too much difficulty. Jason Szumlanski On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 2:23 PM, Will White wrote: > I did a quick simulation using PV Watts for a small system in Western > Mass. Here’s what I found: > > > > Azimuth Roof Pitch kWH/year % of optimum > > 180 40 > 2593 100% > > 0 40 > 1291 49% > > 0 10 > 1996 79% > > 75 40 > 1829 70% > > > > Looks like roof pitch makes a pretty big difference in our area. > > > > Thanks, > > Will > > > > *Will White* > Director of Construction – East Coast > > RGS Energy > > 64 Main St. |Montpelier, VT 05602 > tel 802.223.7804 | mobile 802.234.3167 | fax 802.223.8980 > > *RGSEnergy.com **| > william.white at rgsenergy.com * > > *Confidentiality Note: *This e-mail message may contain confidential or > legally privileged information and is intended only for the use of the > intended recipient(s). Any unauthorized disclosure, dissemination, > distribution, copying or the taking of any action in reliance on the > information herein is prohibited. E-mails are not secure and cannot be > guaranteed to be error free as they can be intercepted, amended, or contain > viruses. Anyone who communicates with us by e-mail is deemed to have > accepted these risks. RGS Energy is not responsible for errors or omissions > in this message and denies any responsibility for any damage arising from > the use of e-mail. Any opinion and other statement contained in this > message and any attachment are solely those of the author and do not > necessarily represent those of the company. > > > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Chris Mason > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 28, 2015 1:50 PM > > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof > > > > In the Caribbean, low tilt roofs that face North can work very well, we > (16 degrees) are below the Tropic of Cancer (23 degrees) and the sun is in > the North for much of the year. > > > > On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 12:24 PM, wrote: > > Jarmo, > > > > The sun’s geometry is not nearly that simple. To understand the impact of > north-facing arrays, you have to perform a simulation. PV:WATTS does this > just fine and it is easy to show that a 18-degreed North-facing tilt > produces 75% of a perfect 30-degree south-facing array. Far more than your > assumption of 50%. > > > > To compare 15-degrees South to 15-degrees North, the numbers are slightly > better at 77%. We are going to see a lot of north-facing arrays once people > understand that low tilt angles are very forgiving on North slopes. Steep > slopes are a totally different story and you have to run the numbers…. > > > > Bill. > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 28, 2015 8:04 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof > > > > I did a slide on the effect of North facing modules. For even a fairly > aggressive rotation North as shown, the effect is "only" a 50% reduction. > > The questions of whether or not to do it, are, > > - is the mounting structure simpler, lower cost > - security against wind > - can I put a larger array on the roof (typically yes, if you make back > to back pyramid shaped structures) > - overall, what is the cost versus benefit > > JARMO > > _____________________________________________________________________________________ > > * Jarmo Venalainen* | * Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand* | > *CANADA* | *Sales Application Engineer* > * Phone:* +604-422-2528 | * Tech Support:* 800-670-0707 | *Mobile:* > +604-505-0291 > * Email:* jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | *Site:* > www.Xantrex.com | *Address:* 3700 Gilmore > Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail > > From: > > "Peter Parrish" > > To: > > "'RE-wrenches'" , > > Date: > > 07/28/2015 12:22 AM > > Subject: > > [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof > > Sent by: > > "RE-wrenches" > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > I recently read a short piece that caught me up short, and I quote: > > “The fast dropping cost of solar, while a huge boon to the adoption of > solar PV, has counter-intuitively altered design parameters. No longer is > the north-facing roof considered unusable because limited application in > less-than optimal orientations can still show a positive net benefit. > Arrays are thus designed now with elements or sub-arrays in these > locations, increasing overall kW installation while reducing the energy > production per capacity installed. This might have been anticipated based > on sheer economic analysis from a users perspective, but so long has solar > been expensive that these less optimal orientations were never seriously > considered.” > > I doubt that the individual who wrote this piece came to these conclusions > him/herself. Does anyone know of a recent article that argued this > perspective? Is this an emerging design practice? If so, I’d like to know > more about it. > > - Peter > > Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. > President, SolarGnosis > 1107 Fair Oaks Ave., Suite 351 > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > (323) 839-6108 > petertor at pobox.com > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. > ______________________________________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > ------------------------------ > > [image: Avast logo] > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > -- > > Chris Mason > > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > > Solar Design Engineer > > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > > > www.cometsolar.com > > 264.235.5670 > > 869.662.5670 > > Skype: netconcepts > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 7678 bytes Desc: not available URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Tue Jul 28 19:01:43 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2015 16:01:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof In-Reply-To: <028101d0c961$68a9bef0$39fd3cd0$@sbcglobal.net> References: <42AEB7A8-68B0-4222-A07F-54846DFAB1DA@ecs-solar.com> <001501d0c8f5$39da1280$ad8e3780$@parrish@calsolareng.com> <028101d0c961$68a9bef0$39fd3cd0$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <55B809D7.7030906@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 31020 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Jul 29 10:56:53 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2015 10:56:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof In-Reply-To: <55B809D7.7030906@sindelarsolar.com> References: <42AEB7A8-68B0-4222-A07F-54846DFAB1DA@ecs-solar.com> <028101d0c961$68a9bef0$39fd3cd0$@sbcglobal.net> <55B809D7.7030906@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: I want to give back to this forum that has been so valuable to me, so here it is... a tool for you to quickly compile data for multiple compass orientations for a given pitch... http://floridasolardesigngroup.com/pva/do-pvwatts-wrenches.php This PVWATTS derived tool will give you 36 data points for solar energy production with every azimuth from 0º to 350º at 10º increments for a given location and pitch. You can enter your desired system size to model its output and include your desired PVWATTS derate (system loss) factor. It will download a .CSV file each time you run the tool. You can run it for a variety of tilt angles based on your needs to compile data for your own study. There are limits on use, but if everyone does not run out and use it at the same time it should be fine. Once you get your data into a spreadsheet you can easily slice and dice it any way you want and make some great visualizations. [image: Inline image 1] Enjoy! Jason Szumlanski On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 7:01 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > I am paying close attention to this thread, but for different reasons. I > have designed and will install next month an off grid system for a > high-elevation research hut. At 14,242' I believe this will be the highest > elevation off grid system in the continental US (Alaska too?), at the > Summit Hut atop White Mountain, east of the Sierra crest in eastern > California (wmrc.edu/facilities/bar/summit.html). For me it's sort of a > post-retirement summer working adventure. A nearly identical system will > serve an older observatory at 12,700' in the same area. The Summit Hut will > get a roof array where winds of 190 mph have been measured, I'm told. The > roof has about a 5º north-facing tilt. > > I'm old-school too, thinking in terms of a 25º tilt to south. But other > than powering an internet repeater all year, the system is only used during > the summer months, mid-June to mid-October, when the snow has melted and > it's accessible by a long jeep trail. So in that respect it's similar to a > flat- or north-facing array in a grid-tied system, where only summer gain > matters much and a southern tilt matters less that I want to believe. > Jason's chart is pretty useful here, suggesting that I should pay more > attention to handling wind loads with a low angle than maximizing summer > gain. > Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* > > > On 7/28/2015 11:15 AM, billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net wrote: > > Larry and Peter, > > > > You are too old-school to think outside the box. It’s not about direct > sunlight—it’s all about kWh/m^2/day and those numbers don’t lie. Your > analysis is not correct and this is why simple analyses will always give > you a wrong answer. > > > > North-facing arrays have been financially attractive for years, but many > have not done it due to taboos or bad analysis. Reverse-tilt arrays often > look horrible and should be avoided particularly on the street-side of a > house. Also, the structural impacts of tilted arrays on residential > rooftops are not well-understood so wind-loading calculations are complex > at best. > > > > We have been using east and west facing roofs for your years so what’s the > big deal about north? I put together the one of the first tables of > orientation version performance way back in 2001 for the California Energy > Commission to combat the misconceptions that PV arrays had to be mounted at > 45-degrees facing South (the prevailing misconception at the time). I > didn’t print the North facing numbers because the concept would have blown > people’s minds at the time—they weren’t ready for the truth. > > > > 30-degrees facing south is optimal in most latitudes from 20-degrees to > 50-degrees. (perfect in most locations) > > 4:12 pitch (18-degrees) facing south is 97% of perfect. > > 4:12 pitch east or west is 88% of perfect. > > Flat is 89% of perfect. > > 4:12 pitch facing north is 75% of perfect. > > > > The truth shall set you FREE. > > > > Bill. > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of *Starlight > Solar Power Systems > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 28, 2015 9:41 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof > > > > In Yuma, AZ, north facing modules will have direct sunlight for small part > of the year. In the picture, look at the yellow area above the East-West > line. Thats direct sunlight from the north. The green top line in the > picture shows summer solstice showing sunlight from sunrise to about 0930 > and from 1530 to sunset. The energy harvested during those hours will be > tiny compared to the peak sun hours on the south side. The angle of > incidence will also reduce the total power generated during those hours. > > > > The thin brown middle line is the equinox. By then, there is no direct > sunlight on the north side. I can not see any benefit in AZ even at todays > low prices. Now, if I were building in Quetzaltenango, Guatemala, that > would be a different story. But then again, I would have to clean off the > volcanic ash each morning. > > > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > chart came from http://www.gaisma.com/en/ > > > > > > On Jul 27, 2015, at 11:21 PM, Peter Parrish > wrote: > > > > I recently read a short piece that caught me up short, and I quote: > > > “The fast dropping cost of solar, while a huge boon to the adoption of > solar PV, has counter-intuitively altered design parameters. No longer is > the north-facing roof considered unusable because limited application in > less-than optimal orientations can still show a positive net benefit. > Arrays are thus designed now with elements or sub-arrays in these > locations, increasing overall kW installation while reducing the energy > production per capacity installed. This might have been anticipated based > on sheer economic analysis from a users perspective, but so long has solar > been expensive that these less optimal orientations were never seriously > considered.” > > > > I doubt that the individual who wrote this piece came to these conclusions > him/herself. Does anyone know of a recent article that argued this > perspective? Is this an emerging design practice? If so, I’d like to know > more about it. > > > > - Peter > > > > Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. > > President, SolarGnosis > > 1107 Fair Oaks Ave., Suite 351 > > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > > (323) 839-6108 > > petertor at pobox.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 31020 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Solar Energy Chart.png Type: image/png Size: 24322 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william.miller at millersolar.com Wed Jul 29 19:19:49 2015 From: william.miller at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2015 16:19:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solectria PVI Series inverter problems Message-ID: <16e101d0ca55$11e44d70$35ace850$@millersolar.com> Friends: We have just begun using the Solectria PVI series inverter. I fear these inverters may fall off the wall. There is no positive way of attaching the inverter to the bracket, it just rests on there by the grace of gravity. The bracket is very narrow, about 4 inches wide, and the height of the inverter presents a lot of leverage on this small bracket. The electronics sections is seperateable from the connection box, but the connection box will then be left floating in the air, suspended only by the conduits. Point 2: The manual indicates the inverter needs to be mounted on "non-flammable" surfaces. This makes me wonder how hot the inverter gets? This limits mounting options: you can't mount them on wood siding and you can't use plywood to span studs. Point 3: There are also some problems with the manual. I have detailed all of these problems in a web page called, "What's wrong with the Solectria PVI Series?" The link is: http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/Solectria/Solectria.html I contacted Solectria about these problems and all I get are promises. I am curious: Does anyone else feel that this mounting system is inadequate? Unfortunately, we started using these just after we attended a seminar presented by Solectria. I was not able to ask them in person why the PVI series inverter has such an inadequate mounting system. If anyone else has complaints about the Solectria, I'd like to hear them. I am real close to banning them from our inventory until these problems are resolved. If there are other problems I have not encountered, I want to factor that in to my decisions. Thanks in advance, William PS: Point 4: Just to get all of my complaints in one place, tech support is pretty marginal with Solectria. A few weeks ago I called and the tech support person did not have access to any of the manuals! I have called them for 4 weeks now and have not received one call back. I called again just now and waited on hold for several minutes, only to be presented with a recording to leave a message. This is pretty bad in itself, but then the mail box was full and would not accept my message!? This is not the indication of a well-founded company. William Gradient Cap_mini Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dahlsolar at gmail.com Wed Jul 29 19:58:50 2015 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Solar) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2015 18:58:50 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solectria PVI Series inverter problems In-Reply-To: <16e101d0ca55$11e44d70$35ace850$@millersolar.com> References: <16e101d0ca55$11e44d70$35ace850$@millersolar.com> Message-ID: I haven't used the PVI so I can't comment on the mounting issue but my past experience with Solectria and tech support was similar to yours. Jesse Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 29, 2015, at 6:19 PM, "William Miller" wrote: > > Friends: > > We have just begun using the Solectria PVI series inverter. I fear these inverters may fall off the wall. There is no positive way of attaching the inverter to the bracket, it just rests on there by the grace of gravity. The bracket is very narrow, about 4 inches wide, and the height of the inverter presents a lot of leverage on this small bracket. The electronics sections is seperateable from the connection box, but the connection box will then be left floating in the air, suspended only by the conduits. > > Point 2: The manual indicates the inverter needs to be mounted on “non-flammable” surfaces. This makes me wonder how hot the inverter gets? This limits mounting options: you can’t mount them on wood siding and you can’t use plywood to span studs. > > Point 3: There are also some problems with the manual. I have detailed all of these problems in a web page called, “What’s wrong with the Solectria PVI Series?” The link is: > > http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/Solectria/Solectria.html > > I contacted Solectria about these problems and all I get are promises. > > I am curious: Does anyone else feel that this mounting system is inadequate? Unfortunately, we started using these just after we attended a seminar presented by Solectria. I was not able to ask them in person why the PVI series inverter has such an inadequate mounting system. > > If anyone else has complaints about the Solectria, I’d like to hear them. I am real close to banning them from our inventory until these problems are resolved. If there are other problems I have not encountered, I want to factor that in to my decisions. > > Thanks in advance, > > William > > PS: Point 4: Just to get all of my complaints in one place, tech support is pretty marginal with Solectria. A few weeks ago I called and the tech support person did not have access to any of the manuals! I have called them for 4 weeks now and have not received one call back. I called again just now and waited on hold for several minutes, only to be presented with a recording to leave a message. This is pretty bad in itself, but then the mail box was full and would not accept my message!? This is not the indication of a well-founded company. > > William > > > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Jul 29 21:54:35 2015 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2015 21:54:35 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum buzz box Message-ID: <20150730015441.DC7CB3DC05B@homiemail-a92.g.dreamhost.com> I installed a Magnum 4448 PAE today, and it makes an unacceptable amount of noise. The backplate is mounted with Tapcons to a concrete block wall. Does anyone have any tips for quieting this thing down? Would a rubber membrane, mounted behind the backplate help. Other Magnum inverters I've installed are a bit noisy, but this one is over the top. Thanks, Drake From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Jul 30 00:54:18 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2015 18:54:18 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solectria PVI Series inverter problems In-Reply-To: References: <16e101d0ca55$11e44d70$35ace850$@millersolar.com> Message-ID: We have used the 100 k model and have had it repaired soon after the install and it took some time to get the tech available so we will need to wait and see if it was one time or not Jerry On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 1:58 PM, Solar wrote: > I haven't used the PVI so I can't comment on the mounting issue but my > past experience with Solectria and tech support was similar to yours. > > Jesse > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jul 29, 2015, at 6:19 PM, "William Miller" < > william.miller at millersolar.com> wrote: > > Friends: > > > > We have just begun using the Solectria PVI series inverter. I fear these > inverters may fall off the wall. There is no positive way of attaching the > inverter to the bracket, it just rests on there by the grace of gravity. > The bracket is very narrow, about 4 inches wide, and the height of the > inverter presents a lot of leverage on this small bracket. The electronics > sections is seperateable from the connection box, but the connection box > will then be left floating in the air, suspended only by the conduits. > > > > Point 2: The manual indicates the inverter needs to be mounted on > “non-flammable” surfaces. This makes me wonder how hot the inverter gets? > This limits mounting options: you can’t mount them on wood siding and you > can’t use plywood to span studs. > > > > Point 3: There are also some problems with the manual. I have detailed > all of these problems in a web page called, “What’s wrong with the > Solectria PVI Series?” The link is: > > > > > http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/Solectria/Solectria.html > > > > I contacted Solectria about these problems and all I get are promises. > > > > I am curious: Does anyone else feel that this mounting system is > inadequate? Unfortunately, we started using these just after we attended a > seminar presented by Solectria. I was not able to ask them in person why > the PVI series inverter has such an inadequate mounting system. > > > > If anyone else has complaints about the Solectria, I’d like to hear them. > I am real close to banning them from our inventory until these problems are > resolved. If there are other problems I have not encountered, I want to > factor that in to my decisions. > > > > Thanks in advance, > > > > William > > > > PS: Point 4: Just to get all of my complaints in one place, tech support > is pretty marginal with Solectria. A few weeks ago I called and the tech > support person did not have access to any of the manuals! I have called > them for 4 weeks now and have not received one call back. I called again > just now and waited on hold for several minutes, only to be presented with > a recording to leave a message. This is pretty bad in itself, but then the > mail box was full and would not accept my message!? This is not the > indication of a well-founded company. > > > > William > > > > > > > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jul 30 13:16:09 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2015 13:16:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof In-Reply-To: References: <42AEB7A8-68B0-4222-A07F-54846DFAB1DA@ecs-solar.com> <028101d0c961$68a9bef0$39fd3cd0$@sbcglobal.net> <55B809D7.7030906@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: I figured while I'm at it I might as well release something else that you can actually print out and present to your clients or use for your own visualization purposes. This is a very similar tool that will output a web page with a radar chart (like a spider web representing the compass) and a data table down to the secondary intercardinal directions. Hover over the points to see the value. http://floridasolardesigngroup.com/pva/do-site-analysis.php Run it at two different tilt angles and check out the differences. Eventually I plan to update this to compare two (or more) tilt angles on the same radar chart. For now, this is all you get. :) [image: Inline image 3] Once again, enjoy! Jason On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 10:56 AM, Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I want to give back to this forum that has been so valuable to me, so here > it is... a tool for you to quickly compile data for multiple compass > orientations for a given pitch... > > http://floridasolardesigngroup.com/pva/do-pvwatts-wrenches.php > > This PVWATTS derived tool will give you 36 data points for solar energy > production with every azimuth from 0º to 350º at 10º increments for a given > location and pitch. You can enter your desired system size to model its > output and include your desired PVWATTS derate (system loss) factor. It > will download a .CSV file each time you run the tool. You can run it for a > variety of tilt angles based on your needs to compile data for your own > study. > > There are limits on use, but if everyone does not run out and use it at > the same time it should be fine. > > Once you get your data into a spreadsheet you can easily slice and dice it > any way you want and make some great visualizations. > > [image: Inline image 1] > > > Enjoy! > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 7:01 PM, Allan Sindelar > wrote: > >> I am paying close attention to this thread, but for different reasons. I >> have designed and will install next month an off grid system for a >> high-elevation research hut. At 14,242' I believe this will be the highest >> elevation off grid system in the continental US (Alaska too?), at the >> Summit Hut atop White Mountain, east of the Sierra crest in eastern >> California (wmrc.edu/facilities/bar/summit.html). For me it's sort of a >> post-retirement summer working adventure. A nearly identical system will >> serve an older observatory at 12,700' in the same area. The Summit Hut will >> get a roof array where winds of 190 mph have been measured, I'm told. The >> roof has about a 5º north-facing tilt. >> >> I'm old-school too, thinking in terms of a 25º tilt to south. But other >> than powering an internet repeater all year, the system is only used during >> the summer months, mid-June to mid-October, when the snow has melted and >> it's accessible by a long jeep trail. So in that respect it's similar to a >> flat- or north-facing array in a grid-tied system, where only summer gain >> matters much and a southern tilt matters less that I want to believe. >> Jason's chart is pretty useful here, suggesting that I should pay more >> attention to handling wind loads with a low angle than maximizing summer >> gain. >> Allan >> >> *Allan Sindelar* >> allan at sindelarsolar.com >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional >> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >> *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* >> >> >> On 7/28/2015 11:15 AM, billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net wrote: >> >> Larry and Peter, >> >> >> >> You are too old-school to think outside the box. It’s not about direct >> sunlight—it’s all about kWh/m^2/day and those numbers don’t lie. Your >> analysis is not correct and this is why simple analyses will always give >> you a wrong answer. >> >> >> >> North-facing arrays have been financially attractive for years, but many >> have not done it due to taboos or bad analysis. Reverse-tilt arrays often >> look horrible and should be avoided particularly on the street-side of a >> house. Also, the structural impacts of tilted arrays on residential >> rooftops are not well-understood so wind-loading calculations are complex >> at best. >> >> >> >> We have been using east and west facing roofs for your years so what’s >> the big deal about north? I put together the one of the first tables of >> orientation version performance way back in 2001 for the California Energy >> Commission to combat the misconceptions that PV arrays had to be mounted at >> 45-degrees facing South (the prevailing misconception at the time). I >> didn’t print the North facing numbers because the concept would have blown >> people’s minds at the time—they weren’t ready for the truth. >> >> >> >> 30-degrees facing south is optimal in most latitudes from 20-degrees to >> 50-degrees. (perfect in most locations) >> >> 4:12 pitch (18-degrees) facing south is 97% of perfect. >> >> 4:12 pitch east or west is 88% of perfect. >> >> Flat is 89% of perfect. >> >> 4:12 pitch facing north is 75% of perfect. >> >> >> >> The truth shall set you FREE. >> >> >> >> Bill. >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >> ] *On Behalf Of *Starlight >> Solar Power Systems >> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 28, 2015 9:41 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof >> >> >> >> In Yuma, AZ, north facing modules will have direct sunlight for small >> part of the year. In the picture, look at the yellow area above the >> East-West line. Thats direct sunlight from the north. The green top line in >> the picture shows summer solstice showing sunlight from sunrise to about >> 0930 and from 1530 to sunset. The energy harvested during those hours will >> be tiny compared to the peak sun hours on the south side. The angle of >> incidence will also reduce the total power generated during those hours. >> >> >> >> The thin brown middle line is the equinox. By then, there is no direct >> sunlight on the north side. I can not see any benefit in AZ even at todays >> low prices. Now, if I were building in Quetzaltenango, Guatemala, that >> would be a different story. But then again, I would have to clean off the >> volcanic ash each morning. >> >> >> >> Larry Crutcher >> Starlight Solar Power Systems >> >> >> >> chart came from http://www.gaisma.com/en/ >> >> >> >> >> >> On Jul 27, 2015, at 11:21 PM, Peter Parrish < >> peter.parrish at calsolareng.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> I recently read a short piece that caught me up short, and I quote: >> >> >> “The fast dropping cost of solar, while a huge boon to the adoption of >> solar PV, has counter-intuitively altered design parameters. No longer is >> the north-facing roof considered unusable because limited application in >> less-than optimal orientations can still show a positive net benefit. >> Arrays are thus designed now with elements or sub-arrays in these >> locations, increasing overall kW installation while reducing the energy >> production per capacity installed. This might have been anticipated based >> on sheer economic analysis from a users perspective, but so long has solar >> been expensive that these less optimal orientations were never seriously >> considered.” >> >> >> >> I doubt that the individual who wrote this piece came to these >> conclusions him/herself. Does anyone know of a recent article that argued >> this perspective? Is this an emerging design practice? If so, I’d like to >> know more about it. >> >> >> >> - Peter >> >> >> >> Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. >> >> President, SolarGnosis >> >> 1107 Fair Oaks Ave., Suite 351 >> >> South Pasadena, CA 91030 >> >> (323) 839-6108 >> >> petertor at pobox.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 31020 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 121345 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Solar Energy Chart.png Type: image/png Size: 24322 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Thu Jul 30 17:42:46 2015 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2015 17:42:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof In-Reply-To: References: <42AEB7A8-68B0-4222-A07F-54846DFAB1DA@ecs-solar.com> <028101d0c961$68a9bef0$39fd3cd0$@sbcglobal.net> <55B809D7.7030906@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Could you add the ability to use coordinates instead of zip code, otherwise it is no use outside the US. On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 1:16 PM, Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I figured while I'm at it I might as well release something else that you > can actually print out and present to your clients or use for your own > visualization purposes. This is a very similar tool that will output a web > page with a radar chart (like a spider web representing the compass) and a > data table down to the secondary intercardinal directions. Hover over the > points to see the value. > > http://floridasolardesigngroup.com/pva/do-site-analysis.php > > Run it at two different tilt angles and check out the differences. > Eventually I plan to update this to compare two (or more) tilt angles on > the same radar chart. For now, this is all you get. :) > > > [image: Inline image 3] > > > > Once again, enjoy! > > Jason > > > > On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 10:56 AM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> I want to give back to this forum that has been so valuable to me, so >> here it is... a tool for you to quickly compile data for multiple compass >> orientations for a given pitch... >> >> http://floridasolardesigngroup.com/pva/do-pvwatts-wrenches.php >> >> This PVWATTS derived tool will give you 36 data points for solar energy >> production with every azimuth from 0º to 350º at 10º increments for a given >> location and pitch. You can enter your desired system size to model its >> output and include your desired PVWATTS derate (system loss) factor. It >> will download a .CSV file each time you run the tool. You can run it for a >> variety of tilt angles based on your needs to compile data for your own >> study. >> >> There are limits on use, but if everyone does not run out and use it at >> the same time it should be fine. >> >> Once you get your data into a spreadsheet you can easily slice and dice >> it any way you want and make some great visualizations. >> >> [image: Inline image 1] >> >> >> Enjoy! >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 7:01 PM, Allan Sindelar >> wrote: >> >>> I am paying close attention to this thread, but for different reasons. I >>> have designed and will install next month an off grid system for a >>> high-elevation research hut. At 14,242' I believe this will be the highest >>> elevation off grid system in the continental US (Alaska too?), at the >>> Summit Hut atop White Mountain, east of the Sierra crest in eastern >>> California (wmrc.edu/facilities/bar/summit.html). For me it's sort of a >>> post-retirement summer working adventure. A nearly identical system will >>> serve an older observatory at 12,700' in the same area. The Summit Hut will >>> get a roof array where winds of 190 mph have been measured, I'm told. The >>> roof has about a 5º north-facing tilt. >>> >>> I'm old-school too, thinking in terms of a 25º tilt to south. But other >>> than powering an internet repeater all year, the system is only used during >>> the summer months, mid-June to mid-October, when the snow has melted and >>> it's accessible by a long jeep trail. So in that respect it's similar to a >>> flat- or north-facing array in a grid-tied system, where only summer gain >>> matters much and a southern tilt matters less that I want to believe. >>> Jason's chart is pretty useful here, suggesting that I should pay more >>> attention to handling wind loads with a low angle than maximizing summer >>> gain. >>> Allan >>> >>> *Allan Sindelar* >>> allan at sindelarsolar.com >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional >>> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >>> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >>> *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* >>> >>> >>> On 7/28/2015 11:15 AM, billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net wrote: >>> >>> Larry and Peter, >>> >>> >>> >>> You are too old-school to think outside the box. It’s not about direct >>> sunlight—it’s all about kWh/m^2/day and those numbers don’t lie. Your >>> analysis is not correct and this is why simple analyses will always give >>> you a wrong answer. >>> >>> >>> >>> North-facing arrays have been financially attractive for years, but many >>> have not done it due to taboos or bad analysis. Reverse-tilt arrays often >>> look horrible and should be avoided particularly on the street-side of a >>> house. Also, the structural impacts of tilted arrays on residential >>> rooftops are not well-understood so wind-loading calculations are complex >>> at best. >>> >>> >>> >>> We have been using east and west facing roofs for your years so what’s >>> the big deal about north? I put together the one of the first tables of >>> orientation version performance way back in 2001 for the California Energy >>> Commission to combat the misconceptions that PV arrays had to be mounted at >>> 45-degrees facing South (the prevailing misconception at the time). I >>> didn’t print the North facing numbers because the concept would have blown >>> people’s minds at the time—they weren’t ready for the truth. >>> >>> >>> >>> 30-degrees facing south is optimal in most latitudes from 20-degrees to >>> 50-degrees. (perfect in most locations) >>> >>> 4:12 pitch (18-degrees) facing south is 97% of perfect. >>> >>> 4:12 pitch east or west is 88% of perfect. >>> >>> Flat is 89% of perfect. >>> >>> 4:12 pitch facing north is 75% of perfect. >>> >>> >>> >>> The truth shall set you FREE. >>> >>> >>> >>> Bill. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> ] *On Behalf Of *Starlight >>> Solar Power Systems >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 28, 2015 9:41 AM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof >>> >>> >>> >>> In Yuma, AZ, north facing modules will have direct sunlight for small >>> part of the year. In the picture, look at the yellow area above the >>> East-West line. Thats direct sunlight from the north. The green top line in >>> the picture shows summer solstice showing sunlight from sunrise to about >>> 0930 and from 1530 to sunset. The energy harvested during those hours will >>> be tiny compared to the peak sun hours on the south side. The angle of >>> incidence will also reduce the total power generated during those hours. >>> >>> >>> >>> The thin brown middle line is the equinox. By then, there is no direct >>> sunlight on the north side. I can not see any benefit in AZ even at todays >>> low prices. Now, if I were building in Quetzaltenango, Guatemala, that >>> would be a different story. But then again, I would have to clean off the >>> volcanic ash each morning. >>> >>> >>> >>> Larry Crutcher >>> Starlight Solar Power Systems >>> >>> >>> >>> chart came from http://www.gaisma.com/en/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jul 27, 2015, at 11:21 PM, Peter Parrish < >>> peter.parrish at calsolareng.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> I recently read a short piece that caught me up short, and I quote: >>> >>> >>> “The fast dropping cost of solar, while a huge boon to the adoption of >>> solar PV, has counter-intuitively altered design parameters. No longer is >>> the north-facing roof considered unusable because limited application in >>> less-than optimal orientations can still show a positive net benefit. >>> Arrays are thus designed now with elements or sub-arrays in these >>> locations, increasing overall kW installation while reducing the energy >>> production per capacity installed. This might have been anticipated based >>> on sheer economic analysis from a users perspective, but so long has solar >>> been expensive that these less optimal orientations were never seriously >>> considered.” >>> >>> >>> >>> I doubt that the individual who wrote this piece came to these >>> conclusions him/herself. Does anyone know of a recent article that argued >>> this perspective? Is this an emerging design practice? If so, I’d like to >>> know more about it. >>> >>> >>> >>> - Peter >>> >>> >>> >>> Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. >>> >>> President, SolarGnosis >>> >>> 1107 Fair Oaks Ave., Suite 351 >>> >>> South Pasadena, CA 91030 >>> >>> (323) 839-6108 >>> >>> petertor at pobox.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> >>> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 31020 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Solar Energy Chart.png Type: image/png Size: 24322 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 121345 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kirk at vtsolar.com Thu Jul 30 18:06:30 2015 From: kirk at vtsolar.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2015 18:06:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AFCI error on SunnyBoy Message-ID: <002301d0cb13$fd5e7eb0$f81b7c10$@vtsolar.com> I was called to do an evaluation of a SB / SI AC-coupled system installed by others. One of the 4 SB's(9000watt TL) had a hard arc fault error which could not be reset. Apparently a fault since commissioning (sic).After checking all visible connections, I isolated each one of three sub-arrays feeding this inverter's combiner. With only sub-array 1 connected (fuse holders closed) the inverter powered up normally. So I opened up 1 (and 3) and closed circuit 2 fuses. Open circuit voltage OK. I powered up the inverter and immediately heard a loud pop. One of the interconnects in that sub-array literally blew apart and opened up. So I isolated arrays 1 and 2 and tried 3 alone. Same thing, vaporization of an interconnect. FYI - no fuses were blown on either defective circuit, but I guess that's not surprising in this scenario. So the inverter operates fine and only "good" sub-array is #1. I'm curious as to why when all three sub-arrays were combined, there was not a meltdown of 2 & 3 connections before the AFCI error shut the inverter down, but individually the faulty circuits were not caught by the AFCI circuit before the damage occurred. Thoughts anyone? Thanks. At least I know where the loose connections are / were.. Kirk Herander VT Solar, LLC Proven PV provider since 1991 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jul 30 18:33:29 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2015 18:33:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof In-Reply-To: References: <42AEB7A8-68B0-4222-A07F-54846DFAB1DA@ecs-solar.com> <028101d0c961$68a9bef0$39fd3cd0$@sbcglobal.net> <55B809D7.7030906@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Chris, Just enter the address as lat,long with negative for south or west. For example, USVI: 18.3500,-64.9333 Leave the city, state, zip blank. No spaces. Let me know if that doesn't work. It's going to pick the closest TMY3 weather station. Jason On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 5:42 PM, Chris Mason wrote: > Could you add the ability to use coordinates instead of zip code, > otherwise it is no use outside the US. > > On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 1:16 PM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> I figured while I'm at it I might as well release something else that you >> can actually print out and present to your clients or use for your own >> visualization purposes. This is a very similar tool that will output a web >> page with a radar chart (like a spider web representing the compass) and a >> data table down to the secondary intercardinal directions. Hover over the >> points to see the value. >> >> http://floridasolardesigngroup.com/pva/do-site-analysis.php >> >> Run it at two different tilt angles and check out the differences. >> Eventually I plan to update this to compare two (or more) tilt angles on >> the same radar chart. For now, this is all you get. :) >> >> >> Once again, enjoy! >> >> Jason >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 10:56 AM, Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> I want to give back to this forum that has been so valuable to me, so >>> here it is... a tool for you to quickly compile data for multiple compass >>> orientations for a given pitch... >>> >>> http://floridasolardesigngroup.com/pva/do-pvwatts-wrenches.php >>> >>> This PVWATTS derived tool will give you 36 data points for solar energy >>> production with every azimuth from 0º to 350º at 10º increments for a given >>> location and pitch. You can enter your desired system size to model its >>> output and include your desired PVWATTS derate (system loss) factor. It >>> will download a .CSV file each time you run the tool. You can run it for a >>> variety of tilt angles based on your needs to compile data for your own >>> study. >>> >>> There are limits on use, but if everyone does not run out and use it at >>> the same time it should be fine. >>> >>> Once you get your data into a spreadsheet you can easily slice and dice >>> it any way you want and make some great visualizations. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Enjoy! >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 7:01 PM, Allan Sindelar >> > wrote: >>> >>>> I am paying close attention to this thread, but for different reasons. >>>> I have designed and will install next month an off grid system for a >>>> high-elevation research hut. At 14,242' I believe this will be the highest >>>> elevation off grid system in the continental US (Alaska too?), at the >>>> Summit Hut atop White Mountain, east of the Sierra crest in eastern >>>> California (wmrc.edu/facilities/bar/summit.html). For me it's sort of >>>> a post-retirement summer working adventure. A nearly identical system will >>>> serve an older observatory at 12,700' in the same area. The Summit Hut will >>>> get a roof array where winds of 190 mph have been measured, I'm told. The >>>> roof has about a 5º north-facing tilt. >>>> >>>> I'm old-school too, thinking in terms of a 25º tilt to south. But other >>>> than powering an internet repeater all year, the system is only used during >>>> the summer months, mid-June to mid-October, when the snow has melted and >>>> it's accessible by a long jeep trail. So in that respect it's similar to a >>>> flat- or north-facing array in a grid-tied system, where only summer gain >>>> matters much and a southern tilt matters less that I want to believe. >>>> Jason's chart is pretty useful here, suggesting that I should pay more >>>> attention to handling wind loads with a low angle than maximizing summer >>>> gain. >>>> Allan >>>> >>>> *Allan Sindelar* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dahlsolar at gmail.com Fri Jul 31 17:05:02 2015 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Solar) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2015 16:05:02 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dream system. Message-ID: <7007B36D-24DF-4BF5-8947-65DDA15599B0@gmail.com> Hello all, I was recently hired to be the full time electrical instructor at a local community college. In the second year of the class there is a 6 credit "renewable energy and habitat house" course. I have been teaching at this college as an adjunct instructor since 2009 teaching for 3 of the 7 local iron ore mines,the local paper mill as well as doing most of the NEC code update courses. During that time I ran a one year and a 6 month solar PV course. I have a fairly nice lab built for the PV course consisting of the following: 2 axis tracker Fixed tilt pole mount 20'x16' mock roof with shingles and metal roofing Enphase systems (3) 700W SMA inverters Outback setup Xantrax 600v 80A charge controller Magnum 4024 inverter (AC coupled goal with this) Tigos 300W Morningstar on a demo cart Couple Solectria inverter (not used much) Trace 4024 (purchased in 99) Trace DR 1524 that goes along with our 1Kw Bergy Multiple battery brands and types AGM and flooded Pathfinders Suneye (2 210s) 600V Solmetric PVA Racking, quickmounts standoffs, clamps nuts and bolts... Modules include: 90W sunwize, Solarwolrd 175, REC 215W, silicon energy 190W, kyocera 210W, solar frontier 100W (I think 100W) AEE 95W, Dasol 15, 30, 135w. Assuming I stay with this job for the next 25 years, which will take me into my early 60s and my goal, I will have a yearly budget to spend adding to this lab. Here is the question, seeing what we have now what individual pieces would you add or what system would you build with the goal of community education or training electrical students and electricians. Long winded but I am very interested to hear your ideas! Have a good weekend and thanks! Jesse Sent from my iPhone From greg at remotepowerinc.com Fri Jul 31 17:40:10 2015 From: greg at remotepowerinc.com (Greg) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2015 13:40:10 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] East-West arrays with single MPPT Message-ID: <55BBEB3A.1070500@remotepowerinc.com> Wrenches, I ran across this article titled "Efficient East-West Orientated PV Systems with One MPP Tracker". by Dietmar Staudacher http://www.interpv.net/tech/tech_print.asp?idx=418&part_code=030140054 He tested thin film and crystalline PV. It's a pretty good read. He found that the V on the I-V curve stays pretty constant until you get down to pretty low irradiation. In short his conclusion was you would lose less than 1% if you had equal size arrays, 180 out from each other, E-W at the same tilt angle. Less wire, less inverter, almost the same power. I searched this list for "east west" and only found a couple posts on modeling multi-plane arrays so I'm thinking maybe this is worth posting. If anyone has any practical experience with this I'd be interesting in hearing what your results were. I've got an off grid customer that has data for everything. I'll probably try it at his place and see what happens. Thanks to all of you, Greg Egan Remote Power Inc. Fairbanks, AK ** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Jul 31 17:13:12 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2015 17:13:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dream system. In-Reply-To: <7007B36D-24DF-4BF5-8947-65DDA15599B0@gmail.com> References: <7007B36D-24DF-4BF5-8947-65DDA15599B0@gmail.com> Message-ID: That looks pretty good! Note sure if it's within the scope, but computer software for design and shading analysis might be good. I didn't see a 72 cell module or a Sunpower on the list. S-5 clamps and various roof panels, shingles, and tiles maybe. Jason Szumlanski On Fri, Jul 31, 2015 at 5:05 PM, Solar wrote: > Hello all, > > I was recently hired to be the full time electrical instructor at a local > community college. In the second year of the class there is a 6 credit > "renewable energy and habitat house" course. I have been teaching at this > college as an adjunct instructor since 2009 teaching for 3 of the 7 local > iron ore mines,the local paper mill as well as doing most of the NEC code > update courses. During that time I ran a one year and a 6 month solar PV > course. I have a fairly nice lab built for the PV course consisting of the > following: > > 2 axis tracker > Fixed tilt pole mount > 20'x16' mock roof with shingles and metal roofing > Enphase systems > (3) 700W SMA inverters > Outback setup > Xantrax 600v 80A charge controller > Magnum 4024 inverter (AC coupled goal with this) > Tigos > 300W Morningstar on a demo cart > Couple Solectria inverter (not used much) > Trace 4024 (purchased in 99) > Trace DR 1524 that goes along with our 1Kw Bergy > Multiple battery brands and types AGM and flooded > Pathfinders > Suneye (2 210s) > 600V Solmetric PVA > Racking, quickmounts standoffs, clamps nuts and bolts... > > > Modules include: 90W sunwize, Solarwolrd 175, REC 215W, silicon energy > 190W, kyocera 210W, solar frontier 100W (I think 100W) AEE 95W, Dasol 15, > 30, 135w. > > Assuming I stay with this job for the next 25 years, which will take me > into my early 60s and my goal, I will have a yearly budget to spend adding > to this lab. > > Here is the question, seeing what we have now what individual pieces would > you add or what system would you build with the goal of community education > or training electrical students and electricians. > > Long winded but I am very interested to hear your ideas! > > Have a good weekend and thanks! > > Jesse > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Fri Jul 31 17:29:53 2015 From: Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com (Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2015 17:29:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dream system. In-Reply-To: <7007B36D-24DF-4BF5-8947-65DDA15599B0@gmail.com> References: <7007B36D-24DF-4BF5-8947-65DDA15599B0@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi: I would add, 1. Battery Monitoring with logging capability 2. Remote monitoring and control over the web 3. Lion battery and battery manager, (open format manager circuits so that it can be seen how things work). 4. GFCI's and ELCI's on AC circuits 5. Generator and automatic generator start controller If you suggestions on specific models, contact me offline JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Solar To: Wrenches , Date: 07/31/2015 02:05 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dream system. Sent by: "RE-wrenches" Hello all, I was recently hired to be the full time electrical instructor at a local community college. In the second year of the class there is a 6 credit "renewable energy and habitat house" course. I have been teaching at this college as an adjunct instructor since 2009 teaching for 3 of the 7 local iron ore mines,the local paper mill as well as doing most of the NEC code update courses. During that time I ran a one year and a 6 month solar PV course. I have a fairly nice lab built for the PV course consisting of the following: 2 axis tracker Fixed tilt pole mount 20'x16' mock roof with shingles and metal roofing Enphase systems (3) 700W SMA inverters Outback setup Xantrax 600v 80A charge controller Magnum 4024 inverter (AC coupled goal with this) Tigos 300W Morningstar on a demo cart Couple Solectria inverter (not used much) Trace 4024 (purchased in 99) Trace DR 1524 that goes along with our 1Kw Bergy Multiple battery brands and types AGM and flooded Pathfinders Suneye (2 210s) 600V Solmetric PVA Racking, quickmounts standoffs, clamps nuts and bolts... Modules include: 90W sunwize, Solarwolrd 175, REC 215W, silicon energy 190W, kyocera 210W, solar frontier 100W (I think 100W) AEE 95W, Dasol 15, 30, 135w. Assuming I stay with this job for the next 25 years, which will take me into my early 60s and my goal, I will have a yearly budget to spend adding to this lab. Here is the question, seeing what we have now what individual pieces would you add or what system would you build with the goal of community education or training electrical students and electricians. Long winded but I am very interested to hear your ideas! Have a good weekend and thanks! Jesse Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Fri Jul 31 18:52:49 2015 From: Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com (Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2015 18:52:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof In-Reply-To: <028701d0c963$c7bd4680$5737d380$@sbcglobal.net> References: <42AEB7A8-68B0-4222-A07F-54846DFAB1DA@ecs-solar.com> <021601d0c951$f59e7180$e0db5480$@sbcglobal.net> <028701d0c963$c7bd4680$5737d380$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Hi: I went over and looked at my calculations whereby I arrived at the simple expression that the change in harvested solar energy is bounded by the sin of the angle of tilt to the North. As I was doing it however, it became clear that the reason this simple result popped up, is simply because, 1. The effect of tilting an array North is exactly the same as if the system was physically relocated farther North by that amount of degrees latitude. 2. There is a linearly decreasing amount of annual insolation which is a linear function of latitude. Latitude versus Average Annual Insolation 30 degrees latitude has 8.7 kWh-m2 40 degrees latitude has 7.8 kWh-m2 50 degrees latitude has 6.7 kWh-m2 60 degrees latitude has 5.6 kWh-m2 3. The SIN function is very linear for small angles up to about 40 degrees Angle versus sin sin(10) = 0.17 sin(20) = 0.34 sin(30) = 0.5 sin(40) = 0.64 The sin expression describing the effect of north tilt is a bounding function, whereby it bounds the maximum reduction in energy harvest as a function of tilt. It is a bounding analysis as it does not take into account the effect of atmospheric diffuse radiation which has the effect of making the "tilt loss" less than it would be if the earth had no atmosphere. For example if an array was tilted north by 40 degrees in Vancouver, with no atmosphere the modules would see no sunlight for 6 months of the year. With an atmosphere, there is still a lot of light to be gathered. Regardless, my intent with the exercise from the beginning was to find a bound for the potential "loss effect" of North tilt so that I could continue to advocate the maximum use of roof space even when that roof is North facing. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: To: "'RE-wrenches'" , Date: 07/28/2015 12:20 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof Sent by: "RE-wrenches" Jarmo, Unfortunately, simple is wrong in this case—and detrimental to the PV industry that needs all the roof real estate it can find. Bill. Bill Brooks, PE Principal Brooks Engineering From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 10:43 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof Hi: Granted that the description is very simple, but that is the intent. The essence of it is that the "loss" for small variations in angle of incidence is approximately bounded by, (less than), the sin of the angle between the orientations of two panels/arrays in question. 10 degrees ---> minus 17% 20 degrees ---> minus 33% 30 degrees ---> minus 50% If you go through the detailed math and take into account atmospheric effects, especially when the sun is near the horizons, temperature, location, weather, etc., the result will vary, but will not be worse than the sin of the angle. I'll draw out better picture with more detail for Vancouver. We're at a fairly high latitude, so overall array orientation is a more sensitive factor than farther south. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Brian Mehalic To: RE-wrenches , Date: 07/28/2015 09:48 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof Sent by: "RE-wrenches" The analysis of 50% of south facing production is too simplistic; running some modeling shows that, depending on the latitude, the difference can be much smaller, approaching 25% less for the north facing. I think this layout could become more common especially on low slope commercial roofs, where the north facing module would occupy space that was already unused due to interrow shading. Of course the closer to the equator the less difference between production of the north and south arrays...and you better be careful when stringing them in series so as not to mix N and S facing..plus filling in all those gaps between rows could make servicing the array a bit problematic! Cheers, Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 PV Curriculum Developer and Instructor Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 10:24 AM, wrote: Jarmo, The sun’s geometry is not nearly that simple. To understand the impact of north-facing arrays, you have to perform a simulation. PV:WATTS does this just fine and it is easy to show that a 18-degreed North-facing tilt produces 75% of a perfect 30-degree south-facing array. Far more than your assumption of 50%. To compare 15-degrees South to 15-degrees North, the numbers are slightly better at 77%. We are going to see a lot of north-facing arrays once people understand that low tilt angles are very forgiving on North slopes. Steep slopes are a totally different story and you have to run the numbers…. Bill. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 8:04 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof I did a slide on the effect of North facing modules. For even a fairly aggressive rotation North as shown, the effect is "only" a 50% reduction. The questions of whether or not to do it, are, - is the mounting structure simpler, lower cost - security against wind - can I put a larger array on the roof (typically yes, if you make back to back pyramid shaped structures) - overall, what is the cost versus benefit JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: "Peter Parrish" To: "'RE-wrenches'" , Date: 07/28/2015 12:22 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof Sent by: "RE-wrenches" I recently read a short piece that caught me up short, and I quote: “The fast dropping cost of solar, while a huge boon to the adoption of solar PV, has counter-intuitively altered design parameters. No longer is the north-facing roof considered unusable because limited application in less-than optimal orientations can still show a positive net benefit. Arrays are thus designed now with elements or sub-arrays in these locations, increasing overall kW installation while reducing the energy production per capacity installed. This might have been anticipated based on sheer economic analysis from a users perspective, but so long has solar been expensive that these less optimal orientations were never seriously considered.” I doubt that the individual who wrote this piece came to these conclusions him/herself. Does anyone know of a recent article that argued this perspective? Is this an emerging design practice? If so, I’d like to know more about it. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave., Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Fri Jul 31 19:27:30 2015 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2015 17:27:30 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dream system. In-Reply-To: <7007B36D-24DF-4BF5-8947-65DDA15599B0@gmail.com> References: <7007B36D-24DF-4BF5-8947-65DDA15599B0@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jason mentioned S-5 clamps... adding to that, it might be interesting to have samples of many different racking system components. It would be interesting to see all the different rail profiles and attachment methods (racking system to roof and module to rail) that are out there. *Benn Kilburn * CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc 6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7 P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com [image: email] [image: facebook] [image: twitter] [image: linkedin] [image: google] [image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal] On Fri, Jul 31, 2015 at 3:05 PM, Solar wrote: > Hello all, > > I was recently hired to be the full time electrical instructor at a local > community college. In the second year of the class there is a 6 credit > "renewable energy and habitat house" course. I have been teaching at this > college as an adjunct instructor since 2009 teaching for 3 of the 7 local > iron ore mines,the local paper mill as well as doing most of the NEC code > update courses. During that time I ran a one year and a 6 month solar PV > course. I have a fairly nice lab built for the PV course consisting of the > following: > > 2 axis tracker > Fixed tilt pole mount > 20'x16' mock roof with shingles and metal roofing > Enphase systems > (3) 700W SMA inverters > Outback setup > Xantrax 600v 80A charge controller > Magnum 4024 inverter (AC coupled goal with this) > Tigos > 300W Morningstar on a demo cart > Couple Solectria inverter (not used much) > Trace 4024 (purchased in 99) > Trace DR 1524 that goes along with our 1Kw Bergy > Multiple battery brands and types AGM and flooded > Pathfinders > Suneye (2 210s) > 600V Solmetric PVA > Racking, quickmounts standoffs, clamps nuts and bolts... > > > Modules include: 90W sunwize, Solarwolrd 175, REC 215W, silicon energy > 190W, kyocera 210W, solar frontier 100W (I think 100W) AEE 95W, Dasol 15, > 30, 135w. > > Assuming I stay with this job for the next 25 years, which will take me > into my early 60s and my goal, I will have a yearly budget to spend adding > to this lab. > > Here is the question, seeing what we have now what individual pieces would > you add or what system would you build with the goal of community education > or training electrical students and electricians. > > Long winded but I am very interested to hear your ideas! > > Have a good weekend and thanks! > > Jesse > > > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri Jul 31 18:57:04 2015 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2015 18:57:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dream system. In-Reply-To: <7007B36D-24DF-4BF5-8947-65DDA15599B0@gmail.com> References: <7007B36D-24DF-4BF5-8947-65DDA15599B0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20150731225713.D69F210060@che.dreamhost.com> I would suggest a Solar Edge inverter system, some lithium batteries, an Aqueon battery system, a variety of safety equipment and trying to partner with a local installation firm for site visits, and possibly hands on work. Sincerely, Glenn Burt Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. -----Original Message----- From: "Solar" Sent: ‎7/‎31/‎2015 17:05 To: "Wrenches" Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dream system. Hello all, I was recently hired to be the full time electrical instructor at a local community college. In the second year of the class there is a 6 credit "renewable energy and habitat house" course. I have been teaching at this college as an adjunct instructor since 2009 teaching for 3 of the 7 local iron ore mines,the local paper mill as well as doing most of the NEC code update courses. During that time I ran a one year and a 6 month solar PV course. I have a fairly nice lab built for the PV course consisting of the following: 2 axis tracker Fixed tilt pole mount 20'x16' mock roof with shingles and metal roofing Enphase systems (3) 700W SMA inverters Outback setup Xantrax 600v 80A charge controller Magnum 4024 inverter (AC coupled goal with this) Tigos 300W Morningstar on a demo cart Couple Solectria inverter (not used much) Trace 4024 (purchased in 99) Trace DR 1524 that goes along with our 1Kw Bergy Multiple battery brands and types AGM and flooded Pathfinders Suneye (2 210s) 600V Solmetric PVA Racking, quickmounts standoffs, clamps nuts and bolts... Modules include: 90W sunwize, Solarwolrd 175, REC 215W, silicon energy 190W, kyocera 210W, solar frontier 100W (I think 100W) AEE 95W, Dasol 15, 30, 135w. Assuming I stay with this job for the next 25 years, which will take me into my early 60s and my goal, I will have a yearly budget to spend adding to this lab. Here is the question, seeing what we have now what individual pieces would you add or what system would you build with the goal of community education or training electrical students and electricians. Long winded but I am very interested to hear your ideas! Have a good weekend and thanks! Jesse Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 31 19:57:09 2015 From: billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net (billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2015 16:57:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof In-Reply-To: References: <42AEB7A8-68B0-4222-A07F-54846DFAB1DA@ecs-solar.com> <021601d0c951$f59e7180$e0db5480$@sbcglobal.net> <028701d0c963$c7bd4680$5737d380$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <071601d0cbec$9daf82f0$d90e88d0$@sbcglobal.net> Jarmo, Your intent was laudable, but simple trigonometry just flat out fails with the complexity of solar geometry. PVWatts is so easy to use that anyone, without any knowledge of trigonometry, can use it with far more accurate results. Take advantage of nice, free software that your tax dollar paid for many years ago. Your harvest calculations don’t take into account about 20 factors that impact solar energy on a PV array. You are only looking at instantaneous sunlight at noon on a south-facing surface. There is almost nothing that we can learn from that simple of an analysis which is why we turned to simulations over 25 years ago. I have all my complex geometry sun position equations from the solar class I took in 1985, but to calculate energy from those equations requires hourly weather data and a computer—no other method will work. PVWatts does this. Use PVWatts and continue to advocate the installation of PV modules wherever they make economic sense—north, south, east, or west. Bill. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Sent: Friday, July 31, 2015 3:53 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof Hi: I went over and looked at my calculations whereby I arrived at the simple expression that the change in harvested solar energy is bounded by the sin of the angle of tilt to the North. As I was doing it however, it became clear that the reason this simple result popped up, is simply because, 1. The effect of tilting an array North is exactly the same as if the system was physically relocated farther North by that amount of degrees latitude. 2. There is a linearly decreasing amount of annual insolation which is a linear function of latitude. Latitude versus Average Annual Insolation 30 degrees latitude has 8.7 kWh-m2 40 degrees latitude has 7.8 kWh-m2 50 degrees latitude has 6.7 kWh-m2 60 degrees latitude has 5.6 kWh-m2 3. The SIN function is very linear for small angles up to about 40 degrees Angle versus sin sin(10) = 0.17 sin(20) = 0.34 sin(30) = 0.5 sin(40) = 0.64 The sin expression describing the effect of north tilt is a bounding function, whereby it bounds the maximum reduction in energy harvest as a function of tilt. It is a bounding analysis as it does not take into account the effect of atmospheric diffuse radiation which has the effect of making the "tilt loss" less than it would be if the earth had no atmosphere. For example if an array was tilted north by 40 degrees in Vancouver, with no atmosphere the modules would see no sunlight for 6 months of the year. With an atmosphere, there is still a lot of light to be gathered. Regardless, my intent with the exercise from the beginning was to find a bound for the potential "loss effect" of North tilt so that I could continue to advocate the maximum use of roof space even when that roof is North facing. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: > To: "'RE-wrenches'" >, Date: 07/28/2015 12:20 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof Sent by: "RE-wrenches" > _____ Jarmo, Unfortunately, simple is wrong in this case—and detrimental to the PV industry that needs all the roof real estate it can find. Bill. Bill Brooks, PE Principal Brooks Engineering From: RE-wrenches [ mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 10:43 AM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof Hi: Granted that the description is very simple, but that is the intent. The essence of it is that the "loss" for small variations in angle of incidence is approximately bounded by, (less than), the sin of the angle between the orientations of two panels/arrays in question. 10 degrees ---> minus 17% 20 degrees ---> minus 33% 30 degrees ---> minus 50% If you go through the detailed math and take into account atmospheric effects, especially when the sun is near the horizons, temperature, location, weather, etc., the result will vary, but will not be worse than the sin of the angle. I'll draw out better picture with more detail for Vancouver. We're at a fairly high latitude, so overall array orientation is a more sensitive factor than farther south. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Brian Mehalic < brian at solarenergy.org> To: RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>, Date: 07/28/2015 09:48 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof Sent by: "RE-wrenches" < re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org> _____ The analysis of 50% of south facing production is too simplistic; running some modeling shows that, depending on the latitude, the difference can be much smaller, approaching 25% less for the north facing. I think this layout could become more common especially on low slope commercial roofs, where the north facing module would occupy space that was already unused due to interrow shading. Of course the closer to the equator the less difference between production of the north and south arrays...and you better be careful when stringing them in series so as not to mix N and S facing..plus filling in all those gaps between rows could make servicing the array a bit problematic! Cheers, Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 PV Curriculum Developer and Instructor Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 10:24 AM, > wrote: Jarmo, The sun’s geometry is not nearly that simple. To understand the impact of north-facing arrays, you have to perform a simulation. PV:WATTS does this just fine and it is easy to show that a 18-degreed North-facing tilt produces 75% of a perfect 30-degree south-facing array. Far more than your assumption of 50%. To compare 15-degrees South to 15-degrees North, the numbers are slightly better at 77%. We are going to see a lot of north-facing arrays once people understand that low tilt angles are very forgiving on North slopes. Steep slopes are a totally different story and you have to run the numbers…. Bill. From: RE-wrenches [mailto: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 8:04 AM To: RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof I did a slide on the effect of North facing modules. For even a fairly aggressive rotation North as shown, the effect is "only" a 50% reduction. The questions of whether or not to do it, are, - is the mounting structure simpler, lower cost - security against wind - can I put a larger array on the roof (typically yes, if you make back to back pyramid shaped structures) - overall, what is the cost versus benefit JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: "Peter Parrish" < peter.parrish at calsolareng.com> To: "'RE-wrenches'" < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>, Date: 07/28/2015 12:22 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Using the North Facing Roof Sent by: "RE-wrenches" < re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org> _____ I recently read a short piece that caught me up short, and I quote: “The fast dropping cost of solar, while a huge boon to the adoption of solar PV, has counter-intuitively altered design parameters. No longer is the north-facing roof considered unusable because limited application in less-than optimal orientations can still show a positive net benefit. Arrays are thus designed now with elements or sub-arrays in these locations, increasing overall kW installation while reducing the energy production per capacity installed. This might have been anticipated based on sheer economic analysis from a users perspective, but so long has solar been expensive that these less optimal orientations were never seriously considered.” I doubt that the individual who wrote this piece came to these conclusions him/herself. Does anyone know of a recent article that argued this perspective? Is this an emerging design practice? If so, I’d like to know more about it. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave., Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _____ This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _____ This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image006.gif Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dahlsolar at gmail.com Fri Jul 31 20:54:42 2015 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Solar) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2015 19:54:42 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dream system. In-Reply-To: <20150731225713.D69F210060@che.dreamhost.com> References: <7007B36D-24DF-4BF5-8947-65DDA15599B0@gmail.com> <20150731225713.D69F210060@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: All great ideas!! We do have S-5 both for racking and the PV kit. To Great point we do cover efficiency, passive solar, load shifting... We do have internships with install companies and the utilities. We have 5 different racking types and one ballast mount for hands on work. We have 4 on campus systems all with different monitoring (Tigo, enphase, egauge and SMA) while working on the mock roof we do tie off and observe a safety procedure. We also cover OSHA regs as part of class and the students get OSHA 10. The battery ideas are good too. LION and such are needed for sure along with monitoring for those systems. I just did my first solaredge system and I agree that is a must. We also need some design software. We have the pathfinder and solmetric software we use in class and we use PVwatts and those similar to that. Much appreciated. I hope to build lab that covers as much as possible for use with students and our continuing ed electrical programs. Jesse Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 31, 2015, at 5:57 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: > > I would suggest a Solar Edge inverter system, some lithium batteries, an Aqueon battery system, a variety of safety equipment and trying to partner with a local installation firm for site visits, and possibly hands on work. > > Sincerely, > Glenn Burt > Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. > From: Solar > Sent: ‎7/‎31/‎2015 17:05 > To: Wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dream system. > > Hello all, > > I was recently hired to be the full time electrical instructor at a local community college. In the second year of the class there is a 6 credit "renewable energy and habitat house" course. I have been teaching at this college as an adjunct instructor since 2009 teaching for 3 of the 7 local iron ore mines,the local paper mill as well as doing most of the NEC code update courses. During that time I ran a one year and a 6 month solar PV course. I have a fairly nice lab built for the PV course consisting of the following: > > 2 axis tracker > Fixed tilt pole mount > 20'x16' mock roof with shingles and metal roofing > Enphase systems > (3) 700W SMA inverters > Outback setup > Xantrax 600v 80A charge controller > Magnum 4024 inverter (AC coupled goal with this) > Tigos > 300W Morningstar on a demo cart > Couple Solectria inverter (not used much) > Trace 4024 (purchased in 99) > Trace DR 1524 that goes along with our 1Kw Bergy > Multiple battery brands and types AGM and flooded > Pathfinders > Suneye (2 210s) > 600V Solmetric PVA > Racking, quickmounts standoffs, clamps nuts and bolts... > > > Modules include: 90W sunwize, Solarwolrd 175, REC 215W, silicon energy 190W, kyocera 210W, solar frontier 100W (I think 100W) AEE 95W, Dasol 15, 30, 135w. > > Assuming I stay with this job for the next 25 years, which will take me into my early 60s and my goal, I will have a yearly budget to spend adding to this lab. > > Here is the question, seeing what we have now what individual pieces would you add or what system would you build with the goal of community education or training electrical students and electricians. > > Long winded but I am very interested to hear your ideas! > > Have a good weekend and thanks! > > Jesse > > > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john at gosolar.co.nz Fri Jul 31 21:23:29 2015 From: john at gosolar.co.nz (John) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 13:23:29 +1200 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dream system. In-Reply-To: References: <7007B36D-24DF-4BF5-8947-65DDA15599B0@gmail.com> <20150731225713.D69F210060@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <005d01d0cbf8$ac966610$05c33230$@gosolar.co.nz> As well as all those other good ideas, don’t forget to teach energy efficiency/energy savings methods. Quote from Homepower, “It is easier to save a watt than it is to create one” cheers, John V. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Solar Sent: Saturday, 1 August 2015 12:55 p.m. To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Dream system. All great ideas!! We do have S-5 both for racking and the PV kit. To Great point we do cover efficiency, passive solar, load shifting... We do have internships with install companies and the utilities. We have 5 different racking types and one ballast mount for hands on work. We have 4 on campus systems all with different monitoring (Tigo, enphase, egauge and SMA) while working on the mock roof we do tie off and observe a safety procedure. We also cover OSHA regs as part of class and the students get OSHA 10. The battery ideas are good too. LION and such are needed for sure along with monitoring for those systems. I just did my first solaredge system and I agree that is a must. We also need some design software. We have the pathfinder and solmetric software we use in class and we use PVwatts and those similar to that. Much appreciated. I hope to build lab that covers as much as possible for use with students and our continuing ed electrical programs. Jesse Sent from my iPhone On Jul 31, 2015, at 5:57 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: I would suggest a Solar Edge inverter system, some lithium batteries, an Aqueon battery system, a variety of safety equipment and trying to partner with a local installation firm for site visits, and possibly hands on work. Sincerely, Glenn Burt Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. _____ From: Solar Sent: ‎7/‎31/‎2015 17:05 To: Wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dream system. Hello all, I was recently hired to be the full time electrical instructor at a local community college. In the second year of the class there is a 6 credit "renewable energy and habitat house" course. I have been teaching at this college as an adjunct instructor since 2009 teaching for 3 of the 7 local iron ore mines,the local paper mill as well as doing most of the NEC code update courses. During that time I ran a one year and a 6 month solar PV course. I have a fairly nice lab built for the PV course consisting of the following: 2 axis tracker Fixed tilt pole mount 20'x16' mock roof with shingles and metal roofing Enphase systems (3) 700W SMA inverters Outback setup Xantrax 600v 80A charge controller Magnum 4024 inverter (AC coupled goal with this) Tigos 300W Morningstar on a demo cart Couple Solectria inverter (not used much) Trace 4024 (purchased in 99) Trace DR 1524 that goes along with our 1Kw Bergy Multiple battery brands and types AGM and flooded Pathfinders Suneye (2 210s) 600V Solmetric PVA Racking, quickmounts standoffs, clamps nuts and bolts... Modules include: 90W sunwize, Solarwolrd 175, REC 215W, silicon energy 190W, kyocera 210W, solar frontier 100W (I think 100W) AEE 95W, Dasol 15, 30, 135w. Assuming I stay with this job for the next 25 years, which will take me into my early 60s and my goal, I will have a yearly budget to spend adding to this lab. Here is the question, seeing what we have now what individual pieces would you add or what system would you build with the goal of community education or training electrical students and electricians. Long winded but I am very interested to hear your ideas! Have a good weekend and thanks! Jesse Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at harvesthesun.com Sat Aug 1 10:59:15 2015 From: eric at harvesthesun.com (SunHarvest) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 07:59:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dream system. In-Reply-To: References: <7007B36D-24DF-4BF5-8947-65DDA15599B0@gmail.com> <20150731225713.D69F210060@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <97024C23-8963-4733-9A0D-A9E696B4C98C@harvesthesun.com> How 'bout a Tesla Powerwall? That way you can test it out first and let us know how it goes :) Got any flexible, multi-application thin film out there? How about PV-direct water pumping? That's going to be a hot topic for us in Cali. here pretty shortly. Sounds like a great gig you have there. Thanks for being a solar educator and spreading the good word. Eric Stikes GoodSun Solar, A 501(c)(3) CA. Non-profit Corp. 001.530.798.3738 (cell) www.goodsun.life > On Jul 31, 2015, at 5:54 PM, Solar wrote: > > All great ideas!! > > We do have S-5 both for racking and the PV kit. To Great point we do cover efficiency, passive solar, load shifting... We do have internships with install companies and the utilities. We have 5 different racking types and one ballast mount for hands on work. We have 4 on campus systems all with different monitoring (Tigo, enphase, egauge and SMA) while working on the mock roof we do tie off and observe a safety procedure. We also cover OSHA regs as part of class and the students get OSHA 10. > > The battery ideas are good too. LION and such are needed for sure along with monitoring for those systems. I just did my first solaredge system and I agree that is a must. > > We also need some design software. We have the pathfinder and solmetric software we use in class and we use PVwatts and those similar to that. > > Much appreciated. I hope to build lab that covers as much as possible for use with students and our continuing ed electrical programs. > > Jesse > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jul 31, 2015, at 5:57 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: >> >> I would suggest a Solar Edge inverter system, some lithium batteries, an Aqueon battery system, a variety of safety equipment and trying to partner with a local installation firm for site visits, and possibly hands on work. >> >> Sincerely, >> Glenn Burt >> Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. >> From: Solar >> Sent: ‎7/‎31/‎2015 17:05 >> To: Wrenches >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dream system. >> >> Hello all, >> >> I was recently hired to be the full time electrical instructor at a local community college. In the second year of the class there is a 6 credit "renewable energy and habitat house" course. I have been teaching at this college as an adjunct instructor since 2009 teaching for 3 of the 7 local iron ore mines,the local paper mill as well as doing most of the NEC code update courses. During that time I ran a one year and a 6 month solar PV course. I have a fairly nice lab built for the PV course consisting of the following: >> >> 2 axis tracker >> Fixed tilt pole mount >> 20'x16' mock roof with shingles and metal roofing >> Enphase systems >> (3) 700W SMA inverters >> Outback setup >> Xantrax 600v 80A charge controller >> Magnum 4024 inverter (AC coupled goal with this) >> Tigos >> 300W Morningstar on a demo cart >> Couple Solectria inverter (not used much) >> Trace 4024 (purchased in 99) >> Trace DR 1524 that goes along with our 1Kw Bergy >> Multiple battery brands and types AGM and flooded >> Pathfinders >> Suneye (2 210s) >> 600V Solmetric PVA >> Racking, quickmounts standoffs, clamps nuts and bolts... >> >> >> Modules include: 90W sunwize, Solarwolrd 175, REC 215W, silicon energy 190W, kyocera 210W, solar frontier 100W (I think 100W) AEE 95W, Dasol 15, 30, 135w. >> >> Assuming I stay with this job for the next 25 years, which will take me into my early 60s and my goal, I will have a yearly budget to spend adding to this lab. >> >> Here is the question, seeing what we have now what individual pieces would you add or what system would you build with the goal of community education or training electrical students and electricians. >> >> Long winded but I am very interested to hear your ideas! >> >> Have a good weekend and thanks! >> >> Jesse >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dahlsolar at gmail.com Sat Aug 1 11:48:26 2015 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Solar) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 10:48:26 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] co-op rules. Message-ID: <245CD51B-1E2A-4835-A4E3-296046F49159@gmail.com> Hello all, I was at a get together lastnight and was taking to one of the higher ups at my electrical co-op. He informed me that effective now they will not allow any member to interconnect a renewable energy system that has the potential to create more than 50% of their monthly electrical usage. Are any of you seeing a similar rule? He told me "everyone is going to this now". Jesse Sent from my iPhone From reellison at gmail.com Sat Aug 1 12:07:02 2015 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 12:07:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] co-op rules. In-Reply-To: <245CD51B-1E2A-4835-A4E3-296046F49159@gmail.com> References: <245CD51B-1E2A-4835-A4E3-296046F49159@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000601d0cc74$1b4c4400$51e4cc00$@com> What happens in July when most overproduce and in December when we are way under production? I think if they are talking averages it might be ok but otherwise it is a problem. Didn't co-op's used to be excluded from net metering anyway? Just thinking, Bob -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Solar Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2015 11:48 AM To: Wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] co-op rules. Hello all, I was at a get together lastnight and was taking to one of the higher ups at my electrical co-op. He informed me that effective now they will not allow any member to interconnect a renewable energy system that has the potential to create more than 50% of their monthly electrical usage. Are any of you seeing a similar rule? He told me "everyone is going to this now". Jesse Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From darren at self.org Sat Aug 1 12:45:20 2015 From: darren at self.org (Darren Anderson) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 16:45:20 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island FSPC Message-ID: <2146C9025D3D3845BB0D80BB8662CAEB1C706E@AUSP01DAG0304.collaborationhost.net> Anyone know if the Sunny Island's Frequency Shift Power Control only shifts the frequency in the positive direction as indicated in the manual (ex. +1 Hz to 61 Hz for the fAC Start Delta). Or can it also shift the frequency down? I'm getting 59 Hz output on a remote system and it's screwing with some other components. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com Sat Aug 1 14:08:43 2015 From: solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com (SES) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 11:08:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] co-op rules. In-Reply-To: <000601d0cc74$1b4c4400$51e4cc00$@com> References: <245CD51B-1E2A-4835-A4E3-296046F49159@gmail.com> <000601d0cc74$1b4c4400$51e4cc00$@com> Message-ID: <4571CA3E-C2A4-45B4-B5E4-42C629457E98@yahoo.com> Up here and Portland General Electric land and according to our net metering laws we are allowed to produce as much energy as we consume in a years time. March 1 is the annual trueout point. If you produces more than you consume over the course of the year that extra power is lost to PGE. You are only allowed to design systems that are 98% of your last years energy consumption. The net metering model is ridiculous because it discourages further conservation. I believe the technical solution to global climate change is the financial model that has most rapidly integrated solar within those countries that have adopted a "Feed In Tariff" model. The solar industry should be fighting with everything they have to resist any restrictions on solar systems on businesses and residences. This would include any restrictions on the amount of power that can be produced and the footprint available to residential solar. Any Compromise at this point would be self-defeating. > Andrew Koyaanisqatsi > President > Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. > Since 1987, > Moving Portland and Beyond > to an Environmentally Sustainable Future. > 503-238-4502 > www.SolarEnergyOregon.com > "Better one's House too little one day > than too big all the Year after." > > On Aug 1, 2015, at 9:07 AM, RE Ellison wrote: > > What happens in July when most overproduce and in December when we are way > under production? > I think if they are talking averages it might be ok but otherwise it is a > problem. > > Didn't co-op's used to be excluded from net metering anyway? > > Just thinking, > Bob > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Solar > Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2015 11:48 AM > To: Wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] co-op rules. > > Hello all, > > I was at a get together lastnight and was taking to one of the higher ups at > my electrical co-op. He informed me that effective now they will not allow > any member to interconnect a renewable energy system that has the potential > to create more than 50% of their monthly electrical usage. > > Are any of you seeing a similar rule? He told me "everyone is going to this > now". > > Jesse > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rebecca.lundberg at powerfullygreen.com Sat Aug 1 14:13:49 2015 From: rebecca.lundberg at powerfullygreen.com (Rebecca Lundberg) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 13:13:49 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] co-op rules Message-ID: Jesse, This would be against current MN state law. Who were you talking to? They can say whatever they want, but that doesn't make it true. No utilities in MN are exempt from net-metering, and except for when you are trying to access a rare incentive program, you can install up to a 40 kW system with no limitations on size. Many in our local solar industry are working together to make sure utilities don't dissuade customers or try to enforce rules that go beyond what state law allows. The State Dept of Commerce and MnSEIA are compiling many complaints similar to this, so we can work together to combat this sort of thing. I would encourage you to be in communication with both of these entities. Sincerely, Rebecca Lundberg NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer ® Owner/President *Powerfully Green*® 763.438.1976 | Rebecca.Lundberg at PowerfullyGreen.com Powered by the Sun! > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 10:48:26 -0500 > From: Solar > To: Wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] co-op rules. > Message-ID: <245CD51B-1E2A-4835-A4E3-296046F49159 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Hello all, > > I was at a get together lastnight and was taking to one of the higher ups > at my electrical co-op. He informed me that effective now they will not > allow any member to interconnect a renewable energy system that has the > potential to create more than 50% of their monthly electrical usage. > > Are any of you seeing a similar rule? He told me "everyone is going to > this now". > > Jesse > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dahlsolar at gmail.com Sat Aug 1 16:17:13 2015 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Solar) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 15:17:13 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] co-op rules. In-Reply-To: <000601d0cc74$1b4c4400$51e4cc00$@com> References: <245CD51B-1E2A-4835-A4E3-296046F49159@gmail.com> <000601d0cc74$1b4c4400$51e4cc00$@com> Message-ID: Good point on average numbers. Maybe that's what he meant, it isn't what he said. When I asked how many members were interconnected and produced over the 50% number he said "one". Rules for problems that don't exist. With no rebates given by the coops the chances anyone can find it feasible to do something like this is 0. Maybe I could since I don't have labor costs, but other than that. This coop, of which I am a member, does participate in net metering. Here is a link to future of solar here in mn. For the coops at least. http://www.mprnews.org/story/2015/06/18/grid-fees Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 1, 2015, at 11:07 AM, "RE Ellison" wrote: > > What happens in July when most overproduce and in December when we are way > under production? > I think if they are talking averages it might be ok but otherwise it is a > problem. > > Didn't co-op's used to be excluded from net metering anyway? > > Just thinking, > Bob > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Solar > Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2015 11:48 AM > To: Wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] co-op rules. > > Hello all, > > I was at a get together lastnight and was taking to one of the higher ups at > my electrical co-op. He informed me that effective now they will not allow > any member to interconnect a renewable energy system that has the potential > to create more than 50% of their monthly electrical usage. > > Are any of you seeing a similar rule? He told me "everyone is going to this > now". > > Jesse > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From dahlsolar at gmail.com Sat Aug 1 16:18:24 2015 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Solar) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 15:18:24 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] co-op rules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You thinking IOU I think. The coops are exempt from these rules. I was taking to the one of the head cheeses at the coop, who is a friend and shall remain nameless. Jesse Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 1, 2015, at 1:13 PM, Rebecca Lundberg wrote: > > Jesse, > > This would be against current MN state law. Who were you talking to? > > They can say whatever they want, but that doesn't make it true. No utilities in MN are exempt from net-metering, and except for when you are trying to access a rare incentive program, you can install up to a 40 kW system with no limitations on size. Many in our local solar industry are working together to make sure utilities don't dissuade customers or try to enforce rules that go beyond what state law allows. The State Dept of Commerce and MnSEIA are compiling many complaints similar to this, so we can work together to combat this sort of thing. I would encourage you to be in communication with both of these entities. > > Sincerely, > > Rebecca Lundberg > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer ® > Owner/President > Powerfully Green® > 763.438.1976 | Rebecca.Lundberg at PowerfullyGreen.com > Powered by the Sun! > > >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 10:48:26 -0500 >> From: Solar >> To: Wrenches >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] co-op rules. >> Message-ID: <245CD51B-1E2A-4835-A4E3-296046F49159 at gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> >> Hello all, >> >> I was at a get together lastnight and was taking to one of the higher ups at my electrical co-op. He informed me that effective now they will not allow any member to interconnect a renewable energy system that has the potential to create more than 50% of their monthly electrical usage. >> >> Are any of you seeing a similar rule? He told me "everyone is going to this now". >> >> Jesse >> >> Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Sat Aug 1 19:49:51 2015 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (Peter Giroux) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 19:49:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dream system. References: <7007B36D-24DF-4BF5-8947-65DDA15599B0@gmail.com><20150731225713.D69F210060@che.dreamhost.com> <97024C23-8963-4733-9A0D-A9E696B4C98C@harvesthesun.com> Message-ID: <3905BC3568634808817C40CD2F88144C@PeterPC> We now have a PV-direct water pump solution for pool pumps, Polaris vacuum and well pumps up to 2 HP. The 1 HP solution is 4 250 watt panels into a device that takes the DC and creates 208 3-phase. Replace the pump motor with a 208 motor and off one goes. The HP of the pump dictates the # of panels needed. We like it here in the south as Utilities try to limit the size of residential PV and lots of folks have pools. The pump solution is stand alone, does not feed back to the grid making it outside the guidelines. The biggest positive is we often have prospects that do not want to write a check for a large system but will for the pool offset, making them great prospects a year or two later when they have tasted the power bill savings We are also starting to use the solution for chicken houses and the high volume fans that pull air through the chicken houses. Always something new :) Peter Giroux American Solar & Alternative Energy Solutions ----- Original Message ----- From: SunHarvest To: RE-wrenches Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2015 10:59 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Dream system. How 'bout a Tesla Powerwall? That way you can test it out first and let us know how it goes :) Got any flexible, multi-application thin film out there? How about PV-direct water pumping? That's going to be a hot topic for us in Cali. here pretty shortly. Sounds like a great gig you have there. Thanks for being a solar educator and spreading the good word. Eric Stikes GoodSun Solar, A 501(c)(3) CA. Non-profit Corp. 001.530.798.3738 (cell) www.goodsun.life On Jul 31, 2015, at 5:54 PM, Solar wrote: All great ideas!! We do have S-5 both for racking and the PV kit. To Great point we do cover efficiency, passive solar, load shifting... We do have internships with install companies and the utilities. We have 5 different racking types and one ballast mount for hands on work. We have 4 on campus systems all with different monitoring (Tigo, enphase, egauge and SMA) while working on the mock roof we do tie off and observe a safety procedure. We also cover OSHA regs as part of class and the students get OSHA 10. The battery ideas are good too. LION and such are needed for sure along with monitoring for those systems. I just did my first solaredge system and I agree that is a must. We also need some design software. We have the pathfinder and solmetric software we use in class and we use PVwatts and those similar to that. Much appreciated. I hope to build lab that covers as much as possible for use with students and our continuing ed electrical programs. Jesse Sent from my iPhone On Jul 31, 2015, at 5:57 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: I would suggest a Solar Edge inverter system, some lithium batteries, an Aqueon battery system, a variety of safety equipment and trying to partner with a local installation firm for site visits, and possibly hands on work. Sincerely, Glenn Burt Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Solar Sent: ‎7/‎31/‎2015 17:05 To: Wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dream system. Hello all, I was recently hired to be the full time electrical instructor at a local community college. In the second year of the class there is a 6 credit "renewable energy and habitat house" course. I have been teaching at this college as an adjunct instructor since 2009 teaching for 3 of the 7 local iron ore mines,the local paper mill as well as doing most of the NEC code update courses. During that time I ran a one year and a 6 month solar PV course. I have a fairly nice lab built for the PV course consisting of the following: 2 axis tracker Fixed tilt pole mount 20'x16' mock roof with shingles and metal roofing Enphase systems (3) 700W SMA inverters Outback setup Xantrax 600v 80A charge controller Magnum 4024 inverter (AC coupled goal with this) Tigos 300W Morningstar on a demo cart Couple Solectria inverter (not used much) Trace 4024 (purchased in 99) Trace DR 1524 that goes along with our 1Kw Bergy Multiple battery brands and types AGM and flooded Pathfinders Suneye (2 210s) 600V Solmetric PVA Racking, quickmounts standoffs, clamps nuts and bolts... Modules include: 90W sunwize, Solarwolrd 175, REC 215W, silicon energy 190W, kyocera 210W, solar frontier 100W (I think 100W) AEE 95W, Dasol 15, 30, 135w. Assuming I stay with this job for the next 25 years, which will take me into my early 60s and my goal, I will have a yearly budget to spend adding to this lab. Here is the question, seeing what we have now what individual pieces would you add or what system would you build with the goal of community education or training electrical students and electricians. Long winded but I am very interested to hear your ideas! Have a good weekend and thanks! Jesse Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tom at wagonmaker.com Sat Aug 1 20:07:02 2015 From: tom at wagonmaker.com (Tom at wagonmaker) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2015 14:07:02 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dream system. In-Reply-To: References: <7007B36D-24DF-4BF5-8947-65DDA15599B0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <28C6370C8B56422E9A20D06ADF7305BF@TomsHP> Jesse, I’d also add a good buss bar connection system for your battery banks, maybe even do one set of series/parallel connections (old way) across the bank and one set of connections with the series strings interconnected through buss bars rather than direct string to string. Much better battery life that way and the more people that learn to do it with buss bars from the beginning the better. Tom Elliot From: Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Sent: Friday, July 31, 2015 11:29 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Dream system. Hi: I would add, 1. Battery Monitoring with logging capability 2. Remote monitoring and control over the web 3. Lion battery and battery manager, (open format manager circuits so that it can be seen how things work). 4. GFCI's and ELCI's on AC circuits 5. Generator and automatic generator start controller If you suggestions on specific models, contact me offline JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Solar To: Wrenches , Date: 07/31/2015 02:05 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dream system. Sent by: "RE-wrenches" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hello all, I was recently hired to be the full time electrical instructor at a local community college. In the second year of the class there is a 6 credit "renewable energy and habitat house" course. I have been teaching at this college as an adjunct instructor since 2009 teaching for 3 of the 7 local iron ore mines,the local paper mill as well as doing most of the NEC code update courses. During that time I ran a one year and a 6 month solar PV course. I have a fairly nice lab built for the PV course consisting of the following: 2 axis tracker Fixed tilt pole mount 20'x16' mock roof with shingles and metal roofing Enphase systems (3) 700W SMA inverters Outback setup Xantrax 600v 80A charge controller Magnum 4024 inverter (AC coupled goal with this) Tigos 300W Morningstar on a demo cart Couple Solectria inverter (not used much) Trace 4024 (purchased in 99) Trace DR 1524 that goes along with our 1Kw Bergy Multiple battery brands and types AGM and flooded Pathfinders Suneye (2 210s) 600V Solmetric PVA Racking, quickmounts standoffs, clamps nuts and bolts... Modules include: 90W sunwize, Solarwolrd 175, REC 215W, silicon energy 190W, kyocera 210W, solar frontier 100W (I think 100W) AEE 95W, Dasol 15, 30, 135w. Assuming I stay with this job for the next 25 years, which will take me into my early 60s and my goal, I will have a yearly budget to spend adding to this lab. Here is the question, seeing what we have now what individual pieces would you add or what system would you build with the goal of community education or training electrical students and electricians. Long winded but I am very interested to hear your ideas! Have a good weekend and thanks! Jesse Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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In-Reply-To: <28C6370C8B56422E9A20D06ADF7305BF@TomsHP> References: <7007B36D-24DF-4BF5-8947-65DDA15599B0@gmail.com> <28C6370C8B56422E9A20D06ADF7305BF@TomsHP> Message-ID: That's a great idea. We have buss bar in our parts room. Good lesson on buss bar sizing and install. Compare and contrast the two methods. Thanks! Jesse Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 1, 2015, at 7:07 PM, "Tom at wagonmaker" wrote: > > Jesse, > > I’d also add a good buss bar connection system for your battery banks, maybe even do one set of series/parallel connections (old way) across the bank and one set of connections with the series strings interconnected through buss bars rather than direct string to string. Much better battery life that way and the more people that learn to do it with buss bars from the beginning the better. > > Tom Elliot > > From: Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com > Sent: Friday, July 31, 2015 11:29 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Dream system. > > Hi: > > I would add, > > 1. Battery Monitoring with logging capability > 2. Remote monitoring and control over the web > 3. Lion battery and battery manager, (open format manager circuits so that it can be seen how things work). > 4. GFCI's and ELCI's on AC circuits > 5. Generator and automatic generator start controller > > If you suggestions on specific models, contact me offline > > JARMO > _____________________________________________________________________________________ > > Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer > Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 > Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 > > > > > > *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail > > > > From: Solar > To: Wrenches , > Date: 07/31/2015 02:05 PM > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dream system. > Sent by: "RE-wrenches" > > > > > Hello all, > > I was recently hired to be the full time electrical instructor at a local community college. In the second year of the class there is a 6 credit "renewable energy and habitat house" course. I have been teaching at this college as an adjunct instructor since 2009 teaching for 3 of the 7 local iron ore mines,the local paper mill as well as doing most of the NEC code update courses. During that time I ran a one year and a 6 month solar PV course. I have a fairly nice lab built for the PV course consisting of the following: > > 2 axis tracker > Fixed tilt pole mount > 20'x16' mock roof with shingles and metal roofing > Enphase systems > (3) 700W SMA inverters > Outback setup > Xantrax 600v 80A charge controller > Magnum 4024 inverter (AC coupled goal with this) > Tigos > 300W Morningstar on a demo cart > Couple Solectria inverter (not used much) > Trace 4024 (purchased in 99) > Trace DR 1524 that goes along with our 1Kw Bergy > Multiple battery brands and types AGM and flooded > Pathfinders > Suneye (2 210s) > 600V Solmetric PVA > Racking, quickmounts standoffs, clamps nuts and bolts... > > > Modules include: 90W sunwize, Solarwolrd 175, REC 215W, silicon energy 190W, kyocera 210W, solar frontier 100W (I think 100W) AEE 95W, Dasol 15, 30, 135w. > > Assuming I stay with this job for the next 25 years, which will take me into my early 60s and my goal, I will have a yearly budget to spend adding to this lab. > > Here is the question, seeing what we have now what individual pieces would you add or what system would you build with the goal of community education or training electrical students and electricians. > > Long winded but I am very interested to hear your ideas! > > Have a good weekend and thanks! > > Jesse > > > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Mon Aug 3 16:47:07 2015 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2015 16:47:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island FSPC In-Reply-To: <2146C9025D3D3845BB0D80BB8662CAEB1C706E@AUSP01DAG0304.collaborationhost.net> References: <2146C9025D3D3845BB0D80BB8662CAEB1C706E@AUSP01DAG0304.collaborationhost.net> Message-ID: <3CD0ADDC-8307-4632-978E-B5365B61F33B@swnl.net> The SI shifts both ways in order to adjust the SB inverters if installed. Output Hzs WILL shift. Turn off your SB inverters and check the hz this should verify your base line hz @60 cycles. please feel free to contact me off list if you need to. Tump On Aug 1, 2015, at 12:45 PM, Darren Anderson wrote: > Anyone know if the Sunny Island’s Frequency Shift Power Control only shifts the frequency in the positive direction as indicated in the manual (ex. +1 Hz to 61 Hz for the fAC Start Delta). Or can it also shift the frequency down? I’m getting 59 Hz output on a remote system and it’s screwing with some other components. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william.miller at millersolar.com Tue Aug 4 16:29:35 2015 From: william.miller at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2015 13:29:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] APT Beaker In-Reply-To: References: <3F01181E-86D6-4172-B97E-E506D94E1107@millersolar.com> Message-ID: <033301d0cef4$53fd36b0$fbf7a410$@millersolar.com> Jay: I am not an AEE dealer so I cannot even access the catalog. Are you a dealer, or is anyone else on this list? Can you look up this part number? CF1-H3-U CF1--H3- U-0060-01C This breaker mounts on a bulkhead and has lugs in and out. The value is 60 amps. Thanks, William Miller Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2015 8:45 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] APT Beaker HI William, AEE carries them. Pg 173, CF/GJ breakers. jay > On Jul 18, 2015, at 3:58 AM, William Miller wrote: > > Friends: > > I am adding an MPPT charge controller to a functioning APT power center. I need one breaker for the job. The breakers are like those used in the Trace DC250 cabinets but surface mount. Where do I look for one of these, please? > > Thank you very much. > > William > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From william.miller at millersolar.com Tue Aug 4 16:37:29 2015 From: william.miller at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2015 13:37:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] APT Beaker Message-ID: <034f01d0cef5$633b1470$29b13d50$@millersolar.com> Jay: I am not an AEE dealer so I cannot even access the catalog. Are you a dealer, or is anyone else on this list? Can you look up this part number? CF1-H3-U CF1--H3- U-0060-01C This breaker mounts on a bulkhead and has lugs in and out. The value is 60 amps. Thanks, William Miller Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2015 8:45 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] APT Beaker HI William, AEE carries them. Pg 173, CF/GJ breakers. jay > On Jul 18, 2015, at 3:58 AM, William Miller wrote: > > Friends: > > I am adding an MPPT charge controller to a functioning APT power center. I need one breaker for the job. The breakers are like those used in the Trace DC250 cabinets but surface mount. Where do I look for one of these, please? > > Thank you very much. > > William > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From william.miller at millersolar.com Tue Aug 4 16:55:55 2015 From: william.miller at millersolar.com (william.miller at millersolar.com) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2015 13:55:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] APT Beaker Message-ID: <037a01d0cef7$f64cd9e0$e2e68da0$@millersolar.com> Jay: I am not an AEE dealer so I cannot even access the catalog. Are you a dealer, or is anyone else on this list? Can you look up this part number? CF1-H3-U CF1--H3- U-0060-01C This breaker mounts on a bulkhead and has lugs in and out. The value is 60 amps. Thanks, William Miller Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2015 8:45 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] APT Beaker HI William, AEE carries them. Pg 173, CF/GJ breakers. jay > On Jul 18, 2015, at 3:58 AM, William Miller wrote: > > Friends: > > I am adding an MPPT charge controller to a functioning APT power center. I need one breaker for the job. The breakers are like those used in the Trace DC250 cabinets but surface mount. Where do I look for one of these, please? > > Thank you very much. > > William > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com Tue Aug 4 17:47:22 2015 From: bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com (Brian Teitelbaum) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2015 14:47:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] APT Beaker In-Reply-To: <037a01d0cef7$f64cd9e0$e2e68da0$@millersolar.com> References: <037a01d0cef7$f64cd9e0$e2e68da0$@millersolar.com> Message-ID: Hi William, The AEE Catalog is available for viewing online by anyone, even if they are not an AEE dealer. Just go to the AEE website (aeesolar.com), click on "Browse our products", enter your name and email address, and hit "submit". It's a big file (26MB), so it might take a little time. Brian Teitelbaum AEE Solar -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of william.miller at millersolar.com Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 1:56 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] APT Beaker Jay: I am not an AEE dealer so I cannot even access the catalog. Are you a dealer, or is anyone else on this list? Can you look up this part number? CF1-H3-U CF1--H3- U-0060-01C This breaker mounts on a bulkhead and has lugs in and out. The value is 60 amps. Thanks, William Miller Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2015 8:45 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] APT Beaker HI William, AEE carries them. Pg 173, CF/GJ breakers. jay > On Jul 18, 2015, at 3:58 AM, William Miller wrote: > > Friends: > > I am adding an MPPT charge controller to a functioning APT power > center. I need one breaker for the job. The breakers are like those used in the Trace DC250 cabinets but surface mount. Where do I look for one of these, please? > > Thank you very much. > > William > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htm l > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htm l List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htm l List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From chris at OasisMontana.com Wed Aug 5 16:49:59 2015 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (Chris Daum) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2015 14:49:59 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] weather protection for PV Message-ID: Wrenches: I'm trying to help a student who's doing some research; here's his request: Do you have something of the literature on the "Concept of the system for protection against hail tracking/moving PV power plants" (desirable and protection from the snow; and wind). The respective literature I need so that I could write a seminar and thus lay the course Project- power plants at the Technical University. This is literature that I found: http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1274657 , but i need a little more information about "system protection, as well as system control and external anti-interference measures. External interference includes weather influences, such as wind, sand, rain, snow, hail, and salt damage"->this text is from the link above. Well folks? Do you know of any such information or links? Please reply off list. Sincerely, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 406-777-0830 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Steve.Jefferson at sma-america.com Wed Aug 5 13:05:36 2015 From: Steve.Jefferson at sma-america.com (Steve Jefferson) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2015 17:05:36 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island FSPC In-Reply-To: <2146C9025D3D3845BB0D80BB8662CAEB1C706E@AUSP01DAG0304.collaborationhost.net> References: <2146C9025D3D3845BB0D80BB8662CAEB1C706E@AUSP01DAG0304.collaborationhost.net> Message-ID: <41FE255D65D554478C3B17F3EB5410EF913E6AA0@SVR-US-EXMBX-01.sma.de> The Sunny Island only shifts in the positive direction to limit the Sunny Boys output. What components are having issues? You can contact me offline to discuss. Thanks SMA America, LLC Steve Jefferson Service Line Supervisor 3925 Atherton Ave Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714 U.S.A. Tel: +1 916 625 3185 (direct) Fax: +1 916 625 0871 Mobile: +1 916 622 4253 Email: Steve.jefferson at SMA-America.com www.SMA-America.com [cid:image001.png at 01CF1CFA.FE18BEB0] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Darren Anderson Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2015 9:45 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island FSPC Anyone know if the Sunny Island's Frequency Shift Power Control only shifts the frequency in the positive direction as indicated in the manual (ex. +1 Hz to 61 Hz for the fAC Start Delta). Or can it also shift the frequency down? I'm getting 59 Hz output on a remote system and it's screwing with some other components. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 30736 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Wed Aug 5 17:19:32 2015 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2015 15:19:32 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] weather protection for PV In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B1D5C08-9033-4A60-B4DF-9E0DA3A076B3@skyfireenergy.com> Chris, Regarding your "reply off list" request, I think this is relevant info to wrenches. If not, then I'd be interested in any info/links you receive, please. Since this is educational I suggest he may have some luck if he were contact various module manufacturers requesting info from them directly on their (industry) testing requirements and procedures for hail, specifically, and also against moisture (rain, snow) and structural (wind). I'd guess that if he requested info on protection from wind, from rack mfgrs, they would direct him to a structural engineer for wind loading. Although they may provide some info on their design and structural tolerances. Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 > On Aug 5, 2015, at 2:49 PM, "Chris Daum" wrote: > > Wrenches: > > I'm trying to help a student who's doing some research; here's his request: > > Do you have something of the literature on the "Concept of the system for protection against hail tracking/moving PV power plants" (desirable and protection from the snow; and wind). The respective literature I need so that I could write a seminar and thus lay the course Project- power plants at the Technical University. This is literature that I found: http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1274657 , but i need a little more information about "system protection, as well as system control and external anti-interference measures. External interference includes weather influences, such as wind, sand, rain, snow, hail, and salt damage"->this text is from the link above. > > Well folks? Do you know of any such information or links? Please reply off list. > > Sincerely, > > Chris Daum > Oasis Montana Inc. > 406-777-4309 > 406-777-0830 fax > www.oasismontana.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed Aug 5 17:35:37 2015 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2015 17:35:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island FSPC In-Reply-To: <41FE255D65D554478C3B17F3EB5410EF913E6AA0@SVR-US-EXMBX-01.sma.de> References: <2146C9025D3D3845BB0D80BB8662CAEB1C706E@AUSP01DAG0304.collaborationhost.net> <41FE255D65D554478C3B17F3EB5410EF913E6AA0@SVR-US-EXMBX-01.sma.de> Message-ID: <20150805213547.8435510708@che.dreamhost.com> Again, conflicting information, as I was told by an SMA trainer that the SI will run the shifted frequency in the opposite direction to allow electronics that use the zero crossing to recover, like clocks. Sincerely, Glenn Burt Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. -----Original Message----- From: "Steve Jefferson" Sent: ‎8/‎5/‎2015 13:05 To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island FSPC The Sunny Island only shifts in the positive direction to limit the Sunny Boys output. What components are having issues? You can contact me offline to discuss. Thanks SMA America, LLC Steve Jefferson Service Line Supervisor 3925 Atherton Ave Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714 U.S.A. Tel: +1 916 625 3185 (direct) Fax: +1 916 625 0871 Mobile: +1 916 622 4253 Email: Steve.jefferson at SMA-America.com www.SMA-America.com [cid:image001.png at 01CF1CFA.FE18BEB0] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Darren Anderson Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2015 9:45 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island FSPC Anyone know if the Sunny Island's Frequency Shift Power Control only shifts the frequency in the positive direction as indicated in the manual (ex. +1 Hz to 61 Hz for the fAC Start Delta). Or can it also shift the frequency down? I'm getting 59 Hz output on a remote system and it's screwing with some other components. [The entire original message is not included.] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Steve.Jefferson at sma-america.com Wed Aug 5 18:03:45 2015 From: Steve.Jefferson at sma-america.com (Steve Jefferson) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2015 22:03:45 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island FSPC In-Reply-To: <20150805213547.8435510708@che.dreamhost.com> References: <2146C9025D3D3845BB0D80BB8662CAEB1C706E@AUSP01DAG0304.collaborationhost.net> <41FE255D65D554478C3B17F3EB5410EF913E6AA0@SVR-US-EXMBX-01.sma.de> <20150805213547.8435510708@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <41FE255D65D554478C3B17F3EB5410EF913E7E0A@SVR-US-EXMBX-01.sma.de> That is correct. That is the AFC (automatic frequency control) function, or also called Tertiary regulation. From the manual: Clocks that depend on the stability of the grid frequency for their accuracy become increasingly Inaccurate when there are constant frequency deviations. Frequency fluctuations, i.e., deviations from The nominal frequency, occur, for example, in off-grid power systems that operate with a diesel Generator. The ”Automatic Frequency Control (AFC)” (German: AFRA) function of the Sunny Island allows the use of clocks in these types of off-grid power systems. This function is activated using the ”250.11 AfraEna” parameter. The time deviation is compensated on average. I believed the OP asked about FSPC, which only is in a positive direction from baseline Frequency. What are the appliances that are having issues? I am aware of fixes for certain types of issues. Some tweaks can be done in both the SI and SB to help with external issues. Thanks SMA America, LLC Steve Jefferson Service Line Supervisor 3925 Atherton Ave Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714 U.S.A. Tel: +1 916 625 3185 (direct) Fax: +1 916 625 0871 Mobile: +1 916 622 4253 Email: Steve.jefferson at SMA-America.com www.SMA-America.com [cid:image001.png at 01CF1CFA.FE18BEB0] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 2:36 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island FSPC Again, conflicting information, as I was told by an SMA trainer that the SI will run the shifted frequency in the opposite direction to allow electronics that use the zero crossing to recover, like clocks. Sincerely, Glenn Burt Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. ________________________________ From: Steve Jefferson Sent: ‎8/‎5/‎2015 13:05 To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island FSPC The Sunny Island only shifts in the positive direction to limit the Sunny Boys output. What components are having issues? You can contact me offline to discuss. Thanks SMA America, LLC Steve Jefferson Service Line Supervisor 3925 Atherton Ave Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714 U.S.A. Tel: +1 916 625 3185 (direct) Fax: +1 916 625 0871 Mobile: +1 916 622 4253 Email: Steve.jefferson at SMA-America.com www.SMA-America.com [cid:image001.png at 01CF1CFA.FE18BEB0] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Darren Anderson Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2015 9:45 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island FSPC Anyone know if the Sunny Island’s Frequency Shift Power Control only shifts the frequency in the positive direction as indicated in the manual (ex. +1 Hz to 61 Hz for the fAC Start Delta). Or can it also shift the frequency down? I’m getting 59 Hz output on a remote system and it’s screwing with some other components. [The entire original message is not included.] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 30736 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: From william.miller at millersolar.com Wed Aug 5 18:30:55 2015 From: william.miller at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2015 15:30:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flashed Roof-attachment systems Message-ID: <094d01d0cfce$66c3b960$344b2c20$@millersolar.com> Friends: We have been using the Eco-Fasten flashings for comp roofs. We have a few complaints: 1. We have been using the Eco-Fasten blocks and Unirac serrated L-feet. There is not enough room below the foot to install the neoprene washer, the block, the bonded washer, the washer, the lock washer and the nut. The L-foot runs into the nut. 2. The flashing is not wide enough (12" high by 8" wide). If the flashing ends up on the split between two 3-tab shingles there is an obvious leak path. 3. The company does not offer a decent cut-sheet. This is crucial to the permit authoring process. 4. We can't seem to get the rail height correct. We would prefer about 4" to the top of the rail. a. The L102-3 results in a rail height of 3". b. The L102-6 is 6" rail height-this is too high. c. The block with the Unirac serrated L-foot results in 3-3/4", but the combination of parts does not really fit and it is expensive. We have also tried the Iron Ridge and it seems to offer some improvements: 1. The flashing is larger (12" by 12"). 2. The rail height is about 3-1/4", still a little low. I posted some photos and comments on our web site: http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/Flashed_roof_attachments /FlashedRoofAttachements.html Do any of you have any suggestions for a flashed foot system with a rail height of about 4" and a wider flashing? Do any of you have any comments on products you like or don't like for our review? Thanks in advance. William Miller Gradient Cap_mini Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tump at swnl.net Wed Aug 5 20:19:07 2015 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2015 20:19:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island FSPC In-Reply-To: <41FE255D65D554478C3B17F3EB5410EF913E7E0A@SVR-US-EXMBX-01.sma.de> References: <2146C9025D3D3845BB0D80BB8662CAEB1C706E@AUSP01DAG0304.collaborationhost.net> <41FE255D65D554478C3B17F3EB5410EF913E6AA0@SVR-US-EXMBX-01.sma.de> <20150805213547.8435510708@che.dreamhost.com> <41FE255D65D554478C3B17F3EB5410EF913E7E0A@SVR-US-EXMBX-01.sma.de> Message-ID: <61A86C18-AA4F-455E-875B-CB2287323A2E@swnl.net> Steve THANKS for your response, perhaps this would be a good time to explain what this setting is used for and when. For those folks who have never had the pleasure of the SI SB in off grid uses. On Aug 5, 2015, at 6:03 PM, Steve Jefferson wrote: > That is correct. > > That is the AFC (automatic frequency control) function, or also called Tertiary regulation. > From the manual: > Clocks that depend on the stability of the grid frequency for their accuracy become increasingly > Inaccurate when there are constant frequency deviations. Frequency fluctuations, i.e., deviations from > The nominal frequency, occur, for example, in off-grid power systems that operate with a diesel > Generator. > The ”Automatic Frequency Control (AFC)” (German: AFRA) function of the Sunny Island allows the > use of clocks in these types of off-grid power systems. This function is activated using the > ”250.11 AfraEna” parameter. > The time deviation is compensated on average. > > I believed the OP asked about FSPC, which only is in a positive direction from baseline Frequency. > > What are the appliances that are having issues? I am aware of fixes for certain types of issues. > Some tweaks can be done in both the SI and SB to help with external issues. > > Thanks > > SMA America, LLC > Steve Jefferson > Service Line Supervisor > 3925 Atherton Ave > Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714 > U.S.A. > Tel: +1 916 625 3185 (direct) > Fax: +1 916 625 0871 > Mobile: +1 916 622 4253 > Email: Steve.jefferson at SMA-America.com > www.SMA-America.com > > > > This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt > Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 2:36 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island FSPC > > Again, conflicting information, as I was told by an SMA trainer that the SI will run the shifted frequency in the opposite direction to allow electronics that use the zero crossing to recover, like clocks. > > Sincerely, > Glenn Burt > Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. > From: Steve Jefferson > Sent: ‎8/‎5/‎2015 13:05 > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island FSPC > > The Sunny Island only shifts in the positive direction to limit the Sunny Boys output. > > What components are having issues? > > You can contact me offline to discuss. > > Thanks > > SMA America, LLC > Steve Jefferson > Service Line Supervisor > 3925 Atherton Ave > Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714 > U.S.A. > Tel: +1 916 625 3185 (direct) > Fax: +1 916 625 0871 > Mobile: +1 916 622 4253 > Email: Steve.jefferson at SMA-America.com > www.SMA-America.com > > > > This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Darren Anderson > Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2015 9:45 AM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island FSPC > > Anyone know if the Sunny Island’s Frequency Shift Power Control only shifts the frequency in the positive direction as indicated in the manual (ex. +1 Hz to 61 Hz for the fAC Start Delta). Or can it also shift the frequency down? I’m getting 59 Hz output on a remote system and it’s screwing with some other components. > > [The entire original message is not included.] > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From starpower4u at juno.com Wed Aug 5 18:47:10 2015 From: starpower4u at juno.com (Jeff Oldham) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2015 22:47:10 GMT Subject: [RE-wrenches] phone app/shading programs Message-ID: <20150805.154710.17992.0@webmail12.vgs.untd.com> Hi Jay, I also use and like a lot "Sun Seeker", very nice features. My Pathfinder is collecting dust. >From the Solar, Wind and Hydro powered office of Jeff Oldham/Regenerative SOLutions ____________________________________________________________ Old School Yearbook Pics View Class Yearbooks Online Free. Search by School & Year. Look Now! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/55c292a3f320212a314c1st04vuc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Wed Aug 5 20:53:03 2015 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2015 18:53:03 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flashed Roof-attachment systems In-Reply-To: <094d01d0cfce$66c3b960$344b2c20$@millersolar.com> References: <094d01d0cfce$66c3b960$344b2c20$@millersolar.com> Message-ID: <311483A6-63DF-4CC2-B4D3-17A18D085D87@skyfireenergy.com> I've been pretty satisfied with the Kinetic flashing/Lfoot and rail system. Their 3" Lfoot results in the rail height being btwn 4-5". They have other Lfoot heights available. I don't have a flashing handy, but they are btwn 8-10" wide. The only potential for a leak path I've ever seen is not a result of the flashing not being wide enough but from not being tall enough, however, this is easily remedied by not locating the base/flashing too high on the course/row of shingles and, if the row is wavy/uneven, having to trim the shingle around the raises portion of the flashing. Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 > On Aug 5, 2015, at 4:30 PM, "William Miller" wrote: > > Friends: > > We have been using the Eco-Fasten flashings for comp roofs. We have a few complaints: > > 1. We have been using the Eco-Fasten blocks and Unirac serrated L-feet. There is not enough room below the foot to install the neoprene washer, the block, the bonded washer, the washer, the lock washer and the nut. The L-foot runs into the nut. > 2. The flashing is not wide enough (12” high by 8” wide). If the flashing ends up on the split between two 3-tab shingles there is an obvious leak path. > 3. The company does not offer a decent cut-sheet. This is crucial to the permit authoring process. > 4. We can’t seem to get the rail height correct. We would prefer about 4” to the top of the rail. > a. The L102-3 results in a rail height of 3”. > b. The L102-6 is 6” rail height—this is too high. > c. The block with the Unirac serrated L-foot results in 3-3/4”, but the combination of parts does not really fit and it is expensive. > > We have also tried the Iron Ridge and it seems to offer some improvements: > 1. The flashing is larger (12” by 12”). > 2. The rail height is about 3-1/4”, still a little low. > > I posted some photos and comments on our web site: > http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/Flashed_roof_attachments/FlashedRoofAttachements.html > > Do any of you have any suggestions for a flashed foot system with a rail height of about 4” and a wider flashing? Do any of you have any comments on products you like or don’t like for our review? > > Thanks in advance. > > William Miller > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 21:34:39 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2015 18:34:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flashed Roof-attachment systems In-Reply-To: <094d01d0cfce$66c3b960$344b2c20$@millersolar.com> References: <094d01d0cfce$66c3b960$344b2c20$@millersolar.com> Message-ID: <89E1744E-EC7C-401F-9373-E860F6680221@gmail.com> I would check out quick mount. One of their flashing is 12" x 12". Plus solid documentation Jay Peltz power. > On Aug 5, 2015, at 3:30 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Friends: > > We have been using the Eco-Fasten flashings for comp roofs. We have a few complaints: > > 1. We have been using the Eco-Fasten blocks and Unirac serrated L-feet. There is not enough room below the foot to install the neoprene washer, the block, the bonded washer, the washer, the lock washer and the nut. The L-foot runs into the nut. > 2. The flashing is not wide enough (12” high by 8” wide). If the flashing ends up on the split between two 3-tab shingles there is an obvious leak path. > 3. The company does not offer a decent cut-sheet. This is crucial to the permit authoring process. > 4. We can’t seem to get the rail height correct. We would prefer about 4” to the top of the rail. > a. The L102-3 results in a rail height of 3”. > b. The L102-6 is 6” rail height—this is too high. > c. The block with the Unirac serrated L-foot results in 3-3/4”, but the combination of parts does not really fit and it is expensive. > > We have also tried the Iron Ridge and it seems to offer some improvements: > 1. The flashing is larger (12” by 12”). > 2. The rail height is about 3-1/4”, still a little low. > > I posted some photos and comments on our web site: > http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/Flashed_roof_attachments/FlashedRoofAttachements.html > > Do any of you have any suggestions for a flashed foot system with a rail height of about 4” and a wider flashing? Do any of you have any comments on products you like or don’t like for our review? > > Thanks in advance. > > William Miller > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dyoung at dovetailsolar.com Thu Aug 6 12:47:09 2015 From: dyoung at dovetailsolar.com (Daniel Young) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 12:47:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash Message-ID: <007401d0d067$891d92d0$9b58b870$@com> Writing the subject above, it seems like I've heard this question on the wrench list before, but I could not find it in my old email archives. Feel free to pint me back to the old discussion if it's there. I've been using a flashing based roof attachment for 8+yrs now (quick mount or similar). Now we are looking at Rail-less systems (quick rack is a good example). There is also a non-flashed rail-less racking from roof-tech http://roof-tech.us/ . I've always been of the opinion that simply crushing some sealant/gasket onto an asphalt shingle work fine at first (the test data from roof-tech is impressive), but would be an issue 10+yrs down the road (thermal expansion movement, freeze/thaw, etc). I can make a good waterproof seal at first by just slathering some butyl/silicone to an L-foot and cranking it down on the shingles, but that practice really disappeared 8+yrs ago. Maybe consider this a Poll: (to flash, or not to flash) With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at solar-energy-solutions.com Thu Aug 6 13:16:45 2015 From: matt at solar-energy-solutions.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 13:16:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash In-Reply-To: <007401d0d067$891d92d0$9b58b870$@com> References: <007401d0d067$891d92d0$9b58b870$@com> Message-ID: <47ff9ef4fa378002975cf164406b3e50.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> Daniel, My answer is to flash until others prove me wrong. I am in the same position you are, speaking to the same manufacturers you are, and probably dealing with the same low competitor pricing you are. These products sure sound tempting. Over the past decade I have probably removed a dozen 80's era hot air or hot water systems that were directly attached to roofs (installed by others). In every instance the roof was a complete mess and required deck replacement. I now tell homeowners just to contact a roofer and have them dispose of the collectors in the process of re-roofing - we will come out after the new roof is in place. I think you summed up the sealant problem quite well. I sell my systems as a 25 year product. I am not satisfied that butyl is a 25 year answer. Until someone convinces me otherwise, I will relate as much to my customers and proceed with proper flashings. Good poll. Matt Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions LLC (877) 312-7456 matt at solar-energy-solutions.com On Thu, August 6, 2015 12:47 pm, Daniel Young wrote: > Writing the subject above, it seems like I've heard this question on the > wrench list before, but I could not find it in my old email archives. Feel > free to pint me back to the old discussion if it's there. > > > > I've been using a flashing based roof attachment for 8+yrs now (quick > mount or similar). Now we are looking at Rail-less systems (quick rack is > a good example). There is also a non-flashed rail-less racking from > roof-tech http://roof-tech.us/ . I've always been of the opinion that > simply crushing some sealant/gasket onto an asphalt shingle work fine at > first (the test data from roof-tech is impressive), but would be an issue > 10+yrs down the > road (thermal expansion movement, freeze/thaw, etc). I can make a good > waterproof seal at first by just slathering some butyl/silicone to an > L-foot > and cranking it down on the shingles, but that practice really disappeared > 8+yrs ago. > > > > > Maybe consider this a Poll: (to flash, or not to flash) > > > > > With Regards, > > > > > Daniel Young, > > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht > ml > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From atruitt at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 13:04:30 2015 From: atruitt at gmail.com (Andrew Truitt) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 11:04:30 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash In-Reply-To: <007401d0d067$891d92d0$9b58b870$@com> References: <007401d0d067$891d92d0$9b58b870$@com> Message-ID: Flash! It provides a better, longer-lasting seal, and its a Code requirement in most jurisdictions. From the IBC via the Quickmount PV website: [image: Inline image 1] If one chooses to attach a footing directly to the roof without an integrated flashing then an "insurance option" is to install an 8" step-flashing under the shingle course above the penetration. This works better for railed systems than railless since the whole footing assembly can be covered by the modules. For a brighter energy future, Andrew Truitt Principal Truitt Renewable Energy Consulting, LLC (202) 486-7507 LinkedIn Profile Company Website NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 <%28202%29%20486-7507> [image: 24 copy.jpg] "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" ~William McDonough On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 10:47 AM, Daniel Young wrote: > Writing the subject above, it seems like I’ve heard this question on the > wrench list before, but I could not find it in my old email archives. Feel > free to pint me back to the old discussion if it’s there. > > > > I’ve been using a flashing based roof attachment for 8+yrs now (quick > mount or similar). Now we are looking at Rail-less systems (quick rack is > a good example). There is also a non-flashed rail-less racking from > roof-tech http://roof-tech.us/ . I’ve always been of the opinion that > simply crushing some sealant/gasket onto an asphalt shingle work fine at > first (the test data from roof-tech is impressive), but would be an issue > 10+yrs down the road (thermal expansion movement, freeze/thaw, etc). I can > make a good waterproof seal at first by just slathering some butyl/silicone > to an L-foot and cranking it down on the shingles, but that practice really > disappeared 8+yrs ago. > > > > Maybe consider this a Poll: (to flash, or not to flash) > > > > With Regards, > > > > Daniel Young, > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 35142 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 161850 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Aug 6 13:28:00 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 13:28:00 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash In-Reply-To: <007401d0d067$891d92d0$9b58b870$@com> References: <007401d0d067$891d92d0$9b58b870$@com> Message-ID: 40+ years of experience from the solar pool industry shows that shingle roof attachments without flashing with proper sealant and methods can be very successful. Typical pool heating systems involve 50+ attachments done without flashing. BUT, that experience is primarily based on two things that differ from the PV industry. First, the hardware for solar pool heat is designed specifically for this installation method. More importantly, the expansion and contraction issue does not really exist in the same sense. Solar pool heaters and straps that hold them down are inherently flexible to an extent, and the panels "float" under the tie-downs. Aluminum rails are rigid, and I can see expansion and contraction over long rail sections having a much greater degree of impact on an L-foot or standoff, especially given the leverage available with a taller attachment. This same issue exists with rail-less systems because the modules are rigid and presumably have a different coefficient of expansion than the roof. On the other hand, I don't think there is enough study and evidence to say definitively that a flashing-less PV system is necessarily detrimental to all shingle roofs, and most I have seen have been trouble-free going as long as 15 years. Where I have seen problems is where L-feet are tightened too much or too little, or were installed at angles that dug into the shingle with the sharp edge of the aluminum. I can see how a wider base would be smart for a manufacturer trying to get away without flashing. With all that said, my conclusion and vote is why risk it? Flash it. I find it to be a solid competitive advantage over those that don't anyway. The race to the bottom for the cheapest and least labor intensive installation method is not necessarily good for the industry. Jason Szumlanski On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 12:47 PM, Daniel Young wrote: > Writing the subject above, it seems like I’ve heard this question on the > wrench list before, but I could not find it in my old email archives. Feel > free to pint me back to the old discussion if it’s there. > > > > I’ve been using a flashing based roof attachment for 8+yrs now (quick > mount or similar). Now we are looking at Rail-less systems (quick rack is > a good example). There is also a non-flashed rail-less racking from > roof-tech http://roof-tech.us/ . I’ve always been of the opinion that > simply crushing some sealant/gasket onto an asphalt shingle work fine at > first (the test data from roof-tech is impressive), but would be an issue > 10+yrs down the road (thermal expansion movement, freeze/thaw, etc). I can > make a good waterproof seal at first by just slathering some butyl/silicone > to an L-foot and cranking it down on the shingles, but that practice really > disappeared 8+yrs ago. > > > > Maybe consider this a Poll: (to flash, or not to flash) > > > > With Regards, > > > > Daniel Young, > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Thu Aug 6 13:34:59 2015 From: Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com (Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 13:34:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash In-Reply-To: <47ff9ef4fa378002975cf164406b3e50.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> References: <007401d0d067$891d92d0$9b58b870$@com> <47ff9ef4fa378002975cf164406b3e50.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> Message-ID: Hi: People may already know about this, but I thought I would pass it on in case some dont. We do a lot of work with the boating and RV industry in the US and overseas. One sealant name which has come up a lot with strong positive reviews regarding age related drying/shrinking not only in the US but overseas as well is SIKA. Here's a link to their website, http://usa.sika.com/ JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: "Matt Partymiller" To: "RE-wrenches" , Date: 08/06/2015 10:16 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash Sent by: "RE-wrenches" Daniel, My answer is to flash until others prove me wrong. I am in the same position you are, speaking to the same manufacturers you are, and probably dealing with the same low competitor pricing you are. These products sure sound tempting. Over the past decade I have probably removed a dozen 80's era hot air or hot water systems that were directly attached to roofs (installed by others). In every instance the roof was a complete mess and required deck replacement. I now tell homeowners just to contact a roofer and have them dispose of the collectors in the process of re-roofing - we will come out after the new roof is in place. I think you summed up the sealant problem quite well. I sell my systems as a 25 year product. I am not satisfied that butyl is a 25 year answer. Until someone convinces me otherwise, I will relate as much to my customers and proceed with proper flashings. Good poll. Matt Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions LLC (877) 312-7456 matt at solar-energy-solutions.com On Thu, August 6, 2015 12:47 pm, Daniel Young wrote: > Writing the subject above, it seems like I've heard this question on the > wrench list before, but I could not find it in my old email archives. Feel > free to pint me back to the old discussion if it's there. > > > > I've been using a flashing based roof attachment for 8+yrs now (quick > mount or similar). Now we are looking at Rail-less systems (quick rack is > a good example). There is also a non-flashed rail-less racking from > roof-tech http://roof-tech.us/ . I've always been of the opinion that > simply crushing some sealant/gasket onto an asphalt shingle work fine at > first (the test data from roof-tech is impressive), but would be an issue > 10+yrs down the > road (thermal expansion movement, freeze/thaw, etc). I can make a good > waterproof seal at first by just slathering some butyl/silicone to an > L-foot > and cranking it down on the shingles, but that practice really disappeared > 8+yrs ago. > > > > > Maybe consider this a Poll: (to flash, or not to flash) > > > > > With Regards, > > > > > Daniel Young, > > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht > ml > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Thu Aug 6 13:50:10 2015 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 13:50:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash In-Reply-To: References: <007401d0d067$891d92d0$9b58b870$@com> <47ff9ef4fa378002975cf164406b3e50.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> Message-ID: <4c2da12a925e1750de0da51b743fb8c1.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> I'm with Jason. Even though for years we installed without flashing, we now use it on every job. It is code and besides, why take the chance? We use Snap N Rack flashing very successfully in Maine, where snow, ice, rain and large heat/cold expansion/contractions make flashing a great insurance. On really shallow roofs we use Eterna-Bond (dual side adhesion, 3 inch tape) under the flashing. Daryl > Hi: > > People may already know about this, but I thought I would pass it on in > case some dont. > > We do a lot of work with the boating and RV industry in the US and > overseas. > > One sealant name which has come up a lot with strong positive reviews > regarding age related drying/shrinking not only in the US but overseas as > well is SIKA. > > Here's a link to their website, > > http://usa.sika.com/ > > JARMO > _____________________________________________________________________________________ > > > Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | > Sales Application Engineer > Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: > +604-505-0291 > Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com > | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 > > > > > > > > > *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail > > > > > From: > "Matt Partymiller" > To: > "RE-wrenches" , > Date: > 08/06/2015 10:16 AM > Subject: > Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash > Sent by: > "RE-wrenches" > > > > Daniel, > > My answer is to flash until others prove me wrong. > > I am in the same position you are, speaking to the same manufacturers you > are, and probably dealing with the same low competitor pricing you are. > These products sure sound tempting. > > Over the past decade I have probably removed a dozen 80's era hot air or > hot water systems that were directly attached to roofs (installed by > others). In every instance the roof was a complete mess and required deck > replacement. I now tell homeowners just to contact a roofer and have them > dispose of the collectors in the process of re-roofing - we will come out > after the new roof is in place. > > I think you summed up the sealant problem quite well. I sell my systems > as a 25 year product. I am not satisfied that butyl is a 25 year answer. > Until someone convinces me otherwise, I will relate as much to my > customers and proceed with proper flashings. > > Good poll. > > Matt > > > Matthew Partymiller > Solar Energy Solutions LLC > (877) 312-7456 > matt at solar-energy-solutions.com > > > On Thu, August 6, 2015 12:47 pm, Daniel Young wrote: >> Writing the subject above, it seems like I've heard this question on the >> wrench list before, but I could not find it in my old email archives. > Feel >> free to pint me back to the old discussion if it's there. >> >> >> >> I've been using a flashing based roof attachment for 8+yrs now (quick >> mount or similar). Now we are looking at Rail-less systems (quick rack > is >> a good example). There is also a non-flashed rail-less racking from >> roof-tech http://roof-tech.us/ . I've always been of the opinion that >> simply crushing some sealant/gasket onto an asphalt shingle work fine at >> first (the test data from roof-tech is impressive), but would be an > issue >> 10+yrs down the >> road (thermal expansion movement, freeze/thaw, etc). I can make a good >> waterproof seal at first by just slathering some butyl/silicone to an >> L-foot >> and cranking it down on the shingles, but that practice really > disappeared >> 8+yrs ago. >> >> >> >> >> Maybe consider this a Poll: (to flash, or not to flash) >> >> >> >> >> With Regards, >> >> >> >> >> Daniel Young, >> >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht >> ml >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Aug 6 14:05:29 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 14:05:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash In-Reply-To: References: <007401d0d067$891d92d0$9b58b870$@com> Message-ID: If we are talking code, we should also point out how people are "getting away" without using flashings and why AHJs are not requiring them. What I have seen is that a fastener is not considered a "penetration." The argument used frequently is that the thousands of screws that attach an exposed fastener metal roof are not "flashed." The argument goes that the codes sections cited be Andrew are intended for large openings like roof vents and plumbing vents. If the screw occupies the space of the "penetration" and is further sealed with sealant or a gasket, there is no flashing required. You could extend this argument to shingle nails that go through the "roof plane" depending on how you define it. Don't kill the messenger - I'm just pointing out the logic/argument made against the requirement for flashings. I'll reiterate that my vote is to flash! Jason On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 1:04 PM, Andrew Truitt wrote: > > Flash! It provides a better, longer-lasting seal, and its a Code > requirement in most jurisdictions. From the IBC via the Quickmount PV > website: > > [image: Inline image 1] > > If one chooses to attach a footing directly to the roof without an > integrated flashing then an "insurance option" is to install an 8" > step-flashing under the shingle course above the penetration. This works > better for railed systems than railless since the whole footing assembly > can be covered by the modules. > > > > For a brighter energy future, > > > Andrew Truitt > > Principal > Truitt Renewable Energy Consulting, LLC > > (202) 486-7507 > > LinkedIn Profile > > Company Website > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 > > Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 > > > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 10:47 AM, Daniel Young > wrote: > >> Writing the subject above, it seems like I’ve heard this question on the >> wrench list before, but I could not find it in my old email archives. Feel >> free to pint me back to the old discussion if it’s there. >> >> >> >> I’ve been using a flashing based roof attachment for 8+yrs now (quick >> mount or similar). Now we are looking at Rail-less systems (quick rack is >> a good example). There is also a non-flashed rail-less racking from >> roof-tech http://roof-tech.us/ . I’ve always been of the opinion that >> simply crushing some sealant/gasket onto an asphalt shingle work fine at >> first (the test data from roof-tech is impressive), but would be an issue >> 10+yrs down the road (thermal expansion movement, freeze/thaw, etc). I can >> make a good waterproof seal at first by just slathering some butyl/silicone >> to an L-foot and cranking it down on the shingles, but that practice really >> disappeared 8+yrs ago. >> >> >> >> Maybe consider this a Poll: (to flash, or not to flash) >> >> >> >> With Regards, >> >> >> >> Daniel Young, >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 161850 bytes Desc: not available URL: From conradg at cape.com Thu Aug 6 14:59:05 2015 From: conradg at cape.com (Conrad Geyser) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 14:59:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash Message-ID: Hi fellow Wrenches, Flashing - We have ~30 years experience with ~700 systems dating back to 1980 here in the Northeast primarily on asphalt shingles. Standard attachment method on these historic systems and currently for us is a lagged foot bedded in silicone. We've seen no leaks including the historic systems as long as there was solid attachment to framing and the foot size was big enough to not crush the roofing. Our current technique is to use a single lag through the center of a 1.5" x 5" foot. Bed the foot 100% and run the lag in coated as well. Fillet all "gush out" (you can look these terms up : >). Don't use GE silicone below 45F - it will never cure. For aspahlt here in the NE, I feel as though the flashing products are OK but actually create more roof liability as they require the releasing of shingles at a minimum. Conrad Geyser Cotuit Solar LLC NAPCEP PV and Thermal On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 1:16 PM, Matt Partymiller < matt at solar-energy-solutions.com> wrote: > Daniel, > > My answer is to flash until others prove me wrong. > > I am in the same position you are, speaking to the same manufacturers you > are, and probably dealing with the same low competitor pricing you are. > These products sure sound tempting. > > Over the past decade I have probably removed a dozen 80's era hot air or > hot water systems that were directly attached to roofs (installed by > others). In every instance the roof was a complete mess and required deck > replacement. I now tell homeowners just to contact a roofer and have them > dispose of the collectors in the process of re-roofing - we will come out > after the new roof is in place. > > I think you summed up the sealant problem quite well. I sell my systems > as a 25 year product. I am not satisfied that butyl is a 25 year answer. > Until someone convinces me otherwise, I will relate as much to my > customers and proceed with proper flashings. > > Good poll. > > Matt > > > Matthew Partymiller > Solar Energy Solutions LLC > (877) 312-7456 > matt at solar-energy-solutions.com > > > On Thu, August 6, 2015 12:47 pm, Daniel Young wrote: > > Writing the subject above, it seems like I've heard this question on the > > wrench list before, but I could not find it in my old email archives. > Feel > > free to pint me back to the old discussion if it's there. > > > > > > > > I've been using a flashing based roof attachment for 8+yrs now (quick > > mount or similar). Now we are looking at Rail-less systems (quick rack > is > > a good example). There is also a non-flashed rail-less racking from > > roof-tech http://roof-tech.us/ . I've always been of the opinion that > > simply crushing some sealant/gasket onto an asphalt shingle work fine at > > first (the test data from roof-tech is impressive), but would be an issue > > 10+yrs down the > > road (thermal expansion movement, freeze/thaw, etc). I can make a good > > waterproof seal at first by just slathering some butyl/silicone to an > > L-foot > > and cranking it down on the shingles, but that practice really > disappeared > > 8+yrs ago. > > > > > > > > > > Maybe consider this a Poll: (to flash, or not to flash) > > > > > > > > > > With Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Daniel Young, > > > > > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > > > List-Archive: > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht > > ml > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com Thu Aug 6 15:03:39 2015 From: bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com (Brian Teitelbaum) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 12:03:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash In-Reply-To: References: <007401d0d067$891d92d0$9b58b870$@com> Message-ID: Jason makes an interesting point. I also think that flashings should always be used, but bear in mind that with asphalt shingles, and most roofing systems for that matter (membrane roofing is one exception), the shingles themselves are not really the “waterproof” part of the roofing assembly. The underlayment is. The primary purpose of the shingles, and the flashings, is to shed the majority of the water, and to provide physical protection for the underlayment from the elements and protection from UV light degradation. And of course for visual esthetics. It’s very important that the penetration through the underlayment be sealed properly. I’ve always thought that the reason we don’t see more leaks from L-feet on top of the shingles is because of the clamping pressure from the lag bolt compressing the layers of roofing materials. Water is a fairly thick fluid, and even though you can get capillary wicking between the materials, it needs to be a relatively large gap for the water to wick between the layers. I think that the best way to seal roof penetrations is to mount the L-foot or standoff directly to the underlayment, using a double sided butyl material, or something similar that is compatible with the underlayment material. Then the upward penetration of the L-foot or standoff through the shingles should be flashed. Of course, this is not easy to do on a retrofit job, but would be the way to go on a new roof installation. Many roofers, especially in snow zones, are moving into using self-adhering underlayments, which also offer better sealing of all of the nail penetrations. Basically, it has a sticky butyl or asphalt-based layer in contact with the sheathing, with a non-sticky top surface. This makes it self-sealing to all the nail and screw penetrations. Some roofing systems are even moving to the “rain-screen” idea, that being that there is actually a gap engineered into the system between the underlayment and the final roofing material. This allows any water that gets past the top-layer roofing to have a clear pathway to drain down the slope of the roof and out the edge of the eve. Furring strips are used to give a 3/8” or larger gap. This also allows air flow into the roofing system to aid is drying out any moisture that does enter. This also might make the use of flashings less imperative, since all the true waterproofing is at the underlayment level, not at the shingles of other final roofing. Brian Teitelbaum AEE Solar *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski *Sent:* Thursday, August 06, 2015 11:05 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash If we are talking code, we should also point out how people are "getting away" without using flashings and why AHJs are not requiring them. What I have seen is that a fastener is not considered a "penetration." The argument used frequently is that the thousands of screws that attach an exposed fastener metal roof are not "flashed." The argument goes that the codes sections cited be Andrew are intended for large openings like roof vents and plumbing vents. If the screw occupies the space of the "penetration" and is further sealed with sealant or a gasket, there is no flashing required. You could extend this argument to shingle nails that go through the "roof plane" depending on how you define it. Don't kill the messenger - I'm just pointing out the logic/argument made against the requirement for flashings. I'll reiterate that my vote is to flash! Jason On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 1:04 PM, Andrew Truitt wrote: Flash! It provides a better, longer-lasting seal, and its a Code requirement in most jurisdictions. From the IBC via the Quickmount PV website: [image: Inline image 1] If one chooses to attach a footing directly to the roof without an integrated flashing then an "insurance option" is to install an 8" step-flashing under the shingle course above the penetration. This works better for railed systems than railless since the whole footing assembly can be covered by the modules. For a brighter energy future, Andrew Truitt Principal Truitt Renewable Energy Consulting, LLC (202) 486-7507 LinkedIn Profile Company Website NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 10:47 AM, Daniel Young wrote: Writing the subject above, it seems like I’ve heard this question on the wrench list before, but I could not find it in my old email archives. Feel free to pint me back to the old discussion if it’s there. I’ve been using a flashing based roof attachment for 8+yrs now (quick mount or similar). Now we are looking at Rail-less systems (quick rack is a good example). There is also a non-flashed rail-less racking from roof-tech http://roof-tech.us/ . I’ve always been of the opinion that simply crushing some sealant/gasket onto an asphalt shingle work fine at first (the test data from roof-tech is impressive), but would be an issue 10+yrs down the road (thermal expansion movement, freeze/thaw, etc). I can make a good waterproof seal at first by just slathering some butyl/silicone to an L-foot and cranking it down on the shingles, but that practice really disappeared 8+yrs ago. Maybe consider this a Poll: (to flash, or not to flash) With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 144513 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tump at swnl.net Thu Aug 6 15:08:24 2015 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 15:08:24 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash In-Reply-To: References: <007401d0d067$891d92d0$9b58b870$@com> Message-ID: <44D26C33-38A6-4E9A-A176-18825912DBEB@swnl.net> As NABCEP certified installers, the signed agreement states that; we as "Pros" will use the IBC and other applicable codes for design & installation methods. I will say that I loose jobs due to the additional cost of components & labor to install flashings. It is very frustrating having my local competition continue to squirt the L foot n go...... Our society, despite long winded explanations to a potential client the benefits of flashing, still are driven by the short term $$$$ savings despite the long term liability & cost of roof replacements. The other advantage of flashing is the improved long term output w/ the additional air circulation under the modules. Flash or walk! I sleep better when the ol noreaster comes a howeling. On Aug 6, 2015, at 2:05 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > If we are talking code, we should also point out how people are "getting away" without using flashings and why AHJs are not requiring them. What I have seen is that a fastener is not considered a "penetration." The argument used frequently is that the thousands of screws that attach an exposed fastener metal roof are not "flashed." The argument goes that the codes sections cited be Andrew are intended for large openings like roof vents and plumbing vents. If the screw occupies the space of the "penetration" and is further sealed with sealant or a gasket, there is no flashing required. You could extend this argument to shingle nails that go through the "roof plane" depending on how you define it. > > Don't kill the messenger - I'm just pointing out the logic/argument made against the requirement for flashings. > > I'll reiterate that my vote is to flash! > > Jason > > > On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 1:04 PM, Andrew Truitt wrote: > > Flash! It provides a better, longer-lasting seal, and its a Code requirement in most jurisdictions. From the IBC via the Quickmount PV website: > > > > If one chooses to attach a footing directly to the roof without an integrated flashing then an "insurance option" is to install an 8" step-flashing under the shingle course above the penetration. This works better for railed systems than railless since the whole footing assembly can be covered by the modules. > > > > For a brighter energy future, > > > Andrew Truitt > > Principal > Truitt Renewable Energy Consulting, LLC > > (202) 486-7507 > > LinkedIn Profile > > Company Website > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 > > Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 10:47 AM, Daniel Young wrote: > Writing the subject above, it seems like I’ve heard this question on the wrench list before, but I could not find it in my old email archives. Feel free to pint me back to the old discussion if it’s there. > > > > I’ve been using a flashing based roof attachment for 8+yrs now (quick mount or similar). Now we are looking at Rail-less systems (quick rack is a good example). There is also a non-flashed rail-less racking from roof-tech http://roof-tech.us/ . I’ve always been of the opinion that simply crushing some sealant/gasket onto an asphalt shingle work fine at first (the test data from roof-tech is impressive), but would be an issue 10+yrs down the road (thermal expansion movement, freeze/thaw, etc). I can make a good waterproof seal at first by just slathering some butyl/silicone to an L-foot and cranking it down on the shingles, but that practice really disappeared 8+yrs ago. > > > > Maybe consider this a Poll: (to flash, or not to flash) > > > > With Regards, > > > > Daniel Young, > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Aug 6 14:13:59 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 14:13:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash In-Reply-To: References: <007401d0d067$891d92d0$9b58b870$@com> <47ff9ef4fa378002975cf164406b3e50.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> Message-ID: This started as an asphalt shingle attachment discussion, so it's important to note that many of the sealants from Sika are NOT compatible with asphaltic/bitumunous surfaces. Many competitors are still using products from this company that are specifically noted by the manufacturer as not compatible with the materials being sealed. Make sure your sealant is compatible with the roof! On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 1:34 PM, wrote: > Hi: > > People may already know about this, but I thought I would pass it on in > case some dont. > > We do a lot of work with the boating and RV industry in the US and > overseas. > > One sealant name which has come up a lot with strong positive reviews > regarding age related drying/shrinking not only in the US but overseas as > well is SIKA. > > Here's a link to their website, > > http://usa.sika.com/ > > JARMO > > _____________________________________________________________________________________ > > * Jarmo Venalainen* | * Schneider Electric ** | Xantrex Brand* | > *CANADA* | *Sales Application Engineer* > * Phone:* +604-422-2528 | *Tech Support:* 800-670-0707 | *Mobile:* > +604-505-0291 > * Email:* *jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com* > | *Site:** www.Xantrex.com* > | *Address:* 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC > V5G4M1 > > > From: "Matt Partymiller" To: "RE-wrenches" > , Date: 08/06/2015 10:16 AM Subject: Re: > [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash Sent by: "RE-wrenches" < > re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org> > ------------------------------ > > > > Daniel, > > My answer is to flash until others prove me wrong. > > I am in the same position you are, speaking to the same manufacturers you > are, and probably dealing with the same low competitor pricing you are. > These products sure sound tempting. > > Over the past decade I have probably removed a dozen 80's era hot air or > hot water systems that were directly attached to roofs (installed by > others). In every instance the roof was a complete mess and required deck > replacement. I now tell homeowners just to contact a roofer and have them > dispose of the collectors in the process of re-roofing - we will come out > after the new roof is in place. > > I think you summed up the sealant problem quite well. I sell my systems > as a 25 year product. I am not satisfied that butyl is a 25 year answer. > Until someone convinces me otherwise, I will relate as much to my > customers and proceed with proper flashings. > > Good poll. > > Matt > > > Matthew Partymiller > Solar Energy Solutions LLC > (877) 312-7456 > matt at solar-energy-solutions.com > > > On Thu, August 6, 2015 12:47 pm, Daniel Young wrote: > > Writing the subject above, it seems like I've heard this question on the > > wrench list before, but I could not find it in my old email archives. > Feel > > free to pint me back to the old discussion if it's there. > > > > > > > > I've been using a flashing based roof attachment for 8+yrs now (quick > > mount or similar). Now we are looking at Rail-less systems (quick rack > is > > a good example). There is also a non-flashed rail-less racking from > > roof-tech http://roof-tech.us/ . I've always been of the opinion that > > simply crushing some sealant/gasket onto an asphalt shingle work fine at > > first (the test data from roof-tech is impressive), but would be an issue > > 10+yrs down the > > road (thermal expansion movement, freeze/thaw, etc). I can make a good > > waterproof seal at first by just slathering some butyl/silicone to an > > L-foot > > and cranking it down on the shingles, but that practice really > disappeared > > 8+yrs ago. > > > > > > > > > > Maybe consider this a Poll: (to flash, or not to flash) > > > > > > > > > > With Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Daniel Young, > > > > > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 40194 bytes Desc: not available URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Thu Aug 6 14:55:58 2015 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 14:55:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash In-Reply-To: References: <007401d0d067$891d92d0$9b58b870$@com> <47ff9ef4fa378002975cf164406b3e50.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> Message-ID: <20150806185608.F2B7C108A8@che.dreamhost.com> Jarmo, years ago Sikaflex was thought to be the best solution, unto it was discovered that according to the manufacturer it is not compatible with asphalt shingles and their petroleum based components. Hopefully no one is still using it in that application. Sincerely, Glenn Burt Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. -----Original Message----- From: "Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com" Sent: ‎8/‎6/‎2015 13:34 To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash Hi: People may already know about this, but I thought I would pass it on in case some dont. We do a lot of work with the boating and RV industry in the US and overseas. One sealant name which has come up a lot with strong positive reviews regarding age related drying/shrinking not only in the US but overseas as well is SIKA. Here's a link to their website, http://usa.sika.com/ JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: "Matt Partymiller" To: "RE-wrenches" , Date: 08/06/2015 10:16 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash Sent by: "RE-wrenches" Daniel, My answer is to flash until others prove me wrong. I am in the same position you are, speaking to the same manufacturers you are, and probably dealing with the same low competitor pricing you are. These products sure sound tempting. Over the past decade I have probably removed a dozen 80's era hot air or hot water systems that were directly attached to roofs (installed by others). In every instance the roof was a complete mess and required deck replacement. I now tell homeowners just to contact a roofer and have them dispose of the collectors in the process of re-roofing - we will come out after the new roof is in place. I think you summed up the sealant problem quite well. I sell my systems as a 25 year product. I am not satisfied that butyl is a 25 year answer. Until someone convinces me otherwise, I will relate as much to my customers and proceed with proper flashings. Good poll. Matt Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions LLC (877) 312-7456 matt at solar-energy-solutions.com On Thu, August 6, 2015 12:47 pm, Daniel Young wrote: > Writing the subject above, it seems like I've heard this question on the > wrench list before, but I could not find it in my old email archives. Feel > free to pint me back to the old discussion if it's there. > > > > I've been using a flashing based roof attachment for 8+yrs now (quick > mount or similar). Now we are looking at Rail-less systems (quick rack is > a good example). There is also a non-flashed rail-less racking from > roof-tech http://roof-tech.us/ . I've always been of the opinion that > simply crushing some sealant/gasket onto an asphalt shingle work fine at > first (the test data from roof-tech is impressive), but would be an issue > 10+yrs down the > road (thermal expansion movement, freeze/thaw, etc). I can make a good > waterproof seal at first by just slathering some butyl/silicone to an > L-foot > and cranking it down on the shingles, but that practice really disappeared > 8+yrs ago. > > > > > Maybe consider this a Poll: (to flash, or not to flash) > > > > > With Regards, > > > > > Daniel Young, > > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht > ml > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ [The entire original message is not included.] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Thu Aug 6 15:25:25 2015 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 15:25:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash In-Reply-To: References: <007401d0d067$891d92d0$9b58b870$@com> <47ff9ef4fa378002975cf164406b3e50.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> Message-ID: <1F0ABF0A-CB79-421E-B8CC-86B859EA5340@swnl.net> Silicone is not a roof mastic and it does react to Alu despite your record w/ your historic installation methods. We and our industry are now in the 21st century with 21 century requirements and many hi quality roof mastic sealants. The way I figure it is that I am a professional solar installer, I am not a roofer nor a sealant engineer but they have provided our industry with requirements and products to ensure my clients receive hi level of quality installations despite the costs. On Aug 6, 2015, at 2:13 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > This started as an asphalt shingle attachment discussion, so it's important to note that many of the sealants from Sika are NOT compatible with asphaltic/bitumunous surfaces. Many competitors are still using products from this company that are specifically noted by the manufacturer as not compatible with the materials being sealed. Make sure your sealant is compatible with the roof! > > > > > On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 1:34 PM, wrote: > Hi: > > People may already know about this, but I thought I would pass it on in case some dont. > > We do a lot of work with the boating and RV industry in the US and overseas. > > One sealant name which has come up a lot with strong positive reviews regarding age related drying/shrinking not only in the US but overseas as well is SIKA. > > Here's a link to their website, > > http://usa.sika.com/ > > JARMO > _____________________________________________________________________________________ > > Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer > Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 > Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 > > > > From: "Matt Partymiller" > To: "RE-wrenches" , > Date: 08/06/2015 10:16 AM > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash > Sent by: "RE-wrenches" > > > > > Daniel, > > My answer is to flash until others prove me wrong. > > I am in the same position you are, speaking to the same manufacturers you > are, and probably dealing with the same low competitor pricing you are. > These products sure sound tempting. > > Over the past decade I have probably removed a dozen 80's era hot air or > hot water systems that were directly attached to roofs (installed by > others). In every instance the roof was a complete mess and required deck > replacement. I now tell homeowners just to contact a roofer and have them > dispose of the collectors in the process of re-roofing - we will come out > after the new roof is in place. > > I think you summed up the sealant problem quite well. I sell my systems > as a 25 year product. I am not satisfied that butyl is a 25 year answer. > Until someone convinces me otherwise, I will relate as much to my > customers and proceed with proper flashings. > > Good poll. > > Matt > > > Matthew Partymiller > Solar Energy Solutions LLC > (877) 312-7456 > matt at solar-energy-solutions.com > > > On Thu, August 6, 2015 12:47 pm, Daniel Young wrote: > > Writing the subject above, it seems like I've heard this question on the > > wrench list before, but I could not find it in my old email archives. Feel > > free to pint me back to the old discussion if it's there. > > > > > > > > I've been using a flashing based roof attachment for 8+yrs now (quick > > mount or similar). Now we are looking at Rail-less systems (quick rack is > > a good example). There is also a non-flashed rail-less racking from > > roof-tech http://roof-tech.us/ . I've always been of the opinion that > > simply crushing some sealant/gasket onto an asphalt shingle work fine at > > first (the test data from roof-tech is impressive), but would be an issue > > 10+yrs down the > > road (thermal expansion movement, freeze/thaw, etc). I can make a good > > waterproof seal at first by just slathering some butyl/silicone to an > > L-foot > > and cranking it down on the shingles, but that practice really disappeared > > 8+yrs ago. > > > > > > > > > > Maybe consider this a Poll: (to flash, or not to flash) > > > > > > > > > > With Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Daniel Young, > > > > > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Aug 6 15:53:09 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 12:53:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash In-Reply-To: <007401d0d067$891d92d0$9b58b870$@com> References: <007401d0d067$891d92d0$9b58b870$@com> Message-ID: <8C8BC3B6-8D01-48DC-8AB2-6D1B265478FE@millersolar.com> Daniel: Good question, and worthy of revisiting. As a contractor and businessman, I am obligated to reduce risk exposure by using best evolved practices. This requires I used modern, purpose-built, approved attachment hardware. To my knowledge, these are all flashed. No roofing contractor will honor a warranty on sealant-only attachments. On pitched roofs, gravity is the main factor in shedding rain water and flashed systems accomplish this. Thanks for bringing this up. William > On Aug 6, 2015, at 9:47 AM, Daniel Young wrote: > > Writing the subject above, it seems like I’ve heard this question on the wrench list before, but I could not find it in my old email archives. Feel free to pint me back to the old discussion if it’s there. > > I’ve been using a flashing based roof attachment for 8+yrs now (quick mount or similar). Now we are looking at Rail-less systems (quick rack is a good example). There is also a non-flashed rail-less racking from roof-tech http://roof-tech.us/ . I’ve always been of the opinion that simply crushing some sealant/gasket onto an asphalt shingle work fine at first (the test data from roof-tech is impressive), but would be an issue 10+yrs down the road (thermal expansion movement, freeze/thaw, etc). I can make a good waterproof seal at first by just slathering some butyl/silicone to an L-foot and cranking it down on the shingles, but that practice really disappeared 8+yrs ago. > > Maybe consider this a Poll: (to flash, or not to flash) > > With Regards, > > Daniel Young, > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From conradg at cape.com Thu Aug 6 16:32:05 2015 From: conradg at cape.com (Conrad Geyser) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 16:32:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash In-Reply-To: <1F0ABF0A-CB79-421E-B8CC-86B859EA5340@swnl.net> References: <007401d0d067$891d92d0$9b58b870$@com> <47ff9ef4fa378002975cf164406b3e50.squirrel@solar-energy-solutions.com> <1F0ABF0A-CB79-421E-B8CC-86B859EA5340@swnl.net> Message-ID: Tump, Glad you feel you have a superior method. Please feel free to use it but do not assume that your process is superior for others and hence infer an alleged best practice. Silicone does indeed react with aluminum; it bonds with it by etching the surface. This is a good thing. I agree with you on looking out for polyurethane products (some made by Sika) that asphalt degrades! No need to wander far, silicone works great and stays flexible indefinitely. Polyurethane has some great properties but is not oil or bitumen(asphalt) resistant. Conrad On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 3:25 PM, Tump wrote: > Silicone is not a roof mastic and it does react to Alu despite your record > w/ your historic installation methods. We and our industry are now in the > 21st century with 21 century requirements and many hi quality roof mastic > sealants. The way I figure it is that I am a professional solar installer, > I am not a roofer nor a sealant engineer but they have provided our > industry with requirements and products to ensure my clients receive hi > level of quality installations despite the costs. > On Aug 6, 2015, at 2:13 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > This started as an asphalt shingle attachment discussion, so it's > important to note that many of the sealants from Sika are NOT compatible > with asphaltic/bitumunous surfaces. Many competitors are still using > products from this company that are specifically noted by the manufacturer > as not compatible with the materials being sealed. Make sure your sealant > is compatible with the roof! > > > > > On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 1:34 PM, > wrote: > >> Hi: >> >> People may already know about this, but I thought I would pass it on in >> case some dont. >> >> We do a lot of work with the boating and RV industry in the US and >> overseas. >> >> One sealant name which has come up a lot with strong positive reviews >> regarding age related drying/shrinking not only in the US but overseas as >> well is SIKA. >> >> Here's a link to their website, >> >> http://usa.sika.com/ >> >> JARMO >> >> _____________________________________________________________________________________ >> >> * Jarmo Venalainen* | * Schneider Electric ** | Xantrex Brand* | >> *CANADA* | *Sales Application Engineer* >> * Phone:* +604-422-2528 | *Tech Support:* 800-670-0707 | *Mobile:* >> +604-505-0291 >> * Email:* *jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com* >> | *Site:** www.Xantrex.com* >> | *Address:* 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC >> V5G4M1 >> >> >> From: "Matt Partymiller" To: "RE-wrenches" >> , Date: 08/06/2015 10:16 AM Subject: Re: >> [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash Sent by: "RE-wrenches" < >> re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org> >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> >> Daniel, >> >> My answer is to flash until others prove me wrong. >> >> I am in the same position you are, speaking to the same manufacturers you >> are, and probably dealing with the same low competitor pricing you are. >> These products sure sound tempting. >> >> Over the past decade I have probably removed a dozen 80's era hot air or >> hot water systems that were directly attached to roofs (installed by >> others). In every instance the roof was a complete mess and required deck >> replacement. I now tell homeowners just to contact a roofer and have them >> dispose of the collectors in the process of re-roofing - we will come out >> after the new roof is in place. >> >> I think you summed up the sealant problem quite well. I sell my systems >> as a 25 year product. I am not satisfied that butyl is a 25 year answer. >> Until someone convinces me otherwise, I will relate as much to my >> customers and proceed with proper flashings. >> >> Good poll. >> >> Matt >> >> >> Matthew Partymiller >> Solar Energy Solutions LLC >> (877) 312-7456 >> matt at solar-energy-solutions.com >> >> >> On Thu, August 6, 2015 12:47 pm, Daniel Young wrote: >> > Writing the subject above, it seems like I've heard this question on the >> > wrench list before, but I could not find it in my old email archives. >> Feel >> > free to pint me back to the old discussion if it's there. >> > >> > >> > >> > I've been using a flashing based roof attachment for 8+yrs now (quick >> > mount or similar). Now we are looking at Rail-less systems (quick rack >> is >> > a good example). There is also a non-flashed rail-less racking from >> > roof-tech http://roof-tech.us/ . I've always been of the opinion that >> > simply crushing some sealant/gasket onto an asphalt shingle work fine at >> > first (the test data from roof-tech is impressive), but would be an >> issue >> > 10+yrs down the >> > road (thermal expansion movement, freeze/thaw, etc). I can make a good >> > waterproof seal at first by just slathering some butyl/silicone to an >> > L-foot >> > and cranking it down on the shingles, but that practice really >> disappeared >> > 8+yrs ago. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Maybe consider this a Poll: (to flash, or not to flash) >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > With Regards, >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Daniel Young, >> > >> > >> > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 >> > >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > *Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net* > Solarwinds Northernlights > * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* > * 207-832-7574 <207-832-7574> Cl. 610-517-8401 > <610-517-8401> * > *Blair "TUMP" May* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * * > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william.miller at millersolar.com Thu Aug 6 23:11:31 2015 From: william.miller at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 20:11:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC Disconnects incorporated into grid-tie inverters. flammable surfaces Message-ID: <0cc701d0d0be$c4141b00$4c3c5100$@millersolar.com> Dear Friends: I have been pursuing some answers from Solectria on what appear to be significant defects in the design of their residential PVI series inverters. I have finally received some final answers from them on a few issues and I am waiting on final answers on others. Unfortunately the answers are not good. 1. Apparently the electronics portion of the PVI series inverter cannot be separated from the DC disconnect. If you want to replace that inverter, you need to remove the entire chassis. This of course exposes the lone service worker to high voltage DC. The unit looks like it can be separated but they tell me it cannot be. This reminds me of the Fronius IG series inverter. I argued with Fronius for an entire day about how idiotic it was to propose tarping panels to protect service workers. I submit that an inverter without a separatable disconnect requires an outboard DC disconnect or it is not viable. The DC disconnect adds cost and clutter to any install. Solectria has an outboard, remotely activated disconnect. I was hoping to get my hands on one at a recent local sales seminar Solectria held, but the goofball presenting the seminar did not bother bringing one ( I can call him a goof ball because he has since left Solectria. I would not otherwise call anyone at a manufacturer a name, they are all good people doing the best job they can with the products they are hired to represent). Anyway, before I bid another Solectria I will price compare with the cost of the remote disconnect included. I won't install one until I have touched the device to verify it is suitable. I am taking a poll: Which GT inverters have included, separatable DC disconnects? How easy are they to replace? How important is it to you that the DC disconnect be separatable? 2. The Solectria PVI installation manual indicates the inverter is not to be mounted to "flammable surfaces." You cannot mount these inverter on a wood surface, indoors or out. The bracket is not wide enough to span two studs in most cases, so if you are mounting it inside, you cannot mount it on a plywood backboard and you cannot mount it on the exterior of a wood-sheeted structure. It is not unlikely that if any trees are near your inverter, a few leaves will likely become lodged behind the inverter over time and they then could burst into flames. To me this inverter heating seems very limiting. It makes me think: do I want to install a fire-starter on or in my customers homes? Do any of you know of any other inverters that get hot enough to ignite the surface onto which they are mounted? Thanks for the input. William Miller Gradient Cap_mini Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Aug 7 13:34:20 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2015 11:34:20 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55C4EC1C.1010706@solarray.com> My opinion is that if the L foot has enough surface area it constitutes a flashing, and that large flashings can actually cause more damage to the roof than they prevent. I also agree that an attachement doesn't constitute a penetration. I just finished an install on a metal roof with hundreds of screw holes. We added a few more screw holes, and ours have 20 times the sealant surface area. We did run a 1" conduit through the roof, and since it was an actual penetration, we used a very expensive flexible boot flashing. Personally, I think we need about a 3"x3" or 4" x 4" L foot with a double stick butyl tape on the bottom, and all will be well. I realize that the OP was referring to asphalt, but I will flash other roof types that don't do well with L feet ( like shake). R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 8/6/2015 12:59 PM, Conrad Geyser wrote: > Hi fellow Wrenches, > > Flashing - > > We have ~30 years experience with ~700 systems dating back to 1980 > here in the Northeast primarily on asphalt shingles. > > Standard attachment method on these historic systems and currently for > us is a lagged foot bedded in silicone. We've seen no leaks including > the historic systems as long as there was solid attachment to framing > and the foot size was big enough to not crush the roofing. > > Our current technique is to use a single lag through the center of a > 1.5" x 5" foot. Bed the foot 100% and run the lag in coated as well. > Fillet all "gush out" (you can look these terms up : >). Don't use > GE silicone below 45F - it will never cure. > > For aspahlt here in the NE, I feel as though the flashing products are > OK but actually create more roof liability as they require the > releasing of shingles at a minimum. > > Conrad Geyser > Cotuit Solar LLC > NAPCEP PV and Thermal > > > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 1:16 PM, Matt Partymiller > > wrote: > > Daniel, > > My answer is to flash until others prove me wrong. > > I am in the same position you are, speaking to the same > manufacturers you > are, and probably dealing with the same low competitor pricing you > are. > These products sure sound tempting. > > Over the past decade I have probably removed a dozen 80's era hot > air or > hot water systems that were directly attached to roofs (installed by > others). In every instance the roof was a complete mess and > required deck > replacement. I now tell homeowners just to contact a roofer and > have them > dispose of the collectors in the process of re-roofing - we will > come out > after the new roof is in place. > > I think you summed up the sealant problem quite well. I sell my > systems > as a 25 year product. I am not satisfied that butyl is a 25 year > answer. > Until someone convinces me otherwise, I will relate as much to my > customers and proceed with proper flashings. > > Good poll. > > Matt > > > Matthew Partymiller > Solar Energy Solutions LLC > (877) 312-7456 > matt at solar-energy-solutions.com > > > > On Thu, August 6, 2015 12:47 pm, Daniel Young wrote: > > Writing the subject above, it seems like I've heard this > question on the > > wrench list before, but I could not find it in my old email > archives. Feel > > free to pint me back to the old discussion if it's there. > > > > > > > > I've been using a flashing based roof attachment for 8+yrs now > (quick > > mount or similar). Now we are looking at Rail-less systems > (quick rack is > > a good example). There is also a non-flashed rail-less racking from > > roof-tech http://roof-tech.us/ . I've always been of the opinion > that > > simply crushing some sealant/gasket onto an asphalt shingle work > fine at > > first (the test data from roof-tech is impressive), but would be > an issue > > 10+yrs down the > > road (thermal expansion movement, freeze/thaw, etc). I can make > a good > > waterproof seal at first by just slathering some butyl/silicone > to an > > L-foot > > and cranking it down on the shingles, but that practice really > disappeared > > 8+yrs ago. > > > > > > > > > > Maybe consider this a Poll: (to flash, or not to flash) > > > > > > > > > > With Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Daniel Young, > > > > > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > > > List-Archive: > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht > > ml > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 14:08:55 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 11:08:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash In-Reply-To: <55C4EC1C.1010706@solarray.com> References: <55C4EC1C.1010706@solarray.com> Message-ID: <0F2ADB18-712D-402E-9112-24556B8A90E6@gmail.com> Hi Ray Can you elaborate on how a large flashing can cause more damage than it prevents? Thanks Jay Peltz power Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 7, 2015, at 10:34 AM, Ray Walters wrote: > > My opinion is that if the L foot has enough surface area it constitutes a flashing, and that large flashings can actually cause more damage to the roof than they prevent. > I also agree that an attachement doesn't constitute a penetration. I just finished an install on a metal roof with hundreds of screw holes. We added a few more screw holes, and ours have 20 times the sealant surface area. We did run a 1" conduit through the roof, and since it was an actual penetration, we used a very expensive flexible boot flashing. > Personally, I think we need about a 3"x3" or 4" x 4" L foot with a double stick butyl tape on the bottom, and all will be well. > I realize that the OP was referring to asphalt, but I will flash other roof types that don't do well with L feet ( like shake). > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-876 > From ray at solarray.com Fri Aug 7 14:24:49 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2015 12:24:49 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash In-Reply-To: <8C8BC3B6-8D01-48DC-8AB2-6D1B265478FE@millersolar.com> References: <007401d0d067$891d92d0$9b58b870$@com> <8C8BC3B6-8D01-48DC-8AB2-6D1B265478FE@millersolar.com> Message-ID: <55C4F7F1.9020703@solarray.com> Hi William; First, a sealed L foot is not a sealant only attachment system. It has quite a bit of surface area beyond the hole just like a flashing, and has mechanical attachment through the roof to the structure (which a flashing often does not). I consider an L foot to be a mini flashing for a mini penetration. Its relative. A propanel screw has a 1/2" rubber washer for a 3/16" screw, and is accepted by the roofing industry and IBC. A 2" x2" L foot base with a 5/16" high strength lag and sealant is much more seal relative to the penetration. A 12" x 12" flashing is used for penetrations as large as 4" plumbing vents, and depends on the rubber Oatey boot to seal, which most of us know will dry rot in 5-10 years. It's accepted by the roofing industry too, so I'm not that impressed with the roofing industry's judgement to be honest. I do agree, that overlapping layers so that gravity helps shed the water is a good concept, but can't always be "adhered" to, especially on metal roofs for instance. However, I will also mention that while I am comfortable with L feet, and think they do meet code; I am considering flashings on my next asphalt roof project. I've made many changes to my practices over the years, not always because I though it was necessary, but instead to "keep up with the Solar Jones". Have a good weekend, R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 8/6/2015 1:53 PM, William Miller wrote: > Daniel: > > Good question, and worthy of revisiting. > > As a contractor and businessman, I am obligated to reduce risk > exposure by using best evolved practices. This requires I used modern, > purpose-built, approved attachment hardware. To my knowledge, these > are all flashed. > > No roofing contractor will honor a warranty on sealant-only > attachments. On pitched roofs, gravity is the main factor in shedding > rain water and flashed systems accomplish this. > > Thanks for bringing this up. > > William > > > > On Aug 6, 2015, at 9:47 AM, Daniel Young > wrote: > >> Writing the subject above, it seems like I’ve heard this question on >> the wrench list before, but I could not find it in my old email >> archives. Feel free to pint me back to the old discussion if it’s there. >> >> I’ve been using a flashing based roof attachment for 8+yrs now (quick >> mount or similar). Now we are looking at Rail-less systems (quick >> rack is a good example). There is also a non-flashed rail-less >> racking from roof-tech http://roof-tech.us/ . I’ve always been of the >> opinion that simply crushing some sealant/gasket onto an asphalt >> shingle work fine at first (the test data from roof-tech is >> impressive), but would be an issue 10+yrs down the road (thermal >> expansion movement, freeze/thaw, etc). I can make a good waterproof >> seal at first by just slathering some butyl/silicone to an L-foot and >> cranking it down on the shingles, but that practice really >> disappeared 8+yrs ago. >> >> Maybe consider this a Poll: (to flash, or not to flash) >> >> With Regards, >> >> Daniel Young, >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional^TM : Cert #031508-90 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william.miller at millersolar.com Fri Aug 7 14:19:20 2015 From: william.miller at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 11:19:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash In-Reply-To: <55C4EC1C.1010706@solarray.com> References: <55C4EC1C.1010706@solarray.com> Message-ID: <0dc101d0d13d$967f4dc0$c37de940$@millersolar.com> Ray: I have to respectfully disagree with your semantics. A flashing is an overlapping of roofing materials such that gravity will direct rain and melt water off of the roof. This is a universally accepted waterproofing method that does not depend on any sealant material. The concept is as ancient as the first, crude, thatched roof. If you place a flat object on top of roofing without an uphill material lapping over the downhill object, you are not flashing. What you have described is sealant-dependent weatherproofing. Regardless of the quality of the sealant, or lack thereof, I don't think you can call it a flashed attachment. (The overarching point is a flashed attachment does not depend on a sealant. Any sealant has a finite lifespan. Removing the sealant variable from the equation results in more lasting installation.) Sincerely, William Miller Gradient Cap_mini Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 10:34 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash My opinion is that if the L foot has enough surface area it constitutes a flashing, and that large flashings can actually cause more damage to the roof than they prevent. I also agree that an attachement doesn't constitute a penetration. I just finished an install on a metal roof with hundreds of screw holes. We added a few more screw holes, and ours have 20 times the sealant surface area. We did run a 1" conduit through the roof, and since it was an actual penetration, we used a very expensive flexible boot flashing. Personally, I think we need about a 3"x3" or 4" x 4" L foot with a double stick butyl tape on the bottom, and all will be well. I realize that the OP was referring to asphalt, but I will flash other roof types that don't do well with L feet ( like shake). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Aug 7 15:21:41 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 15:21:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash In-Reply-To: <0dc101d0d13d$967f4dc0$c37de940$@millersolar.com> References: <55C4EC1C.1010706@solarray.com> <0dc101d0d13d$967f4dc0$c37de940$@millersolar.com> Message-ID: "If you place a flat object on top of roofing without an uphill material lapping over the downhill object, you are not flashing. " By that logic, an Oatey boot is not a flashing for a plumbing vent on a metal roof. Just sayin'... Jason Szumlanski On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 2:19 PM, William Miller < william.miller at millersolar.com> wrote: > Ray: > > > > I have to respectfully disagree with your semantics. A flashing is an > overlapping of roofing materials such that gravity will direct rain and > melt water off of the roof. This is a universally accepted waterproofing > method that does not depend on any sealant material. The concept is as > ancient as the first, crude, thatched roof. > > > > If you place a flat object on top of roofing without an uphill material > lapping over the downhill object, you are not flashing. > > > > What you have described is sealant-dependent weatherproofing. Regardless > of the quality of the sealant, or lack thereof, I don’t think you can call > it a flashed attachment. > > > > (The overarching point is a flashed attachment does not depend on a > sealant. Any sealant has a finite lifespan. Removing the sealant variable > from the equation results in more lasting installation.) > > Sincerely, > > > > William Miller > > > > > > [image: Gradient Cap_mini] > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Ray Walters > *Sent:* Friday, August 07, 2015 10:34 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash > > > > My opinion is that if the L foot has enough surface area it constitutes a > flashing, and that large flashings can actually cause more damage to the > roof than they prevent. > I also agree that an attachement doesn't constitute a penetration. I just > finished an install on a metal roof with hundreds of screw holes. We added > a few more screw holes, and ours have 20 times the sealant surface area. > We did run a 1" conduit through the roof, and since it was an actual > penetration, we used a very expensive flexible boot flashing. > Personally, I think we need about a 3"x3" or 4" x 4" L foot with a double > stick butyl tape on the bottom, and all will be well. > I realize that the OP was referring to asphalt, but I will flash other > roof types that don't do well with L feet ( like shake). > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Aug 7 16:50:55 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2015 14:50:55 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash In-Reply-To: <0F2ADB18-712D-402E-9112-24556B8A90E6@gmail.com> References: <55C4EC1C.1010706@solarray.com> <0F2ADB18-712D-402E-9112-24556B8A90E6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55C51A2F.607@solarray.com> We did a shake roof, and used a quick mount flashing ( I believe) that was 18" x 18". According to the directions, we had to use a roofing bar to pull out the nails to insert the flashing up under the shake. Missing nails the shakes were not secure on the neds, so we ended up using sealant to try and hold the ends down over the flashing. I felt the roof integrity suffered, but of course I can't believe that shake roofs are even a viable roofing system, so that's another story. On asphalt roofs, you need to cut part of the shingle away and also remove nails from under the layer above. THe nails can tear through both shingle layers when pulled, and you are now mising some of the original roofing structure. You are also pulling apart the adhesive that holds the shingles down to the layer below, leaving them vulnerable to wind. Working with aging shingles on a cold day they may tear or crack, while on a hot day you end up loosing some of the gravel. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against flashings, I just question other folks insistence that we are not living up to NABCEP values if we elect to not use them. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 8/7/2015 12:08 PM, Jay wrote: > Hi Ray > > Can you elaborate on how a large flashing can cause more damage than it prevents? > > Thanks > Jay > Peltz power > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Aug 7, 2015, at 10:34 AM, Ray Walters wrote: >> >> My opinion is that if the L foot has enough surface area it constitutes a flashing, and that large flashings can actually cause more damage to the roof than they prevent. >> I also agree that an attachement doesn't constitute a penetration. I just finished an install on a metal roof with hundreds of screw holes. We added a few more screw holes, and ours have 20 times the sealant surface area. We did run a 1" conduit through the roof, and since it was an actual penetration, we used a very expensive flexible boot flashing. >> Personally, I think we need about a 3"x3" or 4" x 4" L foot with a double stick butyl tape on the bottom, and all will be well. >> I realize that the OP was referring to asphalt, but I will flash other roof types that don't do well with L feet ( like shake). >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-876 >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From ray at solarray.com Fri Aug 7 16:55:59 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2015 14:55:59 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash In-Reply-To: <0dc101d0d13d$967f4dc0$c37de940$@millersolar.com> References: <55C4EC1C.1010706@solarray.com> <0dc101d0d13d$967f4dc0$c37de940$@millersolar.com> Message-ID: <55C51B5F.6020102@solarray.com> Hi William; I agree with the overlapping roof elements concept, as I mentioned in my previous post. However in many cases, (metal roofs for instance) the flashing can not be overlapped as you described, and is sealed with adhesive. It is still called a flashing, and is still acceptable to roofers. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 8/7/2015 12:19 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Ray: > > I have to respectfully disagree with your semantics. A flashing is an > overlapping of roofing materials such that gravity will direct rain > and melt water off of the roof. This is a universally accepted > waterproofing method that does not depend on any sealant material. > The concept is as ancient as the first, crude, thatched roof. > > If you place a flat object on top of roofing without an uphill > material lapping over the downhill object, you are not flashing. > > What you have described is sealant-dependent weatherproofing. > Regardless of the quality of the sealant, or lack thereof, I don’t > think you can call it a flashed attachment. > > (The overarching point is a flashed attachment does not depend on a > sealant. Any sealant has a finite lifespan. Removing the sealant > variable from the equation results in more lasting installation.) > > Sincerely, > > William Miller > > Gradient Cap_mini > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On Behalf Of *Ray Walters > *Sent:* Friday, August 07, 2015 10:34 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash > > My opinion is that if the L foot has enough surface area it > constitutes a flashing, and that large flashings can actually cause > more damage to the roof than they prevent. > I also agree that an attachement doesn't constitute a penetration. I > just finished an install on a metal roof with hundreds of screw > holes. We added a few more screw holes, and ours have 20 times the > sealant surface area. We did run a 1" conduit through the roof, and > since it was an actual penetration, we used a very expensive flexible > boot flashing. > Personally, I think we need about a 3"x3" or 4" x 4" L foot with a > double stick butyl tape on the bottom, and all will be well. > I realize that the OP was referring to asphalt, but I will flash other > roof types that don't do well with L feet ( like shake). > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1211091410-00.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 107324 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kjenergysystems at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 17:11:50 2015 From: kjenergysystems at gmail.com (Kurt Johnsen) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 17:11:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash In-Reply-To: References: <55C4EC1C.1010706@solarray.com> <0dc101d0d13d$967f4dc0$c37de940$@millersolar.com> Message-ID: Not that the names of things matter that much but imho "flashing" does require an overlapping of some kind. An Oatey boot for a metal roof is more of a bedded fitting than a flashing. It relies entirely on fasteners and a sealing membrane whereas flashings rely mostly on natural forces like gravity. Perhaps an experienced roofer weigh in on this. Kurt Johnsen On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 3:21 PM, Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > "If you place a flat object on top of roofing without an uphill material > lapping over the downhill object, you are not flashing. " > > By that logic, an Oatey boot is not a flashing for a plumbing vent on a > metal roof. > > Just sayin'... > > > Jason Szumlanski > > > On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 2:19 PM, William Miller < > william.miller at millersolar.com> wrote: > >> Ray: >> >> >> >> I have to respectfully disagree with your semantics. A flashing is an >> overlapping of roofing materials such that gravity will direct rain and >> melt water off of the roof. This is a universally accepted waterproofing >> method that does not depend on any sealant material. The concept is as >> ancient as the first, crude, thatched roof. >> >> >> >> If you place a flat object on top of roofing without an uphill material >> lapping over the downhill object, you are not flashing. >> >> >> >> What you have described is sealant-dependent weatherproofing. Regardless >> of the quality of the sealant, or lack thereof, I don’t think you can call >> it a flashed attachment. >> >> >> >> (The overarching point is a flashed attachment does not depend on a >> sealant. Any sealant has a finite lifespan. Removing the sealant variable >> from the equation results in more lasting installation.) >> >> Sincerely, >> >> >> >> William Miller >> >> >> >> >> >> [image: Gradient Cap_mini] >> Lic 773985 >> millersolar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Ray Walters >> *Sent:* Friday, August 07, 2015 10:34 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash >> >> >> >> My opinion is that if the L foot has enough surface area it constitutes a >> flashing, and that large flashings can actually cause more damage to the >> roof than they prevent. >> I also agree that an attachement doesn't constitute a penetration. I >> just finished an install on a metal roof with hundreds of screw holes. We >> added a few more screw holes, and ours have 20 times the sealant surface >> area. We did run a 1" conduit through the roof, and since it was an actual >> penetration, we used a very expensive flexible boot flashing. >> Personally, I think we need about a 3"x3" or 4" x 4" L foot with a double >> stick butyl tape on the bottom, and all will be well. >> I realize that the OP was referring to asphalt, but I will flash other >> roof types that don't do well with L feet ( like shake). >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wayne at pureenergysolar.com Fri Aug 7 17:20:17 2015 From: wayne at pureenergysolar.com (Wayne Irwin) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 17:20:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash In-Reply-To: References: , <55C4EC1C.1010706@solarray.com>, <0dc101d0d13d$967f4dc0$c37de940$@millersolar.com>, , Message-ID: http://www.usshingle.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/US-Shingle-Roof-Tune-Up.png Wayne Irwin, President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com http://PureEnergySolar.com http://SolarChargingStation.net 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 17:11:50 -0400 From: kjenergysystems at gmail.com To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash Not that the names of things matter that much but imho "flashing" does require an overlapping of some kind. An Oatey boot for a metal roof is more of a bedded fitting than a flashing. It relies entirely on fasteners and a sealing membrane whereas flashings rely mostly on natural forces like gravity. Perhaps an experienced roofer weigh in on this. Kurt Johnsen On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 3:21 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: "If you place a flat object on top of roofing without an uphill material lapping over the downhill object, you are not flashing. " By that logic, an Oatey boot is not a flashing for a plumbing vent on a metal roof. Just sayin'... Jason Szumlanski On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 2:19 PM, William Miller wrote: Ray: I have to respectfully disagree with your semantics. A flashing is an overlapping of roofing materials such that gravity will direct rain and melt water off of the roof. This is a universally accepted waterproofing method that does not depend on any sealant material. The concept is as ancient as the first, crude, thatched roof. If you place a flat object on top of roofing without an uphill material lapping over the downhill object, you are not flashing. What you have described is sealant-dependent weatherproofing. Regardless of the quality of the sealant, or lack thereof, I don’t think you can call it a flashed attachment. (The overarching point is a flashed attachment does not depend on a sealant. Any sealant has a finite lifespan. Removing the sealant variable from the equation results in more lasting installation.) Sincerely, William Miller Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 10:34 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash My opinion is that if the L foot has enough surface area it constitutes a flashing, and that large flashings can actually cause more damage to the roof than they prevent. I also agree that an attachement doesn't constitute a penetration. I just finished an install on a metal roof with hundreds of screw holes. We added a few more screw holes, and ours have 20 times the sealant surface area. We did run a 1" conduit through the roof, and since it was an actual penetration, we used a very expensive flexible boot flashing. Personally, I think we need about a 3"x3" or 4" x 4" L foot with a double stick butyl tape on the bottom, and all will be well. I realize that the OP was referring to asphalt, but I will flash other roof types that don't do well with L feet ( like shake). _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Aug 7 17:50:13 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 17:50:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash In-Reply-To: References: <55C4EC1C.1010706@solarray.com> <0dc101d0d13d$967f4dc0$c37de940$@millersolar.com> Message-ID: http://www.oatey.com/brands/oatey/regions/canada/products/flashings/roof-flashings/retro-master-flash-roof-flashings Well, the manufacturer calls it a flashing, but I agree that were talking semantics here. Flashing, in the code sense, is applied liberally in practice. The washers on the thousands of screws on a 5V metal roof must be flashings, otherwise these roofs do not meet IBC, right? Same goes for vents with boots... Unless you don't call fasteners penetrations, in which case you can't hold solar attachment fasteners to a different standard. I realize that logic escapes code writers and interpreters sometimes, but I think rational people can see it both ways. There are plenty of metal roof products that are sealed (flashed?) with EPDM gaskets or butyl tape (Sunmodo, Eco-Fasten, S-5, etc.), that are successfully implemented in real world scenarios. There are really two issues here: clarifying what is acceptable from a code perspective, and industry best practices. Both issues have interpretations and preferences, most with merit and based on lots of experience. Martini shaken or stirred? We're probably not going to agree on a single solution as an industry. I have metal flashings on my shingle roof at home - it's my preference, but I don't think it is a requirement, nor do I think "unflashed" fasteners are unacceptable. Jason On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 5:11 PM, Kurt Johnsen wrote: > Not that the names of things matter that much but imho "flashing" does > require an overlapping of some kind. An Oatey boot for a metal roof is more > of a bedded fitting than a flashing. It relies entirely on fasteners and a > sealing membrane whereas flashings rely mostly on natural forces like > gravity. Perhaps an experienced roofer weigh in on this. > > Kurt Johnsen > > On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 3:21 PM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> "If you place a flat object on top of roofing without an uphill material >> lapping over the downhill object, you are not flashing. " >> >> By that logic, an Oatey boot is not a flashing for a plumbing vent on a >> metal roof. >> >> Just sayin'... >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> >> On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 2:19 PM, William Miller < >> william.miller at millersolar.com> wrote: >> >>> Ray: >>> >>> >>> >>> I have to respectfully disagree with your semantics. A flashing is an >>> overlapping of roofing materials such that gravity will direct rain and >>> melt water off of the roof. This is a universally accepted waterproofing >>> method that does not depend on any sealant material. The concept is as >>> ancient as the first, crude, thatched roof. >>> >>> >>> >>> If you place a flat object on top of roofing without an uphill material >>> lapping over the downhill object, you are not flashing. >>> >>> >>> >>> What you have described is sealant-dependent weatherproofing. >>> Regardless of the quality of the sealant, or lack thereof, I don’t think >>> you can call it a flashed attachment. >>> >>> >>> >>> (The overarching point is a flashed attachment does not depend on a >>> sealant. Any sealant has a finite lifespan. Removing the sealant variable >>> from the equation results in more lasting installation.) >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> >>> >>> William Miller >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> [image: Gradient Cap_mini] >>> Lic 773985 >>> millersolar.com >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >>> Behalf Of *Ray Walters >>> *Sent:* Friday, August 07, 2015 10:34 AM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash >>> >>> >>> >>> My opinion is that if the L foot has enough surface area it constitutes >>> a flashing, and that large flashings can actually cause more damage to the >>> roof than they prevent. >>> I also agree that an attachement doesn't constitute a penetration. I >>> just finished an install on a metal roof with hundreds of screw holes. We >>> added a few more screw holes, and ours have 20 times the sealant surface >>> area. We did run a 1" conduit through the roof, and since it was an actual >>> penetration, we used a very expensive flexible boot flashing. >>> Personally, I think we need about a 3"x3" or 4" x 4" L foot with a >>> double stick butyl tape on the bottom, and all will be well. >>> I realize that the OP was referring to asphalt, but I will flash other >>> roof types that don't do well with L feet ( like shake). >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From david.brearley at solarprofessional.com Fri Aug 7 17:53:15 2015 From: david.brearley at solarprofessional.com (David Brearley) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 16:53:15 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <73888B23-D150-42B7-8A9E-6388D69B5A6F@solarprofessional.com> It may be helpful to distinguish between exposed-fastener metal roofs and other roofing systems. If you’re working on a metal roof that is attached with exposed fasteners, I don’t know of any practical solution for retrofitting PV without adding more exposed fasteners. And, yes, the mastic under the L-foot will likely outlast the waterproofing around the roof attachments. However, according to conversations I’ve had with James Kirby, exposed fastener metal roofs are not an NRCA-approved/recognized roofing system. The waterproofing methods on exposed-fastener metal roofs are inherently inconsistent with NRCA standards. Other roofing systems are consistent with NRCA standards. If you don’t use flashing with these NRCA-approved roofing systems, your PV attachment method is going to compromise the waterproofing for the roof system. You can’t really argue that point, because there are established standards that apply to flashing and waterproofing according to roof type. David Brearley Senior Technical Editor, SolarPro NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional david.brearley at solarprofessional.com Direct: 541.261.6545 Follow us on Twitter: @SolarPro Check out this AMAZING music video tribute to SolarPro: http://bit.ly/1qfMCCh -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wayne at pureenergysolar.com Fri Aug 7 18:00:56 2015 From: wayne at pureenergysolar.com (Wayne Irwin) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 18:00:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Between module gasket system Message-ID: We have a customer with a ground mount system that would like to seal the 1" gap (UniRac) between the modules so that he can have a dry space underneath the array. Any product recommendations or DIY suggestions? Thanks, Wayne Irwin, President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com http://PureEnergySolar.com http://SolarChargingStation.net 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Fri Aug 7 20:26:15 2015 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 18:26:15 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Between module gasket system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A real DIY would be to use masking tape on the top side of the gap then fill from the bottom with a sealant (or I suppose taping the bottom side and fill from the top would work too). It wouldn't have to be completely full as long as it covers fully from side to side and relative thick/deep (half mod frame thickness?) I would use the roof sealant that we use... Henry 925, since it is designed to stay flexible and withstand dynamic movement and good for up to a 1" gap. Then next day remove the tape, unless you use a very high quality tape to begin with. I'm sure there are better ways or at least improvements that can be made this initial suggestion, but it's my day off, sort of ;) Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 > On Aug 7, 2015, at 4:00 PM, Wayne Irwin wrote: > > We have a customer with a ground mount system that would like to seal the 1" gap (UniRac) between the modules so that he can have a dry space underneath the array. > > Any product recommendations or DIY suggestions? > > Thanks, > > > Wayne Irwin, > President > License #CVC56695 > State Licensed Solar Contractor > Pure Energy Solar International Inc. > Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com > http://PureEnergySolar.com > http://SolarChargingStation.net > 352 377-6527 Office > 352 336-3299 Fax > > > The Sun Is Always Shining! > > The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sat Aug 8 14:57:46 2015 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Sat, 08 Aug 2015 14:57:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC Disconnects incorporated into grid-tie inverters. flammable surfaces In-Reply-To: <0cc701d0d0be$c4141b00$4c3c5100$@millersolar.com> References: <0cc701d0d0be$c4141b00$4c3c5100$@millersolar.com> Message-ID: <20150808185758.26BC9103A4@che.dreamhost.com> Hello William, A separable DC disconnect is very important to me, and certainly should be standard equipment. On the issue of flammable materials, I had the same question on an installation. A tech support person claimed that flammable referred to easily ignitable materials where as combustible referred to materials like wood. He told me it was ok to mount their inverter on a wood surface, as it was combustible, but not flammable. I've heard no more about the subject since. I hope it is true. Looking up the words in the dictionary, I don't seem that distinction. Drake Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ At 11:11 PM 8/6/2015, you wrote: >Content-Type: multipart/related; > boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0CC8_01D0D084.17B73ED0" >Content-Language: en-us > >Dear Friends: > >I have been pursuing some answers from Solectria on what appear to >be significant defects in the design of their residential PVI series >inverters. I have finally received some final answers from them on >a few issues and I am waiting on final answers on >others. Unfortunately the answers are not good. > >1. Apparently the electronics portion of the PVI series inverter >cannot be separated from the DC disconnect. If you want to replace >that inverter, you need to remove the entire chassis. This of >course exposes the lone service worker to high voltage DC. The unit >looks like it can be separated but they tell me it cannot be. This >reminds me of the Fronius IG series inverter. I argued with Fronius >for an entire day about how idiotic it was to propose tarping panels >to protect service workers. I submit that an inverter without a >separatable disconnect requires an outboard DC disconnect or it is >not viable. The DC disconnect adds cost and clutter to any install. > >Solectria has an outboard, remotely activated disconnect. I was >hoping to get my hands on one at a recent local sales seminar >Solectria held, but the goofball presenting the seminar did not >bother bringing one ( I can call him a goof ball because he has >since left Solectria. I would not otherwise call anyone at a >manufacturer a name, they are all good people doing the best job >they can with the products they are hired to represent). Anyway, >before I bid another Solectria I will price compare with the cost of >the remote disconnect included. I won't install one until I have >touched the device to verify it is suitable. > >I am taking a poll: Which GT inverters have included, separatable >DC disconnects? How easy are they to replace? How important is it >to you that the DC disconnect be separatable? > >2. The Solectria PVI installation manual indicates the inverter >is not to be mounted to "flammable surfaces." You cannot mount >these inverter on a wood surface, indoors or out. The bracket is >not wide enough to span two studs in most cases, so if you are >mounting it inside, you cannot mount it on a plywood backboard and >you cannot mount it on the exterior of a wood-sheeted structure. It >is not unlikely that if any trees are near your inverter, a few >leaves will likely become lodged behind the inverter over time and >they then could burst into flames. To me this inverter heating >seems very limiting. It makes me think: do I want to install a >fire-starter on or in my customers homes? > >Do any of you know of any other inverters that get hot enough to >ignite the surface onto which they are mounted? > >Thanks for the input. > >William Miller > >Gradient Cap_mini > >Lic 773985 >millersolar.com >805-438-5600 > > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1ae91448.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 3355 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Sat Aug 8 15:51:58 2015 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (William Dorsett) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 14:51:58 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash In-Reply-To: References: , <55C4EC1C.1010706@solarray.com>, <0dc101d0d13d$967f4dc0$c37de940$@millersolar.com>, , Message-ID: <003101d0d213$b03158e0$10940aa0$@sbcglobal.net> I agree with Ray on this, but think the neoprene boot here is so badly separated more likely because the house is settling around it. Still it cracked due to UV and would have failed anyway. Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Wayne Irwin Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 4:20 PM To: Wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash http://www.usshingle.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/US-Shingle-Roof-Tune-Up. png Wayne Irwin, President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com http://PureEnergySolar.com http://SolarChargingStation.net 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. _____ Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 17:11:50 -0400 From: kjenergysystems at gmail.com To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash Not that the names of things matter that much but imho "flashing" does require an overlapping of some kind. An Oatey boot for a metal roof is more of a bedded fitting than a flashing. It relies entirely on fasteners and a sealing membrane whereas flashings rely mostly on natural forces like gravity. Perhaps an experienced roofer weigh in on this. Kurt Johnsen On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 3:21 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: "If you place a flat object on top of roofing without an uphill material lapping over the downhill object, you are not flashing. " By that logic, an Oatey boot is not a flashing for a plumbing vent on a metal roof. Just sayin'... Jason Szumlanski On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 2:19 PM, William Miller wrote: Ray: I have to respectfully disagree with your semantics. A flashing is an overlapping of roofing materials such that gravity will direct rain and melt water off of the roof. This is a universally accepted waterproofing method that does not depend on any sealant material. The concept is as ancient as the first, crude, thatched roof. If you place a flat object on top of roofing without an uphill material lapping over the downhill object, you are not flashing. What you have described is sealant-dependent weatherproofing. Regardless of the quality of the sealant, or lack thereof, I don't think you can call it a flashed attachment. (The overarching point is a flashed attachment does not depend on a sealant. Any sealant has a finite lifespan. Removing the sealant variable from the equation results in more lasting installation.) Sincerely, William Miller Gradient Cap_mini Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 10:34 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash My opinion is that if the L foot has enough surface area it constitutes a flashing, and that large flashings can actually cause more damage to the roof than they prevent. I also agree that an attachement doesn't constitute a penetration. I just finished an install on a metal roof with hundreds of screw holes. We added a few more screw holes, and ours have 20 times the sealant surface area. We did run a 1" conduit through the roof, and since it was an actual penetration, we used a very expensive flexible boot flashing. Personally, I think we need about a 3"x3" or 4" x 4" L foot with a double stick butyl tape on the bottom, and all will be well. I realize that the OP was referring to asphalt, but I will flash other roof types that don't do well with L feet ( like shake). _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Aug 8 21:05:12 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Sat, 08 Aug 2015 15:05:12 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash Message-ID: <6nfrtjl2crw0xae230veejnx.1439082311386@email.android.com> Wrenches We stay away from anything with a rubber type boot as it will shrink over time in the shade of the array or not. You all night want to look at the sunmodo out of Washington. Have had no leak issues or installation issues, there is no exposed rubber and the flashing is malleable and can be shaped around the roofing materials and does not lift up on the corners Jerry Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: William Dorsett
Date:08/08/2015 9:51 AM (GMT-10:00)
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash
I agree with Ray on this, but think the neoprene boot here is so badly separated more likely because the house is settling around it. Still it cracked due to UV and would have failed anyway. Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Wayne Irwin Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 4:20 PM To: Wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash http://www.usshingle.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/US-Shingle-Roof-Tune-Up.png Wayne Irwin, President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com http://PureEnergySolar.com http://SolarChargingStation.net 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 17:11:50 -0400 From: kjenergysystems at gmail.com To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash Not that the names of things matter that much but imho "flashing" does require an overlapping of some kind. An Oatey boot for a metal roof is more of a bedded fitting than a flashing. It relies entirely on fasteners and a sealing membrane whereas flashings rely mostly on natural forces like gravity. Perhaps an experienced roofer weigh in on this. Kurt Johnsen On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 3:21 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: "If you place a flat object on top of roofing without an uphill material lapping over the downhill object, you are not flashing. " By that logic, an Oatey boot is not a flashing for a plumbing vent on a metal roof. Just sayin'... Jason Szumlanski On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 2:19 PM, William Miller wrote: Ray: I have to respectfully disagree with your semantics. A flashing is an overlapping of roofing materials such that gravity will direct rain and melt water off of the roof. This is a universally accepted waterproofing method that does not depend on any sealant material. The concept is as ancient as the first, crude, thatched roof. If you place a flat object on top of roofing without an uphill material lapping over the downhill object, you are not flashing. What you have described is sealant-dependent weatherproofing. Regardless of the quality of the sealant, or lack thereof, I don’t think you can call it a flashed attachment. (The overarching point is a flashed attachment does not depend on a sealant. Any sealant has a finite lifespan. Removing the sealant variable from the equation results in more lasting installation.) Sincerely, William Miller Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 10:34 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash My opinion is that if the L foot has enough surface area it constitutes a flashing, and that large flashings can actually cause more damage to the roof than they prevent. I also agree that an attachement doesn't constitute a penetration. I just finished an install on a metal roof with hundreds of screw holes. We added a few more screw holes, and ours have 20 times the sealant surface area. We did run a 1" conduit through the roof, and since it was an actual penetration, we used a very expensive flexible boot flashing. Personally, I think we need about a 3"x3" or 4" x 4" L foot with a double stick butyl tape on the bottom, and all will be well. I realize that the OP was referring to asphalt, but I will flash other roof types that don't do well with L feet ( like shake). _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Aug 9 13:42:59 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 10:42:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback batteries In-Reply-To: <20150808185758.26BC9103A4@che.dreamhost.com> References: <0cc701d0d0be$c4141b00$4c3c5100$@millersolar.com> <20150808185758.26BC9103A4@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <8D8600CF-CE6B-46D3-9A6D-F5F57999FFDF@gmail.com> HI All, does anybody have any experience with the Outback energy cell RE High Capacity series batteries? thanks jay peltz power From eric at harvesthesun.com Sun Aug 9 23:22:42 2015 From: eric at harvesthesun.com (SunHarvest) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 20:22:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flashed Roof-attachment systems In-Reply-To: <094d01d0cfce$66c3b960$344b2c20$@millersolar.com> References: <094d01d0cfce$66c3b960$344b2c20$@millersolar.com> Message-ID: Hi William, I've used QuickMount almost exclusively for the past 5 or so years. Good product. Lots of options including height extension blocks. They also have conduit flashings for running emt on a roof. Good documentation for permitting as well. I believe they have a 20yr warranty too. Eric Stikes GoodSun Solar A CA. Non-profit Corp. 001.530.798.3738 (cell) www.goodsun.life [message sent from cell phone] > On Aug 5, 2015, at 3:30 PM, "William Miller" wrote: > > Friends: > > We have been using the Eco-Fasten flashings for comp roofs. We have a few complaints: > > 1. We have been using the Eco-Fasten blocks and Unirac serrated L-feet. There is not enough room below the foot to install the neoprene washer, the block, the bonded washer, the washer, the lock washer and the nut. The L-foot runs into the nut. > 2. The flashing is not wide enough (12” high by 8” wide). If the flashing ends up on the split between two 3-tab shingles there is an obvious leak path. > 3. The company does not offer a decent cut-sheet. This is crucial to the permit authoring process. > 4. We can’t seem to get the rail height correct. We would prefer about 4” to the top of the rail. > a. The L102-3 results in a rail height of 3”. > b. The L102-6 is 6” rail height—this is too high. > c. The block with the Unirac serrated L-foot results in 3-3/4”, but the combination of parts does not really fit and it is expensive. > > We have also tried the Iron Ridge and it seems to offer some improvements: > 1. The flashing is larger (12” by 12”). > 2. The rail height is about 3-1/4”, still a little low. > > I posted some photos and comments on our web site: > http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/Flashed_roof_attachments/FlashedRoofAttachements.html > > Do any of you have any suggestions for a flashed foot system with a rail height of about 4” and a wider flashing? Do any of you have any comments on products you like or don’t like for our review? > > Thanks in advance. > > William Miller > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Aug 10 05:42:23 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 05:42:23 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash In-Reply-To: References: <55C4EC1C.1010706@solarray.com> <0dc101d0d13d$967f4dc0$c37de940$@millersolar.com> Message-ID: Although my mind is kinda' made up, this thread has really got me thinking and researching. I scoured the NRCA manual, which does not really define "penetration," but it does say in the shingle manual: "Penetration Flashings: There are many small penetrations that need to be flashed into asphalt shingle roof systems, such as vent pipes, exhaust vents, exhaust fans, furnace or water heater flue pipes, electrical standpipes and others." There is also a graphical figure showing these various penetrations. The one thing these all have in common is that there is a substantial air gap cut fully through the roof plane. It occurred to me that ridge caps and vents on shingle roofs use exposed fasteners to nail or screw them to the decking. The NRCA manual says about this: "Exposed fasteners should be sealed with elastomeric sealant or asphalt roof cement on the last ridge piece of a run, at the intersection of hips to a ridge and at the intersection of a ridge to another plane." Also read the Snow Guard section for metal roofs, which allows attachments sealed to the flat part of the roof pan with sealants. Until the manual specifically addressed the solar "attachments" and "fasteners" we are debating about, it's open to interpretation. On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 5:50 PM, Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > http://www.oatey.com/brands/oatey/regions/canada/products/flashings/roof-flashings/retro-master-flash-roof-flashings > > Well, the manufacturer calls it a flashing, but I agree that were talking > semantics here. Flashing, in the code sense, is applied liberally in > practice. The washers on the thousands of screws on a 5V metal roof must be > flashings, otherwise these roofs do not meet IBC, and would be prohibited, > right? Same goes for vents with screwed and sealed boots... Unless you > don't call fasteners penetrations, in which case you can't hold solar > attachment fasteners to a different standard. There are plenty of metal > roof products that are sealed (flashed?) with EPDM gaskets or butyl tape > (Sunmodo, Eco-Fasten, S-5, etc.), that are successfully implemented in real > world scenarios. > > There are really two issues here: clarifying what is acceptable from a > code perspective, and industry best practices. Martini shaken or stirred? > We're probably not going to agree on a single solution as an industry. > > I have metal flashings on my shingle roof at home - it's my preference, > but I don't think it is a requirement, nor do I think "unflashed" fasteners > are completely unacceptable. > > > Jason > > > On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 5:11 PM, Kurt Johnsen > wrote: > >> Not that the names of things matter that much but imho "flashing" does >> require an overlapping of some kind. An Oatey boot for a metal roof is more >> of a bedded fitting than a flashing. It relies entirely on fasteners and a >> sealing membrane whereas flashings rely mostly on natural forces like >> gravity. Perhaps an experienced roofer weigh in on this. >> >> Kurt Johnsen >> >> On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 3:21 PM, Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> "If you place a flat object on top of roofing without an uphill material >>> lapping over the downhill object, you are not flashing. " >>> >>> By that logic, an Oatey boot is not a flashing for a plumbing vent on a >>> metal roof. >>> >>> Just sayin'... >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 2:19 PM, William Miller < >>> william.miller at millersolar.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Ray: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I have to respectfully disagree with your semantics. A flashing is an >>>> overlapping of roofing materials such that gravity will direct rain and >>>> melt water off of the roof. This is a universally accepted waterproofing >>>> method that does not depend on any sealant material. The concept is as >>>> ancient as the first, crude, thatched roof. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> If you place a flat object on top of roofing without an uphill material >>>> lapping over the downhill object, you are not flashing. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What you have described is sealant-dependent weatherproofing. >>>> Regardless of the quality of the sealant, or lack thereof, I don’t think >>>> you can call it a flashed attachment. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> (The overarching point is a flashed attachment does not depend on a >>>> sealant. Any sealant has a finite lifespan. Removing the sealant variable >>>> from the equation results in more lasting installation.) >>>> >>>> Sincerely, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> William Miller >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> [image: Gradient Cap_mini] >>>> Lic 773985 >>>> millersolar.com >>>> 805-438-5600 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >>>> Behalf Of *Ray Walters >>>> *Sent:* Friday, August 07, 2015 10:34 AM >>>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> My opinion is that if the L foot has enough surface area it constitutes >>>> a flashing, and that large flashings can actually cause more damage to the >>>> roof than they prevent. >>>> I also agree that an attachement doesn't constitute a penetration. I >>>> just finished an install on a metal roof with hundreds of screw holes. We >>>> added a few more screw holes, and ours have 20 times the sealant surface >>>> area. We did run a 1" conduit through the roof, and since it was an actual >>>> penetration, we used a very expensive flexible boot flashing. >>>> Personally, I think we need about a 3"x3" or 4" x 4" L foot with a >>>> double stick butyl tape on the bottom, and all will be well. >>>> I realize that the OP was referring to asphalt, but I will flash other >>>> roof types that don't do well with L feet ( like shake). >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dyoung at dovetailsolar.com Mon Aug 10 10:10:45 2015 From: dyoung at dovetailsolar.com (Daniel Young) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 10:10:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Between module gasket system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00d201d0d376$59b01ce0$0d1056a0$@com> We did this on a job once, we have 1yr on the install and so far, so good. It had the side-effect of slowing down the time it takes to melt/slough off snow, due to the fact that the snow blanket was now continuous, and so it held onto itself as one large sheet, not letting the smaller slabs of snow slide off at will. The open gaps actually let the snow act like a sheet of postage stamps, the gaps act like a perforation, letting the snow break apart more easily and slide away. We simply treated it like a large gap needing sealant. We used the appropriately sized foam backer rod, cleaned the parts of the module frame that needed to be sealed with rubbing alcohol, inserted the backer rod from the top (you might want some painters tape under the frames to keep the rod from falling through the bottom), then applied a roofing style silicone (we used DOW 795) and applied it in the hour-glass shape needed to help provide for long term durability/adhesion. Then you can just remove the backer rod from below after a day or two. It cut the water coming through by around 95%. The trick is the mid clamps, it’s difficult to get the seal to be durable at those locations, so pay attention there. If you have a bottom clamped system, you should be home free. Remember most solar modules are not water proof at the interface between the glass and the aluminum frame (also the corners of the aluminum frame are generally a weak spot for water too), so expect some water to drip through. Standard crystalline framed Solar modules are just not designed to be a roofing material…your shooting for less water getting through, you can’t stop it 100% without something under the array o catch it. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Benn Kilburn Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 8:26 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Between module gasket system A real DIY would be to use masking tape on the top side of the gap then fill from the bottom with a sealant (or I suppose taping the bottom side and fill from the top would work too). It wouldn't have to be completely full as long as it covers fully from side to side and relative thick/deep (half mod frame thickness?) I would use the roof sealant that we use... Henry 925, since it is designed to stay flexible and withstand dynamic movement and good for up to a 1" gap. Then next day remove the tape, unless you use a very high quality tape to begin with. I'm sure there are better ways or at least improvements that can be made this initial suggestion, but it's my day off, sort of ;) Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 On Aug 7, 2015, at 4:00 PM, Wayne Irwin wrote: We have a customer with a ground mount system that would like to seal the 1" gap (UniRac) between the modules so that he can have a dry space underneath the array. Any product recommendations or DIY suggestions? Thanks, Wayne Irwin, President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com http://PureEnergySolar.com http://SolarChargingStation.net 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6086 / Virus Database: 4392/10391 - Release Date: 08/07/15 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Mon Aug 10 17:52:33 2015 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 14:52:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] clear sealant recommendations Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, For the most part we are using Chemlink M1 sealant for to seal our rooftop penetrations. It hasn’t let us down yet. M1 is a available in several opaque colors and grey is the most common. Sometimes we want a good quality clear sealant to put around conduit fittings, where our conduit enters buildings, etc. We used Geocell 2300 in the past and I don’t have anything bad to say to it but our current supplier doesn’t carry Geocell products. More recently we’ve tried Chemlink Clear sealant but I’ve already seen signs that it doesn’t hold up well in the elements – it seems to peel off the surface it was installed on and turn brown relatively fast. Does anyone have a good multipurpose clear sealant that they like? Best, August -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william.white at rgsenergy.com Tue Aug 11 08:58:03 2015 From: william.white at rgsenergy.com (Will White) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 12:58:03 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] clear sealant recommendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We’ve use Geocel 2300 for years now with good results. They’ve also come out with a new product specifically for solar: http://www.geocelusa.com/product/all-constructionbuilding-products/s2-solar-panel-sealant-detail.html I’m not sure what the technical differences are but I know it comes in a plastic tube instead of the paper one so that helps prevent them from blowing out when they get a little damp. Thanks, Will Will White Director of Construction – East Coast RGS Energy 64 Main St. |Montpelier, VT 05602 tel 802.223.7804 | mobile 802.234.3167 | fax 802.223.8980 RGSEnergy.com | william.white at rgsenergy.com Confidentiality Note: This e-mail message may contain confidential or legally privileged information and is intended only for the use of the intended recipient(s). Any unauthorized disclosure, dissemination, distribution, copying or the taking of any action in reliance on the information herein is prohibited. E-mails are not secure and cannot be guaranteed to be error free as they can be intercepted, amended, or contain viruses. Anyone who communicates with us by e-mail is deemed to have accepted these risks. RGS Energy is not responsible for errors or omissions in this message and denies any responsibility for any damage arising from the use of e-mail. Any opinion and other statement contained in this message and any attachment are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 5:53 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] clear sealant recommendations Hi Wrenches, For the most part we are using Chemlink M1 sealant for to seal our rooftop penetrations. It hasn’t let us down yet. M1 is a available in several opaque colors and grey is the most common. Sometimes we want a good quality clear sealant to put around conduit fittings, where our conduit enters buildings, etc. We used Geocell 2300 in the past and I don’t have anything bad to say to it but our current supplier doesn’t carry Geocell products. More recently we’ve tried Chemlink Clear sealant but I’ve already seen signs that it doesn’t hold up well in the elements – it seems to peel off the surface it was installed on and turn brown relatively fast. Does anyone have a good multipurpose clear sealant that they like? Best, August -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Tue Aug 11 14:01:10 2015 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 11:01:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] clear sealant recommendations Message-ID: At recommendation from a roofer couple years ago, we have been using this product: http://www.sashco.com/products/lexel/ Not used long enough to know if it stands the test of time. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of August Goers Sent: August 10, 2015 2:53 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] clear sealant recommendations Hi Wrenches, For the most part we are using Chemlink M1 sealant for to seal our rooftop penetrations. It hasn’t let us down yet. M1 is a available in several opaque colors and grey is the most common. Sometimes we want a good quality clear sealant to put around conduit fittings, where our conduit enters buildings, etc. We used Geocell 2300 in the past and I don’t have anything bad to say to it but our current supplier doesn’t carry Geocell products. More recently we’ve tried Chemlink Clear sealant but I’ve already seen signs that it doesn’t hold up well in the elements – it seems to peel off the surface it was installed on and turn brown relatively fast. Does anyone have a good multipurpose clear sealant that they like? Best, August -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 11 14:59:40 2015 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (William Dorsett) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 13:59:40 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] clear sealant recommendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <011f01d0d467$e1811ec0$a4835c40$@sbcglobal.net> When we used zip ties for managing wire, we were advised to buy the black ones because the pigment made them more impervious to UV. It might work the same way with clear vers opaque sealing polymers. Those with the most pigment held up best. Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 4:53 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] clear sealant recommendations Hi Wrenches, For the most part we are using Chemlink M1 sealant for to seal our rooftop penetrations. It hasn’t let us down yet. M1 is a available in several opaque colors and grey is the most common. Sometimes we want a good quality clear sealant to put around conduit fittings, where our conduit enters buildings, etc. We used Geocell 2300 in the past and I don’t have anything bad to say to it but our current supplier doesn’t carry Geocell products. More recently we’ve tried Chemlink Clear sealant but I’ve already seen signs that it doesn’t hold up well in the elements – it seems to peel off the surface it was installed on and turn brown relatively fast. Does anyone have a good multipurpose clear sealant that they like? Best, August -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Aug 11 15:14:58 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 15:14:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] clear sealant recommendations In-Reply-To: <011f01d0d467$e1811ec0$a4835c40$@sbcglobal.net> References: <011f01d0d467$e1811ec0$a4835c40$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: It's my understanding that "carbon black" is what adds to the UV resistance of polyethylene solar pool heating panels. I'm not a materials engineer by any means, but perhaps there is some link. Between Chemlink and Geocel, there is usually a color that is a close enough match for my liking, but it would be nice to know if there is a good clear option. Jason Szumlanski On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 2:59 PM, William Dorsett wrote: > When we used zip ties for managing wire, we were advised to buy the black > ones because the pigment made them more impervious to UV. It might work the > same way with clear vers opaque sealing polymers. Those with the most > pigment held up best. > > > > Bill Dorsett > > Manhattan, KS > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *August Goers > *Sent:* Monday, August 10, 2015 4:53 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] clear sealant recommendations > > > > Hi Wrenches, > > > > For the most part we are using Chemlink M1 sealant for to seal our rooftop > penetrations. It hasn’t let us down yet. > > > > M1 is a available in several opaque colors and grey is the most common. > Sometimes we want a good quality clear sealant to put around conduit > fittings, where our conduit enters buildings, etc. We used Geocell 2300 in > the past and I don’t have anything bad to say to it but our current > supplier doesn’t carry Geocell products. More recently we’ve tried Chemlink > Clear sealant but I’ve already seen signs that it doesn’t hold up well in > the elements – it seems to peel off the surface it was installed on and > turn brown relatively fast. > > > > Does anyone have a good multipurpose clear sealant that they like? > > > > Best, > > > > August > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at harvesthesun.com Tue Aug 11 17:07:18 2015 From: eric at harvesthesun.com (SunHarvest) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 14:07:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] clear sealant recommendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3E4E98EE-859E-459E-8755-BB3B7F3EA2C1@harvesthesun.com> I like 'Through The Roof'. Eric Stikes Owner, SunHarvest Solar CA. Solar Contractor #968280 Founding Director, GoodSun Solar CA. Non-profit Corp. 001.530.798.3738 (cell) www.harvesthesun.com [message sent from cell phone] > On Aug 10, 2015, at 2:52 PM, August Goers wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, > > For the most part we are using Chemlink M1 sealant for to seal our rooftop penetrations. It hasn’t let us down yet. > > M1 is a available in several opaque colors and grey is the most common. Sometimes we want a good quality clear sealant to put around conduit fittings, where our conduit enters buildings, etc. We used Geocell 2300 in the past and I don’t have anything bad to say to it but our current supplier doesn’t carry Geocell products. More recently we’ve tried Chemlink Clear sealant but I’ve already seen signs that it doesn’t hold up well in the elements – it seems to peel off the surface it was installed on and turn brown relatively fast. > > Does anyone have a good multipurpose clear sealant that they like? > > Best, > > August > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Aug 11 18:19:51 2015 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 15:19:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] wiring methods between arrays Message-ID: <62f6be592baac5311023955c884235b2@mail.gmail.com> Hi Wrenches, I have another best practices questions: what are you doing to run your PV wire between arrays on a rooftops? This question has come up on this list in the past but I’m still on the hunt for a robust and faster lower cost method. We mostly install outdoor boxes on each sub array and then run EMT between these boxes. We use strain reliefs to enter the boxes and then either keep PV wire or transition to THWN-2 in the EMT depending on the layout. This method takes time and the outdoor boxes aren’t cheap. Alternatively, we can run open-ended EMT with ground bushings on the ends to bond the conduit. Since ground bushings are designed to be used in boxes we switch out the aluminum lug with a tin-coated outdoor rated lug and stainless hardware. This technically violates the listing but at least the materials hold up. The EMT needs to be carefully bent down at the ends so rain doesn’t enter. Lastly, we sometimes run our PV wires along strut or angle aluminum (this is the fastest method) which also needs to be bonded with a lay-in lug. Does anyone have other methods? Best, August Luminalt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at seesolar.com Tue Aug 11 18:36:59 2015 From: max at seesolar.com (Max Balchowsky) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 22:36:59 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] clear sealant recommendations In-Reply-To: <3E4E98EE-859E-459E-8755-BB3B7F3EA2C1@harvesthesun.com> References: <3E4E98EE-859E-459E-8755-BB3B7F3EA2C1@harvesthesun.com> Message-ID: <2028008432.3157494.1439332619277.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> We've been using M1 and "Thru the Roof" sealant for years with good success......  Max Balchowsky Design Engineer Golden Bridge Development 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 760-403-6810"Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" From: SunHarvest To: RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 2:07 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] clear sealant recommendations I like 'Through The Roof'. Eric StikesOwner, SunHarvest Solar  CA. Solar Contractor #968280 Founding Director, GoodSun Solar  CA. Non-profit Corp.001.530.798.3738 (cell)www.harvesthesun.com[message sent from cell phone] On Aug 10, 2015, at 2:52 PM, August Goers wrote: #yiv0171693954 #yiv0171693954 -- _filtered #yiv0171693954 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv0171693954 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}#yiv0171693954 #yiv0171693954 p.yiv0171693954MsoNormal, #yiv0171693954 li.yiv0171693954MsoNormal, #yiv0171693954 div.yiv0171693954MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:11.0pt;}#yiv0171693954 a:link, #yiv0171693954 span.yiv0171693954MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv0171693954 a:visited, #yiv0171693954 span.yiv0171693954MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv0171693954 span.yiv0171693954EmailStyle17 {color:windowtext;}#yiv0171693954 .yiv0171693954MsoChpDefault {} _filtered #yiv0171693954 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv0171693954 div.yiv0171693954WordSection1 {}#yiv0171693954 Hi Wrenches, For the most part we are using Chemlink M1 sealant for to seal our rooftop penetrations. It hasn’t let us down yet. M1 is a available in several opaque colors and grey is the most common. Sometimes we want a good quality clear sealant to put around conduit fittings, where our conduit enters buildings, etc. We used Geocell 2300 in the past and I don’t have anything bad to say to it but our current supplier doesn’t carry Geocell products. More recently we’ve tried Chemlink Clear sealant but I’ve already seen signs that it doesn’t hold up well in the elements – it seems to peel off the surface it was installed on and turn brown relatively fast. Does anyone have a good multipurpose clear sealant that they like? Best, August   _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atruitt at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 18:42:24 2015 From: atruitt at gmail.com (Andrew Truitt) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 16:42:24 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] wiring methods between arrays In-Reply-To: <62f6be592baac5311023955c884235b2@mail.gmail.com> References: <62f6be592baac5311023955c884235b2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I've seen the grounding clamp method a few times: [image: Inline image 1] If the clamp is outdoor rated (unlike this one) then I think its an acceptable method. For a brighter energy future, Andrew Truitt Principal Truitt Renewable Energy Consulting, LLC (202) 486-7507 LinkedIn Profile Company Website NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 <%28202%29%20486-7507> [image: 24 copy.jpg] "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" ~William McDonough On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 4:19 PM, August Goers wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > > > I have another best practices questions: what are you doing to run your PV > wire between arrays on a rooftops? This question has come up on this list > in the past but I’m still on the hunt for a robust and faster lower cost > method. We mostly install outdoor boxes on each sub array and then run EMT > between these boxes. We use strain reliefs to enter the boxes and then > either keep PV wire or transition to THWN-2 in the EMT depending on the > layout. This method takes time and the outdoor boxes aren’t cheap. > Alternatively, we can run open-ended EMT with ground bushings on the ends > to bond the conduit. Since ground bushings are designed to be used in boxes > we switch out the aluminum lug with a tin-coated outdoor rated lug and > stainless hardware. This technically violates the listing but at least the > materials hold up. The EMT needs to be carefully bent down at the ends so > rain doesn’t enter. Lastly, we sometimes run our PV wires along strut or > angle aluminum (this is the fastest method) which also needs to be bonded > with a lay-in lug. > > > > Does anyone have other methods? > > > > Best, > > > > August > > Luminalt > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 35142 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 429189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william.miller at millersolar.com Tue Aug 11 18:48:43 2015 From: william.miller at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 15:48:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] wiring methods between arrays Message-ID: <146801d0d487$e380b1c0$aa821540$@millersolar.com> August: I know conduit and boxes seem way too hard for the new generation of plug-and-play installers. Because of this we’ve seen a trend to cheapen how we run DC circuits. We can’t let this dissuade us from doing our jobs safely and correctly. If this question were asked about any other kind of power circuit, Journeymen and women would shake their heads wondering why the fuss about a little bit of EMT work. Power circuits, DC or AC, deserve to be protected in conduit, cable tray or other approved methods, and those methods have long been established. I don’t imagine you could install rooftop air conditioner feeders by cable-tying them along strut or conduit. Why is it that PV installers figure this is OK for 600 volt DC circuits? I think it is bad enough that high voltage DC circuits are allowed to be unprotected under arrays, but once the circuit leaves the perimeter of the array there is no excuse to leave the conductors vulnerable to damage and to hurt people. The problem is that, although you are ethical enough to weigh the long term implications of various solutions, many installers and inspectors are not. Many then get away with or approve of tying high voltage cables to whatever is handy. You and I cannot therefore do a safe job and provide bids that are competitive in price. Sorry if I appear to have a strong opinion on this subject, but poor electrical practices do kill people, and I take that seriously. Sincerely, William Miller Gradient Cap_mini Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 3:20 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] wiring methods between arrays Hi Wrenches, I have another best practices questions: what are you doing to run your PV wire between arrays on a rooftops? This question has come up on this list in the past but I’m still on the hunt for a robust and faster lower cost method. We mostly install outdoor boxes on each sub array and then run EMT between these boxes. We use strain reliefs to enter the boxes and then either keep PV wire or transition to THWN-2 in the EMT depending on the layout. This method takes time and the outdoor boxes aren’t cheap. Alternatively, we can run open-ended EMT with ground bushings on the ends to bond the conduit. Since ground bushings are designed to be used in boxes we switch out the aluminum lug with a tin-coated outdoor rated lug and stainless hardware. This technically violates the listing but at least the materials hold up. The EMT needs to be carefully bent down at the ends so rain doesn’t enter. Lastly, we sometimes run our PV wires along strut or angle aluminum (this is the fastest method) which also needs to be bonded with a lay-in lug. Does anyone have other methods? Best, August Luminalt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Aug 11 20:30:34 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 17:30:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] wiring methods between arrays In-Reply-To: <62f6be592baac5311023955c884235b2@mail.gmail.com> References: <62f6be592baac5311023955c884235b2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: August: I know conduit and boxes seem way too hard for the new generation of plug-and-play installers. Because of this we’ve seen a trend to cheapen how we run DC circuits. We can’t let this dissuade us from doing our jobs safely and correctly. If this question were asked about any other kind of power circuit, Journeymen and women would shake their heads wondering why the fuss about a little bit of EMT work. Power circuits, DC or AC, deserve to be protected in conduit, cable tray or other approved methods, and those methods have long been established. I don’t imagine you could install rooftop air conditioner feeders by cable-tying them along strut or conduit. Why is it that PV installers figure this is OK for 600 volt DC circuits? I think it is bad enough that high voltage DC circuits are allowed to be unprotected under arrays, but once the circuit leaves the perimeter of the array there is no excuse to leave the conductors vulnerable to damage and to hurt people. The problem is that, although you are ethical enough to weigh the long term implications of various solutions, many installers and inspectors are not. Many then get away with or approve of tying high voltage cables to whatever is handy. You and I cannot therefore do a safe job and provide bids that are competitive in price. Sorry if I appear to have a strong opinion on this subject, but poor electrical practices do kill people, and I take that seriously. Sincerely, William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *August Goers *Sent:* Tuesday, August 11, 2015 3:20 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] wiring methods between arrays Hi Wrenches, I have another best practices questions: what are you doing to run your PV wire between arrays on a rooftops? This question has come up on this list in the past but I’m still on the hunt for a robust and faster lower cost method. We mostly install outdoor boxes on each sub array and then run EMT between these boxes. We use strain reliefs to enter the boxes and then either keep PV wire or transition to THWN-2 in the EMT depending on the layout. This method takes time and the outdoor boxes aren’t cheap. Alternatively, we can run open-ended EMT with ground bushings on the ends to bond the conduit. Since ground bushings are designed to be used in boxes we switch out the aluminum lug with a tin-coated outdoor rated lug and stainless hardware. This technically violates the listing but at least the materials hold up. The EMT needs to be carefully bent down at the ends so rain doesn’t enter. Lastly, we sometimes run our PV wires along strut or angle aluminum (this is the fastest method) which also needs to be bonded with a lay-in lug. Does anyone have other methods? Best, August Luminalt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Aug 11 20:50:35 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 17:50:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Obsolete circuit breaker Message-ID: <2f08d88ba18fc6c4220d0158e8eb8d57@mail.gmail.com> Friends: And the winner is: Rainshadow Solar Inc, from Orcas Island, WA. They had the breaker, good price, quick ship. I give them 5 stars. William Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Aug 11 23:09:25 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 21:09:25 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] clear sealant recommendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55CAB8E5.9010301@solarray.com> I've used Lexel before, it's the best clear caulk I've used. I used it even to repair cracks on plastic lens on concentrating modules. It holds its clarity for a long time, however I don't know if its approved for asphalt shingles. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 8/11/2015 12:01 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: > At recommendation from a roofer couple years ago, we have been using > this product: > http://www.sashco.com/products/lexel/ > Not used long enough to know if it stands the test of time. > Kevin > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]*On Behalf Of > *August Goers > *Sent:* August 10, 2015 2:53 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] clear sealant recommendations > > Hi Wrenches, > > For the most part we are using Chemlink M1 sealant for to seal our > rooftop penetrations. It hasn’t let us down yet. > > M1 is a available in several opaque colors and grey is the most > common. Sometimes we want a good quality clear sealant to put > around conduit fittings, where our conduit enters buildings, etc. > We used Geocell 2300 in the past and I don’t have anything bad to > say to it but our current supplier doesn’t carry Geocell products. > More recently we’ve tried Chemlink Clear sealant but I’ve already > seen signs that it doesn’t hold up well in the elements – it seems > to peel off the surface it was installed on and turn brown > relatively fast. > > Does anyone have a good multipurpose clear sealant that they like? > > Best, > > August > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Wed Aug 12 06:21:56 2015 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (William Dorsett) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 05:21:56 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] wiring methods between arrays In-Reply-To: <62f6be592baac5311023955c884235b2@mail.gmail.com> References: <62f6be592baac5311023955c884235b2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <01bd01d0d4e8$b9144940$2b3cdbc0$@sbcglobal.net> August, if there is an attic underneath, we’ve dropped down through with a SolaDeck and popped back up through another one. It’s a little expensive but there’s nothing to trip on and looks good. Labor is probably comparable to running conduit. Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 5:20 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] wiring methods between arrays Hi Wrenches, I have another best practices questions: what are you doing to run your PV wire between arrays on a rooftops? This question has come up on this list in the past but I’m still on the hunt for a robust and faster lower cost method. We mostly install outdoor boxes on each sub array and then run EMT between these boxes. We use strain reliefs to enter the boxes and then either keep PV wire or transition to THWN-2 in the EMT depending on the layout. This method takes time and the outdoor boxes aren’t cheap. Alternatively, we can run open-ended EMT with ground bushings on the ends to bond the conduit. Since ground bushings are designed to be used in boxes we switch out the aluminum lug with a tin-coated outdoor rated lug and stainless hardware. This technically violates the listing but at least the materials hold up. The EMT needs to be carefully bent down at the ends so rain doesn’t enter. Lastly, we sometimes run our PV wires along strut or angle aluminum (this is the fastest method) which also needs to be bonded with a lay-in lug. Does anyone have other methods? Best, August Luminalt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Wed Aug 12 10:32:48 2015 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 07:32:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] wiring methods between arrays In-Reply-To: <62f6be592baac5311023955c884235b2@mail.gmail.com> References: <62f6be592baac5311023955c884235b2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <11DD935B-273F-4034-9D5E-AD687A2DD534@skyfireenergy.com> If you have attic access between the two roofs or separated arrays then install a Soladeck at each array and run the interconnecting wires thru the attic. If it is a DC circuit then Teck cable, or AC90 would be my choice of (armoured) cable for running through the attic. Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 > On Aug 11, 2015, at 3:19 PM, August Goers wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, > > I have another best practices questions: what are you doing to run your PV wire between arrays on a rooftops? This question has come up on this list in the past but I’m still on the hunt for a robust and faster lower cost method. We mostly install outdoor boxes on each sub array and then run EMT between these boxes. We use strain reliefs to enter the boxes and then either keep PV wire or transition to THWN-2 in the EMT depending on the layout. This method takes time and the outdoor boxes aren’t cheap. Alternatively, we can run open-ended EMT with ground bushings on the ends to bond the conduit. Since ground bushings are designed to be used in boxes we switch out the aluminum lug with a tin-coated outdoor rated lug and stainless hardware. This technically violates the listing but at least the materials hold up. The EMT needs to be carefully bent down at the ends so rain doesn’t enter. Lastly, we sometimes run our PV wires along strut or angle aluminum (this is the fastest method) which also needs to be bonded with a lay-in lug. > > Does anyone have other methods? > > Best, > > August > Luminalt > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Aug 12 18:03:20 2015 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 18:03:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries Message-ID: <20150812220329.4E3944F805C@homiemail-a48.g.dreamhost.com> Hello Wrenches, I have had a number of customers with Trojan L-16s have problems lately. In some cases, I know that the batteries weren't very well cared for, but in no case were the batteries totally discharged and let get cold or sit for a long time. It doesn't seem that the batteries should have died after a couple of years. I could see diminished output and a reduced life. One customer who supposedly knows someone with inside information claims that Trojan started cutting corners a few years ago to be more competitive on price. Has anyone else seen more problems with Trojan Batteries, or heard that the company is cutting corners? Thanks, Drake Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Aug 12 21:44:32 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 19:44:32 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries In-Reply-To: <20150812220329.4E3944F805C@homiemail-a48.g.dreamhost.com> References: <20150812220329.4E3944F805C@homiemail-a48.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <55CBF680.707@solarray.com> Oh I'm going to risk the wrath of Trojan and others, but I can confirm issues with the Trojan L16 having premature cell failures within a couple of years just as you reported. We use the T105 RE and have not had problems, but stay away from their L16 line. I otherwise do not know or understand the causes behind these failures, but I think this list proves to be at its most valuable when we can save each other and our customers needless suffering. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 8/12/2015 4:03 PM, Drake wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > I have had a number of customers with Trojan L-16s have problems > lately. In some cases, I know that the batteries weren't very well > cared for, but in no case were the batteries totally discharged and > let get cold or sit for a long time. It doesn't seem that the > batteries should have died after a couple of years. I could see > diminished output and a reduced life. > > One customer who supposedly knows someone with inside information > claims that Trojan started cutting corners a few years ago to be more > competitive on price. > > Has anyone else seen more problems with Trojan Batteries, or heard > that the company is cutting corners? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > /Athens Electric LLC > OH License 44810 > CO License 3773 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > 740-448-7328 > /http://athens-electric.com/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Wed Aug 12 22:22:50 2015 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 19:22:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries In-Reply-To: <55CBF680.707@solarray.com> References: <20150812220329.4E3944F805C@homiemail-a48.g.dreamhost.com> <55CBF680.707@solarray.com> Message-ID: <55CBFF7A.7090001@berkeleysolar.com> It does not bode well that Trojan is currently back ordered on at least some AGM batteries until October in order for them to address issues on their manufacturing line. On 8/12/2015 6:44 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > Oh I'm going to risk the wrath of Trojan and others, but I can confirm > issues with the Trojan L16 having premature cell failures within a > couple of years just as you reported. We use the T105 RE and have not > had problems, but stay away from their L16 line. I otherwise do not > know or understand the causes behind these failures, but I think this > list proves to be at its most valuable when we can save each other and > our customers needless suffering. > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > On 8/12/2015 4:03 PM, Drake wrote: >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> I have had a number of customers with Trojan L-16s have problems >> lately. In some cases, I know that the batteries weren't very well >> cared for, but in no case were the batteries totally discharged and >> let get cold or sit for a long time. It doesn't seem that the >> batteries should have died after a couple of years. I could see >> diminished output and a reduced life. >> >> One customer who supposedly knows someone with inside information >> claims that Trojan started cutting corners a few years ago to be more >> competitive on price. >> >> Has anyone else seen more problems with Trojan Batteries, or heard >> that the company is cutting corners? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> >> /Athens Electric LLC >> OH License 44810 >> CO License 3773 >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV >> 740-448-7328 >> /http://athens-electric.com/ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tom at wagonmaker.com Wed Aug 12 22:26:36 2015 From: tom at wagonmaker.com (Tom at wagonmaker) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 16:26:36 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries In-Reply-To: <20150812220329.4E3944F805C@homiemail-a48.g.dreamhost.com> References: <20150812220329.4E3944F805C@homiemail-a48.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <4A81FDF12F71427F873B51F497D7AA65@TomsHP> What size are the banks are are they series/paralleled across the terminals? That can cause one or more cells to fail, generally starting on the negative terminal. The set that failed on me was series/parallel across the terminals, old school, and the cell closest to the main negative overheated and shorted out, killing that string. It’s why I went to buss bars. Tom From: Drake Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2015 12:03 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries Hello Wrenches, I have had a number of customers with Trojan L-16s have problems lately. In some cases, I know that the batteries weren't very well cared for, but in no case were the batteries totally discharged and let get cold or sit for a long time. It doesn't seem that the batteries should have died after a couple of years. I could see diminished output and a reduced life. One customer who supposedly knows someone with inside information claims that Trojan started cutting corners a few years ago to be more competitive on price. Has anyone else seen more problems with Trojan Batteries, or heard that the company is cutting corners? Thanks, Drake Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Aug 12 23:15:00 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 20:15:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries In-Reply-To: <4A81FDF12F71427F873B51F497D7AA65@TomsHP> References: <20150812220329.4E3944F805C@homiemail-a48.g.dreamhost.com> <4A81FDF12F71427F873B51F497D7AA65@TomsHP> Message-ID: Tom: The system I am complaining about was eight L-16s in series. This should have been the best case scenario. William *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Tom at wagonmaker *Sent:* Wednesday, August 12, 2015 7:27 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries What size are the banks are are they series/paralleled across the terminals? That can cause one or more cells to fail, generally starting on the negative terminal. The set that failed on me was series/parallel across the terminals, old school, and the cell closest to the main negative overheated and shorted out, killing that string. It’s why I went to buss bars. Tom *From:* Drake *Sent:* Wednesday, August 12, 2015 12:03 PM *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries Hello Wrenches, I have had a number of customers with Trojan L-16s have problems lately. In some cases, I know that the batteries weren't very well cared for, but in no case were the batteries totally discharged and let get cold or sit for a long time. It doesn't seem that the batteries should have died after a couple of years. I could see diminished output and a reduced life. One customer who supposedly knows someone with inside information claims that Trojan started cutting corners a few years ago to be more competitive on price. Has anyone else seen more problems with Trojan Batteries, or heard that the company is cutting corners? Thanks, Drake *Athens Electric LLCOH License 44810CO License 3773NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328*http://athens-electric.com/ ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Aug 12 21:59:14 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 18:59:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries In-Reply-To: <55CBF680.707@solarray.com> References: <20150812220329.4E3944F805C@homiemail-a48.g.dreamhost.com> <55CBF680.707@solarray.com> Message-ID: <347499590e1f69aa84e97778f0ec9268@mail.gmail.com> Drake: Yep, big time problems here. I installed a group of 8 L-16s for a little old lady and her partner and I had multiple failures. I replaced two and then all 8. The new ones have been in two days and are supposedly working better. Trojan denied any compensation for the three trips at 4 hours round trip each to trouble shoot and replace. I will never use Trojan batteries again. William *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Ray Walters *Sent:* Wednesday, August 12, 2015 6:45 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries Oh I'm going to risk the wrath of Trojan and others, but I can confirm issues with the Trojan L16 having premature cell failures within a couple of years just as you reported. We use the T105 RE and have not had problems, but stay away from their L16 line. I otherwise do not know or understand the causes behind these failures, but I think this list proves to be at its most valuable when we can save each other and our customers needless suffering. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 8/12/2015 4:03 PM, Drake wrote: Hello Wrenches, I have had a number of customers with Trojan L-16s have problems lately. In some cases, I know that the batteries weren't very well cared for, but in no case were the batteries totally discharged and let get cold or sit for a long time. It doesn't seem that the batteries should have died after a couple of years. I could see diminished output and a reduced life. One customer who supposedly knows someone with inside information claims that Trojan started cutting corners a few years ago to be more competitive on price. Has anyone else seen more problems with Trojan Batteries, or heard that the company is cutting corners? Thanks, Drake *Athens Electric LLCOH License 44810CO License 3773NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328*http://athens-electric.com/ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 22:26:32 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 19:26:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries In-Reply-To: <55CBF680.707@solarray.com> References: <20150812220329.4E3944F805C@homiemail-a48.g.dreamhost.com> <55CBF680.707@solarray.com> Message-ID: <695F38C6-B821-4CCC-8F4E-C9FFFB4014D9@gmail.com> Hi Ray Would that be random dead cells? Jay Peltz power Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 12, 2015, at 6:44 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > > Oh I'm going to risk the wrath of Trojan and others, but I can confirm issues with the Trojan L16 having premature cell failures within a couple of years just as you reported. We use the T105 RE and have not had problems, but stay away from their L16 line. I otherwise do not know or understand the causes behind these failures, but I think this list proves to be at its most valuable when we can save each other and our customers needless suffering. > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > From ray at solarray.com Thu Aug 13 00:37:39 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 22:37:39 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries In-Reply-To: <695F38C6-B821-4CCC-8F4E-C9FFFB4014D9@gmail.com> References: <20150812220329.4E3944F805C@homiemail-a48.g.dreamhost.com> <55CBF680.707@solarray.com> <695F38C6-B821-4CCC-8F4E-C9FFFB4014D9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55CC1F13.7030609@solarray.com> Yes, it seems to be random. The idea that the failures are caused by the wiring or maintenance or anything on the user/ installer side is ludicris. I will also second William's comments that Trojan has been less than helpful, and if you're one month past the 2 year warranty: forget about it. This is truely a shame, since we all consider Trojan to be one of the top battery manufacturers. In the past Trojan was known for outlasting competing brands by many years. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 8/12/2015 8:26 PM, Jay wrote: > Hi Ray > > Would that be random dead cells? > > Jay > Peltz power > > > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Aug 12, 2015, at 6:44 PM, Ray Walters wrote: >> >> Oh I'm going to risk the wrath of Trojan and others, but I can confirm issues with the Trojan L16 having premature cell failures within a couple of years just as you reported. We use the T105 RE and have not had problems, but stay away from their L16 line. I otherwise do not know or understand the causes behind these failures, but I think this list proves to be at its most valuable when we can save each other and our customers needless suffering. >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From dave at independentpowerllc.com Thu Aug 13 07:32:39 2015 From: dave at independentpowerllc.com (Dave) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 07:32:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries In-Reply-To: <55CC1F13.7030609@solarray.com> References: <20150812220329.4E3944F805C@homiemail-a48.g.dreamhost.com> <55CBF680.707@solarray.com> <695F38C6-B821-4CCC-8F4E-C9FFFB4014D9@gmail.com> <55CC1F13.7030609@solarray.com> Message-ID: <01b801d0d5bb$c36c9c20$4a45d460$@com> Ray, Are these the base model Trojan L-16's or the L-16RE's? David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-371-8678 cell 802-888-4917 home -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2015 12:38 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries Yes, it seems to be random. The idea that the failures are caused by the wiring or maintenance or anything on the user/ installer side is ludicris. I will also second William's comments that Trojan has been less than helpful, and if you're one month past the 2 year warranty: forget about it. This is truely a shame, since we all consider Trojan to be one of the top battery manufacturers. In the past Trojan was known for outlasting competing brands by many years. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 8/12/2015 8:26 PM, Jay wrote: > Hi Ray > > Would that be random dead cells? > > Jay > Peltz power > > > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Aug 12, 2015, at 6:44 PM, Ray Walters wrote: >> >> Oh I'm going to risk the wrath of Trojan and others, but I can confirm issues with the Trojan L16 having premature cell failures within a couple of years just as you reported. We use the T105 RE and have not had problems, but stay away from their L16 line. I otherwise do not know or understand the causes behind these failures, but I think this list proves to be at its most valuable when we can save each other and our customers needless suffering. >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From Tom at thesolar.biz Thu Aug 13 09:27:24 2015 From: Tom at thesolar.biz (Tom Duffy) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 13:27:24 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries In-Reply-To: <55CBFF7A.7090001@berkeleysolar.com> References: <20150812220329.4E3944F805C@homiemail-a48.g.dreamhost.com> <55CBF680.707@solarray.com> <55CBFF7A.7090001@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: Drake et al I only design with series strings (no parallel) I use a fairly high bulk and absorb setting and I always calculate the absorb time. Further I don't pretend there is enough solar if there's not. I design for a full charge daily for 8 months a year from solar alone, thus insuring fully charged batteries at a minimum of every 10 days. I have been selling Trojan for years and with the new RE line we have never seen a failure that wasn't caused by abuse, either a poor bank design or bad or no charge settings or failure to maintain properly (this includes judicious equalization). Failing batteries after two years always indicates improper charging and probably too many parallel strings that are not being dealt with the way parallel strings require. I have been selling batteries for 47 years now and in that time I have only seen 5 honest to goodness (Manufacturing defect) batteries. Everything else was abuse. Kind regards Tom Duffy Senior Solar Design Engineer [Real-logo-X-195] E-Mail: tom at thesolar.biz Panama Office: 507-6126-1253 Direct Toll Free: 888-503-6772 International: 575-539-2111 SKYPE Address: thesolarbiz NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off... It should have been solar. Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mark Frye Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2015 9:23 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries It does not bode well that Trojan is currently back ordered on at least some AGM batteries until October in order for them to address issues on their manufacturing line. On 8/12/2015 6:44 PM, Ray Walters wrote: Oh I'm going to risk the wrath of Trojan and others, but I can confirm issues with the Trojan L16 having premature cell failures within a couple of years just as you reported. We use the T105 RE and have not had problems, but stay away from their L16 line. I otherwise do not know or understand the causes behind these failures, but I think this list proves to be at its most valuable when we can save each other and our customers needless suffering. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 8/12/2015 4:03 PM, Drake wrote: Hello Wrenches, I have had a number of customers with Trojan L-16s have problems lately. In some cases, I know that the batteries weren't very well cared for, but in no case were the batteries totally discharged and let get cold or sit for a long time. It doesn't seem that the batteries should have died after a couple of years. I could see diminished output and a reduced life. One customer who supposedly knows someone with inside information claims that Trojan started cutting corners a few years ago to be more competitive on price. Has anyone else seen more problems with Trojan Batteries, or heard that the company is cutting corners? Thanks, Drake Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 17363 bytes Desc: image003.png URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Aug 13 08:53:10 2015 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 08:53:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries In-Reply-To: <4A81FDF12F71427F873B51F497D7AA65@TomsHP> References: <20150812220329.4E3944F805C@homiemail-a48.g.dreamhost.com> <4A81FDF12F71427F873B51F497D7AA65@TomsHP> Message-ID: <20150813125318.92CBA8405C@homiemail-a93.g.dreamhost.com> Most failures have been in one string of 4 or 8 batteries. One failure was in two strings of 4. At 10:26 PM 8/12/2015, you wrote: >What size are the banks are are they >series/paralleled across the terminals? That >can cause one or more cells to fail, generally >starting on the negative terminal. The set that >failed on me was series/parallel across the >terminals, old school, and the cell closest to >the main negative overheated and shorted out, >killing that string. It’s why I went to buss bars. > >Tom > >From: Drake >Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2015 12:03 PM >To: >re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries > >Hello Wrenches, > >I have had a number of customers with Trojan >L-16s have problems lately. In some cases, I >know that the batteries weren't very well cared >for, but in no case were the batteries totally >discharged and let get cold or sit for a long >time. It doesn't seem that the batteries should >have died after a couple of years. I could see >diminished output and a reduced life. > >One customer who supposedly knows someone with >inside information claims that Trojan started >cutting corners a few years ago to be more competitive on price. > >Has anyone else seen more problems with Trojan >Batteries, or heard that the company is cutting corners? > >Thanks, > >Drake > >Athens Electric LLC >OH License 44810 >CO License 3773 >NABCEP Certified Solar PV >740-448-7328 >http://athens-electric.com/ > > >---------- >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 00:41:07 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 18:41:07 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries Message-ID: Wrenches This may should a little like a old wives tail but I  used to see the same cell and or  artery failure over the years. Its all about resistance so I started rotating the batteries, this improved acid levels, life span and capacity.  Just try it out before you laugh it off. One thought is the moving around is the key. Jerry Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Tom at wagonmaker
Date:08/12/2015 4:26 PM (GMT-10:00)
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries
What size are the banks are are they series/paralleled across the terminals? That can cause one or more cells to fail, generally starting on the negative terminal. The set that failed on me was series/parallel across the terminals, old school, and the cell closest to the main negative overheated and shorted out, killing that string. It’s why I went to buss bars. Tom From: Drake Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2015 12:03 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries Hello Wrenches, I have had a number of customers with Trojan L-16s have problems lately. In some cases, I know that the batteries weren't very well cared for, but in no case were the batteries totally discharged and let get cold or sit for a long time. It doesn't seem that the batteries should have died after a couple of years. I could see diminished output and a reduced life. One customer who supposedly knows someone with inside information claims that Trojan started cutting corners a few years ago to be more competitive on price. Has anyone else seen more problems with Trojan Batteries, or heard that the company is cutting corners? Thanks, Drake Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dyoung at dovetailsolar.com Thu Aug 13 10:30:45 2015 From: dyoung at dovetailsolar.com (Daniel Young) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 10:30:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Serviceable equipment on a roof Message-ID: <00a801d0d5d4$a4170720$ec451560$@com> We have a job going in on 1 ¼”:12 standing seam commercial roof. When we tried to walk the drawings through the permit department, we were told that we had to keep the solar modules 10’ from the roof edge because they are serviceable equipment. We’ve run into this before, and have been successful arguing that the solar modules are not installed as serviceable equipment (they require service intervals closer to the roof membrane on flat roofs [little to no attention for 20+yrs], rather than the roof top AC unit as an example). We install all pass-thru boxes or other similar enclosures at least 10’ from the roof edge as well to make it clear the most likely parts to be inspected/serviced would be safe. We also pointed out the International Fire codes rules on keeping the array 4’ from the edge of the roof (smaller commercial building, so we are in the 4’ setback category, rather than the 6’ setback). To all this he said “you can’t tell me that no one will ever service those solar modules. If someone falls off the roof and dies, I wanna be able to say I did my job ” So, I think my only option is to point to a well backed definition for serviceable equipment to show him that the solar modules do not qualify. Does anyone have any good source to help with this issue? Or would the majority of you say that 10’ is the right call anyway? I know I might just be up against a hard ^%$# inspector and have to just go with it, but I also do not want to set precedent within my states default commercial code agency if I don’t have to. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Thu Aug 13 10:18:53 2015 From: Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com (Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 10:18:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries In-Reply-To: <20150813125318.92CBA8405C@homiemail-a93.g.dreamhost.com> References: <20150812220329.4E3944F805C@homiemail-a48.g.dreamhost.com> <4A81FDF12F71427F873B51F497D7AA65@TomsHP> <20150813125318.92CBA8405C@homiemail-a93.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Hi: It occurred to me that with all the experience on the Wrenches community, we have a unique opportunity to get perspective on one aspect of battery bank natural aging and failure. Which cells typically fail first, A. The cells on the end of the strings B. The cells in the middle of the strings C. Random cells in any position. If there is a pattern to failures among a large group of systems, then that will support cell rotation. If not, then not. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Drake To: RE-wrenches , Date: 08/13/2015 07:03 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries Sent by: "RE-wrenches" Most failures have been in one string of 4 or 8 batteries. One failure was in two strings of 4. At 10:26 PM 8/12/2015, you wrote: What size are the banks are are they series/paralleled across the terminals? That can cause one or more cells to fail, generally starting on the negative terminal. The set that failed on me was series/parallel across the terminals, old school, and the cell closest to the main negative overheated and shorted out, killing that string. It’s why I went to buss bars. Tom From: Drake Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2015 12:03 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries Hello Wrenches, I have had a number of customers with Trojan L-16s have problems lately. In some cases, I know that the batteries weren't very well cared for, but in no case were the batteries totally discharged and let get cold or sit for a long time. It doesn't seem that the batteries should have died after a couple of years. I could see diminished output and a reduced life. One customer who supposedly knows someone with inside information claims that Trojan started cutting corners a few years ago to be more competitive on price. Has anyone else seen more problems with Trojan Batteries, or heard that the company is cutting corners? Thanks, Drake Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Aug 13 10:37:38 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (william at millersolar.com) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 07:37:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Serviceable equipment on a roof In-Reply-To: <00a801d0d5d4$a4170720$ec451560$@com> References: <00a801d0d5d4$a4170720$ec451560$@com> Message-ID: Daniel: Could you install permanent fall protection anchors strategically located? Service personnel could anchor in wherever needed. S-5 style fall anchors are made. Wm > On Aug 13, 2015, at 7:30 AM, Daniel Young wrote: > > We have a job going in on 1 ¼”:12 standing seam commercial roof. When we tried to walk the drawings through the permit department, we were told that we had to keep the solar modules 10’ from the roof edge because they are serviceable equipment. > > We’ve run into this before, and have been successful arguing that the solar modules are not installed as serviceable equipment (they require service intervals closer to the roof membrane on flat roofs [little to no attention for 20+yrs], rather than the roof top AC unit as an example). We install all pass-thru boxes or other similar enclosures at least 10’ from the roof edge as well to make it clear the most likely parts to be inspected/serviced would be safe. We also pointed out the International Fire codes rules on keeping the array 4’ from the edge of the roof (smaller commercial building, so we are in the 4’ setback category, rather than the 6’ setback). To all this he said “you can’t tell me that no one will ever service those solar modules. If someone falls off the roof and dies, I wanna be able to say I did my job…” > > So, I think my only option is to point to a well backed definition for serviceable equipment to show him that the solar modules do not qualify. Does anyone have any good source to help with this issue? Or would the majority of you say that 10’ is the right call anyway? > > I know I might just be up against a hard ^%$# inspector and have to just go with it, but I also do not want to set precedent within my states default commercial code agency if I don’t have to. > > With Regards, > > Daniel Young, > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dyoung at dovetailsolar.com Thu Aug 13 10:51:07 2015 From: dyoung at dovetailsolar.com (Daniel Young) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 10:51:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Serviceable equipment on a roof In-Reply-To: References: <00a801d0d5d4$a4170720$ec451560$@com> Message-ID: <00e401d0d5d7$7cc64d40$7652e7c0$@com> We actually planned on bringing that to him next time as well, he didn’t care that we said we would be tied off if any work were needed in the future, but the words “permanently installed” might change his tune. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of william at millersolar.com Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2015 10:38 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Serviceable equipment on a roof Daniel: Could you install permanent fall protection anchors strategically located? Service personnel could anchor in wherever needed. S-5 style fall anchors are made. Wm On Aug 13, 2015, at 7:30 AM, Daniel Young wrote: We have a job going in on 1 ¼”:12 standing seam commercial roof. When we tried to walk the drawings through the permit department, we were told that we had to keep the solar modules 10’ from the roof edge because they are serviceable equipment. We’ve run into this before, and have been successful arguing that the solar modules are not installed as serviceable equipment (they require service intervals closer to the roof membrane on flat roofs [little to no attention for 20+yrs], rather than the roof top AC unit as an example). We install all pass-thru boxes or other similar enclosures at least 10’ from the roof edge as well to make it clear the most likely parts to be inspected/serviced would be safe. We also pointed out the International Fire codes rules on keeping the array 4’ from the edge of the roof (smaller commercial building, so we are in the 4’ setback category, rather than the 6’ setback). To all this he said “you can’t tell me that no one will ever service those solar modules. If someone falls off the roof and dies, I wanna be able to say I did my job…” So, I think my only option is to point to a well backed definition for serviceable equipment to show him that the solar modules do not qualify. Does anyone have any good source to help with this issue? Or would the majority of you say that 10’ is the right call anyway? I know I might just be up against a hard ^%$# inspector and have to just go with it, but I also do not want to set precedent within my states default commercial code agency if I don’t have to. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6086 / Virus Database: 4392/10423 - Release Date: 08/12/15 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at solar-energy-solutions.com Thu Aug 13 10:59:59 2015 From: matt at solar-energy-solutions.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 10:59:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Serviceable equipment on a roof In-Reply-To: <00e401d0d5d7$7cc64d40$7652e7c0$@com> References: <00a801d0d5d4$a4170720$ec451560$@com> <00e401d0d5d7$7cc64d40$7652e7c0$@com> Message-ID: Perhaps try asking your panel manufacturer for a letter stating no maintenance is expected or can be performed on the modules. Matt Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions LLC (877) 312-7456 matt at solar-energy-solutions.com On Thu, August 13, 2015 10:51 am, Daniel Young wrote: > We actually planned on bringing that to him next time as well, he > didn’t care that we said we would be tied off if any work were needed > in the future, but the words “permanently installed” might change his > tune. > > > > With Regards, > > > > > Daniel Young, > > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of william at millersolar.com > Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2015 10:38 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Serviceable equipment on a roof > > > > > Daniel: > > > > > Could you install permanent fall protection anchors strategically > located? Service personnel could anchor in wherever needed. S-5 style > fall anchors are made. > > > > Wm > > > > > > On Aug 13, 2015, at 7:30 AM, Daniel Young > wrote: > > > We have a job going in on 1 ¼”:12 standing seam commercial roof. When > we tried to walk the drawings through the permit department, we were told > that we had to keep the solar modules 10’ from the roof edge because > they are serviceable equipment. > > > > We’ve run into this before, and have been successful arguing that the > solar modules are not installed as serviceable equipment (they require > service intervals closer to the roof membrane on flat roofs [little to no > attention for 20+yrs], rather than the roof top AC unit as an example). > We install all pass-thru boxes or other similar enclosures at least 10’ > from the roof edge as well to make it clear the most likely parts to be > inspected/serviced would be safe. We also pointed out the International > Fire codes rules on keeping the array 4’ from the edge of the roof > (smaller commercial building, so we are in the 4’ setback category, > rather than the 6’ setback). To all this he said “you can’t tell me > that no one will ever service those solar modules. If someone falls off > the roof and dies, I wanna be able to say I did my job…” > > > > So, I think my only option is to point to a well backed definition for > serviceable equipment to show him that the solar modules do not qualify. > Does anyone have any good source to help with this issue? Or would the > majority of you say that 10’ is the right call anyway? > > > > I know I might just be up against a hard ^%$# inspector and have to just > go with it, but I also do not want to set precedent within my states > default commercial code agency if I don’t have to. > > > > With Regards, > > > > > Daniel Young, > > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht > ml > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _____ > > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2015.0.6086 / Virus Database: 4392/10423 - Release Date: 08/12/15 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht > ml > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From ray at solarray.com Thu Aug 13 11:54:47 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 09:54:47 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries In-Reply-To: <01b801d0d5bb$c36c9c20$4a45d460$@com> References: <20150812220329.4E3944F805C@homiemail-a48.g.dreamhost.com> <55CBF680.707@solarray.com> <695F38C6-B821-4CCC-8F4E-C9FFFB4014D9@gmail.com> <55CC1F13.7030609@solarray.com> <01b801d0d5bb$c36c9c20$4a45d460$@com> Message-ID: <55CCBDC7.8080705@solarray.com> These were the REs R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 8/13/2015 5:32 AM, Dave wrote: > Ray, > > Are these the base model Trojan L-16's or the L-16RE's? > > David Palumbo > Independent Power LLC > 462 Solar Way Drive > Hyde Park, VT 05655 > 802-371-8678 cell > 802-888-4917 home > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Ray Walters > Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2015 12:38 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries > > Yes, it seems to be random. The idea that the failures are caused by the > wiring or maintenance or anything on the user/ installer side is ludicris. > I will also second William's comments that Trojan has been less than > helpful, and if you're one month past the 2 year warranty: forget about it. > This is truely a shame, since we all consider Trojan to be one of the top > battery manufacturers. In the past Trojan was known for outlasting > competing brands by many years. > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > On 8/12/2015 8:26 PM, Jay wrote: >> Hi Ray >> >> Would that be random dead cells? >> >> Jay >> Peltz power >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Aug 12, 2015, at 6:44 PM, Ray Walters wrote: >>> >>> Oh I'm going to risk the wrath of Trojan and others, but I can confirm > issues with the Trojan L16 having premature cell failures within a couple of > years just as you reported. We use the T105 RE and have not had problems, > but stay away from their L16 line. I otherwise do not know or understand > the causes behind these failures, but I think this list proves to be at its > most valuable when we can save each other and our customers needless > suffering. >>> R.Ray Walters >>> CTO, Solarray, Inc >>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >>> Licensed Master Electrician >>> Solar Design Engineer >>> 303 505-8760 >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist >> .html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From garrison at solarserviceinc.com Thu Aug 13 12:26:21 2015 From: garrison at solarserviceinc.com (Garrison Riegel) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 11:26:21 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Serviceable equipment on a roof In-Reply-To: <00a801d0d5d4$a4170720$ec451560$@com> References: <00a801d0d5d4$a4170720$ec451560$@com> Message-ID: <009401d0d5e4$caa030a0$5fe091e0$@solarserviceinc.com> It sounds like he is trying to enforce IBC 1013.5, which requires guarding of “mechanical equipment” which is installed within 10’ of a roof edge. In a similar situation I have successfully argued that PV modules have no moving parts and are “electrical equipment”, therefore this requirement does not apply. Permanent anchors also sound like a good, although expensive solution. Garrison Garrison Riegel PV Operations Manager | Solar Service Inc [p] 847-677-0950 | garrison at solarserviceinc.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Young Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2015 9:31 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] Serviceable equipment on a roof We have a job going in on 1 ¼”:12 standing seam commercial roof. When we tried to walk the drawings through the permit department, we were told that we had to keep the solar modules 10’ from the roof edge because they are serviceable equipment. We’ve run into this before, and have been successful arguing that the solar modules are not installed as serviceable equipment (they require service intervals closer to the roof membrane on flat roofs [little to no attention for 20+yrs], rather than the roof top AC unit as an example). We install all pass-thru boxes or other similar enclosures at least 10’ from the roof edge as well to make it clear the most likely parts to be inspected/serviced would be safe. We also pointed out the International Fire codes rules on keeping the array 4’ from the edge of the roof (smaller commercial building, so we are in the 4’ setback category, rather than the 6’ setback). To all this he said “you can’t tell me that no one will ever service those solar modules. If someone falls off the roof and dies, I wanna be able to say I did my job ” So, I think my only option is to point to a well backed definition for serviceable equipment to show him that the solar modules do not qualify. Does anyone have any good source to help with this issue? Or would the majority of you say that 10’ is the right call anyway? I know I might just be up against a hard ^%$# inspector and have to just go with it, but I also do not want to set precedent within my states default commercial code agency if I don’t have to. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Aug 13 11:25:51 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 11:25:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Serviceable equipment on a roof In-Reply-To: <00a801d0d5d4$a4170720$ec451560$@com> References: <00a801d0d5d4$a4170720$ec451560$@com> Message-ID: We went through something similar with regards to permanent ladder access for PV panels on a low slope commercial roof (1:12). The argument that was successful in our favor is that PV panels are not "mechanical equipment." Find out what code section they are citing. I bet it has to do with mechanical. If that is the case, argue that PV panels are solid state electrical equipment, and the section does not apply. If you need some evidence, the International Mechanical Code Chapter 14 applies to solar thermal systems only: 1401.1 Scope. This chapter shall govern the design, construction, installation, alteration and repair of systems, equipment and appliances intended to utilize solar energy for space heating or cooling, domestic hot water heating, swimming pool heating or process heating. Jason Szumlanski On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at 10:30 AM, Daniel Young wrote: > We have a job going in on 1 ¼”:12 standing seam commercial roof. When we > tried to walk the drawings through the permit department, we were told that > we had to keep the solar modules 10’ from the roof edge because they are > serviceable equipment. > > > > We’ve run into this before, and have been successful arguing that the > solar modules are not installed as serviceable equipment (they require > service intervals closer to the roof membrane on flat roofs [little to no > attention for 20+yrs], rather than the roof top AC unit as an example). We > install all pass-thru boxes or other similar enclosures at least 10’ from > the roof edge as well to make it clear the most likely parts to be > inspected/serviced would be safe. We also pointed out the International > Fire codes rules on keeping the array 4’ from the edge of the roof (smaller > commercial building, so we are in the 4’ setback category, rather than the > 6’ setback). To all this he said “you can’t tell me that no one will ever > service those solar modules. If someone falls off the roof and dies, I > wanna be able to say I did my job…” > > > > So, I think my only option is to point to a well backed definition for > serviceable equipment to show him that the solar modules do not qualify. > Does anyone have any good source to help with this issue? Or would the > majority of you say that 10’ is the right call anyway? > > > > I know I might just be up against a hard ^%$# inspector and have to just > go with it, but I also do not want to set precedent within my states > default commercial code agency if I don’t have to. > > > > With Regards, > > > > Daniel Young, > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Thu Aug 13 11:46:00 2015 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (William Dorsett) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 10:46:00 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <20150812220329.4E3944F805C@homiemail-a48.g.dreamhost.com> <4A81FDF12F71427F873B51F497D7AA65@TomsHP> <20150813125318.92CBA8405C@homiemail-a93.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <006101d0d5df$27ce28f0$776a7ad0$@sbcglobal.net> Michael, does HP or SolarPro have a format for compiling the type of data that Jarmo is asking? …a Doodles.com survey type of form that could be accessed through the wrenches archives or similar? I’ve thought for a long time that different comparisons over time for: i.e. customer service, module or inverter failure rates or changes in tech support would be helpful to the whole renewable energy community. Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2015 9:19 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries Hi: It occurred to me that with all the experience on the Wrenches community, we have a unique opportunity to get perspective on one aspect of battery bank natural aging and failure. Which cells typically fail first, A. The cells on the end of the strings B. The cells in the middle of the strings C. Random cells in any position. If there is a pattern to failures among a large group of systems, then that will support cell rotation. If not, then not. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Drake To: RE-wrenches , Date: 08/13/2015 07:03 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries Sent by: "RE-wrenches" _____ Most failures have been in one string of 4 or 8 batteries. One failure was in two strings of 4. At 10:26 PM 8/12/2015, you wrote: What size are the banks are are they series/paralleled across the terminals? That can cause one or more cells to fail, generally starting on the negative terminal. The set that failed on me was series/parallel across the terminals, old school, and the cell closest to the main negative overheated and shorted out, killing that string. It’s why I went to buss bars. Tom From: Drake Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2015 12:03 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries Hello Wrenches, I have had a number of customers with Trojan L-16s have problems lately. In some cases, I know that the batteries weren't very well cared for, but in no case were the batteries totally discharged and let get cold or sit for a long time. It doesn't seem that the batteries should have died after a couple of years. I could see diminished output and a reduced life. One customer who supposedly knows someone with inside information claims that Trojan started cutting corners a few years ago to be more competitive on price. Has anyone else seen more problems with Trojan Batteries, or heard that the company is cutting corners? Thanks, Drake Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ _____ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image006.gif Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Thu Aug 13 11:16:31 2015 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (William Dorsett) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 10:16:31 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <20150812220329.4E3944F805C@homiemail-a48.g.dreamhost.com> <4A81FDF12F71427F873B51F497D7AA65@TomsHP> <20150813125318.92CBA8405C@homiemail-a93.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <005501d0d5db$0999c190$1ccd44b0$@sbcglobal.net> Jarmo, the accumulated experience of a big group of professionals is one of the great functions of this list. This discussion is yet another of a recurring thread that documents the fuzziness of current and past battery technology and management. There are a huge number of variables, but your suggestion of documenting the position of bad cells is a good start. Hopefully the new series of smart batteries will offer better management. Thanks to all. Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2015 9:19 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries Hi: It occurred to me that with all the experience on the Wrenches community, we have a unique opportunity to get perspective on one aspect of battery bank natural aging and failure. Which cells typically fail first, A. The cells on the end of the strings B. The cells in the middle of the strings C. Random cells in any position. If there is a pattern to failures among a large group of systems, then that will support cell rotation. If not, then not. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Drake To: RE-wrenches , Date: 08/13/2015 07:03 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries Sent by: "RE-wrenches" _____ Most failures have been in one string of 4 or 8 batteries. One failure was in two strings of 4. At 10:26 PM 8/12/2015, you wrote: What size are the banks are are they series/paralleled across the terminals? That can cause one or more cells to fail, generally starting on the negative terminal. The set that failed on me was series/parallel across the terminals, old school, and the cell closest to the main negative overheated and shorted out, killing that string. It’s why I went to buss bars. Tom From: Drake Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2015 12:03 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries Hello Wrenches, I have had a number of customers with Trojan L-16s have problems lately. In some cases, I know that the batteries weren't very well cared for, but in no case were the batteries totally discharged and let get cold or sit for a long time. It doesn't seem that the batteries should have died after a couple of years. I could see diminished output and a reduced life. One customer who supposedly knows someone with inside information claims that Trojan started cutting corners a few years ago to be more competitive on price. Has anyone else seen more problems with Trojan Batteries, or heard that the company is cutting corners? Thanks, Drake Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ _____ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image006.gif Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 15:58:42 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 09:58:42 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Serviceable equipment on a roof In-Reply-To: <00a801d0d5d4$a4170720$ec451560$@com> References: <00a801d0d5d4$a4170720$ec451560$@com> Message-ID: Wrenches, The only requirements which are in force able is the fire code, any distance from the edge does not matter as OSHA requires anyone less then 6 feet to be tied off anyway so falling is out of the question. Is there only one person in that office or would a second walk in change the possible outcome. On Aug 13, 2015 4:30 AM, "Daniel Young" wrote: > We have a job going in on 1 ¼”:12 standing seam commercial roof. When we > tried to walk the drawings through the permit department, we were told that > we had to keep the solar modules 10’ from the roof edge because they are > serviceable equipment. > > > > We’ve run into this before, and have been successful arguing that the > solar modules are not installed as serviceable equipment (they require > service intervals closer to the roof membrane on flat roofs [little to no > attention for 20+yrs], rather than the roof top AC unit as an example). We > install all pass-thru boxes or other similar enclosures at least 10’ from > the roof edge as well to make it clear the most likely parts to be > inspected/serviced would be safe. We also pointed out the International > Fire codes rules on keeping the array 4’ from the edge of the roof (smaller > commercial building, so we are in the 4’ setback category, rather than the > 6’ setback). To all this he said “you can’t tell me that no one will ever > service those solar modules. If someone falls off the roof and dies, I > wanna be able to say I did my job…” > > > > So, I think my only option is to point to a well backed definition for > serviceable equipment to show him that the solar modules do not qualify. > Does anyone have any good source to help with this issue? Or would the > majority of you say that 10’ is the right call anyway? > > > > I know I might just be up against a hard ^%$# inspector and have to just > go with it, but I also do not want to set precedent within my states > default commercial code agency if I don’t have to. > > > > With Regards, > > > > Daniel Young, > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 17:04:48 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 14:04:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Standing metal seam clamps In-Reply-To: References: <00a801d0d5d4$a4170720$ec451560$@com> Message-ID: <29A527C1-11A9-4F59-9ABB-FE3639E8893C@gmail.com> Hi all Any options for standing metal seam clamps besides S-5! Snap n rack ? Thanks in advance Jay Peltz power From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Aug 13 17:21:22 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 17:21:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Standing metal seam clamps In-Reply-To: <29A527C1-11A9-4F59-9ABB-FE3639E8893C@gmail.com> References: <00a801d0d5d4$a4170720$ec451560$@com> <29A527C1-11A9-4F59-9ABB-FE3639E8893C@gmail.com> Message-ID: No first-hand experience with it, but there is one from Eco-Fasten: http://www.ecofastensolar.com/store/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory=4 On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at 5:04 PM, Jay wrote: > Hi all > > Any options for standing metal seam clamps besides > S-5! > Snap n rack > ? > > Thanks in advance > Jay > Peltz power -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarworks at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 17:26:23 2015 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal Khalsa) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 14:26:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Standing metal seam clamps In-Reply-To: References: <00a801d0d5d4$a4170720$ec451560$@com> <29A527C1-11A9-4F59-9ABB-FE3639E8893C@gmail.com> Message-ID: We have started using the ACE 2 clamps and so far they are our favorite. On Aug 13, 2015 2:23 PM, "Jason Szumlanski" < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > No first-hand experience with it, but there is one from Eco-Fasten: > > http://www.ecofastensolar.com/store/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory=4 > > > > On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at 5:04 PM, Jay wrote: > >> Hi all >> >> Any options for standing metal seam clamps besides >> S-5! >> Snap n rack >> ? >> >> Thanks in advance >> Jay >> Peltz power > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Thu Aug 13 17:29:15 2015 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 14:29:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Name that rail... Message-ID: <203F796E-B467-48DA-8248-AF732A281207@skyfireenergy.com> Can anyone identify this rail type? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 576181 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 From mrpackard88 at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 18:09:53 2015 From: mrpackard88 at gmail.com (Michael Packard) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 15:09:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Name that rail... In-Reply-To: <203F796E-B467-48DA-8248-AF732A281207@skyfireenergy.com> References: <203F796E-B467-48DA-8248-AF732A281207@skyfireenergy.com> Message-ID: <8F48BE22-DDD7-4D58-8876-21E63E434B99@gmail.com> Looks Chinese to me! But i can not confirm > On Aug 13, 2015, at 2:29 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > > Can anyone identify this rail type? > > > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy Inc. > 780-906-7807 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From solar1online at charter.net Fri Aug 14 03:16:28 2015 From: solar1online at charter.net (Bill Loesch) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 02:16:28 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Standing metal seam clamps In-Reply-To: <29A527C1-11A9-4F59-9ABB-FE3639E8893C@gmail.com> References: <00a801d0d5d4$a4170720$ec451560$@com> <29A527C1-11A9-4F59-9ABB-FE3639E8893C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55CD95CC.7060600@charter.net> Hi Jay, S-5 makes a big point about how their round nose set screws are better than the "cup" nosed setscrews of their competitor(s). I failed to see any supporting material for that claim. Have you seen the promo video where the handlebar mustachioed founder/owner gives a compelling build a better mousetrap speech? Problems with S-5 that you are willing to share? Joy, -- Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 On 8/13/2015 4:04 PM, Jay wrote: > Hi all > > Any options for standing metal seam clamps besides > S-5! > Snap n rack > ? > > Thanks in advance > Jay > Peltz power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 14 00:00:17 2015 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (William Dorsett) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 23:00:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Name that rail... In-Reply-To: <203F796E-B467-48DA-8248-AF732A281207@skyfireenergy.com> References: <203F796E-B467-48DA-8248-AF732A281207@skyfireenergy.com> Message-ID: <011701d0d645$bbb51a40$331f4ec0$@sbcglobal.net> Benn, do you have a picture of any of the fittings that work with it? Bill Dorsett -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Benn Kilburn Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2015 4:29 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Name that rail... Can anyone identify this rail type? From benn at skyfireenergy.com Fri Aug 14 04:54:23 2015 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 01:54:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Name that rail... In-Reply-To: <011701d0d645$bbb51a40$331f4ec0$@sbcglobal.net> References: <203F796E-B467-48DA-8248-AF732A281207@skyfireenergy.com> <011701d0d645$bbb51a40$331f4ec0$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <9AABB812-07EB-4496-A37B-AE1BABE9C977@skyfireenergy.com> Nope. I was trying to imagine what they would look like. It doesn't appear to be a "typical" "channel nut" design. Maybe an inverted t-head bolt type? Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 > On Aug 13, 2015, at 9:00 PM, "William Dorsett" wrote: > > Benn, do you have a picture of any of the fittings that work with it? > > Bill Dorsett > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Benn Kilburn > Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2015 4:29 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Name that rail... > > Can anyone identify this rail type? > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From kirk at vtsolar.com Fri Aug 14 11:32:48 2015 From: kirk at vtsolar.com (Kirk) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 11:32:48 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Standing metal seam clamps In-Reply-To: <55CD95CC.7060600@charter.net> References: <00a801d0d5d4$a4170720$ec451560$@com> <29A527C1-11A9-4F59-9ABB-FE3639E8893C@gmail.com> <55CD95CC.7060600@charter.net> Message-ID: Jay, Ecofasten Solar makes a S5 equivalent. Has -2- 3/8 bolt holes in the top instead of the S5's 1. It helps with versatility. Its also a little cheaper. Kirk Herander VSE Sent from a job site somewhere > On Aug 14, 2015, at 3:16 AM, Bill Loesch wrote: > > > Hi Jay, > > S-5 makes a big point about how their round nose set screws are better than the "cup" nosed setscrews of their competitor(s). I failed to see any supporting material for that claim. > > Have you seen the promo video where the handlebar mustachioed founder/owner gives a compelling build a better mousetrap speech? > > Problems with S-5 that you are willing to share? > > Joy, > > -- > Bill Loesch > Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar > 314 631 1094 > > > >> On 8/13/2015 4:04 PM, Jay wrote: >> Hi all >> >> Any options for standing metal seam clamps besides >> S-5! >> Snap n rack >> ? >> >> Thanks in advance >> Jay >> Peltz power >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From lawrencesteven at gmail.com Fri Aug 14 11:36:29 2015 From: lawrencesteven at gmail.com (Steven Lawrence) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 11:36:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Serviceable equipment on a roof Message-ID: Hi Dan, I don't know which state you're in, but the state of NJ put out a notice stating that solar panels do not require servicing. This came from the top electrical inspector back in 2010. The link can be found at http://www.state.nj.us/dca/divisions/codes/publications/pdf_ccc/ccc_spring2010.pdf It's located on page 11. Hopefully this might sway your inspector. Good luck! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri Aug 14 09:38:27 2015 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 09:38:27 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Standing metal seam clamps In-Reply-To: References: <00a801d0d5d4$a4170720$ec451560$@com> <29A527C1-11A9-4F59-9ABB-FE3639E8893C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20150814133839.ED307A806E@homiemail-a81.g.dreamhost.com> Why are those better? I'm designing a system for a standing seam roof built by an Amish crew. They likely used a Zimmerman machine to make the roof on site. The seams are triangular shaped measuring 1 1/2" high and 11/16" wide at the base. It looks like we will need to pinch the seams with duckbill vice grips to get the clamp on. Is there a better solution? [] Thanks, Drake At 05:26 PM 8/13/2015, you wrote: >We have started using the ACE 2 clamps and so far they are our favorite.  >On Aug 13, 2015 2:23 PM, "Jason Szumlanski" ><jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> >wrote: >No first-hand experience with it, but there is one from Eco-Fasten: > >http://www.ecofastensolar.com/store/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory=4 > > > >On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at 5:04 PM, Jay ><jay.peltz at gmail.com> wrote: >Hi all > >Any options for standing metal seam clamps besides >S-5! >Snap n rack >? > >Thanks in advance >Jay >Peltz power > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 38aac8d3.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 73581 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Aug 14 10:32:16 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 07:32:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Standing metal seam clamps In-Reply-To: <55CD95CC.7060600@charter.net> References: <00a801d0d5d4$a4170720$ec451560$@com> <29A527C1-11A9-4F59-9ABB-FE3639E8893C@gmail.com> <55CD95CC.7060600@charter.net> Message-ID: <1FC1CBE2-3F6F-40CF-AB38-E8C20BCB6FA0@gmail.com> Hi Bill Thanks, that was just the question I was going to ask " why do you like your clamp vs the others. " I could see the cup shape doing a better job of biting into the metal, and I can also,see that possibly causing warranty or corrosion issues. Thats why I asked Thx Jay > On Aug 14, 2015, at 12:16 AM, Bill Loesch wrote: > > > Hi Jay, > > S-5 makes a big point about how their round nose set screws are better than the "cup" nosed setscrews of their competitor(s). I failed to see any supporting material for that claim. > > Have you seen the promo video where the handlebar mustachioed founder/owner gives a compelling build a better mousetrap speech? > > Problems with S-5 that you are willing to share? > > Joy, > > -- > Bill Loesch > Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar > 314 631 1094 > > > >> On 8/13/2015 4:04 PM, Jay wrote: >> Hi all >> >> Any options for standing metal seam clamps besides >> S-5! >> Snap n rack >> ? >> >> Thanks in advance >> Jay >> Peltz power >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From frenergy at psln.com Fri Aug 14 10:41:20 2015 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 07:41:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] wiring methods between arrays References: <62f6be592baac5311023955c884235b2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4716124CB32240EA996372D2228EDE76@D8XG8YH1> August, I have made many a times a 1" or 3/4" steel threaded coupling welded to a small pc of 3/16" X 1" X 3" long steel (coming off at a right angle). The pc welded to the coupling has a 5/16" hole in it to be able to use the DPW turn-bolt to secure it their rack just inboard of the edge of the array. In one end of the coupling I install a strain relief, the other a carflex fitting or EMT male adapter (TA)....I think you get the rest. Its solid because the ends of the conduit are bolted to the rack and of course you could secure midway if necessary, no roof penetrations, usually. Of course this only works for ~4, 10 Ga. 'PV wire' size wires, but its one option. Could include a pic but currently on vacation. Bill Feather River Solar Electric ----- Original Message ----- From: August Goers To: RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 3:19 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] wiring methods between arrays Hi Wrenches, I have another best practices questions: what are you doing to run your PV wire between arrays on a rooftops? This question has come up on this list in the past but I’m still on the hunt for a robust and faster lower cost method. We mostly install outdoor boxes on each sub array and then run EMT between these boxes. We use strain reliefs to enter the boxes and then either keep PV wire or transition to THWN-2 in the EMT depending on the layout. This method takes time and the outdoor boxes aren’t cheap. Alternatively, we can run open-ended EMT with ground bushings on the ends to bond the conduit. Since ground bushings are designed to be used in boxes we switch out the aluminum lug with a tin-coated outdoor rated lug and stainless hardware. This technically violates the listing but at least the materials hold up. The EMT needs to be carefully bent down at the ends so rain doesn’t enter. Lastly, we sometimes run our PV wires along strut or angle aluminum (this is the fastest method) which also needs to be bonded with a lay-in lug. Does anyone have other methods? Best, August Luminalt ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Fri Aug 14 12:20:41 2015 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 09:20:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Standing metal seam clamps In-Reply-To: <20150814133839.ED307A806E@homiemail-a81.g.dreamhost.com> References: <00a801d0d5d4$a4170720$ec451560$@com> <29A527C1-11A9-4F59-9ABB-FE3639E8893C@gmail.com> <20150814133839.ED307A806E@homiemail-a81.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <1ac8551aa58a4fde3ddab4d2c7b2f9d0@mail.gmail.com> Drake, For reference, I’d say that we need to pinch/crimp seams on 80% of our standing seam installs in order to get the S5 clamp to fit. As long as some cardboard is used to avoid scratching the galvanized-like coating (Galvalume, for example) we haven’t had any corrosion issues with S5 clamps. I’ve gone back to inspect systems that were installed several years ago in our Bay Area semi-coastal environment and there may be a little bit of rust, but nothing serious. The stainless set screw almost certainly pierces the metal coating but the rust doesn’t get far. This could be a completely different story in an extreme coastal environment like parts of Florida, Hawaii, etc – but then again, I don’t even know if standing seam metal roofs are used in those areas. -August PS: I like the idea of duckbill vise grips! We’ve typically used medium-large channel locks to crimp the seams but I think the duckbill clamp is potentially more elegant. *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Drake *Sent:* Friday, August 14, 2015 6:38 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Standing metal seam clamps Why are those better? I'm designing a system for a standing seam roof built by an Amish crew. They likely used a Zimmerman machine to make the roof on site. The seams are triangular shaped measuring 1 1/2" high and 11/16" wide at the base. It looks like we will need to pinch the seams with duckbill vice grips to get the clamp on. Is there a better solution? [image: []] Thanks, Drake At 05:26 PM 8/13/2015, you wrote: We have started using the ACE 2 clamps and so far they are our favorite.  On Aug 13, 2015 2:23 PM, "Jason Szumlanski" < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: No first-hand experience with it, but there is one from Eco-Fasten: http://www.ecofastensolar.com/store/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory=4 On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at 5:04 PM, Jay wrote: Hi all Any options for standing metal seam clamps besides S-5! Snap n rack ? Thanks in advance Jay Peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 73581 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dyoung at dovetailsolar.com Fri Aug 14 12:25:26 2015 From: dyoung at dovetailsolar.com (Daniel Young) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 12:25:26 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Serviceable equipment on a roof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007c01d0d6ad$d4050750$7c0f15f0$@com> We sent a response this morning, this would have been a good addition to show precedent. If they turn us down after this, we will likely take them to appeals court. We just can’t let our state code agency try to enforce a rule that is clearly wrong, and hurts the potential for future projects so drastically. This is what we sent this morning: We fully believe by definition that the 10’-0” clearance requirement as stated on Correction Letter #1 dated 08/13/15 does not include Solar PV modules. Please review the attached Code references for further explanation. OBC 2011 1013.5 Mechanical equipment. Guards shall be provided where appliances, equipment, fans, roof hatch openings or other components that require service are located within 10 feet (3048 mm) of a roof edge or open side of a walking surface and such edge or open side is located more than 30 inches (762 mm) above the floor, roof or grade below. The guard shall be constructed so as to prevent the passage of a sphere 21 inches (533 mm) in diameter. The guard shall extend not less than 30 inches (762 mm) beyond each end of such appliance, equipment, fan or component. This section of code is intended for Mechanical equipment, equipment with fans, controllers, refrigerant, ducts, etc… that do require service during their designed life. Solar PV modules are not mechanical equipment, they are solid state electrical components that require no service during their design life, they in-fact contain no serviceable parts whatsoever. As such the Solar PV modules are also not subject to the working space requirements of NEC section 110 (specifically 110.26 (A) which further stipulates that working space is needed around equipment “…operating at 600 volts, nominal, or less to ground and likely to require examination, adjustment, servicing, or maintenance…” ). IB 2015 The 2015 IBC 1512.1 states that Photovoltaic Modules shall also be installed with compliance to the IFC. The 2015 IFC 605.11.1.3.1 states that the modules must only be clear of the roof edge by 6’, unless either axis of the building is less than 250’ (which is the case at this site), in which case only 4’ of clear space is needed on commercial rooftops. Will let you all know if it holds up. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 Lead Systems Designer for: Dovetail 2013 cmyk 300dpi.jpg www.dovetailsolar.com Ph: 740-274-0139 We’ve completed nearly 400 renewable energy projects! Check out a few in our photo gallery: http://www.dovetailsolar.com/Our-Work.aspx?path=commercial+-+solar+electric This email message and attachments are intended only for the addressee. It may contain information which is legally privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, you may not disclose, print, copy or disseminate this message and/or the information contained in the message. If you have received this message in error, please reply and notify the sender (only) and delete this message along with any attachments. Unauthorized interception of this email is a violation of criminal laws and laws covering electronic communications privacy matters. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Steven Lawrence Sent: Friday, August 14, 2015 11:36 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Serviceable equipment on a roof Hi Dan, I don't know which state you're in, but the state of NJ put out a notice stating that solar panels do not require servicing. This came from the top electrical inspector back in 2010. The link can be found at http://www.state.nj.us/dca/divisions/codes/publications/pdf_ccc/ccc_spring2010.pdf It's located on page 11. Hopefully this might sway your inspector. Good luck! _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6086 / Virus Database: 4392/10434 - Release Date: 08/14/15 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 4343 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Aug 14 12:18:54 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 06:18:54 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] wiring methods between arrays In-Reply-To: <62f6be592baac5311023955c884235b2@mail.gmail.com> References: <62f6be592baac5311023955c884235b2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: How ever its done conduit or channel we really need to reduce the trip hazard between sub arrays, It does not matter if its enphase or string inverters keeping the conduit from this hazard should be on the list of "To Do's" also Jerry On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 12:19 PM, August Goers wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > > > I have another best practices questions: what are you doing to run your PV > wire between arrays on a rooftops? This question has come up on this list > in the past but I’m still on the hunt for a robust and faster lower cost > method. We mostly install outdoor boxes on each sub array and then run EMT > between these boxes. We use strain reliefs to enter the boxes and then > either keep PV wire or transition to THWN-2 in the EMT depending on the > layout. This method takes time and the outdoor boxes aren’t cheap. > Alternatively, we can run open-ended EMT with ground bushings on the ends > to bond the conduit. Since ground bushings are designed to be used in boxes > we switch out the aluminum lug with a tin-coated outdoor rated lug and > stainless hardware. This technically violates the listing but at least the > materials hold up. The EMT needs to be carefully bent down at the ends so > rain doesn’t enter. Lastly, we sometimes run our PV wires along strut or > angle aluminum (this is the fastest method) which also needs to be bonded > with a lay-in lug. > > > > Does anyone have other methods? > > > > Best, > > > > August > > Luminalt > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Aug 14 15:17:34 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 13:17:34 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] wiring methods between arrays In-Reply-To: References: <62f6be592baac5311023955c884235b2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <55CE3ECE.9050303@solarray.com> What would be nifty, is if the chase was at the angle of the roof, so that its top edge was level. Then instead of being a trip hazard it could be a step. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 8/14/2015 10:18 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > How ever its done conduit or channel we really need to reduce the trip > hazard between sub arrays, It does not matter if its enphase or string > inverters keeping the conduit from this hazard should be on the list > of "To Do's" also > Jerry > > On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 12:19 PM, August Goers > wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, > > I have another best practices questions: what are you doing to run > your PV wire between arrays on a rooftops? This question has come > up on this list in the past but I’m still on the hunt for a robust > and faster lower cost method. We mostly install outdoor boxes on > each sub array and then run EMT between these boxes. We use strain > reliefs to enter the boxes and then either keep PV wire or > transition to THWN-2 in the EMT depending on the layout. This > method takes time and the outdoor boxes aren’t cheap. > Alternatively, we can run open-ended EMT with ground bushings on > the ends to bond the conduit. Since ground bushings are designed > to be used in boxes we switch out the aluminum lug with a > tin-coated outdoor rated lug and stainless hardware. This > technically violates the listing but at least the materials hold > up. The EMT needs to be carefully bent down at the ends so rain > doesn’t enter. Lastly, we sometimes run our PV wires along strut > or angle aluminum (this is the fastest method) which also needs to > be bonded with a lay-in lug. > > Does anyone have other methods? > > Best, > > August > > Luminalt > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sat Aug 15 17:59:09 2015 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 17:59:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Name that rail... In-Reply-To: <203F796E-B467-48DA-8248-AF732A281207@skyfireenergy.com> References: <203F796E-B467-48DA-8248-AF732A281207@skyfireenergy.com> Message-ID: <20150815215920.E4A0A1033C@che.dreamhost.com> Peak solar? Sincerely, Glenn Burt Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. -----Original Message----- From: "Benn Kilburn" Sent: ‎8/‎13/‎2015 17:29 To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: [RE-wrenches] Name that rail... Can anyone identify this rail type? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sun Aug 16 15:40:29 2015 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 15:40:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Name that rail... In-Reply-To: <20150815215920.E4A0A1033C@che.dreamhost.com> References: <203F796E-B467-48DA-8248-AF732A281207@skyfireenergy.com> <20150815215920.E4A0A1033C@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <000001d0d85b$6a389120$3ea9b360$@burt@glbcc.com> Jeeze, I meant Polar racking… Their PRR line. http://www.polarracking.com/products/prr-2/ -Glenn From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2015 5:59 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Name that rail... Peak solar? Sincerely, Glenn Burt Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. _____ From: Benn Kilburn Sent: ‎8/‎13/‎2015 17:29 To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Name that rail... Can anyone identify this rail type? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sun Aug 16 17:13:08 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 14:13:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Name that rail... In-Reply-To: <55d0eaff.a3e6420a.f8078.ffff9c4cSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <203F796E-B467-48DA-8248-AF732A281207@skyfireenergy.com> <20150815215920.E4A0A1033C@che.dreamhost.com> <55d0eaff.a3e6420a.f8078.ffff9c4cSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <43357C7D-E1B2-4866-A678-88F710255437@millersolar.com> Is it a quality product? Solid? Easy to install? Thanks! > On Aug 16, 2015, at 12:40 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: > > Jeeze, I meant Polar racking… > Their PRR line. > http://www.polarracking.com/products/prr-2/ > > -Glenn > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt > Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2015 5:59 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Name that rail... > > Peak solar? > > Sincerely, > Glenn Burt > Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. > From: Benn Kilburn > Sent: ‎8/‎13/‎2015 17:29 > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Name that rail... > > Can anyone identify this rail type? > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Mon Aug 17 11:32:56 2015 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 08:32:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Name that rail... In-Reply-To: <43357C7D-E1B2-4866-A678-88F710255437@millersolar.com> References: <203F796E-B467-48DA-8248-AF732A281207@skyfireenergy.com> <20150815215920.E4A0A1033C@che.dreamhost.com> <55d0eaff.a3e6420a.f8078.ffff9c4cSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <43357C7D-E1B2-4866-A678-88F710255437@millersolar.com> Message-ID: <7AD52FD8-C8E7-4465-9F12-8F150CDD990A@skyfireenergy.com> I can't say William. It was only rails, no hardware and besides, we are not using it. It was delivered to our (out of town) site in error along with our project's racking which came directly from the manufacturer. Funny thing is, these mystery rails are from a different mfgr than the direct shipped rails we are using. Side note... 24 of 37 of the mystery rails are badly damaged, while only 5 of the 33 rails we ordered were damaged. Feel free to starts new topic on receiving damaged rails or other materials. (Our replacement rails are on their way) Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 > On Aug 16, 2015, at 2:13 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Is it a quality product? Solid? Easy to install? > > Thanks! > > > >> On Aug 16, 2015, at 12:40 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: >> >> Jeeze, I meant Polar racking… >> Their PRR line. >> http://www.polarracking.com/products/prr-2/ >> >> -Glenn >> >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt >> Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2015 5:59 PM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Name that rail... >> >> Peak solar? >> >> Sincerely, >> Glenn Burt >> Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. >> From: Benn Kilburn >> Sent: ‎8/‎13/‎2015 17:29 >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Name that rail... >> >> Can anyone identify this rail type? >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarwindworks.com Mon Aug 17 15:03:02 2015 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 12:03:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Name that rail... In-Reply-To: <7AD52FD8-C8E7-4465-9F12-8F150CDD990A@skyfireenergy.com> References: <203F796E-B467-48DA-8248-AF732A281207@skyfireenergy.com> <20150815215920.E4A0A1033C@che.dreamhost.com> <55d0eaff.a3e6420a.f8078.ffff9c4cSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <43357C7D-E1B2-4866-A678-88F710255437@millersolar.com> <7AD52FD8-C8E7-4465-9F12-8F150CDD990A@skyfireenergy.com> Message-ID: <00df01d0d91f$58fb1d50$0af157f0$@solarwindworks.com> Any time we have the opportunity to head to the warehouse and pick up rails directly, along with the modules, we make every effort to do so. This has saved many frustrations in shipping returns and turn arounds. Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP Certified PV Installer Office 530-582-4503 Cell 530-448-9692 Fax 530-582-4603 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Benn Kilburn Sent: Monday, August 17, 2015 8:33 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Name that rail... I can't say William. It was only rails, no hardware and besides, we are not using it. It was delivered to our (out of town) site in error along with our project's racking which came directly from the manufacturer. Funny thing is, these mystery rails are from a different mfgr than the direct shipped rails we are using. Side note... 24 of 37 of the mystery rails are badly damaged, while only 5 of the 33 rails we ordered were damaged. Feel free to starts new topic on receiving damaged rails or other materials. (Our replacement rails are on their way) Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 On Aug 16, 2015, at 2:13 PM, William Miller wrote: Is it a quality product? Solid? Easy to install? Thanks! On Aug 16, 2015, at 12:40 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: Jeeze, I meant Polar racking… Their PRR line. http://www.polarracking.com/products/prr-2/ -Glenn From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2015 5:59 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Name that rail... Peak solar? Sincerely, Glenn Burt Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. _____ From: Benn Kilburn Sent: ‎8/‎13/‎2015 17:29 To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Name that rail... Can anyone identify this rail type? _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Aug 17 16:10:42 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 14:10:42 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupled with Generator Message-ID: <55D23FC2.5050003@solarray.com> HI Esteemed Wrenches: I am consulting on a system I have never seen, that consists of a 6.7Kw Enphase roof mounted system, and 2 backup generators. Each generator has an automatic 200 amp transfer switch to back up its own 200 amp panel. Both 200 amp panels are fed by a 400 amp service from the grid. The Enphase PV backfeeds a subpanel in another building which then is fed by a 2 pole 60 amp breaker in one of the 200 amp panels. Currently they are having issues with the generators kicking out because of the Enphase inverters. That part I understand: you can't backfeed a generator, or its voltage regulation freaks out. Now we get to the fun part: they want to create a third critical load subpanel with loads selected from both 200 amp panels to be powered by batteries and an inverter. I am considering the Sunny Island since it makes the most sense with its ability to signal the Enphase inverters to shut off when the batteries are full. I also see this as a partial solution to the generator issue, since normally the Enphase will be connected to the output side of the Sunny Island. However, when the generator is used to charge, we will be back to directly coupling the generator output to the Enphase. Here are some possible solutions I'm considering: 1) Use a separate charger for the generator so that it will only feed DC to the batteries, and not be AC coupled. 2) convert the PV back to DC with charge controllers, but that would involve ditching and adding another conduit run between buildings. 3) Put the Enphase PV on a relay that would disconnect the PV when charging with the generator. 4) Something I haven't thought of that one of you clever folks can suggest...... As always, thanks in advance for all you responses, -- R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 From pgiroux at mindspring.com Mon Aug 17 16:31:58 2015 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (Peter Giroux) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 16:31:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupled with Generator References: <55D23FC2.5050003@solarray.com> Message-ID: Ray Couple of thoughts on your application. We used to use the sunny islands a lot, challenge is they are only 120 volt so we needed to have two or add a transformer, which proved problematic with the grid tied inverters and hertz ranges. So now we use the Outback 4048 and 8048 radians ( 8048 cost close to the same as a Sunny Island ) is 240, no transformer needed and a simple relay to break the main neutral on the enphases will shut them off when the voltage goes too high if the grid goes down and there is no load. Outback also has their load center that has the circuitry built in to shut off the enphases. Keep it all ac, make it an AC coupled application, the enphases should work very well partnered with the radians. The radian hooks to the main service panel on AC in. AC out runs to the critical loads panel and you can run the enphase system right into the critical loads panel. While power is up the system works just like a grid tied system with the battery portion and radian in standby. When the power goes down, not a flinch, everything in the critical loads panel is hot, with the battery system and the grid tied system. Very nice setup peter giroux ASAE ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Walters" To: "RE-wrenches" Sent: Monday, August 17, 2015 4:10 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupled with Generator > HI Esteemed Wrenches: > > I am consulting on a system I have never seen, that consists of a 6.7Kw > Enphase roof mounted system, and 2 backup generators. Each generator has > an automatic 200 amp transfer switch to back up its own 200 amp panel. > Both 200 amp panels are fed by a 400 amp service from the grid. > The Enphase PV backfeeds a subpanel in another building which then is fed > by a 2 pole 60 amp breaker in one of the 200 amp panels. > Currently they are having issues with the generators kicking out because > of the Enphase inverters. That part I understand: you can't backfeed a > generator, or its voltage regulation freaks out. > > Now we get to the fun part: they want to create a third critical load > subpanel with loads selected from both 200 amp panels to be powered by > batteries and an inverter. > I am considering the Sunny Island since it makes the most sense with its > ability to signal the Enphase inverters to shut off when the batteries are > full. I also see this as a partial solution to the generator issue, since > normally the Enphase will be connected to the output side of the Sunny > Island. However, when the generator is used to charge, we will be back to > directly coupling the generator output to the Enphase. > > Here are some possible solutions I'm considering: > 1) Use a separate charger for the generator so that it will only feed DC > to the batteries, and not be AC coupled. > 2) convert the PV back to DC with charge controllers, but that would > involve ditching and adding another conduit run between buildings. > 3) Put the Enphase PV on a relay that would disconnect the PV when > charging with the generator. > 4) Something I haven't thought of that one of you clever folks can > suggest...... > > As always, thanks in advance for all you responses, > > -- > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From dyoung at dovetailsolar.com Mon Aug 17 17:29:16 2015 From: dyoung at dovetailsolar.com (Daniel Young) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 17:29:16 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Iron Phosphate Message-ID: <019e01d0d933$c51c2560$4f547020$@com> Hello Wrenches, I've been trying to think through how I can mate some lower cost charge controllers (prostar 15A 24v PWM units, or the new 30A Midnite solar Brat) to some 8s LiFePo battery banks. As I understand it, lithium batteries meant to be charged to around 3.65V per cell (29.2V for the 8 cell bank) and then the charge is terminated, not put into a float mode. Assuming I use a PCM to protect the batteries, so that each cell has a balancing function and also over/under voltage protection. Would the battery bank accept a simple charge controller that in essence, charged to 3.65V/cell, then backed down to a float voltage that was lower than it's resting voltage, say 3.3V/cell. In theory at that voltage, there would be little/no charge current going to the batteries. Or would the cells still take in a small amount of power at these voltages and start to overcharge/degrade? Again, I'd plan to have a full PCM circuit protecting cells and balancing them, but I'd like to have a good way to charge the batteries with solar (right now I'm shooting for using a 72cell module and 24V nominal LiFePo battery stack, so maybe there is another way that I can use, but I've not decided to buy any batteries I am ok with accidently blowing up if I'm wrongJ). With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 22:36:19 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 16:36:19 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupled with Generator In-Reply-To: <55D23FC2.5050003@solarray.com> References: <55D23FC2.5050003@solarray.com> Message-ID: I cant see this working well without some battery based inverter Jerry On Aug 17, 2015 10:10 AM, "Ray Walters" wrote: > HI Esteemed Wrenches: > > I am consulting on a system I have never seen, that consists of a 6.7Kw > Enphase roof mounted system, and 2 backup generators. Each generator has > an automatic 200 amp transfer switch to back up its own 200 amp panel. > Both 200 amp panels are fed by a 400 amp service from the grid. > The Enphase PV backfeeds a subpanel in another building which then is fed > by a 2 pole 60 amp breaker in one of the 200 amp panels. > Currently they are having issues with the generators kicking out because > of the Enphase inverters. That part I understand: you can't backfeed a > generator, or its voltage regulation freaks out. > > Now we get to the fun part: they want to create a third critical load > subpanel with loads selected from both 200 amp panels to be powered by > batteries and an inverter. > I am considering the Sunny Island since it makes the most sense with its > ability to signal the Enphase inverters to shut off when the batteries are > full. I also see this as a partial solution to the generator issue, since > normally the Enphase will be connected to the output side of the Sunny > Island. However, when the generator is used to charge, we will be back to > directly coupling the generator output to the Enphase. > > Here are some possible solutions I'm considering: > 1) Use a separate charger for the generator so that it will only feed DC > to the batteries, and not be AC coupled. > 2) convert the PV back to DC with charge controllers, but that would > involve ditching and adding another conduit run between buildings. > 3) Put the Enphase PV on a relay that would disconnect the PV when > charging with the generator. > 4) Something I haven't thought of that one of you clever folks can > suggest...... > > As always, thanks in advance for all you responses, > > -- > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Aug 17 23:26:01 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 21:26:01 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupled with Generator In-Reply-To: References: <55D23FC2.5050003@solarray.com> Message-ID: <55D2A5C9.2030803@solarray.com> Yes, we're definitely planning a battery based inverter. The real trouble is when the generator is charging, its AC power passes through to the loads and hence to the Enphase inverters. Also I agree with the other poster about Outback being more cost effective. I just took a look at their Remote Operated Circuit Breaker (ROCB) and this looks like a good option. I've done dump loads before, and never found that to be an elegant solution. Any other options I should be looking at? Thanks, R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 8/17/2015 8:36 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > I cant see this working well without some battery based inverter > Jerry > > On Aug 17, 2015 10:10 AM, "Ray Walters" > wrote: > > HI Esteemed Wrenches: > > I am consulting on a system I have never seen, that consists of a > 6.7Kw Enphase roof mounted system, and 2 backup generators. Each > generator has an automatic 200 amp transfer switch to back up its > own 200 amp panel. Both 200 amp panels are fed by a 400 amp > service from the grid. > The Enphase PV backfeeds a subpanel in another building which then > is fed by a 2 pole 60 amp breaker in one of the 200 amp panels. > Currently they are having issues with the generators kicking out > because of the Enphase inverters. That part I understand: you > can't backfeed a generator, or its voltage regulation freaks out. > > Now we get to the fun part: they want to create a third critical > load subpanel with loads selected from both 200 amp panels to be > powered by batteries and an inverter. > I am considering the Sunny Island since it makes the most sense > with its ability to signal the Enphase inverters to shut off when > the batteries are full. I also see this as a partial solution to > the generator issue, since normally the Enphase will be connected > to the output side of the Sunny Island. However, when the > generator is used to charge, we will be back to directly coupling > the generator output to the Enphase. > > Here are some possible solutions I'm considering: > 1) Use a separate charger for the generator so that it will only > feed DC to the batteries, and not be AC coupled. > 2) convert the PV back to DC with charge controllers, but that > would involve ditching and adding another conduit run between > buildings. > 3) Put the Enphase PV on a relay that would disconnect the PV > when charging with the generator. > 4) Something I haven't thought of that one of you clever folks can > suggest...... > > As always, thanks in advance for all you responses, > > -- > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 23:39:26 2015 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 21:39:26 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupled with Generator In-Reply-To: References: <55D23FC2.5050003@solarray.com> Message-ID: Hi Ray, With that size grid-tied system, you would want to use a battery based inverter(s) near the (6.7/0.8) 8000W range. The frequency shift of the Sunny Islands will work with kicking out the enphase inverters but you wouldn't get the same output ramping that it would offer if it was a Sunny Boy grid-tied inverter. The Sunny Island can effectively solve your generator backfeeding because there is a reverse current sensor that will disconnect the AC input at whatever level you want, 50 mA is default I think. You may need to give the Sunny Island generator start control for this however. You can read about it here on page 137. http://files.sma.de/dl/15216/SI4548-6048-US-BE-en-21W.pdf You'll need to give the Sunny Island a digital signal that tell it whether its connected to a generator or a grid as outlined in the manual. This is where the Radian is nice because it has two AC Input terminals. Sounds like an interesting project. Good Luck. On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 8:36 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > I cant see this working well without some battery based inverter > Jerry > On Aug 17, 2015 10:10 AM, "Ray Walters" wrote: > >> HI Esteemed Wrenches: >> >> I am consulting on a system I have never seen, that consists of a 6.7Kw >> Enphase roof mounted system, and 2 backup generators. Each generator has >> an automatic 200 amp transfer switch to back up its own 200 amp panel. >> Both 200 amp panels are fed by a 400 amp service from the grid. >> The Enphase PV backfeeds a subpanel in another building which then is fed >> by a 2 pole 60 amp breaker in one of the 200 amp panels. >> Currently they are having issues with the generators kicking out because >> of the Enphase inverters. That part I understand: you can't backfeed a >> generator, or its voltage regulation freaks out. >> >> Now we get to the fun part: they want to create a third critical load >> subpanel with loads selected from both 200 amp panels to be powered by >> batteries and an inverter. >> I am considering the Sunny Island since it makes the most sense with its >> ability to signal the Enphase inverters to shut off when the batteries are >> full. I also see this as a partial solution to the generator issue, since >> normally the Enphase will be connected to the output side of the Sunny >> Island. However, when the generator is used to charge, we will be back to >> directly coupling the generator output to the Enphase. >> >> Here are some possible solutions I'm considering: >> 1) Use a separate charger for the generator so that it will only feed DC >> to the batteries, and not be AC coupled. >> 2) convert the PV back to DC with charge controllers, but that would >> involve ditching and adding another conduit run between buildings. >> 3) Put the Enphase PV on a relay that would disconnect the PV when >> charging with the generator. >> 4) Something I haven't thought of that one of you clever folks can >> suggest...... >> >> As always, thanks in advance for all you responses, >> >> -- >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Aug 18 00:15:54 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 18:15:54 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupled with Generator In-Reply-To: <55D2A5C9.2030803@solarray.com> References: <55D23FC2.5050003@solarray.com> <55D2A5C9.2030803@solarray.com> Message-ID: Ray The Outback does not dump load it drops inverter string (s) instead Jerry On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 5:26 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > Yes, we're definitely planning a battery based inverter. The real trouble > is when the generator is charging, its AC power passes through to the loads > and hence to the Enphase inverters. > Also I agree with the other poster about Outback being more cost > effective. I just took a look at their Remote Operated Circuit Breaker > (ROCB) and this looks like a good option. > I've done dump loads before, and never found that to be an elegant > solution. Any other options I should be looking at? > > Thanks, > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 > > On 8/17/2015 8:36 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > I cant see this working well without some battery based inverter > Jerry > On Aug 17, 2015 10:10 AM, "Ray Walters" wrote: > >> HI Esteemed Wrenches: >> >> I am consulting on a system I have never seen, that consists of a 6.7Kw >> Enphase roof mounted system, and 2 backup generators. Each generator has >> an automatic 200 amp transfer switch to back up its own 200 amp panel. >> Both 200 amp panels are fed by a 400 amp service from the grid. >> The Enphase PV backfeeds a subpanel in another building which then is fed >> by a 2 pole 60 amp breaker in one of the 200 amp panels. >> Currently they are having issues with the generators kicking out because >> of the Enphase inverters. That part I understand: you can't backfeed a >> generator, or its voltage regulation freaks out. >> >> Now we get to the fun part: they want to create a third critical load >> subpanel with loads selected from both 200 amp panels to be powered by >> batteries and an inverter. >> I am considering the Sunny Island since it makes the most sense with its >> ability to signal the Enphase inverters to shut off when the batteries are >> full. I also see this as a partial solution to the generator issue, since >> normally the Enphase will be connected to the output side of the Sunny >> Island. However, when the generator is used to charge, we will be back to >> directly coupling the generator output to the Enphase. >> >> Here are some possible solutions I'm considering: >> 1) Use a separate charger for the generator so that it will only feed DC >> to the batteries, and not be AC coupled. >> 2) convert the PV back to DC with charge controllers, but that would >> involve ditching and adding another conduit run between buildings. >> 3) Put the Enphase PV on a relay that would disconnect the PV when >> charging with the generator. >> 4) Something I haven't thought of that one of you clever folks can >> suggest...... >> >> As always, thanks in advance for all you responses, >> >> -- >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Tue Aug 18 10:45:48 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 08:45:48 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Iron Phosphate In-Reply-To: <019e01d0d933$c51c2560$4f547020$@com> References: <019e01d0d933$c51c2560$4f547020$@com> Message-ID: <26771CF9-26AC-4FC2-858B-DF88B404101C@starlightsolar.com> Hello Daniel, With such an expensive battery, I would not recommend trying to use the controllers you mentioned. The voltages are wrong and, more importantly, temperature compensation and automatic EQ will damage your battery. To date, there are no PV solar charge controllers on the market that provide the ideal profile for LFP battery charging. But, you can get close with some. We use Blue Sky Energy and Midnite Classics for all our Lithium-ion systems. No need for you to invent something new. I might be offering TMI here but, you asked. When you reduce the charge voltage to less than the potential voltage of the bank, you will begin discharging. As soon as there is an equilibrium of voltage, your controller will maintain a CV float charge on the battery as well as provide power to loads. Of course, this is how all battery charging works but something different happens with LFP batteries. With this float voltage, you will see an oscillation of charging and discharging because LFP batteries have such a narrow voltage range compared to a charge controllers regulation. Just 0.05 volts will make the difference here. This can begin to unbalance the bank because efficiency of the cells is not exact; some absorbing, some not based on voltage. I have studied this but it's not a problem since all the all the systems we have designed use PV solar power. During the next charge cycle, the battery voltage will rise above the balancer voltage (our systems use 3.55V/cell) and bring up the lower cells. For our systems, I program a CV (3.6V/cell as I use LFMP batteries) for about 20 to 30 minutes. This is normally long enough to allow any higher capacity cells to catch up to the lower ones but due to the low voltage (LFMP can be charged up to 3.8V/cell) no cells are 100% charged. In fact, the charge parameters are specifically set to prevent 100% charge to provide optimum life. You said when you hit your target voltage (3.65/cell) you are stopping the charge. At that point the LFP battery is not fully charged and that is good for the life of the cells. However, unless your balancers are starting at a much lower voltage, they won’t have any time to do their job. This is because charging LFP batteries you are always in the bulk mode at a voltage much lower than your cut-off setpoint. During the last 5% or so, the voltage will rise quickly, thus no time to balance. The way to “blow up” a battery is apply too high a voltage and/or go beyond 100% absorption thus creating excessive internal heat (again, like all batteries). Keep voltages low while you experiment and never leave a CV bulk or absorb voltage on the battery. Let me know if you have more questions about LFP batteries. I’m looking forward to the coming price reductions where this technology can become mainstream as the benefits are far superior to lead acid technology. Primarily 40% faster charging, always using the full current available and never a need to fully charge. Hopefully some RE equipment manufacturers will see this coming potential and design suitable chargers. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Aug 17, 2015, at 3:29 PM, Daniel Young wrote: Hello Wrenches, I’ve been trying to think through how I can mate some lower cost charge controllers (prostar 15A 24v PWM units, or the new 30A Midnite solar Brat) to some 8s LiFePo battery banks. As I understand it, lithium batteries meant to be charged to around 3.65V per cell (29.2V for the 8 cell bank) and then the charge is terminated, not put into a float mode. Assuming I use a PCM to protect the batteries, so that each cell has a balancing function and also over/under voltage protection. Would the battery bank accept a simple charge controller that in essence, charged to 3.65V/cell, then backed down to a float voltage that was lower than it’s resting voltage, say 3.3V/cell. In theory at that voltage, there would be little/no charge current going to the batteries. Or would the cells still take in a small amount of power at these voltages and start to overcharge/degrade? Again, I’d plan to have a full PCM circuit protecting cells and balancing them, but I’d like to have a good way to charge the batteries with solar (right now I’m shooting for using a 72cell module and 24V nominal LiFePo battery stack, so maybe there is another way that I can use, but I’ve not decided to buy any batteries I am ok with accidently blowing up if I’m wrongJ). With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter.parrish at calsolareng.com Tue Aug 18 10:31:35 2015 From: peter.parrish at calsolareng.com (Peter Parrish) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 07:31:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Iron Phosphate In-Reply-To: <019e01d0d933$c51c2560$4f547020$@com> References: <019e01d0d933$c51c2560$4f547020$@com> Message-ID: <001e01d0d9c2$9a7cd720$cf768560$@parrish@calsolareng.com> I too am interested in LiFeP batteries. I think we need some more information on charge/discharge cycles. I've bits and pieces, but there must be some solid data from Panasonic or one of the other LiFeP manufacturers. Such as, Recommended charge cycle Maximum discharge rate Low voltage disconnect Also I expect all of the CC manufacturers are thinking about LiFeP or similar Li technology. Maybe if one of us has a friend at Outback Power, Morningstar, Midnite Solar, we could find out more. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Young Sent: Monday, August 17, 2015 2:29 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Iron Phosphate Hello Wrenches, I've been trying to think through how I can mate some lower cost charge controllers (prostar 15A 24v PWM units, or the new 30A Midnite solar Brat) to some 8s LiFePo battery banks. As I understand it, lithium batteries meant to be charged to around 3.65V per cell (29.2V for the 8 cell bank) and then the charge is terminated, not put into a float mode. Assuming I use a PCM to protect the batteries, so that each cell has a balancing function and also over/under voltage protection. Would the battery bank accept a simple charge controller that in essence, charged to 3.65V/cell, then backed down to a float voltage that was lower than it's resting voltage, say 3.3V/cell. In theory at that voltage, there would be little/no charge current going to the batteries. Or would the cells still take in a small amount of power at these voltages and start to overcharge/degrade? Again, I'd plan to have a full PCM circuit protecting cells and balancing them, but I'd like to have a good way to charge the batteries with solar (right now I'm shooting for using a 72cell module and 24V nominal LiFePo battery stack, so maybe there is another way that I can use, but I've not decided to buy any batteries I am ok with accidently blowing up if I'm wrongJ). With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Tue Aug 18 12:36:56 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 10:36:56 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Iron Phosphate In-Reply-To: <001e01d0d9c2$9a7cd720$cf768560$@parrish@calsolareng.com> References: <019e01d0d933$c51c2560$4f547020$@com> <001e01d0d9c2$9a7cd720$cf768560$@parrish@calsolareng.com> Message-ID: <2AF06175-B7BE-41E0-A6D0-BB691E1AFC62@starlightsolar.com> Hello Peter, Panasonic does not make lithium iron (LFP or LiFePO4) batteries, theirs are Lithium cobalt oxide (LiCoO2). Because RE system commonly have multiple charge sources, I think LiCoO2 is not as suitable due to the poor handling of over voltage events. Lithium iron phosphate (LFP) are far more overcharge tolerant and readily available in high capacity cells. Another problem with using LiCoO2 cells is they require 4.2V/cell to charge making it a difficult fit with common RE equipment. Each manufacturer has recommended charge profiles. It will be difficult to follow these unless the battery is disconnected from loads while charging. For all Lithium batteries, the discharge rate is many times greater than would ever practically be used in a RE system. Most can be discharged at 3C and surge up to 10C. A 20kWh bank could supply 60kW continuously. Don’t try that with your LA battery! Low voltage disconnect is (or should be) built into any LFP battery system as permanent damage can happen instantly. I recently had to repair a LFMP propulsion battery system (not designed by us) that was over discharged one time. It cost $6000 for me to make the repairs and install the protective solenoids. The Battery manufacturer had warnings in their installation manual against not using proper LVD but the builder skipped that part. Magnum Energy has a come out with a CC/CV profile that works well with LFP batteries but it’s still not the needed profile. There are many differences and factors to be addressed for the RE industry. One hurdle to overcome in RE applications is that varying loads are applied while charging. A proper LFP charger will vary the power during the charge cycle but has no way of knowing that loads are present. That creates a real challenge for equipment makers but can be resolved by designing CAN interface and software that communicates with chargers and control CPU’s to make the adjustments on the fly. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Aug 18, 2015, at 8:31 AM, Peter Parrish wrote: I too am interested in LiFeP batteries. I think we need some more information on charge/discharge cycles. I’ve bits and pieces, but there must be some solid data from Panasonic or one of the other LiFeP manufacturers. Such as, Recommended charge cycle Maximum discharge rate Low voltage disconnect Also I expect all of the CC manufacturers are thinking about LiFeP or similar Li technology. Maybe if one of us has a friend at Outback Power, Morningstar, Midnite Solar, we could find out more. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Young Sent: Monday, August 17, 2015 2:29 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Iron Phosphate Hello Wrenches, I’ve been trying to think through how I can mate some lower cost charge controllers (prostar 15A 24v PWM units, or the new 30A Midnite solar Brat) to some 8s LiFePo battery banks. As I understand it, lithium batteries meant to be charged to around 3.65V per cell (29.2V for the 8 cell bank) and then the charge is terminated, not put into a float mode. Assuming I use a PCM to protect the batteries, so that each cell has a balancing function and also over/under voltage voltages and start to overcharge/degrade? Again, I’d plan to have a full PCM circuit protecting cells and balancing them, but I’d like to have a good way to chargeJ). With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 From marco at pvthawaii.com Tue Aug 18 13:28:21 2015 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 07:28:21 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Iron Phosphate In-Reply-To: <2AF06175-B7BE-41E0-A6D0-BB691E1AFC62@starlightsolar.com> References: <019e01d0d933$c51c2560$4f547020$@com> <001e01d0d9c2$9a7cd720$cf768560$@parrish@calsolareng.com> <2AF06175-B7BE-41E0-A6D0-BB691E1AFC62@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <00cd01d0d9db$4883b240$d98b16c0$@com> Sony is now producing an impressive LFP battery. Attached is the spec sheet. marco Hello Peter, Panasonic does not make lithium iron (LFP or LiFePO4) batteries, theirs are Lithium cobalt oxide (LiCoO2). Because RE system commonly have multiple charge sources, I think LiCoO2 is not as suitable due to the poor handling of over voltage events. Lithium iron phosphate (LFP) are far more overcharge tolerant and readily available in high capacity cells. Another problem with using LiCoO2 cells is they require 4.2V/cell to charge making it a difficult fit with common RE equipment. Each manufacturer has recommended charge profiles. It will be difficult to follow these unless the battery is disconnected from loads while charging. For all Lithium batteries, the discharge rate is many times greater than would ever practically be used in a RE system. Most can be discharged at 3C and surge up to 10C. A 20kWh bank could supply 60kW continuously. Don’t try that with your LA battery! Low voltage disconnect is (or should be) built into any LFP battery system as permanent damage can happen instantly. I recently had to repair a LFMP propulsion battery system (not designed by us) that was over discharged one time. It cost $6000 for me to make the repairs and install the protective solenoids. The Battery manufacturer had warnings in their installation manual against not using proper LVD but the builder skipped that part. Magnum Energy has a come out with a CC/CV profile that works well with LFP batteries but it’s still not the needed profile. There are many differences and factors to be addressed for the RE industry. One hurdle to overcome in RE applications is that varying loads are applied while charging. A proper LFP charger will vary the power during the charge cycle but has no way of knowing that loads are present. That creates a real challenge for equipment makers but can be resolved by designing CAN interface and software that communicates with chargers and control CPU’s to make the adjustments on the fly. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Aug 18, 2015, at 8:31 AM, Peter Parrish wrote: I too am interested in LiFeP batteries. I think we need some more information on charge/discharge cycles. I’ve bits and pieces, but there must be some solid data from Panasonic or one of the other LiFeP manufacturers. Such as, Recommended charge cycle Maximum discharge rate Low voltage disconnect Also I expect all of the CC manufacturers are thinking about LiFeP or similar Li technology. Maybe if one of us has a friend at Outback Power, Morningstar, Midnite Solar, we could find out more. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Young Sent: Monday, August 17, 2015 2:29 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Iron Phosphate Hello Wrenches, I’ve been trying to think through how I can mate some lower cost charge controllers (prostar 15A 24v PWM units, or the new 30A Midnite solar Brat) to some 8s LiFePo battery banks. As I understand it, lithium batteries meant to be charged to around 3.65V per cell (29.2V for the 8 cell bank) and then the charge is terminated, not put into a float mode. Assuming I use a PCM to protect the batteries, so that each cell has a balancing function and also over/under voltage voltages and start to overcharge/degrade? Again, I’d plan to have a full PCM circuit protecting cells and balancing them, but I’d like to have a good way to chargeJ). With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Sony-Storage-system-data-sheet-10-08-2012.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 650078 bytes Desc: not available URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Tue Aug 18 15:24:15 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 13:24:15 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Iron Phosphate In-Reply-To: <00cd01d0d9db$4883b240$d98b16c0$@com> References: <019e01d0d933$c51c2560$4f547020$@com> <001e01d0d9c2$9a7cd720$cf768560$@parrish@calsolareng.com> <2AF06175-B7BE-41E0-A6D0-BB691E1AFC62@starlightsolar.com> <00cd01d0d9db$4883b240$d98b16c0$@com> Message-ID: <57A7E545-9673-42A5-8073-435E252C6510@starlightsolar.com> Thanks Marco, very impressive product. I like the idea of redundancy per module so if a cell fails, only that one module will shut down. I can build that now with multiple CPU’s with our GBS line but after looking at the EU street price, I can’t match the value. But, I don’t see it available in the US, only in EU. Do you know if it is available for US market? Larry On Aug 18, 2015, at 11:28 AM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: Sony is now producing an impressive LFP battery. Attached is the spec sheet. marco Hello Peter, Panasonic does not make lithium iron (LFP or LiFePO4) batteries, theirs are Lithium cobalt oxide (LiCoO2). Because RE system commonly have multiple charge sources, I think LiCoO2 is not as suitable due to the poor handling of over voltage events. Lithium iron phosphate (LFP) are far more overcharge tolerant and readily available in high capacity cells. Another problem with using LiCoO2 cells is they require 4.2V/cell to charge making it a difficult fit with common RE equipment. Each manufacturer has recommended charge profiles. It will be difficult to follow these unless the battery is disconnected from loads while charging. For all Lithium batteries, the discharge rate is many times greater than would ever practically be used in a RE system. Most can be discharged at 3C and surge up to 10C. A 20kWh bank could supply 60kW continuously. Don’t try that with your LA battery! Low voltage disconnect is (or should be) built into any LFP battery system as permanent damage can happen instantly. I recently had to repair a LFMP propulsion battery system (not designed by us) that was over discharged one time. It cost $6000 for me to make the repairs and install the protective solenoids. The Battery manufacturer had warnings in their installation manual against not using proper LVD but the builder skipped that part. Magnum Energy has a come out with a CC/CV profile that works well with LFP batteries but it’s still not the needed profile. There are many differences and factors to be addressed for the RE industry. One hurdle to overcome in RE applications is that varying loads are applied while charging. A proper LFP charger will vary the power during the charge cycle but has no way of knowing that loads are present. That creates a real challenge for equipment makers but can be resolved by designing CAN interface and software that communicates with chargers and control CPU’s to make the adjustments on the fly. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Aug 18, 2015, at 8:31 AM, Peter Parrish wrote: I too am interested in LiFeP batteries. I think we need some more information on charge/discharge cycles. I’ve bits and pieces, but there must be some solid data from Panasonic or one of the other LiFeP manufacturers. Such as, Recommended charge cycle Maximum discharge rate Low voltage disconnect Also I expect all of the CC manufacturers are thinking about LiFeP or similar Li technology. Maybe if one of us has a friend at Outback Power, Morningstar, Midnite Solar, we could find out more. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com From marco at pvthawaii.com Tue Aug 18 15:39:49 2015 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 09:39:49 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Iron Phosphate In-Reply-To: <57A7E545-9673-42A5-8073-435E252C6510@starlightsolar.com> References: <019e01d0d933$c51c2560$4f547020$@com> <001e01d0d9c2$9a7cd720$cf768560$@parrish@calsolareng.com> <2AF06175-B7BE-41E0-A6D0-BB691E1AFC62@starlightsolar.com> <00cd01d0d9db$4883b240$d98b16c0$@com> <57A7E545-9673-42A5-8073-435E252C6510@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <003a01d0d9ed$a5de4bf0$f19ae3d0$@com> Yes, it is....or soon will be. I know who’s distributing the line here in Hawaii and am trying to find out what's going for the rest of the U.S. marco Thanks Marco, very impressive product. I like the idea of redundancy per module so if a cell fails, only that one module will shut down. I can build that now with multiple CPU’s with our GBS line but after looking at the EU street price, I can’t match the value. But, I don’t see it available in the US, only in EU. Do you know if it is available for US market? Larry On Aug 18, 2015, at 11:28 AM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: Sony is now producing an impressive LFP battery. Attached is the spec sheet. marco Hello Peter, Panasonic does not make lithium iron (LFP or LiFePO4) batteries, theirs are Lithium cobalt oxide (LiCoO2). Because RE system commonly have multiple charge sources, I think LiCoO2 is not as suitable due to the poor handling of over voltage events. Lithium iron phosphate (LFP) are far more overcharge tolerant and readily available in high capacity cells. Another problem with using LiCoO2 cells is they require 4.2V/cell to charge making it a difficult fit with common RE equipment. Each manufacturer has recommended charge profiles. It will be difficult to follow these unless the battery is disconnected from loads while charging. For all Lithium batteries, the discharge rate is many times greater than would ever practically be used in a RE system. Most can be discharged at 3C and surge up to 10C. A 20kWh bank could supply 60kW continuously. Don’t try that with your LA battery! Low voltage disconnect is (or should be) built into any LFP battery system as permanent damage can happen instantly. I recently had to repair a LFMP propulsion battery system (not designed by us) that was over discharged one time. It cost $6000 for me to make the repairs and install the protective solenoids. The Battery manufacturer had warnings in their installation manual against not using proper LVD but the builder skipped that part. Magnum Energy has a come out with a CC/CV profile that works well with LFP batteries but it’s still not the needed profile. There are many differences and factors to be addressed for the RE industry. One hurdle to overcome in RE applications is that varying loads are applied while charging. A proper LFP charger will vary the power during the charge cycle but has no way of knowing that loads are present. That creates a real challenge for equipment makers but can be resolved by designing CAN interface and software that communicates with chargers and control CPU’s to make the adjustments on the fly. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Aug 18, 2015, at 8:31 AM, Peter Parrish wrote: I too am interested in LiFeP batteries. I think we need some more information on charge/discharge cycles. I’ve bits and pieces, but there must be some solid data from Panasonic or one of the other LiFeP manufacturers. Such as, Recommended charge cycle Maximum discharge rate Low voltage disconnect Also I expect all of the CC manufacturers are thinking about LiFeP or similar Li technology. Maybe if one of us has a friend at Outback Power, Morningstar, Midnite Solar, we could find out more. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 20:05:15 2015 From: jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com (James Rudolph) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 14:05:15 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Name that rail... In-Reply-To: <00df01d0d91f$58fb1d50$0af157f0$@solarwindworks.com> References: <203F796E-B467-48DA-8248-AF732A281207@skyfireenergy.com> <20150815215920.E4A0A1033C@che.dreamhost.com> <55d0eaff.a3e6420a.f8078.ffff9c4cSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <43357C7D-E1B2-4866-A678-88F710255437@millersolar.com> <7AD52FD8-C8E7-4465-9F12-8F150CDD990A@skyfireenergy.com> <00df01d0d91f$58fb1d50$0af157f0$@solarwindworks.com> Message-ID: Aloha Wrenches, While we are on the topic of rails....does anybody have experience with Mage Rack/Rail products? Just wondering about the quality and all since they are made in China. http://www.magerack.com/ On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 9:03 AM, Chris Worcester wrote: > Any time we have the opportunity to head to the warehouse and pick up > rails directly, along with the modules, we make every effort to do so. This > has saved many frustrations in shipping returns and turn arounds. > > > > Chris Worcester > > Solar Wind Works > > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > > Office 530-582-4503 > > Cell 530-448-9692 > > Fax 530-582-4603 > > www.solarwindworks.com > > chris at solarwindworks.com > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Benn Kilburn > *Sent:* Monday, August 17, 2015 8:33 AM > > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Name that rail... > > > > I can't say William. It was only rails, no hardware and besides, we are > not using it. It was delivered to our (out of town) site in error along > with our project's racking which came directly from the manufacturer. > > Funny thing is, these mystery rails are from a different mfgr than the > direct shipped rails we are using. > > > > Side note... 24 of 37 of the mystery rails are badly damaged, while only 5 > of the 33 rails we ordered were damaged. > > Feel free to starts new topic on receiving damaged rails or other > materials. (Our replacement rails are on their way) > > Benn Kilburn > > SkyFire Energy Inc. > > 780-906-7807 > > > > > On Aug 16, 2015, at 2:13 PM, William Miller > wrote: > > Is it a quality product? Solid? Easy to install? > > > > Thanks! > > > On Aug 16, 2015, at 12:40 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: > > Jeeze, I meant Polar racking… > > Their PRR line. > > http://www.polarracking.com/products/prr-2/ > > > > -Glenn > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of *Glenn Burt > *Sent:* Saturday, August 15, 2015 5:59 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Name that rail... > > > > Peak solar? > > Sincerely, > Glenn Burt > Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. > ------------------------------ > > *From: *Benn Kilburn > *Sent: *‎8/‎13/‎2015 17:29 > *To: *RE-wrenches > *Subject: *[RE-wrenches] Name that rail... > > Can anyone identify this rail type? > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- *James B. Rudolph* *Haleakala Solar* *Director of Construction* *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 20:18:55 2015 From: jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com (James Rudolph) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 14:18:55 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] clear sealant recommendations In-Reply-To: <55CAB8E5.9010301@solarray.com> References: <55CAB8E5.9010301@solarray.com> Message-ID: Aloha, We use GeoCell 4500 (Black) daily for years with no problems here in Hawaii ($4.99 a tube). I have also heard that black zips or sealant holds up better in the UV light, and my field experience seems to validate this. On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 5:09 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > I've used Lexel before, it's the best clear caulk I've used. I used it > even to repair cracks on plastic lens on concentrating modules. It holds > its clarity for a long time, however I don't know if its approved for > asphalt shingles. > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 > > On 8/11/2015 12:01 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: > > At recommendation from a roofer couple years ago, we have been using this > product: > http://www.sashco.com/products/lexel/ > > Not used long enough to know if it stands the test of time. > > Kevin > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ]*On Behalf Of *August Goers > *Sent:* August 10, 2015 2:53 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] clear sealant recommendations > > Hi Wrenches, > > > > For the most part we are using Chemlink M1 sealant for to seal our rooftop > penetrations. It hasn’t let us down yet. > > > > M1 is a available in several opaque colors and grey is the most common. > Sometimes we want a good quality clear sealant to put around conduit > fittings, where our conduit enters buildings, etc. We used Geocell 2300 in > the past and I don’t have anything bad to say to it but our current > supplier doesn’t carry Geocell products. More recently we’ve tried Chemlink > Clear sealant but I’ve already seen signs that it doesn’t hold up well in > the elements – it seems to peel off the surface it was installed on and > turn brown relatively fast. > > > > Does anyone have a good multipurpose clear sealant that they like? > > > > Best, > > > > August > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- *James B. Rudolph* *Haleakala Solar* *Director of Construction* *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Aug 21 00:56:57 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 22:56:57 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupled with Generator In-Reply-To: References: <55D23FC2.5050003@solarray.com> Message-ID: <55D6AF99.4070700@solarray.com> Hi Folks; I've done more research on the whole AC coupled issue, and one flaw I found with both the Sunny Island and the Radian is that they can't really do a full 3 stage charge for the batteries in off grid mode. They detect that the batteries are full and disconnect the AC coupled GT inverters, but this is about as subtle as the very early charge controllers, and amounts to 1 stage charging. This is fine for temporary outages, and when the grid comes back, the batteries get a good 3 stage charge. But these folks are really wanting a design that could be taken off grid permanently. Also as you my recall, the GT PV system is Enphase, so we can't use the more sophisticated controls that SMA offers for the Sunny boys. I hate to say it, but I might be back to a diversion load with PWM controller. Not elegant, but we could get 3 stage charging. Every time I look at AC coupled setups, I just want to start over with charge controllers. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 8/17/2015 9:39 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi Ray, > > With that size grid-tied system, you would want to use a battery based > inverter(s) near the (6.7/0.8) 8000W range. > > The frequency shift of the Sunny Islands will work with kicking out > the enphase inverters but you wouldn't get the same output ramping > that it would offer if it was a Sunny Boy grid-tied inverter. The > Sunny Island can effectively solve your generator backfeeding because > there is a reverse current sensor that will disconnect the AC input at > whatever level you want, 50 mA is default I think. You may need to > give the Sunny Island generator start control for this however. > > You can read about it here on page 137. > > http://files.sma.de/dl/15216/SI4548-6048-US-BE-en-21W.pdf > > You'll need to give the Sunny Island a digital signal that tell it > whether its connected to a generator or a grid as outlined in the manual. > > This is where the Radian is nice because it has two AC Input terminals. > > Sounds like an interesting project. > > Good Luck. > > > > > On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 8:36 PM, Jerry Shafer > > wrote: > > I cant see this working well without some battery based inverter > Jerry > > On Aug 17, 2015 10:10 AM, "Ray Walters" > wrote: > > HI Esteemed Wrenches: > > I am consulting on a system I have never seen, that consists > of a 6.7Kw Enphase roof mounted system, and 2 backup > generators. Each generator has an automatic 200 amp transfer > switch to back up its own 200 amp panel. Both 200 amp panels > are fed by a 400 amp service from the grid. > The Enphase PV backfeeds a subpanel in another building which > then is fed by a 2 pole 60 amp breaker in one of the 200 amp > panels. > Currently they are having issues with the generators kicking > out because of the Enphase inverters. That part I understand: > you can't backfeed a generator, or its voltage regulation > freaks out. > > Now we get to the fun part: they want to create a third > critical load subpanel with loads selected from both 200 amp > panels to be powered by batteries and an inverter. > I am considering the Sunny Island since it makes the most > sense with its ability to signal the Enphase inverters to shut > off when the batteries are full. I also see this as a partial > solution to the generator issue, since normally the Enphase > will be connected to the output side of the Sunny Island. > However, when the generator is used to charge, we will be back > to directly coupling the generator output to the Enphase. > > Here are some possible solutions I'm considering: > 1) Use a separate charger for the generator so that it will > only feed DC to the batteries, and not be AC coupled. > 2) convert the PV back to DC with charge controllers, but that > would involve ditching and adding another conduit run between > buildings. > 3) Put the Enphase PV on a relay that would disconnect the PV > when charging with the generator. > 4) Something I haven't thought of that one of you clever folks > can suggest...... > > As always, thanks in advance for all you responses, > > -- > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > * > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > * > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 01:07:01 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 19:07:01 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupled with Generator Message-ID: Wrenches The ability for proper charging has always been an issue way back befor ac coupling was a thing. Its near an uncontrolled charge and if you tank the batteries and shut down that's it no charging from the ac coupling component  Jerry Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Ray Walters
Date:08/20/2015 6:56 PM (GMT-10:00)
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupled with Generator
Hi Folks; I've done more research on the whole AC coupled issue, and one flaw I found with both the Sunny Island and the Radian is that they can't really do a full 3 stage charge for the batteries in off grid mode. They detect that the batteries are full and disconnect the AC coupled GT inverters, but this is about as subtle as the very early charge controllers, and amounts to 1 stage charging. This is fine for temporary outages, and when the grid comes back, the batteries get a good 3 stage charge. But these folks are really wanting a design that could be taken off grid permanently. Also as you my recall, the GT PV system is Enphase, so we can't use the more sophisticated controls that SMA offers for the Sunny boys. I hate to say it, but I might be back to a diversion load with PWM controller. Not elegant, but we could get 3 stage charging. Every time I look at AC coupled setups, I just want to start over with charge controllers. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 8/17/2015 9:39 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: Hi Ray, With that size grid-tied system, you would want to use a battery based inverter(s) near the (6.7/0.8) 8000W range. The frequency shift of the Sunny Islands will work with kicking out the enphase inverters but you wouldn't get the same output ramping that it would offer if it was a Sunny Boy grid-tied inverter. The Sunny Island can effectively solve your generator backfeeding because there is a reverse current sensor that will disconnect the AC input at whatever level you want, 50 mA is default I think. You may need to give the Sunny Island generator start control for this however. You can read about it here on page 137. http://files.sma.de/dl/15216/SI4548-6048-US-BE-en-21W.pdf You'll need to give the Sunny Island a digital signal that tell it whether its connected to a generator or a grid as outlined in the manual. This is where the Radian is nice because it has two AC Input terminals. Sounds like an interesting project. Good Luck. On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 8:36 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: I cant see this working well without some battery based inverter Jerry On Aug 17, 2015 10:10 AM, "Ray Walters" wrote: HI Esteemed Wrenches: I am consulting on a system I have never seen, that consists of a 6.7Kw Enphase roof mounted system, and 2 backup generators. Each generator has an automatic 200 amp transfer switch to back up its own 200 amp panel. Both 200 amp panels are fed by a 400 amp service from the grid. The Enphase PV backfeeds a subpanel in another building which then is fed by a 2 pole 60 amp breaker in one of the 200 amp panels. Currently they are having issues with the generators kicking out because of the Enphase inverters. That part I understand: you can't backfeed a generator, or its voltage regulation freaks out. Now we get to the fun part: they want to create a third critical load subpanel with loads selected from both 200 amp panels to be powered by batteries and an inverter. I am considering the Sunny Island since it makes the most sense with its ability to signal the Enphase inverters to shut off when the batteries are full. I also see this as a partial solution to the generator issue, since normally the Enphase will be connected to the output side of the Sunny Island. However, when the generator is used to charge, we will be back to directly coupling the generator output to the Enphase. Here are some possible solutions I'm considering: 1) Use a separate charger for the generator so that it will only feed DC to the batteries, and not be AC coupled. 2) convert the PV back to DC with charge controllers, but that would involve ditching and adding another conduit run between buildings. 3) Put the Enphase PV on a relay that would disconnect the PV when charging with the generator. 4) Something I haven't thought of that one of you clever folks can suggest...... As always, thanks in advance for all you responses, -- R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Aug 21 00:30:09 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 21:30:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] clear sealant recommendations In-Reply-To: References: <55CAB8E5.9010301@solarray.com> Message-ID: <72BE9403-D646-4FB1-8CAA-5A5B99F58812@millersolar.com> James: How long do your black "zips" hold up? William > On Aug 20, 2015, at 5:18 PM, James Rudolph wrote: > > Aloha, > > We use GeoCell 4500 (Black) daily for years with no problems here in Hawaii ($4.99 a tube). I have also heard that black zips or sealant holds up better in the UV light, and my field experience seems to validate this. > > >> On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 5:09 PM, Ray Walters wrote: >> I've used Lexel before, it's the best clear caulk I've used. I used it even to repair cracks on plastic lens on concentrating modules. It holds its clarity for a long time, however I don't know if its approved for asphalt shingles. >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >>> On 8/11/2015 12:01 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: >>> At recommendation from a roofer couple years ago, we have been using this product: >>> http://www.sashco.com/products/lexel/ >>> >>> Not used long enough to know if it stands the test of time. >>> >>> Kevin >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of August Goers >>> Sent: August 10, 2015 2:53 PM >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] clear sealant recommendations >>> >>> Hi Wrenches, >>> >>> >>> >>> For the most part we are using Chemlink M1 sealant for to seal our rooftop penetrations. It hasn’t let us down yet. >>> >>> >>> >>> M1 is a available in several opaque colors and grey is the most common. Sometimes we want a good quality clear sealant to put around conduit fittings, where our conduit enters buildings, etc. We used Geocell 2300 in the past and I don’t have anything bad to say to it but our current supplier doesn’t carry Geocell products. More recently we’ve tried Chemlink Clear sealant but I’ve already seen signs that it doesn’t hold up well in the elements – it seems to peel off the surface it was installed on and turn brown relatively fast. >>> >>> >>> >>> Does anyone have a good multipurpose clear sealant that they like? >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> >>> >>> August >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > James B. Rudolph > Haleakala Solar > Director of Construction > NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Aug 21 00:39:11 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 21:39:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ground mount for east-west slope Message-ID: Friends: I am looking for a ground mount racking system that can be installed on a 15 degree slope down to the east. I'd like the verticals to be set in concrete or driven vertically with the horizontals to slope at 15 degrees. The racking we have used heretofore has required the horizontal members to be horizontal and perpendicular to the verticals. What I am seeking would allow some adjustment of that angle. Thanks in advance. William From larry at starlightsolar.com Fri Aug 21 09:45:13 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 07:45:13 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupled with Generator In-Reply-To: <55D6AF99.4070700@solarray.com> References: <55D23FC2.5050003@solarray.com> <55D6AF99.4070700@solarray.com> Message-ID: <3C07F25A-BD7D-4967-8AAF-B368A646539C@starlightsolar.com> Ray, I’m curious about what you mean by not doing a 3 stage charge. While PV charging in coupled mode (off grid), the battery will reach your absorption set point. Is this triggering the GT inverters to shut off or does the battery inverter absorb timer run at all? I would think the absorb timer should run until the array current produced is more than being consumed and then the the GT shuts off. Just a wild idea here but if you could calculate the AH needed to reach 100% SoC after the GT inverters shut down, a separate PV array and charge controller would stay online to finish the charge. No wasted energy to dump loads and the customer has more usable power from the system. This may cost more than going to a dump load though. Larry On Aug 20, 2015, at 10:56 PM, Ray Walters wrote: Hi Folks; I've done more research on the whole AC coupled issue, and one flaw I found with both the Sunny Island and the Radian is that they can't really do a full 3 stage charge for the batteries in off grid mode. They detect that the batteries are full and disconnect the AC coupled GT inverters, but this is about as subtle as the very early charge controllers, and amounts to 1 stage charging. This is fine for temporary outages, and when the grid comes back, the batteries get a good 3 stage charge. But these folks are really wanting a design that could be taken off grid permanently. Also as you my recall, the GT PV system is Enphase, so we can't use the more sophisticated controls that SMA offers for the Sunny boys. I hate to say it, but I might be back to a diversion load with PWM controller. Not elegant, but we could get 3 stage charging. Every time I look at AC coupled setups, I just want to start over with charge controllers. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 8/17/2015 9:39 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi Ray, > > With that size grid-tied system, you would want to use a battery based inverter(s) near the (6.7/0.8) 8000W range. > > The frequency shift of the Sunny Islands will work with kicking out the enphase inverters but you wouldn't get the same output ramping that it would offer if it was a Sunny Boy grid-tied inverter. The Sunny Island can effectively solve your generator backfeeding because there is a reverse current sensor that will disconnect the AC input at whatever level you want, 50 mA is default I think. You may need to give the Sunny Island generator start control for this however. > > You can read about it here on page 137. > > http://files.sma.de/dl/15216/SI4548-6048-US-BE-en-21W.pdf > > You'll need to give the Sunny Island a digital signal that tell it whether its connected to a generator or a grid as outlined in the manual. > > This is where the Radian is nice because it has two AC Input terminals. > > Sounds like an interesting project. > > Good Luck. > > > > > On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 8:36 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > I cant see this working well without some battery based inverter > Jerry > > On Aug 17, 2015 10:10 AM, "Ray Walters" > wrote: > HI Esteemed Wrenches: > > I am consulting on a system I have never seen, that consists of a 6.7Kw Enphase roof mounted system, and 2 backup generators. Each generator has an automatic 200 amp transfer switch to back up its own 200 amp panel. Both 200 amp panels are fed by a 400 amp service from the grid. > The Enphase PV backfeeds a subpanel in another building which then is fed by a 2 pole 60 amp breaker in one of the 200 amp panels. > Currently they are having issues with the generators kicking out because of the Enphase inverters. That part I understand: you can't backfeed a generator, or its voltage regulation freaks out. > > Now we get to the fun part: they want to create a third critical load subpanel with loads selected from both 200 amp panels to be powered by batteries and an inverter. > I am considering the Sunny Island since it makes the most sense with its ability to signal the Enphase inverters to shut off when the batteries are full. I also see this as a partial solution to the generator issue, since normally the Enphase will be connected to the output side of the Sunny Island. However, when the generator is used to charge, we will be back to directly coupling the generator output to the Enphase. > > Here are some possible solutions I'm considering: > 1) Use a separate charger for the generator so that it will only feed DC to the batteries, and not be AC coupled. > 2) convert the PV back to DC with charge controllers, but that would involve ditching and adding another conduit run between buildings. > 3) Put the Enphase PV on a relay that would disconnect the PV when charging with the generator. > 4) Something I haven't thought of that one of you clever folks can suggest...... > > As always, thanks in advance for all you responses, > > -- > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Fri Aug 21 09:31:00 2015 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 06:31:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ground mount for east-west slope References: Message-ID: <81774EB812EA439B931722EB640D71A3@D8XG8YH1> We recently did a job like this on a 17 degree slope, if it helps....... Bill Feather River Solar Electric ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Miller" To: "RE-wrenches" Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2015 9:39 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ground mount for east-west slope > Friends: > > I am looking for a ground mount racking system that can be installed on a > 15 degree slope down to the east. I'd like the verticals to be set in > concrete or driven vertically with the horizontals to slope at 15 degrees. > > The racking we have used heretofore has required the horizontal members to > be horizontal and perpendicular to the verticals. What I am seeking would > allow some adjustment of that angle. > > Thanks in advance. > > William > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Feb'15 Earl ballasted ground mount (3).JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 3916616 bytes Desc: not available URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri Aug 21 08:27:15 2015 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 08:27:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupled with Generator In-Reply-To: <55D6AF99.4070700@solarray.com> References: <55D23FC2.5050003@solarray.com> <55D6AF99.4070700@solarray.com> Message-ID: <20150821122732.2CBBF7D8060@homiemail-a58.g.dreamhost.com> I'm considering an AC coupled system with Enphase that would shed inverters a group at a time, ending up with one still charging until the set point is reached. At 12:56 AM 8/21/2015, you wrote: >Hi Folks; > >I've done more research on the whole AC coupled >issue, and one flaw I found with both the Sunny >Island and the Radian is that they can't really >do a full 3 stage charge for the batteries in off grid mode. >They detect that the batteries are full and >disconnect the AC coupled GT inverters, but this >is about as subtle as the very early charge >controllers, and amounts to 1 stage >charging. This is fine for temporary outages, >and when the grid comes back, the batteries get >a good 3 stage charge. But these folks are >really wanting a design that could be taken off >grid permanently. Also as you my recall, the >GT PV system is Enphase, so we can't use the >more sophisticated controls that SMA offers for the Sunny boys. >I hate to say it, but I might be back to a >diversion load with PWM controller. Not >elegant, but we could get 3 stage charging. >Every time I look at AC coupled setups, I just >want to start over with charge controllers. > >R.Ray Walters >CTO, Solarray, Inc >Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >Licensed Master Electrician >Solar Design Engineer >303 505-8760On 8/17/2015 9:39 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: >>Hi Ray, >> >>With that size grid-tied system, you would want >>to use a battery based inverter(s) near the (6.7/0.8) 8000W range. >> >>The frequency shift of the Sunny Islands will >>work with kicking out the enphase inverters but >>you wouldn't get the same output ramping that >>it would offer if it was a Sunny Boy grid-tied >>inverter. The Sunny Island can effectively >>solve your generator backfeeding because there >>is a reverse current sensor that will >>disconnect the AC input at whatever level you >>want, 50 mA is default I think. You may need >>to give the Sunny Island generator start control for this however. >> >>You can read about it here on page 137. >> >>http://files.sma.de/dl/15216/SI4548-6048-US-BE-en-21W.pdf >> >>You'll need to give the Sunny Island a digital >>signal that tell it whether its connected to a >>generator or a grid as outlined in the manual. >> >> This is where the Radian is nice because it has two AC Input terminals. >> >>Sounds like an interesting project. >> >>Good Luck. >> >> >> >> >>On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 8:36 PM, Jerry Shafer >><jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>I cant see this working well without some battery based inverter >>Jerry >>On Aug 17, 2015 10:10 AM, "Ray Walters" >><ray at solarray.com> wrote: >>HI Esteemed Wrenches: >> >>I am consulting on a system I have never seen, >>that consists of a 6.7Kw Enphase roof mounted >>system, and 2 backup generators. Each >>generator has an automatic 200 amp transfer >>switch to back up its own 200 amp panel. Both >>200 amp panels are fed by a 400 amp service from the grid. >>The Enphase PV backfeeds a subpanel in another >>building which then is fed by a 2 pole 60 amp >>breaker in one of the 200 amp panels. >>Currently they are having issues with the >>generators kicking out because of the Enphase >>inverters. That part I understand: you can't >>backfeed a generator, or its voltage regulation freaks out. >> >>Now we get to the fun part: they want to create >>a third critical load subpanel with loads >>selected from both 200 amp panels to be powered by batteries and an inverter. >>I am considering the Sunny Island since it >>makes the most sense with its ability to signal >>the Enphase inverters to shut off when the >>batteries are full. I also see this as a >>partial solution to the generator issue, since >>normally the Enphase will be connected to the >>output side of the Sunny Island. However, when >>the generator is used to charge, we will be >>back to directly coupling the generator output to the Enphase. >> >>Here are some possible solutions I'm considering: >>1) Use a separate charger for the generator so >>that it will only feed DC to the batteries, and not be AC coupled. >>2) convert the PV back to DC with charge >>controllers, but that would involve ditching >>and adding another conduit run between buildings. >>3) Put the Enphase PV on a relay that would >>disconnect the PV when charging with the generator. >>4) Something I haven't thought of that one of >>you clever folks can suggest...... >> >>As always, thanks in advance for all you responses, >> >>-- >>R.Ray Walters >>CTO, Solarray, Inc >>Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >>Licensed Master Electrician >>Solar Design Engineer >>303 505-8760 >> >>_______________________________________________ >>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >>List Address: >>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >>Change listserver email address & settings: >>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >>List-Archive: >>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >>List rules & etiquette: >>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >>Check out or update participant bios: >>www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >>List Address: >>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >>Change listserver email address & settings: >>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >>List-Archive: >>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >>List rules & etiquette: >>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >>Check out or update participant bios: >>www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> >>-- >> >> >> >>Mac Lewis >> >>"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >>List Address: >>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >>Change listserver email address & settings: >>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >>List-Archive: >>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >>List rules & etiquette: >>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >>Check out or update participant bios: >>www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 10:45:48 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 07:45:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupled with Generator In-Reply-To: <20150821122732.2CBBF7D8060@homiemail-a58.g.dreamhost.com> References: <55D23FC2.5050003@solarray.com> <55D6AF99.4070700@solarray.com> <20150821122732.2CBBF7D8060@homiemail-a58.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <50C742A2-F50C-44EE-B493-084956ABCCAA@gmail.com> HI Drake, What sort of multi stage relay control are you using? jay peltz power > On Aug 21, 2015, at 5:27 AM, Drake wrote: > > I'm considering an AC coupled system with Enphase that would shed inverters a group at a time, ending up with one still charging until the set point is reached. > > At 12:56 AM 8/21/2015, you wrote: >> Hi Folks; >> >> I've done more research on the whole AC coupled issue, and one flaw I found with both the Sunny Island and the Radian is that they can't really do a full 3 stage charge for the batteries in off grid mode. >> They detect that the batteries are full and disconnect the AC coupled GT inverters, but this is about as subtle as the very early charge controllers, and amounts to 1 stage charging. This is fine for temporary outages, and when the grid comes back, the batteries get a good 3 stage charge. But these folks are really wanting a design that could be taken off grid permanently. Also as you my recall, the GT PV system is Enphase, so we can't use the more sophisticated controls that SMA offers for the Sunny boys. >> I hate to say it, but I might be back to a diversion load with PWM controller. Not elegant, but we could get 3 stage charging. >> Every time I look at AC coupled setups, I just want to start over with charge controllers. >> >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> On 8/17/2015 9:39 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: >>> Hi Ray, >>> >>> With that size grid-tied system, you would want to use a battery based inverter(s) near the (6.7/0.8) 8000W range. >>> >>> The frequency shift of the Sunny Islands will work with kicking out the enphase inverters but you wouldn't get the same output ramping that it would offer if it was a Sunny Boy grid-tied inverter. The Sunny Island can effectively solve your generator backfeeding because there is a reverse current sensor that will disconnect the AC input at whatever level you want, 50 mA is default I think. You may need to give the Sunny Island generator start control for this however. >>> >>> You can read about it here on page 137. >>> >>> http://files.sma.de/dl/15216/SI4548-6048-US-BE-en-21W.pdf >>> >>> You'll need to give the Sunny Island a digital signal that tell it whether its connected to a generator or a grid as outlined in the manual. >>> >>> This is where the Radian is nice because it has two AC Input terminals. >>> >>> Sounds like an interesting project. >>> >>> Good Luck. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 8:36 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: >>> >>> I cant see this working well without some battery based inverter >>> Jerry >>> On Aug 17, 2015 10:10 AM, "Ray Walters" > wrote: >>> HI Esteemed Wrenches: >>> >>> I am consulting on a system I have never seen, that consists of a 6.7Kw Enphase roof mounted system, and 2 backup generators. Each generator has an automatic 200 amp transfer switch to back up its own 200 amp panel. Both 200 amp panels are fed by a 400 amp service from the grid. >>> The Enphase PV backfeeds a subpanel in another building which then is fed by a 2 pole 60 amp breaker in one of the 200 amp panels. >>> Currently they are having issues with the generators kicking out because of the Enphase inverters. That part I understand: you can't backfeed a generator, or its voltage regulation freaks out. >>> >>> Now we get to the fun part: they want to create a third critical load subpanel with loads selected from both 200 amp panels to be powered by batteries and an inverter. >>> I am considering the Sunny Island since it makes the most sense with its ability to signal the Enphase inverters to shut off when the batteries are full. I also see this as a partial solution to the generator issue, since normally the Enphase will be connected to the output side of the Sunny Island. However, when the generator is used to charge, we will be back to directly coupling the generator output to the Enphase. >>> >>> Here are some possible solutions I'm considering: >>> 1) Use a separate charger for the generator so that it will only feed DC to the batteries, and not be AC coupled. >>> 2) convert the PV back to DC with charge controllers, but that would involve ditching and adding another conduit run between buildings. >>> 3) Put the Enphase PV on a relay that would disconnect the PV when charging with the generator. >>> 4) Something I haven't thought of that one of you clever folks can suggest...... >>> >>> As always, thanks in advance for all you responses, >>> >>> -- >>> R.Ray Walters >>> CTO, Solarray, Inc >>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >>> Licensed Master Electrician >>> Solar Design Engineer >>> 303 505-8760 >>> >>> ______ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 10:56:23 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 07:56:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupled with Generator In-Reply-To: <50C742A2-F50C-44EE-B493-084956ABCCAA@gmail.com> References: <55D23FC2.5050003@solarray.com> <55D6AF99.4070700@solarray.com> <20150821122732.2CBBF7D8060@homiemail-a58.g.dreamhost.com> <50C742A2-F50C-44EE-B493-084956ABCCAA@gmail.com> Message-ID: A question about turning the AC on/off as means of primary on/off control for this AC coupling question. Some time ago I was told that most (all?) inverters don’t like having the AC switched on/off as a means of disconnect. If I understand correctly this causes the DC internal relay to have to switch under load which shortens it life. Under normal life this type of disconnecting is really quite rare ( power failures or manual ) Is this still true? jay peltz power From ray at solarray.com Fri Aug 21 13:28:28 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 11:28:28 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupled with Generator In-Reply-To: <3C07F25A-BD7D-4967-8AAF-B368A646539C@starlightsolar.com> References: <55D23FC2.5050003@solarray.com> <55D6AF99.4070700@solarray.com> <3C07F25A-BD7D-4967-8AAF-B368A646539C@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <55D75FBC.6070809@solarray.com> Hi Larry; I'm actually looking at the secondary DC array strategy you mentioned as well. It's all about those lower charge rates in the absorption and float stages. The DC array could be sized for a charge rate as low as C50 and probably have enough current to get the job done. Meanwhile Enphase is apparently jumping into the battery backup market as well: https://enphase.com/en-us/products-and-services/whats-next Anybody using that equipment or the amazingly promoted Tesla storage? I'm afraid the energy storage market is filling to the brim with Vaporware, while us Wrenches keep soldiering on with decade old methodologies. I've personally weathered several Tsunamis of BS over the years in the solar industry, and I think another one may be upon us: might be time to get to higher ground. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 8/21/2015 7:45 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > Ray, > > I’m curious about what you mean by not doing a 3 stage charge. While > PV charging in coupled mode (off grid), the battery will reach your > absorption set point. Is this triggering the GT inverters to shut off > or does the battery inverter absorb timer run at all? I would think > the absorb timer should run until the array current produced is more > than being consumed and then the the GT shuts off. > > Just a wild idea here but if you could calculate the AH needed to > reach 100% SoC after the GT inverters shut down, a separate PV array > and charge controller would stay online to finish the charge. No > wasted energy to dump loads and the customer has more usable power > from the system. This may cost more than going to a dump load though. > > Larry > > On Aug 20, 2015, at 10:56 PM, Ray Walters > wrote: > > Hi Folks; > > I've done more research on the whole AC coupled issue, and one flaw I > found with both the Sunny Island and the Radian is that they can't > really do a full 3 stage charge for the batteries in off grid mode. > They detect that the batteries are full and disconnect the AC coupled > GT inverters, but this is about as subtle as the very early charge > controllers, and amounts to 1 stage charging. This is fine for > temporary outages, and when the grid comes back, the batteries get a > good 3 stage charge. But these folks are really wanting a design that > could be taken off grid permanently. Also as you my recall, the GT > PV system is Enphase, so we can't use the more sophisticated controls > that SMA offers for the Sunny boys. > I hate to say it, but I might be back to a diversion load with PWM > controller. Not elegant, but we could get 3 stage charging. > Every time I look at AC coupled setups, I just want to start over with > charge controllers. > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > On 8/17/2015 9:39 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: >> Hi Ray, >> >> With that size grid-tied system, you would want to use a battery >> based inverter(s) near the (6.7/0.8) 8000W range. >> >> The frequency shift of the Sunny Islands will work with kicking out >> the enphase inverters but you wouldn't get the same output ramping >> that it would offer if it was a Sunny Boy grid-tied inverter. The >> Sunny Island can effectively solve your generator backfeeding because >> there is a reverse current sensor that will disconnect the AC input >> at whatever level you want, 50 mA is default I think. You may need >> to give the Sunny Island generator start control for this however. >> >> You can read about it here on page 137. >> >> http://files.sma.de/dl/15216/SI4548-6048-US-BE-en-21W.pdf >> >> You'll need to give the Sunny Island a digital signal that tell it >> whether its connected to a generator or a grid as outlined in the >> manual. >> >> This is where the Radian is nice because it has two AC Input terminals. >> >> Sounds like an interesting project. >> >> Good Luck. >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 8:36 PM, Jerry Shafer >> > wrote: >> >> I cant see this working well without some battery based inverter >> Jerry >> >> On Aug 17, 2015 10:10 AM, "Ray Walters" > > wrote: >> >> HI Esteemed Wrenches: >> >> I am consulting on a system I have never seen, that consists >> of a 6.7Kw Enphase roof mounted system, and 2 backup >> generators. Each generator has an automatic 200 amp transfer >> switch to back up its own 200 amp panel. Both 200 amp panels >> are fed by a 400 amp service from the grid. >> The Enphase PV backfeeds a subpanel in another building which >> then is fed by a 2 pole 60 amp breaker in one of the 200 amp >> panels. >> Currently they are having issues with the generators kicking >> out because of the Enphase inverters. That part I >> understand: you can't backfeed a generator, or its voltage >> regulation freaks out. >> >> Now we get to the fun part: they want to create a third >> critical load subpanel with loads selected from both 200 amp >> panels to be powered by batteries and an inverter. >> I am considering the Sunny Island since it makes the most >> sense with its ability to signal the Enphase inverters to >> shut off when the batteries are full. I also see this as a >> partial solution to the generator issue, since normally the >> Enphase will be connected to the output side of the Sunny >> Island. However, when the generator is used to charge, we >> will be back to directly coupling the generator output to the >> Enphase. >> >> Here are some possible solutions I'm considering: >> 1) Use a separate charger for the generator so that it will >> only feed DC to the batteries, and not be AC coupled. >> 2) convert the PV back to DC with charge controllers, but >> that would involve ditching and adding another conduit run >> between buildings. >> 3) Put the Enphase PV on a relay that would disconnect the >> PV when charging with the generator. >> 4) Something I haven't thought of that one of you clever >> folks can suggest...... >> >> As always, thanks in advance for all you responses, >> >> -- >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Aug 21 20:53:48 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 18:53:48 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupled with Generator In-Reply-To: <3C07F25A-BD7D-4967-8AAF-B368A646539C@starlightsolar.com> References: <55D23FC2.5050003@solarray.com> <55D6AF99.4070700@solarray.com> <3C07F25A-BD7D-4967-8AAF-B368A646539C@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <55D7C81C.2070100@solarray.com> Just reading up on Magnum's new AC load diversion controller. It looks like the best option at this point, it provides AC load diversion so you can use AC loads not DC resistors, and it communicates with the inverter, so the system has both 3 stage temp compensated battery charging, and has 2 fail safes, because Magnum inverters can do the frequency shift method to turn off the GT inverters as well. Anyone try this, or have any feed back/ comments? R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 8/21/2015 7:45 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > Ray, > > I’m curious about what you mean by not doing a 3 stage charge. While > PV charging in coupled mode (off grid), the battery will reach your > absorption set point. Is this triggering the GT inverters to shut off > or does the battery inverter absorb timer run at all? I would think > the absorb timer should run until the array current produced is more > than being consumed and then the the GT shuts off. > > Just a wild idea here but if you could calculate the AH needed to > reach 100% SoC after the GT inverters shut down, a separate PV array > and charge controller would stay online to finish the charge. No > wasted energy to dump loads and the customer has more usable power > from the system. This may cost more than going to a dump load though. > > Larry > > On Aug 20, 2015, at 10:56 PM, Ray Walters > wrote: > > Hi Folks; > > I've done more research on the whole AC coupled issue, and one flaw I > found with both the Sunny Island and the Radian is that they can't > really do a full 3 stage charge for the batteries in off grid mode. > They detect that the batteries are full and disconnect the AC coupled > GT inverters, but this is about as subtle as the very early charge > controllers, and amounts to 1 stage charging. This is fine for > temporary outages, and when the grid comes back, the batteries get a > good 3 stage charge. But these folks are really wanting a design that > could be taken off grid permanently. Also as you my recall, the GT > PV system is Enphase, so we can't use the more sophisticated controls > that SMA offers for the Sunny boys. > I hate to say it, but I might be back to a diversion load with PWM > controller. Not elegant, but we could get 3 stage charging. > Every time I look at AC coupled setups, I just want to start over with > charge controllers. > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > On 8/17/2015 9:39 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: >> Hi Ray, >> >> With that size grid-tied system, you would want to use a battery >> based inverter(s) near the (6.7/0.8) 8000W range. >> >> The frequency shift of the Sunny Islands will work with kicking out >> the enphase inverters but you wouldn't get the same output ramping >> that it would offer if it was a Sunny Boy grid-tied inverter. The >> Sunny Island can effectively solve your generator backfeeding because >> there is a reverse current sensor that will disconnect the AC input >> at whatever level you want, 50 mA is default I think. You may need >> to give the Sunny Island generator start control for this however. >> >> You can read about it here on page 137. >> >> http://files.sma.de/dl/15216/SI4548-6048-US-BE-en-21W.pdf >> >> You'll need to give the Sunny Island a digital signal that tell it >> whether its connected to a generator or a grid as outlined in the >> manual. >> >> This is where the Radian is nice because it has two AC Input terminals. >> >> Sounds like an interesting project. >> >> Good Luck. >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 8:36 PM, Jerry Shafer >> > wrote: >> >> I cant see this working well without some battery based inverter >> Jerry >> >> On Aug 17, 2015 10:10 AM, "Ray Walters" > > wrote: >> >> HI Esteemed Wrenches: >> >> I am consulting on a system I have never seen, that consists >> of a 6.7Kw Enphase roof mounted system, and 2 backup >> generators. Each generator has an automatic 200 amp transfer >> switch to back up its own 200 amp panel. Both 200 amp panels >> are fed by a 400 amp service from the grid. >> The Enphase PV backfeeds a subpanel in another building which >> then is fed by a 2 pole 60 amp breaker in one of the 200 amp >> panels. >> Currently they are having issues with the generators kicking >> out because of the Enphase inverters. That part I >> understand: you can't backfeed a generator, or its voltage >> regulation freaks out. >> >> Now we get to the fun part: they want to create a third >> critical load subpanel with loads selected from both 200 amp >> panels to be powered by batteries and an inverter. >> I am considering the Sunny Island since it makes the most >> sense with its ability to signal the Enphase inverters to >> shut off when the batteries are full. I also see this as a >> partial solution to the generator issue, since normally the >> Enphase will be connected to the output side of the Sunny >> Island. However, when the generator is used to charge, we >> will be back to directly coupling the generator output to the >> Enphase. >> >> Here are some possible solutions I'm considering: >> 1) Use a separate charger for the generator so that it will >> only feed DC to the batteries, and not be AC coupled. >> 2) convert the PV back to DC with charge controllers, but >> that would involve ditching and adding another conduit run >> between buildings. >> 3) Put the Enphase PV on a relay that would disconnect the >> PV when charging with the generator. >> 4) Something I haven't thought of that one of you clever >> folks can suggest...... >> >> As always, thanks in advance for all you responses, >> >> -- >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 20:52:24 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 14:52:24 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ground mount for east-west slope Message-ID: <632hs7rdackwa2yqrpm7y547.1440204315504@email.android.com> Wrenches Its been a few years but I have gotten top plates from unirac UL- A racking that was tilited give them a call or even have them fab-ed up your self. Jerry Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: frenergy
Date:08/21/2015 3:31 AM (GMT-10:00)
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground mount for east-west slope
We recently did a job like this on a 17 degree slope, if it helps....... Bill Feather River Solar Electric ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Miller" To: "RE-wrenches" Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2015 9:39 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ground mount for east-west slope > Friends: > > I am looking for a ground mount racking system that can be installed on a > 15 degree slope down to the east. I'd like the verticals to be set in > concrete or driven vertically with the horizontals to slope at 15 degrees. > > The racking we have used heretofore has required the horizontal members to > be horizontal and perpendicular to the verticals. What I am seeking would > allow some adjustment of that angle. > > Thanks in advance. > > William > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 09:47:03 2015 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 09:47:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ground mount for east-west slope In-Reply-To: <632hs7rdackwa2yqrpm7y547.1440204315504@email.android.com> References: <632hs7rdackwa2yqrpm7y547.1440204315504@email.android.com> Message-ID: You can use kee klamp swivel fittings with schedule 40 pipe for posts On Friday, August 21, 2015, jerrysgarage01 wrote: > Wrenches > Its been a few years but I have gotten top plates from unirac UL- A > racking that was tilited give them a call or even have them fab-ed up your > self. > Jerry > > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: frenergy > Date:08/21/2015 3:31 AM (GMT-10:00) > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground mount for east-west slope > > We recently did a job like this on a 17 degree slope, if it helps....... > > Bill > Feather River Solar Electric > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "William Miller" > > To: "RE-wrenches" > > Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2015 9:39 PM > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ground mount for east-west slope > > > > Friends: > > > > I am looking for a ground mount racking system that can be installed on > a > > 15 degree slope down to the east. I'd like the verticals to be set in > > concrete or driven vertically with the horizontals to slope at 15 > degrees. > > > > The racking we have used heretofore has required the horizontal members > to > > be horizontal and perpendicular to the verticals. What I am seeking > would > > allow some adjustment of that angle. > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies 4872 State Route 9G Germantown NY, 12526 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at harvesthesun.com Mon Aug 24 14:42:59 2015 From: eric at harvesthesun.com (eric at harvesthesun.com) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 11:42:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Old or Damaged PV Modules Message-ID: <20150824114259.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.f2bfcf1691.mailapi@email13.secureserver.net> Hello Wrenchers, Our solar non-profit is accepting donations of modules in exchange for a tax deduction off of your taxes. If you have clients wanting to replace old modules, customers wishing to abandon their PV array (for some odd reason), have encountered modules with broken glass or bent frames, we can take them off your hands and give you a tax credit in the amount of the module's retained worth; as determined by you/ the donor. As long as the modules are still producing power, we can find appropriate projects that can utilize them despite their unsavory appearance. Currently we have projects in Rwanda, Ecuador, India, and here in the USA. We donate materials and labor to communities, schools, medical facilities, and tribal nations. Help us help those in need. Don't throw it away, recycle it! Eric Stikes Founding Director Good Sun Solar, A CA non-profit corp. www.goodsun.life (530)798-3738 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at harvesthesun.com Mon Aug 24 15:57:55 2015 From: eric at harvesthesun.com (eric at harvesthesun.com) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 12:57:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Old or Damaged Modules In-Reply-To: <00df01d0de9f$b1e0f220$15a2d660$@solarserviceinc.com> Message-ID: <20150824125755.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.a720585aa1.mailapi@email13.secureserver.net> Yes, we will take modules in pretty much any condition so long as the mods are still producing power. We can try to replace the glass; sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Our process is quite straight-forward: 1. You assemble the equipment decide on a fair-market value. This will be the amount you will be taking for your tax-deduction. 2. We arrange a method to obtain the materials. Local donations can be delivered but for donations from outside of Northern California we will have to arrange freight. In cases involving freight, we may ask you to help us determine the total weight of the shipment. 3. We take possession of materials and furnish a "Charitable Contribution Verification" receipt for your donation. Optional 4. We list you as a donor and supporter of our organization and the specific project to which your donation was applied. 5. We reference and link your company as a partner and sponsor of Good Sun on our website and marketing materials. Notes: Please consult your tax adviser when making donations to public charities. Good Sun Solar works with a focus on energy and water resources, donating labor and equipment for the benefit of poor and underprivileged groups and individuals. Good Sun Solar is a registered California Non-profit corporation and is recognized as a 501(C)(3) Public Charity (PC) under the IRS tax-exempt code. IRS Info: “An individual who itemizes deductions may deduct contributions to most charitable organizations up to 50% of his or her adjusted gross income computed without regard to net operating loss carrybacks.” Documents Required for IRS. Property worth $500 or less: You must justify the deduction with the receipt provided by Good Sun. Property worth more than $500, but not more than $5,000: In addition to the receipt provided by Good Sun, you are required to complete IRS Form 8283, "Non-Cash Charitable Contribution", which contains written records of how the property was acquired and your cost basis if the property was held less than 12 months. You must also have the item appraised and save the certificate of appraisal with the receipt. Appraisals should be done before items are donated and payment of the appraisal is the responsibility of the donor. A single item valued at $5,000 or more, or several similar items donated in a single year whose value totals $5,000 or more: This donation must be appraised before the donation is made, and the appraisal must be obtained by the donor. Good Sun does not perform appraisals on any donations. Garrison, let me know if you would like more info or if you would like to make a donation. If you're looking for a home for the old 2kW Sharps, we have a project ready to go. Thanks! Eric Stikes Founding Director & CEO Good Sun Solar, A CA non-profit corp. www.goodsun.life (530)798-3738 --------- Original Message --------- Subject: Old or Damaged Modules From: "Garrison Riegel" Date: 8/24/15 12:04 pm To: eric at harvesthesun.com Hi Eric, I saw your post on the wrenches forum. To clarify, you take modules with broken glass? We have a handful of those and some other orphans as well. We also recently took down a fully functional 9 year old 2.16kW array of Sharp 180s and an SMA 1800U inverter. Please help me better understand your process, as we would like for this equipment to get into service if possible! Sounds like you guys do great work. Best regards, Garrison Riegel PV Operations Manager | Solar Service Inc [p] 847-677-0950 | garrison at solarserviceinc.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Aug 24 18:47:03 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 15:47:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Need P series end clips for 46 mm Message-ID: Friends: I'm in the middle of a job and discovered I was sold the wrong hardware. I need 16 DPW P6 end clips for 46 mm modules. I'd gladly purchase or replace them. Please contact me off list. Thanks, William From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Aug 24 19:28:59 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 16:28:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider XW battery monitor In-Reply-To: <003a01d0d9ed$a5de4bf0$f19ae3d0$@com> References: <019e01d0d933$c51c2560$4f547020$@com> <001e01d0d9c2$9a7cd720$cf768560$@parrish@calsolareng.com> <2AF06175-B7BE-41E0-A6D0-BB691E1AFC62@starlightsolar.com> <00cd01d0d9db$4883b240$d98b16c0$@com> <57A7E545-9673-42A5-8073-435E252C6510@starlightsolar.com> <003a01d0d9ed$a5de4bf0$f19ae3d0$@com> Message-ID: <1273376B-53CF-4B6E-A3D1-ED65C67EE185@gmail.com> HI All, Does anybody know where to find what version firmware of the SCP/inverter/CC that the XW battery monitor needs to work with? I can’t seem to find that data. thanks jay From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 08:02:11 2015 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 06:02:11 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider XW battery monitor In-Reply-To: <1273376B-53CF-4B6E-A3D1-ED65C67EE185@gmail.com> References: <019e01d0d933$c51c2560$4f547020$@com> <2AF06175-B7BE-41E0-A6D0-BB691E1AFC62@starlightsolar.com> <00cd01d0d9db$4883b240$d98b16c0$@com> <57A7E545-9673-42A5-8073-435E252C6510@starlightsolar.com> <003a01d0d9ed$a5de4bf0$f19ae3d0$@com> <1273376B-53CF-4B6E-A3D1-ED65C67EE185@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay, Here is a partial answer to your question. This is per Schneider Electric tech support a while back but doesn't speak specifically of firmware: "Conext Battery Monitor works with legacy XW in every way except Start SOC%, which is a feature associated with the Auto Gen Start option and the new XW+NA model inverter." I do know that it can act as a stand-alone device if need be, but I think it will integrate with pretty old SCP's. By the way, if you haven't installed these before give yourself some time to do it. There are a lot of connections and it takes time to make it look clean. There is a large bundle of premade sensing connections that need to go into the battery box at various locations. It can end up took like a rats nest. Unfortunately, the prescaler and the battery monitor don't seem to integrate well into the Schneider power distribution panel. We have just wall-mounted the prescaler and used a 6 x 6 pvc box for the battery monitor. It looks to be a feature-rich device, a step up from other battery monitoring devices, but takes quite a bit more time to install. Good Luck On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 5:28 PM, jay wrote: > HI All, > > Does anybody know where to find what version firmware of the > SCP/inverter/CC that the XW battery monitor needs to work with? > I can’t seem to find that data. > > > thanks > jay > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dyoung at dovetailsolar.com Tue Aug 25 17:19:30 2015 From: dyoung at dovetailsolar.com (Daniel Young) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 17:19:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash In-Reply-To: References: <55C4EC1C.1010706@solarray.com> <0dc101d0d13d$967f4dc0$c37de940$@millersolar.com> Message-ID: <013601d0df7b$bb6b3080$32419180$@com> Figured I would dig through the responses to this list topic since I posted it as a poll, of sorts. My final count was: 10 votes to flash, 4 votes not to flash. Those who read all the responses probably know there are a few on either side that would be OK with the other option. I’m still on the flashing side of things, though I might consider letting the client have a choice. If I explain the differences, and show them the $ difference, they can help make the decision (read that as? “take some liability off of me J”). We do that now with US vs non-us made solar modules. It’s not the same type of comparison here, but at least if the client really wants a lower cost, they know how they’re getting it, and future calls from the client should get tempered by the knowledge that they chose the attachment method. Some really good points were raised on this topic, thanks to everyone who participated. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 5:42 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash Although my mind is kinda' made up, this thread has really got me thinking and researching. I scoured the NRCA manual, which does not really define "penetration," but it does say in the shingle manual: "Penetration Flashings: There are many small penetrations that need to be flashed into asphalt shingle roof systems, such as vent pipes, exhaust vents, exhaust fans, furnace or water heater flue pipes, electrical standpipes and others." There is also a graphical figure showing these various penetrations. The one thing these all have in common is that there is a substantial air gap cut fully through the roof plane. It occurred to me that ridge caps and vents on shingle roofs use exposed fasteners to nail or screw them to the decking. The NRCA manual says about this: "Exposed fasteners should be sealed with elastomeric sealant or asphalt roof cement on the last ridge piece of a run, at the intersection of hips to a ridge and at the intersection of a ridge to another plane." Also read the Snow Guard section for metal roofs, which allows attachments sealed to the flat part of the roof pan with sealants. Until the manual specifically addressed the solar "attachments" and "fasteners" we are debating about, it's open to interpretation. On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 5:50 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: http://www.oatey.com/brands/oatey/regions/canada/products/flashings/roof-flashings/retro-master-flash-roof-flashings Well, the manufacturer calls it a flashing, but I agree that were talking semantics here. Flashing, in the code sense, is applied liberally in practice. The washers on the thousands of screws on a 5V metal roof must be flashings, otherwise these roofs do not meet IBC, and would be prohibited, right? Same goes for vents with screwed and sealed boots... Unless you don't call fasteners penetrations, in which case you can't hold solar attachment fasteners to a different standard. There are plenty of metal roof products that are sealed (flashed?) with EPDM gaskets or butyl tape (Sunmodo, Eco-Fasten, S-5, etc.), that are successfully implemented in real world scenarios. There are really two issues here: clarifying what is acceptable from a code perspective, and industry best practices. Martini shaken or stirred? We're probably not going to agree on a single solution as an industry. I have metal flashings on my shingle roof at home - it's my preference, but I don't think it is a requirement, nor do I think "unflashed" fasteners are completely unacceptable. Jason On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 5:11 PM, Kurt Johnsen wrote: Not that the names of things matter that much but imho "flashing" does require an overlapping of some kind. An Oatey boot for a metal roof is more of a bedded fitting than a flashing. It relies entirely on fasteners and a sealing membrane whereas flashings rely mostly on natural forces like gravity. Perhaps an experienced roofer weigh in on this. Kurt Johnsen On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 3:21 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: "If you place a flat object on top of roofing without an uphill material lapping over the downhill object, you are not flashing. " By that logic, an Oatey boot is not a flashing for a plumbing vent on a metal roof. Just sayin'... Jason Szumlanski On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 2:19 PM, William Miller wrote: Ray: I have to respectfully disagree with your semantics. A flashing is an overlapping of roofing materials such that gravity will direct rain and melt water off of the roof. This is a universally accepted waterproofing method that does not depend on any sealant material. The concept is as ancient as the first, crude, thatched roof. If you place a flat object on top of roofing without an uphill material lapping over the downhill object, you are not flashing. What you have described is sealant-dependent weatherproofing. Regardless of the quality of the sealant, or lack thereof, I don’t think you can call it a flashed attachment. (The overarching point is a flashed attachment does not depend on a sealant. Any sealant has a finite lifespan. Removing the sealant variable from the equation results in more lasting installation.) Sincerely, William Miller Gradient Cap_mini Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 10:34 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash My opinion is that if the L foot has enough surface area it constitutes a flashing, and that large flashings can actually cause more damage to the roof than they prevent. I also agree that an attachement doesn't constitute a penetration. I just finished an install on a metal roof with hundreds of screw holes. We added a few more screw holes, and ours have 20 times the sealant surface area. We did run a 1" conduit through the roof, and since it was an actual penetration, we used a very expensive flexible boot flashing. Personally, I think we need about a 3"x3" or 4" x 4" L foot with a double stick butyl tape on the bottom, and all will be well. I realize that the OP was referring to asphalt, but I will flash other roof types that don't do well with L feet ( like shake). _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6086 / Virus Database: 4392/10391 - Release Date: 08/07/15 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com Tue Aug 25 18:12:56 2015 From: Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com (Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 18:12:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider XW battery monitor In-Reply-To: <1273376B-53CF-4B6E-A3D1-ED65C67EE185@gmail.com> References: <019e01d0d933$c51c2560$4f547020$@com> <001e01d0d9c2$9a7cd720$cf768560$@parrish@calsolareng.com> <2AF06175-B7BE-41E0-A6D0-BB691E1AFC62@starlightsolar.com> <00cd01d0d9db$4883b240$d98b16c0$@com> <57A7E545-9673-42A5-8073-435E252C6510@starlightsolar.com> <003a01d0d9ed$a5de4bf0$f19ae3d0$@com> <1273376B-53CF-4B6E-A3D1-ED65C67EE185@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi: The Schneider Battery Monitor, 1. The battery monitor will operate independently and store battery information into a micro-SD card. This info can be accessed by plugging in a USB cord from your laptop to the BM. The data will show up as a new hard drive in your laptop and the files will be in EXCEL format. This can be done with any battery based system, indeed anything with a battery. 2. In order to access the data remotely through the WEB, you will need a COMBOX with Combox firmware rev 3.00 BN 707. A Combox and BM will give you the ability to configure the BM and collect and access battery data log info over the WEB. 3. In order to be able to setup and control the BM with the SCP, System Control Panel, you will need SCP firmware rev 2.01 BN 8 If you're using the BM on Schneider battery based equipment then, 4. For the generator start module, you will need AGS firmware rev 3.00 BN 2 5. For the MPPT-60 charge controller, you will need MPPT-60 firmware rev 1.07 BN 6 6. For the HV-MPPT-80 charge controller, you will need HV-MPPT-80 firmware rev 1.01 BN 1 It's ok to have older firmware in any of the devices, but you will have missing menus and functions such as the state of charge functions on the XW. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalainen at schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: jay To: RE-wrenches , Date: 08/24/2015 09:19 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider XW battery monitor Sent by: "RE-wrenches" HI All, Does anybody know where to find what version firmware of the SCP/inverter/CC that the XW battery monitor needs to work with? I can’t seem to find that data. thanks jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2041 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 20:52:42 2015 From: jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com (James Rudolph) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 14:52:42 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] clear sealant recommendations In-Reply-To: <72BE9403-D646-4FB1-8CAA-5A5B99F58812@millersolar.com> References: <55CAB8E5.9010301@solarray.com> <72BE9403-D646-4FB1-8CAA-5A5B99F58812@millersolar.com> Message-ID: Aloha William, So far 8+ years under the module in the shade, and about 4-5 if there in direct sunlight. On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 6:30 PM, William Miller wrote: > > James: > > How long do your black "zips" hold up? > > William > > > On Aug 20, 2015, at 5:18 PM, James Rudolph > wrote: > > Aloha, > > We use GeoCell 4500 (Black) daily for years with no problems here in > Hawaii ($4.99 a tube). I have also heard that black zips or sealant holds > up better in the UV light, and my field experience seems to validate this. > > > On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 5:09 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > >> I've used Lexel before, it's the best clear caulk I've used. I used it >> even to repair cracks on plastic lens on concentrating modules. It holds >> its clarity for a long time, however I don't know if its approved for >> asphalt shingles. >> >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 >> >> On 8/11/2015 12:01 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: >> >> At recommendation from a roofer couple years ago, we have been using this >> product: >> http://www.sashco.com/products/lexel/ >> >> Not used long enough to know if it stands the test of time. >> >> Kevin >> >> -----Original Message----- >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >> ]*On Behalf Of *August Goers >> *Sent:* August 10, 2015 2:53 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] clear sealant recommendations >> >> Hi Wrenches, >> >> >> >> For the most part we are using Chemlink M1 sealant for to seal our >> rooftop penetrations. It hasn’t let us down yet. >> >> >> >> M1 is a available in several opaque colors and grey is the most common. >> Sometimes we want a good quality clear sealant to put around conduit >> fittings, where our conduit enters buildings, etc. We used Geocell 2300 in >> the past and I don’t have anything bad to say to it but our current >> supplier doesn’t carry Geocell products. More recently we’ve tried Chemlink >> Clear sealant but I’ve already seen signs that it doesn’t hold up well in >> the elements – it seems to peel off the surface it was installed on and >> turn brown relatively fast. >> >> >> >> Does anyone have a good multipurpose clear sealant that they like? >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> >> >> August >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > > *James B. Rudolph* > *Haleakala Solar* > *Director of Construction* > > *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155* > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- *James B. Rudolph* *Haleakala Solar* *Director of Construction* *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Tue Aug 25 21:36:52 2015 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 18:36:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash References: <55C4EC1C.1010706@solarray.com> <0dc101d0d13d$967f4dc0$c37de940$@millersolar.com> <013601d0df7b$bb6b3080$32419180$@com> Message-ID: I've dancing around the perimeter of this discussion but now wish to make that one more not to flash. There are many ways to do any job. I have been attaching things to roofs and cutting holes in roofs for a couple trades for 38 years and have yet to discover (or have a customer discover and contact me) any damage from water. When attaching feet to a roof for a PV rail system, I do not flash...I have but can't justify the time and cost for my perceived lack of benefit. When I cut a hole in a roof, I flash. I think its all about the correct caulking for the particular kind of roofing material (one type does not fit all), proper preparation of the attachment location, insuring there is plenty of wood for the fastener, laying a liberal bead and proper torque of the fastener. $.02 Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 / 6544 fax solar powered since 1982 From: Daniel Young To: 'RE-wrenches' Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 2:19 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash Figured I would dig through the responses to this list topic since I posted it as a poll, of sorts. My final count was: 10 votes to flash, 4 votes not to flash. Those who read all the responses probably know there are a few on either side that would be OK with the other option. I’m still on the flashing side of things, though I might consider letting the client have a choice. If I explain the differences, and show them the $ difference, they can help make the decision (read that as? “take some liability off of me J”). We do that now with US vs non-us made solar modules. It’s not the same type of comparison here, but at least if the client really wants a lower cost, they know how they’re getting it, and future calls from the client should get tempered by the knowledge that they chose the attachment method. Some really good points were raised on this topic, thanks to everyone who participated. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 5:42 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash Although my mind is kinda' made up, this thread has really got me thinking and researching. I scoured the NRCA manual, which does not really define "penetration," but it does say in the shingle manual: "Penetration Flashings: There are many small penetrations that need to be flashed into asphalt shingle roof systems, such as vent pipes, exhaust vents, exhaust fans, furnace or water heater flue pipes, electrical standpipes and others." There is also a graphical figure showing these various penetrations. The one thing these all have in common is that there is a substantial air gap cut fully through the roof plane. It occurred to me that ridge caps and vents on shingle roofs use exposed fasteners to nail or screw them to the decking. The NRCA manual says about this: "Exposed fasteners should be sealed with elastomeric sealant or asphalt roof cement on the last ridge piece of a run, at the intersection of hips to a ridge and at the intersection of a ridge to another plane." Also read the Snow Guard section for metal roofs, which allows attachments sealed to the flat part of the roof pan with sealants. Until the manual specifically addressed the solar "attachments" and "fasteners" we are debating about, it's open to interpretation. On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 5:50 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: http://www.oatey.com/brands/oatey/regions/canada/products/flashings/roof-flashings/retro-master-flash-roof-flashings Well, the manufacturer calls it a flashing, but I agree that were talking semantics here. Flashing, in the code sense, is applied liberally in practice. The washers on the thousands of screws on a 5V metal roof must be flashings, otherwise these roofs do not meet IBC, and would be prohibited, right? Same goes for vents with screwed and sealed boots... Unless you don't call fasteners penetrations, in which case you can't hold solar attachment fasteners to a different standard. There are plenty of metal roof products that are sealed (flashed?) with EPDM gaskets or butyl tape (Sunmodo, Eco-Fasten, S-5, etc.), that are successfully implemented in real world scenarios. There are really two issues here: clarifying what is acceptable from a code perspective, and industry best practices. Martini shaken or stirred? We're probably not going to agree on a single solution as an industry. I have metal flashings on my shingle roof at home - it's my preference, but I don't think it is a requirement, nor do I think "unflashed" fasteners are completely unacceptable. Jason On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 5:11 PM, Kurt Johnsen wrote: Not that the names of things matter that much but imho "flashing" does require an overlapping of some kind. An Oatey boot for a metal roof is more of a bedded fitting than a flashing. It relies entirely on fasteners and a sealing membrane whereas flashings rely mostly on natural forces like gravity. Perhaps an experienced roofer weigh in on this. Kurt Johnsen On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 3:21 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: "If you place a flat object on top of roofing without an uphill material lapping over the downhill object, you are not flashing. " By that logic, an Oatey boot is not a flashing for a plumbing vent on a metal roof. Just sayin'... Jason Szumlanski On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 2:19 PM, William Miller wrote: Ray: I have to respectfully disagree with your semantics. A flashing is an overlapping of roofing materials such that gravity will direct rain and melt water off of the roof. This is a universally accepted waterproofing method that does not depend on any sealant material. The concept is as ancient as the first, crude, thatched roof. If you place a flat object on top of roofing without an uphill material lapping over the downhill object, you are not flashing. What you have described is sealant-dependent weatherproofing. Regardless of the quality of the sealant, or lack thereof, I don’t think you can call it a flashed attachment. (The overarching point is a flashed attachment does not depend on a sealant. Any sealant has a finite lifespan. Removing the sealant variable from the equation results in more lasting installation.) Sincerely, William Miller Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 10:34 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash My opinion is that if the L foot has enough surface area it constitutes a flashing, and that large flashings can actually cause more damage to the roof than they prevent. I also agree that an attachement doesn't constitute a penetration. I just finished an install on a metal roof with hundreds of screw holes. We added a few more screw holes, and ours have 20 times the sealant surface area. We did run a 1" conduit through the roof, and since it was an actual penetration, we used a very expensive flexible boot flashing. Personally, I think we need about a 3"x3" or 4" x 4" L foot with a double stick butyl tape on the bottom, and all will be well. I realize that the OP was referring to asphalt, but I will flash other roof types that don't do well with L feet ( like shake). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6086 / Virus Database: 4392/10391 - Release Date: 08/07/15 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at westcoastsustainables.com Wed Aug 26 00:59:39 2015 From: jason at westcoastsustainables.com (Jason Andrade) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 21:59:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Subject: Re: to flash or not to flash Message-ID: <000001d0dfbc$07f448c0$17dcda40$@westcoastsustainables.com> I wouldn't install a comp roof system without the flashings myself, I am in Northern California and the extreme weather both heat and cold are murder on roofing. Jason West Coast Sustainables Jason Andrade C-46# 974647 (530) 410-4745 Cell (530) 241-7498 Office (530) 348-5301 Fax Jason at westcoastsustainables.com -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 6:42 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 8, Issue 294 Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org You can reach the person managing the list at re-wrenches-owner at lists.re-wrenches.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines from the quoted message. Today's Topics: 1. Re: to flash or not to flash (Daniel Young) 2. Re: Schneider XW battery monitor (Jarmo.Venalainen at schneider-electric.com) 3. Re: clear sealant recommendations (James Rudolph) 4. Re: to flash or not to flash (frenergy) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 17:19:30 -0400 From: "Daniel Young" To: "'RE-wrenches'" Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash Message-ID: <013601d0df7b$bb6b3080$32419180$@com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Figured I would dig through the responses to this list topic since I posted it as a poll, of sorts. My final count was: 10 votes to flash, 4 votes not to flash. Those who read all the responses probably know there are a few on either side that would be OK with the other option. I?m still on the flashing side of things, though I might consider letting the client have a choice. If I explain the differences, and show them the $ difference, they can help make the decision (read that as? ?take some liability off of me J?). We do that now with US vs non-us made solar modules. It?s not the same type of comparison here, but at least if the client really wants a lower cost, they know how they?re getting it, and future calls from the client should get tempered by the knowledge that they chose the attachment method. Some really good points were raised on this topic, thanks to everyone who participated. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 5:42 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash Although my mind is kinda' made up, this thread has really got me thinking and researching. I scoured the NRCA manual, which does not really define "penetration," but it does say in the shingle manual: "Penetration Flashings: There are many small penetrations that need to be flashed into asphalt shingle roof systems, such as vent pipes, exhaust vents, exhaust fans, furnace or water heater flue pipes, electrical standpipes and others." There is also a graphical figure showing these various penetrations. The one thing these all have in common is that there is a substantial air gap cut fully through the roof plane. It occurred to me that ridge caps and vents on shingle roofs use exposed fasteners to nail or screw them to the decking. The NRCA manual says about this: "Exposed fasteners should be sealed with elastomeric sealant or asphalt roof cement on the last ridge piece of a run, at the intersection of hips to a ridge and at the intersection of a ridge to another plane." Also read the Snow Guard section for metal roofs, which allows attachments sealed to the flat part of the roof pan with sealants. Until the manual specifically addressed the solar "attachments" and "fasteners" we are debating about, it's open to interpretation. From maclewis1 at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 01:18:05 2015 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 23:18:05 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Control board Kohler 14 RES Message-ID: Hello wrenches, I've got an issue I'd like to put out there and see if anyone has heard of this before I call BS on a generator tech. We we're upgrading an off-grid site from series stacked stacked Trace 4024 to parallel stacked Magnum 4448 PAE inverters, changing battery bank, adding solar, auto gen start, battery monitor etc. When we arrived, the generator, a Kohler 14 RES was not functioning. It was blowing the crank fuse when you'd try to start it. We left it alone because it wasn't in our scope of work to get it going. The customer had a hard time getting good service on that generator and spent way too much money (25% more than MSRP on a new one) getting this generator fixed. It was pulled out 3 times and worked on by two different generator companies before it was fixed. The owner now says that the second generator tech told him that he had to "add a board that keeps the inverters from back-feeding the generator". He also said that "new inverters do this more than the old ones". Obviously, the owner thinks that we should have known about this. I think its an outright lie by the generator tech to cover his misdiagnosis, but I'd like to hear from others if such a board exists. Anyone heard of or had a problem with this generator? We are Kohler certified technicians and this "board" is news to us. Thanks -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Wed Aug 26 01:31:52 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 23:31:52 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Control board Kohler 14 RES In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Magnum Energy inverters have no capability to send current to the grid (generator) through their inputs. Sounds like BS to me. What is this mystery board that blocks AC current one way? Larry On Aug 25, 2015, at 11:18 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: Hello wrenches, I've got an issue I'd like to put out there and see if anyone has heard of this before I call BS on a generator tech. We we're upgrading an off-grid site from series stacked stacked Trace 4024 to parallel stacked Magnum 4448 PAE inverters, changing battery bank, adding solar, auto gen start, battery monitor etc. When we arrived, the generator, a Kohler 14 RES was not functioning. It was blowing the crank fuse when you'd try to start it. We left it alone because it wasn't in our scope of work to get it going. The customer had a hard time getting good service on that generator and spent way too much money (25% more than MSRP on a new one) getting this generator fixed. It was pulled out 3 times and worked on by two different generator companies before it was fixed. The owner now says that the second generator tech told him that he had to "add a board that keeps the inverters from back-feeding the generator". He also said that "new inverters do this more than the old ones". Obviously, the owner thinks that we should have known about this. I think its an outright lie by the generator tech to cover his misdiagnosis, but I'd like to hear from others if such a board exists. Anyone heard of or had a problem with this generator? We are Kohler certified technicians and this "board" is news to us. Thanks -- Mac Lewis -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Wed Aug 26 01:35:15 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 22:35:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Control board Kohler 14 RES In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55DD5013.8040401@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Wed Aug 26 01:39:36 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 22:39:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Control board Kohler 14 RES In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55DD5118.8030308@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Aug 26 00:50:34 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 21:50:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] clear sealant recommendations In-Reply-To: References: <55CAB8E5.9010301@solarray.com> <72BE9403-D646-4FB1-8CAA-5A5B99F58812@millersolar.com> Message-ID: <0192285E-7852-4416-A0EC-4F02725574A8@millersolar.com> James: Thanks for getting back to me. I think the Navy did a study on the longevity of zip ties. I will look for it and share it. 4-5 or 8 years is beyond most installation warranty periods, so we contractors are not liable. Good news! 4-5 or 8 years is far short, however, of any module warranty period. This leaves the awkward question: What does one do with a perfectly good PV array with the wiring falling down? And another question: Do unsecured high voltage PV leads pose a danger? These are rhetorical questions. Please don't feel they require an answer. Aloha. William > On Aug 25, 2015, at 5:52 PM, James Rudolph wrote: > > Aloha William, > So far 8+ years under the module in the shade, and about 4-5 if there in direct sunlight. > > >> On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 6:30 PM, William Miller wrote: >> >> James: >> >> How long do your black "zips" hold up? >> >> William >> >> >>> On Aug 20, 2015, at 5:18 PM, James Rudolph wrote: >>> >>> Aloha, >>> >>> We use GeoCell 4500 (Black) daily for years with no problems here in Hawaii ($4.99 a tube). I have also heard that black zips or sealant holds up better in the UV light, and my field experience seems to validate this. >>> >>> >>>> On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 5:09 PM, Ray Walters wrote: >>>> I've used Lexel before, it's the best clear caulk I've used. I used it even to repair cracks on plastic lens on concentrating modules. It holds its clarity for a long time, however I don't know if its approved for asphalt shingles. >>>> R.Ray Walters >>>> CTO, Solarray, Inc >>>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >>>> Licensed Master Electrician >>>> Solar Design Engineer >>>> 303 505-8760 >>>>> On 8/11/2015 12:01 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: >>>>> At recommendation from a roofer couple years ago, we have been using this product: >>>>> http://www.sashco.com/products/lexel/ >>>>> >>>>> Not used long enough to know if it stands the test of time. >>>>> >>>>> Kevin >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of August Goers >>>>> Sent: August 10, 2015 2:53 PM >>>>> To: RE-wrenches >>>>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] clear sealant recommendations >>>>> >>>>> Hi Wrenches, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> For the most part we are using Chemlink M1 sealant for to seal our rooftop penetrations. It hasn’t let us down yet. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> M1 is a available in several opaque colors and grey is the most common. Sometimes we want a good quality clear sealant to put around conduit fittings, where our conduit enters buildings, etc. We used Geocell 2300 in the past and I don’t have anything bad to say to it but our current supplier doesn’t carry Geocell products. More recently we’ve tried Chemlink Clear sealant but I’ve already seen signs that it doesn’t hold up well in the elements – it seems to peel off the surface it was installed on and turn brown relatively fast. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Does anyone have a good multipurpose clear sealant that they like? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> August >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> James B. Rudolph >>> Haleakala Solar >>> Director of Construction >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > James B. Rudolph > Haleakala Solar > Director of Construction > NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 10:44:22 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 07:44:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash In-Reply-To: <000001d0dfbc$07f448c0$17dcda40$@westcoastsustainables.com> References: <000001d0dfbc$07f448c0$17dcda40$@westcoastsustainables.com> Message-ID: <46175C88-2BF1-4D83-868A-D35D3223AC6F@gmail.com> Didn’t know there was a pole. I”m on the flash side. Question for those who don’t. How would your insurance claim work if you didn’t flash? jay peltz power > On Aug 25, 2015, at 9:59 PM, Jason Andrade wrote: > > I wouldn't install a comp roof system without the flashings myself, I am in > Northern California and the extreme weather both heat and cold are murder on > roofing. > > Jason > > West Coast Sustainables > Jason Andrade > C-46# 974647 > (530) 410-4745 Cell > (530) 241-7498 Office > (530) 348-5301 Fax > Jason at westcoastsustainables.com From kelly at whidbeysunwind.com Wed Aug 26 12:20:36 2015 From: kelly at whidbeysunwind.com (Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 09:20:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash In-Reply-To: <46175C88-2BF1-4D83-868A-D35D3223AC6F@gmail.com> References: <000001d0dfbc$07f448c0$17dcda40$@westcoastsustainables.com> <46175C88-2BF1-4D83-868A-D35D3223AC6F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <16AE9F77-6A21-45AA-9429-0C15F03910DF@whidbeysunwind.com> Hi All, In the early days with PV and SWH we didn’t use flashings for most roofs (except tile). We used L-feet directly to the roofing with butyl (comp) or EPDM (metal) and pre-filled our holes and covered the attachments with good goop. We've never had a leak reported from this practice. And, here in western Washington State, it does get tested. We changed methods about 10 years ago deciding it would be good practice - both legally and professionally - to follow roofing industry guidelines that prescribe (if you consider attachments “penetrations”) the use of flashings. This spring we had our first leak, from a 2-year old system, on a 4:12 comp roof, with flashed L-feet. The leak occurred through a roofing nail hole that our installers had pulled but didn’t quite get covered up by the flashing or sealant. Even though the hole was still “shingled” by 2 layers of overlapping comp, the concentrated storm runoff from the module edges overwhelmed the ability of the shingles to shed the water. We fixed the problem, reroofing the section and fixing the damage to the ceiling, but not to our reputation and pride. Even though this issue was caused by a combination of procedural error and specific geometry, it’s easy to imagine this could happen again. Installers moving fast on roofs and not being able to see exactly where those nails they are pulling are coming from. And, when it’s cold out older comp shingles can crack when trying to get the nails out. If “best practices” for our industry could be established/recognized that prescribed our former methodology with L-feet, I would be happy to return to it (customers would also get lower costs). As of now, however, “best practices” for us mean following the roofing industry standards. -Kelly Kelly Keilwitz, P.E. Principal Whidbey Sun & Wind Renewable Energy Systems NABCEP PV Installation Professional WA Electrical Administrator kelly at whidbeysunwind.com PH & FAX: 360.678.7131 On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:44, jay wrote: > Didn’t know there was a pole. > I”m on the flash side. > > Question for those who don’t. > How would your insurance claim work if you didn’t flash? > > jay > > peltz power > > >> On Aug 25, 2015, at 9:59 PM, Jason Andrade wrote: >> >> I wouldn't install a comp roof system without the flashings myself, I am in >> Northern California and the extreme weather both heat and cold are murder on >> roofing. >> >> Jason >> >> West Coast Sustainables >> Jason Andrade >> C-46# 974647 >> (530) 410-4745 Cell >> (530) 241-7498 Office >> (530) 348-5301 Fax >> Jason at westcoastsustainables.com > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 12:17:04 2015 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (Mike Nelson) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 09:17:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash In-Reply-To: <46175C88-2BF1-4D83-868A-D35D3223AC6F@gmail.com> References: <000001d0dfbc$07f448c0$17dcda40$@westcoastsustainables.com> <46175C88-2BF1-4D83-868A-D35D3223AC6F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Definitely flash, didn't do it one time, and it bit me. Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:44 AM, jay wrote: > > Didn’t know there was a pole. > I”m on the flash side. > > Question for those who don’t. > How would your insurance claim work if you didn’t flash? > > jay > > peltz power > > >> On Aug 25, 2015, at 9:59 PM, Jason Andrade wrote: >> >> I wouldn't install a comp roof system without the flashings myself, I am in >> Northern California and the extreme weather both heat and cold are murder on >> roofing. >> >> Jason >> >> West Coast Sustainables >> Jason Andrade >> C-46# 974647 >> (530) 410-4745 Cell >> (530) 241-7498 Office >> (530) 348-5301 Fax >> Jason at westcoastsustainables.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From ray at solarray.com Wed Aug 26 12:57:00 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 10:57:00 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] clear sealant recommendations In-Reply-To: <0192285E-7852-4416-A0EC-4F02725574A8@millersolar.com> References: <55CAB8E5.9010301@solarray.com> <72BE9403-D646-4FB1-8CAA-5A5B99F58812@millersolar.com> <0192285E-7852-4416-A0EC-4F02725574A8@millersolar.com> Message-ID: <55DDEFDC.8050109@solarray.com> Hi William; Based on your rhetorical question and many zip tie failures, I try to run the wiring over the framing so that a zip tie failure doesn't just leave 10 ft of wiring dangling, I also throw in insulated SS wire clamps in too. We then just use zips to make it tidy. My thinking is when the zips fail, it won't look as good, but it won't be a total hazard either. Still waiting for a better wire management product...... R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 8/25/2015 10:50 PM, William Miller wrote: > James: > > Thanks for getting back to me. I think the Navy did a study on the > longevity of zip ties. I will look for it and share it. > > 4-5 or 8 years is beyond most installation warranty periods, so we > contractors are not liable. Good news! > > 4-5 or 8 years is far short, however, of any module warranty period. > This leaves the awkward question: What does one do with a perfectly > good PV array with the wiring falling down? And another question: Do > unsecured high voltage PV leads pose a danger? > > These are rhetorical questions. Please don't feel they require an answer. > > Aloha. > > William > > > > On Aug 25, 2015, at 5:52 PM, James Rudolph > wrote: > >> Aloha William, >> So far 8+ years under the module in the shade, and about 4-5 if there >> in direct sunlight. >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 6:30 PM, William Miller >> > wrote: >> >> >> James: >> >> How long do your black "zips" hold up? >> >> William >> >> >> On Aug 20, 2015, at 5:18 PM, James Rudolph >> > wrote: >> >>> Aloha, >>> >>> We use GeoCell 4500 (Black) daily for years with no problems >>> here in Hawaii ($4.99 a tube). I have also heard that black zips >>> or sealant holds up better in the UV light, and my field >>> experience seems to validate this. >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 5:09 PM, Ray Walters >> > wrote: >>> >>> I've used Lexel before, it's the best clear caulk I've >>> used. I used it even to repair cracks on plastic lens on >>> concentrating modules. It holds its clarity for a long >>> time, however I don't know if its approved for asphalt >>> shingles. >>> >>> R.Ray Walters >>> CTO, Solarray, Inc >>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >>> Licensed Master Electrician >>> Solar Design Engineer >>> 303 505-8760 >>> >>> On 8/11/2015 12:01 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: >>>> At recommendation from a roofer couple years ago, we have >>>> been using this product: >>>> http://www.sashco.com/products/lexel/ >>>> Not used long enough to know if it stands the test of time. >>>> Kevin >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> *From:* RE-wrenches >>>> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]*On >>>> Behalf Of *August Goers >>>> *Sent:* August 10, 2015 2:53 PM >>>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] clear sealant recommendations >>>> >>>> Hi Wrenches, >>>> >>>> For the most part we are using Chemlink M1 sealant for >>>> to seal our rooftop penetrations. It hasn’t let us down >>>> yet. >>>> >>>> M1 is a available in several opaque colors and grey is >>>> the most common. Sometimes we want a good quality clear >>>> sealant to put around conduit fittings, where our >>>> conduit enters buildings, etc. We used Geocell 2300 in >>>> the past and I don’t have anything bad to say to it but >>>> our current supplier doesn’t carry Geocell products. >>>> More recently we’ve tried Chemlink Clear sealant but >>>> I’ve already seen signs that it doesn’t hold up well in >>>> the elements – it seems to peel off the surface it was >>>> installed on and turn brown relatively fast. >>>> >>>> Does anyone have a good multipurpose clear sealant that >>>> they like? >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> August >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> * >>> James B. Rudolph* >>> *Haleakala Solar* * >>> * >>> *Director of Construction* >>> *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155 >>> * >>> * >>> * >>> * >>> * >>> >>> * >>> * >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> * >> James B. Rudolph* >> *Haleakala Solar* * >> * >> *Director of Construction* >> *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155 >> * >> * >> * >> * >> * >> >> * >> * >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Aug 26 13:15:43 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 11:15:43 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash In-Reply-To: <16AE9F77-6A21-45AA-9429-0C15F03910DF@whidbeysunwind.com> References: <000001d0dfbc$07f448c0$17dcda40$@westcoastsustainables.com> <46175C88-2BF1-4D83-868A-D35D3223AC6F@gmail.com> <16AE9F77-6A21-45AA-9429-0C15F03910DF@whidbeysunwind.com> Message-ID: <55DDF43F.8030005@solarray.com> That was exactly the failure I anticipated when using flashings. Tearing=20 up the shingle to shingle adhesive and pulling those nails out is more=20 disruptive than the actual attachment itself. I'm going to flash on an=20 upcoming job for legal/ insurance reasons, but not because its better. I too have projects pushing 20 years, and we have never had a leak. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 8/26/2015 10:20 AM, Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind wrote: > Hi All, > In the early days with PV and SWH we didn=E2=80=99t use flashings for mos= t=20 > roofs (except tile). We used L-feet directly to the roofing with butyl=20 > (comp) or EPDM (metal) and pre-filled our holes and covered the=20 > attachments with good goop. We've never had a leak reported from this=20 > practice. And, here in western Washington State, it does get tested. > We changed methods about 10 years ago deciding it would be good=20 > practice - both legally and professionally - to follow roofing=20 > industry guidelines that prescribe (if you consider attachments=20 > =E2=80=9Cpenetrations=E2=80=9D) the use of flashings. > > This spring we had our first leak, from a 2-year old system, on a 4:12=20 > comp roof, with flashed L-feet. The leak occurred through a roofing=20 > nail hole that our installers had pulled but didn=E2=80=99t quite get cov= ered=20 > up by the flashing or sealant. Even though the hole was still=20 > =E2=80=9Cshingled=E2=80=9D by 2 layers of overlapping comp, the concentra= ted storm=20 > runoff from the module edges overwhelmed the ability of the shingles=20 > to shed the water. We fixed the problem, reroofing the section and=20 > fixing the damage to the ceiling, but not to our reputation and pride. > Even though this issue was caused by a combination of procedural error=20 > and specific geometry, it=E2=80=99s easy to imagine this could happen aga= in.=20 > Installers moving fast on roofs and not being able to see exactly=20 > where those nails they are pulling are coming from. And, when it=E2=80=99= s=20 > cold out older comp shingles can crack when trying to get the nails out. > > If =E2=80=9Cbest practices=E2=80=9D for our industry could be established= /recognized=20 > that prescribed our former methodology with L-feet, I would be happy=20 > to return to it (customers would also get lower costs). As of now,=20 > however, =E2=80=9Cbest practices=E2=80=9D for us mean following the roofi= ng industry=20 > standards. > > -Kelly > Kelly Keilwitz, P.E. > Principal > Whidbey Sun & Wind > Renewable Energy Systems > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > WA Electrical Administrator > kelly at whidbeysunwind.com > PH & FAX: 360.678.7131 > > > > On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:44, jay > wrote: > >> Didn=E2=80=99t know there was a pole. >> I=E2=80=9Dm on the flash side. >> >> Question for those who don=E2=80=99t. >> How would your insurance claim work if you didn=E2=80=99t flash? >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> >> >>> On Aug 25, 2015, at 9:59 PM, Jason Andrade=20 >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> I wouldn't install a comp roof system without the flashings myself,=20 >>> I am in >>> Northern California and the extreme weather both heat and cold are=20 >>> murder on >>> roofing. >>> >>> Jason >>> >>> West Coast Sustainables >>> Jason Andrade >>> C-46# 974647 >>> (530) 410-4745 Cell >>> (530) 241-7498 Office >>> (530) 348-5301 Fax >>> Jason at westcoastsustainables.com >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Aug 26 15:39:57 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 13:39:57 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Battery Systems Message-ID: <55DE160D.7060109@solarray.com> Hi Wrenches; I have an upcoming project to be inspected, ,and having spent too much time on off grid and out of country work, I'm now playing catch up with the new 690.12 and 690.71(H) requirements. The proposed GTB system is 3 Radians with a ground mounted 18kW array and large HUP battery bank. I just read a Bill Brooks article that basically says that Rapid Shutdown not only applies to ground mounted arrays that come into buildings, but also applies to battery cables if longer than 5 ft. There are 690.12 compliant combiners from Midnite that work with their Birdhouse system, so I think I've got a handle on the array requirements (more or less). What is stumping me is how to feed three 8kW inverters from a large battery, and install auto disconnect breakers within 5 ft. 1) the disconnect has to be large enough, Midnite only makes a 250 amp remote trip breaker, so I'd have to parallel 3 of these? 2) 690.71(H)3 says the breaker can't be in the battery enclosure, which is tricky since the enclosure is 160" long from one end to the other with 2 parallel strings. 3) I'm having trouble even finding an enclosure for 3 large DC breakers (Flex 1000 is the only thing I know of) and to get the enclosure close enough is an issue too. I just got off the phone with Tech support at Outback and they don't seem to have any Rapid Shutdown gear ready. Are inspectors actually requiring this yet, or because of the lack of available UL listed products, can we take a pass on at least some of the requirements? Another strategy the Outback tech thought of is to put all the equipment into a shipping container and then its not in or on a "building", and 690.12 doesn't apply. -- R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 From max at seesolar.com Wed Aug 26 15:52:39 2015 From: max at seesolar.com (max at seesolar.com) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 19:52:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash In-Reply-To: <46175C88-2BF1-4D83-868A-D35D3223AC6F@gmail.com> References: <46175C88-2BF1-4D83-868A-D35D3223AC6F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <128983846.818744.1440618759416.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> I remember the "early days" of installing, which for us was early 1990's. We used stainless steel rod hangers straight into rafters, which left us with 4" threaded rod sticking up out of the roof. We used thru the roof for sealing under a nut and fender washer. I've visited a couple of those sites recently (still no leaks after over 25 yrs of production). By the way, we have changed our mounting methods since then......... Max Balchowsky Design Engineer Golden Bridge Development 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 760-403-6810"Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" From: jay To: RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 7:44 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash Didn’t know there was a pole. I”m on the flash side.  Question for those who don’t. How would  your insurance claim work if you didn’t flash? jay peltz power > On Aug 25, 2015, at 9:59 PM, Jason Andrade wrote: > > I wouldn't install a comp roof system without the flashings myself, I am in > Northern California and the extreme weather both heat and cold are murder on > roofing. > > Jason > > West Coast Sustainables > Jason Andrade > C-46# 974647 > (530) 410-4745 Cell > (530) 241-7498 Office > (530) 348-5301 Fax > Jason at westcoastsustainables.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john at gosolar.co.nz Wed Aug 26 16:08:51 2015 From: john at gosolar.co.nz (John) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 08:08:51 +1200 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Query for Old Trace guys..... Message-ID: <001e01d0e03b$06aa49e0$13fedda0$@gosolar.co.nz> Can anyone explain the difference between a SWRC and a RC5 (which evidentally was for a M1512 or M1524) Specifically can a RC5 be used in place of a SWRC, they seem to be similar. What is the technical difference. Cheers, John V -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From boB at midnitesolar.com Wed Aug 26 17:44:00 2015 From: boB at midnitesolar.com (boB at midnitesolar.com) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 14:44:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Query for Old Trace guys..... In-Reply-To: <001e01d0e03b$06aa49e0$13fedda0$@gosolar.co.nz> References: <001e01d0e03b$06aa49e0$13fedda0$@gosolar.co.nz> Message-ID: <55DE3320.2030907@midnitesolar.com> The two remotes are completely different from each other... If by SWRC you mean the black (typically) rectangular remote for the SW that looks the same as the one on the SW inverter itself with the LCD and the 4 big (ish) square buttons. (The HAL 9000) The SWRC has a bunch of separate wires in the parallel printer looking cable that communicate directly with the remote's push-buttons and LCD. The RC5 contains its own microprocessor and RS232 communications lines that talk to the M or DR inverters. The DR and M (marine) inverters are very similar. boB On 8/26/2015 1:08 PM, John wrote: > > Can anyone explain the difference between a SWRC and a RC5 (which > evidentally was for a M1512 or M1524) > > Specifically can a RC5 be used in place of a SWRC, they seem to be > similar. What is the technical difference. Cheers, John V > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Wed Aug 26 18:44:05 2015 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 18:44:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Battery Systems In-Reply-To: <55DE160D.7060109@solarray.com> References: <55DE160D.7060109@solarray.com> Message-ID: <1C98F776-EEBF-4A47-A4D8-07A36D7CE6A1@swnl.net> I know that IF the SMA SI master inverter is shut down then all follow, shunt trip breaker only for the master? Also look at the Midnite MNBCB 1000/50 (Previous Model Num: MNBCB-1000/50-Battery Combiner) MidNite 1000amp battery combiner box Includes a 1000amp Positive and Negative bus bar with 3/8 inch studs. On Aug 26, 2015, at 3:39 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > Hi Wrenches; > > I have an upcoming project to be inspected, ,and having spent too much time on off grid and out of country work, I'm now playing catch up with the new 690.12 and 690.71(H) requirements. > The proposed GTB system is 3 Radians with a ground mounted 18kW array and large HUP battery bank. I just read a Bill Brooks article that basically says that Rapid Shutdown not only applies to ground mounted arrays that come into buildings, but also applies to battery cables if longer than 5 ft. > There are 690.12 compliant combiners from Midnite that work with their Birdhouse system, so I think I've got a handle on the array requirements (more or less). > What is stumping me is how to feed three 8kW inverters from a large battery, and install auto disconnect breakers within 5 ft. > 1) the disconnect has to be large enough, Midnite only makes a 250 amp remote trip breaker, so I'd have to parallel 3 of these? > 2) 690.71(H)3 says the breaker can't be in the battery enclosure, which is tricky since the enclosure is 160" long from one end to the other with 2 parallel strings. > 3) I'm having trouble even finding an enclosure for 3 large DC breakers (Flex 1000 is the only thing I know of) and to get the enclosure close enough is an issue too. > I just got off the phone with Tech support at Outback and they don't seem to have any Rapid Shutdown gear ready. > Are inspectors actually requiring this yet, or because of the lack of available UL listed products, can we take a pass on at least some of the requirements? Another strategy the Outback tech thought of is to put all the equipment into a shipping container and then its not in or on a "building", and 690.12 doesn't apply. > > -- > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Aug 26 19:26:43 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 17:26:43 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Battery Systems In-Reply-To: <1C98F776-EEBF-4A47-A4D8-07A36D7CE6A1@swnl.net> References: <55DE160D.7060109@solarray.com> <1C98F776-EEBF-4A47-A4D8-07A36D7CE6A1@swnl.net> Message-ID: <55DE4B33.7070500@solarray.com> I spoke with Phil Undercuffler from Outback, who is a long term respected member of our list (and nice guy). He basically said there is a lot of misinformation on 690.12, but essentially it should only be applied to roof mounted PV, and that it is specifically to address firefighters' need to quickly vent the roof in the event of a fire. This original intent has nothing to do with ground mounted PV, batteries, backup inverter power, etc. Bill's more encompassing interpretation holds solar installers to a much higher standard than other electrical installations. UPS and backup generator systems for instance, that do not include PV, do not have to worry about Rapid Shutdown. 690.71 requiring a disconnect near the batteries, is still applicable, but it is really unclear how exactly the 5 ft should be measured. The battery combiner box from Midnite is what I was looking for, Thanks Tump. I plan to have breakers on the 2 separate parallel battery strings, so I think I will be able to make the 5 ft rule. Before, the furthest inverter disconnect was definitely going to be beyond 5 ft from the battery. I am still considering including the battery disconnects in the Rapid Shutdown system, but as Phil pointed out: this defeats the purpose of having a backup system, if anyone can just walk up to the outside of the house, push a button, and shut down all your critical loads. Once again, its all going to come down to the AHJ's view, though I will do my part to put him in touch with folks like Phil, who as the manufacturer's rep of the UL listed product has some say on how their equipment is to be installed. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 8/26/2015 4:44 PM, Tump wrote: > I know that IF the SMA SI master inverter is shut down then all > follow, shunt trip breaker only for the master? Also look at the > Midnite MNBCB 1000/50 > > > (Previous Model Num: MNBCB-1000/50-Battery Combiner) > MidNite 1000amp battery combiner box > Includes a 1000amp Positive and Negative bus bar with 3/8 inch studs. > On Aug 26, 2015, at 3:39 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > >> Hi Wrenches; >> >> I have an upcoming project to be inspected, ,and having spent too >> much time on off grid and out of country work, I'm now playing catch >> up with the new 690.12 and 690.71(H) requirements. >> The proposed GTB system is 3 Radians with a ground mounted 18kW array >> and large HUP battery bank. I just read a Bill Brooks article that >> basically says that Rapid Shutdown not only applies to ground mounted >> arrays that come into buildings, but also applies to battery cables >> if longer than 5 ft. >> There are 690.12 compliant combiners from Midnite that work with >> their Birdhouse system, so I think I've got a handle on the array >> requirements (more or less). >> What is stumping me is how to feed three 8kW inverters from a large >> battery, and install auto disconnect breakers within 5 ft. >> 1) the disconnect has to be large enough, Midnite only makes a 250 >> amp remote trip breaker, so I'd have to parallel 3 of these? >> 2) 690.71(H)3 says the breaker can't be in the battery enclosure, >> which is tricky since the enclosure is 160" long from one end to the >> other with 2 parallel strings. >> 3) I'm having trouble even finding an enclosure for 3 large DC >> breakers (Flex 1000 is the only thing I know of) and to get the >> enclosure close enough is an issue too. >> I just got off the phone with Tech support at Outback and they don't >> seem to have any Rapid Shutdown gear ready. >> Are inspectors actually requiring this yet, or because of the lack of >> available UL listed products, can we take a pass on at least some of >> the requirements? Another strategy the Outback tech thought of is to >> put all the equipment into a shipping container and then its not in >> or on a "building", and 690.12 doesn't apply. >> >> -- >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> *Tump at swnl.net >> **www.SWNL.net* >> >> Solarwinds Northernlights *//* >> */ Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California/**/ >> /**/ 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 /* >> *//**/Blair "TUMP" May/* >> >> */ ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> /**//**/NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"/**/ >> /**/ >> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> /**/Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"/* >> >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Wed Aug 26 19:41:12 2015 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 19:41:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Battery Systems In-Reply-To: <55DE4B33.7070500@solarray.com> References: <55DE160D.7060109@solarray.com> <1C98F776-EEBF-4A47-A4D8-07A36D7CE6A1@swnl.net> <55DE4B33.7070500@solarray.com> Message-ID: Rapid shut down, should be the direction we as off/grid or on grid BB installers should be moving towards..... kinda like my flashing rant, we are in the 21st century and we ARE professionals! We as an industry should be more concerned about fire fighters and their safety BEFORE they goose step their ideas into industry requirements, like they did in Mass. Educating your fire fighters as to the location of the bird house and locking it would be a quick solution to the malicious shutting off of a system. FF do carry and do use bolt cutters. On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:26 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > I spoke with Phil Undercuffler from Outback, who is a long term respected member of our list (and nice guy). He basically said there is a lot of misinformation on 690.12, but essentially it should only be applied to roof mounted PV, and that it is specifically to address firefighters' need to quickly vent the roof in the event of a fire. This original intent has nothing to do with ground mounted PV, batteries, backup inverter power, etc. Bill's more encompassing interpretation holds solar installers to a much higher standard than other electrical installations. UPS and backup generator systems for instance, that do not include PV, do not have to worry about Rapid Shutdown. > 690.71 requiring a disconnect near the batteries, is still applicable, but it is really unclear how exactly the 5 ft should be measured. The battery combiner box from Midnite is what I was looking for, Thanks Tump. I plan to have breakers on the 2 separate parallel battery strings, so I think I will be able to make the 5 ft rule. Before, the furthest inverter disconnect was definitely going to be beyond 5 ft from the battery. I am still considering including the battery disconnects in the Rapid Shutdown system, but as Phil pointed out: this defeats the purpose of having a backup system, if anyone can just walk up to the outside of the house, push a button, and shut down all your critical loads. > Once again, its all going to come down to the AHJ's view, though I will do my part to put him in touch with folks like Phil, who as the manufacturer's rep of the UL listed product has some say on how their equipment is to be installed. > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > On 8/26/2015 4:44 PM, Tump wrote: >> I know that IF the SMA SI master inverter is shut down then all follow, shunt trip breaker only for the master? Also look at the Midnite MNBCB 1000/50 >> (Previous Model Num: MNBCB-1000/50-Battery Combiner) >> MidNite 1000amp battery combiner box >> Includes a 1000amp Positive and Negative bus bar with 3/8 inch studs. >> On Aug 26, 2015, at 3:39 PM, Ray Walters wrote: >> >>> Hi Wrenches; >>> >>> I have an upcoming project to be inspected, ,and having spent too much time on off grid and out of country work, I'm now playing catch up with the new 690.12 and 690.71(H) requirements. >>> The proposed GTB system is 3 Radians with a ground mounted 18kW array and large HUP battery bank. I just read a Bill Brooks article that basically says that Rapid Shutdown not only applies to ground mounted arrays that come into buildings, but also applies to battery cables if longer than 5 ft. >>> There are 690.12 compliant combiners from Midnite that work with their Birdhouse system, so I think I've got a handle on the array requirements (more or less). >>> What is stumping me is how to feed three 8kW inverters from a large battery, and install auto disconnect breakers within 5 ft. >>> 1) the disconnect has to be large enough, Midnite only makes a 250 amp remote trip breaker, so I'd have to parallel 3 of these? >>> 2) 690.71(H)3 says the breaker can't be in the battery enclosure, which is tricky since the enclosure is 160" long from one end to the other with 2 parallel strings. >>> 3) I'm having trouble even finding an enclosure for 3 large DC breakers (Flex 1000 is the only thing I know of) and to get the enclosure close enough is an issue too. >>> I just got off the phone with Tech support at Outback and they don't seem to have any Rapid Shutdown gear ready. >>> Are inspectors actually requiring this yet, or because of the lack of available UL listed products, can we take a pass on at least some of the requirements? Another strategy the Outback tech thought of is to put all the equipment into a shipping container and then its not in or on a "building", and 690.12 doesn't apply. >>> >>> -- >>> R.Ray Walters >>> CTO, Solarray, Inc >>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >>> Licensed Master Electrician >>> Solar Design Engineer >>> 303 505-8760 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >>> Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net >>> Solarwinds Northernlights >>> Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California >>> 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 >>> Blair "TUMP" May >>> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>> NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" >>> >>> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>> Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" >>> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Wed Aug 26 22:22:14 2015 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 20:22:14 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Battery Systems In-Reply-To: References: <55DE160D.7060109@solarray.com> <1C98F776-EEBF-4A47-A4D8-07A36D7CE6A1@swnl.net> <55DE4B33.7070500@solarray.com> Message-ID: Here's a link from the CO State Electrical Inspector Supervisor. http://iaeimagazine.org/magazine/2015/01/22/rapid-shutdown-of-pv-systems/ Good article. Seems like off grid pole mount array and battery conductors WILL apply. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > On Aug 26, 2015, at 5:41 PM, Tump wrote: > > Rapid shut down, should be the direction we as off/grid or on grid BB installers should be moving towards..... kinda like my flashing rant, we are in the 21st century and we ARE professionals! We as an industry should be more concerned about fire fighters and their safety BEFORE they goose step their ideas into industry requirements, like they did in Mass. Educating your fire fighters as to the location of the bird house and locking it would be a quick solution to the malicious shutting off of a system. FF do carry and do use bolt cutters. > >> On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:26 PM, Ray Walters wrote: >> >> I spoke with Phil Undercuffler from Outback, who is a long term respected member of our list (and nice guy). He basically said there is a lot of misinformation on 690.12, but essentially it should only be applied to roof mounted PV, and that it is specifically to address firefighters' need to quickly vent the roof in the event of a fire. This original intent has nothing to do with ground mounted PV, batteries, backup inverter power, etc. Bill's more encompassing interpretation holds solar installers to a much higher standard than other electrical installations. UPS and backup generator systems for instance, that do not include PV, do not have to worry about Rapid Shutdown. >> 690.71 requiring a disconnect near the batteries, is still applicable, but it is really unclear how exactly the 5 ft should be measured. The battery combiner box from Midnite is what I was looking for, Thanks Tump. I plan to have breakers on the 2 separate parallel battery strings, so I think I will be able to make the 5 ft rule. Before, the furthest inverter disconnect was definitely going to be beyond 5 ft from the battery. I am still considering including the battery disconnects in the Rapid Shutdown system, but as Phil pointed out: this defeats the purpose of having a backup system, if anyone can just walk up to the outside of the house, push a button, and shut down all your critical loads. >> Once again, its all going to come down to the AHJ's view, though I will do my part to put him in touch with folks like Phil, who as the manufacturer's rep of the UL listed product has some say on how their equipment is to be installed. >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >>> On 8/26/2015 4:44 PM, Tump wrote: >>> I know that IF the SMA SI master inverter is shut down then all follow, shunt trip breaker only for the master? Also look at the Midnite MNBCB 1000/50 >>> (Previous Model Num: MNBCB-1000/50-Battery Combiner) >>> MidNite 1000amp battery combiner box >>> Includes a 1000amp Positive and Negative bus bar with 3/8 inch studs. >>>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 3:39 PM, Ray Walters wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Wrenches; >>>> >>>> I have an upcoming project to be inspected, ,and having spent too much time on off grid and out of country work, I'm now playing catch up with the new 690.12 and 690.71(H) requirements. >>>> The proposed GTB system is 3 Radians with a ground mounted 18kW array and large HUP battery bank. I just read a Bill Brooks article that basically says that Rapid Shutdown not only applies to ground mounted arrays that come into buildings, but also applies to battery cables if longer than 5 ft. >>>> There are 690.12 compliant combiners from Midnite that work with their Birdhouse system, so I think I've got a handle on the array requirements (more or less). >>>> What is stumping me is how to feed three 8kW inverters from a large battery, and install auto disconnect breakers within 5 ft. >>>> 1) the disconnect has to be large enough, Midnite only makes a 250 amp remote trip breaker, so I'd have to parallel 3 of these? >>>> 2) 690.71(H)3 says the breaker can't be in the battery enclosure, which is tricky since the enclosure is 160" long from one end to the other with 2 parallel strings. >>>> 3) I'm having trouble even finding an enclosure for 3 large DC breakers (Flex 1000 is the only thing I know of) and to get the enclosure close enough is an issue too. >>>> I just got off the phone with Tech support at Outback and they don't seem to have any Rapid Shutdown gear ready. >>>> Are inspectors actually requiring this yet, or because of the lack of available UL listed products, can we take a pass on at least some of the requirements? Another strategy the Outback tech thought of is to put all the equipment into a shipping container and then its not in or on a "building", and 690.12 doesn't apply. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> R.Ray Walters >>>> CTO, Solarray, Inc >>>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >>>> Licensed Master Electrician >>>> Solar Design Engineer >>>> 303 505-8760 >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>>> Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net >>>> Solarwinds Northernlights >>>> Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California >>>> 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 >>>> Blair "TUMP" May >>>> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>>> NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" >>>> >>>> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>>> Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net >> Solarwinds Northernlights >> Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California >> 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 >> Blair "TUMP" May >> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" >> >> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 20:57:29 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 17:57:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Battery Systems In-Reply-To: References: <55DE160D.7060109@solarray.com> <1C98F776-EEBF-4A47-A4D8-07A36D7CE6A1@swnl.net> <55DE4B33.7070500@solarray.com> Message-ID: I agree but how you shut it down is very different. We can shut down BB inverter from the AC side as well. Much easier, cheaper and does the same job. my 2 cents. jay peltz power > On Aug 26, 2015, at 4:41 PM, Tump wrote: > > Rapid shut down, should be the direction we as off/grid or on grid BB installers should be moving towards..... kinda like my flashing rant, we are in the 21st century and we ARE professionals! We as an industry should be more concerned about fire fighters and their safety BEFORE they goose step their ideas into industry requirements, like they did in Mass. Educating your fire fighters as to the location of the bird house and locking it would be a quick solution to the malicious shutting off of a system. FF do carry and do use bolt cutters. > > On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:26 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > >> I spoke with Phil Undercuffler from Outback, who is a long term respected member of our list (and nice guy). He basically said there is a lot of misinformation on 690.12, but essentially it should only be applied to roof mounted PV, and that it is specifically to address firefighters' need to quickly vent the roof in the event of a fire. This original intent has nothing to do with ground mounted PV, batteries, backup inverter power, etc. Bill's more encompassing interpretation holds solar installers to a much higher standard than other electrical installations. UPS and backup generator systems for instance, that do not include PV, do not have to worry about Rapid Shutdown. >> 690.71 requiring a disconnect near the batteries, is still applicable, but it is really unclear how exactly the 5 ft should be measured. The battery combiner box from Midnite is what I was looking for, Thanks Tump. I plan to have breakers on the 2 separate parallel battery strings, so I think I will be able to make the 5 ft rule. Before, the furthest inverter disconnect was definitely going to be beyond 5 ft from the battery. I am still considering including the battery disconnects in the Rapid Shutdown system, but as Phil pointed out: this defeats the purpose of having a backup system, if anyone can just walk up to the outside of the house, push a button, and shut down all your critical loads. >> Once again, its all going to come down to the AHJ's view, though I will do my part to put him in touch with folks like Phil, who as the manufacturer's rep of the UL listed product has some say on how their equipment is to be installed. >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 > From ray at solarray.com Thu Aug 27 00:40:25 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 22:40:25 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Battery Systems In-Reply-To: References: <55DE160D.7060109@solarray.com> <1C98F776-EEBF-4A47-A4D8-07A36D7CE6A1@swnl.net> <55DE4B33.7070500@solarray.com> Message-ID: <55DE94B9.8040105@solarray.com> Hey I think Rapid shutdown is a cool idea too: you walk up and hit one button and everything is safe. I've advocated for increased safety including for batteries. But its at a cost: a big cost, especially for small systems. While we debate what 690.12 applies to and which equipment might work, the average off gridder yawns and buys stuff off the internet; him and his buddy grab a 12 pack and they start hacking it together. Every dollar we add to the system cost is moving the safety we offer further from lower income people. Just ask how many inverters sold last month on the internet. The overall effect is not safer solar overall; instead its the uber rich get the Rapid Shutdown, and the poor go for welding cable straight to the battery. And now lets talk Fire Fighter safety: who's shanty is going to be their next 3 alarm fire? Let's not leave regular people out of the safety equation, or we're really just burning all of us, and the industry too. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 8/26/2015 6:57 PM, jay wrote: > I agree but how you shut it down is very different. > > We can shut down BB inverter from the AC side as well. > Much easier, cheaper and does the same job. > > my 2 cents. > jay > > peltz power > > > > >> On Aug 26, 2015, at 4:41 PM, Tump wrote: >> >> Rapid shut down, should be the direction we as off/grid or on grid BB installers should be moving towards..... kinda like my flashing rant, we are in the 21st century and we ARE professionals! We as an industry should be more concerned about fire fighters and their safety BEFORE they goose step their ideas into industry requirements, like they did in Mass. Educating your fire fighters as to the location of the bird house and locking it would be a quick solution to the malicious shutting off of a system. FF do carry and do use bolt cutters. >> >> On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:26 PM, Ray Walters wrote: >> >>> I spoke with Phil Undercuffler from Outback, who is a long term respected member of our list (and nice guy). He basically said there is a lot of misinformation on 690.12, but essentially it should only be applied to roof mounted PV, and that it is specifically to address firefighters' need to quickly vent the roof in the event of a fire. This original intent has nothing to do with ground mounted PV, batteries, backup inverter power, etc. Bill's more encompassing interpretation holds solar installers to a much higher standard than other electrical installations. UPS and backup generator systems for instance, that do not include PV, do not have to worry about Rapid Shutdown. >>> 690.71 requiring a disconnect near the batteries, is still applicable, but it is really unclear how exactly the 5 ft should be measured. The battery combiner box from Midnite is what I was looking for, Thanks Tump. I plan to have breakers on the 2 separate parallel battery strings, so I think I will be able to make the 5 ft rule. Before, the furthest inverter disconnect was definitely going to be beyond 5 ft from the battery. I am still considering including the battery disconnects in the Rapid Shutdown system, but as Phil pointed out: this defeats the purpose of having a backup system, if anyone can just walk up to the outside of the house, push a button, and shut down all your critical loads. >>> Once again, its all going to come down to the AHJ's view, though I will do my part to put him in touch with folks like Phil, who as the manufacturer's rep of the UL listed product has some say on how their equipment is to be installed. >>> R.Ray Walters >>> CTO, Solarray, Inc >>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >>> Licensed Master Electrician >>> Solar Design Engineer >>> 303 505-8760 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net Thu Aug 27 00:19:34 2015 From: billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net (billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 21:19:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Battery Systems In-Reply-To: <55DE160D.7060109@solarray.com> References: <55DE160D.7060109@solarray.com> Message-ID: <022601d0e07f$95280240$bf7806c0$@sbcglobal.net> Ray, Do you have a massive battery bank and 3, 8kW inverters inside the house? Is this in a garage or power shed. If it is a power shed, then 690.12 is not intended to relate to the power shed. That will be clarified in the 2017 NEC. The area for discussion is what constitutes the length of battery cables. 690.71 has restrictions on where overcurrent protection needs to be for circuits longer than 5'. Do people really follow that religiously? This would be a discussion that really needs to happen with the AHJ. My basic view is that if I have a 4' run from a battery box to my inverters (even though one lead may be 10' long), many would call that a 4' run. That is what is exposed from a fire fighter point of view. Remember the battery is potentially a massive bomb in a fire, so 48V conductors are the least of a fire fighter's concern. Bottom line is how to make it easy for a firefighter to kill the vast majority of wires in a building. A backup system simply reenergizes everything. Cutting off the dc from the array and the ac out of the inverters solves the problem--keep the battery as close as possible and don't worry about trying to turn off the battery circuit to the inverter. Bill. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 12:40 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Battery Systems Hi Wrenches; I have an upcoming project to be inspected, ,and having spent too much time on off grid and out of country work, I'm now playing catch up with the new 690.12 and 690.71(H) requirements. The proposed GTB system is 3 Radians with a ground mounted 18kW array and large HUP battery bank. I just read a Bill Brooks article that basically says that Rapid Shutdown not only applies to ground mounted arrays that come into buildings, but also applies to battery cables if longer than 5 ft. There are 690.12 compliant combiners from Midnite that work with their Birdhouse system, so I think I've got a handle on the array requirements (more or less). What is stumping me is how to feed three 8kW inverters from a large battery, and install auto disconnect breakers within 5 ft. 1) the disconnect has to be large enough, Midnite only makes a 250 amp remote trip breaker, so I'd have to parallel 3 of these? 2) 690.71(H)3 says the breaker can't be in the battery enclosure, which is tricky since the enclosure is 160" long from one end to the other with 2 parallel strings. 3) I'm having trouble even finding an enclosure for 3 large DC breakers (Flex 1000 is the only thing I know of) and to get the enclosure close enough is an issue too. I just got off the phone with Tech support at Outback and they don't seem to have any Rapid Shutdown gear ready. Are inspectors actually requiring this yet, or because of the lack of available UL listed products, can we take a pass on at least some of the requirements? Another strategy the Outback tech thought of is to put all the equipment into a shipping container and then its not in or on a "building", and 690.12 doesn't apply. -- R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From benn at skyfireenergy.com Thu Aug 27 10:49:46 2015 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 08:49:46 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Recycling broken PV modules Message-ID: Wrenches, I apologize that this is not quite 'Wrenching". A recent post by Eric Stikes; "Old or Damaged PV Modules", has sparked something that i have been sitting on for quite a while now.... seeing that broken solar modules are properly recycled and do not end up in landfills. Before going on, I encourage anyone to look further into what Eric is providing and see if that is the best route for you to go with your damaged or unwanted modules. That being said, i am looking for info on recycling PV modules. I have seen in some PV mod install manuals to contact the mfgr regarding recycling/disposing, so i will do that. I have contacted our city's waste management department and am going to do a bit of research myself and share with them any info i can come up with. If any of you know of any such recycling programs that are already set up or in the process of being set up, or have any useful information regarding this then please share the contact info or link with me. Sunny Regards, *Benn Kilburn * CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc 6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7 P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com [image: email] [image: facebook] [image: twitter] [image: linkedin] [image: google] [image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Thu Aug 27 10:54:20 2015 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 10:54:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Query for Old Trace guys..... In-Reply-To: <001e01d0e03b$06aa49e0$13fedda0$@gosolar.co.nz> References: <001e01d0e03b$06aa49e0$13fedda0$@gosolar.co.nz> Message-ID: <012301d0e0d8$413403b0$c39c0b10$@solarandwindfx.com> John V, FYI, if you need an SWRC or anyone else on the list for that matter I've got a brand new one still in the box with cable and instructions. Contact me off list. Christopher Chris Schaefer's SolarWindFX Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of John Sent: Wednesday, 26 August, 2015 16:09 To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Query for Old Trace guys..... Can anyone explain the difference between a SWRC and a RC5 (which evidentally was for a M1512 or M1524) Specifically can a RC5 be used in place of a SWRC, they seem to be similar. What is the technical difference. Cheers, John V -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image012.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2816 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 11:07:31 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 08:07:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Battery Systems In-Reply-To: <022601d0e07f$95280240$bf7806c0$@sbcglobal.net> References: <55DE160D.7060109@solarray.com> <022601d0e07f$95280240$bf7806c0$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <17AC0520-895B-4F22-86AA-62C7367FA83B@gmail.com> HI Bill, Thanks for your thoughts and clarifications on this super simple ( HA) topic. But can you elaborate on the batteries are a potential massive bomb thing? thanks jay peltz power > On Aug 26, 2015, at 9:19 PM, wrote: > > Ray, > > Do you have a massive battery bank and 3, 8kW inverters inside the house? Is > this in a garage or power shed. If it is a power shed, then 690.12 is not > intended to relate to the power shed. That will be clarified in the 2017 > NEC. > > The area for discussion is what constitutes the length of battery cables. > 690.71 has restrictions on where overcurrent protection needs to be for > circuits longer than 5'. Do people really follow that religiously? This > would be a discussion that really needs to happen with the AHJ. My basic > view is that if I have a 4' run from a battery box to my inverters (even > though one lead may be 10' long), many would call that a 4' run. That is > what is exposed from a fire fighter point of view. Remember the battery is > potentially a massive bomb in a fire, so 48V conductors are the least of a > fire fighter's concern. > > Bottom line is how to make it easy for a firefighter to kill the vast > majority of wires in a building. A backup system simply reenergizes > everything. Cutting off the dc from the array and the ac out of the > inverters solves the problem--keep the battery as close as possible and > don't worry about trying to turn off the battery circuit to the inverter. > > Bill. > > From ray at solarray.com Thu Aug 27 11:29:01 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 09:29:01 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Battery Systems In-Reply-To: <022601d0e07f$95280240$bf7806c0$@sbcglobal.net> References: <55DE160D.7060109@solarray.com> <022601d0e07f$95280240$bf7806c0$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <55DF2CBD.3060305@solarray.com> Thanks for the Clarification Bill, I may forward your comments to the AHJ at some point. The system is proposed to be located in the 4 car garage, so there will be cars filled with gasoline in there as well. I always keep my battery cable runs short as possible, in this case the bank will be long and skinny, but the positives can be located at the end near the inverters. The negative (grounded conductor) will have the long run through the battery enclosure. Only the 3rd inverter would be more than 5 ft from the battery enclosure. I am considering a battery combiner box with breakers for each string (only 2 strings) to meet 690.71(H) As others have pointed out, killing the AC output of the inverters is much easier to accomplish remotely. Locking the Birdhouse would prevent unauthorized disconnection of critical loads, but unfortunately the Birdhouse does not have lockable cover, so that is still a very real concern for the owners. As you pointed out, the real danger of the backup system is the batteries themselves, I spoke with firefighters this week, and they have to go into HAZMAT mode when they start dealing with a large battery bank. So as you mentioned, the short run of 48 vdc is not what they are concerned with. My main goal at this point is not to get red tagged and have to retrofit a bunch of expensive, special order gear later. Our motto: "Do it right the first time" is easy to say, but can be hard to live up to. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 8/26/2015 10:19 PM, billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net wrote: > Ray, > > Do you have a massive battery bank and 3, 8kW inverters inside the house? Is > this in a garage or power shed. If it is a power shed, then 690.12 is not > intended to relate to the power shed. That will be clarified in the 2017 > NEC. > > The area for discussion is what constitutes the length of battery cables. > 690.71 has restrictions on where overcurrent protection needs to be for > circuits longer than 5'. Do people really follow that religiously? This > would be a discussion that really needs to happen with the AHJ. My basic > view is that if I have a 4' run from a battery box to my inverters (even > though one lead may be 10' long), many would call that a 4' run. That is > what is exposed from a fire fighter point of view. Remember the battery is > potentially a massive bomb in a fire, so 48V conductors are the least of a > fire fighter's concern. > > Bottom line is how to make it easy for a firefighter to kill the vast > majority of wires in a building. A backup system simply reenergizes > everything. Cutting off the dc from the array and the ac out of the > inverters solves the problem--keep the battery as close as possible and > don't worry about trying to turn off the battery circuit to the inverter. > > Bill. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Ray Walters > Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 12:40 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Battery Systems > > Hi Wrenches; > > I have an upcoming project to be inspected, ,and having spent too much time > on off grid and out of country work, I'm now playing catch up with the new > 690.12 and 690.71(H) requirements. > The proposed GTB system is 3 Radians with a ground mounted 18kW array and > large HUP battery bank. I just read a Bill Brooks article that basically > says that Rapid Shutdown not only applies to ground mounted arrays that come > into buildings, but also applies to battery cables if longer than 5 ft. > There are 690.12 compliant combiners from Midnite that work with their > Birdhouse system, so I think I've got a handle on the array requirements > (more or less). > What is stumping me is how to feed three 8kW inverters from a large battery, > and install auto disconnect breakers within 5 ft. > 1) the disconnect has to be large enough, Midnite only makes a 250 amp > remote trip breaker, so I'd have to parallel 3 of these? > 2) 690.71(H)3 says the breaker can't be in the battery enclosure, which is > tricky since the enclosure is 160" long from one end to the other with 2 > parallel strings. > 3) I'm having trouble even finding an enclosure for 3 large DC breakers > (Flex 1000 is the only thing I know of) and to get the enclosure close > enough is an issue too. > I just got off the phone with Tech support at Outback and they don't seem to > have any Rapid Shutdown gear ready. > Are inspectors actually requiring this yet, or because of the lack of > available UL listed products, can we take a pass on at least some of the > requirements? Another strategy the Outback tech thought of is to put all > the equipment into a shipping container and then its not in or on a > "building", and 690.12 doesn't apply. > > -- > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From benn at skyfireenergy.com Thu Aug 27 13:03:50 2015 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 11:03:50 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Battery Systems In-Reply-To: <55DF2CBD.3060305@solarray.com> References: <55DE160D.7060109@solarray.com> <022601d0e07f$95280240$bf7806c0$@sbcglobal.net> <55DF2CBD.3060305@solarray.com> Message-ID: Ray, Two quick suggestions... 1. Have you considered "leapfrogging" the battery connections? This would avoid the long negative cable run and have both positive and negative runs closer to the inverters. 2. Could you locate the Birdhouse inside a lockable box or cabinet? Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 > On Aug 27, 2015, at 9:29 AM, Ray Walters wrote: > > Thanks for the Clarification Bill, I may forward your comments to the AHJ at some point. The system is proposed to be located in the 4 car garage, so there will be cars filled with gasoline in there as well. > I always keep my battery cable runs short as possible, in this case the bank will be long and skinny, but the positives can be located at the end near the inverters. The negative (grounded conductor) will have the long run through the battery enclosure. Only the 3rd inverter would be more than 5 ft from the battery enclosure. I am considering a battery combiner box with breakers for each string (only 2 strings) to meet 690.71(H) > As others have pointed out, killing the AC output of the inverters is much easier to accomplish remotely. Locking the Birdhouse would prevent unauthorized disconnection of critical loads, but unfortunately the Birdhouse does not have lockable cover, so that is still a very real concern for the owners. As you pointed out, the real danger of the backup system is the batteries themselves, I spoke with firefighters this week, and they have to go into HAZMAT mode when they start dealing with a large battery bank. So as you mentioned, the short run of 48 vdc is not what they are concerned with. > My main goal at this point is not to get red tagged and have to retrofit a bunch of expensive, special order gear later. Our motto: "Do it right the first time" is easy to say, but can be hard to live up to. > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > >> On 8/26/2015 10:19 PM, billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net wrote: >> Ray, >> >> Do you have a massive battery bank and 3, 8kW inverters inside the house? Is >> this in a garage or power shed. If it is a power shed, then 690.12 is not >> intended to relate to the power shed. That will be clarified in the 2017 >> NEC. >> >> The area for discussion is what constitutes the length of battery cables. >> 690.71 has restrictions on where overcurrent protection needs to be for >> circuits longer than 5'. Do people really follow that religiously? This >> would be a discussion that really needs to happen with the AHJ. My basic >> view is that if I have a 4' run from a battery box to my inverters (even >> though one lead may be 10' long), many would call that a 4' run. That is >> what is exposed from a fire fighter point of view. Remember the battery is >> potentially a massive bomb in a fire, so 48V conductors are the least of a >> fire fighter's concern. >> >> Bottom line is how to make it easy for a firefighter to kill the vast >> majority of wires in a building. A backup system simply reenergizes >> everything. Cutting off the dc from the array and the ac out of the >> inverters solves the problem--keep the battery as close as possible and >> don't worry about trying to turn off the battery circuit to the inverter. >> >> Bill. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On >> Behalf Of Ray Walters >> Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 12:40 PM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Battery Systems >> >> Hi Wrenches; >> >> I have an upcoming project to be inspected, ,and having spent too much time >> on off grid and out of country work, I'm now playing catch up with the new >> 690.12 and 690.71(H) requirements. >> The proposed GTB system is 3 Radians with a ground mounted 18kW array and >> large HUP battery bank. I just read a Bill Brooks article that basically >> says that Rapid Shutdown not only applies to ground mounted arrays that come >> into buildings, but also applies to battery cables if longer than 5 ft. >> There are 690.12 compliant combiners from Midnite that work with their >> Birdhouse system, so I think I've got a handle on the array requirements >> (more or less). >> What is stumping me is how to feed three 8kW inverters from a large battery, >> and install auto disconnect breakers within 5 ft. >> 1) the disconnect has to be large enough, Midnite only makes a 250 amp >> remote trip breaker, so I'd have to parallel 3 of these? >> 2) 690.71(H)3 says the breaker can't be in the battery enclosure, which is >> tricky since the enclosure is 160" long from one end to the other with 2 >> parallel strings. >> 3) I'm having trouble even finding an enclosure for 3 large DC breakers >> (Flex 1000 is the only thing I know of) and to get the enclosure close >> enough is an issue too. >> I just got off the phone with Tech support at Outback and they don't seem to >> have any Rapid Shutdown gear ready. >> Are inspectors actually requiring this yet, or because of the lack of >> available UL listed products, can we take a pass on at least some of the >> requirements? Another strategy the Outback tech thought of is to put all >> the equipment into a shipping container and then its not in or on a >> "building", and 690.12 doesn't apply. >> >> -- >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> --- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From benn at skyfireenergy.com Fri Aug 28 15:43:38 2015 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 13:43:38 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash In-Reply-To: <128983846.818744.1440618759416.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <46175C88-2BF1-4D83-868A-D35D3223AC6F@gmail.com> <128983846.818744.1440618759416.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Here is a devils advocate question for everyone (*including myself*) who is claiming "no leaks after x-years". Are we assuming "no leaks" because the home/system owner has not reported any or because there are no water stains on the ceilings below the arrays *or* are we actually looking in the attic and seeing that there are absolutely NO water marks where the attachment points are? I would think that there is a big difference? But having not gone back to every install and actually getting up and looking around *inside the attic*, would it not be presumptuous to assume that there have been no leaks? *Benn Kilburn * CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc 6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7 P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com [image: email] [image: facebook] [image: twitter] [image: linkedin] [image: google] [image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal] On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 1:52 PM, wrote: > I remember the "early days" of installing, which for us was early 1990's. > We used stainless steel rod hangers straight into rafters, which left us > with 4" threaded rod sticking up out of the roof. We used thru the roof for > sealing under a nut and fender washer. I've visited a couple of those sites > recently (still no leaks after over 25 yrs of production). By the way, we > have changed our mounting methods since then......... > > Max Balchowsky > Design Engineer > Golden Bridge Development > 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 > Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 > 760-403-6810 > "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Aug 28 16:13:56 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 16:13:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash In-Reply-To: References: <46175C88-2BF1-4D83-868A-D35D3223AC6F@gmail.com> <128983846.818744.1440618759416.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Benn, To answer your (good) question one way, I won't speak for PV without flashings, but with literally tens of thousands of solar pool heating systems installed by all dealers that don't use flashings just in tiny Southwest Florida over the past 40 years, each system with upwards of 40 attachments with 1/4" lag screws, many with sub-par sealants, statistically we would have seen drastically more problems, and we haven't. Roof leaks are exceedingly rare and minor. Granted, it's not the same as PV in many ways, so I would be careful about drawing any conclusions. I wish there was a better way for solar pool heat, but even the cheapest flashings can add 10-15% to a project, making it non-competitive in a very tight market, and metal flashings could cut into the polymer panels very easily. The "tried and true" method has been too successful to stray from. I'm sure there are unique experiences from around the country with snow, freeze/thaw cycles, expansion/contraction, and other phenomenon that could differ drastically from place to place. Maybe we're trying to shoehorn a single solution into a problem that has more than one answer. Jason Szumlanski On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 3:43 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > Here is a devils advocate question for everyone (*including myself*) who > is claiming "no leaks after x-years". > > Are we assuming "no leaks" because the home/system owner has not reported > any or because there are no water stains on the ceilings below the arrays > *or* are we actually looking in the attic and seeing that there are > absolutely NO water marks where the attachment points are? > I would think that there is a big difference? But having not gone back to > every install and actually getting up and looking around *inside the > attic*, would it not be presumptuous to assume that there have been no > leaks? > > *Benn Kilburn * > CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc > 6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7 > P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com > > > On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 1:52 PM, wrote: > >> I remember the "early days" of installing, which for us was early 1990's. >> We used stainless steel rod hangers straight into rafters, which left us >> with 4" threaded rod sticking up out of the roof. We used thru the roof for >> sealing under a nut and fender washer. I've visited a couple of those sites >> recently (still no leaks after over 25 yrs of production). By the way, we >> have changed our mounting methods since then......... >> >> Max Balchowsky >> Design Engineer >> Golden Bridge Development >> 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 >> Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 >> 760-403-6810 >> "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat Aug 29 13:11:54 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 11:11:54 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash In-Reply-To: References: <46175C88-2BF1-4D83-868A-D35D3223AC6F@gmail.com> <128983846.818744.1440618759416.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <55E1E7DA.1030407@solarray.com> Excellent point, sir. I have looked at quite a few from the attic, later when doing upgrades, and I haven't seen leaks. But NO, I have not carefully gone back on every install to confirm. No news is good news, but that still doesn't mean 100% leak free. Also, I'm working in a drier climate, where small leaks don't cause big problems. Actually many of the systems with L feet I've looked at are not even my own, and (horror) they were sealed with gobs of silicone. I'm doing an inspection on a place with hot water and PV on an shingle roof that is 15+ years old, L feet, no flashings, silicone, and I will do my best for the list, to get in there and really check from the attic side. Take photos if I can, and I'll loosen a few screws to check for any signs of rot around the screw hole. Really these days my favorite product might be a smallish flashing/ large L foot with butyl tape peel off on the bottom. It would go under the shingle above, so its an actual"flashing", but not so far up that you get into the next row of nails, or have to cut the shingle much. We also need to really look at the sealant above the flashing and make sure the shingle above the mount is sealed down properly if disturbed. I think trouble with shingle roofs starts when wind and rain can blow back up under a loose shingle. What is the correct method to seal a shingle back down anyway? Heatgun? More roof approved caulking? Chime in ye of more roofing knowledge. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 8/28/2015 1:43 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > Here is a devils advocate question for everyone (_including myself_) > who is claiming "no leaks after x-years". > > Are we assuming "no leaks" because the home/system owner has not > reported any or because there are no water stains on the ceilings > below the arrays *or* are we actually looking in the attic and seeing > that there are absolutely NO water marks where the attachment points are? > I would think that there is a big difference? But having not gone > back to every install and actually getting up and looking around > _inside the attic_, would it not be presumptuous to assume that there > have been no leaks? > > *Benn Kilburn * > CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc > 6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7 > P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com > > email facebook > twitter > linkedin > > google > > SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal > > > On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 1:52 PM, > wrote: > > I remember the "early days" of installing, which for us was early > 1990's. We used stainless steel rod hangers straight into rafters, > which left us with 4" threaded rod sticking up out of the roof. We > used thru the roof for sealing under a nut and fender washer. I've > visited a couple of those sites recently (still no leaks after > over 25 yrs of production). By the way, we have changed our > mounting methods since then......... > > Max Balchowsky > Design Engineer > Golden Bridge Development > 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 > Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 > 760-403-6810 > "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kjenergysystems at gmail.com Sat Aug 29 19:36:43 2015 From: kjenergysystems at gmail.com (Kurt Johnsen) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 19:36:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash In-Reply-To: <55E1E7DA.1030407@solarray.com> References: <46175C88-2BF1-4D83-868A-D35D3223AC6F@gmail.com> <128983846.818744.1440618759416.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <55E1E7DA.1030407@solarray.com> Message-ID: To me the reports of not seeing leaks is not terribly reassuring. It’s not surprising when you consider that enough water has to get past tightly compacted shingles under an L foot, travel between the threads and the wood of a tightly threaded lag bolt, and then saturate attic insulation enough to migrate through drywall to be “seen”. Even though my 5 year warranty will have passed, what worries me (here in Florida) is that after 5 or 10 years of no leaks has passed a storm comes through and peels the array off the roof because dry rot has set in around the lag bolts reducing the pull out resistance of the rafters. I like to be able to tell my customers that I always use engineered flashings designed for the specific purpose of preventing water from damaging their home. I don’t want to cut corners on the one thing that every customer fears the most. Besides, it is your only shot at not voiding a roofing warranty that they may have. Kurt Johnsen Kurt Johnsen Energy Systems NABCEP Certified PV Installer 621 SW 26th Place Gainesville, FL 32601 352-222-9495 On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 1:11 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > Excellent point, sir. I have looked at quite a few from the attic, later > when doing upgrades, and I haven't seen leaks. But NO, I have not > carefully gone back on every install to confirm. No news is good news, but > that still doesn't mean 100% leak free. Also, I'm working in a drier > climate, where small leaks don't cause big problems. Actually many of the > systems with L feet I've looked at are not even my own, and (horror) they > were sealed with gobs of silicone. > I'm doing an inspection on a place with hot water and PV on an shingle > roof that is 15+ years old, L feet, no flashings, silicone, and I will do > my best for the list, to get in there and really check from the attic > side. Take photos if I can, and I'll loosen a few screws to check for any > signs of rot around the screw hole. > Really these days my favorite product might be a smallish flashing/ large > L foot with butyl tape peel off on the bottom. It would go under the > shingle above, so its an actual"flashing", but not so far up that you get > into the next row of nails, or have to cut the shingle much. > We also need to really look at the sealant above the flashing and make > sure the shingle above the mount is sealed down properly if disturbed. I > think trouble with shingle roofs starts when wind and rain can blow back up > under a loose shingle. What is the correct method to seal a shingle back > down anyway? Heatgun? More roof approved caulking? > Chime in ye of more roofing knowledge. > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 > > On 8/28/2015 1:43 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > > Here is a devils advocate question for everyone (*including myself*) who > is claiming "no leaks after x-years". > > Are we assuming "no leaks" because the home/system owner has not reported > any or because there are no water stains on the ceilings below the arrays > *or* are we actually looking in the attic and seeing that there are > absolutely NO water marks where the attachment points are? > I would think that there is a big difference? But having not gone back to > every install and actually getting up and looking around *inside the > attic*, would it not be presumptuous to assume that there have been no > leaks? > > *Benn Kilburn * > CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc > 6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7 > P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com > [image: email] [image: facebook] > [image: twitter] > [image: linkedin] > > [image: google] > > [image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal] > > On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 1:52 PM, wrote: > >> I remember the "early days" of installing, which for us was early 1990's. >> We used stainless steel rod hangers straight into rafters, which left us >> with 4" threaded rod sticking up out of the roof. We used thru the roof for >> sealing under a nut and fender washer. I've visited a couple of those sites >> recently (still no leaks after over 25 yrs of production). By the way, we >> have changed our mounting methods since then......... >> >> Max Balchowsky >> Design Engineer >> Golden Bridge Development >> 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 >> Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 >> 760-403-6810 >> "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Aug 29 18:13:26 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 12:13:26 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash In-Reply-To: References: <55C4EC1C.1010706@solarray.com> <0dc101d0d13d$967f4dc0$c37de940$@millersolar.com> <013601d0df7b$bb6b3080$32419180$@com> Message-ID: I have been in attics and had to chase down water leaks, I have moved the hardware from older (15 + years) and there are a lot over leaks from the "before flashing days" and what I have seen is that once you remove the hardware, the bracket comes loose very easy as all or near all of the comp has cracked away from the surrounding material and there is a clear shot to the wood. Flashing is a must in my book Jerry On Aug 25, 2015 3:41 PM, "frenergy" wrote: > I've dancing around the perimeter of this discussion but now wish to make > that one more not to flash. There are many ways to do any job. I have been > attaching things to roofs and cutting holes in roofs for a couple trades > for 38 years and have yet to discover (or have a customer discover and > contact me) any damage from water. When attaching feet to a roof for a PV > rail system, I do not flash...I have but can't justify the time and cost > for my perceived lack of benefit. When I cut a hole in a roof, I flash. > > I think its all about the correct caulking for the particular kind > of roofing material (one type does not fit all), proper preparation of the > attachment location, insuring there is plenty of wood for the fastener, > laying a liberal bead and proper torque of the fastener. $.02 > > Thanks, > > Bill > Feather River Solar Electric > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 / 6544 fax > solar powered since 1982 > > > *From:* Daniel Young > > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 25, 2015 2:19 PM > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash > > Figured I would dig through the responses to this list topic since I > posted it as a poll, of sorts. > > > > My final count was: 10 votes to flash, 4 votes not to flash. > > > > Those who read all the responses probably know there are a few on either > side that would be OK with the other option. > > > > I’m still on the flashing side of things, though I might consider letting > the client have a choice. If I explain the differences, and show them the $ > difference, they can help make the decision (read that as? “take some > liability off of me J”). We do that now with US vs non-us made solar > modules. It’s not the same type of comparison here, but at least if the > client really wants a lower cost, they know how they’re getting it, and > future calls from the client should get tempered by the knowledge that they > chose the attachment method. > > > > Some really good points were raised on this topic, thanks to everyone who > participated. > > > > With Regards, > > > > Daniel Young, > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski > *Sent:* Monday, August 10, 2015 5:42 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash > > > > Although my mind is kinda' made up, this thread has really got me thinking > and researching. I scoured the NRCA manual, which does not really define > "penetration," but it does say in the shingle manual: > > > > "Penetration Flashings: There are many small penetrations that need to be > flashed into asphalt shingle roof > > systems, such as vent pipes, exhaust vents, exhaust fans, furnace or water > heater flue pipes, electrical standpipes and others." > > > > There is also a graphical figure showing these various penetrations. The > one thing these all have in common is that there is a substantial air gap > cut fully through the roof plane. > > > > It occurred to me that ridge caps and vents on shingle roofs use exposed > fasteners to nail or screw them to the decking. The NRCA manual says about > this: > > > > "Exposed fasteners should be sealed with elastomeric sealant or asphalt > roof cement on the last ridge piece of a run, at the intersection of hips > to a ridge and at the intersection of a ridge to another plane." > > > > Also read the Snow Guard section for metal roofs, which allows attachments > sealed to the flat part of the roof pan with sealants. > > > > Until the manual specifically addressed the solar "attachments" and > "fasteners" we are debating about, it's open to interpretation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 5:50 PM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > > http://www.oatey.com/brands/oatey/regions/canada/products/flashings/roof-flashings/retro-master-flash-roof-flashings > > > > Well, the manufacturer calls it a flashing, but I agree that were talking > semantics here. Flashing, in the code sense, is applied liberally in > practice. The washers on the thousands of screws on a 5V metal roof must be > flashings, otherwise these roofs do not meet IBC, and would be prohibited, > right? Same goes for vents with screwed and sealed boots... Unless you > don't call fasteners penetrations, in which case you can't hold solar > attachment fasteners to a different standard. There are plenty of metal > roof products that are sealed (flashed?) with EPDM gaskets or butyl tape > (Sunmodo, Eco-Fasten, S-5, etc.), that are successfully implemented in real > world scenarios. > > > > There are really two issues here: clarifying what is acceptable from a > code perspective, and industry best practices. Martini shaken or stirred? > We're probably not going to agree on a single solution as an industry. > > > > I have metal flashings on my shingle roof at home - it's my preference, > but I don't think it is a requirement, nor do I think "unflashed" fasteners > are completely unacceptable. > > > > > Jason > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 5:11 PM, Kurt Johnsen > wrote: > > Not that the names of things matter that much but imho "flashing" does > require an overlapping of some kind. An Oatey boot for a metal roof is more > of a bedded fitting than a flashing. It relies entirely on fasteners and a > sealing membrane whereas flashings rely mostly on natural forces like > gravity. Perhaps an experienced roofer weigh in on this. > > Kurt Johnsen > > > > On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 3:21 PM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > "If you place a flat object on top of roofing without an uphill material > lapping over the downhill object, you are not flashing. " > > > > By that logic, an Oatey boot is not a flashing for a plumbing vent on a > metal roof. > > > > Just sayin'... > > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 2:19 PM, William Miller < > william.miller at millersolar.com> wrote: > > Ray: > > > > I have to respectfully disagree with your semantics. A flashing is an > overlapping of roofing materials such that gravity will direct rain and > melt water off of the roof. This is a universally accepted waterproofing > method that does not depend on any sealant material. The concept is as > ancient as the first, crude, thatched roof. > > > > If you place a flat object on top of roofing without an uphill material > lapping over the downhill object, you are not flashing. > > > > What you have described is sealant-dependent weatherproofing. Regardless > of the quality of the sealant, or lack thereof, I don’t think you can call > it a flashed attachment. > > > > (The overarching point is a flashed attachment does not depend on a > sealant. Any sealant has a finite lifespan. Removing the sealant variable > from the equation results in more lasting installation.) > > Sincerely, > > > > William Miller > > > > > > [image: Gradient Cap_mini] > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Ray Walters > *Sent:* Friday, August 07, 2015 10:34 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash > > > > My opinion is that if the L foot has enough surface area it constitutes a > flashing, and that large flashings can actually cause more damage to the > roof than they prevent. > I also agree that an attachement doesn't constitute a penetration. I just > finished an install on a metal roof with hundreds of screw holes. We added > a few more screw holes, and ours have 20 times the sealant surface area. > We did run a 1" conduit through the roof, and since it was an actual > penetration, we used a very expensive flexible boot flashing. > Personally, I think we need about a 3"x3" or 4" x 4" L foot with a double > stick butyl tape on the bottom, and all will be well. > I realize that the OP was referring to asphalt, but I will flash other > roof types that don't do well with L feet ( like shake). > > > > ------------------------------ > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2015.0.6086 / Virus Database: 4392/10391 - Release Date: 08/07/15 > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Sun Aug 30 20:08:47 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 17:08:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Digital Hydrometer Message-ID: Friends: We are maintaining more vented battery systems. I am contemplating purchase of a digital hydrometer. Does anyone have any experience with one of these? Thanks in advance, William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Mon Aug 31 01:28:58 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 22:28:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Digital Hydrometer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55E3E61A.5040905@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Gary at IcarusSolarServices.com Mon Aug 31 09:34:37 2015 From: Gary at IcarusSolarServices.com (Gary Willett) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 08:34:37 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Digital Hydrometer In-Reply-To: <55E3E61A.5040905@sindelarsolar.com> References: <55E3E61A.5040905@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <55E457ED.3010107@IcarusSolarServices.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From garrison at solarserviceinc.com Mon Aug 31 09:36:32 2015 From: garrison at solarserviceinc.com (Garrison Riegel) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 08:36:32 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash In-Reply-To: References: <55C4EC1C.1010706@solarray.com> <0dc101d0d13d$967f4dc0$c37de940$@millersolar.com> <013601d0df7b$bb6b3080$32419180$@com> Message-ID: <006101d0e3f2$0d2b59c0$27820d40$@solarserviceinc.com> We see a lot of similar issues with old systems “flashed” with sealant alone. On the surface things look ok, but hardware is loose, rafters are rotted, and it’s not uncommon to find water stained rafters in the attic. See photos attached of a recent inspection I did. Connections were made using large 3”x3” U-brackets and lag bolts sealed to the roof with goop. Many connections had developed leaks, rafters rotted, and one had cracked. Customer had no idea that there was an issue. I’ve read some persuasive arguments against flashings on this thread, but in the end my experience is that there are far fewer issues with a quality, manufactured flashing on a comp shingle roof as opposed to sealant alone. In my opinion installer error is not a good reason to stop using flashings. Garrison Garrison Riegel PV Operations Manager | Solar Service Inc [p] 847-677-0950 | garrison at solarserviceinc.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Shafer Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2015 5:13 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash I have been in attics and had to chase down water leaks, I have moved the hardware from older (15 + years) and there are a lot over leaks from the "before flashing days" and what I have seen is that once you remove the hardware, the bracket comes loose very easy as all or near all of the comp has cracked away from the surrounding material and there is a clear shot to the wood. Flashing is a must in my book Jerry On Aug 25, 2015 3:41 PM, "frenergy" > wrote: I've dancing around the perimeter of this discussion but now wish to make that one more not to flash. There are many ways to do any job. I have been attaching things to roofs and cutting holes in roofs for a couple trades for 38 years and have yet to discover (or have a customer discover and contact me) any damage from water. When attaching feet to a roof for a PV rail system, I do not flash...I have but can't justify the time and cost for my perceived lack of benefit. When I cut a hole in a roof, I flash. I think its all about the correct caulking for the particular kind of roofing material (one type does not fit all), proper preparation of the attachment location, insuring there is plenty of wood for the fastener, laying a liberal bead and proper torque of the fastener. $.02 Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 / 6544 fax solar powered since 1982 From: Daniel Young To: 'RE-wrenches' Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 2:19 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash Figured I would dig through the responses to this list topic since I posted it as a poll, of sorts. My final count was: 10 votes to flash, 4 votes not to flash. Those who read all the responses probably know there are a few on either side that would be OK with the other option. I’m still on the flashing side of things, though I might consider letting the client have a choice. If I explain the differences, and show them the $ difference, they can help make the decision (read that as? “take some liability off of me :)”). We do that now with US vs non-us made solar modules. It’s not the same type of comparison here, but at least if the client really wants a lower cost, they know how they’re getting it, and future calls from the client should get tempered by the knowledge that they chose the attachment method. Some really good points were raised on this topic, thanks to everyone who participated. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 5:42 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash Although my mind is kinda' made up, this thread has really got me thinking and researching. I scoured the NRCA manual, which does not really define "penetration," but it does say in the shingle manual: "Penetration Flashings: There are many small penetrations that need to be flashed into asphalt shingle roof systems, such as vent pipes, exhaust vents, exhaust fans, furnace or water heater flue pipes, electrical standpipes and others." There is also a graphical figure showing these various penetrations. The one thing these all have in common is that there is a substantial air gap cut fully through the roof plane. It occurred to me that ridge caps and vents on shingle roofs use exposed fasteners to nail or screw them to the decking. The NRCA manual says about this: "Exposed fasteners should be sealed with elastomeric sealant or asphalt roof cement on the last ridge piece of a run, at the intersection of hips to a ridge and at the intersection of a ridge to another plane." Also read the Snow Guard section for metal roofs, which allows attachments sealed to the flat part of the roof pan with sealants. Until the manual specifically addressed the solar "attachments" and "fasteners" we are debating about, it's open to interpretation. On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 5:50 PM, Jason Szumlanski > wrote: http://www.oatey.com/brands/oatey/regions/canada/products/flashings/roof-flashings/retro-master-flash-roof-flashings Well, the manufacturer calls it a flashing, but I agree that were talking semantics here. Flashing, in the code sense, is applied liberally in practice. The washers on the thousands of screws on a 5V metal roof must be flashings, otherwise these roofs do not meet IBC, and would be prohibited, right? Same goes for vents with screwed and sealed boots... Unless you don't call fasteners penetrations, in which case you can't hold solar attachment fasteners to a different standard. There are plenty of metal roof products that are sealed (flashed?) with EPDM gaskets or butyl tape (Sunmodo, Eco-Fasten, S-5, etc.), that are successfully implemented in real world scenarios. There are really two issues here: clarifying what is acceptable from a code perspective, and industry best practices. Martini shaken or stirred? We're probably not going to agree on a single solution as an industry. I have metal flashings on my shingle roof at home - it's my preference, but I don't think it is a requirement, nor do I think "unflashed" fasteners are completely unacceptable. Jason On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 5:11 PM, Kurt Johnsen > wrote: Not that the names of things matter that much but imho "flashing" does require an overlapping of some kind. An Oatey boot for a metal roof is more of a bedded fitting than a flashing. It relies entirely on fasteners and a sealing membrane whereas flashings rely mostly on natural forces like gravity. Perhaps an experienced roofer weigh in on this. Kurt Johnsen On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 3:21 PM, Jason Szumlanski > wrote: "If you place a flat object on top of roofing without an uphill material lapping over the downhill object, you are not flashing. " By that logic, an Oatey boot is not a flashing for a plumbing vent on a metal roof. Just sayin'... Jason Szumlanski On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 2:19 PM, William Miller > wrote: Ray: I have to respectfully disagree with your semantics. A flashing is an overlapping of roofing materials such that gravity will direct rain and melt water off of the roof. This is a universally accepted waterproofing method that does not depend on any sealant material. The concept is as ancient as the first, crude, thatched roof. If you place a flat object on top of roofing without an uphill material lapping over the downhill object, you are not flashing. What you have described is sealant-dependent weatherproofing. Regardless of the quality of the sealant, or lack thereof, I don’t think you can call it a flashed attachment. (The overarching point is a flashed attachment does not depend on a sealant. Any sealant has a finite lifespan. Removing the sealant variable from the equation results in more lasting installation.) Sincerely, William Miller Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 10:34 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash My opinion is that if the L foot has enough surface area it constitutes a flashing, and that large flashings can actually cause more damage to the roof than they prevent. I also agree that an attachement doesn't constitute a penetration. I just finished an install on a metal roof with hundreds of screw holes. We added a few more screw holes, and ours have 20 times the sealant surface area. We did run a 1" conduit through the roof, and since it was an actual penetration, we used a very expensive flexible boot flashing. Personally, I think we need about a 3"x3" or 4" x 4" L foot with a double stick butyl tape on the bottom, and all will be well. I realize that the OP was referring to asphalt, but I will flash other roof types that don't do well with L feet ( like shake). _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6086 / Virus Database: 4392/10391 - Release Date: 08/07/15 _____ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Rafter Damage.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 286125 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Rafter Damage (2).jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 306525 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dana at solarwork.com Mon Aug 31 09:00:01 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 07:00:01 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NON Digital Hydrometer In-Reply-To: <55E3E61A.5040905@sindelarsolar.com> References: <55E3E61A.5040905@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <006c01d0e3ec$f33813f0$d9a83bd0$@com> I second this in the best tool ever category. The refractometer is extremely accurate, uses only a drop of electrolyte, cleaner, safer, & less intrusive. AND the darn thing will not break unless you drop it on the floor unlike how many glass hydrometers over the years. I would have to add easier to teach the clients who are interested in self battery service too. Mine are $25 at my local plumbing wholesaler. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2015 11:29 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Digital Hydrometer William, Why bother, when a refractometer is cheaper, does a better job, self-corrects for temperature, and won't be broken when you pull it off of your truck? Here's an example, quickly found on eBay, if you're not familiar with these: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Robinair-75240-Coolant-and-Battery-Refractometer-/13 1591979786?hash=item1ea37e430a &item=131591979786&vxp=mtr This has come up before on this list. Allan Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell On 8/30/2015 5:08 PM, William Miller wrote: Friends: We are maintaining more vented battery systems. I am contemplating purchase of a digital hydrometer. Does anyone have any experience with one of these? Thanks in advance, William Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Mon Aug 31 10:36:33 2015 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 08:36:33 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NON Digital Hydrometer In-Reply-To: <006c01d0e3ec$f33813f0$d9a83bd0$@com> References: <55E3E61A.5040905@sindelarsolar.com> <006c01d0e3ec$f33813f0$d9a83bd0$@com> Message-ID: I love my refractometer, but my Intro to PV students find it intimidating having battery acid so close the their eyes and clothes, even with proper PPE. I've found the Midnite Solar one a good compromise, and it is temperature corrected. http://midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=505&productCatName=Battery%20Accessories&productCat_ID=39&sortOrder=1&act=pc Dan Fink Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 7:00 AM, Dana wrote: > I second this in the best tool ever category. The refractometer is > extremely accurate, uses only a drop of electrolyte, cleaner, safer, & less > intrusive. AND the darn thing will not break unless you drop it on the > floor unlike how many glass hydrometers over the years. I would have to add > easier to teach the clients who are interested in self battery service too. > > Mine are $25 at my local plumbing wholesaler. > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel > > Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 > > E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com > > O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 > > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Allan Sindelar > *Sent:* Sunday, August 30, 2015 11:29 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Digital Hydrometer > > > > William, > Why bother, when a refractometer is cheaper, does a better job, > self-corrects for temperature, and won't be broken when you pull it off of > your truck? > Here's an example, quickly found on eBay, if you're not familiar with > these: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Robinair-75240-Coolant-and-Battery-Refractometer-/131591979786?hash=item1ea37e430a&item=131591979786&vxp=mtr > This has come up before on this list. > Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* > > > > On 8/30/2015 5:08 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Friends: > > > > We are maintaining more vented battery systems. I am contemplating > purchase of a digital hydrometer. Does anyone have any experience with one > of these? > > > > Thanks in advance, > > > > William Miller > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Mon Aug 31 10:58:27 2015 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Shasta Daiku) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 07:58:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NON Digital Hydrometer In-Reply-To: <006c01d0e3ec$f33813f0$d9a83bd0$@com> References: <55E3E61A.5040905@sindelarsolar.com> <006c01d0e3ec$f33813f0$d9a83bd0$@com> Message-ID: <5734B452-F4F1-4323-82B3-B08BE36C40FD@gmail.com> Hmm….Are they really safer? 1) Put rubber gloves on and remove battery caps. The chance of getting electrolyte on the gloves pretty high, especially after checking a couple dozen cells. 2) Extract electrolyte with pipet. Dribbles here and there 3) Place drop on Refractometer. More Dribbles possible. 4) Hold refractometer like a spyglass up to an eye for viewing, hopefully wearing eye protection 5) Wipe and repeat. Again possible many times. I just can’t get over the idea of willingly placing things that may have acid on them near my face. I recently consulted on a DIY/Wholesale Solar project and discovered that they ship a complimentary Refractometer with their battery banks. I was shocked and considered asking the group here for opinions. Michael > On Aug 31, 2015, at 6:00 AM, Dana wrote: > > I second this in the best tool ever category. The refractometer is extremely accurate, uses only a drop of electrolyte, cleaner, safer, & less intrusive. AND the darn thing will not break unless you drop it on the floor unlike how many glass hydrometers over the years. I would have to add easier to teach the clients who are interested in self battery service too. > Mine are $25 at my local plumbing wholesaler. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dana Orzel > Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 > E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com > O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar > Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2015 11:29 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Digital Hydrometer > > William, > Why bother, when a refractometer is cheaper, does a better job, self-corrects for temperature, and won't be broken when you pull it off of your truck? > Here's an example, quickly found on eBay, if you're not familiar with these: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Robinair-75240-Coolant-and-Battery-Refractometer-/131591979786?hash=item1ea37e430a&item=131591979786&vxp=mtr > This has come up before on this list. > Allan > > Allan Sindelar > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > 505 780-2738 cell > > > On 8/30/2015 5:08 PM, William Miller wrote: >> Friends: >> >> We are maintaining more vented battery systems. I am contemplating purchase of a digital hydrometer. Does anyone have any experience with one of these? >> >> Thanks in advance, >> >> William Miller > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Mon Aug 31 17:56:07 2015 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 15:56:07 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cable tray Message-ID: Hello wrenches, question about running conductors in cable tray. So we have our allowance in 690.31(C)(2) for using small PV Wire in cable tray for PV source and output circuits. I'm trying to determine what adjustment factor to apply when there are a bunch of small conductors. 392.80(A)(2)(a) and (b) both address single conductor cable in covered cable tray, but only refer to conductors from 1/0 to 500 kcmil, and 600 kcmil and up. I'm looking more at 40 or 50 12 AWG conductors (20 to 30 source circuits). The adjustment factors in 392.80(A)(2) are pretty hefty - only 60 to 70% of the rated ampacity, but as stated in Table 301.15(B)(17) (conductors in free air, so that helps). Any guidance would be much appreciated, and thanks for your time, Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 PV Curriculum Developer and Instructor Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Aug 31 17:45:44 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 14:45:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Digital Hydrometer Message-ID: Allan: I know this has come up before on the list, but I was hoping someone had gained experience since the last time this was posted. I am familiar with the optical refractometers. We order them by the dozen. I have taken thousands of readings with them. They have distinct difficulties in application: Over the years we have gained more large battery arrays to maintain like this one. These arrays have lots of cells, up to three strings at 48 volts nominal. That is 72 cells. Testing all of these cells every month (and we test that often) is very time consuming. You have to pull a sample from each battery, apply the sample, flip the cover carefully so as not to spray acid, hold the device up to the eye, note the reading, record the reading on paper, wipe down the instrument with a shop towel (that has ever-increasing toxicity), and then prepare another sample. I don’t like flipping acid around and putting it near my or my employees eyes. The display is hard to read with safety glasses. The display has poor resolution. The sample easily runs off the glass if you tilt the instrument. Acid gets on the paper and then vectors into the office. The entries have to be typed into a permanent record. All considered, a time consuming and dangerous process. I was hoping to hear from someone who actually uses one of the higher end digital units . It appears no one on this list has. William [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Allan Sindelar *Sent:* Sunday, August 30, 2015 10:29 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Digital Hydrometer William, Why bother, when a refractometer is cheaper, does a better job, self-corrects for temperature, and won't be broken when you pull it off of your truck? Here's an example, quickly found on eBay, if you're not familiar with these: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Robinair-75240-Coolant-and-Battery-Refractometer-/131591979786?hash=item1ea37e430a&item=131591979786&vxp=mtr This has come up before on this list. Allan *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* On 8/30/2015 5:08 PM, William Miller wrote: Friends: We are maintaining more vented battery systems. I am contemplating purchase of a digital hydrometer. Does anyone have any experience with one of these? Thanks in advance, William Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Aug 31 18:22:35 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 15:22:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Non-conductive module frames Message-ID: <08f8ed63c78b2b775b2ab1a7106e459f@mail.gmail.com> Friends: I thought I had sent a message about this to the list but I believe not. My apologies if this is a repeat. We have been having trouble with corrosion on an installation on a beachfront residence. Here is a link to a page I wrote about this problem. I am not a metallurgist, but I am thinking the problem is exacerbated by circulating currents. PV leakage is unavoidable. The currents will migrate to the metallic frames. When the frames come into contact with any other energized or bonded metal, electrolysis results. Regardless of the exact cause, metal is the affected material. I am wondering if the best practice would be to eliminate as much as possible any metallic components. This would mean plastic framed modules and plastic racking. I can source fiberglass strut easily. What I am looking for is plastic framed PV modules. Do any of you know of a manufacturer or distributor of such? Thanks in advance. William [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Mon Aug 31 20:35:07 2015 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 18:35:07 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Non-conductive module frames In-Reply-To: <08f8ed63c78b2b775b2ab1a7106e459f@mail.gmail.com> References: <08f8ed63c78b2b775b2ab1a7106e459f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: William, The only framed modules I've seen with a non-conductive frame are BIPV modules. They were about 34W each and integrated with concrete roof shingles/tiles. I believe the frame was polycarbonate. We ended up removing a 6kw system of these because some of the glass started delaminating around the edges. What about using Lumos frameless modules? Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 > On Aug 31, 2015, at 4:22 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Friends: > > I thought I had sent a message about this to the list but I believe not. My apologies if this is a repeat. > > We have been having trouble with corrosion on an installation on a beachfront residence. Here is a link to a page I wrote about this problem. > > I am not a metallurgist, but I am thinking the problem is exacerbated by circulating currents. PV leakage is unavoidable. The currents will migrate to the metallic frames. When the frames come into contact with any other energized or bonded metal, electrolysis results. > > Regardless of the exact cause, metal is the affected material. I am wondering if the best practice would be to eliminate as much as possible any metallic components. This would mean plastic framed modules and plastic racking. > > I can source fiberglass strut easily. What I am looking for is plastic framed PV modules. Do any of you know of a manufacturer or distributor of such? > > Thanks in advance. > > William > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solar1online at charter.net Mon Aug 31 20:37:09 2015 From: solar1online at charter.net (Bill Loesch) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 19:37:09 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Non-conductive module frames In-Reply-To: <08f8ed63c78b2b775b2ab1a7106e459f@mail.gmail.com> References: <08f8ed63c78b2b775b2ab1a7106e459f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <55E4F335.8040308@charter.net> Willi, I haven't yet heard of plastic framed modules (and candidly, I hope I never do). I have heard of frameless modules. Essentially glass on top and glass on bottom. No metal (except for the mounting hardware). Hopefully you don't want to use plastic for that. One of these manufacturers exibited at SPI Las Vegas and had a very large, very attractive booth demonstrating the applications of frameless modules. If no one else on the List can remember this exhibitor (or his competitors), I'm sure I can resurect my records and get this manu. to you. Best wishes, keep up the high standards, Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 On 8/31/2015 5:22 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Friends: > > I thought I had sent a message about this to the list but I believe > not. My apologies if this is a repeat. > > We have been having trouble with corrosion on an installation on a > beachfront residence. Here is a link > > to a page I wrote about this problem. > > I am not a metallurgist, but I am thinking the problem is exacerbated > by circulating currents. PV leakage is unavoidable. The currents > will migrate to the metallic frames. When the frames come into > contact with any other energized or bonded metal, electrolysis results. > > Regardless of the exact cause, metal is the affected material. I am > wondering if the best practice would be to eliminate as much as > possible any metallic components. This would mean plastic framed > modules and plastic racking. > > I can source fiberglass strut easily. What I am looking for is > plastic framed PV modules. Do any of you know of a manufacturer or > distributor of such? > > Thanks in advance. > > William > > Gradient Cap_mini > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dahlsolar at gmail.com Mon Aug 31 20:47:08 2015 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Solar) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 19:47:08 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Non-conductive module frames In-Reply-To: <08f8ed63c78b2b775b2ab1a7106e459f@mail.gmail.com> References: <08f8ed63c78b2b775b2ab1a7106e459f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <727517A1-6F8B-4898-8224-BC3836CC92CE@gmail.com> I am currently doing a lumos project and that is the only mod I can picture that comes close to fulfilling your need. We still have alum racking however.... Interesting question though. Jesse Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 31, 2015, at 5:22 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Friends: > > I thought I had sent a message about this to the list but I believe not. My apologies if this is a repeat. > > We have been having trouble with corrosion on an installation on a beachfront residence. Here is a link to a page I wrote about this problem. > > I am not a metallurgist, but I am thinking the problem is exacerbated by circulating currents. PV leakage is unavoidable. The currents will migrate to the metallic frames. When the frames come into contact with any other energized or bonded metal, electrolysis results. > > Regardless of the exact cause, metal is the affected material. I am wondering if the best practice would be to eliminate as much as possible any metallic components. This would mean plastic framed modules and plastic racking. > > I can source fiberglass strut easily. What I am looking for is plastic framed PV modules. Do any of you know of a manufacturer or distributor of such? > > Thanks in advance. > > William > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Aug 31 21:22:26 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 15:22:26 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Non-conductive module frames In-Reply-To: <08f8ed63c78b2b775b2ab1a7106e459f@mail.gmail.com> References: <08f8ed63c78b2b775b2ab1a7106e459f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: William LUMUS makes a glass on glass frame-less module, they say to use there racking but give them a call and see i don't have a email for them so google away good luck. BTW we work also very close to the ocean and we sometimes get salt build up on the micro inverters but i have not seen any corrosion on the modules nothing big anyway, are all the modules grounded to earth because like boats there is a discharge that can cause damage to the metallic parts and if there is not a good ground or one with either positive or negative voltage or charge excessive damage can result in electrolysis Jerry On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 12:22 PM, William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > > > I thought I had sent a message about this to the list but I believe not. > My apologies if this is a repeat. > > > > We have been having trouble with corrosion on an installation on a > beachfront residence. Here is a link > > to a page I wrote about this problem. > > > > I am not a metallurgist, but I am thinking the problem is exacerbated by > circulating currents. PV leakage is unavoidable. The currents will > migrate to the metallic frames. When the frames come into contact with any > other energized or bonded metal, electrolysis results. > > > > Regardless of the exact cause, metal is the affected material. I am > wondering if the best practice would be to eliminate as much as possible > any metallic components. This would mean plastic framed modules and > plastic racking. > > > > I can source fiberglass strut easily. What I am looking for is plastic > framed PV modules. Do any of you know of a manufacturer or distributor of > such? > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William > > > > [image: Gradient Cap_mini] > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dahlsolar at gmail.com Mon Aug 31 23:22:04 2015 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Solar) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 22:22:04 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Digital Hydrometer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A while back I asked about a dream system for my electrical/solar training program at the CC I teach at. I think an instrument like the one you linked to fits that bill. I sent an email requesting a price quote to the company just now. Checking the price via google seems a touch more expensive than I can justify spending but if they can come down slightly for a training institution I will purchase one and get back to you on how it works. Typically companies give a discount to schools so we shall see. Jesse Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 31, 2015, at 4:45 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Allan: > > I know this has come up before on the list, but I was hoping someone had gained experience since the last time this was posted. > > I am familiar with the optical refractometers. We order them by the dozen. I have taken thousands of readings with them. They have distinct difficulties in application: > > Over the years we have gained more large battery arrays to maintain like this one. These arrays have lots of cells, up to three strings at 48 volts nominal. That is 72 cells. Testing all of these cells every month (and we test that often) is very time consuming. You have to pull a sample from each battery, apply the sample, flip the cover carefully so as not to spray acid, hold the device up to the eye, note the reading, record the reading on paper, wipe down the instrument with a shop towel (that has ever-increasing toxicity), and then prepare another sample. I don’t like flipping acid around and putting it near my or my employees eyes. The display is hard to read with safety glasses. The display has poor resolution. The sample easily runs off the glass if you tilt the instrument. Acid gets on the paper and then vectors into the office. The entries have to be typed into a permanent record. All considered, a time consuming and dangerous process. > > I was hoping to hear from someone who actually uses one of the higher end digital units. It appears no one on this list has. > > William > > > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar > Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2015 10:29 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Digital Hydrometer > > William, > Why bother, when a refractometer is cheaper, does a better job, self-corrects for temperature, and won't be broken when you pull it off of your truck? > Here's an example, quickly found on eBay, if you're not familiar with these: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Robinair-75240-Coolant-and-Battery-Refractometer-/131591979786?hash=item1ea37e430a&item=131591979786&vxp=mtr > This has come up before on this list. > Allan > > Allan Sindelar > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > 505 780-2738 cell > > > On 8/30/2015 5:08 PM, William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > We are maintaining more vented battery systems. I am contemplating purchase of a digital hydrometer. Does anyone have any experience with one of these? > > Thanks in advance, > > William Miller > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 31 23:21:02 2015 From: billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net (billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 20:21:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cable tray In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02bd01d0e465$3cea9220$b6bfb660$@sbcglobal.net> Brian, I don’t know that I have a lot of good news for you. I have looked into this and I really don’t see a good way out of making some pretty conservative assumptions. You can read what I wrote in my IAEI article on Support of Exposed Cable earlier this year. I get into ampacity briefly though it is not the focus of the article. http://iaeimagazine.org/magazine/2015/04/14/support-of-exposed-cable-for-pv-systems-requirements-and-recommendations/ Bundling 50-60 conductor together should have a much worse impact than working off the free-air table. I believe the only way to evaluate that bundle is to treat it as if it is in a raceway. The lesser number of conductors (bundle of 3 or 4), the more it will begin to act like a free air cable. Bill. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Brian Mehalic Sent: Monday, August 31, 2015 2:56 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cable tray Hello wrenches, question about running conductors in cable tray. So we have our allowance in 690.31(C)(2) for using small PV Wire in cable tray for PV source and output circuits. I'm trying to determine what adjustment factor to apply when there are a bunch of small conductors. 392.80(A)(2)(a) and (b) both address single conductor cable in covered cable tray, but only refer to conductors from 1/0 to 500 kcmil, and 600 kcmil and up. I'm looking more at 40 or 50 12 AWG conductors (20 to 30 source circuits). The adjustment factors in 392.80(A)(2) are pretty hefty - only 60 to 70% of the rated ampacity, but as stated in Table 301.15(B)(17) (conductors in free air, so that helps). Any guidance would be much appreciated, and thanks for your time, Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 PV Curriculum Developer and Instructor Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Tue Sep 1 19:35:52 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 16:35:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Digital Hydrometer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55E63658.40603@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From frenergy at psln.com Wed Sep 2 20:22:42 2015 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2015 17:22:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Kyocera 120's References: <55E63658.40603@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <0CA54FB3C10140F6BA4D58D921C7D8B8@D8XG8YH1> Help needed in finding 4, Kyocera (or close) 120's (130's?). I have a customer looking to add a string of 4 to his existing 2 strings of 4 PVs each. Due to the relative difficulty in finding old "12 volt" PVs like this, anything close would be considered. Please contact offlist...and thanks. Bill Feather River Solar Electric 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 / 6544 fax www.frenergy.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Wed Sep 2 20:41:21 2015 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2015 20:41:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Kyocera 120's In-Reply-To: <0CA54FB3C10140F6BA4D58D921C7D8B8@D8XG8YH1> References: <55E63658.40603@sindelarsolar.com> <0CA54FB3C10140F6BA4D58D921C7D8B8@D8XG8YH1> Message-ID: <669611AA-C80B-4786-A5E4-985541F3C6D4@solarenergy.org> Kyocera still makes a similar 36 cell module: http://www.kyocerasolar.com/assets/001/5656.pdf Brian > On Sep 2, 2015, at 8:22 PM, frenergy wrote: > > Help needed in finding 4, Kyocera (or close) 120's (130's?). I have a customer looking to add a string of 4 to his existing 2 strings of 4 PVs each. Due to the relative difficulty in finding old "12 volt" PVs like this, anything close would be considered. Please contact offlist...and thanks. > > Bill > Feather River Solar Electric > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 / 6544 fax > www.frenergy.net > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rebekah.hren at gmail.com Thu Sep 3 11:06:48 2015 From: rebekah.hren at gmail.com (Rebekah Hren) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2015 09:06:48 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] off-grid propane tankless water heater advice Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, Any suggestions for trustworthy: -propane tankless water heater - draft-vented -battery (or hydro) ignition with no electrical hookups It seems to be a lot harder to find tankless water heaters which do not have a 120VAC power supply these days. It's not a big power draw, but it is a phantom load for off-grid and I'm not sure it's a great idea to manually switch the tank power supply on/off several times day? Thanks! Rebekah Hren -- Tel: 336.266.8800 NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 NC Licensed Electrical Contractor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From craig at northwindre.com Thu Sep 3 14:43:49 2015 From: craig at northwindre.com (Craig Gerald Buttke) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2015 13:43:49 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) Message-ID: <55E894E5.9000209@northwindre.com> How is everyone handling 690.7 (D) Circuits over 150 Volts to Ground. In one- and two- family dwellings, live parts in photovoltaic source circuits and photovoltaic output circuits over 150 volts to ground shall not be accessible to other than qualified persons while energized. If you have a commercial (non one or two-family dwelling) are you screening your ground mount arrays to keep people from touching live conductors PV wires)? Thanks for your thoughts -- Yours in Solardarity, Craig Gerald Buttke M:(715) 630-1227 O:(715) 630-6451 F:(715) 952-4501 North Wind Renewable Energy, LLC 1626C W Pearl Street Stevens Point, WI 54481 www.northwindre.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ NABCEP Certified PV Technical Sales Professional™ State of WI: Master Electrician -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From djibrilfall at gmail.com Thu Sep 3 16:06:37 2015 From: djibrilfall at gmail.com (James "Jibril" Gustafson) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2015 14:06:37 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] isophoton isf-250 Message-ID: Hello Climate Heroes, I am seeking 1 Isofoton 250 watt ISF-250 module for a client who lost 1 due to a burned up Tigo optimizer. If anyone has a line on one please contact me off-list. Thank You. Peace and Light, James "Jibril" Gustafson Tava Solar LLC Jibril at tavasolar.com 719-651-5780 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter.parrish at calsolareng.com Thu Sep 3 15:11:54 2015 From: peter.parrish at calsolareng.com (Peter Parrish) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2015 12:11:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius Warranty Problems In-Reply-To: <0192285E-7852-4416-A0EC-4F02725574A8@millersolar.com> References: <55CAB8E5.9010301@solarray.com> <72BE9403-D646-4FB1-8CAA-5A5B99F58812@millersolar.com> <0192285E-7852-4416-A0EC-4F02725574A8@millersolar.com> Message-ID: <041a01d0e67c$69566ff0$3c034fd0$@parrish@calsolareng.com> I have recently had a spate of warranty (and out of warranty) calls from customers with Fronius IG inverters (from the 2000 to the 5100). In working the problem, Fronius has had fairly good technical support (initially) BUT things have gone downhill from there. They have for example, sent a GFDI2 daughterboard without an RMA label and they have then been incapable of sending me an RMA label so that I can return the bad board. I am on my fifth request to have them do so. They have been 120 days (or more) in paying the reimbursement from warranty work. To add insult to injury, they just took $178.00 from our bank account for failure to return the daughterboard! Has anyone else found a deteriorating situation at Fronius and has anyone found at responsible department there that can put the train car back on the track? We can take the matter over to the bitching list if the matter warrants on-going discussion. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com NABCEP PV Professional 031806-26 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Sep 3 15:16:27 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2015 12:16:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) In-Reply-To: <55E894E5.9000209@northwindre.com> References: <55E894E5.9000209@northwindre.com> Message-ID: Craig: This issue has been on our radar lately. See this link: http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/Wire_shielding_on_ground_mounted_PV_arrays/No_shield.html William [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Craig Gerald Buttke *Sent:* Thursday, September 03, 2015 11:44 AM *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) How is everyone handling 690.7 (D) *Circuits over 150 Volts to Ground. *In one- and two- family dwellings, live parts in photovoltaic source circuits and photovoltaic output circuits over 150 volts to ground shall not be accessible to other than qualified persons while energized. If you have a commercial (non one or two-family dwelling) are you screening your ground mount arrays to keep people from touching live conductors PV wires)? Thanks for your thoughts -- Yours in Solardarity, Craig Gerald Buttke M:(715) 630-1227 O:(715) 630-6451 F:(715) 952-4501 North Wind Renewable Energy, LLC 1626C W Pearl Street Stevens Point, WI 54481 www.northwindre.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ NABCEP Certified PV Technical Sales Professional™ State of WI: Master Electrician -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Sep 3 16:56:36 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2015 10:56:36 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius Warranty Problems In-Reply-To: <55e8aeb9.a2fe420a.fe03.3504SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <55CAB8E5.9010301@solarray.com> <72BE9403-D646-4FB1-8CAA-5A5B99F58812@millersolar.com> <0192285E-7852-4416-A0EC-4F02725574A8@millersolar.com> <55e8aeb9.a2fe420a.fe03.3504SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: This is interesting our goodwill and warranty has been very good but we are dealing with them on the larger inverters and we have been sent out testing tools from them on comms issues. I hope your issue is not "things to come" good luck with getting the RMA Jerry On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 9:11 AM, Peter Parrish wrote: > I have recently had a spate of warranty (and out of warranty) calls from > customers with Fronius IG inverters (from the 2000 to the 5100). In working > the problem, Fronius has had fairly good technical support (initially) BUT > things have gone downhill from there. They have for example, sent a GFDI2 > daughterboard without an RMA label and they have then been incapable of > sending me an RMA label so that I can return the bad board. I am on my > fifth request to have them do so. They have been 120 days (or more) in > paying the reimbursement from warranty work. > > > > To add insult to injury, they just took $178.00 from our bank account for > failure to return the daughterboard! > > > > Has anyone else found a deteriorating situation at Fronius and has anyone > found at responsible department there that can put the train car back on > the track? > > > > We can take the matter over to the bitching list if the matter warrants > on-going discussion. > > > > - Peter > > > > Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. > > President, SolarGnosis > > 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. > > Suite 351 > > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > > (323) 839-6108 > > petertor at pobox.com > > NABCEP PV Professional 031806-26 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Thu Sep 3 17:16:37 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2015 15:16:37 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius Warranty Problems In-Reply-To: <041a01d0e67c$69566ff0$3c034fd0$@parrish@calsolareng.com> References: <55CAB8E5.9010301@solarray.com> <72BE9403-D646-4FB1-8CAA-5A5B99F58812@millersolar.com> <0192285E-7852-4416-A0EC-4F02725574A8@millersolar.com> <041a01d0e67c$69566ff0$3c034fd0$@parrish@calsolareng.com> Message-ID: <69B7AB57-B428-4F64-9CDC-B6A97A7D0625@starlightsolar.com> Peter, Fronius has some of the most ignorant people working for them. It took me over a year to receive payment for an inverter swap that they diagnosed as having failed. After I returned the old inverter they claimed nothing was wrong. Run from Fronius! Thank you, Larry On Sep 3, 2015, at 1:11 PM, Peter Parrish wrote: I have recently had a spate of warranty (and out of warranty) calls from customers with Fronius IG inverters (from the 2000 to the 5100). In working the problem, Fronius has had fairly good technical support (initially) BUT things have gone downhill from there. They have for example, sent a GFDI2 daughterboard without an RMA label and they have then been incapable of sending me an RMA label so that I can return the bad board. I am on my fifth request to have them do so. They have been 120 days (or more) in paying the reimbursement from warranty work. To add insult to injury, they just took $178.00 from our bank account for failure to return the daughterboard! Has anyone else found a deteriorating situation at Fronius and has anyone found at responsible department there that can put the train car back on the track? We can take the matter over to the bitching list if the matter warrants on-going discussion. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com NABCEP PV Professional 031806-26 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Thu Sep 3 17:17:29 2015 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2015 16:17:29 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] off-grid propane tankless water heater advice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Rebekah, Here in the mountains of Southern CO we work with tankless heaters a lot on off-grid systems. I know that you're trying to eliminate the phantom load of the electronically controlled heaters, but unless the application is for a seasonal cabin with a tiny PV system, I would get one of the modern electronic direct vent heaters. They work so much better than the non-electric ones, and they seem more reliable also. I've installed dozens of Rinnai and Wai-Wela (made in Japan by Paloma) tankless heaters, and as long as they are cleaned every year or two they are highly dependable. The consistency of water temperature and the quick response time is just in a different league from the old non-electric units. Many of the heaters I've installed have been in off-grid situations, and I've measured the standby consumption of Wai-Wela units at around 5W. It's not zero but it usually isn't a significant extra load and I think the advantages of the electronically-controlled units far outweigh the penalty of the standby consumption. The flexibility of the powered direct vent system is also a major advantage for ease of installation. Just my $.02 -Luke NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 CoSEIA Certified PV Installer Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO 81144 sgsrenewables at gmail.com 719.588.3044 www.sgsrenewables.com > On Sep 3, 2015, at 10:06, Rebekah Hren wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, > > Any suggestions for trustworthy: > > -propane tankless water heater > - draft-vented > -battery (or hydro) ignition with no electrical hookups > > It seems to be a lot harder to find tankless water heaters which do not have a 120VAC power supply these days. It's not a big power draw, but it is a phantom load for off-grid and I'm not sure it's a great idea to manually switch the tank power supply on/off several times day? > > Thanks! > Rebekah Hren > > > -- > Tel: 336.266.8800 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 > NC Licensed Electrical Contractor > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Sep 3 17:33:21 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2015 14:33:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius Warranty Problems In-Reply-To: <69B7AB57-B428-4F64-9CDC-B6A97A7D0625@starlightsolar.com> References: <55CAB8E5.9010301@solarray.com> <72BE9403-D646-4FB1-8CAA-5A5B99F58812@millersolar.com> <0192285E-7852-4416-A0EC-4F02725574A8@millersolar.com> <041a01d0e67c$69566ff0$3c034fd0$@parrish@calsolareng.com> <69B7AB57-B428-4F64-9CDC-B6A97A7D0625@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Our Fronius inverters have experienced about 500% failure rate. The management has spoken disparagingly about us to our customers. We've been done with Fronius for years. William > On Sep 3, 2015, at 2:16 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > > Peter, > > Fronius has some of the most ignorant people working for them. It took me over a year to receive payment for an inverter swap that they diagnosed as having failed. After I returned the old inverter they claimed nothing was wrong. Run from Fronius! > > Thank you, > > Larry > > > > On Sep 3, 2015, at 1:11 PM, Peter Parrish wrote: > > I have recently had a spate of warranty (and out of warranty) calls from customers with Fronius IG inverters (from the 2000 to the 5100). In working the problem, Fronius has had fairly good technical support (initially) BUT things have gone downhill from there. They have for example, sent a GFDI2 daughterboard without an RMA label and they have then been incapable of sending me an RMA label so that I can return the bad board. I am on my fifth request to have them do so. They have been 120 days (or more) in paying the reimbursement from warranty work. > > To add insult to injury, they just took $178.00 from our bank account for failure to return the daughterboard! > > Has anyone else found a deteriorating situation at Fronius and has anyone found at responsible department there that can put the train car back on the track? > > We can take the matter over to the bitching list if the matter warrants on-going discussion. > > - Peter > > Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. > President, SolarGnosis > 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. > Suite 351 > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > (323) 839-6108 > petertor at pobox.com > NABCEP PV Professional 031806-26 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solar1online at charter.net Fri Sep 4 03:33:13 2015 From: solar1online at charter.net (Bill Loesch) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 02:33:13 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] off-grid propane tankless water heater advice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55E94939.4070807@charter.net> Rebekah and Fellow Wrenches, None of the Big 5 _manufacturers_ of tankless water heaters are currently manufacturing natural draft tankless water heaters. Paloma stopped their production several years ago and the then, sole provider of natural draft machines-Bosch has earlier this year stopped production of all it's natural draft models. Chances are you can still locate units in the system today but all of the Big 5 natural draft machines are today - out of production. If by trustworthy you mean reliable, then you should not use hydro generated units in the same sentence as reliable or cost effective. There might be other manufacturers beyond the Big 5 (Bosch, Noritz, Paloma, Rinnai and Takagi) out there but you might want to talk to Ian W. about his success with a natural draft "off-brand". When you have the choice to use a standing pilot model, that is your most reliable and long term low cost/expense leader. If you are really serious about energy conservation you might follow the rest of world lead and use the included piezo igniter every time you wanted hot water and save even the pilot gas when you were not using hot water. Credit myopic/marketing driven energy efficiency rules with part of this demise and an industry that fits in well in a capitalist society with the remainder. Read Tom Lane's article http://solarindustrymag.com/e107_plugins/content/content.php?content.15632 in the current issue of Solar Industry Magazine regarding the current status of the solar thermal industry and his suggestions for alternatives. Sabine and I, in the '80's switched an electric tank in an all electric condo daily for over eight years and never had to even replace the breaker. In a gas storage tank water heater, rotating the gas valve between pilot and on accomplishes almost the same effect of using the storage tank as a batch heater. Best wishes, -- Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 On 9/3/2015 10:06 AM, Rebekah Hren wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > Any suggestions for trustworthy: > > -propane tankless water heater > - draft-vented > -battery (or hydro) ignition with no electrical hookups > > It seems to be a lot harder to find tankless water heaters which do > not have a 120VAC power supply these days. It's not a big power draw, > but it is a phantom load for off-grid and I'm not sure it's a great > idea to manually switch the tank power supply on/off several times day? > > Thanks! > Rebekah Hren > > > -- > Tel: 336.266.8800 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professionalâ„¢ 091209-85 > NC Licensed Electrical Contractor > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net Fri Sep 4 00:10:11 2015 From: billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net (billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2015 21:10:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) In-Reply-To: <55E894E5.9000209@northwindre.com> References: <55E894E5.9000209@northwindre.com> Message-ID: <018401d0e6c7$9946d1a0$cbd474e0$@sbcglobal.net> Craig, This one is easy to misinterpret. You missed the words “live parts”. This has been removed from the 2017 NEC because it is actually referring to load circuits being fed directly by a PV system on the dc side. All references to loads and batteries are being removed from 690. This is a complete non-issue. Bill. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Craig Gerald Buttke Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2015 11:44 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) How is everyone handling 690.7 (D) Circuits over 150 Volts to Ground. In one- and two- family dwellings, live parts in photovoltaic source circuits and photovoltaic output circuits over 150 volts to ground shall not be accessible to other than qualified persons while energized. If you have a commercial (non one or two-family dwelling) are you screening your ground mount arrays to keep people from touching live conductors PV wires)? Thanks for your thoughts -- Yours in Solardarity, Craig Gerald Buttke M:(715) 630-1227 O:(715) 630-6451 F:(715) 952-4501 North Wind Renewable Energy, LLC 1626C W Pearl Street Stevens Point, WI 54481 www.northwindre.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ NABCEP Certified PV Technical Sales Professional™ State of WI: Master Electrician --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gary at arp-solar.com Fri Sep 4 05:22:07 2015 From: gary at arp-solar.com (gary easton) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 05:22:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) In-Reply-To: <018401d0e6c7$9946d1a0$cbd474e0$@sbcglobal.net> References: <55E894E5.9000209@northwindre.com> <018401d0e6c7$9946d1a0$cbd474e0$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Bill Are you saying there is no requirement to shield wires on a ground array? On Friday, September 4, 2015, wrote: > Craig, > > > > This one is easy to misinterpret. You missed the words “live parts”. This > has been removed from the 2017 NEC because it is actually referring to load > circuits being fed directly by a PV system on the dc side. All references > to loads and batteries are being removed from 690. > > > > This is a complete non-issue. > > > > Bill. > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] > *On Behalf Of *Craig Gerald Buttke > *Sent:* Thursday, September 03, 2015 11:44 AM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) > > > > > > How is everyone handling 690.7 (D) > > *Circuits over 150 Volts to Ground. *In one- and two- family dwellings, > live parts in photovoltaic source circuits and photovoltaic output circuits > over 150 volts to ground shall not be accessible to other than qualified > persons while energized. > > > > If you have a commercial (non one or two-family dwelling) are you > screening your ground mount arrays to keep people from touching live > conductors PV wires)? > > Thanks for your thoughts > > -- > > Yours in Solardarity, > > > > Craig Gerald Buttke > > > > M:(715) 630-1227 > > O:(715) 630-6451 > > F:(715) 952-4501 > > > > North Wind Renewable Energy, LLC > > 1626C W Pearl Street > > Stevens Point, WI 54481 > > > > www.northwindre.com > > > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ > > NABCEP Certified PV Technical Sales Professional™ > > State of WI: Master Electrician > > > > ------------------------------ > [image: Avast logo] > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > -- Sent from Gmail Mobile -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From djibrilfall at gmail.com Fri Sep 4 11:47:27 2015 From: djibrilfall at gmail.com (James "Jibril" Gustafson) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 09:47:27 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius Warranty Problems In-Reply-To: <55e8aeb9.a2fe420a.fe03.3504SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <55CAB8E5.9010301@solarray.com> <72BE9403-D646-4FB1-8CAA-5A5B99F58812@millersolar.com> <0192285E-7852-4416-A0EC-4F02725574A8@millersolar.com> <55e8aeb9.a2fe420a.fe03.3504SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi There, So, for the last 5 years or so I have done an unreasonable number of RMA's on Fronius IG inverters, mostly installed by others. The tech support has been decent, the replacement inverters arrive quickly, and I have always received a check with in 30-60 days for the warranty work. It seems that the IG line is pretty problematic and the units that were installed 5-10 years ago are reaching the end of their life span. I've started to really hate those blue IG's, with their tight disconnect box, dangerous, difficult DC terminals, and the need to remove the whole unit, including disconnect box, for an RMA. Just this year I have done 7 RMA's on two IG's. One replacement inverter threw an error code as soon as we turned it on(damaged in shipping), another ground fault card was bad out of the box. I don't really mind the work, the checks are good, but it's frustrating and doesn't inspire confidence in customers. I have also done several RMA's on Fronius IG+ inverters. For these reasons I don't spec Fronius products for new installs. Also, where is the "bitching list"? I have a rant saved up for Tigo Energy. Thank You, Peace and Light, James "Jibril" Gustafson Tava Solar LLC jibril at tavasolar.com 719-651-5780 On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 1:11 PM, Peter Parrish wrote: > I have recently had a spate of warranty (and out of warranty) calls from > customers with Fronius IG inverters (from the 2000 to the 5100). In working > the problem, Fronius has had fairly good technical support (initially) BUT > things have gone downhill from there. They have for example, sent a GFDI2 > daughterboard without an RMA label and they have then been incapable of > sending me an RMA label so that I can return the bad board. I am on my > fifth request to have them do so. They have been 120 days (or more) in > paying the reimbursement from warranty work. > > > > To add insult to injury, they just took $178.00 from our bank account for > failure to return the daughterboard! > > > > Has anyone else found a deteriorating situation at Fronius and has anyone > found at responsible department there that can put the train car back on > the track? > > > > We can take the matter over to the bitching list if the matter warrants > on-going discussion. > > > > - Peter > > > > Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. > > President, SolarGnosis > > 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. > > Suite 351 > > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > > (323) 839-6108 > > petertor at pobox.com > > NABCEP PV Professional 031806-26 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Sep 4 11:44:10 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 08:44:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) In-Reply-To: References: <55E894E5.9000209@northwindre.com> <018401d0e6c7$9946d1a0$cbd474e0$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Gary: I think the issue of PV wiring behind module that are readily accessible is addressed in (2014) 690.31: *Where PV source and output circuits operating at maximum* *system voltages greater than 30 volts are installed in* *readily accessible locations, circuit conductors shall be* *guarded or installed in a raceway.* I am not sure what application the original poster had in mind, but this is the question I think you are asking. The interpretation to 690.31 seems clear to me: No one should be able to touch the conductors without resorting to a ladder, opening a locked gate or removing a protective panel. Readily accessible is defined thusly: *Capable of being * *reached quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections* *without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite* *to actions such as to use tools, to climb over or remove* *obstacles, or to resort to portable ladders, and so forth.* Implementing this is harder than it might seem. Lacking a fence, the installer must either use the flimsy solar-scrim product or fabricate his or her own shielding. We have put a fair amount of effort towards this. See link . William [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *gary easton *Sent:* Friday, September 04, 2015 2:22 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) Bill Are you saying there is no requirement to shield wires on a ground array? On Friday, September 4, 2015, wrote: Craig, This one is easy to misinterpret. You missed the words “live parts”. This has been removed from the 2017 NEC because it is actually referring to load circuits being fed directly by a PV system on the dc side. All references to loads and batteries are being removed from 690. This is a complete non-issue. Bill. *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] *On Behalf Of *Craig Gerald Buttke *Sent:* Thursday, September 03, 2015 11:44 AM *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) How is everyone handling 690.7 (D) *Circuits over 150 Volts to Ground. *In one- and two- family dwellings, live parts in photovoltaic source circuits and photovoltaic output circuits over 150 volts to ground shall not be accessible to other than qualified persons while energized. If you have a commercial (non one or two-family dwelling) are you screening your ground mount arrays to keep people from touching live conductors PV wires)? Thanks for your thoughts -- Yours in Solardarity, Craig Gerald Buttke M:(715) 630-1227 O:(715) 630-6451 F:(715) 952-4501 North Wind Renewable Energy, LLC 1626C W Pearl Street Stevens Point, WI 54481 www.northwindre.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ NABCEP Certified PV Technical Sales Professional™ State of WI: Master Electrician ------------------------------ [image: Avast logo] This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -- Sent from Gmail Mobile -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Sep 4 14:37:18 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 12:37:18 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) In-Reply-To: References: <55E894E5.9000209@northwindre.com> <018401d0e6c7$9946d1a0$cbd474e0$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <55E9E4DE.9010109@solarray.com> WilIiam; checked out your guards on your website, that looks really clean, but=20 also like a lot of work and expense. I'm still so surprised=20 manufacturers are not offering an option like that to their frame systems. My question: how come you didn't just fence the array? Shading issues=20 on the south? If fencing, what height of fence is considered adequate? 4 ft? 6 ft? R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 9/4/2015 9:44 AM, William Miller wrote: > > Gary: > > I think the issue of PV wiring behind module that are readily=20 > accessible is addressed in (2014) 690.31: > > /Where PV source and output circuits operating at maximum/ > > /system voltages greater than 30 volts are installed in/ > > /readily accessible locations, circuit conductors shall be/ > > /guarded or installed in a raceway./ > > I am not sure what application the original poster had in mind, but=20 > this is the question I think you are asking. The interpretation to=20 > 690.31 seems clear to me: No one should be able to touch the=20 > conductors without resorting to a ladder, opening a locked gate or=20 > removing a protective panel. Readily accessible is defined thusly: > > /Capable of being / > > /reached quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections/ > > /without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite/ > > /to actions such as to use tools, to climb over or remove/ > > /obstacles, or to resort to portable ladders, and so forth./ > > Implementing this is harder than it might seem. Lacking a fence, the=20 > installer must either use the flimsy solar-scrim product or fabricate=20 > his or her own shielding. We have put a fair amount of effort towards=20 > this. See link=20 > . > > William > > Gradient Cap_mini > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org=20 > ] *On Behalf Of=20 > *gary easton > *Sent:* Friday, September 04, 2015 2:22 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) > > Bill > > Are you saying there is no requirement to shield wires on a ground array? > > On Friday, September 4, 2015, > wrote: > > Craig, > > This one is easy to misinterpret. You missed the words =E2=80=9Clive part= s=E2=80=9D.=20 > This has been removed from the 2017 NEC because it is actually=20 > referring to load circuits being fed directly by a PV system on the dc=20 > side. All references to loads and batteries are being removed from 690. > > This is a complete non-issue. > > Bill. > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org=20 > ]=20 > *On Behalf Of *Craig Gerald Buttke > *Sent:* Thursday, September 03, 2015 11:44 AM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org=20 > > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) > > > > How is everyone handling 690.7 (D) > > *Circuits over 150 Volts to Ground. *In one- and two- family=20 > dwellings, live parts in photovoltaic source circuits and photovoltaic=20 > output circuits over 150 volts to ground shall not be accessible to=20 > other than qualified persons while energized. > > > > If you have a commercial (non one or two-family dwelling) are you=20 > screening your ground mount arrays to keep people from touching live=20 > conductors PV wires)? > > Thanks for your thoughts > > --=20 > Yours in Solardarity, > =20 > Craig Gerald Buttke > =20 > M:(715) 630-1227 > O:(715) 630-6451 > F:(715) 952-4501 > =20 > North Wind Renewable Energy, LLC > 1626C W Pearl Street > Stevens Point, WI 54481 > =20 > www.northwindre.com > =20 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional=E2=84=A2 > NABCEP Certified PV Technical Sales Professional=E2=84=A2 > State of WI: Master Electrician > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Avast logo > > =09 > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > > --=20 > Sent from Gmail Mobile > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Sep 4 15:08:46 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 12:08:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) In-Reply-To: <55E9E4DE.9010109@solarray.com> References: <55E894E5.9000209@northwindre.com> <018401d0e6c7$9946d1a0$cbd474e0$@sbcglobal.net> <55E9E4DE.9010109@solarray.com> Message-ID: Ray: 1. Why no fence? Aesthetics. Also costs may be a wash by the time you mobilize a fencing contractor. 2. I’d apply the same requirements to a fence as one would to an uncovered swimming pool. There are the same consequences if a child ends up in the wrong place. 3. Why bother? a. We figure the expense will decrease as we figure better design and implementation. Hasn’t yet. b. We care about safety. I figure we, as an industry, will kill a child by electrocution someday—it is a matter of probability. I hope it won’t be on one of our jobs. c. We hope, in some small way, we influence the industry to improve. 4. The industry has not developed solutions because there is no demand. There is no demand because AHJs don’t enforce the code. Thanks for the compliment. We have several new designs not yet featured on the web site. Check back next time this comes up. William PS: I am curious what Bill Brooks take on this is, but I don’t think I will agree with his interpretation. W [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Ray Walters *Sent:* Friday, September 04, 2015 11:37 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) WilIiam; checked out your guards on your website, that looks really clean, but also like a lot of work and expense. I'm still so surprised manufacturers are not offering an option like that to their frame systems. My question: how come you didn't just fence the array? Shading issues on the south? If fencing, what height of fence is considered adequate? 4 ft? 6 ft? R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 9/4/2015 9:44 AM, William Miller wrote: Gary: I think the issue of PV wiring behind module that are readily accessible is addressed in (2014) 690.31: *Where PV source and output circuits operating at maximum* *system voltages greater than 30 volts are installed in* *readily accessible locations, circuit conductors shall be* *guarded or installed in a raceway.* I am not sure what application the original poster had in mind, but this is the question I think you are asking. The interpretation to 690.31 seems clear to me: No one should be able to touch the conductors without resorting to a ladder, opening a locked gate or removing a protective panel. Readily accessible is defined thusly: *Capable of being * *reached quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections* *without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite* *to actions such as to use tools, to climb over or remove* *obstacles, or to resort to portable ladders, and so forth.* Implementing this is harder than it might seem. Lacking a fence, the installer must either use the flimsy solar-scrim product or fabricate his or her own shielding. We have put a fair amount of effort towards this. See link . William [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *gary easton *Sent:* Friday, September 04, 2015 2:22 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) Bill Are you saying there is no requirement to shield wires on a ground array? On Friday, September 4, 2015, wrote: Craig, This one is easy to misinterpret. You missed the words “live parts”. This has been removed from the 2017 NEC because it is actually referring to load circuits being fed directly by a PV system on the dc side. All references to loads and batteries are being removed from 690. This is a complete non-issue. Bill. *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] *On Behalf Of *Craig Gerald Buttke *Sent:* Thursday, September 03, 2015 11:44 AM *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) How is everyone handling 690.7 (D) *Circuits over 150 Volts to Ground. *In one- and two- family dwellings, live parts in photovoltaic source circuits and photovoltaic output circuits over 150 volts to ground shall not be accessible to other than qualified persons while energized. If you have a commercial (non one or two-family dwelling) are you screening your ground mount arrays to keep people from touching live conductors PV wires)? Thanks for your thoughts -- Yours in Solardarity, Craig Gerald Buttke M:(715) 630-1227 O:(715) 630-6451 F:(715) 952-4501 North Wind Renewable Energy, LLC 1626C W Pearl Street Stevens Point, WI 54481 www.northwindre.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ NABCEP Certified PV Technical Sales Professional™ State of WI: Master Electrician ------------------------------ [image: Avast logo] This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -- Sent from Gmail Mobile _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net Fri Sep 4 15:58:30 2015 From: billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net (billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 12:58:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) In-Reply-To: References: <55E894E5.9000209@northwindre.com> <018401d0e6c7$9946d1a0$cbd474e0$@sbcglobal.net> <55E9E4DE.9010109@solarray.com> Message-ID: <00e001d0e74c$13dbd850$3b9388f0$@sbcglobal.net> William, I’m shocked and offended (a tiny bit) that you would prejudice yourself to not agree with me ;-). First of all I have been heavily involved in the revising of the language in 690.31(A) to make it clear that we cannot walk up and touch cables operating at 600V. The term guarded is a defined term: Guarded. Covered, shielded, fenced, enclosed, or otherwise protected by means of suitable covers, casings, barriers, rails, screens, mats, or platforms to remove the likelihood of approach or contact by persons or objects to a point of danger. A fence actually does not prevent ready access (unless it does not have a gate), but the term guarded fixes that problem. The guarding means has to be approved by the AHJ, but many methods have been employed including mounting lattice work around the backside of fixed ground-mounted systems. Fences are best used for larger systems (over 50-100kW) whereas other methods—albeit labor intensive—are generally preferred for smaller installations (under 100 kW) No intelligent person would disagree with this proper interpretation of the NEC—including you. Bill. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Friday, September 04, 2015 12:09 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) Ray: 1. Why no fence? Aesthetics. Also costs may be a wash by the time you mobilize a fencing contractor. 2. I’d apply the same requirements to a fence as one would to an uncovered swimming pool. There are the same consequences if a child ends up in the wrong place. 3. Why bother? We figure the expense will decrease as we figure better design and implementation. Hasn’t yet. We care about safety. I figure we, as an industry, will kill a child by electrocution someday—it is a matter of probability. I hope it won’t be on one of our jobs. We hope, in some small way, we influence the industry to improve. 4. The industry has not developed solutions because there is no demand. There is no demand because AHJs don’t enforce the code. Thanks for the compliment. We have several new designs not yet featured on the web site. Check back next time this comes up. William PS: I am curious what Bill Brooks take on this is, but I don’t think I will agree with his interpretation. W Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Friday, September 04, 2015 11:37 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) WilIiam; checked out your guards on your website, that looks really clean, but also like a lot of work and expense. I'm still so surprised manufacturers are not offering an option like that to their frame systems. My question: how come you didn't just fence the array? Shading issues on the south? If fencing, what height of fence is considered adequate? 4 ft? 6 ft? R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 9/4/2015 9:44 AM, William Miller wrote: Gary: I think the issue of PV wiring behind module that are readily accessible is addressed in (2014) 690.31: Where PV source and output circuits operating at maximum system voltages greater than 30 volts are installed in readily accessible locations, circuit conductors shall be guarded or installed in a raceway. I am not sure what application the original poster had in mind, but this is the question I think you are asking. The interpretation to 690.31 seems clear to me: No one should be able to touch the conductors without resorting to a ladder, opening a locked gate or removing a protective panel. Readily accessible is defined thusly: Capable of being reached quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite to actions such as to use tools, to climb over or remove obstacles, or to resort to portable ladders, and so forth. Implementing this is harder than it might seem. Lacking a fence, the installer must either use the flimsy solar-scrim product or fabricate his or her own shielding. We have put a fair amount of effort towards this. See link . William Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of gary easton Sent: Friday, September 04, 2015 2:22 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) Bill Are you saying there is no requirement to shield wires on a ground array? On Friday, September 4, 2015, > wrote: Craig, This one is easy to misinterpret. You missed the words “live parts”. This has been removed from the 2017 NEC because it is actually referring to load circuits being fed directly by a PV system on the dc side. All references to loads and batteries are being removed from 690. This is a complete non-issue. Bill. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Craig Gerald Buttke Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2015 11:44 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) How is everyone handling 690.7 (D) Circuits over 150 Volts to Ground. In one- and two- family dwellings, live parts in photovoltaic source circuits and photovoltaic output circuits over 150 volts to ground shall not be accessible to other than qualified persons while energized. If you have a commercial (non one or two-family dwelling) are you screening your ground mount arrays to keep people from touching live conductors PV wires)? Thanks for your thoughts -- Yours in Solardarity, Craig Gerald Buttke M:(715) 630-1227 O:(715) 630-6451 F:(715) 952-4501 North Wind Renewable Energy, LLC 1626C W Pearl Street Stevens Point, WI 54481 www.northwindre.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ NABCEP Certified PV Technical Sales Professional™ State of WI: Master Electrician _____ This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -- Sent from Gmail Mobile _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Sep 4 17:21:05 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 14:21:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hazards of underground feeders Message-ID: <14e97846f6203c6c58974718c80cc075@mail.gmail.com> Dear Friends: Last week a local well technician was electrocuted. I had just met him in conjunction with a job we are about to do and realized right away he was a very nice person. He left behind a wife and two teenagers. Most tragic, his wife was working with him when it happened. The scenario is still not fully understood but here is what we do know: 1. The fellow was digging with a mini-excavator. 2. He knew buried lines were present and had turned off all circuits he thought were included. 3. He struck a power feeder. We don’t know if it was direct bury or in a conduit or if it was AC or DC. 4. Based on his impression the conductors were all dead, he jumped into the ditch with uninsulated dikes to cut the wire. 5. He had one hand on a t-post and the other on his pliers. 6. His wife grabbed his clothing but could not get him to release his grip. 7. An AT&T tech was nearby and donned hot gloves to pull him off the circuit. It was too late. This is an important issue for all of us. We work with high voltage regularly. We need to think about how to avoid this. I have connected with high voltage AC many times. My body always reacts to retract from contact. I got across high voltage DC once. I could not let go. I had to will myself to throw my arms down to break contact. The experience was frightening. On our crew we are integrating what we hope will be reflexive responses to given procedures. One is this: Every time you turn off a breaker to work on a circuit, the next thing you touch is a meter to check that the circuit is de-energized. Two: Don’t trust your inductive tester. It will not detect DC. It will not always indicated voltage present. This accident was at a local winery. Many wineries in this region have ground-mounted PV systems, many remote from the main service, therefore they have underground feeders. Most are string configured systems meaning the feeders are high voltage. It occurs to me that the uninformed worker might assume that turning off all the circuit breakers at the meter will de-energize a circuit, should it be compromised. Turning of the AC breakers would not de-energize a DC PV feeder. This is a problem. I spoke with another well technician about this . He was not aware of the safety issues associated with PV feeders. What to do? Here are a few suggestions: 1. Mark all conduits with bury tape 12” above the conduit. This does require extra work, you have to make two runs backfilling. 2. Sign the meter panel with an indication that opening all the circuit breakers will not de-energize all circuits on the property 3. Include your contact number so you can easily be contacted to reinforce the steps needed to be taken to excavate safely. 4. Always include disconnecting means at a ground-mount array. This issue is specific to excavation operations, but this reminds me of why I am so picky about wire shielding on ground mount arrays. This tragedy could easily happen to a child climbing on a ground-mount rack. Please add your thoughts on how to best manage the safety issues presented. William [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Sep 4 17:36:43 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 14:36:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) In-Reply-To: <00e001d0e74c$13dbd850$3b9388f0$@sbcglobal.net> References: <55E894E5.9000209@northwindre.com> <018401d0e6c7$9946d1a0$cbd474e0$@sbcglobal.net> <55E9E4DE.9010109@solarray.com> <00e001d0e74c$13dbd850$3b9388f0$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <5c6f2825527baf4d5a2597c41fa04601@mail.gmail.com> Bill: I apologize that I assumed incorrectly. Thank you for your assessment. May I quote you to our AHJ? Sincerely, William [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net *Sent:* Friday, September 04, 2015 12:59 PM *To:* 'RE-wrenches' *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) William, I’m shocked and offended (a tiny bit) that you would prejudice yourself to not agree with me ;-). First of all I have been heavily involved in the revising of the language in 690.31(A) to make it clear that we cannot walk up and touch cables operating at 600V. The term guarded is a defined term: *Guarded. *Covered, shielded, fenced, enclosed, or otherwise protected by means of suitable covers, casings, barriers, rails, screens, mats, or platforms to remove the likelihood of approach or contact by persons or objects to a point of danger. A fence actually does not prevent ready access (unless it does not have a gate), but the term guarded fixes that problem. The guarding means has to be approved by the AHJ, but many methods have been employed including mounting lattice work around the backside of fixed ground-mounted systems. Fences are best used for larger systems (over 50-100kW) whereas other methods—albeit labor intensive—are generally preferred for smaller installations (under 100 kW) No intelligent person would disagree with this proper interpretation of the NEC—including you. Bill. *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] *On Behalf Of *William Miller *Sent:* Friday, September 04, 2015 12:09 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) Ray: 1. Why no fence? Aesthetics. Also costs may be a wash by the time you mobilize a fencing contractor. 2. I’d apply the same requirements to a fence as one would to an uncovered swimming pool. There are the same consequences if a child ends up in the wrong place. 3. Why bother? We figure the expense will decrease as we figure better design and implementation. Hasn’t yet. We care about safety. I figure we, as an industry, will kill a child by electrocution someday—it is a matter of probability. I hope it won’t be on one of our jobs. We hope, in some small way, we influence the industry to improve. 4. The industry has not developed solutions because there is no demand. There is no demand because AHJs don’t enforce the code. Thanks for the compliment. We have several new designs not yet featured on the web site. Check back next time this comes up. William PS: I am curious what Bill Brooks take on this is, but I don’t think I will agree with his interpretation. W [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Ray Walters *Sent:* Friday, September 04, 2015 11:37 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) WilIiam; checked out your guards on your website, that looks really clean, but also like a lot of work and expense. I'm still so surprised manufacturers are not offering an option like that to their frame systems. My question: how come you didn't just fence the array? Shading issues on the south? If fencing, what height of fence is considered adequate? 4 ft? 6 ft? R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 9/4/2015 9:44 AM, William Miller wrote: Gary: I think the issue of PV wiring behind module that are readily accessible is addressed in (2014) 690.31: *Where PV source and output circuits operating at maximum* *system voltages greater than 30 volts are installed in* *readily accessible locations, circuit conductors shall be* *guarded or installed in a raceway.* I am not sure what application the original poster had in mind, but this is the question I think you are asking. The interpretation to 690.31 seems clear to me: No one should be able to touch the conductors without resorting to a ladder, opening a locked gate or removing a protective panel. Readily accessible is defined thusly: *Capable of being * *reached quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections* *without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite* *to actions such as to use tools, to climb over or remove* *obstacles, or to resort to portable ladders, and so forth.* Implementing this is harder than it might seem. Lacking a fence, the installer must either use the flimsy solar-scrim product or fabricate his or her own shielding. We have put a fair amount of effort towards this. See link . William [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *gary easton *Sent:* Friday, September 04, 2015 2:22 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) Bill Are you saying there is no requirement to shield wires on a ground array? On Friday, September 4, 2015, wrote: Craig, This one is easy to misinterpret. You missed the words “live parts”. This has been removed from the 2017 NEC because it is actually referring to load circuits being fed directly by a PV system on the dc side. All references to loads and batteries are being removed from 690. This is a complete non-issue. Bill. *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] *On Behalf Of *Craig Gerald Buttke *Sent:* Thursday, September 03, 2015 11:44 AM *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) How is everyone handling 690.7 (D) *Circuits over 150 Volts to Ground. *In one- and two- family dwellings, live parts in photovoltaic source circuits and photovoltaic output circuits over 150 volts to ground shall not be accessible to other than qualified persons while energized. If you have a commercial (non one or two-family dwelling) are you screening your ground mount arrays to keep people from touching live conductors PV wires)? Thanks for your thoughts -- Yours in Solardarity, Craig Gerald Buttke M:(715) 630-1227 O:(715) 630-6451 F:(715) 952-4501 North Wind Renewable Energy, LLC 1626C W Pearl Street Stevens Point, WI 54481 www.northwindre.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ NABCEP Certified PV Technical Sales Professional™ State of WI: Master Electrician ------------------------------ [image: Avast logo] This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -- Sent from Gmail Mobile _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ------------------------------ [image: Avast logo] This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net Sat Sep 5 17:20:36 2015 From: billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net (billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net) Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 14:20:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) In-Reply-To: <5c6f2825527baf4d5a2597c41fa04601@mail.gmail.com> References: <55E894E5.9000209@northwindre.com> <018401d0e6c7$9946d1a0$cbd474e0$@sbcglobal.net> <55E9E4DE.9010109@solarray.com> <00e001d0e74c$13dbd850$3b9388f0$@sbcglobal.net> <5c6f2825527baf4d5a2597c41fa04601@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <024201d0e820$b6209310$2261b930$@sbcglobal.net> William, You can always quote me to an AHJ, as long as I actually said it or wrote it. I have been accused of saying all kinds of things that I never said—people just misunderstood what I said and “quoted” me incorrectly. All the best—and stay safe. Always tragic to hear of electrocutions—most are so preventable as this one clearly was. Never, ever assume that a circuit is off. I know you warned against inductive sensors, but they should still be used as one of several methods to detect voltage. I just watched a video about a guy who thought he was testing a 480V circuit when it was really a 12kV circuit. The fireball caught him on fire and burned him to death. The meter was the problem. An inductive sensor would have saved his life. There is no single method for safety. Bill. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Friday, September 04, 2015 2:37 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) Bill: I apologize that I assumed incorrectly. Thank you for your assessment. May I quote you to our AHJ? Sincerely, William Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net Sent: Friday, September 04, 2015 12:59 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) William, I’m shocked and offended (a tiny bit) that you would prejudice yourself to not agree with me ;-). First of all I have been heavily involved in the revising of the language in 690.31(A) to make it clear that we cannot walk up and touch cables operating at 600V. The term guarded is a defined term: Guarded. Covered, shielded, fenced, enclosed, or otherwise protected by means of suitable covers, casings, barriers, rails, screens, mats, or platforms to remove the likelihood of approach or contact by persons or objects to a point of danger. A fence actually does not prevent ready access (unless it does not have a gate), but the term guarded fixes that problem. The guarding means has to be approved by the AHJ, but many methods have been employed including mounting lattice work around the backside of fixed ground-mounted systems. Fences are best used for larger systems (over 50-100kW) whereas other methods—albeit labor intensive—are generally preferred for smaller installations (under 100 kW) No intelligent person would disagree with this proper interpretation of the NEC—including you. Bill. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Friday, September 04, 2015 12:09 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) Ray: 1. Why no fence? Aesthetics. Also costs may be a wash by the time you mobilize a fencing contractor. 2. I’d apply the same requirements to a fence as one would to an uncovered swimming pool. There are the same consequences if a child ends up in the wrong place. 3. Why bother? We figure the expense will decrease as we figure better design and implementation. Hasn’t yet. We care about safety. I figure we, as an industry, will kill a child by electrocution someday—it is a matter of probability. I hope it won’t be on one of our jobs. We hope, in some small way, we influence the industry to improve. 4. The industry has not developed solutions because there is no demand. There is no demand because AHJs don’t enforce the code. Thanks for the compliment. We have several new designs not yet featured on the web site. Check back next time this comes up. William PS: I am curious what Bill Brooks take on this is, but I don’t think I will agree with his interpretation. W Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Friday, September 04, 2015 11:37 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) WilIiam; checked out your guards on your website, that looks really clean, but also like a lot of work and expense. I'm still so surprised manufacturers are not offering an option like that to their frame systems. My question: how come you didn't just fence the array? Shading issues on the south? If fencing, what height of fence is considered adequate? 4 ft? 6 ft? R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 9/4/2015 9:44 AM, William Miller wrote: Gary: I think the issue of PV wiring behind module that are readily accessible is addressed in (2014) 690.31: Where PV source and output circuits operating at maximum system voltages greater than 30 volts are installed in readily accessible locations, circuit conductors shall be guarded or installed in a raceway. I am not sure what application the original poster had in mind, but this is the question I think you are asking. The interpretation to 690.31 seems clear to me: No one should be able to touch the conductors without resorting to a ladder, opening a locked gate or removing a protective panel. Readily accessible is defined thusly: Capable of being reached quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite to actions such as to use tools, to climb over or remove obstacles, or to resort to portable ladders, and so forth. Implementing this is harder than it might seem. Lacking a fence, the installer must either use the flimsy solar-scrim product or fabricate his or her own shielding. We have put a fair amount of effort towards this. See link . William Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of gary easton Sent: Friday, September 04, 2015 2:22 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) Bill Are you saying there is no requirement to shield wires on a ground array? On Friday, September 4, 2015, > wrote: Craig, This one is easy to misinterpret. You missed the words “live parts”. This has been removed from the 2017 NEC because it is actually referring to load circuits being fed directly by a PV system on the dc side. All references to loads and batteries are being removed from 690. This is a complete non-issue. Bill. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Craig Gerald Buttke Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2015 11:44 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) How is everyone handling 690.7 (D) Circuits over 150 Volts to Ground. In one- and two- family dwellings, live parts in photovoltaic source circuits and photovoltaic output circuits over 150 volts to ground shall not be accessible to other than qualified persons while energized. If you have a commercial (non one or two-family dwelling) are you screening your ground mount arrays to keep people from touching live conductors PV wires)? Thanks for your thoughts -- Yours in Solardarity, Craig Gerald Buttke M:(715) 630-1227 O:(715) 630-6451 F:(715) 952-4501 North Wind Renewable Energy, LLC 1626C W Pearl Street Stevens Point, WI 54481 www.northwindre.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ NABCEP Certified PV Technical Sales Professional™ State of WI: Master Electrician _____ This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -- Sent from Gmail Mobile _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _____ This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Sep 6 14:35:50 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay peltz) Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2015 11:35:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hazards of underground feeders In-Reply-To: <14e97846f6203c6c58974718c80cc075@mail.gmail.com> References: <14e97846f6203c6c58974718c80cc075@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear William, I like all of your ideas, but they have one thing in common, they are all passive. All the placards/labels/signs in the world won't prevent someone from not reading or acting or miss understanding them. So I totally agree with the NEC that we need automatic disconnects that prevent such events in the future. I think this kind of sad event is the reason for the NEC to require array/string level disconnect. >From what I've heard and I'm sure others are well more versed than I, but we will see module level shutdown required in 2017 NEC, and I for one welcome that. jay peltz power sent: 11.35am 9/6/15 On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 2:21 PM, William Miller wrote: > Dear Friends: > > > > Last week a local well technician was electrocuted. I had just met him in > conjunction with a job we are about to do and realized right away he was a > very nice person. He left behind a wife and two teenagers. Most tragic, > his wife was working with him when it happened. > > > > The scenario is still not fully understood but here is what we do know: > > > > 1. The fellow was digging with a mini-excavator. > > 2. He knew buried lines were present and had turned off all circuits > he thought were included. > > 3. He struck a power feeder. We don’t know if it was direct bury or > in a conduit or if it was AC or DC. > > 4. Based on his impression the conductors were all dead, he jumped > into the ditch with uninsulated dikes to cut the wire. > > 5. He had one hand on a t-post and the other on his pliers. > > 6. His wife grabbed his clothing but could not get him to release his > grip. > > 7. An AT&T tech was nearby and donned hot gloves to pull him off the > circuit. It was too late. > > > > This is an important issue for all of us. We work with high voltage > regularly. We need to think about how to avoid this. > > > > I have connected with high voltage AC many times. My body always reacts > to retract from contact. I got across high voltage DC once. I could not > let go. I had to will myself to throw my arms down to break contact. The > experience was frightening. > > > > On our crew we are integrating what we hope will be reflexive responses to > given procedures. > > > > One is this: Every time you turn off a breaker to work on a circuit, the > next thing you touch is a meter to check that the circuit is de-energized. > > Two: Don’t trust your inductive tester. It will not detect DC. It will > not always indicated voltage present. > > > > This accident was at a local winery. Many wineries in this region have > ground-mounted PV systems, many remote from the main service, therefore > they have underground feeders. Most are string configured systems meaning > the feeders are high voltage. > > > > It occurs to me that the uninformed worker might assume that turning off > all the circuit breakers at the meter will de-energize a circuit, should it > be compromised. Turning of the AC breakers would not de-energize a DC PV > feeder. This is a problem. > > > > I spoke with another well technician about this . He was not aware of the > safety issues associated with PV feeders. > > > > What to do? Here are a few suggestions: > > > > 1. Mark all conduits with bury tape 12” above the conduit. This does > require extra work, you have to make two runs backfilling. > > 2. Sign the meter panel with an indication that opening all the > circuit breakers will not de-energize all circuits on the property > > 3. Include your contact number so you can easily be contacted to > reinforce the steps needed to be taken to excavate safely. > > 4. Always include disconnecting means at a ground-mount array. > > > > This issue is specific to excavation operations, but this reminds me of > why I am so picky about wire shielding on ground mount arrays. This > tragedy could easily happen to a child climbing on a ground-mount rack. > > > > Please add your thoughts on how to best manage the safety issues presented. > > > > William > > > > [image: Gradient Cap_mini] > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Jay Peltz Peltz Power jay.peltz at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Wed Sep 9 09:45:21 2015 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 09:45:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Snow Guards Message-ID: Hey Wrenchers, I'm looking into snow guards for an array that would shed snow right into a driveway. So far I'm only familiar with Alpine. If anyone has other recommendations let me know? I haven't had to use any sort of snow guard so far, but I guess I should be prepared for winter production to really take a hit? Adam Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies 4872 State Route 9G Germantown NY, 12526 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Wed Sep 9 10:16:38 2015 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 07:16:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Snow Guards References: Message-ID: <48ABC2F0DEAC457C9D270443EA041139@D8XG8YH1> is it a metal roof, comp? pitch? where is the bottom of the array with respect to the bottom of the roof. How much snow do you get there? Bill Feather River Solar Electric ----- Original Message ----- From: AE Solar To: RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2015 6:45 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Snow Guards Hey Wrenchers, I'm looking into snow guards for an array that would shed snow right into a driveway. So far I'm only familiar with Alpine. If anyone has other recommendations let me know? I haven't had to use any sort of snow guard so far, but I guess I should be prepared for winter production to really take a hit? Adam Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies 4872 State Route 9G Germantown NY, 12526 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Wed Sep 9 10:50:21 2015 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 10:50:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Snow Guards In-Reply-To: <48ABC2F0DEAC457C9D270443EA041139@D8XG8YH1> References: <48ABC2F0DEAC457C9D270443EA041139@D8XG8YH1> Message-ID: Bill, It's a comp roof @ 30 degrees. The array could be as close as 20" to the bottom edge of the roof. Two rows of panels in portrait on two different roof sections. It's a 7.2kW system. We are in NY and snow seems to be completely variable these last few years but looks like the average has been about 60" traditionally. The snowguards were an afterthought, and I'm not sure if I can switch the panels to run in landscape...which would be preferable if snow is going to shed slower. Adam Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies 4872 State Route 9G Germantown NY, 12526 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 10:16 AM, frenergy wrote: > is it a metal roof, comp? pitch? where is the bottom of the array with > respect to the bottom of the roof. How much snow do you get there? > > Bill > Feather River Solar Electric > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* AE Solar > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 09, 2015 6:45 AM > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Snow Guards > > Hey Wrenchers, > > I'm looking into snow guards for an array that would shed snow right into > a driveway. So far I'm only familiar with Alpine. If anyone has other > recommendations let me know? > > I haven't had to use any sort of snow guard so far, but I guess I should > be prepared for winter production to really take a hit? > > Adam > > Adam Katzman > Autonomous Energies > 4872 State Route 9G > Germantown NY, 12526 > www.autonomousenergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Wed Sep 9 13:31:15 2015 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 13:31:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Snow Guards In-Reply-To: References: <48ABC2F0DEAC457C9D270443EA041139@D8XG8YH1> Message-ID: As an aside, I often notice arrays that fill a roof (gutter to ridge) that are often located in places I would assume it would not be good for snow to shed (i.e. a walkway or driveway). I'm wondering if this is something that is communicated with customers? Do those of you in snowy areas sacrifice size of an array to compensate for this or just come to an understanding with a customer that this is a hazard they (or their cars) could face. Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies 4872 State Route 9G Germantown NY, 12526 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 10:50 AM, AE Solar wrote: > Bill, > > It's a comp roof @ 30 degrees. The array could be as close as 20" to the > bottom edge of the roof. Two rows of panels in portrait on two different > roof sections. It's a 7.2kW system. We are in NY and snow seems to be > completely variable these last few years but looks like the average has > been about 60" traditionally. > > The snowguards were an afterthought, and I'm not sure if I can switch the > panels to run in landscape...which would be preferable if snow is going to > shed slower. > > Adam > > Adam Katzman > Autonomous Energies > 4872 State Route 9G > Germantown NY, 12526 > www.autonomousenergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > > On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 10:16 AM, frenergy wrote: > >> is it a metal roof, comp? pitch? where is the bottom of the array with >> respect to the bottom of the roof. How much snow do you get there? >> >> Bill >> Feather River Solar Electric >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* AE Solar >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 09, 2015 6:45 AM >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Snow Guards >> >> Hey Wrenchers, >> >> I'm looking into snow guards for an array that would shed snow right into >> a driveway. So far I'm only familiar with Alpine. If anyone has other >> recommendations let me know? >> >> I haven't had to use any sort of snow guard so far, but I guess I should >> be prepared for winter production to really take a hit? >> >> Adam >> >> Adam Katzman >> Autonomous Energies >> 4872 State Route 9G >> Germantown NY, 12526 >> www.autonomousenergies.com >> (518) 567-1468 >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Wed Sep 9 14:40:32 2015 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 11:40:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Snow Guards References: <48ABC2F0DEAC457C9D270443EA041139@D8XG8YH1> Message-ID: <6ECB6911430F4B2CBF15F9525C0F9B3A@D8XG8YH1> Adam, Many roofs in our area here in the Sierra are metal and shed snow in less desirable locations around the house....part of living at this elevation. Different people deal with it in a variety of ways one of which is a snow shovel, another is snow brakes or heat tape (ouch) and everything in between. The snow brakes I've used are this style (not necessarily recommending this product) http://www.amazon.com/Commercial-Snow-Guards-Perfect-Gaskets/dp/B00V5J6VHG/ref=pd_sim_sbs_60_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=075AS4H9PRYQ252M2A6V&dpSrc=sims&dpST=_AC_UL160_SR160%2C160_ I'm not sure mounting the PVs in landscape is a better option in this instance. As I understand your installation, if the customer absolutely does not want to deal with snow sliding off the array, I would probably install snow brakes a foot below the lower edge of the array...assuming that 20" of comp at the bottom is not enough to prevent it from sliding....because its not. I know some people have had issues with frames being torn off the bottom of PVs from sliding snow, but I think they get more snow than you do. Its too late (?) now but if a 1-2" gap was left between the rows, a custom-made brake could have been made to be mounted below the lower edge of top row and protrude up just a couple inches above the plane of the array to take some of the load of the snow off of the lower snow brakes/PVs. My thoughts are predicated on the assumption that the 60" you mentioned is total for the year, not at one time. The best scenario would be to convince the customer that relieving the array of the snow (let it slide) is the best option for power output and reducing the number of holes in his roof for attaching the snow brakes. "If you buy this PV system, it comes with a free snow shovel" What a deal. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: AE Solar To: RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2015 10:31 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Snow Guards As an aside, I often notice arrays that fill a roof (gutter to ridge) that are often located in places I would assume it would not be good for snow to shed (i.e. a walkway or driveway). I'm wondering if this is something that is communicated with customers? Do those of you in snowy areas sacrifice size of an array to compensate for this or just come to an understanding with a customer that this is a hazard they (or their cars) could face. Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies 4872 State Route 9G Germantown NY, 12526 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 10:50 AM, AE Solar wrote: Bill, It's a comp roof @ 30 degrees. The array could be as close as 20" to the bottom edge of the roof. Two rows of panels in portrait on two different roof sections. It's a 7.2kW system. We are in NY and snow seems to be completely variable these last few years but looks like the average has been about 60" traditionally. The snowguards were an afterthought, and I'm not sure if I can switch the panels to run in landscape...which would be preferable if snow is going to shed slower. Adam Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies 4872 State Route 9G Germantown NY, 12526 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 10:16 AM, frenergy wrote: is it a metal roof, comp? pitch? where is the bottom of the array with respect to the bottom of the roof. How much snow do you get there? Bill Feather River Solar Electric ----- Original Message ----- From: AE Solar To: RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2015 6:45 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Snow Guards Hey Wrenchers, I'm looking into snow guards for an array that would shed snow right into a driveway. So far I'm only familiar with Alpine. If anyone has other recommendations let me know? I haven't had to use any sort of snow guard so far, but I guess I should be prepared for winter production to really take a hit? Adam Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies 4872 State Route 9G Germantown NY, 12526 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Sep 9 19:06:34 2015 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2015 19:06:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Morningstar PWM Message-ID: <20150909230656.E8CC9100B7@che.dreamhost.com> Hello Wrenches, I have a Morningstar PWM 45 that doesn't drop out of absorb. It is set with dip switches to absorb at 29.2 V and stays constant around 29.1. It has stayed at 29.1 for several hours straight, and goes right back to that voltage in the morning. Tech support says the controller is working correctly. Have any of you seen this, or conversely have you seen the Morningstar drop into float after a reasonable amount of time? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at harvesthesun.com Wed Sep 9 21:55:51 2015 From: eric at harvesthesun.com (SunHarvest) Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 18:55:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hazards of underground feeders In-Reply-To: References: <14e97846f6203c6c58974718c80cc075@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Sorry to hear about that tragedy William. As a volunteer firefighter, (and of course a huge proponent of solar safety), I'm 100% supportive of, and encourage the use of "rapid" shut-down right at the module. Eric Stikes Founding Director, GoodSun Solar A 501(C)(3) CA. Non-profit Corp. 001.530.798.3738 (cell) www.GoodSun.life [sent via pigeon...or cell phone] > On Sep 6, 2015, at 11:35 AM, jay peltz wrote: > > Dear William, > > I like all of your ideas, but they have one thing in common, they are all passive. All the placards/labels/signs in the world won't prevent someone from not reading or acting or miss understanding them. So I totally agree with the NEC that we need automatic disconnects that prevent such events in the future. > > I think this kind of sad event is the reason for the NEC to require array/string level disconnect. > From what I've heard and I'm sure others are well more versed than I, but we will see module level shutdown required in 2017 NEC, and I for one welcome that. > > jay > > peltz power > sent: 11.35am 9/6/15 > > > > > >> On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 2:21 PM, William Miller wrote: >> Dear Friends: >> >> >> >> Last week a local well technician was electrocuted. I had just met him in conjunction with a job we are about to do and realized right away he was a very nice person. He left behind a wife and two teenagers. Most tragic, his wife was working with him when it happened. >> >> >> >> The scenario is still not fully understood but here is what we do know: >> >> >> >> 1. The fellow was digging with a mini-excavator. >> >> 2. He knew buried lines were present and had turned off all circuits he thought were included. >> >> 3. He struck a power feeder. We don’t know if it was direct bury or in a conduit or if it was AC or DC. >> >> 4. Based on his impression the conductors were all dead, he jumped into the ditch with uninsulated dikes to cut the wire. >> >> 5. He had one hand on a t-post and the other on his pliers. >> >> 6. His wife grabbed his clothing but could not get him to release his grip. >> >> 7. An AT&T tech was nearby and donned hot gloves to pull him off the circuit. It was too late. >> >> >> >> This is an important issue for all of us. We work with high voltage regularly. We need to think about how to avoid this. >> >> >> >> I have connected with high voltage AC many times. My body always reacts to retract from contact. I got across high voltage DC once. I could not let go. I had to will myself to throw my arms down to break contact. The experience was frightening. >> >> >> >> On our crew we are integrating what we hope will be reflexive responses to given procedures. >> >> >> >> One is this: Every time you turn off a breaker to work on a circuit, the next thing you touch is a meter to check that the circuit is de-energized. >> >> Two: Don’t trust your inductive tester. It will not detect DC. It will not always indicated voltage present. >> >> >> >> This accident was at a local winery. Many wineries in this region have ground-mounted PV systems, many remote from the main service, therefore they have underground feeders. Most are string configured systems meaning the feeders are high voltage. >> >> >> >> It occurs to me that the uninformed worker might assume that turning off all the circuit breakers at the meter will de-energize a circuit, should it be compromised. Turning of the AC breakers would not de-energize a DC PV feeder. This is a problem. >> >> >> >> I spoke with another well technician about this . He was not aware of the safety issues associated with PV feeders. >> >> >> >> What to do? Here are a few suggestions: >> >> >> >> 1. Mark all conduits with bury tape 12” above the conduit. This does require extra work, you have to make two runs backfilling. >> >> 2. Sign the meter panel with an indication that opening all the circuit breakers will not de-energize all circuits on the property >> >> 3. Include your contact number so you can easily be contacted to reinforce the steps needed to be taken to excavate safely. >> >> 4. Always include disconnecting means at a ground-mount array. >> >> >> >> This issue is specific to excavation operations, but this reminds me of why I am so picky about wire shielding on ground mount arrays. This tragedy could easily happen to a child climbing on a ground-mount rack. >> >> >> >> Please add your thoughts on how to best manage the safety issues presented. >> >> >> >> William >> >> >> >> >> Lic 773985 >> millersolar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > Jay Peltz > Peltz Power > jay.peltz at gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Sep 9 20:46:58 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 17:46:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) In-Reply-To: <024201d0e820$b6209310$2261b930$@sbcglobal.net> References: <55E894E5.9000209@northwindre.com> <018401d0e6c7$9946d1a0$cbd474e0$@sbcglobal.net> <55E9E4DE.9010109@solarray.com> <00e001d0e74c$13dbd850$3b9388f0$@sbcglobal.net> <5c6f2825527baf4d5a2597c41fa04601@mail.gmail.com> <024201d0e820$b6209310$2261b930$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <93513de56ee52a966f9adc066a388b71@mail.gmail.com> Bill: How right you are. I spoke with Mike Stoker of the County of San Luis Obispo today and he told me that both you and Mike Holt are saying that guards are not required on readily accessible wiring. I sent him your recent email to me on the subject. He may be in touch. If you want to write him, his email is mstoker at co.slo.ca.us. I looked on Mike Holt’s site and did not see anything from Mike about wire guarding. I wrote to Mike and asked him directly. I will let you know what I learn. William [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net *Sent:* Saturday, September 05, 2015 2:21 PM *To:* 'RE-wrenches' *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) William, You can always quote me to an AHJ, as long as I actually said it or wrote it. I have been accused of saying all kinds of things that I never said—people just misunderstood what I said and “quoted” me incorrectly. All the best—and stay safe. Always tragic to hear of electrocutions—most are so preventable as this one clearly was. Never, ever assume that a circuit is off. I know you warned against inductive sensors, but they should still be used as one of several methods to detect voltage. I just watched a video about a guy who thought he was testing a 480V circuit when it was really a 12kV circuit. The fireball caught him on fire and burned him to death. The meter was the problem. An inductive sensor would have saved his life. There is no single method for safety. Bill. *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] *On Behalf Of *William Miller *Sent:* Friday, September 04, 2015 2:37 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) Bill: I apologize that I assumed incorrectly. Thank you for your assessment. May I quote you to our AHJ? Sincerely, William [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net *Sent:* Friday, September 04, 2015 12:59 PM *To:* 'RE-wrenches' *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) William, I’m shocked and offended (a tiny bit) that you would prejudice yourself to not agree with me ;-). First of all I have been heavily involved in the revising of the language in 690.31(A) to make it clear that we cannot walk up and touch cables operating at 600V. The term guarded is a defined term: *Guarded. *Covered, shielded, fenced, enclosed, or otherwise protected by means of suitable covers, casings, barriers, rails, screens, mats, or platforms to remove the likelihood of approach or contact by persons or objects to a point of danger. A fence actually does not prevent ready access (unless it does not have a gate), but the term guarded fixes that problem. The guarding means has to be approved by the AHJ, but many methods have been employed including mounting lattice work around the backside of fixed ground-mounted systems. Fences are best used for larger systems (over 50-100kW) whereas other methods—albeit labor intensive—are generally preferred for smaller installations (under 100 kW) No intelligent person would disagree with this proper interpretation of the NEC—including you. Bill. *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] *On Behalf Of *William Miller *Sent:* Friday, September 04, 2015 12:09 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) Ray: 1. Why no fence? Aesthetics. Also costs may be a wash by the time you mobilize a fencing contractor. 2. I’d apply the same requirements to a fence as one would to an uncovered swimming pool. There are the same consequences if a child ends up in the wrong place. 3. Why bother? We figure the expense will decrease as we figure better design and implementation. Hasn’t yet. We care about safety. I figure we, as an industry, will kill a child by electrocution someday—it is a matter of probability. I hope it won’t be on one of our jobs. We hope, in some small way, we influence the industry to improve. 4. The industry has not developed solutions because there is no demand. There is no demand because AHJs don’t enforce the code. Thanks for the compliment. We have several new designs not yet featured on the web site. Check back next time this comes up. William PS: I am curious what Bill Brooks take on this is, but I don’t think I will agree with his interpretation. W [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Ray Walters *Sent:* Friday, September 04, 2015 11:37 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) WilIiam; checked out your guards on your website, that looks really clean, but also like a lot of work and expense. I'm still so surprised manufacturers are not offering an option like that to their frame systems. My question: how come you didn't just fence the array? Shading issues on the south? If fencing, what height of fence is considered adequate? 4 ft? 6 ft? R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 9/4/2015 9:44 AM, William Miller wrote: Gary: I think the issue of PV wiring behind module that are readily accessible is addressed in (2014) 690.31: *Where PV source and output circuits operating at maximum* *system voltages greater than 30 volts are installed in* *readily accessible locations, circuit conductors shall be* *guarded or installed in a raceway.* I am not sure what application the original poster had in mind, but this is the question I think you are asking. The interpretation to 690.31 seems clear to me: No one should be able to touch the conductors without resorting to a ladder, opening a locked gate or removing a protective panel. Readily accessible is defined thusly: *Capable of being * *reached quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections* *without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite* *to actions such as to use tools, to climb over or remove* *obstacles, or to resort to portable ladders, and so forth.* Implementing this is harder than it might seem. Lacking a fence, the installer must either use the flimsy solar-scrim product or fabricate his or her own shielding. We have put a fair amount of effort towards this. See link . William [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *gary easton *Sent:* Friday, September 04, 2015 2:22 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) Bill Are you saying there is no requirement to shield wires on a ground array? On Friday, September 4, 2015, wrote: Craig, This one is easy to misinterpret. You missed the words “live parts”. This has been removed from the 2017 NEC because it is actually referring to load circuits being fed directly by a PV system on the dc side. All references to loads and batteries are being removed from 690. This is a complete non-issue. Bill. *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] *On Behalf Of *Craig Gerald Buttke *Sent:* Thursday, September 03, 2015 11:44 AM *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) How is everyone handling 690.7 (D) *Circuits over 150 Volts to Ground. *In one- and two- family dwellings, live parts in photovoltaic source circuits and photovoltaic output circuits over 150 volts to ground shall not be accessible to other than qualified persons while energized. If you have a commercial (non one or two-family dwelling) are you screening your ground mount arrays to keep people from touching live conductors PV wires)? Thanks for your thoughts -- Yours in Solardarity, Craig Gerald Buttke M:(715) 630-1227 O:(715) 630-6451 F:(715) 952-4501 North Wind Renewable Energy, LLC 1626C W Pearl Street Stevens Point, WI 54481 www.northwindre.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ NABCEP Certified PV Technical Sales Professional™ State of WI: Master Electrician ------------------------------ [image: Avast logo] This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -- Sent from Gmail Mobile _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ------------------------------ [image: Avast logo] This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com ------------------------------ [image: Avast logo] This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dyoung at dovetailsolar.com Thu Sep 10 11:58:16 2015 From: dyoung at dovetailsolar.com (Daniel Young) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 11:58:16 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Snow Guards In-Reply-To: <6ECB6911430F4B2CBF15F9525C0F9B3A@D8XG8YH1> References: <48ABC2F0DEAC457C9D270443EA041139@D8XG8YH1> <6ECB6911430F4B2CBF15F9525C0F9B3A@D8XG8YH1> Message-ID: <004301d0ebe1$81dcbb00$85963100$@com> Most of our area in Ohio does not get that much snow, so we’ve only ended up using guards a small handful of times. We used Alpine when the racking allowed, and on a recent Quickrack job we actually used these (http://www.roofthings.com/snow-defender-4500-snow-guard-color-coated.html ) We attached them right to the array skirt, to stop snow from leaving the array. We went with metal snow breaks to try to match the lifetime of the array (will the clear plastic guards really last? Or is it so cheap to buy them that you just plan on them going bad and spend another $50 to replace them a few years down the road?). The array has not seen winter yet, but in Cincinnati it could be a few winters before we get enough snow to see if it works. The client was worried about it though, and it didn’t break the bank to put them on, so we did. We also warned him that it would lower his wintertime production slightly since it would intentionally hold snow on the array. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of frenergy Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2015 2:41 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Snow Guards Adam, Many roofs in our area here in the Sierra are metal and shed snow in less desirable locations around the house....part of living at this elevation. Different people deal with it in a variety of ways one of which is a snow shovel, another is snow brakes or heat tape (ouch) and everything in between. The snow brakes I've used are this style (not necessarily recommending this product) http://www.amazon.com/Commercial-Snow-Guards-Perfect-Gaskets/dp/B00V5J6VHG/ref=pd_sim_sbs_60_1?ie=UTF8 &refRID=075AS4H9PRYQ252M2A6V&dpSrc=sims&dpST=_AC_UL160_SR160%2C160_ I'm not sure mounting the PVs in landscape is a better option in this instance. As I understand your installation, if the customer absolutely does not want to deal with snow sliding off the array, I would probably install snow brakes a foot below the lower edge of the array...assuming that 20" of comp at the bottom is not enough to prevent it from sliding....because its not. I know some people have had issues with frames being torn off the bottom of PVs from sliding snow, but I think they get more snow than you do. Its too late (?) now but if a 1-2" gap was left between the rows, a custom-made brake could have been made to be mounted below the lower edge of top row and protrude up just a couple inches above the plane of the array to take some of the load of the snow off of the lower snow brakes/PVs. My thoughts are predicated on the assumption that the 60" you mentioned is total for the year, not at one time. The best scenario would be to convince the customer that relieving the array of the snow (let it slide) is the best option for power output and reducing the number of holes in his roof for attaching the snow brakes. "If you buy this PV system, it comes with a free snow shovel" What a deal. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: AE Solar To: RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2015 10:31 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Snow Guards As an aside, I often notice arrays that fill a roof (gutter to ridge) that are often located in places I would assume it would not be good for snow to shed (i.e. a walkway or driveway). I'm wondering if this is something that is communicated with customers? Do those of you in snowy areas sacrifice size of an array to compensate for this or just come to an understanding with a customer that this is a hazard they (or their cars) could face. Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies 4872 State Route 9G Germantown NY, 12526 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 10:50 AM, AE Solar wrote: Bill, It's a comp roof @ 30 degrees. The array could be as close as 20" to the bottom edge of the roof. Two rows of panels in portrait on two different roof sections. It's a 7.2kW system. We are in NY and snow seems to be completely variable these last few years but looks like the average has been about 60" traditionally. The snowguards were an afterthought, and I'm not sure if I can switch the panels to run in landscape...which would be preferable if snow is going to shed slower. Adam Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies 4872 State Route 9G Germantown NY, 12526 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 10:16 AM, frenergy wrote: is it a metal roof, comp? pitch? where is the bottom of the array with respect to the bottom of the roof. How much snow do you get there? Bill Feather River Solar Electric ----- Original Message ----- From: AE Solar To: RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2015 6:45 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Snow Guards Hey Wrenchers, I'm looking into snow guards for an array that would shed snow right into a driveway. So far I'm only familiar with Alpine. If anyone has other recommendations let me know? I haven't had to use any sort of snow guard so far, but I guess I should be prepared for winter production to really take a hit? Adam Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies 4872 State Route 9G Germantown NY, 12526 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 _____ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _____ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6086 / Virus Database: 4409/10606 - Release Date: 09/09/15 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 206358 bytes Desc: not available URL: From louis at solarcowboyz.com Thu Sep 10 15:22:02 2015 From: louis at solarcowboyz.com (louis at solarcowboyz.com) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 12:22:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Morningstar PWM Message-ID: <20150910122202.9cbc0dcf5f80a0dc982e07761d51a7ae.b75e4e7230.wbe@email05.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Thu Sep 10 16:36:53 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 14:36:53 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Morningstar PWM In-Reply-To: <20150909230656.E8CC9100B7@che.dreamhost.com> References: <20150909230656.E8CC9100B7@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <71415FB0-53F2-4E4C-ABB5-B2D25AB55696@starlightsolar.com> Drake, Quote: “...and goes right back to that voltage in the morning.” How quickly does the battery voltage rise to 29.1 in the morning? If the batteries are sulfated heavily, you may see a very fast rise in voltage but you will also see a loss of capacity. Batteries in the early stage of sulfation may have a difficult time reaching the constant voltage setpoint and remain in bulk charge continuously. What is the size of the PV array and battery bank? If the array is too small for the bank, this is the time of year (less sun hours per day) that we start to receive complaints about the battery not getting charged. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Sep 9, 2015, at 5:06 PM, Drake wrote: Hello Wrenches, I have a Morningstar PWM 45 that doesn't drop out of absorb. It is set with dip switches to absorb at 29.2 V and stays constant around 29.1. It has stayed at 29.1 for several hours straight, and goes right back to that voltage in the morning. Tech support says the controller is working correctly. Have any of you seen this, or conversely have you seen the Morningstar drop into float after a reasonable amount of time? Thanks, Drake <>Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Sep 10 19:04:59 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 17:04:59 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) In-Reply-To: <93513de56ee52a966f9adc066a388b71@mail.gmail.com> References: <55E894E5.9000209@northwindre.com> <018401d0e6c7$9946d1a0$cbd474e0$@sbcglobal.net> <55E9E4DE.9010109@solarray.com> <00e001d0e74c$13dbd850$3b9388f0$@sbcglobal.net> <5c6f2825527baf4d5a2597c41fa04601@mail.gmail.com> <024201d0e820$b6209310$2261b930$@sbcglobal.net> <93513de56ee52a966f9adc066a388b71@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <55F20C9B.3030301@solarray.com> I'm confused again. Do we need to guard ground mount arrays or not? I=20 thought it was clear that we did need to guard the array wiring. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 9/9/2015 6:46 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Bill: > > How right you are. I spoke with Mike Stoker of the County of San Luis=20 > Obispo today and he told me that both you and Mike Holt are saying=20 > that guards are not required on readily accessible wiring. I sent him=20 > your recent email to me on the subject. He may be in touch. If you=20 > want to write him, his email is mstoker at co.slo.ca.us=20 > . > > I looked on Mike Holt=E2=80=99s site and did not see anything from Mike a= bout=20 > wire guarding. I wrote to Mike and asked him directly. I will let=20 > you know what I learn. > > William > > Gradient Cap_mini > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org=20 > ] *On Behalf Of=20 > *billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net > *Sent:* Saturday, September 05, 2015 2:21 PM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) > > William, > > You can always quote me to an AHJ, as long as I actually said it or=20 > wrote it. > > I have been accused of saying all kinds of things that I never=20 > said=E2=80=94people just misunderstood what I said and =E2=80=9Cquoted=E2= =80=9D me incorrectly. > > All the best=E2=80=94and stay safe. Always tragic to hear of=20 > electrocutions=E2=80=94most are so preventable as this one clearly was. N= ever,=20 > ever assume that a circuit is off. I know you warned against inductive=20 > sensors, but they should still be used as one of several methods to=20 > detect voltage. I just watched a video about a guy who thought he was=20 > testing a 480V circuit when it was really a 12kV circuit. The fireball=20 > caught him on fire and burned him to death. The meter was the problem.=20 > An inductive sensor would have saved his life. There is no single=20 > method for safety. > > Bill. > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]=20 > *On Behalf Of *William Miller > *Sent:* Friday, September 04, 2015 2:37 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) > > Bill: > > I apologize that I assumed incorrectly. Thank you for your=20 > assessment. May I quote you to our AHJ? > > Sincerely, > > William > > Gradient Cap_mini > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org=20 > ] *On Behalf Of=20 > *billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net > *Sent:* Friday, September 04, 2015 12:59 PM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) > > William, > > I=E2=80=99m shocked and offended (a tiny bit) that you would prejudice=20 > yourself to not agree with me ;-). > > First of all I have been heavily involved in the revising of the=20 > language in 690.31(A) to make it clear that we cannot walk up and=20 > touch cables operating at 600V. The term guarded is a defined term: > > *Guarded. *Covered, shielded, fenced, enclosed, or otherwise > > protected by means of suitable covers, casings, barriers, > > rails, screens, mats, or platforms to remove the likelihood > > of approach or contact by persons or objects to a point > > of danger. > > A fence actually does not prevent ready access (unless it does not=20 > have a gate), but the term guarded fixes that problem. The guarding=20 > means has to be approved by the AHJ, but many methods have been=20 > employed including mounting lattice work around the backside of fixed=20 > ground-mounted systems. > > Fences are best used for larger systems (over 50-100kW) whereas other=20 > methods=E2=80=94albeit labor intensive=E2=80=94are generally preferred fo= r smaller=20 > installations (under 100 kW) > > No intelligent person would disagree with this proper interpretation=20 > of the NEC=E2=80=94including you. > > Bill. > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]=20 > *On Behalf Of *William Miller > *Sent:* Friday, September 04, 2015 12:09 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) > > Ray: > > 1.Why no fence? Aesthetics. Also costs may be a wash by the time you=20 > mobilize a fencing contractor. > > 2.I=E2=80=99d apply the same requirements to a fence as one would to an=20 > uncovered swimming pool. There are the same consequences if a child=20 > ends up in the wrong place. > > 3.Why bother? > > We figure the expense will decrease as we figure better design and=20 > implementation. Hasn=E2=80=99t yet. > > We care about safety. I figure we, as an industry, will kill a child=20 > by electrocution someday=E2=80=94it is a matter of probability. I hope i= t=20 > won=E2=80=99t be on one of our jobs. > > We hope, in some small way, we influence the industry to improve. > > 4.The industry has not developed solutions because there is no demand.=20 > There is no demand because AHJs don=E2=80=99t enforce the code. > > Thanks for the compliment. We have several new designs not yet=20 > featured on the web site. Check back next time this comes up. > > William > > PS: I am curious what Bill Brooks take on this is, but I don=E2=80=99t th= ink I=20 > will agree with his interpretation. > > W > > Gradient Cap_mini > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org=20 > ] *On Behalf Of *Ray=20 > Walters > *Sent:* Friday, September 04, 2015 11:37 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) > > WilIiam; > > checked out your guards on your website, that looks really clean, but=20 > also like a lot of work and expense. I'm still so surprised=20 > manufacturers are not offering an option like that to their frame systems. > My question: how come you didn't just fence the array? Shading issues=20 > on the south? > If fencing, what height of fence is considered adequate? 4 ft? 6 ft? > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > > On 9/4/2015 9:44 AM, William Miller wrote: > > Gary: > > I think the issue of PV wiring behind module that are readily > accessible is addressed in (2014) 690.31: > > /Where PV source and output circuits operating at maximum/ > > /system voltages greater than 30 volts are installed in/ > > /readily accessible locations, circuit conductors shall be/ > > /guarded or installed in a raceway./ > > I am not sure what application the original poster had in mind, > but this is the question I think you are asking. The > interpretation to 690.31 seems clear to me: No one should be able > to touch the conductors without resorting to a ladder, opening a > locked gate or removing a protective panel. Readily accessible is > defined thusly: > > /Capable of being / > > /reached quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections/ > > /without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite/ > > /to actions such as to use tools, to climb over or remove/ > > /obstacles, or to resort to portable ladders, and so forth./ > > Implementing this is harder than it might seem. Lacking a fence, > the installer must either use the flimsy solar-scrim product or > fabricate his or her own shielding. We have put a fair amount of > effort towards this. See link > . > > William > > Gradient Cap_mini > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > *From:*RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of > *gary easton > *Sent:* Friday, September 04, 2015 2:22 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) > > Bill > > Are you saying there is no requirement to shield wires on a > ground array? > > On Friday, September 4, 2015, > wrote: > > Craig, > > This one is easy to misinterpret. You missed the words =E2=80=9Clive > parts=E2=80=9D. This has been removed from the 2017 NEC because it is > actually referring to load circuits being fed directly by a PV > system on the dc side. All references to loads and batteries are > being removed from 690. > > This is a complete non-issue. > > Bill. > > *From:*RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] > *On Behalf Of *Craig Gerald Buttke > *Sent:* Thursday, September 03, 2015 11:44 AM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) > > > > How is everyone handling 690.7 (D) > > *Circuits over 150 Volts to Ground. *In one- and two- family > dwellings, live parts in photovoltaic source circuits and > photovoltaic output circuits over 150 volts to ground shall not be > accessible to other than qualified persons while energized. > > > > If you have a commercial (non one or two-family dwelling) are you > screening your ground mount arrays to keep people from touching > live conductors PV wires)? > > Thanks for your thoughts > > --=20 > > Yours in Solardarity, > > =20 > > Craig Gerald Buttke > > =20 > > M:(715) 630-1227 > > O:(715) 630-6451 > > F:(715) 952-4501 > > =20 > > North Wind Renewable Energy, LLC > > 1626C W Pearl Street > > Stevens Point, WI 54481 > > =20 > > www.northwindre.com > > =20 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional=E2=84=A2 > > NABCEP Certified PV Technical Sales Professional=E2=84=A2 > > State of WI: Master Electrician > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------= --- > > Avast logo > > =09 > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > > --=20 > Sent from Gmail Mobile > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > =20 > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > =20 > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > =20 > > List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenche= s.org/maillist.html > > =20 > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > =20 > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > =20 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Avast logo > > =09 > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Avast logo > > =09 > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Sep 10 19:32:36 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 16:32:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) In-Reply-To: <55F20C9B.3030301@solarray.com> References: <55E894E5.9000209@northwindre.com> <018401d0e6c7$9946d1a0$cbd474e0$@sbcglobal.net> <55E9E4DE.9010109@solarray.com> <00e001d0e74c$13dbd850$3b9388f0$@sbcglobal.net> <5c6f2825527baf4d5a2597c41fa04601@mail.gmail.com> <024201d0e820$b6209310$2261b930$@sbcglobal.net> <93513de56ee52a966f9adc066a388b71@mail.gmail.com> <55F20C9B.3030301@solarray.com> Message-ID: <72782D2C-77B7-4B46-9FDE-36583FF328D7@millersolar.com> Ray: I apologize but I thought this discussion was off-line. Mike Holy and everyone but apparently our local AHJ agree: wire guarding is required. William > On Sep 10, 2015, at 4:04 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > > I'm confused again. Do we need to guard ground mount arrays or not? I thought it was clear that we did need to guard the array wiring. > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 >> On 9/9/2015 6:46 PM, William Miller wrote: >> Bill: >> >> How right you are. I spoke with Mike Stoker of the County of San Luis Obispo today and he told me that both you and Mike Holt are saying that guards are not required on readily accessible wiring. I sent him your recent email to me on the subject. He may be in touch. If you want to write him, his email is mstoker at co.slo.ca.us. >> >> I looked on Mike Holt’s site and did not see anything from Mike about wire guarding. I wrote to Mike and asked him directly. I will let you know what I learn. >> >> William >> >> >> >> Lic 773985 >> millersolar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net >> Sent: Saturday, September 05, 2015 2:21 PM >> To: 'RE-wrenches' >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) >> >> William, >> >> You can always quote me to an AHJ, as long as I actually said it or wrote it. >> >> I have been accused of saying all kinds of things that I never said—people just misunderstood what I said and “quoted” me incorrectly. >> >> All the best—and stay safe. Always tragic to hear of electrocutions—most are so preventable as this one clearly was. Never, ever assume that a circuit is off. I know you warned against inductive sensors, but they should still be used as one of several methods to detect voltage. I just watched a video about a guy who thought he was testing a 480V circuit when it was really a 12kV circuit. The fireball caught him on fire and burned him to death. The meter was the problem. An inductive sensor would have saved his life. There is no single method for safety. >> >> Bill. >> >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller >> Sent: Friday, September 04, 2015 2:37 PM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) >> >> Bill: >> >> I apologize that I assumed incorrectly. Thank you for your assessment. May I quote you to our AHJ? >> >> Sincerely, >> >> William >> >> >> >> Lic 773985 >> millersolar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net >> Sent: Friday, September 04, 2015 12:59 PM >> To: 'RE-wrenches' >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) >> >> William, >> >> I’m shocked and offended (a tiny bit) that you would prejudice yourself to not agree with me ;-). >> >> First of all I have been heavily involved in the revising of the language in 690.31(A) to make it clear that we cannot walk up and touch cables operating at 600V. The term guarded is a defined term: >> >> Guarded. Covered, shielded, fenced, enclosed, or otherwise >> protected by means of suitable covers, casings, barriers, >> rails, screens, mats, or platforms to remove the likelihood >> of approach or contact by persons or objects to a point >> of danger. >> >> A fence actually does not prevent ready access (unless it does not have a gate), but the term guarded fixes that problem. The guarding means has to be approved by the AHJ, but many methods have been employed including mounting lattice work around the backside of fixed ground-mounted systems. >> >> Fences are best used for larger systems (over 50-100kW) whereas other methods—albeit labor intensive—are generally preferred for smaller installations (under 100 kW) >> >> No intelligent person would disagree with this proper interpretation of the NEC—including you. >> >> Bill. >> >> >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller >> Sent: Friday, September 04, 2015 12:09 PM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) >> >> Ray: >> >> 1. Why no fence? Aesthetics. Also costs may be a wash by the time you mobilize a fencing contractor. >> 2. I’d apply the same requirements to a fence as one would to an uncovered swimming pool. There are the same consequences if a child ends up in the wrong place. >> 3. Why bother? >> We figure the expense will decrease as we figure better design and implementation. Hasn’t yet. >> We care about safety. I figure we, as an industry, will kill a child by electrocution someday—it is a matter of probability. I hope it won’t be on one of our jobs. >> We hope, in some small way, we influence the industry to improve. >> 4. The industry has not developed solutions because there is no demand. There is no demand because AHJs don’t enforce the code. >> >> Thanks for the compliment. We have several new designs not yet featured on the web site. Check back next time this comes up. >> >> William >> >> PS: I am curious what Bill Brooks take on this is, but I don’t think I will agree with his interpretation. >> >> W >> >> >> >> Lic 773985 >> millersolar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters >> Sent: Friday, September 04, 2015 11:37 AM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) >> >> WilIiam; >> >> checked out your guards on your website, that looks really clean, but also like a lot of work and expense. I'm still so surprised manufacturers are not offering an option like that to their frame systems. >> My question: how come you didn't just fence the array? Shading issues on the south? >> If fencing, what height of fence is considered adequate? 4 ft? 6 ft? >> >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> On 9/4/2015 9:44 AM, William Miller wrote: >> Gary: >> >> I think the issue of PV wiring behind module that are readily accessible is addressed in (2014) 690.31: >> >> Where PV source and output circuits operating at maximum >> system voltages greater than 30 volts are installed in >> readily accessible locations, circuit conductors shall be >> guarded or installed in a raceway. >> >> I am not sure what application the original poster had in mind, but this is the question I think you are asking. The interpretation to 690.31 seems clear to me: No one should be able to touch the conductors without resorting to a ladder, opening a locked gate or removing a protective panel. Readily accessible is defined thusly: >> >> Capable of being >> reached quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections >> without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite >> to actions such as to use tools, to climb over or remove >> obstacles, or to resort to portable ladders, and so forth. >> >> Implementing this is harder than it might seem. Lacking a fence, the installer must either use the flimsy solar-scrim product or fabricate his or her own shielding. We have put a fair amount of effort towards this. See link. >> >> >> William >> >> >> >> >> >> Lic 773985 >> millersolar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of gary easton >> Sent: Friday, September 04, 2015 2:22 AM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) >> >> Bill >> Are you saying there is no requirement to shield wires on a ground array? >> >> On Friday, September 4, 2015, wrote: >> Craig, >> >> This one is easy to misinterpret. You missed the words “live parts”. This has been removed from the 2017 NEC because it is actually referring to load circuits being fed directly by a PV system on the dc side. All references to loads and batteries are being removed from 690. >> >> This is a complete non-issue. >> >> Bill. >> >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Craig Gerald Buttke >> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2015 11:44 AM >> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) >> >> >> >> How is everyone handling 690.7 (D) >> >> Circuits over 150 Volts to Ground. In one- and two- family dwellings, live parts in photovoltaic source circuits and photovoltaic output circuits over 150 volts to ground shall not be accessible to other than qualified persons while energized. >> >> >> If you have a commercial (non one or two-family dwelling) are you screening your ground mount arrays to keep people from touching live conductors PV wires)? >> >> Thanks for your thoughts >> >> -- >> Yours in Solardarity, >> >> Craig Gerald Buttke >> >> M:(715) 630-1227 >> O:(715) 630-6451 >> F:(715) 952-4501 >> >> North Wind Renewable Energy, LLC >> 1626C W Pearl Street >> Stevens Point, WI 54481 >> >> www.northwindre.com >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ >> NABCEP Certified PV Technical Sales Professional™ >> State of WI: Master Electrician >> >> >> >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> www.avast.com >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Sent from Gmail Mobile >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> www.avast.com >> >> >> >> >> >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> www.avast.com >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: mime-attachment.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: mime-attachment.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: mime-attachment.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri Sep 11 11:41:20 2015 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 11:41:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Morningstar PWM In-Reply-To: <71415FB0-53F2-4E4C-ABB5-B2D25AB55696@starlightsolar.com> References: <20150909230656.E8CC9100B7@che.dreamhost.com> <71415FB0-53F2-4E4C-ABB5-B2D25AB55696@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <20150911154133.70B308405C@homiemail-a93.g.dreamhost.com> The batteries are good. We are going to try some custom settings. This CC works a bit differently than most, and the problem may be in the duty cycle, IE, how much time the pulses are on vs off. At 04:36 PM 9/10/2015, you wrote: >Drake, > >Quote: “...and goes right back to that voltage in the morning.” > >How quickly does the battery voltage rise to >29.1 in the morning? If the batteries are >sulfated heavily, you may see a very fast rise >in voltage but you will also see a loss of >capacity. Batteries in the early stage of >sulfation may have a difficult time reaching the >constant voltage setpoint and remain in bulk charge continuously. > >What is the size of the PV array and battery >bank? If the array is too small for the bank, >this is the time of year (less sun hours per >day) that we start to receive complaints about >the battery not getting charged. > >Larry Crutcher >Starlight Solar Power Systems > >On Sep 9, 2015, at 5:06 PM, Drake ><drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> >wrote: > >Hello Wrenches, > >I have a Morningstar PWM 45 that doesn't drop >out of absorb. It is set with dip switches to >absorb at 29.2 V and stays constant around 29.1. >It has stayed at 29.1 for several hours >straight, and goes right back to that voltage in >the morning. Tech support says the controller is >working correctly. Have any of you seen this, or >conversely have you seen the Morningstar drop >into float after a reasonable amount of time? > >Thanks, > >Drake > > >Drake Chamberlin >Athens Electric LLC >OH License 44810 >CO License 3773 >NABCEP Certified Solar PV >740-448-7328 >http://athens-electric.com/ > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From louis at solarcowboyz.com Fri Sep 11 13:20:12 2015 From: louis at solarcowboyz.com (louis at solarcowboyz.com) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 10:20:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] off-grid propane tankless water heater advice Message-ID: <20150911102012.9cbc0dcf5f80a0dc982e07761d51a7ae.e6837377b4.wbe@email05.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Fri Sep 11 14:03:20 2015 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 12:03:20 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] off-grid propane tankless water heater advice In-Reply-To: <20150911102012.9cbc0dcf5f80a0dc982e07761d51a7ae.e6837377b4.wbe@email05.secureserver.net> References: <20150911102012.9cbc0dcf5f80a0dc982e07761d51a7ae.e6837377b4.wbe@email05.secureserver.net> Message-ID: Louis; I have seen that pilot light save off-grid on-demand water heaters from freezing many times! Often old technology has advantages that don't make it into new, high-tech equipment press releases. Since I work so far off grid and only with small systems, the newer water heaters needing 120VAC supply don't let inverters go into Search Mode when the residents are away for days, weeks or months. I know Search Mode is a relic from a decade ago when PV was expensive, but smaller systems still rely on it. Best regards; Dan Fink Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 11:20 AM, wrote: > Hello Rebekah, > > I have had no luck in getting the older style without AC required either. > I agree that these newer devices that require AC are better performers. > > Some of these(most ?) have a built in anti-freeze protection scheeme. > It is made from a ceramic heating element(HI-WATT RES.) that will come on > at a default internal temp.(typ=36 to 38deg F). > When this antifreeze circuit turns ON there is around 100 to 200W(I would > have to go measure to be sure) of power consumed. > When installed in cold climates this circuit will be used. > > On the older non-ac units the standing pilot light can protect against > some freezing;However I would not count on this alone in cold climates. > > This is something to be aware of. > Hope this helps. > > Louis Segarra > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Sep 11 17:23:58 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 14:23:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Morningstar PWM In-Reply-To: <20150911154133.70B308405C@homiemail-a93.g.dreamhost.com> References: <20150909230656.E8CC9100B7@che.dreamhost.com> <71415FB0-53F2-4E4C-ABB5-B2D25AB55696@starlightsolar.com> <20150911154133.70B308405C@homiemail-a93.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: HI All, I talked to Morningstar today and here is how the tristar work. To get to the absorb time of 120-150 minutes in CC mode ( + an additional 30 or more if the batteries got below 12.3v nominal the day before) the controller must get to 15% duty cycle. So for the 60 amp its 9 amps. When it regulates down to this current, it’ll then start the absorb timed cycle. In reality of course its already been there for some time if the duty cycle is anything less than 100%, but thats how MS does it. I hope this helps, jay peltz power > On Sep 11, 2015, at 8:41 AM, Drake wrote: > > The batteries are good. We are going to try some custom settings. This CC works a bit differently than most, and the problem may be in the duty cycle, IE, how much time the pulses are on vs off. > > At 04:36 PM 9/10/2015, you wrote: >> Drake, >> >> Quote: “...and goes right back to that voltage in the morning.” >> >> How quickly does the battery voltage rise to 29.1 in the morning? If the batteries are sulfated heavily, you may see a very fast rise in voltage but you will also see a loss of capacity. Batteries in the early stage of sulfation may have a difficult time reaching the constant voltage setpoint and remain in bulk charge continuously. >> >> What is the size of the PV array and battery bank? If the array is too small for the bank, this is the time of year (less sun hours per day) that we start to receive complaints about the battery not getting charged. >> >> Larry Crutcher >> Starlight Solar Power Systems >> >> On Sep 9, 2015, at 5:06 PM, Drake < drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org > wrote: >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> I have a Morningstar PWM 45 that doesn't drop out of absorb. It is set with dip switches to absorb at 29.2 V and stays constant around 29.1. It has stayed at 29.1 for several hours straight, and goes right back to that voltage in the morning. Tech support says the controller is working correctly. Have any of you seen this, or conversely have you seen the Morningstar drop into float after a reasonable amount of time? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> >> >> <>Drake Chamberlin >> Athens Electric LLC >> OH License 44810 >> CO License 3773 >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV >> 740-448-7328 >> http://athens-electric.com/ >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solareagle at solareagle.com Fri Sep 11 19:58:10 2015 From: solareagle at solareagle.com (RM You) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 16:58:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] panel failure Message-ID: I have a customer who has 6 siemens 48w panels that are 20 years old (hooked in parallel to a 12v battery). He says that 4 of them have failed in that there is no output unless he bypasses the diodes. However he pulled the diodes and checked them on a diode check and separately on a battery with a light bulb and they appear to be functioning correctly. Any ideas what could be causing this anomaly? Ron Young From windsine at gmail.com Fri Sep 11 20:07:04 2015 From: windsine at gmail.com (Roy Rakobitsch) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 19:07:04 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] panel failure In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Although i cant vouch for 20 year old siemens, my siemens modules (14 yr old sp-150s) had an intermittent connection develop between the stainless ribbon that exits the back sheet and the terminal where the blocking diodes connect (3 diodes). There used a spot welder to join the materials. This had opened up - the small spot welds broke. Like I said, yours may be different, but might be worth a shot scoping out the integrity of these connections. Roy Rakobitsch NABCEP Certified Small Wind Installer® NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® Certified Advanced Tower Climbing, Safety & Rescue Wind/PV Design Engineer Windsine LLC 631-514-4166 www.windsine.org On Sep 11, 2015 6:58 PM, "RM You" wrote: > I have a customer who has 6 siemens 48w panels that are 20 years old > (hooked in parallel to a 12v battery). He says that 4 of them have failed > in that there is no output unless he bypasses the diodes. However he pulled > the diodes and checked them on a diode check and separately on a battery > with a light bulb and they appear to be functioning correctly. Any ideas > what could be causing this anomaly? > > Ron Young > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Sat Sep 12 00:54:51 2015 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 21:54:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] California fire/PVclearnces References: Message-ID: <0FDFF4390091436AAAC3AE5C4712DFCF@D8XG8YH1> CA Wrenches, My installs are mostly in unincorporated towns and properties outside of small towns in the Sierras. I understand the requirements for walk space around PV arrays here in CA on residential dwellings. Do these requirements pertain to "outbuildings" such as shops, garages, storage sheds and the like? I would like to be able to run the edge of the array a bit closer than 3' to the roof's edge due to limited space. Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Sat Sep 12 10:02:24 2015 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2015 07:02:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] California fire/PVclearnces In-Reply-To: <0FDFF4390091436AAAC3AE5C4712DFCF@D8XG8YH1> References: <0FDFF4390091436AAAC3AE5C4712DFCF@D8XG8YH1> Message-ID: <76fa5a18c3233a9bcbbe8c222f3114b0@mail.gmail.com> Hi Bill, See California 2013 Fire Code 605.11 Solar photovoltaic power systems. https://law.resource.org/pub/us/code/bsc.ca.gov/gov.ca.bsc.2013.09.pdf *605.11 Solar photovoltaic power systems.* Solar photovoltaic power systems shall be installed in accordance with Sections 605.11.1 through 605.11.4, the California Building > Code and the Cal~fornia Electrical Code. *Exception:* Detached, non habitable Group U structures including, but not limited to, parking shade structures, carports, solar trellises and similar structures shall not be subject to the requirements of this section. And Group U defined under definitions: *[B] Miscellaneous Group U.* Buildings and structures of an accessory character and miscellaneous structures not classified in any specific occupancy shall be constructed, equipped and maintained to conform to the requirements of this code commensurate with the fire and life hazard incidental to their occupancy. Group U shall include, but not be limited to, the following: Agricultural buildings Aircraft hangar, accessory to a one- or two-family residence (see Section 412.5 of the California Building Code) Barns Carports Fences more than 6 feet (1829 mm) high Grain silos, accessory to a residential occupancy Greenhouses Livestock shelters Private garages Retaining walls Sheds Stables Tanks Towers Good luck out there! Best, August Luminalt *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *frenergy *Sent:* Friday, September 11, 2015 9:55 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] California fire/PVclearnces CA Wrenches, My installs are mostly in unincorporated towns and properties outside of small towns in the Sierras. I understand the requirements for walk space around PV arrays here in CA on residential dwellings. Do these requirements pertain to "outbuildings" such as shops, garages, storage sheds and the like? I would like to be able to run the edge of the array a bit closer than 3' to the roof's edge due to limited space. Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Sep 12 10:48:44 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2015 07:48:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] California fire/PVclearnces In-Reply-To: <76fa5a18c3233a9bcbbe8c222f3114b0@mail.gmail.com> References: <0FDFF4390091436AAAC3AE5C4712DFCF@D8XG8YH1> <76fa5a18c3233a9bcbbe8c222f3114b0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: HI Guys, There is an exception in 605.11.3 -2. About getting the approval of local fire chief for roof ridge variations. Do you know if there is a full exception somewhere in this code that would allow for example no 3’ setbacks. I do know a number of people who have gone to the local fire district and have the fire chief sign off that they don’t get on roofs or won’t for that building ( too steep/tall,etc) and have then taken that to the building department. good luck, jay sent 9/12/15 7:48am > On Sep 12, 2015, at 7:02 AM, August Goers wrote: > > Hi Bill, > > See California 2013 Fire Code 605.11 Solar photovoltaic power systems. > > https://law.resource.org/pub/us/code/bsc.ca.gov/gov.ca.bsc.2013.09.pdf > > 605.11 Solar photovoltaic power systems. Solar photovoltaic power systems shall be installed in accordance with Sections 605.11.1 through 605.11.4, the California Building > Code and the Cal~fornia Electrical Code. > > Exception: Detached, non habitable Group U structures including, but not limited to, parking shade structures, carports, solar trellises and similar structures shall not be subject to the requirements of this section. > > And Group U defined under definitions: > > [B] Miscellaneous Group U. Buildings and structures of an accessory character and miscellaneous structures not classified in any specific occupancy shall be constructed, equipped and maintained to conform to the requirements of this code commensurate with the fire and life hazard incidental to their occupancy. Group U shall include, but not be limited to, the following: Agricultural buildings Aircraft hangar, accessory to a one- or two-family residence (see Section 412.5 of the California Building Code) Barns Carports Fences more than 6 feet (1829 mm) high Grain silos, accessory to a residential occupancy Greenhouses Livestock shelters Private garages Retaining walls Sheds Stables Tanks Towers > > Good luck out there! > > Best, > > August > > Luminalt > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of frenergy > Sent: Friday, September 11, 2015 9:55 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] California fire/PVclearnces > > CA Wrenches, > > My installs are mostly in unincorporated towns and properties outside of small towns in the Sierras. I understand the requirements for walk space around PV arrays here in CA on residential dwellings. Do these requirements pertain to "outbuildings" such as shops, garages, storage sheds and the like? > > I would like to be able to run the edge of the array a bit closer than 3' to the roof's edge due to limited space. > > Thanks, > > Bill Feather River Solar Electric > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com Sat Sep 12 21:04:48 2015 From: solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com (Solar Energy Solutions) Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2015 01:04:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] California fire/PVclearnces In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <374945998.1557466.1442106288101.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> In Oregon,  it works like this: 304.9 Fire Fighter Access and Escape. To provide access and escape for Fire Fighters the location of roof-mounted PV modules shall comply with the requirements of this section. 304.9.1 General Pathway Requirements. All PV installations shall include a 36 inch wide (914mm) pathway maintained along three sides of the solar roof. The bottom edge of a roof with a slope that exceeds 2:12 shall not be used as a pathway. All pathways shall be located over a structurally supported area and measured from edge of the roof and horizontal ridge to the solar array or any portion thereof. Exception: 1. On structures with a PV array area of 1,000 square feet (92.90 m2) or less installed on a roof with a slope that exceeds 2:12 and with an intersecting adjacent roof and where no section is larger than 150 feet (45720 mm) measured in length or width: 1.1. Where the PV array does not exceed 25% as measured in plan view of total roof area of the structure, a minimum 12 inch (305mm) unobstructed pathway, shall be maintained along each side of any horizontal ridge. 1.2. Where the solar array area exceeds 25% as measured in plan view of total roof area of the structure, a minimum of one 36 inch (914 mm) unobstructed pathway from ridge to eave, over a structurally supported area, must be provided in addition to a minimum 12 inch (305 mm) unobstructed pathway along each side of any horizontal ridge. 2. Pathways are not required on non-occupied accessory structures provided they are separated from occupied structures by a 6 feet (3048 mm) minimum separation distance or by a minimum two-hour fire rated assembly. 3. Townhouses providing fire separation as required by the applicable code at the time of construction may be considered one structure and comply with the provisions of Section 304.9.1(1.1). Where townhouses are separated by real property lines and pathways cross real property lines, the building official shall review, approve and maintain a record of all easements for access related to the PV system installation. Easements may be general in nature or they may describe specific locations. The applicant shall provide a copy of the recorded easement to the building official prior to issuance of the building permit. Easements shall be recorded for each affected dwelling unit and the book and page number provided to the jurisdiction having authority. Commentary: This section is meant to address issues that can arise in the event of a fire emergency. The committee worked with a group of solar installers, jurisdictions and fire services personnel to develop provisions that would allow for the maximum amount of space for installing solar panels, while ensuring that fire fighters can respond to a fire emergency in a safe manner. Firefighters require minimum access pathways to move about the roof during a fire event, providing an unobstructed path should the need arise to move quickly. This section contains a general requirement as well as exceptions to the general requirement for smaller systems, non-habitable accessory structures, and townhouses. The general requirements for a 3 foot pathway on three sides of the array apply, unless one of the exceptions is met. The “solar roof” is the roof or roof plane that will have the solar panels installed on it. The bottom edge of a sloped roof cannot be used as a pathway; discussion with the fire services indicated that walking along the bottom edge of a sloped roof for venting or egress would not be safe. On a flat roof, the three 3-foot pathways can be placed wherever is convenient. The first exception addresses solar arrays that are 1,000 square feet or less and installed on a roof with a minimum slope of 2:12. In this instance, where the array takes up less than 25% of the total roof area, and there is an adjacent roof plane(often the North facing roof) there is no requirement for a three-foot pathway; however, installers must maintain 12 inches along the ridgeline to allow for fire ladder hooks in the event of a fire. In most all instances, where a solar array comprised less than 25% of a roof’s surface there is a way for fire services personnel to get off a solared roof without having to navigate through or over panels. Gabled roofs will have an adjacent roof plan so long as one side of the roof is clear of panels. Where a solar array is 1,000 square feet or less and takes up more than 25% of the total roof area where the slope is 2:12 or greater and there is an adjacent roof without panels, then a solar installation must allow for 12 inches at the ridge and a 3-foot pathway for fire fighter egress. Pathways on or near the eaves must be over a structurally supported area; some overhangs on older structures are cantilevered and may not support the weight of a firefighter. Where a particular structure makes it impracticable or unlikely that the fire services will require the top ridge for ladder attachment, or impractical for fire services to walk along or vent the roof, then the building official should consider working with installers on modifications to this section. Under section 103.10 the building official has the ability to modify provisions of the code where strict adherence is impracticable. Any required pathway must be shown on the plans. Non-habitable accessory structures are not subject to the pathway requirements. Committee discussion was that fire services personnel will rarely need to go onto the roof of a non-habitable structure.. A townhouse can be treated as a single structure for purposes of the pathway requirements provided that an easement has been properly recorded and provided to the building  We STRONGLY suggest other states, at the bare minimum, follow this OR something even more solarcentric.  Andrew KoyaanisqatsiPresidentSolar Energy Solutions, Inc.Since 1987,Moving Portland and Beyond to an Environmentally Sustainable Future.503-238-4502 www.SolarEnergyOregon.com "Better one's House too little one daythan too big all the Year after." On Saturday, September 12, 2015 8:16 AM, jay wrote: HI Guys, There is an exception in 605.11.3 -2.About getting the approval of local fire chief for roof ridge variations. Do you know if there is a full exception somewhere in this code that would allow for example no 3’ setbacks. I do know a number of people who have gone to the local fire district and have the fire chief sign off that they don’t get on roofs or won’t for that building ( too steep/tall,etc)and have then taken that to the building department. good luck, jaysent 9/12/15  7:48am On Sep 12, 2015, at 7:02 AM, August Goers wrote: Hi Bill, See California 2013 Fire Code 605.11 Solar photovoltaic power systems. https://law.resource.org/pub/us/code/bsc.ca.gov/gov.ca.bsc.2013.09.pdf 605.11 Solar photovoltaic power systems. Solar photovoltaic power systems shall be installed in accordance with Sections 605.11.1 through 605.11.4, the California Building > Code and the Cal~fornia Electrical Code. Exception: Detached, non habitable Group U structures including, but not limited to, parking shade structures, carports, solar trellises and similar structures shall not be subject to the requirements of this section. And Group U defined under definitions: [B] Miscellaneous Group U. Buildings and structures of an accessory character and miscellaneous structures not classified in any specific occupancy shall be constructed, equipped and maintained to conform to the requirements of this code commensurate with the fire and life hazard incidental to their occupancy. Group U shall include, but not be limited to, the following: Agricultural buildings Aircraft hangar, accessory to a one- or two-family residence (see Section 412.5 of the California Building Code) Barns Carports Fences more than 6 feet (1829 mm) high Grain silos, accessory to a residential occupancy Greenhouses Livestock shelters Private garages Retaining walls Sheds Stables Tanks Towers Good luck out there! Best, August Luminalt From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of frenergy Sent: Friday, September 11, 2015 9:55 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] California fire/PVclearnces CA Wrenches,         My installs are mostly in unincorporated towns and properties outside of small towns in the Sierras.  I understand the requirements for walk space around PV arrays here in CA on residential dwellings.  Do these requirements pertain to "outbuildings"  such as shops, garages, storage sheds and the like?         I would like to be able to run the edge of the array a bit closer than 3' to the roof's edge due to limited space. Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sat Sep 12 21:35:52 2015 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2015 19:35:52 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] California fire/PVclearnces In-Reply-To: References: <0FDFF4390091436AAAC3AE5C4712DFCF@D8XG8YH1> <76fa5a18c3233a9bcbbe8c222f3114b0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay; look up the Boulder, CO, Golden, CO and Oregon exceptions to the IFC on setbacks. They all depend on local fire officials approval of each installation plan of course as allowed in IFC. Rooflines these days have become SO complicated that simple roofline setback rules as defined in the IFC are very tricky to interpret. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Sat, Sep 12, 2015 at 8:48 AM, jay wrote: > HI Guys, > > There is an exception in 605.11.3 -2. > About getting the approval of local fire chief for roof ridge variations. > > > Do you know if there is a full exception somewhere in this code that would > allow for example no 3’ setbacks. > > I do know a number of people who have gone to the local fire district and > have the fire chief sign off that they don’t get on roofs or won’t for that > building ( too steep/tall,etc) > and have then taken that to the building department. > > good luck, > > jay > sent 9/12/15 7:48am > > > > > On Sep 12, 2015, at 7:02 AM, August Goers wrote: > > Hi Bill, > > > See California 2013 Fire Code 605.11 Solar photovoltaic power systems. > > > https://law.resource.org/pub/us/code/bsc.ca.gov/gov.ca.bsc.2013.09.pdf > > > *605.11 Solar photovoltaic power systems.* Solar photovoltaic power > systems shall be installed in accordance with Sections 605.11.1 through > 605.11.4, the California Building > Code and the Cal~fornia Electrical Code. > > > *Exception:* Detached, non habitable Group U structures including, but > not limited to, parking shade structures, carports, solar trellises and > similar structures shall not be subject to the requirements of this section. > > > And Group U defined under definitions: > > > *[B] Miscellaneous Group U.* Buildings and structures of an accessory > character and miscellaneous structures not classified in any specific > occupancy shall be constructed, equipped and maintained to conform to the > requirements of this code commensurate with the fire and life hazard > incidental to their occupancy. Group U shall include, but not be limited > to, the following: Agricultural buildings Aircraft hangar, accessory to a > one- or two-family residence (see Section 412.5 of the California Building > Code) Barns Carports Fences more than 6 feet (1829 mm) high Grain silos, > accessory to a residential occupancy Greenhouses Livestock shelters Private > garages Retaining walls Sheds Stables Tanks Towers > > > Good luck out there! > > > Best, > > > August > > > Luminalt > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *frenergy > *Sent:* Friday, September 11, 2015 9:55 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] California fire/PVclearnces > > > CA Wrenches, > > > My installs are mostly in unincorporated towns and properties > outside of small towns in the Sierras. I understand the requirements for > walk space around PV arrays here in CA on residential dwellings. Do these > requirements pertain to "outbuildings" such as shops, garages, storage > sheds and the like? > > > I would like to be able to run the edge of the array a bit closer > than 3' to the roof's edge due to limited space. > > > Thanks, > > > Bill Feather River Solar Electric > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com Mon Sep 14 22:27:08 2015 From: bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com (Brian Teitelbaum) Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2015 19:27:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] off-grid propane tankless water heater advice In-Reply-To: References: <20150911102012.9cbc0dcf5f80a0dc982e07761d51a7ae.e6837377b4.wbe@email05.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <2966c2ff0597567392cee89439bf623c@mail.gmail.com> Dan, If your customers are gone for more than a few days, they should turn the heater off and drain the water out of it. That is what I do with my 25 year-old Aquastar, although I don’t have to turn it off because it doesn’t use electricity. But I do drain it to keep it from freezing. In fact, I drain the whole house in the winter when I leave since the wood stove is not keeping it warm if I’m not there. I did come back to broken pipes a time or two before I got smart. Brian AEE Solar *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Dan Fink *Sent:* Friday, September 11, 2015 11:03 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] off-grid propane tankless water heater advice Louis; I have seen that pilot light save off-grid on-demand water heaters from freezing many times! Often old technology has advantages that don't make it into new, high-tech equipment press releases. Since I work so far off grid and only with small systems, the newer water heaters needing 120VAC supply don't let inverters go into Search Mode when the residents are away for days, weeks or months. I know Search Mode is a relic from a decade ago when PV was expensive, but smaller systems still rely on it. Best regards; Dan Fink Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 11:20 AM, wrote: Hello Rebekah, I have had no luck in getting the older style without AC required either. I agree that these newer devices that require AC are better performers. Some of these(most ?) have a built in anti-freeze protection scheeme. It is made from a ceramic heating element(HI-WATT RES.) that will come on at a default internal temp.(typ=36 to 38deg F). When this antifreeze circuit turns ON there is around 100 to 200W(I would have to go measure to be sure) of power consumed. When installed in cold climates this circuit will be used. On the older non-ac units the standing pilot light can protect against some freezing;However I would not count on this alone in cold climates. This is something to be aware of. Hope this helps. Louis Segarra -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gary at arp-solar.com Tue Sep 15 09:21:17 2015 From: gary at arp-solar.com (gary easton) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 09:21:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery bank calculator Message-ID: anyone have a suggestion for a battery bank sizing tool? -- Sent from Gmail Mobile -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reellison at gmail.com Tue Sep 15 09:31:39 2015 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 09:31:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery bank calculator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49854190-0F3C-4E51-B960-998E39C593E1@gmail.com> I don't think it can be done accurately with a sizing tool i've actually never heard of a tool at least not that I can remember There's far too many variables. Everything from loads to solar isolation as well as the habits of the individual occupants and the appliance selection in the home The old joke used to be calculate what you needed for three days and then double it as far as battery bank size Just a few thoughts, batten five dollars will get your cuppa coffee and a lot of convenient stores Bob Ellison > On Sep 15, 2015, at 9:21 AM, gary easton wrote: > > anyone have a suggestion for a battery bank sizing tool? > > -- > Sent from Gmail Mobile > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From rebekah.hren at gmail.com Tue Sep 15 10:07:30 2015 From: rebekah.hren at gmail.com (Rebekah Hren) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 10:07:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery bank calculator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Trojan manufacturer specific: http://www.batterysizingcalculator.com/ ​ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Tue Sep 15 11:02:02 2015 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 11:02:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery bank calculator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000601d0efc7$7b596190$720c24b0$@burt@glbcc.com> Home Power used to have a pretty comprehensive spreadsheet available to download from their website. AEE and Sunwize had manual ones in their catalogs as well. -Glenn From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of gary easton Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 9:21 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery bank calculator anyone have a suggestion for a battery bank sizing tool? -- Sent from Gmail Mobile -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Tue Sep 15 16:20:13 2015 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 16:20:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) In-Reply-To: <72782D2C-77B7-4B46-9FDE-36583FF328D7@millersolar.com> References: <55E894E5.9000209@northwindre.com> <018401d0e6c7$9946d1a0$cbd474e0$@sbcglobal.net> <55E9E4DE.9010109@solarray.com> <00e001d0e74c$13dbd850$3b9388f0$@sbcglobal.net> <5c6f2825527baf4d5a2597c41fa04601@mail.gmail.com> <024201d0e820$b6209310$2261b930$@sbcglobal.net> <93513de56ee52a966f9adc066a388b71@mail.gmail.com> <55F20C9B.3030301@solarray.com> <72782D2C-77B7-4B46-9FDE-36583FF328D7@millersolar.com> Message-ID: <55F87D7D.5010600@entech-engineering.com> How many basements, utility rooms etc. have conductors that fail the=20 ground mounted solar array test? I hope the live parts is what is=20 protected and not the conductors themselves. On 9/10/2015 7:32 PM, William Miller wrote: > Ray: > > I apologize but I thought this discussion was off-line. > > Mike Holy and everyone but apparently our local AHJ agree: wire=20 > guarding is required. > > William > > > > On Sep 10, 2015, at 4:04 PM, Ray Walters > wrote: > >> I'm confused again. Do we need to guard ground mount arrays or not? =20 >> I thought it was clear that we did need to guard the array wiring. >> >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> On 9/9/2015 6:46 PM, William Miller wrote: >>> >>> Bill: >>> >>> How right you are. I spoke with Mike Stoker of the County of San=20 >>> Luis Obispo today and he told me that both you and Mike Holt are=20 >>> saying that guards are not required on readily accessible wiring. I=20 >>> sent him your recent email to me on the subject. He may be in=20 >>> touch. If you want to write him, his email is mstoker at co.slo.ca.us=20 >>> . >>> >>> I looked on Mike Holt=E2=80=99s site and did not see anything from Mike= =20 >>> about wire guarding. I wrote to Mike and asked him directly. I=20 >>> will let you know what I learn. >>> >>> William >>> >>> >>> Lic 773985 >>> millersolar.com >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org=20 >>> ] *On Behalf Of=20 >>> *billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net >>> *Sent:* Saturday, September 05, 2015 2:21 PM >>> *To:* 'RE-wrenches' >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) >>> >>> William, >>> >>> You can always quote me to an AHJ, as long as I actually said it or=20 >>> wrote it. >>> >>> I have been accused of saying all kinds of things that I never=20 >>> said=E2=80=94people just misunderstood what I said and =E2=80=9Cquoted= =E2=80=9D me incorrectly. >>> >>> All the best=E2=80=94and stay safe. Always tragic to hear of=20 >>> electrocutions=E2=80=94most are so preventable as this one clearly was.= =20 >>> Never, ever assume that a circuit is off. I know you warned against=20 >>> inductive sensors, but they should still be used as one of several=20 >>> methods to detect voltage. I just watched a video about a guy who=20 >>> thought he was testing a 480V circuit when it was really a 12kV=20 >>> circuit. The fireball caught him on fire and burned him to death.=20 >>> The meter was the problem. An inductive sensor would have saved his=20 >>> life. There is no single method for safety. >>> >>> Bill. >>> >>> *From:*RE-wrenches=20 >>> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of=20 >>> *William Miller >>> *Sent:* Friday, September 04, 2015 2:37 PM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >> > >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) >>> >>> Bill: >>> >>> I apologize that I assumed incorrectly. Thank you for your=20 >>> assessment. May I quote you to our AHJ? >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> William >>> >>> Gradient Cap_mini >>> Lic 773985 >>> millersolar.com >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org=20 >>> ] *On Behalf Of=20 >>> *billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net >>> *Sent:* Friday, September 04, 2015 12:59 PM >>> *To:* 'RE-wrenches' >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) >>> >>> William, >>> >>> I=E2=80=99m shocked and offended (a tiny bit) that you would prejudice = >>> yourself to not agree with me ;-). >>> >>> First of all I have been heavily involved in the revising of the=20 >>> language in 690.31(A) to make it clear that we cannot walk up and=20 >>> touch cables operating at 600V. The term guarded is a defined term: >>> >>> *Guarded. *Covered, shielded, fenced, enclosed, or otherwise >>> >>> protected by means of suitable covers, casings, barriers, >>> >>> rails, screens, mats, or platforms to remove the likelihood >>> >>> of approach or contact by persons or objects to a point >>> >>> of danger. >>> >>> A fence actually does not prevent ready access (unless it does not=20 >>> have a gate), but the term guarded fixes that problem. The guarding=20 >>> means has to be approved by the AHJ, but many methods have been=20 >>> employed including mounting lattice work around the backside of=20 >>> fixed ground-mounted systems. >>> >>> Fences are best used for larger systems (over 50-100kW) whereas=20 >>> other methods=E2=80=94albeit labor intensive=E2=80=94are generally pref= erred for=20 >>> smaller installations (under 100 kW) >>> >>> No intelligent person would disagree with this proper interpretation=20 >>> of the NEC=E2=80=94including you. >>> >>> Bill. >>> >>> *From:*RE-wrenches=20 >>> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of=20 >>> *William Miller >>> *Sent:* Friday, September 04, 2015 12:09 PM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >> > >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) >>> >>> Ray: >>> >>> 1.Why no fence? Aesthetics. Also costs may be a wash by the time=20 >>> you mobilize a fencing contractor. >>> >>> 2.I=E2=80=99d apply the same requirements to a fence as one would to an= =20 >>> uncovered swimming pool. There are the same consequences if a child=20 >>> ends up in the wrong place. >>> >>> 3.Why bother? >>> >>> We figure the expense will decrease as we figure better design and=20 >>> implementation. Hasn=E2=80=99t yet. >>> >>> We care about safety. I figure we, as an industry, will kill a=20 >>> child by electrocution someday=E2=80=94it is a matter of probability. = I=20 >>> hope it won=E2=80=99t be on one of our jobs. >>> >>> We hope, in some small way, we influence the industry to improve. >>> >>> 4.The industry has not developed solutions because there is no=20 >>> demand. There is no demand because AHJs don=E2=80=99t enforce the code. >>> >>> Thanks for the compliment. We have several new designs not yet=20 >>> featured on the web site. Check back next time this comes up. >>> >>> William >>> >>> PS: I am curious what Bill Brooks take on this is, but I don=E2=80=99t = think=20 >>> I will agree with his interpretation. >>> >>> W >>> >>> Gradient Cap_mini >>> Lic 773985 >>> millersolar.com >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org=20 >>> ] *On Behalf Of=20 >>> *Ray Walters >>> *Sent:* Friday, September 04, 2015 11:37 AM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) >>> >>> WilIiam; >>> >>> checked out your guards on your website, that looks really clean,=20 >>> but also like a lot of work and expense. I'm still so surprised=20 >>> manufacturers are not offering an option like that to their frame=20 >>> systems. >>> My question: how come you didn't just fence the array? Shading=20 >>> issues on the south? >>> If fencing, what height of fence is considered adequate? 4 ft? 6 ft? >>> >>> R.Ray Walters >>> CTO, Solarray, Inc >>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >>> Licensed Master Electrician >>> Solar Design Engineer >>> 303 505-8760 >>> >>> On 9/4/2015 9:44 AM, William Miller wrote: >>> >>> Gary: >>> >>> I think the issue of PV wiring behind module that are readily >>> accessible is addressed in (2014) 690.31: >>> >>> /Where PV source and output circuits operating at maximum/ >>> >>> /system voltages greater than 30 volts are installed in/ >>> >>> /readily accessible locations, circuit conductors shall be/ >>> >>> /guarded or installed in a raceway./ >>> >>> I am not sure what application the original poster had in mind, >>> but this is the question I think you are asking. The >>> interpretation to 690.31 seems clear to me: No one should be >>> able to touch the conductors without resorting to a ladder, >>> opening a locked gate or removing a protective panel. Readily >>> accessible is defined thusly: >>> >>> /Capable of being / >>> >>> /reached quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections/ >>> >>> /without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite/ >>> >>> /to actions such as to use tools, to climb over or remove/ >>> >>> /obstacles, or to resort to portable ladders, and so forth./ >>> >>> Implementing this is harder than it might seem. Lacking a >>> fence, the installer must either use the flimsy solar-scrim >>> product or fabricate his or her own shielding. We have put a >>> fair amount of effort towards this. See link >>> . >>> >>> William >>> >>> Gradient Cap_mini >>> Lic 773985 >>> millersolar.com >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> *From:*RE-wrenches >>> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> ] *On Behalf >>> Of *gary easton >>> *Sent:* Friday, September 04, 2015 2:22 AM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> Are you saying there is no requirement to shield wires on a >>> ground array? >>> >>> On Friday, September 4, 2015, wrote: >>> >>> Craig, >>> >>> This one is easy to misinterpret. You missed the words =E2=80=9Clive >>> parts=E2=80=9D. This has been removed from the 2017 NEC because it = is >>> actually referring to load circuits being fed directly by a PV >>> system on the dc side. All references to loads and batteries are >>> being removed from 690. >>> >>> This is a complete non-issue. >>> >>> Bill. >>> >>> *From:*RE-wrenches >>> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> ] >>> *On Behalf Of *Craig Gerald Buttke >>> *Sent:* Thursday, September 03, 2015 11:44 AM >>> *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Guarding against live parts 690.7 (D) >>> >>> >>> >>> How is everyone handling 690.7 (D) >>> >>> *Circuits over 150 Volts to Ground. *In one- and two- family >>> dwellings, live parts in photovoltaic source circuits and >>> photovoltaic output circuits over 150 volts to ground shall not >>> be accessible to other than qualified persons while energized. >>> >>> >>> >>> If you have a commercial (non one or two-family dwelling) are >>> you screening your ground mount arrays to keep people from >>> touching live conductors PV wires)? >>> >>> Thanks for your thoughts >>> >>> --=20 >>> >>> Yours in Solardarity, >>> >>> =20 >>> >>> Craig Gerald Buttke >>> >>> =20 >>> >>> M:(715) 630-1227 >>> >>> O:(715) 630-6451 >>> >>> F:(715) 952-4501 >>> >>> =20 >>> >>> North Wind Renewable Energy, LLC >>> >>> 1626C W Pearl Street >>> >>> Stevens Point, WI 54481 >>> >>> =20 >>> >>> www.northwindre.com >>> >>> =20 >>> >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional=E2=84=A2 >>> >>> NABCEP Certified PV Technical Sales Professional=E2=84=A2 >>> >>> State of WI: Master Electrician >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- >>> >>> Avast logo >>> >>> =09 >>> >>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus >>> software. >>> www.avast.com >>> >>> >>> >>> --=20 >>> Sent from Gmail Mobile >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> =20 >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> =20 >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> =20 >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenc= hes.org/maillist.html >>> >>> =20 >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> =20 >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> =20 >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> Avast logo >>> >>> =09 >>> >>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >>> www.avast.com >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> Avast logo >>> >>> =09 >>> >>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >>> www.avast.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.= org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org=20 >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:=20 >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.h= tml >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm=20 >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --=20 Christopher Warfel, President ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 100 bytes Desc: not available URL: From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Tue Sep 15 17:08:16 2015 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 14:08:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery bank calculator In-Reply-To: <000601d0efc7$7b596190$720c24b0$@burt@glbcc.com> References: <000601d0efc7$7b596190$720c24b0$@burt@glbcc.com> Message-ID: <555668.68998.bm@smtp119.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi gang, if you have any questions contact me off-list. The EnergyMaster spreadsheet by The Wizard & Richard Perez is available for download here: http://redwoodalliance.org/files/energymaster.xls But it's pretty dated. Glenn Burt wrote at 08:02 AM 9/15/2015: >Home Power used to have a pretty comprehensive spreadsheet available to download from their website. >AEE and Sunwize had manual ones in their catalogs as well. From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Tue Sep 15 17:39:18 2015 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 17:39:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery bank calculator In-Reply-To: <49854190-0F3C-4E51-B960-998E39C593E1@gmail.com> References: <49854190-0F3C-4E51-B960-998E39C593E1@gmail.com> Message-ID: Homer can do it but it is expensive. http://www.homerenergy.com On Sep 15, 2015 9:31 AM, "RE Ellison" wrote: > I don't think it can be done accurately with a sizing tool i've actually > never heard of a tool at least not that I can remember > > There's far too many variables. > Everything from loads to solar isolation as well as the habits of the > individual occupants and the appliance selection in the home > > The old joke used to be calculate what you needed for three days and then > double it as far as battery bank size > > Just a few thoughts, batten five dollars will get your cuppa coffee and a > lot of convenient stores > > Bob Ellison > > > > > On Sep 15, 2015, at 9:21 AM, gary easton wrote: > > > > anyone have a suggestion for a battery bank sizing tool? > > > > -- > > Sent from Gmail Mobile > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at independentpowerllc.com Tue Sep 15 21:04:16 2015 From: dave at independentpowerllc.com (Dave) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 21:04:16 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery bank calculator In-Reply-To: References: <49854190-0F3C-4E51-B960-998E39C593E1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <007601d0f01b$9c606290$d52127b0$@com> The AEE catalog battery sizing template works well as it allows you to dial back the days of autonomy needed. As I remember the old Dankoff Solar battery sizing method pushed the watt hour size of battery banks to large, and expensive, levels. The collective experience of this group, and others, has emphasized designing off grid pv system's where the primary consideration is ample PV array sizing and where the storage battery is sized in the C/10 range. With lower module prices this has been practical for a few years now and it has been demonstrated that smaller watt hour battery banks have proven to be not only cost savers but also perform well for years as they live in a system where they are very likely to be fully charged on a regular basis. Even here in northern Vermont where we experience late fall and winter daily peak sun hours in the 1 hr/day average range, designing large battery banks has been frowned on for many years out of my shop. Oversize the pv array and run the generator when needed. David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-371-8678 cell From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Mason Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 5:39 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery bank calculator Homer can do it but it is expensive. http://www.homerenergy.com On Sep 15, 2015 9:31 AM, "RE Ellison" wrote: I don't think it can be done accurately with a sizing tool i've actually never heard of a tool at least not that I can remember There's far too many variables. Everything from loads to solar isolation as well as the habits of the individual occupants and the appliance selection in the home The old joke used to be calculate what you needed for three days and then double it as far as battery bank size Just a few thoughts, batten five dollars will get your cuppa coffee and a lot of convenient stores Bob Ellison > On Sep 15, 2015, at 9:21 AM, gary easton wrote: > > anyone have a suggestion for a battery bank sizing tool? > > -- > Sent from Gmail Mobile > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solareagle at solareagle.com Tue Sep 15 23:30:14 2015 From: solareagle at solareagle.com (RM You) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 20:30:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] panel failure In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8099EDF3-7557-436A-A5EB-9E3B1662239F@solareagle.com> Just wondering if any esteemed wrenches have an idea what could cause this problem? Customer says nothing unusual happened that he is aware of and the panels had been working fine for many years but now 4 of 6 panels just quit. Doesn’t appear to be a diode failure. Ron > On Sep 11, 2015, at 4:58 PM, RM You wrote: > > I have a customer who has 6 siemens 48w panels that are 20 years old (hooked in parallel to a 12v battery). He says that 4 of them have failed in that there is no output unless he bypasses the diodes. However he pulled the diodes and checked them on a diode check and separately on a battery with a light bulb and they appear to be functioning correctly. Any ideas what could be causing this anomaly? > > Ron Young > From allan at sindelarsolar.com Wed Sep 16 00:01:42 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 21:01:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery bank calculator In-Reply-To: <007601d0f01b$9c606290$d52127b0$@com> References: <49854190-0F3C-4E51-B960-998E39C593E1@gmail.com> <007601d0f01b$9c606290$d52127b0$@com> Message-ID: David, Windy's system sizing spreadsheet was first developed in the 1990s or so, when PV was expensive and lead (and copper) were relatively cheap. In those days, "one panel per battery" was a standard rule of thumb -but panels were seldom more than 55 watts, so 110 watts (6 1/2 A) was about standard for a pair of golf carts. That's a C/34 charge rate, max. This past spring Windy and I revised that spreadsheet to reflect modern sizing and economics. It now works with any module cell count, for example. Contact me off list if you'd like a copy. (Be patient for the reply as I'm currently traveling.) > On Sep 15, 2015, at 6:04 PM, "Dave" wrote: > > The AEE catalog battery sizing template works well as it allows you to dial back the days of autonomy needed. As I remember the old Dankoff Solar battery sizing method pushed the watt hour size of battery banks to large, and expensive, levels. > > The collective experience of this group, and others, has emphasized designing off grid pv system's where the primary consideration is ample PV array sizing and where the storage battery is sized in the C/10 range. With lower module prices this has been practical for a few years now and it has been demonstrated that smaller watt hour battery banks have proven to be not only cost savers but also perform well for years as they live in a system where they are very likely to be fully charged on a regular basis. > > Even here in northern Vermont where we experience late fall and winter daily peak sun hours in the 1 hr/day average range, designing large battery banks has been frowned on for many years out of my shop. Oversize the pv array and run the generator when needed. > > David Palumbo > Independent Power LLC > 462 Solar Way Drive > Hyde Park, VT 05655 > 802-371-8678 cell > > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Mason > Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 5:39 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery bank calculator > > Homer can do it but it is expensive. > http://www.homerenergy.com > > On Sep 15, 2015 9:31 AM, "RE Ellison" wrote: > I don't think it can be done accurately with a sizing tool i've actually never heard of a tool at least not that I can remember > > There's far too many variables. > Everything from loads to solar isolation as well as the habits of the individual occupants and the appliance selection in the home > > The old joke used to be calculate what you needed for three days and then double it as far as battery bank size > > Just a few thoughts, batten five dollars will get your cuppa coffee and a lot of convenient stores > > Bob Ellison > > > > > On Sep 15, 2015, at 9:21 AM, gary easton wrote: > > > > anyone have a suggestion for a battery bank sizing tool? > > > > -- > > Sent from Gmail Mobile > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Wed Sep 16 00:03:57 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 21:03:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery bank calculator In-Reply-To: <007601d0f01b$9c606290$d52127b0$@com> References: <49854190-0F3C-4E51-B960-998E39C593E1@gmail.com> <007601d0f01b$9c606290$d52127b0$@com> Message-ID: <6EB43909-C8E5-48F5-B359-C869B33FE21E@sindelarsolar.com> (Sent accidentally before ready) That offer to send the sizing spreadsheet was meant for anyone on the list, not just Dave. Allan > On Sep 15, 2015, at 6:04 PM, "Dave" wrote: > > The AEE catalog battery sizing template works well as it allows you to dial back the days of autonomy needed. As I remember the old Dankoff Solar battery sizing method pushed the watt hour size of battery banks to large, and expensive, levels. > > The collective experience of this group, and others, has emphasized designing off grid pv system's where the primary consideration is ample PV array sizing and where the storage battery is sized in the C/10 range. With lower module prices this has been practical for a few years now and it has been demonstrated that smaller watt hour battery banks have proven to be not only cost savers but also perform well for years as they live in a system where they are very likely to be fully charged on a regular basis. > > Even here in northern Vermont where we experience late fall and winter daily peak sun hours in the 1 hr/day average range, designing large battery banks has been frowned on for many years out of my shop. Oversize the pv array and run the generator when needed. > > David Palumbo > Independent Power LLC > 462 Solar Way Drive > Hyde Park, VT 05655 > 802-371-8678 cell > > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Mason > Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 5:39 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery bank calculator > > Homer can do it but it is expensive. > http://www.homerenergy.com > > On Sep 15, 2015 9:31 AM, "RE Ellison" wrote: > I don't think it can be done accurately with a sizing tool i've actually never heard of a tool at least not that I can remember > > There's far too many variables. > Everything from loads to solar isolation as well as the habits of the individual occupants and the appliance selection in the home > > The old joke used to be calculate what you needed for three days and then double it as far as battery bank size > > Just a few thoughts, batten five dollars will get your cuppa coffee and a lot of convenient stores > > Bob Ellison > > > > > On Sep 15, 2015, at 9:21 AM, gary easton wrote: > > > > anyone have a suggestion for a battery bank sizing tool? > > > > -- > > Sent from Gmail Mobile > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Wed Sep 16 00:07:00 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 21:07:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] panel failure In-Reply-To: <8099EDF3-7557-436A-A5EB-9E3B1662239F@solareagle.com> References: <8099EDF3-7557-436A-A5EB-9E3B1662239F@solareagle.com> Message-ID: <973F6447-9FEB-449C-982A-4A776076DB6C@sindelarsolar.com> Ron, The lack of response may indeed be your answer. I didn't reply because it hasn't happened on my watch and I have no idea what would cause what you describe. Allan > On Sep 15, 2015, at 8:30 PM, RM You wrote: > > Just wondering if any esteemed wrenches have an idea what could cause this problem? Customer says nothing unusual happened that he is aware of and the panels had been working fine for many years but now 4 of 6 panels just quit. Doesn’t appear to be a diode failure. > > Ron > >> On Sep 11, 2015, at 4:58 PM, RM You wrote: >> >> I have a customer who has 6 siemens 48w panels that are 20 years old (hooked in parallel to a 12v battery). He says that 4 of them have failed in that there is no output unless he bypasses the diodes. However he pulled the diodes and checked them on a diode check and separately on a battery with a light bulb and they appear to be functioning correctly. Any ideas what could be causing this anomaly? >> >> Ron Young >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From solareagle at solareagle.com Wed Sep 16 02:44:32 2015 From: solareagle at solareagle.com (Ron Young) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 23:44:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] panel failure In-Reply-To: <973F6447-9FEB-449C-982A-4A776076DB6C@sindelarsolar.com> References: <8099EDF3-7557-436A-A5EB-9E3B1662239F@solareagle.com> <973F6447-9FEB-449C-982A-4A776076DB6C@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Thanks Allan, I was wondering about the lack of response as this group is always very helpful. One begins to suspect the phantom cause, i.e. the rest of the story that wasn’t told to us by the customer. It happens from time to time ;-) Ron > On Sep 15, 2015, at 9:07 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > > Ron, > The lack of response may indeed be your answer. I didn't reply because it hasn't happened on my watch and I have no idea what would cause what you describe. > Allan > >> On Sep 15, 2015, at 8:30 PM, RM You wrote: >> >> Just wondering if any esteemed wrenches have an idea what could cause this problem? Customer says nothing unusual happened that he is aware of and the panels had been working fine for many years but now 4 of 6 panels just quit. Doesn’t appear to be a diode failure. >> >> Ron >> >>> On Sep 11, 2015, at 4:58 PM, RM You wrote: >>> >>> I have a customer who has 6 siemens 48w panels that are 20 years old (hooked in parallel to a 12v battery). He says that 4 of them have failed in that there is no output unless he bypasses the diodes. However he pulled the diodes and checked them on a diode check and separately on a battery with a light bulb and they appear to be functioning correctly. Any ideas what could be causing this anomaly? >>> >>> Ron Young >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com Wed Sep 16 02:57:43 2015 From: bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com (Brian Teitelbaum) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 23:57:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] panel failure In-Reply-To: References: <8099EDF3-7557-436A-A5EB-9E3B1662239F@solareagle.com> <973F6447-9FEB-449C-982A-4A776076DB6C@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <638bf7ad28288c5c2308b97460a9acbb@mail.gmail.com> Ron, I'll pipe in here. If the module "works" when he bypasses the diodes, then the diodes, or the solder connections on the ribbons or the diodes, must be at fault. I put "works" in quotes because we don't have the details on the meter readings. Brian AEE Solar -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ron Young Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 11:45 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] panel failure Thanks Allan, I was wondering about the lack of response as this group is always very helpful. One begins to suspect the phantom cause, i.e. the rest of the story that wasn’t told to us by the customer. It happens from time to time ;-) Ron > On Sep 15, 2015, at 9:07 PM, Allan Sindelar > wrote: > > Ron, > The lack of response may indeed be your answer. I didn't reply because it > hasn't happened on my watch and I have no idea what would cause what you > describe. > Allan > >> On Sep 15, 2015, at 8:30 PM, RM You wrote: >> >> Just wondering if any esteemed wrenches have an idea what could cause >> this problem? Customer says nothing unusual happened that he is aware of >> and the panels had been working fine for many years but now 4 of 6 panels >> just quit. Doesn’t appear to be a diode failure. >> >> Ron >> >>> On Sep 11, 2015, at 4:58 PM, RM You wrote: >>> >>> I have a customer who has 6 siemens 48w panels that are 20 years old >>> (hooked in parallel to a 12v battery). He says that 4 of them have >>> failed in that there is no output unless he bypasses the diodes. However >>> he pulled the diodes and checked them on a diode check and separately on >>> a battery with a light bulb and they appear to be functioning correctly. >>> Any ideas what could be causing this anomaly? >>> >>> Ron Young >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Sep 16 02:46:44 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 20:46:44 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius inverters Message-ID: Wrenches Has anyone had any issues with water getting into Fronius Simo's and Promo's, Jerry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From windsine at gmail.com Wed Sep 16 08:47:48 2015 From: windsine at gmail.com (Roy Rakobitsch) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 07:47:48 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] panel failure In-Reply-To: <638bf7ad28288c5c2308b97460a9acbb@mail.gmail.com> References: <8099EDF3-7557-436A-A5EB-9E3B1662239F@solareagle.com> <973F6447-9FEB-449C-982A-4A776076DB6C@sindelarsolar.com> <638bf7ad28288c5c2308b97460a9acbb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Ron, I replied a few days ago, ill fwd if you want. Roy Rakobitsch NABCEP Certified Small Wind Installer® NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® Certified Advanced Tower Climbing, Safety & Rescue Wind/PV Design Engineer Windsine LLC 631-514-4166 www.windsine.org On Sep 16, 2015 1:57 AM, "Brian Teitelbaum" wrote: > Ron, > > I'll pipe in here. If the module "works" when he bypasses the diodes, then > the diodes, or the solder connections on the ribbons or the diodes, must be > at fault. > > I put "works" in quotes because we don't have the details on the meter > readings. > > Brian > AEE Solar > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Ron Young > Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 11:45 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] panel failure > > Thanks Allan, I was wondering about the lack of response as this group is > always very helpful. One begins to suspect the phantom cause, i.e. the rest > of the story that wasn’t told to us by the customer. It happens from time > to > time ;-) > > Ron > > > On Sep 15, 2015, at 9:07 PM, Allan Sindelar > > wrote: > > > > Ron, > > The lack of response may indeed be your answer. I didn't reply because it > > hasn't happened on my watch and I have no idea what would cause what you > > describe. > > Allan > > > >> On Sep 15, 2015, at 8:30 PM, RM You wrote: > >> > >> Just wondering if any esteemed wrenches have an idea what could cause > >> this problem? Customer says nothing unusual happened that he is aware of > >> and the panels had been working fine for many years but now 4 of 6 > panels > >> just quit. Doesn’t appear to be a diode failure. > >> > >> Ron > >> > >>> On Sep 11, 2015, at 4:58 PM, RM You wrote: > >>> > >>> I have a customer who has 6 siemens 48w panels that are 20 years old > >>> (hooked in parallel to a 12v battery). He says that 4 of them have > >>> failed in that there is no output unless he bypasses the diodes. > However > >>> he pulled the diodes and checked them on a diode check and separately > on > >>> a battery with a light bulb and they appear to be functioning > correctly. > >>> Any ideas what could be causing this anomaly? > >>> > >>> Ron Young > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List-Archive: > >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >> > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From windsine at gmail.com Wed Sep 16 08:52:35 2015 From: windsine at gmail.com (Roy Rakobitsch) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 07:52:35 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] panel failure In-Reply-To: References: <8099EDF3-7557-436A-A5EB-9E3B1662239F@solareagle.com> <973F6447-9FEB-449C-982A-4A776076DB6C@sindelarsolar.com> <638bf7ad28288c5c2308b97460a9acbb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Although i cant vouch for 20 year old siemens, my siemens modules (14 yr old sp-150s) had an intermittent connection develop between the stainless ribbon that exits the back sheet and the terminal where the blocking diodes connect (3 diodes). They used a spot welder to join the materials. This had opened up - the small spot welds broke. Like I said, yours may be different, but might be worth a shot scoping out the integrity of these connections. This would be on the posts that feed the blocking diodes, so before the diodes. Roy Rakobitsch NABCEP Certified Small Wind Installer® NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® Certified Advanced Tower Climbing, Safety & Rescue Wind/PV Design Engineer Windsine LLC 631-514-4166 www.windsine.org On Sep 16, 2015 7:47 AM, "Roy Rakobitsch" wrote: > Ron, I replied a few days ago, ill fwd if you want. > > Roy Rakobitsch > NABCEP Certified Small Wind Installer® > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® > Certified Advanced Tower Climbing, Safety & Rescue > Wind/PV Design Engineer > Windsine LLC > 631-514-4166 > www.windsine.org > On Sep 16, 2015 1:57 AM, "Brian Teitelbaum" > wrote: > >> Ron, >> >> I'll pipe in here. If the module "works" when he bypasses the diodes, then >> the diodes, or the solder connections on the ribbons or the diodes, must >> be >> at fault. >> >> I put "works" in quotes because we don't have the details on the meter >> readings. >> >> Brian >> AEE Solar >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On >> Behalf Of Ron Young >> Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 11:45 PM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] panel failure >> >> Thanks Allan, I was wondering about the lack of response as this group is >> always very helpful. One begins to suspect the phantom cause, i.e. the >> rest >> of the story that wasn’t told to us by the customer. It happens from time >> to >> time ;-) >> >> Ron >> >> > On Sep 15, 2015, at 9:07 PM, Allan Sindelar >> > wrote: >> > >> > Ron, >> > The lack of response may indeed be your answer. I didn't reply because >> it >> > hasn't happened on my watch and I have no idea what would cause what you >> > describe. >> > Allan >> > >> >> On Sep 15, 2015, at 8:30 PM, RM You wrote: >> >> >> >> Just wondering if any esteemed wrenches have an idea what could cause >> >> this problem? Customer says nothing unusual happened that he is aware >> of >> >> and the panels had been working fine for many years but now 4 of 6 >> panels >> >> just quit. Doesn’t appear to be a diode failure. >> >> >> >> Ron >> >> >> >>> On Sep 11, 2015, at 4:58 PM, RM You >> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> I have a customer who has 6 siemens 48w panels that are 20 years old >> >>> (hooked in parallel to a 12v battery). He says that 4 of them have >> >>> failed in that there is no output unless he bypasses the diodes. >> However >> >>> he pulled the diodes and checked them on a diode check and separately >> on >> >>> a battery with a light bulb and they appear to be functioning >> correctly. >> >>> Any ideas what could be causing this anomaly? >> >>> >> >>> Ron Young >> >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> List-Archive: >> >> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> > >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Wed Sep 16 08:34:26 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 06:34:26 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] panel failure In-Reply-To: <8099EDF3-7557-436A-A5EB-9E3B1662239F@solareagle.com> References: <8099EDF3-7557-436A-A5EB-9E3B1662239F@solareagle.com> Message-ID: <004d01d0f07c$06e61fa0$14b25ee0$@com> Have you looked very carefully for any brown spots on the panels where a junction may have burned? I have had a couple of old arrays in the last few years go south and there were very small burned connections, sometimes accompanied but a slight brown mark or bubble on the front & back of the modules. To their credit Kyocera actually replaced 2 complete arrays including freight and (cough) another large Manu same name Euro OIL Company dodged the replacement with verbiage twice. This has been a lesson in reading the fine print. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of RM You Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 9:30 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] panel failure Just wondering if any esteemed wrenches have an idea what could cause this problem? Customer says nothing unusual happened that he is aware of and the panels had been working fine for many years but now 4 of 6 panels just quit. Doesn’t appear to be a diode failure. Ron > On Sep 11, 2015, at 4:58 PM, RM You wrote: > > I have a customer who has 6 siemens 48w panels that are 20 years old (hooked in parallel to a 12v battery). He says that 4 of them have failed in that there is no output unless he bypasses the diodes. However he pulled the diodes and checked them on a diode check and separately on a battery with a light bulb and they appear to be functioning correctly. Any ideas what could be causing this anomaly? > > Ron Young > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Sep 16 10:37:58 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 07:37:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] panel failure In-Reply-To: <8099EDF3-7557-436A-A5EB-9E3B1662239F@solareagle.com> References: <8099EDF3-7557-436A-A5EB-9E3B1662239F@solareagle.com> Message-ID: <3D60C780-B50C-49E1-A959-714024F12761@gmail.com> HI Ron, I have seen this a few times. And just a month or so ago. You can measure VOC and its right. You can measure ISC and its right, but no power. As someone said, there is a weak/bad connection. Usually its on a main ribbon. Its just barely making connection. Enough you can get VOC. And when you go for ISC with good sun, it’ll arc and give you good connection there. But for reasons I don’t understand, it doesn’t always make that connection for power. I even had one module that if you shorted it (ISC) and then connected it to load it would work, but next morning, nothing. I’d check the junction box first, but you might also find something in the main ribbon connections. A thermal gun might find it. good luck, jay peltz power sent 7:37am 9/16/15 > On Sep 15, 2015, at 8:30 PM, RM You wrote: > > Just wondering if any esteemed wrenches have an idea what could cause this problem? Customer says nothing unusual happened that he is aware of and the panels had been working fine for many years but now 4 of 6 panels just quit. Doesn’t appear to be a diode failure. > > Ron > >> On Sep 11, 2015, at 4:58 PM, RM You wrote: >> >> I have a customer who has 6 siemens 48w panels that are 20 years old (hooked in parallel to a 12v battery). He says that 4 of them have failed in that there is no output unless he bypasses the diodes. However he pulled the diodes and checked them on a diode check and separately on a battery with a light bulb and they appear to be functioning correctly. Any ideas what could be causing this anomaly? >> >> Ron Young >> > > > From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Sep 16 12:07:16 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 12:07:16 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 80kW Radian Message-ID: Has anyone actually implemented 80kW of paralleled Radian power output, and if so, what battery and capacity did you use? ​Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group​ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Sep 16 22:47:24 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 20:47:24 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 80kW Radian In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55FA29BC.5050405@solarray.com> I would add to your question: What BOS battery disconnect and combiner are folks using? Outback can stack but doesn't offer the other gear. I can share some pics supplied by their Tech support of a 5 Radian setup using telecom style overhead Buss bars; not sure how many inspectors are going to pass off on that though. Would that not need a 2000 amp shunt for instance? R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 9/16/2015 10:07 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > Has anyone actually implemented 80kW of paralleled Radian power > output, and if so, what battery and capacity did you use? > > ​Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group​ > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solareagle at solareagle.com Thu Sep 17 18:02:03 2015 From: solareagle at solareagle.com (RM You) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 15:02:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] panel failure In-Reply-To: <3D60C780-B50C-49E1-A959-714024F12761@gmail.com> References: <8099EDF3-7557-436A-A5EB-9E3B1662239F@solareagle.com> <3D60C780-B50C-49E1-A959-714024F12761@gmail.com> Message-ID: <571796DF-8EA7-42B0-A795-9B79526E54D9@solareagle.com> Great thanks for the reply Jay, at least I know someone else has seen the same thing. Odd that it would just happen on 4 panels unexplainably. Maybe a transient from a lightning strike or something. Ron > On Sep 16, 2015, at 7:37 AM, jay wrote: > > HI Ron, > > I have seen this a few times. And just a month or so ago. > > You can measure VOC and its right. You can measure ISC and its right, but no power. > > As someone said, there is a weak/bad connection. Usually its on a main ribbon. > Its just barely making connection. Enough you can get VOC. And when you go for ISC with good sun, it’ll arc and give you good connection there. > But for reasons I don’t understand, it doesn’t always make that connection for power. > > I even had one module that if you shorted it (ISC) and then connected it to load it would work, but next morning, nothing. > > I’d check the junction box first, but you might also find something in the main ribbon connections. A thermal gun might find it. > > good luck, > > jay > > peltz power > sent 7:37am 9/16/15 > > >> On Sep 15, 2015, at 8:30 PM, RM You wrote: >> >> Just wondering if any esteemed wrenches have an idea what could cause this problem? Customer says nothing unusual happened that he is aware of and the panels had been working fine for many years but now 4 of 6 panels just quit. Doesn’t appear to be a diode failure. >> >> Ron >> >>> On Sep 11, 2015, at 4:58 PM, RM You wrote: >>> >>> I have a customer who has 6 siemens 48w panels that are 20 years old (hooked in parallel to a 12v battery). He says that 4 of them have failed in that there is no output unless he bypasses the diodes. However he pulled the diodes and checked them on a diode check and separately on a battery with a light bulb and they appear to be functioning correctly. Any ideas what could be causing this anomaly? >>> >>> Ron Young >>> >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From nponzio at buildingenergyus.com Thu Sep 17 18:31:07 2015 From: nponzio at buildingenergyus.com (Nik Ponzio, Building Energy) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 18:31:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] remember the pirate solar inverter? Message-ID: Question for the old timers out there: What was very early micro inverter called that was designed to plug directly into the wall? It had DC input for single solar panel and the output was a live 120V male plug. On a related note, is there anything like the SMA Secure Power Supply inverters that will run off just 1 or 2 panels? Thanks for any insight.. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amfrish at aeonsolar.com Thu Sep 17 18:38:01 2015 From: amfrish at aeonsolar.com (Allen Frishman) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 18:38:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6F33E591-7A7F-4C8C-8232-7C301149606E@aeonsolar.com> Jerry, I have not installed any of these but am considering them on an upcoming project. How big of an issue are you seeing? Al Frishman AeonSolar (917) 699-6641 - cell (888) 460-2867 www.aeonsolar.com On Sep 16, 2015, at 2:46 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches > Has anyone had any issues with water getting into Fronius Simo's and Promo's, > Jerry > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Thu Sep 17 18:38:27 2015 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 15:38:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] remember the pirate solar inverter? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Nik: See Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_micro-inverter Quote: “In 1993 Mastervolt introduced their first grid-tie inverter , the Sunmaster 130S, based on a collaborative effort between Shell Solar, Ecofys and ECN. The 130 was designed to mount directly to the back of the panel, connecting both AC and DC lines with compression fittings . In 2000, the 130 was replaced by the Soladin 120, a microinverter in the form of an AC adapter that allows panels to be connected simply by plugging them into any wall socket .” Best, August Luminalt *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Nik Ponzio, Building Energy *Sent:* Thursday, September 17, 2015 3:31 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] remember the pirate solar inverter? Question for the old timers out there: What was very early micro inverter called that was designed to plug directly into the wall? It had DC input for single solar panel and the output was a live 120V male plug. On a related note, is there anything like the SMA Secure Power Supply inverters that will run off just 1 or 2 panels? Thanks for any insight.. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hathasolar at yahoo.com Thu Sep 17 18:43:20 2015 From: hathasolar at yahoo.com (Wesley Kennedy) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 15:43:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius inverters In-Reply-To: <6F33E591-7A7F-4C8C-8232-7C301149606E@aeonsolar.com> References: <6F33E591-7A7F-4C8C-8232-7C301149606E@aeonsolar.com> Message-ID: They are Nema 4x rated. If water is getting in, it's coming in thru the conduit -Wes 303-653-3073 > On Sep 17, 2015, at 3:38 PM, Allen Frishman wrote: > > Jerry, > I have not installed any of these but am considering them on an upcoming project. How big of an issue are you seeing? > Al Frishman > AeonSolar > > (917) 699-6641 - cell > (888) 460-2867 > www.aeonsolar.com > > >> On Sep 16, 2015, at 2:46 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >> >> Wrenches >> Has anyone had any issues with water getting into Fronius Simo's and Promo's, >> Jerry >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roy at four-winds-energy.com Thu Sep 17 19:03:30 2015 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 19:03:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] remember the pirate solar inverter? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55FB46C2.7000508@four-winds-energy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nponzio at buildingenergyus.com Thu Sep 17 19:17:17 2015 From: nponzio at buildingenergyus.com (Nik Ponzio, Building Energy) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 19:17:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] remember the pirate solar inverter? In-Reply-To: <55FB46C2.7000508@four-winds-energy.com> References: <55FB46C2.7000508@four-winds-energy.com> Message-ID: Yes! OK4U! Thanks, Roy! On Sep 17, 2015 7:03 PM, "Roy Butler" wrote: > Was that the OK4U? > > Roy Butler > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® > NYSERDA eligible PV & wind installer > Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC > 8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807607-324-9747 www.four-winds-energy.com > > Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, > a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. > > > > On 9/17/2015 6:31 PM, Nik Ponzio, Building Energy wrote: > > Question for the old timers out there: What was very early micro inverter > called that was designed to plug directly into the wall? It had DC input > for single solar panel and the output was a live 120V male plug. > > On a related note, is there anything like the SMA Secure Power Supply > inverters that will run off just 1 or 2 panels? > > Thanks for any insight.. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Thu Sep 17 19:02:42 2015 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 16:02:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] remember the pirate solar inverter? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <841627.14626.bm@smtp115.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> "OK4U," then Trace bought the rights to rebrand it as a "Trace Microsine." I ran one of each, and still have a couple of the Trace ones kicking around somewhere from guerilla solar days, and I don't think they came with a plug. Nik Ponzio, Building Energy wrote at 03:31 PM 9/17/2015: >Question for the old timers out there: What was very early micro inverter called that was designed to plug directly into the wall? It had DC input for single solar panel and the output was a live 120V male plug. > >On a related note, is there anything like the SMA Secure Power Supply inverters that will run off just 1 or 2 panels? > >Thanks for any insight.. From boB at midnitesolar.com Thu Sep 17 19:54:57 2015 From: boB at midnitesolar.com (boB at midnitesolar.com) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 16:54:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] remember the pirate solar inverter? In-Reply-To: <841627.14626.bm@smtp115.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <841627.14626.bm@smtp115.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <55FB52D1.30103@midnitesolar.com> Yep. The OK4U was like 100 watts or 125 watts maybe ? I was the first one in the US to hook one up (I'm pretty sure ?) after Bill Ropenecker, the then CEO of Trace Engineering handed me after his trip to Europe and brought it back with him. boB On 9/17/2015 4:02 PM, Michael Welch wrote: > "OK4U," then Trace bought the rights to rebrand it as a "Trace Microsine." > > I ran one of each, and still have a couple of the Trace ones kicking around somewhere from guerilla solar days, and I don't think they came with a plug. > > > Nik Ponzio, Building Energy wrote at 03:31 PM 9/17/2015: > >> Question for the old timers out there: What was very early micro inverter called that was designed to plug directly into the wall? It had DC input for single solar panel and the output was a live 120V male plug. >> >> On a related note, is there anything like the SMA Secure Power Supply inverters that will run off just 1 or 2 panels? >> >> Thanks for any insight.. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Sep 17 20:00:26 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 17:00:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] remember the pirate solar inverter? In-Reply-To: <55FB52D1.30103@midnitesolar.com> References: <841627.14626.bm@smtp115.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <55FB52D1.30103@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: <24C0F52B-7CB7-4CC0-AEBF-B54D41D51150@gmail.com> The OK4U was made by NFK. first sold in Europe. Then sold here under the OK4U label. Then as Michael said the rights in the US were bought by Trace, as the MS100. 100 watt max. But didn’t come with a plug. You might have to talk to David Katz about who was first. As I seem to remember that AEE ( where i worked in the 90’s) sold them for a while, before they became the trace MS100. jay peltz power ( I’ve got 2 brand new ones with paperwork) > On Sep 17, 2015, at 4:54 PM, boB at midnitesolar.com wrote: > > > Yep. The OK4U was like 100 watts or 125 watts maybe ? > > I was the first one in the US to hook one up (I'm pretty sure ?) after Bill Ropenecker, the then > CEO of Trace Engineering handed me after his trip to Europe and brought > it back with him. > > boB > > > On 9/17/2015 4:02 PM, Michael Welch wrote: >> "OK4U," then Trace bought the rights to rebrand it as a "Trace Microsine." >> >> I ran one of each, and still have a couple of the Trace ones kicking around somewhere from guerilla solar days, and I don't think they came with a plug. >> >> >> Nik Ponzio, Building Energy wrote at 03:31 PM 9/17/2015: >> >>> Question for the old timers out there: What was very early micro inverter called that was designed to plug directly into the wall? It had DC input for single solar panel and the output was a live 120V male plug. >>> >>> On a related note, is there anything like the SMA Secure Power Supply inverters that will run off just 1 or 2 panels? >>> >>> Thanks for any insight.. >> _______________________________________________ > From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Sep 17 18:56:34 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 12:56:34 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius inverters In-Reply-To: <6F33E591-7A7F-4C8C-8232-7C301149606E@aeonsolar.com> References: <6F33E591-7A7F-4C8C-8232-7C301149606E@aeonsolar.com> Message-ID: 8 out of 8 had water some 1 in some more, it is hard to tell because it drains into the conduit and filled the breaker panel until it ran out of there. I think the issue is not that it is not water proof but when we get rail it can be over 4 in and hr at times, we have had hurricanes miss us nearly every week. I am planning to put a roof over the 8 units to protect them from the amount of rain. Once you look at the way the unit goes together you will see how it can flood the inverter if there is that much water. Jerry On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 12:38 PM, Allen Frishman wrote: > Jerry, > I have not installed any of these but am considering them on an upcoming > project. How big of an issue are you seeing? > > *Al Frishman* > AeonSolar > > *(917) 699-6641 <%28917%29%20699-6641> - cell* > *(888) 460-2867 <%28888%29%20460-2867>* > *www.aeonsolar.com * > > On Sep 16, 2015, at 2:46 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Wrenches > Has anyone had any issues with water getting into Fronius Simo's and > Promo's, > Jerry > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Sep 17 20:02:46 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 17:02:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 300 watt 60 cell In-Reply-To: <55FB46C2.7000508@four-winds-energy.com> References: <55FB46C2.7000508@four-winds-energy.com> Message-ID: HI All, I’m looking for 300 watt ( 290-310 watt) 60 cell modules for client. But I’m having trouble finding anyone carrying them. Any suggestions? thanks in advance. jay peltz power From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Sep 17 20:22:36 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 17:22:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] panel failure In-Reply-To: <571796DF-8EA7-42B0-A795-9B79526E54D9@solareagle.com> References: <8099EDF3-7557-436A-A5EB-9E3B1662239F@solareagle.com> <3D60C780-B50C-49E1-A959-714024F12761@gmail.com> <571796DF-8EA7-42B0-A795-9B79526E54D9@solareagle.com> Message-ID: <28230AB7-4B4D-4EBF-9264-30C82C42C9FA@gmail.com> HI Ron, Lighting is possible of course, but I’d guess that one or more had failed some time ago. It was only when enough failed that it didn’t charge and thats when you found out. At least thats when my customer found out. These were astropower’s. jay peltz power. > On Sep 17, 2015, at 3:02 PM, RM You wrote: > > Great thanks for the reply Jay, at least I know someone else has seen the same thing. Odd that it would just happen on 4 panels unexplainably. Maybe a transient from a lightning strike or something. > > Ron > >> On Sep 16, 2015, at 7:37 AM, jay wrote: >> >> HI Ron, >> >> I have seen this a few times. And just a month or so ago. >> >> You can measure VOC and its right. You can measure ISC and its right, but no power. >> >> As someone said, there is a weak/bad connection. Usually its on a main ribbon. >> Its just barely making connection. Enough you can get VOC. And when you go for ISC with good sun, it’ll arc and give you good connection there. >> But for reasons I don’t understand, it doesn’t always make that connection for power. >> >> I even had one module that if you shorted it (ISC) and then connected it to load it would work, but next morning, nothing. >> >> I’d check the junction box first, but you might also find something in the main ribbon connections. A thermal gun might find it. >> >> good luck, >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> sent 7:37am 9/16/15 >> >> >>> On Sep 15, 2015, at 8:30 PM, RM You wrote: >>> >>> Just wondering if any esteemed wrenches have an idea what could cause this problem? Customer says nothing unusual happened that he is aware of and the panels had been working fine for many years but now 4 of 6 panels just quit. Doesn’t appear to be a diode failure. >>> >>> Ron >>> >>>> On Sep 11, 2015, at 4:58 PM, RM You wrote: >>>> >>>> I have a customer who has 6 siemens 48w panels that are 20 years old (hooked in parallel to a 12v battery). He says that 4 of them have failed in that there is no output unless he bypasses the diodes. However he pulled the diodes and checked them on a diode check and separately on a battery with a light bulb and they appear to be functioning correctly. Any ideas what could be causing this anomaly? >>>> >>>> Ron Young >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From toddcory at finestplanet.com Thu Sep 17 22:12:04 2015 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 19:12:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?remember_the_pirate_solar_inverter=3F?= In-Reply-To: <55FB52D1.30103@midnitesolar.com> References: <841627.14626.bm@smtp115.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <55FB52D1.30103@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: <1442542324.67035238@webmail.finestplanet.com> afaik the first example of "AC coupling" was when one of these "trace microsines" was plugged into the off grid system (sw4024?) at richard perez's home back in ~1995? todd On Thursday, September 17, 2015 4:54pm, "boB at midnitesolar.com" said: > > Yep. The OK4U was like 100 watts or 125 watts maybe ? > > I was the first one in the US to hook one up (I'm pretty sure ?) after > Bill Ropenecker, the then > CEO of Trace Engineering handed me after his trip to Europe and brought > it back with him. > > boB > > > On 9/17/2015 4:02 PM, Michael Welch wrote: > > "OK4U," then Trace bought the rights to rebrand it as a "Trace Microsine." > > > > I ran one of each, and still have a couple of the Trace ones kicking around > somewhere from guerilla solar days, and I don't think they came with a plug. > > > > > > Nik Ponzio, Building Energy wrote at 03:31 PM 9/17/2015: > > > >> Question for the old timers out there: What was very early micro inverter > called that was designed to plug directly into the wall? It had DC input for > single solar panel and the output was a live 120V male plug. > >> > >> On a related note, is there anything like the SMA Secure Power Supply > inverters that will run off just 1 or 2 panels? > >> > >> Thanks for any insight.. > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff at hudsonsolar.com Fri Sep 18 00:24:02 2015 From: jeff at hudsonsolar.com (Jeff Irish) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 04:24:02 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 300 watt 60 cell In-Reply-To: References: <55FB46C2.7000508@four-winds-energy.com> Message-ID: LG Neon? Available through several distributors. Jeff -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2015 8:03 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] 300 watt 60 cell HI All, I'm looking for 300 watt ( 290-310 watt) 60 cell modules for client. But I'm having trouble finding anyone carrying them. Any suggestions? thanks in advance. jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Fri Sep 18 07:51:02 2015 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 07:51:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] 300 watt 60 cell In-Reply-To: References: <55FB46C2.7000508@four-winds-energy.com> Message-ID: <30f6ea726ae71a82da676fc532c1d600.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> LG even has a 305 Neon. Very nice modules. Daryl > LG Neon? Available through several distributors. > > Jeff > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of jay > Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2015 8:03 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] 300 watt 60 cell > > HI All, > > I'm looking for 300 watt ( 290-310 watt) 60 cell modules for client. But > I'm having trouble finding anyone carrying them. > > Any suggestions? > > thanks in advance. > > jay > > peltz power > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Fri Sep 18 10:00:18 2015 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (Michael Nelson) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 07:00:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] remember the pirate solar inverter? In-Reply-To: <1442542324.67035238@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <841627.14626.bm@smtp115.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <55FB52D1.30103@midnitesolar.com> <1442542324.67035238@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: Nik, Look at the cyboinverter, I just picked one up to try out at my own home, the model designed to heat water in an electric heating element. They make a micro grid product as well, no batteries. Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com > On Sep 17, 2015, at 7:12 PM, toddcory at finestplanet.com wrote: > > afaik the first example of "AC coupling" was when one of these "trace microsines" was plugged into the off grid system (sw4024?) at richard perez's home back in ~1995? > > todd > > > > > On Thursday, September 17, 2015 4:54pm, "boB at midnitesolar.com" said: > > > > > Yep. The OK4U was like 100 watts or 125 watts maybe ? > > > > I was the first one in the US to hook one up (I'm pretty sure ?) after > > Bill Ropenecker, the then > > CEO of Trace Engineering handed me after his trip to Europe and brought > > it back with him. > > > > boB > > > > > > On 9/17/2015 4:02 PM, Michael Welch wrote: > > > "OK4U," then Trace bought the rights to rebrand it as a "Trace Microsine." > > > > > > I ran one of each, and still have a couple of the Trace ones kicking around > > somewhere from guerilla solar days, and I don't think they came with a plug. > > > > > > > > > Nik Ponzio, Building Energy wrote at 03:31 PM 9/17/2015: > > > > > >> Question for the old timers out there: What was very early micro inverter > > called that was designed to plug directly into the wall? It had DC input for > > single solar panel and the output was a live 120V male plug. > > >> > > >> On a related note, is there anything like the SMA Secure Power Supply > > inverters that will run off just 1 or 2 panels? > > >> > > >> Thanks for any insight.. > > > _______________________________________________ > > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From phil at insoltechsolar.com Fri Sep 18 11:30:56 2015 From: phil at insoltechsolar.com (Philip Lawes Insoltech) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 08:30:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 300 watt 60 cell In-Reply-To: <30f6ea726ae71a82da676fc532c1d600.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> References: <55FB46C2.7000508@four-winds-energy.com> <30f6ea726ae71a82da676fc532c1d600.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> Message-ID: <016601d0f227$03a3b0d0$0aeb1270$@insoltechsolar.com> LG now offers a 315 watt 60 cell module. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 4:51 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 300 watt 60 cell LG even has a 305 Neon. Very nice modules. Daryl > LG Neon? Available through several distributors. > > Jeff > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > On Behalf Of jay > Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2015 8:03 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] 300 watt 60 cell > > HI All, > > I'm looking for 300 watt ( 290-310 watt) 60 cell modules for client. > But I'm having trouble finding anyone carrying them. > > Any suggestions? > > thanks in advance. > > jay > > peltz power > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Fri Sep 18 15:26:40 2015 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 15:26:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 300 watt 60 cell In-Reply-To: <016601d0f227$03a3b0d0$0aeb1270$@insoltechsolar.com> References: <55FB46C2.7000508@four-winds-energy.com> <30f6ea726ae71a82da676fc532c1d600.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> <016601d0f227$03a3b0d0$0aeb1270$@insoltechsolar.com> Message-ID: Yeah we just installed some LG 315's and I believe they are now at 320 in a 60 cell On Friday, September 18, 2015, Philip Lawes Insoltech < phil at insoltechsolar.com> wrote: > LG now offers a 315 watt 60 cell module. > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] On > Behalf Of penobscotsolar at midmaine.com > Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 4:51 AM > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 300 watt 60 cell > > LG even has a 305 Neon. Very nice modules. > > Daryl > > > > LG Neon? Available through several distributors. > > > > Jeff > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] > > On Behalf Of jay > > Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2015 8:03 PM > > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] 300 watt 60 cell > > > > HI All, > > > > I'm looking for 300 watt ( 290-310 watt) 60 cell modules for client. > > But I'm having trouble finding anyone carrying them. > > > > Any suggestions? > > > > thanks in advance. > > > > jay > > > > peltz power > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > > .html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > > .html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies 4872 State Route 9G Germantown NY, 12526 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at getpimby.com Mon Sep 21 09:18:04 2015 From: matt at getpimby.com (Matt Sherald) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 09:18:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC-coupling Enphase/XW Causes Flickering of Lights Message-ID: I wired an Enphase string into my critical loads panel at my shop. I was curious to see how it would work as I have customers with Enphase systems that occasionally contact me about adding a battery backup system. Why do the fluorescent lights and LEDs flicker once the grid power is dropped. The flicker seems to start as soon as there is enough sun to power up a few of the micros (they don't even have to be making much power). The shop is grid-tied with a XW 4024 for battery backup. Battery capacity is 370Ah. I'd love an explanation as to why this happens and if there is a way to mitigate the flicker I would also love to hear it. Many thanks! -- Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® 304-704-5943 www.getpimby.blogspot.com www.getpimby.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Sep 21 12:58:22 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 09:58:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC-coupling Enphase/XW Causes Flickering of Lights In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E3F4858-06A9-44CE-9C01-F260529D3806@gmail.com> Hi Matt, I can’t tell you the reason but I had the same problem on my Outback VFX. I didn’t put it on a O scope, but sure looked like a 60 cycle flicker to me. On my system of 2 enphase, when the loads exceeded the output of the enphase the flicker when away. But only 2 isn’t very real world. In the end it was just a test for me, and it didn’t work. jay peltz power > On Sep 21, 2015, at 6:18 AM, Matt Sherald wrote: > > I wired an Enphase string into my critical loads panel at my shop. I was curious to see how it would work as I have customers with Enphase systems that occasionally contact me about adding a battery backup system. > > Why do the fluorescent lights and LEDs flicker once the grid power is dropped. The flicker seems to start as soon as there is enough sun to power up a few of the micros (they don't even have to be making much power). > > The shop is grid-tied with a XW 4024 for battery backup. Battery capacity is 370Ah. > > I'd love an explanation as to why this happens and if there is a way to mitigate the flicker I would also love to hear it. > > Many thanks! > > -- > Matt Sherald > PIMBY Energy, LLC > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® > 304-704-5943 > > www.getpimby.blogspot.com > www.getpimby.com > > > _ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Sep 21 15:46:53 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 09:46:53 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC-coupling Enphase/XW Causes Flickering of Lights Message-ID: WrenchesCheck and confirm that the OB is not set in search, yhis will cause issues like this.Jerry Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: jay Date: 09/21/2015 6:58 AM (GMT-10:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC-coupling Enphase/XW Causes Flickering of Lights Hi Matt, I can’t tell you the reason but I had the same problem on my Outback VFX.I didn’t put it on a O scope, but sure looked like a 60 cycle flicker to me.   On my system of 2 enphase, when the loads exceeded the output of the enphase the flicker when away.But only 2 isn’t very real world. In the end it was just a test for me, and it didn’t work. jay peltz power On Sep 21, 2015, at 6:18 AM, Matt Sherald wrote: I wired an Enphase string into my critical loads panel at my shop.  I was curious to see how it would work as I have customers with Enphase systems that occasionally contact me about adding a battery backup system. Why do the fluorescent lights and LEDs flicker once the grid power is dropped.  The flicker seems to start as soon as there is enough sun to power up a few of the micros (they don't even have to be making much power). The shop is grid-tied with a XW 4024 for battery backup.  Battery capacity is 370Ah. I'd love an explanation as to why this happens and if there is a way to mitigate the flicker I would also love to hear it. Many thanks! -- Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® 304-704-5943 www.getpimby.blogspot.com www.getpimby.com _ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Sep 21 19:40:04 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 16:40:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC-coupling Enphase/XW Causes Flickering of Lights In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <683600DC-4FB3-466B-B1AE-6DC94F6A4646@gmail.com> Nope wasn't in search when I had flicker. If the loads were greater than the enphase production then no flicker. If it was "charging" then there was flicker. My vfx 3524 is 8+ years old, but I don't think that would be a factor. Jay. Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 21, 2015, at 12:46 PM, jerrysgarage01 wrote: > > Wrenches > Check and confirm that the OB is not set in search, yhis will cause issues like this. > Jerry > > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: jay > Date: 09/21/2015 6:58 AM (GMT-10:00) > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC-coupling Enphase/XW Causes Flickering of Lights > > Hi Matt, > > I can’t tell you the reason but I had the same problem on my Outback VFX. > I didn’t put it on a O scope, but sure looked like a 60 cycle flicker to me. > > On my system of 2 enphase, when the loads exceeded the output of the enphase the flicker when away. > But only 2 isn’t very real world. > > In the end it was just a test for me, and it didn’t work. > > jay > > peltz power >> On Sep 21, 2015, at 6:18 AM, Matt Sherald wrote: >> >> I wired an Enphase string into my critical loads panel at my shop. I was curious to see how it would work as I have customers with Enphase systems that occasionally contact me about adding a battery backup system. >> >> Why do the fluorescent lights and LEDs flicker once the grid power is dropped. The flicker seems to start as soon as there is enough sun to power up a few of the micros (they don't even have to be making much power). >> >> The shop is grid-tied with a XW 4024 for battery backup. Battery capacity is 370Ah. >> >> I'd love an explanation as to why this happens and if there is a way to mitigate the flicker I would also love to hear it. >> >> Many thanks! >> >> -- >> Matt Sherald >> PIMBY Energy, LLC >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® >> 304-704-5943 >> >> www.getpimby.blogspot.com >> www.getpimby.com >> >> >> _ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From boB at midnitesolar.com Mon Sep 21 19:51:11 2015 From: boB at midnitesolar.com (boB at midnitesolar.com) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 16:51:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC-coupling Enphase/XW Causes Flickering of Lights In-Reply-To: <683600DC-4FB3-466B-B1AE-6DC94F6A4646@gmail.com> References: <683600DC-4FB3-466B-B1AE-6DC94F6A4646@gmail.com> Message-ID: <560097EF.5010207@midnitesolar.com> If the inverter were in search, I would think that there would be no AC power produced by the micro inverters at all because of anti-islanding. boB On 9/21/2015 4:40 PM, Jay wrote: > Nope wasn't in search when I had flicker. > If the loads were greater than the enphase production then no flicker. > > If it was "charging" then there was flicker. > > My vfx 3524 is 8+ years old, but I don't think that would be a factor. > > Jay. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Sep 21, 2015, at 12:46 PM, jerrysgarage01 > wrote: > >> Wrenches >> Check and confirm that the OB is not set in search, yhis will cause >> issues like this. >> Jerry >> >> >> >> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone >> >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: jay > >> Date: 09/21/2015 6:58 AM (GMT-10:00) >> To: RE-wrenches > > >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC-coupling Enphase/XW Causes Flickering of >> Lights >> >> Hi Matt, >> >> I can’t tell you the reason but I had the same problem on my Outback VFX. >> I didn’t put it on a O scope, but sure looked like a 60 cycle flicker >> to me. >> >> On my system of 2 enphase, when the loads exceeded the output of the >> enphase the flicker when away. >> But only 2 isn’t very real world. >> >> In the end it was just a test for me, and it didn’t work. >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >>> On Sep 21, 2015, at 6:18 AM, Matt Sherald >> > wrote: >>> >>> I wired an Enphase string into my critical loads panel at my shop. >>> I was curious to see how it would work as I have customers with >>> Enphase systems that occasionally contact me about adding a battery >>> backup system. >>> >>> Why do the fluorescent lights and LEDs flicker once the grid power >>> is dropped. The flicker seems to start as soon as there is enough >>> sun to power up a few of the micros (they don't even have to be >>> making much power). >>> >>> The shop is grid-tied with a XW 4024 for battery backup. Battery >>> capacity is 370Ah. >>> >>> I'd love an explanation as to why this happens and if there is a way >>> to mitigate the flicker I would also love to hear it. >>> >>> Many thanks! >>> >>> -- >>> Matt Sherald >>> PIMBY Energy, LLC >>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® >>> 304-704-5943 >>> >>> www.getpimby.blogspot.com >>> www.getpimby.com >>> >>> >>> _ >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Sep 23 16:26:54 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 13:26:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop DC disconnects Message-ID: Dear Fellow Wrenches Below is a design conundrum that may resonate with some of you: We are finalizing a design for an off-grid residential system. The customer insist the PV should be on the roof and pre-installed a 1-1/4” PVC conduit from his roof to a crawl space, in anticipation of a solar install. This created real problems, because we all know we can’t pull PV source or output circuits in (or now, on) the envelopes of habitable buildings. There was no practical way to replace the PVC. We contrived a method to sleeve ¾” liquid-tight through the 1-1/4” PVC to the crawl space, continuing on with EMT. This is the largest metallic conduit we could fit. The distance was greater than 10 feet so we couldn’t use EMT. Due to the conduit size restriction, we upgraded to Morningstar 600 volt charge controllers, allowing us to reduce conductor size. (As a sidebar, although the Morningstar is listed as a 600 volt charge controller, we have found no circumstance were we could take advantage of that high a voltage. With the currently available high wattage modules, by the time we added enough in series to get to 600 volts, we were well beyond the wattage capabilities of the controller. For sake of design considerations, I suggest one regard these units as ~300 volt charge controllers.) We now have plans for 300 volt PV feeders running down an interior wall and under the house, with no roof-top disconnecting means. It is my understanding none are required. I am not comfortable with this. In this scenario, there is no safe way to replace either of the two Morningstar controllers. Should someone drill through or damage the EMT in the wall or under the floor, there would be no way to turn off the feeder. I don’t like putting HU361RBs on a roof. They must remain vertical and so they stick up too high and are hard to provide mounting for. Sola-deck units are another option, but they require integrating with shingles, not practical on this job or many others. I finally settled on a DC-Sunvolt PV-X16A-4X-RG disconnect as a possible solution. At $216 it is not out of range. The unit will provide means to turn off the feeders for service. I will report back on my impressions of the unit. To distill this scenario, I don’t believe the code requires a disconnect, but I feel morally obligated to install one. I’d be interested in verification of the code interpretation and others response to similar situations. I found no other options for rooftop disconnecting means that would be small, reasonably priced and not present a high profile. If there are products I don’t know about, I would be most grateful to receive your input. While researching the hardware I stumbled upon this article, linked below. It seems to present a real dilemma, but I am not convinced. Please remain skeptical as you read. It appears all of the links direct you to the same source. https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/greatest-debacle-solar-pv-australias-rooftop-dc-isolator-lucas-sadler Thanks again to all of you for helpful advice and expertise. I learned about Sunvolt here, just one of many great suggestions. Sincerely, William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Thu Sep 24 00:03:07 2015 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 22:03:07 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid shutdown causing AFCI TEST FAILURE Message-ID: Greetings! I verified today after replacing an SB6000-12 for a K1 relay open code, that the rapid shutdown circuitry was causing intermittent arc fault test failures. It had done this from day 1 Contact me off list for more information. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Sep 24 08:31:35 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 08:31:35 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop DC disconnects In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "​In this scenario, there is no safe way to replace either of the two Morningstar controllers." The BEST rooftop disconnect remains... a big thick tarp. Not totally practical in an emergency situation, but it is pretty fail safe. Unfortunately for emergency responders, that does not take care of the AC circuits in a microinverter or AC module system, but ideally the building main is shut down anyway, and the risk is the same as any other 240V equipment/appliance circuits. ​Jason Szumlanski On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 4:26 PM, William Miller wrote: > Dear Fellow Wrenches > > > > Below is a design conundrum that may resonate with some of you: > > > > We are finalizing a design for an off-grid residential system. The > customer insist the PV should be on the roof and pre-installed a 1-1/4” PVC > conduit from his roof to a crawl space, in anticipation of a solar > install. This created real problems, because we all know we can’t pull PV > source or output circuits in (or now, on) the envelopes of habitable > buildings. > > > > There was no practical way to replace the PVC. We contrived a method to > sleeve ¾” liquid-tight through the 1-1/4” PVC to the crawl space, > continuing on with EMT. This is the largest metallic conduit we could > fit. The distance was greater than 10 feet so we couldn’t use EMT. Due to > the conduit size restriction, we upgraded to Morningstar 600 volt charge > controllers, allowing us to reduce conductor size. > > > > (As a sidebar, although the Morningstar is listed as a 600 volt charge > controller, we have found no circumstance were we could take advantage of > that high a voltage. With the currently available high wattage modules, by > the time we added enough in series to get to 600 volts, we were well beyond > the wattage capabilities of the controller. For sake of design > considerations, I suggest one regard these units as ~300 volt charge > controllers.) > > > > We now have plans for 300 volt PV feeders running down an interior wall > and under the house, with no roof-top disconnecting means. It is my > understanding none are required. I am not comfortable with this. > ​​ > In this scenario, there is no safe way to replace either of the two > Morningstar controllers. Should someone drill through or damage the EMT in > the wall or under the floor, there would be no way to turn off the feeder. > > > > I don’t like putting HU361RBs on a roof. They must remain vertical and so > they stick up too high and are hard to provide mounting for. Sola-deck > units are another option, but they require integrating with shingles, not > practical on this job or many others. I finally settled on a DC-Sunvolt > PV-X16A-4X-RG disconnect as a possible solution. At $216 it is not out of > range. The unit will provide means to turn off the feeders for service. I > will report back on my impressions of the unit. > > > > To distill this scenario, I don’t believe the code requires a disconnect, > but I feel morally obligated to install one. I’d be interested in > verification of the code interpretation and others response to similar > situations. > > > > I found no other options for rooftop disconnecting means that would be > small, reasonably priced and not present a high profile. If there are > products I don’t know about, I would be most grateful to receive your input. > > > > While researching the hardware I stumbled upon this article, linked > below. It seems to present a real dilemma, but I am not convinced. Please > remain skeptical as you read. It appears all of the links direct you to > the same source. > > > > > https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/greatest-debacle-solar-pv-australias-rooftop-dc-isolator-lucas-sadler > > > > Thanks again to all of you for helpful advice and expertise. I learned > about Sunvolt here, just one of many great suggestions. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > William Miller > > > > > > [image: Gradient Cap_mini] > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Thu Sep 24 12:12:53 2015 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 10:12:53 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop DC disconnects In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2AA49407-0403-44CE-9BE0-F785B4A4BABA@solarenergy.org> I disagree about tarps. We've tested fully covered arrays (and small ones at that) and still had what would be considered lethal levels of current and voltage, even when using heavy, reflective tarps. And it can be very difficult to ensure they stay in place, plus it's impractical for larger arrays. Brian > On Sep 24, 2015, at 6:31 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > "​In this scenario, there is no safe way to replace either of the two Morningstar controllers." > > The BEST rooftop disconnect remains... a big thick tarp. Not totally practical in an emergency situation, but it is pretty fail safe. > > Unfortunately for emergency responders, that does not take care of the AC circuits in a microinverter or AC module system, but ideally the building main is shut down anyway, and the risk is the same as any other 240V equipment/appliance circuits. > > ​Jason Szumlanski > > > >> On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 4:26 PM, William Miller wrote: >> Dear Fellow Wrenches >> >> >> >> Below is a design conundrum that may resonate with some of you: >> >> >> >> We are finalizing a design for an off-grid residential system. The customer insist the PV should be on the roof and pre-installed a 1-1/4” PVC conduit from his roof to a crawl space, in anticipation of a solar install. This created real problems, because we all know we can’t pull PV source or output circuits in (or now, on) the envelopes of habitable buildings. >> >> >> >> There was no practical way to replace the PVC. We contrived a method to sleeve ¾” liquid-tight through the 1-1/4” PVC to the crawl space, continuing on with EMT. This is the largest metallic conduit we could fit. The distance was greater than 10 feet so we couldn’t use EMT. Due to the conduit size restriction, we upgraded to Morningstar 600 volt charge controllers, allowing us to reduce conductor size. >> >> >> >> (As a sidebar, although the Morningstar is listed as a 600 volt charge controller, we have found no circumstance were we could take advantage of that high a voltage. With the currently available high wattage modules, by the time we added enough in series to get to 600 volts, we were well beyond the wattage capabilities of the controller. For sake of design considerations, I suggest one regard these units as ~300 volt charge controllers.) >> >> >> >> We now have plans for 300 volt PV feeders running down an interior wall and under the house, with no roof-top disconnecting means. It is my understanding none are required. I am not comfortable with this. >> >> ​​In this scenario, there is no safe way to replace either of the two Morningstar controllers. Should someone drill through or damage the EMT in the wall or under the floor, there would be no way to turn off the feeder. >> >> >> I don’t like putting HU361RBs on a roof. They must remain vertical and so they stick up too high and are hard to provide mounting for. Sola-deck units are another option, but they require integrating with shingles, not practical on this job or many others. I finally settled on a DC-Sunvolt PV-X16A-4X-RG disconnect as a possible solution. At $216 it is not out of range. The unit will provide means to turn off the feeders for service. I will report back on my impressions of the unit. >> >> >> >> To distill this scenario, I don’t believe the code requires a disconnect, but I feel morally obligated to install one. I’d be interested in verification of the code interpretation and others response to similar situations. >> >> >> >> I found no other options for rooftop disconnecting means that would be small, reasonably priced and not present a high profile. If there are products I don’t know about, I would be most grateful to receive your input. >> >> >> >> While researching the hardware I stumbled upon this article, linked below. It seems to present a real dilemma, but I am not convinced. Please remain skeptical as you read. It appears all of the links direct you to the same source. >> >> >> >> https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/greatest-debacle-solar-pv-australias-rooftop-dc-isolator-lucas-sadler >> >> >> >> Thanks again to all of you for helpful advice and expertise. I learned about Sunvolt here, just one of many great suggestions. >> >> >> >> Sincerely, >> >> >> >> William Miller >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Lic 773985 >> millersolar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Thu Sep 24 12:45:21 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 10:45:21 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop DC disconnects In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87FCA53C-2D7A-4957-B7AB-EAD9812656E1@starlightsolar.com> William and Wrenches, I have pondered situations like this one and wonder the following: If a high voltage DC solenoid were placed at the PV array and the coil was controlled by an arc fault detector along with a means of manually disconnecting, would that not work to satisfy shut down requirements and safety concerns? We have been using 350A, 800 volt solenoids from Gigavac in our lithium battery system on both the positive and negative terminals (controlled by a CPU) to provide 100% disconnect if case of any battery fault. Larry On Sep 23, 2015, at 2:26 PM, William Miller wrote: Dear Fellow Wrenches Below is a design conundrum that may resonate with some of you: We are finalizing a design for an off-grid residential system. The customer insist the PV should be on the roof and pre-installed a 1-1/4” PVC conduit from his roof to a crawl space, in anticipation of a solar install. This created real problems, because we all know we can’t pull PV source or output circuits in (or now, on) the envelopes of habitable buildings. There was no practical way to replace the PVC. We contrived a method to sleeve ¾” liquid-tight through the 1-1/4” PVC to the crawl space, continuing on with EMT. This is the largest metallic conduit we could fit. The distance was greater than 10 feet so we couldn’t use EMT. Due to the conduit size restriction, we upgraded to Morningstar 600 volt charge controllers, allowing us to reduce conductor size. (As a sidebar, although the Morningstar is listed as a 600 volt charge controller, we have found no circumstance were we could take advantage of that high a voltage. With the currently available high wattage modules, by the time we added enough in series to get to 600 volts, we were well beyond the wattage capabilities of the controller. For sake of design considerations, I suggest one regard these units as ~300 volt charge controllers.) We now have plans for 300 volt PV feeders running down an interior wall and under the house, with no roof-top disconnecting means. It is my understanding none are required. I am not comfortable with this. In this scenario, there is no safe way to replace either of the two Morningstar controllers. Should someone drill through or damage the EMT in the wall or under the floor, there would be no way to turn off the feeder. I don’t like putting HU361RBs on a roof. They must remain vertical and so they stick up too high and are hard to provide mounting for. Sola-deck units are another option, but they require integrating with shingles, not practical on this job or many others. I finally settled on a DC-Sunvolt PV-X16A-4X-RG disconnect as a possible solution. At $216 it is not out of range. The unit will provide means to turn off the feeders for service. I will report back on my impressions of the unit. To distill this scenario, I don’t believe the code requires a disconnect, but I feel morally obligated to install one. I’d be interested in verification of the code interpretation and others response to similar situations. I found no other options for rooftop disconnecting means that would be small, reasonably priced and not present a high profile. If there are products I don’t know about, I would be most grateful to receive your input. While researching the hardware I stumbled upon this article, linked below. It seems to present a real dilemma, but I am not convinced. Please remain skeptical as you read. It appears all of the links direct you to the same source. https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/greatest-debacle-solar-pv-australias-rooftop-dc-isolator-lucas-sadler Thanks again to all of you for helpful advice and expertise. I learned about Sunvolt here, just one of many great suggestions. Sincerely, William Miller Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Sep 24 13:03:38 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 11:03:38 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop DC disconnects In-Reply-To: <87FCA53C-2D7A-4957-B7AB-EAD9812656E1@starlightsolar.com> References: <87FCA53C-2D7A-4957-B7AB-EAD9812656E1@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <56042CEA.7070004@solarray.com> The other option is Midnite Solar's remote controlled breakers or=20 combiner boxes. They make up to a 250 amp breaker, but I found on large=20 battery systems that we need some thing larger. Colorado is now=20 requiring Rapid Disconnect for the batteries as well, which is NOT the=20 original intent of that article. Is the Gigavac UL listed? R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 9/24/2015 10:45 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > William and Wrenches, > > I have pondered situations like this one and wonder the following: If=20 > a high voltage DC solenoid were placed at the PV array and the coil=20 > was controlled by an arc fault detector along with a means of manually=20 > disconnecting, would that not work to satisfy shut down requirements=20 > and safety concerns? > > We have been using 350A, 800 volt solenoids from Gigavac in our=20 > lithium battery system on both the positive and negative terminals=20 > (controlled by a CPU) to provide 100% disconnect if case of any=20 > battery fault. > > Larry > > > > On Sep 23, 2015, at 2:26 PM, William Miller > wrote: > > Dear Fellow Wrenches > > Below is a design conundrum that may resonate with some of you: > > We are finalizing a design for an off-grid residential system. The=20 > customer insist the PV should be on the roof and pre-installed a=20 > 1-1/4=E2=80=9D PVC conduit from his roof to a crawl space, in anticipatio= n of=20 > a solar install. This created real problems, because we all know we=20 > can=E2=80=99t pull PV source or output circuits in (or now, on) the enve= lopes=20 > of habitable buildings. > > There was no practical way to replace the PVC. We contrived a method=20 > to sleeve =C2=BE=E2=80=9D liquid-tight through the 1-1/4=E2=80=9D PVC to = the crawl space,=20 > continuing on with EMT. This is the largest metallic conduit we could=20 > fit. The distance was greater than 10 feet so we couldn=E2=80=99t use EM= T. =20 > Due to the conduit size restriction, we upgraded to Morningstar 600=20 > volt charge controllers, allowing us to reduce conductor size. > > (As a sidebar, although the Morningstar is listed as a 600 volt charge=20 > controller, we have found no circumstance were we could take advantage=20 > of that high a voltage. With the currently available high wattage=20 > modules, by the time we added enough in series to get to 600 volts, we=20 > were well beyond the wattage capabilities of the controller. For sake=20 > of design considerations, I suggest one regard these units as ~300=20 > volt charge controllers.) > > We now have plans for 300 volt PV feeders running down an interior=20 > wall and under the house, with no roof-top disconnecting means. It is=20 > my understanding none are required. I am not comfortable with this. =20 > In this scenario, there is no safe way to replace either of the two=20 > Morningstar controllers. Should someone drill through or damage the=20 > EMT in the wall or under the floor, there would be no way to turn off=20 > the feeder. > > I don=E2=80=99t like putting HU361RBs on a roof. They must remain vertica= l and=20 > so they stick up too high and are hard to provide mounting for.=20 > Sola-deck units are another option, but they require integrating with=20 > shingles, not practical on this job or many others. I finally settled=20 > on a DC-Sunvolt PV-X16A-4X-RG disconnect as a possible solution. At=20 > $216 it is not out of range. The unit will provide means to turn off=20 > the feeders for service. I will report back on my impressions of the=20 > unit. > > To distill this scenario, I don=E2=80=99t believe the code requires a=20 > disconnect, but I feel morally obligated to install one. I=E2=80=99d be = > interested in verification of the code interpretation and others=20 > response to similar situations. > > I found no other options for rooftop disconnecting means that would be=20 > small, reasonably priced and not present a high profile. If there are=20 > products I don=E2=80=99t know about, I would be most grateful to receive = your=20 > input. > > While researching the hardware I stumbled upon this article, linked=20 > below. It seems to present a real dilemma, but I am not convinced.=20 > Please remain skeptical as you read. It appears all of the links=20 > direct you to the same source. > > https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/greatest-debacle-solar-pv-australias-rooft= op-dc-isolator-lucas-sadler > > Thanks again to all of you for helpful advice and expertise. I=20 > learned about Sunvolt here, just one of many great suggestions. > > Sincerely, > > William Miller > > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Sep 24 13:05:31 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 10:05:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop DC disconnects In-Reply-To: <2AA49407-0403-44CE-9BE0-F785B4A4BABA@solarenergy.org> References: <2AA49407-0403-44CE-9BE0-F785B4A4BABA@solarenergy.org> Message-ID: <39461E99-4392-4EAB-AF25-0F6AB1C2A5B6@millersolar.com> Brian: I agree 100%. Handling a tarp on a roof is impractical, ineffective and unreliable. Wind and slope are just two factors that increase danger and reduce reliability. William > On Sep 24, 2015, at 9:12 AM, Brian Mehalic wrote: > > I disagree about tarps. We've tested fully covered arrays (and small ones at that) and still had what would be considered lethal levels of current and voltage, even when using heavy, reflective tarps. And it can be very difficult to ensure they stay in place, plus it's impractical for larger arrays. > > Brian > >> On Sep 24, 2015, at 6:31 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >> >> "​In this scenario, there is no safe way to replace either of the two Morningstar controllers." >> >> The BEST rooftop disconnect remains... a big thick tarp. Not totally practical in an emergency situation, but it is pretty fail safe. >> >> Unfortunately for emergency responders, that does not take care of the AC circuits in a microinverter or AC module system, but ideally the building main is shut down anyway, and the risk is the same as any other 240V equipment/appliance circuits. >> >> ​Jason Szumlanski >> >> >> >>> On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 4:26 PM, William Miller wrote: >>> Dear Fellow Wrenches >>> >>> >>> >>> Below is a design conundrum that may resonate with some of you: >>> >>> >>> >>> We are finalizing a design for an off-grid residential system. The customer insist the PV should be on the roof and pre-installed a 1-1/4” PVC conduit from his roof to a crawl space, in anticipation of a solar install. This created real problems, because we all know we can’t pull PV source or output circuits in (or now, on) the envelopes of habitable buildings. >>> >>> >>> >>> There was no practical way to replace the PVC. We contrived a method to sleeve ¾” liquid-tight through the 1-1/4” PVC to the crawl space, continuing on with EMT. This is the largest metallic conduit we could fit. The distance was greater than 10 feet so we couldn’t use EMT. Due to the conduit size restriction, we upgraded to Morningstar 600 volt charge controllers, allowing us to reduce conductor size. >>> >>> >>> >>> (As a sidebar, although the Morningstar is listed as a 600 volt charge controller, we have found no circumstance were we could take advantage of that high a voltage. With the currently available high wattage modules, by the time we added enough in series to get to 600 volts, we were well beyond the wattage capabilities of the controller. For sake of design considerations, I suggest one regard these units as ~300 volt charge controllers.) >>> >>> >>> >>> We now have plans for 300 volt PV feeders running down an interior wall and under the house, with no roof-top disconnecting means. It is my understanding none are required. I am not comfortable with this. >>> >>> ​​In this scenario, there is no safe way to replace either of the two Morningstar controllers. Should someone drill through or damage the EMT in the wall or under the floor, there would be no way to turn off the feeder. >>> >>> >>> I don’t like putting HU361RBs on a roof. They must remain vertical and so they stick up too high and are hard to provide mounting for. Sola-deck units are another option, but they require integrating with shingles, not practical on this job or many others. I finally settled on a DC-Sunvolt PV-X16A-4X-RG disconnect as a possible solution. At $216 it is not out of range. The unit will provide means to turn off the feeders for service. I will report back on my impressions of the unit. >>> >>> >>> >>> To distill this scenario, I don’t believe the code requires a disconnect, but I feel morally obligated to install one. I’d be interested in verification of the code interpretation and others response to similar situations. >>> >>> >>> >>> I found no other options for rooftop disconnecting means that would be small, reasonably priced and not present a high profile. If there are products I don’t know about, I would be most grateful to receive your input. >>> >>> >>> >>> While researching the hardware I stumbled upon this article, linked below. It seems to present a real dilemma, but I am not convinced. Please remain skeptical as you read. It appears all of the links direct you to the same source. >>> >>> >>> >>> https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/greatest-debacle-solar-pv-australias-rooftop-dc-isolator-lucas-sadler >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks again to all of you for helpful advice and expertise. I learned about Sunvolt here, just one of many great suggestions. >>> >>> >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> >>> >>> William Miller >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Lic 773985 >>> millersolar.com >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From LHoffstatter at sunstruckconsulting.com Thu Sep 24 14:19:23 2015 From: LHoffstatter at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 18:19:23 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop DC disconnects In-Reply-To: <39461E99-4392-4EAB-AF25-0F6AB1C2A5B6@millersolar.com> References: <2AA49407-0403-44CE-9BE0-F785B4A4BABA@solarenergy.org> <39461E99-4392-4EAB-AF25-0F6AB1C2A5B6@millersolar.com> Message-ID: Wrenches, UL has done testing on various materials for use as array covers, and lists their results. While perhaps not too practical as a means of shutting down a working system, this can be one of firefighters’ only effective methods when a fire has occurred and has damaged modules until PV pros arrive to disable system (UL tests have also shown destroyed modules still can produce high voltage). Regards, Lloyd Hoffstatter NABCEP PV Installer NY-Sun instructor From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 1:06 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop DC disconnects Brian: I agree 100%. Handling a tarp on a roof is impractical, ineffective and unreliable. Wind and slope are just two factors that increase danger and reduce reliability. William On Sep 24, 2015, at 9:12 AM, Brian Mehalic > wrote: I disagree about tarps. We've tested fully covered arrays (and small ones at that) and still had what would be considered lethal levels of current and voltage, even when using heavy, reflective tarps. And it can be very difficult to ensure they stay in place, plus it's impractical for larger arrays. Brian On Sep 24, 2015, at 6:31 AM, Jason Szumlanski > wrote: "​In this scenario, there is no safe way to replace either of the two Morningstar controllers." The BEST rooftop disconnect remains... a big thick tarp. Not totally practical in an emergency situation, but it is pretty fail safe. Unfortunately for emergency responders, that does not take care of the AC circuits in a microinverter or AC module system, but ideally the building main is shut down anyway, and the risk is the same as any other 240V equipment/appliance circuits. ​Jason Szumlanski On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 4:26 PM, William Miller > wrote: Dear Fellow Wrenches Below is a design conundrum that may resonate with some of you: We are finalizing a design for an off-grid residential system. The customer insist the PV should be on the roof and pre-installed a 1-1/4” PVC conduit from his roof to a crawl space, in anticipation of a solar install. This created real problems, because we all know we can’t pull PV source or output circuits in (or now, on) the envelopes of habitable buildings. There was no practical way to replace the PVC. We contrived a method to sleeve ¾” liquid-tight through the 1-1/4” PVC to the crawl space, continuing on with EMT. This is the largest metallic conduit we could fit. The distance was greater than 10 feet so we couldn’t use EMT. Due to the conduit size restriction, we upgraded to Morningstar 600 volt charge controllers, allowing us to reduce conductor size. (As a sidebar, although the Morningstar is listed as a 600 volt charge controller, we have found no circumstance were we could take advantage of that high a voltage. With the currently available high wattage modules, by the time we added enough in series to get to 600 volts, we were well beyond the wattage capabilities of the controller. For sake of design considerations, I suggest one regard these units as ~300 volt charge controllers.) We now have plans for 300 volt PV feeders running down an interior wall and under the house, with no roof-top disconnecting means. It is my understanding none are required. I am not comfortable with this. ​​ In this scenario, there is no safe way to replace either of the two Morningstar controllers. Should someone drill through or damage the EMT in the wall or under the floor, there would be no way to turn off the feeder. I don’t like putting HU361RBs on a roof. They must remain vertical and so they stick up too high and are hard to provide mounting for. Sola-deck units are another option, but they require integrating with shingles, not practical on this job or many others. I finally settled on a DC-Sunvolt PV-X16A-4X-RG disconnect as a possible solution. At $216 it is not out of range. The unit will provide means to turn off the feeders for service. I will report back on my impressions of the unit. To distill this scenario, I don’t believe the code requires a disconnect, but I feel morally obligated to install one. I’d be interested in verification of the code interpretation and others response to similar situations. I found no other options for rooftop disconnecting means that would be small, reasonably priced and not present a high profile. If there are products I don’t know about, I would be most grateful to receive your input. While researching the hardware I stumbled upon this article, linked below. It seems to present a real dilemma, but I am not convinced. Please remain skeptical as you read. It appears all of the links direct you to the same source. https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/greatest-debacle-solar-pv-australias-rooftop-dc-isolator-lucas-sadler Thanks again to all of you for helpful advice and expertise. I learned about Sunvolt here, just one of many great suggestions. Sincerely, William Miller [Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Thu Sep 24 14:32:27 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 12:32:27 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop DC disconnects In-Reply-To: <56042CEA.7070004@solarray.com> References: <87FCA53C-2D7A-4957-B7AB-EAD9812656E1@starlightsolar.com> <56042CEA.7070004@solarray.com> Message-ID: <3A52AD9A-EBAE-45BA-A293-0AD1F75077E1@starlightsolar.com> Ray, UL508 for sure but look here: http://gigavac.com/catalog/pp/hx.html Larry On Sep 24, 2015, at 11:03 AM, Ray Walters wrote: …. Is the Gigavac UL listed? R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Sep 24 14:25:47 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 14:25:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop DC disconnects In-Reply-To: References: <2AA49407-0403-44CE-9BE0-F785B4A4BABA@solarenergy.org> <39461E99-4392-4EAB-AF25-0F6AB1C2A5B6@millersolar.com> Message-ID: Interesting. I'd like to get a hold of those test results. It is not always practical, but I have never had an issue using opaque black-out type tarps (of course - testing for voltage is a critical safety step). The flimsy blue stuff will definitely not work. At one time I had a sports field cover, but it was too heavy to manage. Then again, we deal with low-slope roofs around here, making roofs easily walk-able. I challenge the assertion that it's ineffective and unreliable. Practical? Judgment call. How effective is a disconnect at de-energizing the conductors between the array and the disconnect itself? There are many module and inverter manufactures that prescribe opaque covers while conducting wiring operations in their manuals. Here are some other resources that point to this same method for "shutting down a PV system" including: Home Power http://www.homepower.com/articles/solar-electricity/equipment-products/pv-safety-and-firefighting Fire Engineering: http://www.fireengineering.com/articles/print/volume-162/issue-5/features/solar-electric-systems-and-firefighter-safety.html On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 2:19 PM, Lloyd Hoffstatter < LHoffstatter at sunstruckconsulting.com> wrote: > Wrenches, > > > > UL has done testing on various materials for use as array covers, and > lists their results. While perhaps not too practical as a means of shutting > down a working system, this can be one of firefighters’ only effective > methods when a fire has occurred and has damaged modules until PV pros > arrive to disable system (UL tests have also shown destroyed modules still > can produce high voltage). > > > > Regards, > > Lloyd Hoffstatter > > NABCEP PV Installer > > NY-Sun instructor > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *William Miller > *Sent:* Thursday, September 24, 2015 1:06 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop DC disconnects > > > > Brian: > > > > I agree 100%. Handling a tarp on a roof is impractical, ineffective and > unreliable. Wind and slope are just two factors that increase danger and > reduce reliability. > > > > William > > > On Sep 24, 2015, at 9:12 AM, Brian Mehalic wrote: > > I disagree about tarps. We've tested fully covered arrays (and small ones > at that) and still had what would be considered lethal levels of current > and voltage, even when using heavy, reflective tarps. And it can be very > difficult to ensure they stay in place, plus it's impractical for larger > arrays. > > Brian > > > On Sep 24, 2015, at 6:31 AM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > "​In this scenario, there is no safe way to replace either of the two > Morningstar controllers." > > > > The BEST rooftop disconnect remains... a big thick tarp. Not totally > practical in an emergency situation, but it is pretty fail safe. > > > > Unfortunately for emergency responders, that does not take care of the AC > circuits in a microinverter or AC module system, but ideally the building > main is shut down anyway, and the risk is the same as any other 240V > equipment/appliance circuits. > > > > ​Jason Szumlanski > > > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 4:26 PM, William Miller > wrote: > > Dear Fellow Wrenches > > > > Below is a design conundrum that may resonate with some of you: > > > > We are finalizing a design for an off-grid residential system. The > customer insist the PV should be on the roof and pre-installed a 1-1/4” PVC > conduit from his roof to a crawl space, in anticipation of a solar > install. This created real problems, because we all know we can’t pull PV > source or output circuits in (or now, on) the envelopes of habitable > buildings. > > > > There was no practical way to replace the PVC. We contrived a method to > sleeve ¾” liquid-tight through the 1-1/4” PVC to the crawl space, > continuing on with EMT. This is the largest metallic conduit we could > fit. The distance was greater than 10 feet so we couldn’t use EMT. Due to > the conduit size restriction, we upgraded to Morningstar 600 volt charge > controllers, allowing us to reduce conductor size. > > > > (As a sidebar, although the Morningstar is listed as a 600 volt charge > controller, we have found no circumstance were we could take advantage of > that high a voltage. With the currently available high wattage modules, by > the time we added enough in series to get to 600 volts, we were well beyond > the wattage capabilities of the controller. For sake of design > considerations, I suggest one regard these units as ~300 volt charge > controllers.) > > > > We now have plans for 300 volt PV feeders running down an interior wall > and under the house, with no roof-top disconnecting means. It is my > understanding none are required. I am not comfortable with this. > > ​​ > > In this scenario, there is no safe way to replace either of the two > Morningstar controllers. Should someone drill through or damage the EMT in > the wall or under the floor, there would be no way to turn off the feeder. > > > > I don’t like putting HU361RBs on a roof. They must remain vertical and so > they stick up too high and are hard to provide mounting for. Sola-deck > units are another option, but they require integrating with shingles, not > practical on this job or many others. I finally settled on a DC-Sunvolt > PV-X16A-4X-RG disconnect as a possible solution. At $216 it is not out of > range. The unit will provide means to turn off the feeders for service. I > will report back on my impressions of the unit. > > > > To distill this scenario, I don’t believe the code requires a disconnect, > but I feel morally obligated to install one. I’d be interested in > verification of the code interpretation and others response to similar > situations. > > > > I found no other options for rooftop disconnecting means that would be > small, reasonably priced and not present a high profile. If there are > products I don’t know about, I would be most grateful to receive your input. > > > > While researching the hardware I stumbled upon this article, linked > below. It seems to present a real dilemma, but I am not convinced. Please > remain skeptical as you read. It appears all of the links direct you to > the same source. > > > > > https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/greatest-debacle-solar-pv-australias-rooftop-dc-isolator-lucas-sadler > > > > Thanks again to all of you for helpful advice and expertise. I learned > about Sunvolt here, just one of many great suggestions. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > William Miller > > > > > > [image: Gradient Cap_mini] > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solareagle at solareagle.com Thu Sep 24 18:13:13 2015 From: solareagle at solareagle.com (RM You) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 15:13:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex TR series inverter Message-ID: <71DB6E9D-4FAF-4BD0-8C0C-76F76166CD41@solareagle.com> Hi guys, I recently took a Xantrex TR series inverter on trade from a customer who is upgrading. According to the inverter spec sheet the inverter is capable of equalizing the batteries but I can’t figure out how. The manual says absolutely nothing about how to invoke equalizing, just shows the equalize voltage. I have not been a big Xantrex fan so have sold very few of their inverters over the years. Can anyone tell me the secret to making this beast go into equalize mode? There is a remote for it but all it does is turn the unit on and off. On the older Trace DR inverters equalize is clearly shown on the Battery Type Selector on the front of the inverter. This unit is a Xantrex TR 2412-120-60 but the same info would apply to 1512 up to the 3624 of the same series. Thanks for any help! Ron Young From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Thu Sep 24 18:08:13 2015 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 18:08:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop DC disconnects In-Reply-To: References: <2AA49407-0403-44CE-9BE0-F785B4A4BABA@solarenergy.org> <39461E99-4392-4EAB-AF25-0F6AB1C2A5B6@millersolar.com> Message-ID: <008101d0f715$83342170$899c6450$@burt@glbcc.com> http://websites.firecompanies.com/njiaai/files/2014/04/PV-FF_SafetyFinalReport.pdf I think this is the report Lloyd referred to. I used it this spring during a firefighter training class I taught. It has a lot of interesting information. -Glenn From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 2:26 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop DC disconnects Interesting. I'd like to get a hold of those test results. It is not always practical, but I have never had an issue using opaque black-out type tarps (of course - testing for voltage is a critical safety step). The flimsy blue stuff will definitely not work. At one time I had a sports field cover, but it was too heavy to manage. Then again, we deal with low-slope roofs around here, making roofs easily walk-able. I challenge the assertion that it's ineffective and unreliable. Practical? Judgment call. How effective is a disconnect at de-energizing the conductors between the array and the disconnect itself? There are many module and inverter manufactures that prescribe opaque covers while conducting wiring operations in their manuals. Here are some other resources that point to this same method for "shutting down a PV system" including: Home Power http://www.homepower.com/articles/solar-electricity/equipment-products/pv-safety-and-firefighting Fire Engineering: http://www.fireengineering.com/articles/print/volume-162/issue-5/features/solar-electric-systems-and-firefighter-safety.html On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 2:19 PM, Lloyd Hoffstatter wrote: Wrenches, UL has done testing on various materials for use as array covers, and lists their results. While perhaps not too practical as a means of shutting down a working system, this can be one of firefighters’ only effective methods when a fire has occurred and has damaged modules until PV pros arrive to disable system (UL tests have also shown destroyed modules still can produce high voltage). Regards, Lloyd Hoffstatter NABCEP PV Installer NY-Sun instructor From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 1:06 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop DC disconnects Brian: I agree 100%. Handling a tarp on a roof is impractical, ineffective and unreliable. Wind and slope are just two factors that increase danger and reduce reliability. William On Sep 24, 2015, at 9:12 AM, Brian Mehalic wrote: I disagree about tarps. We've tested fully covered arrays (and small ones at that) and still had what would be considered lethal levels of current and voltage, even when using heavy, reflective tarps. And it can be very difficult to ensure they stay in place, plus it's impractical for larger arrays. Brian On Sep 24, 2015, at 6:31 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: "​In this scenario, there is no safe way to replace either of the two Morningstar controllers." The BEST rooftop disconnect remains... a big thick tarp. Not totally practical in an emergency situation, but it is pretty fail safe. Unfortunately for emergency responders, that does not take care of the AC circuits in a microinverter or AC module system, but ideally the building main is shut down anyway, and the risk is the same as any other 240V equipment/appliance circuits. ​Jason Szumlanski On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 4:26 PM, William Miller wrote: Dear Fellow Wrenches Below is a design conundrum that may resonate with some of you: We are finalizing a design for an off-grid residential system. The customer insist the PV should be on the roof and pre-installed a 1-1/4” PVC conduit from his roof to a crawl space, in anticipation of a solar install. This created real problems, because we all know we can’t pull PV source or output circuits in (or now, on) the envelopes of habitable buildings. There was no practical way to replace the PVC. We contrived a method to sleeve ¾” liquid-tight through the 1-1/4” PVC to the crawl space, continuing on with EMT. This is the largest metallic conduit we could fit. The distance was greater than 10 feet so we couldn’t use EMT. Due to the conduit size restriction, we upgraded to Morningstar 600 volt charge controllers, allowing us to reduce conductor size. (As a sidebar, although the Morningstar is listed as a 600 volt charge controller, we have found no circumstance were we could take advantage of that high a voltage. With the currently available high wattage modules, by the time we added enough in series to get to 600 volts, we were well beyond the wattage capabilities of the controller. For sake of design considerations, I suggest one regard these units as ~300 volt charge controllers.) We now have plans for 300 volt PV feeders running down an interior wall and under the house, with no roof-top disconnecting means. It is my understanding none are required. I am not comfortable with this. ​​ In this scenario, there is no safe way to replace either of the two Morningstar controllers. Should someone drill through or damage the EMT in the wall or under the floor, there would be no way to turn off the feeder. I don’t like putting HU361RBs on a roof. They must remain vertical and so they stick up too high and are hard to provide mounting for. Sola-deck units are another option, but they require integrating with shingles, not practical on this job or many others. I finally settled on a DC-Sunvolt PV-X16A-4X-RG disconnect as a possible solution. At $216 it is not out of range. The unit will provide means to turn off the feeders for service. I will report back on my impressions of the unit. To distill this scenario, I don’t believe the code requires a disconnect, but I feel morally obligated to install one. I’d be interested in verification of the code interpretation and others response to similar situations. I found no other options for rooftop disconnecting means that would be small, reasonably priced and not present a high profile. If there are products I don’t know about, I would be most grateful to receive your input. While researching the hardware I stumbled upon this article, linked below. It seems to present a real dilemma, but I am not convinced. Please remain skeptical as you read. It appears all of the links direct you to the same source. https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/greatest-debacle-solar-pv-australias-rooftop-dc-isolator-lucas-sadler Thanks again to all of you for helpful advice and expertise. I learned about Sunvolt here, just one of many great suggestions. Sincerely, William Miller Gradient Cap_mini Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Thu Sep 24 18:37:01 2015 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 18:37:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop DC disconnects In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm not sure I understand this issue. The Morningstar 600V comes with a disconnect built in, so everything downstream is isolated. Upstream, in the rare case you need to replace the Morningstar, turn it off, pop out the fuses in the combiner and work away. If you have a single string application, unplug an MC4 connector. On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 8:31 AM, Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > "​In this scenario, there is no safe way to replace either of the two > Morningstar controllers." > > The BEST rooftop disconnect remains... a big thick tarp. Not totally > practical in an emergency situation, but it is pretty fail safe. > > Unfortunately for emergency responders, that does not take care of the AC > circuits in a microinverter or AC module system, but ideally the building > main is shut down anyway, and the risk is the same as any other 240V > equipment/appliance circuits. > > ​Jason Szumlanski > > > > On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 4:26 PM, William Miller > wrote: > >> Dear Fellow Wrenches >> >> >> >> Below is a design conundrum that may resonate with some of you: >> >> >> >> We are finalizing a design for an off-grid residential system. The >> customer insist the PV should be on the roof and pre-installed a 1-1/4” PVC >> conduit from his roof to a crawl space, in anticipation of a solar >> install. This created real problems, because we all know we can’t pull PV >> source or output circuits in (or now, on) the envelopes of habitable >> buildings. >> >> >> >> There was no practical way to replace the PVC. We contrived a method to >> sleeve ¾” liquid-tight through the 1-1/4” PVC to the crawl space, >> continuing on with EMT. This is the largest metallic conduit we could >> fit. The distance was greater than 10 feet so we couldn’t use EMT. Due to >> the conduit size restriction, we upgraded to Morningstar 600 volt charge >> controllers, allowing us to reduce conductor size. >> >> >> >> (As a sidebar, although the Morningstar is listed as a 600 volt charge >> controller, we have found no circumstance were we could take advantage of >> that high a voltage. With the currently available high wattage modules, by >> the time we added enough in series to get to 600 volts, we were well beyond >> the wattage capabilities of the controller. For sake of design >> considerations, I suggest one regard these units as ~300 volt charge >> controllers.) >> >> >> >> We now have plans for 300 volt PV feeders running down an interior wall >> and under the house, with no roof-top disconnecting means. It is my >> understanding none are required. I am not comfortable with this. >> ​​ >> In this scenario, there is no safe way to replace either of the two >> Morningstar controllers. Should someone drill through or damage the EMT in >> the wall or under the floor, there would be no way to turn off the feeder. >> >> >> >> I don’t like putting HU361RBs on a roof. They must remain vertical and >> so they stick up too high and are hard to provide mounting for. Sola-deck >> units are another option, but they require integrating with shingles, not >> practical on this job or many others. I finally settled on a DC-Sunvolt >> PV-X16A-4X-RG disconnect as a possible solution. At $216 it is not out of >> range. The unit will provide means to turn off the feeders for service. I >> will report back on my impressions of the unit. >> >> >> >> To distill this scenario, I don’t believe the code requires a disconnect, >> but I feel morally obligated to install one. I’d be interested in >> verification of the code interpretation and others response to similar >> situations. >> >> >> >> I found no other options for rooftop disconnecting means that would be >> small, reasonably priced and not present a high profile. If there are >> products I don’t know about, I would be most grateful to receive your input. >> >> >> >> While researching the hardware I stumbled upon this article, linked >> below. It seems to present a real dilemma, but I am not convinced. Please >> remain skeptical as you read. It appears all of the links direct you to >> the same source. >> >> >> >> >> https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/greatest-debacle-solar-pv-australias-rooftop-dc-isolator-lucas-sadler >> >> >> >> Thanks again to all of you for helpful advice and expertise. I learned >> about Sunvolt here, just one of many great suggestions. >> >> >> >> Sincerely, >> >> >> >> William Miller >> >> >> >> >> >> [image: Gradient Cap_mini] >> Lic 773985 >> millersolar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solareagle at solareagle.com Thu Sep 24 19:01:55 2015 From: solareagle at solareagle.com (RM You) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 16:01:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex TR series inverter In-Reply-To: <71DB6E9D-4FAF-4BD0-8C0C-76F76166CD41@solareagle.com> References: <71DB6E9D-4FAF-4BD0-8C0C-76F76166CD41@solareagle.com> Message-ID: Answered my own question, found the pinhole opening on the front of the inverter to start EQ. Ron > On Sep 24, 2015, at 3:13 PM, RM You wrote: > > Hi guys, I recently took a Xantrex TR series inverter on trade from a customer who is upgrading. According to the inverter spec sheet the inverter is capable of equalizing the batteries but I can’t figure out how. The manual says absolutely nothing about how to invoke equalizing, just shows the equalize voltage. I have not been a big Xantrex fan so have sold very few of their inverters over the years. Can anyone tell me the secret to making this beast go into equalize mode? There is a remote for it but all it does is turn the unit on and off. On the older Trace DR inverters equalize is clearly shown on the Battery Type Selector on the front of the inverter. > > This unit is a Xantrex TR 2412-120-60 but the same info would apply to 1512 up to the 3624 of the same series. Thanks for any help! > > Ron Young > > > From LHoffstatter at sunstruckconsulting.com Thu Sep 24 19:30:33 2015 From: LHoffstatter at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 23:30:33 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop DC disconnects In-Reply-To: <008101d0f715$83342170$899c6450$@burt@glbcc.com> References: <2AA49407-0403-44CE-9BE0-F785B4A4BABA@solarenergy.org> <39461E99-4392-4EAB-AF25-0F6AB1C2A5B6@millersolar.com> <008101d0f715$83342170$899c6450$@burt@glbcc.com> Message-ID: Thanks Glenn, that’s the one – there are also some UL videos showing the tests and the results, sobering yet valuable information. Under the NY-Sun program, we are both training and listening to firefighters in the attempt to provide practical information for working around PV systems and ultimately how to provide safety in the aftermath of an event. As shown in the UL report, 4 or 6 mill black plastic is opaque enough to provide voltage reduction to safe levels when fully covering the array. For fire companies that already carry clear plastic and clamps to cover venting skylights, the switch to black is a simple and inexpensive example of same. Best regards, Lloyd Hoffstatter From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 6:08 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop DC disconnects http://websites.firecompanies.com/njiaai/files/2014/04/PV-FF_SafetyFinalReport.pdf I think this is the report Lloyd referred to. I used it this spring during a firefighter training class I taught. It has a lot of interesting information. -Glenn From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 2:26 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop DC disconnects Interesting. I'd like to get a hold of those test results. It is not always practical, but I have never had an issue using opaque black-out type tarps (of course - testing for voltage is a critical safety step). The flimsy blue stuff will definitely not work. At one time I had a sports field cover, but it was too heavy to manage. Then again, we deal with low-slope roofs around here, making roofs easily walk-able. I challenge the assertion that it's ineffective and unreliable. Practical? Judgment call. How effective is a disconnect at de-energizing the conductors between the array and the disconnect itself? There are many module and inverter manufactures that prescribe opaque covers while conducting wiring operations in their manuals. Here are some other resources that point to this same method for "shutting down a PV system" including: Home Power http://www.homepower.com/articles/solar-electricity/equipment-products/pv-safety-and-firefighting Fire Engineering: http://www.fireengineering.com/articles/print/volume-162/issue-5/features/solar-electric-systems-and-firefighter-safety.html On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 2:19 PM, Lloyd Hoffstatter > wrote: Wrenches, UL has done testing on various materials for use as array covers, and lists their results. While perhaps not too practical as a means of shutting down a working system, this can be one of firefighters’ only effective methods when a fire has occurred and has damaged modules until PV pros arrive to disable system (UL tests have also shown destroyed modules still can produce high voltage). Regards, Lloyd Hoffstatter NABCEP PV Installer NY-Sun instructor From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 1:06 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop DC disconnects Brian: I agree 100%. Handling a tarp on a roof is impractical, ineffective and unreliable. Wind and slope are just two factors that increase danger and reduce reliability. William On Sep 24, 2015, at 9:12 AM, Brian Mehalic > wrote: I disagree about tarps. We've tested fully covered arrays (and small ones at that) and still had what would be considered lethal levels of current and voltage, even when using heavy, reflective tarps. And it can be very difficult to ensure they stay in place, plus it's impractical for larger arrays. Brian On Sep 24, 2015, at 6:31 AM, Jason Szumlanski > wrote: "​In this scenario, there is no safe way to replace either of the two Morningstar controllers." The BEST rooftop disconnect remains... a big thick tarp. Not totally practical in an emergency situation, but it is pretty fail safe. Unfortunately for emergency responders, that does not take care of the AC circuits in a microinverter or AC module system, but ideally the building main is shut down anyway, and the risk is the same as any other 240V equipment/appliance circuits. ​Jason Szumlanski On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 4:26 PM, William Miller > wrote: Dear Fellow Wrenches Below is a design conundrum that may resonate with some of you: We are finalizing a design for an off-grid residential system. The customer insist the PV should be on the roof and pre-installed a 1-1/4” PVC conduit from his roof to a crawl space, in anticipation of a solar install. This created real problems, because we all know we can’t pull PV source or output circuits in (or now, on) the envelopes of habitable buildings. There was no practical way to replace the PVC. We contrived a method to sleeve ¾” liquid-tight through the 1-1/4” PVC to the crawl space, continuing on with EMT. This is the largest metallic conduit we could fit. The distance was greater than 10 feet so we couldn’t use EMT. Due to the conduit size restriction, we upgraded to Morningstar 600 volt charge controllers, allowing us to reduce conductor size. (As a sidebar, although the Morningstar is listed as a 600 volt charge controller, we have found no circumstance were we could take advantage of that high a voltage. With the currently available high wattage modules, by the time we added enough in series to get to 600 volts, we were well beyond the wattage capabilities of the controller. For sake of design considerations, I suggest one regard these units as ~300 volt charge controllers.) We now have plans for 300 volt PV feeders running down an interior wall and under the house, with no roof-top disconnecting means. It is my understanding none are required. I am not comfortable with this. ​​ In this scenario, there is no safe way to replace either of the two Morningstar controllers. Should someone drill through or damage the EMT in the wall or under the floor, there would be no way to turn off the feeder. I don’t like putting HU361RBs on a roof. They must remain vertical and so they stick up too high and are hard to provide mounting for. Sola-deck units are another option, but they require integrating with shingles, not practical on this job or many others. I finally settled on a DC-Sunvolt PV-X16A-4X-RG disconnect as a possible solution. At $216 it is not out of range. The unit will provide means to turn off the feeders for service. I will report back on my impressions of the unit. To distill this scenario, I don’t believe the code requires a disconnect, but I feel morally obligated to install one. I’d be interested in verification of the code interpretation and others response to similar situations. I found no other options for rooftop disconnecting means that would be small, reasonably priced and not present a high profile. If there are products I don’t know about, I would be most grateful to receive your input. While researching the hardware I stumbled upon this article, linked below. It seems to present a real dilemma, but I am not convinced. Please remain skeptical as you read. It appears all of the links direct you to the same source. https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/greatest-debacle-solar-pv-australias-rooftop-dc-isolator-lucas-sadler Thanks again to all of you for helpful advice and expertise. I learned about Sunvolt here, just one of many great suggestions. Sincerely, William Miller [Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Thu Sep 24 20:26:42 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 18:26:42 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop DC disconnects In-Reply-To: <56042CEA.7070004@solarray.com> References: <87FCA53C-2D7A-4957-B7AB-EAD9812656E1@starlightsolar.com> <56042CEA.7070004@solarray.com> Message-ID: William, Ray, I asked Midnite about using the Aux circuit for control for ground or arc faults. They said this will (should) be added on the next firmware update. This means if an arc fault is detected, the Classic will shut down AND conductors leaving the array would be de-energized by switching off the HV relay. All automatically. A second relay could be connected to the battery for total system shutdown. Should be easy to build a circuit to re-energize everything after a fault. Wouldn't this automatic method be better than waiting for someone to throw a switch to shut things down? You would have to run the low voltage control wire and perhaps put the relays in an enclosure. A disconnect switch could be in series for manual shutdown. What am I missing? Larry On Sep 24, 2015, at 11:03 AM, Ray Walters > wrote: The other option is Midnite Solar's remote controlled breakers or combiner boxes. They make up to a 250 amp breaker, but I found on large battery systems that we need some thing larger. Colorado is now requiring Rapid Disconnect for the batteries as well, which is NOT the original intent of that article. Is the Gigavac UL listed? R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 9/24/2015 10:45 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > William and Wrenches, > > I have pondered situations like this one and wonder the following: If a high voltage DC solenoid were placed at the PV array and the coil was controlled by an arc fault detector along with a means of manually disconnecting, would that not work to satisfy shut down requirements and safety concerns? > > We have been using 350A, 800 volt solenoids from Gigavac in our lithium battery system on both the positive and negative terminals (controlled by a CPU) to provide 100% disconnect if case of any battery fault. > > Larry > > > > On Sep 23, 2015, at 2:26 PM, William Miller < william at millersolar.com > wrote: > > Dear Fellow Wrenches > > Below is a design conundrum that may resonate with some of you: > > We are finalizing a design for an off-grid residential system. The customer insist the PV should be on the roof and pre-installed a 1-1/4” PVC conduit from his roof to a crawl space, in anticipation of a solar install. This created real problems, because we all know we can’t pull PV source or output circuits in (or now, on) the envelopes of habitable buildings. > > There was no practical way to replace the PVC. We contrived a method to sleeve ¾” liquid-tight through the 1-1/4” PVC to the crawl space, continuing on with EMT. This is the largest metallic conduit we could fit. The distance was greater than 10 feet so we couldn’t use EMT. Due to the conduit size restriction, we upgraded to Morningstar 600 volt charge controllers, allowing us to reduce conductor size. > > (As a sidebar, although the Morningstar is listed as a 600 volt charge controller, we have found no circumstance were we could take advantage of that high a voltage. With the currently available high wattage modules, by the time we added enough in series to get to 600 volts, we were well beyond the wattage capabilities of the controller. For sake of design considerations, I suggest one regard these units as ~300 volt charge controllers.) > > We now have plans for 300 volt PV feeders running down an interior wall and under the house, with no roof-top disconnecting means. It is my understanding none are required. I am not comfortable with this. In this scenario, there is no safe way to replace either of the two Morningstar controllers. Should someone drill through or damage the EMT in the wall or under the floor, there would be no way to turn off the feeder. > > I don’t like putting HU361RBs on a roof. They must remain vertical and so they stick up too high and are hard to provide mounting for. Sola-deck units are another option, but they require integrating with shingles, not practical on this job or many others. I finally settled on a DC-Sunvolt PV-X16A-4X-RG disconnect as a possible solution. At $216 it is not out of range. The unit will provide means to turn off the feeders for service. I will report back on my impressions of the unit. > > To distill this scenario, I don’t believe the code requires a disconnect, but I feel morally obligated to install one. I’d be interested in verification of the code interpretation and others response to similar situations. > > I found no other options for rooftop disconnecting means that would be small, reasonably priced and not present a high profile. If there are products I don’t know about, I would be most grateful to receive your input. > > While researching the hardware I stumbled upon this article, linked below. It seems to present a real dilemma, but I am not convinced. Please remain skeptical as you read. It appears all of the links direct you to the same source. > > https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/greatest-debacle-solar-pv-australias-rooftop-dc-isolator-lucas-sadler > > Thanks again to all of you for helpful advice and expertise. I learned about Sunvolt here, just one of many great suggestions. > > Sincerely, > > William Miller > > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2015-09-24 at 6.05.32 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 38355 bytes Desc: not available URL: From howie at suncatchervt.com Thu Sep 24 22:30:57 2015 From: howie at suncatchervt.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 22:30:57 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pika inverter Message-ID: Has anyone have any experience or even knowledge of the Pika products? http://www.pika-energy.com/ Looks like a direct competitor to SolarEdge. Is it actually in the field or in production? Thanks,Howie Sent from my phone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ryan.harkins at energycraft.com Thu Sep 24 23:05:43 2015 From: ryan.harkins at energycraft.com (ryan.harkins at energycraft.com) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 22:05:43 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pika inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7B2944D3-5EED-46E9-9E55-413205630A12@energycraft.com> Howie, We've installed some Pika systems, and been impressed with the quality and service. (It is easy to get sales, shipping, engineers on the phone). Relatively new company, but with ties back to southwest windpower days. I'm guessing you found them when looking at possible Tesla or other GTWB options. Haven't used their newest "islanding" inverter yet. It is pretty awesome how they have designed the Inverter with what they call REBUS. And accepts multiple DC inputs. So we've got DC from their turbine, and you can add 8 60cell PV modules all to one inverter. The PV does still have MPPT via their Pv link, which then lands on the rebus DC inputs of the inverter. Wifi built in is nice too. Not sure if they have any of their new islanding inverters in the field yet or not. Ryan Harkins > On Sep 24, 2015, at 9:30 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: > > Has anyone have any experience or even knowledge of the Pika products? > > http://www.pika-energy.com/ > > Looks like a direct competitor to SolarEdge. Is it actually in the field or in production? > > Thanks, > Howie > > > Sent from my phone > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Sep 25 02:39:06 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 23:39:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop DC disconnects Message-ID: <769d30015300edc1466aed05869b396d@mail.gmail.com> Chris: Technically, yes, yes and yes. The devil is in the details, however, and the process is not as easy as you have described it: This job has no combiners and if it did, the combiner wouldn’t be on the roof. I don’t know of a good rooftop combiner (other than Soladeck, see below). Here are the deviling details. 1. We try to secure PV wiring very carefully under our arrays. This is to prevent squirrels looking for food, rakes looking to clear leaves and kids with scrap pipe looking to retrieve Frisbees from engaging in the leads. (See: http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/practices/PV_wiring/_PV_Wiring2.html) 2. As such, we can’t just reach under a rack and blindly snag an MC connector and pop it loose. They are not just swinging in the breeze, by design. Accessing them requires removing at least one module for each string, and knowing how many strings and how they are wired. 3. We can’t expect fire fighters to fish around under our arrays in the smoke and confusion in futile hopes of finding the correct MC connectors to de-energize all strings. 4. Similarly, we can’t expect the plumber, after accidentally drilling through the PV conduit, to know how to do this while the conduit is arcing and sparking and threatening to burn the house down. I know some of these scenarios are fairly unlikely, but as professionals, we need to plan for the unexpected. I believe a well-marked and conveniently located switch will be the best option, even if that location is on the roof. If I were looking for a PV disconnect, I’d look near the PV. Particularly if the engraved plaque indicated as much. Sincerely, William Miller PS: The DC Sunvolt switch arrived today. It looks solid and we will install it tomorrow on this roof-mounted off grid system tomorrow. Wm PPS: This discussion branches out in several directions: 1. The job we are on is a residential, roof mounted off-grid. Normally we would have 4 to 8 strings of three into Outback controllers and require combiners. Mounting a combiner on the roof is not an option. All models I am aware of would stick up an spoil the aesthetics of this modest but high-end, ocean view home. 2. Because we had conduit limitations (see below), we opted for the Morningstar high voltage controller. With grounded arrays, this limited the disconnect to for two strings to two poles, making it affordable. 3. Transformerless inverters are here to stay, but they will require double the poles of disconnection. Two poles (one string) = $216.00. Four poles (2 strings) = $441.00. Wm PPPS: Here’s why we couldn’t use Soladeck on this job: Soladeck might have worked here but the roofing is ultra-thick, presidential comp, difficult to weave a Soladeck into. Also some idiot preinstalled PVC conduit and we must have metallic. Conduit installed is very difficult to install a Soladeck to as a remodel. The male adapter needs to be flush with the decking, easy enough during rough-in, but after the roof is on, it is very difficult to get to the conduit under the decking to cut in a male adapter Summary: Easier said than done. Wm [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] *On Behalf Of *Chris Mason *Sent:* Thursday, September 24, 2015 3:37 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop DC disconnects I'm not sure I understand this issue. The Morningstar 600V comes with a disconnect built in, so everything downstream is isolated. Upstream, in the rare case you need to replace the Morningstar, turn it off, pop out the fuses in the combiner and work away. If you have a single string application, unplug an MC4 connector. On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 8:31 AM, Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: "​In this scenario, there is no safe way to replace either of the two Morningstar controllers." The BEST rooftop disconnect remains... a big thick tarp. Not totally practical in an emergency situation, but it is pretty fail safe. Unfortunately for emergency responders, that does not take care of the AC circuits in a microinverter or AC module system, but ideally the building main is shut down anyway, and the risk is the same as any other 240V equipment/appliance circuits. ​Jason Szumlanski On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 4:26 PM, William Miller wrote: Dear Fellow Wrenches Below is a design conundrum that may resonate with some of you: We are finalizing a design for an off-grid residential system. The customer insist the PV should be on the roof and pre-installed a 1-1/4” PVC conduit from his roof to a crawl space, in anticipation of a solar install. This created real problems, because we all know we can’t pull PV source or output circuits in (or now, on) the envelopes of habitable buildings. There was no practical way to replace the PVC. We contrived a method to sleeve ¾” liquid-tight through the 1-1/4” PVC to the crawl space, continuing on with EMT. This is the largest metallic conduit we could fit. The distance was greater than 10 feet so we couldn’t use EMT. Due to the conduit size restriction, we upgraded to Morningstar 600 volt charge controllers, allowing us to reduce conductor size. (As a sidebar, although the Morningstar is listed as a 600 volt charge controller, we have found no circumstance were we could take advantage of that high a voltage. With the currently available high wattage modules, by the time we added enough in series to get to 600 volts, we were well beyond the wattage capabilities of the controller. For sake of design considerations, I suggest one regard these units as ~300 volt charge controllers.) We now have plans for 300 volt PV feeders running down an interior wall and under the house, with no roof-top disconnecting means. It is my understanding none are required. I am not comfortable with this. ​​ In this scenario, there is no safe way to replace either of the two Morningstar controllers. Should someone drill through or damage the EMT in the wall or under the floor, there would be no way to turn off the feeder. I don’t like putting HU361RBs on a roof. They must remain vertical and so they stick up too high and are hard to provide mounting for. Sola-deck units are another option, but they require integrating with shingles, not practical on this job or many others. I finally settled on a DC-Sunvolt PV-X16A-4X-RG disconnect as a possible solution. At $216 it is not out of range. The unit will provide means to turn off the feeders for service. I will report back on my impressions of the unit. To distill this scenario, I don’t believe the code requires a disconnect, but I feel morally obligated to install one. I’d be interested in verification of the code interpretation and others response to similar situations. I found no other options for rooftop disconnecting means that would be small, reasonably priced and not present a high profile. If there are products I don’t know about, I would be most grateful to receive your input. While researching the hardware I stumbled upon this article, linked below. It seems to present a real dilemma, but I am not convinced. Please remain skeptical as you read. It appears all of the links direct you to the same source. https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/greatest-debacle-solar-pv-australias-rooftop-dc-isolator-lucas-sadler Thanks again to all of you for helpful advice and expertise. I learned about Sunvolt here, just one of many great suggestions. Sincerely, William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gary at arp-solar.com Fri Sep 25 09:10:32 2015 From: gary at arp-solar.com (gary easton) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 09:10:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] large array on 200 amp service Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, What are folks doing when installing 100A plus of solar into a 200A service? -- Gary Easton Appalachian Renewable Power Stewart, Ohio 45778 NABCEP Certified Solar PV T: 740-277-8498 www.arp-solar.com “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.” ~Ghandi -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Gary at IcarusSolarServices.com Thu Sep 24 22:51:17 2015 From: Gary at IcarusSolarServices.com (Gary Willett) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 21:51:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop DC disconnects In-Reply-To: References: <87FCA53C-2D7A-4957-B7AB-EAD9812656E1@starlightsolar.com> <56042CEA.7070004@solarray.com> Message-ID: <5604B6A5.1010301@IcarusSolarServices.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 38355 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Sep 25 10:14:22 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 10:14:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] large array on 200 amp service In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Supply side interconnection is the only option, usually tapping service conductors in main panel between meter and existing main. Without other complexities present, it's pretty straightforward. We're running into a lot of meter/main combos that don't have conductors that can be tapped (copper bus bars between meter socket and main breaker. That has required changes of service equipment, which can be pricey. One thing that you should consider... Just because the service is 200A, it doesn't mean the utility transformer can handle the backfeed from a very large PV array, especially if a neighbor on the same transformer has a PV system. In one extreme case we had a single 25kW pole-mounted utility transformer feeding SIX tenant meters at a single property ranging from 100A to 200A! We wanted to install a PV system larger than 25kW (about 105A rating), and the utility blocked the project, denying the request to upgrade the transformer, even at the customer's expense. It was a bit more complicated than that, but bottom line it was a pure political/principle stance. If we had the legal department the utility does, we probably would have fought it. It's a lesson to check the utility transformer serving the property, not just the service rating. On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 9:10 AM, gary easton wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > What are folks doing when installing 100A plus of solar into a 200A > service? > > -- > Gary Easton > Appalachian Renewable Power > Stewart, Ohio 45778 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > > T: 740-277-8498 > www.arp-solar.com > > “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then > you win.” > ~Ghandi > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri Sep 25 10:42:18 2015 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 10:42:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] large array on 200 amp service In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20150925144224.6C3CA106C9@che.dreamhost.com> 705.12(A) NEC 2014 Supply side connection Sincerely, Glenn Burt Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. -----Original Message----- From: "gary easton" Sent: ‎9/‎25/‎2015 9:10 To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: [RE-wrenches] large array on 200 amp service Hello Wrenches, What are folks doing when installing 100A plus of solar into a 200A service? -- Gary Easton Appalachian Renewable Power Stewart, Ohio 45778 NABCEP Certified Solar PV T: 740-277-8498 www.arp-solar.com “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.” ~Ghandi -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gary at arp-solar.com Fri Sep 25 11:09:07 2015 From: gary at arp-solar.com (gary easton) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 11:09:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] large array on 200 amp service In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Jason That's what we do as well so is the supply connection limited only by the utility and the rating of the conductors feeding the service? On Friday, September 25, 2015, Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Supply side interconnection is the only option, usually tapping service > conductors in main panel between meter and existing main. Without other > complexities present, it's pretty straightforward. We're running into a lot > of meter/main combos that don't have conductors that can be tapped (copper > bus bars between meter socket and main breaker. That has required changes > of service equipment, which can be pricey. > > One thing that you should consider... Just because the service is 200A, it > doesn't mean the utility transformer can handle the backfeed from a very > large PV array, especially if a neighbor on the same transformer has a PV > system. In one extreme case we had a single 25kW pole-mounted utility > transformer feeding SIX tenant meters at a single property ranging from > 100A to 200A! We wanted to install a PV system larger than 25kW (about 105A > rating), and the utility blocked the project, denying the request to > upgrade the transformer, even at the customer's expense. It was a bit more > complicated than that, but bottom line it was a pure political/principle > stance. If we had the legal department the utility does, we probably would > have fought it. > > It's a lesson to check the utility transformer serving the property, not > just the service rating. > > > > On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 9:10 AM, gary easton > wrote: > >> Hello Wrenches, >> What are folks doing when installing 100A plus of solar into a 200A >> service? >> >> -- >> Gary Easton >> Appalachian Renewable Power >> Stewart, Ohio 45778 >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV >> >> T: 740-277-8498 >> www.arp-solar.com >> >> “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then >> you win.” >> ~Ghandi >> >> -- Sent from Gmail Mobile -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter.parrish at calsolareng.com Fri Sep 25 11:15:33 2015 From: peter.parrish at calsolareng.com (Peter Parrish) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 08:15:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] large array on 200 amp service In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <027401d0f7a5$07697280$163c5780$@parrish@calsolareng.com> One way, if you want the feed to be on the customer’s side of the meter, is to install a new service panel with meter jaws that are designed to be “double lugged”. That is the two lugs on the customer side have accommodation for a solar backfeed. There are rules about the OCP and disconnect, but the entire arrangement is code compliant. Not every manu sells these panels, and off the top of my head I can’t remember the one we used many years ago. I’ll find out the make and model if you want. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 petertor at pobox.com NABCEP Certified PV Professional #031806-26 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of gary easton Sent: Friday, September 25, 2015 6:11 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] large array on 200 amp service Hello Wrenches, What are folks doing when installing 100A plus of solar into a 200A service? -- Gary Easton Appalachian Renewable Power Stewart, Ohio 45778 NABCEP Certified Solar PV T: 740-277-8498 www.arp-solar.com “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.” ~Ghandi -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Fri Sep 25 12:18:43 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 10:18:43 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop DC disconnects In-Reply-To: <5604B6A5.1010301@IcarusSolarServices.com> References: <87FCA53C-2D7A-4957-B7AB-EAD9812656E1@starlightsolar.com> <56042CEA.7070004@solarray.com> <5604B6A5.1010301@IcarusSolarServices.com> Message-ID: Hi Gary, That is exactly what I am considering. Because of the inconvenience of reset and lack of automatic shutdown, I suggest the use of solenoids with the Classic Aux control so the system will shut down the instant arc fault is detected. It is easily reset from the battery location or anywhere you wire the reset circuit. By supplying the coil voltage until the controller takes over, the entire power system will restart; no trip to the roof. I built a reset control using a simple wireless relay with a key fob remote to perform the reset. Cost about $20. The Birdhouse requires human action, my idea does not but can be still be activated by a person. Of course the Birdhouse offers many other shutdown features for grid tie. But for a typical off grid installation, shutting down the PV array and battery means all power is off at the source. If there is a reason this will not work, I would like to know it. For a couple hundred dollars, it seems like a cost effective and desirable approach. Larry On Sep 24, 2015, at 8:51 PM, Gary Willett wrote: Larry: The MidNite Solar 250A breakers used for battery bank disconnect, and the breakers in the "Bird House" controlled roof-top mounted disconnecting combiners, use a "shunt-trip" mechanism inside the circuit breaker. This requires a manual reset to restore the disconnected circuits. This can be inconvenient if the enclosure housing the shunt-trip breaker is not easily accessible (i.e. on a two story house with a 6:12 roof pitch. Something to consider. Regards, Gary Willett PE Icarus Engineering On 9/24/15 7:26 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > William, Ray, > > I asked Midnite about using the Aux circuit for control for ground or arc faults. They said this will (should) be added on the next firmware update. This means if an arc fault is detected, the Classic will shut down AND conductors leaving the array would be de-energized by switching off the HV relay. All automatically. A second relay could be connected to the battery for total system shutdown. Should be easy to build a circuit to re-energize everything after a fault. > > Wouldn't this automatic method be better than waiting for someone to throw a switch to shut things down? You would have to run the low voltage control wire and perhaps put the relays in an enclosure. A disconnect switch could be in series for manual shutdown. What am I missing? > > Larry > > > > On Sep 24, 2015, at 11:03 AM, Ray Walters < ray at solarray.com > wrote: > > The other option is Midnite Solar's remote controlled breakers or combiner boxes. They make up to a 250 amp breaker, but I found on large battery systems that we need some thing larger. Colorado is now requiring Rapid Disconnect for the batteries as well, which is NOT the original intent of that article. Is the Gigavac UL listed? > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > On 9/24/2015 10:45 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: >> William and Wrenches, >> >> I have pondered situations like this one and wonder the following: If a high voltage DC solenoid were placed at the PV array and the coil was controlled by an arc fault detector along with a means of manually disconnecting, would that not work to satisfy shut down requirements and safety concerns? >> >> We have been using 350A, 800 volt solenoids from Gigavac in our lithium battery system on both the positive and negative terminals (controlled by a CPU) to provide 100% disconnect if case of any battery fault. >> >> Larry >> >> >> >> On Sep 23, 2015, at 2:26 PM, William Miller > wrote: >> >> Dear Fellow Wrenches >> >> Below is a design conundrum that may resonate with some of you: >> >> We are finalizing a design for an off-grid residential system. The customer insist the PV should be on the roof and pre-installed a 1-1/4” PVC conduit from his roof to a crawl space, in anticipation of a solar install. This created real problems, because we all know we can’t pull PV source or output circuits in (or now, on) the envelopes of habitable buildings. >> >> There was no practical way to replace the PVC. We contrived a method to sleeve ¾” liquid-tight through the 1-1/4” PVC to the crawl space, continuing on with EMT. This is the largest metallic conduit we could fit. The distance was greater than 10 feet so we couldn’t use EMT. Due to the conduit size restriction, we upgraded to Morningstar 600 volt charge controllers, allowing us to reduce conductor size. >> >> (As a sidebar, although the Morningstar is listed as a 600 volt charge controller, we have found no circumstance were we could take advantage of that high a voltage. With the currently available high wattage modules, by the time we added enough in series to get to 600 volts, we were well beyond the wattage capabilities of the controller. For sake of design considerations, I suggest one regard these units as ~300 volt charge controllers.) >> >> We now have plans for 300 volt PV feeders running down an interior wall and under the house, with no roof-top disconnecting means. It is my understanding none are required. I am not comfortable with this. In this scenario, there is no safe way to replace either of the two Morningstar controllers. Should someone drill through or damage the EMT in the wall or under the floor, there would be no way to turn off the feeder. >> >> I don’t like putting HU361RBs on a roof. They must remain vertical and so they stick up too high and are hard to provide mounting for. Sola-deck units are another option, but they require integrating with shingles, not practical on this job or many others. I finally settled on a DC-Sunvolt PV-X16A-4X-RG disconnect as a possible solution. At $216 it is not out of range. The unit will provide means to turn off the feeders for service. I will report back on my impressions of the unit. >> >> To distill this scenario, I don’t believe the code requires a disconnect, but I feel morally obligated to install one. I’d be interested in verification of the code interpretation and others response to similar situations. >> >> I found no other options for rooftop disconnecting means that would be small, reasonably priced and not present a high profile. If there are products I don’t know about, I would be most grateful to receive your input. >> >> While researching the hardware I stumbled upon this article, linked below. It seems to present a real dilemma, but I am not convinced. Please remain skeptical as you read. It appears all of the links direct you to the same source. >> >> https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/greatest-debacle-solar-pv-australias-rooftop-dc-isolator-lucas-sadler >> >> Thanks again to all of you for helpful advice and expertise. I learned about Sunvolt here, just one of many great suggestions. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> William Miller >> >> >> >> Lic 773985 >> millersolar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Sep 25 13:31:13 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 13:31:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] large array on 200 amp service In-Reply-To: <56056590.0237420a.b56ae.ffffb32bSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <56056590.0237420a.b56ae.ffffb32bSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Siemens makes a "Solar Ready" line. Whatever you plan to install, make sure it's on the utility's list of approved devices. And... Don't find out the hard way that your utility does not allow solar backfeed directly to the double-lugs on the load side of the meter socket. It makes no sense whatsoever, but we ran into one utility resisting our doing anything in the meter can, claiming it was their domain until the conductors leave the meter enclosure. The AHJ wasn't prepared to back us up. With a fusible disconnect immediately adjacent to the meter, you would think this is the preferable interconnection method in every case from the utility's perspective! Jason On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 11:15 AM, Peter Parrish < peter.parrish at calsolareng.com> wrote: > One way, if you want the feed to be on the customer’s side of the meter, > is to install a new service panel with meter jaws that are designed to be > “double lugged”. That is the two lugs on the customer side have > accommodation for a solar backfeed. There are rules about the OCP and > disconnect, but the entire arrangement is code compliant. > > > > Not every manu sells these panels, and off the top of my head I can’t > remember the one we used many years ago. I’ll find out the make and model > if you want. > > > > - Peter > > > > Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. > > President, SolarGnosis > > 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. > > Suite 351 > > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > > (323) 839-6108 > > petertor at pobox.com > > NABCEP Certified PV Professional #031806-26 > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *gary easton > *Sent:* Friday, September 25, 2015 6:11 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] large array on 200 amp service > > > > Hello Wrenches, > > What are folks doing when installing 100A plus of solar into a 200A > service? > > > > -- > > Gary Easton > Appalachian Renewable Power > > Stewart, Ohio 45778 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > > T: 740-277-8498 > > www.arp-solar.com > > > “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then > you win.” > > ~Ghandi > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Sep 25 13:21:29 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 13:21:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] large array on 200 amp service In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, assuming the SE conductors are rated for 200A, you can backfeed 200A subject to utility approval. ​Jason On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 11:09 AM, gary easton wrote: > Thanks Jason > That's what we do as well so is the supply connection limited only by the > utility and the rating of the conductors feeding the service? > > > On Friday, September 25, 2015, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> Supply side interconnection is the only option, usually tapping service >> conductors in main panel between meter and existing main. Without other >> complexities present, it's pretty straightforward. We're running into a lot >> of meter/main combos that don't have conductors that can be tapped (copper >> bus bars between meter socket and main breaker. That has required changes >> of service equipment, which can be pricey. >> >> One thing that you should consider... Just because the service is 200A, >> it doesn't mean the utility transformer can handle the backfeed from a very >> large PV array, especially if a neighbor on the same transformer has a PV >> system. In one extreme case we had a single 25kW pole-mounted utility >> transformer feeding SIX tenant meters at a single property ranging from >> 100A to 200A! We wanted to install a PV system larger than 25kW (about 105A >> rating), and the utility blocked the project, denying the request to >> upgrade the transformer, even at the customer's expense. It was a bit more >> complicated than that, but bottom line it was a pure political/principle >> stance. If we had the legal department the utility does, we probably would >> have fought it. >> >> It's a lesson to check the utility transformer serving the property, not >> just the service rating. >> >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 9:10 AM, gary easton wrote: >> >>> Hello Wrenches, >>> What are folks doing when installing 100A plus of solar into a 200A >>> service? >>> >>> -- >>> Gary Easton >>> Appalachian Renewable Power >>> Stewart, Ohio 45778 >>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV >>> >>> T: 740-277-8498 >>> www.arp-solar.com >>> >>> “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. >>> Then you win.” >>> ~Ghandi >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com Fri Sep 25 15:08:27 2015 From: nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com (Nick Soleil) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 12:08:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] large array on 200 amp service In-Reply-To: References: <56056590.0237420a.b56ae.ffffb32bSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: One trick is to install an external meter base, so that you can use the original meter compartment for your supply side connection. You'll also need jumper straps and a cover for the original meter base. Nick Soleil Enphase Energy Cell: 707-321-2937 > On Sep 25, 2015, at 10:31 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > Siemens makes a "Solar Ready" line. Whatever you plan to install, make sure it's on the utility's list of approved devices. And... > > Don't find out the hard way that your utility does not allow solar backfeed directly to the double-lugs on the load side of the meter socket. It makes no sense whatsoever, but we ran into one utility resisting our doing anything in the meter can, claiming it was their domain until the conductors leave the meter enclosure. The AHJ wasn't prepared to back us up. > > With a fusible disconnect immediately adjacent to the meter, you would think this is the preferable interconnection method in every case from the utility's perspective! > > Jason > > >> On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 11:15 AM, Peter Parrish wrote: >> One way, if you want the feed to be on the customer’s side of the meter, is to install a new service panel with meter jaws that are designed to be “double lugged”. That is the two lugs on the customer side have accommodation for a solar backfeed. There are rules about the OCP and disconnect, but the entire arrangement is code compliant. >> >> >> >> Not every manu sells these panels, and off the top of my head I can’t remember the one we used many years ago. I’ll find out the make and model if you want. >> >> >> >> - Peter >> >> >> >> Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. >> >> President, SolarGnosis >> >> 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. >> >> Suite 351 >> >> South Pasadena, CA 91030 >> >> (323) 839-6108 >> >> petertor at pobox.com >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Professional #031806-26 >> >> >> >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of gary easton >> Sent: Friday, September 25, 2015 6:11 AM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] large array on 200 amp service >> >> >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> What are folks doing when installing 100A plus of solar into a 200A service? >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Gary Easton >> Appalachian Renewable Power >> >> Stewart, Ohio 45778 >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV >> T: 740-277-8498 >> >> www.arp-solar.com >> >> >> >> “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.” >> ~Ghandi >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Sep 25 14:50:19 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 08:50:19 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] large array on 200 amp service In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Line side tap with a fusable disconnect or a new service with dual main load breakers. ( used in ag applications) There may be other requirements also depending on AHJ Jerry On Sep 25, 2015 3:11 AM, "gary easton" wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > What are folks doing when installing 100A plus of solar into a 200A > service? > > -- > Gary Easton > Appalachian Renewable Power > Stewart, Ohio 45778 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > > T: 740-277-8498 > www.arp-solar.com > > “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then > you win.” > ~Ghandi > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Fri Sep 25 15:19:39 2015 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 12:19:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] large array on 200 amp service In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Upgrading the main panel to 400 A but keeping the 200 A main breaker is also an option. As always, there are many ways to achieve the code compliant interconnection and typically one will stand out as being the most cost effective while achieving the project goals. Best, August *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jerry Shafer *Sent:* Friday, September 25, 2015 11:50 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] large array on 200 amp service Line side tap with a fusable disconnect or a new service with dual main load breakers. ( used in ag applications) There may be other requirements also depending on AHJ Jerry On Sep 25, 2015 3:11 AM, "gary easton" wrote: Hello Wrenches, What are folks doing when installing 100A plus of solar into a 200A service? -- Gary Easton Appalachian Renewable Power Stewart, Ohio 45778 NABCEP Certified Solar PV T: 740-277-8498 www.arp-solar.com “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.” ~Ghandi _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Sep 25 15:21:33 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 15:21:33 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] large array on 200 amp service In-Reply-To: References: <56056590.0237420a.b56ae.ffffb32bSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Great idea - one given me to a buddy, but we had the same utility reject that, too. Rather than argue with them, that particular customer changed to a new 200A meter/main with conductors we could tap. It wasn't cheap... but it got the job done quickly. On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 3:08 PM, Nick Soleil wrote: > One trick is to install an external meter base, so that you can use the > original meter compartment for your supply side connection. You'll also > need jumper straps and a cover for the original meter base. > > Nick Soleil > Enphase Energy > Cell: 707-321-2937 > > On Sep 25, 2015, at 10:31 AM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > Siemens makes a "Solar Ready" line. Whatever you plan to install, make > sure it's on the utility's list of approved devices. And... > > Don't find out the hard way that your utility does not allow solar > backfeed directly to the double-lugs on the load side of the meter socket. > It makes no sense whatsoever, but we ran into one utility resisting our > doing anything in the meter can, claiming it was their domain until the > conductors leave the meter enclosure. The AHJ wasn't prepared to back us > up. > > With a fusible disconnect immediately adjacent to the meter, you would > think this is the preferable interconnection method in every case from the > utility's perspective! > > Jason > > > On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 11:15 AM, Peter Parrish < > peter.parrish at calsolareng.com> wrote: > >> One way, if you want the feed to be on the customer’s side of the meter, >> is to install a new service panel with meter jaws that are designed to be >> “double lugged”. That is the two lugs on the customer side have >> accommodation for a solar backfeed. There are rules about the OCP and >> disconnect, but the entire arrangement is code compliant. >> >> >> >> Not every manu sells these panels, and off the top of my head I can’t >> remember the one we used many years ago. I’ll find out the make and model >> if you want. >> >> >> >> - Peter >> >> >> >> Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. >> >> President, SolarGnosis >> >> 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. >> >> Suite 351 >> >> South Pasadena, CA 91030 >> >> (323) 839-6108 >> >> petertor at pobox.com >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Professional #031806-26 >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *gary easton >> *Sent:* Friday, September 25, 2015 6:11 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] large array on 200 amp service >> >> >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> What are folks doing when installing 100A plus of solar into a 200A >> service? >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Gary Easton >> Appalachian Renewable Power >> >> Stewart, Ohio 45778 >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV >> >> T: 740-277-8498 >> >> www.arp-solar.com >> >> >> “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then >> you win.” >> >> ~Ghandi >> >> >> > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From howie at suncatchervt.com Sat Sep 26 11:20:45 2015 From: howie at suncatchervt.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 11:20:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop DC disconnects In-Reply-To: References: <87FCA53C-2D7A-4957-B7AB-EAD9812656E1@starlightsolar.com> <56042CEA.7070004@solarray.com> <5604B6A5.1010301@IcarusSolarServices.com> Message-ID: Larry, Could you possibly sketch out a rough schematic for what you are talking about here? It would help me understand your suggestion better. Thanks, Howie Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Catamount Solar Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner http://www.CatamountSolar.com 802-272-0004 On Sep 25, 2015 12:18 PM, "Starlight Solar Power Systems" < larry at starlightsolar.com> wrote: > Hi Gary, > > That is exactly what I am considering. Because of the inconvenience of > reset and lack of automatic shutdown, I suggest the use of solenoids with > the Classic Aux control so the system will shut down the instant arc fault > is detected. It is easily reset from the battery location or anywhere you > wire the reset circuit. By supplying the coil voltage until the controller > takes over, the entire power system will restart; no trip to the roof. I > built a reset control using a simple wireless relay with a key fob remote > to perform the reset. Cost about $20. > > The Birdhouse requires human action, my idea does not but can be still be > activated by a person. Of course the Birdhouse offers many other shutdown > features for grid tie. But for a typical off grid installation, shutting > down the PV array and battery means all power is off at the source. If > there is a reason this will not work, I would like to know it. For a couple > hundred dollars, it seems like a cost effective and desirable approach. > > Larry > > > On Sep 24, 2015, at 8:51 PM, Gary Willett > wrote: > > Larry: > > The MidNite Solar 250A breakers used for battery bank disconnect, and the > breakers in the "Bird House" controlled roof-top mounted disconnecting > combiners, use a "shunt-trip" mechanism inside the circuit breaker. This > requires a manual reset to restore the disconnected circuits. This can be > inconvenient if the enclosure housing the shunt-trip breaker is not easily > accessible (i.e. on a two story house with a 6:12 roof pitch. Something to > consider. > > Regards, > > Gary Willett PE > Icarus Engineering > > > On 9/24/15 7:26 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > > William, Ray, > > I asked Midnite about using the Aux circuit for control for ground or arc > faults. They said this will (should) be added on the next firmware update. > This means if an arc fault is detected, the Classic will shut down AND > conductors leaving the array would be de-energized by switching off the HV > relay. All automatically. A second relay could be connected to the battery > for total system shutdown. Should be easy to build a circuit to re-energize > everything after a fault. > > Wouldn't this automatic method be better than waiting for someone to throw > a switch to shut things down? You would have to run the low voltage control > wire and perhaps put the relays in an enclosure. A disconnect switch could > be in series for manual shutdown. What am I missing? > > Larry > > > > On Sep 24, 2015, at 11:03 AM, Ray Walters < > ray at solarray.com> wrote: > > The other option is Midnite Solar's remote controlled breakers or combiner > boxes. They make up to a 250 amp breaker, but I found on large battery > systems that we need some thing larger. Colorado is now requiring Rapid > Disconnect for the batteries as well, which is NOT the original intent of > that article. Is the Gigavac UL listed? > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 > > On 9/24/2015 10:45 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > > William and Wrenches, > > I have pondered situations like this one and wonder the following: If a > high voltage DC solenoid were placed at the PV array and the coil was > controlled by an arc fault detector along with a means of manually > disconnecting, would that not work to satisfy shut down requirements and > safety concerns? > > We have been using 350A, 800 volt solenoids from Gigavac in our lithium > battery system on both the positive and negative terminals (controlled by a > CPU) to provide 100% disconnect if case of any battery fault. > > Larry > > > > On Sep 23, 2015, at 2:26 PM, William Miller > wrote: > > Dear Fellow Wrenches > > Below is a design conundrum that may resonate with some of you: > > We are finalizing a design for an off-grid residential system. The > customer insist the PV should be on the roof and pre-installed a 1-1/4” PVC > conduit from his roof to a crawl space, in anticipation of a solar > install. This created real problems, because we all know we can’t pull PV > source or output circuits in (or now, on) the envelopes of habitable > buildings. > > There was no practical way to replace the PVC. We contrived a method to > sleeve ¾” liquid-tight through the 1-1/4” PVC to the crawl space, > continuing on with EMT. This is the largest metallic conduit we could > fit. The distance was greater than 10 feet so we couldn’t use EMT. Due to > the conduit size restriction, we upgraded to Morningstar 600 volt charge > controllers, allowing us to reduce conductor size. > > (As a sidebar, although the Morningstar is listed as a 600 volt charge > controller, we have found no circumstance were we could take advantage of > that high a voltage. With the currently available high wattage modules, by > the time we added enough in series to get to 600 volts, we were well beyond > the wattage capabilities of the controller. For sake of design > considerations, I suggest one regard these units as ~300 volt charge > controllers.) > > We now have plans for 300 volt PV feeders running down an interior wall > and under the house, with no roof-top disconnecting means. It is my > understanding none are required. I am not comfortable with this. In this > scenario, there is no safe way to replace either of the two Morningstar > controllers. Should someone drill through or damage the EMT in the wall or > under the floor, there would be no way to turn off the feeder. > > I don’t like putting HU361RBs on a roof. They must remain vertical and so > they stick up too high and are hard to provide mounting for. Sola-deck > units are another option, but they require integrating with shingles, not > practical on this job or many others. I finally settled on a DC-Sunvolt > PV-X16A-4X-RG disconnect as a possible solution. At $216 it is not out of > range. The unit will provide means to turn off the feeders for service. I > will report back on my impressions of the unit. > > To distill this scenario, I don’t believe the code requires a disconnect, > but I feel morally obligated to install one. I’d be interested in > verification of the code interpretation and others response to similar > situations. > > I found no other options for rooftop disconnecting means that would be > small, reasonably priced and not present a high profile. If there are > products I don’t know about, I would be most grateful to receive your input. > > While researching the hardware I stumbled upon this article, linked > below. It seems to present a real dilemma, but I am not convinced. Please > remain skeptical as you read. It appears all of the links direct you to > the same source. > > > https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/greatest-debacle-solar-pv-australias-rooftop-dc-isolator-lucas-sadler > > Thanks again to all of you for helpful advice and expertise. I learned > about Sunvolt here, just one of many great suggestions. > > Sincerely, > > William Miller > > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Sat Sep 26 18:49:42 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 16:49:42 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop DC disconnects In-Reply-To: References: <87FCA53C-2D7A-4957-B7AB-EAD9812656E1@starlightsolar.com> <56042CEA.7070004@solarray.com> <5604B6A5.1010301@IcarusSolarServices.com> Message-ID: <2144B3BC-D692-4C56-BCEB-7EDD92947FC8@starlightsolar.com> Hello Howie, I attached it to my email on 9-24-2015. In brief, a HV relay disconnects the PV array and optional relay disconnects the battery. Midnite plans to add the arc fault Aux feature. Here it is again: I asked Midnite about using the Aux circuit for control for ground or arc faults. They said this will (should) be added on the next firmware update. This means if an arc fault is detected, the Classic will shut down AND conductors leaving the array would be de-energized by switching off the HV relay. All automatically. A second relay could be connected to the battery for total system shutdown. Should be easy to build a circuit to re-energize everything after a fault. Wouldn't this automatic method be better than waiting for someone to throw a switch to shut things down? You would have to run the low voltage control wire and perhaps put the relays in an enclosure. A disconnect switch could be in series for manual shutdown. What am I missing? On Sep 26, 2015, at 9:20 AM, Howie Michaelson wrote: Larry, Could you possibly sketch out a rough schematic for what you are talking about here? It would help me understand your suggestion better. Thanks, Howie Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Catamount Solar Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner http://www.CatamountSolar.com 802-272-0004 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2015-09-24 at 6.05.32 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 38355 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Richard.L.Ratico at valley.net Sat Sep 26 18:27:25 2015 From: Richard.L.Ratico at valley.net (Richard L Ratico) Date: 26 Sep 2015 18:27:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Railless Racking Message-ID: <180992367@retriever.VALLEY.NET> Hi Folks, Would anyone having experience with one of the new railless racking systems care to comment? Dick Ratico Solarwind Electric From allan at sindelarsolar.com Sun Sep 27 13:53:53 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 11:53:53 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop DC disconnects In-Reply-To: <2144B3BC-D692-4C56-BCEB-7EDD92947FC8@starlightsolar.com> References: <87FCA53C-2D7A-4957-B7AB-EAD9812656E1@starlightsolar.com> <56042CEA.7070004@solarray.com> <5604B6A5.1010301@IcarusSolarServices.com> <2144B3BC-D692-4C56-BCEB-7EDD92947FC8@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <56082D31.8070104@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 38355 bytes Desc: not available URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Sun Sep 27 18:47:37 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 16:47:37 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop DC disconnects; Solenoids In-Reply-To: <56082D31.8070104@sindelarsolar.com> References: <87FCA53C-2D7A-4957-B7AB-EAD9812656E1@starlightsolar.com> <56042CEA.7070004@solarray.com> <5604B6A5.1010301@IcarusSolarServices.com> <2144B3BC-D692-4C56-BCEB-7EDD92947FC8@starlightsolar.com> <56082D31.8070104@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Hey Allan, Gigavac has many models. http://gigavac.com/ Made in USA. I’ve installed about 60 of of the GX14 so far, no problems. For batteries, here’s some specs on the MX14, 400 amp version. It will surge for 60 seconds at 1200 amps, 2000 amps for 10 seconds! Coil pickup is 4.3 amps @ 12V for 75ms, then holding current is only 240 milliamp. Might need an intermediate relay. If you do, then you can use 12-48V coil voltage. The 350 amp model shows a UL list: "Hermetically sealed – UL listed: UL1604 for Class I & II, Div 2 and Class III for use in hazardous locations, IP67 for temporary water immersion for 30 min, IP69K for perssure washing, SAE J1171 - external ignition protection, and ISO8846 for protection against ignition around flammable gasses." On Sep 27, 2015, at 11:53 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: Larry, What relay have you found that can handle battery/inverter current levels and would have a DC coil that could run off of the Classic's Aux? Even MDI's mercury contactors only go up to 100A. Thanks, Allan Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell On 9/26/2015 4:49 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > Hello Howie, > > I attached it to my email on 9-24-2015. In brief, a HV relay disconnects the PV array and optional relay disconnects the battery. Midnite plans to add the arc fault Aux feature. Here it is again: > > > I asked Midnite about using the Aux circuit for control for ground or arc faults. They said this will (should) be added on the next firmware update. This means if an arc fault is detected, the Classic will shut down AND conductors leaving the array would be de-energized by switching off the HV relay. All automatically. A second relay could be connected to the battery for total system shutdown. Should be easy to build a circuit to re-energize everything after a fault. > > Wouldn't this automatic method be better than waiting for someone to throw a switch to shut things down? You would have to run the low voltage control wire and perhaps put the relays in an enclosure. A disconnect switch could be in series for manual shutdown. What am I missing? > > > > > > On Sep 26, 2015, at 9:20 AM, Howie Michaelson > wrote: > > Larry, > Could you possibly sketch out a rough schematic for what you are talking about here? It would help me understand your suggestion better. > Thanks, Howie > Howie Michaelson > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > > Catamount Solar > Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service > VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner > http://www.CatamountSolar.com > 802-272-0004 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2015-09-27 at 4.27.15 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 42417 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2015-09-27 at 4.27.05 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 73072 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sun Sep 27 17:19:44 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 17:19:44 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Railless Racking In-Reply-To: <180992367@retriever.VALLEY.NET> References: <180992367@retriever.VALLEY.NET> Message-ID: We stopped our Zep experiment due to serviceability issues. Removing a panel is a huge hassle and many times you have to break/cut things to get it apart due to corrosion. It's not easy to put it back together, either. We had a bunch of Enphase M190's that needed replacements under Zep modules, and it was not fun. If you never have to move a module, perhaps it's a good option. As long as you get the first row gun barrel straight, everything lines up well and goes fast. The low profile makes wire management a bit of a task. If we ever need a Zep framed CSI panel replacement in the future, finding one will undoubtedly be hard. The S-5-PV is great as long as you don't have a lot of Edge Grabs, which are a bit cumbersome to deal with at times. This system does not bond row to row, so you still need PV module grounding lugs on one panel in each row with a bare ground wire. Some of the newer grounding lugs make that task a bit easier, but it's still more difficult than one WEEB-LUG per row on a rail. ​Jason​ Szumlanski On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 6:27 PM, Richard L Ratico < Richard.L.Ratico at valley.net> wrote: > Hi Folks, > > Would anyone having experience with one of the new railless racking > systems care > to comment? > > Dick Ratico > Solarwind Electric > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Steve.Jefferson at sma-america.com Mon Sep 28 11:29:06 2015 From: Steve.Jefferson at sma-america.com (Steve Jefferson) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2015 15:29:06 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid shutdown causing AFCI TEST FAILURE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41FE255D65D554478C3B17F3EB5410EF9145938E@SVR-US-EXMBX-01.sma.de> Morning Wrenches, We have found that using a RSS that is A/C powered more than likely will interfere with the AFCI function of the inverter. SMA recommends using a DC powered RSS. SMA America, LLC Steve Jefferson Service Line Supervisor 3925 Atherton Ave Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714 U.S.A. Tel:  +1 916 625 3185 (direct) Fax: +1 916 625 0871 Mobile: +1 916 622 4253 Email: Steve.jefferson at SMA-America.com www.SMA-America.com   This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Rodriguez Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2015 9:03 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid shutdown causing AFCI TEST FAILURE Greetings! I verified today after replacing an SB6000-12 for a K1 relay open code, that the rapid shutdown circuitry was causing intermittent arc fault test failures. It had done this from day 1 Contact me off list for more information. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From solarj at me.com Mon Sep 28 14:35:35 2015 From: solarj at me.com (Jason Kechijian) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2015 14:35:35 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NFPA 1 and 2012 IFC Pathway/Ventilation Interpretations Message-ID: <79278B03-516E-46DE-A204-1B882A187456@me.com> Hey Wrenches! I currently designing a system on a 1560ft long building — standing seam 10º pitch roof, no vents or skylights — with a 10’ setback around all sides for wind loading. There are 10 flush-mounted arrays that are 149 ft x 55 ft — under 150ft directional requirement. After researching both NFPA 1 and 2012 IFC and the array parameters described, I am a little confused. What is the required spacing between arrays? 4, 6, or 8 ft? The 6’ ft option works best in regards to maximizing the roof. Thanks for the help!! Jason D. Kechijian, LEED AP NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ solarj at me.com (843) 200-7271 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Mon Sep 28 21:18:42 2015 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2015 19:18:42 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flying with Makita batteries in checked or carryon? Message-ID: Esteemed Wrenches I normally drive to jobs with my tools, or UPS ship the tools ahead of time. This upcoming MET tower maintenance job in Nevada is too tight a timeline to drive or ship. I figured some of you have recent experience with this, and the rules seem to change quickly. I have to fly with my impact, driver, 3 batteries and charger. >From the TSA PDF (no date of course): https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ash/ash_programs/hazmat/passenger_info/media/faa_airline_passengers_and_batteries.pdf My batteries are 56 watt-hour lithium ion; I'd rather not have this heavy stuff in my carry-on. What is "protected" for checked bags, the Makita has a sliding sleeve. Does that count? No "spare" batteries allowed in checked bags? I am taking this that I can bring one battery in my checked bag, one in my carryon, and a charger? That would work. Any input appreciated, a long security delay or seized tools would be a big problem. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Mon Sep 28 21:20:49 2015 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jefferson Jarvis) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2015 20:20:49 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flying with Makita batteries in checked or carryon? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Carry your batteries in carry on. Absolutely no issues that way. I do it multiple times per month. -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC This message sent from my cell phone. My apologies for brevity and spelling errors. On Sep 28, 2015 5:18 PM, "Dan Fink" wrote: > Esteemed Wrenches > I normally drive to jobs with my tools, or UPS ship the tools ahead of > time. This upcoming MET tower maintenance job in Nevada is too tight a > timeline to drive or ship. I figured some of you have recent experience > with this, and the rules seem to change quickly. I have to fly with my > impact, driver, 3 batteries and charger. > > From the TSA PDF (no date of course): > > https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ash/ash_programs/hazmat/passenger_info/media/faa_airline_passengers_and_batteries.pdf > > My batteries are 56 watt-hour lithium ion; I'd rather not have this heavy > stuff in my carry-on. What is "protected" for checked bags, the Makita has > a sliding sleeve. Does that count? No "spare" batteries allowed in checked > bags? I am taking this that I can bring one battery in my checked bag, one > in my carryon, and a charger? That would work. > > Any input appreciated, a long security delay or seized tools would be a > big problem. > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Sep 28 22:23:49 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2015 20:23:49 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flying with Makita batteries in checked or carryon? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5609F635.6030601@solarray.com> Flown many times with my tools. Batteries are carry on, and all the rest of the tools need to go in the checked baggage. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 9/28/2015 7:18 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > Esteemed Wrenches > I normally drive to jobs with my tools, or UPS ship the tools ahead of > time. This upcoming MET tower maintenance job in Nevada is too tight a > timeline to drive or ship. I figured some of you have recent > experience with this, and the rules seem to change quickly. I have to > fly with my impact, driver, 3 batteries and charger. > > From the TSA PDF (no date of course): > https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ash/ash_programs/hazmat/passenger_info/media/faa_airline_passengers_and_batteries.pdf > > My batteries are 56 watt-hour lithium ion; I'd rather not have this > heavy stuff in my carry-on. What is "protected" for checked bags, the > Makita has a sliding sleeve. Does that count? No "spare" batteries > allowed in checked bags? I am taking this that I can bring one battery > in my checked bag, one in my carryon, and a charger? That would work. > > Any input appreciated, a long security delay or seized tools would be > a big problem. > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructorâ„¢ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providersâ„¢ > 970.672.4342 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Sep 28 21:37:59 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2015 15:37:59 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flying with Makita batteries in checked or carryon? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches I fly a few times a month, one time they ask about all batteries, I will not carry anything check it all not had any issues. Jerry On Sep 28, 2015 3:18 PM, "Dan Fink" wrote: > Esteemed Wrenches > I normally drive to jobs with my tools, or UPS ship the tools ahead of > time. This upcoming MET tower maintenance job in Nevada is too tight a > timeline to drive or ship. I figured some of you have recent experience > with this, and the rules seem to change quickly. I have to fly with my > impact, driver, 3 batteries and charger. > > From the TSA PDF (no date of course): > > https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ash/ash_programs/hazmat/passenger_info/media/faa_airline_passengers_and_batteries.pdf > > My batteries are 56 watt-hour lithium ion; I'd rather not have this heavy > stuff in my carry-on. What is "protected" for checked bags, the Makita has > a sliding sleeve. Does that count? No "spare" batteries allowed in checked > bags? I am taking this that I can bring one battery in my checked bag, one > in my carryon, and a charger? That would work. > > Any input appreciated, a long security delay or seized tools would be a > big problem. > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ryan.harkins at energycraft.com Tue Sep 29 10:39:34 2015 From: ryan.harkins at energycraft.com (Synergy Renewable Systems) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 09:39:34 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flying with Makita batteries in checked or carryon? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6BF7B7D9-7CF6-498E-84AF-C66D9942E98D@energycraft.com> I've checked tools, hardware, wire, and spare batteries both domestic and internationally and had no issues. They did search the bag once, but left all my things. Ryan Harkins NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ / Project Manager Synergy Renewable Systems, LLC PO Box 58 Stoughton, WI 53589 PH: (608) 712-7862 ryan.harkins at energycraft.com www.energycraft.com On Sep 28, 2015, at 8:37 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches > I fly a few times a month, one time they ask about all batteries, I will not carry anything check it all not had any issues. > Jerry > > On Sep 28, 2015 3:18 PM, "Dan Fink" wrote: > Esteemed Wrenches > I normally drive to jobs with my tools, or UPS ship the tools ahead of time. This upcoming MET tower maintenance job in Nevada is too tight a timeline to drive or ship. I figured some of you have recent experience with this, and the rules seem to change quickly. I have to fly with my impact, driver, 3 batteries and charger. > > From the TSA PDF (no date of course): > https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ash/ash_programs/hazmat/passenger_info/media/faa_airline_passengers_and_batteries.pdf > > My batteries are 56 watt-hour lithium ion; I'd rather not have this heavy stuff in my carry-on. What is "protected" for checked bags, the Makita has a sliding sleeve. Does that count? No "spare" batteries allowed in checked bags? I am taking this that I can bring one battery in my checked bag, one in my carryon, and a charger? That would work. > > Any input appreciated, a long security delay or seized tools would be a big problem. > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2013-04-12 at 2.33.51 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 15648 bytes Desc: not available URL: From windsine at gmail.com Tue Sep 29 10:46:31 2015 From: windsine at gmail.com (Roy Rakobitsch) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 09:46:31 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flying with Makita batteries in checked or carryon? In-Reply-To: <6BF7B7D9-7CF6-498E-84AF-C66D9942E98D@energycraft.com> References: <6BF7B7D9-7CF6-498E-84AF-C66D9942E98D@energycraft.com> Message-ID: I usually try to ship tools and materials ahead of time, but have flown with plenty of tools/batteries and aerosols and various chemicals that you probably shouldnt fly with (all of these have been in checked bags). Ive had my bags searched plenty of times, and never have there been any issues, except once TSA took and discarded my sunscreen!!, which had the top taped shut. -I found that pretty strange, and flew home with a sunburn. You'll probably be fine. Roy Rakobitsch NABCEP Certified Small Wind Installer® NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® Certified Advanced Tower Climbing, Safety & Rescue Wind/PV Design Engineer Windsine LLC 631-514-4166 www.windsine.org On Sep 29, 2015 9:39 AM, "Synergy Renewable Systems" < ryan.harkins at energycraft.com> wrote: > I've checked tools, hardware, wire, and spare batteries both domestic and > internationally and had no issues. They did search the bag once, but left > all my things. > > > > > *Ryan HarkinsNABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ /Project > Manager* > > > Synergy Renewable Systems, LLC > PO Box 58 > Stoughton, WI 53589 > PH: (608) 712-7862 > ryan.harkins at energycraft.com > www.energycraft.com > > > > On Sep 28, 2015, at 8:37 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > > Wrenches > I fly a few times a month, one time they ask about all batteries, I will > not carry anything check it all not had any issues. > Jerry > On Sep 28, 2015 3:18 PM, "Dan Fink" wrote: > >> Esteemed Wrenches >> I normally drive to jobs with my tools, or UPS ship the tools ahead of >> time. This upcoming MET tower maintenance job in Nevada is too tight a >> timeline to drive or ship. I figured some of you have recent experience >> with this, and the rules seem to change quickly. I have to fly with my >> impact, driver, 3 batteries and charger. >> >> From the TSA PDF (no date of course): >> >> https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ash/ash_programs/hazmat/passenger_info/media/faa_airline_passengers_and_batteries.pdf >> >> My batteries are 56 watt-hour lithium ion; I'd rather not have this heavy >> stuff in my carry-on. What is "protected" for checked bags, the Makita has >> a sliding sleeve. Does that count? No "spare" batteries allowed in checked >> bags? I am taking this that I can bring one battery in my checked bag, one >> in my carryon, and a charger? That would work. >> >> Any input appreciated, a long security delay or seized tools would be a >> big problem. >> >> Dan Fink >> Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute >> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: >> ~ PV Installation Professional >> ~ Small Wind Installer >> Executive Director, Buckville Energy >> NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ >> 970.672.4342 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2013-04-12 at 2.33.51 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 15648 bytes Desc: not available URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Tue Sep 29 15:46:49 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 13:46:49 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid tie in Nicaragua Message-ID: Has anyone done a grid tie system in Nicaragua? I would appreciate talking about equipment reliability and other difficulity due to utility power instability. Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at ecologicalsystems.biz Tue Sep 29 18:47:44 2015 From: sky at ecologicalsystems.biz (sky at ecologicalsystems.biz) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 18:47:44 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DPW classic classic rack Message-ID: <47101035-C9D8-4FDD-B07C-86D433FD6202@ecologicalsystems.biz> Is anyone else having trouble getting replacement parts for DPW's classic classic rack(it's their first generation power rail)? We've been trying to obtain end clips and stand off brackets for over 6 months now. DPW has referred us to 3 different suppliers and each supplier in turn has told us that DPW will not ship them the parts. Is anyone else having these types of problems with DPW? Let me know, Sky From solar1online at charter.net Tue Sep 29 20:24:22 2015 From: solar1online at charter.net (Bill Loesch) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 19:24:22 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DPW classic classic rack In-Reply-To: <47101035-C9D8-4FDD-B07C-86D433FD6202@ecologicalsystems.biz> References: <47101035-C9D8-4FDD-B07C-86D433FD6202@ecologicalsystems.biz> Message-ID: <560B2BB6.1030604@charter.net> Sky, Call Rae at DPW if it is going to happen, she can make it happen. Painlessly, perhaps. Like William Miller said, I am not a shill for DPW, but they have been around for 20+ years and they make a _lot_ of good stuff. Best wishes, Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 On 9/29/2015 5:47 PM, sky at ecologicalsystems.biz wrote: > Is anyone else having trouble getting replacement parts for DPW's classic classic rack(it's their first generation power rail)? We've been trying to obtain end clips and stand off brackets for over 6 months now. DPW has referred us to 3 different suppliers and each supplier in turn has told us that DPW will not ship them the parts. > Is anyone else having these types of problems with DPW? > > Let me know, > Sky > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Wed Sep 30 22:43:51 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 20:43:51 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Five L16s in a 24V string? Message-ID: <560C9DE7.3020209@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Thu Oct 1 00:46:58 2015 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 04:46:58 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid tie in Nicaragua In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6763addc235d43e9af6920c61f1076ee@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Hi Larry, I know of a Wrench living in Nicaragua doing PV work (not on the list) who I could connect you with if you would like. Kevin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Starlight Solar Power Systems Sent: September-29-15 12:47 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid tie in Nicaragua Has anyone done a grid tie system in Nicaragua? I would appreciate talking about equipment reliability and other difficulity due to utility power instability. Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Oct 1 00:58:35 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 18:58:35 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Five L16s in a 24V string? In-Reply-To: <560C9DE7.3020209@sindelarsolar.com> References: <560C9DE7.3020209@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: I have18 on a 48 volt outback system just set the CC and chargrr up a little. My concern about 5 on a 24 volt is how deep the batteries really get charged, 7.5 v a battery is 37.5 and thats above the inverter operating range same issue with nickle iron. There may not be good spec gravity for long life and capasity. Jerry On Sep 30, 2015 7:44 PM, "Allan Sindelar" wrote: > Wrenches, especially the grizzled ones, > I was referred to a couple for off grid service about 75 miles from here. > They have an older homeowner-built 24V system (that I haven't seen yet) and > have lived with it for decades. They have ten L16s in two parallel strings. > I questioned this when I first heard it, but the owner told me that the > most positive cell is the one that always fails first, and he hates the > effort of periodically rotating his batteries, so the battery nearest the > positive cable has another L16 in parallel with only this battery. He > explained that he has lived this way for thirty years. I don't yet know > what life they have gotten from their battery sets, but until recently they > lived on 750W of PV, and now have around 1kW - not a large array. > > I respectfully replied that in nearly thirty years in the field, this is > the first time I had heard of this approach. My own experience is that > while sometimes I had sometimes seen marginally more water consumption in > the lead positive cells as they aged, when I had tested for failed cells in > old strings, the failed cells tended to be randomly located, and not > frequently enough at the positive end to suggest a pattern. I had also long > ago read (Surrette's manual?) that rotating the lead cell is good practice, > but unless a system has a single series string, wired to make this > possible, nobody ever did this rotation, and it didn't appear to make a > noticeable difference in long-term performance. > > Has anyone else heard of this approach? Is there validity to the logic? > What can I learn here that I didn't know? > Thank you, > Allan > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Thu Oct 1 12:26:17 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 10:26:17 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Five L16s in a 24V string? In-Reply-To: References: <560C9DE7.3020209@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <560D5EA9.7060901@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Thu Oct 1 12:41:22 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 10:41:22 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Five L16s in a 24V string? In-Reply-To: <560C9DE7.3020209@sindelarsolar.com> References: <560C9DE7.3020209@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Allan, The battery "pair" is operating in parallel so the current flowing through that string will be divided between the two. This means that each battery in the parallel set is only being discharged half of what the others in the string are. So, of course, those batteries will be lasting longer since they have half the DoD each day. A very strange setup, I’ve never seen this. Since I rarely see a true battery failure (most are damaged by the owner) I can’t say that I’ve noticed any pattern. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Sep 30, 2015, at 8:43 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: Wrenches, especially the grizzled ones, I was referred to a couple for off grid service about 75 miles from here. They have an older homeowner-built 24V system (that I haven't seen yet) and have lived with it for decades. They have ten L16s in two parallel strings. I questioned this when I first heard it, but the owner told me that the most positive cell is the one that always fails first, and he hates the effort of periodically rotating his batteries, so the battery nearest the positive cable has another L16 in parallel with only this battery. He explained that he has lived this way for thirty years. I don't yet know what life they have gotten from their battery sets, but until recently they lived on 750W of PV, and now have around 1kW - not a large array. I respectfully replied that in nearly thirty years in the field, this is the first time I had heard of this approach. My own experience is that while sometimes I had sometimes seen marginally more water consumption in the lead positive cells as they aged, when I had tested for failed cells in old strings, the failed cells tended to be randomly located, and not frequently enough at the positive end to suggest a pattern. I had also long ago read (Surrette's manual?) that rotating the lead cell is good practice, but unless a system has a single series string, wired to make this possible, nobody ever did this rotation, and it didn't appear to make a noticeable difference in long-term performance. Has anyone else heard of this approach? Is there validity to the logic? What can I learn here that I didn't know? Thank you, Allan -- Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Thu Oct 1 15:04:44 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 13:04:44 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Five L16s in a 24V string? In-Reply-To: <560D5EA9.7060901@sindelarsolar.com> References: <560C9DE7.3020209@sindelarsolar.com> <560D5EA9.7060901@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <56D9C6B6-C025-4A28-816B-35A3FA765A0D@starlightsolar.com> Since multiple batteries failed ("the one that always fails"), did he buy one new battery each time and tie it to the old failing one? Or, did he start with a new bank and create the parallel at that time? Since he’s an “old timer” he may be mixing different age batteries in the bank. I see this often in Mexico. If that’s the case, it will be difficult to find any cause of failure. On Oct 1, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: Jerry, The five batteries aren't in series. I thought I made that clear, but maybe not. Two are in parallel at 6V at the positive end, and then that pair are in series with the remaining three. Allan Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2015-10-01 at 12.47.46 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 16418 bytes Desc: not available URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Thu Oct 1 15:22:48 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 13:22:48 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Five L16s in a 24V string? In-Reply-To: <56D9C6B6-C025-4A28-816B-35A3FA765A0D@starlightsolar.com> References: <560C9DE7.3020209@sindelarsolar.com> <560D5EA9.7060901@sindelarsolar.com> <56D9C6B6-C025-4A28-816B-35A3FA765A0D@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <560D8808.3040901@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 16418 bytes Desc: not available URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Thu Oct 1 16:40:01 2015 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 14:40:01 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Five L16s in a 24V string? In-Reply-To: <560D8808.3040901@sindelarsolar.com> References: <560C9DE7.3020209@sindelarsolar.com> <560D5EA9.7060901@sindelarsolar.com> <56D9C6B6-C025-4A28-816B-35A3FA765A0D@starlightsolar.com> <560D8808.3040901@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: First time I've heard of something like this since starting in the off-grid business in 1994. Closest I've done to 'rotating' batteries is switching which corners of a series/parallel bank are the main DC connectors. I have noticed, on some occasions, the end cells may use a bit more water. As for cell failures on strings, ends, middles, no particular pattern here with my installations. I *would* say those main end connections are the most important to keep super clean and maintain really good,low resistance connections as in series/parallel setups these connections have the most heating/cooling from higher amperage. At least your client has a couple easily deployable extra batteries if another somewhere in the bank fails! Especially with an aging battery bank. As for the initial confusion on how these extras were wired in, thanks for the diagram. Slightly off topic, I have been running my home/office on NiFe cells for 5 months now and I feel pretty confident about working around their idiosyncrasies. My Outback and Midnite charge controllers couldn't care less what the output voltage is, but the Magnum inverter goes into panic mode when asked to reach the sweet spot of 1.65v per cell off of the backup generator, it assumes the world is ending at 1.6v per cell. Hopefully a Magnum firmware upgrade in the future can fix that. Best regards; Dan Fink Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 1:22 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > Larry, > I don't know the answers to these questions, as I haven't yet been to the > site. This is a new customer, referred to me by another company that > doesn't do off grid - at least, not off grid that works. When he told me > how they were set up on the phone, my gut response was "this sounds dumb, > or I would have heard about it before", but I kept quiet and only gently > said what I wrote in my post. I posted this question in order to have the > Wrenches support for any position I offer when I go there next week. > > Also, the batteries weren't an issue in asking me to do a service call. I > don't yet even know what the issues are, other than their mention of > wanting a backup generator and wanting me to check configuration on an > XW4024 that they recently added. I had been told that they had "ten fork > lift batteries", which isn't possible with 24V, so I asked questions about > that and that led to this thread. > > If I can get any useful information about the batteries I'll post it here. > I'll try to check SG's and maybe even some sort of load test, but likely > off the clock, as battery trouble wasn't a presenting issue when they asked > for a service call. > > Larry, nice drawing below. What did you use, as I need to learn it too? > Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* > > > On 10/1/2015 1:04 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > > Since multiple batteries failed ("the one that always fails"), did he buy > one new battery each time and tie it to the old failing one? Or, did he > start with a new bank and create the parallel at that time? Since he’s an > “old timer” he may be mixing different age batteries in the bank. I see > this often in Mexico. If that’s the case, it will be difficult to find any > cause of failure. > > > On Oct 1, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Allan Sindelar < > allan at sindelarsolar.com> wrote: > > Jerry, > The five batteries aren't in series. I thought I made that clear, but > maybe not. Two are in parallel at 6V at the positive end, and then that > pair are in series with the remaining three. > Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 16418 bytes Desc: not available URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Thu Oct 1 17:07:40 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 15:07:40 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Five L16s in a 24V string? In-Reply-To: <560D8808.3040901@sindelarsolar.com> References: <560C9DE7.3020209@sindelarsolar.com> <560D5EA9.7060901@sindelarsolar.com> <56D9C6B6-C025-4A28-816B-35A3FA765A0D@starlightsolar.com> <560D8808.3040901@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Took about a minute to draw with Pages on a Mac. On Oct 1, 2015, at 1:22 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: ….Larry, nice drawing below. What did you use, as I need to learn it too? Allan Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From boB at midnitesolar.com Thu Oct 1 17:22:47 2015 From: boB at midnitesolar.com (boB at midnitesolar.com) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 14:22:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Five L16s in a 24V string? In-Reply-To: References: <560C9DE7.3020209@sindelarsolar.com> <560D5EA9.7060901@sindelarsolar.com> <56D9C6B6-C025-4A28-816B-35A3FA765A0D@starlightsolar.com> <560D8808.3040901@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <560DA427.5030804@midnitesolar.com> I would think that doing this would be asking for un-balanced batteries in the string (un-equal battery voltage) But I guess I can't argue with success ? Put the positive battery in the middle then so it won't be on the end ? :) :-) boB On 10/1/2015 2:07 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > Took about a minute to draw with Pages on a Mac. > > On Oct 1, 2015, at 1:22 PM, Allan Sindelar > wrote: > > ….Larry, nice drawing below. What did you use, as I need to learn it too? > > Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > ** > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com Thu Oct 1 18:58:04 2015 From: bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com (Brian Teitelbaum) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 15:58:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Five L16s in a 24V string? In-Reply-To: <560DA427.5030804@midnitesolar.com> References: <560C9DE7.3020209@sindelarsolar.com> <560D5EA9.7060901@sindelarsolar.com> <56D9C6B6-C025-4A28-816B-35A3FA765A0D@starlightsolar.com> <560D8808.3040901@sindelarsolar.com> <560DA427.5030804@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: But boB… Wouldn’t you end up with a bi-polar battery bank? Or just a bi-polar installer? Seriously though, I have never seen such a thing either in my 30+ years of working with battery systems. It’s kind of like using an L16 as the last battery on a string of golf-cart batteries. Yes, it would go through less-deep discharges than the smaller batteries, but would it last longer? These folks seem to think so. Interesting idea, but not sure that they really gain anything for the extra cost. Brian AEE Solar *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *boB at midnitesolar.com *Sent:* Thursday, October 01, 2015 2:23 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Five L16s in a 24V string? I would think that doing this would be asking for un-balanced batteries in the string (un-equal battery voltage) But I guess I can't argue with success ? Put the positive battery in the middle then so it won't be on the end ? :) :-) boB On 10/1/2015 2:07 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: Took about a minute to draw with Pages on a Mac. On Oct 1, 2015, at 1:22 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: ….Larry, nice drawing below. What did you use, as I need to learn it too? Allan *Allan Sindelar* *allan at sindelarsolar.com* NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Thu Oct 1 19:48:11 2015 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 17:48:11 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Five L16s in a 24V string? In-Reply-To: References: <560C9DE7.3020209@sindelarsolar.com> <560D5EA9.7060901@sindelarsolar.com> <56D9C6B6-C025-4A28-816B-35A3FA765A0D@starlightsolar.com> <560D8808.3040901@sindelarsolar.com> <560DA427.5030804@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: I think I would go with Lithium technology for a bi-polar battery or installer disorder, ask your doctor or psychiatric health provider ;-) I am chalking this up to old-time off-grid lore I've never heard of before. and I'm an old-timer at off-grid too. The way to protect those string end batteries from problems is the same as every other battery in the series/parallel bank -- regular maintenance to maintain clean low-resistance connections, but especially on the main corner DC connections to the inverter / power panel etc. Perhaps a case of "it ain't broke, don't fix it, been workin' fine all these years?" . Dan Fink Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 4:58 PM, Brian Teitelbaum wrote: > But boB… > > > > Wouldn’t you end up with a bi-polar battery bank? > > > > Or just a bi-polar installer? > > > > Seriously though, I have never seen such a thing either in my 30+ years of > working with battery systems. It’s kind of like using an L16 as the last > battery on a string of golf-cart batteries. Yes, it would go through > less-deep discharges than the smaller batteries, but would it last longer? > These folks seem to think so. Interesting idea, but not sure that they > really gain anything for the extra cost. > > > > Brian > > AEE Solar > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *boB at midnitesolar.com > *Sent:* Thursday, October 01, 2015 2:23 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Five L16s in a 24V string? > > > > > I would think that doing this would be asking for un-balanced batteries in > the string (un-equal battery voltage) > > But I guess I can't argue with success ? > > Put the positive battery in the middle then so it won't be on the end ? > :) :-) > > boB > > > > On 10/1/2015 2:07 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > > Took about a minute to draw with Pages on a Mac. > > On Oct 1, 2015, at 1:22 PM, Allan Sindelar > wrote: > > > > ….Larry, nice drawing below. What did you use, as I need to learn it too? > > > Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > *allan at sindelarsolar.com* > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at harvesthesun.com Sat Oct 3 11:49:19 2015 From: eric at harvesthesun.com (SunHarvest) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 08:49:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Tracker - Best available? Message-ID: <4027F342-FE7B-4E93-B0B0-BDA9BF82BC75@harvesthesun.com> Given 310# snow load in the Sierras, what are some suggestions for a superior pole-mounted tracking system? Right now I'm considering DHSolar, but I'm unfamiliar with the product. Eric Stikes GoodSun Solar A 501(C)(3) CA. Non-profit Corp. NABCEP PV Pro 001.530.798.3738 (cell) www.GoodSun.life [sent via pigeon...or cell phone] From larry at starlightsolar.com Sat Oct 3 15:04:42 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 13:04:42 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Tracker - Best available? In-Reply-To: <4027F342-FE7B-4E93-B0B0-BDA9BF82BC75@harvesthesun.com> References: <4027F342-FE7B-4E93-B0B0-BDA9BF82BC75@harvesthesun.com> Message-ID: <5E0E7156-F5E1-4EEA-916A-54ABC6765D71@starlightsolar.com> Hello Eric, With the low cost of PV solar modules, I would like to know why anyone would choose to track the sun? It cost's much more and is a maintenance issue compared to adding more PV modules to make up the difference. Tracking winter gain is about 10% and summer about 40%. If there is no space available for more PV it makes sense if you must have more production. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Oct 3, 2015, at 9:49 AM, SunHarvest wrote: Given 310# snow load in the Sierras, what are some suggestions for a superior pole-mounted tracking system? Right now I'm considering DHSolar, but I'm unfamiliar with the product. Eric Stikes GoodSun Solar A 501(C)(3) CA. Non-profit Corp. NABCEP PV Pro 001.530.798.3738 (cell) www.GoodSun.life [sent via pigeon...or cell phone] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Oct 3 13:23:03 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 11:23:03 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Tracker - Best available? In-Reply-To: <4027F342-FE7B-4E93-B0B0-BDA9BF82BC75@harvesthesun.com> References: <4027F342-FE7B-4E93-B0B0-BDA9BF82BC75@harvesthesun.com> Message-ID: Have you looked at array technologies? jay peltz power > On Oct 3, 2015, at 9:49 AM, SunHarvest wrote: > > Given 310# snow load in the Sierras, what are some suggestions for a superior pole-mounted tracking system? Right now I'm considering DHSolar, but I'm unfamiliar with the product. > > Eric Stikes > GoodSun Solar > A 501(C)(3) CA. Non-profit Corp. > NABCEP PV Pro > 001.530.798.3738 (cell) > www.GoodSun.life > [sent via pigeon...or cell phone] > From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Oct 3 15:16:43 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 09:16:43 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Tracker - Best available? In-Reply-To: <4027F342-FE7B-4E93-B0B0-BDA9BF82BC75@harvesthesun.com> References: <4027F342-FE7B-4E93-B0B0-BDA9BF82BC75@harvesthesun.com> Message-ID: We have used zomeworks passive trackers in snow load, high wind and have not had any issues, i have seen some that were over loaded and still they have no issues. Jerry On Oct 3, 2015 8:49 AM, "SunHarvest" wrote: > Given 310# snow load in the Sierras, what are some suggestions for a > superior pole-mounted tracking system? Right now I'm considering DHSolar, > but I'm unfamiliar with the product. > > Eric Stikes > GoodSun Solar > A 501(C)(3) CA. Non-profit Corp. > NABCEP PV Pro > 001.530.798.3738 (cell) > www.GoodSun.life > [sent via pigeon...or cell phone] > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Oct 3 15:42:25 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 09:42:25 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Tracker - Best available? In-Reply-To: References: <4027F342-FE7B-4E93-B0B0-BDA9BF82BC75@harvesthesun.com> Message-ID: Yes i do a lot of repairs but i will not install them, i prefer no electronics and motor drives seems to be the failure point. Zomeworks has none of this. Jerry On Oct 3, 2015 12:38 PM, "jay" wrote: > Have you looked at array technologies? > > jay > > peltz power > > > > On Oct 3, 2015, at 9:49 AM, SunHarvest wrote: > > > > Given 310# snow load in the Sierras, what are some suggestions for a > superior pole-mounted tracking system? Right now I'm considering DHSolar, > but I'm unfamiliar with the product. > > > > Eric Stikes > > GoodSun Solar > > A 501(C)(3) CA. Non-profit Corp. > > NABCEP PV Pro > > 001.530.798.3738 (cell) > > www.GoodSun.life > > [sent via pigeon...or cell phone] > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at harvesthesun.com Sat Oct 3 16:08:42 2015 From: eric at harvesthesun.com (SunHarvest) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 13:08:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Tracker - Best available? In-Reply-To: <5E0E7156-F5E1-4EEA-916A-54ABC6765D71@starlightsolar.com> References: <4027F342-FE7B-4E93-B0B0-BDA9BF82BC75@harvesthesun.com> <5E0E7156-F5E1-4EEA-916A-54ABC6765D71@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <1F930FC6-BC0D-4C46-AF95-40C3665BEABA@harvesthesun.com> This was my first recommendation to the client, to avoid tracking. But they really want a tracker (they're trying to keep up with their neighbors who have one). My engineer steered me to GMI trackers and those look very robust but are too pricey for this client. Eric Stikes GoodSun Solar A 501(C)(3) CA. Non-profit Corp. NABCEP PV Pro 001.530.798.3738 (cell) www.GoodSun.life [sent via pigeon...or cell phone] > On Oct 3, 2015, at 12:04 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > > Hello Eric, > > With the low cost of PV solar modules, I would like to know why anyone would choose to track the sun? It cost's much more and is a maintenance issue compared to adding more PV modules to make up the difference. Tracking winter gain is about 10% and summer about 40%. If there is no space available for more PV it makes sense if you must have more production. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > On Oct 3, 2015, at 9:49 AM, SunHarvest wrote: > > Given 310# snow load in the Sierras, what are some suggestions for a superior pole-mounted tracking system? Right now I'm considering DHSolar, but I'm unfamiliar with the product. > > Eric Stikes > GoodSun Solar > A 501(C)(3) CA. Non-profit Corp. > NABCEP PV Pro > 001.530.798.3738 (cell) > www.GoodSun.life > [sent via pigeon...or cell phone] > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Oct 3 16:06:08 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 10:06:08 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Tracker - Best available? In-Reply-To: <4027F342-FE7B-4E93-B0B0-BDA9BF82BC75@harvesthesun.com> References: <4027F342-FE7B-4E93-B0B0-BDA9BF82BC75@harvesthesun.com> Message-ID: I have some up in that area and given winter angle, no issues. I have seen some issues with cheaper modules getting water between the frame and glass causing issues. Jerry On Oct 3, 2015 8:49 AM, "SunHarvest" wrote: > Given 310# snow load in the Sierras, what are some suggestions for a > superior pole-mounted tracking system? Right now I'm considering DHSolar, > but I'm unfamiliar with the product. > > Eric Stikes > GoodSun Solar > A 501(C)(3) CA. Non-profit Corp. > NABCEP PV Pro > 001.530.798.3738 (cell) > www.GoodSun.life > [sent via pigeon...or cell phone] > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Sat Oct 3 17:48:29 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 15:48:29 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Tracker - Best available? In-Reply-To: <1F930FC6-BC0D-4C46-AF95-40C3665BEABA@harvesthesun.com> References: <4027F342-FE7B-4E93-B0B0-BDA9BF82BC75@harvesthesun.com> <5E0E7156-F5E1-4EEA-916A-54ABC6765D71@starlightsolar.com> <1F930FC6-BC0D-4C46-AF95-40C3665BEABA@harvesthesun.com> Message-ID: <8347FB70-A971-4201-A2C8-9DA1DB943C5A@starlightsolar.com> I see. Well then you need something heavy duty up there. I can heartily recommend the DH tracker as it is built on the same technology as their satellite trackers. I have installed quite a few of their satellite antenna trackers in the 90’s. Well built. They are still using a picture of one of my installations of a 5 meter antenna: http://www.dhsatellite.com/mounts/gibralter-fixed-az-el-02/ Larry On Oct 3, 2015, at 2:08 PM, SunHarvest wrote: This was my first recommendation to the client, to avoid tracking. But they really want a tracker (they're trying to keep up with their neighbors who have one). My engineer steered me to GMI trackers and those look very robust but are too pricey for this client. Eric Stikes GoodSun Solar A 501(C)(3) CA. Non-profit Corp. NABCEP PV Pro 001.530.798.3738 (cell) www.GoodSun.life [sent via pigeon...or cell phone] > On Oct 3, 2015, at 12:04 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > > Hello Eric, > > With the low cost of PV solar modules, I would like to know why anyone would choose to track the sun? It cost's much more and is a maintenance issue compared to adding more PV modules to make up the difference. Tracking winter gain is about 10% and summer about 40%. If there is no space available for more PV it makes sense if you must have more production. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > On Oct 3, 2015, at 9:49 AM, SunHarvest wrote: > > Given 310# snow load in the Sierras, what are some suggestions for a superior pole-mounted tracking system? Right now I'm considering DHSolar, but I'm unfamiliar with the product. > > Eric Stikes > GoodSun Solar > A 501(C)(3) CA. Non-profit Corp. > NABCEP PV Pro > 001.530.798.3738 (cell) > www.GoodSun.life > [sent via pigeon...or cell phone] > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Sat Oct 3 22:56:59 2015 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (William Dorsett) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 21:56:59 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Tracker - Best available? In-Reply-To: <5E0E7156-F5E1-4EEA-916A-54ABC6765D71@starlightsolar.com> References: <4027F342-FE7B-4E93-B0B0-BDA9BF82BC75@harvesthesun.com> <5E0E7156-F5E1-4EEA-916A-54ABC6765D71@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <012901d0fe50$57523af0$05f6b0d0$@sbcglobal.net> Tracking not specific to the high Sierras but to Larry's point: In cooling dominated regions, the loads are shifted into the later afternoons. Of those 10% winter gains and especially the 40% summer, half is in the morning when it makes much more sense to put the additional cost that would go to tracking into fixed West or Southwest facing additional modules. Much less cost and much higher value. Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Starlight Solar Power Systems Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2015 2:05 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Tracker - Best available? Hello Eric, With the low cost of PV solar modules, I would like to know why anyone would choose to track the sun? It cost's much more and is a maintenance issue compared to adding more PV modules to make up the difference. Tracking winter gain is about 10% and summer about 40%. If there is no space available for more PV it makes sense if you must have more production. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Oct 3, 2015, at 9:49 AM, SunHarvest wrote: Given 310# snow load in the Sierras, what are some suggestions for a superior pole-mounted tracking system? Right now I'm considering DHSolar, but I'm unfamiliar with the product. Eric Stikes GoodSun Solar A 501(C)(3) CA. Non-profit Corp. NABCEP PV Pro 001.530.798.3738 (cell) www.GoodSun.life [sent via pigeon...or cell phone] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From allan at sindelarsolar.com Sun Oct 4 00:19:38 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 22:19:38 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Tracker - Best available? In-Reply-To: <012901d0fe50$57523af0$05f6b0d0$@sbcglobal.net> References: <4027F342-FE7B-4E93-B0B0-BDA9BF82BC75@harvesthesun.com> <5E0E7156-F5E1-4EEA-916A-54ABC6765D71@starlightsolar.com> <012901d0fe50$57523af0$05f6b0d0$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <5610A8DA.40401@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Oct 4 11:13:57 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 09:13:57 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Tracker - Best available? In-Reply-To: <5610A8DA.40401@sindelarsolar.com> References: <4027F342-FE7B-4E93-B0B0-BDA9BF82BC75@harvesthesun.com> <5E0E7156-F5E1-4EEA-916A-54ABC6765D71@starlightsolar.com> <012901d0fe50$57523af0$05f6b0d0$@sbcglobal.net> <5610A8DA.40401@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <79C497D5-A0F6-4FDB-AD81-0C8AA3AF636C@gmail.com> I agree that in many places installing a tracker isn’t economic, but not everyone does things with cost as the goal. I’ve installed trackers because people wanted to see it move. I’ve installed trackers for folks who didn’t want to adjust for seasons. Yea we can have a long discussion about the economics of all that. But the point is that this is what the customer wanted. And I’ve gotten in big trouble in the past for not doing what the customer wanted. So installing a tracker probably isn’t going to be as cost effective as fixed, its going to have more MX cost than fixed. But its not wrong. jay peltz power > On Oct 3, 2015, at 10:19 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > > Bill's point is well made, and equally relevant in heating dominated regions. These typically are northern latitudes, where winter days are shorter, and mountain regions, where severe winter weather keeps people indoors, meaning more lights, more indoor activities and more boiler runtime. The greatest loads occur when the solar resource is the least and tracking gives the least advantage. > > May I suggest that you sell your client on being smarter than his neighbor with the tracker? Present it well and you could end up with a more productive array and fewer maintenance headaches. > Allan > > Allan Sindelar > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > 505 780-2738 cell > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Sun Oct 4 13:29:07 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 11:29:07 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ] PV Tracker - Best available? In-Reply-To: <79C497D5-A0F6-4FDB-AD81-0C8AA3AF636C@gmail.com> References: <4027F342-FE7B-4E93-B0B0-BDA9BF82BC75@harvesthesun.com> <5E0E7156-F5E1-4EEA-916A-54ABC6765D71@starlightsolar.com> <012901d0fe50$57523af0$05f6b0d0$@sbcglobal.net> <5610A8DA.40401@sindelarsolar.com> <79C497D5-A0F6-4FDB-AD81-0C8AA3AF636C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002e01d0feca$2d10f7c0$8732e740$@com> I have contributed this before but hope it helps. I had a set (6) 250 watt PV on a tracker and (6) 250 watt PV on a fixed roof mount here at the office. Year round average gain of tracked over fixed 32%, & almost equal differential month to month. I am a total tracker advocate esp. in off grid systems where capturing all the watts possible due to a limited solar window is critical or footprint for the array is limited, trackers rule. That said, I have costed out 3KW grid tie designs where the client wanted a tracker and the materials cost was +$1200 with tracking VS fixed allowing for the offset of additional output on the tracker at 32% less PV required VS a flat 3KW fixed mount on a pole. I have to say the reliability on Wattsun trackers is superb I cannot speak for competitors tracking units. I have used them for 20+ years and today’s Wattsun/Array Tech. tracker is bomber stout. Trackers have their place, & with the decreased $/watt on PV it’s hard to pencil out the rational at times. My next off grid home in ID will be tracked as the space required on a 14° slope was too big a footprint to install a fixed array. One other point was reflectivity: The County required a reflectivity study for fixed arrays to prove the array would not cross a county road, and a tracked array reflects back to the sun. One less hoop to jump through, & a big bonus! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2015 9:14 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Tracker - Best available? I agree that in many places installing a tracker isn’t economic, but not everyone does things with cost as the goal. I’ve installed trackers because people wanted to see it move. I’ve installed trackers for folks who didn’t want to adjust for seasons. Yea we can have a long discussion about the economics of all that. But the point is that this is what the customer wanted. And I’ve gotten in big trouble in the past for not doing what the customer wanted. So installing a tracker probably isn’t going to be as cost effective as fixed, its going to have more MX cost than fixed. But its not wrong. jay peltz power On Oct 3, 2015, at 10:19 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: Bill's point is well made, and equally relevant in heating dominated regions. These typically are northern latitudes, where winter days are shorter, and mountain regions, where severe winter weather keeps people indoors, meaning more lights, more indoor activities and more boiler runtime. The greatest loads occur when the solar resource is the least and tracking gives the least advantage. May I suggest that you sell your client on being smarter than his neighbor with the tracker? Present it well and you could end up with a more productive array and fewer maintenance headaches. Allan Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Sun Oct 4 13:32:16 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 11:32:16 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Tracker - Best available? In-Reply-To: <4027F342-FE7B-4E93-B0B0-BDA9BF82BC75@harvesthesun.com> References: <4027F342-FE7B-4E93-B0B0-BDA9BF82BC75@harvesthesun.com> Message-ID: <003301d0feca$9dce0d40$d96a27c0$@com> You can lock the Array Technologies tracker to a very steep angle for the winter. I have several older clients on tracker that have me lock up the N/S angle for the winter so the tracker sheds snow without their labor. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of SunHarvest Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2015 9:49 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Tracker - Best available? Given 310# snow load in the Sierras, what are some suggestions for a superior pole-mounted tracking system? Right now I'm considering DHSolar, but I'm unfamiliar with the product. Eric Stikes GoodSun Solar A 501(C)(3) CA. Non-profit Corp. NABCEP PV Pro 001.530.798.3738 (cell) www.GoodSun.life [sent via pigeon...or cell phone] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From chris at solarwindworks.com Sun Oct 4 16:48:48 2015 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 13:48:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Tracker - Best available? In-Reply-To: <003301d0feca$9dce0d40$d96a27c0$@com> References: <4027F342-FE7B-4E93-B0B0-BDA9BF82BC75@harvesthesun.com> <003301d0feca$9dce0d40$d96a27c0$@com> Message-ID: <012001d0fee6$138682e0$3a9388a0$@solarwindworks.com> We have a few of the Array Tech Wattsun AZ225 trackers here around Truckee, CA and like them for this very reason, that there is a manual override, being able to also lower the tracker to a table top position with the leading edge slightly down into the high wind events we occasionally have, 100 mph +. Our clients appreciate this option! Going vertical in deep snow mode is a second benefit. Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP Certified PV Installer Office 530-582-4503 Cell 530-448-9692 Fax 530-582-4603 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dana Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2015 10:32 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Tracker - Best available? You can lock the Array Technologies tracker to a very steep angle for the winter. I have several older clients on tracker that have me lock up the N/S angle for the winter so the tracker sheds snow without their labor. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of SunHarvest Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2015 9:49 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Tracker - Best available? Given 310# snow load in the Sierras, what are some suggestions for a superior pole-mounted tracking system? Right now I'm considering DHSolar, but I'm unfamiliar with the product. Eric Stikes GoodSun Solar A 501(C)(3) CA. Non-profit Corp. NABCEP PV Pro 001.530.798.3738 (cell) www.GoodSun.life [sent via pigeon...or cell phone] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From greg at remotepowerinc.com Sun Oct 4 22:31:00 2015 From: greg at remotepowerinc.com (Greg) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 18:31:00 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tracker - best available? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5611E0E4.2070001@remotepowerinc.com> Eric, Array Technologies makes a robust tracker but with the price of PV being so low, why wouldn't you just add more pv on fixed racking? Trackers require some maintenance, have a hard time with high winds, have electronics that don't last forever, etc. Your application may really require a tracker for some reason but I'd go with robust fixed racking with a relatively steep tilt angle for snow shedding. Best, Greg Egan Remote Power Inc. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Sun Oct 4 21:56:22 2015 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 18:56:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV testing References: <4027F342-FE7B-4E93-B0B0-BDA9BF82BC75@harvesthesun.com><003301d0feca$9dce0d40$d96a27c0$@com> <012001d0fee6$138682e0$3a9388a0$@solarwindworks.com> Message-ID: <005DF62E48AD4243A9799A82161DC324@D8XG8YH1> Wrenches, As time passeth, we're bumping more into older PVs/arrays that have questionable outputs. After minimizing the variables (dust, temps, sun angle, wiring, expected deterioration with age, etc) and still coming up with low numbers. Testing individual PVs' Voc and Isc don't seem to tell the whole story as they often look good. Would not a definitive test be to wire a suspect PV to an inexpensive mppt CC (oxymoron?) and then to an orphaned battery. The battery would have to have a mondo (surplus) rheostat paralleled to it to maintain a steady voltage during the test. With appropriate metering in place, you would then have Vmmp and Immp as the rheostat is tweaked to hold a steady batt voltage and the CC finds the knee. Help me here. I know its a little spendy to cobble up but the value of nailing an offender might be worth it. Am I missing something? Is it common for inverters to fall off in output gradually? Bill Feather River Solar Electric From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Oct 4 17:53:59 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 11:53:59 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius inverters In-Reply-To: References: <6F33E591-7A7F-4C8C-8232-7C301149606E@aeonsolar.com> Message-ID: Wrenches Looks like the leaks are from the top of the inverters between the front cover and rear. These inverters are nema 4 but water gets in pretty easy so all wrenches beware that this can happen On Sep 17, 2015 3:56 PM, "Jerry Shafer" wrote: > 8 out of 8 had water some 1 in some more, it is hard to tell because it > drains into the conduit and filled the breaker panel until it ran out of > there. I think the issue is not that it is not water proof but when we get > rail it can be over 4 in and hr at times, we have had hurricanes miss us > nearly every week. I am planning to put a roof over the 8 units to protect > them from the amount of rain. Once you look at the way the unit goes > together you will see how it can flood the inverter if there is that much > water. > Jerry > > On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 12:38 PM, Allen Frishman > wrote: > >> Jerry, >> I have not installed any of these but am considering them on an upcoming >> project. How big of an issue are you seeing? >> >> *Al Frishman* >> AeonSolar >> >> *(917) 699-6641 <%28917%29%20699-6641> - cell* >> *(888) 460-2867 <%28888%29%20460-2867>* >> *www.aeonsolar.com * >> >> On Sep 16, 2015, at 2:46 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >> >> Wrenches >> Has anyone had any issues with water getting into Fronius Simo's and >> Promo's, >> Jerry >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sun Oct 4 22:52:05 2015 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 22:52:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV testing In-Reply-To: <005DF62E48AD4243A9799A82161DC324@D8XG8YH1> References: <4027F342-FE7B-4E93-B0B0-BDA9BF82BC75@harvesthesun.com><003301d0feca$9dce0d40$d96a27c0$@com> <012001d0fee6$138682e0$3a9388a0$@solarwindworks.com> <005DF62E48AD4243A9799A82161DC324@D8XG8YH1> Message-ID: <20151005025218.864E4102E5@che.dreamhost.com> Why wouldn't you invest in an I-V curve tester like the Solmetric PVA series and let it do the heavy lifting of the testing you are looking for? Or am I missing something in what you are looking for? Sincerely, Glenn Burt Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. -----Original Message----- From: "frenergy" Sent: ‎10/‎4/‎2015 21:56 To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV testing Wrenches, As time passeth, we're bumping more into older PVs/arrays that have questionable outputs. After minimizing the variables (dust, temps, sun angle, wiring, expected deterioration with age, etc) and still coming up with low numbers. Testing individual PVs' Voc and Isc don't seem to tell the whole story as they often look good. Would not a definitive test be to wire a suspect PV to an inexpensive mppt CC (oxymoron?) and then to an orphaned battery. The battery would have to have a mondo (surplus) rheostat paralleled to it to maintain a steady voltage during the test. With appropriate metering in place, you would then have Vmmp and Immp as the rheostat is tweaked to hold a steady batt voltage and the CC finds the knee. Help me here. I know its a little spendy to cobble up but the value of nailing an offender might be worth it. Am I missing something? Is it common for inverters to fall off in output gradually? Bill Feather River Solar Electric _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solar1online at charter.net Mon Oct 5 05:35:17 2015 From: solar1online at charter.net (Bill Loesch) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 04:35:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV testing In-Reply-To: <20151005025218.864E4102E5@che.dreamhost.com> References: <4027F342-FE7B-4E93-B0B0-BDA9BF82BC75@harvesthesun.com> <003301d0feca$9dce0d40$d96a27c0$@com> <012001d0fee6$138682e0$3a9388a0$@solarwindworks.com> <005DF62E48AD4243A9799A82161DC324@D8XG8YH1> <20151005025218.864E4102E5@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <56124455.3020401@charter.net> Fellow RE-Wrenches, What offerings exist for curve tracers like Glen refers to? Comments on specific models? Thanks, -- Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 On 10/4/2015 9:52 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: > Why wouldn't you invest in an I-V curve tester like the Solmetric PVA > series and let it do the heavy lifting of the testing you are looking for? > Or am I missing something in what you are looking for? > > Sincerely, > Glenn Burt > Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > From: frenergy > Sent: ‎10/‎4/‎2015 21:56 > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV testing > > Wrenches, > > As time passeth, we're bumping more into older PVs/arrays that > have > questionable outputs. After minimizing the variables (dust, temps, sun > angle, wiring, expected deterioration with age, etc) and still coming up > with low numbers. Testing individual PVs' Voc and Isc don't seem to tell > the whole story as they often look good. > > Would not a definitive test be to wire a suspect PV to an > inexpensive mppt CC (oxymoron?) and then to an orphaned battery. The > battery would have to have a mondo (surplus) rheostat paralleled to it to > maintain a steady voltage during the test. With appropriate metering in > place, you would then have Vmmp and Immp as the rheostat is tweaked to > hold > a steady batt voltage and the CC finds the knee. > > Help me here. I know its a little spendy to cobble up but the > value > of nailing an offender might be worth it. Am I missing something? Is it > common for inverters to fall off in output gradually? > > Bill > Feather River Solar Electric --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Mon Oct 5 10:45:31 2015 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 10:45:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC conduit with AC secondary? Message-ID: Wrenchers, Anyone know of code violations associated with running DC conduit in the same trench as conduit for AC secondary? Is that allowed? Bad practice even if allowed?Thanks Adam Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies 4872 State Route 9G Germantown NY, 12526 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Mon Oct 5 10:46:50 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 08:46:50 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV testing In-Reply-To: <005DF62E48AD4243A9799A82161DC324@D8XG8YH1> References: <4027F342-FE7B-4E93-B0B0-BDA9BF82BC75@harvesthesun.com> <003301d0feca$9dce0d40$d96a27c0$@com> <012001d0fee6$138682e0$3a9388a0$@solarwindworks.com> <005DF62E48AD4243A9799A82161DC324@D8XG8YH1> Message-ID: <26679DFC-9C97-4950-970E-6C473A9490BE@starlightsolar.com> Bill, In the shop I have two electronic loads that I use nearly every day with batteries and PV modules. One is a programmable 150W, 360V that can be set for constant power, current or voltage (like this: http://www.amazon.com/Programmable-Electronic-Load-360VDC-CSI3710A/dp/B00D7QGSV4). It’s small enough to take to the field. The other is a 2kW model that I use for battery load and discharge testing. It’s too big to move. I also use the Daystar DS-05A (seen here: http://www.amazon.com/Daystar-DS-05A-Solar-Digital-Meter/dp/B00YVTXZJ4/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1444055204&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=Daystar+PV+irradiancePV) irradiance meter to calculate power by holding it in the same plane as the module to determine actual irradiance striking the surface. Another tool I use is a simple instant read, non contact infrared thermometer to check the cell temperature under test. With these tools and a little information, I can measure instant power and calculate module degradation. Others have suggested higher cost tools but these low cost tools have been reliable for many years. Larry On Oct 4, 2015, at 7:56 PM, frenergy wrote: Wrenches, As time passeth, we're bumping more into older PVs/arrays that have questionable outputs. After minimizing the variables (dust, temps, sun angle, wiring, expected deterioration with age, etc) and still coming up with low numbers. Testing individual PVs' Voc and Isc don't seem to tell the whole story as they often look good. Would not a definitive test be to wire a suspect PV to an inexpensive mppt CC (oxymoron?) and then to an orphaned battery. The battery would have to have a mondo (surplus) rheostat paralleled to it to maintain a steady voltage during the test. With appropriate metering in place, you would then have Vmmp and Immp as the rheostat is tweaked to hold a steady batt voltage and the CC finds the knee. Help me here. I know its a little spendy to cobble up but the value of nailing an offender might be worth it. Am I missing something? Is it common for inverters to fall off in output gradually? Bill Feather River Solar Electric _______________________________________________ From larry at starlightsolar.com Mon Oct 5 11:03:08 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 09:03:08 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC conduit with AC secondary? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <31D36C87-684C-4AE9-8660-CCEE3CE26CE3@starlightsolar.com> I’m not sure of the code but if you do this, be sure to twist the DC wiring to reduce the possibility of common mode noise and inductive coupling from the parallel AC wire. Larry On Oct 5, 2015, at 8:45 AM, AE Solar wrote: Wrenchers, Anyone know of code violations associated with running DC conduit in the same trench as conduit for AC secondary? Is that allowed? Bad practice even if allowed?Thanks Adam Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies 4872 State Route 9G Germantown NY, 12526 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sunengser at gmail.com Mon Oct 5 11:08:54 2015 From: sunengser at gmail.com (Bill Hoffer) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 08:08:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV testing In-Reply-To: <005DF62E48AD4243A9799A82161DC324@D8XG8YH1> References: <4027F342-FE7B-4E93-B0B0-BDA9BF82BC75@harvesthesun.com> <003301d0feca$9dce0d40$d96a27c0$@com> <012001d0fee6$138682e0$3a9388a0$@solarwindworks.com> <005DF62E48AD4243A9799A82161DC324@D8XG8YH1> Message-ID: Bill Performance verification would be your first test that can be done with 2 clamp on meters ( idealy two Power meters like the Seaward Clamp Power Meter ) , ie testing under load knowing the irradiance and cell temperatures and measuring watts in and watts out of the inverter. With that data you should be able to tell if the array is at maximum power point and/or if the Inverter is operating within spec. You should account for irradiance, cell temperature and Light Induced Power degradation ( 1% loss per year unless module manufacturer warranty defines it differently), voltage drop soiling etc... IMHO Curve tracers are a huge investment in money and time to learn how to get meaningful information out of them. Also the 3 choices currently available each have limitations that make it hard to decide which is the best solution. That would be my last investment on the list of test tools. Better to invest in a Insulation Resistance Tester and then something like the PV150 tester ( which can also do DC Power measurements). Bill On Sun, Oct 4, 2015 at 6:56 PM, frenergy wrote: > Wrenches, > > As time passeth, we're bumping more into older PVs/arrays that have > questionable outputs. After minimizing the variables (dust, temps, sun > angle, wiring, expected deterioration with age, etc) and still coming up > with low numbers. Testing individual PVs' Voc and Isc don't seem to tell > the whole story as they often look good. > > Would not a definitive test be to wire a suspect PV to an > inexpensive mppt CC (oxymoron?) and then to an orphaned battery. The > battery would have to have a mondo (surplus) rheostat paralleled to it to > maintain a steady voltage during the test. With appropriate metering in > place, you would then have Vmmp and Immp as the rheostat is tweaked to hold > a steady batt voltage and the CC finds the knee. > > Help me here. I know its a little spendy to cobble up but the > value of nailing an offender might be worth it. Am I missing something? > Is it common for inverters to fall off in output gradually? > > Bill > Feather River Solar Electric > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- William Hoffer 161 SE Fourth Ave P.O. Box 1823 White Salmon, WA 98672-1823 sunengser at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Oct 5 10:58:40 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 04:58:40 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV testing In-Reply-To: <56124455.3020401@charter.net> References: <4027F342-FE7B-4E93-B0B0-BDA9BF82BC75@harvesthesun.com> <003301d0feca$9dce0d40$d96a27c0$@com> <012001d0fee6$138682e0$3a9388a0$@solarwindworks.com> <005DF62E48AD4243A9799A82161DC324@D8XG8YH1> <20151005025218.864E4102E5@che.dreamhost.com> <56124455.3020401@charter.net> Message-ID: We use the solmetric 600 and the 1000 and save the data. It the testing you are doing do you see and modules that stand out as bigger effenders Jerry On Oct 5, 2015 2:35 AM, "Bill Loesch" wrote: > Fellow RE-Wrenches, > > What offerings exist for curve tracers like Glen refers to? Comments on > specific models? > > Thanks, > > -- > Bill Loesch > Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar314 631 1094 > > > > On 10/4/2015 9:52 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: > > Why wouldn't you invest in an I-V curve tester like the Solmetric PVA > series and let it do the heavy lifting of the testing you are looking for? > Or am I missing something in what you are looking for? > > Sincerely, > Glenn Burt > Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. > ------------------------------ > From: frenergy > Sent: ‎10/‎4/‎2015 21:56 > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV testing > > Wrenches, > > As time passeth, we're bumping more into older PVs/arrays that > have > questionable outputs. After minimizing the variables (dust, temps, sun > angle, wiring, expected deterioration with age, etc) and still coming up > with low numbers. Testing individual PVs' Voc and Isc don't seem to tell > the whole story as they often look good. > > Would not a definitive test be to wire a suspect PV to an > inexpensive mppt CC (oxymoron?) and then to an orphaned battery. The > battery would have to have a mondo (surplus) rheostat paralleled to it to > maintain a steady voltage during the test. With appropriate metering in > place, you would then have Vmmp and Immp as the rheostat is tweaked to > hold > a steady batt voltage and the CC finds the knee. > > Help me here. I know its a little spendy to cobble up but the > value > of nailing an offender might be worth it. Am I missing something? Is it > common for inverters to fall off in output gradually? > > Bill > Feather River Solar Electric > > > > > ------------------------------ > [image: Avast logo] > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Mon Oct 5 10:54:39 2015 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 10:54:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV testing In-Reply-To: <26679DFC-9C97-4950-970E-6C473A9490BE@starlightsolar.com> References: <4027F342-FE7B-4E93-B0B0-BDA9BF82BC75@harvesthesun.com> <003301d0feca$9dce0d40$d96a27c0$@com> <012001d0fee6$138682e0$3a9388a0$@solarwindworks.com> <005DF62E48AD4243A9799A82161DC324@D8XG8YH1> <26679DFC-9C97-4950-970E-6C473A9490BE@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: We use a Seaward Solar PV150 for module testing. It quickly tests a range of data points and, when used with the irradiance meter, give a pretty good indication that a module is performing well. http://www.seawardsolar.com/products/pv150-solar-installation-test-kit On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 10:46 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems < larry at starlightsolar.com> wrote: > Bill, > > In the shop I have two electronic loads that I use nearly every day with > batteries and PV modules. One is a programmable 150W, 360V that can be set > for constant power, current or voltage (like this: > http://www.amazon.com/Programmable-Electronic-Load-360VDC-CSI3710A/dp/B00D7QGSV4). > It’s small enough to take to the field. The other is a 2kW model that I use > for battery load and discharge testing. It’s too big to move. > > I also use the Daystar DS-05A (seen here: > http://www.amazon.com/Daystar-DS-05A-Solar-Digital-Meter/dp/B00YVTXZJ4/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1444055204&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=Daystar+PV+irradiancePV) > irradiance meter to calculate power by holding it in the same plane as the > module to determine actual irradiance striking the surface. > > Another tool I use is a simple instant read, non contact infrared > thermometer to check the cell temperature under test. > > With these tools and a little information, I can measure instant power and > calculate module degradation. Others have suggested higher cost tools but > these low cost tools have been reliable for many years. > > Larry > > On Oct 4, 2015, at 7:56 PM, frenergy wrote: > > Wrenches, > > As time passeth, we're bumping more into older PVs/arrays that have > questionable outputs. After minimizing the variables (dust, temps, sun > angle, wiring, expected deterioration with age, etc) and still coming up > with low numbers. Testing individual PVs' Voc and Isc don't seem to tell > the whole story as they often look good. > > Would not a definitive test be to wire a suspect PV to an > inexpensive mppt CC (oxymoron?) and then to an orphaned battery. The > battery would have to have a mondo (surplus) rheostat paralleled to it to > maintain a steady voltage during the test. With appropriate metering in > place, you would then have Vmmp and Immp as the rheostat is tweaked to hold > a steady batt voltage and the CC finds the knee. > > Help me here. I know its a little spendy to cobble up but the value > of nailing an offender might be worth it. Am I missing something? Is it > common for inverters to fall off in output gradually? > > Bill > Feather River Solar Electric > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Mon Oct 5 11:49:08 2015 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 11:49:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV testing In-Reply-To: References: <4027F342-FE7B-4E93-B0B0-BDA9BF82BC75@harvesthesun.com> <003301d0feca$9dce0d40$d96a27c0$@com> <012001d0fee6$138682e0$3a9388a0$@solarwindworks.com> <005DF62E48AD4243A9799A82161DC324@D8XG8YH1> Message-ID: Just a note: The PV150 does insulation testing as part of the series of "one-button" tests. They include: - Earth / ground continuity - Open circuit voltage - Short circuit current - Insulation resistance - DC operating power - Operational current - Polarity - Earth test lead null The American solar industry really should start implementing the IEC 62446 standard on system commissioning and testing standard for all PV installations. http://www.seawardsolar.com/downloads/Standardizing-PV-System-Documentation_and_Verification.pdf On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 11:08 AM, Bill Hoffer wrote: > Bill > > Performance verification would be your first test that can be done with 2 > clamp on meters ( idealy two Power meters like the Seaward Clamp Power > Meter ) , ie testing under load knowing the irradiance and cell > temperatures and measuring watts in and watts out of the inverter. With > that data you should be able to tell if the array is at maximum power point > and/or if the Inverter is operating within spec. You should account for > irradiance, cell temperature and Light Induced Power degradation ( 1% loss > per year unless module manufacturer warranty defines it differently), > voltage drop soiling etc... > > IMHO Curve tracers are a huge investment in money and time to learn how to > get meaningful information out of them. Also the 3 choices currently > available each have limitations that make it hard to decide which is the > best solution. That would be my last investment on the list of test tools. > Better to invest in a Insulation Resistance Tester and then something like > the PV150 tester ( which can also do DC Power measurements). > > Bill > > On Sun, Oct 4, 2015 at 6:56 PM, frenergy wrote: > >> Wrenches, >> >> As time passeth, we're bumping more into older PVs/arrays that >> have questionable outputs. After minimizing the variables (dust, temps, >> sun angle, wiring, expected deterioration with age, etc) and still coming >> up with low numbers. Testing individual PVs' Voc and Isc don't seem to >> tell the whole story as they often look good. >> >> Would not a definitive test be to wire a suspect PV to an >> inexpensive mppt CC (oxymoron?) and then to an orphaned battery. The >> battery would have to have a mondo (surplus) rheostat paralleled to it to >> maintain a steady voltage during the test. With appropriate metering in >> place, you would then have Vmmp and Immp as the rheostat is tweaked to hold >> a steady batt voltage and the CC finds the knee. >> >> Help me here. I know its a little spendy to cobble up but the >> value of nailing an offender might be worth it. Am I missing something? >> Is it common for inverters to fall off in output gradually? >> >> Bill >> Feather River Solar Electric >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > -- > William Hoffer > 161 SE Fourth Ave > P.O. Box 1823 > White Salmon, WA 98672-1823 > sunengser at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com Mon Oct 5 21:37:36 2015 From: jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com (James Rudolph) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 15:37:36 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Haticon Mid and Ends Message-ID: Aloha Wrenches, Does anybody know where I can get Haticon mid and end clips? The lead time with my distributors here is not feasible with my schedule. I believe we need 40mm and 31 mm ends. These are for old installs where the customer is re-roofing and we need to remove and re-install the arrays. (Canadian Solar and SolarWorld modules) Mahalo, *James B. Rudolph* *Haleakala Solar* *Director of Operations Oahu* *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From howie at suncatchervt.com Mon Oct 5 22:34:55 2015 From: howie at suncatchervt.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 22:34:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Apollo charge controller Message-ID: Does anyone have a decent way of checking whether the cooling fan in an Apollo T80 is working properly? It is a variable speed fan, but appears to be a bit challenged (making noise, moving somewhat slowly... Thanks, Howie -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Oct 5 23:13:23 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 21:13:23 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Haticon Mid and Ends In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56133C53.106@solarray.com> Contact S Flex in Denver http://www.sflex.com/htdocs/index.php/us/contact-information R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 10/5/2015 7:37 PM, James Rudolph wrote: > Aloha Wrenches, > Does anybody know where I can get Haticon mid and end clips? The lead > time with my distributors here is not feasible with my schedule. > > I believe we need 40mm and 31 mm ends. > > These are for old installs where the customer is re-roofing and we > need to remove and re-install the arrays. (Canadian Solar and > SolarWorld modules) > > Mahalo, > > * > James B. Rudolph* > *Haleakala Solar* * > * > *Director of Operations Oahu* > *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155 > * > * > * > * > * > > * > * > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at evcl.com Tue Oct 6 00:57:35 2015 From: david at evcl.com (David Coale) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 21:57:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV testing In-Reply-To: <26679DFC-9C97-4950-970E-6C473A9490BE@starlightsolar.com> References: <4027F342-FE7B-4E93-B0B0-BDA9BF82BC75@harvesthesun.com> <003301d0feca$9dce0d40$d96a27c0$@com> <012001d0fee6$138682e0$3a9388a0$@solarwindworks.com> <005DF62E48AD4243A9799A82161DC324@D8XG8YH1> <26679DFC-9C97-4950-970E-6C473A9490BE@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Hi Wrenchers, I have found on the older panels, especially the AstroPower line, the problems tend to be bad solder joints. This shows up as a series resistance. As such, the open circuit voltage and short circuit current will read good. It is not until you put an external load on the panel that you will see any problems. If you want to draw out a simple circuit with a voltage source, a current source and a series resister, you will see this quite clearly. On these older systems I am just looking for the few bad panels to be replaced or fixed (more info on fixing if requested). I am not looking to find the MPP output or the corrected performance of the panel with all the relevant parameters accounted for. A very easy way to do this is to just have one or two 50 watt 12 volt halogen bulbs as a load and measure voltage and current across each pane with this load. I try one bulb and then two bulbs in series and use whatever set up gives me the highest wattage reading and then use this load for the rest of the testing. Bad panels (AstroPower) tend to be 1/2 the output relative to the good panels, or almost no output at all depending on where the bad solder joint is. If you have a bunch of panels you can take down the measurements and then sort through them and get the best panels for your system (I have an excess of panels at this point). It is helpful to have an irradiance meter to make sure you are testing all the panels with about the same input for comparison. The panels of course have to have about the same angle to the sun and similar temp to make the comparison valid. I usually have the panels in the shade and then pull them out for testing so that the temp is all about the same. They can also be tested in place if you can access the leads for testing. I have built a tester with several bulbs and a toggle switch that will let you easily switch between Voc, Isc and with a load using two meters, one for voltage and one for current to make the readings at the same time. No fancy testers required for just finding the few bad panels. David On Oct 5, 2015, at 7:46 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > Bill, > > In the shop I have two electronic loads that I use nearly every day with batteries and PV modules. One is a programmable 150W, 360V that can be set for constant power, current or voltage (like this: http://www.amazon.com/Programmable-Electronic-Load-360VDC-CSI3710A/dp/B00D7QGSV4). It’s small enough to take to the field. The other is a 2kW model that I use for battery load and discharge testing. It’s too big to move. > > I also use the Daystar DS-05A (seen here: http://www.amazon.com/Daystar-DS-05A-Solar-Digital-Meter/dp/B00YVTXZJ4/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1444055204&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=Daystar+PV+irradiancePV) irradiance meter to calculate power by holding it in the same plane as the module to determine actual irradiance striking the surface. > > Another tool I use is a simple instant read, non contact infrared thermometer to check the cell temperature under test. > > With these tools and a little information, I can measure instant power and calculate module degradation. Others have suggested higher cost tools but these low cost tools have been reliable for many years. > > Larry > > On Oct 4, 2015, at 7:56 PM, frenergy wrote: > > Wrenches, > > As time passeth, we're bumping more into older PVs/arrays that have questionable outputs. After minimizing the variables (dust, temps, sun angle, wiring, expected deterioration with age, etc) and still coming up with low numbers. Testing individual PVs' Voc and Isc don't seem to tell the whole story as they often look good. > > Would not a definitive test be to wire a suspect PV to an inexpensive mppt CC (oxymoron?) and then to an orphaned battery. The battery would have to have a mondo (surplus) rheostat paralleled to it to maintain a steady voltage during the test. With appropriate metering in place, you would then have Vmmp and Immp as the rheostat is tweaked to hold a steady batt voltage and the CC finds the knee. > > Help me here. I know its a little spendy to cobble up but the value of nailing an offender might be worth it. Am I missing something? Is it common for inverters to fall off in output gradually? > > Bill > Feather River Solar Electric > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From solar1online at charter.net Tue Oct 6 05:14:11 2015 From: solar1online at charter.net (Bill Loesch) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 04:14:11 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Haticon Mid and Ends In-Reply-To: <56133C53.106@solarray.com> References: <56133C53.106@solarray.com> Message-ID: <561390E3.6040302@charter.net> James, Glad you received at least one potential source for product, so far. With all due respect, why do you need to replace the clips? Any take away for others so as to not have this same issue? Thanks, -- Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 On 10/5/2015 10:13 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > Contact S Flex in Denver > http://www.sflex.com/htdocs/index.php/us/contact-information > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > On 10/5/2015 7:37 PM, James Rudolph wrote: >> Aloha Wrenches, >> Does anybody know where I can get Haticon mid and end clips? The lead >> time with my distributors here is not feasible with my schedule. >> >> I believe we need 40mm and 31 mm ends. >> >> These are for old installs where the customer is re-roofing and we >> need to remove and re-install the arrays. (Canadian Solar and >> SolarWorld modules) >> >> Mahalo, >> >> * >> James B. Rudolph* >> *Haleakala Solar* * >> * >> *Director of Operations Oahu* >> *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155 >> * >> * >> * >> * >> * >> >> * >> * >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Tue Oct 6 07:58:22 2015 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 07:58:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV testing In-Reply-To: References: <4027F342-FE7B-4E93-B0B0-BDA9BF82BC75@harvesthesun.com> <003301d0feca$9dce0d40$d96a27c0$@com> <012001d0fee6$138682e0$3a9388a0$@solarwindworks.com> <005DF62E48AD4243A9799A82161DC324@D8XG8YH1> <26679DFC-9C97-4950-970E-6C473A9490BE@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: If you use the PV150 tester, it will do this test, giving you the Isc for each panel you test. The Isc should be the same for all panels given the same irradiance. It does all the other tests at the same time, and you can record the results to an Excel format report, including the irradiance at the moment of the test. As you can string test, which will identify any strings with bad panels, I think this should be a minimum for any commissioning report. On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 12:57 AM, David Coale wrote: > Hi Wrenchers, > > I have found on the older panels, especially the AstroPower line, the > problems tend to be bad solder joints. This shows up as a series > resistance. As such, the open circuit voltage and short circuit current > will read good. It is not until you put an external load on the panel that > you will see any problems. If you want to draw out a simple circuit with a > voltage source, a current source and a series resister, you will see this > quite clearly. > > On these older systems I am just looking for the few bad panels to be > replaced or fixed (more info on fixing if requested). I am not looking to > find the MPP output or the corrected performance of the panel with all the > relevant parameters accounted for. A very easy way to do this is to just > have one or two 50 watt 12 volt halogen bulbs as a load and measure voltage > and current across each pane with this load. I try one bulb and then two > bulbs in series and use whatever set up gives me the highest wattage > reading and then use this load for the rest of the testing. Bad panels > (AstroPower) tend to be 1/2 the output relative to the good panels, or > almost no output at all depending on where the bad solder joint is. > > If you have a bunch of panels you can take down the measurements and then > sort through them and get the best panels for your system (I have an excess > of panels at this point). It is helpful to have an irradiance meter to > make sure you are testing all the panels with about the same input for > comparison. The panels of course have to have about the same angle to the > sun and similar temp to make the comparison valid. I usually have the > panels in the shade and then pull them out for testing so that the temp is > all about the same. They can also be tested in place if you can access the > leads for testing. > > I have built a tester with several bulbs and a toggle switch that will let > you easily switch between Voc, Isc and with a load using two meters, one > for voltage and one for current to make the readings at the same time. No > fancy testers required for just finding the few bad panels. > > David > > On Oct 5, 2015, at 7:46 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > > > Bill, > > > > In the shop I have two electronic loads that I use nearly every day with > batteries and PV modules. One is a programmable 150W, 360V that can be set > for constant power, current or voltage (like this: > http://www.amazon.com/Programmable-Electronic-Load-360VDC-CSI3710A/dp/B00D7QGSV4). > It’s small enough to take to the field. The other is a 2kW model that I use > for battery load and discharge testing. It’s too big to move. > > > > I also use the Daystar DS-05A (seen here: > http://www.amazon.com/Daystar-DS-05A-Solar-Digital-Meter/dp/B00YVTXZJ4/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1444055204&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=Daystar+PV+irradiancePV) > irradiance meter to calculate power by holding it in the same plane as the > module to determine actual irradiance striking the surface. > > > > Another tool I use is a simple instant read, non contact infrared > thermometer to check the cell temperature under test. > > > > With these tools and a little information, I can measure instant power > and calculate module degradation. Others have suggested higher cost tools > but these low cost tools have been reliable for many years. > > > > Larry > > > > On Oct 4, 2015, at 7:56 PM, frenergy wrote: > > > > Wrenches, > > > > As time passeth, we're bumping more into older PVs/arrays that have > questionable outputs. After minimizing the variables (dust, temps, sun > angle, wiring, expected deterioration with age, etc) and still coming up > with low numbers. Testing individual PVs' Voc and Isc don't seem to tell > the whole story as they often look good. > > > > Would not a definitive test be to wire a suspect PV to an > inexpensive mppt CC (oxymoron?) and then to an orphaned battery. The > battery would have to have a mondo (surplus) rheostat paralleled to it to > maintain a steady voltage during the test. With appropriate metering in > place, you would then have Vmmp and Immp as the rheostat is tweaked to hold > a steady batt voltage and the CC finds the knee. > > > > Help me here. I know its a little spendy to cobble up but the > value of nailing an offender might be worth it. Am I missing something? > Is it common for inverters to fall off in output gradually? > > > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at evcl.com Tue Oct 6 12:09:15 2015 From: david at evcl.com (David Coale) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 09:09:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV testing In-Reply-To: References: <4027F342-FE7B-4E93-B0B0-BDA9BF82BC75@harvesthesun.com> <003301d0feca$9dce0d40$d96a27c0$@com> <012001d0fee6$138682e0$3a9388a0$@solarwindworks.com> <005DF62E48AD4243A9799A82161DC324@D8XG8YH1> <26679DFC-9C97-4950-970E-6C473A9490BE@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: An Isc test will not find a series resistance problem. You have to put a real load on the panel or string to find this type of problem. David On Oct 6, 2015, at 4:58 AM, Chris Mason wrote: > If you use the PV150 tester, it will do this test, giving you the Isc for each panel you test. The Isc should be the same for all panels given the same irradiance. It does all the other tests at the same time, and you can record the results to an Excel format report, including the irradiance at the moment of the test. > As you can string test, which will identify any strings with bad panels, I think this should be a minimum for any commissioning report. > > > On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 12:57 AM, David Coale wrote: > Hi Wrenchers, > > I have found on the older panels, especially the AstroPower line, the problems tend to be bad solder joints. This shows up as a series resistance. As such, the open circuit voltage and short circuit current will read good. It is not until you put an external load on the panel that you will see any problems. If you want to draw out a simple circuit with a voltage source, a current source and a series resister, you will see this quite clearly. > > On these older systems I am just looking for the few bad panels to be replaced or fixed (more info on fixing if requested). I am not looking to find the MPP output or the corrected performance of the panel with all the relevant parameters accounted for. A very easy way to do this is to just have one or two 50 watt 12 volt halogen bulbs as a load and measure voltage and current across each pane with this load. I try one bulb and then two bulbs in series and use whatever set up gives me the highest wattage reading and then use this load for the rest of the testing. Bad panels (AstroPower) tend to be 1/2 the output relative to the good panels, or almost no output at all depending on where the bad solder joint is. > > If you have a bunch of panels you can take down the measurements and then sort through them and get the best panels for your system (I have an excess of panels at this point). It is helpful to have an irradiance meter to make sure you are testing all the panels with about the same input for comparison. The panels of course have to have about the same angle to the sun and similar temp to make the comparison valid. I usually have the panels in the shade and then pull them out for testing so that the temp is all about the same. They can also be tested in place if you can access the leads for testing. > > I have built a tester with several bulbs and a toggle switch that will let you easily switch between Voc, Isc and with a load using two meters, one for voltage and one for current to make the readings at the same time. No fancy testers required for just finding the few bad panels. > > David > > On Oct 5, 2015, at 7:46 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > > > Bill, > > > > In the shop I have two electronic loads that I use nearly every day with batteries and PV modules. One is a programmable 150W, 360V that can be set for constant power, current or voltage (like this: http://www.amazon.com/Programmable-Electronic-Load-360VDC-CSI3710A/dp/B00D7QGSV4). It’s small enough to take to the field. The other is a 2kW model that I use for battery load and discharge testing. It’s too big to move. > > > > I also use the Daystar DS-05A (seen here: http://www.amazon.com/Daystar-DS-05A-Solar-Digital-Meter/dp/B00YVTXZJ4/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1444055204&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=Daystar+PV+irradiancePV) irradiance meter to calculate power by holding it in the same plane as the module to determine actual irradiance striking the surface. > > > > Another tool I use is a simple instant read, non contact infrared thermometer to check the cell temperature under test. > > > > With these tools and a little information, I can measure instant power and calculate module degradation. Others have suggested higher cost tools but these low cost tools have been reliable for many years. > > > > Larry > > > > On Oct 4, 2015, at 7:56 PM, frenergy wrote: > > > > Wrenches, > > > > As time passeth, we're bumping more into older PVs/arrays that have questionable outputs. After minimizing the variables (dust, temps, sun angle, wiring, expected deterioration with age, etc) and still coming up with low numbers. Testing individual PVs' Voc and Isc don't seem to tell the whole story as they often look good. > > > > Would not a definitive test be to wire a suspect PV to an inexpensive mppt CC (oxymoron?) and then to an orphaned battery. The battery would have to have a mondo (surplus) rheostat paralleled to it to maintain a steady voltage during the test. With appropriate metering in place, you would then have Vmmp and Immp as the rheostat is tweaked to hold a steady batt voltage and the CC finds the knee. > > > > Help me here. I know its a little spendy to cobble up but the value of nailing an offender might be worth it. Am I missing something? Is it common for inverters to fall off in output gradually? > > > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > -- > Chris Mason > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Design Engineer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > www.cometsolar.com > 264.235.5670 > 869.662.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Oct 6 12:54:23 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 10:54:23 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV testing In-Reply-To: References: <4027F342-FE7B-4E93-B0B0-BDA9BF82BC75@harvesthesun.com> <003301d0feca$9dce0d40$d96a27c0$@com> <012001d0fee6$138682e0$3a9388a0$@solarwindworks.com> <005DF62E48AD4243A9799A82161DC324@D8XG8YH1> <26679DFC-9C97-4950-970E-6C473A9490BE@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <5613FCBF.5090708@solarray.com> I agree, many module failures only show up under load. I just use a clamp on meter while the modules are still wired to the batteries. The PV150 can capture operating current and power as well, so it should be able to identify most module fails. I'm just not sure if it can do this without a load. I don't believe it's an actual IV tester. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 10/6/2015 10:09 AM, David Coale wrote: > An Isc test will not find a series resistance problem. You have to > put a real load on the panel or string to find this type of problem. > > David > > On Oct 6, 2015, at 4:58 AM, Chris Mason wrote: > >> If you use the PV150 tester, it will do this test, giving you the Isc >> for each panel you test. The Isc should be the same for all panels >> given the same irradiance. It does all the other tests at the same >> time, and you can record the results to an Excel format report, >> including the irradiance at the moment of the test. >> As you can string test, which will identify any strings with bad >> panels, I think this should be a minimum for any commissioning report. >> >> >> On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 12:57 AM, David Coale > > wrote: >> >> Hi Wrenchers, >> >> I have found on the older panels, especially the AstroPower line, >> the problems tend to be bad solder joints. This shows up as a >> series resistance. As such, the open circuit voltage and short >> circuit current will read good. It is not until you put an >> external load on the panel that you will see any problems. If >> you want to draw out a simple circuit with a voltage source, a >> current source and a series resister, you will see this quite >> clearly. >> >> On these older systems I am just looking for the few bad panels >> to be replaced or fixed (more info on fixing if requested). I am >> not looking to find the MPP output or the corrected performance >> of the panel with all the relevant parameters accounted for. A >> very easy way to do this is to just have one or two 50 watt 12 >> volt halogen bulbs as a load and measure voltage and current >> across each pane with this load. I try one bulb and then two >> bulbs in series and use whatever set up gives me the highest >> wattage reading and then use this load for the rest of the >> testing. Bad panels (AstroPower) tend to be 1/2 the output >> relative to the good panels, or almost no output at all depending >> on where the bad solder joint is. >> >> If you have a bunch of panels you can take down the measurements >> and then sort through them and get the best panels for your >> system (I have an excess of panels at this point). It is helpful >> to have an irradiance meter to make sure you are testing all the >> panels with about the same input for comparison. The panels of >> course have to have about the same angle to the sun and similar >> temp to make the comparison valid. I usually have the panels in >> the shade and then pull them out for testing so that the temp is >> all about the same. They can also be tested in place if you can >> access the leads for testing. >> >> I have built a tester with several bulbs and a toggle switch that >> will let you easily switch between Voc, Isc and with a load using >> two meters, one for voltage and one for current to make the >> readings at the same time. No fancy testers required for just >> finding the few bad panels. >> >> David >> >> On Oct 5, 2015, at 7:46 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: >> >> > Bill, >> > >> > In the shop I have two electronic loads that I use nearly every >> day with batteries and PV modules. One is a programmable 150W, >> 360V that can be set for constant power, current or voltage (like >> this: >> http://www.amazon.com/Programmable-Electronic-Load-360VDC-CSI3710A/dp/B00D7QGSV4). >> It’s small enough to take to the field. The other is a 2kW model >> that I use for battery load and discharge testing. It’s too big >> to move. >> > >> > I also use the Daystar DS-05A (seen here: >> http://www.amazon.com/Daystar-DS-05A-Solar-Digital-Meter/dp/B00YVTXZJ4/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1444055204&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=Daystar+PV+irradiancePV) >> irradiance meter to calculate power by holding it in the same >> plane as the module to determine actual irradiance striking the >> surface. >> > >> > Another tool I use is a simple instant read, non contact >> infrared thermometer to check the cell temperature under test. >> > >> > With these tools and a little information, I can measure >> instant power and calculate module degradation. Others have >> suggested higher cost tools but these low cost tools have been >> reliable for many years. >> > >> > Larry >> > >> > On Oct 4, 2015, at 7:56 PM, frenergy > > wrote: >> > >> > Wrenches, >> > >> > As time passeth, we're bumping more into older PVs/arrays >> that have questionable outputs. After minimizing the variables >> (dust, temps, sun angle, wiring, expected deterioration with age, >> etc) and still coming up with low numbers. Testing individual >> PVs' Voc and Isc don't seem to tell the whole story as they often >> look good. >> > >> > Would not a definitive test be to wire a suspect PV to an >> inexpensive mppt CC (oxymoron?) and then to an orphaned battery. >> The battery would have to have a mondo (surplus) rheostat >> paralleled to it to maintain a steady voltage during the test. >> With appropriate metering in place, you would then have Vmmp and >> Immp as the rheostat is tweaked to hold a steady batt voltage and >> the CC finds the knee. >> > >> > Help me here. I know its a little spendy to cobble up but >> the value of nailing an offender might be worth it. Am I missing >> something? Is it common for inverters to fall off in output >> gradually? >> > >> > Bill >> > Feather River Solar Electric >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Chris Mason >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installerâ„¢ >> Solar Design Engineer >> Generac Generators Industrial technician >> >> www.cometsolar.com >> 264.235.5670 >> 869.662.5670 >> Skype: netconcepts >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com Tue Oct 6 14:32:40 2015 From: jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com (James Rudolph) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 08:32:40 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Haticon Mid and Ends In-Reply-To: <561390E3.6040302@charter.net> References: <56133C53.106@solarray.com> <561390E3.6040302@charter.net> Message-ID: Aloha Bill, They tend to freeze up out here in the middle of the pacific once they sit for a few years. Mahalo Ray! On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 11:14 PM, Bill Loesch wrote: > > James, > Glad you received at least one potential source for product, so far. > With all due respect, why do you need to replace the clips? > Any take away for others so as to not have this same issue? > Thanks, > > -- > Bill Loesch > Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar314 631 1094 > > > > On 10/5/2015 10:13 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > > Contact S Flex in Denver > http://www.sflex.com/htdocs/index.php/us/contact-information > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 > > On 10/5/2015 7:37 PM, James Rudolph wrote: > > Aloha Wrenches, > Does anybody know where I can get Haticon mid and end clips? The lead time > with my distributors here is not feasible with my schedule. > > I believe we need 40mm and 31 mm ends. > > These are for old installs where the customer is re-roofing and we need to > remove and re-install the arrays. (Canadian Solar and SolarWorld modules) > > Mahalo, > > > * James B. Rudolph* > *Haleakala Solar* > *Director of Operations Oahu* > > *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155 * > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- > Bill Loesch > Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar314 631 1094 > > > > ------------------------------ > [image: Avast logo] > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- *James B. Rudolph* *Haleakala Solar* *Director of Construction* *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Oct 6 15:20:52 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 13:20:52 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Haticon Mid and Ends In-Reply-To: References: <56133C53.106@solarray.com> <561390E3.6040302@charter.net> Message-ID: <56141F14.9090308@solarray.com> They need anti-seize lube on the threads. Also, I would not use power tool/ impact drivers to tighten them, they not only can over torque them, they spin too fast which causes the bolt threads to gall. Check with S Flex, I believe they are using a coating on their hardware now that alleviates the galling. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 10/6/2015 12:32 PM, James Rudolph wrote: > Aloha Bill, > They tend to freeze up out here in the middle of the pacific once they > sit for a few years. > > Mahalo Ray! > > On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 11:14 PM, Bill Loesch > wrote: > > > James, > Glad you received at least one potential source for product, so far. > With all due respect, why do you need to replace the clips? > Any take away for others so as to not have this same issue? > Thanks, > > -- > Bill Loesch > Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar > 314 631 1094 > > > > On 10/5/2015 10:13 PM, Ray Walters wrote: >> Contact S Flex in Denver >> http://www.sflex.com/htdocs/index.php/us/contact-information >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> On 10/5/2015 7:37 PM, James Rudolph wrote: >>> Aloha Wrenches, >>> Does anybody know where I can get Haticon mid and end clips? The >>> lead time with my distributors here is not feasible with my >>> schedule. >>> >>> I believe we need 40mm and 31 mm ends. >>> >>> These are for old installs where the customer is re-roofing and >>> we need to remove and re-install the arrays. (Canadian Solar and >>> SolarWorld modules) >>> >>> Mahalo, >>> >>> * >>> James B. Rudolph* >>> *Haleakala Solar* * >>> * >>> *Director of Operations Oahu* >>> *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155 >>> * >>> * >>> * >>> * >>> * >>> >>> * >>> * >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > -- > Bill Loesch > Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar > 314 631 1094 > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Avast logo > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > -- > * > James B. Rudolph* > *Haleakala Solar* * > * > *Director of Construction* > *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155 > * > * > * > * > * > > * > * > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Oct 6 16:14:53 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 14:14:53 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DPW Rack Problems Message-ID: <56142BBD.1000206@solarray.com> Greetings All; I have used DP&W's top of pole racks for 20 years, but I've had my share of trouble, too. First the lead times are horrible, sometimes pushing 2 months. Second, the cost is approaching the cost of the modules, especially for high wind ratings. Third, they just can't seem to wait till the paint is dry to pack the racks. Several times I've had to sand and repaint the main strong back, because foam, paper, or plastic wrap had stuck to the paint. This last time was the worst, and I was offered $50 for my troubles and embarrassment in front of the customer. They said I should have shipped it back. How much sense does that make: round trip freight shipping, and 2 more weeks lost? Here's a page of the manual completely stuck in the paint: Come on DP&W, you guys used to stand by your work. -- R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: egjiccjh.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 79590 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solarworks at gmail.com Tue Oct 6 16:22:41 2015 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal Khalsa) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 13:22:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DPW Rack Problems In-Reply-To: <56142BBD.1000206@solarray.com> References: <56142BBD.1000206@solarray.com> Message-ID: Ray....We have had the same problems....But we didn't get offered the $50 for our time and labor..... We called and complained...it seemed on deaf ears..... Also....They advertise pre -antiseized bolts on some of their racking....but it is certainly not so with their top of pole racks.....Some times the gimble bolts have anti seize and and sometimes not.....lack of consistency is a head ache.... We are exploring alternatives.. Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-218-0201 m 541-299-0402 o On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 1:14 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > Greetings All; > > I have used DP&W's top of pole racks for 20 years, but I've had my share > of trouble, too. > First the lead times are horrible, sometimes pushing 2 months. > Second, the cost is approaching the cost of the modules, especially for > high wind ratings. > Third, they just can't seem to wait till the paint is dry to pack the > racks. > Several times I've had to sand and repaint the main strong back, because > foam, paper, or plastic wrap had stuck to the paint. > This last time was the worst, and I was offered $50 for my troubles and > embarrassment in front of the customer. > They said I should have shipped it back. How much sense does that make: > round trip freight shipping, and 2 more weeks lost? > Here's a page of the manual completely stuck in the paint: > > > Come on DP&W, you guys used to stand by your work. > > -- > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: egjiccjh.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 79590 bytes Desc: not available URL: From howie at suncatchervt.com Tue Oct 6 17:59:22 2015 From: howie at suncatchervt.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 17:59:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DPW Rack Problems In-Reply-To: References: <56142BBD.1000206@solarray.com> Message-ID: These have all been a long standing problem for us as well, getting regularly worse! Howie On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 4:22 PM, Kirpal Khalsa wrote: > Ray....We have had the same problems....But we didn't get offered the $50 > for our time and labor..... > We called and complained...it seemed on deaf ears..... > Also....They advertise pre -antiseized bolts on some of their > racking....but it is certainly not so with their top of pole racks.....Some > times the gimble bolts have anti seize and and sometimes not.....lack of > consistency is a head ache.... > We are exploring alternatives.. > > Sunny Regards, > Kirpal Khalsa > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Oregon Solarworks LLC > www.oregonsolarworks.com > 541-218-0201 m > 541-299-0402 o > > On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 1:14 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > >> Greetings All; >> >> I have used DP&W's top of pole racks for 20 years, but I've had my share >> of trouble, too. >> First the lead times are horrible, sometimes pushing 2 months. >> Second, the cost is approaching the cost of the modules, especially for >> high wind ratings. >> Third, they just can't seem to wait till the paint is dry to pack the >> racks. >> Several times I've had to sand and repaint the main strong back, because >> foam, paper, or plastic wrap had stuck to the paint. >> This last time was the worst, and I was offered $50 for my troubles and >> embarrassment in front of the customer. >> They said I should have shipped it back. How much sense does that make: >> round trip freight shipping, and 2 more weeks lost? >> Here's a page of the manual completely stuck in the paint: >> >> >> Come on DP&W, you guys used to stand by your work. >> >> -- >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Tue Oct 6 21:02:42 2015 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Shasta Daiku) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 18:02:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DPW Rack Problems In-Reply-To: References: <56142BBD.1000206@solarray.com> Message-ID: Glad it’s not just me. My supplier jokes that I have bad TPM karma. 5 of the last 6 racks had major problems that shut my projects down until replacements could be made and sent. Snotty customer service too. It’s a bummer since I’ve been using their racks since their beginning. Michael Morningstar > On Oct 6, 2015, at 2:59 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: > > These have all been a long standing problem for us as well, getting regularly worse!ut > > Howie > > On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 4:22 PM, Kirpal Khalsa > wrote: > Ray....We have had the same problems....But we didn't get offered the $50 for our time and labor..... > We called and complained...it seemed on deaf ears..... > Also....They advertise pre -antiseized bolts on some of their racking....but it is certainly not so with their top of pole racks.....Some times the gimble bolts have anti seize and and sometimes not.....lack of consistency is a head ache.... > We are exploring alternatives.. > > Sunny Regards, > Kirpal Khalsa > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Oregon Solarworks LLC > www.oregonsolarworks.com > 541-218-0201 m > 541-299-0402 o > > On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 1:14 PM, Ray Walters > wrote: > Greetings All; > > I have used DP&W's top of pole racks for 20 years, but I've had my share of trouble, too. > First the lead times are horrible, sometimes pushing 2 months. > Second, the cost is approaching the cost of the modules, especially for high wind ratings. > Third, they just can't seem to wait till the paint is dry to pack the racks. > Several times I've had to sand and repaint the main strong back, because foam, paper, or plastic wrap had stuck to the paint. > This last time was the worst, and I was offered $50 for my troubles and embarrassment in front of the customer. > They said I should have shipped it back. How much sense does that make: round trip freight shipping, and 2 more weeks lost? > Here's a page of the manual completely stuck in the paint: > > > Come on DP&W, you guys used to stand by your work. > -- > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Oct 7 09:13:56 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 07:13:56 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DPW Rack Problems In-Reply-To: References: <56142BBD.1000206@solarray.com> Message-ID: <6D200692-73D3-4A63-8951-CE6C1ADB2B01@gmail.com> I might suggest: General specialties http://www.generalspecialtiesmfg.com or MT solar https://www.polemount.solar jay > On Oct 6, 2015, at 7:02 PM, Shasta Daiku wrote: > > Glad it’s not just me. My supplier jokes that I have bad TPM karma. 5 of the last 6 racks had major problems that shut my projects down until replacements could be made and sent. Snotty customer service too. It’s a bummer since I’ve been using their racks since their beginning. > > Michael Morningstar > >> On Oct 6, 2015, at 2:59 PM, Howie Michaelson > wrote: >> >> These have all been a long standing problem for us as well, getting regularly worse!ut >> >> Howie >> >> On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 4:22 PM, Kirpal Khalsa > wrote: >> Ray....We have had the same problems....But we didn't get offered the $50 for our time and labor..... >> We called and complained...it seemed on deaf ears..... >> Also....They advertise pre -antiseized bolts on some of their racking....but it is certainly not so with their top of pole racks.....Some times the gimble bolts have anti seize and and sometimes not.....lack of consistency is a head ache.... >> We are exploring alternatives.. >> >> Sunny Regards, >> Kirpal Khalsa >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> Oregon Solarworks LLC >> www.oregonsolarworks.com >> 541-218-0201 m >> 541-299-0402 o >> >> On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 1:14 PM, Ray Walters > wrote: >> Greetings All; >> >> I have used DP&W's top of pole racks for 20 years, but I've had my share of trouble, too. >> First the lead times are horrible, sometimes pushing 2 months. >> Second, the cost is approaching the cost of the modules, especially for high wind ratings. >> Third, they just can't seem to wait till the paint is dry to pack the racks. >> Several times I've had to sand and repaint the main strong back, because foam, paper, or plastic wrap had stuck to the paint. >> This last time was the worst, and I was offered $50 for my troubles and embarrassment in front of the customer. >> They said I should have shipped it back. How much sense does that make: round trip freight shipping, and 2 more weeks lost? >> Here's a page of the manual completely stuck in the paint: >> >> >> Come on DP&W, you guys used to stand by your work. >> -- >> R.Ray Walters >> CTO, Solarray, Inc >> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, >> Licensed Master Electrician >> Solar Design Engineer >> 303 505-8760 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Wed Oct 7 11:21:42 2015 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 09:21:42 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC conduit with AC secondary? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Adam, My Canadian Electrical Code requires "separation" between conductors of different "systems". I believe the NEC is the same/similar. You may notice a flimsy (yet stiff) paper(?) barrier between the AC and DC wiring areas in some AC/DC inverter disconnect enclosures.... assume this is sufficient as the inverter (should be) certified as such. In a raceway or "gutter" box, i've been given the ok from electrical inspectors to bundle and keep the AC and DC wire bundles separate from each other. In a trench, since you are running separate conduits, that could be sufficient, otherwise the separation could easily be a layer of dirt or perhaps a pressure treated plank. Good Luck. *Benn Kilburn * Partner, CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc 6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7 M: 780-906-7807 P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com [image: email] [image: facebook] [image: twitter] [image: linkedin] [image: google] [image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal] On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 8:45 AM, AE Solar wrote: > Wrenchers, > Anyone know of code violations associated with running DC conduit in the > same trench as conduit for AC secondary? Is that allowed? Bad practice even > if allowed?Thanks > Adam > > Adam Katzman > Autonomous Energies > 4872 State Route 9G > Germantown NY, 12526 > www.autonomousenergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Wed Oct 7 11:24:21 2015 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 11:24:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC conduit with AC secondary? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Do you mean underground trenches? If so, we run 15kV, 480V and telephone in the same trench, with water next door. On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 10:45 AM, AE Solar wrote: > Wrenchers, > Anyone know of code violations associated with running DC conduit in the > same trench as conduit for AC secondary? Is that allowed? Bad practice even > if allowed?Thanks > Adam > > Adam Katzman > Autonomous Energies > 4872 State Route 9G > Germantown NY, 12526 > www.autonomousenergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dyoung at dovetailsolar.com Wed Oct 7 12:04:09 2015 From: dyoung at dovetailsolar.com (Daniel Young) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 12:04:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC conduit with AC secondary? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007c01d10119$ccf0ac30$66d20490$@com> Having DC and AC in the same trench (but in separate conduits) is acceptable in the NEC, the conduit itself is all the separation required by the NEC. That being said, I would also not worry about twisting DC wires or ensuring any special distance between conduits based on concerns of electro-magnetic noise between conductors. If you are talking about a system with a third party arc fault detection/interruption system (like AFCI combiners, not a string inverter with built in AFCI). I have not run into it yet, but I have heard that the third party AFCI combiners are known to nuisance trip due to noise in the wires (mostly from the inverter is what I’ve been told). So anything you can reasonably do to prevent more noise in the DC side of things, why not do it. I would not go so far as to try to twist a set of 3/0 copper conductors in a 200’ conduit pull though J I’d rather just bump my conduits up one trade size across the board to push my wires farther apart. Since EMF’s decay in strength by the square of the distance (2x the distance equals ¼ the emf) just upping the PVC conduit sizes makes it simple to significantly reduce any potential emf. All the above is moot though if we’re talking small wire/currents. Generally most people don’t think about separating AC and DC conduits in a trench, and I have not yet heard of an instance where it has caused a problem. I over think most things, just to sit back and bring myself back to planet earth where I say “ Put AC and DC in separate conduits, try to keep them separate in the trench if you can do so easily, then bury it and walk away”. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Benn Kilburn Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2015 11:22 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] DC conduit with AC secondary? Adam, My Canadian Electrical Code requires "separation" between conductors of different "systems". I believe the NEC is the same/similar. You may notice a flimsy (yet stiff) paper(?) barrier between the AC and DC wiring areas in some AC/DC inverter disconnect enclosures.... assume this is sufficient as the inverter (should be) certified as such. In a raceway or "gutter" box, i've been given the ok from electrical inspectors to bundle and keep the AC and DC wire bundles separate from each other. In a trench, since you are running separate conduits, that could be sufficient, otherwise the separation could easily be a layer of dirt or perhaps a pressure treated plank. Good Luck. Benn Kilburn Partner, CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc 6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7 M: 780-906-7807 P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com email facebook twitter linkedin google SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 8:45 AM, AE Solar wrote: Wrenchers, Anyone know of code violations associated with running DC conduit in the same trench as conduit for AC secondary? Is that allowed? Bad practice even if allowed?Thanks Adam Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies 4872 State Route 9G Germantown NY, 12526 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6140 / Virus Database: 4435/10774 - Release Date: 10/07/15 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Wed Oct 7 15:17:03 2015 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 12:17:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] DPW Rack Problems In-Reply-To: <56142BBD.1000206@solarray.com> References: <56142BBD.1000206@solarray.com> Message-ID: <1444245423.246313820@webmail.finestplanet.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 0715031115a small.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 48767 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: part1.04020704.06070104 Type: image/jpeg Size: 79590 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Wed Oct 7 16:20:16 2015 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 14:20:16 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DPW Rack Problems In-Reply-To: <1444245423.246313820@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <56142BBD.1000206@solarray.com> <1444245423.246313820@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: <8B41B49B-7BB7-46DB-9E19-C658C9B03301@gmail.com> These paint and fit issues have our experience as well. The last DP&W rack I took delivery of had every single piece of paper and foam packing material stuck in the paint. Even after careful cleaning it was still a mess. That kind of stuff and the ridiculous lead times are really making me want to look elsewhere, despite the fact that I think they still make a good product. -Luke NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 CoSEIA Certified PV Installer Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO 81144 sgsrenewables at gmail.com 719.588.3044 www.sgsrenewables.com > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Wed Oct 7 19:51:51 2015 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2015 16:51:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DPW Rack Problems In-Reply-To: <8B41B49B-7BB7-46DB-9E19-C658C9B03301@gmail.com> References: <56142BBD.1000206@solarray.com> <1444245423.246313820@webmail.finestplanet.com> <8B41B49B-7BB7-46DB-9E19-C658C9B03301@gmail.com> Message-ID: <162052.90068.bm@smtp119.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I have had off-list contact with DPW, and I've been asked to post the following for them. If you have questions about my posting this on their behalf, contact me off list. Thanks. Thank you for alerting us to the problems you recently encountered with the paint used in our TPMs. It is our intent to respond to customers' concerns to maintain your trust and support. We recently had a problem when a supplier discontinued a paint we've used since the inception of our TPM product line. After testing multiple formulations over the course of several weeks we were able to source a silver paint comparable to the original and now have that paint problem resolved. As to lead time issues we are working with our distributor partners to move orders more quickly through their internal processes. We extend our apologies for the inconvenience this paint problem has caused. Please contact me personally with any questions or concerns. I may be reached at schumachers at directpower.com or at 505-889-3585. Steve Schumacher, DPW Solar, National Sales Manager From howie at suncatchervt.com Wed Oct 7 21:14:40 2015 From: howie at suncatchervt.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 21:14:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DPW Rack Problems In-Reply-To: <162052.90068.bm@smtp119.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <56142BBD.1000206@solarray.com> <1444245423.246313820@webmail.finestplanet.com> <8B41B49B-7BB7-46DB-9E19-C658C9B03301@gmail.com> <162052.90068.bm@smtp119.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks Michael for the communication conduit. While I appreciate DP&W's effort to address the issues raised, I don't feel their response really speaks to the issues - for us, these are long standing problems, although they appear to possibly be getting worse more recently. More importantly, for me this is one of the most valuable aspects of this list - the power of the group to garner a manufacturer's attention in order to address a problem (think warranty replacement issues, or equipment failure rates) or make an improvement. For instance, if a ground mount racking manufacturer developed a functional, code compliant wire management system, I would expect to hear about it first on this list, get highly useful evaluations of the innovation, and then watch the sales of that system take off due to the "viral" nature of information shared on this list. If there are any racking manu reps that still read this list, perhaps they could take the ball and run with it. One can dream... Howie Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Catamount Solar Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner http://www.CatamountSolar.com 802-272-0004 On Oct 7, 2015 7:51 PM, "Michael Welch" wrote: > I have had off-list contact with DPW, and I've been asked to post the > following for them. If you have questions about my posting this on their > behalf, contact me off list. > > Thanks. > > Thank you for alerting us to the problems you recently encountered with > the paint used in our TPMs. It is our intent to respond to customers' > concerns to maintain your trust and support. We recently had a problem > when a supplier discontinued a paint we've used since the inception of our > TPM product line. After testing multiple formulations over the course of > several weeks we were able to source a silver paint comparable to the > original and now have that paint problem resolved. As to lead time issues > we are working with our distributor partners to move orders more quickly > through their internal processes. We extend our apologies for the > inconvenience this paint problem has caused. Please contact me personally > with any questions or concerns. I may be reached at > schumachers at directpower.com or at 505-889-3585. Steve Schumacher, DPW > Solar, National Sales Manager > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Thu Oct 8 00:51:23 2015 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 04:51:23 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DPW Rack Problems In-Reply-To: <56142BBD.1000206@solarray.com> References: <56142BBD.1000206@solarray.com> Message-ID: <1a15c5648f634481a88baed8d39b3738@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> We've taken delivery & installed several 4 or 6 panel top of pole mounts this year, and they have all been perfect condition. Our difference is we purchase them from a company based in Ontario, Canada that has rights to reproduce the product, not entirely sure myself how that works, but the quality has been good from our experience. Lead time could be better but seems around 1 month. http://www.preformed.on.ca/ Kevin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: October-06-15 1:15 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] DPW Rack Problems Greetings All; I have used DP&W's top of pole racks for 20 years, but I've had my share of trouble, too. First the lead times are horrible, sometimes pushing 2 months. Second, the cost is approaching the cost of the modules, especially for high wind ratings. Third, they just can't seem to wait till the paint is dry to pack the racks. Several times I've had to sand and repaint the main strong back, because foam, paper, or plastic wrap had stuck to the paint. This last time was the worst, and I was offered $50 for my troubles and embarrassment in front of the customer. They said I should have shipped it back. How much sense does that make: round trip freight shipping, and 2 more weeks lost? Here's a page of the manual completely stuck in the paint: [cid:image001.jpg at 01D1014A.4DF2CAE0] Come on DP&W, you guys used to stand by your work. -- R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 79590 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Oct 8 03:13:38 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 00:13:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DPW Rack Problems In-Reply-To: References: <56142BBD.1000206@solarray.com> <1444245423.246313820@webmail.finestplanet.com> <8B41B49B-7BB7-46DB-9E19-C658C9B03301@gmail.com> <162052.90068.bm@smtp119.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <994e78679cc99fce45c76f15bf4ab47d@mail.gmail.com> Howie: At one time I shared your dream: that if only the manufacturer’s would build wire management and shielding systems, consumers would flock to buy them. I asked DPW to help me develop some wire shielding hardware and Steve Schumacher was willing to give it a try. See this link for some pictures of the system Schu helped us develop. Unfortunately, I was one of the few people that ever asked for this product, and there was no reason for DPW to put any more energy into the idea. Over time I came to realize that what is hindering the development of better wire management and wire shielding systems is not the lack of manufacturers building the systems-- it is due to the lack of demand for them in the market. Wire management and shielding systems will add to the cost of any installation. If installers can get away without using these systems, why should they bother? They get by without them because building officials are all too often ignorant and lazy. I have tried and tried to convince the officials in the county in which I live to read the black and white of the current NEC but they refuse. Most of the inspections of my work by building officials last less than 2 minutes. When I ask inspectors and plan checkers questions about codes and practices I usually get quizzical stares. The engineers at DPW know what the code requires for wire shielding: they can read and I have highlighted the requirements many times. DPW was willing to experiment, but apparently no one asked to buy these systems so there was no reason to put them in the catalog. I have had my problems with the DPW painted parts for years. It is not a new problem. Hopefully with the attention they are getting this will be resolved. I have also waited way too long for even the most minor parts orders. This needs to improve. How hard can it be to put a few dozen bolts in a box? Why should it take almost two weeks? They need to fix the paint and get parts and assemblies out the door in a reasonable time. I must say, however, that DPW has provided a very consistently good range of products over the years and they have been more responsive than 99% of the manufacturers out there. I am still a fan of DPW. Sincerely, William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Howie Michaelson *Sent:* Wednesday, October 07, 2015 6:15 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] DPW Rack Problems Thanks Michael for the communication conduit. While I appreciate DP&W's effort to address the issues raised, I don't feel their response really speaks to the issues - for us, these are long standing problems, although they appear to possibly be getting worse more recently. More importantly, for me this is one of the most valuable aspects of this list - the power of the group to garner a manufacturer's attention in order to address a problem (think warranty replacement issues, or equipment failure rates) or make an improvement. For instance, if a ground mount racking manufacturer developed a functional, code compliant wire management system, I would expect to hear about it first on this list, get highly useful evaluations of the innovation, and then watch the sales of that system take off due to the "viral" nature of information shared on this list. If there are any racking manu reps that still read this list, perhaps they could take the ball and run with it. One can dream... Howie Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Catamount Solar Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner http://www.CatamountSolar.com 802-272-0004 On Oct 7, 2015 7:51 PM, "Michael Welch" wrote: I have had off-list contact with DPW, and I've been asked to post the following for them. If you have questions about my posting this on their behalf, contact me off list. Thanks. Thank you for alerting us to the problems you recently encountered with the paint used in our TPMs. It is our intent to respond to customers' concerns to maintain your trust and support. We recently had a problem when a supplier discontinued a paint we've used since the inception of our TPM product line. After testing multiple formulations over the course of several weeks we were able to source a silver paint comparable to the original and now have that paint problem resolved. As to lead time issues we are working with our distributor partners to move orders more quickly through their internal processes. We extend our apologies for the inconvenience this paint problem has caused. Please contact me personally with any questions or concerns. I may be reached at schumachers at directpower.com or at 505-889-3585. Steve Schumacher, DPW Solar, National Sales Manager _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From William.White at rgsenergy.com Thu Oct 8 08:29:15 2015 From: William.White at rgsenergy.com (Will White) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 12:29:15 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DPW Rack Problems In-Reply-To: <1444245423.246313820@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <56142BBD.1000206@solarray.com> <1444245423.246313820@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: I’ve also seen them with the gimbal “ears” welded crooked so the array was tilted. Another somewhat common error is the plate to adjust the array angle that’s welded to the back of the strong back was in the wrong place. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of toddcory at finestplanet.com Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2015 3:17 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] DPW Rack Problems the last rack i ordered came with the gimbel's "ears" welded too close together for the strongback to fit between them. i thought... "wtf, how'd they miss this??" todd [cid:image001.jpg at 01D101A3.693C1FA0] On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 1:14pm, "Ray Walters" > said: Greetings All; I have used DP&W's top of pole racks for 20 years, but I've had my share of trouble, too. First the lead times are horrible, sometimes pushing 2 months. Second, the cost is approaching the cost of the modules, especially for high wind ratings. Third, they just can't seem to wait till the paint is dry to pack the racks. Several times I've had to sand and repaint the main strong back, because foam, paper, or plastic wrap had stuck to the paint. This last time was the worst, and I was offered $50 for my troubles and embarrassment in front of the customer. They said I should have shipped it back. How much sense does that make: round trip freight shipping, and 2 more weeks lost? Here's a page of the manual completely stuck in the paint: [cid:image002.jpg at 01D101A3.693C1FA0] Come on DP&W, you guys used to stand by your work. -- R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 48767 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 79590 bytes Desc: image002.jpg URL: From William.White at rgsenergy.com Thu Oct 8 08:35:11 2015 From: William.White at rgsenergy.com (Will White) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 12:35:11 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DPW Rack Problems In-Reply-To: <994e78679cc99fce45c76f15bf4ab47d@mail.gmail.com> References: <56142BBD.1000206@solarray.com> <1444245423.246313820@webmail.finestplanet.com> <8B41B49B-7BB7-46DB-9E19-C658C9B03301@gmail.com> <162052.90068.bm@smtp119.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <994e78679cc99fce45c76f15bf4ab47d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I second the last paragraph. Even though we’ve had issues with DP&W I still like their product. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 3:14 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] DPW Rack Problems Howie: At one time I shared your dream: that if only the manufacturer’s would build wire management and shielding systems, consumers would flock to buy them. I asked DPW to help me develop some wire shielding hardware and Steve Schumacher was willing to give it a try. See this link for some pictures of the system Schu helped us develop. Unfortunately, I was one of the few people that ever asked for this product, and there was no reason for DPW to put any more energy into the idea. Over time I came to realize that what is hindering the development of better wire management and wire shielding systems is not the lack of manufacturers building the systems-- it is due to the lack of demand for them in the market. Wire management and shielding systems will add to the cost of any installation. If installers can get away without using these systems, why should they bother? They get by without them because building officials are all too often ignorant and lazy. I have tried and tried to convince the officials in the county in which I live to read the black and white of the current NEC but they refuse. Most of the inspections of my work by building officials last less than 2 minutes. When I ask inspectors and plan checkers questions about codes and practices I usually get quizzical stares. The engineers at DPW know what the code requires for wire shielding: they can read and I have highlighted the requirements many times. DPW was willing to experiment, but apparently no one asked to buy these systems so there was no reason to put them in the catalog. I have had my problems with the DPW painted parts for years. It is not a new problem. Hopefully with the attention they are getting this will be resolved. I have also waited way too long for even the most minor parts orders. This needs to improve. How hard can it be to put a few dozen bolts in a box? Why should it take almost two weeks? They need to fix the paint and get parts and assemblies out the door in a reasonable time. I must say, however, that DPW has provided a very consistently good range of products over the years and they have been more responsive than 99% of the manufacturers out there. I am still a fan of DPW. Sincerely, William Miller [Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Howie Michaelson Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2015 6:15 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] DPW Rack Problems Thanks Michael for the communication conduit. While I appreciate DP&W's effort to address the issues raised, I don't feel their response really speaks to the issues - for us, these are long standing problems, although they appear to possibly be getting worse more recently. More importantly, for me this is one of the most valuable aspects of this list - the power of the group to garner a manufacturer's attention in order to address a problem (think warranty replacement issues, or equipment failure rates) or make an improvement. For instance, if a ground mount racking manufacturer developed a functional, code compliant wire management system, I would expect to hear about it first on this list, get highly useful evaluations of the innovation, and then watch the sales of that system take off due to the "viral" nature of information shared on this list. If there are any racking manu reps that still read this list, perhaps they could take the ball and run with it. One can dream... Howie Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Catamount Solar Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner http://www.CatamountSolar.com 802-272-0004 On Oct 7, 2015 7:51 PM, "Michael Welch" > wrote: I have had off-list contact with DPW, and I've been asked to post the following for them. If you have questions about my posting this on their behalf, contact me off list. Thanks. Thank you for alerting us to the problems you recently encountered with the paint used in our TPMs. It is our intent to respond to customers' concerns to maintain your trust and support. We recently had a problem when a supplier discontinued a paint we've used since the inception of our TPM product line. After testing multiple formulations over the course of several weeks we were able to source a silver paint comparable to the original and now have that paint problem resolved. As to lead time issues we are working with our distributor partners to move orders more quickly through their internal processes. We extend our apologies for the inconvenience this paint problem has caused. Please contact me personally with any questions or concerns. I may be reached at schumachers at directpower.com or at 505-889-3585. Steve Schumacher, DPW Solar, National Sales Manager _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From howie at suncatchervt.com Thu Oct 8 10:03:57 2015 From: howie at suncatchervt.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 10:03:57 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DPW Rack Problems In-Reply-To: <994e78679cc99fce45c76f15bf4ab47d@mail.gmail.com> References: <56142BBD.1000206@solarray.com> <1444245423.246313820@webmail.finestplanet.com> <8B41B49B-7BB7-46DB-9E19-C658C9B03301@gmail.com> <162052.90068.bm@smtp119.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <994e78679cc99fce45c76f15bf4ab47d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: William, I have followed your posts over the years and appreciate the efforts you have made in developing and then your willingness to share them with the list. Thank you. If DP&W had wire management products available, it never reached my radar, although admittedly I never asked them either. We would definitely consider passing more for that added value. I too appreciate the robustness of their TPM product, especially compared to the old Unirac TPM that we started out with and watched get blown apart more than once. However, I think we would benefit from a more competitive market, which would hopefully help drive better product to installers and thereby customers. Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Catamount Solar Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner http://www.CatamountSolar.com 802-272-0004 On Oct 8, 2015 3:13 AM, "William Miller" wrote: > Howie: > > > > At one time I shared your dream: that if only the manufacturer’s would > build wire management and shielding systems, consumers would flock to buy > them. I asked DPW to help me develop some wire shielding hardware and > Steve Schumacher was willing to give it a try. See this link > > for some pictures of the system Schu helped us develop. Unfortunately, I > was one of the few people that ever asked for this product, and there was > no reason for DPW to put any more energy into the idea. > > > > Over time I came to realize that what is hindering the development of > better wire management and wire shielding systems is not the lack of > manufacturers building the systems-- it is due to the lack of demand for > them in the market. Wire management and shielding systems will add to the > cost of any installation. If installers can get away without using these > systems, why should they bother? > > > > They get by without them because building officials are all too often > ignorant and lazy. I have tried and tried to convince the officials in the > county in which I live to read the black and white of the current NEC but > they refuse. Most of the inspections of my work by building officials last > less than 2 minutes. When I ask inspectors and plan checkers questions > about codes and practices I usually get quizzical stares. > > > > The engineers at DPW know what the code requires for wire shielding: they > can read and I have highlighted the requirements many times. DPW was > willing to experiment, but apparently no one asked to buy these systems so > there was no reason to put them in the catalog. > > > > I have had my problems with the DPW painted parts for years. It is not a > new problem. Hopefully with the attention they are getting this will be > resolved. I have also waited way too long for even the most minor parts > orders. This needs to improve. How hard can it be to put a few dozen > bolts in a box? Why should it take almost two weeks? They need to fix the > paint and get parts and assemblies out the door in a reasonable time. > > > > I must say, however, that DPW has provided a very consistently good range > of products over the years and they have been more responsive than 99% of > the manufacturers out there. I am still a fan of DPW. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > William Miller > > > > > > [image: Gradient Cap_mini] > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Howie Michaelson > *Sent:* Wednesday, October 07, 2015 6:15 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] DPW Rack Problems > > > > Thanks Michael for the communication conduit. > > While I appreciate DP&W's effort to address the issues raised, I don't > feel their response really speaks to the issues - for us, these are long > standing problems, although they appear to possibly be getting worse more > recently. > > More importantly, for me this is one of the most valuable aspects of this > list - the power of the group to garner a manufacturer's attention in order > to address a problem (think warranty replacement issues, or equipment > failure rates) or make an improvement. > > For instance, if a ground mount racking manufacturer developed a > functional, code compliant wire management system, I would expect to hear > about it first on this list, get highly useful evaluations of the > innovation, and then watch the sales of that system take off due to the > "viral" nature of information shared on this list. If there are any racking > manu reps that still read this list, perhaps they could take the ball and > run with it. One can dream... > > Howie > > Howie Michaelson > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > > Catamount Solar > Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service > VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner > http://www.CatamountSolar.com > 802-272-0004 > > On Oct 7, 2015 7:51 PM, "Michael Welch" > wrote: > > I have had off-list contact with DPW, and I've been asked to post the > following for them. If you have questions about my posting this on their > behalf, contact me off list. > > Thanks. > > Thank you for alerting us to the problems you recently encountered with > the paint used in our TPMs. It is our intent to respond to customers' > concerns to maintain your trust and support. We recently had a problem > when a supplier discontinued a paint we've used since the inception of our > TPM product line. After testing multiple formulations over the course of > several weeks we were able to source a silver paint comparable to the > original and now have that paint problem resolved. As to lead time issues > we are working with our distributor partners to move orders more quickly > through their internal processes. We extend our apologies for the > inconvenience this paint problem has caused. Please contact me personally > with any questions or concerns. I may be reached at > schumachers at directpower.com or at 505-889-3585. Steve Schumacher, DPW > Solar, National Sales Manager > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solarworks at gmail.com Thu Oct 8 10:38:20 2015 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal Khalsa) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 07:38:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DPW Rack Problems In-Reply-To: References: <56142BBD.1000206@solarray.com> <1444245423.246313820@webmail.finestplanet.com> <8B41B49B-7BB7-46DB-9E19-C658C9B03301@gmail.com> <162052.90068.bm@smtp119.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <994e78679cc99fce45c76f15bf4ab47d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Wrenches.....We have used the DPW products, primarily their top of pole racks for years....we have well over a hundred of the racks installed....We love their simplicity, and ease of assembly....We have never once had a problem with an installed rack....never had a failure of any kind....We appreciate the fact that they supply extra hardware with each shipment.....Inevitably we drop parts and a few extras are always appreciated..... For us it is the details...We get comfortable installing something we have done many many times....we are able to predict our pace and therefore we can give our customers accurate bids which leave us not over bidding or under bidding....Changes are sometimes necessary and a result of innovation or improvements....Its the communication which sometimes lags....knowledge is power....When we know we are going to be dealing with some change it is easier for us to predict and anticipate changes to our habits....and therefore planning as well....predictability is our friend!!! Our recent experiences have left us a bit disgruntled....while the quality of the installed DPW racks has not changed or degraded we have been left with carrying the extra burden of some of the changes....I am glad to ehar the new paint is going to be new again...Hopefully it will not have the same issues with regards to the packaging sticking to the wet(ish) paint and leaving us with a headache of trying to figure out how to clean off imprints of paper, styrafoam and shrink wrap off of the strong back.... DPW has been a great partner over the years....Growing pains affect us all....Sometimes they are more noticable than others.... Communication is key!!! I will likely continue to use their top of pole racks, as I haven't found any better options.... I value the effect this list has on maintaining the pressure on manufacturers to be responsive to us installers who are on the front lines of making their products fit into the market place....We all have our areas of expertise....and each step is important.....I for one am not interested in becoming a racking manufacturer!!! Cheers.... Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-218-0201 m 541-299-0402 o On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 7:03 AM, Howie Michaelson wrote: > William, > I have followed your posts over the years and appreciate the efforts you > have made in developing and then your willingness to share them with the > list. Thank you. > > If DP&W had wire management products available, it never reached my radar, > although admittedly I never asked them either. We would definitely consider > passing more for that added value. > > I too appreciate the robustness of their TPM product, especially compared > to the old Unirac TPM that we started out with and watched get blown apart > more than once. However, I think we would benefit from a more competitive > market, which would hopefully help drive better product to installers and > thereby customers. > > Howie Michaelson > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > > Catamount Solar > Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service > VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner > http://www.CatamountSolar.com > 802-272-0004 > On Oct 8, 2015 3:13 AM, "William Miller" wrote: > >> Howie: >> >> >> >> At one time I shared your dream: that if only the manufacturer’s would >> build wire management and shielding systems, consumers would flock to buy >> them. I asked DPW to help me develop some wire shielding hardware and >> Steve Schumacher was willing to give it a try. See this link >> >> for some pictures of the system Schu helped us develop. Unfortunately, I >> was one of the few people that ever asked for this product, and there was >> no reason for DPW to put any more energy into the idea. >> >> >> >> Over time I came to realize that what is hindering the development of >> better wire management and wire shielding systems is not the lack of >> manufacturers building the systems-- it is due to the lack of demand for >> them in the market. Wire management and shielding systems will add to the >> cost of any installation. If installers can get away without using these >> systems, why should they bother? >> >> >> >> They get by without them because building officials are all too often >> ignorant and lazy. I have tried and tried to convince the officials in the >> county in which I live to read the black and white of the current NEC but >> they refuse. Most of the inspections of my work by building officials last >> less than 2 minutes. When I ask inspectors and plan checkers questions >> about codes and practices I usually get quizzical stares. >> >> >> >> The engineers at DPW know what the code requires for wire shielding: they >> can read and I have highlighted the requirements many times. DPW was >> willing to experiment, but apparently no one asked to buy these systems so >> there was no reason to put them in the catalog. >> >> >> >> I have had my problems with the DPW painted parts for years. It is not a >> new problem. Hopefully with the attention they are getting this will be >> resolved. I have also waited way too long for even the most minor parts >> orders. This needs to improve. How hard can it be to put a few dozen >> bolts in a box? Why should it take almost two weeks? They need to fix the >> paint and get parts and assemblies out the door in a reasonable time. >> >> >> >> I must say, however, that DPW has provided a very consistently good range >> of products over the years and they have been more responsive than 99% of >> the manufacturers out there. I am still a fan of DPW. >> >> >> >> Sincerely, >> >> >> >> William Miller >> >> >> >> >> >> [image: Gradient Cap_mini] >> Lic 773985 >> millersolar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Howie Michaelson >> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 07, 2015 6:15 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] DPW Rack Problems >> >> >> >> Thanks Michael for the communication conduit. >> >> While I appreciate DP&W's effort to address the issues raised, I don't >> feel their response really speaks to the issues - for us, these are long >> standing problems, although they appear to possibly be getting worse more >> recently. >> >> More importantly, for me this is one of the most valuable aspects of this >> list - the power of the group to garner a manufacturer's attention in order >> to address a problem (think warranty replacement issues, or equipment >> failure rates) or make an improvement. >> >> For instance, if a ground mount racking manufacturer developed a >> functional, code compliant wire management system, I would expect to hear >> about it first on this list, get highly useful evaluations of the >> innovation, and then watch the sales of that system take off due to the >> "viral" nature of information shared on this list. If there are any racking >> manu reps that still read this list, perhaps they could take the ball and >> run with it. One can dream... >> >> Howie >> >> Howie Michaelson >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >> >> Catamount Solar >> Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service >> VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner >> http://www.CatamountSolar.com >> 802-272-0004 >> >> On Oct 7, 2015 7:51 PM, "Michael Welch" >> wrote: >> >> I have had off-list contact with DPW, and I've been asked to post the >> following for them. If you have questions about my posting this on their >> behalf, contact me off list. >> >> Thanks. >> >> Thank you for alerting us to the problems you recently encountered with >> the paint used in our TPMs. It is our intent to respond to customers' >> concerns to maintain your trust and support. We recently had a problem >> when a supplier discontinued a paint we've used since the inception of our >> TPM product line. After testing multiple formulations over the course of >> several weeks we were able to source a silver paint comparable to the >> original and now have that paint problem resolved. As to lead time issues >> we are working with our distributor partners to move orders more quickly >> through their internal processes. We extend our apologies for the >> inconvenience this paint problem has caused. Please contact me personally >> with any questions or concerns. I may be reached at >> schumachers at directpower.com or at 505-889-3585. Steve Schumacher, DPW >> Solar, National Sales Manager >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From frenergy at psln.com Thu Oct 8 13:06:39 2015 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 10:06:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] A happy DPW installer References: <56142BBD.1000206@solarray.com><1444245423.246313820@webmail.finestplanet.com><8B41B49B-7BB7-46DB-9E19-C658C9B03301@gmail.com><162052.90068.bm@smtp119.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><994e78679cc99fce45c76f15bf4ab47d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <92A95FA0BA364E6D88CF4A7563F2B289@D8XG8YH1> I started an email yesterday but was pulled away........... Kirpal couldn't have nailed my response to the grumblings about DPW much better. Its not like we haven't any problems with their racks, but in the big picture and knowing from personal experience the challenges of running a manufacturing biz, I will continue to install DPW racks. Significant problems are very rare and have been promptly dealt with, small problems are just that, small. BTW, they do have a variety of wire management products on Pgs 23, 24 of the Power Rail catalogue/pricing pdf...not TPM related so much but something. Many of our TPM installs already are leaving more room from the lower edge to the ground for shedding snow so the issue of 4 year olds (or anybody for that matter) tugging on wires has become less of an issue as those wires are at an inaccessible height. I too wish to say thanks to DPM. Bill Feather River Solar Electric ----- Original Message ----- From: Kirpal Khalsa To: RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 7:38 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] DPW Rack Problems Wrenches.....We have used the DPW products, primarily their top of pole racks for years....we have well over a hundred of the racks installed....We love their simplicity, and ease of assembly....We have never once had a problem with an installed rack....never had a failure of any kind....We appreciate the fact that they supply extra hardware with each shipment.....Inevitably we drop parts and a few extras are always appreciated..... For us it is the details...We get comfortable installing something we have done many many times....we are able to predict our pace and therefore we can give our customers accurate bids which leave us not over bidding or under bidding....Changes are sometimes necessary and a result of innovation or improvements....Its the communication which sometimes lags....knowledge is power....When we know we are going to be dealing with some change it is easier for us to predict and anticipate changes to our habits....and therefore planning as well....predictability is our friend!!! Our recent experiences have left us a bit disgruntled....while the quality of the installed DPW racks has not changed or degraded we have been left with carrying the extra burden of some of the changes....I am glad to ehar the new paint is going to be new again...Hopefully it will not have the same issues with regards to the packaging sticking to the wet(ish) paint and leaving us with a headache of trying to figure out how to clean off imprints of paper, styrafoam and shrink wrap off of the strong back.... DPW has been a great partner over the years....Growing pains affect us all....Sometimes they are more noticable than others.... Communication is key!!! I will likely continue to use their top of pole racks, as I haven't found any better options.... I value the effect this list has on maintaining the pressure on manufacturers to be responsive to us installers who are on the front lines of making their products fit into the market place....We all have our areas of expertise....and each step is important.....I for one am not interested in becoming a racking manufacturer!!! Cheers.... Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-218-0201 m 541-299-0402 o On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 7:03 AM, Howie Michaelson wrote: William, I have followed your posts over the years and appreciate the efforts you have made in developing and then your willingness to share them with the list. Thank you. If DP&W had wire management products available, it never reached my radar, although admittedly I never asked them either. We would definitely consider passing more for that added value. I too appreciate the robustness of their TPM product, especially compared to the old Unirac TPM that we started out with and watched get blown apart more than once. However, I think we would benefit from a more competitive market, which would hopefully help drive better product to installers and thereby customers. Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Catamount Solar Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner http://www.CatamountSolar.com 802-272-0004 On Oct 8, 2015 3:13 AM, "William Miller" wrote: Howie: At one time I shared your dream: that if only the manufacturer’s would build wire management and shielding systems, consumers would flock to buy them. I asked DPW to help me develop some wire shielding hardware and Steve Schumacher was willing to give it a try. See this link for some pictures of the system Schu helped us develop. Unfortunately, I was one of the few people that ever asked for this product, and there was no reason for DPW to put any more energy into the idea. Over time I came to realize that what is hindering the development of better wire management and wire shielding systems is not the lack of manufacturers building the systems-- it is due to the lack of demand for them in the market. Wire management and shielding systems will add to the cost of any installation. If installers can get away without using these systems, why should they bother? They get by without them because building officials are all too often ignorant and lazy. I have tried and tried to convince the officials in the county in which I live to read the black and white of the current NEC but they refuse. Most of the inspections of my work by building officials last less than 2 minutes. When I ask inspectors and plan checkers questions about codes and practices I usually get quizzical stares. The engineers at DPW know what the code requires for wire shielding: they can read and I have highlighted the requirements many times. DPW was willing to experiment, but apparently no one asked to buy these systems so there was no reason to put them in the catalog. I have had my problems with the DPW painted parts for years. It is not a new problem. Hopefully with the attention they are getting this will be resolved. I have also waited way too long for even the most minor parts orders. This needs to improve. How hard can it be to put a few dozen bolts in a box? Why should it take almost two weeks? They need to fix the paint and get parts and assemblies out the door in a reasonable time. I must say, however, that DPW has provided a very consistently good range of products over the years and they have been more responsive than 99% of the manufacturers out there. I am still a fan of DPW. Sincerely, William Miller Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Howie Michaelson Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2015 6:15 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] DPW Rack Problems Thanks Michael for the communication conduit. While I appreciate DP&W's effort to address the issues raised, I don't feel their response really speaks to the issues - for us, these are long standing problems, although they appear to possibly be getting worse more recently. More importantly, for me this is one of the most valuable aspects of this list - the power of the group to garner a manufacturer's attention in order to address a problem (think warranty replacement issues, or equipment failure rates) or make an improvement. For instance, if a ground mount racking manufacturer developed a functional, code compliant wire management system, I would expect to hear about it first on this list, get highly useful evaluations of the innovation, and then watch the sales of that system take off due to the "viral" nature of information shared on this list. If there are any racking manu reps that still read this list, perhaps they could take the ball and run with it. One can dream... Howie Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Catamount Solar Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner http://www.CatamountSolar.com 802-272-0004 On Oct 7, 2015 7:51 PM, "Michael Welch" wrote: I have had off-list contact with DPW, and I've been asked to post the following for them. If you have questions about my posting this on their behalf, contact me off list. Thanks. Thank you for alerting us to the problems you recently encountered with the paint used in our TPMs. It is our intent to respond to customers' concerns to maintain your trust and support. We recently had a problem when a supplier discontinued a paint we've used since the inception of our TPM product line. After testing multiple formulations over the course of several weeks we were able to source a silver paint comparable to the original and now have that paint problem resolved. As to lead time issues we are working with our distributor partners to move orders more quickly through their internal processes. We extend our apologies for the inconvenience this paint problem has caused. Please contact me personally with any questions or concerns. I may be reached at schumachers at directpower.com or at 505-889-3585. Steve Schumacher, DPW Solar, National Sales Manager _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Fri Oct 9 01:47:16 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 23:47:16 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hailstorm damage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <561754E4.7050403@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_0258.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 197182 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Oct 9 08:09:17 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 08:09:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hailstorm damage In-Reply-To: <561754E4.7050403@sindelarsolar.com> References: <561754E4.7050403@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Not to hijack the thread, but the timing is perfect for another related question I had. A client approached me about putting solar panels on a golf course maintenance building. The pitch is 2 in 12 and the location is supposedly not in the typical direction/are where golf balls are likely to be hit (most likely because I don't have a membership there). The question will naturally come up about golf ball strikes. We have several systems along fairways on residences and have not had any reported issues. Does anyone else have systems in the cross-hairs of errant golf balls? If so, any feedback on resistance to strikes? ​Jason Szumlanski​ ​​Florida Solar Design Group​ On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 1:47 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > Wrenches, > From time to time I see posts about hail damage. The message below was > sent internally among Positive Energy's three offices, and I thought worth > sharing here. > Allan, Sindelar Solar > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Big hailstorm in LC Date: Tue, > 6 Oct 2015 08:04:14 -0600 > Hi all, > We had a big hail storm in Las Cruces on Saturday. Because so many > potential clients ask about how solar panels hold up to hail, I thought > that I would share a bit of what we found. > > The hail that was falling was about golf ball sized. I have seen a > picture of a hailstone next to a tape measure that was about an inch and a > half in diameter. On the install that we started yesterday, all of the > customer's skylights (about 6) were busted out; not just cracked, but with > big holes punched through them. Several of our clients called to tell us > that their skylights were destroyed, but their solar panels were > undamaged. We went up onto roofs for four of our clients that are out of > town and found no damage to the PV arrays. > > We have only one report of a damaged panel, which you can see in the > attached photos. This was a unique installation, because the modules are > mounted flat on a nominally flat roof, so they have about two degrees of > pitch. That means that the hailstones hit almost perpendicular, so with > more force. Even at this installation, only one 1 out of 15 modules was > damaged. This is a Suntech module. > > All in all, our modules fared well. To my knowledge, this is only the > second time that a module installed by Positive Energy has been damaged by > hail. The first time was in Taos a few years ago. > Cheers, > Westbrock > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 7:19 PM > Subject: Broken Panel > > Here is what the panel looks like! It is just like safety glass, the > entire panel is shattered. > Bob > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From William.White at rgsenergy.com Fri Oct 9 11:13:24 2015 From: William.White at rgsenergy.com (Will White) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 15:13:24 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hailstorm damage In-Reply-To: References: <561754E4.7050403@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: I’ve seen photos from one of the leasing companies of arrays right next to a golf course that got multiple ball strikes. They were having to constantly replace modules which lead to a rule of no arrays within some number of feet from a course. I think it was 300’. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Friday, October 09, 2015 8:09 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Hailstorm damage Not to hijack the thread, but the timing is perfect for another related question I had. A client approached me about putting solar panels on a golf course maintenance building. The pitch is 2 in 12 and the location is supposedly not in the typical direction/are where golf balls are likely to be hit (most likely because I don't have a membership there). The question will naturally come up about golf ball strikes. We have several systems along fairways on residences and have not had any reported issues. Does anyone else have systems in the cross-hairs of errant golf balls? If so, any feedback on resistance to strikes? ​Jason Szumlanski​ ​​Florida Solar Design Group​ On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 1:47 AM, Allan Sindelar > wrote: Wrenches, From time to time I see posts about hail damage. The message below was sent internally among Positive Energy's three offices, and I thought worth sharing here. Allan, Sindelar Solar -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Big hailstorm in LC Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 08:04:14 -0600 Hi all, We had a big hail storm in Las Cruces on Saturday. Because so many potential clients ask about how solar panels hold up to hail, I thought that I would share a bit of what we found. The hail that was falling was about golf ball sized. I have seen a picture of a hailstone next to a tape measure that was about an inch and a half in diameter. On the install that we started yesterday, all of the customer's skylights (about 6) were busted out; not just cracked, but with big holes punched through them. Several of our clients called to tell us that their skylights were destroyed, but their solar panels were undamaged. We went up onto roofs for four of our clients that are out of town and found no damage to the PV arrays. We have only one report of a damaged panel, which you can see in the attached photos. This was a unique installation, because the modules are mounted flat on a nominally flat roof, so they have about two degrees of pitch. That means that the hailstones hit almost perpendicular, so with more force. Even at this installation, only one 1 out of 15 modules was damaged. This is a Suntech module. All in all, our modules fared well. To my knowledge, this is only the second time that a module installed by Positive Energy has been damaged by hail. The first time was in Taos a few years ago. Cheers, Westbrock ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 7:19 PM Subject: Broken Panel Here is what the panel looks like! It is just like safety glass, the entire panel is shattered. Bob _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From westbrock at positiveenergysolar.com Fri Oct 9 11:35:24 2015 From: westbrock at positiveenergysolar.com (Mark Westbrock) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 09:35:24 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hailstorm damage In-Reply-To: References: <561754E4.7050403@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Jason, We have several systems in close proximity to golf courses and have seen one case of damage. The damaged module is in an array mounted at a 10 degree tilt. One damaged module (that we know of) in six years for this particular system. The home is about 50 meters from the edge of a driving range and about 200 meters from the tees for the driving range. I was surprised by the damage because of the low tilt of the array and the distance from the tees. I know it would be more helpful if I could tell you how many golf balls have hit the array and NOT damaged a module, but I have no idea. Cheers, Mark [reposted with smaller photos] ---- *Mark Westbrock* Branch Manager & Employee-Owner NM EE98J Journeyman Electrician NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified PV Technical Sales Positive Energy, Inc. 510 S. Main St. Las Cruces, NM 88001 office: 575-524-2030 cell: 575-640-2432 mw at positiveenergysolar.com www.positiveenergysolar.com On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 6:09 AM, Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Not to hijack the thread, but the timing is perfect for another related > question I had. A client approached me about putting solar panels on a golf > course maintenance building. The pitch is 2 in 12 and the location is > supposedly not in the typical direction/are where golf balls are likely to > be hit (most likely because I don't have a membership there). The question > will naturally come up about golf ball strikes. We have several systems > along fairways on residences and have not had any reported issues. Does > anyone else have systems in the cross-hairs of errant golf balls? If so, > any feedback on resistance to strikes? > > ​Jason Szumlanski​ > ​​Florida Solar Design Group​ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: P1270004 (800x600).jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 397696 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: P1270005 (800x600).jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 301927 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dyoung at dovetailsolar.com Fri Oct 9 14:17:45 2015 From: dyoung at dovetailsolar.com (Daniel Young) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 14:17:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hailstorm damage In-Reply-To: References: <561754E4.7050403@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <008201d102be$cbe55060$63aff120$@com> It’s not our install, but I know of a 1MW+ job using First solar modules in Toledo that has several golf ball related module failures a year (sometimes more than a few/month). There is a nearby driving range where the people there supposedly bet whether they can hit the array or not…. Also we have a job in Indiana where a local neighbor drives golf balls directly into the 3MW array from an adjacent property (not sure which neighbor, the Sheriff has been notified). So far in the 3 months the system has been in, roughly 7 modules have been damaged. It appears to only happen when the ball hits near the edge of the glass, as those are the only places that damage is visible on broken modules. So I’d have to say that golf balls are capable of damaging modules, but it would likely take a good hit, near the edge of the glass to break them. They still produce after the hit, but will eventually cause a ground fault when they get wet and conduct to the frame. That’s how we found a few modules with bullet impacts in Cincinnati J With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mark Westbrock Sent: Friday, October 09, 2015 11:35 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Hailstorm damage Jason, We have several systems in close proximity to golf courses and have seen one case of damage. The damaged module is in an array mounted at a 10 degree tilt. One damaged module (that we know of) in six years for this particular system. The home is about 50 meters from the edge of a driving range and about 200 meters from the tees for the driving range. I was surprised by the damage because of the low tilt of the array and the distance from the tees. I know it would be more helpful if I could tell you how many golf balls have hit the array and NOT damaged a module, but I have no idea. Cheers, Mark [reposted with smaller photos] ---- Mark Westbrock Branch Manager & Employee-Owner NM EE98J Journeyman Electrician NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified PV Technical Sales Positive Energy, Inc. 510 S. Main St. Las Cruces, NM 88001 office: 575-524-2030 cell: 575-640-2432 mw at positiveenergysolar.com www.positiveenergysolar.com On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 6:09 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: Not to hijack the thread, but the timing is perfect for another related question I had. A client approached me about putting solar panels on a golf course maintenance building. The pitch is 2 in 12 and the location is supposedly not in the typical direction/are where golf balls are likely to be hit (most likely because I don't have a membership there). The question will naturally come up about golf ball strikes. We have several systems along fairways on residences and have not had any reported issues. Does anyone else have systems in the cross-hairs of errant golf balls? If so, any feedback on resistance to strikes? ​Jason Szumlanski​ ​​Florida Solar Design Group​ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 9mm slug found by module.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 381695 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Bullet Damaged Module.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 339916 bytes Desc: not available URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Fri Oct 9 15:08:57 2015 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 13:08:57 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hailstorm damage In-Reply-To: <561754E4.7050403@sindelarsolar.com> References: <561754E4.7050403@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <891587F5-D9BD-42B1-BADE-E2DCE7D16355@skyfireenergy.com> Allan, great of you to share this, thank you. I am asked about potential hail damage on at least 85% of the site assessments I do, so reciting the "industry standard hailstone test" is pretty common. To date, I am only aware of one system that suffered damaged modules from hail here in Alberta. Similarly to what you described, the modules were mounted almost completely flat and in that case the hail was reported to be at least golf ball size as well. Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 > On Oct 8, 2015, at 11:47 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > > Wrenches, > From time to time I see posts about hail damage. The message below was sent internally among Positive Energy's three offices, and I thought worth sharing here. > Allan, Sindelar Solar > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > Subject: Big hailstorm in LC > Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 08:04:14 -0600 > Hi all, > We had a big hail storm in Las Cruces on Saturday. Because so many potential clients ask about how solar panels hold up to hail, I thought that I would share a bit of what we found. > > The hail that was falling was about golf ball sized. I have seen a picture of a hailstone next to a tape measure that was about an inch and a half in diameter. On the install that we started yesterday, all of the customer's skylights (about 6) were busted out; not just cracked, but with big holes punched through them. Several of our clients called to tell us that their skylights were destroyed, but their solar panels were undamaged. We went up onto roofs for four of our clients that are out of town and found no damage to the PV arrays. > > We have only one report of a damaged panel, which you can see in the attached photos. This was a unique installation, because the modules are mounted flat on a nominally flat roof, so they have about two degrees of pitch. That means that the hailstones hit almost perpendicular, so with more force. Even at this installation, only one 1 out of 15 modules was damaged. This is a Suntech module. > > All in all, our modules fared well. To my knowledge, this is only the second time that a module installed by Positive Energy has been damaged by hail. The first time was in Taos a few years ago. > Cheers, > Westbrock > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 7:19 PM > Subject: Broken Panel > > Here is what the panel looks like! It is just like safety glass, the entire panel is shattered. > Bob > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Oct 9 15:47:39 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 09:47:39 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hailstorm damage In-Reply-To: References: <561754E4.7050403@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Wrenches We have modules next to a driving range at a golf course and we find golf balls around the arrays regularly and do find broken modules from time to time Jerry On Oct 9, 2015 4:52 AM, "Jason Szumlanski" < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Not to hijack the thread, but the timing is perfect for another related > question I had. A client approached me about putting solar panels on a golf > course maintenance building. The pitch is 2 in 12 and the location is > supposedly not in the typical direction/are where golf balls are likely to > be hit (most likely because I don't have a membership there). The question > will naturally come up about golf ball strikes. We have several systems > along fairways on residences and have not had any reported issues. Does > anyone else have systems in the cross-hairs of errant golf balls? If so, > any feedback on resistance to strikes? > > ​Jason Szumlanski​ > ​​Florida Solar Design Group​ > > > On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 1:47 AM, Allan Sindelar > wrote: > >> Wrenches, >> From time to time I see posts about hail damage. The message below was >> sent internally among Positive Energy's three offices, and I thought worth >> sharing here. >> Allan, Sindelar Solar >> >> -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Big hailstorm in LC Date: Tue, >> 6 Oct 2015 08:04:14 -0600 >> Hi all, >> We had a big hail storm in Las Cruces on Saturday. Because so many >> potential clients ask about how solar panels hold up to hail, I thought >> that I would share a bit of what we found. >> >> The hail that was falling was about golf ball sized. I have seen a >> picture of a hailstone next to a tape measure that was about an inch and a >> half in diameter. On the install that we started yesterday, all of the >> customer's skylights (about 6) were busted out; not just cracked, but with >> big holes punched through them. Several of our clients called to tell us >> that their skylights were destroyed, but their solar panels were >> undamaged. We went up onto roofs for four of our clients that are out of >> town and found no damage to the PV arrays. >> >> We have only one report of a damaged panel, which you can see in the >> attached photos. This was a unique installation, because the modules are >> mounted flat on a nominally flat roof, so they have about two degrees of >> pitch. That means that the hailstones hit almost perpendicular, so with >> more force. Even at this installation, only one 1 out of 15 modules was >> damaged. This is a Suntech module. >> >> All in all, our modules fared well. To my knowledge, this is only the >> second time that a module installed by Positive Energy has been damaged by >> hail. The first time was in Taos a few years ago. >> Cheers, >> Westbrock >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> Date: Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 7:19 PM >> Subject: Broken Panel >> >> Here is what the panel looks like! It is just like safety glass, the >> entire panel is shattered. >> Bob >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri Oct 9 16:53:27 2015 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 16:53:27 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hailstorm damage In-Reply-To: References: <561754E4.7050403@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <20151009205348.27B9710067@che.dreamhost.com> All of which begs the question, has anyone successfully gotten a warranty claim for the damage if it would seem that the damage was inflicted to a lesser degree than product testing seems to indicate? Sincerely, Glenn Burt Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. -----Original Message----- From: "Jerry Shafer" Sent: ‎10/‎9/‎2015 15:47 To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Hailstorm damage Wrenches We have modules next to a driving range at a golf course and we find golf balls around the arrays regularly and do find broken modules from time to time Jerry On Oct 9, 2015 4:52 AM, "Jason Szumlanski" < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Not to hijack the thread, but the timing is perfect for another related > question I had. A client approached me about putting solar panels on a golf > course maintenance building. The pitch is 2 in 12 and the location is > supposedly not in the typical direction/are where golf balls are likely to > be hit (most likely because I don't have a membership there). The question > will naturally come up about golf ball strikes. We have several systems > along fairways on residences and have not had any reported issues. Does > anyone else have systems in the cross-hairs of errant golf balls? If so, > any feedback on resistance to strikes? > > ​Jason Szumlanski​ > ​​Florida Solar Design Group​ > > > On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 1:47 AM, Allan Sindelar > wrote: > >> Wrenches, >> From time to time I see posts about hail damage. The message below was >> sent internally among Positive Energy's three offices, and I thought worth >> sharing here. >> Allan, Sindelar Solar >> >> -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Big hailstorm in LC Date: Tue, >> 6 Oct 2015 08:04:14 -0600 >> Hi all, >> We had a big hail storm in Las Cruces on Saturday. Because so many >> potential clients ask about how solar panels hold up to hail, I thought >> that I would share a bit of what we found. >> >> The hail that was falling was about golf ball sized. I have seen a >> picture of a hailstone next to a tape measure that was about an inch and a >> half in diameter. On the install that we started yesterday, all of the >> customer's skylights (about 6) were busted out; not just cracked, but with >> big holes punched through them. Several of our clients called to tell us >> that their skylights were destroyed, but their solar panels were >> undamaged. We went up onto roofs for four of our clients that are out of >> town and found no damage to the PV arrays. >> >> We have only one report of a damaged panel, which you can see in the >> attached photos. This was a unique installation, because the modules are >> mounted flat on a nominally flat roof, so they have about two degrees of >> pitch. That means that the hailstones hit almost perpendicular, so with >> more force. Even at this installation, only one 1 out of 15 modules was >> damaged. This is a Suntech module. >> >> All in all, our modules fared well. To my knowledge, this is only the >> second time that a module installed by Positive Energy has been damaged by >> hail. The first time was in Taos a few years ago. >> Cheers, >> Westbrock >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> Date: Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 7:19 PM >> Subject: Broken Panel >> >> Here is what the panel looks like! It is just like safety glass, the >> entire panel is shattered. >> Bob >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > [The entire original message is not included.] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From greg at remotepowerinc.com Fri Oct 9 17:06:04 2015 From: greg at remotepowerinc.com (Greg) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 13:06:04 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] golfballs and hail damage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56182C3C.8070807@remotepowerinc.com> Fellow wrenches, We have been involved with several remote village installs where the kids like to throw rocks at PV panels. I've had reports that the PV installs with Solarworld Sunmodule Protect series PV panels installed in nearby villages have taken direct hits from rocks with zero apparent damage. They've been in for about a year. I didn't believe the hype on them - especially the marketing video from Solarworld but now that they've lasted a year with bored kids trying to break them - they must be pretty tough. All the best, Greg Egan Remote Power Inc. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Fri Oct 9 17:46:22 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 15:46:22 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hailstorm damage In-Reply-To: <20151009205348.27B9710067@che.dreamhost.com> References: <561754E4.7050403@sindelarsolar.com> <20151009205348.27B9710067@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <40022615-5BED-4EED-8712-E8FDBB59AA9B@starlightsolar.com> Hi Glenn, Most Warranty spell out their exemptions that include any damage for objects. I just glanced at the Sanyo warranty and found they even mention Golf Balls and hail stones! • Damage caused by abuse, neglect, vandalism, accident, animals or insects, or external stress, such as, but not limited to, stepping on Product, impacts from falling objects such as tools, golf balls, rocks, hailstones, or other debris Larry On Oct 9, 2015, at 2:53 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: All of which begs the question, has anyone successfully gotten a warranty claim for the damage if it would seem that the damage was inflicted to a lesser degree than product testing seems to indicate? Sincerely, Glenn Burt Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. From: Jerry Shafer Sent: ‎10/‎9/‎2015 15:47 To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Hailstorm damage Wrenches We have modules next to a driving range at a golf course and we find golf balls around the arrays regularly and do find broken modules from time to time Jerry On Oct 9, 2015 4:52 AM, "Jason Szumlanski" wrote: Not to hijack the thread, but the timing is perfect for another related question I had. A client approached me about putting solar panels on a golf course maintenance building. The pitch is 2 in 12 and the location is supposedly not in the typical direction/are where golf balls are likely to be hit (most likely because I don't have a membership there). The question will naturally come up about golf ball strikes. We have several systems along fairways on residences and have not had any reported issues. Does anyone else have systems in the cross-hairs of errant golf balls? If so, any feedback on resistance to strikes? ​Jason Szumlanski​ ​​Florida Solar Design Group​ On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 1:47 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: Wrenches, From time to time I see posts about hail damage. The message below was sent internally among Positive Energy's three offices, and I thought worth sharing here. Allan, Sindelar Solar -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Big hailstorm in LC Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 08:04:14 -0600 Hi all, We had a big hail storm in Las Cruces on Saturday. Because so many potential clients ask about how solar panels hold up to hail, I thought that I would share a bit of what we found. The hail that was falling was about golf ball sized. I have seen a picture of a hailstone next to a tape measure that was about an inch and a half in diameter. On the install that we started yesterday, all of the customer's skylights (about 6) were busted out; not just cracked, but with big holes punched through them. Several of our clients called to tell us that their skylights were destroyed, but their solar panels were undamaged. We went up onto roofs for four of our clients that are out of town and found no damage to the PV arrays. We have only one report of a damaged panel, which you can see in the attached photos. This was a unique installation, because the modules are mounted flat on a nominally flat roof, so they have about two degrees of pitch. That means that the hailstones hit almost perpendicular, so with more force. Even at this installation, only one 1 out of 15 modules was damaged. This is a Suntech module. All in all, our modules fared well. To my knowledge, this is only the second time that a module installed by Positive Energy has been damaged by hail. The first time was in Taos a few years ago. Cheers, Westbrock ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 7:19 PM Subject: Broken Panel Here is what the panel looks like! It is just like safety glass, the entire panel is shattered. Bob _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [The entire original message is not included.] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Sat Oct 10 07:41:40 2015 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (William Dorsett) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 06:41:40 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hailstorm damage In-Reply-To: <008201d102be$cbe55060$63aff120$@com> References: <561754E4.7050403@sindelarsolar.com> <008201d102be$cbe55060$63aff120$@com> Message-ID: <000001d10350$c1157150$434053f0$@sbcglobal.net> Allen, Kansas is famous for big hail, and we just had our first smashed Canadian Solar CS6P 260 W module from a storm with tennis ball sized pounding….only one out modules on a 3:12 slope. Like a broken windshield. Our son used to live in Norman, OK and we while reroofing it after one of the very common storms (ten miles south of Moore, which has had a tornado for about half of the last seven years), one roofer described a hole through a steel roof the size of a saucer….went through the roof and the drywall, landing in the living room. I tell people that we can’t guarantee against that sort of thing : ) Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Young Sent: Friday, October 09, 2015 1:18 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Hailstorm damage It’s not our install, but I know of a 1MW+ job using First solar modules in Toledo that has several golf ball related module failures a year (sometimes more than a few/month). There is a nearby driving range where the people there supposedly bet whether they can hit the array or not…. Also we have a job in Indiana where a local neighbor drives golf balls directly into the 3MW array from an adjacent property (not sure which neighbor, the Sheriff has been notified). So far in the 3 months the system has been in, roughly 7 modules have been damaged. It appears to only happen when the ball hits near the edge of the glass, as those are the only places that damage is visible on broken modules. So I’d have to say that golf balls are capable of damaging modules, but it would likely take a good hit, near the edge of the glass to break them. They still produce after the hit, but will eventually cause a ground fault when they get wet and conduct to the frame. That’s how we found a few modules with bullet impacts in Cincinnati J With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mark Westbrock Sent: Friday, October 09, 2015 11:35 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Hailstorm damage Jason, We have several systems in close proximity to golf courses and have seen one case of damage. The damaged module is in an array mounted at a 10 degree tilt. One damaged module (that we know of) in six years for this particular system. The home is about 50 meters from the edge of a driving range and about 200 meters from the tees for the driving range. I was surprised by the damage because of the low tilt of the array and the distance from the tees. I know it would be more helpful if I could tell you how many golf balls have hit the array and NOT damaged a module, but I have no idea. Cheers, Mark [reposted with smaller photos] ---- Mark Westbrock Branch Manager & Employee-Owner NM EE98J Journeyman Electrician NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified PV Technical Sales Positive Energy, Inc. 510 S. Main St. Las Cruces, NM 88001 office: 575-524-2030 cell: 575-640-2432 mw at positiveenergysolar.com www.positiveenergysolar.com On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 6:09 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: Not to hijack the thread, but the timing is perfect for another related question I had. A client approached me about putting solar panels on a golf course maintenance building. The pitch is 2 in 12 and the location is supposedly not in the typical direction/are where golf balls are likely to be hit (most likely because I don't have a membership there). The question will naturally come up about golf ball strikes. We have several systems along fairways on residences and have not had any reported issues. Does anyone else have systems in the cross-hairs of errant golf balls? If so, any feedback on resistance to strikes? ​Jason Szumlanski​ ​​Florida Solar Design Group​ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Sat Oct 10 11:47:53 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 09:47:53 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hailstorm damage In-Reply-To: <891587F5-D9BD-42B1-BADE-E2DCE7D16355@skyfireenergy.com> References: <561754E4.7050403@sindelarsolar.com> <891587F5-D9BD-42B1-BADE-E2DCE7D16355@skyfireenergy.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Sat Oct 10 11:48:49 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 09:48:49 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hailstorm damage In-Reply-To: <891587F5-D9BD-42B1-BADE-E2DCE7D16355@skyfireenergy.com> References: <561754E4.7050403@sindelarsolar.com> <891587F5-D9BD-42B1-BADE-E2DCE7D16355@skyfireenergy.com> Message-ID: Speaking of flat mounted modules, most of what we install are flat mounted on vehicles. The numbers since 2001 are well over 10,000 PV modules flat mounted. Not one customer has contacted me about a module damaged by hail. My personal RV was in a hail storm that did $22,000 damage to my home. The stones were near 2” diameter. The RV had skylights smashed and AC units damage but no glass breakage on any modules. Tough glass. Larry On Oct 9, 2015, at 1:08 PM, Benn Kilburn > wrote: Allan, great of you to share this, thank you. I am asked about potential hail damage on at least 85% of the site assessments I do, so reciting the "industry standard hailstone test" is pretty common. To date, I am only aware of one system that suffered damaged modules from hail here in Alberta. Similarly to what you described, the modules were mounted almost completely flat and in that case the hail was reported to be at least golf ball size as well. Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy Inc. 780-906-7807 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From louis at solarcowboyz.com Sun Oct 11 12:36:29 2015 From: louis at solarcowboyz.com (louis at solarcowboyz.com) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 09:36:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Apollo charge controller Message-ID: <20151011093629.9cbc0dcf5f80a0dc982e07761d51a7ae.f70e47aade.wbe@email05.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Oct 11 15:13:39 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 13:13:39 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pg&e meter reading Message-ID: <1ED02C4A-96CD-4F7A-82A5-3FB312EB76CA@gmail.com> I have a client who added some extra solar to an existing permitted approved install and didn't tell the utility. They don't think they are getting the added amount of $/kWh. Pg&e said that's true that they have to calibrate the meter for maximum sell back watts and it's set to low. I don't believe it. But anyone have anything to add? Jay Peltz power Sent from my iPhone From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Oct 11 18:04:12 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 12:04:12 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pg&e meter reading Message-ID: <99yp4dryvcmpgpwdpjamxwo5.1444601051082@email.android.com> Sounds a little fishy to me, is it a big residential or real small Jerry Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Jay
Date:10/11/2015 9:13 AM (GMT-10:00)
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pg&e meter reading
I have a client who added some extra solar to an existing permitted approved install and didn't tell the utility. They don't think they are getting the added amount of $/kWh. Pg&e said that's true that they have to calibrate the meter for maximum sell back watts and it's set to low. I don't believe it. But anyone have anything to add? Jay Peltz power Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Oct 11 21:39:45 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 19:39:45 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pg&e meter reading In-Reply-To: <99yp4dryvcmpgpwdpjamxwo5.1444601051082@email.android.com> References: <99yp4dryvcmpgpwdpjamxwo5.1444601051082@email.android.com> Message-ID: HI Jerry, Sorry can you be more specific as to what fishy means? jay > On Oct 11, 2015, at 4:04 PM, jerrysgarage01 wrote: > > Sounds a little fishy to me, is it a big residential or real small > > Jerry > > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Jay > Date:10/11/2015 9:13 AM (GMT-10:00) > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pg&e meter reading > > I have a client who added some extra solar to an existing permitted approved install and didn't tell the utility. > > They don't think they are getting the added amount of $/kWh. > > Pg&e said that's true that they have to calibrate the meter for maximum sell back watts and it's set to low. > > I don't believe it. But anyone have anything to add? > > Jay > > Peltz power > > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Oct 12 01:09:42 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 19:09:42 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pg&e meter reading Message-ID: Well stating that the pg&e meter is set to only "Sell a maximum amount that is less then what the meter is set to" Buy" would be news to me as I have seen bootleg systems selling and there was nothing stopping it. I have also seen inverter upgrades that increase selling. Back to my question is how big is it vs how dig was it. Jerry Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: jay
Date:10/11/2015 3:39 PM (GMT-10:00)
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Pg&e meter reading
HI Jerry, Sorry can you be more specific as to what fishy means? jay On Oct 11, 2015, at 4:04 PM, jerrysgarage01 wrote: Sounds a little fishy to me, is it a big residential or real small Jerry Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Jay Date:10/11/2015 9:13 AM (GMT-10:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pg&e meter reading I have a client who added some extra solar to an existing permitted approved install and didn't tell the utility. They don't think they are getting the added amount of $/kWh. Pg&e said that's true that they have to calibrate the meter for maximum sell back watts and it's set to low. I don't believe it. But anyone have anything to add? Jay Peltz power Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Oct 12 09:33:39 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 07:33:39 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pg&e meter reading In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: HI All the question stands as: a representative of PG&E told my client that his added 8kw isn’t being recorded by the meter as the meter isn’t programed for 16kw, only the 8kw of original PV. FYI not sure if this is a smart meter but it is a new digital one. thanks for the answers. I think its pretty clear from all I’ve heard from that no this isn’t possible. jay peltz power > On Oct 11, 2015, at 11:09 PM, jerrysgarage01 wrote: > > Well stating that the pg&e meter is set to only "Sell a maximum amount that is less then what the meter is set to" Buy" would be news to me as I have seen bootleg systems selling and there was nothing stopping it. I have also seen inverter upgrades that increase selling. Back to my question is how big is it vs how dig was it. > Jerry > > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: jay > Date:10/11/2015 3:39 PM (GMT-10:00) > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Pg&e meter reading > > HI Jerry, > > Sorry can you be more specific as to what fishy means? > > jay > > >> On Oct 11, 2015, at 4:04 PM, jerrysgarage01 > wrote: >> >> Sounds a little fishy to me, is it a big residential or real small >> >> Jerry >> >> >> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone >> >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: Jay >> Date:10/11/2015 9:13 AM (GMT-10:00) >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pg&e meter reading >> >> I have a client who added some extra solar to an existing permitted approved install and didn't tell the utility. >> >> They don't think they are getting the added amount of $/kWh. >> >> Pg&e said that's true that they have to calibrate the meter for maximum sell back watts and it's set to low. >> >> I don't believe it. But anyone have anything to add? >> >> Jay >> >> Peltz power >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> ___________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Mon Oct 12 12:32:00 2015 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 12:32:00 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pg&e meter reading In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: May just be an accounting trick on the backend? Software lops off all exported energy when export power is above 8kW? Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 PV Curriculum Developer and Instructor Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 9:33 AM, jay wrote: > HI All > > the question stands as: a representative of PG&E told my client that his > added 8kw isn’t being recorded by the meter as the meter isn’t programed > for 16kw, only the 8kw of original PV. > FYI not sure if this is a smart meter but it is a new digital one. > > thanks for the answers. I think its pretty clear from all I’ve heard from > that no this isn’t possible. > > jay > > peltz power > > > On Oct 11, 2015, at 11:09 PM, jerrysgarage01 > wrote: > > Well stating that the pg&e meter is set to only "Sell a maximum amount > that is less then what the meter is set to" Buy" would be news to me as I > have seen bootleg systems selling and there was nothing stopping it. I have > also seen inverter upgrades that increase selling. Back to my question is > how big is it vs how dig was it. > Jerry > > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: jay > Date:10/11/2015 3:39 PM (GMT-10:00) > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Pg&e meter reading > > HI Jerry, > > Sorry can you be more specific as to what fishy means? > > jay > > > On Oct 11, 2015, at 4:04 PM, jerrysgarage01 > wrote: > > Sounds a little fishy to me, is it a big residential or real small > > Jerry > > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Jay > Date:10/11/2015 9:13 AM (GMT-10:00) > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pg&e meter reading > > I have a client who added some extra solar to an existing permitted > approved install and didn't tell the utility. > > They don't think they are getting the added amount of $/kWh. > > Pg&e said that's true that they have to calibrate the meter for maximum > sell back watts and it's set to low. > > I don't believe it. But anyone have anything to add? > > Jay > > Peltz power > > > Sent from my iPhone > ___________________________________________ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com Mon Oct 12 11:56:18 2015 From: nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com (Nick Soleil) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 08:56:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pg&e meter reading In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: HI Jay, I would believe what the PG&E agent said. When the utility began to use the GE Smart Meters (with SilverSprings zigbee card) a lot of new "features" were rolled out in California. The smart meters can detect if there is selling of power prior to an authorization to interconnect. If they see power flowing backwards, they charge it as consumption! The smart meters also notify the utility if a system is backfeeding the meter without being authorized. It makes sense that they would also cap the amount of sell back at or near the inverter kw. That is really sad, if it is true, but not surprising. On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 6:33 AM, jay wrote: > HI All > > the question stands as: a representative of PG&E told my client that his > added 8kw isn’t being recorded by the meter as the meter isn’t programed > for 16kw, only the 8kw of original PV. > FYI not sure if this is a smart meter but it is a new digital one. > > thanks for the answers. I think its pretty clear from all I’ve heard from > that no this isn’t possible. > > jay > > peltz power > > > On Oct 11, 2015, at 11:09 PM, jerrysgarage01 > wrote: > > Well stating that the pg&e meter is set to only "Sell a maximum amount > that is less then what the meter is set to" Buy" would be news to me as I > have seen bootleg systems selling and there was nothing stopping it. I have > also seen inverter upgrades that increase selling. Back to my question is > how big is it vs how dig was it. > Jerry > > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: jay > Date:10/11/2015 3:39 PM (GMT-10:00) > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Pg&e meter reading > > HI Jerry, > > Sorry can you be more specific as to what fishy means? > > jay > > > On Oct 11, 2015, at 4:04 PM, jerrysgarage01 > wrote: > > Sounds a little fishy to me, is it a big residential or real small > > Jerry > > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Jay > Date:10/11/2015 9:13 AM (GMT-10:00) > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pg&e meter reading > > I have a client who added some extra solar to an existing permitted > approved install and didn't tell the utility. > > They don't think they are getting the added amount of $/kWh. > > Pg&e said that's true that they have to calibrate the meter for maximum > sell back watts and it's set to low. > > I don't believe it. But anyone have anything to add? > > Jay > > Peltz power > > > Sent from my iPhone > ___________________________________________ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Cordially, Nick Soleil *Enphase Energy* | Field Applications Engineer office 707-763-4784 <%28707%29%20763.%204784> x7267 cell 07-321-2937 *Powering What’s Next*™* | *The Enphase Energy Management System NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 Texas Master Electrician #284451 “Don’t get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It’s just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there’s an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it’s wireless!” - William McDonough -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Oct 12 20:54:27 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 14:54:27 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wattsun trackers Message-ID: Wrenches Another reason I don't use wattsun is they change there parts and don't keep legacy products on hand, I am looking for a drive gear and pinion assembly for a tracker E to W, I am getting the model number, it's on a 10" pole I did not do the install but can keep busy fixing these machines. The gear box I have is cracked and repairing may be an issue, anybody out the have anything lets talk Jerry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Tue Oct 13 07:11:59 2015 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 07:11:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pg&e meter reading In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If it is a standard GE meter, you can download the manual and read the features. Then you will know what it is capable of. Ìf it cannot do this, call the rep. and ask how they were able to do it as the meter does not have the capability. Chris Mason Comet Systems Anguilla (264) 235-5670 St. Kitts (869) 662-5670 skype netconcepts NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Renewable Energy Systems professional Generac Generators Factory technician On Oct 12, 2015 12:34 PM, "Nick Soleil" wrote: > HI Jay, > > I would believe what the PG&E agent said. When the utility began to use > the GE Smart Meters (with SilverSprings zigbee card) a lot of new > "features" were rolled out in California. > > The smart meters can detect if there is selling of power prior to an > authorization to interconnect. If they see power flowing backwards, they > charge it as consumption! > > The smart meters also notify the utility if a system is backfeeding the > meter without being authorized. > > It makes sense that they would also cap the amount of sell back at or near > the inverter kw. That is really sad, if it is true, but not surprising. > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 6:33 AM, jay wrote: > >> HI All >> >> the question stands as: a representative of PG&E told my client that his >> added 8kw isn’t being recorded by the meter as the meter isn’t programed >> for 16kw, only the 8kw of original PV. >> FYI not sure if this is a smart meter but it is a new digital one. >> >> thanks for the answers. I think its pretty clear from all I’ve heard >> from that no this isn’t possible. >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> >> >> On Oct 11, 2015, at 11:09 PM, jerrysgarage01 >> wrote: >> >> Well stating that the pg&e meter is set to only "Sell a maximum amount >> that is less then what the meter is set to" Buy" would be news to me as I >> have seen bootleg systems selling and there was nothing stopping it. I have >> also seen inverter upgrades that increase selling. Back to my question is >> how big is it vs how dig was it. >> Jerry >> >> >> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone >> >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: jay >> Date:10/11/2015 3:39 PM (GMT-10:00) >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Pg&e meter reading >> >> HI Jerry, >> >> Sorry can you be more specific as to what fishy means? >> >> jay >> >> >> On Oct 11, 2015, at 4:04 PM, jerrysgarage01 >> wrote: >> >> Sounds a little fishy to me, is it a big residential or real small >> >> Jerry >> >> >> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone >> >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: Jay >> Date:10/11/2015 9:13 AM (GMT-10:00) >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pg&e meter reading >> >> I have a client who added some extra solar to an existing permitted >> approved install and didn't tell the utility. >> >> They don't think they are getting the added amount of $/kWh. >> >> Pg&e said that's true that they have to calibrate the meter for maximum >> sell back watts and it's set to low. >> >> I don't believe it. But anyone have anything to add? >> >> Jay >> >> Peltz power >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> ___________________________________________ >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > > Cordially, > > Nick Soleil > *Enphase Energy* | Field Applications Engineer > > office 707-763-4784 <%28707%29%20763.%204784> x7267 > cell 07-321-2937 > > > > *Powering What’s Next*™* | *The Enphase Energy Management System > > > > > > > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 > > California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 > > Texas Master Electrician #284451 > > > > “Don’t get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It’s just that I prefer fusion > to fission. And it just so happens that there’s an enormous fusion reactor > safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could > ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it’s wireless!” > > - William McDonough > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From garrison at solarserviceinc.com Wed Oct 14 15:25:25 2015 From: garrison at solarserviceinc.com (Garrison Riegel) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 14:25:25 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Racking for Steep Roofs Message-ID: <029101d106b6$145a1ec0$3d0e5c40$@solarserviceinc.com> Wrenches, Can anyone recommend a flush mount racking system for really steep roofs? I have two projects coming up on 15/12 (~51°) and none of the usual manufacturers we use for flush mounts (IronRidge XR, Unirac SolarMount, Schletter Solo, DPW Powerrail) can handle this apparently…at least according to their design tools and manuals. Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks, Garrison Garrison Riegel PV Operations Manager | Solar Service Inc [p] 847-677-0950 | garrison at solarserviceinc.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Oct 14 17:56:26 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 11:56:26 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Racking for Steep Roofs In-Reply-To: <029101d106b6$145a1ec0$3d0e5c40$@solarserviceinc.com> References: <029101d106b6$145a1ec0$3d0e5c40$@solarserviceinc.com> Message-ID: I would suggest calling unirac as it may be a software issue that uou are having but they will confirm eitherway Jerry On Oct 14, 2015 9:25 AM, "Garrison Riegel" wrote: > Wrenches, > > > > Can anyone recommend a flush mount racking system for really steep roofs? > I have two projects coming up on 15/12 (~51°) and none of the usual > manufacturers we use for flush mounts (IronRidge XR, Unirac SolarMount, > Schletter Solo, DPW Powerrail) can handle this apparently…at least > according to their design tools and manuals. > > > > Any advice would be much appreciated. > > > > Thanks, > > Garrison > > > > Garrison Riegel > > PV Operations Manager | *Solar Service Inc* > > > [p] 847-677-0950 | garrison at solarserviceinc.com > > > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmcpheeters at yahoo.com Wed Oct 14 20:39:09 2015 From: gmcpheeters at yahoo.com (Greg McPheeters) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 00:39:09 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Racking for Steep Roofs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1638044291.572161.1444869549535.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> SnapNrack standard engineering goes to 60 degree pitch Structural Engineering Letters | SnapNrack |   | |   | |   |   |   |   |   | | Structural Engineering Letters | SnapNrackSnapNrack Series 100 Complete Report_CA.pdf 4.96 MB SnapNrack Series 200 Complete Report_CA.pdf 6.14 MB Metal Roof Base Engineering Letter_CA.pdf 62.05 ... | | | | View on www.snapnrack.com | Preview by Yahoo | | | |   |  Greg McPheeters  From: Jerry Shafer To: RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 2:56 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Racking for Steep Roofs I would suggest calling unirac as it may be a software issue that uou are having but they will confirm eitherway JerryOn Oct 14, 2015 9:25 AM, "Garrison Riegel" wrote: Wrenches, Can anyone recommend a flush mount racking system for really steep roofs?  I have two projects coming up on 15/12 (~51°) and none of the usual manufacturers we use for flush mounts (IronRidge XR, Unirac SolarMount, Schletter Solo, DPW Powerrail) can handle this apparently…at least according to their design tools and manuals. Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks,Garrison  Garrison RiegelPV Operations Manager | Solar Service Inc[p] 847-677-0950 | garrison at solarserviceinc.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™      _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aram at aramsolar.com Wed Oct 14 20:39:22 2015 From: aram at aramsolar.com (Aram Alexander) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 17:39:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Racking for Steep Roofs In-Reply-To: References: <029101d106b6$145a1ec0$3d0e5c40$@solarserviceinc.com> Message-ID: Pro solar will work just fine. Aram > On Oct 14, 2015, at 2:56 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > I would suggest calling unirac as it may be a software issue that uou are having but they will confirm eitherway > Jerry > >> On Oct 14, 2015 9:25 AM, "Garrison Riegel" wrote: >> Wrenches, >> >> >> >> Can anyone recommend a flush mount racking system for really steep roofs? I have two projects coming up on 15/12 (~51°) and none of the usual manufacturers we use for flush mounts (IronRidge XR, Unirac SolarMount, Schletter Solo, DPW Powerrail) can handle this apparently…at least according to their design tools and manuals. >> >> >> >> Any advice would be much appreciated. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Garrison >> >> >> >> Garrison Riegel >> >> PV Operations Manager | Solar Service Inc >> >> [p] 847-677-0950 | garrison at solarserviceinc.com >> >> >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Wed Oct 14 21:44:35 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 19:44:35 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Follow Up to the 5 6V batteries in a 24V string Message-ID: <561F0503.8080007@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Wed Oct 14 21:22:11 2015 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 15:22:11 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo Message-ID: <050b01d106e7$eb8d40d0$c2a7c270$@com> Hola amigos y amigas. I'd appreciate feedback on the use of Tigo DC optimizers, specifically with the SMA TL line. Any good, bad or ugly stories to share? Mahalo, marco provision_highres_solar_logo2 with C-26351 Marco Mangelsdorf, President 69 Railroad Avenue, A-7 Hilo, Hawai'i 96720 (808) 969-3281, 934-7462 facsimile www.provision-solar.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5935 bytes Desc: not available URL: From roland at renewablenergy.com Wed Oct 14 23:42:51 2015 From: roland at renewablenergy.com (Roland Shackelford) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 17:42:51 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo In-Reply-To: <050b01d106e7$eb8d40d0$c2a7c270$@com> References: <050b01d106e7$eb8d40d0$c2a7c270$@com> Message-ID: Aloha Marco, We have been very happy with their operation and online monitoring capabilities. We have had DOA management units, but Tigo technical support has been accessible and replaced them with no difficulties. We have had no failures on module maximizers. Their ability to manage shading is impressive. We have used them in situations with broken strings across different orientations and with significant shading allowing a productive array, where with out them the system wouldn't of been practical. Mahalo, Roland Shackelford NABCEP CERTIFIED PV INSTALLER Vice President Renewable Energy Services (RES), Inc. 45-487 Lehua St. P.O. Box 1518 Honoka'a, HI 96727 Office: 808-775-7410 Fax: 808-775-7756 Mobile: *808-938-9239 * E-Mail: roland at renewablenergy.com www.renewablenergy.com *Privileged And Confidential Communication. This electronic transmission, and any documents attached hereto, (a) are protected by the Electronic Privacy Act (18 USC ?? 2510-2521), (b) may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information, and (c) are for the sole use of the intended recipient named above. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify the sender and delete the electronic message. Any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the contents of the information received in error is strictly prohibited. * *IRS Circular 230 Notice: Pursuant to the Internal Revenue Service requirements we inform you that, unless specifically indicated otherwise, any tax advise contained in this e-mail, including any attachments, is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, by the recipient or any other person for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties that may be imposed under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing, or recommending to another party any tax-related matter addressed herein. * On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 3:22 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: > Hola amigos y amigas. > > > > I’d appreciate feedback on the use of Tigo DC optimizers, specifically > with the SMA TL line. > > > > Any good, bad or ugly stories to share? > > > > Mahalo, > > marco > > > > [image: provision_highres_solar_logo2 with C-26351] > > Marco Mangelsdorf, President > 69 Railroad Avenue, A-7 > Hilo, Hawai'i 96720 > (808) 969-3281, 934-7462 facsimile > www.provision-solar.com > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5935 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kirk at vtsolar.com Thu Oct 15 08:22:39 2015 From: kirk at vtsolar.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 08:22:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] new type of overcurrent protection Message-ID: <000901d10744$2ef82540$8ce86fc0$@vtsolar.com> A local electrician found this disconnect "protecting" a 3-phase air handler. Commercial DYI - Vermont-style. Kirk Herander Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Proven PV provider since 1991 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 45543 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dahlsolar at gmail.com Thu Oct 15 11:33:13 2015 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Solar) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 10:33:13 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo In-Reply-To: <050b01d106e7$eb8d40d0$c2a7c270$@com> References: <050b01d106e7$eb8d40d0$c2a7c270$@com> Message-ID: <5142BCB6-D3C9-4652-BAA0-0C088ECB94AC@gmail.com> I've used them a few times and have them on my home due to a small shade issue. Like mentioned the monitoring is great, lots of data. Never had a problem with any parts. Jesse Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 14, 2015, at 8:22 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: > > Hola amigos y amigas. > > I’d appreciate feedback on the use of Tigo DC optimizers, specifically with the SMA TL line. > > Any good, bad or ugly stories to share? > > Mahalo, > marco > > > Marco Mangelsdorf, President > 69 Railroad Avenue, A-7 > Hilo, Hawai'i 96720 > (808) 969-3281, 934-7462 facsimile > www.provision-solar.com > > > > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5935 bytes Desc: not available URL: From garrison at solarserviceinc.com Thu Oct 15 15:50:21 2015 From: garrison at solarserviceinc.com (Garrison Riegel) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 14:50:21 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Racking for Steep Roofs In-Reply-To: References: <029101d106b6$145a1ec0$3d0e5c40$@solarserviceinc.com> Message-ID: <010d01d10782$c185cf50$44916df0$@solarserviceinc.com> Thanks for the responses. I called UniRac and IronRidge who both confirmed they max out at 45°. UniRac said anything over 45° is considered a wall and requires different testing and certification. They said the primary concern is the end clamp which holds the module by friction only. Mid clamps should hold no problem. They suggested getting an engineer to stamp a custom bolted end clamp solution and we should be good. I’ve been looking for a good excuse to try Snap n Rack… Thanks, Garrison From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Aram Alexander Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:39 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Racking for Steep Roofs Pro solar will work just fine. Aram On Oct 14, 2015, at 2:56 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: I would suggest calling unirac as it may be a software issue that uou are having but they will confirm eitherway Jerry On Oct 14, 2015 9:25 AM, "Garrison Riegel" > wrote: Wrenches, Can anyone recommend a flush mount racking system for really steep roofs? I have two projects coming up on 15/12 (~51°) and none of the usual manufacturers we use for flush mounts (IronRidge XR, Unirac SolarMount, Schletter Solo, DPW Powerrail) can handle this apparently…at least according to their design tools and manuals. Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks, Garrison Garrison Riegel PV Operations Manager | Solar Service Inc [p] 847-677-0950 | garrison at solarserviceinc.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Thu Oct 15 17:35:07 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 15:35:07 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] new type of overcurrent protection In-Reply-To: <000901d10744$2ef82540$8ce86fc0$@vtsolar.com> References: <000901d10744$2ef82540$8ce86fc0$@vtsolar.com> Message-ID: How about these inverter fuses! At least these might melt in a short circuit. On Oct 15, 2015, at 6:22 AM, Kirk Herander wrote: A local electrician found this disconnect “protecting” a 3-phase air handler. Commercial DYI – Vermont-style. Kirk Herander Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Proven PV provider since 1991 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2015-10-15 at 3.33.35 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 138102 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jeff at hudsonsolar.com Thu Oct 15 18:04:27 2015 From: jeff at hudsonsolar.com (Jeff Irish) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 22:04:27 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Racking for Steep Roofs In-Reply-To: <010d01d10782$c185cf50$44916df0$@solarserviceinc.com> References: <029101d106b6$145a1ec0$3d0e5c40$@solarserviceinc.com> <010d01d10782$c185cf50$44916df0$@solarserviceinc.com> Message-ID: <69ba0ede11cf451d9d9689a5470f125f@Hosted-MS-2.elcomp.local> Did you look at Unirac SunFrame? It uses shared rails and a continuous cap strip. The installers can also set the modules in the rail which is really nice on steep roofs. If you are in a freeze/thaw climate contact me off-line because there’s a subtle thermal contraction consideration to allow for. Jeff Irish Hudson Solar From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Garrison Riegel Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 3:50 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Racking for Steep Roofs Thanks for the responses. I called UniRac and IronRidge who both confirmed they max out at 45°. UniRac said anything over 45° is considered a wall and requires different testing and certification. They said the primary concern is the end clamp which holds the module by friction only. Mid clamps should hold no problem. They suggested getting an engineer to stamp a custom bolted end clamp solution and we should be good. I’ve been looking for a good excuse to try Snap n Rack… Thanks, Garrison From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Aram Alexander Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:39 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Racking for Steep Roofs Pro solar will work just fine. Aram On Oct 14, 2015, at 2:56 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: I would suggest calling unirac as it may be a software issue that uou are having but they will confirm eitherway Jerry On Oct 14, 2015 9:25 AM, "Garrison Riegel" > wrote: Wrenches, Can anyone recommend a flush mount racking system for really steep roofs? I have two projects coming up on 15/12 (~51°) and none of the usual manufacturers we use for flush mounts (IronRidge XR, Unirac SolarMount, Schletter Solo, DPW Powerrail) can handle this apparently…at least according to their design tools and manuals. Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks, Garrison Garrison Riegel PV Operations Manager | Solar Service Inc [p] 847-677-0950 | garrison at solarserviceinc.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Thu Oct 15 18:14:38 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 16:14:38 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Racking for Steep Roofs In-Reply-To: <010d01d10782$c185cf50$44916df0$@solarserviceinc.com> References: <029101d106b6$145a1ec0$3d0e5c40$@solarserviceinc.com> <010d01d10782$c185cf50$44916df0$@solarserviceinc.com> Message-ID: <5620254E.3090708@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Thu Oct 15 19:05:03 2015 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (Chris Daum) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 17:05:03 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGS sensitive battery charger In-Reply-To: <561754E4.7050403@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Dear people: I'm looking for an easy solution for battery charging off a generator, but trying to save the cost of a big inverter. I have a customer who needs to charge a 48V battery bank with a 30A charger off of a generator--but I need it to sense when the battery voltage is low, so that the "device" (charger) will automatically turn on the (2-wire start) generator and charge the batteries. I am trying to avoid the cost of, say, a Magnum 4448PAE with its AGS module, and just get a voltage sensitive battery charger. Is this doable? Any ideas? THANKS. Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 406-777-0830 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From windsine at gmail.com Thu Oct 15 19:20:52 2015 From: windsine at gmail.com (Roy Rakobitsch) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 18:20:52 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGS sensitive battery charger In-Reply-To: References: <561754E4.7050403@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: The midnite classic 250 can do this fine. Rectify the generator 110vac to around 165vdc and feed into classic. Use Aux functions to start and stop generator based on battery voltage or SOC %. Roy Rakobitsch NABCEP Certified Small Wind Installer® NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® Certified Advanced Tower Climbing, Safety & Rescue Wind/PV Design Engineer Windsine LLC 631-514-4166 www.windsine.org On Oct 15, 2015 6:15 PM, "Chris Daum" wrote: > Dear people: > > I'm looking for an easy solution for battery charging off a generator, but > trying to save the cost of a big inverter. I have a customer who needs to > charge a 48V battery bank with a 30A charger off of a generator--but I need > it to sense when the battery voltage is low, so that the "device" (charger) > will automatically turn on the (2-wire start) generator and charge the > batteries. I am trying to avoid the cost of, say, a Magnum 4448PAE with > its AGS module, and just get a voltage sensitive battery charger. Is this > doable? Any ideas? > > THANKS. > > > Chris Daum > Oasis Montana Inc. > 406-777-4309 > 406-777-0830 fax > www.oasismontana.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From boB at midnitesolar.com Thu Oct 15 19:28:39 2015 From: boB at midnitesolar.com (boB at midnitesolar.com) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 16:28:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGS sensitive battery charger In-Reply-To: References: <561754E4.7050403@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <562036A7.3080309@midnitesolar.com> We are not really advocating doing this. It can cause nightmares in service and support. If one really knows what they are doing, it can be done (and has been done) but mere mortals should not be attempting to do this. I would get a real AC to DC charger. If IOTA isn't good enough, maybe Magnum's is ready or did I hear that the big "X" has had one or two of these for quite some time now ? Power factor corrected even ? boB On 10/15/2015 4:20 PM, Roy Rakobitsch wrote: > > The midnite classic 250 can do this fine. Rectify the generator 110vac > to around 165vdc and feed into classic. Use Aux functions to start and > stop generator based on battery voltage or SOC %. > > Roy Rakobitsch > NABCEP Certified Small Wind Installer® > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® > Certified Advanced Tower Climbing, Safety & Rescue > Wind/PV Design Engineer > Windsine LLC > 631-514-4166 > www.windsine.org > > On Oct 15, 2015 6:15 PM, "Chris Daum" > wrote: > > Dear people: > I'm looking for an easy solution for battery charging off a > generator, but trying to save the cost of a big inverter. I have > a customer who needs to charge a 48V battery bank with a 30A > charger off of a generator--but I need it to sense when the > battery voltage is low, so that the "device" (charger) will > automatically turn on the (2-wire start) generator and charge the > batteries. I am trying to avoid the cost of, say, a Magnum > 4448PAE with its AGS module, and just get a voltage sensitive > battery charger. Is this doable? Any ideas? > THANKS. > > Chris Daum > Oasis Montana Inc. > 406-777-4309 > 406-777-0830 fax > www.oasismontana.com > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From info at windsine.org Thu Oct 15 19:45:51 2015 From: info at windsine.org (Windsine Inc.) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 18:45:51 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGS sensitive battery charger In-Reply-To: <562036A7.3080309@midnitesolar.com> References: <561754E4.7050403@sindelarsolar.com> <562036A7.3080309@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: Sorry boB, I retract my advice then :-) Ive done it fine (I do like to use big filter caps on the input to clean up ripple) and keep close tabs on whats going on. My listeroid has been running into an MX60 for many years (7 or 8 years) without issues at around 3kw into 48v bank, and has proved to be the most reliable way to couple a generator that I know of (for what its worth). On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 6:28 PM, boB at midnitesolar.com wrote: > > We are not really advocating doing this. It can cause nightmares in > service and support. > > If one really knows what they are doing, it can be done (and has been > done) but mere mortals should not > be attempting to do this. > > I would get a real AC to DC charger. If IOTA isn't good enough, maybe > Magnum's is > ready or did I hear that the big "X" has had one or two of these for > quite some time now ? > > Power factor corrected even ? > > boB > > > On 10/15/2015 4:20 PM, Roy Rakobitsch wrote: > > The midnite classic 250 can do this fine. Rectify the generator 110vac to > around 165vdc and feed into classic. Use Aux functions to start and stop > generator based on battery voltage or SOC %. > > Roy Rakobitsch > NABCEP Certified Small Wind Installer® > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® > Certified Advanced Tower Climbing, Safety & Rescue > Wind/PV Design Engineer > Windsine LLC > 631-514-4166 > www.windsine.org > On Oct 15, 2015 6:15 PM, "Chris Daum" wrote: > >> Dear people: >> >> I'm looking for an easy solution for battery charging off a generator, >> but trying to save the cost of a big inverter. I have a customer who needs >> to charge a 48V battery bank with a 30A charger off of a generator--but I >> need it to sense when the battery voltage is low, so that the "device" >> (charger) will automatically turn on the (2-wire start) generator and >> charge the batteries. I am trying to avoid the cost of, say, a Magnum >> 4448PAE with its AGS module, and just get a voltage sensitive battery >> charger. Is this doable? Any ideas? >> >> THANKS. >> >> >> Chris Daum >> Oasis Montana Inc. >> 406-777-4309 >> 406-777-0830 fax >> www.oasismontana.com >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Windsine Inc. PO Box 295 Westhampton, NY 11977 www.Windsine.org (631) 514-4166 This communication is for use by the intended recipient and contains information that may be privileged, confidential or copyrighted under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby formally notified that any use, copying or distribution of this e-mail, in whole or in part, is strictly prohibited. Please notify the sender by return e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system. Unless explicitly and conspicuously designated as "E-Contract Intended", this e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer. This e-mail does not constitute a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing purposes or for transfers of data to third parties. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From boB at midnitesolar.com Thu Oct 15 19:56:53 2015 From: boB at midnitesolar.com (boB at midnitesolar.com) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 16:56:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGS sensitive battery charger In-Reply-To: References: <561754E4.7050403@sindelarsolar.com> <562036A7.3080309@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: <56203D45.80109@midnitesolar.com> The industry needs a GOOD battery charger ! PFC and fully adjustable with battery shunt interface, gen-start, etc. That could be used for lots of installations like this one Chris is looking for. It's needed all the time. It's a no brainer what features it should have. I've wanted to do this here for quite a while but there have been too many irons in the fire as it is. boB On 10/15/2015 4:45 PM, Windsine Inc. wrote: > Sorry boB, I retract my advice then :-) > > Ive done it fine (I do like to use big filter caps on the input to > clean up ripple) and keep close tabs on whats going on. > > My listeroid has been running into an MX60 for many years (7 or 8 > years) without issues at around 3kw into 48v bank, and has proved to > be the most reliable way to couple a generator that I know of (for > what its worth). > > On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 6:28 PM, boB at midnitesolar.com > > wrote: > > > We are not really advocating doing this. It can cause nightmares > in service and support. > > If one really knows what they are doing, it can be done (and has > been done) but mere mortals should not > be attempting to do this. > > I would get a real AC to DC charger. If IOTA isn't good enough, > maybe Magnum's is > ready or did I hear that the big "X" has had one or two of these > for quite some time now ? > > Power factor corrected even ? > > boB > > > On 10/15/2015 4:20 PM, Roy Rakobitsch wrote: >> >> The midnite classic 250 can do this fine. Rectify the generator >> 110vac to around 165vdc and feed into classic. Use Aux functions >> to start and stop generator based on battery voltage or SOC %. >> >> Roy Rakobitsch >> NABCEP Certified Small Wind Installer® >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® >> Certified Advanced Tower Climbing, Safety & Rescue >> Wind/PV Design Engineer >> Windsine LLC >> 631-514-4166 >> www.windsine.org >> >> On Oct 15, 2015 6:15 PM, "Chris Daum" > > wrote: >> >> Dear people: >> I'm looking for an easy solution for battery charging off a >> generator, but trying to save the cost of a big inverter. I >> have a customer who needs to charge a 48V battery bank with a >> 30A charger off of a generator--but I need it to sense when >> the battery voltage is low, so that the "device" (charger) >> will automatically turn on the (2-wire start) generator and >> charge the batteries. I am trying to avoid the cost of, say, >> a Magnum 4448PAE with its AGS module, and just get a voltage >> sensitive battery charger. Is this doable? Any ideas? >> THANKS. >> >> Chris Daum >> Oasis Montana Inc. >> 406-777-4309 >> 406-777-0830 fax >> www.oasismontana.com >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > -- > Windsine Inc. > PO Box 295 > Westhampton, NY 11977 > www.Windsine.org > (631) 514-4166 > > This communication is for use by the intended recipient and contains > information that may be privileged, confidential or copyrighted under > applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby > formally notified that any use, copying or distribution of this > e-mail, in whole or in part, is strictly prohibited. Please notify the > sender by return e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system. > Unless explicitly and conspicuously designated as "E-Contract > Intended", this e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a > contract amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer. This e-mail > does not constitute a consent to the use of sender's contact > information for direct marketing purposes or for transfers of data to > third parties. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Thu Oct 15 19:51:22 2015 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (Chris Daum) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 17:51:22 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGS sensitive battery charger In-Reply-To: <562036A7.3080309@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: <8F4A5C3C84EB45CC85B9AFD5206FD711@OasisChris> Yes, but how do you integrate a sensor with an Iota? And I don't think they make a 30A (or higher would be fine, he's got a bigass generator) 48V charger.... I got ears, but I've never heard of such a thing. It just seems like a damn shame to buy a big inverter when I just need a decent charger with an AGS module! But I'm not technically inclined enough to rig some voltage-sensitive relay, or the like. --Chris @ the Oasis MT _____ From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of boB at midnitesolar.com Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 5:29 PM To: info at windsine.org; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AGS sensitive battery charger We are not really advocating doing this. It can cause nightmares in service and support. If one really knows what they are doing, it can be done (and has been done) but mere mortals should not be attempting to do this. I would get a real AC to DC charger. If IOTA isn't good enough, maybe Magnum's is ready or did I hear that the big "X" has had one or two of these for quite some time now ? Power factor corrected even ? boB On 10/15/2015 4:20 PM, Roy Rakobitsch wrote: The midnite classic 250 can do this fine. Rectify the generator 110vac to around 165vdc and feed into classic. Use Aux functions to start and stop generator based on battery voltage or SOC %. Roy Rakobitsch NABCEP Certified Small Wind InstallerR NABCEP Certified Solar PV InstallerR Certified Advanced Tower Climbing, Safety & Rescue Wind/PV Design Engineer Windsine LLC 631-514-4166 www.windsine.org On Oct 15, 2015 6:15 PM, "Chris Daum" wrote: Dear people: I'm looking for an easy solution for battery charging off a generator, but trying to save the cost of a big inverter. I have a customer who needs to charge a 48V battery bank with a 30A charger off of a generator--but I need it to sense when the battery voltage is low, so that the "device" (charger) will automatically turn on the (2-wire start) generator and charge the batteries. I am trying to avoid the cost of, say, a Magnum 4448PAE with its AGS module, and just get a voltage sensitive battery charger. Is this doable? Any ideas? THANKS. Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 406-777-0830 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bruce at mendocinosolar.com Thu Oct 15 20:12:29 2015 From: bruce at mendocinosolar.com (Bruce Erickson) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 17:12:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGS sensitive battery charger In-Reply-To: <8F4A5C3C84EB45CC85B9AFD5206FD711@OasisChris> References: <8F4A5C3C84EB45CC85B9AFD5206FD711@OasisChris> Message-ID: <9D363666-0C6B-4496-844C-C232AFE336F2@mendocinosolar.com> Wouldn't the Atkinson GSCM generator start module do what you need? It can send start and stop signals based on voltage. I'm not sure if those are still being made.http://atkinsonelectronics.com/manufacturing/product_pdfs/GSCM.pdf Bruce Erickson Mendocino Solar Service PO Box 1252 Mendocino, CA 95460 707-937-1701 707-937-1741 fax bruce at mendocinosolar.com Connecting Mendocino County to Solar Since 1994 On Oct 15, 2015, at 4:51 PM, Chris Daum wrote: > Yes, but how do you integrate a sensor with an Iota? And I don't think they make a 30A (or higher would be fine, he's got a bigass generator) 48V charger.... I got ears, but I've never heard of such a thing. It just seems like a damn shame to buy a big inverter when I just need a decent charger with an AGS module! But I'm not technically inclined enough to rig some voltage-sensitive relay, or the like. > > --Chris @ the Oasis MT > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of boB at midnitesolar.com > Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 5:29 PM > To: info at windsine.org; RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AGS sensitive battery charger > > > We are not really advocating doing this. It can cause nightmares in service and support. > > If one really knows what they are doing, it can be done (and has been done) but mere mortals should not > be attempting to do this. > > I would get a real AC to DC charger. If IOTA isn't good enough, maybe Magnum's is > ready or did I hear that the big "X" has had one or two of these for quite some time now ? > > Power factor corrected even ? > > boB > > > On 10/15/2015 4:20 PM, Roy Rakobitsch wrote: >> The midnite classic 250 can do this fine. Rectify the generator 110vac to around 165vdc and feed into classic. Use Aux functions to start and stop generator based on battery voltage or SOC %. >> >> Roy Rakobitsch >> NABCEP Certified Small Wind Installer® >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® >> Certified Advanced Tower Climbing, Safety & Rescue >> Wind/PV Design Engineer >> Windsine LLC >> 631-514-4166 >> www.windsine.org >> >> On Oct 15, 2015 6:15 PM, "Chris Daum" wrote: >> Dear people: >> >> I'm looking for an easy solution for battery charging off a generator, but trying to save the cost of a big inverter. I have a customer who needs to charge a 48V battery bank with a 30A charger off of a generator--but I need it to sense when the battery voltage is low, so that the "device" (charger) will automatically turn on the (2-wire start) generator and charge the batteries. I am trying to avoid the cost of, say, a Magnum 4448PAE with its AGS module, and just get a voltage sensitive battery charger. Is this doable? Any ideas? >> >> THANKS. >> >> Chris Daum >> Oasis Montana Inc. >> 406-777-4309 >> 406-777-0830 fax >> www.oasismontana.com >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bruce.g at ruralinzone.net Thu Oct 15 20:21:50 2015 From: bruce.g at ruralinzone.net (Bruce Geddes) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 13:21:50 +1300 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGS sensitive battery charger In-Reply-To: <8F4A5C3C84EB45CC85B9AFD5206FD711@OasisChris> References: <562036A7.3080309@midnitesolar.com> <8F4A5C3C84EB45CC85B9AFD5206FD711@OasisChris> Message-ID: <002401d107a8$b93d7d90$2bb878b0$@ruralinzone.net> What about the Morningstar Relay Driver? You could use one port as battery voltage sense, another to control the gene start relay, third to sense generator voltage and 4th to control AC relay via a timer to allow generator warmup time. Bruce Geddes Technical Director Freedom Energy Ltd Description: freedomEnergy smallwww.freedomenergy.co.nz From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Daum Sent: Friday, 16 October 2015 12:51 p.m. To: 'RE-wrenches'; info at windsine.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AGS sensitive battery charger Yes, but how do you integrate a sensor with an Iota? And I don't think they make a 30A (or higher would be fine, he's got a bigass generator) 48V charger.... I got ears, but I've never heard of such a thing. It just seems like a damn shame to buy a big inverter when I just need a decent charger with an AGS module! But I'm not technically inclined enough to rig some voltage-sensitive relay, or the like. --Chris @ the Oasis MT _____ From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of boB at midnitesolar.com Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 5:29 PM To: info at windsine.org; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AGS sensitive battery charger We are not really advocating doing this. It can cause nightmares in service and support. If one really knows what they are doing, it can be done (and has been done) but mere mortals should not be attempting to do this. I would get a real AC to DC charger. If IOTA isn't good enough, maybe Magnum's is ready or did I hear that the big "X" has had one or two of these for quite some time now ? Power factor corrected even ? boB On 10/15/2015 4:20 PM, Roy Rakobitsch wrote: The midnite classic 250 can do this fine. Rectify the generator 110vac to around 165vdc and feed into classic. Use Aux functions to start and stop generator based on battery voltage or SOC %. Roy Rakobitsch NABCEP Certified Small Wind InstallerR NABCEP Certified Solar PV InstallerR Certified Advanced Tower Climbing, Safety & Rescue Wind/PV Design Engineer Windsine LLC 631-514-4166 www.windsine.org On Oct 15, 2015 6:15 PM, "Chris Daum" wrote: Dear people: I'm looking for an easy solution for battery charging off a generator, but trying to save the cost of a big inverter. I have a customer who needs to charge a 48V battery bank with a 30A charger off of a generator--but I need it to sense when the battery voltage is low, so that the "device" (charger) will automatically turn on the (2-wire start) generator and charge the batteries. I am trying to avoid the cost of, say, a Magnum 4448PAE with its AGS module, and just get a voltage sensitive battery charger. Is this doable? Any ideas? THANKS. Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 406-777-0830 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 8827 bytes Desc: not available URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Thu Oct 15 20:41:50 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 18:41:50 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGS sensitive battery charger In-Reply-To: <56203D45.80109@midnitesolar.com> References: <561754E4.7050403@sindelarsolar.com> <562036A7.3080309@midnitesolar.com> <56203D45.80109@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: <85C1F67F-47D7-41D4-BD92-A82714CD5F9A@starlightsolar.com> Exactly! And fully programmable voltage, charge timers, equalization, etc. I’ve been begging Magnum Energy to do this. About 4 years ago they started telling me they were working on it. I guess they don’t realize how many are needed. I sell lots of Iota because I can tweak the voltage but that’s still primitive compared to what is really needed. Larry On Oct 15, 2015, at 5:56 PM, boB at midnitesolar.com wrote: The industry needs a GOOD battery charger ! PFC and fully adjustable with battery shunt interface, gen-start, etc. That could be used for lots of installations like this one Chris is looking for. It's needed all the time. It's a no brainer what features it should have. I've wanted to do this here for quite a while but there have been too many irons in the fire as it is. boB -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Thu Oct 15 21:07:01 2015 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 21:07:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Racking for Steep Roofs In-Reply-To: <010d01d10782$c185cf50$44916df0$@solarserviceinc.com> References: <029101d106b6$145a1ec0$3d0e5c40$@solarserviceinc.com> <010d01d10782$c185cf50$44916df0$@solarserviceinc.com> Message-ID: The SnapNRack universal end clamp isn't going to let go at any angle. It grip the rear module face against the real with tremendous force. https://www.google.com.ai/search?q=snapnrack+end+clamp&biw=800&bih=1232&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAYQ_AUoATgKahUKEwj0xoHz5MXIAhXMJh4KHZPYA9I#tbm=isch&q=snapnrack+universal+end+clamp&imgrc=IQW5e-_E64qdMM%3A On Oct 15, 2015 3:50 PM, "Garrison Riegel" wrote: > Thanks for the responses. > > > > I called UniRac and IronRidge who both confirmed they max out at 45°. > UniRac said anything over 45° is considered a wall and requires different > testing and certification. They said the primary concern is the end clamp > which holds the module by friction only. Mid clamps should hold no > problem. They suggested getting an engineer to stamp a custom bolted end > clamp solution and we should be good. > > > > I’ve been looking for a good excuse to try Snap n Rack… > > > > Thanks, > > Garrison > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Aram Alexander > *Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:39 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Racking for Steep Roofs > > > > Pro solar will work just fine. > > Aram > > > On Oct 14, 2015, at 2:56 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > > I would suggest calling unirac as it may be a software issue that uou are > having but they will confirm eitherway > Jerry > > On Oct 14, 2015 9:25 AM, "Garrison Riegel" > wrote: > > Wrenches, > > > > Can anyone recommend a flush mount racking system for really steep roofs? > I have two projects coming up on 15/12 (~51°) and none of the usual > manufacturers we use for flush mounts (IronRidge XR, Unirac SolarMount, > Schletter Solo, DPW Powerrail) can handle this apparently…at least > according to their design tools and manuals. > > > > Any advice would be much appreciated. > > > > Thanks, > > Garrison > > > > Garrison Riegel > > PV Operations Manager | *Solar Service Inc* > > > [p] 847-677-0950 | garrison at solarserviceinc.com > > > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Oct 16 04:01:47 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 22:01:47 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGS sensitive battery charger In-Reply-To: References: <561754E4.7050403@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Wrenches I have used 48 volt golf cart chargers, there are a variety of outputs Jerry On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 1:20 PM, Roy Rakobitsch wrote: > The midnite classic 250 can do this fine. Rectify the generator 110vac to > around 165vdc and feed into classic. Use Aux functions to start and stop > generator based on battery voltage or SOC %. > > Roy Rakobitsch > NABCEP Certified Small Wind Installer® > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® > Certified Advanced Tower Climbing, Safety & Rescue > Wind/PV Design Engineer > Windsine LLC > 631-514-4166 > www.windsine.org > On Oct 15, 2015 6:15 PM, "Chris Daum" wrote: > >> Dear people: >> >> I'm looking for an easy solution for battery charging off a generator, >> but trying to save the cost of a big inverter. I have a customer who needs >> to charge a 48V battery bank with a 30A charger off of a generator--but I >> need it to sense when the battery voltage is low, so that the "device" >> (charger) will automatically turn on the (2-wire start) generator and >> charge the batteries. I am trying to avoid the cost of, say, a Magnum >> 4448PAE with its AGS module, and just get a voltage sensitive battery >> charger. Is this doable? Any ideas? >> >> THANKS. >> >> >> Chris Daum >> Oasis Montana Inc. >> 406-777-4309 >> 406-777-0830 fax >> www.oasismontana.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From garrison at solarserviceinc.com Fri Oct 16 17:27:29 2015 From: garrison at solarserviceinc.com (Garrison Riegel) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 16:27:29 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Racking for Steep Roofs In-Reply-To: <5620254E.3090708@sindelarsolar.com> References: <029101d106b6$145a1ec0$3d0e5c40$@solarserviceinc.com> <010d01d10782$c185cf50$44916df0$@solarserviceinc.com> <5620254E.3090708@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <00df01d10859$76a966e0$63fc34a0$@solarserviceinc.com> Thanks Allan. I’ll see if I can get those values from IronRidge or UniRac. If not Pro Solar or SnapNrack look like they both could work well. Thanks again all. Garrison From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 5:15 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Racking for Steep Roofs Garrison, I'm here in a campground in the Emerald Triangle with Jeff Spies, who works for Quick Mount PV, and so I read him your message. He suggested that you take the engineering specs from UniRac and IronRidge to the AHJ, showing her pullout and shear capacities and calculate both for your site, including snow and wind loads. The maximum applied load should be less than the published working load rating. If the AHJ doesn't accept this approach, the next step is to get a structural engineer to review the same and wet-stamp the result. This legitimately gets around the manufacturers' certification issue on an individual case basis. Allan Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell On 10/15/2015 1:50 PM, Garrison Riegel wrote: Thanks for the responses. I called UniRac and IronRidge who both confirmed they max out at 45°. UniRac said anything over 45° is considered a wall and requires different testing and certification. They said the primary concern is the end clamp which holds the module by friction only. Mid clamps should hold no problem. They suggested getting an engineer to stamp a custom bolted end clamp solution and we should be good. I’ve been looking for a good excuse to try Snap n Rack Thanks, Garrison From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Aram Alexander Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:39 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Racking for Steep Roofs Pro solar will work just fine. Aram On Oct 14, 2015, at 2:56 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: I would suggest calling unirac as it may be a software issue that uou are having but they will confirm eitherway Jerry On Oct 14, 2015 9:25 AM, "Garrison Riegel" > wrote: Wrenches, Can anyone recommend a flush mount racking system for really steep roofs? I have two projects coming up on 15/12 (~51°) and none of the usual manufacturers we use for flush mounts (IronRidge XR, Unirac SolarMount, Schletter Solo, DPW Powerrail) can handle this apparently at least according to their design tools and manuals. Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks, Garrison Garrison Riegel PV Operations Manager | Solar Service Inc [p] 847-677-0950 | garrison at solarserviceinc.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Oct 16 17:54:27 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 14:54:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Racking for Steep Roofs In-Reply-To: <00df01d10859$76a966e0$63fc34a0$@solarserviceinc.com> References: <029101d106b6$145a1ec0$3d0e5c40$@solarserviceinc.com> <010d01d10782$c185cf50$44916df0$@solarserviceinc.com> <5620254E.3090708@sindelarsolar.com> <00df01d10859$76a966e0$63fc34a0$@solarserviceinc.com> Message-ID: <9E965616-B89A-4E7C-A457-CFF0693CEEB5@gmail.com> Unirac used to come with a small bolt set to "lock" the end clamps. They seemed to have stopped sending them some ago however. Jay Peltz power. Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 16, 2015, at 2:27 PM, Garrison Riegel wrote: > > Thanks Allan. I’ll see if I can get those values from IronRidge or UniRac. If not Pro Solar or SnapNrack look like they both could work well. > > Thanks again all. > > Garrison > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar > Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 5:15 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Racking for Steep Roofs > > Garrison, > I'm here in a campground in the Emerald Triangle with Jeff Spies, who works for Quick Mount PV, and so I read him your message. He suggested that you take the engineering specs from UniRac and IronRidge to the AHJ, showing her pullout and shear capacities and calculate both for your site, including snow and wind loads. The maximum applied load should be less than the published working load rating. > > If the AHJ doesn't accept this approach, the next step is to get a structural engineer to review the same and wet-stamp the result. > > This legitimately gets around the manufacturers' certification issue on an individual case basis. > > Allan > > Allan Sindelar > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > 505 780-2738 cell > > > On 10/15/2015 1:50 PM, Garrison Riegel wrote: > Thanks for the responses. > > I called UniRac and IronRidge who both confirmed they max out at 45°. UniRac said anything over 45° is considered a wall and requires different testing and certification. They said the primary concern is the end clamp which holds the module by friction only. Mid clamps should hold no problem. They suggested getting an engineer to stamp a custom bolted end clamp solution and we should be good. > > I’ve been looking for a good excuse to try Snap n Rack… > > Thanks, > Garrison > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Aram Alexander > Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:39 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Racking for Steep Roofs > > Pro solar will work just fine. > > Aram > > On Oct 14, 2015, at 2:56 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > I would suggest calling unirac as it may be a software issue that uou are having but they will confirm eitherway > Jerry > > On Oct 14, 2015 9:25 AM, "Garrison Riegel" wrote: > Wrenches, > > Can anyone recommend a flush mount racking system for really steep roofs? I have two projects coming up on 15/12 (~51°) and none of the usual manufacturers we use for flush mounts (IronRidge XR, Unirac SolarMount, Schletter Solo, DPW Powerrail) can handle this apparently…at least according to their design tools and manuals. > > Any advice would be much appreciated. > > Thanks, > Garrison > > Garrison Riegel > PV Operations Manager | Solar Service Inc > [p] 847-677-0950 | garrison at solarserviceinc.com > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From howie at suncatchervt.com Tue Oct 20 12:01:01 2015 From: howie at suncatchervt.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 12:01:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator backfeeding enphase? Message-ID: Does anyone think that there is no issue with having enphase potentially backfeeding a backup generator? We almost always will tie in upstream of a generator transfer switch, but a competitor is telling clients with an enphase system there is no concern. Am I missing something? Thanks, Howie Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Catamount Solar Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner http://www.CatamountSolar.com 802-272-0004 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Tue Oct 20 12:25:57 2015 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 12:25:57 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator backfeeding enphase? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: He's wrong. Any inverter system will try to raise the voltage of the system, that's how grid tied inverters feed power to the load. With the utility grid, there is no issue as the inverter cannot move the voltage any significant amount (unless there is a high resistance point). With a generator which is also trying to feed the same load, as the inverter's output power comes close to the load, the voltage will rise and the generator's AVR will get confused. It will reduce the excitation to the alternator and will likely start to motor if the inverter's power output exceed the load. The generator can shut down if the the system voltage exceeds the high voltage setpoint, and other bad things can happen such as damage to the AVR and stator windings. There's no real way to know what will happen. In many cases where the load exceeds the inverter output, nothing bad happens, but it's a crap shoot. On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 12:01 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: > Does anyone think that there is no issue with having enphase potentially > backfeeding a backup generator? We almost always will tie in upstream of a > generator transfer switch, but a competitor is telling clients with an > enphase system there is no concern. Am I missing something? > > Thanks, > Howie > Howie Michaelson > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > > Catamount Solar > Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service > VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner > http://www.CatamountSolar.com > 802-272-0004 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Oct 20 12:37:15 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 09:37:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator backfeeding enphase? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don’t think you are missing anything. jay > On Oct 20, 2015, at 9:01 AM, Howie Michaelson wrote: > > Does anyone think that there is no issue with having enphase potentially backfeeding a backup generator? We almost always will tie in upstream of a generator transfer switch, but a competitor is telling clients with an enphase system there is no concern. Am I missing something? > > Thanks, > Howie > Howie Michaelson > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > > Catamount Solar > Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service > VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner > http://www.CatamountSolar.com > 802-272-0004 > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Tue Oct 20 12:28:25 2015 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 12:28:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator backfeeding enphase? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: While we are discussing this, I have a suggestion. We are using the Generac Smart Management Module as a load management unit for generators. It automatically senses that the power is coming from the generator. It has a lock out mode, so it can be used to disconnect the inverter(s) when the generator is running without needing any wiring. I anticipate this to save a lot of cost and allow a more robust system when combining generators and inverters. On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 12:25 PM, Chris Mason wrote: > He's wrong. Any inverter system will try to raise the voltage of the > system, that's how grid tied inverters feed power to the load. With the > utility grid, there is no issue as the inverter cannot move the voltage any > significant amount (unless there is a high resistance point). With a > generator which is also trying to feed the same load, as the inverter's > output power comes close to the load, the voltage will rise and the > generator's AVR will get confused. It will reduce the excitation to the > alternator and will likely start to motor if the inverter's power output > exceed the load. The generator can shut down if the the system voltage > exceeds the high voltage setpoint, and other bad things can happen such as > damage to the AVR and stator windings. There's no real way to know what > will happen. In many cases where the load exceeds the inverter output, > nothing bad happens, but it's a crap shoot. > > On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 12:01 PM, Howie Michaelson > wrote: > >> Does anyone think that there is no issue with having enphase potentially >> backfeeding a backup generator? We almost always will tie in upstream of a >> generator transfer switch, but a competitor is telling clients with an >> enphase system there is no concern. Am I missing something? >> >> Thanks, >> Howie >> Howie Michaelson >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >> >> Catamount Solar >> Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service >> VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner >> http://www.CatamountSolar.com >> 802-272-0004 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > Chris Mason > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Design Engineer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > www.cometsolar.com > 264.235.5670 > 869.662.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Oct 20 12:09:07 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 06:09:07 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator backfeeding enphase? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I dont see that its any different than any other inverters, we will not tie a genny in to a GT inverter without batteries. I hear all kind of reasons that one might do this but i have not seen good results. Jerry On Oct 20, 2015 6:01 AM, "Howie Michaelson" wrote: > Does anyone think that there is no issue with having enphase potentially > backfeeding a backup generator? We almost always will tie in upstream of a > generator transfer switch, but a competitor is telling clients with an > enphase system there is no concern. Am I missing something? > > Thanks, > Howie > Howie Michaelson > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > > Catamount Solar > Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service > VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner > http://www.CatamountSolar.com > 802-272-0004 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From LHoffstatter at sunstruckconsulting.com Tue Oct 20 14:25:51 2015 From: LHoffstatter at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 18:25:51 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator backfeeding enphase? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We have tied in the PV to operate when the generator is operating, but only on a very large generator when the PV output was very small compared to both generator output and load (in which case it apparently looked like a reduction in load the to the genset, and actually saved some fuel). But I agree that there is significant potential for damage to the generator controls, etc., and would not validate or recommend it. Solectria has a nice white paper on the subject: http://solarprofessional.com/articles/products-equipment/inverters/q-a-interaction-of-grid-direct-inverters-with-backup Also, discussions we’ve had with Enphase have been that it may be possible but would void the inverter warranty, which may well be the case with other inverter manufacturers. Best regards, Lloyd Hoffstatter NABCEP PV Installer, NY-Sun trainer From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2015 12:37 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator backfeeding enphase? I don’t think you are missing anything. jay On Oct 20, 2015, at 9:01 AM, Howie Michaelson > wrote: Does anyone think that there is no issue with having enphase potentially backfeeding a backup generator? We almost always will tie in upstream of a generator transfer switch, but a competitor is telling clients with an enphase system there is no concern. Am I missing something? Thanks, Howie Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Catamount Solar Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner http://www.CatamountSolar.com 802-272-0004 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dyoung at dovetailsolar.com Tue Oct 20 14:49:40 2015 From: dyoung at dovetailsolar.com (Daniel Young) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 14:49:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator backfeeding enphase? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01cc01d10b68$13e3de20$3bab9a60$@com> I still run under the assumption that if the solar generation ever exceeds building demand in these situations, the building voltage will spike up to the high voltage cutout of the inverter (unless the generator has the capability to try to “motor” to bring the voltage back down), then the voltage will return to normal. The system will wait 5 min (as if there were a grid fault, then return), then attempt to re-connect. If the solar generation is still in excess of the demand, the inverters will cycle again. This essentially is short cycling the inverters. Or if the generator circuitry is trying too hard to pull the voltage back down, it could damage the generator, but it depends on the size/type of genny. Like has been said already, it’s a crap shoot. Will it kill the inverters quickly…..I doubt it. Will they have voided the warranty….I’d almost guarantee it. The new Envoy S has some more advanced features though, so It may be able to monitor production vs demand and force the array to throttle back to prevent this from happening. I’m not familiar enough with the product to say one way or the other. I imagine it would have to be capable of reacting very quickly though to prevent issues (say, if your electric clothes dryer finished it’s cycle, changing you from needing 2kW of generator to supplement PV to all of a sudden having 2kw too much PV). With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Howie Michaelson Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2015 12:01 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator backfeeding enphase? Does anyone think that there is no issue with having enphase potentially backfeeding a backup generator? We almost always will tie in upstream of a generator transfer switch, but a competitor is telling clients with an enphase system there is no concern. Am I missing something? Thanks, Howie Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Catamount Solar Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner http://www.CatamountSolar.com 802-272-0004 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirk at vtsolar.com Tue Oct 20 14:16:07 2015 From: kirk at vtsolar.com (Kirk) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 14:16:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator backfeeding enphase? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It depends on the inverter kw output vs the generator kw. Solaredge recommends the generator peak / inverter peak kw ratio be above a certain ratio. You definitely don't want that ratio to be less than 1. I'll have to look up in my notes what that ratio is. The rationale is in my notes also. Kirk Herander VSE Sent from a job site somewhere > On Oct 20, 2015, at 12:01 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: > > Does anyone think that there is no issue with having enphase potentially backfeeding a backup generator? We almost always will tie in upstream of a generator transfer switch, but a competitor is telling clients with an enphase system there is no concern. Am I missing something? > > Thanks, > Howie > Howie Michaelson > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > > Catamount Solar > Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service > VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner > http://www.CatamountSolar.com > 802-272-0004 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Tue Oct 20 14:52:46 2015 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 14:52:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator backfeeding enphase? In-Reply-To: <01cc01d10b68$13e3de20$3bab9a60$@com> References: <01cc01d10b68$13e3de20$3bab9a60$@com> Message-ID: You won't hurt the inverters, they don't care, it is the generator's alternator you have to worry about. The generator will motor, that's how alternators work, and the AVR will shut down trying to lower the excitation to reduce the over-voltage it thinks it is responsible for. You can probably try it and see, it is unlikely to do harm initially. On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 2:49 PM, Daniel Young wrote: > I still run under the assumption that if the solar generation ever exceeds > building demand in these situations, the building voltage will spike up to > the high voltage cutout of the inverter (unless the generator has the > capability to try to “motor” to bring the voltage back down), then the > voltage will return to normal. The system will wait 5 min (as if there were > a grid fault, then return), then attempt to re-connect. If the solar > generation is still in excess of the demand, the inverters will cycle > again. This essentially is short cycling the inverters. Or if the generator > circuitry is trying too hard to pull the voltage back down, it could damage > the generator, but it depends on the size/type of genny. Like has been said > already, it’s a crap shoot. > > > > Will it kill the inverters quickly…..I doubt it. Will they have voided the > warranty….I’d almost guarantee it. > > > > The new Envoy S has some more advanced features though, so It *may* be > able to monitor production vs demand and force the array to throttle back > to prevent this from happening. I’m not familiar enough with the product to > say one way or the other. I imagine it would have to be capable of reacting > very quickly though to prevent issues (say, if your electric clothes dryer > finished it’s cycle, changing you from needing 2kW of generator to > supplement PV to all of a sudden having 2kw too much PV). > > > > With Regards, > > > > Daniel Young, > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Howie Michaelson > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 20, 2015 12:01 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Generator backfeeding enphase? > > > > Does anyone think that there is no issue with having enphase potentially > backfeeding a backup generator? We almost always will tie in upstream of a > generator transfer switch, but a competitor is telling clients with an > enphase system there is no concern. Am I missing something? > > Thanks, > Howie > Howie Michaelson > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > > Catamount Solar > Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service > VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner > http://www.CatamountSolar.com > 802-272-0004 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirk at vtsolar.com Tue Oct 20 15:25:25 2015 From: kirk at vtsolar.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 15:25:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator backfeeding enphase? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008a01d10b6d$13148df0$393da9d0$@vtsolar.com> I posed this question to Solaredge last year. Basically the (Solaredge at least) inverter will not connect unless the generator frequency is within normal grid tolerance, which would be rare with a typical house generator. But if it did connect, and the generator kw were less than the inverter kw, it could potentially turn the alternator into a motor, spinning it backwards. Kirk Herander Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Proven PV provider since 1991 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Howie Michaelson Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2015 12:01 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator backfeeding enphase? Does anyone think that there is no issue with having enphase potentially backfeeding a backup generator? We almost always will tie in upstream of a generator transfer switch, but a competitor is telling clients with an enphase system there is no concern. Am I missing something? Thanks, Howie Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Catamount Solar Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner http://www.CatamountSolar.com 802-272-0004 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Tue Oct 20 19:16:14 2015 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 19:16:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator backfeeding enphase? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5BF97489-BAC8-4B5E-A58D-AB054BB9A999@swnl.net> I guess that am missing something..... I have yet to see a generator that is available to most home owners that will meet the required AC voltage & Hzs to latch onto any grid tied inverter. On Oct 20, 2015, at 12:37 PM, jay wrote: > I don’t think you are missing anything. > jay > >> On Oct 20, 2015, at 9:01 AM, Howie Michaelson wrote: >> >> Does anyone think that there is no issue with having enphase potentially backfeeding a backup generator? We almost always will tie in upstream of a generator transfer switch, but a competitor is telling clients with an enphase system there is no concern. Am I missing something? >> >> Thanks, >> Howie >> Howie Michaelson >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >> >> Catamount Solar >> Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service >> VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner >> http://www.CatamountSolar.com >> 802-272-0004 >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Wed Oct 21 09:58:12 2015 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 09:58:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SB6000U Derating Mode Message-ID: Hi All, Is anyone familiar with the wiring in the old Sunny Boy U inverters? We have got a call from someone who has one where the temperature sensor has gone bad, and it is always in derating mode. It derates so much that it can only produce about .1W, even if it is cool out. The inverter is located inside a barn, and has been cleaned. The inverter is also past warranty. Anyone have any wiring diagrams for this kind of inverter? Or any suggestions as to how to bypass the temperature sensor, or change the programming so that it does not derate anymore? Anything would be useful, as the alternative is to just get a whole new inverter. Cheers, Dave *--* *Dave Tedeyan* *Project Engineer* *Taitem Engineering, PC* 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 www.taitem.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Wed Oct 21 07:24:53 2015 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 07:24:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator backfeeding enphase? In-Reply-To: <5BF97489-BAC8-4B5E-A58D-AB054BB9A999@swnl.net> References: <5BF97489-BAC8-4B5E-A58D-AB054BB9A999@swnl.net> Message-ID: That trends to be the saving grace for most installations, however in the islands, we modify the inverter parameters to accept poor quality power. Our inverters will connect to most decent generators. On Oct 20, 2015 7:16 PM, "Tump" wrote: > I guess that am missing something..... I have yet to see a generator that > is available to most home owners that will meet the required AC voltage & > Hzs to latch onto any grid tied inverter. > On Oct 20, 2015, at 12:37 PM, jay wrote: > > I don’t think you are missing anything. > jay > > On Oct 20, 2015, at 9:01 AM, Howie Michaelson > wrote: > > Does anyone think that there is no issue with having enphase potentially > backfeeding a backup generator? We almost always will tie in upstream of a > generator transfer switch, but a competitor is telling clients with an > enphase system there is no concern. Am I missing something? > > Thanks, > Howie > Howie Michaelson > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > > Catamount Solar > Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service > VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner > http://www.CatamountSolar.com > 802-272-0004 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > *Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net* > Solarwinds Northernlights > * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* > * 207-832-7574 <207-832-7574> Cl. 610-517-8401 > <610-517-8401> * > *Blair "TUMP" May* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * * > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Oct 21 09:57:18 2015 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 09:57:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator backfeeding enphase? In-Reply-To: <5BF97489-BAC8-4B5E-A58D-AB054BB9A999@swnl.net> References: <5BF97489-BAC8-4B5E-A58D-AB054BB9A999@swnl.net> Message-ID: <20151021135726.581EF564057@homiemail-a59.g.dreamhost.com> Several years ago, An inverter tech support person claimed that the system voltage would go above the inverter cutoff point and shut down the inverter. How high a voltage is needed to get a generator to motor? At 07:16 PM 10/20/2015, you wrote: >I guess that am missing something..... I have >yet to see a generator that is available to most >home owners that will meet the required AC >voltage & Hzs to latch onto any grid tied inverter. >On Oct 20, 2015, at 12:37 PM, jay wrote: > >>I don’t think you are missing anything. >>jay >> >>>On Oct 20, 2015, at 9:01 AM, Howie Michaelson >>><howie at suncatchervt.com> wrote: >>> >>>Does anyone think that there is no issue with >>>having enphase potentially backfeeding a >>>backup generator? We almost always will tie in >>>upstream of a generator transfer switch, but a >>>competitor is telling clients with an enphase >>>system there is no concern. Am I missing something? >>> >>>Thanks, >>>Howie >>>Howie Michaelson >>>NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >>> >>>Catamount Solar >>>Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service >>>VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner >>>http://www.CatamountSolar.com >>>802-272-0004 >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >>List Address: >>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >>Change listserver email address & settings: >>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >>List-Archive: >>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >>List rules & etiquette: >>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >>Check out or update participant bios: >>www.members.re-wrenches.org > >>Tump at swnl.net >>www.SWNL.net >> Solarwinds Northernlights >> Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California >> 207-832-7574 Cl. >> 610-517-8401 >> Blair "TUMP" May >> >> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" >> >> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From louis at solarcowboyz.com Wed Oct 21 11:04:46 2015 From: louis at solarcowboyz.com (louis at solarcowboyz.com) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 08:04:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Generator_backfeeding_enphase=3F?= Message-ID: <20151021080446.9cbc0dcf5f80a0dc982e07761d51a7ae.2641f01655.wbe@email05.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Wed Oct 21 13:15:56 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 10:15:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator backfeeding enphase? In-Reply-To: <5BF97489-BAC8-4B5E-A58D-AB054BB9A999@swnl.net> References: <5BF97489-BAC8-4B5E-A58D-AB054BB9A999@swnl.net> Message-ID: <170D0959-6DEA-4F09-8009-A07AA0F31006@starlightsolar.com> I have a customer with a China Diesel 40kW generator that will sync up with 3 Fronius inverters and 17kW of PV's. A few years ago he had to run for a week like this. Each day the inverters would sync up, no problems. Larry Crutcher On Oct 20, 2015, at 4:16 PM, Tump wrote: I guess that am missing something..... I have yet to see a generator that is available to most home owners that will meet the required AC voltage & Hzs to latch onto any grid tied inverter. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From howie at suncatchervt.com Wed Oct 21 14:12:30 2015 From: howie at suncatchervt.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 14:12:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator backfeeding enphase? In-Reply-To: References: <5BF97489-BAC8-4B5E-A58D-AB054BB9A999@swnl.net> Message-ID: Thanks all for the detailed explanations as to why backfeeding a generator is a potential problem. Tump, I think in general, that is often the case, but I have seen regular grid tie inverters pickup some average generators. The bottom line is do we want to take the risk, even if small, of owning a blown generator. We have in most cases chosen to avoid this possibility by either tying in above the automatic transfer switch, or putting a relay in that disconnects the inverter when the generator connects to the house. If someone wants to take on that risk, that is their own decision. I just object when the installer is not upfront about the potential problem. Howie On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 7:24 AM, Chris Mason wrote: > That trends to be the saving grace for most installations, however in > the islands, we modify the inverter parameters to accept poor quality > power. Our inverters will connect to most decent generators. > On Oct 20, 2015 7:16 PM, "Tump" wrote: > >> I guess that am missing something..... I have yet to see a generator that >> is available to most home owners that will meet the required AC voltage & >> Hzs to latch onto any grid tied inverter. >> On Oct 20, 2015, at 12:37 PM, jay wrote: >> >> I don’t think you are missing anything. >> jay >> >> On Oct 20, 2015, at 9:01 AM, Howie Michaelson >> wrote: >> >> Does anyone think that there is no issue with having enphase potentially >> backfeeding a backup generator? We almost always will tie in upstream of a >> generator transfer switch, but a competitor is telling clients with an >> enphase system there is no concern. Am I missing something? >> >> Thanks, >> Howie >> Howie Michaelson >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >> >> Catamount Solar >> Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service >> VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner >> http://www.CatamountSolar.com >> 802-272-0004 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> *Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net* >> Solarwinds Northernlights >> * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* >> * 207-832-7574 <207-832-7574> Cl. 610-517-8401 >> <610-517-8401> * >> *Blair "TUMP" May* >> >> >> * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * * >> NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* >> >> >> * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** >> Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From louis at solarcowboyz.com Wed Oct 21 11:22:08 2015 From: louis at solarcowboyz.com (louis at solarcowboyz.com) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 08:22:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SB6000U Derating Mode Message-ID: <20151021082208.9cbc0dcf5f80a0dc982e07761d51a7ae.dfd1f10299.wbe@email05.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Wed Oct 21 16:48:03 2015 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 16:48:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Double Lug Disco Message-ID: Wrenchers, A customer is having new services put in and wants to prep for solar. Does anyone know of, or have recommendations, on a 200A non fused NEMA disco that they can install so we can easily interconnect on the loadside when we are ready to put the solar in? I thought I had heard somewhere of a disco that already had double lugs on it? If not, does anyone know what manufacturers let you double lug. Thanks Adam Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies 4872 State Route 9G Germantown NY, 12526 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Oct 21 18:38:20 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 18:38:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SB6000U Derating Mode In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I recently replaced a SB1800U with a refurbished model, but Solar Cowboyz did a good job of phone advice first, then bench diagnosis. It turned out to be electrolytic caps leaking onto the board and causing etching. You might get some help there. I found them competent, if not a little slow and difficult to deal with (slow service). http://www.shop.solarcowboyzoutlet.com/Inverter-Repair-Service-Inverter-Repair-Service.htm ​Jason Szumlanski ​ On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 9:58 AM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Hi All, > > Is anyone familiar with the wiring in the old Sunny Boy U inverters? We > have got a call from someone who has one where the temperature sensor has > gone bad, and it is always in derating mode. It derates so much that it can > only produce about .1W, even if it is cool out. > > The inverter is located inside a barn, and has been cleaned. The inverter > is also past warranty. > > Anyone have any wiring diagrams for this kind of inverter? Or any > suggestions as to how to bypass the temperature sensor, or change the > programming so that it does not derate anymore? Anything would be useful, > as the alternative is to just get a whole new inverter. > > Cheers, > Dave > > *--* > > > *Dave Tedeyan* > *Project Engineer* > > *Taitem Engineering, PC* > 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 > Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 > www.taitem.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Oct 21 20:01:36 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 17:01:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Double Lug Disco In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45A8CEDE-9845-42AF-A9F5-7A4336D30CA3@gmail.com> HI Adam, If you needs don’t exceed 100 amps, then a solar ready load center is what I’d recommend. This will give you a 40 amp into the main buss. And a 60 amp not on the main buss. 100 amp total. google: solar ready ac load centers jay > On Oct 21, 2015, at 1:48 PM, AE Solar wrote: > > Wrenchers, > A customer is having new services put in and wants to prep for solar. Does anyone know of, or have recommendations, on a 200A non fused NEMA disco that they can install so we can easily interconnect on the loadside when we are ready to put the solar in? > I thought I had heard somewhere of a disco that already had double lugs on it? If not, does anyone know what manufacturers let you double lug. Thanks > Adam > > Adam Katzman > Autonomous Energies > 4872 State Route 9G > Germantown NY, 12526 > www.autonomousenergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swingjunkie at gmail.com Thu Oct 22 10:59:01 2015 From: swingjunkie at gmail.com (Carl Adams) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 10:59:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Can anyone identify this mounting system and module Message-ID: I have not been onsite but was sent some photos. This system needs removed for reroofing. I am not familiar which this mounting hardware/module. Pictures attached. Thanks Carl Adams SunRock Solar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Forward Edge mounting-sm.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 249874 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Upper edge mounting and conduit_sm.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 227458 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Module dimension_sm.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 197346 bytes Desc: not available URL: From garrison at solarserviceinc.com Thu Oct 22 11:10:23 2015 From: garrison at solarserviceinc.com (Garrison Riegel) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 10:10:23 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Can anyone identify this mounting system and module In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00a601d10cdb$c69a7f00$53cf7d00$@solarserviceinc.com> It looks like the Westinghouse AC module system. Pretty sure these are no longer available. Garrison Riegel PV Operations Manager | Solar Service Inc [p] 847-677-0950 | garrison at solarserviceinc.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Carl Adams Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 9:59 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Can anyone identify this mounting system and module I have not been onsite but was sent some photos. This system needs removed for reroofing. I am not familiar which this mounting hardware/module. Pictures attached. Thanks Carl Adams SunRock Solar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Thu Oct 22 11:15:05 2015 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 10:15:05 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rolls batteries Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, Anyone using Rolls Surrette batteries? Happy with them? Worth the extra $$$? Thanks for the feedback, Kris -- Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installer Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Thu Oct 22 11:24:47 2015 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 11:24:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rolls batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5628FFBF.3040205@entech-engineering.com> They have been reliable. I think they are worth it. Chris On 10/22/2015 11:15 AM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > Anyone using Rolls Surrette batteries? Happy with them? Worth the > extra $$$? > > Thanks for the feedback, > Kris > > -- > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 864 Clam Falls Trail > Frederic, WI 54837 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel, President ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 100 bytes Desc: not available URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Thu Oct 22 11:28:03 2015 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 08:28:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rolls batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1445527683.12852394@webmail.finestplanet.com> i have a set of their fc420's flooded, lead calcium... which is (imo) the perfect battery for grid tie with battery backup. i add water every other year, and equalize every 6 months. these are from 2008 and still going strong. another system i have has a 1986 vintage set (made by "globe battery") and they are still working fine too, so maybe this is more about the specific battery chemistry than manufacturer? todd On Thursday, October 22, 2015 8:15am, "Kristopher Schmid" said: Hi Wrenches, Anyone using Rolls Surrette batteries? Happy with them? Worth the extra $$$? Thanks for the feedback,Kris -- Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 [ www.legacysolar.com ]( http://www.legacysolar.com/ ) 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installer Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Oct 22 11:40:22 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 05:40:22 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rolls batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes i have and i have been happy performance vs cost Jerry On Oct 22, 2015 5:15 AM, "Kristopher Schmid" wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > Anyone using Rolls Surrette batteries? Happy with them? Worth the extra > $$$? > > Thanks for the feedback, > Kris > > -- > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 864 Clam Falls Trail > Frederic, WI 54837 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From howie at suncatchervt.com Thu Oct 22 12:36:54 2015 From: howie at suncatchervt.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 12:36:54 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rolls batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We use Rolls almost exclusively. We've had occasional failures, but in general they are very rugged, and stand up to a great deal of abuse (speaking from the perspective of being one of my own worst clients that way). Howie Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Catamount Solar Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner http://www.CatamountSolar.com 802-272-0004 On Oct 22, 2015 11:15 AM, "Kristopher Schmid" wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > Anyone using Rolls Surrette batteries? Happy with them? Worth the extra > $$$? > > Thanks for the feedback, > Kris > > -- > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 864 Clam Falls Trail > Frederic, WI 54837 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From howie at suncatchervt.com Thu Oct 22 12:39:01 2015 From: howie at suncatchervt.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 12:39:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rolls batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As a caveat, I would add that we do not use their T12250 batteries. For some reason, they have not been nearly as reliable as any of their other batteries we have used. Howie Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Catamount Solar Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner http://www.CatamountSolar.com 802-272-0004 On Oct 22, 2015 11:15 AM, "Kristopher Schmid" wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > Anyone using Rolls Surrette batteries? Happy with them? Worth the extra > $$$? > > Thanks for the feedback, > Kris > > -- > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 864 Clam Falls Trail > Frederic, WI 54837 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Thu Oct 22 13:06:39 2015 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 13:06:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rolls batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <899177C8-3C69-44F7-B9FD-25EA3DF88821@swnl.net> The 5000 series are what we always recommend and install for my off grid clients. 2 volt cells are the only way we go. Despite what folks believe, we find it easier to handle the KS series then the L16. We have been using them for many years and as with ANY manu, they have and had issues BUT...... we feel w/ proper system sizing, education of the client & record keeping we have yet to have an issue w/ warrantee claims. That being said we have had a long relationship W/Jamie Surrette and his supplier, Roy Early and his crew at RAE Battery, one of the best suppliers in our 27+ years. On Oct 22, 2015, at 11:15 AM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > Anyone using Rolls Surrette batteries? Happy with them? Worth the extra $$$? > > Thanks for the feedback, > Kris > > -- > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 864 Clam Falls Trail > Frederic, WI 54837 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Thu Oct 22 13:50:10 2015 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 13:50:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rolls batteries In-Reply-To: <899177C8-3C69-44F7-B9FD-25EA3DF88821@swnl.net> References: <899177C8-3C69-44F7-B9FD-25EA3DF88821@swnl.net> Message-ID: <2cd7c5cc35f189b528e6d0fcfdc930a5.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> As with Tump, we have been using the KS series for over 20 years with little issue. My own particular caveat is that we have now started to use Crown as well and are finding them as rugged, easier to move (metal cases with handles), with built in water miser caps, and a better warranty, and with great success. I also echo Tumps sentiments with Roy at RAE. We have been buying from him since our inception in 1988. Daryl > The 5000 series are what we always recommend and install for my off grid > clients. 2 volt cells are the only way we go. Despite what folks believe, > we find it easier to handle the KS series then the L16. > We have been using them for many years and as with ANY manu, they have and > had issues BUT...... we feel w/ proper system sizing, education of the > client & record keeping we have yet to have an issue w/ warrantee claims. > That being said we have had a long relationship W/Jamie Surrette and his > supplier, Roy Early and his crew at RAE Battery, one of the best > suppliers in our 27+ years. > On Oct 22, 2015, at 11:15 AM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: > >> Hi Wrenches, >> >> Anyone using Rolls Surrette batteries? Happy with them? Worth the >> extra $$$? >> >> Thanks for the feedback, >> Kris >> >> -- >> Shine On! >> >> Kris Schmid >> Legacy Solar, LLC >> 864 Clam Falls Trail >> Frederic, WI 54837 >> www.legacysolar.com >> 715-653-4295 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installer >> Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician >> BSEE >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net >> Solarwinds Northernlights >> Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California >> 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 >> Blair "TUMP" May >> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" >> >> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From allan at sindelarsolar.com Thu Oct 22 14:19:19 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 12:19:19 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery recommendation WAS: Rolls batteries In-Reply-To: <2cd7c5cc35f189b528e6d0fcfdc930a5.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> References: <899177C8-3C69-44F7-B9FD-25EA3DF88821@swnl.net> <2cd7c5cc35f189b528e6d0fcfdc930a5.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> Message-ID: <562928A7.3010106@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Thu Oct 22 14:26:06 2015 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 13:26:06 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rolls batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks everyone! Your feedback is highly valued and appreciated. Kris On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 11:36 AM, Howie Michaelson wrote: > We use Rolls almost exclusively. We've had occasional failures, but in > general they are very rugged, and stand up to a great deal of abuse > (speaking from the perspective of being one of my own worst clients that > way). > Howie > > Howie Michaelson > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > > Catamount Solar > Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service > VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner > http://www.CatamountSolar.com > 802-272-0004 > On Oct 22, 2015 11:15 AM, "Kristopher Schmid" > wrote: > >> Hi Wrenches, >> >> Anyone using Rolls Surrette batteries? Happy with them? Worth the extra >> $$$? >> >> Thanks for the feedback, >> Kris >> >> -- >> Shine On! >> >> Kris Schmid >> Legacy Solar, LLC >> 864 Clam Falls Trail >> Frederic, WI 54837 >> www.legacysolar.com >> 715-653-4295 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installer >> Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician >> BSEE >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installer Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Thu Oct 22 12:50:57 2015 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 09:50:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rolls batteries References: Message-ID: <0D6C13AF51FC43F1A683A9C5971111F2@D8XG8YH1> I have a 48 V pack of 2KS33P's and have installed many of their batts for my customers. You kind of need to qualify which series of batteries (4000, 4500,5000) of theirs you are asking about. If you're trying to do more than ~1000 ahrs and need to avoid more than 2 strings, you'll be looking at their 5000 series batteries. The 5000's have a better warranty, cost more. last longer, though they seem to drop in voltage, under load a bit more than say 3 strings of L-16s of the same capacity (comments welcome)...this can be an issue in some applications. Bill Feather River Solar Electric ----- Original Message ----- From: Kristopher Schmid To: RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 8:15 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rolls batteries Hi Wrenches, Anyone using Rolls Surrette batteries? Happy with them? Worth the extra $$$? Thanks for the feedback, Kris -- Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installer Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Oct 22 16:06:32 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 10:06:32 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery recommendation WAS: Rolls batteries Message-ID: <7xwrlfkx686em5yqy31nd59e.1445544391799@email.android.com> I have done stuff like this in the past, I would suggest talking to your local battery distributors and explain what you are doing they may be able to go to bat with there manufactures for you. Good luck  Jerry Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Allan Sindelar
Date:10/22/2015 8:19 AM (GMT-10:00)
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery recommendation WAS: Rolls batteries
I have a related question, please. One of my longtime off grid clients is a single woman who maintains a nonprofit sanctuary for about 30 rescue dogs, both adoptable and not adoptable (curious? www.bridgingtheworlds.org). With that many animals, Beverly seldom leaves her remote land and her support and sustenance comes primarily from donations. Her existing system is a 18-year-old SW4024/Solar Boost SB50, with 800W of old array and eight L16s. The L16s were takeouts from another job that I figured had some life left (used for two years in another contractor's Sunny Island GTBB system without telling the customer that he needed to add water regularly). I gave them to her at no cost and they lasted three years but are now dying fast. At my suggestion she has been running a GoFundMe campaign that has raised $2900. I have already told her that I'll do the swapout at no charge. I told her that the choice of her next set of batteries would depend on the money she raised: we have another 24V set of 820A/hr Rolls that I think has some life left, or we can afford 8 L16s, or with the most generous donation total I'll order a set of HUPs and they'll last her the rest of her life (or maybe not - she's healthy, beautiful and independent at 71 years). So, my question: At $3,000 and 24V, what would you sell her? This is bound to bring varied opinions, but I want to look beyond what I would select based on price and get other Wrenches' suggestions. I'll add that while the array is small and old, she lives well on very little energy, and has a TriMetric and a backup generator. Thank you for your opinions. Allan Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell On 10/22/2015 11:50 AM, penobscotsolar at midmaine.com wrote: As with Tump, we have been using the KS series for over 20 years with little issue. My own particular caveat is that we have now started to use Crown as well and are finding them as rugged, easier to move (metal cases with handles), with built in water miser caps, and a better warranty, and with great success. I also echo Tumps sentiments with Roy at RAE. We have been buying from him since our inception in 1988. Daryl The 5000 series are what we always recommend and install for my off grid clients. 2 volt cells are the only way we go. Despite what folks believe, we find it easier to handle the KS series then the L16. We have been using them for many years and as with ANY manu, they have and had issues BUT...... we feel w/ proper system sizing, education of the client & record keeping we have yet to have an issue w/ warrantee claims. That being said we have had a long relationship W/Jamie Surrette and his supplier, Roy Early and his crew at RAE Battery, one of the best suppliers in our 27+ years. On Oct 22, 2015, at 11:15 AM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: Hi Wrenches, Anyone using Rolls Surrette batteries? Happy with them? Worth the extra $$$? Thanks for the feedback, Kris -- Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installer Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net Solarwinds Northernlights Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 Blair "TUMP" May ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Oct 22 13:45:09 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 10:45:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rolls batteries In-Reply-To: <899177C8-3C69-44F7-B9FD-25EA3DF88821@swnl.net> References: <899177C8-3C69-44F7-B9FD-25EA3DF88821@swnl.net> Message-ID: As a west coast guy I use Trojan IND when I get a chance to sell industrial batteries. They are made here in cali which makes warranty ( none to date) and delivery faster/easier. As to Rolls. In the past warranty was a complete cluster #@% which is why I haven’t used them. Now its much better, and Steve H is doing a good job. jay peltz power > On Oct 22, 2015, at 10:06 AM, Tump wrote: > > The 5000 series are what we always recommend and install for my off grid clients. 2 volt cells are the only way we go. Despite what folks believe, we find it easier to handle the KS series then the L16. > We have been using them for many years and as with ANY manu, they have and had issues BUT...... we feel w/ proper system sizing, education of the client & record keeping we have yet to have an issue w/ warrantee claims. That being said we have had a long relationship W/Jamie Surrette and his supplier, Roy Early and his crew at RAE Battery, one of the best suppliers in our 27+ years. > On Oct 22, 2015, at 11:15 AM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: > >> Hi Wrenches, >> >> Anyone using Rolls Surrette batteries? Happy with them? Worth the extra $$$? >> >> Thanks for the feedback, >> Kris >> >> -- >> Shine On! >> >> Kris Schmid >> Legacy Solar, LLC >> 864 Clam Falls Trail >> Frederic, WI 54837 >> www.legacysolar.com >> 715-653-4295 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installer >> Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician >> BSEE >> ___ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirk at vtsolar.com Thu Oct 22 12:55:20 2015 From: kirk at vtsolar.com (Kirk) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 12:55:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rolls batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3D2E7A3E-780D-4BAC-AEA7-5020D2404448@vtsolar.com> Actually I've had more early failures with their 2 volt S-series cells then the T12-250. But I now loath series-parallel strings, so I still put up with the rare 2 volt failure. Kirk Herander VSE Sent from a job site somewhere > On Oct 22, 2015, at 12:39 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: > > As a caveat, I would add that we do not use their T12250 batteries. For some reason, they have not been nearly as reliable as any of their other batteries we have used. > Howie > > Howie Michaelson > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > > Catamount Solar > Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service > VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner > http://www.CatamountSolar.com > 802-272-0004 > >> On Oct 22, 2015 11:15 AM, "Kristopher Schmid" wrote: >> Hi Wrenches, >> >> Anyone using Rolls Surrette batteries? Happy with them? Worth the extra $$$? >> >> Thanks for the feedback, >> Kris >> >> -- >> Shine On! >> >> Kris Schmid >> Legacy Solar, LLC >> 864 Clam Falls Trail >> Frederic, WI 54837 >> www.legacysolar.com >> 715-653-4295 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installer >> Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician >> BSEE >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com Thu Oct 22 12:27:09 2015 From: nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com (Nick Soleil) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 09:27:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Can anyone identify this mounting system and module In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That is the Andalay/Westinghouse Solar system. They can be reached at: http://www.andalaysolar.com/ On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 7:59 AM, Carl Adams wrote: > I have not been onsite but was sent some photos. This system needs > removed for reroofing. I am not familiar which this mounting > hardware/module. Pictures attached. > > Thanks > Carl Adams > SunRock Solar > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Cordially, Nick Soleil *Enphase Energy* | Field Applications Engineer office 707-763-4784 <%28707%29%20763.%204784> x7267 cell 07-321-2937 *Powering What’s Next*™* | *The Enphase Energy Management System NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 Texas Master Electrician #284451 “Don’t get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It’s just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there’s an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it’s wireless!” - William McDonough -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Oct 22 18:40:25 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 15:40:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery recommendation WAS: Rolls batteries In-Reply-To: <562928A7.3010106@sindelarsolar.com> References: <899177C8-3C69-44F7-B9FD-25EA3DF88821@swnl.net> <2cd7c5cc35f189b528e6d0fcfdc930a5.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> <562928A7.3010106@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Hi Allan, A few questions. how little energy? amp hrs night/avg. and is mx something this person does or would like to do without? But given what you’ve said, I wouldn’t go with wet cell industrial as you’ll never get the C rate you need. If the 8 x L-16’s have done her well ( and probably the battery box is set up for that form factor) and with your budget I’d go with another set of L-16’s flooded or sealed if the budget/want allows. And if the need is really quite small, I”d consider golf cart. Yea yea,I hear all the laughs, but where I live, golf carts seem to have the life they always have, but L-16’s ( all brands) seem to have a shorter and shorter life for reasons I don’t understand. jay peltz power > On Oct 22, 2015, at 11:19 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > > I have a related question, please. One of my longtime off grid clients is a single woman who maintains a nonprofit sanctuary for about 30 rescue dogs, both adoptable and not adoptable (curious? www.bridgingtheworlds.org ). With that many animals, Beverly seldom leaves her remote land and her support and sustenance comes primarily from donations. Her existing system is a 18-year-old SW4024/Solar Boost SB50, with 800W of old array and eight L16s. > > The L16s were takeouts from another job that I figured had some life left (used for two years in another contractor's Sunny Island GTBB system without telling the customer that he needed to add water regularly). I gave them to her at no cost and they lasted three years but are now dying fast. > > At my suggestion she has been running a GoFundMe campaign that has raised $2900. I have already told her that I'll do the swapout at no charge. I told her that the choice of her next set of batteries would depend on the money she raised: we have another 24V set of 820A/hr Rolls that I think has some life left, or we can afford 8 L16s, or with the most generous donation total I'll order a set of HUPs and they'll last her the rest of her life (or maybe not - she's healthy, beautiful and independent at 71 years). > > So, my question: At $3,000 and 24V, what would you sell her? This is bound to bring varied opinions, but I want to look beyond what I would select based on price and get other Wrenches' suggestions. I'll add that while the array is small and old, she lives well on very little energy, and has a TriMetric and a backup generator. > > Thank you for your opinions. > Allan > > Allan Sindelar > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > 505 780-2738 cell > > > On 10/22/2015 11:50 AM, penobscotsolar at midmaine.com wrote: >> As with Tump, we have been using the KS series for over 20 years with >> little issue. My own particular caveat is that we have now started to use >> Crown as well and are finding them as rugged, easier to move (metal cases >> with handles), with built in water miser caps, and a better warranty, and >> with great success. I also echo Tumps sentiments with Roy at RAE. We have >> been buying from him since our inception in 1988. >> >> Daryl >> >> >> >>> The 5000 series are what we always recommend and install for my off grid >>> clients. 2 volt cells are the only way we go. Despite what folks believe, >>> we find it easier to handle the KS series then the L16. >>> We have been using them for many years and as with ANY manu, they have and >>> had issues BUT...... we feel w/ proper system sizing, education of the >>> client & record keeping we have yet to have an issue w/ warrantee claims. >>> That being said we have had a long relationship W/Jamie Surrette and his >>> supplier, Roy Early and his crew at RAE Battery, one of the best >>> suppliers in our 27+ years. >>> On Oct 22, 2015, at 11:15 AM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Wrenches, >>>> >>>> Anyone using Rolls Surrette batteries? Happy with them? Worth the >>>> extra $$$? >>>> >>>> Thanks for the feedback, >>>> Kris >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Shine On! >>>> >>>> Kris Schmid >>>> Legacy Solar, LLC >>>> 864 Clam Falls Trail >>>> Frederic, WI 54837 >>>> www.legacysolar.com >>>> 715-653-4295 >>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installer >>>> Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician >>>> BSEE >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net >>>> Solarwinds Northernlights >>>> Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California >>>> 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 >>>> Blair "TUMP" May >>>> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>>> NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" >>>> >>>> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>>> Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swingjunkie at gmail.com Thu Oct 22 20:47:49 2015 From: swingjunkie at gmail.com (Carl Adams) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 20:47:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Can anyone identify this mounting system and module In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for the responses. On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 12:27 PM, Nick Soleil wrote: > That is the Andalay/Westinghouse Solar system. They can be reached at: > http://www.andalaysolar.com/ > > On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 7:59 AM, Carl Adams wrote: > >> I have not been onsite but was sent some photos. This system needs >> removed for reroofing. I am not familiar which this mounting >> hardware/module. Pictures attached. >> >> Thanks >> Carl Adams >> SunRock Solar >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > > Cordially, > > Nick Soleil > *Enphase Energy* | Field Applications Engineer > > office 707-763-4784 <%28707%29%20763.%204784> x7267 > cell 07-321-2937 > > > > *Powering What’s Next*™* | *The Enphase Energy Management System > > > > > > > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 > > California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 > > Texas Master Electrician #284451 > > > > “Don’t get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It’s just that I prefer fusion > to fission. And it just so happens that there’s an enormous fusion reactor > safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could > ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it’s wireless!” > > - William McDonough > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at independentpowerllc.com Thu Oct 22 20:51:11 2015 From: dave at independentpowerllc.com (Dave) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 20:51:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery recommendation WAS: Rolls batteries In-Reply-To: References: <899177C8-3C69-44F7-B9FD-25EA3DF88821@swnl.net> <2cd7c5cc35f189b528e6d0fcfdc930a5.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> <562928A7.3010106@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <01a301d10d2c$e9c18130$bd448390$@com> Jay, I second your thumbs up for golf cart batteries for their value to budget wise off-gridders. I sell a lot of Trojan T-105's (selling more of the RE models the last few years) to do-it-yourselfers with small systems. I have not seen problems with two, and up to three strings of these in 24v systems. Many of my customers can't afford the more expensive batteries and they have been getting 8 to 12 years of service from T-105's. David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 6:40 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery recommendation WAS: Rolls batteries Hi Allan, A few questions. how little energy? amp hrs night/avg. and is mx something this person does or would like to do without? But given what you've said, I wouldn't go with wet cell industrial as you'll never get the C rate you need. If the 8 x L-16's have done her well ( and probably the battery box is set up for that form factor) and with your budget I'd go with another set of L-16's flooded or sealed if the budget/want allows. And if the need is really quite small, I"d consider golf cart. Yea yea,I hear all the laughs, but where I live, golf carts seem to have the life they always have, but L-16's ( all brands) seem to have a shorter and shorter life for reasons I don't understand. jay peltz power On Oct 22, 2015, at 11:19 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: I have a related question, please. One of my longtime off grid clients is a single woman who maintains a nonprofit sanctuary for about 30 rescue dogs, both adoptable and not adoptable (curious? www.bridgingtheworlds.org). With that many animals, Beverly seldom leaves her remote land and her support and sustenance comes primarily from donations. Her existing system is a 18-year-old SW4024/Solar Boost SB50, with 800W of old array and eight L16s. The L16s were takeouts from another job that I figured had some life left (used for two years in another contractor's Sunny Island GTBB system without telling the customer that he needed to add water regularly). I gave them to her at no cost and they lasted three years but are now dying fast. At my suggestion she has been running a GoFundMe campaign that has raised $2900. I have already told her that I'll do the swapout at no charge. I told her that the choice of her next set of batteries would depend on the money she raised: we have another 24V set of 820A/hr Rolls that I think has some life left, or we can afford 8 L16s, or with the most generous donation total I'll order a set of HUPs and they'll last her the rest of her life (or maybe not - she's healthy, beautiful and independent at 71 years). So, my question: At $3,000 and 24V, what would you sell her? This is bound to bring varied opinions, but I want to look beyond what I would select based on price and get other Wrenches' suggestions. I'll add that while the array is small and old, she lives well on very little energy, and has a TriMetric and a backup generator. Thank you for your opinions. Allan Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell On 10/22/2015 11:50 AM, penobscotsolar at midmaine.com wrote: As with Tump, we have been using the KS series for over 20 years with little issue. My own particular caveat is that we have now started to use Crown as well and are finding them as rugged, easier to move (metal cases with handles), with built in water miser caps, and a better warranty, and with great success. I also echo Tumps sentiments with Roy at RAE. We have been buying from him since our inception in 1988. Daryl The 5000 series are what we always recommend and install for my off grid clients. 2 volt cells are the only way we go. Despite what folks believe, we find it easier to handle the KS series then the L16. We have been using them for many years and as with ANY manu, they have and had issues BUT...... we feel w/ proper system sizing, education of the client & record keeping we have yet to have an issue w/ warrantee claims. That being said we have had a long relationship W/Jamie Surrette and his supplier, Roy Early and his crew at RAE Battery, one of the best suppliers in our 27+ years. On Oct 22, 2015, at 11:15 AM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: Hi Wrenches, Anyone using Rolls Surrette batteries? Happy with them? Worth the extra $$$? Thanks for the feedback, Kris -- Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installer Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net Solarwinds Northernlights Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 Blair "TUMP" May ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swingjunkie at gmail.com Thu Oct 22 20:52:12 2015 From: swingjunkie at gmail.com (Carl Adams) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 20:52:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mage Solar US Support contact Message-ID: Hello Fellow wrenches, I have a couple of failed Mage solar AC modules. These are Mage Solar panels with an integrated Solardridge inverter. Anyone have a good contact number for Mage Solar US Support, or do I need to call Germany? Thanks Carl Adams SunRock Solar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From truscitti at taitem.com Thu Oct 22 21:26:33 2015 From: truscitti at taitem.com (Tom Ruscitti) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 21:26:33 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Current limiting fuse at battery bank Message-ID: <56298CC9.4050709@taitem.com> On battery based systems I always install a Class T fuse as close to the battery bank as possible. 690.71(C) is a little vague in requiring a current limiting fuse only where the available short-circuit current from the battery bank exceeds the interrupting ratings of the inverter breaker. Inverter breakers vary in their interrupting ratings and battery banks are big current sources when things go wrong, so it's just a sensible best practice. My question is about service work on systems we didn't install. We're quoting the second job this year for battery replacement where there is no current limiting fuse installed. It's always a tough question to judge what extra work might be required when you touch another contractor's system, but does anyone have an opinion about recommending or requiring the installation of a fuse at the battery box as part of the battery replacement? Thanks, - Tom -- Tom Ruscitti Senior Engineer Taitem Engineering, PC 110 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 Mobile: (607) 220-7022 www.taitem.com From ray at solarray.com Thu Oct 22 21:46:23 2015 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 19:46:23 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Current limiting fuse at battery bank In-Reply-To: <56298CC9.4050709@taitem.com> References: <56298CC9.4050709@taitem.com> Message-ID: <5629916F.3020509@solarray.com> I agree installing a fuse at the battery bank is a good idea. However actually doing it right is tough. Putting the class T fuse and holder in a battery enclosure with flooded cells is going to cause more trouble than it solves. I've seen class T fuses oozing green goo out the ends, and the fuse holder contacts get corroded to the point that they are causing significant volt drop. If it is installed outside, then you need an enclosure. Then there is the requirement that fuses be serviceable, requiring disconnects on both sides. The Boltswitch pullout system solves that problem, but then you have to custom fabricate an enclosure for the Boltswitch disconnect. End of story, is we aren't usually ever installing that fuse at the battery. Instead we keep the distance from the DC Load center to the battery as close as possible. The number one danger is a wrench falling across the battery terminals, and neither the breaker or a class T fuse at the main terminal is going to stop that. We would need fusing at each exposed positive terminal of each battery to truly protect against short circuits. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 10/22/2015 7:26 PM, Tom Ruscitti wrote: > On battery based systems I always install a Class T fuse as close to > the battery bank as possible. 690.71(C) is a little vague in requiring > a current limiting fuse only where the available short-circuit current > from the battery bank exceeds the interrupting ratings of the inverter > breaker. Inverter breakers vary in their interrupting ratings and > battery banks are big current sources when things go wrong, so it's > just a sensible best practice. My question is about service work on > systems we didn't install. We're quoting the second job this year for > battery replacement where there is no current limiting fuse installed. > It's always a tough question to judge what extra work might be > required when you touch another contractor's system, but does anyone > have an opinion about recommending or requiring the installation of a > fuse at the battery box as part of the battery replacement? > > Thanks, > > - Tom > From allan at sindelarsolar.com Thu Oct 22 22:20:18 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 19:20:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Current limiting fuse at battery bank In-Reply-To: <5629916F.3020509@solarray.com> References: <56298CC9.4050709@taitem.com> <5629916F.3020509@solarray.com> Message-ID: <655C5754-B5BF-4C44-9A1C-B906AE7EC968@sindelarsolar.com> Tom, Agree with Ray here. But more than that, if you consider a class T fuse good practice, include it. But do no more than offer it when you work on others' systems. The homeowner usually won't see the value in the same way that you do, it won't affect the system 's performance unless there's a catastrophic failure, and you risk being seen as someone they don't know trying to pad a sale with added bells and whistles. I haven't checked in recent years, but the original Heinemann GJ breakers in 175 and 250A ratings had 10,000A AIC, which is difficult to achieve with normal cable and terminal resistances. Yes, the class T fuse in a Boltswitch pull-out disconnect offers better AIC protection than a CB, but the industry went the CB route about 15 years ago. > On Oct 22, 2015, at 6:46 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > > I agree installing a fuse at the battery bank is a good idea. However actually doing it right is tough. Putting the class T fuse and holder in a battery enclosure with flooded cells is going to cause more trouble than it solves. I've seen class T fuses oozing green goo out the ends, and the fuse holder contacts get corroded to the point that they are causing significant volt drop. > If it is installed outside, then you need an enclosure. Then there is the requirement that fuses be serviceable, requiring disconnects on both sides. The Boltswitch pullout system solves that problem, but then you have to custom fabricate an enclosure for the Boltswitch disconnect. > End of story, is we aren't usually ever installing that fuse at the battery. Instead we keep the distance from the DC Load center to the battery as close as possible. The number one danger is a wrench falling across the battery terminals, and neither the breaker or a class T fuse at the main terminal is going to stop that. We would need fusing at each exposed positive terminal of each battery to truly protect against short circuits. > > R.Ray Walters > CTO, Solarray, Inc > Nabcep Certified PV Installer, > Licensed Master Electrician > Solar Design Engineer > 303 505-8760 > >> On 10/22/2015 7:26 PM, Tom Ruscitti wrote: >> On battery based systems I always install a Class T fuse as close to the battery bank as possible. 690.71(C) is a little vague in requiring a current limiting fuse only where the available short-circuit current from the battery bank exceeds the interrupting ratings of the inverter breaker. Inverter breakers vary in their interrupting ratings and battery banks are big current sources when things go wrong, so it's just a sensible best practice. My question is about service work on systems we didn't install. We're quoting the second job this year for battery replacement where there is no current limiting fuse installed. It's always a tough question to judge what extra work might be required when you touch another contractor's system, but does anyone have an opinion about recommending or requiring the installation of a fuse at the battery box as part of the battery replacement? >> >> Thanks, >> >> - Tom > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Oct 22 22:25:39 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 16:25:39 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Current limiting fuse at battery bank In-Reply-To: <56298CC9.4050709@taitem.com> References: <56298CC9.4050709@taitem.com> Message-ID: I agree, fuse it Jerry On Oct 22, 2015 3:26 PM, "Tom Ruscitti" wrote: > On battery based systems I always install a Class T fuse as close to the > battery bank as possible. 690.71(C) is a little vague in requiring a > current limiting fuse only where the available short-circuit current from > the battery bank exceeds the interrupting ratings of the inverter breaker. > Inverter breakers vary in their interrupting ratings and battery banks are > big current sources when things go wrong, so it's just a sensible best > practice. My question is about service work on systems we didn't install. > We're quoting the second job this year for battery replacement where there > is no current limiting fuse installed. It's always a tough question to > judge what extra work might be required when you touch another contractor's > system, but does anyone have an opinion about recommending or requiring the > installation of a fuse at the battery box as part of the battery > replacement? > > Thanks, > > - Tom > > -- > Tom Ruscitti > Senior Engineer > > Taitem Engineering, PC > 110 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 > Mobile: (607) 220-7022 > www.taitem.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reellison at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 03:22:51 2015 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 03:22:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Current limiting fuse at battery bank In-Reply-To: References: <56298CC9.4050709@taitem.com> Message-ID: At an absolute minimum a current limiting the fuse at the battery bank is required if not by the law by common sense In banks with multiple strings in the past I have fused each string I have seen banks in the past where a single battery failed and for lack of a better description the others ganged up on it The results were not pretty! Sometimes we're dealing with thousands of dollars worth of batteries and a 30 or $35 fuse never seemed to be that big of a deal in the overall scheme of things I sleep better at night that way! Just another guy's opinion, Bob ellison > On Oct 22, 2015, at 10:25 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > I agree, fuse it > > Jerry > >> On Oct 22, 2015 3:26 PM, "Tom Ruscitti" wrote: >> On battery based systems I always install a Class T fuse as close to the battery bank as possible. 690.71(C) is a little vague in requiring a current limiting fuse only where the available short-circuit current from the battery bank exceeds the interrupting ratings of the inverter breaker. Inverter breakers vary in their interrupting ratings and battery banks are big current sources when things go wrong, so it's just a sensible best practice. My question is about service work on systems we didn't install. We're quoting the second job this year for battery replacement where there is no current limiting fuse installed. It's always a tough question to judge what extra work might be required when you touch another contractor's system, but does anyone have an opinion about recommending or requiring the installation of a fuse at the battery box as part of the battery replacement? >> >> Thanks, >> >> - Tom >> >> -- >> Tom Ruscitti >> Senior Engineer >> >> Taitem Engineering, PC >> 110 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 >> Mobile: (607) 220-7022 >> www.taitem.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at seesolar.com Fri Oct 23 01:26:43 2015 From: max at seesolar.com (Mbalchowsky) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 22:26:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Current limiting fuse at battery bank In-Reply-To: References: <56298CC9.4050709@taitem.com> Message-ID: <61517B51-F874-4CF7-A54C-6F2234DD77B6@seesolar.com> It's ALWAYS good practice to install a current limiting fuse at the battery bank, if fact it's very poor practice not to. We're working with a lot of larger lithium ion phosphate manganese systems and I would not install them without it. As far as working on someone else's install, make your contract very clear as to what the customer can expect as far as your liability when working on an existing system. The more detail, the better..... Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 22, 2015, at 7:25 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > I agree, fuse it > > Jerry > >> On Oct 22, 2015 3:26 PM, "Tom Ruscitti" wrote: >> On battery based systems I always install a Class T fuse as close to the battery bank as possible. 690.71(C) is a little vague in requiring a current limiting fuse only where the available short-circuit current from the battery bank exceeds the interrupting ratings of the inverter breaker. Inverter breakers vary in their interrupting ratings and battery banks are big current sources when things go wrong, so it's just a sensible best practice. My question is about service work on systems we didn't install. We're quoting the second job this year for battery replacement where there is no current limiting fuse installed. It's always a tough question to judge what extra work might be required when you touch another contractor's system, but does anyone have an opinion about recommending or requiring the installation of a fuse at the battery box as part of the battery replacement? >> >> Thanks, >> >> - Tom >> >> -- >> Tom Ruscitti >> Senior Engineer >> >> Taitem Engineering, PC >> 110 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 >> Mobile: (607) 220-7022 >> www.taitem.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Fri Oct 23 09:17:35 2015 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 09:17:35 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SB6000U Derating Mode In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks guys for the recommendations. -Dave *--* *Dave Tedeyan* *Project Engineer* *Taitem Engineering, PC* 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 www.taitem.com On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 6:38 PM, Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I recently replaced a SB1800U with a refurbished model, but Solar Cowboyz > did a good job of phone advice first, then bench diagnosis. It turned out > to be electrolytic caps leaking onto the board and causing etching. You > might get some help there. I found them competent, if not a little slow and > difficult to deal with (slow service). > > > http://www.shop.solarcowboyzoutlet.com/Inverter-Repair-Service-Inverter-Repair-Service.htm > > ​Jason Szumlanski > ​ > > > On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 9:58 AM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> Is anyone familiar with the wiring in the old Sunny Boy U inverters? We >> have got a call from someone who has one where the temperature sensor has >> gone bad, and it is always in derating mode. It derates so much that it can >> only produce about .1W, even if it is cool out. >> >> The inverter is located inside a barn, and has been cleaned. The inverter >> is also past warranty. >> >> Anyone have any wiring diagrams for this kind of inverter? Or any >> suggestions as to how to bypass the temperature sensor, or change the >> programming so that it does not derate anymore? Anything would be useful, >> as the alternative is to just get a whole new inverter. >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> *--* >> >> >> *Dave Tedeyan* >> *Project Engineer* >> >> *Taitem Engineering, PC* >> 109 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 >> Voice: (607) 277-1118 x121 >> www.taitem.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 10:30:10 2015 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 08:30:10 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Current limiting fuse at battery bank In-Reply-To: <61517B51-F874-4CF7-A54C-6F2234DD77B6@seesolar.com> References: <56298CC9.4050709@taitem.com> <61517B51-F874-4CF7-A54C-6F2234DD77B6@seesolar.com> Message-ID: Esteemed Wrenches; This creeps me out too and sometimes causes lack of sleep. The Midnite Solar power panel install manual shows no OCPD on in DC + main from battery bank to power panel. Easy to wire the main DC breaker to control those conductors, but then you have a "self destruct" switch if system shutdown and restart is not done in the proper order, IE PV and wind turbine shut down first before battery bank. For a class T fuse on the battery bank, it's a big $ ordeal because it has to be outside the battery box in an enclosure per NEC. So, recently I've just been making sure the conduit from DC battery mains is sound up to the power panel. The only issue I can see is mice chewing 2/0 cable inside the battery box -- which means the box wasn't designed right to exclude rodents, or the owner has a lazy cat. I'd feel much better if there was an OCPD NEC legal to attach right to the main battery DC + and wire from there to power panel, but I don't think that exists. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 11:26 PM, Mbalchowsky wrote: > It's ALWAYS good practice to install a current limiting fuse at the > battery bank, if fact it's very poor practice not to. We're working with a > lot of larger lithium ion phosphate manganese systems and I would not > install them without it. As far as working on someone else's install, make > your contract very clear as to what the customer can expect as far as your > liability when working on an existing system. The more detail, the > better..... > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Oct 22, 2015, at 7:25 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > > I agree, fuse it > > Jerry > On Oct 22, 2015 3:26 PM, "Tom Ruscitti" wrote: > >> On battery based systems I always install a Class T fuse as close to the >> battery bank as possible. 690.71(C) is a little vague in requiring a >> current limiting fuse only where the available short-circuit current from >> the battery bank exceeds the interrupting ratings of the inverter breaker. >> Inverter breakers vary in their interrupting ratings and battery banks are >> big current sources when things go wrong, so it's just a sensible best >> practice. My question is about service work on systems we didn't install. >> We're quoting the second job this year for battery replacement where there >> is no current limiting fuse installed. It's always a tough question to >> judge what extra work might be required when you touch another contractor's >> system, but does anyone have an opinion about recommending or requiring the >> installation of a fuse at the battery box as part of the battery >> replacement? >> >> Thanks, >> >> - Tom >> >> -- >> Tom Ruscitti >> Senior Engineer >> >> Taitem Engineering, PC >> 110 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 >> Mobile: (607) 220-7022 >> www.taitem.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 10:51:18 2015 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 08:51:18 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery recommendation WAS: Rolls batteries In-Reply-To: <01a301d10d2c$e9c18130$bd448390$@com> References: <899177C8-3C69-44F7-B9FD-25EA3DF88821@swnl.net> <2cd7c5cc35f189b528e6d0fcfdc930a5.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> <562928A7.3010106@sindelarsolar.com> <01a301d10d2c$e9c18130$bd448390$@com> Message-ID: Another thumbs up on Trojan T-105 golf cart batteries. They take owner abuse with grace and dignity, are easy to move via non-truck methods and with shipping caps on the cells even helicopter operators don't whine too much. Here's some data aq from one of my helo installs in northern BC that gets zero sun 3 months of the year. These T-105s have been in place since 2009 and are still going strong. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 6:51 PM, Dave wrote: > Jay, > > > > I second your thumbs up for golf cart batteries for their value to budget > wise off-gridders. I sell a lot of Trojan T-105's (selling more of the RE > models the last few years) to do-it-yourselfers with small systems. I have > not seen problems with two, and up to three strings of these in 24v > systems. Many of my customers can't afford the more expensive batteries and > they have been getting 8 to 12 years of service from T-105's. > > > > David Palumbo > > Independent Power LLC > > 462 Solar Way Drive > > Hyde Park, VT 05655 > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *jay > *Sent:* Thursday, October 22, 2015 6:40 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Battery recommendation WAS: Rolls batteries > > > > Hi Allan, > > > > A few questions. > > > > how little energy? amp hrs night/avg. > > and > > is mx something this person does or would like to do without? > > > > But given what you’ve said, I wouldn’t go with wet cell industrial as > you’ll never get the C rate you need. If the 8 x L-16’s have done her > well ( and probably the battery box is set up for that form factor) and > with your budget I’d go with another set of L-16’s flooded or sealed if > the budget/want allows. > > > > And if the need is really quite small, I”d consider golf cart. Yea yea,I > hear all the laughs, but where I live, golf carts seem to have the life > they always have, but L-16’s ( all brands) seem to have a shorter and > shorter life for reasons I don’t understand. > > > > > > jay > > > > peltz power > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 22, 2015, at 11:19 AM, Allan Sindelar > wrote: > > > > I have a related question, please. One of my longtime off grid clients is > a single woman who maintains a nonprofit sanctuary for about 30 rescue > dogs, both adoptable and not adoptable (curious? www.bridgingtheworlds.org). > With that many animals, Beverly seldom leaves her remote land and her > support and sustenance comes primarily from donations. Her existing system > is a 18-year-old SW4024/Solar Boost SB50, with 800W of old array and eight > L16s. > > The L16s were takeouts from another job that I figured had some life left > (used for two years in another contractor's Sunny Island GTBB system > without telling the customer that he needed to add water regularly). I gave > them to her at no cost and they lasted three years but are now dying fast. > > At my suggestion she has been running a GoFundMe campaign that has raised > $2900. I have already told her that I'll do the swapout at no charge. I > told her that the choice of her next set of batteries would depend on the > money she raised: we have another 24V set of 820A/hr Rolls that I think has > some life left, or we can afford 8 L16s, or with the most generous donation > total I'll order a set of HUPs and they'll last her the rest of her life > (or maybe not - she's healthy, beautiful and independent at 71 years). > > So, my question: At $3,000 and 24V, what would you sell her? This is bound > to bring varied opinions, but I want to look beyond what I would select > based on price and get other Wrenches' suggestions. I'll add that while the > array is small and old, she lives well on very little energy, and has a > TriMetric and a backup generator. > > Thank you for your opinions. > Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* > > > > > On 10/22/2015 11:50 AM, penobscotsolar at midmaine.com wrote: > > As with Tump, we have been using the KS series for over 20 years with > > little issue. My own particular caveat is that we have now started to use > > Crown as well and are finding them as rugged, easier to move (metal cases > > with handles), with built in water miser caps, and a better warranty, and > > with great success. I also echo Tumps sentiments with Roy at RAE. We have > > been buying from him since our inception in 1988. > > > > Daryl > > > > > > > > The 5000 series are what we always recommend and install for my off grid > > clients. 2 volt cells are the only way we go. Despite what folks believe, > > we find it easier to handle the KS series then the L16. > > We have been using them for many years and as with ANY manu, they have and > > had issues BUT...... we feel w/ proper system sizing, education of the > > client & record keeping we have yet to have an issue w/ warrantee claims. > > That being said we have had a long relationship W/Jamie Surrette and his > > supplier, Roy Early and his crew at RAE Battery, one of the best > > suppliers in our 27+ years. > > On Oct 22, 2015, at 11:15 AM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: > > > > Hi Wrenches, > > > > Anyone using Rolls Surrette batteries? Happy with them? Worth the > > extra $$$? > > > > Thanks for the feedback, > > Kris > > > > -- > > Shine On! > > > > Kris Schmid > > Legacy Solar, LLC > > 864 Clam Falls Trail > > Frederic, WI 54837 > > www.legacysolar.com > > 715-653-4295 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > > BSEE > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > > Solarwinds Northernlights > > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > > Blair "TUMP" May > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Lake Lodge.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 95537 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dave at independentpowerllc.com Fri Oct 23 12:22:16 2015 From: dave at independentpowerllc.com (Dave) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 12:22:16 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery recommendation WAS: Rolls batteries In-Reply-To: References: <899177C8-3C69-44F7-B9FD-25EA3DF88821@swnl.net> <2cd7c5cc35f189b528e6d0fcfdc930a5.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> <562928A7.3010106@sindelarsolar.com> <01a301d10d2c$e9c18130$bd448390$@com> Message-ID: <028e01d10dae$fcda2380$f68e6a80$@com> Hey Dan, Interesting voltage numbers. How many T-105's in this system and what is the load? What is the temperature of the battery bank? Thanks, Dave From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dan Fink Sent: Friday, October 23, 2015 10:51 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery recommendation WAS: Rolls batteries Another thumbs up on Trojan T-105 golf cart batteries. They take owner abuse with grace and dignity, are easy to move via non-truck methods and with shipping caps on the cells even helicopter operators don't whine too much. Here's some data aq from one of my helo installs in northern BC that gets zero sun 3 months of the year. These T-105s have been in place since 2009 and are still going strong. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 6:51 PM, Dave wrote: Jay, I second your thumbs up for golf cart batteries for their value to budget wise off-gridders. I sell a lot of Trojan T-105's (selling more of the RE models the last few years) to do-it-yourselfers with small systems. I have not seen problems with two, and up to three strings of these in 24v systems. Many of my customers can't afford the more expensive batteries and they have been getting 8 to 12 years of service from T-105's. David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 6:40 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery recommendation WAS: Rolls batteries Hi Allan, A few questions. how little energy? amp hrs night/avg. and is mx something this person does or would like to do without? But given what you’ve said, I wouldn’t go with wet cell industrial as you’ll never get the C rate you need. If the 8 x L-16’s have done her well ( and probably the battery box is set up for that form factor) and with your budget I’d go with another set of L-16’s flooded or sealed if the budget/want allows. And if the need is really quite small, I”d consider golf cart. Yea yea,I hear all the laughs, but where I live, golf carts seem to have the life they always have, but L-16’s ( all brands) seem to have a shorter and shorter life for reasons I don’t understand. jay peltz power On Oct 22, 2015, at 11:19 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: I have a related question, please. One of my longtime off grid clients is a single woman who maintains a nonprofit sanctuary for about 30 rescue dogs, both adoptable and not adoptable (curious? www.bridgingtheworlds.org). With that many animals, Beverly seldom leaves her remote land and her support and sustenance comes primarily from donations. Her existing system is a 18-year-old SW4024/Solar Boost SB50, with 800W of old array and eight L16s. The L16s were takeouts from another job that I figured had some life left (used for two years in another contractor's Sunny Island GTBB system without telling the customer that he needed to add water regularly). I gave them to her at no cost and they lasted three years but are now dying fast. At my suggestion she has been running a GoFundMe campaign that has raised $2900. I have already told her that I'll do the swapout at no charge. I told her that the choice of her next set of batteries would depend on the money she raised: we have another 24V set of 820A/hr Rolls that I think has some life left, or we can afford 8 L16s, or with the most generous donation total I'll order a set of HUPs and they'll last her the rest of her life (or maybe not - she's healthy, beautiful and independent at 71 years). So, my question: At $3,000 and 24V, what would you sell her? This is bound to bring varied opinions, but I want to look beyond what I would select based on price and get other Wrenches' suggestions. I'll add that while the array is small and old, she lives well on very little energy, and has a TriMetric and a backup generator. Thank you for your opinions. Allan Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell On 10/22/2015 11:50 AM, penobscotsolar at midmaine.com wrote: As with Tump, we have been using the KS series for over 20 years with little issue. My own particular caveat is that we have now started to use Crown as well and are finding them as rugged, easier to move (metal cases with handles), with built in water miser caps, and a better warranty, and with great success. I also echo Tumps sentiments with Roy at RAE. We have been buying from him since our inception in 1988. Daryl The 5000 series are what we always recommend and install for my off grid clients. 2 volt cells are the only way we go. Despite what folks believe, we find it easier to handle the KS series then the L16. We have been using them for many years and as with ANY manu, they have and had issues BUT...... we feel w/ proper system sizing, education of the client & record keeping we have yet to have an issue w/ warrantee claims. That being said we have had a long relationship W/Jamie Surrette and his supplier, Roy Early and his crew at RAE Battery, one of the best suppliers in our 27+ years. On Oct 22, 2015, at 11:15 AM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: Hi Wrenches, Anyone using Rolls Surrette batteries? Happy with them? Worth the extra $$$? Thanks for the feedback, Kris -- Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installer Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net Solarwinds Northernlights Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 Blair "TUMP" May ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kjenergysystems at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 12:38:06 2015 From: kjenergysystems at gmail.com (Kurt Johnsen) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 12:38:06 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mage Solar US Support contact In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: wolfgang.beaugrand at magesolar.com Kurt Johnsen On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 8:52 PM, Carl Adams wrote: > Hello Fellow wrenches, > > I have a couple of failed Mage solar AC modules. These are Mage Solar > panels with an integrated Solardridge inverter. Anyone have a good contact > number for Mage Solar US Support, or do I need to call Germany? > > Thanks > Carl Adams > SunRock Solar > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 12:03:38 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 09:03:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 72 cell micro inverters In-Reply-To: References: <899177C8-3C69-44F7-B9FD-25EA3DF88821@swnl.net> <2cd7c5cc35f189b528e6d0fcfdc930a5.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> <562928A7.3010106@sindelarsolar.com> <01a301d10d2c$e9c18130$bd448390$@com> Message-ID: <5724306A-EB9C-4B8F-9C56-119E19AE1F16@gmail.com> HI All, What is the recommendation for 72 cell 280 watt 120/240v micro inverters? Enphase don’t have one. This is on my old house. Still has a AEI-GC-1000. The modules have got to come off as well as they are old mobil’s. All just about dead. I’ve got a good deal on 72cell, 280 watt modules, so trying to find a micro for that or maybe a small And its only for 1500-2000 watts max. Thats all I can fit. thanks jay From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri Oct 23 10:31:32 2015 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 10:31:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery recommendation WAS: Rolls batteries In-Reply-To: References: <899177C8-3C69-44F7-B9FD-25EA3DF88821@swnl.net> <2cd7c5cc35f189b528e6d0fcfdc930a5.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> <562928A7.3010106@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <20151023143134.5FE4C10BD8@che.dreamhost.com> Hi Allan and Jay, I second the golf cart battery option. Trojan T-105s seem to be the most bang for the buck. An 800 W array wouldn't stir up the electrolyte sufficiently in an L-16. Maybe the backup generator would. What all is she running? Drake At 06:40 PM 10/22/2015, you wrote: >Hi Allan, > >A few questions. > >how little energy? amp hrs night/avg. >and >is mx something this person does or would like to do without? > >But given what you've said, I wouldn't go with wet cell industrial >as you'll never get the C rate you need. If the 8 x L-16's have >done her well ( and probably the battery box is set up for that form >factor) and with your budget I'd go with another set of L-16's >flooded or sealed if the budget/want allows. > >And if the need is really quite small, I"d consider golf cart. Yea >yea,I hear all the laughs, but where I live, golf carts seem to have >the life they always have, but L-16's ( all brands) seem to have a >shorter and shorter life for reasons I don't understand. > > >jay > >peltz power > > > > >>On Oct 22, 2015, at 11:19 AM, Allan Sindelar >><allan at sindelarsolar.com> wrote: >> >>I have a related question, please. One of my longtime off grid >>clients is a single woman who maintains a nonprofit sanctuary for >>about 30 rescue dogs, both adoptable and not adoptable (curious? >>www.bridgingtheworlds.org). With >>that many animals, Beverly seldom leaves her remote land and her >>support and sustenance comes primarily from donations. Her existing >>system is a 18-year-old SW4024/Solar Boost SB50, with 800W of old >>array and eight L16s. >> >>The L16s were takeouts from another job that I figured had some >>life left (used for two years in another contractor's Sunny Island >>GTBB system without telling the customer that he needed to add >>water regularly). I gave them to her at no cost and they lasted >>three years but are now dying fast. >> >>At my suggestion she has been running a GoFundMe campaign that has >>raised $2900. I have already told her that I'll do the swapout at >>no charge. I told her that the choice of her next set of batteries >>would depend on the money she raised: we have another 24V set of >>820A/hr Rolls that I think has some life left, or we can afford 8 >>L16s, or with the most generous donation total I'll order a set of >>HUPs and they'll last her the rest of her life (or maybe not - >>she's healthy, beautiful and independent at 71 years). >> >>So, my question: At $3,000 and 24V, what would you sell her? This >>is bound to bring varied opinions, but I want to look beyond what I >>would select based on price and get other Wrenches' suggestions. >>I'll add that while the array is small and old, she lives well on >>very little energy, and has a TriMetric and a backup generator. >> >>Thank you for your opinions. >>Allan >> >>Allan Sindelar >>allan at sindelarsolar.com >>NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional >>New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >>Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >>505 780-2738 cell >> >> >>On 10/22/2015 11:50 AM, >>penobscotsolar at midmaine.com wrote: >>> >>>As with Tump, we have been using the KS series for over 20 years with >>>little issue. My own particular caveat is that we have now started to use >>>Crown as well and are finding them as rugged, easier to move (metal cases >>>with handles), with built in water miser caps, and a better warranty, and >>>with great success. I also echo Tumps sentiments with Roy at RAE. We have >>>been buying from him since our inception in 1988. >>> >>>Daryl >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>>The 5000 series are what we always recommend and install for my off grid >>>>clients. 2 volt cells are the only way we go. Despite what folks believe, >>>>we find it easier to handle the KS series then the L16. >>>>We have been using them for many years and as with ANY manu, they have and >>>>had issues BUT...... we feel w/ proper system sizing, education of the >>>>client & record keeping we have yet to have an issue w/ warrantee claims. >>>>That being said we have had a long relationship W/Jamie Surrette and his >>>>supplier, Roy Early and his crew at RAE Battery, one of the best >>>>suppliers in our 27+ years. >>>>On Oct 22, 2015, at 11:15 AM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>>Hi Wrenches, >>>>> >>>>>Anyone using Rolls Surrette batteries? Happy with them? Worth the >>>>>extra $$$? >>>>> >>>>>Thanks for the feedback, >>>>>Kris >>>>> >>>>>-- >>>>>Shine On! >>>>> >>>>>Kris Schmid >>>>>Legacy Solar, LLC >>>>>864 Clam Falls Trail >>>>>Frederic, WI 54837 >>>>>www.legacysolar.com >>>>>715-653-4295 >>>>>NABCEP Certified PV Installer >>>>>Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician >>>>>BSEE >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>>List Address: >>>>>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>>Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>>List-Archive: >>>>>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>>List rules & etiquette: >>>>>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>>Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>Tump at swnl.net >>>>>www.SWNL.net >>>>> Solarwinds Northernlights >>>>> Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California >>>>> 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 >>>>> Blair "TUMP" May >>>>> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>>>> NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" >>>>> >>>>> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>>>> Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" >>>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>>List Address: >>>>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>>Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>>List-Archive: >>>>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>>List rules & etiquette: >>>>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>>Check out or update participant bios: >>>>www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>>List Address: >>>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>>Change listserver email address & settings: >>>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>>List-Archive: >>>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>>List rules & etiquette: >>>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>>Check out or update participant bios: >>>www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >>List Address: >>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >>Change listserver email address & settings: >>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >>List-Archive: >>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >>List rules & etiquette: >>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >>Check out or update participant bios: >>www.members.re-wrenches.org > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 11:55:36 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 08:55:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Current limiting fuse at battery bank In-Reply-To: References: <56298CC9.4050709@taitem.com> <61517B51-F874-4CF7-A54C-6F2234DD77B6@seesolar.com> Message-ID: <8E24C161-1DBB-498F-A85C-85986CC66AB2@gmail.com> HI Dan, All the big three have the same wiring diagrams with a positive buss and then breakers going out from there. And yes there is no main disco for the DC branches. But if your point was that the fuse could/will blow and then you have the PV/wind connected to the inverter and could over volt it, then yes I agree. This was actually a problem that happened to a friend using some rapid shutdown with a trip/breaker at the battery. It shut down the battery but the system continued to work as the PV had enough energy to feed the inverter/loads. And in the really old days of the first power panels from Trace, they did wire them the way maybe you are taking about Dan. With the main breaker as a main, and the PV/inverter connected on the switched side. But then PV is connected directly to the inverter and those old CC didn’t clamp that fast, and poof dead inverter. Amazingly I just “updated” a trace PP from way back a few months ago. I am of the opinion ( in the minority here) that fuses are not a good addition for protection of the conductors. They add complexity and more failure modes. ( I’ve seen class T fuse holders almost catch on fire). And now you are going to have to leave extra fuses $$$ and then insulated tools as well? And as others have pointed out, where do you mount them etc. And in my defense, mostly my conductors are pretty short so I don’t worry about that. If they were going a long ways, then I might reconsider, but I’d probably use a breaker instead. The only time I will use them is for larger parallel battery banks, but this is for the protection of the battery side, not the main conductors really. my 2c. jay peltz power > On Oct 23, 2015, at 7:30 AM, Dan Fink wrote: > > Esteemed Wrenches; > This creeps me out too and sometimes causes lack of sleep. > The Midnite Solar power panel install manual shows no OCPD on in DC + main from battery bank to power panel. Easy to wire the main DC breaker to control those conductors, but then you have a "self destruct" switch if system shutdown and restart is not done in the proper order, IE PV and wind turbine shut down first before battery bank. > For a class T fuse on the battery bank, it's a big $ ordeal because it has to be outside the battery box in an enclosure per NEC. > So, recently I've just been making sure the conduit from DC battery mains is sound up to the power panel. The only issue I can see is mice chewing 2/0 cable inside the battery box -- which means the box wasn't designed right to exclude rodents, or the owner has a lazy cat. > I'd feel much better if there was an OCPD NEC legal to attach right to the main battery DC + and wire from there to power panel, but I don't think that exists. > > > > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 11:26 PM, Mbalchowsky > wrote: > It's ALWAYS good practice to install a current limiting fuse at the battery bank, if fact it's very poor practice not to. We're working with a lot of larger lithium ion phosphate manganese systems and I would not install them without it. As far as working on someone else's install, make your contract very clear as to what the customer can expect as far as your liability when working on an existing system. The more detail, the better..... > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Oct 22, 2015, at 7:25 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> I agree, fuse it >> >> Jerry >> >> On Oct 22, 2015 3:26 PM, "Tom Ruscitti" > wrote: >> On battery based systems I always install a Class T fuse as close to the battery bank as possible. 690.71(C) is a little vague in requiring a current limiting fuse only where the available short-circuit current from the battery bank exceeds the interrupting ratings of the inverter breaker. Inverter breakers vary in their interrupting ratings and battery banks are big current sources when things go wrong, so it's just a sensible best practice. My question is about service work on systems we didn't install. We're quoting the second job this year for battery replacement where there is no current limiting fuse installed. It's always a tough question to judge what extra work might be required when you touch another contractor's system, but does anyone have an opinion about recommending or requiring the installation of a fuse at the battery box as part of the battery replacement? >> >> Thanks, >> >> - Tom >> >> -- >> Tom Ruscitti >> Senior Engineer >> >> Taitem Engineering, PC >> 110 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 >> Mobile: (607) 220-7022 >> www.taitem.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Fri Oct 23 13:01:40 2015 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 11:01:40 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 72 cell micro inverters In-Reply-To: <5724306A-EB9C-4B8F-9C56-119E19AE1F16@gmail.com> References: <899177C8-3C69-44F7-B9FD-25EA3DF88821@swnl.net> <2cd7c5cc35f189b528e6d0fcfdc930a5.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> <562928A7.3010106@sindelarsolar.com> <01a301d10d2c$e9c18130$bd448390$@com> <5724306A-EB9C-4B8F-9C56-119E19AE1F16@gmail.com> Message-ID: APS microinverters will work. Each YC500A handles two modules each and each YC1000 handles 4 modules. https://usa.apsystems.com/ *Benn Kilburn * CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc 6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7 P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com [image: email] [image: facebook] [image: twitter] [image: linkedin] [image: google] [image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal] On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 10:03 AM, jay wrote: > HI All, > > What is the recommendation for 72 cell 280 watt 120/240v micro inverters? > > Enphase don’t have one. > > This is on my old house. Still has a AEI-GC-1000. > The modules have got to come off as well as they are old mobil’s. > All just about dead. > > I’ve got a good deal on 72cell, 280 watt modules, so trying to find a > micro for that or maybe a small > And its only for 1500-2000 watts max. Thats all I can fit. > > thanks > jay > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 13:03:13 2015 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 11:03:13 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery recommendation WAS: Rolls batteries In-Reply-To: <028e01d10dae$fcda2380$f68e6a80$@com> References: <899177C8-3C69-44F7-B9FD-25EA3DF88821@swnl.net> <2cd7c5cc35f189b528e6d0fcfdc930a5.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> <562928A7.3010106@sindelarsolar.com> <01a301d10d2c$e9c18130$bd448390$@com> <028e01d10dae$fcda2380$f68e6a80$@com> Message-ID: Dave, it's 6 T-105s and over the winter the only load is the CC and inverter. Temperature is unknown, though likely gets to -20F. There is insulation, not that it does any good if they are not charging to capture some heat. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 10:22 AM, Dave wrote: > Hey Dan, > > > > Interesting voltage numbers. How many T-105's in this system and what is > the load? What is the temperature of the battery bank? > > > > Thanks, > > Dave > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Dan Fink > *Sent:* Friday, October 23, 2015 10:51 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery recommendation WAS: Rolls batteries > > > > Another thumbs up on Trojan T-105 golf cart batteries. They take owner > abuse with grace and dignity, are easy to move via non-truck methods and > with shipping caps on the cells even helicopter operators don't whine too > much. > > Here's some data aq from one of my helo installs in northern BC that gets > zero sun 3 months of the year. These T-105s have been in place since 2009 > and are still going strong. > > > > > Dan Fink > > Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute > > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > > ~ PV Installation Professional > > ~ Small Wind Installer > > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > > NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 6:51 PM, Dave > wrote: > > Jay, > > > > I second your thumbs up for golf cart batteries for their value to budget > wise off-gridders. I sell a lot of Trojan T-105's (selling more of the RE > models the last few years) to do-it-yourselfers with small systems. I have > not seen problems with two, and up to three strings of these in 24v > systems. Many of my customers can't afford the more expensive batteries and > they have been getting 8 to 12 years of service from T-105's. > > > > David Palumbo > > Independent Power LLC > > 462 Solar Way Drive > > Hyde Park, VT 05655 > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *jay > *Sent:* Thursday, October 22, 2015 6:40 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Battery recommendation WAS: Rolls batteries > > > > Hi Allan, > > > > A few questions. > > > > how little energy? amp hrs night/avg. > > and > > is mx something this person does or would like to do without? > > > > But given what you’ve said, I wouldn’t go with wet cell industrial as > you’ll never get the C rate you need. If the 8 x L-16’s have done her > well ( and probably the battery box is set up for that form factor) and > with your budget I’d go with another set of L-16’s flooded or sealed if > the budget/want allows. > > > > And if the need is really quite small, I”d consider golf cart. Yea yea,I > hear all the laughs, but where I live, golf carts seem to have the life > they always have, but L-16’s ( all brands) seem to have a shorter and > shorter life for reasons I don’t understand. > > > > > > jay > > > > peltz power > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 22, 2015, at 11:19 AM, Allan Sindelar > wrote: > > > > I have a related question, please. One of my longtime off grid clients is > a single woman who maintains a nonprofit sanctuary for about 30 rescue > dogs, both adoptable and not adoptable (curious? www.bridgingtheworlds.org). > With that many animals, Beverly seldom leaves her remote land and her > support and sustenance comes primarily from donations. Her existing system > is a 18-year-old SW4024/Solar Boost SB50, with 800W of old array and eight > L16s. > > The L16s were takeouts from another job that I figured had some life left > (used for two years in another contractor's Sunny Island GTBB system > without telling the customer that he needed to add water regularly). I gave > them to her at no cost and they lasted three years but are now dying fast. > > At my suggestion she has been running a GoFundMe campaign that has raised > $2900. I have already told her that I'll do the swapout at no charge. I > told her that the choice of her next set of batteries would depend on the > money she raised: we have another 24V set of 820A/hr Rolls that I think has > some life left, or we can afford 8 L16s, or with the most generous donation > total I'll order a set of HUPs and they'll last her the rest of her life > (or maybe not - she's healthy, beautiful and independent at 71 years). > > So, my question: At $3,000 and 24V, what would you sell her? This is bound > to bring varied opinions, but I want to look beyond what I would select > based on price and get other Wrenches' suggestions. I'll add that while the > array is small and old, she lives well on very little energy, and has a > TriMetric and a backup generator. > > Thank you for your opinions. > Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell* > > > > On 10/22/2015 11:50 AM, penobscotsolar at midmaine.com wrote: > > As with Tump, we have been using the KS series for over 20 years with > > little issue. My own particular caveat is that we have now started to use > > Crown as well and are finding them as rugged, easier to move (metal cases > > with handles), with built in water miser caps, and a better warranty, and > > with great success. I also echo Tumps sentiments with Roy at RAE. We have > > been buying from him since our inception in 1988. > > > > Daryl > > > > > > > > The 5000 series are what we always recommend and install for my off grid > > clients. 2 volt cells are the only way we go. Despite what folks believe, > > we find it easier to handle the KS series then the L16. > > We have been using them for many years and as with ANY manu, they have and > > had issues BUT...... we feel w/ proper system sizing, education of the > > client & record keeping we have yet to have an issue w/ warrantee claims. > > That being said we have had a long relationship W/Jamie Surrette and his > > supplier, Roy Early and his crew at RAE Battery, one of the best > > suppliers in our 27+ years. > > On Oct 22, 2015, at 11:15 AM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: > > > > Hi Wrenches, > > > > Anyone using Rolls Surrette batteries? Happy with them? Worth the > > extra $$$? > > > > Thanks for the feedback, > > Kris > > > > -- > > Shine On! > > > > Kris Schmid > > Legacy Solar, LLC > > 864 Clam Falls Trail > > Frederic, WI 54837 > > www.legacysolar.com > > 715-653-4295 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > > BSEE > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > > Solarwinds Northernlights > > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > > Blair "TUMP" May > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 13:02:42 2015 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 07:02:42 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 72 cell micro inverters In-Reply-To: <5724306A-EB9C-4B8F-9C56-119E19AE1F16@gmail.com> References: <899177C8-3C69-44F7-B9FD-25EA3DF88821@swnl.net> <2cd7c5cc35f189b528e6d0fcfdc930a5.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> <562928A7.3010106@sindelarsolar.com> <01a301d10d2c$e9c18130$bd448390$@com> <5724306A-EB9C-4B8F-9C56-119E19AE1F16@gmail.com> Message-ID: The enphase 250 if you had 3 phase might try a SMA 3K-22 Jerry On Oct 23, 2015 6:39 AM, "jay" wrote: > HI All, > > What is the recommendation for 72 cell 280 watt 120/240v micro inverters? > > Enphase don’t have one. > > This is on my old house. Still has a AEI-GC-1000. > The modules have got to come off as well as they are old mobil’s. > All just about dead. > > I’ve got a good deal on 72cell, 280 watt modules, so trying to find a > micro for that or maybe a small > And its only for 1500-2000 watts max. Thats all I can fit. > > thanks > jay > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 13:41:04 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 10:41:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 72 cell micro inverters In-Reply-To: References: <899177C8-3C69-44F7-B9FD-25EA3DF88821@swnl.net> <2cd7c5cc35f189b528e6d0fcfdc930a5.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> <562928A7.3010106@sindelarsolar.com> <01a301d10d2c$e9c18130$bd448390$@com> <5724306A-EB9C-4B8F-9C56-119E19AE1F16@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks, but this is residential. 120/240 J Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 23, 2015, at 10:02 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > The enphase 250 if you had 3 phase might try a SMA 3K-22 > Jerry > >> On Oct 23, 2015 6:39 AM, "jay" wrote: >> HI All, >> >> What is the recommendation for 72 cell 280 watt 120/240v micro inverters? >> >> Enphase don’t have one. >> >> This is on my old house. Still has a AEI-GC-1000. >> The modules have got to come off as well as they are old mobil’s. >> All just about dead. >> >> I’ve got a good deal on 72cell, 280 watt modules, so trying to find a micro for that or maybe a small >> And its only for 1500-2000 watts max. Thats all I can fit. >> >> thanks >> jay >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From truscitti at taitem.com Fri Oct 23 15:45:58 2015 From: truscitti at taitem.com (Tom Ruscitti) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 15:45:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Current limiting fuse at battery bank Message-ID: <562A8E76.5010505@taitem.com> Thanks, everyone. I see I'm not the only one juggling competing concerns on the battery fuse issue. For the service call that motivated my query I think we'll leave it as is - the installation has short battery cables in conduit into an Outback system, and no easy way to mount a fuse external to the battery box. On new installations with an external fuse made up in a PVC box and a CB on the inverter end, it's hard to see an actual safety reason to provide an isolating disconnect on the battery side as well. That NEC requirement makes good sense for 600V but... Thanks, - Tom -- Tom Ruscitti Senior Engineer Taitem Engineering, PC 110 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 Mobile: (607) 220-7022 www.taitem.com From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 16:03:03 2015 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 16:03:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 72 cell micro inverters In-Reply-To: References: <899177C8-3C69-44F7-B9FD-25EA3DF88821@swnl.net> <2cd7c5cc35f189b528e6d0fcfdc930a5.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> <562928A7.3010106@sindelarsolar.com> <01a301d10d2c$e9c18130$bd448390$@com> <5724306A-EB9C-4B8F-9C56-119E19AE1F16@gmail.com> Message-ID: The YC1000 is only three phase. On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > APS microinverters will work. Each YC500A handles two modules each and > each YC1000 handles 4 modules. > > https://usa.apsystems.com/ > > *Benn Kilburn * > CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc > 6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7 > P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com > [image: email] [image: facebook] > [image: twitter] > [image: linkedin] > > [image: google] > > [image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal] > > On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 10:03 AM, jay wrote: > >> HI All, >> >> What is the recommendation for 72 cell 280 watt 120/240v micro inverters? >> >> Enphase don’t have one. >> >> This is on my old house. Still has a AEI-GC-1000. >> The modules have got to come off as well as they are old mobil’s. >> All just about dead. >> >> I’ve got a good deal on 72cell, 280 watt modules, so trying to find a >> micro for that or maybe a small >> And its only for 1500-2000 watts max. Thats all I can fit. >> >> thanks >> jay >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hathasolar at yahoo.com Fri Oct 23 15:23:00 2015 From: hathasolar at yahoo.com (Wesley Kennedy) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 13:23:00 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 72 cell micro inverters In-Reply-To: References: <899177C8-3C69-44F7-B9FD-25EA3DF88821@swnl.net> <2cd7c5cc35f189b528e6d0fcfdc930a5.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> <562928A7.3010106@sindelarsolar.com> <01a301d10d2c$e9c18130$bd448390$@com> <5724306A-EB9C-4B8F-9C56-119E19AE1F16@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C552B74-606D-4A20-8DFA-912C576EFB46@yahoo.com> Fronius Galvo. 1.5 KW -Wes 303-653-3073 > On Oct 23, 2015, at 11:41 AM, Jay wrote: > > Thanks, but this is residential. 120/240 > J > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Oct 23, 2015, at 10:02 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >> >> The enphase 250 if you had 3 phase might try a SMA 3K-22 >> Jerry >> >>> On Oct 23, 2015 6:39 AM, "jay" wrote: >>> HI All, >>> >>> What is the recommendation for 72 cell 280 watt 120/240v micro inverters? >>> >>> Enphase don’t have one. >>> >>> This is on my old house. Still has a AEI-GC-1000. >>> The modules have got to come off as well as they are old mobil’s. >>> All just about dead. >>> >>> I’ve got a good deal on 72cell, 280 watt modules, so trying to find a micro for that or maybe a small >>> And its only for 1500-2000 watts max. Thats all I can fit. >>> >>> thanks >>> jay >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirk at vtsolar.com Fri Oct 23 15:52:11 2015 From: kirk at vtsolar.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 15:52:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] off-grid water pump Message-ID: <00d301d10dcc$4ed115f0$ec7341d0$@vtsolar.com> Hello, I'm replacing an old Solarjack pump with a similar Sunpump in a tiled well about 12' deep. I'd like to find a flexible water pipe so I can leave enough coiled in the well to pull the pump straight out to dry land without disconnecting. Standard poly pipe kinks too easy. Thanks. Kirk Herander Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Proven PV provider since 1991 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Fri Oct 23 17:44:54 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 15:44:54 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] off-grid water pump In-Reply-To: <00d301d10dcc$4ed115f0$ec7341d0$@vtsolar.com> References: <00d301d10dcc$4ed115f0$ec7341d0$@vtsolar.com> Message-ID: <24549B52-4D56-4466-BE2B-5F07D5FCACAF@sindelarsolar.com> Kirk, This is on my iPhone and I'm barely literate on it compared to my kids, so it'll likely mess up... Use 3/4" SDR-9 black 140 psi black poly pipe with sleeved compression connectors. This has been used for years for hand installation of submersibles, down to 250-350'. I would guess that it will probably work in a 3' or larger dug well. Contact me off list if you need more. I have worked with it many times. Allan > On Oct 23, 2015, at 1:52 PM, "Kirk Herander" wrote: > > Hello, > I’m replacing an old Solarjack pump with a similar Sunpump in a tiled well about 12’ deep. I’d like to find a flexible water pipe so I can leave enough coiled in the well to pull the pump straight out to dry land without disconnecting. Standard poly pipe kinks too easy. Thanks. > > Kirk Herander > Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC > Proven PV provider since 1991 > www.vermontsolarnow.com > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > 802.863.1202 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 19:04:46 2015 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 19:04:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] off-grid water pump In-Reply-To: <00d301d10dcc$4ed115f0$ec7341d0$@vtsolar.com> References: <00d301d10dcc$4ed115f0$ec7341d0$@vtsolar.com> Message-ID: Look at HDPE. It is a fused pipe, very tough, flexible, available in a variety of wall thicknesses. On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 3:52 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: > Hello, > > I’m replacing an old Solarjack pump with a similar Sunpump in a tiled well > about 12’ deep. I’d like to find a flexible water pipe so I can leave > enough coiled in the well to pull the pump straight out to dry land without > disconnecting. Standard poly pipe kinks too easy. Thanks. > > > > *Kirk Herander* > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC * > > *Proven PV provider since 1991* > > *www.vermontsolarnow.com * > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > 802.863.1202 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Fri Oct 23 19:35:48 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 17:35:48 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Current limiting fuse at battery bank In-Reply-To: References: <56298CC9.4050709@taitem.com> <61517B51-F874-4CF7-A54C-6F2234DD77B6@seesolar.com> Message-ID: <562AC454.6070908@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Fri Oct 23 20:08:14 2015 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (Peter Giroux) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 20:08:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Can anyone identify this mounting system and module References: Message-ID: <8134D74B7BCA4DA69CCC25153181FB14@PeterPC> Carl They look like the Westinghouse product. Their new name is Andalay solar ( no Seinfeld reference ). We installed one of these, very high failure rate with the enphase 190's requiring us to remove the system and replace them. All the splice rods where corroded and we had to use a sawzall to cut off every panel. They absolutely denied their defective product and did little to help. Good luck with them. peter giroux ASAE ----- Original Message ----- From: Carl Adams To: RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 10:59 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Can anyone identify this mounting system and module I have not been onsite but was sent some photos. This system needs removed for reroofing. I am not familiar which this mounting hardware/module. Pictures attached. Thanks Carl Adams SunRock Solar ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Fri Oct 23 20:21:11 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 18:21:11 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery recommendation WAS: Rolls batteries In-Reply-To: <20151023143134.5FE4C10BD8@che.dreamhost.com> References: <899177C8-3C69-44F7-B9FD-25EA3DF88821@swnl.net> <2cd7c5cc35f189b528e6d0fcfdc930a5.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> <562928A7.3010106@sindelarsolar.com> <20151023143134.5FE4C10BD8@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <562ACEF7.5070109@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Sat Oct 24 00:51:38 2015 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 21:51:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery recommendation WAS: Rolls batteries References: <899177C8-3C69-44F7-B9FD-25EA3DF88821@swnl.net><2cd7c5cc35f189b528e6d0fcfdc930a5.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com><562928A7.3010106@sindelarsolar.com><20151023143134.5FE4C10BD8@che.dreamhost.com> <562ACEF7.5070109@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Is the other side of the coin, though, use one string of high capacity L-16's to: reduce the number of cables and their connections to terminals (failure points, maintenance), reduce the watering hassle (half as many cells to check, water, take SGs), because there are less cells you're more likely to check SG's, only dropping into the 90% range for the overnight discharge sounds like she could do with one string, no worries about fusing a second string. I'm not discounting the usefulness of GC batteries, but I'm not seeing L-16s having a worse track record. I think you guys have more experience in that regard than I do. Bill Feather River Solar Electric ----- Original Message ----- From: Allan Sindelar To: RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, October 23, 2015 5:21 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery recommendation WAS: Rolls batteries Thanks, esteemed Wrenches, I'm thinking that she would do fine with 440 A/hr of T105 REs. Jay asked about her loads. I emailed her this earlier today: Beverly, Back when the batteries were still strong, if you ended a day's charging at 100%, what would the percentage be when you awoke the next morning? I'm looking for typical, in order to address a question about your replacement batteries. And she replied "probably in the 90s...I think..." She can live on nothing if she has to. So it's either two strings of good golf carts or two strings of non-high-capacity L16s. And I like Jerry's suggestion to talk with my battery distributor. And I like Jay's suggestion re the box - yes, it was sized for 8 L16s, so it's either L16s or smaller unless we rebuild it. I too have respect for golf carts - way more respect for golf carts than for L16s in general. Golf cart batteries have a greater capacity for absurd abuse then anything else I have ever seen. I'd give Beverly three strings if the box had room. With minimal care 5 years is safe, and she's not perfect but she's pretty good. So at this point (unless Steve Higgins at Surrette talks me otherwise) I'll go with 8 golf carts and save the rest for the next set, or for more array. Thank you! Allan Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell On 10/23/2015 8:31 AM, Drake wrote: Hi Allan and Jay, I second the golf cart battery option. Trojan T-105s seem to be the most bang for the buck. An 800 W array wouldn't stir up the electrolyte sufficiently in an L-16. Maybe the backup generator would. What all is she running? Drake At 06:40 PM 10/22/2015, you wrote: Hi Allan, A few questions. how little energy? amp hrs night/avg. and is mx something this person does or would like to do without? But given what you’ve said, I wouldn’t go with wet cell industrial as you’ll never get the C rate you need. If the 8 x L-16’s have done her well ( and probably the battery box is set up for that form factor) and with your budget I’d go with another set of L-16’s flooded or sealed if the budget/want allows. And if the need is really quite small, I”d consider golf cart. Yea yea,I hear all the laughs, but where I live, golf carts seem to have the life they always have, but L-16’s ( all brands) seem to have a shorter and shorter life for reasons I don’t understand. jay, peltz power On Oct 22, 2015, at 11:19 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: I have a related question, please. One of my longtime off grid clients is a single woman who maintains a nonprofit sanctuary for about 30 rescue dogs, both adoptable and not adoptable (curious? www.bridgingtheworlds.org ). With that many animals, Beverly seldom leaves her remote land and her support and sustenance comes primarily from donations. Her existing system is a 18-year-old SW4024/Solar Boost SB50, with 800W of old array and eight L16s. The L16s were takeouts from another job that I figured had some life left (used for two years in another contractor's Sunny Island GTBB system without telling the customer that he needed to add water regularly). I gave them to her at no cost and they lasted three years but are now dying fast. At my suggestion she has been running a GoFundMe campaign that has raised $2900. I have already told her that I'll do the swapout at no charge. I told her that the choice of her next set of batteries would depend on the money she raised: we have another 24V set of 820A/hr Rolls that I think has some life left, or we can afford 8 L16s, or with the most generous donation total I'll order a set of HUPs and they'll last her the rest of her life (or maybe not - she's healthy, beautiful and independent at 71 years). So, my question: At $3,000 and 24V, what would you sell her? This is bound to bring varied opinions, but I want to look beyond what I would select based on price and get other Wrenches' suggestions. I'll add that while the array is small and old, she lives well on very little energy, and has a TriMetric and a backup generator. Thank you for your opinions. Allan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amfrish at aeonsolar.com Sat Oct 24 07:50:38 2015 From: amfrish at aeonsolar.com (Allen Frishman) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 07:50:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Combined Inverter Fuse sizing Message-ID: <5F331D6C-A194-4CDD-9A48-4D6685775983@aeonsolar.com> Wrencher's, Quick question regarding sizing the fuse for a combined group of inverters. If I have six 10KW three phase inverters each with a max AC current of 30A they each require a 3 pole 40 A breaker. If I then take the combined output of the AC combiner panel I see two possible options for sizing the combined fuse size. 6 inverters x 40A breakers each = 240A so I need to use a 250A fuse 6 Inverters x 30A max output each = 180A x 1.25 = 225A Fuse Seems like both are acceptable options since all wire will be protected. All feedback is appreciated. Al Frishman AeonSolar (917) 699-6641 - cell (888) 460-2867 www.aeonsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Sat Oct 24 09:32:24 2015 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 07:32:24 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Combined Inverter Fuse sizing In-Reply-To: <5F331D6C-A194-4CDD-9A48-4D6685775983@aeonsolar.com> References: <5F331D6C-A194-4CDD-9A48-4D6685775983@aeonsolar.com> Message-ID: Hi Allen, I always use the max output current method, not the fuse rating downstream. Good Luck On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 5:50 AM, Allen Frishman wrote: > Wrencher's, > Quick question regarding sizing the fuse for a combined group of > inverters. If I have six 10KW three phase inverters each with a max AC > current of 30A they each require a 3 pole 40 A breaker. If I then take > the combined output of the AC combiner panel I see two possible options for > sizing the combined fuse size. > > 6 inverters x 40A breakers each = 240A so I need to use a 250A fuse > 6 Inverters x 30A max output each = 180A x 1.25 = 225A Fuse > > Seems like both are acceptable options since all wire will be protected. > > All feedback is appreciated. > > *Al Frishman* > AeonSolar > > *(917) 699-6641 <%28917%29%20699-6641> - cell* > *(888) 460-2867 <%28888%29%20460-2867>* > *www.aeonsolar.com * > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sat Oct 24 08:39:55 2015 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:39:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Combined Inverter Fuse sizing In-Reply-To: <5F331D6C-A194-4CDD-9A48-4D6685775983@aeonsolar.com> References: <5F331D6C-A194-4CDD-9A48-4D6685775983@aeonsolar.com> Message-ID: <20151024124010.59D8E101BF@che.dreamhost.com> Two things, Combined OCPD sizing is based on the output current of the inverters, not the individual OCPD values. And in most 3 phase systems you will have a square root of 2 to factor into your calculations. Sincerely, Glenn Burt Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. -----Original Message----- From: "Allen Frishman" Sent: ‎10/‎24/‎2015 7:50 To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: [RE-wrenches] Combined Inverter Fuse sizing Wrencher's, Quick question regarding sizing the fuse for a combined group of inverters. If I have six 10KW three phase inverters each with a max AC current of 30A they each require a 3 pole 40 A breaker. If I then take the combined output of the AC combiner panel I see two possible options for sizing the combined fuse size. 6 inverters x 40A breakers each = 240A so I need to use a 250A fuse 6 Inverters x 30A max output each = 180A x 1.25 = 225A Fuse Seems like both are acceptable options since all wire will be protected. All feedback is appreciated. Al Frishman AeonSolar (917) 699-6641 - cell (888) 460-2867 www.aeonsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Oct 24 08:04:05 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:04:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Combined Inverter Fuse sizing In-Reply-To: <5F331D6C-A194-4CDD-9A48-4D6685775983@aeonsolar.com> References: <5F331D6C-A194-4CDD-9A48-4D6685775983@aeonsolar.com> Message-ID: Combined circuits use the sum of inverter output ratings x 1.25, so the 225A fuse is your answer I believe. Consider the case with paralleled microinverters. For example, the max Enphase M250 with 1.0A rating on a 20A string is 16 x 1.0 x 1.25 = 20A. If you have multiple branch circuits you would take the total number of microinverters times the rating time 1.25 to get the combined circuit wire size and OCPD requirements. The same methodology would apply to string inverters. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 7:50 AM, Allen Frishman wrote: > Wrencher's, > Quick question regarding sizing the fuse for a combined group of > inverters. If I have six 10KW three phase inverters each with a max AC > current of 30A they each require a 3 pole 40 A breaker. If I then take > the combined output of the AC combiner panel I see two possible options for > sizing the combined fuse size. > > 6 inverters x 40A breakers each = 240A so I need to use a 250A fuse > 6 Inverters x 30A max output each = 180A x 1.25 = 225A Fuse > > Seems like both are acceptable options since all wire will be protected. > > All feedback is appreciated. > > *Al Frishman* > AeonSolar > > *(917) 699-6641 <%28917%29%20699-6641> - cell* > *(888) 460-2867 <%28888%29%20460-2867>* > *www.aeonsolar.com * > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Oct 24 18:27:34 2015 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 18:27:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Combined Inverter Fuse sizing In-Reply-To: <20151024124010.59D8E101BF@che.dreamhost.com> References: <5F331D6C-A194-4CDD-9A48-4D6685775983@aeonsolar.com> <20151024124010.59D8E101BF@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Clarification - it's square root of 3, not 2, and if the Inverter Output Current is specified on a datasheet for a 3-phase inverter, it would already have the factor applied and that is the rating used to apply to 1.25x factor. For example, Sunny Tripower 12,000 has a inverter output rating of: 12000 / 480 / sqrt(3) = 14.43 (listed as 14.5). Multiply the number of inverters times 14.5 times 1.25 to get the combined OCPD and wire rating required. On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 8:39 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: > Two things, > Combined OCPD sizing is based on the output current of the inverters, not > the individual OCPD values. > And in most 3 phase systems you will have a square root of 2 to factor > into your calculations. > > Sincerely, > Glenn Burt > Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. > ------------------------------ > From: Allen Frishman > Sent: ‎10/‎24/‎2015 7:50 > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Combined Inverter Fuse sizing > > Wrencher's, > Quick question regarding sizing the fuse for a combined group of > inverters. If I have six 10KW three phase inverters each with a max AC > current of 30A they each require a 3 pole 40 A breaker. If I then take > the combined output of the AC combiner panel I see two possible options for > sizing the combined fuse size. > > 6 inverters x 40A breakers each = 240A so I need to use a 250A fuse > 6 Inverters x 30A max output each = 180A x 1.25 = 225A Fuse > > Seems like both are acceptable options since all wire will be protected. > > All feedback is appreciated. > > *Al Frishman* > AeonSolar > > *(917) 699-6641 <%28917%29%20699-6641> - cell* > *(888) 460-2867 <%28888%29%20460-2867>* > *www.aeonsolar.com * > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Oct 24 11:17:09 2015 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:17:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Current limiting fuse at battery bank In-Reply-To: <56298CC9.4050709@taitem.com> References: <56298CC9.4050709@taitem.com> Message-ID: <96aeab00263681edb697b03d097777e7@mail.gmail.com> Tom: Here's how I approach this subject: In general there are two places to insert OCPDs to protect wire and devices: Upstream or downstream. For a vast majority of circumstances, it is preferred to place protection upstream, for obvious reasons. This is not to say protection cannot be placed downstream. This is done for taps and service entrance conductors. The philosophy is to minimize the probability of failure on the upstream side of the protection and the OCPD protects the upstream circuit from downstream faults. I think the same criteria applies for battery lead protection as it does for taps and SE cables: Minimize the risk by keeping leads short and protected from damage. If you follow these practices you can eliminate the need for fuses in proximity to the batteries. William PS: This relates to my complaints about the Sunny Island systems lack of BOS. If you use the Midnite Disconnect, it mounts right under the SI inverter. This can often be too far from the battery bank. Wm Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Tom Ruscitti Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 6:27 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Current limiting fuse at battery bank On battery based systems I always install a Class T fuse as close to the battery bank as possible. 690.71(C) is a little vague in requiring a current limiting fuse only where the available short-circuit current from the battery bank exceeds the interrupting ratings of the inverter breaker. Inverter breakers vary in their interrupting ratings and battery banks are big current sources when things go wrong, so it's just a sensible best practice. My question is about service work on systems we didn't install. We're quoting the second job this year for battery replacement where there is no current limiting fuse installed. It's always a tough question to judge what extra work might be required when you touch another contractor's system, but does anyone have an opinion about recommending or requiring the installation of a fuse at the battery box as part of the battery replacement? Thanks, - Tom -- Tom Ruscitti Senior Engineer Taitem Engineering, PC 110 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 Mobile: (607) 220-7022 www.taitem.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htm l List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sat Oct 24 22:22:46 2015 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 22:22:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Combined Inverter Fuse sizing In-Reply-To: References: <5F331D6C-A194-4CDD-9A48-4D6685775983@aeonsolar.com> <20151024124010.59D8E101BF@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <20151025022306.722271057B@che.dreamhost.com> My bad, fat fingered another one. Sincerely, Glenn Burt Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. -----Original Message----- From: "Jason Szumlanski" Sent: ‎10/‎24/‎2015 18:27 To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Combined Inverter Fuse sizing Clarification - it's square root of 3, not 2, and if the Inverter Output Current is specified on a datasheet for a 3-phase inverter, it would already have the factor applied and that is the rating used to apply to 1.25x factor. For example, Sunny Tripower 12,000 has a inverter output rating of: 12000 / 480 / sqrt(3) = 14.43 (listed as 14.5). Multiply the number of inverters times 14.5 times 1.25 to get the combined OCPD and wire rating required. On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 8:39 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: > Two things, > Combined OCPD sizing is based on the output current of the inverters, not > the individual OCPD values. > And in most 3 phase systems you will have a square root of 2 to factor > into your calculations. > > Sincerely, > Glenn Burt > Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. > ------------------------------ > From: Allen Frishman > Sent: ‎10/‎24/‎2015 7:50 > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Combined Inverter Fuse sizing > > Wrencher's, > Quick question regarding sizing the fuse for a combined group of > inverters. If I have six 10KW three phase inverters each with a max AC > current of 30A they each require a 3 pole 40 A breaker. If I then take > the combined output of the AC combiner panel I see two possible options for > sizing the combined fuse size. > > 6 inverters x 40A breakers each = 240A so I need to use a 250A fuse > 6 Inverters x 30A max output each = 180A x 1.25 = 225A Fuse > > Seems like both are acceptable options since all wire will be protected. > > All feedback is appreciated. > > *Al Frishman* > AeonSolar > > *(917) 699-6641 <%28917%29%20699-6641> - cell* > *(888) 460-2867 <%28888%29%20460-2867>* > *www.aeonsolar.com * > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Sun Oct 25 06:59:27 2015 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (William Dorsett) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 05:59:27 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mage Solar US Support contact In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <049401d10f14$380fd7e0$a82f87a0$@sbcglobal.net> Carl, I wondered what would happen to other AC module manufacturers using these inverters after SolarBridge sold to SunPower. They were always warrantied through the module manu. Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kurt Johnsen Sent: Friday, October 23, 2015 11:38 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Mage Solar US Support contact wolfgang.beaugrand at magesolar.com Kurt Johnsen On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 8:52 PM, Carl Adams wrote: Hello Fellow wrenches, I have a couple of failed Mage solar AC modules. These are Mage Solar panels with an integrated Solardridge inverter. Anyone have a good contact number for Mage Solar US Support, or do I need to call Germany? Thanks Carl Adams SunRock Solar _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swingjunkie at gmail.com Sun Oct 25 08:40:41 2015 From: swingjunkie at gmail.com (Carl Adams) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 08:40:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mage Solar US Support contact In-Reply-To: <049401d10f14$380fd7e0$a82f87a0$@sbcglobal.net> References: <049401d10f14$380fd7e0$a82f87a0$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: SunPower support team evaluated the two failed inverters via the web interface and agreed to send out two replacement inverters Carl Adams On Oct 25, 2015 8:35 AM, "William Dorsett" wrote: > Carl, I wondered what would happen to other AC module manufacturers using > these inverters after SolarBridge sold to SunPower. They were always > warrantied through the module manu. > > > > Bill Dorsett > > Manhattan, KS > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Kurt Johnsen > *Sent:* Friday, October 23, 2015 11:38 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Mage Solar US Support contact > > > > wolfgang.beaugrand at magesolar.com > > Kurt Johnsen > > > > On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 8:52 PM, Carl Adams wrote: > > Hello Fellow wrenches, > > > > I have a couple of failed Mage solar AC modules. These are Mage Solar > panels with an integrated Solardridge inverter. Anyone have a good contact > number for Mage Solar US Support, or do I need to call Germany? > > > > Thanks > > Carl Adams > > SunRock Solar > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bill at berkssolar.com Sun Oct 25 11:50:26 2015 From: bill at berkssolar.com (Bill Hennessy) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 15:50:26 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] 72 cell micro inverters In-Reply-To: <5724306A-EB9C-4B8F-9C56-119E19AE1F16@gmail.com> References: <5724306A-EB9C-4B8F-9C56-119E19AE1F16@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1995904703.2328918.1445788226961.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> We would NOT recommend the ABB micro 3.0 inverters because of the problems with their wireless interface and router incompatibility. The install of 48 Suntech 300w modules went well, but there were 30 hours involved in hooking up the communications interface.  In the end, ABB tech support had us abandon the normal interface for a signal of over wire home-brew set up. Bill Hennessy Berks Solar, LLC 371 Centennial Rd Mertztown, PA 19539 o 610 682 4300 c 484 560 4666 NABCEP certified installer PA contractor #44411 www.berkssolar.com From: jay To: RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, October 23, 2015 12:03 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] 72 cell micro inverters HI All, What is the recommendation for 72 cell 280 watt  120/240v micro inverters? Enphase don’t have one. This is on my old house.  Still has a AEI-GC-1000. The modules have got to come off as well as they are old mobil’s. All just about dead. I’ve got a good deal on 72cell, 280 watt modules, so trying to find a micro for that or maybe a small And its only for 1500-2000 watts max.  Thats all I can fit. thanks jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sun Oct 25 18:32:44 2015 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 16:32:44 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery backup to Enphase Message-ID: Esteemed wrenches; I have a new client who has convinced himself the world as we know it will be ending in the next few months. He has ~6kW of Enphase and wants to add battery backup for critical loads.....quite a few of them. I recommended he buy some Kill-a-Watt units and start to monitor kWh usage. My first thought was the new Enphase "AC Battery system." Is this even available for purchase yet, and if so has anyone here tried it? I'm thinking ease if compatibility, tech support, warranty...... Otherwise will likely AC couple a new inverter. I was thinking an Outback Radian, and lithium batteries (looking at Iron Edison) as my prediction is they will be mostly sitting idle for the next 10 years at least. Any pitfalls, horror stories, and no-nos anyone is willing to share? Crossed off NiFe; my house runs on them and they are fairly high-maintenance, as I predict this client will be. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Sun Oct 25 21:52:35 2015 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (William Dorsett) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 20:52:35 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery backup to Enphase In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <051501d10f90$fd2df5d0$f789e170$@sbcglobal.net> I talked with Enphase tech support a couple months ago, and he expected their AC Battery to be out 2nd Q 2016 at an unknown price. It is designed primarily for load shifting so isn’t big… maybe 1 kWh which you stack like you do inverter/module pairs along a trunk cable to whatever capacity you want. If it’s like their other hardware, I expect it to be well thought out and am looking forward to being an early adaptor. Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dan Fink Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2015 5:33 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery backup to Enphase Esteemed wrenches; I have a new client who has convinced himself the world as we know it will be ending in the next few months. He has ~6kW of Enphase and wants to add battery backup for critical loads.....quite a few of them. I recommended he buy some Kill-a-Watt units and start to monitor kWh usage. My first thought was the new Enphase "AC Battery system." Is this even available for purchase yet, and if so has anyone here tried it? I'm thinking ease if compatibility, tech support, warranty...... Otherwise will likely AC couple a new inverter. I was thinking an Outback Radian, and lithium batteries (looking at Iron Edison) as my prediction is they will be mostly sitting idle for the next 10 years at least. Any pitfalls, horror stories, and no-nos anyone is willing to share? Crossed off NiFe; my house runs on them and they are fairly high-maintenance, as I predict this client will be. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Oct 25 18:40:03 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 15:40:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery backup to Enphase In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52CEF9BB-E7CB-45C0-97D2-8D1C6E982F22@gmail.com> HI Dan, I’m sort of over these Preppers. I’m happy to take their money. If you want Lithium contact me at and I can give you some advice. I’d recommend sealed LA, and the radian for this guy, jay peltz power > On Oct 25, 2015, at 3:32 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > > Esteemed wrenches; > I have a new client who has convinced himself the world as we know it will be ending in the next few months. He has ~6kW of Enphase and wants to add battery backup for critical loads.....quite a few of them. I recommended he buy some Kill-a-Watt units and start to monitor kWh usage. > My first thought was the new Enphase "AC Battery system." Is this even available for purchase yet, and if so has anyone here tried it? I'm thinking ease if compatibility, tech support, warranty...... > Otherwise will likely AC couple a new inverter. I was thinking an Outback Radian, and lithium batteries (looking at Iron Edison) as my prediction is they will be mostly sitting idle for the next 10 years at least. Any pitfalls, horror stories, and no-nos anyone is willing to share? Crossed off NiFe; my house runs on them and they are fairly high-maintenance, as I predict this client will be. > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Oct 25 20:20:33 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 17:20:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 72 cell micro inverters In-Reply-To: <1995904703.2328918.1445788226961.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <5724306A-EB9C-4B8F-9C56-119E19AE1F16@gmail.com> <1995904703.2328918.1445788226961.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7DBBA275-2A1C-47DD-A7D4-EE7CF44ABBAD@gmail.com> Thanks all for the great info. I’ve got some pretty good morning afternoon shading so micros make better sense than the Galvo, but I”ll check that out. And I’ve got some really great pricing on some 72 cell 280 watt modules. Yea I’ve heard the ABB are a nightmare. I’ve got no experience or info on the APS. Anybody else have any besides Benn? Thanks all, jay > On Oct 25, 2015, at 8:50 AM, Bill Hennessy wrote: > > We would NOT recommend the ABB micro 3.0 inverters because of the problems with their wireless interface and router incompatibility. > The install of 48 Suntech 300w modules went well, but there were 30 hours involved in hooking up the communications interface. > In the end, ABB tech support had us abandon the normal interface for a signal of over wire home-brew set up. > > Bill Hennessy > Berks Solar, LLC > 371 Centennial Rd > Mertztown, PA 19539 > > o 610 682 4300 > c 484 560 4666 > NABCEP certified installer > PA contractor #44411 > www.berkssolar.com > > From: jay > To: RE-wrenches > Sent: Friday, October 23, 2015 12:03 PM > Subject: [RE-wrenches] 72 cell micro inverters > > HI All, > > What is the recommendation for 72 cell 280 watt 120/240v micro inverters? > > Enphase don’t have one. > > This is on my old house. Still has a AEI-GC-1000. > The modules have got to come off as well as they are old mobil’s. > All just about dead. > > I’ve got a good deal on 72cell, 280 watt modules, so trying to find a micro for that or maybe a small > And its only for 1500-2000 watts max. Thats all I can fit. > > thanks > jay > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Oct 25 20:33:56 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 17:33:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PG&E meter update In-Reply-To: <1995904703.2328918.1445788226961.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <5724306A-EB9C-4B8F-9C56-119E19AE1F16@gmail.com> <1995904703.2328918.1445788226961.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I wanted to follow up on the PG&E meter situation. This meter actually shows production/consumption in a small window on the lower left side. Which kind of makes me think that it is possible for it to limit its recording of sell back. And then it occurred to me that if its not recording then its probably also adding. IE if the actual production is 12kw, and the max is 8kw, then the 4kw is being added to the bill instead of subtracted. And of course the tilt of these modules means I can’t get full output even at mid day, I checked the other day, perfect conditions and only around 7.5kw, which is about what I would expect. So unless I pop in a radian to crank out 5kw, then I’m gonna have to wait until next spring to check this out. more as i know it, jay peltz power From solarworks at gmail.com Mon Oct 26 07:32:51 2015 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal Khalsa) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 04:32:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 72 cell micro inverters In-Reply-To: <7DBBA275-2A1C-47DD-A7D4-EE7CF44ABBAD@gmail.com> References: <5724306A-EB9C-4B8F-9C56-119E19AE1F16@gmail.com> <1995904703.2328918.1445788226961.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <7DBBA275-2A1C-47DD-A7D4-EE7CF44ABBAD@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay you also might consider Solar Edge optimizers for partial shade mitigation. Same effect as micro inverters...easy to implememt. Kirpal Khalsa Oregon Solarworks On Oct 26, 2015 12:48 AM, "jay" wrote: > Thanks all for the great info. > > I’ve got some pretty good morning afternoon shading so micros make better > sense than the Galvo, but I”ll check that out. > And I’ve got some really great pricing on some 72 cell 280 watt modules. > > Yea I’ve heard the ABB are a nightmare. > I’ve got no experience or info on the APS. Anybody else have any besides > Benn? > > Thanks all, > > jay > > > On Oct 25, 2015, at 8:50 AM, Bill Hennessy wrote: > > We would NOT recommend the ABB micro 3.0 inverters because of the problems > with their wireless interface and router incompatibility. > The install of 48 Suntech 300w modules went well, but there were 30 hours > involved in hooking up the communications interface. > In the end, ABB tech support had us abandon the normal interface for a > signal of over wire home-brew set up. > > Bill Hennessy > Berks Solar, LLC > 371 Centennial Rd > Mertztown, PA 19539 > > o 610 682 4300 > c 484 560 4666 > NABCEP certified installer > PA contractor #44411 > www.berkssolar.com > > ------------------------------ > *From:* jay > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Friday, October 23, 2015 12:03 PM > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] 72 cell micro inverters > > HI All, > > What is the recommendation for 72 cell 280 watt 120/240v micro inverters? > > Enphase don’t have one. > > This is on my old house. Still has a AEI-GC-1000. > The modules have got to come off as well as they are old mobil’s. > All just about dead. > > I’ve got a good deal on 72cell, 280 watt modules, so trying to find a > micro for that or maybe a small > And its only for 1500-2000 watts max. Thats all I can fit. > > thanks > jay > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Mon Oct 26 09:51:31 2015 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 09:51:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery backup to Enphase In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20151026135137.562D62E8057@homiemail-a51.g.dreamhost.com> Hello Dan, We are preparing to install a similar system. Enphase now allows AC coupling. We have specified the Radian. The batteries will be Concorde AGM, either 305 or 405 AH. Concorde AGMs are useful because they can take a very fast charge rate. With over 6 kW available to charge batteries, the charge rate would exceed C/5 for an L-16 battery, which the Concorde L-16 (405 AH) can easily handle with one string. The Concorde 305 AH can handle it also. The Radian 8048 can AC couple 6kW. The Radian GSLC175-AC-120/240 load center is set up for AC coupling. Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ At 06:32 PM 10/25/2015, you wrote: >Esteemed wrenches; >I have a new client who has convinced himself >the world as we know it will be ending in the >next few months. He has ~6kW of Enphase and >wants to add battery backup for critical >loads.....quite a few of them. I recommended he >buy some Kill-a-Watt units and start to monitor kWh usage. >My first thought was the new Enphase "AC Battery >system." Is this even available for purchase >yet, and if so has anyone here tried it? I'm >thinking ease if compatibility, tech support, warranty...... >Otherwise will likely AC couple a new >inverter. I was thinking an Outback Radian, >and lithium batteries (looking at Iron Edison) >as my prediction is they will be mostly sitting >idle for the next 10 years at least. Any >pitfalls, horror stories, and no-nos anyone is >willing to share? Crossed off NiFe; my house >runs on them and they are fairly >high-maintenance, as I predict this client will be. > >Dan Fink >Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute >IREC Certified Instructor™ for: >~ PV Installation Professional >~ Small Wind Installer >Executive Director, Buckville Energy >NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ >970.672.4342 > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Mon Oct 26 11:20:26 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 08:20:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery backup to Enphase In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3135BF11-A9CC-4C0C-95F0-936192B06218@starlightsolar.com> Hi Dan, I looked at the Ironedison website and it looks like they are offering the Balqon ESS LFP series as their Lithium Iron battery (https://ironedison.com/48-volt-lithium-battery-for-solar). If this is true, buyer beware…there are technical and delivery issues related to these Lithium batteries. If you do purchase these, let me know how it worked out for you. Larry On Oct 25, 2015, at 3:32 PM, Dan Fink wrote: Esteemed wrenches; I have a new client who has convinced himself the world as we know it will be ending in the next few months. He has ~6kW of Enphase and wants to add battery backup for critical loads.....quite a few of them. I recommended he buy some Kill-a-Watt units and start to monitor kWh usage. My first thought was the new Enphase "AC Battery system." Is this even available for purchase yet, and if so has anyone here tried it? I'm thinking ease if compatibility, tech support, warranty...... Otherwise will likely AC couple a new inverter. I was thinking an Outback Radian, and lithium batteries (looking at Iron Edison) as my prediction is they will be mostly sitting idle for the next 10 years at least. Any pitfalls, horror stories, and no-nos anyone is willing to share? Crossed off NiFe; my house runs on them and they are fairly high-maintenance, as I predict this client will be. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rebekah.hren at gmail.com Mon Oct 26 11:25:24 2015 From: rebekah.hren at gmail.com (Rebekah Hren) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 11:25:24 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery backup to Enphase In-Reply-To: <20151026135137.562D62E8057@homiemail-a51.g.dreamhost.com> References: <20151026135137.562D62E8057@homiemail-a51.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: >From my discussions with Enphase at Intersolar/SPI I do not believe their first gen battery will be capable of or designed for battery backup, it was designed for "energy management" as mentioned. Sounded like it would be another year at least before they staart selling it for battery backup systems. But...we will see. I also think the Outback GSLC175-AC-120/240 is a good choice for integration with Enphase. But since their ROCB is basically a blackout relay the system isn't likely to ever 3 stage charge lead acid batteries when the grid is down, so if this guy really thinks the grid is going down forever you might not want to mention that to him. This is much better design for grid-tied battery backup systems with lead acid which wouldn't be damaged just hitting bulk voltage and not going through absorb the few times a year the grid is likely to be down. Rebekah On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 9:51 AM, Drake wrote: > Hello Dan, > > We are preparing to install a similar system. Enphase now allows AC > coupling. We have specified the Radian. The batteries will be Concorde AGM, > either 305 or 405 AH. Concorde AGMs are useful because they can take a very > fast charge rate. With over 6 kW available to charge batteries, the charge > rate would exceed C/5 for an L-16 battery, which the Concorde L-16 (405 AH) > can easily handle with one string. The Concorde 305 AH can handle it also. > The Radian 8048 can AC couple 6kW. > > The Radian GSLC175-AC-120/240 load center is set up for AC coupling. > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > > > > > > *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified > Solar PV 740-448-7328 *http://athens-electric.com/ > > At 06:32 PM 10/25/2015, you wrote: > > Esteemed wrenches; > I have a new client who has convinced himself the world as we know it will > be ending in the next few months. He has ~6kW of Enphase and wants to add > battery backup for critical loads.....quite a few of them. I recommended he > buy some Kill-a-Watt units and start to monitor kWh usage. > My first thought was the new Enphase "AC Battery system." Is this even > available for purchase yet, and if so has anyone here tried it? I'm > thinking ease if compatibility, tech support, warranty...... > Otherwise will likely AC couple a new inverter. I was thinking an > Outback Radian, and lithium batteries (looking at Iron Edison) as my > prediction is they will be mostly sitting idle for the next 10 years at > least. Any pitfalls, horror stories, and no-nos anyone is willing to share? > Crossed off NiFe; my house runs on them and they are fairly > high-maintenance, as I predict this client will be. > > Dan Fink > Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > >  > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Tel: 336.266.8800 NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 NC Licensed Electrical Contractor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Mon Oct 26 10:24:46 2015 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 07:24:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 72 cell micro inverters References: <5724306A-EB9C-4B8F-9C56-119E19AE1F16@gmail.com><1995904703.2328918.1445788226961.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com><7DBBA275-2A1C-47DD-A7D4-EE7CF44ABBAD@gmail.com> Message-ID: <10FE5FEF113743479058AE0033153FB3@D8XG8YH1> Jay, One other consideration to mitigate morning/afternoon shading is to wire the array one string east side, one string west side and use an SMA TL with its 2 separate tracking inputs. This is assuming your shading is from east and west located obstacles...as the morning sun hits the west string, you'll have full output in that string, esp with opti-track. Same in afternoon. Not quite as granular as micros or optimizers but an option. Simple. You'll also have 1500 watts of power without batteries when the grid fails. Bill Feather River Solar Electric ----- Original Message ----- From: Kirpal Khalsa To: RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, October 26, 2015 4:32 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 72 cell micro inverters Jay you also might consider Solar Edge optimizers for partial shade mitigation. Same effect as micro inverters...easy to implememt. Kirpal Khalsa Oregon Solarworks On Oct 26, 2015 12:48 AM, "jay" wrote: Thanks all for the great info. I’ve got some pretty good morning afternoon shading so micros make better sense than the Galvo, but I”ll check that out. And I’ve got some really great pricing on some 72 cell 280 watt modules. Yea I’ve heard the ABB are a nightmare. I’ve got no experience or info on the APS. Anybody else have any besides Benn? Thanks all, jay On Oct 25, 2015, at 8:50 AM, Bill Hennessy wrote: We would NOT recommend the ABB micro 3.0 inverters because of the problems with their wireless interface and router incompatibility. The install of 48 Suntech 300w modules went well, but there were 30 hours involved in hooking up the communications interface. In the end, ABB tech support had us abandon the normal interface for a signal of over wire home-brew set up. Bill Hennessy Berks Solar, LLC 371 Centennial Rd Mertztown, PA 19539 o 610 682 4300 c 484 560 4666 NABCEP certified installer PA contractor #44411 www.berkssolar.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jay To: RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, October 23, 2015 12:03 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] 72 cell micro inverters HI All, What is the recommendation for 72 cell 280 watt 120/240v micro inverters? Enphase don’t have one. This is on my old house. Still has a AEI-GC-1000. The modules have got to come off as well as they are old mobil’s. All just about dead. I’ve got a good deal on 72cell, 280 watt modules, so trying to find a micro for that or maybe a small And its only for 1500-2000 watts max. Thats all I can fit. thanks jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Mon Oct 26 12:25:21 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 10:25:21 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Preppers - Fears sells perspective Message-ID: <007101d1100a$e99b9520$bcd2bf60$@com> Hey All (esp. you all newer to the solar field & not well versed in battery systems – ‘Been quietly sitting this last discussion out on equipment on battery backup & Peppers’. I know there are a lot of designer/installer getting into batteries for the first time and a lot of their experience is based in the grid intertie start in the solar field. I have the overall experience (since ’88) that managing the expectations of what a battery based system will and will not do. The obvious are electric stoves, heat, & water devices and let’s add electric cars to that list now too. That said, battery system design is completely another field from the grid tie market. Whether the Sh#$%^t hits the fan or not doing your job with integrity and thoroughness is critical. Life goes on and in a few years they are going to sitting there with a pile of equipment that if it was not correctly sized could affect your reputation which will still be on the line, and believe me you will hear from these folks. This ain’t the hook it up & walk away market, they will require more care that you are used to applying to a GT client. I have to stress that doing the numbers and a really accurate load evaluation, looking at short and long term expectations, & best case / worst case scenarios is a really safe place to start. If you cannot verify your design with good math and meet their requests do not go there. If they cannot afford their evaluation DONOT cheap it down, Walk away - Fear sells and some of these folks are running so deep in fear it is almost a comedy if it were not so sad. You need to look beyond the short term profit and look at your reputation down the road. Another item – These folks take a lot of your energy in all their “what if” scenarios. Have them list (in writing & keep this in their file) what is critical to them. They tend to change their minds as they peruse the internet & talk with the like minded crew. If they shift have them put their change in request in writing again. What you started out designing may turn 180° in a night. Get equipment paid for in advance period. Be careful with credit card purchases on big systems, I know of folks that are counting on the credit card system crashing and are racking up huge purchase counting on the crash. I had someone offer half price on a system in Gold bars as “it is going to more than triple” right, I am not going there personally. I have visited with folks now long gone that their parents were getting ready for the same end of society stuff 50-60 years ago & then there were the atomic fallout shelters, & then Y2K. I got offered an entire 18 wheeler of freeze dried food after Y2K. My body shudders to think what that would do to your digestive track. Been there & done that – I spent “88 to “95 of my solar career doing just this. It takes a lot out of you. Best to you all In joy & Keep on putting the sun to work. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Mon Oct 26 15:08:03 2015 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (Peter Giroux) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 14:08:03 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Preppers - Fears sells perspective References: <007101d1100a$e99b9520$bcd2bf60$@com> Message-ID: Dana Wow, could not have said it better. Preppers are notoriously cheap, think they know it all and can power their homes / lives with a few panels and batteries. peter ----- Original Message ----- From: Dana To: 'RE-wrenches' Sent: Monday, October 26, 2015 11:25 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Preppers - Fears sells perspective Hey All (esp. you all newer to the solar field & not well versed in battery systems - 'Been quietly sitting this last discussion out on equipment on battery backup & Peppers'. I know there are a lot of designer/installer getting into batteries for the first time and a lot of their experience is based in the grid intertie start in the solar field. I have the overall experience (since '88) that managing the expectations of what a battery based system will and will not do. The obvious are electric stoves, heat, & water devices and let's add electric cars to that list now too. That said, battery system design is completely another field from the grid tie market. Whether the Sh#$%^t hits the fan or not doing your job with integrity and thoroughness is critical. Life goes on and in a few years they are going to sitting there with a pile of equipment that if it was not correctly sized could affect your reputation which will still be on the line, and believe me you will hear from these folks. This ain't the hook it up & walk away market, they will require more care that you are used to applying to a GT client. I have to stress that doing the numbers and a really accurate load evaluation, looking at short and long term expectations, & best case / worst case scenarios is a really safe place to start. If you cannot verify your design with good math and meet their requests do not go there. If they cannot afford their evaluation DONOT cheap it down, Walk away - Fear sells and some of these folks are running so deep in fear it is almost a comedy if it were not so sad. You need to look beyond the short term profit and look at your reputation down the road. Another item - These folks take a lot of your energy in all their "what if" scenarios. Have them list (in writing & keep this in their file) what is critical to them. They tend to change their minds as they peruse the internet & talk with the like minded crew. If they shift have them put their change in request in writing again. What you started out designing may turn 180° in a night. Get equipment paid for in advance period. Be careful with credit card purchases on big systems, I know of folks that are counting on the credit card system crashing and are racking up huge purchase counting on the crash. I had someone offer half price on a system in Gold bars as "it is going to more than triple" right, I am not going there personally. I have visited with folks now long gone that their parents were getting ready for the same end of society stuff 50-60 years ago & then there were the atomic fallout shelters, & then Y2K. I got offered an entire 18 wheeler of freeze dried food after Y2K. My body shudders to think what that would do to your digestive track. Been there & done that - I spent "88 to "95 of my solar career doing just this. It takes a lot out of you. Best to you all In joy & Keep on putting the sun to work. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Mon Oct 26 13:39:03 2015 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 13:39:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery backup to Enphase In-Reply-To: References: <20151026135137.562D62E8057@homiemail-a51.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <20151026173908.016AE3DC06D@homiemail-a92.g.dreamhost.com> A possible option, that would lend complexity to the system, would be to use a relay driver to drop banks of micro inverters and end up with one or two charging when the battery voltage is at absorb. It wouldn't be perfect, but a significant improvement. At 11:25 AM 10/26/2015, you wrote: > From my discussions with Enphase at > Intersolar/SPI I do not believe their first gen > battery will be capable of or designed for > battery backup, it was designed for "energy > management" as mentioned. Sounded like it would > be another year at least before they staart > selling it for battery backup systems. But...we will see. > >I also think the Outback GSLC175-AC-120/240 is >a good choice for integration with Enphase. But >since their ROCB is basically a blackout relay >the system isn't likely to ever 3 stage charge >lead acid batteries when the grid is down, so if >this guy really thinks the grid is going down >forever you might not want to mention that to >him. This is much better design for grid-tied >battery backup systems with lead acid which >wouldn't be damaged  just hitting bulk voltage >and not going through absorb the few times a >year the grid is likely to be down. >Rebekah > > >On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 9:51 AM, Drake ><drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> >wrote: >Hello Dan, > >We are preparing to install a similar system. >Enphase now allows AC coupling. We have >specified the Radian. The batteries will be >Concorde AGM, either 305 or 405 AH. Concorde >AGMs are useful because they can take a very >fast charge rate. With over 6 kW available to >charge batteries, the charge rate would exceed >C/5 for an L-16 battery, which the Concorde L-16 >(405 AH) can easily handle with one string. The >Concorde 305 AH can handle it also. The Radian 8048 can AC couple 6kW. > >The Radian GSLC175-AC-120/240 load center is set up for AC coupling. > >Drake > >Drake Chamberlin >Athens Electric LLC >OH License 44810 >CO License 3773 >NABCEP Certified Solar PV >740-448-7328 >http://athens-electric.com/ > >At 06:32 PM 10/25/2015, you wrote: >>Esteemed wrenches; >>I have a new client who has convinced himself >>the world as we know it will be ending in the >>next few months. He has ~6kW of Enphase and >>wants to add battery backup for critical >>loads.....quite a few of them. I recommended he >>buy some Kill-a-Watt units and start to monitor kWh usage. >>My first thought was the new Enphase "AC >>Battery system." Is this even available for >>purchase yet, and if so has anyone here tried >>it? I'm thinking ease if compatibility, tech support, warranty...... >>Otherwise will likely AC couple a new >>inverter. I was thinking an Outback Radian, >>and lithium batteries (looking at Iron Edison) >>as my prediction is they will be mostly sitting >>idle for the next 10 years at least. Any >>pitfalls, horror stories, and no-nos anyone is >>willing to share? Crossed off NiFe; my house >>runs on them and they are fairly >>high-maintenance, as I predict this client will be. >> >>Dan Fink >>Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute >>IREC Certified Instructor™ for: >>~ PV Installation Professional >>~ Small Wind Installer >>Executive Director, Buckville Energy >>NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ >>970.672.4342 >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >>List Address: >>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >>Change listserver email address & settings: >>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >>List-Archive: >>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >>List rules & etiquette: >>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >>Check out or update participant bios: >>www.members.re-wrenches.org > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > >-- >Tel: 336.266.8800 >NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 >NC Licensed Eleectrical Contractor >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Mon Oct 26 14:51:00 2015 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 08:51:00 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Burndy part Message-ID: <003401d1101f$4300ede0$c902c9a0$@com> Hola amigos y amigas. I'm looking for a hard to find Burndy lug (EA34). Burndy calls it their Versilug. I need three of 'em, please. If anyone happens to have three or two or even one and is willing to sell, please contact me off-list. Mahalo, marco -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Oct 26 14:35:45 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 11:35:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 72 cell micro inverters In-Reply-To: <10FE5FEF113743479058AE0033153FB3@D8XG8YH1> References: <5724306A-EB9C-4B8F-9C56-119E19AE1F16@gmail.com> <1995904703.2328918.1445788226961.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <7DBBA275-2A1C-47DD-A7D4-EE7CF44ABBAD@gmail.com> <10FE5FEF113743479058AE0033153FB3@D8XG8YH1> Message-ID: <7382D293-7D3C-4368-83DD-21FF93BCEBF6@gmail.com> This and the Solar Edge are interesting options. This system is really small, probably just 6 modules, so the Solar edge won’t work as it needs 8 minimum. The larger TL inverter starts to get expensive, and with any shading I”m going to get outside the min voltage window pretty quickly. The APS micros, are a good price point, do two module with one inverter ( and hopefully two MPPT but I don’t know about that). And even with the optional data interface, its still less expensive than the Galvo 1.5. As backround, when I installed it, the GC-1000 ( 48vdc input) might have been the only inverter. Or around the same time was maybe the trace, and a bit later the SB2500 came out. thanks jay > On Oct 26, 2015, at 7:24 AM, frenergy wrote: > > Jay, > > One other consideration to mitigate morning/afternoon shading is to wire the array one string east side, one string west side and use an SMA TL with its 2 separate tracking inputs. This is assuming your shading is from east and west located obstacles...as the morning sun hits the west string, you'll have full output in that string, esp with opti-track. Same in afternoon. Not quite as granular as micros or optimizers but an option. Simple. You'll also have 1500 watts of power without batteries when the grid fails. > > Bill > Feather River Solar Electric >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Kirpal Khalsa >> To: RE-wrenches >> Sent: Monday, October 26, 2015 4:32 AM >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 72 cell micro inverters >> >> Jay you also might consider Solar Edge optimizers for partial shade mitigation. Same effect as micro inverters...easy to implememt. >> Kirpal Khalsa >> Oregon Solarworks >> On Oct 26, 2015 12:48 AM, "jay" > wrote: >>> Thanks all for the great info. >>> >>> I’ve got some pretty good morning afternoon shading so micros make better sense than the Galvo, but I”ll check that out. >>> And I’ve got some really great pricing on some 72 cell 280 watt modules. >>> >>> Yea I’ve heard the ABB are a nightmare. >>> I’ve got no experience or info on the APS. Anybody else have any besides Benn? >>> >>> Thanks all, >>> >>> jay >>> >>> >>>> On Oct 25, 2015, at 8:50 AM, Bill Hennessy > wrote: >>>> >>>> We would NOT recommend the ABB micro 3.0 inverters because of the problems with their wireless interface and router incompatibility. >>>> The install of 48 Suntech 300w modules went well, but there were 30 hours involved in hooking up the communications interface. >>>> In the end, ABB tech support had us abandon the normal interface for a signal of over wire home-brew set up. >>>> >>>> Bill Hennessy >>>> Berks Solar, LLC >>>> 371 Centennial Rd >>>> Mertztown, PA 19539 >>>> >>>> o 610 682 4300 >>>> c 484 560 4666 >>>> NABCEP certified installer >>>> PA contractor #44411 >>>> www.berkssolar.com >>>> From: jay > >>>> To: RE-wrenches > >>>> Sent: Friday, October 23, 2015 12:03 PM >>>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] 72 cell micro inverters >>>> >>>> HI All, >>>> >>>> What is the recommendation for 72 cell 280 watt 120/240v micro inverters? >>>> >>>> Enphase don’t have one. >>>> >>>> This is on my old house. Still has a AEI-GC-1000. >>>> The modules have got to come off as well as they are old mobil’s. >>>> All just about dead. >>>> >>>> I’ve got a good deal on 72cell, 280 watt modules, so trying to find a micro for that or maybe a small >>>> And its only for 1500-2000 watts max. Thats all I can fit. >>>> >>>> thanks >>>> jay >>>> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarwindworks.com Mon Oct 26 14:53:48 2015 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 11:53:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery backup to Enphase In-Reply-To: <20151026173908.016AE3DC06D@homiemail-a92.g.dreamhost.com> References: <20151026135137.562D62E8057@homiemail-a51.g.dreamhost.com> <20151026173908.016AE3DC06D@homiemail-a92.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <024d01d1101f$a77888a0$f66999e0$@solarwindworks.com> Hi all, We are scheduling our next Enphase system now using the new Envoy-S and S280 micro’s. Reminds me of the Tesla S for some reason, like the data sheets on the Envoy-S “ Envoy-S is the platform for total energy management and integrates with the Enphase AC Battery.” The Enphase S280 also eludes to this “The S280 is compatible with storage systems, including battery management systems. Our primary reason for the S280 is more output with 310 watt LG NeON2 modules, not the potential with the battery interface, although this didn’t go unnoticed! We didn’t attend the shows, and now you have me wondering what is around the corner, as our client is also wanting to head into a battery based system one day. Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP Certified PV Installer Office 530-582-4503 Cell 530-448-9692 Fax 530-582-4603 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Monday, October 26, 2015 10:39 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery backup to Enphase A possible option, that would lend complexity to the system, would be to use a relay driver to drop banks of micro inverters and end up with one or two charging when the battery voltage is at absorb. It wouldn't be perfect, but a significant improvement. At 11:25 AM 10/26/2015, you wrote: >From my discussions with Enphase at Intersolar/SPI I do not believe their first gen battery will be capable of or designed for battery backup, it was designed for "energy management" as mentioned. Sounded like it would be another year at least before they staart selling it for battery backup systems. But...we will see. I also think the Outback GSLC175-AC-120/240 is a good choice for integration with Enphase. But since their ROCB is basically a blackout relay the system isn't likely to ever 3 stage charge lead acid batteries when the grid is down, so if this guy really thinks the grid is going down forever you might not want to mention that to him. This is much better design for grid-tied battery backup systems with lead acid which wouldn't be damaged  just hitting bulk voltage and not going through absorb the few times a year the grid is likely to be down. Rebekah On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 9:51 AM, Drake < drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org > wrote: Hello Dan, We are preparing to install a similar system. Enphase now allows AC coupling. We have specified the Radian. The batteries will be Concorde AGM, either 305 or 405 AH. Concorde AGMs are useful because they can take a very fast charge rate. With over 6 kW available to charge batteries, the charge rate would exceed C/5 for an L-16 battery, which the Concorde L-16 (405 AH) can easily handle with one string. The Concorde 305 AH can handle it also. The Radian 8048 can AC couple 6kW. The Radian GSLC175-AC-120/240 load center is set up for AC coupling. Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ At 06:32 PM 10/25/2015, you wrote: Esteemed wrenches; I have a new client who has convinced himself the world as we know it will be ending in the next few months. He has ~6kW of Enphase and wants to add battery backup for critical loads.....quite a few of them. I recommended he buy some Kill-a-Watt units and start to monitor kWh usage. My first thought was the new Enphase "AC Battery system." Is this even available for purchase yet, and if so has anyone here tried it? I'm thinking ease if compatibility, tech support, warranty...... Otherwise will likely AC couple a new inverter. I was thinking an Outback Radian, and lithium batteries (looking at Iron Edison) as my prediction is they will be mostly sitting idle for the next 10 years at least. Any pitfalls, horror stories, and no-nos anyone is willing to share? Crossed off NiFe; my house runs on them and they are fairly high-maintenance, as I predict this client will be. Dan Fink Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342  _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Tel: 336.266.8800 NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 NC Licensed Eleectrical Contractor _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tom at wagonmaker.com Mon Oct 26 16:03:19 2015 From: tom at wagonmaker.com (tom at wagonmaker.com) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 13:03:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Preppers - Fears sells perspective In-Reply-To: <007101d1100a$e99b9520$bcd2bf60$@com> References: <007101d1100a$e99b9520$bcd2bf60$@com> Message-ID: While I agree with the general sentiment I must say that as an old battery based system user and designer that battery systems are not solely installed by preppers/endtimers. There are plenty of people for whom a battery system is the only option and it has nothing at all to do with fear of the world ending. I would hate to see the idea of battery based systems being tied to that nonsense. Yes, they are out there and have always been out there but I'd hope that we can keep their influence on the market in context. Let's not let "battery based" become a synonym for "endtimer". I'd also add that along with all your good caveats about the prep time that education about basic energy terms, how electricity is used in a home and an understanding of how to manage such systems is crucial. I spent probably 60% of my time with battery customers on education, and that can't come free either but I would suggest that it be part of the package price that is clearly stated and emphasized as critical. Tom On 2015-10-26 09:25, Dana wrote: > Hey All (esp. you all newer to the solar field & not well versed in > battery  systems - > > 'Been quietly sitting this last discussion out on equipment on > battery backup & Peppers'. > > I know there are a lot of designer/installer getting into batteries > for the first time and a lot of their experience is based in the grid > intertie start in the solar field. > > I have the overall experience (since '88) that managing the > expectations of what a battery based system will and will not do. The > obvious are electric stoves, heat, & water devices and let's add > electric cars to that list now too. That said, battery system design > is completely another field from the grid tie market. > > Whether the Sh#$%^t hits the fan or not doing your job with integrity > and thoroughness is critical. Life goes on and in a few years they are > going to sitting there with a pile of equipment that if it was not > correctly sized could affect your reputation which will still be on > the line, and believe me you will hear from these folks. This ain't > the hook it up & walk away market, they will require more care that > you are used to applying to a GT client. > > I have to stress that doing the numbers and a really accurate load > evaluation, looking at short and long term expectations, & best case / > worst case scenarios is a really safe place to start. If you cannot > verify your design with good math and meet their requests do not go > there. If they cannot afford their evaluation DONOT cheap it down, > Walk away - Fear sells and some of these folks are running so deep in > fear it is almost a comedy if it were not so sad. You need to look > beyond the short term profit and look at your reputation down the > road. > > Another item - These folks take a lot of your energy in all their > "what if" scenarios. Have them list (in writing & keep this in their > file) what is critical to them. They tend to change their minds as > they peruse the internet & talk with the like minded crew. If they > shift have them put their change in request in writing again. What you > started out designing may turn 180° in a night. Get equipment paid for > in advance period. Be careful with credit card purchases on big > systems, I know of folks that are counting on the credit card system > crashing and are racking up huge purchase counting on the crash. I had > someone offer half price on a system in Gold bars as "it is going to > more than triple" right, I am not going there personally. > > I have visited with folks now long gone that their parents were > getting ready for the same end of society stuff 50-60 years ago & then > there were the atomic fallout shelters, & then Y2K. I got offered an > entire 18 wheeler of freeze dried food after Y2K. My body shudders to > think what that would do to your digestive track. > > Been there & done that - I spent "88 to "95 of my solar career doing > just this. It takes a lot out of you. > > Best to you all In joy & Keep on putting the sun to work. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel > > Great Solar Works, Inc -  NABCEP # 051112-136 > > E - dana at solarwork.com  - Web - solarwork.com > > O - 970.626.5253  C - 208.721.7003 > > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  > > P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Oct 26 18:15:53 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 15:15:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider XW repair out of warranty In-Reply-To: <024d01d1101f$a77888a0$f66999e0$@solarwindworks.com> References: <20151026135137.562D62E8057@homiemail-a51.g.dreamhost.com> <20151026173908.016AE3DC06D@homiemail-a92.g.dreamhost.com> <024d01d1101f$a77888a0$f66999e0$@solarwindworks.com> Message-ID: <34BC9D57-017E-4188-8DD3-95FB56181A15@gmail.com> Hi All, any Schneider XW repair locations on the west coast that folks can recommend? This is for a somewhat older XW, 24v, which is out of warranty. thanks jay peltz power From daniel at greenwired.com Mon Oct 26 21:30:22 2015 From: daniel at greenwired.com (Daniel Tittmann) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 18:30:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Classic 150 100 amp utput breaker tripping????? Message-ID: Hive mind- hoping you all can help me solve this mystery issue. System: Magnum double panel with Parallel stacked 2x4448 pae inverters. Classic 150 charge controller wired with an NMEPV 50 (din rail) and NMEPV100 18 - 245 watt solar modules (6x3). (not over powered) Issue: every morning the 100 amp din rail breaker is tripping. from what I can gather simultaneously the magnum RTR shows the AGS go into error. Re set the breaker and the solar works fine for the rest of the day. Not 100% sure the AGS has worked (under normal operation) at all other than at commissioning and recent testing. Of course on site i cant get it to fail. Tested the AGS by setting start voltage to 48.2 vdc and put the system under load....... voltage drops and generator turned on with no pv-> Batt breaker issue. last visit, chasing one theory, I re routed the battery + from the mnpv100 directly to the battery + terminal as opposed to the battery + bus bar in the inverter panel still didn't solve the problem. I cant figure out if it the classic causing the issue or if it is the inverters and the AGS. Any input would be appreciated. Thanks Daniel Daniel Tittmann CTO Greenwired www.greenwired.com daniel at greenwired.com 707-923-2001 (office) 707-206-5088 (Cell) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From boB at midnitesolar.com Tue Oct 27 00:18:59 2015 From: boB at midnitesolar.com (boB at midnitesolar.com) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 21:18:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Classic 150 100 amp utput breaker tripping????? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <562EFB33.40507@midnitesolar.com> Daniel... This one is kind of unusual... Especially tripping only in the morning. Temperature ? Something moving or shaking the breaker box ? Have you tried changing the circuit breaker ? What is the approximate maximum current output from the Classic in the morning ? You can access recent power info before the trip in the LOGS menu or the main status menu by hitting the STATUS button a few times... Four hits I think, until you see the graph of power vs. time show up. There are other items logged and can be seen by pressing the UP button. Logging is done around every 5 or 10 minutes and the most recent log will be on the right side of the graph. To move the cursor to the right to get this value, press the RIGHT arrow key. LEFT key moves it backward in time and right to more recent time. If the MNGP (display) time and date is set correctly, the logs should present the actual logging time correctly. The daily logs won't save the maximum power data because the Classic will reset before that info is saved when the breaker tripped. That usually happens at midnight. I know you don't usually get the nameplate rating out of an array but 18*245W adds up to 4400 watts or so and would be around 90+ amps at 48V if it should ever put out that much power. This list is going to have some great ideas but if we can also help, give us a ring at 360-403-7207. OR, at any time day or night, you can start a support ticket that immediately gets sent to all of the support people by going to... http://www.midnitesolar.com/help The ticket method is kinda cool because it gets people thinking about the problem as soon as they see it. boB Gudgel On 10/26/2015 6:30 PM, Daniel Tittmann wrote: > Hive mind- > hoping you all can help me solve this mystery issue. > > System: > Magnum double panel with Parallel stacked 2x4448 pae inverters. > Classic 150 charge controller wired with an NMEPV 50 (din rail) and > NMEPV100 > 18 - 245 watt solar modules (6x3). (not over powered) > > Issue: > every morning the 100 amp din rail breaker is tripping. from what I > can gather simultaneously the magnum RTR shows the AGS go into error. > Re set the breaker and the solar works fine for the rest of the day. > > Not 100% sure the AGS has worked (under normal operation) at all other > than at commissioning and recent testing. > > Of course on site i cant get it to fail. > > Tested the AGS by setting start voltage to 48.2 vdc and put the system > under load....... voltage drops and generator turned on with no pv-> > Batt breaker issue. > > last visit, chasing one theory, I re routed the battery + from the > mnpv100 directly to the battery + terminal as opposed to the battery > + bus bar in the inverter panel still didn't solve the problem. > > I cant figure out if it the classic causing the issue or if it is the > inverters and the AGS. > > Any input would be appreciated. > Thanks > Daniel > > Daniel Tittmann > CTO > Greenwired > www.greenwired.com > daniel at greenwired.com > 707-923-2001 (office) > 707-206-5088 (Cell) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Oct 26 22:02:50 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 19:02:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Classic 150 100 amp utput breaker tripping????? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5BE4D2BD-0AA0-4551-9468-48799F6E21B2@gmail.com> Hi Daniel Is this a new classic with OCP? Or maybe they don't have it anymore? What it sure sounds like like is a big load on the batteries, it hits faster than the AGS can start, and the caps in the classic are dumping into the super low battery voltage. If this is happening in the AM, guessing with enough light to get the CC alive If there is a trimetric, you can measure the lowest voltage which should give you some good info. Super low volts might mean a bad battery or too big a load or both. But I don't believe it's the other way around that the classic is causing any issues with the AGS/inverter You could always try another CC and see what happens Jay Peltz power > On Oct 26, 2015, at 6:30 PM, Daniel Tittmann wrote: > > Hive mind- > hoping you all can help me solve this mystery issue. > > System: > Magnum double panel with Parallel stacked 2x4448 pae inverters. > Classic 150 charge controller wired with an NMEPV 50 (din rail) and NMEPV100 > 18 - 245 watt solar modules (6x3). (not over powered) > > Issue: > every morning the 100 amp din rail breaker is tripping. from what I can gather simultaneously the magnum RTR shows the AGS go into error. Re set the breaker and the solar works fine for the rest of the day. > > Not 100% sure the AGS has worked (under normal operation) at all other than at commissioning and recent testing. > > Of course on site i cant get it to fail. > > Tested the AGS by setting start voltage to 48.2 vdc and put the system under load....... voltage drops and generator turned on with no pv-> Batt breaker issue. > > last visit, chasing one theory, I re routed the battery + from the mnpv100 directly to the battery + terminal as opposed to the battery + bus bar in the inverter panel still didn't solve the problem. > > I cant figure out if it the classic causing the issue or if it is the inverters and the AGS. > > Any input would be appreciated. > Thanks > Daniel > > Daniel Tittmann > CTO > Greenwired > www.greenwired.com > daniel at greenwired.com > 707-923-2001 (office) > 707-206-5088 (Cell) > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue Oct 27 01:25:58 2015 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 23:25:58 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Classic 150 100 amp utput breaker tripping????? In-Reply-To: <5BE4D2BD-0AA0-4551-9468-48799F6E21B2@gmail.com> References: <5BE4D2BD-0AA0-4551-9468-48799F6E21B2@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Daniel, Do you know what the error is on the AGS? What are the start set points that you have? Jay could be on to something if the battery voltage is collapsing before the generator can start, the cc current could be high. Do you know specifically what time of day the breaker is tripping? I'd check the Midnite logs and consider starting the generator sooner. Is there large voltage swings (this could indicate bad battery or large load)? Make sure the wire is cleaned and torqued properly onto that breaker. How big is the battery bank and what is the tilt and azimuth of the panels? On Oct 26, 2015 11:05 PM, "Jay" wrote: > Hi Daniel > > Is this a new classic with OCP? Or maybe they don't have it anymore? > > What it sure sounds like like is a big load on the batteries, it hits > faster than the AGS can start, and the caps in the classic are dumping into > the super low battery voltage. If this is happening in the AM, guessing > with enough light to get the CC alive > > If there is a trimetric, you can measure the lowest voltage which should > give you some good info. Super low volts might mean a bad battery or too > big a load or both. > > But I don't believe it's the other way around that the classic is causing > any issues with the AGS/inverter > > You could always try another CC and see what happens > > Jay > > Peltz power > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 26, 2015, at 6:30 PM, Daniel Tittmann > wrote: > > Hive mind- > hoping you all can help me solve this mystery issue. > > System: > Magnum double panel with Parallel stacked 2x4448 pae inverters. > Classic 150 charge controller wired with an NMEPV 50 (din rail) and > NMEPV100 > 18 - 245 watt solar modules (6x3). (not over powered) > > Issue: > every morning the 100 amp din rail breaker is tripping. from what I can > gather simultaneously the magnum RTR shows the AGS go into error. Re set > the breaker and the solar works fine for the rest of the day. > > Not 100% sure the AGS has worked (under normal operation) at all other > than at commissioning and recent testing. > > Of course on site i cant get it to fail. > > Tested the AGS by setting start voltage to 48.2 vdc and put the system > under load....... voltage drops and generator turned on with no pv-> Batt > breaker issue. > > last visit, chasing one theory, I re routed the battery + from the mnpv100 > directly to the battery + terminal as opposed to the battery + bus bar in > the inverter panel still didn't solve the problem. > > I cant figure out if it the classic causing the issue or if it is the > inverters and the AGS. > > Any input would be appreciated. > Thanks > Daniel > > Daniel Tittmann > CTO > Greenwired > www.greenwired.com > daniel at greenwired.com > 707-923-2001 (office) > 707-206-5088 (Cell) > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Tue Oct 27 09:48:11 2015 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (Chris Daum) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 07:48:11 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider XW repair out of warranty In-Reply-To: <34BC9D57-017E-4188-8DD3-95FB56181A15@gmail.com> Message-ID: Abney Solar in Redmond, OR, 541-923-6000. If it can be fixed they can likely fix it. --Chris @ the Oasis Montana Inc. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay Sent: Monday, October 26, 2015 4:16 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider XW repair out of warranty Hi All, any Schneider XW repair locations on the west coast that folks can recommend? This is for a somewhat older XW, 24v, which is out of warranty. thanks jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Tue Oct 27 10:52:49 2015 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Shasta Daiku) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 07:52:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider XW repair out of warranty In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <757A31BC-9D88-4F97-B902-5AE5580F80EF@gmail.com> I’ll second that. > On Oct 27, 2015, at 6:48 AM, Chris Daum wrote: > > Abney Solar in Redmond, OR, 541-923-6000. If it can be fixed they can > likely fix it. > > --Chris @ the Oasis Montana Inc. > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of jay > Sent: Monday, October 26, 2015 4:16 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider XW repair out of warranty > > Hi All, > > any Schneider XW repair locations on the west coast that folks can > recommend? > > This is for a somewhat older XW, 24v, which is out of warranty. > > thanks > > jay > > peltz power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Tue Oct 27 19:36:32 2015 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 19:36:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Morningstar 600v controller with transfer switch. Message-ID: Hi wrenches, I think I have the perfect application for a high voltage controller with transfer switch. My customer currently has a VFX3524 with 8 L16s strictly as a backup to his critical loads panel with the grid as the AC input. It is not a grid tie version as he wanted to be able to use a small generator Honda 2000 to recharge in a long outage. When we installed this in 2006, I suggested he add a few PV panels to make it SOLAR so he could take the tax credit on the whole thing. The tax credit paid for the panels plus more. Now 9 years later and very happy with his 220 watt system, we are adding 6840 watts of PV on 3 top of pole racks 200 feet from his house. This direct grid tie system with a Fronius 6k inverter will take care of his electric bill but will not help in an outage. The Morningstar 600 v controller with transfer switch would give him the whole new array for backup. The specs say the controller limits the incoming current so there seems to be no problem with the large array size. Have any of you used this controller in this application? I want to make sure this will work before I talk him into spending another $1700 plus installation costs. John Blittersdorf Central Vermont Solar & Wind LLC 104 River Street Rutland, VT 05701 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daniel at greenwired.com Wed Oct 28 18:04:32 2015 From: daniel at greenwired.com (Daniel Tittmann) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 15:04:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Classic 150 100 amp utput breaker tripping????? In-Reply-To: References: <5BE4D2BD-0AA0-4551-9468-48799F6E21B2@gmail.com> Message-ID: An update on this issue: On my initial visit to diagnose this problem I changed the AGS settings higher volt start and % state of charge start. The report from the client is that this has fixed the AGS issue. So now I am just dealing with the 100 amp breaker tripping. The trip time from the client is when the sun hits the panels and once reset for the day it will not trip until the next morning. What could cause this? You are all right that the first step it changing out that breaker that will be the first on the list when I am back on site. I hope that is the only issue because as usual this system is 2 Hrs from the shop with no cell or internet coverage. Thanks for your input. Cheers- Daniel Daniel Tittmann CTO Greenwired www.greenwired.com daniel at greenwired.com 707-923-2001 (office) 707-206-5088 (Cell) On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 10:25 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi Daniel, > > Do you know what the error is on the AGS? What are the start set points > that you have? Jay could be on to something if the battery voltage is > collapsing before the generator can start, the cc current could be high. Do > you know specifically what time of day the breaker is tripping? > > I'd check the Midnite logs and consider starting the generator sooner. Is > there large voltage swings (this could indicate bad battery or large load)? > Make sure the wire is cleaned and torqued properly onto that breaker. > > How big is the battery bank and what is the tilt and azimuth of the panels? > On Oct 26, 2015 11:05 PM, "Jay" wrote: > >> Hi Daniel >> >> Is this a new classic with OCP? Or maybe they don't have it anymore? >> >> What it sure sounds like like is a big load on the batteries, it hits >> faster than the AGS can start, and the caps in the classic are dumping into >> the super low battery voltage. If this is happening in the AM, guessing >> with enough light to get the CC alive >> >> If there is a trimetric, you can measure the lowest voltage which should >> give you some good info. Super low volts might mean a bad battery or too >> big a load or both. >> >> But I don't believe it's the other way around that the classic is causing >> any issues with the AGS/inverter >> >> You could always try another CC and see what happens >> >> Jay >> >> Peltz power >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Oct 26, 2015, at 6:30 PM, Daniel Tittmann >> wrote: >> >> Hive mind- >> hoping you all can help me solve this mystery issue. >> >> System: >> Magnum double panel with Parallel stacked 2x4448 pae inverters. >> Classic 150 charge controller wired with an NMEPV 50 (din rail) and >> NMEPV100 >> 18 - 245 watt solar modules (6x3). (not over powered) >> >> Issue: >> every morning the 100 amp din rail breaker is tripping. from what I can >> gather simultaneously the magnum RTR shows the AGS go into error. Re set >> the breaker and the solar works fine for the rest of the day. >> >> Not 100% sure the AGS has worked (under normal operation) at all other >> than at commissioning and recent testing. >> >> Of course on site i cant get it to fail. >> >> Tested the AGS by setting start voltage to 48.2 vdc and put the system >> under load....... voltage drops and generator turned on with no pv-> Batt >> breaker issue. >> >> last visit, chasing one theory, I re routed the battery + from the >> mnpv100 directly to the battery + terminal as opposed to the battery + bus >> bar in the inverter panel still didn't solve the problem. >> >> I cant figure out if it the classic causing the issue or if it is the >> inverters and the AGS. >> >> Any input would be appreciated. >> Thanks >> Daniel >> >> Daniel Tittmann >> CTO >> Greenwired >> www.greenwired.com >> daniel at greenwired.com >> 707-923-2001 (office) >> 707-206-5088 (Cell) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Wed Oct 28 18:45:40 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 15:45:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Classic 150 100 amp utput breaker tripping????? In-Reply-To: References: <5BE4D2BD-0AA0-4551-9468-48799F6E21B2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2814382D-DD58-42F1-A917-4436117C1173@starlightsolar.com> Bizarre, Daniel. I can not imagine that the breaker will open with the tiny PV current available at first light then handles full current all day without a problem. Wild guess here... could it be the Classic transition from open circuit voltage to operation is creating a momentary short that trips the breaker? To be sure, put a new 100A breaker in and wait for sunup. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Oct 28, 2015, at 3:04 PM, Daniel Tittmann wrote: An update on this issue: On my initial visit to diagnose this problem I changed the AGS settings higher volt start and % state of charge start. The report from the client is that this has fixed the AGS issue. So now I am just dealing with the 100 amp breaker tripping. The trip time from the client is when the sun hits the panels and once reset for the day it will not trip until the next morning. What could cause this? You are all right that the first step it changing out that breaker that will be the first on the list when I am back on site. I hope that is the only issue because as usual this system is 2 Hrs from the shop with no cell or internet coverage. Thanks for your input. Cheers- Daniel Daniel Tittmann CTO Greenwired www.greenwired.com daniel at greenwired.com 707-923-2001 (office) 707-206-5088 (Cell) On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 10:25 PM, Mac Lewis > wrote: Hi Daniel, Do you know what the error is on the AGS? What are the start set points that you have? Jay could be on to something if the battery voltage is collapsing before the generator can start, the cc current could be high. Do you know specifically what time of day the breaker is tripping? I'd check the Midnite logs and consider starting the generator sooner. Is there large voltage swings (this could indicate bad battery or large load)? Make sure the wire is cleaned and torqued properly onto that breaker. How big is the battery bank and what is the tilt and azimuth of the panels? On Oct 26, 2015 11:05 PM, "Jay" > wrote: Hi Daniel Is this a new classic with OCP? Or maybe they don't have it anymore? What it sure sounds like like is a big load on the batteries, it hits faster than the AGS can start, and the caps in the classic are dumping into the super low battery voltage. If this is happening in the AM, guessing with enough light to get the CC alive If there is a trimetric, you can measure the lowest voltage which should give you some good info. Super low volts might mean a bad battery or too big a load or both. But I don't believe it's the other way around that the classic is causing any issues with the AGS/inverter You could always try another CC and see what happens Jay Peltz power On Oct 26, 2015, at 6:30 PM, Daniel Tittmann > wrote: > Hive mind- > hoping you all can help me solve this mystery issue. > > System: > Magnum double panel with Parallel stacked 2x4448 pae inverters. > Classic 150 charge controller wired with an NMEPV 50 (din rail) and NMEPV100 > 18 - 245 watt solar modules (6x3). (not over powered) > > Issue: > every morning the 100 amp din rail breaker is tripping. from what I can gather simultaneously the magnum RTR shows the AGS go into error. Re set the breaker and the solar works fine for the rest of the day. > > Not 100% sure the AGS has worked (under normal operation) at all other than at commissioning and recent testing. > > Of course on site i cant get it to fail. > > Tested the AGS by setting start voltage to 48.2 vdc and put the system under load....... voltage drops and generator turned on with no pv-> Batt breaker issue. > > last visit, chasing one theory, I re routed the battery + from the mnpv100 directly to the battery + terminal as opposed to the battery + bus bar in the inverter panel still didn't solve the problem. > > I cant figure out if it the classic causing the issue or if it is the inverters and the AGS. > > Any input would be appreciated. > Thanks > Daniel > > Daniel Tittmann > CTO > Greenwired > www.greenwired.com > daniel at greenwired.com > 707-923-2001 (office) > 707-206-5088 (Cell) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com Thu Oct 29 12:55:01 2015 From: bteitelbaum at aeesolar.com (Brian Teitelbaum) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 09:55:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Classic 150 100 amp output breaker tripping????? Message-ID: Daniel, Very strange problem. While I agree that you should try replacing the 100A breaker, I doubt that it’s the problem. Why would a breaker trip at low amperage in the morning, but not trip at noon when the amperage is higher? At early morning turn-on, the voltage might be too high, but high voltage is not going to trip a breaker. Current trips a breaker, not voltage. My guess is that something is going on inside the Classic controller. Larry’s “wild guess” might be on the mark. Do you have another Classic to swap out with? Brian Teitelbaum AEE Solar *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Daniel Tittmann *Sent:* Wednesday, October 28, 2015 3:05 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Classic 150 100 amp utput breaker tripping????? An update on this issue: On my initial visit to diagnose this problem I changed the AGS settings higher volt start and % state of charge start. The report from the client is that this has fixed the AGS issue. So now I am just dealing with the 100 amp breaker tripping. The trip time from the client is when the sun hits the panels and once reset for the day it will not trip until the next morning. What could cause this? You are all right that the first step it changing out that breaker that will be the first on the list when I am back on site. I hope that is the only issue because as usual this system is 2 Hrs from the shop with no cell or internet coverage. Thanks for your input. Cheers- Daniel Daniel Tittmann CTO Greenwired www.greenwired.com daniel at greenwired.com 707-923-2001 (office) 707-206-5088 (Cell) On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 10:25 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: Hi Daniel, Do you know what the error is on the AGS? What are the start set points that you have? Jay could be on to something if the battery voltage is collapsing before the generator can start, the cc current could be high. Do you know specifically what time of day the breaker is tripping? I'd check the Midnite logs and consider starting the generator sooner. Is there large voltage swings (this could indicate bad battery or large load)? Make sure the wire is cleaned and torqued properly onto that breaker. How big is the battery bank and what is the tilt and azimuth of the panels? On Oct 26, 2015 11:05 PM, "Jay" wrote: Hi Daniel Is this a new classic with OCP? Or maybe they don't have it anymore? What it sure sounds like like is a big load on the batteries, it hits faster than the AGS can start, and the caps in the classic are dumping into the super low battery voltage. If this is happening in the AM, guessing with enough light to get the CC alive If there is a trimetric, you can measure the lowest voltage which should give you some good info. Super low volts might mean a bad battery or too big a load or both. But I don't believe it's the other way around that the classic is causing any issues with the AGS/inverter You could always try another CC and see what happens Jay Peltz power On Oct 26, 2015, at 6:30 PM, Daniel Tittmann wrote: Hive mind- hoping you all can help me solve this mystery issue. System: Magnum double panel with Parallel stacked 2x4448 pae inverters. Classic 150 charge controller wired with an NMEPV 50 (din rail) and NMEPV100 18 - 245 watt solar modules (6x3). (not over powered) Issue: every morning the 100 amp din rail breaker is tripping. from what I can gather simultaneously the magnum RTR shows the AGS go into error. Re set the breaker and the solar works fine for the rest of the day. Not 100% sure the AGS has worked (under normal operation) at all other than at commissioning and recent testing. Of course on site i cant get it to fail. Tested the AGS by setting start voltage to 48.2 vdc and put the system under load....... voltage drops and generator turned on with no pv-> Batt breaker issue. last visit, chasing one theory, I re routed the battery + from the mnpv100 directly to the battery + terminal as opposed to the battery + bus bar in the inverter panel still didn't solve the problem. I cant figure out if it the classic causing the issue or if it is the inverters and the AGS. Any input would be appreciated. Thanks Daniel Daniel Tittmann CTO Greenwired www.greenwired.com daniel at greenwired.com 707-923-2001 (office) 707-206-5088 (Cell) _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From boB at midnitesolar.com Thu Oct 29 14:13:08 2015 From: boB at midnitesolar.com (boB at midnitesolar.com) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 11:13:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Classic 150 100 amp output breaker tripping????? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <563261B4.3070908@midnitesolar.com> You don't want to drive for hours and hours to do something that might=20 not fix the problem. Without knowing exactly what is happening, I would bring a spare Classic=20 and also a new breaker which I think I heard we were sending you.... If the Classic is plugged into the internet, there is the possibility of=20 monitoring it to see what is going on just before the breaker trips. I would just bring another one=20 in this case if you have one... Otherwise, call our support and see if there is something they can do to=20 help in this regard. Strange things do happen in this industry ! Troubleshooting isn't so=20 bad as long as you don't have drive or take a helicopter a long ways just to find that the unit is=20 turned off. boB On 10/29/2015 9:55 AM, Brian Teitelbaum wrote: > > Daniel, > > Very strange problem. > > While I agree that you should try replacing the 100A breaker, I doubt=20 > that it=E2=80=99s the problem. Why would a breaker trip at low amperage i= n the=20 > morning, but not trip at noon when the amperage is higher? > > At early morning turn-on, the voltage might be too high, but high=20 > voltage is not going to trip a breaker. Current trips a breaker, not=20 > voltage. > > My guess is that something is going on inside the Classic controller.=20 > Larry=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9Cwild guess=E2=80=9D might be on the mark. Do you= have another Classic=20 > to swap out with? > > Brian Teitelbaum > > AEE Solar > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org=20 > ] *On Behalf Of=20 > *Daniel Tittmann > *Sent:* Wednesday, October 28, 2015 3:05 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Classic 150 100 amp utput breaker=20 > tripping????? > > An update on this issue: > > On my initial visit to diagnose this problem I changed the AGS=20 > settings higher volt start and % state of charge start. The report=20 > from the client is that this has fixed the AGS issue. So now I am=20 > just dealing with the 100 amp breaker tripping. > > The trip time from the client is when the sun hits the panels and once=20 > reset for the day it will not trip until the next morning. What could=20 > cause this? > > You are all right that the first step it changing out that breaker=20 > that will be the first on the list when I am back on site. I hope=20 > that is the only issue because as usual this system is 2 Hrs from the=20 > shop with no cell or internet coverage. > > Thanks for your input. > > Cheers- > > Daniel > > > Daniel Tittmann > > CTO > > Greenwired > > www.greenwired.com > > daniel at greenwired.com > > 707-923-2001 (office) > > 707-206-5088 (Cell) > > On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 10:25 PM, Mac Lewis > wrote: > > Hi Daniel, > > Do you know what the error is on the AGS? What are the start set=20 > points that you have? Jay could be on to something if the battery=20 > voltage is collapsing before the generator can start, the cc current=20 > could be high. Do you know specifically what time of day the breaker=20 > is tripping? > > I'd check the Midnite logs and consider starting the generator=20 > sooner. Is there large voltage swings (this could indicate bad=20 > battery or large load)? Make sure the wire is cleaned and torqued=20 > properly onto that breaker. > > How big is the battery bank and what is the tilt and azimuth of the=20 > panels? > > On Oct 26, 2015 11:05 PM, "Jay" > wrote: > > Hi Daniel > > Is this a new classic with OCP? Or maybe they don't have it anymore? > > What it sure sounds like like is a big load on the batteries, it hits=20 > faster than the AGS can start, and the caps in the classic are dumping=20 > into the super low battery voltage. If this is happening in the AM,=20 > guessing with enough light to get the CC alive > > If there is a trimetric, you can measure the lowest voltage which=20 > should give you some good info. Super low volts might mean a bad=20 > battery or too big a load or both. > > But I don't believe it's the other way around that the classic is=20 > causing any issues with the AGS/inverter > > You could always try another CC and see what happens > > Jay > > Peltz power > > > On Oct 26, 2015, at 6:30 PM, Daniel Tittmann > wrote: > > Hive mind- > > hoping you all can help me solve this mystery issue. > > System: > > Magnum double panel with Parallel stacked 2x4448 pae inverters. > > Classic 150 charge controller wired with an NMEPV 50 (din rail) > and NMEPV100 > > 18 - 245 watt solar modules (6x3). (not over powered) > > Issue: > > every morning the 100 amp din rail breaker is tripping. from what > I can gather simultaneously the magnum RTR shows the AGS go into > error. Re set the breaker and the solar works fine for the rest of > the day. > > Not 100% sure the AGS has worked (under normal operation) at all > other than at commissioning and recent testing. > > Of course on site i cant get it to fail. > > Tested the AGS by setting start voltage to 48.2 vdc and put the > system under load....... voltage drops and generator turned on > with no pv-> Batt breaker issue. > > last visit, chasing one theory, I re routed the battery + from the > mnpv100 directly to the battery + terminal as opposed to the > battery + bus bar in the inverter panel still didn't solve the > problem. > > I cant figure out if it the classic causing the issue or if it is > the inverters and the AGS. > > Any input would be appreciated. > > Thanks > > Daniel > > > Daniel Tittmann > > CTO > > Greenwired > > www.greenwired.com > > daniel at greenwired.com > > 707-923-2001 (office) > > 707-206-5088 (Cell) > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From boB at midnitesolar.com Thu Oct 29 16:06:07 2015 From: boB at midnitesolar.com (boB at midnitesolar.com) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 13:06:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Classic 150 100 amp output breaker tripping????? In-Reply-To: <563261B4.3070908@midnitesolar.com> References: <563261B4.3070908@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: <56327C2F.9080708@midnitesolar.com> This is probably not the breaker at fault. Could be, but just doesn't=20 seem like the only thing I would suspect. Do you know if the generator might be turning on and charging the=20 battery through the inverters at this time in the morning ? Since you were talking about=20 the AGS it makes me wonder... That would be a good clue. There is a possibility that a simple (you know how "simple" goes=20 sometimes !) adjustment that can be done on the Classic if it turns out to be, say, a surge in=20 battery voltage from the generator starting up and causing a reverse current through the battery=20 terminals... The inherent circuit design of higher efficiency converters can cause this. Send me / us an email if=20 you would like to try that. This is done through a special communications mode using the MNGP display. Also, is this a new system or has it been running for a while and just=20 now seeing this problem ? boB On 10/29/2015 11:13 AM, boB at midnitesolar.com wrote: > > You don't want to drive for hours and hours to do something that might=20 > not fix the problem. > > Without knowing exactly what is happening, I would bring a spare=20 > Classic and also a new breaker > which I think I heard we were sending you.... > > If the Classic is plugged into the internet, there is the possibility=20 > of monitoring it to see what is > going on just before the breaker trips. I would just bring another=20 > one in this case if you have one... > Otherwise, call our support and see if there is something they can do=20 > to help in this regard. > > Strange things do happen in this industry ! Troubleshooting isn't so=20 > bad as long as you don't have > drive or take a helicopter a long ways just to find that the unit is=20 > turned off. > > boB > > > > On 10/29/2015 9:55 AM, Brian Teitelbaum wrote: >> >> Daniel, >> >> Very strange problem. >> >> While I agree that you should try replacing the 100A breaker, I doubt=20 >> that it=E2=80=99s the problem. Why would a breaker trip at low amperage = in=20 >> the morning, but not trip at noon when the amperage is higher? >> >> At early morning turn-on, the voltage might be too high, but high=20 >> voltage is not going to trip a breaker. Current trips a breaker, not=20 >> voltage. >> >> My guess is that something is going on inside the Classic controller.=20 >> Larry=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9Cwild guess=E2=80=9D might be on the mark. Do yo= u have another=20 >> Classic to swap out with? >> >> Brian Teitelbaum >> >> AEE Solar >> >> *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org=20 >> ] *On Behalf Of=20 >> *Daniel Tittmann >> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 28, 2015 3:05 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Classic 150 100 amp utput breaker=20 >> tripping????? >> >> An update on this issue: >> >> On my initial visit to diagnose this problem I changed the AGS=20 >> settings higher volt start and % state of charge start. The report=20 >> from the client is that this has fixed the AGS issue. So now I am=20 >> just dealing with the 100 amp breaker tripping. >> >> The trip time from the client is when the sun hits the panels and=20 >> once reset for the day it will not trip until the next morning. What=20 >> could cause this? >> >> You are all right that the first step it changing out that breaker=20 >> that will be the first on the list when I am back on site. I hope=20 >> that is the only issue because as usual this system is 2 Hrs from the=20 >> shop with no cell or internet coverage. >> >> Thanks for your input. >> >> Cheers- >> >> Daniel >> >> >> Daniel Tittmann >> >> CTO >> >> Greenwired >> >> www.greenwired.com >> >> daniel at greenwired.com >> >> 707-923-2001 (office) >> >> 707-206-5088 (Cell) >> >> On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 10:25 PM, Mac Lewis > > wrote: >> >> Hi Daniel, >> >> Do you know what the error is on the AGS? What are the start set=20 >> points that you have? Jay could be on to something if the battery=20 >> voltage is collapsing before the generator can start, the cc current=20 >> could be high. Do you know specifically what time of day the breaker=20 >> is tripping? >> >> I'd check the Midnite logs and consider starting the generator=20 >> sooner. Is there large voltage swings (this could indicate bad=20 >> battery or large load)? Make sure the wire is cleaned and torqued=20 >> properly onto that breaker. >> >> How big is the battery bank and what is the tilt and azimuth of the=20 >> panels? >> >> On Oct 26, 2015 11:05 PM, "Jay" > > wrote: >> >> Hi Daniel >> >> Is this a new classic with OCP? Or maybe they don't have it anymore? >> >> What it sure sounds like like is a big load on the batteries, it hits=20 >> faster than the AGS can start, and the caps in the classic are=20 >> dumping into the super low battery voltage. If this is happening in=20 >> the AM, guessing with enough light to get the CC alive >> >> If there is a trimetric, you can measure the lowest voltage which=20 >> should give you some good info. Super low volts might mean a bad=20 >> battery or too big a load or both. >> >> But I don't believe it's the other way around that the classic is=20 >> causing any issues with the AGS/inverter >> >> You could always try another CC and see what happens >> >> Jay >> >> Peltz power >> >> >> On Oct 26, 2015, at 6:30 PM, Daniel Tittmann > > wrote: >> >> Hive mind- >> >> hoping you all can help me solve this mystery issue. >> >> System: >> >> Magnum double panel with Parallel stacked 2x4448 pae inverters. >> >> Classic 150 charge controller wired with an NMEPV 50 (din rail) >> and NMEPV100 >> >> 18 - 245 watt solar modules (6x3). (not over powered) >> >> Issue: >> >> every morning the 100 amp din rail breaker is tripping. from >> what I can gather simultaneously the magnum RTR shows the AGS go >> into error. Re set the breaker and the solar works fine for the >> rest of the day. >> >> Not 100% sure the AGS has worked (under normal operation) at all >> other than at commissioning and recent testing. >> >> Of course on site i cant get it to fail. >> >> Tested the AGS by setting start voltage to 48.2 vdc and put the >> system under load....... voltage drops and generator turned on >> with no pv-> Batt breaker issue. >> >> last visit, chasing one theory, I re routed the battery + from >> the mnpv100 directly to the battery + terminal as opposed to the >> battery + bus bar in the inverter panel still didn't solve the >> problem. >> >> I cant figure out if it the classic causing the issue or if it is >> the inverters and the AGS. >> >> Any input would be appreciated. >> >> Thanks >> >> Daniel >> >> >> Daniel Tittmann >> >> CTO >> >> Greenwired >> >> www.greenwired.com >> >> daniel at greenwired.com >> >> 707-923-2001 (office) >> >> 707-206-5088 (Cell) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Thu Oct 29 17:45:47 2015 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 14:45:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Classic 150 100 amp output breaker tripping????? In-Reply-To: <56327C2F.9080708@midnitesolar.com> References: <563261B4.3070908@midnitesolar.com> <56327C2F.9080708@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: <00D74A66-244B-4198-8305-E457D9C4A925@starlightsolar.com> After the Magnum Inverter/charger samples incoming AC power, they have a slight delay before starting the charger. Then, they ramp up current slowly. Even so, how will any current from any other source pass through the breaker unless the Classic is presenting a load? I suppose something else could be wired through the breaker but I’m guessing Daniel would have looked at that. Curious Larry On Oct 29, 2015, at 1:06 PM, boB at midnitesolar.com wrote: ...if it turns out to be, say, a surge in battery voltage from the generator starting up and causing a reverse current through the battery terminals… boB -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2015-10-29 at 2.35.08 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 13954 bytes Desc: not available URL: From boB at midnitesolar.com Thu Oct 29 19:19:46 2015 From: boB at midnitesolar.com (boB at midnitesolar.com) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 16:19:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Classic 150 100 amp output breaker tripping????? In-Reply-To: <00D74A66-244B-4198-8305-E457D9C4A925@starlightsolar.com> References: <563261B4.3070908@midnitesolar.com> <56327C2F.9080708@midnitesolar.com> <00D74A66-244B-4198-8305-E457D9C4A925@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <5632A992.3060609@midnitesolar.com> Larry, because these MPPT CC's are bi-directional (for efficiencies' sake), they can convert a large current at the battery side to a smaller current at the PV side if not adjusted right. Normally this is just taken care of and reduced to a bare minimum by the controller watching the voltages and currents carefully. It is technically possible though for things to not work exactly correctly. I am not saying that this is for sure happening, but it is possible. The ramping up in battery voltage from the chargers should be plenty slow enough for this not to be a problem but I am wildly speculating that this could happen and cannot rule it out. There may of course be something else completely different happening here though. If CBI breakers are being used, these are known to be extremely fast at tripping when overloaded. Also, what, if any SPDs are connected to the system ? boB On 10/29/2015 2:45 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > After the Magnum Inverter/charger samples incoming AC power, they have > a slight delay before starting the charger. Then, they ramp up current > slowly. > > Even so, how will any current from any other source pass through the > breaker unless the Classic is presenting a load? I suppose something > else could be wired through the breaker but I’m guessing Daniel would > have looked at that. > <<>> > Curious Larry > > > On Oct 29, 2015, at 1:06 PM, boB at midnitesolar.com > wrote: > > > ...if it turns out to be, say, a surge in battery voltage from the > generator > starting up and causing a reverse current through the battery terminals… > > boB > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Oct 29 20:02:38 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 17:02:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Classic 150 100 amp output breaker tripping????? In-Reply-To: <5632A992.3060609@midnitesolar.com> References: <563261B4.3070908@midnitesolar.com> <56327C2F.9080708@midnitesolar.com> <00D74A66-244B-4198-8305-E457D9C4A925@starlightsolar.com> <5632A992.3060609@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: boB, Is the OCP still being used and does it work in both directions? JAY Peltz power Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 29, 2015, at 4:19 PM, "boB at midnitesolar.com" wrote: > > > Larry, because these MPPT CC's are bi-directional (for efficiencies' sake), they can convert a large current > at the battery side to a smaller current at the PV side if not adjusted right. Normally this is just taken > care of and reduced to a bare minimum by the controller watching the voltages and currents carefully. > It is technically possible though for things to not work exactly correctly. I am not saying that this is > for sure happening, but it is possible. The ramping up in battery voltage from the chargers should > be plenty slow enough for this not to be a problem but I am wildly speculating that this could happen > and cannot rule it out. There may of course be something else completely different happening here > though. > > If CBI breakers are being used, these are known to be extremely fast at tripping when overloaded. > > Also, what, if any SPDs are connected to the system ? > > boB > > >> On 10/29/2015 2:45 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: >> After the Magnum Inverter/charger samples incoming AC power, they have a slight delay before starting the charger. Then, they ramp up current slowly. >> >> Even so, how will any current from any other source pass through the breaker unless the Classic is presenting a load? I suppose something else could be wired through the breaker but I’m guessing Daniel would have looked at that. > From boB at midnitesolar.com Thu Oct 29 21:10:08 2015 From: boB at midnitesolar.com (boB at midnitesolar.com) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 18:10:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Classic 150 100 amp output breaker tripping????? In-Reply-To: References: <563261B4.3070908@midnitesolar.com> <56327C2F.9080708@midnitesolar.com> <00D74A66-244B-4198-8305-E457D9C4A925@starlightsolar.com> <5632A992.3060609@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: <5632C370.5060309@midnitesolar.com> On 10/29/2015 5:02 PM, Jay wrote: > boB, > > Is the OCP still being used and does it work in both directions? > > JAY > Peltz power Hi Jay. Yes, the OCP you refer to is still there. This particular OCP though is a hardware fast OCP intended to protect the controller against large load surges on the battery side of the controller... This usually happens when battery cables are long and the inverter(s) are connected electrically close to the controller, thereby drawing huge amounts of current from the Classic than from the battery when the inverter is turned on, charging its input capacitors or something with huge AC loads. A good wiring practice these days is to, if convenient at least, wire the controller's battery terminals close or right at the battery terminals. Then, when an inverter is either turned on and giving a momentary short circuit to the battery lines, that current will come from the battery rather than the controller's electronics. Larger cables won't necessarily fix the problem due to battery cable inductance. The 150s and 200s rarely need the OCP circuitry. The 250 is the one the OCP was really designed for but we put it into all of the controllers. There is also over current protection going the other way but is not a microsecond timed protection. Plain old fast or slow ramping up surges like we're talking about is easy to control, normally. Breaker tripping like this is extremely rare, IF it is from this kind of current spikes due to generator startup. I would suggest to be safe and bring another controller up just in case. Might be a bad controller but I just don't know without logging or observing it happening with a scope and a current probe. I've seen some very strange things happen. boB > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Oct 29, 2015, at 4:19 PM, "boB at midnitesolar.com" wrote: >> >> >> Larry, because these MPPT CC's are bi-directional (for efficiencies' sake), they can convert a large current >> at the battery side to a smaller current at the PV side if not adjusted right. Normally this is just taken >> care of and reduced to a bare minimum by the controller watching the voltages and currents carefully. >> It is technically possible though for things to not work exactly correctly. I am not saying that this is >> for sure happening, but it is possible. The ramping up in battery voltage from the chargers should >> be plenty slow enough for this not to be a problem but I am wildly speculating that this could happen >> and cannot rule it out. There may of course be something else completely different happening here >> though. >> >> If CBI breakers are being used, these are known to be extremely fast at tripping when overloaded. >> >> Also, what, if any SPDs are connected to the system ? >> >> boB >> >> >>> On 10/29/2015 2:45 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: >>> After the Magnum Inverter/charger samples incoming AC power, they have a slight delay before starting the charger. Then, they ramp up current slowly. >>> >>> Even so, how will any current from any other source pass through the breaker unless the Classic is presenting a load? I suppose something else could be wired through the breaker but I’m guessing Daniel would have looked at that. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri Oct 30 12:00:38 2015 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 12:00:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fed Tax Credit Message-ID: <20151030160040.B18AF564057@homiemail-a59.g.dreamhost.com> Hello Wrenches, Is it permissible to take the the tax credit on the batteries and backup inverter of an AC coupled system when the system would be capable of feeding the grid without the backup inverter and the batteries? Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From William.White at rgsenergy.com Fri Oct 30 13:57:15 2015 From: William.White at rgsenergy.com (Will White) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 17:57:15 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fed Tax Credit In-Reply-To: <20151030160040.B18AF564057@homiemail-a59.g.dreamhost.com> References: <20151030160040.B18AF564057@homiemail-a59.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Talk to your tax advisor (or have the customer talk to theirs). Don't ever give out tax advise (unless you're licensed to) as it opens you to liability should you give them the wrong advise and they get audited by the IRS. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Friday, October 30, 2015 12:01 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fed Tax Credit Hello Wrenches, Is it permissible to take the the tax credit on the batteries and backup inverter of an AC coupled system when the system would be capable of feeding the grid without the backup inverter and the batteries? Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Sat Oct 31 09:57:38 2015 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 09:57:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Burndy part In-Reply-To: <003401d1101f$4300ede0$c902c9a0$@com> References: <003401d1101f$4300ede0$c902c9a0$@com> Message-ID: Can't you put a compression lug on the cable and bolt it on? The hole size is 1/2 inch. On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 2:51 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: > Hola amigos y amigas. > > > > I’m looking for a hard to find Burndy lug (EA34). Burndy calls it their > Versilug. I need three of ‘em, please. > > > > If anyone happens to have three or two or even one and is willing to sell, > please contact me off-list. > > > > Mahalo, > > marco > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sat Oct 31 14:28:41 2015 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 14:28:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fed Tax Credit In-Reply-To: References: <20151030160040.B18AF564057@homiemail-a59.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <20151031182851.C65C57D8058@homiemail-a58.g.dreamhost.com> I talked to my tax accountant. She had never had come across anything that would indicate that it would be a problem. Has anyone had customers that did or didn't have issues? Thanks, Drake At 01:57 PM 10/30/2015, you wrote: >Content-Language: en-US >Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > >boundary="_000_CY1PR15MB0567306710E7580F88273F5DE32F0CY1PR15MB0567namp_" > >Talk to your tax advisor (or have the customer talk to >theirs). Don't ever give out tax advise (unless you're licensed to) >as it opens you to liability should you give them the wrong advise >and they get audited by the IRS. > >From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] >On Behalf Of Drake >Sent: Friday, October 30, 2015 12:01 PM >To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fed Tax Credit > >Hello Wrenches, > >Is it permissible to take the the tax credit on the batteries and >backup inverter of an AC coupled system when the system would be >capable of feeding the grid without the backup inverter and the batteries? > >Thank you, > >Drake > >Drake Chamberlin >Athens Electric LLC >OH License 44810 >CO License 3773 >NABCEP Certified Solar PV >740-448-7328 >http://athens-electric.com/ > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Sat Oct 31 19:49:50 2015 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (Peter Giroux) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 18:49:50 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fed Tax Credit References: <20151030160040.B18AF564057@homiemail-a59.g.dreamhost.com> <20151031182851.C65C57D8058@homiemail-a58.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <0236A0C01B6B41FA80AB00FF5099592D@PeterPC> Drake Do it all the time, sell it as an entire system, which it is. peter ----- Original Message ----- From: Drake To: RE-wrenches Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2015 1:28 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fed Tax Credit I talked to my tax accountant. She had never had come across anything that would indicate that it would be a problem. Has anyone had customers that did or didn't have issues? Thanks, Drake At 01:57 PM 10/30/2015, you wrote: Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CY1PR15MB0567306710E7580F88273F5DE32F0CY1PR15MB0567namp_" Talk to your tax advisor (or have the customer talk to theirs). Don't ever give out tax advise (unless you're licensed to) as it opens you to liability should you give them the wrong advise and they get audited by the IRS. From: RE-wrenches [ mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Friday, October 30, 2015 12:01 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fed Tax Credit Hello Wrenches, Is it permissible to take the the tax credit on the batteries and backup inverter of an AC coupled system when the system would be capable of feeding the grid without the backup inverter and the batteries? Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Gary at IcarusSolarServices.com Sat Oct 31 19:45:02 2015 From: Gary at IcarusSolarServices.com (Gary Willett) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 18:45:02 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fed Tax Credit In-Reply-To: <0236A0C01B6B41FA80AB00FF5099592D@PeterPC> References: <20151030160040.B18AF564057@homiemail-a59.g.dreamhost.com> <20151031182851.C65C57D8058@homiemail-a58.g.dreamhost.com> <0236A0C01B6B41FA80AB00FF5099592D@PeterPC> Message-ID: <5635527E.3020104@IcarusSolarServices.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Sat Oct 31 21:12:29 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 19:12:29 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Classic 150 100 amp output breaker tripping????? In-Reply-To: <5632C370.5060309@midnitesolar.com> References: <563261B4.3070908@midnitesolar.com> <56327C2F.9080708@midnitesolar.com> <00D74A66-244B-4198-8305-E457D9C4A925@starlightsolar.com> <5632A992.3060609@midnitesolar.com> <5632C370.5060309@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: <563566FD.2070405@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Sat Oct 31 21:50:40 2015 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 19:50:40 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery recommendation WAS: Rolls batteries In-Reply-To: References: <899177C8-3C69-44F7-B9FD-25EA3DF88821@swnl.net> <2cd7c5cc35f189b528e6d0fcfdc930a5.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> <562928A7.3010106@sindelarsolar.com> <20151023143134.5FE4C10BD8@che.dreamhost.com> <562ACEF7.5070109@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <56356FF0.2080105@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Oct 31 18:32:30 2015 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 15:32:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fed Tax Credit In-Reply-To: <20151031182851.C65C57D8058@homiemail-a58.g.dreamhost.com> References: <20151030160040.B18AF564057@homiemail-a59.g.dreamhost.com> <20151031182851.C65C57D8058@homiemail-a58.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: I thought the ITC was all types of solar products? > On Oct 31, 2015, at 11:28 AM, Drake wrote: > > I talked to my tax accountant. She had never had come across anything that would indicate that it would be a problem. Has anyone had customers that did or didn't have issues? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > > > At 01:57 PM 10/30/2015, you wrote: >> Content-Language: en-US >> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; >> boundary="_000_CY1PR15MB0567306710E7580F88273F5DE32F0CY1PR15MB0567namp_" >> >> Talk to your tax advisor (or have the customer talk to theirs). Don’t ever give out tax advise (unless you’re licensed to) as it opens you to liability should you give them the wrong advise and they get audited by the IRS. >> >> From: RE-wrenches [ mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Drake >> Sent: Friday, October 30, 2015 12:01 PM >> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fed Tax Credit >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> Is it permissible to take the the tax credit on the batteries and backup inverter of an AC coupled system when the system would be capable of feeding the grid without the backup inverter and the batteries? >> >> Thank you, >> >> Drake >> >> Drake Chamberlin >> Athens Electric LLC >> OH License 44810 >> CO License 3773 >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV >> 740-448-7328 >> http://athens-electric.com/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From boB at midnitesolar.com Sun Nov 1 02:08:03 2015 From: boB at midnitesolar.com (boB at midnitesolar.com) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 00:08:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Classic 150 100 amp output breaker tripping????? In-Reply-To: <563566FD.2070405@sindelarsolar.com> References: <563261B4.3070908@midnitesolar.com> <56327C2F.9080708@midnitesolar.com> <00D74A66-244B-4198-8305-E457D9C4A925@starlightsolar.com> <5632A992.3060609@midnitesolar.com> <5632C370.5060309@midnitesolar.com> <563566FD.2070405@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <5635BA53.6030601@midnitesolar.com> Allan, No, not suggesting to get rid of E-panels or wiring centers. They aren't optimum though, electrically speaking. My suggestion was more of a technical one intended to illustrate a way of wiring to reduce stress on (most) MPPT charge controllers. I should not have said it was a a good practice "these days"... That was kind of dumb for me to say. With the battery electrically a few feet away from the battery buses, that tie the inverter and charge controllers together (plus other components), the CCs and other energy sources can be momentarily short-circuited by the inverter (various reasons)... If that bus was right at the battery terminals, then it's not nearly as much stress on things. This is because the battery keeps a low impedance voltage point between the two different systems.... This assumes that the batteries are in decent health. You probably won't notice any issues wiring just the way you have been doing things all these years so I would just keep doing what you are doing. With proper over current protection (OCP), stress and reliability won't be an problem. But, it doesn't hurt to keep this concept in the back of your mind when thinking about how things work. boB On 10/31/2015 6:12 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > boB, > I appreciate your contribution to this discussion, but it brings up a > couple of issues for me. > > - You have suggested that "A good wiring practice these days is > to...wire the controller's battery terminals close or right at the > battery terminals." This goes against all modern good practices of > which I'm aware. We have long accepted as standard a single pair of > battery cables, with all DC input and distribution handled within the > power center (I've heard that some people refer to these things as > 'E-Panels'). It's the only way to effectively run all current through > a shunt on the negative, and through proper overcurrent > protection/disconnects on the positive. > > I must not have understood what you meant, as it sounds like you're > suggesting abandoning the entire E-Panel approach. What am I missing here? > Thanks, Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > ** > > On 10/29/2015 7:10 PM, boB at midnitesolar.com wrote: >> On 10/29/2015 5:02 PM, Jay wrote: >>> boB, >>> Is the OCP still being used and does it work in both directions? >>> JAY, Peltz power >> >> Hi Jay. Yes, the OCP you refer to is still there. This particular >> OCP though is a hardware >> fast OCP intended to protect the controller against large load surges >> on the battery >> side of the controller... This usually happens when battery cables >> are long and >> the inverter(s) are connected electrically close to the controller, >> thereby drawing >> huge amounts of current from the Classic than from the battery when >> the inverter >> is turned on, charging its input capacitors or something with huge AC >> loads. >> >> A good wiring practice these days is to, if convenient at least, wire >> the controller's >> battery terminals close or right at the battery terminals. Then, when >> an inverter >> is either turned on and giving a momentary short circuit to the >> battery lines, that >> current will come from the battery rather than the controller's >> electronics. >> >> Larger cables won't necessarily fix the problem due to battery >> cable inductance. >> >> The 150s and 200s rarely need the OCP circuitry. The 250 is the one >> the OCP was >> really designed for but we put it into all of the controllers. >> >> There is also over current protection going the other way but is not >> a microsecond >> timed protection. Plain old fast or slow ramping up surges like >> we're talking about is easy to >> control, normally. >> >> Breaker tripping like this is extremely rare, IF it is from this kind >> of current spikes due to >> generator startup. I would suggest to be safe and bring another >> controller up just in case. >> >> Might be a bad controller but I just don't know without logging or >> observing it happening >> with a scope and a current probe. I've seen some very strange things >> happen. >> >> boB >> Sent from my iPhone >>>> On Oct 29, 2015, at 4:19 PM, "boB at midnitesolar.com" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Larry, because these MPPT CC's are bi-directional (for >>>> efficiencies' sake), they can convert a large current >>>> at the battery side to a smaller current at the PV side if not >>>> adjusted right. Normally this is just taken >>>> care of and reduced to a bare minimum by the controller watching >>>> the voltages and currents carefully. >>>> It is technically possible though for things to not work exactly >>>> correctly. I am not saying that this is >>>> for sure happening, but it is possible. The ramping up in battery >>>> voltage from the chargers should >>>> be plenty slow enough for this not to be a problem but I am wildly >>>> speculating that this could happen >>>> and cannot rule it out. There may of course be something else >>>> completely different happening here >>>> though. >>>> >>>> If CBI breakers are being used, these are known to be extremely >>>> fast at tripping when overloaded. >>>> >>>> Also, what, if any SPDs are connected to the system ? >>>> >>>> boB > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dduffield at me.com Sun Nov 1 14:46:15 2015 From: dduffield at me.com (Daniel Duffield) Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2015 12:46:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Classic 150 100 amp output breaker tripping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <27CB450A-D684-4C61-B57A-B5D46E138C33@me.com> Some years ago, we had a similiar problem with a 50 amp breaker nuisance tripping, we over analyzed the problem and still could not prevent this erratic issue, sometimes it would work fine for weeks - sometimes days apart, sometimes on sunny days, sometimes on cloudy days. In the end the answer was simple and so easy it was overlooked more than once. It was just a matter of the proper torque, with the copper compression fitting on a Sq D QO breaker, just a hair breathe too loose, enough heat would build over many hours to change the trip curve. We measured, swapped breakers, everything you could think off until we employed a torque wrench with a screwdriver bit. Problem vanished, never to come back. Not saying this is answer, but sometimes tightening a compression fitting to the correct "feel", by a journeman electrician with 20 years experience, is not good enough. If your crew or organization has torque screwdrivers, we had no excuse not to use them, and back then we found out the hardway. Daniel O. Duffield NABCEP Certified PV Installer since 2005 EE 98 & ER01, Albuquerque, New Mexico, IEEE member 1995 DPW Solar (Integration-Division) > From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Sun Nov 1 18:24:26 2015 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 18:24:26 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fences Schools and Codes Message-ID: We are doing a ground mount system at a private school. I recommended a fence be put around it and they want to mimic the aesthetic of their current fence, which is a sort of picket fence with rough sawn lumber. I will check with the AHJ but was wondering if anyone knows of code specific to fencing that should be kept in mind? Thanks Adam Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies 4872 State Route 9G Germantown NY, 12526 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sun Nov 1 22:35:26 2015 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 22:35:26 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fences Schools and Codes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20151102033605.B544F100D4@che.dreamhost.com> Confirm with NYSERDA what their requirements are if you will be applying for NY Sun incentives. Sincerely, Glenn Burt Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. -----Original Message----- From: "AE Solar" Sent: ‎11/‎1/‎2015 18:24 To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fences Schools and Codes We are doing a ground mount system at a private school. I recommended a fence be put around it and they want to mimic the aesthetic of their current fence, which is a sort of picket fence with rough sawn lumber. I will check with the AHJ but was wondering if anyone knows of code specific to fencing that should be kept in mind? Thanks Adam Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies 4872 State Route 9G Germantown NY, 12526 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Mon Nov 2 07:48:23 2015 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 07:48:23 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fences Schools and Codes In-Reply-To: <20151102033605.B544F100D4@che.dreamhost.com> References: <20151102033605.B544F100D4@che.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: They said the incentive is the same as commercial. On Sunday, November 1, 2015, Glenn Burt wrote: > Confirm with NYSERDA what their requirements are if you will be applying > for NY Sun incentives. > > Sincerely, > Glenn Burt > Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos. > ------------------------------ > From: AE Solar > > Sent: ‎11/‎1/‎2015 18:24 > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fences Schools and Codes > > We are doing a ground mount system at a private school. I recommended a > fence be put around it and they want to mimic the aesthetic of their > current fence, which is a sort of picket fence with rough sawn lumber. I > will check with the AHJ but was wondering if anyone knows of code specific > to fencing that should be kept in mind? Thanks > Adam > > Adam Katzman > Autonomous Energies > 4872 State Route 9G > Germantown NY, 12526 > www.autonomousenergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > -- Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies 4872 State Route 9G Germantown NY, 12526 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Mon Nov 2 06:44:03 2015 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 07:44:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Classic 150 100 amp output breaker tripping In-Reply-To: <27CB450A-D684-4C61-B57A-B5D46E138C33@me.com> References: <27CB450A-D684-4C61-B57A-B5D46E138C33@me.com> Message-ID: Good tip, and also prompts me to remind that a thermal camera will see a lot of problems the eye cannot. We have a fluke thermal camera and I make it a practise to survey a customer's electrical room prior to doing a proposal, as identifying the overloaded components can help to avoid the blame game later. It's the old story, you installed solar so you are responsible for everything that went wrong later. I did a survey recently for a customer as part of a proposal and with the camera could see that the middle phase on their 800A main breaker was very hot, although it carried the lowest current relevant to the others. The main breaker was clearly faulty and would fail soon. Had we a solar installation in place, it would have been construed as being because we back fed the breaker. On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 3:46 PM, Daniel Duffield wrote: > Some years ago, we had a similiar problem with a 50 amp breaker nuisance > tripping, we over analyzed the problem and still could not prevent this > erratic issue, sometimes it would work fine for weeks - sometimes days > apart, sometimes on sunny days, sometimes on cloudy days. > In the end the answer was simple and so easy it was overlooked more than > once. > It was just a matter of the proper torque, with the copper compression > fitting on a Sq D QO breaker, just a hair breathe too loose, enough heat > would build over many hours to change the trip curve. > We measured, swapped breakers, everything you could think off until we > employed a torque wrench with a screwdriver bit. > Problem vanished, never to come back. > Not saying this is answer, but sometimes tightening a compression fitting > to the correct "feel", by a journeman electrician with 20 years experience, > is not good enough. If your crew or organization has torque screwdrivers, > we had no excuse not to use them, and back then we found out the hardway. > > Daniel O. Duffield > NABCEP Certified PV Installer since 2005 > EE 98 & ER01, Albuquerque, New Mexico, IEEE member 1995 > DPW Solar (Integration-Division) > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Mon Nov 2 10:09:12 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 08:09:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fed Tax Credit In-Reply-To: References: <20151030160040.B18AF564057@homiemail-a59.g.dreamhost.com> <20151031182851.C65C57D8058@homiemail-a58.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <005e01d11580$701f6d40$505e47c0$@com> Question related to back up generators installed during a solar installation: For many years my clients have claimed their backup generators as part of the solar system if installed at the time of the solar installation & on the same invoice. No one has gotten called on this to date. Any comment on this practice? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2015 4:33 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fed Tax Credit I thought the ITC was all types of solar products? On Oct 31, 2015, at 11:28 AM, Drake wrote: I talked to my tax accountant. She had never had come across anything that would indicate that it would be a problem. Has anyone had customers that did or didn't have issues? Thanks, Drake At 01:57 PM 10/30/2015, you wrote: Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CY1PR15MB0567306710E7580F88273F5DE32F0CY1PR15MB0567namp_" Talk to your tax advisor (or have the customer talk to theirs). Don’t ever give out tax advise (unless you’re licensed to) as it opens you to liability should you give them the wrong advise and they get audited by the IRS. From: RE-wrenches [ mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Friday, October 30, 2015 12:01 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fed Tax Credit Hello Wrenches, Is it permissible to take the the tax credit on the batteries and backup inverter of an AC coupled system when the system would be capable of feeding the grid without the backup inverter and the batteries? Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Mon Nov 2 10:06:09 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 08:06:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] mystery amperage disappears & re-appears in AM In-Reply-To: <27CB450A-D684-4C61-B57A-B5D46E138C33@me.com> References: <27CB450A-D684-4C61-B57A-B5D46E138C33@me.com> Message-ID: <005d01d11580$02be5400$083afc00$@com> Many years back, I had a similar problem with a remote offgrid new client with an existing system: Early morning resulted in voltage & "some amperage" but not what they used to get. Then as the day progressed amperage dropped off but voltage remained constant as though under load not open circuit. I checked everything I could find and asked if there were any more connections, "no there were not" was the response. On the third trip there they "remembered" a junction box under the front of the house. Opening the metal 16x16x6 J box yielded 2 split bolts burnt touching the box & taped with temp wrap black electrical tape (now burnt) at what was originally only 3 layers of wrap. Yikes! Replaced both split bolts, trimmed the wire back (fortunately there was excess in the box) and covered with rubber lineman's tape and all was well. Point here are the metal box probably saved a house fire those suckers were really hot by midday, & thankfully today we have much better alternatives to split bolts. The regular re-torque & inspection of mechanical connections is a very good idea & a way to reconnect with clients and keep the system operation & safety up to par. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - dana at solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Duffield Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2015 12:46 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Classic 150 100 amp output breaker tripping Some years ago, we had a similiar problem with a 50 amp breaker nuisance tripping, we over analyzed the problem and still could not prevent this erratic issue, sometimes it would work fine for weeks - sometimes days apart, sometimes on sunny days, sometimes on cloudy days. In the end the answer was simple and so easy it was overlooked more than once. It was just a matter of the proper torque, with the copper compression fitting on a Sq D QO breaker, just a hair breathe too loose, enough heat would build over many hours to change the trip curve. We measured, swapped breakers, everything you could think off until we employed a torque wrench with a screwdriver bit. Problem vanished, never to come back. Not saying this is answer, but sometimes tightening a compression fitting to the correct "feel", by a journeman electrician with 20 years experience, is not good enough. If your crew or organization has torque screwdrivers, we had no excuse not to use them, and back then we found out the hardway. Daniel O. Duffield NABCEP Certified PV Installer since 2005 EE 98 & ER01, Albuquerque, New Mexico, IEEE member 1995 DPW Solar (Integration-Division) > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From eric at harvesthesun.com Mon Nov 2 12:15:44 2015 From: eric at harvesthesun.com (SunHarvest) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 09:15:44 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fed Tax Credit In-Reply-To: References: <20151030160040.B18AF564057@homiemail-a59.g.dreamhost.com> <20151031182851.C65C57D8058@homiemail-a58.g.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: We've never had a problem with this approach. Then again, we've never had a client get audited, to my knowledge, and that, I imagine, will be where the rubber finally hits the road. Eric Stikes GoodSun Solar A 501(C)(3) CA. Non-profit Corp. NABCEP PV Pro 001.530.798.3738 (cell) www.GoodSun.life [sent via pigeon...or cell phone] > On Oct 31, 2015, at 3:32 PM, jay wrote: > > I thought the ITC was all types of solar products? >> On Oct 31, 2015, at 11:28 AM, Drake wrote: >> >> I talked to my tax accountant. She had never had come across anything that would indicate that it would be a problem. Has anyone had customers that did or didn't have issues? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> >> >> >> At 01:57 PM 10/30/2015, you wrote: >>> Content-Language: en-US >>> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; >>> boundary="_000_CY1PR15MB0567306710E7580F88273F5DE32F0CY1PR15MB0567namp_" >>> >>> Talk to your tax advisor (or have the customer talk to theirs). Don’t ever give out tax advise (unless you’re licensed to) as it opens you to liability should you give them the wrong advise and they get audited by the IRS. >>> >>> From: RE-wrenches [ mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake >>> Sent: Friday, October 30, 2015 12:01 PM >>> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fed Tax Credit >>> >>> Hello Wrenches, >>> >>> Is it permissible to take the the tax credit on the batteries and backup inverter of an AC coupled system when the system would be capable of feeding the grid without the backup inverter and the batteries? >>> >>> Thank you, >>> >>> Drake >>> >>> Drake Chamberlin >>> Athens Electric LLC >>> OH License 44810 >>> CO License 3773 >>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV >>> 740-448-7328 >>> http://athens-electric.com/ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Mon Nov 2 12:19:30 2015 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 10:19:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generac EcoGen Failure. Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, I've installed quite a few of the small 6 kW Generac EcoGen units for my off-grid customers and have been pretty pleased with them…up to now. The 15kW EcoGen unit recently became available and I commissioned one last week for a nearby off-grid site. The generator ran fine the first day, then the very next day I got a call from the customer saying that the genny auto started, ran for less than an hour, then started sounding funny and shut off with an error alarm. I made a site visit to check out the problem, and found that it would not start. Some further investigation suggests that there is some electronic control issue keeping it from running. The error code suggests a component failure. This is a brand new generator with less than 3 hrs of run time. The real issue I'm facing is that despite the fact that I am a Generac "Dealer", Generac refuses to give me access to Tech support or to help me with any troubleshooting over the phone. I can't get access to any service manuals or, really, anything unless I pay them ~$2k to become a Service dealer by attending some Tech training classes and buying a bunch of spare parts I will likely never need. In general I'm not opposed to doing this as I work on generators all the time and it would be a good niche for my area, however it wouldn't help in this case, and I'm not exactly eager to pay Generac for training after the brushoff I got when I talked to Customer Support about this issue. Generac says my only option to get any kind of help or service on this generator is to contact a Service dealer. As I am based in rural Southern CO, the closest Service dealer is 3-1/2 hrs away. Of course this leaves me in a lousy position and makes it nearly impossible for me to help my customer in a timely manner, as it might take a week to get someone out here and then I'll likely have to pay for the drive time because the warranty won't cover anything over 100 miles round trip. I have to say I'm pretty much appalled at this lack of support for an obvious warranty issue with a brand new product. I know we've had some Generac discussions on here before. Seems like we may even have a couple of Generac Service folks on this list. Any advice on how I could get some troubleshooting help without bringing someone in from halfway across the state? Or does anyone know of a good Generac forum where I might be able to get some help? Thanks as always. I appreciate this list. -Luke NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO. 81144 SGSRenewables at Gmail.com 719.588.3044 www.sgsrenewables.com From maclewis1 at gmail.com Mon Nov 2 12:29:11 2015 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 10:29:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generac EcoGen Failure. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Luke, I'm happy to help. You can contact me off-list. Thanks On Nov 2, 2015 10:19 AM, "Luke Christy" wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > I've installed quite a few of the small 6 kW Generac EcoGen units for my > off-grid customers and have been pretty pleased with them…up to now. The > 15kW EcoGen unit recently became available and I commissioned one last week > for a nearby off-grid site. The generator ran fine the first day, then the > very next day I got a call from the customer saying that the genny auto > started, ran for less than an hour, then started sounding funny and shut > off with an error alarm. I made a site visit to check out the problem, and > found that it would not start. Some further investigation suggests that > there is some electronic control issue keeping it from running. The error > code suggests a component failure. > > This is a brand new generator with less than 3 hrs of run time. > > The real issue I'm facing is that despite the fact that I am a Generac > "Dealer", Generac refuses to give me access to Tech support or to help me > with any troubleshooting over the phone. I can't get access to any service > manuals or, really, anything unless I pay them ~$2k to become a Service > dealer by attending some Tech training classes and buying a bunch of spare > parts I will likely never need. In general I'm not opposed to doing this as > I work on generators all the time and it would be a good niche for my area, > however it wouldn't help in this case, and I'm not exactly eager to pay > Generac for training after the brushoff I got when I talked to Customer > Support about this issue. > > Generac says my only option to get any kind of help or service on this > generator is to contact a Service dealer. As I am based in rural Southern > CO, the closest Service dealer is 3-1/2 hrs away. Of course this leaves me > in a lousy position and makes it nearly impossible for me to help my > customer in a timely manner, as it might take a week to get someone out > here and then I'll likely have to pay for the drive time because the > warranty won't cover anything over 100 miles round trip. > > I have to say I'm pretty much appalled at this lack of support for an > obvious warranty issue with a brand new product. > > I know we've had some Generac discussions on here before. Seems like we > may even have a couple of Generac Service folks on this list. Any advice on > how I could get some troubleshooting help without bringing someone in from > halfway across the state? Or does anyone know of a good Generac forum where > I might be able to get some help? > > Thanks as always. I appreciate this list. > > -Luke > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 > NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 > > Solar Gain Services, LLC > PO Box 531 > Monte Vista, CO. 81144 > SGSRenewables at Gmail.com > 719.588.3044 > www.sgsrenewables.com > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at independentpowerllc.com Mon Nov 2 13:47:51 2015 From: dave at independentpowerllc.com (Dave) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 13:47:51 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] gas dryer recommendation Message-ID: <00e201d1159e$fabef650$f03ce2f0$@com> I have an off grid customer was still uses, and likes (frugal folks), his mod-sine DR inverter. His mother in law wants to buy the household a gas clothes dryer. I asked if she would buy them an inverter upgrade and a dryer. Evidently not. Any recommendations for a gas dryer that could operate well off the old DR? I'm assuming one that doesn't have all the LED's and electronics will have a better chance, is this correct? Thanks, Dave David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Mon Nov 2 14:31:31 2015 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 15:31:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generac EcoGen Failure. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You do need a service tech on staff to be a service dealer. Otherwise you are just selling the product. In order to be a service tech you need to attend training every two years. I have to travel from the Caribbean to Wisconsin to take the training at my own expense, they don't provide hotel anymore. The aim is to ensure properly trained technicians. Generac pays us to do the services, something most solar manufacturers won't do. You are in a pretty unique position, not having any service dealers close by. However, Generac may agree to pay the cost to bring a service tech to your site. It is their responsibility to do the service. In one case they flew a tech to the Caribbean to service a commercial unit. Now they just send them to me. If I can assist you remotely I will. Send me an email off list with a full description of the problem and I will see what I can do. On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 1:19 PM, Luke Christy wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > I've installed quite a few of the small 6 kW Generac EcoGen units for my > off-grid customers and have been pretty pleased with them…up to now. The > 15kW EcoGen unit recently became available and I commissioned one last week > for a nearby off-grid site. The generator ran fine the first day, then the > very next day I got a call from the customer saying that the genny auto > started, ran for less than an hour, then started sounding funny and shut > off with an error alarm. I made a site visit to check out the problem, and > found that it would not start. Some further investigation suggests that > there is some electronic control issue keeping it from running. The error > code suggests a component failure. > > This is a brand new generator with less than 3 hrs of run time. > > The real issue I'm facing is that despite the fact that I am a Generac > "Dealer", Generac refuses to give me access to Tech support or to help me > with any troubleshooting over the phone. I can't get access to any service > manuals or, really, anything unless I pay them ~$2k to become a Service > dealer by attending some Tech training classes and buying a bunch of spare > parts I will likely never need. In general I'm not opposed to doing this as > I work on generators all the time and it would be a good niche for my area, > however it wouldn't help in this case, and I'm not exactly eager to pay > Generac for training after the brushoff I got when I talked to Customer > Support about this issue. > > Generac says my only option to get any kind of help or service on this > generator is to contact a Service dealer. As I am based in rural Southern > CO, the closest Service dealer is 3-1/2 hrs away. Of course this leaves me > in a lousy position and makes it nearly impossible for me to help my > customer in a timely manner, as it might take a week to get someone out > here and then I'll likely have to pay for the drive time because the > warranty won't cover anything over 100 miles round trip. > > I have to say I'm pretty much appalled at this lack of support for an > obvious warranty issue with a brand new product. > > I know we've had some Generac discussions on here before. Seems like we > may even have a couple of Generac Service folks on this list. Any advice on > how I could get some troubleshooting help without bringing someone in from > halfway across the state? Or does anyone know of a good Generac forum where > I might be able to get some help? > > Thanks as always. I appreciate this list. > > -Luke > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 > NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 > > Solar Gain Services, LLC > PO Box 531 > Monte Vista, CO. 81144 > SGSRenewables at Gmail.com > 719.588.3044 > www.sgsrenewables.com > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Mon Nov 2 19:27:10 2015 From: dana at solarwork.com (dana at solarwork.com) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 17:27:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] gas dryer recommendation In-Reply-To: <00e201d1159e$fabef650$f03ce2f0$@com> References: <00e201d1159e$fabef650$f03ce2f0$@com> Message-ID: <0B6D00DB-5AAB-4CC3-87F6-6445FB7741BB@solarwork.com> The big problem with the DR is how the sine wave crosses the X axis some controls like it some controls don't I don't have a list of which ones work and which ones don't Dana Orzel 208.721.7003 Encourage Free Thinking Self Responsible Free Range Children On Nov 2, 2015, at 11:47 AM, Dave wrote: I have an off grid customer was still uses, and likes (frugal folks), his mod-sine DR inverter. His mother in law wants to buy the household a gas clothes dryer. I asked if she would buy them an inverter upgrade and a dryer. Evidently not. Any recommendations for a gas dryer that could operate well off the old DR? I'm assuming one that doesn't have all the LED's and electronics will have a better chance, is this correct? Thanks, Dave David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655