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<p>It also seems like there should be some sort of wire marking to
indicate functional grounding. This code change makes sense, but
it unleashes many new questions as well. My vote is that is that
PV is already current limited, so I don't see good reason to add
fusing to the "functionally grounded conductor". <br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760</pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/15/20 3:24 PM, William Miller
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:17944884-BAF8-47C4-90F1-E5D5CF632762@millersolar.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
Wrenches:
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Well now that the NFPA has acknowledged that GFDI protected
circuits do not solidly ground the \u201cgrounded\u201c conductor, and we
know they can\u2019t be white in color, it begs the next question:
Should these sort-of-grounded grounded conductors be switched
and over-current protected?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The manual for the Schneider charge controller shows the
negative (or referenced) switched on one page and not switched
on another. Outback FM 100 manual shows the negative not
switched. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Anyone have an argument either way?<br>
<br>
<div dir="ltr">William Miller
<div>
<div><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.millersolar.com">www.millersolar.com</a></div>
</div>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<blockquote type="cite">On Jun 13, 2020, at 6:21 PM, Kent
Osterberg <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:kent@coveoregon.com"><kent@coveoregon.com></a> wrote:<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">\ufeff
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8">
James,<br>
<br>
Here's the code reference: 2017 690.31(B)(1). Only solidly
grounded PV system conductors shall be marked in accordance
with 200.6 (white or gray). <br>
<br>
Kent Osterberg <br>
Blue Mountain Solar<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/13/2020 5:56 PM, James
Jarvis wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAFWEuYXmo9OXiC-7FwoFLasT+8d1N1D+FGoD4gHQ8jBjjByMLQ@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="auto">Brian, thank you very much. With your hint
of "functional ground" I can clearly see that I am not
allowed to have those be white wires.
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Now time for me to incur the full wrath
by daring to question the infinite wisdom of the
"highly qualified individual" from the state.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">(all kinds of fun stuff from this guy.
Got another violation for having a donut type current
transformer over a line voltage wire. He said that
wasn't allowed.)<br>
<br>
<div data-smartmail="gmail_signature" dir="auto">Thank
you,<br>
<br>
-James Jefferson Jarvis<br>
APRS World, LLC<br>
+1-507-454-2727<br>
<br>
(Sent from my phone. My apologies for spelling
errors and brevity.)</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Jun 13, 2020,
17:41 Brian Mehalic <<a
href="mailto:brian@solarenergy.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">brian@solarenergy.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Change
in 2017 to \u201cfunctional grounded\u201d was to clarify this -
it\u2019s not solid when it is thru a fuse or breaker than
can be interrupted either in the event of a
ground-fault or if the breaker is intentionally
opened. 2017 makes it clear that there are very few
solidly grounded systems (2 or less PV source
circuits, not touching a building the only case it is
allowed). Pardon any incorrect language as I don\u2019t
have my code book, but I do think the 2017 NEC® makes
it very clear, including in the definition of function
grounded, that those conductors cannot be white or
gray, regardless of if the system has a
transformer-based or TL inverter or a CC with
integrated or an external GF breaker/fuse. <br>
<br>
Brian<br>
<br>
> On Jun 13, 2020, at 3:05 PM, greg egan <<a
href="mailto:greg@remotepowerinc.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">greg@remotepowerinc.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
> <br>
> \ufeffJim, Hope all is well with you and yours. on
white wires in circuits, In 3 ph. circuits you can get
killed breaking into a neutral that's common to other
circuits. One example, working on 277 lighting, you
throw the breaker or light switch on the one circuit
you're working so the hot isn't hot anymore. It's
standard practice for 3 ph. lighting ckts to share a
neutral. The white wire in your ckt is wire nutted in
the j-box up in the ceiling to the common neutrals.
Those neutrals are hot to ground when their respective
ckts are hot and they're carrying current.<br>
> <br>
> Just thought it was worth mentioning on this list
that there's no hard fast rule that all white wires
are dead. It depends on the ckt.<br>
> <br>
> Best,<br>
> Greg Egan<br>
> Remote Power Inc.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Message: 11<br>
> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 15:17:19 -0500<br>
> From: James Jarvis<<a
href="mailto:jj@aprsworld.com" target="_blank"
rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">jj@aprsworld.com</a>><br>
> To: RE-wrenches<<a
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>><br>
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] White wire for DC- after
ground fault breaker<br>
> Message-ID:<br>
> <CAFWEuYVMACXebixHtyRVYQ5Xnmaur=<a
href="mailto:UgTv6Etu5TNEpm00nhoA@mail.gmail.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">UgTv6Etu5TNEpm00nhoA@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
> <br>
> Hello Wrenches,<br>
> <br>
> I have an off-grid install where I was recently
red-tagged by the state<br>
> inspector. System is 24 volt with battery, Magnum
inverters, some Magnum<br>
> charge controllers, and a Morningstar charge
controller. It is permitted<br>
> under NEC 2017.<br>
> <br>
> One of the inspectors issues was that my DC-
conductors to the array /<br>
> rapid shut down box are black color. He wants
them to be white because he<br>
> says they are solidly grounded. I reason that
they are only solidly<br>
> grounded when they are solidly grounded. As soon
as the ground fault<br>
> protection breaker opens, they are floating at
array voltage. I think it is<br>
> misleading and unsafe to have a white conductor
that can have hundreds of<br>
> volts of potential on it when a breaker trips.<br>
> <br>
> I haven't dug into the code yet. I'm just working
on the logic that one of<br>
> my mentors put into me which is white wires
better not have voltage<br>
> potential on them. "That's the sort of sh*t that
kills electricians" is<br>
> what he repeatedly said ... and it's stuck with
me.<br>
> <br>
> Thoughts? I'm backed into the corner with the
state, so I will be changing<br>
> them to white even if it is unsafe ... unless I
have some code backing.<br>
> <br>
> <rant>Changing the wires to white will get
interesting up on the roof. I<br>
> wonder if they want me to cut off the black MC on
the modules and replace<br>
> them with white? This is mostly just an exercise
in the State of Minnesota<br>
> only wanting to know about and allow micro
inverters. They brought in a<br>
> state inspector from three hours away who kept
repeating that he was a<br>
> "highly qualified individual", but was unable to
identify or recognize a<br>
> charge controller. He kept referring to the
charge controllers as<br>
> inverters.</rant off><br>
> <br>
> Thanks,<br>
> <br>
> -James Jarvis<br>
> APRS World, LLC<br>
> +1-507-454-2727<br>
> <a href="http://www.aprsworld.com/"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.aprsworld.com/</a><br>
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