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<p>The link to review the first draft of the 2020 code is not
working. Do you have just the changes for 690? I'd really like
to submit some comments.</p>
<p>Thanks,<br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760</pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 8/28/18 7:59 AM, Rebekah Hren wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CA+iiD9A+T1pV-hYqgRKTLrzXo-BkR+hTqYVLCsSm2iZFshDu7Q@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<div dir="ltr">Hi all,
<div>What you need to do now - to get your voices heard about
rapid shutdown requirements- is to make public comments on
the first draft of the 2020 NEC. <b><u>Comments are due
AUGUST 30 at midnight!!! </u></b></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Here is the <a
href="https://www.necanet.org/about-us/news/news-release-archive/news/2018/07/02/nfpa-releases-2020-nec-first-draft-for-public-review"
moz-do-not-send="true">link to a press release</a> with
links to read the draft and input your comments:</div>
<div><a
href="https://www.necanet.org/about-us/news/news-release-archive/news/2018/07/02/nfpa-releases-2020-nec-first-draft-for-public-review"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.necanet.org/about-us/news/news-release-archive/news/2018/07/02/nfpa-releases-2020-nec-first-draft-for-public-review</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>The process for changing the NEC is standardized by the
NFPA and while it may not be perfect, it's what we've got!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
Best, </div>
<div>Rebekah Hren</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 6:50 AM cwarfel <<a
href="mailto:cwarfel@entech-engineering.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">cwarfel@entech-engineering.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p><font face="Verdana">I like your solutions to this.
Just sticking to rapid shutdown and <font
face="Verdana">not the fire code, </font>I think a
lot of the p<font face="Verdana">roblems w<font
face="Verdana">ith 690.12 c<font face="Verdana">o<font
face="Verdana">uld be reduced if the maximum
string voltage was 15<font face="Verdana">0 or
even 250. It reduces the ampacit<font
face="Verdana">y on a roof for a given
power and I feel that is more of a danger
than <font face="Verdana">array voltage
that the Firefighters are highly likely
to avoid<font face="Verdana">. <br>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana">I
<font face="Verdana">still cannot ge<font
face="Verdana">t Outb<font
face="Verdana">ack Power to
provide a corrected
installation ma<font
face="Verdana">nual or a
start up procedure <font
face="Verdana">on the
RSI/ICS equipment. T<font
face="Verdana">wo plus
months and all I get a<font
face="Verdana">re
repeat<font
face="Verdana">ed </font>vague
<font face="Verdana">or
incorrect
information. One
expert at OB said
that they really
didn't deal much
with R<font
face="Verdana">apid
Shutdown............</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana">I
cannot install a<font
face="Verdana">ny
more Outback
on roofs at
this time.</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana">I'll
see if it is
ok to provide
a link to an
onl<font
face="Verdana">ine
petition to <font
face="Verdana">change
690.12. <br>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><br>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana">Chris</font></font></font></font><br>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></p>
<p><br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="m_5299855531542018223moz-cite-prefix">On
8/27/2018 2:13 PM, Ray wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p>HI Chris;</p>
<p>As with all things bureaucratic, good intentions can
go awry when actually implemented. Years ago, I was
one of the wrenches pushing for some form of
disconnect closer to the power source, or the PV
array. I had no idea it would come back to bite us
small off grid folks so hard, though. I'm not quite
for scrapping all of 690.12, but I do think it needs
some serious work. <i>In or on the building</i>
needs to be defined more clearly as 'on the roof'.
Ground mounts need a clearer exemption. The PV
disconnect needs to be clearly defined and also
clearly stated that the Rapid disconnect system stops
there. The time limit needs to be bumped up to 90
seconds: no one is going to throw the switch and be
hacking on the roof that fast. The array voltage
should be 150 vdc, so that lower voltage off grid
systems could be exempt, and I really think 690.12
should only apply to larger arrays (over 10kW) that
have long exposed runs of conduit (over 10 yards) or
that cover more than a certain percentage of the total
roof area. If an array covers one face of the garage
it should be exempt, and if it covers half the total
roof, then it should have Rapid disconnect, for
instance. We need to be sensible, do the fire
fighters have a good spot to cut and vent the roof
without electrical hazards or not? <br>
</p>
<p>Its interesting how article 690 has morphed from
being almost entirely oriented towards off grid in 99
and 02, to now off grid is barely even considered.
Just look at the lack of thought when they wrote the
definitions for <i>DC to DC Converters</i>. The
solar industry has been ready and willing to be thrown
under the bus at every turn. I think its about time
we started advocating for our own self interests like
all the other parties involved. This also means that
us off grid folks need to be properly represented, and
off grid considered with all code changes. I think DC
coupled PV should have its own section and be
separated from AC coupled PV. The systems are so
different that it doesn't make sense to throw them
into the same section. The emergence of article 706
is a step in the right direction.<br>
</p>
<pre class="m_5299855531542018223moz-signature" cols="72">Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760</pre>
<div class="m_5299855531542018223moz-cite-prefix">On
8/23/18 5:31 PM, <a
class="m_5299855531542018223moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:cwarfel@entech-engineering.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">cwarfel@entech-engineering.com</a>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p>I think Rapid Shutdown should be scrapped
professionally and personally. It was ill conceived
and ill written. Anyone willing to join me in a
petition to CMP 44 and the like, contact me off
list. </p>
<p>To your question directly, you have a ground
mounted system and you are not subject to 690.12
unless your conductors are "in or on building" which
i cannot seem to find what that actually means.
Exempted are buildings that are isolated only for
the PV system This is a big win for installers as
almost everyone installs systems like this.......
Right. They used to have a dimension to this, but
I guess that gave installers too much information.
This is a stupid Code addition for roof mounted pv
systems, disguised as protecting Firefighters, but
not doing so in reality. The NEC looks politically
compromised by consultants and manufacturers who too
advantage of this fear mongering. No other country
with a pv industry has historically done this. Why
are installers not up in arms about this?</p>
<p>This is the NEC reference.</p>
<p>690.12 Rapid Shutdown of PV Systems on Buildings.
PV system circuits installed on or in buildings
shall include a rapid shutdown function to reduce
shock hazard for emergency responders in accordance
with 690.12(A) through (D).</p>
<p>If your system is ground mounted, you are outside
the "altruistic" intent of 690.12 of protecting
Firefighters. Put a initiation device disconnect
switch at the array. Any supporters of RS should
chime in with the support of 690.12 and add clarity
and guidance to those of us who actually install
systems and have to deal with this baloney. 690.12
has caused more problems for multimode systems than
any tariffs, which are bad enough. I don' think the
industry needs any more "safe design and
installation" assistance from the CMPs involved with
this issue.</p>
<p>Chris Warfel</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div> </div>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>On 2018-08-23 00:31, Ray wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding:0
0.4em;border-left:#1010ff 2px solid;margin:0">
<p>Greetings fellow wrenches;</p>
<p>I know we have beat this many times but I once
again have not been able to resolve the
contradictory information in 690 in regards to
implementing 690.12. As Rebekah Hren pointed out
before, the diagrams shown in Figure 690.1(b) show
that the <em>PV System DC Circuit</em> stops at
the <em>PV Disconnect</em>. Note 2 says
specifically the '<em>PV Disconnect separates the
PV system from all other systems</em>'. But
then in the definitions in 690.2 on the next page,
the new definition of a <em>P</em><em>V System DC
Circuit</em> says that it includes DC to DC
converter output circuits. (which are Solar Edge
module level controls, but could be interpreted as
a MPPT battery charge Controller?) </p>
<p>Then 690.12 which only applies to '<em>PV System
circuits in or on buildings</em>', says we have
to control conductors more than 3 ft after
penetrating the building. </p>
<p>So in my case, I'm looking at a ground mount, and
installing an external lockable disconnect on the
wall before it goes into the building. This will
officially be the PV Disconnect. In my
interpretation, I should not need to do any Rapid
Shutdown, because I've essentially prevented the <em>PV
system</em> from ever entering the building at
all ( based on the 5th diagram and Note 2)
However, I could see an AHJ claiming I had to do
RS all the way to the output side of the charge
controller.</p>
<p>If this were true, could I simply apply RS
equipment from the PV disconnect to the output of
the charge controller, or am I back to module
level shutdown for my ground mounted array, or
could I build a tiny building that just housed the
PV Disconnect and take the exemption for '<em>buildings
with the sole purpose of housing PV system
equipment</em>'? </p>
<p>Essentially the definitions in 690.2 are too
broad, and are at odds with the Figure and Notes
of 690.1. They really didn't fix this in the 2017
code for us lowly off gridders. Charge controllers
are covered by article 706.23<u> </u><u><em>Charge
Control</em></u>, and NOT by 690.12 at all.
IMHO, the charge controller needs to be clearly
defined and differentiated from DC to DC
converters like Solar Edge's module level DC
equipment. </p>
<p>I just want to go back to doing solar designs and
installations, and quit acting like an attorney
parsing every word of this confusing code
language.</p>
<pre class="m_5299855531542018223moz-signature">--
Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760</pre>
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<font size="-1"> Christopher
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