<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">I don't see any indications that MLSD is making solar safer. It's increasing system cost and maintenance expense but the safety benefits haven't revealed themselves to me yet. Adding all the extra components increases the risk of failure in the system and increases the time our technicians have to spend on the roof. This extra time on the roof reduces overall safety for the installers. Also as per lussers' law, the system is only as reliable as the least reliable component times the reliability of all the other components in the system. By doubling the number of connections with MLSD we're increasing the likelyhood of system failure and exposing ourselves to a potential for increased downtime and lower productivity, this means a technician may have to spend more time on the roof dealing with maintenance issues and less time bringing more production online. Additionally, any potential safety benefit from MLSD hinges on the product performing properly, and if that product fails (which we see regularly) then it could create a false sense of safety for the people and firefighters that makes them less safe than they would be if the MLSD was not present at all. <br>With that said, I recently became aware of a product called PVSTOP that looks like it may be a real solution to the concerns for firefighter safety in the event of a fire, that actually guarantees the panels are de-energized. Apparently it's been used in australia for some time now. It's fairly inexpensive and the cost will likely come down further as they continue to achieve economies of scale. <a href="https://www.pv-stop.com/">https://www.pv-stop.com/</a></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div>Your thoughts are appreciated,</div><div dir="ltr">Sky Sims<div><a href="https://ecologicalsystems.org" target="_blank">https://EcologicalSystems.org</a></div><div>732-462-3858 f)732-462-3962</div>"Just an old wrench"</div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 11:55 AM jay <<a href="mailto:jay.peltz@gmail.com" target="_blank">jay.peltz@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>HI Andrew,<div><br></div><div>I\u2019ve been pondering your comments, and I hope you can elaborate on why you don\u2019t think MLPE has anything to do with firefighter safety? </div><div>And I guess I lump into the firefighter safety, homeowner safety as well. </div><div><br></div><div>As to the code meeting. I have it on pretty good info that a very senior member of the the NEC was pushing MLPE. It is true that the string inverter OEM\u2019s pushed back hard and that is why for the first time(?) a code rule had a 2 year delay in implantation of the NEC 2017.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks</div><div><br></div><div>jay</div><div><br></div><div>peltz power</div><div><br></div><div><br><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Feb 4, 2021, at 12:49 PM, Solar Energy Solutions <<a href="mailto:solarenergysolutions@yahoo.com" target="_blank">solarenergysolutions@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><div><div style="font-family:"times new roman","new york",times,serif;font-size:16px"><div id="gmail-m_-334582525338034235gmail-m_6368493953703199001ydp63de1cc5yiv6911388948"><div><div style="font-family:"times new roman","new york",times,serif;font-size:16px"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr">Dear All,</div><div dir="ltr"><br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr">I apologize for letting this conversation get a little stale before being able to comment further.</div><div dir="ltr"><br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr">Before
I reply, I would like to say I don't believe MLSD has anything to do
with firefighter safety. If being on dangerous roofs was really a
concern, steep roofs, slate roofs, metal roof, wet metal or shake roofs
and snow on roofs would get the same kind of scrutiny as solar on
roofs. I can only guess and think that some HUGE solar hating utility
company devised this whole firefighter safety thing. It is also my
understanding none of the string inverter folk turned up to the code
development meetings where MLSD was determined and you can guess who
was. But much of this is only rumor and the dark thoughts of a solar
bozo.<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"><br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr">I
HATE the hassle and maintenance issues of MLSD. I loved string
inverters and hated to see them go. So far as I can tell the US is the
only place on planet Earth to make String inverters all but illegal.
This said... a picture is worth a thousand words. All of the attached photos of systems
had the wire management done very well. If you look at the metal roof
photo you can see a small hole in it from the arc. I have many more
photos of different squirrel damaged systems. Ground Fault protection
has saved the inverters, but not the roofs.<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"><br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr">I
don't really like the idea of squirrel guards. It seems like I may be
creating another problem down the road that I can't really imagine.
Debris build up could be an issue. Rainwater could back up from a damn
and get under shingles and into the cavity of the house. For me the
easiest thing that could be done is for some kind of a bittering agent
to be part of the wires so that one little lick would send a critter
looking for a better food source.<div><br></div></div>Your Friendly Neighborhood Solar Man,</div><div><br clear="none"></div></div><div><div><a href="https://www.dropbox.com/s/3g5c57nqke9x7b2/Fire%201.JPG?dl=0" rel="noreferrer noopener" target="_blank">https://www.dropbox.com/s/3g5c57nqke9x7b2/Fire%201.JPG?dl=0</a></div><div><a href="https://www.dropbox.com/s/ksd5yhfsammybdz/Fire%202.JPG?dl=0" rel="noreferrer noopener" target="_blank">Fire 2.JPG</a></div><div><br></div><div id="gmail-m_-334582525338034235gmail-m_6368493953703199001ydp94636167enhancr_card_2888110498" style="max-width:400px;font-family:YahooSans,"Helvetica Neue","Segoe UI",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><a href="https://www.dropbox.com/s/ksd5yhfsammybdz/Fire%202.JPG?dl=0" style="text-decoration-line:none;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor" rel="noreferrer noopener" target="_blank"><table style="max-width:400px" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"><tbody><tr><td width="400"><table style="max-width:400px;border-width:1px;border-style:solid;border-color:rgb(224,228,233);border-radius:2px" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"><tbody><tr><td style="background-color:rgb(0,0,0);background-repeat:no-repeat;background-size:cover;border-radius:2px 2px 0px 0px;min-height:175px" valign="top" height="175" bgcolor="#000000"><table style="width:100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"><tbody><tr><td style="background-color:transparent;border-radius:2px 2px 0px 0px;min-height:175px" valign="top" bgcolor="transparent"><table style="width:100%;min-height:175px" height="175" border="0"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align:left;padding:15px 0px 0px 15px;vertical-align:top"></td><td style="text-align:right;padding:15px 15px 0px 0px;vertical-align:top"><div></div></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr><tr><td><table style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);background-repeat:repeat;background-image:none;background-size:auto;width:100%;max-width:400px;border-radius:0px 0px 2px 2px;border-top:1px solid rgb(224,228,233)" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" align="center"><tbody><tr><td style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);padding:16px 0px 16px 12px;vertical-align:top;border-radius:0px 0px 0px 2px"><img style="min-width: 36px; margin-top: 3px;" height="36"></td><td style="vertical-align:middle;padding:12px 24px 16px 12px;width:99%;font-family:YahooSans,"Helvetica Neue","Segoe UI",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;border-radius:0px 0px 2px"><h2 style="font-size:14px;line-height:19px;margin:0px 0px 6px;font-family:YahooSans,"Helvetica Neue","Segoe UI",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(38,40,42);max-width:314px">Fire 2.JPG</h2><div style="font-size:12px;line-height:16px;margin:0px;color:rgb(151,155,167)">Shared with 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noopener" target="_blank"><table style="max-width:400px" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"><tbody><tr><td width="400"><table style="max-width:400px;border-width:1px;border-style:solid;border-color:rgb(224,228,233);border-radius:2px" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"><tbody><tr><td style="background-color:rgb(0,0,0);background-repeat:no-repeat;background-size:cover;border-radius:2px 2px 0px 0px;min-height:175px" valign="top" height="175" bgcolor="#000000"><table style="width:100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"><tbody><tr><td style="background-color:transparent;border-radius:2px 2px 0px 0px;min-height:175px" valign="top" bgcolor="transparent"><table style="width:100%;min-height:175px" height="175" border="0"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align:left;padding:15px 0px 0px 15px;vertical-align:top"></td><td style="text-align:right;padding:15px 15px 0px 0px;vertical-align:top"><div></div></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr><tr><td><table style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);background-repeat:repeat;background-image:none;background-size:auto;width:100%;max-width:400px;border-radius:0px 0px 2px 2px;border-top:1px solid rgb(224,228,233)" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" align="center"><tbody><tr><td style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);padding:16px 0px 16px 12px;vertical-align:top;border-radius:0px 0px 0px 2px"><img style="min-width: 36px; margin-top: 3px;" height="36"></td><td style="vertical-align:middle;padding:12px 24px 16px 12px;width:99%;font-family:YahooSans,"Helvetica Neue","Segoe UI",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;border-radius:0px 0px 2px"><h2 style="font-size:14px;line-height:19px;margin:0px 0px 6px;font-family:YahooSans,"Helvetica Neue","Segoe UI",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(38,40,42);max-width:314px">Fire 3.JPG</h2><div style="font-size:12px;line-height:16px;margin:0px;color:rgb(151,155,167)">Shared with Dropbox</div></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></a><div style="width:100%;height:100%;display:flex;background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0.3)"><div><div><u></u><u></u><u></u><u></u><u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div><div><a href="https://www.dropbox.com/s/bjm01bkquds1b31/Fire%204.JPG?dl=0" rel="noreferrer noopener" target="_blank">Fire 4.JPG</a></div><div><br></div><div id="gmail-m_-334582525338034235gmail-m_6368493953703199001ydpb6fc819aenhancr_card_2601647250" style="max-width:400px;font-family:YahooSans,"Helvetica Neue","Segoe UI",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><a href="https://www.dropbox.com/s/bjm01bkquds1b31/Fire%204.JPG?dl=0" style="text-decoration-line:none;text-decoration-style:solid;text-decoration-color:currentcolor" rel="noreferrer noopener" target="_blank"><table style="max-width:400px" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"><tbody><tr><td 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style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);background-repeat:repeat;background-image:none;background-size:auto;width:100%;max-width:400px;border-radius:0px 0px 2px 2px;border-top:1px solid rgb(224,228,233)" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" align="center"><tbody><tr><td style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);padding:16px 0px 16px 12px;vertical-align:top;border-radius:0px 0px 0px 2px"><img style="min-width: 36px; margin-top: 3px;" height="36"></td><td style="vertical-align:middle;padding:12px 24px 16px 12px;width:99%;font-family:YahooSans,"Helvetica Neue","Segoe UI",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;border-radius:0px 0px 2px"><h2 style="font-size:14px;line-height:19px;margin:0px 0px 6px;font-family:YahooSans,"Helvetica Neue","Segoe UI",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(38,40,42);max-width:314px">Fire 4.JPG</h2><div style="font-size:12px;line-height:16px;margin:0px;color:rgb(151,155,167)">Shared with 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style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);background-repeat:repeat;background-image:none;background-size:auto;width:100%;max-width:400px;border-radius:0px 0px 2px 2px;border-top:1px solid rgb(224,228,233)" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" align="center"><tbody><tr><td style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);padding:16px 0px 16px 12px;vertical-align:top;border-radius:0px 0px 0px 2px"><img style="min-width: 36px; margin-top: 3px;" height="36"></td><td style="vertical-align:middle;padding:12px 24px 16px 12px;width:99%;font-family:YahooSans,"Helvetica Neue","Segoe UI",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;border-radius:0px 0px 2px"><h2 style="font-size:14px;line-height:19px;margin:0px 0px 6px;font-family:YahooSans,"Helvetica Neue","Segoe UI",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(38,40,42);max-width:314px">Fire 5 Voltair the culprit.jpg</h2><div style="font-size:12px;line-height:16px;margin:0px;color:rgb(151,155,167)">Shared with 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On Friday, January 29, 2021, 8:15:28 PM PST, Ray <<a href="mailto:ray@solarray.com" target="_blank">ray@solarray.com</a>> wrote:
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<div><div id="gmail-m_-334582525338034235gmail-m_6368493953703199001yiv6911388948"><div><p>I totally agree; where else does the NEC allow loose single
conductor cables to run unprotected? outdoors? All because the
module manus and industry in general has made no effort, zero, to
accommodate any type of electrical industry standard K/Os for
conduit, or TEK 90 (great stuff BTW). If we hadn't gone this
wacky direction, starting about 15 years ago, we probably wouldn't
be having this conversation, because there would be much less
reason for MLSD. <br clear="none">
</p><p>I could see whips of TEK 90 that plugged into polarized 2 pole
quick connects mounted integrally to a J box on the back of each
module. <br clear="none">
</p><p><img alt="Teck 90 Armoured Power & Control Cable 600V CSA FT4 HL ..."><img alt="Llt M10 Bayonet Lock Molding Waterproof Cable 2 Pole ..." width="206" height="166"></p>
<pre>Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760</pre>
<div id="gmail-m_-334582525338034235gmail-m_6368493953703199001yiv6911388948yqtfd93628"><div>On 1/29/21 8:10 PM, Hilton Dier wrote:<br clear="none">
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<pre>There\u2019s a buried-in-plain-sight issue here that has bugged me for years.
In the bad old days we had to hard wire into J-boxes on the backs of modules. A pain, but it meant that, if necessary, we could install conduit from the module to the combiner box. Now we have convenient pigtails.
However, we are stuck with #10 PV wire hanging under the module from the box to the nearest attachment point. There are all sorts of trays and wire management systems, but there\u2019s always that one loop of wire hanging in the open.
I know that the module industry has near zero margins as a commodity market. Perhaps one manufacturer could differentiate themselves by making a module with either 1) armored pigtails, or 2) provision for some kind of conduit starting at the J box.
I\u2019m thinking of all the various back covers installers have to improvise on ground mounts. I\u2019m thinking of squirrels and ice dams.
Why can\u2019t there be a module with the equivalent of Teck 90 cable on it?
Maybe I\u2019m just being naive.
Hilton
Hilton Dier III
Renewable Energy Design
Missisquoi River Hydro LLC
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