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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=white lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black'>KOHLERS RSA14 – 14 KW is the same I have to run and AC circuit to the gen to run a battery charger from the inverter. A 30 Watt PV module in the winter is not enough if it is cloudy for a week. The battery dies and has frozen. Again the control board is too much draw and does way too much.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:#002060'>----------------------------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black'>Dana Orzel <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black'>Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black'>E - dana@solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black'>O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black'>"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" </span><span style='font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:Webdings;color:green'>P</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:navy'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:green'>Please consider the environment before printing this email.</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'> RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Ray Walters<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 09, 2015 3:18 PM<br><b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>I used an Ecogen recently, and I liked many aspects of it. However the continuous draw of the on board electronics is just ridiculous for an off grid generator.<br>A 15 w solar module charging the start battery was barely able to keep up with the draw. Running AC off the inverter to the generator is also just another unnecessary 24/7 phantom load.<br>We may be 20 years into the future, but no one has built a generator that can hold a candle to the old water cooled, 1800 RPM Kohlers. Most of those are still in service, and had simple 2 wire start. The Ecogen's onboard computer is a serious design flaw IMO. We don't need the generator to "think" in an off grid system; we already have inverters that do a much better job of that. The generator just needs to start reliably when its called upon. <br>I would appreciate if someone with more experience with the Ecogens could explain why the on board electronics are good, or...... how to bypass them completely. <br>We had a great off grid generator solution 2 decades ago, and the closer today's manufacturers can get back to that, the better we and our customers will all be.<br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre>R.Ray Walters<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>CTO, Solarray, Inc<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Nabcep Certified PV Installer, <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Licensed Master Electrician<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Solar Design Engineer<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>303 505-8760<o:p></o:p></pre><div><p class=MsoNormal>On 4/9/2015 2:40 PM, Gary Willett wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Dana:<br><br>Take a look at the new Generac EcoGen 15kW that was purpose built for a renewable energy system* <br><i><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>* including an inverter, battery bank and alternative energy power source</span></i><br><br><span style='font-size:7.5pt'><a href="http://gens.lccdn.com/generaccorporate/media/library/content/all-products/generators/home-generators/ecogen-series/15kw-6103/0k8466-c-15kw-ecogen-hsb.pdf">http://gens.lccdn.com/generaccorporate/media/library/content/all-products/generators/home-generators/ecogen-series/15kw-6103/0k8466-c-15kw-ecogen-hsb.pdf</a><br></span><br>The 15kW EcoGen has the same footprint as the 6kW EcoGen (LP only) and is natural gas or LP gas capable. The generator has a constant frequency / variable speed AVR based on electrical demand. <br><br>Also, 500 run hours between oil changes. And a 3-year or 2000 hour warranty.<br><span style='font-size:7.5pt'><a href="http://gens.lccdn.com/generaccorporate/media/library/content/all-products/generators/home-generators/ecogen-series/ecogen-warranty-0j1629-revb.pdf">http://gens.lccdn.com/generaccorporate/media/library/content/all-products/generators/home-generators/ecogen-series/ecogen-warranty-0j1629-revb.pdf</a></span><br><br>Regards,<br><br>Gary Willett<br>Icarus Engineering & Solar Services LLC<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On 4/9/15 9:56 AM, Dana wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>I agree but full load charging usually only lasts but a few minutes as the inverter charge rate drops readily as voltage rises. 8300 watt -10,000 watts or 13000 watts the point is why we are installing air cooled throw away generators that run so fast & hot that they need to be replaced in 2,000 hours, not to mention the fuel consumed at 80 MPH?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>Is there a slow speed (1200-1800 rpm) water cooled 8-13 KW generator out there?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Dana Orzel <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>E - <a href="mailto:dana@solarwork.com">dana@solarwork.com</a> - Web - solarwork.com <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:Webdings;color:green'>P</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:navy'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:green'>Please consider the environment before printing this email.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Jerry Shafer [<a href="mailto:jerrysgarage01@gmail.com">mailto:jerrysgarage01@gmail.com</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 08, 2015 7:02 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:dana@solarwork.com">dana@solarwork.com</a>; RE-wrenches<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>We don't install anything smaller then a 13 k its air cooled but works well, as far as the numbers you have, Mine are somewhat different I use max potential load and max potential charge as when the batteries are low the genny must not only supply the home but also charge the bank back up at a reasonable rate, so if the loads are high and the genny only has enough to maintain that load then what about the batteries plus I only use 75% of the genny rating for optimum or improved duty cycle. This is only me and I am sure every shop has there own math. <o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal>Jerry <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Dana <<a href="mailto:dana@solarwork.com" target="_blank">dana@solarwork.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>Hey All – </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:14.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>I just got off of a phone call with my Onan generator supplier. Last conversation with Kohler was the same story basically.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:14.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>I was informed that their smallest water cooled generator, the RS22 (22 KW) is now no longer “rated “for off grid. They actually called me to confirm that this generator was for backup power to a utility inter connected house. Tier 4 generators in the EPA CFR 40 is the Federal code what covers this, & you are allowed 100 hours of run time for standby power and maintenance per year. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>Q - Why am I using ridiculous sized generators for something that an 82-8300 watt generator does just fine?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>A - The EPA current requirements, a shrinking economy, & manufacturers that have to meet very expensive air quality compliance. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>The Penalty - If you get caught running a “standby power only” generator the fine is now $39,000 per day! </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>Now I am far from a polluting kind of individual and all for air quality but this is getting the best of us. The 13KW air cooled generators are only good for 2000 hours, & the water cooled go 20 years of moderate usage but cost a boat load. I hate having the “Generator” talk with a new client they look at me like I am crazy. So the air cooled units are basically throwaways and the 22KW units are way more than we need and what a client needs to spend money on, unless you are at 10,000 ft el.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:14.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>If you figure 30 amps/120 VAC input per inverter +/- x 2 = 7.2KW plus say 10-15% fudge or elevation factors would require an 8200-8300 watt generator. Air cooled at 3600 RPM = 80 MPH & 1800 RPM = 40 MPH. Even if the generator were a bit smaller, ran slow (1200-1800 rpm) and ran a bit longer that would be acceptable. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>So, why are we installing even 13KW air cooled or 22 KW water generators?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>There is a business opportunity here folks.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:14.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>What are you all installing?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>Why?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>Is it reliable?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>Would you use it on your house?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:14.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>Thanks for sharing all the wisdom and knowledge.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:14.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>----------------------------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b>Dana Orzel</b> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><u>Great Solar Works, Inc - <b>NABCEP # 051112-136</b></u><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b>E</b> - <a href="mailto:dana@solarwork.com" target="_blank">dana@solarwork.com</a> - <b>Web</b> - <a href="http://solarwork.com" target="_blank">solarwork.com</a> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b>O</b> - <a href="tel:970.626.5253" target="_blank">970.626.5253</a> <b>C </b>- <a href="tel:208.721.7003" target="_blank">208.721.7003</a> - No FAX Line<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><u>"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" </u></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;background:white'><b><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:Webdings;color:green'>P</span></b><span style='font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:navy'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:green'>Please consider the environment before printing this email.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>_______________________________________________<br>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance<br><br>List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>Change listserver email address & settings:<br><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List-Archive: <a href="http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html" target="_blank">http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html</a><br><br>List rules & etiquette:<br><a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm" target="_blank">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br><br>Check out or update participant bios:<br><a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Change listserver email address & settings:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>List-Archive: <a href="http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html">http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>List rules & etiquette:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Check out or update participant bios:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Change listserver email address & settings:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>List-Archive: <a href="http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html">http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>List rules & etiquette:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Check out or update participant bios:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></body></html>