<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
I agree, Ray. Shutting down the inverter's ac output and the PV
array is sufficient to make a battery based system about as safe as
possible for firefighters. That is probably what was wanted when the
code was revised to require an outside battery disconnect.
Unfortunately, the local AHJ may not see it that way. But if the AHJ
will agree to it the remote inverter shutdown is an easy way to go.
I like the way Schneider has implemented remote power off in the XW
series, once the remote shut off is tripped the inverter must be
manually reset. I don't believe it is done that way in the Outback
inverters which leaves open the question: can the power come back on
if the remote off circuit is compromised. Well, it can't if there is
a remotely tripped breaker used as a disconnect.<br>
<br>
The issue of security for outside disconnects will be a major
problem that the 2020 code has created. Its not just renewable
energy systems in that situation. All new utility services have the
same requirement. Anyone having a beef with their neighbor can shut
off their power. Best if you wait until they are on vacation...<br>
<br>
Kent Osterberg<br>
Blue Mountain Solar<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/20/2020 11:24 AM, Ray wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:b747c60d-4242-9a5b-2806-25dac5f4058b@solarray.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<p>Interesting idea: shutting down the inverter should actually be
preferable to a battery disco, since its possible to disconnect
the battery and still have an inverter operate array direct if
the loads are close to the array output. I've seen it take
several minutes for the inverter to shut off sometimes.</p>
<p>This whole concept needs to be left in the oven longer to get
the verbage right. I believe the idea is to have power off to
the distribution circuits in the house, but NEC is having a
really hard time just saying that. Who cares if the battery is
still connected to the inverter; there will always be a few feet
of battery cable energized, regardless of the remote disconnect
scheme. Seems much easier to shut down the inverter, and then
have a clause covering DC distribution for those Luddites still
doing that.</p>
<p>Overall, I have severe misgivings about this whole idea. While
it sounds good at first, you must consider that a failure of the
remote system, or a wacky neighbor can shut off the entire house
including refrigeration and heat. The customer could come back
to rotten food and frozen pipes. We need to have a more
holistic approach that balances fire fighter safety with home
owner safety. Article 445 Generators, exempts generators under
15 kW. It seems something similar for off grid would be
appropriate. <br>
</p>
<p>How many times has this actually been a problem? or is this
possibly just a high tech solution in search of an imagined
problem?<br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760</pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/20/20 9:50 AM, Dave Angelini
Offgrid Solar wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:5daa715ad07949ac8f05a48c17ca4624@127.0.0.1">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8">
<p>Thanks Kent,</p>
<p>A question, most of the Sierra AHJ's only care, and that is
rare, that there is a remote power off like Outback and
Schneider have already. I understand it is not a battery
disco, and even though there is one in these systems, what is
your response please? </p>
<p>I mostly dislike power sheds as people need an excuse to go
there and observe. I mostly use a garage or outside house wall
to build a bat room. Appreciate your thoughts. Insurance
issues are not as important these days as many of us no longer
can get it<img title="Cry"
src="cid:part1.0798ACD5.1740F575@coveoregon.com" alt="Cry"
class="" border="0"></p>
<div>
<pre> </pre>
<pre><strong><span style="font-size: small;">Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
<a href="http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/</a>
e-mail <a href="mailto:offgridsolar@sti.net" moz-do-not-send="true">offgridsolar@sti.net</a>
text 209 813 0060</span></strong></pre>
</div>
<p>On Mon, 19 Oct 2020 22:33:03 -0700, Kent Osterberg <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:kent@coveoregon.com" moz-do-not-send="true"><kent@coveoregon.com></a>
wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding-left:5px;
border-left:#1010ff 2px solid; margin-left:5px; width:100%"><!-- html ignored -->
<!-- head ignored -->
<!-- meta ignored -->Ray,<br>
<br>
Per NEC 480 batteries below 48 volts didn't need a readily
accessible disconnect within site of the batteries. That's
unchanged in the 2020 Code, you don't have to have a readily
accessible disconnect within site of the batteries. That's a
good thing considering the environment near lead acid
batteries. A disconnect switch still isn't required in the
48-volt battery room.<br>
<br>
Yes, if you put a 48-volt battery in a one or two-family
dwelling, an outside (remote) emergency disconnect is
required. That is going to be a pain that may add hundreds of
dollars to the cost of small off-grid systems. You might get
away with a mushroom switch and a 24-volt tap on the batteries
to activate a remote trip breaker. But considering that it is
a fire-safety related circuit it is probably best to spend the
money for the bird box.<br>
<br>
At the very least 480.7(B) should make off-grid folks think
about using a power shed. The power shed is not a dwelling so
2020 NEC 480.7(B) doesn't apply. <br>
<br>
Kent Osterberg<br>
Blue Mountain Solar<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/19/2020 8:34 PM, Ray wrote:</div>
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding-left:5px;
border-left:#1010ff 2px solid; margin-left:5px; width:100%"><!-- meta ignored -->
<p>I've used Blue Planet, so I guess I have used an actual
UL listed ESS, even though they don't include the charge
controller or inverter. I knew they were UL, but I double
checked and it is the UL 9540 standard mentioned in 706.
So in this case, we could ignore 480, but are held to
706. Regardless of 480 or 706, both are possibly
requiring the outside remote disconnect. Besides
Midnite's remote trip breakers, and the dreaded Bird
House, what other options are there to meet this new
requirement? Can the Blue Planet be tripped remotely?</p>
<p>and still my initial question: </p>
<p>Under 480.7, are batteries below 60v still required to
have the remote disconnect? They are exempted from having
a disconnect at all in 480.7(A)......quite confusing. </p>
<pre class="moz-signature">Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760</pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/19/20 7:06 PM, Jerry
Shafer wrote:</div>
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding-left:5px;
border-left:#1010ff 2px solid; margin-left:5px;
width:100%"><!-- meta ignored -->
<div dir="auto">Wrenches
<div dir="auto">Blue planet are fire and UL listed
systems both on there 48 Volt and the LX flavors</div>
<div dir="auto">Jerry</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Mon, Oct 19, 2020,
5:51 PM Ray <<a href="mailto:ray@solarray.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">ray@solarray.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0 0 0
.8ex; border-left: 1px #ccc solid; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>
<p>The notes in the NEC 2020 Handbook for article
706 clearly state that 706 only covers ESS which
is an assembly of components, and that the total
assembly must be listed under UL 9540. </p>
<p>Further it states: "<em> A group of separate
components that includes storage batteries, that
is provided with support systems (racks), charge
controllers, and inverters, and that does NOT
have an overall listing as an ESS is a storage
battery system and as such is subject to the
requirements of article 480"</em></p>
<p>and just in case someone says the notes don't
matter, 706.5 says: "<em>Energy Storage systems
shall be listed"</em>.</p>
<p>So, since I have never used an actual listed ESS,
I'm back to 480. Specifically, 480.7 (A) says we
need a disconnect for batteries over 60 vdc (48v
should be exempt) and then 480.7(B) says houses
need to have an outside disconnect for the
batteries labeled "Emergency Disconnect". </p>
<p>So here's the real question: Does 480.7(A)
exempt us from 480.7(B)? </p>
<pre>Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760</pre>
<div>On 3/9/19 8:08 PM, Brian Mehalic wrote:</div>
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding-left:5px;
border-left:#1010ff 2px solid; margin-left:5px;
width:100%">
<div dir="ltr">Hi Glenn, I don't completely agree
with your interpretation of ESS systems and the
application of Article 706. Yes, an ESS <em>could</em>
provide 120/240 VAC (e.g. the Powerwall), but
the figures in Article 690 show three different
configurations where the output of the ESS is
not AC, and where the ESS disconnect comes
before any power electronics (like a multimode
inverter, as shown in the AC and DC coupled
systems) or loads (as shown in the stand-alone
system). Are those ESS connected to other
systems which utilize stored energy to provide
AC power? Yes, but the key is "connected to
other systems" - in many cases the ESS only
provides DC. In fact the definition of ESS
clearly states this - it <em>can</em> have AC
or DC output, and it <em>may</em> include power
electronics (but may not).
<div> </div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>My understanding
is that the 60 volt
limit (which is
obviously
problematic in a
world where 48 VDC
batteries and ESS
are very common) was
inserted in order to
exempt other devices
that store energy
(such as UPS, or
battery backup in
fire alarms/exit
signage/etc.) from
the 706
requirements.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Cheers,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Brian Mehalic <br>
NABCEP Certified
Solar PV
Installation
Professional\u2122 R031508-59</div>
<div>National
Electrical CodeŽ
CMP-4 Member</div>
<div>(520) 204-6639<br>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div>
<div>Solar
Energy
International<br>
<a
href="http://www.solarenergy.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.solarenergy.org</a></div>
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Services</div>
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<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Sat, Mar 9,
2019 at 4:07 PM Glenn Burt <<a
href="mailto:glenn.burt@glbcc.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">glenn.burt@glbcc.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:
0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid
#cccccc; padding-left: 1ex;">Hi Ray,<br>
<br>
This is a conversation I have had some time
ago with a number of my fellow inspectors and
code experts. When the 2017 NEC came out, I
agreed with Mike Holt and Bill Brooks'
assessment that the new article was poorly
written and did not apply to most systems
being installed today. After much discussion
through my Cadmus network of authorities, it
emerged that indeed 706 apples to the typical
residential systems.<br>
So Energy Storage Systems (ESS) are the point
of article 706, and I believe that the key
point is that the SYSTEM is generating AC
voltage of 120VAC or 240VAC, making the system
fall under article 706.<br>
<br>
Batteries themselves are minimally covered by
NEC 480, NFPA 1, and the IFC as applicable
locally.<br>
So, the bottom line is that the new article
does cover the work we do when systems provide
or interface with 120VAC or above (making the
system operation exceeding the 60V AC
trigger).<br>
<br>
My initial problem was believing that the
article applied to a component (the battery
bank), and not the system (all components
taken together as a generator/storage system).
It is an easy misunderstanding to make.<br>
<br>
Hope this helps!<br>
<br>
-Glenn Burt<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: RE-wrenches <<a
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
On Behalf Of Ray<br>
Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2019 12:41 PM<br>
To: RE-wrenches <<a
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>><br>
Cc: Bill Brooks <<a
href="mailto:billb@energy808.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">billb@energy808.com</a>>;
Bill Brooks <<a
href="mailto:billbrooks7@yahoo.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">billbrooks7@yahoo.com</a>><br>
Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries <
60v ??<br>
<br>
Hi Everyone;<br>
<br>
I'm updating all my verbage on plansets, and I
just realized that the newly created article
706 covering Energy Storage Systems is only
for Over 60 VDC (706.1) Also article 480 for
batteries only requires disconnecting means
over 60 VDC ?! (480.7). I'm not about to not
have a disconnect, so now that NEC pulled
battery systems out of 690, where do we go
for guidance on normal battery systems: 12,
24, 48 VDC?<br>
<br>
Overall, I welcome most of the changes in NEC
2017, like separating off grid systems into
articles 706, and 710, but it seems us off
grid installers need some more clarification.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
--<br>
Ray Walters<br>
Remote Solar<br>
303 505-8760<br>
<br>
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