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<p>Hi Howie,</p>
<p> I've continued to install EG4 LL V2 batteries for clients, I
originally purchased a bank of EG4 V1's for my own system to
experiment with before recommending them to clients, I quickly
ended up with 7 clients with them and all the installs are
performing without issues, these are all OFF GRID without comms
between the battery and inverter, I'm keeping them above freezing
with insulated battery box's and heating pads when necessary,
Cooling may be more of an issue in some outdoor shed installs
because of summer heat in central N.M. <br>
</p>
<p> One thing that came up that had me concerned was Signature solar
Techs started recommending 3 or 4 deep discharge cycles, down to
20% SOC when commissioning the batteries, this was so that the BMS
could learn what the normal operating range would be for the
battery as to prevent early low voltage shut down events, I
thought this was going to be too burdensome for off grid clients
or for me, a few clients didn't mind doing that commissioning
recommendation but most haven't done it and there hasn't been any
issues.</p>
<p> The EG4 LL V2 has a ten year prorated warranty, it has UL
ratings, it has fire suppression pads in them that will melt down
on top of the battery at high temps if they are mounted in a flat
orientation, I have a few clients with the EG4 rack cabinet but
most are mounted face up in the original insulated L16 or Surrette
industrial cell battery box's, Signature solar has said this
orientation will not void the warranty or effect operation of the
battery.</p>
<p> Carl Hansen</p>
<p> Hansen&Sun Electric 505 470-0770<br>
</p>
<p> <br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2024-02-18 10:34 AM, Howie
Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAHMeMs=0RrQ77aDvMbBMcAVBfOf0-soYtx3+tFooqjukaLN0qw@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"
class="gmail_default">All, <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"
class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"
class="gmail_default">Thanks for the thoughts and feedback
about EG4 and Lithium in general. I'm disappointed to see the
overall negative feedback about EG4, but not overly surprised.
I was hoping to hear from folks who previously had decent
things to say about them (E.G. Peter Giroux, Carl Hansen)
would chime in with updated reviews. I have been seduced into
using relatively new products that promised to improve upon
"sliced bread" before, only to more times than not, end up
fruI'strated with wasted time and reputation. <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"
class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"
class="gmail_default">For our work in VT, LiFePO4 batteries,
so far, are enough of an improvement over lead acid
(particularly for Off-Grid), that if the client is willing to
spend the money, I encourage them to go that route. There are
certainly plenty of on going issues with many of these
relatively new products, some larger headaches than I'm happy
about. On balance however, my calculus leans heavily toward
advantage Lithium. We can make work-arounds for most of the
immediate problems, and their documentable efficiency and low
maintenance (along with fewer holes in my clothes) win the
argument for me. </div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"
class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"
class="gmail_default">I have yet to see a BMS failure, but I'm
sure I'll have the chance to solve that problem. I'm also
annoyed that the inverter sales teams have chosen to market
the new hybrid inverters as compatible with Lead-Acid, because
as has been noted, as they currently are configured, Lead-Acid
management has been a mostly a slipshod afterthought. There
are several other areas they will need to focus before I would
deem the ready-for-prime-time. However, as best I can tell,
there is intense competition for market share right now, so if
enough of the installer base pushes for these necessary
changes, they will do there best to accommodate us.</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"
class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"
class="gmail_default">The areas I see needing significant
improvements:</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"
class="gmail_default">
<ul>
<li>Rock solid BMS and and battery-inverter communication
(standard industry wide protocols?)<br>
</li>
<li>True Lead-Acid programming capabilities</li>
<li>More finesse with the AGS controls</li>
</ul>
<div>And, again, if anyone has recent positive reports about
EG4 equipment, I'd be happy to hear about them on or off
list.<br>
</div>
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"
class="gmail_default">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br clear="all">
</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"
data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">Howie Michaelson</div>
<div>Sun Catcher<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Feb 17, 2024 at
1:16 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <<a
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div class="msg-7017801314807952450">
<div lang="EN-US">
<div class="m_-7017801314807952450WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">Drake:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">I
prefer the UnigyII VRLA batteries. Full river 2
volt L-16s are pretty good and they allow one string
configuration in larger AH settings.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">I
agree that as features grow so does complexity.
However there is no substitute for good remote
monitoring and control. I can understand much
better the operation of systems with easy access to
historic data and I save a butt-load of driving. I
wish the Outback and Sunny Island files could be
obtained remotely for better analysis.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">William</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">Miller
Solar</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">17395
Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">805-438-5600</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"><a
href="http://www.millersolar.com/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:blue">www.millersolar.com</span></a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">CA
Lic. 773985</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<div>
<div
style="border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;border-color:rgb(181,196,223) currentcolor currentcolor;padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
RE-wrenches [mailto:<a
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Drake Chamberlin via
RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, February 17, 2024 9:43 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a
href="mailto:drake.chamberlin@redwoodalliance.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">drake.chamberlin@redwoodalliance.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">I fully
agree that off grid solar has taken a major
downturn. Once the equipment became software based,
the reliability dropped. Sure, there are nice
features available with these cyber enhanced
systems, but the cost in reliability makes being
energy independent off the grid hard to accomplish.
</span><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">There are
good reports on Samlex products. Has anyone tried
their new 120/240 split phase units? Are they
stack-able yet? </span><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">As far as
batteries go, I'm pretty much in the Lead Head club,
especially for off grid. That being said, lead acid
batteries, especially AGMs have gotten really
expensive and it seems the quality isn't what it
used to be. </span><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">What is
the best AGM battery these days? </span><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Thanks,</span><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Drake </span><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<div id="m_-7017801314807952450signature">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">---</span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New""> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p id="m_-7017801314807952450reply-intro"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">On
2024-02-16 17:02, Michael Morningstar via
RE-wrenches wrote:</span></p>
<blockquote
style="border-width:medium medium medium 1.5pt;border-style:none none none solid;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(16,16,255);padding:0in 0in 0in 5pt;margin-left:0in;margin-right:0in">
<div id="m_-7017801314807952450replybody1">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">We
gave EG4 and Signature another chance after
promises from their dealer oriented support
department that we could expect better service
from them. We had an EG4 BMS crap out a couple
months ago after only a few months. Lots and
lots of communications with Signature and we
still don't have a BMS or replacement battery.
It's been a shit show with them. I think we
are going to remove them and install 3rd party
BMS's and find some use for them. Maybe donate
them. We've only had luck with
Schneider/Discover pairings in closed loop. A
large system we did with Sol-Arks never really
worked in Closed loop, despite Discover coming
to the site. Most likely it's a Sol-Ark issue,
but we've reached Sol-Arks technical expertise
limits. Even with Schneider/AES, there have
been some issues that are causing me to
re-consider Li for offgrid. I just had a
conversation this morning with a long time
off-grid pro and he said the same thing. It
used to be, we'd install a wet lead acid bank
and then ten years would pass before hearing
from the client when it was time for another
bank. Sometimes fifteen years. Our call backs
with systems over the last ten years, first
with a decline in equipment quality and then
the switch to Li are costing us too much money
and causing a lot of heartburn for our
clients. Rant Over</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">On
Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 12:57 PM Howie
Michaelson via RE-wrenches <<a
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
wrote:</span></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;border-style:none none none solid;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Hi
All,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">I've
searched the archives for info
pertaining to EG4 inverters and
batteries. The comments have been
mostly positive. I have stayed away
from EG4 until now in part, for the
reason the Michael Morningstar
suggested last June - that is, they
seemed very oriented to the DIY market
and not real serious contenders in the
lasting marketplace. However, I was at
RE+ Boston this week and was quite
surprised to see that the EG4 18k
inverter is, for all I could tell,
identical to the Fortress Envy 12k, in
both physical layout as well as menu
structure. I have very limited
experience with the Envy (having just
installed my 1st one last week, in
order to compare it to the Sol-Ark
15). I don't have any thoughts about
it yet, except that the font on the
screen is quite small and the opening
screen is not as intuitive as the
Sol-Ark, but that might just take
familiarizing myself more to the Envy
(and/or the EG4).</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">My
question is, for folks who have had
either the Envy or the EG4 inverters
installed for a decent period of time,
what is your current take on their
functionality, durability, and for the
EG4, the quality of support? Also,
what experience have folks had
similarly with the EG4 LLI batteries?
I'm not unhappy with the Sol-Ark or in
general the Fortress eVault Max
battery, but there are some attractive
things about the Envy and potentially
the EG4 18k, and the price point and
seemingly smart configuration of the
EG4 LLI batteries are certainly
eye-catching. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">I'm
also currently starting to lean toward
using Lithium batteries and inverters
from the same manufacturer, as I'm
growing weary of the mismatching
firmware updates that are causing
somewhat frequent issues between the 2
components. Although the
inverter/battery integrated units
(i.e. Sonen, Tesla, etc.) don't seem
ideal, since the market is so volatile
at the moment. If one component fails,
I'd like the option to replace it with
a different brand without having to
replace the other component as well.
Using the same manu doesn't
necessarily cut down the problems, but
it certainly will help in the
troubleshooting process by hopefully
having less of the "not my problem" or
"we haven't seen that problem"
responses from tech support. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">I
really don't like making forays into
bleeding-edge technologies, so I'm
hoping to gain some experienced
insight. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Thanks,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Howie
Michaelson</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Sun
Catcher</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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<p
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<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span
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Box 1494</span></p>
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Shasta, CA 96067</span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
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There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
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<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a>
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