<div dir="ltr">James,<div><br></div><div>I might open the ground fault breaker and show him with the ohmmeter that this is not a solidly grounded system. You are absolutely correct with this and if he gets tough just let him know you need him to sign off personally that you had informed him of this exact code reference. Or he may sign off from the office...</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 7:21 PM Kent Osterberg <<a href="mailto:kent@coveoregon.com">kent@coveoregon.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
James,<br>
<br>
Here's the code reference: 2017 690.31(B)(1). Only solidly grounded
PV system conductors shall be marked in accordance with 200.6 (white
or gray).
<br>
<br>
Kent Osterberg
<br>
Blue Mountain Solar<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 6/13/2020 5:56 PM, James Jarvis
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="auto">Brian, thank you very much. With your hint of
"functional ground" I can clearly see that I am not allowed to
have those be white wires.
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Now time for me to incur the full wrath by
daring to question the infinite wisdom of the "highly
qualified individual" from the state.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">(all kinds of fun stuff from this guy. Got
another violation for having a donut type current transformer
over a line voltage wire. He said that wasn't allowed.)<br>
<br>
<div dir="auto">Thank you,<br>
<br>
-James Jefferson Jarvis<br>
APRS World, LLC<br>
+1-507-454-2727<br>
<br>
(Sent from my phone. My apologies for spelling errors and
brevity.)</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 17:41
Brian Mehalic <<a href="mailto:brian@solarenergy.org" target="_blank">brian@solarenergy.org</a>> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Change in
2017 to \u201cfunctional grounded\u201d was to clarify this - it\u2019s not
solid when it is thru a fuse or breaker than can be
interrupted either in the event of a ground-fault or if the
breaker is intentionally opened. 2017 makes it clear that
there are very few solidly grounded systems (2 or less PV
source circuits, not touching a building the only case it is
allowed). Pardon any incorrect language as I don\u2019t have my
code book, but I do think the 2017 NEC® makes it very clear,
including in the definition of function grounded, that those
conductors cannot be white or gray, regardless of if the
system has a transformer-based or TL inverter or a CC with
integrated or an external GF breaker/fuse. <br>
<br>
Brian<br>
<br>
> On Jun 13, 2020, at 3:05 PM, greg egan <<a href="mailto:greg@remotepowerinc.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">greg@remotepowerinc.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
> <br>
> \ufeffJim, Hope all is well with you and yours. on white
wires in circuits, In 3 ph. circuits you can get killed
breaking into a neutral that's common to other circuits. One
example, working on 277 lighting, you throw the breaker or
light switch on the one circuit you're working so the hot
isn't hot anymore. It's standard practice for 3 ph. lighting
ckts to share a neutral. The white wire in your ckt is wire
nutted in the j-box up in the ceiling to the common neutrals.
Those neutrals are hot to ground when their respective ckts
are hot and they're carrying current.<br>
> <br>
> Just thought it was worth mentioning on this list that
there's no hard fast rule that all white wires are dead. It
depends on the ckt.<br>
> <br>
> Best,<br>
> Greg Egan<br>
> Remote Power Inc.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Message: 11<br>
> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 15:17:19 -0500<br>
> From: James Jarvis<<a href="mailto:jj@aprsworld.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">jj@aprsworld.com</a>><br>
> To: RE-wrenches<<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>><br>
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] White wire for DC- after ground
fault breaker<br>
> Message-ID:<br>
> <CAFWEuYVMACXebixHtyRVYQ5Xnmaur=<a href="mailto:UgTv6Etu5TNEpm00nhoA@mail.gmail.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">UgTv6Etu5TNEpm00nhoA@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
> <br>
> Hello Wrenches,<br>
> <br>
> I have an off-grid install where I was recently
red-tagged by the state<br>
> inspector. System is 24 volt with battery, Magnum
inverters, some Magnum<br>
> charge controllers, and a Morningstar charge controller.
It is permitted<br>
> under NEC 2017.<br>
> <br>
> One of the inspectors issues was that my DC- conductors
to the array /<br>
> rapid shut down box are black color. He wants them to be
white because he<br>
> says they are solidly grounded. I reason that they are
only solidly<br>
> grounded when they are solidly grounded. As soon as the
ground fault<br>
> protection breaker opens, they are floating at array
voltage. I think it is<br>
> misleading and unsafe to have a white conductor that can
have hundreds of<br>
> volts of potential on it when a breaker trips.<br>
> <br>
> I haven't dug into the code yet. I'm just working on the
logic that one of<br>
> my mentors put into me which is white wires better not
have voltage<br>
> potential on them. "That's the sort of sh*t that kills
electricians" is<br>
> what he repeatedly said ... and it's stuck with me.<br>
> <br>
> Thoughts? I'm backed into the corner with the state, so I
will be changing<br>
> them to white even if it is unsafe ... unless I have some
code backing.<br>
> <br>
> <rant>Changing the wires to white will get
interesting up on the roof. I<br>
> wonder if they want me to cut off the black MC on the
modules and replace<br>
> them with white? This is mostly just an exercise in the
State of Minnesota<br>
> only wanting to know about and allow micro inverters.
They brought in a<br>
> state inspector from three hours away who kept repeating
that he was a<br>
> "highly qualified individual", but was unable to identify
or recognize a<br>
> charge controller. He kept referring to the charge
controllers as<br>
> inverters.</rant off><br>
> <br>
> Thanks,<br>
> <br>
> -James Jarvis<br>
> APRS World, LLC<br>
> +1-507-454-2727<br>
> <a href="http://www.aprsworld.com/" rel="noreferrer
noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.aprsworld.com/</a><br>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div><br></div><div><font color="#305A78" face="'times new roman', serif"><br></font></div><div><br></div>Mac Lewis<br><br><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:medium;color:rgb(255,153,0)"><b><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="3"><p align="left"><font color="#000000" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:small"><span style="font-family:arial;font-weight:normal;color:rgb(48,90,120)"><font face="'times new roman', serif">"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." </font><span style="font-weight:700;color:rgb(104,104,104)"><font face="'times new roman', serif">-Sócrates</font></span></span></span></font></p></font></b></span></div>