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<p>Hi Jay,</p>
<p>Thanks for that info on AGM behavior. I've advocated for years
that charge controller temp sensors should also be used to sense
over temp and shut down or reduce charge current. Midnite added
this feature to their Classic charge controllers. Its a bit hard
to find, but you can set the temp to shut off at the battery
manufacturer's highest recommended temperature. Besides
catastrophic melt downs, high temps can greatly reduce a
battery's cycle life.<br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760</pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/29/18 6:57 PM, jay wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:0B826B16-A946-4412-BEE6-46BC6A63E696@gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
Hi All,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">My 2 cents.<br class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I\u2019ve recently had to do some research for someone
who had 16 Full River 400/6v melt down. ( 48v bank, 2-3 yrs
old). Both banks, all 16 melted.</div>
<div class="">In talking with a battery company expert, what I
was given is the following: AGM if not charged correctly,
especially if they are allowed to sulfate ( under charge), and
then charged heavily during hot conditions can melt down. When
flooded get sulfated they won\u2019t accept a large charge,
current is low. AGM appear to have the opposite reaction
which is that they create high resistance but accept current
creating lots of heat. They can\u2019t vent the heat ( no caps
and if there isn\u2019t enough room around them they can\u2019t expel
the heat either. In a sense if they can melt together, they
are too close together ) and if there is external heat to
contribute then once they get to 40-50C internal they can melt
down. I mentioned in a previous post that Full River has an
EQ type cycle for batteries that are showing lowered capacity
which is a form of sulfation and this EQ is to try and prevent
this exact situation. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">As to MK, I don\u2019t use them as they have very low
cycle life. Those MK 8D AGM are around 700 cycles to 50%, vs
Full River or Rolls AGM at around 1300 cycles to 50%. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">VRLA are a pretty tricky compared to flooded. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">jay</div>
<div class="">peltz power</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<div><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Nov 29, 2018, at 8:33 AM, Starlight Solar
Power Systems <<a
href="mailto:larry@starlightsolar.com" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">larry@starlightsolar.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8" class="">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"
class="">Let me confirm what William has shared about
Deka/MK 8D AGM batteries; they have a very high
failure rate. We saw over 40% fail within 2-3 years of
installation. Deka would not own up to the problem and
offered no compensation.
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Fullriver has been the finest AGM we
have ever sold. All DC models are excellent. We
especially like the 2 volt L-16\u2019s for high capacity
systems. We had one failure, and I know of one
other, where L16 batteries went into thermal
runaway. The cases welded together. After fully
testing the power system that we designed and
installed, we found no problem. Fullriver would not
offer any help or replacement. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Our installations are 100% battery
based. When I do see failures I have many other
identical power systems to compare with (in the
thousands, we do 5-8 per week) and this helps me
make sound judgements about our findings. </div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
14px; font-style: normal;
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word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:
space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
<div style="letter-spacing: normal; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap:
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
<div style="letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap:
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br
style="orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class="">
<span style="orphans: 2; widows: 2;"
class="">Larry Crutcher</span><br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
<div style="font-size: 17px;" class=""><b class="">3
year old Deka 8D</b></div>
<div class=""><span
id="cid:CA2ADA64-A9C8-4D1F-B509-F723853610C1"><Deka
8D AGM failure_ (2).jpeg></span><br
class="Apple-interchange-newline"
style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures:
normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
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word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px;">
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<div style="font-size: 17px;" class=""><b class="">1.5
year old Fullriver L-16</b></div>
<span id="cid:84B65C44-1250-41E5-9816-494F379D33A0"><IMG_0629
(1).jpeg></span></div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">On Nov 28, 2018, at 11:43 PM,
William Miller <<a
href="mailto:william@millersolar.com" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">william@millersolar.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div class="WordSection1" style="page:
WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in
8pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; line-height:
15.546667098999023px;"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; line-height:
16.959999084472656px; font-family: Arial,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"
class="">Allan:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in
8pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; line-height:
15.546667098999023px;"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; line-height:
16.959999084472656px; font-family: Arial,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"
class="">We have had poor luck with the 8D
AGM batteries (MK/Deka). Many of them
have had short life spans along with
swelling, heating and even exploding.
Your point about the inefficient footprint
is right on.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in
8pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; line-height:
15.546667098999023px;"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; line-height:
16.959999084472656px; font-family: Arial,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"
class="">I have minimal experience with
Full River. I have seen a set fail, but
heck, anyone can do that in a hurry.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in
8pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; line-height:
15.546667098999023px;"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; line-height:
16.959999084472656px; font-family: Arial,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"
class="">When footprint is an issue, we
have gone to racked AGMs, like the Deka
Unigy. Now to get higher voltages might
require custom racking, but the cells come
in lots of sizes and shapes, physically
and in capacity. It may be worth checking
into the size of a 400 AH Unigy cell and
see how they rack up. I don\u2019t have but a
smattering of drawings for the models we
have purchased, but my cursory look
indicates you won\u2019t save on volume or
dollars, but you may gain a smaller
footprint with some Unigy racks in series.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in
8pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; line-height:
15.546667098999023px;"><span
style="font-size: 12pt; line-height:
16.959999084472656px; font-family: Arial,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"
class="">William</span></p>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; line-height: normal;" class=""><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Arial, sans-serif;" class=""><span
id="cid:image002.jpg@01D4876B.C3EB5FA0"
class=""><image002.jpg></span><br
class="">
Lic 773985<br class="">
<a href="http://www.millersolar.com/"
style="color: purple; text-decoration:
underline;" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color: blue;" class="">millersolar.com</span></a><br
class="">
805-438-5600</span></div>
</div>
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