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<p><font face="Verdana">Thanks Rebe<font face="Verdana">kah, At this
time, I feel like we are stranded on one option that used <font
face="Verdana">to be very popular wi<font face="Verdana">th
my customers. Unlike most of the mainland, 95<font
face="Verdana">% of our customers w<font face="Verdana">ant
batter<font face="Verdana">ies. <font face="Verdana">R<font
face="Verdana">ight now, we are only going to do
ground mounted dc coupled until we have a chance
to <font face="Verdana">evaluate the Ou<font
face="Verdana">tback system. The combiner
box is lar<font face="Verdana">ge and that
doesn't excit<font face="Verdana">e som<font
face="Verdana">e people. Chris</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font><br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 7/6/2018 8:23 PM, Rebekah Hren
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CA+iiD9BUyWg60hHXUWm64orkMxwxRagNSb2EC+Rf02Nv1Brm3g@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<div dir="ltr">Hi Ray and Dan and Chris, etc,
<div><br>
<div>I agree with a lot of what you are saying, don't get me
wrong...I have an off-grid house too and I've been worrying
about how module level shutdown will be implemented and what
it means for reliability and cost, especially dc-coupled
battery-based systems that really don't have or need MLPE.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I'm working on article for the Sept/Oct Homepower about
rapid shutdown and one the things I've been excited to learn
about is the new Sunspec alliance <a
href="https://www.solarpowerworldonline.com/2017/10/communicating-get-job-done-inverters-sunspecs-rapid-shutdown-standard/"
moz-do-not-send="true">power line communication protocol</a>
for receivers and transmitters for RS. As Ray mentioned
Midnite is already selling their <a
href="http://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=671&productCatName=Software&productCat_ID=44&sortOrder=1&act=p"
moz-do-not-send="true">SOB</a> (er, haha). And Tigo just
got their cheapest RS <a
href="https://www.tigoenergy.com/library/view/TS4-F+-+Fire+Safety.pdf/"
moz-do-not-send="true">MLPE option the TSF-F UL</a>
listed. What's cool is the devices are inverter-agnostic,
and don't need another conductor for data or power running
to them. But as Ray also said, they aren't working with
charge controllers, yet. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So I do think there is some good news on the horizon!
From the way the 2020 NEC first draft is written, I don't
perceive any chance of the 690.12 rules really changing
drastically. But something else that may change the products
we can use to meet the requirements is a new UL standard
that is being worked on- UL 3741 PV Hazard control. I don't
know much about it, but here is a <a
href="https://csds.ul.com/Include/ViewRoster.aspx?GroupID=1782&stpNumber=3741"
moz-do-not-send="true">list of the people</a> who are on
the Standards Technical Panel. I think a few of them are on
this listserv so maybe one of them will give us an update!</div>
<div><br>
Best, </div>
<div>Rebekah</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 4:39 PM Ray <<a
href="mailto:ray@solarray.com" moz-do-not-send="true">ray@solarray.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="m_-7344949816968868575moz-forward-container"><br>
<br>
-------- Forwarded Message --------
<table
class="m_-7344949816968868575moz-email-headers-table"
cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT">Subject:
</th>
<td>Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown and January 1
2019 option?</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT">Date:
</th>
<td>Fri, 6 Jul 2018 16:37:47 -0600</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT">From:
</th>
<td>Ray <a
class="m_-7344949816968868575moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:ray@solarray.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><ray@solarray.com></a></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT">To:
</th>
<td>Rebekah Hren <a
class="m_-7344949816968868575moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:rebekah.hren@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><rebekah.hren@gmail.com></a></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
<br>
<p>Hi Rebekah;</p>
<p>I very much appreciated your previous posts on this.
Yes, we do not need to disconnect the inverter and
battery per previous interpretations. However, the RS
system can and will trip for a variety of reasons, which
disconnects the charging system. It might take a couple
of days to discharge the batteries, but the results are
the same: rotten meat in the fridge and a dead battery.
If no one is home, thousands of dollars of battery could
be ruined in a matter of weeks, if its Gel or AGM. <br>
</p>
<p>If we get to a point where all the modules have shut
down built in, and the Controllers also have built in
disconnect so their capacitors don't back feed, then it
won't be so hard to comply with 690.12. In the mean
time though, off grid should be given a clear exemption
based on array size and Voc of the array. We are often
only wiring 2 modules in series, so we are already well
below 100 v. Rules designed for 600 v arrays should
not unilaterally apply to everyone, just as 600 VAC
rules don't all apply to 120 vac residential. There are
numerous exemptions for lower voltage AC situations, we
are just asking that the same thinking be applied to PV.<br>
</p>
<pre class="m_-7344949816968868575moz-signature" cols="72">Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760</pre>
<div class="m_-7344949816968868575moz-cite-prefix">On
7/6/18 2:57 PM, Rebekah Hren wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">I believe there was a big improvement for
off-grid systems as relates to RS in the 2017 NEC -
the diagrams in 690.1(b) all show the PV system
disconnect clearly now. If you check out the diagrams
you can see that energy storage/battery circuits,
including the battery-based inverter whether AC or DC
coupled, are outside the PV system boundary, thus not
PV system circuits, thus not subject to RS.
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Also, th<a
href="https://downloads.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/all-codes-and-standards/list-of-codes-and-standards/detail?code=70&tab=nextedition"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">e NEC
2020 1st draft report has been published</a>, so
get your comments submitted! </div>
<div><br>
<div>Rebekah Hren</div>
<div>Member, NEC CMP-4</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 2:22 PM Dan Fink
<<a href="mailto:danbob88@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">danbob88@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">I agree with you, Ray, as a purely
off-grid solar installer and troubleshooter. I
think all that was accomplished in NEC 2017 on
this issue is that non-habitable structures, like
the common off-grid 'power shed' don't need 690.12
RS anymore. </div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
<div>
<div
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data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
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<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div><span
style="font-size:12.8px">Dan
Fink</span>
<div
style="font-size:12.8px">Professor
of Solar Energy
Technology, Ecotech
Institute</div>
<div
style="font-size:12.8px">IREC
Certified
Instructor\u2122 for: </div>
<div
style="font-size:12.8px">~
PV Installation
Professional</div>
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style="font-size:12.8px">~
Small Wind Installer</div>
<div
style="font-size:12.8px">Executive
Director, Buckville
Energy</div>
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style="font-size:12.8px">NABCEP
Registered
Continuing Education
Providers\u2122</div>
<div
style="font-size:12.8px">NABCEP
Associate</div>
<div
style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
<a
value="+19706724342"
style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" moz-do-not-send="true">970.672.4342</a></div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
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<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at
11:32 AM, Ray <span dir="ltr"><<a
href="mailto:ray@solarray.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">ray@solarray.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p>Midnite has some string level and module
level 690.12 disconnects that wire in like
an optimizer or micro inverter, so those
should be able to meet the 2019
requirements. However beware: they as of
yet still don't have a reasonable
disconnect system to disconnect the charge
controller which has capacitors that back
feed the PV line for up to 90 seconds.
They have a DC GFI breaker with remote
trip capability but it takes 4 spaces, so
with multiple charge controllers it turns
into a wiring mess really fast. <br>
</p>
<p>I actually wired in some 60 amp rated
diodes on one system to get it to pass
inspection; what a joke, going back to
1980s equipment to pass 2017 code.
690.12 is an absolute nightmare for small
off grid. There really should be some
exemptions for small arrays (under 3 kW)
and under 100 vdc. Fire fighters are not
going to get there till the structure is
down anyway, Response times are up to an
hour for remote locations with volunteer
fire departments. Its not like in town at
all; no one is going to go on the roof on
an off grid fire.</p>
<p>On the flip side, there are real dangers
created by nuisance tripping of 690.12
equipment. Again, on grid it's a mere
inconvenience, but off grid it could mean
spoiled food, frozen water lines, shut
down heating systems in subzero
temperatures, and for the elderly: loss of
their breathing machines. I've already
had a 74 year old customer climbing on
their roof multiple times to reset the
Rapid shutdown equipment after nuisance
trips. Are we going to wait until we get
someone killed in the name of "Safety"
before we fix this? <br>
</p>
<pre class="m_-7344949816968868575m_4882979399566407304m_3426889623694695176moz-signature" cols="72">Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760</pre>
<div>
<div
class="m_-7344949816968868575m_4882979399566407304h5">
<div
class="m_-7344949816968868575m_4882979399566407304m_3426889623694695176moz-cite-prefix">On
7/6/18 9:55 AM, cwarfel wrote:<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div
class="m_-7344949816968868575m_4882979399566407304h5">
<p><font face="Verdana">I <font
face="Verdana">am wondering
about the <font face="Verdana">experience
installers have with a DC
coupled multimode <font
face="Verdana">system design
that w<font face="Verdana">ill
comply </font></font></font></font></font><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana">after
<font
face="Verdana">January
1 </font></font></font></font></font></font></font>with
what <font face="Verdana">I
feel is t<font
face="Verdana">he
biggest mistake/poorly
guided part of NEC 201<font
face="Verdana">7 </font>690,
and t<font
face="Verdana">hat
is </font></font></font>690.<font
face="Verdana">12<font
face="Verdana">. <font
face="Verdana">We
are install<font
face="Verdana">ing
two Ou<font
face="Verdana">tback
<font
face="Verdana">s<font
face="Verdana">ystems
with the rem<font
face="Verdana">ote
c<font
face="Verdana">ontrolle<font
face="Verdana">d
combiner and
even that w<font
face="Verdana">on't
comply after
January 1
unless we <font
face="Verdana">parallel
more subarrays
(There's
safety for
you, <font
face="Verdana">lower
voltage<font
face="Verdana">-hi<font
face="Verdana">gher
ampe<font
face="Verdana">rage!).
Thanks for any
insight. <br>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
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face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
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face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana">Chris</font><br>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
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face="Verdana"><font
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face="Verdana"><font
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</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana"><font
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face="Verdana"><font
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</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></p>
<p><br>
</p>
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