<div dir="ltr">Hi all, <div>What you need to do now - to get your voices heard about rapid shutdown requirements- is to make public comments on the first draft of the 2020 NEC. <b><u>Comments are due AUGUST 30 at midnight!!! </u></b></div><div><br></div><div>Here is the <a href="https://www.necanet.org/about-us/news/news-release-archive/news/2018/07/02/nfpa-releases-2020-nec-first-draft-for-public-review">link to a press release</a> with links to read the draft and input your comments:</div><div><a href="https://www.necanet.org/about-us/news/news-release-archive/news/2018/07/02/nfpa-releases-2020-nec-first-draft-for-public-review">https://www.necanet.org/about-us/news/news-release-archive/news/2018/07/02/nfpa-releases-2020-nec-first-draft-for-public-review</a><br></div><div><br></div><div><div>The process for changing the NEC is standardized by the NFPA and while it may not be perfect, it's what we've got!</div><div><br></div>Best, </div><div>Rebekah Hren</div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 6:50 AM cwarfel <<a href="mailto:cwarfel@entech-engineering.com">cwarfel@entech-engineering.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p><font face="Verdana">I like your solutions to this. Just sticking
to rapid shutdown and <font face="Verdana">not the fire code, </font>I
think a lot of the p<font face="Verdana">roblems w<font face="Verdana">ith 690.12 c<font face="Verdana">o<font face="Verdana">uld be reduced if the maximum string
voltage was 15<font face="Verdana">0 or even 250. It
reduces the ampacit<font face="Verdana">y on a roof
for a given power and I feel that is more of a
danger than <font face="Verdana">array voltage that
the Firefighters are highly likely to avoid<font face="Verdana">. <br>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana">I <font face="Verdana">still cannot ge<font face="Verdana">t Outb<font face="Verdana">ack
Power to provide a corrected
installation ma<font face="Verdana">nual
or a start up procedure <font face="Verdana">on the RSI/ICS
equipment. T<font face="Verdana">wo
plus months and all I get a<font face="Verdana">re repeat<font face="Verdana">ed </font>vague
<font face="Verdana">or
incorrect information. One
expert at OB said that they
really didn't deal much with R<font face="Verdana">apid
Shutdown............</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana">I cannot
install a<font face="Verdana">ny more
Outback on roofs at this
time.</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana">I'll
see if it is ok to
provide a link to an
onl<font face="Verdana">ine
petition to <font face="Verdana">change
690.12. <br>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><br>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana">Chris</font></font></font></font><br>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font><br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="m_5299855531542018223moz-cite-prefix">On 8/27/2018 2:13 PM, Ray wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p>HI Chris;</p>
<p>As with all things bureaucratic, good intentions can go awry
when actually implemented. Years ago, I was one of the wrenches
pushing for some form of disconnect closer to the power source,
or the PV array. I had no idea it would come back to bite us
small off grid folks so hard, though. I'm not quite for
scrapping all of 690.12, but I do think it needs some serious
work. <i>In or on the building</i> needs to be defined more
clearly as 'on the roof'. Ground mounts need a clearer
exemption. The PV disconnect needs to be clearly defined and
also clearly stated that the Rapid disconnect system stops
there. The time limit needs to be bumped up to 90 seconds: no
one is going to throw the switch and be hacking on the roof that
fast. The array voltage should be 150 vdc, so that lower
voltage off grid systems could be exempt, and I really think
690.12 should only apply to larger arrays (over 10kW) that have
long exposed runs of conduit (over 10 yards) or that cover more
than a certain percentage of the total roof area. If an array
covers one face of the garage it should be exempt, and if it
covers half the total roof, then it should have Rapid
disconnect, for instance. We need to be sensible, do the fire
fighters have a good spot to cut and vent the roof without
electrical hazards or not? <br>
</p>
<p>Its interesting how article 690 has morphed from being almost
entirely oriented towards off grid in 99 and 02, to now off grid
is barely even considered. Just look at the lack of thought
when they wrote the definitions for <i>DC to DC Converters</i>.
The solar industry has been ready and willing to be thrown under
the bus at every turn. I think its about time we started
advocating for our own self interests like all the other parties
involved. This also means that us off grid folks need to be
properly represented, and off grid considered with all code
changes. I think DC coupled PV should have its own section and
be separated from AC coupled PV. The systems are so different
that it doesn't make sense to throw them into the same section.
The emergence of article 706 is a step in the right direction.<br>
</p>
<pre class="m_5299855531542018223moz-signature" cols="72">Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760</pre>
<div class="m_5299855531542018223moz-cite-prefix">On 8/23/18 5:31 PM, <a class="m_5299855531542018223moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:cwarfel@entech-engineering.com" target="_blank">cwarfel@entech-engineering.com</a>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p>I think Rapid Shutdown should be scrapped professionally and
personally. It was ill conceived and ill written. Anyone
willing to join me in a petition to CMP 44 and the like,
contact me off list. </p>
<p>To your question directly, you have a ground mounted system
and you are not subject to 690.12 unless your conductors are
"in or on building" which i cannot seem to find what that
actually means. Exempted are buildings that are isolated only
for the PV system This is a big win for installers as almost
everyone installs systems like this....... Right. They
used to have a dimension to this, but I guess that gave
installers too much information. This is a stupid Code
addition for roof mounted pv systems, disguised as protecting
Firefighters, but not doing so in reality. The NEC looks
politically compromised by consultants and manufacturers who
too advantage of this fear mongering. No other country with a
pv industry has historically done this. Why are installers not
up in arms about this?</p>
<p>This is the NEC reference.</p>
<p>690.12 Rapid Shutdown of PV Systems on Buildings. PV system
circuits installed on or in buildings shall include a rapid
shutdown function to reduce shock hazard for emergency
responders in accordance with 690.12(A) through (D).</p>
<p>If your system is ground mounted, you are outside the
"altruistic" intent of 690.12 of protecting Firefighters. Put
a initiation device disconnect switch at the array. Any
supporters of RS should chime in with the support of 690.12
and add clarity and guidance to those of us who actually
install systems and have to deal with this baloney. 690.12
has caused more problems for multimode systems than any
tariffs, which are bad enough. I don' think the industry needs
any more "safe design and installation" assistance from the
CMPs involved with this issue.</p>
<p>Chris Warfel</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div> </div>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>On 2018-08-23 00:31, Ray wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding:0 0.4em;border-left:#1010ff 2px solid;margin:0">
<p>Greetings fellow wrenches;</p>
<p>I know we have beat this many times but I once again have
not been able to resolve the contradictory information in
690 in regards to implementing 690.12. As Rebekah Hren
pointed out before, the diagrams shown in Figure 690.1(b)
show that the <em>PV System DC Circuit</em> stops at the <em>PV
Disconnect</em>. Note 2 says specifically the '<em>PV
Disconnect separates the PV system from all other systems</em>'.
But then in the definitions in 690.2 on the next page, the
new definition of a <em>P</em><em>V System DC Circuit</em>
says that it includes DC to DC converter output circuits.
(which are Solar Edge module level controls, but could be
interpreted as a MPPT battery charge Controller?) </p>
<p>Then 690.12 which only applies to '<em>PV System circuits
in or on buildings</em>', says we have to control
conductors more than 3 ft after penetrating the building. </p>
<p>So in my case, I'm looking at a ground mount, and
installing an external lockable disconnect on the wall
before it goes into the building. This will officially be
the PV Disconnect. In my interpretation, I should not need
to do any Rapid Shutdown, because I've essentially prevented
the <em>PV system</em> from ever entering the building at
all ( based on the 5th diagram and Note 2) However, I could
see an AHJ claiming I had to do RS all the way to the output
side of the charge controller.</p>
<p>If this were true, could I simply apply RS equipment from
the PV disconnect to the output of the charge controller, or
am I back to module level shutdown for my ground mounted
array, or could I build a tiny building that just housed the
PV Disconnect and take the exemption for '<em>buildings with
the sole purpose of housing PV system equipment</em>'? </p>
<p>Essentially the definitions in 690.2 are too broad, and are
at odds with the Figure and Notes of 690.1. They really
didn't fix this in the 2017 code for us lowly off gridders.
Charge controllers are covered by article 706.23<u> </u><u><em>Charge
Control</em></u>, and NOT by 690.12 at all. IMHO, the
charge controller needs to be clearly defined and
differentiated from DC to DC converters like Solar Edge's
module level DC equipment. </p>
<p>I just want to go back to doing solar designs and
installations, and quit acting like an attorney parsing
every word of this confusing code language.</p>
<pre class="m_5299855531542018223moz-signature">--
Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760</pre>
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<div class="m_5299855531542018223moz-signature">
<font size="-1"> Christopher Warfel, PE<br>
ENTECH Engineering, Inc.<br>
PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807<br>
(401)466-8978</font><br>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr">Tel: 336.266.8800<br>NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional\u2122 091209-85<br>NC Licensed Electrical Contractor</div></div></div>