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<p>Folks,</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>I do not want to be obdurate here, perhaps just a slow learner.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>I have to ask the question though:</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>In the case of a BB inverter connected to the grid only, with no
GT inverters, you don't have to shutdown the whole inverter when
the battery is full because you are not required to endlessly push
available energy into the batteries. You can turn off the switch
that connects the charger to the battery.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Mark<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/3/2019 11:13 AM, Kienan Maxfield
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:BYAPR02MB427836A11ED978C7E71ACFB6BB7C0@BYAPR02MB4278.namprd02.prod.outlook.com">
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Mark,</div>
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<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Sorry, my post must not have been perfectly clear... I have
total confidence in how the BB inverters work, and no, the GT
inverter there will be no measurable deduction in impedance,
even if you have a very sensitive sensor and there are no other
loads on the system. It just doesn't work that way. It is
impossible for the inverter to reduce the current into the
batteries when it's being fed into the inverter through its
output. And that's true no matter what inverter we're talking
about. It is impossible for it to increase it's impedance that
way.</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
The only thing I would say is that if you were an engineer at an
inverter manufacturer, it would be possible for you to design an
inverter that could change it's output voltage based on the
battery voltage, but nobody does that. That's why they change
the output frequency. I think my last email layed out the 4
possible options, and I am confident that there is no other
option that would work at all.</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
These were my four options...</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<ol>
<li><span style="background: var(--white);">Use a BB inverter
that has frequency shifting control for AC coupling</span></li>
<li><span style="background: var(--white);">Run a wire from
the battery room to the GT inverters that you can use for
controlling them based on the battery voltage</span></li>
<li><span style="background: var(--white);">Experiment with
something custom and just expect a high probability of
eventual failure (but let us know how it goes)</span></li>
<ol style="list-style: lower-alpha;">
<li><span style="background: var(--white);">You might be
able to find a device that would read the battery
voltage, and then transmit that information wirelessly,
then have another device at the GT inverters that
decodes that information and then drives a relay
accordingly. (I have no idea how to do this, for me,
this is in the hypothetical realm.) Or maybe it could
transmit the info via PLC?</span></li>
</ol>
<li><span style="background: var(--white);">Or the fourth
option is to set the BB inverter's high battery cut out
voltage to just above the absorb voltage and just plan on
the power going out multiple times per sunny day. I
wouldn't go for this one unless it's your own home and
you're feeling very adventuresome.</span><br>
</li>
</ol>
<span></span><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Sorry for the bad news, but unless you have frequency shifting,
it's totally impossible to control the GT inverter using the AC
line.</div>
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font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;
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Kienan</div>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt"
face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b>
RE-wrenches <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"><re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org></a>
on behalf of Mark Frye <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:markf@berkeleysolar.com"><markf@berkeleysolar.com></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, November 3, 2019 11:58 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"><re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple
Disconnect</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div style="background-color:#FFFFFF">
<p>OK, the posts are coming in on the "no" side, but with
uncertainty about how any given BB inverter might work.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>I still think that the BB charger is in charge (no pun) of
sending power to the battery and if it the battery is at it's
set point then the duty cycle on the transistors in the
rectifier go down - zero. At that point the impedance of the
AC line would appear to go up. In response the GT inverters
would increase there output voltage in an attempt to over come
the higher impedance.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>The voltage monitoring switch that I spec'd has a response
delay setting. If I am running in offgrid mode, the main worry
is voltage sag due to load. So generally, the inverter would
be running at or below AC voltage set point. There may be
spikes above voltage set point when a load is disconnected,
but I could filter that out with the delay on the sensor.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Still, this is why I am asking.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Anyone on the list have more confidence in their understand
of BB inverters in off-grid mode with AC coupled GT inverters?<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Mark<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="x_moz-cite-prefix">On 11/3/2019 10:44 AM, Kienan
Maxfield wrote:<br>
</div>
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Mark,</div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;
font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;
font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
I think that you're not understanding what Brian is saying.
In any case, your proposal will not work with most
equipment. There may be some equipment that would work that
way, but not anything I'm aware of. Let me tell you what
will happen in a normal system, assuming that the
manufacturer hasn't built in an AC coupling control
mechanism (like frequency shifting)</div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;
font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);
font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;
font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);
font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt">The
BB inverter will maintain a stable AC voltage by allowing
the GT inverters to back feed into the batteries. If the
batteries start overcharging, the BB inverter will not
raise the AC voltage in response. What will happen instead
is that there will be no measurable difference in the AC
voltage, but the DC voltage will continue to rise until it
hits the multimode BB inverter's high battery cut out
voltage, and the BB inverter will shut off, and your
entire AC line will drop to 0 volts. This will turn off
the GT inverter, and as the battery voltage falls back
into an acceptable range, the BB inverter may or may not
automatically turn back on. If it does automatically turn
back on, then the GT inverter will wait for 5 minutes and
then they'll start back-feeding until the battery voltage
goes above the overvoltage setpoint, and the whole system
shuts off again. So this is what is normally happening if
you hear about an AC coupling system that shuts off once
every 6 minutes or so during the day... And yes, I have
seen a system where the homeowner was told that this was
normal, and it's just how the system was supposed to
work..</span></div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;
font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);
font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;
font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);
font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt">So
if the inverter has an AC Coupling control mechanism, and
that AC coupling mode is turned on, then it will change
the characteristics of the AC line in order to notify the
GT inverter to turn off, or to decrease its output. The
only way that I've ever heard about any manufacturers
implementing this is through frequency shifting. Now it
would be perfectly possible to do it through voltage
shifting (or voltage raising) and I've talked to some
engineers who said that on a technological level, it
wouldn't be any harder for a manufacturer to do voltage
shifting than frequency shifting, but no manufacturer has
actually pursued that. So basically, your only options
are </span></div>
<div>
<ol>
<li style="color:rgb(0,0,0);
font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;
font-size:12pt">
use a BB inverter that has frequency shifting control
for AC coupling</li>
<li style="color:rgb(0,0,0);
font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;
font-size:12pt">
run a wire from the battery room to the GT inverters
that you can use for controlling them based on the
battery voltage</li>
<li style="color:rgb(0,0,0);
font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;
font-size:12pt">
experiment with something custom and just expect a high
probability of eventual failure (but let us know how it
goes)</li>
<ol style="color:rgb(0,0,0);
font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;
font-size:12pt; list-style:lower-alpha">
<li>You might be able to find a device that would read
the battery voltage, and then transmit that
information wirelessly, then have another device at
the GT inverters that decodes that information and
then drives a relay accordingly. (I have no idea how
to do this, for me, this is in the hypothetical
realm.) Or maybe it could transmit the info via PLC?</li>
</ol>
<li><font face="Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif"
color="#000000"><span style="">or the fourth option is
to set the BB inverter's high battery cut out
voltage to just above the absorb voltage and just
plan on the power going out multiple times per sunny
day. I wouldn't go for this one unless it's your own
home and you're feeling very adventuresome.</span></font></li>
</ol>
<div><font face="Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif"
color="#000000"><span style="">Essentially the bottom
line is that monitoring the AC line will never work
unless the BB inverter has a built-in</span></font><span
style=""> AC coupling control mechanism, then you'll be
monitoring for the frequency rather than the voltage.</span></div>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;
font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;
font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
Sorry for not having anything more helpful to say.</div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;
font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
Kienan</div>
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<div id="x_divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font
style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif"
color="#000000"><b>From:</b> RE-wrenches
<a class="x_moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org></a> on
behalf of Mark Frye <a class="x_moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:markf@berkeleysolar.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<markf@berkeleysolar.com></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, November 3, 2019 11:00 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="x_moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a> <a
class="x_moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"
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<re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple
Disconnect</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div class="x_BodyFragment"><font size="2"><span
style="font-size:11pt">
<div class="x_PlainText">OK Brian,<br>
<br>
So I think you are confirming that monitoring AC side
voltage is an <br>
acceptable way of deciding when to disconnect the GT
inverters.<br>
<br>
With my parts list, I have a delay time that would
hold the GT inverters <br>
off-line for some period of time (I would probably set
to 1 hour) before <br>
coming back on line after tipping off.<br>
<br>
<br>
Mark<br>
<br>
On 11/3/2019 9:53 AM, Brian Mehalic wrote:<br>
> With frequency-on/off, frequency power control,
or other \u201cinverter integrated\u201d control based on
battery voltage/state of charge there is also control
in regards to when the ac coupled inverters come back
on. And yes, this is definitely needed to prevent
overcharge (or get three-stage charging from the AC
coupled system). Of course if it doesn\u2019t work, yes the
bus voltage will rise and trip the BB offline.<br>
><br>
> AC bus voltage will go down as soon as the ac
couple inverters are kicked off, so if that\u2019s your
measured value unless your control system has a delay
or other component to control reconnection and
charging i think it could essentially chatter off and
on and off and...<br>
><br>
> Brian<br>
><br>
>> On Nov 3, 2019, at 9:38 AM, Mark Frye <a
class="x_moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:markf@berkeleysolar.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<markf@berkeleysolar.com></a> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> \ufeffHi William,<br>
>><br>
>> Thanks, you bring up issues that are
important to me here.<br>
>><br>
>> In particular, my situation is that the GT
inverter is inter-tied a couple sub panels upstream of
where I want to put the BB inverter. The distance is
long, so I am looking for a solution where I don't
have to run a cable between the two.<br>
>><br>
>> In general, I do wonder about using AC line
voltage rise to take the Gt inverters off line. The
main goal is to prevent excess voltage at the battery,
so monitoring battery voltage is most direct, and
there are simple solutions for that.<br>
>><br>
>> Is AC line voltage a suitable metric for
achieving the same goal?<br>
>><br>
>> Here is where I could use Wrench knowledge to
confirm my thinking, that being:<br>
>><br>
>> - With excess energy in the system, the
charger moves it into the battery, raising it's
voltage until it reaches it high charging voltage set
point<br>
>><br>
>> - Once the battery reaches it's high voltage
set point, the charger stops putting energy into the
battery<br>
>><br>
>> - With no other place to put the excess
energy, the AC voltage rises<br>
>><br>
>> Am I getting this right, the reason to
disconnect AC coupled inverters when the battery if
full is not to prevent the batteries from being
overcharged, but rather to prevent the AC line from
becoming unstable?<br>
>><br>
>> I am hoping this is correct and that with
$200 of industrial grade devices from Digikey I can
implement a robust control that will disconnect the GT
inverters before the AC line goes so high that the BB
inverter faults.<br>
>><br>
>> Mark<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
List Address: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
Change listserver email address & settings:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a>
List-Archive: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html">http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html</a>
List rules & etiquette:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a>
Check out or update participant bios:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a>
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