<div dir="ltr">When using the AC input the substitute to use the AGS is to use an external AGS Start relay. There are many customers using big generators through the 100 Amp input with no issues. There is a request to modify the AGS to work with the 100 amp AC in.</div><br><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 11:09 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div>Thank you for this information. Regarding the statement, "You can fully use the 100 Amp AC input for Generator input, and it is available at all times, but you will lose the AGS..."</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I don't think MNS tech support knows this. I'm pretty sure Rick told me no, and I know that Ronald unequivocally told me it was not allowed. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">What if the generator was connected to the grid input, but you still programmed the generator Smart Load output for a generator, would the AGS work in that case? Or if there is "Grid" voltage when the generator starts, would that cause the AGS to disengage and then the process would repeat itself in a loop? </div><div><br></div><div><div dir="ltr"><br>Jason Szumlanski<div><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group</span><br style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)</span><br style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956</span></div><div><font color="#333333" face="Roboto, RobotoDraft, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208</font></div></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, May 14, 2025, 10:57 AM William Bryce <<a href="mailto:wlbryce@pineridgeproducts.com" target="_blank">wlbryce@pineridgeproducts.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"> Everyone, Please forgive MNS for not promptly responding to the questions.<div><br></div><div> Midnite Solar does not currently have an official poster for the Wrenches List. Per the rules of the list, MNS is working to get a new Rep to work with the installers as we always have. </div><div><br></div><div>To address the questions that were fielded:</div><div><br></div><div><p style="margin:0px;padding:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial;font-size:10pt">The solar array will continue to power the system and dark start the inverter if needed.</p><p style="margin:0px;padding:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial;font-size:10pt"> </p><p style="margin:0px;padding:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial;font-size:10pt">If you use the machine you can test. Just turn off ALL the Power, including the DC in from the battery. The screen will be dark and when you turn on the PV input the machine will go into standby.</p><p style="margin:0px;padding:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial;font-size:10pt"> </p><p style="margin:0px;padding:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial;font-size:10pt">If the machine shuts down due to a LVCO then it will auto restart (Via PV input) UNLESS the "Min Initiation Startup (off Grid)" setting is not reached. It will charge the battery until that setting is reached then turn on the inverter.</p><p style="margin:0px;padding:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial;font-size:10pt"><br></p><p style="margin:0px;padding:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial;font-size:10pt">If the Shutdown was because of a PV Insulation <u>Fault</u> or some other critical ESS fault it will not restart until that issue is corrected. You can blame that on the UL code writers as it is REQUIRED to get the UL certifications.</p><p style="margin:0px;padding:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial;font-size:10pt"><span style="font-size:10pt"> </span></p><p style="margin:0px;padding:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial;font-size:10pt">We also do full generator passthrough just like all other AIO's. And yes as pointed out several times on the forum the relay for the generator is not closed, as the inverter qualifies the generator before it closes. The reason is that we can use the PV input and the generator at the same time. But, it is monitored so you do not blow us the generator if the PV exceeds the Gen input and the load or charging drops. Is this perfect? No, it needs some work. The current AGS is basic and needs work.</p><p style="margin:0px;padding:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial;font-size:10pt"><br></p><p style="margin:0px;padding:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial;font-size:10pt">You can fully use the 100 Amp AC input for Generator input, and it is available at all times, but you will lose the AGS.</p><p style="margin:0px;padding:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial;font-size:10pt"> </p><p style="margin:0px;padding:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial;font-size:10pt"><br></p><p style="margin:0px;padding:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial;font-size:10pt">Everyone at MNS is taking notes of all the issues with the Current AIO's (all brands including our AIO), and the state of China made / China supported inverters. </p><p style="margin:0px;padding:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial;font-size:10pt"><br></p><p style="margin:0px;padding:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial;font-size:10pt">MNS will be looking to reset the market soon with a New, US Made, Designed, and supported AIO (not just assembled from China parts like some others with the same firmware). Using proven SiC Fet technology (Rosie inverter technology). With a full set of controls for LA batteries, and Generator, just like in the old days. Touch Screen programming, and self hosted web server remote accesses and control, not data sent to the cloud. If you worry about support, and security, then this inverter will address these needs. All the firmware is written in house, PCB boards populated inhouse, and components origins verified. </p><p style="margin:0px;padding:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial;font-size:10pt"> </p><p style="margin:0px;padding:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial;font-size:10pt">We will not say more because of MNS bad reputation of <i>announcing and not delivering</i>, so in the next 6 months, we will have something great to offer. <span style="text-decoration-line:underline">We are going back to our Roots (Trace, Outback, and Magnum, can all be linked back to this team).</span></p><p style="margin:0px;padding:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial;font-size:10pt"><span style="text-decoration-line:underline"><br></span></p><p style="margin:0px;padding:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial;font-size:10pt">Thanks</p><p style="margin:0px;padding:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial;font-size:10pt"><br></p><p style="margin:0px;padding:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial;font-size:10pt">On behalf of Midnite Solar</p></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 9:56 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div dir="auto">That is the idea, but the generator startup is not guaranteed (i.e.out of fuel, battery dead, etc). It's not a failsafe solution. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">The AIO really needs a dedicated GEN input that is not controlled with a NO relay. Or let us use the Grid input for the generator. The generator input logic is severely flawed. If there is an AC source, it should be able to charge the battery without user intervention. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><div dir="ltr"><br>Jason Szumlanski<div><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group</span><br style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)</span><br style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956</span></div><div><font color="#333333" face="Roboto, RobotoDraft, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208</font></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, May 12, 2025, 5:25 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Jason, <div>Cant you just make the AGS turn on the generator before the inverter gets to the LBCO? Maybe this is more difficult if you do not have closed loop comms and the SOC drifts. I am just working through my first Midnite AIO setup now, so I cannot speak to the nuances of how it will work with that yet.</div><div>Cheers,</div><div>Dave</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 4:01 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><u></u>
<div>
<p>That has not been my experience. I have had to manually reboot
Solark systems numerous time off grid. If there is snow on the
array or otherwise low PV output for a few days, the no load draw
of the BMS then takes the battery voltage low enough to shut the
battery off. This would be a different situation with a
knowledgeable owner onsite full time, but for vacation properties,
it will go into complete shut down, not coming back.</p>
<p>Which gets into the manual and tech support for Solark: its
really not clear what the different settings do, and how they
interact. I'm sure there are engineers that know, but they aren't
at Tech support. At least you can change the programming on the
touch screen, and you don't have to get a quirky app up off grid
to do basic changes. </p>
<p>BTW, what happens when the developers quit keeping the App
updated, 10 years from now, and you can't access the programming?
Planned Obsolescence? That 33 yr old Trace Inverter is still
doing its job.....<br>
</p>
<p>Ray Walters<br>
Remote Solar<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div>On 5/12/2025 11:33 AM, MDElectricSolar
via RE-wrenches wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
We have been using the Solark inverter for GTBB and off grid
clients. In the case of low battery cut out the solar does stay
alive in the background and will recharge the batteries when the
sun comes out the next day and turn itself back on and provide AC
power output.
<div><br id="m_9062962785481339633m_3328078641016406336m_-1213852169655435169m_4331509963875159510m_-6964130591934309984m_7553966188653913216m_8704823708038202309m_7932367592428678392m_5606031359930870370m_1127470797220729471m_-1567119144328195709m_8632020677395303090lineBreakAtBeginningOfSignature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Michael D Nelson</div>
<div>MD Electric & Solar, Inc.</div>
<div>707-684-0064 mobile</div>
<div>707-884-1862 office</div>
<div><a href="http://www.mdelectricsolar.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">www.mdelectricsolar.com</a></div>
<div><a href="http://www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar</a></div>
<br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<blockquote type="cite">On May 12, 2025, at 10:13 AM, Ray
Walters via RE-wrenches
<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"><re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org></a> wrote:<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<p>So the bypass switch gets the house power on, and I too
always recommend a hard bypass switch. However, you still
need a 48 v power supply to get the battery system back
up, and that's becoming a serious pain in my aging
backside. Until AIOs with Li+ batteries, lead acid would
have enough voltage to get the charge controller to come
back on, and eventually the customer could get the
inverter back on too. No special trip out. </p>
<p>We need an independent circuit that would sense array
voltage, and wake up the battery, so it could take a
charge: a backup battery for the offgrid battery. Without
that, AIOs and Li+ batteries are not self healing like
Lead Acid. We are going backwards fast, but with an
amazing amount of new Chinese technology driving the
jalopy in reverse. (Danger Will Robinson)<br>
</p>
<p>Ray Walters<br>
Remote Solar<br>
</p>
<div>On 5/12/2025 10:54 AM, Jason
Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">We
always recommend a transfer switch to bypass the
inverter and send generator power to the loads.
Most clients take us up on it. For retrofits,
sometimes there can be space limitations,
however. </div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">As
for the function of the AIO, there is no
integrated mechanical bypass, and since there is
an internal relay controlling the generator input
(or smart load output on that breaker), I think
the default function is for the relay to open when
the inverter turns off. AC voltage on the load
side of the breaker does not close the relay and
turn the inverter back on automatically.</div>
<br clear="all">
</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr"><br>
Jason Szumlanski
<div><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Principal
Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group</span><br style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">NABCEP
Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)</span><br style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Florida
State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956</span></div>
<div><font color="#333333" face="Roboto, RobotoDraft, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">Florida
Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208</font></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, May 12, 2025
at 9:49 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via
RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif">
<div id="m_9062962785481339633m_3328078641016406336m_-1213852169655435169m_4331509963875159510m_-6964130591934309984m_7553966188653913216m_8704823708038202309m_7932367592428678392m_5606031359930870370m_1127470797220729471m_-1567119144328195709m_8632020677395303090m_-2585636671733455182signature">
<div id="m_9062962785481339633m_3328078641016406336m_-1213852169655435169m_4331509963875159510m_-6964130591934309984m_7553966188653913216m_8704823708038202309m_7932367592428678392m_5606031359930870370m_1127470797220729471m_-1567119144328195709m_8632020677395303090m_-2585636671733455182v1signature" style="color:rgb(51,51,51);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">All sounds
wrong to me. Call Midnite. </div>
<div style="color:rgb(51,51,51);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"> </div>
<div style="color:rgb(51,51,51);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Typically
there is a AC bypass mechanical switch that
allows the gen to bypass the inverter and
power loads.</div>
<br>
<pre> </pre>
<pre><strong><span style="font-size:small">Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
<a href="http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/" rel="noopener noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"> </a><a style="color:blue;font-size:11px;font-family:"Lucida Grande",Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-weight:400;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" href="https://offgridsolar1.com/" rel="noopener noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:12pt">https://offgridsolar1.com/</span></a><a href="http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/" rel="noopener noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"> </a>
e-mail <a href="mailto:offgridsolar@sti.net" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">offgridsolar@sti.net</a>
text 209 813 0060</span></strong></pre>
</div>
<p><br>
</p>
<p id="m_9062962785481339633m_3328078641016406336m_-1213852169655435169m_4331509963875159510m_-6964130591934309984m_7553966188653913216m_8704823708038202309m_7932367592428678392m_5606031359930870370m_1127470797220729471m_-1567119144328195709m_8632020677395303090m_-2585636671733455182reply-intro">On
2025-05-12 9:29 am, Jason Szumlanski via
RE-wrenches wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding:0px 0.4em;border-left:2px solid rgb(16,16,255);margin:0px">
<div id="m_9062962785481339633m_3328078641016406336m_-1213852169655435169m_4331509963875159510m_-6964130591934309984m_7553966188653913216m_8704823708038202309m_7932367592428678392m_5606031359930870370m_1127470797220729471m_-1567119144328195709m_8632020677395303090m_-2585636671733455182replybody1">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Maybe I'm missing
something, but it seems like there is a
flaw in the logic for how generator
integration works with this
product. Unlike some of the other AIOs,
you can't put the generator on the Grid
input in an off-grid scenario. You have
to use the Generator smart load breaker,
which isn't a dedicated generator input,
but a programmable circuit. This is
problematic because it seemingly has a
normally open internal relay that closes
only when the inverter is ON. At least,
that's how it seems to work in my
limited experience.</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </div>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Why is this a problem? If
the battery capacity drops below the low
voltage cutoff, the inverter turns off.
You have to turn the inverter ON for the
generator relay to close so you can
charge the battery, but since the
battery is too low, the inverter won't
turn on. You would have to reprogram the
inverter to drop the cutoff voltage/SOC
below the current battery state. For
people who do not want to use AGS, or if
AGS fails to start the generator for any
reason, getting the generator to charge
the battery manually is no easy task.</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </div>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Moreover, turning the
generator on manually when the inverter
is in an OFF state will not pass power
to the loads, and will not turn
the inverter ON automatically. You have
to get the inverter turned ON somehow so
that the generator power can pass
through to the loads. And since the
startup sequence for this inverter is
very quirky, non-intuitive, and
unreliable, that makes the problem even
worse. I'm not sure if you can even turn
the inverter ON when there is generator
input and the battery is too low. I
don't think you can because the relay is
open and the inverter doesn't even see
generator voltage when it is in an OFF
state.</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">This seems like a serious
oversight and a reason to go with one of
the other AIOs on the market. I believe
the Sol-Ark 15K and EG4 18kPV will both
immediately power loads and start
charging when the generator is on,
regardless of whether the generator is
connected to the Grid or Generator
input. Any AC input immediately passes
through to the loads. This is because
those inverters stay "on" when a low
battery condition is met, and they
simply stop using the battery to invert
power if the battery conditions do not
allow it, based on the settings. </div>
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">The logic of the Midnite
AIOs turning "off" when battery cutoff
is met and opening the generator relay
doesn't make sense to me. Am I wrong
about how this works?</div>
</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div> </div>
Jason Szumlanski
<div>Principal Solar Designer</div>
<div>Florida Solar Design Group</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div> </div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr"> </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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<pre>_______________________________________________
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<pre>_______________________________________________
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There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
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