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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=white lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Larry, have you tried <a href="http://www.quickcharge.com/">http://www.quickcharge.com/</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Christopher<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'> RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Larry<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, December 17, 2014 09:51<br><b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Programmable Battery Charger<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>boB and Jarmo, thanks for great explanations.......So, let's dump that idea and go back to square one: a programmable 1.5kW charger for 12 volt batteries. I have been checking with all the charger manufacturers I can find and no one makes this product. Argus said no, Pro Charging said no, a few others, no.<br><br>Brian, an inverter/charger and remote will work great but that still represents $1000 cost and about $1350 to my customer for a 100 amp charger. But, so far, this is my only option.<br><br>A few years ago Magnum Energy told me they were working on a stand alone programmable charger but nothing yet. It probably does not cost much less to build than the inverter/charger does.<br><br>Thanks to all for the answers.<br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre>Thank you,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Larry <o:p></o:p></pre><p class=MsoNormal>On 12/16/14 2:19 PM, <a href="mailto:boB@midnitesolar.com">boB@midnitesolar.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><br>Jarmo, you are absolutely correct. This is another great reason NOT to use an MPPT charge controller<br>as an AC sourced battery charger. Also, if my instructions are not followed to a TEE, the CC WILL blow up !<br><br>The input capacitors are going to wear out MUCH sooner than a real charger because of the 60Hz or 120<br>Hz ripple shown in Jarmo's graph. Capacitor ripple abuse was one answer to one of Larry's questions about long term<br>reliability.<br><br><br>Also, if the input diodes short, you are applying AC directly to the input capacitors and<br>will go POOF as well as the power section.<br><br>And you would NOT know that you needed an input power resistor first or possibly where<br>to even find one of the correct resistor values and power ratings if the input source is stiff.<br>This is the scariest problem in my mind.... Too high of input max power voltage, overcurrent<br>and then, battery voltage regulation will overshoot without that resistor.<br><br>I would just spend the extra money and do this right in the first place and don't try to<br>cut corners on price.<br><br>Brian Teitelbaum had the best idea I think... Just buy an inverter with a power factor corrected<br>charger like the newer Schneider SW inverter/charger (I think that was the one ?) or one of<br>the MSW Magnums. Or, a decent charger if one exists. Haven't seen the Argus/Alpha one.<br><br>MPPT charge controllers are really just NOT designed for this. (although they might work for a while).<br><br>In fact, Ryan from MidNite Solar blew up several Classics at first.<br><br>But knowing that some folks are going to try this, I thought it best to give at least some directions.<br><br>Thanks,<br>boB<br><br><br>On 12/16/2014 12:34 PM, <a href="mailto:Jarmo.Venalainen@schneider-electric.com">Jarmo.Venalainen@schneider-electric.com</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Hi:</span> <br><br><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>I'm enjoying learning many new ways of looking at things and of practical solutions on this forum. In that spirit, the only thing I would add to this discussion is that the power factor as seen by the AC source will be very poor. In that regard, the larger the caps, the more stable the "DC" voltage, but the poorer the PF.</span> <br><br><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>This will show up as much lower charging efficiency due to the way in which AC current is drawn by the bridge rectifier/capacitor circuit. Here's an actual graph of how a bridge rectifier connected to a capacitor draws AC current,</span> <br><br><img border=0 width=659 height=500 id="_x0000_i1025" src="cid:image001.gif@01D019E3.C1AD3910"><br><br><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>The graph is from my past life a couple of decades ago back when I was studying. It's not a conventional phase-shift PF problem, but rather a form factor PF problem. It shows the current drawn by a 13" PC monitor of that era, before PF correction was mandated for all new products. In this example the 'crest factor', (peak current as measured versus what it could have been if the current was drawn throughout the AC pulses, was about 4x). Depending on the size of capacitor, it can be as high as 7x.</span> <br><br><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>The practical effect on the wires and devices including the diodes and charge controller, is that a lot of heat is generated in their power components. The source of the energy for that heat is the AC source and in cases where the AC source is a generator that translates to much higher fuel consumption, (in some cases over 30% more).</span> <br><br><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Out of my tests back then, I also discovered one practical recommendation. </span> <br><br><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>If you are using bridge rectifiers connected to capacitors, do not have any length of wire and in particular no loop area in the wires between the bridge rectifier and capacitors. Having wire/loop area introduces inductance into the circuit which behaves somewhat like an ignition coil due to the high speed reverse recovery period of the diodes; and this happens four times every AC cycle. Given the right conditions the voltage spikes caused by that inductance/ignition coil like effect will make short work of the diodes and other components which are on the circuit.</span> <br><br><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>The voltage spikes wont be a problem if the bridge rectifier is as close as possible to the capacitors, but due to reverse recovery effect, you'll still be stressing the parts and heating wires.</span> <br><br><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>In my opinion, its ok to do this, but I wouldn't push power levels to anywhere near the limits of components and devices.</span> <br><br><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>JARMO</span> <br><br><span style='color:green'>_____________________________________________________________________________________</span> <br><b><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>Jarmo Venalainen</span></b><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> | </span><b><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:green'> Schneider Electric </span></b><b><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> | Solar Business</span></b><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> | <b>CANADA</b> | <b>Training & Development Specialist - Senior</b> <b><br>Phone:</b> +604-422-2528 | <b>Fax:</b> +604-420-1591 | <b>Mobile:</b> +604-505-0291 <b><br>Email:</b> </span><a href="mailto:jarmo.venalainen@schneider-electric.com"><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>jarmo.venalainen@schneider-electric.com</span></a><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> | <b>Site:</b></span><a href="http://www.sesolar.com/" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> www.SEsolar.com</span></a><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> | <b>Address:</b> 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 </span><o:p></o:p></p><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><hr size=2 width="100%" noshade style='color:#ACA899' align=center></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br><br><br><br>Larry, Pitfalls ?<br>The biggest pitfall I would say is if you have a VERY stiff grid.<br><br>If your Voc is say, 170V DC and the CC current limits it output at say, 169 V DC,<br>they you are going to need to add an input power resistor of a couple Ohms to<br>help cushion the input to be more like a PV module. A lot of times, the grid is<br>not nearly this bad, especially generators.<br><br>Also, If you are going to do this, I would NOT use Solar mode but instead try<br>Hydro mode set to Manual MPP voltage. First start the MPPV at something just<br>less than Voc or maybe, say, 160 VDC. Then, from main STATUS screen, you can<br>adjust the input voltage up and down by pressing the Soft-Right or Soft-Left<br>keys respectfully. (upper right and upper left keys). Then you can manually get<br>a feel for what it should be set for.<br><br>The Classic 200 is the only CC of ours that I would use. The 250 would work but the<br>200 is much more suited. I wish there were a real charger that one could buy that was<br>isolated, and we have never really advocated MPPT charge controllers for this but<br>in a pinch, they always seem to work find. Never did add a "DT" mode (after Daryl<br>Thayer of course), but this hydro mode seems to work OK.<br><br>If you want to let it sweep but setting it to 3 minutes (or higher) that will also work.<br>If you do that, set the minimum input voltage. Something like 140V or so will keep<br>it from dropping the input voltage too low and either bogging down the input source<br>and the rectifier bridge (especially generators)<br><br>You can also set the INPUT current limit in the LIMITS menu. This was for hydro<br>in particular. Either limit can help reduce Isc or bogging down issues.<br><br>The other pitfall is that it is NOT galvanically isolated so you should be very careful.<br>We use an X240 equivalent transformer to keep the batteries going in our burn in<br>rack using 2 Classic 200s and it works great.<br><br>Also, use a nice and strong full bridge rectifier so that it applies 120 Hz instead of<br>60 Hz to the input. That is much easier on the input capacitors and things and just<br>makes it work smoother. There are input capacitors (filtering) on most charge controllers.<br><br>Again, in a pinch this seems to work but watch that input max power point voltage to make<br>sure it is not too high compared to the Voc. If there isn't enough voltage spacing between<br>the two (stiff AC source) then the control isn't going to be very smooth and might risk<br>letting the smoke out.<br><br>What ever you do here, be very careful what you touch !<br><br>boB<br><br><br><br><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#004080'>This has been discussed on this list in years past. It is possible to use an outback charge controller as a battery charger. You need to put the 120 AC into a bridge rectifier, then feed the 120 DC into the controller’s PV input. So you’ll have an 80 amp battery charger.</span> <br><br><o:p></o:p></p><p>On Dec 15, 2014 4:01 PM, "Larry" <<a href="mailto:larry@starlightsolar.com" target="_blank">larry@starlightsolar.com</a>> wrote: <br>Wrenches,<br><br>Does anyone know of a 120/12 volt battery charger that can be programmed for absorb and float voltage and time in absorb mode? I have been needing this product for many years but I can only find it in inverters with built in chargers from Magnum, Outback, and Xantrex.<br><br>-- <br>Thank you,<br><br>Larry Crutcher<br>Starlight Solar Power Systems <o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p> </o:p></p></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></body></html>