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<p>Many installers and customers seem over occupied with sulfation
from under charging, but I actually think over heating is the not
so silent killer we really need to be worrying about. I've had
severely undercharged, but cool batteries last much longer than
they should, and I have seen over insulated, over heated batteries
die a messy acid soaked death. <br>
</p>
<p>I've also seen an AGM with C100 charge rate (trickle charge
right?) climb to 16 v, and start gassing as Steve mentioned. If I
had added some insulation around the battery and left it long
enough, I think we would have had the same melt down. <br>
</p>
<p>Also Steve's comments on the BTS are very important. Temp
Compensation can do more harm than good, if the BTS is damaged or
not installed in the right location. I only recommend BTS, if the
room temperature is going to vary more than 30 deg F. I've seen
all sorts of odd behavior over the years, that was cured by
disconnecting the BTS.<br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760</pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/10/18 5:47 PM, Steve Higgins
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAF7Owm_HX56vdxyuCZJ+OeZpnkd47YODja_rhXmsxwGt_TLw8w@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">Hey Guys, just throwing this out there... I know
these weren't mine (Rolls) but I've seen this happen and in 99%
of the cases it's excessive heat. <br>
<br>
AGM's typically don't enter thermal runaway, like the older 90's
and 00's Gels did... <br>
<br>
I asked earlier about the temp sensors, on these they should be
mounted about 1/2 way down on one of the long sides. The side
mount sensors are best as the temp variance between the side and
the top terminal can be as much as 20 degrees... this is going
to cause over charging, and thus too much heat every time.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Here is a FLIR shot of a battery bank while under charge:<br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><img src="cid:part1.EE3B5829.DF1C5ECF@solarray.com"
style="margin-right: 0px;" class="" width="385"
height="296"></div>
<div><br>
You can see the difference in the temps between the posts,
and the side of the battery bank. </div>
</div>
<div>Most battery companies will tell you that side mounted
sensors, in the warmest location of the bank is where you want
your BTS. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Another issue with these, for for that matter any VRLA
battery is gassing. When they are charging, even in a 55F
room they will get warm, typically in Bulk/Absorb about 20-25F
higher, in hot (Above 77F) environment this often can be as
high as 90-120F. when this happens the valves on the battery
"burp". If you have tie down straps going across the top of
the battery this will restrict the valve from opening, thus
ballooning out the chassis or jar. In this case it's better
to lay them on their long, or short sides, than to let them
stand vertically. <br>
<br>
AGM's and GEL's will gas, especially when heated above 77F,
when you are charging is when most of that heat is going to
build up. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Last but no least spacing between the batteries is
important, it's a good idea to have 1-2 inches of space
between them at all times.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Had a case recently that I did a site visit on battery bank
on a boat in Florida. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>All the batteries (8) boiled out and cooked... same type of
damage. When I got to the site all the batteries had severe
heating damage to the plates. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Upon inspection of the programming I found that the Float
set point was set to the Absorb Voltage, and the BTS has been
eaten by a animal of some sort... When that occurred it
shorted the BTS on the inverter making the inverter think that
the battery temp was -2C... this caused the Inverter to charge
at over 31 volts for 3 months before the owner found the
battery and had cooked... </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><img src="cid:part2.CA9445E5.ABBB0837@solarray.com"
style="margin-right: 0px;" class="" width="290" height="93"><br>
<br>
</div>
<div><img src="cid:part3.064CB6AF.44F3886A@solarray.com"
style="margin-right: 0px;" class="" width="288" height="96"></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Just saying... when this happens it's often a battery temp
issue, and not a battery issue... and yes, I would have said
that even if I didn't work for a battery manufacture. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
<div>
<div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div style="float:left;padding:1px 10px 0 0"><a
href="http://www.rollsbattery.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><img
src="https://i.imgur.com/uXcqgyz.png" alt=""
style="padding:3px 0px 0px
10px;float:left;margin-right:10px;width:98px;height:115px"
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color="#bb1a1d">Steve Higgins \u22c5 </font><span
style="color:rgb(64,64,64);font-size:12px">Technical
Services Manager</span> </div>
<div
style="font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:bold;font-stretch:normal;font-size:12px;line-height:20px;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;margin:0px"><font
color="#bb1a1d"> t</font><span
style="color:rgb(184,39,106)"> <span
style="font-weight:normal;color:#404040">+1.902.597.4020</span> </span><font
color="#bb1a1d">m</font> <span
style="color:rgb(64,64,64);font-weight:normal">+1.206.790.5840</span></div>
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style="font-weight:bold" color="#cf1d0c"> </font>+1.902.597.8447
<font style="font-size:12px;font-weight:bold"
color="#bb1a1d">e</font><span style="font-size:12px">
</span><span style="font-size:12px"><a
href="mailto:steve@surrette.com"
style="color:rgb(64,64,64);text-decoration:none"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">steve@surrette.com</a></span></div>
<div style="padding-top:8px"> <a
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<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 4:18 PM,
Michael Morningstar <span dir="ltr"><<a
href="mailto:mjmorningstar@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">mjmorningstar@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">The picture shows a group
of new Fullriver batteries destined for a different site,
and the ruined Crown\u2019s I had just pulled out. They are
sitting in the back of my truck. Batteries were in a
basement that stays 55F year round. Temp sensors for both
the Magnum inverter and Midnite Classic 150. Small
array(600 watts). 2/0 cables. Absorb time 1.5 hours.
Factory recommended charging parameters. Tight
connections. My first thermal runaway after hundreds and
hundreds of battery bank installs too. My local
distributor has been pushing Crowns and their great
warranty so I reluctantly gave them a shot. Lead acids and
AGMs. I\u2019m not impressed with either. Nor their warranty
process.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I</div>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On May 10, 2018, at 3:49 PM, Rick Brown
<<a
href="mailto:rick@solshineenergyalternatives.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">rick@<wbr>solshineenergyalternatives.com</a><wbr>>
wrote:</div>
<br
class="m_700592226324988763Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div dir="auto">I\u2019m inclined to agree with
Maverick. Mixing old and new batteries is
not recommended. Differing internal
resistance coupled with potentially extreme
temps can lead to thermal runaway. <br>
<br>
<div><span
style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">rick
brown<br>
SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC<br>
Electrical & Solar Contracting
Services<br>
<a dir="ltr"
href="http://www.solshineenergyalternatives.com/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">www.<wbr>SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com</a><br>
Check, Virginia 24072<br>
<a dir="ltr" href="tel:540.808.9502"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">540.808.9502</a><br>
<br>
VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660<br>
VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762<br>
VA Alternative Energy Systems
Installer <br>
NABCEP Certified PV Installation
Professional 110112-21</span></div>
<div><br>
On May 10, 2018, at 6:02 PM, "<a
href="mailto:maverick@mavericksolar.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">maverick@mavericksolar.com</a>"
<<a
href="mailto:maverick@mavericksolar.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">maverick@mavericksolar.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>Looks like a mix of old and new
Batteries in a cabinet too small to
drain excessive heat gain. Was the
cabinet shaded? Or exposed to direct
sun? Temp sensor on charging source?
<div>What size interconnect cables were
used? </div>
<div>Was it a bus system? </div>
<div>Absorb with End Amps was turned on?<br>
<br>
<div>Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div><br>
On May 10, 2018, at 4:41 PM, Michael
Morningstar <<a
href="mailto:mjmorningstar@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">mjmorningstar@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div><image1.jpeg></div>
<div>One year old. Well looked
after system. <br>
On May 10, 2018, at 1:42 PM,
Starlight Solar Power Systems
<<a
href="mailto:larry@starlightsolar.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">larry@starlightsolar.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>Wrenches,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Attached is a photo of my
first thermal runaway event
after 17 years and thousands
of battery systems
installed. These were in an
RV. I checked every charge
source and all are within
specified charging
parameters. No cause found.
The owner is a single
elderly lady that uses very
little power in her RV and
spend most of the time on
shore power. She reported
that the batteries were dead
when she unplugged from
shore power. This was i the
23rd month after
installation. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>After I reported this to
my Fullriver distributor,
they told me that another
set of DC400-6 had melted
down just 1 month earlier
and that they had fused
together just like these.
That is extreme heat. It is
too peculiar to know of two
similar events. This
meltdown happened within the
2 year warranty period but
my customer could not come
back to us for another 3
months beyond the warranty
period. Fullriver would not
allow anything towards
replacement do to the
reporting date being grater
than 24 months.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I would like to know has
anyone else had a similar
failure with Rolls or
Fullriver AGM batteries,
specifically L16 size.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
<div
style="letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
<div
style="letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
<div><span>Thank
you,</span><br>
<br>
<span>Larry
Crutcher</span><br>
<span>Starlight
Solar Power
Systems</span><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br
class="m_700592226324988763Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br
class="m_700592226324988763Apple-interchange-newline"
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<br
class="m_700592226324988763Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<IMG_0627.jpeg></div>
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