<html>
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<p>Spending more time on the roof, while putting more equipment and
parts to meet MLPE, means more trips up the ladder, which
increases, not decreases the #1 worker safety danger: Falls.
Please correct me if I have somehow misunderstood this, but MLPE
is not making installers safer based on OSHA information
provided. Also after installation, which system is more likely
to require workers to return to work on the roof, pulling up
modules, trying to find problem equipment? More connections is
More safe? Really? I haven't had to climb back up on the roof on
any of my older, lower voltage off grid work in almost a decade.<br>
</p>
<p>Once again, MLPE has its place, (larger systems, multiple
subarrays, higher voltage) but we should have sensible exemptions
as have been mentioned already. We are endangering ourselves and
our employees needlessly, to comply with 690.12. <br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760</pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/6/20 8:41 PM,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:drake.chamberlin@redwoodalliance.org">drake.chamberlin@redwoodalliance.org</a> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:52a323f56e8f85faa40ffe6276873346@redwoodalliance.org">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<p>Interestingly enough, the data on the <a
href="https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/AccidentSearch.search?p_logger=1&acc_description=&acc_Abstract=solar&acc_keyword=&sic=&naics=&Office=All&officetype=All&endmonth=05&endday=05&endyear=2002&startmonth=05&startday=05&startyear=2021&InspNr="
moz-do-not-send="true">link</a> provided shows accidents from
gas explosions, falls, health problems and industrial injuries.
None of these incidents could have been prevented by module
level power electronics. This is typical of the data that I've
seen so far. </p>
<div id="signature">---<br>
<div class="pre" style="margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family:
monospace"> </div>
</div>
<p><br>
</p>
<p id="reply-intro">On 2020-05-06 17:22, Martin Herzfeld wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding: 0 0.4em; border-left:
#1010ff 2px solid; margin: 0">
<div id="replybody1">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">There could be an issue of encouraging
MLPE for worker safety?</div>
<div dir="auto"> </div>
<div dir="auto">1. This is data involving incidents with
workers in the OSHA Fatalities and Catastrophe
Investigation Summaries found here:</div>
<div dir="auto"><a
href="https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/AccidentSearch.search?p_logger=1&acc_description=&acc_Abstract=solar&acc_keyword=&sic=&naics=&Office=All&officetype=All&endmonth=05&endday=05&endyear=2002&startmonth=05&startday=05&startyear=2021&InspNr="
target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/AccidentSearch.search?p_logger=1&acc_description=&acc_Abstract=solar&acc_keyword=&sic=&naics=&Office=All&officetype=All&endmonth=05&endday=05&endyear=2002&startmonth=05&startday=05&startyear=2021&InspNr=</a></div>
<div dir="auto"> </div>
<div dir="auto">2. In the past I've observed an arc fault
at the module level with traditional string systems
without a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter NEC/CEC
690.11. The function in NEC/CEC 690.12 would be - to <u>reduce
the shock hazard </u>- for <em>emergency responders</em> or <em>firefighters?
(NEC 2020).</em> However, <span style="font-family:
sans-serif;">I've observed thermal events in the
panelboard with plans and workmanship issues. </span></div>
<div dir="auto"><span style="font-family: sans-serif;"> </span></div>
<div dir="auto"><span style="font-family: sans-serif;">On
the other hand, falls are the #1 reason for incidents
in the construction industry. </span></div>
<div dir="auto"> </div>
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">All the best, <br>
<br>
Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council
(IREC) Certified Master Trainer \u2122 for Photovoltaics
(PV) Installation Professional #IREC 10037<br>
Contract Training Provider (CTP)<br>
Adjunct Professor, Energy<br>
<br>
California Solar & Electrical Contractor License
#00833782 C46, C10, D56, D31, C-7 - Since 2004<br>
Solar, Electrical, Trenching, Pole Installation &
Maintenance, Instrumentation<br>
<br>
Contract Solar (PV) Technical Inspector - 3rd Party
Inspections <br>
Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Installer
#17, OSHA 30<br>
OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #32-0105338<br>
CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+)
#T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG<br>
<br>
* Professional Member, International Association of
Electrical Inspectors #7035507 - Since 2006<br>
* Accredited and Registered North American Board of
Certified Energy Practitioners (NABCEP) Continuing
Education (CE) Training Provider<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="v1gmail_quote">
<div class="v1gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Thu, Apr 30, 2020,
8:29 AM <<a
href="mailto:drake.chamberlin@redwoodalliance.org"
rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">drake.chamberlin@redwoodalliance.org</a>>
wrote:</div>
<blockquote class="v1gmail_quote" style="margin: 0 0 0
.8ex; border-left: 1px #ccc solid; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;">
<div
id="v1m_2290657155954236750m_4502811265567478132m_3712700432789776903m_-6733482047517057893m_-3407248358338594000m_5945935475487622897m_5292728194858110127m_-7102267540490521419signature"><br>
<div>I would like to see real data on the fire risk
of string inverters. Anecdotal problems are not
data.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The industry is definitely heading toward MLPE
due to the rapid shutdown requirements. In many
cases MLPE makes sense, in other cases it
doesn't. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Systems that are more cost effective and
reliable can often be built by using string
inverters.</div>
<div
id="v1m_2290657155954236750m_4502811265567478132m_3712700432789776903m_-6733482047517057893m_-3407248358338594000m_5945935475487622897m_5292728194858110127m_-7102267540490521419v1signature">---</div>
<br>
<div style="margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family:
monospace;"> </div>
</div>
<p><br>
</p>
<p
id="v1m_2290657155954236750m_4502811265567478132m_3712700432789776903m_-6733482047517057893m_-3407248358338594000m_5945935475487622897m_5292728194858110127m_-7102267540490521419reply-intro">On
2020-04-29 22:05, Jason Szumlanski wrote:</p>
<blockquote style="padding: 0 0.4em; border-left:
#1010ff 2px solid; margin: 0;">
<div
id="v1m_2290657155954236750m_4502811265567478132m_3712700432789776903m_-6733482047517057893m_-3407248358338594000m_5945935475487622897m_5292728194858110127m_-7102267540490521419replybody1">
<div dir="auto">
<div><span style="font-family:
verdana,geneva,sans-serif; font-size:
13.3333px;">"Rapid Shutdown does not prevent
fires."</span><br>
<br>
Not true. If the effect of RS is to steer the
market to MLPE, I believe it has a
significant impact on reducing fire risk. As
one who has watched a DC conductor fire
smolder out of control, I am sold on an AC
module or microinverter architecture. While RS
on a DC array doesn't necessarily reduce fire
risk within the array, it still has the
potential to reduce severity and spread.
Nothing is going to prevent all fires. I get
that. We're talking about risk mitigation when
it comes to RS. </div>
<div dir="auto"> </div>
<div dir="auto">As for "dependable string
inverters," the one dependable feature is
failure at least once in the module lifetime,
accompanied by a shocking repair bill.</div>
<div dir="auto"> </div>
<div dir="auto">I'm not a shiny object following
kind of guy, but the writing is on the wall.
MLPE is the future. Modular, serviceable,
disposable if you will. Like it or not, Edison
is going to lose this battle to Tesla (Tom vs
Nikola). And I live less than 5 minutes away
from Tommy E's winter home in Fort Myers, FL.
And I "grew up" in the industry living
off-grid in DC power. But AC distribution wins
for safety at various scales.</div>
<div dir="auto"> </div>
<div dir="auto"> </div>
<div dir="auto"> </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
<br>
<br>
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="ltr">On Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 9:42 PM
<<a
href="mailto:drake.chamberlin@redwoodalliance.org"
rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">drake.chamberlin@redwoodalliance.org</a>>
wrote:</div>
<blockquote style="margin: 0 0 0 .8ex;
border-left: 1px #ccc solid; padding-left:
1ex;">
<div style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;">
<p>Rapid Shutdown does not prevent
fires; it was originally drafted to
allow firefighters to vent a roof
without being hindered by energized PV
arrays. This rule was expanded to
include other DC wiring from PV
sources.</p>
<p>As for PV safety, I'd like to see
some significant, statistical evidence
that shows there is a major fire
danger from PV relative to other
sources. A fire from a solar array
gets a lot more press than one from a
gas leak, bad wiring or an ash tray
emptied into a wastepaper basket.</p>
<p>Large public buildings should have
all the protection that is available.
Does one size fit all?</p>
<p>Would it be reasonable to allow
residential installations under 12 kW,
with 1/4 of the roof adjacent to the
array available for venting, to be
excepted from 690.12? What about
sparsely occupied commercial buildings
with ample roof area open for
ventilation? </p>
<p>Many of us have chosen to work with
renewable energy technology to lessen
the harms caused by fossil fuel
extraction and combustion. The need
for non-carbon based energy sources
has become extremely clear.</p>
<p>The old string inverters still chug
along year after year, with little or
no maintenance. Someone must pay for
the ongoing maintenance of module
level electronics. Dependable string
inverter systems should be allowed
unless statically significant danger
can be demonstrated.</p>
<p>Drake</p>
<div
id="v1m_2290657155954236750m_4502811265567478132m_3712700432789776903m_-6733482047517057893m_-3407248358338594000m_5945935475487622897m_5292728194858110127m_-7102267540490521419v1m_8703790999668491827m_-4822667307395758786signature">---<br>
<div style="margin: 0; padding: 0;
font-family: monospace;"> </div>
</div>
<p><br>
</p>
<p
id="v1m_2290657155954236750m_4502811265567478132m_3712700432789776903m_-6733482047517057893m_-3407248358338594000m_5945935475487622897m_5292728194858110127m_-7102267540490521419v1m_8703790999668491827m_-4822667307395758786reply-intro">On
2020-04-29 16:01, Jason Szumlanski
wrote:</p>
<blockquote style="padding: 0 0.4em;
border-left: #1010ff 2px solid;
margin: 0;">
<div
id="v1m_2290657155954236750m_4502811265567478132m_3712700432789776903m_-6733482047517057893m_-3407248358338594000m_5945935475487622897m_5292728194858110127m_-7102267540490521419v1m_8703790999668491827m_-4822667307395758786replybody1">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family:
arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">I
have been to several PV fires
for string inverter systems,
both commercial and
residential, and have seen
many DC systems at serious
risk of fires or in various
stages of melted insulation
and connectors. Most of these
systems have exhibited good to
excellent workmanship. Things
just went wrong. Some
were traceable to
animal damage, wind, or other
unmitigated factors, and some
were unexplained. I disagree
that there isn't
justification for rapid
shutdown. </div>
<div style="font-family:
arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family:
arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">In
my opinion, what we need is
some additional innovation and
competition in the MLPE space.
Reliability is clearly a key
factor, but there is no
denying that MLPE has added
safety benefits among other
benefits. And if you do enough
volume and set up your
business for efficiency
(standardization of product
offerings), MLPE isn't much
more expensive. It becomes a
negligible cost relative to
the benefit. The value
proposition is easy to convey.
There are limits to this, but
for the majority of
residential and small
commercial installations, MLPE
has become the de facto
standard around here. String
inverters are dinos, and
replacing 8-12 year old
transformer based inverters is
many times more annoying than
some MLPE swaps. I will admit
that the roofs around here are
pretty easy to walk, so that
is a factor that might not
apply to you.</div>
<div style="font-family:
arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family:
arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">
<div>If you go under due to
manufacturer product
failures, you are not
writing your contracts right
or not charging enough for
service issues beyond your
control. I believe that's a
red herring. You might
suffer some reputation
damage, but for someone that
has been installing MLPE for
over a decade, that is
totally manageable.
Consumers find a service
call to replace MLPE a LOT
more palatable than a
surprise inverter
replacement that could cost
thousands of dollars. People
just don't plan for that.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Regarding rapid shutdown
devices, I have also come
across a few that "someone"
has bypassed around here. I
don't know if they were
never installed properly or
disabled/bypassed due to
failure. It seemed
suspicious to me at the
time. I remember that it
made me wonder what good is
a rapid shutdown device if
it is easily defeated?
That's another argument for
MLPE. It has pretty failsafe
MLPE functionality.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Jason Szumlanski</div>
<div>Florida Solar Design
Group</div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div
style="text-align:
center;"> </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">On Wed, Apr 29,
2020 at 10:59 AM <<a
href="mailto:drake.chamberlin@redwoodalliance.org"
rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">drake.chamberlin@redwoodalliance.org</a>>
wrote:</div>
<blockquote style="margin: 0px
0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left:
1px solid #cccccc;
padding-left: 1ex;">
<div style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family:
Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;">
<p>Clearly, rapid shutdown
increases cost and reduces
reliability. Given the
excellent safety record of
PV, prior to rapid
shutdown being required,
it is unnecessary. The few
anecdotal incidents of PV
fires were not enough to
justify the requirement,
especially on smaller
systems.</p>
<p>According to a friend who
worked for a local
installation company that
went under, a big part of
the reason for their
failure was the chronic
replacement of
microinverters and
optimizers.</p>
<p>What steps can be taken
to create some balance in
the rapid shutdown
requirements that are in
the NEC?</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div
id="v1m_2290657155954236750m_4502811265567478132m_3712700432789776903m_-6733482047517057893m_-3407248358338594000m_5945935475487622897m_5292728194858110127m_-7102267540490521419v1m_8703790999668491827m_-4822667307395758786v1gmail-m_1345399320785373203signature">---<br>
<div style="margin: 0px;
padding: 0px;
font-family: monospace;"> </div>
</div>
<p><br>
</p>
<p
id="v1m_2290657155954236750m_4502811265567478132m_3712700432789776903m_-6733482047517057893m_-3407248358338594000m_5945935475487622897m_5292728194858110127m_-7102267540490521419v1m_8703790999668491827m_-4822667307395758786v1gmail-m_1345399320785373203reply-intro">On
2020-04-29 07:27, Sky Sims
wrote:</p>
<blockquote style="padding:
0px 0.4em; border-left:
2px solid #1010ff; margin:
0px;">
<div
id="v1m_2290657155954236750m_4502811265567478132m_3712700432789776903m_-6733482047517057893m_-3407248358338594000m_5945935475487622897m_5292728194858110127m_-7102267540490521419v1m_8703790999668491827m_-4822667307395758786v1gmail-m_1345399320785373203replybody1">
<div dir="auto">So far
rapid shutdown has
been a nightmare. It's
added a lot of cost
for no measurable
benefit.
<div>Using always off
devices like
midnight solar and
Tigo makes it
impossible to test
open circuit
voltages. Which
opens the door to
tons of problems
when commissioning
systems. </div>
<div>Also we've been
trying out midnight
Solar's product and
have had an absurd
failure rate. Which
means lots of truck
rolls and
troubleshooting and
system downtime.
They send
replacement product
but they aren't
paying for the lost
weeks of
productivity.</div>
<div>We have Tigo
product in hand and
are deciding which
project to try it
on. But our big
concern about using
it is not only the
inability to confirm
open circuit voltage
of the strings but
also the way panels
bypass if the device
doesn't allow the
panel to connect
properly. Both of
these features are a
recipe for problems
and potential
troubleshooting
nightmares. The
warranty from Tigo
doesn't cover our
expense if the
product fails. And
that's really what
our reservations
about the product
boil down to right
now. If we're on a
job with 50 units
and one fails, the
contractor or the
homeowner will be
the ones eating the
expense of finding
it and replacing it.
There has to be a
better option. </div>
<div><br>
<div dir="ltr">Sky
Sims
<div><a
href="Https://EcologicalSystems.biz"
target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">Https://EcologicalSystems.biz</a></div>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<blockquote
style="padding:
0px 0.4em;
border-left: 2px
solid #1010ff;
margin: 0px;">On
Apr 28, 2020, at
7:46 PM, Corey
Shalanski <<a
href="mailto:coresolar@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">coresolar@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote
style="padding:
0px 0.4em;
border-left: 2px
solid #1010ff;
margin: 0px;">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">Now
that 690.12 of
the <em>NEC</em> 2017
has been in
effect for
several years,
I am curious
how designers
and installers
are meeting
the associated
requirements
with string
inverter-based
systems (*not*
considering
microinverters
or DC
optimizers). I
am generally a
fan of the
KISS
principle, and
as best I can
determine the
<em>Tigo</em> TS4-F
device is one
of the
simplest
options
currently
available on
the market.
What are
others
finding?
<div> </div>
<div>I'd love
to hear about
favored
options for
complying with
rapid
shutdown. Any
success
stories? or
better yet,
any early
failures?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>--</div>
<div>Corey
Shalanski</div>
<div>Jah Light
Solar</div>
<div>Portland,
Jamaica</div>
</div>
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<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
List Address: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
Change listserver email address & settings:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a>
List-Archive: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html">http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html</a>
List rules & etiquette:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a>
Check out or update participant bios:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a>
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