<div dir="ltr"><div>We started installing Powerwalls in 2017, so it's been a while since we've bought AGMs except for system maintenance purposes. That said, I'll second William Miller's note that <a href="https://www.eastpennmanufacturing.com/products/deka-unigy-ii-2/">Deka Unigy II AGMs </a>are very robust. Most of our AGM systems from that 7+ year old timeframe (US Battery and Fullrivers, mostly) need battery replacements but we have one 12 year old system with these Unigy II AGMs that is running strong as far as I can tell. I think Unigy batteries were used by cell phone station providers to provide backup, so you can imagine the importance of having top notch reliability. That said, I recall Unigy being very expensive and also very heavy.</div><div><br></div><div>August</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Jan 13, 2025 at 5:59 AM Blair May via RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;">Unfortunately for both you and the client, you were not made aware of their limited charging resources. $20 K is quite a few strings of the Surrette L16 AGM. I too am a leadite especially w/ clients who are beginning their experience w/ Off grid living. Refractometer, documentation AND training. For my batteries I have used 2 manufactures in my 30+ years Surrette and the Deka MK series AGM batteries, & both companies are still around to support me & my clients. AGM batteries have served my clients and our home very well. Now a days more solar and less lead is far easier then it was in the 90s. One of the few devices, we as installers have for defense of thermal runaways would be a temp sensor. The few times I have seen issues w/ any battery and thermal runaway is mice have chewed thru the sensor wire or it was thrown in the trash w/ all the rest of BOS that came w/ the inverter or CC. With a FLA battery, is no temp sensor & little to no electrolyte in the cell due to negligence. Surrette in their battery manuals include min & max charge rates which are probably higher then most perhaps due to their materials used in their plate construction. The MK series also have specs (& engineers that are available) included, as for their “MK Space Saver series despite it’s upfront cost its always been great performance.<div><div>I often see multiple strings far exceeding manu’s recommendations and poor/incorrect battery wiring. Yep big batteries can be a pain to install and using buss bars to wire multiple strings can add cost but amortizing these additional costs over many year battery life cycle its well worth it.</div><div>These days 99% of the calls I am getting is about problems w/ the lithium products. You folks who are up to date on the lithium products keep us leadites educated cause I / we have yet to drink the koolaid. Tump</div><div><div><div><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Jan 12, 2025, at 4:13 PM, solareagle--- via RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><div>One comment with regard to Rolls AGM’s. I, like yourself, have sold very few AGM’s over the years, preferring lead acid. But I supplied a set of Rolls AGM’s to a client who self installed and didn’t recognize the need for a minimum 85a charge. His inverter/pv combination was unable to supply that and the batteries sulphated within months to an unrecoverable state. $20k down the drain. Most other AGM’s get by with around 50a charge.<div><br></div><div>Ron</div><div>
<div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Jan 12, 2025, at 12:55 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><div dir="auto"><div dir="ltr"></div><div dir="ltr">You guys are making my point. </div><div dir="ltr">Melting the cases is not a fire. And every melted agm case is due to incorrect charging mechanisms. </div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">But there have been some cases on this site of catastrophic lithium failures. </div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">I am starting to see people asking about fires and lithium. </div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">These batteries are in the house. Not my design and not an easy fix to move them. </div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Thanks again</div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Jay </div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br><blockquote type="cite">On Jan 12, 2025, at 10:52 AM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="auto"><div>I had the exact same thing happen(even down to the crowbar) with the only set of full river 400 6's I've ever installed. I personally lean away from agm though we've had pretty good luck with the Outback and Northstar PLR platform over the year..</div><div><br></div><div><br> </div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Jan 12, 2025, 9:39 AM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><u></u>
<div><p>The only thermal runaway event I've ever seen, was with AGM in an
over insulated battery box. Got so hot that the cases fused to
each other, and we had to pry the batteries apart with a crow
bar. She wants ZERO risk of fire? She needs to live in a
concrete bunker with no electricity at all. Every electrical
connection, every outlet, every appliance has a risk of fire.
Period.</p><p>Ray Walters<br>
Remote Solar<br>
</p>
<div>On 1/12/2025 9:39 AM, Tyrone Houck via
RE-wrenches wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="auto">
<div>I hate to be the one to say it but LFP has arguably less
fire risk than agm. A short circuit in an agm could be
disastrous and AGM is not necessarily any safer or less prone
to thermal runaway events than modern LFP. I'd recommend a
cobalt free LFP like homegrid, simpliphi, or midnite if it
were me..</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Jan 11, 2025, 3:38 PM
jay via RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>I was going to try
and steer her towards lithium but she wants zero, absolutely
zero chance of fire, so no lithium.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>great batteries though</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>jay<br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br id="m_4366177297402241445m_-6779490390839839746m_5650226487739232990lineBreakAtBeginningOfMessage">
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Jan 11, 2025, at 4:35 PM, MD Electric &
Solar via RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">30KWH of LFP from
discover energy, fits in one enclosure, around
$14000.00</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Enclosure is
indoor/outdoor rated.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><a href="https://discoverenergysys.com/products/lithium-batteries/aes-rackmount" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://discoverenergysys.com/products/lithium-batteries/aes-rackmount</a></div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><a href="https://discoverenergysys.com/products/accessories/slimline-enclosure" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://discoverenergysys.com/products/accessories/slimline-enclosure</a></div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Jan
11, 2025 at 3:31 PM jay via RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">HI
Willam <br>
<br>
Thanks for the input.<br>
I didn’t know that trojan was sold, and from
what you say, yeah scratch them off. <br>
<br>
It’s currently at 30kwh. And thats probably a
good size. <br>
As always, cost and time is a factor. <br>
<br>
I’ll check the others out.<br>
<br>
jay<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
> On Jan 11, 2025, at 4:17 PM, William
Miller <<a href="mailto:william@millersolar.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">william@millersolar.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
> <br>
> Jay:<br>
> <br>
> What AH or Kwh level are you looking for?<br>
> <br>
> Trojan was acquired by another company a
few years ago and quality had gone<br>
> downhill.<br>
> <br>
> Rolls is very sensitive to high
temperatures. They will deny a warranty<br>
> claim if all of your parameters are not
exactly right.<br>
> <br>
> For larger AH systems:<br>
> <br>
> I like the Full River DC-400-2. You
might be able to do a one string<br>
> installation.<br>
> <br>
> Unigy II is a great system. Very
robust. Hard to deliver but I can offer<br>
> tips. Lots of AH size options.<br>
> <br>
> William<br>
> <br>
> Miller Solar<br>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422<br>
> 805-438-5600<br>
> <a href="http://www.millersolar.com/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">www.millersolar.com</a><br>
> CA Lic. 773985<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> -----Original Message-----<br>
> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]
On<br>
> Behalf Of jay via RE-wrenches<br>
> Sent: Saturday, January 11, 2025 2:48 PM<br>
> To: RE-wrenches<br>
> Cc: jay<br>
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGM battery
recommendations<br>
> <br>
> Hi All<br>
> <br>
> I have a customer what is set on AGM.<br>
> <br>
> It been so long since I’ve bought any,
wondering if there are any<br>
> recommendations?<br>
> <br>
> The ones I’m looking at:<br>
> <br>
> Rolls S6-460AGM-RE<br>
> <br>
> Full river DC-400-6<br>
> <br>
> Trojan SAES 06 375 6V<br>
> <br>
> sun Xtender brand.<br>
> <br>
> What’s interesting is the trojan has
about 3000 cycles vs the others at<br>
> around 1250 cycles to 50%.<br>
> Im wondering if that is a marketing idea
or if its real.<br>
> <br>
> thanks in advance<br>
> <br>
> jay<br>
>
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<span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance</span><br><span></span><br><span>Pay optional member dues here: <a href="http://re-wrenches.org/" target="_blank">http://re-wrenches.org</a></span><br><span></span><br><span>List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a></span><br><span></span><br><span>Change listserver email address & settings:</span><br><span><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a></span><br><span></span><br><span>There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:</span><br><span><a href="https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/" target="_blank">https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/</a></span><br><span><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a></span><br><span></span><br><span>List rules & etiquette:</span><br><span><a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm" target="_blank">http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a></span><br><span></span><br><span>Check out or update participant bios:</span><br><span><a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/" target="_blank">http://www.members.re-wrenches.org</a></span><br><span></span><br></div></blockquote></div>_______________________________________________<br>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance<br><br>Pay optional member dues here: <a href="http://re-wrenches.org/" target="_blank">http://re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>Change listserver email address & settings:<br><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:<br><a href="https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/" target="_blank">https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/</a><br><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List rules & etiquette:<br><a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm" target="_blank">http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br><br>Check out or update participant bios:<br><a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">http://www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance<br><br>Pay optional member dues here: <a href="http://re-wrenches.org/" target="_blank">http://re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>Change listserver email address & settings:<br><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:<br><a href="https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/" target="_blank">https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/</a><br><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List rules & etiquette:<br><a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm" target="_blank">http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br><br>Check out or update participant bios:<br><a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">http://www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br></div></blockquote></div><br><div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Times;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Times;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br><br></div><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Times;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br></div><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Times;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br></div><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Times;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br></div><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Times;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">"We must all learn to live together as brothers,</div><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Times;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"> or we all will perish as fools."</div><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Times;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">MLK</div><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Times;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br></div><br></div></div><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Times;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br>
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