<div dir="ltr">Ray,<div>I'm in the same situation. My strategic plan was to work into early old age ( in 20-25 years). But now, I spend half of my time troubleshooting and replacing equipment on my dime. Between that, competing with Grid-Tied guys, and having to justify my mark-up to clients comparing my pricing to NAZ's, It's just not worth it anymore. Where I'm at, there's little commercial or industrial electrical work to be had so it's likely my future is pulling rope through attics and crawl spaces.</div><div><br></div><div>Yes, the Magnum equipment produced for the first five or so years was extremely reliable. Same for the Outback, maybe less so. I was thinking that the only repairs I had to make on SWs was replacing transfer relays and that was only a few out of countless systems. I think it was Bob-O who many years ago introduced me to the saying "it's a race to the bottom" : )</div><div><br></div><div>I tried EG4's in my own system when at 15 years my Rolls reached the end. I also tried them in a customers system. Absolute nightmare. I don't know which is worse, the batteries or Signature Solar.</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Apr 25, 2024 at 10:36 AM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><u></u>
<div>
<p>Hi Michael;</p>
<p>I don't think its 12v, I have old Trace 48 v systems still
humming along 24 years later, too. Some of it, is the customers.
The old school off grid folks knew how to conserve energy, watch
the sun, and were not going to call unless they couldn't fix it
themselves. </p>
<p>Also, the equipment was built much better back then for sure, I
have a new Magnum install that is just a disaster, voltage dips
below 100 vac, every time any larger load goes on (well pump,
garbage disposal, fridge, coffee maker) and I've replaced 3 BMK
battery monitors under warranty so far. Apparently you can NOT
disconnect or connect the BMK with its built in 4 pin <b>connector</b>,
or it will smoke the unit. That is a new problem, they used to be
robust. I have many older Magnum systems that are great. Magnum
quality has taken a huge dive since being acquired by Sensata.<br>
</p>
<p>If it wasn't for Trace, old Outback, and old Magnum stuff being
reliable, I would have gone out of business decades ago. Now it
looks like I need to find a new line of work, just a few years
before retirement, because manufacturers no longer prioritize
reliability. Meanwhile Li+ is what new customers expect, yet its
still not ready for prime time, either. I have an installer buddy
that is having all sorts of trouble with an EG4 battery setup, and
the installation isn't even complete. He's already had to dark
start them several times, and now they won't even stay operational
for more than a few minutes. The cheapo BMS lears its ugly head
once again. All we're doing lately is fixing stuff less than 5
years old. <br>
</p>
<p>Ray Walters<br>
Remote Solar<br>
</p>
<div>On 4/25/2024 9:52 AM, Michael
Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Here's a different take. Just food for thought and
not necessarily a suggestion. Those 1st or 2nd Gen 12V systems
were/are for me the most reliable and trouble free systems. I'd
install one and never hear back from my customer for a decade or
more. I regularly see "rats nest" wired 12V/Trace DR/UX hybrid
systems with Arco panels that still hum along. When I get asked
to update these systems, assuming that the power needs haven't
grown much, I usually keep the voltages the same (12VDC and
120VAC), sanitize the wiring, add OCPDs, Victron smart
shunt/Battery monitor, Victron CC and inverter, and Lead Acids
or AGM's. Good for another 20 years with batteries being
replaced in 10. With only a few exceptions, every ancient system
that I have tried to bring into the 21st century for my low
needs off-grid pioneers has been a flop. Inverters and Charge
controllers that take a dump after a few years, TMI with new
monitor/controllers, and lots of headaches with Lithium.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Now, if we're talking about a client who has just purchased
a property with a legacy system and wants to live like they
are still in the City, that's an entirely different
conversation.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>My own system for my full time off-grid home is 12V/120V,
and I live Fat! Tiny array (700Ws 4 hours a day), tiny hydro
(150Ws 7 months a year) 2 Rolls 21 CS-21Ps, Honda eu2000i,
12VDC Sunfrost, 12VDC device charging station, 12VDC UV water
disinfection (gravity spring water) on a 12VDC loadcenter (SQD
QO), Morningstar 300W Suresine powers an AC loadcenter for
lighting and most plugs) Magnum 2812 powers a loadcenter that
feeds bathroom and kitchen plugs. It stays off to reduce idle
consumption). I've never had a problem with this system in 15
years. If I'm not around, or my financials are weak, replacing
a piece of equipment won't hurt myself or my wife. If need be,
I can charge from a vehicle or farm equipment. And I could
pull a battery from something here on the ranch in a pinch.
The wiring/installation is clear and I made a manual so that
any decent electrician could troubleshoot and make repairs
should Todd Cory not be around :)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Again, I say all this to provoke a thought experiment. I've
installed and replaced hundreds upon hundreds of off-grid
systems from pinky dinky to millions and the ones that have
worked the best were/are either AC Hydro, old-school
(pre-Xantrex) or Schneider/Discover and the latter have had
their share of issues.</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Apr 25, 2024 at
7:34 AM Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">I had a lot of trouble keeping QO breakers
functional on a 12VDC distribution system. I'd have to move
them around every week or so to keep a good contact on the
plug in contacts. They seem to work fine on a 24VDC system.
I went to using MNPV or MNDC breakers instead in PV combiner
or other MidNite boxes. QOU breakers are fine, but I don't
know of any standard distribution box for them.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Brad Bassett</div>
<div>Application Engineer retired</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at
11:42 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Hi
Dave,</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">I
appreciate the concern. It's not one of those
situations. We have a couple of barrier islands
around here where people have set up what amounts to
little fish camps that are used infrequently. The
islands are also home to a few full-time/most-time
residents and state parks. Everyone knows everyone.
The clients are safe and reliable. These sites range
from places that people paid just tens of thousands
of dollars decades ago all the way up to
many-multi-million dollar strips of sand where very
wealthy people like to look out over Naples beach a
couple times of year from their off-grid mansions.
It's pretty interesting.</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">I
"get" why people who only take friends out a
few times a year on a fishing expedition want
a band-aid approach. There is no reason to
throw $100K at a situation like this. In this
case, I feel I can get creative to meet the
very limited 12V and 120V needs while
providing a reliable and long-lasting solution
for around $25K and pocket enough money that I
want to answer their call in the future. Right
now they are getting by with 4 x 100W
Solarland modules with a 9.6kWh battery bank
and a Honda EU2000. I'm certain they will be
blown away with the performance of whatever I
propose, and happy that it is installed in a
safe and professional manner.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">The
current distribution systems look solid, each
protected by a Square D QO breaker panel and
professionally installed. The power production
and delivery system is a total kludge that I
feel I can fix without too much risk.</div>
<br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
Jason Szumlanski
<div><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Principal
Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group</span><br style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">NABCEP
Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)</span><br style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Florida
State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956</span></div>
<div><font face="Roboto, RobotoDraft, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" color="#333333">Florida
Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208</font></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Apr 24, 2024
at 2:19 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via
RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif">
<div id="m_9118707645547497100m_-3813749024681372575m_-856033681734538122m_-1262024515197069978signature">How
about just buy an RV?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Seriously the reason Jason I am Leary is
because of the experiences I have had with what
I call Offgrid Squalor. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Just have to be careful especially these days
of druggies, people in vans with no windows, ex
paramilitary that went bad, </div>
<div>and you get the picture.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>If you know the person that is the way to
keep you and your loved ones safe. Money does
talk sometimes and the lack can of it</div>
<div>can be a warning.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Also as mentioned, these types of situations,
are what gets my accountant telling me if you do
not charge enough,</div>
<div>no one will listen to your advice.<br>
<pre> </pre>
<pre><strong><span style="font-size:small">Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
<a href="http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/" rel="noopener" target="_blank"> </a><a style="color:blue;font-size:11px;font-family:"Lucida Grande",Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-weight:400;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" href="https://offgridsolar1.com/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:12pt">https://offgridsolar1.com/</span></a><a href="http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/" rel="noopener" target="_blank"> </a>
e-mail <a href="mailto:offgridsolar@sti.net" target="_blank">offgridsolar@sti.net</a>
text 209 813 0060</span></strong></pre>
</div>
<p><br>
</p>
<p id="m_9118707645547497100m_-3813749024681372575m_-856033681734538122m_-1262024515197069978reply-intro">On
2024-04-24 10:51 am, John Blittersdorf via
RE-wrenches wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding:0px 0.4em;border-left:2px solid rgb(16,16,255);margin:0px">
<div id="m_9118707645547497100m_-3813749024681372575m_-856033681734538122m_-1262024515197069978replybody1">
<div dir="ltr">Jason,
<div> Just using the converter works fine.
They are considered a battery charger or a
regulated power supply. I am
currently running that way now with the
battery cables going nowhere. I was
thinking of putting the battery back in
the system just for triple redundancy when
my inverter hits low battery cutoff
voltage on a cold winter night and no fuel
for the generator (or it won't start).</div>
<div>My Iota DLS puts out a regulated 13.4
volts up to 30 amps. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>John</div>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at
8:25 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches
<<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
wrote:</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Ah ha! I didn't consider
using a small 12V battery with a
charger. I was thinking of just
using a 120V -> 12V converter to
handle the DC loads. Is the 12V
battery really necessary, or can I
just power the DC loads directly
with a converter? If I just have
lights and fans on the DC system,
the load should be pretty minimal. </div>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </div>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">I could use a separate
12V battery, but I would like to
eliminate that cost and complexity
if possible.</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </div>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </div>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">And yeah, I am not
considering this a money making
opportunity. It's really just a
challenge to ward off boredom from
the daily grind.</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr"><br>
Jason Szumlanski
<div><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Principal
Solar Designer | Florida
Solar Design Group</span><br style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">NABCEP
Certified Solar Professional
(PVIP)</span><br style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Florida
State Certified Solar
Contractor CVC56956</span></div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Florida
Certified Electrical
Contractor EC13013208</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at
8:01 AM John Blittersdorf via
RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
wrote:</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">Jason,
<div> I have a customer with the
same situation except he already
has a 12 V VFX inverter, He has
a sunfrost fridge and other
small loads with a very fancy
custom control board</div>
<div>originally set up to handle
AC and DC systems. We are
adding a lot more solar and I
was considering a dual battery
system but the owner didn't like
that idea. We are going with
and Iota 12v power supply (i use
one at my house for my sunfrost)
to power up all his DC loads and
will be adding a large 48 V
battery bank and over 4Kw of
solar using a VFXR3648 directly
in place of the 12V inverter.
He complained that the existing
inverter would not handle all
his current AC loads very well.
My own house is fully wired for
12VDC as well as AC (lots of #10
copper not being used) and I
have been considering getting a
small LFP 12V battery to put
back on by DC System. Then use
the Iota as a secondary charging
method with some of my large
stash of older modules hooked up
for 12V direct with C40 charge
controller to recreate my
original system just for kicks.
I'm only using DC for my
Sunfrost and one "emergency
light" in the livingroom right
now. For your customer, a small
LFP 12v battery (approximately
$500 or less) to replace his old
battery bankm and more larger
ones for the new AC side with
48V inverter fed by his
generator or through an Iota 48
V charger ifusing a smaller non
charging inverter. Unlike Dave,
I like these challenges. Maybe
thats why I never seem to make
money.!!</div>
<div> </div>
<div>John Blittersdorf</div>
<div><a href="http://offgridvermont.com" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">offgridvermont.com</a></div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">On Wed, Apr 24,
2024 at 7:22 AM Jason Szumlanski
via RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
wrote:</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Fortunately, the owner is
pretty handy and is
willing to live with any
negative consequences.
That said, I want to offer
him something as simple
and bulletproof as
possible. I am walking
into this with eyes wide
open, for sure.</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr"><br>
Jason Szumlanski
<div><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Principal
Solar Designer |
Florida Solar
Design Group</span><br style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">NABCEP
Certified Solar
Professional
(PVIP)</span><br style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Florida
State Certified
Solar Contractor
CVC56956</span></div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">Florida
Certified
Electrical
Contractor
EC13013208</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">On Tue, Apr
23, 2024 at 5:47 PM Dave
Angelini Offgrid Solar via
RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
wrote:</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif">
<div id="m_9118707645547497100m_-3813749024681372575m_-856033681734538122m_-1262024515197069978v1m_-3632450004042004009m_-1254246739971541766m_-8723228507450447887m_4357205162707039899m_-6943205250108927316signature">
<pre><span style="font-size:12pt">Not being helpful but I walk away from these. It will come back to you.</span> </pre>
<pre><strong><span style="font-size:small">Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
<a href="http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"> </a><a style="color:blue;font-size:11px;font-family:"Lucida Grande",Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-weight:400;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" href="https://offgridsolar1.com/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:12pt">https://offgridsolar1.com/</span></a><a href="http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"> </a>
e-mail <a href="mailto:offgridsolar@sti.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">offgridsolar@sti.net</a>
text 209 813 0060</span></strong></pre>
</div>
<p><br>
</p>
<p id="m_9118707645547497100m_-3813749024681372575m_-856033681734538122m_-1262024515197069978v1m_-3632450004042004009m_-1254246739971541766m_-8723228507450447887m_4357205162707039899m_-6943205250108927316reply-intro">On
2024-04-23 2:40 pm,
Jason Szumlanski via
RE-wrenches wrote:</p>
<blockquote style="padding:0px 0.4em;border-left:2px solid rgb(16,16,255);margin:0px">
<div id="m_9118707645547497100m_-3813749024681372575m_-856033681734538122m_-1262024515197069978v1m_-3632450004042004009m_-1254246739971541766m_-8723228507450447887m_4357205162707039899m_-6943205250108927316replybody1">
<div dir="auto">I
have an off-grid
client who is
working on
replacing old
equipment at a
cabin. He has a
lot of 12 volt
distribution in
the house for
lighting, fans,
and a 12 volt
refrigerator. He
also has 120 volt
AC loads that run
through a separate
distribution panel
where the only
source is a 2000
Watt Honda
generator. There
is no inverter
present. The
batteries are
charged through a
Trace C40.
<div dir="auto"> </div>
<div dir="auto">He
currently has a
few ancient
solar panels and
a struggling
Bank of AGM
batteries. It's
time for an
upgrade. I can
easily supply
enough PV power
for what he
needs. He
currently has a
9 kilowatt hour
battery capacity
that he was
happy with when
the batteries
operated
optimally.
Nonetheless, I
would probably
future-proof him
with a 10 to 15
kilowatt hour
LiPo to double
or triple his
usable capacity.<br>
<div dir="auto"> </div>
<div dir="auto">For
convenience,
obviously it
would be nice
to have an
inverter to
eliminate or
reduce the
generator
requirement.
But he seems
committed to
keeping his 12
volt
distribution
because it
would be
costly to
replace
fixtures. I
think he would
consider
replacing the
12 volt
refrigerator
if he has an
inverter. </div>
<div dir="auto"> </div>
<div dir="auto">He
definitely
wants LiPo
batteries. </div>
<div dir="auto"> </div>
<div dir="auto">I
don't like the
idea of 12
volt direct
from a battery
plus
connecting an
inverter to
that same
battery. It is
going to be
hard to
measure and
monitor
things. </div>
<div dir="auto"> </div>
<div dir="auto">I
am thinking
about using a
48 volt
battery with a
single phase
120 volt
inverter,
getting him to
change to a
120 volt
refrigerator,
and using a DC
converter to
give him
somewhere in
the range of
100 amps at 12
volts for his
existing DC
lighting and
fan loads. Is
this a bad
idea? Should I
stick with a
12 volt
battery
system? He
does have a
tiny 12 volt
pressure pump
which might be
an issue for
the converter.
I'm not sure.
I am a bit
worried about
the efficiency
loss and
capacity of DC
converters and
not sure how
to size it.</div>
<div dir="auto"> </div>
<div dir="auto">Jason
Szumlanski </div>
<div dir="auto">Florida
Solar Design
Group </div>
<div dir="auto"> </div>
<div dir="auto"> </div>
<div dir="auto"> </div>
<div dir="auto"> </div>
<div dir="auto"> </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div style="margin:0px;padding:0px;font-family:monospace">_______________________________________________<br>
List sponsored by
Redwood Alliance<br>
<br>
Pay optional member
dues here: <a href="http://re-wrenches.org" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">http://re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
Change listserver
email address &
settings:<br>
<a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
There are two list
archives for
searching. When one
doesn't work, try
the other:<br>
<a href="https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
List rules &
etiquette:<br>
<a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br>
<br>
Check out or update
participant bios:<br>
<a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
List sponsored by Redwood
Alliance<br>
<br>
Pay optional member dues
here: <a href="http://re-wrenches.org" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">http://re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
Change listserver email
address & settings:<br>
<a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
There are two list
archives for searching.
When one doesn't work, try
the other:<br>
<a href="https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
List rules &
etiquette:<br>
<a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br>
<br>
Check out or update
participant bios:<br>
<a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
List sponsored by Redwood
Alliance<br>
<br>
Pay optional member dues here: <a href="http://re-wrenches.org" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">http://re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
Change listserver email address
& settings:<br>
<a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
There are two list archives for
searching. When one doesn't
work, try the other:<br>
<a href="https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
List rules & etiquette:<br>
<a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br>
<br>
Check out or update participant
bios:<br>
<a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance<br>
<br>
Pay optional member dues here: <a href="http://re-wrenches.org" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">http://re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
Change listserver email address
& settings:<br>
<a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
There are two list archives for
searching. When one doesn't work,
try the other:<br>
<a href="https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
List rules & etiquette:<br>
<a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br>
<br>
Check out or update participant
bios:<br>
<a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance<br>
<br>
Pay optional member dues here: <a href="http://re-wrenches.org" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">http://re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
Change listserver email address &
settings:<br>
<a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
There are two list archives for searching.
When one doesn't work, try the other:<br>
<a href="https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
List rules & etiquette:<br>
<a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br>
<br>
Check out or update participant bios:<br>
<a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div style="margin:0px;padding:0px;font-family:monospace">_______________________________________________<br>
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance<br>
<br>
Pay optional member dues here: <a href="http://re-wrenches.org" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">http://re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
Change listserver email address &
settings:<br>
<a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
There are two list archives for searching.
When one doesn't work, try the other:<br>
<a href="https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
List rules & etiquette:<br>
<a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br>
<br>
Check out or update participant bios:<br>
<a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance<br>
<br>
Pay optional member dues here: <a href="http://re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
Change listserver email address & settings:<br>
<a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
There are two list archives for searching. When one
doesn't work, try the other:<br>
<a href="https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
List rules & etiquette:<br>
<a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br>
<br>
Check out or update participant bios:<br>
<a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance<br>
<br>
Pay optional member dues here: <a href="http://re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
Change listserver email address & settings:<br>
<a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
There are two list archives for searching. When one
doesn't work, try the other:<br>
<a href="https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
List rules & etiquette:<br>
<a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br>
<br>
Check out or update participant bios:<br>
<a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance<br>
<br>
Pay optional member dues here: <a href="http://re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
Change listserver email address & settings:<br>
<a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't
work, try the other:<br>
<a href="https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
List rules & etiquette:<br>
<a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br>
<br>
Check out or update participant bios:<br>
<a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
<span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<p style="margin:0px;font:18px Helvetica;min-height:22px"><span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0px;font:18px Helvetica">Michael Morningstar </p>
<p style="margin:0px;font:18px Helvetica"><br>
</p>
<p style="margin:0px;font:18px Helvetica">Morningstar Electric
Inc</p>
<p style="margin:0px;font:18px Helvetica">PO Box 1494</p>
<p style="margin:0px;font:18px Helvetica">Mount Shasta, CA
96067</p>
<p style="margin:0px;font:18px Helvetica">530-921-0560</p>
<p style="margin:0px;font:18px Helvetica">CSLB 1116835</p>
<p style="margin:0px;font:18px Helvetica"><a href="mailto:mjmorningstar@gmail.com" target="_blank">mjmorningstar@gmail.com</a></p>
<p style="margin:0px;font:18px Helvetica"><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
<pre>_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
Pay optional member dues here: <a href="http://re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">http://re-wrenches.org</a>
List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
Change listserver email address & settings:
<a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a>
There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
<a href="https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/" target="_blank">https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/</a>
<a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a>
List rules & etiquette:
<a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm" target="_blank">http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a>
Check out or update participant bios:
<a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">http://www.members.re-wrenches.org</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance<br>
<br>
Pay optional member dues here: <a href="http://re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
Change listserver email address & settings:<br>
<a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:<br>
<a href="https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
List rules & etiquette:<br>
<a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br>
<br>
Check out or update participant bios:<br>
<a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr">
<p style="margin:0px;font:18px Helvetica;min-height:22px"><span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0px;font:18px Helvetica">Michael Morningstar </p><p style="margin:0px;font:18px Helvetica"><br></p><p style="margin:0px;font:18px Helvetica">Morningstar Electric Inc</p><p style="margin:0px;font:18px Helvetica">PO Box 1494</p><p style="margin:0px;font:18px Helvetica">Mount Shasta, CA 96067</p><p style="margin:0px;font:18px Helvetica">530-921-0560</p><p style="margin:0px;font:18px Helvetica">CSLB 1116835</p><p style="margin:0px;font:18px Helvetica"><a href="mailto:mjmorningstar@gmail.com" target="_blank">mjmorningstar@gmail.com</a></p><p style="margin:0px;font:18px Helvetica"><br></p></div></div>