<div dir="ltr">Hi All, <div>I talked to Sol-Ark again yesterday and thought this was certainly worth sharing:</div><div>For this particular design, there is a whole house generator. For generators over 10kw (this one is 13kw), they recommend keeping the generator in its existing ATS, and feeding it in through the grid connection. So when grid is up, grid power will be available, and when the grid is down, then the inverter can start the generator for generator power if need be.</div><div><br></div><div>This then frees up the generator input for the AC coupled solar. With only the AC coupled solar on the GEN input, there is better tracking of the solar on the monitoring platform, because there is a designated input for it. Plus, with a firmware update that they just released, the inverter can now open the GEN input when it calls for the generator. So essentially, the inverter is now responsible for cutting off the solar input when the generator is on. </div><div><br></div><div>Cheers, </div><div>Dave</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 9:06 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <<a href="mailto:offgridsolar@sti.net">offgridsolar@sti.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><p>Thanks! I thought this was for Offgrid and that was my mistake.</p>
<p>Will it run a 15A table saw without losing power, or was that just too much expertise? I will wait 3 years on anything that is suppose to replace what I already use. I have a low opinion of the all in one for Offgrid anyways. Especially a non low frequency design. Maybe time will change my opinion. Thanks for the info!</p>
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<pre><strong><span style="font-size:small">Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
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text 209 813 0060</span></strong></pre>
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<p>On Fri, 7 May 2021 17:48:59 -0700, Jeff Clearwater <<a href="mailto:jeffc@villagepowerdesign.com" target="_blank">jeffc@villagepowerdesign.com</a>> wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding-left:5px;border-left:2px solid rgb(16,16,255);margin-left:5px;width:100%"> Dave A. - Sol-Arks'<span style="font-weight:bold"> "GEN" breaker</span> can be used for 1 of 3 operations only - <span style="font-weight:bold">Generator, AC Coupling OR Smart Load</span> (Load Shedding) So when you are grid-interactive (which takes up your GRID breaker) and you have PV and a Generator - the way to go is to have no AC Coupling - put the Grid and Gen where they belong and <span style="font-weight:bold">enjoy the high efficiency and smart control of DC Coupling, Time of Use control (for the Genny,the Grid and the Batteries)</span> - all in the mid to high 90's efficiency that the Sol-Ark provides.<br> <br> I know <span style="font-weight:bold">Dave T</span> that you already have an installed Enphase system that probably needs to be Rapid Shutdown compliant as well AND that you have a whole house genny - however - I still would take a strong look at the economic tradeoffs of rewiring the array to DC - (could install Tigo RS) - and splitting the whole house Gen output to the Sol-Ark and probably existing Transfer switch. We are just saying - now you are utilizing your equipment to the max! May not be economically feasible labor and additional hardware wise in this situation. But I surely would do the math and look at that tradeoff seriously - perhaps give that option to your customer to make the economic decision - would result in long term happy customer and most energy utilized with least fuel costs.<br> <br> I'll let that case rest! Gees! all you asked for was some relay advice! See what you get with this List!? too much expertise! :)<br> <br> Have fun,<br> <br> Jeff C.<br> Village Power Design<br> <br> <br> <span> </span><br>
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<div style="display:inline-block;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;width:48%;text-align:right"><span style="color:rgb(144,154,164)"><span style="padding-left:6px">May 7, 2021 at 3:25 PM</span></span></div>
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<p>I do not know much about Sol-Arc, but one can AC couple and DC couple with a Radian or XW. The genset is on the genset input where it belongs.</p>
<p>For Offgrid AC coupling is just another way to damage a battery or genset that does not need to be there. I suppose in a really large microgrid with many houses and a skilled person on site, it could be used as a second best method to DC coupling everything.</p>
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<div><strong><span style="font-size:small">Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar<br>"we go where powerlines don't"<br><a href="http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/" target="_blank">http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/</a><br>e-mail <a href="mailto:offgridsolar@sti.net" target="_blank">offgridsolar@sti.net</a><br>text 209 813 0060</span></strong></div>
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<p>On Fri, 7 May 2021 12:21:14 -0400, Jason Szumlanski <a href="mailto:jason@floridasolardesigngroup.com" target="_blank"><jason@floridasolardesigngroup.com></a> wrote:</p>
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<div style="display:inline-block;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;width:48%;text-align:right"><span style="color:rgb(144,154,164)"><span style="padding-left:6px">May 7, 2021 at 9:21 AM</span></span></div>
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<div dir="auto">I like the idea of some small amount of AC Coupled PV for off-grid systems when there is a known consistent daytime load. Around here the worst case scenario involves afternoon air conditioning in summer, so some WSW-facing AC coupled PV is an efficient way to cover that load and go into darkness with full batteries.
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<div dir="auto">If I understand things correctly, with a Sol-Ark you can simultaneously do AC coupling on the GEN input and DC coupling on the MPPTs and use the GRID input for the generator. </div>
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<div dir="auto">Jason</div>
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<div style="display:inline-block;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;width:48%;text-align:right"><span style="color:rgb(144,154,164)"><span style="padding-left:6px">May 7, 2021 at 8:41 AM</span></span></div>
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<div dir="ltr">I would certainly agree with you all that AC coupled for off-grid is not the best design choice. But just for clarification, this is a grid-tied system where there is already an Enphase M215 system and a whole house generator set up.
<div>Cheers, </div>
<div>Dave</div>
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<div style="display:inline-block;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;width:48%;text-align:right"><span style="color:rgb(144,154,164)"><span style="padding-left:6px">May 7, 2021 at 8:10 AM</span></span></div>
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<div dir="auto">I have to agree with Dave on this, complex and off grid generally are not good together, l sugest backing up and you might consider a redesign, dump enphase, go directly in to the inverter DC side, now a gen set back up will work. Your spending more time and effort going in a bad direction. AC coupling for resi is not a great solution to start with and Solark even say that. KISS is better
<div dir="auto">Jerry</div>
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<p>I would not do any of this for an offgrid client. It is against the rule of less is more. The whole design is flawed in my opinion.</p>
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<p>On Tue, 4 May 2021 19:24:13 -0400, Dave Tedeyan <a href="mailto:dave@sungineersolar.com" target="_blank"><dave@sungineersolar.com></a> wrote:</p>
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<div style="display:inline-block;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;width:48%;text-align:right"><span style="color:rgb(144,154,164)"><span style="padding-left:6px">May 4, 2021 at 4:24 PM</span></span></div>
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<div dir="auto">I suppose the question here is - which is the worse failure mode?
<div dir="auto">A. Solar turning off until an electrician can fix it.</div>
<div dir="auto">OR</div>
<div dir="auto">B. Not knowing the contactor failed until it does not open when the generator turns on and running the risk that the solar backfeeds the generator and breaks it.</div>
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<div dir="auto">For off-grid maybe A would be more of a concern. But for grid tied, I would think option B would be worse.</div>
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<div dir="auto">Does anyone have a fail safe method of doing this?</div>
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<div dir="auto">Cheers,</div>
<div dir="auto">Dave</div>
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<div dir="ltr">Jason,
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<div>A valid concern which is why I always wire them as powered open so if there is a failure it would transition closed or not open.</div>
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<div>Christopher</div>
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<div style="display:inline-block;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;width:49%"><a style="padding-right:6px;font-weight:500;color:rgb(72,86,100);text-decoration:none" href="mailto:jason@floridasolardesigngroup.com" target="_blank">Jason Szumlanski</a></div>
<div style="display:inline-block;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;width:48%;text-align:right"><span style="color:rgb(144,154,164)"><span style="padding-left:6px">May 4, 2021 at 1:03 PM</span></span></div>
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<div>What happens when the contactor fails? I don't trust a NC contactor that is supposed to open on 240Vac coil voltage from the generator. It's not a failsafe solution.
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<div dir="auto">Jason</div>
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<div style="display:inline-block;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;width:49%"><a style="padding-right:6px;font-weight:500;color:rgb(72,86,100);text-decoration:none" href="mailto:drake.chamberlin@redwoodalliance.org" target="_blank">Drake</a></div>
<div style="display:inline-block;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;width:48%;text-align:right"><span style="color:rgb(144,154,164)"><span style="padding-left:6px">May 4, 2021 at 12:08 PM</span></span></div>
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<div style="color:rgb(144,154,164);margin-left:24px;margin-right:24px"> P.S. The contactor method is even mentioned somewhere in the Outback literature. I've been using it for years. It is very simple and requires no complex equipment. It will not interfere with rapid shutdown. 40 A, 240 V contactors with 240 V coils are readily available and not terribly expensive. The 240 V output of the generator circuit provides the signal. <br><br> At 10:02 AM 5/4/2021, you wrote:<br> <br><fieldset></fieldset><br>
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<div style="display:inline-block;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;width:48%;text-align:right"><span style="color:rgb(144,154,164)"><span style="padding-left:6px">May 4, 2021 at 7:02 AM</span></span></div>
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<div id="gmail-m_5279032868916940221signature">Get a contactor with a 240 VAC coil. Connect the coil wire wires to the 240 V output circuit of the generator, so when the generator comes on, the contactor opens. Run the current from the AC coupled Enphase inverters through the contacts from common to N/C.</div>
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<p id="gmail-m_5279032868916940221reply-intro">On 2021-05-03 10:26, Dave Tedeyan wrote:</p>
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<div style="display:inline-block;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;width:48%;text-align:right"><span style="color:rgb(144,154,164)"><span style="padding-left:6px">May 3, 2021 at 7:26 AM</span></span></div>
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<div dir="ltr">Hi All,
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<div>I am planning on using a Sol-Ark for the first time for adding battery backup to an existing system. It is Enphase, so clearly it will be AC coupled, and there is a whole house generator. When I talked to Sol-Ark about it, they recommended putting the generator on a time of use schedule to not allow it to come on during the day so that we don't run into the issue of the solar backfeeding the generator.</div>
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<div>I was wondering though if anyone has just used a contactor to cut out the solar when the generator turns on? Something like Outback's GS-AC-Gen-Kit, although in this case I will need something rated for just over 30A. This seems like a better way to allow the generator to run at any time it is needed, especially if it is a gloomy, snowy, winter day.</div>
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<div>Cheers, </div>
<div>Dave<br>
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<div style="color:rgb(136,136,136)" dir="ltr"><strong>Dave Tedeyan, PE</strong></div>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr" style="color:rgb(136,136,136)"><b>Dave Tedeyan, PE</b></div><div dir="ltr" style="color:rgb(136,136,136)"><img src="http://sungineersolar.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/Sungineer-Logo-1.png" alt="Sungineer Solar" width="200" height="50"><b><br></b><div>1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850</div><div>Cell: 607-288-2898</div><div><a href="http://www.sungineersolar.com/" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">www.sungineersolar.com</a></div></div></div></div>