<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;">wow the price has basically doubled <div><br id="lineBreakAtBeginningOfMessage"><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On May 14, 2025, at 10:49 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div dir="auto"><div>I will be using a Chargeverter tomorrow to dark start a set of Pytes. I like the idea of including one of these with every system if the customer will pony up the money.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I'm worried that development of the existing AIO is going to take a backseat to the development of a new US-made model, which could take a significant amount of time to bring to market. I'm hoping MNS we'll continue to make improvements and fix some of these deficiencies.</div><div><br></div><div data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><br>Jason Szumlanski<div><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group</span><br style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)</span><br style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956</span></div><div><font color="#333333" face="Roboto, RobotoDraft, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208</font></div></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, May 14, 2025, 12:20 PM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="line-break:after-white-space"><div>In the case of extra redundancy, I have installed the EG4 Chargeverter and a 30A L14-30 Inlet and made the customer a suitable length L14-30 Extension Cord that they can use with their manual start secondary / tertiary portable generator just in case the primary generator has failed to start. The Chargeverter is quite small and can handle about 5kW of charge just in case… The charge voltage is programmable as is the current. It is inverter and battery agnostic.</div><div><div><br></div><div>The Chargeverter used to be inexpensive compared to what it does. The last time I checked it is over $700 and also always seems to be on backorder. Still worth it. The Chargeverter has two wire start and can start based on voltage and SOC (if that is where the batteries are communicating / not that useful for most cases).</div><div><br></div><div>If the Chargeverter is the primary generator AC to DC Charger, all AIO inverters could benefit from DC Generator = Y / N setting. Reference : Available setting on XW and Outback. </div><div><br></div><div>For that matter, I am sure there are other suitable chargers that can be added as an emergency spare. Ten years ago or more, I added an IOTA charger to 24V FX inverter so the customer could use their Honda 2000 to charge the battery without the warbling electricity going into the house because FX sans PF correction… Remember those fun days?</div><div><br></div><div><div>Grid</div><div>> Inverter / Battery / Solar</div><div>>> Generator</div><div>>>> Generator</div><div>>>>> Candles</div></div><div><br></div><div><br><div><span id="cid:E2294A2B-191D-4257-92BA-DD708AF0B370"><IMG_0168.jpeg></span></div><div><br><div><br></div><div><br id="m_4323612324643080001lineBreakAtBeginningOfMessage"><div>
<div dir="auto" style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;">Maverick Brown<br>Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006<br><b>Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc.</b></div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><b> • Solar Commander Remote Power</b></div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><b> • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection <br></b><a href="mailto:maverick@mavericksolar.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">maverick@mavericksolar.com</a><br>512-460-9825<br></div></div>
</div>
<div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On May 14, 2025, at 8:55 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><div dir="auto"><div dir="auto">That is the idea, but the generator startup is not guaranteed (i.e.out of fuel, battery dead, etc). It's not a failsafe solution. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">The AIO really needs a dedicated GEN input that is not controlled with a NO relay. Or let us use the Grid input for the generator. The generator input logic is severely flawed. If there is an AC source, it should be able to charge the battery without user intervention. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div data-smartmail="gmail_signature" dir="auto"><div dir="ltr"><br>Jason Szumlanski<div><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group</span><br style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)</span><br style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956</span></div><div><font color="#333333" face="Roboto, RobotoDraft, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208</font></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, May 12, 2025, 5:25 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Jason, <div>Cant you just make the AGS turn on the generator before the inverter gets to the LBCO? Maybe this is more difficult if you do not have closed loop comms and the SOC drifts. I am just working through my first Midnite AIO setup now, so I cannot speak to the nuances of how it will work with that yet.</div><div>Cheers,</div><div>Dave</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 4:01 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><u></u>
<div><p>That has not been my experience. I have had to manually reboot
Solark systems numerous time off grid. If there is snow on the
array or otherwise low PV output for a few days, the no load draw
of the BMS then takes the battery voltage low enough to shut the
battery off. This would be a different situation with a
knowledgeable owner onsite full time, but for vacation properties,
it will go into complete shut down, not coming back.</p><p>Which gets into the manual and tech support for Solark: its
really not clear what the different settings do, and how they
interact. I'm sure there are engineers that know, but they aren't
at Tech support. At least you can change the programming on the
touch screen, and you don't have to get a quirky app up off grid
to do basic changes. </p><p>BTW, what happens when the developers quit keeping the App
updated, 10 years from now, and you can't access the programming?
Planned Obsolescence? That 33 yr old Trace Inverter is still
doing its job.....<br>
</p><p>Ray Walters<br>
Remote Solar<br>
</p><p><br>
</p><p><br>
</p>
<div>On 5/12/2025 11:33 AM, MDElectricSolar
via RE-wrenches wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
We have been using the Solark inverter for GTBB and off grid
clients. In the case of low battery cut out the solar does stay
alive in the background and will recharge the batteries when the
sun comes out the next day and turn itself back on and provide AC
power output.
<div><br id="m_4323612324643080001m_-1567119144328195709m_8632020677395303090lineBreakAtBeginningOfSignature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Michael D Nelson</div>
<div>MD Electric & Solar, Inc.</div>
<div>707-684-0064 mobile</div>
<div>707-884-1862 office</div>
<div><a href="http://www.mdelectricsolar.com/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">www.mdelectricsolar.com</a></div>
<div><a href="http://www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar</a></div>
<br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<blockquote type="cite">On May 12, 2025, at 10:13 AM, Ray
Walters via RE-wrenches
<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"><re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org></a> wrote:<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<p>So the bypass switch gets the house power on, and I too
always recommend a hard bypass switch. However, you still
need a 48 v power supply to get the battery system back
up, and that's becoming a serious pain in my aging
backside. Until AIOs with Li+ batteries, lead acid would
have enough voltage to get the charge controller to come
back on, and eventually the customer could get the
inverter back on too. No special trip out. </p><p>We need an independent circuit that would sense array
voltage, and wake up the battery, so it could take a
charge: a backup battery for the offgrid battery. Without
that, AIOs and Li+ batteries are not self healing like
Lead Acid. We are going backwards fast, but with an
amazing amount of new Chinese technology driving the
jalopy in reverse. (Danger Will Robinson)<br>
</p><p>Ray Walters<br>
Remote Solar<br>
</p>
<div>On 5/12/2025 10:54 AM, Jason
Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">We
always recommend a transfer switch to bypass the
inverter and send generator power to the loads.
Most clients take us up on it. For retrofits,
sometimes there can be space limitations,
however. </div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">As
for the function of the AIO, there is no
integrated mechanical bypass, and since there is
an internal relay controlling the generator input
(or smart load output on that breaker), I think
the default function is for the relay to open when
the inverter turns off. AC voltage on the load
side of the breaker does not close the relay and
turn the inverter back on automatically.</div>
<br clear="all">
</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr"><br>
Jason Szumlanski
<div><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Principal
Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group</span><br style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">NABCEP
Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)</span><br style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Florida
State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956</span></div>
<div><font color="#333333" face="Roboto, RobotoDraft, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">Florida
Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208</font></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, May 12, 2025
at 9:49 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via
RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif">
<div id="m_4323612324643080001m_-1567119144328195709m_8632020677395303090m_-2585636671733455182signature">
<div id="m_4323612324643080001m_-1567119144328195709m_8632020677395303090m_-2585636671733455182v1signature" style="color:rgb(51,51,51);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">All sounds
wrong to me. Call Midnite. </div>
<div style="color:rgb(51,51,51);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"> </div>
<div style="color:rgb(51,51,51);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Typically
there is a AC bypass mechanical switch that
allows the gen to bypass the inverter and
power loads.</div>
<br>
<pre> </pre>
<pre><strong><span style="font-size:small">Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
<a href="http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/" rel="noopener noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"> </a><a style="color:blue;font-size:11px;font-family:"Lucida Grande",Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-weight:400;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" href="https://offgridsolar1.com/" rel="noopener noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:12pt">https://offgridsolar1.com/</span></a><a href="http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/" rel="noopener noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"> </a>
e-mail <a href="mailto:offgridsolar@sti.net" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">offgridsolar@sti.net</a>
text 209 813 0060</span></strong></pre>
</div><p><br>
</p><p id="m_4323612324643080001m_-1567119144328195709m_8632020677395303090m_-2585636671733455182reply-intro">On
2025-05-12 9:29 am, Jason Szumlanski via
RE-wrenches wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding:0px 0.4em;border-left:2px solid rgb(16,16,255);margin:0px">
<div id="m_4323612324643080001m_-1567119144328195709m_8632020677395303090m_-2585636671733455182replybody1">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Maybe I'm missing
something, but it seems like there is a
flaw in the logic for how generator
integration works with this
product. Unlike some of the other AIOs,
you can't put the generator on the Grid
input in an off-grid scenario. You have
to use the Generator smart load breaker,
which isn't a dedicated generator input,
but a programmable circuit. This is
problematic because it seemingly has a
normally open internal relay that closes
only when the inverter is ON. At least,
that's how it seems to work in my
limited experience.</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </div>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Why is this a problem? If
the battery capacity drops below the low
voltage cutoff, the inverter turns off.
You have to turn the inverter ON for the
generator relay to close so you can
charge the battery, but since the
battery is too low, the inverter won't
turn on. You would have to reprogram the
inverter to drop the cutoff voltage/SOC
below the current battery state. For
people who do not want to use AGS, or if
AGS fails to start the generator for any
reason, getting the generator to charge
the battery manually is no easy task.</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </div>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Moreover, turning the
generator on manually when the inverter
is in an OFF state will not pass power
to the loads, and will not turn
the inverter ON automatically. You have
to get the inverter turned ON somehow so
that the generator power can pass
through to the loads. And since the
startup sequence for this inverter is
very quirky, non-intuitive, and
unreliable, that makes the problem even
worse. I'm not sure if you can even turn
the inverter ON when there is generator
input and the battery is too low. I
don't think you can because the relay is
open and the inverter doesn't even see
generator voltage when it is in an OFF
state.</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">This seems like a serious
oversight and a reason to go with one of
the other AIOs on the market. I believe
the Sol-Ark 15K and EG4 18kPV will both
immediately power loads and start
charging when the generator is on,
regardless of whether the generator is
connected to the Grid or Generator
input. Any AC input immediately passes
through to the loads. This is because
those inverters stay "on" when a low
battery condition is met, and they
simply stop using the battery to invert
power if the battery conditions do not
allow it, based on the settings. </div>
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">The logic of the Midnite
AIOs turning "off" when battery cutoff
is met and opening the generator relay
doesn't make sense to me. Am I wrong
about how this works?</div>
</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div> </div>
Jason Szumlanski
<div>Principal Solar Designer</div>
<div>Florida Solar Design Group</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div> </div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr"> </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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<pre>_______________________________________________
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_______________________________________________<br>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance<br><br>Pay optional member dues here: <a href="http://re-wrenches.org/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">http://re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>Change listserver email address & settings:<br><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:<br><a href="https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/</a><br><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List rules & etiquette:<br><a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br><br>Check out or update participant bios:<br><a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">http://www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>
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