<div dir="ltr">My opinion is that CMP4 did what they did with 690.12 from the very beginning in 2014 because the vast majority of PV systems are direct grid-tie in the city or suburbs. Off-grid systems......us one-percenters who live and do solar in remote areas..... we are not even on their radar.<div><br></div><div>Just to beat that dead horse again that myself and Ray and others have hit for so long, if the regulations and therefore costs get too prohibitive, our customers creatively seek ways to avoid them. A RS shutdown system that costs a customer more than the 3-4 PV modules and racking is likely a no-go on their checkbook.</div><div><br></div><div>Example from long ago....1989 NFPA 74 required all smoke detectors to be interconnected, so that if one sounded an alarm, all the others did. Actually a good idea. But off the grid in small systems, those smoke detectors are 120VAC and keep the inverter awake, out of sleep (search) mode 24/7/365, for a little hunting cabin that's only occupied a couple months out of the year. Only the mice and packrats would hear the alarm.</div><div><br></div><div>SO......they install those 120VAC interconnected smoke detectors to get their CO, then after the inspector leaves they immediately rip them out and sell for salvage, stub off the 120VAC wiring so the inverter will sleep when they are away, and install battery smoke detectors.</div><div><br></div><div>I'm not judging or admitting anything......I'm observing what goes on in the real off-grid world. It ain't the big city, that's for sure.</div><div><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><span style="font-size:12.8px">Dan Fink</span><div style="font-size:12.8px">Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute</div><div style="font-size:12.8px">IREC Certified Instructor\u2122 for: </div><div style="font-size:12.8px">~ PV Installation Professional</div><div style="font-size:12.8px">~ Small Wind Installer</div><div style="font-size:12.8px">Executive Director, Buckville Energy</div><div style="font-size:12.8px">NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers\u2122</div><div style="font-size:12.8px">NABCEP Associate</div><div style="font-size:12.8px"><br><a value="+19706724342" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)">970.672.4342</a></div><br> </div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 12:11 PM, cwarfel <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:cwarfel@entech-engineering.com" target="_blank">cwarfel@entech-engineering.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p><font face="Verdana">Thanks Ray, I am sure the moderator will let
me know if th<font face="Verdana">is is off topic, but I would
be willing to help organize a petition drive to repeal th<font face="Verdana">is part of the NEC and because there are good
reasons. Not because it's "inconvenient". <font face="Verdana">Long time manufactu<font face="Verdana">rers<font face="Verdana">, who <font face="Verdana">historically
produce<font face="Verdana">d safe and high quality
product(s) </font></font></font>are be<font face="Verdana">ing harmed by this language, which in
turn, be<font face="Verdana">nefi<font face="Verdana">ted
others. Safety is not necessarily i<font face="Verdana">ncreased<font face="Verdana">. I
feel CMP 4 got hijacked focusing on <font face="Verdana">this issue. There <font face="Verdana">has been <font face="Verdana">good reo<font face="Verdana">rganization and
integration of <font face="Verdana">690
with other Articles, b<font face="Verdana">ut R<font face="Verdana">S is not
reflective of this effort. Just
the labeling re<font face="Verdana">quirements show
that<font face="Verdana">. </font></font><br>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana">There is a lot
of <font face="Verdana">focus
on resiliency and the NEC <font face="Verdana">incr<font face="Verdana">eased t<font face="Verdana">he cost
and did<font face="Verdana"> not
i<font face="Verdana">m<font face="Verdana">prove<font face="Verdana">
the safety of
<font face="Verdana">DC
coupled
multimode
systems. So
in<font face="Verdana">s<font face="Verdana">tead
of
incorporating
<font face="Verdana">the
roof resource
that </font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font>could
be used to meet resil<font face="Verdana">i<font face="Verdana">ency goals,
we are taking <font face="Verdana">roofs out
of some design
considerations<font face="Verdana">, and
increas<font face="Verdana">ing the
costs for the other
options. </font></font></font></font></font><br>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana">Chris</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font><br>
</p><div><div class="h5">
<br>
<div class="m_4327583408331504535moz-cite-prefix">On 7/6/2018 1:32 PM, Ray wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p>Midnite has some string level and module level 690.12
disconnects that wire in like an optimizer or micro inverter, so
those should be able to meet the 2019 requirements. However
beware: they as of yet still don't have a reasonable disconnect
system to disconnect the charge controller which has capacitors
that back feed the PV line for up to 90 seconds. They have a DC
GFI breaker with remote trip capability but it takes 4 spaces,
so with multiple charge controllers it turns into a wiring mess
really fast. <br>
</p>
<p>I actually wired in some 60 amp rated diodes on one system to
get it to pass inspection; what a joke, going back to 1980s
equipment to pass 2017 code. 690.12 is an absolute nightmare
for small off grid. There really should be some exemptions for
small arrays (under 3 kW) and under 100 vdc. Fire fighters are
not going to get there till the structure is down anyway,
Response times are up to an hour for remote locations with
volunteer fire departments. Its not like in town at all; no
one is going to go on the roof on an off grid fire.</p>
<p>On the flip side, there are real dangers created by nuisance
tripping of 690.12 equipment. Again, on grid it's a mere
inconvenience, but off grid it could mean spoiled food, frozen
water lines, shut down heating systems in subzero temperatures,
and for the elderly: loss of their breathing machines. I've
already had a 74 year old customer climbing on their roof
multiple times to reset the Rapid shutdown equipment after
nuisance trips. Are we going to wait until we get someone
killed in the name of "Safety" before we fix this? <br>
</p>
<pre class="m_4327583408331504535moz-signature" cols="72">Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760</pre>
<div class="m_4327583408331504535moz-cite-prefix">On 7/6/18 9:55 AM, cwarfel wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p><font face="Verdana">I <font face="Verdana">am wondering
about the <font face="Verdana">experience installers have
with a DC coupled multimode <font face="Verdana">system
design that w<font face="Verdana">ill comply </font></font></font></font></font><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana">after
<font face="Verdana">January 1 </font></font></font></font></font></font></font>with
what <font face="Verdana">I feel is t<font face="Verdana">he biggest mistake/poorly guided
part of NEC 201<font face="Verdana">7 </font>690,
and t<font face="Verdana">hat is </font></font></font>690.<font face="Verdana">12<font face="Verdana">. <font face="Verdana">We are install<font face="Verdana">ing two Ou<font face="Verdana">tback <font face="Verdana">s<font face="Verdana">ystems with the rem<font face="Verdana">ote c<font face="Verdana">ontrolle<font face="Verdana">d combiner and
even that w<font face="Verdana">on't
comply after January 1 unless
we <font face="Verdana">parallel
more subarrays (There's
safety for you, <font face="Verdana">lower
voltage<font face="Verdana">-hi<font face="Verdana">gher
ampe<font face="Verdana">rage!).
Thanks for any
insight. <br>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana">Chris</font><br>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><br>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><br>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></p>
<p><br>
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