<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Hi All,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">This is a very interesting thread for me. I like low cost renewable energy, and I don\u2019t jump to buy MPPT charge controllers when I believe that the setup I am planning works close to Vmpp inherently. I find that the panels used for grid tie with Vmpp around 31V actually work beautifully here in Scotland on a sunny day. Maybe in exceptional conditions there might be issues with equalising a battery but does this justify spending that much more on the system or settling for lower energy yield by buying controllers with money that can be spent on more modules?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">So for best value (where wire runs are short) I would recommend using 2 standard mass-produced panels/modules on a 48V system here in Scotland, and go with diversion charge control. That\u2019s another big issue over which I differ with the majority. I like to maximise usage of renewable energy whereas most seem to ignore the surplus once the battery is charged. Hardly any MPPT controllers have built-in facilities for diversion of surplus. So in most cases I think the extra energy is rejected, while the homeowner burns propane to heat water. A well-designed system will have plenty of surplus, or the battery will not last long.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">OK so there could be issues with equalising batteries on solar-only systems, but most systems I design are hybrids. And even the solar-only ones don\u2019t seem to struggle in hot weather here. And on the rare occasions when it is very hot in Scotland you are not going to feel any shortage of solar energy. Days are long. Charge current is low.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">As I said it\u2019s a very interesting thread on which I often feel like a lone heretic.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">cheers</div><div class="">Hugh</div><div class=""><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 13 Sep 2018, at 02:55, Sindelar Solar <<a href="mailto:Allan@sindelarsolar.com" class="">Allan@sindelarsolar.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><p style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">Bill and all,</p><p style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">To elaborate a bit on Ray's accurate suggestion with a bit of history... in the early days the general consensus developed that for general use, 36 cells (given that one cell produces just shy of 1/2 volt, regardless of cell size) was the standard cell count for battery charging. This was based on the understanding that a typical Vmp of 17.1-17.6 for a 36 cell module was necessary to equalize a 12V FLA battery to ~15.5 VDC in hot ambient daytime temperatures after all system losses due to various resistance in wire, connections, controllers, etc., were accounted for. You'll occasionally see early modules with 35, 33, 32 and even 30 cells, tried as "self-regulating" modules - didn't work, as it couldn't account for voltage variations due to temperature. Anyway, 36 cells is the default standard to charge a 12V battery. Extrapolating from this, there's a direct correlation between cell count and voltage in most applications: as 36 cells > 12Vnom, 72 cells > 24V and 60 cells > 20Vnom. Go outside of these rules of thumb only with clear understanding of these limitations.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""></p><p style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">Three 60 cell modules is a nominal 80V; ideal for a 48 Vnom battery bank, while still below the 150V limit of many standard controllers in record cold temperatures. Three 72 cell modules, or 72 Vnom, is on the ragged edge of voltage compliance in cold winter climates.</p><p style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">Allan<br class=""></p><div class="moz-cite-prefix" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">On 9/12/2018 10:30 AM, Ray wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:dc97ac73-f8b8-60a5-30b1-706e12cfa1d8@solarray.com" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><p class="">A 2nd option: A pair of 72 cell modules should be enough.<br class=""></p><pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760</pre><div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 9/12/18 9:21 AM, Mac Lewis wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CAOABG4_3wNk_zKwHp6gTchsiSqkLqgnQ6WkH9YJkF3efdc7p-w@mail.gmail.com" class=""><div dir="auto" class="">Hi Bill,<div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">I agree with Allen. We get similar peak temps here and two 60 cell modules doesn't charge a 48V battery bank adequately. This effect would become worse over time with voltage degradation. I try to be at least 15% above highest expected battery voltage with Vmp of the strings. With 150V input limit on the Outback controllers, that leaves you with only one option, strings of 3, with our low temps.</div></div><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="">On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 4:24 PM Sindelar Solar <<a href="mailto:Allan@sindelarsolar.com" moz-do-not-send="true" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">Allan@sindelarsolar.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; padding-left: 1ex;"><div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class=""><p class="">Bill, I wouldn't, especially with FLAs. I have seen this situation here, where the summer highs are similar, with a few homeowner/hack installations and no, 60-cell modules will not finish the charge in hot weather. Strings of three work just about perfect with modern charge controllers, especially in winter, as they range high enough but well below 150VDC limits.</p><p class="">Allan<br class=""></p><div class="m_1092409808247784048moz-cite-prefix">On 9/11/2018 4:04 PM, Bill Battagin wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><p class="">I've been on hold with OB for about 40 minutes now and I need to know if 2 SW PVs with a Voc of 39.9 and a Vmpp of 31.3 will do an effective job of charging a 48 volt LA battery especially with temps of 95 degrees. Anybody have experience with this or similar, Appreciate the feedback. It just seems I'm a little low in Vmpp if I want to equalize when its hot. Will it be even more questionable in 10 years as PVs age?<br class=""></p><p class="">OB did just pickup only to tell me I need Java for the string sizing tool and he can't help me with this configuration.</p><p class="">Bill<br class=""></p>--<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""></blockquote><div class="m_1092409808247784048moz-signature"><div class="m_1092409808247784048WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 8pt; line-height: normal; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><b class="">Allan Sindelar</b><span class=""><br class=""></span><a href="mailto:allan@sindelarsolar.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span class="">allan@sindelarsolar.com</span></a><span class=""><br class=""></span><span class="">NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional<br class="">New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician<br class="">Founder (Retired),<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span class="">Positive Energy, Inc<span class="m_1092409808247784048GramE">.</span></span><br class=""><b class="">505 780-2738 cell</b></span><span class=""></span></p><div style="margin: 0in 0in 8pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div></div></div>_______________________________________________<br class="">List sponsored by Redwood Alliance<br class=""><br class="">List Address:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br class=""><br class="">Change listserver email address & settings:<br class=""><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br class=""><br class="">List-Archive:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html</a><br class=""><br class="">List rules & etiquette:<br class=""><a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br class=""><br class="">Check out or update participant bios:<br class=""><a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/" rel="noreferrer
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</pre></blockquote><div class="moz-signature" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">--<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 8pt; line-height: normal; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><b class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt;" class="">Allan Sindelar</span></b><span style="font-size: 12pt;" class=""><br class=""></span><a href="mailto:allan@sindelarsolar.com" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">allan@sindelarsolar.com</span></a><span style="font-size: 12pt;" class=""><br class=""></span><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional<br class="">New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician<br class="">Founder (Retired),<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span class="">Positive Energy, Inc<span class="GramE">.</span></span><br class=""><b class="">505 780-2738 cell</b></span><span style="font-size: 12pt;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 8pt; 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font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Check out or update participant bios:</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></body></html>