<html><head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
</head><body style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255,
255);" text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">Yes Richard is right.
When doing these one cycle or lifetime comparisons we should derate the
rated or useful KWH figures by the round trip efficiency:<br>
<br>
Round Trip Efficiencies:<br>
<br>
FLA - 82-85%<br>
AGM - 88-92%<br>
AGM-Carbon - 90-94%<br>
LFP - 94%-98%<br>
<br>
:)<br>
<br>
jc<br>
<br>
<span>Richard Scott wrote on 8/11/20 10:35 AM:</span><br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CANMh_0TMh1_H+iT8a2zbenO64h1bzC6EbUf6hK254QV0T463DA@mail.gmail.com"><meta
http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<div dir="ltr">Also keep in mind that the battery charge/discharge
efficiency is much higher for lithium batteries compared to lead acid.<div><br></div><div>Richard</div><div><br></div></div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Aug
11, 2020 at 8:17 AM Jay <<a href="mailto:jay.peltz@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">jay.peltz@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote
class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div dir="ltr">Hi
William,</div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">I dont do the
math based on up front kwh cost, but on lifetime kWh based on the number
of cycles per average DOD that are going to be used. I use this same
formula to compare all batteries to each other. </div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div
dir="ltr">Jay</div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Peltz
power. </div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">For example, a
Rolls L16 ex has 3500 cycles at 50% DOD, and it\u2019s a 371 amp hr at 6v or
2.226 kWh </div><div dir="ltr">Retail is $400 </div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div
dir="ltr">3500 cycles x 1.1 kWh At 50 DOD=3850 kWh </div><div dir="ltr">$400
/ 3850 kWh = $.10 kWh </div><div dir="ltr">10 years of 50% cycling
daily </div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Compared to say a
mid grade US battery, 1400 cycles to 50%, 400 amp hr. 2.4 kWh </div><div
dir="ltr">$325/1680 kWh = $.19 kWh. </div><div dir="ltr">3.8 yrs life</div><div
dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Compare to say BI</div><div
dir="ltr">$1000 kWh roughly. </div><div dir="ltr">If you get 10,000
cycles, that works out to same cost. $.10 per kWh. </div><div dir="ltr">27
yrs, but will the chemistry actually last that long?</div><div
dir="ltr">However, you have a massive upfront money cost. </div><div
dir="ltr">And for those of us off grid, you can\u2019t really cycle 100%. And
many lithium in the fine print don\u2019t want you to charge to 100% daily.
Let\u2019s assume you start the generator at 10% and charge to 95%, now your
usable amount is actually 85%, not 100%. </div><div dir="ltr">Cost per
kWh goes to $.12. </div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div
dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><blockquote
type="cite">On Aug 11, 2020, at 6:04 AM, William Miller <<a
href="mailto:william@millersolar.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">william@millersolar.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote
type="cite"><div dir="ltr">\ufeff<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Friends:</span></p><p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p><p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">I am hoping
y\u2019all can tell me I am doing something wrong with my arithmetic. I have
registered to purchase Blue Planet batteries and priced the product. I
come up with math that indicates that comparing usable amp/hours to
usable amp/hours, that the Blue Planet is 5 times the cost of a flooded
L-16 battery array on a cost per kilowatt/hour. Can this be true?</span></p><p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p><p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">I am using
these parameters:</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p><p
style="margin-left:0.75in"><span
style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><span>1.<span
style="font:7pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><span
style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">DOD for
flooded L16s: 50%</span></p><p style="margin-left:0.75in"><span
style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><span>2.<span
style="font:7pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><span
style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">DOD for
Blue Planet: 100%</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p><p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">I hope I am
wrong.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p><p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Also, we
often install battery arrays that are upwards of 4,000 AH. For example,
we installed 5,668 of East Penn flooded batteries on a couple of
projects. To acquire the same capacity in Blue Planet would require 9
cabinets (again 50% DOD versus 100% DOD). Is this correct design? Is
it practical to install 9 cabinets? Does the system detect and
compensate for circulating currents in this many parallel strings?</span></p><p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p><p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Thanks in
advance.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p><p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">William
Miller</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p><p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p><p
class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> RE-wrenches
[mailto:<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jerry Shafer<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, August 9, 2020
12:02 PM<br><b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches]
Best Battery</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><div><p
class="MsoNormal">Wrenchel have been very happy with all my Blue Planet
battery systems, best battery you will install.</p><div><p
class="MsoNormal">Jerry</p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><div><div><p
class="MsoNormal">On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 11:19 AM <<a
href="mailto:drake.chamberlin@redwoodalliance.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">drake.chamberlin@redwoodalliance.org</a>>
wrote:</p></div><blockquote
style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in
6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12pt">Hello Wrenches,<br><br>What is the best
Li-Ion battery to use with an off grid system?<br><br>Thanks,<br><br>Drake<br>Athens
Electric<br><br>-- <br>_______________________________________________<br>List
sponsored by Redwood Alliance<br><br>List Address: <a
href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>Change
listserver email address & settings:<br><a
href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List-Archive:
<a
href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List
rules & etiquette:<br><a
href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br><br>Check
out or update participant bios:<br><a
href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a></p></blockquote></div></div>
<span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>List
sponsored by Redwood Alliance</span><br><span></span><br><span>List
Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a></span><br><span></span><br><span>Change
listserver email address & settings:</span><br><span><a
href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a></span><br><span></span><br><span>List-Archive:
<a
href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a></span><br><span></span><br><span>List
rules & etiquette:</span><br><span><a
href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a></span><br><span></span><br><span>Check
out or update participant bios:</span><br><span><a
href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a></span><br><span></span><br></div></blockquote></div>_______________________________________________<br>
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance<br>
<br>
List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
Change listserver email address & settings:<br>
<a
href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
List-Archive: <a
href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
List rules & etiquette:<br>
<a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br>
<br>
Check out or update participant bios:<br>
<a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
List Address: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
Change listserver email address & settings:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a>
List-Archive: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a>
List rules & etiquette:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a>
Check out or update participant bios:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a>
</pre></blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br><span>~~~~~~~~~~~<br>
</span>
<div class="moz-signature">
<span>Jeff Clearwater</span><span><span><br>
</span>Village Power Design<br>
</span><span><span><span><a
href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-clearwater-0622a312/">linkedin</a>
</span></span></span><br>
<span><span><a href="http://www.villagepowerdesign.com">www.villagepowerdesign.com</a></span><br>
cell - <span style="display: inline; font-size: inherit; padding: 0px;
color: rgb(80, 80, 80);" class="__postbox-detected-content
__postbox-detected-phone"
__postbox-detected-content="__postbox-detected-phone">413-559-9763<br>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</span></span></div>
<span><span style="display: inline; font-size: inherit; padding: 0px;
color: rgb(80, 80, 80);" class="__postbox-detected-content
__postbox-detected-phone"
__postbox-detected-content="__postbox-detected-phone"></span></span></div>
</body></html>