<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">I'm with Ray on this.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">The only thing I will add is that insurers are _weasels_ and will try to get out of anything. You cannot *rely* on insurance for anything. It is inherently unreliable. I think of it as additional risk mitigation beyond what you already do in your course of work to mitigate risk, but there are no guarantees. Consider the assets you are protecting and take reasonable measures. You simply can't insure against every calamity.</div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><br>Jason Szumlanski<div><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group</span><br style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)</span><br style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956</span></div><div><font color="#333333" face="Roboto, RobotoDraft, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208</font></div></div></div></div><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Mar 12, 2024 at 1:27 AM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><u></u>

  
    
  
  <div>
    <p>Something else to consider for us small operators:  LLC and
      incorporation offer some protection as well.  If your company is
      sued, and then declares bankruptcy, there's not going to be much
      for the other party's attorneys to go after.  I've heard it
      described by my attorney, that most attorneys won't even take the
      case when they hear the defendant is uninsured.  When you are
      insured, they will sue for exactly what the insurance covers +
      your liquid assets.  They don't want your old truck and tools.<br>
    </p>
    <p>Everything we do, (especially driving) has risk.  We have to
      decide on a job per job basis whether that risk is acceptable for
      the amount of money we're charging.  Bigger, more complicated jobs
      = more risk, therefore more insurance is probably warranted.  Some
      projects require so much insurance that you can't even do the
      job.  I worked on some pipeline projects that increased the
      required insurance to $20 million at a cost of almost $100k/
      year.  We don't do that work anymore.</p>
    <p>This is also why I don't have a bunch of kids running around in
      trucks making mistakes every day; too much liability.  I closely
      supervise everything that my company takes responsibility for, and
      I sleep well at night with my standard contractor's liability
      insurance. </p>
    <p>Remember, insurance agents primary goal is to sell more
      insurance.  Of course they want you to have an E&O policy,
      too.<br>
    </p>
    <p>Ray Walters<br>
      Remote Solar  <br>
    </p>
    <div>On 3/11/2024 7:41 PM, Howie Michaelson
      via RE-wrenches wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">William, et al,<br>
        </div>
        <div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">As always, a thorough
          explanation of your considered opinion. Thanks.</div>
        <div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Food for thought and a
          question to others who have more insight to the world of
          insurance and liability than I:</div>
        <div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">My understanding of
          General Liability insurance, is that it is intended to cover
          mistakes in the physical work process - that is things like
          frying a piece of electronics due to faulty installation
          practices, dropping a hammer onto the pet cat, leaving an
          exposed conductor that one of the toddlers in the house
          stumbles upon and decides to see how it tastes, hanging the
          inverter on a sheetrock wall using toggle anchors, or one of a
          million mistakes possible during or after the installation. 
          On the other hand, if I design an 10kW inverter to backfeed
          through an outlet (or more likely a conductor that
          inadvertently undersized for the distance it is running), or I
          design something that is compliant with the 2020 code cycle,
          but unbeknownst to me the jurisdiction I am working in adopted
          2023 last week, and the design later is found at fault in a
          fire that burned the house down, General Liability does not
          cover me.  That is when an E&O policy would come into play
          and cover my ass. THis is what a previous insurance agent
          informed me of after being insured through them for 15 years
          without an E&O policy (thank you very much). If this is
          true, then it doesn't seem like it matters whether you or
          someone else does the work, if it is your design that is being
          used. Without an E&O policy, you potentially own any
          design errors for the life of the system. I wasn't sure if you
          were saying that you are comfortable taking on that liability
          because you have enough faith in your design work, or if your
          impression is that if you do the installation work, a general
          liability policy will cover any problems.  I would understand
          the former (although I don't think I would be willing to
          accept that liability unless perhaps the cost of the policy
          was prohibitively expensive). If my understanding of these
          policies is not accurate, then I would love to hear a correct
          interpretation of what they do and don't cover.</div>
        <div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br clear="all">
        </div>
        <div>
          <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">
            <div dir="ltr">Howie Michaelson<br>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
        <div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Sun Catcher<br>
        </div>
        <br>
      </div>
      <br>
      <div class="gmail_quote">
        <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at
          8:02 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
          wrote:<br>
        </div>
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
          <div>
            <div lang="EN-US">
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">Dave:</span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">I
                    have thought about this dilemma pretty carefully in
                    the past.  I have come up with a line of logic that
                    works for me.  I will try to keep the explanation
                    short but there is some nuance to it that might take
                    some ‘splaning.</span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">As
                    a licensed electrical contractor it is my
                    responsibility to design the systems I install, with
                    certain exceptions.  I don’t know if this is the
                    correct term, but I call it design/build.  My
                    exposure is covered and my requirements are met if I
                    have a general liability policy and the required
                    bonding any contractor would.  Coverage for errors
                    and omissions is not required.</span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">If
                    the scope of the project is complicated beyond some
                    level then the services of a PE will be required and
                    a wet-stamped plan may be needed, or at least
                    sensible to provide.  The client or the building
                    department may require this added service.</span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">The
                    level of complexity at which external, licensed
                    design services are needed is subjective.  Most
                    electricians don’t need a PE to draw up a new or
                    replacement service or the details of configuring
                    branch circuits, to name a few examples.  The
                    requirements can be deduced from the particulars of
                    the project and the language of the NEC.  If the
                    contractor is inexperienced, then more design help
                    is needed.  If the contractor is more experienced,
                    then more complex projects can be designed
                    in-house.  I decide for myself if I am qualified to
                    do the design work, or not.</span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">Before
                    a bid is prepared some level of design needs to be
                    accomplished in order to define the scope of the
                    project, specify the materials and predict the labor
                    required.  My preference is to design the heck out
                    of any job so I don’t get any unpleasant, expensive
                    surprises once the project commences.  I don’t do
                    this level of design work for free.  There is always
                    a work order for design time.  </span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">However
                    I do not always get the contract to perform the
                    physical work.  The bid price may be too high or the
                    project may not go forward for any number of
                    reasons.</span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">Unless
                    there is some proprietary information in the design,
                    once the customer pays my design fee the customer
                    owns that design and is entitled to deliverables in
                    the form of drawings, calculations, bill of
                    materials, etc.  If I hand over those documents but
                    do not install the work, I am essentially working
                    design only, not design/build.  However because the
                    intent was to design a project I would build, I
                    don’t worry about that detail.  I assume no
                    liability for any part of the project unless I am
                    hired to build it.  I have no control over what the
                    client does with the design information once I turn
                    it over.</span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">Under
                    this logic I am pretty comfortable providing
                    occasional design-only services as long as I could
                    demonstrate, if asked, that I was operating in good
                    faith on a design/build project.  This intent can be
                    satisfied by the language of the work order,
                    specifying the client will provide an opportunity
                    for you to bid on the work in hopes of winning the
                    contract.</span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">This
                    approach might work for you or at least give you
                    something to think about.  Not everyone is willing
                    to take the same risks.  Sorry about all of the
                    words.  I could not explain this approach any more
                    concisely.</span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">William</span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">Miller
                    Solar</span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">17395
                    Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422</span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">805-438-5600</span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"><a href="http://www.millersolar.com/" target="_blank"><span style="color:blue">www.millersolar.com</span></a></span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">CA
                    Lic. 773985</span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,"sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,"sans-serif"">
                    RE-wrenches [mailto:<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]
                    <b>On Behalf Of </b>Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches<br>
                    <b>Sent:</b> Sunday, March 10, 2024 3:23 PM<br>
                    <b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br>
                    <b>Cc:</b> Dave Tedeyan<br>
                    <b>Subject:</b> [RE-wrenches] Insurance for solar
                    design and inspections</span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal">Hi All, </p>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">I have an insurance question
                      and am very curious about how others deal with
                      this, or don't. People will sometimes ask us to
                      either do some design work for a system that we
                      will not be installing, or to inspect a system and
                      give my professional opinion about it. These are
                      two separate work situations. </p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">Recently, our insurance agent
                      brought it to our attention that we should have
                      insurance specifically for these kinds of work,
                      and it is not something that is covered under our
                      general liability (contractors) insurance. </p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">Their recommendation for design
                      work is to get "professional liability" (errors
                      and omissions) insurance. Even though I may do one
                      or two designs a year, we are looking at a roughly
                      $12,000 policy. This would be meant to cover us if
                      I make a mistake in the design that leads to some
                      sort of failure or fire.</p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">Their recommendation for the
                      inspection type work is to get essentially a home
                      inspector insurance policy for about $2400 per
                      year. Again, this is something that we do a
                      handful of times per year. This insurance is meant
                      to cover us if I inspect a system and miss
                      something that then ends up being a problem or a
                      hazard. </p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">With a brief conversation with
                      a lawyer acquaintance, he thought that I may be
                      fine with out these insurances. It sounded like I
                      should have something in my service contracts that
                      would essentially say something like "we will do
                      this work to the best of our ability", and then if
                      something does go wrong and the homeowner takes us
                      to court, it is upon them to prove that we missed
                      something that a reasonable person would have
                      caught. My business manager does not like this
                      because we could still have lots of lawyer fees
                      and have to show up in court if we were to get
                      sued, even if the problem was not caused by a lack
                      of diligence on our part.</p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">So my question to all of you
                      is, do you have these insurances? Or do you just
                      not do designs and inspections unless you are
                      actually turning some wrenches on the site so that
                      your general liability insurance covers your work?
                      Or, is this a case of our insurance agent putting
                      ungrounded fears in our head?</p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">Thanks for your thoughts.</p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">Cheers,</p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">Dave</p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
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                                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,"sans-serif";color:rgb(68,68,68)"><a href="https://www.sungineersolar.com/" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(51,122,183);text-decoration:none"><img id="m_-5590675766925846500m_-725754206752636477_x0000_i1025" src="https://sungineersolar.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/Logo-Image-Only-1.png" alt="Logo" width="105" border="0"></span></a></span></p>
                                  </td>
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                                            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial,"sans-serif";color:rgb(236,189,0)">Dave
                                                  Tedeyan, P.E.<br>
                                                  Owner | Sungineer
                                                  Solar</span></b><span style="font-family:Arial,"sans-serif""></span></p>
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                                            <p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:12.75pt"><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,"sans-serif";color:rgb(236,189,0)">p: </span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,"sans-serif";color:black">he
                                                | him | his</span><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,"sans-serif";color:rgb(236,189,0)"><br>
                                                  a: </span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,"sans-serif";color:black">1653
                                                Slaterville Rd.</span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,"sans-serif""> <span style="color:black">| Ithaca,
                                                  NY 14850</span><br>
                                                <b><span style="color:rgb(236,189,0)">w:</span></b><a href="http://www.sungineersolar.com/" target="_blank"><span style="color:black"> www.sungineersolar.com</span></a><br>
                                                <b><span style="color:rgb(236,189,0)">c:</span></b><span style="color:black"> (607)
                                                  270-0370</span></span></p>
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