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Dave,<br>
<br>
If the AHJ is happy with the remote power down of the inverter (and
now the PV array if on the roof or if it enters a building other
than a power shed) I'd say that's great. You can't make the inverter
much safer than shutting it down. A remote battery disconnect may
only de-energize another few feet of battery cable anyway. But I
know in California it will be a while until the 2020 NEC is adopted,
when it is adopted, you might find the AHJ just saying it has to be
done with a battery disconnect.<br>
<br>
If you are putting in a remote power off circuit or remote
disconnect: does it get treated as fire safety equipment? Special MC
cable? Metal conduit? Remote shut switch off grouped with the
service disconnect? Is all of the equipment listed for emergency
shut use? Is it good enough for a nuclear power plant safety system
too? Where do we stop?<br>
<br>
Does anyone wonder why the cabin in the woods flies under the radar
rather than attempting to comply with the excess of regulations that
get heaped on a small power system?<br>
<br>
Kent Osterberg<br>
Blue Mountain Solar<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/20/2020 8:50 AM, Dave Angelini
Offgrid Solar wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:5daa715ad07949ac8f05a48c17ca4624@127.0.0.1">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<p>Thanks Kent,</p>
<p>A question, most of the Sierra AHJ's only care, and that is
rare, that there is a remote power off like Outback and
Schneider have already. I understand it is not a battery disco,
and even though there is one in these systems, what is your
response please? </p>
<p>I mostly dislike power sheds as people need an excuse to go
there and observe. I mostly use a garage or outside house wall
to build a bat room. Appreciate your thoughts. Insurance issues
are not as important these days as many of us no longer can get
it<img title="Cry"
src="cid:part1.317BB829.8F17CCB4@coveoregon.com" alt="Cry"
class="" border="0"></p>
<div>
<pre> </pre>
<pre><strong><span style="font-size: small;">Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
<a href="http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/</a>
e-mail <a href="mailto:offgridsolar@sti.net" moz-do-not-send="true">offgridsolar@sti.net</a>
text 209 813 0060</span></strong></pre>
</div>
<p>On Mon, 19 Oct 2020 22:33:03 -0700, Kent Osterberg <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:kent@coveoregon.com" moz-do-not-send="true"><kent@coveoregon.com></a>
wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding-left:5px;
border-left:#1010ff 2px solid; margin-left:5px; width:100%"><!-- html ignored -->
<!-- head ignored -->
<!-- meta ignored -->Ray,<br>
<br>
Per NEC 480 batteries below 48 volts didn't need a readily
accessible disconnect within site of the batteries. That's
unchanged in the 2020 Code, you don't have to have a readily
accessible disconnect within site of the batteries. That's a
good thing considering the environment near lead acid batteries.
A disconnect switch still isn't required in the 48-volt battery
room.<br>
<br>
Yes, if you put a 48-volt battery in a one or two-family
dwelling, an outside (remote) emergency disconnect is required.
That is going to be a pain that may add hundreds of dollars to
the cost of small off-grid systems. You might get away with a
mushroom switch and a 24-volt tap on the batteries to activate a
remote trip breaker. But considering that it is a fire-safety
related circuit it is probably best to spend the money for the
bird box.<br>
<br>
At the very least 480.7(B) should make off-grid folks think
about using a power shed. The power shed is not a dwelling so
2020 NEC 480.7(B) doesn't apply. <br>
<br>
Kent Osterberg<br>
Blue Mountain Solar<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/19/2020 8:34 PM, Ray wrote:</div>
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding-left:5px;
border-left:#1010ff 2px solid; margin-left:5px; width:100%"><!-- meta ignored -->
<p>I've used Blue Planet, so I guess I have used an actual UL
listed ESS, even though they don't include the charge
controller or inverter. I knew they were UL, but I double
checked and it is the UL 9540 standard mentioned in 706. So
in this case, we could ignore 480, but are held to 706.
Regardless of 480 or 706, both are possibly requiring the
outside remote disconnect. Besides Midnite's remote trip
breakers, and the dreaded Bird House, what other options are
there to meet this new requirement? Can the Blue Planet be
tripped remotely?</p>
<p>and still my initial question: </p>
<p>Under 480.7, are batteries below 60v still required to have
the remote disconnect? They are exempted from having a
disconnect at all in 480.7(A)......quite confusing. </p>
<pre class="moz-signature">Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760</pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/19/20 7:06 PM, Jerry Shafer
wrote:</div>
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding-left:5px;
border-left:#1010ff 2px solid; margin-left:5px; width:100%"><!-- meta ignored -->
<div dir="auto">Wrenches
<div dir="auto">Blue planet are fire and UL listed systems
both on there 48 Volt and the LX flavors</div>
<div dir="auto">Jerry</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Mon, Oct 19, 2020,
5:51 PM Ray <<a href="mailto:ray@solarray.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">ray@solarray.com</a>> wrote:</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0 0 0 .8ex;
border-left: 1px #ccc solid; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>
<p>The notes in the NEC 2020 Handbook for article 706
clearly state that 706 only covers ESS which is an
assembly of components, and that the total assembly
must be listed under UL 9540. </p>
<p>Further it states: "<em> A group of separate
components that includes storage batteries, that
is provided with support systems (racks), charge
controllers, and inverters, and that does NOT have
an overall listing as an ESS is a storage battery
system and as such is subject to the requirements
of article 480"</em></p>
<p>and just in case someone says the notes don't
matter, 706.5 says: "<em>Energy Storage systems
shall be listed"</em>.</p>
<p>So, since I have never used an actual listed ESS,
I'm back to 480. Specifically, 480.7 (A) says we
need a disconnect for batteries over 60 vdc (48v
should be exempt) and then 480.7(B) says houses need
to have an outside disconnect for the batteries
labeled "Emergency Disconnect". </p>
<p>So here's the real question: Does 480.7(A) exempt
us from 480.7(B)? </p>
<pre>Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760</pre>
<div>On 3/9/19 8:08 PM, Brian Mehalic wrote:</div>
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding-left:5px;
border-left:#1010ff 2px solid; margin-left:5px;
width:100%">
<div dir="ltr">Hi Glenn, I don't completely agree
with your interpretation of ESS systems and the
application of Article 706. Yes, an ESS <em>could</em>
provide 120/240 VAC (e.g. the Powerwall), but the
figures in Article 690 show three different
configurations where the output of the ESS is not
AC, and where the ESS disconnect comes before any
power electronics (like a multimode inverter, as
shown in the AC and DC coupled systems) or loads
(as shown in the stand-alone system). Are those
ESS connected to other systems which utilize
stored energy to provide AC power? Yes, but the
key is "connected to other systems" - in many
cases the ESS only provides DC. In fact the
definition of ESS clearly states this - it <em>can</em> have
AC or DC output, and it <em>may</em> include
power electronics (but may not).
<div> </div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>My understanding is
that the 60 volt limit
(which is obviously
problematic in a world
where 48 VDC batteries
and ESS are very
common) was inserted
in order to exempt
other devices that
store energy (such as
UPS, or battery backup
in fire alarms/exit
signage/etc.) from the
706 requirements.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Cheers,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Brian Mehalic <br>
NABCEP Certified Solar
PV Installation
Professional\u2122 R031508-59</div>
<div>National Electrical
CodeŽ CMP-4 Member</div>
<div>(520) 204-6639<br>
<div> </div>
<div>
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International<br>
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href="http://www.solarenergy.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.solarenergy.org</a></div>
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Services</div>
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<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Sat, Mar 9,
2019 at 4:07 PM Glenn Burt <<a
href="mailto:glenn.burt@glbcc.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">glenn.burt@glbcc.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px
0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #cccccc;
padding-left: 1ex;">Hi Ray,<br>
<br>
This is a conversation I have had some time ago
with a number of my fellow inspectors and code
experts. When the 2017 NEC came out, I agreed
with Mike Holt and Bill Brooks' assessment that
the new article was poorly written and did not
apply to most systems being installed today.
After much discussion through my Cadmus network
of authorities, it emerged that indeed 706
apples to the typical residential systems.<br>
So Energy Storage Systems (ESS) are the point of
article 706, and I believe that the key point is
that the SYSTEM is generating AC voltage of
120VAC or 240VAC, making the system fall under
article 706.<br>
<br>
Batteries themselves are minimally covered by
NEC 480, NFPA 1, and the IFC as applicable
locally.<br>
So, the bottom line is that the new article does
cover the work we do when systems provide or
interface with 120VAC or above (making the
system operation exceeding the 60V AC trigger).<br>
<br>
My initial problem was believing that the
article applied to a component (the battery
bank), and not the system (all components taken
together as a generator/storage system). It is
an easy misunderstanding to make.<br>
<br>
Hope this helps!<br>
<br>
-Glenn Burt<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: RE-wrenches <<a
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
On Behalf Of Ray<br>
Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2019 12:41 PM<br>
To: RE-wrenches <<a
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>><br>
Cc: Bill Brooks <<a
href="mailto:billb@energy808.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">billb@energy808.com</a>>;
Bill Brooks <<a
href="mailto:billbrooks7@yahoo.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">billbrooks7@yahoo.com</a>><br>
Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries <
60v ??<br>
<br>
Hi Everyone;<br>
<br>
I'm updating all my verbage on plansets, and I
just realized that the newly created article 706
covering Energy Storage Systems is only for Over
60 VDC (706.1) Also article 480 for batteries
only requires disconnecting means over 60 VDC ?!
(480.7). I'm not about to not have a
disconnect, so now that NEC pulled battery
systems out of 690, where do we go for guidance
on normal battery systems: 12, 24, 48 VDC?<br>
<br>
Overall, I welcome most of the changes in NEC
2017, like separating off grid systems into
articles 706, and 710, but it seems us off grid
installers need some more clarification.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
--<br>
Ray Walters<br>
Remote Solar<br>
303 505-8760<br>
<br>
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