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<p>William,</p>
<p> I STILL fee like RSS is, as implemented by code and
product development is a lousy solution to a very small problem.
There are other simple safer less expensive, lower maintenance
measures than can be taken to protect first responders from
danger. Just one example with string inverters and thus higher
voltages on the roof is mandate that after the combiner box that's
located within a foot of the array route the metal conduit off the
roof directly behind it into the attic straight down to the joists
perpendicular to the roof plane. </p>
<p> And then train, if even necessary, the fire responder
on the roof anxious to plunge his saw into the roof to not vent
through the array. I believe this is referred to as common sense.
Has this ever happened anyway? Has anyone ever been electrocuted
in any type of first responding situation due to contact with
voltages produced from an array? If so, we have to also consider
damage or harm done by the RSS excess wiring and equipment
failures. Of course micros are inherently "safe" from an RSS
standpoint though there are more connections and equipment failure
points on the roof and in our mountainous territory that means
more often steeper metal roofs. Whew, another whole issue.<br>
</p>
<p> I realize that the DC run from the array combiner to the
inverter is still hot...maybe require that run to be in red metal
conduit labelled "Danger, Always energized"? Yes, I'm still a
string inverter guy.<br>
</p>
<p> With NEM3 in full swing and the federal government
now on the solar warpath we certainly won't have to 'worry' about
a big rush of installs in PG&E/California area which is most
of the state. You thought resi rooftop solar was just for the
well-off before, NEM3 insured that it will remain that way. Maybe
this will give the regulators time to reconsider RSS.</p>
<p>Bill<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Feather River Solar Electric
Bill Battagin, owner
4291 Nelson St. (Shipping)
5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS)
Taylorsville, CA 95983
530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell)
CA. C10 Lic # 874049
Solar Powered since 1982
Home of the Sunny Side Up
</pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/27/2025 5:05 PM, William Miller
via RE-wrenches wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:9520cf0e91669507dca503dfd7455fcc@mail.gmail.com">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Wally,
Todd:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I
have been pondering this discussion since it first
appeared. My conclusion is that you both have valid points
to make:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span
style="font-family:Symbol;color:#1f497d"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">There
are forces at work to make it harder for people to generate
their own power and take revenue away from established
corporations. Large utilities did not initiate net
metering, they were forced to do so by legislation and I am
sure they would like to go back to being the only energy
producers in their service area.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span
style="font-family:Symbol;color:#1f497d"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Not
every new hurdle we face is a product of these forces. Some
are driven by legitimate safety concerns.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">If
we lump these two points together and don’t offer reasoned,
evidence-supported claims to our arguments, we can look like
conspiracy theorists.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">The
solution, in my humble opinion, is to look carefully and
dispassionately at the problems we face, back our
conclusions with facts, and communicate our concerns clearly
and effectively to the public, to our customers and to
legislators and decision makers.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">If
there is a legitimate safety concern, we need to ask
ourselves: Are the proposed solutions realistic? If the
solutions are draconian, unreasonably difficult or
ineffective, then we are not resolving the safety issue.
This does not always mean dark forces are conspiring against
us. It may be that we need to rethink a given solution.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">The
original discussion was about RSS. My view has been changed
by the discussion. I have limited experience with RSS
systems that are not part of an optimizer or micro-inverter
system. I have been fortunate that none of my RSDs have
burst into flames, but there is credible evidence this has
happened. We have seen first-hand testimony that fire
responders have not been adequately trained to activate RSS,
making it useless.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I
disagree with the need to put RSS on ground mounted arrays.
They are required if the feeder enters a building that has
any use other than to house solar power equipment. If you
provide an external disconnect, requiring RSS seems totally
unnecessary.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Furthermore,
UL3741 has me really scratching my head. The original RSS
requirements specified any voltage above 30 as being
hazardous. Then it became 80 volts. Now with UL3741, up to
160 volts is safe? I am reading an <a
href="https://www.mayfield.energy/technical-articles/ul3741/"
moz-do-not-send="true">article</a> that says 1,000 VDC may
be allowed.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">It
seems we have a huge credibility problem here. There is no
consensus on what voltages are unsafe and we have safety
equipment not up to the task. This credibility problem
looks like a conspiracy but it be more accurate to call it a
competency issue. The regulators have been quick to mandate
without a clear understanding of the safety thresholds and
manufacturers have been quick to fill a market gap with
inadequate products.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">It
is a shame Ms. Hren did not respond to my questions about
how this all came about. I don’t mean to put her on the
spot but she offered her credentials as a member of the code
making panel.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Getting
back to my main point, it is frustrating navigating the
complicated regulatory and technical landscape that PV
contracting has become. If we want to advocate for
ourselves, we need to communicate clearly and calmly
supported by facts. Labeling the problems as a conspiracy
won’t win any arguments.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Sincerely,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">William
Miller</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Miller
Solar</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">17395
Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">805-438-5600</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><a
href="http://www.millersolar.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:blue">www.millersolar.com</span></a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">CA
Lic. 773985</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
RE-wrenches [mailto:<a
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Wallace Stahle via RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 19, 2025 10:12 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Wallace Stahle<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] No Mistake Conspiricy?</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">So Todd,</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">What part of the idea or premise that an
industry which produces, distributes and sells electric
energy to end users at great profit, in PG&E's case at
least, desires to exclude self generators from their grid
and plans, lobbies and in fact conspires with other industry
stakeholders to tilt the ground rules in their favor by way
of the CA PUC is ”IDIOTIC”?</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">To think an investor owned utility
selling energy to end users is not working to limit those
same end users from benefiting from self generation is naive
at least. Or even idiotic maybe.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Can you further define what part of this
idea is idiotic vs rational on the utilities part to limit
self generation?</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I understand this topic is not specific
to wrenching and may not belong on this list but given that
getting interconnection agreements seems to be critical to
the list it may be a topic worth considering.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Respectfully</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">Wallace
Stahle</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">Future
Electric Energy Co</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">PO Box
236</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">Willits,
CA 95490</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">707-459-0474</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">Lic.#C10-762093</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt"><a
href="mailto:future@pacific.net"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">future@pacific.net</a></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Feb 18, 2025, at 9:38 AM, Todd
Cory via RE-wrenches <<a
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><strong><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif"">Can
we please keep these idiotic conspiracy theories
off this list.</span></strong><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif""><br>
<br>
</span><strong><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif"">Thank
you...</span></strong><b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif""><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif""><br>
<br>
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif"">On
Tuesday, February 18, 2025 7:13am, "Drake
Chamberlin via RE-wrenches" <<a
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
said:</span></p>
</div>
<div id="SafeStyles1739900188">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:13.5pt"><span
style="font-family:"Courier New"">Hi
David,</span><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Courier New""><br>
<br>
</span><span
style="font-family:"Courier New"">RSS
is no mistake. The War on Solar is real. Due to
a recent computer crash, I am having problems
finding my links documenting the intentional
attack on PV from the Koch Brothers and the
utility industry in general. I will check on
another computer that may still have the
information. It is at a different location.</span><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Courier New""><br>
<br>
</span><span
style="font-family:"Courier New"">I
went on the Wrench list with my concerns when
this was first proposed, until I was told to
stop. Individual homeowner solar is viewed as a
big problem for utility profits. There are other
ways to safeguard firefighters. </span><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Courier New""></span></p>
<div id="signature">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Courier New"">--
</span><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Courier New""></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Courier New"">Cheers,</span><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Courier New""></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Courier New""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Courier New"">Drake
</span><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Courier New""></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Courier New""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><em><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif"">Drake
Chamberlin</span></em><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif""></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><em><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif"">Athens
Electric LLC</span></em><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif""></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><em><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif"">Ohio
Electrical Contractor’s License 44810</span></em><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif""></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><em><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif"">NABCEP
Certified PV Installation Professional</span></em><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif""></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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</pre>
</blockquote>
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