<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
<p>I agree with William, SOC is just a calculation, that can change
with temperature, age of batteries, and even when the last full
charge occurred. We just had trouble with an inherited Sunny
Island system that only allows gen start settings based on SOC.
The actual battery SOC didn't correspond to the programming after
a while, and the dumb thing would shut off due to low voltage,
BEFORE starting the generator. Then being AC coupled, you also
have disabled the PV charging source. Triggering gen start off
SOC and having your array AC coupled is a RECIPE for disaster,
speaking of Cooks in the Kitchen, William.<br>
</p>
<p> Ray Walters
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Remote Solar
303 505-8760</pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/8/21 4:24 PM, William Miller
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:8bd8bf08bd3c7521780c0448f69062b7@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 14 (filtered
medium)">
<style>@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}@font-face
{font-family:Gadugi;
panose-1:2 11 5 2 4 2 4 2 2 3;}@font-face
{font-family:Verdana;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}span.EmailStyle17
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";}div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}</style>
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Mick:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Here\u2019s
a thought: If the system has an FNDC, the charging may be
programmed to terminate at a specific SOC. I have been told
by OB tech support, and I believe this, that using SOC and
battery voltage over time and/or charge taper to control
charging is like the old adage, \u201ctoo many cooks.\u201d</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">My
understanding is the best parameter for terminating an
absorption charge is charge taper, if your system has this
option. Taper is the best indication of complete charging.
This is typically set at 3% of the 20 hour AH rating. All
other charge termination options should be disabled. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Too
many charge termination \u201ccooks\u201d may be the cause of your
problem, Mick and the problem Drake posted I believe just
today.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I
have been meaning to write some thoughts on the very concept
of SOC. As I understand it, SOC is a calculated value,
using AH in versus AH out and adjusted for charging
efficiency. I believe this process has a high probability
for inaccuracy because the actual efficiency value is a
moving target. It changes with temperature, battery charge
state, battery age and probably other factors. This belief
is reinforced by the fact all of these SOC measuring systems
must have a built in recalibration that typically occurs
when some voltage over time condition is met. The default
values for this reset to 100% SOC are deliberately too low
to ensure calibration actually occurs, but it gives clients
an inaccurate impression of when battery charging is fully
accomplished.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Way
too often I have seen clients manually terminate generator
charging of a battery bank prematurely because they see the
SOC is 100% and yet their generator is still consuming fuel
and making noise, something they do not want to occur unless
they know it is required. This means batteries do not get
the absorption time they need for a long life span.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I
have contemplated discontinuing installation of FNDC units
for this reason. In fact, the only benefit I see to an FNDC
unit is to allow battery parameter logging. I tell my
client to ignore any number followed by a % sign. I am
BCC-ing several clients on this post because I want them to
have more background on why I say this.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I
am interested in what others think about the benefit, or
lack thereof, of using derived SOC values.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">William</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">PS:
I would not assume a recently purchased system has the
latest firmware.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Wm</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Miller
Solar</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">17395
Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">805-438-5600</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><a
href="http://www.millersolar.com/" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:blue">www.millersolar.com</span></a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">CA
Lic. 773985</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
RE-wrenches [mailto:<a
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Mick Abraham<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, January 8, 2021 12:46 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [RE-wrenches] Radian Charges 1 hour per
calendar day</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Happy Friday, Mechanix~</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Drake Chamberlin wrote about the Radian
inverter that began running a "too short" absorption
interval after several years of normal operations. Drake
said the possible culprit is inverter firmware per
Outback; I wish to add a data point & follow up
questions:</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I sold an Outback SE-830BLU-300AFCI
Systemedge Package--which includes Outback batteries &
all for quick deployment--to a longtime retail client in
the Autumn of 2020. Firmware seems likely to be the latest
version on all components since it shipped from OB so
recently. The client's internet service to the site was
lost along with everything else in a CA wildfire--so I
can't look in remotely & I can't physically travel to
the site. He has much prior experience with
inverter/chargers, off grid living etc. but he's new to
the Radian, Mate3s, etc. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">My off grid client reports his new
Radian is shifting to float before the Absorption target
voltage is even reached & the shift occurs around 56.1
volts battery voltage on the way up. The battery is cool,
not warm. He's been through the menus & couldn't find
a likely suspect for this behavior. The FM100 PV
controller on the same system is able to push the battery
to the absorption target then hang there as would be
expected before it shifts to float. That's if the daylight
lasts long enough, of course. As with Drake's client, my
friend needs to be able to pump the battery to a higher
state of charge with his generator than what he's getting.
His upscale (but lead acid) Outback BLU batteries we
bought in the package seem at risk of harm due to this
problem--& I'm sure Drake has similar concerns. I
asked the client to reboot the generator AC (breaker off,
then back on) to see if he could push the battery closer
to the absorb voltage that way but I am still waiting for
that answer. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks to the clues & cues from
Drake, I'll cut & paste this into a trouble ticket
with OB. While waiting for that to percolate through the
system, here's one more question for the hive mind:</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">* When a Systemedge Package is
purchased complete with batteries & all, are the
chargers & the FNDC battery monitor already
pre-programmed for the battery type & size? Here's
hoping, and as always, the Wrench List is the Bomb!</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Mick Abraham, Proprietor</p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="http://www.abrahamsolar.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">www.abrahamsolar.com</a><br>
<br>
Landline: 970-731-4675</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Cell phone or for text
messaging: 970-946-6584</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><img id="_x0000_i1025"
src="https://mailfoogae.appspot.com/t?sender=abWlja0BhYnJhaGFtc29sYXIuY29t&type=zerocontent&guid=d7240791-4493-4c40-b4b9-089de96b16d9"
moz-do-not-send="true" border="0"><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Gadugi","sans-serif";color:white">\u1427</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
List Address: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
Change listserver email address & settings:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a>
There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/">https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a>
List rules & etiquette:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm">http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a>
Check out or update participant bios:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org">http://www.members.re-wrenches.org</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>