<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Dan, Jay,\u2026<div class=""><br class=""><div class="">I\u2019m a huge fan of equalizing AGM batteries often. Some mfg. forbid it; some recommend it for corrective procedure for lost capacity. From 16 years of simple observation and thousands of battery systems installed, customers that equalize AGM\u2019s are getting much longer battery life compared to charging to Mfg. specs. only. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">A short EQ of 30 minutes after absorption is complete seems to be key. If the battery is healthy, current is extremely low at the end of Absorb. Applying 2.6 Vpc, the current rises for a short time then drops back very low. There is not enough current or time to create heat or pressure to release moisture. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The EQ cycle we recommend is every 10 days or less frequently. One customer that equalizes <u class="">daily</u> is at 13 years on a set of Lifeline (Concorde) GPL-4CT batteries. Others are at 10-12 years. Customers that do not EQ seem to get 4-6 years. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">This is all anecdotal but having some understanding what is happening in the electrochemical process makes me a believer. Through charging and discharging, some less active areas of the plates retain unconverted lead sulphate after normal charging. These areas of sulfate continue to grow in hardness and size with each cycle and eventually form a layer with strong bonds that can't be removed through normal charging. Once this process starts (perhaps within 30 days!), these bonds continue to increase. My belief is that by applying a temporary high voltage after most PbSO4 has been recombined, these areas are targeted for recombination. Slowing the growth of irreversible sulfation results in retaining higher capacity and thus longer cycle life. Just my opinion developed over the years it took me to acquire a gray beard. </div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br style="orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=""><span style="orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class="">Larry Crutcher</span><br style="orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=""><span style="orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class="">Starlight Solar Power Systems</span><br style="orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=""><br class=""></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
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<br class=""><div><div class="">On Nov 22, 2018, at 11:18 AM, jay <<a href="mailto:jay.peltz@gmail.com" class="">jay.peltz@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Hi Dan,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Curious about your statement on no EQ for AGM.</div><div class="">FullRiver, Rolls and many others have a EQ or sometimes called "conditioning charge\u201d or something similar, that is recommended for specific situations.</div><div class="">I am not saying that all AGM can/should have a EQ/conditioning charge. Some can, some can\u2019t, OEM/model specific. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">For example I was given the following info from Full River ( 400-6 model) if the batteries are showing signs of low capacity. While they mention this low capacity situation in the manual, they don\u2019t list the following info. I had to call them to get it.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div class="">For 48v battery:</div><div class="">Charge to 60v</div><div class="">4-6 hrs </div><div class="">Charge first thing in the am</div><div class="">3 days in a row</div><div class="">1 x year </div></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Jay</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Peltz Power</div><div class=""><br class=""><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Nov 22, 2018, at 8:23 AM, Dan Fink <<a href="mailto:danbob88@gmail.com" class="">danbob88@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="auto" class="">All; I forgot to note that with the AGMs a full equalization that could temporarily stave off problems across the massively paralleled small-capacity batteries is not possible. </div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I would probably spend a couple hours, no more, load testing it while watching on a thermal imager. I don't have the luxury of a Fluke battery tester. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I would show the customer why it was designed incorrectly, show the test results and FLIR photos, and walk away. I would never take on the job of battery replacement in this situation....you will be the loser who "wrecked his system."</div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="">On Wed, Nov 21, 2018, 05:00 Ray <<a href="mailto:ray@solarray.com" target="_blank" class="">ray@solarray.com</a> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class=""><p class="">Regardless of the Amazing Batcap 30 yr claims debunked by Dan, a
system wired in the manner described (5 batteries in parallel,
then series connecting the sets of 5 for 48 v) is just not going
to charge and discharge evenly. Its violated the no more than 4
parallel strings rule, so I'm surprised it lasted even 5 years.
My guess is that some of the batteries are toast and some may have
a bit of life in them, since they were so grossly imbalanced, so a
neighbor might be able to use a few of the best ones for a couple
more years. Ultimately the rule in off grid solar is "Batteries
are the Weakest Link". The customer is not going to have a decent
experience until they replace that mess with a properly sized and
wired battery bank from a reputable manufacturer.</p><p class="">I won't take on new clients if we can't get the system up to
snuff. I don't need those oh so predictable calls that the power
is off again. <br class="">
</p>
<pre class="m_868464139296867310m_-8229880502669517493moz-signature" cols="72">Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760</pre>
<div class="m_868464139296867310m_-8229880502669517493moz-cite-prefix">On 11/21/18 1:06 AM, Dan Fink wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div dir="auto" class="">
<div class="">Hello All; I would question the client about the origin of
this battery bank. New, used, how long in storage and in
service, etc. If he bought these new, that's a very expensive
battery bank!</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">Usually when I've run into banks of massively
parallel, low amp-hour sealed lead acid batteries, the origin
was "a great surplus deal on a whole bunch of batteries from
wheelchairs/UPS units/manufacturer overrun etc."</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">My BS meter on the manufacturer Batcap was
triggered by a few things....</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">-The company is focused on selling audiophiles
xxxscratch thatxxx punks with car stereos so loud they set off
car alarms 6 spots down. They need lots of amps right now to
thump that bass.</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">- The company name Batcap targets the capacitor
boost market for this application, but actually a dedicated
battery is a great idea, as it would recharge quickly from the
(often up-sized) car alternator. But some folks seem to think
the name implies there's a capacitor involved. There isn't.
Sneaky language in the company name.</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">- Sealed, low internal resistance, 100-125
amp-hours. Sounds like a stock AGM to me, compared to a VRSLA.</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">- Spec sheet contains grammatical errors that
indicate the writer does not speak English as a first
language.</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">- "Solar" seems to have been added to the
website and battery label stickers as an afterthought....and
30 years cycle life in a solar application? Has Batcap been
around for 30 years? Sounds like somebody importing Asian AGMs
and sticking them with new stickers.</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">DAN FINK</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">Buckville Energy Consulting, Box Prairie CO
970-672-4342</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto">
<div dir="ltr" class="">On Tue, Nov 20, 2018, 23:28 Mick Abraham <<a href="mailto:mick@abrahamsolar.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">mick@abrahamsolar.com</a>
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="m_868464139296867310m_-8229880502669517493m_-3986755880765008142m_2168128817494015gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Hello, Drake & All~<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Drake described his service dilemma about
batteries bought elsewhere & whether to
correct the original hinky pack wiring (copied
below). My reply below may seem cynical & I
may seem too eager to declare the existing battery
as: "Failed". Call me jaded.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Mick's $0.02 is: If there's no amp-hour monitor
in the system, I suggest you first try to persuade
the homeowner to buy a metering shunt & a
modest amp-hour meter such as the
Tri-Metric--which could be used to measure &
display the battery bank's amp-hour capacity. If
the client won't approve that expenditure (&
hourly labor for explanations), the service tech
is hamstrung. Nobody can measure the health of a
battery bank by just looking at it or talking
about it...and clients sometimes receive the
inevitable "battery bad news" if they are shown
the diminished capacity on a digital display after
an equitably managed "pump & dump".</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Your thought, Drake, of holding back on any
re-wiring of the battery pack...seems
prudent...until the first set of amp-hour
measurements are recorded as a baseline. From
there...a common pattern is a series of attempted
remediation efforts--all for pay, of course--until
the homeowner acknowledges that it's time to start
afresh. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Oops, I left out an important step: getting a
read on whether the client has the money for new
batteries or not. I'm personally terrible at
getting that reconnaissance done early enough. If
the client isn't materially blessed to be able to
get new batteries, they might be better off
spending limited funds on fuel for the engine
generator instead of on battery testing &
tutorials.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The Wrench List is the Bomb~<br clear="all" class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="m_868464139296867310m_-8229880502669517493m_-3986755880765008142m_2168128817494015m_-6805958290932026730gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Mick Abraham, Proprietor<br class="">
<a href="http://www.abrahamsolar.com/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">www.abrahamsolar.com</a><br class="">
<br class="">
Landline: 970-731-4675</div>
<div class="">Cell phone or for text messaging:
970-946-6584</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br class="">
---------- Forwarded message ----------<br class="">
From: Drake <<a href="mailto:drake.chamberlin@redwoodalliance.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">drake.chamberlin@redwoodalliance.org</a>><br class="">
To: RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>><br class="">
Cc: <br class="">
Bcc: <br class="">
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 11:41:17 -0500<br class="">
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM<br class="">
<div class="">
Hello Wrenches,<br class="">
<br class="">
An owner of an existing system has a bank of
twenty, 100 AH, 12 V Deep
cycle batteries of the
<a href="http://www.xstaticbatcap.com/what-is-a-batcap-.html" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">Batcap</a>
<a href="http://www.xstaticbatcap.com/what-is-a-batcap-.html" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">
</a>brand.<br class="">
<br class="">
The bank is made up of four sets of 5
batteries in parallel to produce
<b class="">500 AH battery sets at 12 V.</b> These
four parallel sets are then
wired in series to give a 48 V nominal
bank. <br class="">
<br class="">
The battery voltages vary from around 13 to
15 volts. The bank is about 5
years old. The CEO of Batcap told the system
owner that these batteries
have lasted up to 30 years in solar
applications, so he has high
expectations for these batteries being
around for a while. <br class="">
<br class="">
My first impulse is to rewire the bank in a
normal series - parallel
configuration. But there are too many
strings to do this without a bus
bar. Besides, the batteries are likely
damaged, and rewiring them might
cause the bank to exhibit unsuspected
problems. How much money is worth
putting into this bank? $0?<br class="">
<br class="">
The owner seems like a reliable guy who
likely hired the wrong installer.
He could use some help. What would you do in
this situation? Rewire the
bank, leave it well enough alone or run for
the hills.<br class="">
<br class="">
Thanks,<br class="">
<br class="">
Drake <br class="">
<br class="">
<a name="m_868464139296867310_m_-8229880502669517493_m_-3986755880765008142_m_2168128817494015_m_-6805958290932026730_m_668141993065556566__MailAutoSig" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" class=""></a>Drake
Chamberlin<br class="">
<i class="">Athens Electric LLC<br class="">
OH License 44810<br class="">
CO License 3773<br class="">
NABCEP Certified Solar PV <br class="">
740-448-7328<br class="">
</i><a href="http://athens-electric.com/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">http://athens-electric.com/</a>
<br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
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<div hspace="streak-pt-mark" style="max-height:1px" class=""><img alt="" style="width:0px;max-height:0px;overflow:hidden" src="https://mailfoogae.appspot.com/t?sender=abWlja0BhYnJhaGFtc29sYXIuY29t&type=zerocontent&guid=20210fc2-3ee7-43bc-98b7-aef93c98ddc9" class=""><font size="1" color="#ffffff" class="">\u1427</font></div>
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