<div dir="ltr">I agree: utilize the formal process, ideally with a group of folks. If you are a SEIA member, get involved in their Codes and Standards process. The additional directory language you suggest is not likely to be valuable to many first responders without significant training and documentation, and even then is still likely to get "lost" amongst other labels and directories. RS as required now instead focuses on an initiation device(s), so that the device is all responders need to look for - it's up to the installer to specify and put in the correct gear to make RS happen, and the AHJ to verify this.<br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><br></div><div>Brian Mehalic <br>NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional\u2122 R031508-59</div><div>National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member</div><div>(520) 204-6639<br><div><br></div><div><div><div>Solar Energy International<br><a href="http://www.solarenergy.org" target="_blank">http://www.solarenergy.org</a></div></div></div></div><div><br></div><div>SEI Professional Services</div><div><a href="http://www.seisolarpros.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:12.8px">http://www.s</span>eisolarpros.com</a><br></div><div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 6:43 AM Christopher Warfel <<a href="mailto:cwarfel@entech-engineering.com">cwarfel@entech-engineering.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>I believe Rapid Shutdown was mostly a solution looking for a
problem. The only way I see this becoming "reasonable" is to
present "grievances" to the Code Making Panel WITH a solution for
their consideration. Based on experience from being part of an
outreach program that taught approximately 10k firefighters over
four years, I have asked that they add to the Directory, the
language that states what type of solar electric system is on site
(Microinverter, dc optimizer, string, multimode, grid isolated) so
that First Responders don't have to guess. I realize this is
different than MLPE, but it targets the person who Rapid Shutdown
came into being for, and that was the First Responder. Chris<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div>On 5/6/2020 10:37 PM, Ray wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p>Spending more time on the roof, while putting more equipment
and parts to meet MLPE, means more trips up the ladder, which
increases, not decreases the #1 worker safety danger: Falls.
Please correct me if I have somehow misunderstood this, but MLPE
is not making installers safer based on OSHA information
provided. Also after installation, which system is more likely
to require workers to return to work on the roof, pulling up
modules, trying to find problem equipment? More connections is
More safe? Really? I haven't had to climb back up on the roof
on any of my older, lower voltage off grid work in almost a
decade.<br>
</p>
<p>Once again, MLPE has its place, (larger systems, multiple
subarrays, higher voltage) but we should have sensible
exemptions as have been mentioned already. We are endangering
ourselves and our employees needlessly, to comply with 690.12.
<br>
</p>
<pre cols="72">Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760</pre>
<div>On 5/6/20 8:41 PM, <a href="mailto:drake.chamberlin@redwoodalliance.org" target="_blank">drake.chamberlin@redwoodalliance.org</a>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p>Interestingly enough, the data on the <a href="https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/AccidentSearch.search?p_logger=1&acc_description=&acc_Abstract=solar&acc_keyword=&sic=&naics=&Office=All&officetype=All&endmonth=05&endday=05&endyear=2002&startmonth=05&startday=05&startyear=2021&InspNr=" target="_blank">link</a> provided shows accidents
from gas explosions, falls, health problems and industrial
injuries. None of these incidents could have been prevented by
module level power electronics. This is typical of the data
that I've seen so far. </p>
<div id="gmail-m_3891093475508580951signature">---<br>
<div style="margin:0px;padding:0px;font-family:monospace"> </div>
</div>
<p><br>
</p>
<p id="gmail-m_3891093475508580951reply-intro">On 2020-05-06 17:22, Martin Herzfeld wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding:0px 0.4em;border-left:2px solid rgb(16,16,255);margin:0px">
<div id="gmail-m_3891093475508580951replybody1">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">There could be an issue of encouraging
MLPE for worker safety?</div>
<div dir="auto"> </div>
<div dir="auto">1. This is data involving incidents
with workers in the OSHA Fatalities and Catastrophe
Investigation Summaries found here:</div>
<div dir="auto"><a href="https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/AccidentSearch.search?p_logger=1&acc_description=&acc_Abstract=solar&acc_keyword=&sic=&naics=&Office=All&officetype=All&endmonth=05&endday=05&endyear=2002&startmonth=05&startday=05&startyear=2021&InspNr=" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/AccidentSearch.search?p_logger=1&acc_description=&acc_Abstract=solar&acc_keyword=&sic=&naics=&Office=All&officetype=All&endmonth=05&endday=05&endyear=2002&startmonth=05&startday=05&startyear=2021&InspNr=</a></div>
<div dir="auto"> </div>
<div dir="auto">2. In the past I've observed an arc
fault at the module level with traditional string
systems without a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter
NEC/CEC 690.11. The function in NEC/CEC 690.12 would
be - to <u>reduce the shock hazard </u>- for <em>emergency
responders</em> or <em>firefighters? (NEC 2020).</em>
However, <span style="font-family:sans-serif">I've
observed thermal events in the panelboard with plans
and workmanship issues. </span></div>
<div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:sans-serif"> </span></div>
<div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:sans-serif">On
the other hand, falls are the #1 reason for
incidents in the construction industry. </span></div>
<div dir="auto"> </div>
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">All the best, <br>
<br>
Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council
(IREC) Certified Master Trainer \u2122 for Photovoltaics
(PV) Installation Professional #IREC 10037<br>
Contract Training Provider (CTP)<br>
Adjunct Professor, Energy<br>
<br>
California Solar & Electrical Contractor
License #00833782 C46, C10, D56, D31, C-7 - Since
2004<br>
Solar, Electrical, Trenching, Pole Installation
& Maintenance, Instrumentation<br>
<br>
Contract Solar (PV) Technical Inspector - 3rd Party
Inspections <br>
Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV
Installer #17, OSHA 30<br>
OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #32-0105338<br>
CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+)
#T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG<br>
<br>
* Professional Member, International Association of
Electrical Inspectors #7035507 - Since 2006<br>
* Accredited and Registered North American Board of
Certified Energy Practitioners (NABCEP) Continuing
Education (CE) Training Provider<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">On Thu, Apr 30,
2020, 8:29 AM <<a href="mailto:drake.chamberlin@redwoodalliance.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">drake.chamberlin@redwoodalliance.org</a>>
wrote:</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif">
<div id="gmail-m_3891093475508580951v1m_2290657155954236750m_4502811265567478132m_3712700432789776903m_-6733482047517057893m_-3407248358338594000m_5945935475487622897m_5292728194858110127m_-7102267540490521419signature"><br>
<div>I would like to see real data on the fire
risk of string inverters. Anecdotal problems are
not data.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The industry is definitely heading toward
MLPE due to the rapid shutdown requirements. In
many cases MLPE makes sense, in other cases it
doesn't. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Systems that are more cost effective and
reliable can often be built by using string
inverters.</div>
<div id="gmail-m_3891093475508580951v1m_2290657155954236750m_4502811265567478132m_3712700432789776903m_-6733482047517057893m_-3407248358338594000m_5945935475487622897m_5292728194858110127m_-7102267540490521419v1signature">---</div>
<br>
<div style="margin:0px;padding:0px;font-family:monospace"> </div>
</div>
<p><br>
</p>
<p id="gmail-m_3891093475508580951v1m_2290657155954236750m_4502811265567478132m_3712700432789776903m_-6733482047517057893m_-3407248358338594000m_5945935475487622897m_5292728194858110127m_-7102267540490521419reply-intro">On
2020-04-29 22:05, Jason Szumlanski wrote:</p>
<blockquote style="padding:0px 0.4em;border-left:2px solid rgb(16,16,255);margin:0px">
<div id="gmail-m_3891093475508580951v1m_2290657155954236750m_4502811265567478132m_3712700432789776903m_-6733482047517057893m_-3407248358338594000m_5945935475487622897m_5292728194858110127m_-7102267540490521419replybody1">
<div dir="auto">
<div><span style="font-family:verdana,geneva,sans-serif;font-size:13.3333px">"Rapid Shutdown does not
prevent fires."</span><br>
<br>
Not true. If the effect of RS is to steer
the market to MLPE, I believe it has a
significant impact on reducing fire risk. As
one who has watched a DC conductor fire
smolder out of control, I am sold on an AC
module or microinverter architecture. While
RS on a DC array doesn't necessarily reduce
fire risk within the array, it still has the
potential to reduce severity and spread.
Nothing is going to prevent all fires. I get
that. We're talking about risk mitigation
when it comes to RS. </div>
<div dir="auto"> </div>
<div dir="auto">As for "dependable string
inverters," the one dependable feature is
failure at least once in the module
lifetime, accompanied by a shocking repair
bill.</div>
<div dir="auto"> </div>
<div dir="auto">I'm not a shiny object
following kind of guy, but the writing is on
the wall. MLPE is the future. Modular,
serviceable, disposable if you will. Like it
or not, Edison is going to lose this battle
to Tesla (Tom vs Nikola). And I live less
than 5 minutes away from Tommy E's winter
home in Fort Myers, FL. And I "grew up" in
the industry living off-grid in DC power.
But AC distribution wins for safety at
various scales.</div>
<div dir="auto"> </div>
<div dir="auto"> </div>
<div dir="auto"> </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
<br>
<br>
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="ltr">On Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 9:42
PM <<a href="mailto:drake.chamberlin@redwoodalliance.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">drake.chamberlin@redwoodalliance.org</a>>
wrote:</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif">
<p>Rapid Shutdown does not prevent
fires; it was originally drafted to
allow firefighters to vent a roof
without being hindered by energized
PV arrays. This rule was expanded to
include other DC wiring from PV
sources.</p>
<p>As for PV safety, I'd like to see
some significant, statistical
evidence that shows there is a major
fire danger from PV relative to
other sources. A fire from a solar
array gets a lot more press than one
from a gas leak, bad wiring or an
ash tray emptied into a wastepaper
basket.</p>
<p>Large public buildings should have
all the protection that is
available. Does one size fit all?</p>
<p>Would it be reasonable to allow
residential installations under 12
kW, with 1/4 of the roof adjacent to
the array available for venting, to
be excepted from 690.12? What about
sparsely occupied commercial
buildings with ample roof area open
for ventilation? </p>
<p>Many of us have chosen to work with
renewable energy technology to
lessen the harms caused by fossil
fuel extraction and combustion. The
need for non-carbon based energy
sources has become extremely clear.</p>
<p>The old string inverters still chug
along year after year, with little
or no maintenance. Someone must pay
for the ongoing maintenance of
module level electronics. Dependable
string inverter systems should be
allowed unless statically
significant danger can be
demonstrated.</p>
<p>Drake</p>
<div id="gmail-m_3891093475508580951v1m_2290657155954236750m_4502811265567478132m_3712700432789776903m_-6733482047517057893m_-3407248358338594000m_5945935475487622897m_5292728194858110127m_-7102267540490521419v1m_8703790999668491827m_-4822667307395758786signature">---<br>
<div style="margin:0px;padding:0px;font-family:monospace"> </div>
</div>
<p><br>
</p>
<p id="gmail-m_3891093475508580951v1m_2290657155954236750m_4502811265567478132m_3712700432789776903m_-6733482047517057893m_-3407248358338594000m_5945935475487622897m_5292728194858110127m_-7102267540490521419v1m_8703790999668491827m_-4822667307395758786reply-intro">On
2020-04-29 16:01, Jason Szumlanski
wrote:</p>
<blockquote style="padding:0px 0.4em;border-left:2px solid rgb(16,16,255);margin:0px">
<div id="gmail-m_3891093475508580951v1m_2290657155954236750m_4502811265567478132m_3712700432789776903m_-6733482047517057893m_-3407248358338594000m_5945935475487622897m_5292728194858110127m_-7102267540490521419v1m_8703790999668491827m_-4822667307395758786replybody1">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">I
have been to several PV
fires for string inverter
systems, both commercial and
residential, and have seen
many DC systems at serious
risk of fires or in various
stages of melted insulation
and connectors. Most of
these systems have exhibited
good to excellent
workmanship. Things just
went wrong. Some
were traceable to
animal damage, wind, or
other unmitigated factors,
and some were unexplained. I
disagree that there isn't
justification for rapid
shutdown. </div>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </div>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">In
my opinion, what we need is
some additional innovation
and competition in the MLPE
space. Reliability is
clearly a key factor, but
there is no denying that
MLPE has added safety
benefits among other
benefits. And if you do
enough volume and set up
your business for efficiency
(standardization of product
offerings), MLPE isn't much
more expensive. It becomes a
negligible cost relative to
the benefit. The value
proposition is easy to
convey. There are limits to
this, but for the majority
of residential and small
commercial installations,
MLPE has become the de facto
standard around here. String
inverters are dinos, and
replacing 8-12 year old
transformer based inverters
is many times more annoying
than some MLPE swaps. I will
admit that the roofs around
here are pretty easy to
walk, so that is a factor
that might not apply to you.</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </div>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
<div>If you go under due to
manufacturer product
failures, you are not
writing your contracts
right or not charging
enough for service issues
beyond your control. I
believe that's a red
herring. You might suffer
some reputation damage,
but for someone that has
been installing MLPE for
over a decade, that is
totally manageable.
Consumers find a service
call to replace MLPE a LOT
more palatable than a
surprise inverter
replacement that could
cost thousands of dollars.
People just don't plan for
that.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Regarding rapid
shutdown devices, I have
also come across a few
that "someone" has
bypassed around here. I
don't know if they were
never installed properly
or disabled/bypassed due
to failure. It seemed
suspicious to me at the
time. I remember that it
made me wonder what good
is a rapid shutdown device
if it is easily defeated?
That's another argument
for MLPE. It has pretty
failsafe MLPE
functionality.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Jason Szumlanski</div>
<div>Florida Solar Design
Group</div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="text-align:center"> </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">On Wed, Apr 29,
2020 at 10:59 AM <<a href="mailto:drake.chamberlin@redwoodalliance.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">drake.chamberlin@redwoodalliance.org</a>>
wrote:</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif">
<p>Clearly, rapid shutdown
increases cost and
reduces reliability.
Given the excellent
safety record of PV,
prior to rapid shutdown
being required, it is
unnecessary. The few
anecdotal incidents of
PV fires were not enough
to justify the
requirement, especially
on smaller systems.</p>
<p>According to a friend
who worked for a local
installation company
that went under, a big
part of the reason for
their failure was the
chronic replacement of
microinverters and
optimizers.</p>
<p>What steps can be taken
to create some balance
in the rapid shutdown
requirements that are in
the NEC?</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div id="gmail-m_3891093475508580951v1m_2290657155954236750m_4502811265567478132m_3712700432789776903m_-6733482047517057893m_-3407248358338594000m_5945935475487622897m_5292728194858110127m_-7102267540490521419v1m_8703790999668491827m_-4822667307395758786v1gmail-m_1345399320785373203signature">---<br>
<div style="margin:0px;padding:0px;font-family:monospace"> </div>
</div>
<p><br>
</p>
<p id="gmail-m_3891093475508580951v1m_2290657155954236750m_4502811265567478132m_3712700432789776903m_-6733482047517057893m_-3407248358338594000m_5945935475487622897m_5292728194858110127m_-7102267540490521419v1m_8703790999668491827m_-4822667307395758786v1gmail-m_1345399320785373203reply-intro">On
2020-04-29 07:27, Sky
Sims wrote:</p>
<blockquote style="padding:0px 0.4em;border-left:2px solid rgb(16,16,255);margin:0px">
<div id="gmail-m_3891093475508580951v1m_2290657155954236750m_4502811265567478132m_3712700432789776903m_-6733482047517057893m_-3407248358338594000m_5945935475487622897m_5292728194858110127m_-7102267540490521419v1m_8703790999668491827m_-4822667307395758786v1gmail-m_1345399320785373203replybody1">
<div dir="auto">So far
rapid shutdown has
been a nightmare.
It's added a lot of
cost for no
measurable benefit.
<div>Using always
off devices like
midnight solar and
Tigo makes it
impossible to test
open circuit
voltages. Which
opens the door to
tons of problems
when commissioning
systems. </div>
<div>Also we've been
trying out
midnight Solar's
product and have
had an absurd
failure rate.
Which means lots
of truck rolls and
troubleshooting
and system
downtime. They
send replacement
product but they
aren't paying for
the lost weeks of
productivity.</div>
<div>We have Tigo
product in hand
and are deciding
which project to
try it on. But our
big concern about
using it is not
only the inability
to confirm open
circuit voltage of
the strings but
also the way
panels bypass if
the device doesn't
allow the panel to
connect properly.
Both of these
features are a
recipe for
problems and
potential
troubleshooting
nightmares. The
warranty from Tigo
doesn't cover our
expense if the
product fails. And
that's really what
our reservations
about the product
boil down to right
now. If we're on a
job with 50 units
and one fails, the
contractor or the
homeowner will be
the ones eating
the expense of
finding it and
replacing it.
There has to be a
better option. </div>
<div><br>
<div dir="ltr">Sky
Sims
<div><a href="Https://EcologicalSystems.biz" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Https://EcologicalSystems.biz</a></div>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<blockquote style="padding:0px 0.4em;border-left:2px solid rgb(16,16,255);margin:0px">On
Apr 28, 2020,
at 7:46 PM,
Corey
Shalanski <<a href="mailto:coresolar@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">coresolar@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote style="padding:0px 0.4em;border-left:2px solid rgb(16,16,255);margin:0px">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">Now
that 690.12 of
the <em>NEC</em> 2017
has been in
effect for
several years,
I am curious
how designers
and installers
are meeting
the associated
requirements
with string
inverter-based
systems (*not*
considering
microinverters
or DC
optimizers). I
am generally a
fan of the
KISS
principle, and
as best I can
determine the
<em>Tigo</em> TS4-F
device is one
of the
simplest
options
currently
available on
the market.
What are
others
finding?
<div> </div>
<div>I'd love
to hear about
favored
options for
complying with
rapid
shutdown. Any
success
stories? or
better yet,
any early
failures?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>--</div>
<div>Corey
Shalanski</div>
<div>Jah Light
Solar</div>
<div>Portland,
Jamaica</div>
</div>
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<pre>_______________________________________________
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<pre>_______________________________________________
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