<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto">A switch, outside of the building, <span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">opening the PV circuit to the power electronics, and </span>functioning as the pv system disco and the rapid shutdown initiation device, should be all that is required. <br><br><div dir="ltr">Brian</div><div dir="ltr"><br><blockquote type="cite">On Feb 1, 2022, at 11:43 AM, Christopher Warfel <cwarfel@entech-engineering.com> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr">\ufeff
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<p><font size="4">That was my understanding too, but the language
Jay has from 2017 (and I confirmed in 2020) reads different. I
was positive ground mounted arrays did not need to comply with
RSS. The bogus argument made by the businesses influencing the
CMP, and by a few mercenaries supposedly representing
firefighter concerns was explicitly for roof mounted systems
going through its history. Chris</font><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/1/2022 1:11 PM, Ray wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:18063b7a-6bf3-9ddc-e997-1dc64710b5b0@solarray.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<p> Ground mounts do NOT require RSS. We hashed this out years
ago on the Wrenches list, when NEC 2017 came out.</p>
<p>See Figure 690.1(B) Note (2): <i>" The PV system disconnect in
these diagrams separates the PV system from all other
systems".</i></p>
<p>Thus, the PV disconnect is defined as the transition point from
the PV system to all other systems, like battery or inverter
systems. The installer/ designer decides where to put that
disconnect. I usually put it on the wall before it goes into
the building, and I have never had an inspector question that. <br>
</p>
<p>Thanks,<br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760</pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/1/22 10:06 AM, William Miller
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:625c5135422d4310be0382b6e3d8025f@mail.gmail.com">
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#993366">Jay:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#993366"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#993366">Here
is the text from 2017:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#993366"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#993366">690.12
Rapid Shutdown of PV Systems on Buildings. PV</span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#993366">system
circuits installed on or in buildings shall include a
rapid</span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#993366">shutdown
function to reduce shock hazard for emergency</span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#993366">responders
in accordance with 690.12(A) through (D).</span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#993366"> </span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#993366">Exception:
Ground mounted PV system circuits that enter buildings,
of</span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#993366">which
the sole purpose is to house PV system equipment, shall
not be</span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#993366">required
to comply with 690.12.</span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#993366"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#993366">The
wording is interesting. The requirement is directed at
\u201cPV system circuits\u2026\u201d, not PV arrays. The passage does
not specify where the PV feeding those circuits is
located, it just addresses where the circuits are,
specifically \u201cin or on a building.\u201d</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#993366"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#993366">The
only circuits that are exempt are those feeding a building
that serves only one purpose, to house PV equipment. For
circuits that enter building with other uses\u2014homes,
garages, barns, workshops, etc.-- it would seem there is a
requirement to have rapid shutdown systems (RSS).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#993366"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#993366">Reading
through the rest of the section, I don\u2019t see any language
that gets us out of the requirement to reduce voltages to
less than 80 volts within 30 seconds inside the array
boundary, as in module level shutdown, regardless of
roof-top or ground-mount. Although the 2020 code includes
some differing language, I don\u2019t see it as exempting
ground mount systems.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#993366"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#993366">The
moral of the story is this: For ground-mounts: either
install RSS or put your equipment (inverters, charge
controllers, batteries, BOS) in a separate building
housing only that equipment.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#993366"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#993366">I
don\u2019t necessarily like the requirement, but I think it
exists. Jay, or anyone, please, please tell me I am
reading this incorrectly. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#993366"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#993366">By
the way, regarding battery circuits, here is a quote from
a post by Bill Brooks on March 16, 2016:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#993366"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#993366">In
the 2017 NEC, we were very careful to carve out all
batteries and loads,</span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#993366">that
were previously part of PV systems, and place them in
their own</span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#993366">articles.</span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#993366"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#993366">I
have not read through the battery sections of the code to
verify this, I am taking Bill at his word.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#993366"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#993366">William
Miller</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#993366"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#993366">Miller
Solar</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#993366">17395
Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#993366">805-438-5600</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#993366"><a href="http://www.millersolar.com/" moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:blue">www.millersolar.com</span></a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#993366">CA
Lic. 773985</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#993366"> </span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#993366"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
Jay [mailto:<a href="mailto:jay.peltz@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">jay.peltz@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 1, 2022 6:07 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:william@millersolar.com" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">william@millersolar.com</a>;
RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for
Off-grid systems</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">2017 code has a specific
exception/clarification for ground mount solar that it
does not need RS. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">It\u2019s in the first line after 690.12</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Jay</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">On Feb 1,
2022, at 12:13 AM, William Miller <<a href="mailto:william@millersolar.com" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">william@millersolar.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">\ufeff</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Jerry:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Yes
it is required. Rapid Shutdown: NEC 690.12. All
buildings except dedicated solar buildings. Read it
and weep.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">William</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Miller
Solar</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">17395
Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">805-438-5600</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><a href="http://www.millersolar.com/" moz-do-not-send="true">www.millersolar.com</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">CA
Lic. 773985</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
Jerry Shafer [mailto:<a href="mailto:jerrysgarage01@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">jerrysgarage01@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, January 31, 2022 7:21 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> William Miller; RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for
Off-grid systems</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">William</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Are you sure RSD is required on a
non habitable building, historically its not
required. Now that being said we use fire raptor
with the best results, yes it takes an extra
conduite and might require a button and power supply
depending on inverter application.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Jerry</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Jan 31, 2022, 9:57 AM
William Miller <<a href="mailto:william@millersolar.com" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">william@millersolar.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Friends:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">It is
quite rare for us to install off-grid systems
on roof-tops. We have one coming up with
about 20kW on a large barn roof. This will be
our first off-grid with a module-level rapid
shutdown requirement. I see no exemptions
from RSS for off-grid systems in the code. I
have looked at the options and this is what I
have found:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p class="m8583279663636586131msolistparagraph"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">1.</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt"> </span><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Fire
Raptor</span></p>
<p class="m8583279663636586131msolistparagraph"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">2.</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt"> </span><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Tigo
TS4-F</span></p>
<p class="m8583279663636586131msolistparagraph"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">3.</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt"> </span><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">AC
coupling with micro-inverters or optimizers</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">No one of
these approaches seems ideal. The fire raptor
requires extra wiring for control leads. The
Tigo requires a wireless control system which
worries me about reliability. With AC
Coupling systems floating the proposed AGM
batteries may be awkward. Furthermore, with
AC coupled systems one cannot charge batteries
unless the mini-grid is operational, a big
problem.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Have any
of you implemented module-level RSS on a
battery-based inverter system? I looked in
the archives and found no threads that apply.
Thank in advance.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">William
Miller</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
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