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Thanks Hans, we look forward to meeting you there!</div>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> RE-wrenches <re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org> on behalf of Kent Osterberg <kent@coveoregon.com><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 15, 2020 4:06 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] White wire for DC- after ground fault breaker</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>William,<br>
<br>
This is new for the 2017 code:<br>
2017 NEC 690.13(D) An equipment disconnecting means shall simultaneously disconnect all current carrying conductors that are not solidly grounded. Yet Schneider, Outback, Midnite, Magnum, and ... all still have a single PV wire disconnected at the charge controller
in their panels.<br>
<br>
As far as fusing both conductors goes, most PV circuit over current protection devices are selected so that they can never be tripped by the PV system. Adding another over current device in the non-solidly grounded conductor would be redundant. In a combiner
box, a fault in one string can be back fed by many strings and thus trip an over current device, if the array is solidly grounded or if accidentally grounded and the ground fault detection scheme doesn't detect it. And even in a combiner box an current device
in the non-solidly grounded conductor would be redundant. <br>
<br>
Kent Osterberg<br>
Blue Mountain Solar<br>
<br>
<div class="x_moz-cite-prefix">On 6/15/2020 12:24 PM, William Miller wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">Wrenches:
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Well now that the NFPA has acknowledged that GFDI protected circuits do not solidly ground the \u201cgrounded\u201c conductor, and we know they can\u2019t be white in color, it begs the next question: Should these sort-of-grounded grounded conductors be switched
and over-current protected?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The manual for the Schneider charge controller shows the negative (or referenced) switched on one page and not switched on another. Outback FM 100 manual shows the negative not switched. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Anyone have an argument either way?<br>
<br>
<div dir="ltr">William Miller
<div>
<div><a class="x_moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.millersolar.com">www.millersolar.com</a></div>
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<div dir="ltr"><br>
<blockquote type="cite">On Jun 13, 2020, at 6:21 PM, Kent Osterberg <a class="x_moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:kent@coveoregon.com">
<kent@coveoregon.com></a> wrote:<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">\ufeff James,<br>
<br>
Here's the code reference: 2017 690.31(B)(1). Only solidly grounded PV system conductors shall be marked in accordance with 200.6 (white or gray).
<br>
<br>
Kent Osterberg <br>
Blue Mountain Solar<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="x_moz-cite-prefix">On 6/13/2020 5:56 PM, James Jarvis wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="auto">Brian, thank you very much. With your hint of "functional ground" I can clearly see that I am not allowed to have those be white wires.
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Now time for me to incur the full wrath by daring to question the infinite wisdom of the "highly qualified individual" from the state.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">(all kinds of fun stuff from this guy. Got another violation for having a donut type current transformer over a line voltage wire. He said that wasn't allowed.)<br>
<br>
<div dir="auto">Thank you,<br>
<br>
-James Jefferson Jarvis<br>
APRS World, LLC<br>
+1-507-454-2727<br>
<br>
(Sent from my phone. My apologies for spelling errors and brevity.)</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="x_gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="x_gmail_attr">On Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 17:41 Brian Mehalic <<a href="mailto:brian@solarenergy.org">brian@solarenergy.org</a>> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="x_gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex; border-left:1px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex">
Change in 2017 to \u201cfunctional grounded\u201d was to clarify this - it\u2019s not solid when it is thru a fuse or breaker than can be interrupted either in the event of a ground-fault or if the breaker is intentionally opened. 2017 makes it clear that there are very few
solidly grounded systems (2 or less PV source circuits, not touching a building the only case it is allowed). Pardon any incorrect language as I don\u2019t have my code book, but I do think the 2017 NECŪ makes it very clear, including in the definition of function
grounded, that those conductors cannot be white or gray, regardless of if the system has a transformer-based or TL inverter or a CC with integrated or an external GF breaker/fuse.
<br>
<br>
Brian<br>
<br>
> On Jun 13, 2020, at 3:05 PM, greg egan <<a href="mailto:greg@remotepowerinc.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">greg@remotepowerinc.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> <br>
> \ufeffJim, Hope all is well with you and yours. on white wires in circuits, In 3 ph. circuits you can get killed breaking into a neutral that's common to other circuits. One example, working on 277 lighting, you throw the breaker or light switch on the one
circuit you're working so the hot isn't hot anymore. It's standard practice for 3 ph. lighting ckts to share a neutral. The white wire in your ckt is wire nutted in the j-box up in the ceiling to the common neutrals. Those neutrals are hot to ground when
their respective ckts are hot and they're carrying current.<br>
> <br>
> Just thought it was worth mentioning on this list that there's no hard fast rule that all white wires are dead. It depends on the ckt.<br>
> <br>
> Best,<br>
> Greg Egan<br>
> Remote Power Inc.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Message: 11<br>
> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 15:17:19 -0500<br>
> From: James Jarvis<<a href="mailto:jj@aprsworld.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">jj@aprsworld.com</a>><br>
> To: RE-wrenches<<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>><br>
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] White wire for DC- after ground fault breaker<br>
> Message-ID:<br>
> <CAFWEuYVMACXebixHtyRVYQ5Xnmaur=<a href="mailto:UgTv6Etu5TNEpm00nhoA@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">UgTv6Etu5TNEpm00nhoA@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
> <br>
> Hello Wrenches,<br>
> <br>
> I have an off-grid install where I was recently red-tagged by the state<br>
> inspector. System is 24 volt with battery, Magnum inverters, some Magnum<br>
> charge controllers, and a Morningstar charge controller. It is permitted<br>
> under NEC 2017.<br>
> <br>
> One of the inspectors issues was that my DC- conductors to the array /<br>
> rapid shut down box are black color. He wants them to be white because he<br>
> says they are solidly grounded. I reason that they are only solidly<br>
> grounded when they are solidly grounded. As soon as the ground fault<br>
> protection breaker opens, they are floating at array voltage. I think it is<br>
> misleading and unsafe to have a white conductor that can have hundreds of<br>
> volts of potential on it when a breaker trips.<br>
> <br>
> I haven't dug into the code yet. I'm just working on the logic that one of<br>
> my mentors put into me which is white wires better not have voltage<br>
> potential on them. "That's the sort of sh*t that kills electricians" is<br>
> what he repeatedly said ... and it's stuck with me.<br>
> <br>
> Thoughts? I'm backed into the corner with the state, so I will be changing<br>
> them to white even if it is unsafe ... unless I have some code backing.<br>
> <br>
> <rant>Changing the wires to white will get interesting up on the roof. I<br>
> wonder if they want me to cut off the black MC on the modules and replace<br>
> them with white? This is mostly just an exercise in the State of Minnesota<br>
> only wanting to know about and allow micro inverters. They brought in a<br>
> state inspector from three hours away who kept repeating that he was a<br>
> "highly qualified individual", but was unable to identify or recognize a<br>
> charge controller. He kept referring to the charge controllers as<br>
> inverters.</rant off><br>
> <br>
> Thanks,<br>
> <br>
> -James Jarvis<br>
> APRS World, LLC<br>
> +1-507-454-2727<br>
> <a href="http://www.aprsworld.com/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">
http://www.aprsworld.com/</a><br>
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