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<p>To change this, we need to recognize we are "fighting City Hall",
and I doubt the CMP will be motivated to make changes on their
own. Maybe this has always been more political than technical,
but it seems that those who are opposed to the current
requirements need to make it known through the formal processes.
The CMP is required to respond and in that response we can learn
of their reasons for not accepting any changes, or the changes
they would be willing to consider. I just don't see things
changing otherwise. <br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/7/2020 10:18 AM, James Jarvis
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAFWEuYXatCXbpHHE8v6N+nX=zX3yQZFW9uab71q6Es-tFsjC1A@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">If first responders are the point of all the rapid
shutdown, there needs to be better exemptions. I personally have
a 20kW solar array on a 100 year old unused barn at my farm. The
roof is at 50 degrees slope and needs a 60ft boom lift to
access. There was significant extra expense and effort for the
rapid shut down. And there is absolutely zero chance that a
first responder would do anything other than watch the barn
burn. And now I have an array that needs a $1,000 piece of
rental equipment to get to the back of any module.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>There is a big difference between the stuff that is in big
cities and what is in rural and what is in remote locations.
For my telecom customers in Alaska and Antarctica, what is the
point of decreasing reliability by putting module level
electronics on solar arrays that require a multiple hour
helicopter flight to get to. That's not protecting
anybody other than the MLPE manufacturer's profit.<br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"
data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>-James Jarvis<br>
APRS World, LLC<br>
+1-507-454-2727<br>
</div>
<a href="http://www.aprsworld.com/" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.aprsworld.com/</a><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 8:43 AM
Christopher Warfel <<a
href="mailto:cwarfel@entech-engineering.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">cwarfel@entech-engineering.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>I believe Rapid Shutdown was mostly a solution looking
for a problem. The only way I see this becoming
"reasonable" is to present "grievances" to the Code Making
Panel WITH a solution for their consideration. Based on
experience from being part of an outreach program that
taught approximately 10k firefighters over four years, I
have asked that they add to the Directory, the language
that states what type of solar electric system is on site
(Microinverter, dc optimizer, string, multimode, grid
isolated) so that First Responders don't have to guess. I
realize this is different than MLPE, but it targets the
person who Rapid Shutdown came into being for, and that
was the First Responder. Chris<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div>On 5/6/2020 10:37 PM, Ray wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p>Spending more time on the roof, while putting more
equipment and parts to meet MLPE, means more trips up
the ladder, which increases, not decreases the #1 worker
safety danger: Falls. Please correct me if I have
somehow misunderstood this, but MLPE is not making
installers safer based on OSHA information provided.
Also after installation, which system is more likely to
require workers to return to work on the roof, pulling
up modules, trying to find problem equipment? More
connections is More safe? Really? I haven't had to
climb back up on the roof on any of my older, lower
voltage off grid work in almost a decade.<br>
</p>
<p>Once again, MLPE has its place, (larger systems,
multiple subarrays, higher voltage) but we should have
sensible exemptions as have been mentioned already. We
are endangering ourselves and our employees needlessly,
to comply with 690.12. <br>
</p>
<pre cols="72">Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760</pre>
<div>On 5/6/20 8:41 PM, <a
href="mailto:drake.chamberlin@redwoodalliance.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">drake.chamberlin@redwoodalliance.org</a>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p>Interestingly enough, the data on the <a
href="https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/AccidentSearch.search?p_logger=1&acc_description=&acc_Abstract=solar&acc_keyword=&sic=&naics=&Office=All&officetype=All&endmonth=05&endday=05&endyear=2002&startmonth=05&startday=05&startyear=2021&InspNr="
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">link</a> provided
shows accidents from gas explosions, falls, health
problems and industrial injuries. None of these
incidents could have been prevented by module level
power electronics. This is typical of the data that
I've seen so far. </p>
<div id="gmail-m_-1291776225624998033signature">---<br>
<div
style="margin:0px;padding:0px;font-family:monospace"> </div>
</div>
<p><br>
</p>
<p id="gmail-m_-1291776225624998033reply-intro">On
2020-05-06 17:22, Martin Herzfeld wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding:0px
0.4em;border-left:2px solid rgb(16,16,255);margin:0px">
<div id="gmail-m_-1291776225624998033replybody1">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">There could be an issue of
encouraging MLPE for worker safety?</div>
<div dir="auto"> </div>
<div dir="auto">1. This is data involving
incidents with workers in the OSHA Fatalities
and Catastrophe Investigation Summaries found
here:</div>
<div dir="auto"><a
href="https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/AccidentSearch.search?p_logger=1&acc_description=&acc_Abstract=solar&acc_keyword=&sic=&naics=&Office=All&officetype=All&endmonth=05&endday=05&endyear=2002&startmonth=05&startday=05&startyear=2021&InspNr="
rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/AccidentSearch.search?p_logger=1&acc_description=&acc_Abstract=solar&acc_keyword=&sic=&naics=&Office=All&officetype=All&endmonth=05&endday=05&endyear=2002&startmonth=05&startday=05&startyear=2021&InspNr=</a></div>
<div dir="auto"> </div>
<div dir="auto">2. In the past I've observed an
arc fault at the module level with traditional
string systems without a listed arc-fault
circuit interrupter NEC/CEC 690.11. The
function in NEC/CEC 690.12 would be - to <u>reduce
the shock hazard </u>- for <em>emergency
responders</em> or <em>firefighters? (NEC
2020).</em> However, <span
style="font-family:sans-serif">I've observed
thermal events in the panelboard with plans
and workmanship issues. </span></div>
<div dir="auto"><span
style="font-family:sans-serif"> </span></div>
<div dir="auto"><span
style="font-family:sans-serif">On the other
hand, falls are the #1 reason for incidents
in the construction industry. </span></div>
<div dir="auto"> </div>
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">All the best, <br>
<br>
Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy
Council (IREC) Certified Master Trainer \u2122
for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation
Professional #IREC 10037<br>
Contract Training Provider (CTP)<br>
Adjunct Professor, Energy<br>
<br>
California Solar & Electrical Contractor
License #00833782 C46, C10, D56, D31, C-7
- Since 2004<br>
Solar, Electrical, Trenching, Pole
Installation & Maintenance,
Instrumentation<br>
<br>
Contract Solar (PV) Technical Inspector -
3rd Party Inspections <br>
Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV
Installer #17, OSHA 30<br>
OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer
#32-0105338<br>
CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom
Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG<br>
<br>
* Professional Member, International
Association of Electrical Inspectors
#7035507 - Since 2006<br>
* Accredited and Registered North American
Board of Certified Energy Practitioners
(NABCEP) Continuing Education (CE) Training
Provider<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">On Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 8:29 AM
<<a
href="mailto:drake.chamberlin@redwoodalliance.org"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">drake.chamberlin@redwoodalliance.org</a>>
wrote:</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif">
<div
id="gmail-m_-1291776225624998033v1m_2290657155954236750m_4502811265567478132m_3712700432789776903m_-6733482047517057893m_-3407248358338594000m_5945935475487622897m_5292728194858110127m_-7102267540490521419signature"><br>
<div>I would like to see real data on the
fire risk of string inverters. Anecdotal
problems are not data.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The industry is definitely heading
toward MLPE due to the rapid shutdown
requirements. In many cases MLPE makes
sense, in other cases it doesn't. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Systems that are more cost effective
and reliable can often be built by using
string inverters.</div>
<div
id="gmail-m_-1291776225624998033v1m_2290657155954236750m_4502811265567478132m_3712700432789776903m_-6733482047517057893m_-3407248358338594000m_5945935475487622897m_5292728194858110127m_-7102267540490521419v1signature">---</div>
<br>
<div
style="margin:0px;padding:0px;font-family:monospace"> </div>
</div>
<p><br>
</p>
<p
id="gmail-m_-1291776225624998033v1m_2290657155954236750m_4502811265567478132m_3712700432789776903m_-6733482047517057893m_-3407248358338594000m_5945935475487622897m_5292728194858110127m_-7102267540490521419reply-intro">On
2020-04-29 22:05, Jason Szumlanski wrote:</p>
<blockquote style="padding:0px
0.4em;border-left:2px solid
rgb(16,16,255);margin:0px">
<div
id="gmail-m_-1291776225624998033v1m_2290657155954236750m_4502811265567478132m_3712700432789776903m_-6733482047517057893m_-3407248358338594000m_5945935475487622897m_5292728194858110127m_-7102267540490521419replybody1">
<div dir="auto">
<div><span
style="font-family:verdana,geneva,sans-serif;font-size:13.3333px">"Rapid
Shutdown does not prevent fires."</span><br>
<br>
Not true. If the effect of RS is to
steer the market to MLPE, I believe
it has a significant impact on
reducing fire risk. As one who has
watched a DC conductor fire smolder
out of control, I am sold on an AC
module or microinverter
architecture. While RS on a DC array
doesn't necessarily reduce fire risk
within the array, it still has the
potential to reduce severity and
spread. Nothing is going to prevent
all fires. I get that. We're talking
about risk mitigation when it comes
to RS. </div>
<div dir="auto"> </div>
<div dir="auto">As for "dependable
string inverters," the one
dependable feature is failure at
least once in the module lifetime,
accompanied by a shocking repair
bill.</div>
<div dir="auto"> </div>
<div dir="auto">I'm not a shiny object
following kind of guy, but the
writing is on the wall. MLPE is the
future. Modular, serviceable,
disposable if you will. Like it or
not, Edison is going to lose this
battle to Tesla (Tom vs Nikola). And
I live less than 5 minutes away from
Tommy E's winter home in Fort Myers,
FL. And I "grew up" in the industry
living off-grid in DC power. But AC
distribution wins for safety at
various scales.</div>
<div dir="auto"> </div>
<div dir="auto"> </div>
<div dir="auto"> </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
<br>
<br>
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="ltr">On Wed, Apr 29,
2020, 9:42 PM <<a
href="mailto:drake.chamberlin@redwoodalliance.org"
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">drake.chamberlin@redwoodalliance.org</a>>
wrote:</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif">
<p>Rapid Shutdown does not
prevent fires; it was
originally drafted to allow
firefighters to vent a roof
without being hindered by
energized PV arrays. This
rule was expanded to include
other DC wiring from PV
sources.</p>
<p>As for PV safety, I'd like
to see some significant,
statistical evidence that
shows there is a major fire
danger from PV relative to
other sources. A fire from a
solar array gets a lot more
press than one from a gas
leak, bad wiring or an ash
tray emptied into a
wastepaper basket.</p>
<p>Large public buildings
should have all the
protection that is
available. Does one size fit
all?</p>
<p>Would it be reasonable to
allow residential
installations under 12 kW,
with 1/4 of the roof
adjacent to the array
available for venting, to be
excepted from 690.12? What
about sparsely occupied
commercial buildings with
ample roof area open for
ventilation? </p>
<p>Many of us have chosen to
work with renewable energy
technology to lessen the
harms caused by fossil fuel
extraction and combustion.
The need for non-carbon
based energy sources has
become extremely clear.</p>
<p>The old string inverters
still chug along year after
year, with little or no
maintenance. Someone must
pay for the ongoing
maintenance of module level
electronics. Dependable
string inverter systems
should be allowed unless
statically significant
danger can be demonstrated.</p>
<p>Drake</p>
<div
id="gmail-m_-1291776225624998033v1m_2290657155954236750m_4502811265567478132m_3712700432789776903m_-6733482047517057893m_-3407248358338594000m_5945935475487622897m_5292728194858110127m_-7102267540490521419v1m_8703790999668491827m_-4822667307395758786signature">---<br>
<div
style="margin:0px;padding:0px;font-family:monospace"> </div>
</div>
<p><br>
</p>
<p
id="gmail-m_-1291776225624998033v1m_2290657155954236750m_4502811265567478132m_3712700432789776903m_-6733482047517057893m_-3407248358338594000m_5945935475487622897m_5292728194858110127m_-7102267540490521419v1m_8703790999668491827m_-4822667307395758786reply-intro">On
2020-04-29 16:01, Jason
Szumlanski wrote:</p>
<blockquote style="padding:0px
0.4em;border-left:2px solid
rgb(16,16,255);margin:0px">
<div
id="gmail-m_-1291776225624998033v1m_2290657155954236750m_4502811265567478132m_3712700432789776903m_-6733482047517057893m_-3407248358338594000m_5945935475487622897m_5292728194858110127m_-7102267540490521419v1m_8703790999668491827m_-4822667307395758786replybody1">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">I
have been to several
PV fires for string
inverter systems,
both commercial and
residential, and
have seen many DC
systems at serious
risk of fires or in
various stages of
melted insulation
and connectors. Most
of these systems
have exhibited good
to excellent
workmanship. Things
just went wrong.
Some were traceable
to animal damage,
wind, or other
unmitigated factors,
and some were
unexplained. I
disagree that there
isn't
justification for
rapid shutdown. </div>
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </div>
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">In
my opinion, what we
need is some
additional
innovation and
competition in the
MLPE space.
Reliability is
clearly a key
factor, but there is
no denying that MLPE
has added safety
benefits among other
benefits. And if you
do enough volume and
set up your business
for efficiency
(standardization of
product offerings),
MLPE isn't much more
expensive. It
becomes a negligible
cost relative to the
benefit. The value
proposition is easy
to convey. There are
limits to this, but
for the majority of
residential and
small commercial
installations, MLPE
has become the de
facto standard
around here. String
inverters are dinos,
and replacing 8-12
year old transformer
based inverters is
many times more
annoying than some
MLPE swaps. I will
admit that the roofs
around here are
pretty easy to walk,
so that is a factor
that might not apply
to you.</div>
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </div>
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
<div>If you go under
due to
manufacturer
product failures,
you are not
writing your
contracts right or
not charging
enough for service
issues beyond your
control. I believe
that's a red
herring. You might
suffer some
reputation damage,
but for someone
that has been
installing MLPE
for over a decade,
that is totally
manageable.
Consumers find a
service call to
replace MLPE a LOT
more palatable
than a surprise
inverter
replacement that
could cost
thousands of
dollars. People
just don't plan
for that.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Regarding rapid
shutdown devices,
I have also come
across a few that
"someone" has
bypassed around
here. I don't know
if they were never
installed properly
or
disabled/bypassed
due to failure. It
seemed suspicious
to me at the time.
I remember that it
made me wonder
what good is a
rapid shutdown
device if it is
easily defeated?
That's another
argument for MLPE.
It has pretty
failsafe MLPE
functionality.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Jason
Szumlanski</div>
<div>Florida Solar
Design Group</div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div
style="text-align:center"> </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">On Wed,
Apr 29, 2020 at
10:59 AM <<a
href="mailto:drake.chamberlin@redwoodalliance.org"
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">drake.chamberlin@redwoodalliance.org</a>>
wrote:</div>
<blockquote
style="margin:0px
0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px
solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif">
<p>Clearly, rapid
shutdown
increases cost
and reduces
reliability.
Given the
excellent safety
record of PV,
prior to rapid
shutdown being
required, it is
unnecessary. The
few anecdotal
incidents of PV
fires were not
enough to
justify the
requirement,
especially on
smaller systems.</p>
<p>According to a
friend who
worked for a
local
installation
company that
went under, a
big part of the
reason for their
failure was the
chronic
replacement of
microinverters
and optimizers.</p>
<p>What steps can
be taken to
create some
balance in the
rapid shutdown
requirements
that are in the
NEC?</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div
id="gmail-m_-1291776225624998033v1m_2290657155954236750m_4502811265567478132m_3712700432789776903m_-6733482047517057893m_-3407248358338594000m_5945935475487622897m_5292728194858110127m_-7102267540490521419v1m_8703790999668491827m_-4822667307395758786v1gmail-m_1345399320785373203signature">---<br>
<div
style="margin:0px;padding:0px;font-family:monospace"> </div>
</div>
<p><br>
</p>
<p
id="gmail-m_-1291776225624998033v1m_2290657155954236750m_4502811265567478132m_3712700432789776903m_-6733482047517057893m_-3407248358338594000m_5945935475487622897m_5292728194858110127m_-7102267540490521419v1m_8703790999668491827m_-4822667307395758786v1gmail-m_1345399320785373203reply-intro">On
2020-04-29
07:27, Sky Sims
wrote:</p>
<blockquote
style="padding:0px
0.4em;border-left:2px solid rgb(16,16,255);margin:0px">
<div
id="gmail-m_-1291776225624998033v1m_2290657155954236750m_4502811265567478132m_3712700432789776903m_-6733482047517057893m_-3407248358338594000m_5945935475487622897m_5292728194858110127m_-7102267540490521419v1m_8703790999668491827m_-4822667307395758786v1gmail-m_1345399320785373203replybody1">
<div
dir="auto">So
far rapid
shutdown has
been a
nightmare.
It's added a
lot of cost
for no
measurable
benefit.
<div>Using
always off
devices like
midnight solar
and Tigo makes
it impossible
to test open
circuit
voltages.
Which opens
the door to
tons of
problems when
commissioning
systems. </div>
<div>Also
we've been
trying out
midnight
Solar's
product and
have had an
absurd failure
rate. Which
means lots of
truck rolls
and
troubleshooting
and system
downtime. They
send
replacement
product but
they aren't
paying for the
lost weeks of
productivity.</div>
<div>We have
Tigo product
in hand and
are deciding
which project
to try it on.
But our big
concern about
using it is
not only the
inability to
confirm open
circuit
voltage of the
strings but
also the way
panels bypass
if the device
doesn't allow
the panel to
connect
properly. Both
of these
features are a
recipe for
problems and
potential
troubleshooting
nightmares.
The warranty
from Tigo
doesn't cover
our expense if
the product
fails. And
that's really
what our
reservations
about the
product boil
down to right
now. If we're
on a job with
50 units and
one fails, the
contractor or
the homeowner
will be the
ones eating
the expense of
finding it and
replacing it.
There has to
be a better
option. </div>
<div><br>
<div dir="ltr">Sky
Sims
<div><a
href="Https://EcologicalSystems.biz"
rel="noopener
noreferrer"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">Https://EcologicalSystems.biz</a></div>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<blockquote
style="padding:0px
0.4em;border-left:2px solid rgb(16,16,255);margin:0px">On Apr 28, 2020,
at 7:46 PM,
Corey
Shalanski <<a
href="mailto:coresolar@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">coresolar@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote
style="padding:0px
0.4em;border-left:2px solid rgb(16,16,255);margin:0px">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">Now
that 690.12 of
the <em>NEC</em> 2017
has been in
effect for
several years,
I am curious
how designers
and installers
are meeting
the associated
requirements
with string
inverter-based
systems (*not*
considering
microinverters
or DC
optimizers). I
am generally a
fan of the
KISS
principle, and
as best I can
determine the
<em>Tigo</em> TS4-F
device is one
of the
simplest
options
currently
available on
the market.
What are
others
finding?
<div> </div>
<div>I'd love
to hear about
favored
options for
complying with
rapid
shutdown. Any
success
stories? or
better yet,
any early
failures?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>--</div>
<div>Corey
Shalanski</div>
<div>Jah Light
Solar</div>
<div>Portland,
Jamaica</div>
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