From toddcory at jps.net Tue Jan 25 17:12:51 2000 From: toddcory at jps.net (Todd Cory) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 14:12:51 -0800 Subject: Wattsun trackers [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.557807253-951758591-948838371@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 2556 bytes Desc: not available URL: From info at backwoodssolar.com Tue Jan 25 18:44:26 2000 From: info at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey - Backwoods Solar Electric) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:44:26 -0800 Subject: Wattsun trackers [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1752597589-951758591-948843866@topica.com> Todd: I have no experience with these trackers but I will copy your mail for Steve's review. He's away until 2-8. Scott www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems A catalog business on a mountain 2 miles from utility lines, powered entirely by our catalog products. IF UTILITY POWER IS 1/2 MILE OR MORE FROM YOUR SITE, get our free 160 page solar-electric Planning Guide/Catalog. (Your postal address required - Our list is never given or sold). Phone(208)263-4290 Fax (208) 265-4788 in Idaho, USA ----- Original Message ----- From: Todd Cory To: Wrenches Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2000 2:12 PM Subject: Wattsun trackers [RE-wrenches] > Hello fellow wrenches, > > What is the deal with Watsun trackers? I am curious if anyone else has > problems with these? I have two of the older style single axis units > that have worked flawlessly once the out of balance sensor conditions > got resolved. > > I have a customer with a Wattsun model SX60-10 dual axis tracker. It was > purchased in June of 1997. It is configured for 12 volt operation and > run's off a cable fed from the battery bank, not array direct. The > operation track record of this unit has been extremely poor. In the 2 ½ > years since I installed this unit it has been out of service 6 times! > This is embarrassing to me and the customer is very frustrated. > > Here's a detail of this unit's repairs: > > 6-97 installed unit delivered with broken motor / drive mount, unit > non functional > 8-8-97 replaced drive motor assembly, unit operational > 10-98 East limit switch failure, unit nonfunctional > 11-24-98 limit switch replaced, unit operational > 1-99 limit switch loose connection, re-soldered, unit operational > 9-8-99 East limit switch failure, replaced with spare, unit functional > > 9-29-99 motor binding, unit nonfunctional > 10-99 replacement motor and gear assembly installed, limit switch > activating too > soon as gears incorrectly assembled at factory, repaired on site, unit > operational > 11-99 E / W sensors unbalanced, unit not tracking, noticed gear drive > mentioned above has > bad gear that needs replacing due to incorrect assembly at factory, unit > nonfunctional > 12-13-99 sensors replaced, unit operational > > and now 1-25-00, customer called to report unit non functional again... > sigh > > While replacement parts have always been provided at no cost, this > situation has been > expensive and very frustrating for the customer. I am curious what > "luck" others have had with these trackers, and what if anything other > wrenches might suggest to get this unit working consistently without > repair every few months. I know some dealers (photocomm, aka golden > genesis, aka kyocera international) will not carry them due to these > problems. > > Help! > > Todd Cory > -- > Todd Cory > KE6SXS > toddcory at jps.net > Bald Mountain Solar > P.O. Box 689 > Mt. Shasta, Ca. 96067 > (530) 926-1079 > > The privilege of a lifetime is to be yourself. > > Joseph Campbell > > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Check out the new and improved Topica site! http://www.topica.com/t/13 From sunmountain at netstep.net Wed Jan 26 13:16:02 2000 From: sunmountain at netstep.net (Larry Brown) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 10:16:02 -0800 Subject: Wattsun trackers [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.734096972-951758591-948910562@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 5167 bytes Desc: not available URL: From i2p at aol.com Wed Jan 26 13:56:50 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (i2p at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 10:56:50 -0800 Subject: High Voltage current boosters [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1033189958-951758591-948913010@topica.com> Over the years I've had poor luck with high voltage current boosters. Reliablity has been poor no matter who makes them. Several pumping setups of ours use 180 vdc motors so the boosters need 250 vdc rating. Who has had good - bad experiences with HV boosters. 2nd item. California installers working in PG&E territory have about another month to get Trace systems net metered using the current certificate of compliance shipped with each SW Trace. After this time the inverters must meet the revised IEEE 929 (trace will supply software upgrades) Best, Don Loweburg/Offline - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Check out the new and improved Topica site! http://www.topica.com/t/13 From sunpwr at jps.net Wed Jan 26 15:59:10 2000 From: sunpwr at jps.net (Chuck Heath) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 12:59:10 -0800 Subject: Wattsun trackers [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1864727051-951758591-948920350@topica.com> I second Larry Brown and Todd Cory's experiences. Among my clients, there are 9 Wattsun trackers, dating from late 1991 to the last install of an Azimuth style about 4 years ago. Every one has had a problem, fixed at no charge by me or Array Technologies. The time/cost of so many callbacks is what prompted me to stop specifying them. The Zomeworks trackers have all performed without a hitch, except the sag of the larger (newer) universal models, such as 10 SR-100's. There, we beefed up the frame with extra angle iron which eliminated most of the bowing (sag). Chuck Heath, from my tiny mountaintop cabin powered by sunshine, where "our local park" is called Yosemite. sunpwr at jps.net PO Box 455 Big Oak Flat, CA 95305 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Check out the new and improved Topica site! http://www.topica.com/t/13 From ozsolar at ipa.net Wed Jan 26 18:48:44 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 15:48:44 -0800 Subject: Wattsun trackers [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.641401816-951758591-948930524@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 4634 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sunwise at win.bright.net Thu Jan 27 10:34:45 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (sunwise at win.bright.net) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 07:34:45 -0800 Subject: Wattsun trackers [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.220017717-951758591-948987285@topica.com> Greetings Todd, I have mixed feeligs on Wattsun Trackers. Having installed several, I have had my share of problems, but generally have had better luck than you are reporting. One problem that I have had that has not been mentioned is with Wattsun trackers on systems that have PWM charge controllers, particularly those manufactured by Heliotrope. Apparently these charge controllers can put "noise" on the line when they are charge controlling. This causes the tracker to move in an unusual fashion, much jerkier (motor even whinning at times) than normal and can result in burnt out motors and controllers. Ron and Michael over at Array Tech. have been very supportive in solving the problem and have apparently eliminated it in their new (came out late last fall) tracker controller. In all fairness, it should ben mentioned that Heliotrope and others (such as Trace) need to do their part in keeping such electronics adequetly filtered. The other thing I have discussed with my clients who own these trackers is to consider shutting them down during the two or three coldest months of the year. December and January are hard on moving equipment in Northern Wisconsin and the increased solar gain of a tracking array is marginial at best during this time of the year when the sun remains low in the winter sky. Some of my clients have decided to leave their trackers running all year while under warrentee, but plan to shut them down (facing South) for a couple months following the winter solstice once the three year warrentee has expired (install a switch, don't use the new non-tracking dip switch inside the controller head). Finally, I would like to say that I don't feel this is a problem confined to the good folks over at Array Technollogies. For years I have been doing "field research" for a number of R.E. manufacturers at my expense. When products are released into the matket that aren't really ready for prime-time, everyone looses. On the flip side, new products can't sit in a test facility for years in such a competitive industry. What are we to do???? Kurt Nelson -- SOLutions, Cornucopia, WI - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ______________________________________________ Faster, stronger and able to send millions of emails in one click: the new Topica site! http://www.topica.com/t/14 From richard.perez at homepower.com Thu Jan 27 13:28:23 2000 From: richard.perez at homepower.com (Richard Perez, Home Power magazine) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 10:28:23 -0800 Subject: Wattsun trackers [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1818992679-951758591-948997703@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/mixed Size: 3045 bytes Desc: not available URL: From richard.perez at homepower.com Fri Feb 11 15:34:14 2000 From: richard.perez at homepower.com (Richard Perez, Home Power magazine) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:34:14 -0800 Subject: Todd chargers in 24 VDC systems [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1984114926-951758591-950301254@topica.com> Hello Wrenches Anyone got any suggestions regarding hooking up two 12 Volt, 70 Amp Todd chargers to a 24 Volt battery (20 @ L-16s). We (Joe and I) wired the outputs of the Todds in series and then to the battery connection in the power center. Heavy wire and short runs. We set each Todd for half of the voltage we wanted to regulate the battery at. We switched on the Todds (powered by Honda ES6500 generator) and current output was way lower than we expected. By juggling the voltage limit controls on the Todds we were eventually able to get current output of the Todds up to around 30 Amps at 29 VDC. The stronger Todd we set up around 15 VDC and the weaker about 14 VDC. Bottom line is we are getting about 60% of the wattage our of the series connected Todds as we got when they were wired in parallel into a 12 Volt battery. Has anyone else run into this? Any fixes? Richard ------------------------------------ Richard Perez Home Power PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA Tele: 530-475-3179 FAX: 530-475-0836 Subscriptions: 800-707-6585 mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com Web: http://www.homepower.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From info at backwoodssolar.com Fri Feb 11 16:58:15 2000 From: info at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey - Backwoods Solar Electric) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 13:58:15 -0800 Subject: Todd chargers in 24 VDC systems [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1184480479-951758591-950306295@topica.com> Richard, I have been able to series Todd chargers (older type) without that trouble. But depending on the generator waveform, they can be lower. If all else is equal between your testing at 12 and in series 24 volt, then I suggest tying the center tap between the two chargers to the center tap of the battery. That way each one is tied to a 12 volt battery and should perform the same. In fact, that way one of the Todds is exactly the same as when charging a 12 volt battery, the other is too except that its negative is +12 volts respect to the chassis AC ground wire. So it would not seem that the neg ground voltage level is affecting the performance. I suspect a different input or output operating voltage in the 24 volt set-up. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Perez, Home Power magazine To: RE Wrenches Sent: Friday, February 11, 2000 12:34 PM Subject: Todd chargers in 24 VDC systems [RE-wrenches] > Hello Wrenches > > Anyone got any suggestions regarding hooking up two 12 Volt, 70 Amp > Todd chargers to a 24 Volt battery (20 @ L-16s). > > We (Joe and I) wired the outputs of the Todds in series and then to > the battery connection in the power center. Heavy wire and short > runs. We set each Todd for half of the voltage we wanted to regulate > the battery at. We switched on the Todds (powered by Honda ES6500 > generator) and current output was way lower than we expected. > > By juggling the voltage limit controls on the Todds we were > eventually able to get current output of the Todds up to around 30 > Amps at 29 VDC. The stronger Todd we set up around 15 VDC and the > weaker about 14 VDC. > > Bottom line is we are getting about 60% of the wattage our of the > series connected Todds as we got when they were wired in parallel > into a 12 Volt battery. > > Has anyone else run into this? Any fixes? > > Richard > ------------------------------------ > Richard Perez > Home Power > PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA > Tele: 530-475-3179 > FAX: 530-475-0836 > Subscriptions: 800-707-6585 > mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com > Web: http://www.homepower.com > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > > _____________________________________________________________ > Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! > http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From sunpwr at jps.net Fri Feb 11 16:59:19 2000 From: sunpwr at jps.net (Chuck Heath) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 13:59:19 -0800 Subject: Todd chargers in 24 VDC systems [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.255340666-951758591-950306359@topica.com> Richard asked... >Anyone got any suggestions regarding hooking up two 12 Volt, 70 Amp >Todd chargers to a 24 Volt battery (20 @ L-16s). Have you tried talking with Ben Todd in Tucson? The following db info is perhaps 4 years old, so things may have changed, but this is what I show: Todd Engineering Sales 3280 Hemisphere Loop, Suite 154 Tucson, AZ 85706 800-866-7738 or 520-889-9333 Ben Todd, Jared, Darrin or Jed in Tucson - chargers Transfer switches come from Todd's Elkhart, Indiana facility. Todd Engineering Sales 28706 Holiday Place Elkhart, Indiana 46517 800-333-8633 or 219-293-8633 Doug Bradt (sales), Steve (tech), Don Wilson (cust. svc) I've never found a Todd charger that could develop it's rated output, even with a Honda showing over 170 peak volts. Cordially, Chuck - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From ellison at gisco.net Fri Feb 11 16:59:40 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 13:59:40 -0800 Subject: Todd chargers in 24 VDC systems [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.300818421-951758591-950306380@topica.com> Richard, How about wiring them as 2 separate 12 volt packs as far as the chargers are concerned? The pack will not be balanced as it is charging but it might work. Major negative to positive @ 12 volts then from the next negative to the major positive (where you get your 24 volt + output from), I think each charger would only see 12 volts. Then you can use the equalizing charges to keep everything balanced. I think this will work, but I haven't had the time to check it out yet. I have been thinking about this a bit as I will be making some system changes to 24 volt in the future and it would be nice to be able to use the charging capacity that I have now. It's hard to beat 260 Ah of charging capability when you have to start the generator! You're the fellow I speak to about batteries so I am a little nervous about suggesting this...... See you in Madison WI., Bob Ellison RE. Ellison Alternative Energy Systems & Supplies 34642 Countryman Road Theresa, New York. USA. 13691-2076 -----Original Message----- From: Richard Perez, Home Power magazine [mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com] Sent: Friday, February 11, 2000 3:34 PM To: RE Wrenches Subject: Todd chargers in 24 VDC systems [RE-wrenches] Hello Wrenches Anyone got any suggestions regarding hooking up two 12 Volt, 70 Amp Todd chargers to a 24 Volt battery (20 @ L-16s). We (Joe and I) wired the outputs of the Todds in series and then to the battery connection in the power center. Heavy wire and short runs. We set each Todd for half of the voltage we wanted to regulate the battery at. We switched on the Todds (powered by Honda ES6500 generator) and current output was way lower than we expected. By juggling the voltage limit controls on the Todds we were eventually able to get current output of the Todds up to around 30 Amps at 29 VDC. The stronger Todd we set up around 15 VDC and the weaker about 14 VDC. Bottom line is we are getting about 60% of the wattage our of the series connected Todds as we got when they were wired in parallel into a 12 Volt battery. Has anyone else run into this? Any fixes? Richard ------------------------------------ Richard Perez Home Power PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA Tele: 530-475-3179 FAX: 530-475-0836 Subscriptions: 800-707-6585 mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com Web: http://www.homepower.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From richard.perez at homepower.com Fri Feb 11 17:41:24 2000 From: richard.perez at homepower.com (Richard Perez, Home Power magazine) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 14:41:24 -0800 Subject: Todd chargers in 24 VDC systems [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.297612330-951758591-950308884@topica.com> Hello Steve Thanks, we'll give it a try. Richard >Richard, I have been able to series Todd chargers (older type) without that >trouble. But depending on the generator waveform, they can be lower. If all >else is equal between your testing at 12 and in series 24 volt, then I >suggest tying the center tap between the two chargers to the center tap of >the battery. That way each one is tied to a 12 volt battery and should >perform the same. In fact, that way one of the Todds is exactly the same as >when charging a 12 volt battery, the other is too except that its negative >is +12 volts respect to the chassis AC ground wire. So it would not seem >that the neg ground voltage level is affecting the performance. I suspect a >different input or output operating voltage in the 24 volt set-up. > >Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com >Backwoods Solar Electric Systems >----- Original Message ----- >From: Richard Perez, Home Power magazine >To: RE Wrenches >Sent: Friday, February 11, 2000 12:34 PM >Subject: Todd chargers in 24 VDC systems [RE-wrenches] > > > > Hello Wrenches > > > > Anyone got any suggestions regarding hooking up two 12 Volt, 70 Amp > > Todd chargers to a 24 Volt battery (20 @ L-16s). > > > > We (Joe and I) wired the outputs of the Todds in series and then to > > the battery connection in the power center. Heavy wire and short > > runs. We set each Todd for half of the voltage we wanted to regulate > > the battery at. We switched on the Todds (powered by Honda ES6500 > > generator) and current output was way lower than we expected. > > > > By juggling the voltage limit controls on the Todds we were > > eventually able to get current output of the Todds up to around 30 > > Amps at 29 VDC. The stronger Todd we set up around 15 VDC and the > > weaker about 14 VDC. > > > > Bottom line is we are getting about 60% of the wattage our of the > > series connected Todds as we got when they were wired in parallel > > into a 12 Volt battery. > > > > Has anyone else run into this? Any fixes? > > > > Richard > > ------------------------------------ > > Richard Perez > > Home Power > > PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA > > Tele: 530-475-3179 > > FAX: 530-475-0836 > > Subscriptions: 800-707-6585 > > mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com > > Web: http://www.homepower.com > > > > - - - - - - - > > To send a message to the list use: > > > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > > > > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > > > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > > > for info contact: > > > > _____________________________________________________________ > > Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! > > http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk > > >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: > >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >for info contact: > >_____________________________________________________________ >Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! >http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk ------------------------------------ Richard Perez Home Power PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA Tele: 530-475-3179 FAX: 530-475-0836 Subscriptions: 800-707-6585 mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com Web: http://www.homepower.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From richard.perez at homepower.com Fri Feb 11 17:41:29 2000 From: richard.perez at homepower.com (Richard Perez, Home Power magazine) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 14:41:29 -0800 Subject: Todd chargers in 24 VDC systems [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1051344303-951758591-950308889@topica.com> Thanks, Chuck, we'll contact Todd and see what they say. I usually think of manufacturers' tech support last... We've never seen a Todd make 75 Amps either. Perhaps it's because they are rated at 12.0 VDC and battery voltage under charge is always higher than that. As a switching power supply, I'd expect them not to roll off so badly as battery voltage increases. Richard >Richard asked... > >Anyone got any suggestions regarding hooking up two 12 Volt, 70 Amp > >Todd chargers to a 24 Volt battery (20 @ L-16s). >Have you tried talking with Ben Todd in Tucson? > >The following db info is perhaps 4 years old, so things may have changed, >but this is what I show: > >Todd Engineering Sales >3280 Hemisphere Loop, Suite 154 >Tucson, AZ 85706 > >800-866-7738 or 520-889-9333 > >Ben Todd, Jared, Darrin or Jed in Tucson - chargers > >Transfer switches come from Todd's Elkhart, Indiana facility. > >Todd Engineering Sales >28706 Holiday Place >Elkhart, Indiana 46517 > >800-333-8633 or 219-293-8633 > >Doug Bradt (sales), Steve (tech), Don Wilson (cust. svc) > >I've never found a Todd charger that could develop it's rated output, >even with a Honda showing over 170 peak volts. > >Cordially, Chuck > >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: > >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >for info contact: > >_____________________________________________________________ >Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! >http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk ------------------------------------ Richard Perez Home Power PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA Tele: 530-475-3179 FAX: 530-475-0836 Subscriptions: 800-707-6585 mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com Web: http://www.homepower.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From richard.perez at homepower.com Fri Feb 11 17:41:36 2000 From: richard.perez at homepower.com (Richard Perez, Home Power magazine) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 14:41:36 -0800 Subject: Todd chargers in 24 VDC systems [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1612076217-951758591-950308896@topica.com> Hello Bob Steve Willey suggested the same fix and we'll try it. I think that there will be problems with the instrumentation. Unless each Todd puts out exactly the same amount of current, then the battery ampere-hour meter will become inaccurate on recharge. You bet you'll see us in Madison! Richard >Richard, >How about wiring them as 2 separate 12 volt packs as far as the chargers are >concerned? The pack will not be balanced as it is charging but it might >work. >Major negative to positive @ 12 volts then from the next negative to the >major positive (where you get your 24 volt + output from), I think each >charger would only see 12 volts. Then you can use the equalizing charges to >keep everything balanced. I think this will work, but I haven't had the time >to check it out yet. > >I have been thinking about this a bit as I will be making some system >changes to 24 volt in the future and it would be nice to be able to use the >charging capacity that I have now. It's hard to beat 260 Ah of charging >capability when you have to start the generator! > >You're the fellow I speak to about batteries so I am a little nervous about >suggesting this...... > >See you in Madison WI., >Bob Ellison > >RE. Ellison >Alternative Energy Systems & Supplies >34642 Countryman Road >Theresa, New York. USA. > 13691-2076 > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Richard Perez, Home Power magazine >[mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com] >Sent: Friday, February 11, 2000 3:34 PM >To: RE Wrenches >Subject: Todd chargers in 24 VDC systems [RE-wrenches] > >Hello Wrenches > >Anyone got any suggestions regarding hooking up two 12 Volt, 70 Amp >Todd chargers to a 24 Volt battery (20 @ L-16s). > >We (Joe and I) wired the outputs of the Todds in series and then to >the battery connection in the power center. Heavy wire and short >runs. We set each Todd for half of the voltage we wanted to regulate >the battery at. We switched on the Todds (powered by Honda ES6500 >generator) and current output was way lower than we expected. > >By juggling the voltage limit controls on the Todds we were >eventually able to get current output of the Todds up to around 30 >Amps at 29 VDC. The stronger Todd we set up around 15 VDC and the >weaker about 14 VDC. > >Bottom line is we are getting about 60% of the wattage our of the >series connected Todds as we got when they were wired in parallel >into a 12 Volt battery. > >Has anyone else run into this? Any fixes? > >Richard >------------------------------------ >Richard Perez >Home Power >PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA >Tele: 530-475-3179 >FAX: 530-475-0836 >Subscriptions: 800-707-6585 >mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com >Web: http://www.homepower.com > >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: > >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >for info contact: > >_____________________________________________________________ >Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! >http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk > > >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: > >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >for info contact: > >_____________________________________________________________ >Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! >http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk ------------------------------------ Richard Perez Home Power PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA Tele: 530-475-3179 FAX: 530-475-0836 Subscriptions: 800-707-6585 mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com Web: http://www.homepower.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From ellison at gisco.net Fri Feb 11 18:13:24 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 15:13:24 -0800 Subject: Todd chargers in 24 VDC systems [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1604201578-951758591-950310804@topica.com> Richard, I hadn't thought about what it would do to the metering, good point. Thanks, Bob Ellison RE. Ellison Alternative Energy Systems & Supplies 34642 Countryman Road Theresa, New York. USA. 13691-2076 -----Original Message----- From: Richard Perez, Home Power magazine [mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com] Sent: Friday, February 11, 2000 5:42 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: RE: Todd chargers in 24 VDC systems [RE-wrenches] Hello Bob Steve Willey suggested the same fix and we'll try it. I think that there will be problems with the instrumentation. Unless each Todd puts out exactly the same amount of current, then the battery ampere-hour meter will become inaccurate on recharge. You bet you'll see us in Madison! Richard >Richard, >How about wiring them as 2 separate 12 volt packs as far as the chargers are >concerned? The pack will not be balanced as it is charging but it might >work. >Major negative to positive @ 12 volts then from the next negative to the >major positive (where you get your 24 volt + output from), I think each >charger would only see 12 volts. Then you can use the equalizing charges to >keep everything balanced. I think this will work, but I haven't had the time >to check it out yet. > >I have been thinking about this a bit as I will be making some system >changes to 24 volt in the future and it would be nice to be able to use the >charging capacity that I have now. It's hard to beat 260 Ah of charging >capability when you have to start the generator! > >You're the fellow I speak to about batteries so I am a little nervous about >suggesting this...... > >See you in Madison WI., >Bob Ellison > >RE. Ellison >Alternative Energy Systems & Supplies >34642 Countryman Road >Theresa, New York. USA. > 13691-2076 > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Richard Perez, Home Power magazine >[mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com] >Sent: Friday, February 11, 2000 3:34 PM >To: RE Wrenches >Subject: Todd chargers in 24 VDC systems [RE-wrenches] > >Hello Wrenches > >Anyone got any suggestions regarding hooking up two 12 Volt, 70 Amp >Todd chargers to a 24 Volt battery (20 @ L-16s). > >We (Joe and I) wired the outputs of the Todds in series and then to >the battery connection in the power center. Heavy wire and short >runs. We set each Todd for half of the voltage we wanted to regulate >the battery at. We switched on the Todds (powered by Honda ES6500 >generator) and current output was way lower than we expected. > >By juggling the voltage limit controls on the Todds we were >eventually able to get current output of the Todds up to around 30 >Amps at 29 VDC. The stronger Todd we set up around 15 VDC and the >weaker about 14 VDC. > >Bottom line is we are getting about 60% of the wattage our of the >series connected Todds as we got when they were wired in parallel >into a 12 Volt battery. > >Has anyone else run into this? Any fixes? > >Richard >------------------------------------ >Richard Perez >Home Power >PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA >Tele: 530-475-3179 >FAX: 530-475-0836 >Subscriptions: 800-707-6585 >mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com >Web: http://www.homepower.com > >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: > >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >for info contact: > >_____________________________________________________________ >Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! >http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk > > >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: > >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >for info contact: > >_____________________________________________________________ >Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! >http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk ------------------------------------ Richard Perez Home Power PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA Tele: 530-475-3179 FAX: 530-475-0836 Subscriptions: 800-707-6585 mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com Web: http://www.homepower.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Sat Feb 12 11:51:17 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (Sharkey) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 08:51:17 -0800 Subject: Todd chargers in 24 VDC systems [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1433848880-951758591-950374277@topica.com> Richard; Unless it's too late to weigh in on the Todd issue, the final possibility is to modify the Todd to have a 24v output. While this is probably well beyond the average wrench's abilities, it's not impossible. You'd need to change some capacitors and re-wind the transformers. Of course, the output current would drop to half, but then you could use two modified chargers to make up the difference. In reality, there is no reason that one charger's master module couldn't run an unlimited number of slave modules, but that might be a bit more in depth than we need to get. Also consider this: Are both of the Todds you are using factory fresh? Will they make full current on a fairly discharged 12v battery or resistive load? It is possible for a Todd to partially fail. They have one master and five slave modules in the 75 amp version, each putting out 15 or so amps. Each module that dies subtracts 15 amps from the output. Failure of the master module's PWM circuit kills the charger completely. If anyone on the list has a dead Todd or Heliotrope charger, I can repair most any common problems, restoring the unit to working condition. I wouldn't mind getting ahold of a couple of dead ones to experiment on, either. 24 volt operation might be easier than you think! One final comment (gripe, complain, moan...). Considering the low volume of messages on this list, would it be possible to get comments *without* all of the original message in the body of the reply? Makes it yet more difficult to determine if there is new/additional text in the message I need to respond to. Not to mention disk space, etc... The subject line should be enough to clue us into the topic under discussion. Keep those photons working! -S - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From info at backwoodssolar.com Sat Feb 12 21:02:49 2000 From: info at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey - Backwoods Solar Electric) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 18:02:49 -0800 Subject: Todd chargers in 24 VDC systems [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.493673701-951758591-950407369@topica.com> Todd as you probably discovered, is all in Indiana now, no more Tucson. The 70 amp charger normally produces 50 amps, only going above that at some minimal low battery voltage. It IS sensitive to peak voltage of the generator, falling off as much as 50% when a Honda 3500 is used as source. Also the taper off as limit voltage is reached is sometimes sharp, sometimes very rounded. Statpower Truecharge 40+ is a better bet because they do give full output at nearly any input source you can find, and they also tell you what that output is via bar graph and have an equalize button as well as AGM and gel settings. Depending on Todds mood that day, the Stat product may be close in price to what you pay for the Todd 75. Lets all petition Statpower to produce a 24 volt version of the TrueCharge 40 or a stand-alone version of the chargers in 12 and 24 volt ProSine inverters. Its a needed item. Maybe 48 volt next year too. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From richard.perez at homepower.com Sun Feb 13 14:43:29 2000 From: richard.perez at homepower.com (Richard Perez, Home Power magazine) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 11:43:29 -0800 Subject: Todd chargers in 24 VDC systems [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.910837401-951758591-950471009@topica.com> We have a Statpower 20 Amp charger here and it works great--full output even a a little 600 watt Honda "suitcase" generator. Those Statpower chargers are great pieces of gear although expensive. I've got a "Charge Boost" transformer coming from Kirk at Vermont Solar. Perhaps that will pep up the Todds. Couldn't one series up two of the Statpower 40 chargers for 24 VDC operation? Richard >Todd as you probably discovered, is all in Indiana now, no more Tucson. > >The 70 amp charger normally produces 50 amps, only going above that at some >minimal low battery voltage. It IS sensitive to peak voltage of the >generator, falling off as much as 50% when a Honda 3500 is used as source. >Also the taper off as limit voltage is reached is sometimes sharp, sometimes >very rounded. > >Statpower Truecharge 40+ is a better bet because they do give full output at >nearly any input source you can find, and they also tell you what that >output is via bar graph and have an equalize button as well as AGM and gel >settings. Depending on Todds mood that day, the Stat product may be close >in price to what you pay for the Todd 75. > >Lets all petition Statpower to produce a 24 volt version of the TrueCharge >40 or a stand-alone version of the chargers in 12 and 24 volt ProSine >inverters. Its a needed item. Maybe 48 volt next year too. > >Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com >Backwoods Solar Electric Systems - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From info at backwoodssolar.com Mon Feb 14 15:15:17 2000 From: info at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey - Backwoods Solar Electric) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 12:15:17 -0800 Subject: Todd chargers in 24 VDC systems [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1539686250-951758591-950559317@topica.com> Yes, I suppose just like you did with Todd you could series the Truecharge 40+ to 24 volts, but I have some doubts about their advanced functions and haven't tried it: They do have some cycling where they shut down and follow battery voltage for 5 seconds. I run two parallel and they do that the first time almost simultaneously but the second or third cycles they perform are not quite simultaneous so I suspect big trouble there if used in series. Of course . With center tap connected to battery center tap, it should work. I don't think current differences would be too much either.But I would still like to see 24 volt models and larger amp ratings too. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems A catalog business on a mountain 2 miles from utility lines, powered entirely by our catalog products. IF UTILITY POWER IS 1/2 MILE OR MORE FROM YOUR SITE, get our free 160 page solar-electric Planning Guide/Catalog. (Your postal address required - Our list is never given or sold). Phone(208)263-4290 Fax (208) 265-4788 in Idaho, USA ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Perez, Home Power magazine To: Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2000 11:43 AM Subject: Re: Todd chargers in 24 VDC systems [RE-wrenches] > We have a Statpower 20 Amp charger here and it works great--full > output even a a little 600 watt Honda "suitcase" generator. Those > Statpower chargers are great pieces of gear although expensive. > > I've got a "Charge Boost" transformer coming from Kirk at Vermont > Solar. Perhaps that will pep up the Todds. > > Couldn't one series up two of the Statpower 40 chargers for 24 VDC operation? > > Richard > > >Todd as you probably discovered, is all in Indiana now, no more Tucson. > > > >The 70 amp charger normally produces 50 amps, only going above that at some > >minimal low battery voltage. It IS sensitive to peak voltage of the > >generator, falling off as much as 50% when a Honda 3500 is used as source. > >Also the taper off as limit voltage is reached is sometimes sharp, sometimes > >very rounded. > > > >Statpower Truecharge 40+ is a better bet because they do give full output at > >nearly any input source you can find, and they also tell you what that > >output is via bar graph and have an equalize button as well as AGM and gel > >settings. Depending on Todds mood that day, the Stat product may be close > >in price to what you pay for the Todd 75. > > > >Lets all petition Statpower to produce a 24 volt version of the TrueCharge > >40 or a stand-alone version of the chargers in 12 and 24 volt ProSine > >inverters. Its a needed item. Maybe 48 volt next year too. > > > >Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com > >Backwoods Solar Electric Systems > > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > > _____________________________________________________________ > Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! > http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From quicksilver at eagle-access.net Mon Feb 14 15:30:18 2000 From: quicksilver at eagle-access.net (Don Wallingford) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 12:30:18 -0800 Subject: Howdy Podners! [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.368372882-951758591-950560218@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 7081 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ellison at gisco.net Mon Feb 14 17:37:41 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 14:37:41 -0800 Subject: Solution for freezing pipes? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2089265304-951758591-950567861@topica.com> Use heat tape (not the cheap stuff) but the silver wire wrapped stuff that you terminate the end to whatever length you need. Put the tape in a straight line on the bottom of the pipe Wrap that with fiberglass pipe wrap and then with Reflectix pipe insulation. Do not squeeze the fiberglass tightly. If the insulation is not enough to keep it from freezing you can use the heat tape. Unfortunately running water does freeze, and seems to be harder to thaw out than standing water (just my personal experience / opinion). Thanks, Bob Ellison RE. Ellison Alternative Energy Systems & Supplies 34642 Countryman Road Theresa, New York. USA. 13691-2076 -----Original Message----- From: Wes Kennedy [mailto:wkennedy at jademountain.com] Sent: Monday, February 14, 2000 4:32 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Solution for freezing pipes? [RE-wrenches] Howdy List, What is the best design practice for dealing with keeping pipes from freezing. I have a client that has an unheated crawl and exposed plumbing. Located in High Altitude Colorado. Do folks design in heat tape and the pv to run it? Solar thermal solutions? Propane fired thermostatically controlled heaters? Leave the water running? thanks! Wes Wes Kennedy Evolutionary Technologist "Your philosophy is not what you believe, it's how you live!" -j rubin - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From wkennedy at jademountain.com Mon Feb 14 17:41:23 2000 From: wkennedy at jademountain.com (Wes Kennedy) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 14:41:23 -0800 Subject: Solution for freezing pipes? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.318318917-951758591-950568083@topica.com> What sort of power does this draw? If I wasn't clear before, this is an off grid application...... >Use heat tape (not the cheap stuff) but the silver wire wrapped stuff that >you terminate the end to whatever length you need. Put the tape in a >straight line on the bottom of the pipe Wrap that with fiberglass pipe wrap >and then with Reflectix pipe insulation. Do not squeeze the fiberglass >tightly. If the insulation is not enough to keep it from freezing you can >use the heat tape. >Unfortunately running water does freeze, and seems to be harder to thaw out >than standing water (just my personal experience / opinion). > > >Thanks, >Bob Ellison > >RE. Ellison >Alternative Energy Systems & Supplies >34642 Countryman Road >Theresa, New York. USA. > 13691-2076 > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Wes Kennedy [mailto:wkennedy at jademountain.com] >Sent: Monday, February 14, 2000 4:32 PM >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Subject: Solution for freezing pipes? [RE-wrenches] > >Howdy List, > >What is the best design practice for dealing with keeping pipes from >freezing. I have a client that has an unheated crawl and exposed >plumbing. Located in High Altitude Colorado. > >Do folks design in heat tape and the pv to run it? >Solar thermal solutions? >Propane fired thermostatically controlled heaters? >Leave the water running? > >thanks! >Wes > > >Wes Kennedy >Evolutionary Technologist > >"Your philosophy is not what you believe, it's how you live!" >-j rubin > >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: > >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >for info contact: > >_____________________________________________________________ >Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! >http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk > > >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: > >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >for info contact: > >_____________________________________________________________ >Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! >http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk "Building a Sustainable World" Wes Kennedy Technical Support/Sales Manager Jade Mountain Inc. 717 Poplar ave. Boulder, CO 80304 voice 800-442-1972 x 3555 or direct line 303-222-3555 fax 303-449-8266 email: wkennedy at jademountain.com web site: www.jademountain.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From ellison at gisco.net Mon Feb 14 17:52:29 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 14:52:29 -0800 Subject: Solution for freezing pipes? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.225597627-951758591-950568749@topica.com> Wes, I will have to find out for sure but I know power draw changes with length. It runs on 117 Volts. At least it gets the job done without the risk of a torch or other dangerous things that we do when stuff goes wrong.... (been there done that) Probably will be going to town tonight so I will try to locate the specs for you. Thanks, Bob Ellison RE. Ellison Alternative Energy Systems & Supplies 34642 Countryman Road Theresa, New York. USA. 13691-2076 -----Original Message----- From: Wes Kennedy [mailto:wkennedy at jademountain.com] Sent: Monday, February 14, 2000 5:41 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: RE: Solution for freezing pipes? [RE-wrenches] What sort of power does this draw? If I wasn't clear before, this is an off grid application...... >Use heat tape (not the cheap stuff) but the silver wire wrapped stuff that >you terminate the end to whatever length you need. Put the tape in a >straight line on the bottom of the pipe Wrap that with fiberglass pipe wrap >and then with Reflectix pipe insulation. Do not squeeze the fiberglass >tightly. If the insulation is not enough to keep it from freezing you can >use the heat tape. >Unfortunately running water does freeze, and seems to be harder to thaw out >than standing water (just my personal experience / opinion). > > >Thanks, >Bob Ellison > >RE. Ellison >Alternative Energy Systems & Supplies >34642 Countryman Road >Theresa, New York. USA. > 13691-2076 > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Wes Kennedy [mailto:wkennedy at jademountain.com] >Sent: Monday, February 14, 2000 4:32 PM >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Subject: Solution for freezing pipes? [RE-wrenches] > >Howdy List, > >What is the best design practice for dealing with keeping pipes from >freezing. I have a client that has an unheated crawl and exposed >plumbing. Located in High Altitude Colorado. > >Do folks design in heat tape and the pv to run it? >Solar thermal solutions? >Propane fired thermostatically controlled heaters? >Leave the water running? > >thanks! >Wes > > >Wes Kennedy >Evolutionary Technologist > >"Your philosophy is not what you believe, it's how you live!" >-j rubin > >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: > >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >for info contact: > >_____________________________________________________________ >Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! >http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk > > >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: > >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >for info contact: > >_____________________________________________________________ >Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! >http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk "Building a Sustainable World" Wes Kennedy Technical Support/Sales Manager Jade Mountain Inc. 717 Poplar ave. Boulder, CO 80304 voice 800-442-1972 x 3555 or direct line 303-222-3555 fax 303-449-8266 email: wkennedy at jademountain.com web site: www.jademountain.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From bill_loesch at compuserve.com Mon Feb 14 19:51:42 2000 From: bill_loesch at compuserve.com (bill loesch) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 16:51:42 -0800 Subject: 24 VDC Statpower et al Was:Todd chargers in 24 VDC systems [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.53144812-951758591-950575902@topica.com> Hi Steve, I have not tried making a 24 volt unit out of my two tc40s[40 amp charger] yet, but that is exactly what Statpower says can be done in their website under technotes/chargers/faq. If you want really heavy duty 3 step charging, selectable for wet, gel, or agm, David Smead / AmplePower offers a 55 amp 12 volt unit which can be series stacked for 24 volts and simultaneously parallel stacked for up to 220 amps. And, if you stored this in the unheated crawl space of one of the other querries I don't think there would be any problem of freezing pipes. Bill Loesch bill_loesch at compuserve.com Saint Louis Solar Saint Louis MO Message text written by INTERNET:RE-wrenches at topica.com >Yes, I suppose just like you did with Todd you could series the Truecharge 40+ to 24 volts, but I have some doubts about their advanced functions and haven't tried it: They do have some cycling where they shut down and follow battery voltage for 5 seconds. I run two parallel and they do that the first time almost simultaneously but the second or third cycles they perform are not quite simultaneous so I suspect big trouble there if used in series. Of course . With center tap connected to battery center tap, it should work. I don't think current differences would be too much either.But I would still like to see 24 volt models and larger amp ratings too. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com< - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From toddcory at jps.net Mon Feb 14 20:32:56 2000 From: toddcory at jps.net (Todd Cory) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 17:32:56 -0800 Subject: Solution for freezing pipes? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.61468901-951758591-950578376@topica.com> I used this same technic on my personal water system (2100 gallon tank on top of a 35 foot steel tower) when I was off grid. To squeeze every bit of efficiency out of those precious watts, insulate the heck out of the pipes with the heat tape inside. (I used the cheap plastic stuff) I used 3 layers of foam pipe insulation each one made for a larger sized pipe to accommodate the previous layer of insulation. Here's the best trick. Most heat tapes have real sloppy thermostats. All you need is 35 degree water and it will not freeze, so I went to Radio Shack and got one of their temperature modules and hooked up a small relay to the alarm output set at 35 degrees. This worked excellent and kept the water liquid and used next to no electricity. To lower the wattage of the tape for slower heating, consider a diode in series with the 120 VAC load. Be well, Todd -- Todd Cory KE6SXS toddcory at jps.net Bald Mountain Solar P.O. Box 689 Mt. Shasta, Ca. 96067 (530) 926-1079 When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. That's my religion. - Abraham Lincoln - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From info at backwoodssolar.com Mon Feb 14 21:15:53 2000 From: info at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey - Backwoods Solar Electric) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:15:53 -0800 Subject: Solution for freezing pipes? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1587126052-951758591-950580953@topica.com> For freeze proofing, it depends on the nature of the house. I have used all the suggestions below where suitable, I realize none of them may apply to the house you are asking about. Heat tape works in larger systems especially when generator back-up is a factor anyway, but can really add up if the pipe runs are long. I really avoid heat tape in favor of more natural energy solutions, where it will work. here are a few I or customers have used: Best to design or change that so the areas with pipes will never freeze, and keep pipes in only interior walls, none against outside. In fact if you get to the customer before its built, plumbing can be done in an accessible closet between kitchen and bath rather than below the floors. But there is always at least that transition from underground up to the floor. For the problem spots where pipe goes from ground to house, I have used DC timer controlled valves if water is plentiful. You can pulse a valve on 1 second every 5 minutes to run a utility sink just enough to give a complete change of water in the exposed pipes. Other customers have ringed the pipe from ground to floor with an insulated cylinder of sheet metal or a cut drum or something and used a muffin fan to push house air down into that small cavity around the pipe. One customer actually insulated a longer runs with a small copper pipe taped to the supply pipe then wrapped well in insulation, and circulated heated water through the small one, again a timer and pump to circulate the hot through the loop about 30 seconds or so out of every 5 or 10 minutes. That's a bigger project but still low energy. But for best security in extreme conditions For DC pumps, I use drainback valves, so when the pump is off the lines drain back out a valve 15 feet down the well (so the whole down pipe isn't drained unnecessarily). Use a normally open DC powered valve, so the drainback closes when pump is powered and opens when pump goes off. For AC pumps you can just remove the check valve in the top of the pump rather than setting up an electric drain valve. Of course pipes have to be properly planned and sloped for that, and have vacuum relief at the highest point. Designed right, this can empty all the supply pipes while leaving pressure or gravity tanks and supply lines all functioning in the home until next fill is needed. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems A catalog business on a mountain 2 miles from utility lines, powered entirely by our catalog products. IF UTILITY POWER IS 1/2 MILE OR MORE FROM YOUR SITE, get our free 160 page solar-electric Planning Guide/Catalog. (Your postal address required - Our list is never given or sold). Phone(208)263-4290 Fax (208) 265-4788 in Idaho, USA ----- Original Message ----- From: Wes Kennedy To: Sent: Monday, February 14, 2000 1:32 PM Subject: Solution for freezing pipes? [RE-wrenches] > Howdy List, > > What is the best design practice for dealing with keeping pipes from > freezing. I have a client that has an unheated crawl and exposed > plumbing. Located in High Altitude Colorado. > > Do folks design in heat tape and the pv to run it? > Solar thermal solutions? > Propane fired thermostatically controlled heaters? > Leave the water running? > > thanks! > Wes > > > Wes Kennedy > Evolutionary Technologist > > "Your philosophy is not what you believe, it's how you live!" > -j rubin > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > > _____________________________________________________________ > Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! > http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Tue Feb 15 02:23:13 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (Sharkey) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 23:23:13 -0800 Subject: Solution for freezing pipes? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.492590352-951758591-950599393@topica.com> Wes; I recommend draining the plumbing at the first sign of freezeing weather. That's what I have done for the last 25 years, works like a charm and uses no energy from your battery bank. Remeber the zen proverbs: Summer- Haul water, chop wood Winter - Chop water, haul wood -S - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From richard.perez at homepower.com Tue Feb 15 13:59:07 2000 From: richard.perez at homepower.com (Richard Perez, Home Power magazine) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 10:59:07 -0800 Subject: Howdy Podners! [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.672444480-951758591-950641147@topica.com> Hello Don Wallingford Welcome aboard the Wrench List! With regards to getting paid for all the up front work. I agree $500 sounds like a good amount to charge and more if there is lots of travel involved to and from the proposed site. Back when I was wrenching, I used to charge $100 for the consumption estimate, site survey, and system design. But systems have grown more complex and larger and what with inflation and all, five bills sounds reasonable to me. I used to apply this fee to the purchase price of the system. Part of this up front work is letting the prospective customer know that you won't install hardware you didn't sell him. Richard ------------------------------------ Richard Perez Home Power PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA Tele: 530-475-3179 FAX: 530-475-0836 Subscriptions: 800-707-6585 mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com Web: http://www.homepower.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From quicksilver at eagle-access.net Wed Feb 16 20:33:29 2000 From: quicksilver at eagle-access.net (Don Wallingford) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 17:33:29 -0800 Subject: A little help from my friends, please... [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1286028044-951758591-950751209@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 2097 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sunmountain at netstep.net Thu Feb 17 10:15:52 2000 From: sunmountain at netstep.net (Larry Brown) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 07:15:52 -0800 Subject: A little help from my friends, please... [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.739150997-951758591-950800552@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 4152 bytes Desc: not available URL: From econnect at snowcrest.net Thu Feb 17 12:40:10 2000 From: econnect at snowcrest.net (Bob-O Schultze) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 09:40:10 -0800 Subject: More Trace unresponsiveness [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.401454701-951758591-950809210@topica.com> Hiya Group, I've been trying to find out as much as I can about the new Trace PS Inverter series before stocking or recommending them. The PS inverters are a lower cost sinewave (actually, Trace's "Mayan Temple" approximation of a sinewave) machine. 2500 Watts, comes in 12V or 24V inputs. It has a new transformer topology, using five instead of three as in the SW series. It has NO user interface except for on/off and maybe LBCO. It comes with more or less the standard SW defaults. You can change the settings only via plugging in a SWRC or SWCA. As it ships now, the thing is a Wrench nightmare. Here's why: In spite of years of telling Trace to give us non-volatile RAM in the SW so the inverter does not revert to factory defaults when you power it down, they STILL won't do it. The PS has no user interface. That means the Wrench will have to set it up in the field (after acquiring an SWRC to add to his list of required tools) and hope to God that the customer never trips the input breaker or powers it down to clean the battery terminals, or ????. Of course, you could just leave the machine at factory defaults. Any of you EVER do that? I never have in all the installations and tech support I've done. If/when a power down occurs, you're in for a service call that Trace won't pay for. You'll also have to answer the question "Why did you sell me this turkey?" before you can charge your customer for a call either. Another, though smaller, wart is the 20W idle draw. No big deal except that the default search mode wattage is set to 48W like the SWs. So you pretty much have to turn it on and leave it on. None of this will make a difference to the deep discounters, they'll just sell the hell out of it for next to nothing and Trace tech help will be even busier then they are now. That business expense will be passed to ALL of us in the form of higher prices and piss poorer response times. What to do? How about an email barrage? It's cheap, easy, and just maybe effective. Since it all seems to boil down to a buck at Trace anymore, shoot it at svanderhoof at traceengineering.com broppenecker at traceengineering.com cfreitas at traceengineering.com I'd really LIKE to think feedback like this will make a difference, but maybe I'm kidding myself. We live in hope. bob-O Bob-O Schultze, Electron Connection PO Box 203, Hornbrook, CA 96044 800.945.7587 fax 530-475-3401 www.electronconnection.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From sunwise at win.bright.net Thu Feb 17 12:44:29 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (sunwise at win.bright.net) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 09:44:29 -0800 Subject: Ed Mazria [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.932410349-951758591-950809469@topica.com> Greetings All, An unusual yet wrenching request. Does anyone know how I could get in touch with Edward Mazria? This solar energy advocate, educator and writer seems to have dropped off the face of the earth and I'm hoping it ain't so. Rodale Press has his last known address as being in Sante Fe. Any help? - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From info at backwoodssolar.com Thu Feb 17 18:03:18 2000 From: info at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey - Backwoods Solar Electric) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 15:03:18 -0800 Subject: More Trace unresponsiveness [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.973238569-951758591-950828598@topica.com> On the Trace PS, we had decided not to use it, because of the gross reduction in features and only slight reduction in price. Therefore I was off-guard this week when a Trace salesman called to try to push these models, telling it was $1500 lower priced than the SW. I finally got him to explain that he was quoting the SW4024 price and comparing the 2500 watt PS series with it. Now that was a real stretch, since there does exist a SW2512 to compare it to. Needless to say he did not make a sale, but I did have opportunity to discuss response times, product availability, slowing of repairs and the often unusable tech dealer "hot"line. It would be nice if Trace worked like they used to, but the direction they are going leaves few hopes. I don't expect any exciting new products, but we can hope the best of the old products can be continued for some time yet. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From aurora at toad.net Thu Feb 17 19:21:48 2000 From: aurora at toad.net (Jason Fisher) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 16:21:48 -0800 Subject: Howdy Podners! [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.788924142-951758591-950833308@topica.com> Hi wrenches, My two cents about the design fee: (sometimes that's about what I made!) Rarely, do I get a prospective client who has not seen Home Power (way to go Richard!) and subsequently, has not read a number of adds for "the lowest price" equipment, "Plug and Play" installation and "personalized" design (thanks Richard! (joke)). As you all well know, obtaining all these things for a client takes allot of work! I haven't figured out the formula for success at this but one point I thought I'd make is that I've found that sometimes its in my best interest to allow the client to order and pay for the solar equipment themselves. Usually I'll do the visit, interview, and design, then give them the equipment list once we've formed a contract for installation and I've received a deposit. This I have found has some benefits to me. It allows the customer to rest assured that they've found the "cheapest price", I'm not explaining why a company is backordered on a crucial piece, I'm not floating the funds or paying the transportation costs, and they get to see how "customer oriented" and "knowledgeable" some of the discount companies are that are out there. The other big benefit I've found, is that when it breaks, there is no question who will have to pay for the service charges (so long as the installation is bulletproof). Of course, I try to get the terms of our relationship set up front, namely that the equipment purchased must be agreed to by me (the designer, installer) and work will not begin unless all the materials have arrived. I only end up doing this with certain clients, particularly when they want to be involved in the process. So far it works when its needed. Of course another approach is T&M. Anybody else have comments? -- Jason Fisher Aurora Energy 86 Conduit St. Annapolis, MD 21401 USA Voice/ Fax: 410-268-3088 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From ellison at gisco.net Thu Feb 17 20:50:37 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 17:50:37 -0800 Subject: More Trace unresponsiveness [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1365690258-951758591-950838637@topica.com> Hello group, Here is some good news to those of us who do not live on the west coast. Trace is setting up service centers around the country, there is one in New Jersey that I am aware of and I understand that more are on the way. This will save me a MINT in freight when something goes wrong with one of their products. Till next time, Bob Ellison RE. Ellison Alternative Energy Systems & Supplies 34642 Countryman Road Theresa, New York. USA. 13691-2076 -----Original Message----- From: Steve Willey - Backwoods Solar Electric [mailto:info at backwoodssolar.com] Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2000 6:03 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Re: More Trace unresponsiveness [RE-wrenches] On the Trace PS, we had decided not to use it, because of the gross reduction in features and only slight reduction in price. Therefore I was off-guard this week when a Trace salesman called to try to push these models, telling it was $1500 lower priced than the SW. I finally got him to explain that he was quoting the SW4024 price and comparing the 2500 watt PS series with it. Now that was a real stretch, since there does exist a SW2512 to compare it to. Needless to say he did not make a sale, but I did have opportunity to discuss response times, product availability, slowing of repairs and the often unusable tech dealer "hot"line. It would be nice if Trace worked like they used to, but the direction they are going leaves few hopes. I don't expect any exciting new products, but we can hope the best of the old products can be continued for some time yet. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From quicksilver at eagle-access.net Thu Feb 17 22:14:56 2000 From: quicksilver at eagle-access.net (Don Wallingford) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 19:14:56 -0800 Subject: Thanks for the help, friends [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.179373619-951758591-950843696@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 3206 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Fri Feb 18 00:02:00 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (Sharkey) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 21:02:00 -0800 Subject: More Trace unresponsiveness [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.221650856-951758591-950850120@topica.com> I, too have mentioned the volatile memory problem with the SW series to several Trace sales associates and technicians without results. It's really a big pain to remember all of the settings when bringing the system back online after a DC power-down. Writing the information down is dandy if you have the time. Last year, I threw all of the AC and DC disconnects after a tree fell and dangled over my power trailer. No time to take readings in 75 MPH wind with 3" diameter branches falling all around! How hard could it be? A small back-up battery to keep the data alive! I think Darren promised to work on a method of down-and-uploading settings via the SWRC. How about it D.C., got that Windows code written yet??? I feel the same way about the E-Meter, too. Why can't we have battery back-up on those as well. Last week, I ran my EV low enough to extinguish the E-Meter display, and I lost all of the AH data. Let's see, how many AH was I down just before it went out? Despite the flaws, these are still two of the most useful and valuable products available. It *would* be nice to see refinements over time, though. -S - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From econnect at snowcrest.net Fri Feb 18 11:25:03 2000 From: econnect at snowcrest.net (Bob-O Schultze) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 08:25:03 -0800 Subject: More Trace unresponsiveness [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.47412534-951758591-950891103@topica.com> Sparks, At least the Emeter DOES have a non resettable memory for the major settings of voltage, A/hr capacity of the batts, display modes, temperature settings, etc. As you say you do lose the actual "point in time" readings when you power down. However, MOST of the time you know you are powering down beforehand and can take the readings if you want. By the way, if you are powering the Emeter from your motive battery and it went THAT low, you gotta figure the batt was at >80% DOD, no? Bob-O > I, too have mentioned the volatile memory problem with the SW series to >several Trace sales associates and technicians without results. It's really >a big pain to remember all of the settings when bringing the system back >online after a DC power-down. Writing the information down is dandy if you >have the time. Last year, I threw all of the AC and DC disconnects after a >tree fell and dangled over my power trailer. No time to take readings in 75 >MPH wind with 3" diameter branches falling all around! > How hard could it be? A small back-up battery to keep the data alive! I >think Darren promised to work on a method of down-and-uploading settings >via the SWRC. How about it D.C., got that Windows code written yet??? > I feel the same way about the E-Meter, too. Why can't we have battery >back-up on those as well. Last week, I ran my EV low enough to extinguish >the E-Meter display, and I lost all of the AH data. Let's see, how many AH >was I down just before it went out? > Despite the flaws, these are still two of the most useful and valuable >products available. It *would* be nice to see refinements over time, though. > > -S > Bob-O Schultze, Electron Connection PO Box 203, Hornbrook, CA 96044 800.945.7587 fax 530-475-3401 www.electronconnection.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From richard.perez at homepower.com Fri Feb 18 12:07:19 2000 From: richard.perez at homepower.com (Richard Perez, Home Power magazine) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 09:07:19 -0800 Subject: Thanks for the help, friends [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.603163793-951758591-950893639@topica.com> COOPERATION! >Larry and Dave, > Thanks for the help with the exercising problem. In this case, >I've told the customer that she will need to start her own generator >once a week or so. It would be good for this particular customer to >get more involved with her system anyway. > The timer idea sounds like a good one. Looks like Steve Willey >offers an electronic timer that would fill the bill smartly. > I'll know from now on to not figure on or promise the generator >-exercising feature with a Trace SW inverter. Gotta just love these >learning curves! > Yeah, you know, it's really nice to be able to get some help in >a timely manner. Thanks. > > What is the antonymn of competition? > > >Regards, > >Don Wallingford > > > Quicksilver Electrical Service > >Frederick, Colo. ------------------------------------ Richard Perez Home Power PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA Tele: 530-475-3179 FAX: 530-475-0836 Subscriptions: 800-707-6585 mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com Web: http://www.homepower.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From wkennedy at jademountain.com Fri Feb 18 12:25:49 2000 From: wkennedy at jademountain.com (Wes Kennedy) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 09:25:49 -0800 Subject: Thanks for the help, friends [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.565706943-951758591-950894749@topica.com> On that note, what are peoples grand strategy for driving this technology mainstream? There is only so much "off the grid " market to be had. How can we make producing your own power renewably, sustainably, as cool as having the biggest SUV on the block? >COOPERATION! > >>Larry and Dave, >> Thanks for the help with the exercising problem. In this case, >>I've told the customer that she will need to start her own >>generator once a week or so. It would be good for this particular >>customer to get more involved with her system anyway. >> The timer idea sounds like a good one. Looks like Steve Willey >>offers an electronic timer that would fill the bill smartly. >> I'll know from now on to not figure on or promise the generator >>-exercising feature with a Trace SW inverter. Gotta just love >>these learning curves! >> Yeah, you know, it's really nice to be able to get some help in >>a timely manner. Thanks. >> >> What is the antonymn of competition? >> >> >>Regards, >> >>Don Wallingford >> >> >> Quicksilver Electrical Service >> >>Frederick, Colo. > >------------------------------------ >Richard Perez >Home Power >PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA >Tele: 530-475-3179 >FAX: 530-475-0836 >Subscriptions: 800-707-6585 >mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com >Web: http://www.homepower.com > >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: > >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >for info contact: > >_____________________________________________________________ >Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! >http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk Wes Kennedy Evolutionary Technologist "Your philosophy is not what you believe, it's how you live!" -j rubin - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From richard.perez at homepower.com Fri Feb 18 12:57:58 2000 From: richard.perez at homepower.com (Richard Perez, Home Power magazine) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 09:57:58 -0800 Subject: RE on grid [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1739547067-951758591-950896678@topica.com> Here are three good marketing ideas to bring RE systems on grid. 1. The power is uninterruptable. 2. The power is of far higher quality than can be purchased from the grid. 3. The power is environmentally green and sustainable. Richard >On that note, what are peoples grand strategy for driving this >technology mainstream? >There is only so much "off the grid " market to be had. > >How can we make producing your own power renewably, sustainably, as >cool as having the biggest SUV on the block? ------------------------------------ Richard Perez Home Power PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA Tele: 530-475-3179 FAX: 530-475-0836 Subscriptions: 800-707-6585 mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com Web: http://www.homepower.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Fri Feb 18 13:15:11 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (Sharkey) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:15:11 -0800 Subject: More Trace unresponsiveness [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.340594655-951758591-950897711@topica.com> Hi Bob-O; Yes the EV was quite low on charge. It hasn't gotten much use for the last three months, as I have been commuting 50 miles each way to a job in Lebanon in my ICE pickup. Added to that is the low temperatures here and I was just finishing up a long, hard run on the freeway. The E-Meter is powered by 18 volts from the traction pack. I'd increase it to 24 v, but that E-Meter you sold me won't dim in low light, and it's too blinding at night on 24v. I need to send it back to Crusing Eqmnt and have that and several other problems corrected. >By the way, if you are powering the Emeter from your motive >battery and it went THAT low, you gotta figure the batt was at >80% >DOD, no? >Bob-O Wes; 1) Bigger tires 2) More seating 3) Tinted windows 4) Mudflaps, grille gaurds, driving lights 5) Crash protection >How can we make producing your own power renewably, sustainably, as >cool as having the biggest SUV on the block? -S - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From solarbeacon at email.msn.com Fri Feb 18 13:18:53 2000 From: solarbeacon at email.msn.com (Bill Roush) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:18:53 -0800 Subject: RE on grid [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1073474303-951758591-950897933@topica.com> On the marketing side, has anyone every successfully used the 10% Federal Commercial Solar Tax Credit and the 5-year accelerated depreciation schedule to sell a system to a home office or small business? Bill Roush Solar Electric Systems of Kansas City, Inc. 13700 W. 108th St. Lenexa, KS 66215 913-338-1939 800-632-9751 913-469-5522fax solarbeacon at email.msn.com www.solarbeacon.com -----Original Message----- From: Richard Perez, Home Power magazine [mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com] Sent: Friday, February 18, 2000 11:58 AM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: RE on grid [RE-wrenches] Here are three good marketing ideas to bring RE systems on grid. 1. The power is uninterruptable. 2. The power is of far higher quality than can be purchased from the grid. 3. The power is environmentally green and sustainable. Richard >On that note, what are peoples grand strategy for driving this >technology mainstream? >There is only so much "off the grid " market to be had. > >How can we make producing your own power renewably, sustainably, as >cool as having the biggest SUV on the block? ------------------------------------ Richard Perez Home Power PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA Tele: 530-475-3179 FAX: 530-475-0836 Subscriptions: 800-707-6585 mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com Web: http://www.homepower.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From sunmountain at netstep.net Fri Feb 18 14:12:19 2000 From: sunmountain at netstep.net (Larry Brown) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 11:12:19 -0800 Subject: Thanks for the help, friends [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.772312732-951758591-950901139@topica.com> Wes, I think the grand scheme to to get people to remember that living here on Earth is a pretty good deal and the only game in town and so we need to pay attention to what we are doing here. The idea that in all of our actions we should consider its impact on the next seven generations was right on the money. If people really understood that and took it to heart then perhaps all this talk about family values would take into consideration that we are all family dancing on a hunk of rock spinning somewhere out in space. The idea of renewable energy and sustainable living is making its way into the mainstream. Let's feed it good compost, let it dance in the sunshine and harvest the fruit. Larry Brown at Sunmountain P.O.Box 1364 Olivebridge, New York 12461 914-657-8096 Sunmountain at netstep.net -----Original Message----- From: Wes Kennedy To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Date: Friday, February 18, 2000 12:25 PM Subject: Re: Thanks for the help, friends [RE-wrenches] >On that note, what are peoples grand strategy for driving this >technology mainstream? >There is only so much "off the grid " market to be had. > >How can we make producing your own power renewably, sustainably, as >cool as having the biggest SUV on the block? > > > >>COOPERATION! >> >>>Larry and Dave, >>> Thanks for the help with the exercising problem. In this case, >>>I've told the customer that she will need to start her own >>>generator once a week or so. It would be good for this particular >>>customer to get more involved with her system anyway. >>> The timer idea sounds like a good one. Looks like Steve Willey >>>offers an electronic timer that would fill the bill smartly. >>> I'll know from now on to not figure on or promise the generator >>>-exercising feature with a Trace SW inverter. Gotta just love >>>these learning curves! >>> Yeah, you know, it's really nice to be able to get some help in >>>a timely manner. Thanks. >>> >>> What is the antonymn of competition? >>> >>> >>>Regards, >>> >>>Don Wallingford >>> >>> >>> Quicksilver Electrical Service >>> >>>Frederick, Colo. >> >>------------------------------------ >>Richard Perez >>Home Power >>PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA >>Tele: 530-475-3179 >>FAX: 530-475-0836 >>Subscriptions: 800-707-6585 >>mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com >>Web: http://www.homepower.com >> >>- - - - - - - >>To send a message to the list use: >> >>To view an archive of previous messages go to: >>> >>To unsubscribe send an email message to: >> >>Hosted by Home Power magazine: >> >>for info contact: >> >>_____________________________________________________________ >>Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! >>http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk > >Wes Kennedy >Evolutionary Technologist > >"Your philosophy is not what you believe, it's how you live!" >-j rubin > >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >for info contact: > >_____________________________________________________________ >Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! >http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From info at backwoodssolar.com Fri Feb 18 14:47:54 2000 From: info at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey - Backwoods Solar Electric) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 11:47:54 -0800 Subject: More Trace unresponsiveness [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1928936430-951758591-950903274@topica.com> Well, the Tri-Metric meter holds your settings, and service is VERY responsive for any questions or problems. That is why I switched about 6 years ago. Trace battery meter is a licensed version of TriMetric, but I am not sure if they kept the memory feature in their adaptation. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems > I feel the same way about the E-Meter, too. Why can't we have battery > back-up on those as well. Last week, I ran my EV low enough to extinguish > the E-Meter display, and I lost all of the AH data. Let's see, how many AH > was I down just before it went out? > Despite the flaws, these are still two of the most useful and valuable > products available. It *would* be nice to see refinements over time, though. > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From info at backwoodssolar.com Fri Feb 18 15:08:10 2000 From: info at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey - Backwoods Solar Electric) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 12:08:10 -0800 Subject: RE on grid [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2051112209-951758591-950904490@topica.com> We used the 10% fed commercial credit several times in installing our own business system. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems > On the marketing side, has anyone every successfully used the 10% Federal > Commercial Solar Tax Credit and the 5-year accelerated depreciation schedule > to sell a system to a home office or small business? > > Bill Roush > Solar Electric Systems of Kansas City, Inc. > solarbeacon at email.msn.com > www.solarbeacon.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From j.lamb at pecorp.com Fri Feb 18 15:59:46 2000 From: j.lamb at pecorp.com (j.lamb at pecorp.com) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 12:59:46 -0800 Subject: RE in both worlds [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.17431422-951758591-950907586@topica.com> For people who have the grid in there back yard anyway I found it cheeper use the microsines for the grid and have a UPS system as standby for power outages. The UPS system uses sealed batteries and is used for essential items like some efficient lights or even an efficient frig. This would provide more money to buy more collectors that produce more power that people who waste can use. On one system I mounted the microsines remotely in the power shed and have a switch that will diconnect the microsines from the solar collectors and feed the 24 volts to a charge controler to a standby sealed battery pack and a small sine wave inverter. This gave me the best of both worlds. This is great for a long power outages and in that case you would go into a super conservation Mode and keeps you independent. I have even used Ice storage for the frig for longer outages and conservation Moods. Since the power profile generated from collectors is much different from house use. I found the hybrid system is cheaper and if you want you can even use things on DC power. I notice that the microsines will cause some radio interfence. I plan to put eveything in condunt. Trace has not got back to me yet on this one. Has anybody ran into this problem? > ---------- > From: Richard Perez, Home Power > magazine[SMTP:richard.perez at homepower.com] > Reply To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Sent: Friday, February 18, 2000 11:57 AM > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Subject: RE on grid [RE-wrenches] > > Here are three good marketing ideas to bring RE systems on grid. > > 1. The power is uninterruptable. > 2. The power is of far higher quality than can be purchased from the grid. > 3. The power is environmentally green and sustainable. > > Richard > > >On that note, what are peoples grand strategy for driving this > >technology mainstream? > >There is only so much "off the grid " market to be had. > > > >How can we make producing your own power renewably, sustainably, as > >cool as having the biggest SUV on the block? > > ------------------------------------ > Richard Perez > Home Power > PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA > Tele: 530-475-3179 > FAX: 530-475-0836 > Subscriptions: 800-707-6585 > mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com > Web: http://www.homepower.com > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > > _____________________________________________________________ > Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! > http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From wkennedy at jademountain.com Fri Feb 18 16:02:10 2000 From: wkennedy at jademountain.com (Wes Kennedy) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 13:02:10 -0800 Subject: Todd power draw [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.397003505-951758591-950907730@topica.com> Hello, With all this discussion of the Todd Power Source, does anybody know how many amps AC the 75 amp model will draw? thanks! Wes Wes Kennedy Evolutionary Technologist "Your philosophy is not what you believe, it's how you live!" -j rubin - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From richard.perez at homepower.com Fri Feb 18 17:16:35 2000 From: richard.perez at homepower.com (Richard Perez, Home Power magazine) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 14:16:35 -0800 Subject: Todd power draw [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1377057508-951758591-950912195@topica.com> Hello Wes We have three and they draw, at max output, between 8.0 and 8.6 Amps at 117 VAC. I suspect that this varies considerably with input AC voltage. Richard >Hello, > >With all this discussion of the Todd Power Source, does anybody >know how many amps AC the 75 amp model will draw? > >thanks! >Wes >Wes Kennedy >Evolutionary Technologist > >"Your philosophy is not what you believe, it's how you live!" >-j rubin > >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: > >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >for info contact: > >_____________________________________________________________ >Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! >http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk ------------------------------------ Richard Perez Home Power PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA Tele: 530-475-3179 FAX: 530-475-0836 Subscriptions: 800-707-6585 mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com Web: http://www.homepower.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From econnect at snowcrest.net Fri Feb 18 20:40:17 2000 From: econnect at snowcrest.net (Bob-O Schultze) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 17:40:17 -0800 Subject: Howdy Podners! [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1189711979-951758591-950924417@topica.com> >Hiya Jason, It's a constant problem. I generally charge a fee ranging from $100-250 (depending on travel time, etc) for the site survey and system design. If they buy the system from EC, then I'll rebate half of that towards the purchase price. If they don't, at least I'm not burned for my time and effort. I DO NOT even try to compete if someone wants to shop around. I make it clear that they are buying ME for tech help and support along with the gear. It's either worth it to them or it ain't. I also rarely install systems purchased elsewhere. That sounds cold, but one extra service call and that's a money loser. Good Luck, Bob-0 >Rarely, do I get a prospective client who has not seen Home Power (way >to go Richard!) and subsequently, has not read a number of adds for "the >lowest price" equipment, "Plug and Play" installation and "personalized" >design (thanks Richard! (joke)). As you all well know, obtaining all >these things for a client takes allot of work! I haven't figured out >the formula for success at this but one point I thought I'd make is that >I've found that sometimes its in my best interest to allow the client to >order and pay for the solar equipment themselves. Usually I'll do the >visit, interview, and design, then give them the equipment list once >we've formed a contract for installation and I've received a deposit. >This I have found has some benefits to me. It allows the customer to >rest assured that they've found the "cheapest price", I'm not explaining >why a company is backordered on a crucial piece, I'm not floating the >funds or paying the transportation costs, and they get to see how >"customer oriented" and "knowledgeable" some of the discount companies >are that are out there. The other big benefit I've found, is that when >it breaks, there is no question who will have to pay for the service >charges (so long as the installation is bulletproof). >Of course, I try to get the terms of our relationship set up front, >namely that the equipment purchased must be agreed to by me (the >designer, installer) and work will not begin unless all the materials >have arrived. I only end up doing this with certain clients, >particularly when they want to be involved in the process. So far it >works when its needed. Of course another approach is T&M. > >Anybody else have comments? >-- >Jason Fisher >Aurora Energy >86 Conduit St. >Annapolis, MD 21401 >USA > >Voice/ Fax: 410-268-3088 > > > > >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: > >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >for info contact: > >_____________________________________________________________ >Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! >http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk Bob-O Schultze, Electron Connection PO Box 203, Hornbrook, CA 96044 800.945.7587 fax 530-475-3401 www.electronconnection.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From falk at investusa.net Fri Feb 18 21:59:29 2000 From: falk at investusa.net (Kenneth C. Falk, CCIM) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 18:59:29 -0800 Subject: RE on grid [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.761443376-951758591-950929169@topica.com> I'm going to use the 10% credit and 5 -yr accelerated depreciation for my own company. Ken Ken C. Falk, CCIM* E-mail: falk at investusa.net Back-up E-mail: kenfalk at hotmail.com Kenneth C. Falk Real Estate Broker, Inc. Commercial, Investment & Industrial Real Estate 1282 Poplar Hill Road Lexington, Virginia 24450-7332 USA (540) 464-3405 Fax: (540) 464-4200 Web site: http://www.investusa.net/ (*Certified Commercial Investment Member) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Roush" To: Sent: Friday, February 18, 2000 1:18 PM Subject: RE: RE on grid [RE-wrenches] > On the marketing side, has anyone every successfully used the 10% Federal > Commercial Solar Tax Credit and the 5-year accelerated depreciation schedule > to sell a system to a home office or small business? > > Bill Roush > Solar Electric Systems of Kansas City, Inc. > 13700 W. 108th St. > Lenexa, KS 66215 > 913-338-1939 > 800-632-9751 > 913-469-5522fax > solarbeacon at email.msn.com > www.solarbeacon.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Perez, Home Power magazine > [mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com] > Sent: Friday, February 18, 2000 11:58 AM > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Subject: RE on grid [RE-wrenches] > > Here are three good marketing ideas to bring RE systems on grid. > > 1. The power is uninterruptable. > 2. The power is of far higher quality than can be purchased from the grid. > 3. The power is environmentally green and sustainable. > > Richard > > >On that note, what are peoples grand strategy for driving this > >technology mainstream? > >There is only so much "off the grid " market to be had. > > > >How can we make producing your own power renewably, sustainably, as > >cool as having the biggest SUV on the block? > > ------------------------------------ > Richard Perez > Home Power > PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA > Tele: 530-475-3179 > FAX: 530-475-0836 > Subscriptions: 800-707-6585 > mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com > Web: http://www.homepower.com > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > > _____________________________________________________________ > Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! > http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk > > > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > > _____________________________________________________________ > Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! > http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From jackwest at alaska.net Fri Feb 18 22:22:22 2000 From: jackwest at alaska.net (Jack D West) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 19:22:22 -0800 Subject: SW volatile memory [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1560061623-951758591-950930542@topica.com> Sharkey, I'm a little surprised that you don't make a record of non default settings when you set up a Trace SW inverter. It only takes a few minutes when you first program the system for your customer, and can save you lots of time later. I write the non default values (in pencil) in the manual next to where the settings are explained. This way the customer can program them himself as I talk him though it over the phone. I also don't have to keep track of settings for every different customer, each has the settings recorded in their own manual. Documentation is an important part of an installation. Respectfully Jack - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From richard.perez at homepower.com Fri Feb 18 22:29:40 2000 From: richard.perez at homepower.com (Richard Perez, Home Power magazine) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 19:29:40 -0800 Subject: SW volatile memory [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.84728738-951758591-950930980@topica.com> Right on, Jack! Richard >Sharkey, > >I'm a little surprised that you don't make a record of non default >settings when you set up >a Trace SW inverter. It only takes a few minutes when you first >program the system for your >customer, and can save you lots of time later. I write the non >default values (in pencil) >in the manual next to where the settings are explained. This way >the customer can program >them himself as I talk him though it over the phone. I also don't >have to keep track of >settings for every different customer, each has the settings >recorded in their own manual. >Documentation is an important part of an installation. > >Respectfully > >Jack ------------------------------------ Richard Perez Home Power PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA Tele: 530-475-3179 FAX: 530-475-0836 Subscriptions: 800-707-6585 mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com Web: http://www.homepower.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Fri Feb 18 23:32:17 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (Sharkey) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 20:32:17 -0800 Subject: Trace Settings [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1223248865-951758591-950934737@topica.com> OK, Point Taken! BUT.... What do you do when the customer is knowledgeable enough to change their own settings and doesn't write them down? For that matter, the settings on my home system change from season to season, and are completely reprogrammed *four times* each June and July when the system is installed at the OCF. We are talking about a sophisticated device here, one that should be fully capable of storing and recalling multiple configurations without scrolling through multiple layers of confusing menus. Fer Cryin Out Loud! What if you had to set the time, date, modem, printers, video, HDD and FDD type, etc every time you shut your computer off and turned it back on? I've seen pocket calculators with better memories than some of the electronics we work with daily in RE. When I crabbed at Vanderhoof last year at the OCF, he told me to put a small gel-cell on the DC input to the Trace to keep it alive during power downs. I think an after-market EPROM memory module with the aforementioned store and recall functions would be a big seller! How many of you would buy one (or more)? Even just being able to dump the data back into the SW with a laptop or PC would be a big improvement. I work with business telephone switches every day that can do this. -S - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From ellison at gisco.net Sat Feb 19 08:11:41 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 05:11:41 -0800 Subject: Trace Settings [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.985185607-951758591-950965901@topica.com> When I crabbed at Vanderhoof last year at the OCF, he told me to put a small gel-cell on the DC input to the Trace to keep it alive during power downs. Unfortunately when you do an equalizing charge the gel-cell will be toast, they can't take the high voltages that we use to equalize a standard lead acid battery. You would need to make it switchable so you could turn it on when you had to power the system down without interrupting the power flow. That's another box and switch, it's probably easier to just write it down and hope that the owner doesn't lose the manual! On a car we used to use the cigarette lighter to backfeed the computer to keep the memory up when we have to disconnect the battery. We could probably do something similar but it will not look good. We need to get Trace to wire it internally for us. Then we could use a Ni-Cad or other similar battery to keep things up when we disconnected the pack. What is the minimum voltage that will keep the memory alive? Does it have to match pack voltage, or will a 9 volt battery do the job? Bob Ellison . - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From solar at eagle-access.net Sat Feb 19 10:13:23 2000 From: solar at eagle-access.net (Drake Chamberlin - Electrical Energy) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 07:13:23 -0800 Subject: Fw: RE LAB [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.151354417-951758591-950973203@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 8725 bytes Desc: not available URL: From indeppower at aol.com Sun Feb 20 09:49:30 2000 From: indeppower at aol.com (indeppower at aol.com) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 06:49:30 -0800 Subject: More Trace unresponsiveness [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.346765453-951758591-951058170@topica.com> In a message dated 2/18/2000 2:48:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, info at backwoodssolar.com writes: << Well, the Tri-Metric meter holds your settings, and service is VERY responsive for any questions or problems. That is why I switched about 6 years ago. >> 00. I second Steve's comments about Tri-Metric meters, they are . I had several experiences with bad product and worse service with Cruising Equipment several years ago. David Palumbo, IP&L - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From indeppower at aol.com Sun Feb 20 09:55:13 2000 From: indeppower at aol.com (indeppower at aol.com) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 06:55:13 -0800 Subject: Todd power draw [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.238933606-951758591-951058513@topica.com> In a message dated 2/18/2000 4:02:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, wkennedy at jademountain.com writes: << With all this discussion of the Todd Power Source, does anybody know how many amps AC the 75 amp model will draw? >> 9 amps at 117vac - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From jackwest at alaska.net Mon Feb 21 03:30:08 2000 From: jackwest at alaska.net (Jack D West) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 00:30:08 -0800 Subject: Trace Settings [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.565072750-951758591-951121808@topica.com> Sharkey, You do make some good points and I agree it would be nice it have non volatile memory, but till we do... When a customer changes settings, or otherwise tinkers with his system and gets himself in trouble that can't be solved over the phone, I make a housecall, and send them a bill. Jack Sharkey wrote: > OK, Point Taken! BUT.... What do you do when the customer is knowledgeable > enough to change their own settings and doesn't write them down? For that > matter, the settings on my home system change from season to season, and > are completely reprogrammed *four times* each June and July when the system > is installed at the OCF. > We are talking about a sophisticated device here, one that should be fully > capable of storing and recalling multiple configurations without scrolling > through multiple layers of confusing menus. Fer Cryin Out Loud! What if you > had to set the time, date, modem, printers, video, HDD and FDD type, etc > every time you shut your computer off and turned it back on? I've seen > pocket calculators with better memories than some of the electronics we > work with daily in RE. > When I crabbed at Vanderhoof last year at the OCF, he told me to put a > small gel-cell on the DC input to the Trace to keep it alive during power > downs. I think an after-market EPROM memory module with the aforementioned > store and recall functions would be a big seller! How many of you would buy > one (or more)? Even just being able to dump the data back into the SW with > a laptop or PC would be a big improvement. I work with business telephone > switches every day that can do this. > > -S > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > > _____________________________________________________________ > Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! > http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From falk at investusa.net Mon Feb 21 07:00:11 2000 From: falk at investusa.net (Kenneth C. Falk, CCIM) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 04:00:11 -0800 Subject: To all Wrenches. [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1827774640-951758591-951134411@topica.com> Jack West (Alaska) just asked me for info on the Federal Tax Credit for solar energy products so that he could apply it to his business. I thought that it would be a good posting to the Wrench List, in case others are interested. The following Web sites are sources of info for State credits as well as the Federal 10% credit and accelerated depreciation. Go to the following Web site and click on the appropriate listing for your State: http://www-solar.mck.ncsu.edu/ For Federal, commercial credit for solar: http://www.seia.org/taxcredi.htm For Federal accelerated Depreciation for solar: http://www.seia.org/legdepre.htm The Federal Dept. of Energy Web site that has the last two Web site addresses is: http://www.eren.doe.gov/millionroofs/dsire.html Hope that that is helpful. Ken Ken C. Falk, CCIM* E-mail: falk at investusa.net Back-up E-mail: kenfalk at hotmail.com Kenneth C. Falk Real Estate Broker, Inc. Commercial, Investment & Industrial Real Estate 1282 Poplar Hill Road Lexington, Virginia 24450-7332 USA (540) 464-3405 Fax: (540) 464-4200 Web site: http://www.investusa.net/ (*Certified Commercial Investment Member) - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Mon Feb 21 10:47:53 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (Sharkey) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 07:47:53 -0800 Subject: 24 volt Todd [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1448647276-951758591-951148073@topica.com> List; After reviewing my Todd schematics, I think I see a way to convert the modules to 24 volts without rewinding the transformers. Anybody want to donate a charger for experimentation, or would you rather wait until I fry my own unit in a test? -S - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From wstahle at slonet.org Mon Feb 21 13:00:01 2000 From: wstahle at slonet.org (wstahle at slonet.org) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 10:00:01 -0800 Subject: RE on grid [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1953657506-951758591-951156001@topica.com> Howdy REnchers, I have been contemplating this also lately and believe that point three below has the most mass appeal, and the other two present opportunities to those with the bucks to solve the "problem" that the grid presents. Richard Perez, Home Power magazine wrote: > Here are three good marketing ideas to bring RE systems on grid. > > 1. The power is uninterruptable. If all is in order, all the time. With hands on owner participation, I believe. > 2. The power is of far higher quality than can be purchased from the grid. This is true. But outside of computer driven uses, who notices ? Even then, who has quantified the program failures attributed to dirty power as opposed to poor programs ? > 3. The power is environmentally green and sustainable. If only "sustainable" was a higher priority than "consumable", The well meaning (and $ limited) consumers would be all over the REality of what is available. So what I've been imaging these last few weeks is some kind of ad campaign (local I assumed, but...) That targets the folks with disposable income and the fancy homes and cars. You know, the ones that flaunt their wealth, and pay dearly for the perception of security . They've got alarm systems in their McMansions, drive the big SUVs for the improved survivability, and , well, they've got bucks. So the trick is to add the solar power plant as another must have for the stock market set.They can brag about how their 4000 sq ft house helps the enviroment by supplementing (or replacing) their power usage with a PV system for back up or grid tied etc. Aargh ! Not what I had in mind as I decided to finally get my contractors license and focus on RE. Yet as l look around the industry, the economy, and the reality of the cost/benefit ratio to the average grid connected customer, it seems to be a viable and defensible option. For most folks, an occasional and unannounced power outage lasting hours or a day and shared by neighbors is hardly justification for a $10,000- $20,000 investment to maintain hot coffee and cold beer. Unless they are sitting on 10-20 Gs and want to see the light- with out fail. So what I am saying is, glossy ads in upscale rags ( dentist trade journal say) or the Wall St Journal to stimulate the haves to have RE, which will stimulate the RE industry which drives economy of scale, and continues to bring RE within reach of more people. It would behoove the big corporate PV players to fund this effort as A) they have the product to sell, and B) they have the capital and bookeeping to fund and write off the costs. Given the acendendacy of market capitalism in these greed stricken times, it would serve to spread the reach of RE. Now if we could just reign in the forces of greed... Wallace Stahle, Future Electric Energy Company, San Luis Obispo, CA. 93406 PS This wrench list is an awsome addition to my education on RE as I am relatively new in the professional aspect, having dabbled for five years prior to jumping in with both feet last year. I've been an electrician for twenty years and this gives new meaning to a trade that specialises in threading ground up mountains (copper ore) through clearcut forest products (buildings). A little gREen wash to cleanse the conscience. Pardon my hand wringing. WS > > > >On that note, what are peoples grand strategy for driving this > >technology mainstream? > >There is only so much "off the grid " market to be had. > > > >How can we make producing your own power renewably, sustainably, as > >cool as having the biggest SUV on the block? > > ------------------------------------ > Richard Perez > Home Power > PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA > Tele: 530-475-3179 > FAX: 530-475-0836 > Subscriptions: 800-707-6585 > mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com > Web: http://www.homepower.com > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > > _____________________________________________________________ > Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! > http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From wkennedy at jademountain.com Mon Feb 21 13:14:16 2000 From: wkennedy at jademountain.com (Wes Kennedy) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 10:14:16 -0800 Subject: RE on grid [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1155442277-951758591-951156856@topica.com> I agree. Imagine the classic New Yorker cartoon: The cocktail party, the fur coats, the butlers. We overhear one snooty lady say to the other..... "Oh, the Johnsons still use grid power...How Gauche!" >So what I've been imaging these last few weeks is some kind of ad >campaign (local I >assumed, but...) That targets the folks with disposable income and >the fancy homes and >cars. You know, the ones that flaunt their wealth, and pay dearly >for the perception of >security . They've got alarm systems in their McMansions, drive the >big SUVs for the >improved survivability, and , well, they've got bucks. Wes Kennedy Evolutionary Technologist "Your philosophy is not what you believe, it's how you live!" -j rubin - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From info at backwoodssolar.com Mon Feb 21 13:55:50 2000 From: info at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey - Backwoods Solar Electric) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 10:55:50 -0800 Subject: RE on grid [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2115622481-951758591-951159350@topica.com> Well I think Y2K gave that affluent market a big kick, and its still rolling along. But personally I am sticking to the customers who need solar energy because they have no other possibility at their site. I have a fear of the others, one that has not come round to bite yet, but I hear them saying "Gosh, now that I have lived with solar for a year, its a neat idea and all, but I never realized how variable the weather would be. Back on the old grid we could use all we wanted to without a thought, but this thing keeps demanding attention to what I use, what I buy, and what my guests do with their light switches. And when something goes wrong I don't always have time to figure it out, but I can't just run that generator all night in this neighborhood. I am going to have my lawyer look into that guy who told me I could live normally with independent power" There are really big bucks out there, but often in the wallet of people who have no idea electricity is even measured as a quantity. I am so thankful there are all the ambitious new solar businesses out there to "mainstream" PV, because it SHOULD be done. But I feel very fortunate that there are still so many remote home solar folks who already know how to conserve and really need solar as their least cost alternative, and that I can still focus on them. I know the "mainstream" market is growing fast because I get more of those inquiries every year, and usually refer them to someone in their area who can give local service and analysis. There will be growing opportunities for people to sell solar into mainstream America, but please be sure those customers get educated along the way and know exactly what they are getting into before taking their bucks. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems From: Wes Kennedy To: Sent: Monday, February 21, 2000 10:14 AM Subject: Re: RE on grid [RE-wrenches] > I agree. Imagine the classic New Yorker cartoon: The cocktail > party, the fur coats, the butlers. We overhear one snooty lady say > to the other..... "Oh, the Johnsons still use grid power...How > Gauche!" > > >So what I've been imaging these last few weeks is some kind of ad > >campaign (local I > >assumed, but...) That targets the folks with disposable income and > >the fancy homes and > >cars. You know, the ones that flaunt their wealth, and pay dearly > >for the perception of > >security . They've got alarm systems in their McMansions, drive the > >big SUVs for the > >improved survivability, and , well, they've got bucks. > > > Wes Kennedy > Evolutionary Technologist > > "Your philosophy is not what you believe, it's how you live!" > -j rubin > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > > _____________________________________________________________ > Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! > http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Tue Feb 22 00:34:05 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (Sharkey) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 21:34:05 -0800 Subject: 24 volt Todd [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1998402252-951758591-951197645@topica.com> Richard; Awww..... Where's your sense of adventure? See any future in aftermarket 24v conversions? How about 48v? I pitched Trace on opening an out-of-warranty repair service, but they were cool on the idea. I've also repaired a number of Heart 1200 watt inverters, both for myself and others. Sure would like to get an in-home business started that didn't require me to travel 50 miles to turn a screw, then drive back. UPS could do all of the commuting for me with such a service business. This stuff does break down now and then, and I assume that non-warranty units are big $$$ to repair at the factory. For example, the 1200 watt Hearts were estimated by the factory at $400, and I did the complete repair with updated components for $125 + shipping. >Rock and roll! I'll wait for the fry test. This would be a great mod >if all the components are up to the job. -S - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From indeppower at aol.com Tue Feb 22 07:15:56 2000 From: indeppower at aol.com (indeppower at aol.com) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 04:15:56 -0800 Subject: 24 volt Todd [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.868504698-951758591-951221756@topica.com> In a message dated 2/21/2000 10:48:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, sharkey at mrsharkey.com writes: << or would you rather wait until I fry my own unit in a test? >> yes - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From indeppower at aol.com Tue Feb 22 07:26:05 2000 From: indeppower at aol.com (indeppower at aol.com) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 04:26:05 -0800 Subject: RE on grid [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.393561852-951758591-951222365@topica.com> In a message dated 2/21/2000 1:56:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, info at backwoodssolar.com writes: << There will be growing opportunities for people to sell solar into mainstream America, but please be sure those customers get educated along the way and know exactly what they are getting into before taking their bucks. >> I second Steve's thoughts. David Palumbo, IP&L - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From wkennedy at jademountain.com Tue Feb 22 12:40:06 2000 From: wkennedy at jademountain.com (Wes Kennedy) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 09:40:06 -0800 Subject: RE on grid [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1037220298-951758591-951241206@topica.com> > ><< There will be growing opportunities for > people to sell solar into mainstream America, but please be sure those > customers get educated along the way and know exactly what they are getting > into before taking their bucks. >> Same thing we do for our off grid customers. Although I am not against making a living at this, my primary motivation is environmental. I don't want to "take their bucks". I want them to quit wasting the planet. Wes Kennedy Evolutionary Technologist "Your philosophy is not what you believe, it's how you live!" -j rubin - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From gosolar at xtra.co.nz Wed Feb 23 07:20:35 2000 From: gosolar at xtra.co.nz (gosolar at xtra.co.nz) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 04:20:35 -0800 Subject: Solar pathway/driveway/garden lighting. [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.548883124-951758591-951308435@topica.com> Here's one I'ld like some input on - has anyone found a good inexpensive RELIABLE pathway/ driveway/ etc self-contained light set-up. The problem appears to be one of reliability with ones like the Primelight. i.e. sell 3, get 2 back within a short amount of time. I know this is not a high profit item, but there seems to be a growing demand for them. Am I chasing my tail on this one.?? Thanks, John Veix Solar Electric Specialists P.O. Box 6302, Christchurch NEW ZEALAND - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From toddcory at jps.net Wed Feb 23 10:10:12 2000 From: toddcory at jps.net (Todd Cory) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 07:10:12 -0800 Subject: Solar pathway/driveway/garden lighting. [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1178682380-951758591-951318612@topica.com> We use the intermatic solar lights. They have 2 models, one with one very bright yellow LED and one with two. They both have 2 A ni-cads. The one with two LEDS is much brighter, but as it has the same small panel (~4 sq. inch) on it's top, it's run time is slightly shorter. On full sun days these units burn brightly for 5-6 hours and that is in the winter. Sometimes when I barely see any solar input on my home system with 24 60 watt PV's these little gems still burn brightly for several hours in the evening after it gets dark. Eagle hard ware has them for about $17.00 each or a box of 4 for about $50.00. Hope this helps, Todd Cory gosolar at xtra.co.nz wrote: > Here's one I'ld like some input on - has anyone found a good inexpensive > RELIABLE pathway/ driveway/ etc self-contained light set-up. > > The problem appears to be one of reliability with ones like the > Primelight. i.e. sell 3, get 2 back within a short amount of time. > > I know this is not a high profit item, but there seems to be a growing > demand for them. Am I chasing my tail on this one.?? > > Thanks, John Veix > > Solar Electric Specialists > P.O. Box 6302, > Christchurch > NEW ZEALAND > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > _____________________________________________________________ > Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! > http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk -- Todd Cory KE6SXS toddcory at jps.net Bald Mountain Solar P.O. Box 689 Mt. Shasta, Ca. 96067 (530) 926-1079 When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. That's my religion. - Abraham Lincoln - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From sunwise at win.bright.net Wed Feb 23 12:28:00 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (Kurt Nelson) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 09:28:00 -0800 Subject: SUV's and the sexy PV sale [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1511490655-951758591-951326880@topica.com> Greetings, I've been thinking a lot about marketing and the mainstream. I don't think marketing PVs with super wide nobby tires, custom mud flaps and a big black bra around the battery box is the way to go (though I'd love to see such a system). The people to whom that would appeal are really into consumption big time and they aren't happy with us selling them on the idea that less is better. We also do not want to end up selling them systems that "don't work", even though they deliver just what they were designed to deliver. The exception may be the "grid-tied and green", those that are keeping up witht he P.C. Jones'. These people are not my primary market though I have done three larger (1k plus) grid-ties in the last year or two. I would agree with Steve in that I would rather focus on helping people who really need basic, reliable power in their lives, as well as those who just really don't want to consume any nuclear energy, etc. So, I made a decision several years ago to leave central Wisconsin and move North to a much more remote area of the State where there was lots of area in need of remote power applications. Here's the problem... Though there is a need up here, there's no money up here. There's lots more folks needing remote power up here but way less cash in this northern neigborhood. Most of my larger installations are a two to six hour drive south and all the jobs I get around here are one to three panel systems that are under sized and NOT a shining example of how well solar works. It is very bad for business from all aspects and a lesson I just can't seem to learn. I find it very difficult to say "no", and I end up helping people put together minimial systems, sometimes with with sub-standard components, I make little or no money on it and then I have MY name on the whole damn thing. An all too typical example -- I got called in on a system recently that has a couple old Siemens panels sorta strapped to a post in the ground with some 12 gauge NM Romex running to two 12 volt batteries on the unheated porch, that for some reason are wired as a dedicated battery and a secondary, switched through an antique open framed 2P2T knife switch. Loads are all low voltage incandescents and a boom box. Load wiring is 12 gauge THHN pairs hung from the walls and ceiling and the switches aren't even in boxes, just nailed to the walls or hung from the fixtures. There is not a single fuse in the entire system. She wants to know if there is anything I can do to make her system work better, but she doesn't have any money to speak of. Am I to say no? If I say no, what good will I have done when her house burns down and is the first solar energy house fire in the State? I am going over there tomorrow to put in some fuses, clean up some wiring, add a meter (NO METER) and three compact flourscent lights. I will make next to nothing on it and have my name on another one of these shitty systems. Does anyone know of a help group out there? Some kinda ten step program? Final plea... go easy on me. I do install some nice, up-to-code systems from time to time. I just gotta drive south to do it, down to where the money is, green and clean. Kurt Nelson SOLutions - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From info at backwoodssolar.com Wed Feb 23 14:33:06 2000 From: info at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey - Backwoods Solar Electric) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 11:33:06 -0800 Subject: SUV's and the sexy PV sale [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1085542765-951758591-951334386@topica.com> I too am concerned with the poverty case PV users. Fact is, there are people with very low incomes and abilities. Are they safer with the inadequate PV system and an old car battery, or where they were before with a bunch of un-maintained kerosene lamps? Since we probably are not able to adjust their incomes, we can at least offer $15 fuses & holders and education on battery safety. Will doing so leave us hanging on liability or is there a way to certify that our input has at least increased safety to the extent the customer could buy? Unfortunately that still won't meet code without several hundred dollars additional boxes and labor that often will not be possible. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems ----- Original Message ----- From: Kurt Nelson To: Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 9:28 AM Subject: SUV's and the sexy PV sale [RE-wrenches] > Greetings, > > I've been thinking a lot about marketing and the mainstream. I don't think > marketing PVs with super wide nobby tires, custom mud flaps and a big black > bra around the battery box is the way to go (though I'd love to see such a > system). The people to whom that would appeal are really into consumption > big time and they aren't happy with us selling them on the idea that less is > better. We also do not want to end up selling them systems that "don't > work", even though they deliver just what they were designed to deliver. > The exception may be the "grid-tied and green", those that are keeping up > witht he P.C. Jones'. These people are not my primary market though I have > done three larger (1k plus) grid-ties in the last year or two. I would > agree with Steve in that I would rather focus on helping people who really > need basic, reliable power in their lives, as well as those who just really > don't want to consume any nuclear energy, etc. So, I made a decision > several years ago to leave central Wisconsin and move North to a much more > remote area of the State where there was lots of area in need of remote > power applications. Here's the problem... Though there is a need up here, > there's no money up here. There's lots more folks needing remote power up > here but way less cash in this northern neigborhood. Most of my larger > installations are a two to six hour drive south and all the jobs I get > around here are one to three panel systems that are under sized and NOT a > shining example of how well solar works. It is very bad for business from > all aspects and a lesson I just can't seem to learn. I find it very > difficult to say "no", and I end up helping people put together minimial > systems, sometimes with with sub-standard components, I make little or no > money on it and then I have MY name on the whole damn thing. An all too > typical example -- I got called in on a system recently that has a couple > old Siemens panels sorta strapped to a post in the ground with some 12 gauge > NM Romex running to two 12 volt batteries on the unheated porch, that for > some reason are wired as a dedicated battery and a secondary, switched > through an antique open framed 2P2T knife switch. Loads are all low voltage > incandescents and a boom box. Load wiring is 12 gauge THHN pairs hung from > the walls and ceiling and the switches aren't even in boxes, just nailed to > the walls or hung from the fixtures. There is not a single fuse in the > entire system. She wants to know if there is anything I can do to make her > system work better, but she doesn't have any money to speak of. Am I to say > no? If I say no, what good will I have done when her house burns down and > is the first solar energy house fire in the State? I am going over there > tomorrow to put in some fuses, clean up some wiring, add a meter (NO METER) > and three compact flourscent lights. I will make next to nothing on it and > have my name on another one of these shitty systems. Does anyone know of a > help group out there? Some kinda ten step program? Final plea... go easy > on me. I do install some nice, up-to-code systems from time to time. I > just gotta drive south to do it, down to where the money is, green and clean. > > Kurt Nelson > SOLutions > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > _____________________________________________________________ > Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! > http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk From wkennedy at jademountain.com Wed Feb 23 15:46:53 2000 From: wkennedy at jademountain.com (Wes Kennedy) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:46:53 -0800 Subject: Windbaron? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2045499293-951758591-951338813@topica.com> Anybody know where to get WindBaron parts and compete gennies? Thanks! Wes Kennedy Evolutionary Technologist "Your philosophy is not what you believe, it's how you live!" -j rubin - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From bob at energyoutfitters.com Wed Feb 23 17:09:59 2000 From: bob at energyoutfitters.com (Bob Maynard) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 14:09:59 -0800 Subject: Windbaron? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.73110189-951758591-951343799@topica.com> Hi Wes, Try Aeromax at 1-888-407-wind. The latest price sheet lists new 750 watt Wind Baron and 500 watt. Bob Maynard, Energy Outfitters Wes Kennedy wrote: > Anybody know where to get WindBaron parts and compete gennies? > > Thanks! > Wes Kennedy > Evolutionary Technologist > > "Your philosophy is not what you believe, it's how you live!" > -j rubin > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > _____________________________________________________________ > Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! > http://www.topica.com/topica20 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From bob at energyoutfitters.com Wed Feb 23 17:47:10 2000 From: bob at energyoutfitters.com (Bob Maynard) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 14:47:10 -0800 Subject: Hydrocoil? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.124291700-951758591-951346030@topica.com> Does anyone know if the "Hydrocoil" stainless steel stove loops are still available? Dan Conroy of Sunshine Systems used to build them. The phone number I have is still answered the Conroy Residence, but they don't return any calls. If anyone happens to have 20 to 24 inch "L" type in stock they want to off, let me know. I need 2 of them. Thanks, Bob Maynard, Energy Outfitters - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From bob at energyoutfitters.com Wed Feb 23 18:02:56 2000 From: bob at energyoutfitters.com (Bob Maynard) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 15:02:56 -0800 Subject: Hydrocoil? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2047712487-951758591-951346976@topica.com> Thanks Michael, Smitty didn't know either. Michael Welch wrote: > At 02:47 PM 02/23/2000 -0800, you wrote: > > >Does anyone know if the "Hydrocoil" stainless steel stove loops are > >still available? Dan Conroy of Sunshine Systems used to build them. > >The phone number I have is still answered the Conroy Residence, but they > >don't return any calls. If anyone happens to have 20 to 24 inch "L" > >type in stock they want to off, let me know. I need 2 of them. > >Thanks, > >Bob Maynard, Energy Outfitters > > You check with Smitty at AAA Solar? Seems that would be a likely source. > > Michael Welch > > ------------------------ > "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." > > Edward Abbey > > Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com > Associate Editor, Home Power magazine > Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance > (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 > > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > _____________________________________________________________ > Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! > http://www.topica.com/topica20 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From joy.anderson at homepower.com Wed Feb 23 19:58:47 2000 From: joy.anderson at homepower.com (Joy Anderson) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 16:58:47 -0800 Subject: UPS system info for HP76 [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.267687266-951758591-951353927@topica.com> Hello Wrenches, We're putting together HP76 and we'd like to print this letter and a response. Anyone out there have any ideas for this guy? Thanks, joy *** _____ Very Small Computer UPS Hi there, I was wondering if you could help me find a UPS system that would accept quasisinewave input. I do a lot of switching around on my system and I would like to have a steady supply of power. If you know of one that would work I would like to buy it from whoever you would suggest and then probably buy a few more for some people that I know that have the same problem. We have tried about three standard ones and even the one that you could adjust the voltage down 12 volts from 120, but they would not recognize the inverter input. Thanks for your help, and look forward to some business. I figured that you guys would know if anyone would. Jerry Lilyerd * lilyerd at ncis.com _____ Joy Anderson Associate Editor, Home Power magazine NAD Certified Sign Language Interpreter joy.anderson at homepower.com Home Power magazine: The Hands-On Journal of Home-Made Power Download each current issue free! www.homepower.com Subscriptions, back issues, books, CD-ROMs: 800-707-6585 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From ellison at gisco.net Thu Feb 24 10:07:51 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 07:07:51 -0800 Subject: UPS system info for HP76 [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.12474428-951758591-951404871@topica.com> Joy, I e-mailed Jerry to see what his loads were as a e-mail to you directly got returned as unknown, below is the note and the response that I received; my thoughts are below . From: "Bob Ellison" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 7:49 PM Subject: Very Small Computer UPS > > Jerry, > Can you give me an idea of what your total loads on the backup systems are? > I gather that you are feeding the computer with inverter power. What is your > battery voltage? Distance from the battery bank? > > Thanks > Bob Ellison Hi Bob The load would be about 300 watts or so, the printers could get shut off and not get crazy My battery voltage is nominal 144v dc and the other systems I would want to help out vary from 12 to 60 volts nominal My distance is Approx 100 feet I think I know what you have in mind, but it's hard to find a very small efficient 144v inverter to just keep hooked up for my computer We'll be in touch, thanks Jerry Bob's response: I believe Exeltech (or another manufacturer) can custom build an inverter in that voltage range, to supply just the computer equipment. That way the only load on that inverter is the computer and you do not have problems when a heavy load hits the main inverter, or your transfer switch lets generator power through the system. You always have conditioned power from the inverter and no problem with sudden changes in power quality caused by outside forces, (water pump, washing machine, toaster, or whatever). I am not sure what "other systems I would want to help out vary from 12 to 60 volts nominal" means! How many different voltages is he running? That's my best quick response. It should isolate the computer and solve his problem. Thanks, Bob Ellison RE. Ellison Alternative Energy Systems & Supplies 34642 Countryman Road Theresa, New York. USA. 13691-2076 315-628-0601 Voice 315-628-5797 Fax > > > > -----Original Message----- From: Joy Anderson [mailto:joy.anderson at homepower.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 7:59 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: UPS system info for HP76 [RE-wrenches] Hello Wrenches, We're putting together HP76 and we'd like to print this letter and a response. Anyone out there have any ideas for this guy? Thanks, joy *** _____ Very Small Computer UPS Hi there, I was wondering if you could help me find a UPS system that would accept quasisinewave input. I do a lot of switching around on my system and I would like to have a steady supply of power. If you know of one that would work I would like to buy it from whoever you would suggest and then probably buy a few more for some people that I know that have the same problem. We have tried about three standard ones and even the one that you could adjust the voltage down 12 volts from 120, but they would not recognize the inverter input. Thanks for your help, and look forward to some business. I figured that you guys would know if anyone would. Jerry Lilyerd * lilyerd at ncis.com _____ Joy Anderson Associate Editor, Home Power magazine NAD Certified Sign Language Interpreter joy.anderson at homepower.com Home Power magazine: The Hands-On Journal of Home-Made Power Download each current issue free! www.homepower.com Subscriptions, back issues, books, CD-ROMs: 800-707-6585 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From econnect at snowcrest.net Thu Feb 24 12:38:14 2000 From: econnect at snowcrest.net (Bob-O Schultze) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 09:38:14 -0800 Subject: SUV's and the sexy PV sale [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.177951602-951758591-951413894@topica.com> Steve and Kurt are right on. It's yet another sad commentary on the haves and have nots. I totally agree with Steve that we are far better off helping folks out by showing them how to use a few inexpensive auto-type fuses than having nothing at all or kerosene or -worse yet- gasoline lanterns. And yes, in this sue happy country of ours, we probably are incurring something of a possible liability, especially those of us with licenses. I think the probability of that is low if you explain carefully to folks what the Code requires, but that the cheap fuses are FAR better than nada and they're on their own if they choose to use them. They DO work, after all. If we let our fear over being sued keep us from doing the right thing by our less fortunate brothers and sisters, then the quasi government bureaucrats and corporate greedheads have won. Screw that. bob-O >I too am concerned with the poverty case PV users. Fact is, there are people >with very low incomes and abilities. Are they safer with the inadequate PV >system and an old car battery, or where they were before with a bunch of >un-maintained kerosene lamps? > >Since we probably are not able to adjust their incomes, we can at least >offer $15 fuses & holders and education on battery safety. Will doing so >leave us hanging on liability or is there a way to certify that our input >has at least increased safety to the extent the customer could buy? >Unfortunately that still won't meet code without several hundred dollars >additional boxes and labor that often will not be possible. > >Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com >Backwoods Solar Electric Systems >----- Original Message ----- >From: Kurt Nelson >To: >Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 9:28 AM >Subject: SUV's and the sexy PV sale [RE-wrenches] > > > > Greetings, > > > > I've been thinking a lot about marketing and the mainstream. I don't >think > > marketing PVs with super wide nobby tires, custom mud flaps and a big >black > > bra around the battery box is the way to go (though I'd love to see such a > > system). The people to whom that would appeal are really into consumption > > big time and they aren't happy with us selling them on the idea that less >is > > better. We also do not want to end up selling them systems that "don't > > work", even though they deliver just what they were designed to deliver. > > The exception may be the "grid-tied and green", those that are keeping up > > witht he P.C. Jones'. These people are not my primary market though I >have > > done three larger (1k plus) grid-ties in the last year or two. I would > > agree with Steve in that I would rather focus on helping people who really > > need basic, reliable power in their lives, as well as those who just >really > > don't want to consume any nuclear energy, etc. So, I made a decision > > several years ago to leave central Wisconsin and move North to a much more > > remote area of the State where there was lots of area in need of remote > > power applications. Here's the problem... Though there is a need up here, > > there's no money up here. There's lots more folks needing remote power up > > here but way less cash in this northern neigborhood. Most of my larger > > installations are a two to six hour drive south and all the jobs I get > > around here are one to three panel systems that are under sized and NOT a > > shining example of how well solar works. It is very bad for business from > > all aspects and a lesson I just can't seem to learn. I find it very > > difficult to say "no", and I end up helping people put together minimial > > systems, sometimes with with sub-standard components, I make little or no > > money on it and then I have MY name on the whole damn thing. An all too > > typical example -- I got called in on a system recently that has a couple > > old Siemens panels sorta strapped to a post in the ground with some 12 >gauge > > NM Romex running to two 12 volt batteries on the unheated porch, that for > > some reason are wired as a dedicated battery and a secondary, switched > > through an antique open framed 2P2T knife switch. Loads are all low >voltage > > incandescents and a boom box. Load wiring is 12 gauge THHN pairs hung >from > > the walls and ceiling and the switches aren't even in boxes, just nailed >to > > the walls or hung from the fixtures. There is not a single fuse in the > > entire system. She wants to know if there is anything I can do to make >her > > system work better, but she doesn't have any money to speak of. Am I to >say > > no? If I say no, what good will I have done when her house burns down and > > is the first solar energy house fire in the State? I am going over there > > tomorrow to put in some fuses, clean up some wiring, add a meter (NO >METER) > > and three compact flourscent lights. I will make next to nothing on it >and > > have my name on another one of these shitty systems. Does anyone know of >a > > help group out there? Some kinda ten step program? Final plea... go easy > > on me. I do install some nice, up-to-code systems from time to time. I > > just gotta drive south to do it, down to where the money is, green and >clean. > > > > Kurt Nelson > > SOLutions > > Bob-O Schultze, Electron Connection PO Box 203, Hornbrook, CA 96044 800.945.7587 fax 530-475-3401 www.electronconnection.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From kelly at alt-energy.com Thu Feb 24 12:41:22 2000 From: kelly at alt-energy.com (Kelly Larson) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 09:41:22 -0800 Subject: Hydrocoil? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.485369666-951758591-951414082@topica.com> Bob, We purchased the last of the Hydrocoils 2 years ago from Dan. They said folks just weren't buying enough of them since the new stoves all are pretty much sealed. We've sold all we had. Maybe someone else out there has stock left over? Kelly Alternative Energy Engineering At 02:47 PM 02/23/2000 -0800, you wrote: >Does anyone know if the "Hydrocoil" stainless steel stove loops are >still available? Dan Conroy of Sunshine Systems used to build them. >The phone number I have is still answered the Conroy Residence, but they >don't return any calls. If anyone happens to have 20 to 24 inch "L" >type in stock they want to off, let me know. I need 2 of them. >Thanks, >Bob Maynard, Energy Outfitters > >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >for info contact: >_____________________________________________________________ >Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! >http://www.topica.com/topica20 > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Thu Feb 24 12:54:55 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (Sharkey) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 09:54:55 -0800 Subject: UPS Sysem info for HP76 [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.147648589-951758591-951414895@topica.com> List; Don't know if anyone has thought about this in conjunction with the request for inverter info, but if the battery voltage is 144 volts, it probably isn't necessary to invert it to AC at all! Just feed it into the computer's power supply and it will do the rest. (Having said this, of course, it would be necsessary to confirm that all of the computers components are run from the OUTPUT side of the power supply, no AC line voltage fans, etc. Also important to check to see if the monitor and other peripherals have switching power supplies). The very first active component in ANY AC-to-DC switching power supply is a bridge rectifier. That's right, they are actually DC-to-DC converters, the AC is unnecessary for their operation. Obviously, there are serious safety concerns with switching the high voltage DC going into a device, but having overcome that and proper fusing, the inverter part of this request is actually a 'phantom load', and nothing but a power drain. Any peripherals in the system (printers, scanners, etc) would have to be powered by switching power supplies themselves, or left off of the system when it is run from DC. As we all know, transformers won't get along well with DC. Hmmm... do I see a subject for a furure HP article?? I have some old 286 computers, maybe I'll plug one of them in to my EV (130 VDC under charge), and see what happens!!! -Smoky from the Pacific Northwest - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From ellison at gisco.net Thu Feb 24 13:18:22 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 10:18:22 -0800 Subject: UPS Sysem info for HP76 [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.963098643-951758591-951416302@topica.com> List members, Looking at running the computer on DC your voltage will reach or exceed around 184 volts when equalizing and 174 when doing a normal charge. I don't think any computer is going to eat that kind of voltage happily....... At least not for long. There are people on this list who have converted stuff in the past, I am NOT one of them. I can't even get a MK 8 regulator to work right..... Maybe I am wrong but it would be a cause for concern. Later, Bob Ellison RE. Ellison Alternative Energy Systems & Supplies 34642 Countryman Road Theresa, New York. USA. 13691-2076 -----Original Message----- From: Sharkey [mailto:sharkey at mrsharkey.com] Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 12:55 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: UPS Sysem info for HP76 [RE-wrenches] List; Don't know if anyone has thought about this in conjunction with the request for inverter info, but if the battery voltage is 144 volts, it probably isn't necessary to invert it to AC at all! Just feed it into the computer's power supply and it will do the rest. (Having said this, of course, it would be necsessary to confirm that all of the computers components are run from the OUTPUT side of the power supply, no AC line voltage fans, etc. Also important to check to see if the monitor and other peripherals have switching power supplies). The very first active component in ANY AC-to-DC switching power supply is a bridge rectifier. That's right, they are actually DC-to-DC converters, the AC is unnecessary for their operation. Obviously, there are serious safety concerns with switching the high voltage DC going into a device, but having overcome that and proper fusing, the inverter part of this request is actually a 'phantom load', and nothing but a power drain. Any peripherals in the system (printers, scanners, etc) would have to be powered by switching power supplies themselves, or left off of the system when it is run from DC. As we all know, transformers won't get along well with DC. Hmmm... do I see a subject for a furure HP article?? I have some old 286 computers, maybe I'll plug one of them in to my EV (130 VDC under charge), and see what happens!!! -Smoky from the Pacific Northwest - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Thu Feb 24 16:01:42 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (Sharkey) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 13:01:42 -0800 Subject: Initial tests, DC powered computers [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.796444302-951758591-951426102@topica.com> Wrenches; For any of you who are interested in further experiments in running PC's on DC, I have a bit more. I have several old power supplies around the shop, and decided to experiment on one this morning. Yes, the AC is converted to DC right off, but there is also a 115/230 volt switch that connects a voltage doubler circuit in the 115 position. The bus voltage (what the power supply uses to convert to +12, +5, etc) is 326 volts DC when the PS is supplied 120v grid voltage with the switch in the 115v position. Bus voltage when supplied 120v grid voltage with the switch in the 230v position is about 124v, and +12 & +5 output voltages were normal. The voltage doubler is an AC device and won't work with DC. This caused me some initial concern, as I figured that it would fail miserably under load. What the hey.... It's an old supply, let's just smoke it. Set the switch to 230v, power it up and try it. Applying a 10 amp load to the +5 output didn't do a thing to the bus voltage or the +12 & +5 output voltages. The supply just seemed to work normally. Of course, further testing under full load conditions is warranted, and another next step will be to feed it some DC, and then see if it will boot a motherboard. I think it's safe to say that "overvoltage" isn't going to be a problem, and "undervoltage" is something less than 120 VDC. Will it overheat, blow up after a few hours or have a shorter life span with DC? Don't know yet. A word about monitors. I realized that even if a monitor uses a switching power supply, the automatic degaussing coil around the picture tube will need to be disconnected, as it is run from AC and would probably fail AND cause your screen to look putrid if it even sniffed some DC. More later on this, I have access to some semi-functional monitors that I can rip into and torture. Let me know if any of you are actually interested in continuing this topic. While it *is* fun to play with dynamite knowing I won't suffer any catastrophic losses, I could be doing something else useful, like housework... -S - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From quicksilver at eagle-access.net Thu Feb 24 18:46:56 2000 From: quicksilver at eagle-access.net (Don Wallingford) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 15:46:56 -0800 Subject: The Robin Hood Theory of REconomics [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1480183572-951758591-951436016@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 2405 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Thu Feb 24 19:29:20 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (Sharkey) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 16:29:20 -0800 Subject: More Info (than you wanted) [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.755044073-951758591-951438560@topica.com> List; I've come to the conclusion that PC power supplies are designed to be run from 230 VAC, and will also run from 115 volts with the assistance of the 'voltage doubler' circuit. First, a correction, my last mail indicated that the bus voltage at 115 v with the voltage selector in 230 v (doubler 'off') was 124 volts DC, when in fact it is 164 volts. This makes the lower limit change quite a bit I think. Next test was to connect the PS to the battery bank in my EV, 18 series-connected T-105's, for a total of 118 volts (about an amp of charge current flowing). A small spark as the capacitors charged, then nothing. No fan, no output. I checked my connection and tried again. Nothing continued to happen. Then I pulled the charge disconnect, open circuiting my 8 series-connected PV's. Connected the PV's at 166 volts to the PS, and it came to life. Bus voltage, 158v. The moral of the story, OK to run your PC on DC, but you'd better have a really high-voltage system! I'll continue to watch for a power supply that runs exclusively on 115v, as this may have a lower bus voltage, and may be able to run on a system with a more reasonable voltage system. -S - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From aurora at toad.net Thu Feb 24 19:58:46 2000 From: aurora at toad.net (Jason Fisher) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 16:58:46 -0800 Subject: The Robin Hood Theory of REconomics [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.573714400-951758591-951440326@topica.com> Comrades, I agree with allot of the discussion I've read on Sexy Solar Sales here on the list. I would though, like to add a few thoughts. Being a working class guy living and selling solar in an affluent area of DC, Maryland, and Virginia which already has too many houses and a very reliable utility grid, I've had some revelations. First off I've learned to never ask why someone wants solar, usually if I do I run the danger of talking them out of it! Not because I want to but because my ideas of pros and cons may be way different from theirs. I think I've had it all from survivalists, materialists, braggers, engineers, to (thank god) some ecologists. Allot of them have been grid tied and are not used to watching their consumption but once they get their system connected, they all suddenly want to see that meter spin backwards! This always leeds to more discussions on efficiency, conservation, alternatives, etc. I witnessed one Y2K couple turn into some of the greenest people I ever worked for, simply because they wanted to have every convenience when the power went out. They loved their new washer, frig, sun oven, LEDs, Baygen etc. (Real Goods loved them too!), and they got an education in RE with their PV system. Yes its true that these systems may be a luxury item for the "upper middle class", and they may not be doing it solely because they understand the impact that our energy production and consumption has on our environment but I soon realized, I don't care. I know why I'm doing it, and I'm glad to be getting more PV out there. In my opinion PV and thermal panels should be as common to a house as skylights and sun rooms, because why do people put these things in? Simply because they want to. When was the last time you heard someone doing a cost analysis of building a garage? Let's see, how much will they save in car washing costs, or how much more productive will they be at work if they don't have to scrape off the frost in the morning?. I've found that if someone has an interest, its easy to talk about the positives of RE. I firmly agree, however, that it is our responsibility to not sell systems by making false promises of performance. I always point out its limitations (usually after I've installed it! (joke)). To get RE in the mainstream, we have to let the mainstream be the mainstream (so its not "Alternative" energy anymore). They'll come around eventually. -- Jason Fisher Aurora Energy 86 Conduit St. Annapolis, MD 21401 USA Voice/ Fax: 410-268-3088 email: aurora at toad.net - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From solar at eagle-access.net Fri Feb 25 13:31:04 2000 From: solar at eagle-access.net (Drake Chamberlin - Electrical Energy) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 10:31:04 -0800 Subject: RE TEST LAB - EXPERIMENT 1 [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.276455013-951758591-951503464@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 6280 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gosolar at win.bright.net Fri Feb 25 14:26:27 2000 From: gosolar at win.bright.net (G.N. Solar) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 11:26:27 -0800 Subject: The Robin Hood Theory of REconomics [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.193211456-951758591-951506787@topica.com> Hello Wrenches: Chris LaForge here from WI. (Great Northern Solar, 10+ in the biz, full service RE dealer, BOD MREA, Instructor MREI, etc...) In responce to Don Wallingford's design fee issue I toss in the following: Design fees are great if you can get them. 150-250 is usually not balked at + travel expences,...but this does not pay for much. It is a handy way to make sure clients are serious. It may be difficult to get 300-500 but I do feel the service is valuable. This and $1.25 US will get you a decent cup of JOE! In adddition I must say that -Don Wallingford's Robin Hood theory is something that may be happening quite alot. I know several of us out here that break with "GOOD BUSINESS PRACTICE" and work a varying rates...this does present some ethical problems but nothing that some good... thought can take care of. Being judgemental of other peoples way of living leaves us open to real criticism and alienates us from people who may benefit from rubbing elbows with truely conservative folks like ...me (I am a founding member of the Truely Conservative Realist Party TCRP). I have been able to work with some very well off folks that wanted green power and they can really put up serious ammounts of capacity and help others less fortunate find RE-Robin Hoods that have not starved to death. Energetically, Chris LaForge Great Northern Solar 77450 Evergreen Road, Suite #1 Port Wing, WI 54865 715-774-3374 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From econnect at snowcrest.net Fri Feb 25 15:49:24 2000 From: econnect at snowcrest.net (Bob-O Schultze) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 12:49:24 -0800 Subject: RE TEST LAB - EXPERIMENT 1 [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.171988325-951758591-951511764@topica.com> >Dear Drake and Don, Good Show! I generally use a GOOD QUALITY welding cable for all my installations. It's Essex Excelene, rated from +105C to -50C 600V, but not UL. I use a heavy duty crimp lug and glue filled heat shrink to seal it. I've never had a problem or failure of any kind. I do have some UL listed 427 strand stuff marked RHH/RHW/USE 600V in 2/0 and 4/0 on hand in case I HAVE to use it, but it's about $1.50 more per ft (4/0) and I just can see how the performance difference could possibly be different. We're running what, 60VDC MAX thru the stuff? That's a 10X safety factor and the stuff is DESIGNED to spend its whole life living in a sparks shower and being dragged across cement floors in welding shops. For crying out loud... Finely stranded wire is absolutely a necessity for inverter cables. You might get by with THHN for battery interconnects, but why fight with it? I came behind a system once where the installer ran 4/0 THHN from the battery, thru a 6x6 chase, up into the Trace disconnect, and into the breaker. Unfortunately, I had to disassemble this mess. Thought I'd break an arm getting it out of there. No THHN for me, thanks. Keep up the super work. Bob-O >QUESTIONS FOR WRENCHES > > So far, the only parameter that we have been able to come up >with that is unique for battery compartments is acid resistance. Do >any Wrenches know of other parameters that may be important? > > Traditionally, battery and inverter cables have been of the >finely stranded variety. (2/0 Hypalon Diesel Locomotive cable has >427 strands). In the past, before inspectors wanted to be involved >with RE systems, I (Drake) had used 2/0 THHN in certain >installations, which has 19 strands (according to NEC Table 8). >This cable seemed to work fine. Where it needed bending, I would >pre bend it to avoid stress on terminals. I have never tried to put >THHN inside of a Trace disconnect enclosure, but imagine that it >would be difficult. Does anyone feel that using finely stranded >cable is (or is not) necessary? > > What other types of cable should we be testing? > > Any information about success or problems with the use of >various cable for battery interconnect would be appreciated. >Especially important, has anyone had problems with using welding >cable in association with battery banks? Does anyone have evidence >indicating that welding cable is adequate? > >THE LAB'S MISSION > > This lab is dedicated to determining what is technically >necessary for safe renewable energy systems. Our hope is to find >ways to eliminate unnecessary expenditures, to allow for more people >to be able to afford these systems. > > > Sincerely, > > > >Drake Chamberlin > > Electri >cal Energy > (303) 399-1025 > > Don >Wallingford > >Quicksilver Electrical Service > (303) 833-4214 Bob-O Schultze, Electron Connection PO Box 203, Hornbrook, CA 96044 800.945.7587 fax 530-475-3401 www.electronconnection.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From solar at eagle-access.net Fri Feb 25 17:46:33 2000 From: solar at eagle-access.net (Drake Chamberlin - Electrical Energy) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 14:46:33 -0800 Subject: RE TEST LAB - EXPERIMENT 1 - BOB-O [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1020486959-951758591-951518793@topica.com> Dear Bob-O, Thanks for your input on the welding cable issue, and for your encouragement. It is good to hear that the "listed cable" issue is not being pushed in your area. I (Drake) first learned about the issue several years ago after doing a job at a ski cabin hundreds of miles from home at an elevation of 11,300 feet. We had a grueling trip to the location in a blizzard, via snow mobile. It was a great relief when the project was completed. A month or so later, the owner finally got an inspector to the location. The state inspector busted the job on the battery interconnects. He had been reading a manual from "The Solar Guru," he explained to my customer. The cables were good quality, made of welding cable and purchased from a national distributor. It took many hours on the phone to find acceptable cable at that time. Fortunately the customer was cooperative and understanding. But who needs all that extra stress? If you want to send in a 2" piece of your welding cable insulation, we will give it the acid test. It can be sent to: EECC 1412 Steele St. #202 Denver, CO 80206-2520 We could send a proposal to the NEC for a change of wording, that would allow welding cable to be used in battery enclosures. It will probably take until the 2005 code to get it officially changed. The current reading is: "Flexible cables, as identified in Article 400, in sizes No. 2/0 and larger shall be permitted within the battery enclosure from battery terminals to nearby junction box where they shall be connected to an approved wiring method......" Possible proposed change: Flexible cables, as identified in Article 400 "and suitable welding cable," in sizes No. 2/0 and larger shall be permitted within the battery enclosure from battery terminals to nearby junction box where they shall be connected to an approved wiring method....... We would probably be more specific as to types of welding cable and may want to request a more extensive change of wording. Other types of cable may be added to the list. Drake Chamberlin Don Wallingford ---- Original Message ----- From: Bob-O Schultze To: Sent: Friday, February 25, 2000 1:49 PM Subject: Re: RE TEST LAB - EXPERIMENT 1 [RE-wrenches] > >Dear Drake and Don, > > Good Show! > I generally use a GOOD QUALITY welding cable for all my > installations. It's Essex Excelene, rated from +105C to -50C 600V, > but not UL. I use a heavy duty crimp lug and glue filled heat shrink > to seal it. I've never had a problem or failure of any kind. I do > have some UL listed 427 strand stuff marked RHH/RHW/USE 600V in 2/0 > and 4/0 on hand in case I HAVE to use it, but it's about $1.50 more > per ft (4/0) and I just can see how the performance difference could > possibly be different. We're running what, 60VDC MAX thru the stuff? > That's a 10X safety factor and the stuff is DESIGNED to spend its > whole life living in a sparks shower and being dragged across cement > floors in welding shops. For crying out loud... > Finely stranded wire is absolutely a necessity for inverter cables. > You might get by with THHN for battery interconnects, but why fight > with it? > I came behind a system once where the installer ran 4/0 THHN from the > battery, thru a 6x6 chase, up into the Trace disconnect, and into the > breaker. Unfortunately, I had to disassemble this mess. Thought I'd > break an arm getting it out of there. No THHN for me, thanks. > Keep up the super work. > Bob-O > > >QUESTIONS FOR WRENCHES > > > > So far, the only parameter that we have been able to come up > >with that is unique for battery compartments is acid resistance. Do > >any Wrenches know of other parameters that may be important? > > > > Traditionally, battery and inverter cables have been of the > >finely stranded variety. (2/0 Hypalon Diesel Locomotive cable has > >427 strands). In the past, before inspectors wanted to be involved > >with RE systems, I (Drake) had used 2/0 THHN in certain > >installations, which has 19 strands (according to NEC Table 8). > >This cable seemed to work fine. Where it needed bending, I would > >pre bend it to avoid stress on terminals. I have never tried to put > >THHN inside of a Trace disconnect enclosure, but imagine that it > >would be difficult. Does anyone feel that using finely stranded > >cable is (or is not) necessary? > > > > What other types of cable should we be testing? > > > > Any information about success or problems with the use of > >various cable for battery interconnect would be appreciated. > >Especially important, has anyone had problems with using welding > >cable in association with battery banks? Does anyone have evidence > >indicating that welding cable is adequate? > > > >THE LAB'S MISSION > > > > This lab is dedicated to determining what is technically > >necessary for safe renewable energy systems. Our hope is to find > >ways to eliminate unnecessary expenditures, to allow for more people > >to be able to afford these systems. > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > >Drake Chamberlin > > > > Electri > >cal Energy > > (303) 399-1025 > > > > Don > >Wallingford > > > >Quicksilver Electrical Service > > (303) 833-4214 > > Bob-O Schultze, Electron Connection > PO Box 203, Hornbrook, CA 96044 > 800.945.7587 fax 530-475-3401 > www.electronconnection.com > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > _____________________________________________________________ > Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! > http://www.topica.com/topica20 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From quicksilver at eagle-access.net Fri Feb 25 17:59:10 2000 From: quicksilver at eagle-access.net (Don Wallingford) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 14:59:10 -0800 Subject: More RE on-reid [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.922132445-951758591-951519550@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 1360 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ellison at gisco.net Fri Feb 25 19:27:53 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 16:27:53 -0800 Subject: RE TEST LAB - EXPERIMENT 1 [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1701011144-951758591-951524873@topica.com> Does anybody happen to know who this fellow "The Solar Guru" happens to be? I question whether submerging the insulation in battery acid will do anything but destroy the insulation. I think it will just swell and (for the lack of a better word) get "rubbery". But, please don't stop, the results will be interesting. I am willing to bet that UL listed $6.50 per foot cable will NOT hold up any better than a good welding cable. The occasional drop of acid and constant acid vapor is probably more realistic, but who wants to boil a battery for that long, in a closed box? I think corrosion resistance is one of the qualities they are going for, why else would each individual strand be plated? Keep up the good work, Bob Ellison - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From i2p at aol.com Sat Feb 26 13:59:08 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (i2p at aol.com) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 10:59:08 -0800 Subject: RE TEST LAB - EXPERIMENT 1 [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.689332331-951758591-951591548@topica.com> In a message dated 02/25/2000 10:31:59 AM Pacific Standard Time, solar at eagle-access.net writes: << Does anyone have evidence indicating that welding cable is adequate? >> Based on my own field experience I can document many systems that were installed with welding cable without any problems. Some of these systems are over 15 years old. Thanks to those putting energy on this. Best, Don Loweburg - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From quicksilver at eagle-access.net Sat Feb 26 15:11:29 2000 From: quicksilver at eagle-access.net (Don Wallingford) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 12:11:29 -0800 Subject: Who's Who? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1433926932-951758591-951595889@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 5918 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Sun Feb 27 00:55:52 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (Sharkey) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 21:55:52 -0800 Subject: Who's Who? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1185139895-212058698-951630952@topica.com> Hi Don; We did the Who's Who thing back in November, but that doesn't help new arrivals much. What is needed is an archive where we can post the introductions, photos and links so that we need not repeat the mailing of this information every time the list gets a new member. I belong to a couple of other lists that are hosted on ONElist , and there is a 'members' list, with stats, addresses, etc, an archives area with all of the past messages (Topica does have this), and a 'files' area, with a modest 2Mb storage space for members web pages, photos, etc, more than enough for some detailed introductions. As we are already here on Topica, and I doubt that Michael will want to go through the pains of changing the list to a new service, I'll volunteer to post the intro's on my server, but only if I hear back from those of you who wish to be listed, and of course, if Michael approves. I do still have the intros from last Nov, and can post them right away. I'll also accept (small) images, your face, your logo, your favorite installation, and can include a link to your web page, etc. These won't be fancy web pages unless someone else wants to write them for me to post. Let me know if this has any appeal... -S - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From jackwest at alaska.net Mon Feb 28 03:14:19 2000 From: jackwest at alaska.net (Jack D West) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 00:14:19 -0800 Subject: welding cable [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.293759802-212058698-951725659@topica.com> Don, I have not had any problems with welding cable in battery installations after 8 years of using it. I have replaced batteries in systems up to 15 years old that had welding cable interconnects and these cables seemed fine also. I generally could reuse them if the lugs were not corroded. Jack i2p at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 02/25/2000 10:31:59 AM Pacific Standard Time, > solar at eagle-access.net writes: > > << Does anyone have evidence indicating that welding cable is adequate? >> - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From econnect at snowcrest.net Mon Feb 28 11:07:11 2000 From: econnect at snowcrest.net (Bob-O Schultze) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 08:07:11 -0800 Subject: welding cable [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1364758380-212058698-951754031@topica.com> Don, Drake, Etal, OK, I'm sending you out a piece of the UL and non-UL stuff today. I tend to agree with Bob Ellison that the "acid test" doesn't necessarily tell us much, but am at a loss as to what other tests to do EXECPT for voltage leakage through the insulation. It's fairly ridiculous anyway. While a "paper electrician" seeking to justify has paycheck might make a case for inverter to battery cables, the batteries themselves are not required to be UL listed. If the manufacturer chooses to provide interconnects (bussbar, etc) it probably meets Code. Yet if you use any other non UL wire or copper bussbar for series/parallel interconnects, it does not? Absurd. Again, it all boils down to using quality gear. I've seen imported, UL listed, receptacles and switches that weren't worth the effort it took to throw them in the trashbin. So have y'all. Best, bob-O Bob-O Schultze, Electron Connection PO Box 203, Hornbrook, CA 96044 800.945.7587 fax 530-475-3401 www.electronconnection.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From michael.welch at homepower.com Mon Feb 28 12:05:26 2000 From: michael.welch at homepower.com (Michael Welch) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 09:05:26 -0800 Subject: Who's Who? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1324501155-212058698-951757526@topica.com> At 12:11 PM 02/26/2000 -0800, you wrote: >1). Should there be a list of who is on the list? Including what information? Hi there Don and everyone. Unfortunately, the way the list system stores addresses did not allow me to include any info other than the email address itself. However, I have strongly requested that Topica add this feature. That said, early on many subscribers put up short bios about themselves. You can read the archives of the Wrench list on the web at http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/read Michael Welch ------------------------ "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." Edward Abbey Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com Associate Editor, Home Power magazine Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From michael.welch at homepower.com Mon Feb 28 12:05:31 2000 From: michael.welch at homepower.com (Michael Welch) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 09:05:31 -0800 Subject: Who's Who? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1603131260-951758591-951757531@topica.com> At 09:55 PM 02/26/2000 -0800, you wrote: > We did the Who's Who thing back in November, but that doesn't help new >arrivals much. What is needed is an archive where we can post the >introductions, photos and links so that we need not repeat the mailing of >this information every time the list gets a new member. > I belong to a couple of other lists that are hosted on ONElist >, and there is a 'members' list, with stats, >addresses, etc, an archives area with all of the past messages (Topica does >have this), and a 'files' area, with a modest 2Mb storage space for members >web pages, photos, etc, more than enough for some detailed introductions. > As we are already here on Topica, and I doubt that Michael will want to go >through the pains of changing the list to a new service, I'll volunteer to >post the intro's on my server, but only if I hear back from those of you >who wish to be listed, and of course, if Michael approves. I do still have >the intros from last Nov, and can post them right away. I'll also accept >(small) images, your face, your logo, your favorite installation, and can >include a link to your web page, etc. These won't be fancy web pages unless >someone else wants to write them for me to post. > Let me know if this has any appeal... I think this is a good idea. Go for it. Michael Welch ------------------------ "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." Edward Abbey Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com Associate Editor, Home Power magazine Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From vtsolar1 at together.net Mon Feb 28 18:30:54 2000 From: vtsolar1 at together.net (kirk) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 15:30:54 -0800 Subject: service contracts [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1801830987-951758591-951780654@topica.com> Hello everywrench, I am debating the merits of offering service contracts to my existing customers, above and beyond my initial workmanship and factory warrantees. I'm sure some of you offer them, and I'm wondering how you establish a yearly fee, what that fee includes(parts, labor, travel, ect.), and the fine print of what the contract covers and what it doesn't. Do service contracts bring in new business or establish "baseline" revenue? How often might or do contracts burn you financially if a system turns to require multiple service calls? Ect. thanks, Kirk Herander, Vt. Solar - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From bill_loesch at compuserve.com Mon Feb 28 19:34:05 2000 From: bill_loesch at compuserve.com (bill loesch) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 16:34:05 -0800 Subject: Earth Day Plans? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1406813789-951758591-951784445@topica.com> Hi RE List, Is anybody participating in Earth Day, Saturday 22 April 00? I for one, would appreciate any informational, educational or promotional ideas. Thanks, Bill Loesch bill_loesch at compuserve.com St Louis Solar St Louis MO - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From solar at eagle-access.net Mon Feb 28 22:37:11 2000 From: solar at eagle-access.net (Drake Chamberlin - Electrical Energy) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 19:37:11 -0800 Subject: Thanks for the data [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1755906479-951758591-951795431@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 3492 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ozsolar at ipa.net Tue Feb 29 09:05:06 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell) Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 06:05:06 -0800 Subject: Earth Day Plans? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.258682430-951758591-951833106@topica.com> Bill, I thought I would try to have some sort of event but never got around to any planning for it. Thanks for reminding me. I was very excited about Earth Day 2000 last year after I heard NPR do a big report on how it was going to focus on RE but that was the last I heard of it. Maybe I'll have an open house here at my shop. While I'm on this subject do any other Wrenches have seminars or workshops? I have often thought of it as a great way to save a bunch of my time and better qualify leads. Drake and Don, Keep up the good work on battery cable testing! I've used welding cable for years and haven't had any problems. Like Bob-O I use the Essex ExCELENE and find it to be a very high quality welding cable that is very reasonably priced. Travis Creswell Ozark Solar Neosho, MO ---------- >From: bill loesch >To: "INTERNET:RE-wrenches at topica.com" >Subject: Earth Day Plans? [RE-wrenches] >Date: Mon, Feb 28, 2000, 6:34 PM > >Hi RE List, > >Is anybody participating in Earth Day, Saturday 22 April 00? > >I for one, would appreciate any informational, educational or promotional >ideas. > >Thanks, > >Bill Loesch >bill_loesch at compuserve.com >St Louis Solar >St Louis MO >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: > >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >for info contact: >_____________________________________________________________ >Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! >http://www.topica.com/topica20 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From ellison at gisco.net Tue Feb 29 09:30:10 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison) Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 06:30:10 -0800 Subject: welding cable [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.118075727-951758591-951834610@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 5448 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solar at eagle-access.net Tue Feb 29 10:25:33 2000 From: solar at eagle-access.net (Drake Chamberlin - Electrical Energy) Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 07:25:33 -0800 Subject: welding cable [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1837895612-951758591-951837933@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 8901 bytes Desc: not available URL: From econnect at snowcrest.net Tue Feb 29 11:20:46 2000 From: econnect at snowcrest.net (Bob-O Schultze) Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 08:20:46 -0800 Subject: Thanks for the data [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.453522018-951758591-951841246@topica.com> I think a Megger would be exactly the right tool for the job. bob-O >Would a Megar be the right tool for the job? It would certainly be >overkill when trying to determine if the cable is adequate for a low >voltage system. - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From ellison at gisco.net Tue Feb 29 11:36:53 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison) Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 08:36:53 -0800 Subject: welding cable [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.844756354-951758591-951842213@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 10788 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solarbeacon at email.msn.com Tue Feb 29 11:50:26 2000 From: solarbeacon at email.msn.com (Bill Roush) Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 08:50:26 -0800 Subject: welding cable [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.229572261-951758591-951843026@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 1042 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wstahle at slonet.org Tue Feb 29 12:21:51 2000 From: wstahle at slonet.org (wstahle at slonet.org) Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 09:21:51 -0800 Subject: Earth Day Plans? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1381627290-951758591-951844911@topica.com> Howdy Bill and Wrenches I am planning on taking my Solar energy trailer to the Earth Day event in downtown San Luis Obispo for show and tell, as well as powering up the stage. The catch is I am still working on it and not sure which inverter to go with as far as avoiding audio buzz goes. I am sitting on a U2512 ( a buzz box ) and a 24v XP1100. So I am torn between capacity and sine wave quality. I am willing to install a SW in it but curious if it is noise free in ALL sound systems. Any negative encounters out there with the SW and stage equipment? I suspect the Prosine would be the best for capacity and waveform but want to become more intimate with the day to day reality of the SW as it is most prevalent. One idea is for you to put together a small rolling system on a cart, wheelbarrow, or pickup truck and let folks see how easy (hee hee) it is to turn sunlight into 120 volts. Good luck, Wallace Stahle bill loesch wrote: > Hi RE List, > > Is anybody participating in Earth Day, Saturday 22 April 00? > > I for one, would appreciate any informational, educational or promotional > ideas. > > Thanks, > > Bill Loesch > bill_loesch at compuserve.com > St Louis Solar > St Louis MO > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > _____________________________________________________________ > Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! > http://www.topica.com/topica20 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From wstahle at slonet.org Tue Feb 29 12:34:59 2000 From: wstahle at slonet.org (wstahle at slonet.org) Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 09:34:59 -0800 Subject: Welding cable [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.903081417-951758591-951845699@topica.com> Howdy Wrenches One of the considerations that may drive the non listing of welding cable is how it (insulation) functions in conduit, at high temp, over time. It problably hasn't been tested for this, therefore it is not approved for this. I recently bought 100 ft of the RHW 4/0 to avoid any hassles with the man, few of which seem to know what to look for in these systems anyway. Keep on the sunny side, Wallace Stahle - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From michael.welch at homepower.com Tue Feb 29 12:49:46 2000 From: michael.welch at homepower.com (Michael Welch) Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 09:49:46 -0800 Subject: Earth Day Plans? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1354048809-951758591-951846586@topica.com> Hi Wally At 09:21 AM 02/29/2000 -0800, you wrote: >I am planning on taking my Solar energy trailer to the Earth Day event in downtown San Luis Obispo for show and tell, as well as powering up the stage. > >The catch is I am still working on it and not sure which inverter to go with as far as avoiding audio buzz goes. I am sitting on a U2512 ( a buzz box ) and a 24v XP1100. So I am torn between capacity and sine wave quality. I am willing to install a SW in it but curious if it is noise free in ALL sound systems. Any negative encounters out there with the SW and stage equipment? I have used and seen used the SW series several times for small sound stages. First two times got a heck of a buzz which was corrected by sinking a ground rod and attaching it to the SW ground lug. Now I sink the ground rod as a matter of course, with nary a problem. The solar crew used SWs (two 5548s and two 4024s) at the Hog Farm's Pignic for several years, but switched over to an 12 kw Exeltech MX (and a 20 ton truck nearly full of batteries). The SWs performed well, but were too big to haul around and install easily, and the Exeltech gave us power that was cleaner. One thing to be prepared for: generally sound people do not trust RE, they are afraid it will hurt their equipment and sound bad. You may have to prove to them that the power quality and voltage level is sufficient for what they want to do. For that reason, avoid anything that will buzz, and be very careful to over-size the inverter a bit. >I suspect the Prosine would be the best for capacity and waveform but want to become more intimate with the day to day reality of the SW as it is most prevalent. > >One idea is for you to put together a small rolling system on a cart, wheelbarrow, or pickup truck and let folks see how easy (hee hee) it is to turn sunlight into 120 volts. We built such a little wagon for the Oregon Country Fair's Energy Park, and used it to power an electric band one night. Northern Tools has a great "Big Red Wagon" that we used, it will easily handle the weight of 6-8 T105s and a big inverter. Heart donated the mod sine inverter, and it worked great --as long as the band kept playing and didn't take a break, you could not hear the buzz. Mostly the cart was used for construction at the fair, and not powering electronics. Michael Welch ------------------------ "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." Edward Abbey Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com Associate Editor, Home Power magazine Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Tue Feb 29 13:38:09 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (Sharkey) Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 10:38:09 -0800 Subject: Earth Day [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.894180243-951758591-951849489@topica.com> Hi Wallace; Re: SW inverters and the BUZZ: Watch out for one thing, SW series inverters do not internally bond the neutral and ground. This results in "balanced power" (approx 56 volts to ground on both neut & hot). Theroretically, balanced power should be quieter in audio applications, BUT, if ANY of the equipment in the band or sound crew's system has leakage to ground (intentional or otherwise), it will hum like crazy as the electrons go wild in a mosh. To be safe, BOND the neutral and ground inside your service center AND put in and connect that grounding electrode. Hope it helps (be sure to disconnect the inverter's bond next time your system gets connected to grid power!!!) P.S. I'll be doing the usual for Earth Day, driving my Electric Vehicle and staying smug about it! -S - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From econnect at snowcrest.net Tue Feb 29 17:24:28 2000 From: econnect at snowcrest.net (Bob-O Schultze) Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 14:24:28 -0800 Subject: Earth Day Plans? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.428404946-951758591-951863068@topica.com> Howdy Wallace. Go with the XP 1100 if you can. I use them to power sound systems at the Oregon Country Fair every summer. They are-by far- better than that old U machine. No buzz. The stages we power have fairly complex sound systems, mixing boards, processors, etc. Just have them keep the levels reasonable and the XP aught to do it. Good Luck, Bob-O > >I am planning on taking my Solar energy trailer to the Earth Day >event in downtown San >Luis Obispo for show and tell, as well as powering up the stage. > >The catch is I am still working on it and not sure which inverter to >go with as far as >avoiding audio buzz goes. I am sitting on a U2512 ( a buzz box ) >and a 24v XP1100. So I >am torn between capacity and sine wave quality. I am willing to >install a SW in it but >curious if it is noise free in ALL sound systems. Any negative >encounters out there with >the SW and stage equipment? > >I suspect the Prosine would be the best for capacity and waveform >but want to become more >intimate with the day to day reality of the SW as it is most prevalent. > >One idea is for you to put together a small rolling system on a >cart, wheelbarrow, or >pickup truck and let folks see how easy (hee hee) it is to turn >sunlight into 120 volts. > >Good luck, Wallace Stahle > Bob-O Schultze, Electron Connection PO Box 203, Hornbrook, CA 96044 800.945.7587 fax 530-475-3401 www.electronconnection.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From bill_loesch at compuserve.com Wed Mar 1 00:52:48 2000 From: bill_loesch at compuserve.com (bill loesch) Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 21:52:48 -0800 Subject: Earth Day [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2081499198-212058698-951889968@topica.com> > Re: SW inverters and the BUZZ: Watch out for one thing, SW series inverters do not internally bond the neutral and ground.< On the Statpower ProSine 1100 and 1800 units the neutral and ground ARE internally bonded. I have no experience with and cannot comment about their larger combo charger / inverters. Bill Loesch bill_loesch at compuserve.com St Louis Solar St Louis MO - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From jackwest at alaska.net Wed Mar 1 13:48:31 2000 From: jackwest at alaska.net (Jack D West) Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 10:48:31 -0800 Subject: UPS system info for HP76 [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.502310115-212058698-951936511@topica.com> Jerry, Another, perhaps simpler solution is to tap the battery at 12 (or 24) VDC and use an off the shelf inverter to power the computer and associated equipment. A DC auto transformer can then be used to equalize the battery. These are available from Solar Converters and can be custom ordered for almost any battery voltage. The off the shelf units retail for about US $140. Solar Converters www.sentex.net/~sci 519 824-5272 Jack West Talkeetna AE 907 733-2035 Bob Ellison wrote: > Joy, > I e-mailed Jerry to see what his loads were as a e-mail to you directly got > returned as unknown, below is the note and the response that I received; my > thoughts are below . > > From: "Bob Ellison" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 7:49 PM > Subject: Very Small Computer UPS > > > > > Jerry, > > Can you give me an idea of what your total loads on the backup systems > are? > > I gather that you are feeding the computer with inverter power. What is > your > > battery voltage? Distance from the battery bank? > > > > Thanks > > Bob Ellison > > Hi Bob > The load would be about 300 watts or so, the printers could get shut off and > not get crazy > My battery voltage is nominal 144v dc and the other systems I would want to > help out vary from 12 to 60 volts nominal > My distance is Approx 100 feet > I think I know what you have in mind, but it's hard to find a very small > efficient 144v inverter to just keep hooked up for my computer > We'll be in touch, thanks Jerry > > Bob's response: > > I believe Exeltech (or another manufacturer) can custom build an inverter in > that voltage range, to supply just the computer equipment. That way the only > load on that inverter is the computer and you do not have problems when a > heavy load hits the main inverter, or your transfer switch lets generator > power through the system. You always have conditioned power from the > inverter and no problem with sudden changes in power quality caused by > outside forces, (water pump, washing machine, toaster, or whatever). > I am not sure what "other systems I would want to help out vary from 12 to > 60 volts nominal" means! How many different voltages is he running? > > That's my best quick response. It should isolate the computer and solve his > problem. > > Thanks, > Bob Ellison > > RE. Ellison > Alternative Energy Systems & Supplies > 34642 Countryman Road > Theresa, New York. USA. > 13691-2076 > 315-628-0601 Voice > 315-628-5797 Fax > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joy Anderson [mailto:joy.anderson at homepower.com] > Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 7:59 PM > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Subject: UPS system info for HP76 [RE-wrenches] > > Hello Wrenches, > > We're putting together HP76 and we'd like to print this letter and a > response. Anyone out there have any ideas for this guy? > > Thanks, > > joy > *** > > _____ > Very Small Computer UPS > Hi there, I was wondering if you could help me find a UPS system that > would accept quasisinewave input. I do a lot of switching around on > my system and I would like to have a steady supply of power. If you > know of one that would work I would like to buy it from whoever you > would suggest and then probably buy a few more for some people that I > know that have the same problem. We have tried about three standard > ones and even the one that you could adjust the voltage down 12 volts > from 120, but they would not recognize the inverter input. Thanks for > your help, and look forward to some business. I figured that you guys > would know if anyone would. Jerry Lilyerd * lilyerd at ncis.com > _____ - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From aurora at toad.net Thu Mar 2 20:36:05 2000 From: aurora at toad.net (Jason Fisher) Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 17:36:05 -0800 Subject: Trace Worries [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.516100106-951758591-952047365@topica.com> Comrades, Anyone have any yeas or nays about the Trace UT-SW inverters? I may decide on one for use with some Solarex thin films with Voc=101. They tell me I need a VLc40 to cap off the high voltage during open circuit. Anyone have any experience with these? How is the performance of the MPPT on these inverters? I'm wondering whether Microsines aren't a better idea. How about your thoughts on these, has it proved to be reliable to stick inverters under panels on hot roofs?? Thanks and keep up the healthy chatter! -- Jason Fisher Aurora Energy 86 Conduit St. Annapolis, MD 21401 USA Voice/ Fax: 410-268-3088 email: aurora at toad.net - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From sunwise at win.bright.net Fri Mar 3 12:46:02 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (Kurt Nelson) Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 09:46:02 -0800 Subject: Trace/Frig. [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1431463502-951758591-952105562@topica.com> Greetings Wrenchers, I've got an installation with a Trace U2512. One of its primary loads is a newer General Electric 10 C.F. manual defrost frig/freezer (model number TAX10SNXCRWH). It is pretty efficient for an off the shelf unit, averaging approximately 750 WH a day, with the compressor drawing a little less than 10 amps out of the 12 volt battery. Problem is the Trace periodically has problems starting the compressor. The surge load is not that great, but apparently the compressor doesn't like the modified square wave form. When the compressor does not start, the frig just groans for perhaps 10 seconds and then clicks off (thermal switch?). It tries again after a few minutes and sometimes starts or maybe not. It has always started eventually, but doesn't sound like a good deal. The older, small "dormitory sized" frig that used to be on the same inverter did exactly the same thing. I have metered the voltage and Hz while the frig is unsuccessfully trying to start and the voltage is good but the hz is strange. My Fluke 87 often reads something like 180, which is a harmonic of the 60 cycles I should be seeing. It comes down to 60 cycles if I turn on a resistive load at the same time, and then the frig usually takes off. I have, however, seen even more unusual hz from time to time. Am I just picking up a harmonics, or is something else going on here? If I wire up a small incandescent light to come on with the compressor, how small a wattage can I use and still get a power shift? Any thoughts? Thanks for your time and consideration -- Kurt Nelson, SOLutions - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Fri Mar 3 13:39:15 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (Sharkey) Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 10:39:15 -0800 Subject: Trace/Frig. [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1290897752-951758591-952108755@topica.com> Hi Kurt; Don't know if this is related, but I had some problems with a Trace 812 waking up when a load that used an SCR controller was connected while it was asleep. My solution was to sent the Trace an 'on' command via the remote port when I wanted to wake it up to power the load. Perhaps the U2512 is having a similar problem? You didn't mention whether the U2512was in the sleep mode when this happens, but your reference to an incandescent light makes me wonder? -S - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From j.lamb at pecorp.com Fri Mar 3 13:40:00 2000 From: j.lamb at pecorp.com (j.lamb at pecorp.com) Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 10:40:00 -0800 Subject: Trace Worries [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.377958461-212058698-952108800@topica.com> I do not know how the well the microsines work attached to a collectors. It gets hot under there and they give off some heat as well. On one system I mounted the microsines remotely in the power shed and have a switch that will disconnect the microsines from the solar collectors and feed the 24 volts to a charge controler to a standby sealed battery pack and a small sine wave inverter. This is a double system and provides the best of both worlds, 1. Interface with the grid to use all power generated. 2. By using a switch, the system goes to battery solar system for long power outages. I keep the wires from the collectors as short as possilble and oversized to minimize loss. I notice that the microsines will cause some radio interfence and TV interference on the lower channels (2-5) Most of the wire is in conduent some is not. Trace has not got back to me yet on this one. Has anybody ran into this problem? In Chicago Earth Day is going to be held at the New Nature Museum. An Alternate Energy Fair is to be held in conjunction of Earth Day at or near the same location. More to follow later. > ---------- > From: Jason Fisher[SMTP:aurora at toad.net] > Reply To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 7:36 PM > To: Wrench List > Subject: Trace Worries [RE-wrenches] > > Comrades, > > Anyone have any yeas or nays about the Trace UT-SW inverters? > I may decide on one for use with some Solarex thin films with Voc=101. > They tell me I need a VLc40 to cap off the high voltage during open > circuit. Anyone have any experience with these? How is the performance > of the MPPT on these inverters? I'm wondering whether Microsines aren't > a better idea. How about your thoughts on these, has it proved to be > reliable to stick inverters under panels on hot roofs?? > > Thanks and keep up the healthy chatter! > -- > Jason Fisher > > Aurora Energy > 86 Conduit St. > Annapolis, MD 21401 > USA > > Voice/ Fax: 410-268-3088 > email: aurora at toad.net > > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > _____________________________________________________________ > Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! > http://www.topica.com/topica20 > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From sunwise at win.bright.net Fri Mar 3 16:51:57 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (Kurt Nelson) Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 13:51:57 -0800 Subject: Trace/Frig. [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.518489293-212058698-952120317@topica.com> Greetings Sharkey, Actually the problem with this frig is not a Trace wake up problem, but I'll offer another example that can be frustrating for some Trace owners. With some computers (IBM in my experiences), it is necessary to boot the Trace prior to turning on the PC. Lots of stuff happening in the first second or two that a PC is turned on and the Trace isn't giving it clean power yet. This can make for intermittent strange things with the PC and until you know what's going on, it can leave you scratchin' your head. My personal PC ends up booted without the keyboard working. I just turn a light on momentairly prior to switching on the PC. Kurt At 10:39 AM 3/3/00 -0800, you wrote: > > Hi Kurt; > > Don't know if this is related, but I had some problems with a Trace 812 >waking up when a load that used an SCR controller was connected while it >was asleep. My solution was to sent the Trace an 'on' command via the >remote port when I wanted to wake it up to power the load. Perhaps the >U2512 is having a similar problem? You didn't mention whether the U2512was >in the sleep mode when this happens, but your reference to an incandescent >light makes me wonder? > > -S >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >for info contact: >_____________________________________________________________ >Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! >http://www.topica.com/topica20 > > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From richard.perez at homepower.com Fri Mar 3 19:04:15 2000 From: richard.perez at homepower.com (Richard Perez, Home Power magazine) Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 16:04:15 -0800 Subject: Trace/Frig. [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.507674732-212058698-952128255@topica.com> Gee guys, I know that the mod sines are efficient and cheap, but they are also finicky, hard to live with, and have destroyed a number of appliances. Maybe it's time for Wrenches to try selling their customers sine wave models. I know they cost more. I know that they are less efficient. But the customers are happier. I've never met an electric motor which didn't prefer sine wave over mod sine, same with computer gear. Richard >Greetings Sharkey, > >Actually the problem with this frig is not a Trace wake up problem, but I'll >offer another example that can be frustrating for some Trace owners. With >some computers (IBM in my experiences), it is necessary to boot the Trace >prior to turning on the PC. Lots of stuff happening in the first second or >two that a PC is turned on and the Trace isn't giving it clean power yet. >This can make for intermittent strange things with the PC and until you >know what's going on, it can leave you scratchin' your head. My personal PC >ends up booted without the keyboard working. I just turn a light on >momentairly prior to switching on the PC. > >Kurt > >At 10:39 AM 3/3/00 -0800, you wrote: > > > > Hi Kurt; > > > > Don't know if this is related, but I had some problems with a Trace 812 > >waking up when a load that used an SCR controller was connected while it > >was asleep. My solution was to sent the Trace an 'on' command via the > >remote port when I wanted to wake it up to power the load. Perhaps the > >U2512 is having a similar problem? You didn't mention whether the U2512was > >in the sleep mode when this happens, but your reference to an incandescent > >light makes me wonder? > > > > -S > >- - - - - - - > >To send a message to the list use: > > > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: > > > >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > > >for info contact: > >_____________________________________________________________ > >Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! > >http://www.topica.com/topica20 > > > > > >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: > >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >for info contact: >_____________________________________________________________ >Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! >http://www.topica.com/topica20 ------------------------------------ Richard Perez Home Power PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA Tele: 530-475-3179 FAX: 530-475-0836 Subscriptions: 800-707-6585 mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com Web: http://www.homepower.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Fri Mar 3 19:28:08 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (Sharkey) Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 16:28:08 -0800 Subject: Trace/Frig. [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1009919129-951758591-952129688@topica.com> > Maybe it's time for Wrenches to try selling their >customers sine wave models. List; I think that Richard's probably right here. Modified sine wave inverters are great for certian applications, but running ANY TYPE of induction motor is not one of them. Induction motors have terrible power factors, being very inductive (duh). Some inverters correct for this with "power factor correction" (Heart uses an internal function called 'off-time'shorting', which actually uses the built-up magnetic field inside the motor to give the motor itself a little boost). Universal motors (ones with brushes) seem to do pretty well, but variable-speed tools and such have an annoying delay, even when the inverter is awake and operating, waiting until the speed request is high enough to fire the SCR and start the tool (at what will probably be a too-fast rate). I've never had any computer or audio equipemnt problems, but of course, we all know they exist. Kurt, I mentioned the SCR controller beacuse I thought that maybe a newer fridge might have a solid-state controller instead of a relay, etc. If the inverter is awake when the fridge starts and you're still getting growling, stalled motor noises from the compressor, I'd suggest trying a different inverter. A sine-wave would be the best choice, although you may find a mod-sine of a different model/manufacturer to work better than the present one. Good luck -S - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From ellison at gisco.net Fri Mar 3 22:31:02 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison) Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 19:31:02 -0800 Subject: PV Connection Standards [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.262914228-212058698-952140662@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/mixed Size: 249 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ellison at gisco.net Fri Mar 3 23:25:37 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison) Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 20:25:37 -0800 Subject: PV connection standards [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.948783944-212058698-952143937@topica.com> I just found that the interconnection standards draft that I forwarded in the last mail were approved, don't know yet what, if any changes were made. Bob Ellison - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From sunwise at win.bright.net Sat Mar 4 14:28:14 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (Kurt Nelson) Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 11:28:14 -0800 Subject: Frig [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1705769150-212058698-952198094@topica.com> Hey Richard -- Thanks for the input and I'm sure your right. Sine of the times? Couple of points I feel need to be made now that we've decided that we fix that problem with a new sine-wave inverter. First, this ties in directly to the PV and poverty discussion Steve Willey and I were having. I think we all agree here that PV's are not just for those who can afford to essentially plug their American lifestyle into a huge PV array and pure sine-wave inverter (complete with "silent" mode so they won't have to hear the gen-set while the football game is on). Secondly, I have sold a lot of modified square wave inverters based on the information I or my clients have gathered from articles in your magazine. Please don't take this personally Richard. I know you do not want to do a "Things That Don't Work" article, but because your magazine is essentially the encyclopedia of renewable energy, and people still reference a lot of older issues, maybe it's time for the annual "Year Book". Respectfully submitted, Kurt Nelson - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From gosolar at xtra.co.nz Sat Mar 4 19:48:27 2000 From: gosolar at xtra.co.nz (gosolar at xtra.co.nz) Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 16:48:27 -0800 Subject: Trace/Frig. [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1514335613-212058698-952217307@topica.com> The great Inverter Debate continues: Mod Sine vs. Pure Sine What is wrong with having the best of both worlds? Why not use a big mod sine inverter/charger for the switchboard circuits that are basically resistive-type(or at least don't require a pure sine wave)of loads. This would be approx up to about 75% of a house. And the critical circuits can get a good pure sine wave inverter, which doesn't have to be a huge one. John Veix Christchurch, New Zealand - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From richard.perez at homepower.com Sun Mar 5 12:35:56 2000 From: richard.perez at homepower.com (Richard Perez, Home Power magazine) Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 09:35:56 -0800 Subject: Trace/Frig. [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.958937248-951758591-952277756@topica.com> Hello John and the Wrench Group The problem with this idea is that very few home loads are resistive--most are inductive. CF lights are not resistive, all motors are not resistive, anything with a transformer or switching power supply is not resistive. About the only loads in a home which are resistive are light bulbs and electric heaters--both of which are not in common usage in RE homes. I surveyed our loads here at FMI and the only resistive load in common usage is the toaster.... Richard >The great Inverter Debate continues: Mod Sine vs. Pure Sine > >What is wrong with having the best of both worlds? Why not use a big >mod sine inverter/charger for the switchboard circuits that are >basically resistive-type(or at least don't require a pure sine wave)of >loads. This would be approx up to about 75% of a house. > >And the critical circuits can get a good pure sine wave inverter, which >doesn't have to be a huge one. > > >John Veix > >Christchurch, New Zealand ------------------------------------ Richard Perez Home Power PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA Tele: 530-475-3179 FAX: 530-475-0836 Subscriptions: 800-707-6585 mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com Web: http://www.homepower.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From gosolar at xtra.co.nz Sun Mar 5 20:55:15 2000 From: gosolar at xtra.co.nz (gosolar at xtra.co.nz) Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 17:55:15 -0800 Subject: Trace/Frig. [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.909108321-212058698-952307715@topica.com> I must cede to a much higher authority on the subject; however I did not give you the full picture locally so its not fair to judge my suggestion on that basis. For those of you living within CONUS, it doesn't matter, but if you live outside those boundaries a different picture emerges. Take my own example, for every $1 US, we have to pay $2 local currency. Thats good for you guys that visit here.......your money goes a long way indeed. But if you purchase Trace, lets see now, these are our current prices that we have to sell to our customers: DR1524e $2395. DR2424e $2850 SW3024e $8100 WOW SW3048E ditto SW4548E $9200 gee whiz Now our basic pay is still about the same as yours, very roughlly about $25,000 to $30,000. Thats per year, not per month unless you are the owner of a large international magazine. Heh, heh. And, the price for my daytime electricity is about 13 cents.......and overnight nite rate is 4.5 cents. Converted to your price that is 6.5 US cents for daytime and 2.25 US cents overnight !!!!! How many Net Metering systems can you sell against those prices. The point I'm trying to make here is that how would any of you like to try to sell ONLY pure sine wave inverters under those conditions. I'm not crying in my beer, or saying poor me, just adding a bit of realism to why I suggested mixing mod sine & pure sine. Although I don't have a FMI to guage by, I have 25 CF running out of the over 60 lights in my house. Using a Trace DR2424e, which also runs our automatic dishwasher, which does grunt more than if it was on pure sine wave, but it still works well. We also use a device called a Toast-N-Grill, and the microwave and garbage disposal, and a elec jug (kettle) to heat water for a cuppa. Richard, I know that if it meant the difference between making a good install and mixing inverters or simply just using a mod sine, OR NOT getting another convert over to our way of independence.......I'm sure I'ld know what you'ld say. Especially when you consider what we are up against in pricing due to the exchange rate. Yours from across the water, John Veix - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From wstahle at slonet.org Sun Mar 5 21:35:54 2000 From: wstahle at slonet.org (wstahle at slonet.org) Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 18:35:54 -0800 Subject: Prodigal Sun [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1763589118-951758591-952310154@topica.com> Hey Sun worshipers, Check out the current Mother Jones magazine for a five page piece on the return of solar power. It is a generic overview of the last thirty years following the up and downs of the industry. It is the one with (oil) slick George "Dubya" Bush on the cover. Here is one small excerpt: The utility red tape has inspired a defiant group of fly-by-night electricians to connect solar homes directly to utility meters--- their guerrilla raids chronicled in the Oregon magazine Home Power. Also thanks to Bob Ellison for the draft IEEE 929 standards. Being more educated on the engineering concerns of grid tie can only help in our interactions with various "authorities". What are the perameters of topics for this "wrench" list. Is it open season for non wrench concerns like the marketing discusion we had a while back? Or do busy wrenches prefer a tech focus. Is this the place for a discussion on the corporate aquisition of RE supply chains for instance. Or should it be saved for the Left Bank Cafe? Just curious. Warm regards, Wallace Stahle, Future Electric - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From indeppower at aol.com Sun Mar 5 21:54:39 2000 From: indeppower at aol.com (indeppower at aol.com) Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 18:54:39 -0800 Subject: Trace/Frig. [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1230580520-951758591-952311279@topica.com> In a message dated 3/3/2000 12:46:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, sunwise at win.bright.net writes: << Problem is the Trace periodically has problems starting the compressor. The surge load is not that great, but apparently the compressor doesn't like the modified square wave form. >> Kurt, Several years ago I solved a Mod sine problem by wiring a capacitor across its output. The customer was powering a boiler. The oil gun would go not start unless there was a light already on (nothing to do with search mode however), Rob Wills schooled me on the capacitor solution. David Palumbo, IP&L - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Sun Mar 5 22:46:17 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (Sharkey) Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 19:46:17 -0800 Subject: Trace/Frig. [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1019741126-212058698-952314377@topica.com> List; I think we should keep the sine/mod-sine inverter discussion in perspective. Yes, sine wave is the best way to go, but there is not one thing wrong with powering whatever loads you have with mod-sine if it does the job properly. I think Richard would agree that we all (including the customer) want the best value for the installed dollar. Sure, most loads are reactive, but if they work properly, and give acceptable electrical efficiency, then use the mod-sine. Of course, when installing for a customer, one has to be aware that they may not consider the difference between their self-geneated power and the grid, quality-wise. They may be aware that there is less of it, but not that there are ordinary appliances that may not operate properly or at all while consuming that renewable energy. For these instances, it's probably best to install the sine-wave as their satisfaction with the system (and your installation) may hinge upon it's performance while using 'difficult loads'. John; As for your quoted prices, I realise that $1 (US) = $2 (NZ), but even with that exchange rate, somebody is making some bucks on equpment. Is there a stiff import duty or high taxes to pay ??? Perhaps we need to send you a cargo ship full of RE equipment to jump-start your RE economy?? Kurt; If you decide to try a capacitor across your inverter's output, make sure it is rated for *well over* the AC voltage and current expected at the output. You may have to try a variety of values. It might also be better to put the cap across the *motor*, rather than the inverter, then it will only be in-circuit when the motor is running. Also try measuring the DC current into the inverter with the capacitor in and out of the circuit with the motor running. You may find it is better to disconnect the cap after the motor has started (more and better complex circuitry!) -S - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From wstahle at slonet.org Mon Mar 6 02:25:09 2000 From: wstahle at slonet.org (wstahle at slonet.org) Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 23:25:09 -0800 Subject: Sunslates? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.510074273-951758591-952327509@topica.com> Howdy REnches, I am going to be talking to a friend this week who needs some roofing done and is interested in a PV roof. I've handled the Sunslate tiles and posess a cutsheet, but have little info on reliability and output over time. I did hear that the interconnects can be problematic but that may be dated info. I suggested a system with longer output warranty, but his interest in aesthetics is strong. Any recomendations on brand or techniques? Any known problems or sucesses? In other words is it advisable? Thanks for any input, Wallace Stahle - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From solarbeacon at email.msn.com Mon Mar 6 12:55:09 2000 From: solarbeacon at email.msn.com (Bill Roush) Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 09:55:09 -0800 Subject: Trace/Frig. [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.468169443-212058698-952365309@topica.com> List; Has anyone tried the new Invertrix inverters? They are mod-sine ( of course no grid intertie). The lit. claims their 36 (not 20) FET transformer will run "difficult motor loads" and laser fax.... Bill Roush Solar Electric Systems of Kansas City, Inc. 13700 W. 108th St. Lenexa, KS 66215 913-338-1939 800-632-9751 913-469-5522fax solarbeacon at email.msn.com www.solarbeacon.com -----Original Message----- From: gosolar at xtra.co.nz [mailto:gosolar at xtra.co.nz] Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2000 7:55 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Re: Trace/Frig. [RE-wrenches] - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From richard.perez at homepower.com Mon Mar 6 13:00:20 2000 From: richard.perez at homepower.com (Richard Perez, Home Power magazine) Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 10:00:20 -0800 Subject: Trace/Frig. [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1327132090-951758591-952365620@topica.com> Hello John Cost has always been an issue with RE systems. I think a responsible installing dealer should warn their customers that there will be problems with modified sine wave power. Give them the information and let them make the choice, after all it's their money they are spending. Then when the customer complains about mod sine power problems, you can say that you warned them and suggest solutions. The examples you chose for cost comparisons are all Trace inverters. How about the sine wave models made by both Statpower and Exeltech? The Exeltech XP1100 has a MSRP of around US$750, which is an outstanding deal and cheaper than some mod sine inverters. The Statpower products are not American and perhaps New Zealand treats them differently regarding import duties. Both the Statpower and Exeltech have cleaner sine wave outputs than the Trace, both are reliable, and both are less expensive. As you mentioned, the electricity prices in NZ are so cheap that utility interties makes no financial sense (which it doesn't in the USA either), hence you don't need the utility intertie capabilities of the Traces, but you pay for them anyway. I was not saying that dealers should sell only sine wave inverters. What I meant that was dealers should attempt to sell sine wave inverters to their customers. Give them the straight info about mod sine problems, and explain the cost differences. The purchasing decision is obviously up to the customer. Mod sine inverters still have their place in low cost systems which will tolerate their funky power. I used them for years here and sold them to my customers. I must say I don't miss the thrill of buying a new appliance, plugging it in, and seeing if it fries and dies. I worry about the long term effects of mod sine power on equipment. Even though the appliance operates, albeit at lower performance, what is the mod sine power doing to the longevity of the appliance? In my experience, mod sine power produces more waste heat in power supplies and motors. This extra heat will eventually shorten the life of the appliance. Where are the cost savings then? I'm curious and since this is the Wrench list, I'm going to ask. How about it dealers, what percentage of the inverters you currently sell are mod sine and what percentage are sine wave? Richard >I must cede to a much higher authority on the subject; however I did not >give you the full picture locally so its not fair to judge my suggestion >on that basis. > >For those of you living within CONUS, it doesn't matter, but if you live >outside those boundaries a different picture emerges. Take my own >example, for every $1 US, we have to pay $2 local currency. Thats good >for you guys that visit here.......your money goes a long way indeed. >But if you purchase Trace, lets see now, these are our current prices >that we have to sell to our customers: > > DR1524e $2395. > DR2424e $2850 > SW3024e $8100 WOW > SW3048E ditto > SW4548E $9200 gee whiz > >Now our basic pay is still about the same as yours, very roughlly about >$25,000 to $30,000. Thats per year, not per month unless you are the >owner of a large international magazine. Heh, heh. > >And, the price for my daytime electricity is about 13 cents.......and >overnight nite rate is 4.5 cents. Converted to your price that is 6.5 >US cents for daytime and 2.25 US cents overnight !!!!! How many Net >Metering systems can you sell against those prices. > >The point I'm trying to make here is that how would any of you like to >try to sell ONLY pure sine wave inverters under those conditions. I'm >not crying in my beer, or saying poor me, just adding a bit of realism >to why I suggested mixing mod sine & pure sine. > >Although I don't have a FMI to guage by, I have 25 CF running out of the >over 60 lights in my house. Using a Trace DR2424e, which also runs our >automatic dishwasher, which does grunt more than if it was on pure sine >wave, but it still works well. We also use a device called a >Toast-N-Grill, and the microwave and garbage disposal, and a elec jug >(kettle) to heat water for a cuppa. > >Richard, I know that if it meant the difference between making a good >install and mixing inverters or simply just using a mod sine, OR NOT >getting another convert over to our way of independence.......I'm sure >I'ld know what you'ld say. Especially when you consider what we are up >against in pricing due to the exchange rate. > >Yours from across the water, > > John Veix ------------------------------------ Richard Perez Home Power PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA Tele: 530-475-3179 FAX: 530-475-0836 Subscriptions: 800-707-6585 mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com Web: http://www.homepower.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From richard.perez at homepower.com Mon Mar 6 13:00:39 2000 From: richard.perez at homepower.com (Richard Perez, Home Power magazine) Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 10:00:39 -0800 Subject: Sunslates? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.975088039-212058698-952365639@topica.com> Hello Wallace and the Wrench Group We put up a new cabin here last year. We asked the distributor of the UniSolar PV roofing (Solar Utility Inc out of Culver City, CA) for a quote on PV roofing for this cabin. The price was about 25% higher than the most expensive PV module. Our enthusiasm for this project ended when Solar Utility Inc burned us for their over $3K ad bill.... Considering issues of longevity, warranty, and price, I really can't recommend PV roofing over modules. Make sure that your customer knows that they are buying into a developmental technology. I know that Lee and Mary at Solar Plexus are selling the PV roofing. Contact them for info regarding performance and install problems. Richard >Howdy REnches, > >I am going to be talking to a friend this week who needs some roofing >done and is interested in a PV roof. > >I've handled the Sunslate tiles and posess a cutsheet, but have little >info on reliability and output over time. I did hear that the >interconnects can be problematic but that may be dated info. > >I suggested a system with longer output warranty, but his interest in >aesthetics is strong. > >Any recomendations on brand or techniques? Any known problems or >sucesses? > >In other words is it advisable? > >Thanks for any input, Wallace Stahle ------------------------------------ Richard Perez Home Power PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA Tele: 530-475-3179 FAX: 530-475-0836 Subscriptions: 800-707-6585 mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com Web: http://www.homepower.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From sunwise at win.bright.net Mon Mar 6 14:31:42 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (Kurt Nelson) Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 11:31:42 -0800 Subject: Mod/Sine [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2104721943-951758591-952371102@topica.com> Richard wrote, "I'm curious and since this is the Wrench list, I'm going to ask. How about it dealers, what percentage of the inverters you currently sell are mod sine and what percentage are sine wave?". I must say that the last two full sized inverters I sold were Trace SW's. Prior to that I had only sold Trace's SW for systems that were Grid-tied or had plans to inter-tie in the future. Long ago I had some problems with Statpower, and have never sold anything newer of theirs including their sine line. Maybe I should look at them again. I have sold Exeltech for sensitive electronics and buzz free audio/video, but somehow always thought Trace mod. was going to stand up to big table saw type motor loads better than Exeltech's product -- that Exeltech's inverters were more likely to smoke if abused. Sounds like I'm wrong. Kurt Nelson - SOLutions - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From gosolar at win.bright.net Mon Mar 6 15:53:18 2000 From: gosolar at win.bright.net (G.N. Solar) Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 12:53:18 -0800 Subject: sine VS square [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.921995434-212058698-952375998@topica.com> Dear Wrenches: I appreciate you folks! I would like to interject a note on the inverter talk. I have looked at wave forms of different inverters. Mod-sine should, in my humble opinion, be called square wave. This helps understand the distinction. NO? We sell about 30% square wave (OK they modify the square wave, but it is still square!) to 70% sine wave. They go well where the bucks are low and we want the efficiency higher than sine wave gets. Hope we can call a square a square! Energetically, Chris LaForge Great Northern Solar 77450 Evergreen Road, Suite #1 Port Wing, WI 54865 715-774-3374 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From ellison at gisco.net Mon Mar 6 16:58:02 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison) Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 13:58:02 -0800 Subject: Trace/Frig. [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.163669987-212058698-952379882@topica.com> I was nosy so I checked and a Heart Interface Freedom 2512 has 24 FET's, I haven't called Trace yet. Thanks, Bob Ellison RE. Ellison Alternative Energy Systems & Supplies 34642 Countryman Road Theresa, New York. USA. 13691-2076 -----Original Message----- From: Bill Roush [mailto:solarbeacon at email.msn.com] Sent: Monday, March 06, 2000 12:55 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: RE: Trace/Frig. [RE-wrenches] List; Has anyone tried the new Invertrix inverters? They are mod-sine ( of course no grid intertie). The lit. claims their 36 (not 20) FET transformer will run "difficult motor loads" and laser fax.... Bill Roush Solar Electric Systems of Kansas City, Inc. 13700 W. 108th St. Lenexa, KS 66215 913-338-1939 800-632-9751 913-469-5522fax solarbeacon at email.msn.com www.solarbeacon.com -----Original Message----- From: gosolar at xtra.co.nz [mailto:gosolar at xtra.co.nz] Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2000 7:55 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Re: Trace/Frig. [RE-wrenches] - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From gosolar at xtra.co.nz Mon Mar 6 17:16:01 2000 From: gosolar at xtra.co.nz (gosolar at xtra.co.nz) Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 14:16:01 -0800 Subject: Trace/Frig. [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1706976442-212058698-952380961@topica.com> Hello Richard, Once again you are about 120% or more correct! And tactful and diplomatic to go along with it. What you said about inverters is what I do - give customers the facts and comparisons and let them decide what they want, they are the ones paying. "You name the tune, you pay the piper" I'm also wondering if 230V 50Hz has intrinsically less problems with mod sine vs. your familar 110V 60Hz? It would be an interesting point. However Sharkey was not exactly correct in the assumption that "someone is making a buck". For example, Siemens 75w has a US selling price of $400. So $400 x 2(the exchange rate) = $800 local dollars. Now add some International freight and our GST (GST is a Govt tax - like your State & Fed taxes - GST is 12.5%) And the selling price becomes $935 which is the price we charge our end-users. You'll find it pretty true for most products across the board. He could send me a boatload of RE gear and the end-user will still pay about the same price!! But life goes on and I still have to work within its confines. As you know Richard I'm trying to set up an Energy Fair here and apart from that its business as usual - promote, promote, promote! I'll just have to work harder or sharper to spread the word. Thanks for your help Richard and keep up the good work. It will be very interesting to see the ratio of mod sine to pure sine sold. John Veix "......teach your children to fish with their minds" Jimmy Buffett - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From indeppower at aol.com Mon Mar 6 21:10:20 2000 From: indeppower at aol.com (indeppower at aol.com) Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 18:10:20 -0800 Subject: Trace/Frig. [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.340570227-212058698-952395020@topica.com> In a message dated 3/6/2000 1:01:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, richard.perez at homepower.com writes: << I'm curious and since this is the Wrench list, I'm going to ask. How about it dealers, what percentage of the inverters you currently sell are mod sine and what percentage are sine wave? >> Richard, We sell Trace SW's approximately 60% of inverter sales, Exeltech (mostly XP 1100's) 30%, and Trace DR's 10%. Palumbo, IP&L - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From indeppower at aol.com Mon Mar 6 22:20:42 2000 From: indeppower at aol.com (indeppower at aol.com) Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 19:20:42 -0800 Subject: Trace/Pulse power centers [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.773113996-212058698-952399242@topica.com> Dealer/Installers, What do you know about Trace and Pulse no longer working together on the PC250, PC 500 Power Centers. Was the problem slower than expected sales, or what? I thought they made sense for a number of SW systems (saving lots of time compared to Trace DC250 set ups). Have you heard if Trace will be offering their own Power Centers (other than the beastly Power Panels) to replace the Pulse made units? I can still purchase Pulse products direct from Pulse at a good discount (40% off; can I do better?) but I was wondering if there is something that I haven't heard about that would steer me in another direction. Wondering in woods of Vermont, Dave Palumbo, IP&L - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From wstahle at slonet.org Tue Mar 7 00:53:08 2000 From: wstahle at slonet.org (wstahle at slonet.org) Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 21:53:08 -0800 Subject: Sunslates? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.216201835-951758591-952408388@topica.com> Richard, Thanks for the reply. I talked to Joe at Atlantis Solar ,the manufacturer this morning and needless to say he had good news. I pointed out the newness of the application and he indicated it was about three years here in the states, but longer (?) in Europe where slate roofs are quite common. There had been problems with junction boxes cracking but that has been resolved within the molding process he said. He talked about PV dealers being standoffish with their systems prefering instead to sell what they already know. I pointed out the lack of a history on roofs at that point. As far as developmental tech goes, that is what you PV elders have been selling and wrassling with for years. Now it is time for PV roofing to pay it's dues. It is just another industrial learning curve sort of thing. Though I plan to avoid learning the hard way with someones roof and money. I favor reliability and performance over experimenting and profit. I will give Lee and Mary a call soon to get the scoop on their experience. Thanks again, Wallace Stahle, Future Electric Richard Perez, Home Power magazine wrote: > Hello Wallace and the Wrench Group > > We put up a new cabin here last year. We asked the distributor of the > UniSolar PV roofing (Solar Utility Inc out of Culver City, CA) for a > quote on PV roofing for this cabin. The price was about 25% higher > than the most expensive PV module. Our enthusiasm for this project > ended when Solar Utility Inc burned us for their over $3K ad bill.... > > Considering issues of longevity, warranty, and price, I really can't > recommend PV roofing over modules. Make sure that your customer knows > that they are buying into a developmental technology. > > I know that Lee and Mary at Solar Plexus are selling the PV roofing. > Contact them for info regarding performance and install problems. > > Richard > > >Howdy REnches, > > > >I am going to be talking to a friend this week who needs some roofing > >done and is interested in a PV roof. > > > >I've handled the Sunslate tiles and posess a cutsheet, but have little > >info on reliability and output over time. I did hear that the > >interconnects can be problematic but that may be dated info. > > > >I suggested a system with longer output warranty, but his interest in > >aesthetics is strong. > > > >Any recomendations on brand or techniques? Any known problems or > >sucesses? > > > >In other words is it advisable? > > > >Thanks for any input, Wallace Stahle > > ------------------------------------ > Richard Perez > Home Power > PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA > Tele: 530-475-3179 > FAX: 530-475-0836 > Subscriptions: 800-707-6585 > mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com > Web: http://www.homepower.com > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > _____________________________________________________________ > Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! > http://www.topica.com/topica20 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From cvsolar at aol.com Tue Mar 7 06:46:19 2000 From: cvsolar at aol.com (cvsolar at aol.com) Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 03:46:19 -0800 Subject: Mod vs Sine [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.914771805-951758591-952429579@topica.com> Hi Richard, 95% Sine from my side of the country. On and off grid. Like you said, it's nice to know that the appliances will work and when a customer is spending a lot of money on PV's, it is not a big percentage more to go with the best. When given the choice even the budget restrained would rather skimp on batteries or PV's to start and have a core system that doesn't have to be replaced. The one DR2412 I sold has an owner wishing he had bought a sine. I even found something that did not run on the SW4024! A breadmaker. When I turned all the lights off at night, the house load drops so low that the nice sine wave turns into a mod sine and the breadmaker turned itself off. Didn't even like the reduced number of steps. When another load was added such as the toaster, the breadmaker would turn back on. It was real disappointing to wake up and find wet dough instead of fresh bread for breakfast. The solution was to leave lights on..uggh. Or find a breadmaker that is not so finicky... which we did. Magic Chef does not work, Regal works fine. We sold our Magic Chef to a friend on the grid. John Blittersdorf Central Vermont Solar and WInd 200 West Road N. Chittenden, VT 05763 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From sunwise at win.bright.net Tue Mar 7 11:30:05 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (Kurt Nelson) Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 08:30:05 -0800 Subject: Sine vs. loads [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2052251404-212058698-952446605@topica.com> Greetings once again Wrenchers, I'm not sure where to begin here but I've been following the rest of the mod/sine debate and simply have to pipe in and probably put my foot in it again. If we leave a light on all night to keep an SW awake, or even if we get creative and turn the search watts to off (0), we are still buring up to half a kilowatt of electricity daily (depending on SW model) just to power a tiny timmer circuit in a bread machine (that's just the timmer, we still haven't baked any bread yet!). Apparently I haven't been selling as many sines as the rest of the dealers out there, but I gotta tell you the first conversation I have with my clients isn't about wave form, its about LOADS. I can't imagine installing systems in New Zeland where components cost almost twice what they do in the States, but here in Wisconsin where inexpensive modified square wave inverters can easily power electric coffee pots and electric toaster ovens (resistive loads), no such load has ever remained on a client's load profile worksheet. I have an electric toaster (although I often toast my morning slice on top of the woodstove during low-light winter months) and I have many clients with nuke ovens, but short of shunt loads designed to charge regulate, those would be about the only electric heating loads I want to power with PV's. I really feel that a large part of my job is making a client's home as efficient as possible. They hire me for my knowledge on phantom loads and my experience in creatively making them vanish while still having as little an impact on their quality of life as is possible. I often get the pleasure of working with clients who are still in the design stage of their dream home and then we can really accomplish things. Not just applicances, home heating, water heating and water pumping that are energy efficient and easy on the PV's and inverters, but daylighting, insulation, low flow toilets, and TV's and VCRs that don't go stupid when you really power em down. I'm sorry if I'm sounding preachy, but I really see a trend in this industry away from the golden rule I learned at the first Bob-O workshop I attended many, many years ago. It is always cheaper to save a watt than to produce one. I'd say that it's not only cheaper, but way better as well. Sincerely, Kurt Nelson, SOLutions - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From richard.perez at homepower.com Thu Mar 9 15:30:33 2000 From: richard.perez at homepower.com (Richard Perez, Home Power magazine) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 12:30:33 -0800 Subject: Mod vs Sine [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: Hello John and the Wrench Group Thanks for your info. And thanks to the other Wrenches who let us know what types of inverters they are selling to their customers. I suspected that the sine wave models were gaining the upper hand in the market place. This is great! I'm surprised to hear that the breadmaker had problems with the SW's output. There is a only small list of appliances which don't like its "Mayan pyramid" waveform. I'll add the Magic Chef breadmaker to the list. Which goes to show that inverter makers are using the term "pure sine wave" loosely. Just throwing the inverter's waveform up on the oscilloscope clearly shows how closely the inverter replicates a sine wave. We just purchased a Fluke 43 Power Quality Analyzer here. We're testing everything we can get our hands on. We'll publish the data as soon as we get enough of it. Quite a few surprises. Richard >Hi Richard, > 95% Sine from my side of the country. On and off grid. Like you said, >it's nice to know that the appliances will work and when a customer is >spending a lot of money on PV's, it is not a big percentage more to go with >the best. When given the choice even the budget restrained would rather >skimp on batteries or PV's to start and have a core system that doesn't have >to be replaced. The one DR2412 I sold has an owner wishing he had bought a >sine. > > I even found something that did not run on the SW4024! A breadmaker. When >I turned all the lights off at night, the house load drops so low that the >nice sine wave turns into a mod sine and the breadmaker turned itself off. >Didn't even like the reduced number of steps. When another load was added >such as the toaster, the breadmaker would turn back on. It was real >disappointing to wake up and find wet dough instead of fresh bread for >breakfast. The solution was to leave lights on..uggh. >Or find a breadmaker that is not so finicky... which we did. Magic Chef does >not work, Regal works fine. We sold our Magic Chef to a friend on the grid. > >John Blittersdorf >Central Vermont Solar and WInd >200 West Road >N. Chittenden, VT 05763 ------------------------------------ Richard Perez Home Power PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA Tele: 530-475-3179 FAX: 530-475-0836 Subscriptions: 800-707-6585 mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com Web: http://www.homepower.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From ecoelec at rof.net Thu Mar 9 15:30:37 2000 From: ecoelec at rof.net (Pat Kiernan) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 12:30:37 -0800 Subject: Intro, Mod vs. Sine, Trace UT-SW MPPT & THD, ConServ/Vestfrost reliability, NE Message-ID: Hello wrenches! First an intro ... Name: Pat Kiernan Company: Eco Electric, Inc. PO Box 2389, Basalt, CO 81621 Company Description: Licensed electrical contractor specializing in renewable energy and energy efficiency. I have been installing PV since 1989. The company was started in 1993, with the intention of doing a variety of electrical work initially and focusing on RE as the market allowed. Initially about 20% was RE, last year 60 to 70%. Our work is primarily PV, last year more grid-tied than stand alone. We work occasionally with wind or hydro. Being 20 miles from Aspen, I have the option of supplementing the RE opportunities with residential and commercial wiring as needed. In stand alone residential situations, we often do the RE as well as the electrical design and wiring for the home. This allows us to provide an integrated combination of energy production and efficient electrical equipment. The largest PV system I have installed is 4.5 kW. The most satisfying is a 450 watt system with a backup Korean war surplus generator that is largely silent all summer. To see a couple and young child live simply and well with this system has been an inspiration in treading lightly! I have not sold a mod sine in several years. Even in modest systems I encourage owners to bite the sine bullet up front, rather than deal with ongoing equipment irritations. Off grid sine units we install are primarily Trace SW. Grid tied are a mix of Trace UT-SW and AES GC-1000. The biggest problems we've had with Trace SW units are erratic performance of clocks, non-user friendly controls and manuals, and sketchy technical support. The Trace UT-SW (grid tie, no battery) have exhibited a couple of problems. The MPPT voltage with three series single crystal PV modules should track at about 48 to 51 volts. Some units consistently track at about 39 volts, resulting in about 20% less power. Trace has updated firmware that I will be installing in a couple units in the next few weeks that is intended to correct this. Also, one report claims that Trace UT-SW units operating at 25% (1kW on a 4kW SW) of rated power have a THD of 17%. The AES GC-1000 is fairly new -- our first ones went in last year. They are a very easy package to wire when purchased with the combiner/GFCI/AC&DC disconnect package. I don't have a power quality meter, so have not measured the purity of output. Some of the wiring terminal blocks and fuse holders are a bit flimsy and need to be handled with care. Anyone out there able to speak to the surge capacity/overload protection of switching technology sines like the ProSine? I'd like to give them a try. Any pros/cons/reliability info out there on the ConServ/Vestfrost refrigerators and freezers? There are quite a number of proposals to amend the PV section of the 2002 NEC. I encourage you all to review and comment so the wrenches can balance out the paper electricians. Fellow wrenches, I am delighted to be included in your company. I'm enjoying the philosophical and technical discussions. Pat Kiernan Eco Electric, Inc. From gosolar at win.bright.net Thu Mar 9 15:30:44 2000 From: gosolar at win.bright.net (G.N. Solar) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 12:30:44 -0800 Subject: Intro, Mod vs. Sine, Trace UT-SW MPPT & THD, ConServ/Vestfrost reliabilit Message-ID: Greetings Wrenches: A quick reply to Pat Kiernan: I have been operating a Vestfrost several years here at SunFarm on our stand alone hybrid wind/PV system. The unit runs well on the trace 2012 U series square wave inverter. When in sleep mode the freezer wakes the 2012 up and it goes back to sleep when the freezer goes off. The freezer uses more power than advertized (not unusual) but is still quite effiecient. No exact figures at this time. I have clients with the fridge/freezer. Again they use more than the hype. They are oddly shaped (tall and skinny) but are more effiecient than most commercial units. For ultimate conservation SunFrost still seems to be on top. Energetically, Chris LaForge Any pros/cons/reliability info out there on the ConServ/Vestfrost refrigerators and freezers? There are quite a number of proposals to amend the PV section of the 2002 NEC. I encourage you all to review and comment so the wrenches can balance out the paper electricians. Fellow wrenches, I am delighted to be included in your company. I'm enjoying the philosophical and technical discussions. Pat Kiernan Eco Electric, Inc. Great Northern Solar 77450 Evergreen Road, Suite #1 Port Wing, WI 54865 715-774-3374 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From solar at eagle-access.net Thu Mar 9 15:31:23 2000 From: solar at eagle-access.net (Drake Chamberlin - Electrical Energy) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 12:31:23 -0800 Subject: Invertrix [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, The discussion of sine wave Vs non sine wave inverters is very interesting. I've often seen modified sine wave units have problems, especially with submersible well pumps. There is another twist offered by Invertrix, Inc. of Ventura, CA. They seem to be claiming that the voltage wave form is not really the issue. Invertrix claims that their design handles the power factor better than a sine wave inverter for $1000 less. Does anyone have experience with these units? Their discussion of power factor and wave form is on the web at: http://invertrix.com/sinewave.htm I would be curious to hear what Wrenches think of these claims. Drake From mr.sun at juno.com Thu Mar 9 15:32:05 2000 From: mr.sun at juno.com (Greg Williams) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 12:32:05 -0800 Subject: Introduction & question about load balancing generators [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: Carl, AEE/Applied Power has toroidal transformers that work good w/ high efficiency. I've also used the basic transformers from places like Industrial Electric (wholesale house). They don't specifically have 240/120 on the label sometimes, but I've just looked for a 2 to 1 ratio such as 480/240 and it works fine. Don't forget circuit breakers !! Greg Williams, Systems Design Engineer C-46, C-10, Six Rivers Solar, Inc. 818 Broadway, Eureka, CA 95501 ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From sunwise at win.bright.net Thu Mar 9 15:32:21 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (by way of Michael Welch) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 12:32:21 -0800 Subject: Introduction & question about load balancing generators [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: carl reuter wrote: > > How to balance out the two legs of ac > output on the average Honda type generator. Hey Carl, Bob-O is on a much deserved vacation so I'll mention a method he recommended to me once that has worked very well on a couple installations I've done. You bring one leg off the gen-set to the ac2 input on the Trace. The other leg goes to the normally open contact on a Todd transfer switch. The ac output from the Trace goes to the normally closed contact on the transfer switch. The common is the hot on the 120vac load center. The Trace has a 60 second default setting on it's internal transfer switch and the Todd's timer circuit has to be less and usually is (they do have a timer to allow the gen-set to come up and settle in). You fire up the gen-set and both the Todd and the Trace are seeing ac in good. After about 30 seconds, the Todd transfers the load center over to the one leg of the gen-set and in doing so disconnects the Trace's ac out from the load center (home loads now on the gen-set). About another 20 seconds or so and the Trace's internal transfer switch comes on an starts charging the battery with the other leg of the gen-set. Although Trace does not recommend an external transfer switch, this works well and I have spoke with them and they apparently have no problem with the arrangement. You can balance the output further by scrolling the charger amps down on the Trace. It's default is 30 amps I think and the home loads will be less than that most likely. By the way, I do not recommend using a Honda that is less than 5KW. The chargers in the Trace are not very efficient and are using the top end of the wave form and the peak voltage on most gen-sets of this variety are pretty low. That means as the battery voltage comes up, the amps fall off. Loading both sides of the generator usually also increases the peak voltage as well which is an added bennifit. The Todd I've used is the smaller inexpensive 30 amp model and it works well on the 2,500 watt inverter as long as you current limit the gen-set to 30 amps. If it is grid-tied, you need to go with a larger transfer switch as even the little guy can pass thru 60 amps if I remember right. Dito on the bigger Trace. Good luck. Kurt Nelson, SOLutions To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > _____________________________________________________________ > Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! > http://www.topica.com/topica20 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From ellison at gisco.net Thu Mar 9 15:32:27 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 12:32:27 -0800 Subject: Introduction & question about load balancing generators [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: Carl, Try the Trace T-240 for balancing the generator, I think it is rated for 4500 watts. Good luck, Bob Ellison RE. Ellison Alternative Energy Systems & Supplies 34642 Countryman Road Theresa, New York. USA. 13691-2076 -----Original Message----- From: carl reuter [mailto:creuter at rocketmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2000 2:18 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Introduction & question about load balancing generators [RE-wrenches] Hello fellow installers: I've been reading along for the past few months and wanted to introduce myself. I'm Carl Reuter and I've got a solar business in Santa Cruz,Ca and serve the folks living in the local mountains with off grid installations and an occasional emergency back up system. Its primarily word of mouth and I get none of the tire kicker types and mis informed people calling about solar because their electric bills are too high. Its a little slow at times but the local economy is tremendous and even the old tight wad off grid folks are retiring their 12 year old golf cart batteries this season.The biggest problem is with the rich folks buying rural land and wanting solar systems and taking no interest in how the thing works and expecting it to be like grid power without the monthly electric bills.All in all life is good here though. My current need for more info is concerning:How to balance out the two legs of ac output on the average Honda type generator. In other words,if a gennie is loaded only on one of its 120v legs to go to the inverter/charger then the other leg has no load and eventually the stator in the gennie will fry. If a second charger is added it would have to be a 24v or 48v unit to match the trace sine waves input voltage which means stacked Todds. When I've gone that route I have seen less then expected output and the last time I tried adding a second charger to a gennie that ran imbalanced for years, it actually pushed the stator over the edge and smoked it in the first half hour(oops). I,ve stacked traces but not everyone wants to pay for that to keep their generator happy. Of course there is the t former but they are pricey as well especially in the hi wattage sizes. So what are my best options here? I can always try selling the customer on the 1800rpm type generators but most people want cheaper solutions. So how do you guys deal with this imbalance issue? Whats a good source for 220 to 120v transformers? Carl Reuter,Land & Sea Solar. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From kelly at alt-energy.com Thu Mar 9 15:32:29 2000 From: kelly at alt-energy.com (Kelly Larson) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 12:32:29 -0800 Subject: Solar roofing materials [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: Wallace- Just a couple of thoughts on solar roofing. Be sure to check out the leak warranty on solar roofing material. Some solar roofs in the past have not had adequate guaranties as water-tight roofing. Also if the material is not going to last more than 15 years, (a possibility with thin-film), so a "30 year roofing material" may not produce power for half of its lifetime. Kelly Kelly Larson Technician Alternative Energy Engineering 1155 Redway Dr./Box 339 Redway, Ca 95560 Voice: 800-777-6609 x126 Fax: 800-777-6648 Attn: Kelly e-mail: kelly at alt-energy.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From wkennedy at jademountain.com Thu Mar 9 15:33:23 2000 From: wkennedy at jademountain.com (Wes Kennedy) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 12:33:23 -0800 Subject: Explorer Products? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: Hey gang, Designing the appliance package is a big part of the load profile. Anyone have any experience with the Explorer line of propane refers? As a related issue, do most folks design in propane, super efficient DC, or the newest generation of energy star "conventional" refrigerators? thanks! Wes Wes Kennedy Evolutionary Technologist "Your philosophy is not what you believe, it's how you live!" -j rubin - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From michael.welch at homepower.com Sat Mar 11 14:17:54 2000 From: michael.welch at homepower.com (Michael Welch) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 11:17:54 -0800 Subject: More Trace Unresponsiveness [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: Wrenches: Ezra Auerbach of the Trace marketing department has read at least some of our posts. He asked to be able to reply to Bob-O's recent post, and I said I would have a look at it and post it on his behalf. At first I didn't want to post it because it is so darn long and contains info that is available elsewhere. But after talking it over with a couple of wrenches, we agree that there is enough new info and interesting news to go ahead and post it. Additionally, Ezra will be added to the list as he has substantial field experience installing systems. He meets the criteria set forth. Here's his post: March 10, 2000 FROM: Ezra Auerbach ezra at lasqueti.net RE: More Trace Unresponsiveness (RE-wrenches) Posted by Bob-O Schultz (econnect at snowcrest.net) February 2000 Hi Wrenches: I would like to reply to Bob-O's above noted posting about the new Trace PS inverter. Allow me to begin by introducing myself. My name is Ezra Auerbach. I currently live off-grid on a small island in British Columbia, and have done so for more than twenty eight years. I've been involved in many aspects of the renewable industry including retail sales, installation, and support of Trace equipment to end-use customers. These days, I work in the Marketing Department of Trace Engineering. Among other duties, I am given the opportunity to take new products home and try them out. In mid-December, I replaced my SW4024 with a PS2524. I have been running the new inverter in daily service since then. BASIC PS INFO Is the PS a product line that customers will hate and wrenches will dread? My answer is an unequivocal NO. Far from being "a turkey," the PS is a very powerful and versatile inverter/charger right out of the box. The PS has a myriad of additional features that can be accessed and programmed. This is an extra bonus that is simply unheard of in an inverter/charger in this price range. In addition to my own enthusiastic reception of the PS, we have also been getting very positive reports from the field. The Trace PS Series was designed and built in response to a steady stream of requests for an entry level sine wave product that is simple to install and operate. By using the SW as a basic starting point, we were able to bring the PS to market with a relatively short development time. In the past, we found that a lot of people were not using all of the features that they paid for in the SW. In order to minimize the cost, we eliminated some of those features in the PS Series (Gen Start and Aux relays for example). One issue that arose during the development and testing of the PS was the availability of interested and qualified Beta testers. The more feedback we get from you, the better we will be able to continue meeting the needs of your customers. If you are interested in becoming a Beta tester for Trace products, please contact Tricia Hoffer at (360) 435-8826, extension 2083. Any suggestions you can offer in terms of new products or product improvement would be appreciated as well. The PS Series has very little user interface. There is a main switch that may be set in four possible positions: Off, Search, Search Defeated, and Battery Charger Only. There is a selector switch for the AC input, which allows the user to choose between 30 amps AC input (generator), or 50 amps AC input (utility). Trace designed the PS this way for two main reasons. The most apparent reason was to keep costs down. We really wanted to be able to offer the benefits of sine wave power at the lowest price possible. The second reason the PS has so little user interface is that many people have requested a less daunting inverter than our SW. This may be difficult to understand from a wrench's perspective, but some people simply don't want the information and are downright intimidated by all the menu choices of the SW. There are some major differences between the PS and SW series inverters. The new PS has a different transformer arrangement. The PS has five, rather than three as in the SW. The combination of our new multi-layer circuit board and an aluminum chassis (instead of steel) means that RF from the PS is lower than the SW. The new PS inverter is also fully screened to keep bugs and other small critters out. Many of the software upgrades written for the PS Series will eventually be incorporated into the next revision of the SW Series. A couple of these upgrades are worth noting, the AC pass-through now works even under certain inverter error conditions including; Over Current, Low Battery Cut Out, High Battery Cut Out, Transformer Overtemp, Heatsink Overtemp and Low Inverter volts. The LBX transfer mode is also changed, the grid is no longer allowed to charge batteries in this mode, thereby allowing your renewable source the opportunity to replensih the batteries and preventing needless inverter to grid transfers. The new PS software allows the RC8 to operate, the On/Off switch on the TM500 will also operate on this inverter. Trace PS Series inverters are available in 12 and 24 VDC input. The North American configurations produce 2.5 kVA. Trace also currently builds 220 VAC, 50 Hz versions of the PS Series for use in European countries (PS2212E and PS2524E). All PS Series inverters share their sine wave form approximation with over twenty five thousand of the SW inverters operating around the world. PS Series inverter/chargers are UL and cUL listed. They are CE compliant (European standard) and conform to CTIK (Australian) standards. PS Series inverter/chargers are fully line-tie capable and may be programmed to sell excess power back to the utility. An SWRC (Sine Wave Remote Control) or SWCA (Sine Wave Communications Adapter) is required to setup this feature. All of the standard adjustments and information available on the SW are also accessible on PS Series inverters when a SWRC or SWCA is installed. PS Series inverters may be stacked in series for 120/240 VAC, 60 Hz operation. This makes for a very economical 5.0 kVA, three-wire power system. They may also be stacked in parallel at the same voltage (i.e. 5.0 kVA at 120 VAC 60 Hz.) for twice the power. INSTALLING AND RUNNING A PS2524 When I installed the PS2524 at my house, I decided to try it blind, just like a "real world" customer. The installation was simple and easy. Everything was clearly marked and there was plenty of room for decent sized wires, although the AC ground termination point is rather hard to reach. Selecting the AC input and turning on the inverter was very straight forward, although the mode status indicator could be marked slightly better. The first thing I noticed about the PS was it's load starting ability. As soon as I installed it, I attempted to start my 1.5 hp jointer and my 1.5 hp air compressor at the same time. They both came on beautifully, so I added my 2-hp thickness planner with no adverse affects. The next challenge was to see how it would handle the washing machine spin cycle and the water pump at the same time. I set it up and got the same results without any problem. As near as I can tell, it starts and runs the same loads as well as the SW4024 did. The second thing I've noticed about the new inverter is that it's default search setting is 48 watts. Like almost everyone else who uses Trace inverters, off-grid users are used to a much lower, 16-watt, setting. The high wattage search setting proved to be inconvenient, and I decided that, electrically, I could afford to simply defeat the search. My system uses flooded lead acid batteries and the factory settings have proven to be just fine. All I really use the generator for is bulk charge anyway. Beyond wanting to alter the search settings, I have had no particular desire or need to access any of the menus or adjustments in the PS. RESPONSE TO BOB-O Perhaps my experience is quite different than Bob-O's, however I can think of dozens of SW systems that I've sold over the years where the only adjustment ever made was to lower the search wattage. Of course I can also think of hundreds of hours I've spent on the phone with clients who called and said "I pushed a whole lot of those buttons and now nothing seems to be working right, I want you to fix it please." Those are service calls too. It also seems to me that any reasonably qualified dealer or wrench should be able to make a simple determination, when designing a system, of who will need to buy the optional remote and who will not. Why should any of us charge the folks who can operate at the factory defaults for the SWRC? Bob-O is not alone in crying out for non-volatile memory. It would clearly be a bonus if adjustments to SW or PS settings were stored in memory during a DC shut down. Our Engineering Department maintains that this request is not as simple as we in the Marketing Department would like to think. Nevertheless, they continue to work on incorporating non-volatile memory into the SW and PS line-up. It is our hope that when non-volatile memory becomes available, it will be offered in a retrogradable version for existing SW and PS inverters. We cannot promise a release date for this long awaited improvement, however I assure you that I join you all in waiting patiently. Trace has also recognized the need to change the default search mode settings in the PS to 16 watts and will implement this change in the reasonably near future. I agree with Bob-O in that, with the introduction of the PS Series, it is a good idea for a conscientious dealer/installer to have an SWRC (or SWCA if they pack a lap top around to job sites) in their tool kit. When I was installing PV systems, I also had to carry specialized wire connection tools and multimeters. It appears that accumulating tools just comes with the territory. We've tried to make it easy for installers to get their hands on these tools. We are currently offering Trace dealers a free SWRC or SWCA or PSCB (conduit box) or $50 in cash for every PS inverter purchased through Authorized Trace Distributors between February 15 and March 15. As I said before, many people will happily install and operate the PS at factory defaults. For systems that require customization, the dealer/installer has a couple of choices. They can set up the inverter at installation time. If the DC is shut down, the inverter will not fail; it will simply default back to factory settings. If the client is close-by, a quick service call may not be too inconvenient. For local clients, you may want to lend out your SWRC so they can re-program their own inverters. Certainly those clients who are difficult to access and need customized inverter settings and features should be sold an SWRC or SWCA with their systems. Ensuring that the end-use client has all the appropriate parts, features and options for their unique requirements is simply good design, good business, and in the end is the responsibility of the system vendor. Michael Welch ------------------------ "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." Edward Abbey Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com Associate Editor, Home Power magazine Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From solar at eagle-access.net Sat Mar 11 16:59:25 2000 From: solar at eagle-access.net (Drake Chamberlin - Electrical Energy) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 13:59:25 -0800 Subject: RE Lab Experiment #1; BATTERY CABLES; Preliminary Results [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, Early results from the ACID TEST of various cables, which might be considered for battery connections, are now in. All cables have been in solution for at least a week at this point. CABLES TESTED: 2/0 AWG THW OR OIL RESISTANT I 600 V E70347 Made in Canada From Bob-O Schultz 2/0 ESSEX EXCELENE WELDING CABLE from Bob-O Schultz 4/0 COBRA WIRE & CABLE X-FLEX E163983 (UL) MTW OR THW OR AWM 600V, 105 DEGREES C (TRACE CABLE) from Quicksilver Electrical 4/0 CAROL PRENE WELDING CABLE 600V from Quicksilver Electrical 4/0 CAROL SUPER VU-TRON TYPE W PORTABLE POWER CABLE RHH OR RHW 90 DEGREES C DRY 75 DEGREES C WET 2000 V from Quicksilver Electrical 2/0 HYPALON DIESEL LOCOMOTIVE CABLE IEEE 383 --- CSA AWM 8A 90C 600V FTI TYPE USE OR RHH OR RHW FOR CT USE VW-I A.I.W. CORP from Electrical Energy 2/0 ESSEX THHN OR THWN 600V from Quicksilver Electrical RESULTS: The only cable to show any visible signs of deterioration is the THHN / THWN. The battery acid became dark and discolored within a day. Well before the end of a week, the solution became so dark that the cable sheath within was difficult to see. The THHN / THWN sheath was taken out of the acid for examination. It appears to be losing mass, but is still in tact. The sheath will go back into the solution. None of the other cable has shown any visible signs of deterioration. The battery acid for the other samples have shown no signs of discoloration. WHAT IS IMPLIED The implications, at this point, are that welding cable seems to hold up as well to acid as the cables that are presently approved for use in battery boxes. The THHN / THWN cable, which is not approved, and is not particularly popular for use as battery interconnects, has the least suitable insulation of the cable sheaths tested. The cables will be allowed to soak for a longer period. After this period, the cables will be subjected to testing with a mega ohm meter (Meggar) to determine if there is any loss of resistance to applied voltage. REMARKS It is probable that the tested insulation has already been subjected to more acid contact than a cable in a battery compartment would be during its entire period of use. Many approved cables have pure copper conductors within the insulation. The difference between the various cable is therefore mainly in the insulation. Although stranding size may vary, finely stranded cable is approved for use in battery compartments, even though fine strands are more susceptible to deterioration. The insulation on THHN / THWN wire demonstrates a susceptibility to acid, and would probably be the least suitable for use in battery boxes. Coincidentally, yesterday we went on a site visit to an existing system. The battery jumpers were made from type THHN cable. They seemed to be in excellent shape. The actual amount of acid contact with cables in battery boxes is likely to be small. The CAROL SUPER VU-TRON TYPE W PORTABLE POWER CABLE RHH OR RHW is a cable that has been accepted for use in battery compartments under current regulations. However it has an extremely thick sheath and is very awkward to work with. It is difficult to get two of these cables into 2" Schedule 80 PVC conduit. The experiment is not complete. These findings, although preliminary, demonstrate that no catastrophic results occur when welding cable is exposed to battery acid. Drake Chamberlin Electrical Energy (303)399-1025 Don Wallingford Quicksilver Electrical (303)833-4214 From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Sun Mar 12 13:09:47 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (Sharkey) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 10:09:47 -0800 Subject: Wrenches Profile Tweaks [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: Hey Listers; Thanks for your responses on the new Wrenches Profile site. I'm still massaging the cgi script that runs the survey, and have noticed one bug that probably is causing some (more) grey hairs. It seems that if you press the "ENTER" key while filling in the name/address/phone/etc. fields, the form gets sent off before you can finish filling it out. I'm working on finding a correction for this annoying little problem. In the meantime, if you forget and press the wrong key and get dumped out before the form is finished, just press your browser's "back" button, and complete the form. For any of you who missed the first announcement, go to to fill out the form and have all of your personal information right up there where the whole world can see it! Is it just my imgaination, or are we all about a ½ century old? -S - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From info at backwoodssolar.com Mon Mar 13 14:36:09 2000 From: info at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey - Backwoods Solar Electric) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 11:36:09 -0800 Subject: TV needs sinewave [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: For the first time ever a customer came in with a new TV that would NOT operate without true sinewave power. It is a Philips/Magnavox from Wal-Mart, about a 23 inch. We tried it on Powerstar and Trace and several models of smaller units and it simply would not turn on. Exeltech and Prosine ran it fine as well as SW2512. Maybe that will save someone else the fear that I had at first try, that perhaps I had blown the TV. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From michael.welch at homepower.com Tue Mar 14 13:26:34 2000 From: michael.welch at homepower.com (Michael Welch) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 10:26:34 -0800 Subject: Searchable data Base [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1373192361-951758591-953053468@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1373192361-951758591-953053468@topica.com> Message-ID: >Hello all - > This information is really great - It is also accumulating FAST. My >Wrenches mail folder is filling up! > Computer Gurus out there - Is it possible to transfer these Q&As in to >searchable database? This would be great for future reference and >eliminate redundant questions as time goes on and new wrenches get >hooked up. I think all of us will have trouble finding answeres we >vaugley remember as we see the same problems in the future - like 2 >years from now - it would be great further down the road(years) when we >are dealing with obsolete equipment and shakey memories - like wrench >altzheimers. > What a great database for HP to have on hand. > Can it be worked out? Best RON I don't think that we at HP could take on another potentially time consuming task like that, though I can't speak 100% for the rest of the crew here. If anyone else wants to take that on, I'd bet we could find a place to post it, maybe even Sharkey's new web presence for us. On the other hand, all these messages are archived at our list host's web site, and available for viewing. I have not tried to search for topics within the archives, has anyone else? Michael Welch ------------------------ "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." Edward Abbey Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com Associate Editor, Home Power magazine Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 From sunpwr at jps.net Tue Mar 14 13:28:40 2000 From: sunpwr at jps.net (Chuck Heath) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 10:28:40 -0800 Subject: TV needs sinewave [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: PV Pioneer Steve Willey and his supportive wife Elizabeth wrote.... >For the first time ever a customer came in with a new TV that would NOT >operate without true sinewave power. It is a Philips/Magnavox from >Wal-Mart, about a 23 inch. We tried it on Powerstar and Trace and several >models of smaller units and it simply would not turn on. Exeltech and >Prosine ran it fine as well as SW2512. Maybe that will save someone else >the fear that I had at first try, that perhaps I had blown the TV. Steve - when you say: >We tried it on Powerstar and Trace and several >models of smaller units and it simply would not turn on. Should I assume you mean the SW-4024 and 24v. Powerstar models, or some other flavor? What were the Exeltech and Prosine models that did work? Seems odd that it would not work on one Trace but did with a Trace SW2512. Cordially, Chuck Heath, from my tiny mountaintop cabin powered by sunshine, where "our local park" is called Yosemite. sunpwr at jps.net - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From cvsolar at aol.com Tue Mar 14 13:28:46 2000 From: cvsolar at aol.com (by way of Michael Welch) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 10:28:46 -0800 Subject: TV needs sinewave [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: Steve, It sounds like a lot of modern electronic devices use the peak to peak pulses of a sine wave for some kind of control purpose. When the wave a modified square wave or top of the sinewave is squared off for any reason, it seems to have a negative affect on those problem loads. There are probably as many different control designs as there are electrical engineers so it is the luck of the draw whether something works or not. I did speak with a Honeywell engineer who designed the control circuit on my gas furnace and he was very interested in what we are doing with inverters and said that although he couldn't think of a quick fix for my controller, he would certainly keep the inverter problem in mind in future designs. My e-meter says I am losing ground getting my batteries charged on this thin cloudy day. I better shed this computer load. (Our generator died - voltage regulator burned out so we are on straight solar and wind for awhile.... hopefully til next November) John Blittersdorf Central Vermont Solar and Wind - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From cvsolar at aol.com Tue Mar 14 13:28:49 2000 From: cvsolar at aol.com (by way of Michael Welch) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 10:28:49 -0800 Subject: Trace C40 [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: Hi gang, I have a C40 that lost its accumulated amp hour without there having been a power interruption. Has anyone else experienced this? Also I installed a Morningstar ProStar-12 and it has dropped off line several times for no apparent reason. Power in the main battery bank (24vdc) did drop to probably 21 volts at one point and the SW4024 had disconnected at low battery cutout .. and possibly reconnected and disconnected a few times with a 1600 watt water heater turned on. Could the voltage fluctuations caused by the inverter and loads have something to do with it? This customer was one who needed power "right now" as he had completed a house and was hooking up the water and needed power quick. Unfortunately I didn't have time for the energy efficiency education up front so his expectations were way too high. He even wanted electric baseboard heat!!!!!!!!!!!! I gave him the info on what could be run with the system but he didn't listen. He bought and installed a wood hot air furnace with a continuous blower at 400 watts and an electric hot water heater. The thru the wall vented propane heater is still not hooked up. Now this guy is talking about bringing in the grid. I'll probably have a nice system to sell to someone else at a good price. Oh well, win some, lose some. The worse part is that he will probably bad mouth RE. John Blittersdorf CVSolar - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From toddcory at jps.net Tue Mar 14 13:28:55 2000 From: toddcory at jps.net (Todd Cory) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 10:28:55 -0800 Subject: Trace C40 [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: Hi John, I don't mean to be too critical, but the FIRST thing I do before designing or building anything for a customer is to have a very long and quite detailed meeting aimed at educating then about what a RE system can do for them and what it cannot. I try to get them to understand about the loads they are used to using and compare that with the available power from a RE system... and say shocking things like "can you get your current electric bill down to $15 a month"? Another one of my favorite shocking statements is to say "...and for your $15,000.00 investment, you can expect about $10 to $15.00 a month worth of equivalent grid power. This gets their eyes WIDE open and makes the reality of how little energy they will get very clear. Then I counter this with education about what CAN be done with very little energy like using compact fluorescent lights, energy efficient refrigeration, non-electric space heating, propane dryers (or clothes lines) etc. My goal is to get them as informed as possible so they can make educated and intelligent decisions as to whether they are willing to live within an energy budget AND be responsible for flying their system successfully with knowledge of it's abilities and limitations. THEN and only then, will I begin the process of load calculations and system design. If they appear to not be willing or able to work within a system's design, I will not build it for them. As I have often said, designing and installing the system is the easy part, educating the customer is where the real work begins. It does the field of Renewable Energy no service at all to have customers out there using systems that, while operating within their design, fail due to uneducated idiots running them. It is hard to believe even installing resistance electric heating in a renewable energy home (unless it is a diversion load). These customers go a long ways to help perpetuate the myth that "solar does not work". I would rather do less work than install systems for people that will be unhappy with them. Todd Cory -- Todd Cory KE6SXS toddcory at jps.net Bald Mountain Solar P.O. Box 689 Mt. Shasta, Ca. 96067 (530) 926-1079 From info at backwoodssolar.com Tue Mar 14 13:29:23 2000 From: info at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey - Backwoods Solar Electric) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 10:29:23 -0800 Subject: TV needs sinewave [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: I stated that particular new TV model would NOT work on modified wave inverters including Powerstar UPG700, Cherokee and AC genius portables, which the customer had bought and tried in turn. He came back, with TV and inverters and I tried the same here and then tried with a Trace DR modified waveform inverter. I established that at least the particular Philips/Magnavox from Wal-Mart that the customer brought in would not even start on modified waveform (though it did pull a large momentary surge that worried me). Then I went to an Exeltech 250 true sine wave, and it did work fine. I also tested it on our own power system, from Trace SW2512 and it ran fine. I also had a Prosine 1000 Statpower true sine wave 1000 watt to test, but I think perhaps I did not because I think the Prosine 1000 on display had input voltage that did not match my test battery, but I conclude that the true sinewave is required for that television set. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems A catalog business on a mountain 2 miles from utility lines, powered entirely by our catalog products. IF UTILITY POWER IS 1/2 MILE OR MORE FROM YOUR SITE, get our free 160 page solar-electric Planning Guide/Catalog. (Your postal address required - Our list is never given or sold). Phone(208)263-4290 Fax (208) 265-4788 in Idaho, USA ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck Heath To: Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 5:18 AM Subject: Re: TV needs sinewave [RE-wrenches] > PV Pioneer Steve Willey and his supportive wife Elizabeth wrote.... > >For the first time ever a customer came in with a new TV that would NOT > >operate without true sinewave power. It is a Philips/Magnavox from > >Wal-Mart, about a 23 inch. We tried it on Powerstar and Trace and several > >models of smaller units and it simply would not turn on. Exeltech and > >Prosine ran it fine as well as SW2512. Maybe that will save someone else > >the fear that I had at first try, that perhaps I had blown the TV. > > Steve - when you say: > >We tried it on Powerstar and Trace and several > >models of smaller units and it simply would not turn on. > Should I assume you mean the SW-4024 and 24v. Powerstar models, or some > other flavor? What were the Exeltech and Prosine models that did work? > > Seems odd that it would not work on one Trace but did with a Trace SW2512. > > Cordially, Chuck Heath, from my tiny mountaintop cabin powered by > sunshine, where "our local park" is called Yosemite. sunpwr at jps.net > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > _________________________________________________________ > Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From microhydro at dplus.net Tue Mar 14 13:29:27 2000 From: microhydro at dplus.net (Ron Macleod) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 10:29:27 -0800 Subject: Searchable data Base [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: Hello all - This information is really great - It is also accumulating FAST. My Wrenches mail folder is filling up! Computer Gurus out there - Is it possible to transfer these Q&As in to searchable database? This would be great for future reference and eliminate redundant questions as time goes on and new wrenches get hooked up. I think all of us will have trouble finding answeres we vaugley remember as we see the same problems in the future - like 2 years from now - it would be great further down the road(years) when we are dealing with obsolete equipment and shakey memories - like wrench altzheimers. What a great database for HP to have on hand. Can it be worked out? Best RON - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 From bob at energyoutfitters.com Wed Mar 15 12:08:16 2000 From: bob at energyoutfitters.com (Bob Maynard) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 09:08:16 -0800 Subject: Trace C40 [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1377969718-212058698-953140096@topica.com> Todd, Very well put, we handle our customers precisely the same way and it allows them the proper perspective when making the decision to use renewables. Bob Maynard Energy Outfitters Todd Cory wrote: > Part 1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain) > Encoding: 7bit - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From amazonpower at hotmail.com Wed Mar 15 14:25:51 2000 From: amazonpower at hotmail.com (donna fischer) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 11:25:51 -0800 Subject: wrenches survey [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.8978270-951758591-953148351@topica.com> Hi, I filled out the survey form and then it wouldn't go anywhere because of 'internal errors'. the message said I should let you know - ----Original Message Follows---- OK, who are all these "wrench" folks, anyway? That's a question that has come up several times as I managed the wrench list. Sharkey has been kind enough to set up a web presence for the RE-Wrench list participants. We hope that all of you will go there and fill out the form to add your bio data so that we can all know a little about you and your business. Please go to: >From there, you can click to the form that needs to be filled out. I hope that all of you will take care of this. The form asks for a lot of info, the personal info is not required but would be nice to have. Michael Welch ------------------------ "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." Edward Abbey Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com Associate Editor, Home Power magazine Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _____________________________________________________________ Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! http://www.topica.com/topica20 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From quicksilver at eagle-access.net Wed Mar 15 18:50:50 2000 From: quicksilver at eagle-access.net (Don Wallingford) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 15:50:50 -0800 Subject: Trace C40 [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.617902710-951758591-953164250@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 3827 bytes Desc: not available URL: From quicksilver at eagle-access.net Wed Mar 15 18:56:15 2000 From: quicksilver at eagle-access.net (Don Wallingford) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 15:56:15 -0800 Subject: Fw: Profiles [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1195315752-951758591-953164575@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 1973 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cvsolar at aol.com Wed Mar 15 20:05:10 2000 From: cvsolar at aol.com (cvsolar at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 17:05:10 -0800 Subject: Trace C40 [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.575709174-212058698-953168710@topica.com> Todd, You are totally right about the education needing to be done first. The good news from my problem customer is that after the fact he is allowing me to educate him now . He still likes the idea of being off grid and with the electric hot water heater disconnected, his system is running relatively normal. They are going to install a wood heating stove in the livingroom (they were going to have a fireplace in their original plan) to minimize running the hot air furnace. He may still hook up to the grid if the cost is low enough and keep the system as a backup and net metering solar. The good news yesterday as I checked my messages is that I have a new customer lined up who hasn't finished planning his new house and wants info first. This one will get done in the right order. To all of you out there, don't worry about being too critical. The reason we have this forum is to learn and possibly reaffirm what we do know. Thanks for the comments. John Blittersdorf Central Vermont Solar and WInd - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Thu Mar 16 01:19:49 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (Sharkey) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 22:19:49 -0800 Subject: Fw: Profiles [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1405095546-951758591-953187589@topica.com> Hi Don; Editing your profile can be done two ways. If you have a lot of changes in many of the fields, go fill out the form again and submit it. Make sure to mention at the bottom of the form that you want to replace your existing profile. If all you want to do is add or change the comments or add a comma somewhere, just e-mail me the changes and I'll do the edits. Either way, I have to copy-and-paste your profile into a document and post it to the server myself. I haven't had time to work on the script to make it all automatic yet. When I do, there will probably be a 'change profile' form for you to fill out. -S - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Thu Mar 16 01:19:50 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (Sharkey) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 22:19:50 -0800 Subject: wrenches survey [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.449853507-212058698-953187590@topica.com> Wrenches (and particularly Donna) Due to some weird esoteric Unix error, the profile form at , the form wouldn't mail off like to should. Although the SYSOP couldn't supply an adequate explanation as to what was wrong (spare characters in the perl path), it's working now, so feel free to fill out the form and send it along. Sorry for any inconvenience... -S - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From toddcory at jps.net Tue Mar 21 11:07:43 2000 From: toddcory at jps.net (Todd Cory) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 08:07:43 -0800 Subject: suggestions for controller needed [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.903787073-951758591-953654863@topica.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ozsolar at ipa.net Tue Mar 21 11:29:15 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 08:29:15 -0800 Subject: Explorer Products? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.604865671-951758591-953656155@topica.com> Wes, We steer people towards the new generation of Energy Star Appliances. At our grid connected house we have a Amana 20.5 cu. ft with bottom freezer that uses around 1.2 - 1.5 kWh per day depending on the season. This is an average using a Brand Power meter hooked up for weeks at time. This fridge is really big and any local appliance repair guy can work on it. I'd hate to take a DC Sunfrost to someone around here for repair. Its yellow energy sticker rates it at 576 kWh per year (576/365=1.58 kWh per day). I don't know how this compares to the SunFrost but I have heard that the Vestfrost uses more than it is rated at. Does anyone else have some numbers on them? The propane models that I have dealt with are very small. On a business note we prefer not to sell our customers appliances. We look at our job as either replacing or supplementing the utility. We make lots of recommendations regarding appliances and we do carry quite a few styles of compact fluorescent lamps. Most of our customers understand that and when the budget is willing they like the idea if having standard "Sears" appliances in their houses. This wasn't possible even a few years ago but standard appliances have made some real progress lately. Thanks Travis Creswell Ozark Solar Neosho, Missouri ---------- >From: Wes Kennedy >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Subject: Explorer Products? [RE-wrenches] >Date: Thu, Mar 9, 2000, 12:54 PM > >Hey gang, > >Designing the appliance package is a big part of the load profile. >Anyone have any experience with the Explorer line of propane refers? >As a related issue, do most folks design in propane, super efficient >DC, or the newest generation of energy star "conventional" >refrigerators? > >thanks! > >Wes > >Wes Kennedy >Evolutionary Technologist > >"Your philosophy is not what you believe, it's how you live!" >-j rubin >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: > >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >for info contact: >_____________________________________________________________ >Want to find the best email lists? Check out the Topica 20! >http://www.topica.com/topica20 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From indeppower at aol.com Tue Mar 21 12:32:15 2000 From: indeppower at aol.com (indeppower at aol.com) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 09:32:15 -0800 Subject: Explorer Products? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.732991645-212058698-953659935@topica.com> In a message dated 3/21/2000 11:29:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, ozsolar at ipa.net writes: << I don't know how this compares to the SunFrost but I have heard that the Vestfrost uses more than it is rated at. Does anyone else have some numbers on them? >> My experience with Sun Frost units over 12 years has been that they consistently use what Sun Frost says they should use, or less, at a given room temperature. I have measured my own RF19 Sun Frost at 720 watt hours per day. The complaint people have with Sun Frost is not in their efficiency (nothing I have seen short of a custom made unit will come close) but their poor design in other areas. Such as their door seals, which have been poor over the years and recently got worse. Dave Palumbo IP&L - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From bob at energyoutfitters.com Tue Mar 21 13:26:06 2000 From: bob at energyoutfitters.com (Bob Maynard) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 10:26:06 -0800 Subject: suggestions for controller needed [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1117131176-951758591-953663166@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 1771 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ozsolar at ipa.net Tue Mar 21 15:33:58 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 12:33:58 -0800 Subject: suggestions for controller needed [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1604847361-212058698-953670838@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 1671 bytes Desc: not available URL: From j.lamb at pecorp.com Tue Mar 21 15:56:35 2000 From: j.lamb at pecorp.com (j.lamb at pecorp.com) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 12:56:35 -0800 Subject: suggestions for controller needed [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1870315255-212058698-953672195@topica.com> Check out www.hollysolar.com for some bright white leds that take a lot less energy to use for a nightlight. I have been very happy with them. > ---------- > From: Todd Cory[SMTP:toddcory at jps.net] > Reply To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 10:07 AM > To: Wrenches > Subject: suggestions for controller needed [RE-wrenches] > > Hi everyone, > > I am looking for suggestions for a low current 12 volt PV controller. This > will be for a small standalone night time lighting system, with a 5 watt > compact fluorescent for the load and a 75 watt PV. It would need to have a > LV disconnect AND provisions for shutting the load off during daylight > hours. > > Does anyone know of dependable controllers that are capable of these > features, or will I have to buy and configure them separately? > > Thanks, Todd > -- > Todd Cory > KE6SXS > toddcory at jps.net > Bald Mountain Solar > P.O. Box 689 > Mt. Shasta, Ca. 96067 > (530) 926-1079 > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of > previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: > _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your > in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From carlson at pe.net Tue Mar 21 20:14:07 2000 From: carlson at pe.net (Scott Carlson) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 17:14:07 -0800 Subject: suggestions for controller needed [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1982585899-212058698-953687647@topica.com> Hi Todd, The Trace C-12 or if you plan to use a motion sensor then what about the Sun Saver -6. I used these at San Onofre State beach and they seem to do well for me with motion sensors with the built in light sensor. I believe I used the 12 volt 34600 Sunelco sensors. I have noticed about a 5 percent failure out of the box with the Sun Savers though and it has to do with the load side not passing current inside the controller when amps exceeded approx. 1. Scott Carlson ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 12:56 PM Subject: RE: suggestions for controller needed [RE-wrenches] > Check out www.hollysolar.com for some bright white leds that take a lot less > energy to use for a nightlight. I have been very happy with them. > > > ---------- > > From: Todd Cory[SMTP:toddcory at jps.net] > > Reply To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > > Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 10:07 AM > > To: Wrenches > > Subject: suggestions for controller needed [RE-wrenches] > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > I am looking for suggestions for a low current 12 volt PV controller. This > > will be for a small standalone night time lighting system, with a 5 watt > > compact fluorescent for the load and a 75 watt PV. It would need to have a > > LV disconnect AND provisions for shutting the load off during daylight > > hours. > > > > Does anyone know of dependable controllers that are capable of these > > features, or will I have to buy and configure them separately? > > > > Thanks, Todd > > -- > > Todd Cory > > KE6SXS > > toddcory at jps.net > > Bald Mountain Solar > > P.O. Box 689 > > Mt. Shasta, Ca. 96067 > > (530) 926-1079 > > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of > > previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: > > _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your > > in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 > > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > _________________________________________________________ > Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From sunwise at win.bright.net Tue Mar 21 23:00:21 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (sunwise at win.bright.net) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 20:00:21 -0800 Subject: Explorer Products? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1974196422-951758591-953697621@topica.com> indeppower at aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 3/21/2000 11:29:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, > ozsolar at ipa.net writes: > > << I don't > know how this compares to the SunFrost but I have heard that the Vestfrost > uses more than it is rated at. Does anyone else have some numbers on them? > >> > > My experience with Sun Frost units over 12 years has been that they > consistently use what Sun Frost says they should use, or less, at a given > room temperature. I have measured my own RF19 Sun Frost at 720 watt hours per > day. > The complaint people have with Sun Frost is not in their efficiency > (nothing I have seen short of a custom made unit will come close) but their > poor design in other areas. Such as their door seals, which have been poor > over the years and recently got worse. > Dave Palumbo > IP&L > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > _________________________________________________________ > Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 Greetings Sunfrost/Frig discussers, I have been following some of the more recent discussions revolving around refrigerator efficiencies. Just thought I would mention that CREST has a discussion group that has included this refrigeration efficiency topic of late (including Sunfrost). http://solstice.org Go to discussion groups and then to PV users. Kurt Nelson - SOLutions - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From bill_loesch at compuserve.com Wed Mar 22 08:28:26 2000 From: bill_loesch at compuserve.com (bill loesch) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 05:28:26 -0800 Subject: Explorer Products? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.54147953-951758591-953731706@topica.com> > We steer people towards the new generation of Energy Star Appliances. At our grid connected house we have a Amana 20.5 cu. ft with bottom freezer that uses around 1.2 - 1.5 kWh per day depending on the season.< Hi Travis, Glad to hear you were able to better the yellow sticker (EPA?, DOE?) rating. Please refresh my memory, doesn't the bottom freezer inherently use a bit more power? I personally would much prefer the more ergonomically efficient bottom freezer. In almost 50 years on this earth, I've never had the need to buy a new fridge. Both houses came "fridge furnished" and the current one a 21cu ft 1.9 kWh (winter) daily user is still ticking. The meter was a Watts Up unit introduced to me by a future customer, reportedly $100 at RealGoods, I have no experience, yet, with the Brand product. In a former life, I performed energy efficiency testing on storage hot water heaters to verify the yellow sticker ratings. During meetings with my coharts in other industries, I discovered that a huge fraction of the lifetime residential energy budget went to the refrigerator since the builder uses the cheapest (and most likely low efficiency) unit he can find. Moreover, the refrigerator can outlast the HWH and because of the parts count, the fridge is oftentimes economically repairable. One proposal in the 70's was to mandate energy efficiency numbers much like is done with cars. As you see it never happened. Bill Loesch bill_loesch at compuserve.com 314 631 1094 St Louis Solar St Louis MO - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From ozsolar at ipa.net Wed Mar 22 09:32:57 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 06:32:57 -0800 Subject: Explorer Products? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1908078532-951758591-953735577@topica.com> Bill, I've never heard that a bottom freezer uses more but I'm like you in that I really prefer the freezer on the bottom. A customer emailed Maytag about the Neptune front loading washer. They replied that it uses .096 kWh per load. Of course Maytag might not be too happy if they found it was on a RE system. During a phone call to Amana about my fridge they told me that they do not recommend that their appliances be hooked up to "Solar Panels". I was curious about disabling the self defrost feature which seems to use around .25kWh per day. Does anyone get the "Doug Rye" Show? He has a great talk show on one of the Local AM stations around here on Saturday mornings but he is always welcoming new stations to his show. It's a call in show where he helps people figure out how to cut their energy bills. He describes himself as the "King of Caulk and Talk". He is really pretty good even if he spends most of his time pushing ground source heat pumps and all electric houses. This is understandable since his sponsors are the Local Electric CO-OP. Anyway, the point I am trying to get to leads into to what you are talking about. According to him, something like 95% of all new houses are built with the lowest efficiency appliances available! Until Later Travis Creswell Ozark Solar Neosho, MO ---------- >From: bill loesch >To: "INTERNET:RE-wrenches at topica.com" >Subject: Re: Explorer Products? [RE-wrenches] >Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000, 7:28 AM > >> >We steer people towards the new generation of Energy Star Appliances. At >our grid connected house we have a Amana 20.5 cu. ft with bottom freezer >that uses around 1.2 - 1.5 kWh per day depending on the season.< > >Hi Travis, > >Glad to hear you were able to better the yellow sticker (EPA?, DOE?) >rating. >Please refresh my memory, doesn't the bottom freezer inherently use a bit >more power? >I personally would much prefer the more ergonomically efficient bottom >freezer. In almost 50 years on this earth, I've never had the need to buy a >new fridge. Both houses came "fridge furnished" and the current one a 21cu >ft 1.9 kWh (winter) daily user is still ticking. The meter was a Watts Up >unit introduced to me by a future customer, reportedly $100 at RealGoods, I >have no experience, yet, with the Brand product. > >In a former life, I performed energy efficiency testing on storage hot >water heaters to verify the yellow sticker ratings. During meetings with my >coharts in other industries, I discovered that a huge fraction of the >lifetime residential energy budget went to the refrigerator since the >builder uses the cheapest (and most likely low efficiency) unit he can >find. Moreover, the refrigerator can outlast the HWH and because of the >parts count, the fridge is oftentimes economically repairable. One proposal >in the 70's was to mandate energy efficiency numbers much like is done with >cars. As you see it never happened. > >Bill Loesch >bill_loesch at compuserve.com >314 631 1094 >St Louis Solar >St Louis MO >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: > >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >for info contact: >_________________________________________________________ >Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From toddcory at jps.net Wed Mar 22 09:41:02 2000 From: toddcory at jps.net (Todd Cory) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 06:41:02 -0800 Subject: Explorer Products? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1399558098-951758591-953736062@topica.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cpae1 at aol.com Wed Mar 22 09:54:09 2000 From: cpae1 at aol.com (cpae1 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 06:54:09 -0800 Subject: Explorer Products? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1499448055-951758591-953736849@topica.com> Hello everyone, Now that the subject has come up about washing machines running on RE, I'd like to let you all know that a customer of mine who purchased a Frigidare Gallery washer had problems getting the thing to start on mod sine wave after about a months worth of running. He found out that the electronic circuitry didn't like mod sine wave and fryed it. Now it won't start at all, he has to run it from gen. power only.(this is after I was told there would be no problem running it on mod. sine wave safely) Oops!! Almost lost a customer for good. So if you have customers wanting to run the mainline newer washers on RE, make sure it's run on sine wave only, or get a Staber. They run on anything. Frank Fowler Crystal Pines Alternative Energy Sierra foothills just 20 miles southeast of Chico, CA. - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From solarbeacon at email.msn.com Wed Mar 22 10:11:05 2000 From: solarbeacon at email.msn.com (Bill Roush) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 07:11:05 -0800 Subject: suggestions for controller needed [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1743309871-212058698-953737865@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 2025 bytes Desc: not available URL: From toddcory at jps.net Wed Mar 22 10:28:01 2000 From: toddcory at jps.net (Todd Cory) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 07:28:01 -0800 Subject: lighting efficiency [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.545457618-951758591-953738881@topica.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ellison at gisco.net Wed Mar 22 10:41:22 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 07:41:22 -0800 Subject: Maytag, bottom freezers [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1256307516-212058698-953739682@topica.com> Hello Wrenches, >From a conversation with someone at a local Maytag dealer, they may say that the Neptune uses ".096 kWh per load" and I don't know any different. However its water use is very high, because it constantly pumps out soapy water and replaces it with fresh water to keep sudsing down. It definitely will make your water pump run and risk running your well dry, if you don't have good well. My understand is also that bottom freezers use more power. If the compressor is located at the bottom it would make sense due to the heat generated. That "Doug Rye" Show scares me, I guess I spend too much time preaching efficiency. (I hope no one listens to him)! Just my 2 cents worth.... Bob Ellison -----Original Message----- From: Travis Creswell [mailto:ozsolar at ipa.net] Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2000 9:33 AM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Re: Explorer Products? [RE-wrenches] Bill, I've never heard that a bottom freezer uses more but I'm like you in that I really prefer the freezer on the bottom. A customer emailed Maytag about the Neptune front loading washer. They replied that it uses .096 kWh per load. Of course Maytag might not be too happy if they found it was on a RE system. During a phone call to Amana about my fridge they told me that they do not recommend that their appliances be hooked up to "Solar Panels". I was curious about disabling the self defrost feature which seems to use around .25kWh per day. Does anyone get the "Doug Rye" Show? He has a great talk show on one of the Local AM stations around here on Saturday mornings but he is always welcoming new stations to his show. It's a call in show where he helps people figure out how to cut their energy bills. He describes himself as the "King of Caulk and Talk". He is really pretty good even if he spends most of his time pushing ground source heat pumps and all electric houses. This is understandable since his sponsors are the Local Electric CO-OP. - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From ellison at gisco.net Wed Mar 22 10:51:41 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 07:51:41 -0800 Subject: lighting efficiency [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1294369846-951758591-953740301@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 2049 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ian.woofenden at homepower.com Wed Mar 22 12:09:05 2000 From: ian.woofenden at homepower.com (Ian Woofenden) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 09:09:05 -0800 Subject: Maytag, [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1194671869-951758591-953744945@topica.com> Bob Ellison said: >>From a conversation with someone at a local Maytag dealer, they may say that >the Neptune uses ".096 kWh per load" and I don't know any different. However I've measured ours at 105 WH per load with a Brand meter. We really love this machine. It's big, rugged, and quiet. We run it on an SW4024. The inverter must be out of search (even on the lowest setting) to run the whole cycle uninterrupted, and it is a phantom after the cycle is done, until you open and close the door (wish we could fix that). >its water use is very high, because it constantly pumps out soapy water and >replaces it with fresh water to keep sudsing down. It definitely will make >your water pump run and risk running your well dry, if you don't have good >well. I have no data on the water use. Overall, front loaders are said to use much less water than top loaders. We haven't noticed any more water use than our White-Westinghouse front loader. the AEEE appliance book might have water use measurements. Ian Ian Woofenden , Fax: 360-293-7034 Associate Editor, Home Power magazine, The Hands-On Journal Of Home-Made Power Editors are Professional Idiots - We misunderstand text so our readers won't. HP subscriptions: $22.50 per year, PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA 800-707-6585 (US), 541-512-0220, or download current issue at - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From carlson at pe.net Wed Mar 22 19:49:35 2000 From: carlson at pe.net (Scott Carlson) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 16:49:35 -0800 Subject: Explorer Products? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1498280932-212058698-953772575@topica.com> Travis, Do not disconnect the self defrost feature!!!! It will work fine for about 2 days but the efficiency of the unit quickly drops. If anything change the defrost timer to one with a longer setting or make sure it has a temp sensor located on the coil to prematurely stop defrost. Scott Carlson ----- Original Message ----- From: Travis Creswell To: Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2000 6:32 AM Subject: Re: Explorer Products? [RE-wrenches] > Bill, > > I've never heard that a bottom freezer uses more but I'm like you in that I > really prefer the freezer on the bottom. A customer emailed Maytag about > the Neptune front loading washer. They replied that it uses .096 kWh per > load. Of course Maytag might not be too happy if they found it was on a RE > system. During a phone call to Amana about my fridge they told me that they > do not recommend that their appliances be hooked up to "Solar Panels". I > was curious about disabling the self defrost feature which seems to use > around .25kWh per day. > > Does anyone get the "Doug Rye" Show? He has a great talk show on one of the > Local AM stations around here on Saturday mornings but he is always > welcoming new stations to his show. It's a call in show where he helps > people figure out how to cut their energy bills. He describes himself as > the "King of Caulk and Talk". He is really pretty good even if he spends > most of his time pushing ground source heat pumps and all electric houses. > This is understandable since his sponsors are the Local Electric CO-OP. > Anyway, the point I am trying to get to leads into to what you are talking > about. According to him, something like 95% of all new houses are built with > the lowest efficiency appliances available! > > Until Later > Travis Creswell > Ozark Solar > Neosho, MO > ---------- > >From: bill loesch > >To: "INTERNET:RE-wrenches at topica.com" > >Subject: Re: Explorer Products? [RE-wrenches] > >Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000, 7:28 AM > > > > >> > >We steer people towards the new generation of Energy Star Appliances. At > >our grid connected house we have a Amana 20.5 cu. ft with bottom freezer > >that uses around 1.2 - 1.5 kWh per day depending on the season.< > > > >Hi Travis, > > > >Glad to hear you were able to better the yellow sticker (EPA?, DOE?) > >rating. > >Please refresh my memory, doesn't the bottom freezer inherently use a bit > >more power? > >I personally would much prefer the more ergonomically efficient bottom > >freezer. In almost 50 years on this earth, I've never had the need to buy a > >new fridge. Both houses came "fridge furnished" and the current one a 21cu > >ft 1.9 kWh (winter) daily user is still ticking. The meter was a Watts Up > >unit introduced to me by a future customer, reportedly $100 at RealGoods, I > >have no experience, yet, with the Brand product. > > > >In a former life, I performed energy efficiency testing on storage hot > >water heaters to verify the yellow sticker ratings. During meetings with my > >coharts in other industries, I discovered that a huge fraction of the > >lifetime residential energy budget went to the refrigerator since the > >builder uses the cheapest (and most likely low efficiency) unit he can > >find. Moreover, the refrigerator can outlast the HWH and because of the > >parts count, the fridge is oftentimes economically repairable. One proposal > >in the 70's was to mandate energy efficiency numbers much like is done with > >cars. As you see it never happened. > > > >Bill Loesch > >bill_loesch at compuserve.com > >314 631 1094 > >St Louis Solar > >St Louis MO > >- - - - - - - > >To send a message to the list use: > > > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: > > > > >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > > >for info contact: > >_________________________________________________________ > >Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > _________________________________________________________ > Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From carlson at pe.net Wed Mar 22 19:49:35 2000 From: carlson at pe.net (Scott Carlson) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 16:49:35 -0800 Subject: Explorer Products? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1019091268-212058698-953772575@topica.com> Hi all, Here in Southern California, I am finding refrigerators below 500 kWh per year (sticker rating)and approx. 21 cubic foot in size, with the freezer on top and at a price of approx. $900.00. I believe it is at Circuit City or another large appliance retailer. Scott Carlson ----- Original Message ----- From: bill loesch To: Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2000 5:28 AM Subject: Re: Explorer Products? [RE-wrenches] > We steer people towards the new generation of Energy Star Appliances. At our grid connected house we have a Amana 20.5 cu. ft with bottom freezer that uses around 1.2 - 1.5 kWh per day depending on the season.< Hi Travis, Glad to hear you were able to better the yellow sticker (EPA?, DOE?) rating. Please refresh my memory, doesn't the bottom freezer inherently use a bit more power? I personally would much prefer the more ergonomically efficient bottom freezer. In almost 50 years on this earth, I've never had the need to buy a new fridge. Both houses came "fridge furnished" and the current one a 21cu ft 1.9 kWh (winter) daily user is still ticking. The meter was a Watts Up unit introduced to me by a future customer, reportedly $100 at RealGoods, I have no experience, yet, with the Brand product. In a former life, I performed energy efficiency testing on storage hot water heaters to verify the yellow sticker ratings. During meetings with my coharts in other industries, I discovered that a huge fraction of the lifetime residential energy budget went to the refrigerator since the builder uses the cheapest (and most likely low efficiency) unit he can find. Moreover, the refrigerator can outlast the HWH and because of the parts count, the fridge is oftentimes economically repairable. One proposal in the 70's was to mandate energy efficiency numbers much like is done with cars. As you see it never happened. Bill Loesch bill_loesch at compuserve.com 314 631 1094 St Louis Solar St Louis MO - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From ozsolar at ipa.net Wed Mar 22 20:44:29 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 17:44:29 -0800 Subject: Explorer Products? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1061473983-212058698-953775869@topica.com> Scott, That's exactly why I haven't. I was afraid that I would ice up my coil since we are usually very humid around here. Tell me more about these under 500 kWh per year 21 cu. ft. models. We don't have Circuit City's around here. Ian, That's good to hear about the Neptune doing fine on your SW. I have a customer with one on a dual SW4048 system that seems to be doing just fine also. Travis Creswell Ozark Solar >From: Scott Carlson >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Subject: Re: Explorer Products? [RE-wrenches] >Date: Wed, Mar 22, 2000, 6:49 PM > >Travis, >Do not disconnect the self defrost feature!!!! It will work fine for about >2 days but the efficiency of the unit quickly drops. If anything change >the defrost timer to one with a longer setting or make sure it has a temp >sensor located on the coil to prematurely stop defrost. > >Scott Carlson - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From ozsolar at ipa.net Wed Mar 22 21:32:02 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 18:32:02 -0800 Subject: $10,000 for 30 kWh per day! [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1436067335-951758591-953778722@topica.com> Hello Wrenches, Did anyone catch the latest Real Goods (spring 2000) where John Schaeffer in response to a blistering letter from a another reader says that he is installing a system in his house that will produce 30 kWh per day and cost $10,000. This includes $2,000 worth of batteries. John Schaeffer says "I am in the process of building a house that will have a 5kW PV array and with federal and state incentives this system will cost me $10,000 to purchase and install for everything." I wouldn't have taken offense to this but he almost cost me a job. I though I was going to loose a real nice job when a customer asked me " why their system was costing over $20,000 to produce 8 kWh per day when Mr. Schaeffer could make 30 kWh a day for $10,000". I told her that there was no way that even with tax incentives could that be done. She agreed and sent me a check for the deposit and that was that. Maybe, just maybe a grid tied battery less system could be that cheap with tax incentives but I doubt it. Any comments? I hate to be the first one to slam an RE company by name so maybe I deserve some harsh comments. If anyone is interested and doesn't have a Real Goods I will have my secretary type the whole letter up and email to the RE-Wrenches List. Travis Creswell Ozark Solar - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From bill_loesch at compuserve.com Thu Mar 23 07:00:19 2000 From: bill_loesch at compuserve.com (bill loesch) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 04:00:19 -0800 Subject: Explorer Products? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1602975042-951758591-953812819@topica.com> >I was afraid that I would ice up my coil since we are usually very humid around here.< Hi Ian and Travis, What is sometimes available is a switch, ambigiously labeled "energy saver". What it is in fact is a switch for the door seal heater. In high humidity areas, condensation would form next to the door seal. the heater would, at a cost, make this problem go away. There are few problems that cannot be solved by throwing money at them. No comment on the elegance of the money, or in this case energy inefficiency, solution. Bill Loesch St Louis Solar St Louis MO - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From indeppower at aol.com Thu Mar 23 09:38:30 2000 From: indeppower at aol.com (indeppower at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 06:38:30 -0800 Subject: $10,000 for 30 kWh per day! [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1104702825-951758591-953822310@topica.com> In a message dated 3/22/2000 9:32:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, ozsolar at ipa.net writes: << I hate to be the first one to slam an RE company by name so maybe I deserve some harsh comments. >> Don't worry about slamming Schafer. We've all been doing it for years. Although he makes some good points in his defense he deserves to be spanked when he says things like that. Dave Palumbo, IP&L - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From cvsolar at aol.com Thu Mar 23 10:21:27 2000 From: cvsolar at aol.com (cvsolar at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 07:21:27 -0800 Subject: Explorer Products? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1415744765-951758591-953824887@topica.com> Scott, I would be interested in the Brand and Model of the under 500kw/yr fridge. I have 2 customers who need something less expensive than the SunFrost. I hate to see people use up all their capacity on a standard refrigerator. I have an RF-12 myself and love it but the price has gone up, not down since I bought mine 9 years ago. I would have thought competition would have come in sooner. It really shouldn't cost more than $900. - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From cvsolar at aol.com Thu Mar 23 10:21:32 2000 From: cvsolar at aol.com (cvsolar at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 07:21:32 -0800 Subject: Transformer T240 [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1571634052-951758591-953824892@topica.com> Hi all, I am quoting on a fairly large 48 vdc wind/solar off grid system with 16 L16P Batteries. I am planning to use a Yamaha EF4600 generator and am wondering if feeding the 240 from the generator into a T240 to balance the generator and get more than the 20 amps available in the 120 socket would make sense. I want to minimize generator run time and with the large battery bank, it should be able to use close to 25 amps at 120 v to get the 60amp dc charger output on the SW4048 and I also need more for the pass through to run the house loads. Has anyone used the balancing transformer? John Blittersdorf Central Vermont Solar and Wind - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From j.lamb at pecorp.com Thu Mar 23 10:21:53 2000 From: j.lamb at pecorp.com (j.lamb at pecorp.com) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 07:21:53 -0800 Subject: Explorer Products? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1974949431-951758591-953824913@topica.com> I have managed to buy a cycle defrost NEW 13.4 cubic foot General Electric refrigerator for $ 285.00 one day sale 7 years ago from Highland Appliance( out of business today). The salesman tried to stear me away to an auto defrost model. I told him no and he told me I would have to wait a week for it. No problem I waited. This Frig as is uses 2 KWH/DAY average stock. With modifications I got the average usage down to 800 wattshours/Day to 1KH/Day You have to defrost the freezer about 2-4 times a year. The freezer has its seperate door and is on top. The Frig section is on the bottom with its seperate door and has a evaporator coil in it. When the compressor is off, the temp in the frigerator section (38 degrees) mellts the ice on the coil thus the name cycle defrost. In addition there is a small heater on that coil that is TURNED ON ALL THE TIME to make sure the coil defrosted in a very humid climate. I disconnected it. no problem no frost build up even on hot summer days. Now I had to run the compressor less for less electric usage. I insulated the inside the freezer over the non coil area (right and left side of freezer section). I also insulated around the outside of the refrigerator. I added even more insulation on the top and sides of the freezer which is on top. I carefully tilted the evaporator coil on the back to increase air flow around it. I also raised the refrigerator a few inches for more air flow around it. By having the freezer on top, cold travels down, so this helps to use the cold better. That's why the old wooded refrigerator require you to put the ice on top. I have one for emergencies and also I can tell people I own a refrigerator that does not have a plug. Question? What are the disadvantages of using a chest freezer as a refrigerator by installing a series thermostat that sets the temp at 38 Degrees. I notice that some people open the refrigerator door and feel like they are shopping for stuff and close it without picking something. A chest freezer changed to a refrigerator would at least keep the cold air in for the shoppers. Jim Lamb Middle Fork Engineering "Habits are at first cobwebs, then cables."-Spanish Proverb > ---------- > From: bill loesch[SMTP:bill_loesch at compuserve.com] > Reply To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2000 6:00 AM > To: INTERNET:RE-wrenches at topica.com > Subject: Re: Explorer Products? [RE-wrenches] > > > >I was afraid that I would ice up my coil > since we are usually very humid around here.< > > Hi Ian and Travis, > > What is sometimes available is a switch, ambigiously labeled "energy > saver". > > What it is in fact is a switch for the door seal heater. In high humidity > areas, condensation would form next to the door seal. the heater would, at > a cost, make this problem go away. > > There are few problems that cannot be solved by throwing money at them. No > comment on the elegance of the money, or in this case energy inefficiency, > solution. > > Bill Loesch > St Louis Solar > St Louis MO > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > _________________________________________________________ > Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Thu Mar 23 10:46:42 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (Sharkey) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 07:46:42 -0800 Subject: SolWest Electronic Flyer [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.812482164-212058698-953826402@topica.com> Hello Wrenches, This morning's e-mail brought this from Jennifer Barker, organizer of SolWest Renewable Energy fair. I thought I'd sent it along for those of you who might be interested. ======================================================== Dear friend: Here is the electronic version of the SolWest Renewable Energy Fair flyer. Hope to see you at the fair! ***>>> KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! <<<*** SolWest Renewable Energy Fair July 29&30, 2000 Grant County Fairgrounds, John Day, Oregon (Sponsored by EORenew with special thanks to Home Power Magazine) We invite you to come and share the excitement of an Energy Fair by traveling to John Day for the weekend of July 29 and 30, 2000. Here you’ll find: •An opportunity to see the latest in renewable energy technology •A chance to talk with the inventors, manufacturers, and installers of renewable energy hardware •Networking opportunities with new friends and folks in the RE business •Over thirty classes and workshops on a variety of subjects related to RE •Good food and entertainment in beautiful surroundings •and more! ** ADMISSION TO THE FAIR ** DAILY WEEKEND Adults $5.00 $8.00 Juniors, 13-17 $2.00 $3.00 Seniors, 60+ $2.00 $3.00 Family $10.00 $17.00 Children 12 and under get in free! EORenew members and volunteers get in free! On-site child care available Fair Hours: Saturday, 9 a.m. to 7 p.m. Sunday, 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. THE EORenew MISSION: To inform and educate ourselves and the public on Renewable Energy uses, designs, systems, and building techniques, through meetings, workshops, educational materials, and Energy Fairs. ***>>> KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! <<<*** ... and what better way to learn about power than at an energy fair! Workshops and Classes Come to SolWest Fair to learn! Our exhibitors and other invited experts present a variety of workshops and classes on topics related to renewable energy and energy efficiency. Workshops planned include: •Intro to Photovoltaics •Solar Camping •Energy Efficient Building Design •Solar Water Pumping •Solar Power Systems for RVs •Issues in Energy •Passive Solar Design •Biodiesel •System Metering •Batteries •Solar Cooking •Electric Vehicles •Oregon Energy Tax Credits •Micro Hydro Exhibits are an integral part of any Energy Fair. Our exhibitors are people who make, sell, and install renewable energy products and services. They have products on hand to look at, ask questions about, and purchase. Your interest is the reason they are here. Food Booths and Picnic Area will be available on the fairgrounds for meals and treats. Demonstrations are given at regular intervals. You will see equipment operating, and learn by observing how it performs and what it does. The Electric Vehicle Display Area will host a display of all electric and alternatively-fueled vehicles brought to the fair. Anyone who brings an EV to the Fair will get in free for the weekend. Ask us about a possible electrathon! ** Keynote Speakers for SolWest 2000 ** Randy Udall is the director of the Community Office for Resource Efficiency (CORE), a nonprofit organization established to promote water and energy efficiency in Aspen, Colorado. Udall has a positive, can-do attitude and a great message! John Perlin is author of From Space to Earth, the Story of Solar Electricity. Home Power magazine says “Perlin does an excellent job of telling the history of solar electricity by focusing on the people and their needs, which helped drive its development.” How to get to John Day, Oregon: John Day is a great place for an energy fair! It’s a town of 2,000 people with a well-prepared tourist infrastructure and a welcoming attitude. The Fairgrounds is on the banks of the scenic John Day River within a 3-block walk of the downtown area. Access is easy via wide, uncrowded two-lane US highways. Route 395 from Pendleton to Burns through John Day has been called one of the ten most beautiful drives in the country. For accommodations information, call Grant County Chamber of Commerce 1-800-769-5664 *************** Jennifer Barker plan now for the next SolWest, July 29-30, 2000! SolWest/EORenew PO Box 485 Canyon City, OR 97820 office 541-575-3633 home 541-542-2525 solwest at eoni.com www.eoni.com/~solwest - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From indeppower at aol.com Thu Mar 23 10:49:09 2000 From: indeppower at aol.com (indeppower at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 07:49:09 -0800 Subject: Explorer Products? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1963555722-951758591-953826549@topica.com> In a message dated 3/22/2000 7:50:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, carlson at pe.net writes: << I am finding refrigerators below 500 kWh per year (sticker rating)and approx. 21 cubic foot in size, with the freezer on top and at a price of approx. $900.00. >> I'm very skeptical of these numbers. 500 kwhrs is considerably less than a Sun Frost RF 19 (720 kwhrs). Of course I would be pleased if it's all true. What is the manufacturers name and model number of the refrigerator. Dave Palumbo, IP&L - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From steve at backwoodssolar.com Thu Mar 23 11:05:26 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Backwoods Solar Electric Systems) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 08:05:26 -0800 Subject: DC light motion sensor [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.172255705-212058698-953827526@topica.com> That 34600 Sunelco motion switch looks just like the 12 volt one made by RAB which is available from the manufacturer at 800-938-1010. Excellent quality unit. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From steve at backwoodssolar.com Thu Mar 23 11:05:30 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Backwoods Solar Electric Systems) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 08:05:30 -0800 Subject: Explorer Products? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1651639039-951758591-953827530@topica.com> On the question of efficiency in refrigerators and freezers, there are two criterion to influence whether I recommend a super solar Sunfrost or a good energy star. One, if absolute energy savings is the goal, then go to a small refrigerator and freezer, which is usually available super-insulated too, like the Conserv/ Vestfrost chest freezer at 7.5 cu ft. This is the only way you can keep the daily usage to 250 - 800 watt hours. This can be essential when either budget, or local climate conditions mandate keeping electrical consumption low. However if the goal is to have larger freezer (or refrigerator) primarily, whatever the cost, and there is power to support it, the special solar models lose their advantage. If for example, a customer buys TWO Conserv 7.5 cu ft chest freezers, for total 15 cu ft, the surface area of two separate boxes is so large that a 15 cu ft freezer from sears (Kenmore model 18551) is just about equal in energy use to two 7.5 cu ft super insulated freezers. It's a crime the big one isn't super insulated, or it could clearly beat the two small Conserv boxes, but even as it is the geometry lets this type unit run on about 437 kWH/year or 1.2 per day. And the thing costs around $480, as opposed to $700 x 2 = $1400 for the Conserv units. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From steve at backwoodssolar.com Thu Mar 23 12:54:05 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Backwoods Solar Electric Systems) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 09:54:05 -0800 Subject: $10,000 for 30 kWh per day! [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.965943546-951758591-953834045@topica.com> In that same letter, John Shaffer goers on to state that if he uses all that 30 kWh per day (as if each day were sunny, that it would be cost $15,400 per year from the utility. Obviously he intended that to read $1,540 per year, working backwards from his 40 year cost of $61,000. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems A catalog business on a mountain 2 miles from utility lines, powered entirely by our catalog products. IF UTILITY POWER IS 1/2 MILE OR MORE FROM YOUR SITE, get our free 160 page solar-electric Planning Guide/Catalog. (Your postal address required - Our list is never given or sold). Phone(208)263-4290 Fax (208) 265-4788 in Idaho, USA ----- Original Message ----- From: Travis Creswell To: Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2000 6:32 PM Subject: $10,000 for 30 kWh per day! [RE-wrenches] > Hello Wrenches, > > Did anyone catch the latest Real Goods (spring 2000) where John Schaeffer in > response to a blistering letter from a another reader says that he is > installing a system in his house that will produce 30 kWh per day and cost > $10,000. This includes $2,000 worth of batteries. > > John Schaeffer says "I am in the process of building a house that will have > a 5kW PV array and with federal and state incentives this system will cost > me $10,000 to purchase and install for everything." > > I wouldn't have taken offense to this but he almost cost me a job. I though > I was going to loose a real nice job when a customer asked me " why their > system was costing over $20,000 to produce 8 kWh per day when Mr. Schaeffer > could make 30 kWh a day for $10,000". I told her that there was no way > that even with tax incentives could that be done. She agreed and sent me a > check for the deposit and that was that. > > Maybe, just maybe a grid tied battery less system could be that cheap with > tax incentives but I doubt it. Any comments? I hate to be the first one > to slam an RE company by name so maybe I deserve some harsh comments. > > If anyone is interested and doesn't have a Real Goods I will have my > secretary type the whole letter up and email to the RE-Wrenches List. > > Travis Creswell > Ozark Solar > > > > > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > _________________________________________________________ > Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From bob at energyoutfitters.com Thu Mar 23 13:13:54 2000 From: bob at energyoutfitters.com (Bob Maynard) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 10:13:54 -0800 Subject: Transformer T240 [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1775390596-212058698-953835234@topica.com> Hello John, We use the Trace T-240 for this all the time, and it works well. I suspect with that genset, you'll get close to 30A at 120vac. Regards, Bob Maynard Energy Outfitters cvsolar at aol.com wrote: > Hi all, > I am quoting on a fairly large 48 vdc wind/solar off grid system with 16 > L16P Batteries. I am planning to use a Yamaha EF4600 generator and am > wondering if feeding the 240 from the generator into a T240 to balance the > generator and get more than the 20 amps available in the 120 socket would > make sense. I want to minimize generator run time and with the large battery > bank, it should be able to use close to 25 amps at 120 v to get the 60amp dc > charger output on the SW4048 and I also need more for the pass through to run > the house loads. Has anyone used the balancing transformer? > > John Blittersdorf > Central Vermont Solar and Wind > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > _________________________________________________________ > Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From solarbeacon at email.msn.com Thu Mar 23 13:46:27 2000 From: solarbeacon at email.msn.com (Bill Roush) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 10:46:27 -0800 Subject: Explorer Products? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.416009565-951758591-953837187@topica.com> The American Council for an Energy Efficient Economy (http://aceee.org) has a book "Consumer Guide to Home Energy Savings" with lists of the most efficient products. The web site has the top ones (including refrigerators). They also sell a booklet with just the efficient appliances (no energy saving tips). They don't list units like Sun Frost, Low Keep, etc. , just the mainstream units. I asked them why and a representative said "they haven't found those other units to be any more efficient" I suggested they test them and let the cards fall where they may, but they haven't responded to that suggestion. Best, Bill Roush Solar Electric Systems of Kansas City, Inc. 13700 W. 108th St. Lenexa, KS 66215 913-338-1939 800-632-9751 913-469-5522fax solarbeacon at email.msn.com www.solarbeacon.com -----Original Message----- From: Scott Carlson [mailto:carlson at pe.net] Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2000 6:50 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Re: Explorer Products? [RE-wrenches] Hi all, Here in Southern California, I am finding refrigerators below 500 kWh per year (sticker rating)and approx. 21 cubic foot in size, with the freezer on top and at a price of approx. $900.00. I believe it is at Circuit City or another large appliance retailer. Scott Carlson ----- Original Message ----- From: bill loesch To: Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2000 5:28 AM Subject: Re: Explorer Products? [RE-wrenches] > We steer people towards the new generation of Energy Star Appliances. At our grid connected house we have a Amana 20.5 cu. ft with bottom freezer that uses around 1.2 - 1.5 kWh per day depending on the season.< Hi Travis, Glad to hear you were able to better the yellow sticker (EPA?, DOE?) rating. Please refresh my memory, doesn't the bottom freezer inherently use a bit more power? I personally would much prefer the more ergonomically efficient bottom freezer. In almost 50 years on this earth, I've never had the need to buy a new fridge. Both houses came "fridge furnished" and the current one a 21cu ft 1.9 kWh (winter) daily user is still ticking. The meter was a Watts Up unit introduced to me by a future customer, reportedly $100 at RealGoods, I have no experience, yet, with the Brand product. In a former life, I performed energy efficiency testing on storage hot water heaters to verify the yellow sticker ratings. During meetings with my coharts in other industries, I discovered that a huge fraction of the lifetime residential energy budget went to the refrigerator since the builder uses the cheapest (and most likely low efficiency) unit he can find. Moreover, the refrigerator can outlast the HWH and because of the parts count, the fridge is oftentimes economically repairable. One proposal in the 70's was to mandate energy efficiency numbers much like is done with cars. As you see it never happened. Bill Loesch bill_loesch at compuserve.com 314 631 1094 St Louis Solar St Louis MO - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From vtsolar1 at together.net Thu Mar 23 14:16:40 2000 From: vtsolar1 at together.net (kirk) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 11:16:40 -0800 Subject: Transformer T240 [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1985800093-951758591-953839000@topica.com> John, I assume the Yamaha is rated for 4600 watts(is that surge or continuious power?). Balancing is the right idea, but: 1.) the generator is undersized. If the charger is drawing the maximum power from the generator(30 amps @ 120 vac), thats 3600 watts. There's not may amps left to power household loads at the same time. 2) the Trace T240 is rated for 3900 watts continously. You're pushing its limits with a 4600 watt generator. I'd recommend a larger generator (6 kw) min. At least you'd have 20 minimum available amps for household loads if the Trace charger were operating at maximum ouput of 30 amps([6000 watts /120 vac] - 30 = 20 amps). You'll have to use a larger transformer for step down than the T240. Call me if you're interested in finding a source. Kirk, Vt. Solar cvsolar at aol.com wrote: > Hi all, > I am quoting on a fairly large 48 vdc wind/solar off grid system with 16 > L16P Batteries. I am planning to use a Yamaha EF4600 generator and am > wondering if feeding the 240 from the generator into a T240 to balance the > generator and get more than the 20 amps available in the 120 socket would > make sense. I want to minimize generator run time and with the large battery > bank, it should be able to use close to 25 amps at 120 v to get the 60amp dc > charger output on the SW4048 and I also need more for the pass through to run > the house loads. Has anyone used the balancing transformer? > > John Blittersdorf > Central Vermont Solar and Wind > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > _________________________________________________________ > Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From michael.welch at homepower.com Thu Mar 23 14:44:04 2000 From: michael.welch at homepower.com (Michael Welch) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 11:44:04 -0800 Subject: Transformer T240 [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.841763155-951758591-953840644@topica.com> At 11:16 AM 03/23/2000 -0800, you wrote: >2) the Trace T240 is rated for 3900 watts continously. You're pushing its limits with a 4600 watt generator. > >I'd recommend a larger generator (6 kw) min. At least you'd have 20 minimum available amps for household loads if the Trace charger were operating at maximum ouput of 30 amps([6000 watts /120 vac] - 30 = 20 amps). You'll have to use a larger transformer for step down than the T240. Call me if you're interested in finding a source. AEE has "Autotransformers" in NEMA 1 enclosures, 98% efficient, <0.2% no load idle loss, quiet. 2.5, 4, & 8 kw. Michael Welch ------------------------ "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." Edward Abbey Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com Associate Editor, Home Power magazine Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From solarbeacon at email.msn.com Thu Mar 23 17:30:24 2000 From: solarbeacon at email.msn.com (Bill Roush) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 14:30:24 -0800 Subject: Explorer Products? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2022237772-951758591-953850624@topica.com> The best one listed in the ACEEE booklet is a Magic Chef CT*1511*EW , 15 cu. Ft. and 437 kwh/yr. More are listed a t http://aceee.org/consumerguide Best, Bill Roush Solar Electric Systems of Kansas City, Inc. 13700 W. 108th St. Lenexa, KS 66215 913-338-1939 800-632-9751 913-469-5522fax solarbeacon at email.msn.com www.solarbeacon.com -----Original Message----- From: cvsolar at aol.com [mailto:cvsolar at aol.com] Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2000 9:21 AM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Re: Explorer Products? [RE-wrenches] Scott, I would be interested in the Brand and Model of the under 500kw/yr fridge. I have 2 customers who need something less expensive than the SunFrost. I hate to see people use up all their capacity on a standard refrigerator. I have an RF-12 myself and love it but the price has gone up, not down since I bought mine 9 years ago. I would have thought competition would have come in sooner. It really shouldn't cost more than $900. - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From ozsolar at ipa.net Thu Mar 23 18:00:56 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:00:56 -0800 Subject: Transformer T240 [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1338051627-951758591-953852456@topica.com> John, Since it is "fairly large system" why don't you look at a dual inverter system? Of course a T240 or comparable transformer is quite a bit cheaper but if the budget allows it, a dual sure solves a lot of problems. How is this customer pumping water? How many other of you do dual inverter systems? On what percentage do you do them? We use them most of the time but most of our jobs are small family full time residences with little workshops, have wells over 200' deep and we usually have over 10 kW generators. That is a very small generator for a SW4048. Assuming you use the T240 you might get something like (3900 watts/120v) 32.5 amps. The battery charger is going to soak all of that up and leave 2.5 amps to pass through for other loads. You'll have around 33 - 37 kwh of storage depending on which type of L16 you use. 30 amps (4048 Charger Rate) x 115 (the voltage that a small generator might get pulled down to at full load) v x .7% charge efficiency = ~2400 watts Assuming 50% DOD then you have around (37 kWh * .5) = you have 18.5 kWh to get back in the batteries but of course you aren't going to charge them back to 100% with the generator. 16 kWh / 2.4 kW = around 7 hours to get the batteries back to around 80% full which assume you charge at full rate the whole time by not running any loads in the house. Everyone please check my math and tell me different if you don't agree with my numbers. Travis Creswell Ozark Solar ---------- >From: cvsolar at aol.com >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Subject: Transformer T240 [RE-wrenches] >Date: Thu, Mar 23, 2000, 9:21 AM > >Hi all, > I am quoting on a fairly large 48 vdc wind/solar off grid system with 16 >L16P Batteries. I am planning to use a Yamaha EF4600 generator and am >wondering if feeding the 240 from the generator into a T240 to balance the >generator and get more than the 20 amps available in the 120 socket would >make sense. I want to minimize generator run time and with the large battery >bank, it should be able to use close to 25 amps at 120 v to get the 60amp dc >charger output on the SW4048 and I also need more for the pass through to run >the house loads. Has anyone used the balancing transformer? > >John Blittersdorf >Central Vermont Solar and Wind >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: > >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >for info contact: >_________________________________________________________ >Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From ellison at gisco.net Thu Mar 23 20:36:44 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 17:36:44 -0800 Subject: Explorer Products? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.478022027-212058698-953861804@topica.com> It seems like Sunfrost would rather have orders backed up for a year than to take steps to increase production. To bad, I have lost at least 3 sales due to the wait. One of the more efficient new fridges is the Jenn Air or the Whirlpool models, or one of Dan Always chest refrigerators, they are as efficient as a Sun Frost if you can get over it being a chest unit and he will NOT give dealers a break on sales. Bob -----Original Message----- From: cvsolar at aol.com [mailto:cvsolar at aol.com] Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2000 10:21 AM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Re: Explorer Products? [RE-wrenches] Scott, I would be interested in the Brand and Model of the under 500kw/yr fridge. I have 2 customers who need something less expensive than the SunFrost. I hate to see people use up all their capacity on a standard refrigerator. I have an RF-12 myself and love it but the price has gone up, not down since I bought mine 9 years ago. I would have thought competition would have come in sooner. It really shouldn't cost more than $900. 15 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From quicksilver at eagle-access.net Thu Mar 23 20:40:18 2000 From: quicksilver at eagle-access.net (Don Wallingford) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 17:40:18 -0800 Subject: NEC Article# 690-71(b) (1) & (2) [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1129922375-951758591-953862018@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 3678 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ellison at gisco.net Thu Mar 23 21:11:56 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 18:11:56 -0800 Subject: Transformer T240 [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.620344447-951758591-953863916@topica.com> John, I have used the T-240 on a few occasions it does help, the other thing that I have done is to use a 2nd inverter to help charge faster. You probably will not get full power from both chargers but it gives you a backup if something happens to the inverter. You can use a mod sine as the 2nd charger, the Heart Interface Freedom inverters seem to "out charge" the Traces. Bob -----Original Message----- From: cvsolar at aol.com [mailto:cvsolar at aol.com] Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2000 10:22 AM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Transformer T240 [RE-wrenches] Hi all, I am quoting on a fairly large 48 vdc wind/solar off grid system with 16 L16P Batteries. I am planning to use a Yamaha EF4600 generator and am wondering if feeding the 240 from the generator into a T240 to balance the generator and get more than the 20 amps available in the 120 socket would make sense. I want to minimize generator run time and with the large battery bank, it should be able to use close to 25 amps at 120 v to get the 60amp dc charger output on the SW4048 and I also need more for the pass through to run the house loads. Has anyone used the balancing transformer? John Blittersdorf Central Vermont Solar and Wind - - - - - - - - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From toddcory at jps.net Thu Mar 23 21:15:02 2000 From: toddcory at jps.net (Todd Cory) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 18:15:02 -0800 Subject: $10,000 for 30 kWh per day! [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.916947535-951758591-953864102@topica.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael.welch at homepower.com Thu Mar 23 21:31:15 2000 From: michael.welch at homepower.com (Michael Welch) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 18:31:15 -0800 Subject: Explorer Products? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.214584063-212058698-953865075@topica.com> At 05:36 PM 03/23/2000 -0800, Bob wrote: >It seems like Sunfrost would rather have orders backed up for a year than to >take steps to increase production. To bad, I have lost at least 3 sales due >to the wait. One of the more efficient new fridges is the Jenn Air or the >Whirlpool models, or one of Dan Always chest refrigerators, they are as >efficient as a Sun Frost if you can get over it being a chest unit and he >will NOT give dealers a break on sales. Sun Frost's lead times are down to around a month. In retrospect, it was probably a good idea for our community here and individual job security that Larry wasn't able to over-ramp for Y2K buy-mania. Larry was advertising in the local paper for help for the last several months, and just recently took his ad out of the paper. I know that he was hurtin' and trying to find help for a long time. Michael Welch ------------------------ "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." Edward Abbey Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com Associate Editor, Home Power magazine Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From ellison at gisco.net Fri Mar 24 00:36:56 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 21:36:56 -0800 Subject: Explorer Products? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1123005620-951758591-953876216@topica.com> Mike, I don't blame Larry, it was just frustrating with the waiting times. Glad to hear he made the right move..... Bob -----Original Message----- From: Michael Welch [mailto:michael.welch at homepower.com] Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2000 9:31 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: RE: Explorer Products? [RE-wrenches] At 05:36 PM 03/23/2000 -0800, Bob wrote: >It seems like Sunfrost would rather have orders backed up for a year than to >take steps to increase production. To bad, I have lost at least 3 sales due >to the wait. One of the more efficient new fridges is the Jenn Air or the >Whirlpool models, or one of Dan Always chest refrigerators, they are as >efficient as a Sun Frost if you can get over it being a chest unit and he >will NOT give dealers a break on sales. Sun Frost's lead times are down to around a month. In retrospect, it was probably a good idea for our community here and individual job security that Larry wasn't able to over-ramp for Y2K buy-mania. Larry was advertising in the local paper for help for the last several months, and just recently took his ad out of the paper. I know that he was hurtin' and trying to find help for a long time. Michael Welch ------------------------ "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." Edward Abbey Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com Associate Editor, Home Power magazine Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From sunwise at win.bright.net Fri Mar 24 11:14:38 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (sunwise at win.bright.net) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 08:14:38 -0800 Subject: Explorer Products? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1567306142-212058698-953914478@topica.com> Jumping in..... I have a couple customers with stand-alone systems that are getting reasonable efficiency with General Electric's 10 CF manual defrost frigs. Though they are only 9 or 10 cubic foot, and the freezer is pretty small, I have measured one of them at 750 WH a day average (G.E. model number begins with TAX10). I have been following a similar discussion at CREST's web page and may be getting the two mixed up, but I make an attempt not to have phantom loads such as those created by a refirgerator's auto-defrost timer. Do check out http://www.crest.org. Go to their discussion groups then to "PV users". Even Larry at Sunfrost has been in on the discussion there. Sincerely, Kurt Nelson -- SOLutions cvsolar at aol.com wrote: > > Scott, > I would be interested in the Brand and Model of the under 500kw/yr > fridge. I have 2 customers who need something less expensive than the > SunFrost. I hate to see people use up all their capacity on a standard > refrigerator. I have an RF-12 myself and love it but the price has gone up, > not down since I bought mine 9 years ago. I would have thought competition > would have come in sooner. It really shouldn't cost more than $900. > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > _________________________________________________________ > Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From ellison at gisco.net Fri Mar 24 12:01:53 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 09:01:53 -0800 Subject: NI-Cad batteries [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.358908704-951758591-953917313@topica.com> Does anyone know what the maximum charge rate is for a bank of NI-Cad batteries? A percentage like 25-30% of capacity is what I am looking for. Any idea? I believe that they are capable of taking a higher rate of charge but I could be wrong. Thanks, Bob Ellison - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From quicksilver at eagle-access.net Fri Mar 24 12:11:33 2000 From: quicksilver at eagle-access.net (Don Wallingford) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 09:11:33 -0800 Subject: Fw: NEC Article# 690-71(b) (1) & (2) [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2093439553-212058698-953917893@topica.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Wiles" To: "Don Wallingford" Cc: ; ; ; ; "Ward Bower" Sent: Friday, March 24, 2000 9:59 AM Subject: Re: NEC Article# 690-71(b) (1) & (2) > Hi Don: > > I had some difficulty reading your e-mail. It was blank. Seems like you > and a few others out there send e-mail in HTML. Many popular e-mail > programs like Eudora do not support HTML. I finally opened your e-mail > with my web browser, but that technique is not common knowledge. You > might want to consider turning off the HTML feature on your e-mail program. > > Glad to hear the Wrench list is up and working. Feel free to share the > following. > > There is no intent in the NEC to prohibit battery systems in dwellings at > any voltage. There are PV-battery systems under development for residential > applications that will operate at several hundred volts. They will be > using "sealed" VRLA batteries in sealed cabinets (factory service only). > > UL and NFPA have standards that indicate that an additional shock hazard > potential exists at voltages above 50-60 volts. In the 2002 Code > submissions, the PV industry and Code Making Panel 3 are attempting to > clarify that 50 volts refers to 24, 2V cells connected in series or a > nominal 48V battery bank. We are trying to allow the nominal 48V battery > bank, but impose additional safety provisions on battery banks operating > above a nominal 48V. We need to be careful with the use of the terms > "nominal" and "system" voltage because they are defined in different ways > throughout 690 and the rest of the code. We may or may not get all of the > proposed changes accepted. We will not know for a year or so as the > process continues. > > > In general, the term "accessible" in the Exception to 690-7(b)(1), would > indicate that the exposed terminals of the batteries or battery cables > operating above 48V nominal should not be accessible without using some > sort of tool. See definitions in Article 100. A locked battery cabinet > would also meet the requirement. The same requirement applies to the > common 120V ac outlet. The intent is that the person who can use the tool > to open the area where the batteries (and terminals) are located is > qualified to be in that area. > > Of course, there are always the questions: Is the conductive battery > electrolyte "live"? And is the conductive acid/dirt film on the tops of > batteries "live"? There have been shocks, fires, and explosions related to > this film on higher voltage battery banks (over 48V). > > Live parts would be considered guarded if they were in an area with limited > accessibility as discussed above. There are also commercially available > boots that fit over battery terminals that would also "guard" live parts. > Surrett and other battery manufacturers and the motive power battery > manufacturers use them and they are used in large UPS battery > installations. These, of course, can be easily removed by hand without a > tool so they would not meet the requirements of Section 690-71 (b)(1) if > the battery voltage were above 48V nominal. > > As the 1999 NEC stands in relation to 690-71, the installer has the > following options with respect to code as I see it. The local electrical > inspector (authority having jurisdiction) may have other ideas and has the > final say. > > All exposed current-carrying battery terminals should be guarded (covered) > in battery systems for dwellings at any voltage. If a tool is required to > get to unguarded terminals such as a screwed shut battery box or a locked > room, then the requirement appears to be met. I like the large poly boxes > sold by Walmart and Home Depot that will hold 4-6 L-16s and have lockable > covers. There are also battery boxes made by vendors in the PV industry. > As far as I know, there are no listed battery enclosures (yet) that meet > the NEC requirements for listing although there may be some listed to > Telcom standards. > > If the installer is not overly concerned with the safety of the people in > the vicinity of the batteries, then the code has no requirement that they > be installed in any sort of box or enclosure if they are 48 volts nominal > or below. I, for one, would not make such an installation due to the > additional hazard of acid around a battery bank. > > When installing an over-48V-nominal battery bank, the code appears to > require that the battery bank be enclosed and access be limited since we > have no readily-available way to keep little fingers away from the > terminals. > > With shock hazards, short-circuit hazards (even on 6V batteries), and acid > hazards, I always recommend installing batteries in non-conductive, acid > proof enclosures with screwed down or locked covers. > > You are correct that there is no specific mention of wind-power systems in > the code-yet. However, as fixed electrical power systems, the NEC applies > to wind-electrical systems as it does to all other similar fixed electrical > power systems. The same electrical inspectors that inspect PV systems also > inspect wind systems and some of them seem to be applying similar > requirements to all RE systems. > > > > > > If I can provide further information, please do not hesitate to call, > e-mail or fax me. > > John > > John C. Wiles, Program Manager > Southwest Technology Development Institute, New Mexico State University > 505-646-6105 505-646-3841 (FAX) > SWTDI/NMSU > 1505 Payne Street-Campus > Box 30001/MSC 3 SOLAR > Las Cruces, NM 88003 > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From bob at energyoutfitters.com Fri Mar 24 13:23:12 2000 From: bob at energyoutfitters.com (Bob Maynard) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 10:23:12 -0800 Subject: Explorer Products? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1597815198-951758591-953922192@topica.com> Lead time from Sunfrost is running 4-6 weeks, as of my last contact with them, 3 weeks ago. During the Y2K rush, their lead times were 1 year +. I see Sunfrost as doing the smart thing, by not growing to a size that they could not maintain after an anomoly like Y2K. Just think of the employee training expense alone, just to survive 1 year, and then lay offs. The same is true for buildings, tooling, etc. It frustrated all of us to see unacceptable lead times, but at least there is still a Sunfrost company today to supply fridges. On the subject of freezers, we are now offering Danby's 5.3 cu.ft. chest freezer to our dealers. With a retail of $325. and power consumption between 500 and 650 watt/hours per day, depending on usage and environment, not a bad choice if the size meets the need. I have had one in my home for 2 years now. Is not sensitive to mod sine inverters. If anyone is interested in more info, call me at 800-467-6527 (800-GO-SOLAR). Regards, Bob Maynard Energy Outfitters Bob Ellison wrote: > It seems like Sunfrost would rather have orders backed up for a year than to > take steps to increase production. To bad, I have lost at least 3 sales due > to the wait. One of the more efficient new fridges is the Jenn Air or the > Whirlpool models, or one of Dan Always chest refrigerators, they are as > efficient as a Sun Frost if you can get over it being a chest unit and he > will NOT give dealers a break on sales. > > Bob > > -----Original Message----- > From: cvsolar at aol.com [mailto:cvsolar at aol.com] > Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2000 10:21 AM > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Subject: Re: Explorer Products? [RE-wrenches] > > Scott, > I would be interested in the Brand and Model of the under 500kw/yr > fridge. I have 2 customers who need something less expensive than the > SunFrost. I hate to see people use up all their capacity on a standard > refrigerator. I have an RF-12 myself and love it but the price has gone up, > not down since I bought mine 9 years ago. I would have thought competition > would have come in sooner. It really shouldn't cost more than $900. > 15 > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > _________________________________________________________ > Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Fri Mar 24 16:01:34 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (Sharkey) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 13:01:34 -0800 Subject: HTML? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2051764955-212058698-953931694@topica.com> I don't know what kind to e-mail client John Wiles is using, but my version of Eudora opens HTML encoded messages just fine. Maybe he needs to turn 'on' his features? -S - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From richard.perez at homepower.com Fri Mar 24 17:44:08 2000 From: richard.perez at homepower.com (Richard Perez, Home Power magazine) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 14:44:08 -0800 Subject: NI-Cad batteries [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.281198449-951758591-953937848@topica.com> Hello Bob Max charge rate for pocket plate (flooded) NiCd cells is C/3 (ampere-hour capacity divided by 3). NiCds have a very low internal resistance and can accept charge more quickly than lead-acid cells. Richard >Does anyone know what the maximum charge rate is for a bank of NI-Cad >batteries? A percentage like 25-30% of capacity is what I am looking for. >Any idea? I believe that they are capable of taking a higher rate of charge >but I could be wrong. > >Thanks, >Bob Ellison > > > >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: > >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >for info contact: >_________________________________________________________ >Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 ------------------------------------ Richard Perez Home Power PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA Tele: 530-475-3179 FAX: 530-475-0836 Subscriptions: 800-707-6585 mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com Web: http://www.homepower.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From mr.sun at juno.com Sat Mar 25 10:00:03 2000 From: mr.sun at juno.com (mr.sun at juno.com) Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 07:00:03 -0800 Subject: NI-Cad batteries [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.587770322-212058698-953996403@topica.com> Wrenches, Is anyone looking for flooded Ni-Cad batteries? I've got two sets, one Alcad and the other Exide. About 140 AH cells. About 40 cells total. All have had mineral oil applied to electrolyte and the Alcad set had new electrolyte about 5 yrs ago. Both sets are about 20 yrs old. Have connectors, nuts etc. Pick up in Eureka, Ca. All or nothing. Delivery not available. Price negotiable. Contact me for details. PS: Still have a used Sunfrost for sale. Greg Williams Six Rivers Solar, Inc. 818 Broadway, Eureka, CA 95501 (800) 492-9276 www.sixriverssolar.com ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From indeppower at aol.com Sat Mar 25 22:23:16 2000 From: indeppower at aol.com (indeppower at aol.com) Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 19:23:16 -0800 Subject: Explorer Products? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1972885731-951758591-954040996@topica.com> In a message dated 3/23/2000 10:49:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, indeppower at aol.com writes: << << I am finding refrigerators below 500 kWh per year (sticker rating)and approx. 21 cubic foot in size, with the freezer on top and at a price of approx. $900.00. >> I'm very skeptical of these numbers. 500 kwhrs is considerably less than a Sun Frost RF 19 (720 kwhrs). Of course I would be pleased if it's all true. What is the manufacturers name and model number of the refrigerator. Dave Palumbo, IP&L >> Hello Wrenchers, I realized my response to the refrigerator debate is incorrect. I confused kilowatt hours per year and watt hours per day. 500 kwhrs/yr = 1,370 watt hrs/day. The Sun Frost R 19 uses 720 watt hours per day. Dave Palumbo - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From powersense at horizon.co.fk Tue Apr 4 15:15:19 2000 From: powersense at horizon.co.fk (Clive Wilkinson) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 12:15:19 -0700 Subject: Ampair 100 charge control [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1921744542-951758591-954875719@topica.com> Hi everyone Anyone got any experience of the Ampair 100 wind turbine charge regulator? Local phone company keeps blowing up the charge regulator on their Ampairs; this is a simple relay type regulator which cannot handle open circuit voltage of 200v+ (this is on a 24v model). It appears that volts are measured at the regulator and not at the battery, therefore with a cut-off voltage of say 28v, the battery is very often actually only at 26.5v or thereabouts when it cuts out. Are there any off-the-shelf shunt regulators suitable to replace the original regulator? I have thought about Enermaxer and APT tapering diversion regulators, but these each cost just about as much as the turbine itself. Any suggestions welcomed! Need something reliable, standard, not just experimental as sites are remote (as in often accessible only by helicopter). The Ampair 100 is excellent - it's the only micro wind charger that has handled the dirty winds here. BUT the regulator needs looking at... Many thanks - and I would like to say how much I have been enjoying the posts on various topics, what a great list. Re problems with Trace, well it doesn't help when you are over 12 thousand freight-miles from factory... have had my struggles with getting hold of a techie, but when successful in this their advice has been spot-on. Clive Clive Wilkinson PowerSense Falkland Islands powersense at horizon.co.fk http://www.falklandwool.com tel +500 42202 fax +500 42203 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From sunwise at win.bright.net Tue Apr 4 15:59:00 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (sunwise at win.bright.net) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 12:59:00 -0700 Subject: Ampair 100 charge control [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1699131413-951758591-954878340@topica.com> Greetings Clive, I'm not familar with Ampair 100's, nor their regulator, but Solar Converters Inc. makes a device very much like Photon's Simple switch (no longer available). They make a voltage controlled thirty amp relay that can be used to bring a load on-line at a user selected high voltage setting and disconnect the load at a seperate user selected lower voltage setting. It could bring an appropriate sized load onto the battery at the point you would want to regulate. I think you can get them through A.E.E. (800.777.6609) though they are not in their catalog. You could try Solar Converters direct. They are out of Guelph, ON. Canada and can be reached at 519.824.5272,. They do have a web page though I don't remember it at the moment (www.solarconverters.com??). If you have voltage surges coming in on a phone line, better try and deal with that first or this device will probably also smoke. Maybe a Delta LA-302R, and although they make a DC version of this surge arrestor, I was told by a techie at Delta that the guts in the DC and the regular LA-302R are exactly the same. What kind of grounding do you have on this system and what is being powered? One other thought. You said the regulator was regulating at a voltage above the actual battery voltage. I don't know where the regulator is positioned but if it is some distance from the battery, could voltage drop/line loss/wire size be part of the problem? Don't know if this will help. but here in the States, both the relay device and the lightning arrestor could be had for around $100US. Good luck -- Kurt Nelson, SOLutions. - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ________________________________________________________________________ Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register From jackwest at alaska.net Tue Apr 4 16:39:30 2000 From: jackwest at alaska.net (Jack D West) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 13:39:30 -0700 Subject: Ampair 100 charge control [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.25260858-951758591-954880770@topica.com> Clive, Solar Converters is found at www.sentex.net/~sci e-mail sci at sentex.net I recommend dealing with them directly. They are very helpful about applying their products to their customers problems. Jack West Talkeetna AE - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From steve at backwoodssolar.com Wed Apr 5 16:17:12 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Backwoods Solar Electric Systems) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 13:17:12 -0700 Subject: Ampair 100 charge control [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1957945551-951758591-954965832@topica.com> The lowest cost good shunt regulator can be made from the Trace C-40 control. You put a load where solar usually goes and set it up for diversion and that works. Just be sure the load you connect will not pass more than 35 amps at the set voltage, otherwise the control will shut down and not regulate at all, even if only 3 amps is actually flowing. The diversion control set up at the battery on adequate size short wire will work better than most windmill contained regulators. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems ----- Original Message ----- From: Clive Wilkinson To: Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2000 12:15 PM Subject: Ampair 100 charge control [RE-wrenches] > Anyone got any experience of the Ampair 100 wind turbine charge > regulator? > Local phone company keeps blowing up the charge regulator on their > Ampairs; this is a simple relay type regulator which cannot handle > open circuit voltage of 200v+ (this is on a 24v model). > It appears that volts are measured at the regulator and not at the > battery, therefore with a cut-off voltage of say 28v, the battery is > very often actually only at 26.5v or thereabouts when it cuts out. > > Are there any off-the-shelf shunt regulators suitable to replace the > original regulator? > > I have thought about Enermaxer and APT tapering diversion regulators, > but these each cost just about as much as the turbine itself. > > Any suggestions welcomed! > > Need something reliable, standard, not just experimental as sites are > remote (as in often accessible only by helicopter). > > The Ampair 100 is excellent - it's the only micro wind charger that > has handled the dirty winds here. BUT the regulator needs looking > at... > > Many thanks - and I would like to say how much I have been enjoying > the posts on various topics, what a great list. Re problems with > Trace, well it doesn't help when you are over 12 thousand > freight-miles from factory... have had my struggles with getting hold > of a techie, but when successful in this their advice has been > spot-on. > > Clive > > Clive Wilkinson > PowerSense > Falkland Islands > > > > powersense at horizon.co.fk > http://www.falklandwool.com > > tel +500 42202 > fax +500 42203 > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > _________________________________________________________ > Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From toddcory at jps.net Wed Apr 5 21:00:45 2000 From: toddcory at jps.net (Todd Cory) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 18:00:45 -0700 Subject: Todd chargers... again [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1341497216-951758591-954982845@topica.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Thu Apr 6 02:10:45 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (Sharkey) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 23:10:45 -0700 Subject: Todd chargers... again [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.860552377-951758591-955001445@topica.com> Todd; Usually, you'd parallel up strings of batteries, panels, or chargers in a manner that would represent the least resistance to current flow. Richard can speak to this, as some years back HP had an article by Carrizio about series/paralleling panels for best output. It must have some merit, as I tried it and it did help a bit. My experience with multiple paralleled chargers is the same, you really don't get additional charging current, as the first charger backs off as the second charger raises the battery voltage. Using a buck/boost transformer can add to the charging current, but the generally best accepted solution is to use a DC generator (alternator) instead of running the AC generator's output through a step-down charger. Too bad about he Todds being 12v. I'd still like to get ahold of one (or more) to play Dr. Frankenshark on, converting to 24v, I think it would be fairly simple. Also quite within the realm of possibility is a 150 amp Power Source, with all of the slave modules running from one Master. You want amps? I can give you Amps! Last night I survived a hard disk crash, and am limping along on a crippled NT operating system until the new hard disk is partitioned. formatted and loaded with new OS's, etc. Fortunately, all of the data, documents, graphics and programs were on a separate partition which was not damaged. Don't forget to do your back-up's ! -S - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From powersense at horizon.co.fk Thu Apr 6 08:44:41 2000 From: powersense at horizon.co.fk (Clive Wilkinson) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 05:44:41 -0700 Subject: thanks and another question [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.200368384-951758591-955025081@topica.com> Re the Ampair 100 regulation question, thanks very much to all who replied. I finally contacted the manufacturer direct and apparently they have realised the problem has to be tackled and are producing a shunt regulator... Another question for you guys - this one from the makers of the Proven turbines I install here - I quote their description of a job in progress in the UK, where the turbine will power a pump: I bet some of you can answer this one for him. This is a 6 Kw turbine. I'll pass on any input so he can contact supplier/s direct. Many thanks cheers Clive Clive Wilkinson PowerSense Falkland Islands powersense at horizon.co.fk http://www.falklandwool.com tel +500 42202 fax +500 42203 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Thu Apr 6 10:54:36 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (Sharkey) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 07:54:36 -0700 Subject: thanks and another question [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1878408060-212058698-955032876@topica.com> Clive; Finding high voltage capacitors shouldn't be too hard. I regularly work with caps that have DC working voltages of 12,000 volts. Tell your turbine friend to check into parts suppliers for radio (and TV) broadcast equipment. A 600 volt cap is a tiny one compared to what is available! I can dig up some names/numbers/URL's if you are interested. -S - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From econnect at snowcrest.net Thu Apr 6 11:26:48 2000 From: econnect at snowcrest.net (Bob-O Schultze) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 08:26:48 -0700 Subject: Todd chargers... again [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2034646339-951758591-955034808@topica.com> >Hey everyone, > >Two questions for the list here: > >I don't want to whip a dead horse, but went to look at a job today >and they had 2, 75 amp Todd chargers in series feeding a 1250 AH >bank of Trojan T 105's. The inverter is a trace mod sine wave with >charger (SB option), so this makes little sense as when chargers are >added like this in parallel, it seems the more of them you add, the >less you get out of each one. The small voltage boosting >transformers in series with the generator are much more effective at >increasing charging output from mod sine wave inverters and the >price is less also. The question I have is: does series-ing 2, 75 >amp switching chargers like these Todd's work? It seems to me that >Richard said he had tried this and had marginal results. Yes, it works. I had a system in Alaska working that way for years until one of the Todds died. They aren't particularly robust. I agree that using them in combination with the Trace SB reduces the effectiveness of BOTH chargers, but as the 2024 or 2524 (I'm just assuming the system has one of these) the MAX output of the SB is 50A.. Parallellling the Todds was probably an attempt to get close to a C-10 rate into those batteries. It work work if the batts were pretty low but fall off pretty rapidly once the voltage got much over 26-27V > >Here's a new one I've never seen before... the system above has 16 >identical Kyocera J51 panels... as they are 12 volts each they need >to be in series to get 24 volts out. Generally I connect a bunch of >individually series 24 volt strings into parallel to feed the >load... this installer paralleled 2 sets of 8, 12 volt panels >together and then series these to get 24 volts... probably the same >result, but I know there is some reason this is not done when >combining batteries for higher voltage, and I wonder if the same >reasoning holds for PV combinations as well. Anyone got any info on >this wiring style, or pro's or con's for each variation? There are two main problems with that setup. One is shading. Any shading to one side of the string will GREATLY reduce the output of the whole array. The other is voltage loss. Why run your interconnects a 12V when you can run them a 24? Good Luck, Bob-O > >Thanks, > >TC >-- >Todd Cory >KE6SXS >toddcory at jps.net >Bald Mountain Solar >P.O. Box 689 >Mt. Shasta, Ca. 96067 >(530) 926-1079 > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an >archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: >for info contact: >______________________________________________________________________ >__ Start an Email List For Free at Topica. >http://www.topica.com/register Bob-O Schultze, Electron Connection PO Box 203, Hornbrook, CA 96044 800.945.7587 fax 530-475-3401 www.electronconnection.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From steve at backwoodssolar.com Thu Apr 6 12:04:34 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Backwoods Solar Electric Systems) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 09:04:34 -0700 Subject: Todd chargers... again [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.882645724-951758591-955037074@topica.com> Actually you can gain charge rate by paralleling chargers. The increase in charge rate will raise the battery voltage somewhat, and if that gets close to the cut-off voltage your output from each charger will be cut back. However, you still gain in total rate if the battery bank is large enough and discharged enough to accept the higher rate. Example: We run a 12 volt bank of 12 Trojan L-16HC batteries, rated capacity 2370 amp hours. A trace SW2512 charges about 100 amps, for a C/20 rate. To increase the rate in our sunless winters I added two Statpower Truecharge 40+ which each contribute their rated 40 amps for a total charge very close to 180 amps (C/13). These are driven by a 10 kilowatt Kohler generator. While I have seen some surplus telephone chargers oscillate and swap rates with Trace U series inverters and Todd chargers, the combination described above is completely stable. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems ----- Original Message ----- From: Todd Cory > I don't want to whip a dead horse, but went to look at a job today and they had 2, 75 amp Todd chargers in series feeding a 1250 AH bank of Trojan T 105's. The inverter is a trace mod sine wave with charger (SB option), so this makes little sense as when chargers are added like this in parallel, it seems the more of them you add, the less you get out of each one. The small voltage boosting transformers in series with the generator are much more effective at increasing charging output from mod sine wave inverters and the price is less also. The question I have is: does series-ing 2, 75 amp switching chargers like these Todd's work? It seems to me that Richard said he had tried this and had marginal results. > > Here's a new one I've never seen before... the system above has 16 identical Kyocera J51 panels... as they are 12 volts each they need to be in series to get 24 volts out. Generally I connect a bunch of individually series 24 volt strings into parallel to feed the load... this installer paralleled 2 sets of 8, 12 volt panels together and then series these to get 24 volts... probably the same result, but I know there is some reason this is not done when combining batteries for higher voltage, and I wonder if the same reasoning holds for PV combinations as well. Anyone got any info on this wiring style, or pro's or con's for each variation? > > Thanks, > > TC > -- > Todd Cory > KE6SXS > toddcory at jps.net > Bald Mountain Solar > P.O. Box 689 > Mt. Shasta, Ca. 96067 > (530) 926-1079 > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ________________________________________________________________________ Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register > > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From steve at backwoodssolar.com Thu Apr 6 15:29:24 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Backwoods Solar Electric Systems) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 12:29:24 -0700 Subject: Efficient products list [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1915435769-212058698-955049364@topica.com> I have lost the address for efficient appliance lists, one was a California state site. Can anyone post the web addresses of those appliance/refrigerator efficiency lists? Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From solarbeacon at email.msn.com Thu Apr 6 18:46:41 2000 From: solarbeacon at email.msn.com (Bill Roush) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 15:46:41 -0700 Subject: Efficient products list [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1665576748-212058698-955061201@topica.com> http://aceee.org Bill Roush Solar Electric Systems of Kansas City, Inc. 13700 W. 108th St. Lenexa, KS 66215 913-338-1939 800-632-9751 913-469-5522fax solarbeacon at email.msn.com www.solarbeacon.com -----Original Message----- From: Backwoods Solar Electric Systems [mailto:steve at backwoodssolar.com] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 2:29 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Efficient products list [RE-wrenches] I have lost the address for efficient appliance lists, one was a California state site. Can anyone post the web addresses of those appliance/refrigerator efficiency lists? Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From carlson at pe.net Thu Apr 6 20:32:32 2000 From: carlson at pe.net (Scott Carlson) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 17:32:32 -0700 Subject: Todd chargers... again [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.797671348-212058698-955067552@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 2307 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solar at eagle-access.net Mon Apr 10 12:02:21 2000 From: solar at eagle-access.net (Drake Chamberlin - Electrical Energy) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 09:02:21 -0700 Subject: Module Wiring Made Easy? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.316263334-951758591-955382541@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 7311 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ecoelec at rof.net Mon Apr 10 13:45:36 2000 From: ecoelec at rof.net (Pat Kiernan) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 10:45:36 -0700 Subject: Module Wiring Made Easy? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1097418414-951758591-955388736@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 9919 bytes Desc: not available URL: From richard.perez at homepower.com Mon Apr 10 15:11:39 2000 From: richard.perez at homepower.com (Richard Perez, Home Power magazine) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:11:39 -0700 Subject: A Request for Your Advice [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1027837535-951758591-955393899@topica.com> Hello Wrenches I received this email, listed below, from a fellow who is interested in getting into the RE business in Kansas. Here's what I told him. >I'm hesitant to refer you to folks I know who are in the business. >The reason is that these folks are very, very busy and I have no >idea if they are willing to teach you, via email, the basics of >starting and running a successful renewable energy business. > >What I will do is send your email to folks who I think may be >interested in helping you. If they wish to respond directly to you, >then they will. Richard Dear Mr. Perez, We haven't met so allow me to introduce myself. My name is Daryl Varney and I live in Olathe, KS. My purpose for writing is to ask a favor. But first, allow me to give a little background. I have had a longtime, and somewhat suppressed, interest in renewable energy. A few months ago I realized I was in a career that I wasn't especially enthusiastic about and began thinking about "what really interests me". It was then that I realized that my interest in renewable energy was something I am excited about. Thus, I then started to think about the possibility of having my own business. When I began to read up on the industry in your magazine and in other sources I became even more excited about the current state of things and what I perceive to be opportunities. So here I am today in the very early process of a feasibility study for a business in the field of wind energy, solar, or both. Which brings me to my question and favor of you. I am interested in establishing a "distance relationship" with a couple of trusted and experienced professionals. The purpose of this relationship is to have someone to turn to for advice without them fearful that I might be a potential competitor. I feel that you would be a good source for suggesting a few names of two or three people you feel would fit the description above and be willing to play such a role. Because of my location, I envision perhaps one contact on the west coast and one on the east coast. However, I am open to your suggestions. I thank you in advance for reading my email and I appreciate whatever consideration you will give it. Sincerely, Daryl Varney - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ________________________________________________________________________ Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register From richard.perez at homepower.com Mon Apr 10 15:40:01 2000 From: richard.perez at homepower.com (Richard Perez, Home Power magazine) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:40:01 -0700 Subject: Wind Workshop [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1042777027-951758591-955395601@topica.com> Hello Wrenches Here is a redirect form Tehri at MREA. I think some of you might like to attend this workshop--it's a golden opportunity to come up to speed with the expert--Mick Sagrillo. Richard Richard, The Wrench Email list sounds perfect. Here is the email blurb. As always, I am grateful. For Immediate Release: 4/10/00 Hands-On Wind System Installation Workshop Gain hands-on experience installing wind electric system at the Midwest Renewable Energy Association's (MREA) "Wind Systems Installation" workshop. The workshop will be held May 15 - 26, at the MREA's ReNew the Earth Institute, in Custer Wisconsin. This two week workshop is the most thorough and complete small wind turbine workshop offered in the United States. It is intended for renewable energy system dealers, installers, and serious homeowners who want to be able to install home-sized wind systems. Topics will range from aerodynamics and tower safety habits to improving wind quality and quantity. Participants will gain experience with site analysis, system design, and system installation. There will also be time spent comparing and contrasting the various wind systems that are commercially available. And perhaps most importantly, participants will be responsible for installing a 3.6 kW Jacobs wind generator on a 100ft free standing tower, complete with inverter, battery bank, and all wiring. While this system will be grid-intertied using a Trace inverter and have a battery back up system, off-grid systems, especially wind/PV hybrid systems, will be emphasized. Because this is an installation workshop involving tower work and a crane, enrollment will be limited. The "Wind Systems Installation Workshop" will be taught by Mick Sagrillo, of Sagrillo Power and Light. Mick teaches wind workshops across the country for the MREA, Solar Energy International, Great Lakes Renewable Energy Association, and other organizations. He has written wind power articles for Home Power Magazine, and writes a regular column in the American Wind Energy Associations newsletter. For more information on this workshop contact the Midwest Renewable Energy Association, 715-592-6595, email: mreainfo at wi-net.com, or visit our web site at www.the-mrea.org. -- Tehri Parker Executive Director Midwest Renewable Energy Association 7558 Deer Rd. Custer, WI 54423 715-592-6595 ************************************* Don't miss MREA's Renewable Energy And Sustainable Living Fair June 16-18, 2000, Dane County Expo Center Solar 2000 Conference June 16-21, 2000 Madison, WI - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Mon Apr 10 16:11:12 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (Sharkey) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 13:11:12 -0700 Subject: A Request for Your Advice [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.337644609-212058698-955397472@topica.com> Richard; It is my hope that some members of the Wrenches list will elect to advise Mr. Varney in his quest to start up his own RE business. Will we need to contact you to get his e-mail address? I think that most of us would agree that introducing and guiding new installer/dealers should be part of our 'mission'. While competition isn't always desireable in one's own market, there can be no denying that more qualified installer/dealers can only help the RE cause in general, and a successful businessman is a better representative of the craft than a failing one. Do I sense an opportunity for a new book, "RE Installation for Dummies"? -S - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From i2p at aol.com Mon Apr 10 16:12:54 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (i2p at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 13:12:54 -0700 Subject: A Request for Your Advice [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.511099896-212058698-955397574@topica.com> In a message dated 04/10/2000 12:12:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time, richard.perez at homepower.com writes: << Hello Wrenches I received this email, listed below, from a fellow who is interested in getting into the RE business in Kansas. Here's what I told him. >> I'd be happy to work with this guy. Seems like an appropriate funtion for IPP. Don loweburg - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From richard.perez at homepower.com Mon Apr 10 17:55:27 2000 From: richard.perez at homepower.com (Richard Perez, Home Power magazine) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 14:55:27 -0700 Subject: A Request for Your Advice [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1796900791-212058698-955403727@topica.com> Hello Wrenches This is a resend of the earlier message. I forgot to put Daryl's email address in the first posting. Sorry to trouble all of you again. Daryl's email address is: dvarney at sprintmail.com I received this email, listed below, from a fellow who is interested in getting into the RE business in Kansas. Here's what I told him. >I'm hesitant to refer you to folks I know who are in the business. >The reason is that these folks are very, very busy and I have no >idea if they are willing to teach you, via email, the basics of >starting and running a successful renewable energy business. > >What I will do is send your email to folks who I think may be >interested in helping you. If they wish to respond directly to you, >then they will. Richard Dear Mr. Perez, We haven't met so allow me to introduce myself. My name is Daryl Varney and I live in Olathe, KS. My purpose for writing is to ask a favor. But first, allow me to give a little background. I have had a longtime, and somewhat suppressed, interest in renewable energy. A few months ago I realized I was in a career that I wasn't especially enthusiastic about and began thinking about "what really interests me". It was then that I realized that my interest in renewable energy was something I am excited about. Thus, I then started to think about the possibility of having my own business. When I began to read up on the industry in your magazine and in other sources I became even more excited about the current state of things and what I perceive to be opportunities. So here I am today in the very early process of a feasibility study for a business in the field of wind energy, solar, or both. Which brings me to my question and favor of you. I am interested in establishing a "distance relationship" with a couple of trusted and experienced professionals. The purpose of this relationship is to have someone to turn to for advice without them fearful that I might be a potential competitor. I feel that you would be a good source for suggesting a few names of two or three people you feel would fit the description above and be willing to play such a role. Because of my location, I envision perhaps one contact on the west coast and one on the east coast. However, I am open to your suggestions. I thank you in advance for reading my email and I appreciate whatever consideration you will give it. Sincerely, Daryl Varney - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From richard.perez at homepower.com Mon Apr 10 18:01:06 2000 From: richard.perez at homepower.com (Richard Perez, Home Power magazine) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 15:01:06 -0700 Subject: A Request for Your Advice [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1549608311-212058698-955404066@topica.com> Hello Sharkey I have reposted the message with Daryl's email address. Good for you on the educational attitude. I fully agree. Education is part of the RE biz package. That's why Karen and I are doing the Successful Solar Biz workshop at SEI once again this year. I so glad to see that there is business opportunities for many others, I do too. You could have said, "This guy will just steal my customers" and given me the finger. Thanks Richard > Richard; > > It is my hope that some members of the Wrenches list will >elect to advise >Mr. Varney in his quest to start up his own RE business. Will we need to >contact you to get his e-mail address? > I think that most of us would agree that introducing and guiding new >installer/dealers should be part of our 'mission'. While competition isn't >always desireable in one's own market, there can be no denying that more >qualified installer/dealers can only help the RE cause in general, and a >successful businessman is a better representative of the craft than a >failing one. > Do I sense an opportunity for a new book, "RE Installation >for Dummies"? > > -S ------------------------------------ Richard Perez Home Power PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA Tele: 530-475-3179 FAX: 530-475-0836 Subscriptions: 800-707-6585 mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com Web: http://www.homepower.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From indeppower at aol.com Mon Apr 10 21:27:37 2000 From: indeppower at aol.com (indeppower at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 18:27:37 -0700 Subject: Fwd: FW: Wind/Grid intertie inverter [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1163222203-951758591-955416457@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/mixed Size: 2004 bytes Desc: not available URL: From i2p at aol.com Mon Apr 10 21:38:19 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (i2p at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 18:38:19 -0700 Subject: FW: Wind/Grid intertie inverter [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.755387577-951758591-955417099@topica.com> In a message dated 04/10/2000 6:28:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time, indeppower at aol.com writes: << Wrenches, We have a customer wanting advice on which synchronous inverter he should use for a new grid intertie wind system. He presently has a 24 volt battery system which he wants to keep operational. He has not decided on which wind machine to put up yet either. He says it will be over 1kw and below 5kw in output. Of course I am thinking of the Trace SW4024 because it can include the battery bank with a grid sell back wind system. But I do not have any experience with grid sell back systems as of yet so I thought I would send this query out to the wrench list to see if anybody has any thoughts on this issue. Regards, Dave Palumbo IP&L >> Hi Dave, Don from Offline here. On the load side, does he need 4kw capacity? If he does and he chooses in favor of the larger wind machine, then I think the SW 4k is good. If his backed up loads are small and the wind machine is closer to the 1kw size, he should choose a smaller inverter. Maybe one of the PS 2.5kw (24 volts). That about does it for Trace products. Anyone know of battery supported SW line tie inverters by other manufacturers? Best, Don Loweburg - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From i2p at aol.com Mon Apr 10 21:49:32 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (i2p at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 18:49:32 -0700 Subject: IPP Web Site [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.557518967-951758591-955417772@topica.com> Hello all wrenchs, Don Loweburg here. Just made a deal with Michael to spruce up the IPP web site. It's been languishing for some time. I'm sure he has some good ideas and I want o archive the IPP articles. We also will have our own site (i2p.org) after its relocated. The question is what do we want? My feeling is the site belongs to the wrenches. Michael can work on it in about a month and the resource are limited. The deal for Michaels services is a fixed amount so he has the final say on what can and can not be done. Understanding that,. What should the site be? I really need some ideas and as I said the site belongs to the wrenches. Put it out there. Best, Don - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From wkennedy at jademountain.com Tue Apr 11 17:54:30 2000 From: wkennedy at jademountain.com (Wes Kennedy) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 14:54:30 -0700 Subject: Water Wheel hydro power? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.701221092-951758591-955490070@topica.com> Hi Gang, Anybody have any experience with calculating power available from a hydro site when using the overshot water wheel? I remember reading an article in an old Home Power, but I can't find the formula. Thanks! Wes Kennedy Evolutionary Technologist "Your philosophy is not what you believe, it's how you live!" -j rubin - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From bob at energyoutfitters.com Tue Apr 11 18:04:45 2000 From: bob at energyoutfitters.com (Bob Maynard) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:04:45 -0700 Subject: Water Wheel hydro power? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1841547436-951758591-955490685@topica.com> Hi Wes, One of my charts titled"Typical Efficiency Ranges for Small Water Wheels and Turbines" states: Undershot 25-45%, Breast 35-65%, Poncelot 40-60%, Overshot 60-75%, Reaction 80%, Impulse 80-85%, Crossflow 60-80%. You should be able to caculate theoretical power and then apply the efficiency. If I find something more solid, I'll let you know. Bob Maynard Energy Outfitters Wes Kennedy wrote: > Hi Gang, > > Anybody have any experience with calculating power available from a > hydro site when using the overshot water wheel? I remember reading > an article in an old Home Power, but I can't find the formula. > > Thanks! > Wes Kennedy > Evolutionary Technologist > > "Your philosophy is not what you believe, it's how you live!" > -j rubin > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > _________________________________________________________ > Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From ellison at gisco.net Tue Apr 11 21:17:12 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:17:12 -0700 Subject: Wrenches in Minnesota [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1714086063-951758591-955502232@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 1315 bytes Desc: not available URL: From michael.welch at homepower.com Tue Apr 11 21:43:45 2000 From: michael.welch at homepower.com (Michael Welch) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:43:45 -0700 Subject: Water Wheel hydro power? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.305382111-951758591-955503825@topica.com> At 02:54 PM 4/11/2000 -0700, you wrote: >Hi Gang, > >Anybody have any experience with calculating power available from a hydro site when using the overshot water wheel? I remember reading an article in an old Home Power, but I can't find the formula. > >Thanks! >Wes Kennedy There's a pretty good microhydro discussion list and the members seem very ready to help answer questions. Subscribe by sending a message to microhydro-subscribe at eGroups.com Michael Welch ------------------------ "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." Edward Abbey Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com Associate Editor, Home Power magazine Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From steve at backwoodssolar.com Wed Apr 12 11:19:48 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Backwoods Solar Electric Systems) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:19:48 -0700 Subject: Wrenches in Minnesota [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1650230262-212058698-955552788@topica.com> Bob, call me if you don't get a system in the right area. I have one in St Paul area, and sharview, Springpark, minneapolis, Plymouth, finland, Grand Marias, lots in Hovland, Two harbors, cook, Ely, hibling, big one in duluth, Rochester etc. can't give names without permission. We can probably find someone if you give closest 5 towns or zip codes are best. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems From: Bob Ellison To: RE-wrenches at topica. com Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 6:17 PM Subject: Wrenches in Minnesota [RE-wrenches] > Wrenches, > > I spoke to a woman in Minnesota today who wants to see an off grid power > system. Anybody know of any names of people in that area who would be > willing to show her a system? > She is supposed to call me back, believe it or not she was calling me to > sell me electricity! > > Thanks, > Bob > > > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From microhydro at dplus.net Wed Apr 12 18:40:40 2000 From: microhydro at dplus.net (Ron Macleod) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 15:40:40 -0700 Subject: Water Wheel hydro power? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.923265693-951758591-955579240@topica.com> Hello Wes - Ian et.al. Sorry not to respond sooner - I've been out of town. Wes - a "well designed" overshot wheel can achieve 80 - 85 % eff. at the wheel shaft. One of their best attributes is they maintain eff. over a wide variation in flow. It is also true that they cannot handle much loss of head. One reality is that to get these kind of eff. an overshot needs a minimum of 12 feet of head.In a good design one needs 14 to 16 inches of head over the "Chute" that delivers water to the wheel and about 4 inches of clearance between the wheel and tailwater. Two feet so far. If the wheel radius is much less that 5 feet the buckets start to dump water too high up the wheel and effectivly head is lost. Thus 12 feet. Other realitys are the low speed and high torque and massive wheel weight (steel construction is the only way to go).With a prime mover at say 12 RPM speed increase to a generator can be pretty lossy. A good steel wheel with appropriate mechanical power tansmission and generator is a pretty expensive deal. Example - 12 food diameter steel wheel - 40" wide with shaft and bearings - say $14000.00 - power transmission another $ 1000.00 - low speed Jacobs wind generator (270rpm - 48 volts) $2200.00. So - anyway - figure the power available from your available flow and head - and assume about 55-60% overall sys eff. water to wire. Water wheels are very cool and pretty to boot. In 20 years I've only installed one - thus above #'s. I have just sold the same customer a small francis turbine with alternator which will match the output of the wheel for less than half the cost. It runs at about 450 rpm and weighs about 276 pounds as opposed to over 4000. Ley me know if you have more questions. - Best Ron Wes Kennedy wrote: > > Hi Gang, > > Anybody have any experience with calculating power available from a > hydro site when using the overshot water wheel? I remember reading > an article in an old Home Power, but I can't find the formula. > > Thanks! > Wes Kennedy > Evolutionary Technologist > > "Your philosophy is not what you believe, it's how you live!" > -j rubin > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > _________________________________________________________ > Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From solar at eagle-access.net Thu Apr 13 10:43:03 2000 From: solar at eagle-access.net (Drake Chamberlin - Electrical Energy) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 07:43:03 -0700 Subject: RE LAB: Wiring Made Easy? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.569305767-212058698-955636983@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 30905 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ecoelec at rof.net Thu Apr 13 14:05:01 2000 From: ecoelec at rof.net (Pat Kiernan) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 11:05:01 -0700 Subject: RE LAB: Wiring Made Easy? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2112910177-951758591-955649101@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 4047 bytes Desc: not available URL: From richard.perez at homepower.com Thu Apr 13 15:19:03 2000 From: richard.perez at homepower.com (Richard Perez, Home Power magazine) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 12:19:03 -0700 Subject: UL standard 1741 OR lockable visible disconnect [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.400466053-212058698-955653543@topica.com> Hello Bill and the RE Wrench List How about it Wrenches, can we help Bill out? Have any of you done a UTI system and had the IBEW and/or the utility waive the visible/lockable disconnect? In my considered opinion, the "visible/lockable disconnect" is about as useful as tits on a boar. Any UTI inverter meeting current IEEE specs will be off line minutes to hours before anyone operates the visible/lockable disconnect. And it will stay off until the gird returns and is stable. I don't anyone who has done a "legal" UTI system without the visible/lockable disconnect, but I think that the Wrenches may. I know of many guerrilla system who obviously operate with the visible/lockable disconnect. No problems so far. Richard At 08:44 -0400 04/13/2000, Bill Powell wrote: >Richard: > >greetings from Vermont! > >We met at the Portland Solar meeting June 99. At that time Vermont had >just put its net metering rules into place. > >We are now in the process of firming up the requirements (via a >rulemaking procedure by the Vermont Public Service Board). There is a >proposed provision now for this requirement to be waived by the >particular utility, which is the route we are advocating. > >With several of the local R/E guys we @ Washington Electric Co-op (HP >subscriber) have maintained, in a net metering installation with static >generation source with inverters meeting the anti-islanding specs in UL >1741, that there is no need for a visible lockable disconnect. > >Another of the parties involved are the IBEW locals who work for the >Co-op and other distribution utilities in VT. There are some strong >feelings there about their perceived need for visible/lockable >disconnects. > >Do you have some references where for intertied generation the matter of >visible/lockable disconnect has been an issue, or where the IBEW has >worked with R/E installers to overcome utility resistance on this >particular matter? > >Any other suggestions for how to allay union concerns for worker safety >in this area? > >Bill Powell >Director, Products and Services >Washington Electric Co-op >East Montpelier, VT >802.223.5245 ------------------------------------ Richard Perez Home Power PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA Tele: 530-475-3179 FAX: 530-475-0836 Subscriptions: 800-707-6585 mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com Web: http://www.homepower.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From sunwise at win.bright.net Thu Apr 13 18:22:18 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (sunwise at win.bright.net) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 15:22:18 -0700 Subject: UL standard 1741 OR lockable visible disconnect [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1951125513-951758591-955664538@topica.com> In response to the visible lockable disconnect on utility inter-tie systems, I have installed two systems in the Alliant/Wisconsin Power and Light territory. In one case, the system was being installed in an earth sheltered/roofed underground home and I really wanted to avoid conduit runs from the utility room of the home and the exterior of the dwelling. The inspector I spoke with at Alliant asked what type of inverter I was using and when I explained it was a Trace SW, he said he would not require the exterior disconnect. They did the same deal at another install in their territory, though I must say that while working with them, I got the impression it was all new to them and they were taking their cues from me. Also, both these systems went in the summer before last, and yet I am still getting calls from Alliant asking for more spec's and info on the systems. It is very interesting to note that the Trace owner's/installation manual specifically states that the visible lockable disconnect must be installed! Go figure. Kurt Nelson - SOLutions - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From quicksilver at eagle-access.net Thu Apr 13 19:49:19 2000 From: quicksilver at eagle-access.net (Don Wallingford) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 16:49:19 -0700 Subject: Lockable Disconnect [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1744211857-212058698-955669759@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 1248 bytes Desc: not available URL: From toddcory at jps.net Thu Apr 13 20:18:35 2000 From: toddcory at jps.net (Todd Cory) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 17:18:35 -0700 Subject: Lockable Disconnect [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.699726204-212058698-955671515@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 1589 bytes Desc: not available URL: From aurora at toad.net Thu Apr 13 21:38:31 2000 From: aurora at toad.net (Jason Fisher) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 18:38:31 -0700 Subject: Lockable Disconnect [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1461230731-951758591-955676311@topica.com> comrades Don't most utilities already have a visible lockable disconnect mounted outside the dwelling, namely the meter? Pulling the meter was an old way of disconnecting a house from the utility before mains and it remains the preferred way for utilities to disconnect delinquent customers today, and the case is lockable. I have also never seen a visible lockable disconnect required for even a legally inspected installation of a backup generator and automatic transfer switch. I commonly refer to my grid tied systems as "solar electrical generators" with inspectors to draw parallels with things that they are familiar with. Because as we all know here, the big differences are not in their safety and sophistication, but are in their pollution production. keep up the up -- Jason Fisher Aurora Energy 86 Conduit St. Annapolis, MD 21401 USA Voice/ Fax: 410-268-3088 email: aurora at toad.net - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From solar at eagle-access.net Fri Apr 14 11:52:28 2000 From: solar at eagle-access.net (Drake Chamberlin - Electrical Energy) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 08:52:28 -0700 Subject: Lockable Disconnect [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.396129823-951758591-955727548@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 3821 bytes Desc: not available URL: From toddcory at jps.net Fri Apr 14 15:16:43 2000 From: toddcory at jps.net (Todd Cory) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 12:16:43 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: Lockable Disconnect [RE-wrenches]] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1646808123-212058698-955739803@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 3523 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gosolar at win.bright.net Fri Apr 14 16:00:09 2000 From: gosolar at win.bright.net (G.N. Solar) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 13:00:09 -0700 Subject: Wrenches in Minnesota [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.941082904-951758591-955742409@topica.com> > Wrenches, I spoke to a woman in Minnesota today who wants to see an >off grid power system. Anybody know of any names of people in that area >who would be willing to show her a system? She is supposed to call me >back, believe it or not she was calling me to sell me electricity! >Thanks, Bob Dear Bob: Where in MN? We have several installs there and may be able to help. Energetically, Chris Great Northern Solar 77450 Evergreen Road, Suite #1 Port Wing, WI 54865 715-774-3374 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From sunwise at win.bright.net Sat Apr 15 12:28:10 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (sunwise at win.bright.net) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 09:28:10 -0700 Subject: Lockable disconnect [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.720348097-951758591-955816090@topica.com> Greetings Wrenchers, I mentioned a couple systems I did where the outdoor (visable) lockable disconnect was waved by Alliant power. Though it made a big difference in the underground home where getting a run to the building exterior was painful, I don't see this thing as a big deal. In fact, I see the disconnect as essentially a transition device, as utilities learn to accept renewables onto 'their' lines. A 60 amp exterior disconnect of the type used on exterior air conditioner units fits the bill and can be had for about $30US. A much bigger issue is insurance. While I have had some clients with a home owner's policy that covered the insurance requirement with no additional premimium charge, on two systems I did the home owner was told that by entering into an agreement with the utility for them to purchase energy from the homeowner, the homeowner was entering into a business agreement and any policy covering such an arrangement had to be a comercial or business policy, which translates into at least $200 yearly. Even when I explained that there would be no solar net gain on any mothly billing period (no payment from the utility), the #$!& insurance people wouldn't have it. Ya gotta spin a meter backwards a whole bunch to cover that kind of annual expenses! One of these systems managed to get the system covered by their other off-site business policy and the other system is now guerrilla. I have another system where the insurance may be part of the reason that the Trace is left in the LBX mode, which is a lot less efficient than grid-tied. Dealing with the big utilities is a royal pain, but add the scumb-bucket insurance people into the mix and things get real shitty. Kurt Nelson - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From i2p at aol.com Sat Apr 15 13:00:25 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (i2p at aol.com) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 10:00:25 -0700 Subject: Lockable disconnect [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1984564546-951758591-955818025@topica.com> Kurt, Your experience with insurance is the reason that most netmeter laws include insurance language. Of course getting it applied in the field is the nitty gritty of the matter. Best, Don Loweburg - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From aurora at toad.net Sat Apr 15 22:13:07 2000 From: aurora at toad.net (Jason Fisher) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 19:13:07 -0700 Subject: Trace gridtied [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.75638442-951758591-955851187@topica.com> Greetings wrenches, I had a question which is based on: Kurt Nelson wrote: > the Trace is left in the LBX mode, which is a lot less efficient than > grid-tied. > Why is this? I have a bunch of net-metered systems selling away and I'm not too sure about the performance of the Trace and battery versions. While the sell mode is the most hands-off and convenient for a grid-tied backup system, I'm dubious as to how good it is at selling that power. In the typical system with battery backup, I have a 4 kW or even 5.5 kW inverter selling around 1.5 kW worth of PV for most of the day. I've been planning on setting up a monitored system to get some hard results but based on what I've witnessed, and what I've heard from others, the overall efficiency of the unit in this mode seems to be in the 70% range or so. I've been considering shying away from the sell mode and using the LBX mode for clients who are willing to get more hands on with their system. This way I can put the inverter back in search mode and be confident that the PV will be used to its full capacity so long as the batteries aren't at float. This also gets rid of that daily float charge cycle that they set up in the sell mode, this must waste some juice. The big drawback is of course that most people want more backed up loads than the PV they bought can handle on a daily basis but that could be worked out. The thing I like about it is that it keeps the consumption issue out in front, instead of blurring it behind a slightly smaller utility bill. I also thought it should be better for the typical flooded batteries to see some use. What do you all think? Keep it up. -- Jason Fisher Aurora Energy 86 Conduit St. Annapolis, MD 21401 USA Voice/ Fax: 410-268-3088 email: aurora at toad.net - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From sunwise at win.bright.net Sun Apr 16 01:15:10 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (sunwise at win.bright.net) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 22:15:10 -0700 Subject: Trace gridtied [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.31746435-212058698-955862110@topica.com> Jason Fisher wrote: > > Greetings wrenches, > > I had a question which is based on: > > Kurt Nelson wrote: > > > the Trace is left in the LBX mode, which is a lot less efficient than > > grid-tied. I've been considering shying away from the sell mode and using > the LBX mode for clients who are willing to get more hands on with their > system. This is kurt again and I'm actually in agreement with you Jason. A number of factors come into play, but the biggest is the size of the back-up battery. The Trace not only keeps it topped of with PV all day, it keeps it topped off with grid at night. LBX systems can be designed that are more efficient, though if you factor in battery longeviety and if the battery get abused by (uneducated) owners? I'm finishing up a system as we speak that is a grid-tied LBX. We are switching a couple home appliances back and forth between the grid and solar, based on battery voltage, using the SW series AUX relays and thirty amp two throw contactors. The frig will go solar when the battery voltage comes up in the morning and drop off early in the evening as the voltage drops to about 25.2 (12.6). This also allows for the inverter to really sleep at night, as the frig has a defrost timer that would keep it up (DC nite lites). The addition of a small 120vac relay with the contactor's coil wired thru keeps the frig on the solar if utility power fails. In some ways I am suprised that the Trace gets wired exactly the same in a LBX as in a Sell, and only a menu button keeps a LBX from becoming truely utility interactive (that nobody has expressed concern). Does anyone know of any utilites expressing concern over this or with them having a problem with the type of system described above? > > > > Why is this? I have a bunch of net-metered systems selling away and I'm > not too sure about the performance of the Trace and battery versions. > While the sell mode is the most hands-off and convenient for a grid-tied > backup system, I'm dubious as to how good it is at selling that power. > In the typical system with battery backup, I have a 4 kW or even 5.5 kW > inverter selling around 1.5 kW worth of PV for most of the day. I've > been planning on setting up a monitored system to get some hard results > but based on what I've witnessed, and what I've heard from others, the > overall efficiency of the unit in this mode seems to be in the 70% range > or so. I've been considering shying away from the sell mode and using > the LBX mode for clients who are willing to get more hands on with their > system. This way I can put the inverter back in search mode and be > confident that the PV will be used to its full capacity so long as the > batteries aren't at float. This also gets rid of that daily float > charge cycle that they set up in the sell mode, this must waste some > juice. The big drawback is of course that most people want more backed > up loads than the PV they bought can handle on a daily basis but that > could be worked out. The thing I like about it is that it keeps the > consumption issue out in front, instead of blurring it behind a slightly > smaller utility bill. I also thought it should be better for the > typical flooded batteries to see some use. What do you all think? > > Keep it up. > -- > Jason Fisher > > Aurora Energy > 86 Conduit St. > Annapolis, MD 21401 > USA > > Voice/ Fax: 410-268-3088 > email: aurora at toad.net > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > _________________________________________________________ > Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Sun Apr 16 01:39:49 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (Sharkey) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 22:39:49 -0700 Subject: Trace gridtied [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.890702859-951758591-955863589@topica.com> >The Trace not only keeps it topped of with PV all day, >it keeps it topped off with grid at night. There is a quick and easy way to put the Trace to bed at night to prevent this, which I described a few months back. If anyone wants to hear it again, I'll re-post it. > This also gets rid of that daily float charge cycle that they set up in the sell mode, > this must waste some juice. Not really. My 1800 AH battery bank requires only 1½ amps to stay floated all day long, the rest goes back into the grid. When the PV's are cranking out 55 amps, the float current in the battery is negligible by comparison. -S - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From toddcory at jps.net Sun Apr 16 10:58:24 2000 From: toddcory at jps.net (Todd Cory) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 07:58:24 -0700 Subject: Trace gridtied [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.871665431-951758591-955897104@topica.com> Hello again wrenches, This reminds me of a concern I expressed to Trace while experimenting with the first grid interactive system I installed. To my thinking, having the inverter running at night while the grid was active seemed quite inefficient. I was after a way to have the inverter switch itself to be in standby mode unless: 1) the grid failed, or 2) the battery voltage got above the set point when it would go into the sell mode. IMO it would be way more efficient to NOT float charge the batteries all night and just have the inverter shut itself off. This would eliminate the 30 watts? of idle current the inverter draws continuously when running. "George", who's last name I forget said they were working on what he called a "silent sell" mode, which I guess became vaporware, as 3 years later is still not available. Todd Cory - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From sunwise at win.bright.net Sun Apr 16 19:55:17 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (sunwise at win.bright.net) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 16:55:17 -0700 Subject: Trace gridtied [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.21210213-951758591-955929317@topica.com> Sharkey wrote: > > > There is a quick and easy way to put the Trace to bed at night to prevent > this, which I described a few months back. If anyone wants to hear it > again, I'll re-post it. Hey Sharkey, I'd be interested in seeing that re-posted or send to me at sunwise at win.bright.net. I vaguely remember the previous discussion, but was less focused on it back then. Thanks -- Kurt > > > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > _________________________________________________________ > Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ________________________________________________________________________ Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register From ozsolar at ipa.net Mon Apr 17 09:37:59 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 06:37:59 -0700 Subject: Trace gridtied [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1090207494-951758591-955978679@topica.com> A couple of the benefits of Sell vs. LBX that I can see are Sell mode is simple. I have seen too many systems that were abandoned by the owner because his solar installer went out of business and he couldn't get a regular electrician (PV systems) or plumber (SDWH) to work on it. I often get calls to remove a system (mainly SDHW) that could be fixed easily but the customer doesn't want it because it's "too complex" and he is right. Trace along with many other manufacturers could be to blame for some of this. I work towards as simple as installations as possible. I feel like we are still on the bleeding edge with solar and we don't need any more black eyes than necessary. Batteries are always fully charged ready to backup the Sub panel. It would be unfortunate if the batteries were nearing LBX when the grid went down and needed charged within minutes into power outage. >From what I can see Sell mode produces more watts than LBX mode. This is probably more obvious in systems where the solar is barely keeping up with the loads but could also be obvious where the solar far exceeds the loads. In sell mode - a 30 amp array operating at 53.6 volts you are getting 1608 watts out of your array. I think we can agree on this? in LBX mode the system voltage is going to be all over the place. We could use 50 volts at the same 30 amps then your only getting 1500 watts out of your array. When there are few or no loads and the system voltage climbs up towards 57.6 then the charge controller starts to limit the array output where if you were in sell mode you would still be turning the meter at 1608 watts. I don't know how much of that 1608 watts gets to your meter (assuming the house doesn't use any) but shouldn't it be over 90%. Travis Creswell travis at ozarksolar.com Neosho, Missouri ---------- >From: Jason Fisher >To: Wrench List >Subject: Trace gridtied [RE-wrenches] >Date: Sat, Apr 15, 2000, 9:13 PM > >Greetings wrenches, > >I had a question which is based on: > >Kurt Nelson wrote: > >> the Trace is left in the LBX mode, which is a lot less efficient than >> grid-tied. >> > >Why is this? I have a bunch of net-metered systems selling away and I'm >not too sure about the performance of the Trace and battery versions. >While the sell mode is the most hands-off and convenient for a grid-tied >backup system, I'm dubious as to how good it is at selling that power. >In the typical system with battery backup, I have a 4 kW or even 5.5 kW >inverter selling around 1.5 kW worth of PV for most of the day. I've >been planning on setting up a monitored system to get some hard results >but based on what I've witnessed, and what I've heard from others, the >overall efficiency of the unit in this mode seems to be in the 70% range >or so. I've been considering shying away from the sell mode and using >the LBX mode for clients who are willing to get more hands on with their >system. This way I can put the inverter back in search mode and be >confident that the PV will be used to its full capacity so long as the >batteries aren't at float. This also gets rid of that daily float >charge cycle that they set up in the sell mode, this must waste some >juice. The big drawback is of course that most people want more backed >up loads than the PV they bought can handle on a daily basis but that >could be worked out. The thing I like about it is that it keeps the >consumption issue out in front, instead of blurring it behind a slightly >smaller utility bill. I also thought it should be better for the >typical flooded batteries to see some use. What do you all think? > >Keep it up. >-- >Jason Fisher > >Aurora Energy >86 Conduit St. >Annapolis, MD 21401 >USA > >Voice/ Fax: 410-268-3088 >email: aurora at toad.net > > >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: > >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >for info contact: >_________________________________________________________ >Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From gosolar at win.bright.net Mon Apr 17 12:41:32 2000 From: gosolar at win.bright.net (G.N. Solar) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 09:41:32 -0700 Subject: Lockable disconnect [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.128718136-212058698-955989692@topica.com> Greetings Wrenches: The insurance issue that Kurt Nelson raises is very real here in WI. It may be quite worse than anything that the Utilities have come up with to date. We have a net metering law in WI but the insurance Co.'s seem to be doing as they wish at this time. I suggested that the $'s total of payback from utilities does not constitute a business but my comments fall on pre-purchased ears. We need to get on the ball with this one or our payback timeline went from too long to infinite. Enegetically, Chris LaForge Great Northern Solar 77450 Evergreen Road, Suite #1 Port Wing, WI 54865 715-774-3374 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From j.lamb at pecorp.com Mon Apr 17 13:50:51 2000 From: j.lamb at pecorp.com (j.lamb at pecorp.com) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 10:50:51 -0700 Subject: Net Meter / Labor bill. Disconnect [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.60888911-212058698-955993851@topica.com> > Greetings Wrenches: > In IIlinois, the net metering program is for Commonwealth Edison area only (only Northern Illinois) and it is on an experimental basis only? They require 2 meters that Edison will install at their cost. A disconnect is required at who's cost? The rest of Illinois does not have net metering and Edison was against it and the bill died in committee. Edison wants to look green but on their terms. The readings from the 2 meters are to be taken and the Electric company will calculate what you use and then they are to charge you for the taxes even for the electricity you use from solar? First of all a customer known to me only uses less than $ 2.00 a month from them and the rest is solar and since the usage is low it took them 5 months to send a bill and they calculated it wrong and still owe the customer $10.00. So if they cannot calculate a low usage bill right how are they going to calculate taxes right and how would You get a refund if it was calculated wrong. WHAT WE NEED IS A NET LABOR BILL SO IF THEY CALCULATE IT WRONG. THEY SHOULD PAY FOR YOUR TIME. THEY CHARGE YOU A SERVICE CHARGE DON"T THEY These Details are insane and it is still not clear how this is to work since I know no one on this program. Who wants it. I dont since I do not want to look at 2 meters. Has this been done anywhere else? I heard that Oregon proposed it but it was changed? I know nothing on the isurance issue yet in this area. JIM LAMB MIDDLE FORK ENGINEERING > ---------- > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From toddcory at jps.net Mon Apr 17 14:07:18 2000 From: toddcory at jps.net (Todd Cory) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:07:18 -0700 Subject: Net Meter / Labor bill. Disconnect [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.391184557-951758591-955994838@topica.com> I have a friend that is attempting to legally interface (via some Trace microsines PV) into the grid. The local utility, Pacific Power & Light is requiring him to pay $500.00 for a dual metering installation. I am not sure what this is for since it will be a net metering system. In addition, he will be required to install our old friend, Mr. Lockable Disconnect. No research of liability insurance increases for his home policy yet... all this for 8, 60 watt PV's... less than 500 watts. Doesn't seem very green friendly to my thinking. TC - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From i2p at aol.com Mon Apr 17 14:20:14 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (i2p at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:20:14 -0700 Subject: Lockable disconnect [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.369849205-212058698-955995614@topica.com> In a message dated 04/17/2000 9:42:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time, gosolar at win.bright.net writes: << Greetings Wrenches: The insurance issue that Kurt Nelson raises is very real here in WI. >> Chris, I take it that insurance companies regard net metering as a buisness. Am I right that no $ change hands, no utility checks written to customers?. Since there are many insurance companies has anyone switched to a more cooperative company. Is there something about the net law in your state that is different than Ca? Don Loweburg - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From i2p at aol.com Mon Apr 17 14:20:34 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (i2p at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:20:34 -0700 Subject: Trace gridtied [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2053481154-212058698-955995634@topica.com> In a message dated 04/17/2000 6:38:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ozsolar at ipa.net writes: << A couple of the benefits of Sell vs. LBX that I can see are >> Travis, I agree. The overhead to maintain batteries at float in sel mode may be objectionable but when you start cycling them on a daily basis it only gets worse. The logistics and possible customer confusion concerning the operation of the system may also override any benefits of lbx (I don't see there are any- except that technically you are no longer grid interactive). Ive also found that battery watering requirements are less frequent in sel mode compared to daily cycling. That makes sense to me. Don Loweburg Offline Independent Energy Systems - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From michael.welch at homepower.com Mon Apr 17 17:35:45 2000 From: michael.welch at homepower.com (Michael Welch) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 14:35:45 -0700 Subject: Trace gridtied [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.527291597-951758591-956007345@topica.com> At 04:55 PM 04/16/2000 -0700, sunwise at win.bright.net wrote: >Hey Sharkey, > >I'd be interested in seeing that re-posted or send to me at >sunwise at win.bright.net. I vaguely remember the previous discussion, but >was less focused on it back then. Thanks -- Kurt I don't mind seeing re-posts on stuff, but I want to remind everyone that all our previous messages are archived at http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ Michael Welch ------------------------ "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." Edward Abbey Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com Associate Editor, Home Power magazine Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From sunpwr at jps.net Mon Apr 17 18:30:25 2000 From: sunpwr at jps.net (Chuck Heath) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:30:25 -0700 Subject: Net Meter / Labor bill. Disconnect [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.52193006-951758591-956010625@topica.com> On 4-17-2000, Todd Cory gathered his neurons to express in pixels... > The local utility, Pacific Power & Light is requiring him to pay $500.00 >for a dual metering installation. I am not sure what this is for since it will >be a net metering system. In addition, he will be required to install our old >friend, Mr. Lockable Disconnect. Egads! And how many years will it be before he even breaks-even with those added costs? Sounds as if PP&L needs to do _their_ homework and talk to specialists on PV grid tie at SMUD (Sacramento Municipal Utilities District). I believe their url is: www.smud.org or any other commercial utility which is more accepting of RE power. Cordially, Chuck _another NSAD day here, "No Sun All Day", #32 for the season_ - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ________________________________________________________________________ Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register From carlson at pe.net Mon Apr 17 20:52:24 2000 From: carlson at pe.net (Scott Carlson) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 17:52:24 -0700 Subject: Trace gridtied [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2136095422-951758591-956019144@topica.com> I also agree with Travis on the Sell vs. LBX with the addition that the customer gets no flickering in the sell mode compared to the LBX mode everytime LBX connects or disconnects from the grid. Scott Carlson Solar ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, April 17, 2000 11:20 AM Subject: Re: Trace gridtied [RE-wrenches] > In a message dated 04/17/2000 6:38:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > ozsolar at ipa.net writes: > > << A couple of the benefits of Sell vs. LBX that I can see are > >> > Travis, I agree. The overhead to maintain batteries at float in sel mode may > be objectionable but when you start cycling them on a daily basis it only > gets worse. The logistics and possible customer confusion concerning the > operation of the system may also override any benefits of lbx (I don't see > there are any- except that technically you are no longer grid interactive). > Ive also found that battery watering requirements are less frequent in sel > mode compared to daily cycling. That makes sense to me. > > Don Loweburg > Offline Independent Energy Systems > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > _________________________________________________________ > Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ________________________________________________________________________ Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register From wstahle at slonet.org Mon Apr 17 23:30:14 2000 From: wstahle at slonet.org (wstahle at slonet.org) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 20:30:14 -0700 Subject: Lockable Disconnect [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1766764160-951758591-956028614@topica.com> > REenchers, Please allow me to disagree with all the fuss about the "unecessary" lockable disconnect in a grid tied system. First off, the argument that the inverter is failsafe because it has redundant safety circutry sounds like the same argument the utility uses to justify nuclear power plants. Also the fact that one has not failed yet, does not prove that one can't fail. Inverters are complex electronic devices and like nuke plants, it is the folks who design, build, sell, and profit from them who extoll their infalibility. > ..... every mains panel I have ever seen also has a place for a lock > at the bottom to prevent opening the cover... it would be oh so easy > for the power company to slip their special lock into this to prevent > the system owner from turning the inverter 2 way feed circuit breaker > ON again. Just how does this differ from a lockable disconnect?? Secondly, if we agree that safety of the workman is a prime consideration, and that having a disconnect means is a reasonable condition of intertie, then we can also assume that the lineman might use it to disconnect an alternate source of power. Now as more systems go online that could add up to a lot of disconnect and reconnect time before and after the line work. Now why would a utility want to lock a customer out of their own breaker panel and to the other circuts therin while still in use, when they can simply require you to have an external and idiot proof lockable disconnect that provides them and the lineman true failsafe protection from backfeed. Some of you argue that disconnects are unecessary. Well the utilities seem to think that grid tied is is unecessary. Given the the costs of the systems in question, it seems a small price to pay for the peace of mind to the lineman and utility. There are bigger battles to fight in the war of the public grid (commons ?). This is not one to spend your energy on. The disconnect is a simple cheap safety valve. Get used to it. Respectfully, Wallace Stahle - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From ozsolar at ipa.net Tue Apr 18 15:47:24 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 12:47:24 -0700 Subject: Selling PV or other RE [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.155845427-212058698-956087244@topica.com> Fellow RE-Wrenches I am wanting to integrate PV and Wind into a model home that we are thinking about building. I'll never be able to sell this place if it doesn't have air conditioning so it will be hooked up to the grid. If my only goal is to sell power back to the grid then I need to forget about batteries and go with a the new Trace Sun Tie (I think that is it). There is also some others battery less inverters out there but I don't know anything about them. Any suggestions? Grid Tied and no batteries can make a lot sense. 1000 watts of solar actually = 1000 watts of solar and the money saved by not having to buy batteries can go towards even more solar plus the inverter is whole lot cheaper. I just hate to loose the independence, what I have always considered one of the best things about solar, when the batteries go away. Anyway, I'll probably go with a battery system so the home will have backup power plus there are no tax incentives in Missouri anyway. OK here is my question. Assuming I use SW4048 I would need to limit the RE energy sources to 4000 watts? The budget won't allow 4000 watts of PV but a 3000 watt (whisper 175) wind generator is a possibility. What happens if I want to go over 4000 watts in the future? Would I add a second SW4048? Would they need to be separate from each other or could they wired into a common DC buss (DC175 or Pulse PC500). Most of the year the wind generator won't be putting out the 3000 watts but I would have to design the possibility into the system. Thanks Travis Creswell Ozark Solar - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From sales at dankoffsolar.com Tue Apr 18 16:55:02 2000 From: sales at dankoffsolar.com (Kim Bowker) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 13:55:02 -0700 Subject: Selling PV or other RE [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1548759353-951758591-956091302@topica.com> Hello Travis, Unfortunately there are no inverters that will take a wind generators variable output directly. For a grid intertie system you can use the Trace SW series inverter with a small bank of batteries in between the wind generator and the inverter. Regardless of the presence of batteries in the system, your inverter output must be sized big enough to handle the entire potential load flowing through it with some oversizing for safety. In fact since wind generator dump loads & fuses are often oversized by 50% for safety you are better off using a SW5548 with the Whisper 175 and 1000 watts of PV. The wind generator would go into its EZ wire center and then a fuse before the battery bank. The PV should be on a separate circuit although it there is a power center in the system you could utilize DC circuits within that box for both generating sources. >Fellow RE-Wrenches > >I am wanting to integrate PV and Wind into a model home that we are thinking >about building. I'll never be able to sell this place if it doesn't have >air conditioning so it will be hooked up to the grid. > >If my only goal is to sell power back to the grid then I need to forget >about batteries and go with a the new Trace Sun Tie (I think that is it). >There is also some others battery less inverters out there but I don't >know anything about them. Any suggestions? Grid Tied and no batteries can >make a lot sense. 1000 watts of solar actually = 1000 watts of solar and >the money saved by not having to buy batteries can go towards even more >solar plus the inverter is whole lot cheaper. I just hate to loose the >independence, what I have always considered one of the best things about >solar, when the batteries go away. > >Anyway, I'll probably go with a battery system so the home will have backup >power plus there are no tax incentives in Missouri anyway. > >OK here is my question. Assuming I use SW4048 I would need to limit the RE >energy sources to 4000 watts? The budget won't allow 4000 watts of PV but a >3000 watt (whisper 175) wind generator is a possibility. What happens if I >want to go over 4000 watts in the future? Would I add a second SW4048? >Would they need to be separate from each other or could they wired into a >common DC buss (DC175 or Pulse PC500). Most of the year the wind generator >won't be putting out the 3000 watts but I would have to design the >possibility into the system. > >Thanks >Travis Creswell >Ozark Solar > > > > >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: > >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >for info contact: >_________________________________________________________ >Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 Kim Bowker Dankoff Solar Products, Inc. Wholesale distributor of solar-electric equipment Manufacturer & distributor of solar water pumps 2810 Industrial Rd. Santa Fe, NM 87505 (505) 473-3800 FAX 473-3830 E-mail: pumps at dankoffsolar.com http://www.dankoffsolar.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From steve at backwoodssolar.com Tue Apr 18 18:40:24 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Backwoods Solar Electric Systems) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 15:40:24 -0700 Subject: Selling PV or other RE [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1749101014-951758591-956097624@topica.com> WRENCHES! Who can do repairs on Todd chargers of the original style? I have a customer wanting a repair which the factory will not do. Someone on the wrench list mentioned that but I have not saved the messages that far back. We will refer this customer to you directly if you can do that bit of magic. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems A catalog business on a mountain 2 miles from utility lines, powered entirely by our catalog products. IF UTILITY POWER IS 1/2 MILE OR MORE FROM YOUR SITE, get our free 160 page solar-electric Planning Guide/Catalog. (Your postal address required - Our list is never given or sold). Phone(208)263-4290 Fax (208) 265-4788 in Idaho, USA - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From aurora at toad.net Wed Apr 19 07:43:15 2000 From: aurora at toad.net (Jason Fisher) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 04:43:15 -0700 Subject: Lockable Disconnect [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1674181257-212058698-956144595@topica.com> Wrenches, More disconnect discontent. I would again reiterate one point. Why are there not the same requirements for backup fossil fuel generators if we consider auto transfer switches unsafe? Also, I have only had one electrical inspector in my area comment on a disconnect switch but in this case, he was more interested in how to shut down the system's battery bank in the event of a building fire. "How can we protect the firemen from getting shocked when in the building and how do they disconnect power in the event of an electrical fire" (or something like that). I though it was a reasonable question considering that normally utility service is cut immediately during a building fire. Luckily for me, he let me slide though it started me thinking. Will we soon be required to place a 600 Amp 250 VDC NEMA3 switch on the outside of the building between the battery bank and the inverter? I'll be getting out of this business if we are! Anybody else run into similar concerns? -- Jason Fisher Aurora Energy 86 Conduit St. Annapolis, MD 21401 USA Voice/ Fax: 410-268-3088 email: aurora at toad.net - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ________________________________________________________________________ Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register From aurora at toad.net Wed Apr 19 07:43:17 2000 From: aurora at toad.net (Jason Fisher) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 04:43:17 -0700 Subject: Trace gridtied [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.682978872-951758591-956144597@topica.com> Wrenches, Thanks for the good discussions on the LBX vs Sell mode. I think allot of good points were made. I like Kurt's relay examples. With regards to the system voltage point Travis made, has anyone had good or bad experiences with any MPPT controllers out there? I still think that by watching the system go up and down, the owners can get a better idea of what the solar is producing, and what they are consuming. I firmly agree, however, that the Sell mode is the way to go for clients who want a hands-off system. Anybody know of a simple DC kWhr meter for a PV source (besides the C40 LCD)? I've considered trying to make one but I'm more of a cable splicer than an electronics solderer. Anyone else made something like this? Thanks and keep it up. -- Jason Fisher Aurora Energy 86 Conduit St. Annapolis, MD 21401 USA Voice/ Fax: 410-268-3088 email: aurora at toad.net - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From steve at backwoodssolar.com Wed Apr 19 10:49:10 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Backwoods Solar Electric Systems) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 07:49:10 -0700 Subject: Trace gridtied [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1421915661-212058698-956155750@topica.com> Jason: We have been testing the RV Solar Boost 50 controllers all winter (from RV Power products in Encinitas, CA) . I installed about 900 watts solar some 200 feet from our 12 volt battery bank as winter supplement, using a 24 volt solar module demo trailer that would otherwise be parked out of the sun all winter. To make the 200 foot distance to a 12 volt battery bank, I divided the array in two sections 450 watts each, at 24 volts, brought them in on 4 gauge wire at 24 volts and used the Solar Boost 50 control. This unit has a feature where you can feed it 24 volt nominal and it converts to 12 volt charging output doubling the amps, and gives MPPT as well. Actually we started with a Solar converters product on one array and the Boost 50 on the other. I found the Solar converters control to be very versatile with features for the more technical designer, but packaged poorly for marketing, and we had continuing problems with adjustments and function. The Solar Boost 50 is well packaged, with optional digital metering showing input current and converted output current. It does the 24 to 12 conversion well. The MPPT gave good gain of course in cold weather at high power levels, but in low light conditions there was actual loss of power input to output. I switched both arrays to this product and have had no problem in function or adjustment. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems A catalog business on a mountain 2 miles from utility lines, powered entirely by our catalog products. IF UTILITY POWER IS 1/2 MILE OR MORE FROM YOUR SITE, get our free 160 page solar-electric Planning Guide/Catalog. (Your postal address required - Our list is never given or sold). Phone(208)263-4290 Fax (208) 265-4788 in Idaho, USA ----- Original Message ----- From: Jason Fisher To: Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2000 4:43 AM Subject: Re: Trace gridtied [RE-wrenches] > Wrenches, > > Thanks for the good discussions on the LBX vs Sell mode. I think allot > of good points were made. I like Kurt's relay examples. With regards > to the system voltage point Travis made, has anyone had good or bad > experiences with any MPPT controllers out there? I still think that by > watching the system go up and down, the owners can get a better idea of > what the solar is producing, and what they are consuming. I firmly > agree, however, that the Sell mode is the way to go for clients who want > a hands-off system. > > Anybody know of a simple DC kWhr meter for a PV source (besides the C40 > LCD)? I've considered trying to make one but I'm more of a cable > splicer than an electronics solderer. Anyone else made something like > this? > > Thanks and keep it up. > -- > Jason Fisher > > Aurora Energy > 86 Conduit St. > Annapolis, MD 21401 > USA > > Voice/ Fax: 410-268-3088 > email: aurora at toad.net > > > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > _________________________________________________________ > Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ________________________________________________________________________ Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register From toddcory at jps.net Wed Apr 19 12:22:35 2000 From: toddcory at jps.net (Todd Cory) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 09:22:35 -0700 Subject: Watt-sun tarcker situation resolved [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2085873992-951758591-956161355@topica.com> Hi list members, A few months ago I posted a note about Wattsun trackers and one installed system in particular (12 volt) that has had numerous failures. I am happy to report that shortly after that posting, I got a call from Ron at Array Technologies. He supplied a new drive motor and a 12 to 24 volt DC to DC converter. This was approximately 2 months ago and after this "burn in" period, the unit it still operating flawlessly. Hopefully by posting this I will not "jinx" the system. Ron has tried really hard to get this system to work, and I think getting the operating system's voltage in the 24 volt range has made all the difference. I would publicly like to thank Ron at Array Technologies for his persistence to "make it right". Todd Cory -- Todd Cory KE6SXS toddcory at jps.net Bald Mountain Solar P.O. Box 689 Mt. Shasta, Ca. 96067 (530) 926-1079 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From sunwise at win.bright.net Thu Apr 20 09:59:38 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (sunwise at win.bright.net) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 06:59:38 -0700 Subject: Trace gridtied [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1760380294-212058698-956239178@topica.com> Jason Fisher wrote: > > > Anybody know of a simple DC kWhr meter for a PV source (besides the C40 > LCD)? Hey Jason, consider Crusing Equipment's E-meter. Installed as a whole house meter, it will give good readings on PV current when loads in the home are off (reads what ever is going into or out of the battery and also displays accumulated Amp Hours). Bobier Electronics produces a multi-channel meter called something like Powermaster? (used to be OmniMeter) and it can read three channels in addition to the main battery channel with accumulated amp hours for each. At least twice the price of the E-meter, but is fun to play with especially when plugged into a PC with Joe's "Omni-Link" software. In regards to the difference between transfer switches on gen-sets vs. utility interactive inverters, the gen-set is not designed to back-feed the grid which may be why the utility is so confused on the issue. I still say we should give em the disconnect and save the battle for bigger issues (in Wisconsin, insurance!). Kurt Nelson > Voice/ Fax: 410-268-3088 > email: aurora at toad.net > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > _________________________________________________________ > Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From wstahle at slonet.org Fri Apr 21 04:34:47 2000 From: wstahle at slonet.org (wstahle at slonet.org) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 01:34:47 -0700 Subject: Lockable Disconnect [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1224683545-212058698-956306087@topica.com> Jason and all, Regarding battery disconnect for Fire Dept. Last spring when I pulled permits for two systems here in San Luis Obispo , the issuing official indicated that the one that had the PV and batt at the opposite end of the house from the meter ( long and narrow at that) would require clear indication at the main service of the presence of an alternate source of power and the location of system components. He also said there would have to be a remote disconnect means for the same at main service. Needless to say this was cause for much concern to the person who designed and sold the system, (not me). Calls were made to Trace for remote shut down options and whatnot but to no avail. By the time the final (and only) inspection was called for, I had talked to Bill Brooks at PV USA who referenced conversations he had with building officials in San Jose who had concluded that remote shut down was not required but a location notice was, as I recall. Meanwhile, in SLO town, we were required to install a 60 amp disconnect on the outside of garage on the Trace output to satisfy the citys concern with power disconnect to back up panel. With that done we had only to indicate at the main service the location of this disconnect for the fire dept. As I recall, the talk with Bill included the idea that firemen are prepared for various and dangerous situations and with adequate warning can de-energize the alternate power source before choping through walls etc. It was a pretty simple fix for this job. In the future I know what to plan for. Ri-i-ght ! Wallace Stahle - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Fri Apr 21 10:48:59 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (Sharkey) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 07:48:59 -0700 Subject: That's Interesting! [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.63414525-951758591-956328539@topica.com> Wrenches; I just got a notification from my local utility that again they are raising rates, due in part to increased costs of purchasing power from the BPA and other sources. This utility has investments in the Foote Creek, Wyoming windpower facility, and offers an incremental mix of 10, 25, 50 or 100% wind generated power in household and business electric service delivery. The wind power rates are not being raised, and through some tinkering in the 'delivery' charges, customers with a 100% wind power supply will actually be paying *less* after the rate increases. Of course, the wind power costs more to begin with, but still less than many ratepayers put out for dirty power in other parts of the country. I'm signed up for 50% wind, and with the added power from my PV array, I can easily say that my electric vehicle is 100% renewable energy powered. Long live renewables! The best revenge is to see them come to par with traditional forms of energy. -S - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From michael.welch at homepower.com Fri Apr 21 12:27:08 2000 From: michael.welch at homepower.com (Michael Welch) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 09:27:08 -0700 Subject: Gentle reminder [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2030625135-212058698-956334428@topica.com> Hello gang. So far, only about 1/3 of you have filled out the survey form which allows the rest of us to know who you are. This info is very important in the kind of "community" list this is. Please go to http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/ and from there you can get to the correct page where the form is. Michael Welch ------------------------ "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." Edward Abbey Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com Associate Editor, Home Power magazine Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From aurora at toad.net Sat Apr 22 05:32:40 2000 From: aurora at toad.net (Jason Fisher) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 02:32:40 -0700 Subject: DC kWhr meter? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1530469907-212058698-956395960@topica.com> Jason Fisher wrote: > Anybody know of a simple DC kWhr meter for a PV source (besides the C40 > LCD)? sunwise at win.bright.net wrote: > consider Crusing Equipment's E-meter. Installed as a whole > house meter, it will give good readings on PV current when loads in the > home are off (reads what ever is going into or out of the battery and > also displays accumulated Amp Hours). Bobier Electronics produces a > multi-channel meter called something like Powermaster? (used to be > OmniMeter) Wrenches and Kurt, I've used such meters for battery systems, they are great but more complicated and expensive than I'd like for this application. I was hoping to only log kWhrs of PV production (or wind) in sell systems where the source does not make it to the battery. I have talked to Ethan Brand at Brand electronics and he's coming out with a AC & DC multichannel meter which sounds like it will be comparable with the pricey (yet sophisticated) Omnimeter, though I was still hoping for something simpler and cheaper (easier for clients). Any ideas? -- Jason Fisher Aurora Energy 86 Conduit St. Annapolis, MD 21401 USA Voice/ Fax: 410-268-3088 email: aurora at toad.net - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ________________________________________________________________________ Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register From cvsolar at aol.com Sat Apr 22 16:12:24 2000 From: cvsolar at aol.com (cvsolar at aol.com) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 13:12:24 -0700 Subject: DC250 HUMMMMMM [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1098489480-951758591-956434344@topica.com> Hi wrenches, I recently upgraded my own home system with a Trace DC250 Dicconnect Box to replace the old fuse from years ago and now have strange noises coming from the box. I get a variable pitch whine when the wind turbine is cranking (BWC1500) and otherwise have what appears to be a 60 cycle hum similar to a transformer when the inverter is loaded. The only thing different between this setup and all the others I have done for customers is that the 4/0 cables to the inverter are quite long at about 12' each (taped together to eliminate inductance) and also the DC250 is on a wall opposite the battery bank and I ran the plus wire out the lower left-hand knockout and thru the wall to the battery and the minus wire out the lower right knockout and thru the wall on that side to the batteries. This does cause considerable distance between the cables (4/0). Is this some kind of an inductive feedback? Can I damage the inverter? On another note. The problem customer I wrote about a while ago who wanted me to take the system back out is now happy with it. He finally dropped his mental block to learning how it works and now likes what he has learned! We are still dealing with a generator that is too small (an old 2000 watt 4 cylinder Kohler. It does run sweet and sips fuel lightly but I had to program the SW4024 to start it at 85% and run until the batteries are full to keep a good reserve for his huge loads. The generator often cannot run the house and the inverter has to assist. It has been quite a learning experience at carefully programming to be one step ahead in a bad situation. If the high autostart setpoints don't work, then he has agreed to sell the Kohler and buy a bigger generator. Let me know if anyone has had a humming Box. John Blittersdorf Central Vermont Solar and Wind - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From i2p at aol.com Sat Apr 22 16:28:25 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (i2p at aol.com) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 13:28:25 -0700 Subject: DC250 HUMMMMMM [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.639043131-951758591-956435305@topica.com> In a message dated 04/22/2000 1:12:47 PM Pacific Daylight Time, cvsolar at aol.com writes: << Let me know if anyone has had a humming Box. >> John, I think the steel box picks up the magnetic field from the inverter cables and vibrates. Does pushing on the box while its humming change it.? Is the hum louder when you are running heavy loads?. If both are true its probably magnetic coupling. Don Loweburg - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ________________________________________________________________________ Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register From ellison at gisco.net Sat Apr 22 17:14:03 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 14:14:03 -0700 Subject: DC250 [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.556635766-212058698-956438043@topica.com> John, Is the hum coming from the breaker, the box or both? Can you twist the inverter cables together? That seems to work better at reducing the inductance than taping them together. It could be a combination of distance and inductance causing it. Thanks, Bob Ellison -----Original Message----- From: cvsolar at aol.com [mailto:cvsolar at aol.com] Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2000 4:12 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: DC250 HUMMMMMM [RE-wrenches] Hi wrenches, I recently upgraded my own home system with a Trace DC250 Dicconnect Box to replace the old fuse from years ago and now have strange noises coming from the box. I get a variable pitch whine when the wind turbine is cranking (BWC1500) and otherwise have what appears to be a 60 cycle hum similar to a transformer when the inverter is loaded. The only thing different between this setup and all the others I have done for customers is that the 4/0 cables to the inverter are quite long at about 12' each (taped together to eliminate inductance) and also the DC250 is on a wall opposite the battery bank and I ran the plus wire out the lower left-hand knockout and thru the wall to the battery and the minus wire out the lower right knockout and thru the wall on that side to the batteries. This does cause considerable distance between the cables (4/0). Is this some kind of an inductive feedback? Can I damage the inverter? On another note. The problem customer I wrote about a while ago who wanted me to take the system back out is now happy with it. He finally dropped his mental block to learning how it works and now likes what he has learned! We are still dealing with a generator that is too small (an old 2000 watt 4 cylinder Kohler. It does run sweet and sips fuel lightly but I had to program the SW4024 to start it at 85% and run until the batteries are full to keep a good reserve for his huge loads. The generator often cannot run the house and the inverter has to assist. It has been quite a learning experience at carefully programming to be one step ahead in a bad situation. If the high autostart setpoints don't work, then he has agreed to sell the Kohler and buy a bigger generator. Let me know if anyone has had a humming Box. John Blittersdorf Central Vermont Solar and Wind - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From ellison at gisco.net Sat Apr 22 17:23:50 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 14:23:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.456420807-951758591-956438630@topica.com> Hello everyone, I have lost all my contacts e-mail and messages in a crash, and then the back up failed! So if anyone here was conversing with me I have lost all the records. Get in touch and we will continue the conversation, and hopefully I can get it all back together. If it wasn't for bad luck I would probably not have any at all.......... Thanks, Bob Ellison - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From ozsolar at ipa.net Sat Apr 22 18:50:26 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 15:50:26 -0700 Subject: Tiger Charging Rate [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.275151774-951758591-956443826@topica.com> Wrenches, I have on 500 Watt 12 volt tiger here in my shop set up on rolling cart to use as a demo. It helps me to show my customers all the components of a solar energy system. I have a Solar Boost 50 for a charge controller and I have found it to work great. I have noticed that is actually losing charging current at high states of charge as Steve Wiley mentioned. I still think it is a great product. By the way has anyone else noticed that the Solar Boost 50 instruction book shows wiring a negative and a positive to the same shunt! I bet that had some interesting results for the person who followed the picture exactly! I have used several of them since the came out and the book still shows it that way. Also on the cart I have a Trimetric 2020. The tiger is rated at to have a 15 amp charger but I have found it to be charging at over 27 amps and sometimes over 30 amps at lower voltages. Has any else noticed this on other inverters? It really is a 500 watt inverter. I've also noticed that is doesn't have the ability to surge much over 500 watts. If you intend to run loads with surges you better go with a UX series. The Tigers have a very poor ability to surge. Later, Travis Creswell Ozark Solar - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From ozsolar at ipa.net Sat Apr 22 18:54:57 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 15:54:57 -0700 Subject: DC250 HUMMMMMM [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1747584712-951758591-956444097@topica.com> John, I often hear AC breakers humming under large loads but I have not heard a hum from the DC250. I'm guessing it's inductance related to the distance from of the run. Travis Creswell Ozark Solar ---------- >From: cvsolar at aol.com >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Subject: DC250 HUMMMMMM [RE-wrenches] >Date: Sat, Apr 22, 2000, 3:12 PM > >Hi wrenches, > I recently upgraded my own home system with a Trace DC250 Dicconnect Box >to replace the old fuse from years ago and now have strange noises coming >from the box. I get a variable pitch whine when the wind turbine is cranking >(BWC1500) and otherwise have what appears to be a 60 cycle hum similar to a >transformer when the inverter is loaded. The only thing different between >this setup and all the others I have done for customers is that the 4/0 >cables to the inverter are quite long at about 12' each (taped together to >eliminate inductance) and also the DC250 is on a wall opposite the battery >bank and I ran the plus wire out the lower left-hand knockout and thru the >wall to the battery and the minus wire out the lower right knockout and thru >the wall on that side to the batteries. This does cause considerable >distance between the cables (4/0). Is this some kind of an inductive >feedback? Can I damage the inverter? > >On another note. The problem customer I wrote about a while ago who wanted >me to take the system back out is now happy with it. He finally dropped his >mental block to learning how it works and now likes what he has learned! We >are still dealing with a generator that is too small (an old 2000 watt 4 >cylinder Kohler. It does run sweet and sips fuel lightly but I had to >program the SW4024 to start it at 85% and run until the batteries are full to >keep a good reserve for his huge loads. The generator often cannot run the >house and the inverter has to assist. It has been quite a learning >experience at carefully programming to be one step ahead in a bad situation. >If the high autostart setpoints don't work, then he has agreed to sell the >Kohler and buy a bigger generator. > >Let me know if anyone has had a humming Box. > >John Blittersdorf >Central Vermont Solar and Wind >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: > >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > >To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >for info contact: >_________________________________________________________ >Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From toddcory at jps.net Sat Apr 22 19:55:06 2000 From: toddcory at jps.net (Todd Cory) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 16:55:06 -0700 Subject: DC250 HUMMMMMM [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1144450986-951758591-956447706@topica.com> Hi John, I always twist the battery to inverter cables as I understand this further reduces EMF and inductance problems. Try that to see if it helps your "hum". -- Todd Cory KE6SXS toddcory at jps.net Bald Mountain Solar P.O. Box 689 Mt. Shasta, Ca. 96067 (530) 926-1079 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ________________________________________________________________________ Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register From steve at backwoodssolar.com Sun Apr 23 22:32:43 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Backwoods Solar Electric Systems) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 19:32:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.879838560-951758591-956543563@topica.com> My response may be too late because others have partially answered: The Trace breaker box brought customer complaints of loud vibration originally, but none recentl;y. People are instructed now to run both + and - cables through the box, but you said you had done that. They are usually tied together within, so the negative goes right past the side of the breaker and that seems to eliminate the magnetic caused vibration noise. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ________________________________________________________________________ Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register From indeppower at aol.com Mon Apr 24 08:42:30 2000 From: indeppower at aol.com (indeppower at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 05:42:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1329753007-951758591-956580150@topica.com> In a message dated 4/23/2000 10:32:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, steve at backwoodssolar.com writes: << People are instructed now to run both + and - cables through the box, but you said you had done that. They are usually tied together within, so the negative goes right past the side of the breaker and that seems to eliminate the magnetic caused vibration noise. >> I was told years ago ( I think by ol "Lovable Larry" at Photron ) to always run the negative and positive cables through the same connector, or conduit, coming out of a steel box, or a magnetic field would be created between the cables in the steel. Dave Palumbo - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From cvsolar at aol.com Mon Apr 24 10:17:38 2000 From: cvsolar at aol.com (cvsolar at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 07:17:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches]hum Message-ID: <0.1300002502.811936003-951758591-956585858@topica.com> Thanks Everyone for the DC250 hum information. This question really shows how the wrenches network can ferret out lots of information to get the whole answer. I think Dave finally hit the nail on the head with the comment about running both conductors thru the same conduit or connector entering and exiting the box. That is the only difference in my setup at home versus the ones I have installed for customers. They have all entered and exited out of the same hole. My system has the cables from the batteries coming in two separate knockouts on opposite sides of the box and the cables to the inverter exit out of two 1" romex connectors on top about an inch or so apart. Guess I have to get used to the Hum or do a little rework. John Blittersdorf Central Vermont Solar and Wind - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Mon Apr 24 13:28:42 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (Sharkey) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 10:28:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches]hum Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1833883701-212058698-956597322@topica.com> John; A lesson in "common mode" as we call it in broadcast engineering. It could be that the enclosure is acting like a shorted winding in a transformer. Great amounts of current (but little voltage) can be induced in a metal box that contains only one conductor in a circuit. The fact that the conductor enters one end and exits the opposite compounds the problem by a factor of two. Seems to me that I remember reading something in the NEC about individual conductors in an enclosure, and it wasn't good. Practical application of this could result in currents in excess of what the enclosure can withstand, and it was purported that even small conductors could induce significant heat in the metal of the box! I think we're getting close to the source of your hum. Please let us know if you decide to re-wire, and if that solves the problem. This is valuable information for all installers! -S - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ________________________________________________________________________ Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register From steve at backwoodssolar.com Mon Apr 24 18:53:18 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Backwoods Solar Electric Systems) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 15:53:18 -0700 Subject: Tiger Charging Rate [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.296716093-212058698-956616798@topica.com> I think, if you are referring to the SolarBoost 50 diagram on their page 10, that it is a problem of drawing style rather than + and - shorted. A lead from the negative shunt goes into a semi circle, the other half of the circle is a lead to battery + Between the halves are the words "to all loads" I believe they meant those two wires to be separate and the printed words to represent the loads, rather than a direct connection between the two wire halves. The weakness there is that the wires point toward eachother with only the words between, rather than the + and - wires departing parallel toward the words "to all loads". Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems ----- Original Message ----- From: Travis Creswell To: Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2000 3:50 PM Subject: Tiger Charging Rate [RE-wrenches] I have a Solar Boost 50 for a charge controller and I > have found it to work great. I have noticed that is actually losing > charging current at high states of charge as Steve Wiley mentioned. I still > think it is a great product. By the way has anyone else noticed that the > Solar Boost 50 instruction book shows wiring a negative and a positive to > the same shunt! I bet that had some interesting results for the person who > followed the picture exactly! I have used several of them since the came > out and the book still shows it that way - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From ozsolar at ipa.net Mon Apr 24 19:10:38 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 16:10:38 -0700 Subject: Tiger Charging Rate [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1345408110-212058698-956617838@topica.com> You are right. Now that I looked at it again I can see that. I was walking a customer through hooking it up when he pointed that out to me. Thanks Travis Creswell ---------- >From: Backwoods Solar Electric Systems >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Subject: Re: Tiger Charging Rate [RE-wrenches] >Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2000, 5:53 PM > >I think, if you are referring to the SolarBoost 50 diagram on their page 10, >that it is a problem of drawing style rather than + and - shorted. A lead >from the negative shunt goes into a semi circle, the other half of the >circle is a lead to battery + Between the halves are the words "to all >loads" I believe they meant those two wires to be separate and the printed >words to represent the loads, rather than a direct connection between the >two wire halves. The weakness there is that the wires point toward >eachother with only the words between, rather than the + and - wires >departing parallel toward the words "to all loads". > >Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com >Backwoods Solar Electric Systems > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Travis Creswell >To: >Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2000 3:50 PM >Subject: Tiger Charging Rate [RE-wrenches] > > > I have a Solar Boost 50 for a charge controller and I >> have found it to work great. I have noticed that is actually losing >> charging current at high states of charge as Steve Wiley mentioned. I >still >> think it is a great product. By the way has anyone else noticed that the >> Solar Boost 50 instruction book shows wiring a negative and a positive to >> the same shunt! I bet that had some interesting results for the person >who >> followed the picture exactly! I have used several of them since the >came >> out and the book still shows it that way > >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: > >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > >To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >for info contact: >_________________________________________________________ >Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ________________________________________________________________________ Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register From element.eng at quista.net Tue Apr 25 09:21:26 2000 From: element.eng at quista.net (Charlie Robb) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 06:21:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches]hum Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1766076031-212058698-956668886@topica.com> Hello Wrenches, When cabling a.c. single conductors through glands in steel plate, it is normal practice to cut slots (with a hacksaw) in the plate between the holes. This breaks the magnetic path and prevents the current flow. Sharkey is correct, a lot of heat (and vibration) can be generated in the steel plate by the induced current - I have found this in incorrect installations and cured it by unscrewing the glands and cutting slots from hole to hole. You can usually get away without removing the cables if you use a small enough hacksaw blade. In John's d.c. case perhaps he can improve matters by cutting a slot between the two glands on the top? This will effectively make one (magnetic) hole for the two conductors. Keep it up gang; anyone know where I can get a 10kW 240V d.c. to 230V 50Hz a.c. stand-alone inverter - for a 1935 vintage hydro turbine with original d.c. generator? Charlie Robb Element Engineering 25 Sutherland Avenue Riverside Stirling FK8 1LU UK Tel/Fax: 01786 472259 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: _________________________________________________________ Enlighten your in-box. http://www.topica.com/t/15 From ecoelec at rof.net Tue Apr 25 12:42:11 2000 From: ecoelec at rof.net (Pat Kiernan) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 09:42:11 -0700 Subject: hum [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1711031601-212058698-956680931@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 1358 bytes Desc: not available URL: From carlson at pe.net Wed Apr 26 21:08:35 2000 From: carlson at pe.net (Scott Carlson) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 18:08:35 -0700 Subject: wrenches self promotion [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1164970561-951758591-956797715@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 1409 bytes Desc: not available URL: From toddcory at jps.net Wed Apr 26 21:55:37 2000 From: toddcory at jps.net (Todd Cory) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 18:55:37 -0700 Subject: wrenches self promotion [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.464003981-212058698-956800537@topica.com> Hi Scott and others... Advertising would not benefit me at all as the area I serve is so small, that if anyone wants what I do and they don't know me, all they have to do is ask around, but generally most folks know me and what I do. Maybe this would help others though? TC Scott Carlson wrote: > > I have had an idea! This may not be the appropriate place to make > this suggestion. But------------ What do the rest of you wrenchers > think about doing a combined advertisement in Home Power listing us on > one page, geographically listing our locations and the fact that we > install, service and sell, because we are wrenchers. This would give > readers of Home Power a convenient list (possibly found every issue in > a specific area of the magazine) for us! Maybe qualifying those > listed to ensure quality installers and building a reputation for this > list that may be respected by the industry. I would like to arrange > all of this, if there is an interest! Scott CarlsonCarlson Solar - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cvsolar at aol.com Thu Apr 27 11:31:12 2000 From: cvsolar at aol.com (cvsolar at aol.com) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 08:31:12 -0700 Subject: Sewer Pump 1/2HP 120vac / DR2424 [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.852086900-951758591-956849472@topica.com> Has anyone had experience using a DR2424 to run a 1/2 hp 120vac sewer pump. All my pump experience is either DC pumps or ac pumps using the SW4024 or 4048. I have only installed one DR2424 so far and it is only running a freezer and furnace. This pump will be pumping up to a mound system. The inverter will be dedicated to this one purpose so their are no other load issues. John Blittersdorf Central Vermont Solar and Wind - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ________________________________________________________________________ Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register From cvsolar at aol.com Thu Apr 27 11:33:04 2000 From: cvsolar at aol.com (cvsolar at aol.com) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 08:33:04 -0700 Subject: wrenches self promotion [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.869778524-212058698-956849584@topica.com> Scott, Sounds like an interesting idea. It would be a lot quicker and a better list than trying to download the RE Dealer list from HomePower. And your idea of qualifying the participants is good. John Blittersdorf Central Vermont Solar and Wind - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From econnect at snowcrest.net Thu Apr 27 11:47:16 2000 From: econnect at snowcrest.net (Bob-O Schultze) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 08:47:16 -0700 Subject: wrenches self promotion [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.464003981-212058698-956800537@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.464003981-212058698-956800537@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.101605302-951758591-956850436@topica.com> Scott, It's an interesting concept, but I say no for two good reasons. 1) While I hold an electrical contractor's license, not everybody does. There are laws in many states about unlicensed contractors advertising in any form. California, at least, can be pretty strict about it. The fact is, there are some good wrenches (and a few bad ones) who, for one reason or another, haven't taken that step. Most of us started out on the QT sometime, ya know? 2) We'd all get spammed and hustled by quick buck distributors, low ball shoppers, wackos, and other assorted nutcases who want your time and expertise, then go shop elsewhere. You don't advertise in HP, so maybe you aren't aware of this. Best, Bob-O >Hi Scott and others... > >Advertising would not benefit me at all as the area I serve is so small, >that if anyone wants what I do and they don't know me, all they have to >do is ask around, but generally most folks know me and what I do. Maybe >this would help others though? > >TC > >Scott Carlson wrote: > > > > > I have had an idea! This may not be the appropriate place to make > > this suggestion. But------------ What do the rest of you wrenchers > > think about doing a combined advertisement in Home Power listing us on > > one page, geographically listing our locations and the fact that we > > install, service and sell, because we are wrenchers. This would give > > readers of Home Power a convenient list (possibly found every issue in > > a specific area of the magazine) for us! Maybe qualifying those > > listed to ensure quality installers and building a reputation for this > > list that may be respected by the industry. I would like to arrange > all of this, if there is an interest! Scott CarlsonCarlson Solar Bob-O Schultze, Electron Connection PO Box 203, Hornbrook, CA 96044 800.945.7587 fax 530-475-3401 www.electronconnection.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cpae1 at aol.com Thu Apr 27 12:15:15 2000 From: cpae1 at aol.com (cpae1 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 09:15:15 -0700 Subject: Sewer Pump 1/2HP 120vac / DR2424 [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1338269669-212058698-956852115@topica.com> John, I have run a 1/2 hp 115 volt ac water transfer pump with a DR-2412 with no problems for the 4 years. Frank Fowler, Crystal Pines Alternative Energy - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From michael.welch at homepower.com Thu Apr 27 12:19:47 2000 From: michael.welch at homepower.com (Michael Welch) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 09:19:47 -0700 Subject: wrenches self promotion [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.464003981-212058698-956800537@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1527189950-951758591-956852387@topica.com> At 06:55 PM 04/26/2000 -0700, you wrote: > I have had an idea! This may not be the appropriate place to make > this suggestion. But------------ What do the rest of you wrenchers > think about doing a combined advertisement in Home Power listing us on > one page, geographically listing our locations and the fact that we > install, service and sell, because we are wrenchers. This would give > readers of Home Power a convenient list (possibly found every issue in > a specific area of the magazine) for us! Maybe qualifying those > listed to ensure quality installers and building a reputation for this > list that may be respected by the industry. I would like to arrange > all of this, if there is an interest! Scott CarlsonCarlson Solar I would rather see you all join IPP and help give it the strength it needs to help do your bidding, which could include joint advertising and maybe even a more active referrall service. Advertising and marketing was not the original intention of this list, but what you all do with a communications forum like this is up to you (within reason, of course). Michael Welch ------------------------ "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." Edward Abbey Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com Associate Editor, Home Power magazine Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From i2p at aol.com Thu Apr 27 12:25:35 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (i2p at aol.com) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 09:25:35 -0700 Subject: Sewer Pump 1/2HP 120vac / DR2424 [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1686320749-212058698-956852735@topica.com> In a message dated 04/27/2000 8:40:09 AM Pacific Daylight Time, cvsolar at aol.com writes: << Has anyone had experience using a DR2424 to run a 1/2 hp 120vac sewer pump. All my pump experience is either DC pumps or ac pumps using the SW4024 or 4048. I have only installed one DR2424 so far and it is only running a freezer and furnace. This pump will be pumping up to a mound system. The inverter will be dedicated to this one purpose so their are no other load issues. >> Hi John, A DR 2424 would run it, but the question in my mind is what is the duty cycle. A few minutes a day no problem. For long runs any ac induction motor is going to be more effiecient on sinewave and run cooler. Don Loweburg - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Thu Apr 27 12:37:24 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (Sharkey) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 09:37:24 -0700 Subject: wrenches self promotion [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1527189950-951758591-956852387@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.464003981-212058698-956800537@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1022662347-951758591-956853444@topica.com> >Advertising and marketing was not the original intention of this list, but what you all >do with a communications forum like this is up to you (within reason, of course). Anybody want to buy a Mr. Sharkey T-shirt or mouse pad??? (-; - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ________________________________________________________________________ Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register From ellison at gisco.net Thu Apr 27 12:40:35 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 09:40:35 -0700 Subject: Sewer Pump 1/2HP 120vac / DR2424 [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.852086900-951758591-956849472@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1348384582-212058698-956853635@topica.com> John, The 2424 should run it with no problems, I have run several 1/2 HP water pumps on 2500 Heart Interface inverters. One warning is it is probably about as inefficient a motor as they come..... This system only has one pump? Others I have installed have 2. Gotta run, Bob Ellison -----Original Message----- From: cvsolar at aol.com [mailto:cvsolar at aol.com] Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2000 11:31 AM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Sewer Pump 1/2HP 120vac / DR2424 [RE-wrenches] Has anyone had experience using a DR2424 to run a 1/2 hp 120vac sewer pump. All my pump experience is either DC pumps or ac pumps using the SW4024 or 4048. I have only installed one DR2424 so far and it is only running a freezer and furnace. This pump will be pumping up to a mound system. The inverter will be dedicated to this one purpose so their are no other load issues. John Blittersdorf Central Vermont Solar and Wind - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ________________________________________________________________________ Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ________________________________________________________________________ Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register From windy at dankoffsolar.com Thu Apr 27 13:00:10 2000 From: windy at dankoffsolar.com (Windy Dankoff) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 10:00:10 -0700 Subject: Sewer Pump 1/2HP 120vac / DR2424 [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.852086900-951758591-956849472@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.852086900-951758591-956849472@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1677527714-212058698-956854810@topica.com> >Has anyone had experience using a DR2424 to run a 1/2 hp 120vac sewer pump. >All my pump experience is either DC pumps or ac pumps using the SW4024 or >4048. I have only installed one DR2424 so far and it is only running a >freezer and furnace. This pump will be pumping up to a mound system. The >inverter will be dedicated to this one purpose so their are no other load >issues. > >John Blittersdorf >Central Vermont Solar and Wind John, The DR2424 should have no problem running 1/2 HP pump. At the instant of startup, it will use no about 1/2 to 3/4 of the inverter's surge capacity which will cause a quick dip in the voltage, but by our gathered experience, it should work fine unless other big loads are on, for example a conventional washing machine. The starting surge voltage dip may cause a computer in the home to crash, especially if the battery voltage is low. These things are not fully predictable, but I would bet my dinner that the pump would start and run fine however with a bit more power draw than from sine wave power. An alternative may be to use a 24V marine bilge pump if you need a submersible, or one of our Solar Centrifugal pumps if you don't need submersion. However, if running is short duration then energy use is not a big issue and you may find it most cost-effective to go AC. -- =========================== From the solar powered office of Windy Dankoff, President =========================== Dankoff Solar Products, Inc. Wholesale distributor of solar-electric equipment Manufacturer & distributor of solar water pumps 2810 Industrial Rd. Santa Fe, NM 87505 (505) 473-3800 FAX 473-3830 E-mail: info at dankoffsolar.com SEE OUR INFORMATIVE WEB SITE AT: http://www.dankoffsolar.com =========================== To contact Windy Dankoff directly: Most days I am at my home office e-mail: windy at dankoffsolar.com tel/fax: (505) 466-0059 ~ amateur radio KE5HV ~ =========================== - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ________________________________________________________________________ Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register From RE-wrenches at topica.com Thu Apr 27 14:52:08 2000 From: RE-wrenches at topica.com (RE-wrenches at topica.com) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 11:52:08 -0700 Subject: wrenches self promotion [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1527189950-951758591-956852387@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.464003981-212058698-956800537@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.175919932-951758591-956861528@topica.com> I'm not sure that the joint advertising idea would bring many benefits to us since our business is located in Central America (Soluciones Energeticas, Honduras). However, as a small business, we cannot always obtain competitive prices on some of the items we sell andcould certainly benefit from the buying power that could be achieved by forming a cooperative purchasing group. Is there any interest in that? Ned van Steenwyk Soluciones Energeticas Tegucigalpa, Honduras - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ________________________________________________________________________ Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register From i2p at aol.com Thu Apr 27 16:19:09 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (i2p at aol.com) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 13:19:09 -0700 Subject: wrenches self promotion [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1699386237-212058698-956866749@topica.com> In a message dated 04/27/2000 9:29:38 AM Pacific Daylight Time, michael.welch at homepower.com writes: << I would rather see you all join IPP and help give it the strength it needs to help do your bidding, which could include joint advertising and maybe even a more active referrall service. >> Thanks Michael, I think thats something we can talk about. Maybe also the upgraded IPP web page can serve in this function. Many of the wrenches are supporters and members of IPP so this seems like a natural. What do other IPPers think? Don - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ezra at lasqueti.net Thu Apr 27 17:18:16 2000 From: ezra at lasqueti.net (ezra at lasqueti.net) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 14:18:16 -0700 Subject: Sewer Pump 1/2HP 120vac / DR2424 [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.852086900-951758591-956849472@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.179500836-951758591-956870296@topica.com> I don't have personal experience with this particular application, but I do have experience running 1/3 hp pressure pump with Trace U series inverters (2624 and 2012). Both of these inverters would start the pump with no pressure in the tank just fine, as soon as there was pressure the inverter would bog down. I installed a capacitor on the start winding and all worked fine. Given the pump is likely pumping against no pressure it should likely start-running would not be an issue if you can get started. If the pump won't start, you might consider the capacitor trick as well. Ezra Auerbach cvsolar at aol.com wrote: > Has anyone had experience using a DR2424 to run a 1/2 hp 120vac sewer pump. > All my pump experience is either DC pumps or ac pumps using the SW4024 or > 4048. I have only installed one DR2424 so far and it is only running a > freezer and furnace. This pump will be pumping up to a mound system. The > inverter will be dedicated to this one purpose so their are no other load > issues. > > John Blittersdorf > Central Vermont Solar and Wind > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ________________________________________________________________________ > Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ________________________________________________________________________ Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register From solar at eagle-access.net Thu Apr 27 19:07:23 2000 From: solar at eagle-access.net (Drake Chamberlin - Electrical Energy) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 16:07:23 -0700 Subject: RE Lab: Module Wiring [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.689863739-951758591-956876843@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/mixed Size: 9349 bytes Desc: not available URL: From steve at backwoodssolar.com Thu Apr 27 20:52:13 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Backwoods Solar Electric Systems) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 17:52:13 -0700 Subject: Sewer Pump 1/2HP 120vac / DR2424 [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.852086900-951758591-956849472@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1677527714-212058698-956854810@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.783791048-951758591-956883133@topica.com> Hey Windy, I had a fellow with a 240 AC sewage pump lifting some 35 feet to an uphill mound. That is a little worse to start given the transformer too. I wanted to suggest a marine macerator pump or whatever but was unsure of their lift capability. So can you tell me the range available for lift, and where to get one in 24 volt version? Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems ----- Original Message ----- From: Windy Dankoff To: Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2000 10:00 AM Subject: Re: Sewer Pump 1/2HP 120vac / DR2424 [RE-wrenches] > >Has anyone had experience using a DR2424 to run a 1/2 hp 120vac sewer pump. > >All my pump experience is either DC pumps or ac pumps using the SW4024 or > >4048. I have only installed one DR2424 so far and it is only running a > >freezer and furnace. This pump will be pumping up to a mound system. The > >inverter will be dedicated to this one purpose so their are no other load > >issues. > > > >John Blittersdorf > >Central Vermont Solar and Wind > > > John, > > The DR2424 should have no problem running 1/2 HP pump. At the instant > of startup, it will use no about 1/2 to 3/4 of the inverter's surge > capacity which will cause a quick dip in the voltage, but by our > gathered experience, it should work fine unless other big loads are > on, for example a conventional washing machine. The starting surge > voltage dip may cause a computer in the home to crash, especially if > the battery voltage is low. These things are not fully predictable, > but I would bet my dinner that the pump would start and run fine > however with a bit more power draw than from sine wave power. > > An alternative may be to use a 24V marine bilge pump if you need a > submersible, or one of our Solar Centrifugal pumps if you don't need > submersion. However, if running is short duration then energy use is > not a big issue and you may find it most cost-effective to go AC. > -- > > =========================== > > From the solar powered office of > Windy Dankoff, President > > =========================== > > Dankoff Solar Products, Inc. > > Wholesale distributor of solar-electric equipment > Manufacturer & distributor of solar water pumps > > 2810 Industrial Rd. > Santa Fe, NM 87505 > > (505) 473-3800 > FAX 473-3830 > E-mail: info at dankoffsolar.com > > SEE OUR INFORMATIVE WEB SITE AT: > > http://www.dankoffsolar.com > > =========================== > > To contact Windy Dankoff directly: > Most days I am at my home office > e-mail: windy at dankoffsolar.com > tel/fax: (505) 466-0059 > ~ amateur radio KE5HV ~ > > =========================== > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ________________________________________________________________________ > Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ________________________________________________________________________ Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register From falk at investusa.net Thu Apr 27 20:53:01 2000 From: falk at investusa.net (Kenneth C. Falk, CCIM) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 17:53:01 -0700 Subject: SW-4048/T240/230V 2-wire 175' well pump [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1996060888-212058698-956883181@topica.com> The system is an SW4048/8-LC-16HC batteries/T-240 stepup xmfr/240 VAC, 1/2 hp well pump at 175 ft. Well perodically shuts down with zero pressure at the pressure switch. The problem is the well keeps shutting down (0 pressure at the pressure switch)--2-3 times per week. Upon checking the buried pressure tank, pressure in the bladder was zero. Brought pressure up to 30# (with system drained), and all worked fine. The next day, pressure was back to zero, but bladder retained 30# of pressure (so I believe that bladder is not breached, although I didn't dig it up again. One interesting departure: Before, the water trickled out of the tap until there was nothing left. The last time, it stopped abruptly, as though, instantly, there was no water. This makes sense if you consider that there was no water left in the pressure tank and the bladder was full of air) The capacitor fix rang a bell, however this is a different situation. Although connected, the system is not running off the inverter--it's running off Mains, without power interruption. Even if Mains power was interrupted, the inverter/batteries should instantly take over. The system runs through the T240 in all cases, to drive the well pump, and the SW4048 is always in the float mode, with AC Mains applied. The solar panels are not up yet, so the system is complete and running off Mains. I cleaned pressure switch contacts. The last two, prior water cut-offs were after a big rain, so I don't think it's a matter of the well running dry. Each time I restart the pressure switch, the pressure tank fills up with plenty of water (14 gallon draw-down, buried pressure tank, located at the well). Does anyone have any ideas of what the problem is? Ken AB4JB Ken C. Falk, CCIM* E-mail: falk at investusa.net Back-up E-mail: kenfalk at hotmail.com Kenneth C. Falk Real Estate Broker, Inc. Commercial, Investment & Industrial Real Estate 1282 Poplar Hill Road Lexington, Virginia 24450-7332 USA (540) 464-3405 Fax: (540) 464-4200 Web site: http://www.investusa.net/ (*Certified Commercial Investment Member) - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ________________________________________________________________________ Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register From ozsolar at ipa.net Thu Apr 27 21:07:00 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 18:07:00 -0700 Subject: RE Lab: Module Wiring [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1978078959-951758591-956884020@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/mixed Size: 15011 bytes Desc: not available URL: From windy at dankoffsolar.com Fri Apr 28 09:54:11 2000 From: windy at dankoffsolar.com (Windy Dankoff) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 06:54:11 -0700 Subject: Sewer Pump 1/2HP 120vac / DR2424 [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.179500836-951758591-956870296@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.852086900-951758591-956849472@topica.com> <0.1300002502.179500836-951758591-956870296@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.947877669-212058698-956930051@topica.com> Consider is the speed and type of motor. 1725 rpm motor will start and come up to speed faster than a 3450 rpm motor. Capacitor start motor will start easier and be more forgiving and cause less phase-related problems than one without a cpacitor. Worst offender, hardest and slowest to start is shaded pole motor, as found on cheap grinders, some fans, and some very small pumps. Windy - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From windy at dankoffsolar.com Fri Apr 28 10:21:00 2000 From: windy at dankoffsolar.com (Windy Dankoff) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 07:21:00 -0700 Subject: Sewer Pump 1/2HP 120vac / DR2424 [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.64960788-951758591-956878265@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.64960788-951758591-956878265@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1606019822-951758591-956931660@topica.com> > >>Has anyone had experience using a DR2424 to run a 1/2 hp 120vac sewer pump. >>All my pump experience is either DC pumps or ac pumps using the SW4024 or >>4048. I have only installed one DR2424 so far and it is only running a >>freezer and furnace. This pump will be pumping up to a mound system. The >>inverter will be dedicated to this one purpose so their are no other load >>issues. >> >>John Blittersdorf > >Central Vermont Solar and Wind John, If the inverter is dedicated to only that task, it may be more cost-effective to use a marine bilge pump. It's made for a very similar task. The pump would probably last for years, in such short-term use, but there may be an occasional premature failure. If reliability is vital, consider installing two pumps so that when one goes out, the other still runs. I'm not saying DC is definitely better in this case, but it would be much cheaper and (for what it's worth) much more energy-efficient. Windy =============== >Hey Windy, I had a fellow with a 240 AC sewage pump lifting some 35 feet to >an uphill mound. That is a little worse to start given the transformer too. >I wanted to suggest a marine macerator pump or whatever but was unsure of >their lift capability. So can you tell me the range available for lift, and >where to get one in 24 volt version? > >Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems Marine DC bilge and macerator pumps are not designed for such high lifts (that would be a big boat!). I've only seen about 15 ft. max for bilge pumps. Oh yes ... the Sunmotor Floating Submersible pump would be a very long-lasting DC alternative to the cheap bilge pump. Also, they go to greater than 35 ft. lift. Pricey, but long-lasting and efficient (magnetically coupled). It can be submerged without it's float. Windy - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Fri Apr 28 11:16:14 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 08:16:14 -0700 Subject: RE Lab: Module Wiring [RE-wrenches] 2 Message-ID: <0.1300002502.258712969-951758591-956934974@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/mixed Size: 11435 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Fri Apr 28 11:57:20 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (Sharkey) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 08:57:20 -0700 Subject: Sewer Pump 1/2HP 120vac / DR2424 [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.783791048-951758591-956883133@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.852086900-951758591-956849472@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1677527714-212058698-956854810@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1037300282-951758591-956937440@topica.com> Maybe I'm missing something here, but I'm pretty sure that a sewer pump will also be a macerator, which grinds up any semi-solids in the septic tank while pumping. Unless a bilge pump has this feature, it will clog and stop working in short order, as would any other well-type of pump. I'd say that sticking with the purpose-built pump would be a good idea, and that adapting the power supply system makes more sense, given the distastefulness of the results of pump failure in this case. -S - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solar at eagle-access.net Fri Apr 28 12:01:26 2000 From: solar at eagle-access.net (Drake Chamberlin - Electrical Energy) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 09:01:26 -0700 Subject: RE Lab: Module Wiring [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1978078959-951758591-956884020@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.824521672-212058698-956937686@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/mixed Size: 22325 bytes Desc: not available URL: From michael.welch at homepower.com Fri Apr 28 12:29:33 2000 From: michael.welch at homepower.com (Michael Welch) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 09:29:33 -0700 Subject: IPP [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.968461330-951758591-956886016@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1691225563-951758591-956939373@topica.com> Try www.homepower.com/ipp which is their temporary and somewhat stale site. Home Power has been underwriting the IPP site, but soon they will be at www.i2p.org Don Loweburg is the chief cook and bottle washer at IPP, I am sure he will be responding. At 06:40 PM 04/27/2000 -0700, you wrote: >Here is where I show how ignorant I am, but what is IPP? Sounds interesting >to me. How about a web site address so I educate myself? > >Thanks >Travis Creswell >Ozark Solar Michael Welch ------------------------ "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." Edward Abbey Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com Associate Editor, Home Power magazine Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunwise at win.bright.net Fri Apr 28 12:49:47 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (sunwise at win.bright.net) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 09:49:47 -0700 Subject: Sewer Pump 1/2HP 120vac / DR2424 [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.852086900-951758591-956849472@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1677527714-212058698-956854810@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1037300282-951758591-956937440@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.275673653-951758591-956940587@topica.com> In response to Sharkey and others on the septic tank pump, I think there are two types of systems. One system uses and effulent pump, usually in a two tank system with a baffle in the first tank keeping most of the solid matter in the first tank (pump in second tank). Some systems use a grinder pump which does what it sounds like and is usually a much heavier load and 240vac. I think it would be a shame to have to dedicate a large inverter to this one pump. The DC pump Windy speaks of makes good sense to me and if they are not too expensive, why not give it a try. Most of these systems are designed to "dose" the mound once or twice a day and is adjusted by the position of the switch in the tank. Don't know if the DC pump is heavey/continuous duty and maybe more frequent pumping (setting the switch lower) may be a good idea. A second pump could be set "higher". All such tanks should have a float switch alarm, warning the residents if the tank gets really full do to a pump problem. I did one system where-in I wired the effluent pump through the normally closed contacts on a 30 amp heavy duty relay with the coil pulled in by the 120vac pressure switch supplying voltage to the primary side of the 120/240 transformer powering the homes 240 vac 3/4 HP deep-well pump. Both pumps running at the same time, along with washing machine/furnace/hot water power vent/regular home loads, may have been too much for the SW4024. This arrangement made sense, as the effulent pump was a really big load, but doesn't need to run all the time. The float is set at about 1/2 full tank (1,000 gal) and the homes pressure tank is large enough to allow occasional well pump run time. Again, the alarm on the system will sound if the tank ever gets over 3/4 full, which has never happened in one year of operation. I have a tendency to not over-size system components -- throw big inverters and such at the problem and it will go away.... Whatever - Kurt Nelson - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunwise at win.bright.net Fri Apr 28 13:08:05 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (sunwise at win.bright.net) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 10:08:05 -0700 Subject: 24VDC PV's [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1908005276-212058698-956941685@topica.com> Greetings Wrenchers' I've been using Siemens SP-75's for so long now I'm not sure if anyone else is out there making PV's. I seem to remember someone was making a panel that was field selectable to 12 or 24 VDC I'd guess it has twice as many cells in one panel that you can series or series/par em in the j-box like the Solarex 6/12 configuration. I have a cilent who wants a smaller 24VDC panel and I'd rather not spec two panels, especially at the dollars per watt of smaller panels. Any thoughts? Thanks - Kurt Nelson - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From falk at investusa.net Fri Apr 28 13:37:01 2000 From: falk at investusa.net (Kenneth C. Falk, CCIM) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 10:37:01 -0700 Subject: 24VDC PV's [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1908005276-212058698-956941685@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.644437676-212058698-956943421@topica.com> Kurt, Matrix (Photowatt), in Albuquerque, makes 12/24 VDC field selectable panels. Ken Falk ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Wrenches" Sent: Friday, April 28, 2000 1:08 PM Subject: 24VDC PV's [RE-wrenches] > Greetings Wrenchers' > > I've been using Siemens SP-75's for so long now I'm not sure if anyone > else is out there making PV's. I seem to remember someone was making a > panel that was field selectable to 12 or 24 VDC I'd guess it has twice > as many cells in one panel that you can series or series/par em in the > j-box like the Solarex 6/12 configuration. I have a cilent who wants a > smaller 24VDC panel and I'd rather not spec two panels, especially at > the dollars per watt of smaller panels. Any thoughts? > Thanks - Kurt Nelson > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From i2p at aol.com Fri Apr 28 14:41:37 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (i2p at aol.com) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 11:41:37 -0700 Subject: IPP [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.611326718-212058698-956947297@topica.com> In a message dated 04/28/2000 9:30:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time, michael.welch at homepower.com writes: << Here is where I show how ignorant I am, but what is IPP? Sounds interesting >to me. How about a web site address so I educate myself? > >Thanks >Travis Creswell >Ozark Solar >> Hello Travis, Check out the site Michael gave. He is currently spicing it up. So we can expect great things. The basic membership is $50/year which supports the web site and my travel expenses to go to policy meetings in California and elsewhere at which I represent IPP. You should be able to get a feel for position from the information on the site. If you want more check out current and old IPP columns in Home Power, or I can email some to you. Best, Don Loweburg PS Several wrenches on this list are active IPP members. - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Fri Apr 28 17:25:26 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 14:25:26 -0700 Subject: RE Lab: Module Wiring [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.975339169-951758591-956957126@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/mixed Size: 21513 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cvsolar at aol.com Fri Apr 28 21:20:56 2000 From: cvsolar at aol.com (cvsolar at aol.com) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 18:20:56 -0700 Subject: wrenches self promotion [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1506283401-951758591-956971256@topica.com> Travis, I think you are on to something with the referrals. I get requests from all over the country and (world) too. They find my website somehow. Some don't give a location but at least it would be worth my while to find out where they are if I can help a fellow wrencher with a lead. I lose interest in responding to them when they are distant but I should respond to all requests anyway. It would be a lot easier to send them to one of you than for me to send them a lot of information. I also now agree that the full page ad is probably not the best approach. John Blittersdorf Central Vermont Solar and Wind - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From falk at investusa.net Fri Apr 28 21:51:22 2000 From: falk at investusa.net (Kenneth C. Falk, CCIM) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 18:51:22 -0700 Subject: wrenches self promotion [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1506283401-951758591-956971256@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1536432331-212058698-956973082@topica.com> Referral Fees: I would like to suggest that with the time, effort and funds that we put into advertising and developing our Web sites--it would be nice to have a benefit other than "good will" when we hand our prospect to someone else (that came to us as a result of our effort). As a real estate broker, it is a standard business practice that if someone comes to me for help, and I can see that the prospect is better served by another, I contact the other potential service provider and set up a referral fee (within my profession). In this way, I only benefit if the other service provider was able to benefit the prospect and himself/herself. As for me, I enjoy helping others at no charge (my philosophy is to help others and to be happy)--however, as in alternative energy, in real estate, we are experts providing a service. If another "expert" throws business my way, I am thankful, and insist on offering a referral fee for the consideration. So, I say, seek renumeration for the long, hard and thankless hours that you have toiled, and by all means, refer prospects to others, that they may be better (or more promptly) served. Seek not to try to do everything thyself. Delegate your responsiblities that ye may become more proficient in what ye do. Sermon over. Ken Falk ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, April 28, 2000 9:20 PM Subject: Re: wrenches self promotion [RE-wrenches] > Travis, > I think you are on to something with the referrals. I get requests from > all over the country and (world) too. They find my website somehow. Some > don't give a location but at least it would be worth my while to find out > where they are if I can help a fellow wrencher with a lead. I lose interest > in responding to them when they are distant but I should respond to all > requests anyway. It would be a lot easier to send them to one of you than > for me to send them a lot of information. I also now agree that the full > page ad is probably not the best approach. > > John Blittersdorf > Central Vermont Solar and Wind > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From jackwest at alaska.net Sat Apr 29 00:25:31 2000 From: jackwest at alaska.net (Jack D West) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 21:25:31 -0700 Subject: 24VDC PV's [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1908005276-212058698-956941685@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1410087437-212058698-956982331@topica.com> Kurt, I recently needed a 24 volt panel for trickle charge and used a SP75 with a voltage converter from Solar Converters to change from 12 nominal to 24 nominal. The "DC Autotransformer/Equalizer" doubles the input voltage and seems to be working well. This provides 75 watts at 24VDC without having to buy two smaller panels. Jack West - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Mon May 1 09:08:30 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell) Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 06:08:30 -0700 Subject: wrenches self promotion [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.554226810-212058698-957186510@topica.com> Wrenches, I think Ken is on to something. I have heard many Wrenches make mention that they would like to work closer to home. I sure would. Maybe should we should start by filling out or updating our wrench profiles and make mention where our preferred work area would be. I would be willing to pay a referral fee to a fellow wrench who sent a lead my way that turned into business. I also would be more than willing to refer a lead to Wrench who could better serve someone than me. Travis Creswell Ozark Solar ---------- >From: "Kenneth C. Falk, CCIM" >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Subject: Re: wrenches self promotion [RE-wrenches] >Date: Fri, Apr 28, 2000, 8:51 PM > >Referral Fees: > >I would like to suggest that with the time, effort and funds that we put >into advertising and developing our Web sites--it would be nice to have a >benefit other than "good will" when we hand our prospect to someone else >(that came to us as a result of our effort). > >As a real estate broker, it is a standard business practice that if someone >comes to me for help, and I can see that the prospect is better served by >another, I contact the other potential service provider and set up a >referral fee (within my profession). In this way, I only benefit if the >other service provider was able to benefit the prospect and himself/herself. >As for me, I enjoy helping others at no charge (my philosophy is to help >others and to be happy)--however, as in alternative energy, in real estate, >we are experts providing a service. If another "expert" throws business my >way, I am thankful, and insist on offering a referral fee for the >consideration. So, I say, seek renumeration for the long, hard and >thankless hours that you have toiled, and by all means, refer prospects to >others, that they may be better (or more promptly) served. Seek not to try >to do everything thyself. Delegate your responsiblities that ye may become >more proficient in what ye do. Sermon over. > >Ken Falk - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Mon May 1 09:28:47 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell) Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 06:28:47 -0700 Subject: Full Power Switch [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1862030393-951758591-957187727@topica.com> Wrenches, I'm sure a lot of you get either the Nothern Tool & Equipment Catalog or the Great Plains catalog (they seem to be the same company). They have all sort of tools, sprayers, pumps etc at pretty good prices. web site for Great Plains is www.GPCatalog.com if anyone is interested. In the latest Great Plains they have two generators the feature a full power switch. Continuous ratings for them are 4500 watts and 6600 watts, both are Honda powered, have low oil shutdown, and come with voltmeter and hour meter. From the description they say this feature allows the user to get full power at 120v. I'm not talking about an auto idle switch or load sense switch. I have seen generators that have this feature before but have never hooked one up to a inverter or battery charger. This would solve a lot of problems when trying to charge batteries with one inverter or charger while not using the T240 or similar device. The price is right too. Does anyone have any experience with these full power switches? I'd like to here some pro's and con's Thanks Travis Creswell - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Mon May 1 14:51:04 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Backwoods Solar Electric Systems) Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 11:51:04 -0700 Subject: Full Power Switch [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1862030393-951758591-957187727@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1114960513-212058698-957207064@topica.com> The full power switches connect both windings in parallel for double the current at only 120 volts. This certainly helps increase the effective size of the generator. Most Honda models have that switch if they are 240 volt equipped. However if the generator is of poor design and neither coil has full peak voltage, you can still have that problem with low output on many automotive chargers, Todd chargers to some extent and non sine Trace to a great extent. There is one more solution out there, a 10% boost transformer that goes between generator and charger which seems to restore full charge rate. we are trying these this year but have little experience yet. The best solution of course is to have a better quality generator, usually in the range of $2500 minimum, or most any 1800 rpm generator, Brushless types are the worst waveform I have seen. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems A catalog business on a mountain 2 miles from utility lines, powered entirely by our catalog products. IF UTILITY POWER IS 1/2 MILE OR MORE FROM YOUR SITE, get our free 160 page solar-electric Planning Guide/Catalog. (Your postal address required - Our list is never given or sold). Phone(208)263-4290 Fax (208) 265-4788 in Idaho, USA ----- Original Message ----- From: Travis Creswell To: RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 6:28 AM Subject: Full Power Switch [RE-wrenches] > Wrenches, > > I'm sure a lot of you get either the Nothern Tool & Equipment Catalog or the > Great Plains catalog (they seem to be the same company). They have all sort > of tools, sprayers, pumps etc at pretty good prices. web site for Great > Plains is www.GPCatalog.com if anyone is interested. > > In the latest Great Plains they have two generators the feature a full power > switch. Continuous ratings for them are 4500 watts and 6600 watts, both are > Honda powered, have low oil shutdown, and come with voltmeter and hour > meter. From the description they say this feature allows the user to get > full power at 120v. I'm not talking about an auto idle switch or load sense > switch. I have seen generators that have this feature before but have > never hooked one up to a inverter or battery charger. This would solve a > lot of problems when trying to charge batteries with one inverter or charger > while not using the T240 or similar device. The price is right too. Does > anyone have any experience with these full power switches? I'd like to here > some pro's and con's > > > Thanks > Travis Creswell > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From roy at four-winds-energy.com Mon May 1 15:09:08 2000 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy) Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 12:09:08 -0700 Subject: Full Power Switch [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1862030393-951758591-957187727@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1114960513-212058698-957207064@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.218156840-951758591-957208148@topica.com> My experience with full power switches has also been mixed....it most certainly does depend on the generators' peak voltage, waveform (yes, brushless ARE the worst!) and that pesky little Power Factor. I also find that in a lot of cases, using the full power switch does NOT give you the total genset power @ 120VAC but rather something to the tune of 75 to 85%. It does help though and is preferrable to the greater of the 2 evils...the unbalanced loading of the generator. The best solution is most definitely use a good quality generator that's somewhat oversized to your charging needs....now that I've said that I'll admit that I tend to utilize the "throwaway" generators for my own system. I've got a Coleman Progen 5000 that does not have a full power switch but is run thru the Trace T240 for balancing purposes. In case anyone asks...I would never design and sell a system like this to one of my customers...I just like to experiment on my own system! FYI...my tests show that because of the smoke and mirrors game that small generator manufacturers play for their generator wattage ratings, what's actually reaching the T240 is just below it's full time rating of 3900 watts. Runs my DR3624 charger like a champ! Roy - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Mon May 1 15:16:42 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Backwoods Solar Electric Systems) Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 12:16:42 -0700 Subject: Full Power Switch [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1862030393-951758591-957187727@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1114960513-212058698-957207064@topica.com> <0.1300002502.218156840-951758591-957208148@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.63215012-212058698-957208602@topica.com> Roy, I have never fully understood the need to "balance" the load on a generator. I understood that each winding would be built to withstand it's share of the load, about half the available horsepower of the engine. So if one winding is fully loaded and the other not, as in running a skillsaw on a generator without that switch, should it really harm the generator? Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems A catalog business on a mountain 2 miles from utility lines, powered entirely by our catalog products. IF UTILITY POWER IS 1/2 MILE OR MORE FROM YOUR SITE, get our free 160 page solar-electric Planning Guide/Catalog. (Your postal address required - Our list is never given or sold). Phone(208)263-4290 Fax (208) 265-4788 in Idaho, USA ----- Original Message ----- From: Roy To: Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 12:09 PM Subject: Re: Full Power Switch [RE-wrenches] > My experience with full power switches has also been mixed....it most > certainly does depend on the generators' peak voltage, waveform (yes, > brushless ARE the worst!) and that pesky little Power Factor. > I also find that in a lot of cases, using the full power switch does > NOT give you the total genset power @ 120VAC but rather something to the > tune of 75 to 85%. It does help though and is preferrable to the greater > of the 2 evils...the unbalanced loading of the generator. > The best solution is most definitely use a good quality generator > that's somewhat oversized to your charging needs....now that I've said that > I'll admit that I tend to utilize the "throwaway" generators for my own > system. I've got a Coleman Progen 5000 that does not have a full power > switch but is run thru the Trace T240 for balancing purposes. In case > anyone asks...I would never design and sell a system like this to one of my > customers...I just like to experiment on my own system! > FYI...my tests show that because of the smoke and mirrors game that > small generator manufacturers play for their generator wattage ratings, > what's actually reaching the T240 is just below it's full time rating of > 3900 watts. Runs my DR3624 charger like a champ! > Roy > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From roy at four-winds-energy.com Mon May 1 15:40:07 2000 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy) Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 12:40:07 -0700 Subject: Full Power Switch [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1862030393-951758591-957187727@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1114960513-212058698-957207064@topica.com> <0.1300002502.218156840-951758591-957208148@topica.com> <0.1300002502.63215012-212058698-957208602@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.77677401-951758591-957210007@topica.com> Steve...I admit to not fully understanding that aspect of it. I have, however, seen the results (at least, what I believe to be the results) of running the generator unbalanced over long periods of time: Increased bearing wear and exciter circuit component damage. I'm told that the armature will spin "off center"...much like an unbalanced tire will when most or all of the load is applied to 1 set of the windings. I have not personally verified this. The condenser, brush and rectifier damage could also be attributed to other factors as well. So....I'm just going along with the generator manufacturers' info which states that a balanced load is better for the longevity of the unit. I'd love to see some hard facts and figures to back any of this up....I can only go with what I've seen in the field so far. Roy - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From carlson at pe.net Mon May 1 17:07:39 2000 From: carlson at pe.net (Scott Carlson) Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 14:07:39 -0700 Subject: wrenches self promotion [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.784070059-951758591-956885833@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.690260924-951758591-957215259@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/mixed Size: 8917 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ozsolar at ipa.net Mon May 1 19:06:37 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell) Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 16:06:37 -0700 Subject: Full Power Switch [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.359571813-212058698-957222397@topica.com> Steve & Roy, Thanks for all your input. Yes, the generators that I mentioned are brushless. Just how bad is that besides being a throw away gen. head? They are priced at $1425 for 4500 Watt and $1710 for the 6600 watt (that is the cont. rating not surge). That puts them under Steve's $2500 rule of thumb. I have used several similar to them and they seem to do OK. They do convert to propane pretty easily and run very good. The kohlers that I've used beat them hands down but they are about 4 time more of course. If you really load them down the voltage does drop off. Regarding unbalancing, what I most frequently see when I hook only one leg up a low $ generator to one inverter/charger is the voltage quickly drops off (under 110) from the parameter that the inverter will accept. Then the inverter disconnects itself from the generator. Then the generator voltage quickly gets too high for the inverter to accept. After a while it settles down and the whole cycles starts again. The best solution I've found is to hook up a relatively large load, something like 500 watt quartz works great,to the unloaded 120 volt side of the generator. It kind of quirky telling a customer that he has to turn a light on to charge his batteries. I usually seem to do dual inverter system which solves so many head aches. What about these small (4000 - 6000) diesel generators that I am seeing around? Does anyone know if they are 1800 RPM or 3600 RPM. I have fiddled with several older single cylinder diesels. These new one look just like the gas ones. Travis Creswell ---------- >From: Roy >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Subject: Re: Full Power Switch [RE-wrenches] >Date: Mon, May 1, 2000, 2:40 PM > >Steve...I admit to not fully understanding that aspect of it. I have, >however, seen the results (at least, what I believe to be the results) of >running the generator unbalanced over long periods of time: Increased >bearing wear and exciter circuit component damage. I'm told that the >armature will spin "off center"...much like an unbalanced tire will when >most or all of the load is applied to 1 set of the windings. I have not >personally verified this. > The condenser, brush and rectifier damage could also be attributed to >other factors as well. So....I'm just going along with the generator >manufacturers' info which states that a balanced load is better for the >longevity of the unit. I'd love to see some hard facts and figures to back >any of this up....I can only go with what I've seen in the field so far. >Roy > >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: > >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > >To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >for info contact: >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Mon May 1 19:24:36 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (Sharkey) Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 16:24:36 -0700 Subject: Full Power Switch [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.359571813-212058698-957222397@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.59495017-212058698-957223476@topica.com> >What about these small (4000 - 6000) diesel generators that I am seeing >around? Does anyone know if they are 1800 RPM or 3600 RPM. If they are direct drive, they are 1800 RPM. Very few diesel engines run much faster than 2,000 RPM, and they don't need to anyway, as they have tons of torque at low revs. The main reason for 3,600 RPM with gas engines is this is very convienently the upper end of the torque curve for gasoline (and propane) engines. A gas engine direct driving an 1,800 RPM generator would have to be almost twice the horsepower to shoulder the load, compared to what is needed at 3,600. It would tend to bog down under load, wouldn't be very efficient, and would probably release yet more pollutants than if it was running in it's "sweet spot" around 3,600. -S - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From michael.welch at homepower.com Mon May 1 19:31:28 2000 From: michael.welch at homepower.com (Michael Welch) Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 16:31:28 -0700 Subject: Energy Fairs???? [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.946680889-212058698-957223479@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.942234920-212058698-957221966@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.200407604-951758591-957223888@topica.com> At 04:24 PM 05/01/2000 -0700, you wrote: >Michael; > > Let me know if you want me to turn this into a perl script that can e-mail >you the results by filling in a form similar to the one for the wrenches. Thanks, I thought about putting a mailto: form somewhere, but I don't think I am going to get that many more responses, so we will be OK. Michael Welch ------------------------ "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." Edward Abbey Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com Associate Editor, Home Power magazine Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cvsolar at aol.com Mon May 1 20:45:43 2000 From: cvsolar at aol.com (cvsolar at aol.com) Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 17:45:43 -0700 Subject: wrenches self promotion [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1419767816-212058698-957228343@topica.com> I was just going to suggest a map but I guess Travis beat me to it. Good idea. John Blittersdorf - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cvsolar at aol.com Mon May 1 20:45:51 2000 From: cvsolar at aol.com (cvsolar at aol.com) Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 17:45:51 -0700 Subject: wrenches self promotion [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.281046361-212058698-957228351@topica.com> Travis, Good idea to get our territories listed. Sparkey, Speaking of updating our profile, do we resubmit the whole profile or can we edit what is there. I remember you saying something about having to cut and paste the info in. What method is best for us to send updates to our profile? I Think the first step is to get territories listed in our profiles and I would agree that a referral fee might just get this network moving faster. John Blittersdorf 200 West Road North Chittenden, VT 05763 (Territory: 50 mile radius of Rutland, Vermont or farther if no one else covers the area) - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From toddcory at jps.net Mon May 1 21:17:54 2000 From: toddcory at jps.net (Todd Cory) Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 18:17:54 -0700 Subject: Full Power Switch [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1862030393-951758591-957187727@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1114960513-212058698-957207064@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.791975171-212058698-957230274@topica.com> Backwoods Solar Electric Systems wrote: > > There is one more solution out there, a 10% boost transformer > that goes between generator and charger which seems to restore full charge > rate. We are trying these this year but have little experience yet. I have one customer that is currently using one of these with a 2500 watt Honda generator and he reports an excellent increase in charging performance off an older Trace mod sine wave (2512SB) inverter's charger. According to him, charging output went from the 35 to 40 amp range to 75 to 85 amps depending on battery SOC. I would recommend these for folks as the performance gain in charging and associated reduced generator run time easily is worth the $139.00 list price. TC -- Todd Cory KE6SXS toddcory at jps.net Bald Mountain Solar P.O. Box 689 Mt. Shasta, Ca. 96067 (530) 926-1079 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ellison at gisco.net Mon May 1 21:23:11 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison) Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 18:23:11 -0700 Subject: Full Power Switch [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.359571813-212058698-957222397@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1660259135-951758591-957230591@topica.com> Travis, I just had to take a 3.5 hour ride (1 way) to adjust a 4024 Trace that was fed by a 6000 watt diesel generator. It would either start charging and quit or not pick it up at all. After I got there my thoughts were confirmed, the voltage was out of spec. The gentleman is in his 80's and had no phone on site, so there was no way to explain it to him. GET THIS ---- It started at 141 volts, I checked the speed and it was turning at 3600 RPM so I raised the upper limit to 143 volts, it transferred and started charging fine. There are no external meters on the system so I was bouncing around a bit to try to keep track. Suddenly it stopped after 10 min or so. I restarted the generator and it picked up as it normally would, It turned out that the voltage was dropping to 103 volts and the inverter was hitting the low cut off also. Once I lowered that it was fine. The generator was from WW Granger Co. He had just blown and changed a capacitor. The replacement cost was around $250.00! I would not touch one of those generators with a 10' pole. Later, Bob Ellison -----Original Message----- From: Travis Creswell [mailto:ozsolar at ipa.net] Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 7:07 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Re: Full Power Switch [RE-wrenches] Steve & Roy, Thanks for all your input. Yes, the generators that I mentioned are brushless. Just how bad is that besides being a throw away gen. head? They are priced at $1425 for 4500 Watt and $1710 for the 6600 watt (that is the cont. rating not surge). That puts them under Steve's $2500 rule of thumb. I have used several similar to them and they seem to do OK. They do convert to propane pretty easily and run very good. The kohlers that I've used beat them hands down but they are about 4 time more of course. If you really load them down the voltage does drop off. Regarding unbalancing, what I most frequently see when I hook only one leg up a low $ generator to one inverter/charger is the voltage quickly drops off (under 110) from the parameter that the inverter will accept. Then the inverter disconnects itself from the generator. Then the generator voltage quickly gets too high for the inverter to accept. After a while it settles down and the whole cycles starts again. The best solution I've found is to hook up a relatively large load, something like 500 watt quartz works great,to the unloaded 120 volt side of the generator. It kind of quirky telling a customer that he has to turn a light on to charge his batteries. I usually seem to do dual inverter system which solves so many head aches. What about these small (4000 - 6000) diesel generators that I am seeing around? Does anyone know if they are 1800 RPM or 3600 RPM. I have fiddled with several older single cylinder diesels. These new one look just like the gas ones. Travis Creswell - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ellison at gisco.net Mon May 1 21:30:12 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison) Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 18:30:12 -0700 Subject: Full Power Switch [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.59495017-212058698-957223476@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.923395035-951758591-957231012@topica.com> There are getting to be a lot of small 3600 RPM diesels out there. All imported and I don't expect them to last long as a 1800 RPM unit. A generator is a nasty load to carry. Engines generally don't like steady RPM and varying load, they prefer varying RPM and a steady load. Bob Ellison -----Original Message----- From: Sharkey [mailto:sharkey at mrsharkey.com] Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 7:25 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Re: Full Power Switch [RE-wrenches] >What about these small (4000 - 6000) diesel generators that I am seeing >around? Does anyone know if they are 1800 RPM or 3600 RPM. If they are direct drive, they are 1800 RPM. Very few diesel engines run much faster than 2,000 RPM, and they don't need to anyway, as they have tons of torque at low revs. The main reason for 3,600 RPM with gas engines is this is very convienently the upper end of the torque curve for gasoline (and propane) engines. A gas engine direct driving an 1,800 RPM generator would have to be almost twice the horsepower to shoulder the load, compared to what is needed at 3,600. It would tend to bog down under load, wouldn't be very efficient, and would probably release yet more pollutants than if it was running in it's "sweet spot" around 3,600. -S - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ellison at gisco.net Mon May 1 21:36:41 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison) Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 18:36:41 -0700 Subject: voltage increasing transformer. [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.791975171-212058698-957230274@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1572225060-951758591-957231401@topica.com> I have heard of these transformers, but never could locate one, where do I locate a supplier? Bob Ellison. I have one customer that is currently using one of these with a 2500 watt Honda generator and he reports an excellent increase in charging performance off an older Trace mod sine wave (2512SB) inverter's charger. According to him, charging output went from the 35 to 40 amp range to 75 to 85 amps depending on battery SOC. I would recommend these for folks as the performance gain in charging and associated reduced generator run time easily is worth the $139.00 list price. TC -- Todd Cory KE6SXS toddcory at jps.net Bald Mountain Solar P.O. Box 689 Mt. Shasta, Ca. 96067 (530) 926-1079 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From toddcory at jps.net Mon May 1 21:43:24 2000 From: toddcory at jps.net (Todd Cory) Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 18:43:24 -0700 Subject: voltage increasing transformer. [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1572225060-951758591-957231401@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1926347283-212058698-957231804@topica.com> Hi Bob, He got his from Vermont Solar; 800.286.1252; or see the advertisement on page 122, of HP 76. Todd Bob Ellison wrote: > I have heard of these transformers, but never could locate one, where do I > locate a supplier? > > Bob Ellison. > > I have one customer that is currently using one of these with a 2500 watt > Honda generator and he > reports an excellent increase in charging performance off an older Trace mod > sine wave (2512SB) > inverter's charger. According to him, charging output went from the 35 to 40 > amp range to 75 to 85 > amps depending on battery SOC. > > I would recommend these for folks as the performance gain in charging and > associated reduced > generator run time easily is worth the $139.00 list price. - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cvsolar at aol.com Mon May 1 22:17:23 2000 From: cvsolar at aol.com (cvsolar at aol.com) Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 19:17:23 -0700 Subject: wrenches self promotion [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.741440802-212058698-957233843@topica.com> Yes, Need that map. I just received a request from a person in Longview, Texas. Which one of you is closest to this guy? He will be building a home and wants to be completely self sufficient without backup.... Lots of PV's & big battery bank $$$$. Who bids the highest for this lead? Seriously, I will spend $ to send him info and never hear from him again or I can blow him off and not respond. Looks like a quick email to him with a Texas wrench's email address and a quick forward of his message to one of you guys might be an easier solution for me. John Blittersdorf Central Vermont Solar and Wind. - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From falk at investusa.net Mon May 1 22:32:17 2000 From: falk at investusa.net (Kenneth C. Falk, CCIM) Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 19:32:17 -0700 Subject: wrenches self promotion [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.741440802-212058698-957233843@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.938815176-212058698-957234737@topica.com> John, I know that you were only kidding (I hope), about bidding for the referral. That would be a self-defeating waste of time, in my opinion. Better to set the fee up-front, that everyone would expect. In real estate, it is usually 20 to 25% of what I would make on a project. It doesn't have to be that high, because, in many cases, the margin isn't that much. Maybe 10% is more realistic. Setting the limit now would be more productive than getting into bidding wars or any hard feelings later because a negotiation didn't go ones way. And territories sounds like a good idea. That's how "big business" does it! Ken Falk ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 10:17 PM Subject: Re: wrenches self promotion [RE-wrenches] > Yes, Need that map. > I just received a request from a person in Longview, Texas. Which one of > you is closest to this guy? He will be building a home and wants to be > completely self sufficient without backup.... Lots of PV's & big battery bank > $$$$. Who bids the highest for this lead? Seriously, I will spend $ to send > him info and never hear from him again or I can blow him off and not respond. > Looks like a quick email to him with a Texas wrench's email address and a > quick forward of his message to one of you guys might be an easier solution > for me. > > John Blittersdorf > Central Vermont Solar and Wind. > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cvsolar at aol.com Mon May 1 22:55:25 2000 From: cvsolar at aol.com (cvsolar at aol.com) Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 19:55:25 -0700 Subject: E-meter [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2053366843-951758591-957236125@topica.com> Hi all, I am doing another experiment at my house (along with the humming DC250) to determine the negative aspects of an undersized battery bank. I have gone to manual generator start so I can play with the battery state of charge. I have 4 Trojan L16G batteries in a 24v bank feeding the SW4024. Loads vary from a base of 4 to 8 amps to a peak of 70 to 80 amps. Charge rate with my Yamaha 4600 is set at 60 amps. Because I have been hitting the batteries hard at both ends, I have noticed a deterioration in the batteries capacity (in only 4 weeks of usage) . I will get down to 80% on the e-meter and negative amp hours agree but my battery voltage is way down indicating less than 50% left. I fiddled with the Peukerts exponent setting and set it to 1.5 (the maximum) and it didn't seem to make any difference. Does the e-meter just lose it's ability to properly track the battery at high loads? Anyone had any experience with this. I saw a similar problem with one installed system with big loads and small battery bank. Unfortunately I did not have the e-meter on my old bank of 16 T105's that were worn out so I don't know what the indications of a failed battery would look like. These batteries charge to 28.8 without any trouble but they are having a fast voltage drop similar to my worn out T105's (though not as bad) The negative amp hours on my e-meter seem to be correct based on my loads. Battery specific gravity reading indicates batteries are not really fully charged after running the generator for two hours at 28.8v bulk absorption charge. Current drops off normally. Does this have something to do with the HUMMMMM? I'm confused! John Blittersdorf CVSolar - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunwise at win.bright.net Mon May 1 23:49:52 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (sunwise at win.bright.net) Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 20:49:52 -0700 Subject: E-meter [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.2053366843-951758591-957236125@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1771603607-951758591-957239392@topica.com> John wrote : I will get down to 80% on the e-meter and negative amp hours agree but my battery voltage is way down indicating less than 50% left. Hey John, Couple quick questions.... what method did you use to determine SOC by battery voltage? I don't know where your system hails from, but is your new battery in an unheated space and cooling down (and/or is your Emeter T-compensated? -- maybe/also, is your Trace's temp/comp probe on the battery?)? --- Kurt, from a still cold climate. - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Tue May 2 00:16:37 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (Sharkey) Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 21:16:37 -0700 Subject: wrenches self promotion [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.281046361-212058698-957228351@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.674040223-212058698-957240997@topica.com> > Speaking of updating our profile, do we resubmit the whole profile or can >we edit what is there. What method is best for us to send updates to our >profile? Wrenches; At this point, just e-mail me with additions/changes, and I'll make the changes by hand. Writing a script that can append your completed (and posted) profiles is Big Perl Script JuJu, and something I'd have to study up on when I have more slack time (like next winter!!!). I can add the 'territory' category to the profile survey pretty easily, so that new wrench submissions would have a line item included for that. Once your 'territorys' start coming in, I can figure out what to do in the way of a 'map' to let us look up who is where and will travel how far. Try to make your area descriptions farily general, like "Northern California" or "Olympic Penninusla". If you're willing to travel entire states, just put that down, but if you're sticking to a specific locale, make sure that it is recognizable and has a descriptive name. This may take a few attempts to get it right, so have patience. -S - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ellison at gisco.net Tue May 2 03:46:29 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison) Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 00:46:29 -0700 Subject: E-meter [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.2053366843-951758591-957236125@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1445450132-212058698-957253589@topica.com> John, If you have 4 - L-16's on a SW4024 I don't think you have enough battery for an inverter of that size (you know that), so I would expect it to drag the voltage down in a hurry. 120 amps will charge the batteries too fast, so 60 is probably a happy medium, but you could bump it up to 80 to 90 amps to get to the upper limit. The Peukerts exponent is 1.28 if I remember correctly. If you take 200 AH from the battery bank @ a 60 amp charge it will take around 31/2 to 4 hours or probably longer to charge them I would expect. In reality it will probably be longer. Sometimes I think the e-meter does all it's calculating at the very end of its charge cycle, I have seen it drop 200 AH in a few seconds (or so it seems), reset to zero AH and start flashing as soon as I turn my back. (Is this similar to a watched pot never boiling?) Do you have the temp. compensated for? It is in centigrade if you don't have the probe, so you have to think about it. I have always found battery voltage to be tricky, the battery needs to sit for several hours unused to be accurate, otherwise I have always found the readings to be on the low side. I just quit worrying about it! The E-Meter sure beats using a hydrometer every hour..... Bob -----Original Message----- From: cvsolar at aol.com [mailto:cvsolar at aol.com] Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 10:55 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: E-meter [RE-wrenches] Hi all, I am doing another experiment at my house (along with the humming DC250) to determine the negative aspects of an undersized battery bank. I have gone to manual generator start so I can play with the battery state of charge. I have 4 Trojan L16G batteries in a 24v bank feeding the SW4024. Loads vary from a base of 4 to 8 amps to a peak of 70 to 80 amps. Charge rate with my Yamaha 4600 is set at 60 amps. Because I have been hitting the batteries hard at both ends, I have noticed a deterioration in the batteries capacity (in only 4 weeks of usage) . I will get down to 80% on the e-meter and negative amp hours agree but my battery voltage is way down indicating less than 50% left. I fiddled with the Peukerts exponent setting and set it to 1.5 (the maximum) and it didn't seem to make any difference. Does the e-meter just lose its ability to properly track the battery at high loads? Anyone had any experience with this. I saw a similar problem with one installed system with big loads and small battery bank. Unfortunately I did not have the e-meter on my old bank of 16 T105's that were worn out so I don't know what the indications of a failed battery would look like. These batteries charge to 28.8 without any trouble but they are having a fast voltage drop similar to my worn out T105's (though not as bad) The negative amp hours on my e-meter seem to be correct based on my loads. Battery specific gravity reading indicates batteries are not really fully charged after running the generator for two hours at 28.8v bulk absorption charge. Current drops off normally. Does this have something to do with the HUMMMMM? I'm confused! John Blittersdorf CVSolar - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Tue May 2 08:52:57 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell) Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 05:52:57 -0700 Subject: E-meter [RE-wrenches] & Battery VooDoo Message-ID: <0.1300002502.764094390-212058698-957271977@topica.com> John, My two cents. Some manufacturers claim that is takes several cycles to get the batteries up to full capacity. Maybe you haven't broke them in yet? Are you compensating the spec. gravity reading for temp? Using voltage is for SOC is hard the hard way to do it. You can only use it if the batteries have not been charged or discharged for at least several hours. What about equalizing the batteries? What is the history of these batteries before you got them? My experience with 6 volt flooded batteries is that the voltage really drops off under load. You probably have already thought of all of this. Travis Creswell ---------- >From: cvsolar at aol.com >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Subject: E-meter [RE-wrenches] >Date: Mon, May 1, 2000, 9:55 PM > >Hi all, > I am doing another experiment at my house (along with the humming DC250) >to determine the negative aspects of an undersized battery bank. I have gone >to manual generator start so I can play with the battery state of charge. I >have 4 Trojan L16G batteries in a 24v bank feeding the SW4024. Loads vary >from a base of 4 to 8 amps to a peak of 70 to 80 amps. Charge rate with my >Yamaha 4600 is set at 60 amps. Because I have been hitting the batteries >hard at both ends, I have noticed a deterioration in the batteries capacity >(in only 4 weeks of usage) . I will get down to 80% on the e-meter and >negative amp hours agree but my battery voltage is way down indicating less >than 50% left. I fiddled with the Peukerts exponent setting and set it to >1.5 (the maximum) and it didn't seem to make any difference. Does the >e-meter just lose it's ability to properly track the battery at high loads? >Anyone had any experience with this. I saw a similar problem with one >installed system with big loads and small battery bank. > >Unfortunately I did not have the e-meter on my old bank of 16 T105's that >were worn out so I don't know what the indications of a failed battery would >look like. These batteries charge to 28.8 without any trouble but they are >having a fast voltage drop similar to my worn out T105's (though not as bad) >The negative amp hours on my e-meter seem to be correct based on my loads. >Battery specific gravity reading indicates batteries are not really fully >charged after running the generator for two hours at 28.8v bulk absorption >charge. Current drops off normally. Does this have something to do with >the HUMMMMM? I'm confused! > >John Blittersdorf >CVSolar >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: > >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > >To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >for info contact: >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Tue May 2 08:56:05 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell) Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 05:56:05 -0700 Subject: wrenches self promotion [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1014878261-212058698-957272165@topica.com> John, I am in Southern Missouri. I work all over AR, KS, MO and OK and have ventured into TX for the right job. I am somewhat interested but only if there isn't anyone closer. I'd be glad to help. I have lead for someone as soon as he tells me where he is at? Thanks Travis Creswell ---------- >From: cvsolar at aol.com >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Subject: Re: wrenches self promotion [RE-wrenches] >Date: Mon, May 1, 2000, 9:17 PM > >Yes, Need that map. > I just received a request from a person in Longview, Texas. Which one of >you is closest to this guy? He will be building a home and wants to be >completely self sufficient without backup.... Lots of PV's & big battery bank >$$$$. Who bids the highest for this lead? Seriously, I will spend $ to send >him info and never hear from him again or I can blow him off and not respond. > Looks like a quick email to him with a Texas wrench's email address and a >quick forward of his message to one of you guys might be an easier solution >for me. > >John Blittersdorf >Central Vermont Solar and Wind. - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From econnect at snowcrest.net Tue May 2 11:10:15 2000 From: econnect at snowcrest.net (Bob-O Schultze) Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 08:10:15 -0700 Subject: E-meter [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.2053366843-951758591-957236125@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.2053366843-951758591-957236125@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1543429957-212058698-957280215@topica.com> ALL meters have a hard time tracking under those conditions. Batteries do not come charged to 100%. The Emeter, Trimetric, whatever, come alive reading 100%. So, if you didn't do a full charge cycle right away, the meter is going to read more than you actually have. In the NE this time of year, battery temperature is probably also a factor. If you want maximum accuracy, you should have the optional temp sensor for the meter. Tweaking Peukert will help, but it won't come into effect until the next charge cycle. A charge cycle, by the way, is a DOD of >10% and a full recharge to re-zero the meter. Bob-O >Hi all, > I am doing another experiment at my house (along with the humming DC250) >to determine the negative aspects of an undersized battery bank. I have gone >to manual generator start so I can play with the battery state of charge. I >have 4 Trojan L16G batteries in a 24v bank feeding the SW4024. Loads vary >from a base of 4 to 8 amps to a peak of 70 to 80 amps. Charge rate with my >Yamaha 4600 is set at 60 amps. Because I have been hitting the batteries >hard at both ends, I have noticed a deterioration in the batteries capacity >(in only 4 weeks of usage) . I will get down to 80% on the e-meter and >negative amp hours agree but my battery voltage is way down indicating less >than 50% left. I fiddled with the Peukerts exponent setting and set it to >1.5 (the maximum) and it didn't seem to make any difference. Does the >e-meter just lose it's ability to properly track the battery at high loads? >Anyone had any experience with this. I saw a similar problem with one >installed system with big loads and small battery bank. > >Unfortunately I did not have the e-meter on my old bank of 16 T105's that >were worn out so I don't know what the indications of a failed battery would >look like. These batteries charge to 28.8 without any trouble but they are >having a fast voltage drop similar to my worn out T105's (though not as bad) >The negative amp hours on my e-meter seem to be correct based on my loads. >Battery specific gravity reading indicates batteries are not really fully >charged after running the generator for two hours at 28.8v bulk absorption >charge. Current drops off normally. Does this have something to do with the HUMMMMM? I'm confused! Bob-O Schultze, Electron Connection PO Box 203, Hornbrook, CA 96044 800.945.7587 fax 530-475-3401 www.electronconnection.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From microhydro at dplus.net Tue May 2 11:49:06 2000 From: microhydro at dplus.net (Ron Macleod) Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 08:49:06 -0700 Subject: wrenches self promotion [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.741440802-212058698-957233843@topica.com> <0.1300002502.938815176-212058698-957234737@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.921195756-951758591-957282546@topica.com> Hey Guys - We are all in the same business here - I don't see any need for a commission based on a lead from another part of the country. Lets just help each other out huh? We will be helping RE at the same time. As a manufacturer of small water turbines - I am prepared to give a dealer discount - but I'm not in the real estate business - I'm not going to pay for leads. The profits on this equipment are just too close.It's a little too early in the re-business to be paying out cash to folks who don't get their hands dirty on the job. We all work pretty close - there is no reason we can't help each other out. I think where commissions are appropriAte they can be worked out on a case by case basis - wrench to wrench. Frankly - I'm not sure this sort of thing is what the wrench list was designed to facilitate. Best Ron Kenneth C. Falk, CCIM wrote: > > John, > > I know that you were only kidding (I hope), about bidding for the referral. > That would be a self-defeating waste of time, in my opinion. Better to set > the fee up-front, that everyone would expect. In real estate, it is usually > 20 to 25% of what I would make on a project. It doesn't have to be that > high, because, in many cases, the margin isn't that much. Maybe 10% is more > realistic. Setting the limit now would be more productive than getting into > bidding wars or any hard feelings later because a negotiation didn't go ones > way. And territories sounds like a good idea. That's how "big business" > does it! > > Ken Falk > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 10:17 PM > Subject: Re: wrenches self promotion [RE-wrenches] > > > Yes, Need that map. > > I just received a request from a person in Longview, Texas. Which one > of > > you is closest to this guy? He will be building a home and wants to be > > completely self sufficient without backup.... Lots of PV's & big battery > bank > > $$$$. Who bids the highest for this lead? Seriously, I will spend $ to > send > > him info and never hear from him again or I can blow him off and not > respond. > > Looks like a quick email to him with a Texas wrench's email address and a > > quick forward of his message to one of you guys might be an easier > solution > > for me. > > > > John Blittersdorf > > Central Vermont Solar and Wind. > > - - - - - - - > > To send a message to the list use: > > > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > > > > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > > > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > > > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > > > for info contact: > > ___________________________________________________________ > > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From michael.welch at homepower.com Tue May 2 12:25:34 2000 From: michael.welch at homepower.com (Michael Welch) Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 09:25:34 -0700 Subject: Referral $$$ [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.921195756-951758591-957282546@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.741440802-212058698-957233843@topica.com> <0.1300002502.938815176-212058698-957234737@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2010043425-212058698-957284734@topica.com> At 08:49 AM 05/02/2000 -0700, you wrote: > We are all in the same business here - I don't see any need for a >commission based on a lead from another part of the country. Lets just >help each other out huh? We will be helping RE at the same time. > We all work pretty close - there is no reason we can't help each other >out. I think where commissions are appropriate they can be worked out on >a case by case basis - wrench to wrench. > Frankly - I'm not sure this sort of thing is what the wrench list was >designed to facilitate. Hello Ron and Wrenches. The list was originally thought of in terms of technical info. This is your list, and I see discussions of dealer business a very good additional use of this list. That said, I want to also agree with Ron. I see that pay for referrals is a bit dangerous, and might add an unsavory edge to the biz. The thing that bothers me the most is that referrals may end up going to the dealer that is willing to pay for it, or pay the most. This may not be the best dealer for the job. Some dealers WILL look at the money and not the experience/capability/longevity of the referred dealer. That is not in our long-term best interest. From what I have seen and heard, experienced installing dealers are doing pretty well. Many that I have had contact with have been working pretty steadily, unlike 5-6 years ago when everything was so iffy. So, while it is always nice to have more funds flowing into the coffers, most of the experienced dealers have a pretty good income right now. As far as newer, unestablished dealers go, I say give them a chance with referrals if there are no experienced ones nearby. If you run into a problem with their work or if they turn out to be weasels, then don't refer to them any more. The word will spread about these guys, and without peer support they will not do as well as the rest of you. It is my opinion that this movement (and that's what it is, in addition to a business) has been steadily building based on non-financial incentives. So, instead of wanting a price for your referrals, please make those referrals based on the abilities of the referral recipient. And if your company also has appropriate abilities and reputation, you can rest assured that you will get referrals yourself. I see no need to throw money into the picture. I think it might be bad for the industry. As a director of a non-profit that deals regularly with home scale RE, I give a LOT of referrals (several of you on the list have gotten them). Those folks that do a good job, are known to be customer-friendly, and score zero on the weasel continuum are the ones that continue to get referrals from me. I do not expect anything for my referrals, except that the dealer continue doing a good job. Michael Welch ------------------------ "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." Edward Abbey Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com Associate Editor, Home Power magazine Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From i2p at aol.com Tue May 2 12:31:44 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (i2p at aol.com) Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 09:31:44 -0700 Subject: Referral $$$ [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.904576409-212058698-957285104@topica.com> In a message dated 05/02/2000 9:26:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time, michael.welch at homepower.com writes: << As a director of a non-profit that deals regularly with home scale RE, I give a LOT of referrals (several of you on the list have gotten them). Those folks that do a good job, are known to be customer-friendly, and score zero on the weasel continuum are the ones that continue to get referrals from me. I do not expect anything for my referrals, except that the dealer continue doing a good job. Michael Welch >> I'm comfortable with Michaels way of doing things. The most important thing is good customer support and service. Lets keep it low key and friendly. Don - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Tue May 2 14:17:18 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell) Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 11:17:18 -0700 Subject: Leads for $$$ [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1110046687-951758591-957291438@topica.com> Wrenches, I agree that we should back off from $ for leads at this point. Maybe we should bring it up again later. That said, we still need to find people who are interested in solar the right person to serve them. It needs to be informal yet professional. Just because someone is on this Wrench list doesn't make them qualified? But who gets the leads? Naturally, the most leads will come from the areas with the most dealers. For example, in my preferred area (SW MO, NE OK, NW AR, SE KS) as far I know I am the only Wrench ,which makes sense, since as far I know I am the only RE Dealer which makes sense since there isn't much RE done around here. Compare my area to California where there is a lot more RE done there is a lot more RE dealers, some with the same service areas. Next, what about the distributors on this list? Some sell to end users. I think it would be appropriate for us dealer/installers to ask them NOT to respond to a lead that is presented to this list until it is known that there is no "Installing Wrench" for that lead. I have nothing but respect for the distributors that are on the list. They have added some real value to the postings. None the less this list isn't exactly for them as understand (is it?)I don't think it would be appropriate for them to try to sell to the end user around us if we are there. I am going to post a lead for the list to view and see who responds after I send this email. Thanks Travis Creswell Ozark Solar - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Tue May 2 14:17:21 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell) Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 11:17:21 -0700 Subject: Lead in Glendale, AZ RV [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.736003966-951758591-957291441@topica.com> Wrenches, Here is a little experiment. At this point I am not including the email for this lead as I want to see what we all think of it. In the subject I've included "Lead" and then the LOCATION and the TYPE. If we come to see consensus then I will post his email and then I am done with him. If someone gets a nice job out of it then don't forget me. My intent it to have the favor returned to me someday. I have only had a few emails with him. My intent is not to interfere with the Wrench who gets this lead. Since I am passing the lead off I'll leave the price and design as he sees fit. Well, my guys are building a new 3 phase 600 amp service without me so I better get back to them. Later Travis Creswell First a little history The first time I spoke with this guy was on the Trace Power Talk Forum. He posted with questions about battery wiring and also mentioned that his inverter was 12' from his batteries. I posted back and told him that he needs to get closer to his batteries and if was interested I would be glad to see if I could find him someone close to help him. The latest message is directly below so start at the bottom and read up. Travis, I live in Glendale Arizona. What solar panels do you recommend? I have a 5ft by 10 ft area I would like to fill up with panels? Remember I'm using the SW4024. -----Original Message----- From: Travis Creswell [mailto:ozsolar at ipa.net] Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 6:13 PM To: Patrick Baumgart Subject: Re: Inverters Patrick, Good job! Where do you live and I will find see if I can find someone. I am part of another email list that is similar to Traces but only open to professional installers. You will be so better off by starting off with a good understanding. I am in SW Missouri if that helps you. Check out my website when you get a chance www.ozarksolar.com. I would really appreciate any comments you have about it. Thanks Travis Creswell Ozark Solar ---------- >From: "Patrick >To: >Subject: Inverters >Date: Mon, May 1, 2000, 1:41 PM > >Hi Travis, > >I have moved the inverter to about 5 feet from the batteries. If you know >of somebody that would we willing to guide and/or help me that would be >great. I want to learn about this process and the best way is to do it >yourself. So, if anything goes wrong on the side of the road I understand >what has been done. > >Thanks for your time > > >Patrick - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From michael.welch at homepower.com Tue May 2 14:55:50 2000 From: michael.welch at homepower.com (Michael Welch) Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 11:55:50 -0700 Subject: Lead in Glendale, AZ RV [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.736003966-951758591-957291441@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.541942372-212058698-957293750@topica.com> At 11:17 AM 05/02/2000 -0700, you wrote: >Here is a little experiment. At this point I am not including the email for >this lead as I want to see what we all think of it. In the subject I've >included "Lead" and then the LOCATION and the TYPE. If we come to see >consensus then I will post his email and then I am done with him. If >someone gets a nice job out of it then don't forget me. My intent it to >have the favor returned to me someday. I like this idea. Although let me suggest a slight modification. When you do decide to send this lead's contact info, instead of posting the info to the list, send it to the person receiving the lead as a private email. Contact info should not be made public without the person's permission to do so. Remember, anyone and everyone can read the messages posted here by going to the Topica web site. Michael Welch ------------------------ "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." Edward Abbey Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com Associate Editor, Home Power magazine Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ghigbee at efn.org Tue May 2 14:58:30 2000 From: ghigbee at efn.org (Gary Higbee) Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 11:58:30 -0700 Subject: Hydro-Stream Engine [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.589733890-212058698-957293910@topica.com> Hi Wrenches, I'm getting ready to install another Stream Engine, and this 24-volt system requires a run of around 450 feet. With a potential about 28 amps and 5% loss I'm looking at 4/0 copper. As we know 900' of this stuff is a tad on the pricey side. I've considered a few options, and would appreciate some feedback: 1) Go with smaller or Al wire (4/0 Al is pretty reasonable at about $450/1000), and accept a loss of about 8%. This doesn't seem out of line, and may end up being the simplest and most cost-effective solution. 2) Use a 48-24 converter at the batteries and let the Stream Engine run at a higher voltage. Anyone done this? With what? 3) Remove the rectifier box from the Stream Engine and run the 3-phase AC up to the batteries. Bob-O mentioned this possibility in his Oct/Nov '98 HP #67 article. Has anyone done this? What voltage would I use for the AC calculation? While I'm on the Stream Engine what sort of output improvement have you seen in adjusting the rotor, especially in increasing the air gap in a low-head, high-flow situation? Thank You! Gary P.S. If anyone is interested in a heavily-edited Stream Engine output adjustment procedure let me know and I'll send it to you. I found the procedure in the manual inadequate for for a client who wasn't familiar with the machine, and wrote a more-detailed version. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gary Higbee (ghigbee at efn.org) (541)607-1818 Solutions from the Land--solar, wind, and hydro site analysis, design, and installation ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From econnect at snowcrest.net Tue May 2 16:30:53 2000 From: econnect at snowcrest.net (Bob-O Schultze) Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 13:30:53 -0700 Subject: Hydro-Stream Engine [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.589733890-212058698-957293910@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.589733890-212058698-957293910@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.116269581-951758591-957299453@topica.com> Hiya Gary, At 450' you're kinda in between too far for good wire loss @ 24V and too close to justify the expense of HV transformers. I'd go with AL 4/0-4/0-2/0 URD. If you parallel one of the 4/0 and the 2/0, it works out to be roughly 250 MCM. The URD is a direct burial cable which costs about $1.22 ft. You just have to live with the loss, about 6.8% figuring 30V on the line and 28A. Jeeez, most of my clients would KILL for that good of a hydro output, never mind the losses! You don't say what low head, high flow means to you. (Some folks think 50' is low head, others think 50 GPM is high volume) I have 30' of head and seasonally between 50-150 GPM before I get into severe pipe losses. I use the #1 Parallel Delta winding configuration and you bet the air gap adjustment makes a difference! I can go from 5A to 18A at the same flow rate by adjusting the gap. If you find yourself adjusted right down close to the stator, reconfigure the windings down a setting. IE, from #2 Parallel Wye to #1 Parallel Delta. You'll likely get more amps. I'd like a copy of your detailed version, please. Good Luck, bob-O >Hi Wrenches, > >I'm getting ready to install another Stream Engine, and this 24-volt system >requires a run of around 450 feet. With a potential about 28 amps and 5% >loss I'm looking at 4/0 copper. As we know 900' of this stuff is a tad on >the pricey side. I've considered a few options, and would appreciate some >feedback: > >1) Go with smaller or Al wire (4/0 Al is pretty reasonable at about >$450/1000), and accept a loss of about 8%. This doesn't seem out of line, >and may end up being the simplest and most cost-effective solution. > >2) Use a 48-24 converter at the batteries and let the Stream Engine run at a >higher voltage. Anyone done this? With what? > >3) Remove the rectifier box from the Stream Engine and run the 3-phase AC up >to the batteries. Bob-O mentioned this possibility in his Oct/Nov '98 HP #67 >article. Has anyone done this? What voltage would I use for the AC >calculation? > >While I'm on the Stream Engine what sort of output improvement have you seen >in adjusting the rotor, especially in increasing the air gap in a low-head, >high-flow situation? > >Thank You! > >Gary > >P.S. If anyone is interested in a heavily-edited Stream Engine output >adjustment procedure let me know and I'll send it to you. I found the >procedure in the manual inadequate for for a client who wasn't familiar with >the machine, and wrote a more-detailed version. > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Gary Higbee (ghigbee at efn.org) > (541)607-1818 > Solutions from the Land--solar, > wind, and hydro site analysis, design, > and installation >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: > >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > >To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >for info contact: >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics Bob-O Schultze, Electron Connection PO Box 203, Hornbrook, CA 96044 800.945.7587 fax 530-475-3401 www.electronconnection.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Tue May 2 16:52:18 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Backwoods Solar Electric Systems) Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 13:52:18 -0700 Subject: E-meter [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1445450132-212058698-957253589@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.309529100-212058698-957300738@topica.com> Right about new batteries behaving strangely. Last fall I found 3 cases (one my own RV of two L-16 Trojans, two were large home systems) where a new set of batteries was accidentally deeply discharged. Recharging in each case would bring up the voltage, bubbling and all, but not the hydrometer readings to normal even after extensive equalizing. Consulting a factory engineer he said that was normal, if voltage and current indicated full charge they would straighten out hydrometer only after a few more normal cycles. While I could not closely observe all these cases, all did straighten out after further cycling. By the way I prefer TriMetric to E meter, but both are harder to program than an SW inverter. We set them to pretty standard starting points, being sure batteries are fully charged at the time. Not as familiar with the E meter, but TriMetric lets you turn off the automatic re-zero, so I can return a few weeks later and see if it is drifting too high or too low and make corrections to the % efficiency. When it is tracking well, then I turn on the auto zero function, which resets it to zero when voltage is at the high set-point and current below its set-point at the same time, which normally would indicate a fully charged battery. One problem is seasonal efficiency changes. batteries operate more efficiently in summer when charged slowly by solar, and less efficiently in winter when often charged more rapid rate by generator. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Ellison To: Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2000 12:46 AM Subject: RE: E-meter [RE-wrenches] - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Tue May 2 16:52:18 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Backwoods Solar Electric Systems) Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 13:52:18 -0700 Subject: Leads for $$$ [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1110046687-951758591-957291438@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.610137846-212058698-957300738@topica.com> Referral leads is a question I stayed out so far. we often refer customers to local installers, and in many cases these are installers buying systems from us by mail. Where it is not yet bought we ask them to buy through the installer (already knowing our list of installers is likely to shop here). Since we focus on owner builders and do it yourself customers, we sell direct. Then when they get into a problem, we nearly always can fix it with them by phone or email. In fact that is my own full time function here these days. But as we all know the market is expanding and we do get customers who have a system and get everything wrong and really need local help. That is why I compiled our own list of known local helpers, made up of folks who buy at discount from us and then install for their customers. We don't have the greatest discounts, being a retailer, so established wrenches with a good business volume would not normally be dealing with Backwoods solar as a major supplier. I have the belief that most local wrenches resent going to patch or maintain a system they did not sell, so that can be a problem for outfits like us wanting to refer that business to locals. I can urge the customer to buy through the local wrench, but what to do with those already bought? I just have to hope that the customer pays a fair fee for the work rendered to make that service worth while. We are pretty much building the infra structure of solar installations now. But the future will bring many more aging systems already out there, especially when a home sells to a new owner, and there will be a big market for solar servicemen, kind of like the HVAC guys that do regular annual calls to inspect and upgrade furnaces etc. I think as we get more existing systems built out there in places where the owner will no more check the batteries and connections than clean his own furnace, there will be a whole specialty of regular service routes to call on and maintain systems for independent power customers. Comments? Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems A catalog business on a mountain 2 miles from utility lines, powered entirely by our catalog products. IF UTILITY POWER IS 1/2 MILE OR MORE FROM YOUR SITE, get our free 160 page solar-electric Planning Guide/Catalog. (Your postal address required - Our list is never given or sold). Phone(208)263-4290 Fax (208) 265-4788 in Idaho, USA ----- Original Message ----- From: Travis Creswell To: RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2000 11:17 AM Subject: Leads for $$$ [RE-wrenches] > Wrenches, > > I agree that we should back off from $ for leads at this point. Maybe we > should bring it up again later. > > That said, we still need to find people who are interested in solar the > right person to serve them. It needs to be informal yet professional. > Just because someone is on this Wrench list doesn't make them qualified? > > But who gets the leads? Naturally, the most leads will come from the areas > with the most dealers. For example, in my preferred area (SW MO, NE OK, NW > AR, SE KS) as far I know I am the only Wrench ,which makes sense, since as > far I know I am the only RE Dealer which makes sense since there isn't much > RE done around here. Compare my area to California where there is a lot > more RE done there is a lot more RE dealers, some with the same service > areas. > > Next, what about the distributors on this list? Some sell to end users. I > think it would be appropriate for us dealer/installers to ask them NOT to > respond to a lead that is presented to this list until it is known that > there is no "Installing Wrench" for that lead. I have nothing but respect > for the distributors that are on the list. They have added some real value > to the postings. None the less this list isn't exactly for them as > understand (is it?)I don't think it would be appropriate for them to try to > sell to the end user around us if we are there. > > I am going to post a lead for the list to view and see who responds after I > send this email. > > Thanks > Travis Creswell > Ozark Solar > > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Tue May 2 16:55:59 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Backwoods Solar Electric Systems) Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 13:55:59 -0700 Subject: Hydro-Stream Engine [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.589733890-212058698-957293910@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.649127631-951758591-957300959@topica.com> We generally go above 5% in hydro installations, because, unlike solar, the hydro can rise to enough voltage that current is not as sharply cut as with solar. Don Harris says even 15% and over works fine. another factor is that with 24 hour a day hydro power these % losses can be afforded better, of course that will vary with the system circumstances. The 3 phase AC has worked for me, but I rarely do that any more. It is a real trick matching the transformers at battery end to the windings of the alternator. Mismatch impedance here can bring bigger losses, as can phase errors in connecting the transformer primaries and secondary where they don't fight each other. AEE has or did have a designer who made transformers custom wound for specific 3 phase alternators. Don Harris would supply a high voltage winding in the alternator and AEE would wind the transformer for the projected voltage and frequency of 3 phase power and get pretty good efficiency that way. But the price was around $400 for the transformer, so that had to be compared to the price of wire. 4 gauge, where possible with 10 or even 15% losses usually wins that one. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Higbee To: RE-Wrenches Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2000 11:58 AM Subject: Hydro-Stream Engine [RE-wrenches] > Hi Wrenches, > > I'm getting ready to install another Stream Engine, and this 24-volt system > requires a run of around 450 feet. With a potential about 28 amps and 5% > loss I'm looking at 4/0 copper. As we know 900' of this stuff is a tad on > the pricey side. I've considered a few options, and would appreciate some > feedback: > > 1) Go with smaller or Al wire (4/0 Al is pretty reasonable at about > $450/1000), and accept a loss of about 8%. This doesn't seem out of line, > and may end up being the simplest and most cost-effective solution. > > 2) Use a 48-24 converter at the batteries and let the Stream Engine run at a > higher voltage. Anyone done this? With what? > > 3) Remove the rectifier box from the Stream Engine and run the 3-phase AC up > to the batteries. Bob-O mentioned this possibility in his Oct/Nov '98 HP #67 > article. Has anyone done this? What voltage would I use for the AC > calculation? > > While I'm on the Stream Engine what sort of output improvement have you seen > in adjusting the rotor, especially in increasing the air gap in a low-head, > high-flow situation? > > Thank You! > > Gary > > P.S. If anyone is interested in a heavily-edited Stream Engine output > adjustment procedure let me know and I'll send it to you. I found the > procedure in the manual inadequate for for a client who wasn't familiar with > the machine, and wrote a more-detailed version. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Gary Higbee (ghigbee at efn.org) > (541)607-1818 > Solutions from the Land--solar, > wind, and hydro site analysis, design, > and installation > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From global at sover.net Tue May 2 19:38:07 2000 From: global at sover.net (Global Resources) Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 16:38:07 -0700 Subject: E-meter [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.265856759-212058698-957310687@topica.com> John: Sounds like sulfation, which can occur fast. This would capture some of the sulfur, not letting it go back into solution, resulting in the lower specific gravity readings. Two possible solutions, which MIGHT work. First is one or two strong and long equalizing charges. Second is an electronic battery desulfator. I only have experience with the CanPulse unit, which is more expensive than some, but which I know works. Jeff Jeffery D. Wolfe, P.E. Global Resource Options, LLP A Woman-Owned Vermont Limited Liability Partnership 4 Kibling Hill Road P.O. Box 51 Strafford, VT 05072 802/765-4632 802/765-9983 (Fax) global at sover.net www.GlobalResourceOptions.com ---------- From: cvsolar at aol.com[SMTP:cvsolar at aol.com] Reply To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 10:55 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: E-meter [RE-wrenches] Hi all, I am doing another experiment at my house (along with the humming DC250) to determine the negative aspects of an undersized battery bank. I have gone to manual generator start so I can play with the battery state of charge. I have 4 Trojan L16G batteries in a 24v bank feeding the SW4024. Loads vary from a base of 4 to 8 amps to a peak of 70 to 80 amps. Charge rate with my Yamaha 4600 is set at 60 amps. Because I have been hitting the batteries hard at both ends, I have noticed a deterioration in the batteries capacity (in only 4 weeks of usage) . I will get down to 80% on the e-meter and negative amp hours agree but my battery voltage is way down indicating less than 50% left. I fiddled with the Peukerts exponent setting and set it to 1.5 (the maximum) and it didn't seem to make any difference. Does the e-meter just lose it's ability to properly track the battery at high loads? Anyone had any experience with this. I saw a similar problem with one installed system with big loads and small battery bank. Unfortunately I did not have the e-meter on my old bank of 16 T105's that were worn out so I don't know what the indications of a failed battery would look like. These batteries charge to 28.8 without any trouble but they are having a fast voltage drop similar to my worn out T105's (though not as bad) The negative amp hours on my e-meter seem to be correct based on my loads. Battery specific gravity reading indicates batteries are not really fully charged after running the generator for two hours at 28.8v bulk absorption charge. Current drops off normally. Does this have something to do with the HUMMMMM? I'm confused! John Blittersdorf CVSolar - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solplex at montana.com Tue May 2 20:02:39 2000 From: solplex at montana.com (Mary Hamilton) Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 17:02:39 -0700 Subject: Hydro-Stream Engine [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.589733890-212058698-957293910@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.138021944-212058698-957312159@topica.com> Hi Gary. I have used the DC 48/24 volt converters on an ES&D turbine and it works well, but I'll let you dothe math of comparing the wire cost to the converters. The conmverters are $168 each in AEE catalog. I used Solar Converters DC Autotransformer. The DC Autotransformer handles 240 watts, so for your 28 amps it would take three, but they wire up nicely in parallel. Wire size at 48 volt instead of 24 comes down considerably, but the real payoff is on longer runs wih less power. The ES&D instructs says which wiring to use for 48 volt, then run the wire as 48, do the step down at the batteries, works slick. Lee Tavenner. Solar Plexus. Montana. The AC transformers would also work. The transformers need to be three phase and matched for the frequency. They run about $500. Usually best to do with the turbine being special wound for 120 volt to get the extra wire size reduction. - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ghigbee at efn.org Tue May 2 23:16:35 2000 From: ghigbee at efn.org (Gary Higbee, Solutions from the Land) Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 20:16:35 -0700 Subject: Hydro-Stream Engine [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.116269581-951758591-957299453@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1612227467-212058698-957323795@topica.com> Hi wrenches, Thanks so far for the excellent hydro input! I'll likely go with Bob-O's AL 4/0-4/0-2/0 wire. This sounds like a simple and most-economical solution for this particular installation. When I run into longer-run installations I'll keep the transformers and converters in mind. Bob-O, you asked what I meant about "low-head." In that case this is a previous 4-nozzle install with about 25 feet of head and a few hundred gpm. I'll play with both the air gap and the wiring, as you suggested. Interesting that "backing off" on the wiring configuration may yield more power (if I got that right). The installation I'm starting on (my own place, at long last) is 100 feet of head (which I'd call medium-head--it's relative, I know!)and I'll probably "borrow" 75-100gpm, with about 1300 feet of run. My impression is that this will likely about max out the Stream Engine anyway, so I'm hesitant to pay for big pipe (and am considering something like 1/3 4" and 2/3 3"--any comments?). What's the most power any of you have seen out of one of these (I've heard 700-800 watts, and then I see 1000 + on ES&D's web site). This does bring up another question. I see that the HP #76 "Microhydro Learning Experience" installation uses ABS pipe. Any comments about using the less expensive non-pressure-rated material, at least for the first part of a run. I've got 600 or so feet of run with only a few psi before a big drop. I'm considering using DWV pipe for this part of the run, and something like 160-class for the rest. Most of the pipe will be burried (and I wish I could rent a trencher locally that's wider than 4"!). Several of you are interested in my edited Stream Engine adjustment procedure. Well I'll throw it out there for those who are interested. I'm sure you'll come up with some additional edits. I'll post it in a couple days. Thanks!! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gary Higbee (ghigbee at efn.org) (541)607-1818 Solutions from the Land--solar, wind, and hydro site analysis, design, and installation ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunwise at win.bright.net Tue May 2 23:47:40 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (Kurt Nelson, SunWise) Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 20:47:40 -0700 Subject: SOC [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.406662767-951758591-957325660@topica.com> I'm finding this discussion about new battery preformance pretty interesting. I have had experience with new batteries that did not preform well. In conversations with Trojan, their tech sopke about "exersizing the plates", but I always wondered if such "exerscizing" might just be the manufacturer covering their butts. I have installed many new batteries that seemed to work well, "right out of the box". I even had one battery (880AH, 12V, T105) that I thought was wimpy from day one, that has been replaced and the "new owners" (recycle em), are really happy with their preformance (they abuse batteries). Could they have just broken them in? Prior to that they may have never been discharged below 50%, though they had seen EQ or regular high voltage states (15.4+, 12V bat.) Is it possible that not discharging a new battery deeply could actually "damage" the battery? I have often done a few EQ's on a new battery, but I have many systems that many never have seen much over a fifty percent discharge. Is this bad? Kurt Nelson - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Wed May 3 00:27:54 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (R. Sparks Scott) Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 21:27:54 -0700 Subject: Adjustment document [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1612227467-212058698-957323795@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.116269581-951758591-957299453@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.482710548-212058698-957328074@topica.com> Gary; Before you send out that Stream Engine adjustment procedure, consider this: we could turn it into a .pdf document and post it on my server, thereby preserving it for future wrenches, and saving the 'inbox' from clutter on everybody's computers. Not to call your paper "clutter", but you know what I mean. If you send it out to the general list, not everyone will use it, or even remember where to find it when they do need it. I'm kind of thinking about developing a 'resource center' corner for archiving tips, tricks, and schematic diagrams, etc. Yours could be the first submission. -S - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunwise at win.bright.net Wed May 3 09:44:56 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (Kurt Nelson, SunWise) Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 06:44:56 -0700 Subject: sockets [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1375349254-951758591-957361496@topica.com> Anyone know where compact flourscent bulb sockets can be purchased? A.E.E. used to carry the "S/E" socket for the regular twin tube, but now the only carry the D/E which is a more obscure bulb that they happen to sell. Thanks for any suggestions. Kurt - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From vtsolar1 at together.net Wed May 3 11:58:11 2000 From: vtsolar1 at together.net (Kirk Herander, VT Solar) Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 08:58:11 -0700 Subject: sockets [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1375349254-951758591-957361496@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1682650780-951758591-957369491@topica.com> Kurt, I may have some(5 - 10) lying around in offsite inventory. I'll take a look and get back to you by direct email. Kirk, Vt. Solar "Kurt Nelson, SunWise" wrote: > Anyone know where compact flourscent bulb sockets can be purchased? > A.E.E. used to carry the "S/E" socket for the regular twin tube, but now > the only carry the D/E which is a more obscure bulb that they happen to > sell. Thanks for any suggestions. Kurt > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From i2p at aol.com Wed May 3 14:17:14 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (Don Loweburg, Offline) Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 11:17:14 -0700 Subject: Leads for $$$ [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.695797649-212058698-957377834@topica.com> In a message dated 05/02/2000 1:52:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time, steve at backwoodssolar.com writes: << We are pretty much building the infra structure of solar installations now. But the future will bring many more aging systems already out there, especially when a home sells to a new owner, and there will be a big market for solar servicemen, kind of like the HVAC guys that do regular annual calls to inspect and upgrade furnaces etc. I think as we get more existing systems built out there in places where the owner will no more check the batteries and connections than clean his own furnace, there will be a whole specialty of regular service routes to call on and maintain systems for independent power customers. Comments? >> I agree with Steve. All of us in the business for very long know the value of customer good will and repeat buisness , both upgrades and service. Whats tough sometimes is the mailorder customer who needs local service. I think if they are not assholes then compassion will pay off and of course they should be willing to pay for our service. Don - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Wed May 3 21:04:47 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 18:04:47 -0700 Subject: Hydro-Stream Engine [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1612227467-212058698-957323795@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1393858781-212058698-957402287@topica.com> I hate to disagree with Bob-O, but I would not use aluminum underground to carry DC. We have had some where one conductor disappears after only 2 or 3 years. Pinhole punctures would be required to do that, but it happens. It may be worth extra to go copper (smaller gauge) or to put it in conduit. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems From: Gary Higbee, Solutions from the Land To: Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2000 8:16 PM Subject: RE: Hydro-Stream Engine [RE-wrenches] > Hi wrenches, > > Thanks so far for the excellent hydro input! I'll likely go with Bob-O's AL > 4/0-4/0-2/0 wire. This sounds like a simple and most-economical solution for > this particular installation. When I run into longer-run installations I'll > keep the transformers and converters in mind. > > Bob-O, you asked what I meant about "low-head." In that case this is a > previous 4-nozzle install with about 25 feet of head and a few hundred gpm. > I'll play with both the air gap and the wiring, as you suggested. > Interesting that "backing off" on the wiring configuration may yield more > power (if I got that right). > > The installation I'm starting on (my own place, at long last) is 100 feet of > head (which I'd call medium-head--it's relative, I know!)and I'll probably > "borrow" 75-100gpm, with about 1300 feet of run. My impression is that this > will likely about max out the Stream Engine anyway, so I'm hesitant to pay > for big pipe (and am considering something like 1/3 4" and 2/3 3"--any > comments?). What's the most power any of you have seen out of one of these > (I've heard 700-800 watts, and then I see 1000 + on ES&D's web site). > > This does bring up another question. I see that the HP #76 "Microhydro > Learning Experience" installation uses ABS pipe. Any comments about using > the less expensive non-pressure-rated material, at least for the first part > of a run. I've got 600 or so feet of run with only a few psi before a big > drop. I'm considering using DWV pipe for this part of the run, and something > like 160-class for the rest. Most of the pipe will be burried (and I wish I > could rent a trencher locally that's wider than 4"!). > > Several of you are interested in my edited Stream Engine adjustment > procedure. Well I'll throw it out there for those who are interested. I'm > sure you'll come up with some additional edits. I'll post it in a couple > days. > > Thanks!! > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Gary Higbee (ghigbee at efn.org) > (541)607-1818 > Solutions from the Land--solar, > wind, and hydro site analysis, design, > and installation > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Wed May 3 21:05:12 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 18:05:12 -0700 Subject: sockets [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1375349254-951758591-957361496@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1549331239-951758591-957402312@topica.com> Try Light It Technology, (406)683-9830 is a manufacturer of 12 volt fixtures using these bulbs, and has sockets. Not the most direct source, but he had them when I last asked. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems ----- Original Message ----- From: Kurt Nelson, SunWise To: Wrenches Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2000 6:44 AM Subject: sockets [RE-wrenches] > Anyone know where compact flourscent bulb sockets can be purchased? > A.E.E. used to carry the "S/E" socket for the regular twin tube, but now > the only carry the D/E which is a more obscure bulb that they happen to > sell. Thanks for any suggestions. Kurt > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From toddcory at jps.net Wed May 3 21:17:59 2000 From: toddcory at jps.net (Todd Cory, Bald Mt. Solar) Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 18:17:59 -0700 Subject: Hydro-Stream Engine [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1612227467-212058698-957323795@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1393858781-212058698-957402287@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.574670637-212058698-957403079@topica.com> I have also replaced quite a few buried runs of aluminum.... IMO it should not be buried. Overhead would probably be fine though. Todd Cory "Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar" wrote: > I hate to disagree with Bob-O, but I would not use aluminum underground to > carry DC. We have had some where one conductor disappears after only 2 or 3 > years. Pinhole punctures would be required to do that, but it happens. It > may be worth extra to go copper (smaller gauge) or to put it in conduit. > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From Solarwks at aol.com Thu May 4 00:29:32 2000 From: Solarwks at aol.com (Carl Hansen) Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 21:29:32 -0700 Subject: 24 volt PNLs [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2025112967-212058698-957414572@topica.com> Hello Kurt Ya Photowatt makes a 100 watt 12 & 24v PNL and Evergreen, a company from Ma. makes a 53 watt 24 volt PNL. I'm not sure how to get hold of the Evergreen units but I know Dankoff Solar and AAA Solar have the Photowatts. Carl Hansen - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From falk at investusa.net Thu May 4 02:58:18 2000 From: falk at investusa.net (Ken C. Falk, CCIM) Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 23:58:18 -0700 Subject: 24 volt PNLs [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.2025112967-212058698-957414572@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1094516394-951758591-957423498@topica.com> Kurt and Karl, I also am a Dealer for Photowatt and can offer their panels. Ken Falk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Hansen" To: Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2000 12:29 AM Subject: 24 volt PNLs [RE-wrenches] > > Hello Kurt > Ya Photowatt makes a 100 watt 12 & 24v PNL and Evergreen, a company from > Ma. makes a 53 watt 24 volt PNL. I'm not sure how to get hold of the > Evergreen units but I know Dankoff Solar and AAA Solar have the Photowatts. > Carl Hansen > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From econnect at snowcrest.net Fri May 5 10:57:28 2000 From: econnect at snowcrest.net (Bob-O Schultze, Electron Connection) Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 07:57:28 -0700 Subject: Hydro-Stream Engine [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.574670637-212058698-957403079@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1612227467-212058698-957323795@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1393858781-212058698-957402287@topica.com> <0.1300002502.574670637-212058698-957403079@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2034973055-951758591-957538648@topica.com> "Quite a few"??? I rather doubt that unless it was poorly done. In that case, CU would suffer the same fate eventually. There's no argument that copper wire is far superior to aluminium. The point here is the HUGE cost difference, not the fine points of the trade. Certainly AL requires some extra care with regard to oxidation, especially at the fittings. Two things: 1) there have been advances in the making of AL wire in the past five years. Both in the way they construct and twist the strands and in the insulation. 2) There are MILLIONS of homes and businesses today with 4/0-4/0-2/0 URD (and larger) as their power feed in wires. It is the wire of choice for that application. You can't argue with those numbers. The ac vs DC thing doesn't really apply. Good Luck, Bob-O >I have also replaced quite a few buried runs of aluminum.... IMO it >should not be buried. Overhead >would probably be fine though. > >Todd Cory > >"Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar" wrote: > > > I hate to disagree with Bob-O, but I would not use aluminum underground to > > carry DC. We have had some where one conductor disappears after >only 2 or 3 > > years. Pinhole punctures would be required to do that, but it happens. It > > may be worth extra to go copper (smaller gauge) or to put it in conduit. > > > Bob-O Schultze, Electron Connection PO Box 203, Hornbrook, CA 96044 800.945.7587 fax 530-475-3401 www.electronconnection.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Fri May 5 13:22:01 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 10:22:01 -0700 Subject: Hydro-Stream Engine [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1612227467-212058698-957323795@topica.com><0.1300002502.1393858781-212058698-957402287@topica.com><0.1300002502.574670637-212058698-957403079@topica.com> <0.1300002502.2034973055-951758591-957538648@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1109450227-212058698-957547321@topica.com> Corrosion (electroplating) happens much faster with single direction DC than with AC. Therefore a DC aluminum feedwire with a pinhole puncture in insulation will develop a spot that turns to a pile of white powder a lot faster than one carrying AC which reverses the [plating action aw much as it goes forward. Of course both will fail eventually. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob-O Schultze, Electron Connection To: Sent: Friday, May 05, 2000 7:57 AM Subject: Re: Hydro-Stream Engine [RE-wrenches] > "Quite a few"??? I rather doubt that unless it was poorly done. In > that case, CU would suffer the same fate eventually. > There's no argument that copper wire is far superior to aluminium. > The point here is the HUGE cost difference, not the fine points of > the trade. Certainly AL requires some extra care with regard to > oxidation, especially at the fittings. > Two things: > 1) there have been advances in the making of AL wire in the past five > years. Both in the way they construct and twist the strands and in > the insulation. > 2) There are MILLIONS of homes and businesses today with 4/0-4/0-2/0 > URD (and larger) as their power feed in wires. It is the wire of > choice for that application. You can't argue with those numbers. The > ac vs DC thing doesn't really apply. > Good Luck, Bob-O > > > > >I have also replaced quite a few buried runs of aluminum.... IMO it > >should not be buried. Overhead > >would probably be fine though. > > > >Todd Cory > > > >"Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar" wrote: > > > > > I hate to disagree with Bob-O, but I would not use aluminum underground to > > > carry DC. We have had some where one conductor disappears after > >only 2 or 3 > > > years. Pinhole punctures would be required to do that, but it happens. It > > > may be worth extra to go copper (smaller gauge) or to put it in conduit. > > > > > > > Bob-O Schultze, Electron Connection > PO Box 203, Hornbrook, CA 96044 > 800.945.7587 fax 530-475-3401 > www.electronconnection.com > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solar at eagle-access.net Sat May 6 13:32:37 2000 From: solar at eagle-access.net (Drake Chamberlin, Quicksilver Electrical) Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 10:32:37 -0700 Subject: Module Wiring RE LAB [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.744069513-212058698-956958659@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1214513824-212058698-957634357@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/mixed Size: 10283 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ellison at gisco.net Sat May 6 18:26:29 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison, Alternative Energy Systems) Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 15:26:29 -0700 Subject: Module Wiring RE LAB [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1214513824-212058698-957634357@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1361719524-212058698-957651989@topica.com> Your right I NEVER would have expected this answer. Now I am wondering how hot it has to get to reach the point where "cheese cloth singes". I wonder where this test came from? If you feed it 20 amps can you cook on it? Bob Ellison -----Original Message----- From: Drake Chamberlin, Quicksilver Electrical [mailto:solar at eagle-access.net] Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 1:33 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Re: Module Wiring RE LAB [RE-wrenches] << File: ATT00002.htm >> << File: ATT00005.htm >> Pat, It looks like we have the official word form Siemens concerning the fusing of series sets of modules. The answer may have been a bit different from what anyone suspected. According to Arthur Rudin, we can parallel 2 sets of Siemens SP 75s, and run the series - parallel set to a 15 amp fuse. Below is his reply. **************************************************************************** *************** Hi Drake, You are asking the right questions. The maximum series fuse rating indicated on the module rating label is a result of testing and not a calculation. The rating indicates the modules ability to tolerate reverse current without causing a fire (per UL). Current is fed into the module until the temperature reaches a point where cheese cloth singes. It is the maximum size fuse you can use. A smaller size is acceptable. For example, our SP 75 modules have a maximum series fuse rating of 15 amps. You can parallel two strings with a single fuse. This is acceptable per UL. Your suggested wiring configuration will work well. I hope this information helps. Best regards, Arthur **************************************************************************** *************** My next task is to find more about the test. What voltage did it take to force 15 amps backwards through the modules? Can the open circuit voltage from a nominal 24 volt series set really push enough reverse current through the modules to cook them? I seem to remember an old "Code Corner" in Home Power where Mr. Wiles indicated that it required a ground fault, on the wire that was used to series the modules, for this to be a problem. Does anyone remember this or which issue it was in? If we really can fry modules, we will certainly want to cover our liabilities (asses) by using the fuses. At least, now we can get by with half as many whips as we were using previously. Possibly we could use in line fuses, installed in J-boxes, as the supplementary overcurrent protection required for protection for the modules. . Thanks for "asking the right questions." Drake ----- Original Message ----- From: Pat Kiernan To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Sent: Friday, April 28, 2000 3:50 PM Subject: RE: Module Wiring [RE-wrenches] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Drake, Good point about the wires being cooler when the modules are cooler and output current is higher. I believe that the series overcurrent device requirement for each parallel string is a UL 1703 requirement (not NEC). For a Siemens SP75 the maximum fuse is 8 amps (4.8 x 1.25 x 1.25 = 7.5A). This value should be indicated on the module label. It sure would be nice to find some way to eliminate the series fuses. Thanks for your effort in pursuing this. Pat Re: RE Lab: Module Wiring [RE-wrenches]Hi Travis, We do need to multiply the module currents by 1.25 twice to get the code required current rating. I inserted the note from Siemens as it was written. The important thrust of the message to me was that we only need to follow code, that we don't need extra fuses in the system. Different sets of modules will, of course, require their own calculations. Here is an example that I believe is in compliance with both the NEC and Siemens requirements. Eight Siemens SP 75s wired in series-parallel for 24 volts, have a short circuit rating of 19.2 amps (4.8 X 4) . Multiply that times 1.25 twice (to comply with code) and you get 30 amps. A pair of number 10 THWN-2 wires should satisfy any inspector. (* Note: The rating of THWN-2 comes on many THHN conductors). An interesting point here is that if the modules are going to be so cold that they will produce enough extra current that the second 1.25 multiplication factor needs to be used, the wire will also be cold, and thus its current carrying capacity will be higher. What I understand from the message, from Arthur Rudin of Siemens, is that each series set does not require its own fuse. The old code seemed to require a fuse for each series set. The total series - parallel module configuration must be wired so that the code required calculations don't show more amperage than the wiring and fuses would be able to handle. Thanks for helping sort out this tangled issue. Drake RE Lab ----- Original Message ----- From: Travis Creswell To: RE-wre- at topica.com Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2000 7:07 PM Subject: Re: RE Lab: Module Wiring [RE-wrenches] -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Drake, What is the Siemens module rating for max series fuse and short circuit current? They must be rated quite differently than the modules that I am used to. Why do you only use 1.25 de-rate instead of1.56? See Table 690-7 Page 849 of the 1999 NEC Handbook. In areas where the temp can get to -5 F then you need to use 1.25 in addition to the 1.25 de-rate required in 690.8(a)(1). 1.25x.125=1.56 Some of the modules here at my shop are rated as follows Max Series Fuse Isc x 1.56 de-rate AP1206 10 Amps 7.7 12 US64 8 amps 5.1 7.96 BP585 8 Amps 5.0 7.8 (I think, they are on the roof and I don't feel like getting up there right now) >From the above numbers it looks like the Astro Power 120 has a problem but the ones I've installed over the last year have upped the max series fuse rating to 15 amps. What this means to me is that I can only series the above modules. We installed some Solarex MSX 60's recently and I think they had a max series fuse rating of 20 amps which I thought I was very high. Can someone check out a MSX60 and reply with that info? If you are allowed to use the 1.25 de-rate it still means that you can only parallel two modules. Are you implying that you can parallel as many modules as you want? In parallel, as I see it, you are forcing the downstream modules to pass the current from the upstream modules through them. Keep up the hard work on the research you are doing out there. Travis Creswell Ozark Solar ---------- From: Drake Chamberlin - Electrical Energy To: RE-wre- at topica.com Subject: RE Lab: Module Wiring [RE-wrenches] Date: Thu, Apr 27, 2000, 6:07 PM Hi Wrenches, I went through the Siemens Web site to get answers to the question of daisy chaining series strings of modules. It appears that there is no fuse required between the Series sets anymore. Below is the response from Arthur Rudin of Siemens concerning my question. **************************************************************************** ***************** Hi Drake, Sorry for the delay in this response. I have been travelling and did not have access to my e-mail. The NEC does require a fuse for each source circuit. Modules or strings can be wired in parallel as long as the total short circuit current x 1.25 does not exceed the series fuse rating of the module. This is explained in article 690 of the NEC and the NEC handbook. You can check your library for this information. Best regards, Arthur **************************************************************************** ************* Siemens apparently has no other requirement for their module wiring than the NEC specifications. So if Siemens is going to let us meet the Code requirements for module wiring, without using extra fuses between the series pairs, we are safe daisy chaining strings of Siemens modules, and then going to one overcurrent device. We can omit those pesky fuses between series strings of modules. There is no need for multiple whips to combiner boxes, with all the terminal strips, etc. This is the new Code, and it is a lot easier than the last. Drake RE Lab **************************************************************************** ******************* Pat Kiernan Eco Electric, Inc. PO Box 2389 Basalt, CO 81621-2389 tel/fax (970) 927-9270 e-mail: ecoelec at rof.net ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From econnect at snowcrest.net Tue May 16 21:04:07 2000 From: econnect at snowcrest.net (Bob-O Schultze, Electron Connection) Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 18:04:07 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Trace 4024 and MREF [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.624638940-951758591-958515230@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.624638940-951758591-958515230@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.488920544-212058698-958525447@topica.com> Tom & Richard, Just had a similar problem with a three year old 4024. Mine was not as catastrophic. Basically, Trace was using inferior fans for awhile. These fans would crap out after a time at 30VDC or so (like, an equalizing charge?) and the inverter would get seriously hot when being used as a charger. In my customer's case, it didn't take out the FETs, but cooked the firmware to the point where it was corrupted and doing a Low Batt shutdown even though the battery voltage was fine. Probably the thing that saved the FETs. Trace charged for the fix (although they were reasonable about it) because the machine was out of warranty. I too, had to pull a new machine out of stock to keep these older folks on line until Trace could turn it around. Now, like you, I have a used new inverter to try to sell. The only good parts here are that we can sleep well at night knowing we did the right thing by our customers and you have a war story to tell the next guy that whines because you won't meet the price of one of the bloodsucking deep discounters. Best, bob-O >Hello Wrenches > >Anyone got any feedback on this Trace SW4024 problem listed below? > >Richard > >>From: "Tom Elliot" >>To: "Richard Perez" >>Subject: Trace 4024 and MREF >>Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 15:09:00 -0600 >>X-Priority: 3 >> >>Richard, >> >>I just had an interesting experience with my original Trace 4024 that I >>thought I'd run by you. >> >>The unit failed one day with a heatsink overtemp condition in the battery >>charger fairly early in the charging cycle (apparently the earlier units >>were not as well protected from overtemping as the current units) that >>corrected itself within 15 minutes. The unit seemed to be producing power >>OK afterward but since it had failed during a charge cycle and gotten hot as >>hell in the process I sent it back in for a rebuild and upgrade. I was >>fortunate to have another unit in stock I could use in its place. >> >>When the tech called me to give me the price he told me an interesting story >>about the failure. It seems all 4 high end FETs had failed (he said the >>board was "obviously burned") and that had apparently contributed to the >>failure in the charger (though I'm not sure what the connection is there). >>When I asked him how that could happen he said that high voltage on the >>charger side could cause it and that generators could easily put out such >>high charges. >> >>It seemed strange to me that if it were such a common occurrence they >>wouldn't have protected the system from it but apparently the FETs are good >>to 200 volts. It turns out that when a generator runs out of gas (which is >>bound to happen sooner or later with all gas generators) the generator >>spikes the voltage to try to compensate. When that happens unregulated >>voltages of 200 + are easily possible. >> >>This was apparently when the FETs started to go but according to the tech it >>isn't a catastrophic failure but a cumulative one and there is no indication >>from the unit that such a failure is occurring. When I asked him what that >>does to the unit he said it basically causes the unit to cease being a sine >>wave and revert to modified square wave (I just can't bring myself to call >>it modified sinewave ). It also reduces the surge capacity but if no >>large loads were being run the reduced capacity would never be noticed. >> >>It strikes me as odd that the unit could undergo such a failure without any >>indication that it has happened and wonder if there aren't a lot of >>"sinewave" 4024s out there that are now acting as mod square wave units. >>The only way we noticed it was when the battery charger failed. >> >>I was wondering if you could do some checking on that and if you might want >>to warn some folks of the dangers of letting generators run out of gas. I >>have never seen any indication in any of the literature that it was >>something to watch out for and with such devastating results you'd think >>someone would make mention of it. >> >> >>Tom Elliot >>Guffey Energy Works >>Solar Energy Education >>http://www.wagonmaker.com > >------------------------------------ >Richard Perez >Home Power >PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA >Tele: 530-475-3179 >FAX: 530-475-0836 >Subscriptions: 800-707-6585 >mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com >Web: http://www.homepower.com >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: > >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > >To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >for info contact: >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics Bob-O Schultze, Electron Connection PO Box 203, Hornbrook, CA 96044 800.945.7587 fax 530-475-3401 www.electronconnection.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From powersense at horizon.co.fk Wed May 17 09:08:55 2000 From: powersense at horizon.co.fk (Clive Wilkins, PowerSense) Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 06:08:55 -0700 Subject: Trace fans/customers' gensets [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.624638940-951758591-958515230@topica.com> <0.1300002502.488920544-212058698-958525447@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.214305134-951758591-958568935@topica.com> Hi people had the same problem with a SW3048E, the inverter tripped, heat sink over temp, thank goodness that bit worked! Had an AC input/output board that had suffered high AC input voltage and was out of warranty. Used the fans off this one as replacements for the other one. Just cut the wires and rejoined. Am at a big disadvantage way down here in the South Atlantic, been trying to get service manuals etc out of Trace to make life easier but nothing yet. On another topic - have a customer whose genset went over voltage (about 280vac - we are nominal 230vac here) while charging. His SW4548E output voltage then went to 270vac and stayed there, damaging various household appliances - he is now claiming from me for three breadmakers, one microwave oven and a phone charger (which has already been replaced free by supplier). Indeed one of the breadmakers has also been replaced free of charge. He didn't tell me there was a problem until all these items had gone... What would you do about this? when the genset is the cause of the problem in the first place? He already owes me a large bill for repairs to this inverter. New control board, several visits (which means flights and overland for me). Only charged part of the true costs. Without manuals I am relying on Trace for advice and diagnosis. The question is, if a genset goes over-voltage for whatever reason, why does the inverter's output go to that level and stay there? with all the potential for damage to appliances. any comments? thanks Clive Clive Wilkinson PowerSense Falkland Islands powersense at horizon.co.fk http://www.falklandwool.com tel +500 42202 fax +500 42203 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From jackwest at alaska.net Thu May 18 03:42:00 2000 From: jackwest at alaska.net (Jack West, Talkeetna AE) Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 00:42:00 -0700 Subject: Trace fans/customers' gensets [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.624638940-951758591-958515230@topica.com> <0.1300002502.488920544-212058698-958525447@topica.com> <0.1300002502.214305134-951758591-958568935@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1747267075-212058698-958635720@topica.com> Clive, On the domestic SW's, the inverter disconnects from the genset if the voltage rises above a programmable set point (default 132 VAC). I've seen this happen on several occasions when large loads were turned on. The loaded leg would drop in voltage and the other leg would rise in voltage, keeping the leg to leg voltage constant. These problems stem from voltage regulation issues on the generator, not the inverter. Good luck Jack West - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From powersense at horizon.co.fk Thu May 18 11:24:25 2000 From: powersense at horizon.co.fk (Clive Wilkins, PowerSense) Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 08:24:25 -0700 Subject: genset/inverter [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1494763837-212058698-958663465@topica.com> Hi Jack thanks for the input. Have been trying to convince the customer of the fact that it is the genset at the root of the problem but he is not the easiest of people to talk to, inclined to hit first and talk after... His genset is a converted 3 phase to single phase, a "bargain buy" - I loathe these bargains... - it produces 110 on two phases, these are in series to produce 220vac. The set was supposed to have been checked out prior to my installation visit, by an approved electrician employed by the grant agency. cheers Clive Clive Wilkinson PowerSense Falkland Islands powersense at horizon.co.fk http://www.falklandwool.com tel +500 42202 fax +500 42203 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From bob at energyoutfitters.com Thu May 18 12:21:36 2000 From: bob at energyoutfitters.com (Bob Maynard, Energy Outfitters) Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 09:21:36 -0700 Subject: Module Wiring RE LAB [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: Hi Pat, I just spoke to Arthur Rudin regarding the labeling. He states that as of about a month ago, SP75's started leaving the factory with correct labels (15A), although I personally haven't seen any yet come through our warehouse. He further states that all SP75's are rated for 15A fuses, the old labeling is incorrect. Think you could convince an inspector? I couldn't. Bob Maynard Energy Outfitters 1-800-GO-SOLAR "Pat Kiernan, Eco Electric, Inc." wrote: > That's not what I would have expected at all. The last SP75s I installed > indicated a maximum series fuse of 8 amps. Anyone out there have any > labeled for 15 amps? > > Pat Kiernan > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bob Ellison, Alternative Energy Systems > To: > Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 4:26 PM > Subject: RE: Module Wiring RE LAB [RE-wrenches] > > > Your right I NEVER would have expected this answer. > > Now I am wondering how hot it has to get to reach the point where "cheese > > cloth singes". > > I wonder where this test came from? > > > > If you feed it 20 amps can you cook on it? > > > > Bob Ellison > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Drake Chamberlin, Quicksilver Electrical > > [mailto:solar at eagle-access.net] > > Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 1:33 PM > > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > > Subject: Re: Module Wiring RE LAB [RE-wrenches] > > > > << File: ATT00002.htm >> << File: ATT00005.htm >> Pat, > > > > It looks like we have the official word form Siemens concerning the > > fusing of series sets of modules. The answer may have been a bit > different > > from what anyone suspected. > > > > According to Arthur Rudin, we can parallel 2 sets of Siemens SP 75s, > and > > run the series - parallel set to a 15 amp fuse. Below is his reply. > > > > > **************************************************************************** > > *************** > > > > Hi Drake, > > You are asking the right questions. > > The maximum series fuse rating indicated on the module rating label is a > > result of testing and not a calculation. The rating indicates the modules > > ability to tolerate reverse current without causing a fire (per UL). > > Current is fed into the module until the temperature reaches a point where > > cheese cloth singes. It is the maximum size fuse you can use. A smaller > > size is acceptable. > > For example, our SP 75 modules have a maximum series fuse rating of 15 > amps. > > You can parallel two strings with a single fuse. This is acceptable per > UL. > > Your suggested wiring configuration will work well. > > I hope this information helps. > > > > Best regards, > > Arthur > > > > > **************************************************************************** > > *************** > > > > My next task is to find more about the test. What voltage did it take > > to force 15 amps backwards through the modules? Can the open circuit > > voltage from a nominal 24 volt series set really push enough reverse > current > > through the modules to cook them? > > > > I seem to remember an old "Code Corner" in Home Power where Mr. Wiles > > indicated that it required a ground fault, on the wire that was used to > > series the modules, for this to be a problem. Does anyone remember this > or > > which issue it was in? > > > > If we really can fry modules, we will certainly want to cover our > > liabilities (asses) by using the fuses. At least, now we can get by with > > half as many whips as we were using previously. Possibly we could use in > > line fuses, installed in J-boxes, as the supplementary overcurrent > > protection required for protection for the modules. . > > > > Thanks for "asking the right questions." > > > > Drake > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Pat Kiernan > > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > > Sent: Friday, April 28, 2000 3:50 PM > > Subject: RE: Module Wiring [RE-wrenches] > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > -- > > > > > > Drake, > > > > Good point about the wires being cooler when the modules are cooler and > > output current is higher. > > > > I believe that the series overcurrent device requirement for each > parallel > > string is a UL 1703 requirement (not NEC). For a Siemens SP75 the maximum > > fuse is 8 amps (4.8 x 1.25 x 1.25 = 7.5A). This value should be indicated > on > > the module label. > > > > It sure would be nice to find some way to eliminate the series fuses. > > Thanks for your effort in pursuing this. > > > > Pat > > > > > > > > > > > > Re: RE Lab: Module Wiring [RE-wrenches]Hi Travis, > > > > We do need to multiply the module currents by 1.25 twice to get the > > code required current rating. I inserted the note from Siemens as it was > > written. The important thrust of the message to me was that we only need > to > > follow code, that we don't need extra fuses in the system. > > > > Different sets of modules will, of course, require their own > calculations. > > Here is an example that I believe is in compliance with both the NEC and > > Siemens requirements. > > > > Eight Siemens SP 75s wired in series-parallel for 24 volts, have a short > > circuit rating of 19.2 amps (4.8 X 4) . Multiply that times 1.25 twice (to > > comply with code) and you get 30 amps. A pair of number 10 THWN-2 wires > > should satisfy any inspector. (* Note: The rating of THWN-2 comes on many > > THHN conductors). > > > > An interesting point here is that if the modules are going to be so cold > > that they will produce enough extra current that the second 1.25 > > multiplication factor needs to be used, the wire will also be cold, and > thus > > its current carrying capacity will be higher. > > > > What I understand from the message, from Arthur Rudin of Siemens, is > that > > each series set does not require its own fuse. The old code seemed to > > require a fuse for each series set. > > > > The total series - parallel module configuration must be wired so that > the > > code required calculations don't show more amperage than the wiring and > > fuses would be able to handle. > > > > Thanks for helping sort out this tangled issue. > > > > Drake > > RE Lab > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Travis Creswell > > To: RE-wre- at topica.com > > Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2000 7:07 PM > > Subject: Re: RE Lab: Module Wiring [RE-wrenches] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -- > > ---- > > > > > > Drake, > > > > What is the Siemens module rating for max series fuse and short circuit > > current? They must be rated quite differently than the modules that I am > > used to. > > > > Why do you only use 1.25 de-rate instead of1.56? > > See Table 690-7 Page 849 of the 1999 NEC Handbook. In areas where the > temp > > can get to -5 F then you need to use 1.25 in addition to the 1.25 de-rate > > required in 690.8(a)(1). 1.25x.125=1.56 > > > > Some of the modules here at my shop are rated as follows > > Max Series Fuse Isc x 1.56 de-rate > > AP1206 10 Amps 7.7 12 > > US64 8 amps 5.1 7.96 > > BP585 8 Amps 5.0 7.8 (I > > think, they are on the roof and I don't feel like getting up there right > > now) > > > > > > >From the above numbers it looks like the Astro Power 120 has a problem > > but the ones I've installed over the last year have upped the max series > > fuse rating to 15 amps. What this means to me is that I can only series > > the above modules. We installed some Solarex MSX 60's recently and I think > > they had a max series fuse rating of 20 amps which I thought I was very > > high. Can someone check out a MSX60 and reply with that info? > > > > If you are allowed to use the 1.25 de-rate it still means that you can > > only parallel two modules. Are you implying that you can parallel as many > > modules as you want? In parallel, as I see it, you are forcing the > > downstream modules to pass the current from the upstream modules through > > them. > > > > Keep up the hard work on the research you are doing out there. > > > > Travis Creswell > > Ozark Solar > > ---------- > > From: Drake Chamberlin - Electrical Energy > > To: RE-wre- at topica.com > > Subject: RE Lab: Module Wiring [RE-wrenches] > > Date: Thu, Apr 27, 2000, 6:07 PM > > > > > > > > Hi Wrenches, > > > > I went through the Siemens Web site to get answers to the question > of > > daisy chaining series strings of modules. It appears that there is no fuse > > required between the Series sets anymore. > > > > Below is the response from Arthur Rudin of Siemens concerning my > > question. > > > > > > > **************************************************************************** > > ***************** > > > > Hi Drake, > > Sorry for the delay in this response. I have been travelling and did > > not > > have access to my e-mail. The NEC does require a fuse for each > source > > circuit. Modules or strings can be wired in parallel as long as the > > total > > short circuit current x 1.25 does not exceed the series fuse rating > of > > the > > module. This is explained in article 690 of the NEC and the NEC > > handbook. > > You can check your library for this information. > > > > Best regards, > > Arthur > > > > > **************************************************************************** > > ************* > > Siemens apparently has no other requirement for their module wiring > > than the NEC specifications. > > > > So if Siemens is going to let us meet the Code requirements for > module > > wiring, without using extra fuses between the series pairs, we are safe > > daisy chaining strings of Siemens modules, and then going to one > overcurrent > > device. > > > > We can omit those pesky fuses between series strings of modules. > There > > is no need for multiple whips to combiner boxes, with all the terminal > > strips, etc. This is the new Code, and it is a lot easier than the last. > > > > > > > > > > Drake > > > > > RE > > Lab > > > > > > > **************************************************************************** > > ******************* > > > > Pat Kiernan > > Eco Electric, Inc. > > PO Box 2389 > > Basalt, CO 81621-2389 > > tel/fax (970) 927-9270 > > e-mail: ecoelec at rof.net > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > -- > > > > > > - - - - - - - > > To send a message to the list use: > > > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > > > > > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > > > > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > > > > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > > > for info contact: > > ___________________________________________________________ > > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > > > - - - - - - - > > To send a message to the list use: > > > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > > > > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > > > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > > > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > > > for info contact: > > ___________________________________________________________ > > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > > > > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solar at eagle-access.net Thu May 18 12:23:06 2000 From: solar at eagle-access.net (Drake Chamberlin, Quicksilver Electrical) Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 09:23:06 -0700 Subject: Module Wiring- reverse current [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: Here is some more correspondence with Siemens on the module wiring issue. ********************************************************************** ********************** Hi Arthur, Thanks much for your help. I have posted the overcurrent protection requirements on the Home Power RE Wrench list, so that other PV electricians may install modules properly. Is there any way we can learn the specifics of the test? What voltage was used to force sufficient reverse current through the modules to heat them past their limit? Can the open circuit voltage of a nominal 24 volt series set really cause that much heating in another 24 volt nominal series set? Under what conditions could this heating occur? Are the fuses protection against lightning induced surges? Thank you very much for your help in getting to the bottom of this. Sincerely, Drake Chamberlin ********************************************************************** ********************* Mr.Chamberlin, This e-mail is in response to your question to Arthur Rudin. You had requested more information on the Inverse Current Overload Test. I can tell you that when I conducted the test here, a power supply output of greater than 30 volts was necessary to force 15 Amps through the module in reverse bias. The primary reason for running the test is safety. A module with poor interconnections or faulty cells might pose a fire hazard when forced into reverse bias. Modules could be incorrectly wired, or a system energy storage fault, or a lightning strike as you pointed out could conceivably cause this to happen. Regards, Phil Capps - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: <http://www.topica.com/lists /RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send an email message to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to <>http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenche s/> Hosted by Home Power magazine: <>http://www.homepower.com> for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From jdailey at mtaonline.net Thu May 18 12:26:49 2000 From: jdailey at mtaonline.net (John Daily) Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 09:26:49 -0700 Subject: Job Referral To Wrench in Palmer,Alaska Area [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: Attention Anchorage area wrenches: I got a call today from a guy building his retirement dream home who has a bunch of BP panels, a SW Windpower 503, a Trace SW2512 and other miscelaneous stuff and wants an install. Sounds like he has the money for a professional job. It's too far away for me, but I said I'd look for someone closer for him. Please call me @ John Dailey Alaska Wind & Solar HC1 Box 3102A Healy, AK 99743 phone:907.683.2327 or 2200 fax: 708.535.4301 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solenergy at optinet.hn Thu May 18 12:31:04 2000 From: solenergy at optinet.hn (Ned van Steenwyk, Soluciones Energeticas) Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 09:31:04 -0700 Subject: Source for DEKA batteries [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: Maybe one of you could help me with this one. We have been using Trojan batteries exclusively over the past several years with our clients, but now the Ministry of Health here in Honduras is requesting DEKA sealed batteries for rural medical clinics. Can anyone give me a telephone number for a DEKA wholesale battery dealer in southeastern U.S.? Ned van Steenwyk Soluciones Energeticas Tegucigalpa, Honduras - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solenergy at optinet.hn Thu May 18 12:31:06 2000 From: solenergy at optinet.hn (Ned van Steenwyk, Soluciones Energeticas) Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 09:31:06 -0700 Subject: Source for DEKA batteries [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: Thank you Steve, appreciate the help. Ned At 08:10 PM 10/05/2000 -0700, you wrote: >Deka, purchased through East Penn Manufacturing, phone 610-682-4231, >www.eastpenn-deka.com and email at eastpenn at eastpenn-deka.com. > >Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Ned van Steenwyk, Soluciones Energeticas >To: >Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 3:50 PM >Subject: Re: Source for DEKA batteries [RE-wrenches] > > >> >> Maybe one of you could help me with this one. We have been using Trojan >> batteries exclusively over the past several years with our clients, but >now >> the Ministry of Health here in Honduras is requesting DEKA sealed >batteries >> for rural medical clinics. Can anyone give me a telephone number for a >> DEKA wholesale battery dealer in southeastern U.S.? >> >> Ned van Steenwyk >> Soluciones Energeticas >> Tegucigalpa, Honduras >> >> - - - - - - - >> To send a message to the list use: >> >> To view an archive of previous messages go to: >> >> To unsubscribe send an email message to: > >> >> To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > >> >> Hosted by Home Power magazine: >> >> for info contact: >> ___________________________________________________________ >> T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >> Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics >> >> > >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > >To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >for info contact: >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ecoelec at rof.net Thu May 18 12:31:08 2000 From: ecoelec at rof.net (Pat Kiernan, Eco Electric, Inc.) Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 09:31:08 -0700 Subject: Module Wiring RE LAB [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: That's not what I would have expected at all. The last SP75s I installed indicated a maximum series fuse of 8 amps. Anyone out there have any labeled for 15 amps? Pat Kiernan ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Ellison, Alternative Energy Systems To: Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 4:26 PM Subject: RE: Module Wiring RE LAB [RE-wrenches] > Your right I NEVER would have expected this answer. > Now I am wondering how hot it has to get to reach the point where "cheese > cloth singes". > I wonder where this test came from? > > If you feed it 20 amps can you cook on it? > > Bob Ellison > > -----Original Message----- > From: Drake Chamberlin, Quicksilver Electrical > [mailto:solar at eagle-access.net] > Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 1:33 PM > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Subject: Re: Module Wiring RE LAB [RE-wrenches] > > << File: ATT00002.htm >> << File: ATT00005.htm >> Pat, > > It looks like we have the official word form Siemens concerning the > fusing of series sets of modules. The answer may have been a bit different > from what anyone suspected. > > According to Arthur Rudin, we can parallel 2 sets of Siemens SP 75s, and > run the series - parallel set to a 15 amp fuse. Below is his reply. > > **************************************************************************** > *************** > > Hi Drake, > You are asking the right questions. > The maximum series fuse rating indicated on the module rating label is a > result of testing and not a calculation. The rating indicates the modules > ability to tolerate reverse current without causing a fire (per UL). > Current is fed into the module until the temperature reaches a point where > cheese cloth singes. It is the maximum size fuse you can use. A smaller > size is acceptable. > For example, our SP 75 modules have a maximum series fuse rating of 15 amps. > You can parallel two strings with a single fuse. This is acceptable per UL. > Your suggested wiring configuration will work well. > I hope this information helps. > > Best regards, > Arthur > > **************************************************************************** > *************** > > My next task is to find more about the test. What voltage did it take > to force 15 amps backwards through the modules? Can the open circuit > voltage from a nominal 24 volt series set really push enough reverse current > through the modules to cook them? > > I seem to remember an old "Code Corner" in Home Power where Mr. Wiles > indicated that it required a ground fault, on the wire that was used to > series the modules, for this to be a problem. Does anyone remember this or > which issue it was in? > > If we really can fry modules, we will certainly want to cover our > liabilities (asses) by using the fuses. At least, now we can get by with > half as many whips as we were using previously. Possibly we could use in > line fuses, installed in J-boxes, as the supplementary overcurrent > protection required for protection for the modules. . > > Thanks for "asking the right questions." > > Drake > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Pat Kiernan > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Sent: Friday, April 28, 2000 3:50 PM > Subject: RE: Module Wiring [RE-wrenches] > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > -- > > > Drake, > > Good point about the wires being cooler when the modules are cooler and > output current is higher. > > I believe that the series overcurrent device requirement for each parallel > string is a UL 1703 requirement (not NEC). For a Siemens SP75 the maximum > fuse is 8 amps (4.8 x 1.25 x 1.25 = 7.5A). This value should be indicated on > the module label. > > It sure would be nice to find some way to eliminate the series fuses. > Thanks for your effort in pursuing this. > > Pat > > > > > > Re: RE Lab: Module Wiring [RE-wrenches]Hi Travis, > > We do need to multiply the module currents by 1.25 twice to get the > code required current rating. I inserted the note from Siemens as it was > written. The important thrust of the message to me was that we only need to > follow code, that we don't need extra fuses in the system. > > Different sets of modules will, of course, require their own calculations. > Here is an example that I believe is in compliance with both the NEC and > Siemens requirements. > > Eight Siemens SP 75s wired in series-parallel for 24 volts, have a short > circuit rating of 19.2 amps (4.8 X 4) . Multiply that times 1.25 twice (to > comply with code) and you get 30 amps. A pair of number 10 THWN-2 wires > should satisfy any inspector. (* Note: The rating of THWN-2 comes on many > THHN conductors). > > An interesting point here is that if the modules are going to be so cold > that they will produce enough extra current that the second 1.25 > multiplication factor needs to be used, the wire will also be cold, and thus > its current carrying capacity will be higher. > > What I understand from the message, from Arthur Rudin of Siemens, is that > each series set does not require its own fuse. The old code seemed to > require a fuse for each series set. > > The total series - parallel module configuration must be wired so that the > code required calculations don't show more amperage than the wiring and > fuses would be able to handle. > > Thanks for helping sort out this tangled issue. > > Drake > RE Lab > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Travis Creswell > To: RE-wre- at topica.com > Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2000 7:07 PM > Subject: Re: RE Lab: Module Wiring [RE-wrenches] > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- > ---- > > > Drake, > > What is the Siemens module rating for max series fuse and short circuit > current? They must be rated quite differently than the modules that I am > used to. > > Why do you only use 1.25 de-rate instead of1.56? > See Table 690-7 Page 849 of the 1999 NEC Handbook. In areas where the temp > can get to -5 F then you need to use 1.25 in addition to the 1.25 de-rate > required in 690.8(a)(1). 1.25x.125=1.56 > > Some of the modules here at my shop are rated as follows > Max Series Fuse Isc x 1.56 de-rate > AP1206 10 Amps 7.7 12 > US64 8 amps 5.1 7.96 > BP585 8 Amps 5.0 7.8 (I > think, they are on the roof and I don't feel like getting up there right > now) > > > >From the above numbers it looks like the Astro Power 120 has a problem > but the ones I've installed over the last year have upped the max series > fuse rating to 15 amps. What this means to me is that I can only series > the above modules. We installed some Solarex MSX 60's recently and I think > they had a max series fuse rating of 20 amps which I thought I was very > high. Can someone check out a MSX60 and reply with that info? > > If you are allowed to use the 1.25 de-rate it still means that you can > only parallel two modules. Are you implying that you can parallel as many > modules as you want? In parallel, as I see it, you are forcing the > downstream modules to pass the current from the upstream modules through > them. > > Keep up the hard work on the research you are doing out there. > > Travis Creswell > Ozark Solar > ---------- > From: Drake Chamberlin - Electrical Energy > To: RE-wre- at topica.com > Subject: RE Lab: Module Wiring [RE-wrenches] > Date: Thu, Apr 27, 2000, 6:07 PM > > > > Hi Wrenches, > > I went through the Siemens Web site to get answers to the question of > daisy chaining series strings of modules. It appears that there is no fuse > required between the Series sets anymore. > > Below is the response from Arthur Rudin of Siemens concerning my > question. > > > **************************************************************************** > ***************** > > Hi Drake, > Sorry for the delay in this response. I have been travelling and did > not > have access to my e-mail. The NEC does require a fuse for each source > circuit. Modules or strings can be wired in parallel as long as the > total > short circuit current x 1.25 does not exceed the series fuse rating of > the > module. This is explained in article 690 of the NEC and the NEC > handbook. > You can check your library for this information. > > Best regards, > Arthur > > **************************************************************************** > ************* > Siemens apparently has no other requirement for their module wiring > than the NEC specifications. > > So if Siemens is going to let us meet the Code requirements for module > wiring, without using extra fuses between the series pairs, we are safe > daisy chaining strings of Siemens modules, and then going to one overcurrent > device. > > We can omit those pesky fuses between series strings of modules. There > is no need for multiple whips to combiner boxes, with all the terminal > strips, etc. This is the new Code, and it is a lot easier than the last. > > > > > Drake > > RE > Lab > > > **************************************************************************** > ******************* > > Pat Kiernan > Eco Electric, Inc. > PO Box 2389 > Basalt, CO 81621-2389 > tel/fax (970) 927-9270 > e-mail: ecoelec at rof.net > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > -- > > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From richard.perez at homepower.com Thu May 18 12:32:06 2000 From: richard.perez at homepower.com (Richard Perez, Home Power magazine) Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 09:32:06 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Trace 4024 and MREF [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: Hello Wrenches Anyone got any feedback on this Trace SW4024 problem listed below? Richard >From: "Tom Elliot" >To: "Richard Perez" >Subject: Trace 4024 and MREF >Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 15:09:00 -0600 >X-Priority: 3 > >Richard, > >I just had an interesting experience with my original Trace 4024 that I >thought I'd run by you. > >The unit failed one day with a heatsink overtemp condition in the battery >charger fairly early in the charging cycle (apparently the earlier units >were not as well protected from overtemping as the current units) that >corrected itself within 15 minutes. The unit seemed to be producing power >OK afterward but since it had failed during a charge cycle and gotten hot as >hell in the process I sent it back in for a rebuild and upgrade. I was >fortunate to have another unit in stock I could use in its place. > >When the tech called me to give me the price he told me an interesting story >about the failure. It seems all 4 high end FETs had failed (he said the >board was "obviously burned") and that had apparently contributed to the >failure in the charger (though I'm not sure what the connection is there). >When I asked him how that could happen he said that high voltage on the >charger side could cause it and that generators could easily put out such >high charges. > >It seemed strange to me that if it were such a common occurrence they >wouldn't have protected the system from it but apparently the FETs are good >to 200 volts. It turns out that when a generator runs out of gas (which is >bound to happen sooner or later with all gas generators) the generator >spikes the voltage to try to compensate. When that happens unregulated >voltages of 200 + are easily possible. > >This was apparently when the FETs started to go but according to the tech it >isn't a catastrophic failure but a cumulative one and there is no indication >from the unit that such a failure is occurring. When I asked him what that >does to the unit he said it basically causes the unit to cease being a sine >wave and revert to modified square wave (I just can't bring myself to call >it modified sinewave ). It also reduces the surge capacity but if no >large loads were being run the reduced capacity would never be noticed. > >It strikes me as odd that the unit could undergo such a failure without any >indication that it has happened and wonder if there aren't a lot of >"sinewave" 4024s out there that are now acting as mod square wave units. >The only way we noticed it was when the battery charger failed. > >I was wondering if you could do some checking on that and if you might want >to warn some folks of the dangers of letting generators run out of gas. I >have never seen any indication in any of the literature that it was >something to watch out for and with such devastating results you'd think >someone would make mention of it. > > >Tom Elliot >Guffey Energy Works >Solar Energy Education >http://www.wagonmaker.com ------------------------------------ Richard Perez Home Power PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA Tele: 530-475-3179 FAX: 530-475-0836 Subscriptions: 800-707-6585 mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com Web: http://www.homepower.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Thu May 18 12:33:38 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 09:33:38 -0700 Subject: Source for DEKA batteries [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: Deka, purchased through East Penn Manufacturing, phone 610-682-4231, www.eastpenn-deka.com and email at eastpenn at eastpenn-deka.com. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Ned van Steenwyk, Soluciones Energeticas To: Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 3:50 PM Subject: Re: Source for DEKA batteries [RE-wrenches] > > Maybe one of you could help me with this one. We have been using Trojan > batteries exclusively over the past several years with our clients, but now > the Ministry of Health here in Honduras is requesting DEKA sealed batteries > for rural medical clinics. Can anyone give me a telephone number for a > DEKA wholesale battery dealer in southeastern U.S.? > > Ned van Steenwyk > Soluciones Energeticas > Tegucigalpa, Honduras > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ellison at gisco.net Thu May 18 17:06:48 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison, Alternative Energy Systems) Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 14:06:48 -0700 Subject: RIP Whisper [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.965830723-212058698-958684008@topica.com> Anybody heard that new owners of WPT have discontinued the H500, H1500 and the 3000! They MIGHT re-introduce the 3000 in September but don't know for sure. This bites Bob - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sales at dankoffsolar.com Thu May 18 17:52:26 2000 From: sales at dankoffsolar.com (Kim Bowker, Dankoff solar) Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 14:52:26 -0700 Subject: RIP Whisper [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.965830723-212058698-958684008@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.965830723-212058698-958684008@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2027423180-951758591-958686746@topica.com> Hello Bob & wrenches, Actually they discontinued the 80 which is the 2 bladed 1000 watter. The H1500 was discontinued about one year ago. They are re-examining the 175 to see if they can re-engineer it to run as a three bladed machine. I think it is too bad to see the H20 go (especially since the only reason for its demise is that SWWP thinks it "competes" with the Windseeker) but I would love to see the 175 as a three bladed machine. >Anybody heard that new owners of WPT have discontinued the H500, H1500 and >the 3000! They MIGHT re-introduce the 3000 in September but don't know for >sure. This bites > >Bob > >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: > >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > >To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >for info contact: >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics Kim Bowker Dankoff Solar Products, Inc. Wholesale distributor of solar-electric equipment Manufacturer & distributor of solar water pumps 2810 Industrial Rd. Santa Fe, NM 87505 (505) 473-3800 FAX 473-3830 E-mail: pumps at dankoffsolar.com http://www.dankoffsolar.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From richard.perez at homepower.com Thu May 18 19:05:44 2000 From: richard.perez at homepower.com (Richard Perez, Home Power magazine) Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 16:05:44 -0700 Subject: RIP Whisper [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.965830723-212058698-958684008@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.965830723-212058698-958684008@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1724759894-951758591-958691144@topica.com> Wrenches World Power just got bought out by Southwest Windpower, so all bets are off.... Richard >Anybody heard that new owners of WPT have discontinued the H500, H1500 and >the 3000! They MIGHT re-introduce the 3000 in September but don't know for >sure. This bites > >Bob ------------------------------------ Richard Perez Home Power PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA Tele: 530-475-3179 FAX: 530-475-0836 Subscriptions: 800-707-6585 mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com Web: http://www.homepower.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From michael.welch at homepower.com Mon May 29 13:24:26 2000 From: michael.welch at homepower.com (Michael Welch, Home Power) Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 10:24:26 -0700 Subject: Kyocera referal service [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.986881280-951758591-959621066@topica.com> Thought you all might be interested in this, haven't checked it out yet. From SolarAccess.com RE-news - - - - - - - Kyocera Solar, Inc., has announced the launch of its Web-based solar electric professional referral service. Solarelectricrepair.com is a free, automatic referral service linking the end-use customer with a nationwide network of experts supported by Kyocera Solar, Inc. SolarAccess.com supports Kyorcera's new endeavor to link end-users with professional dealer/installers to assure consumers of high quality system design and performance. For more information about the new service please visit: Michael Welch ------------------------ "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." Edward Abbey Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com Associate Editor, Home Power magazine Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From jay at asis.com Mon May 29 21:32:54 2000 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 18:32:54 -0700 Subject: Kyocera referal service [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.986881280-951758591-959621066@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1662914121-212058698-959650374@topica.com> Hi Michael, I have looked at it, but I don't know how well they are "referring". It looks good to me. thanks for the update, jay "Michael Welch, Home Power" wrote: > Thought you all might be interested in this, haven't checked it out yet. From SolarAccess.com RE-news > > - - - - - - - > > Kyocera Solar, Inc., has announced the launch of its Web-based solar > electric professional referral service. Solarelectricrepair.com is a free, > automatic referral service linking the end-use customer with a nationwide > network of experts supported by Kyocera Solar, Inc. SolarAccess.com > supports Kyorcera's new endeavor to link end-users with professional > dealer/installers to assure consumers of high quality system design and > performance. > > For more information about the new service please visit: > > > Michael Welch > > ------------------------ > "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." > > Edward Abbey > > Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com > Associate Editor, Home Power magazine > Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance > (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 > > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Thu Jun 1 21:02:41 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 18:02:41 -0700 Subject: Generator Fuel Rules of Thumb [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1974154703-212058698-959907761@topica.com> Wrenches, I have forgotten and can't seem to find anything (but I haven't looked very hard yet) about generator fuel usage. Does anyone have any numbers on gallons/hp/hr or gallons/kW/hr? Diesel and/or Propane? I have a customers spec. sheet on a Propane Kohler 11RMY that gives 99cfh at full load. It includes the conversion factor of gal/hr=cfh/154.3. The math says .64 gallons per hour but I thinking that is low. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks Travis Creswell Ozark Solar Neosho, Missouri - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From i2p at aol.com Thu Jun 1 22:02:53 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (Don Loweburg, Offline) Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 19:02:53 -0700 Subject: Generator Fuel Rules of Thumb [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1050458827-951758591-959911373@topica.com> In a message dated 06/01/2000 6:02:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ozsolar at ipa.net writes: << I have a customers spec. sheet on a Propane Kohler 11RMY that gives 99cfh at full load. It includes the conversion factor of gal/hr=cfh/154.3. The math says .64 gallons per hour but I thinking that is low. >> I think it is a little low. Maybe somewhere around a gal per hour for a genset that size. Don Loweburg - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From microhydro at dplus.net Thu Jun 1 22:57:52 2000 From: microhydro at dplus.net (Ron Macleod) Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 19:57:52 -0700 Subject: Generator Fuel Rules of Thumb [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1050458827-951758591-959911373@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.327106901-951758591-959914672@topica.com> Hi Travis - I'm not sure on the #s either - for years we ran a 5 horse Duetz Deisel at 2.5 kw - as I recall we generated at full load 2 hours a day and used one gallon of fuel a day - Deisel has a lot more stored energy than propane - I'll bet the manufacturers have all the specs. - Best Ron - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From wstahle at slonet.org Fri Jun 2 02:55:57 2000 From: wstahle at slonet.org (Wallace Stahle, Future Elec. Energy Co.) Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 23:55:57 -0700 Subject: PV at Burning Man ? [RE-wrenches] References: <39242B34.9AACC3E6@cstone.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.558649608-951758591-959928957@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/mixed Size: 3110 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ezra at lasqueti.net Fri Jun 2 10:13:57 2000 From: ezra at lasqueti.net (Ezra Auerbach, Trace Engineering) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 07:13:57 -0700 Subject: Generator Fuel Rules of Thumb [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1974154703-212058698-959907761@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1718621131-951758591-959955237@topica.com> Hi, My inefficient Honda 3.5 kW uses about 3/4 of a gallon per hour. I think that an awful lot of the fuel economy of a generator is dependent of the operating rpm. The older diesels tend to run at 1200-1800 and are quieter, more durable, and fuel efficient. The screamers, 3600 rpm, tend to be cheaper up front but they tend to use more fuel per kWh. Ezra Auerbach Lasqueti Island, BC "Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar" wrote: > Wrenches, > > I have forgotten and can't seem to find anything (but I haven't looked very > hard yet) about generator fuel usage. Does anyone have any numbers on > gallons/hp/hr or gallons/kW/hr? Diesel and/or Propane? > > I have a customers spec. sheet on a Propane Kohler 11RMY that gives > 99cfh at full load. It includes the conversion factor of gal/hr=cfh/154.3. > The math says .64 gallons per hour but I thinking that is low. > > Any help would be appreciated. > > Thanks > Travis Creswell > Ozark Solar > Neosho, Missouri > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From microhydro at dplus.net Fri Jun 2 10:34:13 2000 From: microhydro at dplus.net (Ron Macleod) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 07:34:13 -0700 Subject: Generator Fuel Rules of Thumb [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1974154703-212058698-959907761@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1718621131-951758591-959955237@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.986482397-212058698-959956453@topica.com> Guys - My #s on fuel and output were wrong - we charged at 35 amps - 2hrs - 70 amp houts a day at around 145 volts - say 140 avg. - 4900 watts - one gallon of fuel a day - deisel - Best Ron I guess it was a 10 hp Duetz - yeah - that's what it was! - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Fri Jun 2 12:54:30 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 09:54:30 -0700 Subject: Generator Fuel Rules of Thumb [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1974154703-212058698-959907761@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.416324970-951758591-959964870@topica.com> We sell 10 RY, larger engine low rpm, but I believe the power usage at 75% load would be about twice what you figured. The 154.3 cu ft per gallon looks wrong, wasn't it somewhere around 45? I can't find my notes either. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems A catalog business on a mountain 2 miles from utility lines, powered entirely by our catalog products. IF UTILITY POWER IS 1/2 MILE OR MORE FROM YOUR SITE, get our free 160 page solar-electric Planning Guide/Catalog. (Your postal address required - Our list is never given or sold). Phone(208)263-4290 Fax (208) 265-4788 in Idaho, USA ----- Original Message ----- From: Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar To: RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 6:02 PM Subject: Generator Fuel Rules of Thumb [RE-wrenches] > Wrenches, > > I have forgotten and can't seem to find anything (but I haven't looked very > hard yet) about generator fuel usage. Does anyone have any numbers on > gallons/hp/hr or gallons/kW/hr? Diesel and/or Propane? > > I have a customers spec. sheet on a Propane Kohler 11RMY that gives > 99cfh at full load. It includes the conversion factor of gal/hr=cfh/154.3. > The math says .64 gallons per hour but I thinking that is low. > > Any help would be appreciated. > > Thanks > Travis Creswell > Ozark Solar > Neosho, Missouri > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ezra at lasqueti.net Fri Jun 2 13:07:19 2000 From: ezra at lasqueti.net (Ezra Auerbach, Trace Engineering) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 10:07:19 -0700 Subject: Generator Fuel Rules of Thumb [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1974154703-212058698-959907761@topica.com> <0.1300002502.416324970-951758591-959964870@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.685173215-212058698-959965639@topica.com> Clearly 153 cu ft per gallon is not correct or a gallon would be 1' square and 154' tall or round about the size of 5.7 cu' yards of concrete. 154.3 cu " is a tad more likely that would make a bit larger than a cubic foot which more or less is the size of a gallon of liquid Ezra "Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar" wrote: > We sell 10 RY, larger engine low rpm, but I believe the power usage at 75% > load would be about twice what you figured. The 154.3 cu ft per gallon > looks wrong, wasn't it somewhere around 45? I can't find my notes either. > > Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com > Backwoods Solar Electric Systems > A catalog business on a mountain > 2 miles from utility lines, > powered entirely by our catalog products. > IF UTILITY POWER IS 1/2 MILE OR MORE FROM YOUR SITE, > get our free 160 page solar-electric Planning Guide/Catalog. > (Your postal address required - Our list is never given or sold). > Phone(208)263-4290 Fax (208) 265-4788 in Idaho, USA > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar > To: RE-wrenches > Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 6:02 PM > Subject: Generator Fuel Rules of Thumb [RE-wrenches] > > > Wrenches, > > > > I have forgotten and can't seem to find anything (but I haven't looked > very > > hard yet) about generator fuel usage. Does anyone have any numbers on > > gallons/hp/hr or gallons/kW/hr? Diesel and/or Propane? > > > > I have a customers spec. sheet on a Propane Kohler 11RMY that gives > > 99cfh at full load. It includes the conversion factor of gal/hr=cfh/154.3. > > The math says .64 gallons per hour but I thinking that is low. > > > > Any help would be appreciated. > > > > Thanks > > Travis Creswell > > Ozark Solar > > Neosho, Missouri > > - - - - - - - > > To send a message to the list use: > > > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > > > > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > > > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > > > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > > > for info contact: > > ___________________________________________________________ > > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > > > > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From michael.welch at homepower.com Fri Jun 2 15:26:39 2000 From: michael.welch at homepower.com (Michael Welch, Home Power) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 12:26:39 -0700 Subject: PV at Burning Man ? [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.558649608-951758591-959928957@topica.com> References: <39242B34.9AACC3E6@cstone.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.992392136-951758591-959973999@topica.com> Wallace Stahle, Future Elec. Energy Co. wrote at 11:55 PM 6/1/2000 -0700: >Howdy Wrenches, > >This may be off topic but some of you may be a good match for the request below, >and it otherwise is interesting to see the opportunitys for PV in the emerging >culture. Of which the Burning Man festival is a significant and eccentric >aspect. If you don't know of burning man checkout burningman.com For sure, Wally, this one is way too off-topic for this list. Michael Welch ------------------------ "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." Edward Abbey Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com Associate Editor, Home Power magazine Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Fri Jun 2 15:34:55 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (R. Sparks Scott) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 12:34:55 -0700 Subject: Generator Fuel Rules of Thumb [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.685173215-212058698-959965639@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1974154703-212058698-959907761@topica.com> <0.1300002502.416324970-951758591-959964870@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.985825623-951758591-959974495@topica.com> At 10:07 AM 6/2/00 -0700, you wrote: >Clearly 153 cu ft per gallon is not correct or a gallon would be 1' square and 154' tall or round Ezra; I think you are confusing liquid volume and gas volume. Engines consume gas vapor. Liquid propane (and butane) are evaporated into gas before being introduced into an internal combustion engine. Each gallon of propane when evaporated into vapor yeilds 153 cubic feet of gas when allowed to expand to atmospheric abmient pressure. This is why propane is such an attractive fuel, it is very condensed power in a fairly stable and easily handled form. -S - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Fri Jun 2 18:00:49 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 15:00:49 -0700 Subject: Generator Fuel Rules of Thumb [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1974154703-212058698-959907761@topica.com> <0.1300002502.416324970-951758591-959964870@topica.com> <0.1300002502.685173215-212058698-959965639@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2125319634-212058698-959983249@topica.com> Ezra: Sorry, while I don't have the exact translation figure for propane at hand, I cannot agree with that at all. First they are talking about cubic feet of gas released at about 1/2 pound usability pressure from a gallon of liquid propane. Second, a liquid cubic foot of water or anything else is by volume about 8 gallons. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems A catalog business on a mountain 2 miles from utility lines, powered entirely by our catalog products. IF UTILITY POWER IS 1/2 MILE OR MORE FROM YOUR SITE, get our free 160 page solar-electric Planning Guide/Catalog. (Your postal address required - Our list is never given or sold). Phone(208)263-4290 Fax (208) 265-4788 in Idaho, USA ----- Original Message ----- From: Ezra Auerbach, Trace Engineering To: Sent: Friday, June 02, 2000 10:07 AM Subject: Re: Generator Fuel Rules of Thumb [RE-wrenches] > Clearly 153 cu ft per gallon is not correct or a gallon would be 1' square and 154' tall or round > about the size of 5.7 cu' yards of concrete. 154.3 cu " is a tad more likely that would make a bit > larger than a cubic foot which more or less is the size of a gallon of liquid > > Ezra > > "Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar" wrote: > > > We sell 10 RY, larger engine low rpm, but I believe the power usage at 75% > > load would be about twice what you figured. The 154.3 cu ft per gallon > > looks wrong, wasn't it somewhere around 45? I can't find my notes either. > > > > Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com > > Backwoods Solar Electric Systems > > A catalog business on a mountain > > 2 miles from utility lines, > > powered entirely by our catalog products. > > IF UTILITY POWER IS 1/2 MILE OR MORE FROM YOUR SITE, > > get our free 160 page solar-electric Planning Guide/Catalog. > > (Your postal address required - Our list is never given or sold). > > Phone(208)263-4290 Fax (208) 265-4788 in Idaho, USA > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar > > To: RE-wrenches > > Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 6:02 PM > > Subject: Generator Fuel Rules of Thumb [RE-wrenches] > > > > > Wrenches, > > > > > > I have forgotten and can't seem to find anything (but I haven't looked > > very > > > hard yet) about generator fuel usage. Does anyone have any numbers on > > > gallons/hp/hr or gallons/kW/hr? Diesel and/or Propane? > > > > > > I have a customers spec. sheet on a Propane Kohler 11RMY that gives > > > 99cfh at full load. It includes the conversion factor of gal/hr=cfh/154.3. > > > The math says .64 gallons per hour but I thinking that is low. > > > > > > Any help would be appreciated. > > > > > > Thanks > > > Travis Creswell > > > Ozark Solar > > > Neosho, Missouri > > > - - - - - - - > > > To send a message to the list use: > > > > > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > > > > > > > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > > > > > > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > > > > > > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > > > > > for info contact: > > > ___________________________________________________________ > > > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > > > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > > > > > > > > > - - - - - - - > > To send a message to the list use: > > > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > > > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > > > for info contact: > > ___________________________________________________________ > > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ezra at lasqueti.net Fri Jun 2 18:35:08 2000 From: ezra at lasqueti.net (Ezra Auerbach, Trace Engineering) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 15:35:08 -0700 Subject: Generator Fuel Rules of Thumb [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1974154703-212058698-959907761@topica.com> <0.1300002502.416324970-951758591-959964870@topica.com> <0.1300002502.985825623-951758591-959974495@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.75052201-212058698-959985308@topica.com> ok "R. Sparks Scott" wrote: > At 10:07 AM 6/2/00 -0700, you wrote: > >Clearly 153 cu ft per gallon is not correct or a gallon would be 1' square > and 154' tall or round > > Ezra; > > I think you are confusing liquid volume and gas volume. Engines consume > gas vapor. Liquid propane (and butane) are evaporated into gas before being > introduced into an internal combustion engine. Each gallon of propane when > evaporated into vapor yeilds 153 cubic feet of gas when allowed to expand > to atmospheric abmient pressure. This is why propane is such an attractive > fuel, it is very condensed power in a fairly stable and easily handled form. > > -S > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From michael.welch at homepower.com Fri Jun 2 18:39:05 2000 From: michael.welch at homepower.com (Michael Welch, Home Power) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 15:39:05 -0700 Subject: PV at Burning Man ? [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.558649608-951758591-959928957@topica.com> References: <39242B34.9AACC3E6@cstone.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2111643742-212058698-959985545@topica.com> My apologies to Wally and the list. Certainly, the effort to get RE generation at Burning Man (can't they burn a woman next year?) is worthwhile and a very acceptable topic for the list. My apologies for not reading as well as I should have. Michael Welch ------------------------ "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." Edward Abbey Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com Associate Editor, Home Power magazine Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Fri Jun 2 18:44:26 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 15:44:26 -0700 Subject: PV at Burning Man ? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1629931604-951758591-959985866@topica.com> Michael, Too little, Too late, you're fired! Travis Creswell ---------- >From: "Michael Welch, Home Power" >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Subject: Re: PV at Burning Man ? [RE-wrenches] >Date: Fri, Jun 2, 2000, 5:39 PM > >My apologies to Wally and the list. Certainly, the effort to get RE >generation at Burning Man (can't they burn a woman next year?) is >worthwhile and a very acceptable topic for the list. > >My apologies for not reading as well as I should have. > >Michael Welch > >------------------------ >"Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of >scum on top." > > Edward Abbey > >Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com > Associate Editor, Home Power magazine > Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance > (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 > >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Sat Jun 3 10:01:24 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 07:01:24 -0700 Subject: Gen. Fuel Rules of Thumb 2 [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.402149192-212058698-960040884@topica.com> Gang, Found my old "Pocket Reference" It says 231 Cu. Inches per US liquid gallon .13368 Cu. Ft pr liquid gallon kW = 3409.5 BTU's 1 HP = .746 kW Horsepower hour = ~2550 Btu's So a 16 hp motor is going need around 40,800 BTU's/hour ??? If we add in a 30% eff factor for Internal Combustion engines that takes us to a more realistic 136,000 Btu's hr. My local propane supplier tells me @60F 91,690 BTU's per gallon of propane 21,591 BTU's/lb 2,516 BTU's Cu. Ft A 16 hp motor will produce 12.3 kW (16x.746). Although I have seen several 20 hp motors on 10 kW generators. 136,000 BTU's/91,690 BTU's in a gallon of propane = 1.48 gallons per hour. Travis Creswell Ozark Solar - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Sat Jun 3 10:36:54 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 07:36:54 -0700 Subject: Solar Powered Gate Openers [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1306870842-951758591-960043014@topica.com> Gang, Any body got any suggestions for solar powered gate openers. I have found some stuff on the Mighty Mule. It looks pretty slick. It seems to mount to the gate you are wanting to open. It already is operated as a low voltage device and has a battery back up ("doesn't require a electrician") standard. They also offer a solar charging option. Anyone had a bad experience with this brand. It all I can find that suits my purpose. Thanks Travis Creswell - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cpae1 at aol.com Sat Jun 3 22:03:27 2000 From: cpae1 at aol.com (Frank Fowler, Crystal Pines Alt. Energy ) Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 19:03:27 -0700 Subject: Solar Powered Gate Openers [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.340300639-951758591-960084207@topica.com> Hello Travis; I have sold and installed many of these Mighty Mule's, and they are the cat's meow. Have'nt had any problems at all with them. Frank Fowler Crystal Pines Alternative Energy cpae1 at aol.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From microhydro at dplus.net Sat Jun 3 23:46:09 2000 From: microhydro at dplus.net (Ron Macleod) Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 20:46:09 -0700 Subject: Wrenches Sign in Page [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.340300639-951758591-960084207@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1063928202-212058698-960090369@topica.com> Sharkey - Please post the address for your Wrenches Front Page again - My computer crashed - I lost it all! - Thanks Ron - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Sun Jun 4 01:06:59 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (R. Sparks Scott) Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 22:06:59 -0700 Subject: Wrenches Sign in Page [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1063928202-212058698-960090369@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.340300639-951758591-960084207@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1886345749-951758591-960095219@topica.com> > Please post the address for your Wrenches Front Page again - My >computer crashed - I lost it all! - Thanks Ron Dang, I hate that! Although the URL for the wrenches Profile Front page is contained in the footer of each message, it never hurts to advertise, so I'll post it again here: -S - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Sun Jun 4 10:18:06 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 07:18:06 -0700 Subject: Solar Powered Gate Openers [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1306870842-951758591-960043014@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1288246564-951758591-960128286@topica.com> We have sold mighty mule for years. Its the lightest duty available, and often requires adding a larger battery and PV in northern areas if used heavily. The locking pin option is useful if people might try to force the unit. These are available retail or 15% off wholesale from us, or go to the factory direct GTO at ph 850-575-0176. They make a heavier duty, called Patriot, available through Amazing Gates www.amazinggates.com. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems A catalog business on a mountain 2 miles from utility lines, powered entirely by our catalog products. IF UTILITY POWER IS 1/2 MILE OR MORE FROM YOUR SITE, get our free 160 page solar-electric Planning Guide/Catalog. (Your postal address required - Our list is never given or sold). Phone(208)263-4290 Fax (208) 265-4788 in Idaho, USA ----- Original Message ----- From: Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar To: RE-wrenches Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2000 7:36 AM Subject: Solar Powered Gate Openers [RE-wrenches] > Gang, > > Any body got any suggestions for solar powered gate openers. > > I have found some stuff on the Mighty Mule. It looks pretty slick. It > seems to mount to the gate you are wanting to open. It already is operated > as a low voltage device and has a battery back up ("doesn't require a > electrician") standard. They also offer a solar charging option. > > Anyone had a bad experience with this brand. It all I can find that suits > my purpose. > > Thanks > Travis Creswell > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Sun Jun 4 10:19:32 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 07:19:32 -0700 Subject: Solar Powered Gate Openers [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1306870842-951758591-960043014@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.152238536-951758591-960128372@topica.com> also another place has a solar gate: Automatic Gate supply Company, in Calif: 800-423-3090. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems A catalog business on a mountain 2 miles from utility lines, powered entirely by our catalog products. IF UTILITY POWER IS 1/2 MILE OR MORE FROM YOUR SITE, get our free 160 page solar-electric Planning Guide/Catalog. (Your postal address required - Our list is never given or sold). Phone(208)263-4290 Fax (208) 265-4788 in Idaho, USA ----- Original Message ----- From: Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar To: RE-wrenches Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2000 7:36 AM Subject: Solar Powered Gate Openers [RE-wrenches] > Gang, > > Any body got any suggestions for solar powered gate openers. > > I have found some stuff on the Mighty Mule. It looks pretty slick. It > seems to mount to the gate you are wanting to open. It already is operated > as a low voltage device and has a battery back up ("doesn't require a > electrician") standard. They also offer a solar charging option. > > Anyone had a bad experience with this brand. It all I can find that suits > my purpose. > > Thanks > Travis Creswell > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Mon Jun 5 08:12:02 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 05:12:02 -0700 Subject: Solar Powered Gate Openers [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1270696636-951758591-960207122@topica.com> Steve & Frank, Thanks for your quick replies. I am here in Southern MO. What (Inches) size of solar panel does it come with. My potential customer is very concerned about a "big ugly panel." It show it as a $129 option so it can't be that big but I'm guessing it's amorphous which means it will be a little bigger. This is going to be a residence so I am not expecting a lot of cycles per day. Thanks Again, Travis Creswell Ozark Solar ---------- >From: "Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar" >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Subject: Re: Solar Powered Gate Openers [RE-wrenches] >Date: Sun, Jun 4, 2000, 9:18 AM > >We have sold mighty mule for years. Its the lightest duty available, and >often requires adding a larger battery and PV in northern areas if used >heavily. The locking pin option is useful if people might try to force the >unit. >These are available retail or 15% off wholesale from us, or go to the >factory direct GTO at ph 850-575-0176. > >They make a heavier duty, called Patriot, available through Amazing Gates >www.amazinggates.com. > >Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com >Backwoods Solar Electric Systems >A catalog business on a mountain >2 miles from utility lines, >powered entirely by our catalog products. >IF UTILITY POWER IS 1/2 MILE OR MORE FROM YOUR SITE, >get our free 160 page solar-electric Planning Guide/Catalog. >(Your postal address required - Our list is never given or sold). >Phone(208)263-4290 Fax (208) 265-4788 in Idaho, USA > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar >To: RE-wrenches >Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2000 7:36 AM >Subject: Solar Powered Gate Openers [RE-wrenches] > > >> Gang, >> >> Any body got any suggestions for solar powered gate openers. >> >> I have found some stuff on the Mighty Mule. It looks pretty slick. It >> seems to mount to the gate you are wanting to open. It already is >operated >> as a low voltage device and has a battery back up ("doesn't require a >> electrician") standard. They also offer a solar charging option. >> >> Anyone had a bad experience with this brand. It all I can find that suits >> my purpose. >> >> Thanks >> Travis Creswell >> - - - - - - - >> To send a message to the list use: >> >> To view an archive of previous messages go to: >> >> To unsubscribe send an email message to: > >> >> To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > >> >> Hosted by Home Power magazine: >> >> for info contact: >> ___________________________________________________________ >> T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >> Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics >> >> > >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: > >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > >To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >for info contact: >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cpae1 at aol.com Mon Jun 5 10:52:43 2000 From: cpae1 at aol.com (Frank Fowler, Crystal Pines Alt. Energy ) Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 07:52:43 -0700 Subject: Solar Powered Gate Openers [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1741409631-212058698-960216763@topica.com> Hello Travis; I believe it has a solar option module of 5 watts, but I use a Siemens SM-10 which is about 14"x13'x1.5 in size. You get more power for charging that way, and the price is close. If you use the SM-10, you will have to fabricate your own mount though. Good Luck, Frank Fowler, Crystal Pines Alternative Energy. - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cpae1 at aol.com Mon Jun 5 10:56:39 2000 From: cpae1 at aol.com (Frank Fowler, Crystal Pines Alt. Energy ) Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 07:56:39 -0700 Subject: Solar Powered Gate Openers [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1252622805-212058698-960216999@topica.com> Travis, I mistakenly wrote 13 feet on one of the measurements of the SM-10. It's actually 13 inches. OOPS! Frank. - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From michael.welch at homepower.com Mon Jun 5 13:56:01 2000 From: michael.welch at homepower.com (Michael Welch, Home Power) Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 10:56:01 -0700 Subject: Solar Powered Gate Openers [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1270696636-951758591-960207122@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1666248081-951758591-960227761@topica.com> Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar wrote at 05:12 AM 6/5/2000 -0700: >Thanks for your quick replies. I am here in Southern MO. What (Inches) >size of solar panel does it come with. My potential customer is very >concerned about a "big ugly panel." It show it as a $129 option so it can't >be that big but I'm guessing it's amorphous which means it will be a little >bigger. This is going to be a residence so I am not expecting a lot of >cycles per day. This is worth discussing further on this list. Most of us on solar are proud of our solar panels and take every opportunity to show them off. The attitude of folks that think they are ugly is something I think dealers can and should work on. How do we instill a sense of pride for folks that are just dipping their feet into the realm of solar? Hell, if they really wanted good-looking they wouldn't have put up that fence in the first place! Michael Welch ------------------------ "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." Edward Abbey Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com Associate Editor, Home Power magazine Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From global at sover.net Mon Jun 5 18:25:22 2000 From: global at sover.net (Jeffrey Wolfe, Global Resources) Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 15:25:22 -0700 Subject: PV Aesthetics [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.834655711-212058698-960243922@topica.com> Michael, As engineers, we tend to think of solar panels as great looking, and as energy activists, we tend to think that looks don't matter. But as sales people and marketers, we need to understand that aesthetics can often make or break the sale. It is pretty useless to try to convince someone that anything they think is ugly is actually beautiful. Time is better spent figuring out a different way to solve the problem, different colored panels, mounting them farther away, etc. Often, aesthetics cost money, but people are actually more willing to pay for aesthetics than they are solar. This is best evidenced in the infant BIPV market. My understanding is that most installations happen because the architect involved likes the look, and oh by the way these things also produce power. So working with this will help to create more sales. This doesn't mean that all architects will like all solar panels on all buildings, but that we need to work with individual needs to craft something likeable to each client from our available pieces. I did this for many years as an HVAC engineer working with quite a few fancy architects. Each one needed the HVAC systems exposed pieces dealt with differently. Although this was more work, it made the aesthetics acceptable. So we can't just go out and proclaim solar panels to be beautiful. We need to figure out what the client wants in terms of aesthetics (as well as power) and mold our components to the needs. Showing diverse installations that fit into a variety of molds will do a lot to expand the market. Jeff Jeffery D. Wolfe, P.E. Principal Global Resource Options, LLP A Woman-Owned Limited Liability Partnership 4 Kibling Hill Road P.O. Box 51 Strafford, Vermont 05072 802/765-4632 802/765-9983 FAX global at sover.net ---------- From: Michael Welch, Home Power[SMTP:michael.welch at homepower.com] Reply To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 1:56 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Re: Solar Powered Gate Openers [RE-wrenches] Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar wrote at 05:12 AM 6/5/2000 -0700: >Thanks for your quick replies. I am here in Southern MO. What (Inches) >size of solar panel does it come with. My potential customer is very >concerned about a "big ugly panel." It show it as a $129 option so it can't >be that big but I'm guessing it's amorphous which means it will be a little >bigger. This is going to be a residence so I am not expecting a lot of >cycles per day. This is worth discussing further on this list. Most of us on solar are proud of our solar panels and take every opportunity to show them off. The attitude of folks that think they are ugly is something I think dealers can and should work on. How do we instill a sense of pride for folks that are just dipping their feet into the realm of solar? Hell, if they really wanted good-looking they wouldn't have put up that fence in the first place! Michael Welch ------------------------ "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." Edward Abbey Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com Associate Editor, Home Power magazine Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Mon Jun 5 22:00:54 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 19:00:54 -0700 Subject: PV Aesthetics [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.834655711-212058698-960243922@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1003056744-951758591-960256854@topica.com> As for aesthetics and building integrated, I would rather educate the customer about the function, so they can begin to see what we see. Otherwise you get shingle panels on a fixed tilt roof under the snow, and these vertical panels on the side of skyscrapers. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems > As engineers, we tend to think of solar panels as great looking, and as > energy activists, we tend to think that looks don't matter. But as sales > people and marketers, we need to understand that aesthetics can often make > or break the sale. It is pretty useless to try to convince someone that > anything they think is ugly is actually beautiful. Time is better spent > figuring out a different way to solve the problem, different colored > panels, mounting them farther away, etc. Often, aesthetics cost money, but > people are actually more willing to pay for aesthetics than they are solar. > > This is best evidenced in the infant BIPV market. My understanding is that > most installations happen because the architect involved likes the look, > and oh by the way these things also produce power. So working with this > will help to create more sales. This doesn't mean that all architects will > like all solar panels on all buildings, but that we need to work with > individual needs to craft something likeable to each client from our > available pieces. I did this for many years as an HVAC engineer working > with quite a few fancy architects. Each one needed the HVAC systems exposed > pieces dealt with differently. Although this was more work, it made the > aesthetics acceptable. > > So we can't just go out and proclaim solar panels to be beautiful. We need > to figure out what the client wants in terms of aesthetics (as well as > power) and mold our components to the needs. Showing diverse installations > that fit into a variety of molds will do a lot to expand the market. > > Jeff > > Jeffery D. Wolfe, P.E. > Principal > Global Resource Options, LLP > A Woman-Owned Limited Liability Partnership > 4 Kibling Hill Road > P.O. Box 51 > Strafford, Vermont 05072 > 802/765-4632 > 802/765-9983 FAX > global at sover.net > > ---------- > From: Michael Welch, Home Power[SMTP:michael.welch at homepower.com] > Reply To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 1:56 PM > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Subject: Re: Solar Powered Gate Openers [RE-wrenches] > > Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar wrote at 05:12 AM 6/5/2000 -0700: > > >Thanks for your quick replies. I am here in Southern MO. What (Inches) > >size of solar panel does it come with. My potential customer is very > >concerned about a "big ugly panel." It show it as a $129 option so it > can't > >be that big but I'm guessing it's amorphous which means it will be a > little > >bigger. This is going to be a residence so I am not expecting a lot of > >cycles per day. > > This is worth discussing further on this list. Most of us on solar are > proud of our solar panels and take every opportunity to show them off. The > attitude of folks that think they are ugly is something I think dealers can > and should work on. > > How do we instill a sense of pride for folks that are just dipping their > feet into the realm of solar? Hell, if they really wanted good-looking they > wouldn't have put up that fence in the first place! > > Michael Welch > > ------------------------ > "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of > scum on top." > > Edward Abbey > > Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com > Associate Editor, Home Power magazine > Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance > (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 > > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solar at eagle-access.net Mon Jun 5 23:27:13 2000 From: solar at eagle-access.net (Drake Chamberlin, Quicksilver Electrical) Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 20:27:13 -0700 Subject: PV Aesthetics [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.834655711-212058698-960243922@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1003056744-951758591-960256854@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1438633305-212058698-960262033@topica.com> Solar Panels are BEAUTIFUL! Drake "Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar" wrote: > As for aesthetics and building integrated, I would rather educate the > customer about the function, so they can begin to see what we see. > Otherwise you get shingle panels on a fixed tilt roof under the snow, and > these vertical panels on the side of skyscrapers. > > Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com > Backwoods Solar Electric Systems > > As engineers, we tend to think of solar panels as great looking, and as > > energy activists, we tend to think that looks don't matter. But as sales > > people and marketers, we need to understand that aesthetics can often make > > or break the sale. It is pretty useless to try to convince someone that > > anything they think is ugly is actually beautiful. Time is better spent > > figuring out a different way to solve the problem, different colored > > panels, mounting them farther away, etc. Often, aesthetics cost money, but > > people are actually more willing to pay for aesthetics than they are > solar. > > > > This is best evidenced in the infant BIPV market. My understanding is that > > most installations happen because the architect involved likes the look, > > and oh by the way these things also produce power. So working with this > > will help to create more sales. This doesn't mean that all architects will > > like all solar panels on all buildings, but that we need to work with > > individual needs to craft something likeable to each client from our > > available pieces. I did this for many years as an HVAC engineer working > > with quite a few fancy architects. Each one needed the HVAC systems > exposed > > pieces dealt with differently. Although this was more work, it made the > > aesthetics acceptable. > > > > So we can't just go out and proclaim solar panels to be beautiful. We need > > to figure out what the client wants in terms of aesthetics (as well as > > power) and mold our components to the needs. Showing diverse installations > > that fit into a variety of molds will do a lot to expand the market. > > > > Jeff > > > > Jeffery D. Wolfe, P.E. > > Principal > > Global Resource Options, LLP > > A Woman-Owned Limited Liability Partnership > > 4 Kibling Hill Road > > P.O. Box 51 > > Strafford, Vermont 05072 > > 802/765-4632 > > 802/765-9983 FAX > > global at sover.net > > > > ---------- > > From: Michael Welch, Home Power[SMTP:michael.welch at homepower.com] > > Reply To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > > Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 1:56 PM > > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > > Subject: Re: Solar Powered Gate Openers [RE-wrenches] > > > > Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar wrote at 05:12 AM 6/5/2000 -0700: > > > > >Thanks for your quick replies. I am here in Southern MO. What (Inches) > > >size of solar panel does it come with. My potential customer is very > > >concerned about a "big ugly panel." It show it as a $129 option so it > > can't > > >be that big but I'm guessing it's amorphous which means it will be a > > little > > >bigger. This is going to be a residence so I am not expecting a lot of > > >cycles per day. > > > > This is worth discussing further on this list. Most of us on solar are > > proud of our solar panels and take every opportunity to show them off. The > > attitude of folks that think they are ugly is something I think dealers > can > > and should work on. > > > > How do we instill a sense of pride for folks that are just dipping their > > feet into the realm of solar? Hell, if they really wanted good-looking > they > > wouldn't have put up that fence in the first place! > > > > Michael Welch > > > > ------------------------ > > "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of > > scum on top." > > > > Edward Abbey > > > > Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com > > Associate Editor, Home Power magazine > > Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance > > (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 > > > > > > - - - - - - - > > To send a message to the list use: > > > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > > > > > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > > > > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > > > > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > > > for info contact: > > ___________________________________________________________ > > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > > > - - - - - - - > > To send a message to the list use: > > > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > > > > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > > > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > > > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > > > for info contact: > > ___________________________________________________________ > > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > > > > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From global at sover.net Mon Jun 5 23:29:40 2000 From: global at sover.net (Jeffrey Wolfe, Global Resources) Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 20:29:40 -0700 Subject: PV Aesthetics [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1092926436-951758591-960262180@topica.com> True, but fixed shingles (which I hate due to the thousand connections) are not under snow at all in most of the country, and are only under snow for a relatively low percentage of time even in Vermont. Wall mounted panels can provide 70% or more of the energy of a properly tilted panel. Our choice is not doing it right or doing it wrong. It's doing it or not doing it. If I can get 15kW on the side of a building that only produces 10.5 kW, but that runs through a 94% efficient inverter without any battery losses and with MPPT, haven't we got a system that's almost as efficient as your average seasonally adjusted array that feeds a battery bank? And more importantly, haven't we got 10 kW of green power we did not have, and the associated awareness of power needs and consumption by a few more people? The average person will never see what we see. Even when the sky is falling, there perception will be totally different from ours. Marketing is working with these perceptions, not drastically changing them. Depressing, I know. But if the goal is to get more solar out there, and create a larger percentage of our power from renewables, then we need to work with it. Sorry, this isn't very Wrench related, and I wont post more on this unless others are interested. Jeff Jeffery D. Wolfe, P.E. Principal Global Resource Options, LLP A Woman-Owned Limited Liability Partnership 4 Kibling Hill Road P.O. Box 51 Strafford, Vermont 05072 802/765-4632 802/765-9983 FAX global at sover.net www.globalresourceoptions.com ---------- From: Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar[SMTP:steve at backwoodssolar.com] Reply To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 10:00 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Re: PV Aesthetics [RE-wrenches] As for aesthetics and building integrated, I would rather educate the customer about the function, so they can begin to see what we see. Otherwise you get shingle panels on a fixed tilt roof under the snow, and these vertical panels on the side of skyscrapers. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems > As engineers, we tend to think of solar panels as great looking, and as > energy activists, we tend to think that looks don't matter. But as sales > people and marketers, we need to understand that aesthetics can often make > or break the sale. It is pretty useless to try to convince someone that > anything they think is ugly is actually beautiful. Time is better spent > figuring out a different way to solve the problem, different colored > panels, mounting them farther away, etc. Often, aesthetics cost money, but > people are actually more willing to pay for aesthetics than they are solar. > > This is best evidenced in the infant BIPV market. My understanding is that > most installations happen because the architect involved likes the look, > and oh by the way these things also produce power. So working with this > will help to create more sales. This doesn't mean that all architects will > like all solar panels on all buildings, but that we need to work with > individual needs to craft something likeable to each client from our > available pieces. I did this for many years as an HVAC engineer working > with quite a few fancy architects. Each one needed the HVAC systems exposed > pieces dealt with differently. Although this was more work, it made the > aesthetics acceptable. > > So we can't just go out and proclaim solar panels to be beautiful. We need > to figure out what the client wants in terms of aesthetics (as well as > power) and mold our components to the needs. Showing diverse installations > that fit into a variety of molds will do a lot to expand the market. > > Jeff > > Jeffery D. Wolfe, P.E. > Principal > Global Resource Options, LLP > A Woman-Owned Limited Liability Partnership > 4 Kibling Hill Road > P.O. Box 51 > Strafford, Vermont 05072 > 802/765-4632 > 802/765-9983 FAX > global at sover.net > > ---------- > From: Michael Welch, Home Power[SMTP:michael.welch at homepower.com] > Reply To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 1:56 PM > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Subject: Re: Solar Powered Gate Openers [RE-wrenches] > > Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar wrote at 05:12 AM 6/5/2000 -0700: > > >Thanks for your quick replies. I am here in Southern MO. What (Inches) > >size of solar panel does it come with. My potential customer is very > >concerned about a "big ugly panel." It show it as a $129 option so it > can't > >be that big but I'm guessing it's amorphous which means it will be a > little > >bigger. This is going to be a residence so I am not expecting a lot of > >cycles per day. > > This is worth discussing further on this list. Most of us on solar are > proud of our solar panels and take every opportunity to show them off. The > attitude of folks that think they are ugly is something I think dealers can > and should work on. > > How do we instill a sense of pride for folks that are just dipping their > feet into the realm of solar? Hell, if they really wanted good-looking they > wouldn't have put up that fence in the first place! > > Michael Welch > > ------------------------ > "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of > scum on top." > > Edward Abbey > > Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com > Associate Editor, Home Power magazine > Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance > (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 > > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Tue Jun 6 00:12:59 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (R. Sparks Scott) Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 21:12:59 -0700 Subject: Solar Powered Can Openers [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1741409631-212058698-960216763@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.474557305-212058698-960264779@topica.com> List; OK, I gotta say something here. While it seems this list is used sort of like a chat room, an sometimes drifts to the sides of it's intended purpose, I keep reading it becuase it's interesting. HOWEVER.....is it *really* necessary to include the full text of each and every message we reply to??? Sometimes this ends up being a forward of a forward of a forward. The last three posts totalled 36 Kilobytes. After I edited out the forwarded text, they totalled 4 Kb. Yeah, yeah, I know, shut up and get a larger hard drive.... I just find it difficult to have to pore through all of the forwarded text to see if there is something new in each message, *as well as* all of the extra space it takes up when the messages are added to all of the other mail I recieve. Right now my 'inbox' is holding almost 2Mb of messages. Michael, I'd like to hear form you on this subject, maybe I'm the only complainer who'd rather not get the full text time and time again? -S - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cpae1 at aol.com Tue Jun 6 00:47:02 2000 From: cpae1 at aol.com (Frank Fowler, Crystal Pines Alt. Energy ) Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 21:47:02 -0700 Subject: PV Aesthetics [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2144321508-212058698-960266822@topica.com> I agree with Jeff to a certain extent, but I think Drake hit the nail on the head. "PANELS ARE BEAUTIFUL" Frank Fowler, Crystal Pines Alternative Energy - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From toddcory at jps.net Tue Jun 6 09:30:44 2000 From: toddcory at jps.net (Todd Cory, Bald Mt. Solar) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 06:30:44 -0700 Subject: PV Aesthetics [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.2144321508-212058698-960266822@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2009113407-951758591-960298244@topica.com> I have one customer that HATED the sight of the (what I thought were nice looking) Solarex MSX 60 watt blue colored panels. She did NOT want to see them from her home, so the only acceptable location was behind some trees... which blocked about 40% of the sunlight available to them. I think I have her convinced to top the worst tree now which would still provide a visual screen, but not shade the array for so much of the day. We had many "form over function" discussions, but ultimately it was her system and up to her to spend that kind of money on green power only to shoot herself in the foot with the shading. I think it boils down to the fact that some people just have different priorities, and that has been a valuable lesson for me. Todd -- Todd Cory KE6SXS toddcory at jps.net Bald Mountain Solar P.O. Box 689 Mt. Shasta, Ca. 96067 (530) 926-1079 We can throw stones, complain about them, stumble on them, climb over them, or build with them. - William Arthur Ward - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunpwr at jps.net Tue Jun 6 10:21:33 2000 From: sunpwr at jps.net (Chuck Heath, SunPower) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 07:21:33 -0700 Subject: Generator Fuel Rules of Thumb [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1755313957-212058698-960301293@topica.com> On 6/2/00, Steve Willey said... >We sell 10 RY, larger engine low rpm, but I believe the power usage at 75% >load would be about twice what you figured. The 154.3 cu ft per gallon >looks wrong, wasn't it somewhere around 45? According to the Kohler spec sheet, a 10RY operating at 60 Hz. consumes LPG cfh at % load: 100% 68 75% 54 50% 44 25% 35 My notes from other sources also say to convert LPG cu. ft. per hour to gallons per hour, divide by 154.3. Hope this helps. Cordially, Chuck - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solarbeacon at email.msn.com Tue Jun 6 10:55:47 2000 From: solarbeacon at email.msn.com (Bill Roush, Solar Electric Systems) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 07:55:47 -0700 Subject: PV Aesthetics [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1092926436-951758591-960262180@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2083522501-951758591-960303347@topica.com> Would anyone join me for an egroup (or topica) on solar marketing ? There seems to be a demand for it on this wrenches list. Best, Bill Roush Solar Electric Systems of Kansas City, Inc. 13700 W. 108th St. Lenexa, KS 66215 913-338-1939 800-632-9751 913-469-5522fax solarbeacon at email.msn.com www.solarbeacon.com -----Original Message----- From: Jeffrey Wolfe, Global Resources [mailto:global at sover.net] Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 10:30 PM To: 'RE-wrenches at topica.com' Subject: RE: PV Aesthetics [RE-wrenches] True, but fixed shingles (which I hate due to the thousand connections) are not under snow at all in most of the country, and are only under snow for a relatively low percentage of time even in Vermont. Wall mounted panels can provide 70% or more of the energy of a properly tilted panel. Our choice is not doing it right or doing it wrong. It's doing it or not doing it. If I can get 15kW on the side of a building that only produces 10.5 kW, but that runs through a 94% efficient inverter without any battery losses and with MPPT, haven't we got a system that's almost as efficient as your average seasonally adjusted array that feeds a battery bank? And more importantly, haven't we got 10 kW of green power we did not have, and the associated awareness of power needs and consumption by a few more people? The average person will never see what we see. Even when the sky is falling, there perception will be totally different from ours. Marketing is working with these perceptions, not drastically changing them. Depressing, I know. But if the goal is to get more solar out there, and create a larger percentage of our power from renewables, then we need to work with it. Sorry, this isn't very Wrench related, and I wont post more on this unless others are interested. Jeff Jeffery D. Wolfe, P.E. Principal Global Resource Options, LLP A Woman-Owned Limited Liability Partnership 4 Kibling Hill Road P.O. Box 51 Strafford, Vermont 05072 802/765-4632 802/765-9983 FAX global at sover.net www.globalresourceoptions.com ---------- From: Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar[SMTP:steve at backwoodssolar.com] Reply To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 10:00 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Re: PV Aesthetics [RE-wrenches] As for aesthetics and building integrated, I would rather educate the customer about the function, so they can begin to see what we see. Otherwise you get shingle panels on a fixed tilt roof under the snow, and these vertical panels on the side of skyscrapers. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems > As engineers, we tend to think of solar panels as great looking, and as > energy activists, we tend to think that looks don't matter. But as sales > people and marketers, we need to understand that aesthetics can often make > or break the sale. It is pretty useless to try to convince someone that > anything they think is ugly is actually beautiful. Time is better spent > figuring out a different way to solve the problem, different colored > panels, mounting them farther away, etc. Often, aesthetics cost money, but > people are actually more willing to pay for aesthetics than they are solar. > > This is best evidenced in the infant BIPV market. My understanding is that > most installations happen because the architect involved likes the look, > and oh by the way these things also produce power. So working with this > will help to create more sales. This doesn't mean that all architects will > like all solar panels on all buildings, but that we need to work with > individual needs to craft something likeable to each client from our > available pieces. I did this for many years as an HVAC engineer working > with quite a few fancy architects. Each one needed the HVAC systems exposed > pieces dealt with differently. Although this was more work, it made the > aesthetics acceptable. > > So we can't just go out and proclaim solar panels to be beautiful. We need > to figure out what the client wants in terms of aesthetics (as well as > power) and mold our components to the needs. Showing diverse installations > that fit into a variety of molds will do a lot to expand the market. > > Jeff > > Jeffery D. Wolfe, P.E. > Principal > Global Resource Options, LLP > A Woman-Owned Limited Liability Partnership > 4 Kibling Hill Road > P.O. Box 51 > Strafford, Vermont 05072 > 802/765-4632 > 802/765-9983 FAX > global at sover.net > > ---------- > From: Michael Welch, Home Power[SMTP:michael.welch at homepower.com] > Reply To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 1:56 PM > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Subject: Re: Solar Powered Gate Openers [RE-wrenches] > > Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar wrote at 05:12 AM 6/5/2000 -0700: > > >Thanks for your quick replies. I am here in Southern MO. What (Inches) > >size of solar panel does it come with. My potential customer is very > >concerned about a "big ugly panel." It show it as a $129 option so it > can't > >be that big but I'm guessing it's amorphous which means it will be a > little > >bigger. This is going to be a residence so I am not expecting a lot of > >cycles per day. > > This is worth discussing further on this list. Most of us on solar are > proud of our solar panels and take every opportunity to show them off. The > attitude of folks that think they are ugly is something I think dealers can > and should work on. > > How do we instill a sense of pride for folks that are just dipping their > feet into the realm of solar? Hell, if they really wanted good-looking they > wouldn't have put up that fence in the first place! > > Michael Welch > > ------------------------ > "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of > scum on top." > > Edward Abbey > > Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com > Associate Editor, Home Power magazine > Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance > (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 > > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From roy at four-winds-energy.com Tue Jun 6 11:13:38 2000 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler, Four Winds RE) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 08:13:38 -0700 Subject: PV Aesthetics [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.2083522501-951758591-960303347@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.496115429-212058698-960304418@topica.com> Count me in! There's definitely a need for it and I'd certainly value the input from the folks on this forum. Roy Butler Four Winds - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cpae1 at aol.com Tue Jun 6 11:42:29 2000 From: cpae1 at aol.com (Frank Fowler, Crystal Pines Alt. Energy ) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 08:42:29 -0700 Subject: PV Aesthetics [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1439988669-212058698-960306149@topica.com> Count me in! Frank Fowler Crystal Pines Alternative Energy - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From michael.welch at homepower.com Tue Jun 6 12:48:13 2000 From: michael.welch at homepower.com (Michael Welch, Home Power) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 09:48:13 -0700 Subject: List etiquette [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.474557305-212058698-960264779@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1741409631-212058698-960216763@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1506328470-212058698-960310093@topica.com> R. Sparks Scott wrote at 09:12 PM 6/5/2000 -0700: > Michael, I'd like to hear form you on this subject, maybe I'm the only >complainer who'd rather not get the full text time and time again? Please note how I edited out all but enough of the previous message to give list members a taste of what was said. And this message is an obvious change in subject matter so I also changed it. Sparky is right on. It is common list etiquette to remove unnecessary verbiage in the quoting, specially generations of previous quotes and previous signature info. I have slowly but surely been plugging away at some list etiquette stuff to post here for all of us, but in the meantime if you want to get an idea of typical list etiquette send mail to majordomo at gweep.bc.ca with the following line in the body: get faq ml-etiquette.txt Hey Sparky, at least you're not downloading these messages at 1200 baud like I have to here on the Optaphone at Agate Flat! Michael Welch ------------------------ "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." Edward Abbey Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com Associate Editor, Home Power magazine Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From michael.welch at homepower.com Tue Jun 6 12:50:08 2000 From: michael.welch at homepower.com (Michael Welch, Home Power) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 09:50:08 -0700 Subject: PV Aesthetics [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.2009113407-951758591-960298244@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.2144321508-212058698-960266822@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.196485510-951758591-960310208@topica.com> Todd Cory, Bald Mt. Solar wrote at 06:30 AM 6/6/2000 -0700: >I have one customer that HATED the sight of the (what I thought were nice looking) Solarex MSX 60 watt blue colored panels. She did NOT want to see them from her home, so the only acceptable location was behind some trees... which blocked about 40% of the sunlight available to them. I think I have her convinced to top the worst tree now which would still provide a visual screen, but not shade the array for so much of the day. Does anyone else see the irony in this? Great story, Todd. Michael Welch ------------------------ "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." Edward Abbey Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com Associate Editor, Home Power magazine Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From michael.welch at homepower.com Tue Jun 6 12:50:33 2000 From: michael.welch at homepower.com (Michael Welch, Home Power) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 09:50:33 -0700 Subject: New list for marketing? [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.2083522501-951758591-960303347@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1092926436-951758591-960262180@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1020151727-951758591-960310233@topica.com> Bill Roush, Solar Electric Systems wrote at 07:55 AM 6/6/2000 -0700: >Would anyone join me for an egroup (or topica) on solar marketing ? There >seems to be a demand for it on this wrenches list. Hi Bill. As list moderator I see no problem with this type of discussion taking place here. But I also see no problem with another list. I want this list to be for Wrenches, let's discuss this among the group. Let me pose these questions: 1. Does the group think that marketing discussions should be allowed and encouraged on this list or should we encourage it to be limited to technical/mechanical/electrical? 2. Is there enough need for marketing discussion to justify starting another list? Michael Welch ------------------------ "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." Edward Abbey Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com Associate Editor, Home Power magazine Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From j.lamb at pecorp.com Tue Jun 6 13:00:00 2000 From: j.lamb at pecorp.com (James Lamb, Middle Fork Engineering) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 10:00:00 -0700 Subject: New list for marketing? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.957312710-212058698-960310800@topica.com> Since most of us are small we all have marketing ideas to communicate the solar option. I would not mind some marketing. Lets see what how it works, If it gets to be too much we could start a new list then. I would be good to here the latest and share marketing problems or ideas. > ---------- > From: Michael Welch, Home Power[SMTP:michael.welch at homepower.com] > Reply To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2000 11:50 AM > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Subject: New list for marketing? [RE-wrenches] > > Bill Roush, Solar Electric Systems wrote at 07:55 AM 6/6/2000 -0700: > > >Would anyone join me for an egroup (or topica) on solar marketing ? > There > >seems to be a demand for it on this wrenches list. > > Hi Bill. As list moderator I see no problem with this type of discussion > taking place here. But I also see no problem with another list. I want > this list to be for Wrenches, let's discuss this among the group. Let me > pose these questions: > > 1. Does the group think that marketing discussions should be allowed and > encouraged on this list or should we encourage it to be limited to > technical/mechanical/electrical? > > 2. Is there enough need for marketing discussion to justify starting > another list? > > Michael Welch > > ------------------------ > ---------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cpae1 at aol.com Tue Jun 6 13:01:21 2000 From: cpae1 at aol.com (Frank Fowler, Crystal Pines Alt. Energy ) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 10:01:21 -0700 Subject: Aesthetics: [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.433704541-212058698-960310881@topica.com> I had a customer similar to Todd, but after she saw how much it was going to cost her to run 4/0 cable from her array to power panel, she had a change of heart, and we put the array where it would best serve her. When the system was up and running, and she was not going to have to pay the utility company anymore money, she decided that the solar panels didn't look so bad after all. It sometimes takes a little PR and some luck to convince these people that solar panels are really not so ugly! Frank Fowler Crystal Pines Alternative Energy - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solplex at montana.com Tue Jun 6 13:49:57 2000 From: solplex at montana.com (Lee Tavenner, Solar Plexus) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 10:49:57 -0700 Subject: PV Aesthetics [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.834655711-212058698-960243922@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1003056744-951758591-960256854@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.357799607-212058698-960313797@topica.com> We did a 12 KW solar shingle installation on a barn which serves 4 high end residences. Yes it is a fixed 12/12 pitch roof but it would have taken ten or more pole mounts in the backwoods yard to do the same amount of power and the owner absolutely would not have gone for it. The power line was only 1.5 miles away. The shingles saved the site for solar and work very well. The snow slides off almost as soon as it falls and their needs are met by the shingles very nicely. photo of the barn in new Home Power mag page 103 Mary at Solar Plexus - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From wkennedy at jademountain.com Tue Jun 6 14:04:14 2000 From: wkennedy at jademountain.com (Wes Kennedy, Jade Mountain) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 11:04:14 -0700 Subject: PV Aesthetics [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.2083522501-951758591-960303347@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.2083522501-951758591-960303347@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.629464269-951758591-960314654@topica.com> None of us is as smart as all of us. I'm up for it....... >Would anyone join me for an egroup (or topica) on solar marketing ? There Wes Kennedy Evolutionary Technologist "Your philosophy is not what you believe, it's how you live!" -j rubin - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From roy at four-winds-energy.com Tue Jun 6 14:15:37 2000 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler, Four Winds RE) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 11:15:37 -0700 Subject: PV Aesthetics [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.2144321508-212058698-960266822@topica.com> <0.1300002502.196485510-951758591-960310208@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.504153309-212058698-960315337@topica.com> I definitely see the irony in that story...I have a few of those stories myself....won't post 'em here but wanted to say that it's great to know that I don't get ALL those types of customers to myself! Roy Butler - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From roy at four-winds-energy.com Tue Jun 6 14:17:39 2000 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler, Four Winds RE) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 11:17:39 -0700 Subject: New list for marketing? [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1092926436-951758591-960262180@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1020151727-951758591-960310233@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1637841443-212058698-960315459@topica.com> Hi Mike My 2 cents worth....I think it depends on the volume. I vote for trying it here first and if the posting volume increases to the point that it detracts from the tech/mech/electrical discussions, spin it off to a seperate list. Roy Butler Four Winds - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solarbeacon at email.msn.com Tue Jun 6 14:20:03 2000 From: solarbeacon at email.msn.com (Bill Roush, Solar Electric Systems) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 11:20:03 -0700 Subject: New list for marketing? [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1020151727-951758591-960310233@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1817636892-951758591-960315603@topica.com> I would prefer a separate list for marketing. It could be open to a broader audience including distributors, marketing people at the manufacturing level, even solar advocates. I also like the idea of a purely technical group. Best, Bill Roush Solar Electric Systems of Kansas City, Inc. 13700 W. 108th St. Lenexa, KS 66215 913-338-1939 800-632-9751 913-469-5522fax solarbeacon at email.msn.com www.solarbeacon.com -----Original Message----- From: Michael Welch, Home Power [mailto:michael.welch at homepower.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2000 11:51 AM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: New list for marketing? [RE-wrenches] Bill Roush, Solar Electric Systems wrote at 07:55 AM 6/6/2000 -0700: >Would anyone join me for an egroup (or topica) on solar marketing ? There >seems to be a demand for it on this wrenches list. Hi Bill. As list moderator I see no problem with this type of discussion taking place here. But I also see no problem with another list. I want this list to be for Wrenches, let's discuss this among the group. Let me pose these questions: 1. Does the group think that marketing discussions should be allowed and encouraged on this list or should we encourage it to be limited to technical/mechanical/electrical? 2. Is there enough need for marketing discussion to justify starting another list? Michael Welch ------------------------ "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." Edward Abbey Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com Associate Editor, Home Power magazine Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From wkennedy at jademountain.com Tue Jun 6 14:28:28 2000 From: wkennedy at jademountain.com (Wes Kennedy, Jade Mountain) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 11:28:28 -0700 Subject: LED's for sign lighting revisited [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1516966722-212058698-960316108@topica.com> Howdy, I remember a while back, someone on the list was sharing successful use of LED;s for sign lighting. I am unsure how to size the thing, ie how many LEDs per square area. I have heard it said that 1 LED roughly equals 1 watt incandescent. Any comments? Thanks! Wes Kennedy Evolutionary Technologist "Your philosophy is not what you believe, it's how you live!" -j rubin - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ezra at lasqueti.net Tue Jun 6 15:55:10 2000 From: ezra at lasqueti.net (Ezra Auerbach, Trace Engineering) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 12:55:10 -0700 Subject: New list for marketing? [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1092926436-951758591-960262180@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1020151727-951758591-960310233@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.596003326-951758591-960321310@topica.com> I think that there is fertile ground for a dedicated discussion on marketing—selling the sun—is challenge, and as the market grows to encompass grid tie RE there will be many paradigms to explore. In short I'd say yes. Ezra Auerbach "Michael Welch, Home Power" wrote: > Bill Roush, Solar Electric Systems wrote at 07:55 AM 6/6/2000 -0700: > > >Would anyone join me for an egroup (or topica) on solar marketing ? There > >seems to be a demand for it on this wrenches list. > > Hi Bill. As list moderator I see no problem with this type of discussion taking place here. But I also see no problem with another list. I want this list to be for Wrenches, let's discuss this among the group. Let me pose these questions: > > 1. Does the group think that marketing discussions should be allowed and encouraged on this list or should we encourage it to be limited to technical/mechanical/electrical? > > 2. Is there enough need for marketing discussion to justify starting another list? > > Michael Welch > > ------------------------ > "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." > > Edward Abbey > > Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com > Associate Editor, Home Power magazine > Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance > (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 > > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cpae1 at aol.com Tue Jun 6 15:59:39 2000 From: cpae1 at aol.com (Frank Fowler, Crystal Pines Alt. Energy ) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 12:59:39 -0700 Subject: New list for marketing? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2144707588-212058698-960321579@topica.com> I think Bill has the right approach to this marketing thing. Frank Fowler Crystal Pines Alternative Energy cpae1 at aol.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunwise at win.bright.net Tue Jun 6 16:04:37 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (Kurt Nelson, SunWise) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 13:04:37 -0700 Subject: New list for marketing? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.510353001-951758591-960321877@topica.com> >Roy Butler wrote -- >My 2 cents worth....I think it depends on the volume. I vote for trying it >here first and if the posting volume increases to the point that it >detracts from the tech/mech/electrical discussions, spin it off to a >seperate list. I think it can be hard to seperate the technical from the aesthetics. Jeffrey Wolfe wrote that "Wall mounted panels can provide 70% or more of the energy of a properly tilted panel." .... sounds pretty technical to me. Kurt Nelson >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > >To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >for info contact: >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From mr.sun at juno.com Tue Jun 6 17:50:08 2000 From: mr.sun at juno.com (Greg Williams, Six Rivers Solar) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 14:50:08 -0700 Subject: Marketing [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.978670634-951758591-960328208@topica.com> 1. As long as marketing does not become the main focus of the PV wrenches topics I think it would be OK in this list. 2.If it did become a major topic, then a new list would be appropriate. Greg Williams Six Rivers Solar, Inc. 818 Broadway, Eureka, CA 95501 (800) 492-9276 www.sixriverssolar.com ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From michael.welch at homepower.com Tue Jun 6 19:58:27 2000 From: michael.welch at homepower.com (Michael Welch, Home Power) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 16:58:27 -0700 Subject: Name removal [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.674374393-951758591-960323766@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.7425451-212058698-960335907@topica.com> Will do when I get home next week, or you can send an email message to RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com to do it yourself. You will also need to respond to the verification message you receive as a result. Steve Hicks, Mt. Pass Wind Co. wrote at 01:36 PM 6/6/2000 -0700: > Please remove my name from the mailing list, I >will be out of state for three months and I don't want >my mailbox overflowing when I return. I do like the >wrench idea but feel there is a little too much chit >chat. Michael Welch ------------------------ "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." Edward Abbey Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com Associate Editor, Home Power magazine Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From michael.welch at homepower.com Tue Jun 6 20:11:38 2000 From: michael.welch at homepower.com (Michael Welch, Home Power) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 17:11:38 -0700 Subject: Name removal [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.7425451-212058698-960335907@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.674374393-951758591-960323766@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.936249109-951758591-960336698@topica.com> Aww geez, you'd think that the moderator would know better. Well, I guess I should hold myself up as a poor example of list etiquette. When you want to respond to an individual, be sure the individual's address is in the To: field, not the list address. Michael Welch, Home Power wrote at 04:58 PM 6/6/2000 -0700: >Will do when I get home next week, or you can send an email message to RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com to do it yourself. You will also need to respond to the verification message you receive as a result. Michael Welch ------------------------ "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." Edward Abbey Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com Associate Editor, Home Power magazine Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From aurora at toad.net Tue Jun 6 22:00:35 2000 From: aurora at toad.net (Jason Fisher, Aurora Energy) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 19:00:35 -0700 Subject: New list for marketing? [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1020151727-951758591-960310233@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.725751456-951758591-960343235@topica.com> Wrenchies, > 1. Does the group think that marketing discussions should be > allowed and encouraged on this list or should we encourage it to > be limited to technical/mechanical/electrical? Keeping it on the wrench list is fine by me. Too much technical stuff can get a little old after a day's work and I guess we need to refine our marketing skills if we're ever going to CASH IN! ;) Besides, who needs us wrenches anyway? Isn't it all going to be "Plug and Play" soon enough? keep up the up! ---- Jason Fisher Aurora Energy 86 Conduit St. Annapolis, MD 21401 USA Voice/ Fax: 410-268-3088 email: aurora at toad.net - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From aurora at toad.net Tue Jun 6 22:00:53 2000 From: aurora at toad.net (Jason Fisher, Aurora Energy) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 19:00:53 -0700 Subject: PV Aesthetics [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.834655711-212058698-960243922@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1420736052-951758591-960343253@topica.com> Friends, I think Jeffrey has made some good points. The key is to find what works best for the client then be flexible enough to satisfy their desires. I've found that I can never predict what choice someone is likely to make when I give them all the options. A decision to change a location, or type of panel etc, which I might think is foolish or an unneeded expense, turns out to be just the right solution the client was looking for to decide on a system. Two thoughts though. First BIPV is the future, I believe, to main stream PV use. I don't think PV should look like an afterthought on a building. Second, as things become more common in people's everyday lives, their aesthetics change accordingly. Why the heck do people screw vinyl shutters to their homes? They're not thinking about how absurd it would look to someone from the 1700s, they just know that their eye is used to seeing shutters, therefore they want them. ---- Jason Fisher Aurora Energy 86 Conduit St. Annapolis, MD 21401 USA Voice/ Fax: 410-268-3088 email: aurora at toad.net - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From microhydro at dplus.net Tue Jun 6 22:27:32 2000 From: microhydro at dplus.net (Ron Macleod) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 19:27:32 -0700 Subject: Un-abashed Self Promotion [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1420736052-951758591-960343253@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.917578865-951758591-960344852@topica.com> Hi Ladies and Gents - There is a bit too much e-mail in my box - abit of chit chat - I just delete the stuff that doesn't pertain - meanwhile the technical advice is great - One problem is that it's all PV talk - and I only do Micro Hydro - But the inverter and battery discussion is very useful. Now - about this marketing talk - It does fill up the mail box - I'm a little nervous it's going to be outlawed - SOOO - I'm going to indulge in a little ( alot ) of good old self promotion . I've worked in hydro for 22 years and now I've finally gotten around to designing and building an ultra low head reaction turbine especially for the RE market. Basically it's i Miniature ( 10" dia Runner ) utility style Francis turbine all built from stainless and fitted with a scroll case so it can be bolted to a 10" pvc pipeline. I call it the Nautilus Turbine. This baby developes 600 watts on 4 feet of head and gulps 1337 gpm. At 10 feet of head it puts out 2300 watts - there is a smaller 8" model too. I'll mail specs sheets to anyone who is interested - We have put some capital into this effort - and we are setting up at the MWRE Show in Madison next week - maybe I'll meet some of you there - I hope so. Next week or so we will have a Web page at www.waterturbine.com for now there are some Picts of the finished unit at: http://www.dplus.net/microhydro/T.gif. Sorry to fill your e-mail box if this doesn't interest you - Just delete. Best Ron - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From roy at four-winds-energy.com Tue Jun 6 22:34:12 2000 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler, Four Winds RE) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 19:34:12 -0700 Subject: Un-abashed Self Promotion [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1420736052-951758591-960343253@topica.com> <0.1300002502.917578865-951758591-960344852@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1816463438-212058698-960345252@topica.com> Ron, The others may not agree, but I find this to be useful info...thanks! I seem to be receiving more requests for hydro lately and can use all the info on it I can get. Seeya at MWRE! Roy Butler Four Winds - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From microhydro at dplus.net Tue Jun 6 22:44:04 2000 From: microhydro at dplus.net (Ron Macleod) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 19:44:04 -0700 Subject: Un-abashed Self Promotion [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1420736052-951758591-960343253@topica.com> <0.1300002502.917578865-951758591-960344852@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1816463438-212058698-960345252@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.53988021-951758591-960345844@topica.com> Roy - Thanks for the positive response - I'll be teaching a Low head Workshop at the Fair - Don Harris will be there teaching a high head workshop - Paul Cunningham asso has a booth. I think it's about time The RE business put a little emphasis on micro hydro for a change - It is after all the best renewable resource - you'll have to excuse me - I think the aestetics of all turbines is great - By the way I'll be showing a great new turbine controller at the Fair - I import it from Australia where it's been built for 8 years - It allows transmission from the turbine at up to160 volts dc and switches it down to a controlled battery charge - It also allows adjustable (Reostat) load governing to get the turbine speed just right - now we can effectivly use PM generators for the first time - Go Hydro- Best Ron - You guys (ladies) can delete this too. - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From wstahle at slonet.org Wed Jun 7 01:44:09 2000 From: wstahle at slonet.org (Wallace Stahle, Future Elec. Energy Co.) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 22:44:09 -0700 Subject: New list for marketing? [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1092926436-951758591-960262180@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1020151727-951758591-960310233@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.859347549-951758591-960356649@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/mixed Size: 2403 bytes Desc: not available URL: From steve at backwoodssolar.com Wed Jun 7 09:58:51 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 06:58:51 -0700 Subject: LED's for sign lighting revisited [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1516966722-212058698-960316108@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.303563092-951758591-960386331@topica.com> I have made readable signs with LEDs inserted from rear in holes in a sign to form point-defined letters. Viewing the letter patterns direct gives readability at much greater distance with much less power than illuminating painted letters from the front. Letters about 6 inches high with about 6 leds each or more worked. 6 standard LEDs wires series will use near correct milliamps on 12 volt, however that depends on brand and type. A small resistor may be needed to keep in a good range, about 20 ma. for the strings of 6. Superbrights cost a lot more and use different voltages and current, I find about 3 of those in series work on 12 volts at correct current. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems ----- Original Message ----- From: Wes Kennedy, Jade Mountain To: Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2000 11:28 AM Subject: LED's for sign lighting revisited [RE-wrenches] > Howdy, > > I remember a while back, someone on the list was sharing successful > use of LED;s for sign lighting. I am unsure how to size the thing, > ie how many LEDs per square area. I have heard it said that 1 LED > roughly equals 1 watt incandescent. Any comments? > > Thanks! > Wes Kennedy > Evolutionary Technologist > > "Your philosophy is not what you believe, it's how you live!" > -j rubin > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Wed Jun 7 10:09:28 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 07:09:28 -0700 Subject: PV Aesthetics [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1420736052-951758591-960343253@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2055463603-951758591-960386968@topica.com> Still, it is our job to show the customer an array of choices that will work, and simply tell them when something they contemplate will not work well. I think a 40% shaded site I would simply say is technically correct, will not work very well that way. That's my job here. Just like if a customer wanted to install a clothes washer on a 45 degree slope, the salesman would HAVE to say something. That's his job. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From toddcory at jps.net Wed Jun 7 10:32:16 2000 From: toddcory at jps.net (Todd Cory, Bald Mt. Solar) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 07:32:16 -0700 Subject: LED's for sign lighting revisited [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1516966722-212058698-960316108@topica.com> <0.1300002502.303563092-951758591-960386331@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1280596131-951758591-960388336@topica.com> Jade Mountain makes some LED sign lights you might want to check out: http://www.jademountain.com/ TC > > Howdy, > > > > I remember a while back, someone on the list was sharing successful > > use of LED;s for sign lighting. I am unsure how to size the thing, > > ie how many LEDs per square area. I have heard it said that 1 LED > > roughly equals 1 watt incandescent. Any comments? > > > > Thanks! > > Wes Kennedy > > Evolutionary Technologist - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cvsolar at aol.com Wed Jun 7 11:10:57 2000 From: cvsolar at aol.com (John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 08:10:57 -0700 Subject: New list for marketing? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1071488987-212058698-960390657@topica.com> I think trying it with this list is a good idea. Spin it off to another if it gets too big. I have observed that the list seems to shift between technical and other misc issues on a regular basis. I guess if there is no technical discussion, we must all know what we are doing! John Blittersdorf Central VT Solar - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cvsolar at aol.com Wed Jun 7 11:12:32 2000 From: cvsolar at aol.com (John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 08:12:32 -0700 Subject: Lockable Disconnect. [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.720264918-951758591-960390752@topica.com> After cruising for quite awhile installing only off-grid and backup power systems I am now about to retrofit 3 systems for net metering. Does anyone have some good ideas for the lockable disconnect box required by the power company. I am still waiting to hear from the local utility as to what they consider accessible. ie can it be in a customers garage (which could lock them out). I have a customer where her meter is inside a locked sunroom so I guess I can't even put it next to the utility meter. My plan is to direct the grid ac connection to the trace 4024 thru a basic weatherproof 60amp disconnect box at the closest and easiest point to exit the house. Any suggestions on box specs, etc? John Blittersdorf Central Vermont Solar and WInd - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From microhydro at dplus.net Wed Jun 7 11:19:40 2000 From: microhydro at dplus.net (Ron Macleod) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 08:19:40 -0700 Subject: Lockable Disconnect. [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.720264918-951758591-960390752@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1326313364-951758591-960391180@topica.com> Hi John - Central Vermont will straighten you out on this - you can bet on it! Generally the require a weatherproof disconnect adjacent to their metering. It has to be accessible. This location simplifies their paperwork - They have to print up a location on their grid sheets so the lineman can find the switch - one easy way is to follow the service entry to the meter and switch - Best of luck - Ron - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ellison at gisco.net Wed Jun 7 11:37:11 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison, Alternative Energy Systems) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 08:37:11 -0700 Subject: Lockable Disconnect. [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.720264918-951758591-960390752@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1822904300-951758591-960392231@topica.com> John, How about a 70 amp AC disconnect with a lockable cover? The one I have here is a 70 amp, #Q02-4L70S (Sq D) Bob -----Original Message----- From: John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind [mailto:cvsolar at aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 11:13 AM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Lockable Disconnect. [RE-wrenches] After cruising for quite awhile installing only off-grid and backup power systems I am now about to retrofit 3 systems for net metering. Does anyone have some good ideas for the lockable disconnect box required by the power company. I am still waiting to hear from the local utility as to what they consider accessible. ie can it be in a customers garage (which could lock them out). I have a customer where her meter is inside a locked sunroom so I guess I can't even put it next to the utility meter. My plan is to direct the grid ac connection to the trace 4024 thru a basic weatherproof 60amp disconnect box at the closest and easiest point to exit the house. Any suggestions on box specs, etc? John Blittersdorf Central Vermont Solar and WInd - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Wed Jun 7 11:48:03 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (R. Sparks Scott) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 08:48:03 -0700 Subject: Software Review and Offer [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1361719524-212058698-957651989@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1214513824-212058698-957634357@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1715876861-212058698-960392883@topica.com> Greetings Wrenchers; Some time back, we had a discussion about how nice it would be to be able to save and reload the programming in Trace SW series inverters. Now there is a beta version of a Windows program called WinVerter that can do this and more. I've posted a review of this software on my web site, go to to check it out. Lest anyone be offended that I am using the Wrenches list for (gasp) commercial purposes, let me tell you in advance, that I have no financial connection with the maker of this software. Additionally, Richmond Engineering, the creator of the program, is offering 20 free copies of the final version to Wrench List members for their evaluation of the beta version. If someone was giving away free PV's (or hydro units), you'd at least go look, right??? -S - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From michael.welch at homepower.com Wed Jun 7 12:18:59 2000 From: michael.welch at homepower.com (Michael Welch, Home Power) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 09:18:59 -0700 Subject: Product marketing not allowed [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.917578865-951758591-960344852@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1420736052-951758591-960343253@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1587752487-212058698-960394739@topica.com> RE-Wrenches crew: It was decided early on that this list would not be used for marketing products and self-promotion. Please refrain from this type of post. The marketing talk in the Wrenches mail list is general in nature, and not specific to anyones product. We need to keep it that way. Some alternatives: Include your product / promotion info in your bio on the RE-Wrenches web page. Wait until someone posts a question that your product provides an answer to. Also, any Wrenches that do microhydro would find the microhydro mailing list interesting. It is a pretty low volume list, 1-5 or so per day, although I have occasionally seen it go higher. I've been on it for a few months and have learned some things. They allow product marketing and self-promotion. Subscribe by sending a message to: microhydro-subscribe at eGroups.com Michael Welch ------------------------ "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." Edward Abbey Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com Associate Editor, Home Power magazine Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunwise at win.bright.net Wed Jun 7 13:38:23 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (Kurt Nelson, SunWise) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 10:38:23 -0700 Subject: Lockable Disconnect. [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.451469133-212058698-960399503@topica.com> At 08:12 AM 6/7/00 -0700, you wrote: Any suggestions on box specs, etc? >John Blittersdorf John, I have also used the Square D air conditioning disconnect and in my case the 60 amp version. It is small and cheap ($30US?). It looks like it contains a 60 amp 2 pole breaker, but is only a switch, and is lockable. I have also had good luck discussing options and alternatives with the utility. Alliant power even waved the disconnect in two systems I did when I sent them the info on the SW Trace -- Kurt >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > >To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >for info contact: >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From econnect at snowcrest.net Wed Jun 7 13:56:37 2000 From: econnect at snowcrest.net (Bob-O Schultze, Electron Connection) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 10:56:37 -0700 Subject: Lockable Disconnect. [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1822904300-951758591-960392231@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1822904300-951758591-960392231@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1451831567-951758591-960400597@topica.com> A lockable 60A Rainproof Safety Switch should be acceptable. They will want access to it at any time, so in a garage that may be locked probably won't cut it. I don't think they can REQIRE you to put it right next to the meter, but it makes sense from a lineman's point of view. (on the other hand, they can probably do whatever they damn well please and get away with it) Such is the mindset and clout of a monopoly. The 70A CB that Bob suggests probably won't do. They want something designed to switch under load (even though the Trace will have disconnected from the grid long ago) and while a CB will do that, it ain't what it's intended for. good Luck, Bob-O > >How about a 70 amp AC disconnect with a lockable cover? The one I have here >is a 70 amp, #Q02-4L70S (Sq D) Bob-O Schultze, Electron Connection PO Box 203, Hornbrook, CA 96044 800.945.7587 fax 530-475-3401 www.electronconnection.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From michael.welch at homepower.com Wed Jun 7 15:00:35 2000 From: michael.welch at homepower.com (Michael Welch, Home Power) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 12:00:35 -0700 Subject: Lockable Disconnect. [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.451469133-212058698-960399503@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.234787864-212058698-960404435@topica.com> Kurt Nelson, SunWise wrote at 10:38 AM 6/7/2000 -0700: >John, I have also used the Square D air conditioning disconnect and in my >case the 60 amp version. It is small and cheap ($30US?). It looks like it >contains a 60 amp 2 pole breaker, but is only a switch, and is lockable. I >have also had good luck discussing options and alternatives with the >utility. Alliant power even waved the disconnect in two systems I did when >I sent them the info on the SW Trace -- Kurt In CA, PG&E will not allow fuses or breakers in the disconnects because they do not want anything in there that a user would need to get to. PG&E locks the box closed in the on position until and if they ever need to switch it off. Also, I think these boxes need to have a hole drilled in them to lock in the on position, but there is a handy center-punched spot to do it. A simple matter. Michael Welch ------------------------ "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." Edward Abbey Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com Associate Editor, Home Power magazine Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Wed Jun 7 17:35:05 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 14:35:05 -0700 Subject: Generator Fuel Rules of Thumb [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1755313957-212058698-960301293@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1089975193-212058698-960413705@topica.com> Information I have from Kohler in writing, as well as the local propane dealer, says 36.39 cubic feet of propane at working pressure and 60 degrees is a gallon. Other posts here were claiming 154.3 cf per gallon so I took a day to check these sources before replying again. I assume they are measuring it at the appliance working pressure of about 1/2 pound, though this is not stated. That means a 10 kilowatt generator, like the 10RY on propane LP fuel, uses about 2 gallons per hour at full load, a figure that seems more proportional to experience. Perhaps the 154.3 cubic feet per gallon applies to natural gas where more must be used to equal the same energy? Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems A catalog business on a mountain 2 miles from utility lines, powered entirely by our catalog products. IF UTILITY POWER IS 1/2 MILE OR MORE FROM YOUR SITE, get our free 160 page solar-electric Planning Guide/Catalog. (Your postal address required - Our list is never given or sold). Phone(208)263-4290 Fax (208) 265-4788 in Idaho, USA ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck Heath, SunPower To: Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2000 7:21 AM Subject: Re: Generator Fuel Rules of Thumb [RE-wrenches] > On 6/2/00, Steve Willey said... > >We sell 10 RY, larger engine low rpm, but I believe the power usage at 75% > >load would be about twice what you figured. The 154.3 cu ft per gallon > >looks wrong, wasn't it somewhere around 45? > > According to the Kohler spec sheet, a 10RY operating at 60 Hz. consumes > LPG cfh at % load: > 100% 68 > 75% 54 > 50% 44 > 25% 35 > > My notes from other sources also say to convert LPG cu. ft. per hour to > gallons per hour, divide by 154.3. > > Hope this helps. > > Cordially, Chuck > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From microhydro at dplus.net Wed Jun 7 17:44:46 2000 From: microhydro at dplus.net (Ron Macleod) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 14:44:46 -0700 Subject: Product marketing not allowed [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1420736052-951758591-960343253@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1587752487-212058698-960394739@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1271193585-212058698-960414286@topica.com> SORRY MICHAEL - BEST RON - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From microhydro at dplus.net Wed Jun 7 18:29:19 2000 From: microhydro at dplus.net (Ron Macleod) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 15:29:19 -0700 Subject: Product marketing not allowed [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1420736052-951758591-960343253@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1587752487-212058698-960394739@topica.com> <0.1300002502.599460008-951758591-960415689@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1534433824-212058698-960416959@topica.com> Micheal - Gotcha - there is a lot of bullshitting - makes me wonder how busy some of these guys are - The tech talk is great! See you at the show - best Ron - I'll bring your book along - - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunpwr at jps.net Wed Jun 7 19:35:42 2000 From: sunpwr at jps.net (Chuck Heath, SunPower) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 16:35:42 -0700 Subject: Generator Fuel Rules of Thumb [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1738272651-212058698-960420942@topica.com> >Information I have from Kohler in writing, as well as the local propane >dealer, says 36.39 cubic feet of propane at working pressure and 60 degrees >is a gallon. Other posts here were claiming 154.3 cf per gallon so I took a >day to check these sources before replying again. Thank you, Steve. You have enlightened me. Cordially, Chuck Heath - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From aurora at toad.net Wed Jun 7 20:13:34 2000 From: aurora at toad.net (Jason Fisher, Aurora Energy) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 17:13:34 -0700 Subject: Lockable Disconnect. [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1822904300-951758591-960392231@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1752213016-951758591-960423214@topica.com> Could use a 60 A rainproof non-fused pullout type Air Conditioning disconnect. There are many manufacturers, most always are lockable, they are cheep and common. There is a blade type pullout switch which is inverted to turn off. I have never seen a warning that they are non-load breaking. Good luck. ---- Jason Fisher Aurora Energy 86 Conduit St. Annapolis, MD 21401 USA Voice/ Fax: 410-268-3088 email: aurora at toad.net - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From aurora at toad.net Wed Jun 7 20:24:39 2000 From: aurora at toad.net (Jason Fisher, Aurora Energy) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 17:24:39 -0700 Subject: Product marketing not allowed [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1534433824-212058698-960416959@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1928417279-951758591-960423879@topica.com> > Micheal - Gotcha - there is a lot of bullshitting - makes me wonder how > busy some of these guys are - One can usually get some idea of how busy we are based on the time of day the messages are posted! (Said in good jest, don't anyone take offense please) ---- Jason Fisher Aurora Energy 86 Conduit St. Annapolis, MD 21401 USA Voice/ Fax: 410-268-3088 email: aurora at toad.net - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cpae1 at aol.com Wed Jun 7 21:00:45 2000 From: cpae1 at aol.com (Frank Fowler, Crystal Pines Alt. Energy ) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 18:00:45 -0700 Subject: Product marketing not allowed [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.900739066-951758591-960426045@topica.com> Anyone ever heard of doing paperwork on Wednesdays? Frank Crystal Pines Alternative Energy - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From michael.welch at homepower.com Wed Jun 7 21:21:35 2000 From: michael.welch at homepower.com (Michael Welch, Home Power) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 18:21:35 -0700 Subject: Marketing List [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.900739066-951758591-960426045@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.318210348-212058698-960427295@topica.com> Obviously, we have no consensus on whether or not to start another list for the topic of dealer marketing. While we have only heard from a handful, I think we can count the comments we have as pretty typical for the rest of us. Personally, I don't think we are going to have enough traffic for a specialized list for marketing. That topic has already died down somewhat here. But I don't have any monopoly on correctness, just a gut level feeling -- more like a guess. On the other hand, it can't hurt anything to move marketing discussions to another list. If my guess turns right, the worst that can happen is few or no messages would be posted. Lists are pretty easy to set up. If someone wants to set it up, fine. Just please reach agreement on who will set it up and moderate it. I would be happy to help someone set it up if it is with Topica. Then post a message here inviting all to join, and at that point I will remove marketing as an acceptable topic here. If it turns out that any marketing list ends up being bust, then we can close it down and re-add general marketing as an acceptable topic on the RE-Wrenches list. Michael Welch ------------------------ "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." Edward Abbey Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com Associate Editor, Home Power magazine Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From global at sover.net Thu Jun 8 14:49:08 2000 From: global at sover.net (Jeffrey Wolfe, Global Resources) Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 11:49:08 -0700 Subject: Lockable Disconnect. [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.152282646-212058698-960490148@topica.com> John: I just installed one of these on a pending Vt application in CVPS territory. We'll see in a month or so whether or not CVPS has a problem with this type of switch. The disconnection is visible, and the door can be locked open with the pullout piece locked to the padlock so that it cannot be reinserted. Not quite like a disconnect switch, but meets all the codes and appears to meet VOSHA. (I reviewed the VOSHA codes during the current round of NEt Metering negotiations that we are in, trying to get rid of the disconnect requirement.) These pullouts are much cheaper (and physically smaller) than a disco. They were suggested to me by John Wiles at Sandia, so seems they "should" be acceptable. Jeff Jeffery D. Wolfe, P.E. Global Resource Options, LLP A Woman-Owned Vermont Limited Liability Partnership 4 Kibling Hill Road P.O. Box 51 Strafford, VT 05072 802/765-4632 802/765-9983 (Fax) global at sover.net www.globalresourceoptions.com ---------- From: Jason Fisher, Aurora Energy[SMTP:aurora at toad.net] Reply To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 8:13 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: RE: Lockable Disconnect. [RE-wrenches] Could use a 60 A rainproof non-fused pullout type Air Conditioning disconnect. There are many manufacturers, most always are lockable, they are cheep and common. There is a blade type pullout switch which is inverted to turn off. I have never seen a warning that they are non-load breaking. Good luck. ---- Jason Fisher Aurora Energy 86 Conduit St. Annapolis, MD 21401 USA Voice/ Fax: 410-268-3088 email: aurora at toad.net - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Thu Jun 8 18:22:24 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 15:22:24 -0700 Subject: Lockable Disconnect. [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.878787025-951758591-960502944@topica.com> >The 70A CB that Bob suggests probably won't do. They want something >designed to switch under load (even though the Trace will have >disconnected from the grid long ago) and while a CB will do that Of course circuit breakers can be switched under load. That is precisely what they are designed to do. Granted, most fuses aren't designed to be removed under load, but that has to do with the fuse holder, the voltage, and breaking the arc. Most factories and large commercial facilities use breakers to turn off the lighting every day. In this application they are supposed to be "switch rated" and they rarely are but that only applies to the duty cycle not the ability to interrupt the load. Maybe that's what you are referring to. The minimum AIR (amp interrupting rating) for modern breakers is 10,000 amps. Which means that they will survive a 10,000 amp fault and can be put back into service until they can be replaced. This has little application for residential but be assured any style Air Conditioning style disconnect is load break rated. Its very purpose is to allow the AC serviceperson to work on your unit without entering your house to secure the power. Travis Creswell - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From jay at asis.com Thu Jun 8 22:39:09 2000 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 19:39:09 -0700 Subject: Lockable Disconnect. [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1822904300-951758591-960392231@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1451831567-951758591-960400597@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1766749488-212058698-960518349@topica.com> Hi All, The cheapest is to use a non fused standard 3R lever type disconnect. Meets code, and since you are back feeding a breaker anyway you don't need any more protection. Jay Peltz Redway CA "Bob-O Schultze, Electron Connection" wrote: > A lockable 60A Rainproof Safety Switch should be acceptable. They > will want access to it at any time, so in a garage that may be locked > probably won't cut it. I don't think they can REQIRE you to put it > right next to the meter, but it makes sense from a lineman's point of > view. (on the other hand, they can probably do whatever they damn > well please and get away with it) Such is the mindset and clout of a > monopoly. > The 70A CB that Bob suggests probably won't do. They want something > designed to switch under load (even though the Trace will have > disconnected from the grid long ago) and while a CB will do that, it > ain't what it's intended for. > good Luck, Bob-O > > > > >How about a 70 amp AC disconnect with a lockable cover? The one I have here > >is a 70 amp, #Q02-4L70S (Sq D) > > Bob-O Schultze, Electron Connection > PO Box 203, Hornbrook, CA 96044 > 800.945.7587 fax 530-475-3401 > www.electronconnection.com > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From bill_loesch at compuserve.com Fri Jun 9 05:56:49 2000 From: bill_loesch at compuserve.com (Bill Loesch, Saint Louis Solar) Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 02:56:49 -0700 Subject: PV Aesthetics [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.526212019-212058698-960544609@topica.com> Jason Fisher said: >I don't think PV should look like an afterthought on a building. Second, as things become more common in people's everyday lives, their aesthetics change accordingly. Why the heck do people screw vinyl shutters to their homes? They're not thinking about how absurd it would look to someone from the 1700s, they just know that their eye is used to seeing shutters, therefore they want them.< Thanks for the analogy, Jason. Bill Loesch bill_loesch at compuserve.com tel / fax 314 631 1094 Solar 1 / St Louis Solar 9905 Vasel Drive St Louis MO 63123 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solar at eagle-access.net Fri Jun 9 13:11:29 2000 From: solar at eagle-access.net (Drake Chamberlin, Quicksilver Electrical) Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 10:11:29 -0700 Subject: Protection of DC circuits [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1651261295-951758591-960570689@topica.com> I have a question for the Wrench list. It has always been the wisdom that I'd heard, not to put DC circuits on the array side of a battery disconnect, because the open circuit voltage of the array could fry DC appliances. The question I have is: "Will a modern charge control, like a Trace C-40, adequately protect DC loads against open circuit array voltage?" Will an older type of charge control, such as the on-off type, protect DC loads? Thanks for your help. Drake - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ezra at lasqueti.net Fri Jun 9 14:26:54 2000 From: ezra at lasqueti.net (Ezra Auerbach, Trace Engineering) Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 11:26:54 -0700 Subject: Protection of DC circuits [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1651261295-951758591-960570689@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1184711878-212058698-960575214@topica.com> I'm always sort of a "what if" kind of guy so I figure it's a moot point if ta modern controller can protect DC loads because most of them have equalize options. If the controller is left set to equalize mode the DC loads could well have ample opportunity to turn to toast. I'd stick to taking DC loads off the battery side of the disconnect. Ezra Auerbach "Drake Chamberlin, Quicksilver Electrical" wrote: > I have a question for the Wrench list. It has always been the wisdom > that I'd heard, not to put DC circuits on the array side of a battery > disconnect, because the open circuit voltage of the array could fry DC > appliances. > > The question I have is: "Will a modern charge control, like a Trace > C-40, adequately protect DC loads against open circuit array voltage?" > > Will an older type of charge control, such as the on-off type, protect > DC loads? > > Thanks for your help. > > Drake > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Fri Jun 9 18:03:36 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 15:03:36 -0700 Subject: Electric Lawn Mowers [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1583582777-951758591-960588216@topica.com> Does anyone know of any electric riding lawnmowers? There used to be one made by GE (maybe?) and it had all kinds of great attachments. Like an electric chainsaw and hedge trimmer. I can find some real slick cordless electric push mowers on the internet but they won't do for my one acre yard. Lawnboy seems to have a nice one. I be interested in refurbing an old electric rider if I could find one near me (Missouri). Thanks Travis Creswell - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ian.woofenden at homepower.com Fri Jun 9 18:47:40 2000 From: ian.woofenden at homepower.com (Ian Woofenden, Home Power) Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 15:47:40 -0700 Subject: Electric Lawn Mowers [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1583582777-951758591-960588216@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1808354656-212058698-960590860@topica.com> Hi Travis, >Does anyone know of any electric riding lawnmowers? There used to be one >made by GE (maybe?) and it had all kinds of great attachments. Like an >electric chainsaw and hedge trimmer. I can find some real slick cordless >electric push mowers on the internet but they won't do for my one acre yard. > Lawnboy seems to have a nice one. I be interested in refurbing an old >electric rider if I could find one near me (Missouri). See Home Power #70 for an article on revivingthe GE lawn tractors. Ian Ian Woofenden , Fax: 360-293-7034 Associate Editor, Home Power magazine, The Hands-On Journal Of Home-Made Power Editors are Professional Idiots - We misunderstand text so our readers won't. HP subscriptions: $22.50 per year, PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA 800-707-6585 (US), 541-512-0220, or download current issue at - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From bob at energyoutfitters.com Fri Jun 9 18:57:32 2000 From: bob at energyoutfitters.com (Bob Maynard, Energy Outfitters) Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 15:57:32 -0700 Subject: Electric Lawn Mowers [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1583582777-951758591-960588216@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1780710862-951758591-960591452@topica.com> Travis, Larry Elliott, Solartech, in Bonanza, Oregon has a GE tractor and at one time had lines on more. His e-mail is larry at energyoutfitters.com . Regards, Bob Maynard Energy Outfitters "Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar" wrote: > Does anyone know of any electric riding lawnmowers? There used to be one > made by GE (maybe?) and it had all kinds of great attachments. Like an > electric chainsaw and hedge trimmer. I can find some real slick cordless > electric push mowers on the internet but they won't do for my one acre yard. > Lawnboy seems to have a nice one. I be interested in refurbing an old > electric rider if I could find one near me (Missouri). > > Thanks > Travis Creswell > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Fri Jun 9 19:47:17 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (R. Sparks Scott) Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 16:47:17 -0700 Subject: Electric Lawn Mowers [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1780710862-951758591-960591452@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1583582777-951758591-960588216@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1864103119-951758591-960594437@topica.com> Travis; As the owner of not one, but three GE Electrak electric garden tractors, let me reccomend them most highly! While my neighbors are driving me nuts with their gasoline mowers, I buzz the grass to length in solar-powered silence. You can check out two of my three tractors on my web site, . The tractors are in about the middle of the page. I occasionally get mail from folks who are interested in selling their tractors. Unfortunately, many are too far away to contemplate having the units shipped by freight. I'll look through my old mail and see if I have any from your area. Actually, I'll probably be selling one or two of my tractors when I get the 'super trak' built, I'm re-furbing a GE E-20, using the best of the parts from all of the others. If you do locate one for sale, I have all the factory service manuals, and can give you some tips and tricks about trouble shooting, etc. Some years ago, Bob McBroom of Kansas Wind Power sold Electraks and parts. You might check and see if he still does. -S - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From global at sover.net Fri Jun 9 21:18:08 2000 From: global at sover.net (Jeffrey Wolfe, Global Resources) Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 18:18:08 -0700 Subject: Propane energy conversion [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.980884729-212058698-960599888@topica.com> Following up on the Propane energy / BTU's per gallon, etc., discussions, I've just relocated a web page with all kinds of "equivalents" for propane. It is http://www.altenergy.net/propaned.htm#Propane Equivalents 91,547BTU per gallon 2,516 BTU per FT3 (atmospheric pressure) and many more on that page. Jeff Jeffery D. Wolfe, P.E. Global Resource Options, LLP A Woman-Owned Vermont Limited Liability Partnership 4 Kibling Hill Road P.O. Box 51 Strafford, VT 05072 802/765-4632 802/765-9983 (Fax) global at sover.net www.globalresourceoptions.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From i2p at aol.com Sat Jun 10 15:54:26 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (Don Loweburg, Offline) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 12:54:26 -0700 Subject: Lockable Disconnect. [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1840564857-212058698-960666866@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 1428 bytes Desc: not available URL: From michael.welch at homepower.com Sat Jun 10 16:50:48 2000 From: michael.welch at homepower.com (Michael Welch, Home Power) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 13:50:48 -0700 Subject: Lockable Disconnect. [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1840564857-212058698-960666866@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.134285908-951758591-960670248@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 2204 bytes Desc: not available URL: From i2p at aol.com Sat Jun 10 18:30:27 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (Don Loweburg, Offline) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 15:30:27 -0700 Subject: Lockable Disconnect. [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.686582583-212058698-960676227@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 1702 bytes Desc: not available URL: From global at sover.net Sat Jun 10 18:35:28 2000 From: global at sover.net (Jeffrey Wolfe, Global Resources) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 15:35:28 -0700 Subject: Lockable Disconnect. [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1531659466-951758591-960676528@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 2091 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sunmountain at netstep.net Sun Jun 11 17:30:21 2000 From: sunmountain at netstep.net (Larry Brown, Sunmountain) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 14:30:21 -0700 Subject: Hum Hum [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1686409612-212058698-960759021@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 1740 bytes Desc: not available URL: From i2p at aol.com Sun Jun 11 19:35:06 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (Don Loweburg, Offline) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 16:35:06 -0700 Subject: Hum Hum [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.395430162-951758591-960766506@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 2363 bytes Desc: not available URL: From richard.perez at homepower.com Sun Jun 11 20:52:40 2000 From: richard.perez at homepower.com (Richard Perez, Home Power magazine) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 17:52:40 -0700 Subject: Hum Hum [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1686409612-212058698-960759021@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1686409612-212058698-960759021@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.329882783-212058698-960771160@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 1962 bytes Desc: not available URL: From global at sover.net Mon Jun 12 08:41:03 2000 From: global at sover.net (Jeffrey Wolfe, Global Resources) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 05:41:03 -0700 Subject: Hum Hum [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1591545624-212058698-960813663@topica.com> OK, I know this sounds silly, but before you give up on the separate power supplies, try coiling any wires leading to the speakers, both power and audio, in a loose coil. (A Henry coil for afficianados). The coil acts as a dampener for stray signals, and sometimes takes out noise. Pretty cheap to try it! Jeff Jeffery D. Wolfe, P.E. Global Resource Options, LLP A Woman-Owned Vermont Limited Liability Partnership 4 Kibling Hill Road P.O. Box 51 Strafford, VT 05072 802/765-4632 802/765-9983 (Fax) global at sover.net www.globalresourceoptions.com Hello Larry The hum is originating on the signal being delivered by the computer. You will also have to power the computer on a clean sine wave inverter. Try an XP500. Richard >Wrenches, I recently installed a DR 1512 on a small system for a >customer. All was well until the customer added a set of stereo >speakers to her computer system. The speakers picked up the hum >from the DR1512. I installed a dedicated circuit connected to an >Exeltech Xp 125 12 volt and plugged the stereo speakers into that >oulet expecting that the hum would disappear. The speakers >continued to pick up the hum from the DR1512. Any suggestions on >how to eliminate the noise? Thanks Larry Brown Sunmountain >Olivebridge New York ------------------------------------ Richard Perez Home Power PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA Tele: 530-475-3179 FAX: 530-475-0836 Subscriptions: 800-707-6585 mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com Web: http://www.homepower.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Mon Jun 12 09:14:18 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 06:14:18 -0700 Subject: Electric Lawn Mowers [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1515208114-212058698-960815658@topica.com> Gang, Thanks for the leads on the Electraks. Travis - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From roy at four-winds-energy.com Mon Jun 12 14:25:55 2000 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler, Four Winds RE) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 11:25:55 -0700 Subject: Hum Hum [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1591545624-212058698-960813663@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.308421312-212058698-960834355@topica.com> Don't everybody hop on me at once for saying this....please take turns! I run a lot of computer equipment here on my system...a DR3624 provides my AC. I have NO hum on my computer speakers, or my stereo or my TV. I used to have a hum on my phone lines but a bit of re-routing and some shielding worked wonders. I agree completely that a sinewave inverter would be the ticket but some folks can't afford that (myself included!)...so I'd look into doing what Jeffrey suggested AND...check to see if that speaker system is the kind with the 'dreaded' power cube. I've seen these cubes induce lots of hum where you need it least. Roy Butler Four Winds Renewable Energy Co. - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From gosolar at win.bright.net Mon Jun 12 18:02:18 2000 From: gosolar at win.bright.net (Chris LaForge, Great Northern Solar) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:02:18 -0700 Subject: PV Aesthetics [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1420736052-951758591-960343253@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.834655711-212058698-960243922@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1642934583-212058698-960847338@topica.com> Dear Wrenches: Jason's comments here tweaked me a bit. >Two thoughts though. First BIPV is the future, I believe, to main stream PV >use. I don't think PV should look like an afterthought on a building. >Second, as things become more common in people's everyday lives, their >aesthetics change accordingly. Why the heck do people screw vinyl shutters >to their homes? They're not thinking about how absurd it would look to >someone from the 1700s, they just know that their eye is used to seeing >shutters, therefore they want them. > >---- > >Jason Fisher >Aurora Energy >86 Conduit St. >Annapolis, MD 21401 >USA > I believe that all forms of PV are BI. We integrate the PV no matter what. Some just happens to be doing more than one job in it's applicatoion (IE> roofing as well as PV). A well designed PV array does not look like an after thought. Just look at the 5Kw array at the MREF expo. site at the Madison fair. It looks like it belongs. As the designer I was able to mount the PV at the local lattitude rather than the 4/12 (18 degree) roof pitch for greater year round output. I can use long lived crystaline modules of my choice. I get a system that serves the client better than roofing in this case. While PV that serves more than just the PV task is good for the future costs of the PV industry, we need to make sure that clients understand all the parameters and options to give them the best choice. Energetically, Chris Great Northern Solar 77450 Evergreen Road, Suite #1 Port Wing, WI 54865 715-774-3374 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Mon Jun 12 18:06:10 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:06:10 -0700 Subject: Chatsworth, CA Lead [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2067441173-951758591-960847570@topica.com> Gang, Did we ever decide what to do with leads? If we did let me know what it was. I got this one this morning even though my web site is pretty clear about where we work. Here it is. I will be glad to forward his name and number to anyone who think they can help him. I remember Michael said that we couldn't post the name and number on the Wrench list. "I'm purchasing a home and would like to equip it with solar and/or wind Renewable Energy. While I am new to this concept, I have funds budgeted and look forward to "Net Metering" without batteries. If your organization can help in this area, please feel free to send me information to my email and ESPECIALLY via mail to: Chatsworth, CA 91313-4801 my number is xxxxxxxxxx. I supply this number to show the validity of my interest. DO NOT CALL IT UNINVITED. If you do, I will exclude your organization from the list of potentials. I'm sure you understand and wouldn't like those dinnertime hard-sell calls either. Thank you, " - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From roy at four-winds-energy.com Mon Jun 12 19:29:43 2000 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler, Four Winds RE) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 16:29:43 -0700 Subject: Chatsworth, CA Lead [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.2067441173-951758591-960847570@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2011075036-212058698-960852583@topica.com> Travis, You may not need to worry about forwarding this lead...I received this too....looks like he did a mass mailing...betcha others on this list received it too. But, if not, forward away! Roy Butler Four Winds Renewable Energy Co. - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From carlson at pe.net Mon Jun 12 19:42:26 2000 From: carlson at pe.net (Scott Carlson, Carlson Solar) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 16:42:26 -0700 Subject: New list for marketing? [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1092926436-951758591-960262180@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1020151727-951758591-960310233@topica.com> <0.1300002502.596003326-951758591-960321310@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1121027048-951758591-960853346@topica.com> Whom ever does do a Solar Marketing egroup please count me in! Scott Carlson Carlson Solar ----- Original Message ----- From: Ezra Auerbach, Trace Engineering To: Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2000 12:55 PM Subject: Re: New list for marketing? [RE-wrenches] > I think that there is fertile ground for a dedicated discussion on marketing-selling the sun-is challenge, and as the market grows to encompass grid tie RE there will be many paradigms to explore. In short I'd say yes. > > Ezra Auerbach > > "Michael Welch, Home Power" wrote: > > > Bill Roush, Solar Electric Systems wrote at 07:55 AM 6/6/2000 -0700: > > > > >Would anyone join me for an egroup (or topica) on solar marketing ? There > > >seems to be a demand for it on this wrenches list. > > > > Hi Bill. As list moderator I see no problem with this type of discussion taking place here. But I also see no problem with another list. I want this list to be for Wrenches, let's discuss this among the group. Let me pose these questions: > > > > 1. Does the group think that marketing discussions should be allowed and encouraged on this list or should we encourage it to be limited to technical/mechanical/electrical? > > > > 2. Is there enough need for marketing discussion to justify starting another list? > > > > Michael Welch > > > > ------------------------ > > "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." > > > > Edward Abbey > > > > Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com > > Associate Editor, Home Power magazine > > Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance > > (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 > > > > > > - - - - - - - > > To send a message to the list use: > > > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > > > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > > > for info contact: > > ___________________________________________________________ > > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From global at sover.net Mon Jun 12 19:58:50 2000 From: global at sover.net (Jeffrey Wolfe, Global Resources) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 16:58:50 -0700 Subject: Chatsworth, CA Lead [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1061252149-951758591-960854330@topica.com> Travis, You may not need to worry about forwarding this lead...I received this too....looks like he did a mass mailing...betcha others on this list received it too. But, if not, forward away! Roy Butler Four Winds Renewable Energy Co. We rec'd the lead also. Anyone not receive it? Jeff - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From carlson at pe.net Mon Jun 12 20:08:46 2000 From: carlson at pe.net (Scott Carlson, Carlson Solar) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 17:08:46 -0700 Subject: Lockable Disconnect. [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.134285908-951758591-960670248@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.741283688-212058698-960854926@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 8251 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cpae1 at aol.com Mon Jun 12 20:27:59 2000 From: cpae1 at aol.com (Frank Fowler, Crystal Pines Alt. Energy ) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 17:27:59 -0700 Subject: Chatsworth, CA Lead [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.274947304-212058698-960856079@topica.com> This fella did do a mass mailing to around 50 or more RE dealers and manufactures. Frank Fowler Crystal Pines Alternative Energy - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cpae1 at aol.com Mon Jun 12 20:33:41 2000 From: cpae1 at aol.com (Frank Fowler, Crystal Pines Alt. Energy ) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 17:33:41 -0700 Subject: Chatsworth, CA Lead [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2143943627-212058698-960856421@topica.com> My last count is 107. Frank - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From global at sover.net Mon Jun 12 20:43:32 2000 From: global at sover.net (Jeffrey Wolfe, Global Resources) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 17:43:32 -0700 Subject: Chatsworth, CA Lead [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.906376864-212058698-960857012@topica.com> So should we each send him a note (with a 1 MB attachment) telling him that what he is doing is not right, and that he should remail to a select few, or that otherwise we wont help him, or should we just let him go along... Jeff ---------- From: Frank Fowler, Crystal Pines Alt. Energy [SMTP:cpae1 at aol.com] Reply To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Sent: Monday, June 12, 2000 8:33 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Re: Chatsworth, CA Lead [RE-wrenches] My last count is 107. Frank - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cpae1 at aol.com Mon Jun 12 20:54:41 2000 From: cpae1 at aol.com (Frank Fowler, Crystal Pines Alt. Energy ) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 17:54:41 -0700 Subject: Chatsworth, CA Lead [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1287212567-212058698-960857681@topica.com> I think he is looking for the best bang for his buck, and if we flood him with large amounts of garbage, he may get soured on RE or RE dealers or both. We as RE dealers and installers should do as each of us feel, and see what happens. I don't think irratating him with junk is going to do any good. Frank - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From falk at investusa.net Mon Jun 12 21:04:15 2000 From: falk at investusa.net (Ken C. Falk, CCIM) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 18:04:15 -0700 Subject: Chatsworth, CA Lead [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1287212567-212058698-960857681@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.159348450-212058698-960858255@topica.com> He even sent the same message to me, in Virginia. I did a quick search on the Web and found that he graduated in 1980, from Canyon High School. Now that is useful information! Ken Falk Lexington, VA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Fowler, Crystal Pines Alt. Energy " To: Sent: Monday, June 12, 2000 8:54 PM Subject: Re: Chatsworth, CA Lead [RE-wrenches] > I think he is looking for the best bang for his buck, and if we flood him > with large amounts of garbage, he may get soured on RE or RE dealers or both. > We as RE dealers and installers should do as each of us feel, and see what > happens. I don't think irratating him with junk is going to do any good. > Frank > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Tue Jun 13 09:04:41 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 06:04:41 -0700 Subject: Chatsworth, CA Lead [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2040917039-212058698-960901481@topica.com> Let's all call him during dinner at 3 minute intervals! I'll call tonight, who wants Sunday evening! We can probably keep it going for a few weeks. We'll wear him down and he'll buy a big system just to get us off his back. Of course I am kidding. But seriously.. I get leads from energysourceguides every so often but they always say at the bottom P.S. I found you on energy source guides (or something like that) This one didn't. They have a basic listing for free and for something like $70/yr they will link to your web site from theirs and send you a report every month. "we referred 14 people to your website this month" type of thing. ---------- >From: "Michael Welch, Home Power" >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com, "'RE-wrenches at topica.com'" >Subject: RE: Chatsworth, CA Lead [RE-wrenches] >Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000, 8:05 PM > >Jeffrey Wolfe, Global Resources wrote at 05:43 PM 06/12/2000 -0700: > >>So should we each send him a note (with a 1 MB attachment) telling him that >>what he is doing is not right, and that he should remail to a select few, >>or that otherwise we wont help him, or should we just let him go along... > >Nah, this guy might be legit, just overly thorough. > >I think he mined our addresses from >http://energy.sourceguides.com/index.shtml. If he is an RE spammer (the >email address tinman should have put up red flags) he might be sending out >a test message to find out which addresses are good. > >On the other hand, his phone # is legit (I tried it and got his voice mail). > >Michael Welch - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solarbeacon at email.msn.com Tue Jun 13 13:10:04 2000 From: solarbeacon at email.msn.com (Bill Roush, Solar Electric Systems) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:10:04 -0700 Subject: New list for marketing? [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1121027048-951758591-960853346@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1807078597-951758591-960916204@topica.com> I would volunteer to manage the marketing list If Mr. Welch will assist in making it 'legit'. I've not done this before , but I am interested in the topic. Best, Bill Roush Solar Electric Systems of Kansas City, Inc. 13700 W. 108th St. Lenexa, KS 66215 913-338-1939 800-632-9751 913-469-5522fax solarbeacon at email.msn.com www.solarbeacon.com -----Original Message----- From: Scott Carlson, Carlson Solar [mailto:carlson at pe.net] Sent: Monday, June 12, 2000 6:42 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Re: New list for marketing? [RE-wrenches] Whom ever does do a Solar Marketing egroup please count me in! Scott Carlson Carlson Solar ----- Original Message ----- From: Ezra Auerbach, Trace Engineering To: Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2000 12:55 PM Subject: Re: New list for marketing? [RE-wrenches] > I think that there is fertile ground for a dedicated discussion on marketing-selling the sun-is challenge, and as the market grows to encompass grid tie RE there will be many paradigms to explore. In short I'd say yes. > > Ezra Auerbach > > "Michael Welch, Home Power" wrote: > > > Bill Roush, Solar Electric Systems wrote at 07:55 AM 6/6/2000 -0700: > > > > >Would anyone join me for an egroup (or topica) on solar marketing ? There > > >seems to be a demand for it on this wrenches list. > > > > Hi Bill. As list moderator I see no problem with this type of discussion taking place here. But I also see no problem with another list. I want this list to be for Wrenches, let's discuss this among the group. Let me pose these questions: > > > > 1. Does the group think that marketing discussions should be allowed and encouraged on this list or should we encourage it to be limited to technical/mechanical/electrical? > > > > 2. Is there enough need for marketing discussion to justify starting another list? > > > > Michael Welch > > > > ------------------------ - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From aurora at toad.net Tue Jun 13 15:04:19 2000 From: aurora at toad.net (Jason Fisher, Aurora Energy) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 12:04:19 -0700 Subject: PV Aesthetics [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1642934583-212058698-960847338@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1021214136-951758591-960923059@topica.com> Chris and All, Sorry, I don't mean to "tweak" anyone (I do enough of that on my jobs!) and I think that Chris took my comments the wrong way. One problem with email still remains an inability to express the tone of the messages satisfactorily. If those still interested in this discussion might indulge me (and others should delete now!); PV IS beautiful. Performance IS paramount. Good design and installation IS important and noticeable. BIPV (means different things to different people) is to me the integration of PV into the building, whatever the mechanical details and however the designer chooses. This, I believe, is important to get clients, builders, and architects thinking of other things such as building orientation and passive solar. By stating that "PV shouldn't look like an afterthought on a building", I was making a comment on how we in the installation end of the industry, tend to get brought into the building process late in the game. I feel that by integrating PV into the structures (not by compromising the performance of the PV but by improving the design of the building) we will see more and more homeowners and businesses accepting it into their daily lives. My analogy to vinyl shutters was intended to point out how fickle some people's sense of aesthetics can be. Architecture has always integrated function into form, in fact, that might be what architecture is!? PV IS different from such things as shingles and awnings, but I feel that besides those of us in the know, its beauty lies more in its function than its form. I look forward to viewing your array Chris, I'm sure its pretty! ---- Jason Fisher Aurora Energy 86 Conduit St. Annapolis, MD 21401 USA Voice/ Fax: 410-268-3088 email: aurora at toad.net > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris LaForge, Great Northern Solar > [mailto:gosolar at win.bright.net] > Sent: Monday, June 12, 2000 3:02 PM > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Subject: RE: PV Aesthetics [RE-wrenches] > > > Dear Wrenches: > > Jason's comments here tweaked me a bit. > > >Two thoughts though. First BIPV is the future, I believe, to > main stream PV > >use. I don't think PV should look like an afterthought on a building. > >Second, as things become more common in people's everyday lives, their > >aesthetics change accordingly. Why the heck do people screw > vinyl shutters > >to their homes? They're not thinking about how absurd it would look to > >someone from the 1700s, they just know that their eye is used to seeing > >shutters, therefore they want them. > > > >---- > > > >Jason Fisher > >Aurora Energy > >86 Conduit St. > >Annapolis, MD 21401 > >USA > > > > I believe that all forms of PV are BI. We integrate the PV no > matter what. > Some just happens to be doing more than one job in it's applicatoion (IE> > roofing as well as PV). > > A well designed PV array does not look like an after thought. > Just look at > the 5Kw array at the MREF expo. site at the Madison fair. It > looks like it > belongs. As the designer I was able to mount the PV at the local > lattitude > rather than the 4/12 (18 degree) roof pitch for greater year round output. > I can use long lived crystaline modules of my choice. I get a system that > serves the client better than roofing in this case. > > While PV that serves more than just the PV task is good for the future > costs of the PV industry, we need to make sure that clients understand all > the parameters and options to give them the best choice. > > Energetically, Chris > > Great Northern Solar > 77450 Evergreen Road, Suite #1 > Port Wing, WI 54865 > 715-774-3374 > > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solarbeacon at email.msn.com Tue Jun 13 18:13:02 2000 From: solarbeacon at email.msn.com (Bill Roush, Solar Electric Systems) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 15:13:02 -0700 Subject: Inverters [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.318210348-212058698-960427295@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1388357369-212058698-960934382@topica.com> What are people's thoughts on Xantrex buying Trace, Statpower, Heart Interface, and Cruising Equipment? Just one big happy family now, eh? Best, Bill Roush Solar Electric Systems of Kansas City, Inc. 13700 W. 108th St. Lenexa, KS 66215 913-338-1939 800-632-9751 913-469-5522fax solarbeacon at email.msn.com www.solarbeacon.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cpae1 at aol.com Tue Jun 13 18:53:01 2000 From: cpae1 at aol.com (Frank Fowler, Crystal Pines Alt. Energy ) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 15:53:01 -0700 Subject: Inverters [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1054442289-951758591-960936781@topica.com> Bill, All this happened between Oct. of 99 and April of 2000. Wonder why nobody from Trace, etc., bothered to tell everyone? Was this a leverage thing or what? Frank Fowler Crystal Pines Alternative Energy - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solenergy at optinet.hn Tue Jun 13 19:24:55 2000 From: solenergy at optinet.hn (Ned van Steenwyk, Soluciones Energeticas) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 16:24:55 -0700 Subject: Stacking DR Inverters [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2061915285-951758591-960938695@topica.com> Maybe one of you can help me with this question? What are the advantages of using the stacking cables for Trace DR inverters? We have a client who originally wanted 220 power so we ordered the DR stacking cables for this installation with two DR3624 inverters. Now they would like to have two 110 lines, rather than the 220 line. I understand we can run one 110 circuit off of each of the two DR inverters with the stacking cables. But, it would just seem like a cleaner installation to forget the stacking cables and use one inverter for each of the two 110 circuits. Or, are there some advantages, that I am not aware of, with using the stacking cables with the two DR inverters? Ned van Steenwyk Soluciones Energeticas Honduras - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solarjon at netshel.net Tue Jun 13 19:42:55 2000 From: solarjon at netshel.net (Jonathan Hill) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 16:42:55 -0700 Subject: Stacking DR Inverters [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.2061915285-951758591-960938695@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.2061915285-951758591-960938695@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1034142332-212058698-960939775@topica.com> >Ned- The advantage to using the stacking setup is that not only can you get two separate 110 volt circuits, but a 220 volt circuit as well. You can also charge your batteries at full power from a 220/110 volt generator and get full power off both windings so the load is balanced, leading to longer generator life. Jon Hill Sierra Solar Systems >Maybe one of you can help me with this question? What are the advantages >of using the stacking cables for Trace DR inverters? We have a client who >originally wanted 220 power so we ordered the DR stacking cables for this >installation with two DR3624 inverters. Now they would like to have two >110 lines, rather than the 220 line. > >I understand we can run one 110 circuit off of each of the two DR inverters >with the stacking cables. But, it would just seem like a cleaner >installation to forget the stacking cables and use one inverter for each of >the two 110 circuits. Or, are there some advantages, that I am not aware >of, with using the stacking cables with the two DR inverters? > >Ned van Steenwyk >Soluciones Energeticas >Honduras > >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: > >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > >To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >for info contact: >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics ----------------- Sierra Solar Systems 109-N Argall Way Nevada City, CA 95959 tech info and foreign orders: (530) 265-8441 order line: (800) 51-SOLAR (US only) FAX: (530) 265-6151 e-mail: world wide web: Because of the high volume of e-mail to which I respond, please leave _all_ of the previous message (unless it's unbearable) in your reply so I can better remember your original message. - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ezra at lasqueti.net Tue Jun 13 19:43:34 2000 From: ezra at lasqueti.net (Ezra Auerbach, Trace Engineering) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 16:43:34 -0700 Subject: New list for marketing? [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1807078597-951758591-960916204@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.449383573-951758591-960939814@topica.com> yea Bill, go for it! Ezra Auerbach "Bill Roush, Solar Electric Systems" wrote: > I would volunteer to manage the marketing list If Mr. Welch will assist in > making it 'legit'. I've not done this before , but I am interested in the > topic. > Best, > Bill Roush > Solar Electric Systems of Kansas City, Inc. > 13700 W. 108th St. > Lenexa, KS 66215 > 913-338-1939 > 800-632-9751 > 913-469-5522fax > solarbeacon at email.msn.com > www.solarbeacon.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: Scott Carlson, Carlson Solar [mailto:carlson at pe.net] > Sent: Monday, June 12, 2000 6:42 PM > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Subject: Re: New list for marketing? [RE-wrenches] > > Whom ever does do a Solar Marketing egroup please count me in! > > Scott Carlson > Carlson Solar > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ezra Auerbach, Trace Engineering > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2000 12:55 PM > Subject: Re: New list for marketing? [RE-wrenches] > > > I think that there is fertile ground for a dedicated discussion on > marketing-selling the sun-is challenge, and as the market grows to encompass > grid tie RE there will be many paradigms to explore. In short I'd say yes. > > > > Ezra Auerbach > > > > "Michael Welch, Home Power" wrote: > > > > > Bill Roush, Solar Electric Systems wrote at 07:55 AM 6/6/2000 -0700: > > > > > > >Would anyone join me for an egroup (or topica) on solar marketing ? > There > > > >seems to be a demand for it on this wrenches list. > > > > > > Hi Bill. As list moderator I see no problem with this type of discussion > taking place here. But I also see no problem with another list. I want this > list to be for Wrenches, let's discuss this among the group. Let me pose > these questions: > > > > > > 1. Does the group think that marketing discussions should be allowed and > encouraged on this list or should we encourage it to be limited to > technical/mechanical/electrical? > > > > > > 2. Is there enough need for marketing discussion to justify starting > another list? > > > > > > Michael Welch > > > > > > ------------------------ > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cvsolar at aol.com Wed Jun 14 07:17:30 2000 From: cvsolar at aol.com (John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 04:17:30 -0700 Subject: Chatsworth, CA Lead [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1588559771-212058698-960981450@topica.com> I got this one too. He has quite a list of potential dealers!\ John CVSolar - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From michael.welch at homepower.com Wed Jun 14 11:40:30 2000 From: michael.welch at homepower.com (Michael Welch, Home Power) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 08:40:30 -0700 Subject: Chatsworth, CA Lead [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1588559771-212058698-960981450@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2145613574-951758591-960997230@topica.com> John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind wrote at 04:17 AM 06/14/2000 -0700: >I got this one too. He has quite a list of potential dealers!\ I got a response from him this morning. He is interested in a 10 KW system. Anybody in S CA or Central CA want to talk to him? I also got a fresh email from him that looks like it went out to the same list as his first one. I wrote him back asking about where he got the list, since two of my very rarely used email addresses are on that list. Michael Welch ------------------------ "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." Edward Abbey Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com Associate Editor, Home Power magazine Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cpae1 at aol.com Wed Jun 14 11:59:28 2000 From: cpae1 at aol.com (Frank Fowler, Crystal Pines Alt. Energy ) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 08:59:28 -0700 Subject: Chatsworth, CA Lead [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1101980755-951758591-960998368@topica.com> Michael, Where exactly is Chatsworth, CA? I looked at my 1994 Atlas and it was nowhere to be found. Guess I should update my Atlas. Frank Fowler Crystal Pines Alternative Energy - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From michael.welch at homepower.com Wed Jun 14 12:10:55 2000 From: michael.welch at homepower.com (Michael Welch, Home Power) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 09:10:55 -0700 Subject: Chatsworth, CA Lead [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1101980755-951758591-960998368@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1259667429-951758591-960999055@topica.com> Frank Fowler, Crystal Pines Alt. Energy wrote at 08:59 AM 06/14/2000 -0700: >Michael, Where exactly is Chatsworth, CA? I looked at my 1994 Atlas and it >was nowhere to be found. Guess I should update my Atlas. >Frank Fowler >Crystal Pines Alternative Energy On the border between Los Angeles & Ventura Counties, NE of Beverly Hills near Thousand Oaks. It wasn't in my atlas either, but http://maps.yahoo.com/ found it nicely. Michael Welch ------------------------ "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." Edward Abbey Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com Associate Editor, Home Power magazine Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cpae1 at aol.com Wed Jun 14 12:19:11 2000 From: cpae1 at aol.com (Frank Fowler, Crystal Pines Alt. Energy ) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 09:19:11 -0700 Subject: Chatsworth, CA Lead [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1082074364-212058698-960999551@topica.com> Michael, Too far for me. Frank Fowler - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solarjon at netshel.net Wed Jun 14 13:12:24 2000 From: solarjon at netshel.net (Jonathan Hill) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 10:12:24 -0700 Subject: New list for marketing? [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.449383573-951758591-960939814@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1807078597-951758591-960916204@topica.com> <0.1300002502.449383573-951758591-960939814@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.688562424-212058698-961002744@topica.com> >Bill- Please put us on the list. Jon Hill Sierra Solar Systems >yea Bill, go for it! > >Ezra Auerbach > >"Bill Roush, Solar Electric Systems" wrote: > > > I would volunteer to manage the marketing list If Mr. Welch will assist in > > making it 'legit'. I've not done this before , but I am interested in the > > topic. > > Best, > > Bill Roush > > Solar Electric Systems of Kansas City, Inc. > > 13700 W. 108th St. > > Lenexa, KS 66215 > > 913-338-1939 > > 800-632-9751 > > 913-469-5522fax > > solarbeacon at email.msn.com > > www.solarbeacon.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Scott Carlson, Carlson Solar [mailto:carlson at pe.net] > > Sent: Monday, June 12, 2000 6:42 PM > > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > > Subject: Re: New list for marketing? [RE-wrenches] > > > > Whom ever does do a Solar Marketing egroup please count me in! > > > > Scott Carlson > > Carlson Solar > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Ezra Auerbach, Trace Engineering > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2000 12:55 PM > > Subject: Re: New list for marketing? [RE-wrenches] > > > > > I think that there is fertile ground for a dedicated discussion on > > marketing-selling the sun-is challenge, and as the market grows >to encompass > > grid tie RE there will be many paradigms to explore. In short I'd say yes. > > > > > > Ezra Auerbach > > > > > > "Michael Welch, Home Power" wrote: > > > > > > > Bill Roush, Solar Electric Systems wrote at 07:55 AM 6/6/2000 -0700: > > > > > > > > >Would anyone join me for an egroup (or topica) on solar marketing ? > > There > > > > >seems to be a demand for it on this wrenches list. > > > > > > > > Hi Bill. As list moderator I see no problem with this type of >discussion > > taking place here. But I also see no problem with another list. I want this > > list to be for Wrenches, let's discuss this among the group. Let me pose > > these questions: > > > > > > > > 1. Does the group think that marketing discussions should be >allowed and > > encouraged on this list or should we encourage it to be limited to > > technical/mechanical/electrical? > > > > > > > > 2. Is there enough need for marketing discussion to justify starting > > another list? > > > > > > > > Michael Welch > > > > > > > > ------------------------ > > > > - - - - - - - > > To send a message to the list use: > > > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > > > > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > > > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > > > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > > > for info contact: > > ___________________________________________________________ > > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: > >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > >To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >for info contact: >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics ----------------- Sierra Solar Systems 109-N Argall Way Nevada City, CA 95959 tech info and foreign orders: (530) 265-8441 order line: (800) 51-SOLAR (US only) FAX: (530) 265-6151 e-mail: world wide web: Because of the high volume of e-mail to which I respond, please leave _all_ of the previous message (unless it's unbearable) in your reply so I can better remember your original message. - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From michael.welch at homepower.com Wed Jun 14 13:38:19 2000 From: michael.welch at homepower.com (Michael Welch, Home Power) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 10:38:19 -0700 Subject: New list for marketing? [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.688562424-212058698-961002744@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.449383573-951758591-960939814@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1807078597-951758591-960916204@topica.com> <0.1300002502.449383573-951758591-960939814@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.588869232-951758591-961004299@topica.com> Jonathan Hill wrote at 10:12 AM 06/14/2000 -0700: >Please put us on the list. >Jon Hill >Sierra Solar Systems Folks, a new list for RE-marketing is currently being set up. We will announce here when that has happened. Then, please send your requests directly to Bill instead of to the Wrenches list. Michael Welch ------------------------ "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." Edward Abbey Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com Associate Editor, Home Power magazine Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From carlson at pe.net Wed Jun 14 16:05:32 2000 From: carlson at pe.net (Scott Carlson, Carlson Solar) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 13:05:32 -0700 Subject: Stacking DR Inverters [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.2061915285-951758591-960938695@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2018889786-212058698-961013132@topica.com> Well reduced neutral line amp loads is the only thing I can think of. (My little two cents worth) Scott Carlson ----- Original Message ----- From: Ned van Steenwyk, Soluciones Energeticas To: Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 4:24 PM Subject: Stacking DR Inverters [RE-wrenches] > > Maybe one of you can help me with this question? What are the advantages > of using the stacking cables for Trace DR inverters? We have a client who > originally wanted 220 power so we ordered the DR stacking cables for this > installation with two DR3624 inverters. Now they would like to have two > 110 lines, rather than the 220 line. > > I understand we can run one 110 circuit off of each of the two DR inverters > with the stacking cables. But, it would just seem like a cleaner > installation to forget the stacking cables and use one inverter for each of > the two 110 circuits. Or, are there some advantages, that I am not aware > of, with using the stacking cables with the two DR inverters? > > Ned van Steenwyk > Soluciones Energeticas > Honduras > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From carlson at pe.net Wed Jun 14 16:05:33 2000 From: carlson at pe.net (Scott Carlson, Carlson Solar) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 13:05:33 -0700 Subject: Chatsworth, CA Lead [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.2067441173-951758591-960847570@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2082742642-951758591-961013133@topica.com> Hi Travis, Scott here from Calson's Solar. I have already contacted him and we are communicating via E-mail. But feel free to pass on the info to anyone else who may be in the Ca area besides us! I always welcome the competition as it can only help the Solar cause and the customer. ----- Original Message ----- From: Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar To: RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, June 12, 2000 3:06 PM Subject: Chatsworth, CA Lead [RE-wrenches] > Gang, > > Did we ever decide what to do with leads? If we did let me know what it > was. > > I got this one this morning even though my web site is pretty clear about > where we work. > > Here it is. I will be glad to forward his name and number to anyone who > think they can help him. I remember Michael said that we couldn't post the > name and number on the Wrench list. > > > "I'm purchasing a home and would like to equip it with solar and/or wind > Renewable Energy. While I am new to this concept, I have funds budgeted > and look forward to "Net Metering" without batteries. If your > organization can help in this area, please feel free to send me > information to my email and ESPECIALLY via mail to: > > > Chatsworth, CA 91313-4801 > > my number is xxxxxxxxxx. I supply this number to show the validity of > my interest. DO NOT CALL IT UNINVITED. If you do, I will exclude your > organization from the list of potentials. I'm sure you understand and > wouldn't like those dinnertime hard-sell calls either. > > Thank you, > > " > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From carlson at pe.net Wed Jun 14 16:05:33 2000 From: carlson at pe.net (Scott Carlson, Carlson Solar) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 13:05:33 -0700 Subject: get together [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1591545624-212058698-960813663@topica.com> <0.1300002502.308421312-212058698-960834355@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1517239236-951758591-961013133@topica.com> Does anyone think it might be nice for some of us on the list to have a face to face get together? What I have in mind is something where we can get together as a group, drink and be merry, say what we feel without corporate solar, maybe in a camping environment at Flagstaff before or after the fall Solar/Environmental fair. It gives us a good excuse to use the trip as a write-off, to bring our families and friends, to socialize with our own kind for a few days, while exploring the local area (Grand Canyon etc.). Scott Carlson - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ipl at sover.net Wed Jun 14 17:00:41 2000 From: ipl at sover.net (David Palumbo, Independent Power & Light) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 14:00:41 -0700 Subject: Todd/Honda problem [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1978354605-951758591-961016441@topica.com> Problem: Honda EU 3000 IS (inverter output) generator goes into protection mode (breaker like disconnection from load) when powering two Todd 75 amp (seriesed for 24v output) battery chargers. What we know: The Todd's use 1070 watts each under full load, they use 1475 watts under maximum load and 80 amps inrush current for 5 milliseconds (Todd Engineering gave me the latter two numbers yesterday). The Honda gen is rated for 3kw max and 2875w continuous power (120v only). It tests out on a resistive load bank with the protection feature opening at 30amps. With the 225 amp hour battery bank (small but ok for the application and pocketbook involved)at 85% state of charge, or more, the gen powers the chargers fine. I thought the generator would be able to handle this load ok. Wrong. So my question to the more electronically savvy wrenches out there is: Will wiring a capacitor across the Honda's output help the gen deal with the surge that is shutting it down? And what type of capacitor, motor start or motor run? And what Microfarad rating? Thanks for your time, David Palumbo - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cpae1 at aol.com Wed Jun 14 17:44:53 2000 From: cpae1 at aol.com (Frank Fowler, Crystal Pines Alt. Energy ) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 14:44:53 -0700 Subject: Chatsworth, CA Lead [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.587564369-951758591-961019093@topica.com> Michael, Thanks for the hint about maps at yahoo.com Frank Fowler Crystal Pines Alternative Energy Located in the Sierra foothills, just 20 miles southeast of Chico, CA. www.solarenergy-alt.com 530-532-1972 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Wed Jun 14 18:58:16 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 15:58:16 -0700 Subject: Chatsworth, CA Lead [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.8658658-951758591-961023496@topica.com> Hey Scott, Sounds great to me. Looks like we all got the same email anyway so any body who wanted to respond to him didn't need to involve me. Good Luck to whoever gets it and lets hope someone gets it! Travis ---------- >From: "Scott Carlson, Carlson Solar" >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Subject: Re: Chatsworth, CA Lead [RE-wrenches] >Date: Wed, Jun 14, 2000, 3:05 PM > >Hi Travis, Scott here from Calson's Solar. I have already contacted him >and we are communicating via E-mail. But feel free to pass on the info to >anyone else who may be in the Ca area besides us! I always welcome the >competition as it can only help the Solar cause and the customer. - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From jay at asis.com Fri Jun 16 23:58:53 2000 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 20:58:53 -0700 Subject: Todd/Honda problem [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1978354605-951758591-961016441@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.140953150-212058698-961214333@topica.com> Hi David, I have had a lot of problems with the "new" todd 75's running in series. When I worked at AEE we burned up 8 or 10 of them running in series, and this was on utility power. I don't know the answer to your question but I would caution you to use the 75's, the 45's and 30's seem to be fine however. jay peltz "David Palumbo, Independent Power & Light" wrote: > Problem: Honda EU 3000 IS (inverter output) generator goes into protection > mode (breaker like disconnection from load) when powering two Todd 75 amp > (seriesed for 24v output) battery chargers. > > What we know: The Todd's use 1070 watts each under full load, they use 1475 > watts under maximum load and 80 amps inrush current for 5 milliseconds (Todd > Engineering gave me the latter two numbers yesterday). > The Honda gen is rated for 3kw max and 2875w continuous power (120v only). > It tests out on a resistive load bank with the protection feature opening at > 30amps. With the 225 amp hour battery bank (small but ok for the application > and pocketbook involved)at 85% state of charge, or more, the gen powers the > chargers fine. > > I thought the generator would be able to handle this load ok. Wrong. So my > question to the more electronically savvy wrenches out there is: Will wiring > a capacitor across the Honda's output help the gen deal with the surge that > is shutting it down? And what type of capacitor, motor start or motor run? > And what Microfarad rating? > > Thanks for your time, > > David Palumbo > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ________________________________________________________________________ Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register From jay at asis.com Fri Jun 16 23:58:59 2000 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 20:58:59 -0700 Subject: Stacking DR Inverters [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.2061915285-951758591-960938695@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1034142332-212058698-960939775@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.645587535-212058698-961214339@topica.com> Hi All, The other option is that you can run into a transformer at 220v, step down to 120v to get full combined output at 120v. Jay Peltz Jonathan Hill wrote: > >Ned- > > The advantage to using the stacking setup is that not only can you > get two separate 110 volt circuits, but a 220 volt circuit as well. > You can also charge your batteries at full power from a 220/110 volt > generator and get full power off both windings so the load is > balanced, leading to longer generator life. > Jon Hill > Sierra Solar Systems > > >Maybe one of you can help me with this question? What are the advantages > >of using the stacking cables for Trace DR inverters? We have a client who > >originally wanted 220 power so we ordered the DR stacking cables for this > >installation with two DR3624 inverters. Now they would like to have two > >110 lines, rather than the 220 line. > > > >I understand we can run one 110 circuit off of each of the two DR inverters > >with the stacking cables. But, it would just seem like a cleaner > >installation to forget the stacking cables and use one inverter for each of > >the two 110 circuits. Or, are there some advantages, that I am not aware > >of, with using the stacking cables with the two DR inverters? > > > >Ned van Steenwyk > >Soluciones Energeticas > >Honduras > > > >- - - - - - - > >To send a message to the list use: > > > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: > > > > >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > > >To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > > > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > > >for info contact: > >___________________________________________________________ > >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > ----------------- > > Sierra Solar Systems > 109-N Argall Way > Nevada City, CA 95959 > tech info and foreign orders: (530) 265-8441 > order line: (800) 51-SOLAR (US only) FAX: (530) 265-6151 > e-mail: > world wide web: > > Because of the high volume of e-mail to which I respond, please > leave _all_ of the previous message (unless it's unbearable) in > your reply so I can better remember your original message. > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ________________________________________________________________________ Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register From ellison at gisco.net Tue Jun 20 17:32:20 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison, Alternative Energy Systems) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 14:32:20 -0700 Subject: Inverter manufacturers, take over [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1388357369-212058698-960934382@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1145222608-951758591-961536740@topica.com> Group, Did this really happen? Did I have my head in the sand? I wish I had gotten the letter before the energy fair, I could have asked some of them. Sounds disturbing to me, Less competition is not good for the end user. Later, Bob -----Original Message----- From: Bill Roush, Solar Electric Systems [mailto:solarbeacon at email.msn.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 6:13 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Inverters [RE-wrenches] What are people's thoughts on Xantrex buying Trace, Statpower, Heart Interface, and Cruising Equipment? Just one big happy family now, eh? Best, Bill Roush Solar Electric Systems of Kansas City, Inc. 13700 W. 108th St. Lenexa, KS 66215 913-338-1939 800-632-9751 913-469-5522fax solarbeacon at email.msn.com www.solarbeacon.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ellison at gisco.net Tue Jun 20 17:42:57 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison, Alternative Energy Systems) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 14:42:57 -0700 Subject: New York net metering for wind [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1771784172-212058698-961537377@topica.com> Anybody heard anything about this? >From what I heard, each individual inverter HAS to be tested by the utility ONSITE to test waveform. I know very little (an admission, mark it down) and am just searching for more information, I am afraid that if this is true this will end net metering in New York....., The utility's must have laughed themselves to sleep the night that this passed. Later, Bob - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From richard.perez at homepower.com Tue Jun 20 19:41:28 2000 From: richard.perez at homepower.com (Richard Perez, Home Power magazine) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 16:41:28 -0700 Subject: Inverter manufacturers, take over [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1145222608-951758591-961536740@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1145222608-951758591-961536740@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.970296668-212058698-961544488@topica.com> Hello Bob It's the truth.... Richard >Group, >Did this really happen? Did I have my head in the sand? >I wish I had gotten the letter before the energy fair, I could have asked >some of them. > >Sounds disturbing to me, Less competition is not good for the end user. > >Later, >Bob > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Bill Roush, Solar Electric Systems [mailto:solarbeacon at email.msn.com] >Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 6:13 PM >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Subject: Inverters [RE-wrenches] > >What are people's thoughts on Xantrex buying Trace, Statpower, Heart >Interface, and Cruising Equipment? Just one big happy family now, eh? > >Best, >Bill Roush >Solar Electric Systems of Kansas City, Inc. >13700 W. 108th St. >Lenexa, KS 66215 >913-338-1939 >800-632-9751 >913-469-5522fax >solarbeacon at email.msn.com >www.solarbeacon.com > > > > > >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: > >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > >To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >for info contact: >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: > >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > >To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >for info contact: >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics ------------------------------------ Richard Perez Home Power PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA Tele: 530-475-3179 FAX: 530-475-0836 Subscriptions: 800-707-6585 mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com Web: http://www.homepower.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solenergy at optinet.hn Tue Jun 20 20:00:26 2000 From: solenergy at optinet.hn (Ned van Steenwyk, Soluciones Energeticas) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 17:00:26 -0700 Subject: Inverter manufacturers, take over [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1145222608-951758591-961536740@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1388357369-212058698-960934382@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.334679223-212058698-961545626@topica.com> Go to xantrex.com on the net and you can read their news releases on this. Xantrex purchased Statpower and Heart, then Trace and Xantrex merged. Ned van Steenwyk Soluciones Energeticas Honduras At 02:32 PM 20/06/2000 -0700, you wrote: >Group, >Did this really happen? Did I have my head in the sand? >I wish I had gotten the letter before the energy fair, I could have asked >some of them. > >Sounds disturbing to me, Less competition is not good for the end user. > >Later, >Bob > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Bill Roush, Solar Electric Systems [mailto:solarbeacon at email.msn.com] >Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 6:13 PM >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Subject: Inverters [RE-wrenches] > >What are people's thoughts on Xantrex buying Trace, Statpower, Heart >Interface, and Cruising Equipment? Just one big happy family now, eh? > >Best, >Bill Roush >Solar Electric Systems of Kansas City, Inc. >13700 W. 108th St. >Lenexa, KS 66215 >913-338-1939 >800-632-9751 >913-469-5522fax >solarbeacon at email.msn.com >www.solarbeacon.com > > > > > >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: > >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > >To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >for info contact: >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > >To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >for info contact: >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From global at sover.net Wed Jun 21 00:18:30 2000 From: global at sover.net (Jeffrey Wolfe, Global Resources) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 21:18:30 -0700 Subject: Inverter manufacturers, take over [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.577144111-212058698-961561110@topica.com> What was also interesting at the fair was to see who's coming into, or back into, the inverter market. Vanner has what looks like it might be a nice product (lot's of wait and see on that one, since I personally experienced a BP-40 machine), Fire Wind and Rain is in engineering on a line of small grid-tie batteryless stuff, and Applied Power had a new unit from Switzerland (named the "Joker"?). So one "benefit" of the consolidation of Trace/Stat/Heart is that we may get more inverter manufacturers and more inovation. Fair was GREAT. More vendors than ever, but sure was strange having a solar fair inside on a sunny day! Jeff ---------- From: Bob Ellison, Alternative Energy Systems[SMTP:ellison at gisco.net] Reply To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 5:32 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Inverter manufacturers, take over [RE-wrenches] Group, Did this really happen? Did I have my head in the sand? I wish I had gotten the letter before the energy fair, I could have asked some of them. Sounds disturbing to me, Less competition is not good for the end user. Later, Bob -----Original Message----- From: Bill Roush, Solar Electric Systems [mailto:solarbeacon at email.msn.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 6:13 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Inverters [RE-wrenches] What are people's thoughts on Xantrex buying Trace, Statpower, Heart Interface, and Cruising Equipment? Just one big happy family now, eh? Best, Bill Roush Solar Electric Systems of Kansas City, Inc. 13700 W. 108th St. Lenexa, KS 66215 913-338-1939 800-632-9751 913-469-5522fax solarbeacon at email.msn.com www.solarbeacon.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From joy.anderson at homepower.com Wed Jun 21 21:10:39 2000 From: joy.anderson at homepower.com (Joy Anderson, Home Power) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 18:10:39 -0700 Subject: NYC request for panels [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1807078597-951758591-960916204@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1807078597-951758591-960916204@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1563371877-951758591-961636239@topica.com> Hi Wrenches, I received this email requesting help. joy *** __________ At 2:50 PM +0000 6/19/00, mark garten wrote: > hi, > >I am looking for a few places in or around NYC that have solar panels >that might be used as a background to shoot a portrait against. I am >having no luck locating them, any help would be great. > >TIA > >Mark Garten Joy Anderson Associate Editor, Home Power magazine NAD Certified Sign Language Interpreter joy.anderson at homepower.com Home Power magazine: The Hands-On Journal of Home-Made Power Download each current issue free! www.homepower.com Subscriptions, back issues, books, CD-ROMs: 800-707-6585 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cpae1 at aol.com Wed Jun 21 21:19:31 2000 From: cpae1 at aol.com (Frank Fowler, Crystal Pines Alt. Energy ) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 18:19:31 -0700 Subject: NYC request for panels [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1257008412-212058698-961636771@topica.com> Have them get a hold of Alternative Power Inc. @, www.altpower.com or 212-791-7730. Frank Fowler Crystal Pines Alternative Energy Located in the Sierra foothills, just 20 miles southeast of Chico, CA. www.solarenergy-alt.com 530-532-1972 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From falk at investusa.net Sat Jun 24 12:17:26 2000 From: falk at investusa.net (Ken C. Falk, CCIM) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 09:17:26 -0700 Subject: South Dakota lead. [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1057234303-212058698-961863446@topica.com> Gentlemen (and Ladies): I may have a lead for someone. Who is near Salem, South Dakota? Here is his requirement message, just received: "Ken, I am retiring in about 11 months and have ordered a pickup and will be getting a 5th wheel soon and want to add solor power to the 5th wheel. I have 16 deep cycle batteries already so I would be interested in what you have and prices. We will be doing a good deal of traveling." Regards, Ken Falk AB4JB Ken C. Falk, CCIM* E-mail: falk at investusa.net Back-up E-mail: kenfalk at hotmail.com Kenneth C. Falk Real Estate Broker, Inc. Commercial, Investment & Industrial Real Estate 1282 Poplar Hill Road Lexington, Virginia 24450-7332 USA (540) 464-3405 Fax: (540) 464-4200 Web site: http://www.investusa.net/ (*Certified Commercial Investment Member) - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From falk at investusa.net Sat Jun 24 12:17:26 2000 From: falk at investusa.net (Ken C. Falk, CCIM) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 09:17:26 -0700 Subject: South Dakota lead. [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1057234303-212058698-961863446@topica.com> Gentlemen (and Ladies): I may have a lead for someone. Who is near Salem, South Dakota? Here is his requirement message, just received: "Ken, I am retiring in about 11 months and have ordered a pickup and will be getting a 5th wheel soon and want to add solor power to the 5th wheel. I have 16 deep cycle batteries already so I would be interested in what you have and prices. We will be doing a good deal of traveling." Regards, Ken Falk AB4JB Ken C. Falk, CCIM* E-mail: falk at investusa.net Back-up E-mail: kenfalk at hotmail.com Kenneth C. Falk Real Estate Broker, Inc. Commercial, Investment & Industrial Real Estate 1282 Poplar Hill Road Lexington, Virginia 24450-7332 USA (540) 464-3405 Fax: (540) 464-4200 Web site: http://www.investusa.net/ (*Certified Commercial Investment Member) - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Sat Jun 24 20:58:24 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 17:58:24 -0700 Subject: Duravolt Modules [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.99088407-212058698-961894704@topica.com> Gang, Anybody had any experience with Duravolt modules? My understanding is that they are actually Kyocera modules with the glass removed and tedlar added to the front and a sheet of aluminum to the back and then are marketed as "bullet proof". I saw my first set on two different systems (both less than two years old) for the Forrest Service the other day and both system were not performing as expected. The best I can tell I am looking at a ground fault problem. I am looking forward to hearing from you all with any ideas. System one is a battery less 90 volt water pumping system that has never pumped much water to speak of. The pump had burned up several times or maybe its the motor but everything was a little confusing as I spoke to about 7 different Forrest service people the whole day who all had there own ideas. The well is even a little questionable. I took all sorts of measurements and all of them seemed to be in line except the 30-40 volts from the neg. to ground? I shorted the panels through my Fluke 87 and had what I would have expected for short circuit current (~3 amps) and OC voltage was something like 17-19 but these quality modules had no sort of info on the back nor could anyone provide me with any. I unhooked all the grounds and still had this 30-40 volts from neg to ground. I then took a module off the tracker and measured 1.6 volts from the + to the metal backing of the module. The - measured 2.1 volts to the metal backing. What do you think? Are the modules screwed up? Next system has the same modules and is used at the shower house for lights. It has 300 watts of solar along with 450 amphours of battery and won't run 40 watts of lights more than a couple of hours. Batteries are pretty much new. I suspected a ground fault on these as well. Here is where my theory is a little shakey. Suspecting a ground fault I had them disconnect the array at sunset and the lights ran all night long for the first time! The charge controller is a ProStar30 and I am pretty sure that they have "night time disconnect" feature but of course that would only be on the positive. If the fault was on the negative then could the system leak enough current at night to initiate the LVD within a few hours? If anyone has any ideas or needs I'd love to hear from you. If you need some more details don't hesitate to ask for them. They want to put a new pump in the hole but I am having them hold off until I can figure out this voltage to ground issue. Of course the campground is closed until I get the problem fixed. I didn't put the system in and this was the first time I ever even heard of it. Some electrician put it in and did he do a number. Between him and Kyocera (they won't return calls to the Forrest Service), solar in my neck of the woods sure has a bad name. He is refusing to come back so now they call a solar guy. I bet I'm not the first one of us to ever experience this! What strikes me is that I have seen a whole bunch of screwed up systems put in terribly but they always seem to work albeit not safely. But these two systems should be pretty simple and they don't work and both of them have these metal backed Duravolt Modules. Thanks Travis Creswell Ozark Solar Neosho, Missouri - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Sat Jun 24 20:58:24 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 17:58:24 -0700 Subject: Duravolt Modules [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.99088407-212058698-961894704@topica.com> Gang, Anybody had any experience with Duravolt modules? My understanding is that they are actually Kyocera modules with the glass removed and tedlar added to the front and a sheet of aluminum to the back and then are marketed as "bullet proof". I saw my first set on two different systems (both less than two years old) for the Forrest Service the other day and both system were not performing as expected. The best I can tell I am looking at a ground fault problem. I am looking forward to hearing from you all with any ideas. System one is a battery less 90 volt water pumping system that has never pumped much water to speak of. The pump had burned up several times or maybe its the motor but everything was a little confusing as I spoke to about 7 different Forrest service people the whole day who all had there own ideas. The well is even a little questionable. I took all sorts of measurements and all of them seemed to be in line except the 30-40 volts from the neg. to ground? I shorted the panels through my Fluke 87 and had what I would have expected for short circuit current (~3 amps) and OC voltage was something like 17-19 but these quality modules had no sort of info on the back nor could anyone provide me with any. I unhooked all the grounds and still had this 30-40 volts from neg to ground. I then took a module off the tracker and measured 1.6 volts from the + to the metal backing of the module. The - measured 2.1 volts to the metal backing. What do you think? Are the modules screwed up? Next system has the same modules and is used at the shower house for lights. It has 300 watts of solar along with 450 amphours of battery and won't run 40 watts of lights more than a couple of hours. Batteries are pretty much new. I suspected a ground fault on these as well. Here is where my theory is a little shakey. Suspecting a ground fault I had them disconnect the array at sunset and the lights ran all night long for the first time! The charge controller is a ProStar30 and I am pretty sure that they have "night time disconnect" feature but of course that would only be on the positive. If the fault was on the negative then could the system leak enough current at night to initiate the LVD within a few hours? If anyone has any ideas or needs I'd love to hear from you. If you need some more details don't hesitate to ask for them. They want to put a new pump in the hole but I am having them hold off until I can figure out this voltage to ground issue. Of course the campground is closed until I get the problem fixed. I didn't put the system in and this was the first time I ever even heard of it. Some electrician put it in and did he do a number. Between him and Kyocera (they won't return calls to the Forrest Service), solar in my neck of the woods sure has a bad name. He is refusing to come back so now they call a solar guy. I bet I'm not the first one of us to ever experience this! What strikes me is that I have seen a whole bunch of screwed up systems put in terribly but they always seem to work albeit not safely. But these two systems should be pretty simple and they don't work and both of them have these metal backed Duravolt Modules. Thanks Travis Creswell Ozark Solar Neosho, Missouri - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From microhydro at dplus.net Sun Jun 25 13:20:37 2000 From: microhydro at dplus.net (Ron Macleod) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 10:20:37 -0700 Subject: New Web Site [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.784246220-951758591-961953637@topica.com> Sharkey - please show our site address on my wrenches profile. Our new site is at www.waterturbine.com - It's up and running - still building -Thanks Much - Ron - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From microhydro at dplus.net Sun Jun 25 13:20:37 2000 From: microhydro at dplus.net (Ron Macleod) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 10:20:37 -0700 Subject: New Web Site [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.784246220-951758591-961953637@topica.com> Sharkey - please show our site address on my wrenches profile. Our new site is at www.waterturbine.com - It's up and running - still building -Thanks Much - Ron - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From i2p at aol.com Sun Jun 25 14:43:14 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (Don Loweburg, Offline) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 11:43:14 -0700 Subject: Duravolt Modules [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1960511600-951758591-961958594@topica.com> Hi Travis, I think you will find the modules are not producing. Ive had experience with these modules on some com sites. We had to replace all of them. My understanding is that this is a design problem. Differential thermal expansion between the AL back plate and the silicon cells fractures the interconnects. Best Don Loweburg - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From i2p at aol.com Sun Jun 25 14:43:14 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (Don Loweburg, Offline) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 11:43:14 -0700 Subject: Duravolt Modules [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1960511600-951758591-961958594@topica.com> Hi Travis, I think you will find the modules are not producing. Ive had experience with these modules on some com sites. We had to replace all of them. My understanding is that this is a design problem. Differential thermal expansion between the AL back plate and the silicon cells fractures the interconnects. Best Don Loweburg - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Sun Jun 25 21:57:45 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (R. Sparks Scott) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 18:57:45 -0700 Subject: New Web Site [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.784246220-951758591-961953637@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1895421013-212058698-961984665@topica.com> Ron; No problem, it's done! -S - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Sun Jun 25 21:57:45 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (R. Sparks Scott) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 18:57:45 -0700 Subject: New Web Site [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.784246220-951758591-961953637@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1895421013-212058698-961984665@topica.com> Ron; No problem, it's done! -S - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunpwr at jps.net Mon Jun 26 15:52:53 2000 From: sunpwr at jps.net (Chuck Heath, SunPower) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:52:53 -0700 Subject: Non-Commercial RE websites [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.725477571-951758591-962049173@topica.com> Here's a list of non-commercial RE pages I've noted. Feel free to add or correct to it. Cordially, Chuck -=-=- Alternative Energy Net (see Equivalents page for converting LPG cf/hr. to gallons/hour) www.altenergy.net/ American Council for an Energy Efficient Economy http://aceee.org/consumerguide/ Center for RE & Sustainable Technology http://solstice.crest.org/index.shtml Environmental Protection Agency - solar www.epa.gov/solar EnergyStar Guide www.energystar.gov/ EREN - Energy Efficiency & Renewable Energy Network www.eren.doe.gov/pv/ National Renewable Energy Laboratory www.nrel.gov National Center for Photovoltaics www.nrel.gov/ncpv/ National Fire Protection Association (NEC - National Electrical Code) www.nfpa.org Southwest Technology Development Institute, New Mexico State University www.nmsu.edu/~tdi Sandia National Laboratories, Albuquerque, NM www.sandia.gov/pv State Guides on RE and Energy Efficiency http://solstice.crest.org/efficiency/state-guides U.S. State Rebate Programs http://www-solar.mck.ncsu.edu/xsearch.htm PV Users Mailing List: email majordomo at crest.org In the body type "subscribe pvusers youremailaddress" (without the quote marks). PV Users Archive http://aurora.crest.org/resources/emlists/pvusers/archives/index.html -=-=- - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From gosolar at xtra.co.nz Mon Jun 26 18:24:10 2000 From: gosolar at xtra.co.nz (John Veix, Solar Electric Specialists) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:24:10 -0700 Subject: Non-Commercial RE websites [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.725477571-951758591-962049173@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.22123682-212058698-962058250@topica.com> That's just the type of information I've been looking for - thanks Chuck and I hope that it gets expanded on from others. Keep it up !! John Veix Christchurch, N.Z. - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunpwr at jps.net Mon Jun 26 19:39:53 2000 From: sunpwr at jps.net (Chuck Heath, SunPower) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:39:53 -0700 Subject: Non-Commercial RE websites [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1200201735-212058698-962062793@topica.com> Per Windy Dankoff's fine suggestion, please add: Solar Energy International - Hands On Education e: sei at solarenergy.org www.solarenergy.org Other suggestions/corrections most welcome. Cordially, Chuck Heath, SUN-tricity®, "Plugging into Sunshine sine l989" Big Oak Flat, CA - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cvsolar at aol.com Mon Jun 26 21:10:33 2000 From: cvsolar at aol.com (John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 18:10:33 -0700 Subject: Quick test of UX612 [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2087481846-951758591-962068233@topica.com> For general information, I did a quick test of a Trace UX612 that I am using as a power source in my truck with 2 Trojan L16PF batteries. The old part of my house (including my office) is powered thru a single plug and outlet from my SW4024. It includes the original circuit breakers and switching stuff from my old system which had a Tripplite 500, Trace 612, then a Powerstar 1300 . This plugged in line was originally the generator input thru a transfer switch. I just pulled the plug on the old system and with a long extension cord, plugged the house into my truck. I ran the washing machine (top loader), my computer, lights and fax machine all at the same time. The lights did pulse a little when the washer agitated. I was impressed! Oh, I forgot to mention the old 35 watt Sansui Stereo system with system cranking out some serious sound. The test was originally to look for noise on the stereo. It was quiet. Also I turned up the thermostat on my gas furnace and it also ran fine. The powerstar 1300 would not run the controller on the gas furnace correctly because of the mod sine. Does anyone else have experience with the UX series as a house system? The only thing I found that acted funny was my phone in the fax machine. When I was getting messages from the telephone co voice mail, the commands did not work right. Hooked back up to the sw and it worked fine again. This little test tells me the old Trace 612 is still alive and well in a new white box and performs better than ever. I'm encouraged to set up more small systems for the needy with this little gem. John Blittersdorf CV Solar - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From powersense at horizon.co.fk Tue Jun 27 13:46:00 2000 From: powersense at horizon.co.fk (Clive Wilkins, PowerSense) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 10:46:00 -0700 Subject: TRACE SW with auto genset start/stop [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1423188021-212058698-962127960@topica.com> Hi guys small problem with SW4548E - generator starts OK on auto when battery reaches preset load level, but fails to stop when load has gone off. Also fails to stop when max run time has elapsed. Any thoughts welcome! cheers Clive in the midwintry Falklands Clive Wilkinson PowerSense Falkland Islands powersense at horizon.co.fk http://www.falklandwool.com tel +500 42202 fax +500 42203 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solarman4 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 27 13:59:09 2000 From: solarman4 at yahoo.com (Mark Downing) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 10:59:09 -0700 Subject: TRACE SW with auto genset start/stop [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1987061209-212058698-962128749@topica.com> A "dirty little secret" about the max run time LED is that it only lets you know that you guessed incorrectly as to how long the generator would run when you set the "max run time". It's an idiot light. One would assume that "max run time" meant that the generator would be stopped at this point, but it doesn't. Sounds like a simple software fix to me. I would guess that the generator isn't stopping because the charged parameters aren't being met. Mark Downing Hurshtown Alternative Power --- "Clive Wilkins, PowerSense" wrote: > Hi guys > > small problem with SW4548E - generator starts OK on > auto when battery > reaches preset load level, but fails to stop when > load has gone off. > Also fails to stop when max run time has elapsed. > > Any thoughts welcome! > > cheers > > Clive in the midwintry Falklands > > Clive Wilkinson > PowerSense > Falkland Islands > > powersense at horizon.co.fk > http://www.falklandwool.com > > tel +500 42202 > fax +500 42203 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Tue Jun 27 18:18:47 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 15:18:47 -0700 Subject: Quick test of UX612 [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.2087481846-951758591-962068233@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1338501435-951758591-962144327@topica.com> Sure would be interesting to me to learn which conventional washing machine runs on the UX612 inverter. I have found that most are right on the margin of a 1500 watt inverter, but you had one agitating and spinning on the 612. Or was it a ringer washer, that is understandable? But you just said a top loader, so if there is a conventional type automatic washer at conventional price that runs on UX612, please let us know.. ???? Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems ----- Original Message ----- From: John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind To: Sent: Monday, June 26, 2000 6:10 PM Subject: Quick test of UX612 [RE-wrenches] > For general information, I did a quick test of a Trace UX612 that I am using > as a power source in my truck with 2 Trojan L16PF batteries. I ran the washing > machine (top loader), my computer, lights and fax machine all at the same > time. The lights did pulse a little when the washer agitated> John Blittersdorf > CV Solar > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solenergy at optinet.hn Tue Jun 27 18:44:21 2000 From: solenergy at optinet.hn (Ned van Steenwyk, Soluciones Energeticas) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 15:44:21 -0700 Subject: Quick test of UX612 [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.2087481846-951758591-962068233@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1667082707-212058698-962145861@topica.com> Does anyone else have experience with the UX series as a house system? I'm encouraged to set up more small systems for the needy with this little gem. > >John Blittersdorf >CV Solar We have installed UX1112s for several customers as back-up power systems and also for stand alone systems, just to convert 12vdc to 110vac, sometimes backed up with a generator. They work fine and are a little less expensive than DR1512s, which is an important factor for most of our customers here in Central America. Ned van Steenwyk Soluciones Energeticas Honduras - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From telliot at wagonmaker.com Tue Jun 27 19:45:10 2000 From: telliot at wagonmaker.com (Tom Elliot) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 16:45:10 -0700 Subject: gen out-of-gas and 4024 damage [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.259581096-212058698-962149510@topica.com> I have images of the data I got during a test of my 4024 recently. This was in response to a request from Trace for some info on my report of potential problems with overvoltages and FETs. The images can be found at http://www.wagonmaker.com/tracedata.html This is on the replacement 4024 I put in after sending in my original unit for repair. Unfortunately, before I heard back from the tech on the problem with the original unit I allowed the generator to run out of gas again during a charging cycle. My suspicions are that even that one incident was enough to start the damage again to the FETs. >From looking at the data is is apparent that at certain loads the inverter is putting out power at greater than 5% THD and at others the THD is within spec. I'd love feedback on this and also any ideas anyone has for further testing. I have access to some pretty good test equipment (which is mostly over my head) so I can probably provide a lot of info. The data on the website was taken from a Fluke 97 Tom Elliot Guffey Energy Works Solar Energy Education http://www.wagonmaker.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cvsolar at aol.com Tue Jun 27 22:50:32 2000 From: cvsolar at aol.com (John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 19:50:32 -0700 Subject: Quick test of UX612 [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.586033314-212058698-962160632@topica.com> Steve, The washer is a Roper (which I understand is made by Maytag as a cheaper brand). It is a medium size, analog controls, no frills but is not a wringer. Just a regular washing machine. It seems to pound on my SW4024 almost as hard as on the UX612. It's got me baffled. John Blittersdorf CVSolar - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From allan at positivenergy.com Wed Jun 28 17:08:10 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 14:08:10 -0700 Subject: Duravolt [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1627371477-951758591-962226490@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 1597 bytes Desc: not available URL: From allan at positivenergy.com Wed Jun 28 17:36:53 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 14:36:53 -0700 Subject: Clive re 4548E [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.810282802-212058698-962228213@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 1811 bytes Desc: not available URL: From powersense at horizon.co.fk Wed Jun 28 21:35:45 2000 From: powersense at horizon.co.fk (Clive Wilkins, PowerSense) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 18:35:45 -0700 Subject: failure of auto gen stop [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.810282802-212058698-962228213@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.509587076-212058698-962242545@topica.com> Clive, We don't use this model in the US, but I suspect the logic is the same. Even tho' the manual says so, the max run time setting doesn't shut off the gennie, it just sends an error message. Learned this from tech support. . Hi Allan thanks for responding. Logic is the same, yes. Visited site today, have increased absorption time on the charging menu and will see what happens. <<<>> Yes is set at five minutes but gen still didn't go off. Probably because charge parameters hadn't been met (after eight hours gen run time). I get frustrated when products don't match the spec... <<<<<>>>>> Yes they do - even though the bath water goes the opposite way to yours down the plughole, being the southern hemisphere :) cheers Clive Clive Wilkinson PowerSense Falkland Islands powersense at horizon.co.fk http://www.falklandwool.com tel +500 42202 fax +500 42203 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Thu Jun 29 09:07:38 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 06:07:38 -0700 Subject: Duravolt [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1827550631-212058698-962284058@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 2779 bytes Desc: not available URL: From amazonpower at hotmail.com Sat Jul 1 22:20:42 2000 From: amazonpower at hotmail.com (Donna Fischer, Amazon Power) Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 19:20:42 -0700 Subject: SW4048 giving me grief [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.964550315-951758591-962504442@topica.com> Hi folks - I could really use some help. I've now installed three SW4048 inverters, two in one system, and in both cases they're overcharging the batteries. On the first set I set the HVD to 57 volts and, after reading some of the comments here I set them on sell. They're still bubbling the batteries! The second set (both systems have 1165 ah Hup batteries) have been at 62 volts for a few days. It's a construction site and they're running a generator through the inverter. Today two cordless drill batteries got fried while charging and the general contractor is upset, and I don't have any real answers for him. He wants me to go fix everything and explain what's going on and I don't really know. Help! ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Sat Jul 1 23:21:34 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (R. Sparks Scott) Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 20:21:34 -0700 Subject: SW4048 giving me grief [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.964550315-951758591-962504442@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2067008865-951758591-962508094@topica.com> Donna; Here's my take on the SW4048 situation: 1) It's NOT possible to 'SELL' power to a generator, this is an invalid mode for a generator-connected inverter. You should have it set for 'FLOAT'. 2) You should be setting the 'Bulk' and 'Float' voltages under menu item 10-Battery Charging to something like Bulk-57.6 and Float-54.4. HVD will not properly maintain battery charge alone, make sure that the 'BULK' and 'FLOAT' are set to within the battery manufacturers specifications. 3) Be sure to check the output voltage of the generator as read on the SW menu item 4-Meters. It should be the same as nominal line voltage, 120 volts. Also check the generator frequency, 60 Hz. In a system I installed just yesterday on a generator-connectd system, they had lost several electronic power supplies due to *under* voltage, the generator was putting out 105 volts at 58 Hz. Most high quality construction-grade generators will have both voltage and frequency adjustments. Make sure that they are set right. 4) In menu 4-Meters, also check the Inverter output volts. Mine usually runs about 125 volts. 5) I have seen cordless drill chargers fry on mod sine power, but never SW series inverter power. In fact, we charge 250 two-way radio batteries for a week using a SW2512, and the batteries eat it up! I think you have a generator problem, not an inverter problem (aside from overcharging the inverter batteries, that is.) Let us know if this helps, or if you have other questions, please include as many speciifcs of the system as you can. -S - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Sat Jul 1 23:52:41 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 20:52:41 -0700 Subject: SW4048 giving me grief [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.964550315-951758591-962504442@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.42682693-951758591-962509961@topica.com> You set the HVD to 57 volts and its still bubbling the batteries. You did not say if the battery voltage was at 57 or had exceeded it? If not exceeded, its a function of the batteries, set it lower. If it has gone 1 or 2 or so volts over 57, it can be a function of the temp compensation in the inverter, and you can set the voltage etc to account for that. Are you using the temp sensor and is it attached to the battery? The drill chargers should not be having trouble on a sine wave in my experience. I have not heard of any interference by the Trace waveform of SW to these but there are two other things that can do it that should be easy to check. 1. Did you check the actual AC voltage input to them? It happened with the generator running so that could be a voltage factor. I did have one melt down but the cause turned out to be that rain had flooded the Makita charger overnight. 2. This may be the real answer: If the inverter goes into search mode and back out, cycling with a partial load from just the charger on overnight, each time it starts up and shuts down it can reset the cordless tool automatic charger to full bulk mode for a few seconds, so constant cycling like that is a hazard to the chargers. And it will do that if the charger is the only load. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems ----- Original Message ----- From: Donna Fischer, Amazon Power To: Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2000 7:20 PM Subject: SW4048 giving me grief [RE-wrenches] > Hi folks - I could really use some help. I've now installed three SW4048 > inverters, two in one system, and in both cases they're overcharging the > batteries. On the first set I set the HVD to 57 volts and, after reading > some of the comments here I set them on sell. They're still bubbling the > batteries! The second set (both systems have 1165 ah Hup batteries) have > been at 62 volts for a few days. It's a construction site and they're > running a generator through the inverter. Today two cordless drill > batteries got fried while charging and the general contractor is upset, and > I don't have any real answers for him. He wants me to go fix everything and > explain what's going on and I don't really know. Help! > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Sun Jul 2 00:12:06 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (R. Sparks Scott) Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 21:12:06 -0700 Subject: SW4048 giving me grief [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.964550315-951758591-962504442@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.815248431-951758591-962511126@topica.com> Donna; After thinking about it some more, I'll offer a few more thoughts about your predicament: 1) You don't mention it , but if there are PV's or other DC sources of charging current for the batteries, you'll need a charge controller that can handle the full DC current of the output of the array. The SW inverters can only act as charge controllers in SELL mode *while connected to the grid*, so they have somewhere to pump the extra current when the batteries become full. 2) Your systems may never be entering 'FLOAT' mode due to generator over/under voltage/frequency. Watch the "AC 2 in good" LED on the front panel. If it flashes intermittently, and the "inverting" LED comes on, your inverter has disconnected from the generator for some reason. When this happens, the bulk charge timer is reset and you have to wait until the absorption time (Menu 10-Battery Charging) has been satisfied all over again. If this is happening, try to find out and correct the reason for the disconnect (the generator voltage or frequency is out of bounds).You might also try setting the absorption time lower than the default, but this is a stop-gap measure, it should run all day and night in float, as long as the generator isn't shut off. Which brings up another item, is the generator being shut off a lot? Or perhaps heavy loads are making the line voltage sag below the inverters lower limit? 3) 62 volts sounds a lot like an equalizing voltage. Are you sure that the inverter is in 'SEARCH' or 'ON' mode, not 'EQ' (equalize)? Anybody else think of anything not mentioned here? -S - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From amazonpower at hotmail.com Sun Jul 2 00:35:50 2000 From: amazonpower at hotmail.com (Donna Fischer, Amazon Power) Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 21:35:50 -0700 Subject: SW4048 giving me grief [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1594701894-212058698-962512550@topica.com> Thanks guys - here's a little more info for clarification. The system with dual inverters is grid tied - no generator. I will double check those settings but I beleive they are in the range you suggest. I checked the output voltage on the single inverter system, but not with the generator on - they've been using this generator on this site for months, maybe years (it's been one of those long drawn out affairs). The two things that have changed with the generator (that I know of) is 1)they moved it to a shed that has the EZ wire center in it and 2)I wired it into the r.e. system. I haven't gotten it together for the inverter to start/stop it automatically (waiting for parts) but I thought it was a good idea to integrate it into the system. The battery voltage had reached 64 and were gassing like crazy. The batteries are in a basement with a very steady temperature of about 65 degrees, so I didn't attach the temperature sensor. The suggestions both of you gave make sense and give me something to chew on - between you and the I Ching, I'm feeling much better! Thanks, D ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunwise at win.bright.net Mon Jul 3 20:52:36 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (Kurt Nelson, SunWise) Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 17:52:36 -0700 Subject: SW4048 giving me grief [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1386862988-212058698-962671956@topica.com> Back on the SW inverter problem from Donna and responded to by Steve. I really like Steve's caution about cordless tool battery chargers. Never thought of it that way, but with inverter cyclying in and out of sleep (I have seen this happen on may small induction loads), the tool battery regulator may not operate correctly. I have a client who has adjusted his DR's sleep setting to where his cordless shaver won't wake the inverter, but receives power when another device wakes the Trace. It has worked well for him but I could see the possible problem, espically if the inverter is cycyling as frequently as I have seen some do when connected to small cordelss chargers. On the battery bubbling, I am perhaps confused. I thought Donna might be adjusting the HVD of the Trace itself, not the setting that is actually designed to regulate charging. I don't have my manual in from of me, but there is a HVD setting that is set to shut off the Trace if the battery voltage should exceed design limits for the inverter. If Donna was changing this setting while float or bulk settings were left high?? Maybe it would be good to reset the inverter to factory spec's and reprogram to new, well thought-out settings. Kurt Nelson At 08:52 PM 7/1/00 -0700, you wrote: >You set the HVD to 57 volts and its still bubbling the batteries. You did >not say if the battery voltage was at 57 or had exceeded it? If not >exceeded, its a function of the batteries, set it lower. If it has gone 1 or >2 or so volts over 57, it can be a function of the temp compensation in the >inverter, and you can set the voltage etc to account for that. Are you using >the temp sensor and is it attached to the battery? > >The drill chargers should not be having trouble on a sine wave in my >experience. I have not heard of any interference by the Trace waveform of >SW to these but there are two other things that can do it that should be >easy to check. >1. Did you check the actual AC voltage input to them? It happened with the >generator running so that could be a voltage factor. I did have one melt >down but the cause turned out to be that rain had flooded the Makita charger >overnight. >2. This may be the real answer: If the inverter goes into search mode and >back out, cycling with a partial load from just the charger on overnight, >each time it starts up and shuts down it can reset the cordless tool >automatic charger to full bulk mode for a few seconds, so constant cycling >like that is a hazard to the chargers. And it will do that if the charger is >the only load. > >Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com >Backwoods Solar Electric Systems > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Donna Fischer, Amazon Power >To: >Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2000 7:20 PM >Subject: SW4048 giving me grief [RE-wrenches] > > >> Hi folks - I could really use some help. I've now installed three SW4048 >> inverters, two in one system, and in both cases they're overcharging the >> batteries. On the first set I set the HVD to 57 volts and, after reading >> some of the comments here I set them on sell. They're still bubbling the >> batteries! The second set (both systems have 1165 ah Hup batteries) have >> been at 62 volts for a few days. It's a construction site and they're >> running a generator through the inverter. Today two cordless drill >> batteries got fried while charging and the general contractor is upset, >and >> I don't have any real answers for him. He wants me to go fix everything >and >> explain what's going on and I don't really know. Help! >> ________________________________________________________________________ >> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com >> >> - - - - - - - >> To send a message to the list use: >> >> To view an archive of previous messages go to: >> >> To unsubscribe send an email message to: > >> >> To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > >> >> Hosted by Home Power magazine: >> >> for info contact: >> ___________________________________________________________ >> T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >> Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics >> > >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > >To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >for info contact: >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Tue Jul 4 00:38:20 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (R. Sparks Scott) Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 21:38:20 -0700 Subject: SW4048 giving me grief [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1386862988-212058698-962671956@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1851771122-951758591-962685500@topica.com> At 05:52 PM 7/3/00 -0700, you wrote: >On the battery bubbling, I am perhaps confused. I thought Donna might be >adjusting the HVD of the Trace itself, not the setting that is actually >designed to regulate charging. This deserves discussion, the LVD is not intended as a charge controller, but a protection circuit to prevent the inverter from being damaged from over voltages. -S - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ghigbee at efn.org Tue Jul 4 18:56:39 2000 From: ghigbee at efn.org (Gary Higbee, Solutions from the Land) Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 15:56:39 -0700 Subject: Deep water... [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1594701894-212058698-962512550@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1668958979-951758591-962751399@topica.com> Hi Wrenches, I'd appreciate some help with a water-pumping/household design I'm working on. I'm fine with the array-sizing for the household, but the water-pumping is a challenge. We've got a lift of about 425' from the water in the well to the big tank. We'd also like as close to 5,000 gallons per day as possible. At this point my client understands this will greatly exceed his budget, but would still like to get at least 2,000 gallons per day. I'll give you a few parameters and pose a few questions: PARAMETERS location=near Yakima WA (east of cascades) tracking hours per day in summer=10 well-depth=330' static-level depth=230' available gpm=over 50 (small aquifer) additional lift up hill to 5,000 gallon tank=175' design total lift with drawdown=425' desired gallons per day summer=5,000 (probably unrealistic, given budget) minimum gallons per day summer=around 2,000 ADDITIONSL My client already has a propane generator (which will need the autostart stuff). It appears that the initial system budget won't allow much of an array, so we're looking at inverter(s), batteries, well-pump, with generator charging to start with. ESSENTIALS Pumping scheme that lifts 2,000 gallons plus per day in the summer, with a lift of 425'. Includes something like 6kwH/day domestic use. Winter water pumping needs will be dramatically less, but much less sun means we'll want to use the large solar arrays for both water pumping AND domestic use. The challenge here is that ideally we might like something like a Solarjack SCS pump (running PV-direct at 180 volts) for summer pumping, but also be able to use the same array for inverter/domestic use. This way we don't have a big pumping array sitting around in the winter, when we'll need all we can get for the house. OPTIONS/QUESTIONS At this point I see several options, but all have challenges (sounds like real life!): 1) Use a Solarjack SCS pump. We'd need a big, efficient transformer to convert a 48-volt nominal battery bank into the 180 volts at almost 8 amps the Solarjack SCS pump wants. Running the model 4-550 with PCB8-180 controller would give around 3,000 gallons in our 10 tracking hours--a good number. Any ideas? 2) Use two Sunrise pumps. This lets us use a 48-volt system for pumping and inverter. The problem here is that we may be just out of reach of the model 5222 (1.6 gpm @ 400'), and we would be looking at the model 5218 and 1.2 gpm. Doubling this (two pumps) gives us 2.4gpm. Running this for 10 tracking hours only gives us about 1400 gallons per day for something over $4,000 in pumps/controllers. But it does so with great efficiency (about half the array of the above). It probably isn't practical to size the battery bank so that we continue to run the pumps long after dark, so we seem limited something like 2,000 gallons per day. 3) Use an AC pump with one SW inverter and a T-240 transformer. In my conversations with Trace I'm told to stick with something like a 3/4hp maximum for one SW (4024, 4048), with a locked-rotor amps safely in the range of the inverter. Since we don't want to dump the household stuff every time the pump starts this could be challenging for a 425' lift. 4) Use an AC pump with two DR 3624 inverters (two SW's are likely out of the budget) for a high-surge 240-volt source. This sounds workable but we're not getting sine-wave to the house (oh-well), and we're sorely lacking in generator control (750' from the house, in the snow and ice!). 5) Go with a big AC pump, and do the water pumping with the generator. This is likely the cheapest short-term solution, but it sounds yucky! HELP!? I'd sure appreciate some ideas here. THANK YOU! Gary ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gary Higbee (ghigbee at efn.org) (541)607-1818 Solutions from the Land--solar, wind, and hydro site analysis, design, and installation ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Tue Jul 4 19:04:20 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 16:04:20 -0700 Subject: SW4048 giving me grief [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1386862988-212058698-962671956@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.655038907-951758591-962751860@topica.com> Good point Kurt, I had read the HVD as if it was bulk setting as was the context. Maybe that was the answer, bulk was not set correctly, or it was on equalize instead of normal charge???. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Tue Jul 4 20:09:43 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 17:09:43 -0700 Subject: Deep water... [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1668958979-951758591-962751399@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.598223406-951758591-962755783@topica.com> That is a lot of lift and a lot of water both. You can always get a big pump and a huge tank and run the generator to operate the pump, since it seems it is to be the initial charging source anyway. With that situation you will want to have large loads all accomplished when the generator is on using power direct. If it is to be solar powered eventually, you might look into the Grundfos DC powered agricultural pumps sold by applied Power in Lacey Washington. I think they might handle such volumes, not sure. They run on 60 or more volts array direct and have inverter and AC motor within the sub-pump as I recall. But big $$ Solar arrays set for high voltage can be switched out of series and into parallel for 24 or 48 volt charging. A bank of transfer switches DPDT can do it, or even relays if switching daily when tanks are full. Its a lot of wiring and potentially troublesome contacts but it has been done. Just some ideas, I won't suggest which approach from your list is best here because all seem somewhat intimidating considering that it looks like the water requirement numbers and the project budget may just not fit together there. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Higbee, Solutions from the Land To: Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2000 3:56 PM Subject: Deep water... [RE-wrenches] . We've got a lift of about 425' from the water in the well to > the big tank. We'd also like as close to 5,000 gallons per day as possible. > At this point my client understands this will greatly exceed his budget, but > would still like to get at least 2,000 gallons per day. I'll give you a few > parameters and pose a few questions: - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From telliot at wagonmaker.com Wed Jul 5 00:31:55 2000 From: telliot at wagonmaker.com (Tom Elliot) Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 21:31:55 -0700 Subject: Deep water... [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1668958979-951758591-962751399@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.439856349-212058698-962771515@topica.com> Gary, If I read your parameters right (available gpm) you're getting 50 gallons a minute at least of recharge to the well. It doesn't sound to me as if you will exceed your recharge rate so drawdown isn't as much of an issue. You can use the pumps at close to their limit as long as you are secure in the idea they recharge rate won't change substantially. Tom Elliot Guffey Energy Works Solar Energy Education http://www.wagonmaker.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Higbee, Solutions from the Land" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2000 4:56 PM Subject: Deep water... [RE-wrenches] > Hi Wrenches, > > I'd appreciate some help with a water-pumping/household design I'm working > on. I'm fine with the array-sizing for the household, but the water-pumping > is a challenge. We've got a lift of about 425' from the water in the well to > the big tank. We'd also like as close to 5,000 gallons per day as possible. > At this point my client understands this will greatly exceed his budget, but > would still like to get at least 2,000 gallons per day. I'll give you a few > parameters and pose a few questions: > > PARAMETERS > location=near Yakima WA (east of cascades) > tracking hours per day in summer=10 > well-depth=330' > static-level depth=230' > available gpm=over 50 (small aquifer) > additional lift up hill to 5,000 gallon tank=175' > design total lift with drawdown=425' > desired gallons per day summer=5,000 (probably unrealistic, given budget) > minimum gallons per day summer=around 2,000 > > ADDITIONSL > My client already has a propane generator (which will need the autostart > stuff). It appears that the initial system budget won't allow much of an > array, so we're looking at inverter(s), batteries, well-pump, with generator > charging to start with. > > ESSENTIALS > Pumping scheme that lifts 2,000 gallons plus per day in the summer, with a > lift of 425'. Includes something like 6kwH/day domestic use. Winter water > pumping needs will be dramatically less, but much less sun means we'll want > to use the large solar arrays for both water pumping AND domestic use. The > challenge here is that ideally we might like something like a Solarjack SCS > pump (running PV-direct at 180 volts) for summer pumping, but also be able > to use the same array for inverter/domestic use. This way we don't have a > big pumping array sitting around in the winter, when we'll need all we can > get for the house. > > OPTIONS/QUESTIONS > At this point I see several options, but all have challenges (sounds like > real life!): > > 1) Use a Solarjack SCS pump. We'd need a big, efficient transformer to > convert a 48-volt nominal battery bank into the 180 volts at almost 8 amps > the Solarjack SCS pump wants. Running the model 4-550 with PCB8-180 > controller would give around 3,000 gallons in our 10 tracking hours--a good > number. Any ideas? > > 2) Use two Sunrise pumps. This lets us use a 48-volt system for pumping and > inverter. The problem here is that we may be just out of reach of the model > 5222 (1.6 gpm @ 400'), and we would be looking at the model 5218 and 1.2 > gpm. Doubling this (two pumps) gives us 2.4gpm. Running this for 10 tracking > hours only gives us about 1400 gallons per day for something over $4,000 in > pumps/controllers. But it does so with great efficiency (about half the > array of the above). It probably isn't practical to size the battery bank so > that we continue to run the pumps long after dark, so we seem limited > something like 2,000 gallons per day. > > 3) Use an AC pump with one SW inverter and a T-240 transformer. In my > conversations with Trace I'm told to stick with something like a 3/4hp > maximum for one SW (4024, 4048), with a locked-rotor amps safely in the > range of the inverter. Since we don't want to dump the household stuff every > time the pump starts this could be challenging for a 425' lift. > > 4) Use an AC pump with two DR 3624 inverters (two SW's are likely out of the > budget) for a high-surge 240-volt source. This sounds workable but we're not > getting sine-wave to the house (oh-well), and we're sorely lacking in > generator control (750' from the house, in the snow and ice!). > > 5) Go with a big AC pump, and do the water pumping with the generator. This > is likely the cheapest short-term solution, but it sounds yucky! > > HELP!? > I'd sure appreciate some ideas here. > > THANK YOU! > > Gary > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Gary Higbee (ghigbee at efn.org) > (541)607-1818 > Solutions from the Land--solar, > wind, and hydro site analysis, design, > and installation > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Wed Jul 5 10:08:01 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 07:08:01 -0700 Subject: Deep water... [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.763333596-951758591-962806081@topica.com> Gary, I did a job last summer with a standard AC pump at 500' lift. We used dual 3624's and they ran it with no problem along with the restt of the house's loads. A 3624 out surges a 4024. I think you should consider a dual PS2524 also. That will give your customer the auto gen start option in the future by adding a module to the PS. I did all the math on a recent quote and you can put a dual PS setup together for less than $6000 (retail) with DC circuit breakers, PS conduit housings, inverter bypasses etc. Basically a site built Power Panel is what I put together. Sounds like you have a pretty tough job to quote on your hands. You could remote start the generator with a simple setup especially if the generator is already a two-wire start type. Travis Creswell Ozark Solar - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From allan at positivenergy.com Wed Jul 5 11:42:10 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 08:42:10 -0700 Subject: Deep water... [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.679059618-212058698-962811730@topica.com> Gary, You have a good grasp of the options available. Sometimes you just can't get there from here. Being a SunRise fan for its simplicity and efficiency here in the arid Southwest, I would try to back up to the big picture first. You have acknowledged that GPD, total dynamic head, and budget don't all jive. Right, agreed. So let's go back and look at the load. Where do these 2K and 5K GPD figures come from? What does your client believe he needs to accomplish that requires this? And the key question: How can he accomplish his end result using less gallonage? Approach it same as a power system, using water efficiency like we preach electrical efficiency. Can he do a drip system? Can he run fewer head on that pasture? Can his 23 kids take shorter showers? The 180VDC/48VDC system sounds prohibitively complex and expensive--I haven't yet found contactors rated for that high a DC voltage, nor have I encountered an off-the-shelf way to convert generator AC to 180vDC for the near term. The SunRise runs at 80% of rated flow and watts on a 48V battery system, with no electronics between batteries and pump. I mentioned your question to Windy Dankoff, and he should be e-responding any nanosecond now as well. He'll have better advice. Allan -----Original Message----- From: Gary Higbee, Solutions from the Land To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Date: Tuesday, July 04, 2000 4:56 PM Subject: Deep water... [RE-wrenches] >Hi Wrenches, > >I'd appreciate some help with a water-pumping/household design I'm working >on. I'm fine with the array-sizing for the household, but the water-pumping >is a challenge. We've got a lift of about 425' from the water in the well to >the big tank. We'd also like as close to 5,000 gallons per day as possible. >At this point my client understands this will greatly exceed his budget, but >would still like to get at least 2,000 gallons per day. I'll give you a few >parameters and pose a few questions: > >PARAMETERS >location=near Yakima WA (east of cascades) >tracking hours per day in summer=10 >well-depth=330' >static-level depth=230' >available gpm=over 50 (small aquifer) >additional lift up hill to 5,000 gallon tank=175' >design total lift with drawdown=425' >desired gallons per day summer=5,000 (probably unrealistic, given budget) >minimum gallons per day summer=around 2,000 > >ADDITIONSL >My client already has a propane generator (which will need the autostart >stuff). It appears that the initial system budget won't allow much of an >array, so we're looking at inverter(s), batteries, well-pump, with generator >charging to start with. > >ESSENTIALS >Pumping scheme that lifts 2,000 gallons plus per day in the summer, with a >lift of 425'. Includes something like 6kwH/day domestic use. Winter water >pumping needs will be dramatically less, but much less sun means we'll want >to use the large solar arrays for both water pumping AND domestic use. The >challenge here is that ideally we might like something like a Solarjack SCS >pump (running PV-direct at 180 volts) for summer pumping, but also be able >to use the same array for inverter/domestic use. This way we don't have a >big pumping array sitting around in the winter, when we'll need all we can >get for the house. > >OPTIONS/QUESTIONS >At this point I see several options, but all have challenges (sounds like >real life!): > >1) Use a Solarjack SCS pump. We'd need a big, efficient transformer to >convert a 48-volt nominal battery bank into the 180 volts at almost 8 amps >the Solarjack SCS pump wants. Running the model 4-550 with PCB8-180 >controller would give around 3,000 gallons in our 10 tracking hours--a good >number. Any ideas? > >2) Use two Sunrise pumps. This lets us use a 48-volt system for pumping and >inverter. The problem here is that we may be just out of reach of the model >5222 (1.6 gpm @ 400'), and we would be looking at the model 5218 and 1.2 >gpm. Doubling this (two pumps) gives us 2.4gpm. Running this for 10 tracking >hours only gives us about 1400 gallons per day for something over $4,000 in >pumps/controllers. But it does so with great efficiency (about half the >array of the above). It probably isn't practical to size the battery bank so >that we continue to run the pumps long after dark, so we seem limited >something like 2,000 gallons per day. > >3) Use an AC pump with one SW inverter and a T-240 transformer. In my >conversations with Trace I'm told to stick with something like a 3/4hp >maximum for one SW (4024, 4048), with a locked-rotor amps safely in the >range of the inverter. Since we don't want to dump the household stuff every >time the pump starts this could be challenging for a 425' lift. > >4) Use an AC pump with two DR 3624 inverters (two SW's are likely out of the >budget) for a high-surge 240-volt source. This sounds workable but we're not >getting sine-wave to the house (oh-well), and we're sorely lacking in >generator control (750' from the house, in the snow and ice!). > >5) Go with a big AC pump, and do the water pumping with the generator. This >is likely the cheapest short-term solution, but it sounds yucky! > >HELP!? >I'd sure appreciate some ideas here. > >THANK YOU! > >Gary > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Gary Higbee (ghigbee at efn.org) > (541)607-1818 > Solutions from the Land--solar, > wind, and hydro site analysis, design, > and installation >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > >To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >for info contact: >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From windy at dankoffsolar.com Wed Jul 5 12:37:03 2000 From: windy at dankoffsolar.com (Windy Dankoff, Dankoff Solar) Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 09:37:03 -0700 Subject: Deep water... [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.679059618-212058698-962811730@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.679059618-212058698-962811730@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1384905808-951758591-962815023@topica.com> Allan Sindelar said Gary, >You have a good grasp of the options available. Sometimes you just can't >get there from here. Being a SunRise fan for its simplicity and >efficiency here in the arid >Southwest, I would try to back up to the big picture first. >... > >I mentioned your question to Windy Dankoff ... He'll have better advice. Thanks, Allan. I would take your approach and question the water requirement. Assuming that Gary (being a qualified "wrench") has have already done that, I offer the following correction to the discussion so far: Trace is overly conservative in sizing inverters to run pumps. Also, the mod-sine DR-series will require more energy than a sine inverter because the pump will run less efficiently. For a full discussion of the issue, see our web site: http://www.dankoffsolar.com/reference/invertersizing.html Explanation: Trace recommends that the inverter be sized to handle the locked rotor amps. However, the pump only draws so at the instant of start-up IF the power source can actually supply that much, and that's a maximum based on no voltage drop etc. It is NOT a specification of starting surge requirement. The pump motor manufacturer lists locked rotor amps for the purpose of specifying overload protection. The pump does NOT normally require that much current to start. Trace does not acknowledge this, so they are overly conservative. Our information in the above article was gathered from field experience. This is for your information. I am not implying that the Trace inverter is necessarily the best solution to this system design problem. If the customer needs so much water, then given the budget, you may need to simply concentrate on setting him up with the best possible generator-based system, with an eye to future adaptation. -- =========================== From the solar powered office of Windy Dankoff, President =========================== Dankoff Solar Products, Inc. Wholesale distributor of solar-electric equipment Manufacturer & distributor of solar water pumps 2810 Industrial Rd. Santa Fe, NM 87505 (505) 473-3800 FAX 473-3830 E-mail: info at dankoffsolar.com SEE OUR INFORMATIVE WEB SITE AT: http://www.dankoffsolar.com =========================== To contact Windy Dankoff directly: Most days I am at my home office e-mail: windy at dankoffsolar.com tel/fax: (505) 466-0059 ~ amateur radio KE5HV ~ =========================== - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From wkennedy at jademountain.com Wed Jul 5 13:45:54 2000 From: wkennedy at jademountain.com (Wes Kennedy, Jade Mountain) Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 10:45:54 -0700 Subject: Deep water... [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.598223406-951758591-962755783@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1668958979-951758591-962751399@topica.com> <0.1300002502.598223406-951758591-962755783@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1319584561-212058698-962819154@topica.com> Hi, One other option to muddy the waters further. If you end up with a high voltage DC array for either the Solarjack or Grundfos pumps, there is an outfit out of MN that makes true sinewave inverters with 120, 144, 180 volts DC input. Haven't used one yet, but the specs look impressive. Let me know if you want a copy.... >----- Original Message ----- >From: Gary Higbee, Solutions from the Land >To: >Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2000 3:56 PM >Subject: Deep water... [RE-wrenches] > > >. We've got a lift of about 425' from the water in the well to > > the big tank. We'd also like as close to 5,000 gallons per day as >possible. > > At this point my client understands this will greatly exceed his budget, >but > > would still like to get at least 2,000 gallons per day. I'll give you a >few > > parameters and pose a few questions: > > >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: > >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > >To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >for info contact: >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics Wes Kennedy Evolutionary Technologist "Your philosophy is not what you believe, it's how you live!" -j rubin - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ezra at lasqueti.net Wed Jul 5 20:34:55 2000 From: ezra at lasqueti.net (Ezra Auerbach, Trace Engineering) Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 17:34:55 -0700 Subject: SW4048 giving me grief [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1386862988-212058698-962671956@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.210164506-212058698-962843695@topica.com> Hi all, The HVD is indeed an adjustable setting to turn the inverter off if batteries reach a high voltage condition. It does not affect battery charging perameters which are set under different menu headings. As to the chargers, I agree with Steve. Best bet is for the person charging such a small load to turn on a companion load which will take the inverter of search mode at the same time. Ezra "Kurt Nelson, SunWise" wrote: > Back on the SW inverter problem from Donna and responded to by Steve. I > really like Steve's caution about cordless tool battery chargers. Never > thought of it that way, but with inverter cyclying in and out of sleep (I > have seen this happen on may small induction loads), the tool battery > regulator may not operate correctly. I have a client who has adjusted his > DR's sleep setting to where his cordless shaver won't wake the inverter, but > receives power when another device wakes the Trace. It has worked well for > him but I could see the possible problem, espically if the inverter is > cycyling as frequently as I have seen some do when connected to small > cordelss chargers. > > On the battery bubbling, I am perhaps confused. I thought Donna might be > adjusting the HVD of the Trace itself, not the setting that is actually > designed to regulate charging. I don't have my manual in from of me, but > there is a HVD setting that is set to shut off the Trace if the battery > voltage should exceed design limits for the inverter. If Donna was changing > this setting while float or bulk settings were left high?? Maybe it would > be good to reset the inverter to factory spec's and reprogram to new, well > thought-out settings. > > Kurt Nelson > > At 08:52 PM 7/1/00 -0700, you wrote: > >You set the HVD to 57 volts and its still bubbling the batteries. You did > >not say if the battery voltage was at 57 or had exceeded it? If not > >exceeded, its a function of the batteries, set it lower. If it has gone 1 or > >2 or so volts over 57, it can be a function of the temp compensation in the > >inverter, and you can set the voltage etc to account for that. Are you using > >the temp sensor and is it attached to the battery? > > > >The drill chargers should not be having trouble on a sine wave in my > >experience. I have not heard of any interference by the Trace waveform of > >SW to these but there are two other things that can do it that should be > >easy to check. > >1. Did you check the actual AC voltage input to them? It happened with the > >generator running so that could be a voltage factor. I did have one melt > >down but the cause turned out to be that rain had flooded the Makita charger > >overnight. > >2. This may be the real answer: If the inverter goes into search mode and > >back out, cycling with a partial load from just the charger on overnight, > >each time it starts up and shuts down it can reset the cordless tool > >automatic charger to full bulk mode for a few seconds, so constant cycling > >like that is a hazard to the chargers. And it will do that if the charger is > >the only load. > > > >Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com > >Backwoods Solar Electric Systems > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Donna Fischer, Amazon Power > >To: > >Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2000 7:20 PM > >Subject: SW4048 giving me grief [RE-wrenches] > > > > > >> Hi folks - I could really use some help. I've now installed three SW4048 > >> inverters, two in one system, and in both cases they're overcharging the > >> batteries. On the first set I set the HVD to 57 volts and, after reading > >> some of the comments here I set them on sell. They're still bubbling the > >> batteries! The second set (both systems have 1165 ah Hup batteries) have > >> been at 62 volts for a few days. It's a construction site and they're > >> running a generator through the inverter. Today two cordless drill > >> batteries got fried while charging and the general contractor is upset, > >and > >> I don't have any real answers for him. He wants me to go fix everything > >and > >> explain what's going on and I don't really know. Help! > >> ________________________________________________________________________ > >> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > >> > >> - - - - - - - > >> To send a message to the list use: > >> > >> To view an archive of previous messages go to: > > >> > >> To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > > >> > >> To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > > >> > >> Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >> > >> for info contact: > >> ___________________________________________________________ > >> T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > >> Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > >> > > > >- - - - - - - > >To send a message to the list use: > > > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: > > > >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > > >To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > > >for info contact: > >___________________________________________________________ > >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > > > > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Wed Jul 5 21:38:06 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 18:38:06 -0700 Subject: Deep water... [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1062612967-212058698-962847486@topica.com> ---------- >From: "Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar" >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Subject: Re: Deep water... [RE-wrenches] >Date: Tue, Jul 4, 2000, 7:09 PM > >They run on 60 or more volts >array direct and have inverter and AC motor within the sub-pump as I recall. >But big $$ I think Steve is pretty much on to something here. For this application, this depth and daily volume solar direct water pumping can't even be anywhere close to cost effective. As others have already suggested the volume does sound pretty high. Given your customers lack of budget I don't see solar direct as an option. They are probably better spending their money on the biggest cistern they afford on top of the hill and filling it every few days. If it was just a water pumping application it might be a little closer to being cost effective. Since we are talking about a entire house system the only additional cost is the extra inverter to get 240 plus a very small amount of additional propane per year. This would be a good time for some hardcore solar water pumping people to help me with the numbers. I'd like to see the math come anywhere near a dual inverter system not to mention the added complexity of a 180 volt DC water pumping system whose only purpose is for pumping water which means there is another array for charging batteries. By the way NEC has some real problems with DC voltages over 48 in residences. A dual inverter system would really be the way to go. Forget the the T240's. Don't get me (too) wrong I am running a 1/8 page solar water pumping add in my local Big Nickel for 13 weeks as we speak but I just don't like to do solar direct systems in houses with inverters. It might be because most of our wells around here are well over 200' feet. How many of us wrenches are licensed to set and service well pumps? Try to get a well service guy out to service a DC pump. It "ain't gonna" happen here in the Ozarks. Travis Creswell - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From jay at asis.com Wed Jul 5 21:40:30 2000 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 18:40:30 -0700 Subject: Deep water... [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1668958979-951758591-962751399@topica.com> <0.1300002502.598223406-951758591-962755783@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1319584561-212058698-962819154@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1655531699-951758591-962847630@topica.com> One point to keep in mind is the usage of this water at different times of the year. Usually it works that when you have "extra power" as in the summer and when its hot is when you need the most water. I suggest staying with a 48v DC or AC pump, possibly trackers to give you the best usage when you don't need the water. As to which pump? For such hi volumes, its hard to beat the cheap price and years that a standard AC pump will last. As someone else said, good luck on this one. jay peltz redway Ca. "Wes Kennedy, Jade Mountain" wrote: > Hi, > > One other option to muddy the waters further. If you end up with a > high voltage DC array for either the Solarjack or Grundfos pumps, > there is an outfit out of MN that makes true sinewave inverters with > 120, 144, 180 volts DC input. Haven't used one yet, but the specs > look impressive. Let me know if you want a copy.... > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Gary Higbee, Solutions from the Land > >To: > >Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2000 3:56 PM > >Subject: Deep water... [RE-wrenches] > > > > > >. We've got a lift of about 425' from the water in the well to > > > the big tank. We'd also like as close to 5,000 gallons per day as > >possible. > > > At this point my client understands this will greatly exceed his budget, > >but > > > would still like to get at least 2,000 gallons per day. I'll give you a > >few > > > parameters and pose a few questions: > > > > > >- - - - - - - > >To send a message to the list use: > > > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: > > > > >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > > >To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > > > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > > >for info contact: > >___________________________________________________________ > >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > Wes Kennedy > Evolutionary Technologist > > "Your philosophy is not what you believe, it's how you live!" > -j rubin > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From joe.schwartz at homepower.com Thu Jul 6 15:40:17 2000 From: joe.schwartz at homepower.com (Joe Schwartz, Home Power) Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 12:40:17 -0700 Subject: SW4048 giving me grief [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.655038907-951758591-962751860@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1386862988-212058698-962671956@topica.com> <0.1300002502.655038907-951758591-962751860@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.315599650-212058698-962912417@topica.com> Donna, I'd double check the output of the generator (voltage and frequency). If the generator's running, it's powering the appliances directly and the inverter is simply acting as a battery charger. Generator over or under voltage could be frying the cordless chargers. Are they DeWalt chargers? The high battery voltage seems like a separate (inverter setting) problem. SW inverter AC output voltage regulation is independent of battery voltage, unless there is a HVD or LVD shutdown condition. Joe Schwartz >Good point Kurt, I had read the HVD as if it was bulk setting as was the >context. Maybe that was the answer, bulk was not set correctly, or it was >on equalize instead of normal charge???. > >Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com > > >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: > >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > >To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >for info contact: >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics Joe Schwartz Home Power Magazine PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA Email:joe.schwartz at homepower.com Web: http://www.homepower.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From allan at positivenergy.com Thu Jul 6 15:48:23 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 12:48:23 -0700 Subject: Deep water... [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.996609691-951758591-962912903@topica.com> Travis, For domestic water usage requirements on deep wells I am finding it hard to beat a SunRise running off a 24V home battery system with a converter (not array-direct controller), or a 48V home system with a float switch-activated relay, no converter, and 80% output. It becomes just another DC load on the home system, one that is greatest in the summer when there's an excess of PV capacity. The 48V or 60V voltage to the pump can be run a pretty long distance on #6-#10 AWG wire, so it's pretty versatile. Down to about 300-350' we use the "hand method" of installation, with SDR9 poly pipe; below that it's pretty heavy to lift by hand. They haven't been fully trouble-free (in fact, we've probably seen most of the possible problems, along with Bob-O, I hear), but basic installation and service is within the capabilities of a good wrench, and Dankoff has provided me with good support. Re the NEC: for us, so far no problems. Heinemann 125VDC breaker in a powercenter or Trace box to the converter; output is a load circuit with no further need for overcurrent protection; use standard wiring techniques. Beats the hell out of transformers, big inverters, dual inverters, and generators. Does require a storage tank and pressure pump, though. I'm biased, though, and should lay that out. Dankoff and I have some conflicts of interest--I bought his retail biz 3-4 yrs ago--so I'm not completely objective. Still, they have been as good a distributor and manufacturer as any I have found, and lots better than some. Allan @ Positive Energy -----Original Message----- From: Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Date: Wednesday, July 05, 2000 7:38 PM Subject: Re: Deep water... [RE-wrenches] > >---------- >>From: "Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar" >>To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >>Subject: Re: Deep water... [RE-wrenches] >>Date: Tue, Jul 4, 2000, 7:09 PM >> > >>They run on 60 or more volts >>array direct and have inverter and AC motor within the sub-pump as I recall. >>But big $$ > > > >I think Steve is pretty much on to something here. For this application, >this depth and daily volume solar direct water pumping can't even be >anywhere close to cost effective. As others have already suggested the >volume does sound pretty high. Given your customers lack of budget I don't >see solar direct as an option. They are probably better spending their >money on the biggest cistern they afford on top of the hill and filling it >every few days. If it was just a water pumping application it might be a >little closer to being cost effective. Since we are talking about a entire >house system the only additional cost is the extra inverter to get 240 plus >a very small amount of additional propane per year. > >This would be a good time for some hardcore solar water pumping people to >help me with the numbers. >I'd like to see the math come anywhere near a dual inverter system not to >mention the added complexity of a 180 volt DC water pumping system whose >only purpose is for pumping water which means there is another array for >charging batteries. By the way NEC has some real problems with DC voltages >over 48 in residences. A dual inverter system would really be the way to >go. Forget the the T240's. > >Don't get me (too) wrong I am running a 1/8 page solar water pumping add in >my local Big Nickel for 13 weeks as we speak but I just don't like to do >solar direct systems in houses with inverters. It might be because most of >our wells around here are well over 200' feet. > >How many of us wrenches are licensed to set and service well pumps? Try to >get a well service guy out to service a DC pump. It "ain't gonna" happen >here in the Ozarks. > >Travis Creswell > >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > >To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >for info contact: >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From michael.welch at homepower.com Thu Jul 6 16:16:22 2000 From: michael.welch at homepower.com (Michael Welch, Home Power) Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 13:16:22 -0700 Subject: SW4048 giving me grief [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.315599650-212058698-962912417@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.655038907-951758591-962751860@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1386862988-212058698-962671956@topica.com> <0.1300002502.655038907-951758591-962751860@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.134798300-212058698-962914582@topica.com> Joe Schwartz, Home Power wrote at 12:40 PM 7/6/2000 -0700: >Donna, > >I'd double check the output of the generator (voltage and frequency). If the generator's running, it's powering the appliances directly and the inverter is simply acting as a battery charger. Generator over or under voltage could be frying the cordless chargers. Are they DeWalt chargers? Good point, Joe. Also, I keep flashing back on the blown FET problems that Tom Elliot posted here a bit back. If the genny ran out of fuel, and fets were blown then isn't it possible that the resulting poor waveform could be blowing the drill battery chargers? Michael Welch ------------------------ "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." Edward Abbey Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com Associate Editor, Home Power magazine Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From roy at four-winds-energy.com Thu Jul 6 16:45:52 2000 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler, Four Winds RE) Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 13:45:52 -0700 Subject: SW4048 giving me grief [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.655038907-951758591-962751860@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1386862988-212058698-962671956@topica.com> <0.1300002502.655038907-951758591-962751860@topica.com> <0.1300002502.134798300-212058698-962914582@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1599283047-951758591-962916352@topica.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From telliot at wagonmaker.com Fri Jul 7 00:59:59 2000 From: telliot at wagonmaker.com (Tom Elliot) Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 21:59:59 -0700 Subject: SW4048 giving me grief [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.655038907-951758591-962751860@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1386862988-212058698-962671956@topica.com> <0.1300002502.655038907-951758591-962751860@topica.com> <0.1300002502.134798300-212058698-962914582@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1599283047-951758591-962916352@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1250514181-212058698-962945999@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 5107 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jackwest at alaska.net Fri Jul 7 04:04:14 2000 From: jackwest at alaska.net (Jack West, Talkeetna AE) Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 01:04:14 -0700 Subject: blown FETs and no gas [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.655038907-951758591-962751860@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1386862988-212058698-962671956@topica.com> <0.1300002502.655038907-951758591-962751860@topica.com> <0.1300002502.134798300-212058698-962914582@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1599283047-951758591-962916352@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1250514181-212058698-962945999@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1881608340-951758591-962957054@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 1881 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solarman4 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 7 08:16:22 2000 From: solarman4 at yahoo.com (Mark Downing) Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 05:16:22 -0700 Subject: SW4048 giving me grief [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.362348056-212058698-962972182@topica.com> Just to add another 2 cents worth - The newest Dewalt chargers are happy with about any kind of power. But if the Dewalt charger is more than a couple years old, it will fry on anything short of sinewave. On mod-sine, the older ones will buzz loudly for a few seconds and quit. Actually only an internal fuse blows. I have repaired several of these. The trick is getting the thing open. They use "quit-trying-to-open-this-and-go-buy-a-new-charger" type screw heads. A torx bit works once you break out the tamper resistant pin. Mark Downing, Hurshtown Alternative Power --- "Roy Butler, Four Winds RE" wrote: Michael, That's a real good point regarding the possibility of a blown FET in that SW...but wouldn't you need an extremely poor waveform to blow one of those chargers? I run my DeWalt chargers off of my Trace DR3624 all the time...even while running my cheapo Coleman Powermate 5KW genset for battery charging. We even run the DeWalts off of a 1000 watt PortaWattz while in remote locations...still no problem. My point is...I'd bet Donna will find that it's the generator that's the culprit here...providing dirty power to those chargers, and not the SW inverter. Roy Butler Four Winds Renewable Energy CO. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From telliot at wagonmaker.com Fri Jul 7 12:29:36 2000 From: telliot at wagonmaker.com (Tom Elliot) Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 09:29:36 -0700 Subject: blown FETs and no gas [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.655038907-951758591-962751860@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1386862988-212058698-962671956@topica.com> <0.1300002502.655038907-951758591-962751860@topica.com> <0.1300002502.134798300-212058698-962914582@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1599 <0.1300002502.1881608340-951758591-962957054@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.87501315-212058698-962987376@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 4840 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ghigbee at efn.org Fri Jul 7 13:35:57 2000 From: ghigbee at efn.org (Gary Higbee, Solutions from the Land) Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 10:35:57 -0700 Subject: Deep water... [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.996609691-951758591-962912903@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1315580579-212058698-962991357@topica.com> Hi Wrenches, Thanks so much for the input for my 425' deep, "big water" client. Yes, the most important element in this system is conservation, and we're not going to be economical if we're using compact fluorescent bulbs in the home while we're gushing water all over the land! Good point about strongly stressing this. I do see wind as a possibility, though this is hilly terrain, he's down a slope, and he wants something installed very soon (i.e., doesn't want to wait for monitoring). My client just plain wants lots of water, though he's backed down from 5,000 gallons a day, thank goodness. We're still at a couple thousand gallons or so in the summer. At this point we're leaning towards as large an AC pump as his generator can handle for summer use--pumped into a 5,000 gallon holding tank on the hill. I'm not thrilled with this, but his budget doesn't allow 2-3KW of PV's at this time, he's already got a decent generator, and he still wants quite a bit of water. My biggest concern is that if he puts in a 2hp electric pump (which would probably be most efficient in loading up the generator) it probably wouldn't be practical to run the pump from inverters, assuming there was enough array for it. I could see the possibility of adding a Sunrise for general domestic use in the non-irrigation season, though this would go in under the big AC pump, and should probably be done at the same time. In one sense I'd like to go with the largest AC pump a SW4024 or 4048 could handle, even though it would be run from a generator most of the time. At least then we'd have a possible upgrade path. I'm not excited about the home computer crashing whenever the pump starts, though! So it seems that either we've got two big SW's (too expensive), two big DR's (generator-control lacking, less efficient motor operation), or detaching the irrigation pumping from the household stuff (our likely direction). This is an interesting example of where my personal philosophy is challenged. My client--a wonderful guy, and retired firefighter (hmm, could this be related to wanting lots of water?)--wants to "green" a harsh place. It's hard to imagine using so much water in this particular place. I suspect that once the propane generator bill starts mounting this will further promote water conservation (drip lines, mulching, sticking with drought-tolerant species). I suspect that the system will adjust itself in time (a Permaculture perspective, perhaps). For now it looks like we'll detach the pumping from the household system, and I'll try to keep some future options open. I am steering toward the most efficient AC pump we can find--maybe one of the new Grundfos models. Any of you have experience with any of the newer, efficeint "soft-start" models? Again, thanks! Gary ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gary Higbee (ghigbee at efn.org) (541)607-1818 Solutions from the Land--solar, wind, and hydro site analysis, design, and installation ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cpae1 at aol.com Fri Jul 7 13:58:59 2000 From: cpae1 at aol.com (Frank Fowler, Crystal Pines Alt. Energy ) Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 10:58:59 -0700 Subject: Deep water... [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1187088214-951758591-962992739@topica.com> Gary, Windy Dankoff claims a SW-4024 running through a Trace T-240 transformer will run a 2hp sub pump, but that's about all it will run. Frank Fowler Crystal Pines Alternative Energy Located in the Sierra foothills, just 20 miles southeast of Chico, CA. www.solarenergy-alt.com 530-532-1972 Living off the grid with the products we market & install. - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From phil at positivenergy.com Fri Jul 7 17:49:34 2000 From: phil at positivenergy.com (Phil Undercuffler) Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 14:49:34 -0700 Subject: Deep water... [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1315580579-212058698-962991357@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.707192308-951758591-963006574@topica.com> Hey Gary, how about this approach: Use a 5548 (If not already locked into 24v, I'd go for the extra oomph--although its surge capacity is no greater than the 40, it might handle more loads at the same time) running through a T240. Use a relay to switch the well pump between Genset & Power System. When operating from the power system, use the Trace's auxiliary relays to allow pumping only when the system voltage is high. That way, any excess power available can go to pumping water--minimizing generator run time. If your generator has a two wire start, you can use a float switch low in the tank to trigger it to pump, or a "low water" warning light in the house (use a red neon or led light to minimize wasted energy, of course!) I haven't mapped out the details, but I bet it wouldn't be difficult to set up. Good Luck! ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Higbee, Solutions from the Land To: Sent: Friday, July 07, 2000 12:35 PM Subject: RE: Deep water... [RE-wrenches] > > Hi Wrenches, > > Thanks so much for the input for my 425' deep, "big water" client. > > Yes, the most important element in this system is conservation, and we're > not going to be economical if we're using compact fluorescent bulbs in the > home while we're gushing water all over the land! Good point about strongly > stressing this. > > I do see wind as a possibility, though this is hilly terrain, he's down a > slope, and he wants something installed very soon (i.e., doesn't want to > wait for monitoring). > > My client just plain wants lots of water, though he's backed down from 5,000 > gallons a day, thank goodness. We're still at a couple thousand gallons or > so in the summer. At this point we're leaning towards as large an AC pump as > his generator can handle for summer use--pumped into a 5,000 gallon holding > tank on the hill. I'm not thrilled with this, but his budget doesn't allow > 2-3KW of PV's at this time, he's already got a decent generator, and he > still wants quite a bit of water. My biggest concern is that if he puts in a > 2hp electric pump (which would probably be most efficient in loading up the > generator) it probably wouldn't be practical to run the pump from inverters, > assuming there was enough array for it. I could see the possibility of > adding a Sunrise for general domestic use in the non-irrigation season, > though this would go in under the big AC pump, and should probably be done > at the same time. > > In one sense I'd like to go with the largest AC pump a SW4024 or 4048 could > handle, even though it would be run from a generator most of the time. At > least then we'd have a possible upgrade path. I'm not excited about the home > computer crashing whenever the pump starts, though! So it seems that either > we've got two big SW's (too expensive), two big DR's (generator-control > lacking, less efficient motor operation), or detaching the irrigation > pumping from the household stuff (our likely direction). > > This is an interesting example of where my personal philosophy is > challenged. My client--a wonderful guy, and retired firefighter (hmm, could > this be related to wanting lots of water?)--wants to "green" a harsh place. > It's hard to imagine using so much water in this particular place. I suspect > that once the propane generator bill starts mounting this will further > promote water conservation (drip lines, mulching, sticking with > drought-tolerant species). I suspect that the system will adjust itself in > time (a Permaculture perspective, perhaps). For now it looks like we'll > detach the pumping from the household system, and I'll try to keep some > future options open. > > I am steering toward the most efficient AC pump we can find--maybe one of > the new Grundfos models. Any of you have experience with any of the newer, > efficeint "soft-start" models? > > Again, thanks! > > Gary > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Gary Higbee (ghigbee at efn.org) > (541)607-1818 > Solutions from the Land--solar, > wind, and hydro site analysis, design, > and installation > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ezra at lasqueti.net Fri Jul 7 18:20:53 2000 From: ezra at lasqueti.net (Ezra Auerbach, Trace Engineering) Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 15:20:53 -0700 Subject: blown FETs and no gas [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.655038907-951758591-962751860@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1386862988-212058698-962671956@topica.com> <0.1300002502.655038907-951758591-962751860@topica.com> <0.1300002502.134798300-212058698-962914582@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1599283047-951758591-962916352@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1250514181-212058698-962945999@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1881608340-951758591-962957054@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.904213863-951758591-963008453@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 3244 bytes Desc: not available URL: From telliot at wagonmaker.com Fri Jul 7 18:30:19 2000 From: telliot at wagonmaker.com (Tom Elliot) Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 15:30:19 -0700 Subject: blown FETs and no gas [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.655038907-951758591-962751860@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1386862988-212058698-962671956@topica.com> <0.1300002502.655038907-951758591-962751860@topica.com> <0.1300002502.134798300-212058698-962914582@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1599 <0.1300002502.904213863-951758591-963008453@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.723375924-212058698-963009019@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 6937 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Fri Jul 7 18:38:47 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (R. Sparks Scott) Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 15:38:47 -0700 Subject: blown FETs and no gas [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.904213863-951758591-963008453@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.655038907-951758591-962751860@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1386862988-212058698-962671956@topica.com> <0.1300002502.655038907-951758591-962751860@topica.com> <0.1300002502.134798300-212058698-962914582@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1599283047-951758591-962916352@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1250514181-212058698-962945999@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1881608340-951758591-962957054@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2010376401-951758591-963009527@topica.com> Wrenches; Hello from the Oregon Country Fair, home of Energy park! Sorry for any typing or syntax errors, I'm typing fast as I have to make two T-105's in my RV last for a week with no PV input to speak of...The Trace 812 on board draws 6.8 amps running the PC and LED monitor, not a lot, but conservation in the rule. My 2¢ on the FET discussion: My SW2512 blew some FETs a couple of years ago operating strictly from grid power. It would still invert just fine, the loads didn't complain, but it wouldn't put any charge back into the batteries or feed the grid. Don't know what the wave form looked like, but I'll bet it was trash. My guess is that it would depend of which FETs went out, as there are three transformers in a SW and bad FETs on the small or medium transformer feed would result in less noticable problems. To their credit, Trace repaired the inverter, instaiing a new FET board, new input filtering, load transfer relay panel, and latest version of software, and had it back in two days! I'm off the the Trace booth to say hi to Sam Vanderhoof and crew, Bob-o and Bob-1 say Hi! Later. -S - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From telliot at wagonmaker.com Fri Jul 7 19:06:47 2000 From: telliot at wagonmaker.com (Tom Elliot) Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 16:06:47 -0700 Subject: blown FETs and no gas [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.655038907-951758591-962751860@topica.com><0.1300002502.1386862988-212058698-962671956@topica.com><0.1300002502.655038907-951758591-962751860@topica.com><0.1300002502.134798300-212058698-962914582@topica.com><0.1300002502.1599283047-951758591-962916352@topica.com><0.1300002502.1250514181-212058698-962945999@topica.com><0.1300002502.1881608340-951758591-962957054@topica.com> <0.1300002502.2010376401-951758591-963009527@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2042295152-212058698-963011207@topica.com> Yep, the quality of the waveform would definitely depend on which and how many FETs were damaged. I agree that Trace takes care of teh damaged FETs they know about. But if there is no way to know, absent some other problem, if there even is any damage it kinda makes it difficult to know whether to request a repair or not. I just wish there were a way to notify users of a problem with the FETs or that such a problem were even considered a valid error condition. Run this by Sam and see what he has to say. And again, if there is some clear definitive explanation why I should be having this problem or why it isn't trapped for in error conditions I'm all ears. I just wonder if using 400 volt FETs might just solve the problem. Tom Elliot Guffey Energy Works Solar Energy Education http://www.wagonmaker.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. Sparks Scott" To: Sent: Friday, July 07, 2000 4:38 PM Subject: Re: blown FETs and no gas [RE-wrenches] Wrenches; Hello from the Oregon Country Fair, home of Energy park! Sorry for any typing or syntax errors, I'm typing fast as I have to make two T-105's in my RV last for a week with no PV input to speak of...The Trace 812 on board draws 6.8 amps running the PC and LED monitor, not a lot, but conservation in the rule. My 2¢ on the FET discussion: My SW2512 blew some FETs a couple of years ago operating strictly from grid power. It would still invert just fine, the loads didn't complain, but it wouldn't put any charge back into the batteries or feed the grid. Don't know what the wave form looked like, but I'll bet it was trash. My guess is that it would depend of which FETs went out, as there are three transformers in a SW and bad FETs on the small or medium transformer feed would result in less noticable problems. To their credit, Trace repaired the inverter, instaiing a new FET board, new input filtering, load transfer relay panel, and latest version of software, and had it back in two days! I'm off the the Trace booth to say hi to Sam Vanderhoof and crew, Bob-o and Bob-1 say Hi! Later. -S - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From allan at positivenergy.com Fri Jul 7 19:48:00 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 16:48:00 -0700 Subject: Deep water... [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.552361551-951758591-963013680@topica.com> A few quick response notes: 1. It might be appropriate to plan in a small Exeltech, with a single dedicated AC circuit and remote on-off switch signal wiring to the point of use, to run his computer (and maybe audio & video). We do this sometimes with mod-sine systems for noise-freedom. 2. I think www.Dankoffsolar.com has a chart of AC well pump inverter sizing capacities in their tech notes section. Hope this helps! Allan @ Positive Energy -----Original Message----- From: Gary Higbee, Solutions from the Land To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Date: Friday, July 07, 2000 11:36 AM Subject: RE: Deep water... [RE-wrenches] > >Hi Wrenches, > >Thanks so much for the input for my 425' deep, "big water" client. > >Yes, the most important element in this system is conservation, and we're >not going to be economical if we're using compact fluorescent bulbs in the >home while we're gushing water all over the land! Good point about strongly >stressing this. > >I do see wind as a possibility, though this is hilly terrain, he's down a >slope, and he wants something installed very soon (i.e., doesn't want to >wait for monitoring). > >My client just plain wants lots of water, though he's backed down from 5,000 >gallons a day, thank goodness. We're still at a couple thousand gallons or >so in the summer. At this point we're leaning towards as large an AC pump as >his generator can handle for summer use--pumped into a 5,000 gallon holding >tank on the hill. I'm not thrilled with this, but his budget doesn't allow >2-3KW of PV's at this time, he's already got a decent generator, and he >still wants quite a bit of water. My biggest concern is that if he puts in a >2hp electric pump (which would probably be most efficient in loading up the >generator) it probably wouldn't be practical to run the pump from inverters, >assuming there was enough array for it. I could see the possibility of >adding a Sunrise for general domestic use in the non-irrigation season, >though this would go in under the big AC pump, and should probably be done >at the same time. > >In one sense I'd like to go with the largest AC pump a SW4024 or 4048 could >handle, even though it would be run from a generator most of the time. At >least then we'd have a possible upgrade path. I'm not excited about the home >computer crashing whenever the pump starts, though! So it seems that either >we've got two big SW's (too expensive), two big DR's (generator-control >lacking, less efficient motor operation), or detaching the irrigation >pumping from the household stuff (our likely direction). > >This is an interesting example of where my personal philosophy is >challenged. My client--a wonderful guy, and retired firefighter (hmm, could >this be related to wanting lots of water?)--wants to "green" a harsh place. >It's hard to imagine using so much water in this particular place. I suspect >that once the propane generator bill starts mounting this will further >promote water conservation (drip lines, mulching, sticking with >drought-tolerant species). I suspect that the system will adjust itself in >time (a Permaculture perspective, perhaps). For now it looks like we'll >detach the pumping from the household system, and I'll try to keep some >future options open. > >I am steering toward the most efficient AC pump we can find--maybe one of >the new Grundfos models. Any of you have experience with any of the newer, >efficeint "soft-start" models? > >Again, thanks! > >Gary > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Gary Higbee (ghigbee at efn.org) > (541)607-1818 > Solutions from the Land--solar, > wind, and hydro site analysis, design, > and installation >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > >To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >for info contact: >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From jay at asis.com Sat Jul 8 11:52:59 2000 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 08:52:59 -0700 Subject: Deep water... [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1315580579-212058698-962991357@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.72258772-212058698-963071579@topica.com> Hi Gary, Yes the new "soft start" ( I can't remember the new numbers) are very impressive, work fine on the SW series inverters and truly don't have surge. They are a really good choice for inverter AC pumps. They cost around $1000 retail if I remember right. You can contact Preferred pumps out in california, Fresno I believe or any other Grundfos dealer and they can tell you the specs. Jay "Gary Higbee, Solutions from the Land" wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > Thanks so much for the input for my 425' deep, "big water" client. > > Yes, the most important element in this system is conservation, and we're > not going to be economical if we're using compact fluorescent bulbs in the > home while we're gushing water all over the land! Good point about strongly > stressing this. > > I do see wind as a possibility, though this is hilly terrain, he's down a > slope, and he wants something installed very soon (i.e., doesn't want to > wait for monitoring). > > My client just plain wants lots of water, though he's backed down from 5,000 > gallons a day, thank goodness. We're still at a couple thousand gallons or > so in the summer. At this point we're leaning towards as large an AC pump as > his generator can handle for summer use--pumped into a 5,000 gallon holding > tank on the hill. I'm not thrilled with this, but his budget doesn't allow > 2-3KW of PV's at this time, he's already got a decent generator, and he > still wants quite a bit of water. My biggest concern is that if he puts in a > 2hp electric pump (which would probably be most efficient in loading up the > generator) it probably wouldn't be practical to run the pump from inverters, > assuming there was enough array for it. I could see the possibility of > adding a Sunrise for general domestic use in the non-irrigation season, > though this would go in under the big AC pump, and should probably be done > at the same time. > > In one sense I'd like to go with the largest AC pump a SW4024 or 4048 could > handle, even though it would be run from a generator most of the time. At > least then we'd have a possible upgrade path. I'm not excited about the home > computer crashing whenever the pump starts, though! So it seems that either > we've got two big SW's (too expensive), two big DR's (generator-control > lacking, less efficient motor operation), or detaching the irrigation > pumping from the household stuff (our likely direction). > > This is an interesting example of where my personal philosophy is > challenged. My client--a wonderful guy, and retired firefighter (hmm, could > this be related to wanting lots of water?)--wants to "green" a harsh place. > It's hard to imagine using so much water in this particular place. I suspect > that once the propane generator bill starts mounting this will further > promote water conservation (drip lines, mulching, sticking with > drought-tolerant species). I suspect that the system will adjust itself in > time (a Permaculture perspective, perhaps). For now it looks like we'll > detach the pumping from the household system, and I'll try to keep some > future options open. > > I am steering toward the most efficient AC pump we can find--maybe one of > the new Grundfos models. Any of you have experience with any of the newer, > efficeint "soft-start" models? > > Again, thanks! > > Gary > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Gary Higbee (ghigbee at efn.org) > (541)607-1818 > Solutions from the Land--solar, > wind, and hydro site analysis, design, > and installation > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From windy at dankoffsolar.com Sat Jul 8 12:06:22 2000 From: windy at dankoffsolar.com (Windy Dankoff, Dankoff Solar) Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 09:06:22 -0700 Subject: Deep water... [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1315580579-212058698-962991357@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1315580579-212058698-962991357@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.915305398-951758591-963072382@topica.com> Gary Higbee said >Thanks so much for the input for my 425' deep, "big water" client. >.... >In one sense I'd like to go with the largest AC pump a SW4024 or 4048 could >handle, even though it would be run from a generator most of the time. At >least then we'd have a possible upgrade path. I'm not excited about the home >computer crashing whenever the pump starts, though! ... As per my web site article referenced before, 1.5 HP is conservative on a 4024. We have an old customer using a 2 HP on a 4024 for past 4 years! Frank Fowler says that's about all it will run. Our customers lights blink when it starts, and it shuts down if he is running the washing machine when the pump starts up. Once the pump starts however, he can then start the washing machine. It's workable. It won't need to start up but once a day at most, with a storage tank system. > >This is an interesting example of where my personal philosophy is >challenged. ... Hey, it happens to me almost every day. Hard to say sometimes if you are helping humanity to consume less earthly resources, or more! I just have to detach myself and figure that people will do what they will do, that I don't always know best, and try to find the best option if not the ideal. At least your customer will likely develop the quality of the land to where it needs less water -- permaculture ideal. Windy -- =========================== From the solar powered office of Windy Dankoff, President =========================== Dankoff Solar Products, Inc. Wholesale distributor of solar-electric equipment Manufacturer & distributor of solar water pumps 2810 Industrial Rd. Santa Fe, NM 87505 (505) 473-3800 FAX 473-3830 E-mail: info at dankoffsolar.com SEE OUR INFORMATIVE WEB SITE AT: http://www.dankoffsolar.com =========================== To contact Windy Dankoff directly: Most days I am at my home office e-mail: windy at dankoffsolar.com tel/fax: (505) 466-0059 ~ amateur radio KE5HV ~ =========================== - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunpwr at jps.net Sat Jul 8 18:09:14 2000 From: sunpwr at jps.net (Chuck Heath, SunPower) Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 15:09:14 -0700 Subject: Cutting Heat Shrink tubing [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1200880367-951758591-963094154@topica.com> What's the best way to cut 4/0 heat shrink tubing? Is there a better way than using scissors for smooth, clean cuts? Cordially, Chuck Heath, from my tiny mountaintop cabin powered by sunshine, where "our local park" is called Yosemite. sunpwr at jps.net - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From toddcory at jps.net Sat Jul 8 18:27:48 2000 From: toddcory at jps.net (Todd Cory, Bald Mt. Solar) Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 15:27:48 -0700 Subject: Trace FET problems [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.510152211-951758591-963095268@topica.com> Ok, now I am wondering if my old type 1, 4024 (SN 2711) has bad FETS. I am curious how this condition would show up... the unit appears to be operating fine in all modes. It has never had a generator hooked up to it, but has faithfully been operating without interruption in a grid interactive mode continuously for nearly 5 years now. Would the unit's efficiency be affected by bad FETS or just high THD? I do have an oscilloscope however I wonder what kind of sine wave trace I would see with bad transistors? From the TTW on this unit in HP, I remember the trace being a series of steps formulation the sine wave approximation. Thanks for the feedback fellow techies! Todd P.S. Anyone else discover the "Tech Menu" available beyond the user and set up menu's? There are a bunch of readouts in there that I don't understand... Anyone deciphered them? It is helpful to see the heat sink temperature readouts. -- Todd Cory KE6SXS toddcory at jps.net Bald Mountain Solar P.O. Box 689 Mt. Shasta, Ca. 96067 (530) 926-1079 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From telliot at wagonmaker.com Sat Jul 8 18:47:47 2000 From: telliot at wagonmaker.com (Tom Elliot) Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 15:47:47 -0700 Subject: Trace FET problems [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.510152211-951758591-963095268@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.616725059-951758591-963096467@topica.com> Todd, You may not have any damage. My current unit shows itself at greater than 5% THD between 3 and 6 amps of AC load, which is the range I use the most. It has experienced one genset out of gas which appeared to be a possible cause of the problem the tech discovered in my older unit. As of now it is all I have to go on but I certainly hope to hear more definitively from the Trace folks when they've had a chance to chew it over. Does your o-scope show THD? For an example of what mine looked like, both the waveform and the spectrum. One thing that got me really interested in what was happening was the headset and microphone on my computer. When the microphone was turned on I got a strong hum except right after the current unit was installed (and before the genset ran out of gas). When it was first installed I got no hum at all, after the genset out of gas the hum had returned (it had been persistent on my previous inverter, the one with the blown FETs, also, but I had dismissed it). Bottom line is you may have nothing wrong with your unit but it will be difficult without testing the FETs. Even my old one with the burned FETs produced power just fine, but not in spec I guess, maybe more like a modified sine wave. Tom Elliot Guffey Energy Works Solar Energy Education http://www.wagonmaker.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Todd Cory, Bald Mt. Solar" To: "Wrenches" Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2000 4:27 PM Subject: Trace FET problems [RE-wrenches] > Ok, now I am wondering if my old type 1, 4024 (SN 2711) has bad FETS. I > am curious how this condition would show up... the unit appears to be > operating fine in all modes. It has never had a generator hooked up to > it, but has faithfully been operating without interruption in a grid > interactive mode continuously for nearly 5 years now. Would the unit's > efficiency be affected by bad FETS or just high THD? > > I do have an oscilloscope however I wonder what kind of sine wave trace > I would see with bad transistors? From the TTW on this unit in HP, I > remember the trace being a series of steps formulation the sine wave > approximation. > > Thanks for the feedback fellow techies! > > Todd > > P.S. Anyone else discover the "Tech Menu" available beyond the user and > set up menu's? There are a bunch of readouts in there that I don't > understand... Anyone deciphered them? It is helpful to see the heat sink > temperature readouts. > -- > Todd Cory > KE6SXS > toddcory at jps.net > Bald Mountain Solar > P.O. Box 689 > Mt. Shasta, Ca. 96067 > (530) 926-1079 > > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From roy at four-winds-energy.com Sat Jul 8 21:17:19 2000 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler, Four Winds RE) Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 18:17:19 -0700 Subject: Trace FET problems [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.510152211-951758591-963095268@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1714514552-212058698-963105439@topica.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarman4 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 8 23:58:55 2000 From: solarman4 at yahoo.com (Mark Downing) Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 20:58:55 -0700 Subject: Cutting Heat Shrink tubing [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.698566546-951758591-963115135@topica.com> I bend it over my pocket knife blade and pull the blade across as it cuts through. Cuts clean most of the time for me. Mark, Hurshtown Alternative Power --- "Chuck Heath, SunPower" wrote: > What's the best way to cut 4/0 heat shrink tubing? > > Is there a better way than using scissors for > smooth, clean cuts? > > Cordially, Chuck Heath, from my tiny mountaintop > cabin powered by > sunshine, where "our local park" is called Yosemite. > sunpwr at jps.net __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ��� Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cvsolar at aol.com Sun Jul 9 00:30:35 2000 From: cvsolar at aol.com (John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind) Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 21:30:35 -0700 Subject: Techie level menu [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1568417734-951758591-963117035@topica.com> Todd, I stumbled on to the tech menu about 3 months ago while I was showing a knowlegable customer how to get into the 2nd level menus. Kind of scary in there!! John B - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ellison at gisco.net Sun Jul 9 08:59:11 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison, Alternative Energy Systems) Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 05:59:11 -0700 Subject: Cutting Heat Shrink tubing [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1200880367-951758591-963094154@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1095072485-951758591-963147551@topica.com> Chuck, Have you tried a sharp razor blade (single edge) or utility knife? If you are using the glue filled it will gum up scissors in a hurry. Bob -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Heath, SunPower [mailto:sunpwr at jps.net] Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2000 6:09 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Cutting Heat Shrink tubing [RE-wrenches] What's the best way to cut 4/0 heat shrink tubing? Is there a better way than using scissors for smooth, clean cuts? Cordially, Chuck Heath, from my tiny mountaintop cabin powered by sunshine, where "our local park" is called Yosemite. sunpwr at jps.net - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Sun Jul 9 09:19:56 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (R. Sparks Scott) Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 06:19:56 -0700 Subject: Tech Menu [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1095072485-951758591-963147551@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1200880367-951758591-963094154@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1245267944-951758591-963148796@topica.com> OK smart guys, how about letting the rest of us know how to enter this "tech menu"? I guess I could ask the Trace reps here at the Fair this afternoon, but I'd rather get into the menu and look around so I can ask them some intelligent questions instead. On the heat shrink question, I have best results with sisscors. As for the glue-filled stuff, never buy it because I make my own. If you don't already have a can of Scotchcote (a 3M product), you need to discover it right away. It'a the ultimate weather proofing goop for covering black electrical taped joints. I just slather some of it on the cable, terminal and whatever else I'm trying to shrink the tubing over, apply the shrink, and apply the heat gun while the Scotchcote is still tacky. The shrink goes down over the goo, causing it to bubble and run all through the covered area. Works great, even around battery terminals! -S - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ellison at gisco.net Sun Jul 9 09:36:09 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison, Alternative Energy Systems) Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 06:36:09 -0700 Subject: Tech Menu [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1245267944-951758591-963148796@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.568861590-951758591-963149769@topica.com> I want to know also, but I bet the reps will not tell you. Sometimes they can be real good at acting dumb, or they just might not know themselves. Bob -----Original Message----- From: R. Sparks Scott [mailto:sharkey at mrsharkey.com] Sent: Sunday, July 09, 2000 9:20 AM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Tech Menu [RE-wrenches] OK smart guys, how about letting the rest of us know how to enter this "tech menu"? I guess I could ask the Trace reps here at the Fair this afternoon, but I'd rather get into the menu and look around so I can ask them some intelligent questions instead. On the heat shrink question, I have best results with sisscors. As for the glue-filled stuff, never buy it because I make my own. If you don't already have a can of Scotchcote (a 3M product), you need to discover it right away. It'a the ultimate weather proofing goop for covering black electrical taped joints. I just slather some of it on the cable, terminal and whatever else I'm trying to shrink the tubing over, apply the shrink, and apply the heat gun while the Scotchcote is still tacky. The shrink goes down over the goo, causing it to bubble and run all through the covered area. Works great, even around battery terminals! * S - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ellison at gisco.net Sun Jul 9 10:05:01 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison, Alternative Energy Systems) Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 07:05:01 -0700 Subject: Techie level menu [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1568417734-951758591-963117035@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.864388590-951758591-963151501@topica.com> I bet that is someplace that Trace would rather we not even know about, much less have a map to! Bob -----Original Message----- From: John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind [mailto:cvsolar at aol.com] Sent: Sunday, July 09, 2000 12:31 AM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Re: Techie level menu [RE-wrenches] Todd, I stumbled on to the tech menu about 3 months ago while I was showing a knowlegable customer how to get into the 2nd level menus. Kind of scary in there!! John B - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From windy at dankoffsolar.com Sun Jul 9 11:03:29 2000 From: windy at dankoffsolar.com (Windy Dankoff, Dankoff Solar) Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 08:03:29 -0700 Subject: Cutting Heat Shrink tubing [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.698566546-951758591-963115135@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.698566546-951758591-963115135@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.926747753-212058698-963155009@topica.com> A gardener's pruning lopper works great, and cuts thick tubing and hose too. If you have lots of cuts to make, secure one arm of the lopper in a vice so you can operate it with one hand while you feed the tubing into it with the other. Windy - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From toddcory at jps.net Sun Jul 9 11:11:14 2000 From: toddcory at jps.net (Todd Cory, Bald Mt. Solar) Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 08:11:14 -0700 Subject: Techie level menu [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.864388590-951758591-963151501@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1743185849-951758591-963155474@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 4144 bytes Desc: not available URL: From windy at dankoffsolar.com Sun Jul 9 11:13:30 2000 From: windy at dankoffsolar.com (Windy Dankoff, Dankoff Solar) Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 08:13:30 -0700 Subject: Tech Menu [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1245267944-951758591-963148796@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1200880367-951758591-963094154@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1245267944-951758591-963148796@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1415477353-951758591-963155610@topica.com> >As for the >glue-filled stuff, never buy it because I make my own. If you don't already >have a can of Scotchcote (a 3M product), you need to discover it right >away. It'a the ultimate weather proofing goop for covering black electrical >taped joints. I just slather some of it on the cable, terminal and whatever >else I'm trying to shrink the tubing over, apply the shrink, and apply the >heat gun while the Scotchcote is still tacky. The shrink goes down over the >goo, causing it to bubble and run all through the covered area. Works >great, even around battery terminals! Good you brought up the adhesive lining in shrink tubing. Many installers don't realize that non-lined shrink tubing will not seal battery terminals. Besides that point, adhesive lining is what makes submersible pump splices totally waterproof. Speaking of which, Scotchcote may work as a substitute for adhesive-lined shrink tubing, but don't get carried away and use on submersible splices please. If it's not fully hardened by process of evaporation in air, then when it is submersed, it won't ever harden, and won't provide a seal under pressure. You didn't imply submersible application, Sharkey, but I thought I'd throw this in as a warning. Windy - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From roy at four-winds-energy.com Sun Jul 9 11:46:53 2000 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler, Four Winds RE) Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 08:46:53 -0700 Subject: Tech Menu [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1200880367-951758591-963094154@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1245267944-951758591-963148796@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.994873385-951758591-963157613@topica.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar1 at together.net Sun Jul 9 14:37:14 2000 From: vtsolar1 at together.net (Kirk Herander, VT Solar) Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 11:37:14 -0700 Subject: Temperature / Hidden Menu [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1200880367-951758591-963094154@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1245267944-951758591-963148796@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.531787158-951758591-963167834@topica.com> Hello, I have used the first hidden menu to debug overtemp & fan problems in the SW series. It's been awhile, and I don't have the notes in front of me, but this is how it works: First of all, toggle to the "end setup menu" (20). Then press and release the "on/off" and "gen menu" shortcut buttons at the same time and you will enter menu 21, called "temperature" something or other. Anyway using the menu item buttons you can check heat sink temp, transformer temp, and fan speed. The values of the heat sink and transformer are not actual temperatures but merely digital representations (I don't know how to translate them). Under normal conditions(no battery charging, inverter outputting moderate power) the readings will be around 200. Now let's say you start the generator, and the batteries are at a relatively low SOC. The charger is operating at or near the max. charge current, and the transformer and heat sink increase in temp. As they do, their temp. value will begin to drop from the 200 level. The fan operates at one of four speeds, and as the transformer temp increases (as witnessed by a falling value) the fan will turn on as indicated by its reading changing from 0 to 1(the lowest speed). The fan will ramp up to level 4 (the highest speed) if necessary to keep the innards cool. If the xformer drops (heats up) to a value of 50 or below, the inverter will kick out of bulk charge, for this is an overtemp condition. I have an inverter in the field that cycles in and out of bulk charge, because the xformer would immediately cool off once it kicked out of bulk, removing the error (overtemp) condition. Then the gen AC would be re-applied, the xformer would heat up, ect, ect. This was resolved partially by improving ventilation and adding an external fan(the internal fan works properly), but the inverter still has problems on occasion. Trace really didn't have any suggestions as to how to fix this permanently. They seemed more interested in blaming it all on the installation environment. And most of the time when I return an inverter for a nebulus problem such as this, they say nothing's wrong, we "tested to all factory specs", and return it. But their field / tech support is another can of worms, and I shouldn't get too wound up on a Sunday. Hope this is useful info. Kirk, Vt. Solar "R. Sparks Scott" wrote: > OK smart guys, how about letting the rest of us know how to enter this > "tech menu"? I guess I could ask the Trace reps here at the Fair this > afternoon, but I'd rather get into the menu and look around so I can ask > them some intelligent questions instead. > On the heat shrink question, I have best results with sisscors. As for the > glue-filled stuff, never buy it because I make my own. If you don't already > have a can of Scotchcote (a 3M product), you need to discover it right > away. It'a the ultimate weather proofing goop for covering black electrical > taped joints. I just slather some of it on the cable, terminal and whatever > else I'm trying to shrink the tubing over, apply the shrink, and apply the > heat gun while the Scotchcote is still tacky. The shrink goes down over the > goo, causing it to bubble and run all through the covered area. Works > great, even around battery terminals! > > -S > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From aurora at toad.net Sun Jul 9 15:55:34 2000 From: aurora at toad.net (Jason Fisher, Aurora Energy) Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 12:55:34 -0700 Subject: Techie level menu [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1743185849-951758591-963155474@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1097547212-212058698-963172534@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 2941 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cvsolar at aol.com Sun Jul 9 19:48:42 2000 From: cvsolar at aol.com (John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind) Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 16:48:42 -0700 Subject: Mounting DR Series inverters [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.224176214-951758591-963186522@topica.com> Does anyone know if there is a problem with mounting a DR1524 upside down to allow using it as a substitute for a SW4024 using the same inverter cables. I don't know why Trace had to put the DC terminals on the opposite side on that model. I'm trying to power up a house construction site with the system set up temporarily in the generator shed and the SW has not arrived. Construction starts tomorrow. John CVSolar - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From roy at four-winds-energy.com Sun Jul 9 20:01:37 2000 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler, Four Winds RE) Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 17:01:37 -0700 Subject: Mounting DR Series inverters [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.224176214-951758591-963186522@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1565449399-951758591-963187297@topica.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cvsolar at aol.com Sun Jul 9 20:34:20 2000 From: cvsolar at aol.com (John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind) Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 17:34:20 -0700 Subject: Mounting DR Series inverters [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1157194148-951758591-963189260@topica.com> Roy, Thanks for the venting info. I couldn't remember where the vents were as I have only installed 1 DR quite awhile ago. I have a DR1524 due in tomorrow. I just looked at the picture on the spec sheet and the vent holes are visible. The UX is so much more versital as it can also be mounted vertically. (Venting on the ends). I may have to rewire the batteries and use my UX1112 for a few days or god forbid run on a generator. I'm trying to make points with the builder... quiet workplace compliments of the sun. John - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From roy at four-winds-energy.com Sun Jul 9 20:44:19 2000 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler, Four Winds RE) Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 17:44:19 -0700 Subject: Mounting DR Series inverters [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1157194148-951758591-963189260@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1229400467-951758591-963189859@topica.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cvsolar at aol.com Sun Jul 9 21:24:22 2000 From: cvsolar at aol.com (John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind) Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 18:24:22 -0700 Subject: Mounting DR Series inverters [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.619405887-951758591-963192262@topica.com> Roy, Good idea. Bolt on extensions is the answer. I have extra 3' cables ready to go. Thanks. And that is exactly what the builder said... " I won't be using the table saw for a few more days" insinuating that my inverter would not run it. John - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From toddcory at jps.net Sun Jul 9 22:42:06 2000 From: toddcory at jps.net (Todd Cory, Bald Mt. Solar) Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 19:42:06 -0700 Subject: comments to TRACE [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.226530421-951758591-963196926@topica.com> Does anyone know an e-mail address for someone at Trace Engineering that will actually read it to suggest (again) a "silent sell" mode be offered in a future software upgrade? I am after a mode that will put the inverter into the "silent" mode when: 1) The grid is active and running house loads & 2) The RE sources are inactive (night time, no wind) When the grid goes down, it would turn itself onto the "inverter" mode for back up or When the RE sources are producing it would turn itself onto the "sell" mode. I don't understand why this is not currently offered. Being forced to run the damn thing at night just wastes power and for those of us using RE, efficiency is the name of the game. I would think Trace would have understood that by now. I was promised this feature 5 years ago... and am still waiting. Can anyone see why this would not be a possible operational scenario? Thanks in advance for the address of the anxious to serve Trace customer service representative. TC -- Todd Cory KE6SXS toddcory at jps.net Bald Mountain Solar P.O. Box 689 Mt. Shasta, Ca. 96067 (530) 926-1079 A loving heart is the truest wisdom. - Charles Dickens, 1812-1870 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From jay at asis.com Sun Jul 9 23:32:52 2000 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 20:32:52 -0700 Subject: Mounting DR Series inverters [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.619405887-951758591-963192262@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1337650755-951758591-963199972@topica.com> About the Trace DR running upside down, as far as I heard from them there is no problem, as there is a fan, they just didn't want to get the sheet metal redone. Ask Ezra he'll know. jay peltz "John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind" wrote: > Roy, > Good idea. Bolt on extensions is the answer. I have extra 3' cables > ready to go. > Thanks. > > And that is exactly what the builder said... " I won't be using the table saw > for a few more days" insinuating that my inverter would not run it. > > John > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Mon Jul 10 01:25:50 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (R. Sparks Scott) Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 22:25:50 -0700 Subject: Beware: the Techie level menu [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1743185849-951758591-963155474@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.864388590-951758591-963151501@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1408548262-951758591-963206750@topica.com> For any of you thinking about fooling around in the Tech menu on the Trace SW series inverter, watch out!!! Make sure that you aren't powering any sensitive loads or doing some serious grid inirtie. At one point in the menu of the Country Fair's SW2512 this afternoon, the inverter dumped it's connection to the 30 Kw generator and transfered loads to the batteries. This was just scrolling through the menus, not changing the set points. Fortunately, there was only about 200 watts of non-critical loads powered through the system at the time. There were a lot of non-intuitive menu items which I didn't get all the way through because of the dump. The heat sink and transformer temperature readings aren't calibrated in degrees, but are a decimal assignment for the internal processor to use, 0-255. Fan speed is expressed as 0-4, etc. It probably is possible to change the inverters characteristics in this menu, ouptput voltage, load transfer delay times, etc. Sam Vanderhoof said that they revert to factory values when the inverter is powered down, so you couldn't get into too much trouble changing them on a "bench test" inverter. On another note, had a few light conversational words with John Schafer today in Energy Park. Gary probably could tell you more about John's day than I could (like you were interested, right?). -S - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cpae1 at aol.com Mon Jul 10 01:28:27 2000 From: cpae1 at aol.com (Frank Fowler, Crystal Pines Alt. Energy ) Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 22:28:27 -0700 Subject: Mounting DR Series inverters [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.256579962-951758591-963206907@topica.com> John, UL specification 1741 requires the inverter be mounted on a verticle surface (on a wall). The purpose of this requirement is to orient the inverter so that the bottom cover has no holes that would allow burning material to be ejected in the event of an internal fire. If you have nothing under the inverter that will burn, I see no reason why you can't mount it anyway you choose. Frank & Jeanette Fowler Crystal Pines Alternative Energy Located in the Sierra foothills, just 20 miles southeast of Chico, CA. www.solarenergy-alt.com 530-532-1972 Living off the grid with the products we market & install. - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cpae1 at aol.com Mon Jul 10 01:35:22 2000 From: cpae1 at aol.com (Frank Fowler, Crystal Pines Alt. Energy ) Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 22:35:22 -0700 Subject: comments to TRACE [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1504745816-951758591-963207322@topica.com> Todd, I don't have an email address, but I have a name and # you might try. Steve Higgins at 360-435-8826 ext#2226 Frank & Jeanette Fowler Crystal Pines Alternative Energy Located in the Sierra foothills, just 20 miles southeast of Chico, CA. www.solarenergy-alt.com 530-532-1972 Living off the grid with the products we market & install. - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Mon Jul 10 01:39:25 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (R. Sparks Scott) Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 22:39:25 -0700 Subject: Trace efficiency [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1097547212-212058698-963172534@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1743185849-951758591-963155474@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1881818145-212058698-963207565@topica.com> Todd and Jason; I'm assuming that you are using the menu item 4-Meters to calculate your SW's output power. I have found that these readings are next to useless for anything that requires accuracy. If you're not pushing too many amps back into the grid, put your digital mulitmeter in series with the AC line and get the truth. An amp clamp can be used for higher current installations. I put a permanent AC current transformer in my AC feed and connected it's calibrated DC output to an analog meter, 0-10 amps scale. Now I can calculate output using current to the nearest tenth of an amp. -S - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solarman4 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 10 08:50:25 2000 From: solarman4 at yahoo.com (Mark Downing) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 05:50:25 -0700 Subject: comments to TRACE [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1145032953-951758591-963233425@topica.com> I don't know of a direct e-mail address, but you might try Mick Kline on extension 2224. He claimed to be a willing listener to problems. Others at Trace just don't want to hear bad news. Another possibility is Tony Boatright x2202 who helped me when I had a copier that would not run on a SW2512. For those interested, a Canon PC-330 will run on mod sine, while its replacement the PC-430 will not even accept Trace's SW version of sinewave power. The copier gives as error display indicating "bad power" and will not power up. (Since this incedent, I refuse to call the SW output a "pure sinewave". Mod-mod-sine is much more accurate.) I was able to get the PC-430 to run by connecting a small capacitor (.47 uF) across the inverter output. This gave an ugly waveform on the ocilloscope, but the copier was happy with it. Trace first suggested using a much larger capacitor but I went as small as possible so that the inverter could go to search mode. Mark Hurshtown Alternative Power --- "Todd Cory, Bald Mt. Solar" wrote: > Does anyone know an e-mail address for someone at > Trace Engineering that > will actually read it to suggest (again) a "silent > sell" mode be offered > in a future software upgrade? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ��� Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From toddcory at jps.net Mon Jul 10 09:44:17 2000 From: toddcory at jps.net (Todd Cory, Bald Mt. Solar) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 06:44:17 -0700 Subject: Attention Darren Emmons [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.217944416-951758591-963236657@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 3675 bytes Desc: not available URL: From windy at dankoffsolar.com Mon Jul 10 10:15:23 2000 From: windy at dankoffsolar.com (Windy Dankoff, Dankoff Solar) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 07:15:23 -0700 Subject: Mounting DR Series inverters [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.619405887-951758591-963192262@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.619405887-951758591-963192262@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.737776528-212058698-963238523@topica.com> > >And that is exactly what the builder said... " I won't be using the table saw >for a few more days" insinuating that my inverter would not run it. > >John FYI If it's a universal motor table saw (brush-type motor) then it will run because it tolerates a big voltage dip during startup. Universal motors are compact, so they are found in virtually all hand-help tools and tools that are intended to be portable -- including portable table saws. Windy - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunpwr at jps.net Mon Jul 10 14:54:35 2000 From: sunpwr at jps.net (Chuck Heath, SunPower) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 11:54:35 -0700 Subject: comments to TRACE [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.768843178-212058698-963255275@topica.com> Todd Cory asks... >Does anyone know an e-mail address for someone at Trace Engineering that >will actually read it to suggest (again) a "silent sell" mode be offered >in a future software upgrade? Ray Barbee is at: rbarbee at traceengineering.com I'm not sure what his position is. Christopher Freitas (formerly of Ananda) is one of the top Trace engineers, but I do not have his email address. If I were to _guess_, it would be: cfreitas at traceengineering.com. I do not correspond with Ray Barbee, but a friend does. Cordially, Chuck Heath p.s. Got a call from a client after a night of "dry lightning" storms. The nearby downstrikes apparently caused the Trace SW4024 to pop out of ON and into SEARCH. Fortunately, he solved his own problem after talking to me by phone. The same thing also happened to _another_ client last night. Weird! - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solarman4 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 10 16:04:08 2000 From: solarman4 at yahoo.com (Mark Downing) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 13:04:08 -0700 Subject: comments to TRACE [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.810445895-951758591-963259448@topica.com> I have seen a couple of SW units go to "gen auto", in installations where the gen start function was not being used. The inverter flashes the error light the next time the batteries get low and it can't start the (non-existant) generator. This causes unnecessary concerns for the customer, and service calls for me. A little better shielding of their microprocessors, and some built in lightning protection would go a long way. (Boy do I have some stories to tell in this area.) For a while I was returning so many inverters with lightning damage that they knew me as "the lightning guy". Since I started using Delta lightning arrestors we are having much better luck, but still a handful of lightning related failures per year. Mark --- "Chuck Heath, SunPower" wrote: > p.s. Got a call from a client after a night of "dry > lightning" storms. > The nearby downstrikes apparently caused the Trace > SW4024 to pop out of ON and into SEARCH. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ��� Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From roy at four-winds-energy.com Mon Jul 10 16:13:21 2000 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler, Four Winds RE) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 13:13:21 -0700 Subject: Mounting DR Series inverters [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.619405887-951758591-963192262@topica.com> <0.1300002502.737776528-212058698-963238523@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.254393761-951758591-963260001@topica.com> Just a little side not on this subject...my Delta 10" contractors table saw has a 1.5HP induction motor on it and my DR3624 starts it like a champ. In fact, I use that as a "show and tell" to demonstrate how good the surge rating is on the DR. Roy Butler Four Winds Renewable Energy Co. www.four-winds-energy.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From windy at dankoffsolar.com Mon Jul 10 18:30:13 2000 From: windy at dankoffsolar.com (Windy Dankoff, Dankoff Solar) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 15:30:13 -0700 Subject: Lightning Protection [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.810445895-951758591-963259448@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.810445895-951758591-963259448@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.885211787-951758591-963268213@topica.com> From: Mark Downing >For a while I was returning so many inverters >with lightning damage that they knew me as "the >lightning guy". Since I started using Delta lightning >arrestors we are having much better luck, but still a >handful of lightning related failures per year. Mark (and others) -- Where are the surges coming in from? Input side, or output side of inverter? I'd like us to compile some good trade tricks. I'll start with this one, courtesy of Tony Jasman, Lake Superior Renewable Energy and also a radio broadcast engineer For 48V and lower V circuits, both DC and 3-phase AC from wind: Start with ordinary MOVs available from Radio Shack but parallel with each one, put a little old fashioned neon light (the tiny orange lighting type, such as NE-51 from electronic parts suppliers). The neon light acts as a spark gap. It also gives a visual indication when it is discharging. The spark gap reacts faster than the MOV, and saves it from frequent destruction. You place this combination between all susceptible connections and ground. The MOV will almost always disintegrate visually when it fails, whereas some other suppression devices will fail without showing any visible indication. Windy Dankoff - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunpwr at jps.net Mon Jul 10 18:56:53 2000 From: sunpwr at jps.net (Chuck Heath, SunPower) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 15:56:53 -0700 Subject: comments to TRACE [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.614325807-951758591-963269813@topica.com> Mark Downing said... >Since I started using Delta lightning >arrestors we are having much better luck, but still a >handful of lightning related failures per year. I've always used them at the combiner box of the PV array(s) but not on the AC side. Are you using them similarly, or on both the AC and DC sides? The last big downstrike here fried the built-in monitor speakers, one of 3 working telephone lines, the 2-line telephone instrument, the answering machine and the modem, but left the inverter untouched (whew!). BTW, all 50 pairs of phone lines here are buried for at least 2 miles. The hit was on my 130 ft. self-supporting commercial radio tower which has an extensive grounding system, and is just 15 ft. from the telephone network interface box. Moral: Disconnect both AC and telephone when lightning is nearby. Chuck Heath "Plugging into Sunshine since 1989" Big Oak Flat CA - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From allan at positivenergy.com Mon Jul 10 20:38:03 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:38:03 -0700 Subject: Photron product info [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2027527170-951758591-963275883@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 2731 bytes Desc: not available URL: From roy at four-winds-energy.com Mon Jul 10 23:13:42 2000 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler, Four Winds RE) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 20:13:42 -0700 Subject: Photron product info [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.2027527170-951758591-963275883@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.305575760-212058698-963285222@topica.com> Boy, for a second I thought I had what you needed! I've got the Tranzac auto AC transfer switch w/ built in system analyzer...and all the associated bits and pieces which made up the Photron Valvano Photogenset System. Unbelievable amount of documentation including blueprints, etc. Lots of interesting equipment there...circa 1987. Came with a Trace model 2024...all in mint condition too...never used! I know this doesn't help you a bit but it's interesting to know that others have this stuff too. Roy Butler Four Winds Renewable Energy Co. www.four-winds-energy.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solarman4 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 10 23:29:44 2000 From: solarman4 at yahoo.com (Mark Downing) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 20:29:44 -0700 Subject: Lightning Protection [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1375032843-212058698-963286184@topica.com> I believe most of the surges were on the DC side, following the panel lead in. Neat idea with the MOV and neon bulb. Do you have a Radio Shack part number or the specs for the MOV? --- "Windy Dankoff, Dankoff Solar" > Mark (and others) -- > > Where are the surges coming in from? Input side, or > output side of inverter? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ��� Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solarman4 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 10 23:36:06 2000 From: solarman4 at yahoo.com (Mark Downing) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 20:36:06 -0700 Subject: comments to TRACE [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.526561772-951758591-963286566@topica.com> Since most of my woes were from toasted DR series inverters, I started just hanging the LA302DC on the DC end of the inverter. Green wire to the inverter's ground lug, pos and neg to the inverter's DC input terminals. I haven't used many LA302Rs, except when there is a long ac run to another building. --- "Chuck Heath, SunPower" wrote: > Mark Downing said... > >Since I started using Delta lightning > >arrestors we are having much better luck, but still > >a handful of lightning related failures per year. > > I've always used them at the combiner box of the PV > array(s) but not on > the AC side. Are you using them similarly, or on > both the AC and DC sides? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ��� Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ellison at gisco.net Tue Jul 11 02:11:36 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison, Alternative Energy Systems) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 23:11:36 -0700 Subject: LA 302's [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.526561772-951758591-963286566@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.552479830-951758591-963295896@topica.com> Seems that someone told me that there was no difference between the DC and AC, LA302's anybody else heard anything similar? Later, Bob -----Original Message----- From: Mark Downing [mailto:solarman4 at yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, July 10, 2000 11:36 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Re: comments to TRACE [RE-wrenches] Since most of my woes were from toasted DR series inverters, I started just hanging the LA302DC on the DC end of the inverter. Green wire to the inverter's ground lug, pos and neg to the inverter's DC input terminals. I haven't used many LA302Rs, except when there is a long ac run to another building. --- "Chuck Heath, SunPower" wrote: > Mark Downing said... > >Since I started using Delta lightning > >arrestors we are having much better luck, but still > >a handful of lightning related failures per year. > > I've always used them at the combiner box of the PV > array(s) but not on > the AC side. Are you using them similarly, or on > both the AC and DC sides? - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From j.lamb at pecorp.com Tue Jul 11 09:25:44 2000 From: j.lamb at pecorp.com (James Lamb, Middle Fork Engineering) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 06:25:44 -0700 Subject: Lightning [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1470720793-212058698-963321944@topica.com> Note When you disconnect AC, DC and telephone, Lightning will jump the diconnection gap. Therefore you must have a very large gap so the lightning goes somewhere else. I know of a person who pulled the electric meter out to disconnect a windmill and then saw lightning jump over the gaps of the meter base. Lightning protection will make this more unlikely. It depends on the power of the lightning (direct hit, side flash or Hot or Cold Lightning). Don't get caught making a diconnection at the same time there is a strike. > ---------- > From: Chuck Heath, SunPower[SMTP:sunpwr at jps.net] > Reply To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Sent: Monday, July 10, 2000 5:56 PM > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Subject: Re: comments to TRACE [RE-wrenches] > > Mark Downing said... > >Since I started using Delta lightning > >arrestors we are having much better luck, but still a > >handful of lightning related failures per year. > > I've always used them at the combiner box of the PV array(s) but not on > the AC side. Are you using them similarly, or on both the AC and DC sides? > > The last big downstrike here fried the built-in monitor speakers, one of > 3 working telephone lines, the 2-line telephone instrument, the answering > machine and the modem, but left the inverter untouched (whew!). BTW, all > 50 pairs of phone lines here are buried for at least 2 miles. The hit was > on my 130 ft. self-supporting commercial radio tower which has an > extensive grounding system, and is just 15 ft. from the telephone network > interface box. > Moral: Disconnect both AC and telephone when lightning is nearby. > > Chuck Heath "Plugging into Sunshine since 1989" > Big Oak Flat CA > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > ---------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunwise at win.bright.net Tue Jul 11 10:49:38 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (Kurt Nelson, SunWise) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 07:49:38 -0700 Subject: LA 302's [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.249671452-212058698-963326978@topica.com> At 11:11 PM 7/10/00 -0700, you wrote: >Seems that someone told me that there was no difference between the DC and >AC, LA302's anybody else heard anything similar? > >Later, >Bob I spoke with a techie at Delta and I asked him specifically if there was any internal difference between the 302R and the DC and he said "no". Always possible he didn't know or didn't understand my question fully. Seems like the DC would/should have lower clamping limits than the three wire single phase 600 volt unit. Also, I've heard the color coding of the wires is almost a non-issue. Something like they all clamp together at a given voltage threashold? On the same note, it sure would be helpful if Trace, upon repairing a lightning damaged unit, explained which side of the inverter the surge came in on. Wouldn't that be fairly apparent? -- Kurt Nelson, SOLutions > >-----Original Message----- >From: Mark Downing [mailto:solarman4 at yahoo.com] >Sent: Monday, July 10, 2000 11:36 PM >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Subject: Re: comments to TRACE [RE-wrenches] > >Since most of my woes were from toasted DR series >inverters, I started just hanging the LA302DC on the >DC end of the inverter. Green wire to the inverter's >ground lug, pos and neg to the inverter's DC input >terminals. I haven't used many LA302Rs, except when >there is a long ac run to another building. > >--- "Chuck Heath, SunPower" wrote: >> Mark Downing said... >> >Since I started using Delta lightning >> >arrestors we are having much better luck, but still >> >a handful of lightning related failures per year. >> >> I've always used them at the combiner box of the PV >> array(s) but not on >> the AC side. Are you using them similarly, or on >> both the AC and DC sides? > > >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > >To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >for info contact: >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From global at sover.net Tue Jul 11 14:15:04 2000 From: global at sover.net (Jeffrey Wolfe, Global Resources) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:15:04 -0700 Subject: Trace Sell back modes [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1713808372-951758591-963339304@topica.com> Todd Cory Said: " have been asking Trace since I got this unit for a "silent sell" mode, where the unit would go into it's silent standby mode when there was nothing to backfeed. The batteries sure don't need float charging every night, and the overhead of running the inverter all night when not needed is way, way more than the tiny amount of power the batteries get in the float charging. This seriously adds to the already inefficient overhead of the unit, especially during the winter months when there is sometimes very little daily gain." That sounds like almost the right mode of operation. The only change I would make, for those systems that do power a house load, is to allow the Trace to continue to pass current through to the house through the transfer switch, but turn off the battery charger. The trick is that when the battery charger get's turned back on, it has to realize that there was no power loss, and that the batteries do not need a bulk charge. I hear the problem, from Trace's side, is that their EPROM chip has no more room on it for code. Upgrading is a major redesign, not just a chiup swap. (I do not know why.) So I do not believe we will see a simple upgrade path, nor do I think we will every see an SW with these program features. I think these will be next generation. Up in Vermont and NH Hampshire several people have been looking at this efficiency issue, and trying to get ways around it. About all we've been able to come up with is to have the inverter only selling back, no loads connected to it, and use the grid timer feature. Then also put a VERY short (10 minute) bulk charge time in. This will result in basically a pure sell-back system, but you will either lose a little solar output or use a little grid juice at the beginning and end of each day, depending upon how tight you set the grid timer. This has been the biggest reason that I have not increased my own battery bank above 350 Ahrs and why I am trying to push customers into batteryless net-metering. Even with the new MPPT charge controllers, we still are estimating about a 15 - 20% gain in efficiency for a batteryless systems, even compared to a system with a small battery bank. Jeff Jeffery D. Wolfe, P.E. Global Resource Options, LLP A Woman-Owned Vermont Limited Liability Partnership 4 Kibling Hill Road P.O. Box 51 Strafford, VT 05072 802/765-4632 802/765-9983 (Fax) global at sover.net www.globalresourceoptions.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Tue Jul 11 17:34:26 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 14:34:26 -0700 Subject: Trace Sell back modes [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1811413105-951758591-963351266@topica.com> I don't see how the size of the battery bank matters. A battery less system allows the array to run at max power voltage. To me this means that you actually 1000 watts out of your 1000 watt array. For example 12 Astro Power 120's would be 1440 watts in a battery less systems while in a battery system they would be more like 1130 watts (21.3 Amps x 53 volts) depending on the battery voltage at the time. I can see that the larger the battery bank the more of a maintenance charge they would take but this could only be minimal. Travis Creswell Ozark Solar ---------- >From: "Jeffrey Wolfe, Global Resources" >To: "'RE-wrenches at topica.com'" >Subject: RE: Trace Sell back modes [RE-wrenches] >Date: Tue, Jul 11, 2000, 1:15 PM > >This has been the biggest reason that I have not increased my own battery >bank above 350 Ahrs and why I am trying to push customers into batteryless >net-metering. Even with the new MPPT charge controllers, we still are >estimating about a 15 - 20% gain in efficiency for a batteryless systems, >even compared to a system with a small battery bank. - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From toddcory at jps.net Tue Jul 11 19:05:06 2000 From: toddcory at jps.net (Todd Cory, Bald Mt. Solar) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 16:05:06 -0700 Subject: Trace Sell back modes [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1811413105-951758591-963351266@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1480052582-951758591-963356706@topica.com> Wouldn't it be great to be able to have equipment that would not penalize you with 21% of inefficiency to have the advantage of grid back up in case of an outage? I cannot believe that the best of both worlds can not be provided. I guess it is not "economically viable", which is what I've heard about PV power for years now... sigh. TC "Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar" wrote: > I don't see how the size of the battery bank matters. A battery less system > allows the array to run at max power voltage. To me this means that you > actually 1000 watts out of your 1000 watt array. For example 12 Astro Power > 120's would be 1440 watts in a battery less systems while in a battery > system they would be more like 1130 watts (21.3 Amps x 53 volts) depending > on the battery voltage at the time. I can see that the larger the battery > bank the more of a maintenance charge they would take but this could only be > minimal. > > Travis Creswell > Ozark Solar -- Todd Cory KE6SXS toddcory at jps.net Bald Mountain Solar P.O. Box 689 Mt. Shasta, Ca. 96067 (530) 926-1079 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Tue Jul 11 19:23:52 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 16:23:52 -0700 Subject: Trace Sell back modes [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.134699645-951758591-963357832@topica.com> It would be great. I can't believe it either. I am putting together a quote right now for a business who just might accept a 10-15 year payback for a system. As you say I had better put at least 20% more solar on the battery system to produce as much annual kwh and the battery system will cost a lot more just for the back up feature. I'll post the comparison when I get finished. Travis Creswell ---------- >From: "Todd Cory, Bald Mt. Solar" >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Subject: Re: Trace Sell back modes [RE-wrenches] >Date: Tue, Jul 11, 2000, 6:05 PM > >Wouldn't it be great to be able to have equipment that would not penalize >you with 21% of >inefficiency to have the advantage of grid back up in case of an outage? I >cannot believe that the >best of both worlds can not be provided. - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From global at sover.net Tue Jul 11 21:51:31 2000 From: global at sover.net (Jeffrey Wolfe, Global Resources) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 18:51:31 -0700 Subject: Trace Sell back modes [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1181699043-212058698-963366691@topica.com> Travis: According to the Trace Engineer I spoke to about a year ago (Dean?), a 350 A-Hr 24V battery bank draws about 30 W, continuous, for float. I think this is the power to the battery, not the power to the charger. (In other words, inefficiency of the charger is not included in the 30W.) It stands to reason that doubling the size of the battery bank doubles the float power draw. This power is needed to float the batteries whether or not the sun is shining. 24 hours/day times 30W = 720W-Hrs. Since we get an average of 4 hours per day of full sun in Vermont, (and a 1kW array only produces 790W-hrs/full sun hour), we are using 25% of the power just to float the battery. Double the size of the array as compared to the battery, and the inefficiency is cut in half. Double the battery as compared to the array, and the inefficiency doubles. I know this may not make sense to a lot of people, as it would seem that off-grid folks would be getting much less power than they seem to. But this problem does not affect off-grid systems. This inefficiency only occurs at full battery, since when we try to full the bucket overfill, the juice just runs over the edge. (And the battery guys tell us that if we do not keep on filling it to overflowing, we'll rust out the sides, so to speak.) These numbers are all rough, but seem to make sense with what we are seeing around here. Based on the above, I have taken a very strong inititative to try to keep on-grid people from buying a battery system. If they are living without backup power now, I try to keep it that way. If they need backup power, I look for options. (Computer UPS's are very cheap.) However, as we all know, battery backup is a big selling point. (Here we are in marketing again!) So we're spending time educating people. I've done the comparisons on cost. For a small system, you're looking at about a 30-40% material adder, plus more shipping and installation costs. (This is based upon using the new Trace SL line tie inverters, versus those FETful SW's).) The only way you can touch a 15 year payback is with energy costs in the mid teens per kWh, interest rate at 0%, a direct grid tie batteryless system, and a lot more sun than we get in Vermont. If you can make those numbers work, give me a peak at them! Jeff Jeffery D. Wolfe, P.E. Global Resource Options, LLP A Woman-Owned Vermont Limited Liability Partnership 4 Kibling Hill Road P.O. Box 51 Strafford, VT 05072 802/765-4632 802/765-9983 (Fax) global at sover.net www.globalresourceoptions.com Travis Creswell said: I don't see how the size of the battery bank matters. A battery less system allows the array to run at max power voltage. To me this means that you actually 1000 watts out of your 1000 watt array. For example 12 Astro Power 120's would be 1440 watts in a battery less systems while in a battery system they would be more like 1130 watts (21.3 Amps x 53 volts) depending on the battery voltage at the time. I can see that the larger the battery bank the more of a maintenance charge they would take but this could only be minimal. It would be great. I can't believe it either. I am putting together a quote right now for a business who just might accept a 10-15 year payback for a system. As you say I had better put at least 20% more solar on the battery system to produce as much annual kwh and the battery system will cost a lot more just for the back up feature. I'll post the comparison when I get finished. - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From aurora at toad.net Tue Jul 11 22:49:44 2000 From: aurora at toad.net (Jason Fisher, Aurora Energy) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 19:49:44 -0700 Subject: Trace Sell back/ Payback Rant [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.134699645-951758591-963357832@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1070363344-212058698-963370184@topica.com> Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar wrote: > I am putting together a quote right now for a business who just might accept a 10-15 year payback for a system. As you say I had better put at least 20% more solar on the battery system to produce as much annual kwh and the battery system will cost a lot more just for the back up feature. I'll post the comparison when I get finished. Wow, a 10-15 year payback sounds pretty good. What are your incentives and utility rates out there? I feel optimistic in my area if I can show a payback period within a thirty year system life. At 10-15 years, it should be obvious that for economics alone, they should choose PV! Of course, I can already show someone how a DHW solar thermal system can pay for itself in under ten years yet that doesn't mean they'll buy it! What are other wrench's feelings on the whole economic "payback" issues with PV? I have found it a self-defeating subject to get too involved in. Let's face it, it's more expensive than the utility, but it's better! Why should we compare a power generating system which consumes no earthly fuel, produces no pollution, requires little maintenance, and is owned by the consumer, directly with the smoke-stack utility behemoths? What makes someone buy a Volvo over a Geo? I guess reliability, quality, performance, (and vanity of course) more than price. Isn't PV the more reliable, better quality, more responsible, and "cooler" form of power production? Of course it's more expensive, if it wasn't, the utilities would be selling it (I guess some are!). How do we convey this to the potential client, however, without sounding too condescending! Furthermore, seems like most of the recent industry conventions I've attended are full of talk by the manufacturers about "cutting installation costs". Why don't they "cut down on corporate profits" instead? Its the same old story isn't it, cut out the working class. I know the party line is that they don't make any money off this stuff, its simply for the good of our society that they invest so heavily (yeah right) into solar R&D. From what I've seen however, they get a pretty big chunk from the taxpayers in grants and other breaks for their work in renewables. I'm ranting, I know, I just want to see us more forwards not backwards and solar is for forward minded people I think. keep it up comrades. ---- Jason Fisher Aurora Energy 86 Conduit St. Annapolis, MD 21401 USA Voice/ Fax: 410-268-3088 email: aurora at toad.net - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From aurora at toad.net Tue Jul 11 22:49:51 2000 From: aurora at toad.net (Jason Fisher, Aurora Energy) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 19:49:51 -0700 Subject: Trace efficiency [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1881818145-212058698-963207565@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.447113324-212058698-963370191@topica.com> Sparky and all, Here are some numbers from an acquaintance in New England whom metered his system last year: >I now have 6 months data on my utility-intertied system (1060 Wp BP Solar panels, Trace 4024SW, eight L-16 batteries). >in these 6 months (July-Dec 99). The system had a DC output of 469 kWh. Net AC output was 280 kWh, for an effective inverter efficiency of 60%. Yuck! I installed an SW/ battery backup system down here in Maryland which the owner had me set up a metering package including an Omnimeter and dual AC kWh meters (AC input and output) which he used to calculate a similar DC to AC efficiency of the SW of about 70%. That is actual DC in from panels, not rated DC output. These systems, being "sell" systems, suffer from being on and trickle charging at night. Anyone else have numbers to compare? ---- Jason Fisher Aurora Energy 86 Conduit St. Annapolis, MD 21401 USA Voice/ Fax: 410-268-3088 email: aurora at toad.net > -----Original Message----- > From: R. Sparks Scott [mailto:sharkey at mrsharkey.com] > Sent: Sunday, July 09, 2000 10:39 PM > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Subject: Trace efficiency [RE-wrenches] > > > > Todd and Jason; > > I'm assuming that you are using the menu item 4-Meters to > calculate your > SW's output power. I have found that these readings are next to > useless for > anything that requires accuracy. If you're not pushing too many amps back > into the grid, put your digital mulitmeter in series with the AC line and > get the truth. An amp clamp can be used for higher current > installations. I > put a permanent AC current transformer in my AC feed and connected it's > calibrated DC output to an analog meter, 0-10 amps scale. Now I can > calculate output using current to the nearest tenth of an amp. > > -S > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From jackwest at alaska.net Wed Jul 12 03:49:06 2000 From: jackwest at alaska.net (Jack West, Talkeetna AE) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 00:49:06 -0700 Subject: Mounting DR Series inverters [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.224176214-951758591-963186522@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2056612587-951758591-963388146@topica.com> John, I thought the reason there are no vent holes in the bottom is so that if the unit catches fire, burning debris would not fall out on the floor. Jack West - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunpwr at jps.net Wed Jul 12 10:48:20 2000 From: sunpwr at jps.net (Chuck Heath, SunPower) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 07:48:20 -0700 Subject: Trace charger [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.477530596-951758591-963413300@topica.com> Client reported charger of a SW 4024 (v. 4.01) not working properly. Site visit confirmed this. Only charging source is a Kohler 12 RY generator, re-wired for 120 VAC (12 kW before altitude derating). Battery is type 85-25 two-volt cells, 1270 AH @ 20 hr. discharge rate. System installed in 1998. Symptoms: Trace sees AC-2 Good from Kohler, goes into Bulk charging for only 30-35 seconds, then drops out of Bulk and back to inverting for 10 seconds until cycle repeats. Kohler voltage is a steady 117-118 VAC whether under load or not. Trace reports Kohler frequency as rock-solid 60 cps. After nearly 6 hours generator runtime, was able to raise battery voltage from 26.8 to 27.2 VDC - not nearly enough. At-rest battery voltage was 24.9 VDC. Set Gen Amps AC (Menu #11) and Set Max Charge Amps AC (Menu #10) are both at 35 Amps AC. Lower values did not change results, nor did changing Set Float Voltage (27.1 VDC) to match Set Bulk Voltage setting (Menu #10) of 29.8 VDC. Bryan at Trace Tech Support ( and telephone extension 2203) recommended switching Kohler output from SW Gen Input to SW Grid Input, AC-1. Did that. Result was the same, except for causing a Generator Start error which shut down the Kohler in less than a minute from RY 7. Running the Kohler using its "Run" instead of the "Auto" switch position caused the same cycling of 30-35 sec. Bulk charging, 10 sec. of inverting, then back to Bulk charging. Ambient air temp was 68 upon arrival, 86 degrees F. by early afternoon. Trace internal fan worked just fine. All Trace menu settings were checked at least twice and found to be correct. Did not try using the default menu settings. Ideas? Chuck Heath "Plugging into Sunshine since 1989" Big Oak Flat CA sunpwr at jps.net 209 962-7012 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunwise at win.bright.net Wed Jul 12 11:01:28 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (Kurt Nelson, SunWise) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 08:01:28 -0700 Subject: Trace efficiency [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.807010134-212058698-963414088@topica.com> At 07:49 PM 7/11/00 -0700, you wrote: >Sparky and all, > >Here are some numbers from an acquaintance in New England whom metered his >system last year .......... for an effective inverter efficiency of 60%. >Yuck! > > Maybe Sharky would be interested in re-posting the set-up he did to improve the efficiency of his SW by making it disconnect after completing a day's charging cycle. I think Jim Kerbel detailed the same type of trick in a Home Power article/system (I could find the HP#). Doing a grid-hybrid system also can come up with some better numbers, though I have yet to document them. Some home loads such as refrigeration are switch onto and off of the grid with a 30 amp DT relay (based on battery voltage), and the system is left in LBX in a nearly stand-alone design. A few months ago I would have said that if Trace wouldn't do it (silent/better efficiency), someone else would fill the gap. Now, with the inverter mergers, it is less likely, but will happen. Kurt Nelson - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From telliot at wagonmaker.com Wed Jul 12 11:21:01 2000 From: telliot at wagonmaker.com (Tom Elliot) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 08:21:01 -0700 Subject: Trace charger [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.477530596-951758591-963413300@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.696589265-212058698-963415261@topica.com> Chuck, Is the generator a gasoline type and has it ever run out of gas while charging? My first clue to a problem with my 4024 came when the charger had a problem. In my case it was with fan control but if there are damaged FETs in the unit and the transformers the FETs control are synched to incoming gen power the problem could be internal to the Trace. I know I tend to sound like a broken record on this but my curiousity hasn't been satisfied by Trace and I'd love to either prove or disprove my theories on this through other real-world experiences. If you can put an o-scope on the inverter output and check signal and spectrum at different loads it would be interesting to see the results. Tom Elliot Guffey Energy Works Solar Energy Education http://www.wagonmaker.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Heath, SunPower" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2000 8:48 AM Subject: Trace charger [RE-wrenches] > Client reported charger of a SW 4024 (v. 4.01) not working properly. Site > visit confirmed this. Only charging source is a Kohler 12 RY generator, > re-wired for 120 VAC (12 kW before altitude derating). Battery is type > 85-25 two-volt cells, 1270 AH @ 20 hr. discharge rate. System installed > in 1998. > > Symptoms: Trace sees AC-2 Good from Kohler, goes into Bulk charging for > only 30-35 seconds, then drops out of Bulk and back to inverting for 10 > seconds until cycle repeats. Kohler voltage is a steady 117-118 VAC > whether under load or not. Trace reports Kohler frequency as rock-solid > 60 cps. > > After nearly 6 hours generator runtime, was able to raise battery voltage > from 26.8 to 27.2 VDC - not nearly enough. At-rest battery voltage was > 24.9 VDC. Set Gen Amps AC (Menu #11) and Set Max Charge Amps AC (Menu > #10) are both at 35 Amps AC. Lower values did not change results, nor did > changing Set Float Voltage (27.1 VDC) to match Set Bulk Voltage setting > (Menu #10) of 29.8 VDC. > > Bryan at Trace Tech Support ( and > telephone extension 2203) recommended switching Kohler output from SW Gen > Input to SW Grid Input, AC-1. > > Did that. Result was the same, except for causing a Generator Start error > which shut down the Kohler in less than a minute from RY 7. Running the > Kohler using its "Run" instead of the "Auto" switch position caused the > same cycling of 30-35 sec. Bulk charging, 10 sec. of inverting, then back > to Bulk charging. Ambient air temp was 68 upon arrival, 86 degrees F. by > early afternoon. Trace internal fan worked just fine. > > All Trace menu settings were checked at least twice and found to be > correct. > Did not try using the default menu settings. > > Ideas? > > Chuck Heath "Plugging into Sunshine since 1989" > Big Oak Flat CA > sunpwr at jps.net > 209 962-7012 > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From econnect at snowcrest.net Wed Jul 12 11:23:32 2000 From: econnect at snowcrest.net (Bob-O Schultze, Electron Connection) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 08:23:32 -0700 Subject: Trace charger [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.477530596-951758591-963413300@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.477530596-951758591-963413300@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.302935297-951758591-963415412@topica.com> Hiya Chuck, Try setting the Gen Amps AC (Menu #11) higher than the Max Charge Amps AC (Menu #10). Say, 40 and 30. You should be able to get close to a C-10 charge rate to your 1270 A/hr battery with the 30A default Max Charge Amps, or even a little less. Unless....the peak to peak ac voltage of that Kohler is low. Grid is 164, most gennys run somewhat lower, but you need to have 155 or better under load to make the charger perform. Don't know if you have other loads, but bear in mind that the 4024 in charger mode is only about 55-60% efficient. good Luck, Bob-O Bob-O Schultze, Electron Connection PO Box 203, Hornbrook, CA 96044 800.945.7587 fax 530-475-3401 www.electronconnection.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ezra at lasqueti.net Wed Jul 12 12:08:43 2000 From: ezra at lasqueti.net (Ezra Auerbach, Trace Engineering) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 09:08:43 -0700 Subject: comments to TRACE [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.226530421-951758591-963196926@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1506139518-212058698-963418123@topica.com> Hi All, Darn, I'm going to wade in here with some Trace info. First, yes, Trace is aware that there are issues with LBX mode in the SW Series inverters. To the best of my knowledge the new PS Series inverter has updated software which corrects the stated problem of buying power at night to float the batteries. As to who to contact at Trace I offer the following suggestions: Tony Boatwright (tboatwright at traceengineering.com) is the chief tech support person, he is good to ask questions of. As to who to make suggestions to, I would suggest tech support as well, they will forward suggestions to appropriate persons. Yes, it's a drag that the DC sides of the DR and the SW are opposite. The PS can be mounted in any position so for a DR upgrade to SW it will be the easiest to install. Ezra Auerbach "Todd Cory, Bald Mt. Solar" wrote: > Does anyone know an e-mail address for someone at Trace Engineering that > will actually read it to suggest (again) a "silent sell" mode be offered > in a future software upgrade? > > I am after a mode that will put the inverter into the "silent" mode > when: > 1) The grid is active and running house loads & > 2) The RE sources are inactive (night time, no wind) > > When the grid goes down, it would turn itself onto the "inverter" mode > for back up or > When the RE sources are producing it would turn itself onto the "sell" > mode. > > I don't understand why this is not currently offered. Being forced to > run the damn thing at night just wastes power and for those of us using > RE, efficiency is the name of the game. I would think Trace would have > understood that by now. I was promised this feature 5 years ago... and > am still waiting. Can anyone see why this would not be a possible > operational scenario? > > Thanks in advance for the address of the anxious to serve Trace customer > service representative. > > TC > -- > Todd Cory > KE6SXS > toddcory at jps.net > Bald Mountain Solar > P.O. Box 689 > Mt. Shasta, Ca. 96067 > (530) 926-1079 > > A loving heart is the truest wisdom. > > - Charles Dickens, 1812-1870 > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunpwr at jps.net Wed Jul 12 12:53:33 2000 From: sunpwr at jps.net (Chuck Heath, SunPower) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 09:53:33 -0700 Subject: Trace charger [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1498305460-951758591-963420813@topica.com> Bob-O suggested... >Try setting the Gen Amps AC (Menu #11) higher than the Max Charge >Amps AC (Menu#10). Say, 40 and 30. You should be able to get close to a C- >10 charge rate to your 1270 A/hr battery with the 30A default Max Charge >Amps, or even a little less. Unless....the peak to peak ac voltage of >that Kohler is low. Grid is 164, most gennys run somewhat lower, but >you need to have 155 or better under load to make the charger >perform. Don't know if you have other loads, but bear in mind that >the 4024 in charger mode is only about 55-60% efficient. I've always made those two settings the same, usually 30 Amps, assuming the genny could handle it (two Honda 6,500 Watt machines can only deliver 19 Amps without being dragged down, despite the Honda outlet being labeled 120 VAC, 27 Amps). This Kohler 12RY was re-wired for 120 VAC only and is fueled by LPG (propane). With altitude de-rating, it delivers about 10.8 kW. I'll use a Fluke 87 to measure the Kohler Peak RMS on my next visit. Many Hondas show about 170 V. Peak, whereas my 30 kW Onan only delivers 157 V. Peak. There were no other loads while the Kohler ran for 6 hours yesterday. Cordially, Chuck SUN-tricity® Big Oak Flat CA - where "our local park" is called Yosemite - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunpwr at jps.net Wed Jul 12 13:00:57 2000 From: sunpwr at jps.net (Chuck Heath, SunPower) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 10:00:57 -0700 Subject: Trace charger [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.274566253-212058698-963421257@topica.com> Tom Elliot asks... >Is the generator a gasoline type and has it ever run out of gas while >charging? No, its fueled by LPG (propane) and tied to Relay 7 on the Trace for automatic operation. It's been running automatically every 4-5 days for 2-3 hours since the system was installed in February, 1998 with no problems except replacing a water pump on the Kohler. >My first clue to a problem with my 4024 came when the charger had >a problem. In my case it was with fan control but if there are damaged >FETs in the unit and the transformers the FETs control are synched to >incoming gen power the problem could be internal to the Trace. > >I know I tend to sound like a broken record on this but my curiousity >hasn't been satisfied by Trace and I'd love to either prove or disprove my >theories on this through other real-world experiences. If you can put an o- >scope on the inverter output and check signal and spectrum at different loads >it would be interesting to see the results. Hopefully, I can borrow one from a broadcast engineering friend. I think you're on to something here. I just hope Trace will fix the problem. Cordially, Chuck SUN-tricity® Big Oak Flat CA - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunwise at win.bright.net Wed Jul 12 13:35:01 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (Kurt Nelson, SunWise) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 10:35:01 -0700 Subject: Trace efficiency [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.848914047-951758591-963423301@topica.com> An effective inverter efficiency of 60% on a utility-intertied system. >>Yuck! >> There may be some confusion with my including LBX Mode in the discussion on Utility-intertied systems. A question to all you wrenches..... How many grid-tied systems do you have out there, with or without battery, where-in the client actually gets a check each month from the utility? I'm guessing the answer will be very few to none. Designs that utilize the PV's to directly power appliances in the home while the system is producing adequate power, and transfer one/some loads back to the utility to save the battery (rather than floating it all night) accomplish the same thing and I believe they can do so more efficiently. These appliances fall back to the battery (controlling relays energized by utility power) in the event of a power failure, just like they would in a utility-intertied system, yet do not require high priced insurance (Wisconsin) nor other utility authorizations and contracts. Though the system is essentially utility-interactive, such systems don't even require an SW inverter. > >Kurt Nelson > >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > >To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >for info contact: >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunpwr at jps.net Wed Jul 12 15:01:27 2000 From: sunpwr at jps.net (Chuck Heath, SunPower) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 12:01:27 -0700 Subject: Fwd: booster pump for water line [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2092964295-212058698-963428487@topica.com> Do some of you get these things with absolutely no hint where he is? I'm not about to waste my time without more information. Cordially, Chuck ---------------- Begin Forwarded Message ---------------- Date: 7/12/2000 10:03 AM Received: 7/12/2000 11:11 AM From: wortiz at plateautel.net To: Chuck Heath, sunpwr at jps.net I need a solar booster pump to tap into an existing 1 1/4in pipe line and push the water 6,100 ft with a vertical lift of 70 ft. Water at the existing pipe line comes from a well that feeds a 7,000 ft pipe line that is gravity fed with a vertical drop of 36 ft. There is no power at any location so it has to be a solar pump. P.S. I found your business using the Source for Renewable Energy business directory and online buyers guide located at http://energy.sourceguides.com ----------------- End Forwarded Message ----------------- - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From vtsolar1 at together.net Wed Jul 12 15:33:36 2000 From: vtsolar1 at together.net (Kirk Herander, VT Solar) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 12:33:36 -0700 Subject: Trace charger [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.477530596-951758591-963413300@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1506418974-951758591-963430416@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 1867 bytes Desc: not available URL: From vtsolar1 at together.net Wed Jul 12 16:09:42 2000 From: vtsolar1 at together.net (Kirk Herander, VT Solar) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 13:09:42 -0700 Subject: Battery or non-battery UI? [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1181699043-212058698-963366691@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.251143974-212058698-963432582@topica.com> Hello Jeff, I lean more towards battery-based UI. Once I explain to customers that they will have zero power for critical loads in a non-battery system should the power fail, most don't care about the economics or efficiency. They want critical load power to bridge the blackout. They value this peace of mind more, and often bring up the "ice storm" of a few years ago to reinforce their own opinion. Because if you live out in the boonies, it may be days before power is restored after a bad winter storm, especially in a rural state such as Vermont. I don't have data to back this up, but I think that battery UI using a MPPT controller can make up a good bit of the efficiency losses in cool / cold (i.e. low panel temp) conditions if the controller is never allowed to leave bulk charge (by programming inverter sell voltage well below the bulk charge setting). Granted, MPPT efficiency varies from season-to-season, but it can help to justify battery-UI depending on application. regards, Kirk, Vt. Solar "Jeffrey Wolfe, Global Resources" wrote: > Based on the above, I have taken a very strong inititative to try to keep > on-grid people from buying a battery system. If they are living without > backup power now, I try to keep it that way. If they need backup power, I > look for options. (Computer UPS's are very cheap.) However, as we all know, > battery backup is a big selling point. (Here we are in marketing again!) So > we're spending time educating people. I've done the comparisons on cost. > For a small system, you're looking at about a 30-40% material adder, plus > more shipping and installation costs. (This is based upon using the new > Trace SL line tie inverters, versus those FETful SW's).) > > The only way you can touch a 15 year payback is with energy costs in the > mid teens per kWh, interest rate at 0%, a direct grid tie batteryless > system, and a lot more sun than we get in Vermont. If you can make those > numbers work, give me a peak at them! > > Jeff > > Jeffery D. Wolfe, P.E. > Global Resource Options, LLP > A Woman-Owned Vermont Limited Liability Partnership > 4 Kibling Hill Road > P.O. Box 51 > Strafford, VT 05072 > 802/765-4632 > 802/765-9983 (Fax) > global at sover.net > www.globalresourceoptions.com > > T - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From windy at dankoffsolar.com Wed Jul 12 16:32:49 2000 From: windy at dankoffsolar.com (Windy Dankoff, Dankoff Solar) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 13:32:49 -0700 Subject: Fwd: booster pump for water line [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.2092964295-212058698-963428487@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.2092964295-212058698-963428487@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1970330140-951758591-963433969@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 5507 bytes Desc: not available URL: From microhydro at dplus.net Wed Jul 12 17:20:44 2000 From: microhydro at dplus.net (Ron Macleod) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 14:20:44 -0700 Subject: Fwd: booster pump for water line [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.2092964295-212058698-963428487@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1970330140-951758591-963433969@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1919149428-951758591-963436844@topica.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From windy at dankoffsolar.com Wed Jul 12 17:57:13 2000 From: windy at dankoffsolar.com (Windy Dankoff, Dankoff Solar) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 14:57:13 -0700 Subject: Fwd: booster pump for water line [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1919149428-951758591-963436844@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.2092964295-212058698-963428487@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1970330140-951758591-963433969@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1919149428-951758591-963436844@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.817372513-212058698-963439033@topica.com> >Windy - Great approach - I use a questionaire to help evaluate >potential hydro sites - soon I'll have it up on my web site. This >tends to separate the tire kickers from the real site owners and >makes it possible for me to say either - Sorry folks noway - or lets >looka at this - here is a rough estimate of cost. If a dealer front >ends with a questionaire and a quick ballpark price it often saves >time and heartbreak. Like Pumps - micro-hydro sites are "site >specific". > Best Ron Ron, While you're at it, you'll appreciate this tool. I've copied it from our site at: http://dankoffsolar.com/reference.html Look for the article under Water Supply: Calculation Guide for Solar Water Pumping Systems Here's the handy formula that will let you estimate the watts required for a proposed job even if you have no idea what sort of pump you would use. It is very helpful to determine feasibility or otherwise, especially when a farmer calls you about replacing his 50 HP pump! DETERMINE POWER REQUIRED TO PUMP WATER This is useful for estimating the cost and feasibility of any pumping system, even if the specific pump is unknown. In American Units: WATTS= FEET X GPM X 18.8 divided by PUMP EFFICIENCY % In Metric Units: WATTS= METERS X LPM X 16 divided by PUMP EFFICIENCY % Feet or Meters = Total Dynamic Head Pump Efficiency is "wire to water" (includes motor and pump losses) Average efficiency for solar pumps is ~ 45% (varies 30 to 60%) Enter Efficiency as a whole number: For 45% enter "45" TO DETERMINE THE EFFICIENCY of a proposed or existing pump system, invert the above equation to solve for pump efficiency. - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From toddcory at jps.net Wed Jul 12 19:46:14 2000 From: toddcory at jps.net (Todd Cory, Bald Mt. Solar) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 16:46:14 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: silent sell mode] [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1307777889-212058698-963445574@topica.com> FYI, I am forwarding e-mail from Tony Boatwright at Trace regarding the fabled "silent sell" mode: Tony Boatwright wrote: > Hello Todd, > > I will try to respond to your inquires in Ray's stead. > > You are correct Trace has looked at a scenario called "silent sell" which is > similar in operation to the description you gave below. We think this will > benefit most line-inter tie users, but as you have been rightly told, the > capacity of the EPROM's in the SW are full and decisions must be made to > determine if some current features are to be deleted or to create or > "revamp" a new SW. > > The 82% you see at 1kW is possible based on what inverter model and the > overall system installation, but I have seen higher levels obtained at the > 1kW power level from the SW. > > Personally, I have worked through different scenarios and we continue to > "bounce off" different configurations as to what we will do to the next > generation SW's, but the "silent sell" view is at the top of the list and I > think it (or something very similar) will be provided on the next > generations of SW's. > > As for when this may hit the streets, I don't think anyone here at Trace > would be accurate if they gave you a time. I would only say that it is a > project we have put down on paper and have discussed many times. > > Tony Boatwright > Technical Support Manager > Xantrex Trace Engineering > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Todd Cory [SMTP:toddcory at jps.net] > > Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2000 3:43 PM > > To: rbarbee at traceengineering.com > > Subject: silent sell mode > > > > Hello Ray, > > > > I was given your name by someone on the "RE wrench list" as someone at > > Trace to contact. I am frustrated with the very inefficient operational > > options on the SW series of inverters in "sell" mode. About 5 years ago > > I contacted someone there named "Gordon" regarding this situation. He > > mentioned Trace Engineering would soon be out with what he called a > > "silent sell" mode. > > > > Here's what I am after: > > > > The inverter would be in it's normal "sell" operational mode unless: > > 1) there were no renewable energy sources to feed back into the grid and > > > > 2) the batteries did not need charging > > IF the grid was still active it would continue to pass the power through > > it's transfer switch and put itself into the silent mode... > > > > In this mode of operation, it would only turn itself back on if: > > 1) the battery voltage went above a set point indicating power to "sell" > > back into the grid or > > 2) if the battery voltage dropped below a set point to activate the > > battery charger or > > 3) if the grid failed when it would pick up the loads that were going > > through the transfer switch. > > > > This would eliminate the wasteful overhead of having the unit running > > all night when there is no need for it to be doing so. Sometimes in the > > winter when our daily solar gain is minimal, I would speculate that the > > inverter is actually producing a net loss which is NOT good. > > > > As you know, PV power is quite expensive and I find it frustrating that > > the "best" equipment on the market for grid intertie, results in an such > > a high operational overhead. In addition to this, the seemingly low > > efficiency I see of approximately 82% while back feeding around 1 kW > > really seems unacceptable. Please don't misunderstand me, the Trace SW > > series has revolutionized the inverter market, setting the standard for > > most to follow. However I am trying to point out that there remains room > > for improvement in the grid intertie mode. > > > > I have been told that you are not offering this mode of operation > > because at present the grid interactive market is too small to bother > > with. Also that the EPROM onboard the SW units is already full and that > > adding more code would necessitate a whole revamp of the control > > hardware. > > > > I am curious if you have ever considered adding the operational option I > > suggest and if there is any possibility of it becoming a reality in the > > not too distant future? I also wonder if it is true that currently there > > is insufficient memory onboard to accommodate this. It seems it would > > not be too difficult to expand the memory capabilities to accommodate > > the efficiency gains this option would afford. As more grid tied systems > > are requested it would be wonderful to not have to try to explain the > > high energy overhead of the intertie equipment. > > > > Thank you in advance for the information and entertaining my expanded > > grid intertie suggestions. > > > > Todd Cory > > -- > > Todd Cory > > KE6SXS > > toddcory at jps.net > > Bald Mountain Solar > > P.O. Box 689 > > Mt. Shasta, Ca. 96067 > > (530) 926-1079 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ezra at lasqueti.net Wed Jul 12 20:17:26 2000 From: ezra at lasqueti.net (Ezra Auerbach, Trace Engineering) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 17:17:26 -0700 Subject: Battery or non-battery UI? [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1181699043-212058698-963366691@topica.com> <0.1300002502.251143974-212058698-963432582@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.866213990-951758591-963447446@topica.com> Hi All, My two cents worth follows from what Kirk has to say. There is a basic inefficiency which will always be a penalty with Grid Tied/Battery Backup systems. Yes I do hope that Trace or someone comes along and makes it better than the 60-75% we see evidenced today. I also expect that straight Grid Tie/PV will always have an efficiency advantage. In the end, I think that what the customer wants is defined by their location, the reliability of their local utility, and their perceived dependence on full time power. Some of those folks are truly appropriated candidates for a hybrid battery based system. It's all of our jobs to be sure that we let them know that there are efficiency trade off's to be had with the reliability of full time power. If we don't engender then with unreal expectations an equation which states that "you will get about 65-70% efficiency from the inverter/batteries in Grid Tie application, and back up power for a matter of days" is not such a bad deal. Ezra Auerbach "Kirk Herander, VT Solar" wrote: > Hello Jeff, > > I lean more towards battery-based UI. Once I explain to customers that they will have zero power for > critical loads in a non-battery system > should the power fail, most don't care about the economics or efficiency. They want critical load > power to bridge the blackout. They value this peace of mind more, and often bring up the "ice storm" > of a few years ago to reinforce their own opinion. Because if you live out in the boonies, it may be > days before power is restored after a bad winter storm, especially in a rural state such as Vermont. > > I don't have data to back this up, but I think that battery UI using a MPPT controller can make up a > good bit of the efficiency losses in cool / cold (i.e. low panel temp) conditions if the controller > is never allowed to leave bulk charge (by programming inverter sell voltage well below the bulk > charge setting). Granted, MPPT efficiency varies from season-to-season, but it can help to justify > battery-UI depending on application. > > regards, Kirk, Vt. Solar > > "Jeffrey Wolfe, Global Resources" wrote: > > > Based on the above, I have taken a very strong inititative to try to keep > > on-grid people from buying a battery system. If they are living without > > backup power now, I try to keep it that way. If they need backup power, I > > look for options. (Computer UPS's are very cheap.) However, as we all know, > > battery backup is a big selling point. (Here we are in marketing again!) So > > we're spending time educating people. I've done the comparisons on cost. > > For a small system, you're looking at about a 30-40% material adder, plus > > more shipping and installation costs. (This is based upon using the new > > Trace SL line tie inverters, versus those FETful SW's).) > > > > The only way you can touch a 15 year payback is with energy costs in the > > mid teens per kWh, interest rate at 0%, a direct grid tie batteryless > > system, and a lot more sun than we get in Vermont. If you can make those > > numbers work, give me a peak at them! > > > > Jeff > > > > Jeffery D. Wolfe, P.E. > > Global Resource Options, LLP > > A Woman-Owned Vermont Limited Liability Partnership > > 4 Kibling Hill Road > > P.O. Box 51 > > Strafford, VT 05072 > > 802/765-4632 > > 802/765-9983 (Fax) > > global at sover.net > > www.globalresourceoptions.com > > > > T > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Thu Jul 13 13:33:00 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 10:33:00 -0700 Subject: Trace Sell back/ Payback Rant [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.511169176-951758591-963509580@topica.com> Jason, No incentives other than the Federal Tax Credit available to business's. It's 25% tax credit then follows with a accelerated depreciation schedule. My rough analysis is pretty ugly. Sun Tie 2500 + 20 Astro Powers 120's. Assuming I don't charge retail but still make some money I would need to charge something like 15k for this system before labor and racks etc. Around here I'd better use 6¢ per kWh for a business. Assuming a annual avg. daily sun hours of 5 for a fixed array (probably a little high) this array might produce 4380 kWh's per year. $15,000/$262.80 = 57 years. I'm afraid to even look at battery system comparison. As others have mentioned the battery back up feature is pretty important to most folks and in many cases should be the key reason to purchase such a system. It probably doubles the payback period but it's already pretty long. Maybe its like people paying 5 times more for a Honda mower without doing the math that they could buy 3 Murray's that would probably last an awful lot longer than one Honda. Those same people are very proud of the Honda lawn mower and they get to an awful lot of satisfaction when they look over at the neighbor cussing his dead Murray. Travis Creswell ---------- >From: "Jason Fisher, Aurora Energy" >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Subject: RE: Trace Sell back/ Payback Rant [RE-wrenches] >Date: Tue, Jul 11, 2000, 9:49 PM > >Wow, a 10-15 year payback sounds pretty good. What are your incentives and >utility rates out there? I feel optimistic in my area if I can show a >payback period within a thirty year system life. At 10-15 years, it should >be obvious that for economics alone, they should choose PV! Of course, I >can already show someone how a DHW solar thermal system can pay for itself >in under ten years yet that doesn't mean they'll buy it - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cvsolar at aol.com Fri Jul 14 08:27:36 2000 From: cvsolar at aol.com (John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 05:27:36 -0700 Subject: Trace Sell back/ Payback Rant [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1103766018-951758591-963577656@topica.com> Travis, It seems like every time I get into cost effectiveness and payback calcuations I get depressed. I made up a flyer to give out discussing the economics of Solar Power and have decided to just throw them away. It is too negative. We have to accent the positives exactly as you described the Honda Mower analogy. How may sport ut's, or double door refrigerators for that matter, are cost effective or have a reasonable payback time. What we really need right now is 25 cent per kw unsubsidized power just as we need $4.00 gal gasoline. I guess we have to wait 10 more years til the mother of all oil crisis hits. In the meantime, we march on. John B. - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From toddcory at jps.net Fri Jul 14 10:15:56 2000 From: toddcory at jps.net (Todd Cory, Bald Mt. Solar) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 07:15:56 -0700 Subject: Trace Sell back/ Payback Rant [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1103766018-951758591-963577656@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.254568965-951758591-963584156@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 2340 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sunwise at win.bright.net Fri Jul 14 10:58:35 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (Kurt Nelson, SunWise) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 07:58:35 -0700 Subject: Trace Sell back/ Payback Rant [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1375366669-212058698-963586715@topica.com> At 05:27 AM 7/14/00 -0700, you wrote: >Travis, > It seems like every time I get into cost effectiveness and payback >calcuations I get depressed..... >I really agree with John B. on this issue. Unsubsidized .25/KWH is a lot closer to the actual costs associated with fossil fuel and nukes (if some of global climate change comes about, could be real low). I also agree from the aspect that what we don't need is subsidized solar. When the last big Fed. tax credit program was initiated, suddenly every used car salesman was in the renewable energy business and a lot of systems were installed that did not work. Selling green clean power is doable, but the battery component is usually necessary to chinch the deal. You know those little "bumper-stickers" Trace includes with every inverter? Maybe they should just change it to, "I baby-sit my batteries with Trace Power inverters" -- Kurt Nelson > >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > >To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >for info contact: >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From carlson at pe.net Fri Jul 14 11:17:07 2000 From: carlson at pe.net (Scott Carlson, Carlson Solar) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 08:17:07 -0700 Subject: Trace Sell back/ Payback Rant [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1103766018-951758591-963577656@topica.com> <0.1300002502.254568965-951758591-963584156@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1952289751-212058698-963587827@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 8683 bytes Desc: not available URL: From global at sover.net Fri Jul 14 11:21:44 2000 From: global at sover.net (Jeffrey Wolfe, Global Resources) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 08:21:44 -0700 Subject: Trace Sell back/ Payback Rant [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.963047042-212058698-963588104@topica.com> Todd, Take a look at a (somewhat radical) site called www.dieoff.com The presentation is a bit out there, but the material is incredible. Do a search on "oil extraction". A couple good papers are at: http://208.240.253.224/page138.htm (When will the Joy Ride End) http://208.240.253.224/page131.htm (SYNTHESIS -- WHAT IT ALL AMOUNTS TO, A portion of a book by C. J. Campbell) http://208.240.253.224/page140.htm (The End of Cheap Oil) Although the site is radical, many of the papers contained in it are written by "mainstream" consultants, geologists and others. The long and the short of it is, we will see high energy prices, and within the lifetimes of all but the oldest of us. So don't dispair at the lack of high energy prices, dispair at the lack of understanding and action on the part of our government and individuals who are bing totally hoodwinked by short-term tunnel-vision corporations. Happy reading. Sopabox is back in the closet. Jeff Jeffery D. Wolfe, P.E. Global Resource Options, LLP A Woman-Owned Vermont Limited Liability Partnership 4 Kibling Hill Road P.O. Box 51 Strafford, VT 05072 802/765-4632 802/765-9983 (Fax) global at sover.net www.globalresourceoptions.com "John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind" wrote: > What we really > need right now is 25 cent per kw unsubsidized power just as we need $4.00 gal > gasoline. I guess we have to wait 10 more years til the mother of all oil > crisis hits. In the meantime, we march on. > Todd Cory wrote: Unfortunately I doubt we will ever see that... Globally we have the "biggest stick" which I guess allows us to do whatever we want without worry, are "FREE" to be wasteful and excessive in our energy consumption and associated pollution. I see it as self centered, isolationist politics... TC -- Todd Cory - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunwise at win.bright.net Fri Jul 14 17:22:28 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (Kurt Nelson, SunWise) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 14:22:28 -0700 Subject: comments to TRACE [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.451384025-212058698-963609748@topica.com> At 09:08 AM 7/12/00 -0700, you wrote: >Hi All, > >Darn, I'm going to wade in here with some Trace info. First, yes, Trace is aware that there are issues with LBX mode in the SW Series inverters. To the best of my knowledge the new PS Series inverter has updated software which corrects the stated problem of buying power at night to float the batteries. > >Ezra Auerbach It is my understanding that the PS Series does not have software corrections for the silent mode, please let me know if I am incorrect. I have not yet received info on the new ST (sun-tie) inverters. Is this essentially another coming of the same old SW (or PS) inverter?? Kurt Nelson > > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ezra at lasqueti.net Fri Jul 14 17:47:08 2000 From: ezra at lasqueti.net (Ezra Auerbach, Trace Engineering) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 14:47:08 -0700 Subject: comments to TRACE [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.451384025-212058698-963609748@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.593363419-951758591-963611228@topica.com> Hi Kurt and everyone else, I guess I've done the worst thing a "Wrench" can do, I wrote an incorrect statement. Kurt is correct, the PS does not fix the silent sell issue and does its grid tie routines the same way as the SW does. Yes I know it's lumpy. My apologies for any confusion I may have spread. Thanks Kurt. The Sun Tie is a totally new product designed from the ground up for Grid Tie. Information can be found at www.tracegridtie.com or www.traceengineering.com. Ezra Auerbach "Kurt Nelson, SunWise" wrote: > At 09:08 AM 7/12/00 -0700, you wrote: > >Hi All, > > > >Darn, I'm going to wade in here with some Trace info. First, yes, Trace is > aware that there are issues with LBX mode in the SW Series inverters. To > the best of my knowledge the new PS Series inverter has updated software > which corrects the stated problem of buying power at night to float the > batteries. > > > >Ezra Auerbach > > It is my understanding that the PS Series does not have software corrections > for the silent mode, please let me know if I am incorrect. I have not yet > received info on the new ST (sun-tie) inverters. Is this essentially > another coming of the same old SW (or PS) inverter?? > > Kurt Nelson > > > > > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ellison at gisco.net Sat Jul 15 00:46:15 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison, Alternative Energy Systems) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 21:46:15 -0700 Subject: soap box [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.254568965-951758591-963584156@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.997589445-212058698-963636375@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 4148 bytes Desc: not available URL: From toddcory at jps.net Sat Jul 15 13:54:47 2000 From: toddcory at jps.net (Todd Cory, Bald Mt. Solar) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 10:54:47 -0700 Subject: Talk of the Nation at the MREF [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1726598925-212058698-963683687@topica.com> http://www.npr.org/ramfiles/totn/20000616.totn.01.ram -- Todd Cory KE6SXS toddcory at jps.net Bald Mountain Solar P.O. Box 689 Mt. Shasta, Ca. 96067 (530) 926-1079 A loving heart is the truest wisdom. - Charles Dickens, 1812-1870 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From aurora at toad.net Sun Jul 16 07:12:33 2000 From: aurora at toad.net (Jason Fisher, Aurora Energy) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 04:12:33 -0700 Subject: Trace charger [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.477530596-951758591-963413300@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1986157455-212058698-963745953@topica.com> Chuck, If FETs weren't damaged by generator high voltage running out of fuel like Tom suggested, a similar thing could have happened by a lightning surge coming in on generator line (assuming gen is outside). Are there any suppressors on the system? ---- Jason Fisher Aurora Energy 86 Conduit St. Annapolis, MD 21401 USA Voice/ Fax: 410-268-3088 email: aurora at toad.net > -----Original Message----- > From: Chuck Heath, SunPower [mailto:sunpwr at jps.net] > Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2000 7:48 AM > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Subject: Trace charger [RE-wrenches] > > > Client reported charger of a SW 4024 (v. 4.01) not working properly. Site > visit confirmed this. Only charging source is a Kohler 12 RY generator, > re-wired for 120 VAC (12 kW before altitude derating). Battery is type > 85-25 two-volt cells, 1270 AH @ 20 hr. discharge rate. System installed > in 1998. > > Symptoms: Trace sees AC-2 Good from Kohler, goes into Bulk charging for > only 30-35 seconds, then drops out of Bulk and back to inverting for 10 > seconds until cycle repeats. Kohler voltage is a steady 117-118 VAC > whether under load or not. Trace reports Kohler frequency as rock-solid > 60 cps. > > After nearly 6 hours generator runtime, was able to raise battery voltage > from 26.8 to 27.2 VDC - not nearly enough. At-rest battery voltage was > 24.9 VDC. Set Gen Amps AC (Menu #11) and Set Max Charge Amps AC (Menu > #10) are both at 35 Amps AC. Lower values did not change results, nor did > changing Set Float Voltage (27.1 VDC) to match Set Bulk Voltage setting > (Menu #10) of 29.8 VDC. > > Bryan at Trace Tech Support ( and > telephone extension 2203) recommended switching Kohler output from SW Gen > Input to SW Grid Input, AC-1. > > Did that. Result was the same, except for causing a Generator Start error > which shut down the Kohler in less than a minute from RY 7. Running the > Kohler using its "Run" instead of the "Auto" switch position caused the > same cycling of 30-35 sec. Bulk charging, 10 sec. of inverting, then back > to Bulk charging. Ambient air temp was 68 upon arrival, 86 degrees F. by > early afternoon. Trace internal fan worked just fine. > > All Trace menu settings were checked at least twice and found to be > correct. > Did not try using the default menu settings. > > Ideas? > > Chuck Heath "Plugging into Sunshine since 1989" > Big Oak Flat CA > sunpwr at jps.net > 209 962-7012 > > - - - - - - - > To send a message to the list use: > > To view an archive of previous messages go to: > > To unsubscribe send an email message to: > > > To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to > > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > for info contact: > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From aurora at toad.net Sun Jul 16 07:12:34 2000 From: aurora at toad.net (Jason Fisher, Aurora Energy) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 04:12:34 -0700 Subject: Module Conductor Temperatures [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.67529519-212058698-963745954@topica.com> Friends, I just installed 3kW of Astropower 110s for a grid-tied customer and was pleased to notice that Astropower now has a minimum conductor temperature of 75 degrees noted on these modules. I checked an older AP-75 and it was 90 but a new AP-120 was also 75. The series fuse was also stated at 15 Amps on the 110s and 120s. This means that legally, one could hook up these modules with regular THWN (not type II) and most TC cable. UF would still not be acceptable because of its 60 degree rating and I'm sure that this change would not convince Mr. Wiles that "Carflex" (NM Flexible Liquidtight) would be an acceptable conduit, but it seems like a positive step in the right direction. I have always wondered if the 90 degree rating was not the result of a misunderstanding by the manufacturers and the NEC. Since THWN has a 90 degree rating when dry and only drops to 75 in wet locations. PV panels can get hot when dry, but usually are not so when wet. I have also wondered at what point, technically, can we make a transition to lower temp wire? Once you hit a 75 degree rated fuseblock or other terminal, or once we enter a "dry location"? I've never asked an inspector though, afraid of starting an over analysis of a system! This said, I'm not sure whether I'll start using THWN right away on these modules. How about you all out there. Have you found heat damaged insulation on module wires on older systems? I know that UF cable was (and is?) pretty common as well. Do you all consider the use of USE-II, RHW-II, and THWN-II only when getting inspected or is there validity in this requirement? thanks ---- Jason Fisher Aurora Energy 86 Conduit St. Annapolis, MD 21401 USA Voice/ Fax: 410-268-3088 email: aurora at toad.net - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunpwr at jps.net Sun Jul 16 15:23:38 2000 From: sunpwr at jps.net (Chuck Heath, SunPower) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 12:23:38 -0700 Subject: Trace charger [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.881356122-212058698-963775418@topica.com> Jason Fisher of Aurora Energy suggested... >If FETs weren't damaged by generator high voltage running out of fuel like >Tom suggested, a similar thing could have happened by a lightning surge >coming in on generator line (assuming gen is outside). Are there any >suppressors on the system? The Kohler 12RY, Trace SW4024, DC250 and 85-25 battery are all inside the "Powerhouse", an 8 x 8 ft. outbuilding about 125 ft. from the house/garage. All AC and control wiring is buried conduit - none overhead. The location is down in a year-round creek canyon surrounded on 4 sides by National Forest. There are no suppressors on the system. SW and Kohler share the same ground rod. AFAIK, the Kohler has never run out of fuel while tied to the Trace. The LP storage tank is 1,150 gallon capacity, dedicated to just the Kohler. Cordially, Chuck _who still wants to scope the AC output_ p.s. Still no reply from Bryan at Trace Tech Support, emailed 7/12/00, describing this problem. The owner thinks _I'm slow_ not getting answers! - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From allan at positivenergy.com Mon Jul 17 20:48:38 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 17:48:38 -0700 Subject: Wind tower siting [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.826406938-951758591-963881318@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 3455 bytes Desc: not available URL: From michael.welch at homepower.com Tue Jul 18 17:52:36 2000 From: michael.welch at homepower.com (Michael Welch, Home Power) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:52:36 -0700 Subject: RE marketing list [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.593363419-951758591-963611228@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.451384025-212058698-963609748@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.945416817-212058698-963957156@topica.com> Hello there gang. For awhile there was discussion about the need for a separate mailing list for those of you in the RE business that want to discuss various marketing techniques and related info. There was never really any "consensus" about whether the list should be spun off from this one, but there were enough of you that were interested that it is worth a try. Bill Roush and I founded a list for the market discussions purpose, and he is going to moderate it. He is back from summer vacation, so as of now, RE marketing will be considered off-topic for this Wrenches list. If the new list does not work out for whatever reason, then we will resume accepting marketing topics on the Wrenches list at the level that we had been allowing it in the recent past. To join the new list, send a message to: RE-Markets-subscribe at topica.com Bill will take it from there. Michael Welch ------------------------ "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." Edward Abbey Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com Associate Editor, Home Power magazine Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From joe.schwartz at homepower.com Tue Jul 18 21:12:04 2000 From: joe.schwartz at homepower.com (Joe Schwartz, Home Power) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:12:04 -0700 Subject: Wind tower siting [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.826406938-951758591-963881318@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.826406938-951758591-963881318@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1602989254-951758591-963969124@topica.com> Hey Allan, This might be an angle for you and your customer. Mick Sagrillo gave me this idea. When I approached the county planning department regarding zoning for my Jake project here in Medford, OR I stressed that the wind turbine was going to generate electricity for agricultural purposes, mainly irrigation. This isn't necessarily the case, but ag. zoning guidelines are almost always more relaxed than residential ones. Our property is zoned for Exclusive Farm Use (EFU). We had no trouble getting zoning clearance for the tower and I definitely think the ag. angle helped. Another idea would be to list electricity for fire control as the primary function of the wind genny. The county will no doubt be happy to hear your customer is serious about that. The trick is to figure out WHAT the county wants to hear. Tower/footing engineering probably needs to be calculated with specific local variables, seismic zone designation, etc...but I'd be happy to send along our tower engineering if you think it will be useful. Best, Joe >Wrenches: > >I have a client with land near me, who has two old 3kW Jakes that he >wants to put up. This is on rural land that has historically been >off-grid since it was subdivided in the 70s; there are several wind >towers within a 2-3 mile radius of his land that Windy installed in >the 70s and 80s. The county is not allowing him to erect his towers >because of current height restrictions, that I believe have been >enacted to control the proliferation of cell phone and broadcast >communications towers. > >Are we on the cutting edge of a new barrier to renewables in >affluent areas? (His/our area isn't affluent at all, but Santa Fe >County is.) Here is his situation and request for help, in his own >words: > >"I am applying for a variance in Santa Fe County, New Mexico to >erect two wind generator towers. The county limit is 45' to blade >tip,allowing a tower height of 37'. Conventional wisdom calls for a >30' minimum height above all surrounding obstructions. I have a >building at 15-1/2' tall, leaving only a 21-1/2' clearance. This >45' limit is clearly too short. I am requesting a variance to 58' >to blade tip based on extreme hardship because no grid power exists >within 2-1/2 miles of my property, thus I must produce my own power. >To be limited to 45' would result in poor performance and more >expensive solar sources would have to be added. > >Any "engineering documentation" that addresses power production as a >function of tower height would be helpful, as the county is asking >for an engineer's credential. Also, any ideas on argument or >related issues would be appreciated." > >I told him I would post this to the wrenches and forward appropriate >responses. Thanking you in advance for any help, Allan Sindelar at >Positive Energy. >- - - - - - - >To send a message to the list use: > >To view an archive of previous messages go to: ><http://www.topica.com/lists >/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send an email message to: > >To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to ><>http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenche >s/> > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: ><>http://www.homepower.com> > >for info contact: >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. >http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics Joe Schwartz Home Power Magazine PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA Email:joe.schwartz at homepower.com Web: http://www.homepower.com - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From gosolar at xtra.co.nz Sat Jul 22 18:11:35 2000 From: gosolar at xtra.co.nz (John Veix, Solar Electric Specialists) Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 15:11:35 -0700 Subject: RE marketing list [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.451384025-212058698-963609748@topica.com> <0.1300002502.945416817-212058698-963957156@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.676593587-212058698-964303895@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 1470 bytes Desc: not available URL: From freepower at freepower.co.nz Sat Jul 22 23:07:21 2000 From: freepower at freepower.co.nz (Carl Emerson) Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 20:07:21 -0700 Subject: Link to participants details [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.751478790-212058698-964321641@topica.com> I have noticed that the link to participants details is not currently working The link seems to have an extra character that brings you to an error page. -- Regards, Carl Emerson Manager FREEPOWER LTD. "Harnessing Natural Energy" AUCKLAND 356 East Coast Road, Mairangi Bay, P.O. Box 68-247, AUCKLAND, New Zealand. Voice +64 9 478-0404 Mobile 021-633999 Cellfax 021-2919399 Fax +64 9 478-0405 Email emerson at freepower.co.nz - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Mon Jul 24 01:09:14 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (R. Sparks Scott) Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 22:09:14 -0700 Subject: Link to participants details [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.751478790-212058698-964321641@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.767646204-212058698-964415354@topica.com> At 08:07 PM 7/22/00 -0700, you wrote: >I have noticed that the link to participants details is not currently >working Carl (and All); Depending on your operating system and browser, you may not be being pointed to the correct location by clicking on the hyperlink at the bottom of each message. Try typing in the full path, or click on this: Michael, it might be prudent to update the mailing list to include the full path??? -S - - - - - - - To send a message to the list use: To view an archive of previous messages go to: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are, go to Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From michael.welch at homepower.com Mon Jul 24 14:10:58 2000 From: michael.welch at homepower.com (Michael Welch, Home Power) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 11:10:58 -0700 Subject: Link to participants details [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.751478790-212058698-964321641@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2000064076-212058698-964462258@topica.com> Carl Emerson wrote at 08:07 PM 07/22/2000 -0700: >I have noticed that the link to participants details is not currently >working > >The link seems to have an extra character that brings you to an error >page. Seems to be working OK this Monday a.m. PST. Michael Welch ------------------------ "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." Edward Abbey Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com Associate Editor, Home Power magazine Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 - - - - - - - To send a message to the list: To view an archive of previous messages: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From freepower at freepower.co.nz Tue Jul 25 05:34:13 2000 From: freepower at freepower.co.nz (Carl Emerson) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 02:34:13 -0700 Subject: Link to participants details [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.2000064076-212058698-964462258@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.17975517-212058698-964517653@topica.com> "Michael Welch, Home Power" wrote: > Carl Emerson wrote at 08:07 PM 07/22/2000 -0700: > > >I have noticed that the link to participants details is not currently > >working > > > >The link seems to have an extra character that brings you to an error > >page. > > Seems to be working OK this Monday a.m. PST. > > Michael Welch > > ------------------------ No further problem for me either, thanks. Carl Emerson. - - - - - - - To send a message to the list: To view an archive of previous messages: To check out who the other RE-Wrench participants are: Hosted by Home Power magazine: for info contact: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From freepower at freepower.co.nz Tue Jul 25 16:54:25 2000 From: freepower at freepower.co.nz (Carl Emerson) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 13:54:25 -0700 Subject: Zomeworks Trackers [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.2000064076-212058698-964462258@topica.com> <0.1300002502.17975517-212058698-964517653@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2002141005-951758591-964558465@topica.com> Hullo there... Six months ago I installed three UTR-085 Zomeworks trackers in the North of New Zealand. Already the top bearing on one of the units is giving out and on inspection the other two are on the way out also. We have noticed that after a short time, there is considerable rust inside the box section steel frame, this is not a good look for the client. Lastly the shock absorbers were poorly painted and have started rusting also. Now the supplier in the US seems uninterested in supporting the product so I need the right contact at Zomeworks to raise these concerns. I would appreciate any comment and help concerning these matters. Many Thanks Carl Emerson Manager FREEPOWER LTD. "Harnessing Natural Energy" AUCKLAND 356 East Coast Road, Mairangi Bay, P.O. Box 68-247, AUCKLAND, New Zealand. Voice +64 9 478-0404 Mobile 021-633999 Cellfax 021-2919399 Fax +64 9 478-0405 Email emerson at freepower.co.nz Full support of Power Systems utilizing Solar, Wind and Water Energy including 'Grid Embedded' generation. System Design and Diagnosis, Supply of Equipment, Site Assessment, Solar water pumping to 600 Ft down without batteries. Consultants for Sunpower Co. NZ Distributor for Canon/Unisolar Solar Panels and Photovoltaic Roofing. NZ Electronic rep. SOMA Wind generators. NZ Distriibutor Chromagen Solar Hot Water Systems The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunwise at win.bright.net Tue Jul 25 20:14:41 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (Kurt Nelson, SunWise) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 17:14:41 -0700 Subject: Small DC stuff [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.77923404-212058698-964570481@topica.com> Greetings fellow wrenchers, I still incorporate some custom DC stuff into most systems I install. A couple quick questions for those of you who also have pondered.... 1) I make some custom LED nite-lites for some clients and have always designed the dropping resistor to provide for 30VDC (24 volt system) and 15VDC (12 volt systems). I am considering this to be max system voltage (except EQ and they better have em off). Someone doing LED's at the MREA's E-fair told me that LED's are also damaged by undervoltage as well as overvoltage. Tell me it aint so! 2) I also incorporate some Low voltage DC brushless "muffin" fans into some systems... composting toilets, ventilation, etc. A guy stopped into my shop and wanted to do a small PV direct ventilating system and I recommended a small panel and a couple such fans. I know I have done PV direct brushless muffin fans before, but I looked very foolish when I went to show him how to put these simple components together and they wouldn't run. Apparently some of these fans handle the various voltages they may encounter in PV direct applications, while the electronics package in others will not??? I've got a few in inventory that will run panel direct and a whole bunch that will not. Any thoughts appreciated. Kurt Nelson - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cpae1 at aol.com Tue Jul 25 22:04:39 2000 From: cpae1 at aol.com (Frank Fowler, Crystal Pines Alt. Energy ) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 19:04:39 -0700 Subject: Zomeworks Trackers [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1903263444-212058698-964577079@topica.com> Carl, Call Dave at, 1-800-279-6342 ext.#226 Have a Great Day! SUNcerely, Frank Fowler Crystal Pines Alternative Energy Located in the Sierra foothills, just 30 miles southeast of Chico, CA. www.solarenergy-alt.com 530-532-1972 Living off the grid with the products we market & install. - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From wkennedy at jademountain.com Wed Jul 26 13:08:53 2000 From: wkennedy at jademountain.com (Wes Kennedy, Jade Mountain) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 10:08:53 -0700 Subject: Solar Pump Jack [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1903263444-212058698-964577079@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1903263444-212058698-964577079@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.13880859-951758591-964631333@topica.com> Hey list, I have a pumping application that is a bit of a doozy. 850 feet to static water, needs just a bit, 200 gpd or so. Customer has requested a jack pump. Windy can't help me, anyone else know of solar jack pumps still being manufactured? We could convert an AC model if needed. Thanks! Wes Kennedy Evolutionary Technologist "Your philosophy is not what you believe, it's how you live!" -j rubin - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From windy at dankoffsolar.com Wed Jul 26 14:05:15 2000 From: windy at dankoffsolar.com (Windy Dankoff, Dankoff Solar) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 11:05:15 -0700 Subject: Solar Pump Jack [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.13880859-951758591-964631333@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1903263444-212058698-964577079@topica.com> <0.1300002502.13880859-951758591-964631333@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.98036078-212058698-964634715@topica.com> >Hey list, > >I have a pumping application that is a bit of a doozy. 850 feet to >static water, needs just a bit, 200 gpd or so. Customer has >requested a jack pump. Windy can't help me, anyone else know of >solar jack pumps still being manufactured? We could convert an AC >model if needed. Windy CAN help you. I sent you a document called Solar Retrofit for Pump Jacks and Windmills, but I got your address wrong. I'll send it again, sorry. A pump jack is a belt-driven machine, to be driven by any motor or engine. It need not be special "solar". However, it is very heavy equipment to install, so there must be somebody capable, locally. In windmill country, that's not hard to find, but ... It's also expensive, like guestimate $10/ft. for the downhole equipment alone. If any of you want the solar pump jack document, please ask me. It goes through the whole design process. Here is the preamble: Dankoff Solar has designed and supplied solar pump jack systems since 1982. In cases where a solar submersible is not capable or desirable, we supply system components to dealers and installers. Normally, we recommend that the jack and down-hole equipment be supplied by the installing contractor. We will be happy to supply all of the power system components that you will need, consisting of: - PV modules (solar panels) - Fixed or tracking array rack - DC motor - Pump controller (linear current booster) - Disconnect switch, float switch, other supplies This document will guide you through the design process, and will remind you of considerations that are easy to overlook. Please ask us for help when necessary. THIS DOCUMENT is divided into 3 parts: 1. CUSTOMER QUESTIONAIRE -- Your customer can use this form to supply you the needed data. 2. DESIGNER'S WORKSHEET -- This guides you through the design process. 3. NOTICE TO THE CUSTOMER -- Copy or adapt this notice and give it to the customer to avoid any possible misunderstandings. -- =========================== From the solar powered office of Windy Dankoff, President =========================== Dankoff Solar Products, Inc. Wholesale distributor of solar-electric equipment Manufacturer & distributor of solar water pumps 2810 Industrial Rd. Santa Fe, NM 87505 (505) 473-3800 FAX 473-3830 E-mail: info at dankoffsolar.com SEE OUR INFORMATIVE WEB SITE AT: http://www.dankoffsolar.com =========================== To contact Windy Dankoff directly: Most days I am at my home office e-mail: windy at dankoffsolar.com tel/fax: (505) 466-0059 ~ amateur radio KE5HV ~ =========================== - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From allan at positivenergy.com Wed Jul 26 21:34:47 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 18:34:47 -0700 Subject: Fw: RE Marketing State Tax Credits [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1276640788-212058698-964661687@topica.com> Not sure if this went out to all the wrenches, to this is a forward... From: solarbeacon at email.msn.com To: RE-Markets at topica.com Date: Wednesday, July 26, 2000 6:32 PM Subject: RE Marketing State Tax Credits >Senate Bill S2718 (if passed) would implement a 15% solar PV and hot water tax credit. Sponsor is Smith R-NH. How do we best track this (and other similar) new federal initiative that seems to have the support of both parties? > >I'm being asked by people in Kansas what the 'right' percentage of tax >credits would be for solar electric and solar hot water and pool and >small wind. >Does anyone have experience with current state tax credits? Could you >let us know what level is effective and what isn't? Thanks, Bill, Solar >Electric/KC. > >Solar Forum 2001, April 20-25, Washington, DC. Sponsored by 13 organizations, including, ASES, SEIA, IREC, AIA-COE. >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From tom at ecs-solar.com Thu Jul 27 08:11:53 2000 From: tom at ecs-solar.com (Tom Lane) Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 05:11:53 -0700 Subject: Zomeworks Trackers [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.2000064076-212058698-964462258@topica.com> <0.1300002502.17975517-212058698-964517653@topica.com> <0.1300002502.2002141005-951758591-964558465@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.956306365-212058698-964699913@topica.com> I do not recommend installing Zomeworks near the ocean or near a saltwater environment. In tropical humid climates, use rust destroyer by Advanced Protective Products (17-10 River Road Suite C; Fair Lawn, NJ 07410; 201-794-2000). It is a patented rust primer that turns rust into paint. A day after the the rust destroyer is applied, paint over it with a flat black exterior BBQ grill paint. Good Luck! Tom Lane Energy Conservation Services of N. Fl, inc. ----- Original Message ----- From: Carl Emerson To: Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2000 4:54 PM Subject: Re: Zomeworks Trackers [RE-wrenches] > Hullo there... > > Six months ago I installed three UTR-085 Zomeworks trackers in the North of New Zealand. > > Already the top bearing on one of the units is giving out and on inspection the other two are on the way > out also. > > We have noticed that after a short time, there is considerable rust inside the box section steel frame, > this is not a good look for the client. > > Lastly the shock absorbers were poorly painted and have started rusting also. > > Now the supplier in the US seems uninterested in supporting the product so I need the right contact at > Zomeworks to raise these concerns. > > I would appreciate any comment and help concerning these matters. > > Many Thanks > > > Carl Emerson > Manager > FREEPOWER LTD. "Harnessing Natural Energy" > > AUCKLAND > 356 East Coast Road, Mairangi Bay, P.O. Box 68-247, AUCKLAND, New > Zealand. > Voice +64 9 478-0404 Mobile 021-633999 Cellfax 021-2919399 > Fax +64 9 478-0405 Email emerson at freepower.co.nz > > Full support of Power Systems utilizing Solar, Wind and Water Energy including > 'Grid Embedded' generation. > > System Design and Diagnosis, Supply of Equipment, Site Assessment, > Solar water pumping to 600 Ft down without batteries. > > Consultants for Sunpower Co. > > NZ Distributor for Canon/Unisolar Solar Panels and Photovoltaic Roofing. > NZ Electronic rep. SOMA Wind generators. > NZ Distriibutor Chromagen Solar Hot Water Systems > > The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to > which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged > material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or > taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or > entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received > this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any > computer. > > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > > > The archive of previous messages: > > To unsubscribe: > > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > > For info contact list moderator: > > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From allan at positivenergy.com Fri Jul 28 22:14:05 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 19:14:05 -0700 Subject: Wireless communications [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2134072555-951758591-964836845@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 2609 bytes Desc: not available URL: From toddcory at jps.net Sat Jul 29 09:44:53 2000 From: toddcory at jps.net (Todd Cory, Bald Mt. Solar) Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 06:44:53 -0700 Subject: Wireless communications [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.2134072555-951758591-964836845@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.391401991-951758591-964878293@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 2620 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sebpv at stelle.net Tue Aug 1 11:02:42 2000 From: sebpv at stelle.net (Steve Bell) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 08:02:42 -0700 Subject: Wireless communications [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.742018938-212058698-965142162@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 3179 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bob at energyoutfitters.com Tue Aug 1 12:18:52 2000 From: bob at energyoutfitters.com (Bob Maynard, Energy Outfitters) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 09:18:52 -0700 Subject: Wireless communications [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.2134072555-951758591-964836845@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.233964271-212058698-965146732@topica.com> Hi Allan, Satelite wireless is still to expensive per minute to be a practical consideration. Cellular can be a choice, data interfaces exist that convert the cellular to standard 2 wire telephone operation, complete with dial tone. This works ok for voice communications, but max data transmission speed is 9600 baud. Services such as Direct TV that require a phone line can sometimes tell a call is wireless and they will deny service. The wireless landline repeaters such as Richard and Karen use would be the best choice I know of. Congrats on the system and best wishes. Regards, Bob Maynard, Energy Outfitters allan wrote: > Part 1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain) > Encoding: quoted-printable - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Tue Aug 1 15:15:17 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 12:15:17 -0700 Subject: Small DC stuff [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.77923404-212058698-964570481@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.501377053-951758591-965157317@topica.com> Kurt, I have been away to SolWest fair so this may be too late to help.... We find 24 volt muffin fans will operate on 12 volts at lower power, so they are a safe bet to operate direct solar on 15 to 20 volts. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems From: Kurt Nelson, SunWise To: Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2000 5:14 PM Subject: Small DC stuff [RE-wrenches] ) I also incorporate some Low voltage DC brushless "muffin" fans into some > systems... composting toilets, ventilation, etc. A guy stopped into my shop > and wanted to do a small PV direct ventilating system and I recommended a > small panel and a couple such fans. I know I have done PV direct brushless > muffin fans before, but I looked very foolish when I went to show him how to > put these simple components together and they wouldn't run. Apparently some > of these fans handle the various voltages they may encounter in PV direct > applications, while the electronics package in others will not??? I've got > a few in inventory that will run panel direct and a whole bunch that will not. > > Any thoughts appreciated. - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From roy at four-winds-energy.com Tue Aug 1 16:28:12 2000 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler, Four Winds RE) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 13:28:12 -0700 Subject: Help with SW problem... [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.304534013-951758591-965161692@topica.com> I sure hate to admit I'm stumped, but here goes...I have a customer with a single SW4024 who says her appliances keep burning out. So far (she says) she's had several appliances fail...her TV, furnace, washing machine, microwave and today...her refrigerator. Needless to say, she's pretty ticked off. My question to her was why did she tell me after the fact....these appliances failed over a 6 month period. I did not get a chance to look at the old appliances...I do know that the microwave was over 15 years old (!) as is the fridge. No clue on the TV or washer age. The furnace was only 1 year old (an oil burner) and it blew up! According to the insurance adjuster, oil accumulated in the combustion chamber and then ignited. I know how oil burners work and this sounded like a control problem to me...aren't there safety controls in place to prevent this from happening?? System specs: SW4024 (w/ DC250) set to float mode w/ grid usage timer set to charge during off peak nighttime hours...900 watts of solar w/ Trace TC60 controller...1050 AH battery bank (Surrette CH375)...and all working according to specs. I have LA302AC surge arrestors in both the grid fed breaker box and the inverter fed sub-panel...LA302DC arrestors in both the DC250 and the sub-array combiner box. System and house grounding is up to code, as is my installation...I've done a lot of these SW installations and not had any problems until this one. I'm stumped!!! Please let me know if you have heard of similar problems or if you think of anything else I should check! Sleepless in NY Roy Butler Four Winds RE - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solarbeacon at email.msn.com Tue Aug 1 16:37:49 2000 From: solarbeacon at email.msn.com (Bill Roush, Solar Electric Systems) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 13:37:49 -0700 Subject: Zomeworks Trackers [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1411654655-951758591-965077075@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.329554557-212058698-965162269@topica.com> Welcome, Rob Roush, to the Wrenches list, Best, Bill Roush Solar Electric Systems of Kansas City, Inc. 13700 W. 108th St. Lenexa, KS 66215 913-338-1939 800-632-9751 913-469-5522fax solarbeacon at email.msn.com www.solarbeacon.com -----Original Message----- From: Jonathan Hill [mailto:solarjon at netshel.net] Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 3:58 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Re: Zomeworks Trackers [RE-wrenches] Hi Michael- I would like to add my assistant designer, Rob Roush, to the wrenches list. He has 10 years PV design experience and would benefit greatly from wrenches. His email is: rob at sierrasolar.com Regards, Jon Hill ----------------- Sierra Solar Systems 109-N Argall Way Nevada City, CA 95959 tech info and foreign orders: (530) 265-8441 order line: (800) 51-SOLAR (US only) FAX: (530) 265-6151 e-mail: world wide web: Because of the high volume of e-mail to which I respond, please leave _all_ of the previous message (unless it's unbearable) in your reply so I can better remember your original message. - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From i2p at aol.com Tue Aug 1 16:48:00 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (Don Loweburg, Offline) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 13:48:00 -0700 Subject: Help with SW problem... [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.851047518-212058698-965162880@topica.com> Roy, I would want to put a scope on the inverter output and see what the waveform looks like. If that is good, then the next thing I'd do is log the inverter output over a few days to see if there are transients or other junk on the system. This sounds weird and its possible that these problems have nothing to do with the inverter. your systems seems well designed like hundreds we've all done before. Best, Don Loweburg - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ezra at lasqueti.net Tue Aug 1 17:36:59 2000 From: ezra at lasqueti.net (Ezra Auerbach, Trace Engineering) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 14:36:59 -0700 Subject: Help with SW problem... [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.304534013-951758591-965161692@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.175192645-212058698-965165819@topica.com> Hi all, I'm with Don on this one. I've run all those type appliances except oil furnace off my SW4024 for over six years and nothing has even glitched let alone burnt out. Heck I also ran most of those loads from an old U series with no real problems except the photocopier which would almost never run from the inverter. (It did work fine with the SW). About the only idea I have is to wonder if all these loads were kept plugged in while the inverter was in search mode. I always unplug (or control with a power bar) loads which will try to start the inverter (i.e. phantom loads like the TV instant on circuit). Like I say, it's my only thought on the matter. Good luck. Ezra Auerbach "Roy Butler, Four Winds RE" wrote: > I sure hate to admit I'm stumped, but here goes...I have a customer with a > single SW4024 who says her appliances keep burning out. So far (she says) > she's had several appliances fail...her TV, furnace, washing machine, > microwave and today...her refrigerator. Needless to say, she's pretty > ticked off. My question to her was why did she tell me after the > fact....these appliances failed over a 6 month period. I did not get a > chance to look at the old appliances...I do know that the microwave was > over 15 years old (!) as is the fridge. No clue on the TV or washer age. > The furnace was only 1 year old (an oil burner) and it blew up! According > to the insurance adjuster, oil accumulated in the combustion chamber and > then ignited. I know how oil burners work and this sounded like a control > problem to me...aren't there safety controls in place to prevent this from > happening?? > System specs: SW4024 (w/ DC250) set to float mode w/ grid usage timer set > to charge during off peak nighttime hours...900 watts of solar w/ Trace > TC60 controller...1050 AH battery bank (Surrette CH375)...and all working > according to specs. I have LA302AC surge arrestors in both the grid fed > breaker box and the inverter fed sub-panel...LA302DC arrestors in both the > DC250 and the sub-array combiner box. System and house grounding is up to > code, as is my installation...I've done a lot of these SW installations and > not had any problems until this one. I'm stumped!!! > Please let me know if you have heard of similar problems or if you think of > anything else I should check! > Sleepless in NY > Roy Butler > Four Winds RE > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > > > The archive of previous messages: > > To unsubscribe: > > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > > For info contact list moderator: > > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From roy at four-winds-energy.com Tue Aug 1 17:46:34 2000 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler, Four Winds RE) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 14:46:34 -0700 Subject: Help with SW problem... [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.304534013-951758591-965161692@topica.com> <0.1300002502.175192645-212058698-965165819@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.469445118-212058698-965166394@topica.com> Hi Ezra, Thanks for the input...she's not using the search mode...this customer has several devices which preclude its' use, so I'm afraid that's not it. And I run my whole place on a DR3624 inverter....everything runs great here...even during generator/battery charging. I have crashed my hard drive here but that was...err...ummm...operator error (read stupidity on my part!). So I can't understand this one....I guess I'll have to scope this SW! Roy - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Tue Aug 1 18:52:30 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 15:52:30 -0700 Subject: Help with SW problem... [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1596689479-212058698-965170350@topica.com> Roy, She probably didn't have lots of these problems before or she would have mentioned it. Any correlation to thunderstorms about the time of failures? Probably not. Of course she got her money out her 15 year old microwave and probably shouldn't have had that 15 year old fridge anyway. It is hard to blame them totally on the SW. Is she on on rural co-op? I have seen problems with the power companies voltage being way to high especially at night or during cool summer days. To the tune of 134 constant with spikes up to nearly 140. The power companies have to play some real fun games with voltage correction capacitors in the summer in order to keep the voltage steady. On cool days they can't predict the lack of load thus the voltage ends up a little on the high side. Have the failure happened at night or day? You are sure about your grounding? Two ground rods not bonded together can wreak havoc (during lightening storms). Is there a new factory on her substation? Old factory with new equipment? Most utility problems aren't the utilities fault. Usually it's your neighbors fault. My local utility offers a "Meter Treater" type of surge protector. They come out and pull the meter, install the meter treater in the empty socket then plug the meter right back in on top of the meter treater. They charge $29 for installation and $5 per month. I make all of customers get them. I don't know if it's any more effective than a LA302 type but it does have a 15,000 warranty that the LA302 doesn't. I always use those as well. Has she put a added a new photocopier or laser printer after you did your job? They have about as nasty a THD you can find. If so, get it on a circuit by itself with a decent surge strip on it. Of course I always tell my customers that I don't know how their appliances will run in inverter power. I do warn them that they might loose a few although I never had any real problems but I'm sure it's just luck. Good Luck Travis Creswell Ozark Solar - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Tue Aug 1 19:59:13 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 16:59:13 -0700 Subject: Wireless communications [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.2134072555-951758591-964836845@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1877575332-951758591-965174353@topica.com> Tried to reply to Allan at positicveenergy.com privately with no luck, so am posting info that may be excessive. Here is some info on capabilities of the wireless phone links from a neighboring business that we often refer customers to: Radio/Telephones for Rural Locations Kootenai Radio & Energy Systems Box 215-net, Kootenai, ID 83840 (208) 263-9755 ( 9am-7pm PACIFIC Time ) Do you live a mile or twenty beyond the last phone lines, yet need a telephone for personal & family uses, emergencies, for getting jobs or running a home-based business? Or maybe you need FAX or Email access, or even have access to the Internet. All of these things are possible from your remote home, cabin, or even from a boat-living situation. Radio/Telephone Links As more & more people move further away from the cities and civilization in general (smart move), they find they are also disconnected from some of the really essential services the rest of us use every day. People who are artists or authors, families and others who, after a long day's work, just like their "space" in the privacy and quiet of their mountain or desert home, would still like to have the convenience of a telephone. Kootenai Radio & Energy Systems offers the equipment and the skills to set it up -- or instruct you how to -- so you can have a telephone when you live back in the "toolies". With the typical telephone company charging between $8000 and $15,000+ per mile, you don't have to be that far out, to be looking at an exhorbitant installation fee for a phone, especially if you're the only house or two up that access you call a "road". Analog R/T's Radio/Telephone links start at $2995 for a complete system. That's the base price for a basic, one-line analog R/T package. For sure, there are more expensive units that have more power for longer distances, better antennas that will reach further down canyons or through dense forests, and more capabilities (such as FAX or text-only Email access). But in many cases, our lowest-priced package can do the job for you. They are 12-volt DC compatible, aesthetically almost invisible once installed, and built to commercial radio standards for reliability over the long term. Digital R/T's Digital R/T's (fast enough and secure for Internet access, plus regular voice, FAX & Email) start around $5700+ (for selected line of sight applications). We have Multiple-line Digital R/T's (3 or 4 or more lines) for those folks in larger families, or running a home-based business with Internet access, or for two or more close neighbors who want to share a system, but still have separate phone numbers. Multi-Line systems start around $ 9500 thru $10,650+. All Digital systems offer a significant benefit of voice security -- so others cannot listen in, a cost-option on Analog systems (voice scramblers). "Previously-Owned" R/T's and Radio Equipment Sometimes I have a "used" R/T system or two available If you call by phone, I can answer many of your questions, and get a MUCH better idea of what your specific situation is. This is the best thing to do first... Or, you can write a simple note requesting "R/T or Radio/Telephone information", with your name & address in it. Be sure to enclose $ 1.00 cash, or maybe 3 to 4 of those 33-cent postage stamps, to help with our postage, printing & ad costs. I'm still a "little guy" so it helps a bunch. Thanks ! Looking forward to helping you. Rick, Kootenai Radio posted by Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems ----- Original Message ----- From: allan To: New wrenches posting Sent: Friday, July 28, 2000 7:14 PM Subject: Wireless communications [RE-wrenches] Wrenches, I am in line to sell and install a large residential hybrid PV/genset system for a wealthy client. The general contractor wants to bring in 10,000 feet of buried grid wires for backup, laid in a trench to be dug for a phone land line. I suggested that he could use a dedicated wireless repeater phone to a land line and avoid the cost of the entire trench. The economics are there: wire alone laid by the REC utility was quoted at $30K, excluding trenching! If I can make a good case for a wireless phone system, a la the one used by Home Power, I may be able to get the whole trench approach stopped, keep grid out of this section of New Mexico next-to-wilderness, and do a better system for the client. What's best these days? I assume that repeater systems are more of a niche market, with cell phones most people's choice. Eventually, direct satellite linkup will make this whole question irrelevant--is it an option today? I have promised answers to the GC, and I'd like to provide accurate and up-to-date advice. Any would be appreciated. Thank you. Allan @ Positive Energy - - - - - - - - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunwise at win.bright.net Wed Aug 2 02:49:25 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (Kurt Nelson, SunWise) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 23:49:25 -0700 Subject: Help with SW problem... [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1076863802-212058698-965198965@topica.com> At 01:28 PM 8/1/00 -0700, you wrote: >I sure hate to admit I'm stumped, but here goes...I have a customer with a >single SW4024 who says her appliances keep burning out. Greetings Roy, In response to your clients SW woes I have a couple thoughts, both of which probably won't fix the problem (sorry). I really agree with the comments from Travis on grounding, which can directly damage appliances or possibly bring about damage to and from the inverter. Not only can grounding in two places be a really bad idea, it can be a mistake easily made. This is espically true when adding a PV system to a home that is already grid connected (and grounded), or even one that ends up getting connected to the grid by an electrician at a date later than the solar install (we're all trying to follow the same code?). The other thing...... why do I always end up being the "loads guy"?? I mean no offense here, but it seems from your description on the problem that the load end of the system received less attention than it really deserves. I've screwed up plenty, but these days, aside from the usual load profile info, I keep a record of appliances (often complete with model and s-numbers) and actually include most of this information in system bid proposals. Not only is this info helpful to the industry (Wrenches), it may also protect you leagally if things get really shitty. Finally, though we are told that everything will run on Traces SW series power, I have heard of instances where in some devices, including some frig-defrost timer circuits, fail. Kurt Nelson SOLutions - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From jay at asis.com Wed Aug 2 12:26:31 2000 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 09:26:31 -0700 Subject: Small DC stuff [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.77923404-212058698-964570481@topica.com> <0.1300002502.501377053-951758591-965157317@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1676776727-951758591-965233591@topica.com> Hi All, They might buzz like crazy though. jay "Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar" wrote: > Kurt, I have been away to SolWest fair so this may be too late to help.... > We find 24 volt muffin fans will operate on 12 volts at lower power, so they > are a safe bet to operate direct solar on 15 to 20 volts. > > Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com > Backwoods Solar Electric Systems > From: Kurt Nelson, SunWise > To: > Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2000 5:14 PM > Subject: Small DC stuff [RE-wrenches] > > ) I also incorporate some Low voltage DC brushless "muffin" fans into some > > systems... composting toilets, ventilation, etc. A guy stopped into my > shop > > and wanted to do a small PV direct ventilating system and I recommended a > > small panel and a couple such fans. I know I have done PV direct > brushless > > muffin fans before, but I looked very foolish when I went to show him how > to > > put these simple components together and they wouldn't run. Apparently > some > > of these fans handle the various voltages they may encounter in PV direct > > applications, while the electronics package in others will not??? I've > got > > a few in inventory that will run panel direct and a whole bunch that will > not. > > > > Any thoughts appreciated. > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > > > The archive of previous messages: > > To unsubscribe: > > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > > For info contact list moderator: > > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From jay at asis.com Wed Aug 2 12:26:39 2000 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 09:26:39 -0700 Subject: Help with SW problem... [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.304534013-951758591-965161692@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1962034641-212058698-965233599@topica.com> Hi Roy, 1. bad inverter 2. ground loop 3. two ground rods not bonded Good luck!! jay And let us know what the problem is so that we can know!! "Roy Butler, Four Winds RE" wrote: > I sure hate to admit I'm stumped, but here goes...I have a customer with a > single SW4024 who says her appliances keep burning out. So far (she says) > she's had several appliances fail...her TV, furnace, washing machine, > microwave and today...her refrigerator. Needless to say, she's pretty > ticked off. My question to her was why did she tell me after the > fact....these appliances failed over a 6 month period. I did not get a > chance to look at the old appliances...I do know that the microwave was > over 15 years old (!) as is the fridge. No clue on the TV or washer age. > The furnace was only 1 year old (an oil burner) and it blew up! According > to the insurance adjuster, oil accumulated in the combustion chamber and > then ignited. I know how oil burners work and this sounded like a control > problem to me...aren't there safety controls in place to prevent this from > happening?? > System specs: SW4024 (w/ DC250) set to float mode w/ grid usage timer set > to charge during off peak nighttime hours...900 watts of solar w/ Trace > TC60 controller...1050 AH battery bank (Surrette CH375)...and all working > according to specs. I have LA302AC surge arrestors in both the grid fed > breaker box and the inverter fed sub-panel...LA302DC arrestors in both the > DC250 and the sub-array combiner box. System and house grounding is up to > code, as is my installation...I've done a lot of these SW installations and > not had any problems until this one. I'm stumped!!! > Please let me know if you have heard of similar problems or if you think of > anything else I should check! > Sleepless in NY > Roy Butler > Four Winds RE > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > > > The archive of previous messages: > > To unsubscribe: > > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > > For info contact list moderator: > > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ecoelec at rof.net Wed Aug 2 12:50:14 2000 From: ecoelec at rof.net (Pat Kiernan, Eco Electric, Inc.) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 09:50:14 -0700 Subject: Help with SW problem [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1271223274-212058698-965235014@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 2162 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wkennedy at jademountain.com Wed Aug 2 13:49:17 2000 From: wkennedy at jademountain.com (Wes Kennedy, Jade Mountain) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 10:49:17 -0700 Subject: Invertrix inverters? [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1962034641-212058698-965233599@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.304534013-951758591-965161692@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1962034641-212058698-965233599@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1244692779-212058698-965238557@topica.com> Howdy, Anyone have any experience with Invertrix inverters? Modified sinewave, but digital metering, adjustable setpoints like the Trace SW stuff. Made in California, just saw some specs, but looking for field experience. Thanks! Wes Kennedy Evolutionary Technologist "Your philosophy is not what you believe, it's how you live!" -j rubin - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From klarson at appliedpower.com Wed Aug 2 14:24:27 2000 From: klarson at appliedpower.com (Kelly Larson, Alternative Energy Eng.) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 11:24:27 -0700 Subject: Best inverter parts [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.258078263-212058698-965240667@topica.com> Hello all, We are looking for the Low Idle Low Demand Option for a Best inverter model: M24-2500. Anyone have any parts laying around? Happy days, Kelly ===================================== Kelly Larson Alternative Energy Engineering/Applied Power Corp. 1155 Redway Dr./Box 339 Redway, Ca 95560 Voice: 800-777-6609 x126 Fax: 800-777-6648 Attn: Kelly e-mail: klarson at appliedpower.com - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From allan at positivenergy.com Wed Aug 2 15:20:05 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 12:20:05 -0700 Subject: Wireless communications [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1797178994-212058698-965244005@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 2515 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solarman4 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 2 16:30:48 2000 From: solarman4 at yahoo.com (Mark Downing) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 13:30:48 -0700 Subject: Invertrix inverters? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.101255309-212058698-965248248@topica.com> I have sold two of the 2500W units. The first one went on a house boat in Kentucky, mainly to run the refrigerator. It would not run the Kenmore refrigerator, but the problem turned out to be the refrigerator controls. The refrigerator would run through one cycle after disconnecting from shore power, shut off, and was not able to restart. No, this was not a sleep mode problem. Something in the controls just didn't like the mod-sine power. They replaced the refrigerator and are totally pleased with the inverter. The other unit is powering a refrigerator and running a well pump for an Amish family. (98% of my business is Amish.) In this installation we are using the gen start option. The gen start worked for a while and quit. I sent the inverter back for checkout and upgrades without the gen start unit, at Ray Dashner's instruction. I found out today from a tech that Ray is purely marketing, and gave me the wrong advice. The inverter is back, and of course, the gen start still doesn't work. I will now be sending the gen start back for repair. Maybe it will behave better the next time around. They boast about a 6 year warranty. Read the fine print. Only the first year is 100%. It tapers off rapidly, with the 6th year being something like 6%. They added several features with the latest software upgrades. They added a "run time hours" display at powerup. Many of the new features are to benefit Invertrix, such as keeping track of errors. If you wire anything wrong, it is logged and the warranty is void. One interesting thing is that you must verify that the input and output COMMON wires that you are connecting to the inverter are isolated. If they aren't isolated, bye bye warranty. (Trace has them in common on all of their inverters as far as I know.) The bare ground wires cannot be bonded to the commons either on the Invertrix. All operational/gen start/charging parameters are setup by plugging in a touch tone phone. This is pretty cool. The remote control has only one button. Holding it for over 1 second will turn the unit on or off. A brief tap will turn the gen start on or off. Holding it for something like 30 seconds will initiate an equalization charge with the generator. My opinion of the Invertrix is still forming. The jury is still out on the gen start option. Mark, Hurshtown Alt. Power --- "Wes Kennedy, Jade Mountain" wrote: > Howdy, > > Anyone have any experience with Invertrix inverters? > Modified sinewave, but digital metering, adjustable > setpoints like the Trace SW stuff. > > Made in California, just saw some specs, but looking > for field experience. > > Thanks! > > Wes Kennedy > Evolutionary Technologist __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From microhydro at dplus.net Wed Aug 2 18:02:37 2000 From: microhydro at dplus.net (Ron Macleod) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 15:02:37 -0700 Subject: Wireless communications [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1797178994-212058698-965244005@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1620411573-951758591-965253757@topica.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From telliot at wagonmaker.com Wed Aug 2 23:09:00 2000 From: telliot at wagonmaker.com (Tom Elliot) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 20:09:00 -0700 Subject: Help with SW problem [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1271223274-212058698-965235014@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1984535683-212058698-965272140@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 5416 bytes Desc: not available URL: From creuter at rocketmail.com Thu Aug 3 01:04:45 2000 From: creuter at rocketmail.com (carl reuter) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 22:04:45 -0700 Subject: Sw upgrade chips [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2013949916-212058698-965279085@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 2141 bytes Desc: not available URL: From i2p at aol.com Thu Aug 3 14:12:36 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (Don Loweburg, Offline) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 11:12:36 -0700 Subject: Sw upgrade chips [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1921947879-212058698-965326356@topica.com> Hi Carl, First of all --you must ask for the upgrade- Inverters ship with the standard chip. So you should have no problem with the one year old unit and a new one. Go ahead and stack the system and then apply for net metering. Your local util may or may not demand the IEEE929 upgrade. If they don't then you are in. If they do -Trace will supply you with upgrades for both inverters. Now the fun begins. The latest upgrades implement the 929 that has a broader voltage window that should avoid nuisence disconnects--I say should --since I have not had field experience using them. If you do install the latest IEEE929 chips and have problems-please let me know. Best, Don Loweburg - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From roy at four-winds-energy.com Thu Aug 3 15:43:18 2000 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler, Four Winds RE) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 12:43:18 -0700 Subject: SW problem solved (??) [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.983795786-212058698-965331798@topica.com> First...I want to thank everyone for their prompt and very helpful answers to my call for help. The common thread thru most of your replies was grounding. I'm pretty anal about grounding and was certain that I had not created any parallel ground paths, that I had seperated grounds and neutrals in subpanels, etc., so I decided to check the existing main ground system on the homes' service entrance. In this neck of the woods, utilities require 2-8' ground rods spaced 6' apart and with a continuous loop of #4 copper running between them...starting and ending in the service panel. Guess what I found...1 clamp was disconnected and the copper wire was about 4" away...the other rods' clamp was very loose and the connection between copper and rod totally corroded (wire was solid but very oxidized). This problem appaears to have existed for a considerable amount of time...probably several years! I showed the owner before disturbing anything and proceeded to set things right with cleaned connections and wire, 2 new tear drop clamps and lots of de-ox. I learned a valuable lesson here...I will now examine the 'entire' home electrical system before installation....starting with the main grounding system. Not just looking for the "bad ju-ju" 3-wire shared neutral circuits and evaluating which circuits to back up and which to leave on grid. Kurt...no offense to your observation regarding my not paying enough attention to the loads in this system...I agree! This was a major concern here....I became painfully aware early on of this customers' unwillingness to pay attention to my advice regarding efficient appliances, load management and conservation! This was and is a tough customer. She'll appear to understand, to agree with my advice and then do it her way. I'll bet this sounds all too familiar to most of you! BTW...microwave turned out to be 25 years old (!), TV over 18, fridge turns out to AOK. I did find a melted sure arrestor (the $5 kind) which failed due to the fish tank dripping into it....sheeesh! I'm not sure where my dealer/installer job leaves off and my babysitter status begins. OK...rant over. All is well for now. I have to bone up on oscilloscope operation and scope the SW4024 output to check for FET or other damage to the waveform...all else appears to be working perfectly according to the Fluke (yes, true rms). Hey...anyone have an old manual laying around for a Hitachi V-212 scope?? Thanks again folks! (a very humble) Roy Butler Four Winds RE www.four-winds-energy.com - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From windy at dankoffsolar.com Thu Aug 3 19:01:47 2000 From: windy at dankoffsolar.com (Windy Dankoff, Dankoff Solar) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 16:01:47 -0700 Subject: SW-4024 blowing well pumps [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1738875297-212058698-965343707@topica.com> Gentlemen, We have a dealer whose customer has blown 3 well pump motors. He has an SW-4024 properly installed. Pump is 1 HP 230V run thru a T-240. He has an Onan generator backup on propane. No other appliances have blown, though he has relatively few. I suppose it could be that blown FET problem that you've been discussing. The dealer doesn't have an RMS voltmeter (yet) but he will now get one. Do you guys think that the known FET problem will be indicated by a high RMS volt (ie. 140V) reading with some consistancy? Or only under certain conditions? Any specific test suggestions? I'll find out later whether his generator ever ran out of gas. Has this problem ever been traced to lightning/static? -- likely from DC or AC end? Thanks, Windy Dankoff - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Thu Aug 3 19:28:53 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 16:28:53 -0700 Subject: SW-4024 blowing well pumps [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1738875297-212058698-965343707@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1090090720-951758591-965345333@topica.com> Since a 1/2 horse is close on a 2500 watt, it is possible that a particular 1 horse pump will be at the threshold of surge for the SW4024. Especially with added losses in the transformer step-up. If the inverter is marginally able to start this pump it may run on the start winding too long. Start windings are only made for intermittent duty, and usually will pop an internal breaker if held on past a few seconds but could cause the burn-out problem. Just to be sure this is not happening, you might watch the pump on a clamp on ammeter to see that when it starts the start surge does indeed switch out after the rpm picks up. Try this at both high and low battery voltages, and with other appliances on simultaneously that could rob enough reserve surge power to prevent the pump getting out of start winding. I am aware that larger than 1 horse pumps have been run fine on 4024 inverters. But there are several things that could put this over the line. One is differences in starting methods and surge characteristics, for instance be particularly suspicious of it if the pump is one without an external start capacitor and switching box. The transformer is another and additional simultaneous loads are another. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems ----- Original Message ----- From: Windy Dankoff, Dankoff Solar To: Cc: Adi Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2000 4:01 PM Subject: SW-4024 blowing well pumps [RE-wrenches] > Gentlemen, > > We have a dealer whose customer has blown 3 well pump motors. > > He has an SW-4024 properly installed. Pump is 1 HP 230V run thru a > T-240. He has an Onan generator backup on propane. > > No other appliances have blown, though he has relatively few. > > I suppose it could be that blown FET problem that you've been > discussing. The dealer doesn't have an RMS voltmeter (yet) but he > will now get one. Do you guys think that the known FET problem will > be indicated by a high RMS volt (ie. 140V) reading with some > consistancy? Or only under certain conditions? Any specific test > suggestions? > > I'll find out later whether his generator ever ran out of gas. > > Has this problem ever been traced to lightning/static? -- likely > from DC or AC end? > > Thanks, > > Windy Dankoff > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > > > The archive of previous messages: > > To unsubscribe: > > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > > For info contact list moderator: > > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ezra at lasqueti.net Thu Aug 3 20:04:53 2000 From: ezra at lasqueti.net (Ezra Auerbach, Trace Engineering) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 17:04:53 -0700 Subject: SW-4024 blowing well pumps [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1738875297-212058698-965343707@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1090090720-951758591-965345333@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.527858076-212058698-965347493@topica.com> Hi All, I think Steve is on the right track with regards to this pump. Another variable which could affect pump performance, and thus it's ability to get off the start winding is what kind of pressure the pump is starting against. A heavy column of water or a bunch of pressure stored in the tank will make a pump work harder. I had to add a capacitor to my pump because my old U series would start it when there was no pressure in my tank, but not against 20 psi on the second start up. As soon as the capacitor went in the pump started every time. Ezra Auerbach "Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar" wrote: > Since a 1/2 horse is close on a 2500 watt, it is possible that a particular > 1 horse pump will be at the threshold of surge for the SW4024. Especially > with added losses in the transformer step-up. If the inverter is marginally > able to start this pump it may run on the start winding too long. Start > windings are only made for intermittent duty, and usually will pop an > internal breaker if held on past a few seconds but could > cause the burn-out problem. Just to be sure this is not happening, you might > watch the > pump on a clamp on ammeter to see that when it starts the start surge does > indeed switch out after the rpm picks up. Try this at both high and low > battery voltages, and with other appliances on simultaneously that could rob > enough reserve surge power to prevent the pump getting out of start winding. > > I am aware that larger than 1 horse pumps have been run fine on 4024 > inverters. But there are several things that could put this over the line. > One is differences in starting methods and surge characteristics, for > instance be particularly suspicious of it if the pump is one without an > external start capacitor and switching box. The transformer is another and > additional simultaneous loads are another. > > Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com > Backwoods Solar Electric Systems > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Windy Dankoff, Dankoff Solar > To: > Cc: Adi > Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2000 4:01 PM > Subject: SW-4024 blowing well pumps [RE-wrenches] > > > Gentlemen, > > > > We have a dealer whose customer has blown 3 well pump motors. > > > > He has an SW-4024 properly installed. Pump is 1 HP 230V run thru a > > T-240. He has an Onan generator backup on propane. > > > > No other appliances have blown, though he has relatively few. > > > > I suppose it could be that blown FET problem that you've been > > discussing. The dealer doesn't have an RMS voltmeter (yet) but he > > will now get one. Do you guys think that the known FET problem will > > be indicated by a high RMS volt (ie. 140V) reading with some > > consistancy? Or only under certain conditions? Any specific test > > suggestions? > > > > I'll find out later whether his generator ever ran out of gas. > > > > Has this problem ever been traced to lightning/static? -- likely > > from DC or AC end? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Windy Dankoff > > > > - - - - - - - > > To send a message: > > > > > > The archive of previous messages: > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > > > > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > > > > > For info contact list moderator: > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > > > The archive of previous messages: > > To unsubscribe: > > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > > For info contact list moderator: > > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Thu Aug 3 21:39:28 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 18:39:28 -0700 Subject: SW-4024 blowing well pumps [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1411267142-951758591-965353168@topica.com> Well pumps motors are really hard to blow. Low voltage during starting surges aren't very good for motors and that might be what's getting this one. Undersized battery cables and length would be one thing to check. They can really limit the surge ability of an inverter if they are too small. Lightening might be getting them as well. Like Ezra said have him put a start capacitor on it. I have never been a fan of the T240. Does anyone know what happens to it's voltage as is surges past its rated 3500 watts. The rest of this message is just fluff so you can quit reading now if you want to. One horse ~ 6.4 amps (746 watts/117 volts). I have measured the peak on many 1 1/2 hp well pumps and have never seen it go past 14 amps per phase (that's with capacitor start). I like the well pumps with the capacitor start and for what it's worth I haven't seen one without it for years. Of course, I don't know your dealer and it's not your fault but it's pretty much rule #1 that someone who is installing inverters has a True RMS meter. I always wring out my systems very hard while I am on site. I carry at least 2000 watts worth of quartz lights and another 3600 watts worth of those little space heaters. Some customers almost faint when they see me plugging all this in! They really get nervous when after I get it all plugged in then tell them to turn all the water taps on. I take a system to its max rated amps with my "inverter testing loads" then I start turning things on in the house. It's pretty neat to have a dual 4048 running at a little over 30 amps on each inverter then turn the pump on and watch the inverters run it with no problem. I feel its important that a customer see what their system can do. Just the other day I was doing some service work for a guy who had never run his 4024 hard enough to heat the cooling fans turn on. He didn't know what they were. Travis Creswell ---------- >From: "Windy Dankoff, Dankoff Solar" >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Subject: SW-4024 blowing well pumps [RE-wrenches] >Date: Thu, Aug 3, 2000, 6:01 PM > >Gentlemen, > >We have a dealer whose customer has blown 3 well pump motors. > >He has an SW-4024 properly installed. Pump is 1 HP 230V run thru a >T-240. He has an Onan generator backup on propane. > >No other appliances have blown, though he has relatively few. > >I suppose it could be that blown FET problem that you've been >discussing. The dealer doesn't have an RMS voltmeter (yet) but he >will now get one. Do you guys think that the known FET problem will >be indicated by a high RMS volt (ie. 140V) reading with some >consistancy? Or only under certain conditions? Any specific test >suggestions? > >I'll find out later whether his generator ever ran out of gas. > >Has this problem ever been traced to lightning/static? -- likely >from DC or AC end? > >Thanks, > >Windy Dankoff > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > > >The archive of previous messages: > >To unsubscribe: > > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > >For info contact list moderator: > >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From jackwest at alaska.net Fri Aug 4 04:46:15 2000 From: jackwest at alaska.net (Jack West, Talkeetna AE) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 01:46:15 -0700 Subject: pump horsepower [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1411267142-951758591-965353168@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1404749168-212058698-965378775@topica.com> > Travis, The formula for amperage (single phase AC) as found in Ugly's Electrical Reference is: Amps = HP X 746 / (Voltage X %EFF X Power Factor) 1/2 HP submersible pumps I have installed draw about 9.6 amps (117VAC). I have seen the start windings draw as much as 25 amps. Jack West Talkeetna AE > > One horse ~ 6.4 amps (746 watts/117 volts). I have measured the peak on > many 1 1/2 hp well pumps and have never seen it go past 14 amps per phase > (that's with capacitor start). I like the well pumps with the capacitor > start and for what it's worth I haven't seen one without it for years. > - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From jackwest at alaska.net Fri Aug 4 04:54:24 2000 From: jackwest at alaska.net (Jack West, Talkeetna AE) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 01:54:24 -0700 Subject: Diesel generator and AutoStart [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.631241965-212058698-965379264@topica.com> Does anyone have experience using an SW inverter to Autostart a Northern Lights NL643 diesel generator? I want the inverter and/or manual panel to control the generator but cannot get both to work at the same time. These use a start/stop button and a bypass button to start the generator. The bypass also operates the glowplugs. Schematics available on request. Thanks for your help Jack West Talkeetna AE - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Fri Aug 4 08:21:19 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 05:21:19 -0700 Subject: pump horsepower [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2061972413-212058698-965391679@topica.com> Thanks Jack. I've know that since about 10th grade. ~ means approximately as I indicated in my message Thanks for keeping me honest. The pump thing always has been a little confusing. I saw a 1/2 hp surface jet pump surge to 36 amps and run at 5 amps recently. It was one of those that can be field selected 120 or 240. Travis Creswell - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From wkennedy at jademountain.com Fri Aug 4 14:11:14 2000 From: wkennedy at jademountain.com (Wes Kennedy, Jade Mountain) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 11:11:14 -0700 Subject: Installers in Palm Desert CA wanted [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.983795786-212058698-965331798@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.983795786-212058698-965331798@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.881514441-212058698-965412674@topica.com> Howdy, I have a 12kw pv system going in there. Anyone interested in plugging the thing in? Contact me off list. Thanks! Wes Wes Kennedy Evolutionary Technologist "Your philosophy is not what you believe, it's how you live!" -j rubin - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From freepower at freepower.co.nz Sun Aug 6 05:17:57 2000 From: freepower at freepower.co.nz (Carl Emerson) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2000 02:17:57 -0700 Subject: Leads in USA [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.616937388-212058698-965553477@topica.com> Hi there from New Zealand. Reasonably often I get leads from potential clients in USA who think I am close at hand. Being rather a long way from the US I need to pass these leads on... Here is an example: ======================= Subject: solar panels Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 17:40:10 -0400 From: JMM Organization: CE To: "'FREEPOWER at xtra.co.nz'" My husband and I would like to install solar panels for our home. Please send us more information on your products and especially, services. Thank you. Yung Me Suh Morris 1907 Rose Lane Pleasant Hill, CA 94523 USA =============================== What is the best way to handle this issue ?? I appreciate all the dialogue by the way and will launch into a few questions myself soon... Cheers, Carl Emerson Manager FREEPOWER LTD. "Harnessing Natural Energy" AUCKLAND 356 East Coast Road, Mairangi Bay, P.O. Box 68-247, AUCKLAND, New Zealand. Voice +64 9 478-0404 Mobile 021-633999 Cellfax 021-2919399 Fax +64 9 478-0405 Email emerson at freepower.co.nz Full support of Power Systems utilizing Solar, Wind and Water Energy including 'Grid Embedded' generation. System Design and Diagnosis, Supply of Equipment, Site Assessment, Solar water pumping to 600 Ft down without batteries. Consultants for Sunpower Co. NZ Distributor for Canon/Unisolar Solar Panels and Photovoltaic Roofing. NZ Electronic rep. SOMA Wind generators. NZ Distriibutor Chromagen Solar Hot Water Systems The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cvsolar at aol.com Mon Aug 7 12:26:19 2000 From: cvsolar at aol.com (John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 09:26:19 -0700 Subject: 12vdc motion sensing lights [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.231459670-951758591-965665579@topica.com> Does anyone have a good source for 12vdc motion sensing outdoor floodlights? I have had quite a few requests lately. Also on the same vein, how about compact fluorescent floodlight bulbs that will fit in outdoor floodlight sockets (needs long skinny neck. I have one (13watt) that I bought years ago and have no idea where I got it. John Blittersdorf Central Vernont Solar and WInd - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From toddcory at jps.net Mon Aug 7 12:49:24 2000 From: toddcory at jps.net (Todd Cory, Bald Mt. Solar) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 09:49:24 -0700 Subject: 12vdc motion sensing lights [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.231459670-951758591-965665579@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.799500764-951758591-965666964@topica.com> Photocomm, AKA Golden Genesis, AKA Kyocera Solar sells an excellent 12 VDC motion detector. Part # 34600 $59.00 Call Larry @ 800-544-6466 #7962 for details. Hope this helps, Todd Cory - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ellison at gisco.net Mon Aug 7 13:02:15 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison, Alternative Energy Systems) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 10:02:15 -0700 Subject: 12vdc motion sensing lights [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.231459670-951758591-965665579@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1055710635-951758591-965667735@topica.com> John, I believe these folks make DC motion sensors, I have never used them but it might be of some help. www.rabweb.com Later, Bob Ellison -----Original Message----- From: John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind [mailto:cvsolar at aol.com] Sent: Monday, August 07, 2000 12:26 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: 12vdc motion sensing lights [RE-wrenches] Does anyone have a good source for 12vdc motion sensing outdoor floodlights? I have had quite a few requests lately. Also on the same vein, how about compact fluorescent floodlight bulbs that will fit in outdoor floodlight sockets (needs long skinny neck. I have one (13watt) that I bought years ago and have no idea where I got it. John Blittersdorf Central Vernont Solar and WInd - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From global at sover.net Mon Aug 7 13:16:42 2000 From: global at sover.net (Jeffrey Wolfe, Global Resources) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 10:16:42 -0700 Subject: 12vdc motion sensing lights [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.530049316-212058698-965668602@topica.com> John: We sell a TCP bulb that is waterproof (made for wet locations). What has worked for us in some fixtures is to use a socket extender ($3 device that brings the socket forward about 1" to 1 1/2"), and then screw the bulb into that. We can add a reflector for better lighting. Comes in 11, 15, 18, 23 and 26 Watts. I have not found anything else that comes closer to an exact replacement for those energy hog outdoor floods. If you're interested, contact me off-list. Jeff Jeffery D. Wolfe, P.E. Global Resource Options, LLP A Woman-Owned Vermont Limited Liability Partnership 4 Kibling Hill Road P.O. Box 51 Strafford, VT 05072 802/765-4632 802/765-9983 (Fax) global at sover.net www.globalresourceoptions.com ---------- From: John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind[SMTP:cvsolar at aol.com] Reply To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Sent: Monday, August 07, 2000 12:26 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: 12vdc motion sensing lights [RE-wrenches] Does anyone have a good source for 12vdc motion sensing outdoor floodlights? I have had quite a few requests lately. Also on the same vein, how about compact fluorescent floodlight bulbs that will fit in outdoor floodlight sockets (needs long skinny neck. I have one (13watt) that I bought years ago and have no idea where I got it. John Blittersdorf Central Vernont Solar and WInd - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solarjon at netshel.net Mon Aug 7 13:55:30 2000 From: solarjon at netshel.net (Jonathan Hill) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 10:55:30 -0700 Subject: 12vdc motion sensing lights [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.231459670-951758591-965665579@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.231459670-951758591-965665579@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1099297370-212058698-965670930@topica.com> >John- Kyocera (formerly Golden Genesis) sells a 12 volt motion detector that can be connected to any light fixture. I've never seen a all-in-one unit though. Jon Hill >Does anyone have a good source for 12vdc motion sensing outdoor floodlights? >I have had quite a few requests lately. Also on the same vein, how about >compact fluorescent floodlight bulbs that will fit in outdoor floodlight >sockets (needs long skinny neck. I have one (13watt) that I bought years ago >and have no idea where I got it. > >John Blittersdorf >Central Vernont Solar and WInd > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > > >The archive of previous messages: > >To unsubscribe: > > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > >For info contact list moderator: > >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics ----------------- Sierra Solar Systems 109-N Argall Way Nevada City, CA 95959 tech info and foreign orders: (530) 265-8441 order line: (800) 51-SOLAR (US only) FAX: (530) 265-6151 e-mail: world wide web: Because of the high volume of e-mail to which I respond, please leave _all_ of the previous message (unless it's unbearable) in your reply so I can better remember your original message. - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Mon Aug 7 14:34:13 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 11:34:13 -0700 Subject: Conserve SE215 [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1473423636-951758591-965673253@topica.com> I have been measuring my Conserve SE215 chest freezer and I am not finding it to come very close to it's claimed .54 kWh per day @ 77f. I am using Brand Power meter and measuring at least .81 kWh @ 75f - 85f per day on just about the lowest setting. Any one else have this model and any kWh numbers. I'm not surprised to find this higher usage but I was curious if mine was a higher than others and if that indicated a malfunctioning unit. Thanks Travis Creswell Ozark Solar - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Mon Aug 7 16:35:37 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 13:35:37 -0700 Subject: 48 Volt Solar Boost 50 [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.197839090-212058698-965680537@topica.com> Per Steve Willey's suggestion I checked with RV power products about a 48 volt MPPT model. They are planning to have it out by late September and it will be a Solar Boost 3048. 30 amps max output which is going to limit the array to 24 amps. It's price and appearance will be similar to the Solar Boost 50. On a separate note: Why isn't a charge controller made that allows you to select whatever input voltage and output voltage you desire? Not just 12,24 or 48. I mean in multiples of 12 volts. This really doesn't apply to output (batteries) as much as to input. I know, I know it would complex and expensive but... Imagine being able to add solar panels one at a time on a 48 volt system as the (customers) budget allows. Wouldn't be nice to put a 1200 watt array 200 feet away from the 12 volt battery on #6 copper. All of the modules could be ran in series each one adding to the voltage and reducing voltage drop. Travis Creswell Ozark Solar - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ________________________________________________________________________ Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register From ellison at gisco.net Mon Aug 7 16:45:50 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison, Alternative Energy Systems) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 13:45:50 -0700 Subject: 48 Volt Solar Boost 50 [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.197839090-212058698-965680537@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.719002710-212058698-965681150@topica.com> That downgrade from 50 amp to 30 amp rating will change the entire equation on its usefulness at one site that I am looking at, too bad. Bob Ellison -----Original Message----- From: Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar [mailto:ozsolar at ipa.net] Sent: Monday, August 07, 2000 4:36 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: 48 Volt Solar Boost 50 [RE-wrenches] Per Steve Willey's suggestion I checked with RV power products about a 48 volt MPPT model. They are planning to have it out by late September and it will be a Solar Boost 3048. 30 amps max output which is going to limit the array to 24 amps. It's price and appearance will be similar to the Solar Boost 50. On a separate note: Why isn't a charge controller made that allows you to select whatever input voltage and output voltage you desire? Not just 12,24 or 48. I mean in multiples of 12 volts. This really doesn't apply to output (batteries) as much as to input. I know, I know it would complex and expensive but... Imagine being able to add solar panels one at a time on a 48 volt system as the (customers) budget allows. Wouldn't be nice to put a 1200 watt array 200 feet away from the 12 volt battery on #6 copper. All of the modules could be ran in series each one adding to the voltage and reducing voltage drop. Travis Creswell Ozark Solar - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ________________________________________________________________________ Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ________________________________________________________________________ Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register From toddcory at jps.net Mon Aug 7 17:08:00 2000 From: toddcory at jps.net (Todd Cory, Bald Mt. Solar) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 14:08:00 -0700 Subject: 48 Volt Solar Boost 50 [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.719002710-212058698-965681150@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1456679801-951758591-965682480@topica.com> 30 amps @ 48 volts is 1440 watts... this more power processing capability than the MPPT 50 which is only 1200 watts max. TC "Bob Ellison, Alternative Energy Systems" wrote: > That downgrade from 50 amp to 30 amp rating will change the entire equation > on its usefulness at one site that I am looking at, too bad. > > Bob Ellison > - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ________________________________________________________________________ Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register From ellison at gisco.net Mon Aug 7 17:11:28 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison, Alternative Energy Systems) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 14:11:28 -0700 Subject: 48 Volt Solar Boost 50 [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1456679801-951758591-965682480@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1419067915-212058698-965682688@topica.com> Todd, Your correct, I blew it. Type first think later, works every time...... I stand humbly corrected, Bob -----Original Message----- From: Todd Cory, Bald Mt. Solar [mailto:toddcory at jps.net] Sent: Monday, August 07, 2000 5:08 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Re: 48 Volt Solar Boost 50 [RE-wrenches] 30 amps @ 48 volts is 1440 watts... this more power processing capability than the MPPT 50 which is only 1200 watts max. TC "Bob Ellison, Alternative Energy Systems" wrote: > That downgrade from 50 amp to 30 amp rating will change the entire equation > on its usefulness at one site that I am looking at, too bad. > > Bob Ellison > - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ________________________________________________________________________ Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ________________________________________________________________________ Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register From freepower at freepower.co.nz Mon Aug 7 17:15:01 2000 From: freepower at freepower.co.nz (Carl Emerson) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 14:15:01 -0700 Subject: MPPT from FW&R [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.719002710-212058698-965681150@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.433372336-212058698-965682901@topica.com> Hullo Folks... Any news on the development of the PA304 from FW&R. I understand tests last year pointed to unresolved efficiency problems. Has anyone field experience with a recent unit ?? -- Regards, Carl Emerson Manager FREEPOWER LTD. "Harnessing Natural Energy" AUCKLAND 356 East Coast Road, Mairangi Bay, P.O. Box 68-247, AUCKLAND, New Zealand. Voice +64 9 478-0404 Mobile 021-633999 Cellfax 021-2919399 Fax +64 9 478-0405 Email emerson at freepower.co.nz - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ________________________________________________________________________ Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register From steve at backwoodssolar.com Mon Aug 7 17:36:08 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 14:36:08 -0700 Subject: Conserve SE215 [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1473423636-951758591-965673253@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1366764805-212058698-965684168@topica.com> I just this week measured our SE215 Conserv chest freezer and it met 500 watt hours per 24 hours at 75 degree room. That may depend on the inside temp. They often come from the factory with a knob range of negative 20 to negative 5 degrees. Customers complain of rock hard ice cream as well as increased power use. we devised an instruction sheet and a loaner tool that we send to many customers who then use it to shift the control range to about negative 5 to positive 8 degrees F whereupon at setting Positive 5 or 6 all is restored to proper functioning. Unfortunately it is a small task that some are intimidated by, but it really helps. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems A catalog business on a mountain 2 miles from utility lines, powered entirely by our catalog products. IF UTILITY POWER IS 1/2 MILE OR MORE FROM YOUR SITE, get our free 160 page solar-electric Planning Guide/Catalog. (Your postal address required - Our list is never given or sold). Phone(208)263-4290 Fax (208) 265-4788 in Idaho, USA ----- Original Message ----- From: Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar To: RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, August 07, 2000 11:34 AM Subject: Conserve SE215 [RE-wrenches] > I have been measuring my Conserve SE215 chest freezer and I am not finding > it to come very close to it's claimed .54 kWh per day @ 77f. I am using > Brand Power meter and measuring at least .81 kWh @ 75f - 85f per day on just > about the lowest setting. > > Any one else have this model and any kWh numbers. I'm not surprised to > find this higher usage but I was curious if mine was a higher than others > and if that indicated a malfunctioning unit. > > Thanks > Travis Creswell > Ozark Solar > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > > > The archive of previous messages: > > To unsubscribe: > > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > > For info contact list moderator: > > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ________________________________________________________________________ Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register From solarjon at netshel.net Mon Aug 7 17:40:35 2000 From: solarjon at netshel.net (Jonathan Hill) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 14:40:35 -0700 Subject: MPPT from FW&R [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.433372336-212058698-965682901@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.719002710-212058698-965681150@topica.com> <0.1300002502.433372336-212058698-965682901@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.154151068-951758591-965684435@topica.com> We tested one at our shop recently and found absolutely NO increase in daily output. Too bad! Jon HIll >Hullo Folks... > >Any news on the development of the PA304 from FW&R. > >I understand tests last year pointed to unresolved efficiency problems. > >Has anyone field experience with a recent unit ?? >-- >Regards, > > >Carl Emerson >Manager >FREEPOWER LTD. "Harnessing Natural Energy" > >AUCKLAND >356 East Coast Road, Mairangi Bay, P.O. Box 68-247, AUCKLAND, New >Zealand. >Voice +64 9 478-0404 Mobile 021-633999 Cellfax 021-2919399 >Fax +64 9 478-0405 Email emerson at freepower.co.nz > > > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > > >The archive of previous messages: > >To unsubscribe: > > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > >For info contact list moderator: > >________________________________________________________________________ >Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register ----------------- Sierra Solar Systems 109-N Argall Way Nevada City, CA 95959 tech info and foreign orders: (530) 265-8441 order line: (800) 51-SOLAR (US only) FAX: (530) 265-6151 e-mail: world wide web: Because of the high volume of e-mail to which I respond, please leave _all_ of the previous message (unless it's unbearable) in your reply so I can better remember your original message. - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ________________________________________________________________________ Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register From steve at backwoodssolar.com Mon Aug 7 17:41:49 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 14:41:49 -0700 Subject: 12vdc motion sensing lights [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.231459670-951758591-965665579@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.303934371-951758591-965684509@topica.com> 12 volt motion sensors available from RAB, or small quantities through us at 15% off. These are good units with test LED always operating, internal timer, time and sensitivity adjustment. Very stable operation after their last upgrade a year ago. 12 volt only, not 24, and good for about 5 amps. External relay addition would allow switching on AC floodlights on inverter to start up an idle inverter. Can even use higher wattages if time span is kept short. Factory RAB is at 800m938-1010. RAB model 2000LV. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems A catalog business on a mountain 2 miles from utility lines, powered entirely by our catalog products. IF UTILITY POWER IS 1/2 MILE OR MORE FROM YOUR SITE, get our free 160 page solar-electric Planning Guide/Catalog. (Your postal address required - Our list is never given or sold). Phone(208)263-4290 Fax (208) 265-4788 in Idaho, USA ----- Original Message ----- From: John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind To: Sent: Monday, August 07, 2000 9:26 AM Subject: 12vdc motion sensing lights [RE-wrenches] > Does anyone have a good source for 12vdc motion sensing outdoor floodlights? > I have had quite a few requests lately. Also on the same vein, how about > compact fluorescent floodlight bulbs that will fit in outdoor floodlight > sockets (needs long skinny neck. I have one (13watt) that I bought years ago > and have no idea where I got it. > > John Blittersdorf > Central Vernont Solar and WInd > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > > > The archive of previous messages: > > To unsubscribe: > > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > > For info contact list moderator: > > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ________________________________________________________________________ Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register From global at sover.net Mon Aug 7 17:43:48 2000 From: global at sover.net (Jeffrey Wolfe, Global Resources) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 14:43:48 -0700 Subject: MPPT from FW&R [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.566275379-212058698-965684628@topica.com> I've been beating one up in my basement. Nothing great to report yet. No holy grail in sight. Jeff Jeffery D. Wolfe, P.E. Global Resource Options, LLP A Woman-Owned Vermont Limited Liability Partnership 4 Kibling Hill Road P.O. Box 51 Strafford, VT 05072 802/765-4632 802/765-9983 (Fax) global at sover.net www.globalresourceoptions.com ---------- From: Carl Emerson[SMTP:freepower at freepower.co.nz] Reply To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Sent: Monday, August 07, 2000 5:15 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Re: MPPT from FW&R [RE-wrenches] Hullo Folks... Any news on the development of the PA304 from FW&R. I understand tests last year pointed to unresolved efficiency problems. Has anyone field experience with a recent unit ?? -- Regards, Carl Emerson Manager FREEPOWER LTD. "Harnessing Natural Energy" AUCKLAND 356 East Coast Road, Mairangi Bay, P.O. Box 68-247, AUCKLAND, New Zealand. Voice +64 9 478-0404 Mobile 021-633999 Cellfax 021-2919399 Fax +64 9 478-0405 Email emerson at freepower.co.nz - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ________________________________________________________________________ Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ________________________________________________________________________ Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register From solenergy at optinet.hn Mon Aug 7 18:09:32 2000 From: solenergy at optinet.hn (Ned van Steenwyk, Soluciones Energeticas) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 15:09:32 -0700 Subject: Conserve SE215 [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1473423636-951758591-965673253@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.579518877-212058698-965686172@topica.com> Travis, We have a client with a Conserve chest freezer that we purchased from Photocomm/Golden Genesis. It is using over 1000 watts a day, measured by a Watts-Up meter. We advised Kyocera on the problem and customer service is supposed to get back to us, but nothing so far. Ned van Steenwyk Soluciones Energeticas Honduras At 11:34 AM 7/08/2000 -0700, you wrote: >I have been measuring my Conserve SE215 chest freezer and I am not finding >it to come very close to it's claimed .54 kWh per day @ 77f. I am using >Brand Power meter and measuring at least .81 kWh @ 75f - 85f per day on just >about the lowest setting. > >Any one else have this model and any kWh numbers. I'm not surprised to >find this higher usage but I was curious if mine was a higher than others >and if that indicated a malfunctioning unit. > >Thanks >Travis Creswell >Ozark Solar > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > > >The archive of previous messages: > >To unsubscribe: > > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > >For info contact list moderator: > >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ________________________________________________________________________ Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register From ozsolar at ipa.net Mon Aug 7 18:11:40 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 15:11:40 -0700 Subject: 48 Volt Solar Boost 50 [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1944196738-951758591-965686300@topica.com> According to Rick at RV Power Products you should de rate input by 125% into to either one. So the 50 refers to output amps. This has to do with with NEC required de rate. That turns the Solar Boost 50 into 40 amps (input) and the 3048 into 24 amps (input). In the Solar Boost 50 manual (pg. 9) it mentions 40 amps of short circuit current but that is the only place I could find where it tells you anything different that 50 amps of input current. The last I heard the FW & R stuff still had some problems. Travis Creswell Ozark Solar ---------- >From: "Todd Cory, Bald Mt. Solar" >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Subject: Re: 48 Volt Solar Boost 50 [RE-wrenches] >Date: Mon, Aug 7, 2000, 4:08 PM > >30 amps @ 48 volts is 1440 watts... this more power processing capability than >the MPPT 50 which is only 1200 watts max. > >TC - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ________________________________________________________________________ Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register From allan at positivenergy.com Mon Aug 7 19:05:41 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 16:05:41 -0700 Subject: 48 Volt Solar Boost 50 [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1853925400-951758591-965689541@topica.com> Wrenches, We have sold 8 RVPP SB2000s and 8 RV50s, and installed most of these. We are very pleased so far. We have seen two production problems: 1) The MPPT adjustment pot on one SB50 was defective at installation. We completed the installation, and Rick sent us a new control board, which he claimed was an easy replacement within the enclosure. It was. 2) One SB2000 now in the field has one bar of the LCD display nonfunctional, so hard to determine 12.6V from 12.8. We'll swap with customer under warranty when he brings it in. So we are very happy with performance, considering it's a new product. No field failures yet. The sleeper benefits of this unit are (1) the ease of initiating and terminating equalizing; and (2) the shunt sense function that compensates during acceptance stage for varying DC loads. Real sweet. Our biggest headache is difficult initial setup. It takes a separate 12V battery temp'ed in to set up the MPPT boost, as batteries must be full or nearly so to set finish voltage from a meter. We use an old 12V 35A gel cell for this. Of course, setting MPPT boost is best on a low battery...So sometimes it's a guess. Test points a la C40 would be nice. We have asked Rick for: UL listing. A small (20-25A) 24V unit; this has been promised. A 48V unit; see recent messages. Test setpoints. Enclosure KOs that match up to a DC175 Trace box with offset nipples, a la C40. And a Heinemann DC input breaker, a la Pulse TC60 in the enclosure. If you agree with any of these, add your voice! Enough already! Allan @ Positive Energy -----Original Message----- From: Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar To: RE-wrenches at topica.com ; RE-wrenches at topica.com Date: Monday, August 07, 2000 4:16 PM Subject: Re: 48 Volt Solar Boost 50 [RE-wrenches] >According to Rick at RV Power Products you should de rate input by 125% into >to either one. So the 50 refers to output amps. This has to do with with >NEC required de rate. That turns the Solar Boost 50 into 40 amps (input) >and the 3048 into 24 amps (input). In the Solar Boost 50 manual (pg. 9) it >mentions 40 amps of short circuit current but that is the only place I could >find where it tells you anything different that 50 amps of input current. > >The last I heard the FW & R stuff still had some problems. > >Travis Creswell >Ozark Solar >---------- >>From: "Todd Cory, Bald Mt. Solar" >>To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >>Subject: Re: 48 Volt Solar Boost 50 [RE-wrenches] >>Date: Mon, Aug 7, 2000, 4:08 PM >> > >>30 amps @ 48 volts is 1440 watts... this more power processing capability than >>the MPPT 50 which is only 1200 watts max. >> >>TC > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > > >The archive of previous messages: > >To unsubscribe: > > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > >For info contact list moderator: > >________________________________________________________________________ >Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register > - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ________________________________________________________________________ Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register From allan at positivenergy.com Mon Aug 7 19:07:37 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 16:07:37 -0700 Subject: Conserve SE215 [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.549740492-951758591-965689657@topica.com> Remember, P-comm advertised the Vestfrost (now ConServ) as under 1 kW/day when it came out, and we all know that's bogus... -----Original Message----- From: Ned van Steenwyk, Soluciones Energeticas To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Date: Monday, August 07, 2000 4:14 PM Subject: Re: Conserve SE215 [RE-wrenches] > >Travis, > >We have a client with a Conserve chest freezer that we purchased from >Photocomm/Golden Genesis. It is using over 1000 watts a day, measured by a >Watts-Up meter. We advised Kyocera on the problem and customer service is >supposed to get back to us, but nothing so far. > >Ned van Steenwyk >Soluciones Energeticas >Honduras > >At 11:34 AM 7/08/2000 -0700, you wrote: >>I have been measuring my Conserve SE215 chest freezer and I am not finding >>it to come very close to it's claimed .54 kWh per day @ 77f. I am using >>Brand Power meter and measuring at least .81 kWh @ 75f - 85f per day on just >>about the lowest setting. >> >>Any one else have this model and any kWh numbers. I'm not surprised to >>find this higher usage but I was curious if mine was a higher than others >>and if that indicated a malfunctioning unit. >> >>Thanks >>Travis Creswell >>Ozark Solar >> >>- - - - - - - >>To send a message: >> >> >>The archive of previous messages: >> > >>To unsubscribe: >> >> >>To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: >> >> >>Hosted by Home Power magazine: >> >> >>For info contact list moderator: >> >>___________________________________________________________ >>T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >>Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics >> > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > > >The archive of previous messages: > >To unsubscribe: > > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > >For info contact list moderator: > >________________________________________________________________________ >Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register > - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ________________________________________________________________________ Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register From econnect at snowcrest.net Mon Aug 7 19:46:29 2000 From: econnect at snowcrest.net (Bob-O Schultze, Electron Connection) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 16:46:29 -0700 Subject: Conserve SE215 [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.579518877-212058698-965686172@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.579518877-212058698-965686172@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1351873729-212058698-965691989@topica.com> Howdy Ned, Several years ago, when Photocomm/Golden Genesis first started to carry the Vestfrost (now Conserve) freezers , I bought one for Kathleen. It drew about 1KW/H per day. I figured it was faulty and sent it back. They sent me a new one. Same thing. They then admitted that ALL of them were overspec and there was a MATH error when they converted from 230V to 115V. Un-huh. They SAID they would put out a flyer to all dealers and customers. Never happened, never will. I had great hope that Kyocera would clean out the, shall we say, less-than-honest folks in the PComm/GG/now Ky management. I'm still hoping. Until then, I do business with someone else. Bob-O > > >We have a client with a Conserve chest freezer that we purchased from >Photocomm/Golden Genesis. It is using over 1000 watts a day, measured by a >Watts-Up meter. We advised Kyocera on the problem and customer service is >supposed to get back to us, but nothing so far. > >Ned van Steenwyk >Soluciones Energeticas >Honduras > >At 11:34 AM 7/08/2000 -0700, you wrote: > >I have been measuring my Conserve SE215 chest freezer and I am not finding > >it to come very close to it's claimed .54 kWh per day @ 77f. I am using > >Brand Power meter and measuring at least .81 kWh @ 75f - 85f per day on just > >about the lowest setting. > > > >Any one else have this model and any kWh numbers. I'm not surprised to > >find this higher usage but I was curious if mine was a higher than others > >and if that indicated a malfunctioning unit. Bob-O Schultze, Electron Connection PO Box 203, Hornbrook, CA 96044 800.945.7587 fax 530-475-3401 www.electronconnection.com - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ________________________________________________________________________ Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register From jay at asis.com Mon Aug 7 21:23:30 2000 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 18:23:30 -0700 Subject: 12vdc motion sensing lights [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.231459670-951758591-965665579@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.509692608-212058698-965697810@topica.com> Hi John, You can get some 9v battery operated sensor units from APC( #53-538-020).( $27) They are pretty cool, they use a 9v battery to operate the sensor which then switches a socket. Works great with AC or DC, and doesn't keep inverters on as there is no load untill the motion sensor asks for light. AS to the outdoor light, they do make extensions or used to that might work although I don't know where to get them. Jay Peltz "John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind" wrote: > Does anyone have a good source for 12vdc motion sensing outdoor floodlights? > I have had quite a few requests lately. Also on the same vein, how about > compact fluorescent floodlight bulbs that will fit in outdoor floodlight > sockets (needs long skinny neck. I have one (13watt) that I bought years ago > and have no idea where I got it. > > John Blittersdorf > Central Vernont Solar and WInd > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > > > The archive of previous messages: > > To unsubscribe: > > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > > For info contact list moderator: > > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ________________________________________________________________________ Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register From jay at asis.com Mon Aug 7 21:23:42 2000 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 18:23:42 -0700 Subject: Conserve SE215 [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1473423636-951758591-965673253@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1057379503-212058698-965697822@topica.com> Hi Travis, Just what are you using to power this with? inverter ( and what type) or grid. Jay Peltz "Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar" wrote: > I have been measuring my Conserve SE215 chest freezer and I am not finding > it to come very close to it's claimed .54 kWh per day @ 77f. I am using > Brand Power meter and measuring at least .81 kWh @ 75f - 85f per day on just > about the lowest setting. > > Any one else have this model and any kWh numbers. I'm not surprised to > find this higher usage but I was curious if mine was a higher than others > and if that indicated a malfunctioning unit. > > Thanks > Travis Creswell > Ozark Solar > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > > > The archive of previous messages: > > To unsubscribe: > > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > > For info contact list moderator: > > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ________________________________________________________________________ Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register From jay at asis.com Mon Aug 7 21:25:37 2000 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 18:25:37 -0700 Subject: Conserve SE215 [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.549740492-951758591-965689657@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1395768089-212058698-965697937@topica.com> Yep thats true. What they did was to quote the specs of the refer model only, not with the freezer that they sell. Even when confronted with the data, they refused to change their numbers. We must be ever careful with some companies. jay allan wrote: > Remember, P-comm advertised the Vestfrost (now ConServ) as under 1 kW/day > when it came out, and we all know that's bogus... > -----Original Message----- > From: Ned van Steenwyk, Soluciones Energeticas > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Date: Monday, August 07, 2000 4:14 PM > Subject: Re: Conserve SE215 [RE-wrenches] > > > > >Travis, > > > >We have a client with a Conserve chest freezer that we purchased from > >Photocomm/Golden Genesis. It is using over 1000 watts a day, measured by a > >Watts-Up meter. We advised Kyocera on the problem and customer service is > >supposed to get back to us, but nothing so far. > > > >Ned van Steenwyk > >Soluciones Energeticas > >Honduras > > > >At 11:34 AM 7/08/2000 -0700, you wrote: > >>I have been measuring my Conserve SE215 chest freezer and I am not finding > >>it to come very close to it's claimed .54 kWh per day @ 77f. I am using > >>Brand Power meter and measuring at least .81 kWh @ 75f - 85f per day on > just > >>about the lowest setting. > >> > >>Any one else have this model and any kWh numbers. I'm not surprised to > >>find this higher usage but I was curious if mine was a higher than others > >>and if that indicated a malfunctioning unit. > >> > >>Thanks > >>Travis Creswell > >>Ozark Solar > >> > >>- - - - - - - > >>To send a message: > >> > >> > >>The archive of previous messages: > >> >> > >>To unsubscribe: > >> > >> > >>To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > >> > >> > >>Hosted by Home Power magazine: > >> > >> > >>For info contact list moderator: > >> > >>___________________________________________________________ > >>T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > >>Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > >> > > > >- - - - - - - > >To send a message: > > > > > >The archive of previous messages: > > > > >To unsubscribe: > > > > > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > > > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > > > > >For info contact list moderator: > > > >________________________________________________________________________ > >Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register > > > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > > > The archive of previous messages: > > To unsubscribe: > > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > > For info contact list moderator: > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ________________________________________________________________________ Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register From microhydro at dplus.net Mon Aug 7 22:05:04 2000 From: microhydro at dplus.net (Ron Macleod) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 19:05:04 -0700 Subject: 48 Volt Solar Boost 50 [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.197839090-212058698-965680537@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1687834184-212058698-965700304@topica.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cvsolar at aol.com Tue Aug 8 07:39:23 2000 From: cvsolar at aol.com (John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 04:39:23 -0700 Subject: Internally lit signs in cold weather [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.78061933-212058698-965734763@topica.com> Hi group, Has anyone had any luck converting a standard internally lit 2-sided sign with 48" fluorescent tubes to 12VDC but also will work in cold weather? I just got involved with a local electrician hired to get power to a new sign at a school. The wire would have to be buried under 2 paved driveways. Solar is the answer but we want to work with the brand new sign installed. It's a perfect demonstration project as the solar panel will be pleasingly visible on a heavily traveled highway. Any ideas? John Blittersdorf Central Vermont Solar and Wind - - - - - - - To send a message: The archive of previous messages: To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: Hosted by Home Power magazine: For info contact list moderator: ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Tue Aug 8 13:53:51 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 10:53:51 -0700 Subject: Internally lit signs in cold weather [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1891552090-212058698-965757231@topica.com> John, Westerfield has some 12 volt fixtures and they typically only sell through distributor/dealers and I'm one. I know what you need is a ballast and the sign company can supply the lamp holders. I'll Check with Westerfield and see if they have a 4' DC ballast and will sell them alone. Another option is the PL39 lamp. It's a two foot biax and bighter for the watts than a 4' lamps but still requires a ballast. I'll let you know when I hear from them. Also have you done the numbers on how many panels you are going to need? I have done a few signs and lost a lot more. The main reasons don't include the the price because it is cheaper than alternative but rather they want to run the sign all night long all year long which is pretty much impossible and expensive and when they see that the solar panels end up being as big as the sign they almost always pass and pay bigger money to get the grid to the sign. If they can accept a few hours after sunset of lighting then it's a heck of lot easier but I haven't found that to be the case. Let me know how is goes as I have always thought that sign lighting should be solar a lot more often than it is. Good Luck Travis Creswell Ozark Solar ---------- >From: "John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind" >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Subject: Internally lit signs in cold weather [RE-wrenches] >Date: Tue, Aug 8, 2000, 6:39 AM > >Hi group, > Has anyone had any luck converting a standard internally lit 2-sided sign >with 48" fluorescent tubes to 12VDC but also will work in cold weather? I >just got involved with a local electrician hired to get power to a new sign >at a school. The wire would have to be buried under 2 paved driveways. >Solar is the answer but we want to work with the brand new sign installed. >It's a perfect demonstration project as the solar panel will be pleasingly >visible on a heavily traveled highway. Any ideas? > >John Blittersdorf >Central Vermont Solar and Wind > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > > >The archive of previous messages: > >To unsubscribe: > > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > >For info contact list moderator: > >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ________________________________________________________________________ Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register From allan at positivenergy.com Tue Aug 8 14:06:50 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 11:06:50 -0700 Subject: E-meter rant [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1667179842-951758591-965758010@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 2143 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ozsolar at ipa.net Tue Aug 8 14:09:00 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 11:09:00 -0700 Subject: Internally lit signs in cold weather [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.419457419-212058698-965758140@topica.com> John, I forgot to mention what you probably already now is that cold might be a real problem. I'll be sure that they are at least 0 degree F starting ballasts. Most of the stuff I have seen has a real problems even below 50 degrees. Travis - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From allan at positivenergy.com Tue Aug 8 14:19:07 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 11:19:07 -0700 Subject: Internally lit signs in cold weather [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.793985139-951758591-965758747@topica.com> John, If they haven't already responded here, contact Bob or Ray at Energy Outfitters. They are the main distributors for Light-It Technologies (formerly S&H of Putney, VT). We have had very good results with their DC ballasts. Our design temps are not as low as yours, but I think theirs work to 0 F. Just an idea: we have put together one mailbox lighting package using white (the color of moonlight, actually) LEDs. The primary advantage is that the power consumption is so low that the whole system is kinda minitiarized. Whole system installed for <$1K. Client very pleased. We worked with Bill Hollibaugh of Holly Solar on that one. Hollysolar.com. Allan @ Positive Energy -----Original Message----- From: John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Date: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 5:44 AM Subject: Internally lit signs in cold weather [RE-wrenches] >Hi group, > Has anyone had any luck converting a standard internally lit 2-sided sign >with 48" fluorescent tubes to 12VDC but also will work in cold weather? I >just got involved with a local electrician hired to get power to a new sign >at a school. The wire would have to be buried under 2 paved driveways. >Solar is the answer but we want to work with the brand new sign installed. >It's a perfect demonstration project as the solar panel will be pleasingly >visible on a heavily traveled highway. Any ideas? > >John Blittersdorf >Central Vermont Solar and Wind > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > > >The archive of previous messages: > >To unsubscribe: > > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > >For info contact list moderator: > >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ________________________________________________________________________ Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register From bob at energyoutfitters.com Tue Aug 8 14:30:02 2000 From: bob at energyoutfitters.com (Bob Maynard, Energy Outfitters) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 11:30:02 -0700 Subject: Conserve SE215 [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1473423636-951758591-965673253@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1929002142-212058698-965759402@topica.com> Hi Travis, We've tested several of the Vestfrost/Conserv freezers and typically find 750-850 watt hour per day to be the norm. Biggest variable is not how often its opened, but rather how often and how much non-frozen foods are put in to freeze. Danby makes a 5.3 chest freezer that under similar usage uses 500-600 w/h per day. The reall advantage is its cost $250-$300. Regards, Bob Maynard Energy Outfitters 800-467-6527 "Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar" wrote: > I have been measuring my Conserve SE215 chest freezer and I am not finding > it to come very close to it's claimed .54 kWh per day @ 77f. I am using > Brand Power meter and measuring at least .81 kWh @ 75f - 85f per day on just > about the lowest setting. > > Any one else have this model and any kWh numbers. I'm not surprised to > find this higher usage but I was curious if mine was a higher than others > and if that indicated a malfunctioning unit. > > Thanks > Travis Creswell > Ozark Solar > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > > > The archive of previous messages: > > To unsubscribe: > > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > > For info contact list moderator: > > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ________________________________________________________________________ Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register From bob at energyoutfitters.com Tue Aug 8 16:20:18 2000 From: bob at energyoutfitters.com (Bob Maynard, Energy Outfitters) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 13:20:18 -0700 Subject: Internally lit signs in cold weather [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.78061933-212058698-965734763@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.882717333-951758591-965766018@topica.com> Hi John, We have been using and distributing LIT's electronic ballast for SE and DE compact flourescent. They are available in 12 or 24 V. They guarantee lighting of the bulbs down to 0 degrees F. In reality, we have several sites where they are working at -20 degrees F. In addition to ballasts, we stock their water tight outdoor flood lights. Give me a call if you have any questions. Regards, Bob Maynard Energy Outfitters 800-467-6527 "John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind" wrote: > Hi group, > Has anyone had any luck converting a standard internally lit 2-sided sign > with 48" fluorescent tubes to 12VDC but also will work in cold weather? I > just got involved with a local electrician hired to get power to a new sign > at a school. The wire would have to be buried under 2 paved driveways. > Solar is the answer but we want to work with the brand new sign installed. > It's a perfect demonstration project as the solar panel will be pleasingly > visible on a heavily traveled highway. Any ideas? > > John Blittersdorf > Central Vermont Solar and Wind > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > > > The archive of previous messages: > > To unsubscribe: > > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > > For info contact list moderator: > > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ________________________________________________________________________ Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register From microhydro at dplus.net Tue Aug 8 16:46:40 2000 From: microhydro at dplus.net (Ron Macleod) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 13:46:40 -0700 Subject: Aussie MPPT [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1891552090-212058698-965757231@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1735964645-212058698-965767600@topica.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarman4 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 8 17:16:00 2000 From: solarman4 at yahoo.com (Mark Downing) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 14:16:00 -0700 Subject: E-meter rant [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1032580322-212058698-965769360@topica.com> Agreed! The Trimetric is my favorite. I find it easier to install; no multiple fuse business. With the generous kit of goodies Backwoods provides, it's a piece of cake to install. And yes again, Ralph is super for support. Mark, Hurshtown Alternative Power --- allan wrote: > Tri-Mets have proven much more reliable, and I can > get Ralph himself on the phone when I have a > question or problem. It has become an easy choice > which meter to design into our systems. > > Allan Sindelar __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ezra at lasqueti.net Wed Aug 9 11:17:17 2000 From: ezra at lasqueti.net (Ezra Auerbach, Trace Engineering) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 08:17:17 -0700 Subject: Conserve SE215 [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.579518877-212058698-965686172@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.827308006-951758591-965834237@topica.com> I have a Conserve Referigerator/Freezer which also uses considerably more current than the unit is rated for (but then so did my Sunfrost when I measured it's energy usage).There are so many variables to getting the rated performance that I hazard that factory specs will almost always be unattainable. Clearly a couple of factors which will cause the unit to use more power would be: Is the freezer full? How often is it opened. Oh, I also want to say that I am generally very pleased with my Conserve, extra energy consumption and all. Ezra "Ned van Steenwyk, Soluciones Energeticas" wrote: > Travis, > > We have a client with a Conserve chest freezer that we purchased from > Photocomm/Golden Genesis. It is using over 1000 watts a day, measured by a > Watts-Up meter. We advised Kyocera on the problem and customer service is > supposed to get back to us, but nothing so far. > > Ned van Steenwyk > Soluciones Energeticas > Honduras > > At 11:34 AM 7/08/2000 -0700, you wrote: > >I have been measuring my Conserve SE215 chest freezer and I am not finding > >it to come very close to it's claimed .54 kWh per day @ 77f. I am using > >Brand Power meter and measuring at least .81 kWh @ 75f - 85f per day on just > >about the lowest setting. > > > >Any one else have this model and any kWh numbers. I'm not surprised to > >find this higher usage but I was curious if mine was a higher than others > >and if that indicated a malfunctioning unit. > > > >Thanks > >Travis Creswell > >Ozark Solar > > > >- - - - - - - > >To send a message: > > > > > >The archive of previous messages: > > > > >To unsubscribe: > > > > > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > > > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > > > > >For info contact list moderator: > > > >___________________________________________________________ > >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > > > The archive of previous messages: > > To unsubscribe: > > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > > For info contact list moderator: > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ezra at lasqueti.net Wed Aug 9 11:17:19 2000 From: ezra at lasqueti.net (Ezra Auerbach, Trace Engineering) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 08:17:19 -0700 Subject: Internally lit signs in cold weather [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.793985139-951758591-965758747@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.376611552-212058698-965834239@topica.com> Soltek Solar in Victoria BC is also making a line of LED yard lights Ezra allan wrote: > John, > > If they haven't already responded here, contact Bob or Ray at Energy > Outfitters. They are the main distributors for Light-It Technologies > (formerly S&H of Putney, VT). We have had very good results with their DC > ballasts. Our design temps are not as low as yours, but I think theirs work > to 0 F. > > Just an idea: we have put together one mailbox lighting package using white > (the color of moonlight, actually) LEDs. The primary advantage is that the > power consumption is so low that the whole system is kinda minitiarized. > Whole system installed for <$1K. Client very pleased. We worked with Bill > Hollibaugh of Holly Solar on that one. Hollysolar.com. > > Allan @ Positive Energy > -----Original Message----- > From: John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Date: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 5:44 AM > Subject: Internally lit signs in cold weather [RE-wrenches] > > >Hi group, > > Has anyone had any luck converting a standard internally lit 2-sided > sign > >with 48" fluorescent tubes to 12VDC but also will work in cold weather? I > >just got involved with a local electrician hired to get power to a new sign > >at a school. The wire would have to be buried under 2 paved driveways. > >Solar is the answer but we want to work with the brand new sign installed. > >It's a perfect demonstration project as the solar panel will be pleasingly > >visible on a heavily traveled highway. Any ideas? > > > >John Blittersdorf > >Central Vermont Solar and Wind > > > >- - - - - - - > >To send a message: > > > > > >The archive of previous messages: > > > > >To unsubscribe: > > > > > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > > > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > > > > >For info contact list moderator: > > > >___________________________________________________________ > >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ________________________________________________________________________ > Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From telliot at wagonmaker.com Wed Aug 9 12:43:38 2000 From: telliot at wagonmaker.com (Tom Elliot) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 09:43:38 -0700 Subject: Trace SW FET damage [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1262882473-212058698-965839418@topica.com> I know this is a rather long post but I thought I'd let you all know the current state of my dealings with Trace concerning the damaged FETs and genset overvoltage conditions. If anyone else has any ideas as to how such damage could occur I'm all ears, especially in light of Pat Kiernan's getting much the same information from a Trace tech on FET damage as I did originally. The series of posts included here are in "bottom up" format ################################################################# Geoff, That is all rather fascinating. The unit arrived yesterday in good shape (no box damage) though I haven't unpacked it yet. I have to wonder what could have "corrupted" the data on the oscilloscope that I used for only the load pattern that was out of spec and not the rest of the data that showed in spec. Any ideas on that? Since you seem to feel that the problem is on my end I would certainly appreciate any suggestions you might have as to what could have caused the condition to show up on the unit or the oscilloscope at that particular load. It would give me some help in troubleshooting the problem at my end, if there is one. Also, I have never gotten a good answer as to what could have caused the extensive FET damage to my original unit. If, as you say, the generator couldn't do it, and the FETs are so well protected, how could they have become damaged? I'm certainly not doing anything out of the ordinary with my system. It is installed correctly, grounded correctly, and never loaded too heavily. So what could have caused it? Also, I just noticed on the Wrench list that a Wrench had gotten essentially the same information as I had from one of your techs, i.e. that the damaged FETs were due to an overvoltage on the AC input. Thanks for checking out my unit, I appreciate the help with this. Looking forward to hearing from you. Tom Elliot Guffey Energy Works Solar Energy Education http://www.wagonmaker.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geoff Levin" To: Cc: "Ezra Auerbach" ; "Christopher Freitas" ; "Steve Higgins" ; "Nick Klein" Sent: Monday, August 07, 2000 10:51 AM Subject: SW inverter return > Tom, > > The unit that you sent back for evaluation (Serial # W12975, RMA # 23953-1: > AC output problems based on the data that you submitted to Ezra) has been > thoroughly tested by the ENTIRE warranty department. The reason for this is > that no matter how hard any of the technicians looked, there were no > problems found with the unit that you sent back. > > The waveform produced (under both resistive and inductive loads) is normal > to a SW inverter - not like the captured data that you originally sent. > This means several things: > > 1) This unit has gone through your "run out of fuel" charging cycle - and > operates within normal operating parameters - this supports my earlier > statement that although we do not recommend this approach for battery > charging, the inverter will disconnect upon poor power output from the > genset - and should be OK. > 2) The data that you took is apparently corrupted - we used several > calibrated oscilloscopes on your SW inverter in the warranty department labs > - with normal waveform produced under a variety of loading conditions. > 3) The "hum" that you describe on the AC line may very well be caused by > circumstances outside those of the inverter. For example - have you ever > tried to use your headset and microphone right BEFORE (not after) you charge > your batteries, or during different AC loading conditions - hum can be > caused by things other than the inverter.... > > The inverter has already been shipped back to you, so you should be getting > it within the next few days. > > Geoff Levin > Regional Director, > Northeastern United States > Distributed Residential and Commercial Markets > Xantrex / Trace Engineering > Email: glevin at traceengineering.com > Website: www.traceengineering.com > Tel: (781) 440-0063 or (360) 435-8826 x4053 > Fax: (781) 440-0789 > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Elliot [mailto:telliot at wagonmaker.com] > Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 3:54 PM > To: Geoff Levin > Subject: Re: SW4024 > > > Geoff, > > OK here is the scoop on my system as it currently stands. > > The serial number on the SW is W12975. > > Battery bank is 1050 amphours and was installed in 1994. > > The system powers a typical home installation which you can see, along with > pictures, at www.wagonmaker.com . The installation has been upgraded since > the pictures on the website to include an RV Power Products Solar Boost 50 D > in place of the Omnimeter for charge control. > > AC loads run are, Vestfrost freezer, Vestfrost refrigerator, occasional > power tools (chop saw, 10" table saw, circular saws, drills, sanders, etc.), > TV, satellite dish, home entertainment center, 2 laptops and 1 desktop > computer (seldom simultaneously) and we use Phillips compact florescent > light capsules for lighting (only intermittent use of incandescent bulbs for > short duration lighting. > > All AC wiring in the house is 12-2 w/ground, wiring from the genset to the > inverter is 10 AWG wired to AC2 in. The genset is a Generac 10KW electric > start unit that is less than 4 years old and has less than 400 hours on it. > > DC wiring for the batteries and inverter are 00 battery interconnects > (series and parallel cabling) and 0000 cable from the batteries to the > inverter with cable length of 6 feet. Batteries are isolated in their own > box and the power system is in a dedicated space that is 6' x 8' with a 12 > foot peak ceiling. Plenty of air clearance around inverter with no > obstructions. The entire system is grounded to multiple ground rods bonded > together with all system grounds including a comprensive lighting protection > system. We have sustained no lightning strikes in 6 years. Wiring for the > PV is all #6awg at less than 60 feet. There are two separate arrays of 600 > watts each with their own wiring runs to the charge controller. > > Hope that helps. My suspicions are that allowing the genset to run out of > gas caused the overvoltage that damaged the FETs. I have talked to a friend > who is quite knowledgeable about such things and he felt that you might be > cutting it a little close using 200 volt FETs and might have protected from > this by using 400 volt FETs. > > Basically, our original unit, which was recently rebuilt, (RMA #21102-1 Ken > Ripley) was replaced by the current unit at time I sent the original back. > When I installed the current unit I did some admittedly simple tests, > basically I went to my computer and tried to use my headset and microphone > to record. Previously, on my original unit, I had lots of hum through the > microphone and couldn't make recordings on the computer. When I tested the > current unit after installation, I had virtually no hum. However after I > put the unit through a charge cycle using the genset (letting the genset run > out of gas, prior to my conversation with the tech which indicated that this > wasn't a good idea) I began to notice a hum again on my microphone. The > data I sent you reflects the condition of the current unit after a genset > out-of-gas condition. > > I run my system with 1200 watts of PV and because of our location in the CO > mountains, we don't have to use the generator much for charging, probably 25 > hours a year. Our average daily power consumption is 3.5 to 4.5 kWhrs, of > which about 2 is for the freezer and fridge. > > We pump our water with a Shurflo DC well pump and pressurize with a DC > pressure pump (a Dankoff pump) so we don't have any heavy power usage for > well pumping. > > Hope that gives you enough information. Please let me know if you need > more. > > Thanks for your help. > > Tom Elliot > Guffey Energy Works > Solar Energy Education > http://www.wagonmaker.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Geoff Levin" > To: "Tom Elliot (E-mail)" > Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 9:11 AM > Subject: SW4024 > > > > Tom, > > > > I have received your data files and believe that the SW is not working > > correctly. Can you fill me in with some history and the application? > > > > I believe when we spoke, you had a genset hooked up as well, can you give > me > > the specifics on the genset as well? > > > > Specifically, I am looking for: > > > > SW4024 serial # > > AH of battery bank, age of battery bank > > typical AC loads run from SW > > AC and DC wires runs and cable thicknesses (approximate) > > Installation specifics inside mounting, enclosed in a cabinet? > > AC genset kW rating, manufacturer and age... > > > > > > Geoff Levin > > Regional Director, > > Northeastern United States > > glevin at traceengineering.com > > > > Trace Engineering - Boston > > 2806 Village Road West > > Norwood, MA 02062 > > 781.440.0063 Phone > > 781.440.0789 Fax > > > ######################################################################## Tom Elliot Guffey Energy Works Solar Energy Education http://www.wagonmaker.com - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From microhydro at dplus.net Wed Aug 9 18:09:17 2000 From: microhydro at dplus.net (Ron Macleod) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 15:09:17 -0700 Subject: Fire Wind and Rain? [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1262882473-212058698-965839418@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1579415452-212058698-965858957@topica.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay at asis.com Wed Aug 9 21:59:03 2000 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 18:59:03 -0700 Subject: Fire Wind and Rain? [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1262882473-212058698-965839418@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1579415452-212058698-965858957@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1165687996-951758591-965872743@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 2363 bytes Desc: not available URL: From trav_t at yahoo.com Thu Aug 10 11:55:06 2000 From: trav_t at yahoo.com (Travis Thompson) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 08:55:06 -0700 Subject: Sw upgrade chips [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.2013949916-212058698-965279085@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1384890841-212058698-965922906@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 5777 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sunpwr at jps.net Thu Aug 10 17:45:40 2000 From: sunpwr at jps.net (Chuck Heath, SunPower) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 14:45:40 -0700 Subject: Trace reply: Charger drops offline [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1713729290-212058698-965943940@topica.com> Here's the reply I received from Trace tech support. I won't have a chance to try their suggestions for a few days, but will report back after I do. Thanks to all wrenches who offered help and suggestions. Cordially, Chuck -=-=- Chuck, Put gen input to AC1, select "off" in gen menu and manually start generator. If results are the same, the there is a problem with the generator voltage or frequency. Rarely do both AC1 and AC2 fail at the same time. We can take a look at the inverter here to be sure but if no problems are found, there will be a $60. bench fee. Bryan A. Dybvig Xantrex Trace Engineering Product Support Technician bdybvig at traceengineering.com (360) 435-8826 EXT. 2203 > -----Original Message----- > From: Chuck Heath [SMTP:sunpwr at jps.net] > Sent: Monday, August 07, 2000 11:20 AM > To: Bryan > Subject: Charger drops offline > > This is a repeat of the email sent 7/12/00 for which I'm still seeking > answers, or an RMA to return the unit. Please confirm receipt of this > message, since Bryan left a telephone message saying he never received > the original email message. > > Client reported charger of a SW 4024 (v. 4.01, s/n W4649) not working > properly. Site visit confirmed this. Only charging source is a > propane-fueled Kohler 12 RY generator, re-wired for 120 VAC (12 kW before > altitude derating). Battery is type 85-25 two-volt cells, 1270 AH @ 20 > hr. discharge rate. System installed in February, 1997. > > Symptoms: Trace sees AC-2 Good from Kohler, goes into Bulk charging for > only 30-35 seconds, then drops out of Bulk and back to inverting for 10 > seconds until cycle repeats. Kohler voltage is a steady 117-118 VAC > whether under load or not. Trace reports Kohler frequency as rock-solid > 60 cps. > > After nearly 6 hours generator runtime, was able to raise battery voltage > from 26.8 to 27.2 VDC - not nearly enough. At-rest battery voltage was > 24.9 VDC. Set Gen Amps AC (Menu #11) and Set Max Charge Amps AC (Menu > #10) are both at 35 Amps AC. Lower values did not change results, nor did > changing Set Float Voltage (27.1 VDC) to match Set Bulk Voltage setting > (Menu #10) of 29.8 VDC. Inverter/Charger AC Amps while charging was 30-32 - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunwise at win.bright.net Fri Aug 11 00:37:15 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (Kurt Nelson, SunWise) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 21:37:15 -0700 Subject: Trace reply: Charger drops offline [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1162997935-951758591-965968635@topica.com> Chuck wrote: Symptoms: Trace sees AC-2 Good from Kohler, goes into Bulk charging for >> only 30-35 seconds, then drops out of Bulk and back to inverting for 10 >> seconds until cycle repeats. Kohler voltage is a steady 117-118 VAC >> whether under load or not. Trace reports Kohler frequency as rock-solid >> 60 cps. Greetings Chuck, Looking at your message and wondering if we could have questionable readings. Was your volt meter true RMS? Also, did Trace check out the Gen-set?? ("Trace reports Kohler frequency as rock-solid 60 cps".). Off frequency could be the problem. Kurt Nelson - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solarjon at netshel.net Fri Aug 11 16:10:15 2000 From: solarjon at netshel.net (Jonathan Hill) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 13:10:15 -0700 Subject: Conserve SE215 [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1929002142-212058698-965759402@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1473423636-951758591-965673253@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1929002142-212058698-965759402@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.140601552-951758591-966024615@topica.com> >This whole issue will soon become academic. I just got word that >the Conserv freezer is being discontinued, so the won't be available >in a few months. Jon Hill >Hi Travis, >We've tested several of the Vestfrost/Conserv freezers and typically find >750-850 watt hour per day to be the norm. Biggest variable is not >how often its >opened, but rather how often and how much non-frozen foods are put in to >freeze. Danby makes a 5.3 chest freezer that under similar usage uses 500-600 >w/h per day. The reall advantage is its cost $250-$300. >Regards, >Bob Maynard >Energy Outfitters >800-467-6527 > >"Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar" wrote: > > > I have been measuring my Conserve SE215 chest freezer and I am not finding > > it to come very close to it's claimed .54 kWh per day @ 77f. I am using > > Brand Power meter and measuring at least .81 kWh @ 75f - 85f per >day on just > > about the lowest setting. > > > > Any one else have this model and any kWh numbers. I'm not surprised to > > find this higher usage but I was curious if mine was a higher than others > > and if that indicated a malfunctioning unit. > > > > Thanks > > Travis Creswell > > Ozark Solar > > > > - - - - - - - > > To send a message: > > > > > > The archive of previous messages: > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > > > > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > > > > > For info contact list moderator: > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >________________________________________________________________________ >Start an Email List For Free at Topica. http://www.topica.com/register ----------------- Sierra Solar Systems 109-N Argall Way Nevada City, CA 95959 tech info and foreign orders: (530) 265-8441 order line: (800) 51-SOLAR (US only) FAX: (530) 265-6151 e-mail: world wide web: Because of the high volume of e-mail to which I respond, please leave _all_ of the previous message (unless it's unbearable) in your reply so I can better remember your original message. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solarjon at netshel.net Fri Aug 11 17:35:37 2000 From: solarjon at netshel.net (Jonathan Hill) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 14:35:37 -0700 Subject: Fire Wind and Rain? [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1579415452-212058698-965858957@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1262882473-212058698-965839418@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1579415452-212058698-965858957@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.514117829-212058698-966029737@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 1669 bytes Desc: not available URL: From steve at backwoodssolar.com Fri Aug 11 20:01:55 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 17:01:55 -0700 Subject: Trace reply: Charger drops offline [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1162997935-951758591-965968635@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2066467697-951758591-966038515@topica.com> he probably means the Trace inverter reports generator solid. That inverter, once kicked out back to inverter function only reads its own frequency. You have to check the error causes list to see if the gen has gone out of freq or just use a separate meter. Its common to have the gradually increasing battery charger load through a generator off freq and drop off charge, whereupon the generator restores its rpm and the inverter meter starts reading inverter frequency. You would have to watch it through the whole cycle on gen frequency to catch the change starting if that is what goes on. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems A catalog business on a mountain 2 miles from utility lines, powered entirely by our catalog products. IF UTILITY POWER IS 1/2 MILE OR MORE FROM YOUR SITE, get our free 160 page solar-electric Planning Guide/Catalog. (Your postal address required - Our list is never given or sold). Phone(208)263-4290 Fax (208) 265-4788 in Idaho, USA ----- Original Message ----- From: Kurt Nelson, SunWise To: Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2000 9:37 PM Subject: Re: Trace reply: Charger drops offline [RE-wrenches] > Chuck wrote: > > Symptoms: Trace sees AC-2 Good from Kohler, goes into Bulk charging for > >> only 30-35 seconds, then drops out of Bulk and back to inverting for 10 > >> seconds until cycle repeats. Kohler voltage is a steady 117-118 VAC > >> whether under load or not. Trace reports Kohler frequency as rock-solid > >> 60 cps. > > > Greetings Chuck, > > Looking at your message and wondering if we could have questionable > readings. Was your volt meter true RMS? Also, did Trace check out the > Gen-set?? ("Trace reports Kohler frequency as rock-solid 60 cps".). Off > frequency could be the problem. > > Kurt Nelson > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From allan at positivenergy.com Sat Aug 12 18:10:18 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 15:10:18 -0700 Subject: Trace reply: Charger drops offline [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.935101737-212058698-966118218@topica.com> Chuck, This is a long shot: check the 35A generator thermal breaker on the left side of the inverter. Some won't handle 35 amps, and will do a similar latch-unlatch sequence. I had it happen on Thursday on a 4024. Stumped me until I saw the breaker had tripped, because it doesn't act like a normal open AC circuit breaker. Try bypassing the breaker for testing. Allan at Positive Energy -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Heath, SunPower To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Date: Thursday, August 10, 2000 3:50 PM Subject: Trace reply: Charger drops offline [RE-wrenches] >Here's the reply I received from Trace tech support. I won't have a >chance to try their suggestions for a few days, but will report back >after I do. > >Thanks to all wrenches who offered help and suggestions. > >Cordially, Chuck > >-=-=- >Chuck, >Put gen input to AC1, select "off" in gen menu and manually start >generator. >If results are the same, the there is a problem with the generator voltage >or frequency. Rarely do both AC1 and AC2 fail at the same time. We can >take >a look at the inverter here to be sure but if no problems are found, there >will be a $60. bench fee. > >Bryan A. Dybvig >Xantrex Trace Engineering >Product Support Technician >bdybvig at traceengineering.com >(360) 435-8826 EXT. 2203 > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Chuck Heath [SMTP:sunpwr at jps.net] >> Sent: Monday, August 07, 2000 11:20 AM >> To: Bryan >> Subject: Charger drops offline >> >> This is a repeat of the email sent 7/12/00 for which I'm still seeking >> answers, or an RMA to return the unit. Please confirm receipt of this >> message, since Bryan left a telephone message saying he never received >> the original email message. >> >> Client reported charger of a SW 4024 (v. 4.01, s/n W4649) not working >> properly. Site visit confirmed this. Only charging source is a >> propane-fueled Kohler 12 RY generator, re-wired for 120 VAC (12 kW before >> altitude derating). Battery is type 85-25 two-volt cells, 1270 AH @ 20 >> hr. discharge rate. System installed in February, 1997. >> >> Symptoms: Trace sees AC-2 Good from Kohler, goes into Bulk charging for >> only 30-35 seconds, then drops out of Bulk and back to inverting for 10 >> seconds until cycle repeats. Kohler voltage is a steady 117-118 VAC >> whether under load or not. Trace reports Kohler frequency as rock-solid >> 60 cps. >> >> After nearly 6 hours generator runtime, was able to raise battery voltage >> from 26.8 to 27.2 VDC - not nearly enough. At-rest battery voltage was >> 24.9 VDC. Set Gen Amps AC (Menu #11) and Set Max Charge Amps AC (Menu >> #10) are both at 35 Amps AC. Lower values did not change results, nor did >> changing Set Float Voltage (27.1 VDC) to match Set Bulk Voltage setting >> (Menu #10) of 29.8 VDC. Inverter/Charger AC Amps while charging was 30-32 >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From allan at positivenergy.com Sat Aug 12 18:21:25 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 15:21:25 -0700 Subject: Polotically Correct modules [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1280449703-212058698-966118885@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 1867 bytes Desc: not available URL: From richard.perez at homepower.com Sat Aug 12 19:13:28 2000 From: richard.perez at homepower.com (Richard Perez, Home Power magazine) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 16:13:28 -0700 Subject: Politically Correct modules [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1280449703-212058698-966118885@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1280449703-212058698-966118885@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.464866555-212058698-966122008@topica.com> Hello Allan Try Kyocera, Siemens, and Astropower. They are not into any oil money and last time I looked they were not persecuting anyone. Richard At 15:21 -0700 08/12/2000, allan wrote: >Wrenches, > > I usually use BP modules in our systems, only because of a >strong allegiance to Dankoff Solar Products, who is a BP >distributor. I have a strong lead for a 1 kW system upgrade who >doesn't want to use BP because they are persecuting Christians in >southern Sudan. Never being a big fan of Big Oil anyway, I got to >wondering: which readily available, large size (say, 75-120 watts), >warranted, UL-listed, yada, yada, modules are the most righteous? > >Defensible opinions appreciated here--thanks! > >Allan at Positive Energy ------------------------------------ Richard Pérez Home Power PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA Tele: 530-475-3179 FAX: 530-475-0836 Subscriptions: 800-707-6585 mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com Web: http://www.homepower.com - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From freepower at freepower.co.nz Sun Aug 13 06:37:57 2000 From: freepower at freepower.co.nz (Carl Emerson) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 03:37:57 -0700 Subject: Polotically Correct modules [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1280449703-212058698-966118885@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1159642100-212058698-966163077@topica.com> Allan... Further to Richards suggestions can I make a plug for Canon/Unisolar being PC. Advantages include no glass, two years use to return the energy of manufacture, very low CO2 emmission during production process. Canon is committed to 'Kyosei" Performance wise, check out Real Goods "Solar Shootout" at Solfest '98 in June '98. Canon US64 out performed Siemens and Astropower 75 Watt modules by 9% and 12% respectively. I can supply supportive data if needed. Cheers Carl Emerson Manager FREEPOWER LTD. "Harnessing Natural Energy" AUCKLAND 356 East Coast Road, Mairangi Bay, P.O. Box 68-247, AUCKLAND, New Zealand. Voice +64 9 478-0404 Mobile 021-633999 Cellfax 021-2919399 Fax +64 9 478-0405 Email emerson at freepower.co.nz Full support of Power Systems utilizing Solar, Wind and Water Energy including 'Grid Embedded' generation. allan wrote: > Wrenches, I usually use BP modules in our systems, only because > of a strong allegiance to Dankoff Solar Products, who is a BP > distributor. I have a strong lead for a 1 kW system upgrade who > doesn't want to use BP because they are persecuting Christians in > southern Sudan. Never being a big fan of Big Oil anyway, I got to > wondering: which readily available, large size (say, 75-120 watts), > warranted, UL-listed, yada, yada, modules are the most > righteous? Defensible opinions appreciated here--thanks! Allan at > Positive Energy - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From jay at asis.com Sun Aug 13 10:58:05 2000 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 07:58:05 -0700 Subject: heliotrope cc-50 questions [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.566275379-212058698-965684628@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1732814777-951758591-966178685@topica.com> Hi all, I have a customer with an old CC-50 Heliotrope and I am looking for help/manual. I am trying to adjust the voltage setpoints. There are dip switches, that look to be the only adjustment points. Thanks, jay peltz peltz power - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From jay at asis.com Sun Aug 13 11:02:49 2000 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 08:02:49 -0700 Subject: Politically Correct modules [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1280449703-212058698-966118885@topica.com> <0.1300002502.464866555-212058698-966122008@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.150345532-212058698-966178969@topica.com> Hello Allan, You might try Astropower as they use "recycled" silicon, makes them the most green of any single crystal panel I know of. Jay peltz "Richard Perez, Home Power magazine" wrote: > Hello Allan > > Try Kyocera, Siemens, and Astropower. They are not into any oil money > and last time I looked they were not persecuting anyone. > > Richard > > At 15:21 -0700 08/12/2000, allan wrote: > >Wrenches, > > > > I usually use BP modules in our systems, only because of a > >strong allegiance to Dankoff Solar Products, who is a BP > >distributor. I have a strong lead for a 1 kW system upgrade who > >doesn't want to use BP because they are persecuting Christians in > >southern Sudan. Never being a big fan of Big Oil anyway, I got to > >wondering: which readily available, large size (say, 75-120 watts), > >warranted, UL-listed, yada, yada, modules are the most righteous? > > > >Defensible opinions appreciated here--thanks! > > > >Allan at Positive Energy > > ------------------------------------ > Richard Pérez > Home Power > PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA > Tele: 530-475-3179 > FAX: 530-475-0836 > Subscriptions: 800-707-6585 > mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com > Web: http://www.homepower.com > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Sun Aug 13 11:45:54 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 08:45:54 -0700 Subject: heliotrope cc-50 questions [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.566275379-212058698-965684628@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1732814777-951758591-966178685@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1119446772-951758591-966181554@topica.com> heliptrope dip switches set the voltage. There should be a long narrow strip of paper glued on the bottom inside or the cover that gives switch settings. I can supply current CC60D switch settings if needed but look for that paper first. Write me privately if you need the current setting sheet and I will get it Monday to you. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems ----- Original Message ----- From: jay peltz To: Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2000 7:58 AM Subject: heliotrope cc-50 questions [RE-wrenches] > Hi all, > > I have a customer with an old CC-50 Heliotrope and I am looking for help/manual. I am trying to > adjust the voltage setpoints. There are dip switches, that look to be the only adjustment > points. > > Thanks, > > jay peltz > peltz power > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From microhydro at dplus.net Sun Aug 13 11:54:48 2000 From: microhydro at dplus.net (Ron Macleod) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 08:54:48 -0700 Subject: AERL MPPT New Address [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1280449703-212058698-966118885@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1159642100-212058698-966163077@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1728558242-212058698-966182088@topica.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From richard.perez at homepower.com Sun Aug 13 12:50:31 2000 From: richard.perez at homepower.com (Richard Perez, Home Power magazine) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 09:50:31 -0700 Subject: heliotrope cc-50 questions [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1732814777-951758591-966178685@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.566275379-212058698-965684628@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1732814777-951758591-966178685@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1159316459-212058698-966185431@topica.com> Hello Jay Actually it's a CC-60 and the dip switch settings are pasted to the inside of the front cover of the control. Remove the four screws holding on the cover and check it out. You are correct, the regulation voltage is set by DIP switches. I have two of these controls here and can probably hunt up the docs if you really need them. All the set point instructions should be inside the front cover of the control. Richard >Hi all, > >I have a customer with an old CC-50 Heliotrope and I am looking for >help/manual. I am trying to >adjust the voltage setpoints. There are dip switches, that look to >be the only adjustment >points. > >Thanks, > >jay peltz >peltz power ------------------------------------ Richard Pérez Home Power PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA Tele: 530-475-3179 FAX: 530-475-0836 Subscriptions: 800-707-6585 mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com Web: http://www.homepower.com - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From bob at energyoutfitters.com Sun Aug 13 13:10:26 2000 From: bob at energyoutfitters.com (Bob Maynard, Energy Outfitters) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 10:10:26 -0700 Subject: Politically Correct modules [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1280449703-212058698-966118885@topica.com> <0.1300002502.464866555-212058698-966122008@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1753209677-212058698-966186626@topica.com> Hi Allan, I have heard and not substantiated that Astropower is using some type of chemical process to cleanup they so called recycled silicon they use and is supposed quite toxic and enevironmentally unfriendly. This is third hand info and if anyone could prove or disprove, please let me know. Thanks, Bob Maynard Energy Outfitters "Richard Perez, Home Power magazine" wrote: > Hello Allan > > Try Kyocera, Siemens, and Astropower. They are not into any oil money > and last time I looked they were not persecuting anyone. > > Richard > > At 15:21 -0700 08/12/2000, allan wrote: > >Wrenches, > > > > I usually use BP modules in our systems, only because of a > >strong allegiance to Dankoff Solar Products, who is a BP > >distributor. I have a strong lead for a 1 kW system upgrade who > >doesn't want to use BP because they are persecuting Christians in > >southern Sudan. Never being a big fan of Big Oil anyway, I got to > >wondering: which readily available, large size (say, 75-120 watts), > >warranted, UL-listed, yada, yada, modules are the most righteous? > > > >Defensible opinions appreciated here--thanks! > > > >Allan at Positive Energy > > ------------------------------------ > Richard Pérez > Home Power > PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA > Tele: 530-475-3179 > FAX: 530-475-0836 > Subscriptions: 800-707-6585 > mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com > Web: http://www.homepower.com > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From vtsolar1 at together.net Sun Aug 13 15:06:41 2000 From: vtsolar1 at together.net (Kirk Herander, VT Solar) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 12:06:41 -0700 Subject: Politically Correct modules - Not [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1280449703-212058698-966118885@topica.com> <0.1300002502.464866555-212058698-966122008@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1753209677-212058698-966186626@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.818642038-212058698-966193601@topica.com> Hello, There is no such thing as a 100% "politically correct" module. Every manufacturer uses toxic chemicals in semiconductor production, and just how well the environment and employee's health are preserved in the process is hard to quantify. Some are owned by big oil. Some also manufacture control and distribution equipment for the nuclear industry. I once had a customer who refused to buy Siemens modules, telling me that Siemens was an important supplier to (and money maker from) the Nazi war effort in WWII . In this age of multi-nationals, mergers and aquisitions, you cannot find a module OEM whose parent company's enviromental record, labor practices, political bedfellows, ect. aren't objectionable (and rightly so) to some segment of the world. regards, Kirk "Bob Maynard, Energy Outfitters" wrote: > Hi Allan, > I have heard and not substantiated that Astropower is using some type of > chemical process to cleanup they so called recycled silicon they use and > is supposed quite toxic and enevironmentally unfriendly. This is third > hand info and if anyone could prove or disprove, please let me know. > Thanks, > Bob Maynard > Energy Outfitters > > "Richard Perez, Home Power magazine" wrote: > > > Hello Allan > > > > Try Kyocera, Siemens, and Astropower. They are not into any oil money > > and last time I looked they were not persecuting anyone. > > > > Richard > > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From jay at asis.com Sun Aug 13 20:10:57 2000 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 17:10:57 -0700 Subject: heliotrope cc-50 questions [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.566275379-212058698-965684628@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1732814777-951758591-966178685@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1159316459-212058698-966185431@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1511097246-951758591-966211857@topica.com> Hi Richard, Thanks I'll check it again, probably just missed it. Thanks for the info. As to the AStropower issue. I have talked to the folks at astropower in person when I worked for AEE, but I cannot remember any discussion of toxic chemicals so I don't know about that. They do use silicon wafers that would otherwise be put in a land fill and so are therfore saving that product. I have found that the folks a AP are really helpful. I suggest that you contact Rob Moon ( not the right spelling though). Or you might try chris molello at cmolello at astropower.com Thanks again, jay "Richard Perez, Home Power magazine" wrote: > Hello Jay > > Actually it's a CC-60 and the dip switch settings are pasted to the > inside of the front cover of the control. Remove the four screws > holding on the cover and check it out. You are correct, the > regulation voltage is set by DIP switches. > > I have two of these controls here and can probably hunt up the docs > if you really need them. All the set point instructions should be > inside the front cover of the control. > > Richard > > >Hi all, > > > >I have a customer with an old CC-50 Heliotrope and I am looking for > >help/manual. I am trying to > >adjust the voltage setpoints. There are dip switches, that look to > >be the only adjustment > >points. > > > >Thanks, > > > >jay peltz > >peltz power > > ------------------------------------ > Richard Pérez > Home Power > PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA > Tele: 530-475-3179 > FAX: 530-475-0836 > Subscriptions: 800-707-6585 > mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com > Web: http://www.homepower.com > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From jay at asis.com Sun Aug 13 20:12:05 2000 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 17:12:05 -0700 Subject: heliotrope cc-50 questions [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.566275379-212058698-965684628@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1732814777-951758591-966178685@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1159316459-212058698-966185431@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.70179580-951758591-966211925@topica.com> Hi Richard, Thanks I'll check it again, probably just missed it. Thanks for the info. As to the AStropower issue. I have talked to the folks at astropower in person when I worked for AEE, but I cannot remember any discussion of toxic chemicals so I don't know about that. They do use silicon wafers that would otherwise be put in a land fill and so are therfore saving that product. I have found that the folks a AP are really helpful. I suggest that you contact Rob Moon ( not the right spelling though). Or you might try chris molello at cmolello at astropower.com Thanks again, jay "Richard Perez, Home Power magazine" wrote: > Hello Jay > > Actually it's a CC-60 and the dip switch settings are pasted to the > inside of the front cover of the control. Remove the four screws > holding on the cover and check it out. You are correct, the > regulation voltage is set by DIP switches. > > I have two of these controls here and can probably hunt up the docs > if you really need them. All the set point instructions should be > inside the front cover of the control. > > Richard > > >Hi all, > > > >I have a customer with an old CC-50 Heliotrope and I am looking for > >help/manual. I am trying to > >adjust the voltage setpoints. There are dip switches, that look to > >be the only adjustment > >points. > > > >Thanks, > > > >jay peltz > >peltz power > > ------------------------------------ > Richard Pérez > Home Power > PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA > Tele: 530-475-3179 > FAX: 530-475-0836 > Subscriptions: 800-707-6585 > mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com > Web: http://www.homepower.com > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From jay at asis.com Sun Aug 13 20:12:13 2000 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 17:12:13 -0700 Subject: PV intertie anouncement [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1280449703-212058698-966118885@topica.com> <0.1300002502.464866555-212058698-966122008@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1753209677-212058698-966186626@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1328248619-951758591-966211933@topica.com> Hi all, Just wanted to let you know that I am the proud father of a 880 watt ( ASE 220 watt panels with AEI GC-1000 inverter) system. I have put back around 3.5 kwh/day so far ( 3 days!!) And I also just finished installing for someone else a 2kw ( solec 100's) on two dual axis trackers, using a Trace 4048. I have seen 12 amps peak being sent back. These are both legal systems that are getting moneies back from the State. Thanks, jay Peltz Peltz power - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From richard.perez at homepower.com Sun Aug 13 20:36:29 2000 From: richard.perez at homepower.com (Richard Perez, Home Power magazine) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 17:36:29 -0700 Subject: PV intertie anouncement [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1328248619-951758591-966211933@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1280449703-212058698-966118885@topica.com> <0.1300002502.464866555-212058698-966122008@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1753209677-212058698-966186626@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1328248619-951758591-966211933@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.840807718-212058698-966213389@topica.com> Way to go, Jay! Every solar electron on grid is worth ten brown, coal-fired electrons! Richard At 17:12 -0700 08/13/2000, jay peltz wrote: >Hi all, > >Just wanted to let you know that I am the proud father of a 880 watt ( ASE >220 watt panels with AEI GC-1000 inverter) system. I have put back around >3.5 kwh/day so far ( 3 days!!) > >And I also just finished installing for someone else a 2kw ( solec 100's) on >two dual axis trackers, using a Trace 4048. I have seen 12 amps peak being >sent back. > >These are both legal systems that are getting moneies back from the State. > >Thanks, > >jay Peltz >Peltz power ------------------------------------ Richard Pérez Home Power PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA Tele: 530-475-3179 FAX: 530-475-0836 Subscriptions: 800-707-6585 mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com Web: http://www.homepower.com - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solarbeacon at email.msn.com Mon Aug 14 10:37:10 2000 From: solarbeacon at email.msn.com (Bill Roush, Solar Electric Systems) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 07:37:10 -0700 Subject: Polotically Correct modules [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1159642100-212058698-966163077@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.139800487-951758591-966263830@topica.com> Carl and others, Canon's 49% of Uni-Solar was sold to Bekaert recently. They are a European based world wide metal manufacturer. They have a steel belt (for radial tires) plant in AR and a dozen other major plants in the US. Also, Texaco bought 20% of Energy Conversion Devices, the Uni-Solar parent company, because they are very interested in their hydrogen storage R & D. Best, Bill Roush Solar Electric Systems of Kansas City, Inc. 13700 W. 108th St. Lenexa, KS 66215 913-338-1939 800-632-9751 913-469-5522fax solarbeacon at email.msn.com www.solarbeacon.com -----Original Message----- From: Carl Emerson [mailto:freepower at freepower.co.nz] Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2000 5:38 AM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Re: Polotically Correct modules [RE-wrenches] Allan... Further to Richards suggestions can I make a plug for Canon/Unisolar being PC. Advantages include no glass, two years use to return the energy of manufacture, very low CO2 emmission during production process. Canon is committed to 'Kyosei" Performance wise, check out Real Goods "Solar Shootout" at Solfest '98 in June '98. Canon US64 out performed Siemens and Astropower 75 Watt modules by 9% and 12% respectively. I can supply supportive data if needed. Cheers Carl Emerson Manager FREEPOWER LTD. "Harnessing Natural Energy" AUCKLAND 356 East Coast Road, Mairangi Bay, P.O. Box 68-247, AUCKLAND, New Zealand. Voice +64 9 478-0404 Mobile 021-633999 Cellfax 021-2919399 Fax +64 9 478-0405 Email emerson at freepower.co.nz Full support of Power Systems utilizing Solar, Wind and Water Energy including 'Grid Embedded' generation. allan wrote: > Wrenches, I usually use BP modules in our systems, only because > of a strong allegiance to Dankoff Solar Products, who is a BP > distributor. I have a strong lead for a 1 kW system upgrade who > doesn't want to use BP because they are persecuting Christians in > southern Sudan. Never being a big fan of Big Oil anyway, I got to > wondering: which readily available, large size (say, 75-120 watts), > warranted, UL-listed, yada, yada, modules are the most > righteous? Defensible opinions appreciated here--thanks! Allan at > Positive Energy - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ezra at lasqueti.net Mon Aug 14 10:48:34 2000 From: ezra at lasqueti.net (Ezra Auerbach, Trace Engineering) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 07:48:34 -0700 Subject: PV intertie anouncement [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1280449703-212058698-966118885@topica.com> <0.1300002502.464866555-212058698-966122008@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1753209677-212058698-966186626@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1328248619-951758591-966211933@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.416429251-212058698-966264514@topica.com> Congratulations Jay, Keep them electrons flowing. Ezra jay peltz wrote: > Hi all, > > Just wanted to let you know that I am the proud father of a 880 watt ( ASE > 220 watt panels with AEI GC-1000 inverter) system. I have put back around > 3.5 kwh/day so far ( 3 days!!) > > And I also just finished installing for someone else a 2kw ( solec 100's) on > two dual axis trackers, using a Trace 4048. I have seen 12 amps peak being > sent back. > > These are both legal systems that are getting moneies back from the State. > > Thanks, > > jay Peltz > Peltz power > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Mon Aug 14 14:55:36 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 11:55:36 -0700 Subject: MIXED PANEL ARRAY'S [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.941888214-212058698-966279336@topica.com> Gang, I am doing some work for the USFS on small shower house system. I need to change out the charge controller, a Morningstar 30. I have yet to have one of those last more than a couple of years and don't use them anymore. The system currently is 12 volts with all 6 modules parallel on #12 wire going about 25 feet to the charge controller. Needless to say the wire was a little warm. I am going to add a Trace Combiner Box and if I the a Solar Boost 50 turn the 6 modules @ 12 volts into 3 sub arrays at 24 volts. If I use the Solar Boost 50 I can run the array @ 24 volts and keep the batteries at 12 volts. Even with the Solar Boost 50 they still need some more array though. They are pretty picky about using non-breakable modules which limits me to UniSolar. They currently have Duravolt 50's (MPP 2.9 amps @ 16.56 volts) which are polycrystal with the clear tedlar instead of glass fronts. Is MPPT going to work mixing amorphous and polycrystalline modules? Is MPPT as effective with Unisolar's as they supposedly have a much lower MPP voltage? Thanks Travis Creswell - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Mon Aug 14 14:55:55 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 11:55:55 -0700 Subject: 48 Volt Solar Boost 50 [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.291765922-212058698-966279355@topica.com> Allan, How much more effective is this than just using the factory settings? As I read it the unit is ready to go for the "average" 75 module? Can you use the same shunt as the Tri-Metric if you have one in the system? Travis Creswell ---------- >From: allan >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Subject: Re: 48 Volt Solar Boost 50 [RE-wrenches] >Date: Mon, Aug 7, 2000, 6:05 PM > >Our biggest headache is difficult initial setup. It takes a separate 12V >battery temp'ed in to set up the MPPT boost, as batteries must be full or >nearly so to set finish voltage from a meter. We use an old 12V 35A gel >cell for this. Of course, setting MPPT boost is best on a low battery...So >sometimes it's a guess. Test points a la C40 would be nice. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From i2p at aol.com Mon Aug 14 15:30:14 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (Don Loweburg, Offline) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 12:30:14 -0700 Subject: MIXED PANEL ARRAY'S [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.386003444-212058698-966281414@topica.com> In a message dated 08/14/2000 11:56:02 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ozsolar at ipa.net writes: << Is MPPT as effective with Unisolar's as they supposedly have a much lower MPP voltage? >> Not as. Mixing modules may require isolation diodes too because of the different voltages. You might also look at the products from Solar Converters. Best Don Loweburg - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Mon Aug 14 15:57:24 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 12:57:24 -0700 Subject: MIXED PANEL ARRAY'S [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.941888214-212058698-966279336@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1533694146-951758591-966283044@topica.com> Unisolar has lower peak power point, because they don't fall off in heat, so don't allow excess in the first place. Therefore there would not be as much boost. I would think with just 25 foot run that upgrading to correct cable size would be more practical than converting to 24 volt PV and back to 12 volt. Another consideration is that the boost 50 doing the conversion does not boost or even double when module power is down at 3 or 4 amp level as in morning or evening or with a smaller array. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems A catalog business on a mountain 2 miles from utility lines, powered entirely by our catalog products. IF UTILITY POWER IS 1/2 MILE OR MORE FROM YOUR SITE, get our free 160 page solar-electric Planning Guide/Catalog. (Your postal address required - Our list is never given or sold). Phone(208)263-4290 Fax (208) 265-4788 in Idaho, USA ----- Original Message ----- From: Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar To: RE-wrenches ; Sent: Monday, August 14, 2000 11:55 AM Subject: MIXED PANEL ARRAY'S [RE-wrenches] > Gang, > > I am doing some work for the USFS on small shower house system. I need to > change out the charge controller, a Morningstar 30. I have yet to have one > of those last more than a couple of years and don't use them anymore. > > The system currently is 12 volts with all 6 modules parallel on #12 wire > going about 25 feet to the charge controller. Needless to say the wire was > a little warm. I am going to add a Trace Combiner Box and if I the a > Solar Boost 50 turn the 6 modules @ 12 volts into 3 sub arrays at 24 volts. > If I use the Solar Boost 50 I can run the array @ 24 volts and keep the > batteries at 12 volts. > Even with the Solar Boost 50 they still need some more array though. They > are pretty picky about using non-breakable modules which limits me to > UniSolar. They currently have Duravolt 50's (MPP 2.9 amps @ 16.56 volts) > which are polycrystal with the clear tedlar instead of glass fronts. Is > MPPT going to work mixing amorphous and polycrystalline modules? Is MPPT as > effective with Unisolar's as they supposedly have a much lower MPP voltage? > > Thanks > Travis Creswell > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Mon Aug 14 16:31:22 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 13:31:22 -0700 Subject: MIXED PANEL ARRAY'S [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1834749521-951758591-966285082@topica.com> Steve I'm not sure what you are saying. Is this something you have seen as I don't think it would matter how large the array other than the the Solar Boost 50 itself would represent a larger draw on a smaller array. The main reason I am considering going to 24 volts is to leave as much room in the future for expansion. They are talking about wanting to be able to charge to Campground host's RV batteries as well. Also, to meet code you can never parallel modules so I have to pull wires for all 6 modules to the combiner box. I just as soon pull 3 runs instead of 6 runs. As I understand MPPT there is not much potential for boosting during warm weather and as batteries get fully charged. The colder the weather the higher the panels voltage gets this the more potential for boost. It makes sense that the UniSolar amorphous products don't have much application for MPPT as their MPP is pretty low to begin with. Thanks Travis Creswell ---------- >From: "Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar" >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Subject: Re: MIXED PANEL ARRAY'S [RE-wrenches] >Date: Mon, Aug 14, 2000, 2:57 PM > >Another consideration is that the boost 50 doing the conversion does >not boost or even double when module power is down at 3 or 4 amp level as in >morning or evening or with a smaller array - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Mon Aug 14 17:22:26 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 14:22:26 -0700 Subject: MIXED PANEL ARRAY'S [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1834749521-951758591-966285082@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1503755941-212058698-966288146@topica.com> TC: Yes observed and discussed with RV power. The solarboost 50 will use a bit of power especially in the voltage conversion mode and it stops converting voltage and stops boosting and just passes straight through at low power levels in the area of 3 amps plus or minus one. This is not significant when not converting voltage, just loses the boost function, but in 24 to 12 you actually get less power out to battery than in from array at low amp levels. If you have a smaller array, like well under the capacity of the Boost 50, then it will spend more time below the conversion and boost threshold than a larger array. at some point the boost unit is not going to be effective. I fear that effect combined with the amorphous lower PPP will cause you to gain little from the extra cost of the boost. However if future higher power array is expected, then only the amorphous part is to be considered. I thought the Siemens instruction sheet limit on not paralleling modules was discussed earlier on this group and decided the instructions were obsolete, per the factory, and it indeed was permissible to parallel two modules??? ?? Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems ----- Original Message ----- From: Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar To: Sent: Monday, August 14, 2000 1:31 PM Subject: Re: MIXED PANEL ARRAY'S [RE-wrenches] > Steve > > I'm not sure what you are saying. Is this something you have seen as I > don't think it would matter how large the array other than the the Solar > Boost 50 itself would represent a larger draw on a smaller array. The main > reason I am considering going to 24 volts is to leave as much room in the > future for expansion. They are talking about wanting to be able to charge to > Campground host's RV batteries as well. Also, to meet code you can never > parallel modules so I have to pull wires for all 6 modules to the combiner > box. I just as soon pull 3 runs instead of 6 runs. > > As I understand MPPT there is not much potential for boosting during warm > weather and as batteries get fully charged. The colder the weather the > higher the panels voltage gets this the more potential for boost. It makes > sense that the UniSolar amorphous products don't have much application for > MPPT as their MPP is pretty low to begin with. > > Thanks > Travis Creswell - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From allan at positivenergy.com Mon Aug 14 17:41:55 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 14:41:55 -0700 Subject: 48 Volt Solar Boost 50 [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.622744447-951758591-966289315@topica.com> Travis, According to Rick at RVPP, the factory default setting will work with the typical modern module, with MPP around 17 volts. We are often putting these in existing systems, with mixed modules, old modules, Quad-Lams, and Tri-Lams, so we usually have reason to tweak. For awhile my home system was based on mud Quad-Lams, which had a 53V VOC (24V nominal). I set MPPT all the way up and still could have gone farther. I was getting winter input-output display boosts of 50%--of course, 50% more mud is still mud, and I replaced the array. The key is that there's only one setting on the RV50, so you end up with a "happy medium" with mixed array outputs. Occasionally we will bring in part of an array on the old controller, figuring more total output with no boost on unmatched modules. I did that recently with an SB2000 when one module was a 33-cell Arco M75. Client had undersized array wire anyway, so we used it for the M75 and ran new wire for the rest. Rick at RVPP knows his theory, his code, and his wrenching, and has been accessible to us. He also sez he's trying to keep his product away from the internet and HP discounter scum, to give us a fighting chance at skilled design. Re the same shunt: Yes. And by the way, two Tri-Mets can use the same shunt too, according to Ralph Heise. Makes sense to me. Enjoy the Sun! Allan @ Positive Energy -----Original Message----- From: Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Date: Monday, August 14, 2000 1:00 PM Subject: Re: 48 Volt Solar Boost 50 [RE-wrenches] >Allan, > >How much more effective is this than just using the factory settings? As I >read it the unit is ready to go for the "average" 75 module? Can you use >the same shunt as the Tri-Metric if you have one in the system? > >Travis Creswell >---------- >>From: allan >>To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >>Subject: Re: 48 Volt Solar Boost 50 [RE-wrenches] >>Date: Mon, Aug 7, 2000, 6:05 PM >> > >>Our biggest headache is difficult initial setup. It takes a separate 12V >>battery temp'ed in to set up the MPPT boost, as batteries must be full or >>nearly so to set finish voltage from a meter. We use an old 12V 35A gel >>cell for this. Of course, setting MPPT boost is best on a low battery...So >>sometimes it's a guess. Test points a la C40 would be nice. > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Mon Aug 14 18:50:55 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 15:50:55 -0700 Subject: MIXED PANEL ARRAY'S [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.108834561-951758591-966293455@topica.com> Steve, I was wondering about that and its good to hear it confirmed. I still really like the idea if being able to run the array @ 24 volts and the batteries @ 12. I was observing this array producing over 5 amps very early in the morning. Factory instructions or not the inspectors go by code which goes by the rating on the back of the panels which I have never observed to allow more than one module after you apply the 1.56 NEC required de-rate. My memory says that we did finally determine that you can't parallel modules. It's sort of a mute point anyway as the only mass produced combiner box on the market doesn't appear to protect the other sub array's from SSC. Travis Creswell ---------- >From: "Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar" >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Subject: Re: MIXED PANEL ARRAY'S [RE-wrenches] >Date: Mon, Aug 14, 2000, 4:22 PM > > This is not significant >when not converting voltage, just loses the boost function, but in 24 to 12 >you actually get less power out to battery than in from array at low amp >levels. >I thought the Siemens instruction sheet limit on not paralleling modules was )discussed earlier on this group and decided the instructions were obsolete, >per the factory, and it indeed was permissible to parallel two modules??? ?? - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From global at sover.net Mon Aug 14 20:11:55 2000 From: global at sover.net (Jeffrey Wolfe, Global Resources) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 17:11:55 -0700 Subject: MIXED PANEL ARRAY'S [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.552710826-951758591-966298315@topica.com> I'm going to be testing one of these MPPT's from Solar Converters again. While I like their other stuff, I tried using their high power MPPT units last year. Designed for 48 to 200 V in, 48 V out, 60 Amps. I burned up 7 of them, working with Dan Pringle all along to try to figure out the problem, to no avail. Had to get on a three story barn roof in December to rewire the array to 48 V. Threw in a couple of C-40s (slightly over limit at 42 Amps) and the system has worked fine. Dan says he "found there was a bad batch". But I would not consider them "proven" yet. So I'll try one at home this time. Jeff Jeffery D. Wolfe, P.E. Global Resource Options, LLP A Woman-Owned Vermont Limited Liability Partnership 4 Kibling Hill Road P.O. Box 51 Strafford, VT 05072 802/765-4632 802/765-9983 (Fax) global at sover.net www.globalresourceoptions.com You might also look at the products from Solar Converters. Best Don Loweburg - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From allan at positivenergy.com Mon Aug 14 21:25:16 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 18:25:16 -0700 Subject: MIXED PANEL ARRAY'S [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.869365910-212058698-966302716@topica.com> Re Pringle's stuff, I have learned to wait awhile before using any new product of his, to let others face what Jeffrey Wolfe described. He seems to get it right after a few revisions. I got burned three years ago on a few of his earliest MPPT units. I ordered his first 48V unit, I believe, but got cold feet after two 24V units failed on another job, and sent it back. Probably was a good call. Once the bugs are out, it's good stuff--no problems with his up/down converters or LCBs; lots of early trouble with his SunRise pump controllers and converters, but none recently. Allan @ Positive Energy -----Original Message----- From: Jeffrey Wolfe, Global Resources To: 'RE-wrenches at topica.com' Date: Monday, August 14, 2000 6:16 PM Subject: RE: MIXED PANEL ARRAY'S [RE-wrenches] >I'm going to be testing one of these MPPT's from Solar Converters again. >While I like their other stuff, I tried using their high power MPPT units >last year. Designed for 48 to 200 V in, 48 V out, 60 Amps. I burned up 7 of >them, working with Dan Pringle all along to try to figure out the problem, >to no avail. Had to get on a three story barn roof in December to rewire >the array to 48 V. Threw in a couple of C-40s (slightly over limit at 42 >Amps) and the system has worked fine. > >Dan says he "found there was a bad batch". But I would not consider them >"proven" yet. So I'll try one at home this time. > >Jeff > >Jeffery D. Wolfe, P.E. >Global Resource Options, LLP >A Woman-Owned Vermont Limited Liability Partnership >4 Kibling Hill Road >P.O. Box 51 >Strafford, VT 05072 >802/765-4632 >802/765-9983 (Fax) >global at sover.net >www.globalresourceoptions.com > > >You might also look at the products from Solar Converters. >Best >Don Loweburg > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solar at eagle-access.net Mon Aug 14 22:40:43 2000 From: solar at eagle-access.net (Drake Chamberlin, Quicksilver Electrical) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 19:40:43 -0700 Subject: MIXED PANEL ARRAY'S [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1834749521-951758591-966285082@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1503755941-212058698-966288146@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1976656472-951758591-966307243@topica.com> Hi Steve, You are right, it is permissible to parallel modules. The limiting factor for 12 volt systems seems to be the wire size that will fit in the junction boxes. No protection is required between modules in parallel. In systems where modules are in series, the code permits "supplementary overcurrent devices," which may be required by the manufacturer or UL. Here is the quote on module arrangement from the NEC, copied from the NEC on CD Rom. "690-4. Installation (c) Module Connection Arrangement. The connections to a module or panel shall be arranged so that removal of a module or panel from a photovoltaic source circuit does not interrupt a grounded conductor to another photovoltaic source circuit. Sets of modules interconnected as systems rated at 50 volts or less, with or without blocking diodes, and having a single overcurrent device shall be considered as a single-source circuit. Supplementary overcurrent devices used for the exclusive protection of the photovoltaic modules are not considered as overcurrent devices for the purpose of this section. Series sets may be isolated from each other by fuses to prevent backed. So far as I can tell, there is no backed protection required for systems rated under 50 volts in which no modules are in series. If Travis' installation is subject to code enforcement, I think the main issue could be the Solar Boost 50. Although my experience with the device is very positive, I haven't heard that it has received approval yet. Drake "Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar" wrote: > TC: > Yes observed and discussed with RV power. The solarboost 50 will use a bit > of power especially in the voltage conversion mode and it stops converting > voltage and stops boosting and just passes straight through at low power > levels in the area of 3 amps plus or minus one. This is not significant > when not converting voltage, just loses the boost function, but in 24 to 12 > you actually get less power out to battery than in from array at low amp > levels. If you have a smaller array, like well under the capacity of the > Boost 50, then it will spend more time below the conversion and boost > threshold than a larger array. at some point the boost unit is not going to > be effective. I fear that effect combined with the amorphous lower PPP will > cause you to gain little from the extra cost of the boost. However if > future higher power array is expected, then only the amorphous part is to be > considered. > > I thought the Siemens instruction sheet limit on not paralleling modules was > discussed earlier on this group and decided the instructions were obsolete, > per the factory, and it indeed was permissible to parallel two modules??? ?? > > Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com > Backwoods Solar Electric Systems > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar > To: > Sent: Monday, August 14, 2000 1:31 PM > Subject: Re: MIXED PANEL ARRAY'S [RE-wrenches] > > > Steve > > > > I'm not sure what you are saying. Is this something you have seen as I > > don't think it would matter how large the array other than the the Solar > > Boost 50 itself would represent a larger draw on a smaller array. The > main > > reason I am considering going to 24 volts is to leave as much room in the > > future for expansion. They are talking about wanting to be able to charge > to > > Campground host's RV batteries as well. Also, to meet code you can never > > parallel modules so I have to pull wires for all 6 modules to the combiner > > box. I just as soon pull 3 runs instead of 6 runs. > > > > As I understand MPPT there is not much potential for boosting during warm > > weather and as batteries get fully charged. The colder the weather the > > higher the panels voltage gets this the more potential for boost. It > makes > > sense that the UniSolar amorphous products don't have much application for > > MPPT as their MPP is pretty low to begin with. > > > > Thanks > > Travis Creswell > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solar at eagle-access.net Mon Aug 14 22:48:23 2000 From: solar at eagle-access.net (Drake Chamberlin, Quicksilver Electrical) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 19:48:23 -0700 Subject: MIXED PANEL ARRAY'S [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1834749521-951758591-966285082@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1503755941-212058698-966288146@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1976656472-951758591-966307243@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.62815842-212058698-966307703@topica.com> My spell checker changed back feed to backed. Here is the paragraph on back feed corrected. Series sets may be isolated from each other by fuses to prevent back feed. So far as I can tell, there is no back feed protection required for systems rated under 50 volts in which no modules are in series. "Drake Chamberlin, Quicksilver Electrical" wrote: > Hi Steve, > > You are right, it is permissible to parallel modules. The limiting factor for > 12 volt systems seems to be the wire size that will fit in the junction boxes. > No protection is required between modules in parallel. In systems where modules > are in series, the code permits "supplementary overcurrent devices," which may > be required by the manufacturer or UL. > > Here is the quote on module arrangement from the NEC, copied from the NEC on CD > Rom. > > "690-4. Installation > > (c) Module Connection Arrangement. The connections to a module or panel shall be > arranged so that removal of a module or panel from a photovoltaic source circuit > does not interrupt a grounded conductor to another photovoltaic source circuit. > Sets of modules interconnected as systems rated at 50 volts or less, with or > without blocking diodes, and having a single overcurrent device shall be > considered as a single-source circuit. Supplementary overcurrent devices used > for the exclusive protection of the photovoltaic modules are not considered as > overcurrent devices for the purpose of this section. > > Series sets may be isolated from each other by fuses to prevent backed. So far > as I can tell, there is no backed protection required for systems rated under 50 > volts in which no modules are in series. > > If Travis' installation is subject to code enforcement, I think the main issue > could be the Solar Boost 50. Although my experience with the device is very > positive, I haven't heard that it has received approval yet. > > Drake > > "Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar" wrote: > > > TC: > > Yes observed and discussed with RV power. The solarboost 50 will use a bit > > of power especially in the voltage conversion mode and it stops converting > > voltage and stops boosting and just passes straight through at low power > > levels in the area of 3 amps plus or minus one. This is not significant > > when not converting voltage, just loses the boost function, but in 24 to 12 > > you actually get less power out to battery than in from array at low amp > > levels. If you have a smaller array, like well under the capacity of the > > Boost 50, then it will spend more time below the conversion and boost > > threshold than a larger array. at some point the boost unit is not going to > > be effective. I fear that effect combined with the amorphous lower PPP will > > cause you to gain little from the extra cost of the boost. However if > > future higher power array is expected, then only the amorphous part is to be > > considered. > > > > I thought the Siemens instruction sheet limit on not paralleling modules was > > discussed earlier on this group and decided the instructions were obsolete, > > per the factory, and it indeed was permissible to parallel two modules??? ?? > > > > Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com > > Backwoods Solar Electric Systems > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar > > To: > > Sent: Monday, August 14, 2000 1:31 PM > > Subject: Re: MIXED PANEL ARRAY'S [RE-wrenches] > > > > > Steve > > > > > > I'm not sure what you are saying. Is this something you have seen as I > > > don't think it would matter how large the array other than the the Solar > > > Boost 50 itself would represent a larger draw on a smaller array. The > > main > > > reason I am considering going to 24 volts is to leave as much room in the > > > future for expansion. They are talking about wanting to be able to charge > > to > > > Campground host's RV batteries as well. Also, to meet code you can never > > > parallel modules so I have to pull wires for all 6 modules to the combiner > > > box. I just as soon pull 3 runs instead of 6 runs. > > > > > > As I understand MPPT there is not much potential for boosting during warm > > > weather and as batteries get fully charged. The colder the weather the > > > higher the panels voltage gets this the more potential for boost. It > > makes > > > sense that the UniSolar amorphous products don't have much application for > > > MPPT as their MPP is pretty low to begin with. > > > > > > Thanks > > > Travis Creswell > > > > - - - - - - - > > To send a message: > > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > > > The archive of previous messages: > > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > www.homepower.com > > > > For info contact list moderator by email: > > michael.welch at homepower.com > > ___________________________________________________________ > > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solarman4 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 15 10:08:44 2000 From: solarman4 at yahoo.com (Mark Downing) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 07:08:44 -0700 Subject: MIXED PANEL ARRAY'S [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1700682377-951758591-966348524@topica.com> A problem I have had with the Solar Converters charge controlls has been with the AGC fuse holders on the PC board. When operating anywhere near the controller's rated current, the fuse gets so hot that I have had the soldered ends of the fuses desolder themselves. Since I have a breaker on the input and output of the controller, I had him replace the unneeded fuse holder with a jumper. He claimed no one else had reported this problem. Has anyone else seen these units actually take power from the battery under some light level and battery state of charge conditions? I believe I have seen about a 1/2 amp drain. I haven't had his digital meter add ons perform to my satisfaction yet. They either won't stay calibrated, or aren't accurate over the voltage range. The biggest problem has been that the readings vary greatly with ambient temperature. When most of my installations are in unheated buildings, this is not good. Mark Downing Hurshtown Alternative Power --- "Jeffrey Wolfe, Global Resources" wrote: > I'm going to be testing one of these MPPT's from > Solar Converters again. > While I like their other stuff, I tried using their > high power MPPT units > last year. Designed for 48 to 200 V in, 48 V out, 60 > Amps. I burned up 7 of > them, working with Dan Pringle all along to try to > figure out the problem, > to no avail. Had to get on a three story barn roof > in December to rewire > the array to 48 V. Threw in a couple of C-40s > (slightly over limit at 42 > Amps) and the system has worked fine. > > Dan says he "found there was a bad batch". But I > would not consider them > "proven" yet. So I'll try one at home this time. > > Jeff > > Jeffery D. Wolfe, P.E. > Global Resource Options, LLP > A Woman-Owned Vermont Limited Liability Partnership > 4 Kibling Hill Road > P.O. Box 51 > Strafford, VT 05072 > 802/765-4632 > 802/765-9983 (Fax) > global at sover.net > www.globalresourceoptions.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail ��� Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Tue Aug 15 13:07:46 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 10:07:46 -0700 Subject: MIXED PANEL ARRAY'S [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.108834561-951758591-966293455@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.385832431-951758591-966359266@topica.com> Here is one of those. I am no longer installing and code is not real strict though definitely exists here, so you may have a better view on this than I. Here is the start of that discussion, and it carries on a few letters if you have the archive access: Hey Wrenches, There has been a change in the wording of the 99 Code that might make array wiring easier. The use of a combiner box might become a rare thing on domestic PV systems. Let me know if you think this is correct. In the old code it appeared that every series set of modules needed to have its output run directly to an overcurrent device in a combiner box. Connections could not be made in another module's junction box, if removal of that module would disrupt the "grounded conductor" of another set. This is how it has often been interpreted in Colorado anyway. With this method, a rack of 8 modules wired for 24 volts requires four flexible conduit "whips" coming down to a combiner box with four fuses. There are often positive and negative busbars to which the system conductors are connected. Below is the old wording. **************************************************************************** ********************* 690-4(c) 1996 NEC (c) Module Connection Arrangement. The connections to a module or panel shall be so arranged that removal of a module or panel from a photovoltaic source circuit does not interrupt a grounded conductor to another photovoltaic source circuit. **************************************************************************** ******************** The new code goes into detail about the meaning of "source circuit." It now appears that a source circuit is any configuration of modules rated at 50 volts or less, terminating in a single over current device. Here is the section. **************************************************************************** ****************** 690-4(c) 1999 NEC (c) Module Connection Arrangement. The connections to a module or panel shall be arranged so that removal of a module or panel from a photovoltaic source circuit does not interrupt a grounded conductor to another photovoltaic source circuit. Sets of modules interconnected as systems rated at 50 volts or less, with or without blocking diodes, and having a single overcurrent device shall be considered as a single-source circuit. Supplementary overcurrent devices used for the exclusive protection of the photovoltaic modules are not considered as overcurrent devices for the purpose of this section. **************************************************************************** *************** The first sentence of the new code reads exactly like the old. To simplify the changes, we can eliminate it. The changed part has a lot of modifying wording. Although necessary to consider, we can eliminate the modifiers for present purposes. The reduced statement boils down to: Sets of modules interconnected as systems rated at 50 volts or less having a single overcurrent device shall be considered as a single-source circuit. This would seem to imply that a rack of 8 modules wired in a 24 volt series-parallel configuration is a single source circuit. It would therefore need only one whip going to a disconnect, rather than 4 whips connecting to a combiner box. The series sets apparently may be paralleled in the module junction boxes now. If true, this will not only save hundreds of dollars in materials and labor on large systems, it will also make arrays look a lot cleaner. Here is an example of how an array might be designed with the new code. Eight Siemens SP 75s wired in series-parallel for 24 volts, have a short circuit rating of 19.2 amps (4.8 X 4) . Multiply that times 1.25 twice (to comply with code) and you get 30 amps. A pair of number 10 THWN-2 wires should satisfy any inspector. (* Note: The rating of THWN-2 comes on many THHN conductors). So two #10 AWG wires can be used instead of eight. One conduit is needed instead of four. One overcurrent device is needed instead of four. The wiring can be run directly to a fused disconnect, rather than to a combiner box first. A 16 module, 24 volt array can have two whips run to a 2 pole fused disconnect. Due to the language, it looks hopeful that this rule will also apply to 48 volt systems. The code now seems to say that photovoltaic source circuits are "Sets of modules interconnected as systems rated at 50 volts or less." The word "rated" seems to imply nominal voltage rather than the actual measured, operating voltage. Wrenches, let us know if we are on track. Drake Chamberlin Don Wallingford Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems A catalog business on a mountain 2 miles from utility lines, powered entirely by our catalog products. IF UTILITY POWER IS 1/2 MILE OR MORE FROM YOUR SITE, get our free 160 page solar-electric Planning Guide/Catalog. (Your postal address required - Our list is never given or sold). - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Tue Aug 15 17:57:45 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 14:57:45 -0700 Subject: MIXED PANEL ARRAY'S [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1562990724-212058698-966376665@topica.com> Drake, Thanks for the heads up. I'd forgotten the Solar Boost 50 wasn't UL approved yet. next issue.. (we just can't seem to quit beating this dead horse) >Eight Siemens SP 75s wired in series-parallel for 24 volts, have a short >circuit rating of 19.2 amps (4.8 X 4) . Multiply that times 1.25 twice (to >comply with code) and you get 30 amps. A pair of number 10 THWN-2 wires >should satisfy any inspector. (* Note: The rating of THWN-2 comes on many >THHN conductors). I'm going to hold my ground on this series/parallel issue. The wording of code is nice but lets do the math as code specifies and observe how the manufacturers rate their panels. I will swallow a big old bucket if pride if you guys can prove me wrong on the below math and code interpretation! I have rarely worked with modules that have "max series fuse" ratings that would allow more than one module in parallel. Also, after you de rate the wire by 1.56 and allow for temperature and conduit fill you are looking at #10 THHN having a max ampacity of 11.9 amps. Double check my math but here is how I do it.. (all according to 99 code) Using table 310-16 #10 THHN/THWN-2 starts out with an ampacity of 40 amps. First apply the 1.56 de rate which comes from 690-8 (a)(1) and 690-8 (b) 40/1.56 = 25.64 amps Now apply the temperature de rate factor of .58 for temps of 61c-70c from the bottom of 310-16. 25.64 x .58 = 14.87 amps Now lets apply the conduit fill factor (table 310-15 (b)(2)(a)) de rate assuming we have 2 source (sub array) circuits for a total of 4 wires and that is .8. 14.87 x .8 = 11.9 amps is the max current you can put through #10 THHN being used as a source circuit for solar panels. Again I am going back to the "Max series fuse rating" on the back of the module. This must be more than the short circuit current of the number of modules you want to parallel. The typical modules rating is almost always less than Isc x 2 which means that you can't parallel even two of those modules. The exception that I know of is Solarex which often has max series fuse ratings of 15 or 20 amps as I remember. Even when you can parallel code only allows 11.9 amps on #10 wire anyway. Who wants to step up to number #8 copper in solar panel J-Boxes. Regardless of the details of code I think we can agree that there are troubleshooting and performance benefits to not paralleling modules. Lets see if we get some agreement on this. I'd like to this to be on go onto grounding! Won't that be fun. Travis Creswell - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solarjon at netshel.net Tue Aug 15 18:33:57 2000 From: solarjon at netshel.net (Jonathan Hill) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 15:33:57 -0700 Subject: MIXED PANEL ARRAY'S [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1834749521-951758591-966285082@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1834749521-951758591-966285082@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1155613796-212058698-966378837@topica.com> Does anyone have any experience using the Solar Boost 50 with a net metering system? Jon Hill >Steve > >I'm not sure what you are saying. Is this something you have seen as I >don't think it would matter how large the array other than the the Solar >Boost 50 itself would represent a larger draw on a smaller array. The main >reason I am considering going to 24 volts is to leave as much room in the >future for expansion. They are talking about wanting to be able to charge to >Campground host's RV batteries as well. Also, to meet code you can never >parallel modules so I have to pull wires for all 6 modules to the combiner >box. I just as soon pull 3 runs instead of 6 runs. > >As I understand MPPT there is not much potential for boosting during warm >weather and as batteries get fully charged. The colder the weather the >higher the panels voltage gets this the more potential for boost. It makes >sense that the UniSolar amorphous products don't have much application for >MPPT as their MPP is pretty low to begin with. > >Thanks >Travis Creswell >---------- > >From: "Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar" > >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > >Subject: Re: MIXED PANEL ARRAY'S [RE-wrenches] > >Date: Mon, Aug 14, 2000, 2:57 PM > > > > >Another consideration is that the boost 50 doing the conversion does > >not boost or even double when module power is down at 3 or 4 amp level as in > >morning or evening or with a smaller array > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics ----------------- Sierra Solar Systems 109-N Argall Way Nevada City, CA 95959 tech info and foreign orders: (530) 265-8441 order line: (800) 51-SOLAR (US only) FAX: (530) 265-6151 e-mail: world wide web: Because of the high volume of e-mail to which I respond, please leave _all_ of the previous message (unless it's unbearable) in your reply so I can better remember your original message. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From allan at positivenergy.com Tue Aug 15 20:55:49 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 17:55:49 -0700 Subject: MIXED PANEL ARRAY'S [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.845606424-212058698-966387349@topica.com> Drake and all, We have been consistently using 10 AWG USE-2 to our combiner boxes, without any conduit, and have been happy with it. It sidesteps the above issue, so I will hold off and listen to others' responses on the NEC interpretation of your issue re PV input wiring. The related point I want to make is that the code doesn't require a disconnect at the array. Disconnects should be grouped together, and in fact a disconnect at the array can be a safety hazard, as terminals on both sides could be energized in an open position. I went through this with the NM Head State Inspector on a job, and got John Wiles' support, and he went with our argument. Wiles says the 2002 NEC will probably have a revision to this effect. Allan at Positive Energy -----Original Message----- From: Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Date: Tuesday, August 15, 2000 11:12 AM Subject: Re: MIXED PANEL ARRAY'S [RE-wrenches] >Here is one of those. I am no longer installing and code is not real strict >though definitely exists here, so you may have a better view on this than I. >Here is the start of that discussion, and it carries on a few letters if you >have the archive access: > >Hey Wrenches, > >There has been a change in the wording of the 99 Code that might make array >wiring easier. The use of a combiner box might become a rare thing on >domestic PV systems. Let me know if you think this is correct. > >In the old code it appeared that every series set of modules needed to have >its output run directly to an overcurrent device in a combiner box. >Connections could not be made in another module's junction box, if removal >of that module would disrupt the "grounded conductor" of another set. > >This is how it has often been interpreted in Colorado anyway. With this >method, a rack of 8 modules wired for 24 volts requires four flexible >conduit "whips" coming down to a combiner box with four fuses. There are >often positive and negative busbars to which the system conductors are >connected. Below is the old wording. > >*************************************************************************** * >********************* >690-4(c) 1996 NEC > > (c) Module Connection Arrangement. The connections to a module or panel >shall be so arranged that removal of a module or panel from a photovoltaic >source circuit does not interrupt a grounded conductor to another >photovoltaic source circuit. > >*************************************************************************** * >******************** >The new code goes into detail about the meaning of "source circuit." It now >appears that a source circuit is any configuration of modules rated at 50 >volts or less, terminating in a single over current device. Here is the >section. > >*************************************************************************** * >****************** > >690-4(c) 1999 NEC > >(c) Module Connection Arrangement. The connections to a module or panel >shall be arranged so that removal of a module or panel from a photovoltaic >source circuit does not interrupt a grounded conductor to another >photovoltaic source circuit. Sets of modules interconnected as systems rated >at 50 volts or less, with or without blocking diodes, and having a single >overcurrent device shall be considered as a single-source circuit. >Supplementary overcurrent devices used for the exclusive protection of the >photovoltaic modules are not considered as overcurrent devices for the >purpose of this section. > >*************************************************************************** * >*************** > >The first sentence of the new code reads exactly like the old. To simplify >the changes, we can eliminate it. The changed part has a lot of modifying >wording. Although necessary to consider, we can eliminate the modifiers for >present purposes. The reduced statement boils down to: > >Sets of modules interconnected as systems rated at 50 volts or less having a >single overcurrent device shall be considered as a single-source circuit. > >This would seem to imply that a rack of 8 modules wired in a 24 volt >series-parallel configuration is a single source circuit. It would >therefore need only one whip going to a disconnect, rather than 4 whips >connecting to a combiner box. > >The series sets apparently may be paralleled in the module junction boxes >now. If true, this will not only save hundreds of dollars in materials and >labor on large systems, it will also make arrays look a lot cleaner. > >Here is an example of how an array might be designed with the new code. > >Eight Siemens SP 75s wired in series-parallel for 24 volts, have a short >circuit rating of 19.2 amps (4.8 X 4) . Multiply that times 1.25 twice (to >comply with code) and you get 30 amps. A pair of number 10 THWN-2 wires >should satisfy any inspector. (* Note: The rating of THWN-2 comes on many >THHN conductors). > >So two #10 AWG wires can be used instead of eight. One conduit is needed >instead of four. One overcurrent device is needed instead of four. The >wiring can be run directly to a fused disconnect, rather than to a combiner >box first. A 16 module, 24 volt array can have two whips run to a 2 pole >fused disconnect. > >Due to the language, it looks hopeful that this rule will also apply to 48 >volt systems. The code now seems to say that photovoltaic source circuits >are "Sets of modules interconnected as systems rated at 50 volts or less." >The word "rated" seems to imply nominal voltage rather than the actual >measured, operating voltage. > >Wrenches, let us know if we are on track. > > Drake >Chamberlin > > Don >Wallingford > >Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com >Backwoods Solar Electric Systems >A catalog business on a mountain >2 miles from utility lines, >powered entirely by our catalog products. >IF UTILITY POWER IS 1/2 MILE OR MORE FROM YOUR SITE, >get our free 160 page solar-electric Planning Guide/Catalog. >(Your postal address required - Our list is never given or sold). > > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunwise at win.bright.net Tue Aug 15 22:04:48 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (Kurt Nelson, SunWise) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 19:04:48 -0700 Subject: MIXED PANEL ARRAY'S [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.746368041-951758591-966391488@topica.com> Greetings Wrenches, We have a number of different topics happening under the "Mixed Panels Array" subject heading. I am "responding" to Steve's last addition to the topic in part to thank him for his most exellent and dedicated contributions to this and other topics. I also wanted to bring some of this discussion back to arrays composed of mixed and varied panels. Down at the "Shop", I have an array composed of a some Arco 16-2000 33 cell panels, as well as a couple 36 cell panels. This year, I added an SP-75 to the system that is mounted on the inside of the door in such a fashion that I swing it out and flip it up when I open the shop. I then have some meters (volts/amps) and a couple switches that allows the visiting folks to play with Solar by switching through some loads (water pump and such) or back to the main shop/battery system to learn about solar. I have noticed that when the new Siemens panel is on the system, and the charge regulator (down-stream) regulates, the amp meter that is on the SP75 indicates about one amp output. Is this feeding back into the 33 cell panels? Initially I decided this was the case, but is this a factor of higher (Voc) voltage? If any such panel (12VDC nom. into 12VDC battery) is connected directly to a battery, we see something in the way of 35mA out of the array at night. Does the PV start to see increased reverse current flow when subjected to a higher voltage than the panel's rated voltage or even PPP voltage? Why would I be seeing something approaching 20 watts going back into this little 33 cell array when a twelve volt battery doesn't put but a trickle back? Thanks for your responses, Kurt Nelson - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From global at sover.net Tue Aug 15 22:23:05 2000 From: global at sover.net (Jeffrey Wolfe, Global Resources) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 19:23:05 -0700 Subject: MIXED PANEL ARRAY'S [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1172426629-212058698-966392585@topica.com> Drake, Who wants to step up to number #8 copper in solar panel J-Boxes. We use #8 USE-2 (single conductor) in Astropower J/B's all the time. It's not too bad to bend, and THWN is even easier if you're using conduit. Astropower terminals are made to accept up to #8, I know some of the others are not, which I think is ludicrious. I usually err on the side of bigger wires. For small cost up front, it gives us the chance to easily fix a world of messups that can happen, and it adapts well to future needs, almopst whatever they may be. Jeff Jeffery D. Wolfe, P.E. Global Resource Options, LLP A Woman-Owned Vermont Limited Liability Partnership 4 Kibling Hill Road P.O. Box 51 Strafford, VT 05072 802/765-4632 802/765-9983 (Fax) global at sover.net www.globalresourceoptions.com - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From global at sover.net Tue Aug 15 22:28:30 2000 From: global at sover.net (Jeffrey Wolfe, Global Resources) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 19:28:30 -0700 Subject: Solar Boost in Net Metering [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.944906565-212058698-966392910@topica.com> Jon, Both the Solar Boost that we use on our mobile setup and the Fire Wind and Rain that we are destroying in our basement are hooked up to net meter. The only tricky part is just like on the C-40's or others. Make sure the controller does not go into shutoff due to voltage. I was told by Trace to keep the voltage differential (between the Inverter and the charge controller) at .5V for 12V system, 1V for a 24V system and 1.5V for a 48 V system, due to "measurement errors" (i.e. to make up for Trace's bad meters). The power boost and the voltage conversion have nothing to do with the net metering otherwise. Of course, we do not see the larger boost, since we are operating at "battery full" levels, but we are still seeing an (unscientifically measured) approximately 10 - 15% boost with the SB50. (No boost, probably deficiet, with the FWR) Jeff Jeffery D. Wolfe, P.E. Global Resource Options, LLP A Woman-Owned Vermont Limited Liability Partnership 4 Kibling Hill Road P.O. Box 51 Strafford, VT 05072 802/765-4632 802/765-9983 (Fax) global at sover.net www.globalresourceoptions.com ---------- From: Jonathan Hill[SMTP:solarjon at netshel.net] Reply To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2000 6:33 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Re: MIXED PANEL ARRAY'S [RE-wrenches] Does anyone have any experience using the Solar Boost 50 with a net metering system? Jon Hill >Steve > >I'm not sure what you are saying. Is this something you have seen as I >don't think it would matter how large the array other than the the Solar >Boost 50 itself would represent a larger draw on a smaller array. The main >reason I am considering going to 24 volts is to leave as much room in the >future for expansion. They are talking about wanting to be able to charge to >Campground host's RV batteries as well. Also, to meet code you can never >parallel modules so I have to pull wires for all 6 modules to the combiner >box. I just as soon pull 3 runs instead of 6 runs. > >As I understand MPPT there is not much potential for boosting during warm >weather and as batteries get fully charged. The colder the weather the >higher the panels voltage gets this the more potential for boost. It makes >sense that the UniSolar amorphous products don't have much application for >MPPT as their MPP is pretty low to begin with. > >Thanks >Travis Creswell >---------- > >From: "Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar" > >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > >Subject: Re: MIXED PANEL ARRAY'S [RE-wrenches] > >Date: Mon, Aug 14, 2000, 2:57 PM > > > > >Another consideration is that the boost 50 doing the conversion does > >not boost or even double when module power is down at 3 or 4 amp level as in > >morning or evening or with a smaller array > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics ----------------- Sierra Solar Systems 109-N Argall Way Nevada City, CA 95959 tech info and foreign orders: (530) 265-8441 order line: (800) 51-SOLAR (US only) FAX: (530) 265-6151 e-mail: world wide web: Because of the high volume of e-mail to which I respond, please leave _all_ of the previous message (unless it's unbearable) in your reply so I can better remember your original message. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunpwr at jps.net Tue Aug 15 23:19:00 2000 From: sunpwr at jps.net (Chuck Heath, SunPower) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 20:19:00 -0700 Subject: Trace reply: Charger drops offline [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.89553141-951758591-966395940@topica.com> Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar, steve at backwoodssolar.com on 8/11 wrote: >he probably means the Trace inverter reports generator solid. That >inverter, once kicked out back to inverter function only reads its own >frequency. You have to check the error causes list to see if the gen has >gone out of freq or just use a separate meter. Its common to have the >gradually increasing battery charger load through a generator off freq and >drop off charge, whereupon the generator restores its rpm and the inverter >meter starts reading inverter frequency. You would have to watch it through >the whole cycle on gen frequency to catch the change starting if that is >what goes on. Steve is correct. I did not use the Fluke 87 for measurements, but I will do so next trip. The only Trace error message was after switching from AC-2 to AC-1, per Trace suggestions, when Ry 7 complained, and I switched to manually starting the Kohler instead of Ry 7, changing both the Trace and Kohler from the "auto" setting. Hope to deal with this tomorrow. Stay tuned. Cordially, Chuck _90° with 5% humidity, ah, so nice!_ - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunpwr at jps.net Tue Aug 15 23:19:01 2000 From: sunpwr at jps.net (Chuck Heath, SunPower) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 20:19:01 -0700 Subject: Tips: 4/0 cable crimps [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2041971762-951758591-966395941@topica.com> Awhile back, someone on the list asked for tips. Here's one for getting those 4,123 strands (?) of 4/0 welding cable into a ring terminal or compression fitting such as the DC 250 DCBB: Use a _single strand_ of #16 wire to wrap the 4/0 using your fingers and needle nose pliers _before_ removing the already cut ring of outer insulation. Wrap it right next to the insulation, where the cable is smallest. Then, carefully slide the tightened strand up toward the end of the 4/0 cable that tries to "bloom" as you remove the ring of cut insulation. Fold the twisted #16 end upward against the 4/0 cable and insert. Voilá! Cordially, Chuck _it works for me_ Heath "Plugging into Sunshine since 1989" Big Oak Flat CA - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Wed Aug 16 09:18:48 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 06:18:48 -0700 Subject: Solar Boost in Net Metering [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1087741969-212058698-966431928@topica.com> Jon, That's a good point about the batteries being full reducing the benefit of MPPT in net metering. Here is an interesting idea. What about using eleven 2 volt cells in a 24 volt system? This would bring the system voltage down increasing the benefits of MPPT. You could adjust the set points on the SW to compensate for the missing 2 volts and still have batteries fully charged waiting for a power outage. I didn't think it out much, but I you still get the idea. I'd like to set up a something on my array side (vs. the common - of the system) and use it to count the array's amp hour production. A Tri-Metric or similar would be nice and I believe it would be more accurate than the C40 DVM and for the most part, pretty inexpensive. What would really be nice would be something that would take voltage into account and give daily watt hours. Yes, you could do this with a data logger but it will require combining two channels and would a lot more expensive than a customer would want to pay. It seems that this would be a great product in this day of net metering systems gaining popularity. Thanks Travis ---------- >From: "Jeffrey Wolfe, Global Resources" >To: "'RE-wrenches at topica.com'" >Subject: RE: Solar Boost in Net Metering [RE-wrenches] >Date: Tue, Aug 15, 2000, 9:28 PM > >Jon, > >Both the Solar Boost that we use on our mobile setup and the Fire Wind and >Rain that we are destroying in our basement are hooked up to net meter. The >only tricky part is just like on the C-40's or others. Make sure the >controller does not go into shutoff due to voltage. I was told by Trace to >keep the voltage differential (between the Inverter and the charge >controller) at .5V for 12V system, 1V for a 24V system and 1.5V for a 48 V >system, due to "measurement errors" (i.e. to make up for Trace's bad >meters). > >The power boost and the voltage conversion have nothing to do with the net >metering otherwise. Of course, we do not see the larger boost, since we are >operating at "battery full" levels, but we are still seeing an >(unscientifically measured) approximately 10 - 15% boost with the SB50. (No >boost, probably deficiet, with the FWR) > >Jeff > >Jeffery D. Wolfe, P.E. >Global Resource Options, LLP >A Woman-Owned Vermont Limited Liability Partnership >4 Kibling Hill Road >P.O. Box 51 >Strafford, VT 05072 >802/765-4632 >802/765-9983 (Fax) >global at sover.net >www.globalresourceoptions.com - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solar at eagle-access.net Wed Aug 16 10:43:22 2000 From: solar at eagle-access.net (Drake Chamberlin, Quicksilver Electrical) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 07:43:22 -0700 Subject: MIXED PANEL ARRAY'S [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1562990724-212058698-966376665@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1307570405-951758591-966437002@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 8964 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay at asis.com Wed Aug 16 11:25:36 2000 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 08:25:36 -0700 Subject: MIXED PANEL ARRAY'S [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.108834561-951758591-966293455@topica.com> <0.1300002502.385832431-951758591-966359266@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1968516772-212058698-966439536@topica.com> Hi All, The other issue is that of the "series fuse" rating on each panel. From what I have figured out that is the main issue with how many panels you can parallel. For example the BP- 75 series fuse is like 7.5 amps: well its a 4.5 amp panel, no way to run 2 without exceding the amp rating. Other manufacuters ( Solarex is good this way) have up to 20 amp series fuse ratings, therefor you can string them together again as long as the wire is protected etc. Hope that helps somewhat. jay "Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar" wrote: > Here is one of those. I am no longer installing and code is not real strict > though definitely exists here, so you may have a better view on this than I. > Here is the start of that discussion, and it carries on a few letters if you > have the archive access: > > Hey Wrenches, > > There has been a change in the wording of the 99 Code that might make array > wiring easier. The use of a combiner box might become a rare thing on > domestic PV systems. Let me know if you think this is correct. > > In the old code it appeared that every series set of modules needed to have > its output run directly to an overcurrent device in a combiner box. > Connections could not be made in another module's junction box, if removal > of that module would disrupt the "grounded conductor" of another set. > > This is how it has often been interpreted in Colorado anyway. With this > method, a rack of 8 modules wired for 24 volts requires four flexible > conduit "whips" coming down to a combiner box with four fuses. There are > often positive and negative busbars to which the system conductors are > connected. Below is the old wording. > > **************************************************************************** > ********************* > 690-4(c) 1996 NEC > > (c) Module Connection Arrangement. The connections to a module or panel > shall be so arranged that removal of a module or panel from a photovoltaic > source circuit does not interrupt a grounded conductor to another > photovoltaic source circuit. > > **************************************************************************** > ******************** > The new code goes into detail about the meaning of "source circuit." It now > appears that a source circuit is any configuration of modules rated at 50 > volts or less, terminating in a single over current device. Here is the > section. > > **************************************************************************** > ****************** > > 690-4(c) 1999 NEC > > (c) Module Connection Arrangement. The connections to a module or panel > shall be arranged so that removal of a module or panel from a photovoltaic > source circuit does not interrupt a grounded conductor to another > photovoltaic source circuit. Sets of modules interconnected as systems rated > at 50 volts or less, with or without blocking diodes, and having a single > overcurrent device shall be considered as a single-source circuit. > Supplementary overcurrent devices used for the exclusive protection of the > photovoltaic modules are not considered as overcurrent devices for the > purpose of this section. > > **************************************************************************** > *************** > > The first sentence of the new code reads exactly like the old. To simplify > the changes, we can eliminate it. The changed part has a lot of modifying > wording. Although necessary to consider, we can eliminate the modifiers for > present purposes. The reduced statement boils down to: > > Sets of modules interconnected as systems rated at 50 volts or less having a > single overcurrent device shall be considered as a single-source circuit. > > This would seem to imply that a rack of 8 modules wired in a 24 volt > series-parallel configuration is a single source circuit. It would > therefore need only one whip going to a disconnect, rather than 4 whips > connecting to a combiner box. > > The series sets apparently may be paralleled in the module junction boxes > now. If true, this will not only save hundreds of dollars in materials and > labor on large systems, it will also make arrays look a lot cleaner. > > Here is an example of how an array might be designed with the new code. > > Eight Siemens SP 75s wired in series-parallel for 24 volts, have a short > circuit rating of 19.2 amps (4.8 X 4) . Multiply that times 1.25 twice (to > comply with code) and you get 30 amps. A pair of number 10 THWN-2 wires > should satisfy any inspector. (* Note: The rating of THWN-2 comes on many > THHN conductors). > > So two #10 AWG wires can be used instead of eight. One conduit is needed > instead of four. One overcurrent device is needed instead of four. The > wiring can be run directly to a fused disconnect, rather than to a combiner > box first. A 16 module, 24 volt array can have two whips run to a 2 pole > fused disconnect. > > Due to the language, it looks hopeful that this rule will also apply to 48 > volt systems. The code now seems to say that photovoltaic source circuits > are "Sets of modules interconnected as systems rated at 50 volts or less." > The word "rated" seems to imply nominal voltage rather than the actual > measured, operating voltage. > > Wrenches, let us know if we are on track. > > Drake > Chamberlin > > Don > Wallingford > > Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com > Backwoods Solar Electric Systems > A catalog business on a mountain > 2 miles from utility lines, > powered entirely by our catalog products. > IF UTILITY POWER IS 1/2 MILE OR MORE FROM YOUR SITE, > get our free 160 page solar-electric Planning Guide/Catalog. > (Your postal address required - Our list is never given or sold). > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Wed Aug 16 11:53:02 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 08:53:02 -0700 Subject: MIXED PANEL ARRAY'S [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.746368041-951758591-966391488@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.523084193-951758591-966441182@topica.com> I did a like test a few years ago with parallel connection of a 30 cell "self regulating" and a 36 cell panels. In normal charge, the battery holds both to a same operating voltage. When the series type controller disconnects the battery, these panels go to open circuit in parallel. I noted fairly high reverse flow and perceptibly higher temperature in the lower voltage panel. My conclusion was that a panel in sunlight has lower resistance to reverse flow than a panel at night, where reverse flow is actually very small. I did not further test by shading the panel and observing, or letting it cool to night temps. It could be related to the much higher daytime operating temperature, or to the fact that it was powered by sunlight and so forward biased at the same time the reverse voltage was applied from the higher voltage panel. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems ----- Original Message ----- From: Kurt Nelson, SunWise To: Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2000 7:04 PM Subject: Re: MIXED PANEL ARRAY'S [RE-wrenches] > Greetings Wrenches, > Down at the "Shop", I have an array composed of a some Arco 16-2000 33 cell > panels, as well as a couple 36 cell panels. This year, I added an SP-75 to > the system that is mounted on the inside of the door in such a fashion that > I swing it out and flip it up when I open the shop. I then have some meters > (volts/amps) and a couple switches that allows the visiting folks to play > with Solar by switching through some loads (water pump and such) or back to > the main shop/battery system to learn about solar. I have noticed that when > the new Siemens panel is on the system, and the charge regulator > (down-stream) regulates, the amp meter that is on the SP75 indicates about > one amp output. Is this feeding back into the 33 cell panels? Initially I > decided this was the case, but is this a factor of higher (Voc) voltage? If > any such panel (12VDC nom. into 12VDC battery) is connected directly to a > battery, we see something in the way of 35mA out of the array at night. > Does the PV start to see increased reverse current flow when subjected to a > higher voltage than the panel's rated voltage or even PPP voltage? Why > would I be seeing something approaching 20 watts going back into this little > 33 cell array when a twelve volt battery doesn't put but a trickle back? > > Thanks for your responses, > > Kurt Nelson > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From global at sover.net Wed Aug 16 15:20:29 2000 From: global at sover.net (Jeffrey Wolfe, Global Resources) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 12:20:29 -0700 Subject: Solar Boost in Net Metering [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.384214514-212058698-966453629@topica.com> Travis, The Fire Wind And Rain has two models. The more expensive one has really extensive data logging and graphical interface capabilities. Of course, the unit does not work right yet, but hopefully they get the product ironed out and working, and you can then add in a data logger for about $200 over the cost of a std MPPT unit. Jeff Jeffery D. Wolfe, P.E. Global Resource Options, LLP A Woman-Owned Vermont Limited Liability Partnership 4 Kibling Hill Road P.O. Box 51 Strafford, VT 05072 802/765-4632 802/765-9983 (Fax) global at sover.net www.globalresourceoptions.com I'd like to set up a something on my array side (vs. the common - of the system) and use it to count the array's amp hour production. A Tri-Metric or similar would be nice and I believe it would be more accurate than the C40 DVM and for the most part, pretty inexpensive. What would really be nice would be something that would take voltage into account and give daily watt hours. Yes, you could do this with a data logger but it will require combining two channels and would a lot more expensive than a customer would want to pay. It seems that this would be a great product in this day of net metering systems gaining popularity. Thanks Travis ---------- >From: "Jeffrey Wolfe, Global Resources" >To: "'RE-wrenches at topica.com'" >Subject: RE: Solar Boost in Net Metering [RE-wrenches] >Date: Tue, Aug 15, 2000, 9:28 PM > >Jon, > >Both the Solar Boost that we use on our mobile setup and the Fire Wind and >Rain that we are destroying in our basement are hooked up to net meter. The >only tricky part is just like on the C-40's or others. Make sure the >controller does not go into shutoff due to voltage. I was told by Trace to >keep the voltage differential (between the Inverter and the charge >controller) at .5V for 12V system, 1V for a 24V system and 1.5V for a 48 V >system, due to "measurement errors" (i.e. to make up for Trace's bad >meters). > >The power boost and the voltage conversion have nothing to do with the net >metering otherwise. Of course, we do not see the larger boost, since we are >operating at "battery full" levels, but we are still seeing an >(unscientifically measured) approximately 10 - 15% boost with the SB50. (No >boost, probably deficiet, with the FWR) > >Jeff > >Jeffery D. Wolfe, P.E. >Global Resource Options, LLP >A Woman-Owned Vermont Limited Liability Partnership >4 Kibling Hill Road >P.O. Box 51 >Strafford, VT 05072 >802/765-4632 >802/765-9983 (Fax) >global at sover.net >www.globalresourceoptions.com - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From allan at positivenergy.com Wed Aug 16 20:18:34 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 17:18:34 -0700 Subject: Tips: 4/0 cable crimps [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.941311295-951758591-966471514@topica.com> Greetings, Chuck and wrenches, Here's an easier way to get multistrand cable into those itty bitty terminals. First, slit the insulation once around the cable, about 1/2 of your intended length (say, 3/8-1/2") with knife or cable cutters. Remove this ring of insulation. Then, make a second slit-around at the point you want the cable stripped back to. Leave this ring on the cable, sliding it to the end. It will hold the strands together while you feed the cable into the terminal. Once in, slit this ring lengthwise, remove this scrap, and slide the terminal on the rest of the way. Allan @ Positive Energy -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Heath, SunPower To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Date: Wednesday, August 16, 2000 12:10 AM Subject: Tips: 4/0 cable crimps [RE-wrenches] >Awhile back, someone on the list asked for tips. Here's one for getting >those 4,123 strands (?) of 4/0 welding cable into a ring terminal or >compression fitting such as the DC 250 DCBB: > >Use a _single strand_ of #16 wire to wrap the 4/0 using your fingers and >needle nose pliers _before_ removing the already cut ring of outer >insulation. Wrap it right next to the insulation, where the cable is >smallest. Then, carefully slide the tightened strand up toward the end of >the 4/0 cable that tries to "bloom" as you remove the ring of cut >insulation. Fold the twisted #16 end upward against the 4/0 cable and >insert. Voilá! > >Cordially, Chuck _it works for me_ Heath >"Plugging into Sunshine since 1989" >Big Oak Flat CA > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cvsolar at aol.com Wed Aug 16 21:19:56 2000 From: cvsolar at aol.com (John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 18:19:56 -0700 Subject: Tips: 4/0 cable crimps [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1523226719-212058698-966475196@topica.com> A variation of the #16 wire wrapped around the 4/0 cable end to insert into the DC250 breaker... Use a small rubber band, wrapped tight, insert and the rubber band can roll back along the bare as it is inserted . Cut the rubber band with a sharp knife and it flies off, then insert the rest of the way. This is probably quicker to do but sometimes the rubber bands are extremely strong and resist cutting. John Blittersdorf CVSolar - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From amazonpower at hotmail.com Sat Aug 19 01:04:59 2000 From: amazonpower at hotmail.com (Donna Fischer, Amazon Power) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 22:04:59 -0700 Subject: Remember that SW giving me grief? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1855624312-212058698-966661499@topica.com> Hi folks, It's been some time since I asked for ideas on an overcharging problem coupled with melted cordless drill batteries, and appreciate the food for thought that I got back. Some of you probably wonder what came of this, so now that I figured some of it out (with more help, of course)I thought I'd let you know. In the future I'll be sure to give more system details. This is a wind/pv hybrid system. The county has been making us jump through lots of hoops before giving approval for this tower, so I installed the PV system alone through the EZ-wire center to ease the use of the propane generator. I thought the dump load was only used to regulate the wind generator and didn't have it hooked up yet. So there ya go - batteries got overcharged. As far as the cordless batteries melting, I got a couple of good ideas about why this may have happened from you guys, and when I looked at the chargers, at least one of them had a half inch of bare copper showing on both sides of the cord! This is the first wind/pv system I've masterminded and my learning curve was steep, but hey, I'll be going into the next one with a lot more confidence. Thanks for giving me some positive feedback when I was going crazy with this! Donna ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cvsolar at aol.com Sat Aug 19 06:34:16 2000 From: cvsolar at aol.com (John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 03:34:16 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.39581364-951758591-966681256@topica.com> Hi Gang, I just received an email from someone in Deep Southern Texas. Do we have any wrenches from that area yet. Travis, I think you were the closest one the last time I had a Texas request. This may not pan out to be a sale as he uses 1500kwh a month and wants to go solar. Then again, there are some people with money in Texas. John Central Vermont Solar and Wind. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ipl at sover.net Sat Aug 19 15:52:13 2000 From: ipl at sover.net (David Palumbo, Independent Power & Light) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 12:52:13 -0700 Subject: two Trace SW4048's in parallel [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1609217644-212058698-966714733@topica.com> Wrenches, We are adding a second SW4048 onto a system for two reasons. 1) To increase the speed of battery charging (system has a large 120/240 Kohler genset). 2) To provide backup inverter power in case one of the SW4048's should fail. This is a 120 volt system only so we will not be series stacking the two SW4048's. The client also does not need any more power on one circuit than one SW will supply. Our idea is to keep the SW4048's independent of each other and simply wire each inverters output hot wire to a different leg in the AC load center. We have successfully done this with two Exeltech 1100's and I don't see why this should not work with SW4048's. It is relatively easy to balance the home's various circuits so that all of the big loads will not be fed from one inverter. For instance we will make sure that the water pump and washing machine are fed from different inverters. By doing it this way we will save our client the $ 345 for the Trace SWI/PAR paralleling kit. Plus the extra labor to install, and the added system complexity. We wanted to float this idea out to the list in case we are missing something. David Palumbo IP&L - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Sat Aug 19 15:54:06 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 12:54:06 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.39581364-951758591-966681256@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1335108920-212058698-966714846@topica.com> Central Texas: Joe Bredehoeft, Wimberly Texas. (830) 833-2228. Advisor for solar electric. South Texas: SBT Designs will travel to perform solar electric installations or repair. Certified technician with degree in electronics. (210) 698-7109 in Boerne, Texas. sbtdesigns at stic.net Austin Texas area: Meridian Energy Systems, Andrew McCalla, design, installation, service. P O Box 5810 Austin TX 78763 Phone (512) 477-3050 www.meridiansolar.com Texas, LA, AR, MS, AL, Florida panhandle. $45/hour minimum 1 day. Code compliant installation. Petit's Electronics, (504) 758-8284. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems ----- Original Message ----- From: John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind To: Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2000 3:34 AM Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] > Hi Gang, > I just received an email from someone in Deep Southern Texas. Do we have > any wrenches from that area yet. Travis, I think you were the closest one > the last time I had a Texas request. This may not pan out to be a sale as he > uses 1500kwh a month and wants to go solar. Then again, there are some > people with money in Texas. > > John > Central Vermont Solar and Wind. > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ellison at gisco.net Sat Aug 19 16:19:33 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison, Alternative Energy Systems) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 13:19:33 -0700 Subject: two Trace SW4048's in parallel [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1609217644-212058698-966714733@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1504911965-951758591-966716373@topica.com> Why not just use it as a charger when AC power is fed to it and let it stay off the rest of the time? That way you don't have 2 inverters running fairly inefficiently just putting out a few watts? I have done that with Hearts in the past, not sure if the SW will let you do it or not. All the load on 1 inverter is bound to be more efficient that splitting it between 2 inverters and having them both low on the efficiency curve. Just my thoughts, Bob Ellison -----Original Message----- From: David Palumbo, Independent Power & Light [mailto:ipl at sover.net] Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2000 3:52 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica. com Subject: two Trace SW4048's in parallel [RE-wrenches] Wrenches, We are adding a second SW4048 onto a system for two reasons. 1) To increase the speed of battery charging (system has a large 120/240 Kohler genset). 2) To provide backup inverter power in case one of the SW4048's should fail. This is a 120 volt system only so we will not be series stacking the two SW4048's. The client also does not need any more power on one circuit than one SW will supply. Our idea is to keep the SW4048's independent of each other and simply wire each inverters output hot wire to a different leg in the AC load center. We have successfully done this with two Exeltech 1100's and I don't see why this should not work with SW4048's. It is relatively easy to balance the home's various circuits so that all of the big loads will not be fed from one inverter. For instance we will make sure that the water pump and washing machine are fed from different inverters. By doing it this way we will save our client the $ 345 for the Trace SWI/PAR paralleling kit. Plus the extra labor to install, and the added system complexity. We wanted to float this idea out to the list in case we are missing something. David Palumbo IP&L - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From allan at positivenergy.com Sat Aug 19 19:53:55 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 16:53:55 -0700 Subject: two Trace SW4048's in parallel [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1008024213-212058698-966729235@topica.com> David, It helps me to remember that you are in Vermont, not New Mexico, so generators are what carry folks through the winter when there's no sun. A few concerns come to mind: Each SW has an idle current of about 16 watts, so you are adding the potential of a lotta wasted inefficiency if you split the loads. Each 5548 can supply 45A @120 VAC, so if you had no problems with overcurrent shutoff with one, there is no benefit to balancing big loads between two. If you do split loads, you might put all large, intermittent-duty motor-type loads on one inverter, and routine and sensitive (computer-type) loads on the other. This both reduces chance of crashing computers, flickering lights, etc., when motors start, and also lessens the occurrence of two small (one CF light) loads causing both inverters to wake up and run at their least efficient. Your solution will work, but seems somehow inelegant, like using a chainsaw to cut butter... How big is the Kohler, and what's your elevation? Could a cheaper, dedicated charger-only do the job, if the only job is using more of the generator output to charge faster? Remember, the Trace SW is woefully inefficient (about 55%, I beleive). All Kohlers thru 12 or 20kW or so can be wired 120 VAC output, so you don't have to match a pair of inverter/charger loads on each leg of 240 VAC output--you could use a charger in parallel with the inverter. IBE makes 48V models and would be cheaper (818 767-7067). Hope this helps. Allan at Positive E -----Original Message----- From: David Palumbo, Independent Power & Light To: RE-wrenches at topica. com Date: Saturday, August 19, 2000 1:57 PM Subject: two Trace SW4048's in parallel [RE-wrenches] >Wrenches, > >We are adding a second SW4048 onto a system for two reasons. > 1) To increase the speed of battery charging (system has a large 120/240 >Kohler genset). > > 2) To provide backup inverter power in case one of the SW4048's should >fail. > >This is a 120 volt system only so we will not be series stacking the two >SW4048's. The client >also does not need any more power on one circuit than one SW will supply. > >Our idea is to keep the SW4048's independent of each other and simply wire >each inverters >output hot wire to a different leg in the AC load center. We have >successfully done this with >two Exeltech 1100's and I don't see why this should not work with SW4048's. >It is relatively >easy to balance the home's various circuits so that all of the big loads >will not be fed from >one inverter. For instance we will make sure that the water pump and washing >machine are fed from >different inverters. > >By doing it this way we will save our client the $ 345 for the Trace SWI/PAR >paralleling kit. >Plus the extra labor to install, and the added system complexity. > >We wanted to float this idea out to the list in case we are missing >something. > >David Palumbo >IP&L > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From global at sover.net Sun Aug 20 00:51:07 2000 From: global at sover.net (Jeffrey Wolfe, Global Resources) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 21:51:07 -0700 Subject: two Trace SW4048's in parallel [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1826803513-951758591-966747067@topica.com> David, the only two things I can think of are: 1. The obvious - sign saying 120V, single phase only on the panel board 2. You may need separate, isolated neutral busses for each inverter in the panel. May not. I've had some strange feedback into the Trace SW's from common neutrals, and think this may cause a problem. (Something like the inverter #2 thinking that it is getting its supply fed back into it's input.) Anyone else have an opinion on this? Jeff Jeffery D. Wolfe, P.E. Global Resource Options, LLP A Woman-Owned Vermont Limited Liability Partnership 4 Kibling Hill Road P.O. Box 51 Strafford, VT 05072 802/765-4632 802/765-9983 (Fax) global at sover.net www.globalresourceoptions.com ---------- From: David Palumbo, Independent Power & Light[SMTP:ipl at sover.net] Reply To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2000 3:52 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica. com Subject: two Trace SW4048's in parallel [RE-wrenches] Wrenches, We are adding a second SW4048 onto a system for two reasons. 1) To increase the speed of battery charging (system has a large 120/240 Kohler genset). 2) To provide backup inverter power in case one of the SW4048's should fail. This is a 120 volt system only so we will not be series stacking the two SW4048's. The client also does not need any more power on one circuit than one SW will supply. Our idea is to keep the SW4048's independent of each other and simply wire each inverters output hot wire to a different leg in the AC load center. We have successfully done this with two Exeltech 1100's and I don't see why this should not work with SW4048's. It is relatively easy to balance the home's various circuits so that all of the big loads will not be fed from one inverter. For instance we will make sure that the water pump and washing machine are fed from different inverters. By doing it this way we will save our client the $ 345 for the Trace SWI/PAR paralleling kit. Plus the extra labor to install, and the added system complexity. We wanted to float this idea out to the list in case we are missing something. David Palumbo IP&L - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From joe.schwartz at homepower.com Sun Aug 20 12:38:13 2000 From: joe.schwartz at homepower.com (Joe Schwartz, Home Power) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 09:38:13 -0700 Subject: two Trace SW4048's in parallel [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1826803513-951758591-966747067@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1826803513-951758591-966747067@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1307835883-212058698-966789493@topica.com> >2. You may need separate, isolated neutral busses for each inverter in the >panel. May not. I've had some strange feedback into the Trace SW's from >common neutrals, and think this may cause a problem. (Something like the >inverter #2 thinking that it is getting its supply fed back into it's >input.) > >Anyone else have an opinion on this? We run four inverters up at Home Power. Neutral is common among them via the neutral/ground bond. I was concerned that this would be problematic. The inverter manufacturers didn't seem to like the idea either but couldn't come up with any technical reason why this configuration wouldn't work. Neither could anyone else I talked with. We went ahead with the common neutral configuration and everything works just fine. To isolate the inverters from one another separate neutral AND equipment ground systems would be necessary (raceways, conduit if metallic, etc...) Besides being a headache, this leads to other problems like varied potential to ground in the individual systems. Joe Schwartz > >Jeff > >Jeffery D. Wolfe, P.E. >Global Resource Options, LLP >A Woman-Owned Vermont Limited Liability Partnership >4 Kibling Hill Road >P.O. Box 51 >Strafford, VT 05072 >802/765-4632 >802/765-9983 (Fax) >global at sover.net >www.globalresourceoptions.com > > >---------- >From: David Palumbo, Independent Power & Light[SMTP:ipl at sover.net] >Reply To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2000 3:52 PM >To: RE-wrenches at topica. com >Subject: two Trace SW4048's in parallel [RE-wrenches] > >Wrenches, > >We are adding a second SW4048 onto a system for two reasons. > 1) To increase the speed of battery charging (system has a >large 120/240 >Kohler genset). > > 2) To provide backup inverter power in case one of the SW4048's >should >fail. > >This is a 120 volt system only so we will not be series stacking the two >SW4048's. The client >also does not need any more power on one circuit than one SW will supply. > >Our idea is to keep the SW4048's independent of each other and simply wire >each inverters >output hot wire to a different leg in the AC load center. We have >successfully done this with >two Exeltech 1100's and I don't see why this should not work with SW4048's. >It is relatively >easy to balance the home's various circuits so that all of the big loads >will not be fed from >one inverter. For instance we will make sure that the water pump and >washing >machine are fed from >different inverters. > >By doing it this way we will save our client the $ 345 for the Trace >SWI/PAR >paralleling kit. >Plus the extra labor to install, and the added system complexity. > >We wanted to float this idea out to the list in case we are missing >something. > >David Palumbo >IP&L > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics ------------- Joe Schwartz Home Power Magazine PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA email:joe.schwartz at homepower.com Web: http://www.homepower.com - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From i2p at aol.com Sun Aug 20 13:53:15 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (Don Loweburg, Offline) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 10:53:15 -0700 Subject: two Trace SW4048's in parallel [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1744898120-212058698-966793995@topica.com> In a message dated 08/20/2000 9:39:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time, joe.schwartz at homepower.com writes: << . You may need separate, isolated neutral busses for each inverter in the >panel. May not. I've had some strange feedback into the Trace SW's from >common neutrals, and think this may cause a problem. (Something like the >inverter #2 thinking that it is getting its supply fed back into it's >input.) > >Anyone else have an opinion on this? We run four inverters up at Home Power. Neutral is common among them via the neutral/ground bond. I was concerned that this would be p >> Not sure what the actual details are here (and this can be the most important thing) In general- each inverter should have it's own neutral wire run to a common system neutral - this common neutral will also be bonded to the system ground at a single point. This neutral is common to everything, generator, all inverters, all loads. Don Loweburg - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From freepower at freepower.co.nz Mon Aug 21 07:03:05 2000 From: freepower at freepower.co.nz (Carl Emerson) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 04:03:05 -0700 Subject: two Trace SW4048's in parallel [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1744898120-212058698-966793995@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.918655277-212058698-966855785@topica.com> Hullo folks... I have run two SW inverters (common Neutral) for over a year with no problems. I am currently setting up an installation with seven SW inverters. I also have followed the rule of one only common earth point as close to Batt Neg. as possible. -- Regards, Carl Emerson Manager FREEPOWER LTD. "Harnessing Natural Energy" AUCKLAND 356 East Coast Road, Mairangi Bay, P.O. Box 68-247, AUCKLAND, New Zealand. Voice +64 9 478-0404 Mobile 021-633999 Cellfax 021-2919399 Fax +64 9 478-0405 Email emerson at freepower.co.nz - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunpwr at jps.net Mon Aug 21 08:34:28 2000 From: sunpwr at jps.net (Chuck Heath, SunPower) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 05:34:28 -0700 Subject: Freezer in freezing conditions [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1011173354-951758591-966861268@topica.com> A computer friend asks this question, to which I have no answers: We are moving and wish to' temporarily' store a working chest freezer in an unheated garage. I have a residual thought somewhere that it might not work in a cold New England winter environment - something about heat exchange. Any ideas are appreciated. Chuck Heath _who escaped from bitter cold winters years ago_ - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ellison at gisco.net Mon Aug 21 08:41:54 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison, Alternative Energy Systems) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 05:41:54 -0700 Subject: Freezer in freezing conditions [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1011173354-951758591-966861268@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2141404919-212058698-966861714@topica.com> If the temperature is lower than the setting it just will not have to run, sounds like it could be fairly efficient ....at least in the winter. Up here people leave them in the garage year round. Bob -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Heath, SunPower [mailto:sunpwr at jps.net] Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 8:34 AM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Freezer in freezing conditions [RE-wrenches] A computer friend asks this question, to which I have no answers: We are moving and wish to' temporarily' store a working chest freezer in an unheated garage. I have a residual thought somewhere that it might not work in a cold New England winter environment - something about heat exchange. Any ideas are appreciated. Chuck Heath _who escaped from bitter cold winters years ago_ - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From j.lamb at pecorp.com Mon Aug 21 08:55:41 2000 From: j.lamb at pecorp.com (James Lamb, Middle Fork Engineering) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 05:55:41 -0700 Subject: Freezer in freezing conditions [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1006556171-212058698-966862541@topica.com> If you start a refrigerator or freezer in a cold environment. It can blow the compresser. It has somthing to do with the refrigerant or being in a liqiud state in a cold environment and the compressor not being able to compress the liquid. This can break the refrigerant valve on top of the compressor. Long ago when electric refrigerators became available a compressor heater was installed because people were putting their refrigerators in cold porches and breaking the compressor. The best way to do this is to put the box in a cold environment and keep the compressor in a warm place. I do not know it you can put the condenser coil in a cold environment. There is a limit 40 - 50 degrees. It probably depends on the unit itself Any other thoughts on this Jim Lamb Middle fork engineering > ---------- > From: Chuck Heath, SunPower[SMTP:sunpwr at jps.net] > Reply To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 7:34 AM > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Subject: Freezer in freezing conditions [RE-wrenches] > > A computer friend asks this question, to which I have no answers: > > We are moving and wish to' temporarily' store a working chest freezer in > an unheated garage. I have a residual thought somewhere that it might not > work in a cold New England winter environment - something about heat > exchange. Any ideas are appreciated. > > Chuck Heath _who escaped from bitter cold winters years ago_ > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > ---------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ellison at gisco.net Mon Aug 21 09:33:59 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison, Alternative Energy Systems) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 06:33:59 -0700 Subject: Freezer in freezing conditions [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1006556171-212058698-966862541@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.466983652-212058698-966864839@topica.com> Jim is correct, but those are commercial compressors and they sometimes have heaters to keep the oil in the base warm to ease starting in cold weather. Similar to a car having a block heater to keep the engine warm. They also are remote compressor units with the compressor located outside and the refrigerated area in a building. In a case like that the compressor would have to start in all weather to provide cooling. In the case of a freezer in a garage it would not even come on because there is no need for further cooling when the temperature is already low. An outside refrigerator or freezer will pretty much protect themselves in this case. Bob Ellison -----Original Message----- From: James Lamb, Middle Fork Engineering [mailto:j.lamb at pecorp.com] Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 8:56 AM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: RE: Freezer in freezing conditions [RE-wrenches] If you start a refrigerator or freezer in a cold environment. It can blow the compresser. It has somthing to do with the refrigerant or being in a liqiud state in a cold environment and the compressor not being able to compress the liquid. This can break the refrigerant valve on top of the compressor. Long ago when electric refrigerators became available a compressor heater was installed because people were putting their refrigerators in cold porches and breaking the compressor. The best way to do this is to put the box in a cold environment and keep the compressor in a warm place. I do not know it you can put the condenser coil in a cold environment. There is a limit 40 - 50 degrees. It probably depends on the unit itself Any other thoughts on this Jim Lamb Middle fork engineering > ---------- > From: Chuck Heath, SunPower[SMTP:sunpwr at jps.net] > Reply To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 7:34 AM > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Subject: Freezer in freezing conditions [RE-wrenches] > > A computer friend asks this question, to which I have no answers: > > We are moving and wish to' temporarily' store a working chest freezer in > an unheated garage. I have a residual thought somewhere that it might not > work in a cold New England winter environment - something about heat > exchange. Any ideas are appreciated. > > Chuck Heath _who escaped from bitter cold winters years ago_ > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > ---------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Mon Aug 21 10:40:24 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 07:40:24 -0700 Subject: Freezer in freezing conditions [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1011173354-951758591-966861268@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1333271046-951758591-966868824@topica.com> Refrigeration and freezers are less efficient in extreme temps because the amount of refrigerant is optimized for room temperature, but then they have less work to do so energy use is very low. There have been some comments concerned about lubrication at low temps, but many solar home people place freezers in unheated areas to save winter energy and I hear no problems. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck Heath, SunPower To: Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 5:34 AM Subject: Freezer in freezing conditions [RE-wrenches] > A computer friend asks this question, to which I have no answers: > > We are moving and wish to' temporarily' store a working chest freezer in > an unheated garage. I have a residual thought somewhere that it might not > work in a cold New England winter environment - something about heat > exchange. Any ideas are appreciated. > > Chuck Heath _who escaped from bitter cold winters years ago_ > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Mon Aug 21 11:00:23 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 08:00:23 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1476017730-212058698-966870023@topica.com> John, Thanks for keeping me in mind. Texas is pretty much too far south although I have some customers about 70 miles north of Texas. Thanks to Steve for posting the names of some folks who can help him. This is hard business and we all need every lead we can get. Travis Ozark Solar ---------- >From: "John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind" >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] >Date: Sat, Aug 19, 2000, 5:34 AM > >Hi Gang, > I just received an email from someone in Deep Southern Texas. Do we have >any wrenches from that area yet. Travis, I think you were the closest one >the last time I had a Texas request. This may not pan out to be a sale as he >uses 1500kwh a month and wants to go solar. Then again, there are some >people with money in Texas. > >John >Central Vermont Solar and Wind. > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From roy at four-winds-energy.com Mon Aug 21 12:10:39 2000 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler, Four Winds RE) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 09:10:39 -0700 Subject: Freezer in freezing conditions [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1006556171-212058698-966862541@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1766250210-951758591-966874239@topica.com> Just to add my 2 cents worth...lThat point regarding compressor problems in cold weather certainly sounds like a valid issue to me though. Like Bob says, a lot of folks leave their freezers in unheated porches, garages, etc. up here. I've done it for years, in both NY and New England where I used to live. They always worked OK...ran a LOT less in winter! As far as any solid scientific info on this...I have none. Just going by past experience. "James Lamb, Middle Fork Engineering" wrote: > If you start a refrigerator or freezer in a cold environment. It can blow > the compresser. ............ - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From global at sover.net Mon Aug 21 13:02:37 2000 From: global at sover.net (Jeffrey Wolfe, Global Resources) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 10:02:37 -0700 Subject: Freezer in freezing conditions [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1034344410-212058698-966877357@topica.com> Here's the technical scoop. (Maybe more than you wanted to know?) The freezer (or refrigerator) works in the following stages: 1. Compress the refrigerant gas to high pressure. Also results in high temp. 2. Cool the "hot gas" in the condensor. (The condensor is the coils outside the box.) The objective is to create a liquid, a little below its boiling point (at the working pressure). How far below boiling it is depends upon the exact design, but typically no more than about 15 degrees F. 3. The "liquid" is then put through an expansion device. On a residential fridge or freezer, this is usually a static device, just an orifice. So it does not adjust for load or varying inlet conditions of the liquid. The expansion device makes a gas from the liquid. When it expands, it drops in temperature. (This is how we can cool the gas with a condenser at 100 degrees F and then cool the food at 0 deg F.) 4. After the expansion device, we have "cold gas". This cold gas goes into the evaporator, which is the plate inside the fridge or freezer that cools it. In the evaporator, the cold gas must ALL warm up, so that it is hot enough so that there is NO liquid when it gets to the compressor. 5. Now the "warm gas" after the evaporator goes back to the compressor. So where the problem comes in is if the evaporator does not add enough heat into the refrigerant gas to get it warm enough. This is compounded when the liquid gets too cold in the condensor, since it may not all vaporize when it goes through the (static) expansion device. The result is called "liquid slugging" the compressor. It can ruin it very quickly, kind of like putting sand through it. The reason it does not happen too often can vary, such as the garage is not really that cold, or the unit actually does not run at all when it gets to the point that it might get damaged, etc. But it can happen that you can destroy a unit. It can also happen that it uses a lot more energy, since trying to compress liquid is basically impossible. I don't know of any sure-fire recommendations to avoid problems. I know that the folks at GE, etc., are not thinking "energy conservation, let's make this thing so it can operate in cold weather" when they design their units. I typically do NOT recommend to clients that they put them outside. Sometimes they do, but I don't want to buy any new compressors. Jeff Jeffery D. Wolfe, P.E. Global Resource Options, LLP A Woman-Owned Limited Liability Partnership 4 Kibling Hill Road P.O. Box 51 Strafford, VT 05072 800-374-4494 Toll Free 802-765-4632 Phone 802-765-9983 Fax global at sover.net www.globalresourceoptions.com ---------- From: Bob Ellison, Alternative Energy Systems[SMTP:ellison at gisco.net] Reply To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 9:33 AM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: RE: Freezer in freezing conditions [RE-wrenches] Jim is correct, but those are commercial compressors and they sometimes have heaters to keep the oil in the base warm to ease starting in cold weather. Similar to a car having a block heater to keep the engine warm. They also are remote compressor units with the compressor located outside and the refrigerated area in a building. In a case like that the compressor would have to start in all weather to provide cooling. In the case of a freezer in a garage it would not even come on because there is no need for further cooling when the temperature is already low. An outside refrigerator or freezer will pretty much protect themselves in this case. Bob Ellison -----Original Message----- From: James Lamb, Middle Fork Engineering [mailto:j.lamb at pecorp.com] Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 8:56 AM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: RE: Freezer in freezing conditions [RE-wrenches] If you start a refrigerator or freezer in a cold environment. It can blow the compresser. It has somthing to do with the refrigerant or being in a liqiud state in a cold environment and the compressor not being able to compress the liquid. This can break the refrigerant valve on top of the compressor. Long ago when electric refrigerators became available a compressor heater was installed because people were putting their refrigerators in cold porches and breaking the compressor. The best way to do this is to put the box in a cold environment and keep the compressor in a warm place. I do not know it you can put the condenser coil in a cold environment. There is a limit 40 - 50 degrees. It probably depends on the unit itself Any other thoughts on this Jim Lamb Middle fork engineering > ---------- > From: Chuck Heath, SunPower[SMTP:sunpwr at jps.net] > Reply To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 7:34 AM > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Subject: Freezer in freezing conditions [RE-wrenches] > > A computer friend asks this question, to which I have no answers: > > We are moving and wish to' temporarily' store a working chest freezer in > an unheated garage. I have a residual thought somewhere that it might not > work in a cold New England winter environment - something about heat > exchange. Any ideas are appreciated. > > Chuck Heath _who escaped from bitter cold winters years ago_ > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > ---------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From jackwest at alaska.net Mon Aug 21 13:06:17 2000 From: jackwest at alaska.net (Jack West, Talkeetna AE) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 10:06:17 -0700 Subject: Freezer in freezing conditions [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1006556171-212058698-966862541@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1766250210-951758591-966874239@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1326691735-212058698-966877577@topica.com> A word from Alaska on the freezer issue: Mine works fine after 8 years outside. It is very common here for people to have them in unheated spaces and I've never heard of anyone having trouble. Jack West Talkeetna AE - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From allan at positivenergy.com Tue Aug 22 00:15:41 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 21:15:41 -0700 Subject: Polotically Correct modules [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.927610338-951758591-966917741@topica.com> Wrenches: Thank you for the responses to my request. I cut and pasted the text of the responses to give to my client, who enjoyed it as much as I. We have a wealth of information among us, and opinions to fill any of the gaps. It's an honor to be included. Just one more question on this topic: What about Photowatt modules? Of the early ones from the early 80s that Windy sold, I have yet to see one that's not producing rated output. Then they were French; now they're being made in Albuquerque--different technology, but nice. Are they indeed PC? Allan @ +E >allan wrote: > >> Wrenches, I usually use BP modules in our systems, only because >> of a strong allegiance to Dankoff Solar Products, who is a BP >> distributor. I have a strong lead for a 1 kW system upgrade who >> doesn't want to use BP because they are persecuting Christians in >> southern Sudan. Never being a big fan of Big Oil anyway, I got to >> wondering: which readily available, large size (say, 75-120 watts), >> warranted, UL-listed, yada, yada, modules are the most >> righteous? Defensible opinions appreciated here--thanks! Allan at >> Positive Energy > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From kurtj12 at aol.com Tue Aug 22 20:52:28 2000 From: kurtj12 at aol.com (kurtj12 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 17:52:28 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1541429117-951758591-966991948@topica.com> try andrew with meridian solar. he's in austin and does very good work. you can contact him on his web site at www.meridiansolar.com if you have any problems you can contact me at www.solarguys.com or 800-614-1484 kurt johnson the solar guys north carolina - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From creuter at rocketmail.com Tue Aug 22 23:56:11 2000 From: creuter at rocketmail.com (carl reuter) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 20:56:11 -0700 Subject: SW charging problems [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.514593455-951758591-967002971@topica.com> I just hooked up a SW5548 that will be part of a backup system and was anxious to top off the batteries as the customer has had them sitting for 8 months. I temporarily hooked up a extension cord to AC1 and set the AC1 amps at 15 as well as the max charging amps to 15. The inverter recognised the grid power, the volts and hertz were perfect but evertime I'd try to initiate charging the charger would only ingage and the bulk light would come on for about 5 sec. before it would kick out. It would keep repeating this pattern and the onboard meter never showed any amps. All the other settings are at default and since no error lites came on I'm thinking I missed something. Any suggestions. Carl Reuter ===== Land and Sea Solar, email: creuter at rocketmail.com Phone: 1-831-477-7762 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From jay at asis.com Wed Aug 23 00:13:57 2000 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 21:13:57 -0700 Subject: SW charging problems [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.514593455-951758591-967002971@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1491784225-951758591-967004037@topica.com> Hi Carl, I think that we need to know the size and length of the cord. It is possible that the cord is limiting the power which is causing a voltage drop thus the inverter drops off line. Also I presume that you are using the grid to charge this? Also make sure the breaker is on ( on the end of the inverter). Thanks, jay Peltz carl reuter wrote: > I just hooked up a SW5548 that will be part of a > backup system and was anxious to top off the batteries > as the customer has had them sitting for 8 months. I > temporarily hooked up a extension cord to AC1 and set > the AC1 amps at 15 as well as the max charging amps to > 15. The inverter recognised the grid power, the volts > and hertz were perfect but evertime I'd try to > initiate charging the charger would only ingage and > the bulk light would come on for about 5 sec. before > it would kick out. It would keep repeating this > pattern and the onboard meter never showed any amps. > All the other settings are at default and since no > error lites came on I'm thinking I missed something. > Any suggestions. Carl Reuter > > ===== > Land and Sea Solar, email: creuter at rocketmail.com Phone: 1-831-477-7762 > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! > http://mail.yahoo.com/ > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From allan at positivenergy.com Wed Aug 23 02:40:17 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 23:40:17 -0700 Subject: SW charging problems [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1877269223-951758591-967012817@topica.com> Carl, check the AC input breaker on the inverter, too. Allan -----Original Message----- From: carl reuter To: re wrench list Date: Tuesday, August 22, 2000 10:00 PM Subject: SW charging problems [RE-wrenches] >I just hooked up a SW5548 that will be part of a >backup system and was anxious to top off the batteries >as the customer has had them sitting for 8 months. I >temporarily hooked up a extension cord to AC1 and set >the AC1 amps at 15 as well as the max charging amps to >15. The inverter recognised the grid power, the volts >and hertz were perfect but evertime I'd try to >initiate charging the charger would only ingage and >the bulk light would come on for about 5 sec. before >it would kick out. It would keep repeating this >pattern and the onboard meter never showed any amps. >All the other settings are at default and since no >error lites came on I'm thinking I missed something. >Any suggestions. Carl Reuter > >===== >Land and Sea Solar, email: creuter at rocketmail.com Phone: 1-831-477-7762 > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! >http://mail.yahoo.com/ > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Wed Aug 23 10:12:38 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 07:12:38 -0700 Subject: SW charging problems [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.587531835-212058698-967039958@topica.com> Would it then go to float? If the absorbtion time is set real low (like 10 mins) that is what happens. That breaker on the 5548 is easy to bump and shut off as well as damage. Travis Creswell ---------- >From: carl reuter >To: re wrench list >Subject: SW charging problems [RE-wrenches] >Date: Tue, Aug 22, 2000, 10:56 PM > >I'd try to >initiate charging the charger would only ingage and >the bulk light would come on for about 5 sec. before >it would kick out. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From i2p at aol.com Wed Aug 23 12:58:33 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (Don Loweburg, Offline) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 09:58:33 -0700 Subject: SW charging problems [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.947023401-951758591-967049913@topica.com> Hi Carl, Monitor the battery voltage as the inverter charger begins its cycle. If it bumps up to the bulk voltage set point right away, I'll bet your batteries are sulphated. The inverter does what it thinks it should- goes to float. Drop the bulk voltage down a volt or two and see if the charger hangs in there a bit longer. If so, I would conclude the batteries need work. You can probably recover them by doing a series of recharges, each time upping the bulk voltage a bit. Good Luck, Don Loweburg - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Wed Aug 23 14:14:38 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 11:14:38 -0700 Subject: SW charging problems [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.947023401-951758591-967049913@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1013258590-212058698-967054478@topica.com> Seems to me that if you set the bulk voltage lower on the inverter, it will reach it faster and kick out quicker. You nee to set the charge amps much lower and bulk voltage up to equalize levels to get them started charging. Trojan states that 60 % of batteries in a bank will not recover from storage without charge for 12 months, the other 40% will, in their tests. I find that you have to equalize almost each time charged by cycle them a little too, and after a month or so most straighten out if they have been stored 3 or 4 months. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Loweburg, Offline To: Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2000 9:58 AM Subject: Re: SW charging problems [RE-wrenches] > Hi Carl, Monitor the battery voltage as the inverter charger begins its > cycle. If it bumps up to the bulk voltage set point right away, I'll bet your > batteries are sulphated. > > The inverter does what it thinks it should- goes to float. > > Drop the bulk voltage down a volt or two and see if the charger hangs in > there a bit longer. If so, I would conclude the batteries need work. You can > probably recover them by doing a series of recharges, each time upping the > bulk voltage a bit. > > Good Luck, Don Loweburg > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From i2p at aol.com Wed Aug 23 17:02:39 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (Don Loweburg, Offline) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 14:02:39 -0700 Subject: SW charging problems [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.622474748-951758591-967064559@topica.com> In a message dated 08/23/2000 11:15:14 AM Pacific Daylight Time, steve at backwoodssolar.com writes: << You nee to set the charge amps much lower and bulk voltage up to equalize levels to get them started charging. >> I agree with Steve here, this will work better. Don - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ipl at sover.net Wed Aug 23 19:23:47 2000 From: ipl at sover.net (David Palumbo, Independent Power & Light) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 16:23:47 -0700 Subject: SW charging problems [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.514593455-951758591-967002971@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.358570892-212058698-967073027@topica.com> -----Original Message----- From: carl reuter [mailto:creuter at rocketmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2000 11:56 PM To: re wrench list Subject: SW charging problems [RE-wrenches] I just hooked up a SW5548 that will be part of a backup system and was anxious to top off the batteries as the customer has had them sitting for 8 months. I temporarily hooked up a extension cord to AC1 and set the AC1 amps at 15 as well as the max charging amps to 15. The inverter recognised the grid power, the volts and hertz were perfect but evertime I'd try to initiate charging the charger would only ingage and the bulk light would come on for about 5 sec. before it would kick out. It would keep repeating this pattern and the onboard meter never showed any amps. All the other settings are at default and since no error lites came on I'm thinking I missed something. Any suggestions. Carl Reuter ===== Land and Sea Solar, email: creuter at rocketmail.com Phone: 1-831-477-7762 Carl, Steve Willey's suggestion sounds good. I would also try setting the Max Charge amps ac lower than the Grid (or gen) amps in AC Inputs (Menu heading 11). I was told this years ago by Lawrence of the late Photron and it does help the SW's work better. David Palumbo, IP&L __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunwise at win.bright.net Wed Aug 23 23:24:28 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (Kurt Nelson, SunWise) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 20:24:28 -0700 Subject: SW charging problems [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1750145925-951758591-967087468@topica.com> Hey all, Lots about this SW charging problem, and I'd agree with the (100ft, 16 guage???) extension cord maybe, but with a lot of the other responses I'm wondering about what part I'm missing here. If that Battery was toast, wouldn't the Trace still try and follow the standard charge procedure of bringing the voltage up to bulk and then drop into the absorption stage prior to totally dropping the gen-set? Kurt Nelson The inverter recognised the grid power, the volts and hertz were perfect but evertime I'd try to initiate charging the charger would only ingage and the bulk light would come on for about 5 sec. before it would kick out. > >Steve Willey's suggestion sounds good. I would also try setting the Max >Charge >amps ac lower than the Grid (or gen) amps in AC Inputs (Menu heading 11). >I was told this years ago by Lawrence of the late Photron and it >does help the SW's work better. > >David Palumbo, IP&L > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! >http://mail.yahoo.com/ > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From creuter at rocketmail.com Thu Aug 24 01:32:20 2000 From: creuter at rocketmail.com (carl reuter) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 22:32:20 -0700 Subject: SW charging problems [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.937738453-951758591-967095140@topica.com> Thanks for the suggestions everyone. It turned out to be the simplest thing, it was the toggle breaker on the side of the unit. I think I like those older style push to reset type breakers; that red handle on the new ones is too easy to bump. Also the temporary wire sizing is a concern, the plug gets pretty while the charger is on so I backed it down to 10 amps. Carl Reuter --- "David Palumbo, Independent Power & Light" wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: carl reuter [mailto:creuter at rocketmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2000 11:56 PM > To: re wrench list > Subject: SW charging problems [RE-wrenches] > > > I just hooked up a SW5548 that will be part of a > backup system and was anxious to top off the > batteries > as the customer has had them sitting for 8 months. I > temporarily hooked up a extension cord to AC1 and > set > the AC1 amps at 15 as well as the max charging amps > to > 15. The inverter recognised the grid power, the > volts > and hertz were perfect but evertime I'd try to > initiate charging the charger would only ingage and > the bulk light would come on for about 5 sec. before > it would kick out. It would keep repeating this > pattern and the onboard meter never showed any amps. > All the other settings are at default and since no > error lites came on I'm thinking I missed something. > Any suggestions. Carl Reuter > > ===== > Land and Sea Solar, email: creuter at rocketmail.com > Phone: 1-831-477-7762 > > Carl, > > Steve Willey's suggestion sounds good. I would also > try setting the Max > Charge > amps ac lower than the Grid (or gen) amps in AC > Inputs (Menu heading 11). > I was told this years ago by Lawrence of the late > Photron and it > does help the SW's work better. > > David Palumbo, IP&L > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from > anywhere! > http://mail.yahoo.com/ > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. > http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite > Topics > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. > http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics ===== Land and Sea Solar, email: creuter at rocketmail.com Phone: 1-831-477-7762 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From creuter at rocketmail.com Thu Aug 24 01:57:04 2000 From: creuter at rocketmail.com (carl reuter) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 22:57:04 -0700 Subject: saving old 'new' batteries [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.126468332-951758591-967096624@topica.com> Steve: I thought it was interesting what you'd mentioned of Trojans claim that 60% of batteries left a year without charging will not recover. I have a friend that I sold 4 trojan golf cart batteries to at least four years ago and he never did a thing with them until a few months ago. They had so much of the electrolyte evaporate out that the plates were exposed. Naturally I told my buddy they were toast but he wanted to see if he could breath life into them so I said if he wanted to waste his time then at least equalize them. He claimed they came back up and were holding. Of couse I was sceptical but when I went over there we put 20 amps of load on them and they only dropped 2 tenths of a volt in the first minute. I'm baffled because they act like a reasonably fresh battery. It defies everything I've been taught.Of course the real acid test would be to run them flat and track capacity.Anyone else have this experience.Carl Reuter ===== Land and Sea Solar, email: creuter at rocketmail.com Phone: 1-831-477-7762 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cvsolar at aol.com Thu Aug 24 07:55:18 2000 From: cvsolar at aol.com (John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 04:55:18 -0700 Subject: saving old 'new' batteries [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1137192082-212058698-967118118@topica.com> Carl, My Experience with "old" new batteries has been more like Trojans claim. I had a set of new L16's that sat around and rode around in my truck for a total of about 5 months before I hooked them up. They definitely showed signs of sulfating and with lots of equalizing charges seemed to recover. I added 4 more to the bank (fresh ones) about 5 months later and now I seem to have a ghost load that I can't find. No current is flowing according to the emeter but the batteries seem to lose charge. I'm wondering if the newer batteries are trying to charge the older problem batteries. The other explanation may be the "humming DC250 (see my letter and responses last spring). Gang, any of you still waiting for me to fix the humming box, stay tuned. I now have another reason to rewire. John Blittersdorf CVSolar - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From inkings at swcp.com Thu Aug 24 14:00:06 2000 From: inkings at swcp.com (paul wilkins) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 11:00:06 -0700 Subject: saving old 'new' batteries [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1137192082-212058698-967118118@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1578127864-951758591-967140006@topica.com> "John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind" wrote: > > Carl, > My Experience with "old" new batteries has been more like Trojans claim. > I had a set of new L16's that sat around and rode around in my truck for a > total of about 5 months before I hooked them up. They definitely showed > signs of sulfating and with lots of equalizing charges seemed to recover. I > added 4 more to the bank (fresh ones) about 5 months later and now I seem to > have a ghost load that I can't find. No current is flowing according to the > emeter but the batteries seem to lose charge. >I'm wondering if the newer > batteries are trying to charge the older problem batteries. I have seen this more than once and heard of it a lot. Paul Wilkins - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From michael.welch at homepower.com Thu Aug 24 15:12:31 2000 From: michael.welch at homepower.com (Michael Welch, Home Power) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 12:12:31 -0700 Subject: Bio info [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1578127864-951758591-967140006@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1137192082-212058698-967118118@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1491015191-951758591-967144351@topica.com> Hey gang, I'd like to remind everyone that hasn't done it yet to add their bio info to the Wrenches web page listed below in the message footer. It would also be great if the rest of you could have a look at your own entries and update them as necessary. How else are we going to know who everyone is? Thanks in advance, your appreciative moderator. Michael Welch ------------------------ "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." Edward Abbey Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com Associate Editor, Home Power magazine Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From i2p at aol.com Thu Aug 24 17:19:37 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (Don Loweburg, Offline) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 14:19:37 -0700 Subject: saving old 'new' batteries [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1239103745-212058698-967151977@topica.com> In a message dated 08/24/2000 11:00:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time, inkings at swcp.com writes: << I have seen this more than once and heard of it a lot. Paul Wilkins >> Whats that addage,"don't mix old and new batteries" Make sense to me. Don Loweburg - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solarjon at netshel.net Thu Aug 24 17:28:12 2000 From: solarjon at netshel.net (Jonathan Hill) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 14:28:12 -0700 Subject: saving old 'new' batteries [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.126468332-951758591-967096624@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.126468332-951758591-967096624@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2120766774-951758591-967152492@topica.com> >Carl- I've seen exactly the same thing. these L-16's sat for at least a year, fully discharged, with the electrolye level way below the plate tops. Can't say they worked like new, but definitely held a decent charge. I was baffled! Jon HIll >Steve: I thought it was interesting what you'd >mentioned of Trojans claim that 60% of batteries left >a year without charging will not recover. I have a >friend that I sold 4 trojan golf cart batteries to at >least four years ago and he never did a thing with >them until a few months ago. They had so much of the >electrolyte evaporate out that the plates were >exposed. Naturally I told my buddy they were toast but >he wanted to see if he could breath life into them so >I said if he wanted to waste his time then at least >equalize them. He claimed they came back up and were >holding. Of couse I was sceptical but when I went over >there we put 20 amps of load on them and they only >dropped 2 tenths of a volt in the first minute. I'm >baffled because they act like a reasonably fresh >battery. It defies everything I've been taught.Of >course the real acid test would be to run them flat >and track capacity.Anyone else have this >experience.Carl Reuter > >===== >Land and Sea Solar, email: creuter at rocketmail.com Phone: 1-831-477-7762 > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! >http://mail.yahoo.com/ > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics ----------------- Sierra Solar Systems 109-N Argall Way Nevada City, CA 95959 tech info and foreign orders: (530) 265-8441 order line: (800) 51-SOLAR (US only) FAX: (530) 265-6151 e-mail: world wide web: Because of the high volume of e-mail to which I respond, please leave _all_ of the previous message (unless it's unbearable) in your reply so I can better remember your original message. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Thu Aug 24 17:39:02 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 14:39:02 -0700 Subject: Self Discharge Rates [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1407334379-951758591-967153142@topica.com> Concorde claims that their AGM product self-discharges at less than 1% per month. I recently hooked up set of 12 volt 255 amphour that had been stored for over a year with no charging and they are doing fine. I did have to take them through a few easy cycles to get their voltages evened up but they seem to be doing great now. I'm not recommending this but I was very happy that they survived. I think the key was they were stored in a warehouse all winter which never got to far from 60 f. Based on how many amp hours I had to put back in this set I wouldn't argue with that 1% number too much. What about flooded batteries? Does anyone compensate for their high self discharge when sizing systems? Ed Mohoney from Concorde claims that they self discharge at 25% per month especially as they get older? Anyone agree with that? What is a reasonable number I'm pretty sure NiCads are even worse. I like the Concordes and have found them to be really tough but they are lot more money than L-16's. Travis Creswell - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From richard.perez at homepower.com Thu Aug 24 18:35:24 2000 From: richard.perez at homepower.com (Richard Perez, Home Power magazine) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 15:35:24 -0700 Subject: Self Discharge Rates [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1407334379-951758591-967153142@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1407334379-951758591-967153142@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2031393967-951758591-967156524@topica.com> Hello Wrenches Deep cycle (high antimony) flooded cells self discharge about 4% of their capacity weekly. This rate is highly temperature dependent--higher temps mean more self-discharge. Since the average discharge of a properly designed PV system is less than 12% nightly, this self discharge doesn't need to be factored into the system's design. When high antimony batteries age (about 8 to 15 years depending on energy maintenance), the self-discharge rate can reach up to 25% of their capacity weekly. I concur with Travis's experience on the Concorde AGMs. Very low self-discharge and very tough. We have eight of them here in various systems and they are the only sealed battery I've ever thought effective. Richard Perez At 14:39 -0700 8/24/00, Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar wrote: >Concorde claims that their AGM product self-discharges at less than 1% per >month. I recently hooked up set of 12 volt 255 amphour that had been >stored for over a year with no charging and they are doing fine. I did have >to take them through a few easy cycles to get their voltages evened up but >they seem to be doing great now. I'm not recommending this but I was very >happy that they survived. I think the key was they were stored in a >warehouse all winter which never got to far from 60 f. Based on how many >amp hours I had to put back in this set I wouldn't argue with that 1% number >too much. > >What about flooded batteries? Does anyone compensate for their high self >discharge when sizing systems? Ed Mohoney from Concorde claims that they >self discharge at 25% per month especially as they get older? Anyone agree >with that? What is a reasonable number I'm pretty sure NiCads are even >worse. I like the Concordes and have found them to be really tough but they >are lot more money than L-16's. > >Travis Creswell ------------------------------------ Richard Pérez Home Power PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA Tele: 530-475-3179 FAX: 530-475-0836 Subscriptions: 800-707-6585 mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com Web: http://www.homepower.com - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From kurtj12 at aol.com Fri Aug 25 22:43:10 2000 From: kurtj12 at aol.com (kurtj12 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 19:43:10 -0700 Subject: referral [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1941875029-951758591-967257790@topica.com> to any installer in the washington area: i have a guy in Renton, WA that is interested in solar. his name is Marvin Namnet and his # is 206-940-8608, e-mail is mnamet3 at aol.com i hope this is helpful to someone out there and that it turns into a good lead. if anyone has any referrals in NC or any bordering states i'd be happy to pick them up. kurt johnson the solar guys - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Mon Aug 28 12:26:32 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 09:26:32 -0700 Subject: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1573328322-212058698-967479992@topica.com> I typically leave the washer and dryers off my sizing calculations and just accept that they will only be operated when the generator is running so I really haven't paid much attention to their energy ratings. I just make sure the inverter(s) can start them. Does anyone have any recommendations for gas dryers for off grid houses? Many cook stoves are easily field convertible from nat. gas to propane and back. Is this true for the typical gas dryer? Has anyone used a power meter to find out how many watt hours the "typical" dryer takes to dry the "typical" load? My 10 year old washing machine takes 250 watt hours to do a full load of clothes and I have measured a customers Neptune washer and found it to take right at 100 watt hours for a load. My newer (1 yr old) Amana 21 cu. ft bottom freezer fridge is using just over 1.8 kWh's per day @ 80f. It's yellow tag rated it at 576 kwh's per year. I found it to be using something like 1.2 when the kitchen was under 70f. I subscribe to several energy trade journals and they are talking about the next generation of motor driven appliances are going to be using much more advanced motors within a few years. It seems that manufacturers have gone about as far as they can with non-motor efficiency improvements. It sounds promising that within several years we should be able to appliances locally that are ideal for RE systems. Travis Creswell Ozark Solar - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Mon Aug 28 13:19:42 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 10:19:42 -0700 Subject: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1573328322-212058698-967479992@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.903524645-212058698-967483182@topica.com> Thanks, Travis, for the watt hour figures on washers and Neptune. A table of these contributed by various experiences of wrenches could be a valuable reference. Until more than one inch foam insulation is used on refrigerators, I would say manufacturers have NOT gone as far as they can. Those of you selling or using Conserv freezer proves the benefit of better insulation. In my experience you can cut power use in half by going from 1 to 2.5 or 3 inches all around a refrigerator. Of course you cannot just add on outside a freezer as the wall skin is used as a heat radiator!! Vestfrost / Conserv could build a larger one with very little increase in power usage, because volume goes up with little surface area increase. The factory rep is interested in pushing for this, so if you think there is a market for a 15 cu ft or so, he asks that you call him and also call Kyocera and get them to request it. Here are some tips about the Conserv Chest freezer: It often comes with factory set inside temp range of -20 to - 5F. This is too cold to make good energy sense and makes even the best ice cream to hard to serve. We have discovered a way to change the range of the control knob to -5 to +8 and that seems to work better, and cuts typical use from 1200 watt hours a day to 850 on hottest days, as low as 500 watt hours in 70 degree days. It takes a small hard to find torx driver which we loan customers... but not having it here I cannot recall if size is number 7 or 8. The Vestfrost/conserv factory rep in US is Adrian Whitney Smith at 850-647-3889, . admarint at digitalexp.com. very helpful with technical info that Kyocera people cannot seem to get. By the way the rumor that the freezer is being discontinued is completely false, he says. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems > My newer (1 yr old) Amana 21 cu. ft bottom freezer fridge is using just over > 1.8 kWh's per day @ 80f. It's yellow tag rated it at 576 kwh's per year. > I found it to be using something like 1.2 when the kitchen was under 70f. I > subscribe to several energy trade journals and they are talking about the > next generation of motor driven appliances are going to be using much more > advanced motors within a few years. It seems that manufacturers have gone > about as far as they can with non-motor efficiency improvements. It sounds > promising that within several years we should be able to appliances locally > that are ideal for RE systems. > > Travis Creswell > Ozark Solar - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ghigbee at efn.org Mon Aug 28 17:18:30 2000 From: ghigbee at efn.org (Gary Higbee, Solutions from the Land) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 14:18:30 -0700 Subject: Kohler full-output at 120 volts? [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1008024213-212058698-966729235@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.496061308-212058698-967497510@topica.com> Hi Wrenches, Allan at Positive E wrote "All Kohlers thru 12 or 20kW or so can be wired 120 VAC output, so you don't have to match a pair of inverter/charger loads on each leg of 240 VAC output..." How this is done? I do mostly stand-alone systems, and haven't messed with generators much. I'm working with a client now, though, who's going to be using his Kohler propane generator (around 7kW) with a SW5548, 16 L-16's, running a Grundfos Model 10 SQ sub pump (9-10gpm measured at 425', "efficient," soft-start) and general household loads. He'll be generator-charging until we add a couple KW of solar in the future (when the $ tree grows up!). If there's a way to get (balanced) full-output from the Kohler without a T/240 I'd love to know how ASAP. Thank You! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gary Higbee (ghigbee at efn.org) (541)607-1818 Solutions from the Land--solar, wind, and hydro site analysis, design, and installation assistance ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Mon Aug 28 19:04:39 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 16:04:39 -0700 Subject: Kohler full-output at 120 volts? [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.496061308-212058698-967497510@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.562647079-951758591-967503879@topica.com> Kohler 10RY and the discontinued 6.5ROY air cooled 1800 RPM can all be rewired for full power 120 volt single circuit, or for split 120/240 with half power on each of two 120 legs. It simply requires switching the wires in behind the circuit breaker panel to put the two coils in series with opposite phases or in parallel with same phase. The diagrams in the OPERATION (not the installation) manual, page 5-1 and 5-2, figure 5-2 for 120 volt full power and figure 5-3 for 120/240 volt. Output power wires are numbered 1, 2, 3, 4. #3 is AL:WAYS grounded to stud on the chassis. Also on that stud bolt is EITHER gen output #1 for full power 120 volt, or Generator output #2 for 120/240 set-up. The remaining two gen wires are connected to the output breakers as shown in the two drawings. In reversing these two wires you will find the small tip on the wire originally on the breaker will not fit the stud and needs to be changed to a larger tip. Also there are 4 voltage regulator small white wires on these same output terminals. Labeled V1, V2, V3, V4. Do not move these from where they originally are. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems A catalog business on a mountain 2 miles from utility lines, powered entirely by our catalog products. IF UTILITY POWER IS 1/2 MILE OR MORE FROM YOUR SITE, get our free 160 page solar-electric Planning Guide/Catalog. (Your postal address required - Our list is never given or sold). Phone(208)263-4290 Fax (208) 265-4788 in Idaho, USA ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Higbee, Solutions from the Land To: Sent: Monday, August 28, 2000 2:18 PM Subject: Kohler full-output at 120 volts? [RE-wrenches] > Hi Wrenches, > > Allan at Positive E wrote "All Kohlers thru 12 or 20kW or so can be wired > 120 VAC output, so you don't have to match a pair of inverter/charger loads > on each leg of 240 VAC output..." > > How this is done? > > I do mostly stand-alone systems, and haven't messed with generators much. > I'm working with a client now, though, who's going to be using his Kohler > propane generator (around 7kW) with a SW5548, 16 L-16's, running a Grundfos > Model 10 SQ sub pump (9-10gpm measured at 425', "efficient," soft-start) and > general household loads. He'll be generator-charging until we add a couple > KW of solar in the future (when the $ tree grows up!). > > If there's a way to get (balanced) full-output from the Kohler without a > T/240 I'd love to know how ASAP. Thank You! > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Gary Higbee (ghigbee at efn.org) > (541)607-1818 > Solutions from the Land--solar, > wind, and hydro site analysis, design, > and installation assistance > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From allan at positivenergy.com Mon Aug 28 20:17:21 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 17:17:21 -0700 Subject: Kohler full-output at 120 volts? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1206625837-212058698-967508241@topica.com> Gary and wrenches: First, a caveat: We have been Kohler dealers since early '99 (the distributor invited a few dealers in CO and NM, anticipating Y2K business, and they were right). So we are most familiar with the 8.5 and 11 RMY air cooled homeowner units that replaced the wonderful 6.5 RMY flathead-powered unit of years past, and the smaller water-cooled RY/RZ units of 10, 12, and 20kW. There are other models for other markets that I'm not familiar with, and 17 and 22 kW models that don't derate well for our 6-9,000' elevations. So these LP/natural gas units are what we have installed. The reconnection diagrams are in Section 5 of the installation manuals that come with the units. Basically, the generator has 4 stator leads; 2 and 3 are tied together as neutral for 120/240 operation, and 1 and 3 are tied together as neutral for straight 120V output. I will not say any more here, to cover my rear. Check diagrams 5-1 thru 5-4 in the manual for morecomplete info. Onan Commercial units are also configurable to 120V. Their Marquis RV series only comes 120. Some Hondas come with a switchable output, but I'm not positive it's a bona fide full (balanced) 120V output. Wrenches? While we're on the subject, here's something that is usually overlooked but is a serious safety issue. All the generators I've seen come internally bonded neutral-to-ground. They have to, to protect dumb homeowners who don't ground the units. If you connect the gennie ground lug in the output to the home system ground (which you automatically will do if you use a proper plug and cord, wired up normally), you will have a current-carrying parallel path to your AC output neutral, as you will have two neutral-to-ground bonds in the system when the generator is connected. I have measured it with an amp-clamp. This is a major safety no-no. 1) Break your neutral-to-ground bond if you can. Kohlers use two ground lugs, side-by-side in the terminal area. Float the neutral stator wires; we use a #6 split bolt with a floating splice. Onan something similar. Cheapo units can't be unbonded, so: 2) Run only hot and neutral wires between the two points. Tape off the ground conductor if there is one (SO cord or the like) at both ends. Label what you've done. 3) Bond the gennie chassis to its own ground rod, that is separate from any system grounding. Keep the gennie physically out of reach of anything connected to ground in the house. I would appreciate any feedback on this, especially any inaccuracies in what I've written. By the way, Dankoff is carrying the smaller Kohler units for their dealers. Am I allowed to say this here?? Allan at Positive Energy -----Original Message----- From: Gary Higbee, Solutions from the Land To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Date: Monday, August 28, 2000 3:23 PM Subject: Kohler full-output at 120 volts? [RE-wrenches] >Hi Wrenches, > >Allan at Positive E wrote "All Kohlers thru 12 or 20kW or so can be wired >120 VAC output, so you don't have to match a pair of inverter/charger loads >on each leg of 240 VAC output..." > >How this is done? > >I do mostly stand-alone systems, and haven't messed with generators much. >I'm working with a client now, though, who's going to be using his Kohler >propane generator (around 7kW) with a SW5548, 16 L-16's, running a Grundfos >Model 10 SQ sub pump (9-10gpm measured at 425', "efficient," soft-start) and >general household loads. He'll be generator-charging until we add a couple >KW of solar in the future (when the $ tree grows up!). > >If there's a way to get (balanced) full-output from the Kohler without a >T/240 I'd love to know how ASAP. Thank You! > > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Gary Higbee (ghigbee at efn.org) > (541)607-1818 > Solutions from the Land--solar, > wind, and hydro site analysis, design, > and installation assistance >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From allan at positivenergy.com Mon Aug 28 20:37:45 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 17:37:45 -0700 Subject: Kohler full-output at 120 volts? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.278793612-212058698-967509465@topica.com> Steve, After sending my response I read yours, which is very clear. Only one thing, though: you say that stator lead #3 is always grounded to the chassis. I think that doing that forces the neutral-to-ground bond that I just ranted against. OK, y'all. My Kohler distributor recommended, for unbonded 120V operation (this is 8.5/11 RMY, but others are similar): 2&4 leads are hot; 1&3 are neutral. V4 wire goes from #4 lead to V8 terminal; V1 wire goes from #2 lead to V7 terminal (only V7 is used). V0 goes to AC neutral at a split bolt, to break bond. Allan at Positive Energy -----Original Message----- From: Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Date: Monday, August 28, 2000 5:09 PM Subject: Re: Kohler full-output at 120 volts? [RE-wrenches] >Kohler 10RY and the discontinued 6.5ROY air cooled 1800 RPM can all be >rewired for full power 120 volt single circuit, or for split 120/240 with >half power on each of two 120 legs. It simply requires switching the wires >in behind the circuit breaker panel to put the two coils in series with >opposite phases or in parallel with same phase. The diagrams in the >OPERATION (not the installation) manual, page 5-1 and 5-2, figure 5-2 for >120 volt full power and figure 5-3 for 120/240 volt. Output power wires are >numbered 1, 2, 3, 4. #3 is AL:WAYS grounded to stud on the chassis. Also on >that stud bolt is EITHER gen output #1 for full power 120 volt, or Generator >output #2 for 120/240 set-up. The remaining two gen wires are connected to >the output breakers as shown in the two drawings. In reversing these two >wires you will find the small tip on the wire originally on the breaker will >not fit the stud and needs to be changed to a larger tip. Also there are 4 >voltage regulator small white wires on these same output terminals. Labeled >V1, V2, V3, V4. Do not move these from where they originally are. > >Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com >Backwoods Solar Electric Systems >A catalog business on a mountain >2 miles from utility lines, >powered entirely by our catalog products. >IF UTILITY POWER IS 1/2 MILE OR MORE FROM YOUR SITE, >get our free 160 page solar-electric Planning Guide/Catalog. >(Your postal address required - Our list is never given or sold). >Phone(208)263-4290 Fax (208) 265-4788 in Idaho, USA > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Gary Higbee, Solutions from the Land >To: >Sent: Monday, August 28, 2000 2:18 PM >Subject: Kohler full-output at 120 volts? [RE-wrenches] > > >> Hi Wrenches, >> >> Allan at Positive E wrote "All Kohlers thru 12 or 20kW or so can be wired >> 120 VAC output, so you don't have to match a pair of inverter/charger >loads >> on each leg of 240 VAC output..." >> >> How this is done? >> >> I do mostly stand-alone systems, and haven't messed with generators much. >> I'm working with a client now, though, who's going to be using his Kohler >> propane generator (around 7kW) with a SW5548, 16 L-16's, running a >Grundfos >> Model 10 SQ sub pump (9-10gpm measured at 425', "efficient," soft-start) >and >> general household loads. He'll be generator-charging until we add a couple >> KW of solar in the future (when the $ tree grows up!). >> >> If there's a way to get (balanced) full-output from the Kohler without a >> T/240 I'd love to know how ASAP. Thank You! >> >> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> Gary Higbee (ghigbee at efn.org) >> (541)607-1818 >> Solutions from the Land--solar, >> wind, and hydro site analysis, design, >> and installation assistance >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> >> >> - - - - - - - >> To send a message: >> RE-wrenches at topica.com >> >> The archive of previous messages: >> http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ >> >> To unsubscribe send a message to: >> RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com >> >> To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: >> www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html >> >> Hosted by Home Power magazine: >> www.homepower.com >> >> For info contact list moderator by email: >> michael.welch at homepower.com >> ___________________________________________________________ >> T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >> Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics >> > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From allan at positivenergy.com Mon Aug 28 20:50:01 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 17:50:01 -0700 Subject: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1922156837-212058698-967510201@topica.com> Travis, ACEEE (202 429-8873; aceee.org) publishes a book called "Consumer Guide to Home Energy Savings" that lists appliance federal efficiency ratings, including washers. Nobody has rated dryers. I tell customers to get a Staber washer and any gas dryer (if they won't settle for a solar dryer--i.e. a clothesline). The Staber does the job very efficiently and is the only modern efficient unit that is still warranted if the mfgr. finds out it's running on inverter power. Really! Plus the Staber is set up for off-grid folks to service themselves, rather than being a "consumer unit of the appliance repair industry". All the dryers I've seen are convertible from LP to NG; it's an orifice change, available as a kit from the dealer. Dryer energy use seems more clothesly tied to how much water the washer removes on spin cycle than anything connected to the dryer. Some gas dryers have glow bars, but unlike gas stoves, thet cycle on and off to light the burner. Allan at Positive Energy -----Original Message----- From: Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Date: Monday, August 28, 2000 11:24 AM Subject: Re: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] >Thanks, Travis, for the watt hour figures on washers and Neptune. A table of >these contributed by various experiences of wrenches could be a valuable >reference. > >Until more than one inch foam insulation is used on refrigerators, I would >say manufacturers have NOT gone as far as they can. Those of you selling or >using Conserv freezer proves the benefit of better insulation. In my >experience you can cut power use in half by going from 1 to 2.5 or 3 inches >all around a refrigerator. Of course you cannot just add on outside a >freezer as the wall skin is used as a heat radiator!! > >Vestfrost / Conserv could build a larger one with very little increase in >power usage, because volume goes up with little surface area increase. The >factory rep is interested in pushing for this, so if you think there is a >market for a 15 cu ft or so, he asks that you call him and also call Kyocera >and get them to request it. > >Here are some tips about the Conserv Chest freezer: >It often comes with factory set inside temp range of -20 to - 5F. This is >too cold to make good energy sense and makes even the best ice cream to hard >to serve. We have discovered a way to change the range of the control knob >to -5 to +8 and that seems to work better, and cuts typical use from 1200 >watt hours a day to 850 on hottest days, as low as 500 watt hours in 70 >degree days. It takes a small hard to find torx driver which we loan >customers... but not having it here I cannot recall if size is number 7 or >8. > >The Vestfrost/conserv factory rep in US is Adrian Whitney Smith at >850-647-3889, . admarint at digitalexp.com. >very helpful with technical info that Kyocera people cannot seem to get. By >the way the rumor that the freezer is being discontinued is completely >false, he says. > >Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com >Backwoods Solar Electric Systems >> My newer (1 yr old) Amana 21 cu. ft bottom freezer fridge is using just >over >> 1.8 kWh's per day @ 80f. It's yellow tag rated it at 576 kwh's per >year. >> I found it to be using something like 1.2 when the kitchen was under 70f. >I >> subscribe to several energy trade journals and they are talking about the >> next generation of motor driven appliances are going to be using much more >> advanced motors within a few years. It seems that manufacturers have gone >> about as far as they can with non-motor efficiency improvements. It >sounds >> promising that within several years we should be able to appliances >locally >> that are ideal for RE systems. >> >> Travis Creswell >> Ozark Solar > > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From hkelly6 at ibm.net Tue Aug 29 09:16:27 2000 From: hkelly6 at ibm.net (Holt Kelly) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 06:16:27 -0700 Subject: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1922156837-212058698-967510201@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.250316479-951758591-967554987@topica.com> Greetings, Please Note that when converting LP to NG or vice versa that not only is the main burner orifice changed, the regulator on the valve and the pilot orifice must be changed (millivolt control valves). These components should be in the conversion kit. One final note: some mfg's in the fireplace (gas) industry will not sell you a conversion kit - you have to send the burner to them($$$$$$)so be sure that a conversion kit is available from the mfg. of the appliance you are buying. -----Original Message----- From: allan [mailto:allan at positivenergy.com] Sent: Monday, August 28, 2000 7:50 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Re: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] Travis, ACEEE (202 429-8873; aceee.org) publishes a book called "Consumer Guide to Home Energy Savings" that lists appliance federal efficiency ratings, including washers. Nobody has rated dryers. I tell customers to get a Staber washer and any gas dryer (if they won't settle for a solar dryer--i.e. a clothesline). The Staber does the job very efficiently and is the only modern efficient unit that is still warranted if the mfgr. finds out it's running on inverter power. Really! Plus the Staber is set up for off-grid folks to service themselves, rather than being a "consumer unit of the appliance repair industry". All the dryers I've seen are convertible from LP to NG; it's an orifice change, available as a kit from the dealer. Dryer energy use seems more clothesly tied to how much water the washer removes on spin cycle than anything connected to the dryer. Some gas dryers have glow bars, but unlike gas stoves, thet cycle on and off to light the burner. Allan at Positive Energy -----Original Message----- From: Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Date: Monday, August 28, 2000 11:24 AM Subject: Re: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] >Thanks, Travis, for the watt hour figures on washers and Neptune. A table of >these contributed by various experiences of wrenches could be a valuable >reference. > >Until more than one inch foam insulation is used on refrigerators, I would >say manufacturers have NOT gone as far as they can. Those of you selling or >using Conserv freezer proves the benefit of better insulation. In my >experience you can cut power use in half by going from 1 to 2.5 or 3 inches >all around a refrigerator. Of course you cannot just add on outside a >freezer as the wall skin is used as a heat radiator!! > >Vestfrost / Conserv could build a larger one with very little increase in >power usage, because volume goes up with little surface area increase. The >factory rep is interested in pushing for this, so if you think there is a >market for a 15 cu ft or so, he asks that you call him and also call Kyocera >and get them to request it. > >Here are some tips about the Conserv Chest freezer: >It often comes with factory set inside temp range of -20 to - 5F. This is >too cold to make good energy sense and makes even the best ice cream to hard >to serve. We have discovered a way to change the range of the control knob >to -5 to +8 and that seems to work better, and cuts typical use from 1200 >watt hours a day to 850 on hottest days, as low as 500 watt hours in 70 >degree days. It takes a small hard to find torx driver which we loan >customers... but not having it here I cannot recall if size is number 7 or >8. > >The Vestfrost/conserv factory rep in US is Adrian Whitney Smith at >850-647-3889, . admarint at digitalexp.com. >very helpful with technical info that Kyocera people cannot seem to get. By >the way the rumor that the freezer is being discontinued is completely >false, he says. > >Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com >Backwoods Solar Electric Systems >> My newer (1 yr old) Amana 21 cu. ft bottom freezer fridge is using just >over >> 1.8 kWh's per day @ 80f. It's yellow tag rated it at 576 kwh's per >year. >> I found it to be using something like 1.2 when the kitchen was under 70f. >I >> subscribe to several energy trade journals and they are talking about the >> next generation of motor driven appliances are going to be using much more >> advanced motors within a few years. It seems that manufacturers have gone >> about as far as they can with non-motor efficiency improvements. It >sounds >> promising that within several years we should be able to appliances >locally >> that are ideal for RE systems. >> >> Travis Creswell >> Ozark Solar > > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From phil at positivenergy.com Tue Aug 29 10:59:36 2000 From: phil at positivenergy.com (Phil Undercuffler) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 07:59:36 -0700 Subject: Kohler full-output at 120 volts? [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1206625837-212058698-967508241@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1303148465-951758591-967561176@topica.com> An important note of clarification about breaking the bond in the generator: I found a potential for misunderstanding in Allan's message. If you have a genset that allows the bond to be broken internally, such as the Kohler units, (Allan's note 1) I believe the genset should be grounded to the main system ground. If you choose to drive a suplemental ground rod near the genset, that rod should be connected to the main ground rod. However, if your genset's bond cannot be broken, as in most "contractor specials," then follow Allan's notes 2&3. The idea is based on "seperately derived systems" in the code, most commonly seen in farm outbuildings. Multiple services spread out on a property, only one meter/disconnect/bond point and NO ground wires, metal conduit, metal pipes, gutters, rebar, or any other potential ground conductor between. No where in the code does it state a minimum safe distance, so distance between the generator and any grounded point in this case is going to be at the discretion of your common sense and the athority having jurisdiction. By the way, I would like to know more about those 120/240 switches on some Honda units. Do they allow full output at 120? Phil Undercuffler Positive Energy ----- Original Message ----- From: allan To: Sent: Monday, August 28, 2000 7:17 PM Subject: Re: Kohler full-output at 120 volts? [RE-wrenches] > Gary and wrenches: > First, a caveat: We have been Kohler dealers since early '99 (the > distributor invited a few dealers in CO and NM, anticipating Y2K business, > and they were right). So we are most familiar with the 8.5 and 11 RMY air > cooled homeowner units that replaced the wonderful 6.5 RMY flathead-powered > unit of years past, and the smaller water-cooled RY/RZ units of 10, 12, and > 20kW. There are other models for other markets that I'm not familiar with, > and 17 and 22 kW models that don't derate well for our 6-9,000' elevations. > So these LP/natural gas units are what we have installed. > The reconnection diagrams are in Section 5 of the installation manuals > that come with the units. Basically, the generator has 4 stator leads; 2 > and 3 are tied together as neutral for 120/240 operation, and 1 and 3 are > tied together as neutral for straight 120V output. I will not say any more > here, to cover my rear. Check diagrams 5-1 thru 5-4 in the manual for > morecomplete info. > Onan Commercial units are also configurable to 120V. Their Marquis RV > series only comes 120. Some Hondas come with a switchable output, but I'm > not positive it's a bona fide full (balanced) 120V output. Wrenches? > > While we're on the subject, here's something that is usually overlooked > but is a serious safety issue. All the generators I've seen come internally > bonded neutral-to-ground. They have to, to protect dumb homeowners who > don't ground the units. If you connect the gennie ground lug in the output > to the home system ground (which you automatically will do if you use a > proper plug and cord, wired up normally), you will have a current-carrying > parallel path to your AC output neutral, as you will have two > neutral-to-ground bonds in the system when the generator is connected. I > have measured it with an amp-clamp. This is a major safety no-no. > 1) Break your neutral-to-ground bond if you can. Kohlers use two ground > lugs, side-by-side in the terminal area. Float the neutral stator wires; we > use a #6 split bolt with a floating splice. Onan something similar. Cheapo > units can't be unbonded, so: > 2) Run only hot and neutral wires between the two points. Tape off the > ground conductor if there is one (SO cord or the like) at both ends. Label > what you've done. > 3) Bond the gennie chassis to its own ground rod, that is separate from any > system grounding. Keep the gennie physically out of reach of anything > connected to ground in the house. > > I would appreciate any feedback on this, especially any inaccuracies in > what I've written. By the way, Dankoff is carrying the smaller Kohler units > for their dealers. Am I allowed to say this here?? > > Allan at Positive Energy > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gary Higbee, Solutions from the Land > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Date: Monday, August 28, 2000 3:23 PM > Subject: Kohler full-output at 120 volts? [RE-wrenches] > > > >Hi Wrenches, > > > >Allan at Positive E wrote "All Kohlers thru 12 or 20kW or so can be wired > >120 VAC output, so you don't have to match a pair of inverter/charger loads > >on each leg of 240 VAC output..." > > > >How this is done? > > > >I do mostly stand-alone systems, and haven't messed with generators much. > >I'm working with a client now, though, who's going to be using his Kohler > >propane generator (around 7kW) with a SW5548, 16 L-16's, running a Grundfos > >Model 10 SQ sub pump (9-10gpm measured at 425', "efficient," soft-start) > and > >general household loads. He'll be generator-charging until we add a couple > >KW of solar in the future (when the $ tree grows up!). > > > >If there's a way to get (balanced) full-output from the Kohler without a > >T/240 I'd love to know how ASAP. Thank You! > > > > > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Gary Higbee (ghigbee at efn.org) > > (541)607-1818 > > Solutions from the Land--solar, > > wind, and hydro site analysis, design, > > and installation assistance > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > >- - - - - - - > >To send a message: > > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > > >The archive of previous messages: > > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > www.homepower.com > > > >For info contact list moderator by email: > > michael.welch at homepower.com > >___________________________________________________________ > >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From allan at positivenergy.com Tue Aug 29 13:13:23 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 10:13:23 -0700 Subject: Kohler full-output at 120 volts? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.695810082-212058698-967569203@topica.com> Wrenches, Phil is correct on this; I was wrong. It's an important clarification. John Wiles goes through this pretty thoroughly in HP 72, and 73. Allan at Positive Energy -----Original Message----- From: Phil Undercuffler To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Date: Tuesday, August 29, 2000 9:11 AM Subject: Re: Kohler full-output at 120 volts? [RE-wrenches] >An important note of clarification about breaking the bond in the generator: > >I found a potential for misunderstanding in Allan's message. If you have a >genset that allows the bond to be broken internally, such as the Kohler >units, (Allan's note 1) I believe the genset should be grounded to the main >system ground. If you choose to drive a suplemental ground rod near the >genset, that rod should be connected to the main ground rod. > >However, if your genset's bond cannot be broken, as in most "contractor >specials," then follow Allan's notes 2&3. The idea is based on "seperately >derived systems" in the code, most commonly seen in farm outbuildings. >Multiple services spread out on a property, only one meter/disconnect/bond >point and NO ground wires, metal conduit, metal pipes, gutters, rebar, or >any other potential ground conductor between. No where in the code does it >state a minimum safe distance, so distance between the generator and any >grounded point in this case is going to be at the discretion of your common >sense and the athority having jurisdiction. > >By the way, I would like to know more about those 120/240 switches on some >Honda units. Do they allow full output at 120? > >Phil Undercuffler >Positive Energy >----- Original Message ----- >From: allan >To: >Sent: Monday, August 28, 2000 7:17 PM >Subject: Re: Kohler full-output at 120 volts? [RE-wrenches] > > >> Gary and wrenches: >> First, a caveat: We have been Kohler dealers since early '99 (the >> distributor invited a few dealers in CO and NM, anticipating Y2K business, >> and they were right). So we are most familiar with the 8.5 and 11 RMY air >> cooled homeowner units that replaced the wonderful 6.5 RMY >flathead-powered >> unit of years past, and the smaller water-cooled RY/RZ units of 10, 12, >and >> 20kW. There are other models for other markets that I'm not familiar >with, >> and 17 and 22 kW models that don't derate well for our 6-9,000' >elevations. >> So these LP/natural gas units are what we have installed. >> The reconnection diagrams are in Section 5 of the installation manuals >> that come with the units. Basically, the generator has 4 stator leads; 2 >> and 3 are tied together as neutral for 120/240 operation, and 1 and 3 are >> tied together as neutral for straight 120V output. I will not say any >more >> here, to cover my rear. Check diagrams 5-1 thru 5-4 in the manual for >> morecomplete info. >> Onan Commercial units are also configurable to 120V. Their Marquis RV >> series only comes 120. Some Hondas come with a switchable output, but I'm >> not positive it's a bona fide full (balanced) 120V output. Wrenches? >> >> While we're on the subject, here's something that is usually >overlooked >> but is a serious safety issue. All the generators I've seen come >internally >> bonded neutral-to-ground. They have to, to protect dumb homeowners who >> don't ground the units. If you connect the gennie ground lug in the >output >> to the home system ground (which you automatically will do if you use a >> proper plug and cord, wired up normally), you will have a current-carrying >> parallel path to your AC output neutral, as you will have two >> neutral-to-ground bonds in the system when the generator is connected. I >> have measured it with an amp-clamp. This is a major safety no-no. >> 1) Break your neutral-to-ground bond if you can. Kohlers use two ground >> lugs, side-by-side in the terminal area. Float the neutral stator wires; >we >> use a #6 split bolt with a floating splice. Onan something similar. >Cheapo >> units can't be unbonded, so: >> 2) Run only hot and neutral wires between the two points. Tape off the >> ground conductor if there is one (SO cord or the like) at both ends. >Label >> what you've done. >> 3) Bond the gennie chassis to its own ground rod, that is separate from >any >> system grounding. Keep the gennie physically out of reach of anything >> connected to ground in the house. >> >> I would appreciate any feedback on this, especially any inaccuracies >in >> what I've written. By the way, Dankoff is carrying the smaller Kohler >units >> for their dealers. Am I allowed to say this here?? >> >> Allan at Positive Energy >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Gary Higbee, Solutions from the Land >> To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >> Date: Monday, August 28, 2000 3:23 PM >> Subject: Kohler full-output at 120 volts? [RE-wrenches] >> >> >> >Hi Wrenches, >> > >> >Allan at Positive E wrote "All Kohlers thru 12 or 20kW or so can be wired >> >120 VAC output, so you don't have to match a pair of inverter/charger >loads >> >on each leg of 240 VAC output..." >> > >> >How this is done? >> > >> >I do mostly stand-alone systems, and haven't messed with generators much. >> >I'm working with a client now, though, who's going to be using his Kohler >> >propane generator (around 7kW) with a SW5548, 16 L-16's, running a >Grundfos >> >Model 10 SQ sub pump (9-10gpm measured at 425', "efficient," soft-start) >> and >> >general household loads. He'll be generator-charging until we add a >couple >> >KW of solar in the future (when the $ tree grows up!). >> > >> >If there's a way to get (balanced) full-output from the Kohler without a >> >T/240 I'd love to know how ASAP. Thank You! >> > >> > >> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> > Gary Higbee (ghigbee at efn.org) >> > (541)607-1818 >> > Solutions from the Land--solar, >> > wind, and hydro site analysis, design, >> > and installation assistance >> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> > >> > >> >- - - - - - - >> >To send a message: >> > RE-wrenches at topica.com >> > >> >The archive of previous messages: >> > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ >> > >> >To unsubscribe send a message to: >> > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com >> > >> >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: >> > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html >> > >> >Hosted by Home Power magazine: >> > www.homepower.com >> > >> >For info contact list moderator by email: >> > michael.welch at homepower.com >> >___________________________________________________________ >> >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >> >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics >> > >> >> - - - - - - - >> To send a message: >> RE-wrenches at topica.com >> >> The archive of previous messages: >> http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ >> >> To unsubscribe send a message to: >> RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com >> >> To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: >> www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html >> >> Hosted by Home Power magazine: >> www.homepower.com >> >> For info contact list moderator by email: >> michael.welch at homepower.com >> ___________________________________________________________ >> T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >> Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics >> > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Tue Aug 29 18:46:10 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 15:46:10 -0700 Subject: Generator Grounding [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1705399649-212058698-967589170@topica.com> Wrenches, I feel this is pretty important so can we start all over again as I'm a little slow. To review (for me) Don't ground the contractor specials unless its with the ground carried in the SO cord you are plugging into it? What are we calling "contractor specials"? Wouldn't this be pretty much any generator with plug ins? When is it appropriate to use to multiple ground rods (not bonded together)? For example the 48 volt array is 200' from the house and a non contractor generator is 50' on the other side of the house. Do you pull a ground out for the array neg. or do you bond the DC neg. to the ground at the house. If you don't pull a ground wire out to the array is it OK to drive a ground rod for equipment ground purposes only at the array and not bond this ground to the house (AC) ground rod? Assume you are not bonding the array neg. to the the equipment ground at the array. Now you pull 3 wires (2 phases and a neutral) out to the 240 generator. On this gen. is a equipment ground lug. Do you drive a ground rod for this or should you have pulled a 4th wire out for the equipment ground? I like to hear how ya'll do it? Travis Creswell Ozark Solar - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From windy at dankoffsolar.com Tue Aug 29 19:48:52 2000 From: windy at dankoffsolar.com (Windy Dankoff, Dankoff Solar) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 16:48:52 -0700 Subject: Inverter for home + recording studio [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2075106856-212058698-967592932@topica.com> We have an inquirie from a man who wants to use a single sine wave inverter for home and a part-time recording studio with both digital and analog audio equipment. His home includes power tools that need high surge. He already has a PV system with an old Trace mod-sine inverter. He wants to replace it with sine wave. He doesn't want two inverters with the associated separate wiring. We know that the Trace SW and PS inverters have a high frequency ripple. Do any of you guys know if that is likely to cause problems with recording and audio equipment? Thanks, Windy -- =========================== From the solar powered office of Windy Dankoff, President =========================== Dankoff Solar Products, Inc. Wholesale distributor of solar-electric equipment Manufacturer & distributor of solar water pumps 2810 Industrial Rd. Santa Fe, NM 87505 (505) 473-3800 FAX 473-3830 E-mail: info at dankoffsolar.com SEE OUR INFORMATIVE WEB SITE AT: http://www.dankoffsolar.com =========================== To contact Windy Dankoff directly: Most days I am at my home office e-mail: windy at dankoffsolar.com tel/fax: (505) 466-0059 ~ amateur radio KE5HV ~ =========================== - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From kurtj12 at aol.com Tue Aug 29 19:55:01 2000 From: kurtj12 at aol.com (kurtj12 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 16:55:01 -0700 Subject: lead in NY [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.884637934-951758591-967593301@topica.com> i have a lead in NY if anyone is interested. he's interested in a solar system. James Turner of Sanborn, NY 716-731-4804 Jphilturn at aol.com let me know if anyone is interested, so i know weather i should continue looking for help for him. thanx, kurt johnson the solar guys north carolina - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ellison at gisco.net Tue Aug 29 20:49:35 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison, Alternative Energy Systems) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 17:49:35 -0700 Subject: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.250316479-951758591-967554987@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1535940949-951758591-967596575@topica.com> I went to Sears for the kit to convert a dryer, they refused to sell me it without my proving that I was licensed to do gas work. Unfortunately no such license is available in New York. I was welcome to bring it in to have it done in their service department! If you are looking for a new dryer, look for one with a moisture sensor, it saves gas. Just made me think about it, Bob Ellison -----Original Message----- From: Holt Kelly [mailto:hkelly6 at ibm.net] Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2000 9:16 AM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: RE: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] Greetings, Please Note that when converting LP to NG or vice versa that not only is the main burner orifice changed, the regulator on the valve and the pilot orifice must be changed (millivolt control valves). These components should be in the conversion kit. One final note: some mfg's in the fireplace (gas) industry will not sell you a conversion kit - you have to send the burner to them($$$$$$)so be sure that a conversion kit is available from the mfg. of the appliance you are buying. -----Original Message----- From: allan [mailto:allan at positivenergy.com] Sent: Monday, August 28, 2000 7:50 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Re: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] Travis, ACEEE (202 429-8873; aceee.org) publishes a book called "Consumer Guide to Home Energy Savings" that lists appliance federal efficiency ratings, including washers. Nobody has rated dryers. I tell customers to get a Staber washer and any gas dryer (if they won't settle for a solar dryer--i.e. a clothesline). The Staber does the job very efficiently and is the only modern efficient unit that is still warranted if the mfgr. finds out it's running on inverter power. Really! Plus the Staber is set up for off-grid folks to service themselves, rather than being a "consumer unit of the appliance repair industry". All the dryers I've seen are convertible from LP to NG; it's an orifice change, available as a kit from the dealer. Dryer energy use seems more clothesly tied to how much water the washer removes on spin cycle than anything connected to the dryer. Some gas dryers have glow bars, but unlike gas stoves, thet cycle on and off to light the burner. Allan at Positive Energy -----Original Message----- From: Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Date: Monday, August 28, 2000 11:24 AM Subject: Re: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] >Thanks, Travis, for the watt hour figures on washers and Neptune. A table of >these contributed by various experiences of wrenches could be a valuable >reference. > >Until more than one inch foam insulation is used on refrigerators, I would >say manufacturers have NOT gone as far as they can. Those of you selling or >using Conserv freezer proves the benefit of better insulation. In my >experience you can cut power use in half by going from 1 to 2.5 or 3 inches >all around a refrigerator. Of course you cannot just add on outside a >freezer as the wall skin is used as a heat radiator!! > >Vestfrost / Conserv could build a larger one with very little increase in >power usage, because volume goes up with little surface area increase. The >factory rep is interested in pushing for this, so if you think there is a >market for a 15 cu ft or so, he asks that you call him and also call Kyocera >and get them to request it. > >Here are some tips about the Conserv Chest freezer: >It often comes with factory set inside temp range of -20 to - 5F. This is >too cold to make good energy sense and makes even the best ice cream to hard >to serve. We have discovered a way to change the range of the control knob >to -5 to +8 and that seems to work better, and cuts typical use from 1200 >watt hours a day to 850 on hottest days, as low as 500 watt hours in 70 >degree days. It takes a small hard to find torx driver which we loan >customers... but not having it here I cannot recall if size is number 7 or >8. > >The Vestfrost/conserv factory rep in US is Adrian Whitney Smith at >850-647-3889, . admarint at digitalexp.com. >very helpful with technical info that Kyocera people cannot seem to get. By >the way the rumor that the freezer is being discontinued is completely >false, he says. > >Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com >Backwoods Solar Electric Systems >> My newer (1 yr old) Amana 21 cu. ft bottom freezer fridge is using just >over >> 1.8 kWh's per day @ 80f. It's yellow tag rated it at 576 kwh's per >year. >> I found it to be using something like 1.2 when the kitchen was under 70f. >I >> subscribe to several energy trade journals and they are talking about the >> next generation of motor driven appliances are going to be using much more >> advanced motors within a few years. It seems that manufacturers have gone >> about as far as they can with non-motor efficiency improvements. It >sounds >> promising that within several years we should be able to appliances >locally >> that are ideal for RE systems. >> >> Travis Creswell >> Ozark Solar > > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From global at sover.net Tue Aug 29 21:44:44 2000 From: global at sover.net (Jeffrey Wolfe, Global Resources) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 18:44:44 -0700 Subject: Inverter for home + recording studio [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1417782676-951758591-967599884@topica.com> We have been powering several audio events lately, including a stage at SolarFest with live folk type music, an outside dance performance with recorded music of many varieties, and a local blues band (three of the members live off grid). No hum or other problems. In talking with David Pyles of the New England Anti Nuke Coalition, he relayed some info about kick drums being a problem. They apparently create a very large audio spike, and can trip the inverter on overload, or something like that. There is a cure for it, but I do not remember it, and it is not a problem unless you have a well amplified, snap action kick drum. David Pyles seems to know quite a bit about the live music aspects of off-grid. He has been coordinating the work of the "Sunplugged" group (www.sunplugged.com, David's email adress is also there as Webmaster) which is a bunch of us who do outside venue with portable solar. >From what I understand, it can also depend somewhat upon the equipment. A lot of the stuff has built in filters, (probably to take care of bad utility power!) and so is pretty forgiving. Jeff Jeffery D. Wolfe, P.E. Global Resource Options, LLP A Woman-Owned Vermont Limited Liability Partnership 4 Kibling Hill Road P.O. Box 51 Strafford, VT 05072 802/765-4632 802/765-9983 (Fax) global at sover.net www.globalresourceoptions.com ---------- From: Windy Dankoff, Dankoff Solar[SMTP:windy at dankoffsolar.com] Reply To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2000 7:48 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Inverter for home + recording studio [RE-wrenches] We have an inquirie from a man who wants to use a single sine wave inverter for home and a part-time recording studio with both digital and analog audio equipment. His home includes power tools that need high surge. He already has a PV system with an old Trace mod-sine inverter. He wants to replace it with sine wave. He doesn't want two inverters with the associated separate wiring. We know that the Trace SW and PS inverters have a high frequency ripple. Do any of you guys know if that is likely to cause problems with recording and audio equipment? Thanks, Windy -- =========================== From the solar powered office of Windy Dankoff, President =========================== Dankoff Solar Products, Inc. Wholesale distributor of solar-electric equipment Manufacturer & distributor of solar water pumps 2810 Industrial Rd. Santa Fe, NM 87505 (505) 473-3800 FAX 473-3830 E-mail: info at dankoffsolar.com SEE OUR INFORMATIVE WEB SITE AT: http://www.dankoffsolar.com =========================== To contact Windy Dankoff directly: Most days I am at my home office e-mail: windy at dankoffsolar.com tel/fax: (505) 466-0059 ~ amateur radio KE5HV ~ =========================== - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From allan at positivenergy.com Tue Aug 29 22:11:43 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 19:11:43 -0700 Subject: Generator Grounding [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1065818543-212058698-967601503@topica.com> >Wrenches, >Travis wrote: >Don't ground the contractor specials unless its with the ground carried in >the SO cord you are plugging into it? No. Ground the chassis to its own ground rod, which must be far enough from anything else in the home system, or anything connected to the home system ground, to prevent someone from touching both grounds at the same time and completing a ground loop between the two bonded systems. The point is to treat the generator as you would treat a separate outbuilding (referring to Wiles' discussion in HP72.) > >What are we calling "contractor specials"? Wouldn't this be pretty much any >generator with plug ins? Pretty much a good distinction. You could also figure it as any generator where the AC output neutral and chassis ground are internally bonded in the unit and can't be easily separated. > >When is it appropriate to use to multiple ground rods (not bonded together)? See Code Corner in HP72 and 73. > >For example the 48 volt array is 200' from the house and a non contractor >generator is 50' on the other side of the house. See Code Corner in HP 74. > >Do you pull a ground out for the array neg. or do you bond the DC neg. to >the ground at the house. See above item. To some degree it's your choice, depending on several variables, including wire used, lightning risk, length of run, AHJ preference... > >If you don't pull a ground wire out to the array is it OK to drive a ground >rod for equipment ground purposes only at the array and not bond this ground >to the house (AC) ground rod? Assume you are not bonding the array neg. to >the the equipment ground at the array. Not per code, unless you provide branch source circuit overcurrent protection on both + and - conductors. (Less certain on this--other wrenches?) In real life, as opposed to code compliance, I would probably do it at 12V, hesitant at 24, and not at 48--you can feel a fault at 48V. I prefer to run a ground wire from the system, and something like bare #6 stranded in the trench, to help make a good earth ground in our dry high desert soil. > >Now you pull 3 wires (2 phases and a neutral) out to the 240 generator. On >this gen. is a equipment ground lug. Do you drive a ground rod for this or >should you have pulled a 4th wire out for the equipment ground? 4th wire to ground rod on internally bonded units, with only the three current-carrying conductors heading elsewhere. On gennies where the bond can be floated, take all four wires (with neutral and ground unbonded) to the power system, where the neutral and ground both connect to their respective buss bars, which in most cases are bonded together at one point only (that is, one DC- to ground and one AC neutral to ground), usually in the Powercenter or DC disconnect and AC main panel. > >I like to hear how ya'll do it? Grounding on multiple-source systems like PV systems is grossly more complex than simple grid source-to-load power. It has reduced skilled electricians to quivering masses of jelly. Seriously, the confusion is understandable; don't kick yourself. Wiles is pretty good on this. By the way, he's better to talk with on the phone personally than in front of an audience--less intimidating, less abusive. I have gotten some good common sense answers to problems I have faced, even some practical solutions that aren't to the letter of the code. If he gets that you're trying to do the right thing, he's quite helpful. He's even gone to bat for us when our local inspector was interpreting part of Sec. 690 wrong and took it to the state head honcho. He's pretty accessible at 505 646-6105. I think his "Suggested Practices" book (based on the '96 code) is still available for free from Sandia Nat'l Lab, at 505 844-4383. Allan at Positive Energy > > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From econnect at snowcrest.net Wed Aug 30 09:48:09 2000 From: econnect at snowcrest.net (Bob-O Schultze, Electron Connection) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 06:48:09 -0700 Subject: Inverter for home + recording studio [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.2075106856-212058698-967592932@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.2075106856-212058698-967592932@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1225137634-951758591-967643289@topica.com> Windy, I've done many small music stages at Oregon Country Fair where they had a live feed to an FM broadcast. I've had great success with Exeltech. I've also sold them to folks with home recording studios and all report the machines are dead quiet. The problem is that it's not a transformer based machine, so no battery charging. They are available up to 4KVA with just about any input voltage you want up to 120VDC. Kinda spendy, but if he's doing quality recording, he already knows about spendy! Bob-O >We have an inquirie from a man who wants to use a single sine wave >inverter for home and a part-time recording studio with both digital >and analog audio equipment. His home includes power tools that need >high surge. > >He already has a PV system with an old Trace mod-sine inverter. He >wants to replace it with sine wave. He doesn't want two inverters >with the associated separate wiring. > >We know that the Trace SW and PS inverters have a high frequency >ripple. Do any of you guys know if that is likely to cause problems >with recording and audio equipment? > >Thanks, > >Windy > >-- > > =========================== > > From the solar powered office of > Windy Dankoff, President > > =========================== > >Dankoff Solar Products, Inc. > > Wholesale distributor of solar-electric equipment > Manufacturer & distributor of solar water pumps > >2810 Industrial Rd. >Santa Fe, NM 87505 > >(505) 473-3800 >FAX 473-3830 >E-mail: info at dankoffsolar.com > >SEE OUR INFORMATIVE WEB SITE AT: > >http://www.dankoffsolar.com > > =========================== > > To contact Windy Dankoff directly: > Most days I am at my home office > e-mail: windy at dankoffsolar.com > tel/fax: (505) 466-0059 > ~ amateur radio KE5HV ~ > > =========================== > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: >RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: >www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: >michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics Bob-O Schultze, Electron Connection PO Box 203, Hornbrook, CA 96044 800.945.7587 fax 530-475-3401 www.electronconnection.com - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunwise at win.bright.net Wed Aug 30 10:59:17 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (Kurt Nelson, SunWise) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 07:59:17 -0700 Subject: Inverter for home + recording studio [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.432461278-951758591-967647557@topica.com> >>We have an inquirie from a man who wants to use a single sine wave >>inverter for home and a part-time recording studio AND >>He already has a PV system with an old Trace mod-sine inverter. >> >>Hey Windy, I had a client who had a slight buzz in his stereo on his home system powered with a Trace DR3624. He also noticed the usual small glitches on TV reception though he was unconcerned about the TV. I spoke to Gary at Exeltech about adding one of his small (250 watt) inverters dedicated to the stereo and TV (same battery). Gary said that the Trace would not put garbage onto the exeltech and he was right. No buzz on the stereo and still running the rest of the house/shop loads (and battery charging capibility) from the Trace. Gary did say something about the Exeltecks ability to put "stuff" onto the Trace, but was quite sure the Trace would not put any onto the Exeltech. On the flip-side, I know of someone with a Heart Mod-square AND an Exeltech who does both digital and standard recordings and has experienced some problems with his rig. Don't know if this is equipment incompatibility or a problem with grounding/wiring/etc. I am forwarding your original message to him in hopes he will contact you directly with more info. Kurt Nelson SOLutions >> >>- - - - - - - >>To send a message: >>RE-wrenches at topica.com >> >>The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ >> >>To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com >> >>To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: >>www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html >> >>Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com >> >>For info contact list moderator by email: >>michael.welch at homepower.com >>___________________________________________________________ >>T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >>Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > >Bob-O Schultze, Electron Connection >PO Box 203, Hornbrook, CA 96044 >800.945.7587 fax 530-475-3401 >www.electronconnection.com > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Wed Aug 30 12:22:16 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 09:22:16 -0700 Subject: Inverter for home + recording studio [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.432461278-951758591-967647557@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1873258678-951758591-967652536@topica.com> We had a Trace SW2512 that would dump a computer when a worm drive saw was started. I added 250 watt Exeltech to power the computers and they STILL dumped when saw was started on the Trace. I discovered the Trace was kicking back high voltage spikes to the battery and tripping Exeltech high voltage cut off at 19 volts. Chokes on DC line to Exeltech cured it. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems > >>We have an inquirie from a man who wants to use a single sine wave > >>inverter for home and a part-time recording studio AND > >>He already has a PV system with an old Trace mod-sine inverter. > >> > >>Hey Windy, > > I had a client who had a slight buzz in his stereo on his home system > powered with a Trace DR3624. He also noticed the usual small glitches on TV > reception though he was unconcerned about the TV. I spoke to Gary at > Exeltech about adding one of his small (250 watt) inverters dedicated to the > stereo and TV (same battery). Gary said that the Trace would not put > garbage onto the exeltech and he was right. No buzz on the stereo and still > running the rest of the house/shop loads (and battery charging capibility) > from the Trace. Gary did say something about the Exeltecks ability to put > "stuff" onto the Trace, but was quite sure the Trace would not put any onto > the Exeltech. > > On the flip-side, I know of someone with a Heart Mod-square AND an Exeltech > who does both digital and standard recordings and has experienced some > problems with his rig. Don't know if this is equipment incompatibility or a > problem with grounding/wiring/etc. I am forwarding your original message to > him in hopes he will contact you directly with more info. > > Kurt Nelson > SOLutions > >> > >>- - - - - - - > >>To send a message: > >>RE-wrenches at topica.com > >> > >>The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >> > >>To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >> > >>To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > >>www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >> > >>Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com > >> > >>For info contact list moderator by email: > >>michael.welch at homepower.com > >>___________________________________________________________ > >>T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > >>Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > > >Bob-O Schultze, Electron Connection > >PO Box 203, Hornbrook, CA 96044 > >800.945.7587 fax 530-475-3401 > >www.electronconnection.com > > > >- - - - - - - > >To send a message: > > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > > >The archive of previous messages: > > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > www.homepower.com > > > >For info contact list moderator by email: > > michael.welch at homepower.com > >___________________________________________________________ > >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > > > > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solarjon at netshel.net Wed Aug 30 12:38:34 2000 From: solarjon at netshel.net (Jonathan Hill) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 09:38:34 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1335108920-212058698-966714846@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.39581364-951758591-966681256@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1335108920-212058698-966714846@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.410662219-212058698-967653514@topica.com> >Steve- >Thanks for the names for Texas installers. What do you other >wrenches think about compiling a national list of PV installers, >licences, and whether or not they will install stuff purchased from >other dealers. many of us sell to areas other than our own and the >customers would love to have someone local to do the install. What >do you think? Jon HIll >Central Texas: Joe Bredehoeft, Wimberly Texas. (830) 833-2228. Advisor for >solar electric. >South Texas: SBT Designs will travel to perform solar electric installations >or repair. Certified technician with degree in electronics. (210) 698-7109 >in Boerne, Texas. sbtdesigns at stic.net >Austin Texas area: Meridian Energy Systems, Andrew McCalla, design, >installation, service. P O Box 5810 Austin TX 78763 Phone (512) 477-3050 >www.meridiansolar.com >Texas, LA, AR, MS, AL, Florida panhandle. $45/hour minimum 1 day. Code >compliant installation. Petit's Electronics, (504) 758-8284. > > >Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com >Backwoods Solar Electric Systems >----- Original Message ----- >From: John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind >To: >Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2000 3:34 AM >Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] > > > > Hi Gang, > > I just received an email from someone in Deep Southern Texas. Do we >have > > any wrenches from that area yet. Travis, I think you were the closest one > > the last time I had a Texas request. This may not pan out to be a sale as >he > > uses 1500kwh a month and wants to go solar. Then again, there are some > > people with money in Texas. > > > > John > > Central Vermont Solar and Wind. > > > > - - - - - - - > > To send a message: > > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > > > The archive of previous messages: > > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > www.homepower.com > > > > For info contact list moderator by email: > > michael.welch at homepower.com > > ___________________________________________________________ > > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics ----------------- Sierra Solar Systems 109-N Argall Way Nevada City, CA 95959 tech info and foreign orders: (530) 265-8441 order line: (800) 51-SOLAR (US only) FAX: (530) 265-6151 e-mail: world wide web: Because of the high volume of e-mail to which I respond, please leave _all_ of the previous message (unless it's unbearable) in your reply so I can better remember your original message. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solarjon at netshel.net Wed Aug 30 12:48:32 2000 From: solarjon at netshel.net (Jonathan Hill) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 09:48:32 -0700 Subject: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1573328322-212058698-967479992@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1573328322-212058698-967479992@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1947785951-212058698-967654112@topica.com> >Travis- I agree with leaving the dryers out of the calcs, as they will typically be used in the winter when solar is minimum. We do include the washers, however, as many of our customers do run the washers off their systems in the summer. Wind systems, of course are the exception. The 100 watt-hr for the Neptune washer seems really low. Where can we get these? I don't think the Staber could be any less. Regarding the refrigerators, I think lots of progress can still be made besides motor improvements. Check out the Sunfrost: two compressors and the evaporator, top-mounted, 3-4" urethane insulation, and lack of thermal bridges- all of this could be incorporated into conventional units, without increasing the cost too much. Jon HIll >I typically leave the washer and dryers off my sizing calculations and just >accept that they will only be operated when the generator is running so I >really haven't paid much attention to their energy ratings. I just make >sure the inverter(s) can start them. > >Does anyone have any recommendations for gas dryers for off grid houses? >Many cook stoves are easily field convertible from nat. gas to propane and >back. Is this true for the typical gas dryer? > >Has anyone used a power meter to find out how many watt hours the "typical" >dryer takes to dry the "typical" load? My 10 year old washing machine takes >250 watt hours to do a full load of clothes and I have measured a customers >Neptune washer and found it to take right at 100 watt hours for a load. > >My newer (1 yr old) Amana 21 cu. ft bottom freezer fridge is using just over >1.8 kWh's per day @ 80f. It's yellow tag rated it at 576 kwh's per year. >I found it to be using something like 1.2 when the kitchen was under 70f. I >subscribe to several energy trade journals and they are talking about the >next generation of motor driven appliances are going to be using much more >advanced motors within a few years. It seems that manufacturers have gone >about as far as they can with non-motor efficiency improvements. It sounds >promising that within several years we should be able to appliances locally >that are ideal for RE systems. > >Travis Creswell >Ozark Solar > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics ----------------- Sierra Solar Systems 109-N Argall Way Nevada City, CA 95959 tech info and foreign orders: (530) 265-8441 order line: (800) 51-SOLAR (US only) FAX: (530) 265-6151 e-mail: world wide web: Because of the high volume of e-mail to which I respond, please leave _all_ of the previous message (unless it's unbearable) in your reply so I can better remember your original message. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From bob at energyoutfitters.com Wed Aug 30 13:11:12 2000 From: bob at energyoutfitters.com (Bob Maynard, Energy Outfitters) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 10:11:12 -0700 Subject: Inverter for home + recording studio [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.2075106856-212058698-967592932@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.821845203-951758591-967655472@topica.com> Windy, We supplied a stacked set of 4024's for an off grid digital recording studio here in southern Oregon about 3 years ago. They are very pleased with the system and have not reported any problems with noise. They record Reggae primarily. Bob Maynard Energy Outfitters 800-467-6527 "Windy Dankoff, Dankoff Solar" wrote: > We have an inquirie from a man who wants to use a single sine wave > inverter for home and a part-time recording studio with both digital > and analog audio equipment. His home includes power tools that need > high surge. > > He already has a PV system with an old Trace mod-sine inverter. He > wants to replace it with sine wave. He doesn't want two inverters > with the associated separate wiring. > > We know that the Trace SW and PS inverters have a high frequency > ripple. Do any of you guys know if that is likely to cause problems > with recording and audio equipment? > > Thanks, > > Windy > > -- > > =========================== > > From the solar powered office of > Windy Dankoff, President > > =========================== > > Dankoff Solar Products, Inc. > > Wholesale distributor of solar-electric equipment > Manufacturer & distributor of solar water pumps > > 2810 Industrial Rd. > Santa Fe, NM 87505 > > (505) 473-3800 > FAX 473-3830 > E-mail: info at dankoffsolar.com > > SEE OUR INFORMATIVE WEB SITE AT: > > http://www.dankoffsolar.com > > =========================== > > To contact Windy Dankoff directly: > Most days I am at my home office > e-mail: windy at dankoffsolar.com > tel/fax: (505) 466-0059 > ~ amateur radio KE5HV ~ > > =========================== > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From michael.welch at homepower.com Wed Aug 30 13:16:11 2000 From: michael.welch at homepower.com (Michael Welch, Home Power) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 10:16:11 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.410662219-212058698-967653514@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1335108920-212058698-966714846@topica.com> <0.1300002502.39581364-951758591-966681256@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1335108920-212058698-966714846@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2002750342-951758591-967655771@topica.com> Jonathan Hill wrote at 09:38 AM 08/30/2000 -0700: >>Steve- >>Thanks for the names for Texas installers. What do you other wrenches think about compiling a national list of PV installers, licences, and whether or not they will install stuff purchased from other dealers. many of us sell to areas other than our own and the customers would love to have someone local to do the install. What do you think? >Jon HIll Hey Jon, this is a perfect job for IPP. IPP could be the trade organization that RE installing dealers need. Not only can they represent membership interests in political and engineering policy matters, they could become a recognized referral agency for just the situations described here. Michael Welch ------------------------ "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." Edward Abbey Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com Associate Editor, Home Power magazine Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From bob at energyoutfitters.com Wed Aug 30 13:40:12 2000 From: bob at energyoutfitters.com (Bob Maynard, Energy Outfitters) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 10:40:12 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.39581364-951758591-966681256@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1335108920-212058698-966714846@topica.com> <0.1300002502.410662219-212058698-967653514@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.692014093-212058698-967657212@topica.com> Jon, I think its a great idea. We take calls everyday from all over the country from people looking for installation and repair referals. Bob Maynard Energy Outfitters 800-GO-SOLAR Jonathan Hill wrote: > >Steve- > >Thanks for the names for Texas installers. What do you other > >wrenches think about compiling a national list of PV installers, > >licences, and whether or not they will install stuff purchased from > >other dealers. many of us sell to areas other than our own and the > >customers would love to have someone local to do the install. What > >do you think? > Jon HIll > > >Central Texas: Joe Bredehoeft, Wimberly Texas. (830) 833-2228. Advisor for > >solar electric. > >South Texas: SBT Designs will travel to perform solar electric installations > >or repair. Certified technician with degree in electronics. (210) 698-7109 > >in Boerne, Texas. sbtdesigns at stic.net > >Austin Texas area: Meridian Energy Systems, Andrew McCalla, design, > >installation, service. P O Box 5810 Austin TX 78763 Phone (512) 477-3050 > >www.meridiansolar.com > >Texas, LA, AR, MS, AL, Florida panhandle. $45/hour minimum 1 day. Code > >compliant installation. Petit's Electronics, (504) 758-8284. > > > > > >Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com > >Backwoods Solar Electric Systems > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind > >To: > >Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2000 3:34 AM > >Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] > > > > > > > Hi Gang, > > > I just received an email from someone in Deep Southern Texas. Do we > >have > > > any wrenches from that area yet. Travis, I think you were the closest one > > > the last time I had a Texas request. This may not pan out to be a sale as > >he > > > uses 1500kwh a month and wants to go solar. Then again, there are some > > > people with money in Texas. > > > > > > John > > > Central Vermont Solar and Wind. > > > > > > - - - - - - - > > > To send a message: > > > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > > > > > The archive of previous messages: > > > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > > > > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > > > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > > > > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > > > > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > > www.homepower.com > > > > > > For info contact list moderator by email: > > > michael.welch at homepower.com > > > ___________________________________________________________ > > > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > > > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > > > > > >- - - - - - - > >To send a message: > > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > > >The archive of previous messages: > > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > www.homepower.com > > > >For info contact list moderator by email: > > michael.welch at homepower.com > >___________________________________________________________ > >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > ----------------- > > Sierra Solar Systems > 109-N Argall Way > Nevada City, CA 95959 > tech info and foreign orders: (530) 265-8441 > order line: (800) 51-SOLAR (US only) FAX: (530) 265-6151 > e-mail: > world wide web: > > Because of the high volume of e-mail to which I respond, please > leave _all_ of the previous message (unless it's unbearable) in > your reply so I can better remember your original message. > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From i2p at aol.com Wed Aug 30 13:58:13 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (Don Loweburg, Offline) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 10:58:13 -0700 Subject: Inverter for home + recording studio [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.720462393-212058698-967658293@topica.com> In a message dated 08/29/2000 4:49:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time, windy at dankoffsolar.com writes: << We know that the Trace SW and PS inverters have a high frequency ripple. Do any of you guys know if that is likely to cause problems with recording and audio equipment? >> No experience with the PS for this application. Sws have been acceptable. I'm hedging because high tech-audiophiles are very critical. My own experience running audio here on my SW is good. Don Loweburg - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From i2p at aol.com Wed Aug 30 14:18:39 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (Don Loweburg, Offline) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 11:18:39 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.31871153-212058698-967659519@topica.com> In a message dated 08/30/2000 10:16:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time, michael.welch at homepower.com writes: << Hey Jon, this is a perfect job for IPP. IPP could be the trade organization that RE installing dealers need. Not only can they represent membership interests in political and engineering policy matters, they could become a recognized referral agency for just the situations described here. Michael Welch >> A great idea. Also great timing as we want to upgrade the IPP web site and this could be a major service, both to customers and dealers. IPP membership would not be required, but welcome. Many on the wrenches list are also IPP members already, so this should be a natural. What say you , Wrenchs and IPP members? I'm all for it. Thanks Michael and Jon for a brilliant idea. Don Loweburg - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From gosolar at win.bright.net Wed Aug 30 15:27:26 2000 From: gosolar at win.bright.net (Chris LaForge, Great Northern Solar) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 12:27:26 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.31871153-212058698-967659519@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1589563147-951758591-967663646@topica.com> Greetings: It seems like a good thing for the IPP to get involved in from my perspective. Chris LaForge Great Northern Solar 77450 Evergreen Road, Suite #1 Port Wing, WI 54865 715-774-3374 - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Wed Aug 30 16:56:05 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 13:56:05 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.31871153-212058698-967659519@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.510217662-951758591-967668965@topica.com> A directory of installers would be great. Paul Cunningham had such a list, maybe does still maintain it on line, no longer in print. I used to refer to that a lot when it was in reasonably recent date. There is the problem of some unqualified people getting on the list though... Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems > Michael Welch > >> > A great idea. Also great timing as we want to upgrade the IPP web site and > this could be a major service, both to customers and dealers. IPP membership > would not be required, but welcome. Many on the wrenches list are also IPP > members already, so this should be a natural. What say you , Wrenchs and IPP > members? I'm all for it. Thanks Michael and Jon for a brilliant idea. > > Don Loweburg > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From michael.welch at homepower.com Wed Aug 30 17:19:33 2000 From: michael.welch at homepower.com (Michael Welch, Home Power) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 14:19:33 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.510217662-951758591-967668965@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.31871153-212058698-967659519@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.558515895-951758591-967670373@topica.com> Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar wrote at 01:56 PM 08/30/2000 -0700: >A directory of installers would be great. Paul Cunningham had such a list, >maybe does still maintain it on line, no longer in print. I used to refer >to that a lot when it was in reasonably recent date. There is the problem >of some unqualified people getting on the list though... Did you mean Paul Wilkins of PV Network News? His list got melded into Home Power's InBiz database a couple of years ago. Anyone that wants to can search or add their listing to our InBiz database (or even download it for their own purposes) at www.homepower.com/inbiz.htm Michael Welch ------------------------ "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." Edward Abbey Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com Associate Editor, Home Power magazine Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From i2p at aol.com Wed Aug 30 17:19:35 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (Don Loweburg, Offline) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 14:19:35 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.64154759-951758591-967670375@topica.com> In a message dated 08/30/2000 2:09:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time, steve at backwoodssolar.com writes: << There is the problem of some unqualified people getting on the list though... >> I agree Steve. This is a potential problem. Any suggestions ? How does a wrench qualify to be on this list? Reputation, years in business, license? What are we comfortable with.? Don - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Wed Aug 30 17:53:06 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 14:53:06 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.31871153-212058698-967659519@topica.com> <0.1300002502.558515895-951758591-967670373@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1828334612-212058698-967672386@topica.com> Yes, Paul Wilkins was what I was thinking! Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems A catalog business on a mountain 2 miles from utility lines, powered entirely by our catalog products. IF UTILITY POWER IS 1/2 MILE OR MORE FROM YOUR SITE, get our free 160 page solar-electric Planning Guide/Catalog. (Your postal address required - Our list is never given or sold). Phone(208)263-4290 Fax (208) 265-4788 in Idaho, USA ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Welch, Home Power To: Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 2:19 PM Subject: Re: Referral [RE-wrenches] > Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar wrote at 01:56 PM 08/30/2000 -0700: > > >A directory of installers would be great. Paul Cunningham had such a list, > >maybe does still maintain it on line, no longer in print. I used to refer > >to that a lot when it was in reasonably recent date. There is the problem > >of some unqualified people getting on the list though... > > Did you mean Paul Wilkins of PV Network News? His list got melded into Home Power's InBiz database a couple of years ago. > > Anyone that wants to can search or add their listing to our InBiz database (or even download it for their own purposes) at www.homepower.com/inbiz.htm > > Michael Welch > > ------------------------ > "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." > > Edward Abbey > > Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com > Associate Editor, Home Power magazine > Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance > (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 > > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Wed Aug 30 18:00:32 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 15:00:32 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.64154759-951758591-967670375@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1581062585-212058698-967672832@topica.com> When I refer people I always start with the statement that that person is a separate business and they will be contracting with that person entirely separately from my business, and that I cannot be sure of the quality work they will receive. The customer must evaluate the service provider himself. But then if its someone I know does a good job I may add my personal reference for the other business, how many years in business and type of experience I am aware of. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems > of some unqualified people getting on the list though... >> > I agree Steve. This is a potential problem. Any suggestions ? How does a > wrench qualify to be on this list? Reputation, years in business, license? > What are we comfortable with.? > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From global at sover.net Wed Aug 30 20:45:53 2000 From: global at sover.net (Jeffrey Wolfe, Global Resources) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 17:45:53 -0700 Subject: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1086075896-212058698-967682753@topica.com> The Staber uses 110 to 130 W-hrs per load, based upon full loads (18 pounds) and a Brand meter measurement at our house. Powered from a Trace SW4024, in line tie sell back mode. I like the Staber better than the Neptune for a few reasons: Larger load capacity. More stainless steel, and longer warranties. Warranteed to run on inverter power. Made to be repaired, if it needs it, by the consumer. Very fast (extraction speed) spin cycle, shortens drying time. And the best reason, I can buy these at wholesale, and sell at retail. Try and get wholesale on a Maytag, or anything else... And the worst reason, the price is higher, and there is not enough room to discount the difference. Jeff Jeffery D. Wolfe, P.E. Global Resource Options, LLP A Woman-Owned Vermont Limited Liability Partnership 4 Kibling Hill Road P.O. Box 51 Strafford, VT 05072 802/765-4632 802/765-9983 (Fax) global at sover.net www.globalresourceoptions.com ---------- From: Jonathan Hill[SMTP:solarjon at netshel.net] Reply To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 12:48 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Re: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] >Travis- I agree with leaving the dryers out of the calcs, as they will typically be used in the winter when solar is minimum. We do include the washers, however, as many of our customers do run the washers off their systems in the summer. Wind systems, of course are the exception. The 100 watt-hr for the Neptune washer seems really low. Where can we get these? I don't think the Staber could be any less. Regarding the refrigerators, I think lots of progress can still be made besides motor improvements. Check out the Sunfrost: two compressors and the evaporator, top-mounted, 3-4" urethane insulation, and lack of thermal bridges- all of this could be incorporated into conventional units, without increasing the cost too much. Jon HIll >I typically leave the washer and dryers off my sizing calculations and just >accept that they will only be operated when the generator is running so I >really haven't paid much attention to their energy ratings. I just make >sure the inverter(s) can start them. > >Does anyone have any recommendations for gas dryers for off grid houses? >Many cook stoves are easily field convertible from nat. gas to propane and >back. Is this true for the typical gas dryer? > >Has anyone used a power meter to find out how many watt hours the "typical" >dryer takes to dry the "typical" load? My 10 year old washing machine takes >250 watt hours to do a full load of clothes and I have measured a customers >Neptune washer and found it to take right at 100 watt hours for a load. > >My newer (1 yr old) Amana 21 cu. ft bottom freezer fridge is using just over >1.8 kWh's per day @ 80f. It's yellow tag rated it at 576 kwh's per year. >I found it to be using something like 1.2 when the kitchen was under 70f. I >subscribe to several energy trade journals and they are talking about the >next generation of motor driven appliances are going to be using much more >advanced motors within a few years. It seems that manufacturers have gone >about as far as they can with non-motor efficiency improvements. It sounds >promising that within several years we should be able to appliances locally >that are ideal for RE systems. > >Travis Creswell >Ozark Solar > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics ----------------- Sierra Solar Systems 109-N Argall Way Nevada City, CA 95959 tech info and foreign orders: (530) 265-8441 order line: (800) 51-SOLAR (US only) FAX: (530) 265-6151 e-mail: world wide web: Because of the high volume of e-mail to which I respond, please leave _all_ of the previous message (unless it's unbearable) in your reply so I can better remember your original message. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ellison at gisco.net Wed Aug 30 23:17:34 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison, Alternative Energy Systems) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 20:17:34 -0700 Subject: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1947785951-212058698-967654112@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1198498443-212058698-967691854@topica.com> The last info that I had on the Neptune is that it is NOT an efficient washer. It draws considerably more than the Staber and a HUGE amount of water, I have been told that it constantly replaces water to cut down on sudsing..... So it uses lots of water and pump run time. Bob Ellison -----Original Message----- From: Jonathan Hill [mailto:solarjon at netshel.net] Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 12:49 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Re: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] >Travis- I agree with leaving the dryers out of the calcs, as they will typically be used in the winter when solar is minimum. We do include the washers, however, as many of our customers do run the washers off their systems in the summer. Wind systems, of course are the exception. The 100 watt-hr for the Neptune washer seems really low. Where can we get these? I don't think the Staber could be any less. Regarding the refrigerators, I think lots of progress can still be made besides motor improvements. Check out the Sunfrost: two compressors and the evaporator, top-mounted, 3-4" urethane insulation, and lack of thermal bridges- all of this could be incorporated into conventional units, without increasing the cost too much. Jon HIll >I typically leave the washer and dryers off my sizing calculations and just >accept that they will only be operated when the generator is running so I >really haven't paid much attention to their energy ratings. I just make >sure the inverter(s) can start them. > >Does anyone have any recommendations for gas dryers for off grid houses? >Many cook stoves are easily field convertible from nat. gas to propane and >back. Is this true for the typical gas dryer? > >Has anyone used a power meter to find out how many watt hours the "typical" >dryer takes to dry the "typical" load? My 10 year old washing machine takes >250 watt hours to do a full load of clothes and I have measured a customers >Neptune washer and found it to take right at 100 watt hours for a load. > >My newer (1 yr old) Amana 21 cu. ft bottom freezer fridge is using just over >1.8 kWh's per day @ 80f. It's yellow tag rated it at 576 kwh's per year. >I found it to be using something like 1.2 when the kitchen was under 70f. I >subscribe to several energy trade journals and they are talking about the >next generation of motor driven appliances are going to be using much more >advanced motors within a few years. It seems that manufacturers have gone >about as far as they can with non-motor efficiency improvements. It sounds >promising that within several years we should be able to appliances locally >that are ideal for RE systems. > >Travis Creswell >Ozark Solar > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics ----------------- Sierra Solar Systems 109-N Argall Way Nevada City, CA 95959 tech info and foreign orders: (530) 265-8441 order line: (800) 51-SOLAR (US only) FAX: (530) 265-6151 e-mail: world wide web: Because of the high volume of e-mail to which I respond, please leave _all_ of the previous message (unless it's unbearable) in your reply so I can better remember your original message. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Wed Aug 30 23:26:29 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 20:26:29 -0700 Subject: Generator Grounding [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.890153157-951758591-967692389@topica.com> Allan, Thanks for your answers on the grounding. We do it a little different but I was curious to see how you would answer. We can't even get a inspector out to most of our jobs. I have only been inspected a handful of times on solar (my shop and my house make up the majority of them) and never got busted on any jobs. About the only time I even get inspected any more is for new 3 phase services over 600 amps. Isn't that a joke? Never met the guy in person. But have had a few phone conversations with him and he has been pretty helpful. He doesn't come to the Ozarks to often and jokingly alludes that we might be a little backwards around here. Sounds like he might be a pain in person,eh. Travis Creswell Ozark Solar ---------- >From: allan >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Subject: Re: Generator Grounding [RE-wrenches] >Date: Tue, Aug 29, 2000, 9:11 PM > >Wiles is pretty good on this. By the way, he's better to talk with on the >phone personally than in front of an audience--less intimidating, less >abusive. I have gotten some good common sense answers to problems I have >faced, even some practical solutions that aren't to the letter of the code. >If he gets that you're trying to do the right thing, he's quite helpful. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From kurtj12 at aol.com Wed Aug 30 23:27:30 2000 From: kurtj12 at aol.com (kurtj12 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 20:27:30 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.990185459-212058698-967692450@topica.com> Jon add me to the list. i think its a great idea and on of the main reasons i joined the wrenches, so that i could pass on all the leads i was getting from outside my area and hopefully get some leads from all you guys out there. we all can help each other out this way. if there is anything i can do to help organize this please let me know. thanx kurt johnson the solar guys north carolina - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From kurtj12 at aol.com Wed Aug 30 23:29:50 2000 From: kurtj12 at aol.com (kurtj12 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 20:29:50 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2072360870-212058698-967692590@topica.com> i hate to sound ignorant, but how can i become an IPP member? kurt johnson the solar guys - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Wed Aug 30 23:35:17 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 20:35:17 -0700 Subject: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.543692030-951758591-967692917@topica.com> Sounds like the Staber is a pretty good unit. I like the "owner repairable" features. Maybe I should measure this customers Neptune again and make sure it's a full load. It doesn't to mind being ran by a dual 4048's and his been going along for a year or so. The last price I saw was either $900 or a $1000. The 100 watt-hr for the Neptune washer seems really low. >Where can we get these? Sears and others retailers like them. I really like checking all the Yellow Tags while I'm there. My wife thinks I'm nuts. I think you will find that in terms of watt hours per cu.ft the a comparable AC SunFrost still uses more than the Amana I spoke of. DC might be even as you would gain the losses from the inverter. Also, the Amana is burning at least 250 watt hours per day self defrosting, a feature that the state of the art SunFrost doesn't have. And of course the SunFrost costs a whole lot more (3 times +) assuming your customer can live the freight damage every one of mine showed up with. The last time we all talked about fridges I think some people had some kWh numbers the were higher than the listed specs for the SunFrost but not as bad off as the Conserves. Travis - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cpae1 at aol.com Wed Aug 30 23:38:49 2000 From: cpae1 at aol.com (Frank Fowler, Crystal Pines Alt. Energy ) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 20:38:49 -0700 Subject: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1511877017-951758591-967693129@topica.com> I have a customer who purchased a Frigidare washer and kept having problems getting the thing to run correctly. After many service calls to repair the problem, the service tech reported to the company that the machine was being run from inverter power, and they canceled the warranty. Needless to say my customer was ticked off and told them to stick it where the sun don't shine. He raised such a fuss that they finally just took it back and he purchased a very simple low-tech washer. Everything is fine now. He has a DR3624 inverter and I was informed that it should run OK, but it didn't. Fortunately, he was very good about the whole thing and he is still a loyal customer. Lesson learned: If your customer is going to use a mod. sine inverter, get a Staber or a low-tech washer with no digital components. Frank Fowler Crystal Pines Alternative Energy cpae1 at aol.com - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From telliot at wagonmaker.com Thu Aug 31 00:16:12 2000 From: telliot at wagonmaker.com (Tom Elliot) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 21:16:12 -0700 Subject: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1198498443-212058698-967691854@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.939723306-951758591-967695372@topica.com> Our Neptune is incredibly efficient, using about the same as quoted for the Staber as measured by our Brand meter. It also doesn't seem to use nearly the amount of water as a standard top loader. I measured 124 watt-hours to do a load using the max-extraction spin cycle. I'm sold on the Neptune. Tom Elliot Guffey Energy Works Solar Energy Education http://www.wagonmaker.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Ellison, Alternative Energy Systems" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 9:17 PM Subject: RE: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] > The last info that I had on the Neptune is that it is NOT an efficient > washer. It draws considerably more than the Staber and a HUGE amount of > water, I have been told that it constantly replaces water to cut down on > sudsing..... So it uses lots of water and pump run time. > > Bob Ellison > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jonathan Hill [mailto:solarjon at netshel.net] > Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 12:49 PM > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Subject: Re: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] > > >Travis- > I agree with leaving the dryers out of the calcs, as they will > typically be used in the winter when solar is minimum. We do include > the washers, however, as many of our customers do run the washers off > their systems in the summer. Wind systems, of course are the > exception. The 100 watt-hr for the Neptune washer seems really low. > Where can we get these? I don't think the Staber could be any less. > Regarding the refrigerators, I think lots of progress can still be > made besides motor improvements. Check out the Sunfrost: two > compressors and the evaporator, top-mounted, 3-4" urethane > insulation, and lack of thermal bridges- all of this could be > incorporated into conventional units, without increasing the cost too > much. > Jon HIll > > >I typically leave the washer and dryers off my sizing calculations and just > >accept that they will only be operated when the generator is running so I > >really haven't paid much attention to their energy ratings. I just make > >sure the inverter(s) can start them. > > > >Does anyone have any recommendations for gas dryers for off grid houses? > >Many cook stoves are easily field convertible from nat. gas to propane and > >back. Is this true for the typical gas dryer? > > > >Has anyone used a power meter to find out how many watt hours the "typical" > >dryer takes to dry the "typical" load? My 10 year old washing machine > takes > >250 watt hours to do a full load of clothes and I have measured a customers > >Neptune washer and found it to take right at 100 watt hours for a load. > > > >My newer (1 yr old) Amana 21 cu. ft bottom freezer fridge is using just > over > >1.8 kWh's per day @ 80f. It's yellow tag rated it at 576 kwh's per year. > >I found it to be using something like 1.2 when the kitchen was under 70f. > I > >subscribe to several energy trade journals and they are talking about the > >next generation of motor driven appliances are going to be using much more > >advanced motors within a few years. It seems that manufacturers have gone > >about as far as they can with non-motor efficiency improvements. It sounds > >promising that within several years we should be able to appliances locally > >that are ideal for RE systems. > > > >Travis Creswell > >Ozark Solar > > > >- - - - - - - > >To send a message: > > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > > >The archive of previous messages: > > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > www.homepower.com > > > >For info contact list moderator by email: > > michael.welch at homepower.com > >___________________________________________________________ > >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > ----------------- > > Sierra Solar Systems > 109-N Argall Way > Nevada City, CA 95959 > tech info and foreign orders: (530) 265-8441 > order line: (800) 51-SOLAR (US only) FAX: (530) 265-6151 > e-mail: > world wide web: > > Because of the high volume of e-mail to which I respond, please > leave _all_ of the previous message (unless it's unbearable) in > your reply so I can better remember your original message. > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From wstahle at slonet.org Thu Aug 31 00:21:54 2000 From: wstahle at slonet.org (Wallace Stahle, Future Elec. Energy Co.) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 21:21:54 -0700 Subject: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1573328322-212058698-967479992@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1947785951-212058698-967654112@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.387035018-951758591-967695714@topica.com> Jon Hill wrote: > The 100 watt-hr for the Neptune washer seems really low. > Where can we get these? I don't think the Staber could be any less. Hello All, Our used $85 washer bellied up recently, the second one in three years, and the lights went on. Time to get an off grid worthy, energy efficient machine. I went to the Energy Star web site and opted for Sears response to the Neptune; which they also carried for $999 I believe. At $150 discount we shelled out $650 for the Kenmore #40052 Horizontal axis (the key to the efficiency) washer that eats 128 kwh at the basic wash setting (vs. heavy/short), extra rinse, normal spin (not fast), as measured by the Brand WH meter at about the thirtieth load. The last 20 whr was used by the final spin. If any one asks to know, I'll set up a mod-square wave inverter and see how it operates on it. I'll start with the TS812. I have visually monitored the meter as it kicks into spin and it peaked at 624 watts and dropped fast (2-4 sec). Hope that's useful info. I've got some questions for you folks that I'll put on a another post, if not another day. Wally Stahle - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From creuter at rocketmail.com Thu Aug 31 00:41:33 2000 From: creuter at rocketmail.com (carl reuter) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 21:41:33 -0700 Subject: Solar in Hawaii [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1597425373-951758591-967696893@topica.com> I'm in the beginning stages of investigating relocating to Hawaii and wondered if any of the wrenches are based out of there or if any of you know much of what the alternative energy scene is like there? Carl Reuter ===== Land and Sea Solar, email: creuter at rocketmail.com Phone: 1-831-477-7762 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From phil at positivenergy.com Thu Aug 31 10:44:56 2000 From: phil at positivenergy.com (Phil Undercuffler) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 07:44:56 -0700 Subject: Washing Machines and Warrantees[RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1511877017-951758591-967693129@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1106329787-951758591-967733096@topica.com> I spent some time researching this issue last year, communicating with Frigidare, etc. Both Maytag and Frigidare will void the warrantee if their units are run on ANYTHING other than utility power--PV, generator, sinewave or mod-sine, it doesn't matter. I have also heard from others that neither units will work on modsine--the neptune interprets the power quality in an interesting manner; it thinks the tub is oversudsing and so it cycles continually through a rinse cycle. In contrast, Staber supports renewable systems, will run on a 600 watt inverter, can work without pressurized water (Sylvia at Staber sez many of their clients have summer places on lakes: small power systems, no water except whats hauled from the shore. One 5 gallon bucket for the prewash, another for the wash!) I've had one here at the shop for a year now (still gotta finish the laundry plumbing at home, knowwhatImean...) and I really like it. Huge capacity, the spin cycle really gets the water out, great company/tech support, and it's easy to work on if it ever needs it. Only caveat: the unit works better with a full load. Often a partial load will get out-of-balance, which will keep the unit from going into full spin, as well as making lots of noise. Once I got the hang of loading it (ie, don't mix heavy jeans with light sheets) that hasn't reoccurred. ----- Original Message ----- From: Frank Fowler, Crystal Pines Alt. Energy To: Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 10:38 PM Subject: Re: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] > I have a customer who purchased a Frigidare washer and kept having problems > getting the thing to run correctly. After many service calls to repair the > problem, the service tech reported to the company that the machine was being > run from inverter power, and they canceled the warranty. Needless to say my > customer was ticked off and told them to stick it where the sun don't shine. > He raised such a fuss that they finally just took it back and he purchased a > very simple low-tech washer. Everything is fine now. He has a DR3624 inverter > and I was informed that it should run OK, but it didn't. Fortunately, he was > very good about the whole thing and he is still a loyal customer. Lesson > learned: If your customer is going to use a mod. sine inverter, get a Staber > or a low-tech washer with no digital components. > > Frank Fowler > Crystal Pines Alternative Energy > cpae1 at aol.com > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Thu Aug 31 10:58:16 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 07:58:16 -0700 Subject: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1511877017-951758591-967693129@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.466914376-951758591-967733896@topica.com> Someone here reported a Maytag washer cousin called "Gibson" of conventional design would start and run fine on a UX612 inverter. If so (confirmations?) this might be a good priced alternative. Anyone know where these are available from? Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solarjon at netshel.net Thu Aug 31 11:28:40 2000 From: solarjon at netshel.net (Jonathan Hill) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 08:28:40 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.64154759-951758591-967670375@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.64154759-951758591-967670375@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.797142506-951758591-967735720@topica.com> >Don- How about a list with names, phone, fax, email, years in business, license? Jon >In a message dated 08/30/2000 2:09:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time, >steve at backwoodssolar.com writes: > ><< There is the problem > of some unqualified people getting on the list though... >> >I agree Steve. This is a potential problem. Any suggestions ? How does a >wrench qualify to be on this list? Reputation, years in business, license? >What are we comfortable with.? > >Don > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics ----------------- Sierra Solar Systems 109-N Argall Way Nevada City, CA 95959 tech info and foreign orders: (530) 265-8441 order line: (800) 51-SOLAR (US only) FAX: (530) 265-6151 e-mail: world wide web: Because of the high volume of e-mail to which I respond, please leave _all_ of the previous message (unless it's unbearable) in your reply so I can better remember your original message. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solarjon at netshel.net Thu Aug 31 11:28:41 2000 From: solarjon at netshel.net (Jonathan Hill) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 08:28:41 -0700 Subject: Inverter for home + recording studio [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.2075106856-212058698-967592932@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.2075106856-212058698-967592932@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1463421889-951758591-967735721@topica.com> >Windy- We've had the best luck with Exeltech for audio applications, like concerts or recording studios. Jon Hill >We have an inquirie from a man who wants to use a single sine wave >inverter for home and a part-time recording studio with both digital >and analog audio equipment. His home includes power tools that need >high surge. > >He already has a PV system with an old Trace mod-sine inverter. He >wants to replace it with sine wave. He doesn't want two inverters >with the associated separate wiring. > >We know that the Trace SW and PS inverters have a high frequency >ripple. Do any of you guys know if that is likely to cause problems >with recording and audio equipment? > >Thanks, > >Windy > >-- > > =========================== > > From the solar powered office of > Windy Dankoff, President > > =========================== > >Dankoff Solar Products, Inc. > > Wholesale distributor of solar-electric equipment > Manufacturer & distributor of solar water pumps > >2810 Industrial Rd. >Santa Fe, NM 87505 > >(505) 473-3800 >FAX 473-3830 >E-mail: info at dankoffsolar.com > >SEE OUR INFORMATIVE WEB SITE AT: > >http://www.dankoffsolar.com > > =========================== > > To contact Windy Dankoff directly: > Most days I am at my home office > e-mail: windy at dankoffsolar.com > tel/fax: (505) 466-0059 > ~ amateur radio KE5HV ~ > > =========================== > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: >RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: >www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: >michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics ----------------- Sierra Solar Systems 109-N Argall Way Nevada City, CA 95959 tech info and foreign orders: (530) 265-8441 order line: (800) 51-SOLAR (US only) FAX: (530) 265-6151 e-mail: world wide web: Because of the high volume of e-mail to which I respond, please leave _all_ of the previous message (unless it's unbearable) in your reply so I can better remember your original message. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From i2p at aol.com Thu Aug 31 12:44:24 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (Don Loweburg, Offline) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 09:44:24 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.577225433-951758591-967740264@topica.com> In a message dated 08/30/2000 8:30:18 PM Pacific Daylight Time, kurtj12 at aol.com writes: << i hate to sound ignorant, but how can i become an IPP member? kurt johnson the solar guys >> Kurt, Check out our web site www.i2p.org. There is an on line reg form. OR Send a check for $50 to IPP PO Box 231 North Fork, CA 93643 If you want just return email me at i2p at aol.com giving your buisness name, a short narative, and ,of course, contact details, phone , fax , email web pages, mailing address. Best, Don Loweburg - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From i2p at aol.com Thu Aug 31 13:03:11 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (Don Loweburg, Offline) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 10:03:11 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1586892107-951758591-967741391@topica.com> In a message dated 08/31/2000 8:29:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time, solarjon at netshel.net writes: << How about a list with names, phone, fax, email, years in business, license? Jon >> Jon, That sounds good to me. Other wrenchs, should we do this.? Michael, are you up for it? I would like this to happen asap. I then can do a write up in the next IPP in Homepower and I'm thinking also of doing a paid add plugging this service. I'd love for IPP to be the venue for this activity. As many of you know others are getting into the act-ie Kyocera "solar repair" and "Solar Access" but from what I can determine they don't have it together. I tried both their web sites (signed up - but nothing came back from either). I think we are set up to really jump on this and deliver. Don - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solarjon at netshel.net Thu Aug 31 13:15:37 2000 From: solarjon at netshel.net (Jonathan Hill) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 10:15:37 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1586892107-951758591-967741391@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1586892107-951758591-967741391@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1317979719-212058698-967742137@topica.com> >Don- Sounds great. An online listing of dealers and installers. Wow. Let's do it! Jon Hill >In a message dated 08/31/2000 8:29:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time, >solarjon at netshel.net writes: > ><< How about a list with names, phone, fax, email, years in business, >license? > Jon > >> >Jon, That sounds good to me. >Other wrenchs, should we do this.? Michael, are you up for it? I would like >this to happen asap. I then can do a write up in the next IPP in Homepower >and I'm thinking also of doing a paid add plugging this service. I'd love for >IPP to be the venue for this activity. As many of you know others are getting >into the act-ie Kyocera "solar repair" and "Solar Access" but from what I can >determine they don't have it together. I tried both their web sites (signed >up - but nothing came back from either). I think we are set up to really >jump on this and deliver. > >Don > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics ----------------- Sierra Solar Systems 109-N Argall Way Nevada City, CA 95959 tech info and foreign orders: (530) 265-8441 order line: (800) 51-SOLAR (US only) FAX: (530) 265-6151 e-mail: world wide web: Because of the high volume of e-mail to which I respond, please leave _all_ of the previous message (unless it's unbearable) in your reply so I can better remember your original message. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From global at sover.net Thu Aug 31 17:24:23 2000 From: global at sover.net (Jeffrey Wolfe, Global Resources) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 14:24:23 -0700 Subject: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1767083712-212058698-967757063@topica.com> No first hand experience, but I have heard nothing but bad news on the Gibson units. Poor construction, etc. Jeff Jeffery D. Wolfe, P.E. Global Resource Options, LLP A Woman-Owned Vermont Limited Liability Partnership 4 Kibling Hill Road P.O. Box 51 Strafford, VT 05072 802/765-4632 802/765-9983 (Fax) global at sover.net www.globalresourceoptions.com ---------- From: Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar[SMTP:steve at backwoodssolar.com] Reply To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2000 10:58 AM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Re: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] Someone here reported a Maytag washer cousin called "Gibson" of conventional design would start and run fine on a UX612 inverter. If so (confirmations?) this might be a good priced alternative. Anyone know where these are available from? Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ellison at gisco.net Thu Aug 31 19:40:40 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison, Alternative Energy Systems) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 16:40:40 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1586892107-951758591-967741391@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.671090228-212058698-967765240@topica.com> Don, It sounds like a good idea, I too have filled out the form for Kyocera and never did get a response, I thought the reason I got an answer was because I was not one of "their" dealers. In the case of New York you do not have to be licensed to do electrical but get this, you need a license to do plumbing........ Ever see a toilet kill someone? Let's go for it, Bob Ellison -----Original Message----- From: Don Loweburg, Offline [mailto:i2p at aol.com] Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2000 1:03 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Re: Referral [RE-wrenches] In a message dated 08/31/2000 8:29:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time, solarjon at netshel.net writes: << How about a list with names, phone, fax, email, years in business, license? Jon >> Jon, That sounds good to me. Other wrenchs, should we do this.? Michael, are you up for it? I would like this to happen asap. I then can do a write up in the next IPP in Homepower and I'm thinking also of doing a paid add plugging this service. I'd love for IPP to be the venue for this activity. As many of you know others are getting into the act-ie Kyocera "solar repair" and "Solar Access" but from what I can determine they don't have it together. I tried both their web sites (signed up - but nothing came back from either). I think we are set up to really jump on this and deliver. Don - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ellison at gisco.net Thu Aug 31 19:50:46 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison, Alternative Energy Systems) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 16:50:46 -0700 Subject: Washing Machines and Warrantees[RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1106329787-951758591-967733096@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.206801019-951758591-967765846@topica.com> Staber used to have 2 circuit boards, depending if on sine or mod sine inverters, don't know if they still do as I can't e-mail them and ask!!! The newest ones use considerably less water than the older ones, and also can now use powered detergent. The only problem that I have with Staber is not with their washers but with their computer mail program, it keeps returning my mail as recipient unknown, no matter who I send it to this is getting to be a real irritant! Lost the last sale to the utility anyway, so the power lines win this time. Just more of my thoughts, Bob Ellison -----Original Message----- From: Phil Undercuffler [mailto:phil at positivenergy.com] Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2000 10:45 AM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Re: Washing Machines and Warrantees[RE-wrenches] I spent some time researching this issue last year, communicating with Frigidare, etc. Both Maytag and Frigidare will void the warrantee if their units are run on ANYTHING other than utility power--PV, generator, sinewave or mod-sine, it doesn't matter. I have also heard from others that neither units will work on modsine--the neptune interprets the power quality in an interesting manner; it thinks the tub is oversudsing and so it cycles continually through a rinse cycle. In contrast, Staber supports renewable systems, will run on a 600 watt inverter, can work without pressurized water (Sylvia at Staber sez many of their clients have summer places on lakes: small power systems, no water except whats hauled from the shore. One 5 gallon bucket for the prewash, another for the wash!) I've had one here at the shop for a year now (still gotta finish the laundry plumbing at home, knowwhatImean...) and I really like it. Huge capacity, the spin cycle really gets the water out, great company/tech support, and it's easy to work on if it ever needs it. Only caveat: the unit works better with a full load. Often a partial load will get out-of-balance, which will keep the unit from going into full spin, as well as making lots of noise. Once I got the hang of loading it (ie, don't mix heavy jeans with light sheets) that hasn't reoccurred. ----- Original Message ----- From: Frank Fowler, Crystal Pines Alt. Energy To: Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 10:38 PM Subject: Re: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] > I have a customer who purchased a Frigidare washer and kept having problems > getting the thing to run correctly. After many service calls to repair the > problem, the service tech reported to the company that the machine was being > run from inverter power, and they canceled the warranty. Needless to say my > customer was ticked off and told them to stick it where the sun don't shine. > He raised such a fuss that they finally just took it back and he purchased a > very simple low-tech washer. Everything is fine now. He has a DR3624 inverter > and I was informed that it should run OK, but it didn't. Fortunately, he was > very good about the whole thing and he is still a loyal customer. Lesson > learned: If your customer is going to use a mod. sine inverter, get a Staber > or a low-tech washer with no digital components. > > Frank Fowler > Crystal Pines Alternative Energy > cpae1 at aol.com > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From kurtj12 at aol.com Thu Aug 31 23:18:34 2000 From: kurtj12 at aol.com (kurtj12 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 20:18:34 -0700 Subject: Inverter for home + recording studio [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.128441843-212058698-967778314@topica.com> has anyone had any experience with the powerstar inverter in regards to windy's question with recording equipment. i've been told by one source that you don't get any feedback sound with them and you can get them very cheap. kurt the solar guys - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From i2p at aol.com Fri Sep 1 00:25:42 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (Don Loweburg, Offline) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 21:25:42 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.388701951-951758591-967782342@topica.com> In a message dated 08/31/2000 4:40:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ellison at gisco.net writes: << Let's go for it, Bob Ellison >> This is great. For sometime I've felt the IPP site was underutilized but didn't have the juice to do anything about it. This is perfect. Michael, what do I need to do for this to happen?Best, Don - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cvsolar at aol.com Fri Sep 1 05:23:32 2000 From: cvsolar at aol.com (John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 02:23:32 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1112574464-951758591-967800212@topica.com> The IPP List sounds good to me. John CVSolar - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cvsolar at aol.com Fri Sep 1 05:23:38 2000 From: cvsolar at aol.com (John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 02:23:38 -0700 Subject: Inverter for home + recording studio [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1059338076-951758591-967800218@topica.com> Kurt, I used a PowerStar 1300 watt in my home for several years and didn.t notice a problem with my stereo. However I sold it to someone with a small 12v cabin system and while working there later noticed it affected their FM Radio boom box. I'm not sure what the difference was except for being in a different building. I wired both homes and had similar grounding etc. There is a very long inverter feed line from the batteries though. (about 12' of 2/0 THHN) it may be the radiating antenna. John CVSolar - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Fri Sep 1 07:54:27 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 04:54:27 -0700 Subject: Washing Machines and Warrantees[RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.206801019-951758591-967765846@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.140715104-951758591-967809267@topica.com> I think Staber just adds a filter if they are told it is for mod squarewave (the real; name of the waveform). They make no extra charge for this. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Ellison, Alternative Energy Systems To: Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2000 4:50 PM Subject: RE: Washing Machines and Warrantees[RE-wrenches] > Staber used to have 2 circuit boards, depending if on sine or mod sine > inverters, don't know if they still do as I can't e-mail them and ask!!! > > The newest ones use considerably less water than the older ones, and also > can now use powered detergent. > > The only problem that I have with Staber is not with their washers but with > their computer mail program, it keeps returning my mail as recipient > unknown, no matter who I send it to this is getting to be a real irritant! > Lost the last sale to the utility anyway, so the power lines win this time. > > Just more of my thoughts, > Bob Ellison - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From j.lamb at pecorp.com Fri Sep 1 10:14:40 2000 From: j.lamb at pecorp.com (James Lamb, Middle Fork Engineering) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 07:14:40 -0700 Subject: Inverter for home + recording studio [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.876791302-212058698-967817680@topica.com> I found the power star to be a good inverter. A friend of mine is using it on a 10 amp 12 volt hydroelectric plant. It runs the TV computer and stereo fine with little interference. One thing I did notice was when I was running an AC Refrigerator load using my weak Nicads, the inverter would turn off when batteries were at 10.5 volts, then turn on when the batteries were at 12 volts (The inverter is specified to should turn on at 13 Volts which it would not). This on and off cycle would occur a few times per second. What was happening, the nicads were recovering from the solar input rather quickly and when the inverter turned on in a short time the refrigerator compressor would lock ( electric motor would not turn because of the pressure of the refrigerant in the compressor cylinder) increasing the load on the inverter causing the voltage of the batteries to go below 10.5 volts shutting down the inverter. The voltage would recover to 12 volts in less than a second turning the inverter on then it would shut down in a fraction of a second. The self setting overload circuit breaker in the refrigerator compressor would not get hot enough to shut down the compressor. Not a good situation since I don't know what would happen long term. I had Powerstar modify the on off voltage set points with a wide range of 11 volts to 14.5 volts. This solved the on off problem. The system has since been upgraded and the Powerstar has found good use for AC loads in a small hydro plant installation where the refrigerator is operated on 12 V DC. Has anybody ever ran into this situation with the Powerstar or other inverters ? It was an unexpected learning experience of long ago and we should all be aware of it since in can happen when battery capacity gets low due to age and use. To bad Powerstar has not further developed their inverter with options. Jim Lamb Middlefork Engineering Northbrook, IL. 60062 middleforke at yahoo.com > ---------- > From: John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & > Wind[SMTP:cvsolar at aol.com] > Reply To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 4:23 AM > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Subject: Re: Inverter for home + recording studio [RE-wrenches] > > Kurt, > I used a PowerStar 1300 watt in my home for several years and didn.t > notice a problem with my stereo. However I sold it to someone with a > small > 12v cabin system and while working there later noticed it affected their > FM > Radio boom box. I'm not sure what the difference was except for being in > a > different building. I wired both homes and had similar grounding etc. > There > is a very long inverter feed line from the batteries though. (about 12' of > > 2/0 THHN) it may be the radiating antenna. > > John > CVSolar > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Fri Sep 1 11:47:11 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 08:47:11 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.537236065-951758591-967823231@topica.com> Why we are in this subject I'd like to introduce a idea to everyone who is installing. What does anyone think about a "RE Wrench Hall". Most of us are pretty small. Many of us are one man shops. For example, I have two or three employees most of the time but they are just helpers and really don't know much about making up battery cables, series/parallel, working around batteries, etc.. They have a grasp of wiring methods and a safety conscious but I use them mostly in the lighting retrofit business that I do to pay the bills. What if we traveled to help each other install? Something like a Union Hall. Whenever a Union Shop in the Electrical & Plumbing Industry gets a job bigger than they can handle they grab trained people from the Hall who know how to bend conduit and thread pipe for example. When the job is done these extra workers go back to the hall. This would relieve us from having to hire and train people constantly. We wouldn't have to try to scramble for work in between jobs just to keep our helpers from quitting for greener pastures which no matter busy you are they will always find a better job anyway. It might even be a benefit for local Wrenches who have no licensing, little hands on experience installing or are just starting out. This could be integrated into the Referral list we talking about. We could list if we are willing to travel and what specialized equipment we could bring with us. Power Wire Pullers, Battery Cable Crimpers, Scaffolding, Bucket Trucks, Box Trucks, Even RV's to save the hotels. Small shops wouldn't have to shy away from nice jobs that were a little bigger or more complex than they could handle or even worse get in over their head and give us all a black eye. Travis Creswell - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From roy at four-winds-energy.com Fri Sep 1 12:04:14 2000 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler, Four Winds RE) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 09:04:14 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.537236065-951758591-967823231@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.421957393-951758591-967824254@topica.com> Travis, This is one hell of a good idea! This would be the answer to one of my biggest dilemmas...needing the help to get the jobs...needing the jobs to get the help! I try to keep my overhead low 'cause we all know how fickle this business is and I don't wanna be stuck "holding the bag" when the slump comes. I travel all over now to do jobs...I'd welcome the chance to work with youse guys! Roy Butler Four Winds Arkport, NY - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From michael.welch at homepower.com Fri Sep 1 12:04:30 2000 From: michael.welch at homepower.com (Michael Welch, Home Power) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 09:04:30 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.537236065-951758591-967823231@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.159549-951758591-967824270@topica.com> Personally, I would like to see this taken one step further for you guys, beyond a worker pool. Most small RE dealers end up paying top wholesale dollar for RE equipment. An idea that a couple of folks bantered around after last year's Solwest fair was to form a buying cooperative. That would essentially be a high-volume wholesaler to get the best prices, and since it would be a cooperative of you guys, it would not need to make a profit, and could pass on all the best prices to you, less a small amount to cover the co-op's handling costs. What do ya think about that? I know that won't sit right with you folks on the list that are already wholesaling. But definitely something like this could make the rest of you a bit more competitive with the discounters that everyone complains about. Michael Welch ------------------------ "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." Edward Abbey Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com Associate Editor, Home Power magazine Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From roy at four-winds-energy.com Fri Sep 1 12:09:16 2000 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler, Four Winds RE) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 09:09:16 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.159549-951758591-967824270@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.479858604-951758591-967824556@topica.com> Wow...another great idea Mike! I think this bears more discussion....serious discussion! I love to pass good deals along to my customers...I'm not 'totally' profit oriented here...if I was, I'd be in a different line of work! Roy @ Four Winds - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From michael.welch at homepower.com Fri Sep 1 12:27:45 2000 From: michael.welch at homepower.com (Michael Welch, Home Power) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 09:27:45 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.479858604-951758591-967824556@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.159549-951758591-967824270@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1511758889-212058698-967825665@topica.com> Roy Butler, Four Winds RE wrote at 09:09 AM 09/01/2000 -0700: >Wow...another great idea Mike! I think this bears more >discussion....serious discussion! I love to pass good deals along to my >customers...I'm not 'totally' profit oriented here...if I was, I'd be in a >different line of work! Hey, if I got paid for ideas I'd be rich! But, most of my ideas end up as "freeware." I am about to head out to the annual Hog Farm Pignic. A great event, a bunch of us set up a huge battery (thanks to Joe Marino -- he doesn't measure battery capacity by the amp-hour, but rather by the ton), whatever size array Dave Katz can come up with, and a 15 kw Exeltech inverter. This system runs the sound system and the lighting. This year, Kelly Larson (of APC) is supplying bio-diesel to run the generators that are scattered throughout the event for power to booths and backup to the battery/inverter system. Kelly is in the early stages of a bio-diesel production business, using recycled fry oil! Truly a renewable energy event! And, keep it in mind if you are in N. CA, it is by far the best music festival I have ever been to. Great music for 2 full days, and hardly anyone attends! Lots of room to dance, and plenty of aging hippies and young folk to party with. Michael Welch ------------------------ "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." Edward Abbey Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com Associate Editor, Home Power magazine Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solarjon at netshel.net Fri Sep 1 12:28:14 2000 From: solarjon at netshel.net (Jonathan Hill) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 09:28:14 -0700 Subject: Inverter for home + recording studio [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.128441843-212058698-967778314@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.128441843-212058698-967778314@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1488416731-212058698-967825694@topica.com> >Don't even consider using a cheap inverter like the Powerstar for >sound. Recording needs a sinewave. There is no alternative to a >good waveform for good sound. A home sgtereo may work ok on modified >sinewave, but there may be a moderate buzz. Don't confuse a home >stereo with a recording studio. They are two completely different >animals. Jonathan Hill sierra solar Systems >has anyone had any experience with the powerstar inverter in regards to >windy's question with recording equipment. i've been told by one source that >you don't get any feedback sound with them and you can get them very cheap. >kurt >the solar guys > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics ----------------- Sierra Solar Systems 109-N Argall Way Nevada City, CA 95959 tech info and foreign orders: (530) 265-8441 order line: (800) 51-SOLAR (US only) FAX: (530) 265-6151 e-mail: world wide web: Because of the high volume of e-mail to which I respond, please leave _all_ of the previous message (unless it's unbearable) in your reply so I can better remember your original message. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solarjon at netshel.net Fri Sep 1 12:48:46 2000 From: solarjon at netshel.net (Jonathan Hill) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 09:48:46 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1511758889-212058698-967825665@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.159549-951758591-967824270@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1511758889-212058698-967825665@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1507040767-951758591-967826926@topica.com> >Michael- I can only echo your comments on the pig-nic. I've been to 7 or 8 now and wouldn't miss it for the world. Not even burning man could keep me away. See ya there! Jon HIll >Roy Butler, Four Winds RE wrote at 09:09 AM 09/01/2000 -0700: > > >Wow...another great idea Mike! I think this bears more > >discussion....serious discussion! I love to pass good deals along to my > >customers...I'm not 'totally' profit oriented here...if I was, I'd be in a > >different line of work! > >Hey, if I got paid for ideas I'd be rich! But, most of my ideas end >up as "freeware." > >I am about to head out to the annual Hog Farm Pignic. A great event, >a bunch of us set up a huge battery (thanks to Joe Marino -- he >doesn't measure battery capacity by the amp-hour, but rather by the >ton), whatever size array Dave Katz can come up with, and a 15 kw >Exeltech inverter. This system runs the sound system and the >lighting. > >This year, Kelly Larson (of APC) is supplying bio-diesel to run the >generators that are scattered throughout the event for power to >booths and backup to the battery/inverter system. Kelly is in the >early stages of a bio-diesel production business, using recycled fry >oil! > >Truly a renewable energy event! And, keep it in mind if you are in >N. CA, it is by far the best music festival I have ever been to. >Great music for 2 full days, and hardly anyone attends! Lots of room >to dance, and plenty of aging hippies and young folk to party with. > >Michael Welch > >------------------------ >"Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a >lot of scum on top." > > Edward Abbey > >Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com > Associate Editor, Home Power magazine > Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance > (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 > > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics ----------------- Sierra Solar Systems 109-N Argall Way Nevada City, CA 95959 tech info and foreign orders: (530) 265-8441 order line: (800) 51-SOLAR (US only) FAX: (530) 265-6151 e-mail: world wide web: Because of the high volume of e-mail to which I respond, please leave _all_ of the previous message (unless it's unbearable) in your reply so I can better remember your original message. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From roy at four-winds-energy.com Fri Sep 1 12:51:57 2000 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler, Four Winds RE) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 09:51:57 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.159549-951758591-967824270@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1511758889-212058698-967825665@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2043320578-951758591-967827117@topica.com> Michael, Where in N.CA is this picnic? I have a couple of customers/friends out there who might like to check that out! Thanks, Roy - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From quicksilver at eagle-access.net Fri Sep 1 16:47:01 2000 From: quicksilver at eagle-access.net (Don Wallingford, Quicksilver Electrical) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 13:47:01 -0700 Subject: RE Wrench Hall [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.837122490-951758591-967841221@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 3232 bytes Desc: not available URL: From allan at positivenergy.com Fri Sep 1 17:12:58 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 14:12:58 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2127761947-951758591-967842778@topica.com> I like the idea a lot, but I share the concern of others re how to establish some controls on who can be on the list. Eventually this could become the definitive list of bona-fide wrenching dealers with solid reputations. There should be some clearly-defined set of qualifications to be on it, as some of those who are least qualified may want the most to be included. I would like to see the discussion continue about how to structure a procedure for qualifying applicants, that all would have to go through, including all of us. I don't have good answers on what to require, though. There's no testing standard, and wrenches are a notoriously independent bunch. Perhaps an old-timers review committee, with Bob-o, Richard, Steve..(where's a woman's name when I need one?), others who have been around the block a few times...it's still a pretty small industry. (even Trace service dept keeps logs of who sends them stuff that's really broke and who sends bogus problems) Allan at Positive Energy -----Original Message----- From: Don Loweburg, Offline To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Date: Thursday, August 31, 2000 10:30 PM Subject: Re: Referral [RE-wrenches] >In a message dated 08/31/2000 4:40:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time, >ellison at gisco.net writes: > ><< Let's go for it, > Bob Ellison > >> >This is great. For sometime I've felt the IPP site was underutilized but >didn't have the juice to do anything about it. This is perfect. Michael, >what do I need to do for this to happen?Best, Don > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From wkennedy at jademountain.com Fri Sep 1 17:32:39 2000 From: wkennedy at jademountain.com (Wes Kennedy, Jade Mountain) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 14:32:39 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.2127761947-951758591-967842778@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.2127761947-951758591-967842778@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1657765472-951758591-967843959@topica.com> Howdy, To wade in here from the other end of the spectrum. What about us less grizzled, shorter toothed youngsters out here? I use the list as a resource to make sure I don't invent mistakes you all have had before. It would be a shame to not use the collective wisdom of the list to train a more skilled install team. >I like the idea a lot, but I share the concern of others re how to establish >some controls on who can be on the list. Eventually this could become the >definitive list of bona-fide wrenching dealers with solid reputations. >There should be some clearly-defined set of qualifications to be on it, as >some of those who are least qualified may want the most to be included. I >would like to see the discussion continue about how to structure a procedure >for qualifying applicants, that all would have to go through, including all >of us. > I don't have good answers on what to require, though. There's no >testing standard, and wrenches are a notoriously independent bunch. Perhaps >an old-timers review committee, with Bob-o, Richard, Steve..(where's a >woman's name when I need one?), others who have been around the block a few >times...it's still a pretty small industry. > >(even Trace service dept keeps logs of who sends them stuff that's really >broke and who sends bogus problems) > >Allan at Positive Energy >-----Original Message----- >From: Don Loweburg, Offline >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Date: Thursday, August 31, 2000 10:30 PM >Subject: Re: Referral [RE-wrenches] > > >>In a message dated 08/31/2000 4:40:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time, >>ellison at gisco.net writes: >> >><< Let's go for it, >> Bob Ellison >> >> >>This is great. For sometime I've felt the IPP site was underutilized but >>didn't have the juice to do anything about it. This is perfect. Michael, >>what do I need to do for this to happen?Best, Don >> >>- - - - - - - >>To send a message: >> RE-wrenches at topica.com >> >>The archive of previous messages: >> http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ >> >>To unsubscribe send a message to: >> RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com >> >>To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: >> www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html >> >>Hosted by Home Power magazine: >> www.homepower.com >> >>For info contact list moderator by email: >> michael.welch at homepower.com >>___________________________________________________________ >>T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >>Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics >> > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics -- Wes Kennedy Evolutionary Technologist "Your philosophy is not what you believe, it's how you live!" -j rubin - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From phil at positivenergy.com Fri Sep 1 18:33:02 2000 From: phil at positivenergy.com (Phil Undercuffler) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 15:33:02 -0700 Subject: Apprentice looking for Experience [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1707888048-951758591-967847582@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 1773 bytes Desc: not available URL: From roy at four-winds-energy.com Fri Sep 1 19:03:16 2000 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler, Four Winds RE) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 16:03:16 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.577225433-951758591-967740264@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1909232659-212058698-967849396@topica.com> Hi Don, I can't seem to access the IPP website with this URL....any problems with site that you know of? Roy "Don Loweburg, Offline" wrote: > > Kurt, Check out our web site www.i2p.org. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Fri Sep 1 19:25:12 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 16:25:12 -0700 Subject: RE Wrench Hall [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.837122490-951758591-967841221@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.758226975-951758591-967850712@topica.com> It works. We refer people to local licensed electricians who specialize and are experienced in solar. They contract with them independently. One, Scott Jochim, has followed referrals from there and been flown to Georgia and to Alaska several times for jobs people ask him to come back and do. They pay the travel. Just have to get that word of mouth referral going. Another, Drake Chamberlain did a lot of traveling for solar installs. Don Wallingford knows all about Drake's experiences. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Wallingford, Quicksilver Electrical To: RE Wreches List Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 1:47 PM Subject: RE Wrench Hall [RE-wrenches] Travis, I think you just might be onto something there. I don't know how many of us small timers could travel for work (someone has to be here to mind the shop), but your idea might be a good way to solve the problem of too much help or not enough help. I personally know two young men who have worked for me who might be thrilled at the prospect of wandering around working RE installations. And, they're not totally unskilled, either. After nine years in business, I'm on my sixth or seventh apprentice currently. All of them have received some good training and instruction, but have moved on. Then, there are two messages on my answering machine now from journeymen electricians wanting to work on RE. There's no way I can offer full-time work to either of them, but, if there were a place for them to sign up and wait for the call, I'll bet they would. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From inkings at swcp.com Fri Sep 1 20:02:23 2000 From: inkings at swcp.com (paul wilkins) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 17:02:23 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.2127761947-951758591-967842778@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.959926454-212058698-967852943@topica.com> allan wrote: > (where's a woman's name when I need one?), Debbie Tewa, Marlene Brown, Donna Fischer..... Paul Wilkins - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From allan at positivenergy.com Fri Sep 1 20:10:58 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 17:10:58 -0700 Subject: RE Wrench Hall [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1618822429-951758591-967853458@topica.com> Steve, After several years we have ended up with a 1-ton service truck with racks, utility boxes, bins, wire spool and ladder racks, etc.--we're loaded up with probably 2-3,000 different fittings, terminals, fuses, specialized tools and such. It's the only way we have found to have a better-than-break-even chance of having what we need to service a system or do a good install. And we still end up at the electrical supplier the next morning. How does a fly-in installer handle the myriad bits and pieces and stuff to do it? Even Drake drove around in an overloaded Corrolla station wagon for years. Just wondering how others do it--thanks. Allan at Positive Energy -----Original Message----- From: Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Date: Friday, September 01, 2000 5:30 PM Subject: Re: RE Wrench Hall [RE-wrenches] >It works. We refer people to local licensed electricians who specialize and >are experienced in solar. They contract with them independently. One, >Scott Jochim, has followed referrals from there and been flown to Georgia >and to Alaska several times for jobs people ask him to come back and do. >They pay the travel. Just have to get that word of mouth referral going. >Another, Drake Chamberlain did a lot of traveling for solar installs. Don >Wallingford knows all about Drake's experiences. > >Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com >Backwoods Solar Electric Systems > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Don Wallingford, Quicksilver Electrical >To: RE Wreches List >Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 1:47 PM >Subject: RE Wrench Hall [RE-wrenches] > > > > Travis, I think you just might be onto something there. I don't know >how many of us small timers could travel for work (someone has to be here to >mind the shop), but your idea might be a good way to solve the problem of >too much help or not enough help. I personally know two young men who have >worked for me who might be thrilled at the prospect of wandering around >working RE installations. And, they're not totally unskilled, either. >After nine years in business, I'm on my sixth or seventh apprentice >currently. All of them have received some good training and instruction, >but have moved on. Then, there are two messages on my answering machine now >from journeymen electricians wanting to work on RE. There's no way I can >offer full-time work to either of them, but, if there were a place for them >to sign up and wait for the call, I'll bet they would. > > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From jay at asis.com Fri Sep 1 20:27:27 2000 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 17:27:27 -0700 Subject: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.250316479-951758591-967554987@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1754178403-951758591-967854447@topica.com> Hi All, >From my experierence this isn't true. To convert all that I have done, either a burner orifice or an burner and pilot orifice is needed. There is no need to replace the control valves on the units that I have either worked on or talked to people about. The gas pressure being pretty much the same, and there is no problem with the gas valve working either propane or natural gas. Hope this helps. jay peltz Holt Kelly wrote: > Greetings, > Please Note that when converting LP to NG or vice versa that not only is the > main burner orifice changed, the regulator on the valve and the pilot > orifice must be changed (millivolt control valves). These components should > be in the conversion kit. One final note: some mfg's in the fireplace (gas) > industry will not sell you a conversion kit - you have to send the burner to > them($$$$$$)so be sure that a conversion kit is available from the mfg. of > the appliance you are buying. > > -----Original Message----- > From: allan [mailto:allan at positivenergy.com] > Sent: Monday, August 28, 2000 7:50 PM > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Subject: Re: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] > > Travis, > ACEEE (202 429-8873; aceee.org) publishes a book called "Consumer Guide to > Home Energy Savings" that lists appliance federal efficiency ratings, > including washers. Nobody has rated dryers. > I tell customers to get a Staber washer and any gas dryer (if they won't > settle for a solar dryer--i.e. a clothesline). The Staber does the job very > efficiently and is the only modern efficient unit that is still warranted if > the mfgr. finds out it's running on inverter power. Really! Plus the > Staber is set up for off-grid folks to service themselves, rather than being > a "consumer unit of the appliance repair industry". > All the dryers I've seen are convertible from LP to NG; it's an orifice > change, available as a kit from the dealer. Dryer energy use seems more > clothesly tied to how much water the washer removes on spin cycle than > anything connected to the dryer. Some gas dryers have glow bars, but unlike > gas stoves, thet cycle on and off to light the burner. > > Allan at Positive Energy > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Date: Monday, August 28, 2000 11:24 AM > Subject: Re: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] > > >Thanks, Travis, for the watt hour figures on washers and Neptune. A table > of > >these contributed by various experiences of wrenches could be a valuable > >reference. > > > >Until more than one inch foam insulation is used on refrigerators, I would > >say manufacturers have NOT gone as far as they can. Those of you selling or > >using Conserv freezer proves the benefit of better insulation. In my > >experience you can cut power use in half by going from 1 to 2.5 or 3 inches > >all around a refrigerator. Of course you cannot just add on outside a > >freezer as the wall skin is used as a heat radiator!! > > > >Vestfrost / Conserv could build a larger one with very little increase in > >power usage, because volume goes up with little surface area increase. The > >factory rep is interested in pushing for this, so if you think there is a > >market for a 15 cu ft or so, he asks that you call him and also call > Kyocera > >and get them to request it. > > > >Here are some tips about the Conserv Chest freezer: > >It often comes with factory set inside temp range of -20 to - 5F. This is > >too cold to make good energy sense and makes even the best ice cream to > hard > >to serve. We have discovered a way to change the range of the control knob > >to -5 to +8 and that seems to work better, and cuts typical use from 1200 > >watt hours a day to 850 on hottest days, as low as 500 watt hours in 70 > >degree days. It takes a small hard to find torx driver which we loan > >customers... but not having it here I cannot recall if size is number 7 or > >8. > > > >The Vestfrost/conserv factory rep in US is Adrian Whitney Smith at > >850-647-3889, . admarint at digitalexp.com. > >very helpful with technical info that Kyocera people cannot seem to get. > By > >the way the rumor that the freezer is being discontinued is completely > >false, he says. > > > >Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com > >Backwoods Solar Electric Systems > >> My newer (1 yr old) Amana 21 cu. ft bottom freezer fridge is using just > >over > >> 1.8 kWh's per day @ 80f. It's yellow tag rated it at 576 kwh's per > >year. > >> I found it to be using something like 1.2 when the kitchen was under 70f. > >I > >> subscribe to several energy trade journals and they are talking about the > >> next generation of motor driven appliances are going to be using much > more > >> advanced motors within a few years. It seems that manufacturers have > gone > >> about as far as they can with non-motor efficiency improvements. It > >sounds > >> promising that within several years we should be able to appliances > >locally > >> that are ideal for RE systems. > >> > >> Travis Creswell > >> Ozark Solar > > > > > >- - - - - - - > >To send a message: > > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > > >The archive of previous messages: > > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > www.homepower.com > > > >For info contact list moderator by email: > > michael.welch at homepower.com > >___________________________________________________________ > >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cpae1 at aol.com Fri Sep 1 20:34:56 2000 From: cpae1 at aol.com (Frank Fowler, Crystal Pines Alt. Energy ) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 17:34:56 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1103939624-951758591-967854896@topica.com> Roy, Go to www.homepower.com/ipp Have a great day! SUNcerely, Frank Fowler We are located in the Sierra foothills just 30 miles southeast of Chico, CA. "Living with the products we market, install & service" 530-532-1972 www.solarenergy-alt.com - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From roy at four-winds-energy.com Fri Sep 1 20:54:13 2000 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler, Four Winds RE) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 17:54:13 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1103939624-951758591-967854896@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1311618443-212058698-967856053@topica.com> Thanks Frank....that did the trick!! Roy - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From roy at four-winds-energy.com Fri Sep 1 20:58:14 2000 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler, Four Winds RE) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 17:58:14 -0700 Subject: RE Wrench Hall [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1618822429-951758591-967853458@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1705552660-951758591-967856294@topica.com> Hi Allan, Yours is a question that I'm looking forward to getting the answers to! I always drive to my distant jobs...it's the only way I can manage to drag all my toys, tools and supplies with me. I have explored the possibility of doing "fly-ins" and it appears to be a logistical nightmare. I carry tons of supplies too...and never have everything I need. It gets interesting when you do an install in an area where a trip to the local hardware store is 4 hours or more 'round trip! Roy Butler Four Winds RE Arkport, NY www.four-winds-energy.com - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From jay at asis.com Fri Sep 1 21:10:44 2000 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 18:10:44 -0700 Subject: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1767083712-212058698-967757063@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1578670009-212058698-967857044@topica.com> Dear Jeffrey, I have seen many here used locally, and some of the folks have large $ and very picky. They are really happy and the units seem the same quaility as the any other. And yes David Katz ran one on a Trace 612. Worked fine. He went to the store with a 2 golf cart batteries, a 612 and hooked it up and ran it. Hes been using it ever since on a SW, works fine. jay peltz "Jeffrey Wolfe, Global Resources" wrote: > No first hand experience, but I have heard nothing but bad news on the Gibson units. Poor construction, etc. > > Jeff > > Jeffery D. Wolfe, P.E. > Global Resource Options, LLP > A Woman-Owned Vermont Limited Liability Partnership > 4 Kibling Hill Road > P.O. Box 51 > Strafford, VT 05072 > 802/765-4632 > 802/765-9983 (Fax) > global at sover.net > www.globalresourceoptions.com > > ---------- > From: Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar[SMTP:steve at backwoodssolar.com] > Reply To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2000 10:58 AM > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Subject: Re: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] > > Someone here reported a Maytag washer cousin called "Gibson" of conventional > design would start and run fine on a UX612 inverter. If so (confirmations?) > this might be a good priced alternative. Anyone know where these are > available from? > > Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com > Backwoods Solar Electric Systems > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From jay at asis.com Fri Sep 1 21:12:37 2000 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 18:12:37 -0700 Subject: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1086075896-212058698-967682753@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.811299168-951758591-967857157@topica.com> Dear All, I think that the problems with the Stabirs warrent real care in recommending them. We have had a few ( 2-4 ) catch on FIRE. This was due to mice, but then we have had no reports in like 20 years on Southern Humbodt living of anyother type of unit catching on fire. In regards to energy usage, I don't think the numbers make any a clear choice. The Stabir at like $1200 vs the Gibson ( which works on mod sine) at like $600. You make the choice there. As to spin speed, unless there is some new numbers the stabir doesn't spin as fast as the enclosed machines due to water being thrown out around the top of the unit. The Frigidare/Sears is up around 1200 rpm. Being some of the fastest. I have the Gibson being run on mod sine and SW series Trace units. I have also reports of Nepunes as well although I haven't seen in done. In the end pretty had to justify the added cost for the Stabir. Jay Peltz "Jeffrey Wolfe, Global Resources" wrote: > The Staber uses 110 to 130 W-hrs per load, based upon full loads (18 > pounds) and a Brand meter measurement at our house. Powered from a Trace > SW4024, in line tie sell back mode. > > I like the Staber better than the Neptune for a few reasons: > > Larger load capacity. > More stainless steel, and longer warranties. > Warranteed to run on inverter power. > Made to be repaired, if it needs it, by the consumer. > Very fast (extraction speed) spin cycle, shortens drying time. > > And the best reason, I can buy these at wholesale, and sell at retail. Try > and get wholesale on a Maytag, or anything else... > > And the worst reason, the price is higher, and there is not enough room to > discount the difference. > > Jeff > > Jeffery D. Wolfe, P.E. > Global Resource Options, LLP > A Woman-Owned Vermont Limited Liability Partnership > 4 Kibling Hill Road > P.O. Box 51 > Strafford, VT 05072 > 802/765-4632 > 802/765-9983 (Fax) > global at sover.net > www.globalresourceoptions.com > > ---------- > From: Jonathan Hill[SMTP:solarjon at netshel.net] > Reply To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 12:48 PM > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Subject: Re: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] > > >Travis- > I agree with leaving the dryers out of the calcs, as they will > typically be used in the winter when solar is minimum. We do include > the washers, however, as many of our customers do run the washers off > their systems in the summer. Wind systems, of course are the > exception. The 100 watt-hr for the Neptune washer seems really low. > Where can we get these? I don't think the Staber could be any less. > Regarding the refrigerators, I think lots of progress can still be > made besides motor improvements. Check out the Sunfrost: two > compressors and the evaporator, top-mounted, 3-4" urethane > insulation, and lack of thermal bridges- all of this could be > incorporated into conventional units, without increasing the cost too > much. > Jon HIll > > >I typically leave the washer and dryers off my sizing calculations and > just > >accept that they will only be operated when the generator is running so I > >really haven't paid much attention to their energy ratings. I just make > >sure the inverter(s) can start them. > > > >Does anyone have any recommendations for gas dryers for off grid houses? > >Many cook stoves are easily field convertible from nat. gas to propane and > >back. Is this true for the typical gas dryer? > > > >Has anyone used a power meter to find out how many watt hours the > "typical" > >dryer takes to dry the "typical" load? My 10 year old washing machine > takes > >250 watt hours to do a full load of clothes and I have measured a > customers > >Neptune washer and found it to take right at 100 watt hours for a load. > > > >My newer (1 yr old) Amana 21 cu. ft bottom freezer fridge is using just > over > >1.8 kWh's per day @ 80f. It's yellow tag rated it at 576 kwh's per > year. > >I found it to be using something like 1.2 when the kitchen was under 70f. > I > >subscribe to several energy trade journals and they are talking about the > >next generation of motor driven appliances are going to be using much more > >advanced motors within a few years. It seems that manufacturers have gone > >about as far as they can with non-motor efficiency improvements. It > sounds > >promising that within several years we should be able to appliances > locally > >that are ideal for RE systems. > > > >Travis Creswell > >Ozark Solar > > > >- - - - - - - > >To send a message: > > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > > >The archive of previous messages: > > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > www.homepower.com > > > >For info contact list moderator by email: > > michael.welch at homepower.com > >___________________________________________________________ > >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > ----------------- > > Sierra Solar Systems > 109-N Argall Way > Nevada City, CA 95959 > tech info and foreign orders: (530) 265-8441 > order line: (800) 51-SOLAR (US only) FAX: (530) 265-6151 > e-mail: > world wide web: > > Because of the high volume of e-mail to which I respond, please > leave _all_ of the previous message (unless it's unbearable) in > your reply so I can better remember your original message. > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cvsolar at aol.com Fri Sep 1 21:28:16 2000 From: cvsolar at aol.com (John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 18:28:16 -0700 Subject: RE Wrench Hall [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1278964949-212058698-967858096@topica.com> Allen, I have a similar parts hauler. My 2 Ton Isuzu Box truck with liftgate (great for batteries) is sometimes even too small to be sure I have everything. When I try to use my pickup or Metro wagon I always am short a critical tool or part. I would definitely be willing to travel in the Northeast if someone had a big job or needed tools etc. My truck has a UX1112 with 2 L16's and 2 Solarex SX80's for mobile power. That has come in handy a lot more than once. Its great to be able to plug in without running 2 miles of extension cords or running a generator. An unrelated question. Does anyone know where to get Biodiesel fuel. I would sure like the option of running my big truck with renewable fuel. John Blittersdorf CVSolar - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From quicksilver at eagle-access.net Fri Sep 1 21:41:05 2000 From: quicksilver at eagle-access.net (Don Wallingford, Quicksilver Electrical) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 18:41:05 -0700 Subject: Truck Stock [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.294253860-212058698-967858865@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 2109 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kurtj12 at aol.com Fri Sep 1 21:52:13 2000 From: kurtj12 at aol.com (kurtj12 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 18:52:13 -0700 Subject: Inverter for home + recording studio [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1080790036-212058698-967859533@topica.com> thanks for all the feedback on the powerstar. i think i'll go sinewave. kurt the solar guys - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From kurtj12 at aol.com Fri Sep 1 21:58:20 2000 From: kurtj12 at aol.com (kurtj12 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 18:58:20 -0700 Subject: lead in philly [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1613869200-212058698-967859900@topica.com> any installers/ dealers in the philidelphia area? i have a lead if anyone is interested. Rev. Walson Burke is interested in inner city PV and his # is 610-876-1704. if anybody takes it let me know so i can stop looking for him. thanx kurt johnson the solar guys - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From allan at positivenergy.com Fri Sep 1 22:01:42 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 19:01:42 -0700 Subject: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2052552003-212058698-967860102@topica.com> The Gibson Tumble Action washer (GWT445RFS as of 1997) and the Frigidaire FWT445GE are the same front-loading unit, with different name plates. Don't tell 'em it's an inverter... One of our best clients (grid-backup, as he thinks of it, to 2.4kW of PV, 20kW Kohler, SW5548/D) put in the Frigidaire last year and it wouldn't work when on Trace power. At Tony Boatwright's suggestion, we added a BIG electrolytic cap--still no go. We plugged it into another nearby receptacle that was tied to the other stacked inverter, and it's been fine since. Who woulda thunkit? Allan at Positive Energy -----Original Message----- From: jay peltz To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Date: Friday, September 01, 2000 7:15 PM Subject: Re: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] >Dear Jeffrey, > >I have seen many here used locally, and some of the folks have large $ and very picky. They are really happy >and the units seem the same quaility as the any other. And yes David Katz ran one on a Trace 612. Worked fine. >He went to the store with a 2 golf cart batteries, a 612 and hooked it up and ran it. Hes been using it ever >since on a SW, works fine. > > > >jay peltz > >"Jeffrey Wolfe, Global Resources" wrote: > >> No first hand experience, but I have heard nothing but bad news on the Gibson units. Poor construction, etc. >> >> Jeff >> >> Jeffery D. Wolfe, P.E. >> Global Resource Options, LLP >> A Woman-Owned Vermont Limited Liability Partnership >> 4 Kibling Hill Road >> P.O. Box 51 >> Strafford, VT 05072 >> 802/765-4632 >> 802/765-9983 (Fax) >> global at sover.net >> www.globalresourceoptions.com >> >> ---------- >> From: Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar[SMTP:steve at backwoodssolar.com] >> Reply To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >> Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2000 10:58 AM >> To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >> Subject: Re: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] >> >> Someone here reported a Maytag washer cousin called "Gibson" of conventional >> design would start and run fine on a UX612 inverter. If so (confirmations?) >> this might be a good priced alternative. Anyone know where these are >> available from? >> >> Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com >> Backwoods Solar Electric Systems >> >> - - - - - - - >> To send a message: >> RE-wrenches at topica.com >> >> The archive of previous messages: >> http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ >> >> To unsubscribe send a message to: >> RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com >> >> To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: >> www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html >> >> Hosted by Home Power magazine: >> www.homepower.com >> >> For info contact list moderator by email: >> michael.welch at homepower.com >> ___________________________________________________________ >> T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >> Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics >> >> - - - - - - - >> To send a message: >> RE-wrenches at topica.com >> >> The archive of previous messages: >> http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ >> >> To unsubscribe send a message to: >> RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com >> >> To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: >> www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html >> >> Hosted by Home Power magazine: >> www.homepower.com >> >> For info contact list moderator by email: >> michael.welch at homepower.com >> ___________________________________________________________ >> T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >> Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunwise at win.bright.net Fri Sep 1 22:54:44 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (Kurt Nelson, SunWise) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 19:54:44 -0700 Subject: RE Wrench Hall [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.683963513-951758591-967863284@topica.com> At 05:10 PM 9/1/00 -0700, you wrote: >Steve, > After several years we have ended up with a 1-ton service truck with >racks, utility boxes, bins, wire spool and ladder racks, etc.......--we're And we still end up at the electrical supplier the next >morning. > Just wondering how others do it--thanks. Hey Allan, One trick I found is to use a good electrical supplier that has a number of outlets within your area of business. I hooked up with Roosevelt Electric in Wisconsin and they have several outlets that deliver product across a a large portion of the area in which I work. I bid a job, total up all the conduit, wire & cable, boxes and bullshit I need, and I don't even show up on site until the client tells me he has a huge pile of stuff waiting there, and I drop ship everything.... pv's, racks, mast pipe (from local steel suppiers), even small electronics like E-meters and such from Bob-O, it all ends up right were I need it and I'm not doing inventory (alittle, Chris) nor hauling all this stuff around. I should post some photos from the old days, like when I had well over 1,000 pounds of steel in my Volvo 245 wagon, much of it on the roof rack (or earlier photos with bunches of batteries in my 120 vintage volvo wagon). Kurt Nelson SOlutions >>- - - - - - - >>To send a message: >> RE-wrenches at topica.com >> >>The archive of previous messages: >> http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ >> >>To unsubscribe send a message to: >> RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com >> >>To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: >> www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html >> >>Hosted by Home Power magazine: >> www.homepower.com >> >>For info contact list moderator by email: >> michael.welch at homepower.com >>___________________________________________________________ >>T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >>Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics >> > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cvsolar at aol.com Fri Sep 1 23:28:03 2000 From: cvsolar at aol.com (John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 20:28:03 -0700 Subject: RE Wrench Hall [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.551233873-951758591-967865283@topica.com> Roy and all, I was curious where everybody on the list is located so I just looked up everyone's profile and came up with the following. (I was supposed to be digging thru and processing all the stuff on my desk but it is Friday night and after a 10 hour day on the job this was more relaxing. There are 53 names on the list and we average age 44.6 Ages ranged from 25 to 57 but most of us are 40's and 50's. (too old to know better) We live in 17 states and 3 countries or islands. 8 in CA , 6 in VT, 5 in CO & NM, 4 in MT, 3 in AK MO, NC, NY & OR, 2 in IL and 1 each in ID, KS, MD, PA, TX, WA, and also NZ, Falkland Island So it looks like we still have 33 states with no representation.... makes it difficult to refer customers. I'm curious to know how many installers there are in the whole country. Anyone have a guess as to how many are not on this list? Do we represent 2%, 5%, 25% of all installers? I know the list probably includes 50% or more of Vermont Installers. I was going to try to get a total of years of experience but I think I've wasted enough time already. I'll just leave it that we wrenches have walked the earth collectively 2,367 years. John Blittersdorf CV Solar - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From priibe at dtgnet.com Sat Sep 2 09:54:14 2000 From: priibe at dtgnet.com (Pat Riibe) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 06:54:14 -0700 Subject: RE Wrench Hall [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.551233873-951758591-967865283@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1861619191-951758591-967902854@topica.com> To John and List Thanks for the profile stata John. I represent South Dakota age 43 Young. I have been toooo busy to send a profile but its getting closer to the top of the "TO DO!" list. I am usually a silent participant to the list and groups I study. Enjoy reading the high level of professionalism. Thanks Pat Riibe -----Original Message----- From: John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind [mailto:cvsolar at aol.com] Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 10:28 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Re: RE Wrench Hall [RE-wrenches] Roy and all, I was curious where everybody on the list is located so I just looked up everyone's profile and came up with the following. (I was supposed to be digging thru and processing all the stuff on my desk but it is Friday night and after a 10 hour day on the job this was more relaxing. There are 53 names on the list and we average age 44.6 Ages ranged from 25 to 57 but most of us are 40's and 50's. (too old to know better) We live in 17 states and 3 countries or islands. 8 in CA , 6 in VT, 5 in CO & NM, 4 in MT, 3 in AK MO, NC, NY & OR, 2 in IL and 1 each in ID, KS, MD, PA, TX, WA, and also NZ, Falkland Island So it looks like we still have 33 states with no representation.... makes it difficult to refer customers. I'm curious to know how many installers there are in the whole country. Anyone have a guess as to how many are not on this list? Do we represent 2%, 5%, 25% of all installers? I know the list probably includes 50% or more of Vermont Installers. I was going to try to get a total of years of experience but I think I've wasted enough time already. I'll just leave it that we wrenches have walked the earth collectively 2,367 years. John Blittersdorf CV Solar - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ________________________________________ ___________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From priibe at dtgnet.com Sat Sep 2 10:17:57 2000 From: priibe at dtgnet.com (Pat Riibe) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 07:17:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1038555128-951758591-967904277@topica.com> To John and List Thanks for the profile stata John. I represent South Dakota age 43 Young. I have been toooo busy to send a profile but its getting closer to the top of the "TO DO!" list. I am usually a silent participant to the list and groups I study. Enjoy reading the high level of professionalism. Thanks Pat Riibe Re-B energy Pat Riibe rebenergy at dtgnet.com www.rebenergy.com 605-665-5652 1210 West 12th Yankton, SD. 57078 USA. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunwise at win.bright.net Sat Sep 2 10:50:52 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (Kurt Nelson, SunWise) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 07:50:52 -0700 Subject: RE Wrench Hall [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1830059586-951758591-967906252@topica.com> At 08:28 PM 9/1/00 -0700, you wrote: >Roy and all, > I was curious where everybody on the list is located so I just looked up >everyone's profile and came up with the following. >There are 53 names on the list and we average age 44.6 Ages ranged from >25 to 57 but most of us are 40's and 50's. (too old to know better) > >Hey John, I know there at least two on the list in Wisconsin, myself and Chris LaForge. I, for one, did fill out a profile very early on, though it was not very complete or detailed. I guess I need to go over to the site and see what's over there. Alas, my antique AirCastle computer is fine at email, but nearly impossible at getting around on the web. I'll give it a try -- Kurt Nelson PS - I'm forty six and starting to feel it. > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cvsolar at aol.com Sat Sep 2 19:31:54 2000 From: cvsolar at aol.com (John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 16:31:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.956538828-212058698-967937514@topica.com> Hi Pat and the other silent wrenches. We now have 18 states. Yankton isn't too far from Pipestone MN where I stayed while setting up wind measuring towers about 7 or 8 years ago while working for NRG Systems. This summer many of the Vermont wrenches attended SolarFest in Middletown Springs VT and it was great fun to have breakfast together and talk shop. Any other states represented out there? John Blittersdorf Central Vermont Solar and WInd - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cvsolar at aol.com Sat Sep 2 19:32:27 2000 From: cvsolar at aol.com (John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 16:32:27 -0700 Subject: RE Wrench Hall [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.681372474-951758591-967937547@topica.com> Kurt, You are listed though you are a year older now. My mind must have slipped a little by the time I got to the W's on my list. I forgot to transfer it when I went from alphabetical to the # of wrenches per state sort. You can bet I'm feeling my age 7 years ahead of you. My 7 year old daughter tries to keep me young though. Some days are better than others. My family usually takes a trip once a year to the west coast (Oregon) to visit my wifes family. It would be interesting to visit a few of the wrenches along the way and I'm still trying to get to Agate Flats. John Blittersdorf CVSolar - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Sat Sep 2 19:42:17 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 16:42:17 -0700 Subject: RE Wrench Hall [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.551233873-951758591-967865283@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1276416468-212058698-967938137@topica.com> They may not be official wrenches, but check my website under NEWSLETTER section and SOLAR HELPERS PAGE for currently active people we refer to. If you find no one else, these are probably good ones. If there were any bad reports they would not be on that list, so they are all either good or unknown. They are mostly small one person businesses with some years experience, not all licensed, but covers the country pretty well. And note the guy in Puerto Rico is great, has done the SEI classes and all. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Sat Sep 2 19:44:06 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 16:44:06 -0700 Subject: RE Wrench Hall [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1278964949-212058698-967858096@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.839472752-212058698-967938246@topica.com> Back when I crawled roofs and crawl spaces, I rigged a utility trailer for our camper so I could just hook up and have tools and supplies as well as a place to stay. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems ----- Original Message ----- From: John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind To: Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 6:28 PM Subject: Re: RE Wrench Hall [RE-wrenches] > Allen, > I have a similar parts hauler. My 2 Ton Isuzu Box truck with liftgate > (great for batteries) is sometimes even too small to be sure I have > everything. When I try to use my pickup or Metro wagon I always am short a > critical tool or part. I would definitely be willing to travel in the > Northeast if someone had a big job or needed tools etc. My truck has a > UX1112 with 2 L16's and 2 Solarex SX80's for mobile power. That has come in > handy a lot more than once. Its great to be able to plug in without running > 2 miles of extension cords or running a generator. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Sat Sep 2 19:48:52 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 16:48:52 -0700 Subject: RE Wrench Hall [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1618822429-951758591-967853458@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1048624577-951758591-967938532@topica.com> Good question, Allen. I would have to refer you to Drake Chamberlain or Scott Jochim for a good answer. Scott should be back Tuesday from his latest traveling install, and I think he reads the wrench list. But you can write direct to him at paradise at netw.com or check his web, the address for his web I can not find at the moment but may be listed in the wrench member page. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems ----- Original Message ----- From: allan To: Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 5:10 PM Subject: Re: RE Wrench Hall [RE-wrenches] > Steve, > After several years we have ended up with a 1-ton service truck with > racks, utility boxes, bins, wire spool and ladder racks, etc.--we're loaded > up with probably 2-3,000 different fittings, terminals, fuses, specialized > tools and such. It's the only way we have found to have a > better-than-break-even chance of having what we need to service a system or > do a good install. And we still end up at the electrical supplier the next > morning. How does a fly-in installer handle the myriad bits and pieces and > stuff to do it? Even Drake drove around in an overloaded Corrolla station > wagon for years. > Just wondering how others do it--thanks. > > Allan at Positive Energy > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Sat Sep 2 19:48:53 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 16:48:53 -0700 Subject: lead in philly [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1613869200-212058698-967859900@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1717176350-212058698-967938533@topica.com> Here is one guy I don't know well, but seems to have something going around Philadelphia: Pennsylvania and surrounding states: Energy options, Vertis Bream, 1755 Coon Rd, Aspers, PA 17304, Phone (717) 677-6721 Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 6:58 PM Subject: lead in philly [RE-wrenches] > any installers/ dealers in the philidelphia area? i have a lead if anyone is > interested. > Rev. Walson Burke is interested in inner city PV and his # is 610-876-1704. > if anybody takes it let me know so i can stop looking for him. > thanx > kurt johnson > the solar guys > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From trav_t at yahoo.com Sat Sep 2 19:49:54 2000 From: trav_t at yahoo.com (Travis Thompson) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 16:49:54 -0700 Subject: Interconnection Newsletter - August 2000 [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.220040141-212058698-967938594@topica.com> I thought this may be of interest to the Wrench members. It is an electronic newsletter regarding interconnection issues for the RE industry, authored by Chris Larsen of the North Carolina Solar Center. There is a link to subscribe if anyone is interested. Thanks. Travis Thompson Graduate Student Building Science & Appropriate Technology Appalachian State University, Boone, NC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Larsen" To: "Interconnection Newsletter" Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 12:12 AM Subject: Interconnection Newsletter - August 2000 > ======================================= > > IREC's Interconnection Newsletter > August 2000 > Volume 3, Number 8 > Editor: Chris Larsen, North Carolina Solar Center > > ======================================= > > CONTENTS > > News from the States > (1) CALIFORNIA Revised DG Rules Soon Ready > (2) FLORIDA TECO Interconnection Pilot > (3) NEW HAMPSHIRE Net Metering Rules Near Completion > (4) NEW YORK Capstone Approval & LIPA Interconnection > (5) OHIO Continuing Work on Interconnection Rules > (6) TEXAS Pre-Certification Rules Almost There > > Publications > (7) PV Connections Newsletter On-line > (8) Forum 2001 Abstracts Due > > Events > (9) IEEE PV Specialists Conference > (10) NESEA/IREC Interconnection Workshop > (11) Intertech DG Conference > (12) MSRI Interconnection Workshop > (13) Northwest Solar Summit > (14) CADER/DPCA Symposium on Distributed Energy Resources > > > > ================== > > News from the States > > ================== > > (1) CALIFORNIA > Revised DG Rules Soon Ready > We reported last month that there were a number of proposed changes to > California's distributed generation (DG) rules which are currently > before the California Public Utilities Commission (CPUC). The > collaborative group that has been developing the proposed changes will > submit a full report to the California Energy Commission (CEC) by the > end of this week. After review by the CEC, the (revised) rules would > move to the CPUC for approval which is expected by November of this > year. For more information contact Chuck Whitaker of Endecon > Engineering at (925) 552-1330 or chuckw at endecon.com or Scott > Tomashefsky of the CEC at stomashe at energy.state.ca.us or (916) > 654-4896. Or, you can follow California DG activity through the CEC > website at http://www.energy.ca.gov/distgen. > > > (2) FLORIDA > TECO Interconnection Pilot > We mentioned last month that Tampa Electric Company (TECO) had filed > with the Florida Public Service Commission (FPSC) a proposed pilot > interconnection tariff for small PV systems. No ruling on the pilot > proposal has been made at this point. And, the Legal Environmental > Assistance Fund (LEAF) has approached TECO in an effort to revise the > pilot rules to include net metering based on a cost-justified > rationale that allows net metering for small PV without setting a > precedent for other generation sources such as fuel cells. Meanwhile, > the net metering/interconnection docket (# 990538) for PV systems up > to 10 kW is still open before the Commission. > > > (3) NEW HAMPSHIRE > Net Metering Rules Near Completion > New Hampshire is moving toward the completion of its rulemaking > process for the net metering of renewable systems up to 25 kW. An > Initial Proposal, which was developed by the staff in collaboration > with the state's utilities and the renewables community, was approved > by the New Hampshire Public Utilities Commission (NHPUC) on August 11. > These proposed rules are available on the web at > http://www.puc.state.nh.us/draftrul.html. On September 22, a public > hearing on the docket will be held at the NHPUC, and the written > comment deadline for the docket is September 28, 2000. To receive > notices or for information on this docket, contact Peter Kelley of the > NHPUC at pkelley at puc.state.nh.us; for specific technical questions, > contact Mark Stanko of the NHPUC at mstanko at puc.state.nh.us or by > phone at (603) 271-2431. > > > (4) NEW YORK > Capstone Micro Turbine Approval > Earlier in August, the New York State Department of Public Service > (NYDPS) approved the Capstone Micro Turbine for interconnection in New > York State. The 30 kW Micro Turbine is the first three-phase device > approved in New York. In terms of the New York DG interconnection > process, the NYDPS approval means that these units can now be > installed in any of the state's investor owned utility territories > without being submitted to additional tests. DPS approval was based > on Capstone's units having passed Underwriters Laboratories testing > processes. For more information, see the Capstone press release at > http://www.capstoneturbine.com/whatsNew/pressrelease.asp?article=39. > > LIPA Working Out Kinks > The Long Island Power Authority and their power service contractor, > Keyspan Energy, are still working out the kinks while developing their > interconnection rules for small scale PV systems. Under LIPA's Solar > Pioneer Program, consumers are encouraged to install photovoltaic > systems, but there are still some important interconnection issues to > be settled. The most critical issue at this time is the > interconnection of systems on homes that are served with an > underground feeder. These customers currently cannot interconnect. > The reasons for this prohibition are not necessarily technical in > nature but have to do with the resolution of some contractual and > utility policy issues. It is expected that the final LIPA > interconnection rules will be similar to those that apply statewide. > For more information about the LIPA Solar Pioneers Program, check out > their website at http://www.lipower.org/pioneer.html. > > > (5) OHIO > Continuing Work on Interconnection Rules > In Ohio, the hope is that as they approach the seventh in a series of > Commission-sponsored renewables/DG interconnection workshops some > consensus can be reached between the utility and non-utility > representatives. At the August 30 workshop, the utilities presented > their technical recommendations. To a large extent, efforts are > focusing on the DG interconnection rules that came out of Texas and > are being developed in California. Consensus seems to be developing > around the concept of an interconnection screening process similar to > that proposed in California. (A screening process provides a > simplified means of determining which systems need individual > interconnection studies and how extensive such studies would be.) > Still, there are various points of contention in Ohio, including the > appropriate threshold for requiring interconnection studies, cost > recovery (fees) for any such studies, and uniformity of > interconnection contracts. For more information, contact Kurt Waltzer > of the Ohio Environmental Council at (614) 487-7506 or > kurt at theoec.org, or Dave Rinebolt of Ohio Partners for Affordable > Energy at (419) 425-8860 or DRinebolt at aol.com. > > > (6) TEXAS > Pre-Certification Rules Almost There > The Pre-Certification Working Group (PWG) met on August 30 to complete > the draft requirements for pre-certification of distributed generation > for interconnection in Texas. This document lays out the testing > requirements for pre-certification based on Texas's December 1999 DG > interconnection rules. Comments on the draft document are due by > September 8, and it is anticipated that a final draft document will be > presented to the Public Utilities Commission of Texas (PUCT) for a > vote in early October. Meanwhile, work is underway to develop the > state's guide to distributed generation interconnection for > customer-generators. For more information, contact Ed Ethridge of the > PUCT at (512) 936-7340 or ed.ethridge at puc.state.tx.us. Or, you can > follow this project through the PUCT website at > http://www.puc.state.tx.us/electric/projects/22318/22318.cfm. > > > > ================== > > Publications and Other > > ================== > > (7) PV4You Connections Newsletter On-line > The Spring Edition of the PV4You Connections Newsletter, with 20 pages > of state, city, school, and national news, is now on-line at > http://www.irecusa.org/pv4uNews.htm. > > > (8) FORUM 2001 Abstracts Due > The deadlines for abstracts for FORUM 2001 are coming up. Abstracts > for peer-reviewed papers are due to ASME by September 1, and abstracts > for technical papers must be submitted by October 1. FORUM 2001 > "Solar Energy: The Power to Choose" will be held in Washington, DC > April 21-25, 2001. For more information or to submit abstracts > electronically, check the FORUM 2001 papers site at > http://solarenergyforum.org/solar2001/papers.html. > > > > ================== > > Events > > ================== > > (9) IEEE Photovoltaic Specialists Conference > September 15-22, 2000 > Anchorage, AK > The 28th annual IEEE Photovoltaic Specialists Conference will be held > at the Egan Convention Center in Anchorage, Alaska on September 15-22. > To register, contact Wendy Larsen of NREL at (303) 384-6497 or fax > (303) 384-6490. For more information, visit the website at > http://ieeepvsc.nrel.gov/. > > > (10) Interconnection of Net Metering Systems with the Utility Grid > NESEA/IREC September 16, 2000 Boston, MA The Northeast Sustainable > Energy Association (NESEA) and Interstate Renewable Energy Council > (IREC) will be holding an interconnection workshop on September 16, > 2000. The workshop will be held at the ASE Americas office in > Billerica, Massachusetts. Speakers will include John Bzura of > National Grid, Bill Stillinger of Northeast Utilities, Chris Larsen of > the North Carolina Solar Center, and representatives from inverter > manufacturers. For more information or to register visit the web at > http://www.nesea.org/resources/calendar.html or contact Jonathan Tauer > of NESEA at (413) 774-6051 or jtauer at nesea.org. > > > (11) The Business and Technical Outlook for Distributed Power > Intertech > September 25-27, 2000 > Arlington, VA > "The Business and Technical Outlook for Distributed Power Generation: > Strategies and Business Opportunities for the Use, Cost and Quality of > DP" will be held September 25-27 in Arlington, VA. The conference, > which is being organized by Intertech, will feature speakers from > leading distributed generation manufacturers. For more information, > go to > http://www.intertechusa.com/energy/distributedpower2000/introduction.h > tml. > > > (12) MSRI Interconnection Workshop > UPVG and Endecon Engineering > October 4, 2000 > Baltimore, MD > The Utility PhotoVoltaic Group (UPVG) and Endecon Engineering are > organizing this Million Solar Roofs-sponsored interconnection > workshop, which is being held in conjunction with the Utility > Photovoltaic Experience (UPEx) Annual Conference in Baltimore. This > one-day workshop, will target regional MSRI partners. Presenters will > include Steve Hester of UPVG, Tom Starrs of Kelso Starrs and > Associates, and Bill Brooks and Chuck Whitaker of Endecon Engineering. > For more information, contact Julia Judd of UPVG at (202) 857-0898 or > jjudd at ttcorp.com. > > > (13) Northwest Solar Summit 3 > Western Solar Utility Network > October 16-19, 2000 > Winthrop, WA > Western Solar Utility Network will be hosting the Northwest Solar > Summit 3 "Utilities Taking Action" at the Sun Mountain Resort in > Winthrop, Washington on October 16-19. This conference is intended to > assist electric utilities in implementing solar energy programs for > their customers. For agenda and registration information visit the web > at http://www.westernsun.org/aaawsun/SunConfAgenda.htm. > > > (14) International Symposium on Distributed Energy Resources > November 9-10, 2000 > San Diego, CA > The California Alliance for Distributed Energy Resources (CADER) and > the Distributed Power Coalition of America (DPCA) are organizing the > 2nd Annual International Symposium on Distributed Energy Resources, > which will be held November 9-10 in San Diego. For more information > or to register, visit the CADER website at http://www.cader.org. For > more information, contact program chairs Shirley Rivera (619) 497-0120 > or Dorothy Rothrock (916) 498-3319. > > > About this newsletter > Have comments or news items? Send them to Chris Larsen at > chris_larsen at ncsu.edu or (919) 513-1896 or (919) 515-5778 (fax). If > you would like your name added to the distribution list, reply to the > above address with "subscribe" in the subject line. If you would like > your name taken off the list, please respond to the above address with > "unsubscribe" in the subject line. Past newsletters are available > on-line at http://www.irecusa.org/conNewsL.htm. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From kurtj12 at aol.com Sat Sep 2 19:53:29 2000 From: kurtj12 at aol.com (kurtj12 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 16:53:29 -0700 Subject: RE Wrench Hall [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1359678550-951758591-967938809@topica.com> john although i live in NC i service TN, SC, VA, and GA as well and i'm sure some of the other installers service other states than those that they live in. so when we put together our list we need to keep this in mind. kurt johnson the solar guys - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From wstahle at slonet.org Sat Sep 2 20:04:10 2000 From: wstahle at slonet.org (Wallace Stahle, Future Elec. Energy Co.) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 17:04:10 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.2127761947-951758591-967842778@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.385411666-212058698-967939450@topica.com> allan wrote: > There should be some clearly-defined set of qualifications to be on it, as > some of those who are least qualified may want the most to be included. I > would like to see the discussion continue about how to structure a procedure > for qualifying applicants, that all would have to go through, including all > of us. Right on to all these points. As people access the list they could be requested to fill out a questionnaire that reviews their experience with whatever wrench they had contact with. A pattern would likely result. Whud du ya think? Wally - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From priibe at dtgnet.com Sat Sep 2 22:19:22 2000 From: priibe at dtgnet.com (Pat Riibe) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 19:19:22 -0700 Subject: RE Wrench Hall [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1359678550-951758591-967938809@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1665028158-951758591-967947562@topica.com> Kurt carries a good point, Many wrenches may border state lines. The "WRENCH HALL" could offer a few different choices for mileage. The wrench would choose a mileage diameter he/she could comfortably provide service from the business address. If the services crossed state lines, then just note the surrounding states. I serve a distance of 100 to 150 miles depending on the job size. I live in the SE corner of South Dakota so my area would also include Nebraska, Iowa, and Minnesota. If I could offer one more idea about qualified service people and reputation of service. Maybe there could be a follow up on referrals, about the quality of instillation the wrench provided. something similar to Ebay or Amazon.com Star system. But use the KISS princaple. Just throwing ideas around. Thanks for listing. Re-B energy Pat Riibe rebenergy at dtgnet.com www.rebenergy.com 605-665-5652 1210 West 12th Yankton, SD. 57078 USA. > -----Original Message----- > From: kurtj12 at aol.com [mailto:kurtj12 at aol.com] > Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2000 6:53 PM > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Subject: Re: RE Wrench Hall [RE-wrenches] > > > john > although i live in NC i service TN, > SC, VA, and GA as well and i'm sure some > of the other installers service other > states than those that they live in. so > when we put together our list we need > to keep this in mind. > kurt johnson > the solar guys > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ______________________________________ > _____________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. > http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on > Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ellison at gisco.net Sat Sep 2 22:28:27 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison, Alternative Energy Systems) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 19:28:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.956538828-212058698-967937514@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.892980555-212058698-967948107@topica.com> Next year please mention the fair in advance it is 310 miles from me but might be interesting to attend. Anybody heard that Hawken Battery has bought Trojan Battery? Later, Bob Ellison -----Original Message----- From: John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind [mailto:cvsolar at aol.com] Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2000 7:32 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Hi Pat and the other silent wrenches. We now have 18 states. Yankton isn't too far from Pipestone MN where I stayed while setting up wind measuring towers about 7 or 8 years ago while working for NRG Systems. This summer many of the Vermont wrenches attended SolarFest in Middletown Springs VT and it was great fun to have breakfast together and talk shop. Any other states represented out there? John Blittersdorf Central Vermont Solar and WInd - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solar at eagle-access.net Sat Sep 2 23:38:34 2000 From: solar at eagle-access.net (Drake Chamberlin, Quicksilver Electrical) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 20:38:34 -0700 Subject: RE Wrench Hall [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1618822429-951758591-967853458@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1048624577-951758591-967938532@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2041372581-212058698-967952314@topica.com> Hi Steve and Allan, My approach is to try to stock a couple of everything on my truck, but not entire boxes of stuff. If I have a job where I need a lot, I buy quantities for the job, and then return the excess to stock. It seems like a major problem can be having too much of what is not needed. My approach is to draw a detailed picture of the system to be installed, including every fitting. It is usually several pictures, as boxes in the system may have grounding bars, fuses, relays, etc. It does seem that a supply run always is needed no matter how careful the planning. Even if I get everything that is needed with no mistakes at the supply house, something will break. If anyone is coming in to the location, they can pick stuff up. It might be a co worker or customer. Drake "Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar" wrote: > Good question, Allen. I would have to refer you to Drake Chamberlain or > Scott Jochim for a good answer. Scott should be back Tuesday from his > latest traveling install, and I think he reads the wrench list. But you can > write direct to him at paradise at netw.com or check his web, the address for > his web I can not find at the moment but may be listed in the wrench member > page. > > Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com > Backwoods Solar Electric Systems > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: allan > To: > Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 5:10 PM > Subject: Re: RE Wrench Hall [RE-wrenches] > > > Steve, > > After several years we have ended up with a 1-ton service truck with > > racks, utility boxes, bins, wire spool and ladder racks, etc.--we're > loaded > > up with probably 2-3,000 different fittings, terminals, fuses, specialized > > tools and such. It's the only way we have found to have a > > better-than-break-even chance of having what we need to service a system > or > > do a good install. And we still end up at the electrical supplier the > next > > morning. How does a fly-in installer handle the myriad bits and pieces > and > > stuff to do it? Even Drake drove around in an overloaded Corrolla station > > wagon for years. > > Just wondering how others do it--thanks. > > > > Allan at Positive Energy > > > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunwise at win.bright.net Sun Sep 3 11:28:46 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (Kurt Nelson, SunWise) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 08:28:46 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.754342713-212058698-967994926@topica.com> At 05:04 PM 9/2/00 -0700, you wrote: > > >allan wrote: > >> There should be some clearly-defined set of qualifications to be on it, as >> some of those who are least qualified may want the most to be included. I >> would like to see the discussion continue about how to structure a procedure >> for qualifying applicants, that all would have to go through, including all >> of us. > >Kurt Nelson here........ I agree with the process on some levels..... I don't want to see any more black eyes to the solar and renewable energy industry. None-the-less, I would ask that we tread carefully in regards to the old-boys network. There are a lot of voices out there. In regards to those who may not qualify, an apprentice program or other alternative to a simple "no you're not in", should be included in any exclusion process. Maybe an alliance with the Midwest Renewable Energy Association's Continuing Education Workshops for beginner to advanced PV training, or some of SEI's training programs. > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From inkings at swcp.com Sun Sep 3 14:35:20 2000 From: inkings at swcp.com (paul wilkins) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 11:35:20 -0700 Subject: bio diesel [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1278964949-212058698-967858096@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1796601503-951758591-968006120@topica.com> A wrench was asking about biodiesel for his truck, the only info source I know is: sspence at webcon.com. Paul Wilkins - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From freepower at freepower.co.nz Sun Sep 3 20:33:54 2000 From: freepower at freepower.co.nz (Carl Emerson) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 17:33:54 -0700 Subject: Trace SW noise levels. [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1278964949-212058698-967858096@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1796601503-951758591-968006120@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2088134084-212058698-968027634@topica.com> Hullo there... Has anyone had complaints about the audible noise of Trace SW inverters ?? If so what acoustic measures were taken to lower the running noise of the unit. -- Regards, Carl Emerson Manager FREEPOWER LTD. "Harnessing Natural Energy" AUCKLAND 356 East Coast Road, Mairangi Bay, P.O. Box 68-247, AUCKLAND, New Zealand. Voice +64 9 478-0404 Mobile 021-633999 Cellfax 021-2919399 Fax +64 9 478-0405 Email emerson at freepower.co.nz - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cvsolar at aol.com Sun Sep 3 21:05:43 2000 From: cvsolar at aol.com (John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 18:05:43 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.894591711-951758591-968029543@topica.com> Kurt, I agree with you that we have to be careful about setting up an unreasonable old boys network roadblock. I have been trying to get started on an electricians license for years and get stonewalled every time. The classic response I get from Master electricians is that I probably won't live long enough to get the license. There is no provision for life experience. If I'm wrong on that, someone please let me know. I have hundreds of hours of experience wiring working with licensed electricians houses but not in a formal program. I see the work of many electricians when interfacing my systems with their handiwork and quite frankly there is a lot of shoddy workmanship around. It doesn't make sense that you can get a pilots license in 3 months and risk other peoples lives with your skills but can't get trained in a reasonable length of time to do wiring. Not sour grapes, just making a point. So far I see very little problem with wrenches competing with each other so the more good wrenches out there the better. I am optimistic that things are going to start moving a lot faster in the near future. John Blittersdorf - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunwise at win.bright.net Sun Sep 3 23:37:00 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (Kurt Nelson, SunWise) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 20:37:00 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.963901751-951758591-968038620@topica.com> At 06:05 PM 9/3/00 -0700, you wrote: >Kurt, > I agree with you that we have to be careful about setting up an >unreasonable old boys network roadblock. I have been trying to get started >on an electricians license for years and get stonewalled every time. Right John -- I've heard the stories of those working on their licensee that do little more that hang conduit and pull wire for two years. They rarely see the inside of anything other than a J-box. We want people that understand grounding, but we also want people that have driven ground rods. My greater concern is on system design. I think site surveys, load profiling and all aspects of customer consulting is every bit as important as battery buss bars and inverter programming. In every system I've installed that I really feel good about, I was involved in more than just the PV's, at least on an advisory level. The whole house needs to be considered as a complex system, from the building's insulation, vapor barrier, heating systems and electrical complexities, to the very foundation of the building and its orientation. That's when solar really shines, but it's tough stuff to quantify. -- Kurt Nelson - - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From toddcory at jps.net Mon Sep 4 11:04:27 2000 From: toddcory at jps.net (Todd Cory, Bald Mt. Solar) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 08:04:27 -0700 Subject: Trace SW noise levels. [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1278964949-212058698-967858096@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1796601503-951758591-968006120@topica.com> <0.1300002502.2088134084-212058698-968027634@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.380644426-212058698-968079867@topica.com> IF you are going to install one of these inside a living structure I suggested a well vented (for better heat control) insulated box. I did this on a installation with a SW4024 inside the house. I lined the box with carpet which really helped. This homeowner is very sound sensitive and it greatly reduced the noise impact, however the lower frequency "ticking" in search mode still drives her nuts. (She also strongly dislikes wind up or battery operated clocks that tick.) I showed her how to shut the unit off and to my understanding she does this every night now. This 4024 was an upgrade of a 2012 which was much quieter in search mode. The best advice I can offer... and if I had it to do over, I would have just let the batteries be cold and put the inverter outside in a "power shed". While inverter noise can be somewhat mitigated, is is next to impossible to totally remove this and for sound sensitive people, best to put it in another building. Hope this helps, Todd Cory - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From trav_t at yahoo.com Mon Sep 4 13:42:22 2000 From: trav_t at yahoo.com (Travis Thompson) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 10:42:22 -0700 Subject: PV lifecycle costs [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2103980-951758591-968089342@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 1941 bytes Desc: not available URL: From econnect at snowcrest.net Mon Sep 4 13:59:51 2000 From: econnect at snowcrest.net (Bob-O Schultze, Electron Connection) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 10:59:51 -0700 Subject: Truck Stock [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.294253860-212058698-967858865@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.294253860-212058698-967858865@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.82508646-212058698-968090391@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 1948 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dmccorkl at sover.net Mon Sep 4 16:47:20 2000 From: dmccorkl at sover.net (dmccorkl at sover.net) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 13:47:20 -0700 Subject: Trace SW noise levels. [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.2088134084-212058698-968027634@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.946442063-951758591-968100440@topica.com> We had one person in a very small (about 10x12') house who sold us her Vestfrost fridge because it made her small SW inverter run too noisily for her, but that's the only one we've seen. In my old off-grid house it was a little annoying, being about 12' from my workshop table. However, it was useful in a way - you could easily tell if the well pump was cycling, and easy to tell when the clothes iron was done warming up! However, I haven't heard of any measures to lower the noise. Doug McCorkle Sunnyside Solar -----Original Message----- From: Carl Emerson [mailto:freepower at freepower.co.nz] Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 8:34 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Trace SW noise levels. [RE-wrenches] Hullo there... Has anyone had complaints about the audible noise of Trace SW inverters ?? If so what acoustic measures were taken to lower the running noise of the unit. -- Regards, Carl Emerson Manager FREEPOWER LTD. "Harnessing Natural Energy" AUCKLAND 356 East Coast Road, Mairangi Bay, P.O. Box 68-247, AUCKLAND, New Zealand. Voice +64 9 478-0404 Mobile 021-633999 Cellfax 021-2919399 Fax +64 9 478-0405 Email emerson at freepower.co.nz - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From michael.welch at homepower.com Mon Sep 4 19:00:05 2000 From: michael.welch at homepower.com (Michael Welch, Home Power) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 16:00:05 -0700 Subject: bio diesel [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1796601503-951758591-968006120@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1278964949-212058698-967858096@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.616777588-212058698-968108405@topica.com> paul wilkins wrote at 11:35 AM 09/03/2000 -0700: >A wrench was asking about biodiesel for his truck, the only info source I know >is: sspence at webcon.com. Paul Wilkins If he wants to buy it, he may have a hard time. It is available regionally. But if he wants to make it, have him buy the book From the Fryer to the Fuel Tank, check out www.veggievan.org, and subscribe to another list that I started by sending a message to biodiesel-discussion-subscribe at topica.com Michael Welch ------------------------ "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." Edward Abbey Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com Associate Editor, Home Power magazine Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From freepower at freepower.co.nz Tue Sep 5 03:49:25 2000 From: freepower at freepower.co.nz (Carl Emerson) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 00:49:25 -0700 Subject: bio diesel [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1278964949-212058698-967858096@topica.com> <0.1300002502.616777588-212058698-968108405@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1349413887-212058698-968140165@topica.com> > Anyone doing Canon/Unisolar roofing want this lead ?? ================================== Subject: Solar powered roofing panels Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 16:47:44 -0700 From: "Candace Vianna" To: I live in San Diego and will be needing to replace the roof on my home soon. I am investigating the feasibility of solar panels. Can you send me some information as to how they work, costs, installation and reliability of your products. Thanks Candace Vianna 367 Palomar Dr. Chula Vista, CA 91911 ===================== If so... Go for it !! -- Regards, Carl Emerson Manager FREEPOWER LTD. "Harnessing Natural Energy" AUCKLAND 356 East Coast Road, Mairangi Bay, P.O. Box 68-247, AUCKLAND, New Zealand. Voice +64 9 478-0404 Mobile 021-633999 Cellfax 021-2919399 Fax +64 9 478-0405 Email emerson at freepower.co.nz Full support of Power Systems utilizing Solar, Wind and Water Energy including 'Grid Embedded' generation. System Design and Diagnosis, Supply of Equipment, Site Assessment, Solar water pumping to 600 Ft down without batteries. Consultants for Sunpower Co. NZ Distributor for Canon/Unisolar Solar Panels and Photovoltaic Roofing. NZ Electronic rep. SOMA Wind generators. NZ Distriibutor Chromagen Solar Hot Water Systems The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From freepower at freepower.co.nz Tue Sep 5 04:00:33 2000 From: freepower at freepower.co.nz (Carl Emerson) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 01:00:33 -0700 Subject: Bergey 1500 Noise levels [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1278964949-212058698-967858096@topica.com> <0.1300002502.616777588-212058698-968108405@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1349413887-212058698-968140165@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1501441370-212058698-968140833@topica.com> I am about to order a Bergy 1500 and would like comment on the comparative noise from the machine. I understand that it is difficult to quantify as the matter is relatively subjective and site specific. How does it stack up compared to other machines of a similar size ?? I doubt if there is a 1500 in New Zealand so I have little to go on. I am particularly interested in the noise during re-entry after yawing. -- Regards, Carl Emerson Manager FREEPOWER LTD. "Harnessing Natural Energy" AUCKLAND 356 East Coast Road, Mairangi Bay, P.O. Box 68-247, AUCKLAND, New Zealand. Voice +64 9 478-0404 Mobile 021-633999 Cellfax 021-2919399 Fax +64 9 478-0405 Email emerson at freepower.co.nz - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From hkelly6 at ibm.net Tue Sep 5 11:41:12 2000 From: hkelly6 at ibm.net (Holt Kelly) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 08:41:12 -0700 Subject: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1754178403-951758591-967854447@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1497598435-951758591-968168472@topica.com> Hello Jay, I was specifically talking about Millivolt control valves, and the valve is not replaced, but a conversion of the regulator in the valve is necessary(changes the pressure). Not sure that many gas dryers use these valves but anything with a thermostat/remote switch usually does. Also the electronic ignition valves require switching the regulator. There is a big difference in the pressure. LP requires 11 water column inches while NG requires only 4.5 WCI. I has to do with efficiency in the way LP(heavier than air) needs more pressure to burn clean. If the conversion of the appliance is not correct it will self destruct($$$$). Please be careful. -----Original Message----- From: jay peltz [mailto:jay at asis.com] Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 7:27 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Re: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] Hi All, >From my experierence this isn't true. To convert all that I have done, either a burner orifice or an burner and pilot orifice is needed. There is no need to replace the control valves on the units that I have either worked on or talked to people about. The gas pressure being pretty much the same, and there is no problem with the gas valve working either propane or natural gas. Hope this helps. jay peltz Holt Kelly wrote: > Greetings, > Please Note that when converting LP to NG or vice versa that not only is the > main burner orifice changed, the regulator on the valve and the pilot > orifice must be changed (millivolt control valves). These components should > be in the conversion kit. One final note: some mfg's in the fireplace (gas) > industry will not sell you a conversion kit - you have to send the burner to > them($$$$$$)so be sure that a conversion kit is available from the mfg. of > the appliance you are buying. > > -----Original Message----- > From: allan [mailto:allan at positivenergy.com] > Sent: Monday, August 28, 2000 7:50 PM > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Subject: Re: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] > > Travis, > ACEEE (202 429-8873; aceee.org) publishes a book called "Consumer Guide to > Home Energy Savings" that lists appliance federal efficiency ratings, > including washers. Nobody has rated dryers. > I tell customers to get a Staber washer and any gas dryer (if they won't > settle for a solar dryer--i.e. a clothesline). The Staber does the job very > efficiently and is the only modern efficient unit that is still warranted if > the mfgr. finds out it's running on inverter power. Really! Plus the > Staber is set up for off-grid folks to service themselves, rather than being > a "consumer unit of the appliance repair industry". > All the dryers I've seen are convertible from LP to NG; it's an orifice > change, available as a kit from the dealer. Dryer energy use seems more > clothesly tied to how much water the washer removes on spin cycle than > anything connected to the dryer. Some gas dryers have glow bars, but unlike > gas stoves, thet cycle on and off to light the burner. > > Allan at Positive Energy > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Date: Monday, August 28, 2000 11:24 AM > Subject: Re: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] > > >Thanks, Travis, for the watt hour figures on washers and Neptune. A table > of > >these contributed by various experiences of wrenches could be a valuable > >reference. > > > >Until more than one inch foam insulation is used on refrigerators, I would > >say manufacturers have NOT gone as far as they can. Those of you selling or > >using Conserv freezer proves the benefit of better insulation. In my > >experience you can cut power use in half by going from 1 to 2.5 or 3 inches > >all around a refrigerator. Of course you cannot just add on outside a > >freezer as the wall skin is used as a heat radiator!! > > > >Vestfrost / Conserv could build a larger one with very little increase in > >power usage, because volume goes up with little surface area increase. The > >factory rep is interested in pushing for this, so if you think there is a > >market for a 15 cu ft or so, he asks that you call him and also call > Kyocera > >and get them to request it. > > > >Here are some tips about the Conserv Chest freezer: > >It often comes with factory set inside temp range of -20 to - 5F. This is > >too cold to make good energy sense and makes even the best ice cream to > hard > >to serve. We have discovered a way to change the range of the control knob > >to -5 to +8 and that seems to work better, and cuts typical use from 1200 > >watt hours a day to 850 on hottest days, as low as 500 watt hours in 70 > >degree days. It takes a small hard to find torx driver which we loan > >customers... but not having it here I cannot recall if size is number 7 or > >8. > > > >The Vestfrost/conserv factory rep in US is Adrian Whitney Smith at > >850-647-3889, . admarint at digitalexp.com. > >very helpful with technical info that Kyocera people cannot seem to get. > By > >the way the rumor that the freezer is being discontinued is completely > >false, he says. > > > >Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com > >Backwoods Solar Electric Systems > >> My newer (1 yr old) Amana 21 cu. ft bottom freezer fridge is using just > >over > >> 1.8 kWh's per day @ 80f. It's yellow tag rated it at 576 kwh's per > >year. > >> I found it to be using something like 1.2 when the kitchen was under 70f. > >I > >> subscribe to several energy trade journals and they are talking about the > >> next generation of motor driven appliances are going to be using much > more > >> advanced motors within a few years. It seems that manufacturers have > gone > >> about as far as they can with non-motor efficiency improvements. It > >sounds > >> promising that within several years we should be able to appliances > >locally > >> that are ideal for RE systems. > >> > >> Travis Creswell > >> Ozark Solar > > > > > >- - - - - - - > >To send a message: > > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > > >The archive of previous messages: > > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > www.homepower.com > > > >For info contact list moderator by email: > > michael.welch at homepower.com > >___________________________________________________________ > >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Tue Sep 5 17:25:10 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 14:25:10 -0700 Subject: Project Involement Level? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.636797764-212058698-968189110@topica.com> Kurt, I agree you you wholeheartedly. I try get my customers that are building a house to pay attention to what they are doing but often the General feels like he is getting is feet stepped on so I have to back off and bite my tongue while they install incandescent lights and don't pay attention to caulking up the plumbing and electrical penetrations. How many off us are building the whole house? How many of us would like to? Travis Ozark Solar ---------- >From: "Kurt Nelson, SunWise" >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Subject: Re: Referral [RE-wrenches] >Date: Sun, Sep 3, 2000, 10:37 PM > >My greater concern is on system design. I think site surveys, load >profiling and all aspects of customer consulting is every bit as important >as battery buss bars and inverter programming. In every system I've >installed that I really feel >good about, I was involved in more than just the PV's, at least on an >advisory level. The whole house needs to be considered as a complex system, >from the building's insulation, vapor barrier, heating systems and >electrical complexities, to the very foundation of the building and its >orientation. That's when solar really shines, but it's tough stuff to >quantify. -- Kurt Nelson - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From i2p at aol.com Tue Sep 5 17:27:19 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (Don Loweburg, Offline) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 14:27:19 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1485865435-951758591-968189239@topica.com> Wrenches and IPP members, Michael tells me it would be easy to set up a spreadsheet listing on the IPP web page. Since Ive only heard positve responces, it's a go. There has been some discussion about qualifications. Here's what I think should be done. Besides company name, address, contact info, we have a field for years of experience installing, certification, licensing, or contractor status. In other words we don't set standards but we do give the potential customer full information. They are responsible for choosing. We may also include an IPP disclaimer. In addition we encourage customer feedback. If IPP gets negative responses about any work done or other practices by our refferals, then IPP has the option of removing a listing. Of course IPP would contact both parties seeking resolution first. I will discuss the wrenchs list in the next IPP column. I also want to run a display add in the next Homepower. IPP logo with something to the effect..Need a Wrench To do the add I need a few new members (thank you to who have newly joined) and of course any re-ups are welcome. As a formality I need to run this by the board. What say you Bob O and Richard? Understanding that we need to keep this simple ,are there suggestions or ommisions on my part. Don Loweburg IPP - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Tue Sep 5 17:41:38 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 14:41:38 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1685405406-212058698-968190098@topica.com> Thanks for moving on this Don. I assume IPP pays for the HP add? Excellent idea by the way! If that's the case I am not a member of IPP but I'd be glad to join. Travis Creswell Ozark Solar ---------- >From: "Don Loweburg, Offline" >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Subject: Re: Referral [RE-wrenches] >Date: Tue, Sep 5, 2000, 4:27 PM > >I will discuss the wrenchs list in the next IPP column. I also want to run a >display add in the next Homepower. IPP logo with something to the >effect..Need a Wrench > >To do the add I need a few new members (thank you to who have newly joined) >and of course any re-ups are welcome. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From phil at positivenergy.com Tue Sep 5 17:50:58 2000 From: phil at positivenergy.com (Phil Undercuffler) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 14:50:58 -0700 Subject: Looking for Dealer Referral in Vermont [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1339624082-951758591-968190658@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 1498 bytes Desc: not available URL: From roy at four-winds-energy.com Tue Sep 5 18:36:35 2000 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler, Four Winds RE) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 15:36:35 -0700 Subject: Project Involement Level? [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.636797764-212058698-968189110@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.463248779-212058698-968193395@topica.com> Kurt and Travis and all, I'm right with you guys! I spent close to 20 years running my own remodeling/construction business and learned a LOT of neat little tricks along the way. I take a lot of enjoyment from the fact that with RE, I can use all of my skills I've honed over the years. Anyway...the point (finally)...I tend to get seriously caught up in the details that you are describing. And I'm fortunate that most folks do seem to listen and take my advice. On the other hand, I must admit it's tough to step back and shut up when they don't! I would always like to be involved in building the whole house... but right now I'll settle for the few doors, windows, efficient appliances and extra insulation I can squeeze in! Roy Butler Four Winds Arkport, NY - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From global at sover.net Tue Sep 5 18:48:33 2000 From: global at sover.net (Jeffrey Wolfe, Global Resources) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 15:48:33 -0700 Subject: Project Involement Level? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.141140694-212058698-968194113@topica.com> We try very hard, like Kurt and Travis, to design the whole house/building. Our background is in large building design, and we've seen too many fractured building designs, where architect / engineer / contractor don't talk. Too often, the owner only watches the $, and does not know how to watch the quality. We try to help, but often, like Travis, get stepped on and abused. Generally I can put up with anything a GC can throw, so long as I can maintain backing from the owner, which is not always easy, since the GC has their ear all the time. I really try to work with the GC's as many do know some things I don't, but puch come to shove, we're there for the owners. We call it "holistic engineering", and wish people understood what we meant when we said it. Jeff Jeffery D. Wolfe, P.E. Global Resource Options, LLP A Woman-Owned Vermont Limited Liability Partnership 4 Kibling Hill Road P.O. Box 51 Strafford, VT 05072 802/765-4632 802/765-9983 (Fax) global at sover.net www.globalresourceoptions.com ---------- From: Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar[SMTP:ozsolar at ipa.net] Reply To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 5:25 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Project Involement Level? [RE-wrenches] Kurt, I agree you you wholeheartedly. I try get my customers that are building a house to pay attention to what they are doing but often the General feels like he is getting is feet stepped on so I have to back off and bite my tongue while they install incandescent lights and don't pay attention to caulking up the plumbing and electrical penetrations. How many off us are building the whole house? How many of us would like to? Travis Ozark Solar ---------- >From: "Kurt Nelson, SunWise" >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Subject: Re: Referral [RE-wrenches] >Date: Sun, Sep 3, 2000, 10:37 PM > >My greater concern is on system design. I think site surveys, load >profiling and all aspects of customer consulting is every bit as important >as battery buss bars and inverter programming. In every system I've >installed that I really feel >good about, I was involved in more than just the PV's, at least on an >advisory level. The whole house needs to be considered as a complex system, >from the building's insulation, vapor barrier, heating systems and >electrical complexities, to the very foundation of the building and its >orientation. That's when solar really shines, but it's tough stuff to >quantify. -- Kurt Nelson - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From richard.perez at homepower.com Tue Sep 5 18:53:35 2000 From: richard.perez at homepower.com (Richard Perez, Home Power magazine) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 15:53:35 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1485865435-951758591-968189239@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1485865435-951758591-968189239@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.817947023-212058698-968194415@topica.com> Hello Don and IPPers Good idea! Come up with the ad concept and Ben will set it up. Home Power will run the ad for free. Richard At 14:27 -0700 9/5/00, Don Loweburg, Offline wrote: >Wrenches and IPP members, > >Michael tells me it would be easy to set up a spreadsheet listing on the IPP >web page. Since Ive only heard positve responces, it's a go. > >There has been some discussion about qualifications. Here's what I think >should be done. Besides company name, address, contact info, we have a field >for years of experience installing, certification, licensing, or contractor >status. In other words we don't set standards but we do give the potential >customer full information. They are responsible for choosing. We may also >include an IPP disclaimer. In addition we encourage customer feedback. If IPP >gets negative responses about any work done or other practices by our >refferals, then IPP has the option of removing a listing. Of course IPP would >contact both parties seeking resolution first. > >I will discuss the wrenchs list in the next IPP column. I also want to run a >display add in the next Homepower. IPP logo with something to the >effect..Need a Wrench > >To do the add I need a few new members (thank you to who have newly joined) >and of course any re-ups are welcome. > >As a formality I need to run this by the board. What say you Bob O and >Richard? > >Understanding that we need to keep this simple ,are there suggestions or >ommisions on my part. > >Don Loweburg >IPP ------------------------------------ Richard Pérez Home Power PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA Tele: 530-475-3179 FAX: 530-475-0836 Subscriptions: 800-707-6585 mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com Web: http://www.homepower.com - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From allan at positivenergy.com Tue Sep 5 21:04:12 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 18:04:12 -0700 Subject: Trace SW noise levels. [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.276585615-951758591-968202252@topica.com> We have started doing some system installs with the power equipment in a rain- and dust-protected, vented enclosure, maybe 4' by 6', mounted on or next to an exterior wall of a house, with the batteries in a sealed, vented box located on the inside of the same exterior wall (for winter warmth). So far it has worked out pretty well, and it's code-legal. We still warn clients about inverter noise. Allan at Positive Energy -----Original Message----- From: dmccorkl at sover.net To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Date: Monday, September 04, 2000 2:52 PM Subject: RE: Trace SW noise levels. [RE-wrenches] >We had one person in a very small (about 10x12') house who sold us her >Vestfrost fridge because it made her small SW inverter run too noisily for >her, but that's the only one we've seen. In my old off-grid house it was a >little annoying, being about 12' from my workshop table. However, it was >useful in a way - you could easily tell if the well pump was cycling, and >easy to tell when the clothes iron was done warming up! However, I haven't >heard of any measures to lower the noise. >Doug McCorkle >Sunnyside Solar > >-----Original Message----- >From: Carl Emerson [mailto:freepower at freepower.co.nz] >Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 8:34 PM >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Subject: Trace SW noise levels. [RE-wrenches] > > >Hullo there... > >Has anyone had complaints about the audible noise of Trace SW inverters ?? > >If so what acoustic measures were taken to lower the running noise of the >unit. > >-- >Regards, > > >Carl Emerson >Manager >FREEPOWER LTD. "Harnessing Natural Energy" > >AUCKLAND >356 East Coast Road, Mairangi Bay, P.O. Box 68-247, AUCKLAND, New >Zealand. >Voice +64 9 478-0404 Mobile 021-633999 Cellfax 021-2919399 >Fax +64 9 478-0405 Email emerson at freepower.co.nz > > > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cvsolar at aol.com Tue Sep 5 21:51:29 2000 From: cvsolar at aol.com (John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 18:51:29 -0700 Subject: Project Involement Level? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1926270688-212058698-968205089@topica.com> Travis, I just went thru a discussion with a customer when the General said they needed 480 watts of fluorescent lights in their new 2 car garage which will be used only to park their cars! They have been working in the garage painting all their window and door trim with one 80 watt shop light and can't see why they need more. I told them a separate switch for the one compact fluorescent near the house door would be fine and leave the others off. I think I am seeing a pattern where the GC is making a percentage on everything going into the building and just wants to make the project as expensive as possible.. just the opposite of what we are trying to do. Most contractors don't seem to understand efficiency at all. Next Sunday I will move the SW4024 system from a temporary shed into the house utility room and the customer is moving in less than 2 weeks from now. The house was built with PV power only and the General was somewhat impressed with that working ok. John Blittersdorf CVSolar - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From kurtj12 at aol.com Tue Sep 5 22:26:41 2000 From: kurtj12 at aol.com (kurtj12 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 19:26:41 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.450054539-951758591-968207201@topica.com> don i like your proposal. will there be a column that tells the territory each business services in and out of their home state? kurt johnson the solar guys - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From grateful at boone.net Wed Sep 6 00:24:46 2000 From: grateful at boone.net (Scott Suddreth, Rock Castle Solar) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 21:24:46 -0700 Subject: teacher [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.450054539-951758591-968207201@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.192921918-951758591-968214286@topica.com> Kurt, I ran the SEI info past the club tonight and 10 people raised their hand when asked if they would be interested in attending something by SEI. Whats the topic? The club has also asked me to see what your doing at 8:00 on Tuesday September 19th. Our topic that night is Hydro and they were hoping that you might come teach it. We have a lot of interest in seeing your friend from ES&D, just let us know the details of when. Congratulations on your article in HP! Solar Suddreth - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solarjon at netshel.net Wed Sep 6 01:18:39 2000 From: solarjon at netshel.net (Jonathan Hill) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 22:18:39 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.2127761947-951758591-967842778@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.2127761947-951758591-967842778@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.249335662-212058698-968217519@topica.com> >Why not a 5 year minimum time in The RE biz, or a recommendation >from someone who has been there that long? Jon HIll >I like the idea a lot, but I share the concern of others re how to establish >some controls on who can be on the list. Eventually this could become the >definitive list of bona-fide wrenching dealers with solid reputations. >There should be some clearly-defined set of qualifications to be on it, as >some of those who are least qualified may want the most to be included. I >would like to see the discussion continue about how to structure a procedure >for qualifying applicants, that all would have to go through, including all >of us. > I don't have good answers on what to require, though. There's no >testing standard, and wrenches are a notoriously independent bunch. Perhaps >an old-timers review committee, with Bob-o, Richard, Steve..(where's a >woman's name when I need one?), others who have been around the block a few >times...it's still a pretty small industry. > >(even Trace service dept keeps logs of who sends them stuff that's really >broke and who sends bogus problems) > >Allan at Positive Energy >-----Original Message----- >From: Don Loweburg, Offline >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Date: Thursday, August 31, 2000 10:30 PM >Subject: Re: Referral [RE-wrenches] > > > >In a message dated 08/31/2000 4:40:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > >ellison at gisco.net writes: > > > ><< Let's go for it, > > Bob Ellison > > >> > >This is great. For sometime I've felt the IPP site was underutilized but > >didn't have the juice to do anything about it. This is perfect. Michael, > >what do I need to do for this to happen?Best, Don > > > >- - - - - - - > >To send a message: > > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > > >The archive of previous messages: > > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > www.homepower.com > > > >For info contact list moderator by email: > > michael.welch at homepower.com > >___________________________________________________________ > >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics ----------------- Sierra Solar Systems 109-N Argall Way Nevada City, CA 95959 tech info and foreign orders: (530) 265-8441 order line: (800) 51-SOLAR (US only) FAX: (530) 265-6151 e-mail: world wide web: Because of the high volume of e-mail to which I respond, please leave _all_ of the previous message (unless it's unbearable) in your reply so I can better remember your original message. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From wstahle at slonet.org Wed Sep 6 01:29:16 2000 From: wstahle at slonet.org (Wallace Stahle, Future Elec. Energy Co.) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 22:29:16 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1485865435-951758591-968189239@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.774851585-951758591-968218156@topica.com> Don Loweburg, Offline wrote: > Wrenches and IPP members, > Besides company name, address, contact info, we have a field > for years of experience installing, certification, licensing, or contractor > status. Don, This is sounding great. What are the chances of including years of electrical experience in addition to RE work? I've been a full time electrician for over twenty years which goes a long ways towards amplifying my last two years of PV obsession. Even then, I am still doing a lot of sparky work as I develop my business and presence here in the county. I dread too limited a form that would squeeze me into a space that implies I am at an apprentice level. Would I be able to include my two weeks at SEI in 1995 for instance? Conversely, there is a lot of operational quirks I have yet to see in systems, which is the beauty of this list. I just want to say here how fortunate I feel to be here and have access to all your comments and advice as topics come and go. I feel like I'm in the presence of "The Elders"( RE elders that is) Heh, heh! Hows that fit? In any case Don and all, theres more grist for the mill. Thanks for your energy to make this happen. Wally Stahle ps. Maybe number of systems installed would be a way to quantify: 1-10, 10-20, 20-50, 50-100, 100+syatems. Also a reference or two to a willing past client would give the shopper an option to verify the listing. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From allan at positivenergy.com Wed Sep 6 01:50:13 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 22:50:13 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1978213130-212058698-968219413@topica.com> I'd be OK with that, even though technically I'd fail the 5 yr min by 6 mos...Allan -----Original Message----- From: Jonathan Hill To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Date: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 11:23 PM Subject: Re: Referral [RE-wrenches] >>Why not a 5 year minimum time in The RE biz, or a recommendation >>from someone who has been there that long? > >Jon HIll > >>I like the idea a lot, but I share the concern of others re how to establish >>some controls on who can be on the list. Eventually this could become the >>definitive list of bona-fide wrenching dealers with solid reputations. >>There should be some clearly-defined set of qualifications to be on it, as >>some of those who are least qualified may want the most to be included. I >>would like to see the discussion continue about how to structure a procedure >>for qualifying applicants, that all would have to go through, including all >>of us. >> I don't have good answers on what to require, though. There's no >>testing standard, and wrenches are a notoriously independent bunch. Perhaps >>an old-timers review committee, with Bob-o, Richard, Steve..(where's a >>woman's name when I need one?), others who have been around the block a few >>times...it's still a pretty small industry. >> >>(even Trace service dept keeps logs of who sends them stuff that's really >>broke and who sends bogus problems) >> >>Allan at Positive Energy >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Don Loweburg, Offline >>To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >>Date: Thursday, August 31, 2000 10:30 PM >>Subject: Re: Referral [RE-wrenches] >> >> >> >In a message dated 08/31/2000 4:40:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time, >> >ellison at gisco.net writes: >> > >> ><< Let's go for it, >> > Bob Ellison >> > >> >> >This is great. For sometime I've felt the IPP site was underutilized but >> >didn't have the juice to do anything about it. This is perfect. Michael, >> >what do I need to do for this to happen?Best, Don >> > >> >- - - - - - - >> >To send a message: >> > RE-wrenches at topica.com >> > >> >The archive of previous messages: >> > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ >> > >> >To unsubscribe send a message to: >> > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com >> > >> >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: >> > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html >> > >> >Hosted by Home Power magazine: >> > www.homepower.com >> > >> >For info contact list moderator by email: >> > michael.welch at homepower.com >> >___________________________________________________________ >> >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >> >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics >> > >> >>- - - - - - - >>To send a message: >> RE-wrenches at topica.com >> >>The archive of previous messages: >> http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ >> >>To unsubscribe send a message to: >> RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com >> >>To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: >> www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html >> >>Hosted by Home Power magazine: >> www.homepower.com >> >>For info contact list moderator by email: >> michael.welch at homepower.com >>___________________________________________________________ >>T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >>Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > >----------------- > >Sierra Solar Systems >109-N Argall Way >Nevada City, CA 95959 >tech info and foreign orders: (530) 265-8441 >order line: (800) 51-SOLAR (US only) FAX: (530) 265-6151 >e-mail: >world wide web: > >Because of the high volume of e-mail to which I respond, please >leave _all_ of the previous message (unless it's unbearable) in > your reply so I can better remember your original message. > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From allan at positivenergy.com Wed Sep 6 01:58:33 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 22:58:33 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.513903684-951758591-968219913@topica.com> Wally has some good ideas, here, too. "Number of systems" is a good measure, and it speaks to what being a wrench is, which is an installing dealer, not a mail-order or internet peddler. This begets another heading, "Service existing systems?" or the like. Maybe a "highlights of qualifications" section, to mention SEI courses, special qualifications, and the things that Don mentions Allan at Positive Energy -----Original Message----- From: Wallace Stahle, Future Elec. Energy Co. To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Date: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 11:34 PM Subject: Re: Referral [RE-wrenches] > > >Don Loweburg, Offline wrote: > >> Wrenches and IPP members, > >> Besides company name, address, contact info, we have a field >> for years of experience installing, certification, licensing, or contractor >> status. > >Don, > >This is sounding great. What are the chances of including years of electrical >experience in addition to RE work? > >I've been a full time electrician for over twenty years which goes a long ways >towards amplifying my last two years of PV obsession. Even then, I am still >doing a lot of sparky work as I develop my business and presence here in the >county. > >I dread too limited a form that would squeeze me into a space that implies I am >at an apprentice level. Would I be able to include my two weeks at SEI in 1995 >for instance? Conversely, there is a lot of operational quirks I have yet to >see in systems, which is the beauty of this list. > >I just want to say here how fortunate I feel to be here and have access to all >your comments and advice as topics come and go. I feel like I'm in the presence >of >"The Elders"( RE elders that is) Heh, heh! Hows that fit? > >In any case Don and all, theres more grist for the mill. Thanks for your >energy to make this happen. > >Wally Stahle > >ps. Maybe number of systems installed would be a way to quantify: 1-10, >10-20, 20-50, 50-100, 100+syatems. > >Also a reference or two to a willing past client would give the shopper an >option to verify the listing. > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From inkings at swcp.com Wed Sep 6 02:24:01 2000 From: inkings at swcp.com (paul wilkins) Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 23:24:01 -0700 Subject: new site [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1797178128-212058698-968221441@topica.com> A new site full of info is http://www.pvportal.com Why they listed Raytheon I dont understand but the rest is interesting. Links to a bunch of stuff. Paul Wilkins - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solarjon at netshel.net Wed Sep 6 12:30:06 2000 From: solarjon at netshel.net (Jonathan Hill) Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 09:30:06 -0700 Subject: RE Wrench Hall [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.758226975-951758591-967850712@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.837122490-951758591-967841221@topica.com> <0.1300002502.758226975-951758591-967850712@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1199621740-951758591-968257806@topica.com> >Steve- Can you publish name, location, and phone # for these folks? We could start the list like this! Jon Hill >It works. We refer people to local licensed electricians who specialize and >are experienced in solar. They contract with them independently. One, >Scott Jochim, has followed referrals from there and been flown to Georgia >and to Alaska several times for jobs people ask him to come back and do. >They pay the travel. Just have to get that word of mouth referral going. >Another, Drake Chamberlain did a lot of traveling for solar installs. Don >Wallingford knows all about Drake's experiences. > >Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com >Backwoods Solar Electric Systems > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Don Wallingford, Quicksilver Electrical >To: RE Wreches List >Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 1:47 PM >Subject: RE Wrench Hall [RE-wrenches] > > > > Travis, I think you just might be onto something there. I don't know >how many of us small timers could travel for work (someone has to be here to >mind the shop), but your idea might be a good way to solve the problem of >too much help or not enough help. I personally know two young men who have >worked for me who might be thrilled at the prospect of wandering around >working RE installations. And, they're not totally unskilled, either. >After nine years in business, I'm on my sixth or seventh apprentice >currently. All of them have received some good training and instruction, >but have moved on. Then, there are two messages on my answering machine now >from journeymen electricians wanting to work on RE. There's no way I can >offer full-time work to either of them, but, if there were a place for them >to sign up and wait for the call, I'll bet they would. > > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics ----------------- Sierra Solar Systems 109-N Argall Way Nevada City, CA 95959 tech info and foreign orders: (530) 265-8441 order line: (800) 51-SOLAR (US only) FAX: (530) 265-6151 e-mail: world wide web: Because of the high volume of e-mail to which I respond, please leave _all_ of the previous message (unless it's unbearable) in your reply so I can better remember your original message. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Wed Sep 6 15:00:28 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 12:00:28 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.2127761947-951758591-967842778@topica.com> <0.1300002502.249335662-212058698-968217519@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2070315489-951758591-968266828@topica.com> When that directory list grows to 500 installers, will it then be discontinued as no longer needed? Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ian.woofenden at homepower.com Wed Sep 6 15:10:27 2000 From: ian.woofenden at homepower.com (Ian Woofenden, Home Power) Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 12:10:27 -0700 Subject: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1198498443-212058698-967691854@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1198498443-212058698-967691854@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1018616620-212058698-968267427@topica.com> Hey Bob, I've measured our Neptune at 105 WH (AC, post inverter) per load with a Brand meter, which is better than the Staber. Perhaps you are referring to stats on a model with a built-in water heater? One salesman mentioned that the new model would have this (questionable) feature. We are really pleased with this machine. Ian At 8:17 PM -0700 8/30/00, Bob Ellison, Alternative Energy Systems wrote: >The last info that I had on the Neptune is that it is NOT an efficient >washer. It draws considerably more than the Staber and a HUGE amount of >water, I have been told that it constantly replaces water to cut down on >sudsing..... So it uses lots of water and pump run time. -- Ian Woofenden , Fax: 360-293-7034 Associate Editor, Home Power magazine, The Hands-On Journal Of Home-Made Power Editors are Professional Idiots - We misunderstand text so our readers won't. HP subscriptions: $22.50 per year, PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA 800-707-6585 (US), 541-512-0220, or download current issue at - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From toddcory at jps.net Wed Sep 6 15:20:01 2000 From: toddcory at jps.net (Todd Cory, Bald Mt. Solar) Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 12:20:01 -0700 Subject: 12 VDC battery charger [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1198498443-212058698-967691854@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1018616620-212058698-968267427@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.647480628-212058698-968268001@topica.com> Hi list members, I am looking for a 12 volt battery charger. I have an old one that was carried by Radio Shack years ago. Charges up to 4 D, C, AA ni-cads. The unit has a cigarette lighter type of plug. If anyone knows where to get something like this it would be greatly appreciated. Todd Cory - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Wed Sep 6 16:57:41 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 13:57:41 -0700 Subject: RE Wrench Hall [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.837122490-951758591-967841221@topica.com><0.1300002502.758226975-951758591-967850712@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1199621740-951758591-968257806@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.97922482-212058698-968273861@topica.com> Jon, the whole list I have used is on my website under NEWSLETTER section on Solar Helpers page. I think you can consider that public information and use that if you wish. All have agreed to be listed there, not all are members of the wrench list however. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems From: Jonathan Hill To: Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 9:30 AM Subject: Re: RE Wrench Hall [RE-wrenches] > >Steve- > Can you publish name, location, and phone # for these folks? We could > start the list like this! > Jon Hill - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ellison at gisco.net Wed Sep 6 17:17:02 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison, Alternative Energy Systems) Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 14:17:02 -0700 Subject: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1018616620-212058698-968267427@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.31689943-212058698-968275022@topica.com> When they first came out the local store spent a lot of time with me on a learning curve, MAYTAG told them that the power usage was 285 WH. Maybe they have changed things sense then? They even told me that it was not designed to be super efficient. Any idea how it does on water use? Heard a rumor you were in my back yard recently any truth to it?? Bob -----Original Message----- From: Ian Woofenden, Home Power [mailto:ian.woofenden at homepower.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 3:10 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: RE: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] Hey Bob, I've measured our Neptune at 105 WH (AC, post inverter) per load with a Brand meter, which is better than the Staber. Perhaps you are referring to stats on a model with a built-in water heater? One salesman mentioned that the new model would have this (questionable) feature. We are really pleased with this machine. Ian At 8:17 PM -0700 8/30/00, Bob Ellison, Alternative Energy Systems wrote: >The last info that I had on the Neptune is that it is NOT an efficient >washer. It draws considerably more than the Staber and a HUGE amount of >water, I have been told that it constantly replaces water to cut down on >sudsing..... So it uses lots of water and pump run time. -- Ian Woofenden , Fax: 360-293-7034 Associate Editor, Home Power magazine, The Hands-On Journal Of Home-Made Power Editors are Professional Idiots - We misunderstand text so our readers won't. HP subscriptions: $22.50 per year, PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA 800-707-6585 (US), 541-512-0220, or download current issue at - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From vtsolar1 at together.net Wed Sep 6 17:57:32 2000 From: vtsolar1 at together.net (Kirk Herander, VT Solar) Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 14:57:32 -0700 Subject: installer's list [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1485865435-951758591-968189239@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.305679282-212058698-968277452@topica.com> Hello all, 1) I think that having a installer list is a great idea, but I'd like to call it a dealer / installer list. It is safe to assume that most of us would prefer not to install equipment we didn't sell to the customer (and perhaps wouldn't recommend), especially if purchased from some big box solar mart. The HP add / list should encourage working with (from start to finish) and buying from the wrench who will be doing the install. 2) The HP add may not be able to accommodate all who want to be listed, due to space limitations. What then? 3) Don, please tell me how to join IPP again. Thanks. regards, Kirk "Don Loweburg, Offline" wrote: > Wrenches and IPP members, > > Michael tells me it would be easy to set up a spreadsheet listing on the IPP > web page. Since Ive only heard positve responces, it's a go. > > There has been some discussion about qualifications. Here's what I think > should be done. Besides company name, address, contact info, we have a field > for years of experience installing, certification, licensing, or contractor > status. In other words we don't set standards but we do give the potential > customer full information. They are responsible for choosing. We may also > include an IPP disclaimer. In addition we encourage customer feedback. If IPP > gets negative responses about any work done or other practices by our > refferals, then IPP has the option of removing a listing. Of course IPP would > contact both parties seeking resolution first. > > I will discuss the wrenchs list in the next IPP column. I also want to run a > display add in the next Homepower. IPP logo with something to the > effect..Need a Wrench > > To do the add I need a few new members (thank you to who have newly joined) > and of course any re-ups are welcome. > > As a formality I need to run this by the board. What say you Bob O and > Richard? > > Understanding that we need to keep this simple ,are there suggestions or > ommisions on my part. > > Don Loweburg > IPP > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From michael.welch at homepower.com Wed Sep 6 18:20:07 2000 From: michael.welch at homepower.com (Michael Welch, Home Power) Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 15:20:07 -0700 Subject: installer's list [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.305679282-212058698-968277452@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1485865435-951758591-968189239@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.308324637-212058698-968278807@topica.com> Kirk Herander, VT Solar wrote at 02:57 PM 09/06/2000 -0700: >1) I think that having a installer list is a great idea, but I'd like to call it >a dealer / installer list. It is safe to assume that most of us would prefer not >to install equipment we didn't sell to the customer (and perhaps wouldn't >recommend), especially if purchased from some big box solar mart. The HP add / >list should encourage working with (from start to finish) and buying from the >wrench who will be doing the install. Might I suggest the term "installing dealers" since it is regularly used in the industry. Not sure who to credit, but I first heard it from Richard Perez. >2) The HP add may not be able to accommodate all who want to be listed, due to space limitations. What then? Ad size is the question here if the goal really is to list them all, and my guess is that Richard will make it work. That said, I am not convinced it is a good idea to list them all in the ad. It might be best to describe the resource and how to get it -- 1) via the i2p.org web site, 2) by an autoresponse mail message that sends the list within an email message when an interested party sends a message to, for example RE_Installing_Dealers at i2p.org, and 3) via snail mail at the IPP postal address. Michael Welch ------------------------ "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." Edward Abbey Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com Associate Editor, Home Power magazine Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From allan at positivenergy.com Wed Sep 6 18:38:10 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 15:38:10 -0700 Subject: 12 VDC battery charger [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.850049269-212058698-968279890@topica.com> Applied Power (formerly AEE), 800 777-6609. Part #87-121, $18 retail. Allan at Positive Energy -----Original Message----- From: Todd Cory, Bald Mt. Solar To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Date: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 1:24 PM Subject: 12 VDC battery charger [RE-wrenches] >Hi list members, > >I am looking for a 12 volt battery charger. I have an old one that was carried by >Radio Shack years ago. Charges up to 4 D, C, AA ni-cads. The unit has a cigarette >lighter type of plug. If anyone knows where to get something like this it would be >greatly appreciated. > >Todd Cory > > > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cpae1 at aol.com Wed Sep 6 19:18:26 2000 From: cpae1 at aol.com (Frank Fowler, Crystal Pines Alt. Energy ) Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 16:18:26 -0700 Subject: installer's list [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.30775838-212058698-968282306@topica.com> Kirk, Go to www.homepower.com/ipp - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ian.woofenden at homepower.com Wed Sep 6 19:37:26 2000 From: ian.woofenden at homepower.com (Ian Woofenden, Home Power) Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 16:37:26 -0700 Subject: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.31689943-212058698-968275022@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.31689943-212058698-968275022@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.552574081-212058698-968283446@topica.com> Hi Bob, At 2:17 PM -0700 9/6/00, Bob Ellison, Alternative Energy Systems wrote: >When they first came out the local store spent a lot of time with me on a >learning curve, MAYTAG told them that the power usage was 285 WH. Maybe they >have changed things sense then? They even told me that it was not designed >to be super efficient. I don't know where that came from. Bob Maynard recommend the Neptune to me as one of the most efficient models out there, and I've checked ours multiple times with the Brand meter. >Any idea how it does on water use? No. Does Brand Electronics make a water use meter? ;-) Is there a simple and cheap water use meter out there. It would be interesting to play with. >Heard a rumor you were in my back yard recently any truth to it?? > >Bob We landed back on the island today after a 6 week 8K mile trip from here to Maine, with various stops along the way, including SolWest, three days at Mick Sagrillo's, a rendezvous with the SEI wind workshop in Colorado, and tracking down a wind homebrewer on the coast of Maine (see HP79). Not sure how close we got to you, since we went through NYC (big mistake) on the way to Maine, and skirted around it on 84 on the way to Philly on the way back. It would have been fun to make lots of RE stops, but I had the whole family, and their attention span for windmills is shorter than mine. We did see a lot of wind generators and PVs, and the kids sang out when they saw them. Maybe I should go solo with the bus for the RE Wrenches Tour... (Where'd you hear that rumor?) Best, Ian >-----Original Message----- >From: Ian Woofenden, Home Power [mailto:ian.woofenden at homepower.com] >Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 3:10 PM >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Subject: RE: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] > > >Hey Bob, > >I've measured our Neptune at 105 WH (AC, post inverter) per load with >a Brand meter, which is better than the Staber. > >Perhaps you are referring to stats on a model with a built-in water >heater? One salesman mentioned that the new model would have this >(questionable) feature. > >We are really pleased with this machine. > >Ian > >At 8:17 PM -0700 8/30/00, Bob Ellison, Alternative Energy Systems wrote: >>The last info that I had on the Neptune is that it is NOT an efficient >>washer. It draws considerably more than the Staber and a HUGE amount of >>water, I have been told that it constantly replaces water to cut down on >>sudsing..... So it uses lots of water and pump run time. >-- >Ian Woofenden , Fax: 360-293-7034 >Associate Editor, Home Power magazine, The Hands-On Journal Of Home-Made >Power >Editors are Professional Idiots - We misunderstand text so our readers >won't. > >HP subscriptions: $22.50 per year, PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA >800-707-6585 (US), 541-512-0220, or download current issue at > > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics -- Ian Woofenden , Fax: 360-293-7034 Associate Editor, Home Power magazine, The Hands-On Journal Of Home-Made Power Editors are Professional Idiots - We misunderstand text so our readers won't. HP subscriptions: $22.50 per year, PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA 800-707-6585 (US), 541-512-0220, or download current issue at - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From tom at ecs-solar.com Wed Sep 6 21:29:46 2000 From: tom at ecs-solar.com (tom) Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 18:29:46 -0700 Subject: Fla activity [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1485865435-951758591-968189239@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1850538085-212058698-968290186@topica.com> Dear FlaSEIA Member: You should have received information about the 2000 Annual Meeting of FlaSEIA. It will be held in conjunction with the 25th Anniversary of the Florida Solar Energy Center, September 22 & 23. A very full weekend is planned, and FlaSEIA will be participating by sponsoring solar exhibits during the Open House, conducting the annual membership meeting, and concluding with the annual awards banquet. The Florida Chapter of the American Solar Energy Society will be holding its organizational meeting and will be joining FlaSEIA for the awards banquet. There is no fee for participating in the Annual Meeting or Open House; however, registration is requested for planning purposes. If you would like to exhibit during the open house, please contact Bill Guiney at 321-638-1012. If you plan to attend the FlaSEIA Annual Meeting, please respond to this email. The annual award banquet is schedule for Saturday, September 23, and registration is required. The banquet is preceded by a reception and the cost for the entire evening is a $40. Please join us! Do not overlook opportunities to sponsor functions during the weekend, including the Friday Board Luncheon, Annual Meeting refreshment break, Saturday reception and the Awards Banquet. Sponsor Opportunity information is included with your registration materials. The host hotel for the weekend is the Holiday Inn Cocoa Beach Resort. A room block has been set aside for FlaSEIA at rates of $75 for a standard room and $139 for a loft. The hotel has been recently renovated, and offers full service resort amenities, and is family friendly. The reservation deadline is Sept. 7, so time is of the essence! Hotel phone # is 321-783-2271. Refer to Florida Solar Energy to get the special rate. If you have not received your reservation materials, please let me know ASAP. I look forward to seeing you! Tom Lane ECS web page www.ecs-solar.com - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cvsolar at aol.com Wed Sep 6 23:30:44 2000 From: cvsolar at aol.com (John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind) Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 20:30:44 -0700 Subject: 12 VDC battery charger [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1708678532-212058698-968297444@topica.com> Todd, I think I just saw one in C.E.T.'s (Creative Energy Technologies) showroom in Summit, NY 888-305-0278 Tell Carsten I sent you. John Blittersdorf CVSolar - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From dmccorkl at sover.net Thu Sep 7 06:31:29 2000 From: dmccorkl at sover.net (dmccorkl at sover.net) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 03:31:29 -0700 Subject: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.31689943-212058698-968275022@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.96982630-212058698-968322689@topica.com> A note on the Gibson - we've used ours for two years, I've been very pleased with it. The first year was on a 4024 without any problems. It uses between 125 and 145 WH per load, but I don't know about water use. Doug McCorkle -----Original Message----- From: Bob Ellison, Alternative Energy Systems [mailto:ellison at gisco.net] Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 5:17 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: RE: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] When they first came out the local store spent a lot of time with me on a learning curve, MAYTAG told them that the power usage was 285 WH. Maybe they have changed things sense then? They even told me that it was not designed to be super efficient. Any idea how it does on water use? - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From toddcory at jps.net Thu Sep 7 09:41:52 2000 From: toddcory at jps.net (Todd Cory, Bald Mt. Solar) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 06:41:52 -0700 Subject: help with hydro site calcs [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.96982630-212058698-968322689@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2004006833-212058698-968334112@topica.com> Hi List, I am needing some information on sizing a hydro installation. Generally one knows the available flow in GPM, but this situation is a bit different. The customer has water rights off a ditch to "take up to a 2" pipe's worth of water". Running 675' of 2" PVC, he will have 60' of head. I need to know what kind of maximum flow will run through a 2" pipe. I can't seem to find any charts listing this. Once I know that, I can figure friction loss and estimate the net pressure available at the generator site. Also is there an easy to figure estimated output in watts knowing net head and flow? I need to size the Harris and delivery wire. Thanks in advance. Todd - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunwise at win.bright.net Thu Sep 7 11:40:55 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (Kurt Nelson, SunWise) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 08:40:55 -0700 Subject: Winco gen-set [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.15716087-951758591-968341255@topica.com> Okay, I'm off my soap box now in regards to the referral issue. Got a problem with a generator (Winco 6.5?). Did a solar install for a woman who had been using the above mentioned gen-set. Turns out, when I left there last fall, she never started her gen-set again. I told her about exersizing the generator and maintenance/EQ charges on the battery, but she just let the solar go and all was well. The other day she changed oil on the genny and decided to run the generator. Now it and it won't start (crank). I found the starter battery dead and jumped it to my truck battery. Went to the Trace's generator menu and to "on". Generator started and after a minute or two I removed the truck's jumper and it immediately died. Here's the real problem, now it will not crank again, even if I repeat the jumper deal. I looked in vain for some type of reset button (DC breaker by the auto/off/run switch looks good), but have found nothing blown or tripped. Can't get it to crank from the manual "on" switch either. Any thoughts of what may have happened when I took the truck battery (truck not running) off the gen-set's starter battery? Appreciated -- Kurt Nelson - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Thu Sep 7 12:08:18 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 09:08:18 -0700 Subject: help with hydro site calcs [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.96982630-212058698-968322689@topica.com> <0.1300002502.2004006833-212058698-968334112@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1273053810-951758591-968342898@topica.com> The actual flow taken will be determined by the nozzle size used and that limited by friction loss of head in the pipe. I doubt they would understand using a larger than allowed pipe with the explanation that the nozzle restricts flow to 80 gpm and the 4 inch pipe is just to avoid friction. Such an arrangement would be fair if he can get a gallon figure quoted from the authority granting a 2 inch pipe. However they probably don't trust that it will be nozzled down as that would not be the case in irrigation. A 2 inch pipe about 700 feet long with 60 feet head would lend itself to a Harris unit using in the neighborhood of 50 gpm, accepting a 10 foot head loss to friction in that 2" pipeline. This would produce 200 -225 watts output with probably 2 nozzle unit between 3/8 and 1/2 inch nozzle size range. If you can get them to agree to use a larger pipe and accept 4 nozzles of that size as flow restriction rather than pipe size, you could more than double the power produced. However 200 watts full time is very usable for an efficiently designed home. Don Harris could give a closer estimate and instruction, but unfortunately is not on line yet. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems A catalog business on a mountain 2 miles from utility lines, powered entirely by our catalog products. IF UTILITY POWER IS 1/2 MILE OR MORE FROM YOUR SITE, get our free 160 page solar-electric Planning Guide/Catalog. (Your postal address required - Our list is never given or sold). Phone(208)263-4290 Fax (208) 265-4788 in Idaho, USA ----- Original Message ----- From: Todd Cory, Bald Mt. Solar To: Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 6:41 AM Subject: help with hydro site calcs [RE-wrenches] > Hi List, > > I am needing some information on sizing a hydro installation. Generally one > knows the available flow in GPM, but this situation is a bit different. The > customer has water rights off a ditch to "take up to a 2" pipe's worth of > water". Running 675' of 2" PVC, he will have 60' of head. > > I need to know what kind of maximum flow will run through a 2" pipe. I can't > seem to find any charts listing this. Once I know that, I can figure friction > loss and estimate the net pressure available at the generator site. > > Also is there an easy to figure estimated output in watts knowing net head and > flow? I need to size the Harris and delivery wire. > > Thanks in advance. > > Todd > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solarjon at netshel.net Thu Sep 7 12:38:40 2000 From: solarjon at netshel.net (Jonathan Hill) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 09:38:40 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1485865435-951758591-968189239@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1485865435-951758591-968189239@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.283389040-951758591-968344720@topica.com> >Don- Your ideas are excellent. give them all the information and let them decide. Be sure to list whether the installers will install equipment purchased elsewhere. Jon HIll >Wrenches and IPP members, > >Michael tells me it would be easy to set up a spreadsheet listing on the IPP >web page. Since Ive only heard positve responces, it's a go. > >There has been some discussion about qualifications. Here's what I think >should be done. Besides company name, address, contact info, we have a field >for years of experience installing, certification, licensing, or contractor >status. In other words we don't set standards but we do give the potential >customer full information. They are responsible for choosing. We may also >include an IPP disclaimer. In addition we encourage customer feedback. If IPP >gets negative responses about any work done or other practices by our >refferals, then IPP has the option of removing a listing. Of course IPP would >contact both parties seeking resolution first. > >I will discuss the wrenchs list in the next IPP column. I also want to run a >display add in the next Homepower. IPP logo with something to the >effect..Need a Wrench > >To do the add I need a few new members (thank you to who have newly joined) >and of course any re-ups are welcome. > >As a formality I need to run this by the board. What say you Bob O and >Richard? > >Understanding that we need to keep this simple ,are there suggestions or >ommisions on my part. > >Don Loweburg >IPP > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics ----------------- Sierra Solar Systems 109-N Argall Way Nevada City, CA 95959 tech info and foreign orders: (530) 265-8441 order line: (800) 51-SOLAR (US only) FAX: (530) 265-6151 e-mail: world wide web: Because of the high volume of e-mail to which I respond, please leave _all_ of the previous message (unless it's unbearable) in your reply so I can better remember your original message. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solarjon at netshel.net Thu Sep 7 12:59:12 2000 From: solarjon at netshel.net (Jonathan Hill) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 09:59:12 -0700 Subject: Trace SW noise levels. [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.2088134084-212058698-968027634@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1278964949-212058698-967858096@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1796601503-951758591-968006120@topica.com> <0.1300002502.2088134084-212058698-968027634@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1499192365-212058698-968345952@topica.com> Carl- >We always recommend putting the inverter in a shed, garage, or >basement, both to reduce noise as well as EMF from the transformer. Jon Hill, Sierra Solar Systems >Hullo there... > >Has anyone had complaints about the audible noise of Trace SW inverters ?? > >If so what acoustic measures were taken to lower the running noise >of the unit. > >-- >Regards, > > >Carl Emerson >Manager >FREEPOWER LTD. "Harnessing Natural Energy" > >AUCKLAND >356 East Coast Road, Mairangi Bay, P.O. Box 68-247, AUCKLAND, New >Zealand. >Voice +64 9 478-0404 Mobile 021-633999 Cellfax 021-2919399 >Fax +64 9 478-0405 Email emerson at freepower.co.nz > > > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics ----------------- Sierra Solar Systems 109-N Argall Way Nevada City, CA 95959 tech info and foreign orders: (530) 265-8441 order line: (800) 51-SOLAR (US only) FAX: (530) 265-6151 e-mail: world wide web: Because of the high volume of e-mail to which I respond, please leave _all_ of the previous message (unless it's unbearable) in your reply so I can better remember your original message. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From bob at energyoutfitters.com Thu Sep 7 14:24:19 2000 From: bob at energyoutfitters.com (Bob Maynard, Energy Outfitters) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 11:24:19 -0700 Subject: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.31689943-212058698-968275022@topica.com> <0.1300002502.552574081-212058698-968283446@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.529639118-212058698-968351059@topica.com> Ian and all, Haven't found a cheap or easy water flow meter, but have extended the waste water discharge hose on washers into bath tubs, 50 gallon drums, etc. to catch the water and then measure the volume. I think(don't trust MY memory) that the Maytag spec was 18 gal per load. Staber comment: Yes they are designed for owner repair, but I found that I was taking it apart and working on it much more than I ever wanted to. Granted this was 3-4 years ago and it could be a better product now, but I have a long memory when it comes to less than pleasant experiences. Regards, Bob Maynard Energy Outfitters 800-GO-SOLAR "Ian Woofenden, Home Power" wrote: > Hi Bob, > > At 2:17 PM -0700 9/6/00, Bob Ellison, Alternative Energy Systems wrote: > >When they first came out the local store spent a lot of time with me on a > >learning curve, MAYTAG told them that the power usage was 285 WH. Maybe they > >have changed things sense then? They even told me that it was not designed > >to be super efficient. > > I don't know where that came from. Bob Maynard recommend the Neptune > to me as one of the most efficient models out there, and I've checked > ours multiple times with the Brand meter. > > >Any idea how it does on water use? > > No. Does Brand Electronics make a water use meter? ;-) > Is there a simple and cheap water use meter out there. It would be > interesting to play with. > > >Heard a rumor you were in my back yard recently any truth to it?? > > > >Bob > > We landed back on the island today after a 6 week 8K mile trip from > here to Maine, with various stops along the way, including SolWest, > three days at Mick Sagrillo's, a rendezvous with the SEI wind > workshop in Colorado, and tracking down a wind homebrewer on the > coast of Maine (see HP79). Not sure how close we got to you, since we > went through NYC (big mistake) on the way to Maine, and skirted > around it on 84 on the way to Philly on the way back. > > It would have been fun to make lots of RE stops, but I had the whole > family, and their attention span for windmills is shorter than mine. > We did see a lot of wind generators and PVs, and the kids sang out > when they saw them. Maybe I should go solo with the bus for the RE > Wrenches Tour... > > (Where'd you hear that rumor?) > > Best, > > Ian > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Ian Woofenden, Home Power [mailto:ian.woofenden at homepower.com] > >Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 3:10 PM > >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > >Subject: RE: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] > > > > > >Hey Bob, > > > >I've measured our Neptune at 105 WH (AC, post inverter) per load with > >a Brand meter, which is better than the Staber. > > > >Perhaps you are referring to stats on a model with a built-in water > >heater? One salesman mentioned that the new model would have this > >(questionable) feature. > > > >We are really pleased with this machine. > > > >Ian > > > >At 8:17 PM -0700 8/30/00, Bob Ellison, Alternative Energy Systems wrote: > >>The last info that I had on the Neptune is that it is NOT an efficient > >>washer. It draws considerably more than the Staber and a HUGE amount of > >>water, I have been told that it constantly replaces water to cut down on > >>sudsing..... So it uses lots of water and pump run time. > >-- > >Ian Woofenden , Fax: 360-293-7034 > >Associate Editor, Home Power magazine, The Hands-On Journal Of Home-Made > >Power > >Editors are Professional Idiots - We misunderstand text so our readers > >won't. > > > >HP subscriptions: $22.50 per year, PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA > >800-707-6585 (US), 541-512-0220, or download current issue at > > > > > >- - - - - - - > >To send a message: > > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > > >The archive of previous messages: > > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > www.homepower.com > > > >For info contact list moderator by email: > > michael.welch at homepower.com > >___________________________________________________________ > >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > > >- - - - - - - > >To send a message: > > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > > >The archive of previous messages: > > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > www.homepower.com > > > >For info contact list moderator by email: > > michael.welch at homepower.com > >___________________________________________________________ > >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > -- > Ian Woofenden , Fax: 360-293-7034 > Associate Editor, Home Power magazine, The Hands-On Journal Of Home-Made Power > Editors are Professional Idiots - We misunderstand text so our readers won't. > > HP subscriptions: $22.50 per year, PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA > 800-707-6585 (US), 541-512-0220, or download current issue at > > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From michael.welch at homepower.com Thu Sep 7 14:48:37 2000 From: michael.welch at homepower.com (Michael Welch, Home Power) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 11:48:37 -0700 Subject: help with hydro site calcs [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.2004006833-212058698-968334112@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.96982630-212058698-968322689@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.619654490-951758591-968352517@topica.com> Todd Cory, Bald Mt. Solar wrote at 06:41 AM 9/7/2000 -0700: >I need to know what kind of maximum flow will run through a 2" pipe. I can't >seem to find any charts listing this. Once I know that, I can figure friction >loss and estimate the net pressure available at the generator site. There are pipe friction loss tables available for download on Home Power's Downloads2 page. Michael Welch ------------------------ "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." Edward Abbey Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com Associate Editor, Home Power magazine Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From richard.perez at homepower.com Thu Sep 7 16:19:11 2000 From: richard.perez at homepower.com (Richard Perez, Home Power magazine) Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 13:19:11 -0700 Subject: 12 VDC battery charger [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.647480628-212058698-968268001@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1198498443-212058698-967691854@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1018616620-212058698-968267427@topica.com> <0.1300002502.647480628-212058698-968268001@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1674516399-951758591-968357951@topica.com> Hello Todd Check out the MAHA chargers advertised in QST magazine. Bob-O and I use them and they are great! Richard >Hi list members, > >I am looking for a 12 volt battery charger. I have an old one that >was carried by >Radio Shack years ago. Charges up to 4 D, C, AA ni-cads. The unit >has a cigarette >lighter type of plug. If anyone knows where to get something like >this it would be >greatly appreciated. > >Todd Cory ------------------------------------ Richard Pérez Home Power PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA Tele: 530-475-3179 FAX: 530-475-0836 Subscriptions: 800-707-6585 mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com Web: http://www.homepower.com - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Fri Sep 8 08:53:06 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 05:53:06 -0700 Subject: help with hydro site calcs [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2063419395-212058698-968417586@topica.com> Steve, I haven't done any micro hydro but I have looked at several potential sites so take that I really have no idea what I am talking about. Around here most of the sites I've looked at would need major land work just to get a few hundred watts. What if you started out with a few feet of 2" pipe to meet the restrictions then stepped up to 4" for the remainder of the run to the nozzles? Travis Creswell Ozark Solar ---------- >From: "Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar" >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Subject: Re: help with hydro site calcs [RE-wrenches] >Date: Thu, Sep 7, 2000, 11:08 AM > >I doubt they would understand >using a larger than allowed pipe with the explanation that the nozzle >restricts flow to 80 gpm and the 4 inch pipe is just to avoid friction. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From toddcory at jps.net Fri Sep 8 10:15:05 2000 From: toddcory at jps.net (Todd Cory, Bald Mt. Solar) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 07:15:05 -0700 Subject: 12 VDC battery charger [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1198498443-212058698-967691854@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1018616620-212058698-968267427@topica.com> <0.1300002502.647480628-212058698-968268001@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1674516399-951758591-968357951@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.563692533-212058698-968422505@topica.com> Hi Richard, Hope you are enjoying a return of late summer weather following the labor day weekend. It really got the tourists outa here fast!! I no longer get QST mag, can you give me contact info for these chargers. Thanks in advance... and for all the fine work you do for us and the planet. Todd "Richard Perez, Home Power magazine" wrote: > Hello Todd > > Check out the MAHA chargers advertised in QST magazine. Bob-O and I > use them and they are great! > > Richard > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From j.lamb at pecorp.com Fri Sep 8 11:10:45 2000 From: j.lamb at pecorp.com (James Lamb, Middle Fork Engineering) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 08:10:45 -0700 Subject: help with fixing hydro site [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1621410120-951758591-968425845@topica.com> I need a referral for someone to work on an existing Harris microhydro site in Hohenwald (Hole in Wall ?) Tennessee. It is located 1 hour SouthWest of Nashville. I am looking for somebody local willing to work on this system. Please email me at lambj at pecorp.com, Thanks Jim Lamb Middlefork Engineering > ---------- > ---------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Fri Sep 8 11:44:48 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 08:44:48 -0700 Subject: Winco gen-set [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.157651102-951758591-968427888@topica.com> Kurt, Long shot here.. Maybe the generator control system needs 12 volts and the battery is so dead it drops well under that after you remove the jumper cables? I would unhook any control wires from the inverter to generator before I did anymore trouble shooting to prove that the inverter isn't the problem. Not that this is related but my mechanic told me the other day not to jump start newer cars as it could damage the computer although he couldn't explain why. I'm not familiar with the Winco but maybe the breaker you found to be OK is the just the DC output for the battery charger and you need to get into the controls to find a blown fuse inside? Travis Creswell Ozark Solar ---------- >From: "Kurt Nelson, SunWise" >To: Wrenches >Subject: Winco gen-set [RE-wrenches] >Date: Thu, Sep 7, 2000, 10:40 AM > >Any thoughts of what may have happened when >I took the truck battery (truck not running) off the gen-set's starter >battery? - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From microhydro at dplus.net Fri Sep 8 13:31:01 2000 From: microhydro at dplus.net (Ron Macleod) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 10:31:01 -0700 Subject: help with hydro site calcs [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.96982630-212058698-968322689@topica.com> <0.1300002502.2004006833-212058698-968334112@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.21948294-951758591-968434261@topica.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From richard.perez at homepower.com Fri Sep 8 14:15:09 2000 From: richard.perez at homepower.com (Richard Perez, Home Power magazine) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 11:15:09 -0700 Subject: 12 VDC battery charger [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.563692533-212058698-968422505@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1198498443-212058698-967691854@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1018616620-212058698-968267427@topica.com> <0.1300002502.647480628-212058698-968268001@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1674516399-951758591-968357951@topica.com> <0.1300002502.563692533-212058698-968422505@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.977119845-212058698-968436909@topica.com> Hello Todd Try this URL: http://www.maha-comm.com/ These MAHA chargers are the best I've ever used for NiCd and NiMH cells. The rapid charge and have an exercise function. They work on 120 VAC or 12 VDC. Richard >Hi Richard, > >Hope you are enjoying a return of late summer weather following the >labor day weekend. It really got the tourists outa here fast!! > >I no longer get QST mag, can you give me contact info for these >chargers. > >Thanks in advance... and for all the fine work you do for us and the >planet. > >Todd > >"Richard Perez, Home Power magazine" wrote: > > > Hello Todd > > > > Check out the MAHA chargers advertised in QST magazine. Bob-O and I > > use them and they are great! > > > > Richard ------------------------------------ Richard Pérez Home Power PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA Tele: 530-475-3179 FAX: 530-475-0836 Subscriptions: 800-707-6585 mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com Web: http://www.homepower.com - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From allan at positivenergy.com Fri Sep 8 14:19:43 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 11:19:43 -0700 Subject: Winco gen-set [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2015143716-212058698-968437183@topica.com> Re Winco: this name and number were good the last time I called Winco, 1-2 years ago: 612 357-6831, "J.R." in tech support. Maybe he can help. Allan at Positive Energy -----Original Message----- From: Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Date: Friday, September 08, 2000 9:49 AM Subject: Re: Winco gen-set [RE-wrenches] >Kurt, > >Long shot here.. Maybe the generator control system needs 12 volts and the >battery is so dead it drops well under that after you remove the jumper >cables? I would unhook any control wires from the inverter to generator >before I did anymore trouble shooting to prove that the inverter isn't the >problem. Not that this is related but my mechanic told me the other day not >to jump start newer cars as it could damage the computer although he >couldn't explain why. > >I'm not familiar with the Winco but maybe the breaker you found to be OK is >the just the DC output for the battery charger and you need to get into the >controls to find a blown fuse inside? > >Travis Creswell >Ozark Solar >---------- >>From: "Kurt Nelson, SunWise" >>To: Wrenches >>Subject: Winco gen-set [RE-wrenches] >>Date: Thu, Sep 7, 2000, 10:40 AM >> > >>Any thoughts of what may have happened when >>I took the truck battery (truck not running) off the gen-set's starter >>battery? > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Fri Sep 8 16:02:21 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 13:02:21 -0700 Subject: help with hydro site calcs [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.2063419395-212058698-968417586@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1790897209-212058698-968443341@topica.com> By jolley, Travis, you have an answer there. You ARE a hydro expert! I had never run up against that kind of rules, but I would think that your idea might satisfy them if you explain the reasoning. But caution to check first and see if they accept that usage of irrigation water. Sometimes it could be prohibited as to application of water intended for crops. I have known people doing that that state they are not telling what they use it for. And of course you can actually water crops with the water coming out of the hydro to satisfy that requirement. And a lot of these systems do great with less than a few hundred watts. 50 watts and up is very usable for some life-styles, a huge change from zero watts. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems A catalog business on a mountain 2 miles from utility lines, powered entirely by our catalog products. IF UTILITY POWER IS 1/2 MILE OR MORE FROM YOUR SITE, get our free 160 page solar-electric Planning Guide/Catalog. (Your postal address required - Our list is never given or sold). Phone(208)263-4290 Fax (208) 265-4788 in Idaho, USA ----- Original Message ----- From: Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar To: ; Sent: Friday, September 08, 2000 5:53 AM Subject: Re: help with hydro site calcs [RE-wrenches] > Steve, > > I haven't done any micro hydro but I have looked at several potential sites > so take that I really have no idea what I am talking about. Around here > most of the sites I've looked at would need major land work just to get a > few hundred watts. > > What if you started out with a few feet of 2" pipe to meet the restrictions > then stepped up to 4" for the remainder of the run to the nozzles? > > Travis Creswell > Ozark Solar > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From roy at four-winds-energy.com Fri Sep 8 16:25:14 2000 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler, Four Winds RE) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 13:25:14 -0700 Subject: DC answering machine [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1821553572-212058698-968444714@topica.com> Hi folks, I have a customer who wants a 24 VDC telephone answering machine. Does anyone know of such a beast? Or at least a decent 12 VDC unit for which I can find an alternative means of power? Over the last 4 years they've done a wonderful job of living within their system's power production and I'm not gonna tell 'em to buy a 120VAC unit and add a dreaded ghost load! Thanks, Roy Butler Four Winds RE Arkport, NY - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From allan at positivenergy.com Fri Sep 8 17:05:29 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 14:05:29 -0700 Subject: DC answering machine [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1897286034-951758591-968447129@topica.com> Roy, We haven't found one. We either suggest the voice mail service of their local phone provider, or we put in a converter. Zane is the only co I know of who makes an adjustable-output step-down DC converter, and it is pretty reliable, but they have become such a pain in the arse to deal with I gave up on their products. AEE carries their 8A version, but not the cheaper 2A model that fits in a SG box. The other conversion choice is to use a 12V DC phone with a fixed-output converter. We've had 100% success with ICT units, available through Hutton Communications (Mark Billets @303-984-9300 X101). ICT makes 2.5, 5, 10, 15, 20, and 40A units with 13.8V output. They're pretty cheap, too. Allan at Positive Energy -----Original Message----- From: Roy Butler, Four Winds RE To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Date: Friday, September 08, 2000 2:35 PM Subject: DC answering machine [RE-wrenches] >Hi folks, > I have a customer who wants a 24 VDC telephone answering machine. Does >anyone know of such a beast? Or at least a decent 12 VDC unit for which I >can find an alternative means of power? Over the last 4 years they've done >a wonderful job of living within their system's power production and I'm >not gonna tell 'em to buy a 120VAC unit and add a dreaded ghost load! >Thanks, >Roy Butler >Four Winds RE >Arkport, NY > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ipl at sover.net Fri Sep 8 17:23:11 2000 From: ipl at sover.net (David Palumbo, Independent Power & Light) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 14:23:11 -0700 Subject: Maytag Neptune [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.124048351-951758591-968448191@topica.com> Wrenches Has anyone had experience running the Neptune on an Exceltech 1100 watt, 24v? A customer would like to avoid buying a Trace SW as they anticipate no other large ac loads. They also do not consider the Staber an option as a couple of their neighbors have had bad experiences with their Stabers. Also We were recently called on to service and upgrade a system put together by a woman's husband who has since passed on. The day we were out there, it was raining and we had no way to get a look at the backside of the panels mounted tight to the roof. These panels were single crystalline and had dimensions of 38-3/16" X 17-1/2". Does anyone know what make they might be? David thinks they may be Hoxan, but has no literature to check the dimensions against. Barry Shaw Independent Power & Light - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From allan at positivenergy.com Fri Sep 8 19:54:07 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 16:54:07 -0700 Subject: Maytag Neptune [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1895339724-212058698-968457247@topica.com> Barry, Re the old array: that shape suggests a 4X9 cell arrangement. My late-80s Hoxan/Heliopower cut sheets suggest maybe a Hoxan H-4810; at 945mm X 422 mm, that's 37 3/16 by 16 5/8. If so, it's 48.6 Wpp, 16.2 Vpp, 3 App. Or maybe a really old Solec? No specs, but they did both 3 X 12 and 4 X 9. Allan at Positive Energy -----Original Message----- From: David Palumbo, Independent Power & Light To: Wrenches Date: Friday, September 08, 2000 3:44 PM Subject: Maytag Neptune [RE-wrenches] >Wrenches > >Has anyone had experience running the Neptune on an Exceltech 1100 watt, >24v? A customer would like to avoid buying a Trace SW as they anticipate no >other large ac loads. They also do not consider the Staber an option as a >couple of their neighbors have had bad experiences with their Stabers. > >Also > >We were recently called on to service and upgrade a system put together by a >woman's husband who has since passed on. The day we were out there, it was >raining and we had no way to get a look at the backside of the panels >mounted tight to the roof. These panels were single crystalline and had >dimensions of 38-3/16" X 17-1/2". Does anyone know what make they might be? > >David thinks they may be Hoxan, but has no literature to check the >dimensions against. > >Barry Shaw >Independent Power & Light > > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cpae1 at aol.com Fri Sep 8 19:57:01 2000 From: cpae1 at aol.com (Frank Fowler, Crystal Pines Alt. Energy ) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 16:57:01 -0700 Subject: DC answering machine [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.671787800-212058698-968457421@topica.com> Roy, I beleive Steve at Backwoods Solar may have the answer for you on the 12 volt answering machine. Something about converting it to 12 volts. SUNcerely, Frank Fowler Crystal Pines Alternative Energy 530-532-1972 "Living off grid with products we market and install" www.solarenergy-alt.com - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Fri Sep 8 20:17:08 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 17:17:08 -0700 Subject: DC answering machine [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.671787800-212058698-968457421@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.611467205-212058698-968458628@topica.com> We no longer convert machines to 12 volts because it is hard to find an answering machine that completely isolates the phone lines from the grounded power of the battery system. (Neither phone wire may be grounded, even several thousand ohms fouls the phone functionality). So we use the 12 volt to 12 volt isolator that removes the ground from your 12 volt battery and provides isolated 12 volt to the answer machine. Very little loss in that process, costs about $25. However it does not convert voltages, so you still need a 24 to 12 converter. Unfortunately all those I have tested, Zane and Solar Converters both, do not isolate or remove the ground. So now two devices are required in series to do that job. The solar converters EQ24/12 unit is a great though costly way to do this if you have other needs for 12 volt as well. It lets you draw 12 volts direct from half the battery while balancing the voltage of both halves very precisely. This means you get good stable noise-free battery power at 12 volts, for those items that are consumer oriented and cannot be found in 24 volts, like RABB motion sensing light control, alarm systems, cell phones, intercoms etc. So if you have enough needs,to justify the cost, that is the best way to get 12 volts from a 24 volt system, then put the $25 isolator on for the answer machine. Also a lightning protector added to the phone line before the answer machine is good here when you get your equipment as the shortest link between a phone line and a grounded battery system. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems ----- Original Message ----- From: Frank Fowler, Crystal Pines Alt. Energy To: Sent: Friday, September 08, 2000 4:57 PM Subject: Re: DC answering machine [RE-wrenches] > Roy, I beleive Steve at Backwoods Solar may have the answer for you on the 12 > volt answering machine. Something about converting it to 12 volts. > > SUNcerely, > Frank Fowler > Crystal Pines Alternative Energy > 530-532-1972 > "Living off grid with products we market and install" - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Fri Sep 8 22:08:00 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (R. Sparks Scott) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 19:08:00 -0700 Subject: DC answering machine [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.611467205-212058698-968458628@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.671787800-212058698-968457421@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.433710581-212058698-968465280@topica.com> Roy; I have used an AC powered answering machine for the last ten years, powering it from a Trace 812. The key to eliminating the phantom load is to only have the machine connected to the inverter when it is needed to answer the phone. To this end, I created a 'Homebrew' project that senses incoming ring voltage, pulls in a rely to connect the answering machine's wall cube to the inverter, which then wakes up from sleep mode. A timer circuit keeps the machine alive for 6 minutes (this can be adjusted), then disconnects the inverter power from the wall cube. The inverter goes back to sleep, the circuit waits until the phone rings again, and no unnecessary drain on the batteries. A bypass switch lets the user connect the machine to the inverter for checking messages. The beauty of this circuit is that you can use any answering machine. I even have my fax hooked up to it. Works like magic! The downside is that you have to construct it, or have one built if you don't have the skills to do it yourself, and of course, there's no UL listing on homebrew projects..... I'd be glad to share my schematics if you're interested. -S - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From roy at four-winds-energy.com Fri Sep 8 22:15:18 2000 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler, Four Winds RE) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 19:15:18 -0700 Subject: DC answering machine [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.671787800-212058698-968457421@topica.com> <0.1300002502.433710581-212058698-968465280@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1817331989-212058698-968465718@topica.com> Hey everybody, Thanks for all the great info...I've gotta take time to digest it all and figure out a plan here. *** Ian...e-mail me the price on that 12 volt unit...I'm definitely interested. *** Mr Sparky....please do share those schematics! I'm a bit rusty but have built my own circuits since the 7th grade...about time I got back into it! Thanks everybody! Roy Butler Four Winds RE Arkport, NY - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ian.woofenden at homepower.com Fri Sep 8 22:26:25 2000 From: ian.woofenden at homepower.com (Ian Woofenden, Home Power) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 19:26:25 -0700 Subject: DC answering machine [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.433710581-212058698-968465280@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.671787800-212058698-968457421@topica.com> <0.1300002502.433710581-212058698-968465280@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1233878831-951758591-968466385@topica.com> Sparks, > I have used an AC powered answering machine for the last ten years, >powering it from a Trace 812. The key to eliminating the phantom load is to >only have the machine connected to the inverter when it is needed to answer >the phone. To this end, I created a 'Homebrew' project that senses incoming >ring voltage, pulls in a rely to connect the answering machine's wall cube Steve Willey builds and sells a similar device, and it's been working well here for over a year now for my fax machine. Someone ought to write a Things that Work! about it... Your project sounds like a good Home Brew for HP too. I'm still trying to avoid the first "always on" AC load here, so I sympathize with Roy's customer and others. Ian -- Ian Woofenden , Fax: 360-293-7034 Associate Editor, Home Power magazine, The Hands-On Journal Of Home-Made Power Editors are Professional Idiots - We misunderstand text so our readers won't. HP subscriptions: $22.50 per year, PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA 800-707-6585 (US), 541-512-0220, or download current issue at - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ian.woofenden at homepower.com Fri Sep 8 23:26:30 2000 From: ian.woofenden at homepower.com (Ian Woofenden, Home Power) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 20:26:30 -0700 Subject: DC answering machine [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1817331989-212058698-968465718@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.671787800-212058698-968457421@topica.com> <0.1300002502.433710581-212058698-968465280@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1817331989-212058698-968465718@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1725002837-212058698-968469990@topica.com> Hi Roy, >Ian...e-mail me the price on that 12 volt unit...I'm definitely interested Oh, I'd take $30 ppd. for the trouble of packing it up and shipping it. I just plugged it in and played both incoming and outgoing messages. Louis (son #1) says you should check out what's for sale at Radio Shack. Last time I looked, a lot of it was 12 volt DC after the wall cube. Best, Ian -- Ian Woofenden , Fax: 360-293-7034 Associate Editor, Home Power magazine, The Hands-On Journal Of Home-Made Power Editors are Professional Idiots - We misunderstand text so our readers won't. HP subscriptions: $22.50 per year, PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA 800-707-6585 (US), 541-512-0220, or download current issue at - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From microhydro at dplus.net Fri Sep 8 23:37:28 2000 From: microhydro at dplus.net (Ron Macleod) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 20:37:28 -0700 Subject: help with hydro site calcs [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.2063419395-212058698-968417586@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1790897209-212058698-968443341@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.30089706-212058698-968470648@topica.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From joe.schwartz at homepower.com Sat Sep 9 00:39:41 2000 From: joe.schwartz at homepower.com (Joe Schwartz, Home Power) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 21:39:41 -0700 Subject: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.529639118-212058698-968351059@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.31689943-212058698-968275022@topica.com> <0.1300002502.552574081-212058698-968283446@topica.com> <0.1300002502.529639118-212058698-968351059@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.501179755-212058698-968474381@topica.com> Bob, > Staber comment: Yes they are designed for owner repair, but >I found that I was taking it apart and working on it much more than >I ever wanted >to. Granted this was 3-4 years ago and it could be a better product >now, but I >have a long memory when it comes to less than pleasant experiences. I second the less than pleasant comment regarding the Staber. Awhile back I replaced a broken lid on a one (it may have even been the same machine you worked on). First off, who ever heard of a washing machine with a plastic lid? A heavy basket of wet laundry dropped there could be enough to crack it. To replace the lid the entire wiring harness needed to be removed as all the wires passed through a hole in the lid's plastic frame. Duh. The fix also involved disconnecting hoses from cheesy plastic fittings and reefing on the main circuit board to remove the final connections of the wire harness. The board flexed so seriously I couldn't believe it didn't break. I saw plenty of what I consider to be weak design points in there. Maybe I was just having a bad day, but I cussed more that afternoon than I can remember. Thanks in part to the Staber, I've become an even bigger fan of mainstream appliances. Both washers and reefer/freezers are getting darn close and even surpassing the efficiency levels of the old RE industry standbys. Mainstream appliances often cost way less. The savings can buy more PV's to make up for lower efficiencies. These appliances typically have far and away nicer controls and features. They can usually be delivered and set up right where you point your finger, and they can be SERVICED LOCALLY. Amen. Take it easy, Joe Schwartz >Regards, >Bob Maynard >Energy Outfitters >800-GO-SOLAR > >"Ian Woofenden, Home Power" wrote: > > > Hi Bob, > > > > At 2:17 PM -0700 9/6/00, Bob Ellison, Alternative Energy Systems wrote: > > >When they first came out the local store spent a lot of time with me on a > > >learning curve, MAYTAG told them that the power usage was 285 >WH. Maybe they > > >have changed things sense then? They even told me that it was not designed > > >to be super efficient. > > > > I don't know where that came from. Bob Maynard recommend the Neptune > > to me as one of the most efficient models out there, and I've checked > > ours multiple times with the Brand meter. > > > > >Any idea how it does on water use? > > > > No. Does Brand Electronics make a water use meter? ;-) > > Is there a simple and cheap water use meter out there. It would be > > interesting to play with. > > > > >Heard a rumor you were in my back yard recently any truth to it?? > > > > > >Bob > > > > We landed back on the island today after a 6 week 8K mile trip from > > here to Maine, with various stops along the way, including SolWest, > > three days at Mick Sagrillo's, a rendezvous with the SEI wind > > workshop in Colorado, and tracking down a wind homebrewer on the > > coast of Maine (see HP79). Not sure how close we got to you, since we > > went through NYC (big mistake) on the way to Maine, and skirted > > around it on 84 on the way to Philly on the way back. > > > > It would have been fun to make lots of RE stops, but I had the whole > > family, and their attention span for windmills is shorter than mine. > > We did see a lot of wind generators and PVs, and the kids sang out > > when they saw them. Maybe I should go solo with the bus for the RE > > Wrenches Tour... > > > > (Where'd you hear that rumor?) > > > > Best, > > > > Ian > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > >From: Ian Woofenden, Home Power [mailto:ian.woofenden at homepower.com] > > >Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 3:10 PM > > >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > > >Subject: RE: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] > > > > > > > > >Hey Bob, > > > > > >I've measured our Neptune at 105 WH (AC, post inverter) per load with > > >a Brand meter, which is better than the Staber. > > > > > >Perhaps you are referring to stats on a model with a built-in water > > >heater? One salesman mentioned that the new model would have this > > >(questionable) feature. > > > > > >We are really pleased with this machine. > > > > > >Ian > > > > > >At 8:17 PM -0700 8/30/00, Bob Ellison, Alternative Energy Systems wrote: > > >>The last info that I had on the Neptune is that it is NOT an efficient > > >>washer. It draws considerably more than the Staber and a HUGE amount of > > >>water, I have been told that it constantly replaces water to cut down on > > >>sudsing..... So it uses lots of water and pump run time. > > >-- > > >Ian Woofenden , Fax: 360-293-7034 > > >Associate Editor, Home Power magazine, The Hands-On Journal Of Home-Made > > >Power > > >Editors are Professional Idiots - We misunderstand text so our readers > > >won't. > > > > > >HP subscriptions: $22.50 per year, PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA > > >800-707-6585 (US), 541-512-0220, or download current issue at > > > > > > > > >- - - - - - - > > >To send a message: > > > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > > > > >The archive of previous messages: > > > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > > > > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > > > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > > > > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > > > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > > www.homepower.com > > > > > >For info contact list moderator by email: > > > michael.welch at homepower.com > > >___________________________________________________________ > > >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > > >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > > > > >- - - - - - - > > >To send a message: > > > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > > > > >The archive of previous messages: > > > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > > > > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > > > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > > > > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > > > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > > www.homepower.com > > > > > >For info contact list moderator by email: > > > michael.welch at homepower.com > > >___________________________________________________________ > > >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > > >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > > > -- > > Ian Woofenden , Fax: 360-293-7034 > > Associate Editor, Home Power magazine, The Hands-On Journal Of >Home-Made Power > > Editors are Professional Idiots - We misunderstand text so our >readers won't. > > > > HP subscriptions: $22.50 per year, PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA > > 800-707-6585 (US), 541-512-0220, or download current issue at > > > > > > - - - - - - - > > To send a message: > > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > > > The archive of previous messages: > > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > www.homepower.com > > > > For info contact list moderator by email: > > michael.welch at homepower.com > > ___________________________________________________________ > > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics ------------- Joe Schwartz Home Power Magazine PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA email:joe.schwartz at homepower.com Web: http://www.homepower.com - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunpwr at jps.net Sat Sep 9 00:54:39 2000 From: sunpwr at jps.net (Chuck Heath, SunPower) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 21:54:39 -0700 Subject: help with hydro site calcs [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2119426795-212058698-968475279@topica.com> Steve Willey wrote on Sept. 7, in reply to Travis Creswell's inquiry... >>I doubt they would understand >>using a larger than allowed pipe with the explanation that the nozzle >>restricts flow to 80 gpm and the 4 inch pipe is just to avoid friction. Have you considered a Jack Rabbit system, which requires no pipe and no dams but resembles a tiny torpedo? The "Aquair" does require a land-mounted frame to submerge/raise with changing creek levels and as protection during flash floods. The literature claims up to 2.4 kW/day from any fast running stream (about 9 mph) with only 13 in. of clear water. A stream speed of 6 mph produces about 1.5 kWH/day. I have no experience with them, but am intrigued with the design. Jack Csenge is President. His telephones are 203-961-8133 (v) and 203-358-9250 (f). Retail of the basic unit in 1996 was $1095 w/about a 20% dealer discount. Check for current pricing. Anyone else have hands-on experience with this unit? Chuck Heath "Plugging into Sunshine since 1989" - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From freepower at freepower.co.nz Sat Sep 9 07:09:32 2000 From: freepower at freepower.co.nz (Carl Emerson) Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 04:09:32 -0700 Subject: DC answering machine [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.671787800-212058698-968457421@topica.com> <0.1300002502.433710581-212058698-968465280@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1817331989-212058698-968465718@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1725002837-212058698-968469990@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1899800142-212058698-968497772@topica.com> Hi There !! Here in NZ I have solved the same phantom load problem with fax and answering machines in a similar way. I designed a simple acoustic relay that worked from the sound of the bells. It had an adjustable timer also and you just 'piggy-back' plugged the unit and the fax together which eliminated the need for any dedicated wiring. My unit will only work if the audible sound of the ring is available from a phone in parallel with the fax, or a fax that will still ring without AC power. -- Regards, Carl Emerson Manager FREEPOWER LTD. "Harnessing Natural Energy" AUCKLAND 356 East Coast Road, Mairangi Bay, P.O. Box 68-247, AUCKLAND, New Zealand. Voice +64 9 478-0404 Mobile 021-633999 Cellfax 021-2919399 Fax +64 9 478-0405 Email emerson at freepower.co.nz - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ellison at gisco.net Sat Sep 9 10:15:54 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison, Alternative Energy Systems) Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 07:15:54 -0700 Subject: DC answering machine [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1821553572-212058698-968444714@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.438550994-212058698-968508954@topica.com> Just call the phone company and get their call messaging service, it is cheap, $5 or 6. A month. I got tired of replacing answering machines, they just don't last long. Even at $100.00 each and that was when I was on grid. Bob -----Original Message----- From: Roy Butler, Four Winds RE [mailto:roy at four-winds-energy.com] Sent: Friday, September 08, 2000 4:25 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: DC answering machine [RE-wrenches] Hi folks, I have a customer who wants a 24 VDC telephone answering machine. Does anyone know of such a beast? Or at least a decent 12 VDC unit for which I can find an alternative means of power? Over the last 4 years they've done a wonderful job of living within their system's power production and I'm not gonna tell 'em to buy a 120VAC unit and add a dreaded ghost load! Thanks, Roy Butler Four Winds RE Arkport, NY - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ellison at gisco.net Sat Sep 9 10:24:53 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison, Alternative Energy Systems) Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 07:24:53 -0700 Subject: help with hydro site calcs [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.21948294-951758591-968434261@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2144973747-212058698-968509493@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 5060 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ozsolar at ipa.net Sat Sep 9 10:37:11 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 07:37:11 -0700 Subject: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1062841523-951758591-968510231@topica.com> Joe, That is how I feel about it. Another related issue.. I'm not trying to get on my soap box but this something that nags me sometimes about myself and other probably have some similar feelings. By selling appliances and other things not directly solar related I feel that our customers could be getting short changed. They look to us to be "experts" on everything. Can we really be -Battery experts -Solar Panel Experts -Inverter Experts -Charge Controller Experts -Solar Water Pumping Experts -Electricians -System Designers and Appliance Experts all at the same time? For example what's the best battery for given application? There would be almost as many opinions among us as there was batteries. On top of that we are all competing with Internet Mega Marts who will tell a customers anything just to get a sale. Maybe someday we'll have a solar industry that has enough business that we (installing dealers) can have employees who specialize in each part of the install. Travis Creswell Ozark Solar ---------- >From: "Joe Schwartz, Home Power" >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Subject: Re: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] >Date: Fri, Sep 8, 2000, 11:39 PM > >Mainstream appliances often cost way less. The >savings can buy more PV's to make up for lower efficiencies. These >appliances typically have far and away nicer controls and features. >They can usually be delivered and set up right where you point your >finger, and they can be SERVICED LOCALLY. Amen. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From i2p at aol.com Sat Sep 9 11:13:12 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (Don Loweburg, Offline) Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 08:13:12 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1992234837-212058698-968512392@topica.com> In a message dated 09/05/2000 7:26:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time, kurtj12 at aol.com writes: << don i like your proposal. will there be a column that tells the territory each business services in and out of their home state? kurt johnson the solar guys >> Kurt, I think that if you are even close to a location, the customer will call and that can be determined at the initial contact. I want to keep this list as simple as possible. Don - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From i2p at aol.com Sat Sep 9 11:13:15 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (Don Loweburg, Offline) Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 08:13:15 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1874744547-212058698-968512395@topica.com> In a message dated 09/05/2000 3:54:10 PM Pacific Daylight Time, richard.perez at homepower.com writes: << Hello Don and IPPers Good idea! Come up with the ad concept and Ben will set it up. Home Power will run the ad for free. Richard >> Thanks Richard - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From i2p at aol.com Sat Sep 9 11:13:33 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (Don Loweburg, Offline) Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 08:13:33 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.312759231-212058698-968512413@topica.com> In a message dated 09/07/2000 9:39:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time, solarjon at netshel.net writes: << Your ideas are excellent. give them all the information and let them decide. Be sure to list whether the installers will install equipment purchased elsewhere. Jon HIll >> How about this. I include on the web section a brief discussion of why its best to have a bundled job and mention that not all dealer installers will do an install only. I can discuss some reason why etc. This way I don't close any doors but do alert the customer to the issues. I think philosophically we must regard this as an opportunity to gain a customer (inspite of their past sins) , but they must pay. Don - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From i2p at aol.com Sat Sep 9 11:13:34 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (Don Loweburg, Offline) Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 08:13:34 -0700 Subject: installer's list [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1953905881-212058698-968512414@topica.com> In a message dated 09/06/2000 2:58:10 PM Pacific Daylight Time, vtsolar1 at together.net writes: << 1) I think that having a installer list is a great idea, but I'd like to call it a dealer / installer list. It is safe to assume that most of us would prefer not to install equipment we didn't sell to the customer (and perhaps wouldn't recommend), especially if purchased from some big box solar mart. The HP add / list should encourage working with (from start to finish) and buying from the wrench who will be doing the install. I agree 2) The HP add may not be able to accommodate all who want to be listed, due to space limitations. What then? We can't do that anyway. You are right not enough room. But we will plug the "turnkey install" Keep in mind that installing someone elses equipment is a public service, better that someone quailfied do it than a botched job. We should charge professional rates. A bundled install will usually be less than a labor only since there is no profit on the equipment. 3) Don, please tell me how to join IPP again. Thanks. >> Send a check for $50 to: IPP PO Box 231 North Fork, CA 93643 Email me your business specifics, contact stuff and a brief description of background and experience (years in biz) etc Welcome aboard. Don Loweburg - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From i2p at aol.com Sat Sep 9 11:13:34 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (Don Loweburg, Offline) Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 08:13:34 -0700 Subject: installer's list [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1233277889-212058698-968512414@topica.com> In a message dated 09/06/2000 3:20:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time, michael.welch at homepower.com writes: << Might I suggest the term "installing dealers" since it is regularly used in the industry. Not sure who to credit, but I first heard it from Richard Perez. That works >2) The HP add may not be able to accommodate all who want to be listed, due to space limitations. What then? Ad size is the question here if the goal really is to list them all, and my guess is that Richard will make it work. That said, I am not convinced it is a good idea to list them all in the ad. It might be best to describe the resource and how to get it -- 1) via the i2p.org web site, 2) by an autoresponse mail message that sends the list within an email message when an interested party sends a message to, for example RE_Installing_Dealers at i2p.org, and 3) via snail mail at the IPP postal address. I vote for something akin to this The add should let them know how to get the resource. An added benifit is they may learn a bit about IPP and some of the issues we think are important while at the site. >> Don - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From i2p at aol.com Sat Sep 9 11:13:35 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (Don Loweburg, Offline) Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 08:13:35 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.793854781-212058698-968512415@topica.com> In a message dated 09/05/2000 10:30:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time, wstahle at slonet.org writes: << I dread too limited a form that would squeeze me into a space that implies I am at an apprentice level. Would I be able to include my two weeks at SEI in 1995 for instance? Conversely, there is a lot of operational quirks I have yet to see in systems, which is the beauty of this list. >> I do think general electrical experience does count, especially with RE specific training like SEI. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From roy at four-winds-energy.com Sat Sep 9 11:22:39 2000 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler, Four Winds RE) Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 08:22:39 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.312759231-212058698-968512413@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.187147744-212058698-968512959@topica.com> Hi Don, I especially like this approach. Like most of us, I dislike installing someone else's equipment. The system is rarely designed well, I did not make any $$ from the equipment sale and have to charge the customer prevailing rates instead of being able to offer a discount. Sooo....with that said...I have acquired several regular and loyal customers who first purchased equipment the "wrong" way. In all cases, I was able to demonstrate the "added value" of having a professional do the work. Good work Don...go for it! Roy Butler Four Winds RE Arkport, NY - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Sat Sep 9 11:59:24 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 08:59:24 -0700 Subject: installer's list [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.186007954-951758591-968515164@topica.com> Don, You are doing an excellent job with setting this up but there are so many points to it I have become lost trying to pay attention to all of them. This is bad and I think others might be the same as I. Could I suggest that you and several others (our first Wrench Committee) set up a Conference Call and hammer out a format for the other Wrenches approve. Not that it would need approved if we all agreed on the committee members. It might go faster and actually get done before we all loose interest. I would trust whatever the Committee would came up with. Its also a good chance for us to all get mad each at other so if we don't like my idea lets forget it and I'll pay better attention. Travis Creswell Ozark Solar ---------- >From: "Don Loweburg, Offline" >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Subject: Re: installer's list [RE-wrenches] >Date: Sat, Sep 9, 2000, 10:13 AM > >In a message dated 09/06/2000 2:58:10 PM Pacific Daylight Time, >vtsolar1 at together.net writes: > ><< > 1) I think that having a installer list is a great idea, but I'd like to >call it > a dealer / installer list. It is safe to assume that most of us would prefer >not > to install equipment we didn't sell to the customer (and perhaps wouldn't > recommend), especially if purchased from some big box solar mart. The HP add >/ > list should encourage working with (from start to finish) and buying from the > wrench who will be doing the install. > I agree > 2) The HP add may not be able to accommodate all who want to be listed, due >to > space limitations. What then? > We can't do that anyway. You are right not enough room. But we will plug the >"turnkey install" Keep in mind that installing someone elses equipment is a >public service, better that someone quailfied do it than a botched job. We >should charge professional rates. A bundled install will usually be less than >a labor only since there is no profit on the equipment. > 3) Don, please tell me how to join IPP again. Thanks. > >> >Send a check for $50 to: >IPP >PO Box 231 >North Fork, CA 93643 > >Email me your business specifics, contact stuff and a brief description of >background and experience (years in biz) etc > >Welcome aboard. > >Don Loweburg > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Sat Sep 9 12:30:42 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 09:30:42 -0700 Subject: installer's list [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.804624218-951758591-968517042@topica.com> Don, Whoops, looks like I need to pay a little better attention. Everyone please ignore my last message. Feel free to chastise me as well. Steve you can take back my Honorary Title of "Hydro Expert" It looks like we have finalized this thing and are going forward with it. My bad. I plan on joining IPP and I'll get the check off ASAP. Do we need to be a member of IPP to be on the installers list you are creating? I think we should but it hasn't been stated that I can find. Thanks Travis Creswell Ozark Solar ---------- >From: "Don Loweburg, Offline" >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Subject: Re: installer's list [RE-wrenches] >Date: Sat, Sep 9, 2000, 10:13 AM > >Email me your business specifics, contact stuff and a brief description of >background and experience (years in biz) etc > >Welcome aboard. > >Don Loweburg - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From allan at positivenergy.com Sat Sep 9 13:46:25 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 10:46:25 -0700 Subject: DC answering machine [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.145040709-212058698-968521585@topica.com> All, Following up to my posting on the 24-12 converter: Steve is right about problems relating to ground isolation. My answer is incomplete. We have more work with cell phones around here, where the goal is to supply 12 volts to run a car-charger for an in-home cell phone. No isolation problems in this case. Except for one small area, everyone in northern NM that has a land line also can get voice mail service. Allan at +E -----Original Message----- From: Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Date: Friday, September 08, 2000 6:22 PM Subject: Re: DC answering machine [RE-wrenches] >We no longer convert machines to 12 volts because it is hard to find an >answering machine that completely isolates the phone lines from the grounded >power of the battery system. (Neither phone wire may be grounded, even >several thousand ohms fouls the phone functionality). So we use the 12 volt >to 12 volt isolator that removes the ground from your 12 volt battery and >provides isolated 12 volt to the answer machine. Very little loss in that >process, costs about $25. However it does not convert voltages, so you >still need a 24 to 12 converter. Unfortunately all those I have tested, >Zane and Solar Converters both, do not isolate or remove the ground. So now >two devices are required in series to do that job. > >The solar converters EQ24/12 unit is a great though costly way to do this if >you have other needs for 12 volt as well. It lets you draw 12 volts direct >from half the battery while balancing the voltage of both halves very >precisely. This means you get good stable noise-free battery power at 12 >volts, for those items that are consumer oriented and cannot be found in 24 >volts, like RABB motion sensing light control, alarm systems, cell phones, >intercoms etc. So if you have enough needs,to justify the cost, that is the >best way to get 12 volts from a 24 volt system, then put the $25 isolator on >for the answer machine. Also a lightning protector added to the phone line >before the answer machine is good here when you get your equipment as the >shortest link between a phone line and a grounded battery system. > >Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com >Backwoods Solar Electric Systems >----- Original Message ----- >From: Frank Fowler, Crystal Pines Alt. Energy >To: >Sent: Friday, September 08, 2000 4:57 PM >Subject: Re: DC answering machine [RE-wrenches] > > >> Roy, I beleive Steve at Backwoods Solar may have the answer for you on the >12 >> volt answering machine. Something about converting it to 12 volts. >> >> SUNcerely, >> Frank Fowler >> Crystal Pines Alternative Energy >> 530-532-1972 >> "Living off grid with products we market and install" > > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From i2p at aol.com Sat Sep 9 23:47:56 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (Don Loweburg, Offline) Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 20:47:56 -0700 Subject: installer's list [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.131579753-212058698-968557676@topica.com> In a message dated 09/09/2000 9:31:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ozsolar at ipa.net writes: << I plan on joining IPP and I'll get the check off ASAP. Do we need to be a member of IPP to be on the installers list you are creating? I think we should but it hasn't been stated that I can find. Thanks Travis Creswell Ozark Solar >> Thanks Travis, Of course I hope so and will be gently encouraging IPP membership. Many of the Wrenches are IPP members already. IPP members will have access to the IPP logo also. My thinking at this point is that IPP membership is not required since not all wrenches on the list are members. I'm especially open to thoughts by IPP members and non member wrenchs on this. We will have additional costs associated with the new web site, so additional financial input will be needed. Don - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From i2p at aol.com Sat Sep 9 23:58:46 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (Don Loweburg, Offline) Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 20:58:46 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1640062685-951758591-968558326@topica.com> In a message dated 09/09/2000 8:23:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time, roy at four-winds-energy.com writes: << Hi Don, I especially like this approach. Like most of us, I dislike installing someone else's equipment. The system is rarely designed well, I did not make any $$ from the equipment sale and have to charge the customer prevailing rates instead of being able to offer a discount. Sooo....with that said...I have acquired several regular and loyal customers who first purchased equipment the "wrong" way. In all cases, I was able to demonstrate the "added value" of having a professional do the work. Good work Don...go for it! Roy Butler Four Winds RE Arkport, NY >> Thanks for the confidence. I'll put some add copy together along with a Header Statement to appear with the list . I'll put this out to wrenches for feedback. Don - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Sun Sep 10 21:41:10 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 18:41:10 -0700 Subject: DC answering machine [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.671787800-212058698-968457421@topica.com> <0.1300002502.433710581-212058698-968465280@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1949316666-212058698-968636470@topica.com> Your description of using a timer to power up an answer machine on inverter (when the phone rings it starts AC and holds power on for an adjustable length of time and then off again) woke me right up. Actually, I designed and make such a product that we market for FAX machines only, and which has a manual override ON switch to allow sending faxes. It includes external plug-in lamp loads if needed to start and hold inverter on. I'm not trying to advertise here, what woke me up was your application of the idea to a message machine. I only marketed this as a fax timer because I had found, perhaps wrongly, that it would not work with answer machines, because the ones I tried would lose their message count and sometimes rewind the tape and overwrite messages when powered up the next time. But after reading your message, I am thinking I tested it only with our old Code-a-Phone units in the office here that have no back-up battery. Apparently at least message machines will work better than that? Are there any particular types of answer machine you find are required for that method to work? Do they all have battery back-up now, or are you using all tapeless type message machines? Great idea if it works without data loss. But I am not sure a product made close to UL standards would be a reasonable price. We can't get retail below $115 with the listed outdoor 4-plex box its built in, and heavy 3 wire cord, SSAC timer module and paid asembly. Not sure that price would make a good product for answer machines, whereas there isn't much choice when a person wants to run a fax and save power. (I am sure homebrew can be done for lower cost). Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems ----- Original Message ----- From: R. Sparks Scott To: Sent: Friday, September 08, 2000 7:08 PM Subject: Re: DC answering machine [RE-wrenches]> > I have used an AC powered answering machine for the last ten years, > powering it from a Trace 812. The key to eliminating the phantom load is to > only have the machine connected to the inverter when it is needed to answer > the phone. To this end, I created a 'Homebrew' project that senses incoming > ring voltage, pulls in a rely to connect the answering machine's wall cube > to the inverter, which then wakes up from sleep mode. A timer circuit keeps > the machine alive for 6 minutes (this can be adjusted), then disconnects > the inverter power from the wall cube. The inverter goes back to sleep, the > circuit waits until the phone rings again, and no unnecessary drain on the > batteries. A bypass switch lets the user connect the machine to the > inverter for checking messages. > The beauty of this circuit is that you can use any answering machine. I > even have my fax hooked up to it. Works like magic! The downside is that > you have to construct it, or have one built if you don't have the skills to > do it yourself, and of course, there's no UL listing on homebrew projects..... > I'd be glad to share my schematics if you're interested. > -S - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Sun Sep 10 21:41:11 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 18:41:11 -0700 Subject: help with hydro site calcs [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.2063419395-212058698-968417586@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1790897209-212058698-968443341@topica.com> <0.1300002502.30089706-212058698-968470648@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.139967085-212058698-968636471@topica.com> No, I think a standpipe will work. The only way he can draw air in is if the intake screen is plugged, which will happen with any standpipe, or if he tries to allow more flow than the 2 inch legal restriction pipe will allow. The purpose of the 2" pipe here is to not allow drawing more than legal flow of water, so air in the line is a signal that you need to reduce the nozzle size, or clean the screen at intake. That is true in any system whether uniform pipe size or not. Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Macleod To: Sent: Friday, September 08, 2000 8:37 PM Subject: Re: help with hydro site calcs [RE-wrenches] > You tell me - normal practice on low head is to use a standpipe that is open to atmosphere near the top of the penstock and below the intake - this eliminates the possibility of pulling a vacuum in the penstock if the intake is closed off either by a valve or major trash blockage. Maybe you don't need this with small pvc lines on high head - perhaps the penstock will withstand the possible 14 or so pounds per square inch external - I truly don't know - but I would never build a system without a standpipe. I've actually seen a 6' diameter riveted steel penstock that collapsed - it was only on 32 ft of head. > So here is the rub - If you use a standpipe - the nozzel size on the turbine becomes critical and hard to calculate. No matter how short the 2" diameter section of pipe there will be some friction (head loss) this friction will increase with velocity - say as you use a larger nozzel and increase discharge at the bottom of the penstock. You may risk sucking air in through the standpipe if your nozzel size is too large or you add a second nozzel when you have the water. > Another way to go is to use a large vaccine relief valve in place of the standpipe - most have a spring you can change out to adjust the point at which the valve opens to relieve vacuum. This could work and solve your problem - but in cold climates the can freeze up and put your penstock at risk. > So Steve - what do you think? Does he need a standpipe? I have never worked with PVC this small. > Best Ron > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Sun Sep 10 23:33:03 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (R. Sparks Scott) Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 20:33:03 -0700 Subject: DC answering machine [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1949316666-212058698-968636470@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.671787800-212058698-968457421@topica.com> <0.1300002502.433710581-212058698-968465280@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1810345645-951758591-968643183@topica.com> Hi Steve; Yes, it's particularly important to pick an answering machine that can keep track of where it is in the incoming messages while powered down. I've been using my widget on two models of Panasonic Easa-Phone devices, an ancient KX-T1515, and a slightly less venerable KX-T1624. I don't know how these machines know how many messages are waiting, but I have found them to be reliable. They don't contain any backup power source either. Obviously, if shopping for a new machine, the purchase should be contingent on the unit being able to keep up between power down cycles. Mass manufacturing is an amazing thing! It would be hard to present a UL approvable timer box for cheap, in spite of the fact that mine uses only a 555 timer, a couple of inexpensive relays, and an aluminum project case. If there was consumer demand, they could probably be produced by the train car load for next to nothing. I dug out my schematics and will redraw something to post for the home brewers on the list soon. -S - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunwise at win.bright.net Mon Sep 11 10:37:30 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (Kurt Nelson, SunWise) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 07:37:30 -0700 Subject: DC answering machine [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.671787800-212058698-968457421@topica.com> <0.1300002502.433710581-212058698-968465280@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1810345645-951758591-968643183@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.268793293-951758591-968683050@topica.com> R. Sparks Scott wrote: > > Yes, it's particularly important to pick an answering machine that can > keep track of where it is in the incoming messages while powered down. I've > been using my widget on two models of Panasonic Easa-Phone devices. -S Looking forward to seeing Sharkey's schematic. I've tried to use one of the (previously mentioned) Phone Switches that are designed to turn on a fax or other device when the phone rings. Problem I had with it is that it becomes a phantom load on the inverter. I rigged up a radio shack phone/flasher (a device that flashes a lamp when the phone rings and is not a P-load) and a couple relays to "wake-up" the circuitry on the fax switch, but then was still stuck with the fact that most answering machines, even though they may be twelve volt on the wall transformer input, do not work battery direct, do to the previously mentioned grounding incompatability (cordless phones seem to work better for some reason). The DC/DC isolating power supply from the old AEE folks dropped the voltage amd provides isolated 9 volt current to 9 volt machines, but mine didn't work well and caused problems with radio/television reception. I highly recommend voice mail provided by the phone company. My telephone company did not have the service available when I inquired but said it may become available at a later date. I spoke with a higher-up (at CTC) and explanined that many of my clients would sign up for such a service if available and they brought it on-line shortly thereafter. Four bucks a month and I get my messages even when I'm on the phone/computer. -- Kurt Nelson > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Mon Sep 11 11:42:09 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 08:42:09 -0700 Subject: DC answering machine [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1327757127-212058698-968686929@topica.com> Look for private companies that can do the same thing if the local company doesn't offer voice mail. We use a company that has a voice mail system that our phone is forwarded to after it rings 3 times. You really can't tell the voice mail system isn't in our office. Their system automatically pages us when their is a message. Travis Creswell ---------- >From: "Kurt Nelson, SunWise" >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Subject: Re: DC answering machine [RE-wrenches] >Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000, 9:37 AM > >My telephone company did not have the service >available when I inquired but said it may become available at a later >date. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From jay at asis.com Mon Sep 11 12:35:23 2000 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 09:35:23 -0700 Subject: Bergey 1500 Noise levels [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1278964949-212058698-967858096@topica.com> <0.1300002502.616777588-212058698-968108405@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1349413887-212058698-968140165@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1501441370-212058698-968140833@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.981158638-212058698-968690123@topica.com> Hi Carl, I think noise is the least of your concerns. They have the reputation as being the best and most reliable which for a wind machine I think is the only thing. Jay Peltz Carl Emerson wrote: > I am about to order a Bergy 1500 and would like comment on the comparative noise > from the machine. > > I understand that it is difficult to quantify as the matter is relatively > subjective and site specific. > > How does it stack up compared to other machines of a similar size ?? > > I doubt if there is a 1500 in New Zealand so I have little to go on. > > I am particularly interested in the noise during re-entry after yawing. > -- > Regards, > > Carl Emerson > Manager > FREEPOWER LTD. "Harnessing Natural Energy" > > AUCKLAND > 356 East Coast Road, Mairangi Bay, P.O. Box 68-247, AUCKLAND, New > Zealand. > Voice +64 9 478-0404 Mobile 021-633999 Cellfax 021-2919399 > Fax +64 9 478-0405 Email emerson at freepower.co.nz > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From jay at asis.com Mon Sep 11 12:35:28 2000 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 09:35:28 -0700 Subject: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1497598435-951758591-968168472@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.638448782-212058698-968690128@topica.com> Hi Holt, Thanks for the heads up. I would of course check with each unit, but the ones that I have worked on have listed that the only change is the jet/orifice. Yes you are right that there is a difference in pressure etc. But do you have any idea of how these other companies do the converson without changing anything but the orifice? Thanks Jay Peltz Holt Kelly wrote: > Hello Jay, > I was specifically talking about Millivolt control valves, and the valve is > not replaced, but a conversion of the regulator in the valve is > necessary(changes the pressure). Not sure that many gas dryers use these > valves but anything with a thermostat/remote switch usually does. Also the > electronic ignition valves require switching the regulator. > There is a big difference in the pressure. LP requires 11 water column > inches while NG requires only 4.5 WCI. I has to do with efficiency in the > way LP(heavier than air) needs more pressure to burn clean. If the > conversion of the appliance is not correct it will self destruct($$$$). > Please be careful. > > -----Original Message----- > From: jay peltz [mailto:jay at asis.com] > Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 7:27 PM > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Subject: Re: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] > > Hi All, > > >From my experierence this isn't true. To convert all that I have done, > either a > burner orifice or an burner and pilot orifice is needed. There is no need > to > replace the control valves on the units that I have either worked on or > talked > to people about. The gas pressure being pretty much the same, and there is > no > problem with the gas valve working either propane or natural gas. > > Hope this helps. > > jay peltz > > Holt Kelly wrote: > > > Greetings, > > Please Note that when converting LP to NG or vice versa that not only is > the > > main burner orifice changed, the regulator on the valve and the pilot > > orifice must be changed (millivolt control valves). These components > should > > be in the conversion kit. One final note: some mfg's in the fireplace > (gas) > > industry will not sell you a conversion kit - you have to send the burner > to > > them($$$$$$)so be sure that a conversion kit is available from the mfg. of > > the appliance you are buying. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: allan [mailto:allan at positivenergy.com] > > Sent: Monday, August 28, 2000 7:50 PM > > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > > Subject: Re: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] > > > > Travis, > > ACEEE (202 429-8873; aceee.org) publishes a book called "Consumer Guide to > > Home Energy Savings" that lists appliance federal efficiency ratings, > > including washers. Nobody has rated dryers. > > I tell customers to get a Staber washer and any gas dryer (if they > won't > > settle for a solar dryer--i.e. a clothesline). The Staber does the job > very > > efficiently and is the only modern efficient unit that is still warranted > if > > the mfgr. finds out it's running on inverter power. Really! Plus the > > Staber is set up for off-grid folks to service themselves, rather than > being > > a "consumer unit of the appliance repair industry". > > All the dryers I've seen are convertible from LP to NG; it's an > orifice > > change, available as a kit from the dealer. Dryer energy use seems more > > clothesly tied to how much water the washer removes on spin cycle than > > anything connected to the dryer. Some gas dryers have glow bars, but > unlike > > gas stoves, thet cycle on and off to light the burner. > > > > Allan at Positive Energy > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar > > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > > Date: Monday, August 28, 2000 11:24 AM > > Subject: Re: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] > > > > >Thanks, Travis, for the watt hour figures on washers and Neptune. A table > > of > > >these contributed by various experiences of wrenches could be a valuable > > >reference. > > > > > >Until more than one inch foam insulation is used on refrigerators, I > would > > >say manufacturers have NOT gone as far as they can. Those of you selling > or > > >using Conserv freezer proves the benefit of better insulation. In my > > >experience you can cut power use in half by going from 1 to 2.5 or 3 > inches > > >all around a refrigerator. Of course you cannot just add on outside a > > >freezer as the wall skin is used as a heat radiator!! > > > > > >Vestfrost / Conserv could build a larger one with very little increase in > > >power usage, because volume goes up with little surface area increase. > The > > >factory rep is interested in pushing for this, so if you think there is a > > >market for a 15 cu ft or so, he asks that you call him and also call > > Kyocera > > >and get them to request it. > > > > > >Here are some tips about the Conserv Chest freezer: > > >It often comes with factory set inside temp range of -20 to - 5F. This > is > > >too cold to make good energy sense and makes even the best ice cream to > > hard > > >to serve. We have discovered a way to change the range of the control > knob > > >to -5 to +8 and that seems to work better, and cuts typical use from 1200 > > >watt hours a day to 850 on hottest days, as low as 500 watt hours in 70 > > >degree days. It takes a small hard to find torx driver which we loan > > >customers... but not having it here I cannot recall if size is number 7 > or > > >8. > > > > > >The Vestfrost/conserv factory rep in US is Adrian Whitney Smith at > > >850-647-3889, . admarint at digitalexp.com. > > >very helpful with technical info that Kyocera people cannot seem to get. > > By > > >the way the rumor that the freezer is being discontinued is completely > > >false, he says. > > > > > >Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com > > >Backwoods Solar Electric Systems > > >> My newer (1 yr old) Amana 21 cu. ft bottom freezer fridge is using just > > >over > > >> 1.8 kWh's per day @ 80f. It's yellow tag rated it at 576 kwh's per > > >year. > > >> I found it to be using something like 1.2 when the kitchen was under > 70f. > > >I > > >> subscribe to several energy trade journals and they are talking about > the > > >> next generation of motor driven appliances are going to be using much > > more > > >> advanced motors within a few years. It seems that manufacturers have > > gone > > >> about as far as they can with non-motor efficiency improvements. It > > >sounds > > >> promising that within several years we should be able to appliances > > >locally > > >> that are ideal for RE systems. > > >> > > >> Travis Creswell > > >> Ozark Solar > > > > > > > > >- - - - - - - > > >To send a message: > > > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > > > > >The archive of previous messages: > > > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > > > > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > > > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > > > > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > > > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > > www.homepower.com > > > > > >For info contact list moderator by email: > > > michael.welch at homepower.com > > >___________________________________________________________ > > >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > > >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > > > > > > - - - - - - - > > To send a message: > > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > > > The archive of previous messages: > > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > www.homepower.com > > > > For info contact list moderator by email: > > michael.welch at homepower.com > > ___________________________________________________________ > > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > > > - - - - - - - > > To send a message: > > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > > > The archive of previous messages: > > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > www.homepower.com > > > > For info contact list moderator by email: > > michael.welch at homepower.com > > ___________________________________________________________ > > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From jay at asis.com Mon Sep 11 12:35:38 2000 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 09:35:38 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.2127761947-951758591-967842778@topica.com> <0.1300002502.249335662-212058698-968217519@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.102339743-951758591-968690138@topica.com> Count me in, jay peltz Jonathan Hill wrote: > >Why not a 5 year minimum time in The RE biz, or a recommendation > >from someone who has been there that long? > > Jon HIll > > >I like the idea a lot, but I share the concern of others re how to establish > >some controls on who can be on the list. Eventually this could become the > >definitive list of bona-fide wrenching dealers with solid reputations. > >There should be some clearly-defined set of qualifications to be on it, as > >some of those who are least qualified may want the most to be included. I > >would like to see the discussion continue about how to structure a procedure > >for qualifying applicants, that all would have to go through, including all > >of us. > > I don't have good answers on what to require, though. There's no > >testing standard, and wrenches are a notoriously independent bunch. Perhaps > >an old-timers review committee, with Bob-o, Richard, Steve..(where's a > >woman's name when I need one?), others who have been around the block a few > >times...it's still a pretty small industry. > > > >(even Trace service dept keeps logs of who sends them stuff that's really > >broke and who sends bogus problems) > > > >Allan at Positive Energy > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Don Loweburg, Offline > >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > >Date: Thursday, August 31, 2000 10:30 PM > >Subject: Re: Referral [RE-wrenches] > > > > > > >In a message dated 08/31/2000 4:40:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > > >ellison at gisco.net writes: > > > > > ><< Let's go for it, > > > Bob Ellison > > > >> > > >This is great. For sometime I've felt the IPP site was underutilized but > > >didn't have the juice to do anything about it. This is perfect. Michael, > > >what do I need to do for this to happen?Best, Don > > > > > >- - - - - - - > > >To send a message: > > > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > > > > >The archive of previous messages: > > > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > > > > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > > > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > > > > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > > > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > > www.homepower.com > > > > > >For info contact list moderator by email: > > > michael.welch at homepower.com > > >___________________________________________________________ > > >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > > >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > > > > > >- - - - - - - > >To send a message: > > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > > >The archive of previous messages: > > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > www.homepower.com > > > >For info contact list moderator by email: > > michael.welch at homepower.com > >___________________________________________________________ > >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > ----------------- > > Sierra Solar Systems > 109-N Argall Way > Nevada City, CA 95959 > tech info and foreign orders: (530) 265-8441 > order line: (800) 51-SOLAR (US only) FAX: (530) 265-6151 > e-mail: > world wide web: > > Because of the high volume of e-mail to which I respond, please > leave _all_ of the previous message (unless it's unbearable) in > your reply so I can better remember your original message. > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From jay at asis.com Mon Sep 11 12:35:46 2000 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 09:35:46 -0700 Subject: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.31689943-212058698-968275022@topica.com> <0.1300002502.552574081-212058698-968283446@topica.com> <0.1300002502.529639118-212058698-968351059@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.719588926-212058698-968690146@topica.com> Hi Bob, You might try TEKSUPPLY #800-457-8887 part #wr-1361 $61.16 for a water flow meter 25 gpm max 3/4" MPT, plastic case. or aquatic eco systems 800-422-3939 #fm-1 1/2" meter $49 thanks, jay peltz "Bob Maynard, Energy Outfitters" wrote: > Ian and all, > Haven't found a cheap or easy water flow meter, but have extended the waste water > discharge hose on washers into bath tubs, 50 gallon drums, etc. to catch the water > and then measure the volume. I think(don't trust MY memory) that the Maytag spec > was 18 gal per load. Staber comment: Yes they are designed for owner repair, but > I found that I was taking it apart and working on it much more than I ever wanted > to. Granted this was 3-4 years ago and it could be a better product now, but I > have a long memory when it comes to less than pleasant experiences. > Regards, > Bob Maynard > Energy Outfitters > 800-GO-SOLAR > > "Ian Woofenden, Home Power" wrote: > > > Hi Bob, > > > > At 2:17 PM -0700 9/6/00, Bob Ellison, Alternative Energy Systems wrote: > > >When they first came out the local store spent a lot of time with me on a > > >learning curve, MAYTAG told them that the power usage was 285 WH. Maybe they > > >have changed things sense then? They even told me that it was not designed > > >to be super efficient. > > > > I don't know where that came from. Bob Maynard recommend the Neptune > > to me as one of the most efficient models out there, and I've checked > > ours multiple times with the Brand meter. > > > > >Any idea how it does on water use? > > > > No. Does Brand Electronics make a water use meter? ;-) > > Is there a simple and cheap water use meter out there. It would be > > interesting to play with. > > > > >Heard a rumor you were in my back yard recently any truth to it?? > > > > > >Bob > > > > We landed back on the island today after a 6 week 8K mile trip from > > here to Maine, with various stops along the way, including SolWest, > > three days at Mick Sagrillo's, a rendezvous with the SEI wind > > workshop in Colorado, and tracking down a wind homebrewer on the > > coast of Maine (see HP79). Not sure how close we got to you, since we > > went through NYC (big mistake) on the way to Maine, and skirted > > around it on 84 on the way to Philly on the way back. > > > > It would have been fun to make lots of RE stops, but I had the whole > > family, and their attention span for windmills is shorter than mine. > > We did see a lot of wind generators and PVs, and the kids sang out > > when they saw them. Maybe I should go solo with the bus for the RE > > Wrenches Tour... > > > > (Where'd you hear that rumor?) > > > > Best, > > > > Ian > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > >From: Ian Woofenden, Home Power [mailto:ian.woofenden at homepower.com] > > >Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 3:10 PM > > >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > > >Subject: RE: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] > > > > > > > > >Hey Bob, > > > > > >I've measured our Neptune at 105 WH (AC, post inverter) per load with > > >a Brand meter, which is better than the Staber. > > > > > >Perhaps you are referring to stats on a model with a built-in water > > >heater? One salesman mentioned that the new model would have this > > >(questionable) feature. > > > > > >We are really pleased with this machine. > > > > > >Ian > > > > > >At 8:17 PM -0700 8/30/00, Bob Ellison, Alternative Energy Systems wrote: > > >>The last info that I had on the Neptune is that it is NOT an efficient > > >>washer. It draws considerably more than the Staber and a HUGE amount of > > >>water, I have been told that it constantly replaces water to cut down on > > >>sudsing..... So it uses lots of water and pump run time. > > >-- > > >Ian Woofenden , Fax: 360-293-7034 > > >Associate Editor, Home Power magazine, The Hands-On Journal Of Home-Made > > >Power > > >Editors are Professional Idiots - We misunderstand text so our readers > > >won't. > > > > > >HP subscriptions: $22.50 per year, PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA > > >800-707-6585 (US), 541-512-0220, or download current issue at > > > > > > > > >- - - - - - - > > >To send a message: > > > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > > > > >The archive of previous messages: > > > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > > > > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > > > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > > > > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > > > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > > www.homepower.com > > > > > >For info contact list moderator by email: > > > michael.welch at homepower.com > > >___________________________________________________________ > > >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > > >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > > > > >- - - - - - - > > >To send a message: > > > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > > > > >The archive of previous messages: > > > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > > > > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > > > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > > > > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > > > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > > www.homepower.com > > > > > >For info contact list moderator by email: > > > michael.welch at homepower.com > > >___________________________________________________________ > > >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > > >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > > > -- > > Ian Woofenden , Fax: 360-293-7034 > > Associate Editor, Home Power magazine, The Hands-On Journal Of Home-Made Power > > Editors are Professional Idiots - We misunderstand text so our readers won't. > > > > HP subscriptions: $22.50 per year, PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA > > 800-707-6585 (US), 541-512-0220, or download current issue at > > > > > > - - - - - - - > > To send a message: > > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > > > The archive of previous messages: > > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > www.homepower.com > > > > For info contact list moderator by email: > > michael.welch at homepower.com > > ___________________________________________________________ > > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From i2p at aol.com Mon Sep 11 12:56:48 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (Don Loweburg, Offline) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 09:56:48 -0700 Subject: Referral [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.627477719-951758591-968691408@topica.com> In a message dated 09/11/2000 9:44:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time, jay at asis.com writes: << Count me in, >> Thanks Jay. Send me info on how you want to be listed. Your IPP membership dues of $50 will go for setting up and maintaining our new site i2p.org. Best, Don - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From j.lamb at pecorp.com Mon Sep 11 14:49:43 2000 From: j.lamb at pecorp.com (James Lamb, Middle Fork Engineering) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 11:49:43 -0700 Subject: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.189751226-212058698-968698183@topica.com> Jay Its is always best to check with the manufacture since an improper pressure at the orifice will cause incomplete mixing of the air and propane. This will cause a dirty flame producing carbon monoxide. Some regulators require a spring replacement and others have a item that is reversed or inserted into the regulator that compresses the spring for the higher pressure. Note that the pressure must be adjusted to a specified pressure as provided by the manufacture. To be safe the manufacture must be consulted since there are different methods to do the conversion. Combustion is an area that must be done right. Looking right is not enough. James Lamb Middlefork Engineering > ---------- > From: jay peltz[SMTP:jay at asis.com] > Reply To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 11:35 AM > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Subject: Re: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] > > Hi Holt, > > Thanks for the heads up. I would of course check with each unit, but the > ones > that I have worked on have listed that the only change is the jet/orifice. > Yes > you are right that there is a difference in pressure etc. But do you have > any > idea of how these other companies do the converson without changing > anything but > the orifice? > > Thanks > > Jay Peltz > > Holt Kelly wrote: > > > Hello Jay, > > I was specifically talking about Millivolt control valves, and the valve > is > > not replaced, but a conversion of the regulator in the valve is > > necessary(changes the pressure). Not sure that many gas dryers use these > > valves but anything with a thermostat/remote switch usually does. Also > the > > electronic ignition valves require switching the regulator. > > There is a big difference in the pressure. LP requires 11 water column > > inches while NG requires only 4.5 WCI. I has to do with efficiency in > the > > way LP(heavier than air) needs more pressure to burn clean. If the > > conversion of the appliance is not correct it will self destruct($$$$). > > Please be careful. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: jay peltz [mailto:jay at asis.com] > > Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 7:27 PM > > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > > Subject: Re: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] > > > > Hi All, > > > > >From my experierence this isn't true. To convert all that I have done, > > either a > > burner orifice or an burner and pilot orifice is needed. There is no > need > > to > > replace the control valves on the units that I have either worked on or > > talked > > to people about. The gas pressure being pretty much the same, and there > is > > no > > problem with the gas valve working either propane or natural gas. > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > jay peltz > > > > Holt Kelly wrote: > > > > > Greetings, > > > Please Note that when converting LP to NG or vice versa that not only > is > > the > > > main burner orifice changed, the regulator on the valve and the pilot > > > orifice must be changed (millivolt control valves). These components > > should > > > be in the conversion kit. One final note: some mfg's in the fireplace > > (gas) > > > industry will not sell you a conversion kit - you have to send the > burner > > to > > > them($$$$$$)so be sure that a conversion kit is available from the > mfg. of > > > the appliance you are buying. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: allan [mailto:allan at positivenergy.com] > > > Sent: Monday, August 28, 2000 7:50 PM > > > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > > > Subject: Re: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] > > > > > > Travis, > ---------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From roy at four-winds-energy.com Mon Sep 11 15:07:21 2000 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler, Four Winds RE) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 12:07:21 -0700 Subject: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1062841523-951758591-968510231@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2101016196-212058698-968699241@topica.com> Travis, I had to reply to this one...I hit this wall several times a week! One one hand, I enjoy the challenge of learning the many aspects of this industry. On the other hand, I'm constantly frustrated by the overwhelming amount of knowledge I must gain (and fairly quickly) in order to do a professional job. Of course, if it was easy, everybody would be doing it and a lot of us would be out of a job! So....with that said...one of the main reasons for subscribing to this list is to tap into the collective experience here. Although I think a certain degree of specialization might be nice, I still have to agree with Robert Heinlein when he said...."specialization is for insects." Roy Butler Four WInds RE Arkport, NY 14807 "Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar" wrote: > > By selling appliances and other things not directly solar related I feel > that our customers could be getting short changed. They look to us to be > "experts" on everything. > Can we really be > -Battery experts > -Solar Panel Experts > -Inverter Experts > -Charge Controller Experts > -Solar Water Pumping Experts > -Electricians > -System Designers > and Appliance Experts all at the same time? > > For example what's the best battery for given application? There would be > almost as many opinions among us as there was batteries. On top of that we > are all competing with Internet Mega Marts who will tell a customers > anything just to get a sale. > > Maybe someday we'll have a solar industry that has enough business that we > (installing dealers) can have employees who specialize in each part of the > install. > > Travis Creswell > Ozark Solar - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From econnect at snowcrest.net Mon Sep 11 15:16:44 2000 From: econnect at snowcrest.net (Bob-O Schultze, Electron Connection) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 12:16:44 -0700 Subject: installer's list [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.131579753-212058698-968557676@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.131579753-212058698-968557676@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.604043479-212058698-968699804@topica.com> Don, ETAL, I think that you SHOULD be required to join IPP to get on the installers list. First, like you said, there are costs involved in setting up a site, not to mention yet more and more as yet uncompensated volunteer time. Very few of us actually know how much time you spend on us already or just how much work IPP gets done for us on a budget of nearly zip. Second, IPP is the ONLY organization to speak for the Wrenches without having some other motive such as selling them products. We all need to belong and support it. Third, you want totally FREE referrals? Be prepared to get what you pay for. Anyone getting free lunches from Trace, BP, Kyocera, etc.? >In a message dated 09/09/2000 9:31:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time, >ozsolar at ipa.net writes: > ><< I plan on joining IPP and I'll get the check off ASAP. Do we need to be a > member of IPP to be on the installers list you are creating? I think we > should but it hasn't been stated that I can find. > > Thanks > Travis Creswell > Ozark Solar > >> >Thanks Travis, Of course I hope so and will be gently encouraging IPP >membership. > >Many of the Wrenches are IPP members already. IPP members will have access to >the IPP logo also. My thinking at this point is that IPP membership is not >required since not all wrenches on the list are members. I'm especially open >to thoughts by IPP members and non member wrenchs on this. We will have >additional costs associated with the new web site, so additional financial >input will be needed. > >Don Bob-O Schultze, Electron Connection PO Box 203, Hornbrook, CA 96044 800.945.7587 fax 530-475-3401 www.electronconnection.com - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Mon Sep 11 16:04:23 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (R. Sparks Scott) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 13:04:23 -0700 Subject: DC answering machine [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1327757127-212058698-968686929@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1593660019-951758591-968702663@topica.com> Interested List Members; Finally, I got some time and put the telephone wake up circuit together so you can view it. Go to . If anyone wants to use their CAD program to make the schematic more presentable, let me know, I'll update the Acrobat file with the new diagram. -S - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunpwr at jps.net Mon Sep 11 16:30:13 2000 From: sunpwr at jps.net (Chuck Heath, SunPower) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 13:30:13 -0700 Subject: No AC out, DR1512 [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.264295943-951758591-968704213@topica.com> Just sold a used DR-1512 that was working fine during the reinstall. Now, he reports it turns on (green LED), hums, but there's no AC out using it as an inverter/battery system. He has checked the built-in DR circuit breaker, and the separate Trace AC Out and Gen In circuit breakers. Pounded the DR with the heel of his hand in hopes the internal xfr. relay was "stuck" in the gen mode. No joy! It still functions fine feeding 120 AC from the gen input through the Trace output wiring while charging, but not as an inverter. Battery voltage is fine. The new owner swears he never starts/stops his gen without the gen. circuit breaker off, so I don't think it's an inrush current/spike/high THD problem. Ideas? Chuck Heath Big Oak Flat CA - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunpwr at jps.net Mon Sep 11 16:30:14 2000 From: sunpwr at jps.net (Chuck Heath, SunPower) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 13:30:14 -0700 Subject: SW4024 charger cycling - SOLVED! [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.432343061-951758591-968704214@topica.com> Thanks to this list, the problem of a SW4024 cycling between Bulk charge and Inverter has been solved, especially suggestions from David Palumbo of IP&L, Allan at Positive Energy and others. Solution: Reduce Max Charge Amps (Menu #10) from previous setting of 35A to 25A. Likewise changed Gen AC Amps (Menu #11) from 35A to 25A. Experimentation showed normal charging using 20A, then later to 25A. Upping it to 28A caused the original problem to return - going into Bulk for 30 sec., back to inverting for 10 sec., then back into Bulk, over and over again. Why it operated normally with the 35A. settings for several years is still a mystery. Gen is a propane-fueled Kohler 12RY, wired for full 120 VAC output. Battery is C&D 2-volt industrial, 1270AH @ 20 hr. rate, 24 VDC nominal. No solar, wind or hydro charging. Thanks again! Chuck Heath Big Oak Flat CA - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Mon Sep 11 18:30:36 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 15:30:36 -0700 Subject: No AC out, DR1512 [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1678718641-951758591-968711436@topica.com> Chuck, Is it turned on? Don't laugh! The DR allows AC to pass through (unlike the SW) when its off. It might charge when its off but its been a while since I installed a DR. Travis Creswell Ozark Solar ---------- >From: "Chuck Heath, SunPower" >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Subject: No AC out, DR1512 [RE-wrenches] >Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000, 3:30 PM > >Just sold a used DR-1512 that was working fine during the reinstall. Now, >he reports it turns on (green LED), hums, but there's no AC out using it >as an inverter/battery system. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Mon Sep 11 20:36:39 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 17:36:39 -0700 Subject: DC answering machine [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1593660019-951758591-968702663@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.18812765-951758591-968718999@topica.com> FAX/ANSWER POWER TIMER: Thanks the diagram, looks great, but I think I can add something. I did start out something like that but having found people hesitated to supply it with AC as well as DC and all the assorted wiring, I worked to simplify it. The present design eliminated all phantom ,load as well as eliminated the need to provide DC power. The ring of the phone primes it and it goes AC self powered from there. But it did put the cost up there. I offer the details for wrenches to copy for themselves or custom use fro their customers, but hopefully not as a competing product. Sorry I can't make a drawing on email yet: I used an SSAC timer #HRDB424. This is a 120 VAC powered timer with adjustable delay 1 to 100 minutes. It has a 15 amp isolated relay output and is the only timer they have that can work with a parallel load on the trigger circuit. The phone ring trips a Radio Shack ring detector which closes its relay only during the interval of the ring, putting a 20 - 40 watt bulb and the trigger of the timer across the inverter. this starts the inverter and triggers the timer to latch up and start timing out. The timer relay is then feeding the already started inverter to the fax (or answer machine or both) AND also, if necessary, to a second bulb to assure holding the inverter active. The timer fits inside a deep 4 plex outdoor box with metal cover, one duplex outlet and one switch/outlet combo. This gives 3 outlets, one is permanently taken to plug in the radio shack ring detector which is like a little wall cube, all contained there. The remaining duplex outlets give one for the inverter-start bulb load, and the other for the timed fax & holding bulb. So everything is contained and just plugs in. No DC required and no phantom load. Now note that with fax units you must have a fax machine that can be plugged in to power at first ring, go through its song and dance and wake up to answer the call before too much time passes. Of course simple curly thermal faxes do this. Canon bubblejet plain paper fax will do that too after about 4 rings. Not sure about laser type plain paper units. One warning, if you don't get the holding load correct and the inverter starts cycling, you can dump a whole $40 ink cartridge in one hour of head cleaning cycles. (By the way, Sharkey's address below DOES work if you change the comma after www to a period) Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems ----- Original Message ----- From: R. Sparks Scott To: Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 1:04 PM Subject: Re: DC answering machine [RE-wrenches]> > Interested List Members; > Finally, I got some time and put the telephone wake up circuit together so > you can view it. Go to . If > anyone wants to use their CAD program to make the schematic more > presentable, let me know, I'll update the Acrobat file with the new diagram. > > -S - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From jay at asis.com Mon Sep 11 21:34:28 2000 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 18:34:28 -0700 Subject: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.189751226-212058698-968698183@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.309268712-951758591-968722468@topica.com> Hi James, Thanks for the info. Maybe I have just not seen or changed enough to run into these problems. I hope that I haven't given the idea that I just wing it. I am only doing what the manufacture says. Interesting how many different types there are though. I will keep a sharp eye for making sure it is done right. Mostly I live in an area without natural gas, so the almost all the appliances sold are already made for this. Thanks for all the input. Jay "James Lamb, Middle Fork Engineering" wrote: > Jay > Its is always best to check with the manufacture since an improper pressure > at the orifice will cause incomplete mixing of the air and propane. This > will cause a dirty flame producing carbon monoxide. Some regulators require > a spring replacement and others have a item that is reversed or inserted > into the regulator that compresses the spring for the higher pressure. Note > that the pressure must be adjusted to a specified pressure as provided by > the manufacture. To be safe the manufacture must be consulted since there > are different methods to do the conversion. Combustion is an area that must > be done right. Looking right is not enough. > > James Lamb > Middlefork Engineering > > > > ---------- > > From: jay peltz[SMTP:jay at asis.com] > > Reply To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > > Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 11:35 AM > > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > > Subject: Re: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] > > > > Hi Holt, > > > > Thanks for the heads up. I would of course check with each unit, but the > > ones > > that I have worked on have listed that the only change is the jet/orifice. > > Yes > > you are right that there is a difference in pressure etc. But do you have > > any > > idea of how these other companies do the converson without changing > > anything but > > the orifice? > > > > Thanks > > > > Jay Peltz > > > > Holt Kelly wrote: > > > > > Hello Jay, > > > I was specifically talking about Millivolt control valves, and the valve > > is > > > not replaced, but a conversion of the regulator in the valve is > > > necessary(changes the pressure). Not sure that many gas dryers use these > > > valves but anything with a thermostat/remote switch usually does. Also > > the > > > electronic ignition valves require switching the regulator. > > > There is a big difference in the pressure. LP requires 11 water column > > > inches while NG requires only 4.5 WCI. I has to do with efficiency in > > the > > > way LP(heavier than air) needs more pressure to burn clean. If the > > > conversion of the appliance is not correct it will self destruct($$$$). > > > Please be careful. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: jay peltz [mailto:jay at asis.com] > > > Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 7:27 PM > > > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > > > Subject: Re: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > > > >From my experierence this isn't true. To convert all that I have done, > > > either a > > > burner orifice or an burner and pilot orifice is needed. There is no > > need > > > to > > > replace the control valves on the units that I have either worked on or > > > talked > > > to people about. The gas pressure being pretty much the same, and there > > is > > > no > > > problem with the gas valve working either propane or natural gas. > > > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > > > jay peltz > > > > > > Holt Kelly wrote: > > > > > > > Greetings, > > > > Please Note that when converting LP to NG or vice versa that not only > > is > > > the > > > > main burner orifice changed, the regulator on the valve and the pilot > > > > orifice must be changed (millivolt control valves). These components > > > should > > > > be in the conversion kit. One final note: some mfg's in the fireplace > > > (gas) > > > > industry will not sell you a conversion kit - you have to send the > > burner > > > to > > > > them($$$$$$)so be sure that a conversion kit is available from the > > mfg. of > > > > the appliance you are buying. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: allan [mailto:allan at positivenergy.com] > > > > Sent: Monday, August 28, 2000 7:50 PM > > > > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > > > > Subject: Re: Gas Dryers and Washing Machines [RE-wrenches] > > > > > > > > Travis, > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > The information transmitted is intended only for the person > or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential > and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, > dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in > reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the > intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please > contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Mon Sep 11 22:38:39 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (R. Sparks Scott) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 19:38:39 -0700 Subject: DC answering machine [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.18812765-951758591-968718999@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1593660019-951758591-968702663@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.967737202-951758591-968726319@topica.com> Steve; Very ingenious, using the phone line to kick start the circuit. I assume that anyone who would bother building the widget circuit probably wouldn't have a problem bringing DC over to the device either. Modern consumer electronics can do more faster, but it sounds like the more features it has, the more bugs that will show up when we try to trick it into doing things that it wasn't designed for. CRUMBS! I thought I had corrected that stray comma out of the URL. Here it is again, in case anyone wants to try it -S - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Mon Sep 11 23:50:16 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (R. Sparks Scott) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 20:50:16 -0700 Subject: DC answering machine [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.18812765-951758591-968718999@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1593660019-951758591-968702663@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1625368242-212058698-968730616@topica.com> List; Just to show that you can teach an old shark new tricks, I've redesigned the widget circuit to require no external DC power source. Try: -S - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solar at eagle-access.net Tue Sep 12 13:52:33 2000 From: solar at eagle-access.net (Drake Chamberlin, Quicksilver Electrical) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 10:52:33 -0700 Subject: SW4024 charger cycling - SOLVED! [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.432343061-951758591-968704214@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1233296861-951758591-968781153@topica.com> My guess is that the generator motor is wearing, and not as powerful as it was. "Chuck Heath, SunPower" wrote: > Thanks to this list, the problem of a SW4024 cycling between Bulk charge > and Inverter has been solved, especially suggestions from David Palumbo > of IP&L, Allan at Positive Energy and others. > > Solution: Reduce Max Charge Amps (Menu #10) from previous setting of 35A > to 25A. Likewise changed Gen AC Amps (Menu #11) from 35A to 25A. > > Experimentation showed normal charging using 20A, then later to 25A. > Upping it to 28A caused the original problem to return - going into Bulk > for 30 sec., back to inverting for 10 sec., then back into Bulk, over and > over again. Why it operated normally with the 35A. settings for several > years is still a mystery. > > Gen is a propane-fueled Kohler 12RY, wired for full 120 VAC output. > Battery is C&D 2-volt industrial, 1270AH @ 20 hr. rate, 24 VDC nominal. > No solar, wind or hydro charging. > > Thanks again! > > Chuck Heath > Big Oak Flat CA > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From wstahle at slonet.org Wed Sep 13 01:59:20 2000 From: wstahle at slonet.org (Wallace Stahle, Future Elec. Energy Co.) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 22:59:20 -0700 Subject: Desulfaters? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1083223824-212058698-968824760@topica.com> Howdy fellow Wrenches, Do any of you have any firm experience with either the Power Pulse or DeSulfater battery zappers being better than the other one? I am going to start using them and would appreciate any advice that will minimize misapplication. I was told by the Power Pulse distributer that one is needed for each series string of batteries as the "rippled pulse is smoothed out by the time it gets to the other strings" or at least that is how I understood it. Also, the top of their cut sheet uses Richard Perez's name almost as an endorsement of their version. Any input here Richard? Thanks for any responses, Wally Stahle - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From jackwest at alaska.net Wed Sep 13 02:19:15 2000 From: jackwest at alaska.net (Jack West, Talkeetna AE) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 23:19:15 -0700 Subject: SW2512 and pump problems [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.432343061-951758591-968704214@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1233296861-951758591-968781153@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1487636743-212058698-968825955@topica.com> Wrenches, I have a customer with a SW2512, 1400AH battery. Every time pump comes on, system browns out enough to cause computer and TV problems (crashes and resets). Pump is 1/3 HP 115 VAC two wire sub pump, approximately one year old. Pump runs OK. Well is not deep, maybe 40 feet. Even browns out with open discharge from pump. Any suggestions? This is the first two wire pump I have seen on a SW inverter. Is this the problem? Any suggestions would be appreciated. More system info: Batteries one year old, 2/0 interconnects, 4/0 inverter cables. DC175. E-meter. 8 kW genset. Brownout is momentary but very noticeable, even with minimal other loads (<20A DC) Thanks Jack West Talkeetna AE - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunwise at win.bright.net Wed Sep 13 10:22:48 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (Kurt Nelson, SunWise) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 07:22:48 -0700 Subject: SW2512 and pump problems [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.432343061-951758591-968704214@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1233296861-951758591-968781153@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1487636743-212058698-968825955@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2071819795-951758591-968854968@topica.com> Jack West, Talkeetna AE wrote: > > Wrenches, > I have a customer with a SW2512, 1400AH battery. Every time pump comes on, > system browns out enough to cause computer and TV problems. > Jack West > Talkeetna AE Hey Jack, Sorry to respond with questions, but it seems like the problem has to lie with either the DC supply to the inverter, the inverter itself, the ac supply to the pump, or the pump itself. Okay so that's obvious, but it can also be a combination. Some questions that may help in determining what's going on with that pump. First, how many amps DC does the Emeter say the pump is drawing. Second, and you almost gotta have a Fluke 87 (or similar) meter with Min/Max recording, how far does the voltage drop on the DC inputs of the Trace when the pump comes on? On the pump end, what size wire do you have going out to the pump and how long a run? Maybe also, how much current ac is the pump drawing? Another note, it is my understanding that sub-pumps can actually draw more current when pumping at zero PSI to an open pipe than when "finishing up" at high PSI and not moving much water. Maybe someone more knowledgable could come in here, but I think inexpensive two wire pumps have a starter winding that should come on to get things going and if the starter winding is toast, the primary winding could be drawing lots more current on pump start-up. -- Kurt Nelson > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cpae1 at aol.com Wed Sep 13 10:29:51 2000 From: cpae1 at aol.com (Frank Fowler, Crystal Pines Alt. Energy ) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 07:29:51 -0700 Subject: SW2512 and pump problems [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1500593691-212058698-968855391@topica.com> Jack, Has this system ever worked properly, or has the problem just started? My experience with well pumps powered by inverters say not to use 2-wire and always use a pump controller. The controller softens up the start of the pump. SUNcerely, Frank Fowler Crystal Pines Alternative Energy 530-532-1972 "Living off grid with products we market, install and service" www.solarenergy-alt.com - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From windy at dankoffsolar.com Wed Sep 13 10:31:55 2000 From: windy at dankoffsolar.com (Windy Dankoff, Dankoff Solar) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 07:31:55 -0700 Subject: SW2512 and pump problems [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1487636743-212058698-968825955@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.432343061-951758591-968704214@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1233296861-951758591-968781153@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1487636743-212058698-968825955@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.152921976-212058698-968855515@topica.com> >Wrenches, >I have a customer with a SW2512, 1400AH battery. Every time pump comes on, >system browns out enough to cause computer and TV problems (crashes and >resets). Pump is 1/3 HP 115 VAC two wire sub pump, approximately one year >old. This is to be expected with a 2-wire pump. It lacks the separate start winding of a 3-wire pump (with control box to cut the start winding out). >Even browns out with open discharge from pump. The load on the pump does not effect the magnitude of the starting surge, but only (maybe) its duration. I would suggest either switch to a 3-wire pump (somewhat less surge/use one with a Franklin 1/3HP motor, 115V), or a Grundfos SQ electronic motor AC pump (soft start, no surge). Efficiency is probably similar with either of these, except for the no surge with more expensive SQ. Another possibility is to pump once a day, or once every few days, into a storage tank, then use a DC pressurizing pump like Flowlight Booster Pump, to handle the frequent pressurizing. I could suggest a DC submersible pump, but with a 12V system, pressurizing, your choices are severely limited. For more info on inverter sizing relative to pump HP and type, see our web site, Reference, Water Supply article on inverter power for AC subs. Windy -- =========================== From the solar powered office of Windy Dankoff, President =========================== Dankoff Solar Products, Inc. Wholesale distributor of solar-electric equipment Manufacturer & distributor of solar water pumps 2810 Industrial Rd. Santa Fe, NM 87505 (505) 473-3800 FAX 473-3830 E-mail: info at dankoffsolar.com SEE OUR INFORMATIVE WEB SITE AT: http://www.dankoffsolar.com =========================== To contact Windy Dankoff directly: Most days I am at my home office e-mail: windy at dankoffsolar.com tel/fax: (505) 466-0059 ~ amateur radio KE5HV ~ =========================== - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From windy at dankoffsolar.com Wed Sep 13 10:46:35 2000 From: windy at dankoffsolar.com (Windy Dankoff, Dankoff Solar) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 07:46:35 -0700 Subject: SW2512 and pump problems [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1500593691-212058698-968855391@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1500593691-212058698-968855391@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.640756605-212058698-968856395@topica.com> Jack, Kurt said: >...it is my understanding that sub-pumps can actually draw >more current when pumping at zero PSI to an open pipe than when >"finishing up" at high PSI and not moving much water. Yes. This is true for ALL centrifugal impeller-type pumps, regardless of sub or surface, AC, DC whatever. Also, motor start initial inrush current is due to the first instant of power being applied to a "locked" (stopped) rotor -- regardless of the load. The load will effect only the duration of the surge -- probably longer duration with open discharge! > I think inexpensive two wire >pumps have a starter winding that should come on to get things going and >if the starter winding is toast, the primary winding could be drawing >lots more current on pump start-up. The starter winding never cuts out, or else there is no separate starter winding at all (not sure) but I think that if there was winding damage, then it would not start at all. If the pump has not apparently changed since first installation, then I would assume pump is fine. Again, this surge problem is to be expected under your conditions. Frank said: >My experience with well pumps powered by inverters say not to use 2-wire and >always use a pump controller. The controller softens up the start of the pump. He's right about avoiding 2-wire pumps. To clarify, you cannot add a controller to a 2-wire. The controller is a part of a 3-wire system, it applies power to the start winding which draws too much current to stay in the circuit once the pump gets up to speed -- at that point, it switches it out. I don't think there is anything trick you can apply to the 2-wire pump circuit that will make any significant difference, but ... anybody? Windy - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From toddcory at jps.net Wed Sep 13 10:52:42 2000 From: toddcory at jps.net (Todd Cory, Bald Mt. Solar) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 07:52:42 -0700 Subject: SW2512 and pump problems [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.432343061-951758591-968704214@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1233296861-951758591-968781153@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1487636743-212058698-968825955@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.87105204-951758591-968856762@topica.com> I was going to suggest you check the starting capacitor, but as your pump is a 2 wire unit there in no starting capacitor, at least at the top end. I am not sure how a 2 wire pumps work, but I suspect the starting circuitry is on the pump itself. I had a similar problem with a 3 wire pump with blown capacitor, which was easily solved. Sounds like a problem with the pump. Does this situation also happen running off the genset? TC "Jack West, Talkeetna AE" wrote: > Wrenches, > I have a customer with a SW2512, 1400AH battery. Every time pump comes on, > system browns out enough to cause computer and TV problems (crashes and > resets). - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From econnect at snowcrest.net Wed Sep 13 11:12:45 2000 From: econnect at snowcrest.net (Bob-O Schultze, Electron Connection) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 08:12:45 -0700 Subject: SW2512 and pump problems [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.152921976-212058698-968855515@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.432343061-951758591-968704214@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1233296861-951758591-968781153@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1487636743-212058698-968825955@topica.com> <0.1300002502.152921976-212058698-968855515@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2096082340-951758591-968857965@topica.com> Yo Windy, PLEASE correct me if I'm out of date, but I thought those cool Grunfos soft start jobs were only available in 237vac???? If so, Jack would need a step-up Xformer as well. Bob-O >I would suggest either switch to a 3-wire pump (somewhat less >surge/use one with a Franklin 1/3HP motor, 115V), or a Grundfos SQ >electronic motor AC pump (soft start, no surge). Efficiency is >probably similar with either of these, except for the no surge with >more expensive SQ. > >Another possibility is to pump once a day, or once every few days, >into a storage tank, then use a DC pressurizing pump like Flowlight >Booster Pump, to handle the frequent pressurizing. Bob-O Schultze, Electron Connection PO Box 203, Hornbrook, CA 96044 800.945.7587 fax 530-475-3401 www.electronconnection.com - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From windy at dankoffsolar.com Wed Sep 13 11:22:38 2000 From: windy at dankoffsolar.com (Windy Dankoff, Dankoff Solar) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 08:22:38 -0700 Subject: SW2512 and pump problems [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.2096082340-951758591-968857965@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.432343061-951758591-968704214@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1233296861-951758591-968781153@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1487636743-212058698-968825955@topica.com> <0.1300002502.152921976-212058698-968855515@topica.com> <0.1300002502.2096082340-951758591-968857965@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1229570334-951758591-968858558@topica.com> >Yo Windy, >PLEASE correct me if I'm out of date, but I thought those cool >Grunfos soft start jobs were only available in 237vac???? If so, >Jack would need a step-up Xformer as well. >Bob-O Ooops, you're right. It would need the transformer. If you do that, you'll also need to wire the pressure switch at the primary (input) of the transformer, so it isn't a phantom. Windy - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From i2p at aol.com Wed Sep 13 12:24:35 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (Don Loweburg, Offline) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 09:24:35 -0700 Subject: SW2512 and pump problems [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1225681947-212058698-968862275@topica.com> In a message dated 09/12/2000 11:21:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jackwest at alaska.net writes: << Wrenches, I have a customer with a SW2512, 1400AH battery. Every time pump comes on, system browns out enough to cause computer and TV problems (crashes and resets). Pump is 1/3 HP 115 VAC two wire sub pump, approximately one year old. Pump runs OK. Well is not deep, maybe 40 feet. Even browns out with open discharge from pump. Any suggestions? This is the first two wire pump I have seen on a SW inverter. Is this the problem? Any suggestions would be appreciated. >> DC side seems pretty ok. What about on the as distribution side, wire size, connections etc. You might also check both the DC start amps and the Ac start amps to see what might be going on. Don - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From allan at positivenergy.com Wed Sep 13 14:40:18 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 11:40:18 -0700 Subject: Desulfaters? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.399136466-951758591-968870418@topica.com> Wally, Our experience is limited with these--how do you test the performance when the results only show up in 5-15 years if it works at all?? We tested one--I think it was the Power Pulse--on a set of prematurely failed (sulfated, 2-3 years old) golf carts. After 3 months, they had retrned some of their capacity; not enough to use again, but enough to suggest that the unit would work to prevent or reduce sulfation buildup. Allan At +E -----Original Message----- From: Wallace Stahle, Future Elec. Energy Co. To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Date: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 12:14 AM Subject: Desulfaters? [RE-wrenches] >Howdy fellow Wrenches, > >Do any of you have any firm experience with either the Power Pulse or >DeSulfater battery zappers being better than the other one? > >I am going to start using them and would appreciate any advice that will >minimize misapplication. > >I was told by the Power Pulse distributer that one is needed for each >series string of batteries as the "rippled pulse is smoothed out by the >time it gets to the other strings" or at least that is how I understood >it. > >Also, the top of their cut sheet uses Richard Perez's name almost as an >endorsement of their version. Any input here Richard? > >Thanks for any responses, Wally Stahle > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From bill_loesch at compuserve.com Wed Sep 13 15:35:54 2000 From: bill_loesch at compuserve.com (Bill Loesch, Saint Louis Solar) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 12:35:54 -0700 Subject: Desulfaters? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1047790057-951758591-968873754@topica.com> Hi Wally, "Do any of you have any firm experience with either the Power Pulse or DeSulfater battery zappers being better than the other one?" As of over two years ago, Pulse Tech had an order of magnatude larger sales support materials for their wider range of (my opinion; overpriced) products. IES (Innovative Energy Systems) offered comparable pricing on the battery desulfation products. My decision to get one unit which was capable of AC and solar power and rotate it between my two banks of T-105 batteries in an RV application has proved less than ideal. Perhaps getting two self powered units (approx. same cost) would have been better? I would be quite interested in knowing Alastair Couper's experience with the commercial units and other research for his home brew desulfator article (HP77). Bill_Loesch Solar 1 / St Louis Solar 9905 Vasel Drive St Louis MO 63123 tel / fax 314 631 1094 bill_loesch at compuserve.com - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From roy at four-winds-energy.com Wed Sep 13 16:18:07 2000 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler, Four Winds RE) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 13:18:07 -0700 Subject: Desulfaters? [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.399136466-951758591-968870418@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1089702362-951758591-968876287@topica.com> And while we're on the subject of desulfators...I could never get a handle on just why you need 1 desulfator per series string. Wouldn't they be out of phase enough of the time so as to cancel each other out to a certain extent? I'm more comfortable with the units which are sized to the AH rating of the battery bank...makes more sense to me and it seems more cost-effective to boot! And I have to agree with Allan...how do you prove this works if you must wait 5-15 years to do it? And how can you be sure the batteries wouldn't have lasted that long w/o the desulfators?? Very hard to prove a negative! Doubting Roy @ Four Winds RE Arkport, NY - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From windy at dankoffsolar.com Wed Sep 13 18:49:11 2000 From: windy at dankoffsolar.com (Windy Dankoff, Dankoff Solar) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 15:49:11 -0700 Subject: Desulfaters? [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1089702362-951758591-968876287@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.399136466-951758591-968870418@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1089702362-951758591-968876287@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1521253960-951758591-968885351@topica.com> Wrenches, Here's my proposal of how to test a desulphator for actual recovery of battery capacity. If this works, then I WILL BELIEVE. Get 4 obviously sulphated batteries (like golf cart batts that are starting to swell and get hard on the ends). The batteries should all be closely identical in condition (measure each cell with hydrometer) and in working condition, however reduced in capacity. Put them in series either in a working (or demo) system, or on a trickle charge. Connect them in series for 24V. Charge full, and do a discharge test to measure AH (just use a known load X time, until hydrometer indicates low). They should show siginificantly less than the rated capacity, for this experiment to be useful. Wire a desulphator accross HALF of the bank, at 12V. Now, one set gets the desulphating action, and the other acts as the experimental control. No matter how the batteries are used, or not used, they all see the same conditions except for the desulphating action. I heard that desulphating action takes place when batteries are at full voltage, or being trickle-charged at full -- can anyone confirm this? After months of time, take comparative voltage measurements under current. Desulphated batteries should show less internal resistance than the control batteries. Thus, under charge, they should show lower voltage than the control. Under discharge, they should show higher voltage -- more stable, in other words. If that evidence shows up, do a discharge test and check them all with hydrometer. If the desulph. batteries are better, they will show a higher hydrometer reading than the others. I tried this with the desulph device that was distributed by an Oregon company about 8 years ago. Nothing happened after 6 months. Then, the manufacturer went out of business and the product was discredited. (also, I cycled the batteries a lot, before I heard that they should be topped off for the action to work.) I believe that the desulphator principle may be sound. I hope somebody else will try a test like this and see if we all can believe. Anyone? Windy - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From roy at four-winds-energy.com Wed Sep 13 19:26:19 2000 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler, Four Winds RE) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 16:26:19 -0700 Subject: Desulfaters? [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.399136466-951758591-968870418@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1089702362-951758591-968876287@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1521253960-951758591-968885351@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1820097450-951758591-968887579@topica.com> Hi Windy, It just so happens that I still have (and use) 8 Crown golf cart batteries I had installed on my own RE system in '97. Since then I've used all 8 in rotation for various shows and events. I've recently equalized and tested them and found them to have an average AH rating of 155. I'd love to do the test you mentioned...sounds like a fair test for both the manufacturer and the consumer. Any desulfator manufacturers out there willing to donate a unit in order to settle this question once and for all??? I'm willing to donate my time and batteries in return....whaddya say? Roy Butler Four Winds RE Arkport, NY www.four-winds-energy.com - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From econnect at snowcrest.net Wed Sep 13 20:10:10 2000 From: econnect at snowcrest.net (Bob-O Schultze, Electron Connection) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 17:10:10 -0700 Subject: Desulfaters? [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1521253960-951758591-968885351@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.399136466-951758591-968870418@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1089702362-951758591-968876287@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1521253960-951758591-968885351@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1218605593-212058698-968890210@topica.com> Windy, It's a good set-up, but using a hydrometer until it reads low is a pretty vague measurement. I've though about this many times and discussed it with Richard P., just never go around to doing it. I would do it with two battery banks and two E-meters equipped with the LLO or relay circuit. Most battery manus rate their batts down to a certain cell voltage which they call fully discharged. Wouldn't matter much what you picked as long as both meters were set to the same. I'd use 11.0V on a 12V battery or string. Charge as fully as possible, set up a known load as you suggest (a C-20 rate would be ideal) fed through a relay which is turned on by the E-meter relay. Zero the meter, set the meter relay function to cut off the load at 11.0 volts, and it should display the A/hrs out at the cut off point. Bob-O >Wrenches, > >Here's my proposal of how to test a desulphator for actual recovery >of battery capacity. If this works, then I WILL BELIEVE. > >Get 4 obviously sulphated batteries (like golf cart batts that are >starting to swell and get hard on the ends). The batteries should >all be closely identical in condition (measure each cell with >hydrometer) and in working condition, however reduced in capacity. > >Put them in series either in a working (or demo) system, or on a >trickle charge. > >Connect them in series for 24V. Charge full, and do a discharge test >to measure AH (just use a known load X time, until hydrometer >indicates low). They should show siginificantly less than the rated >capacity, for this experiment to be useful. > >Wire a desulphator accross HALF of the bank, at 12V. > >Now, one set gets the desulphating action, and the other acts as the >experimental control. No matter how the batteries are used, or not >used, they all see the same conditions except for the desulphating >action. > > I heard that desulphating action takes place when batteries >are at full voltage, > or being trickle-charged at full -- can anyone confirm this? > >After months of time, take comparative voltage measurements under >current. Desulphated batteries should show less internal resistance >than the control batteries. Thus, under charge, they should show >lower voltage than the control. Under discharge, they should show >higher voltage -- more stable, in other words. > >If that evidence shows up, do a discharge test and check them all >with hydrometer. If the desulph. batteries are better, they will >show a higher hydrometer reading than the others. > >I tried this with the desulph device that was distributed by an >Oregon company about 8 years ago. Nothing happened after 6 months. >Then, the manufacturer went out of business and the product was >discredited. (also, I cycled the batteries a lot, before I heard >that they should be topped off for the action to work.) > >I believe that the desulphator principle may be sound. I hope >somebody else will try a test like this and see if we all can >believe. > >Anyone? > >Windy > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: >RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: >www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: >michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From steve at backwoodssolar.com Wed Sep 13 20:16:53 2000 From: steve at backwoodssolar.com (Steve Willey, Backwoods Solar) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 17:16:53 -0700 Subject: Desulfaters? [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.399136466-951758591-968870418@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1089702362-951758591-968876287@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2027604838-212058698-968890613@topica.com> I think to prove desulfaters one would have to have a set of pretty uniformly sulfated batteries, and then apply the pulse units to just half of them, and charge all of them identically, as with an identical solar array and control on each, but NOT connect the groups together. Then, if there were a great difference between the ones charged with and without pulse units, I would believe it. I have seen all kinds of test reports, but none really showing this controlled test anywhere. Closest to it was the military test where they did use control batteries for comparison, but that one used pulsers with small solar cells built in on some batteries and nothing on the others. They got results but it could have been the solar cells that did it, still not proof of pulsing. That test is reported at See http://es.epa.gov/oeca/fedfac/initiati/armyfed/solar.html Steve Willey www.backwoodssolar.com Backwoods Solar Electric Systems ----- Original Message ----- From: Roy Butler, Four Winds RE To: Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 1:18 PM Subject: Re: Desulfaters? [RE-wrenches] > And while we're on the subject of desulfators...I could never get a handle > on just why you need 1 desulfator per series string. Wouldn't they be out > of phase enough of the time so as to cancel each other out to a certain > extent? I'm more comfortable with the units which are sized to the AH > rating of the battery bank...makes more sense to me and it seems more > cost-effective to boot! And I have to agree with Allan...how do you prove > this works if you must wait 5-15 years to do it? And how can you be sure > the batteries wouldn't have lasted that long w/o the desulfators?? Very > hard to prove a negative! > Doubting Roy @ Four Winds RE > Arkport, NY - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ellison at gisco.net Wed Sep 13 21:23:34 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison, Alternative Energy Systems) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 18:23:34 -0700 Subject: load testing batteries [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1820097450-951758591-968887579@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1299588156-212058698-968894614@topica.com> Roy, Are the batteries sulfated or just wore (used) For the test they need to be sulfated if I understand things correctly. I just did a load test on a pair of 20 cell battery packs. 510 AH @ 40 volts each. Here is the load test procedure. Charge them to a full reading on the hydrometer (varies with the specific batteries electrolyte) In most cases 1.85 or 1.90 SG (Specific gravity) Then put the proper load on the batteries, in this case 85 amps for 6 hours. Take a cell voltage reading after 10 minutes to get a reading without the surface charge. Then another at 50 min. Then one every 60 min until the cell voltage reaches 1.75 volts per cell. Then you get busy and do voltage tests continuously on all the cells until a cell reaches 1.70 volts. The test on that cell is over at 1.70 volts, in my case I jumpered the cell to bypass it and continued until 25% (5) of the cells dropped to 1.70 volts. In this batteries case if all cells got past the 5th hour before dropping below 1.70 volts the battery would pass the test, it didn't.... This battery is rated at a 6 hour rate. Doing a test on a battery rated for a 20 AH load for 20 hours will be long. You can use peukerts exponent to shorten the test, but it is not the same as a normal test. In the case of a 6 volt battery where you can't get to the cell connectors the voltages would be 5.25 volts and 5.10 volts for the battery voltages. Later, Bob Ellison -----Original Message----- From: Roy Butler, Four Winds RE [mailto:roy at four-winds-energy.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 7:26 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Re: Desulfaters? [RE-wrenches] Hi Windy, It just so happens that I still have (and use) 8 Crown golf cart batteries I had installed on my own RE system in '97. Since then I've used all 8 in rotation for various shows and events. I've recently equalized and tested them and found them to have an average AH rating of 155. I'd love to do the test you mentioned...sounds like a fair test for both the manufacturer and the consumer. Any desulfator manufacturers out there willing to donate a unit in order to settle this question once and for all??? I'm willing to donate my time and batteries in return....whaddya say? Roy Butler Four Winds RE Arkport, NY www.four-winds-energy.com - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From jackwest at alaska.net Thu Sep 14 02:25:19 2000 From: jackwest at alaska.net (Jack West, Talkeetna AE) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 23:25:19 -0700 Subject: SW2512 and pump problems [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1500593691-212058698-968855391@topica.com> <0.1300002502.640756605-212058698-968856395@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.245000767-212058698-968912719@topica.com> Windy, Thanks for the feedback. I will make a site visit to confirm the situation, check out customer's wiring modifications and see about changing out the pump to a 3 wire... Jack - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From mike at atlanticsolar.com Thu Sep 14 14:25:41 2000 From: mike at atlanticsolar.com (Mike Howell) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 11:25:41 -0700 Subject: Desulfaters? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1961833458-212058698-968955941@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 2167 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ipl at sover.net Thu Sep 14 14:47:46 2000 From: ipl at sover.net (David Palumbo, Independent Power & Light) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 11:47:46 -0700 Subject: SW2512 and pump problems [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.152921976-212058698-968855515@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1322197529-212058698-968957266@topica.com> Windy et all, "I could suggest a DC submersible pump, but with a 12V system, pressurizing, your choices are severely limited." Windy We still do a few systems a year that choose not to use a large inverter (or just can't afford the $ bucks for the big Trace). Typically these systems use a 1100 Watt Exeltech inverter (either 12 or 24 volt depending on the usual considerations. These systems normally do not use a lot of water (50 to 200 gallons per day). With a large pressure tank, 85 gallon is typical (31 gallon draw down at 20-40 psi range), the DC sub pumps work very well for many people. Windy sold a few different diaphragm type DC subs over the years and I have some people who still have a Cimarron quad 5000 in the well and working (on it's last legs I suspect) after seven years! I know the diaphragms must be going so I recently was in touch with the homeowners about doing a swap now so we won't have to do it in the middle of winter. So I gave them two options. A) Sun Rise Solar Sub 48 volt Model 5226, 3.1 gpm (system has 120 feet of head including the 92' in the pressure tank 166 watts power consumption (plus what % tacked on for converter/controller inefficiency Windy?). At 100 gallons per day this pump should run for 35 minutes therefore it will use, about, 100 watt hours per day. Compare this with a 1/3 hp ac sub pump at 4.5 gpm and 800 watts for 325 watt hours (with inverter factor of 10%). Any time we can save 225 Watt hours per day it is worth looking into. The Sun Rise (Dankoff Solar) is a piston type pump and it sells for $ 1,850 and needs a DC converter for this 12 volt battery system $ 340. So this deal is pricey but efficient. How long might this pump last down in the hole Windy? Option B) Shurflo 9300 plastic , diaphragm type 24vdc sub pump. Pumps slow at 1.68 gpm with 12 to 24v converter. But it has rebuild kits for the inevitable diaphragm replacement. I have customers going too long (4years+) between rebuilds with these even though the manufacturer tells us to check the diaphragms yearly. What do others see for longevity with these pumps? This pump will use, about, 80 watt hours for the 100 gallons per day. Cost is $695 plus converter at $ 325. I would also consider the Solarjack small DC subs from Kyocera. Was recently told that they are being redesigned and will be field rebuild able also. David Palumbo, IP&L - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From allan at positivenergy.com Thu Sep 14 15:48:47 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 12:48:47 -0700 Subject: SW2512 and pump problems [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1514403613-212058698-968960927@topica.com> David, Windy will probably have more to say in response to your referral to the SunRise, after he returns from the Flagstaff RE fair. To pump at full speed, the SunRise needs 24V to the converter to run at its 60V output, which you need for the 3.1 gpm you quoted. With a 12V battery input, (a jumper is removed in the converter), the pump runs at half speed of 1.5 gpm. At this pumping rate with a big (or multiple) pressure tanks, you could get by, but it means one fixture at a time once a bathtub has been filled--ok for a couple with conservative habits, but not the average home. Allan at +E -----Original Message----- From: David Palumbo, Independent Power & Light To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Date: Thursday, September 14, 2000 12:52 PM Subject: RE: SW2512 and pump problems [RE-wrenches] > >Windy et all, > >"I could suggest a DC submersible pump, but with a 12V system, >pressurizing, your choices are severely limited." Windy > > We still do a few systems a year that choose not to use a large inverter >(or just can't afford the $ bucks for the big Trace). Typically these >systems use a 1100 Watt Exeltech inverter (either 12 or 24 volt depending on >the usual considerations. > These systems normally do not use a lot of water (50 to 200 gallons per >day). With a large pressure tank, 85 gallon is typical (31 gallon draw down >at 20-40 psi range), the DC sub pumps work very well for many people. > Windy sold a few different diaphragm type DC subs over the years and I have >some people who still have a Cimarron quad 5000 in the well and working (on >it's last legs I suspect) after seven years! > I know the diaphragms must be going so I recently was in touch with the >homeowners about doing a swap now so we won't have to do it in the middle of >winter. So I gave them two options. > A) Sun Rise Solar Sub 48 volt Model 5226, 3.1 gpm (system has 120 feet of >head including the 92' in the pressure tank 166 watts power consumption >(plus what % tacked on for converter/controller inefficiency Windy?). At 100 >gallons per day this pump should run for 35 minutes therefore it will use, >about, 100 watt hours per day. Compare this with a 1/3 hp ac sub pump at 4.5 >gpm and 800 watts for 325 watt hours (with inverter factor of 10%). Any time >we can save 225 Watt hours per day it is worth looking into. > The Sun Rise (Dankoff Solar) is a piston type pump and it sells for $ 1,850 >and needs a DC converter for this 12 volt battery system $ 340. So this deal >is pricey but efficient. How long might this pump last down in the hole >Windy? > Option B) Shurflo 9300 plastic , diaphragm type 24vdc sub pump. Pumps slow >at 1.68 gpm with 12 to 24v converter. But it has rebuild kits for the >inevitable diaphragm replacement. I have customers going too long (4years+) >between rebuilds with these even though the manufacturer tells us to check >the diaphragms yearly. What do others see for longevity with these pumps? >This pump will use, about, 80 watt hours for the 100 gallons per day. Cost >is $695 plus converter at $ 325. > I would also consider the Solarjack small DC subs from Kyocera. Was >recently told that they are being redesigned and will be field rebuild able >also. > >David Palumbo, IP&L > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From allan at positivenergy.com Thu Sep 14 15:56:15 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 12:56:15 -0700 Subject: SW2512 and pump problems [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1122264763-951758591-968961375@topica.com> David, I'm also not sure that the $325 converter you mentioned for the 9300 will work in this application. If it's Shurflo's product, it's a controller for array-direct operation, switchable 12 or 24 volts. At 12V array-direct, the 9300 pumps at .78 gpm, so probably .6 on batteries. Maybe a 12-24 step-up converter would work. I have a customer about to try a 24V Dankoff Booster Pump on a 12V system, and Dan Pringle said it should work OK (done for voltage drop reasons on a long run). Any other wrenches tried voltage step-up on DC motor loads? Allan at the usual. -----Original Message----- From: David Palumbo, Independent Power & Light To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Date: Thursday, September 14, 2000 12:52 PM Subject: RE: SW2512 and pump problems [RE-wrenches] > >Windy et all, > >"I could suggest a DC submersible pump, but with a 12V system, >pressurizing, your choices are severely limited." Windy > > We still do a few systems a year that choose not to use a large inverter >(or just can't afford the $ bucks for the big Trace). Typically these >systems use a 1100 Watt Exeltech inverter (either 12 or 24 volt depending on >the usual considerations. > These systems normally do not use a lot of water (50 to 200 gallons per >day). With a large pressure tank, 85 gallon is typical (31 gallon draw down >at 20-40 psi range), the DC sub pumps work very well for many people. > Windy sold a few different diaphragm type DC subs over the years and I have >some people who still have a Cimarron quad 5000 in the well and working (on >it's last legs I suspect) after seven years! > I know the diaphragms must be going so I recently was in touch with the >homeowners about doing a swap now so we won't have to do it in the middle of >winter. So I gave them two options. > A) Sun Rise Solar Sub 48 volt Model 5226, 3.1 gpm (system has 120 feet of >head including the 92' in the pressure tank 166 watts power consumption >(plus what % tacked on for converter/controller inefficiency Windy?). At 100 >gallons per day this pump should run for 35 minutes therefore it will use, >about, 100 watt hours per day. Compare this with a 1/3 hp ac sub pump at 4.5 >gpm and 800 watts for 325 watt hours (with inverter factor of 10%). Any time >we can save 225 Watt hours per day it is worth looking into. > The Sun Rise (Dankoff Solar) is a piston type pump and it sells for $ 1,850 >and needs a DC converter for this 12 volt battery system $ 340. So this deal >is pricey but efficient. How long might this pump last down in the hole >Windy? > Option B) Shurflo 9300 plastic , diaphragm type 24vdc sub pump. Pumps slow >at 1.68 gpm with 12 to 24v converter. But it has rebuild kits for the >inevitable diaphragm replacement. I have customers going too long (4years+) >between rebuilds with these even though the manufacturer tells us to check >the diaphragms yearly. What do others see for longevity with these pumps? >This pump will use, about, 80 watt hours for the 100 gallons per day. Cost >is $695 plus converter at $ 325. > I would also consider the Solarjack small DC subs from Kyocera. Was >recently told that they are being redesigned and will be field rebuild able >also. > >David Palumbo, IP&L > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From econnect at snowcrest.net Thu Sep 14 22:30:49 2000 From: econnect at snowcrest.net (Bob-O Schultze, Electron Connection) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 19:30:49 -0700 Subject: Desulfaters? [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1961833458-212058698-968955941@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1961833458-212058698-968955941@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.391323082-212058698-968985049@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 1112 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jackwest at alaska.net Fri Sep 15 02:17:21 2000 From: jackwest at alaska.net (Jack West, Talkeetna AE) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 23:17:21 -0700 Subject: SW4024 charger cycling - SOLVED! [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.432343061-951758591-968704214@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1233296861-951758591-968781153@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1725155117-951758591-968998641@topica.com> Drake Chamberlin, Quicksilver Electrical wrote: > My guess is that the generator motor is wearing, and not as powerful as it > was. > Chuck, Another possible reason for diminished power from the genset is a dirty air cleaner or fuel filters. I've seen this several times. Dirty filters can prevent it from being able to carry a full load but it runs OK under lighter loads. Jack West - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From toddcory at jps.net Fri Sep 15 02:20:09 2000 From: toddcory at jps.net (Todd Cory, Bald Mt. Solar) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 23:20:09 -0700 Subject: Todd 75 amp charger [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1225557141-951758591-968998809@topica.com> Hello list, I have a customer that says his Todd 75 amp charger no longer works. He called the factory and basically they said they are "throw away's" and they don't fix em. I don't have the time to mess with it. Is there anyone out there familiar with these that is interested in doing a mail order repair? If so let me know. Thanks, Todd -- Todd Cory KE6SXS toddcory at jps.net Bald Mountain Solar P.O. Box 689 Mt. Shasta, Ca. 96067 (530) 926-1079 - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From jackwest at alaska.net Fri Sep 15 02:37:32 2000 From: jackwest at alaska.net (Jack West, Talkeetna AE) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 23:37:32 -0700 Subject: Voltage step up on DC pumps [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1122264763-951758591-968961375@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.501665246-951758591-968999852@topica.com> Hello Allen, I installed a Solar Converters voltage doubler on a SolarJack Q128(?) pump that was being operated battery direct on a 12VDC system. Customer had used this pump for several years with 2 large pressure tanks but complained about the slow recovery after heavy water usage, like laundry and bathing. Pump was putting out 1 gallon or less per minute operated at 12VDC nominal. After installing the voltage doubler (auto transformer/equalizer #EQ12/24-20) the pump output nearly doubled and customer satisfaction tripled. Cost was approximately $110.US. Trouble free for almost one year now. Jack West - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Fri Sep 15 02:40:06 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (R. Sparks Scott) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 23:40:06 -0700 Subject: Todd 75 amp charger [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1225557141-951758591-968998809@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2089908243-212058698-969000006@topica.com> Hi Todd; Yes, I repair Todds. Obviously, without actually seeing the unit, I can't give any kind of firm price, but here's the range of least-to-most expensive repairs: Parts for a typical failed unit can cost from $0 to 30+ dollars. Labor for a 75 amp charger would run between 45 and 90 dollars. None of this would be accurate in the event I find it has suffered a catastrophic failure and has burned circuit boards or transformers. In any case, I would give your customer a firm estimate of the costs of repair before doing any of the work. Shipping should be only about $6-12 via UPS ground service. Let me know if you are interested in sending it here for evaluation and I'll return a mail with my ship-to address. -S - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From global at sover.net Fri Sep 15 07:51:24 2000 From: global at sover.net (Jeffrey Wolfe, Global Resources) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 04:51:24 -0700 Subject: Desulfaters? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.444682407-212058698-969018684@topica.com> I heard that desulphating action takes place when batteries are at full voltage, or being trickle-charged at full -- can anyone confirm this? Windy, You're correct on this, at least for the brand we sell. They do not "turn on" unitl the voltage is over 13.5 (or multiple). Some units do stay on continuously, drawing power. We have not done anything like the extensive test you've proposed, and we do not push this equipment hard. Thus, we have not had a lot of installs. but out of the dozen or so, we have two that are very convinced that the unit brought the batteries back from a badly sulfated condition. (low SG turned to high SG over time.) We have one "unsolicited testimonial if anyone is interested. We have been using the CanPulse unit by SolarTech, which is also the most expensive desulphator I've seen, (does this make it better?) but the manufacturer seemed to have better testimonials and backup data (electron microscope photos) than others. Jeff ---------- From: Windy Dankoff, Dankoff Solar[SMTP:windy at dankoffsolar.com] Reply To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 6:49 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Re: Desulfaters? [RE-wrenches] Wrenches, Here's my proposal of how to test a desulphator for actual recovery of battery capacity. If this works, then I WILL BELIEVE. Get 4 obviously sulphated batteries (like golf cart batts that are starting to swell and get hard on the ends). The batteries should all be closely identical in condition (measure each cell with hydrometer) and in working condition, however reduced in capacity. Put them in series either in a working (or demo) system, or on a trickle charge. Connect them in series for 24V. Charge full, and do a discharge test to measure AH (just use a known load X time, until hydrometer indicates low). They should show siginificantly less than the rated capacity, for this experiment to be useful. Wire a desulphator accross HALF of the bank, at 12V. Now, one set gets the desulphating action, and the other acts as the experimental control. No matter how the batteries are used, or not used, they all see the same conditions except for the desulphating action. I heard that desulphating action takes place when batteries are at full voltage, or being trickle-charged at full -- can anyone confirm this? After months of time, take comparative voltage measurements under current. Desulphated batteries should show less internal resistance than the control batteries. Thus, under charge, they should show lower voltage than the control. Under discharge, they should show higher voltage -- more stable, in other words. If that evidence shows up, do a discharge test and check them all with hydrometer. If the desulph. batteries are better, they will show a higher hydrometer reading than the others. I tried this with the desulph device that was distributed by an Oregon company about 8 years ago. Nothing happened after 6 months. Then, the manufacturer went out of business and the product was discredited. (also, I cycled the batteries a lot, before I heard that they should be topped off for the action to work.) I believe that the desulphator principle may be sound. I hope somebody else will try a test like this and see if we all can believe. Anyone? Windy - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From global at sover.net Fri Sep 15 07:51:28 2000 From: global at sover.net (Jeffrey Wolfe, Global Resources) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 04:51:28 -0700 Subject: Desulfaters? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.461240343-951758591-969018688@topica.com> Roy, We will donate either a used 24 V unit, or a new 12 V unit. (CanPuls Charge Partner, by SolarTech). We are not the manufacturer, but heck, if you'll donate the time... I assume we'll get equal rights to use the data? Jeff Jeffery D. Wolfe, P.E. Global Resource Options, LLP A Woman-Owned Vermont Limited Liability Partnership 4 Kibling Hill Road P.O. Box 51 Strafford, VT 05072 802/765-4632 802/765-9983 (Fax) global at sover.net www.globalresourceoptions.com ---------- From: Roy Butler, Four Winds RE[SMTP:roy at four-winds-energy.com] Reply To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 7:26 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Re: Desulfaters? [RE-wrenches] Hi Windy, It just so happens that I still have (and use) 8 Crown golf cart batteries I had installed on my own RE system in '97. Since then I've used all 8 in rotation for various shows and events. I've recently equalized and tested them and found them to have an average AH rating of 155. I'd love to do the test you mentioned...sounds like a fair test for both the manufacturer and the consumer. Any desulfator manufacturers out there willing to donate a unit in order to settle this question once and for all??? I'm willing to donate my time and batteries in return....whaddya say? Roy Butler Four Winds RE Arkport, NY www.four-winds-energy.com - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From roy at four-winds-energy.com Fri Sep 15 09:43:04 2000 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler, Four Winds RE) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 06:43:04 -0700 Subject: Desulfaters? [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.461240343-951758591-969018688@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1393559968-212058698-969025384@topica.com> Hi Jeff, That's a real nice offer...I'd love to test a 24 volt unit. And of course you'd get equal data rights! And a say in how this would be tested....let me know how you wish this to be done. I've heard good things about the CanPulse units...have seriously considered offering them to my customers...would feel a LOT better having actually used and tested one first! Thanks, Roy Butler Four Winds Renewable Energy Co. 8902 Route 46 Arkport, NY 14807 607-324-9747 "Jeffrey Wolfe, Global Resources" wrote: > We will donate either a used 24 V unit, or a new 12 V unit. (CanPuls Charge > Partner, by SolarTech). We are not the manufacturer, but heck, if you'll > donate the time... - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From mike at atlanticsolar.com Fri Sep 15 15:03:20 2000 From: mike at atlanticsolar.com (Mike Howell) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 12:03:20 -0700 Subject: Fw: Desulfaters? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.442338635-212058698-969044600@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 3410 bytes Desc: not available URL: From i2p at aol.com Fri Sep 15 19:58:44 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (Don Loweburg, Offline) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 16:58:44 -0700 Subject: Yago review [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1040918807-951758591-969062324@topica.com> Hi Ian, I believe this article should not be run. Instead of helping the mailorder customer understand and program the SW inverter, the article will end up confusing or even worse convincing a reader they understand the topic. The underlying goal or pupose implied by the author is "to get the most from my solar". I've heard this myself from customers who have botched the setting in this attempt. The differing strategies are presened without any detail to system specifics. Some statements are wrong; ie LBX, "This mode is the most common inverter mode for offgrid solar homes." (Page one -LBX Mode) Another wrong statement; page one under Sell Mode, "All site-generated power passes through the inverter and into the utility grid, not the home." This would only happen if the inverter"s output were connected on the utility side of the meter. I don't think this is what we are talking about. At this point, I stopped making specific notes and just read the article. I suspect you had the same feeling I did. This article will not help anyone. Best, Don - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solar at eagle-access.net Sat Sep 16 13:25:24 2000 From: solar at eagle-access.net (Drake Chamberlin, Quicksilver Electrical) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 10:25:24 -0700 Subject: SW4024 charger cycling - SOLVED! [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.432343061-951758591-968704214@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1233296861-951758591-968781153@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1725155117-951758591-968998641@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.901404047-212058698-969125124@topica.com> Hi Jack, That is true. Any interference with the power output of the gen set could create a situation where the battery charging output of the inverter might need to be adjusted down. A tune up or decarbonization might also be needed. A customer recently had difficulties that required his Onan to be taken apart and decarbonized. Several years ago, on a service call, an Onan kept dying out when trying to charge batteries and run a forced air furnace. It was a system with too many loads for the solar, and the generator ran constantly. (In my opinion, a forced air furnace is the death knell of a solar system). The generator ran for many hours each day, mainly to supply the 700 to 800 VA blower load. They kept adding more modules and more batteries, but the furnace blower was just an out of balance load. The gen set finally got too weak to keep running, when the loads were applied. Drake "Jack West, Talkeetna AE" wrote: > Drake Chamberlin, Quicksilver Electrical wrote: > > > My guess is that the generator motor is wearing, and not as powerful as it > > was. > > > > Chuck, > > Another possible reason for diminished power from the genset is a dirty air > cleaner or fuel filters. > I've seen this several times. Dirty filters can prevent it from being able to > carry a full load but it runs OK under lighter loads. > > Jack West > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solarjon at netshel.net Sun Sep 17 14:53:18 2000 From: solarjon at netshel.net (Jonathan Hill) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 11:53:18 -0700 Subject: 12 VDC battery charger [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.647480628-212058698-968268001@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1198498443-212058698-967691854@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1018616620-212058698-968267427@topica.com> <0.1300002502.647480628-212058698-968268001@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1810795849-951758591-969216798@topica.com> >Todd- We sell a good one that runs off 12 volt, has a lighter plug, and charges up to 4 D,C, or AA. Cost is $20. Call us for more information at 888-ON-SOLAR Jon Hill, Sierra Solar Systems >Hi list members, > >I am looking for a 12 volt battery charger. I have an old one that >was carried by >Radio Shack years ago. Charges up to 4 D, C, AA ni-cads. The unit >has a cigarette >lighter type of plug. If anyone knows where to get something like >this it would be >greatly appreciated. > >Todd Cory > > > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics ----------------- Sierra Solar Systems 109-N Argall Way Nevada City, CA 95959 tech info and foreign orders: (530) 265-8441 order line: (800) 51-SOLAR (US only) FAX: (530) 265-6151 e-mail: world wide web: Because of the high volume of e-mail to which I respond, please leave _all_ of the previous message (unless it's unbearable) in your reply so I can better remember your original message. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solarjon at netshel.net Sun Sep 17 14:53:21 2000 From: solarjon at netshel.net (Jonathan Hill) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 11:53:21 -0700 Subject: installer's list [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.305679282-212058698-968277452@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1485865435-951758591-968189239@topica.com> <0.1300002502.305679282-212058698-968277452@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.998660694-951758591-969216801@topica.com> >Kirk- Many of us (not necessarily "big box solar marts") sell to people out of our area and these people need help with their installation that the out-of-area dealers may not be able to provide. Not everyone buys locally, though I admit that it would be a good idea. Also, many dealer/installers are happy to do installations even where they didn't sell the equipment. A list of these installers would be helpful for dealers and customers alike. Jon Hill, Sierra solar systems >Hello all, > >1) I think that having a installer list is a great idea, but I'd >like to call it >a dealer / installer list. It is safe to assume that most of us >would prefer not >to install equipment we didn't sell to the customer (and perhaps wouldn't >recommend), especially if purchased from some big box solar mart. The HP add / >list should encourage working with (from start to finish) and buying from the >wrench who will be doing the install. > >2) The HP add may not be able to accommodate all who want to be listed, due to >space limitations. What then? > >3) Don, please tell me how to join IPP again. Thanks. > >regards, > >Kirk > > >"Don Loweburg, Offline" wrote: > > > Wrenches and IPP members, > > > > Michael tells me it would be easy to set up a spreadsheet listing >on the IPP > > web page. Since Ive only heard positve responces, it's a go. > > > > There has been some discussion about qualifications. Here's what I think > > should be done. Besides company name, address, contact info, we >have a field > > for years of experience installing, certification, licensing, or >contractor > > status. In other words we don't set standards but we do give the potential > > customer full information. They are responsible for choosing. We may also > > include an IPP disclaimer. In addition we encourage customer >feedback. If IPP > > gets negative responses about any work done or other practices by our > > refferals, then IPP has the option of removing a listing. Of >course IPP would > > contact both parties seeking resolution first. > > > > I will discuss the wrenchs list in the next IPP column. I also >want to run a > > display add in the next Homepower. IPP logo with something to the > > effect..Need a Wrench > > > > To do the add I need a few new members (thank you to who have >newly joined) > > and of course any re-ups are welcome. > > > > As a formality I need to run this by the board. What say you Bob O and > > Richard? > > > > Understanding that we need to keep this simple ,are there suggestions or > > ommisions on my part. > > > > Don Loweburg > > IPP > > > > - - - - - - - > > To send a message: > > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > > > The archive of previous messages: > > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > www.homepower.com > > > > For info contact list moderator by email: > > michael.welch at homepower.com > > ___________________________________________________________ > > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics ----------------- Sierra Solar Systems 109-N Argall Way Nevada City, CA 95959 tech info and foreign orders: (530) 265-8441 order line: (800) 51-SOLAR (US only) FAX: (530) 265-6151 e-mail: world wide web: Because of the high volume of e-mail to which I respond, please leave _all_ of the previous message (unless it's unbearable) in your reply so I can better remember your original message. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solarjon at netshel.net Sun Sep 17 14:53:30 2000 From: solarjon at netshel.net (Jonathan Hill) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 11:53:30 -0700 Subject: installer's list [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.308324637-212058698-968278807@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1485865435-951758591-968189239@topica.com> <0.1300002502.308324637-212058698-968278807@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1723506790-212058698-969216810@topica.com> >Michael- The add need not contain the dealer/installer names, just the IPP website. Jon HIll, Sierra Solar Systems >Kirk Herander, VT Solar wrote at 02:57 PM 09/06/2000 -0700: > > >1) I think that having a installer list is a great idea, but I'd >like to call it > >a dealer / installer list. It is safe to assume that most of us >would prefer not > >to install equipment we didn't sell to the customer (and perhaps wouldn't > >recommend), especially if purchased from some big box solar mart. >The HP add / > >list should encourage working with (from start to finish) and >buying from the > >wrench who will be doing the install. > >Might I suggest the term "installing dealers" since it is regularly >used in the industry. Not sure who to credit, but I first heard it >from Richard Perez. > > >2) The HP add may not be able to accommodate all who want to be >listed, due to space limitations. What then? > >Ad size is the question here if the goal really is to list them all, >and my guess is that Richard will make it work. > >That said, I am not convinced it is a good idea to list them all in >the ad. It might be best to describe the resource and how to get it >-- 1) via the i2p.org web site, 2) by an autoresponse mail message >that sends the list within an email message when an interested party >sends a message to, for example RE_Installing_Dealers at i2p.org, and >3) via snail mail at the IPP postal address. > >Michael Welch > >------------------------ >"Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a >lot of scum on top." > > Edward Abbey > >Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com > Associate Editor, Home Power magazine > Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance > (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 > > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics ----------------- Sierra Solar Systems 109-N Argall Way Nevada City, CA 95959 tech info and foreign orders: (530) 265-8441 order line: (800) 51-SOLAR (US only) FAX: (530) 265-6151 e-mail: world wide web: Because of the high volume of e-mail to which I respond, please leave _all_ of the previous message (unless it's unbearable) in your reply so I can better remember your original message. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunwise at win.bright.net Mon Sep 18 11:25:18 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (Kurt Nelson, SunWise) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 08:25:18 -0700 Subject: KWH Meters [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1234951599-951758591-969290718@topica.com> Does anyone know the accuracy of the standard KWH meter of the type plugged into meter bases all across the country? I decided to put one on my frig and purchased one the A.E.E. that was suposedly 240vac or 120vac. I could tell right away that it was not reading properly (perhaps half actualy KW's). I called the re-manufacturer (Hialeah Co of Haleah, Fl.) and they said that the modified square wave should not be an issue for the meter, but that I needed a two wire 120 meter rather than the three wire 240 meter AEE was selling (even though I had it wired up correctly for 120 operation). I purchased 8 of their 120v, 2 wire meters and they seem to be operating fine (accuracy?). Bigger questions... what about the accuracy of all those grid-tied systems out there that are feeding back into a three wire 240v meter and doing so "unbalanced?" at 120vac only? Also on perhaps an interesting note, I have been putting a lot of these 120v/2wire meters on systems in a variety of applications and noted that while my old U series Trace sleeps fine with the meter, SW series inverters have to have their search bumped up to 32 watts, as the inverters stay up at a 16 watt search setting with one of these meters on line (meters is listed as being 2 watts). Any experience with these meters out there??? Final word.... In single meter grid-tied systems, just because the (disk/Stator/I'm verbally challanged) rotates backwards does not necessarily mean that the accumulative dials will also rotate backwards. Some utilities actually do use meters that have to be unratcheted. Kurt Nelson - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Mon Sep 18 18:19:47 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 15:19:47 -0700 Subject: KWH Meters [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.3482504-212058698-969315587@topica.com> Kurt, At my last house which was grid only (no inverter, no solar PV, but SDHW) I had the utility come out and check my meter. They tested it at high load and low load and it tested to over 99% and the in-accuracy was in my favor. It was a standard meter that you see at most any residence. Around here the utilities are required to annually check a % of their meters but I don't know the accuracy requirements but one would guess they would be right on. If your profits are based counting kWh's it's in your favor to be very accurate. In my non-solar life I've changed out a few hundred 60 amp services but I have found only a few that only measured kwh on one leg. People loose lights in half of the house and call me. I get there and find the neutral is still bonded to ground and the meter isn't turning but plenty of loads are on. Of course, the meter is screwed up so I call the utility and they come put a new meter in and everything is fine. The only meters I have ever seen that weren't working just like they were supposed to required immediate attention. Travis Creswell Ozark Solar ---------- >From: "Kurt Nelson, SunWise" >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Subject: KWH Meters [RE-wrenches] >Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000, 10:25 AM > >Does anyone know the accuracy of the standard KWH meter of the type plugged >into meter bases all across the country? - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Mon Sep 18 18:21:39 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 15:21:39 -0700 Subject: Desulfaters? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.962689875-951758591-969315699@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 1632 bytes Desc: not available URL: From phil at positivenergy.com Tue Sep 19 10:25:52 2000 From: phil at positivenergy.com (Phil Undercuffler) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 07:25:52 -0700 Subject: Desulfator test [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1833857772-951758591-969373552@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 2035 bytes Desc: not available URL: From i2p at aol.com Tue Sep 19 16:54:33 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (Don Loweburg, Offline) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 13:54:33 -0700 Subject: installer's list [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.504272005-951758591-969396873@topica.com> In a message dated 09/17/2000 11:53:47 AM Pacific Daylight Time, solarjon at netshel.net writes: << The add need not contain the dealer/installer names, just the IPP website. Jon HIll, Sierra Solar Systems >> Right. I'll post the paragraph to appear in IPP 80 announcing the list and ad. I think it covers the details brought up by various wrenches on the list. I'll post it tomorrow. Don - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ellison at gisco.net Tue Sep 19 17:08:42 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison, Alternative Energy Systems) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 14:08:42 -0700 Subject: Flagstaff energy fair [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1293022091-212058698-969397722@topica.com> I just heard that a tornado came through the energy fair site in Flagstaff, Arizona and did a bunch of damage, not in the least it put Steve Wilke (Bergey Wind Power, sales manager) in the hospital, injuries unknown. Another person was also seriously injured however I am unaware of the name at the present time. Bob Ellison - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From phil at positivenergy.com Tue Sep 19 18:05:11 2000 From: phil at positivenergy.com (Phil Undercuffler) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 15:05:11 -0700 Subject: Another Looking for Work [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.455941549-951758591-969401111@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 1449 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kurtj12 at aol.com Tue Sep 19 21:22:05 2000 From: kurtj12 at aol.com (kurtj12 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 18:22:05 -0700 Subject: Another Looking for Work [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1206587527-212058698-969412925@topica.com> i highly reccomend dara. kurt johnson the solar guys - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From i2p at aol.com Tue Sep 19 22:06:37 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (Don Loweburg, Offline) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 19:06:37 -0700 Subject: Flagstaff energy fair [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2147224989-951758591-969415597@topica.com> In a message dated 09/19/2000 2:09:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ellison at gisco.net writes: << Another person was also seriously injured however I am unaware of the name at the present time. >> Rudy from Kyocera was hurt badly and will be out for some time. Steve also from Kyocera was hurt. Nasty incident. My best wishes to all that were injured and lost property. Don - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From i2p at aol.com Tue Sep 19 22:38:08 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (Don Loweburg, Offline) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 19:38:08 -0700 Subject: installer's list [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.644942599-212058698-969417488@topica.com> Wrenches; What you see below will appear in Homepower #80. Understand this will not hit the street for about 2 months plus. If you think it misses the point or is wrong, please help me out to set it straight. Many have asked for a copy of the IPP logo. I am getting one for download from Ben Root. When I get it,I'll let you know. I'll also be working with Ben on the ad layout and will share that when I have a clue as to what I'm doing. Best' Don New IPP web site IPP has a new web address (i2p.org). Along with a new domain name and address, the site has been revamped and updated. The site also has a new feature. IPP will host a national list of dealer-installers. Along with dealer location and contact information, will be a listing of qualifications. IPP dealer-installers belong to a network of "wrenches" established during the last year for the purpose of exchanging technical and product information. The IPP referral service is an idea developed by the wrenches, initially, as a referral service among members. The decision to offer the service to the public was based on two reasons: 1) Potential customers may not know a local dealer-installer, 2) Self-installers purchase equipment elsewhere and get into trouble on the installation. All dealer-installers prefer to do "whole systems", meaning they are responsible for the design, installation and sale of the equipment. Having done the whole job, a full system warranty can be offered. However this is not always the case. By offering installation and repair service, dealer-installers have the opportunity to establish goodwill and support quality system installs. Customers should realize that the "whole system" approach will yield the best value and cost less than buying discounted cartons of product and paying for an installation or repair service. IPP does not endorse individual listings but does invite customer feedback, both positive and negative. Listings with multiple complaints will be removed. See our display ad in this issue. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From telliot at wagonmaker.com Wed Sep 20 00:25:06 2000 From: telliot at wagonmaker.com (Tom Elliot) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:25:06 -0700 Subject: Flagstaff energy fair [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.2147224989-951758591-969415597@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1707346425-951758591-969423906@topica.com> Rudy has a broken vertebrae in his back, he was the most seriously injured. Steve Wilke has a broken scapula (shoulder blade). They were the two with the worst injuries. It was amazing that no one was killed. Had there been more people there the toll would have been much higher. I was there and in another tent when it happened, very scary and "we're not in Kansas anymore, Toto" feeling. Lots of damage to the fairgrounds but the Fair went on in another area of the grounds. At one point there were sheets of corrugated roofing being blown hundreds of feet in the air like tissue paper. I'll have pictures up on my website soon of the damage. Tom Elliot Guffey Energy Works Solar Energy Education http://www.wagonmaker.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Loweburg, Offline" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 8:06 PM Subject: Re: Flagstaff energy fair [RE-wrenches] > In a message dated 09/19/2000 2:09:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > ellison at gisco.net writes: > > << Another person was also seriously injured however I am unaware of the name > at the present time. > >> > Rudy from Kyocera was hurt badly and will be out for some time. Steve also > from Kyocera was hurt. Nasty incident. My best wishes to all that were > injured and lost property. > > Don > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From grateful at boone.net Thu Sep 21 11:57:34 2000 From: grateful at boone.net (Scott Suddreth, Rock Castle Solar) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 08:57:34 -0700 Subject: mystery fan [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.399136466-951758591-968870418@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1089702362-951758591-968876287@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1602947319-212058698-969551854@topica.com> Wrenches, I have a client who has a small pv system that I designed and installed (320 watts of pv, 2500 watt TRace DR, Four HCTrojan l-16s). The system is a "college student package" that our company began offering for students who wanted a sytstem that is self contained (most of the equipment in a freestanding box) so they could use it to supplement their energy usage in the small college apartments and unplug and take it with them when they move which is once a year. This client moved to a small farmhouse and put his "power box" in a small shed beside the house to store until he got settled in. During this transitional period a freak rain/flood occured which literally drenched his system(not a quality shed) (our boxes are not built to be waterproof). So i went over the next day and opend the box and everything was indeed wet, not drowned but definetly wet. I pulled all of the covers off the equipment and let it dry in the sun for the next two days afterwhich i fired the 250 disconnect up and powered on the inverter and everything worked fine. ( we all sighed a relief and were thankful for the ruggedness of the equipment - perhaps too soon) Anyway the client used the systems for a few months off and on and everything seemed fine. Just recently we discovered the cooling fan in the inverter cycling on and off while the inverter was OFF. It hadn't been used for a week and yet the fans were running and the three lights on the front of 2500DR were flashing red (this only happened for a brief moment). I have tried every ajustment in the inverter, charge controller, the whole system that i can think of but the only thing that affects the fans is shutting off the 250 disconnect. The inverter seems to still work fine when cut on and used but that darn fan starts cycling on and off (maybe 2minutes on 2 seconds off) as soon as power is turn on the 250 disconnect. I am baffled but figured that somebody else would might have a clue. How about it? thanks, Scott Suddreth grateful at boone.net Rock Castle Solar, Inc Boone, North Carolina www.rcsolar.com Installer - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From allan at positivenergy.com Thu Sep 21 20:30:54 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 17:30:54 -0700 Subject: mystery fan [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1077146973-212058698-969582654@topica.com> Scott, Water is the big nemesis of inverters. We put a small DR-based Y2K system in a buried culvert in a client's yard. Winter cold caused the steel lid to condense and occasionally drip: one drop in the inverter and we sent it back to Trace for a $300 repair bill, not under warranty. Another client lost her SW relay control board the same way--this one not our fault, thank God...What you're describing sounds similar: it'sa senditin. Allan @+E ----Original Message----- From: Scott Suddreth, Rock Castle Solar To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Date: Thursday, September 21, 2000 10:02 AM Subject: mystery fan [RE-wrenches] >Wrenches, > I have a client who has a small pv system that I designed and >installed (320 watts of pv, 2500 watt TRace DR, Four HCTrojan l-16s). The >system is a "college student package" that our company began offering for >students who wanted a sytstem that is self contained (most of the equipment >in a freestanding box) so they could use it to supplement their energy usage >in the small college apartments and unplug and take it with them when they >move which is once a year. This client moved to a small farmhouse and put >his "power box" in a small shed beside the house to store until he got >settled in. During this transitional period a freak rain/flood occured which >literally drenched his system(not a quality shed) (our boxes are not built >to be waterproof). So i went over the next day and opend the box and >everything was indeed wet, not drowned but definetly wet. I pulled all of >the covers off the equipment and let it dry in the sun for the next two days >afterwhich i fired the 250 disconnect up and powered on the inverter and >everything worked fine. ( we all sighed a relief and were thankful for the >ruggedness of the equipment - perhaps too soon) Anyway the client used the >systems for a few months off and on and everything seemed fine. Just >recently we discovered the cooling fan in the inverter cycling on and off >while the inverter was OFF. It hadn't been used for a week and yet the fans >were running and the three lights on the front of 2500DR were flashing red >(this only happened for a brief moment). I have tried every ajustment in the >inverter, charge controller, the whole system that i can think of but the >only thing that affects the fans is shutting off the 250 disconnect. The >inverter seems to still work fine when cut on and used but that darn fan >starts cycling on and off (maybe 2minutes on 2 seconds off) as soon as power >is turn on the 250 disconnect. I am baffled but figured that somebody else >would might have a clue. How about it? > >thanks, > >Scott Suddreth >grateful at boone.net >Rock Castle Solar, Inc >Boone, North Carolina >www.rcsolar.com >Installer > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cvsolar at aol.com Thu Sep 21 22:24:41 2000 From: cvsolar at aol.com (John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 19:24:41 -0700 Subject: Fwd: solar info. [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.453965422-951758591-969589481@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/mixed Size: 1236 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Fri Sep 22 00:06:06 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (R. Sparks Scott) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 21:06:06 -0700 Subject: mystery fan [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1602947319-212058698-969551854@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.399136466-951758591-968870418@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1089702362-951758591-968876287@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.690488152-951758591-969595566@topica.com> Scott; I would not say that all is lost, or that you should automatically send the inverter back to the factory. Water, all by itself is an insulator. If it wasn't, all of the electrical grid high tension lines would short out every time it rains. What is a problem when electronics gets wet is two fold: Contamination and Corrosion. As one who has resurrected many a broadcast mixing console which has had coffee and cola spilled into the guts, let me tell you that your situation is much less difficult than this. I usually don't get called until the console quits working because the acid in the beverage has begun to electroplate the insides of the gear into a solid block of metal. The solution is actually quite simple, take it apart and give it a bath! Hold the printed circuit board under warm flowing water and scrub the hell out of it with an old, clean toothbrush, making sure to get any gristly bits out from under component legs, etc. The next step is quite important! Have a plentiful supply of clean compressed air, and blow all of the water that you can out of and off of the board. Once this is done, and as an optional step, use a tech chemical such as Blue Shower to hose down the board to remove any grease or trapped water. Then use a hair dryer or heat gun (carefully) to thoroughly dry the board. Before re-assembly, check all connections and components for evidence of corrosion of any kind, seat any socketed IC's by pressing down on them firmly, and put it all back together. OK, that sounds simple, but here is the stuff that you DON'T want to get wet: Any transformers, fans, displays switches or open potentiometers. Obviously, any water that gets trapped in the high voltage side of an inverter is going to be more dangerous than a run-away cooling fan, so use caution when cleaning there. If you do all of this and it still doesn't work properly, then consider calling the factory to get an MRA. It isn't going to be covered by warranty anyway, and unless your water has more minerals and crud than is already present from the leaking roof incident, you probably won't do the inverter any harm. Don't tell Allan, but I did this to his Todd just before I sent it back to him after I repaired it. Where do you guys get that fine dust anyway? If the thought of mucking about with water on your electronic equipment scares you too much, find an electronic assembly/repair facility and see if you can convince them to toss your circuit boards into their ultrasonic cleaning tank. It probably won't work and better than the toothbrush, but it will cost more. Also consider that the fan problem is unrelated to the water problem. Maybe you should try hosing down a second system to see if the problem duplicates? -S - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From wrmiller at slonet.org Fri Sep 22 13:09:25 2000 From: wrmiller at slonet.org (William Miller) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 10:09:25 -0700 Subject: installer's list [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.644942599-212058698-969417488@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1781486547-951758591-969642565@topica.com> Dear Colleagues: I'm not sure I agree with the emphasis on dealing installers. Looking at the work quality and experience level of local dealer-installers, I find a mixed bag, including some down right dangerous installations. I am not a dealer but a very quality and reliability oriented installer with many large systems in my portfolio. My experience is that installing dealers often can't concentrate on both ends of the business at the same time, so one or both areas suffer. If you editorialize in either direction, your going to offend someone, so I'd suggest dropping that approach. I'd suggest instead presenting a list of dealers and/or installers and let the consumer decide after contacting "listees" whether they'd prefer one stop shopping or picking the best from both trades. Respectfully, William Miller At 07:38 PM 9/19/00 -0700, you wrote: >Wrenches; > >What you see below will appear in Homepower #80. Understand this will not hit >the street for about 2 months plus. If you think it misses the point or is >wrong, please help me out to set it straight. > >Many have asked for a copy of the IPP logo. I am getting one for download >from Ben Root. When I get it,I'll let you know. I'll also be working with Ben >on the ad layout and will share that when I have a clue as to what I'm doing. >Best' >Don > >New IPP web site >IPP has a new web address (i2p.org). Along with a new domain name and >address, the site has been revamped and updated. The site also has a new >feature. IPP will host a national list of dealer-installers. Along with >dealer location and contact information, will be a listing of qualifications. >IPP dealer-installers belong to a network of "wrenches" established during >the last year for the purpose of exchanging technical and product >information. The IPP referral service is an idea developed by the wrenches, >initially, as a referral service among members. The decision to offer the >service to the public was based on two reasons: 1) Potential customers may >not know a local dealer-installer, 2) Self-installers purchase equipment >elsewhere and get into trouble on the installation. All dealer-installers >prefer to do "whole systems", meaning they are responsible for the design, >installation and sale of the equipment. Having done the whole job, a full >system warranty can be offered. However this is not always the case. By >offering installation and repair service, dealer-installers have the >opportunity to establish goodwill and support quality system installs. >Customers should realize that the "whole system" approach will yield the best >value and cost less than buying discounted cartons of product and paying for >an installation or repair service. IPP does not endorse individual listings >but does invite customer feedback, both positive and negative. Listings with >multiple complaints will be removed. See our display ad in this issue. > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > __________________________________________________________________ William Miller SLO Communications: Communications and Power Systems Consulting Chief Engineer, KCBX: NPR and PRI for San Luis Obispo and Santa Barbara PO Box 50, Santa Margarita, CA 93453 Voice :805-438-5600 Fax: 805-438-4607 VMail: 805-546-4875 email: wrmiller at slonet.org License No. C-10-773985 _____________________________________________________________ Compatibility: Word processor: WP7, Word 7 Spreadsheet: Quatro Pro 7, Excel 5 CAD: Microstation 95, DXF, Autocad V12 DWG, Visio 4.1T _____________________________________________________________ "I stand by all the misstatements that I've made." Dan Quayle __________________________________________________________________ - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunwise at win.bright.net Fri Sep 22 13:30:58 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (Kurt Nelson, SunWise) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 10:30:58 -0700 Subject: installer's list [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1781486547-951758591-969642565@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.10827953-212058698-969643858@topica.com> William Miller wrote: > > Dear Colleagues: > > I'm not sure I agree with the emphasis on dealing installers. Looking at > the work quality and experience level of local dealer-installers, I find a > mixed bag, including some down right dangerous installations. I am not a > dealer but a very quality and reliability oriented installer with many > large systems in my portfolio. My experience is that installing dealers > often can't concentrate on both ends of the business at the same time, so > one or both areas suffer. > > Greetings William, I'm not sure I understand how you can be a quailty and reliability oriented installer only, without putting the whole deal together. Don't you find yourself on site with incompatable or missing parts, substandard materials, and systems woefully lacking in the design component. And, if you are designing and spec'ing all the equipment, why not complete the sale and then you can be sure it is all on site. Kurt Nelson - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From wrmiller at slonet.org Fri Sep 22 17:10:31 2000 From: wrmiller at slonet.org (William Miller) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 14:10:31 -0700 Subject: installer's list [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.10827953-212058698-969643858@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1781486547-951758591-969642565@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1979676651-212058698-969657031@topica.com> Kurt: Good questions: Before I do an installation I review the equipment list and if I find errors or omissions, I notify the client. If they can't or won't get the right stuff I either disclaim the results or refuse to do the installation. I provide conduit, wire, circuit breakers, etc. I generally don't do the load calculations as I'm not that experienced with that task. I hope for a good sales outfit to do that, and I've been lucky in that regard as most sales locally come from Pacific Energy, a very knowledgeable shop. I'd rather concentrate on doing top notch work and not worry about sales tax, manufacturer relations, storefront, etc., etc. This is just one approach but it's working great as the installations are passing inspection first time, a pleasure to look at and I rarely hear from my clients with problems. William Miller At 10:30 AM 9/22/00 -0700, you wrote: >William Miller wrote: >> >> Dear Colleagues: >> >> I'm not sure I agree with the emphasis on dealing installers. Looking at >> the work quality and experience level of local dealer-installers, I find a >> mixed bag, including some down right dangerous installations. I am not a >> dealer but a very quality and reliability oriented installer with many >> large systems in my portfolio. My experience is that installing dealers >> often can't concentrate on both ends of the business at the same time, so >> one or both areas suffer. >> >> Greetings William, > >I'm not sure I understand how you can be a quailty and reliability >oriented installer only, without putting the whole deal together. Don't >you find yourself on site with incompatable or missing parts, >substandard materials, and systems woefully lacking in the design >component. And, if you are designing and spec'ing all the equipment, >why not complete the sale and then you can be sure it is all on site. > >Kurt Nelson > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > __________________________________________________________________ William Miller SLO Communications: Communications and Power Systems Consulting Chief Engineer, KCBX: NPR and PRI for San Luis Obispo and Santa Barbara PO Box 50, Santa Margarita, CA 93453 Voice :805-438-5600 Fax: 805-438-4607 VMail: 805-546-4875 email: wrmiller at slonet.org License No. C-10-773985 _____________________________________________________________ Compatibility: Word processor: WP7, Word 7 Spreadsheet: Quatro Pro 7, Excel 5 CAD: Microstation 95, DXF, Autocad V12 DWG, Visio 4.1T _____________________________________________________________ "I stand by all the misstatements that I've made." Dan Quayle __________________________________________________________________ - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Fri Sep 22 17:31:02 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 14:31:02 -0700 Subject: installer's list [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1228911916-951758591-969658262@topica.com> My vote is with Kurt. Good job Kurt, you hit the nail on the head. I couldn't say it any better but I am going to keep typing anyway. People who install RE equipment should also be dealers and the emphasis should be on installing dealers. How can we ask manufacturers to stand behind their equipment if its installed by people who aren't savvy enough to run a real business. Big Soap Box Oratory follows, so feel free to delete now. I have had the opposite experience about people who only install. Somebody has to try to install these as bad as the ones I've seen. Mistakes a 1st month apprentice electrician wouldn't make. The only reason I even heard about them was they had quit working (or never worked) and the "installers" phone along with them. The customer was so desperate they called me and apologized all over themselves for not buying everything from me and having me install it but "could I come out tomorrow and fix it". So I move my schedule all around just so someone in my service area doesn't end up hating solar and telling all their friends what a joke solar is and that people who are in the business are criminals. I went and looked at one system and told the customer that was so bad I couldn't stand to look at it. I told the customer the only way I was working on it was to start all over. The "installer" had wired the AC input to the AC Output for starters and all the customer wanted me to do was to hook the (just back from Trace) inverter back up. I walked away from that with my pride intact and the inverter still in the box. The fly by night "installers" around here have set solar back so far it's ... well I'm going to stop. No offense intended William, but I have had to clean up some real messes from people who "did solar for years out in California". No offense intended to any CA Wrenches that just seems to be a catch phrase here in the Ozarks. Solar needs to be more like Heating and Air (and it's heading that way thankfully). Does the average owner of a heating and air system know anymore then how to adjust the thermostat. Do homeowners present a garage full of compressors, burners, blowers and controls to the installer only to have the installer ask where's the ductwork is and the homeowner reply "well the guy who sold it to me said I didn't need ductwork and that a good installer could install it in a day" "Mr. Customer, you seem to have a 2 ton A-Coil and a 3-Ton compressor what would you like me to do?" Travis Creswell Ozark Solar >From: William Miller >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Subject: Re: installer's list [RE-wrenches] >Date: Fri, Sep 22, 2000, 12:09 PM > >I am not a >dealer but a very quality and reliability oriented installer with many >large systems in my portfolio. My experience is that installing dealers >often can't concentrate on both ends of the business at the same time, so >one or both areas suffer. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From wrmiller at slonet.org Fri Sep 22 20:53:47 2000 From: wrmiller at slonet.org (William Miller) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 17:53:47 -0700 Subject: installer's list [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1228911916-951758591-969658262@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.682848292-212058698-969670427@topica.com> Travis: Thanks for your comments. There are some errors in logic contained in it, however. How can one say that non-dealers automatically, "aren't savvy enough to run a real business"? I've been running my business for over 20 years, thank you, and I regard it as a real business. I am licensed, bonded and insured, I pay my taxes and I have my work inspected. I am also working to educate the local inspectors so the inspections are realistic. I guess all we've proven is that dealer/installers can screw up jobs as well as those that install only. By separate e-mail I'll send you a photo of one of my installations so you may get the idea that a non-dealer can actually put a decent system in. My point is no one can prove that the dealer/installer is superior to the non-dealer installer. It is simply a matter of case by case. For the same reason, any list of installers and dealer/installers can not recommend one company over another unless all work is inspected by a professional, which I assume will not be done. If we create such a list, it has to be all inclusive without editorial comments or it can't be fair. Sincerely and respectfully, William Miller __________________________________________________________________ William Miller SLO Communications: Communications and Power Systems Consulting Chief Engineer, KCBX: NPR and PRI for San Luis Obispo and Santa Barbara PO Box 50, Santa Margarita, CA 93453 Voice :805-438-5600 Fax: 805-438-4607 VMail: 805-546-4875 email: wrmiller at slonet.org License No. C-10-773985 _____________________________________________________________ Compatibility: Word processor: WP7, Word 7 Spreadsheet: Quatro Pro 7, Excel 5 CAD: Microstation 95, DXF, Autocad V12 DWG, Visio 4.1T _____________________________________________________________ "I stand by all the misstatements that I've made." Dan Quayle __________________________________________________________________ - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunwise at win.bright.net Fri Sep 22 21:21:23 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (Kurt Nelson, SunWise) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 18:21:23 -0700 Subject: installer's list [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.682848292-212058698-969670427@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1896159857-212058698-969672083@topica.com> William Miller wrote: > > Travis: > > Thanks for your comments. There are some errors in logic contained in it, > however. How can one say that non-dealers automatically, "aren't savvy > enough to run a real business"? I've been running my business for over 20 > years, thank you, and I regard it as a real business. I am licensed, > bonded and insured, I pay my taxes and I have my work inspected. I am also > working to educate the local inspectors so the inspections are realistic. > > I guess all we've proven is that dealer/installers can screw up jobs as > well as those that install only. By separate e-mail I'll send you a photo > of one of my installations so you may get the idea that a non-dealer can > actually put a decent system in. > > My point is no one can prove that the dealer/installer is superior to the > non-dealer installer. It is simply a matter of case by case. For the same > reason, any list of installers and dealer/installers can not recommend one > company over another unless all work is inspected by a professional, which > I assume will not be done. If we create such a list, it has to be all > inclusive without editorial comments or it can't be fair. > > Sincerely and respectfully, > > William Miller > > __________________________________________________________________ > William Miller > SLO Communications: Communications and Power Systems Consulting > Chief Engineer, KCBX: NPR and PRI for San Luis Obispo and Santa Barbara > PO Box 50, Santa Margarita, CA 93453 > Voice :805-438-5600 Fax: 805-438-4607 VMail: 805-546-4875 > email: wrmiller at slonet.org > License No. C-10-773985 > _____________________________________________________________ > Compatibility: > Word processor: WP7, Word 7 > Spreadsheet: Quatro Pro 7, Excel 5 > CAD: Microstation 95, DXF, Autocad V12 DWG, Visio 4.1T > _____________________________________________________________ > "I stand by all the misstatements that I've made." Dan Quayle > __________________________________________________________________ > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics Hey again William, I wanted to say that there are many days when I really admire my (installer only) buddy Carl Hansen. He just travels around in his VW van doing great solar work and not a worry in the world (probably a few, not his words). Chris LaForge refers to Carl as "the conduit king", and he does do a great job of laying out the big "C". He gets a check from the Solar installer/dealer, and drives off into the sunset, often hanging a left from these parts in the fall. -- Kurt Nelson PS - Yet I gotta mention, Travis and I are still in agreement. For the most part installing only seems like a real challenge! - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunwise at win.bright.net Fri Sep 22 21:30:01 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (Kurt Nelson, SunWise) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 18:30:01 -0700 Subject: Installer only [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1547080382-212058698-969672601@topica.com> Sorry, I thing I sent off my last message without my addition.... Installer only/vs/installer dealer... Hey again William, I wanted to say that there are many days when I really admire my (installer only) buddy Carl Hansen. He just travels around in his VW van doing great solar work and not a worry in the world (probably a few, not his words). Chris LaForge refers to Carl as "the conduit king", and he does do a great job of laying out the big "C". He gets a check from the Solar installer/dealer, and drives off into the sunset, often hanging a left from these parts in the fall. -- Kurt Nelson PS - Yet I gotta mention, Travis and I are still in agreement. For the most part installing only seems like a real challenge! - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From econnect at snowcrest.net Sat Sep 23 21:47:19 2000 From: econnect at snowcrest.net (Bob-O Schultze, Electron Connection) Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 18:47:19 -0700 Subject: installer's list [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.682848292-212058698-969670427@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.682848292-212058698-969670427@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.384085529-212058698-969760039@topica.com> William, You may well be the exception that makes the rule. Still, I believe you are missing both the point and the boat by not designing the system and selling the gear. Nearly every tradesman, electricians, plumbers, Etal, sells both the little parts and the major components. It's the only way you can afford to stand behind the job during the warranty period. If something fails the way you do it, do you charge the customer for the service call and the fix? What if they say they feel it was your fault? Who needs that? When you say "I'd suggest instead presenting a list of dealers and/or installers and let the consumer decide after contacting "listees" whether they'd prefer one stop shopping or picking the best from both trades.", you utterly miss the point. This is a Wrenches list. Damn me if we should be listing folks who just vend. I guess I know one or two vendors whose design skills could be considered a "trade" as you suggest, but they are rare-very rare. On the other hand, there is a pestfesterous HOST of piss poor, hot damn, I just made 5%, vendors. These, in my opinion, are what are keeping RE back from the mainstream every bit as much as the utilities. I respect your opinion and your C-10. I hold one as well. But I don't think we should include or modify the Wrench list to include vendors. Not a bit. Bob-O > >Thanks for your comments. There are some errors in logic contained in it, >however. How can one say that non-dealers automatically, "aren't savvy >enough to run a real business"? I've been running my business for over 20 >years, thank you, and I regard it as a real business. I am licensed, >bonded and insured, I pay my taxes and I have my work inspected. I am also >working to educate the local inspectors so the inspections are realistic. > >I guess all we've proven is that dealer/installers can screw up jobs as >well as those that install only. By separate e-mail I'll send you a photo >of one of my installations so you may get the idea that a non-dealer can >actually put a decent system in. > >My point is no one can prove that the dealer/installer is superior to the >non-dealer installer. It is simply a matter of case by case. For the same >reason, any list of installers and dealer/installers can not recommend one >company over another unless all work is inspected by a professional, which >I assume will not be done. If we create such a list, it has to be all >inclusive without editorial comments or it can't be fair. > > >Sincerely and respectfully, > William Miller Bob-O Schultze, Electron Connection PO Box 203, Hornbrook, CA 96044 800.945.7587 fax 530-475-3401 www.electronconnection.com - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From i2p at aol.com Sun Sep 24 13:44:28 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (Don Loweburg, Offline) Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 10:44:28 -0700 Subject: installer's list [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.646245674-951758591-969817468@topica.com> In a message dated 09/23/2000 6:56:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time, econnect at snowcrest.net writes: << William, You may well be the exception that makes the rule. Still, I believe you are missing both the point and the boat by not designing the system and selling the gear. Nearly every tradesman, electricians, plumbers, Etal, sells both the little parts and the major components. It's the only way you can afford to stand behind the job during the warranty period. If something fails the way you do it, do you charge the customer for the service call and the fix? What if they say they feel it was your fault? Who needs that? >> May I chime in. Bob O makes a point that I agree with. However, if William chooses to install only and is good at it, I don't have a problem with him being listed as a wrench that installs only. What we won't have on the wrenches list is those who only sell. (Vendors only). I do think there are pitfalls for an install only approach, ie you may inherit a bad design, are holding the bag for poor customer choice and sometimes poor components and don't make anything on the hardware. On the other hand if a competent installer chooses to work this way, its ok with me. Don - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From i2p at aol.com Sun Sep 24 14:05:07 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (Don Loweburg, Offline) Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 11:05:07 -0700 Subject: installer's list [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1459359179-212058698-969818707@topica.com> In a message dated 09/22/2000 10:11:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time, wrmiller at slonet.org writes: << If you editorialize in either direction, your going to offend someone, so I'd suggest dropping that approach. I'd suggest instead presenting a list of dealers and/or installers and let the consumer decide after contacting "listees" whether they'd prefer one stop shopping or picking the best from both trades. >> William I think you should be included and we don't want to exclude qualified installers who don't sell hardware. My question to you is how do you maintain the integrety of the system. Do you do design and then send the customer out to shop? or just deal with what a customer serves you? I don't think the wrenches list is for dealers only, however. Can we all get along with this? Best, Don - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From i2p at aol.com Sun Sep 24 14:18:45 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (Don Loweburg, Offline) Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 11:18:45 -0700 Subject: installer's list [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.100736670-212058698-969819525@topica.com> In a message dated 09/22/2000 2:32:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ozsolar at ipa.net writes: << Solar needs to be more like Heating and Air (and it's heading that way thankfully). Does the average owner of a heating and air system know anymore then how to adjust the thermostat. Do homeowners present a garage full of compressors, burners, blowers and controls to the installer only to have the installer ask where's the ductwork is and the homeowner reply "well the guy who sold it to me said I didn't need ductwork and that a good installer could install it in a day" "Mr. Customer, you seem to have a 2 ton A-Coil and a 3-Ton compressor what would you like me to do?" >> Travis, You make a very good case for the "whole system" approach and I think that William must understand the points made. In this specific case it sounds like he is installing primarily for a specific vendor that is doing a pretty good job. He may not have the experience that many of us have had with owner installers in trouble. I personally have lots of problems with dealing with vendor's "packages" that are seldom sized correctly or include all the correct components for a specific install. Especially troubling are the BP and Siemens packages being marketed. The package never includes or deals with the all importang "site" specific details which make or break the total experience. Best, Don - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From quicksilver at eagle-access.net Sun Sep 24 16:47:32 2000 From: quicksilver at eagle-access.net (Don Wallingford, Quicksilver Electrical) Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 13:47:32 -0700 Subject: installer's list [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1459359179-212058698-969818707@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2119377507-951758591-969828452@topica.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Loweburg, Offline" To: Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 12:05 PM Subject: Re: installer's list [RE-wrenches] > In a message dated 09/22/2000 10:11:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > wrmiller at slonet.org writes: > > << > If you editorialize in either direction, your going to offend someone, so > I'd suggest dropping that approach. I'd suggest instead presenting a list > of dealers and/or installers and let the consumer decide after contacting > "listees" whether they'd prefer one stop shopping or picking the best from > both trades. > >> > William I think you should be included and we don't want to exclude qualified > installers who don't sell hardware. My question to you is how do you > maintain the integrety of the system. Do you do design and then send the > customer out to shop? or just deal with what a customer serves you? > > I don't think the wrenches list is for dealers only, however. Can we all get > along with this? > > Best, Don > Hello Don and all, I agree that your referral list should be for installers, whether they sell equipment or not. But, no dealers only. My personal preference is to do the whole job, including design, equipment specification, site analysis, installation, testing, and long-term hand-holding. The markup on equipment is what pays for all those other things beyond the wire twisting of the installation. As far as working both (all) ends of a contracting business, sales as well as installations, that's just part of the life of a contractor. A sole proprietor wears many hats in any given day: marketing, sales, design/engineering, worker (the easiest part), accounting, collections, etc. It's a pain in the butt sometimes, and usually takes alot more than 40 hours a week, but beats punching a time clock and 10 days vacation a year. Doesn't it? Maybe I shoulda gotten into real estate instead? -Don Wallingford, Quicksilver Electrical Service > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From i2p at aol.com Sun Sep 24 18:56:09 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (Don Loweburg, Offline) Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 15:56:09 -0700 Subject: installer's list [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1928031468-951758591-969836169@topica.com> In a message dated 09/24/2000 1:48:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time, quicksilver at eagle-access.net writes: << Hello Don and all, I agree that your referral list should be for installers, whether they sell equipment or not. But, no dealers only. My personal preference is to do the whole job, including design, equipment specification, site analysis, installation, testing, and long-term hand-holding. The markup on equipment is what pays for all those other things beyond the wire twisting of the installation. >> Hi, Don - Good to hear from you. Thanks for being inclusive. I think this is the best appoach for a group as diverse as us wrenches. D Loweburg - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From i2p at aol.com Sun Sep 24 19:11:21 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (Don Loweburg, Offline) Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 16:11:21 -0700 Subject: IPP Logo [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1679052908-212058698-969837081@topica.com> Wrench _ IPP members: I have a logo file available for downloading. Some have already asked for a copy earlier but I did not have it together. So, would everyone who wants a copy send a new request (subject line = IPP logo). I will return an attached file in "tiff" format. This works for me on my winmachine. If you are mac let me know. I have it in that flavor too.(thank you Ben) And if you are a hot shot and know what to do with "eps" format, let me know and I can send you that. Best, Don - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From priibe at dtgnet.com Sun Sep 24 21:39:10 2000 From: priibe at dtgnet.com (Pat Riibe) Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 18:39:10 -0700 Subject: IPP Logo [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1679052908-212058698-969837081@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1434245241-212058698-969845950@topica.com> Pat Riibe Re-B energy rebenergy at dtgnet.com www.rebenergy.com 1-866-251-3749 605-665-5652 1210 West 12th Yankton, SD. 57078 USA. > -----Original Message----- > From: Don Loweburg, Offline > [mailto:i2p at aol.com] > Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 6:11 PM > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Subject: IPP Logo [RE-wrenches] > > > Wrench _ IPP members: > > I have a logo file available for > downloading. Some have already asked for a > copy earlier but I did not have it > together. So, would everyone who wants a > copy send a new request (subject line > = IPP logo). I will return an attached > file in "tiff" format. This works for > me on my winmachine. If you are mac > let me know. I have it in that flavor > too.(thank you Ben) > And if you are a hot shot and know > what to do with "eps" format, let me know > and I can send you that. > > Best, Don > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ______________________________________ > _____________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cpae1 at aol.com Sun Sep 24 21:58:42 2000 From: cpae1 at aol.com (Frank Fowler, Crystal Pines Alt. Energy ) Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 18:58:42 -0700 Subject: IPP Logo [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1626057964-951758591-969847122@topica.com> Don, Please send a copy of the IPP logo. I am a win user. We survived the fire up here in the Concow area. Only thing we lost was phone for 4 days and a displaced horse which has been rescued in good condition. A "BIG THANKS TO ALL THE CDF FIREFIGHTERS". SUNcerely, Frank Fowler Crystal Pines Alternative Energy 4408 Pine Cluster Ln. Yankee Hill, CA. 95965-9754 530-532-1972 Fax# 530-532-1359 We are located in the Sierra foothills just 30 miles southeast of Chico, CA. "Living off grid with products we market, install and service" www.solarenergy-alt.com - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From priibe at dtgnet.com Sun Sep 24 22:01:00 2000 From: priibe at dtgnet.com (Pat Riibe) Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 19:01:00 -0700 Subject: Sorry, pushed the wrong button. [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.469401602-212058698-969847260@topica.com> Please excuse that logo message, Sometimes the fingers move before the brain dose. Pat Riibe Re-B energy rebenergy at dtgnet.com www.rebenergy.com 1-866-251-3749 605-665-5652 1210 West 12th Yankton, SD. 57078 USA. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cvsolar at aol.com Sun Sep 24 23:29:16 2000 From: cvsolar at aol.com (John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind) Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 20:29:16 -0700 Subject: installer's list [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.294576864-951758591-969852556@topica.com> Bob-o, I think the point you are making is one of who is responsible for the job and ultimately for the customer satisfaction. With separate sellers and installers it looks like both may say it is the other persons responsiblility if there is a problem and consequently the customer may be up the proverbial creek and RE gets another black eye. It is harder to be both seller and installer but I think the customer has a better chance of getting what they want and are more likely to be satisfied. I look at the challenge of being both as part of the price of being a professional wrench. It contributes to our expertise by being involved in the whole process. Definitely the wrenches list has to be only installers. So far I haven't had much problem competing with the big box discounters but if I do, it could mean the end of my business. Without selling the goods, the total project cost would have to be a lot higher for the customer if I am to make the same. That faxed order to my reliable distributor doesn't take very long. I still have to design the system to work and stand behind it whether I sell it or not! John Blittersdorf Central Vermont Solar and Wind - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From jackwest at alaska.net Mon Sep 25 03:19:39 2000 From: jackwest at alaska.net (Jack West, Talkeetna AE) Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 00:19:39 -0700 Subject: installer's list [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1459359179-212058698-969818707@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.576894951-212058698-969866379@topica.com> Don, OK by me. Jack > I don't think the wrenches list is for dealers only, however. Can we all get > along with this? > > Best, Don > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From toddcory at jps.net Mon Sep 25 11:27:35 2000 From: toddcory at jps.net (Todd Cory, Bald Mt. Solar) Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 08:27:35 -0700 Subject: looking for a used inverter [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.775865010-951758591-969895655@topica.com> Hello, I got a call from a working associate asking about the availability of a used inverter. He wants something in the 1.5 to 2.0 kW range sine wave or "modified" sinewave. If anyone has something good and used laying around that they want to sell him, please contact him directly... here is his e-mail address: mannion at siskiyous.edu Thanks, Todd -- Todd Cory KE6SXS toddcory at jps.net Bald Mountain Solar P.O. Box 689 Mt. Shasta, Ca. 96067 (530) 926-1079 Nothing is worth more than this day. - Goethe - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From i2p at aol.com Mon Sep 25 12:37:11 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (Don Loweburg, Offline) Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 09:37:11 -0700 Subject: installer's list [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.274697380-212058698-969899831@topica.com> In a message dated 09/24/2000 8:39:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time, cvsolar at aol.com writes: << Bob-o, I think the point you are making is one of who is responsible for the job and ultimately for the customer satisfaction. With separate sellers and installers it looks like both may say it is the other persons responsiblility if there is a problem and consequently the customer may be up the proverbial creek and RE gets another black eye. It is harder to be both seller and installer but I think the customer has a better chance of getting what they want and are more likely to be satisfied. I look at the challenge of being both as part of the price of being a professional wrench. It contributes to our expertise by being involved in the whole process. Definitely the wrenches list has to be only installers. >> Hi John, I agree and would add one follow up comment. It has got to be our job to get this message out to the customer before they buy. So flagrant self promotion of ourselves with the understanding that we best serve the customer!! Lets make sure we do so in our print and other forms of advertising. Best, Don - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From michael.welch at homepower.com Mon Sep 25 13:49:20 2000 From: michael.welch at homepower.com (Michael Welch, Home Power) Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 10:49:20 -0700 Subject: IPP Logo [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1626057964-951758591-969847122@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1057260505-212058698-969904160@topica.com> A short reminder to everyone. 1. Please send discussion messages to the list. For example, if you want a copy of the IPP logo, send the request to Don only, not the whole list. 2. Be careful what shows up in your messages in replies. Please edit out the info in the reply that should not be sent, like all the mail list stuff that was in the original message and will be added in again to your message when it hits the list server. 3. Please do not send html or formatted text to the list. Set your mail program to send plain text only. Michael Welch ------------------------ "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top." Edward Abbey Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com www.homepower.com Associate Editor, Home Power magazine Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance (Not HP mag's #s) 707-822-7884 fax: 707-822-3481 - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From allan at positivenergy.com Mon Sep 25 22:35:48 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 19:35:48 -0700 Subject: IPP Logo [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.863115372-212058698-969935748@topica.com> Us, please, Don. Thanx. -----Original Message----- From: Don Loweburg, Offline To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Date: Sunday, September 24, 2000 5:14 PM Subject: IPP Logo [RE-wrenches] >Wrench _ IPP members: > >I have a logo file available for downloading. Some have already asked for a >copy earlier but I did not have it together. So, would everyone who wants a >copy send a new request (subject line = IPP logo). I will return an attached >file in "tiff" format. This works for me on my winmachine. If you are mac >let me know. I have it in that flavor too.(thank you Ben) >And if you are a hot shot and know what to do with "eps" format, let me know >and I can send you that. > >Best, Don > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From freepower at freepower.co.nz Mon Sep 25 22:59:18 2000 From: freepower at freepower.co.nz (Carl Emerson) Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 19:59:18 -0700 Subject: Low flow bore pump [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.863115372-212058698-969935748@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1172177278-212058698-969937158@topica.com> Hullo There... Anybody know of a low flow bore pump with the following spec. ?? Flow 1.6L/min or 100L/hr (26 US Gal hr). The well depth is 85m (278.8 feet) Diameter of casing is 100mm PVC (4 inch). All the pumps I know of would suck the well dry as it has a low yield. Appreciate your help... -- Regards, Carl Emerson Manager FREEPOWER LTD. "Harnessing Natural Energy" AUCKLAND 356 East Coast Road, Mairangi Bay, P.O. Box 68-247, AUCKLAND, New Zealand. Voice +64 9 478-0404 Mobile 021-633999 Cellfax 021-2919399 Fax +64 9 478-0405 Email emerson at freepower.co.nz - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunwise at win.bright.net Tue Sep 26 00:29:14 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (Kurt Nelson, SunWise) Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 21:29:14 -0700 Subject: Low flow bore pump [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.863115372-212058698-969935748@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1172177278-212058698-969937158@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1933261953-212058698-969942554@topica.com> Carl Emerson wrote: > > Anybody know of a low flow bore pump with the following spec. ?? > > Flow 1.6L/min or 100L/hr (26 US Gal hr). > The well depth is 85m (278.8 feet) > Diameter of casing is 100mm PVC (4 inch). > > All the pumps I know of would suck the well dry as it has a low yield. > Greetings Carl, Sorry, I can't help but would like to up the stakes. I'm also interested in a low-flow deep-well pump (you didn't mention the voltage), but would also like to hear of anyone producing an ultra-low flow surface pump that could produce approximately a guart to a liter a minute. This would be at a good GPM/WH efficiency and I'd be interested in low voltage DC, but perhaps ac as well. Seems like there are a bunch of old or driven point wells out that are not considered usable because almost any standard pump won't go that low in flow. Has there been any use of the pumps that use a cam or rotating lobe to depress a circular (plastic) hose? I've seen these in medical and chemical pumps and wonder if they might not work out, at least in a sub-pumps or pumps with a very low suction lift? Kurt Nelson - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solarjon at netshel.net Tue Sep 26 08:50:39 2000 From: solarjon at netshel.net (Jonathan Hill) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 05:50:39 -0700 Subject: installer's list [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.274697380-212058698-969899831@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.274697380-212058698-969899831@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1543193243-212058698-969972639@topica.com> >Hi Bobbo, Don et al: As an"installing dealer " for 20 years, (and the one who started this debate a month ago), I feel the need to comment. While I used to do all my local installations, I've stopped doing my own installations a while back because I don't have a licence and don't get enough local install business to justify getting one. Besides, the demands of running a mid-sized RE biz with national catalog don't really allow me the time to get out in the field very often. Instead, what works for us has been to form a strategic alliance with a local electrician who now does all our local installs. This way, we cover our butt liability-wise and make sure the customer gets a well-designed and well-installed system. We design and sell quality RE systems around the US, often in areas where there are no competent local dealers. When this happens, we try to find someone locally or at least within driving distance to do the install. They need not be a dealer, only have some knowlege about doing a good install. That's why I originally put the word out that we were looking for people to do installs in places out of our local area. A installer's list would serve both the customer as well as dealers selling out of their own area. I agree that some low-ball fly-by-night internet dealers are a blight on our industry. But remember that there are many top-quality dealers also, who while the may not install, still offer a well designed system to their customers. Same thing with installers- some are great, and some you just gotta wonder! Takes all kinds I guess. Anyhow, my vote is a list of everyone involved, with a description of what services they offer. It would really help us all. Jon Hill, Sierra Solar Systems >In a message dated 09/24/2000 8:39:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time, >cvsolar at aol.com writes: > ><< Bob-o, > I think the point you are making is one of who is responsible for the job > and ultimately for the customer satisfaction. With separate sellers and > installers it looks like both may say it is the other persons >responsiblility > if there is a problem and consequently the customer may be up the proverbial > creek and RE gets another black eye. It is harder to be both seller and > installer but I think the customer has a better chance of getting what they > want and are more likely to be satisfied. I look at the challenge of being > both as part of the price of being a professional wrench. It contributes to > our expertise by being involved in the whole process. Definitely the >wrenches > list has to be only installers. >> > > >Hi John, I agree and would add one follow up comment. It has got to be our >job to get this message out to the customer before they buy. So flagrant self >promotion of ourselves with the understanding that we best serve the >customer!! Lets make sure we do so in our print and other forms of >advertising. > >Best, Don > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics ----------------- Sierra Solar Systems 109-N Argall Way Nevada City, CA 95959 tech info and foreign orders: (530) 265-8441 order line: (800) 51-SOLAR (US only) FAX: (530) 265-6151 e-mail: world wide web: Because of the high volume of e-mail to which I respond, please leave _all_ of the previous message (unless it's unbearable) in your reply so I can better remember your original message. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From jay at asis.com Tue Sep 26 11:15:11 2000 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 08:15:11 -0700 Subject: IPP Logo [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.863115372-212058698-969935748@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.207350778-951758591-969981311@topica.com> allan wrote: > Us, please, Don. Thanx. > -----Original Message----- > From: Don Loweburg, Offline > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Date: Sunday, September 24, 2000 5:14 PM > Subject: IPP Logo [RE-wrenches] > > >Wrench _ IPP members: > > > >I have a logo file available for downloading. Some have already asked for > a > >copy earlier but I did not have it together. So, would everyone who wants a > >copy send a new request (subject line = IPP logo). I will return an > attached > >file in "tiff" format. This works for me on my winmachine. If you are mac > >let me know. I have it in that flavor too.(thank you Ben) > >And if you are a hot shot and know what to do with "eps" format, let me > know > >and I can send you that. > > > >Best, Don > > > >- - - - - - - > >To send a message: > > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > > >The archive of previous messages: > > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > www.homepower.com > > > >For info contact list moderator by email: > > michael.welch at homepower.com > >___________________________________________________________ > >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From i2p at aol.com Tue Sep 26 12:00:00 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (Don Loweburg, Offline) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 09:00:00 -0700 Subject: installer's list [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1284049881-212058698-969984000@topica.com> In a message dated 09/26/2000 5:52:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time, solarjon at netshel.net writes: << Takes all kinds I guess. Anyhow, my vote is a list of everyone involved, with a description of what services they offer. It would really help us all. Jon Hill, Sierra Solar Systems >> Thanks Jon, As I said before we need to be inclusive. Comments?? Don - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From bob at energyoutfitters.com Tue Sep 26 12:53:14 2000 From: bob at energyoutfitters.com (Bob Maynard, Energy Outfitters) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 09:53:14 -0700 Subject: installer's list [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1284049881-212058698-969984000@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.44433589-212058698-969987194@topica.com> Jon, Our business runs much like yours. We pride ourselves in thorough system design using what we believe to be the cream of the crop products. We sell systems nationally, mostly based on word of mouth refferals from happy and satisfied customers. I used to install but as the business grew and Oregon's inspectors cracked down, it didn't make sense to continue. We have a few good electricians in southern Oregon that love the concept of renewables and have been willing to learn from us how to install pv. I'm working with a handful of other "outlaws" in Oregon(pv installers) as well as our state office of energy, head of the state electrical inspection division, and OSEIA to hopefully create a legal status for Solar Contractors to do our jobs without fear of fines. It will take legislative action and if we win, I'll be wrenching again. I hope companies like Sierra Solar and Energy Outfitters will be included on this list. Regards, Bob Maynard Energy Outfitters "Don Loweburg, Offline" wrote: > In a message dated 09/26/2000 5:52:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > solarjon at netshel.net writes: > > << Takes all kinds I guess. > Anyhow, my vote is a list of everyone involved, with a description of > what services they offer. It would really help us all. > Jon Hill, Sierra Solar Systems >> > Thanks Jon, As I said before we need to be inclusive. Comments?? > > Don > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From amazonpower at hotmail.com Tue Sep 26 17:46:12 2000 From: amazonpower at hotmail.com (Donna Fischer, Amazon Power) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 14:46:12 -0700 Subject: Sunfrost noise [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1398878297-212058698-970004772@topica.com> Hi folks, I have a client who wants a Sunfrost but her builder says she'll be sorry because electric refrigerators will vibrate and make a lot of noise in a pumice house. Anyone heard anything about this? On the topic of referrals, traveling, etc., I'm pretty willing to go anywhere (so far) that someone has been willing to pay my way. I'd love to hear from those of you who have done this and made it work, as far as what tools to take with, how to package them, etc. I'm happy to say that I have a job lined up in Hawaii this winter and just returned from a trip to Alaska, where I'd really like to help get people weaned off the generators. Any tips will be apprciated! Donna _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From allan at positivenergy.com Tue Sep 26 18:24:31 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 15:24:31 -0700 Subject: Low flow bore pump [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.979028159-951758591-970007071@topica.com> Kurt, For a surface pump application, consider a Danoff Solar Slowpump model 1322-24V running at half-speed (15V array-direct or 12-14V battery. At 20' of head, .25 gpm, and ~16-18w of PV; at 200' of head, .23 gpm and 45w of PV. Last weekend we installed something like this, where we set a spring box in a slow spring; used the Slowpump set above high water level; laid the 30" filter horizontally below low water level; and used a float switch on the remote shutoff circuit of a Solar Converters LCB, to prevent run-dry. Worked great. Carl, A SunRise deep-well sub model 5218 could handle this, sort of. You didn't indicate total head and drawdown, only well depth, so for example, at 275', running half-speed with a controller, it will pump .8 gpm--still too fast, but 1) the pump tolerates running dry without damage, and 2) the controller has a dry-run sensing circuit that shuts the pump off for 20 minutes or so to recharge the well. Hope this helps. Allan at +E -----Original Message----- From: Kurt Nelson, SunWise To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Date: Monday, September 25, 2000 10:29 PM Subject: Re: Low flow bore pump [RE-wrenches] >Carl Emerson wrote: >> >> Anybody know of a low flow bore pump with the following spec. ?? >> >> Flow 1.6L/min or 100L/hr (26 US Gal hr). >> The well depth is 85m (278.8 feet) >> Diameter of casing is 100mm PVC (4 inch). >> >> All the pumps I know of would suck the well dry as it has a low yield. >> >Greetings Carl, > >Sorry, I can't help but would like to up the stakes. I'm also >interested in a low-flow deep-well pump (you didn't mention the >voltage), but would also like to hear of anyone producing an ultra-low >flow surface pump that could produce approximately a guart to a liter a >minute. This would be at a good GPM/WH efficiency and I'd be interested >in low voltage DC, but perhaps ac as well. Seems like there are a bunch >of old or driven point wells out that are not considered usable because >almost any standard pump won't go that low in flow. Has there been any >use of the pumps that use a cam or rotating lobe to depress a circular >(plastic) hose? I've seen these in medical and chemical pumps and >wonder if they might not work out, at least in a sub-pumps or pumps with >a very low suction lift? Kurt Nelson > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From allan at positivenergy.com Tue Sep 26 20:43:45 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 17:43:45 -0700 Subject: Sunfrost noise [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.566400277-951758591-970015425@topica.com> Donna, Stay away from the RF19 or F19--the fan annoys most folks, even with the slow-down washer they provide if asked. Otherwise they're quite quiet. By the way, we bought the new Maytag 1822 fridge, figuring the economic scales for us as wrenching dealers favored using more PV over the Sun Frost's greater efficiency, and we're pretty happy with it. It's our biggest load, but 750w of PV easily keeps up with our houseful of 3 little kids and 2 grownups(?). I expect the Maytag to use about 1 kW/day with 1 or 2 grownups and no kids. Allan @ +E -----Original Message----- From: Donna Fischer, Amazon Power To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Date: Tuesday, September 26, 2000 3:46 PM Subject: Sunfrost noise [RE-wrenches] >Hi folks, > >I have a client who wants a Sunfrost but her builder says she'll be sorry >because electric refrigerators will vibrate and make a lot of noise in a >pumice house. Anyone heard anything about this? >On the topic of referrals, traveling, etc., I'm pretty willing to go >anywhere (so far) that someone has been willing to pay my way. I'd love to >hear from those of you who have done this and made it work, as far as what >tools to take with, how to package them, etc. I'm happy to say that I have >a job lined up in Hawaii this winter and just returned from a trip to >Alaska, where I'd really like to help get people weaned off the generators. >Any tips will be apprciated! Donna >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at >http://profiles.msn.com. > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From amazonpower at hotmail.com Tue Sep 26 22:03:18 2000 From: amazonpower at hotmail.com (Donna Fischer, Amazon Power) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 19:03:18 -0700 Subject: subscribe [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2146440625-212058698-970020198@topica.com> _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From amazonpower at hotmail.com Tue Sep 26 22:04:20 2000 From: amazonpower at hotmail.com (Donna Fischer, Amazon Power) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 19:04:20 -0700 Subject: Interconnection Newsletter - August 2000 [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1220861334-212058698-970020260@topica.com> please excuse the goof! _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From jay at asis.com Wed Sep 27 11:14:16 2000 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 08:14:16 -0700 Subject: Low flow bore pump [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.979028159-951758591-970007071@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.421823878-951758591-970067656@topica.com> Hi All, Your only other choice is go with a jack pump and then vary the speed to keep the flow rate where you want it. They are expensive and much more complicated to install however. Solar jack used to carry(make)them, and I know that Lehmans has them too. Jay allan wrote: > Kurt, > For a surface pump application, consider a Danoff Solar Slowpump model > 1322-24V running at half-speed (15V array-direct or 12-14V battery. At 20' > of head, .25 gpm, and ~16-18w of PV; at 200' of head, .23 gpm and 45w of PV. > Last weekend we installed something like this, where we set a spring box > in a slow spring; used the Slowpump set above high water level; laid the 30" > filter horizontally below low water level; and used a float switch on the > remote shutoff circuit of a Solar Converters LCB, to prevent run-dry. > Worked great. > > Carl, > A SunRise deep-well sub model 5218 could handle this, sort of. You > didn't indicate total head and drawdown, only well depth, so for example, at > 275', running half-speed with a controller, it will pump .8 gpm--still too > fast, but 1) the pump tolerates running dry without damage, and 2) the > controller has a dry-run sensing circuit that shuts the pump off for 20 > minutes or so to recharge the well. > > Hope this helps. > > Allan at +E > -----Original Message----- > From: Kurt Nelson, SunWise > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com > Date: Monday, September 25, 2000 10:29 PM > Subject: Re: Low flow bore pump [RE-wrenches] > > >Carl Emerson wrote: > >> > >> Anybody know of a low flow bore pump with the following spec. ?? > >> > >> Flow 1.6L/min or 100L/hr (26 US Gal hr). > >> The well depth is 85m (278.8 feet) > >> Diameter of casing is 100mm PVC (4 inch). > >> > >> All the pumps I know of would suck the well dry as it has a low yield. > >> > >Greetings Carl, > > > >Sorry, I can't help but would like to up the stakes. I'm also > >interested in a low-flow deep-well pump (you didn't mention the > >voltage), but would also like to hear of anyone producing an ultra-low > >flow surface pump that could produce approximately a guart to a liter a > >minute. This would be at a good GPM/WH efficiency and I'd be interested > >in low voltage DC, but perhaps ac as well. Seems like there are a bunch > >of old or driven point wells out that are not considered usable because > >almost any standard pump won't go that low in flow. Has there been any > >use of the pumps that use a cam or rotating lobe to depress a circular > >(plastic) hose? I've seen these in medical and chemical pumps and > >wonder if they might not work out, at least in a sub-pumps or pumps with > >a very low suction lift? Kurt Nelson > > > >- - - - - - - > >To send a message: > > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > > >The archive of previous messages: > > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > www.homepower.com > > > >For info contact list moderator by email: > > michael.welch at homepower.com > >___________________________________________________________ > >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From jay at asis.com Wed Sep 27 11:14:24 2000 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 08:14:24 -0700 Subject: Sunfrost noise [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1398878297-212058698-970004772@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.208042126-212058698-970067664@topica.com> Hi Donna, The units that I have been around including my own ( RF-12 which has no fan) is pretty quiet. I think they are more quiet than any electric unit I've been around. I don't believe that the standard RF16 has a fan, just two compressors. As to what Allan says, yep its a real option in the sunny climate that you have. My calcuations show that with the new efficient off the shelf units, in your climate: that it'll be very close in price either way. Good luck, jay "Donna Fischer, Amazon Power" wrote: > Hi folks, > > I have a client who wants a Sunfrost but her builder says she'll be sorry > because electric refrigerators will vibrate and make a lot of noise in a > pumice house. Anyone heard anything about this? > On the topic of referrals, traveling, etc., I'm pretty willing to go > anywhere (so far) that someone has been willing to pay my way. I'd love to > hear from those of you who have done this and made it work, as far as what > tools to take with, how to package them, etc. I'm happy to say that I have > a job lined up in Hawaii this winter and just returned from a trip to > Alaska, where I'd really like to help get people weaned off the generators. > Any tips will be apprciated! Donna > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ellison at gisco.net Wed Sep 27 11:36:57 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison, Alternative Energy Systems) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 08:36:57 -0700 Subject: Sunfrost noise [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1398878297-212058698-970004772@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.30651385-212058698-970069017@topica.com> Donna, I have a Sun frost RF 19 here. There is virtually no compressor noise, and no fan noise. When I am wondering what compressor is running I have to feel them to find out !! The only noise that it makes is the temperature control relay when it clicks on and off to start a compressor, that tells you how silent it is. I only hear the relay when the TV is off and everything is dead silent in the house, (not very often). There is no vibration at all that I can feel. With the tiny compressors that they use noise and vibration are not a problem, at least not that I have ever heard of. The cooling fan in the Whispers transformer box is much louder when the wind is blowing than the Sun Frost. The fan is not objectionable, just there in the background. Later, Bob Ellison -----Original Message----- From: Donna Fischer, Amazon Power [mailto:amazonpower at hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2000 5:46 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Sunfrost noise [RE-wrenches] Hi folks, I have a client who wants a Sunfrost but her builder says she'll be sorry because electric refrigerators will vibrate and make a lot of noise in a pumice house. Anyone heard anything about this? On the topic of referrals, traveling, etc., I'm pretty willing to go anywhere (so far) that someone has been willing to pay my way. I'd love to hear from those of you who have done this and made it work, as far as what tools to take with, how to package them, etc. I'm happy to say that I have a job lined up in Hawaii this winter and just returned from a trip to Alaska, where I'd really like to help get people weaned off the generators. Any tips will be apprciated! Donna _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From toddcory at jps.net Wed Sep 27 11:38:19 2000 From: toddcory at jps.net (Todd Cory, Bald Mt. Solar) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 08:38:19 -0700 Subject: Sunfrost noise [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1398878297-212058698-970004772@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1998214599-212058698-970069099@topica.com> Hi Donna, I purchased a Sunfrost RF-12 for my personal home about 5 years ago and is was horrible! After running for about 5 minutes it would make a very annoying "dripping water" sound, evidently coming from dripping liquid refrigerant in the copper tubing. I called Sunfrost and after *much* haranguing, I got them to agree to repair the unit. After all one of the selling points is that it is supposed to be quiet! I found it frustrating to have to so strongly demand this problem be rectified, but eventually I prevailed. If I recall, they paid for the shipping. I lived out of an ice chest for a few weeks, got a new unit back and everything has been fine since then except for the 3 door clasp failures. I understand this is a common problem. I have been quite happy with the performance and quietness of the unit, especially when compared with traditional self defrosting ones. BTW, I defrost once a year... takes about 3 minutes. I use a wooden scraper and the slight buildup of frost simply pops off the slick plastic interior surface. After a year I have about 1/2" of frost/ice on parts of the freezer top only. I am not sure why people balk so on manually defrosting freezers, especially considering the wasteful energy requirements. The only alternative is a propane unit and they also produce sounds when operating... the flame's jet is audible and burning propane can also create indoor air pollution. Hope this helps. TC -- Todd Cory KE6SXS toddcory at jps.net Bald Mountain Solar P.O. Box 689 Mt. Shasta, Ca. 96067 (530) 926-1079 - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From allan at positivenergy.com Wed Sep 27 13:00:50 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 10:00:50 -0700 Subject: Sunfrost noise [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.993274249-951758591-970074050@topica.com> Donna, Whoops...make sure brain is functional before engaging keyboard..."washer" was supposed to be "resistor" in my note about the Sun Frost 19s. They will send a step-down resistor to slow down the fan speed if you ask for it. Allan -----Original Message----- From: allan To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Date: Tuesday, September 26, 2000 6:43 PM Subject: Re: Sunfrost noise [RE-wrenches] >Donna, >Stay away from the RF19 or F19--the fan annoys most folks, even with the >slow-down washer they provide if asked. Otherwise they're quite quiet. > By the way, we bought the new Maytag 1822 fridge, figuring the economic >scales for us as wrenching dealers favored using more PV over the Sun >Frost's greater efficiency, and we're pretty happy with it. It's our >biggest load, but 750w of PV easily keeps up with our houseful of 3 little >kids and 2 grownups(?). I expect the Maytag to use about 1 kW/day with 1 or >2 grownups and no kids. >Allan @ +E >-----Original Message----- >From: Donna Fischer, Amazon Power >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Date: Tuesday, September 26, 2000 3:46 PM >Subject: Sunfrost noise [RE-wrenches] > > >>Hi folks, >> >>I have a client who wants a Sunfrost but her builder says she'll be sorry >>because electric refrigerators will vibrate and make a lot of noise in a >>pumice house. Anyone heard anything about this? >>On the topic of referrals, traveling, etc., I'm pretty willing to go >>anywhere (so far) that someone has been willing to pay my way. I'd love to >>hear from those of you who have done this and made it work, as far as what >>tools to take with, how to package them, etc. I'm happy to say that I have >>a job lined up in Hawaii this winter and just returned from a trip to >>Alaska, where I'd really like to help get people weaned off the generators. >>Any tips will be apprciated! Donna >>_________________________________________________________________________ >>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. >> >>Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at >>http://profiles.msn.com. >> >>- - - - - - - >>To send a message: >> RE-wrenches at topica.com >> >>The archive of previous messages: >> http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ >> >>To unsubscribe send a message to: >> RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com >> >>To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: >> www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html >> >>Hosted by Home Power magazine: >> www.homepower.com >> >>For info contact list moderator by email: >> michael.welch at homepower.com >>___________________________________________________________ >>T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >>Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics >> > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From i2p at aol.com Wed Sep 27 13:44:52 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (Don Loweburg, Offline) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 10:44:52 -0700 Subject: installer's list [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1393609846-212058698-970076692@topica.com> In a message dated 09/26/2000 9:59:55 AM Pacific Daylight Time, bob at energyoutfitters.com writes: << I hope companies like Sierra Solar and Energy Outfitters will be included on this list. >> I think you should. Both company's owners have installing background, presently work with experienced installers, have a solid long term track record and are known in the industry. And IPP members already. Don - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From i2p at aol.com Wed Sep 27 13:45:38 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (Don Loweburg, Offline) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 10:45:38 -0700 Subject: Sunfrost noise [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.272256565-212058698-970076738@topica.com> In a message dated 09/26/2000 2:46:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time, amazonpower at hotmail.com writes: << I have a client who wants a Sunfrost but her builder says she'll be sorry because electric refrigerators will vibrate and make a lot of noise in a pumice house. Anyone heard anything about this? >> What's the alternative, Propane? Not my favorite and a high efficiency electric will pay back in about 8-10 years compared t propane. Noice is a subjective issue. What is too noisy? The sunfrost is no noiser than other freezers or refrig. The estimate on the Maytag efficiency may be a bit optimistic, though that approch is ok for those who want a "production" applience. And there are some good reasons sometimes for this choice. Don - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Wed Sep 27 15:44:50 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (R. Sparks Scott) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 12:44:50 -0700 Subject: Sunfrost noise [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.272256565-212058698-970076738@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1643009928-212058698-970083890@topica.com> A few words in defense of the 'propane' refrigerators: I've lived out of one for 26 years and would need a *very* compelling reason to change. Almost all RV-type propane refrigerators are also gas/electric combos. When running on electric, they are virtually silent and consume power that might otherwise be wasted in a charge controller. The gas feature makes for a very attractive back-up power source in case of system failure or mid-winter PV shortfalls. Consumption: My old unit is probably not as efficient as newer ones, but it consumes less than 1KwH per day, or about 10 gallons of propane per month. It does require periodic defrosting, but that might be more due to the condition of the door seals than the design. Indoor air pollution: Anybody that doesn't install a petroleum-fueled appliance in accordance with approved instructions and codes, i.e: venting it outdoors, is asking for a good dose of CO poisoning! Payback: This is a hard one, I paid $125 at a flea market. That would be, uh, $4.80/yr. Sounds good to me. Even a new whizz-bang side-by-side RV unit of reasonable size is going to cost only $1200 or so, this puts it in the same cost range as the Sunfrost, eh? Noise: I'd have to agree, ANY continuous noise from a household appliance is way too much! Durability: Zero moving parts (except the door!) Remember, it's also called *Appropriate* Technology. In some cases, the old-line appliances are the most appropriate choice for the customers needs. -S - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From jay at asis.com Wed Sep 27 20:11:55 2000 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 17:11:55 -0700 Subject: compact floursents in track lighting [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.272256565-212058698-970076738@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.427671439-212058698-970099915@topica.com> I am looking for a fixture that fits in tracked lighting that accepts a standard CFL bulb? Anyhelp out there? I can find them with built in ( sort of like an outdoor flood) fixture but nothing that takes a standard CFL. Thanks, Jay Peltz - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From jay at asis.com Wed Sep 27 20:11:56 2000 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 17:11:56 -0700 Subject: Sunfrost noise [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1643009928-212058698-970083890@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.219092744-951758591-970099916@topica.com> Hi Sparks, I would only caution that the "new" propane units don't seem to be lasting much beyond around 10 years. I sold lots of them to folks around here ( so humboldt) and the lifespan seemed to be around 10 years. At that point they were spent. So they become a bit less cost effective when using those numbers. The old origional Servels, heck many are still in use working great. Jay "R. Sparks Scott" wrote: > A few words in defense of the 'propane' refrigerators: > I've lived out of one for 26 years and would need a *very* compelling > reason to change. Almost all RV-type propane refrigerators are also > gas/electric combos. When running on electric, they are virtually silent > and consume power that might otherwise be wasted in a charge controller. > The gas feature makes for a very attractive back-up power source in case of > system failure or mid-winter PV shortfalls. > Consumption: My old unit is probably not as efficient as newer ones, but > it consumes less than 1KwH per day, or about 10 gallons of propane per > month. It does require periodic defrosting, but that might be more due to > the condition of the door seals than the design. > Indoor air pollution: Anybody that doesn't install a petroleum-fueled > appliance in accordance with approved instructions and codes, i.e: venting > it outdoors, is asking for a good dose of CO poisoning! > Payback: This is a hard one, I paid $125 at a flea market. That would be, > uh, $4.80/yr. Sounds good to me. Even a new whizz-bang side-by-side RV unit > of reasonable size is going to cost only $1200 or so, this puts it in the > same cost range as the Sunfrost, eh? > Noise: I'd have to agree, ANY continuous noise from a household appliance > is way too much! > Durability: Zero moving parts (except the door!) > Remember, it's also called *Appropriate* Technology. In some cases, the > old-line appliances are the most appropriate choice for the customers needs. > > -S > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From jay at asis.com Wed Sep 27 20:14:03 2000 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 17:14:03 -0700 Subject: Sunfrost noise [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.272256565-212058698-970076738@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1344881576-951758591-970100043@topica.com> Hi All, In regards to refrigerator efficiencys, you can check the california state website http://www.energy.ca.gov/efficiency/appliances/refrig-freezers/refrig-freezers.html The Magic Chef models CTL1511AEA at 15 cu ft are using 1.2 kwh/day. When I worked at AEE, I did talk to a few installers Hawaii, other locations and they measured it at the 1.2 kwh day. Yep its more than the sunfrost, but they cost $6-800, quite a bit cheaper than the Sunfrost. I like to support Larry and I think he makes great units. The worse your climate the more cost effective the sunfrost is. Thanks, jay "Don Loweburg, Offline" wrote: > In a message dated 09/26/2000 2:46:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > amazonpower at hotmail.com writes: > > << I have a client who wants a Sunfrost but her builder says she'll be sorry > because electric refrigerators will vibrate and make a lot of noise in a > pumice house. Anyone heard anything about this? >> > > What's the alternative, Propane? Not my favorite and a high efficiency > electric will pay back in about 8-10 years compared t propane. Noice is a > subjective issue. What is too noisy? The sunfrost is no noiser than other > freezers or refrig. The estimate on the Maytag efficiency may be a bit > optimistic, though that approch is ok for those who want a "production" > applience. And there are some good reasons sometimes for this choice. > > Don > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics "Don Loweburg, Offline" wrote: > In a message dated 09/26/2000 2:46:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > amazonpower at hotmail.com writes: > > << I have a client who wants a Sunfrost but her builder says she'll be sorry > because electric refrigerators will vibrate and make a lot of noise in a > pumice house. Anyone heard anything about this? >> > > What's the alternative, Propane? Not my favorite and a high efficiency > electric will pay back in about 8-10 years compared t propane. Noice is a > subjective issue. What is too noisy? The sunfrost is no noiser than other > freezers or refrig. The estimate on the Maytag efficiency may be a bit > optimistic, though that approch is ok for those who want a "production" > applience. And there are some good reasons sometimes for this choice. > > Don > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunwise at win.bright.net Wed Sep 27 21:17:04 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (Kurt Nelson, SunWise) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 18:17:04 -0700 Subject: Sunfrost noise [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.272256565-212058698-970076738@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1344881576-951758591-970100043@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.524224371-212058698-970103824@topica.com> jay peltz wrote: > > The Magic Chef models CTL1511AEA at 15 cu ft are using 1.2 kwh/day. When I > worked at AEE, I did talk to a few installers Hawaii, other locations and they > measured it at the 1.2 kwh day. Hey Jay, Is the 15 cu ft Magic Chef a manual defrost? Not familar with it but I have a number of smaller super efficient systems out there that would notice the increased load of having the inverter booted 24/7 (I assume this is not factored into daily KWH calculations). I know that industry wide, there has been a tendency towards ignoring the phantom loads and increasing the array to accomidate. Works out okay for the most part in sunny climes, but round here you gotta pay attention to such stuff come November and December. Kurt Nelson Solutions This message brought to you by "those of us against the over-reliance on inefficient and high emmisions fossil fuel gen-set crowd". > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From telliot at wagonmaker.com Wed Sep 27 22:17:14 2000 From: telliot at wagonmaker.com (Tom Elliot) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 19:17:14 -0700 Subject: Sunfrost noise [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.272256565-212058698-970076738@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1344881576-951758591-970100043@topica.com> <0.1300002502.524224371-212058698-970103824@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.126189984-951758591-970107434@topica.com> I see lots of posts about Sunfrost but none about the Vestfrost/Conserv which is virtually silent. Whenever I'm showing mine to folks I have to put my ear to it to tell if it is running and even then it isn't easy to tell. They are the quietest units I've (n)ever heard. Tom Elliot Guffey Energy Works Solar Energy Education http://www.wagonmaker.com - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From kurtj12 at aol.com Wed Sep 27 22:41:45 2000 From: kurtj12 at aol.com (kurtj12 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 19:41:45 -0700 Subject: Fwd: [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1926617192-212058698-970108905@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/mixed Size: 2560 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kurtj12 at aol.com Wed Sep 27 22:46:04 2000 From: kurtj12 at aol.com (kurtj12 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 19:46:04 -0700 Subject: fridges? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1345257473-951758591-970109164@topica.com> does anyone have the latest or know where i can find out who has the most efficient commercial fridge and how it compares to conserv and sun frost? how much they cost, how much power they use, and size? i would deeply appreciate any info anyone has. thanx kurt johnson - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunwise at win.bright.net Wed Sep 27 23:13:38 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (Kurt Nelson, SunWise) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 20:13:38 -0700 Subject: fridges? [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1345257473-951758591-970109164@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.607983632-951758591-970110818@topica.com> kurtj12 at aol.com wrote: > > does anyone have the latest or know where i can find out who has the most efficient commercial fridge and how it compares to conserv and sun frost? > thanx > kurt johnson Hey kurt, kurt Nelson here... I think it is still worth while keeping an eye on my last message concerning phantom loads. Esentially what I am saying is that there is no "best" or most efficient frig out there, but rather that all loads, including frig's, should be custom fit to the client's needs (loads) and their (site) renewable energy resources. Kurt Nelson > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cvsolar at aol.com Thu Sep 28 08:23:42 2000 From: cvsolar at aol.com (John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 05:23:42 -0700 Subject: Referral N.J. Area [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1912845408-212058698-970143822@topica.com> Hi Wrenches, I seem to be getting a lot of inquiries from out of state lately. Some I am pursuing as things are a little slow but I think NJ is too far for me. Is there anyone out there in the New Jersey area? John CVSolar >From a mountaintop in Vermont - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cvsolar at aol.com Thu Sep 28 08:23:51 2000 From: cvsolar at aol.com (John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 05:23:51 -0700 Subject: compact floursents in track lighting [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.880679290-951758591-970143831@topica.com> Jay, Another solution might be a compact fluorescent that does fit. IKEA has an extremely small 7 watt CFL that has a ballast base not much bigger than the diameter of a quarter. John B. CVSolar - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sebpv at stelle.net Thu Sep 28 10:04:02 2000 From: sebpv at stelle.net (Steve Bell) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 07:04:02 -0700 Subject: Sunfrost noise [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.272256565-212058698-970076738@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1344881576-951758591-970100043@topica.com> <0.1300002502.524224371-212058698-970103824@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.884192458-212058698-970149842@topica.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kurt Nelson, SunWise" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 08:17 PM Subject: Re: Sunfrost noise [RE-wrenches] > jay peltz wrote: > > > > The Magic Chef models CTL1511AEA at 15 cu ft are using 1.2 kwh/day. When I > > worked at AEE, I did talk to a few installers Hawaii, other locations and they > > measured it at the 1.2 kwh day. > > Hey Jay, > > Is the 15 cu ft Magic Chef a manual defrost? Not familar with it but I > have a number of smaller super efficient systems out there that would > notice the increased load of having the inverter booted 24/7 (I assume > this is not factored into daily KWH calculations). I know that industry > wide, there has been a tendency towards ignoring the phantom loads and > increasing the array to accomidate. Works out okay for the most part in > sunny climes, but round here you gotta pay attention to such stuff come > November and December. > > Kurt Nelson > Solutions > > Hi Kurt, With any AC powered refrigerator whether off-the-shelf or a SunFrost there is the possibility of 24/7 inverter operation, but it is not a requirement that they operate that way. In fact, many times you need to go to extra effort to keep them operating 24/7, provided the rest of the home has dealt with phantom loads. Here is what I have seen. When the refrig. cycles down (not cooling) the "base-line" thermostat load is below the "sleep" setting of the inverter, so the inverter goes to sleep and so does the temp sense circuit of the refrig. The refrig can not wake back up on it's own because it does not know warming up. It wakes back up when there are enough other loads to wake-up the inverter. For most energy efficient homes this should not be a problem, especially during mid winter. The food will stay cold overnight. WARNING: Editorial comment - On a separate but related note, from my perspective, there appears to wide spread attitude that super expensive refrigerators like the SunFrost are the only reasonable choice in the RE industry. I have nothing against the SunFrost and it has it's place in the RE industry but it seem many people in the industry treat it like a "sacred cow". Modern high efficiency refrigerators like some Maytags, Amanas and Magic Chefs work quite well. Their real-life power consumption is typically consistent with the government energy figures. Their cost is about 1/3 that of a SunFrost. The SunFrost's advertised power consumption figures are significantly less (0.93 kWh vs 0.56 kWh) than what the government found when they tested a RF-16 under the same standard conditions as the off-the-shelf units. I believe the industry, and especially the industry magazines like Home Power are doing a disservice to all of the persons just starting into RE. Much of the industry represents the SunFrost type units as the only choice and that buying one of them is just part of the cost of an RE system. That may have been true 8-10 years ago, but is simply is not the case any more. There are realistic, reasonable options these days. Is the industry "getting set in its ways"? I know this is a poke-in-the-eye to some of the leaders of the RE industry, but I think it is about time that the industry wakes up to this issue. Sincerely, Steve Bell Technical Support, SunWize Technologies Stelle, IL sebpv at stelle.net - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From jay at asis.com Thu Sep 28 11:12:48 2000 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 08:12:48 -0700 Subject: Sunfrost noise [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.272256565-212058698-970076738@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1344881576-951758591-970100043@topica.com> <0.1300002502.524224371-212058698-970103824@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.238569535-212058698-970153968@topica.com> HI Kurt, That I don't know, only that the mesured power was 1.2 kwh day. I'll see if I can find out though. Jay "Kurt Nelson, SunWise" wrote: > jay peltz wrote: > > > > The Magic Chef models CTL1511AEA at 15 cu ft are using 1.2 kwh/day. When I > > worked at AEE, I did talk to a few installers Hawaii, other locations and they > > measured it at the 1.2 kwh day. > > Hey Jay, > > Is the 15 cu ft Magic Chef a manual defrost? Not familar with it but I > have a number of smaller super efficient systems out there that would > notice the increased load of having the inverter booted 24/7 (I assume > this is not factored into daily KWH calculations). I know that industry > wide, there has been a tendency towards ignoring the phantom loads and > increasing the array to accomidate. Works out okay for the most part in > sunny climes, but round here you gotta pay attention to such stuff come > November and December. > > Kurt Nelson > Solutions > > This message brought to you by "those of us against the over-reliance on > inefficient and high emmisions fossil fuel gen-set crowd". > > - - - - - - - > > To send a message: > > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > > > The archive of previous messages: > > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > www.homepower.com > > > > For info contact list moderator by email: > > michael.welch at homepower.com > > ___________________________________________________________ > > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From jay at asis.com Thu Sep 28 11:12:52 2000 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 08:12:52 -0700 Subject: Sunfrost noise [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.272256565-212058698-970076738@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1344881576-951758591-970100043@topica.com> <0.1300002502.524224371-212058698-970103824@topica.com> <0.1300002502.884192458-212058698-970149842@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.268638228-212058698-970153972@topica.com> Hi Steve, You did a better job but that is what I was getting at in my letters. From my calculations the area you live in really is the key. The worse the sun, or resource the more efficient all your loads need to be. In sunny areas such as the southwest, a Magicchef is the same cost or a bit less to buy and power than a Sunfrost. Thanks, jay Steve Bell wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kurt Nelson, SunWise" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 08:17 PM > Subject: Re: Sunfrost noise [RE-wrenches] > > > jay peltz wrote: > > > > > > The Magic Chef models CTL1511AEA at 15 cu ft are using 1.2 kwh/day. > When I > > > worked at AEE, I did talk to a few installers Hawaii, other locations > and they > > > measured it at the 1.2 kwh day. > > > > Hey Jay, > > > > Is the 15 cu ft Magic Chef a manual defrost? Not familar with it but I > > have a number of smaller super efficient systems out there that would > > notice the increased load of having the inverter booted 24/7 (I assume > > this is not factored into daily KWH calculations). I know that industry > > wide, there has been a tendency towards ignoring the phantom loads and > > increasing the array to accomidate. Works out okay for the most part in > > sunny climes, but round here you gotta pay attention to such stuff come > > November and December. > > > > Kurt Nelson > > Solutions > > > > > Hi Kurt, > > With any AC powered refrigerator whether off-the-shelf or a SunFrost there > is the possibility of 24/7 inverter operation, but it is not a requirement > that they operate that way. In fact, many times you need to go to extra > effort to keep them operating 24/7, provided the rest of the home has dealt > with phantom loads. > Here is what I have seen. When the refrig. cycles down (not cooling) the > "base-line" thermostat load is below the "sleep" setting of the inverter, so > the inverter goes to sleep and so does the temp sense circuit of the refrig. > The refrig can not wake back up on it's own because it does not know warming > up. It wakes back up when there are enough other loads to wake-up the > inverter. For most energy efficient homes this should not be a problem, > especially during mid winter. The food will stay cold overnight. > > WARNING: Editorial comment - On a separate but related note, from my > perspective, there appears to wide spread attitude that super expensive > refrigerators like the SunFrost are the only reasonable choice in the RE > industry. I have nothing against the SunFrost and it has it's place in the > RE industry but it seem many people in the industry treat it like a "sacred > cow". Modern high efficiency refrigerators like some Maytags, Amanas and > Magic Chefs work quite well. Their real-life power consumption is typically > consistent with the government energy figures. Their cost is about 1/3 that > of a SunFrost. The SunFrost's advertised power consumption figures are > significantly less (0.93 kWh vs 0.56 kWh) than what the government found > when they tested a RF-16 under the same standard conditions as the > off-the-shelf units. I believe the industry, and especially the industry > magazines like Home Power are doing a disservice to all of the persons just > starting into RE. Much of the industry represents the SunFrost type units as > the only choice and that buying one of them is just part of the cost of an > RE system. That may have been true 8-10 years ago, but is simply is not the > case any more. There are realistic, reasonable options these days. Is the > industry "getting set in its ways"? > I know this is a poke-in-the-eye to some of the leaders of the RE industry, > but I think it is about time that the industry wakes up to this issue. > > Sincerely, > Steve Bell > Technical Support, SunWize Technologies > Stelle, IL > sebpv at stelle.net > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From jay at asis.com Thu Sep 28 11:12:55 2000 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 08:12:55 -0700 Subject: compact floursents in track lighting [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.880679290-951758591-970143831@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1403524555-212058698-970153975@topica.com> Hi John, Thanks I'm ordering a catalog today. Jay "John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind" wrote: > Jay, > Another solution might be a compact fluorescent that does fit. IKEA has > an extremely small 7 watt CFL that has a ballast base not much bigger than > the diameter of a quarter. > > John B. > CVSolar > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From jay at asis.com Thu Sep 28 11:12:58 2000 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 08:12:58 -0700 Subject: fridges? [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1345257473-951758591-970109164@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1127622215-951758591-970153978@topica.com> Hi Kurt, Check out these sites. http://www.energy.ca.gov/efficiency/appliances/refrig-freezers/refrig-freezers.html http://www.energystar.gov/ Should help. jay kurtj12 at aol.com wrote: > does anyone have the latest or know where i can find out who has the most > efficient commercial fridge and how it compares to conserv and sun frost? how > much they cost, how much power they use, and size? i would deeply appreciate > any info anyone has. > thanx > kurt johnson > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunwise at win.bright.net Thu Sep 28 11:16:37 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (Kurt Nelson, SunWise) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 08:16:37 -0700 Subject: Sunfrost noise [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.272256565-212058698-970076738@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1344881576-951758591-970100043@topica.com> <0.1300002502.524224371-212058698-970103824@topica.com> <0.1300002502.884192458-212058698-970149842@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.743409572-951758591-970154197@topica.com> Steve Bell wrote: > > > Hi Kurt, > > With any AC powered refrigerator whether off-the-shelf or a SunFrost there > is the possibility of 24/7 inverter operation, but it is not a requirement > that they operate that way. In fact, many times you need to go to extra > effort to keep them operating 24/7, provided the rest of the home has dealt > with phantom loads. > Here is what I have seen. When the refrig. cycles down (not cooling) the > "base-line" thermostat load is below the "sleep" setting of the inverter, so > the inverter goes to sleep and so does the temp sense circuit of the refrig. Greetings Steve, The frig's I have been using in some RE designs are G.E.'s smaller manual defrost and they, and some others such as "Conservator" brand (and Conserv) use a mechanical thermostat. The G.E.'s use as little as 750 watt hours/day in the case of the 10CF single door unit (ice box inside frig section and runs around 18 degrees F.). They make an 11.5 CF two door unit with seperate freezer section that has a colder freezer section and I'm not sure of the daily use as the client is only there on weekends and hard to monitor. It is probably alittle better than a KW. Interesting about the electronic thermostat. Is there a way to complie a list of frigs that use mechanical vs. electronic thermostats? I have a client with an Amana that has thawed a couple times. I was looking at the possibility that the defrost circuit, not being enough to wake the inverter, might somehow be getting stuck in a mode where the frig compressor wasn't running while not actually defrosting(???)? His frig does usually come on to a SW2512 that's sleeping, but it has thawed a couple times while he was absent from the home for a period. He now defeats the snooze when he leaves the house. I haven't found many clients that can afford the Sunfrost, but know for a fact that those who can are often very happy with their purchase. I also do not believe that they have an electronic thermostat and their ac units will not let a sleeping inverter lie. Kurt Nelson > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From phil at positivenergy.com Thu Sep 28 12:04:22 2000 From: phil at positivenergy.com (Phil Undercuffler) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 09:04:22 -0700 Subject: Sunfrost noise/Propane Fridge [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1643009928-212058698-970083890@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.819796422-951758591-970157062@topica.com> While I will cede the beauty of using a diverting controller to dump excess power to cooling food, my personal experience with a Sibir propane fridge in our home would lead me to buy electric next time around. In NM, propane fridges (even in lousy shape) fetch top dollar prices. In our house, the roar of the burner is often the loudest noise. The burner goes out at random times. The burner does not produce enough heat to make a draft IF properly vented (making them susceptible to backdraft), and I have yet to see one in any home vented at all. The gaskets on my fridge, of unknown vintage, have all the sealing power of, well, nothing. Since I have started working in solar, I dread the calls that begin every heat wave--when a fridge dies, its always a crisis. I have been told that it is impossible to get parts for my Sibir. Great, another disposable appliance! When coupled to a further dependence upon dead dinosaurs, in hindsight I shoulda bought a SunFrost! ---- Original Message ----- From: R. Sparks Scott To: Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 2:44 PM Subject: Re: Sunfrost noise [RE-wrenches] > When running on electric, they are virtually silent It does require periodic defrosting, but that might be more due to the condition of the door seals than the design. > Indoor air pollution: Anybody that doesn't install a petroleum-fueled > appliance in accordance with approved instructions and codes, i.e: venting > it outdoors, is asking for a good dose of CO poisoning! > Payback: This is a hard one, I paid $125 at a flea market. That would be, > uh, $4.80/yr. > Durability: Zero moving parts (except the door!) - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solarjon at netshel.net Thu Sep 28 12:58:56 2000 From: solarjon at netshel.net (Jonathan Hill) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 09:58:56 -0700 Subject: compact floursents in track lighting [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1403524555-212058698-970153975@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.880679290-951758591-970143831@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1403524555-212058698-970153975@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1181188837-951758591-970160336@topica.com> >Hi John, > >Thanks I'm ordering a catalog today. > >Jay > >"John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind" wrote: > >> Jay, >> Another solution might be a compact fluorescent that does fit. IKEA has >> an extremely small 7 watt CFL that has a ballast base not much bigger than >> the diameter of a quarter. >> >> John B. >> CVSolar >> >> - - - - - - - >> To send a message: >> RE-wrenches at topica.com >> >> The archive of previous messages: >> http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ >> >> To unsubscribe send a message to: >> RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com >> >> To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: >> www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html >> >> Hosted by Home Power magazine: >> www.homepower.com >> >> For info contact list moderator by email: >> michael.welch at homepower.com >> ___________________________________________________________ >> T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >> Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics >Hi Jay- Where do you get this catalog? Jon Hill -- ----------------- Sierra Solar Systems 109-N Argall Way Nevada City, CA 95959 tech info and foreign orders: (530) 265-8441 order line: (800) 51-SOLAR (US only) FAX: (530) 265-6151 e-mail: world wide web: Because of the high volume of e-mail to which I respond, please leave _all_ of the previous message (unless it's unbearable) in your reply so I can better remember your original message. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solarjon at netshel.net Thu Sep 28 13:09:03 2000 From: solarjon at netshel.net (Jonathan Hill) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 10:09:03 -0700 Subject: Sunfrost noise/Propane Fridge [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.819796422-951758591-970157062@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1643009928-212058698-970083890@topica.com> <0.1300002502.819796422-951758591-970157062@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1086095986-951758591-970160943@topica.com> > While I will cede the beauty of using a diverting controller to dump >excess power to cooling food, my personal experience with a Sibir propane >fridge in our home would lead me to buy electric next time around. > In NM, propane fridges (even in lousy shape) fetch top dollar prices. >In our house, the roar of the burner is often the loudest noise. The burner >goes out at random times. The burner does not produce enough heat to make a >draft IF properly vented (making them susceptible to backdraft), and I have >yet to see one in any home vented at all. The gaskets on my fridge, of >unknown vintage, have all the sealing power of, well, nothing. > Since I have started working in solar, I dread the calls that begin >every heat wave--when a fridge dies, its always a crisis. I have been told >that it is impossible to get parts for my Sibir. Great, another disposable >appliance! > When coupled to a further dependence upon dead dinosaurs, in hindsight I >shoulda bought a SunFrost! > >---- Original Message ----- >From: R. Sparks Scott >To: >Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 2:44 PM >Subject: Re: Sunfrost noise [RE-wrenches] > > >> >When running on electric, they are virtually silent >It does require periodic defrosting, but that might be more due to the >condition of the door seals than the design. >> Indoor air pollution: Anybody that doesn't install a petroleum-fueled >> appliance in accordance with approved instructions and codes, i.e: >venting >> it outdoors, is asking for a good dose of CO poisoning! >> Payback: This is a hard one, I paid $125 at a flea market. That would be, >> uh, $4.80/yr. >> Durability: Zero moving parts (except the door!) > > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics Phil- I had a Sibir while back till it died (about 10 years average). I experienced the same problem with the burner going out. Once a year nozzle cleaning fixed that. I find the new Servels much better quality than the Sibir, which is no longer sold in the US. Jon Hill -- ----------------- Sierra Solar Systems 109-N Argall Way Nevada City, CA 95959 tech info and foreign orders: (530) 265-8441 order line: (800) 51-SOLAR (US only) FAX: (530) 265-6151 e-mail: world wide web: Because of the high volume of e-mail to which I respond, please leave _all_ of the previous message (unless it's unbearable) in your reply so I can better remember your original message. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ipl at sover.net Thu Sep 28 14:12:33 2000 From: ipl at sover.net (David Palumbo, Independent Power & Light) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:12:33 -0700 Subject: Grundfos SQ ac pumps [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.499867474-212058698-970164753@topica.com> Does anyone have any experience with the Grundfos SQ seies of 115vac submersible water pumps. They are advertised as a slow starting / no surge pump. On page 77 in the Alternative Energy (Applied Power) 2000-2001 catalog is a performance chart which says the 1/3HP SQ will run off of a 800 watt inverter and will produce 1.8 gallons per minute at 40 psi with 100' of head. If we use the pressure tank at a standard 20 to 40 psi range the pump chart says the 1/3HP SQ will pump at 1.8gpm (the low flow rate is very acceptable for this small one person and very modest home). At 120' of lift the chart is blank so I assume the pump will not operate at this lift at 40psi. The well is being drilled next week so we will soon know the static water level. I'm hoping for less than 10' below grade. Even with this high static water level the 1/3HP model looks too close to me as the 40psi in the pressure tank is the equivalent of 92 feet of lift (head) plus the 10' to the water and we're at 112 feet. Can I Run the pressure tank at 10 to 30 psi? If not, that brings us to the 1/2HP SQ pump which will pump at 4 gpm at 40 psi with 120' of head. The question on this pump is will it run on the Exeletech XP 1100 (1100 watt)12v inverter. According to the AEE chart the 1/2HP pump will run on a 1200 watt inverter. So close. Does any one have any experience with the SQ series pumps and know what the actuall draw is? Will the 1/2HP pump draw less if we are operating in the mid range of its performance curve? On a related subject does any one have any experience running a Maytage Neptune Washer on the Exeltech XP 1100? The Staber is not an option for us because of a few negative experiences with them. Anyone know of any good sources for the Grundfos SQ pumps other than AP? Thanks, Dave Palumbo Idependent Power - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From i2p at aol.com Thu Sep 28 15:42:54 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (Don Loweburg, Offline) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 12:42:54 -0700 Subject: Grundfos SQ ac pumps [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1220898612-951758591-970170174@topica.com> In a message dated 09/28/2000 11:13:08 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ipl at sover.net writes: << If not, that brings us to the 1/2HP SQ pump which will pump at 4 gpm at 40 psi with 120' of head. The question on this pump is will it run on the Exeletech XP 1100 (1100 watt)12v inverter. According to the AEE chart the 1/2HP pump will run on a 1200 watt inverter. So close. Does any one have any experience with the SQ series pumps and know what the actuall draw is? Will the 1/2HP pump draw less if we are operating in the mid range of its performance curve? >> I don't have experience with these pumps but caution you not to design too close to the line. Don :L - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From j.lamb at pecorp.com Thu Sep 28 16:21:38 2000 From: j.lamb at pecorp.com (James Lamb, Middle Fork Engineering) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 13:21:38 -0700 Subject: Sunfrost noise [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2126512862-212058698-970172498@topica.com> > Kurt > I bought a new 2 door (top door was for freezer, bottom door was for > refrigerator) cycle defrost 13.4 cubic foot General Electric refrigerator > for $ 285.00 one day sale 7 years ago. This refrigerator uses 2 KWH/DAY > average as is. With modifications I lowered the average daily usage down > to less than 1KWH/Day. > > The cycle defrost refrigerator requires you to defrost the freezer section > only about 3-4 times a year. The freezer has its separate door and is on > top. The refrigerator section is on the bottom with its separate door and > has an evaporator (cooling) coil in it. When the compressor is off, the > temp in the refrigerator section (38 degrees) melts the ice on the coil. > There is a small heater on that coil that turns on automatically when the > compressor is not running. This coil is designed to keep the refrigerator > section defrosted in the worst of conditions. I disconnected it and there > was no frost build up even on hot humid summer days. > > I insulated the inside the freezer section on the non coil area (right and > left side of freezer). I also insulated around the outside of the freezer > and refrigerator. I carefully tilted the evaporator coil on the back of > the refrigerator to increase air flow around it. I also raised the > refrigerator a few inches off the floor for more air flow around it. By > having the freezer on top, cold travels down, so this helps to use the > cold effectively. That's why the old wooded refrigerator require you to > put the ice on top. Note that the placement of the refrigerator affects > usage. An outside wall in winter cuts the usage. When this type of > refrigerator is in a cold room the compressor does not work as much and > the freezer temperature goes up a bit and the Ice Cream gets a little > soft. Insulating the freezer section well helps keep it colder. I also > noticed that the compressor is on the larger size and is louder than most > refrigerators. > > > Question? What are the disadvantages of using a chest freezer as a > refrigerator by installing a series thermostat that sets the temp at 38 > Degrees. I notice that some people open the refrigerator door and feel > like they are shopping for stuff and close it without picking something. A > chest freezer changed to a refrigerator would at least keep the cold air > in for the shoppers. > > Kurt wrote > > The frig's I have been using in some RE designs are G.E.'s smaller > manual defrost and they, and some others such as "Conservator" brand > (and Conserv) use a mechanical thermostat. The G.E.'s use as little as > 750 watt hours/day in the case of the 10CF single door unit (ice box > inside frig section and runs around 18 degrees F.). They make an 11.5 > CF two door unit with seperate freezer section that has a colder freezer > section and I'm not sure of the daily use as the client is only there on > weekends and hard to monitor. It is probably alittle better than a KW. > > Interesting about the electronic thermostat. Is there a way to complie > a list of frigs that use mechanical vs. electronic thermostats? I have > a client with an Amana that has thawed a couple times. I was looking at > the possibility that the defrost circuit, not being enough to wake the > inverter, might somehow be getting stuck in a mode where the frig > compressor wasn't running while not actually defrosting(???)? His frig > does usually come on to a SW2512 that's sleeping, but it has thawed a > couple times while he was absent from the home for a period. He now > defeats the snooze when he leaves the house. > > I haven't found many clients that can afford the Sunfrost, but know for > a fact that those who can are often very happy with their purchase. I > also do not believe that they have an electronic thermostat and their ac > units will not let a sleeping inverter lie. > > Kurt Nelson > > > > - - - - - - - > > To send a message: > > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > > > The archive of previous messages: > > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > > www.homepower.com > > > > For info contact list moderator by email: > > michael.welch at homepower.com > > ___________________________________________________________ > > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > ---------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunwise at win.bright.net Thu Sep 28 18:06:07 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (Kurt Nelson, SunWise) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 15:06:07 -0700 Subject: Sunfrost ac [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.2126512862-212058698-970172498@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1544341972-212058698-970178767@topica.com> Greetings James, Thanks for the info on your GE and some of the tips on improving performance. I recently bought a fan thermostat designed for running furnace fans (small "click" button thermostat, six bucks) and will see if it will improve the efficiency of my GE 10cf frig (TAX10SNXCRWH). They come in many ranges and I'm trying a F110/20 (on at 110 and off at 90F). I plan to mount it along side the compressor on an aluminum "heat sink" and wire it to run a small super efficient muffin fan blowing on the compressor, the above mentioned aluminum thermostat mount, and to channel the air up across the evaporator coil. Be interesting to see what this, and added insulation, does for the frig. It (right out of the box) uses 750 watt/hrs daily in summer time use powered by a U series mod-square Trace. Frig temp is 40 and freezer 18. OOPS - I stumbled verbally in regards to the ac Sunfrost. I ment to say that their ac units (powered by an inverter) WILL let a sleeping inverter lie and power up nicely when the frig calls for cooling. Kurt Nelson - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From kurtj12 at aol.com Thu Sep 28 20:02:09 2000 From: kurtj12 at aol.com (kurtj12 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 17:02:09 -0700 Subject: fridges? [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1051907535-212058698-970185729@topica.com> thanx for all the feedback on efficient fridges. kurt - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From jay at asis.com Thu Sep 28 21:54:31 2000 From: jay at asis.com (jay peltz) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 18:54:31 -0700 Subject: Grundfos SQ ac pumps [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.499867474-212058698-970164753@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.772664313-212058698-970192471@topica.com> Hi David, You can get the Grundfos from any grundfos dealer, they are not "solar" pumps only no surge. The run at very hi rpm and as I understand it, since it takes a while to get up to speed there is no "surge". The specs in the book may be wrong, you can double check with denis ( see below) or your grundfos dealer. I don't recommend running them with a Exeltech as I have heard and seen to many problems with them running motors. I am pretty sure ( talk to Denis Ledbetter at APC ) they run on mod sine ok. I have no experiece with the neptune on the exeltech, love to hear if you do find out though! I am also curious why that model. The other companies ( sears, gibson etc ) are about 1/2 the price, is it that much better? Thanks, jay "David Palumbo, Independent Power & Light" wrote: > Does anyone have any experience with the Grundfos SQ seies of 115vac > submersible water pumps. They are advertised as a slow starting / no surge > pump. On page 77 in the Alternative Energy (Applied Power) 2000-2001 catalog > is a performance chart which says the 1/3HP SQ will run off of a 800 watt > inverter and will produce 1.8 gallons per minute at 40 psi with 100' of > head. > If we use the pressure tank at a standard 20 to 40 psi range the pump chart > says the 1/3HP SQ will pump at 1.8gpm (the low flow rate is very acceptable > for this small one person and very modest home). At 120' of lift the chart > is blank so I assume the pump will not operate at this lift at 40psi. The > well is being drilled next week so we will soon know the static water level. > I'm hoping for less than 10' below grade. Even with this high static water > level the 1/3HP model looks too close to me as the 40psi in the pressure > tank is the equivalent of 92 feet of lift (head) plus the 10' to the water > and we're at 112 feet. Can I Run the pressure tank at 10 to 30 psi? > If not, that brings us to the 1/2HP SQ pump which will pump at 4 gpm at 40 > psi with 120' of head. The question on this pump is will it run on the > Exeletech XP 1100 (1100 watt)12v inverter. According to the AEE chart the > 1/2HP pump will run on a 1200 watt inverter. So close. Does any one have any > experience with the SQ series pumps and know what the actuall draw is? > Will the 1/2HP pump draw less if we are operating in the mid range of its > performance curve? > > On a related subject does any one have any experience running a Maytage > Neptune Washer on the Exeltech XP 1100? The Staber is not an option for us > because of a few negative experiences with them. > > Anyone know of any good sources for the Grundfos SQ pumps other than AP? > > Thanks, > Dave Palumbo > Idependent Power > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cvsolar at aol.com Fri Sep 29 07:17:54 2000 From: cvsolar at aol.com (John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 04:17:54 -0700 Subject: Sunfrost noise/Propane Fridge [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.302315219-212058698-970226274@topica.com> Phil, I tend to agree with you. I bought a SunFrost RF12 about 8 years ago and have never regretted it. Its a 12VDC model and I have had to keep a 12v battery bank and PV's dedicated to it after I upgraded to the SW4024 but it just takes care of itself. Defrost once a year whether it needs it or not and it quietly does its job. I ran it for years on 3 Kyocera 35 watt panels but did have trouble during long cloudy periods. I added 2 80 watt Solarex panels to the 3 Kyoceras and now the batteries never go below 60 or 70%. I recently gave a client a choice of a SunFrost or a Maytag with calculations showing similar total cost of frig & PV,s and they opted for the SunFrost. The numbers are getting closer but the SunFrost is still a better deal in our sun belt by about 10%. A little more insulation in those commercial units and they may start to give SunFrost some competition if they can keep the price down. John CVSolar - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cvsolar at aol.com Fri Sep 29 07:17:57 2000 From: cvsolar at aol.com (John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 04:17:57 -0700 Subject: compact floursents in track lighting [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.559903112-212058698-970226277@topica.com> Jon, IKEA catalog can be ordered via their web site www.IKEA-usa.com or you can call 1-800-747-2191 John B. CVSolar - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From allan at positivenergy.com Fri Sep 29 13:22:33 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 10:22:33 -0700 Subject: Sunfrost noise/Propane Fridge [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1195321312-212058698-970248153@topica.com> John, I agree that the Sun Frost still comes out ahead, but by less each year. It's more and more situation-specific. In our family's case, the economics favored the less-efficient Maytag (at $800+) over the Sun Frost as the dealer cost of more PV beat the dealer cost of the SF. Likewise, I have recommended a Maytag or Magic Chef to a customer because his fridge opening isn't quite wide enough for the odd-size SF, and more PV is cheaper than modifying a cabinet. In a way, given the ~2:1 ratio between the conventional fridges with their 1" insulation thickness, and the SFs, I'm surprised the SFs use as much energy as they do. Allan -----Original Message----- From: John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Date: Friday, September 29, 2000 5:18 AM Subject: Re: Sunfrost noise/Propane Fridge [RE-wrenches] >Phil, > I tend to agree with you. I bought a SunFrost RF12 about 8 years ago and >have never regretted it. Its a 12VDC model and I have had to keep a 12v >battery bank and PV's dedicated to it after I upgraded to the SW4024 but it >just takes care of itself. Defrost once a year whether it needs it or not >and it quietly does its job. I ran it for years on 3 Kyocera 35 watt panels >but did have trouble during long cloudy periods. I added 2 80 watt Solarex >panels to the 3 Kyoceras and now the batteries never go below 60 or 70%. I >recently gave a client a choice of a SunFrost or a Maytag with calculations >showing similar total cost of frig & PV,s and they opted for the SunFrost. >The numbers are getting closer but the SunFrost is still a better deal in our >sun belt by about 10%. A little more insulation in those commercial units >and they may start to give SunFrost some competition if they can keep the >price down. > >John >CVSolar > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From solarbeacon at email.msn.com Fri Sep 29 15:13:35 2000 From: solarbeacon at email.msn.com (Bill Roush, Solar Electric Systems) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 12:13:35 -0700 Subject: fridges? [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1127622215-951758591-970153978@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1536579064-951758591-970254815@topica.com> http://aceee.org also rates the most efficient appliances. Best, Bill Roush Solar Electric Systems of Kansas City, Inc. 13700 W. 108th St. Lenexa, KS 66215 913-338-1939 800-632-9751 913-469-5522fax solarbeacon at email.msn.com www.solarbeacon.com -----Original Message----- From: jay peltz [mailto:jay at asis.com] Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 10:13 AM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Re: fridges? [RE-wrenches] Hi Kurt, Check out these sites. http://www.energy.ca.gov/efficiency/appliances/refrig-freezers/refrig-freeze rs.html http://www.energystar.gov/ Should help. jay kurtj12 at aol.com wrote: > does anyone have the latest or know where i can find out who has the most > efficient commercial fridge and how it compares to conserv and sun frost? how > much they cost, how much power they use, and size? i would deeply appreciate > any info anyone has. > thanx > kurt johnson > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ellison at gisco.net Fri Sep 29 22:17:40 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison, Alternative Energy Systems) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 19:17:40 -0700 Subject: Grundfos SQ ac pumps [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.499867474-212058698-970164753@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1396181173-951758591-970280260@topica.com> David, Pearson and Timmerman is a Grundfos distributor in Watertown, New York 315-782-6080 Later, Bob -----Original Message----- From: David Palumbo, Independent Power & Light [mailto:ipl at sover.net] Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 2:13 PM To: Wrenches Subject: Grundfos SQ ac pumps [RE-wrenches] Does anyone have any experience with the Grundfos SQ seies of 115vac submersible water pumps. They are advertised as a slow starting / no surge pump. On page 77 in the Alternative Energy (Applied Power) 2000-2001 catalog is a performance chart which says the 1/3HP SQ will run off of a 800 watt inverter and will produce 1.8 gallons per minute at 40 psi with 100' of head. If we use the pressure tank at a standard 20 to 40 psi range the pump chart says the 1/3HP SQ will pump at 1.8gpm (the low flow rate is very acceptable for this small one person and very modest home). At 120' of lift the chart is blank so I assume the pump will not operate at this lift at 40psi. The well is being drilled next week so we will soon know the static water level. I'm hoping for less than 10' below grade. Even with this high static water level the 1/3HP model looks too close to me as the 40psi in the pressure tank is the equivalent of 92 feet of lift (head) plus the 10' to the water and we're at 112 feet. Can I Run the pressure tank at 10 to 30 psi? If not, that brings us to the 1/2HP SQ pump which will pump at 4 gpm at 40 psi with 120' of head. The question on this pump is will it run on the Exeletech XP 1100 (1100 watt)12v inverter. According to the AEE chart the 1/2HP pump will run on a 1200 watt inverter. So close. Does any one have any experience with the SQ series pumps and know what the actuall draw is? Will the 1/2HP pump draw less if we are operating in the mid range of its performance curve? On a related subject does any one have any experience running a Maytage Neptune Washer on the Exeltech XP 1100? The Staber is not an option for us because of a few negative experiences with them. Anyone know of any good sources for the Grundfos SQ pumps other than AP? Thanks, Dave Palumbo Idependent Power - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From global at sover.net Sat Sep 30 00:03:05 2000 From: global at sover.net (Jeffrey Wolfe, Global Resources) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 21:03:05 -0700 Subject: Grundfos SQ ac pumps [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1523979414-951758591-970286585@topica.com> David, The SQ pumps are sold by FW Webb, and many other plumbing supply houses. When I called Grundfos (we're looking at one for a project now), they recommended I call Blake Equipment at 603/875-7901 and speak to David Dodge. Blake has stores all around. David seemed helpful, returned calls, and provided info. Way better lead time and turnaround than AEE. I did not compare price, but it looked ok at first glance. >From my knowledge of pumping in general, this product should work slick. Grundfos technical support said they have over 10,000 in the field (a very new product) with less than 1/2% return rate. The "new features" are the permanent magnet motors (more efficient) and the high speed (10750 rpm). High speed is also more efficeint for a pump. The slow start is due to electronics, not spin-up time.They are predicting that the unit will last longer than a regular pump due to soft start being less aggressive on mechanical parts. They also sell an electronic controlled version that makes the pump deliver "almost" contant pressure (varies by +/- 7 psi) which sounds high-end, but might let you go with a smaller pump since there would be less pressure variation. 10 - 30 psi is really low. A one story building would be better, but 10 psi would probably not let water restrictor shower heads work (I guess you just wouldn't need them...) and probably would not give you much of a shower spray in general regardless of type of shower head. Also would fill pots, sink, etc., pretty slow. This kind of pressure is ok for a cabin, or someone who is willing to be different. But it will not be like a traditional well system. We are ending up going to a 230 volt pump. I had really hoped to get away from the transformer, but no go. You also need to put the pump down the hole aways, in order to have some reserve capacity. They like to have the pump below the level that the water enters the well. (More fool proof, and with all the fools out there...) Last word of advice. Never select a pump at the end of the curve, or at the last published value on the table. Too close to the ragged edge for comfort and reliability. Good luck, Jeff ---------- From: David Palumbo, Independent Power & Light[SMTP:ipl at sover.net] Reply To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 2:12 PM To: Wrenches Subject: Grundfos SQ ac pumps [RE-wrenches] Does anyone have any experience with the Grundfos SQ seies of 115vac submersible water pumps. They are advertised as a slow starting / no surge pump. On page 77 in the Alternative Energy (Applied Power) 2000-2001 catalog is a performance chart which says the 1/3HP SQ will run off of a 800 watt inverter and will produce 1.8 gallons per minute at 40 psi with 100' of head. If we use the pressure tank at a standard 20 to 40 psi range the pump chart says the 1/3HP SQ will pump at 1.8gpm (the low flow rate is very acceptable for this small one person and very modest home). At 120' of lift the chart is blank so I assume the pump will not operate at this lift at 40psi. The well is being drilled next week so we will soon know the static water level. I'm hoping for less than 10' below grade. Even with this high static water level the 1/3HP model looks too close to me as the 40psi in the pressure tank is the equivalent of 92 feet of lift (head) plus the 10' to the water and we're at 112 feet. Can I Run the pressure tank at 10 to 30 psi? If not, that brings us to the 1/2HP SQ pump which will pump at 4 gpm at 40 psi with 120' of head. The question on this pump is will it run on the Exeletech XP 1100 (1100 watt)12v inverter. According to the AEE chart the 1/2HP pump will run on a 1200 watt inverter. So close. Does any one have any experience with the SQ series pumps and know what the actuall draw is? Will the 1/2HP pump draw less if we are operating in the mid range of its performance curve? On a related subject does any one have any experience running a Maytage Neptune Washer on the Exeltech XP 1100? The Staber is not an option for us because of a few negative experiences with them. Anyone know of any good sources for the Grundfos SQ pumps other than AP? Thanks, Dave Palumbo Idependent Power - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From telliot at wagonmaker.com Sat Sep 30 13:22:27 2000 From: telliot at wagonmaker.com (Tom Elliot) Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 10:22:27 -0700 Subject: fridges? [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1536579064-951758591-970254815@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1575436334-951758591-970334547@topica.com> How interesting that they don't even list the Conserv or the Sunfrost refrigerators. Tom Elliot Guffey Energy Works Solar Energy Education http://www.wagonmaker.com > http://aceee.org also rates the most efficient appliances. > Best, > Bill Roush > Solar Electric Systems of Kansas City, Inc. > 13700 W. 108th St. > Lenexa, KS 66215 > 913-338-1939 > 800-632-9751 > 913-469-5522fax > solarbeacon at email.msn.com > www.solarbeacon.com - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From roy at four-winds-energy.com Sat Sep 30 18:50:05 2000 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler, Four Winds RE) Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 15:50:05 -0700 Subject: Converting to DC blower motor [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1924200728-951758591-970354205@topica.com> One of the best and worst things about this business we're in....every time we turn around, there's yet another thing we must learn to do our job...ain't it great? Here's what I need to figure out...hopefully with the help from the folks who have done this before. I have a large wood furnace which heats my workshop, office and showroom. A built-in thermostat controls 2- 1/7 horsepower AC blowers which produce a combined air flow of 1300 CFM. Between these 2 power hogs, 360 watt-hours of electrons are murdered. I have wanted to switch to a single 24 VDC motor for some time now but one thing stops me....what do I do about that thermostat? It's rated for AC only and I'm aware of what's supposed to happen to AC contactors when used with DC. So....does the arcing problem that's associated with DC mostly occur at the higher voltages? If so, then I'm OK....if not, what should I use instead? And....any recommendations for a good (read affordable!) DC double shaft motor? Doesn't have to be double shaft....quite likely I'll stick to my original plan and convert this to a single motor/blower. Anyway....I'm open to any and all suggestions! Roy Butler Four Winds RE - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Sat Sep 30 19:35:42 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (R. Sparks Scott) Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 16:35:42 -0700 Subject: Converting to DC blower motor [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1924200728-951758591-970354205@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2033432470-212058698-970356942@topica.com> Roy; You have probably figured out what's needed to convert to the DC motor, so I'll concentrate on the thermostat. If you are concerned that the thermostat contacts are under-rated, or will cause a sustained arc when they open, use the thermostat contacts to control a 24 volt DC contactor which has contact ratings within the current draw of your DC motor. My electric car uses contactors to control power to a 24 Hp 108 VDC motor, so of course, it's possible. The higher the voltage, the more contact opening you need. In the case of the car, they series-connect two poles of the contactor, providing four air gaps to break the circuit. At 24 volts, you don't really need to worry much until you start drawing some serious current, in excess of 20-30 amps, I'd say. The best case design would be to use solid-state switching, or even a PWM (pulse width modulated) speed control. While such a device is probably expensive to purchase, constructing one is not very hard if you have electronic skills. For your motor, be sure to check out C&H Sales for surplus DC motor and blowers. The prices are reasonable, and the have a huge selection, online at . Good luck -S - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From windy at dankoffsolar.com Sun Oct 1 15:38:47 2000 From: windy at dankoffsolar.com (Windy Dankoff, Dankoff Solar) Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 12:38:47 -0700 Subject: Converting to DC blower motor [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1924200728-951758591-970354205@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1924200728-951758591-970354205@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1737756351-212058698-970429127@topica.com> Roy said: >... I have a large wood furnace which heats my >workshop, office and showroom. A built-in thermostat controls 2- 1/7 >horsepower AC blowers which produce a combined air flow of 1300 CFM. >Between these 2 power hogs, 360 watt-hours of electrons are murdered. I >have wanted to switch to a single 24 VDC motor for some time now but one >thing stops me....what do I do about that thermostat? It's rated for AC >only and I'm aware of what's supposed to happen to AC contactors when used >with DC. If your AC thermostat is in the primary (power) circuit to the motor, and it uses an ordinary moving-contact mechanical switch mechanism, then you can probably use it with no problem. Apply this rule that I have followed succesfully since pre-inverter days: Amps rating at 125VAC = Amps rating at 24VDC or less. At 48V, amps rating would be half. In other words, the arc of DC is thought to be of greater intensity than than of AC, but only at equal voltage. At the lower voltage, it's about equal. If you aren't sure about your particular thermostat, consult your Grainger catalog for "line voltage thermostats" (rated for some amps at 125VAC) or for their little snap disc thermostats. Some of these devices have DC ratings, which will confirm for you the relationship that I have stated above. >And....any recommendations for a good (read affordable!) DC double >shaft motor? Doesn't have to be double shaft....quite likely I'll stick to >my original plan and convert this to a single motor/blower. > Anyway....I'm open to any and all suggestions! Surplus Center catalog and C & H Sales catalog have various DC motors. Also, I am happy to supply any of the motors that we use on our DC pumps. Ours are too big for your blow, but we've used them for countless other applications -- fans, blowers, belt-driven machinery of all kinds, and .... Windy -- =========================== From the solar powered office of Windy Dankoff, President =========================== Dankoff Solar Products, Inc. Wholesale distributor of solar-electric equipment Manufacturer & distributor of solar water pumps 2810 Industrial Rd. Santa Fe, NM 87505 (505) 473-3800 FAX 473-3830 E-mail: info at dankoffsolar.com SEE OUR INFORMATIVE WEB SITE AT: http://www.dankoffsolar.com =========================== To contact Windy Dankoff directly: Most days I am at my home office e-mail: windy at dankoffsolar.com tel/fax: (505) 466-0059 ~ amateur radio KE5HV ~ =========================== - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From freepower at freepower.co.nz Sun Oct 1 18:48:19 2000 From: freepower at freepower.co.nz (Carl Emerson) Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 15:48:19 -0700 Subject: Small scale Biomass units. [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1924200728-951758591-970354205@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1737756351-212058698-970429127@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1106384890-212058698-970440499@topica.com> Gidday Folks... Anyone know of a commercially available Biomass power or heat generating unit of a size that might contribute to the energy or water heating requirement for a single house on a small farm ?? -- Regards, Carl Emerson Manager FREEPOWER LTD. "Harnessing Natural Energy" AUCKLAND 356 East Coast Road, Mairangi Bay, P.O. Box 68-247, AUCKLAND, New Zealand. Voice +64 9 478-0404 Mobile 021-633999 Cellfax 021-2919399 Fax +64 9 478-0405 Email emerson at freepower.co.nz - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From i2p at aol.com Sun Oct 1 18:53:59 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (Don Loweburg, Offline) Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 15:53:59 -0700 Subject: Converting to DC blower motor [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1387922149-212058698-970440839@topica.com> In a message dated 09/30/2000 3:50:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time, roy at four-winds-energy.com writes: << I'm aware of what's supposed to happen to AC contactors when used with DC. >> Heavier arching burns them out. You could slave the thermostat trough a DC relay with rated contacts.or try it as is and see how long the thermostat lasts- assuming it's cheap to replace. DL - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From kurtj12 at aol.com Mon Oct 2 17:43:41 2000 From: kurtj12 at aol.com (kurtj12 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2000 14:43:41 -0700 Subject: lead in maine [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1222809145-212058698-970523021@topica.com> i have a lead in northern maine for someone who wants a hybrid system that is 20 miles off the grid to run 50 seasonal homes and 5 year round homes. this could be a huge project. the contact is kevin niland and his e-mail is ksnkpn at aol.com please let me know if anyone is interested so i can stop looking. kurt johnson the solar guys - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From global at sover.net Tue Oct 3 07:37:51 2000 From: global at sover.net (Jeffrey Wolfe, Global Resources) Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 04:37:51 -0700 Subject: lead in maine [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.729574689-212058698-970573071@topica.com> We would be happy to partner with someone on the engineering / design / specification, etc., of this, but northern Maine is a bit far for an entire install. (Actually, northern Maine is just plain a bit far...) Jeff ---------- From: kurtj12 at aol.com[SMTP:kurtj12 at aol.com] Reply To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Sent: Monday, October 02, 2000 5:43 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: lead in maine [RE-wrenches] i have a lead in northern maine for someone who wants a hybrid system that is 20 miles off the grid to run 50 seasonal homes and 5 year round homes. this could be a huge project. the contact is kevin niland and his e-mail is ksnkpn at aol.com please let me know if anyone is interested so i can stop looking. kurt johnson the solar guys - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From freepower at freepower.co.nz Tue Oct 3 07:51:40 2000 From: freepower at freepower.co.nz (Carl Emerson) Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 04:51:40 -0700 Subject: Solar Hot Water lead in California [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.729574689-212058698-970573071@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.479729498-951758591-970573900@topica.com> Hullo folks... Who would like this solar hot water lead in California ?? =================================== Subject: Fwd: hot water Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 23:15:09 EDT From: DMBAKKE at aol.com To: moreinfo at freepower.co.nz My email is DMBakke at aol.com I have 9 people in my household. Two electric hot water tanks 50 gallons each. I live in northern California, rural, some frost in the winter. Hot summers. How can I reduce my hot water electric bill without affecting hot water usage? We use hot water a lot. Regards, Derrick Bakke ============================= Bit far away for me to deal with !! -- Regards, Carl Emerson Manager FREEPOWER LTD. "Harnessing Natural Energy" AUCKLAND 356 East Coast Road, Mairangi Bay, P.O. Box 68-247, AUCKLAND, New Zealand. Voice +64 9 478-0404 Mobile 021-633999 Cellfax 021-2919399 Fax +64 9 478-0405 Email emerson at freepower.co.nz - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From tom at ecs-solar.com Tue Oct 3 08:27:30 2000 From: tom at ecs-solar.com (tom) Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 05:27:30 -0700 Subject: wrenches list and insurance [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.344354391-951758591-970576050@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 3594 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ozsolar at ipa.net Tue Oct 3 09:30:09 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 06:30:09 -0700 Subject: lead in maine [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1517102118-212058698-970579809@topica.com> This sounds like a job for the Wrench Hall. Who else is interested? Travis Creswell Ozark Solar ---------- >From: "Jeffrey Wolfe, Global Resources" >To: "'RE-wrenches at topica.com'" >Subject: RE: lead in maine [RE-wrenches] >Date: Tue, Oct 3, 2000, 6:37 AM > >We would be happy to partner with someone on the engineering / design / >specification, etc., of this, but northern Maine is a bit far for an entire >install. (Actually, northern Maine is just plain a bit far...) > >Jeff > >---------- >From: kurtj12 at aol.com[SMTP:kurtj12 at aol.com] >Reply To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Sent: Monday, October 02, 2000 5:43 PM >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Subject: lead in maine [RE-wrenches] > >i have a lead in northern maine for someone who wants a hybrid system that >is >20 miles off the grid to run 50 seasonal homes and 5 year round homes. this >could be a huge project. the contact is kevin niland and his e-mail is >ksnkpn at aol.com >please let me know if anyone is interested so i can stop looking. >kurt johnson >the solar guys > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From allan at positivenergy.com Tue Oct 3 13:08:08 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 10:08:08 -0700 Subject: wrenches list and insurance [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1788716203-212058698-970592888@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 5472 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wrmiller at slonet.org Tue Oct 3 17:49:58 2000 From: wrmiller at slonet.org (William Miller) Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 14:49:58 -0700 Subject: wrenches list and insurance [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.344354391-951758591-970576050@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.755087577-951758591-970609798@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 4244 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cvsolar at aol.com Tue Oct 3 23:23:04 2000 From: cvsolar at aol.com (John Blittersdorf, Cent. VT Solar & Wind) Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 20:23:04 -0700 Subject: lead in maine [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1824239096-951758591-970629784@topica.com> Jeff, I would join you in the "Wrench Hall" if you needed installing capability and collaboration on the design. I could gear up for a remote install but do not have the financial or management resources to spearhead the project. John Blittersdorf Central Vermont Solar and Wind - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From freepower at freepower.co.nz Wed Oct 4 18:51:38 2000 From: freepower at freepower.co.nz (Carl Emerson) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 15:51:38 -0700 Subject: Trace SW temperature compensation [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1824239096-951758591-970629784@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.929750031-212058698-970699898@topica.com> Hullo there... Does anyone have detailed information on the way the SW inverters compensate for battery temperature. I need to know the relationship between temperature change and the degree of compensation made during charge and float. -- Regards, Carl Emerson Manager FREEPOWER LTD. "Harnessing Natural Energy" AUCKLAND 356 East Coast Road, Mairangi Bay, P.O. Box 68-247, AUCKLAND, New Zealand. Voice +64 9 478-0404 Mobile 021-633999 Cellfax 021-2919399 Fax +64 9 478-0405 Email emerson at freepower.co.nz - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From kurtj12 at aol.com Thu Oct 5 19:57:41 2000 From: kurtj12 at aol.com (kurtj12 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 16:57:41 -0700 Subject: refridgeration [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1835299517-951758591-970790261@topica.com> Click here: FridgeFreeze "The Ice Age is Over!" - Portable 12v and 110 FridgeFreeze wrenches here's a very efficient fridge/freezer i ran across on the web while looking for efficient fridges. it looks like it is very well built. it wouldn't work for everyone because of its size, but i thought some of you might be interested in seeing it. kurt johnson the solar guys - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From richard.perez at homepower.com Thu Oct 5 20:50:41 2000 From: richard.perez at homepower.com (Richard Perez, Home Power magazine) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 17:50:41 -0700 Subject: refridgeration [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1835299517-951758591-970790261@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1835299517-951758591-970790261@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1800641797-212058698-970793441@topica.com> Hello Kurt and Wrenches Thanks for this tip, I'll check it out. Contrary to what many of you may think, I read every Wrench posting. Since I'm not really a Wrench anymore, but a lard-assed office worker, I try to keep my postings to a minimum. However, we recently had a refrigeration experience that some of you may find useful. Karen's mom recently moved from New Orleans to Medford, OR. We set her up in a house which needed a new fridge/freezer. Joe Schwartz did some homework and selected a model for her. It's a Maytag with auto defrost (no possibility of easily defeating this and not even desirable in this case). It's 18 cubic feet and has no water connections (ice trays only and no cold water urinating out the front door). Very nice interior layout that puts our Sun Frost RF-19 to shame. Energy consumption is 1,180 watt-hours per day. It cost slightly less than $800. Fridges from conventional makers are getting just about as efficient as specialty models and cost is only 1/3 as much. Richard > Click here: FridgeFreeze >"The Ice Age is Over!" - Portable 12v and 110 FridgeFreeze > >wrenches >here's a very efficient fridge/freezer i ran across on the web while looking >for efficient fridges. it looks like it is very well built. it wouldn't work >for everyone because of its size, but i thought some of you might be >interested in seeing it. >kurt johnson >the solar guys ------------------------------------ Richard Pérez Home Power PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA Tele: 530-475-3179 FAX: 530-475-0836 Subscriptions: 800-707-6585 mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com Web: http://www.homepower.com - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Fri Oct 6 01:03:17 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (R. Sparks Scott) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 22:03:17 -0700 Subject: refridgeration [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1800641797-212058698-970793441@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1835299517-951758591-970790261@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1835299517-951758591-970790261@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1737707556-212058698-970808597@topica.com> >Since I'm not really a Wrench anymore, but a lard-assed office >worker, I try to keep my postings to a minimum. Richard; Glad to see that the boss let you out of your cubicle long enough to send us a message! -S - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ellison at gisco.net Sat Oct 7 23:11:04 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison, Alternative Energy Systems) Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 20:11:04 -0700 Subject: dc code [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1134832297-951758591-970974664@topica.com> Can anyone tell me where in the book (NEC) can I find the line that says that DC ground wires do not have to be in the conduit with the Pos and Neg wires as is required in an AC system? I know it is there but I need to give an inspector the info to find it. Thanks, Bob Ellison - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ecoelec at rof.net Sun Oct 8 00:40:16 2000 From: ecoelec at rof.net (Pat Kiernan, Eco Electric, Inc.) Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 21:40:16 -0700 Subject: DC Equipment Grounding [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.784365385-212058698-970980016@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 1538 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kurtj12 at aol.com Sun Oct 8 01:06:31 2000 From: kurtj12 at aol.com (kurtj12 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 22:06:31 -0700 Subject: refridgeration [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1572102256-212058698-970981591@topica.com> richard this maytag fridge you refered to, does it have a seperate door for the freezer and if so is it top or bottom and what is the model #? thanks kurt johnson the solar guys - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From richard.perez at homepower.com Sun Oct 8 13:52:58 2000 From: richard.perez at homepower.com (Richard Perez, Home Power magazine) Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2000 10:52:58 -0700 Subject: refrigeration [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1572102256-212058698-970981591@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1572102256-212058698-970981591@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1747725266-951758591-971027578@topica.com> Hello Kurt This Maytag has two doors, with the freezer on top. Model number on the ID plate inside the freezer is MTB1986DE and the plate inside the refrigerator says MTB1956DEW. The insides of this Maytag are super--humidity controls on the vegetable and fruit compartments, egg compartment, butter compartment, and a crank up/down shelf for odd sized bottles. Richard >richard >this maytag fridge you refered to, does it have a seperate door for the >freezer and if so is it top or bottom and what is the model #? >thanks >kurt johnson >the solar guys ------------------------------------ Richard Pérez Home Power PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA Tele: 530-475-3179 FAX: 530-475-0836 Subscriptions: 800-707-6585 mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com Web: http://www.homepower.com - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From jackwest at alaska.net Mon Oct 9 11:36:31 2000 From: jackwest at alaska.net (Jack West, Talkeetna AE) Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 08:36:31 -0700 Subject: Trace SW temperature compensation [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1824239096-951758591-970629784@topica.com> <0.1300002502.929750031-212058698-970699898@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.592994940-951758591-971105791@topica.com> Hi Carl, I believe it is -.03VDC per degree F. from 77 degrees. Thus 67 degrees F raises charge voltages .3 VDC (-10 X -.03) Jack West Talkeetna AE - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Mon Oct 9 15:59:54 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 12:59:54 -0700 Subject: lead in maine [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.966329513-951758591-971121594@topica.com> Is anyone following up on this? It would be a nice job for someone and they sure as heck won't buy solar unless someone tries to sell it to them! Travis Creswell Ozark Solar ---------- >From: "Jeffrey Wolfe, Global Resources" >To: "'RE-wrenches at topica.com'" >Subject: RE: lead in maine [RE-wrenches] >Date: Tue, Oct 3, 2000, 6:37 AM > >We would be happy to partner with someone on the engineering / design / >specification, etc., of this, but northern Maine is a bit far for an entire >install. (Actually, northern Maine is just plain a bit far...) > >Jeff > >---------- >From: kurtj12 at aol.com[SMTP:kurtj12 at aol.com] >Reply To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Sent: Monday, October 02, 2000 5:43 PM >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Subject: lead in maine [RE-wrenches] > >i have a lead in northern maine for someone who wants a hybrid system that >is >20 miles off the grid to run 50 seasonal homes and 5 year round homes. this >could be a huge project. the contact is kevin niland and his e-mail is >ksnkpn at aol.com >please let me know if anyone is interested so i can stop looking. >kurt johnson >the solar guys > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From global at sover.net Mon Oct 9 16:51:00 2000 From: global at sover.net (Jeffrey Wolfe, Global Resources) Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 13:51:00 -0700 Subject: lead in maine [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1918156402-951758591-971124660@topica.com> We've made preliminary contact. Don't know if there is a job here yet, and neither do they! I've given them a list of preliminary info needed, then we'll try to sort it out for a concept design and estimate. If it goes (IF.......) I'm sure we'll be looking for partners and travellers, and have already spoken with a couple. What a Homepower article this would be.... Jeff Jeffery D. Wolfe, P.E. Global Resource Options, LLP A Woman-Owned Vermont Limited Liability Partnership 4 Kibling Hill Road P.O. Box 51 Strafford, VT 05072 802/765-4632 802/765-9983 (Fax) global at sover.net www.globalresourceoptions.com ---------- From: Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar[SMTP:ozsolar at ipa.net] Reply To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 3:59 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Re: lead in maine [RE-wrenches] Is anyone following up on this? It would be a nice job for someone and they sure as heck won't buy solar unless someone tries to sell it to them! Travis Creswell Ozark Solar ---------- >From: "Jeffrey Wolfe, Global Resources" >To: "'RE-wrenches at topica.com'" >Subject: RE: lead in maine [RE-wrenches] >Date: Tue, Oct 3, 2000, 6:37 AM > >We would be happy to partner with someone on the engineering / design / >specification, etc., of this, but northern Maine is a bit far for an entire >install. (Actually, northern Maine is just plain a bit far...) > >Jeff > >---------- >From: kurtj12 at aol.com[SMTP:kurtj12 at aol.com] >Reply To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Sent: Monday, October 02, 2000 5:43 PM >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com >Subject: lead in maine [RE-wrenches] > >i have a lead in northern maine for someone who wants a hybrid system that >is >20 miles off the grid to run 50 seasonal homes and 5 year round homes. this >could be a huge project. the contact is kevin niland and his e-mail is >ksnkpn at aol.com >please let me know if anyone is interested so i can stop looking. >kurt johnson >the solar guys > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From allan at positivenergy.com Mon Oct 9 17:35:14 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 14:35:14 -0700 Subject: refrigeration [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1325522702-951758591-971127314@topica.com> Hello Kurt, We are using one in our off-grid home, if you have other questions. I think I'll take the Brand Meter home again for a coupla days... Allan at PozEe. -----Original Message----- From: Richard Perez, Home Power magazine To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Date: Sunday, October 08, 2000 11:53 AM Subject: Re: refrigeration [RE-wrenches] >Hello Kurt > >This Maytag has two doors, with the freezer on top. Model number on >the ID plate inside the freezer is MTB1986DE and the plate inside the >refrigerator says MTB1956DEW. > >The insides of this Maytag are super--humidity controls on the >vegetable and fruit compartments, egg compartment, butter >compartment, and a crank up/down shelf for odd sized bottles. > >Richard > >>richard >>this maytag fridge you refered to, does it have a seperate door for the >>freezer and if so is it top or bottom and what is the model #? >>thanks >>kurt johnson >>the solar guys > >------------------------------------ >Richard Pérez >Home Power >PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA >Tele: 530-475-3179 >FAX: 530-475-0836 >Subscriptions: 800-707-6585 >mailto:richard.perez at homepower.com >Web: http://www.homepower.com > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From allan at positivenergy.com Tue Oct 10 20:52:57 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 17:52:57 -0700 Subject: Presidential crap [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1717560393-212058698-971225577@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 1483 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Tue Oct 10 21:46:01 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (R. Sparks Scott) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 18:46:01 -0700 Subject: Presidential crap [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1717560393-212058698-971225577@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1811928663-212058698-971228761@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 305 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cpae1 at aol.com Tue Oct 10 23:41:58 2000 From: cpae1 at aol.com (Frank Fowler, Crystal Pines Alt. Energy ) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 20:41:58 -0700 Subject: Presidential crap [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.749893255-951758591-971235718@topica.com> Goofy Allan, There must be a lot of "goofy" wrenches out there who have some form of solar energy connected with their lives I'm sure. Me being one of them. SUNcerely, Frank Fowler Crystal Pines Alternative Energy 4408 Pine Cluster Ln. Yankee Hill, CA. 95965-9754 530-532-1972 Fax# 530-532-1359 We are located in the Sierra foothills just 30 miles southeast of Chico, CA. "Living off grid with products we market, install and service" www.solarenergy-alt.com - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Wed Oct 11 15:14:33 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 12:14:33 -0700 Subject: Presidential crap [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1122269544-951758591-971291673@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/alternative Size: 1110 bytes Desc: not available URL: From allan at positivenergy.com Wed Oct 11 23:15:31 2000 From: allan at positivenergy.com (allan) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 20:15:31 -0700 Subject: Presidential crap [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1796315058-212058698-971320531@topica.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: multipart/mixed Size: 3395 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wrmiller at slonet.org Thu Oct 12 04:58:18 2000 From: wrmiller at slonet.org (William Miller) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 01:58:18 -0700 Subject: About the PVGFP [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1931622131-951758591-971341098@topica.com> Friends: I've put in several of the PVGFP circuit breakers from Trace. I have some questions about installing this unit: There is a white lead, about 2/0, that connects to the isolated negative buss and a green lead that looks slightly smaller, that connects to the bonded buss. In the manual it says that these leads can be lengthened or shortened but can not be replaced. It goes on to say that these leads "have been factory installed and torqued to UL standards." Furthermore the manual says, "NEC does not allow field connections of two wires (over 12 AWG) in one pressure terminal." Inspection of these units shows that there are two leads, one of the heavy ones described above, and a smaller lead in each lug on the 1 amp pole of the breaker. What I get out of this is that a factory can put two wires in one lug but a field installer cannot. It can be awkward to have to splice onto one or both of these leads and the temptation is to replace the lead with a longer one. If the torque is so critical, I do not understand why the manual says, "Periodic tightening of all wire connections... is highly recommended." Also, why is there such heavy gauge wire connected to a 1 amp circuit breaker? Am I required to add wire of the same gauge? Comments are requested. On the same subject, does anyone think it odd that these breakers cannot be purchased with an enclosure? I accidentally discovered that a Murray LC008DS load center is a great enclosure for the PVGFP, either in the Nema 1 or Nema 3R style. One just removes the interior and screws or rivets in the GFP breaker. For the 3 pole or less breakers (actual poles) one can use the breaker KOs as they are. For the 4 pole model, you have to knock out on both sides of the center and cut out the center web and then supply a small plate to block the side of the larger opening. What are the rest of you doing for enclosures for the PVGFPs? Also, I called Trace to ask what to use for an isolated negative buss. They suggested a DCBB on a piece of wood! I did some research and found that the Ilsco PDB-24-500-1 power distribution block fit (snugly) into a DC250 and worked well as an isolated negative. I can send a photo of anyone is interested. Which brings me to another complaint, that of how small the DC250 enclosures are... But I'll save that for another post. Thanks in advance for your comments. William Miller __________________________________________________________________ William Miller SLO Communications: Communications and Power Systems Consulting Chief Engineer, KCBX: NPR and PRI for San Luis Obispo and Santa Barbara PO Box 50, Santa Margarita, CA 93453 Voice :805-438-5600 Fax: 805-438-4607 VMail: 805-546-4875 email: wrmiller at slonet.org License No. C-10-773985 _____________________________________________________________ Compatibility: Word processor: WP7, Word 7 Spreadsheet: Quatro Pro 7, Excel 5 CAD: Microstation 95, DXF, Autocad V12 DWG, Visio 4.1T _____________________________________________________________ "I stand by all the misstatements that I've made." Dan Quayle __________________________________________________________________ - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From i2p at aol.com Thu Oct 12 12:09:41 2000 From: i2p at aol.com (Don Loweburg, Offline) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 09:09:41 -0700 Subject: About the PVGFP [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1830128787-951758591-971366981@topica.com> In a message dated 10/12/2000 2:16:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time, wrmiller at slonet.org writes: << What I get out of this is that a factory can put two wires in one lug but a field installer cannot. >> I think you got it right. The whole buisiness is just another reason not to install modules on the roof of a "dwelling". This is a costly nuisance with no benefit. I also note the 2/0 cable feeding a 1 amp breaker! Don Loweburg - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From econnect at snowcrest.net Thu Oct 12 12:30:00 2000 From: econnect at snowcrest.net (Bob-O Schultze, Electron Connection) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 09:30:00 -0700 Subject: About the PVGFP [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1830128787-951758591-971366981@topica.com> References: <0.1300002502.1830128787-951758591-971366981@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2093971645-951758591-971368200@topica.com> On the same note, my opinion of the PVGFP is that it is a product developed (and it took years...) to fill a specification written into the Code for which there was NEVER a need in the first place. Another reason to give J.W. and his cronies a big hug. Bob-O >n a message dated 10/12/2000 2:16:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time, >wrmiller at slonet.org writes: > ><< What I get out of this is that a factory can put two wires in one lug but a > field installer cannot. >> > >I think you got it right. The whole buisiness is just another reason not to >install modules on the roof of a "dwelling". This is a costly nuisance with >no benefit. I also note the 2/0 cable feeding a 1 amp breaker! > >Don Loweburg - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sebpv at stelle.net Thu Oct 12 12:34:05 2000 From: sebpv at stelle.net (Steve Bell) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 09:34:05 -0700 Subject: About the PVGFP [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.1830128787-951758591-971366981@topica.com> <0.1300002502.2093971645-951758591-971368200@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1894948979-212058698-971368445@topica.com> Bob-O, I agree !00%. Steve Bell SunWize, Stelle Office ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob-O Schultze, Electron Connection" To: Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 11:30 AM Subject: Re: About the PVGFP [RE-wrenches] > On the same note, my opinion of the PVGFP is that it is a product > developed (and it took years...) to fill a specification written into > the Code for which there was NEVER a need in the first place. Another > reason to give J.W. and his cronies a big hug. > Bob-O > > >n a message dated 10/12/2000 2:16:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > >wrmiller at slonet.org writes: > > > ><< What I get out of this is that a factory can put two wires in one lug but a > > field installer cannot. >> > > > >I think you got it right. The whole buisiness is just another reason not to > >install modules on the roof of a "dwelling". This is a costly nuisance with > >no benefit. I also note the 2/0 cable feeding a 1 amp breaker! > > > >Don Loweburg > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Thu Oct 12 12:41:12 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 09:41:12 -0700 Subject: About the PVGFP [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.881667697-951758591-971368872@topica.com> William, Sorry no answers, just a rant. I really think that the PVGFP is some sort of joke. I don't do roof mounts on dwellings because of that product. Note that is required on a dwelling and a dwelling is defined as where someone sleeps. >From what I understand it is supposed to protect the array from "faulting" and burning your house down. It is not to protect people from shocks as the 1 amp threshold is well beyond what is considered to potentially fatal to people. Here my gripe. Lets say the array faults (will someone tell me how this happens) and the PVGFP does its job and opens the circuit. Obviously, the fault is upstream of the PVGFP so the fault is still up on the roof or your attic busily burning your house down! Maybe I'm not seeing the whole picture (I never do). In industrial applications services of 1200 amps or greater are required to have GFP on the mains. The closer you are to the utilities transformer (especially paralleled banks) the greater potential you have for short circuit disasters Pretty impressive equipment by the way. Field adjustable to whatever amp and time limits you desire. I understand the need for that equipment as I have seen what happens when a 100 hp motor faults and the overloads were oversized. Regular circuit breakers aren't fast enough to catch the fault and before they trip everything melts down and the where to motor was is now a smoking black hole. Everyday breakers have max current interrupting ratings of 10,000 amps but the these GFP devices are rated at 100,000 amps and higher. Travis Creswell Ozark Solar - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From phil at positivenergy.com Thu Oct 12 13:30:35 2000 From: phil at positivenergy.com (Phil Undercuffler) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 10:30:35 -0700 Subject: About the PVGFP [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.881667697-951758591-971368872@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.2054952089-951758591-971371835@topica.com> We usually steer our clients away from roof mounts because of penetrations, panels last longer than even the best roofs, reduced output in hot installations, you can adjust angles, etc, but the GFP is the kicker. When I mention cost of that option, I rarely have to speak further. We have used the dwelling wording to justify putting an array on a power system SHED. I also never really understood what the darn thing did, or why we need it. In a training seminar sponsored by Dankoff Solar, John Wiles described the old 600 volt industrial arrays at Carizzo et al (where the Electric companies proved conclusively that solar didn't work) that would develop an arc between the cels and the frame, thereby energizing the entire structure. God save the dog that peed on that post. This, in John's oppinion, justified the creation of the GFP solution. To me the solution is easier--don't run an array at 600 volts! RE: the burning down the house, its sobering to remember that the original purpose of the code is to save buildings, not lives. If you have the misfortune of inserting yourself into a circuit, the breaker is not designed to trip until long after your heart has fibrillated, only before the wire has overheated and started a fire. Only in recent times has the code begun to address end user safety. Phil "just trying to keep the red wires from touching the white wires" Undercuffler @Positive Energy ---- Original Message ----- From: Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar I really think that the PVGFP is some sort of > joke. I don't do roof mounts on dwellings because of that product. Note > that is required on a dwelling and a dwelling is defined as where someone > sleeps. > > >From what I understand it is supposed to protect the array from "faulting" > and burning your house down. It is not to protect people from shocks as the > 1 amp threshold is well beyond what is considered to potentially fatal to > people. > > Here my gripe. > > Lets say the array faults (will someone tell me how this happens) and the > PVGFP does its job and opens the circuit. Obviously, the fault is upstream > of the PVGFP so the fault is still up on the roof or your attic busily > burning your house down! > - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From toddcory at jps.net Thu Oct 12 16:54:14 2000 From: toddcory at jps.net (Todd Cory, Bald Mt. Solar) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 13:54:14 -0700 Subject: marine version of the SW2512 [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.881667697-951758591-971368872@topica.com> <0.1300002502.2054952089-951758591-971371835@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.252103769-212058698-971384054@topica.com> Hello, I have a friend that (I think) has a marine version of the 2512 "SW2512MC" in his 5th wheel travel trailer. I was checking it out and it appears there is no menu option to allow the inverter to sell back to the grid... the menu option is missing under heading number 9. Does anyone have experience with this model and is the software is set up differently to not allow this mode of operation, or what if any is the work around to allow this? There is a good possibility that this system will be used as an initial residence on future purchased property and the option for selling might be wanted at that time. I thought the only difference on the marine version was no internal bond between the negative and neutral connections. Thanks for the feedback. Todd -- Todd Cory KE6SXS toddcory at jps.net Bald Mountain Solar P.O. Box 689 Mt. Shasta, Ca. 96067 (530) 926-1079 - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From bob at energyoutfitters.com Thu Oct 12 17:19:03 2000 From: bob at energyoutfitters.com (Bob Maynard, Energy Outfitters) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 14:19:03 -0700 Subject: marine version of the SW2512 [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.881667697-951758591-971368872@topica.com> <0.1300002502.2054952089-951758591-971371835@topica.com> <0.1300002502.252103769-212058698-971384054@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1244947195-951758591-971385543@topica.com> Hi Todd, The MC designation means "Motor Coach". It does use a different software than the residential SW's and thus has features designed for coach operation rather than residential. Unfortunately I don't have the experience to tell you if a work around is possible or if a software replacement is an option.. Regards, Bob Maynard Energy Outfitters 800-GO-SOLAR "Todd Cory, Bald Mt. Solar" wrote: > Hello, > > I have a friend that (I think) has a marine version of the 2512 "SW2512MC" in > his 5th wheel travel trailer. I was checking it out and it appears there is no > menu option to allow the inverter to sell back to the grid... the menu option is > missing under heading number 9. > > Does anyone have experience with this model and is the software is set up > differently to not allow this mode of operation, or what if any is the work > around to allow this? There is a good possibility that this system will be used > as an initial residence on future purchased property and the option for selling > might be wanted at that time. I thought the only difference on the marine > version was no internal bond between the negative and neutral connections. > > Thanks for the feedback. > > Todd > -- > Todd Cory > KE6SXS > toddcory at jps.net > Bald Mountain Solar > P.O. Box 689 > Mt. Shasta, Ca. 96067 > (530) 926-1079 > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunwise at win.bright.net Thu Oct 12 17:25:23 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (Kurt Nelson, SunWise) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 14:25:23 -0700 Subject: About the PVGFP [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.881667697-951758591-971368872@topica.com> <0.1300002502.2054952089-951758591-971371835@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1517507802-951758591-971385923@topica.com> Phil Undercuffler wrote: > > We usually steer our clients away from roof mounts because of > penetrations, panels last longer than even the best roofs, reduced output in > hot installations, you can adjust angles, etc, but the GFP is the kicker. > When I mention cost of that option, I rarely have to speak further. > We have used the dwelling wording to justify putting an array on a power > system SHED. > Greetings all, I have heard of one interpretation of the code as being roofs only and that if the panels are for instance mounted on the side wall of the dwelling, the PVGFI ruling does not apply???? Kurt Nelson > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sunwise at win.bright.net Thu Oct 12 17:58:31 2000 From: sunwise at win.bright.net (Kurt Nelson, SunWise) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 14:58:31 -0700 Subject: DC contactor [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.589037005-951758591-971387911@topica.com> Greetings Wrenches, I am making some modifications to a couple grid-tied systems as per Sharkey's recommendations for improving on the SW's efficiency (essentially disconnect AC1 at night and until battery voltage is back up above Trace's bulk voltage setting via solar). Question if I may. I am having difficulty locating a contactor with 24VDC coil that has contact ratings for continuous duty, 60 Amps, 120vac (I'm assuming code would frown on using a two pole 30A power relay with two poles in parallel). Any suggestions? Other thoughts on the subject also appreciated. Kurt Nelson - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From phil at positivenergy.com Thu Oct 12 18:10:28 2000 From: phil at positivenergy.com (Phil Undercuffler) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 15:10:28 -0700 Subject: About the PVGFP [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.881667697-951758591-971368872@topica.com> <0.1300002502.2054952089-951758591-971371835@topica.com> <0.1300002502.1517507802-951758591-971385923@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1807144590-951758591-971388628@topica.com> I pulled out the Good Book, and 690-5 Ground-Fault Protection sez "Roof-mounted dc pv arrays located on dwellings shall be provided with dc ground-fault protection to reduce fire hazards." So, although the AHJ can determine that day is night, I will look anew at hanging them off the sides! ----- Original Message ----- From: Kurt Nelson, SunWise To: Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 4:25 PM Subject: Re: About the PVGFP [RE-wrenches] > Greetings all, > I have heard of one interpretation of the code as being roofs only and > that if the panels are for instance mounted on the side wall of the > dwelling, the PVGFI ruling does not apply???? > > Kurt Nelson - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cpae1 at aol.com Thu Oct 12 19:00:37 2000 From: cpae1 at aol.com (Frank Fowler, Crystal Pines Alt. Energy ) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 16:00:37 -0700 Subject: About the PVGFP [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.972734285-212058698-971391637@topica.com> I'm with Don on the not mounting on roofs of homes. Big pain in the butt, plus having to use a ground fault device that costs too much and isn't needed anyway. I think Travis has a good point about your attic burning up, but at least the ground fault worked. SUNcerely, Frank Fowler Crystal Pines Alternative Energy 4408 Pine Cluster Ln. Yankee Hill, CA. 95965-9754 530-532-1972 Fax# 530-532-1359 We are located in the Sierra foothills just 30 miles southeast of Chico, CA. "Living off grid with products we market, install and service" www.solarenergy-alt.com - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ozsolar at ipa.net Thu Oct 12 19:08:26 2000 From: ozsolar at ipa.net (Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 16:08:26 -0700 Subject: Free Electricity! [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1683029528-951758591-971392106@topica.com> Looks like we are all out of business. These people are selling free-electricity generators. http://www.free-electricity.net/ I just this add saw my local Big Nickel and looks like I 'll being telling you all fare well as the future of solar just ended. Well, anyway, since I'm too dumb to quit trying to sell solar and get a real job (regular hours, a paycheck). I thought I warn you all that this crap is springing up and you might want to keep your eyes open. I haven't ran into a Tesla society member for a while but it's a pretty good bet this this the basis of this stuff. Combine it with multi-level marketing and wal-la ... behold free electricity and a chance to make money! Travis and don't forget "there's no limit to what we can accomplish if no one care's who gets the credit" Anonymous Miner (after a group of miners blew up a damn whose back water was fixing to cover the entrance to their mine) - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From cpae1 at aol.com Thu Oct 12 19:29:07 2000 From: cpae1 at aol.com (Frank Fowler, Crystal Pines Alt. Energy ) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 16:29:07 -0700 Subject: Free Electricity! [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1653394728-212058698-971393347@topica.com> Travis, Looks like you need to be grid-connected to qualify for this "free electricity" thing. What about us poor schmucks who live miles from the nearest power pole? SUNcerely, Frank Fowler Crystal Pines Alternative Energy 4408 Pine Cluster Ln. Yankee Hill, CA. 95965-9754 530-532-1972 Fax# 530-532-1359 We are located in the Sierra foothills just 30 miles southeast of Chico, CA. "Living off grid with products we market, install and service" www.solarenergy-alt.com - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From vtsolar1 at together.net Thu Oct 12 19:42:14 2000 From: vtsolar1 at together.net (Kirk Herander, VT Solar) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 16:42:14 -0700 Subject: DC contactor [RE-wrenches] References: <0.1300002502.589037005-951758591-971387911@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.566208418-212058698-971394134@topica.com> Kurt, Square D makes a circuit breaker which can be turned on and off by a 24 vdc signal. You could perhaps "load shed" the Trace using the auxillary relays via battery voltage. I don't have the part #s at hand, but will find and post them if you're interested. I'm pretty sure they're made in a 60 amp flavor. Kirk, Vt. Solar "Kurt Nelson, SunWise" wrote: > Greetings Wrenches, > > I am making some modifications to a couple grid-tied systems as per > Sharkey's recommendations for improving on the SW's efficiency > (essentially disconnect AC1 at night and until battery voltage is back > up above Trace's bulk voltage setting via solar). Question if I may. I > am having difficulty locating a contactor with 24VDC coil that has > contact ratings for continuous duty, 60 Amps, 120vac (I'm assuming code > would frown on using a two pole 30A power relay with two poles in > parallel). Any suggestions? Other thoughts on the subject also > appreciated. > > Kurt Nelson > > - - - - - - - > To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > > The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > > To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > > Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > > For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com > ___________________________________________________________ > T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From sharkey at mrsharkey.com Thu Oct 12 20:00:53 2000 From: sharkey at mrsharkey.com (R. Sparks Scott) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 17:00:53 -0700 Subject: DC contactor [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.589037005-951758591-971387911@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.576362027-212058698-971395253@topica.com> Kurt; You do have some options here, but a few questions first: 1) Do you want/need the full 60 amp pass through on the Trace? If the grid intertie and battery charge current is all that you need to handle on the AC1 input, you could breaker it for something like 20 amps and use a smaller relay. If you wanted the full current available, consider also using AC2 in with a separate breaker in the event you needed to lay a heavy charge on the batteries, etc. You didn't mention a generator. Obviously, if this input is already used, it's not a option to use AC2. 2) Do you have to switch the neutral along with the hot leg? My system has the neutral running straight to the neutral buss inside the Trace. Don't know the code on that. You'd get by with one less set of contacts. I looked in the Grainger catalog, and the only thing available in a 60 amp current range is mercury relays, and they are all 120/240 volt coils. You could use one of these with another 24 volt relay to switch the 120 volt coil voltage... not elegant, but it would work. If I had to have the full current, I'd probably go for a solid-state relay set-up. Newark Electronics has a large selection, some of them are "double pole", and operate on DC control voltages from 3 to 48 VDC. They feature quite a few that will handle 75 amps RMS and 1000 amps surge. Let me know if you want to know more about this, I'll comb the catalog more carefully to get you some part #'s and $'s. The solid state relays have zero-crossover switching, no arcs. In larger current systems, they may need an inexpensive heat sink to stay cool. -S - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ellison at gisco.net Thu Oct 12 21:04:59 2000 From: ellison at gisco.net (Bob Ellison, Alternative Energy Systems) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 18:04:59 -0700 Subject: wall mounting panels? [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.1807144590-951758591-971388628@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.976517222-212058698-971399099@topica.com> So if I am reading this correctly, if the panels are on a wall that silly assed disconnect is not needed? This was discussed today concerning a small install that I am doing with a renewable energy group in the area. I wanted to wall mount it as panels can get in 6-8' deep snow drifts in the area. Wall mount would help that problem at least. On another note, I was working on a big battery today 600 AH @ 80 volts and happened to be holding the ends of the cables. I got a tingle that startled me, no harm just startled. It is in a mobile machine, hut it got my attention and made me to think... Later, Bob -----Original Message----- From: Phil Undercuffler [mailto:phil at positivenergy.com] Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 6:10 PM To: RE-wrenches at topica.com Subject: Re: About the PVGFP [RE-wrenches] I pulled out the Good Book, and 690-5 Ground-Fault Protection sez "Roof-mounted dc pv arrays located on dwellings shall be provided with dc ground-fault protection to reduce fire hazards." So, although the AHJ can determine that day is night, I will look anew at hanging them off the sides! ----- Original Message ----- From: Kurt Nelson, SunWise To: Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 4:25 PM Subject: Re: About the PVGFP [RE-wrenches] > Greetings all, > I have heard of one interpretation of the code as being roofs only and > that if the panels are for instance mounted on the side wall of the > dwelling, the PVGFI ruling does not apply???? > > Kurt Nelson - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From ksu3463760 at aol.com Thu Oct 12 21:43:34 2000 From: ksu3463760 at aol.com (ksu3463760 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 18:43:34 -0700 Subject: DC contactor [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1316476522-951758591-971401414@topica.com> Ken, I installed a unique job and used a 75 amp automatic transfer swich made by todd engineering. I paid a little extra for them to make some custom modifications for me, and it worked out great. 1-800-hey-todd. Good luck! Kris Sutton Light Energy Systems Concord, CA - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From wrmiller at slonet.org Fri Oct 13 02:59:50 2000 From: wrmiller at slonet.org (William Miller) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 23:59:50 -0700 Subject: DC contactor [RE-wrenches] In-Reply-To: <0.1300002502.589037005-951758591-971387911@topica.com> Message-ID: <0.1300002502.1358946235-212058698-971420390@topica.com> Kurt: I may have some large, used solid state relays that I believe would work. Let me know if you are interested. They were in service briefly. William Miller At 02:58 PM 10/12/00 -0700, you wrote: >Greetings Wrenches, > >I am making some modifications to a couple grid-tied systems as per >Sharkey's recommendations for improving on the SW's efficiency >(essentially disconnect AC1 at night and until battery voltage is back >up above Trace's bulk voltage setting via solar). Question if I may. I >am having difficulty locating a contactor with 24VDC coil that has >contact ratings for continuous duty, 60 Amps, 120vac (I'm assuming code >would frown on using a two pole 30A power relay with two poles in >parallel). Any suggestions? Other thoughts on the subject also >appreciated. > >Kurt Nelson > >- - - - - - - >To send a message: > RE-wrenches at topica.com > >The archive of previous messages: > http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ > >To unsubscribe send a message to: > RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com > >To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: > www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html > >Hosted by Home Power magazine: > www.homepower.com > >For info contact list moderator by email: > michael.welch at homepower.com >___________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 >Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > __________________________________________________________________ William Miller SLO Communications: Communications and Power Systems Consulting Chief Engineer, KCBX: NPR and PRI for San Luis Obispo and Santa Barbara PO Box 50, Santa Margarita, CA 93453 Voice :805-438-5600 Fax: 805-438-4607 VMail: 805-546-4875 email: wrmiller at slonet.org License No. C-10-773985 _____________________________________________________________ Compatibility: Word processor: WP7, Word 7 Spreadsheet: Quatro Pro 7, Excel 5 CAD: Microstation 95, DXF, Autocad V12 DWG, Visio 4.1T _____________________________________________________________ "I stand by all the misstatements that I've made." Dan Quayle __________________________________________________________________ - - - - - - - To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com The archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/ To unsubscribe send a message to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com To check out the other RE-Wrench participants: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html Hosted by Home Power magazine: www.homepower.com For info contact list moderator by email: michael.welch at homepower.com ___________________________________________________________ T O P I C A The Email You Want. http://www.topica.com/t/16 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics From bill_loesch at compuserve.com Fri Oct 13 08:35:58 2000 From: bill_loesch at compuserve.com (Bill Loesch, Saint Louis Solar) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 05:35:58 -0700 Subject: marine version of the SW2512 [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: <0.1300002502.693829411-212058698-971440558@topica.com> RE-wrenches said: >I have a friend that (I think) has a marine version of the 2512 "SW2512MC" in his 5th wheel travel trailer. I was checking it out and it appears there is no menu option to allow the inverter to sell back to the grid... the menu option is missing under heading number 9.< Todd, My considerable investigation and experience with the 4024MC (Motor Coach as Bob previously explained) can also be identified by the user menu heading 3 Revision 4.01