Jeff-<br><br>I have always interpreted the code to include a "connector" for each set of wires. I'm tyring to remember what a past coworker said about it and I thought there was something that referenced types of connectors in a box. If I find it I'll write again.<br>
<br>Jason<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 8:40 AM, Jeff Blick <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jeff.blick@sunlightsolar.com">jeff.blick@sunlightsolar.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>
Hi wrenches,<br>
In Reading 314.16(B)there is no mention of including polaris lugs or the<br>
like in box fill calcs. Do any of you include such equipment in your box<br>
fill calcs? If so how do you account for them (ie count it as two<br>
conductors based on the size of the conductors that are landing in it)<br>
Thanks wrenches!<br>
<br>
<br>
Jeff Blick<br>
PV installer<br>
Sunlight Solar Inc.<br>
4 NW Franklin<br>
Bend, OR 97701<br>
direct: 541-306-4196<br>
fax: 541-322-1911<br>
<a href="mailto:jeff.blick@sunlightsolar.com">jeff.blick@sunlightsolar.com</a><br>
<a href="http://www.sunlightsolar.com" target="_blank">www.sunlightsolar.com</a><br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
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Subject: RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 1, Issue 336<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: grid-tie inverters & generators<br>
(Jeff Clearwater, Village Power Design)<br>
2. Re: utility EDS signage (Kent Osterberg)<br>
3. Re: inverters/ generators and noise (robert ellison)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 00:42:29 -0500<br>
From: "Jeff Clearwater, Village Power Design" <<a href="mailto:jeffc@villagepower.com">jeffc@villagepower.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] grid-tie inverters & generators<br>
To: RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>><br>
Message-ID: <p06240806c54aa84bd6a8@[<a href="http://192.168.2.7" target="_blank">192.168.2.7</a>]><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed"<br>
<br>
Hi Folks,<br>
<br>
We burnt up a gen set's voltage regulator on an off-grid system sunny<br>
island/sunny boy system when we took the sunny island's off-line but<br>
didn't shut off the sunny boy. So the SB backfed the genny and fried<br>
the very expensive voltage regulator on a 30 KW system. SMA had us<br>
install a relay to tell the SB to shut down as soon as the AC<br>
reference from the SI was gone. Same situation as grid-tie really in<br>
terms of your question.<br>
<br>
Jeff<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
>Hi Kelly<br>
><br>
>It is an interesting issue and was just dicussing this the other day.<br>
><br>
>I think what happens if the inverter backfeeds the genny, the<br>
>generator voltage will go up, if it goes up enough, it will go<br>
>outside the window of the inverter and the inverter will drop out,<br>
>voltage will them return to normal, inverter will reconnect and<br>
>repeat.<br>
><br>
>But I sure wouldn't want to fix the generator. A relay powered from<br>
>the grid will take care of the problem.<br>
><br>
>jay<br>
><br>
>peltz power<br>
>On Nov 19, 2008, at 5:24 PM, Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind wrote:<br>
><br>
>>Wrenches,<br>
>>I'm dredging up this subject again (previous postings 6/08) with a<br>
>>simple question that doesn't seem to have been answered:<br>
>><br>
>>Is there any issue connecting a batteryless grid-tie PV system to<br>
>>the load side of a panel that is backed-up by a generator on an<br>
>>automatic transfer switch, when the grid is down and the generator<br>
>>running?<br>
>><br>
>>In this case the PV is 5.7kW, the inverter an SMA 6000, the<br>
>>generator unknown size/type, but propane, automatic start, and<br>
>>backing up the entire main panel.<br>
>><br>
>>SMA tech support first said it's OK, then that the generator will<br>
>>blow up. I can imagine, if the inverter tries to sync with the<br>
>>inverter, that the voltage could rise, causing the inverter to<br>
>>disconnect, wait 5 minutes, repeat. Is there anything nasty that<br>
>>could happen?<br>
>><br>
>>Thanks,<br>
>>-Kelly<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>>Kelly Keilwitz, P.E.<br>
>>Whidbey Sun & Wind, LLC<br>
>>Renewable Energy Systems<br>
>>NABCEP Certified PV Installer<br>
>>987 Wanamaker Rd,<br>
>>Coupeville, WA 98239<br>
>>PH & FAX 360-678-7131<br>
>><><a href="mailto:sunwind@whidbeysunwind.com">sunwind@whidbeysunwind.com</a><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>>_______________________________________________<br>
>>List sponsored by Home Power magazine<br>
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>><mailto:<a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.or<br>
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--<br>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~<br>
Jeff Clearwater<br>
Senior Design Engineer<br>
NABCEP (tm) Certified Solar PV Installer<br>
<a href="http://www.nabcep.org/" target="_blank">http://www.nabcep.org/</a><br>
Village Power Design/NorthEast Solar Design<br>
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<br>
Voice: 413-259-3750<br>
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65 Schoolhouse Rd<br>
Amherst, MA 01002<br>
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Message: 2<br>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 23:24:59 -0800<br>
From: Kent Osterberg <<a href="mailto:kent@coveoregon.com">kent@coveoregon.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] utility EDS signage<br>
To: RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>><br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:492510CB.1020708@coveoregon.com">492510CB.1020708@coveoregon.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed<br>
<br>
Phil,<br>
<br>
NEC 690.17 says "Where all terminals of the disconnecting means may be<br>
energized..." It would take a pretty rare malfunction of a grid<br>
connected inverter to energize the load terminals of the utility<br>
disconnect. But we have some AHJs that require this label on every ac<br>
disconnect, all the way back to the utility meter, anyway. The warning<br>
is appropriate on the dc disconnect of almost all inverters because the<br>
capacitors in the inverter take a few minutes to bleed off.<br>
<br>
To me, the bigger hassle are plaques required by 705.10. Can anyone<br>
give me a reasonable explanation for their value in a utility<br>
interactive system? I can understand if there is a grid backup system -<br>
emergency personnel may need to know where to turn off the backup power;<br>
but a grid interactive inverter shuts down when there service is shut<br>
down. It seems to me that this plaque is likely to send an emergency<br>
responder on a wild goose chase.<br>
<br>
Kent Osterberg<br>
Blue Mountain Solar<br>
<br>
Phil Schneider wrote:<br>
> Wrenches,<br>
><br>
> Our utilities require an external AC disconnect between the inverter and<br>
the<br>
> point of interconnection, located next to the meter. In the past, we have<br>
> marked this switch with the language in 690.17 (although no AHJ or utility<br>
> has required it). Because we generally argue against the necessity of<br>
this<br>
> switch, I don't feel it is accurate to say that "terminals on both the<br>
line<br>
> AND load sides may be energized in the open position".<br>
><br>
> Do other Wrenches post this plaque? Is there a way that both line AND<br>
load<br>
> terminals of this switch could be energized? (other than an inverter not<br>
> paying attention to its UL listing?)<br>
><br>
> Thanks again for your thoughts,<br>
> P.<br>
><br>
> Phil Schneider<br>
> Creative Energies<br>
><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
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Message: 3<br>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 06:38:45 -0500<br>
From: "robert ellison" <<a href="mailto:reellison@gmail.com">reellison@gmail.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] inverters/ generators and noise<br>
To: RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>><br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:dae2914c0811200338t53f57516k77425841b255597@mail.gmail.com">dae2914c0811200338t53f57516k77425841b255597@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
<br>
Probably due to the load of the charger, try changing the rpm a little<br>
(higher) if you can. Might help. I have had stoves that wouldn't light under<br>
full charger load. They did better at a somewhat higher rmp (frequency)<br>
<br>
Bob<br>
<br>
On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 12:12 AM, jay peltz <<a href="mailto:jay@asis.com">jay@asis.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
> Hi All,<br>
><br>
> here is along those same lines a question about line noise.<br>
><br>
><br>
> System 15kw diesel generator<br>
><br>
> 4 stack outback at 24v 120v/240vac<br>
><br>
> 3000 amp hr industrial batteries.<br>
><br>
> when genny running, 59.5-60 hz<br>
> voltage 122/244<br>
><br>
><br>
> Symptoms.<br>
><br>
> when charging there is some buzzing on some electrical equipment in the<br>
> house. Stove pizeo won't lite, transformer on furnace runs hot, Fridge<br>
> makes more noise.<br>
> Seems to get worse at end of charge cycle.<br>
><br>
><br>
> Now, with inverter only, no noise, humm, buzz etc.<br>
><br>
> With Genny only no buzz, humm, etc.<br>
><br>
><br>
> Any advice?<br>
><br>
> thanks,<br>
><br>
> jay<br>
><br>
> peltz power<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
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</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Jason Lombard CSBA<br>Open Hand Solar LLC.<br>Pecos, NM. 87552<br>505 795 8646<br><a href="mailto:openhandsolar@gmail.com">openhandsolar@gmail.com</a><br>