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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple style='word-wrap:break-word'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal>Good morning all. We have installed numerous Sol-Arks for this type of application over the last 2 years and they perform so very well. While they do a great job with FLA\u2019s they really shine with LI\u2019s or maybe it is my bias about only having to install 1 or 2 large batteries. Technology has blessed us with great changes in our industry and like some of you, I, at times, have been reluctant to change. Sol-Ark , while a truly terrific product, will be copied by competitors and upstarts, providing us with additional options in the future, good bad or indifferent. We and our customers will benefit, here\u2019s to change.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Peter Giroux<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>American Solar<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Roswell Ga <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b>From:</b> RE-wrenches <re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Dave Tedeyan<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 3, 2021 8:30 AM<br><b>To:</b> RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Small, non-Tesla GTBB system design<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>The Radian is also the system that I would typically use in this situation. Although I am interested what people think about using a Sol-Ark inverter here. I have not used one yet, but I am interested in the fact that everything is integrated into one box, the string voltages can be up to 500V, and also if there is a battery failure at some point they can still run as a grid tied system. <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Cheers, <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Dave<br clear=all><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>Dave Tedeyan, PE</span></b><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in'><img width=100 height=100 style='width:1.0416in;height:1.0416in' id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:~WRD0000.jpg" alt="Image removed by sender."></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>o. <u>607.277.1118 x121</u> f. 607.277.2119</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'><a href="http://www.taitem.com" target="_blank">www.taitem.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>Solar \u2022</span><span style='font-size:12.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>Sustainability \u2022 Energy \u2022 Design</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>Certified B-Corporation since 2013</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 7:10 AM John Blittersdorf <<a href="mailto:john.blittersdorf@gmail.com">john.blittersdorf@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><p class=MsoNormal>William,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> I agree with you with Radian, Fortress and just add a subpanel identical to the main grid panel as close possible. Put all critical loads on sub and larger loads on grid panel. Being side by side, swapping circuits is easy. I also install an iota charger for generator redundancy. OpticRE works great for monitoring. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>John Blittersdorf<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 1:19 AM William Miller <<a href="mailto:william@millersolar.com" target="_blank">william@millersolar.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>Friends:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>I am getting asked more often to provide design for grid-tied battery backup systems. I generally try to talk clients out of battery backup because I have always felt that the grid is the greenest battery and that the grid reliability is better than one might remember. However, with climate change and media attention, the need and market pressure is becoming stronger.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>I am really interested in what others have created in the way of solutions to this question. I have thought about it a lot. If its ok, I\u2019d like to free-associate about some of my concerns and conclusions then ask if any of you are willing to share your ideas on how best to fill this need. Here goes:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>I am a firm believer in segregate load delivery for these reasons:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>1.</span><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'> </span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>To back up an entire grid service you have to, in good conscience, perform a thorough load study and provide enough through-transfer to provide for maximum load conditions during grid up-time. The backup system cannot be a supply bottle-neck.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>2.</span><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'> </span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>I don\u2019t accept manual load-shedding for one moment. What if the AC and the dryer are running when the grid goes out? The system crashes.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>3.</span><span style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'> </span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>In a home with whole-house backup, it is difficult for the consumer to know there is an outage and to conserve. Cellphone notification features are now more common, but cell phone batteries die and phones get left in the other room with the ringer off, so it is possible for homeowners to leave consumptive loads on after the grid goes down.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>Conclusion: With segregated loads, the transfer, inverter and storage can be scaled down and the reliability increases. Less cost, better performance.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>So given that the system sizing will be modest, has anyone come up with a reasonable design using standard, grid-sell capable battery inverters?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>Here is how I am imagining such a system:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>I see a modest battery system with a 4 to 8 KW inverter, DC coupled PV and a matching no-maintenance battery system. It would have these components: </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>Inverter: Must have a dedicated generator and grid input and good remote monitoring, robust web interface and email notification. Outback Radian.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>Batteries: Gel or lithium. I have a client that has been grid-floating a set of MK Powered gel batteries since 1999. Or a Blue Planet or Fortress cabineted system.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>Generator: Small pad-mount natural gas or propane fueled generator or a portable gas powered unit with stabilized gas. If the generator is portable, provide an AC flanged inlet and sturdy cord long enough so generator can be 10 feet from any opening in the home. Provide durable signage on the generator indicating CO safety practices.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>PV: DC coupled for simplicity. Sized based on annual energy needs, not on critical loads. Grid power is likely to go down in the stormy winter months or smoky fire season, so PV is not a reliable energy source during grid outages.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>AC Distribution: Segregated loads with at least one commonly used lighting circuit not on the critical loads panel so the homeowner soon realizes the power is out.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>Unless you are a Tesla dealer, I am sure many of you have gone through the same mental acrobatics trying to figure out the best solution to this design request. I am very interested in what the rest of you may have come up with.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>Thanks in advance.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>William Miller</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Miller Solar</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><a href="https://www.google.com/maps/search/17395+Oak+Road,+Atascadero,+CA+93422?entry=gmail&source=g" target="_blank">17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422</a></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>805-438-5600</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><a href="http://www.millersolar.com/" target="_blank">www.millersolar.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>CA Lic. 773985</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>_______________________________________________<br>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance<br><br>List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>Change listserver email address & settings:<br><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>There are two list archives for searching. 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