<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">No wiring color convention or code requirement will reduce the need to check (double-, triple-check) polarity during any DC wiring task. I'd almost prefer everything to be black except the grounded conductor (white if present) and grounding conductors in a DC system.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">(opinions stated without consideration of code or convention)</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">
<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(128,128,128);font-size:medium;display:inline"></div><span style="color:rgb(128,128,128);font-family:helvetica;font-size:medium">Jason Szumlanski</span><br style="color:rgb(128,128,128);font-family:helvetica;font-size:medium">
<div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(128,128,128);font-size:medium;display:inline">Fafco Solar</div><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">
<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 10:09 AM, August Goers <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:august@luminalt.com" target="_blank">august@luminalt.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">The most common mistake I've seen is not correctly using white/gray for<br>
the grounded conductor on the DC side. I've seen errors most commonly with<br>
positive grounded systems (SunPower) but often times installers use black<br>
in place of white or something along those lines. It definitely gets<br>
confusing. Otherwise, my opinion is that you can basically do what you<br>
need with white, black, red, and green for the majority of isolated and<br>
non-isolated PV systems with relatively little confusion as long as<br>
everything is well labeled. Corey Shalanski's color coding sheet looked<br>
good to me. We've tried different colors such as purple and orange and<br>
having the extra rolls of wire in the warehouse and other new conventions<br>
just causes more confusion. If I'm troubleshooting a system installed by<br>
someone else I'm going to check everything with my multimeter before<br>
concluding how everything is wired. Wire color isn't going to help that<br>
much other than giving me a few hints on what the other installer was<br>
thinking.<br>
<br>
Best, August<br>
<div class="im"><br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] On Behalf Of Richard L<br>
Ratico<br>
Sent: Monday, July 01, 2013 6:46 PM<br>
To: <a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] double insulated wire<br>
<br>
</div><div class=""><div class="h5">Ray,<br>
I really DO get it. But, after 20 years of mostly working with AC, almost<br>
always terminating black conductors to the left of red conductors: black -<br>
red, black - red, black - red..... I don't think it's much of a mental<br>
stretch to see how RED<br>
- BLACK might possibly cause some confusion in the heat of the moment.<br>
What say the negative conductor was required to be purple or purple with a<br>
white stripe when grounded, or some other very infrequently used or even<br>
completely new color, or color combination? Some system that immediately<br>
screams "DC!". Would that not make more sense?<br>
<br>
It's still a new world, having DC and AC conductors terminated in the same<br>
system and enclosure. Thanks for the conversation.<br>
And keep an eye on those electricians ;-)<br>
<br>
Dick Ratico<br>
Solarwind Electric<br>
<br>
<br>
--- You wrote:<br>
Dick;<br>
<br>
I'm not advocating for a color coding system I invented. It is not<br>
dependent on how a wrench's head is wired; its corresponds to how his<br>
meter is wired. This is simply combining NEC compliance with almost<br>
universal common practice (batteries, automotive, forklifts, multimeters,<br>
battery based inverters)<br>
<br>
R.Ray Walters<br>
CTO, Solarray, Inc<br>
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,<br>
Licensed Master Electrician<br>
Solar Design Engineer<br>
<a href="tel:303%20505-8760" value="+13035058760">303 505-8760</a><br>
<br>
On 6/30/2013 9:58 AM, Richard L Ratico wrote:<br>
> Ray,<br>
> Conductors can be mislabled regardless of the system used. The<br>
> accident you described had nothing to do with conductor color or<br>
> labeling. It was caused by<br>
a<br>
> gross violation of sound electrical procedure and plain common sense.<br>
> Your electricians failed to check for correct polarity before making<br>
> their terminations.<br>
><br>
> I grant your system works for you and could for others. But until the<br>
> NEC<br>
forces<br>
> us all onto the same page, an argument can be made that any coding<br>
> system is<br>
as<br>
> confusing as another. Pardon the pun, it depends on the way a<br>
> wrenches's head<br>
is<br>
> wired.<br>
><br>
> Dick Ratico<br>
> Solarwind Electric<br>
><br>
><br>
> --- You wrote:<br>
> We have standardized on DC markings White negative and Red positive.<br>
><br>
> Chris Mason<br>
> Comet Systems<br>
> Anguilla <a href="tel:%28264%29%20235-5670" value="+12642355670">(264) 235-5670</a><br>
> St. Kitts <a href="tel:%28869%29%20662-5670" value="+18696625670">(869) 662-5670</a><br>
> skype netconcepts<br>
><br>
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV InstallerTM<br>
> Renewable Energy Systems professional<br>
> Generac Generators Factory technician<br>
> On Jun 29, 2013 8:30 PM, "David Katz" <<a href="mailto:dkatz@aeesolar.com">dkatz@aeesolar.com</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
>> Watch out for accountants who become installers. They always thing<br>
>> red negative and black positive.<br>
>> David Katz<br>
>><br>
>> Sent from my iPhone<br>
>><br>
>> On Jun 28, 2013, at 5:40 PM, "Ray Walters" <<a href="mailto:ray@solarray.com">ray@solarray.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>>> Richard, when you use your Fluke 87 to measure Vdc, black is<br>
>>> negative, red is positive. The black is labeled common because the<br>
>>> meter can also be used for current measurements. (I have a Fluke 89)<br>
>>> When you start using black wire for positive, it may be allowed by<br>
>>> code, but there just isn't a good reason for it.<br>
>>> Its just too easy to make a mistake, and its just too easy to adhere<br>
>>> to the multimeter convention and keep it safer.<br>
>>><br>
>>> I have personally watched seasoned electricians argue color coding<br>
>>> with me, then minutes later get mixed up and wire two 10 module<br>
>>> strings in series, because they forgot for a moment that they were<br>
>>> working on a positive grounded system. The result was an almost<br>
>>> 1000 v arc that jumped an opened fuse holder (only rated to 600 vdc)<br>
>>> and started a small fire in the inverter, before I disconnected it at<br>
the array.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Please give one example where leaving positive unmarked with black<br>
>>> wire makes more sense than taping it. Colored electrical tape, and<br>
>>> label tape are much cheaper than inverters and people. THHN, USE,<br>
>>> and PV wire can all be purchased in red, white, and black. (which<br>
>>> saves time with multiple home runs) Its not code yet, but it's good<br>
>>> sense, all the way back to the color coded jumper cables you might<br>
>>> have in your trunk.<br>
>>> I have discussed this with many electricians over the years, but<br>
>>> eventually every single one sees that's its really easy, no cost,<br>
>>> and still code compliant to make things safer.<br>
>>><br>
>>> R.Ray Walters<br>
>>> CTO, Solarray, Inc<br>
>>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer,<br>
>>> Licensed Master Electrician<br>
>>> Solar Design Engineer<br>
>>> <a href="tel:303%20505-8760" value="+13035058760">303 505-8760</a><br>
>>><br>
>>> On 6/28/2013 2:49 PM, Richard L Ratico wrote:<br>
>>>> Respectfully:<br>
>>>> My Fluke 87 does not use this convention. Black is labeled the<br>
>>>> COMMON<br>
>> terminal,<br>
>>>> the red terminal is labeled according to function, not polarity.<br>
>> Battery based<br>
>>>> inverter manus. using this convention typically provide BOS<br>
>>>> enclosures<br>
>> with OCP<br>
>>>> for only one inverter conductor. This requires the other conductor<br>
>>>> to be grounded and colored white or gray. Therefore IMHO the manus.<br>
>>>> should<br>
>> use only +<br>
>>>> or - to identify inverter terminals. Many, if not most, battery<br>
>> companies do<br>
>>>> this already. Mr. Wiles is, of course, welcome to his opinion.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> I would suggest we stay with the NEC required use of any color<br>
>>>> other<br>
>> than white,<br>
>>>> green or gray for ungrounded conductors. This gives installers some<br>
>> flexibility.<br>
>>>> It also encourages the guy on the hot roof or the gal in the stuffy<br>
>> mechanical<br>
>>>> room to check and double check, maybe triple check polarity, as<br>
>>>> they<br>
>> should be<br>
>>>> doing anyway. I do like the practice of enhanced identification of<br>
>> conductors in<br>
>>>> positive ground systems.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Dick Ratico<br>
>>>> Solarwind Electric<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> --- You wrote:<br>
>>>> The convention of red for positive and black for negative is not<br>
>>>> just automotive. It is also used by all battery based inverter<br>
>>>> manus, all battery companies, and all multimeters.<br>
>>>> John Wiles also agrees;<br>
>>>> red = positive, black = negative for ungrounded systems red =<br>
>>>> positive, white = negative for negative grounded systems white =<br>
>>>> positive, black = negative for pos grounded systems.<br>
>>>> I take it a step further, and use white label tape with red<br>
>>>> lettering that says "+ positive ground + ", because I've seen so<br>
>>>> many problems with positive grounded systems, and people not<br>
>>>> getting polarity correct.<br>
>>>> All of this is NEC compliant, and follows standard conventions.<br>
>>>> Make it easy on yourself and your journeymen on a hot roof, and<br>
>>>> have your color coding match their multimeter.<br>
>>>> You might save an inverter or even a life.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> R.Ray Walters<br>
>>>> CTO, Solarray, Inc<br>
>>>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer,<br>
>>>> Licensed Master Electrician<br>
>>>> Solar Design Engineer<br>
>>>> <a href="tel:303%20505-8760" value="+13035058760">303 505-8760</a><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> On 6/28/2013 12:09 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote:<br>
>>>>> On 6/28/2013 11:47 AM, <a href="mailto:aram@aramsolar.com">aram@aramsolar.com</a> wrote:<br>
>>>>>> And of course Red for positive and black for negative.<br>
>>>>>> Most building departments have not pick up on this yet. But they<br>
will.<br>
>>>>>> Aram<br>
>>>>> Where does "of course Red for positive and black for negative"<br>
>>>>> come from, please? I only know it as an automotive standard that<br>
>>>>> has often caused confusion when used by DIY offgridders in years<br>
>>>>> past, as black thus could represent either positive or negative in<br>
>>>>> a DC conductor<br>
>> pair.<br>
>>>>> Is there yet a convention for ungrounded arrays? While red and<br>
>>>>> black are technically correct as ungrounded current-carrying<br>
>>>>> conductors, use of this color convention could cause as much<br>
>>>>> confusion as resolve it in the future. How about "black and black"<br>
>>>>> or for that matter "yellow and orange" (if supplied by<br>
manufacturers) for ungrounded arrays?<br>
>>>>> Thanks, Allan<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> *Allan Sindelar*<br>
>>>>> _Allan@positiveenergysolar.com_<br>
>>>>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:Allan@positiveenergysolar.com">Allan@positiveenergysolar.com</a>><br>
>>>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified<br>
>>>>> Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman<br>
>>>>> Electrician Founder and Chief Technology Officer *Positive Energy,<br>
>>>>> Inc.*, a Certified B Corporation^TM<br>
>>>>> 3209 Richards Lane<br>
>>>>> Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507<br>
>>>>> *<a href="tel:505%20424-1112" value="+15054241112">505 424-1112</a> office 780-2738 cell* _www.positiveenergysolar.com_<br>
>>>>> <<a href="http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/" target="_blank">http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/</a>><br>
>>>> --- end of quote ---<br>
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