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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Solaredge 20 kw, 480 3-phase. Good point, but that may be irrelevant. The feed-in subpanel is also powering unrelated loads, which use the neutral as a conductor from the main panel. So 4 conductors from the main.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Kirk Herander<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>VT Solar, LLC<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>dba Vermont Solar Engineering<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>NABCEP<sup>TM </sup>Certified Inaugural Certificant<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>NYSERDA-eligible Installer<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>VT RE Incentive Program Partner<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>802.863.1202<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Allen Frishman<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 04, 2014 4:32 PM<br><b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] conductors and the 120% rule<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>what inverter(s) are you using? In many cases the Neutral is not considered a Current Carying Conductor by the Manufacturer and therefore you only have 3 CCC.<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><i><span style='font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>Al Frishman</span></i><span style='font-size:13.5pt;color:black'><br></span><span style='font-size:13.5pt;color:#030100'>Aeon</span><span style='font-size:13.5pt;color:#FF9700'>Solar</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><i><span style='font-size:10.5pt;color:black'><a href="tel:%28917%29%20699-6641" target="_blank">(917) 699-6641</a> - cell</span></i><span style='font-size:10.5pt;color:black'><br><i><a href="tel:%28888%29%20460-2867" target="_blank">(888) 460-2867</a></i><br><i><a href="http://www.aeonsolar.com/" target="_blank">www.aeonsolar.com</a></i></span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Mar 4, 2014, at 4:20 PM, Kirk Herander wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Approx.. 50 – 60ft.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Kirk Herander</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>VT Solar, LLC</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>dba Vermont Solar Engineering</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>NABCEP<sup>TM<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></sup>Certified Inaugural Certificant</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>NYSERDA-eligible Installer</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>VT RE Incentive Program Partner</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>802.863.1202</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;border-width:initial;border-color:initial'><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a href="mailto:[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org]">[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org]</a><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></b>Ray Walters<br><b>Sent:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Tuesday, March 04, 2014 4:05 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>RE-wrenches<br><b>Subject:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Re: [RE-wrenches] conductors and the 120% rule</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>What is the length of the conduit to the subpanel? That will determine whether to apply the derates.<br><br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><pre><span style='color:black'>R.Ray Walters<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>CTO, Solarray, Inc<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>Nabcep Certified PV Installer, <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>Licensed Master Electrician<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>Solar Design Engineer<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>303 505-8760<o:p></o:p></span></pre><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>On 3/4/2014 1:34 PM, Kirk Herander wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Whether or not a further derate has to be applied is the killer here, as I am working with existing panels and conductors. In an old Code Corner(HP140) J. Wiles goes through a similar scenario and calls out the allowable current rating and conductor in 310.15, but makes no mention of applying additional derate factors. The .8 derate for 4-6 conductors(l1,l2,l3, & n) will put the existing 4/0 cable between feed-in and main panel at 208 amps, less than the allowable 217. I’d hate to need to upsize the wire to 250 mcm.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Kirk Herander</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>VT Solar, LLC</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>dba Vermont Solar Engineering</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>NABCEP<sup>TM<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></sup>Certified Inaugural Certificant</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>NYSERDA-eligible Installer</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>VT RE Incentive Program Partner</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>802.863.1202</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> </span></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'><a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>[<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></b>Jason Szumlanski<br><b>Sent:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Tuesday, March 04, 2014 2:57 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>RE-wrenches<br><b>Subject:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Re: [RE-wrenches] conductors and the 120% rule</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>Both the bus and conductors need to be rated for 217 amps minimum. As you mentioned, the bus is not a problem. The way I interpret it, the conductor size required would be after derate factors are applied. The rating of the conductor is ultimately dependent on the derate factors.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>If you can locate your subpanel adjacent to the main distribution panel, you may be able to use Exception #3 to 310.15(B)(2) by connecting the panels with a short nipple. I assume you are just looking at a number of conductor derate and not an ambient temperature derate.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id="WISESTAMP_SIG_gmail_session"><div><div style='margin-bottom:6.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>Jason Szumlanski</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'>Fafco Solar</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black'><br> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in'><image001.jpg></span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 12:05 PM, Kirk Herander <<a href="mailto:kirk@vtsolar.com" target="_blank">kirk@vtsolar.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:black'>Hello,</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:black'>I have a 225 amp 3-phase main lug sub-panel protected by a 200 amp breaker. My inverter breaker feeding the sub panel is 60 amps. So 225 a bus x 1.2 = 270 amps. That’s less than the sum of the two breakers of 260 amps, so no issue there. The conductors between sub and main panel have to be rated for at least 260/1.2 = 217 amps, correct? Is this 217 amps before or after derating the conductor?</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:black'>Kirk Herander</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:black'>VT Solar, LLC</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:black'>dba Vermont Solar Engineering</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:black'>NABCEP<sup>TM<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></sup>Certified Inaugural Certificant</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:black'>NYSERDA-eligible Installer</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:black'>VT RE Incentive Program Partner</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:black'><a href="tel:802.863.1202" target="_blank">802.863.1202</a></span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><br><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><pre><span style='color:black'>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>List sponsored by Home Power magazine<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>Change email address & settings:<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>List-Archive: <a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>List rules & etiquette:<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>Check out participant bios:<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'><a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></pre></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:13.5pt'><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>_______________________________________________<br>List sponsored by Home Power magazine<br><br>List Address:<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>Change email address & settings:<br><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List-Archive:<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List rules & etiquette:<br><a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br><br>Check out participant bios:<br><a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></body></html>