<div dir="auto"><div>I don't think that's how LBCO works exactly with AIOs. If the Sol-Ark reaches the "Shutdown" voltage parameter, it stops inverting, but when PV is available again it does charge the battery and will start inverting again when the "Restart" voltage is reached. The Shutdown parameter doesn't actually "shut down" the inverter. It just stops inverting. I will continue to send performance data via the comms dongle during this time as well.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Of course, the draw from the inverter itself can cause the battery to continue to get depleted and a LiPO battery could eventually reach a point where it's BMS shuts down. This is more problematic with small battery banks relative to the idle consumption of the inverter. For large battery banks this is a non-issue as long as the voltage parameters are set conservatively.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">But for sure the old school systems are hard to beat for reliability, or maybe better put, resiliency and redundancy. Unfortunately they require more hands on maintenance and "tinkering" than newer options, and there are more components to fail. They are also harder to design and install. With time being so valuable, it's getting impossible to support older systems in a profitable way.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">We need to challenge the AIO makers to understand the resilience and redundancy that off-grid systems need. The flexibility to use them on or off-grid is great, but we need them to be great at both, not just good if they want to play in both markets. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I reject the "listing requirements made us do it" argument. There must be a workaround to ensure that a ground fault on a single PV string connected to one inverter would cause an AC output failure on all paralleled inverters. That doesn't pass the logic test because you could simply turn off that inverter without physically changing any wiring to resume power production. In fact, I proved that today by simply turning off the DC input switch. That should happen automatically!</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Jason Szumlanski </div><div dir="auto">Florida Solar Design Group </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Oct 11, 2024, 5:26 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><u></u>
<div>
<p>Another reason to do separate charge controllers is Low battery.
If the AIO inverter hits its LBCO, then it takes out the PV input
as well. Then the draw of the BCM takes what's left in the
battery, and you're into a dark start. Generator won't even
help. AIOs are easy to install, but not as full proof as DC
coupled PV systems. Also, the inter communication is a major
issue. I've seen inter connected charge controllers take each
other out, which really defeats the redundancy of having multiple
units. I'm sure many on the list will question my wisdom; but I
usually don't interconnect any of the equipment from a comms stand
point. I use open loop charging based on voltage. <br>
</p>
<p>I once had a pinched temp sensor, that thought the batteries were
at 5000 deg Kelvin. It shut all 4 inverters down. My most
reliable multiple inverter setup is a four SW4048 system that is
now 24 years old. Each inverter feeds one leg of two load
centers. No comms, No 240 vac loads. No shut downs. That is the
gold standard, and none of the AIO stuff, nor the module level
rapid shutdown etc, can even get close to the level of reliability
we had in the past. In the off grid world, shut downs can be life
threatening, and all the additional "safety" stuff added to the
code since, has actually made my off grid customers less safe. <br>
</p>
<p>You have to think what happens if the battery gets low, and no
one is home? Can it recover on its own, like a traditional DC
coupled Lead acid system? Basically, If the system can't hit
LBCO, recharge the next day, and automatically turn loads back on,
we've gone backwards in our designs, and equipment selection. AIOs
are inferior if they can't achieve this basic functionality. If
UL standards are causing this, then those standards are incorrect
for critical off grid and backup applications. <br>
</p>
<p>Ray Walters<br>
Remote Solar<br>
</p>
<div>On 10/10/2024 4:02 PM, Eric Smiley via
RE-wrenches wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Install stand-alone charge controllers. That is the
only way to get redundancy.<br clear="all">
<div>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
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<div style="font-size:10px;line-height:10px;width:348px;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Viridian
Solar honours the ancestral grounds on which
we live and provide services, recognising that
these lands are unceded Indigenous territory.
We are steadfast in our commitment to
reconciliation and acknowledge the rich
history and traditions that characterise this
land that we all consider home.</div>
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<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, 10 Oct 2024 at 14:59,
Lou Russo via RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">Aloha All,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thank you Jason. This is a huge and surprising issue.
So much so that I dropped what I was doing and called
Sol-Ark to confirm. Mind you this was level 1 support, but
I was told this is what the Sol-Arks are supposed to do
and it is a feature not a bug. Their take is if there is
any fault on any one string, the Sol-Ark assumes the worst
and shuts everything down. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I wonder what solutions could be implemented on future
installs to prevent this from happening? </div>
<div><br clear="all">
<div>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">Aloha,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Lou Russo </div>
<div>Owner</div>
<div><a href="mailto:lou@spreesolarsystems.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">lou@spreesolarsystems.com</a></div>
<div>Office - 808 345 6762</div>
<div>Spree Solar Systems LLC </div>
<div>CT-34322</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at
11:45 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">I
think it's more likely water in a J-box or possibly
physical damage, but someone passed by the property
and did not observe any physical damage to the
array.</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr"><br>
Jason Szumlanski
<div><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Principal
Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group</span><br style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">NABCEP
Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)</span><br style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Florida
State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956</span></div>
<div><font color="#333333" face="Roboto, RobotoDraft, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">Florida
Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208</font></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Oct 10, 2024
at 5:41 PM Jay <<a href="mailto:jay.peltz@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">jay.peltz@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="ltr">Jason </div>
<div dir="ltr">What’s the possibllity it was a
lighting strike?</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">Jay</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<blockquote type="cite">On Oct 10, 2024, at
2:57 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">We have been talking a
lot recently about all-in-ones. I just had
a massive fail during Hurricane Milton
with a quad Sol-Ark 15K off-grid system
that deserves some discussion about
whether AIO is a good idea if it can't
build in some resilience to errors. I'm
not sure if the new Midnite unit is better
in this respect, but this is what happened
to the Sol-Ark system...</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Four inverters, each with
4 strings of PV paralleled to 2 MPPT per
inverter. One of the slave units developed
some sort of PV DC fault during the storm.
This caused the slave inverter to shut
down and throw an error, which in turn
caused a parallel fault across all four
inverters. Power output ceases at that
point. Apparently the system keeps
resetting because I have a cell modem that
uploads data to Sol-Ark, but that cell
modem is powered by the inverter outputs,
so it must be getting power at least
intermittently. The rest of the loads are
basically flatlined according to the
Sol-Ark data. It's mostly air
conditioners, so they probably can't turn
on fast enough before the PV fault causes
another shutdown.</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">So, in essence, one of 16
strings of PV develops a fault, and that
causes all four inverters to malfunction?
What is the point of redundancy if a fault
of one results in a fault of all?! If
there is a true PV input fault, shouldn't
that just shut down that MPPT, or perhaps
all of the PV DC input to that inverter?
And why can't this inverter continue to
invert power from the batteries and charge
from a generator when there is a DC input
fault that could be programmatically
isolated and ignored?</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">This is a bad design in
my opinion, and something I hadn't
considered. If the faulted inverter can't
function with a DC input fault, it should
just take itself out of the game. (This is
120/240 split phase, BTW). Is this how all
AIO inverters work? One inverter fault on
the DC side kills all paralleled units' AC
output? Not good.</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">This is a completely
off-grid system on a remote island with no
vehicle access, so it's not exactly easy
to do a "truck roll" on this one,
especially post-hurricane. To make matters
worse, the generator was running at the
time of the fault, as it was being
signaled to run because the battery had
reached the assigned charge voltage. The
fault also killed the 2-wire start signal
from the master, so the system also
stopped passing through generator power to
the loads. The house is dark.</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Jason Szumlanski</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Florida Solar Design
Group</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
</div>
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_______________________________________________<br>
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Pay optional member dues here: <a href="http://re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://re-wrenches.org</a><br>
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