<div dir="ltr">Hi Ray and Dan and Chris, etc, <div><br><div>I agree with a lot of what you are saying, don't get me wrong...I have an off-grid house too and I've been worrying about how module level shutdown will be implemented and what it means for reliability and cost, especially dc-coupled battery-based systems that really don't have or need MLPE.</div><div><br></div><div>I'm working on article for the Sept/Oct Homepower about rapid shutdown and one the things I've been excited to learn about is the new Sunspec alliance <a href="https://www.solarpowerworldonline.com/2017/10/communicating-get-job-done-inverters-sunspecs-rapid-shutdown-standard/">power line communication protocol</a> for receivers and transmitters for RS. As Ray mentioned Midnite is already selling their <a href="http://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=671&productCatName=Software&productCat_ID=44&sortOrder=1&act=p">SOB</a> (er, haha). And Tigo just got their cheapest RS <a href="https://www.tigoenergy.com/library/view/TS4-F+-+Fire+Safety.pdf/">MLPE option the TSF-F UL</a> listed. What's cool is the devices are inverter-agnostic, and don't need another conductor for data or power running to them. But as Ray also said, they aren't working with charge controllers, yet. </div><div><br></div><div>So I do think there is some good news on the horizon! From the way the 2020 NEC first draft is written, I don't perceive any chance of the 690.12 rules really changing drastically. But something else that may change the products we can use to meet the requirements is a new UL standard that is being worked on- UL 3741 PV Hazard control. I don't know much about it, but here is a <a href="https://csds.ul.com/Include/ViewRoster.aspx?GroupID=1782&stpNumber=3741">list of the people</a> who are on the Standards Technical Panel. I think a few of them are on this listserv so maybe one of them will give us an update!</div><div><br>Best, </div><div>Rebekah</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 4:39 PM Ray <<a href="mailto:ray@solarray.com">ray@solarray.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="m_-7344949816968868575moz-forward-container"><br>
<br>
-------- Forwarded Message --------
<table class="m_-7344949816968868575moz-email-headers-table" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<th valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT" nowrap>Subject:
</th>
<td>Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown and January 1 2019
option?</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT" nowrap>Date: </th>
<td>Fri, 6 Jul 2018 16:37:47 -0600</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT" nowrap>From: </th>
<td>Ray <a class="m_-7344949816968868575moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ray@solarray.com" target="_blank"><ray@solarray.com></a></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT" nowrap>To: </th>
<td>Rebekah Hren <a class="m_-7344949816968868575moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rebekah.hren@gmail.com" target="_blank"><rebekah.hren@gmail.com></a></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
<br>
<p>Hi Rebekah;</p>
<p>I very much appreciated your previous posts on this. Yes, we do
not need to disconnect the inverter and battery per previous
interpretations. However, the RS system can and will trip for a
variety of reasons, which disconnects the charging system. It
might take a couple of days to discharge the batteries, but the
results are the same: rotten meat in the fridge and a dead
battery. If no one is home, thousands of dollars of battery
could be ruined in a matter of weeks, if its Gel or AGM. <br>
</p>
<p>If we get to a point where all the modules have shut down built
in, and the Controllers also have built in disconnect so their
capacitors don't back feed, then it won't be so hard to comply
with 690.12. In the mean time though, off grid should be given
a clear exemption based on array size and Voc of the array. We
are often only wiring 2 modules in series, so we are already
well below 100 v. Rules designed for 600 v arrays should not
unilaterally apply to everyone, just as 600 VAC rules don't all
apply to 120 vac residential. There are numerous exemptions for
lower voltage AC situations, we are just asking that the same
thinking be applied to PV.<br>
</p>
<pre class="m_-7344949816968868575moz-signature" cols="72">Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760</pre>
<div class="m_-7344949816968868575moz-cite-prefix">On 7/6/18 2:57 PM, Rebekah Hren
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">I believe there was a big improvement for
off-grid systems as relates to RS in the 2017 NEC - the
diagrams in 690.1(b) all show the PV system disconnect clearly
now. If you check out the diagrams you can see that energy
storage/battery circuits, including the battery-based inverter
whether AC or DC coupled, are outside the PV system boundary,
thus not PV system circuits, thus not subject to RS.
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Also, th<a href="https://downloads.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/all-codes-and-standards/list-of-codes-and-standards/detail?code=70&tab=nextedition" target="_blank">e NEC 2020 1st draft report has
been published</a>, so get your comments submitted! </div>
<div><br>
<div>Rebekah Hren</div>
<div>Member, NEC CMP-4</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 2:22 PM Dan Fink <<a href="mailto:danbob88@gmail.com" target="_blank">danbob88@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">I agree with you, Ray, as a purely off-grid
solar installer and troubleshooter. I think all that was
accomplished in NEC 2017 on this issue is that
non-habitable structures, like the common off-grid 'power
shed' don't need 690.12 RS anymore. </div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
<div>
<div class="m_-7344949816968868575m_4882979399566407304gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">Dan
Fink</span>
<div style="font-size:12.8px">Professor
of Solar Energy Technology,
Ecotech Institute</div>
<div style="font-size:12.8px">IREC
Certified Instructor\u2122 for: </div>
<div style="font-size:12.8px">~
PV Installation Professional</div>
<div style="font-size:12.8px">~
Small Wind Installer</div>
<div style="font-size:12.8px">Executive
Director, Buckville Energy</div>
<div style="font-size:12.8px">NABCEP
Registered Continuing
Education Providers\u2122</div>
<div style="font-size:12.8px">NABCEP
Associate</div>
<div style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
<a value="+19706724342" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)">970.672.4342</a></div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 11:32 AM,
Ray <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ray@solarray.com" target="_blank">ray@solarray.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p>Midnite has some string level and module level
690.12 disconnects that wire in like an optimizer
or micro inverter, so those should be able to meet
the 2019 requirements. However beware: they as
of yet still don't have a reasonable disconnect
system to disconnect the charge controller which
has capacitors that back feed the PV line for up
to 90 seconds. They have a DC GFI breaker with
remote trip capability but it takes 4 spaces, so
with multiple charge controllers it turns into a
wiring mess really fast. <br>
</p>
<p>I actually wired in some 60 amp rated diodes on
one system to get it to pass inspection; what a
joke, going back to 1980s equipment to pass 2017
code. 690.12 is an absolute nightmare for small
off grid. There really should be some exemptions
for small arrays (under 3 kW) and under 100 vdc.
Fire fighters are not going to get there till the
structure is down anyway, Response times are up
to an hour for remote locations with volunteer
fire departments. Its not like in town at all;
no one is going to go on the roof on an off grid
fire.</p>
<p>On the flip side, there are real dangers created
by nuisance tripping of 690.12 equipment. Again,
on grid it's a mere inconvenience, but off grid it
could mean spoiled food, frozen water lines, shut
down heating systems in subzero temperatures, and
for the elderly: loss of their breathing
machines. I've already had a 74 year old customer
climbing on their roof multiple times to reset the
Rapid shutdown equipment after nuisance trips.
Are we going to wait until we get someone killed
in the name of "Safety" before we fix this? <br>
</p>
<pre class="m_-7344949816968868575m_4882979399566407304m_3426889623694695176moz-signature" cols="72">Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760</pre>
<div>
<div class="m_-7344949816968868575m_4882979399566407304h5">
<div class="m_-7344949816968868575m_4882979399566407304m_3426889623694695176moz-cite-prefix">On
7/6/18 9:55 AM, cwarfel wrote:<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div class="m_-7344949816968868575m_4882979399566407304h5">
<p><font face="Verdana">I <font face="Verdana">am wondering about the <font face="Verdana">experience installers
have with a DC coupled multimode <font face="Verdana">system design that w<font face="Verdana">ill comply </font></font></font></font></font><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana">after <font face="Verdana">January
1 </font></font></font></font></font></font></font>with
what <font face="Verdana">I feel
is t<font face="Verdana">he
biggest mistake/poorly guided
part of NEC 201<font face="Verdana">7 </font>690,
and t<font face="Verdana">hat
is </font></font></font>690.<font face="Verdana">12<font face="Verdana">. <font face="Verdana">We are
install<font face="Verdana">ing
two Ou<font face="Verdana">tback
<font face="Verdana">s<font face="Verdana">ystems
with the rem<font face="Verdana">ote
c<font face="Verdana">ontrolle<font face="Verdana">d
combiner and
even that w<font face="Verdana">on't
comply after
January 1
unless we <font face="Verdana">parallel
more subarrays
(There's
safety for
you, <font face="Verdana">lower
voltage<font face="Verdana">-hi<font face="Verdana">gher
ampe<font face="Verdana">rage!).
Thanks for any
insight. <br>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana">Chris</font><br>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><br>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana"><br>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="m_-7344949816968868575m_4882979399566407304m_3426889623694695176moz-signature">--
<br>
<div class="m_-7344949816968868575m_4882979399566407304m_3426889623694695176moz-signature"><br>
<div class="m_-7344949816968868575m_4882979399566407304m_3426889623694695176moz-signature">
<div class="m_-7344949816968868575m_4882979399566407304m_3426889623694695176moz-signature">
<div class="m_-7344949816968868575m_4882979399566407304m_3426889623694695176moz-signature">
<div class="m_-7344949816968868575m_4882979399566407304m_3426889623694695176moz-signature">
<div class="m_-7344949816968868575m_4882979399566407304m_3426889623694695176moz-signature">
<div class="m_-7344949816968868575m_4882979399566407304m_3426889623694695176moz-signature">
<font size="-1">
Christopher Warfel, PE<br>
ENTECH Engineering,
Inc.<br>
PO Box 871, Block Island, RI
02807<br>
(401)466-8978</font><br>
<div class="m_-7344949816968868575m_4882979399566407304m_3426889623694695176moz-signature"> <br>
<a href="http://entech-engineering.com" target="_blank"><img alt="EEI logo" width="201" height="89" border="0"></a> </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="m_-7344949816968868575m_4882979399566407304m_3426889623694695176mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
</div>
</div>
<pre>_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
List Address: <a class="m_-7344949816968868575m_4882979399566407304m_3426889623694695176moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
Change listserver email address & settings:
<a class="m_-7344949816968868575m_4882979399566407304m_3426889623694695176moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a>
List-Archive: <a class="m_-7344949816968868575m_4882979399566407304m_3426889623694695176moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html" target="_blank">http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html</a>
List rules & etiquette:
<a class="m_-7344949816968868575m_4882979399566407304m_3426889623694695176moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm" target="_blank">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a>
Check out or update participant bios:
<a class="m_-7344949816968868575m_4882979399566407304m_3426889623694695176moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance<br>
<br>
List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
Change listserver email address & settings:<br>
<a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
List-Archive: <a href="http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html</a><br>
<br>
List rules & etiquette:<br>
<a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br>
<br>
Check out or update participant bios:<br>
<a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance<br>
<br>
List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
Change listserver email address & settings:<br>
<a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
List-Archive: <a href="http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html</a><br>
<br>
List rules & etiquette:<br>
<a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br>
<br>
Check out or update participant bios:<br>
<a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div dir="ltr" class="m_-7344949816968868575gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">Tel: 336.266.8800<br>
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional\u2122
091209-85<br>
NC Licensed Electrical Contractor</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="m_-7344949816968868575mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre>_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
List Address: <a class="m_-7344949816968868575moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
Change listserver email address & settings:
<a class="m_-7344949816968868575moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a>
List-Archive: <a class="m_-7344949816968868575moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html" target="_blank">http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html</a>
List rules & etiquette:
<a class="m_-7344949816968868575moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm" target="_blank">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a>
Check out or update participant bios:
<a class="m_-7344949816968868575moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance<br>
<br>
List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
Change listserver email address & settings:<br>
<a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
List-Archive: <a href="http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html</a><br>
<br>
List rules & etiquette:<br>
<a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br>
<br>
Check out or update participant bios:<br>
<a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr">Tel: 336.266.8800<br>NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional\u2122 091209-85<br>NC Licensed Electrical Contractor</div></div>