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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;color:black'>At a couple of remote systems, I have housed the battery bank as follows.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;color:black'>It is not cheap [$2,000 for pump, controller, & collector, plus the slab] but works very well:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;color:black'>Flat plate Solar thermal collector installed at 60+°, pumped directly to a 6\u201d insulated slab dedicated to the battery bank or the power room slab. Well insulated slab is the key word here.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;color:black'>If you are interested contact me off list, it is a lengthy conversation & it helps if you have some radiant heat installation experience. I have a 900 sqft building floating at 46-54°F currently at 5,600 ft in South Central Idaho with no heat back up to the slab.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;color:black'>The temps would be higher if the collector orientation was more S-SW VS the SE orientation due to the canyon & building orientation. We floated our home in CO at 70-74° with the same system & a boiler backup.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;color:#002060'>----------------------------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;color:black'>Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc.</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;color:black'>C - 208.721.7003 dana@solarwork.com<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;color:black'>Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;color:black'>NABCEP # 051112-136 <a href="http://www.solarwork.biz"><span style='color:blue'>www.solarwork.biz</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><u><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;color:black'>"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" </span></u><u><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></u></p><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:Webdings;color:green'>P</span></b><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:navy'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:green'>Please consider the environment before printing this email.</span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b>From:</b> RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Ken Schaal<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 27, 2018 9:01 AM<br><b>To:</b> RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Have u considered, or is it possible, to set the batteries several ft. into the earth? 50 or so year round.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Works for livestock water, earth sheltered houses, caves.....<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>On Feb 27, 2018 10:29 AM, "Starlight Solar Power Systems" <<a href="mailto:larry@starlightsolar.com">larry@starlightsolar.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Hi Drake,<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>I agree. Li-ion batteries, like lead batteries, should always have a human overseer. This is a difficult reality to convey in our set-it-forget it, automated world.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>One function of a Li-ion battery EMS or BMS is to prevent over discharge. Once any battery cell reaches the lower limit, the battery will turn off. For many systems, once charge current is again detected, the battery will turn on. Some will not and require a user to turn the battery back on. You can also install an external LVD device to stop power use at a higher SoC. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>As wrenches, its our responsibility to know our product and educate the customer. Too often, this does not happen.<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><br>Larry Crutcher<br>Starlight Solar Power Systems<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>On Feb 27, 2018, at 7:11 AM, <a href="mailto:drake.chamberlin@redwoodalliance.org" target="_blank">drake.chamberlin@redwoodalliance.org</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>Snow on the array could be a very big problem with the heater load, inverter idle current and anything else that might be left on. Extended periods of heavy clouds can reduce power generation to be less than system's internal losses. It seems like a pretty big gamble to leave an expensive battery bank unattended, that can not go below freezing, and is dependent on array power to prevent freezing. <br><br>If AGMs survive in this application, it might be better to stay with this technology. <br> <o:p></o:p></span></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><br>----- Original Message -----<o:p></o:p></span></p><div id="m_-1408615563803584515origionalMessageFromField"><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:#E4E4E4'><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>From:<o:p></o:p></span></b></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:#E4E4E4'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><a href="mailto:offgridsolar@sti.net" target="_blank">offgridsolar@sti.net</a> "RE-wrenches" <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div id="m_-1408615563803584515origionalMessageToField"><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>To:<o:p></o:p></span></b></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>"RE-wrenches" <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>><o:p></o:p></span></p><div id="m_-1408615563803584515origionalMessageSentField"><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>Cc:<o:p></o:p></span></b></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>Sent:<o:p></o:p></span></b></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>Mon, 26 Feb 2018 10:36:29 -0800 (PST)<o:p></o:p></span></p><div id="m_-1408615563803584515origionalMessageSubjectField"><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>Subject:<o:p></o:p></span></b></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>Re: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank<br><br><br>Hello Daniel,<br><br>I will give this some thought. What lithium make? The ones I have looked<br>at log the temperature for warranty so that might negate the value a bit.<br>The high temp is just as bad in your case here.<br><br>Since this has been working well I am assuming snow on the panels is not<br>an issue?<br><br>Building a battery box that was cooled (small fan) from conditioned space<br>is what I have done. The wall between the garage and living space is<br>perfect. This won't help when the house is cold (unattended) much. It<br>won't help if the house is allowed to get hot either.<br><br>Some of the Lion batteries are actually listed for living space. The LG<br>is. I don't do that with mine though. Hmmm<br><br>Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar<br>"we go where powerlines don't"<br><a href="http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/" target="_blank">http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/</a><br>e-mail <a href="mailto:offgridsolar@sti.net" target="_blank">offgridsolar@sti.net</a><br>text <a href="tel:(209)%20813-0060" target="_blank">209 813 0060</a><br><br>> Hello Wrenches, here is a fun one for you all.<br>><br>><br>><br>> The client you all helped me with earlier this year is now considering<br>> changing out their AGM off grid bank with a lithium battery bank before<br>> the<br>> next winter. I looked into this, as we have been eying the various lithium<br>> options for 2+yrs now, but not bit the bullet and really designed a bank<br>> into a system.<br>><br>><br>><br>> The main issue I am trying to consider is this. The cabin is not occupied<br>> during most of the winter, and the batteries are in the unconditioned, but<br>> attached, garage. They drain the plumbing system and shut off all breakers<br>> except the ones that power the internet, chest freezer, and security<br>> system.<br>> As such, the battery bank has routinely gotten below freezing, sometimes<br>> staying there for 1-2 weeks. This is not an issue with AGM's, within<br>> reason.<br>> The battery bank has never gotten below 20F over the last 2 winters, where<br>> the site has seen below zero temps for brief periods. But the AGMs likely<br>> produce more heat during a charge than lithium's, and they have<br>> significantly more thermal mass to ride through the really cold nights.<br>><br>><br>><br>> Lithium batteries, to the best of my knowledge, can be below freezing<br>> during<br>> storage. But to safely charge, they must be above 32F. So the thought was<br>> to<br>> provide an insulated battery box, and design in some small heating system<br>> that is set to 40-45F. The first thought was a low power fiberglass<br>> heating<br>> pad like is sometimes used for livestock to give them a slightly warmed<br>> place to lay down. Then tie that to a thermostat with a sensor on the<br>> battery bank. I would of course need to try to account for the extra load<br>> in<br>> the battery bank sizing. They array is more than is needed right now so I<br>> do<br>> not worry about it's ability to compensate when the sun is shining.<br>><br>><br>><br>> In theory this could be ok, but I worry about the summer. Will the<br>> insulated<br>> enclosure cause the opposite issue during the summer, the batteries<br>> getting<br>> too hot? I have seen the AGM bank go to 110F at one point in Aug 2016. But<br>> with the lower internal resistance of the lithium's, maybe this is less<br>> likely to be an issue. Do any of you wrenches have any experience with<br>> this<br>> unconditioned setup?<br>><br>><br>><br>> With Regards,<br>><br>><br>><br>> Daniel Young,<br>><br>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90<br>><br>> _______________________________________________<br>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance<br>><br>> List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br>><br>> Change listserver email address & settings:<br>> <a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br>><br>> List-Archive:<br>> <a href="http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html" target="_blank">http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html</a><br>><br>> List rules & etiquette:<br>> <a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm" target="_blank">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br>><br>> Check out or update participant bios:<br>> <a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><br>><br>><br><br><br>Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar<br>"we go where powerlines don't"<br><a href="http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/" target="_blank">http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/</a><br>e-mail <a href="mailto:offgridsolar@sti.net" target="_blank">offgridsolar@sti.net</a><br>text <a href="tel:(209)%20813-0060" target="_blank">209 813 0060</a><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance<br><br>List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>Change listserver email address & settings:<br><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List-Archive: <a href="http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html" target="_blank">http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html</a><br><br>List rules & etiquette:<br><a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm" target="_blank">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br><br>Check out or update participant bios:<br><a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'>_______________________________________________<br>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance<br><br>List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>Change listserver email address & settings:<br><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List-Archive: <a href="http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html" target="_blank">http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html</a><br><br>List rules & etiquette:<br><a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm" target="_blank">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br><br>Check out or update participant bios:<br><a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><br>_______________________________________________<br>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance<br><br>List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>Change listserver email address & settings:<br><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List-Archive: <a href="http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html" target="_blank">http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html</a><br><br>List rules & etiquette:<br><a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm" target="_blank">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br><br>Check out or update participant bios:<br><a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></div></div></body></html>