<div dir="auto">Is there a different engineer you can hire to stamp this job?</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Mar 20, 2025 at 10:11 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="m_-1170397948068979694WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Jay:</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">3R is for protection from falling water, like rain or dripping water.  This is not protection against spraying water.   <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEMA_enclosure_types" target="_blank" style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">NEMA 4</a> is for protection from spraying water.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">More random thoughts about the discussion that may or may not be relevant:</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p><p class="m_-1170397948068979694MsoListParagraph"><span style="font-family:Symbol;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><span style="font-family:Symbol">·<span style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size-adjust:none;font-kerning:auto;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-feature-settings:normal">        </span></span></span><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">The original post indicated there are practical reasons not to proceed with the project.  Coupled with the engineers reticence it seems another option or some mitigation is called for.  </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p><p class="m_-1170397948068979694MsoListParagraph"><span style="font-family:Symbol;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><span style="font-family:Symbol">·<span style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size-adjust:none;font-kerning:auto;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-feature-settings:normal">        </span></span></span><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">To be a good engineer one must be a good communicator.  It was said the engineer closed off discussion.  It may be he presented his best case as to why not and now wants to move on.</span></p><p class="m_-1170397948068979694MsoListParagraph"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p><p class="m_-1170397948068979694MsoListParagraph"><span style="font-family:Symbol;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><span style="font-family:Symbol">·<span style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size-adjust:none;font-kerning:auto;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-feature-settings:normal">        </span></span></span><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">If the sole objection the engineer had was based on code compliance, it sounds like the engineer may not have a watertight case (pun intended).</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p><p class="m_-1170397948068979694MsoListParagraph"><span style="font-family:Symbol;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><span style="font-family:Symbol">·<span style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size-adjust:none;font-kerning:auto;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-feature-settings:normal">        </span></span></span><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Design work is all about decision making.  I ask myself:</span></p><p class="m_-1170397948068979694MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:1in"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">1.<span style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size-adjust:none;font-kerning:auto;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-feature-settings:normal">   </span></span></span><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Is it safe?</span></p><p class="m_-1170397948068979694MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:1in"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">2.<span style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size-adjust:none;font-kerning:auto;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-feature-settings:normal">   </span></span></span><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Is it legal?</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.25in;text-indent:0.5in"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Ideally both answers are Yes.  </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.25in;text-indent:0.5in"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">If 1 is a No then it is time for a redesign.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.75in"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">If 1 is Yes and 2 is No and there is no easy alternative to the design I try to get a waiver.  I might talk with the building department or Fire Marshall and make my case.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p><p class="m_-1170397948068979694MsoListParagraph"><span style="font-family:Symbol;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><span style="font-family:Symbol">·<span style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size-adjust:none;font-kerning:auto;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-feature-settings:normal">        </span></span></span><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Maybe it’s time to think inside the box:  Could a removable spray hood be fitted over the pump?</span></p></div></div><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="m_-1170397948068979694WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">William</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Miller Solar</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">805-438-5600</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><a href="http://www.millersolar.com/" target="_blank" style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:blue">www.millersolar.com</span></a></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">CA Lic. 773985</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p><div><div style="border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;padding:3pt 0in 0in;border-color:rgb(181,196,223) currentcolor currentcolor"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> Jay [mailto:<a href="mailto:jay.peltz@gmail.com" target="_blank" style="font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">jay.peltz@gmail.com</a>] <br><b style="font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">Sent:</b> Thursday, March 20, 2025 9:22 AM<br><b style="font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">To:</b> <a href="mailto:william@millersolar.com" target="_blank" style="font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">william@millersolar.com</a>; RE-wrenches<br><b style="font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] 210.8</span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><div><p class="MsoNormal">If the equipment is 3R outdoor rated then it should be fine. Otherwise I do like the partition idea. </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">A story I recently heard from a buddy was almost exactly the same situation and an earthquake broke the line after the pressure pump that sprayed water directly into the 2 Outback vfx inverters. Killing rhem both. </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Jay</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><br><br></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt">On Mar 20, 2025, at 9:53 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>> wrote:</p></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Friends:</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">If there is a practical reason why something should not be done then the code is irrelevant.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">I do not like installing electrical equipment near plumbing so I get it.  Maybe a partition or wing wall could be implemented to protect from spray if there is a leak?</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">William</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Miller Solar</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">805-438-5600</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><a href="http://www.millersolar.com/" target="_blank" style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">www.millersolar.com</a></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">CA Lic. 773985</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> RE-wrenches [mailto:<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank" style="font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] <b style="font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">On Behalf Of </b>Lou Russo via RE-wrenches<br><b style="font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">Sent:</b> Thursday, March 20, 2025 8:39 AM<br><b style="font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">To:</b> Jason Szumlanski<br><b style="font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">Cc:</b> Lou Russo; RE-wrenches<br><b style="font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] 210.8</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><div><p class="MsoNormal">Jason, </p><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">That is my understanding as well. But he feels strongly enough that he will pull out from the project if I don't comply and he does not want to discuss it further. It is his license so he can do what he wants to do.</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">I have been working with him for 15 years and he is usually reasonably, so it makes me wonder why he is standing his ground.</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">He does not even want to have a general discussion about 210.8.</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Very odd. </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Mar 20, 2025, 11:07 AM Jason Szumlanski <<a href="mailto:jason@floridasolardesigngroup.com" target="_blank">jason@floridasolardesigngroup.com</a>> wrote:</p></div><blockquote style="border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;border-style:none none none solid;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204)"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_-1170397948068979694gmaildefault"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">210.8 covers GFCI protection for outlets and receptacles. Hard-wired branch circuits and feeders of a PV and ESS system are not considered outlets or receptacles.</span></span><br clear="all"></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_-1170397948068979694gmaildefault"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">If I am not mistaken, each subsection specifically mentions outlets and/or receptacles. Even the section about mini-splits is talking about cord and plug connected units, not hard-wired appliances.</span></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_-1170397948068979694gmaildefault"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">The entirety of 210 is for branch circuits only, so feeders would not fall under this section.</span></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_-1170397948068979694gmaildefault"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Hopefully that helps!</span></span></p></div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><br>Jason Szumlanski</p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Roboto;color:rgb(51,51,51)">Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group<br>NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)<br>Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Roboto;color:rgb(51,51,51)">Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208</span></p></div></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Mar 20, 2025 at 10:10 AM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>> wrote:</p></div><blockquote style="border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;border-style:none none none solid;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204)"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Aloha All,</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">My engineer is pushing back on our design, which calls for a battery and load center to be installed within 6ft of the water pump and filter, the inverter is 7ft away. He is citing NEC 2020 210.8 and the need for GFCI protection. </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Now besides <span style="background:repeat yellow">the practical reason for not doing this</span>, I can not find a code reference preventing our proposed location for the battery and load center. </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">This is for an off-grid new construction home with the PV equipment in the garage, using a Sol-Ark 15k and Discover Rack Mount batteries. </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Any input?</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Aloha,</p><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Lou Russo </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Owner</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:lou@spreesolarsystems.com" target="_blank">lou@spreesolarsystems.com</a></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Office - 808 345 6762</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Spree Solar Systems LLC </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">CT-34322</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt">_______________________________________________<br>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance<br><br>Pay optional member dues here: <a href="http://re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">http://re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>Change listserver email address & settings:<br><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:<br><a href="https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/" target="_blank">https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/</a><br><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List rules & etiquette:<br><a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm" target="_blank">http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br><br>Check out or update participant bios:<br><a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">http://www.members.re-wrenches.org</a></p></blockquote></div></blockquote></div><p class="MsoNormal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