<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Hi Mac,<div><br></div><div>I recommend the all SMA retrofit option with the addition of load-shedding contactors to protect the batteries from over-discharge. When considering costs in a utility backup system, reliability is a key component. Using the Fronius inverters with the Sunny Islands reduces reliability significantly as well as charge control functionality. UPS system performance is evaluated in terms of "9's" of reliability. The design has to focus on adding 9's to the 99.9XXXX % uptime of the system. Half measures in a repair of this kind will result in callbacks and embarrassment for everyone concerned.</div><div><br><div><div apple-content-edited="true">
<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font-size: 12px; "><font face="Arial" size="4" style="font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; ">Best regards,</font></div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font-size: 12px; "><font face="Arial" size="4" style="font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; "><br></font></div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font-size: 12px; "><font face="Arial" size="4" style="font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; ">Abe Powell</font></div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font-size: 12px; "><font face="Arial" size="4" style="font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; ">Solforce</font></div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font-size: 12px; "><font face="Arial" size="4" style="font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; ">e-mail: <a href="mailto:abe@solforce.com">abe@solforce.com</a></font></div></div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; "><br></div></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
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<br><div><div>On Jul 3, 2014, at 10:39 AM, <a href="mailto:re-wrenches-request@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-request@lists.re-wrenches.org</a> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div>Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>re-wrenches-request@lists.re-wrenches.org<br><br>You can reach the person managing the list at<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>re-wrenches-owner@lists.re-wrenches.org<br><br>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..."<br><br><br>When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines from the quoted message.<br><br><br>Today's Topics:<br><br> 1. Re: Sunny Island retrofit (Mac Lewis)<br><br><br>----------------------------------------------------------------------<br><br>Message: 1<br>Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2014 10:33:40 -0600<br>From: Mac Lewis <maclewis1@gmail.com><br>To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org><br>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island retrofit<br>Message-ID:<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><CAOABG49JWMBjbcFE4weap2cZyMyZWOhBHV9p+HEEUugGLVYWjA@mail.gmail.com><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br><br>Hi Wrenches,<br><br>Jerry, I think you are correct, sma gear all around would be best. This<br>will be my recommendation but I am sensitive to this substantial cost.<br>Dave, if I add the second Sunny Island, I don't think I will be throttled<br>back because the transfer relays are rated for 60A. This should pass the<br>full current of the output of the Fronius, which is 41.7A. My concern is<br>more during backup mode, if the Sunny Islands could "trick" the Fronius<br>into staying on line. I would add either load dump relay control or an AC<br>interrupt relay to knock the Fronius off-line if the batteries were full,<br>in addition to the frequency shift control that the Sunny Island offers.<br><br>Thanks for the input, I'll shoot for all SMA gear.<br><br>Thanks<br><br><br>On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 9:23 AM, Dave Click <daveclick@fsec.ucf.edu> wrote:<br><br><blockquote type="cite"> Mac, that Island interconnects with a max 70A 1P breaker (6.7kW<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">continuous), so unless they have a constant critical load draw or the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Fronius is massively oversized, you probably don't want to AC couple the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Fronius. The 5048 is also able to output a continuous 5000W only when it's<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">cooler than 77F and it derates above that (4500W at 95F, for example). I<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">don't believe its surge ratings apply to the AC2 output back into the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">utility but they probably wouldn't be enough, anyway. I think that whenever<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">the Fronius output reached about 6000W, the SI would shift its frequency to<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">switch the Fronius off. Cheapest may be along the lines of your first<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">option-- not sure what the PV stringing is like but maybe you could move a<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">string or two off the Fronius and put it onto a new Sunny Boy with an<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">autoformer. Since I imagine this system doesn't have PV WIRE on the module<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">leads or home runs, officially I'd recommend a classic Sunny Boy. Then<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">leave the Fronius as-is.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Unless of course the customer thought they were buying a system with the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">full 10kW supplying critical loads when the utility is down... then the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">original contractor is stuck with buying the second SI they should have<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">installed in the first place.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">DKC<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">On 2014/7/3, 10:46, Mac Lewis wrote:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Hello wrenches,<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> I wanted to run this scenario by the forum. I have spoken with SMA<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">about this, but want some other opinions.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> We were recently contracted by a fellow solar company to do some<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">warranty work for them out of town on a Sunny Island system that they had<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">installed about 5 years ago. It was VERY poorly implemented originally and<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">was never installed as SMA intended. In fact, during a small power outage,<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">the only loads that never came back on after the utility was back on line<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">were the loads in the critical load panel. Oops.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Anyway, our job is to get it working properly for the least amount of<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">cost possible. They have a Fronius IG Plus 10.0 fed into a 400A service<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">panel. The Sunny Island 5048 AC Input also comes off of this panel and<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">feeding a 120V only critical load panel. Please note that there is no<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">solar fed into the AC output side of the Sunny Island, because there is not<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">120/240 available and thus there is no possible way for this system to<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">utilize the solar while the grid is not present.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> I see two options (but there may be more): pull out Fronius, put in<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Sunny Boy inverters and an autoformer, wire properly. Another option is to<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">add second Sunny Island and try to AC couple the Fronius with the two Sunny<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Islands. The second option is less expensive overall, but I'm hesitant to<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">rely on AC coupling with the Fronius.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> I'd appreciate any thoughts on this.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Thanks<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> --<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> Mac Lewis<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">* "Yo solo s? que no s? nada." -S?crates *<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">_______________________________________________<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">List sponsored by Redwood Alliance<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">_______________________________________________<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">List sponsored by Redwood Alliance<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Change listserver email address & settings:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">List-Archive:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">List rules & etiquette:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Check out or update participant bios:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">www.members.re-wrenches.org<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><br><br>-- <br><br><br><br>Mac Lewis<br><br>*"Yo solo s? que no s? nada." -S?crates*<br>-------------- next part --------------<br>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>URL: <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20140703/75ed5c5c/attachment.html><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Subject: Digest Footer<br><br>_______________________________________________<br>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance<br><br>List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org<br><br>Change listserver email address & settings:<br>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org<br><br>List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html<br><br>List rules & etiquette:<br>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm<br><br>Check out or update participant bios:<br>www.members.re-wrenches.org<br><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 7, Issue 257<br>*******************************************<br></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></body></html>