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<p><font face="Verdana">In submitting my comments, I only could
access 2017, and that's where I ma<font face="Verdana">de my
comments. Does anyone have more information, or is it too
late? </font></font><br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 8/29/2018 10:05 PM, Ray wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:c2a0b355-a539-6f65-5a5a-03a5de2ed8b8@solarray.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<p>The link to review the first draft of the 2020 code is not
working. Do you have just the changes for 690? I'd really like
to submit some comments.</p>
<p>Thanks,<br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760</pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 8/28/18 7:59 AM, Rebekah Hren
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CA+iiD9A+T1pV-hYqgRKTLrzXo-BkR+hTqYVLCsSm2iZFshDu7Q@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
charset=utf-8">
<div dir="ltr">Hi all,
<div>What you need to do now - to get your voices heard about
rapid shutdown requirements- is to make public comments on
the first draft of the 2020 NEC. <b><u>Comments are due
AUGUST 30 at midnight!!! </u></b></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Here is the <a
href="https://www.necanet.org/about-us/news/news-release-archive/news/2018/07/02/nfpa-releases-2020-nec-first-draft-for-public-review"
moz-do-not-send="true">link to a press release</a> with
links to read the draft and input your comments:</div>
<div><a
href="https://www.necanet.org/about-us/news/news-release-archive/news/2018/07/02/nfpa-releases-2020-nec-first-draft-for-public-review"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.necanet.org/about-us/news/news-release-archive/news/2018/07/02/nfpa-releases-2020-nec-first-draft-for-public-review</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>The process for changing the NEC is standardized by the
NFPA and while it may not be perfect, it's what we've got!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
Best, </div>
<div>Rebekah Hren</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 6:50 AM cwarfel <<a
href="mailto:cwarfel@entech-engineering.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">cwarfel@entech-engineering.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p><font face="Verdana">I like your solutions to this.
Just sticking to rapid shutdown and <font
face="Verdana">not the fire code, </font>I think
a lot of the p<font face="Verdana">roblems w<font
face="Verdana">ith 690.12 c<font face="Verdana">o<font
face="Verdana">uld be reduced if the maximum
string voltage was 15<font face="Verdana">0
or even 250. It reduces the ampacit<font
face="Verdana">y on a roof for a given
power and I feel that is more of a
danger than <font face="Verdana">array
voltage that the Firefighters are
highly likely to avoid<font
face="Verdana">. <br>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana">I
<font face="Verdana">still cannot
ge<font face="Verdana">t Outb<font
face="Verdana">ack Power to
provide a corrected
installation ma<font
face="Verdana">nual or a
start up procedure <font
face="Verdana">on the
RSI/ICS equipment. T<font
face="Verdana">wo plus
months and all I get a<font
face="Verdana">re
repeat<font
face="Verdana">ed
</font>vague <font
face="Verdana">or
incorrect
information. One
expert at OB said
that they really
didn't deal much
with R<font
face="Verdana">apid
Shutdown............</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana">I
cannot install
a<font
face="Verdana">ny
more Outback
on roofs at
this time.</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana">I'll
see if it is
ok to provide
a link to an
onl<font
face="Verdana">ine
petition to <font
face="Verdana">change
690.12. <br>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><br>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana">Chris</font></font></font></font><br>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></p>
<p><br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="m_5299855531542018223moz-cite-prefix">On
8/27/2018 2:13 PM, Ray wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p>HI Chris;</p>
<p>As with all things bureaucratic, good intentions
can go awry when actually implemented. Years ago, I
was one of the wrenches pushing for some form of
disconnect closer to the power source, or the PV
array. I had no idea it would come back to bite us
small off grid folks so hard, though. I'm not quite
for scrapping all of 690.12, but I do think it needs
some serious work. <i>In or on the building</i>
needs to be defined more clearly as 'on the roof'.
Ground mounts need a clearer exemption. The PV
disconnect needs to be clearly defined and also
clearly stated that the Rapid disconnect system
stops there. The time limit needs to be bumped up
to 90 seconds: no one is going to throw the switch
and be hacking on the roof that fast. The array
voltage should be 150 vdc, so that lower voltage off
grid systems could be exempt, and I really think
690.12 should only apply to larger arrays (over
10kW) that have long exposed runs of conduit (over
10 yards) or that cover more than a certain
percentage of the total roof area. If an array
covers one face of the garage it should be exempt,
and if it covers half the total roof, then it should
have Rapid disconnect, for instance. We need to be
sensible, do the fire fighters have a good spot to
cut and vent the roof without electrical hazards or
not? <br>
</p>
<p>Its interesting how article 690 has morphed from
being almost entirely oriented towards off grid in
99 and 02, to now off grid is barely even
considered. Just look at the lack of thought when
they wrote the definitions for <i>DC to DC
Converters</i>. The solar industry has been ready
and willing to be thrown under the bus at every
turn. I think its about time we started advocating
for our own self interests like all the other
parties involved. This also means that us off grid
folks need to be properly represented, and off grid
considered with all code changes. I think DC
coupled PV should have its own section and be
separated from AC coupled PV. The systems are so
different that it doesn't make sense to throw them
into the same section. The emergence of article 706
is a step in the right direction.<br>
</p>
<pre class="m_5299855531542018223moz-signature" cols="72">Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760</pre>
<div class="m_5299855531542018223moz-cite-prefix">On
8/23/18 5:31 PM, <a
class="m_5299855531542018223moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:cwarfel@entech-engineering.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">cwarfel@entech-engineering.com</a>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p>I think Rapid Shutdown should be scrapped
professionally and personally. It was ill
conceived and ill written. Anyone willing to join
me in a petition to CMP 44 and the like, contact
me off list. </p>
<p>To your question directly, you have a ground
mounted system and you are not subject to 690.12
unless your conductors are "in or on building"
which i cannot seem to find what that actually
means. Exempted are buildings that are isolated
only for the PV system This is a big win for
installers as almost everyone installs systems
like this....... Right. They used to have a
dimension to this, but I guess that gave
installers too much information. This is a stupid
Code addition for roof mounted pv systems,
disguised as protecting Firefighters, but not
doing so in reality. The NEC looks politically
compromised by consultants and manufacturers who
too advantage of this fear mongering. No other
country with a pv industry has historically done
this. Why are installers not up in arms about
this?</p>
<p>This is the NEC reference.</p>
<p>690.12 Rapid Shutdown of PV Systems on Buildings.
PV system circuits installed on or in buildings
shall include a rapid shutdown function to reduce
shock hazard for emergency responders in
accordance with 690.12(A) through (D).</p>
<p>If your system is ground mounted, you are outside
the "altruistic" intent of 690.12 of protecting
Firefighters. Put a initiation device disconnect
switch at the array. Any supporters of RS should
chime in with the support of 690.12 and add
clarity and guidance to those of us who actually
install systems and have to deal with this
baloney. 690.12 has caused more problems for
multimode systems than any tariffs, which are bad
enough. I don' think the industry needs any more
"safe design and installation" assistance from the
CMPs involved with this issue.</p>
<p>Chris Warfel</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div> </div>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>On 2018-08-23 00:31, Ray wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding:0
0.4em;border-left:#1010ff 2px solid;margin:0">
<p>Greetings fellow wrenches;</p>
<p>I know we have beat this many times but I once
again have not been able to resolve the
contradictory information in 690 in regards to
implementing 690.12. As Rebekah Hren pointed
out before, the diagrams shown in Figure
690.1(b) show that the <em>PV System DC Circuit</em>
stops at the <em>PV Disconnect</em>. Note 2
says specifically the '<em>PV Disconnect
separates the PV system from all other systems</em>'.
But then in the definitions in 690.2 on the next
page, the new definition of a <em>P</em><em>V
System DC Circuit</em> says that it includes
DC to DC converter output circuits. (which are
Solar Edge module level controls, but could be
interpreted as a MPPT battery charge
Controller?) </p>
<p>Then 690.12 which only applies to '<em>PV
System circuits in or on buildings</em>', says
we have to control conductors more than 3 ft
after penetrating the building. </p>
<p>So in my case, I'm looking at a ground mount,
and installing an external lockable disconnect
on the wall before it goes into the building.
This will officially be the PV Disconnect. In
my interpretation, I should not need to do any
Rapid Shutdown, because I've essentially
prevented the <em>PV system</em> from ever
entering the building at all ( based on the 5th
diagram and Note 2) However, I could see an AHJ
claiming I had to do RS all the way to the
output side of the charge controller.</p>
<p>If this were true, could I simply apply RS
equipment from the PV disconnect to the output
of the charge controller, or am I back to module
level shutdown for my ground mounted array, or
could I build a tiny building that just housed
the PV Disconnect and take the exemption for '<em>buildings
with the sole purpose of housing PV system
equipment</em>'? </p>
<p>Essentially the definitions in 690.2 are too
broad, and are at odds with the Figure and Notes
of 690.1. They really didn't fix this in the
2017 code for us lowly off gridders. Charge
controllers are covered by article 706.23<u> </u><u><em>Charge
Control</em></u>, and NOT by 690.12 at all.
IMHO, the charge controller needs to be clearly
defined and differentiated from DC to DC
converters like Solar Edge's module level DC
equipment. </p>
<p>I just want to go back to doing solar designs
and installations, and quit acting like an
attorney parsing every word of this confusing
code language.</p>
<pre class="m_5299855531542018223moz-signature">--
Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760</pre>
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<div class="m_5299855531542018223moz-signature">-- <br>
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<div
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<font size="-1"> Christopher
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ENTECH Engineering, Inc.<br>
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List-Archive: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html">http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html</a>
List rules & etiquette:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a>
Check out or update participant bios:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a>
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<font size="-1"> Christopher Warfel, PE<br>
ENTECH Engineering, Inc.<br>
PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807<br>
(401)466-8978</font><br>
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