<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Seems like there has been talk of rescinding RSD requirements before on this forum. It also seems that it might gain some traction if a dedicated group of installers spoke up to the right people (Code Making Panel for instance) and put some time into it. I agree that at the very least we need reliable RSD equipment, and my preference would be less vs more.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Does anybody know if any sort of RSD is being required in Europe (not that we follow their electrical codes/ideas…just curious)???</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div class="">
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<div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Feb 17, 2025, at 12:30 PM, david quattro via RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" class="">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="auto" class="">It seems anecdotal until it happens to you.</div><div dir="auto" class=""> My mention of civil disobedience has been answered clearly with a “No” in this forum, and I'm fine to hear that.</div><div dir="auto" class=""> I'll clarify a few points as to why I honestly think RSD has been a huge and costly mistake. I genuinely think RSD requirements should be terminated immediately. If the technology were more robust and if it worked consistently I wouldn't protest. But <b class="">all</b> the products I've tried have been trouble.</div><div dir="auto" class=""> William, respectfully your analogy to seat belts is not an appropriate comparison to Rapid Shutdown. Seat-belts were required in all new cars starting in 1968 because there was statistical evidence supporting their tremendous efficacy in saving human life. Currently seat belts save about 15,000 lives per year.</div><div dir="auto" class=""> Contrasting to RSD: was implemented because of the following paranoid fairytale scenario - “A firefighter is on a burning solar roof in the daytime, and wearing a metal axe at their hip. the poor guy/gal falls into live solar glass, and shatters it. The fall is so forceful that the heavy-duty fireman’s suit is punctured. Electricity conducts through the axe blade, through the suit, contacts the skin, and a DC circuit is completed through their body.”</div><div dir="auto" class=""> As far as I know, this has never happened once anywhere on earth. Let’s be honest - this scenario has an incredibly low chance of ever happening in all the future of humanity. So considering that RSD has never helped anyone yet, and probably never will... How many fires can be attributed to RSD? How much property damage has occurred because of these fires?</div><div dir="auto" class=""> <span style="font-family: -apple-system, helveticaneue; background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class="">The best path to safety for firefighters </span><span style="font-family: -apple-system, helveticaneue;" class="">is by preventing fire disasters in the first place. Fires spread. Any fire that happens endangers </span><span style="background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); font-family: -apple-system, helveticaneue;" class="">property owners, tenants, business owners, neighbors, shoppers, bystanders, nearby forests, etc. RSD manufacturers aren't doing a good job right now, so we are seeing low quality unreliable electronics on the roof. I will stick my neck out and admit that installers are not always perfect. Humans make mistakes - sometimes in initial construction, and sometimes during repair and maintenance (i.e. when hunting down failed RSD's which happens far more than it should).</span></div><div dir="auto" class=""><span style="background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); font-family: -apple-system, helveticaneue;" class=""> At this time, these devices are not being designed to withstand reality. When problems happen, manufacturers are quibbling. They ignore you until you go away, or until you sue them.</span></div><div dir="auto" class=""><span style="font-family: -apple-system, helveticaneue; background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0); border-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=""> This level of "safety" is not important, and in fact RSD is causing fires every year.</span></div></div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Feb 15, 2025 at 11:38 AM William Miller <<a href="mailto:william@millersolar.com" target="_blank" class="">william@millersolar.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-US" class=""><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" class="">David, Ray:</span></p><div class=""><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" class="">I have not had any problems with the Tigo RSS equipment I have installed and I have had minimal problems with optimizers and micro-inverters (which are also RSS equipment). Apparently others have had failures. We don’t know statically how serious this problem is—the posts here are purely anecdotal.</span></p><div class=""><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" class="">We also have not heard from the other side of the debate: the fire fighters. </span></p><div class=""><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" class="">Based on lack of verifiable information I can not personally conclude that RSS is all problem and no benefit.</span></p><div class=""><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" class="">To declare that the concept is flawed because the equipment available is not reliable is like saying we should not be required to install airbags because a bad batch of them was manufactured. We are seeing problems with the equipment needed to implement a safety requirement. That observation does not logically conclude the safety requirement is not valuable.</span></p><div class=""><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" class="">I hesitate to dismiss any safety requirement out of hand. Safety systems are designed to save lives and protect from injury, and most of them do. I am glad to have anti-lock brakes, smoke detectors and air bags. I have also found it quite handy to initiate RSS to allow me to work more safely on solar circuits.</span></p><div class=""><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" class="">Does anyone on this installers forum have contacts in the fire-response community that can comment on the their side of the issue? If RSD is really necessary for safety, then I will do my best to install good equipment properly and hold manufacturers accountable for shoddy solutions. If RSD is not that effective we need to discuss undoing the code requirements.</span></p><div class=""><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" class="">Sincerely,</span></p><div class=""><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" class="">William Miller</span></p><div class=""><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" class="">Miller Solar</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" class="">17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" class="">805-438-5600</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" class=""><a href="http://www.millersolar.com/" style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif" target="_blank" class=""><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:blue" class="">www.millersolar.com</span></a></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" class="">CA Lic. 773985</span></p><div class=""><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div class=""><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif" class="">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif" class=""> RE-wrenches [mailto:<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" style="font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif" target="_blank" class="">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] <b style="font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif" class="">On Behalf Of </b>david quattro via RE-wrenches<br class=""><b style="font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif" class="">Sent:</b> Saturday, February 15, 2025 6:05 AM<br class=""><b style="font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif" class="">To:</b> RE-wrenches<br class=""><b style="font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif" class="">Cc:</b> david quattro<br class=""><b style="font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif" class="">Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience</span></p><div class=""> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">RSD is the worst thing to happen to solar. Has anyone considered civil disobedience?</p></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"> I wonder what would happen if all the installers banded together and refused, as a united industry ‘brotherhood.’ WE are the ones stuck with the bullshit in the aftermath.</p></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"> I’m not being snarky here , this a genuine question to the group: Does anyone have <u class="">good</u> experience with RSD? i.e. you’re really glad RSD was there, and you genuinely feel safer? you’re glad and happy to comply with this code and you look forward to continuing to use RSD for the rest of your career?</p></div><div class=""><div class=""> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div><div class=""><div class=""> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div><div class=""><div class=""> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div><div class=""><div class=""> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div class=""><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 3:40 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank" class="">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>> wrote:</p></div><blockquote style="border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;border-style:none none none solid;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204)" class=""><div class=""><p class="">it seems silly that we are required to install these extra pieces of equipment for added "safety", that are actually a fire hazard on the roof. Just to survey again: how many homes have been saved by RSD? How many fire fighters have actually actuated the RSD system, so that they could hack through the array to vent the roof? </p><p class="">I think it should only be required if you have covered so much of the roof with PV, that the fire dept can't access uncovered roof to do their venting. The whole premise of RSD is flawed. IMHO, its just another effort to block the wider adoption of solar. </p><p class="">When it comes to off grid, RSD causes such a decrease in reliability to amount to a decrease in safety, due to possible loss of communications, water, and heat. Add the fire hazard and RSD is really not making our customers' lives better. </p><p class="">Ray Walters<br class="">Remote Solar</p></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div>
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