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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Sorry for my density….is “PV wire” necessarily double insulated?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>marco<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jason Szumlanski<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 02, 2013 6:52 AM<br><b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] double insulated wire<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>No wiring color convention or code requirement will reduce the need to check (double-, triple-check) polarity during any DC wiring task. I'd almost prefer everything to be black except the grounded conductor (white if present) and grounding conductors in a DC system. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>(opinions stated without consideration of code or convention)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:gray'>Jason Szumlanski </span><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:gray'>Fafco Solar<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 10:09 AM, August Goers <<a href="mailto:august@luminalt.com" target="_blank">august@luminalt.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>The most common mistake I've seen is not correctly using white/gray for<br>the grounded conductor on the DC side. I've seen errors most commonly with<br>positive grounded systems (SunPower) but often times installers use black<br>in place of white or something along those lines. It definitely gets<br>confusing. Otherwise, my opinion is that you can basically do what you<br>need with white, black, red, and green for the majority of isolated and<br>non-isolated PV systems with relatively little confusion as long as<br>everything is well labeled. Corey Shalanski's color coding sheet looked<br>good to me. We've tried different colors such as purple and orange and<br>having the extra rolls of wire in the warehouse and other new conventions<br>just causes more confusion. If I'm troubleshooting a system installed by<br>someone else I'm going to check everything with my multimeter before<br>concluding how everything is wired. Wire color isn't going to help that<br>much other than giving me a few hints on what the other installer was<br>thinking.<br><br>Best, August<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: <a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br>[mailto:<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] On Behalf Of Richard L<br>Ratico<br>Sent: Monday, July 01, 2013 6:46 PM<br>To: <a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] double insulated wire<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Ray,<br>I really DO get it. But, after 20 years of mostly working with AC, almost<br>always terminating black conductors to the left of red conductors: black -<br>red, black - red, black - red..... I don't think it's much of a mental<br>stretch to see how RED<br>- BLACK might possibly cause some confusion in the heat of the moment.<br>What say the negative conductor was required to be purple or purple with a<br>white stripe when grounded, or some other very infrequently used or even<br>completely new color, or color combination? Some system that immediately<br>screams "DC!". Would that not make more sense?<br><br>It's still a new world, having DC and AC conductors terminated in the same<br>system and enclosure. Thanks for the conversation.<br>And keep an eye on those electricians ;-)<br><br>Dick Ratico<br>Solarwind Electric<br><br><br>--- You wrote:<br>Dick;<br><br>I'm not advocating for a color coding system I invented. It is not<br>dependent on how a wrench's head is wired; its corresponds to how his<br>meter is wired. This is simply combining NEC compliance with almost<br>universal common practice (batteries, automotive, forklifts, multimeters,<br>battery based inverters)<br><br>R.Ray Walters<br>CTO, Solarray, Inc<br>Nabcep Certified PV Installer,<br>Licensed Master Electrician<br>Solar Design Engineer<br><a href="tel:303%20505-8760">303 505-8760</a><br><br>On 6/30/2013 9:58 AM, Richard L Ratico wrote:<br>> Ray,<br>> Conductors can be mislabled regardless of the system used. The<br>> accident you described had nothing to do with conductor color or<br>> labeling. It was caused by<br>a<br>> gross violation of sound electrical procedure and plain common sense.<br>> Your electricians failed to check for correct polarity before making<br>> their terminations.<br>><br>> I grant your system works for you and could for others. But until the<br>> NEC<br>forces<br>> us all onto the same page, an argument can be made that any coding<br>> system is<br>as<br>> confusing as another. Pardon the pun, it depends on the way a<br>> wrenches's head<br>is<br>> wired.<br>><br>> Dick Ratico<br>> Solarwind Electric<br>><br>><br>> --- You wrote:<br>> We have standardized on DC markings White negative and Red positive.<br>><br>> Chris Mason<br>> Comet Systems<br>> Anguilla <a href="tel:%28264%29%20235-5670">(264) 235-5670</a><br>> St. Kitts <a href="tel:%28869%29%20662-5670">(869) 662-5670</a><br>> skype netconcepts<br>><br>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV InstallerTM<br>> Renewable Energy Systems professional<br>> Generac Generators Factory technician<br>> On Jun 29, 2013 8:30 PM, "David Katz" <<a href="mailto:dkatz@aeesolar.com">dkatz@aeesolar.com</a>> wrote:<br>><br>>> Watch out for accountants who become installers. They always thing<br>>> red negative and black positive.<br>>> David Katz<br>>><br>>> Sent from my iPhone<br>>><br>>> On Jun 28, 2013, at 5:40 PM, "Ray Walters" <<a href="mailto:ray@solarray.com">ray@solarray.com</a>> wrote:<br>>><br>>>> Richard, when you use your Fluke 87 to measure Vdc, black is<br>>>> negative, red is positive. The black is labeled common because the<br>>>> meter can also be used for current measurements. (I have a Fluke 89)<br>>>> When you start using black wire for positive, it may be allowed by<br>>>> code, but there just isn't a good reason for it.<br>>>> Its just too easy to make a mistake, and its just too easy to adhere<br>>>> to the multimeter convention and keep it safer.<br>>>><br>>>> I have personally watched seasoned electricians argue color coding<br>>>> with me, then minutes later get mixed up and wire two 10 module<br>>>> strings in series, because they forgot for a moment that they were<br>>>> working on a positive grounded system. The result was an almost<br>>>> 1000 v arc that jumped an opened fuse holder (only rated to 600 vdc)<br>>>> and started a small fire in the inverter, before I disconnected it at<br>the array.<br>>>><br>>>> Please give one example where leaving positive unmarked with black<br>>>> wire makes more sense than taping it. Colored electrical tape, and<br>>>> label tape are much cheaper than inverters and people. THHN, USE,<br>>>> and PV wire can all be purchased in red, white, and black. (which<br>>>> saves time with multiple home runs) Its not code yet, but it's good<br>>>> sense, all the way back to the color coded jumper cables you might<br>>>> have in your trunk.<br>>>> I have discussed this with many electricians over the years, but<br>>>> eventually every single one sees that's its really easy, no cost,<br>>>> and still code compliant to make things safer.<br>>>><br>>>> R.Ray Walters<br>>>> CTO, Solarray, Inc<br>>>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer,<br>>>> Licensed Master Electrician<br>>>> Solar Design Engineer<br>>>> <a href="tel:303%20505-8760">303 505-8760</a><br>>>><br>>>> On 6/28/2013 2:49 PM, Richard L Ratico wrote:<br>>>>> Respectfully:<br>>>>> My Fluke 87 does not use this convention. Black is labeled the<br>>>>> COMMON<br>>> terminal,<br>>>>> the red terminal is labeled according to function, not polarity.<br>>> Battery based<br>>>>> inverter manus. using this convention typically provide BOS<br>>>>> enclosures<br>>> with OCP<br>>>>> for only one inverter conductor. This requires the other conductor<br>>>>> to be grounded and colored white or gray. Therefore IMHO the manus.<br>>>>> should<br>>> use only +<br>>>>> or - to identify inverter terminals. Many, if not most, battery<br>>> companies do<br>>>>> this already. Mr. Wiles is, of course, welcome to his opinion.<br>>>>><br>>>>> I would suggest we stay with the NEC required use of any color<br>>>>> other<br>>> than white,<br>>>>> green or gray for ungrounded conductors. This gives installers some<br>>> flexibility.<br>>>>> It also encourages the guy on the hot roof or the gal in the stuffy<br>>> mechanical<br>>>>> room to check and double check, maybe triple check polarity, as<br>>>>> they<br>>> should be<br>>>>> doing anyway. I do like the practice of enhanced identification of<br>>> conductors in<br>>>>> positive ground systems.<br>>>>><br>>>>> Dick Ratico<br>>>>> Solarwind Electric<br>>>>><br>>>>><br>>>>> --- You wrote:<br>>>>> The convention of red for positive and black for negative is not<br>>>>> just automotive. It is also used by all battery based inverter<br>>>>> manus, all battery companies, and all multimeters.<br>>>>> John Wiles also agrees;<br>>>>> red = positive, black = negative for ungrounded systems red =<br>>>>> positive, white = negative for negative grounded systems white =<br>>>>> positive, black = negative for pos grounded systems.<br>>>>> I take it a step further, and use white label tape with red<br>>>>> lettering that says "+ positive ground + ", because I've seen so<br>>>>> many problems with positive grounded systems, and people not<br>>>>> getting polarity correct.<br>>>>> All of this is NEC compliant, and follows standard conventions.<br>>>>> Make it easy on yourself and your journeymen on a hot roof, and<br>>>>> have your color coding match their multimeter.<br>>>>> You might save an inverter or even a life.<br>>>>><br>>>>> R.Ray Walters<br>>>>> CTO, Solarray, Inc<br>>>>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer,<br>>>>> Licensed Master Electrician<br>>>>> Solar Design Engineer<br>>>>> <a href="tel:303%20505-8760">303 505-8760</a><br>>>>><br>>>>> On 6/28/2013 12:09 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote:<br>>>>>> On 6/28/2013 11:47 AM, <a href="mailto:aram@aramsolar.com">aram@aramsolar.com</a> wrote:<br>>>>>>> And of course Red for positive and black for negative.<br>>>>>>> Most building departments have not pick up on this yet. But they<br>will.<br>>>>>>> Aram<br>>>>>> Where does "of course Red for positive and black for negative"<br>>>>>> come from, please? I only know it as an automotive standard that<br>>>>>> has often caused confusion when used by DIY offgridders in years<br>>>>>> past, as black thus could represent either positive or negative in<br>>>>>> a DC conductor<br>>> pair.<br>>>>>> Is there yet a convention for ungrounded arrays? While red and<br>>>>>> black are technically correct as ungrounded current-carrying<br>>>>>> conductors, use of this color convention could cause as much<br>>>>>> confusion as resolve it in the future. How about "black and black"<br>>>>>> or for that matter "yellow and orange" (if supplied by<br>manufacturers) for ungrounded arrays?<br>>>>>> Thanks, Allan<br>>>>>><br>>>>>> *Allan Sindelar*<br>>>>>> <a href="mailto:_Allan@positiveenergysolar.com_">_Allan@positiveenergysolar.com_</a><br>>>>>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:Allan@positiveenergysolar.com">Allan@positiveenergysolar.com</a>><br>>>>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified<br>>>>>> Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman<br>>>>>> Electrician Founder and Chief Technology Officer *Positive Energy,<br>>>>>> Inc.*, a Certified B Corporation^TM<br>>>>>> 3209 Richards Lane<br>>>>>> Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507<br>>>>>> *<a href="tel:505%20424-1112">505 424-1112</a> office 780-2738 cell* _www.positiveenergysolar.com_<br>>>>>> <<a href="http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/" target="_blank">http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/</a>><br>>>>> --- end of quote ---<br>>>>> _______________________________________________<br>>>>> List sponsored by Home Power magazine<br>>>>><br>>>>> List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br>>>>><br>>>>> Change email address & settings:<br>>>>> <a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.or" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.or</a><br>>>>> g<br>>>>><br>>>>> List-Archive:<br>>> <a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br>>>>> List rules & etiquette:<br>>>>> <a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm" target="_blank">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br>>>>><br>>>>> Check out participant bios:<br>>>>> <a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><br>> --- end of quote ---<br>><br>--- end of quote ---<br>_______________________________________________<br>List sponsored by Home Power magazine<br><br>List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>Change email address & settings:<br><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List-Archive:<br><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List rules & etiquette:<br><a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm" target="_blank">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br><br>Check out participant bios:<br><a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><br>_______________________________________________<br>List sponsored by Home Power magazine<br><br>List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>Change email address & settings:<br><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List-Archive: <a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List rules & etiquette:<br><a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm" target="_blank">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br><br>Check out participant bios:<br><a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></div></body></html>