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What about the PV circuits that leave the combiner and are ran on or in a building to the CC
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<div dir="ltr">Jeremy Rodriguez
<div>Solar Installation / <span style="font-size: 13pt;">Design Expert </span></div>
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<div>All Solar, Inc.
<div>1453 M St<br>
<div>Penrose Colorado 81240</div>
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<div>Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. </div>
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<blockquote type="cite">On Feb 1, 2022, at 4:07 PM, Brian Mehalic <brian@solarenergy.org> wrote:<br>
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<div dir="ltr">\ufeff For a ground mount PV system with a DC combiner, the PV source circuits are not in or on a building so RS doesn\u2019t apply to them. And the definition of a charge controller in Art. 100 is in its relationship to batteries/storage, not really the
charging source - fundamentally it\u2019s there to protect the storage/batteries, so it\u2019s best considered part of that system, not the PV system (and over the last several cycles nearly all references to charge control/lers have been moved out of 690).
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<div dir="ltr">Brian</div>
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<blockquote type="cite">On Feb 1, 2022, at 3:15 PM, Bradley Bassett <bbassett2@gmail.com> wrote:<br>
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<div>"A switch, outside of the building, <span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">opening the PV circuit to the power electronics, and </span>functioning as the pv system disco and the rapid shutdown initiation device, should be all that is required."</div>
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That is what I have found most inspectors will accept, but not all. A strict reading of the code does come to the same conclusion that William comes to, and some inspectors will require that. The code is not very specific on where the PV system disconnect should
go. It seems to be mostly accepted to be on the PV side of the charge control, but when I read the code strictly it seems to me it should be on the battery side of the charge control since it is only a PV device. Fortunately the PV side is more accepted because that
makes things much easier.
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<div>What I'm still having trouble with is the requirement for breaking both pos and neg legs in the PV system disconnect unless solidly grounded which most systems are not (690.13(E)). I see that most installers do not break both poles, but only the positive
leg, which is of course easier and less expensive. I've quoted the use of dual pole breakers when possible, but OutBack does not really call for that always, and if you ask about their 2 pole 300V breakers they (and Carling) don't say they can be used that
way. And if you do, you have to run the wires in opposite directions for polarity. I've asked for clarification but have not received it yet. Then there are the high voltage charge controls like Schneider, where often one uses the SqD HU361, which can be wired
in various ways to meet the 600V requirement. It can be wired one pole for up to 18A Isc for PV, or up to 30A if two poles in series, or one pos and one neg pole in the circuit. The Schneider RS Disco does break both poles, one of the few devices that make
it clear. I'm curious what others are doing.</div>
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<div>Brad</div>
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<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Feb 1, 2022 at 11:23 AM Brian Mehalic <<a href="mailto:brian@solarenergy.org">brian@solarenergy.org</a>> wrote:<br>
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<div dir="auto">Sorry, forgot to state my previous comment was in regards to a ground-mount. <br>
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<div dir="ltr">Brian</div>
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<blockquote type="cite">On Feb 1, 2022, at 12:19 PM, William Miller <<a href="mailto:william@millersolar.com" target="_blank">william@millersolar.com</a>> wrote:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(0,51,0)">Ray:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(0,51,0)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(0,51,0)">Thanks for that input. I was hoping I was wrong. I looked for that discussion in the archives but could not find it.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(0,51,0)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(0,51,0)">William</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(0,51,0)"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,"sans-serif";color:rgb(0,51,0)">Miller Solar</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,"sans-serif";color:rgb(0,51,0)">17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,"sans-serif";color:rgb(0,51,0)">805-438-5600</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,"sans-serif";color:rgb(0,51,0)"><a href="http://www.millersolar.com/" target="_blank">www.millersolar.com</a></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,"sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,"sans-serif""> RE-wrenches [mailto:<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Ray<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 1, 2022 10:11 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems</span></p>
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<p> Ground mounts do NOT require RSS. We hashed this out years ago on the Wrenches list, when NEC 2017 came out.</p>
<p>See Figure 690.1(B) Note (2): <i>" The PV system disconnect in these diagrams separates the PV system from all other systems".</i></p>
<p>Thus, the PV disconnect is defined as the transition point from the PV system to all other systems, like battery or inverter systems. The installer/ designer decides where to put that disconnect. I usually put it on the wall before it goes into the building,
and I have never had an inspector question that. </p>
<p>Thanks,</p>
<pre>Ray Walters</pre>
<pre>Remote Solar</pre>
<pre>303 505-8760</pre>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On 2/1/22 10:06 AM, William Miller wrote:</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(153,51,102)">Jay:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(153,51,102)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(153,51,102)">Here is the text from 2017:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(153,51,102)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(153,51,102)">690.12 Rapid Shutdown of PV Systems on Buildings. PV</span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(153,51,102)">system circuits installed on or in buildings shall include a rapid</span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(153,51,102)">shutdown function to reduce shock hazard for emergency</span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(153,51,102)">responders in accordance with 690.12(A) through (D).</span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(153,51,102)"> </span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(153,51,102)">Exception: Ground mounted PV system circuits that enter buildings, of</span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(153,51,102)">which the sole purpose is to house PV system equipment, shall not be</span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(153,51,102)">required to comply with 690.12.</span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(153,51,102)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(153,51,102)">The wording is interesting. The requirement is directed at \u201cPV system circuits\u2026\u201d, not PV arrays. The passage does not specify where the PV feeding those circuits is
located, it just addresses where the circuits are, specifically \u201cin or on a building.\u201d</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(153,51,102)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(153,51,102)">The only circuits that are exempt are those feeding a building that serves only one purpose, to house PV equipment. For circuits that enter building with other uses\u2014homes,
garages, barns, workshops, etc.-- it would seem there is a requirement to have rapid shutdown systems (RSS).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(153,51,102)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(153,51,102)">Reading through the rest of the section, I don\u2019t see any language that gets us out of the requirement to reduce voltages to less than 80 volts within 30 seconds inside
the array boundary, as in module level shutdown, regardless of roof-top or ground-mount. Although the 2020 code includes some differing language, I don\u2019t see it as exempting ground mount systems.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(153,51,102)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(153,51,102)">The moral of the story is this: For ground-mounts: either install RSS or put your equipment (inverters, charge controllers, batteries, BOS) in a separate building housing
only that equipment.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(153,51,102)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(153,51,102)">I don\u2019t necessarily like the requirement, but I think it exists. Jay, or anyone, please, please tell me I am reading this incorrectly.
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(153,51,102)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(153,51,102)">By the way, regarding battery circuits, here is a quote from a post by Bill Brooks on March 16, 2016:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(153,51,102)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(153,51,102)">In the 2017 NEC, we were very careful to carve out all batteries and loads,</span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(153,51,102)">that were previously part of PV systems, and place them in their own</span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(153,51,102)">articles.</span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(153,51,102)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(153,51,102)">I have not read through the battery sections of the code to verify this, I am taking Bill at his word.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(153,51,102)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(153,51,102)">William Miller</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(153,51,102)"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,"sans-serif";color:rgb(153,51,102)">Miller Solar</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,"sans-serif";color:rgb(153,51,102)">17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,"sans-serif";color:rgb(153,51,102)">805-438-5600</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,"sans-serif";color:rgb(153,51,102)"><a href="http://www.millersolar.com/" target="_blank">www.millersolar.com</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,"sans-serif";color:rgb(153,51,102)">CA Lic. 773985</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif";color:rgb(153,51,102)"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(153,51,102)"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,"sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,"sans-serif""> Jay [mailto:<a href="mailto:jay.peltz@gmail.com" target="_blank">jay.peltz@gmail.com</a>]
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<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 1, 2022 6:07 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:william@millersolar.com" target="_blank">william@millersolar.com</a>; RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">2017 code has a specific exception/clarification for ground mount solar that it does not need RS. </p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">It\u2019s in the first line after 690.12</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Jay</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt">On Feb 1, 2022, at 12:13 AM, William Miller <<a href="mailto:william@millersolar.com" target="_blank">william@millersolar.com</a>> wrote:</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Tahoma,"sans-serif"">\ufeff</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">Jerry:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">Yes it is required. Rapid Shutdown: NEC 690.12. All buildings except dedicated solar buildings. Read it and weep.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">William</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">Miller Solar</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">805-438-5600</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"><a href="http://www.millersolar.com/" target="_blank">www.millersolar.com</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">CA Lic. 773985</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,"sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,"sans-serif""> Jerry Shafer [mailto:<a href="mailto:jerrysgarage01@gmail.com" target="_blank">jerrysgarage01@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, January 31, 2022 7:21 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> William Miller; RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">William</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Are you sure RSD is required on a non habitable building, historically its not required. Now that being said we use fire raptor with the best results, yes it takes an extra conduite and might require a button and power supply depending
on inverter application.</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Jerry</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Jan 31, 2022, 9:57 AM William Miller <<a href="mailto:william@millersolar.com" target="_blank">william@millersolar.com</a>> wrote:</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif"">Friends:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif"">It is quite rare for us to install off-grid systems on roof-tops. We have one coming up with about 20kW on a large barn roof. This will be our first off-grid with a module-level rapid shutdown
requirement. I see no exemptions from RSS for off-grid systems in the code. I have looked at the options and this is what I have found:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif"">1.</span><span style="font-size:7pt">
</span><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif"">Fire Raptor</span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif"">2.</span><span style="font-size:7pt">
</span><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif"">Tigo TS4-F</span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif"">3.</span><span style="font-size:7pt">
</span><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif"">AC coupling with micro-inverters or optimizers</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif"">No one of these approaches seems ideal. The fire raptor requires extra wiring for control leads. The Tigo requires a wireless control system which worries me about reliability. With AC Coupling
systems floating the proposed AGM batteries may be awkward. Furthermore, with AC coupled systems one cannot charge batteries unless the mini-grid is operational, a big problem.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif"">Have any of you implemented module-level RSS on a battery-based inverter system? I looked in the archives and found no threads that apply. Thank in advance.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif"">William Miller</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif""> </span></p>
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