<p>The downside of the SMA SPS is there is very little headroom to surge and start a well pump or a fire pump. There is also the major problem of sundown. <img title="Wink" src="cid:smiley-wink.gif@sti.net" alt="Wink" border="0" /></p>
<pre><strong><span>Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
<a href="http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/" target="_blank">http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/</a>
e-mail <a href="mailto:offgridsolar@sti.net">offgridsolar@sti.net</a>
text 209 813 0060</span></strong></pre>
<p>On Fri, 20 Sep 2019 11:07:12 -0400, Dave Tedeyan <dtedeyan@taitem.com> wrote:</p>
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<div dir="ltr">Hi Mike,
<div>For rapid shutdown, we are on NEC2014 in NY. So module level is not necessary.</div>
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<div>And the SPS is a huge reason for the SB inverters on this one. And in this case, it is almost exactly what the homeowner is looking for. But with the two inverters, can those SPS be wired into a panel rather than just into an outlet? So far, this customers house has not even been built yet. The barn is up, which is where the solar is going. So I am not 100% sure about loads, but there will likely be heat pumps.</div>
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<div>So if the SPS's can put power the same panel, then that might be just what I am looking for in this particular case.</div>
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<div>Although I am still curious if others have retrofitted other systems with something like I was initially talking about for an inverter that does not have a SPS. I think that at least in this market a low end 3rd party solution could gain a lot of traction.<br clear="all" />
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<div><strong><span style="font-family: tahoma, sans-serif;">Dave Tedeyan, PE</span></strong></div>
<div><span style="font-family: tahoma, sans-serif;">Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family: tahoma, sans-serif;"><img src="cid:ca42487f9d0c6253197cd72bc6b4eaa9@sti.net" alt="" /><br /></span></div>
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<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 10:58 AM Harry Mahon <<a href="mailto:Michael.Mahon@sma-america.com">Michael.Mahon@sma-america.com</a>> wrote:</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Dave – how is Rapid Shutdown being complied with? And what load requires 240V – or is that needed to "fool" the PV inverters?<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">With two SB-40s, you have the ability to wire for the homeowner two Secure Power Supply circuits – and get up to 2000W (at 120VAC) from each when sun is up and grid is down, no batteries or extra inverter needed. <span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">This is exactly the "simple industry solution" you mention, and it has been available in US from Sunny Boys only since 2013.<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Best regards -<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Mike<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif;">SMA America<br /> Michael Mahon</span><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif;"><br /> Technical Trainer, Solar Academy<br /> 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><strong>From:</strong> RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>> <strong>On Behalf Of </strong>Dave Tedeyan<br /> <strong>Sent:</strong> Friday, September 20, 2019 7:41 AM<br /> <strong>To:</strong> RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>><br /> <strong>Subject:</strong> [RE-wrenches] Running a grid tied system when the grid is down<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hi all, <span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I get asked this question frequently, as I am sure many others do, and of course the first answer is "it cannot be done". But can it? I have a customer who is very keen on trying to make this happen. After a few lengthy conversations, he still wants to try it, even after understanding the limitations (i.e. a cloud passes by and now you cannot power loads...)<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I have some thoughts on how to make this work, and thought I would post it here to get others comments who I am sure have more experience in something like this than I do. <span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">-PV system would have to be backfed, so that they can turn off the main breaker to disconnect from the utility entirely (and then have to look at the neighbors, or guess when the grid comes back)<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">-Have a fairly small 12V off grid inverter/charger than can be powered by a single 12v battery. This inverter would have to be manually turned off until after the grid is down and the main breaker is disconnected.<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">-Would also need an auto transformer to bump up the voltage to 240V. Something like the Outback PSX240.<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">-Once the main breaker is off and the off grid inverter is on, would it be able to wake up the grid tied inverters? On this project, there are two SMA SB-40 inverters.<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">-There would need to be some kind of dump/diversion load to deal with excess power coming from the GT inverters. I have not used these in the past, but are the controllers smart enough to just deal with any excess power in the system?<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">-Have a trickle charger on the battery to keep it topped off most of the time.<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">-Another thought would be to DC couple. This would involve having a DC switch in one of the strings going to the GT inverter, such that when the house is islanded from the grid, they can flip the switch and have that one string go to a high voltage CC. Then they could just run some small loads off the power from that one string, or maybe we could allow it to try to wake up the GT inverters as well.<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">This particular homeowner specifically does not want much in the way of batteries and has a smaller budget than will allow something sensible like a Sunny Island.<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">At least in upstate NY, there are many people who would like to be able to take advantage of their solar when the sun is shining, but who just do not have the budget for a legit battery system. I am somewhat surprised that there is no simple industry solution for this yet, although maybe it is more complicated than I am making it out to be. And of course, you need a very hands on homeowner who very well understands the limitations of this kind of setup.<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I would certainly appreciate any feedback or comments on this, and also would like to hear if anyone has tried this kind of setup before.<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks much!<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">-Dave<br clear="all" /> <span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-family: Tahoma,sans-serif;">Dave Tedeyan, PE</span></strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Tahoma,sans-serif;">Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC</span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Tahoma,sans-serif;">110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850</span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Tahoma,sans-serif;">o. <span style="text-decoration: underline;">607.277.1118 x121</span> f. 607.277.2119</span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></p>
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<pre><strong><span style="font-size: small;">Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
<a href="http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/" target="_blank">http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/</a>
e-mail <a href="mailto:offgridsolar@sti.net">offgridsolar@sti.net</a>
text 209 813 0060</span></strong></pre>
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