<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">I'm with Ray on this.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">The only thing I will add is that insurers are _weasels_ and will try to get out of anything. You cannot *rely* on insurance for anything. It is inherently unreliable. I think of it as additional risk mitigation beyond what you already do in your course of work to mitigate risk, but there are no guarantees. Consider the assets you are protecting and take reasonable measures. You simply can't insure against every calamity.</div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><br>Jason Szumlanski<div><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group</span><br style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)</span><br style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956</span></div><div><font color="#333333" face="Roboto, RobotoDraft, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208</font></div></div></div></div><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Mar 12, 2024 at 1:27 AM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><u></u>
<div>
<p>Something else to consider for us small operators: LLC and
incorporation offer some protection as well. If your company is
sued, and then declares bankruptcy, there's not going to be much
for the other party's attorneys to go after. I've heard it
described by my attorney, that most attorneys won't even take the
case when they hear the defendant is uninsured. When you are
insured, they will sue for exactly what the insurance covers +
your liquid assets. They don't want your old truck and tools.<br>
</p>
<p>Everything we do, (especially driving) has risk. We have to
decide on a job per job basis whether that risk is acceptable for
the amount of money we're charging. Bigger, more complicated jobs
= more risk, therefore more insurance is probably warranted. Some
projects require so much insurance that you can't even do the
job. I worked on some pipeline projects that increased the
required insurance to $20 million at a cost of almost $100k/
year. We don't do that work anymore.</p>
<p>This is also why I don't have a bunch of kids running around in
trucks making mistakes every day; too much liability. I closely
supervise everything that my company takes responsibility for, and
I sleep well at night with my standard contractor's liability
insurance. </p>
<p>Remember, insurance agents primary goal is to sell more
insurance. Of course they want you to have an E&O policy,
too.<br>
</p>
<p>Ray Walters<br>
Remote Solar <br>
</p>
<div>On 3/11/2024 7:41 PM, Howie Michaelson
via RE-wrenches wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">William, et al,<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">As always, a thorough
explanation of your considered opinion. Thanks.</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Food for thought and a
question to others who have more insight to the world of
insurance and liability than I:</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">My understanding of
General Liability insurance, is that it is intended to cover
mistakes in the physical work process - that is things like
frying a piece of electronics due to faulty installation
practices, dropping a hammer onto the pet cat, leaving an
exposed conductor that one of the toddlers in the house
stumbles upon and decides to see how it tastes, hanging the
inverter on a sheetrock wall using toggle anchors, or one of a
million mistakes possible during or after the installation.
On the other hand, if I design an 10kW inverter to backfeed
through an outlet (or more likely a conductor that
inadvertently undersized for the distance it is running), or I
design something that is compliant with the 2020 code cycle,
but unbeknownst to me the jurisdiction I am working in adopted
2023 last week, and the design later is found at fault in a
fire that burned the house down, General Liability does not
cover me. That is when an E&O policy would come into play
and cover my ass. THis is what a previous insurance agent
informed me of after being insured through them for 15 years
without an E&O policy (thank you very much). If this is
true, then it doesn't seem like it matters whether you or
someone else does the work, if it is your design that is being
used. Without an E&O policy, you potentially own any
design errors for the life of the system. I wasn't sure if you
were saying that you are comfortable taking on that liability
because you have enough faith in your design work, or if your
impression is that if you do the installation work, a general
liability policy will cover any problems. I would understand
the former (although I don't think I would be willing to
accept that liability unless perhaps the cost of the policy
was prohibitively expensive). If my understanding of these
policies is not accurate, then I would love to hear a correct
interpretation of what they do and don't cover.</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br clear="all">
</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">Howie Michaelson<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Sun Catcher<br>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at
8:02 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">Dave:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">I
have thought about this dilemma pretty carefully in
the past. I have come up with a line of logic that
works for me. I will try to keep the explanation
short but there is some nuance to it that might take
some ‘splaning.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">As
a licensed electrical contractor it is my
responsibility to design the systems I install, with
certain exceptions. I don’t know if this is the
correct term, but I call it design/build. My
exposure is covered and my requirements are met if I
have a general liability policy and the required
bonding any contractor would. Coverage for errors
and omissions is not required.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">If
the scope of the project is complicated beyond some
level then the services of a PE will be required and
a wet-stamped plan may be needed, or at least
sensible to provide. The client or the building
department may require this added service.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">The
level of complexity at which external, licensed
design services are needed is subjective. Most
electricians don’t need a PE to draw up a new or
replacement service or the details of configuring
branch circuits, to name a few examples. The
requirements can be deduced from the particulars of
the project and the language of the NEC. If the
contractor is inexperienced, then more design help
is needed. If the contractor is more experienced,
then more complex projects can be designed
in-house. I decide for myself if I am qualified to
do the design work, or not.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">Before
a bid is prepared some level of design needs to be
accomplished in order to define the scope of the
project, specify the materials and predict the labor
required. My preference is to design the heck out
of any job so I don’t get any unpleasant, expensive
surprises once the project commences. I don’t do
this level of design work for free. There is always
a work order for design time. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">However
I do not always get the contract to perform the
physical work. The bid price may be too high or the
project may not go forward for any number of
reasons.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">Unless
there is some proprietary information in the design,
once the customer pays my design fee the customer
owns that design and is entitled to deliverables in
the form of drawings, calculations, bill of
materials, etc. If I hand over those documents but
do not install the work, I am essentially working
design only, not design/build. However because the
intent was to design a project I would build, I
don’t worry about that detail. I assume no
liability for any part of the project unless I am
hired to build it. I have no control over what the
client does with the design information once I turn
it over.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">Under
this logic I am pretty comfortable providing
occasional design-only services as long as I could
demonstrate, if asked, that I was operating in good
faith on a design/build project. This intent can be
satisfied by the language of the work order,
specifying the client will provide an opportunity
for you to bid on the work in hopes of winning the
contract.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">This
approach might work for you or at least give you
something to think about. Not everyone is willing
to take the same risks. Sorry about all of the
words. I could not explain this approach any more
concisely.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">William</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">Miller
Solar</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">17395
Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">805-438-5600</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"><a href="http://www.millersolar.com/" target="_blank"><span style="color:blue">www.millersolar.com</span></a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">CA
Lic. 773985</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,"sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,"sans-serif"">
RE-wrenches [mailto:<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, March 10, 2024 3:23 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Dave Tedeyan<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [RE-wrenches] Insurance for solar
design and inspections</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi All, </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I have an insurance question
and am very curious about how others deal with
this, or don't. People will sometimes ask us to
either do some design work for a system that we
will not be installing, or to inspect a system and
give my professional opinion about it. These are
two separate work situations. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Recently, our insurance agent
brought it to our attention that we should have
insurance specifically for these kinds of work,
and it is not something that is covered under our
general liability (contractors) insurance. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Their recommendation for design
work is to get "professional liability" (errors
and omissions) insurance. Even though I may do one
or two designs a year, we are looking at a roughly
$12,000 policy. This would be meant to cover us if
I make a mistake in the design that leads to some
sort of failure or fire.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Their recommendation for the
inspection type work is to get essentially a home
inspector insurance policy for about $2400 per
year. Again, this is something that we do a
handful of times per year. This insurance is meant
to cover us if I inspect a system and miss
something that then ends up being a problem or a
hazard. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">With a brief conversation with
a lawyer acquaintance, he thought that I may be
fine with out these insurances. It sounded like I
should have something in my service contracts that
would essentially say something like "we will do
this work to the best of our ability", and then if
something does go wrong and the homeowner takes us
to court, it is upon them to prove that we missed
something that a reasonable person would have
caught. My business manager does not like this
because we could still have lots of lawyer fees
and have to show up in court if we were to get
sued, even if the problem was not caused by a lack
of diligence on our part.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">So my question to all of you
is, do you have these insurances? Or do you just
not do designs and inspections unless you are
actually turning some wrenches on the site so that
your general liability insurance covers your work?
Or, is this a case of our insurance agent putting
ungrounded fears in our head?</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks for your thoughts.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Cheers,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dave</p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>-- </span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<table style="width:393.75pt;border-collapse:collapse" width="919" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td rowspan="2" style="width:93.75pt;border-width:medium 1pt medium medium;border-style:none solid none none;border-color:currentcolor rgb(236,189,0) currentcolor currentcolor;padding:0in 7.5pt 0in 0in" width="219" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,"sans-serif";color:rgb(68,68,68)"><a href="https://www.sungineersolar.com/" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(51,122,183);text-decoration:none"><img id="m_-5590675766925846500m_-725754206752636477_x0000_i1025" src="https://sungineersolar.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/Logo-Image-Only-1.png" alt="Logo" width="105" border="0"></span></a></span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:0in 0in 0in 7.5pt">
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<tbody>
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<td style="width:300pt;padding:0in 0in 3.75pt 7.5pt" width="700" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial,"sans-serif";color:rgb(236,189,0)">Dave
Tedeyan, P.E.<br>
Owner | Sungineer
Solar</span></b><span style="font-family:Arial,"sans-serif""></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="padding:3.75pt 0in 3.75pt 7.5pt" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:12.75pt"><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,"sans-serif";color:rgb(236,189,0)">p: </span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,"sans-serif";color:black">he
| him | his</span><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,"sans-serif";color:rgb(236,189,0)"><br>
a: </span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,"sans-serif";color:black">1653
Slaterville Rd.</span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,"sans-serif""> <span style="color:black">| Ithaca,
NY 14850</span><br>
<b><span style="color:rgb(236,189,0)">w:</span></b><a href="http://www.sungineersolar.com/" target="_blank"><span style="color:black"> www.sungineersolar.com</span></a><br>
<b><span style="color:rgb(236,189,0)">c:</span></b><span style="color:black"> (607)
270-0370</span></span></p>
</td>
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</tbody>
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