<div dir="ltr">Hi Ray,<div>The stand-alone diagram calls out the PV system disconnect right after the PV system DC circuits and prior to the point of common coupling with the batteries and the stand-alone inverter. Yes, you are correct a controller or DC to DC converter is not shown in the this diagram or the dc-coupled diagram.</div><div><br></div><div>The reason the charge controller is not called out in the diagram is because it can be on either side of the PV system disconnect, depending on the topology of the system. For example, a controller connected to a DC bus with multiple power sources that would still be operational if the PV system is disconnected would be outside the PV system disconnect demarcation. If the controller serves no purpose when the PV system is disconnected, then it makes sense to have the charge controller output circuit be the location of the PV system disconnect. </div><div><br></div><div>One way to think about this is what happens when you open (turn off) the PV system disconnect. So for example a multimode inverter doesn't care if the PV system disco is open, it will just keep on doing its job, pulling power from the batteries and providing power to the loads. If the charge controller can't keep doing its job with no PV power source, then it really belongs to the PV system. Maybe this seems silly, but as particularly energy storage systems and microgrids get more complicated, it doesn't always make sense to have hard and fast rules about what equipment belongs to which system. </div><div><br></div><div>I realize this makes rapid shutdown more confusing. But for a DC-coupled stand-alone system it seems the major question here is whether the RS shutdown switch (or switches) control the circuits before or after the charge controller. For most typical small systems, I would say probably after the controller, but I think this is open to some debate. </div><div><br></div><div>The rules for locating a DC PV system disconnect are found in 690.13 - it really just has to be readily accessible. It may or may not also serve the purpose of the rapid shutdown initiation switch, that's up to you as the system designer. </div><div><br></div><div>Best, </div><div>Rebekah</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 12:56 AM, Ray <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ray@solarray.com" target="_blank">ray@solarray.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p>Hi Rebekah;</p>
<p>Thanks for pointing out the changes to the diagrams. I
especially appreciate Note (2). <i>The PV system disconnect in
these diagrams separates the PV system from all other systems.</i><br>
</p>
That seems simple enough for defining the boundaries of RSS, until
you think about off grid, and look at the last diagram of 690.1(b)
titled "Stand Alone System". The charge controller is not shown at
all. Then Figure 690.1(a) shows a <i>DC to DC Converter (optional
location)</i>, shows a fuse after, shows the power going with an
arrow to no where, on a line labeled <i>PV or DC to DC converter
output circuit.....</i> But finally, the cause of my greatest
confusion: it does not show the <b>PV System Disconnect</b>
anywhere.<br>
<br>
I have several questions:<br>
Is a charge controller a <b>DC to DC converter</b>? What about non
MPPT controllers that don't convert voltage?<br>
Is a charge controller considered <b>DC</b> <b>utilization
Equipment</b> mentioned in the definition of <b>PV Output Circuit</b>,
or is the inverter and DC loads the utilization equipment?<br>
All of which leads to the $20 thousand dollar question: Is the <b>PV
System Disconnect</b> before or after the charge controller? <br>
If before the charge controller, where can the PV Disconnect be?
Could it be outside, at the pole, or does it need to be within 3 ft
of the building entry?<br>
<br>
Even with all the changes made in 2017, it seems that we still are
left with too much uncertainty about where a PV circuit ends, or
what constitutes the "PV Disconnect" in an off grid system. Not
such a big deal, until we are required to apply 690.12. <br>
<br>
Thanks everyone for your answers and opinions,<br>
<br>
Ray Walters<br>
Design Engineer<br>
Remote Solar<div><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<div class="m_1048394598158306386moz-cite-prefix">On 4/17/18 7:15 AM, Rebekah Hren wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Hi everyone,
<div><br>
<div>I strongly recommend looking at the figures that were
added in NEC 2017 at the beginning of Article 690 in
690.1(b). </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>What they show is equipment that is part of the PV system
(to the left of the PV system disconnect called out in the
diagrams), and equipment that is not part of the PV system
(to the right of the PV system disconnect). These are really
helpful diagrams, in terms of figuring out where the
requirements of Article 690 apply.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Equipment <b>not</b> part of the PV system is not a "PV
system circuit" and thus is <b>not</b> subject to rapid
shutdown requirements per 690.12.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In every type of system you will see that energy storage
is <b>not </b>part of the PV system, and neither is the
multimode inverter for a system with energy storage. So
rapid shutdown requirements shouldn't affect any of the
loads, multimode inverter, or batteries in an off-grid
system. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In the 2017 NEC, the PV system disconnect, as shown on
the diagrams, is required to be readily accessible per
690.13(A). For a system without batteries, the PV system
disconnect is <b>always </b>an AC disconnect, not a DC
disconnect. <span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">It
can be the backfed breaker per 690.13(F)(1). </span>For a
system with batteries the PV system disconnect is always
before the batteries. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Equipment disconnects, like the DC inverter disconnect,
are not required to be readily accessible, but must be
within 10 feet of the equipment, per 690.15(A). </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Also note that the boundary for rapid shutdown shrank to
<b>one foot</b> from the perimeter of the array in the 2017
NEC, so the inverter must be positioned within one foot of
the array if there is not going to be any other RS
equipment. The PV system disconnect (backfed breaker) or the
service disconnect can serve as the rapid shutdown
initiation device in that case. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best, </div>
<div>Rebekah Hren, Member of NEC CMP-4 for Solar Energy
International</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">--<span> </span></span><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">
<div class="m_1048394598158306386m_-3297463944066289755gmail_signature" style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">
<div dir="ltr">Tel: 336.266.8800<br>
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional\u2122
091209-85<br>
NC Licensed Electrical Contractor</div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 9:00 PM,
Ray <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ray@solarray.com" target="_blank">ray@solarray.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p>For GT using Solar edge or Enphase, its not so hard
to comply, but If you are looking at off grid
systems, it's not just someone's opinion, its
$1,000s of dollars extra to comply with 690.12. It
also results in a system that is less reliable,
which is less safe off grid where lives depend on
that power for heat, light, refrigeration, and even
breathing machines.</p>
<p>Ray Walters</p>
<p>Remote Solar<br>
</p>
<div>
<div class="m_1048394598158306386m_-3297463944066289755h5"> <br>
<div class="m_1048394598158306386m_-3297463944066289755m_4267307128012263921moz-cite-prefix">On
4/16/18 7:44 AM, Brian Mehalic wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Hey y'all, I'm going to disagree
about the NEC getting "worse and worse when it
comes to PV," (see disconnect and grounding
requirements, for instance!), but as with
previous posters, that's just an opinion.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regarding location - the 2014 version had
very little to say about the location of any
rapid shutdown initiation device; 2017 adds
the requirement [690.12(C)] that RS
initiation devices for one- and two-family
dwellings be readily accessible (defined in
Article 100), AND outside the building.
Seems reasonable for a device that is
intended to control energized conductors to
make it more safe to enter a building. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Cheers,</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
<div>
<div class="m_1048394598158306386m_-3297463944066289755m_4267307128012263921gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Brian Mehalic <br>
NABCEP Certified Solar PV
Installation
Professional\u2122 R031508-59</div>
<div>520.204.6639<br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>Solar Energy
International<br>
<a href="http://www.solarenergy.org" target="_blank">http://www.solarenergy.org</a></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>SEI Professional Services</div>
<div><a href="http://www.seisolarpros.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:12.8px">http://www.s</span>eisolarpros.com</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Apr 16, 2018
at 12:04 AM, Mark Frye <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:markf@berkeleysolar.com" target="_blank">markf@berkeleysolar.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p>Thanks Darryl.</p>
<p>I guess I can add that I am in CA and
so looked only at the 2014. I also
looked at the 2017 article. Man, I
have to say, my impression remains
that really starting with 2008 the
code has just gotten worse and worse
when it comes to PV, but that is just
me.</p>
<p>Not really sure what might need to be
"Outside readily accessible". Is there
something other than 690.12 that I
need to look at?</p>
<span class="m_1048394598158306386m_-3297463944066289755m_4267307128012263921HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
<p>Mark</p>
</font></span>
<div>
<div class="m_1048394598158306386m_-3297463944066289755m_4267307128012263921h5">
<div class="m_1048394598158306386m_-3297463944066289755m_4267307128012263921m_-2330833750878756499moz-cite-prefix">On
4/15/2018 8:26 PM, Darryl Thayer
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">I think the code
says Outside readily
accessible, </div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sun,
Apr 15, 2018 at 12:22 PM, Mark
Frye <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:markf@berkeleysolar.com" target="_blank">markf@berkeleysolar.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Folks,<br>
<br>
As I recall, an inverter and
it's integrated DC
disconnect need only be
placed in an accessible
location. I am thinking of
putting an inverter high up
on the wall inside a garage.
That would be OK vis-a-vis
the location of the
disconnect (still accessible
for maintenance).<br>
<br>
If I do put the inverter
high up on the wall, I can
limit my DC conductors to
less that 10 feet total from
the array and less that 5
feet inside the garage.<br>
<br>
That means I get the
exemption from the rapid
disconnect requirement,
right?<br>
<br>
There is nothing in the Code
linking the accessibility of
the DC disconnect to the
exemption from rapid
shutdown, right?<br>
<br>
Mark Frye<br>
<br>
<br>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr">Tel: 336.266.8800<br>NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional\u2122 091209-85<br>NC Licensed Electrical Contractor</div></div>
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