<div dir="ltr">Hi Bryan and Jason - <div><br></div><div>Thanks for the info on the module warranty lead and connector issue. I was still under the impression that cutting module leads <i>could</i> lead to voiding the manufacturer's warranty so we've avoided it.</div><div><br></div><div>All that said, we haven't bumped into a clear cut case (at least for a long time) where a manufacturer-supplied connector was clearly faulty. I can't speak to other's experiences and certainly don't know what's up with Tesla's situation. Jason's comments about using proper techniques and tools to field assemble connectors are solid. It seems like a total slam dunk to make connectors up, but the bottom line is that installers can make mistakes (sometimes incomprehensible) when assembling connectors. These poorly assembled connectors can connect just well enough to run the system and test out okay, but then arc intermittently until complete connection failure occurs. I've seen this occur with arc fault detection enabled in the inverter which makes me question how effective arc fault detection really is. </div><div><br></div><div>We work hard to keep training and QC up to assure that our connectors are made up properly. We're using way fewer MC4 connectors these days because we've primarily switched to AC modules for our residential installations. For commercial installations, we do a refresher training prior to starting the rooftop wiring.</div><div><br></div><div>August</div><div>Luminalt<br><div><br></div><div><br></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 7:26 AM Jason Fisher (STC) <<a href="mailto:stc.jason@gmail.com" target="_blank">stc.jason@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>
<div style="direction:ltr">
<div>
<div></div>
</div>
<div style="direction:ltr">Hi August and all,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="direction:ltr">In addition to modules with UL6703 mating connectors, UL1703 has always allowed modules to be listed with only leads (no connectors attached), or with no leads at all (old school J-box). Originally leads with connectors were added
to modules in the field, connected to J-boxes with bolted terminals. Factory installed leads and connectors were added by module manufacturers for convenience, not because of any Code or UL requirement. There is no defensible reason for a module manufacturer
to void their warranty if a connector is cut off and replaced by an appropriate connector or splice. The word appropriate is key here since there are some modules that use proprietary connectors and even cables (ie Ac modules). </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="direction:ltr">This issue is particularly important for any connector that has any damage. How could a module manufacturer suggest that a qualified person not be allowed to replace a damaged part like this? Would they replace the entire module
for you? Assuming not, would they say the module should be tossed just because of this? There is no logic in the belief that replacing a connector should violate any warranty or listing, provided the person performing the work is qualified and they are using
appropriate (typ. listed) parts. In fact I believe this should be part of a module\u2019s normal maintenance procedures that should be documented in the module\u2019s manual. If it was, that would remove any concerns over impacting the UL listing. Without this procedure
being documented in the module manual, you need to get approval from the manufacturer, which some have provided in my experience. I believe if more folks kept asking this would become easier. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="direction:ltr">All that said please buy good quality connectors and train your people to install them correctly, with the right (and calibrated) tools. You need good quality controls when making any electrical connection but our mating (\u201cplug
and play\u201d) PV connectors are particularly important since they operate under such demanding conditions of duty cycle and environmental conditions. Also never mix manufacturers or types unless this combination is called out in the NRTL listing (\u201cintermatability\u201d).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="direction:ltr">Cheers,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="direction:ltr">Jason Fisher</div>
<div class="gmail-m_-134262466777248668gmail-m_7976806930132259619ms-outlook-ios-signature"></div>
</div>
<div> </div>
<hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%">
<div id="gmail-m_-134262466777248668gmail-m_7976806930132259619divRplyFwdMsg" dir="dir="ltr""><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>> on behalf of Bryan Norkunas <<a href="mailto:bryan@pv-cables.com" target="_blank">bryan@pv-cables.com</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, September 9, 2019 11:46 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'RE-wrenches'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch
<div> </div>
</font></div>
<div class="gmail-m_-134262466777248668gmail-m_7976806930132259619WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">August,
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">We have had numerous customers successfully reach out and been given revised warranties from module manufactures, when connectors which were on the module leads could not
be procured.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Cheers,
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Californian FB",serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Bryan Norkunas</span></b><b><span style="font-family:"Californian FB",serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Californian FB",serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><a href="mailto:bryan@pv-cables.com" target="_blank">bryan@pv-cables.com</a></span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:16pt;font-family:"Californian FB",serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">PV-Cables Inc.</span></b></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Californian FB",serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Californian FB",serif;color:navy"> </span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Californian FB",serif;color:rgb(0,73,126)"><img border="0" width="25" height="23" id="gmail-m_-134262466777248668gmail-m_7976806930132259619Picture_x0020_2" alt="Description: Description: cid:image002.jpg@01CD22E8.974B6470" src="cid:16d1bbe915f5b006a2"> </span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Californian FB",serif;color:navy">Please
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Californian FB",serif;color:navy"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Californian FB",serif;color:black">NOTE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information.
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> RE-wrenches [mailto:<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>August Goers<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, September 09, 2019 6:34 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Jason - I'm curious about your statement on cutting off module connectors. Can you elaborate?</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Best,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">August</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt">Luminalt</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 7:52 AM Jason Fisher (STC) <<a href="mailto:stc.jason@gmail.com" target="_blank">stc.jason@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Kent, I don\u2019t see an answer to Brian\u2019s question about the LG module\u2019s original connector configuration. We\u2019re these modules actually factory shipped with one H4 and one MC4 connector on different polarities? That would be bizarre. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Otherwise to back up Brian\u2019s point about Intermatability, this is a UL 6703 term that was added in NEC2020 to specifically address this question, how can installers have confidence when they are asked to connect two different manufacturer\u2019s
mating connectors. Bottom line is don\u2019t connect \u201cmismatched\u201d connectors, ever. Only connect different manufacturers, and/or different models of mating connectors if at least one of the companies produces proof of evaluation of that combination by an NRTL.
Warning that this is rare at this point (those wouldn\u2019t therefore be \u201cmismatched\u201d). </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">This is a very important issue so my advice to Wrenches is to keep firm and don\u2019t budge on this one. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Also curious if you all still think you can\u2019t cut off module connectors? We need to correct that if so. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Jason Fisher</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center">
<hr size="2" width="98%" align="center">
</div>
<div id="gmail-m_-134262466777248668gmail-m_7976806930132259619gmail-m_7138129606260105297divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black"> RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
on behalf of Jerry Shafer <<a href="mailto:jerrysgarage01@gmail.com" target="_blank">jerrysgarage01@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, September 5, 2019 11:25 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Brian </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Missing the point, yes they are compatible but as we have seen in the real world there are issues. This can give module and micro inverter manufacturers an out regarding failures and responsibility </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Jerry</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Sep 5, 2019, 1:41 AM Brian Mehalic <<a href="mailto:brian@solarenergy.org" target="_blank">brian@solarenergy.org</a>> wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt">I don\u2019t think \u201csome white paper\u201d is sufficient based on Code requirements, UL standards (6703), and verified field failures. Also see 2020 NEC® 690.33(C) - now requiring intermatability. </p>
<div id="gmail-m_-134262466777248668gmail-m_7976806930132259619gmail-m_7138129606260105297m_-318506501290202540m_1919283445577569262m_-4519548902895815155AppleMailSignature">
<p class="MsoNormal">Brian</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><br>
On Sep 4, 2019, at 2:06 PM, Jerry Shafer <<a href="mailto:jerrysgarage01@gmail.com" target="_blank">jerrysgarage01@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Wrenches </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Per some white papers connectors are interchangeable, this being said l have had arc issues as a result. FYI there are knock-offs out there to.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Jerry</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Sep 4, 2019, 1:42 PM Brian Mehalic <<a href="mailto:brian@solarenergy.org" target="_blank">brian@solarenergy.org</a>> wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Are you saying each module has, for example, a positive factory H4 lead and a negative factory MC4 lead?
</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I definitely know of H4 problems, both mated with H4s and mismatched. <br clear="all">
</p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Brian Mehalic <br>
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional\u2122 R031508-59</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">(520) 204-6639</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Solar Energy International<br>
<a href="http://www.solarenergy.org" target="_blank">http://www.solarenergy.org</a></p>
</div>
</div>
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</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">SEI Professional Services</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://www.seisolarpros.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:9.5pt">http://www.s</span>eisolarpros.com</a></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 1:22 PM Kent Osterberg <<a href="mailto:kent@coveoregon.com" target="_blank">kent@coveoregon.com</a>> wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt">I've recently been looking for the cause of random power drop offs to
<br>
zero in an Enphase M215 system with LG260 PV module that was installed <br>
in 2013. Just one inverter in a system of fourteen has been doing this. <br>
Enphase suggested moving the inverter to a different PV module and sure <br>
enough doing that proved the problem wasn't with the inverter. <br>
Intermittent zero output was being caused by the PV module. In making <br>
the inverter/module change I found that all the LG 260 modules in this <br>
system have one MC4 connector and one H4 connector. At present I'm <br>
convinced the mismatched connector is the actual cause of the problem. <br>
Anyone else ever notice find PV modules with mixed MC4 and H4 connectors?<br>
<br>
Kent Osterberg<br>
Blue Mountain Solar<br>
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