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<p>Folks,</p>
<p>Thread points up the ever present weakness of the Code to deal
with PV. In terms of specifying OCP, the Code completely fails to
parse out overload protection from short circuit protection and
always looks at it from the point of view of the grid. To Blake's
credit he did bring in the issue of current interrupt capacity. <br>
</p>
<p>Point is that a 40A breaker between the gird and (grid-tied)
inverter will never see a condition where the the inverter is
drawing any current of any significant magnitude for any
significant period of time. The only time it will draw current
from the grid is if some element within it is in short-circuit
mode. In this case it really doesn't matter what the rating of the
breaker is, 30 A, 40 A, of 100 A, it is going to trip very quickly
when it sees a short circuit condition. All the over-sizing stuff
in the code really only addresses high load/over load conditions
which are not relevant to the situation we are talking about.</p>
<p>Another way of saying this, which would be more sensible is: yes,
evaluate the circuit in both directions, but only consider the
load to be continuous in the direction from the inverter to the
grid.<br>
</p>
<p>Mark<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 8/22/2019 2:29 PM, William Miller
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:24bab0ec41ffad85b044a3ededda3f3d@mail.gmail.com">
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Blake:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Thank
you for the reference from Schneider.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I
think the point being missed here is that the ampacity
rating of each device needs to be evaluated in light of the
power flow in either direction. If a 40 Amp breaker is
supplied between the utility and the disconnect in question,
in case of a fault, it could supply more current from the
grid than a 30 Amp disconnect is rated to handle. This is
particularly relevant considering the grid is not nearly as
much a current limited source as an inverter.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Sincerely,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">William
Miller </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Miller
Solar</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">17395
Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">805-438-5600</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><a
href="http://www.millersolar.com/" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:blue">www.millersolar.com</span></a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">CA
Lic. 773985</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Quote
of the month: \u201cAs they age, batteries transition from
energy </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">storage
devices to energy consuming devices.\u201c W. Miller</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
Blake Gleason [mailto:<a
href="mailto:blake@sunlightandpower.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">blake@sunlightandpower.com</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 22, 2019 12:38 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:william@millersolar.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">william@millersolar.com</a>;
RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] 30 amp disconnect/40 amp
breaker</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi William,</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Yes, the bulletin I attached was just
an example of a 100% rated disconnect (which happened to
be DC since that's the one I had handy!). My
understanding is that most of the NON-fused Square D
switches are rated for 100%.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">See this FAQ from the manufacturer: <a
href="https://www.schneider-electric.us/en/faqs/FA237949/"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.schneider-electric.us/en/faqs/FA237949/</a>,
quoted below:</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><strong><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Resolution:</span></strong><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><br>
</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">All
General Duty, Heavy Duty or Double Throw Safety
Switches maximum current rating, either 80% or 100% of
the nameplate rating, depends on if the switch is
Fusible or NON-Fusible.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:12.0pt"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New";color:black"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">o<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Fusible
switches are rated to carry up to 80% of the amp
rating of the fuses installed in the switch</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:12.0pt"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New";color:black"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">o<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Non-fusible
(unfused) switches are rated to carry 100% of the
switch nameplate ampere rating</span></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> Regarding this point:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">If,
hypothetically, you could find a 30A disconnect that
was continuous duty rated, if it is fed by a 40 Amp
breaker, as I believe would be required, then the 30
Amp disconnect is still not suitable. You can not
feed a 30 Amp rated device with more than 30 Amps.</span> </p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I believe the original poster was
asking about a 6000W inverter with 25A max output. So
in that case you could use a 100% rated non-fusible
disconnect, because the max current is only 25A. (The
required 40A breaker is sized larger because commonly
available breakers are only 80% rated, not 100%. But
the max current is still only 25A.) See 690.8(A) for
calculation of maximum circuit current, specifically
section (3) for inverters: "The maximum current shall be
the inverter continuous output current rating." (Not
"the inverter continuous output current multiplied by
1.25.")</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Best,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Blake</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 10:59 PM
William Miller <<a
href="mailto:william@millersolar.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">william@millersolar.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Blake:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Thanks
for sharing the data sheet. The document applies
to DC PV systems, however, and I believe the
discussion pertains to the AC inverter output.
Therefore the bulletin you attached does not apply
here. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">(Note
also that this data sheet indicates you need to
use two poles for any application, ungrounded or
grounded. I believe that requirement was usurped
later on for Square D Heavy Duty switches, but
again, that is for a different application.)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I
looked again at Square D general and heavy duty
safety switches rated at 30 Amps and I could not
find any reference that these switches are
continuous duty rated. I still believe that for
the application described, the 125% rating has to
be applied.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">If,
hypothetically, you could find a 30A disconnect
that was continuous duty rated, if it is fed by a
40 Amp breaker, as I believe would be required,
then the 30 Amp disconnect is still not suitable.
You can not feed a 30 Amp rated device with more
than 30 Amps.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Bottom
line, a 30 Amp disconnect will not meet code on
the described project.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">William
Miller</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Miller
Solar</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">17395
Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">805-438-5600</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><a
href="http://www.millersolar.com/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">www.millersolar.com</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">CA
Lic. 773985</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Quote
of the month: \u201cAs they age, batteries transition
from energy </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">storage
devices to energy consuming devices.\u201c W. Miller</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
RE-wrenches [mailto:<a
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Blake Gleason<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 21, 2019 4:20 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] 30 amp
disconnect/40 amp breaker</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
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<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Typically
a fused disconnect can only handle 80% of it's
nominal current on a continuous basis. Unfused
disconnects are often 100% rated. For example,
see attached Square D bulletin #3110DB0401R0410.</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">So,
a 100% rated (unfused) 30A disconnect (at least,
from Square D) should be fine here, as long as
your OCPD is provided elsewhere (eg, the breaker
you mentioned). </p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">NEC
690.8(B)(1)(Exception) explicitly allows a
100%-rated device to be used without multiplying
the inverter output current by 125%.</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On
Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 3:22 PM Greg <<a
href="mailto:greg@remotepowerinc.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">greg@remotepowerinc.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Fellow
Wrenches, I'm having a discussion with a
utility engineer regarding the following
situation:<br>
<br>
Installing a 6kW inverter that has a full
rated output of 25 amps. 80% of 30 is 24.
That means to me I need to go up to a 40 amp
breaker. I'm running #8 (continuous load 25 x
1.25 etc.) <br>
The engineer believes I should use a 60 amp
disco since it's on a 40 amp breaker. My
thinking is I can use a 30 amp disco since it
can not produce more than 25 amps ever. <br>
<br>
Do any of you have a reference that shows what
I'm doing is okay? Not okay? <br>
<br>
Thanks again, <br>
Greg Egan<br>
Remote Power Inc. </p>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
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